[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Turboninja]

My bolding.

Is this really true?
I am not a rules expert, but I did not consider Loam to be the "target" of any effect when dredgeing. Therefore I would assume that Ground Seal doesn't interact with Loam at all.
Anyone with more insight may feel free to explain to me exactly how this work, if it works. Thanks.

Upon casting, Lftl requires up to three target lands. Ground Seal stops that.

[Grizzly_Bear]

Upon casting, Lftl requires up to three target lands. Ground Seal stops that.

Haha, that's amazing. I guess I didn't see the forest because of all the trees standing in the way =)

[fapsik]

Hey guys,

I usually do not play Canadian T, but I am a big fan of it and read your site all the time :-) sometimes I even dare to play it ;)

Anyway, I have a question: how is it that Winter Orb is fading away? Even against post-top Miracles it can be good - or not? Maybe Kolaghan's Command makes it bad against Czech Pile and that is why it is gone.

Thanks for you expertizes ;)

[davide]

Hey guys,

I usually do not play Canadian T, but I am a big fan of it and read your site all the time :-) sometimes I even dare to play it ;)

Anyway, I have a question: how is it that Winter Orb is fading away? Even against post-top Miracles it can be good - or not? Maybe Kolaghan's Command makes it bad against Czech Pile and that is why it is gone.

Thanks for you expertizes ;)

i used to play winter orb, usually two copies, i think that it's still pretty good against control decks like miracle, blade and other random decks. As u said i never use winter orb against kolaghan's command decks, like grisix control or czech pile

[rlesko]

They both get bopped by swords, this is not really an important consideration.

Hmm, I have to disagree with this.

They both get answered by Swords, but one nukes your graveyard, and the other does not.

I'm not interested in nuking my graveyard when my best card vs swords to plowshares requires threshold.

[kombatkiwi]

Hmm, I have to disagree with this.

They both get answered by Swords, but one nukes your graveyard, and the other does not.

I'm not interested in nuking my graveyard when my best card vs swords to plowshares requires threshold.

If by Swords to Plowshares you mean 'any spot removal that kills Mandrills' (which in legacy is mostly STP I suppose) then this does make sense.
If your Mandrills dies then you need to follow up with another threat, and if the only available threat is Mongoose then you might not have threshold anymore

[Turboninja]

How do you feel about Counterspell as a card to play against control decks?

Seems good to counter their payoff cards, and generally giving you more late game power. I might try to replace something for it.

[bl4ckwell]

How do you feel about Counterspell as a card to play against control decks?

Seems good to counter their payoff cards, and generally giving you more late game power. I might try to replace something for it.


I was wondering this as well. I haven't played legacy in about 3 months. (Between work, and finding a decent legacy LGS near staten island, NY) But anyway, I find one of biggest issues is not being having a hard counter for a large creature threat mid - late game. I was actually trying counterspell as mainboard, but it was frequently unnecessary Game 1. I think it would be a great SB in this deck, but people with way more experience and skill in this deck advise against it.


My meta is not that large, The decks I seem to play often are DnT, Elves, Eldrazi, BUG Delver. On rare occasion Grixis Delver.

My current build is:

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

I know I should probably mainboard a Seal of fire, for both removal and tarmogoyf, I just don't like that it doesn't flip Delver. I find spell snare to be the MVP in a lot of games. I did try the Hooting mandrills route, I did find the lack of synergy with mongoose to be problematic. Fatal push is not hard to deal with, nor do I see it being played that often. As for mainboarding a TNN. I would love to, but I feel 3 CMC is high for this deck, and it can just be sideboarded in with library against control.


So I digress, does counterspell belong in this deck? I feel its one of those cards that so simple, good, but overlooked.

[kombatkiwi]

I was wondering this as well. I haven't played legacy in about 3 months. (Between work, and finding a decent legacy LGS near staten island, NY) But anyway, I find one of biggest issues is not being having a hard counter for a large creature threat mid - late game. I was actually trying counterspell as mainboard, but it was frequently unnecessary Game 1. I think it would be a great SB in this deck, but people with way more experience and skill in this deck advise against it.


So I digress, does counterspell belong in this deck? I feel its one of those cards that so simple, good, but overlooked.

Post 2474 in this thread (only a few pages back) Sean Brown liked the 1 SB counterspell in the list that he played.

I played this card maindeck for quite a while and I think that it's just too clunky, especially in Wasteland mirrors. If you want 1 generic card to 'smooth' your selection of spells then I like 1 preordain.
In the SB I don't think it's a horrendous choice either but I feel that I would rather pick a card that was better against more targeted matchups

For example my SB in my most recent events was
1 Barb Ring
1 Loam
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb
1 Honden
3 Reb/Pyro
1 Spell Pierce

(4 Goyf 2 Seal 2 Snare 1 Pierce 1 Preordain main)

My main problem with this config (apart from thinking that maybe the Winter Orb is unnecessary / could be better as something else) was that I thought that 3 REB was too many because I didn't have enough interaction against nonblue combo/prison decks. My immediate reaction was therefore to cut 1 Red Blast for 1 more Spell Pierce.

It would be a comparable choice to play 1 Counterspell and 1 Pierce SB instead of this 2 Pierce, which makes your combo matchups slightly worse and your 'long game' matchups slightly better. I think this is perfectly reasonable but with the rest of the setup I have, I feel that am more afraid of fast Reanimate, Blood Moons etc than lategame control decks or decks where I need to counter creature spells.

[rlesko]

If by Swords to Plowshares you mean 'any spot removal that kills Mandrills' (which in legacy is mostly STP I suppose) then this does make sense.
If your Mandrills dies then you need to follow up with another threat, and if the only available threat is Mongoose then you might not have threshold anymore

Let me clarify. I believe your original comment was in regards to Goyf vs Monkey.

Both get exiled by swords to plowshares. But, our best card vs swords to plowshares is Nimble Mongoose. If you play Monkey + Goose, I believe this is the worst configuration of creatures to fight Swords to Plowshare decks.

Obviously it is the best configuration vs fatal push.




Post 2474 in this thread (only a few pages back) Sean Brown liked the 1 SB counterspell in the list that he played.

I played this card maindeck for quite a while and I think that it's just too clunky, especially in Wasteland mirrors. If you want 1 generic card to 'smooth' your selection of spells then I like 1 preordain.
In the SB I don't think it's a horrendous choice either but I feel that I would rather pick a card that was better against more targeted matchups

For example my SB in my most recent events was
1 Barb Ring
1 Loam
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb
1 Honden
3 Reb/Pyro
1 Spell Pierce

(4 Goyf 2 Seal 2 Snare 1 Pierce 1 Preordain main)

My main problem with this config (apart from thinking that maybe the Winter Orb is unnecessary / could be better as something else) was that I thought that 3 REB was too many because I didn't have enough interaction against nonblue combo/prison decks. My immediate reaction was therefore to cut 1 Red Blast for 1 more Spell Pierce.

It would be a comparable choice to play 1 Counterspell and 1 Pierce SB instead of this 2 Pierce, which makes your combo matchups slightly worse and your 'long game' matchups slightly better. I think this is perfectly reasonable but with the rest of the setup I have, I feel that am more afraid of fast Reanimate, Blood Moons etc than lategame control decks or decks where I need to counter creature spells.

I agree that in a non miracle dominated world, 3 blasts is too many.

When you are worried about fast reanimates, fast blood moons, etc, REB is just silly. I also only play 2 REBs (well, pyroblasts, but yea) and additional copy of spell pierce in my sideboard.

[bl4ckwell]

I agree that in a non miracle dominated world, 3 blasts is too many.

When you are worried about fast reanimates, fast blood moons, etc, REB is just silly. I also only play 2 REBs (well, pyroblasts, but yea) and additional copy of spell pierce in my sideboard.

At this point I am doing a 2/1 split of grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction, do you think it would be better to drop 1 REB, and do a 2/2 grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction split?

The reason I personally play 3x REB/Pyro it is great to have hard counters for snapcasters and TNN which are very common and problematic. REB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.

Maybe im over thinking it. Thanks in advance for any advice.

[rlesko]

At this point I am doing a 2/1 split of grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction, do you think it would be better to drop 1 REB, and do a 2/2 grafdiggers cage/Surgical extraction split?

The reason I personally play 3x REB/Pyro it is great to have hard counters for snapcasters and TNN which are very common and problematic. REB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.

Maybe im over thinking it. Thanks in advance for any advice.

If this is your SB
Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

3x REB is a lot!!

What is the purpose of the Spell Snare?

I think you are very heavy in grave hate. I run 2x Surgical, 1 Cage.

What is the purpose of Dead // Gone?

[kombatkiwi]

If this is your SB
Sideboard (15)
3x REB
1x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
2x graffdiggers cage
1x surgical extraction
1x ground seal
2x ancient grudge
1x slyvan library
1x sulfur elemental
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

3x REB is a lot!!

What is the purpose of the Spell Snare?

I think you are very heavy in grave hate. I run 2x Surgical, 1 Cage.

What is the purpose of Dead // Gone?

Dead // Gone is an anti-MaritLage card (Turbo Depths is not a favourable matchup)
For example in my SB I would seriously consider cutting the Forked Bolt for Dead/Gone but this makes the Elves and DNT matchups worse
I agree that REB is good vs TNN and Snapcaster, but you cite UB Reanimator and I think the RB version is much more popular at the moment and spell pierce is still good against both.

Also it depends on your maindeck
If you already like 2 pierce main then maybe you only need 1 pierce or 1 flusterstorm SB and you can afford to play more REB instead (REB is also the best card vs the 4x Strix decks)

[bl4ckwell]

Dead // Gone is an anti-MaritLage card (Turbo Depths is not a favourable matchup)
For example in my SB I would seriously consider cutting the Forked Bolt for Dead/Gone but this makes the Elves and DNT matchups worse
I agree that REB is good vs TNN and Snapcaster, but you cite UB Reanimator and I think the RB version is much more popular at the moment and spell pierce is still good against both.

Also it depends on your maindeck
If you already like 2 pierce main then maybe you only need 1 pierce or 1 flusterstorm SB and you can afford to play more REB instead (REB is also the best card vs the 4x Strix decks)

This is my current build, the only changes to the main that am considering is dropping 1x spell pierce for 1x preordain, and/or dropping 1x dismember for 1x seal of fire. I just do not like that seal of fire doesn't flip delver, but its does grow goyf.

My current build is:

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand




I will explain my sideboard logic, I am very open to suggestions.


Sideboard (15)

3x REB - A lot of blue targets as previously mentioned - TNN, snapcaster, strix, even opposing Delvers in a pinch. Hard counters are underestimated in my opinion. This card (or pyroblast) I believe is a huge SB advantage over the BuG Canadian lists.

1x spell snare - MVP card, but to play 3 mainboard is risky - great against Grixis, DnT, Stoneblade, even BUG Delver that's play hymns. Hard counter for RIP.

1x flusterstorm - Storm, extra counter in mirror when boarding out a couple FoW's.

2x graffdiggers cage - Obviously B/R and U/B reanimator, Dredge, but also my most hated matchup, elves

1x surgical extraction - Multiple really uses for this card, its free. Against reanimator its great, but also in a lot of matchups its great, such as wasteland a certain dual and take them off a color.

1x ground seal - graveyard protection against DRS, keeps goyf bulky, very important against Eldrazi and Angler decks. Shuts down opposing snapcaster trigger.

2x ancient grudge - Artifact removal that can be used twice. Kills artifact creatures as well.

1x slyvan library - Grindy control matchups when opponent doesn't have a fast clock. I have even used against reanimator, paying 12 life to have card advantage to keep griselbrand off the board.

1x sulfur elemental - DnT

1x dismember - I think 2x dismember mainboard is too much, but this deck needs answers for anglers and Eldrazi's.

1x dead/gone - Yes, as you mentioned great against MaritLage/Turbo Depths. But also good as a 7th removal against a variety of decks. Dead kills many weenie creatures, elves, Thalia, Mother of Runes, DRS, opposing delvers, Young pyromancer, etc. Gone is great for bouncing back that big delve creature that they just exiled 5-6 cards from there graveyard to cast, and now they cant recast it. Also good against eldrazi.

1x TNN - My least favorite card in SB, but when playing against a deck with a ton of white removal and graveyard hate keeping your goyf small and your mongoose without threshold, you need this card.

Once again, im very open to suggestions. Thank everyone for all your input and help.

[Turboninja]

1x spell snare - MVP card, but to play 3 mainboard is risky - great against Grixis, DnT, Stoneblade, even BUG Delver that's play hymns. Hard counter for RIP.



I do not like bringing Spell Snare in against Grixis. They have 2-3 Pyros and a SB Edict. What else is there?

[bl4ckwell]

I do not like bringing Spell Snare in against Grixis. They have 2-3 Pyros and a SB Edict. What else is there?
That's fair, although I have played against a few that ran 1-2 snapcaster.

[rlesko]

Dead // Gone is an anti-MaritLage card (Turbo Depths is not a favourable matchup)
For example in my SB I would seriously consider cutting the Forked Bolt for Dead/Gone but this makes the Elves and DNT matchups worse
I agree that REB is good vs TNN and Snapcaster, but you cite UB Reanimator and I think the RB version is much more popular at the moment and spell pierce is still good against both.

Also it depends on your maindeck
If you already like 2 pierce main then maybe you only need 1 pierce or 1 flusterstorm SB and you can afford to play more REB instead (REB is also the best card vs the 4x Strix decks)

I would not think a 3 mana unsummon is something I would actively board in against lands. I could understand running the Dead // Gone in the main deck as you can either kill a deathrite or unsummon a gurmag (with some upside to hit a fatty) etc. But reliably getting to 3 mana against Lands is something I am not sure I would count on. Vapor Snag / Seal of Removal are both options if you seek that effect.

With 2 Snare and 2 REB I already have 4 hard counters at the ready for strix / snap. Even stifle can stop snapcaster, usually can then ignore the 2/1 body. And then for TNN I just daze those things, getting to 3 mana against our deck should be difficult. And then also REB / force of will if daze is not an option.


This is my current build, the only changes to the main that am considering is dropping 1x spell pierce for 1x preordain, and/or dropping 1x dismember for 1x seal of fire. I just do not like that seal of fire doesn't flip delver, but its does grow goyf.

My current build is:

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
3x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1x dismember

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand




I will explain my sideboard logic, I am very open to suggestions.


Sideboard (15)

3x REB - A lot of blue targets as previously mentioned - TNN, snapcaster, strix, even opposing Delvers in a pinch. Hard counters are underestimated in my opinion. This card (or pyroblast) I believe is a huge SB advantage over the BuG Canadian lists.

1x spell snare - MVP card, but to play 3 mainboard is risky - great against Grixis, DnT, Stoneblade, even BUG Delver that's play hymns. Hard counter for RIP.

1x flusterstorm - Storm, extra counter in mirror when boarding out a couple FoW's.

2x graffdiggers cage - Obviously B/R and U/B reanimator, Dredge, but also my most hated matchup, elves

1x surgical extraction - Multiple really uses for this card, its free. Against reanimator its great, but also in a lot of matchups its great, such as wasteland a certain dual and take them off a color.

1x ground seal - graveyard protection against DRS, keeps goyf bulky, very important against Eldrazi and Angler decks. Shuts down opposing snapcaster trigger.

2x ancient grudge - Artifact removal that can be used twice. Kills artifact creatures as well.

1x slyvan library - Grindy control matchups when opponent doesn't have a fast clock. I have even used against reanimator, paying 12 life to have card advantage to keep griselbrand off the board.

1x sulfur elemental - DnT

1x dismember - I think 2x dismember mainboard is too much, but this deck needs answers for anglers and Eldrazi's.

1x dead/gone - Yes, as you mentioned great against MaritLage/Turbo Depths. But also good as a 7th removal against a variety of decks. Dead kills many weenie creatures, elves, Thalia, Mother of Runes, DRS, opposing delvers, Young pyromancer, etc. Gone is great for bouncing back that big delve creature that they just exiled 5-6 cards from there graveyard to cast, and now they cant recast it. Also good against eldrazi.

1x TNN - My least favorite card in SB, but when playing against a deck with a ton of white removal and graveyard hate keeping your goyf small and your mongoose without threshold, you need this card.

Once again, im very open to suggestions. Thank everyone for all your input and help.

If you feel good about the number of cards you have to fight various decks, I'm not going to change your sideboard, because play style is very important when deciding what cards you should run.

What I would ask for example - Do you find that you bring in a lot of impactful cards for most matchups? Or that you have a lot of marginal upgrades?

When I say this I mean...you have 3 REBs, 1 snare, 1 fluster, 2 Grafdiggers, 1 Surgical, 1 Ground Seal, a lot of anti combo cards there. You arguably want all of these against UB reanimator and storm for example (Except the Ground Seal vs storm). Bringing in 8/9 cards for those match ups is overkill IMO, you can easily beat both with 6-7 cards.

[bl4ckwell]

I would not think a 3 mana unsummon is something I would actively board in against lands. I could understand running the Dead // Gone in the main deck as you can either kill a deathrite or unsummon a gurmag (with some upside to hit a fatty) etc. But reliably getting to 3 mana against Lands is something I am not sure I would count on. Vapor Snag / Seal of Removal are both options if you seek that effect.

With 2 Snare and 2 REB I already have 4 hard counters at the ready for strix / snap. Even stifle can stop snapcaster, usually can then ignore the 2/1 body. And then for TNN I just daze those things, getting to 3 mana against our deck should be difficult. And then also REB / force of will if daze is not an option.



If you feel good about the number of cards you have to fight various decks, I'm not going to change your sideboard, because play style is very important when deciding what cards you should run.

What I would ask for example - Do you find that you bring in a lot of impactful cards for most matchups? Or that you have a lot of marginal upgrades?

When I say this I mean...you have 3 REBs, 1 snare, 1 fluster, 2 Grafdiggers, 1 Surgical, 1 Ground Seal, a lot of anti combo cards there. You arguably want all of these against UB reanimator and storm for example (Except the Ground Seal vs storm). Bringing in 8/9 cards for those match ups is overkill IMO, you can easily beat both with 6-7 cards.

I feel my mainboard is well positioned against most fair decks. I actually feel this deck this pretty decent game 1 against most decks in general. I love this game, however time constraints and lack of legacy players in my area, means I don't play nearly as many games as I would like. I created this sideboard based on answers for the reasons I lose games or have lost games. I try to play this deck as intended, as an aggro/tempo/permission deck. However in some matchups I realize I have to be the control player.

Let me elaborate on the most common ways (or decks) I lose, or have lost to consistently, and then I think youll have a better idea of me as a player and to why my sideboard is what it is. These are NOT taking into account games I lost due to myself making stupid mistakes or decisions.

1) A griselbrand or similar ridiculous creature that resolved due to losing a counter war, or it happened turn 1.
2) Mid or late game, not having an answer for a large legitimately casted creature usually Angler/tasigur, and my goyfs being either removed, or my graveyard eaten my DRS or something, and I get out raced. Happens with Eldrazi to a lesser extent, but reality smashers and thought knot seer's suck...
3) Im sure this is an issue for all Delver decks but Chalice on 1.
4) Not having enough removal Against small creature heavy decks like elves/merfolk
5) Lands... Enough said

So those being the main ways I lose, I tried to SB to correct them. I feel my sideboard is extremely impactful against a moderate amount of decks. You mention UB reanimator. for that I would board something like:

-1 stifle
-1 tarfire
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare

+1 flusterstorm
+1 surgical
+2 grafdiggers cage
+1 sylvan library

So I have more counter magic that can hit reanimate, exhume. Surgical extraction might as well be a hard counter as I can extract their target creature for free. Grafdiggers obviously is best hate card against any reanimator deck. Sylvan library allows me to maintain card advantage to prevent their combo.


In general, my goal is to have sideboard options to go more aggressive, or be able to switch to playing permission with more countermagic and/or hate. I guess my sideboard is more geared against combo/mirror/delver decks.

I really do appreciate any advice or criticism. Sorry for long post. Thanks in advance for your time and help.

[rlesko]

Sometimes your reanimator opponent has it all...turn 1 griselbrand with daze / force back up *shrug*. Try not to let these games impact you too much. Just try to focus on playing the best magic every match.

Earlier you said this...


REB has actually been useful to me vs U/B reanimator, as a hard answer to their FoW back up for reanimate.

And then you say this


-1 stifle
-1 tarfire
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare

+1 flusterstorm
+1 surgical
+2 grafdiggers cage
+1 sylvan library

You should be bringing in REB against UB reanimator, and don't be shy about pyroblasting their ponders / brainstorms / careful studies if you have other cards like Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm at the ready. They also likely are going to board into Show and Tell.

I never liked the card Sylvan Library against combo, mostly because I never find it good to tap 2 mana at sorcery speed for something that will help you next turn but no immediate effect. Also if you pay lots of life vs storm, they can easily natural tendrils you, for example.

If I was sideboarding with your deck, I would do the following against UB reanimator

-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Dismember
-1 Tarfire
-4 Lightning Bolt

+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+3 REB

I only ever lose to reanimator when I can't interact with them (Hence cutting bolts and a creature). Also, it is slightly weird to have Surgical and Ground Seal. Spell Snare is good vs Reanimator BTW - they have Exhumes, possibly Animate Dead, and Collective Brutality. I would not cut them (But I wouldn't board in additional copies).

I suppose you could shave a stifle on the draw, but not something I would be keen on doing. You can stifle an Animate Dead trigger FWIW.

[kombatkiwi]

I would not think a 3 mana unsummon is something I would actively board in against lands. I could understand running the Dead // Gone in the main deck as you can either kill a deathrite or unsummon a gurmag (with some upside to hit a fatty) etc. But reliably getting to 3 mana against Lands is something I am not sure I would count on. Vapor Snag / Seal of Removal are both options if you seek that effect.


It's less for lands and more for Turbo Depths, that deck is all about making Marit Lage ASAP and unlike RG lands they have Pithing Needle for your Wasteland so it's much harder to interact with the combo. (And they aren't attacking your mana so there shouldn't be too many issues with playing a 2R spell). Having a spell that destroys Marit Lage is a huge boon (especially because in RUG colors they will often play in a way that assumes you can't beat a resolved Marit Lage) and in other matchups it's still Shock, which is fine. (If you don't think you need extra removal for other matchups then you can play Repeal or something else instead)

@bl4ckwell
I was typing out a response to this but Ryan has basically summed up what I was going to say.
I think if I had the choice against UB Reanimator of 3 Snare and 2 Reb or 3 Reb and 2 Snare I would go with the 3 Snare, but there might be a way that you can fit both. (And the Ground Seal, and maybe the Sylvan Library). In any case leaving all REB in the SB and not boarding Bolts out seems like a mistake.

[Danzan]

With 2 Snare and 2 REB I already have 4 hard counters at the ready for strix / snap. Even stifle can stop snapcaster, usually can then ignore the 2/1 body. And then for TNN I just daze those things, getting to 3 mana against our deck should be difficult. And then also REB / force of will if daze is not an option.

rlesko, could I see your most recent goyf list just now please? I'm prepping for GP Madrid and considering swapping monkeys for lhurgoyfs. Cheers.

[bl4ckwell]

@bl4ckwell
I was typing out a response to this but Ryan has basically summed up what I was going to say.
I think if I had the choice against UB Reanimator of 3 Snare and 2 Reb or 3 Reb and 2 Snare I would go with the 3 Snare, but there might be a way that you can fit both. (And the Ground Seal, and maybe the Sylvan Library). In any case leaving all REB in the SB and not boarding Bolts out seems like a mistake.


I appreciate you and @rlesko help. I you're both right about dropping the bolts for REB vs UB reanimate, that was a mistake and oversight. I have boarded them like that before, idk why I didn't think about it yesterday when I typed my novel like post lol. As for ground seal, I usually only really use it against BUG delver variants and Czech pile. In order to basically help keep threshold and goyf big against there DRS assuming I didn't have immediate removal, as well as shut down there snapcasters.

I am going get some games in this upcoming Saturday, I will reports how its goes. I am also going to experiment with playing 1x preordain and losing 1x spell pierce.

[themtgzealot]

Likely will be playing this at GP madrid - decklist a few pages back.

Debating goyf and Hooting - only because in europe there is a lot of miracles and think it may be more represented than Czech pile.

[rlesko]

rlesko, could I see your most recent goyf list just now please? I'm prepping for GP Madrid and considering swapping monkeys for lhurgoyfs. Cheers.

Unfortunately, I have not been playing very much lately. I am going to take my same list

https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17345&d=307297&f=LE

with a grafdigger's cage instead of the sylvan library to SCG Worcester this weekend. I may play something different in the Chain Lightning slot if I'm feeling spicy (Dead // Gone) interests me.

[Xod]

Ryan,

Planning to play the deck again, big love of mine, but I love to play funky stuff from time to time, so I don't keep playing the same thing.

I follow the maindeck, but I'm not sure about the 2 spots that you fill in with chain lightning and Preordain. (the dismember I'm doubting about, but it's so good against anglers and eldrazi and otherwise a one mana spot removal against other stuff.

I was planning to play 1 extra spell pierce main instead of the preordain, according to recent lists, but I get the preordain. The only 'fear' I have is that you will board it out most of the times for an extra spell pierce, what are your thoughts on this?

The chain lightning spot I was planning to fill in with Forked Bolt/Tarfire/Seal of Fire. I had the Forked Bolt first, which should be good against DnT or Elves, but the tarfire or seal can grow your goyf. But since I also wanted to play a Dead // Gone in the side, I might be able to play it main.

The grafdigger's cage I think is a good call, I'm tempting to play 2/1 cage/surgical, since cage will help me against elfs and reanimator even more, but most elves have a way to destroy the cage.

Any thoughts on Ground Seal in the side as goyf saver and anti-snap/DRS? Or any sweepers in the board like Rough // Tumble or Sudden Demise?

[Danzan]

Likely will be playing this at GP madrid - decklist a few pages back.

Debating goyf and Hooting - only because in europe there is a lot of miracles and think it may be more represented than Czech pile.

That's one of the reasons I feel like sleeving Goyf and maybe playing 1x Orb in the side. I know the matchup is favourable but shoring it up seems like an idea.

Question for those with actual experience with these cards: merits/drawbacks of playing seal of fire/tarfire over more flexible removal like dismember/forked bolt are obvious, which do you believe is better positioned?

Looking to rock this just now:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Seal of Fire
1 Tarfire
4 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island


1 Winter Orb
1 Spell Pierce
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrade
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Submerge
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library

Trying to find room for a cage in the SB, might cut 2nd fluster.

[Xod]

Any thoughts about replacing the second Ancient Grudge with an Artifact Mutation? (instead of an abrade)

Sure, Ancient Grudge is the best stuff there is, and against Chalice the AM doesn't have any extra's, but I'm thinking against DnT, Blade decks, Strix decks, ...

Drooling behind my screen here :laugh:

Was thinking to play a Gilded Drake, just for fun, but I guess a Clique is better against a lot more match up's. (Miracles, Storm, Chalice Decks, ...)

[kombatkiwi]

Artifact Mutation is a cute idea but if you kill Chalice with it you get nothing and most other matchups probably won't be threatened by a couple of 1/1s
It might be good if you expect to play against Ensnaring Bridge a lot but then the fact it can't be cast under a Blood Moon becomes a relevant drawback (and maybe the flashback is still more important)

The reasoning for my build is the following:

- Having answers to 5/5s is important because it significantly increases your win% against Anglers and Eldrazi
- Dismember is okay but the 4 life is a significant drawback in Delver mirrors and it's not very good against Smasher
- You already get to play 3-4 Tarmogoyf so it's a convenient solution to your opponent's big creatures that doesn't require you to change your deck much
- In order to make Tarmogoyf 5/6 reliably I think you need at minimum 2 pieces of off-type removal
- Seal of Fire and Tarfire are the only things up for consideration (if you really value flexibility then you could play Pyrite Spellbomb but not killing DRS on turn 1 is too big of a drawback imo)
- Tarfire flips Delver but Seal of Fire is a better removal spell and DRS can't eat it out of the graveyard. You could play a 1/1 split but it's incredibly rare that you will draw both for the double buff and 6/7 is far less important than 5/6 anyway
- Playing 2 Seal and only 3 Goyf feels like it's not maximizing the payoff of playing 2 Seal of Fire so I would rather play 4 Tarmogoyf than 3
- With 12 creatures maybe some people feel the deck is too 'clunky', I find the 1 Preordain is excellent to smooth out the draws a little more, extra Spell Pierce or Spell Snare can be underwhelming in multiples and in general in Delver mirrors if one person is cantripping and the other isn't then the player who is fixing their draws tends to come out ahead in my experience. (Also having a 5th sorcery is sometimes nice for Goyf when 4 Ponder are the only others)

I don't find myself boarding it out. You don't board out the 4th Ponder right? If you could play 5 Ponder would you board that 5th Ponder for Pierce every game? Probably not, you still have other cards that are bad in different matchups that you can cut instead.

Maybe Ground Seal could go in my Winter Orb slot, I think Seal is a good idea but I don't know that it has a big enough impact and it interacts poorly with Surgical Extraction (edit: Ryan reminded me that I think I just value Loam too much to play this)

[rlesko]

Ryan,

Planning to play the deck again, big love of mine, but I love to play funky stuff from time to time, so I don't keep playing the same thing.

I follow the maindeck, but I'm not sure about the 2 spots that you fill in with chain lightning and Preordain. (the dismember I'm doubting about, but it's so good against anglers and eldrazi and otherwise a one mana spot removal against other stuff.

I was planning to play 1 extra spell pierce main instead of the preordain, according to recent lists, but I get the preordain. The only 'fear' I have is that you will board it out most of the times for an extra spell pierce, what are your thoughts on this?

The chain lightning spot I was planning to fill in with Forked Bolt/Tarfire/Seal of Fire. I had the Forked Bolt first, which should be good against DnT or Elves, but the tarfire or seal can grow your goyf. But since I also wanted to play a Dead // Gone in the side, I might be able to play it main.

The grafdigger's cage I think is a good call, I'm tempting to play 2/1 cage/surgical, since cage will help me against elfs and reanimator even more, but most elves have a way to destroy the cage.

Any thoughts on Ground Seal in the side as goyf saver and anti-snap/DRS? Or any sweepers in the board like Rough // Tumble or Sudden Demise?

Hello!

Reasons for Chain Lightning is it kills Leo (none of the other options for that spot kill 3 toughness creatures and 2 dismember is too much life to give up I feel). The fact that it is a sorcery is usually not that much of a factor for me - most things are kill on sight anyways (deathrites, moms, stoneforges, etc). Also when you burn your opponent for 3 damage it is usually a 1 turn clock difference (1 hit from delver or goose). 2 damage doesn't change the clock most times I feel. So that is why I like 3 damage burn spell.

I think 3 spell pierce main deck is too many for game 1. I like the preordain to act as "5th ponder". When you replace the "5th ponder" with a burn spell, or another counter spell, it makes sideboarding hard. Having a card that can stay in your deck for all match ups but easily be substituted if you have a much better card is nice for me.

Remember, Grafdigger's cage does not have application against Lands / Turbo Depths, and is not functionally another "Force of Will" on the draw against reanimator.

I did test ground seal and it is great vs CP, but I feel like our deck is already favored against them anyways, and if you want to make a commitment to running ground seal, the sideboard needs to be reworked a bit (Ground Seal is a nonbo with Surgicals and Life from the Loam).

Hope you find my thoughts helpful

[rlesko]

Any thoughts about replacing the second Ancient Grudge with an Artifact Mutation? (instead of an abrade)

Sure, Ancient Grudge is the best stuff there is, and against Chalice the AM doesn't have any extra's, but I'm thinking against DnT, Blade decks, Strix decks, ...

Drooling behind my screen here :laugh:

Was thinking to play a Gilded Drake, just for fun, but I guess a Clique is better against a lot more match up's. (Miracles, Storm, Chalice Decks, ...)


Artifact Mutation is a cute idea but if you kill Chalice with it you get nothing and most other matchups probably won't be threatened by a couple of 1/1s
It might be good if you expect to play against Ensnaring Bridge a lot but then the fact it can't be cast under a Blood Moon becomes a relevant drawback (and maybe the flashback is still more important)

The reasoning for my build is the following:

- Having answers to 5/5s is important because it significantly increases your win% against Anglers and Eldrazi
- Dismember is okay but the 4 life is a significant drawback in Delver mirrors and it's not very good against Smasher
- You already get to play 3-4 Tarmogoyf so it's a convenient solution to your opponent's big creatures that doesn't require you to change your deck much
- In order to make Tarmogoyf 5/6 reliably I think you need at minimum 2 pieces of off-type removal
- Seal of Fire and Tarfire are the only things up for consideration (if you really value flexibility then you could play Pyrite Spellbomb but not killing DRS on turn 1 is too big of a drawback imo)
- Tarfire flips Delver but Seal of Fire is a better removal spell and DRS can't eat it out of the graveyard. You could play a 1/1 split but it's incredibly rare that you will draw both for the double buff and 6/7 is far less important than 5/6 anyway
- Playing 2 Seal and only 3 Goyf feels like it's not maximizing the payoff of playing 2 Seal of Fire so I would rather play 4 Tarmogoyf than 3
- With 12 creatures maybe some people feel the deck is too 'clunky', I find the 1 Preordain is excellent to smooth out the draws a little more, extra Spell Pierce or Spell Snare can be underwhelming in multiples and in general in Delver mirrors if one person is cantripping and the other isn't then the player who is fixing their draws tends to come out ahead in my experience. (Also having a 5th sorcery is sometimes nice for Goyf when 4 Ponder are the only others)

I don't find myself boarding it out. You don't board out the 4th Ponder right? If you could play 5 Ponder would you board that 5th Ponder for Pierce every game? Probably not, you still have other cards that are bad in different matchups that you can cut instead.

Maybe Ground Seal could go in my Winter Orb slot, I think Seal is a good idea but I don't know that it has a big enough impact and it interacts poorly with Surgical Extraction

I agree with Kombatkiwi on his whole post, except I don't hesitate to board out preordain if I have a high impact sideboard card.

In regards to Gilded, I find the best idea is to prevent your opponents from ever getting fat creatures into play :)

[Xod]

So I keep the preordain, and the dismember. And as last slot, I will be using the Chain Lighting with a Seal of Fire in the side. With no possible answer against the turbo Depths. (or I need to change one of them by Dead // Gone)

So do you board the seal in against CP (or even Eldrazi) to make goyf grow? Against CP it's maybe not so necessary and against Eldrazi, it's not so convenient.

Last question, do you side in the Clique against SnT and Storm? I know it can be very good, but we are already Siding in a lot in these matches.

[rlesko]

I board like

CP:
+2 REB

-1 Force / Daze
-1 Preordain ( :wink: )

Eldrazi:
-4 Nimble Mongoose
-4 Stifle

+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 TNN
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Seal of Fire

and yes, I bring in clique against all combo decks

[Xod]

I love tight sideboard plans. :smile:

I'll work on the rest of my SB plans, and if I'm not sure about something I'll ask.

Maybe on Sunday on the stream: https://www.twitch.tv/magic_masters_mol
(on Saturday I will be commenting on the Modern stream)

[Turboninja]

Here is the latest version of my list, two days before SCG Worcester.

RUG 50 (no goyf) 2 Hooting Mandrills, 2 Gitaxian Probe, 2 Snare, 2 Pierce, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Dead // Gone

SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ground Seal

What are your latest thoughts on this list?

I am pondering whether to change the Ground Seal for a Grafdigger's Cage.

In any case, wish me luck!

[lexluthor]

Hi dudes!

I have a tournament this weekend, and I want to play with this deck. However I have only 3 volcanic and 2 Tropical Island. What is the best way to build the mana base? ( I use just 6 green cards MD, 4 nimble and 2 Hooting Mandrills) . Some ideas that I thought to replace the 3º tropical island are:

1) replace for 1 breeding pool
2) replace for 1 basic land (island or forest) - I have 4 misty rainforest
3) replace for 1 taiga
4) replace for +1 fetchland ( total 9)
5) Use only 17 lands and put 1 gitaxian probe (virtual 59 cards MD)


Recalling that from green I only use 4 nimble and 2 Hooting Mandrills MD.

Can anybody help me?

[kombatkiwi]

Hi dudes!

I have a tournament this weekend, and I want to play with this deck. However I have only 3 volcanic and 2 Tropical Island. What is the best way to build the mana base? ( I use just 6 green cards MD, 4 nimble and 2 Hooting Mandrills) . Some ideas that I thought to replace the 3º tropical island are:

1) replace for 1 breeding pool
2) replace for 1 basic land (island or forest) - I have 4 misty rainforest
3) replace for 1 taiga
4) replace for +1 fetchland ( total 9)
5) Use only 17 lands and put 1 gitaxian probe (virtual 59 cards MD)


Recalling that from green I only use 4 nimble and 2 Hooting Mandrills MD.

Can anybody help me?

All of these ideas are ~okay~ except for playing Taiga or basic Forest (playing non-blue lands is really bad with 1-land cantrip hands, non-island lands also fuck up Daze so 1 Botanical Sanctum isn't great either)
I think that playing Breeding Pool has the least significant 'fail case' out of the remaining choices
Next best would be -1 Trop +1 Fetch
And I think that -Trop +Probe is worse than both of the above, but I haven't really tested this much (or at all, honestly) so maybe it's just mental inertia on my part

1 basic island is a potentially spicy option but I think it has too much of a meta-call aspect to choose that in general over 1 breeding pool

[IamHANDSOME]

Hi dudes!

I have a tournament this weekend, and I want to play with this deck. However I have only 3 volcanic and 2 Tropical Island. What is the best way to build the mana base? ( I use just 6 green cards MD, 4 nimble and 2 Hooting Mandrills) . Some ideas that I thought to replace the 3º tropical island are:

1) replace for 1 breeding pool
2) replace for 1 basic land (island or forest) - I have 4 misty rainforest
3) replace for 1 taiga
4) replace for +1 fetchland ( total 9)
5) Use only 17 lands and put 1 gitaxian probe (virtual 59 cards MD)


Recalling that from green I only use 4 nimble and 2 Hooting Mandrills MD.

Can anybody help me?


you should be VERY fine with going +1 fetchland and only playing 2 tropical island. I dont see a big problem there.

[rlesko]

I would play the breeding pool, but understand you will lose some games due to the interaction between shocklands and daze.

Get the trop ASAP.

[rlesko]

Scrubbed out @ Worcester today

Started off 2-0, beating Big Red and Grixis Delver

Dropped 3 in a row to Big Red, ANT, and BR Reanimator :shrug:

Still happy with the deck!

[Turboninja]

I had a great week-end at Worcester, a good start wasted!

Round 1, John on Aluren, 2-0, 1-0

Round 2, Brian on UB Reanimator, 2-1, 2-0

Round 3, Zach on Grixis Delver, 1-2, 2-1

Round 4, Cory on Turbo Depths (finished 9th), 2-0, 3-1

Round 5, Kristopher on Lands, 2-0, 4-1

Round 6, Peter on Eldrazi, 0-2, 4-2

Round 7, Drake on Grixis Delver (finished 1st), 0-2, 4-3

Round 8, Odin on Eldrazi, 1-2, 4-4

Round 9, Ben on Miracles, 0-2, 4-5

For the Classic, things were looking up, until some more Grixis Delver

Round 1, Daniel on R/B Prison, 2-0, 1-0

Round 2, Joseph on Sneak and Show, 2-0, 2-0

Round 3, Andy on Grixis Delver, 0-2, 2-1

Round 4, Dylan on Grixis Delver, 0-2, 2-2

Round 5, James on Elves!, 2-1, 3-2

Round 6, Andrew on Mono black value, 2-0, 4-2

Round 7, Chad on R/B Reanimator, 2-1, 5-2

Round 8, Marc on Turbo Depths, 0-2, 5-3


So yeah, 4 losses against Grixis Delver, 2 against Eldrazi. I should have played Goyf that week-end!

[slawwwc]

Hi. I just recently started playing RUG and I am experimenting with 4 Gitaxian Probes main instead of 3 flex and 1 Snare. I think it is a great card that fits perfectly in this deck (threshold, info for stifle). Recently I am also thinking Probes can maybe support cutting one land, down to 17.

I am also trying to fit in Pyromancers as they work great with Probes (4 DoS, 4 NM, 2 Pyro, 1 Mandrills). I am not sure if they really fit with the deck strategy so well, but it seems a good replacement to TNN when used with Probes, but costing one mana less.

Today I saw that on online challenge Bradisek is also playing 4 Probes and has some good results (decklist (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/973276#paper)), so I am interesting in what you all think about playing Probes and Pyromancers in RUG Delver.

[JackaBo]

Nice run, Turboninja. Were you on mandril and probes?
Better luck next time, Rlesko
Slawwc: from playing grixis i agree probe is fantastic. I have also been bothered that we fold to blood moon. Playing red creature(s) might help in that departement.

[rlesko]

Heh, it happens. Just wasn't running very hot, and had many "FoW check" match ups.

I think I misplayed game 2 against storm (lost game 1), involving a weird situation where he cracked a fetch that he played on the previous turn, that I probably should not have stifled.

I had flusterstorm, surgical, and stifle in hand (flipped surgical to a delver, so he knew about it). I stifled his fetch to keep him off black (he had an island and misty rainforest in play), but then he played another land, duress me, and empty. With stifle and flusterstorm, I think I should just force him to have 2 discard spells. If I save my spells, he can't win! Good sequencing on his part, though!

That is the one takeaway I had form the tournament.

Otherwise, losing to BR reanimator and moon stompy is boring. :shrug:

[Turboninja]

Nice run, Turboninja. Were you on mandril and probes?
Better luck next time, Rlesko
Slawwc: from playing grixis i agree probe is fantastic. I have also been bothered that we fold to blood moon. Playing red creature(s) might help in that departement.

Yeah, on Saturday I had 2 mandrills and 2 probes instead of the usual 4 Goyfs. On Sunday, it was 2 mandrills, 1 probe and 1 winter orb. On both occasions, I decided to play 2 Forked Bolts instead of my usual split between FB and Dead // Gone.

I am presently thinking about trying the Chain Lightning version to be slightly more aggressive against my poor matchups (Eldrazi and Grixis Delver), seeing as most of the games I lost left them between 2 and 5 life. It would be main 54, - goyf + 2 mandrills, 4 Chain Lightning 2 Spell Pierce 2 Spell Snare. Maybe a couple Price of Progress in the sideboard.

I really don't like going the TNN way, as Grixis and Stoneblade do it so much better than us. I feel like to play to our strengths, we need to stay a tempo deck.

[Morzakin]

Hi all! Lately I've been trying to tune my RUG list and was looking for some advice after browsing the sub. The TNN are in question now especially and I am leaning towards slotting in a Seal of Fire main. The maybe odd SB and main surgical are due to my meta overflowing with Lands and KotR decks. Please feel free to offer criticism

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 TNN
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island


2 Ground Seal
2 Pyroblast
1 Winter Orb
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Destructive Revelry

[FiliusIcari]

Hey there! I certainly recommend more than one Rough//Tumble, the card is just obscene. I also recommend abrade, it's fantastic in the D&T matchup, good against any chalice deck, and can also just be brought in for when I need more spot removal.

If you have a lot of lands in your meta, you could consider running Life from the Loam. Recuring wastelands is really convenient both as lands hate and also just in other matchups.

[Druz91]

Hi all! Lately I've been trying to tune my RUG list and was looking for some advice after browsing the sub. The TNN are in question now especially and I am leaning towards slotting in a Seal of Fire main. The maybe odd SB and main surgical are due to my meta overflowing with Lands and KotR decks. Please feel free to offer criticism

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 TNN
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island


2 Ground Seal
2 Pyroblast
1 Winter Orb
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Destructive Revelry

I guess The Best thing To do is To switch The md surgical with The dismember in your sideboard. The reason is that a singleton grave hate is Not enough To consistently stop loam decks in g1, While another removal spell Can help You against opposing shamans And big fatties (especially gurmag, a true beating for The deck).
Another card i'd also recommend To play against loam decks in your sideboard is submerge, which Can help You against either fast marit lages and unanswered knights /goyfs .

Inviato dal mio SM-A300FU utilizzando Tapatalk

[ChemicalBurns]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Barbarian Ring

Top 8ed a small event with this today, most notable addition is the two Predicts in the main deck. I'm getting more and more high on the card, and it brought me a lot of wins throughout the day.

R1: Ruby Storm
G1: I have a quickish clock and counter all his cost-reducers. Eventually, however, he is able to double Grapeshot me beating my single Stifle in hand.
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Dismember
-2 Nimble Mongoose
+1 Counterspell
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Abrade
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Sylvan Library
G2: I have fast Delver and Drills beats and a boatload of counters (I refil at some stage with a Predict, really putting the nail in the coffin).
G3: Looks like an early match loss when my opponent plays a t1 Defense Grid, but I cantrip around and eventually find an Abrade to blow it up. Delver comes into play along with me being able to cantrip into some action that can beat the rest of his hand, especially after I Wasteland his tomb.

R2: Miracles
G1: Am able to establish Goose early, eventually grow him into a threat, Stifle a Terminus which my opponent Forces, but I have more Mongooses to play and a Force pitching Delver for his Jace. Exactly what you want in game one - a Mongoose heavy hand where you can pace your hand and only be concerned about Terminus and not Plow-Snap-Plow.
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Dismember
-2 Hooting Mandrills
+1 Counterspell
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Sylvan Library
+3 Pyroblast
G2: I end up having to over-commit to the board a bit as I draw multiple Delvers to accompany my turn one Delver, rather than letting them be pitch fodder as they usually are. The second one nicely helps trigger a Predict (though the Predict gets Counterspelled - showing how threatening it is!) and I Wasteland my opponent off double white - they can't play a Verdict they'd let sit in their hand. My opponent (a good friend of mine) also screwed up a cantrip that made him miss a second White source once more.

R3: Turbo Depths
I hate this matchup. But somehow I squeak it out.
G1: I get a fast Delver and Mandrills and just counter enough setup spells and have a Wastelandand Stifle ready to go that my opponent can't do enough.
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Dismember
-2 Nimble Mongoose
+2 Abrade
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Counterspell
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Life from the Loam
G2: Mulligan to a six with no coloured source, but have Wasteland and Force to keep my opponent at bay for the time being. I end up drawing no coloured source for a few turns and die.
G3: Similar to game one, though a critical turn comes with me Predicting away a Strand I knew about and then drawing a Snare right on time to counter a Sylvan Scrying. Really showed the strength of the card. I end up with Force, Stifle x2 in hand that he cannot beat.

R4: Storm
ID

R5: Elves
ID

Top 8: Infect
G1: I'm able to have enough removal to keep my opponent on his toes. Elfs get killed immediately and Inkmoth finds itself also killed to a Bolt + Daze to counter the Invigorate pumping it. From there the idiots cruise to victory.
+3 Pyroblast
+2 Abrade
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Life from the Loam
+1 Barbarian Ring
+1 Sylvan Library
-4 Stifle
-2 Spell Snare
-3 Daze
G2: I'm very behind, as my opponent goes turn one Hierarch into turn two Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, defending it from my Bolt with a Flusterstorm. Jace gets to work, ticking up and sabotaging my Delver. Eventually I kill the Hierarch, keeping the Nexus a 1/1, and have a 1/2 Delver to block. I do so, he Become Immenses, I Pierce, he Dazes. So my Delver gets eaten. I go to Wasteland the Nexus but am met with Teferi's Response. Tilt. Eventually I assemble Loam to deal with the Nexus though. An Agent comes down and Jace ticks down to recast BE, taking me to eight. I find a Blast for the Agent though, and eventually assemble Ring Loam with a new Delver cruising through. Jace dies to Ring, then all my opponent's creatures die to Ring. It was beautiful.

Top 4: 4c Delver
G1: This is vs. Steve Stamopoulos, fellow Salt Mine host. He's been on a very scary 4c Delver with DRS, Goyf and Angler, all must-kills. The mana of the deck, however, is very fragile. G1 I was on the play and we had a stand-off for many turns, him with two Delta and me with two Stifles. Eventually my opponent has to make a play lest discard to handsize, and then he gets his lands Stifled into a oblivion. A Predict then gasses me back up and a Delver cruises to victory.
-3 Stifle
-4 Delver of Secrets
+1 Life from the Loam
+2 True-Name Nemesis
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Flusterstorm
G2: My hand is bizarre. Double Bolt, TNN x2 and a Force + 2 lands. So I keep, the plan being to kill t1 DRS, Force Goyf and then double TNN my opponent. Everything goes to plan, though Steve protects his Goyf with a Force. I don't find my third land but do find more removal, enough to kill the Goyf via double removal spell. Steve finds another DRS, but double TNN cruise to victory.

Finals: Turbo Depths
G1: Uneventful, he plays Needle, I Pierce, he has another, names Wasteland and then I can't win.
G2: Mull to five, have Loam + Wasteland + FoW + Blue card! Scry Trop to the Top, we have a chance. He discards my FoW, plays Needle on Wasteland and naturally plays DD. Well, great. GG.

Overall, the list felt so smooth and slick. I love the Predicts and will keep trying them. They feel similar to the Chart a Course in the GP Madrid list that recently Top 8ed. Just a card that can be slotted into a moment in the game to refuel and keep the tempo pushing forward, as well as fuel Thresh. I highly recommend people give them a shot.

[Morzakin]

I guess The Best thing To do is To switch The md surgical with The dismember in your sideboard. The reason is that a singleton grave hate is Not enough To consistently stop loam decks in g1, While another removal spell Can help You against opposing shamans And big fatties (especially gurmag, a true beating for The deck).
Another card i'd also recommend To play against loam decks in your sideboard is submerge, which Can help You against either fast marit lages and unanswered knights /goyfs .

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I’ve honestly really enjoyed having the surgical MB. It definitely blindsides people and combo decks are sometimes denied a game 1 that they go into expecting to win. Submerge is definitely a card that often takes the place of the Echoing Truth in the SB but I was trying Truth as more a catch all to hit decks that go wide as well


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[Morzakin]

Hey there! I certainly recommend more than one Rough//Tumble, the card is just obscene. I also recommend abrade, it's fantastic in the D&T matchup, good against any chalice deck, and can also just be brought in for when I need more spot removal.

If you have a lot of lands in your meta, you could consider running Life from the Loam. Recuring wastelands is really convenient both as lands hate and also just in other matchups.

Rough // Tumble has definitely been shining more for me than in the past and I would agree that going up to two isn’t a bad call. Abrade was fantastic when D&T was running rampant and taking it out was a definite meta call but the ability to hit chalice never occurred to me. Loam used to be in as well but against Lands I already had such efficient hate and against decks where my wastelands were already good it felt like a win more. Maybe it’s time to try it out again


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[Morzakin]

R3: Turbo Depths
I hate this matchup. But somehow I squeak it out.
G1: I get a fast Delver and Mandrills and just counter enough setup spells and have a Wastelandand Stifle ready to go that my opponent can't do enough.
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Dismember
-2 Nimble Mongoose
+2 Abrade
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Counterspell
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Life from the Loam
G2: Mulligan to a six with no coloured source, but have Wasteland and Force to keep my opponent at bay for the time being. I end up drawing no coloured source for a few turns and die.
G3: Similar to game one, though a critical turn comes with me Predicting away a Strand I knew about and then drawing a Snare right on time to counter a Sylvan Scrying. Really showed the strength of the card. I end up with Force, Stifle x2 in hand that he cannot beat.



Nice finish! Your 75 are really neat. In R3 you sideboard in two loams. Is this a typo? The other thing about your SB I’m curious about are Counterspell, Sylvan Library, and Barbarian Ring. Overall how did you feel about them? Ring seems spicy but I’m curious about how often you can line it up and hit it with loam. Haven't commited to Library myself because it seems like it's off tempo.

[rlesko]

Predict has always felt a bit clunky to me with a curve as low as ours. Granted, I am very interested in it. And with counterbalance making a resurgence, it could be poised to have an impact...

[ChemicalBurns]

Nice finish! Your 75 are really neat. In R3 you sideboard in two loams. Is this a typo? The other thing about your SB I’m curious about are Counterspell, Sylvan Library, and Barbarian Ring. Overall how did you feel about them? Ring seems spicy but I’m curious about how often you can line it up and hit it with loam. Haven't commited to Library myself because it seems like it's off tempo.

Yes, typo! Only one Loam.

Counterspell is a skeleton key card. It is useful in combo matchups as a somewhat clunky but servicable piece of countermagic, but also comes in against grindy matchups as a blanket answer to stop non-Blue threats that cannot be Pyroblasted. Decks like Miracles (they will play Mentor, Gideon, etc that can be problematic, and they can often develop their mana past our soft countermagic) and Loam (Knight in particular) and Pile (Lilianas) all get covered by the Counterspell. I've been very, very happy with it over the second Flusterstorm. I will almost never bring it in when matchups are mana-tight, however.

Sylvan Library has always been very good to me, especially when running Predict. I will bring it in against all grindy matchups (usually I will immediately draw two additional cards since we are the aggro deck and do not care about our life) and also against combo - often you will counter their early "go-off" but will need a way to refill your hand for the next wave (especially relevant vs. ANT, a deck with Past in Flames). There is usually a window where Library can let you do this. And yeah, with Predict it's basically insane.

Barbarian Ring is basically an additional removal spell ala how people play a Forked Bolt/Seal of Fire in the sideboard. However, it truly shines against D&T. It helps you develop your mana and can kill active Mother of Runes - really relieves the pressure of "Turn One Mom, go". And then, if you have Loam going, eventually you will hit Ring and it will act as an inevitability engine against many many decks, as I achieved against Infect and I have achieved in the past vs. Grixis and even Czech Pile. It's very powerful at little cost.


Predict has always felt a bit clunky to me with a curve as low as ours. Granted, I am very interested in it. And with counterbalance making a resurgence, it could be poised to have an impact...

I always thought it would be clunky too - but it's the instant-speed nature of it that makes it so good in RUG. Of all the Delver decks we are the most reactive due to our core of Stifle/Snare/Pierce and no Probes so we are almost always holding up one or two mana. Being able to fill in those turns with a Predict is very, very powerful and really pulls you ahead. It can be very clunky in matchups where your mana is under attack though (Delver mirrors, D&T), but unlike other grind cards used previously (Loam, Library, etc.) Predict always has the option of being Force of Will food, which in my mind is very relevant. Do note that we have 12 ways to flip it with Delver! A sequence I have actually done is t1 hold up Stifle (usually I would play Delver, but because Predict I did otherwise), Stifle opp. fetch, t2 play Delver, t3 check with Delver and upkeep Predict, hit third land drop and still have ability to hold up mana, counter stuff and have a refilled hand. YMMV, but I've been surprised at how effective it's been. Oh, and it feeds Thresh effectively too!

[bl4ckwell]

Soo, finally got some legacy games in after not playing for a couple of months, My LGS was supposed to have a 8 man legacy, but only 5 people showered up, so we just ended playing each other casually.

My set up was :

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble moongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
1x preordain
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
2x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x dismember
1x tarfire

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)
2x REB
1x counterspell
2x flusterstorm
1x spell pierce
1x grafdiggers cage
2x surgical extraction
2x ancient grudge
1x sylvan library
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

Really interested in adding 2x winter orb to SB for eldrazi/stompy decks and control in general.

I find that this mainboard is pretty well set up against a lot of decks game 1. I am loving the preordain. The tarfire as my 6th removal I found to be great, it killed most things I needed it to kill(delvers, DRS, MOR, Thalia) and many times got goyf to 5/6. I also liked that its instant speed.

I really didn't take notes, so im going by memory, so some matchups wont have that many details.

The decks I played against were

Eldrazi aggro with chalices
UB Reanimator
BUG Delver variant (Hymns and anglers)
DnT


I played the Eldrazi guy 2x because I felt it was a good learning match up. I went 1-3 first round, 2-3 second round.
Both games I lost game 1. They were close, but got out raced.

My SB for this matchup was:

+2 ancient grudge
+1 spell pierce
+1 counterspell
+2 surgical extraction
+1 dismember


-2 spell snare
-4 nimble mongoose
-1 stifle

I thought it would be important to have stifles against ratchet bombs and opposing wastelands.

So basic plan was prevent chalice, clock them with flipped delvers, and wasteland, then surgical extract their Eye of Ugin and Cavern/temples.

Preordain as an 9th cantrip really helped get me the cards I needed.

Counterspell won me 2 games from late game reality smashers, after already using both my dismembers in those games. Definitely a very challenging matchup.

I will detail the other matchups later.

This matchup alone makes me understand running winter orbs.

[rlesko]

I would not bring in surgical extraction against eldrazi - this seems really wrong to me. There are not a lot of high upside cards to hit from them, and they don't use their graveyard at all

Also, cutting spell snare seems pretty wrong - it has many targets, ratchet bomb, chalice on 1, eldrazi mimic, and umezawa's jitte

you should bring in the true name nemesis as well.

the spell pierces are ok, but i would not want 3 of them vs eldrazi. they are not very good on the draw, and eldrazi has many creature heavy draws that create virtual disadvantage for cards like spell pierce.

i would also bring in the sylvan library - you can't pay life vs them but its a way to repeatedly improve your draw step if your cantrips are shut off via chalice

[KobeBryan]

Soo, finally got some legacy games in after not playing for a couple of months, My LGS was supposed to have a 8 man legacy, but only 5 people showered up, so we just ended playing each other casually.

My set up was :

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble moongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
1x preordain
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
2x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x dismember
1x tarfire

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)
2x REB
1x counterspell
2x flusterstorm
1x spell pierce
1x grafdiggers cage
2x surgical extraction
2x ancient grudge
1x sylvan library
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

Really interested in adding 2x winter orb to SB for eldrazi/stompy decks and control in general.

I find that this mainboard is pretty well set up against a lot of decks game 1. I am loving the preordain. The tarfire as my 6th removal I found to be great, it killed most things I needed it to kill(delvers, DRS, MOR, Thalia) and many times got goyf to 5/6. I also liked that its instant speed.

I really didn't take notes, so im going by memory, so some matchups wont have that many details.

The decks I played against were

Eldrazi aggro with chalices
UB Reanimator
BUG Delver variant (Hymns and anglers)
DnT


I played the Eldrazi guy 2x because I felt it was a good learning match up. I went 1-3 first round, 2-3 second round.
Both games I lost game 1. They were close, but got out raced.

My SB for this matchup was:

+2 ancient grudge
+1 spell pierce
+1 counterspell
+2 surgical extraction
+1 dismember


-2 spell snare
-4 nimble mongoose
-1 stifle

I thought it would be important to have stifles against ratchet bombs and opposing wastelands.

So basic plan was prevent chalice, clock them with flipped delvers, and wasteland, then surgical extract their Eye of Ugin and Cavern/temples.

Preordain as an 9th cantrip really helped get me the cards I needed.

Counterspell won me 2 games from late game reality smashers, after already using both my dismembers in those games. Definitely a very challenging matchup.

I will detail the other matchups later.

This matchup alone makes me understand running winter orbs.

You have 11 creatures in your deck...

You are going to board out 4 mongeeses in this fast matchup? Who's going to chump for you to keep your life high.

Why are you boarding in Spell pierces for? They have so much extra mana. They don't even play spells except maybe to get you for chalice for 1. YOu need stifle on their rachet bomb.

[ChemicalBurns]

Soo, finally got some legacy games in after not playing for a couple of months, My LGS was supposed to have a 8 man legacy, but only 5 people showered up, so we just ended playing each other casually.

My set up was :

Main (60)

Creatures (11)

4x delver
4x nimble moongoose
3x tarmogoyf

Spells (31)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
1x preordain
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
2x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x dismember
1x tarfire

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)
2x REB
1x counterspell
2x flusterstorm
1x spell pierce
1x grafdiggers cage
2x surgical extraction
2x ancient grudge
1x sylvan library
1x dismember
1x dead/gone
1x TNN

Really interested in adding 2x winter orb to SB for eldrazi/stompy decks and control in general.

I find that this mainboard is pretty well set up against a lot of decks game 1. I am loving the preordain. The tarfire as my 6th removal I found to be great, it killed most things I needed it to kill(delvers, DRS, MOR, Thalia) and many times got goyf to 5/6. I also liked that its instant speed.

I really didn't take notes, so im going by memory, so some matchups wont have that many details.

The decks I played against were

Eldrazi aggro with chalices
UB Reanimator
BUG Delver variant (Hymns and anglers)
DnT


I played the Eldrazi guy 2x because I felt it was a good learning match up. I went 1-3 first round, 2-3 second round.
Both games I lost game 1. They were close, but got out raced.

My SB for this matchup was:

+2 ancient grudge
+1 spell pierce
+1 counterspell
+2 surgical extraction
+1 dismember


-2 spell snare
-4 nimble mongoose
-1 stifle

I thought it would be important to have stifles against ratchet bombs and opposing wastelands.

So basic plan was prevent chalice, clock them with flipped delvers, and wasteland, then surgical extract their Eye of Ugin and Cavern/temples.

Preordain as an 9th cantrip really helped get me the cards I needed.

Counterspell won me 2 games from late game reality smashers, after already using both my dismembers in those games. Definitely a very challenging matchup.

I will detail the other matchups later.

This matchup alone makes me understand running winter orbs.

I agree that Goose is mediocre; but so is Stifle - there is barely any value to get from it. Get into the habit of boarding it out completely against non-fetch decks, because it's way too high variance there. I would SB:

+1 Dismember
+1 Dead // Gone
+1 True-Name Nemesis
+2 Ancient Grudge
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Counterspell
-4 Stifle
-4 Nimble Mongoose

[FiliusIcari]

I'm still not sure if I understand or agree with taking out threats down to 8 of them against Eldrazi. I recognize that Mongoose is the worst of our threats against them, but at a certain point you just need to work with what you have. Delver gets ballistaed and we only have so many goyfs, so I don't really want to be relying on the single TNN we board in to deal with them. A draw with goose and wastelands is oftentimes going to be enough, we have better things to take out in my opinion like spell pierce. Speaking of which, why would you board out stifle and board in spell pierce. Against Chalice Pierce is better, sure, but against ratchet bomb you can afford to find stifle a turn later and don't need to be holding up mana to protect against it which is a huge plus.

[bl4ckwell]

You have 11 creatures in your deck...

You are going to board out 4 mongeeses in this fast matchup? Who's going to chump for you to keep your life high.

Why are you boarding in Spell pierces for? They have so much extra mana. They don't even play spells except maybe to get you for chalice for 1. YOu need stifle on their rachet bomb.

You are probably right. The reason I took the mongooses out, was that my main concern was preventing chalice on 1, even though I do have grudges after game 1. I thought that the surgical extractions were a good idea, because it helped stop their mana ramping, and made it so I could actually counter their creatures (By extracting cavern of souls). I did win games by having a counterspell for a late game smasher and/or endbringer. It was most likely due to inexperience playing eldrazi, but it is a real pain to play them between their seemingly endless mana, large creatures and chalice. The games I won were all from double flipped delver with 5/6 goyfs to block, and a lot of removal/ bolts to the face.

I do agree should have boarded in TNN.

[bl4ckwell]

So Just to continue,

DnT, I find this a really good matchuo for this deck, and me personally since I play against DnT a lot at both LGS I play at, as well as close friend playing this deck.

I went 3-1, lost game 1, was close though. I not a huge fan of TNN in this matchup because sometimes 3 mana against DnT can problematic, but it worked out these games.

My SB was

+2 ancient grudge
+1 sylvan library
+1 counterspell
+1 dead/gone
+1 TNN

-4 FoW
-2 DoS

Sylvan and stifle shined post SB in all games. Library kept my hand full with removal for MoR. Stifle on RiP etb trigger was huge, as well as opposing wastelands. Goyfs got big and did work, as did the mongooses. I got TNN casted in one game. My only issue I ran into was Sanctum prelate on 1, but dismember did the trick.

[tped]

So Just to continue,

DnT, I find this a really good matchuo for this deck, and me personally since I play against DnT a lot at both LGS I play at, as well as close friend playing this deck.

I went 3-1, lost game 1, was close though. I not a huge fan of TNN in this matchup because sometimes 3 mana against DnT can problematic, but it worked out these games.

My SB was

+2 ancient grudge
+1 sylvan library
+1 counterspell
+1 dead/gone
+1 TNN

-4 FoW
-2 DoS

Sylvan and stifle shined post SB in all games. Library kept my hand full with removal for MoR. Stifle on RiP etb trigger was huge, as well as opposing wastelands. Goyfs got big and did work, as did the mongooses. I got TNN casted in one game. My only issue I ran into was Sanctum prelate on 1, but dismember did the trick.

Do you usually keep a blue open to Stifle the RiP trigger?
I have had issues where once Vial is resolved, that I get swarmed with creatures and get overwhelmed.
In other cases, once a MoM gets active I find it really hard to close out a game.

[bl4ckwell]

Do you usually keep a blue open to Stifle the RiP trigger?
I have had issues where once Vial is resolved, that I get swarmed with creatures and get overwhelmed.
In other cases, once a MoM gets active I find it really hard to close out a game.

Yes, I always (when possible) keep one blue open for stifle, spell snare is ideal, worst case spell pierce. Important to keep threshold. Assume the goyfs will always get StP or path to exiled.

[BeetsandOlives]

So Just to continue,

DnT, I find this a really good matchuo for this deck, and me personally since I play against DnT a lot at both LGS I play at, as well as close friend playing this deck.

I went 3-1, lost game 1, was close though. I not a huge fan of TNN in this matchup because sometimes 3 mana against DnT can problematic, but it worked out these games.

My SB was

+2 ancient grudge
+1 sylvan library
+1 counterspell
+1 dead/gone
+1 TNN

-4 FoW
-2 DoS

Sylvan and stifle shined post SB in all games. Library kept my hand full with removal for MoR. Stifle on RiP etb trigger was huge, as well as opposing wastelands. Goyfs got big and did work, as did the mongooses. I got TNN casted in one game. My only issue I ran into was Sanctum prelate on 1, but dismember did the trick.

I don't understand how you claim D&T is a great matchup for RUG Delver, especially given your SB and your SB strategy. Conventionally speaking, Delver tends to be unfavored against D&T. Counterspell is close to a blank against D&T, and really I'm looking to shave as much non-free countermagic as I can in this matchup, especially anything that cannot address a turn 1 vial, and bringing in as many answers to their permanents as I have. Cutting Delvers is a mistake - even post-board early Delvers are threats that can be ridden to victory, and I'm not fond of Stifle in this matchup and tend to shave a few. I do, however, have a lot more to bring in than you do for the matchup - and earnestly, the complete lack of sweepers and haymakers for the D&T matchup in your SB makes me wonder how you claim to have such a strong matchup.

[ChemicalBurns]

D&T is not a good matchup, and I think you haven't experienced us having a "normal" draw and them having an above-average draw. They t1 Vial, we play a Delver, then they Plow, Vial in a Mom and Wasteland us and the game is often completely over.

Considering this list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Counterspell
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Barbarian Ring

I generally SB:
+1 Life from the Loam
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Barbarian Ring
+2 Abrade
+1 Ancient Grudge
+2 True-Name Nemesis
-4 Stifle
-2 Spell Pierce
-2 Predict

I disagree on Stifle's utility in this matchup, and I've long ummed and err on whether to keep it in or not - eventually JonLX convinced me not too. And I agree with him. Your mana is often so cramped that it's hard to hold up a spell like Stifle to defend against Wasteland and honestly in this matchup you want to be as "Zoo-like" as possible and tap out for threats, card advantage (Loam getting us under mana screw also is great) and removal turn after turn. Stifling Stoneforge activations are also less reliable than just killing the creature on the spot and keeping the board clear. I can see keeping in Stifle if they are splashing Red and therefore it has a bit more utility from hitting fetches (I would cut some number of Mongooses then, because they can be hard to get threshed when your mana is cramped). RiP can be a pain but Snare and having the full amount of Delvers (never cut Delver in this matchup - it is really your saving grace and often a hand of double Delver and them not having Vial wins the game from its pure aggression) and TNNs in your deck make it sometimes mediocre. Goyf versions have a better time because the key to this matchup is deploying threats ASAP and being as aggressive as possible before they can set up. The late game can only be won if Loam-Ring or Library and similar card advantage engines get up and running.

[kombatkiwi]

My take:
I agree with Sean on most things:
- DNT is not a good matchup
- The Tarmogoyf version is probably superior because it makes it more likely that you can aggro them out. Not only can you just deploy big threats more quickly, but there is also the particular fact that Mandrills always trades with Batterskull but Goyf can just be 4/5 and beat it outright. Mandrills having Trample can be good vs Mother / Karakas but overall Tarmogoyf is probably slightly stronger.
- Cutting Delver is almost certainly wrong

The thing I am less sure about is the Stifle issue

Your mana is often so cramped that it's hard to hold up a spell like Stifle to defend against Wasteland
While this is kind of true, if your mana is cramped and then they Wasteland you, now your mana situation is even worse. Your DNT opponent's Wastelands are much better than yours because they have Vial and Thalia, so being able to counter them is important.

This is my strategic perspective on the topic, all the other points I could make in favour of Stifle are just listing all the different things in the matchup you can use it on. I'm not 100% sure this is correct but I lean towards keeping Stifle in SB games vs DNT

[bl4ckwell]

I don't understand how you claim D&T is a great matchup for RUG Delver, especially given your SB and your SB strategy. Conventionally speaking, Delver tends to be unfavored against D&T. Counterspell is close to a blank against D&T, and really I'm looking to shave as much non-free countermagic as I can in this matchup, especially anything that cannot address a turn 1 vial, and bringing in as many answers to their permanents as I have. Cutting Delvers is a mistake - even post-board early Delvers are threats that can be ridden to victory, and I'm not fond of Stifle in this matchup and tend to shave a few. I do, however, have a lot more to bring in than you do for the matchup - and earnestly, the complete lack of sweepers and haymakers for the D&T matchup in your SB makes me wonder how you claim to have such a strong matchup.

I said "good" matchup, not "great" one. A turn one flipped delver can win games, however with StP and sometimes Path to exile, your delver and/or goyfs with eventually be removed. I feel stifle for opposing wastelands, as well as for the RIP ETB trigger (assuming you cant counter it) is very important. I don't underestimate stifling a batterskull trigger, even though they will most likely flickerwisp it back next turn. We have a lot of solutions for a turn 1 vial game 1. The main thing is to counter/remove the MoR's immediately.

After game 1, we have so many cantrips to find removal/counters/ancient grudges. Assuming they don't get removed right away, our goyfs get huge in this matchup and can be a fast clock. Daze is always in play, as they use most of their mana tapping our mana with their ports.

Don't get me wrong, I lost many games to DnT, I just feel it is not as bad of a matchup as its made out to be. I think Maverick, Eldrazi and Lands are our almost unwinnable matchups with this deck, That being said, im a casual player, who never played in a major GP or tournament. I'm just happy to get legacy games in at all.

[rlesko]

Whats your boarding plan for DnT?

Spell pierce is ok on the play, but bad on the draw I think. This is a match up I would like to practice more. I think its not that bad overall, but its miserable to play / practice against (Kinda like Lands).


I think Maverick, Eldrazi and Lands are our almost unwinnable matchups with this deck,

No idea how Maverick is nowadays, thats a match up where having a few copies of Submerge really changes the dynamic of the whole match up. However, the other 2 are very winnable. Eldrazi is straight up even IMO if you play goyf. Either way Lands is a fine match up, you just need a lot of experience against the deck to determine what spells need to be countered. Ironically enough the Lands deck is very susceptible to getting mana screwed and post board with surgicals I really think the match up is not that bad.

[kombatkiwi]

Whats your boarding plan for DnT?

Spell pierce is ok on the play, but bad on the draw I think. This is a match up I would like to practice more. I think its not that bad overall, but its miserable to play / practice against (Kinda like Lands).



No idea how Maverick is nowadays, thats a match up where having a few copies of Submerge really changes the dynamic of the whole match up. However, the other 2 are very winnable. Eldrazi is straight up even IMO if you play goyf. Either way Lands is a fine match up, you just need a lot of experience against the deck to determine what spells need to be countered. Ironically enough the Lands deck is very susceptible to getting mana screwed and post board with surgicals I really think the match up is not that bad.

I'm pretty sure I would rather play against Eldrazi than DNT
Lands / DNT is about the same I think, DNT might even be harder
Maverick I have no idea because nobody plays it anymore

[BeetsandOlives]

I'm pretty sure I would rather play against Eldrazi than DNT
Lands / DNT is about the same I think, DNT might even be harder
Maverick I have no idea because nobody plays it anymore

Eldrazi in my experience is tough, especially if you're on Mandrills. I'm in full agreement that the goyfs go a very long way towards improving the matchup. The matchup feels similar to how the D&T matchup plays out in that you're clearly the aggressor, but more things matter in your opponent's deck than in yours, and only by combining an aggressive start and drawing more of your relevant cards than your opponent draws out of their deck do you actually pull out a win.

I'm currently on this list:

18 land RUG core

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
2 Goyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
1 Preordain

3 Surgical
1 Snapcaster
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pyroblast
2 True Name
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrade
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember
1 Rough // Tumble

Against D&T with this SB, I board as follows:

- 2 Spell Pierce
- 3 Stifle
- 4 Daze (on the draw) / -4 Force (on the play)
+2 TNN
+1 Dismember
+1 Rough // Tumble
+1 Abrade
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Snapcaster

[FiliusIcari]

As GP Seattle comes closer, and having played a lot of Grixis Delver to help my friends test, is there any reason we aren't playing some number of Gitaxian Probe? I've been trying 2, and while we don't have Young Pyromancer utility, it fills our graveyard for free for Goose, it allows us better control over our cantrips, it helps us play around removal, know when we need countermagic up, what to keep with Brainstorm, and whether we go turn 1 threat or hold up Stifle, It seems phenomenal, and trying out 2 right now I'm really liking it.

Thoughts? Have people already tried this and determined it's not any better than the other things to be doing?

[kombatkiwi]

With regards to the Probe comment, and because I don't think anybody has mentioned this list in the thread yet:

Ondrej Strasky GP Madrid 2018 RUG

Comment from twitter:
"This is what I played at the GP. Wouldn't recommend moving forward but I think it's better than my record (X-6) shows. I punted 2 matches I maybe could have won. The offline meta is different to online and this deck is much worse offline"

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force
1 Pyroblast

4 Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 TNN

SB
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Sylvan Library
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
1 Grudge
1 Price of Progress

With no YP, Delve cards, or Cabal Therapy, in my mind Probe is moving towards 'training wheels' territory for this deck.
I don't think it's an awful decision to play it, as having perfect information does sometimes allow you to make plays that would be suboptimal otherwise
However, there are enough matchups where the lifeloss is important that I think the drawback outweighs the upside

I do think playing 4 (As Ondrej has done) is excessive when you have no other payoff except Threshold/Info
Note that playing Pyroclasm over Rough//Tumble is fine if you expect to play against Grixis all day but is obviously much worse against e.g. Elves

[BeetsandOlives]

My experience with the deck leads me to believe Probe is a trap. For one, the decklist is very tight, and there's really no significant need to dilute the deck any further with even more air. The state of the format right now is such that running any fewer than 6 removal spells is straight insanity, as unanswered DRS neuter your game plan so strongly that you must answer them as soon as possible. However, at the same time, you need countermagic to help you gain and preserve tempo - I would not play with any less than 2 Spell Snare at any point right now given how prevalent 2cmc brick walls are that are difficult to answer otherwise (Strix, Stoneforge, and Chalice on 1 being among a few that RUG traditionally struggles heavily with). At the end of the day, where do you find room for all these cards while preserving the tempo game plan?

I think the information Probe yields is certainly not anything to dismiss, but as kombatkiwi says, there are so few other tangible benefits to Probe otherwise that it's really just not worth the inclusion. Even if I were on Mandrills, I still wouldn't consider running the card - it just doesn't do enough relative to other cards you could run in RUG Delver.

[kombatkiwi]

My experience with the deck leads me to believe Probe is a trap. For one, the decklist is very tight, and there's really no significant need to dilute the deck any further with even more air. The state of the format right now is such that running any fewer than 6 removal spells is straight insanity, as unanswered DRS neuter your game plan so strongly that you must answer them as soon as possible. However, at the same time, you need countermagic to help you gain and preserve tempo - I would not play with any less than 2 Spell Snare at any point right now given how prevalent 2cmc brick walls are that are difficult to answer otherwise (Strix, Stoneforge, and Chalice on 1 being among a few that RUG traditionally struggles heavily with). At the end of the day, where do you find room for all these cards while preserving the tempo game plan?

I think the information Probe yields is certainly not anything to dismiss, but as kombatkiwi says, there are so few other tangible benefits to Probe otherwise that it's really just not worth the inclusion. Even if I were on Mandrills, I still wouldn't consider running the card - it just doesn't do enough relative to other cards you could run in RUG Delver.

The argument that it's 'filling your deck with air' makes no sense and is not something I agree with at all.
Yes 6 removal spells seems to be a 'good number' but if you have 4 free cantrips in your deck you are more likely to draw these spells, not less. Maybe you have to cut 1 removal to fit and 3+ probes, but the math might work out about the same (or at least there would be some other configuration that would be beneficial)

If it cost 0 life and 0 mana it would be an auto include, the only reason not to use it would be if you expect to play against Thalia/Thorn all the time

For example I think Andrejs list would be good if probe was totally free
Maindeck pyro is probably still too 'online' but the rest of it makes sense

[BeetsandOlives]

Probe isn't technically free. It costs 2 life to play it "for free," which is a real cost, especially in Delver mirrors. In addition, the mere inclusion of Probes means that you have to shift the ratios of the cards you include. Most lists have at most 10 flex slots to play around with, after you account for the 18 land core plus a minimum of 10 creatures in the main deck. This also assumes that you do not include Pierce and Snare as part of your RUG Delver core, which is something I do not agree with. Playing Probe carries with it a non-negligible opportunity cost in that your ratios of action spells just don't work out well enough to enable you to fit everything into 60 cards; my opinions based on my experience with the deck is that RUG Delver really requires a critical mass of cheap countermagic to enable its otherwise middling cards to eke out wins, and really, if I could afford to play fewer removal spells I would gladly do so if not for the existence of DRS. That being said, Probe in RUG Delver has always been an interesting topic and it's worth discussing, especially whenever cards are printed that enable more synergies within the deck such as Mandrills.

Regarding Strasky's list: you can see what I mean with regards to how the Probes take up deck space to the exclusion of other cards that you would want to play. He's not playing Pierces nor Snares, and while he's got a Pyroblast maindeck, it's really not enough countermagic as a whole for me to feel comfortable personally. Shaving Snares hurts your matchups across the board, and I can't imagine him having a very hot game 1 against combo on the back of just Daze, Force and Pyroblast.

[kombatkiwi]

Probe isn't technically free. It costs 2 life to play it "for free," which is a real cost, especially in Delver mirrors.
I have never disagreed with this, and it is the reason why I don't play probe. Go back and read my posts again


In addition, the mere inclusion of Probes means that you have to shift the ratios of the cards you include.
Yes, this is something I also said in my previous post


Playing Probe carries with it a non-negligible opportunity cost in that your ratios of action spells just don't work out well enough to enable you to fit everything into 60 cards
This is an extremely bold/absurd claim that requires way more justification than you have provided
In a deck with no tutors the utility of having playing situational answers is very small. Sure, I like playing Snare and Pierce and Seal of Fire because I think they are good cards. However, I have to look for these other 'good' cards because I am only allowed to play 4 of the best cards. In most situations I would rather just have 6 bolts and 5 Dazes. (Or something around there; I would have to test a bit to find an optimal ratio if such a thing was allowed)

Have you ever considered playing 61 cards (or more) in order to fit extra Pierce/Snare/Removal?
If your answer is 'of course not' (which is the correct answer and what I expect you to say) then please pause for a second and re-think your opinion on Probe

[ptahetep]

Hello all,

On probe: during the treasure cruise days, many of us experimented with probe with the significant upside of having cruise. My configuration for GP New Jersey was 3 probes, 3 cruises and 3 pyromancer.

Even with all that the deck felt schizophrenic ( ie multiple personality disorder like):
I like the training wheel aspect going into 9 rounds with not as much practice as many. Being able to play the young pyro game with ton of draw was great. Being able to also play the delver daze game was also great. Being cut in the middle was bad. Top decking into strategy 1 when on a strategy 2 game was far from optimal but we could afford it because of the benefit and the absurdity of treasure cruise.

I would consider 2 going into a large event less prepare to help me against a wide meta.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BeetsandOlives]

I missed your earlier comments on Probe and life loss, so that's my bad.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but our primary point of debate, it seems, centers on two factors:
1. What exactly does opportunity cost entail in including cantrips?
2. Does the benefit to playing Probe outweigh the inclusion of other, more "situational" cards?

On my end, I don't see how my claim that playing Probe has a non-negligible opportunity cost is bold. You and I both appear to agree that deviation from 60 cards in the maindeck is a mistake, so understandably, the inclusion of a card in your deck necessitates the exclusion of another card. If we wanted to look at this issue from a different standpoint, I see the question as such:

Given 10 flex slots to supplement the 50 card RUG core, is the inclusion of any number of Probe going to alter the number of other cards that would otherwise be included?
We seem to agree that 6 removal spells is the minimum we would run, so really that's 8 flex slots.

Here it's worth exploring the second point: what exactly is the benefit to running Probe and how do we value it relative to other cards?

My opinion on Probe's information is pretty similar to yours - I think the information is helpful for sure in guiding decision making, but the most relevant situation I can think of where the information is relevant is turn 1, when you decide whether to cantrip, lay down Delver, or hold up Stifle/Pierce/Bolt. Besides assessing quality of hands in combo matchups and determining whether to drop shields to deploy a goyf, these are the main situations where I see the information as being of significant value. It's basically training wheels, and I agree with you with that assessment. The information aspect in most other matchups begins to lose relevance over the course of the game as both players make land drops and play out cards, so my impression is that this would incentivize us to play more rather than fewer Probes to see it more often in our initial 7 and maximize this benefit, especially when you consider that there's not much else to Probe otherwise.

Probe as a cantrip is crud by Legacy standards, since it sees one card compared to other cantrips. Keeping a hand and factoring Probe as a card to improve your card quality is a mistake since it replaces itself with a single unknown card, so you can't evaluate Probe as a cantrip in the same vein as Preordain. It won't dig you into lands or action the same way.

To tie it all together, given that you'd likely want to play Probe at least as a 3 of, if not a 4 of to maximize the number seen in your opening hand, I don't see Probe as something I would want to include to the exclusion of, say, Spell Pierces and Spell Snares, or an 11th creature, or a Preordain, or a 7th removal spell, to mention what the Probes are competing for space with. I personally feel that I would rather increase the amount of relevant interaction in my deck than include Probe.

As you and I both agree, the minor synergy of accelerating threshold and increasing sorcery count for goyf barely factors in this decision, and the life loss is definitely not negligible. These are just my opinions though, and I definitely respect that other pilots have successfully run Probe in RUG Delver to success. It's not wrong to play Probe in RUG Delver, but the way I think about RUG Delver leads me to think I'd rather play other cards instead of Probe.

[kombatkiwi]

I still don't think you get it

If probe didn't cost life, the only drawbacks are metagame considerations, e.g:
- It is bad against tax effects because it's typically not good value for 1 mana
- It's bad against Chalice because it costs 1 (but this is only a meaningful drawback if you would be playing cards with other CMC instead)
[NB] replacing 'actual cards' with 0-mana cyclers does make mulligan decisions harder, which is another slightly relevant downside, but it's worth remembering that often when this argument against probe has been made in the past, it's for decks like Charbelcher where the specific contents of the opening hand is much more important.

Apart from these insignificant downsides, no-life probe has all the benefits of actual-probe:
- Puts another card in your yard for threshold/delve
- Gives you info on the opponent's hand
- If it's replacing lands or creatures in the list then it increases the % of Delver flips
- Most importantly, replaces itself. For 0 mana. YOU GET TO PLAY A 56 CARD DECK

If you definitely, confidently, 100% wouldn't go over 60 cards to play more removal spells or more spell pierces or whatever,
Then surely you must be willing to consider playing 59 cards to ensure you draw your best cards more often?
You seem to be suggesting that no, exactly 60 cards is the most optimal configuration to win games. Isn't it convenient that somehow that is also exactly the minimum amount of cards that the DCI allows? What a coincidence...


Probe as a cantrip is crud by Legacy standards, since it sees one card compared to other cantrips.
OTHER CANTRIPS COST MANA

[rlesko]

Kiwi, are you supportive of Gitaxian Probe or no? I was having a hard time determining your stance on the matter from your posts.

My thoughts on probe are that the slots in our deck are too precious - there are much more impactful cards than probe.

The whole comparison about a 56 card deck is pretty wrong, IMO. Of course, theoretically speaking, a 56 card deck would be better than a 60 card deck because you would have a higher probability of drawing better cards. However, comparing a 56 card deck to a 60 card deck with 4 probes is quite disingenuous. When you draw an opening hand with probe its difficult for it to be evaluated - since you don't know what you'll draw off the probe (even discounting the fact that you'll pay 2 life). With 56 cards, you can build your decks manabase and creature count around that. With 60 cards and 4 "cycle spells", you still have to design your deck with 60 cards in mind, as you may not draw the "cyclers".

Grixis delver benefits from probe on 2 other axes - 1. cast triggers for young pyro and 2. cabal therapy (in addition to fueling the graveyard for gurmag, whereas we fuel the graveyard for mongoose / goyf). So consider that when evaluating why its such a good spell for grixis, but not a great spell for RUG.

[BeetsandOlives]

Here's another way to view the Probe issue and deckspace considerations, if you don't understand my line of reasoning.

Remember the controversy years ago about including fetches in every deck because of the argument that thinning the deck of lands enables you to draw over action over the course of a game? Including Probe purely to thin your deck in this fashion is reminiscent.

Consider this scenario: you're on the draw and you have a deck with 4 Bolts for removal only because you cut cards to fit 4 Probe. Your opponent resolves turn 1 DRS and you don't have a Bolt in your starting 7.

Without getting too involved in the statistics, as I'm not a statistician, the odds of you drawing a Bolt as your first draw of the game are 4/53, or 7.5%. Even if you go with the very simplistic view of Probes decreasing your deck size to 56, your odds of topping a Bolt go up to 4/49, which is a mere 8.1%. This is most likely an incorrect treatment of the numbers, but this is also a best case view of how the numbers would be given your interpretation of how Probes are supposed to increase the likelihood of drawing live.

As an additional calculation, the odds of Pondering into a Bolt on turn 1 don't significantly increase with this comparison, going from a 25.6% to a 27.2% success rate when comparing deck size of 52 vs. 48 respectively.

This is because decreases to deck size, or the denominator, are almost negligible, especially when factoring the life loss associated with fetchlands and Probe, which you yourself have also concurred with as being significant. What isn't negligible is changes to the number of actual hits, or the business spells. If you run 6 removal spells, the hit rate goes to 6/53 or 11.3%, which is more significant a bump than going from 4/53 to 4/49.

As I've stated before and rlesko is saying, slots in RUG Delver are very precious. The decklist is very tight, so every inclusion has to count. Diluting your deck with cards that don't do enough to warrant their inclusion is not something I personally am a fan of.

If your line of reasoning was one more agreed upon, more decks would run Probe and Mishra's/Urza's Bauble, but most decks don't because of the need to run cards with actual relevant text.

I really have no idea why you're getting so worked up over this debate, but we can agree to disagree.

[now]

If your line of reasoning was one more agreed upon, more decks would run Probe and Mishra's/Urza's Bauble, but most decks don't because of the need to run cards with actual relevant text.

I’d rather play Urza’s Bauble than Gitaxian Probe. It at least feeds Tarmogoyf with a less common card type…

[kombatkiwi]

Kiwi, are you supportive of Gitaxian Probe or no? I was having a hard time determining your stance on the matter from your posts.


I don't think probe is good in RUG. I don't think the benefits you get out of it outweigh the life loss. This is the main drawback to the card (the life loss). I have identified other minor drawbacks in my previous post. To reiterate:
- Bad against chalice (but only if you were going to replace it with non-CMC-1 cards)
- Bad against Thalia/Thorn (But so are all other cantrips/cheap spells)
- Makes mulligans slightly more awkward by being a random cantrip

If you removed the life loss from probe (so it can be cast for either {U} or {0}) then I think that the benefits of Probe would now outweigh these drawbacks, I would immediately start testing 4 and I would be surprised if that was wrong.

This person seems to think there is some other drawback associated with putting free cantrips in your deck.

@BeetsandOlives Even if the math on your Bolt probability calculation is correct (I could check it myself but I have no reason to assume that it is wrong), and it turns out that now you win fewer games because you see removal spells less often, then you can cut other cards for the probes instead. Maybe it's correct to cut 1 Force of Will, or maybe 1 Stifle, as Ondrej has done. The point is that there is some optimal build with 4 SuperProbes in it that would likely have a higher win% than a build without them

To reiterate:
Nobody ever considers playing more than 60 cards; people always play the minimum number of cards they are allowed.
Why would you not play less than 60 then, if permitted? How have you arrived at the conclusion that 60 is this magic perfect number? The only legitimate argument to not to jam 4 super-probe in the deck is the 'harder mulligans' point, and I think this is outweighed by the benefits of adding to threshold, giving info, and letting you see your best cards more often.


Remember the controversy years ago about including fetches in every deck because of the argument that thinning the deck of lands enables you to draw over action over the course of a game? Including Probe purely to thin your deck in this fashion is reminiscent.

If your line of reasoning was one more agreed upon, more decks would run Probe and Mishra's/Urza's Bauble, but most decks don't because of the need to run cards with actual relevant text.

- Fetches cost life and make you weak against Stifle.
- Baubles are a free cantrip, sure, but with suspend 1, which is important
- Actual-Probe DOES cost life in order to cycle it for free

I'll say it one more time because apparently I wasn't clear enough:

REAL Gitaxian Probe, the tournament legal one, the one from New Phyrexia, that costs {U} or 2 life, is NOT good in RUG. (In my opinion). The important drawback of this card is having to pay 2 life to cycle it. If you were allowed to cast this card for {0}, I think that it would be correct to play 4 of it. I can't say with confidence what the optimal ratio of other cards would be, in this hypothetical deck, but I think that it would have a higher win% overall than a deck without SuperProbe.


When you draw an opening hand with probe its difficult for it to be evaluated - since you don't know what you'll draw off the probe (even discounting the fact that you'll pay 2 life). With 56 cards, you can build your decks manabase and creature count around that. With 60 cards and 4 "cycle spells", you still have to design your deck with 60 cards in mind, as you may not draw the "cyclers".

The first part is correct, as I have noted, I just don't believe it is significant (especially for this deck).
The second part (the bolded bit) is just wrong / doesn't make any sense. If you were 100% guaranteed to never ever draw your 4-of probe then for all intents and purposes your 'deck' would just be the other 56 cards

[ChemicalBurns]

Just to pitch in my two cents on the Probe argument, I too have never really liked it, especially as a four-of, where it is obvious in its lacklustreness as a late-game draw. To me this is due to the fundamental difference between RUG and other Delver decks in that RUG is purely reactive, while Grixis/BUG have always had proactive, tap-out components. For example, with Grixis, you have a proactive element in that you want to play Pyromancer then cast cantrips/Therapies/Probes etc etc etc. and this disrupts/beats your opponent.

Meanwhile, with RUG, since our deck is padded with less threats and more Stifle/Snare/Pierce we want to strengthen this reactive plan. This will usually mean Brainstorming in response to many things the opponent is doing and having Probe in the deck means that rather than hitting business, we find sorcery speed cantrips that are useless at that point some percentage of time. I do not think this is worth the information and Threshold-filling. Probe is very good played in the first or second turn for RUG, as a "training wheels" card to know when and where to hold up reactive spells, but past that it directly interferes with our primary game plan in certain scenarios, particularly when cantripping, and this I cannot be a fan of.

[kombatkiwi]

Brainstorming in response to many things the opponent is doing and having Probe in the deck means that rather than hitting business, we find sorcery speed cantrips that are useless
That is another decent point that nobody has mentioned yet

There can also be a similar awkward situation when you Ponder looking for something specific and see Probe in the top 3.

These points make it less likely that Probe would be correct even if it was totally free (but have nothing to do with the deck-thinning argument)

[rlesko]

The second part (the bolded bit) is just wrong / doesn't make any sense. If you were 100% guaranteed to never ever draw your 4-of probe then for all intents and purposes your 'deck' would just be the other 56 cards

Last thing I'll say on the matter, then we can move on- what I mean is that you (for example) could not start cutting lands if you slot 4 probes in the deck - because if 18 lands is an optimal configuration for 60 cards, then probably <18 lands is the optimal configuration for 56.

[kombatkiwi]

Last thing I'll say on the matter, then we can move on- what I mean is that you (for example) could not start cutting lands if you slot 4 probes in the deck - because if 18 lands is an optimal configuration for 60 cards, then probably <18 lands is the optimal configuration for 56.

"You can't cut lands, because it would be optimal to be playing fewer lands"
??? [Unless this is just the mulligan point again]

[rlesko]

"You can't cut lands, because it would be optimal to be playing fewer lands"
??? [Unless this is just the mulligan point again]

Its similar to the mulligan point.

If you were truly playing 56 cards deck construction would change. But it doesn't matter how "free" a cantrip is, when you physically need 60 cards.

[JackaBo]

I am happy you are having this discussion as I have been thinking a lot about probe in Canadian.

First off a bit about me: I am pretty new to legacy, I started playing just around after the dig through time ban.
I started off with food chain, Eli Cassis style, then went through the evolution of playing Leovold and eventually Ballista, then watching the deck deterorate as delver decks became more prominent.
After that I started playing mirale and canadian for the latter half of 2017 and transitioned to Grixis delver in the beginning of 2018.
I play only in paper at the local legacy League (4 rounds once a week) and the occational paper-tournaments. The League also comes with a final at the end of each semester. I have qualified to the finals the last three times, and I believe I am a fairly good player.

My experiences from Grixis is that Git probe is very busted, even without therapy in the main deck (I run the Bob Huang 60 MD).
I also Think that Git Probe is exactly the card Canadian need, and I'll tell you why i think so.

RUG Delver is a hold-up-mana-deck. Much more so than grixis. Many spells (pierce, snare and the mighty stifle) require you to hold up mana during opponents turn.
The effects of these sells are very strong if cast at the right time, but near useless if you miss the opportunity to play them.
Becasue of this, it's common that you can not tap out turn 2 on the play or even T1 on the draw (unless you have a daze).

Now, RUG is a very lean deck and makes do with only 14 coloured lands. This is only possible with the Power of 8 cantrips. The problem is that a lot of the time you will draw an opening seven that only consists of 1 coloured mana. That hand is usually a keep if it contains a creature and some interaction.
So once you've deployed you turn 1 threat, unless you draw a land what will you do? If you're holding stifle, snare or pierce, do you dare to play ponder for Another land? If not, and they don't play into your spells, what do you do? Sometimes you can bainstorm at end of turm, but if you're holding stifle and they played a fetch you can't even afford to tap out for brainstorm at EOT.
Holding up mana for a potential play, then not playing it is a huge tempo loss in any deck but in a deck like this in particular. You want to speed through your deck to achieve threshold fast, right?

So this problem with one manan reactive spells and very few lands may sounds like very fringe corner-case sitautions, but from my experience it happens.. alot.

This is were probe shines. For one it virutally increases the land count, thus increasing the chance of a turn 2 landdrop without requiring you to tap out for ponder turn 2.
Second it gives info on wether there are juicy targets for stifle, snare and pierce and wether you need to hold up mana for them.

What else does it do? Yes, it decreases the power of your other cantrips, as it's more common to see air than the spells you are searching for.
However it can also make your bad cantrips better. If you have brainstorm locked yourself you are faster out of it if you have a probe in there. It also increases the chances of drawing your spells and cantrips as you virtually decreases the deck size. Except for th cards that you cut to make room for Probe. You also will draw more lands with 4 probes. This puts heavier strain on your brainstorms to be played optimally. In a meta with lots of wastelands having a virtual higher landcount is actually good thing.
Finally its a liability versus burn.dec and in a sense against leovold decks.

So to the hard part, what to cut. 2 of the slots come from the creaturs, right. 10 creatures is good enough and if you play Mandrils (which you should with probe) that you already run 10 threats is my guess.
Then the two last slots, either you cut one removal and one 1 mana counterspell (snare?) or you cut two counterspells (both snares?).
This means that your counter suite will be a little weaker but that you will draw fow and daze more often. With "more" fow and daze maybe it's ok to shave the maindeck dismember?
You will also draw your stifles and wastelands more often with 4 probes, so your 2 pierces and 4 Dazes will get slightly stronger.

In short; git probe
>Increases your chance of getting your crucial second landdrop
>It gives you intel on when to hold up your pierce/stifle and when to tap out for cantrips and threats
>It will increase the density of some of your best cards (at the cost of some of the more situational cards)
>It will help you achive threshold faster

[kombatkiwi]

I believe I am a fairly good player.

So once you've deployed you turn 1 threat, unless you draw a land what will you do? .... Sometimes you can bainstorm at end of turm,

@rlesko you're still not making any sense to me

[Asgarnian123]

Does anyone know what happened to thegraymerchants.com? I want to access the #RUGLyf primer but it seems like the site is down.

[ptahetep]

Hi, any results/reports from fellow RUG players at the GP?

[Meithen]

Hi, any results/reports from fellow RUG players at the GP?

Hey there, this was my first big Legacy event and also the first time I've ever played with RUG Delver. I've been following the forum for awhile but I guess now is a better time than ever to finally post.

My list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
1 Dismember
2 Spell Peirce
1 Thought Scour

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Winter Orb
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dismember
1 True-Name Nemesis

Being that it was my first time playing the deck, I wasn't expecting amazing results but was somewhat pleased to finish 4-3-1. Match-ups were Lands (L), 4c Stoneblade (D), Grixis Delver (W), Grixis Delver (W), Grixis Delver (W), Death and Taxes (W), Eldrazi (L), Aluren (L). The Tarfires were great for me, it's hard to worry about Gurmag Angler when your Tarmogoyfs are just bigger. Thought Scour was good for filling up the yard fast and being able to cantrip in the end step when I may have been holding up Stifle/Pierce/etc. One thing to note is that I boarded in TNN in 7 of my 8 rounds, so slotting one or two into the main deck would be a strong consideration in the future.

[Mammonth]

I played RUG Delver to a 12-3 finish this weekend at GP Seattle, getting my 3rd loss on camera vs Maverick in round 14 in a pretty unexciting fashion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGZRZfik6c&feature=youtu.be&t=6h55m18s.

Here's the list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dead/Gone

1 Dismember
1 Dead/Gone
2 Abrade
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Predict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void

Some notes on the list:
- 7 one-mana removals is a must in a world ruled by Deathrite Shaman
- Mandrils proved to be better than Goyf, I only missed goyfs vs Eldrazi. Opponents tended to forget about trample a lot
- I found Predict to be quite good in most of the matchups. I can't see how can the deck support running 2 in the maindeck though
- It was a first time me playing with only 3 Stifles and it actually felt correct
- 1-of Leyline is nice at stealing games here and there
- I really missed more ways to combat Anglers and other big creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Reality Smasher, but we absolutely cannot run more than 2 Dismembers. The question is how can we fit something like Roast in the sideboard

This is how my matches went:
- 3-1 vs. Grixis Delver
- 1-0 vs. Czech Pile piloted by Brad Nelson
- 1-0 vs. Miracles
- 1-0 vs. Death and Taxes
- 1-0 vs. Moon Stompy
- 0-1 vs. Eldrazi
- 1-0 vs. BR Reanimator
- 1-0 vs. Burn
- 0-1 vs. Maverick
- 1-0 vs. Aluren
- 1-0 vs. Chalice Affinity

The deck felt extremely good all weekend long. I think it is a better choice comparing to Grixis Delver, especially if both Czech Pile and Miracles remain popular. I'd be happy to discuss my card choices and the matchups vision

[kombatkiwi]

I'm surprised that you say you preferred Mandrills over Goyf based on the matchups you faced:

- 3-1 vs. Grixis Delver (Goyf better, unless you highly rate Trample vs Pyromancer)
- 1-0 vs. Czech Pile piloted by Brad Nelson (Mandrills better for Push protection & Trample over TNNs)
- 1-0 vs. Miracles (Not much difference, Mandrills slightly better)
- 1-0 vs. Death and Taxes (Debatable, see the last 1-2 pages, most people seem to think Goyf is better)
- 1-0 vs. Moon Stompy (Goyf better)
- 0-1 vs. Eldrazi (Goyf better)
- 1-0 vs. BR Reanimator (Not much difference, Tarmogoyf slightly better)
- 1-0 vs. Burn (Goyf better)
- 0-1 vs. Maverick (Mandrills possibly better, unsure)
- 1-0 vs. Aluren (Mandrills probably better for not dying to decay, trample over value creatures and possible flash/bounce Harpy nonsense)
- 1-0 vs. Chalice Affinity (Goyf better)

also:

Mandrils proved to be better than Goyf

I really missed more ways to combat Anglers and other big creatures

I will try 1 Predict instead of the maindeck Preordain I have been using

[Mammonth]

Regarding Mandrills vs Goyf in the matchups I faced, goyfs are significantly better only versus Eldrazi and Burn. Against Grixis delver it is more or less even, mandrills is much easier to play around daze and trample is also very relevant. In testing, mandrills were way better against combo decks (1 mana vs 2 mana is huge), elves (due to trample) and czech pile (cannot be killed by push/decay), that what made me play them.

[Tiago]

I played RUG Delver to a 12-3 finish this weekend at GP Seattle, getting my 3rd loss on camera vs Maverick in round 14 in a pretty unexciting fashion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGZRZfik6c&feature=youtu.be&t=6h55m18s.

Here's the list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dead/Gone

1 Dismember
1 Dead/Gone
2 Abrade
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Predict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void

Some notes on the list:
- 7 one-mana removals is a must in a world ruled by Deathrite Shaman
- Mandrils proved to be better than Goyf, I only missed goyfs vs Eldrazi. Opponents tended to forget about trample a lot
- I found Predict to be quite good in most of the matchups. I can't see how can the deck support running 2 in the maindeck though
- It was a first time me playing with only 3 Stifles and it actually felt correct
- 1-of Leyline is nice at stealing games here and there
- I really missed more ways to combat Anglers and other big creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Reality Smasher, but we absolutely cannot run more than 2 Dismembers. The question is how can we fit something like Roast in the sideboard

This is how my matches went:
- 3-1 vs. Grixis Delver
- 1-0 vs. Czech Pile piloted by Brad Nelson
- 1-0 vs. Miracles
- 1-0 vs. Death and Taxes
- 1-0 vs. Moon Stompy
- 0-1 vs. Eldrazi
- 1-0 vs. BR Reanimator
- 1-0 vs. Burn
- 0-1 vs. Maverick
- 1-0 vs. Aluren
- 1-0 vs. Chalice Affinity

The deck felt extremely good all weekend long. I think it is a better choice comparing to Grixis Delver, especially if both Czech Pile and Miracles remain popular. I'd be happy to discuss my card choices and the matchups vision


First, congratulations! You did a good job there.. I like you list, but 1 LEYLINE OF THE VOID? Really? Tell me about it, I am really disturbed.

[Shoe555]

I played RUG Delver to a 12-3 finish this weekend at GP Seattle, getting my 3rd loss on camera vs Maverick in round 14 in a pretty unexciting fashion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxGZRZfik6c&feature=youtu.be&t=6h55m18s.

Here's the list:

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dead/Gone

1 Dismember
1 Dead/Gone
2 Abrade
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Predict
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void

Some notes on the list:
- 7 one-mana removals is a must in a world ruled by Deathrite Shaman
- Mandrils proved to be better than Goyf, I only missed goyfs vs Eldrazi. Opponents tended to forget about trample a lot
- I found Predict to be quite good in most of the matchups. I can't see how can the deck support running 2 in the maindeck though
- It was a first time me playing with only 3 Stifles and it actually felt correct
- 1-of Leyline is nice at stealing games here and there
- I really missed more ways to combat Anglers and other big creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Reality Smasher, but we absolutely cannot run more than 2 Dismembers. The question is how can we fit something like Roast in the sideboard

This is how my matches went:
- 3-1 vs. Grixis Delver
- 1-0 vs. Czech Pile piloted by Brad Nelson
- 1-0 vs. Miracles
- 1-0 vs. Death and Taxes
- 1-0 vs. Moon Stompy
- 0-1 vs. Eldrazi
- 1-0 vs. BR Reanimator
- 1-0 vs. Burn
- 0-1 vs. Maverick
- 1-0 vs. Aluren
- 1-0 vs. Chalice Affinity

The deck felt extremely good all weekend long. I think it is a better choice comparing to Grixis Delver, especially if both Czech Pile and Miracles remain popular. I'd be happy to discuss my card choices and the matchups vision

Congrats on the finish, always good to see Canadian top the big events.

I'd like to know more about Predict and how you typically set it up. In the feature against Maverick it was stuck in your hand the whole game, which is one of the big fears that I have of the card. How often did you find yourself cycling it blind? Are you supposed to ever? In what matchups do you go up to two? Cheers.

[ptahetep]

First, congratulations! You did a good job there.. I like you list, but 1 LEYLINE OF THE VOID? Really? Tell me about it, I am really disturbed.

Great job! Congrats on the finish! I am also curious about the single leyline. How aggressive do you go for it when you do? Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GoatLust]

Long time lurker, but have been playing the deck since 2016.

Went 10-0-2 in Legacy challenges this weekend at the Milwaukee Open.

The two draws were with friends I rode up with. (Stoneblade and Sneak and Show)

I can go into detail of overall gameplan / decklist for those interested, but here's what I faced:

Challenge 1:
Elves 2 - 0
Charbelcher 2 - 0
Grixis Delver 2 - 0
Friend on SnS - ID

Challenge 2:
DnT 2 - 0
BR Reanimator 2 - 1
Tin Fins 2 - 0
Aggro Loam 2 - 0

Challenge 3:
BR Reanimator 2 -1
Grixis Reanimator 2 - 0
Czech Pile 2 - 0
Friend on Stoneblade ID

Overall I made some tight plays and Ground Seal was an amazing SB card this weekend. Being more patient with BS and Ponder has gone a long way in improving my win rate, lol.

[Mammonth]

One Leyline is pretty good, it gives you free wins vs Reanimator and Dredge more often than not. At GP, I kept a hand with no lands but with a leyline on the draw and won easily. The thing is that against reanimator on the draw even surgicals don't work sometimes, and Leyline locks them out of the game. I think it is better than 3rd Surgical or Grafdigger's Cage. However, I would not play less than 3 gravehate cards in SB

I play blind Predict about 25% of the time, mostly to fill graveyard for goose and mandrills. It is not hard to set it up, slowrolling it is usually a good plan unless we need to draw an out to something asap. It requires slightly different fetchland cracking strategy, e.g. when I side second Predict in, I tend to crack fetchland to have 2 duals before playing brainstorms/ponders

[Tiago]

Long time lurker, but have been playing the deck since 2016.

Went 10-0-2 in Legacy challenges this weekend at the Milwaukee Open.

The two draws were with friends I rode up with. (Stoneblade and Sneak and Show)

I can go into detail of overall gameplan / decklist for those interested, but here's what I faced:

Challenge 1:
Elves 2 - 0
Charbelcher 2 - 0
Grixis Delver 2 - 0
Friend on SnS - ID

Challenge 2:
DnT 2 - 0
BR Reanimator 2 - 1
Tin Fins 2 - 0
Aggro Loam 2 - 0

Challenge 3:
BR Reanimator 2 -1
Grixis Reanimator 2 - 0
Czech Pile 2 - 0
Friend on Stoneblade ID

Overall I made some tight plays and Ground Seal was an amazing SB card this weekend. Being more patient with BS and Ponder has gone a long way in improving my win rate, lol.

Where we can find your decklist? I searched it no web but couldn't be able to found it.

[Tiago]

One Leyline is pretty good, it gives you free wins vs Reanimator and Dredge more often than not. At GP, I kept a hand with no lands but with a leyline on the draw and won easily. The thing is that against reanimator on the draw even surgicals don't work sometimes, and Leyline locks them out of the game. I think it is better than 3rd Surgical or Grafdigger's Cage. However, I would not play less than 3 gravehate cards in SB

I play blind Predict about 25% of the time, mostly to fill graveyard for goose and mandrills. It is not hard to set it up, slowrolling it is usually a good plan unless we need to draw an out to something asap. It requires slightly different fetchland cracking strategy, e.g. when I side second Predict in, I tend to crack fetchland to have 2 duals before playing brainstorms/ponders

Have you consider use faerie macabre over leyline? The chances of a single leyline be in your open-hand are extremely low.

[GoatLust]

Where we can find your decklist? I searched it no web but couldn't be able to found it.

I think you're thinking of the Legacy Classic. They don't post Challenge decks.

Anyway, here's the list.

Creatures: 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tarmogoyf

Instants + Sorceries: 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Fire // Ice
1 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

Lands: 18
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ground Seal
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Dead / Gone
1 Rough / Tumble
1 Standstill

[JackaBo]

I think you're thinking of the Legacy Classic. They don't post Challenge decks.

Anyway, here's the list.

Creatures: 11
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tarmogoyf

Instants + Sorceries: 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Fire // Ice
1 Spell Snare
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

Lands: 18
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ground Seal
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Dead / Gone
1 Rough / Tumble
1 Standstill
That standstill is awesome. I like your MD too. I like 7 "bolts" and 2 probes.

[GoatLust]

That standstill is awesome. I like your MD too. I like 7 "bolts" and 2 probes.

Thanks! Standstill is a great card on the play after landing a threat. Kinda a pet card, too. I've tried 2 before but that felt clunky.

The Git Probe split felt correct. I used to run 4, but nixed 2 for 1 Spell Snare and 1 Fire / Ice. I would often board them out once I knew what I was playing against.

Hydroblast is a hedge against how much Moon based decks I've been running into lately. But didn't see any this weekend.

7 kill spells is def the way to go, and in the current meta I wouldn't go with less than 6.

[Danzan]

Hi Folks,

Kept meaning to finish my GP Madrid report and couldn't find time! GP Madrid was a team GP and it's a little far off now but here are the high level points:

- We missed cash on breakers (28th place, 9-5 finish, team tourneys are 14 rounds) and overall I had a decent tournament, wailing on pile players and had a good run against Grixis decks. Losses came to Lands, BUG Delver, 2/4 Grixis Delver opps and 1/4 Pile opps (yep, that's 8/14 matches vs. Pile or Grixis.) Other wins were vs. Jeskai Blade, Burn, SnS and ANT. Did not finish my camera match (here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/238303019?t=25m20s) for all matches, here (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/238303019?t=45m45s) for legacy G2 only) vs. Grixis Pyro (because my team mates are studs) where we were 1-1 going into G3 (beware, terrible legacy commentary ahead.)

- I went with a Goyf build after testing both Apes and Goyfs for months. I decided that folks were going down on push and that Goyf would be a good choice for the weekend. (I also thought I'd play against more Burn and Eldrazi with this being a team tournament - this was incorrect.) This did pay off though, I beat up a bunch of pile players favouring bolts for the weekend. Going forward I'm back on the Apes, it's just so much better than Goyf when you do meet a push deck (especially BUG Delver that also has Decays!), better against combo, burn/eldrazi just aren't prevalent enough and they're very similar in many other matchups (big green idiot, bad against plow, etc.) I might consider a single SB Goyf if your meta calls for it.

- I played 2 Winter Orb in the side as I expected more Miracles and wanted a tool vs. Lands - I suspected that a deep run would require beating up some lands players, again this was a team tournament assumption. Played Lands only once, lost a in tight G3 without seeing Orb, shrug. I'm off it and back on to Loam/Ring last few weeks.

- Spell Snare was a superstar, no surprises there. Don't play less than 2 in my opinion.

- Nikolas Labahn (good Euro Legacy player) was the Pile player that beat me, I found out after the game that he was on a build with a ton of bolts and no pushes. Felt vindicated in my choices but sideboarding was a bit of a guessing game where I brought all my Goyfs back in G3 when I was sure after losing G2 to some hot bolt, bolt/snap/bolt action after fighting over something the previous turn and taking 8 from my Library earlier in the game. Great games. Rest of his team was the Goertzen brothers and they made decent cash finish.

- At X-2 going into Day 2 we played against Dominguez/Calcano/Mengucci. Dominguez was my opp on BUG Delver and this is where my build was miserable. Goyf is so incredible bad in this matchup, dying to push, decay and very daze-able. We had a good 3 game match but he came out on top. We won the Jund mirror in the middle. Standard was interesting (sorry, boring Standard incoming, tune out if you don't care) we were were on Mono Red vs. UB and we put them in a position where they had to draw Hazoret removal that very turn or lose to Hazoret activations when we untap (board was stable with a Scarab God and a Gearhulk.) They almost decided to reanimate something (not sure why) but Mengucci argued to draw with mana avail to cast whatever is there and they drew Coup! Outs were only Coup and Contempt as nothing in yard for hulks to flashback. Great matches and they unfortunately missed on top 4, coming 5th.

- Single SB Counterspell was good. Great in the grindy matchups when you need to hit stuff blasts can't and great in the combo matchups. It showed up vs. SnS and ANT at some very key moments for me to take games and subsequently matches.

This (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/884072#paper) is my list going forward and I'm testing hard for GP Birmingham. It's basically Sean Brown's (ChemicalBurns) so shoutout to him with only 1 main deck Predict, 1 TNN taking its place and 1 Staticaster in side with the room created by that 2nd TNN. A good chunk of SB slots are up for debate but I'm pretty locked in on the main deck, single Predict has been stellar.

I have also created a RUG Discord channel! I just created this today so it's a little tumbleweedy but feel free to join (https://discord.gg/VYWW2ND) and we can get some discussion drummed up in there and share lists, data and results.

Cheers folks.

[rlesko]

Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!

[Danzan]

Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!

I feel you on Mandrills, "big green idiot" was probably the wrong term but I just meant that there's common drawbacks and boons between the cards compared to your other threats (good vs. bolt, bad vs. plow, etc.)

What's your most recent list look like rlesko? I've not entirely given up on the Goyf/Orb build and I like to have a good version in my pocket if I want to use it. I played this (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/802002#paper) at Madrid.

[Danzan]

Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!

Further questions... How do you find the BUG Delver matchup as a Goyf player? What decks are you siding in Orb against? Just want to see if there's any unexpected positive matchups for it there.

[rlesko]

Gotcha...yea fair enough. Both are bad vs plow agreed. But goyf doesn't nuke your GY and shrink your geese at least :)

I bring in winter orb against miracles, lands, stoneblade decks, stompy decks, and aether vial decks. I've been experimenting with it vs sneak & show but don't have conclusive testing on that. Obviously if you bring it in against vial decks, you must make a priority to destroy / force their vials. The part I like the most about Orb is that, I feel like I can execute the RUG mana denial plan + soft countermage vs any deck. When stifle is bad and / or my opponent plays an excess of basics I want an opportunity to tax their mana still. And it converts the "worst" late game top deck (Daze) into one of the best cards you can draw. This has a cascade effect of freeing up sideboard slots.

Last I played a bug delver deck he was playing like 3 abrupt decay and 2 push. I find it pretty easy to screw with their colors via stifle / wasteland. Playing snares is hugely important here as we have a much harder problem with resolved goyfs than they do. They are kind of a weak midrange deck so its possible to get "under" them.

My latest list is very similar to the one you posted. I play preordain instead of Sylvan Library main, and tarfire over seal of fire. In the sideboard, the only difference is I play 2 Ancient Grudge instead of Abrade split, and a Seal of Fire instead of the Flusterstorm.

[now]

My latest list is very similar to the one you posted. I play preordain instead of Sylvan Library main, and tarfire over seal of fire. In the sideboard, the only difference is I play 2 Ancient Grudge instead of Abrade split, and a Seal of Fire instead of the Flusterstorm.

Sorry, I’m probably missing something obvious here, but the list linked to at MTGGoldfish doesn’t align with the changes you mention. What list are your referring to?

[rlesko]

Sorry, I’m probably missing something obvious here, but the list linked to at MTGGoldfish doesn’t align with the changes you mention. What list are your referring to?


I played this (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/802002#paper) at Madrid.

[now]

Thanks! I was looking in all the wrong places.

[JackaBo]

Wow, asian / eurpoean meta must really be a lot different from the american meta for this many RUG players to have problems with push...

But btw, hooting mandrills doesn't fill the role of "big green idiot". You gain some % points against pile, but as you noted I believe eldrazi is not winnable without goyf, and burn suffers too. Overall I think having goyfs in your deck makes your deck more well rounded, but don't want to rehash the goyf vs mandrills debate

Bummer that you didn't see your winter orbs, I would encourage you not to give up on those yet!

I also get this wow effect when watching american tournaments on stream: all those grixis delver. In europe it's more pile and pushes. I love some w orb too, that's the very reason to go Canadian IMO.

[Danzan]

Gotcha...yea fair enough. Both are bad vs plow agreed. But goyf doesn't nuke your GY and shrink your geese at least :)

For sure!


I bring in winter orb against miracles, lands, stoneblade decks, stompy decks, and aether vial decks. I've been experimenting with it vs sneak & show but don't have conclusive testing on that. Obviously if you bring it in against vial decks, you must make a priority to destroy / force their vials. The part I like the most about Orb is that, I feel like I can execute the RUG mana denial plan + soft countermage vs any deck. When stifle is bad and / or my opponent plays an excess of basics I want an opportunity to tax their mana still. And it converts the "worst" late game top deck (Daze) into one of the best cards you can draw. This has a cascade effect of freeing up sideboard slots.

Yep, this is what I was doing, made the DnT matchup much more palatable. JonLX used to side in Orb vs. Sneak and Show (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/canadian-threshold-sideboarding-guide/) and I think it's worth exploring as it gives them a hard time rebuilding after we've won a fight. All your other points around Orb are great and a big reason why I brought them to the tournament. There's just so much Pile here and it's not useful in the Delver mirrors, I ended up siding them in in only 2 matches out of 14.


Last I played a bug delver deck he was playing like 3 abrupt decay and 2 push. I find it pretty easy to screw with their colors via stifle / wasteland. Playing snares is hugely important here as we have a much harder problem with resolved goyfs than they do. They are kind of a weak midrange deck so its possible to get "under" them.

Yep, Snare is great against them. Screwing colours can be so tough on the draw and I feel it's more devastating when we can't do that compared to vs. Grixis. This play pattern is horrible: T1 they play Shaman, T1 you kill it (even though you have Snare in hand), T2 they hymn you.
I know what you mean about going under though, need to play the matchup more if I'm honest and I plan on testing it a lot more before Birmingham with and without Goyfs.


My latest list is very similar to the one you posted. I play preordain instead of Sylvan Library main, and tarfire over seal of fire. In the sideboard, the only difference is I play 2 Ancient Grudge instead of Abrade split, and a Seal of Fire instead of the Flusterstorm.

What do you find attractive about Tarfire? Instant speed is great but I found the ability to play Seal on the play before they have Daze access invaluable. (Obviously the DRS not being able to eat it point is valid too but this is known.) I feel I would rather have 2 Seals in the 75 before a Tarfire but I'm probably missing something.

[Danzan]

Thanks to everyone who has joined the Discord so far! Nice and lively in there already with some good discussions.

If anybody else would like to join, fire in (https://discord.gg/VYWW2ND).

Cheers folks.

[now]

Thanks to everyone who has joined the Discord so far! Nice and lively in there already with some good discussions.

Why do we need a second place to discuss what we’re already discussing here?

[rlesko]

Yep, this is what I was doing, made the DnT matchup much more palatable. JonLX used to side in Orb vs. Sneak and Show (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/canadian-threshold-sideboarding-guide/) and I think it's worth exploring as it gives them a hard time rebuilding after we've won a fight. All your other points around Orb are great and a big reason why I brought them to the tournament. There's just so much Pile here and it's not useful in the Delver mirrors, I ended up siding them in in only 2 matches out of 14.


Yep, Snare is great against them. Screwing colours can be so tough on the draw and I feel it's more devastating when we can't do that compared to vs. Grixis. This play pattern is horrible: T1 they play Shaman, T1 you kill it (even though you have Snare in hand), T2 they hymn you.
I know what you mean about going under though, need to play the matchup more if I'm honest and I plan on testing it a lot more before Birmingham with and without Goyfs.


What do you find attractive about Tarfire? Instant speed is great but I found the ability to play Seal on the play before they have Daze access invaluable. (Obviously the DRS not being able to eat it point is valid too but this is known.) I feel I would rather have 2 Seals in the 75 before a Tarfire but I'm probably missing something.


The problem I found with Winter Orb vs sneak and Show is that normally the game is won or lost after the big fight. Typically all resources are expended and both players are basically hellbent (except Sneak player probably has a griselbrand in his hand). Winter Orb only lines up against those draws of theirs where they have a bunch of enables and a lack of countermagic. In my limited testing I often died with Winter Orb in hand, never having the opportunity to deploy it profitably.

To your comment about Snare, I actually think it may be correct to let shaman live for a turn and leave spell snare up. Obviously it depends on a number of factors - did you play a fetch or a dual? (e.g. are you insulated vs a wasteland or not), do you have soft countermagic or hard countermagic (bolt + daze vs bolt + snare)? Deathrite is kill on sight but it is not uncommon to play "control" the first few turns (let them play our their spells and counter kill all of them, then deploy 2 creatures in the same turn taking all the tempo back)

And against an unknown opponent I prefer instant speed burn spells. If I'm against an unknown opponent I would not necessarily lead with seal of fire -> pass. It gives them a lot of information and you are still blind. If you are playing a combo deck they no longer have to respect spell pierce / snare, if you're playing a creature deck they can choose what their worst one drop is. I would save it with the intention of brainstorming it back later, bluffing more spells, and hiding more information.

[Danzan]

The problem I found with Winter Orb vs sneak and Show is that normally the game is won or lost after the big fight. Typically all resources are expended and both players are basically hellbent (except Sneak player probably has a griselbrand in his hand). Winter Orb only lines up against those draws of theirs where they have a bunch of enables and a lack of countermagic. In my limited testing I often died with Winter Orb in hand, never having the opportunity to deploy it profitably.

I see what you mean with regards to the play patterns, obviously it depends if you have a threat or not but you're making mulligan decisions with that in mind. We probably have better tools in the 75 here.


To your comment about Snare, I actually think it may be correct to let shaman live for a turn and leave spell snare up. Obviously it depends on a number of factors - did you play a fetch or a dual? (e.g. are you insulated vs a wasteland or not), do you have soft countermagic or hard countermagic (bolt + daze vs bolt + snare)? Deathrite is kill on sight but it is not uncommon to play "control" the first few turns (let them play our their spells and counter kill all of them, then deploy 2 creatures in the same turn taking all the tempo back)

Yep, hand is very dictating here. I guess I just fear them playing a 3 mana creature if I don't have Daze but I'm not losing that mana if I can still kill the shaman but still behind on tempo. But you're right, very dependant on hand and many other factors. I think I was just remembering a particularly bad game where I had to make this play.


And against an unknown opponent I prefer instant speed burn spells. If I'm against an unknown opponent I would not necessarily lead with seal of fire -> pass. It gives them a lot of information and you are still blind. If you are playing a combo deck they no longer have to respect spell pierce / snare, if you're playing a creature deck they can choose what their worst one drop is. I would save it with the intention of brainstorming it back later, bluffing more spells, and hiding more information.

This makes a lot of sense. I was thinking more about playing it out T1 postboard but being in the dark, on the play in G1 is a big one. Can still grow Goyf to 5/6 vs. Eldrazi and the like that don't play DRS. I'll test it, as I said I'm keen to give Goyf another shot before Birmingham.


Why do we need a second place to discuss what we’re already discussing here?

I'm absolutely not saying we stop discussing things here. As you can see I'm still posting :)
Some folks prefer a different format and/or are long time readers that don't necessarily want to post but would be happy using chat. Plus there's channels for more casual talk, etc. which don't really work through this medium. Phone app does make things very easy as well and using it while commuting, etc. is great.
Essentially I'm not trying to replace this thread at all, I want to build on it if anything and expand the RUG family! It might not be for everyone but that's absolutely fine.

[rlesko]

Thought this card was interesting: https://media.wizards.com/2018/dom/en_47k2GBWc6i.png

Destroy chalice -> wasteland you

Destroy aether vial -> play a delver / goose

[Ralf]

I do like the following setup:

4 delver
4 tarmo
2 mandrils
1 clique

2 snare / 1 pierce split
1 become immense as a dreadful weapon
1 dismember / 1 fire-ice / 1 forked bolt

Become immense has been a killer so far.

[rlesko]

BI is pretty spicy, Ralf.

How do you beat Sword to Plowshare decks with that creature configuration?

[Ralf]

BI is pretty spicy, Ralf.

How do you beat Sword to Plowshare decks with that creature configuration?

STP is at a low level so is CB.
You are playing 11 creatures vs 4 stp 4 terminus 3 snapcaster 2 CB.
You have access to 4 stifle that will mainly target terminus triggers and snap triggers.

From testing I dropped only a few % vs miracle instead of playing goose.

Anyway I started from there (and miracle was at his peak)
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12671&d=273417&f=LE

[Hrothgar]

Hi guys, I will link to you the invitation that does not expire for the specific Discord server of Canadian Threshold (RUG Delver).

All the tips to improve the channel are welcome.

https://discord.gg/VYWW2ND

[blablub]

Hey Guys, i need your help

I will test Sean Browns Canadian-List and i dont know how to board against Grixis Delver? Do you board out Delver in this MU too? i would like to bring in Dismember, Pyroblasts and Flusterstorms, Barbarian Ring, maybe abrade to kill their creatures? I hope you can help me :) Whats your overall plan in this MU?

[ChemicalBurns]

Hey Guys, i need your help

I will test Sean Browns Canadian-List and i dont know how to board against Grixis Delver? Do you board out Delver in this MU too? i would like to bring in Dismember, Pyroblasts and Flusterstorms, Barbarian Ring, maybe abrade to kill their creatures? I hope you can help me :) Whats your overall plan in this MU?

I will generally full shroud them, boarding out Delvers, making their Bolts useless. You need to kill everything/counter everything on site (go hard control), however, and either kill them with a shrouded threat or an unsurmountable card advantage engine (eg. Ring/Loam). Abrade is a bit too mana intensive to warrant bringing in for this match.

How I SB for it:
-4 Delver of Secrets
-2 Stifle
-2 Predict
+3 Pyroblast
+1 Life from the Loam
+1 Barbarian Ring
+2 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Counterspell/Flusterstorm/even keep a Predict or Stifle

Some people really dislike Snare since it has only a few targets, but I think with Marsh Casualties and Diabolic Edict so common in sideboards I would recommend bringing it to defend your singular threats. YMMV with Stifle, it can be excellent on the play but usually if you kill their DRS they remain mana-tight anyway and Daze/Pierce should still be live most of the game without it.

[rlesko]

Some people really dislike Snare since it has only a few targets

Crazy people. Nothing better than snaring a pyromancer while your grixis opponent has 1-2 open mana. They always reread spell snare, pause for a moment, and give you the "uh..ok" while they begrudgingly move their creature to the GY.

3 pyros + 2 edicts (minimum), maybe Marsh Casualties, maybe something weird like Jitte...

Don't board out your snares, people!

[blablub]

Thanks a lot Sean :) i'm really excited to slam some Mongoose again. Also im really interested in the Predicts. its a fresh idea. Do you think Grixis is in our Favour? its the most played Deck in my meta so i'm a little scared

[ChemicalBurns]

Thanks a lot Sean :) i'm really excited to slam some Mongoose again. Also im really interested in the Predicts. its a fresh idea. Do you think Grixis is in our Favour? its the most played Deck in my meta so i'm a little scared

It think it's quite close. Honestly, I feel like it depends on the number of early threats they have. A DRS-dense hand means you need to have removal after removal or else be buried in their mana acceleration. Their normal hands are very beatable though - kill DRS, ruin their shitty mana base, play a threat they cannot deal with and make sure Angler or TNN don't stick. We have a big edge in that none of our threats can be killed post-board, are better at mana denial (when DRS is dead) and all of their threats bar True-Name and Angler are very soft (and Angler dies to Dismember if you're running it). We also have better post-board CA engines (Library, Loam, Predict, while they only have stuff like Lili, Last Hope which are pretty meh), but if they overwhelm us with threats in the early game we can struggle to find enough removal and fall very behind. As always in Delver pseudo-mirrors too, play/draw is very important.


Crazy people. Nothing better than snaring a pyromancer while your grixis opponent has 1-2 open mana. They always reread spell snare, pause for a moment, and give you the "uh..ok" while they begrudgingly move their creature to the GY.

3 pyros + 2 edicts (minimum), maybe Marsh Casualties, maybe something weird like Jitte...

Don't board out your snares, people!

Wise words ;D

[kombatkiwi]

I think Grixis has the better matchup G1 (especially if you aren't playing Tarmogoyf) and RUG has the better matchup after sideboarding

[ethanet]

Went 6-1-1 (drew the finals) with RUG Delver at a local Legacy tournament this weekend. This was my list:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose
1x True-Name Nemesis
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce
1x Dismember
1x Seal of Fire
1x Tarfire
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
----------------------
3x Pyroblast
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Abrade
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Rough//Tumble
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Price of Progress
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Faerie Macbre
1x Flusterstorm
1x Izzet Staticaster


Rd 1: Lost 0-2 to Dragon Stompy. Got absolutely smashed by an early Trinisphere and Blood Moon both games.
Rd 2: Won 2-1 vs Burn. I had a fast start with counter back up in games where I was on the play.
Rd 3: Won 2-1 vs Miracles. Fast, aggressive starts games 2 and 3 along with blind Counterbalance flips that went in my favour.
Rd 4: Won 2-1 vs Storm. Opponent didn't realise how Stifle interacts with the storm trigger game 1. Game 2 opponent Duress'd and goes off. Game 3 I Stifled his fetch and destroyed his Underground Sea.
Rd 5: Won 2-1 vs Sneak and Show. Stifled the Annihilator trigger from Emrakul, took 15 damage down to 2 life, and then cracked back for lethal. Game 3 had multiple counters and pressure from Tarmogoyf.
Finished the swiss in 3rd
Top 8: Won 2-0 vs Dragon Stompy. Got my revenge for my round 1 loss. Had plenty of counters for Blood Moon and Chalice.
Top 4: Won 2-1 vs Steel Stompy. Had removal for the early Ravager and counters for the tax artifacts in Games 1 and 3.
Finals: Split vs Sneak and Show

I think I'll run back the deck in a couple of weeks at the next Legacy tournament here. Some things I would change would be cutting an Ancient Grudge for a Destructive Revelry or something else that can also hit Enchantments. Otherwise, I really liked the 75. I'll keep running Tarfire and Seal of Fire to help grow Tarmogoyf in case I run into a Gurmag Angler deck.

[jmlima]

Haven't touched this deck in aeons, but, is it good in present-day open meta (think MTGO)? Or merely fun to play?

[JackaBo]

Went 6-1-1 (drew the finals) with RUG Delver at a local Legacy tournament this weekend. This was my list:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose
1x True-Name Nemesis
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce
1x Dismember
1x Seal of Fire
1x Tarfire
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
----------------------
3x Pyroblast
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Abrade
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Rough//Tumble
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Price of Progress
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Faerie Macbre
1x Flusterstorm
1x Izzet Staticaster



I like your straight forward list. No value cards to pollute your tempo plan. [emoji106][emoji2]
Did 13 creatures feel like too many? Did 7 removal feel like too many? Did you miss the two Snare?

[bigwerdz]

I started playing Can Thresh a couple months ago and have been doing pretty well in local weeklies and 1ks. Czech pile, Grixis Delver, and lands all see winnable. Miracles has been a problem for me but I’m sure that can be fixed in the sideboard. I’m not playing any truenames.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Haven't touched this deck in aeons, but, is it good in present-day open meta (think MTGO)? Or merely fun to play?

I don't think it has ever been good for Magic Online Leagues because the meta is just too diverse, but it's generally a pretty good deck for swiss tournaments if you know what the winning metagame looks like.

[jmlima]

I don't think it has ever been good for Magic Online Leagues because the meta is just too diverse, but it's generally a pretty good deck for swiss tournaments if you know what the winning metagame looks like.

Tks Jonathan. Coming from you that pretty much kills it... :cry:

[Siegmar]

Hello Guys !

I'm new here in this Thread and i would like to Post my List of Canadian, i've been playing it for about half a year so not that long to be honest and i need much more Practice with it for sure.
So here is my List, i'd like to get some review from you :)

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemsis

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
1 Tarfire
1 Abrade

Enchantments
1 Seal of Fire

Lands
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Tell me what you think, Thanks :)

[ChemicalBurns]

Hello Guys !

I'm new here in this Thread and i would like to Post my List of Canadian, i've been playing it for about half a year so not that long to be honest and i need much more Practice with it for sure.
So here is my List, i'd like to get some review from you :)

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemsis

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
1 Tarfire
1 Abrade

Enchantments
1 Seal of Fire

Lands
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Tell me what you think, Thanks :)

Please give us a sideboard too! Looks good so far, though I am dubious about the main deck Abrade (non-one cmc removal that doesn't go to the face I am wary of). Seems like you have way too much removal in the main deck, 7 is generally the upper-limit.

[JackaBo]

Canadian should also consider the new "grixis tech" in wild slash.
It's instant so it better fits the tempo and hold up mana plan than ie forked and chain
It can go to the face unlikely abrade
With ferocious it can push damage through against
- glacial chasm
-rip + fiels
and can push damage through if you get blocked by creatures with protection, notably
- TNN
- creature protected my MoR

[kombatkiwi]

Canadian should also consider the new "grixis tech" in wild slash.
It's instant so it better fits the tempo and hold up mana plan than ie forked and chain
It can go to the face unlikely abrade
With ferocious it can push damage through against
- glacial chasm
-rip + fiels
and can push damage through if you get blocked by creatures with protection, notably
- TNN
- creature protected my MoR

Definitely seems reasonable for the non-tarmogoyf versions

[Siegmar]

Please give us a sideboard too! Looks good so far, though I am dubious about the main deck Abrade (non-one cmc removal that doesn't go to the face I am wary of). Seems like you have way too much removal in the main deck, 7 is generally the upper-limit.

Sure! Totally Forgot that

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Hydroblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Submerge
1 Abrade
1 Forked Bolt

To the Abrade Main, i play this one mostly so i can remove a Chalice pre Board, but you are right sometimes it feels clunky . I've been testing it for about 2 months now and im not sure if it should stay in the main. The meta at my locals is pretty diverse, but it feels like i always get to face the Chalice decks.

[Qweerios]

Seal of Primordium or Destructive Revelry?

I play 1 Grudge and 2 Revelry at the moment and was wondering if Seal was strictly better/worse than Revelry or worth a split. I am leaning towards instant speed right now.

Also, anybody else plays Stifle-less? I think the cardis garbage and that playing Mongoose is the main selling point to RUG.

[Amazingxkcd]

I've won way too many games due to stifle to ever consider cutting it from mainboard. You're more than welcome to try to brew a midrange deck that doesn't use it

[kombatkiwi]

Nationals side event

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Goose

4 Bolt
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle

2 Seal of Fire
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Preordain

3 Volc
3 Trop
4 Waste
8 Fetchlands

1 Honden
1 Counterspell
1 Winter Orb
1 Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Forked Bolt
1 Pierce
2 Red Blast
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Grudge

2-0 Think Twice Miracles
2-0 Sneak and Show
0-2 Lands
0-2 Elves
1-2 Sea Stompy

Wins felt easy
G2 vs lands and elves were close but these are not good matchups
Chalice decks are a lottery

No new thoughts really
Still not a huge fan of WOrb but just grabbed whatever version of the deck I had in the drawer on the way out the door

[Darkness]

Go get them you RUG players, it's your time to shine again!

[BKclassic]

Go get them you RUG players, it's your time to shine again!

Winter Orb is going to be a house in the post-ban metagame.

[now]

Aaand we’re back!

[i_b_TRUE]

Yes! Time to play Legacy again!
I really believe these changes make RUG Delver the best Delver deck again

[ComeOnAndSlam]

Hey guys!I took RUG Delver to a third place finish at the Legacy Classic at SCG Atlanta this past weekend. The turnout was 90 players even, which meant 7 rounds of Swiss before the cut to top 8.

The list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Wild Slash
4 Daze
1 Predict
2 Dismember

4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Barbarian Ring


My list is (heavily) influenced by Sean Brown and all his excellent content on the deck. I’ve only been playing it for about 3 months, so his articles and sideboarding strategies have been immensely helpful.

I ended up going undefeated in the Swiss, ending up 5-0-2 and entering into Top 8 at 2nd seed. Matchups:

Round 1: Czech Pile [WLW]
Round 2: Storm [LWW]
Round 3: Grixis Delver [WLW]
Round 4: Miracles [LWW]
Round 5: Grixis Delver [WW]
Round 6 and 7: ID
Quarterfinals: Loam Pox [WLW]
Semifinals: Grixis Delver (my opponent from round 5) [WLL]

The plan was originally to write up a longer report, but since more than half of my tournament was against DRS decks I'm not sure how relevant that information is given the B&R news today. It was a really fun tournament, and all of my opponents were great. I actually beat both of the players who got 1st and 2nd in the Swiss, but Zach got his revenge on me in the top 4 and went on to win the whole thing. I'm happy to answer any questions you all might have.

[ChemicalBurns]

Great stuff @ComeOnAndSlam! Glad you enjoyed the list and my writing on it. I think a lot of the technology found pre-DRS ban will be excellent tools to use adapting to the format moving forward, even though I think many of us will be gravitating to Goyf-based lists as the first point of call (I personally may still be experimenting with the Monkies, just to see how relevant they are still).

Some questions:
- Thoughts on the Predict?
- Wild Slash is a spicy option I imagine inspired by recent Grixis lists. How relevant was it over an option such as Dead // Gone, be it via its damage prevention mode or ability to shoot for the face?

Also remember everyone to head to the RUG Discord for real-time chats of the deck:
https://discord.gg/VYWW2ND

[cheerios]

How long 'til we reclaim DTB?

[ComeOnAndSlam]

Thanks Sean!

I honestly didn't cast the Predict all day. I love the idea of it, but unfortunately never drew it to see if it was good. It seems like it's at its best in grindy matchups, and with BUG decks on the decline now I could see it becoming something like Loam (or Standstill!)

The Wild Slash was something I've been trying. I have always wanted 7 removal spells for DRS and that last spot has alternately been Dead / Gone, Forked Bolt, Chain Lightning, etc. I cast Wild Slash to face for lethal once during the tournament, and I almost lived the Ferocious dream in the semis against my Grixis Delver opponent. He had a tapped Gurmag and an untapped TNN, while I had a Mandrills on the board with my hand as Bolt + Slash. I could have attacked, he would block with TNN, and I would Bolt + Slash the Angler - the TNN would die and he'd take 3 damage. Sadly none of this mattered because he Dismembered my monkey the turn before!

I agree that it seems like Tarmogoyf is the way forward. I'll probably try some combination of Bolt + SoFire + Tarfire and see how that works.

I gotta say, I'm going to miss the feeling of playing RUG Delver when it wasn't as well positioned in the meta. It always felt like people were rooting for you because everyone has a soft spot for the Goose. My friend describes it as being like the legacy family's crazy uncle - it used to be successful, the fell on hard times, but now it's trying to get back to its former glory and everyone cheers it on for doing its best :)

[Tiberius42]

So is Goyf just not good enough anymore?

[KobeBryan]

So is Goyf just not good enough anymore?

Goyf is a victim of drs. But this isnt the case anymore

[kombatkiwi]

I don't think that Goyf necessarily got killed by DRS: if you couldn't get rid of your opponent's DRS it made your entire deck bad (Wasteland, Daze, Mongoose, etc). The fact that it could shrink Tarmogoyf very rarely mattered in my experience.
Whether Goyf or Mandrills is the best choice largely depends on what kind of removal spells people are playing
If mirror turns out to be a frequent occurrence then people will probably find Goyf > Mandrills (or we start seeing SB Scavenging Ooze again).
Goyf is also way better vs Eldrazi
One of the biggest reasons for Mandrills was Trample vs Elves and presumably that matchup becomes much easier with no DRS

Wild Slash is/was a fine idea but the main points for it were
- You wanted a 1-mana instant to kill your opponents turn 1 DRS when you go first and don't have a play on turn 1
- You didn't want to play Seal of Fire to do this job because your deck didn't have Tarmogoyf and you didn't want to boost your opponent's ones
- You wanted the ability to go face with it

I don't disagree that all of these points are important but I'm skeptical that the prevention-block effect would come up more than paying the kicker on Burst Lightning

Now a significant part of what made seal of fire desirable (untargetable by DRS) is gone
I still think it's a better removal spell than Tarfire but being an instant to flip your Delver is also important
I would be more inclined to play a split of each now
Alternatively Chain Lightning or something else might be more appealing now that there isn't this strict need to kill an X/2 on turn 1 all the time, but I think Goyf sizing is still relevant

[Starfouine]

I don't think that Goyf necessarily got killed by DRS: if you couldn't get rid of your opponent's DRS it made your entire deck bad (Wasteland, Daze, Mongoose, etc). The fact that it could shrink Tarmogoyf very rarely mattered in my experience.
Whether Goyf or Mandrills is the best choice largely depends on what kind of removal spells people are playing
If mirror turns out to be a frequent occurrence then people will probably find Goyf > Mandrills (or we start seeing SB Scavenging Ooze again).
Goyf is also way better vs Eldrazi
One of the biggest reasons for Mandrills was Trample vs Elves and presumably that matchup becomes much easier with no DRS

Wild Slash is/was a fine idea but the main points for it were
- You wanted a 1-mana instant to kill your opponents turn 1 DRS when you go first and don't have a play on turn 1
- You didn't want to play Seal of Fire to do this job because your deck didn't have Tarmogoyf and you didn't want to boost your opponent's ones
- You wanted the ability to go face with it

I don't disagree that all of these points are important but I'm skeptical that the prevention-block effect would come up more than paying the kicker on Burst Lightning

Now a significant part of what made seal of fire desirable (untargetable by DRS) is gone
I still think it's a better removal spell than Tarfire but being an instant to flip your Delver is also important
I would be more inclined to play a split of each now
Alternatively Chain Lightning or something else might be more appealing now that there isn't this strict need to kill an X/2 on turn 1 all the time, but I think Goyf sizing is still relevant

Hi, it's very interesting. Do you still prefer seal of fire over tarfire only because it makes goyfs even bigger with enchantment ? (even if it's a great reason)
I've been very happy with seal of fire too, but i'm been playing a lot 1 dismember main. The only situation i was sad to have it in hand, it was when dismember was my only "burn" spell in hand and had to kill deathrite T1 with it.
If there are more tempo thresh and team america these days, i'll be even more happy to have dismember for other goyfs. Now maybe we won't see that many strix, so i'm thinking about : 4 bolts, 1 dismember, 1 seal or tarfire

I played a lot again D&T, and dismember is your only way maindeck to deal with sanctum prelate if you don't have counters anymore. And if you don't counter vial, you've lost, if mother is able to leave, you've lost...

[Jonathan Alexander]

//Artifact
1 Winter Orb

//Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

//Instant
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Tarmogoyf
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Seal of Fire
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Submerge

This is an old list (July 2016), but it's a great starting point i think.

What i'm unsure about:

1. Maindeck Winter Orb / having three copies. Maybe the Miracles matchup is good enough even without Winter Orb, but depending on what else is played, you want Orbs anyway. I'd probably stick with the exact maindeck for now.

2. Three Pyroblasts. You might want to replace one with a Flusterstorm. Definitely don't trim Spell Pierces though.

3. Tarmogoyf vs. Hooting Mandrills. I would vastly prefer to play Mandrills because it's just so much better vs. pretty much all Chalice decks and, perhaps more importantly, combo. A case could be made for cutting the sideboard Tarmogoyf, but i'm not sure i'm comfortable going to eight creatures in matchups where you want to cut either Mongoose or Delver. I'll stick with three Goyfs for now.

4. Submerge. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. Can't tell for now.

5. What to replace Seal of Fire with. It really could be anything; Dead // Gone, Abrade, Vapor Snag, Forked Bolt, Blazing Volley, Electrickery, Rough // Tumble, Mind Harness or even the third Submerge.

6. How to find room for Gemstone Caverns. I don't think you want to go as far as running two copies for now, but i'm fairly certain you want at least one. I don't think you should add it before you know for sure what you can remove. Don't randomly cut things.

7. Do you want a second Surgical Extraction now? Maybe. But what i said about Caverns applies here as well: Wait a few days or weeks for the metagame to settle down a bit.

So to recap, i would play the same maindeck with this sideboard:

SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Tarmogoyf
SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Abrade
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

Abrade is a flex slot; you should rotate through different removal spells to see what works. I'm going to start testing this list at some point in the next few days.

Edit: I could very well see LoamRing being amazing going forward. Keep that option in mind.

[bl4ckwell]

I think Goyf will definitely shine with DRS banned. Plus, six mainboard removal should be enough now, I personally have been playing seven. Most likely will stick with:

4x lightning bolt
1x tarfire
1 dismember

Without grixis in the meta, also considering MB Winter orbs, and going full mana denial. Just not sure if it's worth losing 2x counter slots, and they also don't flip delver.

My current Build is :

Main (60)

Creatures (12)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
4x tarmogoyf

Spells (30)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
2x spell pierce
2x spell snare
4x lightning bolt
1x dismember
1x tarfire

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
4x polluted delta
4x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)
2x REB
1x counterspell
1x flusterstorm
2x surgical extraction
1x grafdiggers cage
1x sylvan library
2x winter orb
2x ancient grudge
1x TNN
1x dismember
1x rough/tumble


Any suggestions appreciated. ;)

[kombatkiwi]

Hi, it's very interesting. Do you still prefer seal of fire over tarfire only because it makes goyfs even bigger with enchantment ? (even if it's a great reason)
I've been very happy with seal of fire too, but i'm been playing a lot 1 dismember main. The only situation i was sad to have it in hand, it was when dismember was my only "burn" spell in hand and had to kill deathrite T1 with it.
If there are more tempo thresh and team america these days, i'll be even more happy to have dismember for other goyfs. Now maybe we won't see that many strix, so i'm thinking about : 4 bolts, 1 dismember, 1 seal or tarfire

I played a lot again D&T, and dismember is your only way maindeck to deal with sanctum prelate if you don't have counters anymore. And if you don't counter vial, you've lost, if mother is able to leave, you've lost...

The way Seal works where you can play it whenever you have a spare mana and then have a free shock up at any point for the rest of the game is very strong.

I agree that more Dismembers are potentially good, for non-1cmc removal options vs DNT I don't hate the idea of abrade either

@JA
1. From my perspective I would say that you seem to strongly overrate winter orb, every legacy deck is so efficient now, I agree that it's good against Miracles and other control decks (if such a thing even exists) but you were even recommending boarding it in vs like DNT and Eldrazi which in my experience has way too much chance of backfiring / not doing anything. I would play max 1 SB and that's it.
2. In my opinion playing more than 2 blasts is a specific anti-miracles stance, against prison/combo in general you would rather have pierce/fluster (SB counterspell is also an option but I don't think you want 2 in the 75)
3. Saying that Mandrils > Goyf vs Chalice decks is insane to me, Tarmogoyf is obviously stronger vs Eldrazi because it outsizes TKS and Smasher, and vs Moon Stompy Mandrills neatly dies to Chandra -3. I agree that being able to cast Mandrills for 1 mana makes it slightly better against combo but it's not ahead by much because sometimes being able to deploy Goyf earlier (and Goyf = more power = faster clock) is also relevant.
4. Never really liked this card, might be better now if there are more Goyf/Knight decks
5. I like Abrade and I also like the wide removal (Electrickery/Volley/Forked Bolt) because I expect an uptick in DNT and Elves loses a 2-toughness creature
6. This is a spicy idea but I am not on board, the decks this is seen in Modern have a use for colorless mana if you don't open with it
7. I think you needed 2 GY hate cards before, with DRS gone this seems even more necessary, if you weren't going to play Loam then I would consider Ground Seal but maybe this isn't worth it with no DRS (you could also play Scavenging Ooze SB in your Goyf slot)

[Plague Sliver]

Stuff

Welcome back, old friend!

Trying to keep this on topic: maindeck Winter Orb. Niiiiiiiiiice.

[H]

1. From my perspective I would say that you seem to strongly overrate winter orb, every legacy deck is so efficient now, I agree that it's good against Miracles and other control decks (if such a thing even exists) but you were even recommending boarding it in vs like DNT and Eldrazi which in my experience has way too much chance of backfiring / not doing anything. I would play max 1 SB and that's it.

I would tend to agree, despite loving Winter Orb. I played one in the board of BUG back in the day and had reasonable success with it in the hey-day of Miracles, although, what you mention is absolutely true. I even had games where Orb was almost as bad for me as it was for the opponent, yet they would almost have to continue to fight over it. This was mainly because of Top, which, now gone, half invalidates the point of Winter Orb, from the thinking that included it back then.

I wouldn't board it in vs D&T though as well, because as you mention it's as likely to backfire as it is to be useless, which leaves little room to really work. In the games where it would work, you'd probably have won anyway. Winter Orb is best where you are ahead on board and so can consolidate on your position. D&T runs both Vial to get around Orb almost totally and far more creatures to generally clog up the board making it hard to find a spot to actually play it profitably. The longer the game goes, the worse it will probably be for a Delver deck and better for D&T, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that Winter Orb makes cantrips pretty bad.

Putting it in versus Eldrazi seems more reasonable, since their velocity can be greater than ours, although, again, the issue of the state of the board can be a problem. In a perfect world, you'd have done something like Wasted their Cavern, Dazed something big, then land the Orb with them tapped out and something like a Delver on the board. By the time they could land another thing, you'd be far enough ahead to win through the big stupid things they'd eventually play. It's a bit of a long shot, but you have Brainstorm to shuffle away a dead copy. Last thing you want is to draw more though.

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

Hey everyone, I'm coming from Grixis, and have been playing RUG Delver the past few days. I'm excited to play nimble Mongoose and stifle! I have a question though:

In this new metagame, what are everyone's thoughts on how many tarmogoyf to play? I see a few lists varying between 2-4, as it's difficult sometimes when you want to leave up mana against combo, it being a 2 drop and all can clog up your hand if you draw it in multiples.

[kombatkiwi]

Hey everyone, I'm coming from Grixis, and have been playing RUG Delver the past few days. I'm excited to play nimble Mongoose and stifle! I have a question though:

In this new metagame, what are everyone's thoughts on how many tarmogoyf to play? I see a few lists varying between 2-4, as it's difficult sometimes when you want to leave up mana against combo, it being a 2 drop and all can clog up your hand if you draw it in multiples.

You won't get a consensus answer on this

I played the full 4/4/4 Delver/Goose/Goyf
4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/TNN was also popular
For a while in the last format I played 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/Loam
And then JA in the last few posts has even recently suggested 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Goyf/WOrb
(Loam and Winter Orb are kind of like 'threats' because they are powerful sorcery-speed plays that increase your win% if they resolve, even if those cards themselves don't actually win the game)

Obviously JA seems to agree with your ideas about how Tarmogoyf can be bad, so he only plays 2 Tarmogoyf

Arguments for playing more/max copies of Tarmogoyf are
- Tarmogoyf is the best card vs Chalice decks and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is king in the mirror and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is a powerful proactive card so in some games rather than walking the tightrope of having to Stifle/Daze/Answer plays for many turns while spinning your wheels with cantrips trying to find a threat, you will have more success just jamming 1 or more Tarmogoyfs and quickly aggroing out your opponent. (This is the exact opposite of the 'play less Tarmogoyf' argument, "Too many threats" vs "No, not enough threats")

I'm still going to be playing 4/4/4 I think
I like playing 1 extra cantrip (Preordain) as a solution for the 'I don't want to draw too many X' problem rather than cutting Tarmogoyf

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

You won't get a consensus answer on this

I played the full 4/4/4 Delver/Goose/Goyf
4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/TNN was also popular
For a while in the last format I played 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Hoot/Loam
And then JA in the last few posts has even recently suggested 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Goyf/WOrb
(Loam and Winter Orb are kind of like 'threats' because they are powerful sorcery-speed plays that increase your win% if they resolve, even if those cards themselves don't actually win the game)

Obviously JA seems to agree with your ideas about how Tarmogoyf can be bad, so he only plays 2 Tarmogoyf

Arguments for playing more/max copies of Tarmogoyf are
- Tarmogoyf is the best card vs Chalice decks and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is king in the mirror and you want to draw as many as possible
- Tarmogoyf is a powerful proactive card so in some games rather than walking the tightrope of having to Stifle/Daze/Answer plays for many turns while spinning your wheels with cantrips trying to find a threat, you will have more success just jamming 1 or more Tarmogoyfs and quickly aggroing out your opponent. (This is the exact opposite of the 'play less Tarmogoyf' argument, "Too many threats" vs "No, not enough threats")

I'm still going to be playing 4/4/4 I think
I like playing 1 extra cantrip (Preordain) as a solution for the 'I don't want to draw too many X' problem rather than cutting Tarmogoyf


Wow, that was very informative. Thank you! I might give the preordain idea a try. I suppose tarmogoyf is still able to be boarded out versus combo anyway (a couple copies)

Not having DRS anymore makes me look at this strategy much differently. Two drops are a lot riskier to play.

[Jonathan Alexander]

If you're looking for my opinion on Tarmogoyf, this recent article has you covered: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2018/04/18/untitled-unedited/. It also covers most other card choices, but note that it has not gone through any editing at all and i wrote it in one sitting. Several sections are not very articulate.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

If you're looking for my opinion on Tarmogoyf, this recent article has you covered: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2018/04/18/untitled-unedited/. It also covers most other card choices, but note that it has not gone through any editing at all and i wrote it in one sitting. Several sections are not very articulate.It's not recent enough, as your article refers to probe and DRS, and your thoughts on Tarmogoyf consist completely of just "haha"...I don't feel like your article had me covered as far as an opinion of Tarmogoyf went.

[hiski]

I couldn't resist myself so I had to build this deck up again after I saw the Shaman ban. I had already given up to this format since everything I saw was only Miracles, Deathrite Shaman piles, staxes and turn one combos. I hope these bannings will open meta more once again.

What do you think about Zur's Weirding in a sideboard to fight meta filled with Miracles? I had it in my sideboard in a past but I never actually casted it. What does your sideboards look like? I don't exactly know how my local meta will look like so much (outside of some Miracle decks) so my sideboard is a bit all over the place:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Reveley
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mind Harness / Life from the Loam

[JackaBo]

I couldn't resist myself so I had to build this deck up again after I saw the Shaman ban. I had already given up to this format since everything I saw was only Miracles, Deathrite Shaman piles, staxes and turn one combos. I hope these bannings will open meta more once again.

What do you think about Zur's Weirding in a sideboard to fight meta filled with Miracles? I had it in my sideboard in a past but I never actually casted it. What does your sideboards look like? I don't exactly know how my local meta will look like so much (outside of some Miracle decks) so my sideboard is a bit all over the place:

2 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Reveley
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Pithing Needle
1 Mind Harness / Life from the Loam

Many deck will board in REB to fight stifle/delver. It's a bad idea to fight red decks with blue cards. Winter orb takes care of the miracle mu.

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

I like the idea of destructive revelry, hiski. Ive seen a lot of rest in peace, blood moon and back to basics around. (Even though we can pyroblast BtB)

I know that rest in peace doesn't kill us, and we can even stifle the trigger, but it can strand tarmogoyfs and nimble mongoose (to a degree) in my hand. It's nice to have a disenchant effect.

Would just have to find room for it in the board. Currently my sideboard is:
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Vendilion Clique

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What is null rod for?

[wcm8]

What is null rod for?

You'll occasionally run into a heavy-artifact deck, but it's great against any deck that uses artifact mana (Storm -- LED and Lotus Petal) as well as any Stoneblade/equipment and/or Aether Vial deck. It's just a hard counter to all artifacts and doesn't tie your mana up any further like Ancient Grudge -- though you may still want some Grudges to deal with Chalice of the Void.

Nice to come back to a DRS-less Legacy (and Probe!) after taking an extended break. Both cards were getting stale.

[cheerios]

Is there any Canadian thresh build with Young Pyromancer?

[kombatkiwi]

Is there any Canadian thresh build with Young Pyromancer?

I think there were only a couple of people who posted successful finishes with this
a) Without Therapy or Delve cards in RUG (some versions of RUG do play delve cards) there wasn't the same incentive to play Probe compared to Grixis, and Probe is one of the cards that made Pyromancer much stronger
b) You just don't have Therapy in your deck at all, which is another card that makes Pyromancer a lot better
c) The most common builds of Grixis didn't play Stifle. Pyromancer gets better when you can freely tap out chaining cantrips and not need to hold up mana for instants. (Cards like Stifle are also situational, so you might hold up blue mana and then not get to cast it, in which case you won't get any Elemental Token).
d) Many people played a configuration for the Grixis Delver pseudo-mirror that allowed you to board out Delver of Secrets and have all your threats be immune to Lightning Bolt. If you were playing additional 2/1 creatures this probably wouldn't be possible
e) *Extremely weak reason alert*: People sometimes played non-instant non-sorcery removal in the form of Seal of Fire to make Tarmogoyf stronger, which doesn't trigger YP

I think without Probe in the format we will start to see much less Pyromancer, period, and I don't think it's particularly good in RUG

[hiski]

Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?

[RhoxWarMonk]

Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

RUG is currently about 12% of the meta-game, according to all the post-ban metrics Ive seen. By contrast, Miracles is about 10% and Grixis Delver is about 4%. BUG isn't even in the main chart because it's under 3% meta game share.



Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?

It's actually more popular than both of them and the price of volcanics/trops has nothing to do with it. In a format like Legacy, people will play (competitively) what is winning and what they enjoy - price has never been a serious barrier to entry for the people who are into competitive legacy.

[kombatkiwi]

Have any of you fellas had good time or recent success with Threshold? It didn't show up as big as I expected after the Deathrite Shaman ban. Abrupt Decay still seems to keep this deck in check on some level and also that there is still a top deck in a format that plays a playset of Sword to Plowshares.

Do you have any ideas why Threshold isn't more popular instead of the one with black core (grixis and bug)? Could it be also that Tropical Islands and multiple Volcanics didn't see that much play before bans and now since prices have spiked very hard people are just not going to invest into new deck or color combination?

Looking at MTGGoldfish, from the 2 starcity classics and the 2 challenges since the unban it seems RUG is the most popular Delver variant (the only tournament that was the exception was the Atlanta Classic where Grixis was 1st and 9th and only 1 RUG in top 16 (3rd place). RUG was also 3rd at Worcester.

I think the main reason is that RUG just isn't much stronger than other decks in the same way that grixis delver was. There are other non-DRS decks that were fringe-playable in the DRS format that have also 'improved' (Stoneblade, DNT).

Possibly some people also have a kind of "yay now I can try whatever I want" and moved to try something else after an era of Delver being dominant for ages

[GoldenCid]

I have an offer to get again (ouch) my set of goyf, do you recomend this deck nowadays?

[Vandalize]

I've been testing this list online:

Land [19]
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

Creature [13]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Snapcaster Mage

Spells [28]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt

Sideboard [15]
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
2 Winter Orb
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrade
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Null Rod
1 Rough//Tumble
1 Echoing Truth

It's a little bit more threat dense, and also plays one extra land to support TNN and SCM. Echoing Truth in sideboard has also been very useful against Empty the Warrens and Blood Moon.

[acidhead]

I sleeved up good old Canadian for a LGS tournament yesterday. It was a ton of fun and I went 3-0-1

2-0 Lands
2-1 Dredge
1-1 Maverick
2-0 Miracles

Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Young Pyromancer
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Daze
1 Fire // Ice
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will

Lands:18
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:15
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Sylvan Library
1 Submerge

Takeaways:

Young Pyromancer is bad. I knew this before, but I wanted to confirm it. The rest of the main is great!

The TNN in side should be Clique, maybe I even want to play a second Clique instead of Null Rod. That depends on how much DnT I'm anticipating.

I'm undecided on Spell Pierce in side. I like that it can counter Artifacts, Enchantments and Planeswalker as well but maybe I just need Flusterstorm more for the important matchups (Miracles/Storm).

1 submerge is either way to less or far to much. I would love to play something else in this slot but I think it has to be blue. Maybe Vapor Snag or a second Fire//Ice? Has anybody experience with Dead//Gone?

[GoldenCid]

I have an offer to get again (ouch) my set of goyf, do you recomend this deck nowadays?

I think the answer is yes...go for it then...

[Kanti]

I think the answer is yes...go for it then...

Quoting your own quote? Kids, don’t do drugs.

editing with something useful: Anyone say that Saito list? Bomat Courier seems to be the real deal. Kind of opened my eyes since I always thought of RUG to be the Mongoose deck, and Bromat to be a Grixis choice.

[Jonathan Alexander]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Sylvan Library

2 Abrade
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gemstone Caverns

[l33twash0r]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Sylvan Library

2 Abrade
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gemstone Caverns

Gemstone Caverns?

[Turboninja]

Interesting list to say the least!

#1 No more Goyfs
#2 Gemstone Caverns (probably for turn 1 counterspells OTD)
#3 Going knee deep in Winter Orbs
#4 Abrade MD to beat D&T I presume
#5 So many counterspells 3 Spell Snares, 3 Spell Pierces, 2 Flusterstorm
#6 Not much removal, though without DRS it's probably fine

Great list Jonathan! I'll give it a try. I was already wearing down on Goyfs for the library and gave a real thought to MD Abrade.

[Darkgobs]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Sylvan Library

2 Abrade
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Ponder

//Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gemstone CavernsWow, I know the meta shifted to slower games, but only 10 creatures, two of which are TNN, really caught my eyes.
I am also wondering about the 4 volcanics: why not go for a basic Island? I know about the 2 Abrade MD, but still...

[kombatkiwi]

UB Shadow possibly needs addressing.
Shadow + Angler is a lot of 1 mana unboltable creatures that outsize mongoose.
It's also a push + angler deck, which is annoying.
No spell snare targets either.

Maybe there's a certain way to play against it that makes the matchup even, but it doesn't seem very favourable on the surface.

No idea what to make of JAs list, too many weird things going on
If DS is popular I don't think I want to play 3 snare 1 counterspell and 2 abrade maindeck, but maindeck TNN could be good
I don't think Gemstone Caverns is remotely playable either

[bigwerdz]

When drs got banned I cut the seal of fire/tarfire from my list as I expected more goyf decks in general. I think we may need to play at least one more to get goyf bigger then anglers? I’m guessing we’re on the get them low and bolt them out plan? Maybe tarfire and chain lightning as removal 5 and 6 and a dismember in the board?

[Kanti]

UB Shadow possibly needs addressing.
Shadow + Angler is a lot of 1 mana unboltable creatures that outsize mongoose.
It's also a push + angler deck, which is annoying.
No spell snare targets either.

Maybe there's a certain way to play against it that makes the matchup even, but it doesn't seem very favourable on the surface.

No idea what to make of JAs list, too many weird things going on
If DS is popular I don't think I want to play 3 snare 1 counterspell and 2 abrade maindeck, but maindeck TNN could be good
I don't think Gemstone Caverns is remotely playable either

Against Angler bounce can be an option. Submerge, Man-o-War, etc. Obviously not cards this deck wants to be playing maindeck, but a CipT creature that bounces things can't be THAT bad in a tempo deck. Man-o-War has the bonus of being really quite good agianst Show and Tell and Depths as well, and looks quite decent against a flipped Delver. Replacing Mongoose with Gnarlwood Dryad or Narnam Renegade is another option.

[Jonathan Alexander]

The list is supposed to beat Jace + Snapcaster decks, Tomb + Chalice decks, Show and Tell decks and Reanimator first and foremost. There's some serious splash damage done to Death & Taxes because of the Orbs, True-Name and infinite artifact removal. Same for Lands. You should also be able to beat Aggro Loam and Maverick through tight play. Most other matchups are pretty bad but you can still win if you play well and your opponents don't. Notably, this includes the mirror. This list is really bad for the mirror, but i have always played lists that were bad in the mirror.


Gemstone Caverns?

Quoting myself (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2018/04/18/untitled-unedited/): "This card is not a joke, i played it, and it really pulled its weight. The way i like to think about this card is as extra copies of Force of Will for the Ancient Tomb + Chalice and combo matchups (most notably Reanimator). I played one copy and was pleasantly surprised.

"If you’re skeptical about the cost, keep in mind that you’re giving up one card in order to have a land on the table before your opponent starts their first turn. This is the same cost as chosing to play first.

"I’m not sure i’d be willing to play a second one, you’ll have to figure this out for yourself."



Interesting list to say the least!

#1 No more Goyfs
#3 Going knee deep in Winter Orbs
#4 Abrade MD to beat D&T I presume
#5 So many counterspells 3 Spell Snares, 3 Spell Pierces, 2 Flusterstorm
#6 Not much removal, though without DRS it's probably fine

#1 Goyf is a more reasonable card to have if you don't expect to face many Swords to Plowshares.
#3 Winter Orb is pretty good against both Miracles and Grixis Control, so that's neat.
#4 Abrade is more for Chalices than D&T, but the overlap is convenient.
#5 Yeah i don't like running out of countermagic against combo decks.
#6 This list is criminally low on removal, but that's mostly because it ignores all the real creature decks. You can adjust to your own metagame accordingly.


Wow, I know the meta shifted to slower games, but only 10 creatures, two of which are TNN, really caught my eyes.
I am also wondering about the 4 volcanics: why not go for a basic Island? I know about the 2 Abrade MD, but still...

I've been playing 10 creatures main since 2012, only occasionally did i have more. It's reasonable to have more creatures in the 75 if your metagame calls for a more diverse line up. 4 Volcanics because i ran out of lands in Orb games against control decks a few too many times. Basic Island sucks, it doesn't cast enough spells. You never want to have that on board. Generally you want to go either Volc, Volc, Trop or Volc, Trop, Volc and Island really messes with that.


UB Shadow possibly needs addressing.
Shadow + Angler is a lot of 1 mana unboltable creatures that outsize mongoose.
It's also a push + angler deck, which is annoying.
No spell snare targets either.

Maybe there's a certain way to play against it that makes the matchup even, but it doesn't seem very favourable on the surface.

If DS is popular I don't think I want to play 3 snare 1 counterspell and 2 abrade maindeck, but maindeck TNN could be good

Agree.


When drs got banned I cut the seal of fire/tarfire from my list as I expected more goyf decks in general. I think we may need to play at least one more to get goyf bigger then anglers? I’m guessing we’re on the get them low and bolt them out plan? Maybe tarfire and chain lightning as removal 5 and 6 and a dismember in the board?

I played around with a Goyf list that had Tarfire + Seal main. Pretty sure that the way to go if you play Goyfs.


Replacing Mongoose with Gnarlwood Dryad or Narnam Renegade is another option.

No.

[kombatkiwi]

3-0 Local tournament tonight
2-1 vs Grixis Control
2-0 vs DNT
2-0 vs Hangarback Stompy / Men of Steel / Whatever

RUG 54 (4 Tarmo)
2 Fire // Ice
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Abrade

SB
2 Surgical
2 Grudge
2 TNN
2 Pyroblast
1 Loam
1 Ring
1 Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 HONDEN OF INFINITE RAAAAAAGE
1 Forked Bolt

The SB was put together in a rush because I went to that shop on the way home from modern to pick up some cards and it turned out they had a legacy event on.
I like every sideboard card except for 1 Counterspell 1 Forked Bolt and 1 Flusterstorm (not that these 3 are bad but I'm just less sure about them).
I like 1 maindeck Abrade, I don't think I want a 2nd one because I think it's important for the removal to be able to burn face
Honden is still insane and Loam is also really good. Honden + Orb won one of the Grixis games and Honden + Loam destroyed DNT

I never drew fire/ice except in one of the DNT games where I could have got a 2 for 1 on small Thalia + Revoker, but had to use it to Incinerate 3/2 Thalia to let the goose loose.
The idea behind Fire/Ice is that Shadow deal a lot of damage to themselves so by tapping 1 big creature it hopefully shouldn't be too hard to create a window where you can attack through and kill them. I don't know how successful this plan will be because I haven't tested the matchup though. Then because you have 7 removals main, 2 of which are Twin Bolts, you probably don't need to play extra removal in the SB beyond the 1 Barbarian Ring (and the Honden) which opens up some SB space for e.g. Cage, 2nd Flusterstorm, 3rd Pyroblast, 2nd Winter Orb, etc (cut forked bolt)

It obviously didn't hurt in these matchups not having the 2 Seal of Fire that I used to play for making Goyf big but with the number of Anglers in the format dropping with Grixis falling off after the DRS ban it might not be warranted anymore. Vs Eldrazi you can still get 5/6 by killing one of the opponent's artifacts.

I would happily run this list back after putting some more thought into what those last 3 SB slots are supposed to be

I agree that Gemstone Cavern is fine when you get the effect off (ie. I don't think the cost of activating it is too high) but for this to happen
a) You have to open with it
b) You have to be on the draw

So in the context of reanimator, you could be playing 1 Leyline of the Void in the SB. If you don't draw either Caverns or Leyline in your opening hand they're both bricks (if you're unhappy with Basic Island I can't imagine you think Wastes is playable) but instead of just stealing the die roll Leyline basically wins the game AND if you're on the play you don't have to board it out

Of course Leyline doesn't let you Pierce a Chalice turn 0 but your list already has 2 Grudge and 2 Abrade which is way more artifact kill than most people are playing

I don't think Leyline is playable in this deck which is why I don't think Cavern is either
Every other successful deck which has played Caverns (usually in modern) has many more ways to utilize colorless mana
If you're playing in a meta where Charbelcher is everywhere then I guess it makes a lot of sense but generally I don't think this card is worth the space

[GoldenCid]

2 Fire // Ice


Once upon a time i run Chain lightning there an it was fair.

Thoughts?

Then it was converted into forked bolt

[kombatkiwi]

Disappointing result today, the only silver lining was I won one of those Jace coins as a door prize

0-2 LED Dredge
He just did Dredge things both games and I never saw any SB cards in game 2 even after a mull

2-0 Miracles
G1 He makes a medium entreat but can't attack because he will die to geese on the swingback. After a few turns of the stalled board he finds another entreat and makes a huge angel swarm but I topdeck the bolt.
G2 Honden killed 2 Cliques and 1 Snap, after Surgicaling the snap target I see that he has only 1 CJ to out the Honden and his only winconditions are 2 Entreat and 1 Lyra so I just play protect the Honden. I force CJ on the Honden and play TNN, then he finds Lyra; when I Bolt him EOT he realises he's on the ropes and tries to Swords his own Lyra but I Flusterstorm it and untap and kill him.

1-2 Elves
G1 He does Elves things and after grinding through my interaction for a bit he just taps 4 mana through Heritage into NO into Hoof; he activates Quirion to untap one of his Elves and swing for exact damage (16 or so)
G2 I have too much removal for his creatures and Flusterstorm for his Glimpse, he just dies to Goyf and TNN without ever really doing anything (fire/ice does some work)
G3 I'm in a pretty good spot after using Fire/Ice again, I have Cage + Goyf + Barbarian Ring vs 2 Heritage, Quirion, and Dryad Arbor with hellbent opponent, so all I need to do is Barbarian Ring the Quirion and my Goyf can start swinging. Unfortunately he topdecks his (presumably 1-of) Scavenging Ooze so I lose.

1-2 DNT
I think I misplay game 1 by not Stifling one of his Mother activations
I win G2 with a fast double Delver draw backed up by Bolt + Fire to the face just as he's about to stabilize
G3 I counter the first removal on my Delver but I can't protect it twice and then he destroys all my lands

1-2 SNT
Very weird games
I think I drew quite badly and got punished by my Delvers taking ages to flip.
Because I don't have too many SB cards for this matchup I kept all my creatures in for the post-board games and I drew a lot of threat-heavy hands (this is not a matchup where you want to draw 2-3 Goyf)

4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 Goose

4 BS
4 FOW
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Bolt

2 Fire/Ice
1 Abrade
2 Pierce
1 Snare

8 Fetchlands
3 Volc
3 Trop
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Grudge
2 TNN
2 Surgical
2 Pyroblast
1 Cage
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
1 Winter Orb
1 Loam
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Flusterstorm
1 Seal of Fire

I was confident with all the list going in except for the 1 Seal of Fire, which I just slotted in randomly after not putting much thought into it. After the tournament I think I would make major changes.

In the post-DRS post-Shadow world I don't think it's correct to play Tarmogoyf anymore. Grixis Delver was the top deck and it had the following qualities:
- Gurmag was the biggest creature (Bigger than DRS, YP, Delver), so you could trump your opponents whole threat base if you made your Goyf 5/6
- Tarmogoyf didn't die to any of their removal (they only play Bolts)

Now Shadow has supplanted Grixis Delver as the #1 deck (or at least the #1 tempo deck):
- Having a 5/6 Goyf doesn't make you king of the battlefield anymore because Shadow can easily be 6/6 or bigger
- All their black removal kills goyf easily (Push or Snuff Out or Dismember)

It seems like such a small thing (1-2 decks in the meta changing) but it took away one of the major reasons to play Tarmogoyf and replaced it with a reason to not play it

Not only is Shadow now a thing RUG has to deal with but also the evolution of Grixis Delver (e.g. the Sukenik list which made it to Eternal Weekend Japan top 8) does play 3 Angler but also has 3 TNNs 2 Push and 2 Bitterblossom maindeck, which also incentivises playing Mandrills

I also agree with the Mandrills fans that being able to cast it for 1 generally makes it better than Tarmogoyf vs combo decks.
You do sacrifice quite a lot of equity cutting Tarmogoyf if your opponent's deck has Reality Smasher in it but I think this is just a trade-off you have to accept.

I still like my mix of spells and want to try Sean's Predict tech so I would start with a list like this:

(List from above)
Main
-4 Tarmogoyf
+2 Mandrills
+1 TNN
+1 Predict

SB
-1 TNN
-1 Seal of Fire
+1 Compost
+1 Roast

Compost seems dope in a world full of Baleful Strix and Street Wraith but I have never tried the card before so it might be wrong way to approach things.
I think this 75 wants 1 Roast/Dismember to cover the loss of Tarmogoyf but again this is pretty speculative

Overall I think RUG is a very niche deck now. I generally agree with the thoughts of Owen etc who just don't find the deck to be very good, Stifle is too awkward/weak, etc. Having 4 Goose in the list imo makes the deck way better against UW control than all other Delver versions, but the power level of UB Shadow is just so much higher that I don't think this is a good enough reason to play RUG in an open meta

[Ralf]

UB shadows is a nice deck but it also has its drawbacks.
Having a shadow 5/5 on the board means that you are at 8 life.

Burn (just to mention one deck) is usually happier to face a UB than a RUG.

The meta might need to adjust to it.

Anyway, I feel like Fire // Ice is a very fine card at the moment.

I'm playing the following setup at the moment:

4 Delver
4 Tarmo
2 Mandrills
1 Clique

1 Become immense
2 Fire // Ice
2 Pierce
2 snare

Also, I'm trying "Unsubstantiate" to see if the card could fit in the 75. I really like the tempo it gives you (either by clearing the way to one of your creature or "countering" every spell including uncounterable ones). CDA vs tempo gain...

[kombatkiwi]

I feel like Mongoose is the only reason to play this deck, I don't understand why you would want to play a list like that

[rlesko]

Not sure if this is Ralf or not, but someone made a GP Top 8 with a creature configuration like that one.

https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12671&d=273417&f=LE

[BKclassic]

I feel like Mongoose is the only reason to play this deck, I don't understand why you would want to play a list like that

Nimble Mongoose is only better against Swords to Plowshares, and there are some corner cases like Maze of Ith, Jace, and Jitte activation. Sylvan Library, Winter Orb and Abrade/Ancient Grudge can make up for these shortcomings. Mandrills is a much faster clock and is better against Chalice of the Void, Young Pyromancer, Baleful Strix, TNN, Leovold, combo and swarm strategies. I think Nimble Mongoose's heyday has unfortunately expired, but Delver/Tarmogoyf/Mandrills/TNN is a good beatdown package.

[Ralf]

@ rlesko: It was not me. But I was there and also playing RUG (4 mongoose though at the time).

This was back to 2016 and I mentioned it earlier here including the creature configuration.

At the time I was curious about his choice and tested it.

It is working fine and maybe should get a closer look from the community before dismissing it (not to mention the top 8 at a GP).

[GoldenCid]

I feel like Mongoose is the only reason to play this deck, I don't understand why you would want to play a list like that

I feel so...

[alvoi]

Hello everyone!

Does somebody know the list Tomoharu Saito is playing at GP Richmond? He is 6-2 and i think he is playing Bomat Couriers

[say no to scurvy]

Hello everyone!

Does somebody know the list Tomoharu Saito is playing at GP Richmond? He is 6-2 and i think he is playing Bomat Couriers

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/9bx6nb/i_was_digging_that_temur_delver_deck_that_reid/

[alvoi]

Thank you!

[kombatkiwi]

Testing results vs UB Deaths Shadow

I wanted some idea of the Shadow matchup so me and my friend played about 15-20 Games preboard. The first 2/3 of the games were played with 4 Tarmogoyf and the latter 1/3 with a 2 Mandrills 1 Predict list something like what Sean Brown plays. These are my opinions following that session:

- The 'RUG has no un-loseable matchups' adage is not falsified here, but the matchup is not good, in the ballpark of 40/60 or 30/70

- The things people have been saying along the lines of 'Stifle is an outdated card' are very apparent in this matchup. Unless you can manascrew the opponent with it early on there is nothing you can do with Stifle except counter a Street Wraith cycle, and it's very difficult to effectively manascrew them because all their cards cost 1 and all their lands give them both of the 2 colors that they need.

- The way the games typically play out is that you get ahead on the board early because your threats don't require any setup (Goyf/Goose/Delver vs Delver/Angler/Shadow). Later in the game the opponent will play a large threat that walls your ground attackers. If you get into this boardstall, the longer the game goes the less favoured you are, because it gives the opponent time to find another shadow/angler at which point you basically die in 2 shadow attacks. If your opponent is on a very low life total then you can try to topdeck burn spells but your opponent only needs to be on 8 life to have a 5/5 shadow that already outsizes all of your creatures, so this is often difficult to do if the opponent is managing their life total properly. Overall this means that RUG is 'the beatdown' in the matchup

- For this reason trying to zoo them out is a generally profitable line, because it gives them minimal time to find multiple threats and you can deal the final points of damage by chump-attack-alpha-striking into their big creature if you have to. (i.e. Multi-creature draws are really good)

- Spell Snare is a literal blank, and this punishes you a lot because in the matchup all of your relevant cards trade off very quickly, so often when you draw it you will wind up in situations where your last 1-2 cards has a snare but the opponent's 1-2 cards are still live (this is essentially the same reason why stifle sucks). In this matchup the opponent's plan is so efficient that the game will often be over before you can maneuver into a situation you can brainstorm dead cards away.

- Even though mongoose is smaller than everything it's still relatively good because it costs 1 and is unkillable

- Tarmogoyf seems like it would be good, because in most other matchups it helps with the zoo-style draws, but costing 2 means that it's very difficult to resolve it through Daze, and it's also a big tempo swing to spend 2 mana on it and have it be Snuffed / Push / Dismembered. For the games with Goyf I was playing 2 Seal of Fire, which potentially helps to beat Angler and dodge dismember, but
- You need to have them both together, which is relatively difficult because the games are so fast
- You need to have them both together and your opponent to not have Daze/Push/Thoughtseize etc for your Tarmogoyf
- You need to have them both together and your Tarmogoyf needs to stick and your opponent has to not just play a 7/7 shadow which beats it anyway
The 'Boosted Goyf' tech might be worth it in Angler matchups that dont have Shadow (and vs Reality Smasher) but I don't think it improves this particular matchup enough for it to factor into the decision to play it or not

- Because Goyf is so easily outsized/killed it isn't necessarily better than Mandrills because of its combat stats. Mandrills does dodge push, and being able to cast it for 1 is a significant advantage, but building your deck around Mandrills means reducing your total threat count and it's very hard to deploy multiple mandrills at a time, which are strikes against it. Overall I'm not sure which approach is better in this matchup, I would need to play more games with the Mandrills build

- TNN is probably the ideal threat in the matchup but good luck resolving it

- Dismember seems like good removal because it kills Angler, but remember that Dismember is most likely replacing a Burn spell, which are also very powerful cards in the matchup, so it really isn't that much of an upgrade (if at all).

- The Fire/Ice idea is rubbish, both because it's a 2 mana card and because typically if it's going to force one of your attackers through a board that attacker will just be a Mongoose, which isn't much different to just having Ice be Chain Lightning and aiming it at the opponent's face. I also found that being 2 mana often made it worse vs Death and Taxes than the cheaper options (even with the damage split) because it's hard to cast under Thalia and doesn't kill Mother on turn 1. It's an acceptable hedge if your meta is full of Elves (why would you even play RUG then) but that's about it

- Don't use FoW to protect your ground creatures (Mandrills/Tarmo) from removal because as soon as your opponent plays a threat they get shut down anyway. Delver on the other hand is often worth protecting because it flies over Shadow/Angler so you can actually force a race with it

- "Do I just not attack? Maybe I am helping my opponent make a big Death's Shadow". The longer the game goes you give your opponent time to find multiple shadows/anglers. It's a much better approach to just aggro them out ASAP, and hope that you can counter their first threat and they'll be too low on life to play out of it, unable to use Wraiths / Fetches / Forces / Reanimates / Dismembers etc (or at least they have to worry about going into bolt range)

- Place a very high value on Stifling your opponents first 1-2 lands. You aren't favoured if your opponent gets to execute their gameplan, and it's a huge windfall if you are ever able to Daze a Shadow or an Angler. You can't 'save stifle for later' like you can in some other matchups because there isn't anything else to use it on (e.g. Snapcaster, Stoneforge) and your opponent only needs 1 land to cast all their spells. Your opponent will naturally deal a ton of damage to themselves so casting an early threat is not a priority, therefore you gain more equity from leaving your mana untapped and attempting to counter your opponent's land drops. [So stifle is good? No, but if you've decided to put it in your deck you might as well use it optimally]

If I think of anything else later I'll edit it in below, otherwise feel free to ask me anything

[Que]

Do you guys have any general tips against Turbo Depths?

What are your boarding strategies? On the play/draw.

Thanx

[hiski]

I decided to go for those main deck Nemesises also.
Creature suite is now like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

I think that even tho my local meta game is very shifty and people most likely play what they desire at each time there will be like lot of combo decks (ANT, Belcher, Show and Tell) and decent amount of slower control decks (UBr Control, Miracles). Threshold is most likely the best fair deck at disrupting combo decks meanwhile giving them reasonable clock to worry. On the other hand Threshold isn't at its best when grinding longer games so Nemesises will hopely help me there. Don't know if I should swap Tarmogoyfs for Mandrills to dodge Fatal Push and forcing damage through opposing Nemesises.

Mana and tax disruption suite is the stock:
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland

Some people have shaved one Stifle or Daze from the list but I don't like that idea. Never had. Do you guys have experience in lets say main deck Divert or Loam? I saw a wild Threshold with Barbarian Ring in main.

Cantrips are the stock eight.

Removal suite is four Lightning Bolts and single Dismember. Dismember is of course for the zombie fishes and Shadows.
I have two Snags in the sideboard to combat those Grixis and Shadow decks better.

Flex slots are kind of messy:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Flusterstorm

Don't actually know if I should lean to one of these spells only. Snare or Pierce and not try to add both. Flusterstorm is in there to combat opposing counterspells and combo. These flex slots have been hard to fill for me since the printing of Abrupt Decay.

What is your preference for the creature setup?
Have any of you tried the Courier? I kinda like the grinding aspect of that card but the clock of that card just looks so miserable.

[Luca Grease]

I decided to go for those main deck Nemesises also.
Creature suite is now like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Some people have shaved one Stifle or Daze from the list but I don't like that idea. Never had. Do you guys have experience in lets say main deck Divert or Loam? I saw a wild Threshold with Barbarian Ring in main.


What is your preference for the creature setup?
Have any of you tried the Courier? I kinda like the grinding aspect of that card but the clock of that card just looks so miserable.

Tarmogoyf has to go: there's simply too many fatal pushes flying around, AND it also regularly gets outsized by Anglers/Shadows. You can try to swap them for 2 Mandrills, but the dyssynergy with Goose is bad, plus it would still end up being the worst creature in your setup anyway, so I'm just playing 10 creatures at the moment and I'm pretty happy with it. The fact that 6 of those are highly resilient to removal mitigates the low count, anyway.
Every time I pick up a different version of Delver, I try to find an excuse not to play 2 TNN in the main (costs too much, weak to -1-1 effects, blastable, can't play rough/tumble, etc), but I inevitably go back to it after not being satisfied with my win %, which will magically start to improve after its inclusion...

Having only 10 creatures means you have a few more flex slots, one of which I'm occupying with a maindeck Divert: I haven't used it much, but boy is it spectacular when it works! The fact that it can still function as a pseudo spell pierce in a counter war makes me think it has enough flexibility to stay in the maindeck for now (plus I love me some SPICE). If you don't like fun, I guess you could swap it for a pierce of fluster instead.
I've also began playing 1 copy of Loam in the SB: I bring it in in all wasteland mirrors (Delver, DnT, Aggro Loam, Lands, Eldrazi) and obviously in mus where wasteland is key (Post Ramp, Depths). It has already won me a couple of games in delver mirrors, so I guess it's staying for the moment.

I really don't think this deck needs bomat courier. That's something Grixis was gravitating towards to replace DRS, because a tempo deck absolutely needs an additional 1-drop to play 4-of. But we already have Goose, which, hit or miss as it is, makes this the best Delver deck against control (especially UW control), and is still one of the main, if not THE main, reason to play it. I can see Bomat potentially working in a more tap out, proactive deck which wants to empty its hand quickly, but when playing RUG, you want to deploy your hard-hitting threat and hold those counters to protect it/disrupt your opponent's bigger plays.

[KobeBryan]

Tarmogoyf has to go: there's simply too many fatal pushes flying around, AND it also regularly gets outsized by Anglers/Shadows. You can try to swap them for 2 Mandrills, but the dyssynergy with Goose is bad, plus it would still end up being the worst creature in your setup anyway, so I'm just playing 10 creatures at the moment and I'm pretty happy with it. The fact that 6 of those are highly resilient to removal mitigates the low count, anyway.
Every time I pick up a different version of Delver, I try to find an excuse not to play 2 TNN in the main (costs too much, weak to -1-1 effects, blastable, can't play rough/tumble, etc), but I inevitably go back to it after not being satisfied with my win %, which will magically start to improve after its inclusion...

Having only 10 creatures means you have a few more flex slots, one of which I'm occupying with a maindeck Divert: I haven't used it much, but boy is it spectacular when it works! The fact that it can still function as a pseudo spell pierce in a counter war makes me think it has enough flexibility to stay in the maindeck for now (plus I love me some SPICE). If you don't like fun, I guess you could swap it for a pierce of fluster instead.
I've also began playing 1 copy of Loam in the SB: I bring it in in all wasteland mirrors (Delver, DnT, Aggro Loam, Lands, Eldrazi) and obviously in mus where wasteland is key (Post Ramp, Depths). It has already won me a couple of games in delver mirrors, so I guess it's staying for the moment.

I really don't think this deck needs bomat courier. That's something Grixis was gravitating towards to replace DRS, because a tempo deck absolutely needs an additional 1-drop to play 4-of. But we already have Goose, which, hit or miss as it is, makes this the best Delver deck against control (especially UW control), and is still one of the main, if not THE main, reason to play it. I can see Bomat potentially working in a more tap out, proactive deck which wants to empty its hand quickly, but when playing RUG, you want to deploy your hard-hitting threat and hold those counters to protect it/disrupt your opponent's bigger plays.

So it dies to removal is the No.1 reason not to use a card. Ok.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So it dies to removal is the No.1 reason not to use a card. Ok.Goyf is not a very strong creature these days AND dies a lot. This archetype is suffering, and it's partly because it's threats haven't truly evolved since TNN.

These are good, sound reasons to look at goyf and suggest that something new/different be tried.

Day 2 after shaman's banning, I put temur Delver back together. Day 5, I disassembled it. It was goyf's ineffectiveness that made me do so.

[Luca Grease]

So it dies to removal is the No.1 reason not to use a card. Ok.

Dies to ubiquitous and cheap removal, while also lining up poorly against a lot of commonly played creatures (Angler, Strix, Shadow) sounds like a pretty good reason not to play a creature. What's a reason to play it? Where does goyf shine? Certainly not against StP decks. Not against UB based decks, or combo either. Delver, Goose and TNN have their own drawbacks, but they are all excel at a certain role. Goyf doesn't anymore

[JackaBo]

What it really comes down to is that goose is only really good against miracle. It’s too slow to ”flip”, it’s bad against strix, goyf, angler, knight even when flipped.

[hiski]

I am in the same wagon with people who are cutting Tarmogoyf. Of course it is stunning beater if you go toe to toe with only combo and aggro decks but when you start to face Angler and Strixes Goyf turns very fast just underwhelming and sad. Even the Abrupt Decay made Tarmogoyf sad but one mana removal and outclassing threats makes it even worse.

Is this deck becoming like splash green for Mongoose? Or is it just better to cut it also with Tarmogoyf and add four Mandrills? I kinda like the idea of that over half of threat base dodges Fatal Push and opposing True-Name Nemesis.

[Luca Grease]

What it really comes down to is that goose is only really good against miracle. It’s too slow to ”flip”, it’s bad against strix, goyf, angler, knight even when flipped.

This is a lot more debatable. Sure Strix can get walled by opposing creatures, but shroud is still REALLY good against a number of decks other than Miracles, including Grixis control. You can often bolt the strix and not care about the card disadvantage because the virtual card advantage provided by shroud more than makes up for it. For this reason, I would not consider swapping goose with Mandrills: while more resilient than Goyf, they still die to a lot of removal like Stp, chumpblock + bolt, assassin's trophy, Jacebounce, etc, while providing very little upside over goose.

Besides, goose is definitely not the only reason to play green. Sylvan Library is a necessary maindeck card if you're only playing with 10 creatures imo. And green does have some very interesting cards to offer to the sb such as Revelry, Loam, and Compost



Is this deck becoming like splash green for Mongoose? Or is it just better to cut it also with Tarmogoyf and add four Mandrills? I kinda like the idea of that over half of threat base dodges Fatal Push and opposing True-Name Nemesis.

I would ask myself how often I have to play vs TNN (a card that is currently at a low among top decks) vs Swords to Plowshares

[Turboninja]

Testing results vs UB Deaths Shadow


Great post. Thank you!

[hiski]

This is a lot more debatable. Sure Strix can get walled by opposing creatures, but shroud is still REALLY good against a number of decks other than Miracles, including Grixis control. You can often bolt the strix and not care about the card disadvantage because the virtual card advantage provided by shroud more than makes up for it. For this reason, I would not consider swapping goose with Mandrills: while more resilient than Goyf, they still die to a lot of removal like Stp, chumpblock + bolt, assassin's trophy, Jacebounce, etc, while providing very little upside over goose.

Besides, goose is definitely not the only reason to play green. Sylvan Library is a necessary maindeck card if you're only playing with 10 creatures imo. And green does have some very interesting cards to offer to the sb such as Revelry, Loam, and Compost



I would ask myself how often I have to play vs TNN (a card that is currently at a low among top decks) vs Swords to Plowshares

Nice catch on Compost :) I like it a lot! Compost seems to be big deal versus Shadow and Storm. Dunno if it is good enough but I will give it a shot.

I didn't mean to say that green doesn't offer good sideboard cards but I think in Legacy people don't splash colors to fair decks for sideboard cards only unless the card is like Pyroblast level in power.

[Luca Grease]

Nice catch on Compost :) I like it a lot! Compost seems to be big deal versus Shadow and Storm. Dunno if it is good enough but I will give it a shot.

I didn't mean to say that green doesn't offer good sideboard cards but I think in Legacy people don't splash colors to fair decks for sideboard cards only unless the card is like Pyroblast level in power.

Yes well, those SB cards are in addition to Mongoose. As a tempo deck, we still need another 1-drop, and bomat courier is no substitute imo.

As for compost, with black decks moving away from green (and therefore the ability to destroy enchantments) after the DRS ban, I am very excited by the potential of this card, both against fair (UB Shadow, Grixis Control) and unfair decks (Dredge, ANT, Reanimator). It's so good a lot of times I'd be willing to tap out for it on turn 2 against combo, because the amount of cards you immediately draw off it make your chances of seeing FoW, Daze, ad Surgical skyrocket. Even though I'm jelly and want to keep the tech secret, the truth is a larger testing base would help a lot :P

[hiski]

Yes well, those SB cards are in addition to Mongoose. As a tempo deck, we still need another 1-drop, and bomat courier is no substitute imo.

As for compost, with black decks moving away from green (and therefore the ability to destroy enchantments) after the DRS ban, I am very excited by the potential of this card, both against fair (UB Shadow, Grixis Control) and unfair decks (Dredge, ANT, Reanimator). It's so good a lot of times I'd be willing to tap out for it on turn 2 against combo, because the amount of cards you immediately draw off it make your chances of seeing FoW, Daze, ad Surgical skyrocket. Even though I'm jelly and want to keep the tech secret, the truth is a larger testing base would help a lot :P

How do you feel about Stifles? Some people have been cutting them but I like the full set.
I also saw this wild list which had threat suite of four Mongooses and four Mandrills and couple of Nemesises in the sideboard.

[Luca Grease]

I am of the idea that if you're playing a tempo deck as focused as this, stifle is a necessity. Sometimes it will be devastating, sometimes it will be mediocre or awkward, but that's just the nature of playing this deck. If you cut stifle, your soft permission gets worse, and your threats are more likely to get outclassed before they can finish the job.

[Bagnold]

Hi guys! First post for me :)

I played Canadian at a 100person tournament in Ger called "eternal clash". Playing Canadian since 2-3 Years with some breakes, really big fan of the mongoose!
Went 4-3, but after all it was very close.
List had 2 mandirlls and 1 True name, 3 Stifle 1 divert, 3 spell pierce 2 spell snare. Dismember/Forked bolt. Otherwise Stock.
SB was like: pretty stock (2surgical/2pyroblast/...) too besides that i was going with 2 winter orb, 1 vapor snag, 1 true-name and a single null rod. I wanted to be prepeared for Grixis and this was it.

1. First match i played against UWb miracles with strixis... this felt like a mean machup because you can not hang on goose only and hope this will be enough because he can, apart from normal UW miracles list, slam another thread that needs to be handled and the virtual CA from goose cant save you the day 100%. So we went 1-1 and in the 3rd game we went to the turns after some grinding and a single bridge wichich i was prepearded for Thx to Ancient grudge from the SB to fight strixes. In the last extra turn i hat the chance to make a draw or go all in with my last copie of bolt. He had mentor, the stack become big, storm count to he had 3 StP with snappie and a FoW and Fluster. My counterwall was not as big. Winter orb was not enough to keep him of Mana. I was one mana/1Life Short of winning in the end. Felt like i throwed the game somwhere but tuff to say when. 1:2
2. Match against 4Cloam. G1: stifle, waste, Goose->win. G2: he keeps double chalice double mox D. Hand. I have Ancient Grudge. Play Ancient Grudge, flashback, play goose. Counter Knight with Fow, Pierce Liliana->win. 2:0
3. This was another weird match. He played Shardles Agent with 4 Tarmogoyfs. He drew em all. My list is not well prepeared to fight tarmogoyf. G1 i divert a T2hymn from him beeing on the play and still loose to tarmogoyf :/ Maybe raw CA is not what this deck wants to have. Lost another test match where the exact same thing happended the night bevore. 0:2
4. UW miracles. Opponent has all cards full artered. Played AK miracles. i resolve goose and hit him hard. 2:0
5. Death and Taxes. This is funny because i wanted to test the winter orb tech against D&T and hat no way to do so bevore the tournament. G1 i have double Delver. He has flicker T3 and T4 i Dismember one and fly in for the win with bolt. G2 he hast vial followed by waste/waste/port/port/ enough plains. i cant cast any spell and get beat'n out. G3 i resolve winter orb T2 and grind him out on mana, still a close game. It was super importatnt that he had no acces to Rishadan Port thanx to winter orb. 2:1
6. Leovold/Dark depths grind pile. G1 i drew 2 lands in 25 cards, and my opponent had 2 Wastelands. still pretty close with him having Fow for my last lethal Forked bolt top deck, after i saved my volc from waste with bolt->daze my bolt->cant pay :_(. Game two he had DD combo i had no answer. 0:2
7. Burn. just had enough t beat burn. 2:0

So after all i want to cut the divert, i lost games where the card did all it could. even in testing i lost games after killing enemys TNN with it or rederecting hymn.
Not having Tarmogoyf felt awkward against Shardless agent but i know Mandrills is so much better against grixis control and Delver. I had 2-3 cenarious where mandrills where cutting gooses ability to go big but hey still more power on board with mandirlls, also protects you from edict against black decks which cant push either of the creatures. Oh another fun thing, my mandrills got assassins trophied 3 times in the tournament... lets see where this cards leads.

it is really tuff to say where canadian wants to be at the moment. Mandrills and Tarmogoyf is a meta call but like me you can just get the wrong opponent and loose. Lets say you meet Eldrazi and other tarmogoyfs wou will cry with mandirlls in the 75, lets say you meet grixis all day you will cry about Tarmogoyf cause he dies to push and can not trample over TNN and Pyro and deal dmg under strix. After all i think Tarmogoyf is the saver choice in an open field because you will not auto loose to other Tarmo/big creature decks meanwhile you can compensate not having a mandrills much better.

Future changes to my list will look like. -1 divert, +1 Stifle. -1 Spell pierce -2 Mandrills, +3 Tarmogoyf. SB stays as it is: 2 Pyro, 2 Surgical, 1 electrickery, 1 Ancient grudge, 1 null rod, 2 winter orb, 1 Destructive Rev (Good against B2B and weird single ensnaring Bridges from UWx decks), 1 TNN, 1 Izzet staticaster, 1 dismember, 1 vapor snag, 1 fluster storm.

[Que]

Hi guys! First post for me :)

I played Canadian at a 100person tournament in Ger called "eternal clash". Playing Canadian since 2-3 Years with some breakes, really big fan of the mongoose!
Went 4-3, but after all it was very close.
List had 2 mandirlls and 1 True name, 3 Stifle 1 divert, 3 spell pierce 2 spell snare. Dismember/Forked bolt. Otherwise Stock.
SB was like: pretty stock (2surgical/2pyroblast/...) too besides that i was going with 2 winter orb, 1 vapor snag, 1 true-name and a single null rod. I wanted to be prepeared for Grixis and this was it.

1. First match i played against UWb miracles with strixis... this felt like a mean machup because you can not hang on goose only and hope this will be enough because he can, apart from normal UW miracles list, slam another thread that needs to be handled and the virtual CA from goose cant save you the day 100%. So we went 1-1 and in the 3rd game we went to the turns after some grinding and a single bridge wichich i was prepearded for Thx to Ancient grudge from the SB to fight strixes. In the last extra turn i hat the chance to make a draw or go all in with my last copie of bolt. He had mentor, the stack become big, storm count to he had 3 StP with snappie and a FoW and Fluster. My counterwall was not as big. Winter orb was not enough to keep him of Mana. I was one mana/1Life Short of winning in the end. Felt like i throwed the game somwhere but tuff to say when. 1:2
2. Match against 4Cloam. G1: stifle, waste, Goose->win. G2: he keeps double chalice double mox D. Hand. I have Ancient Grudge. Play Ancient Grudge, flashback, play goose. Counter Knight with Fow, Pierce Liliana->win. 2:0
3. This was another weird match. He played Shardles Agent with 4 Tarmogoyfs. He drew em all. My list is not well prepeared to fight tarmogoyf. G1 i divert a T2hymn from him beeing on the play and still loose to tarmogoyf :/ Maybe raw CA is not what this deck wants to have. Lost another test match where the exact same thing happended the night bevore. 0:2
4. UW miracles. Opponent has all cards full artered. Played AK miracles. i resolve goose and hit him hard. 2:0
5. Death and Taxes. This is funny because i wanted to test the winter orb tech against D&T and hat no way to do so bevore the tournament. G1 i have double Delver. He has flicker T3 and T4 i Dismember one and fly in for the win with bolt. G2 he hast vial followed by waste/waste/port/port/ enough plains. i cant cast any spell and get beat'n out. G3 i resolve winter orb T2 and grind him out on mana, still a close game. It was super importatnt that he had no acces to Rishadan Port thanx to winter orb. 2:1
6. Leovold/Dark depths grind pile. G1 i drew 2 lands in 25 cards, and my opponent had 2 Wastelands. still pretty close with him having Fow for my last lethal Forked bolt top deck, after i saved my volc from waste with bolt->daze my bolt->cant pay :_(. Game two he had DD combo i had no answer. 0:2
7. Burn. just had enough t beat burn. 2:0

So after all i want to cut the divert, i lost games where the card did all it could. even in testing i lost games after killing enemys TNN with it or rederecting hymn.
Not having Tarmogoyf felt awkward against Shardless agent but i know Mandrills is so much better against grixis control and Delver. I had 2-3 cenarious where mandrills where cutting gooses ability to go big but hey still more power on board with mandirlls, also protects you from edict against black decks which cant push either of the creatures. Oh another fun thing, my mandrills got assassins trophied 3 times in the tournament... lets see where this cards leads.

it is really tuff to say where canadian wants to be at the moment. Mandrills and Tarmogoyf is a meta call but like me you can just get the wrong opponent and loose. Lets say you meet Eldrazi and other tarmogoyfs wou will cry with mandirlls in the 75, lets say you meet grixis all day you will cry about Tarmogoyf cause he dies to push and can not trample over TNN and Pyro and deal dmg under strix. After all i think Tarmogoyf is the saver choice in an open field because you will not auto loose to other Tarmo/big creature decks meanwhile you can compensate not having a mandrills much better.

Future changes to my list will look like. -1 divert, +1 Stifle. -1 Spell pierce -2 Mandrills, +3 Tarmogoyf. SB stays as it is: 2 Pyro, 2 Surgical, 1 electrickery, 1 Ancient grudge, 1 null rod, 2 winter orb, 1 Destructive Rev (Good against B2B and weird single ensnaring Bridges from UWx decks), 1 TNN, 1 Izzet staticaster, 1 dismember, 1 vapor snag, 1 fluster storm.

Thanks for the write up bro. I might have to try Winter Orb against DnT soon.

[IamHANDSOME]

I'm playing Canadian without Stifle and have to say I have much more success with it than with 3-4 Stifle main. Here's my list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Tarfire
9 Fetchlands
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland


Reasons for not playing Stifle:
1. holding onto it while our opponent isn't fetching does not grow Nimble Mongoose and seems to be a little to reactive for a tempo deck.
2. Stifle is against decks like D&T, Elves, Goblins or Eldrazi a pretty weak to dead card. Also against control decks I personally think if you are not on the play Stifle is a very weak card. You delay maybe your opponent on one turn but you also delay yourself by holding onto it instead of Pondering or Brainstorming. Also pro players like LSV always say that Stifle is not a good card so I kind of try to build a list without it. There is this case by saying Stifle is good against Miracles and Storm but I feel like only in those 2 matchups Stifle is actually a good card how I want it to be.

The reason for 19 lands is I build this list to have a much better matchup against control decks so I want to play 3 TNN which are great. To support 3 TNN I like having 19 lands especially because you do not Stifle opponents Wastelands. I also like Nimble Mongoose now in the current meta. Shroud means a lot, only cards which work are Terminus, Diabolic Edict and Council's Judgement so I like to play a tempo deck right now with Nimble Mongoose. I used to play UR Delver with Swiftspears but Swiftspear is since the bannings very nerfed and Mongoose feels like the better Swiftspear currently. So at the end the idea is to play a tempo - midrange deck while playing resilient creatures (Mongoose and TNN) but without relying to much on the mana denial plan. You play the most efficient spells and creatures and also one of the last remaining blue decks who can actually play 8 cc1 creature to preasure opponents. Also I actually think the deck is better than Grixis Delver right now because Mongoose is a much more resilient threat than Delver, Lavamancer or Pyromancer and right now it is all about beating control decks.

Has anybody experience with a non Stifle version and can give some ideas or insights?

[kombatkiwi]

Tournament report 24/11/18 to prove that not all of the content is moving to discord

A local store runs a regular monthly event with decent prize. They are normally pretty popular because the store loyalty program means that a lot of people get to enter for free (play FNM to get a stamp on your card, enough stamps get free/discount entry, that kind of thing). This month the event was team trios and my friends had the stamps, so I took the legacy seat.

I'm attending the big Orlov tournament in Bejing in a few weeks and this is probably going to be the last tournament I get to play before then so I wanted to get some testing in.

4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Bolt

2 Snare
2 Pierce
2 Seal of Fire

8 Fetchlands
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
4 Wasteland

2 Ancient Grudge
2 TNN
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm
1 Honden of Infinite Rage
1 Winter Orb
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Compost

I added another Snare to the maindeck again because it's good against nearly everything. I was hesitant to play too many Snare after the team PT but most of the Shadow hype has died down and a lot of them are maindecking Hymn now anyway

Round 1 DNT : My game score 1-1, Team match score 0-1
I know this player, he has a decent amount of legacy experience and plays DNT and nothing else.
G1 is long grindy game which I lose after he topdecks better and gets SOFAI equipped
G2 Is also quite grindy and he untaps with Mom at a low life total facing down my Goyf but has no other board or cards. I Daze his Batterskull and Stifle Recruiter and then topdeck Delver which flips and kills him in 2 hits.
Unfortunately both of my teammates lost before G2 ended so we don't start G3.

Recently vs DNT I have been boarding out a mix of Dazes, Pierce, FoW and Stifle.
While it may be possible to argue that some of these cards are overall better than the others vs DNT, each of these cards does have some application in the matchup. The situation I want to avoid is to have e.g. multiple Stifle or multiple FoW against an opponent's particular draw where these answers don't line up well. You hedge against this situation by boarding out a mix of different reactive cards even though it looks kind of stupid to cut 2 Daze 2 Stifle 2 FoW 2 Pierce. I've been trying this for a while and I think I'm happy with it

Round 2 Jund : My game score 2-0, Team match score 1-1
G1 I just RUG him out with Stifle into beatdowns into my Snare/Pierce lining up vs his Hymn etc, I think he gets a decay off but I have another threat to follow it up and I have the Daze for his Liliana
G2 He gets way too fancy trying to Surgical my mana. He does manage to cut me off green when my hand has 4 green spells but I brainstorm 2 of them away and he's stuck with his only lands as Grove and basic forest. I resolve TNN and hold up Pierce/Snare for the rest of the game. He never draws out of it and 2 bolts finish him off.
Unlike Round 1 I am finished before my teammates, so I get to join forces with my modern Hollow One player to figure out a line to beat Bogles, and we barely get there.

Round 3 UR Delver: My game score 2-0, Team match score 2-1
This list features Risk Factor, Stormchaster Mage, Delver, Swiftspear, Chain Lightning
Both games I try to play the control role because I know that if I can deal with his threats at a high lifetotal I have Tarmogoyf and Mongoose that are unanswerable and bigger than his prowess creatures. I win both games at 1 life after big counterwars in the final turn, despite mulliganing to 5 in game 2. I have to call the judge over in g2 to double check what happens if we draw the game from Price of Progress killing us both.
I think watching this match from both sides would have been very instructive for someone learning to play Delver. My opponent was probably a bit of a Legacy novice as he seemed to be fetching every turn only to thin his deck, and playing out all his lands asap instead of holding them for Brainstorm. He did need a decent amount of mana to resolve Risk Factor through Pierce and so on but he ended both games pretty flooded when I only had my minimum 2-3 lands and a grip full of counters.

Round 4 Eldrazi Post: Game Score 2-1, Team match score 3-1
This round we are playing against probably the most talented team in the room, unfortunately my opponent is playing Post so doesn't get much opportunity to leverage it.
G1 I play Turn 1 Goose on the play and have no answer to Ancient Tomb into Chalice, I play Goyf on turn 2 and then turn 3 I spam a fetch and and Seal of Fire and another Goose into the Chalice, it looks like I might be able to aggro him out but I can't find any cantrip to make Tarmogoyf 4/5, so he can stick TKS and stalls into Ulamog
G2 I just have the nut of turn 1 delver into disruption and my opponent loses the game with 0-1 lands in play and maybe 1 other permanent (Grim Monolith I think)
G3 is a weird situation where I have Grudge in hand but my opponent is able to resolve both Chalice on 1 and Trinisphere and Monolith. I use Grudge on Monolith first to cut my opponent off Ulamog mana but then he resolves Chalice on 2. At this point the only spell in my deck I can cast is Force - and TNN, which I topdeck immediately. Thanks to Ancient Tombs dealing him like 10+ damage over the game he only has 1 turn to draw All is Dust and doesn't find it. Maybe Grudge on Monolith was playing too scared and I should've gone after one of the lockpieces instead.
Hollow One lost to Kelvin Chew on his Bant deck so for the first time today I get to watch standard, which I currently have no idea about. We cast some dopey goblins vs control and all 3 of our team miss lethal with Banefire (we can sac off our whole board with prospector to fuel it, this just totally flies over my head despite playing with Prospector in legacy plenty of times). The opponent can't do anything in the 1 turn we give them so we win anyway.

Round 5 Miracles: Game Score 0-2, Team match score 3-2

This round was an absolute clusterfuck

The last 2 Miracles opponents I have played IRL have had maindeck TNN which is super annoying (and is not typical AFAIK?). At one point my opponent played CJ into my Mongoose with 2 islands behind. I Pierce the CJ so he will tap out and then I can Daze the CJ. As soon as I cast the Pierce my opponent instantly snaps off Counterspell on it instead of just paying 2. I feel pretty good about this but then the aforementioned TNN comes down. I commit to the board more and force him to Terminus his own TNN away but then I lose when B2B resolves.
G2 I play turn 1 Volcanic and my opponent plays turn 1 island. I play wasteland on turn 2 and my opponent Brainstorms in my endphase. I Pierce it (debatably wrong) and after the Brainstorm is countered my opponent plays Surgical on my Pierce, before he even untaps and draws. Somehow the 1 other Pierce in my 75 is in my hand and I effectively lose a few turns later when he resolves Jace.

Our Experimental Frenzy man at the other end of the table has won his match but unfortunately for our modern seat Burning Inquiry is not a card you want in your deck when your opponent is playing Stinkweed Imp.

Final individual result: 3-1 (+1 DNF)

Thoughts on the maindeck:
- Not playing TNN main seemed to be good just for curve reasons but I board in TNN for every SB game. I think this is still correct but not totally sure about it
- 2 Snare was good. 2 Pierce is okay and 1 Pierce 1 Preordain is also something I would be happy to play, or maybe even 1 Pierce 1 Opt. I tried predict for a bit but I think it's too clunky at 2 mana.
- Tarmogoyf showed its strengths vs the chalice deck
- Seal of Fire was okay for clocking with Tarmogoyf (but not essential, it didn't help beat any Angler/Dismember but almost made a difference vs TKS in g1 vs Post). In some spots Seal were useful for burning face. I think it would be reasonable to cut them for e.g. 1 Abrade 1 Dismember but having 1 mana removal is v good vs DNT/Elves and in Delver mirrors. (Also not paying 4 life is relevant in enough of the creature matchups). So something like Chain Lightning would also be acceptable.
- I used to think Miracles was a favoured MU but it doesn't seem to be the case anymore even though my plan hasn't really changed against it. I think the newer high amounts of maindeck B2B are part of the reason, as the number of must-answer cheap-ish haymakers in the deck has really increased a lot. I think this might also be because I have gotten overconfident and my SB has slowly drifted away from cards that are good in the MU.
- Barbarian Ring and Loam might have to go into the too-cute basket. I have been burned by loam not doing anything early enough times (specifically compared to library) and while Barbarian Ring does a lot of different things, it isn't particularly good at any of them.
- I'm not sure that Compost is good enough
- I think I want more answers to Miracles and I also want to confirm whether the 'full-shroud' plan is still what we want to be doing

Maindeck: same (possibly cutting 1 pierce for another cantrip and you can tweak the non-bolt removal)

SB
2 Grudge (Very significant benefit to being RG)
2 Surgical
2 TNN
2 Pyroblast
1 Cage
1 Winter Orb
1 Honden
(Above is same as before)
1 Sylvan Library (Replacement for Loam)
1 Extra Removal (Staticaster, Electrickery, Forked Bolt, RoughNTumble etc, replacement for Barbarian Ring. Could be Abrade maybe but I don't think that's needed. Dead/Gone is also an option). [EDIT: Grim Lavamancer seems perfect actually, anybody have any strong opinions on this card?]
1 Additional Winter Orb (Should increase win % a significant amount vs Miracles, especially seeing as with AK they have so much air in the deck now, effectively a replacement for Compost because it should also be strategically effective for going full shroud vs the black decks, can come in vs DNT).
1 Red Elemental Blast (I've been disappointed with flusterstorm a lot lately being unable to stop counterbalance, PWs, and TNN, and I think even in the Hymn matchups being able to answer Strix on the stack is worth not answering Hymn/Kolaghans, and I don't know what other matchup I am boarding in flusterstorm where REB isn't acceptable, Elves maybe, Burn? REB just seems better at the moment).

Thanks for reading

[BKclassic]

I've been playing RUG in leagues the past two weekends. I believe I've had 3 4-1's, 5 3-2's and 2 2-3's. Good not great. I think RUG is definitely the best tempo deck in legacy. I'm trying to sort my thoughts here. I feel if I can figure out a few tweaks, those 5-0's are within reach.

Current list:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Mishra's Bauble

4 Lighting Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

3 Stifle
3 Spll Piece
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Pollute Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

2 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Spell Snare
2 Winter Orb
1 True-Name Nemesis

I just don't think Nimbe Mongoose is very good anymore. Winter Orb is good in the same matchups. Hooting Mandrills is bigger, has some kind of shroud, gets around Chalice of the Void, isn't stonewalled by True-Name Nemesis... the list goes on. Hooting Mandrills is definitely the best creature in the deck after Delver of Secrets. It's very difficult for me to imagine not running it.

Mishra's Bauble is a poor man's Gitaxian Probe, but it's been pretty reasonable. It grows Tarmogoyf past Gurmag Angler and excelerates your Mandrills. Obviously it doesn't flip Delver of Secrets, but you can scry the top card of your library in conjunction with a fetchland or check the top card of your library and know whether you want to burn a Brainstorm to flip your Delver. I used to not like running Gitaxian Probe and Dismember in the same deck because of all the life loss, but obviously that's not a concern here. 2x Dismember is definitely a much more reasonable option than with Probe builds. The next marginal option is Preordain. I find Preordain to be a lot worse than Ponder and not growing Tarmogoyf past Gurmag Angler is definitely a tactical shortcoming. Cycling into Brainstorm, Force of Will, Wasteland and creatures for free while giving some information on what the opponent is playing seems to be underrated given that I'm literally the only person runing Mishra's Bauble in a tempo deck in Legacy.

Matchups:

BR Reanimator:
This match up has been pretty 50/50. It really comes down to the die roll. Being on the draw game 3 is pretty unfortunate. This deck has me considering Leyline of the Void.

Dredge:
Dredge seems to be making a reasonable showing on MODO, taking advantage of people Surgical Extraction only as their graveyard yard. I switched from 3 Surgical Extraction to the 2 Surgical Extraction/2 Grafdigger's Cage split to help combat this, sometimes it's still not enough to beat a broken draw.. People sure have improved the decklist, does anyone remember when Dredge used to run Deep Analysis? I'm considering Leyline of the Void.

ANT:
This can be a touch match-up, it depends on the opponent. They can definitely trick you by going off with Empty the Warrens when you're holding up Force of Will for Infernal Tutor. Seems to be matter of how good the pilot is. This is a matchup where I like Surgical Extraction, it's great to at least get a look at their hand when going off so you know what to counter.

Sneak and Show:
I guess feel slightly better agaisnt Sneak and Show than ANT. Pyroblast is certainly much better against Sneak and Show than ANT and they can't surpise Empty you.

Lands:
Lands seems to be reasonably favorable. Sometimes they just have broken starts, but if your Force of Will their one good spell they aren't doing much. Surgical Extraction and Winter Orb out of the sideboard are great.

BG Depths:
This matchup seems to be reasonably favorable. The combination of Wasteland plus counterspells plus clock seems very hard for them to beat. Mulligan for Wasteland or a hand that has good shot of finding Wasteland. This is one of those matchups that make me glad I have Abrade in the sideboard because only some builds run Pithing Needle.

Eldrazi and other Ancient Tomb decks:
These decks all seem to be pretty favorable. The combination of fast clock, counterspells and Wasteland seem to do it. I definitely wouldn't want to be running Nimble Mongoose against these decks.

Miracles:
This deck definitely crushes Miracles like it's supposed to. Miracles is mostly air these days, just kill them quickly. Winter Orb is obviously a house out of the sideboard. I like bringing in Surigical Extraction here.

Grixis Control:
This matchup unfortunately seems to be less than 50/50. I think figuring out a good way to beat Grixis Control is the key to unlocking the metagame. I board out all the Bolt effects but keep Dismember. I board in Ancient Grudge, Winter Orb, True-Name Nemesis, Pyroblast and Spell Snare. Winter Orb is always a blowout against Miracles but is only good is some situations against Grixis. When they win, it's usually a combination of Baleful Strix and Gurmag Angler. This matchup makes me want a second Ancient Grudge in the sideboard and Sylvan Library.

U/R Tempo, URG Tempo, UBR Tempo:
Every other tempo deck I've played against is slower and plays worse cards. These are all very favorable. Unfortunately, people don't seem to be playing them as much.

Death and Taxes, Maverick:
Death and Taxes is the metagame whipping boy, it only beats bad decks in the metagame. I guess it's pretty good against RUG, but the matchup doesn't come up too much and they can have problems against a strong hand. Maverick seems to be more of a mainstay in the metagame than Death and Taxes. I ended up cutting the second Dismember for a Forked Bolt and cutting the 4th Tarmogoyf to move a copy of True-Name Nemesis from the sideboard to the maindeck which gave me room for 4 graveyard hate spells. I won the one match I had against Maverick with this change in place but its definitely a rough matchup.

So I would like to work out a configuration that can beat Grixis Control. Sylvan Library would be good there and Mishra's Bauble is much better with Sylvan Library than Gitixian Probe because no life loss. Winter Orb would be the cut for Sylvan Library, but I would miss the Winter Orb effect against Lands. If had Nimble Mongoose to beat Maze of Ith, I would feel better about cutting Winter Orb, but Nimble Mongoose seems to be terrible. Surgical Extract is probably the better against Lands than Winter Orb, but I'm considering cuttign Surgical Extraction for Leyline of the Void. Perhaps accepting a worse Lands match up is the way to go.

I also want to run the 2nd Ancient Grudge in the sideboard but Abrade really is effective. Abrade is the best artifact removal spell agaisnt Maverick where it isn't clear how many aritfacts they might be running. Decks like UR Delver are sometimes running Ensnaring Bridge these days. I definitely like having extra removal spells to bring in against Elves.

I guess I'm going to jam a build that runs Leylines and Sylvan Library and see how it goes.
//End Rambling//

[kombatkiwi]

Dead last out of 31 players
1-2 Moon Prison
2-1 Shockland Hypergenesis
0-2 Moon Prison
1-2 DNT
0-2 Miracles

4 Delver Goose Goyf
4 Bolt Stifle Force Daze Brainstorm Ponder
2 Snare Pierce Seal

6 Duals 8 Fetches 4 Wasteland

2 Grudge
2 Surgical
2 TNN
2 Winter Orb
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Blast
1 Cage
1 Library
1 Lavamancer
1 Honden

Notes
- Destructive Revelry costing RG would be a significant drawback because you can't use it to kill bridge through a moon (I've always thought that Grudge is the best artifact hate but this is another point that became obvious today)
- If the 8Boss version of Red Prison becomes popular then it becomes advantageous for your SB removal slots to be something that can deal 2 like Lavamancer, Rough&Tumble etc
- I'm very skeptical that the Orb plan is correct vs Death and Taxes
- If cascade combodecks become popular then playing a deck with 4 maindeck Stifle is very appealing
- Full shroud plan still seemed good vs Miracles (when he tried to snap brainstorm in G2 and I surgicaled it his hand was 3 plows, sadly he topdecked AK for 3 into 2 ponders into next turn Entreat and plow his own Angel to survive bolt + tnn)

Possible misplays:
1 Being too conservative with FOW g3 vs Moon round1
2 Not mulliganing G2 vs DNT and boarding wrongly (orb)
3 Sequencing cantrips weirdly G2 vs miracles that meant i shuffled all my lands away but ended up with a hand of 8 spells and had to surgical mainphase


I still like this creature/spell mix. Tarmogoyf being a huge 2 drop with no strings attached is too good imo. There is an appeal to playing maindeck TNN but I don't think it's right for RUG (maindeck 3drops in waste/pierce/stifle/daze deck).

I can't think of any changes that I would do to improve this 75 but it still doesn't seem very good overall.
There's still a smattering of RUG topping events but I would be interested to see the conversion rate.

[Jesture]

Hey all, new-ish to RUG and wanted to get everyone's thoughts on some ideas. List for reference:

Main Deck:
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrils
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Dead//Gone

4 Ponder

8 Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

1 Winter Orb

Sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrade
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Snare
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Pyroblast

Notable changes are 3 copies of Noble Hierarch and no copies of Nimble Mongoose. More on this later.

There's a question facing every URx Delver player regarding the role of Black vs. Green. The last few years have peppered us with a smattering of strong black cards while yielding very few cards for the green slice of the color pie. As a result, green's role of overstatted and undercosted beaters has been largely supplanted by other colors. So what's the incentive to play green?

Enter Noble Hierarch. Ever since the banning of DRS green has taken its mantle back as the best color for cheating on mana, and I feel this is an axis which RUG can abuse to stay competitive with its Grixis Delver counterpart.

Noble Hierarch is incredible in the deck for a variety of reasons. First, it does an excellent job at smoothing out our mana in the early turns. Picture an opening hand with Mongoose, Daze, Wasteland, Stifle, and fetch land. It's pretty common given that the deck maxes out on all of these in order to leverage the mana denial plan. You lead with fetchland into Mongoose, Daze their first play, then untap and use the Wasteland on their lone dual. So what's the Stifle doing now? There's an awkward tension between all of the pieces of early game mana denial, and without a mana dork I don't think the deck is suited to take advantage of all of its tools. Swap out the Mongoose in the above scenario with a Hierarch and all of a sudden you can also hold up the Stifle for the fetchland that your opponent plays on turn 2. This is just one of the many scenarios in which leading with a Hierarch might be beneficial over a Mongoose.

Second, Noble Hierarch lets us play bigger threats to help us stay relevant on board. It's no secret that Nimble Mongoose gets pretty quickly outclassed on board in today's legacy meta game, but bigger threats come with their own slew of problems in such a mana-light deck. What if you want to deploy a Tarmogoyf on t2, but also want to leave up mana for Spell Pierce? Or maybe you want to get that TNN out as quick as possible against Grixis Control, but have to wait until turn 3 at the earliest assuming you use no Dazes or Wastelands? Having an early Noble Hierarch helps immensely with these early game mana problems, and if people want to continue casting TNN's in a deck like this, I think they'll quickly realize that having extra mana dorks in the deck will go leaps and bounds towards making it happen.

Finally, Noble Hierarch is a perfect fit for the 'protect the queen' game plan that RUG Delver excels at. Exalted can shorten a 3-power beater's 7-turn clock down to 5 turns, and it also has the added benefit of giving our Goyfs and Mandrils enough power and toughness to tango with the Angler. Given that Diabolic Edict is a huge player in the current meta game, Noble Hierarch also has the added benefit of providing an expendable 0/1 on board that'll help insulate you against these types of sacrifice effects.

I'm a firm believer in not bringing weird ideas to public forums without trying them first, so I took this 75 to my last two legacy weeklies before posting here. Though it's still a small sample size I managed to go 4-0 in matches in both of these tournaments (total 8-0), including two wins over Grixis Control. The Hierarchs felt great in every matchup, and it felt like a card I always wanted to see in my opening hand.

Edit: It's come to my attention that the guys on the 'Dead Format' podcast have already spent some time with Noble RUG. Though I disagree with a couple of their deck choices (4 TNN, 1 Young Pyromancer), I think it'd be really cool to hear their thoughts on the optimal way to build the deck.

[QKisMyName]

Has anyone tried Hidden Gibbons? I’ve always thought the card was kinda cool. Probably not great haha

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I’m guessing someone has

[JackaBo]

Hey all, new-ish to RUG and wanted to get everyone's thoughts on some ideas. List for reference:

Main Deck:
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrils
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Dead//Gone

4 Ponder

8 Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

1 Winter Orb

Sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrade
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Snare
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Pyroblast

Notable changes are 3 copies of Noble Hierarch and no copies of Nimble Mongoose. More on this later.

There's a question facing every URx Delver player regarding the role of Black vs. Green. The last few years have peppered us with a smattering of strong black cards while yielding very few cards for the green slice of the color pie. As a result, green's role of overstatted and undercosted beaters has been largely supplanted by other colors. So what's the incentive to play green?

Enter Noble Hierarch. Ever since the banning of DRS green has taken its mantle back as the best color for cheating on mana, and I feel this is an axis which RUG can abuse to stay competitive with its Grixis Delver counterpart.

Noble Hierarch is incredible in the deck for a variety of reasons. First, it does an excellent job at smoothing out our mana in the early turns. Picture an opening hand with Mongoose, Daze, Wasteland, Stifle, and fetch land. It's pretty common given that the deck maxes out on all of these in order to leverage the mana denial plan. You lead with fetchland into Mongoose, Daze their first play, then untap and use the Wasteland on their lone dual. So what's the Stifle doing now? There's an awkward tension between all of the pieces of early game mana denial, and without a mana dork I don't think the deck is suited to take advantage of all of its tools. Swap out the Mongoose in the above scenario with a Hierarch and all of a sudden you can also hold up the Stifle for the fetchland that your opponent plays on turn 2. This is just one of the many scenarios in which leading with a Hierarch might be beneficial over a Mongoose.

Second, Noble Hierarch lets us play bigger threats to help us stay relevant on board. It's no secret that Nimble Mongoose gets pretty quickly outclassed on board in today's legacy meta game, but bigger threats come with their own slew of problems in such a mana-light deck. What if you want to deploy a Tarmogoyf on t2, but also want to leave up mana for Spell Pierce? Or maybe you want to get that TNN out as quick as possible against Grixis Control, but have to wait until turn 3 at the earliest assuming you use no Dazes or Wastelands? Having an early Noble Hierarch helps immensely with these early game mana problems, and if people want to continue casting TNN's in a deck like this, I think they'll quickly realize that having extra mana dorks in the deck will go leaps and bounds towards making it happen.

Finally, Noble Hierarch is a perfect fit for the 'protect the queen' game plan that RUG Delver excels at. Exalted can shorten a 3-power beater's 7-turn clock down to 5 turns, and it also has the added benefit of giving our Goyfs and Mandrils enough power and toughness to tango with the Angler. Given that Diabolic Edict is a huge player in the current meta game, Noble Hierarch also has the added benefit of providing an expendable 0/1 on board that'll help insulate you against these types of sacrifice effects.

I'm a firm believer in not bringing weird ideas to public forums without trying them first, so I took this 75 to my last two legacy weeklies before posting here. Though it's still a small sample size I managed to go 4-0 in matches in both of these tournaments (total 8-0), including two wins over Grixis Control. The Hierarchs felt great in every matchup, and it felt like a card I always wanted to see in my opening hand.

Edit: It's come to my attention that the guys on the 'Dead Format' podcast have already spent some time with Noble RUG. Though I disagree with a couple of their deck choices (4 TNN, 1 Young Pyromancer), I think it'd be really cool to hear their thoughts on the optimal way to build the deck.

I’ve been testing this deck and i really liked the mana dork for all reasons you mentioned. I dont think a playset TNN is wrong though. Its great against control, other fair decks and if you can resolve it in delver-mirrors. I like hooting as complementary threat but i dont think is great anymore.

Edit: a huge reason to play this is that its the best Winter Orb deck out there.

[Jesture]

I’ve been testing this deck and i really liked the mana dork for all reasons you mentioned. I dont think a playset TNN is wrong though. Its great against control, other fair decks and if you can resolve it in delver-mirrors. I like hooting as complementary threat but i dont think is great anymore.

Edit: a huge reason to play this is that its the best Winter Orb deck out there.

Glad it's been working out for you. Regarding TNN, I've found the card to really only be exceptional against control decks and non-blue fair decks. True-Name's obviously subpar against combo, and against Delver decks I've found 3 mana to be quite a lot to invest, even with the additional mana from Hierarch. No doubt that slamming him on t2 with Daze back-up is strong, but in tempo mirrors I find myself really hesitant to tap out unless it's really early or really late in the game. Could just be a playstyle preference thing though, I'll keep an eye on it.

On the topic of Mandrils, I originally had the two copies as a way to diversify the threat base against different removal spells but I could see an argument for cutting them entirely for something else.

Mind sharing what your threat base looks like? I've also been trying to find room for a 4th Hierarch, but the list feels pretty tight as it is.

[JackaBo]

Oh sorry the word Goyf unintentionally disappeared. I like Mandrill as complementary threat but dont think Goyf is good anymore.
My threats were 4 delver, 4 tnn, 4 noble, 2 mandrils.

[Jesture]

Oh sorry the word Goyf unintentionally disappeared. I like Mandrill as complementary threat but dont think Goyf is good anymore.
My threats were 4 delver, 4 tnn, 4 noble, 2 mandrils.

Thanks for sharing. The Tarmogoyfs were all-stars in another event I played last night, but I've noticed that Grixis Control is on the downswing locally which may have been a big factor in that. If the premiere Fatal Push deck starts picking up steam here again I'll give your threat suite a shot because I do really like the idea of t2 TNN's with Daze back-up, and they're obviously much better than vanilla */*+1's against the current best decks in the format.

Edit: Quick tournament summary from last night

R1 vs. James S. on BUG Control 2-0

Game one is a quick affair that kicks off with James mulliganing to 4 and ends shortly afterwards.

Game two is a bit of a grind and ends with me top decking a TNN after James had stabilized at 1. Carpet of Flowers and Back to Basics did a ton of work for James here, though I did manage to clear the latter off the board with a resolved Pyroblast. I'm wondering if there are any viable enchantment removal options for the sideboard. It seems to be a popular angle to attack Grixis Control on and there's definitely some overlap that hurts us, but I've never found Destructive Revelry to be particularly exciting.

R2 vs. Sean M. on Burn 2-1

Don't remember much from these games, but they were incredibly close with the winner of each game ending at less than 5 life in all 3. Tarmogoyf did some good work in coming down early and blocking Guides/Swiftspears. TNN's a bit of a clunker when you don't have Hierarch and are trying to avoid having too many lands in play.

R3 vs. Trevor L. on RUG Delver 2-0

These games were much closer than the 2-0 score indicates, as Trevor's one of the best RUG Delver pilots in the area and really gave me a run for my money. I feel incredibly favored against the traditional RUG Delver lists because we're swapping out one of the weakest cards in the match-up (Nimble Mongoose) for a card that makes it incredibly difficult for the opponent to execute their main game plan of choking us off of mana. There's also some odd interactions, like Hooting Mandrils shrinking opposing Goyfs and exalted triggers letting us attack through opposing Goyfs, that I'd never come across before. At the end of the day, I think this mirror really highlights the shortcomings of Mongoose while also showcasing the power of Noble Hierarch better than any other match-up does.

R4 vs. Nick P. on Mono Red Sneak Attack 2-1

One of the other cool things about Hierarch is that it gives us game through a resolved Blood Moon. These games were pretty normal, with 1 and 3 going my way off of a resolved Delver + Wasteland + Soft Permission and game 2 ending on T2 with a Seething Song -> Griselbrand -> Petal -> Emrakul. Sometimes you get 'em and sometimes you get got. #shrugDelver

[Qweerios]

I've been inspired by the Noble lists I saw here and seeked to make one of my own. I cooked something up based on a few basic principles and was pleasantly suprised with the results.

I tested a 4 Noble/4 Delver/4 Pyro/2 TNN/2 Mandrills with 16 lands (2 islands), no wastelands and Moons in the SB. The idea was to use the standard RUG tempo shell and pair up the most efficient and synergetic threats with Noble. Pyro being the best threat to abuse fast mana, TNN being the ideal t2 and Exalted threat, and Mandrills taking advantage of Exalted via Trample. Here are some of my findings:

I don't want to play 4 Nobles again. As good as the card is on turn 1-2, it is terrible in multiples or late in a game. You want enough copies to see one a game but avoid two copies as much as you can.

Pyromancer is the life blood of this deck. It reminds me how Grixis used to abuse YP minus the Therapy/Probe combo.

Wastelands are better than Blood Moon for a Daze/Pierce shell. This may come to no surprise to most of you but this deck is not aggressive enough to play tax counters without Wastelands.

Islands definitely have a place in a Delver shell. Probably no more than 1 basic is necessary when paired with Noble to combat Moon/Wastes.

Here's what I've got after a brief testing session:

Creatures (15)
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Hooting Mandrills

Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrade
1 Dismember

2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Island

Sideboard
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 True-Name Nemesis
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Dead // Gone
1 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage


Notable inclusions include a Dismember/Abrade split given their similar function and our 10 cantrips.

Happy Holliday!

[BKclassic]

Wastelands are better than Blood Moon for a Daze/Pierce shell. This may come to no surprise to most of you but this deck is not aggressive enough to play tax counters without Wastelands.



When I tried Noble Hierarch, I also concluded a 16 land build without Wasteland might be the way to go since drawing Noble Hierarch is basically the same as drawing a land. However, Winter Orb would definitely be the card to play over Blood Moon in a build like this. The trouble is that Winter Orb is much worse than Wasteland and Blood Moon against BG Depths, which is definitely a player in the online metagame. 22 mana sources (19 lands/3 Noble Hierarch) seemed too many mana sources to me, but I was running Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is clearly the superior tempo card and running Young Pyromancer makes us very vulnerable to -1/-1 effects when paired with Noble Hierach and True-Name Nemesis. Maybe the superiority of Young Pyromancer against 1 for 1 removal makes it worth while though.

[Qweerios]

When I tried Noble Hierarch, I also concluded a 16 land build without Wasteland might be the way to go since drawing Noble Hierarch is basically the same as drawing a land. However, Winter Orb would definitely be the card to play over Blood Moon in a build like this. The trouble is that Winter Orb is much worse than Wasteland and Blood Moon against BG Depths, which is definitely a player in the online metagame. 22 mana sources (19 lands/3 Noble Hierarch) seemed too many mana sources to me, but I was running Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is clearly the superior tempo card and running Young Pyromancer makes us very vulnerable to -1/-1 effects when paired with Noble Hierach and True-Name Nemesis. Maybe the superiority of Young Pyromancer against 1 for 1 removal makes it worth while though.

Yes there are 19 Lands and 3 dorks but it's really 15 colored lands and 3 dorks. This is comparable to the old Grixis with DRS and the whole Pyro/Delver/Gurmag/TNN suite. The Wastelands take up "land slots" but do not contribute to the mana development when used effectively. 16 colored lands and 4 dorks was a bit much I will admit so I think my current configuration is quite reasonable.

I also thought about Deluge/Casualties but then I looked up the various Grixis lists and those are 1-2of SB cards. I side out Nobles against Grixis Ctrl and Miracles anyway and you rarely need to extend several quality threats on a board if you are playing the matchup properly. I will often pair up a delver or Mandrill with a TNN or Pyro but I will rarely have to pair up several Pyro or TNN or any combination of both because eithet of those threats on board is a plan all on its own that you only replace once it's been dealt with. From my experience, vulnerability to -1/-1 effects in this deck is a non-issue unlike a deck like Bant.

[kombatkiwi]

Me and Sean Brown (ChemicalBurns) played in the Beijing Orlov Legacy tournament 1 week ago.
8 rounds of swiss on day 1, I lost the last round going 5-3 with the Tarmogoyf version and Sean went 6-2 into top 16 playing a Mandrills version.

2-1 BG Depths (I should have lost but my opponent made a big misplay g2)
0-2 Elves (Julian)
2-0 Sneak and Show
2-1 Grixis Delver
0-2 Depths Reanimator
2-1 UW Delver
2-1 Eldrazi Stompy
1-2 UW Stoneblade

Losing the last round was very annoying, I think it's a favourable matchup but in G3 I didn't find a second land until like turn 6

In the side event on day 2 I went 1-2 and Sean went 2-1, my win and his loss was the mirror match where we played each other

List
4 Goyf Goose Delver
4 FoW Daze Stifle Bolt Brainstorm Ponder
2 Snare Pierce SealOfFire
4 Wasteland
6 Dual
8 Fetch

SB
2 TNN Grudge Orb Surgical Pyroblast
1 REB Library Cage Honden Lavamancer

The only change I would probably make is -1 Seal +1 Tarfire
I think the deck is still probably a fine choice if you know how to play it well, but a huge factor in my decision to play it was card availability + lack of time to test other decks.
If I had the ability to play all the decks in legacy at like 95+% proficiency I think I would be surprised if I still thought RUG was the best choice for any tournament, but it's not a huge punt like I thought it was 1-2 months ago.

[Jesture]

Hey all, here's another tournament recap from last night's 4 rounder. List for reference:

Main Deck:
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Hooting Mandrils
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt

3 Ponder
1 Preordain

8 Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

1 Winter Orb

Sideboard:
2 Winter Orb
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrade
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Snare
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Pyroblast

List is mostly the same, I've recently gone -1 Ponder and -1 Dead//Gone for +1 Preordain and +1 Forked Bolt.

R1 vs. Nick P. on Eldrazi MUD 2-1

Game 1 is a pretty brutal affair, with multiple uncounterable Thought-Knot Seers hitting the board turn after turn and stripping my hand of relevant cards.

Sideboard: -4 Stifle, -2 Spell Pierce, +2 Abrade, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

Game 2 starts with me landing an early Hierarch and continuing to disrupt Nick's mana base with Wastelands while deploying a Tarmogoyf. The 5/6 is bigger than anything else he resolves all game and I cast a True-Name near the end for good measure.

Sideboard: Same as G1

Game 3 starts off slowly with Nick playing no Sol lands, but exiling my T1 Delver with a Warping Wail. I resolve a 2/3 Goyf, and Nick plays a third land to cast Trinisphere, which I'm forced to let resolve. I untap, rip a Winter Orb off the top, then play a third land to cast said Winter Orb slow down my opponent's mana. A few turns later I resolve a True-Name and a few turns after that the game is over.

R2 vs. Kevin L. on BUG Nic Fit (2-1)

Whoo boy, this is a tough matchup.

Game 1 starts off going pretty poorly for me. Kevin pulls the ol' Nic Fit and strips a FoW + Bolt from my hand using Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer synergy. Things are looking pretty tough, but I find my singleton main deck Winter Orb and manage to stick it for long enough to prevent him from capitalizing on his land advantage. True-Name gets there a couple of turns later.

Sideboard: -2 Tarmogoyf, -1 Stifle, -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

Game 2 starts off with Kevin leading on a Veteran Explorer, followed by me casting a T1 Grafdigger's Cage in the hopes of shutting off Cabal Therapy. Unfortunately he starts T2 by playing a Phyrexian Tower and sacrificing his Veteran Explorer to give himself access to 5 mana for the turn, casting a Leovold then passing. The details are a bit hazy on this one, but I remember getting a Winter Orb destroyed and an amusing situation towards the end where I stabilized at 1 life and my True-Name was facing down a Dryad Arbor that I couldn't afford to leave unblocked. I cast a Ponder, keep 3 Delvers on top, then draw one and throw the game by casting Delver and swinging with True-Name. Kevin uses an Assassin's Trophy at end of turn to destroy my Delver, and the Dryad Arbor ends up crossing the finish line.

Sideboard: -2 Tarmogoyf, -2 Spell Pierce, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

Game 3's also a bit hazy but it revolved very heavily around a Winter Orb that I managed to protect throughout the entirety of the game. The final turn had us both at 1 life, and Kevin is forced to triple block an exalted Hooting Mandrils with Leovold, Veteran Explorer, and Eternal Witness in order to stay alive. We go to time, I rip the True-Name, and seal the game from there.

If I wasn't sure before this match, I'm definitely now certain that Winter Orb is not only at an acceptable power level for legacy, but also a complete powerhouse that's just been missing a proper home for the longest time. Locking down 10+ lands, 9 of which are basics, is something that none of the currently played land hate in legacy could ever do.

R3 vs. Tri N. on Grixis Control (2-1)

Game 1 starts out in typical RUG Delver fashion, with me trading Stifles for fetch lands and Tri trading 1 mana removal for Delvers and Tarmogoyfs. After this exchange of resources, I manage to resolve a Hooting Mandrils and begin clocking in for 4 a turn. Tri resolves a Snapcaster into a cantrip, and I swing him down to 3 life before casting a second Mandrils and passing the turn. He draws, casts a Brainstorm with one other card in hand, and resolves a Gurmag Angler followed by a Diabolic Edict to get rid of one of my two Mandrils. I'm feeling embarrassed for my monkey that's just been brickwalled by a zombie fish when I top deck the lethal bolt and begin sideboarding.

Sideboard: -2 Tarmogoyf, -2 Stifle, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 card (Lightning Bolt?), +2 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Snare, +1 True-Name Nemesis, +2 Winter Orb

Game 2 starts off in pretty typical Grixis Control fashion with all of my creatures getting killed and my Winter Orb getting countered. At one point Tri resolves a Gurmag Angler, leaving Baleful Strix in the graveyard. Given that he saw Tarmogoyf game 1 this is a clue that he has the Kolaghan's Command in hand, so I opt to sandbag a Delver as Force of Will fodder rather than run it out and let him get the 2 for 1. I dismember the Angler, and Tri casts a Hymn to Tourach which prompts a Force pitching Delver. Next turn he Snapcasters Hymn back, and I empty the last two cards in hand (both Bolts) at his face, taking him to 2. This ends up being a mistake though, as his Snapcaster begins clocking in for 2 a turn and I never get back into the game before he finishes me off with Snapcaster beats and Bolt into K-Command.

Sideboard: Don't have notes, but it was similar to G1 sideboarding

I'm missing notes for Game 3 but it was won off of the back of True-Name Nemesis and mana denial.

R4 vs. Anthony W. on something (I.D.)

We agree to a prize split and draw into 1st + 2nd place. I go home to eat ramen and shiu mai for dinner.



Thoughts about some specific cards, listed in alphabetical order:

Forked Bolt - This is here because I had a pretty brutal loss to Elves a couple of weeks back. I'm not sure if it's better than Dead//Gone, but I feel its doing a lot against the decks its good against (Elves, DnT) which are incidentally unfavorable matchups for us.

Preordain - So I've been really on the fence about playing the 1st Preordain over the 4th Ponder (if you know me in real life, there's a good chance we've talked about this.) What it comes down to is Ponder seems better when you're looking for a specific card (like in a combo decks) or when you pair it with a shuffle effect to keep the card you want and get rid of the other two. This is a deck that operates on a very low land count, and as such, often doesn't want to run out extra lands solely for the purposes of shuffling with Ponder. Additionally, RUG Delver runs a high number of cards that quickly lose value as the game goes on (Daze, Wasteland, Stifle), so it's not unusual to cast a Ponder and see two bad cards and a single good card, only to be forced to shuffle. I'll concede that Ponder is better in the early turns of the game and also digs one card deeper while you're looking for that Bolt to close things out, but I think it's advantages over Preordain are small enough to the point that it's worth testing some number of Preordain in order to help smooth out draws.

Noble Hierarch - Winter Orb's best friend. Not much to say here, I'm almost certain 3 is the correct number in this build of the deck.

Tarmogoyf - There's been a lot of talk about cutting this guy for something else. While I agree that it's not quite the power house it used to be, Tarmogoyf goes really far in just being a large body that can block things like Thought-Knot, Batterskull, or even other Tarmogoyfs. 2 seems to be a good number so far, and I'm hesitant to raise that or the Mandrils count higher as they start to nonbo with each other if there are too many.

True-Name Nemesis - I'm currently on 2 main/1 side copies of this card, and some people run even more. As strong as this card is I do feel that running 3 drops in RUG is still fundamentally greedy and that running too many copies begins to put the deck in danger of not having enough lands to properly execute its game plan. Additionally, with the 4 Stifles I rarely want to tap out with this deck and it's incredibly rare to have the 4 mana to cast this guy and leave up one blue to counter fetch lands. There's definitely an argument to trim or even completely take out all the Stifles, but as long as I'm playing the full set I think this is the correct number of True-Names.

Winter Orb - This. Card. Is. A. House. With the entire legacy meta game moving towards basics in an attempt to play around land hate, Winter Orb is a card that can still heavily tax an opponent's resources without disrupting our own game plan significantly. Midrange and control decks that traditionally give Delver decks trouble suddenly become favored matchups if you manage to resolve and protect a Winter Orb. I cannot speak highly enough of this card, and the inclusion of Noble Hierarchs only goes to let us leverage its power even further.



In the interest of completeness, I've played about 10 weekly events with this deck now. Of those, I've cashed 9 of them with 6 'X-0/X-0-1' records and 3 'X-1' records. My non-cashed event ended 2-2, with losses to Merfolk and Elves. Curious to hear your thoughts on the deck, or if you've personally had any experiences with it that you'd like to share.

Thanks for reading!

[BKclassic]

Here is where I'm at:

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire

3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
3 Abrade
3 Pyroblast
2 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tormod's Crypt

-I tried Young Pyromancer and it was good. But the problem is that Noble Hiearch doesn't produce red mana, so I'm on Tarmogoyf.
-Winter Orb is definitely an interesting card, but I'm passing on it for now. True-Name Nemesis is getting the job done against control match ups and I think True-Name Nemesis has more upside in other situations, like Delver mirrors and Death and Taxes.
-I'm prepared to just have a middling at best match-up against Elves for now. I'm more worried about beating Storm and Reanimator. I do thinks Elves stock in the meta is rising though.
-Tormod's Crypt is definitely where I want to be with regard to graveyard hate.
-I do think about running a 4th Hierarch sometimes. It sure is a good card to have in your opening and they do form some kind of threat in multiples. Powering out True-Names definitely wins games.

[ptahetep]

-Tormod's Crypt is definitely where I want to be with regard to graveyard hate.

Hi, I am curious to understand more your choice of tormod’s crypt here over more traditional surgical, cage, etc.

Can you please elaborate?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BKclassic]

Hi, I am curious to understand more your choice of tormod’s crypt here over more traditional surgical, cage, etc.

Can you please elaborate?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Compared to the other options:
-Surgical Extraction is just too flimsy. Everyone expects Surgical Extraction and has some kind of gameplan against it. Surgical Extraction typically doesn't get it done against Manaless Dredge and LED Dredge.
-Grafdigger's Cage used to be my go to. Unfortunately, while Grafdigger's Cage is very good against both forms of Dredge and I love having these to board in against Elves, it is too slow against BR Reanimator and BR Reanimator is the baseline of the metageme.
-Leyline of the Void is an interesting option but ulitimately too clunky.
-With Deathrite Shaman out of the metagame we definitely need a potent sideboard strategy against graveyard decks. Tormod's Crypt doesn't beat the Turn-1-on-the-play nut draw from BR Reanimator but is very good in every other scenario against BR Reanimator, Manaless Dredge and LED Dredge. It's also a reasonable card to board in against ANT and Lands.

[Qweerios]

@BKClassic,

I really like your list and agree with most of your points.

Why Snares in the SB? They seem kinda narrow of you consider Pyroblast fills a similar role postboard.

What do you guys think of the new Cinder Vines as a SB card? It's a bit slower than Abrade but can destroy enchantments and can be played proactively against storm and miracles. It also puts an enchantment in the gy.

I always question Stifle in these decks and often compare it to other cards that I find better in more situations such as Spell Snare, Preordain, another Land or Threat. My experience with Stifle has always been very polarized as I either get a good Stifle in and feel satisfied or I just flood out on useless Stifles and lose... I feel like I only want Stifle when I'm on the play and to me 50% relevance for a card is not good enough. Now that some of us play Noble, is Stifle better or just the same?

Side note: SB Grim Lavamancer is too good to pass up without Mongoose!

[BKclassic]

Regarding counterspell selection, I've been running the 3 Spell Pierce 3 Stifle split maindeck with 2 Spell Snare and 3 Pyroblast in the sideboard for years now.
-Stifle isn't the best on the draw or in multiples and there a lot of board states it doesn't interact with, so I don't think it is very good as a four-of. Certainly with the presence of Chalice of the Void in the metagame I do not think running more Stifles than Spell Pierces makes sense. Also, opponents will often walk into a Spell Pierce on their cantrip where they wouldn't walk into a Stifle on their fetchland Stifled. As for the idea of cutting Stifle entirely, well Stifle is a broad counterspell with many applications. I'm not sure of any other card that could be as effective against Death and Taxes/Maverick, Combo and Control decks. Spell Snare would probably be the next best option.
-Spell Snare is more limited in it's application than Stifle and does little against Show and Tell but is pretty amazing when it's good. The sideboard is a logical place for it where it has broad application gainst Storm, Grixis Control, Miracles, Reanimator, Chalice of the Void, Death and Taxes, Maverick and Elves. Blue control decks just have so many cards that we need to counter, Counterbalance, Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, True-Name Nemesis, Back to Basics and Jace the Mindsculptor in addition to cantrips, that I do not feel that 2 Spell Snare is excessive in addition to 3 Pyroblast.
-I think that Spell Pierce and Pyroblast are sacred cows but not necessarily Stifle and Spell Snare. There might be a better configuration of countermagic but I'm not sure what it would be.

I think that Cindervines is an interesting card. A permanent based hate card would be very nice to have against Storm. If we tap out for this on Turn 2, this card doesn't single handedly stop our Storm opponent from going off on their turn. However, it could lock down a game down after surviving the first couple turns. It is a pretty slow answer to Aether Vial and Abrade sets a pretty high bar for artifact removal. I probably will not run this card but it seems like a reasonable option.

[Fox]

I think that Cindervines is an interesting card. A permanent based hate card would be very nice to have against Storm. If we tap out for this on Turn 2, this card doesn't single handedly stop our Storm opponent from going off on their turn. However, it could lock down a game down after surviving the first couple turns. It is a pretty slow answer to Aether Vial and Abrade sets a pretty high bar for artifact removal. I probably will not run this card but it seems like a reasonable option.

So Cindervines is actually anti-Counterbalance above everything else. You play it, and you not only get closer to winning (deals passive damage), but you also invalidate not on-board [yet] Counterbalance. Cindervines is also far more maindeckable than Abrade isn't b/c no decks play without noncreature spells, artifacts, and enchantments; also Goyf counts this card.

RUG isn't ever really coming back to its glory days, but unlike pretty much anyone else in the format this deck can stop at throwing away only 4 slots of sideboard to have a reasonable shot vs both Hymn and CB (for Grixis you'd just use some hot garbage they can't even begin to interact with, like Compost). Enjoy it, no other deck can play legacy with 11 intact sideboard slots (for the rest of the format) and have such clean proactive answers to those two blights on the format. :cool:

[kombatkiwi]

So Cindervines is actually anti-Counterbalance above everything else. You play it, and you not only get closer to winning (deals passive damage), but you also invalidate not on-board [yet] Counterbalance. Cindervines is also far more maindeckable than Abrade isn't b/c no decks play without noncreature spells, artifacts, and enchantments; also Goyf counts this card.

RUG isn't ever really coming back to its glory days, but unlike pretty much anyone else in the format this deck can stop at throwing away only 4 slots of sideboard to have a reasonable shot vs both Hymn and CB (for Grixis you'd just use some hot garbage they can't even begin to interact with, like Compost). Enjoy it, no other deck can play legacy with 11 intact sideboard slots (for the rest of the format) and have such clean proactive answers to those two blights on the format. :cool:

I don't think that you can maindeck this card because I think there are too many matchups where it's basically just RG Lava Spike.
I might not even board this in vs Grixis because it's such a slow source of damage and there are basically no targets to hit with the ability.
But I do like that it has very strong anti-control applications vs CB and B2B (and the trigger) and it can come down for 2 mana before a Moon or a Trinisphere.
Looks worth testing but I seriously doubt the correct decision is to jam 4 in the board lol

[Fox]

I implied 4x slots were 2x and 2x anti-Grixis card, leaving you with 11x slots for SB vs rest of format.

[Qweerios]

I'm smashing BKClassic and Jesture's list together and trying it out tonight at a weekly 20+ player 4 rounds tournament. My metagame contains mostly Eldrazi and DnT/Maverick as aggro decks, Miracles and Grixis as control decks, and Reanimator and Lands as combo decks so I think Spell Snares instead of Stifle package is where I want to be. This deck reminds me a lot of Next Level Thresh... I'll let y'all know how it goes!

[Qweerios]

List and small report:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Hooting Mandrills

Spells (27)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Forked Bolt
1 Tarfire

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library


I got to the shop early and played 1 pre-board and 3 post-board games against Miracles. I lose pre-board to a timely Terminus with Force backup into Jace on the lethal turn.
In: 2 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 3 Noble 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 1 Daze

I take the first pre-board game riding Library. Lose the 2nd one to CB + B2B into Terminus with counter backup. Finally win the last one riding Orb. The games were good but I could use a 3rd Pyroblast out of the board.

R1 vs. Eldrazi 1-2
-On the draw
G1: I get stomped by uncounterable TKS holding Daze and Force
In: 2 Abrade 1 Grudge 1 Dismember 1 Orb
Out: 2 Pierce 2 Snare 1 Forked
G2: T1 Noble with Daze into 2 Wastelands and Orb makes him concede.
G3: I keep a Noble opener with 2 Delvers and a Wasteland but he has a Ratchet Bomb on T1 and 4x uncounterable TKS T2-3-4.

R2 vs. UB Reanimator 2-0
-On the play
G1: He double Forces my Delver with Daze backup and I win from there sculpting a counter hand and riding another Delver.
In: 3 Surgical 2 Fluster 2 Pyro 1 Crypt
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 2 Mandrill
G2: He sides in Strixes but Snares and Daze/Force prevents him from doing anything and Goyf eventually takes it.

R3 vs. UR Delver 2-0
-On the draw
G1: We trade Bolts on threats and TNN eventually beats him down.
In: 2 Fluster 2 Pyro 1 Grim
Out: 4 Force 1 Waste
G2: Mulligan to 6 and win with 1 Life stabilizing with Goyf

R4 vs. UW StoneStill 2-0
-On the play
G1: I flood out with 4 Wastes and Pierce and Snare 2 Standstills. Opponent resolves a Teferi but I topdeck a TNN into Noble that goes all the way.
In: 2 Fluster 2 Pyro 2 Abrade 1 Grudge 1 Library 1 Orb
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 3 Noble
G2: I play a Delver that gets Sworded then we fight over a Gideon and I win with 3 counters. Then I slam Library into Orb and ride a TNN to victory.

R5 vs. Grixis Control 1-2
-On the draw
G1: is long and grindy but I lose it to double Edicts on my TNN in topdeck mode
In: 2 Fluster 2 Pyro 1 Dismember 1 Grim 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 3 Noble 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire

G2: Orb and Wastes take the game with TNN beats and soft counters
G3: Super long and grindy game with both of us at 1 life. A great match with many complete 180s. He gets a Strix while I draw a Daze and lose.

Spell Snare did a huge amount of work against all the control decks and Reanimator. I am definitely happy I had it over Stifle today.

[BKclassic]

@Qweerios
-One of the biggest reasons I run Stifle over Spell Snare mainboard is because I'm playing online where Show and Tell is on the uptick and I just can't afford to have a counterspell that does nothing against Show and Tell. For your meta, Spell Snare and this deck in general look really good.
-Regarding your sideboarding against UB reanimator, I would not be boarding out Hooting Mandrills. A 1 mana Tarmogoyf is a lot better than a two mana Tarmogoyf when you need to hold up counter magic.
-I would definitely be boarding out Force of Will against Grixis Control and I wouldn't board out Noble Hierarch. The huge tempo swing, especially on the draw, vastly outweighs the risk of their 2 sweepers and 1 Liliana, the Last Hope. The risk is also mitigated by not have the card disadvantage of Force of Will. I only board out Noble Hierarch against Miracles.

[Jesture]

List and small report:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Hooting Mandrills

Spells (27)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Forked Bolt
1 Tarfire

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Abrade
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dismember
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library



Thanks for taking the time to write this up, seems like you had a pretty good run outside of getting Eldrdazi'd.



R5 vs. Grixis Control 1-2
-On the draw
G1: is long and grindy but I lose it to double Edicts on my TNN in topdeck mode
In: 2 Fluster 2 Pyro 1 Dismember 1 Grim 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 3 Noble 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire

G2: Orb and Wastes take the game with TNN beats and soft counters
G3: Super long and grindy game with both of us at 1 life. A great match with many complete 180s. He gets a Strix while I draw a Daze and lose.

Regarding your Grixis Control matchup, what's the rationale for taking out Noble Hierarchs? I've always liked them more than Tarmogoyfs here, as they're helping you get ahead a hold on the game early while also insulating against Edict effects.

My build's a little different, but if I were playing your 75 I'd consider something like this for sideboarding:

-3 Tarmogoyf, -1 Tarfire, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 Lightning Bolt, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Dismember, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +1 Winter Orb, +1 Sylvan Library

Cards coming in are pretty straight forward, I think I'm a little less high on Flusterstorm if we already have 2 Snares in the deck. I don't mind leaving a couple of bolts in for reach and Strix, but I was surprised to see you shave the Tarfire and Noble Hierarchs while leaving in the Tarmogoyfs. That 5th point of attack is crucial for getting past Gurmag Angler.

[Qweerios]

Thanks for your replies! I think you are both making good points about strategies I was unsure of...

@BKClassic,

It is true that Snare is worthless against SnT. I am willing to make that sacrifice given that Depths and Reanimator are much worst matchups IMO. I'd rather fight SnT with a good SB and it isn't all that common in my meta (rarely more than 1-2 players). I also think that Preordain and threat#15 or burn#6 have more value than Stifle in general so I wouldn't be able to play a full set...

I preffer Goyf to Mandrill against Reanimator because he puts on the pressure faster with a Noble/Daze/FoW/Surgical hand. I guess I could side out TNN instead of Mandrill but I valued the blue card for FoW and the clock against a Reanimated Griselbrand/Grave Titan of TNN over the low cost of Mandrills here. I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing Mandrill over TNN in this matchup either.

I thought a "protect the queen" strategy would be appropriate against Grixis as it is against Miracles and that FoW would become castable. FoW is definitely not that bad against Grixis because as the game drags on they tend to flood on lands FoW's card disadvantage evens out. I had not thought about multiple Edict effects and how Noble could act as a buffer here. Going forward I definitely won't keep any more than 1-2 FoW against Grixis Ctrl and review my boarding strategy.

@Jesture,

I think taking out Nobles was a mistake and I should have used them to pressure Strixes and buffer Edicts over FoW.

Goyf is surprisingly good against Grixis because it doesn't die to Bolt, KCommand and LtLH. He is also bigger than Gurmag once a Strix or PW hits the GY. I even had Goyf swing in for 6 on T3 in one of those games. They only play 2-3 Pushes after all so Goyf tends to stick around and buffers Edicts for TNN much better than Noble.

Flusterstorm is very good against Snapcaster (Storm starts at 3), KCommand and Deluge. It also counters cantrips when they are low on Lands or stumbling against TNN/Mandrills.

I think burn spells are by far the worst cards in this matchup followed by either FoW or Noble. I also won't be siding in a single Dismember for their 0-2 Anglers anymore because the life cost is sometimes impossible to meet or puts you in burn reach when riding Library. I think FoW#2 is also better now that I keep Nobles postboard. This is what I'll be trying out next:
In: 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 2 FoW

Thanks for your insights, I really enjoy playing this deck!

[Jesture]

@Jesture,

I think taking out Nobles was a mistake and I should have used them to pressure Strixes and buffer Edicts over FoW.

Goyf is surprisingly good against Grixis because it doesn't die to Bolt, KCommand and LtLH. He is also bigger than Gurmag once a Strix or PW hits the GY. I even had Goyf swing in for 6 on T3 in one of those games. They only play 2-3 Pushes after all so Goyf tends to stick around and buffers Edicts for TNN much better than Noble.

Flusterstorm is very good against Snapcaster (Storm starts at 3), KCommand and Deluge. It also counters cantrips when they are low on Lands or stumbling against TNN/Mandrills.

I think burn spells are by far the worst cards in this matchup followed by either FoW or Noble. I also won't be siding in a single Dismember for their 0-2 Anglers anymore because the life cost is sometimes impossible to meet or puts you in burn reach when riding Library. I think FoW#2 is also better now that I keep Nobles postboard. This is what I'll be trying out next:
In: 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Forked 2 FoW

Thanks for your insights, I really enjoy playing this deck!

All fair points. I've been hinging my 75 on Winter Orb which in turn means there's a couple of things that we'll be doing differently (for example I'm pretty unlikely to cut FoW vs Grixis Control solely for how good it is with Orb.) That said, I think you make some pretty solid points about Tarmogoyf and its role in the matchup. I'll do a bit of tinkering with the deck going forward, as I'm happy with the results so far but still think the 75 could use some work.

[Qweerios]

I've been mulling over my list in search of a way to improve Eldrazi, various Control matchups, Lands and Reanimator. I ended up making slight modifications to the main and side and review some of my SB plans. Here are the changes:

-4th Goyf over 2nd Mandrills. Goyf is the better tempo play and one of our only legs to stand on against Eldrazi and Anglers. He puts on a better clock against Combo decks as well and is basically the next best thing after Delver. Mandrills act more as a 5th Goyf than a 4th TNN most of the time. Decay being uncommon and Push seeing play in very few decks makes Goyf my preffered choice for its size and casting cost.

-I moved the Dismember main over Forked Bolt to improve my odds against Eldrazis and Angler and free up a SB slot for that 3rd Pyroblast I wanted. Dismember and Forked were functionnally similar anyway.

-I changed the single Crypt in my SB for an Ooze. This change helps against Bolt decks, Maverick, Lands, and adds a relevant threat against Snapcaster decks and Storm. The only downside is to have a slower but more powerful piece of GY hate against Reanimator and Dredge. I only consider Ooze a suitable 4th piece of GY hate because of Nobles.

-The last change is a small swap from Grudge to Revelry. This change allows me to get rid of Choke and Blood Moon and have another card to bring in against Miracles and Lands.

Here's my current list and SB map open for criticism. The matchups in bold usually show up in multiples while the others tend to see play occasionally.

Creatures (15)
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Hooting Mandrills

Spells (27)
1 Dismember
1 Tarfire
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

Sideboard
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Abrade
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Winter Orb
1 Sylvan Library


AGGRO

DnT / Maverick
In: 2 Abrade 1 Revelry 1 Grim 1 Ooze 1 Library
Out: 4 Force 2 Pierce

Eldrazi
In: 2 Abrade 1 Revelry 1 Orb
Out: 2 Pierce 2 Snare

Red Stompy
In: 2 Abrade 1 Revelry
Out: 2 Snare 1 Tarfire

Delver
In: 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Ooze 0-3 Pyro
Out: 2 Pierce 2 Snare 0-3 Force

Burn
In: 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Ooze
Out: 3 Force 1 Dismember

CONTROL

Miracles
In: 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Revelry 1 Ooze 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 3 Noble 4 Daze 1 Tarfire 1 Dismembr

Grixis
In: 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Ooze 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Force 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire

Stoneblade
In: 3 Pyro 2 Abrade 1 Revelry 1 Ooze 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 3 Noble 4 Force 1 Tarfire 1 Dismembr

COMBO

Lands
In: 3 Surgical 2 Abrade 1 Revelry 1 Ooze 1 Orb 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Dismember 3 Daze

Turbo Depths
In: 2 Fluster 2 Abrade 1 Revelry 1 Library
Out: 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Dismember

SnT
In: 2 Surgical 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Revelry
Out: 2 Snare 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Dismember

Storm
In: 3 Pyro 2 Fluster 1 Ooze
Out: 3 TNN 1 Mandrills 1 Tarfire 1 Dismember

UB/BR Reanimator
In: 3 Pyro 3 Surgical 2 Fluster 1 Ooze
Out: 3 TNN 4 Bolt 1 Tarfire 1 Dismember

Dredge
In: 3 Surgical 2 Fluster 1 Grim 1 Ooze
Out: 3 TNN 2 Snare 1 Tarfire 1 Dismember

Elves
In: 2 Fluster 1 Grim
Out: 2 Snare 1 Daze

Infect
In: 2 Fluster 2 Abrade 1 Grim
Out: 3 TNN 2 Snare

Is there anything in my SB map that looks out of place?
Thanks for reading!

[Jesture]

You definitely want to find room for the Sylvan Library vs Infect. I'd recommend trimming a Force of Will or a Tarmogoyf.