[Article] Legacy Orzhov: the Taxman Cometh - Brian Demars

[pandaman]

An interesting take on modifying Death & Taxes by StarCityGames writer Brian Demars. I usually expect Vintage content from him, but was pleasantly surprised by his latest article on splashing Black in Death & Taxes to up its power level and provide it with more versatility and staying power.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28069_Legacy-Orzhov-The-Taxman-Cometh.html

Discuss.

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[pandaman]

Personally, I am interested in what people think is the optimal Turn 1 play in particular matchups, given that the deck has a plethora of options in Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, and Thoughtseize (even Swords to Plowshares if you're on the draw and they play a creature).

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[Megadeus]

Too bad these articles are always like a month behind. I know a few people that have been trying out Black and Taxes, or Deathrite and Taxes for awhile now

[uncletiggy]

Isnt that pretty much standard issue some little guy starts innovating, then someone respected picks up the idea and ends up getting recognised for it, not just in magic but life in general. There has been some discussion about black taxes on here before I recommended calling it obama care not sure who piloted it but they finished well to spark the conversation.

[nedleeds]

Sure. It's nothing new, people have been playing W/x vial decks for a long time. The white vial decks are behooved to their top deck so Bob was a natural inclusion. Having no on the play things to do vs. combo (besides tutor or play Mom to protect a hate bear from bounce) leads you to play discard. The downside is obvious, you mana base is weaker. You might argue that stock white DnT alrady has so many wasteland targets that a few Scrublands doesn't hamper you against point destruction, I think that's a fair argument.

I played 3-4 Scullers because vial on 2 and Sculler is ... like ... insane. Nicely written article, but nothing that will rip the format apart.

[DLifshitz]

Isnt that pretty much standard issue some little guy starts innovating, then someone respected picks up the idea and ends up getting recognised for it, not just in magic but life in general. There has been some discussion about black taxes on here before I recommended calling it obama care not sure who piloted it but they finished well to spark the conversation.

BW Vial decks have been around for a few years, see e.g.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/20957_Drinking-from-the-Deadguy-Ale---Making-Top-8-of-SCG-Legacy-Open--Kansas-City.html

Brian Demars' list is not all that different. But I expect playing no basic Swamps, 8 lands that don't tap for coloured mana, and relatively few fetchlands to fuel DRS makes for a fragile manabase.

[Richard Cheese]

Sure. It's nothing new, people have been playing W/x vial decks for a long time. The white vial decks are behooved to their top deck so Bob was a natural inclusion. Having no on the play things to do vs. combo (besides tutor or play Mom to protect a hate bear from bounce) leads you to play discard. The downside is obvious, you mana base is weaker. You might argue that stock white DnT alrady has so many wasteland targets that a few Scrublands doesn't hamper you against point destruction, I think that's a fair argument.

I played 3-4 Scullers because vial on 2 and Sculler is ... like ... insane. Nicely written article, but nothing that will rip the format apart.

Agreed 100%. Splashing Black fixes the deck's two main weaknesses: card draw and combo. Personally I dropped all the Mangara/Flickerwisp stuff, and therefore most of the Karaki, manabase feels pretty solid and still has plenty of basics.

[nedleeds]

True. As your number of legends decline you could remove some Karakii. Though Karakas is so good now even if you don't have any tricks to use on your own legends I might still play 3. Maybe less ports to help the colored mana situation.

Sculler is just too good with Vial not to run. He's also really, really good with turn one point discard on the play as it's rare your opponent will have 2 plays, or 2 removal. He is both a clock and a Thoughtseize which is great. With Vial on 2 he can do all kinds of insane things ... ever respond to a miracled Terminus with a Vialed in Sculler? Taste. My. ___. Responding to a Show and Tell with Flash Sculler can be sauce as well. His drawback is being an artifact dude, and his mana cost is a little awkward. I think the article is pushing Spirit of the Labyrinth a little hard. I'd ask most combo or miracle players what's the more irritating bear. SotL doesn't impede top too badly, it also makes their Cliques a stone fucking baseball bat to your head if they hit you with the trigger.


BW Vial decks have been around for a few years, see e.g.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/20957_Drinking-from-the-Deadguy-Ale---Making-Top-8-of-SCG-Legacy-Open--Kansas-City.html

Brian Demars' list is not all that different. But I expect playing no basic Swamps, 8 lands that don't tap for coloured mana, and relatively few fetchlands to fuel DRS makes for a fragile manabase.

And on Eternal Central

http://www.eternalcentral.com/fighting-the-blues-an-enchanting-story/

[Richard Cheese]

Well there's little to no Show and Tell in our meta, so I haven't missed Karakas at all so far. I could see dropping one of each basic for a couple more if it was rampant though...and if I owned more than one. Agreed on Sculler over SoL. Even without Vial he's great because he's never a dead draw like late-game discard is, but he can still provide you with that utility early. I might still try a couple spirits, but it would probably go in the Revoker spots, since I seem to be coming up against a lot of RUG and BUG lately.

[Megadeus]

All of this dead guy talk really makes me want to play it

[TsumiBand]

Yeah this looks fun as hell.

I get that Emrakul cannot be allowed to stick, but is Karakas really that amazing that it gets in as a 2-of? Are there 'bounce Thalia' tricks that I'm undervaluing because the deck isn't really as tricksy as D&T?

[nedleeds]

All of this dead guy talk really makes me want to play it

All this makes me want to put it together. Take pictures of it. And post it in the pimp thread.

[Richard Cheese]

Yeah this looks fun as hell.

I get that Emrakul cannot be allowed to stick, but is Karakas really that amazing that it gets in as a 2-of? Are there 'bounce Thalia' tricks that I'm undervaluing because the deck isn't really as tricksy as D&T?

To me, not really. I run O. Rings in the board since you lose the ability to deal with random permanents as well as Mangara does, and just hope that those combined with Mana denial and hand disruption are enough to get there. I can't really say if it is, since I haven't run up against the deck since I built the deck.

[Megadeus]

All this makes me want to put it together. Take pictures of it. And post it in the pimp thread.

And then let me play it and punt my way to top 8

[Dzra]

Agreed 100%. Splashing Black fixes the deck's two main weaknesses: card draw and combo. Personally I dropped all the Mangara/Flickerwisp stuff, and therefore most of the Karaki, manabase feels pretty solid and still has plenty of basics.

The main problem I encountered when messing with the Black splash was that you have to cut a lot of your fliers to fit in the value bears like Bob and Tidehollow. You're a whole lot more disruptive and gain a lot of game against Combo/Control, but cutting Flickerwhisps, Avengers, and Mindscensors really sets you back against ground walls Tarmogoyfs and True-Name Nemesis.

[Technics]

One thing that I have been consistent about is that if ridiculous cards (Brainstorm in Legacy and Bazaar of Baghdad in Vintage for example) are going to be legal as "build around me' cards in Eternal formats that Wizards ought to print better efficient and playable cards that are good against these types of strategies.

Spirit of the Labyrinth (or Rest in Peace in Vintage) is one of those cards, and it makes me very happy to own cardboard copies of this little dream come true. So today I am not complaining about old policies but applauding a fantastic new printing and looking forward to unlocking and experiencing new possibilities in Legacy!



Nothing gives me more pleasure than absolutely stomping an opponent who enjoys dredging Golgari Grave-Troll. It's a maniacal personal preference, but when I'm playing Eternal formats, I want those young men and women who think it's fun to play with Stinkweed Imp and Narcomoeba to reevaluate their lives after they're done playing a match against me.



Graveyard decks are powerful, and it doesn't cost a ton to gain a lot of percentage against them by using a significant chunk of one's sideboard.

"Doesn't cost"
"significant chunk"



Was really unimpressed with this article. He basically said "play my list because I irrationally hate certian cards, and built a deck only to beat the stuffing out of these cards, and it happens to be decent against like 2 other decks, but ignore what this gives up".

[MoxBropal]

I can't imagine running this without the full four of Scullers and Avengers. The Avengers are such a great clock, and race TNN as well.

[Tylert]

I haven't read the article (can't at work), but seeing dead guy's ale results lately, I don't see how splashing black could bring better results than playing the Mono-white list.
I remember an event where we saw another guy splashing black (with a deck tech also) and he ended up doing very poorly.

[Finn]

God, please send a burning bush or something to these Starcitygames guys.

I have seen a few articles touting Spirit of the Labyrinth come out of that place now. The speculation that this card would signal the Death of Blue TM has proven to be largely wrong, and somehow nobody who has a pen or microphone over in Richmond got the memo. The card is bonkers when you are living the dream and occasionally makes a difference in some lesser way. But it is usually a Blade of the Sixth Pride. In other words, the other card that you took it out for is usually the better choice. It is not that it is obvious why this happens - you have to actually test a good bit and understand the blue decks to figure it out. But, ya know. Article. Research. There should be a burden of truth or something here.

They had Andrew Shrout in their booth with his D+T deck coming right out and saying that his inclusion of four Spirits was an experiment last month. Go Andrew for giving it a try. The guys over at Salvation were basically holding their breath because they hoped, but doubted it would end well for him. Well, it did not. Ditto across the board. You have to wonder if D+T's recent slide is due to TNN and TNN hate (probably) or just a lot of people whose access to information starts at SCG. Anecdotally, David Bauman's second place offering on Sunday had a grand total of zero in his 75.

I get that it is shiny and new. I get that advice from us forum rats is not sought out by guys whose name I recognize. I also get that it clearly should be. Research, boys. Either test it yourself or ask those who have. The news of this is too old for such drivel.

Speaking of old news. Diluting D+T with a black splash is a fine idea. Congratulations. You are person number 4072 to think of it. It has been discussed to death on dozens of threads for years. It has its strengths and weaknesses. Every change you make pulls a brick from the prison wall. Again, research.

[Richard Cheese]

The main problem I encountered when messing with the Black splash was that you have to cut a lot of your fliers to fit in the value bears like Bob and Tidehollow. You're a whole lot more disruptive and gain a lot of game against Combo/Control, but cutting Flickerwhisps, Avengers, and Mindscensors really sets you back against ground walls Tarmogoyfs and True-Name Nemesis.

I run Mirran Crusader and SoFi. I think you could make the case for Avenger over Crusader, but I like the built-in Decay/Goyf protection and the sheer amount of stupid things you can do with equipment + double strike.

[ubernostrum]

I run Mirran Crusader and SoFi. I think you could make the case for Avenger over Crusader, but I like the built-in Decay/Goyf protection and the sheer amount of stupid things you can do with equipment + double strike.

A couple years ago, in a very different meta (I ran into three Natural Order decks in a row, beating all of them), I played a B/W Vial + hatebears build to X-2/18th at an Open. Decay didn't exist yet, but the early versions of Maverick were starting to be a thing, and combined with Tarmogoyf + decks that wanted to Order out Progenitus made me pick Crusader over Avenger.

Today I suspect I'd lean more toward Avenger; double-triggering your Equipment is always nice, of course, but flying over things seems more important currently.

Also, as noted above, the build-your-own-Clique aspect of Vial/Sculler is very definitely a thing, and was one of my main motivations for keeping Vial in the deck instead of going straight Deadguy with Bitterblossoms, as some folks were doing at the time.

More recently, before I started focusing heavily on Miracles about four months ago, I found myself trimming back the black to essentially just a splash; I went from the full playset of Bob down to 3 and then 2, and started moving a couple Scullers to the board, to have a better mix of generic hatebears in the main. Probably should've just dropped Vial, though, because I feel like that's the card that's really starting to underperform -- there just aren't enough instant-speed shenanigans (not even Spirit of the Labyrinth, really -- I've found it's best as bait to draw removal and let you stick the thing that actually wrecks their game plan) I want to be doing to justify it.

[Megadeus]

Personally, I am interested in what people think is the optimal Turn 1 play in particular matchups, given that the deck has a plethora of options in Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, and Thoughtseize (even Swords to Plowshares if you're on the draw and they play a creature).

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To answer this question, on the play, I probably lead with DRS if I have a fetch land in order to maximize my turn 2, if no fetch then Mom. On the draw it would very much depend on my opponents opening play. If he is fetch, go, I Probably would drop Vial since it is a bit slow to get ready but my opponent hasn't done anything to advance the board yet so I figure that I have time. If he plays a DRS, I probably STP it if I have it, if not I would play TS. If he goes delver, I probably would go for DRS in order to attempt to not get tempo'd out by bad mana. If they go for a vial, I may attempt to TS that turn just because it will be dead quite fast with a vial out. If they play Top, I probably would cast Vial as it is one of the best ways to beat countermagic from CB decks.

Feel free anyone to tell me I am wrong in my assumptions. These are just my thought processes.

[Richard Cheese]

Turn 1 I usually play what's in hand. If there's a choice, I'll lean towards discard against any unknown opponent or tempo decks, since I want Vial or Mom to stick. Against combo obviously discard is top priority, failing that I go for Mom over vial because ideally I'm dropping Thalia or Sculler T2.

@ubernostrum: I wouldn't cut Vial. The point isn't so much instant-speed shenanigans as it is making your Ports and Wastes one-sided. Dropping guys EOT is also nice, just gives them less chance to respond with things like Jace, Sorceries.