[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[B88]

@B88:

hey Claudio, don't you need thought scour in your deck to make nimble mongoose + treasure cruise work? I respect your success 3 times in a row with your RUG Delver build but I'm curious how good/bad these 2 cards work together.

Why do you play Submerge in your sideboard, there aren't that many green decks around. what about other removal spells like dismember?

there are sumbmerges in 3x! :tongue:

anyway, speaking abount goose and treasure: the gain of draw 3 is more the lose the threshold many times. and when you draw 3 you'll see that in 1/2 turns goose come back in threshold!!! :cool:

[keys]

there are sumbmerges in 3x! :tongue:

anyway, speaking abount goose and treasure: the gain of draw 3 is more the lose the threshold many times. and when you draw 3 you'll see that in 1/2 turns goose come back in threshold!!! :cool:

Unless it gets countered, then you just neutered your win con...

[B88]

Unless it gets countered, then you just neutered your win con...

yes like when they counter keys spells in all onther deck!

[keys]

yes like when they counter keys spells in all onther deck!

Other spells don't have Delve...

[B88]

Other spells don't have Delve...

as you want, don't play ancestral recall :tongue: i prefer to risk draw 3 cards than take a counter!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

hi there!
this is the list wich i've made top8 3 times:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15357&iddeck=114072

unfortunately i've found lands in top8 again (i found him in swiss) and this time i lost! :cry:

That's really strange list. Why two Snares main and no Pierces? Also, those missing Cages in sb... :eek:

[sea]

Why do you play Submerge in your sideboard, there aren't that many green decks around. what about other removal spells like dismember?

maverick is a pretty tough matchup that can become winnable with submerge. its also good vs. elves, BUG, and infect.

[sea]

Unless it gets countered, then you just neutered your win con...

just test it. youre right on paper, but not in reality.

[Slide]

I don't understand why you want to keep jamming Treasure Cruise in this deck. Why would you want to play a BAD Treasure Cruise deck, when you can play a good one (UR Delver)?

It makes Goose way worse, it shrinks Goyf in the Treasure Cruise mirror, it's a dead card a lot of the time, and what exactly are you drawing 3 of? Daze? Stifle?

This card is so far off our gameplan, changing the deck to run Treasure Cruise might as well be a different deck.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't understand why you want to keep jamming Treasure Cruise in this deck. Why would you want to play a BAD Treasure Cruise deck, when you can play a good one (UR Delver)?

It makes Goose way worse, it shrinks Goyf in the Treasure Cruise mirror, it's a dead card a lot of the time, and what exactly are you drawing 3 of? Daze? Stifle?

This card is so far off our gameplan, changing the deck to run Treasure Cruise might as well be a different deck.

I see a point for one of TC as a late game bomb where the occasional REB/FoW blow out shouldn't matter that much. But then why evenn bother?
I think TC doesn't belong in RUG and there are other decks that use the card much better, but I'll remain silent as I never really tested it, and B88's results speak for themselves.

[Manipulato]

Hey Guys,

after playing the whole year with TA (lastly Deathblade), I want to give the king of Delver decks a chance again :laugh:

What do you guys think of Hooting Mandrills? Sure he get`s plowed but that`s it.
With his resilency against AD, Bolt & FB he has "pseudo" Shroud and also is castable under a "balance lock".

When I played RUG in the past the mongoose got stoped a lot by TNN, BS, Mother, Arbor+Ranger, Flickerwhisp, opposing Goose etc. and the advantage of Mandrills is that he doesnt care about those cards because he has this great trample ability. I really like his aggression & the fact that he is still big after a resolved RIP.

Sure the current meta plays more Plows than a couple month ago where everybody played AD but still I think he`s reasonable.

What do you guys mean?

Greetings

[Manipulato]

Hey Guys,

after playing the whole year with TA (lastly Deathblade), I want to give the king of Delver decks a chance again :laugh:

What do you guys think of Hooting Mandrills? Sure he get`s plowed but that`s it.
With his resilency against AD, Bolt & FB he has "pseudo" Shroud and also is castable under a "balance lock".

When I played RUG in the past the mongoose got stoped a lot by TNN, BS, Mother, Arbor+Ranger, Flickerwhisp, opposing Goose etc. and the advantage of Mandrills is that he doesnt care about those cards because he has this great trample ability. I really like his aggression & the fact that he is still big after a resolved RIP.

I playtested a bit with him and resolving 2-3 copies of him a game was never ever a problem.

Sure the current meta plays more Plows than a couple month ago where everybody played AD but still I think he`s reasonable.

What do you guys mean?

Greetings

[BKclassic]

@Manipulato- Nimble Mongoose is a brick house against U/R Delver and Urw Stoneblade, they can't answer a 3/3 shroud and it is therefore an excellent source of virtual card advantage, I wouldn't recommend cutting it.

[poxy14]

2nd on a 14man tourney with RUGMandrils (3-1)
got me some store credits in which i havent decided yet whether i go buy spellkites for my infect deck : )

creatures (13) = 4 delvers/ 4 goyfs / 3 mandrils / 1 tnn / 1 vcliq (shouldve been the 2nd tnn, the guy who borrowed my own was not present that day, switched back to cliq last minute)

lands (18) = 4 wooded/2 tarns/2misty/3volcs/3trops/4wastelands

spells (29) 3stifles/2tarfires/1 fice/3pierces...then sets of bolts/fows/dazes/ponders/bstorms

helpers: 2pithing needles/2roughs/3pyroblasts/2submerges/1dismember/1ancient grudge/1destructive revelry/2grafdiggers/1surgical extraction

i had a good run lately with my uginfect deck, and most of teammates fell to the 1 mana stonerain trap. it’s been always fun piloting my old reliable especially when it’s under the radar, been expecting urcruise and combo, and upon testing..urcruise has had troubles with green monsters..whatever it may be...goose/goyf or kingkong.

match1 (2-0) vs juancho, LEYLINES
just cruised vs this matchup as i was able to waste their white gaea’s cradle and countered timely crop rotations, 2nd game when he was able to land an opening leyline void, good thing i had a revelry on my hand to eot destroy it at some point, mandrils and goyf got there.

match2 (2-0) vs erik, ANT
expecting facing an infect, upon presenting my wooded turn 1, he got careless and was stifled the time he fetched, then i immediately followed it up with 2 delvers..game 2 when he went off, but was so unlucky to get any of his petals or a LED, his adnaus got him.

match3 (2-0) vs wilson, ELVES
again, he knew i was on infect and got punished by stifle, he kept a one lander : ), game 2 when he managed to resolve an ooze with a cradle on play but tapped out, i topdecked a ROUGH for the win, he never got back after the wrath.

match4 (1-2) vs mark, ESPERBLADE
wasnt able to control his mana and got slewed by batterskull, game 2 where i locked him down with 2 early needles to name delta and strands! i love it, easy win for me...game 3 i know im almost ahead, i carry every removal i have, bolts, rebs, grudge, backuped with counters but was facing a resolved rip. i submerged all my monsters via bstorm...i was looking for tnn or delver, they showed up very very late..i landed a vliq but just got stp’ed...if it’s the 2nd tnn i could have won.

over all i was impressed with my current tweak of just 3 mandrils, provided me fast clock vs any unfair and will not have issues with opposing tnns, tokens, armies of elves..somehow i was still lucky to face combos on the preliminaries that carries less removals, up’ped my crit count to 13 coz almost all of em are targetable since i benched goose, if it was vs removal.dec...somehow it’ll be a different story line.

[FoolofaTook]

That's really strange list. Why two Snares main and no Pierces? Also, those missing Cages in sb... :eek:

Not in relation to the RUG list but Spell Snare is a very good card in the meta right now.

Stoneforge Mystic
Young Pyromancer
Snapcaster Mage
Counterbalance
Rest in Peace
Chalice of the Void @1
Umezawa's Jitte
Tarmogoyf
Scavenging Ooze
Hymn to Tourach
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Elvish Visionary
Infernal Tutor
etc.

People tend to beat you in this meta with the things they land at 2cc or cast on turn 2 before you're ready for them. 2 Spell Snare is probably too many in a tempo list but 1 main and 1 side is probably good most of the time.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@ Poxy: Congrats!

@ Fool: Yes, that's right, but I'd still want some Spell Pierces in main, at least to stop early Terminus, Liliana or any other gamebreaker.

[SORO]

Slide:

3 Spell Pierce/3 Stifle or 2 Spell Pierce/4 Stifle? I feel more comfortable with 3 Pierces. What´s your opinion about that?

[B88]

I don't understand why you want to keep jamming Treasure Cruise in this deck. Why would you want to play a BAD Treasure Cruise deck, when you can play a good one (UR Delver)?

It makes Goose way worse, it shrinks Goyf in the Treasure Cruise mirror, it's a dead card a lot of the time, and what exactly are you drawing 3 of? Daze? Stifle?

This card is so far off our gameplan, changing the deck to run Treasure Cruise might as well be a different deck.

i don't understand why you speak without testing it! :eek:

[sea]

I don't understand why you want to keep jamming Treasure Cruise in this deck. Why would you want to play a BAD Treasure Cruise deck, when you can play a good one (UR Delver)?

It adds length to the deck. I agree, in a perfect game, we never need treasure cruise. In my experience, however, its great in the grindier match ups that Im sure youve experienced playing the deck. Its also been really good for me playing against ur, when they get a bunch of cruises off. You can keep them from running away with the game by matching their 2+ cruises with 1-2 because our cards are better, and enough spells are being cast to keep the graveyards full.

That said, at my flg legacy this sunday with 15 people, cruise and mongoose clashed with each other way more than usual. I dont think I resolved a single TC in the 4 rounds. I ended up 3-1 (losing to miracles), however, so it didnt ruin my tourney. I was able to to pitch it to FoW most of the time, and it actually got my opponent to misplay a thoughtseize twice. Definitely evidence for not playing it, though.

[Isre Morn]

"Treasureless" "Traditional" RUG Canadian Threshold / Delver with good old "Mongoose" again in the top 8 (1x) and top 16 (2x) at SCG Portland (2014/12/07) :tongue: --> http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=3&start_date=09/14/2014&end_date=12/07/2014&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20&city=Portland#content_decks_legacy-tab

8th place: Steve Mann
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77183
Flex Spots: 2 Pierce / 2 Forked / 2 Probe.
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Electrickery, 1 Hydroblast, 2 Pyroblast, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Rough.

12th place: Manuel Dizon
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77184
Flex Spots: 2 Pierce / 2 Forked / 2 Probe.
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Sulfuric Vortex, 1 Ancient Grudge, 2 Flusterstorm, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Pyroblast, 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Submerge, 2 Rough.

I would be very glad to read an article about their tournament experience and SB choices here :cool:

Also congrats to all other pilots sharing their latest success here in this thread!

Still well positioned in the metagame, great!

[Slide]

Slide:

3 Spell Pierce/3 Stifle or 2 Spell Pierce/4 Stifle? I feel more comfortable with 3 Pierces. What´s your opinion about that?

I would always keep Stifle as a 4 of. In my opinion, you either run 4 or you run none. If I didn't run Gitaxian Probe, I would either run 4 Pierces, or 2 Pierces and 2 Spell Snares. Probe makes your deck 2 cards smaller, so I'm not too worried about only having 2 pierces. I'll go into Probe more later on in this post...


i don't understand why you speak without testing it! :eek:
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have tested it. My opinion is informed.


It adds length to the deck. I agree, in a perfect game, we never need treasure cruise. In my experience, however, its great in the grindier match ups that Im sure youve experienced playing the deck. Its also been really good for me playing against ur, when they get a bunch of cruises off. You can keep them from running away with the game by matching their 2+ cruises with 1-2 because our cards are better, and enough spells are being cast to keep the graveyards full.


Yes, in my testing it's pretty decent vs things like Miracles, but it just made the game longer and I still wouldn't win. The problem in the Treasure Cruise mirror is that I found myself not wanting to cast it to not shrink my Goyf/Goose so I could play defense. UR Delver is faster than us; I believe we need to play control in this matchup. Their threats are all vulnerable to our removal/bigger creatures. Getting rid of half of that equation to draw cards was bad, in my experience.



That said, at my flg legacy this sunday with 15 people, cruise and mongoose clashed with each other way more than usual. I dont think I resolved a single TC in the 4 rounds. I ended up 3-1 (losing to miracles), however, so it didnt ruin my tourney. I was able to to pitch it to FoW most of the time, and it actually got my opponent to misplay a thoughtseize twice. Definitely evidence for not playing it, though.


I think your experience speaks to how the TC/Goose combo is bad: it adds variance to the most consistent deck in the format. That's something we do not need when we're a deck about nickle and diming other decks out of the game. UR Delver is simply a better Treasure Cruise deck because their deck maximizes putting cards in the graveyard for Cruise and nothing else; they will consistently cast Cruise with no downside.


Ok -- I'm going to talk about Gitaxian Probe now, with some relations to Treasure Cruise.

I really like Gitaxian Probe, especially in an unknown meta/large tournaments/unknown opponents. It helps smooth some draws, gives us info to make good plays, and fills the yard. All great! My problem with it is this:

1) It is best on turn 1 and then becomes worse (less cards in their hand as the game goes on = less info gained)
2) The lifeloss is relevant vs UR Delver (and burn, which I think is well positioned, drawing it in multiples makes it a Street Wraith)
3) It SUCKS to Brainstorm into.

I've been debating on cutting it down to 1 copy/entirely, mostly because of the third point (which Treasure Cruise also falls into). I think if it were Spell Pierce/Snare, it makes our "You do something, Brainstorm in response, find a counterspell/removal and answer your spell" play a lot better, which in my experience playing the deck is VERY relevant; especially if you are playing Brainstorm patiently and correctly.

So, I'm going to test cutting down to 1 Probe and adding a Spell Snare (seems real good in the meta right now, especially VS Miracles).


In other news, looks like 2 Classic RUG decks made top 16 this weekend. Those maindecks and one of the sideboards look awfully familiar...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

A sidenote: those scg sites are such a pain, I'm still not used to the ***** Delver nonsense...
Congrats to both pilots!

[sea]

A sidenote: those scg sites are such a pain, I'm still not used to the ***** Delver nonsense...

Those names confuuse me too. I ask newer players what colors they represent all the time. XD

Its weird how scg has adopted the new khans names, but still aren't using the ravnica ones for u/r delver.

[wbw]

Steve Mann decklist is missing 3 SB cards, probably the artifact hate, but that still leaves 1-2 slot undefined. Does anyone knows what they are?

[Tammit67]

I've eschewed probe. While I love the information, the reasons Slide listed (in addition to the presentation of current threats) has made me go 2 pierce, 1 snare, 2 chain lightning, 1 fire//ice. Spell snare has been really good this past month for me and I have a second in the board. Carsten's article on SCG today highlights why it's positioned well.

4 Stifle all day, especially with the vulnerable manabases.

All those SCG lists are basically the same. There is no way 2 rebs but 1 pyro is correct when you might need threshold and I'm not a fan of vortex, but it's winning so what do I know

[cartothemax]

Had my small local this weekend and finished 3-1. Finishing top 4 for $42 bucks store credit.

I beat Elves!, UR Delver, and Painter. Losing to Burn. I am running the "stock" list of 54 with x3 Spell Pierce, x1 Spell Snare, and x2 Forked Bolt.

The 3rd Spell Pierce is in the main to free up a slot in my sideboard. This also pushed Probe out of my main board as I cut another one to make room for the Snare as well. The one-off Spell Snare hit a lot of relevant cards and at it's worst was a blue card for Force. UR Delver just can't handle Goose and Goyf. Post board Painter feels like a pretty positive matchup. Just need to keep counters for Blood Moon effects.

This is my sideboard -> x2 Rough, x3 Pyroblast, x1 Vendilion Clique, x1 Pithing Needle, x2 Grafdigger's Cage, x1 Krosan Grip, x1 Ancient Grudge, x3 Submerge, x1 Sulfuric Vortex.

Rough did a lot of work for me out of the sideboard (getting two creatures about every time). Burn really sucked to play against. I am going to replace one of the Submerges with a Zuran Orb because I had no strategy to even attempt to execute.

[index]

hey guys, what do you think about cutting completely the Submerges and adding more burn cards into the SB ?

That's my sb in the current meta:

3x Rough//Tumble
3x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
2x Price of Progress
1x Vendillion Clique (maybe a Sulfuric Vortex)
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grafdiggers Cage

Greets

[wbw]

hey guys, what do you think about cutting completely the Submerges and adding more burn cards into the SB ?

That's my sb in the current meta:

3x Rough//Tumble
3x Pyroblast
2x Flusterstorm
2x Price of Progress
1x Vendillion Clique (maybe a Sulfuric Vortex)
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grafdiggers Cage

Greets

PoP is great vs Lands, Shardless BUG and Blade variants. Submerge is worth its weight in gold against Goyf decks, Elves, Infect and Maverick. Am I missing some relevant deck?

So it is a meta call as always.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't think that you may cut Submerge, unless your meta s extremely predictable and devoid of green. There's always at least some Goyf, kotR or anything else roaming aroud, and against BUG, you got no other tool how to get rid of Tombstalker.
So it's a meta call, as already said.

[sea]

with maverick, elves, and RUG all doing well recently, this seems like a really bad time to take submerge out of the board.

[sawatarix]

I completely understand Index submerge has seen better days when RUG Delver and Maverick were both Tier 1 during 2012. Number one targets where opposing Tarmogoyfs and Knights but these creatures are pretty rare nowadays.

What i really like are the 3 rough/tumble in your sideboard in order to plague wind our opponent if he is on UR/UWRDelver.

[sea]

Number one targets where opposing Tarmogoyfs and Knights but these creatures are pretty rare nowadays.


Those creatures were in half of the top 8 of the last major event, and there was an elf deck to boot.

Submerege goes in against 5/8 decks in the top 8 at scg portland.

[index]

Don't understand me wrong, submerge is a super awesome card. And also super effective vs Marit lage.
But Rough/Tumble does the job much better vs elfes than 1-2 Submerge. And it's also super vs UR Delver wich is the most played Deck atm.

[Contract Killer]

Quick question if anyone could help me out some with sideboarding tips? To be honest I should know these by heart now and its probably just nerves getting to me. Anyways on to the actual questions:

Running a singleton Sylvan main should be taken out against other tempo decks (UR delver, bug, Patriot, etc), storm and elves right? And left in against miracles, mid range decks like maverick/junk, and combo decks where our life doesn't matter as much like SnT and Reanimator?

Elves to be honest in my year and a half of experience with RUG I haven't really found a good way of sideboarding mainly because it just seems so bad of a match up. Goose seems like the worst threat due to slowness and can get shrunk very fast if they have DRS + wirewood (yeah I know kill drs on sight). At the same time 1 mana threat with shroud has advantages vs goyf that can get decayed and the other mana could be used for spot removal/cantrip. Both are arguably bad because of elves blocking them all day, but we still need some threats and one seems like it should be cut postboard. Would something like this be good (again should sylvan come out here? life loss/2 drop that does nothing seems bad, but finding rough and extra removal is key in the mu):
OTP: - 4 goose, 2 snare, 2 stifle // + 2 sub, 2 rough, 2 cage, Clique, needle
OTD: - 4 goose, 4 daze // + 2 sub, 2 rough, 2 cage, Clique, needle

Miracles everytime I've drawn daze even otp sideboarded it just seems bad and something like flusterstorm or pyroblast is just better knowing the game will go long. Shaving a goyf and wasteland both seem correct as goyf is the weakest threat and wasteland kind of lacks luster here (enough to merit cutting 1 imo)
- forked bolt, chain, wasteland, goyf, 4 daze, // + 2 flusterstorm, 3 pyroblast, clique, needle, revelry

UR delver this is one I'm actually not 100% sure about since I was MIA through most of October and haven't played the MU much. Sylvan seems way to slow and our life is to precious here.
OTP: - 4 force, 2 chain, sylvan // + 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, 2 rough
OTD: - 2 force, 2 daze, sylvan, stifle // + 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, 2 rough
OTD keeping at 2 force seems good and the sylvan still goes out than something like shaving 2 daze and a stifle seeing as they suck OTD?

A lot of this is just based on miracles is the most skill intensive mu IMO which I've always felt is 50/50. Elves just has always been frustrating and I still haven't found that good of a sideboard I think. UR delver like I said I just fear due to lack of experience against playing against the new cruise builds. Any input greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
CK

[index]

Quick question if anyone could help me out some with sideboarding tips? To be honest I should know these by heart now and its probably just nerves getting to me. Anyways on to the actual questions:

Running a singleton Sylvan main should be taken out against other tempo decks (UR delver, bug, Patriot, etc), storm and elves right? And left in against miracles, mid range decks like maverick/junk, and combo decks where our life doesn't matter as much like SnT and Reanimator?

Elves to be honest in my year and a half of experience with RUG I haven't really found a good way of sideboarding mainly because it just seems so bad of a match up. Goose seems like the worst threat due to slowness and can get shrunk very fast if they have DRS + wirewood (yeah I know kill drs on sight). At the same time 1 mana threat with shroud has advantages vs goyf that can get decayed and the other mana could be used for spot removal/cantrip. Both are arguably bad because of elves blocking them all day, but we still need some threats and one seems like it should be cut postboard. Would something like this be good (again should sylvan come out here? life loss/2 drop that does nothing seems bad, but finding rough and extra removal is key in the mu):
OTP: - 4 goose, 2 snare, 2 stifle // + 2 sub, 2 rough, 2 cage, Clique, needle
OTD: - 4 goose, 4 daze // + 2 sub, 2 rough, 2 cage, Clique, needle

Miracles everytime I've drawn daze even otp sideboarded it just seems bad and something like flusterstorm or pyroblast is just better knowing the game will go long. Shaving a goyf and wasteland both seem correct as goyf is the weakest threat and wasteland kind of lacks luster here (enough to merit cutting 1 imo)
- forked bolt, chain, wasteland, goyf, 4 daze, // + 2 flusterstorm, 3 pyroblast, clique, needle, revelry

UR delver this is one I'm actually not 100% sure about since I was MIA through most of October and haven't played the MU much. Sylvan seems way to slow and our life is to precious here.
OTP: - 4 force, 2 chain, sylvan // + 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, 2 rough
OTD: - 2 force, 2 daze, sylvan, stifle // + 3 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, 2 rough
OTD keeping at 2 force seems good and the sylvan still goes out than something like shaving 2 daze and a stifle seeing as they suck OTD?

A lot of this is just based on miracles is the most skill intensive mu IMO which I've always felt is 50/50. Elves just has always been frustrating and I still haven't found that good of a sideboard I think. UR delver like I said I just fear due to lack of experience against playing against the new cruise builds. Any input greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
CK

1# I wouldn't board sylvan libary out vs any sort of combo/storm decks. Because it's the only way of CA we have and as you said lifepoints doesn't matter in those mu's. Vs Tempo/Decay decks i would board it immediately out.

2# Vs Elves! the right board plan should be -4 Daze -3/4 Stifle +any hate you have + flusterstorm. Because Flusterstorm is in every sitatuion better than daze and Stifle. Just don't let them enter the play, burn the creatures asap and land a goyf/delver. (because of this MU i cut the submerges and added a 3rd Rough/tumble and 2nd Cage which give me more flexibility imo)

3# Vs MIracles it gets a little bit tricky. When i play vs miracles i always look at my opp how he plays,tap out, is able to risk and anything like that. Then i decide how to board vs him/her. If he plays a little bit risky i keep my daze's in and board out the pierces and i go all on the tempo-plan. If he/her is very carful i go all on the controll plan. That means i board out all tempo ( Daze,wasteland and spell pierce) and board all the controll elements in(even things like sulfur elemental) And i wouldn't board reverly in in neather of the 2 plans.

4# After my testings (about 100 games) Vs UR Treasure Delver i think the right boarding plan is to go on the control-plan. I just board out any sort of tempo (daze, stifle) because they are able to play easyly around it, also they play more lands that produce mana which makes our stifle-waste plan just not good imo. And board in the flusterstorms/Pyros/Rough's. Which fits perfect with my SB ( see above ). Overall i thiink UR Delver is a very good mu for us. Just land a green spell, keep a burn spell in your backhand if they do any tricks with their Swiftspear and trample over them with our better creatures.

I hope i could help you a little bit.

Greets

[sawatarix]

Anyone who has experience with canadian ******** including standstills?
sounds maybe weird but that might be an opportunity to build a tempo oriented deck with heavy manadenial as we know it + a cardadvantage machine. could be our *treasure cruise* somehow.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying its good but it's worth testing it in my opinion.

Deploying an early thread/mishras factoy followed by a standstill is still a powerful play in legacy.

This is my first testing list after some testing games:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

3 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Forked Bolt

4 Fore of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze

4 Mishras Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Anyone who can share more information/impressions about this kind of deck?

regards, Kai

[Asthereal]

Anyone who has experience with canadian ******** including standstills?
sounds maybe weird but that might be an opportunity to build a tempo oriented deck with heavy manadenial as we know it + a cardadvantage machine. could be our *treasure cruise* somehow.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying its good but it's worth testing it in my opinion.

Deploying an early thread/mishras factoy followed by a standstill is still a powerful play in legacy.

This is my first testing list after some testing games:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf

3 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Forked Bolt

4 Fore of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze

4 Mishras Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

Anyone who can share more information/impressions about this kind of deck?

regards, Kai
Looking at this list I would say there are two major issues:
- The mana base is pretty terrible.
- The mana denial plan with Stifle looks rather silly if you plan for an early Standstill.

The first one you have undoubtedly noticed, so I won't go into detail about that.
The second one deserves a more detailed explanation:

The beautiful thing about Canadian Thresh is that almost no card is ever dead. The only card that is sometimes bad is Stifle (which is why some people cut it every now and then). Under Standstill, people tend to drop a few lands, and then break it when they feel they have an opportunity to fight whatever stuff was drawn with Standstill. Not very many people just break it right away. But the main point is: you don't get to decide. People know Canadian attacks the mana base, so if we give them time, they will take that time to draw a few more lands and play them. Stifle will proceed to be dead for the rest of the game.
You could try to negate this by waiting to cast Standstill until you have used your in hand Stifle, but until then Standstill is a dead card, and if your opponent manages to delay your use of Stifle, both are temporarily dead cards. So whatever happens, the two put together will inevitably cause you to have 1-2 dead cards in hand at times, which in such a cutting edge deck with fast but not extremely powerful stuff will cause you to lose games.

(Side note: in DreadStill people would run both, but there Stifle is never bad because of obvious reason.)

Concluding:
If you were to extensively test this idea, I would recommend cutting the Stifles. This makes room for an additional fetch (improving the mana base, which I feel is needed badly), and perhaps some more cantrips. Probe could be good here, since it will show you whether your opponent can answer Standstill or not, but since I didn't see any Ponders yet in your list, I'd probably play three of those first, in order to improve consistency.

Last remark: You now run enchantments that die. This improves Goyf quite a bit. Perhaps, if there is room, you could add the third and fourth of those.

Hope this helps!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like the idea of Delver-go, Standstill-go deck, but Canadian Thresh isn't the one, imho. I believe that to use Standstill one needs a deck that utilizes it better (even Dreadstill ain't that good ever since Decay) and the fact that Stifle and Standstill might be unreliable from time to time, and that we still won't be able to win the attrition wars (2-3 SS against 4 TCs or CB/Top or JTMs or w/e), makes this idea weird.
I already thought about playing Delver and Standstill (I think that it was nedleeds who already mentioned that), but it was before KTK and now it seems futile.

[sawatarix]

Thank you for the quick responses, really appreciate that.

you both are absolutely right, the more i think of it the more i agree with your ideas.
this deck should maybe have more hard-counter like counterspell in the deck instead of stifle as stifle gets bad in the lategame.

the idea of playing a thread on turn 1 with standstill backup on turn 2 really appeals to me and i would like to build a deck around it, still not sure which spells are good for it.
I just saw Lam Phans Landstilldeck in the top8 of GP NY which is a tempodeck (!) and i was wondering if there is a way to build a *better* tempo-landstill deck

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Thank you for the quick responses, really appreciate that.

you both are absolutely right, the more i think of it the more i agree with your ideas.
this deck should maybe have more hard-counter like counterspell in the deck instead of stifle as stifle gets bad in the lategame.

the idea of playing a thread on turn 1 with standstill backup on turn 2 really appeals to me and i would like to build a deck around it, still not sure which spells are good for it.
I just saw Lam Phans Landstilldeck in the top8 of GP NY which is a tempodeck (!) and i was wondering if there is a way to build a *better* tempo-landstill deck

I think you should start a new thread in either N&D or maybe [SCD]. Imho the very good shell for Standstill are Faeries, and they got lots of them with flash (eot Fae, main phase SS) and they have solid etb effects, don't rely on instants and are redundant enough to not care of Decay, esp. with that faerie that gives shroud to other faeries. Aether Vial seems good, too.
I'm not sure if Delver can effectively use Standstill. It's not an instant or sorcery, there are other tools for CA/CQ in blue, ones that even flip the bug, and the +1/+1 bonus for Goyf might even backfire. Not tomention the tactical problems asociated with card.
If I'd wanted to play Delverstill, it'll be very different build than RUG Thresh. And I'd played Misdirections, maybe, to save my bugs, Counterbalances and Dreadnoughts from Decay.

[Contract Killer]

What do you think of this recent list by Steve Mann http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77678

Creatures
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
3 Goyf
3 Pyromancer

Instants/Sorceries
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Daze
2 Forked Bolt
2 Pyroblast

Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
3 polluted Delta
3 Misty
1 island
1 tropical island
4 volcanic island

Sideboard
1 needle
1 izzet Staticaster
1 goyf
2 vortex
1 grudge
1 electrickery
1 envelop
2 hydroblast
2 pyroblast
2 spell pierce
1 forked bolt

Personally I think it looks really weak. I mean all he's using green for is goyf which is definitely worth it, but seems not worthwhile for just goyf. In addition with the light green spell count having only one green mana source to cast it off of seems bad. I could see 3 volc 2 trop split with a list that ditched goose for swiftspear (again something that seems bad to me), but only 1 green source really?
It just looks like UR cruise Delver with goyf smashed in it. Why run goyf if you're playing UR delver and can afford to go with a more basic mana base and have Price of Progress which will probably do at least 1 goyf hit which is all you really need when running a fast UR list.
In all it just seems like a UR delver cruise list stretched for added goyf support. I could see add goose because the bin will get filled fast and a 3/3 for 1 with shroud is a thing I hear, but there's the non-bo with cruise to worry about. Anyways food for thought I might try to look up his matches and watch it in a day or so.

[Tormod]

I just saw Lam Phans Landstilldeck in the top8 of GP NY which is a tempodeck (!) and i was wondering if there is a way to build a *better* tempo-landstill deck

For whats worth, Lam is a regular at my local. Lam's deck is not a tempo deck. He'll tell you that himself. All his threats are lands, which is inherently not tempo BC you can only play one land a turn. The power of the deck is the ability to run pyroclams which is so good right now against so many match ups.

[Que]

What is usually the plan of attack against ANT? I'm going to be playtesting myself to get a better idea, but I figured I would ask so that I generally know what to expect.

My current list is the traditional stock list with the flex spots being 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Forked Bolt, and 2x Spell Pierce.

Here is my current SB (this will prob change based off my meta, but I liked it so far):
It is Nick Johnson's board:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough

EDIT: is Null Rod simply for Top? Playing in my lgs it didn't really help much against equipment (at least not batterskull).

[index]

Null rod is for:

-jitte
-led
-Lotus petal
-Æther vial
-top
-sword of X and Y
-chrome mox
-mox Diamond

Its just so good vs storm

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What is usually the plan of attack against ANT? I'm going to be playtesting myself to get a better idea, but I figured I would ask so that I generally know what to expect.

My current list is the traditional stock list with the flex spots being 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Forked Bolt, and 2x Spell Pierce.


The plan is to play 2 Snare instead of GPs. :tongue:

I sb out two FBs and one LB, then I cut some number of crappy creatures (Goyf vs. NM depending on draw/play) to make room for:
- 2 Grafidgger's Cage that stop PiF
- 3 Pyroblassts to hinder their cantripping
- 2 FLusterstorms for obvious reasons
- at least one Rough to lackluster (or cantrip) into it if goblins show up.

You basically play the heavy control role in first turns and once you're on three colored mana, you land your threat, otp you may play it a turn faster, esp. if you have some number of Dazes. Cantrip into any sort of permission, Waste lands at first sight (no need to try cut them of color, it doesnt work agaisnt deck with nine fetches and four LPs), Stifle fetchlands (as they'd CT/Duress you before storm triggers), keep Bolts for Xantid Swarm.
Sometimes they need to destroy Cage if they cannot play the IT chain or EtW, but be prepared for anything ugly like Decay-your-Goyf or natural-ToA-from-hand.
Play cautiously but don't give them too much time. As I already wrote I prefer to lay my threat after I got my game under control (Volc open for REB/BS, Trop/fetch open for Snare/Pierce), but you need to evaluate your hand and play accordingly. If you lack reasonable hand, you may play threat asap so that you got untaped lands later when you draw some counterspells.
Look, I know it's disheartening to lose on turn1 with what would otherwise be a "hand with potential", but not every game goes like this...


G3 was pretty intense, and I sat on one land and handful of countermagic, then I drawn a Foothills (commented by Pavel - datanaga on Source - as "this is gamebreaking draw"). I played Delver...
...so it isn't completely silly to tap out on turn1 to lay Delver/Mongoose and then hope for more gas later.
But I mostly prefer to have one land open for Pierce/Stifle/w-e (or at least bluff the card) so that the opponent doesn't have that easy time playing solely around Daze and FoW.
Speaking of pre-board games, these are pretty often a disastrous affair, as we pack far too many dead cards (too many threats, all FBs) and our permission is light (contrary to say CB or CotV) and our zero CA tools make it often impossible to acquire enough cards before the stream of Duresses forces through a winning card. Also, the lack of lifegain kinda suck, because natural Tendrils are far easier when the storm dude is playing against an opponent that effectively starts on 18-16 life.

I know that I'm a bit too much stuck on the "threat/tempo/permission" theme, but this one is really tricky.
You need to play some creatures because if you don't apply pressure, the opponent has all the time to sculpt a winning hand, esp. preboard when he can choose w/e route he wishes to due to our inability to fight the gy and liability to IT chains or natural Tendrils.
But you also need to out-maneuver the oppoent via the usual tempo tools (andby this I mean StifleWaste), because you cannot trust your deck to win against an opponent with several lands and lots of discard. You really need to Stifle the fetches (I keep the card for strom trigger only in a desperate or in already won situations), as het will get rid of it before going off, and your soft counters work only against a mana-deprived opponents, which definitely isn't a dude firmly sitting on two basic Islands and a set of Petals.
Yet you need an open mana for when they start to threaten you, and frankly, this might happen as soon as turn1, altough more realistically: turn2.
Finding the balance between:
- laying threats and applying pressure
- keeping their options limited via mana denial
- and having mana open for permission
is quite a task. From what ideas and experiences I gathered from both sides of the fences, I'm like 100% sure that preboard this mu is in ANTs favor, while postboard it's about our particular build, ANTs tricks and sb surprises and of course, about the plan they choose or are forced into. While RUG plays still the same, storm might decide to go the gy route, win with EtW, surprise with Swarm, build the IT chain or natural Tendrils, Extirpate FoWs, chumpblock with SCM...
Also, I don't follow the ANT thread anymore, but I know that at least Slosh plays two Bolts main which are extraordinary effective against threat-light RUG deck, because both Goyf and NM are slow (one is small, the other is expensive), so killing the Delver may buy them lots of time, esp. if we've BS-ed away all the other dudes to sculpt a solid hand.

From all the less expected cards that we may sb (Cage, REBs and Flusterstorms are kinda obvious, right?), I'd say that those are solid:
Tormod's Crypt. Hinders threshold and/or flashbacks. Has some limited applications in LftL.dec matchup and is pretty solid against gy based decks. Playable?
Additional counterspells. Pierce no.3-4 or Envelop are quite solid in Miracles matchup, so I may see them in sb
Null Rod is an extremely effective card, but it comes at a price which is cmc2. But it stops all of their artifact mana, and that's pretty good especially considering the power of LED.
Surgical Extraction to mess with their gy and to gain information on their sb plan.
Vendilion Clique is a really fine card, but that's not a surprise...

Also, Cabal Therapy is a real skilltester, and if you play against a dude who knows how to play it, your chances go down accordingly. You may somehow balance this buy playing lots of unexpected cards (Envelop, Extraction or anything like that), but there's a border you cannot cross and playing say Disrupt is a bit too silly.
Unless my lgs would be 50% storm, I'd stay away from Spellstutter Sprite or Riptide Pilferer, although these are exactly the dudes I'm always itching to try out, as the one dodges Duress and the other messes with their hand.
Also... play Scavenging Ooze.

[Contract Killer]

What is usually the plan of attack against ANT? I'm going to be playtesting myself to get a better idea, but I figured I would ask so that I generally know what to expect.

My current list is the traditional stock list with the flex spots being 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Forked Bolt, and 2x Spell Pierce.

Here is my current SB (this will prob change based off my meta, but I liked it so far):
It is Nick Johnson's board:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough

EDIT: is Null Rod simply for Top? Playing in my lgs it didn't really help much against equipment (at least not batterskull).

Pretty much what Bed Decks Player said is on the money in terms of how to play the match up. As for that specific sideboard I would do something like the following:
+2 cage (shuts off past in flames)
Null Rod (hits LED, but similar to cage this isn't full proof. They can still go rit, rit, rit past in flames, rit, rit, rit win without having petals/LED)
+2 pyroblast
+1 extraction (hold until past in flames then hit IT and they probably won't be able to go off)
- 2 forked bolt
- 1 bolt
-3 goyf (personally I prefer cutting goyf always as the two mana just seems worse even when on the play than being able to drop a t1 threat)
I also think adding a single rough out of the board is a bit much against ANT. They tend to be more resilient and just wait to kill you with Tendrils. Now against TES I would hands down board in the 2 roughs since their main game plan against tempo is T1 or T2 dump lethal goblins.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Pretty much what Contract Killer said is on the money in terms of how to sideboard Roughs. In fact the more I think about it, the more I'm sure that while 2 Roughs are a must against TES, you don't really need them against ANT, as they'd go for the slower ToA kill most of the times, especially if you know that the player likes to use the double ToA or natural Tendrils plan.
I dislike the snail pace of NM and that it chews the hit points really slowly, otoh, there were many times where I simply couldn't play the Goyf, although it'll be an immediate 5/6. Definitely sb out the Goyfs, not Mongooses...

[Que]

Thank you guys for all your advice. Very insightful. I will try to apply the strategy :)

[apon]

Hello everybody,
i recently discussed watching a SCG video with some friends about starting a game with RUG delver.

When you are on the play and don't know what your opponent is playing it's sometimes difficult to choose the best way to start. For example, that seems a good hand:
delver of secrets
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Fetch
Wasteland
Ponder
Lightning Bolt

Knowing what tour opponent is playing is easy:

fetch-delver against control or not winning turn 1 combos
fetch-go against the rest to be able to :

play pierce
protect your only blue land against a possible wasteland
kill a mana curve creature like deathrite shaman at end of opponent's turn
playing brainstorm at end of opponent's turn if nothing before happened for better choose what to do in your next turn







If you don't know what your opponent is playing, what would be your start?
thanks and happy new year!

[Niggurath]

Being on the play, and against an unknown opponent, I would fetch volcanic, delver, go.

Early pressure is key against almost any deck. If my opp wastes my volcanic, it's ok, my delver is still alive. If my opp kills my delver, it's ok, I'll cantrip for another threat and will protect it with pierce.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What Niggurath wrote.

I find the Rough/Tumble pretty appealing in main. It's not that good to warrant say two slots, namely considering cmc2, but the fact that it takes out YP and his team, or kills any amout of Deathrites, or Mor plus dude, or several Elves is pretty solid. Any opinions?

[index]

The right Play is

fetch -> volc-> Ponder

And searching for a Daze fow and 2nd manaland. As we Only Play 14 Real lands The risk of being wasted turn 1 and dont find a 2nd Land is in too high imo. delver t1 is too high Risk vs unknown Decks because of being able to get easy knocked out the Game.

Greets

[Einherjer]

I want to see somebody wasting me after I deploy Delver of Secrets turn 1.

Greetings

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I want to see somebody wasting me after I deploy Delver of Secrets turn 1.

Greetings

Happens every time. With the very few lands we play, it's often a game over, although it takes a few more turns.
I'm not sure. On the one hand, this is how I very often start. On the other hand, I just now finished a game where I lost simply becasue of the "turn1 Delver" doctrine. Seems like Ponder for a second land is safe. It also depends on your metagame. Even if you're playing against an unkonwn dude, it's still not in a vacuum, it happens in some timespace. Post Khans? Everyone plays TC so I guess I'm against URx something. Silly lgs like our own? I dig for Force as there are several ppl with ANT.

[jtm]

Imo otp it can't be right to cast Ponder if we have Delver in hand.

The only time i would do that is, if i know i play against a rly bad player and he plays Wasteland. Cause if he Timewalks himself while we have a Delver in play that's just fine for me....
Though we do play not much lands, the blind T1 Wasteland is such a bad play i don't think any worthy opp would do that.

Reguards

E: +1 Einherjer

[BKclassic]

If you are on the play against a completely unknown opponent, definitely play Delver first. But if you have knowledge your opponent is running Wasteland and 1cc removal, hedge your bet and play Ponder first. Smart opponents know we often have to keep land-light hands, it is often your opponent's best bet to try and Waste you out of the game. If your only cantrip is Brainstorm with no Ponder, just jam Delver, Brainstorm is a lot worse than Ponder at finding your second colored source.

[sawatarix]

Excactly,don't forget that we actually want to win games with this deck ;)

[apon]

thanks for your replies. fetch delver is my same play, but other colleagues would play differently like some of you.

happy new year!

[ThomasDowd]

thanks for your replies. fetch delver is my same play, but other colleagues would play differently like some of you.

happy new year!


pondering without a plan is in general bad practice. knowing what they are playing will help resolve the ponder more effectively. i would play delver with this hand unless i knew for certain my opponent was on a turn one combo deck

[blablub]

if u think delver on turn 1 is wrong, stop playin tempo
if ur opponent wastes you after turn 1 delver, thx for timewalk for free :)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

if u think delver on turn 1 is wrong, stop playin tempo
if ur opponent wastes you after turn 1 delver, thx for timewalk for free :)
This is not exactly true, although my knee-jerk reaction was "play Delver!"
An opponent that Wastelands my only land might be in fact a pretty clever. (Not even considering G. Probe that revealed my weakness.) RUG is known for its tight and greedy manabase and shaky keeps. If his hand is nothing but lands and removal, he may try to cut me of lands, effectively stopping my development at all. Next thing in line is to remove the Delver, which is especially easy considering I got no Island to pay for Daze. (Lets say I drawn no land and he got his one for Bolt/Swords/Disfigure.) I met opponents who gladly exchanged a few life points just to make sure I'll never return to game.
I'm not saying that th whole "Delver, go" is a bad plan, and it has its pros like applying pressure, seeing more cards in next turn's Ponder, etc. But saying that it's the only possible play, that anyone daring to evaluate the situation otherwise should stop playing tempo, or that it's a fool-proof plan, is not true. Because I lost fair amount of games with exactly this kind of plays.

[snorlaxcom]

What do you think of this recent list by Steve Mann http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77678

I love this classic archetype and thread, but this is not rug and belongs in ur thread. Just look at the manabase. No wastelands/stifles with only 2 daze? Nothing rug about that. This isn't 2008 anymore where you jam goyf (and grip) into everything. The meta for that event was anything but representative of the current state of legacy. So many entrants were trying to mindgame and go deep into solving the 16 person meta (which is fine with thousands at stake).

During coverage of his match it was reported he didn't test the deck much before registration either.

I snap waste t1 when I see stifle mana gone and the percentage of you having another blue is so low. I'm used to you trying to ride a delver. I would also like to prevent a goyf from showing up and having a hand with 3 lands is even less likely after I fire a waste. Having a delver go the distance has been very rare in my exp and your fumbling manabase is more of a sure thing. Just my 2 cents as the guy on the other side of the table on the draw.


Oh and a happy new year!

[Contract Killer]

Hello everybody,
i recently discussed watching a SCG video with some friends about starting a game with RUG delver.

When you are on the play and don't know what your opponent is playing it's sometimes difficult to choose the best way to start. For example, that seems a good hand:
delver of secrets
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Fetch
Wasteland
Ponder
Lightning Bolt

Knowing what tour opponent is playing is easy:

fetch-delver against control or not winning turn 1 combos
fetch-go against the rest to be able to :

play pierce
protect your only blue land against a possible wasteland
kill a mana curve creature like deathrite shaman at end of opponent's turn
playing brainstorm at end of opponent's turn if nothing before happened for better choose what to do in your next turn







If you don't know what your opponent is playing, what would be your start?
thanks and happy new year!

Anybody who grapples with these lines of play either don't play tempo very often or are new to playing the rug. Either is a fine reason we all have to start somewhere right? If you're on the play with that hand there's really only 2 lines of play and personally I only think one is good.

delver of secrets
Spell Pierce
Brainstorm
Fetch
Wasteland
Ponder
Lightning Bolt

So for starters on the play in the blind with this I would do the following T1: fetch -> volcanic -> delver pass. If you worry about keeping one land hands with tempo decks then you should choose another deck. We play 14 colored sources and if you start with ponder and brick forced to shuffle then next turn you still have to play out your threat, still won't have a second land, and still won't have protection.

The land choice I will admit is a crap shoot in the blind. I personally would go with volcanic so we have access to bolt for whatever turn 1 crit they may play which could very well be drs. There is an argument for getting trop that way if they do take delver out and we ponder turn 2 it's easier to find another threat. In the blind both are valid and you just have to roll the dice. Against something like Jund or UWR delver decks that have like 8+ removal I would go for trop since it's likely we won't be able to protect our threat forever.

Now if you're worried about someone playing wasteland turn 1 against you don't. Anyone who has played legacy long enough knows that playing out a wasteland turn 1 when a tempo deck has a turn 1 threat is straight up bad. Our whole game plan is to keep their lands off the table to make our cheap permission better. If they wasteland us turn 1 and we have another land it's really bad for them. All playing wasteland does for them is make our daze/pierce that much better. If someone wastelands you off the bat they're playing loose if you ask me. The risk is just too high for the opponent to wasteland us turn 1.

Finally if you worry about someone trying to remove delver turn 1 it's something that you can't always avoid. Most opponents will try to wait until they are out of daze range or have their own pierce/force back up. This is mainly because tempo decks have 8 free counter spells. Opponents who do jam removal turn 1 have excess removal, countermagic to back up their removal, are calling your bluff or just have a bad hand and know they need to get delver off the table if they want any chance.

As for knowing what you're playing against that becomes more complicated. Still for the most part if you're on the play turn 1 delver is right against anything. Combo decks that can go off turn 1 SnT, reanimator or storm are holding 4 aces to go off turn 1 and not care about daze or force. At that point if their hand is:
Show and tell
griselbrand
ancient tomb
petal
force
blue card
X
Then you just have bad luck because that's the god hand and it will beat just about anything. On the draw against combo you usually want to wait until turn 2 or 3 to play a threat so you can hold up pierce/snare or something.

Any tempo mirrors these days on the draw you usually have to kill a turn 1 threat (delver, drs, mother, etc) if possible and end up having to play a ponder or bolt.

Miracles is a strange beast on the draw because they kind of have a pseudo combo against us (top + counterbalance). If they have turn 1 island -> top then I would hold up mana, but if they go plains -> top or island -> ponder than just play out your delver/goose. Miracles usually won't care about delver knowing how many outs they have to it as the game progresses. What this means to us is even on the draw we can probably get a few beats in with delver before the get rid of it.

To be honest eventually if you play a tempo deck long enough these lines of play just become second nature. I've been playing rug for about 2 years mainly due to financial reasons (and it's grown on me lol). I'm not an amazing player, but I know the deck like the back of my hand. If you want some real good advice follow Jacob Wilson's videos from about a year and half or two years ago. Despite them being old videos the lines of play are the same and rug's game plan / match ups haven't changed because fundamentally it's still a tier 1 deck. Many aspects of rug delver haven't changed over the past 2 years with the deck:
delver still is a house
goose is arguably the best or second best threat
bolt is still the best removal
people still run into snare/pierce after playing around daze or vice versa
when people play around daze/pierce force might still get them

Overall rug is a hard deck to play against and so long as you play tight most opponents will make a mistake somewhere along the lines and when you capitalize on that it's an easy win.

[sawatarix]

Happy New Year Mongoose-Fans ;)

[BKclassic]

Casting Delver of Secrets in the blind is a pretty darn good play. But turn 1 Wasteland, Turn 2 kill Delver is an effective play also. If the opponent Wastelands me, there is only a 45% chance I draw one of my 12 blue sources (only 12 left after the fetch) in the next 2 draw steps and a 69% chance of drawing a blue source in the next 3 draw steps. The opponent is probably getting at least 2-3 turns of unencumbered development most likely resulting in our losing.

But say I'm on the play Game 3 against Uwr Delver, so I know my opponent is on Wasteland, Bolt and StP. The example hand is basically a God hand, if I'm able to just stay in the game and play spells, I'm around 75% to win. There's a 57% chance my opponent sees Wasteland in their first 8 cards. It is probably about 40-45% chance our opponent will be able to succeed in his or her Wasteland gambit.

So for the rational Threshold player, it should come down to whether playing Ponder instead of Delver increases your chances of losing to more than the chance of losing to a Wasteland blowout. With the given hand, I can win as long as I can play spells and interact, so I will gladly Ponder for another land to keep me in the game.

[Contract Killer]

Casting Delver of Secrets in the blind is a pretty darn good play. But turn 1 Wasteland, Turn 2 kill Delver is an effective play also. If the opponent Wastelands me, there is only a 45% chance I draw one of my 12 blue sources (only 12 left after the fetch) in the next 2 draw steps and a 69% chance of drawing a blue source in the next 3 draw steps. The opponent is probably getting at least 2-3 turns of unencumbered development most likely resulting in our losing.

But say I'm on the play Game 3 against Uwr Delver, so I know my opponent is on Wasteland, Bolt and StP. The example hand is basically a God hand, if I'm able to just stay in the game and play spells, I'm around 75% to win. There's a 57% chance my opponent sees Wasteland in their first 8 cards. It is probably about 40-45% chance our opponent will be able to succeed in his or her Wasteland gambit.

So for the rational Threshold player, it should come down to whether playing Ponder instead of Delver increases your chances of losing to more than the chance of losing to a Wasteland blowout. With the given hand, I can win as long as I can play spells and interact, so I will gladly Ponder for another land to keep me in the game.

For starters the chance of someone having a wasteland in their first 8 cards is only 36%. Probability in magic is based off of hypergeometrics. Here's a brief crash course on it:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/chrismascioli-100512-of-math-and-magic-part-1-the-hypergeometric-distribution/
Now if you don't want to bother understanding all of the math just look at the variables and you can plug them into a calculator:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

Let's look at the chance for seeing a second land off of ponder.
Population size (deck): 52 assuming we fetch (Whether we fetch or not isn't even going to change the margin by 0.01%)
sample size (cards drawn): in this case it's 3 because of ponder
number of successes in population (how many lands in the deck): 12 again based off of us fetching
successes in sample (number of lands we want in the 3 cards): 1
Average percentage of drawing a second land off of ponder turn 1 = 42%

That data essentially says roughly 3/5 games that you try a turn 1 ponder for a second land it will not work. The odds are against us if only by 8%. On the other hand our opponent will only have wasteland roughly 1/3 games on turn 1. So overall there's a 58% we brick on pond turn 1 or we can look at the bright side that there's only a 36% chance our opponent will have wasteland turn 1. I mean I'll gamble my opponent having wasteland turn 1 over trying to ponder out a second land any day with those odds.

Essentially there's a chance we concede 1/3 games if the opponent plays wasteland turn 1. So if we take the ponder route we do nothing turn 1, and still won't have a second land turn 2 3/5 games. There's also roughly 1/3 games that this plan will backfire on our opponent because we will have 2 lands in hand. The odds are in our favor in numerous ways to not ponder turn 1 and to instead play out delver.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

For starters the chance of someone having a wasteland in their first 8 cards is only 36%. Probability in magic is based off of hypergeometrics. Here's a brief crash course on it:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/chrismascioli-100512-of-math-and-magic-part-1-the-hypergeometric-distribution/
Now if you don't want to bother understanding all of the math just look at the variables and you can plug them into a calculator:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

Let's look at the chance for seeing a second land off of ponder.
Population size (deck): 52 assuming we fetch (Whether we fetch or not isn't even going to change the margin by 0.01%)
sample size (cards drawn): in this case it's 3 because of ponder
number of successes in population (how many lands in the deck): 12 again based off of us fetching
successes in sample (number of lands we want in the 3 cards): 1
Average percentage of drawing a second land off of ponder turn 1 = 42%

That data essentially says roughly 3/5 games that you try a turn 1 ponder for a second land it will not work. The odds are against us if only by 8%. On the other hand our opponent will only have wasteland roughly 1/3 games on turn 1. So overall there's a 58% we brick on pond turn 1 or we can look at the bright side that there's only a 36% chance our opponent will have wasteland turn 1. I mean I'll gamble my opponent having wasteland turn 1 over trying to ponder out a second land any day with those odds.

Essentially there's a chance we concede 1/3 games if the opponent plays wasteland turn 1. So if we take the ponder route we do nothing turn 1, and still won't have a second land turn 2 3/5 games. There's also roughly 1/3 games that this plan will backfire on our opponent because we will have 2 lands in hand. The odds are in our favor in numerous ways to not ponder turn 1 and to instead play out delver.

Thanks, that was really helpful!
Btw, I'm going to go "Thinking" every time I open a hand with two colored lands, and then I'd hesitantly play Delver with much mumbling so that I trick my opponents into turn1 Waste me. :smile:
Hope it'll work.

[wbw]

Thanks, that was really helpful!
Btw, I'm going to go "Thinking" every time I open a hand with two colored lands, and then I'd hesitantly play Delver with much mumbling so that I trick my opponents into turn1 Waste me. :smile:
Hope it'll work.

To make sure your opponent tilts, remember to say "Top deck!" when playing the second land.

[Contract Killer]

Thanks, that was really helpful!
Btw, I'm going to go "Thinking" every time I open a hand with two colored lands, and then I'd hesitantly play Delver with much mumbling so that I trick my opponents into turn1 Waste me. :smile:
Hope it'll work.

No problem. A year ago I was interested in how the probability in magic worked so I did some research. I actually tried writing my own java program to find probability of cards in a magic deck. Needless to say it was a bit of a nightmare and I gave up too man variables to keep track of, store, switch into other equations, and then display.

[M+1]

Let's look at the chance for seeing a second land off of ponder.
Population size (deck): 52 assuming we fetch (Whether we fetch or not isn't even going to change the margin by 0.01%)
sample size (cards drawn): in this case it's 3 because of ponder
number of successes in population (how many lands in the deck): 12 again based off of us fetching
successes in sample (number of lands we want in the 3 cards): 1
Average percentage of drawing a second land off of ponder turn 1 = 42%
You seem to be forgetting the shuffle option on Ponder, and the fact that succes is at least 1 land (not exactly 1).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

To make sure your opponent tilts, remember to say "Top deck!" when playing the second land.
Huh, how could I forget! Good idea... :laugh:



You seem to be forgetting the shuffle option on Ponder, and the fact that succes is at least 1 land (not exactly 1).
Well, that's true. I'd be interested how the shuffle part changes the percentage.

[tescrin]

Looks like I can't put an image up (as evidence) without hosting; so instead I'll just say:
Changing to "at least 1" means you have a 54.5% chance to find a land without shuffle (This means, BS *or* Ponder gives you this percentage)
Changing to "at least 1" with a shuffle (I.E. see 4) is roughly 65.4%***

I used deckulator with the values:
12/1
41/0
Draw 3 and 4 respectively.

***The draw 4 is flawed because it doesn't account for the +3 cards that will be in the deck after "Draw 3" into shuffle. It is likely more like 63%, but I am lazy.

EDIT:
Curiousity defeated my laziness, but I think my result is still flawed. I went with:
12/1
41/0
Draw 3
called P(A)

I then did
12/1
41/0
Draw 1
called P(B)

and then ((1-P(A)) * P(B)) + P(A) which resulted in 64.7%, which is higher than the draw 4, but i'm pretty sure that doesn't make sense.

Either way, you have a ~60-65% chance of seeing your land with a T1 ponder on the play. If you T1 ponder and are worried about T1 wasteland you have about a .35 * .39 chance of getting screwed (13.65%.) If you T1 Delver you have a 22.5% chance of seeing a colored land anyway, so you have a .78 * .39 (30.4%) chance of being screwed.

I think the T1 ponder makes good sense if they're a player known for aggressive wastelands as you have a much higher chance of being timewalked. I have no idea why the previous posters used .30% chance of wasteland over 39%. People usually run 4 if they run them.

[sawatarix]

Well let's hope that Treasure Cruise gets the banhammer so that nimble mongoose can revive again ;D
It is by far the best creature RUG has to offer and i would always play 4 if the format allowes me to do that (which is not the case at the moment)

[FelsKlette]

Happy new year!

I didn't write anything in a forum for quite a while now but reading all those flawed percentages made me register an account here to enlighten you guys :tongue:

- The chance for you drawing a second land with your t1 ponder is 65.6%. If you consider that you will draw another card at your next drawstep you are at 73.7%.
55.29% for the first 3 cards, another 23.08% after shuffeling and 23.53% at the next drawstep; so we have 1-(1-0,5529)*(1-0,2308)*(1-0,2353) =0,7370
(fyi: if ponder was draw 4 instead the chance was 66.24% rather than 65.6%. The chance for a first turn BS finding a 2. land is only 55.29% + you waste your next 2 drawsteps! )

- The chance for drawing a second land during your regular drawstep is 23.08%

- The chance of your opponent having a wasteland in his first 8 is 44.48%

So the chance of you getting screwed in this scenario is 11.7% with ponder and 34.21% without! This ignores the chance that they might not use their Wasteland even if they have it. Imo this chance is affected by our first turn play: If we play delver we put pressure on them so they might very well have other things to do - if we ponder instead, we show weakness which might induce them to waste us.

What the guy on the other side of the table should consider when thinking about whether or not to use his wasteland is that I still have 5 cards in my hand and I will draw another one next turn. With 12 lands remaining in my library this makes ̶7̶̶7̶̶.̶̶5̶̶5̶% 82.36% (for the first 5 cards theres still 13 availible lands not 12) that his attempt will fail and all he did was giving me a free timewalk...

Consindering all those numbers I think it's definitely the best play to lead with delver, probably even if I know for certain that I am up against a wasteland-deck. And for the opponent I guess with most hands without probes it's best not to go the wasteland route. They can still try for that if I miss my landdrop on turn 2 - even if it's way less poweful then, due to stifle + we get another chance to BS/ponder.

(edited for correction)

[BKclassic]

Well let's hope that Treasure Cruise gets the banhammer so that nimble mongoose can revive again ;D
It is by far the best creature RUG has to offer and i would always play 4 if the format allowes me to do that (which is not the case at the moment)

I would argue that Nimble Mongoose is better positioned in the metagame than it was pre-Treasure Cruise. Granted I primarily play online and so my observations come from dealing with the online metagame.
-Before Treasure Cruise, RUG Delver was the best Delver deck in non-Delver matchups. Nimble Mongoose is a much more robust threat than Deathrite Shaman against Miracles and Deathblade and a faster threat against combo (although graveyard interaction can certainly be invaluable). Deathrite Shaman-Delver builds, BUG and bUrg Delver, while less potent against non-Delver decks, are great against RUG Delver since Deathrite Shaman is so antithetical to Nimble Mongoose and our gameplan. There wasn't really a way to improve our chances against Deathrite Shaman without running the card ourselves, making these match-ups structurally difficult. As opposed to difficult match-ups like Maverick, which can be hard, but is reasonably winnable with sideboard considerations, where there aren't many great sideboard cards to hose Deathrite Shaman when it's in a Delver deck.
-Post Treasure Cruise, UR Delver is the new baseline Delver deck and, unlike BUG and bUrg, is a good match up. They don't have any good answers against to our large green creatures. Nimble Mongoose specifically is great because it has shroud, so they can't use burn spells on it that would let the UR player fill their graveyard and cast another Treasure Cruise. Game 1 can be difficult if they get a Young Pyromancer out of control, but post board Rough/Tumble is amazing. My record against UR Delver is around 10-2 in tournament matches. The decks that pray on Treasure Cruise decks that people are playing are pretty beatable as well. Chalice of the Void/Trinishphere decks aren't especially consistent, RUG Delver is the blue deck running the most Daze's and Spell Pierces and we have Ancient Grudge. Elves, Death and Taxes, Miracles, Sneak Attack and Storm aren't always easy but basically come down to who the better player is and who built their deck better. Apparently BUG Delver is a deck to beat still, but it unlike RUG Delver, BUG Delver matches up poorly against UR Delver where Deathrite Shaman gets burned quickly and doesn't do all that much. I don't see anyone playing Deathrite Shaman in Delver decks anymore online. So now that the BUG and bUrg decks are on the decline, RUG Delver is back to being the undisputed Delver champion, IMO.

[sawatarix]

Thx for the short Metagame summary.
I still believe that playing a delver deck without a carddrawengine (i'm talking about cruise ;D )
is not competitive enough right now.
I mean,would you play this deck when all other players slam their 1 mana ancestral recalls on the table?
In my opinion there are 2 options:
1. play cruise ourselves somehow,my buddy BB8
has been victorious so far.
(Claudio Bonanni at TC Decks)

2. Play another carddrawmachine such as sylvan library and standstill

Without those cards we are trading 1 for 1 during the first turns only to get frustrated if our opponent
refreshes his hand and board during turn 4-6.
That's normally the point of the game where we have 0 cards in hand.

[FelsKlette]

What the guy on the other side of the table should consider when thinking about whether or not to use his wasteland is that I still have 5 cards in my hand and I will draw another one next turn. With 12 lands remaining in my library this makes ̶7̶̶7̶̶.̶̶5̶̶5̶% 82.36% (for the first 5 cards theres still 13 availible lands not 12) that his attempt will fail and all he did was giving me a free timewalk...

When I thought about this a little more I realized that it is bullshit...obviously even I make mistakes :rolleyes:

As I already played a land card from my hand the remaining 5 cards are no longer random and thus can't be treated like any 5 random cards from the library!
So we have to look at the probability for the whole 7card-hand to contain no more than one land. I'd assume that hands with 4+ colored lands are mulligan anyway so I will ignore those.
Here we go: 33,95% hands with 1 land, 32,30% with 2, 15,38% with 3 lands and 18.37% mulligan hands with either 0 or 4+ lands.
This makes 41.59% of the relevant hands containing only 1 colored land! So wasting the opponents land will leave him screwed for at least one turn in 31,99% and for at least two turns in 24,46%.

But I still think that this gamble ain't woth it. Especially as the opponent doesn't even know that we are on canadian. For all he knows we could as well be UR-delver or patriot... AfaIk both of these decks play more colored lands and thus are less likely to have no second land!

[BKclassic]

@Sawatrix-
I would invite you to consider this article by Gerry Thompson http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29040_When-Did-Card-Advantage-Stop-Mattering.html

Basically he makes the point that in Magic's current age, card advantage is secondary to tempo in terms of what wins games of Magic. Treasure Cruise is basically the ultimate case in point. Since Treasure Cruise opponents want to run a 16 cantrip build (4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Probe, 4 Cruise) in order to utilize Treasure Cruise effectively and since Treasure Cruise is incompatible with graveyard based green creatures, there is a lot space for us to tempo our opponents out of the game. Mostly Nimble Mongoose, but to a lesser extent Tarmogoyf, are effective against Treasure Cruise, similar to how Storm decks are effective against Treasure Cruise. Granted, we are not quickly comboing our opponents out through modicum of disruption, but the constraints Treasure Cruise puts on our opponents deck make it hard for our them to interact effectively with us. They need to take time to cast tons of cantrips to find action, their removal does not kill our large green creatures, our answers match their threats, and Treasure Cruise just draws them into more of the same. Our strategy results in our green creatures being able to create enough virtual card advantage to outpace our Treasure Cruise opponents.

It is true that there are Treasure Cruise builds that we don’t match up well against. BUG Delver is mostly unbeatable, but UR Delver stomps all over it and consequently is not being played much, I’ve only had one match against BUG since Treasure Cruise was released.

The decks trying to hate on Treasure Cruise are pretty beatable as well. Compared UR Cruise decks, we are better prepared to beat decks like Chalice Aggro, Death and Taxes and Storm since slots that would be wasted on cantrips can be used for answers and Tarmogoyf is typically much better than Young Pyromancer against these kind of decks.

So I certainly agree that getting a Treasure Cruise resolved against us is not good news, but card advantage isn’t everything. I don’t play a ton of MODO but I have been able to 3-1 a bunch daily’s and 4-0 a couple since Treasure Cruise was released, I’m up about 150 tickets from winning with RUG Delver in November and December.

[Grand Superior]

So, uh... Kird Ape.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78736

I don't currently play this deck myself, but I'm interested in seeing what you guys have to say about this. Both Canadian Threshold lists in that top 8 had a full set of Kird Ape.

[Lemnear]

So, uh... Kird Ape.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78736

I don't currently play this deck myself, but I'm interested in seeing what you guys have to say about this. Both Canadian Threshold lists in that top 8 had a full set of Kird Ape.

Does not die to Forked Bolt. A certain edge in the URx mirror

[Lord Seth]

So, uh... Kird Ape.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78736

I don't currently play this deck myself, but I'm interested in seeing what you guys have to say about this. Both Canadian Threshold lists in that top 8 had a full set of Kird Ape.I assume they're playing it so they can run Treasure Cruise without running into the anti-synergy that Nimble Mongoose creates.

[Kamus]

I couldn't believe when I saw Kird Ape ROCKING the top 8 yesterday, this card looks so great in the current meta
- It doesn't die to forked bolt
- It's a little weak against wasteland-decks (so what? the meta lacks of wastelands after treasure cruise was released)
- It can block (and kill) pyromancer, SFM, SCM, Bob without dieing)
- Probably great with the jitte in SB
- It allows TC in this deck (I love the mongooses, but TC is broken, what to say?)

An important thing I notice after TC was released is that all the fair-blue-decks (like delver decks) had to take out some counters to put TC in. TC is incredible against fair decks, but I miss my 3-4 MD spell pierces I played before, specially against fast combos, like revive and S&S
Kird Ape allows you to use 4 TC + all the counter-package in the same deck!
I liked the stifle-less version that made top 1 more, but I'm not 100% sure. 3 spell pierce + 3 forked bolt looks consistent for me. I'd also cut the MD pyroblast for the 4th wasteland, using 18 lands total

The Kird-evil-Ape idea is genious

[apon]

after some months playing elves, i have been playing rug for the last month.
I started with the mangoose version, i think mangoose is the best creature on the deck. But playing mangoose is incompatible with treasure cruise. At the same time it's incompaible with jitte, a very good card in the current meta.

I wanted to try with pyromancer instead of mangoose, but i think i'm going to test kird ape. Added to all your arguments, i rarely put tokens with pyromancer, not playing probe and less direct damage than UR.

Another question is playing taiga instead 3rd tropical island. I read a tournament report some months ago, from a guy who played that taiga. Arguments:
- sometimes you need 2 red mana available in opponent's turn (bolt, pyroblast),
- sometimes you need to protect 1 color. If you have 1 volcanic, 1 trop and fetch for 3rd land, you take the risk of losing 1 color. With taiga you will have always your 3 colors if your opponent wastes one of your lands.


I don't know if you watched the finals video. I did. RUG player seemed to made the same mistake 2 consecutive turns, attaking with ape before land droping w/o forest in play and having a tropical in hand. Any explanation?

[index]

He wanted to save his fetchland for the delver-trigger. Wich was the right play imo.

So, lets test them wild apes!

[apon]

He wanted to save his fetchland for the delver-trigger. Wich was the right play imo.

So, lets test them wild apes!

1st turn he played volcanic instead of tropical for casting delver.
second turn, with volcanic in play and tropical in hand he played a fetch.

i can understand the fetch decision, but not the volcanic instead of tropical the turn before. maybe for casting pyroblast?

i think it's important to put storm player under 12 life to make Ad Nauseam less effective.

[rickster]

Daryl Ayers has been playing that deck for over a month. He played i at the GP.

https://twitter.com/Daryl_Ayers/status/535517426524651520

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Daryl's Team Azerbaijan! Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) :cool:

[Sea R Hill]

This "new" Kird Ape list is basically the TEMPO ZOO list I built for GP Amsterdam 2011.
I was crushing the French legacy metagame with it from GP Amsterdam to the printing of Terminus, joined a few months later by Abrupt Decay. Placed 20th at GP Amsterdam, won the Golden BOM 2012 and top8ed multiple 100+ players tournaments with TZ.

He mainly replaced the 3 Grim Lavamancer and the Mirri's Guile with 4 Treasure Cruise, which is the obvious swap.
What is funny is that I updated the list with the release of Khans, and we pretty much have the same stock list, except I still play only 2 Wastelands, and I play 2 Chain Lightning instead of the third Forked Bolt and the 4th Ponder.

Here are a few links:

GP Amsterdam 2011: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpams11/top32decks

BOM 2012: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-bazaaro-world/

The Tempo Zoo thread on Legacy-France, for those of you who can read French: http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=7833&st=0


I stopped playing the list because it is very weak to Terminus and Abrupt Decay.
There have never been as few Abrupt Decays as now, but it is still very vulnerable to Miracle and its Terminus, even with Treasure Cruise.

[H]

Been waiting about 10 years for a good reason to break these bad boys out:

http://i.imgur.com/mRgcYvW.jpg

Found it! I will probably brew up a little something similar, possibly with a bit more burn or a Vendilion Clique in the main.

[Sea R Hill]

I will probably brew up a little something similar, possibly with a bit more burn or a Vendilion Clique in the main.

I tried Clique and some other 3cc spells (Rushing River and TNN), but 3cc spells are just too expensive for this deck.
Top of the curve should not be higher than 2.

[sawatarix]

I don't want to break the Hype that's going on here and it's sweet that an oldschool hero came back to business, but honestly i have to say that kird ape is a really poor creature compared to any other one in the format.
I mean, it still dies to bolt and every other removal spell except forked bolt which is a 1-2 off in most decks.
Secondly, it is not the fastest clock we have seen even if there is no defense: 2 points of damage, how cute.
'Index' and i have tested the card and everytime kird ape entered the battlefield there was a kind of laughter on both sides because of it's cuteness.


Instead i would either splash a 4th colour for deathrite shaman which is a more powerful 1 drop or even a Scythe Tiger and a higher landcount although I'm not sure about it.

[Manipulato]

I don't want to break the Hype that's going on here and it's sweet that an oldschool hero came back to business, but honestly i have to say that kird ape is a really poor creature compared to any other one in the format.
I mean, it still dies to bolt and every other removal spell except forked bolt which is a 1-2 off in most decks.
Secondly, it is not the fastest clock we have seen even if there is no defense: 2 points of damage, how cute.
'Index' and i have tested the card and everytime kird ape entered the battlefield there was a kind of laughter on both sides because of it's cuteness.


Instead i would either splash a 4th colour for deathrite shaman which is a more powerful 1 drop or even a Scythe Tiger and a higher landcount although I'm not sure about it.

Hey Kai,
same opinion on the ape discussion! I thougt about the tiger too for a second but the 2 toughness are just super bad because every YP, Bob, SCM or whatever will kill it in combat. And that for the price of sacing a land....mhhh, no :laugh:

I think YP would be a better option even if he costs 2 mana.
Or maybe 4 Mongoose + 2-3 Thought Scour + 2 TC?

Greetings

[Sea R Hill]

I had that a lot too. When I cast Kird Ape, opponents tended to smile... at first.
Then after a few spells that got Dazed or Pierced they realised that the gorilla was eating their life away, but after 6-8 damage it is already too late. 6 to 8 damage for one red mana is a pretty good deal, and with the reach this deck have it makes things easy.

If you compare the ape with other creatures it is not that ridiculous as well. On 4 attacks, it deals 8 damage, where a Delver that do not flip twice deals the same number of damage. Even if Delver just miss a flip once, it is not that big a difference.
When you have the choice between a turn one Delver or Ape, it is almost every time correct to play the Ape first if you have access to a second land to pump it. Because the Delver will blindflip 50% of the time, where the Ape will deal 2 damage 100% of the time. So on average the Ape deal the same number of damage as a Delver on its first attack on turn 2, and has the advantage of limiting variance, which is all these cantrip decks are about anyway.
But Delver of secrets is one if not the best creature in Legacy. If you compare the Ape with other one-drops, it really shines.
It is faster the Mongoose, which takes forever to grow at a non-laughable size. Against combo the Goose takes at least 4-5 turns to grow, whereas the Ape reach full size on its first attack. Thats is 5 more damage after 5 attacks, double as the damage dealt by Mongoose. It is sooo important against combo, and is actually the difference between losing and winning.
Even Monastery Swiftspear is not that better than the Ape. Sure it regularly attacks for three, and when you are "going off" it can reach the size of a Tarmogoyf, but you attack a lot of times for 1 as well. In the end Swiftspear deals more damage than the Ape, but not that many more. And the Ape is good on itself, it does not require a deck full of Probes, which lets you play Spell Pierce and totally change your combo MU.

The extra toughness of the Ape is very relevant as well. There are no early blockers that can block it, kill it and survive. Kird Ape eats alive Thalia, Pyromancer, DRS, Bob, SFM, ...

Another feature of this card that is relevant is that it is not vulnerable to graveyard hate. RIP does nothing against the gorilla.


In this deck DRS is too slow, and Scythe Tiger is a joke. It dies to too many blockers with its 2 toughness, and sacrificing a land is horrendous. As is playing Mongoose and Treasure Cruise in the same deck.

[BKclassic]

I've gotten to test Kird Ape in two daily's so far. The first one I ran Daryl Ayer's actual list and went 1-2 drop, the second I played an 18 land version (-1 forked bolt, +1 Wooded Foothills) to a 4-0 finish.
-This deck is basically just a better version of UR Delver. You get to run a reasoable amount Spell Pierces MD to help against combo decks and hate cards (Chalice of the Void, Choke), you stomp the UR Delver match up with higher toughness dudes and Rough/Tumble in the Sb, and we actually play Wasteland.
-If you are looking to play a Temur Treasure Cruise deck, Kird Ape is definitely the one drop that gets you there. We could run Monastary Swiftspear, but it doesn't encourage splashing green and Tarmogoyf, it encourages more cantrips and Young Pyromancer.
-Against control decks, running Kird Ape and Treasure Cruise instead of Nimble Mongoose is mostly a wash. Kird Ape can be answered easily but you get to keep drawing more cards where Nimble Mongoose is a much better durable threat.
-The deck is pretty solid although I do reccomend 18 lands.
-Nimble Mongoose is still a fantastic card that generates all kinds virtual card advantage. Traditional Canadian Threshold would wreck this new fangled Temur build, so I still wouldn't write Nimble Mongoose out of the metagame yet.

[sawatarix]

@Sea R Hill: Thx man for your arguments pro Ape. I completely understand what are you talking about and it also makes sense but you only focused on kird ape's velocity, not on its resilience.
In my opinion there are 2 ways to go: Either we build a Tempo Zoo Deck with 14+ creatures backed upt with free countermagic, cantrips and 7+ removal spells to execute a really fast beatdown OR we focus more on a tempoCONTROL Deck with more resilient threads + a lot more countermagic like spell snare/pierce/stifle to knock our opponent down while we control his mana.
Kird ape could be good in the first approach whereas it sucks in the second

[Higgs]

Btw for anyone who's been following Legacy for about 2 years or more, Kird Ape shouldn't be a revelation in Canadian:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/bazaar-of-moxen-2012-legacy-decklists-reports-and-video-roundup/ (Ctrl+F Kird Ape)

I believe he came first.

[sawatarix]

AS i said before, the Rug list in your link featuring Kird Ape is a Tempo Zoo Deck with a high creature+ removal density.

[poxy14]

i ran blue zoo last year before tcruise which featured 3apes/2grim/2tnn, and had success with it..
if im going to test it again with cruises i might just cut the grims and instead put in tnns since im missing goose..
been a fan of forked bolt, for me the 2nd greatest burn spell after bolt...but if im running goyfs, i always like tarfires.

i agree too with BKclassic, with us running 3 colors, 18 will be the correct number...all our lands (except wastes) are blue, so tnn shldnt be a prob.
vs wasteland.dec we have stifles and of course treasure cruises too for reload.

[Sea R Hill]

AS i said before, the Rug list in your link featuring Kird Ape is a Tempo Zoo Deck with a high creature+ removal density.

In fact my TZ list from 2011 runs the same 12 creatures as my post TC list, plus 3 Grim Lavamancer.
Grim Lavamancer is a terrific creature that was very good in the 2011-2012 metagame, because there were a lot of Maverick and Elves decks back then.
Now that these decks have fallen out of hype, and that you can draw 3 for one blue, it makes sense to replace them with Treasure Cruise.
What is important here is that Creature #13 to #15 were not creatures that you were attacking with, but creatures that soft-locked some decks like Elves and gave you reach against all the other decks. It was just weak against combo.
Now the reach can be obtained through card advantage with TC.
I also upped the number of Ponder I play from 1 to 3, so you can find your creatures more easily and fill your graveyard for TC.

So today's lists are not that different from before, they just have access to an incredible draw engine that helps you close the games once you run out of gas.

For reference here is my current list, which I think is better than the one that won the last SCG, mainly because I play 18 lands including 16 colored ones instead of 17 lands including only 14 colored ones for a better stability, and because I don't have a clunky sideboard:

MD :
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Wasteland


4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kird Ape



SB :
3 Pyroblast
3 Envelop
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough / Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod’s Crypt

[keys]

Kird Ape might not be the most sophisticated guest at the dinner table, but he's the only one-drop besides Delver that allows you to play Rough / Tumble and Treasure Cruise in the same deck and still apply a decent clock. Ok, except for maybe Rogue Elephant...

My hat's off to Ayers... it's a deceptively simple change that allows the deck to play a lot more like the old RUG Delver lists that dropped Stifle in favour of additional burn/Spell Pierce. Cruise just gives it so much more gas in the late game.

[Asthereal]

Kird Ape might not be the most sophisticated guest at the dinner table, but he's the only one-drop besides Delver that allows you to play Rough / Tumble and Treasure Cruise in the same deck and still apply a decent clock. Ok, except for maybe Rogue Elephant...
In theory one could splash white to gain access to Wild Nacatl.
In the current meta, with not that many Wastelands, this might be an option.
White also has some nice sideboard options and a great removal spell to offer.

[Sea R Hill]

My first version of Tempo Zoo played Wild Nacatl.
I won the first tournament I played with this list, but as soon as Delver was released I switched to Delvers, and never looked back.
The manabase is much better when you don't have to play lands that act like basic lands but that can still get wastelanded. (All the white duals which were here just to pump Nacatl did not help you cast any white spell, because you don't play any).
So even if there are less Wastelands in today's meta (which I am unsure aynway), not splashing white still allows you to have a more stable manabase, besides having a more robust one.




My hat's off to Terroy...

Fixed. And thank you. ;)

[Asthereal]

My first version of Tempo Zoo played Wild Nacatl.
I won the first tournament I played with this list, but as soon as Delver was released I switched to Delvers, and never looked back.
I'm not saying play Nacatl over Delver. I am saying it's worth looking into playing both, and no Kird Ape.

The lands would be Tropical and Plateau, allowing you to play the two important reactive colours (blue and red) from two lands. You could decide to play white cards, main or side, but you don't necessarily have to. It's an option. I think it could work.

[keys]

Nacatl is too fragile. The deck should be able to survive on 2 lands.

[sawatarix]

+1 on that,no nacatl please.
nacatl is just a touch better than kird ape,the white splash isn't worth it

[Contract Killer]

So I've been doing some testing with Kird Ape builds myself and this is the best I could come up with:

Creatures: 12
4 delver of secrets
4 kird ape
4 tarmogoyf

Instants: 22
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
4 lightning bolt
1 spell pierce
1 pyroblast

Sorceries: 9
4 ponder
4 treasure cruise
1 forked bolt

Lands: 17
4 Flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 wasteland
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island

Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast
1 vendilion clique
1 spell pierce
1 forked bolt
2 rough and tumble
1 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge
1 sulfuric vortex
1 sylvan library

Despite Kird Ape making cruise viable I still feel like RUG delver's power relies in it's synergy with wasteland/stifle/daze. The list Daryl won with just seemed to soft to miracles without goose and stifle. I mean I can understand him just hoping to dodge it, but the meta I play in it's a fairly common deck to see. On top of that I did put sulfuric vortex, sylvan library and krosan grip in the board to help shore up the miracles match up post board.
I am thinking about shaving 1 cruise for another pierce. What do you guys think? In testing it just seems like 4 cruises is too much. It almost always seems like a cruise is clogging up opening hands or early draws. In UR delver 4 cruise makes sense, but 3 seems a bit better for us.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Monkey Island aka Team Azerbaijan. Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) or watch the VODs later this week on itsJulian.com (http://itsJulian.com)

[edahl]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Monkey Island aka Team Azerbaijan. Join us over at twitch.tv/itsJulian (http://twitch.tv/itsJulian) or watch the VODs later this week on itsJulian.com (http://itsJulian.com)

Nice! What list you using?

Really not that big an issue but I would prefer no music on the VODs, or something more neutral like a piano

[index]

Welcome back nimble mongoose! <3

[edahl]

Welcome back nimble mongoose! <3

<3 <3 I'm going home to unsleeve Taiga and Kird Ape.

[KobeBryan]

Welcome back

[Tammit67]

Welcome back nimble mongoose! <3

For some of us, it never left.

I might still want spell snares

[ShiftyKapree]

Back to playing this from TES, its good to see mongoose back and us going to be a tier 1 deck again.

[Grizzly_Bear]

So. Reality Shift, anyone?

[Islandswamp]

I'm new to Legacy, I just bought in on MTGO. Built U/R Delver, and started on daryl ayers delver deck.

Now that treasure cruise has been banned, I decided to buy nimble mongoose and make the older version of this deck.

Do you guys think that Nimble Mongoose is the way to go? Would you ever consider trying the kird ape version with dig through time instead of treasure cruise?

I've been playing and trying to learn the Nimble Mongoose list lately, so far I've done ok, I faced a couple decks that I wasn't familiar with and ended up losing.

[Islandswamp]

This is what my deck looks like now:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Forked Bolt
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland

2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hydroblast
1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
1 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle

Keep in mind, I will replace the ghost quarter as soon as I can afford to do so. Should be soon (I hope, because rarely is GQ any good).

Any suggestions or comments are welcome. I'm still learning the format. I have to say, Legacy is the most fun I've ever had playing competitive magic.

[edahl]

I finally own this deck but I don't get the opportunity to play often, so: are there anyone that routinely stream or post videos of playing this (and other, particularly BUG) Delver variants?

[Contract Killer]

I'm new to Legacy, I just bought in on MTGO. Built U/R Delver, and started on daryl ayers delver deck.

Now that treasure cruise has been banned, I decided to buy nimble mongoose and make the older version of this deck.

Do you guys think that Nimble Mongoose is the way to go? Would you ever consider trying the kird ape version with dig through time instead of treasure cruise?

I've been playing and trying to learn the Nimble Mongoose list lately, so far I've done ok, I faced a couple decks that I wasn't familiar with and ended up losing.

Hands down nimble mongoose is better than kird ape. The only reason why kird ape was even for a second slightly better was because it didn't rely on the graveyard and treasure cruise was that good. The other thing stock lists running goose and stifle are so much better vs miracles. Having a 3/3 beatstick they have to find terminus/entreat/singleton clique to deal with makes it really hard for them. On top of that we have stifle for terminus/entreat which forces them to burn a brainstorm (unless they have jace in play but we shouldn't let that happen) to put the miracle card back on top. I will admit Kird Ape is better against combo, but goose is better against the other 2/3 of the meta because of it's shroud.
As for going back to it switching dig with cruise I wouldn't, but that's just because I like the main list. They're similar cards dig and cruise and I would almost say dig is better since you see 7 and 1 card with cruise was probably a land/irrelevant card anyways. It's worth a shot plus it's an instant which is much better for us.
If you're having difficulties with stifle don't let it make you make bad plays. What I mean by that is don't hold up stifle turn 1 over playing out delver because you want to maybe hit a fetch. Playing out a wasteland without a threat in play is bad the same I would say is true for stifle most of the time.

[Contract Killer]

I finally own this deck but I don't get the opportunity to play often, so: are there anyone that routinely stream or post videos of playing this (and other, particularly BUG) Delver variants?

http://www.channelfireball.com/author/jacob-wilson/

I would start by watching all of Jacob's rug delver videos. Not sure if everyone else agrees with this, but I would say Jacob is the best RUG Delver pilot. There's also plenty of videos of him playing in various scg top 8s (I think he won 3 back to back with rug) and despite the videos being old most of the match ups haven't changed that much.

[edahl]

http://www.channelfireball.com/author/jacob-wilson/

I would start by watching all of Jacob's rug delver videos. Not sure if everyone else agrees with this, but I would say Jacob is the best RUG Delver pilot. There's also plenty of videos of him playing in various scg top 8s (I think he won 3 back to back with rug) and despite the videos being old most of the match ups haven't changed that much.

Thank you! <3

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I finally own this deck but I don't get the opportunity to play often, so: are there anyone that routinely stream or post videos of playing this (and other, particularly BUG) Delver variants?
I finally don't own the deck anymore, but I agree with Contract Killer: watch those videos! :smile:

[edahl]

Since I went through the (very slight) hassle of finding them all anyway, here they are:
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-2/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-3/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-3-2/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-5/

The opening of this game against miracles is very interesting. I'd force top in a heartbeat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKe_9liCT8o&list=PL04lbfeNAaS_XrGOMSu_iei__GKR8KzLx&index=4

Videos of Wilson's tournament play
http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=jacob+wilson&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

[Contract Killer]

Since I went through the (very slight) hassle of finding them all anyway, here they are:
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-2/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-3/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-3-2/
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-jacob-wilson-legacy-rug-delver-5/

The opening of this game against miracles is very interesting. I'd force top in a heartbeat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKe_9liCT8o&list=PL04lbfeNAaS_XrGOMSu_iei__GKR8KzLx&index=4

Top is an enabler, but it doesn't actually effect us if that makes sense. It's only card selection and not actual card advantage. Jacob suggests that top has them spending more mana on their turn which is good for us which I think most people agree with. If the opponent mulligans and leads top off of either a dual or a plains I would probably force it because we could either waste them or they might not have good mana to begin with.
There are merits for either side of the argument, but I think the general consensus is that we should let top resolve most of the time. The issue is that the game against miracles will go long and they have a lot of answers for our threats. If we force their opening top and can't protect our threat from their swords to plowshares, or deal with their counterbalance (which still has high blind flip percentages at 1cmc) then we lose. RUG delver is all about only countering the stuff that you have to. Top isn't something we have to counter, but their terminus they play on turn 4 after goose gets online we do.
A few things to note about playing against miracles when they have top out our wastelands can be really good. What I mean by this is if they flip top and have a fetch up waste it in response. They won't crack because the top card is probably terminus or entreat and it helps make our soft permission better while still saving stifles for miracle triggers. Another thing to be aware of is that if a miracles player reveals terminus and passes priority for stifle check let's say turn 3 with the following boardstate:
island
island
fetch
top
They have to maintain priority and fetch with the trigger on the stack in the above situation. If the miracles player passes priority we can pass back and they can't fetch to pay because after the trigger resolves they have to pay for it or not cast it. I wouldn't say this situation comes up often, but it's good to know since miracles is a match up that has a lot of small interactions we need to look for and respond too.
Another key interaction that some miracle players don't know is flusterstorm by passes counterbalance lock, or at least the copies do since they're "placed on the stack" and not "played". This can lead to huge blow outs if the miracles player goes for entreat thinking they're safe with force in hand and leaving a mana up for daze. So in that situation if storm is just at 1 for entreat meaning we need to play at least 1 more spell so two copies get through. They could pay for 1 copy with the open mana and then force the other though so if you could do something like brainstorm, bolt (countered by counterbalance :/ ) followed by flusterstorm there's really not much they could do about 3 copies on the stack targeting the entreat except flusterstorm back, but then there wasn't anything we could do to begin with.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Brilliant post!

[edahl]

Great post Contract Killer!

Playing a tier deck sure feels good. I'll be sure to get ahold of a Flusterstorm (or two) for my SB.

@Bed Decks Palyer: How come you got rid of this deck?

[Contract Killer]

Quick question what do you guys think of this list:
54 stock with 2/2/2 split of forked bolt, spell snare, spell pierce
Sideboard:
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 envelop
2 grafdigger's cage
2 rough and tumble
2 submerge
1 vendilion clique
1 sylvan library
1 ancient grudge

Normally I run 1 more artifact/enchantment hate spell + 1 generic pithing needle or 3rd pyroblast in the 2 envelop slot. What I've found after more testing is that I really only want the 3rd pyroblast against miracles which is already a good match up (at least 55/45 in our favor). The other revelry again mainly for miracles to help beat resolved counterbalances. I think making the concession of having the miracles match rely more on the stack vs the ability to beat a resolved counterbalance/RIP is fine. I'm just not sure if 1 ancient grudge is enough for artifact hate decks. I mean I'm running 8 answers maindeck to stoneforge (4 bolt, 2 forked, 2 snare) plus 4 stifles for batterskull. The other thing I just haven't had a lot of experience with is envelop, but it seems solid against miracles, storm, show and tell and elves.
After doing a lot of testing against storm recently against a really good pilot I actually think the match up while 50/50 isn't that good. Despite us having stifle the opponent was always able to disrupt my hand enough that by the time he went off he was able to play around everything. Which I think is partially because I never seemed to have that good of pressure against him since goose is horrible against storm and goyf I never felt like I could tap out for and delver I never had on turn 1 that often. Envelop seems to help a lot post board has anyone else tested it out? I mean the main issue I had was he would duress, therapy my hand away and then went off knowing I just had something like pierce/daze/stifle that he could play around or get rid of with another therapy after past in flames resolved. It just seems like for this match up you need a turn 1 delver for it to be anywhere in your favor or just a bad storm pilot who's too trigger happy which never seems to be in my cards.

[edahl]

Quick question what do you guys think of this list:
54 stock with 2/2/2 split of forked bolt, spell snare, spell pierce
Sideboard:
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 envelop
2 grafdigger's cage
2 rough and tumble
2 submerge
1 vendilion clique
1 sylvan library
1 ancient grudge

Normally I run 1 more artifact/enchantment hate spell + 1 generic pithing needle or 3rd pyroblast in the 2 envelop slot. What I've found after more testing is that I really only want the 3rd pyroblast against miracles which is already a good match up (at least 55/45 in our favor). The other revelry again mainly for miracles to help beat resolved counterbalances. I think making the concession of having the miracles match rely more on the stack vs the ability to beat a resolved counterbalance/RIP is fine. I'm just not sure if 1 ancient grudge is enough for artifact hate decks. I mean I'm running 8 answers maindeck to stoneforge (4 bolt, 2 forked, 2 snare) plus 4 stifles for batterskull. The other thing I just haven't had a lot of experience with is envelop, but it seems solid against miracles, storm, show and tell and elves.
After doing a lot of testing against storm recently against a really good pilot I actually think the match up while 50/50 isn't that good. Despite us having stifle the opponent was always able to disrupt my hand enough that by the time he went off he was able to play around everything. Which I think is partially because I never seemed to have that good of pressure against him since goose is horrible against storm and goyf I never felt like I could tap out for and delver I never had on turn 1 that often. Envelop seems to help a lot post board has anyone else tested it out? I mean the main issue I had was he would duress, therapy my hand away and then went off knowing I just had something like pierce/daze/stifle that he could play around or get rid of with another therapy after past in flames resolved. It just seems like for this match up you need a turn 1 delver for it to be anywhere in your favor or just a bad storm pilot who's too trigger happy which never seems to be in my cards.

That SB looks like what I'd play aside from Envelop. My meta has a lot of Vial and Stoneblade, and a resolved Batterskull just sounds horrible. Personally I'd rather have more answers to artifacts and enchantments, but maybe that's just a crutch while I learn the deck (my experience with RUG is a Punishing Fire+Young Pyromancer deck with a little less disruption and no Wasteland or Stifle). The match-ups you mention sound like match-ups we feel good about anyway. When it comes to tapping out for Tarmogoyf, that sounds like the kind of situation where you sometimes have to ... just hope they don't have it. My experience with this deck though, is pretty much none.

[Alix444]

For starters the chance of someone having a wasteland in their first 8 cards is only 36%. Probability in magic is based off of hypergeometrics. Here's a brief crash course on it:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/chrismascioli-100512-of-math-and-magic-part-1-the-hypergeometric-distribution/
Now if you don't want to bother understanding all of the math just look at the variables and you can plug them into a calculator:
http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx

Let's look at the chance for seeing a second land off of ponder.
Population size (deck): 52 assuming we fetch (Whether we fetch or not isn't even going to change the margin by 0.01%)
sample size (cards drawn): in this case it's 3 because of ponder
number of successes in population (how many lands in the deck): 12 again based off of us fetching
successes in sample (number of lands we want in the 3 cards): 1
Average percentage of drawing a second land off of ponder turn 1 = 42%

That data essentially says roughly 3/5 games that you try a turn 1 ponder for a second land it will not work. The odds are against us if only by 8%. On the other hand our opponent will only have wasteland roughly 1/3 games on turn 1. So overall there's a 58% we brick on pond turn 1 or we can look at the bright side that there's only a 36% chance our opponent will have wasteland turn 1. I mean I'll gamble my opponent having wasteland turn 1 over trying to ponder out a second land any day with those odds.

Essentially there's a chance we concede 1/3 games if the opponent plays wasteland turn 1. So if we take the ponder route we do nothing turn 1, and still won't have a second land turn 2 3/5 games. There's also roughly 1/3 games that this plan will backfire on our opponent because we will have 2 lands in hand. The odds are in our favor in numerous ways to not ponder turn 1 and to instead play out delver.

I'm new to this forum, this format and this deck. I somehow feel incredibly at home.

Hey guys fellow RUG player here, I have been slowly trading for this deck and I'm only a volcanic away! My play testing is limited, I have watched everything I can find and am in the process and reading this entire thread!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

@Bed Decks Palyer: How come you got rid of this deck?
I never played it since last summer. In fact I played no sanctioned tournament since then, as Legacy turned to boring shit. Realizing I don't want things I have no need for, I sold most of my cards including the core of Can Thresh.
But I still got it in my MWS folder if I want to Stifle some fetches and tap the Goyfs... :smile:



Quick question what do you guys think of this list:
54 stock with 2/2/2 split of forked bolt, spell snare, spell pierce
Sideboard:
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 envelop
2 grafdigger's cage
2 rough and tumble
2 submerge
1 vendilion clique
1 sylvan library
1 ancient grudge

Normally I run 1 more artifact/enchantment hate spell + 1 generic pithing needle or 3rd pyroblast in the 2 envelop slot. What I've found after more testing is that I really only want the 3rd pyroblast against miracles which is already a good match up (at least 55/45 in our favor). The other revelry again mainly for miracles to help beat resolved counterbalances. I think making the concession of having the miracles match rely more on the stack vs the ability to beat a resolved counterbalance/RIP is fine. I'm just not sure if 1 ancient grudge is enough for artifact hate decks. I mean I'm running 8 answers maindeck to stoneforge (4 bolt, 2 forked, 2 snare) plus 4 stifles for batterskull. The other thing I just haven't had a lot of experience with is envelop, but it seems solid against miracles, storm, show and tell and elves.
After doing a lot of testing against storm recently against a really good pilot I actually think the match up while 50/50 isn't that good. Despite us having stifle the opponent was always able to disrupt my hand enough that by the time he went off he was able to play around everything. Which I think is partially because I never seemed to have that good of pressure against him since goose is horrible against storm and goyf I never felt like I could tap out for and delver I never had on turn 1 that often. Envelop seems to help a lot post board has anyone else tested it out? I mean the main issue I had was he would duress, therapy my hand away and then went off knowing I just had something like pierce/daze/stifle that he could play around or get rid of with another therapy after past in flames resolved. It just seems like for this match up you need a turn 1 delver for it to be anywhere in your favor or just a bad storm pilot who's too trigger happy which never seems to be in my cards.
IDK. The whole Storm matchup is pretty random, sometimes you draw bad hands and lose, other times youflip Delver and then cantrip into permission and the opponent is never in play.
I found Grafdiggers Cage really helpful, as it stops one of their main engines. Although they can Decay it, they still need to draw into it, moreover they need to find slots for it.
I cut some number of creatures, either mix of Goyfs and Mongooses, or if I'm in a mood for hard labour, I tinker with correct numbers depending on play/draw. Then the two FBs get cut, of course, and maybe one LB if that's necessary, as I don't expect Xantid Swarm, at least not in big numbers. This leaves you with some 6 slots at least, maybe one more (say you cut all goyfs otd) and thus you may bring 2 Cage, 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm which should be enough:

3 Bolts for random XS and/or faster clock
4 FoWs
2 Snares (IT, CRit, maybe BW)
6 conditional counters in Daze and Spell Pierce
4 Stifles (I prefer to go after their fetches to limit their development, but late game save them for storm)
2 Flusterstorms
3 Blasts to hit the cantrips and once again slow the opponents development
8-9 critters to have some clock

Obviously Vendilion Clique really helps as it's both creature and permission. I play one, as it's also good against Miracles.
In your sb I dislike Envelop, as I much rather play answers against the least prevalent prison deck, DnT. I hate to lose to BSkull, so I play Artifact Mutation and then KGrip to destroy any RiP or CB or w/e:

2 Rough/Tumble (creatures)
3 Pyroblast (we play Legacy)
2 Flusterstorm (it's quite solid against Hymn, Stifle, etc., switch with FoW?)
1 Ancient Grudge (BSkull, MUD, DnT, Vial)
1 Artifact Mutation (BSkull, MUD, DnT)
1 Krosan Grip (RiP, CB, MUD, BSkull)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Storm, Elves, grave decks)
2 Pithing Needle (JTMS, Lili of TV, SDT, EE... the targets are countless)
1 Vendilion Clique (Miracles and combo; it also flies over elves, yet it's pretty slow)

That's my sb for a foreseeable future. I dislike SL as it does nothing the turn it comes to play, gets more powerful as the game turns longer (something we should avoid) and has no p/t.
I dislike Envelop as it's pretty limited and except for Miracles (and to Storm to some extent) I don't find a need for it.

[edahl]

Legacy turned to boring shit. Realizing I don't want things I have no need for, I sold most of my cards including the core of Can Thresh.
But I still got it in my MWS folder if I want to Stifle some fetches and tap the Goyfs... :smile:

Aw, what happened? What's an MWS folder?

Nice points on storm!

BTW, is TNN an ok budget option for Clique in the sideboard?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Aw, what happened? What's an MWS folder?

Nice points on storm!

BTW, is TNN an ok budget option for Clique in the sideboard?

Well, at least Treasure Cruise happened. And an overall boredom of overall state o format. MWS stands for Magic Workstation, a freeware for internet card games.
I played storm, I played lots against storm, and i played lots against Sloshthedark, storm specialist. I might be wrong, of course, but I think that this approach is reasonable.
I wouldn't play TNN. You need to tap out and it provides no utility against combo. It's good as Mongoose no.5, but the cost is too prohibitive, imho.

[Contract Killer]

I never played it since last summer. In fact I played no sanctioned tournament since then, as Legacy turned to boring shit. Realizing I don't want things I have no need for, I sold most of my cards including the core of Can Thresh.
But I still got it in my MWS folder if I want to Stifle some fetches and tap the Goyfs... :smile:



IDK. The whole Storm matchup is pretty random, sometimes you draw bad hands and lose, other times youflip Delver and then cantrip into permission and the opponent is never in play.
I found Grafdiggers Cage really helpful, as it stops one of their main engines. Although they can Decay it, they still need to draw into it, moreover they need to find slots for it.
I cut some number of creatures, either mix of Goyfs and Mongooses, or if I'm in a mood for hard labour, I tinker with correct numbers depending on play/draw. Then the two FBs get cut, of course, and maybe one LB if that's necessary, as I don't expect Xantid Swarm, at least not in big numbers. This leaves you with some 6 slots at least, maybe one more (say you cut all goyfs otd) and thus you may bring 2 Cage, 3 REB, 2 Flusterstorm which should be enough:

3 Bolts for random XS and/or faster clock
4 FoWs
2 Snares (IT, CRit, maybe BW)
6 conditional counters in Daze and Spell Pierce
4 Stifles (I prefer to go after their fetches to limit their development, but late game save them for storm)
2 Flusterstorms
3 Blasts to hit the cantrips and once again slow the opponents development
8-9 critters to have some clock

Obviously Vendilion Clique really helps as it's both creature and permission. I play one, as it's also good against Miracles.
In your sb I dislike Envelop, as I much rather play answers against the least prevalent prison deck, DnT. I hate to lose to BSkull, so I play Artifact Mutation and then KGrip to destroy any RiP or CB or w/e:

2 Rough/Tumble (creatures)
3 Pyroblast (we play Legacy)
2 Flusterstorm (it's quite solid against Hymn, Stifle, etc., switch with FoW?)
1 Ancient Grudge (BSkull, MUD, DnT, Vial)
1 Artifact Mutation (BSkull, MUD, DnT)
1 Krosan Grip (RiP, CB, MUD, BSkull)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Storm, Elves, grave decks)
2 Pithing Needle (JTMS, Lili of TV, SDT, EE... the targets are countless)
1 Vendilion Clique (Miracles and combo; it also flies over elves, yet it's pretty slow)

That's my sb for a foreseeable future. I dislike SL as it does nothing the turn it comes to play, gets more powerful as the game turns longer (something we should avoid) and has no p/t.
I dislike Envelop as it's pretty limited and except for Miracles (and to Storm to some extent) I don't find a need for it.

Yeah that makes sense I guess. I'm looking at trying envelop because it seems fairly good against miracles, amazing against storm and pretty good against elves. I think I'll switch my 1 artifact hate slot to a K-grip since I'm just playing 1 artifact hate card. Pithing needle is definitely good it's just a card that I've found hard to measure it's value in anything outside of miracles. Since it provides virtual card advantage and decks like d&t or maverick you can name a number of different things, but they have so much redundancy. I just found my games against storm to be sub par as of late here's my current board plan:
- 2 forked bolt
- 4 bolt
- 2 goyf

+2 cage
+2 envelop
+2 flusterstorm
+1 vendilion clique
+1 pyroblast

Pyroblast does help in hitting their can trips, but it's still kind of weak if you draw it to late. I mean unless you hit one of their early turn 1 or 2 brainstorm/ponder it's one of the worst cards you could draw later in the game. I also like to keep at least 10 threats in, but that's just a personal preference.
Sylvan Library is mainly to help against miracles. It's just so good in that match up. Our life total doesn't matter like at all in that match up and we can get so many good cards to sculpt an unbeatable hand. Maybe I'm overvaluing it for just that one match up.

[edahl]

This is the list I'm planning on playing in a tourney next weekend. Should be fairly stock:

4 Delver, Goose, Goyf, FoW, Stifle, Daze, Wasteland, ...
3 Trop, Volcanic
8 Fetch
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Forked Bolt

SB:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Rough
1 Flusterstorm (or temporary replacement)
1 Vendilion Clique (or temporary replacement)

For the temps I'm thinking maybe Envelop and a Krosan Grip.

[Arksz]

I have an artifact mutation sitting around. Great to see someone try it out. Thought it would be amazing against batterskull!

[philipneri]

Hey Guys. I am a new Legacy player. My LGS just started a weekly 18-proxy Legacy event every Sunday. Last week, we had 8 players, and I got 3rd place winning $20 store credit. Today, we had 8 players again, and I got 1st place winning $40 store credit. I am pretty pumped. I used Slide's list and sideboard guide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27776-Deck-Canadian-Threshold-(aka-RUG-Delver-Tempo-Thresh)&p=853564&highlight=#post853564)

Round 1 - Death and Taxes (2-0)
Game 1 - I burn a Mom and a Thalia. Beat down with Goyf for the win.
Game 2 - I don't draw any sideboard cards. I just play two Delvers and a Goyf and I outrace him.

Round 2 - Storm (2-1)
Game 1 - I beat down with double Goyf and a full grip of counterspells.
Game 2 - He has double Xantid Swarm and locks me out. He wins on Turn 5.
Game 3 - I beat down with a Delver and a Goose. He gets a Xantid Swarm out. I get him down to 3 life. So he goes for it. I Stifle Xantid Swarm's triggered ability and Daze his rituals away. He scoops.

Round 3 - Death and Taxes (2-1)
Game 1 - I mulligan to 5. He gets out Mom, Thalia, SFM, and Batterskull. I play 3 Goyfs but he Plows them all away.
Game 2 - He plays 3 Moms. I play Pithing Needle naming Mom. Delver and Goyf get there.
Game 3 - I probe him. He has SoFaI, SFM, Thalia, RiP, and Flickerwisp. I play Delver. He plays SFM getting Batterskull. I bolt SFM. I get Goyf out. He plays Rest in Peace. He gets Thalia and Sword of Fire and Ice. He kills my Delver. But he is at 6 life. So I pay 1R to Bolt EoT. And then pay 1R during my upkeep to Bolt him again.

I have only been playing Legacy for 2 weeks so far, but I am loving it. I can't wait to get real Dual lands and toss these proxies in the trash.

[Zhanger]

My first time playing RUG delver I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter by a Jund Depths player. That when I learnt that this deck isn't for anyone and that this is hands down one of the most skill intensive, brain aching decks that anyone could pick up and learn to play. This is my first list of RUG delver that I've ever but together. Could I please get some help from this forum on learning how to sideboard properly.

RUG Delver

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Fork Bolt

4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sideboard Tech that can keep up with True-Name Nemisis.

This is my deck so far that I'm working with and it's actually keeping up with all the other decks that beat tempo. The only time I feel it folds is when I can't keep up with a True-Name Nemisis. Am I just playing it wrong when I'm up against Stoneblade/American/Deathblade/Esper/Grixis Control type decks?

I feel as though in my meta Spell Snare isn't that good unfortunately. Everyone seems to run everything except for 2 drops (excluding Tarmogoyf). I like Gitaxian Probe, cause its a can-trip and I have information about what my opponent is playing already.

My meta is a lot of Burn, Death-Taxes, Maverick, Landstill, Grixis (true-name) control, all the stoneblades, miracles.

I've been approximately been playing this deck for about 2 and a half years, so some advice would be much appreciated. :smile:

[cheerios]

@zhanger

Have you tried playing TNN in the sideboard? We are usually ahead in the early turns against the TNN decks and just gas out as TNN hits the floor. I think playing TNN against them might be useful.

[Alix444]

Pyroblast is a great SB card that will help out in a lot of other matches.

If you wanted to get crazy you could run one underground sea and use golgari charm. I don't think it is a good solution though.

Sometimes 3 mana can be a lot against us.

[Zhanger]

@zhanger

Have you tried playing TNN in the sideboard? We are usually ahead in the early turns against the TNN decks and just gas out as TNN hits the floor. I think playing TNN against them might be useful.

I don't want to end up using the problem as an answer to the problem. I've told my self that I'd never play it unless it was absolutely necessary.

My friend has a card that he isn't willing to divulge until i get it. He says it's from Legends and it's more then able to keep up or even take over with a true-name on the field.
I've tried keeping up with my own TNN and it doesn't work out, most of the time they end up finding someway of dealing with it.

[Contract Killer]

My first time playing RUG delver I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter by a Jund Depths player. That when I learnt that this deck isn't for anyone and that this is hands down one of the most skill intensive, brain aching decks that anyone could pick up and learn to play. This is my first list of RUG delver that I've ever but together. Could I please get some help from this forum on learning how to sideboard properly.

RUG Delver

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Fork Bolt

4 Wasteland
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sideboard Tech that can keep up with True-Name Nemisis.

This is my deck so far that I'm working with and it's actually keeping up with all the other decks that beat tempo. The only time I feel it folds is when I can't keep up with a True-Name Nemisis. Am I just playing it wrong when I'm up against Stoneblade/American/Deathblade/Esper/Grixis Control type decks?

I feel as though in my meta Spell Snare isn't that good unfortunately. Everyone seems to run everything except for 2 drops (excluding Tarmogoyf). I like Gitaxian Probe, cause its a can-trip and I have information about what my opponent is playing already.

My meta is a lot of Burn, Death-Taxes, Maverick, Landstill, Grixis (true-name) control, all the stoneblades, miracles.

I've been approximately been playing this deck for about 2 and a half years, so some advice would be much appreciated. :smile:

There's no good answer for TNN that we have in our tool set unfortunately. That sideboard seems fine a bit more singleton than I would like, but maybe that's just me. It's also really light on combo hate, but I guess that's just not a problem for you. For that meta if Maverick and D&T are prevalent then it might be worth it to run 1 sulfur elemental (he's also not half bad against Miracles as an EOT threat and easier to get through counterbalance lock if that happens).
Null rod I'm not a huge fan of. It stops top, but needle already does that and is much more flexible. It doesn't do anything against batterskull which is our main problem. Any other equipment SoFI, Jitte, etc are too slow to play against us. When they equip we can just bolt the creature in response. If they're using jitte half the time we can stifle the counter trigger and it's irrelevant. The only thing null rod does is it really hoses storm since they can't use half of their fast mana and stops the hellbent enabler that is LED. Since there isn't a lot of storm in your meta though I would cut it.

For D&T accept it's a bad match up and there's only so much you can do. With that being said this would probably be the best board plan
OTP:
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 force
+ 2 rough
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 sulfur elemental
OTD
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 daze

Like this is just a bad match up they have Mom and thalia and their mana denial plan is better than ours. On top of that half of their threats are must answer on the spot or huge roadblocks for us (flickerwisp, serra angel, Mirran crusader, Brimaz). They also have the stoneforge package which we have to deal with. There's just too many threats for us to keep on top of while they're wastelanding/porting us.

Maverick isn't that bad of a match up. It's slightly in their favor but not by much. So long as we kill drs, deal with stoneforge and keep knight of the board we're fine.
OTP
- 3 force
- 2 pierce this is just really bad here. It really doesn't do much and it might be better than force otp but definitely out otd.
- 2 probe
+ 2 submerge
+ 2 rough
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 sulfur elemental
OTD
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 daze
- 2 force



Landstill is a weird match up and hard to board against. They're probably in the BUG shell with drs, loam, factory, pernicious deed, etc. For sideboard against them we really don't have much just because of the angle they attack from. Vendilion clique is good to snag loams out during draw steps. Pyroblast is pretty good since it hits standstill, tar pit, jtms, bs etc. If you have a loam in the board it's pretty good as well.

Grixis builds are just like any other tempo mirror it's all about who doesn't play as badly as the other. Tempo mirrors are by far the hardest part of playing RUG and just take a lot of practice. For boarding you'll want to shave all forces on the play since we don't need them and I like to keep 2 in on the draw since there's a lot of stuff we need to answer. If they're threat combination is something like delver, young pyro and tnn then you will definitely want rough and pyroblasts. I usually do something like this in tempo mirrors:
OTP:
- 4 force
+ 2 submerge (if they run goyf/tombstalker)
+ 1 pyroblast ( This varies depending on threats. If they're bug and I just see delver, drs, goyf then just 1, but if they have TNN board in 2 - 3)
+ 1 - 2 flusterstorm This just helps win counter wars and tempo mirrors are usually mana tight
+ 2 rough if they have young pyromancer
OTD just change what comes out:
- 2 force
- 2 pierce
*In tempo mirrors always keep probe in. Normally unless it's combo you don't need it post board because it just helps you feel out game 1. Tempo mirrors though the information is very helpful.

Esper blade, deathblade and UWR blade will have similar boarding strategies and how we should play the game. Stifle fetches if possible because it really helps our soft permission and keeping the game where we want it. If they play stonforge mystic there's a few routes to deal with it. The best way is snare or daze obviously. Half the time they will just go get batterskull anyways which is great for us since all we have to do is stifle the germ trigger. It's very time consuming for them to bounce it back followed by replaying it a turn later and so long as we have pressure we can win the race. The other option is just kill stoneforge. All together between bolts/counters/stifle we have like what 10 - 18 answers between counters and removal. Boarding you will want to do something like this:
OTP:
- 4 force
- 2 gitaxian probe
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 vendilion clique
+ 1 - 3 pyroblasts depending on if they're running TNN or not
+ 2 roughs if they're running young pyromancer in UWR or 1 against deathblade OTP isn't horrible since they have drs and stoneforge
OTD:
- 2 force
- 2 probe
- 2 daze
Against Deathblade OTD don't put rough in. Tapping out turn 2 while might net a 2 for 1 leads to blow outs turn 3 if they drop lili/TNN.
Stifle you could shave here, but I think it has too much value in these matchups as time walks against stoneforge or nullifying Liliana's edict effect.

Miracles is a really swingy 50/50 match up that can go either way. As for boarding do something like this:
OTP
- 2 gitaxian probe
- 2 forked bolt
- 2 bolt
+ 1 vendilion clique
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 pithing needle
+ 1 null rod
+ all pyroblasts you have
+ 1 - 2 flusterstorm This card is up for debate in this match up. Personally I really like it because it helps when fighting over important spells like entreat, jace, terminus, etc. It also by passes counterbalance lock at least the copies do which is niche, but nice to have up your sleeve incase you opponent punts tapping out for entreat.
OTD
- 2 forked bolt
- 2 gitaxian probe
- 4 daze this card is just outright bad on the draw against miracles. Even on the play if we draw it late game it's disgustingly bad which the game will go since they have so many outs. On the other hand it's just too good to not have on the play.

[Zhanger]

There's no good answer for TNN that we have in our tool set unfortunately. That sideboard seems fine a bit more singleton than I would like, but maybe that's just me. It's also really light on combo hate, but I guess that's just not a problem for you. For that meta if Maverick and D&T are prevalent then it might be worth it to run 1 sulfur elemental (he's also not half bad against Miracles as an EOT threat and easier to get through counterbalance lock if that happens).
Null rod I'm not a huge fan of. It stops top, but needle already does that and is much more flexible. It doesn't do anything against batterskull which is our main problem. Any other equipment SoFI, Jitte, etc are too slow to play against us. When they equip we can just bolt the creature in response. If they're using jitte half the time we can stifle the counter trigger and it's irrelevant. The only thing null rod does is it really hoses storm since they can't use half of their fast mana and stops the hellbent enabler that is LED. Since there isn't a lot of storm in your meta though I would cut it.

For D&T accept it's a bad match up and there's only so much you can do. With that being said this would probably be the best board plan
OTP:
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 force
+ 2 rough
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 sulfur elemental
OTD
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 daze

Like this is just a bad match up they have Mom and thalia and their mana denial plan is better than ours. On top of that half of their threats are must answer on the spot or huge roadblocks for us (flickerwisp, serra angel, Mirran crusader, Brimaz). They also have the stoneforge package which we have to deal with. There's just too many threats for us to keep on top of while they're wastelanding/porting us.

Maverick isn't that bad of a match up. It's slightly in their favor but not by much. So long as we kill drs, deal with stoneforge and keep knight of the board we're fine.
OTP
- 3 force
- 2 pierce this is just really bad here. It really doesn't do much and it might be better than force otp but definitely out otd.
- 2 probe
+ 2 submerge
+ 2 rough
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 sulfur elemental
OTD
- 2 probe
- 2 pierce
- 1 daze
- 2 force



Landstill is a weird match up and hard to board against. They're probably in the BUG shell with drs, loam, factory, pernicious deed, etc. For sideboard against them we really don't have much just because of the angle they attack from. Vendilion clique is good to snag loams out during draw steps. Pyroblast is pretty good since it hits standstill, tar pit, jtms, bs etc. If you have a loam in the board it's pretty good as well.

Grixis builds are just like any other tempo mirror it's all about who doesn't play as badly as the other. Tempo mirrors are by far the hardest part of playing RUG and just take a lot of practice. For boarding you'll want to shave all forces on the play since we don't need them and I like to keep 2 in on the draw since there's a lot of stuff we need to answer. If they're threat combination is something like delver, young pyro and tnn then you will definitely want rough and pyroblasts. I usually do something like this in tempo mirrors:
OTP:
- 4 force
+ 2 submerge (if they run goyf/tombstalker)
+ 1 pyroblast ( This varies depending on threats. If they're bug and I just see delver, drs, goyf then just 1, but if they have TNN board in 2 - 3)
+ 1 - 2 flusterstorm This just helps win counter wars and tempo mirrors are usually mana tight
+ 2 rough if they have young pyromancer
OTD just change what comes out:
- 2 force
- 2 pierce
*In tempo mirrors always keep probe in. Normally unless it's combo you don't need it post board because it just helps you feel out game 1. Tempo mirrors though the information is very helpful.

Esper blade, deathblade and UWR blade will have similar boarding strategies and how we should play the game. Stifle fetches if possible because it really helps our soft permission and keeping the game where we want it. If they play stonforge mystic there's a few routes to deal with it. The best way is snare or daze obviously. Half the time they will just go get batterskull anyways which is great for us since all we have to do is stifle the germ trigger. It's very time consuming for them to bounce it back followed by replaying it a turn later and so long as we have pressure we can win the race. The other option is just kill stoneforge. All together between bolts/counters/stifle we have like what 10 - 18 answers between counters and removal. Boarding you will want to do something like this:
OTP:
- 4 force
- 2 gitaxian probe
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 ancient grudge
+ 1 vendilion clique
+ 1 - 3 pyroblasts depending on if they're running TNN or not
+ 2 roughs if they're running young pyromancer in UWR or 1 against deathblade OTP isn't horrible since they have drs and stoneforge
OTD:
- 2 force
- 2 probe
- 2 daze
Against Deathblade OTD don't put rough in. Tapping out turn 2 while might net a 2 for 1 leads to blow outs turn 3 if they drop lili/TNN.
Stifle you could shave here, but I think it has too much value in these matchups as time walks against stoneforge or nullifying Liliana's edict effect.

Miracles is a really swingy 50/50 match up that can go either way. As for boarding do something like this:
OTP
- 2 gitaxian probe
- 2 forked bolt
- 2 bolt
+ 1 vendilion clique
+ 1 krosan grip
+ 1 pithing needle
+ 1 null rod
+ all pyroblasts you have
+ 1 - 2 flusterstorm This card is up for debate in this match up. Personally I really like it because it helps when fighting over important spells like entreat, jace, terminus, etc. It also by passes counterbalance lock at least the copies do which is niche, but nice to have up your sleeve incase you opponent punts tapping out for entreat.
OTD
- 2 forked bolt
- 2 gitaxian probe
- 4 daze this card is just outright bad on the draw against miracles. Even on the play if we draw it late game it's disgustingly bad which the game will go since they have so many outs. On the other hand it's just too good to not have on the play.


The land still type decks that I've been playing against is American, it's a very strong control type deck. I think I'm just not countering properly against it just because he seems to always have the upper hand. Thank you for this by the way, it's extremely helpful just because i'm not entirely just which cards to be looking to sideboard.:smile:

[goblinsplayer]

Since I picked up the deck, I have had trouble deciding which decks to take out stifle against, since almost every deck has an important stifle target. Any advice on which decks should I value stifle more against?

[Contract Killer]

The land still type decks that I've been playing against is American, it's a very strong control type deck. I think I'm just not countering properly against it just because he seems to always have the upper hand. Thank you for this by the way, it's extremely helpful just because i'm not entirely just which cards to be looking to sideboard.:smile:

I have a friend who plays UWR land still and it's definitely not an ideal match up but still better than BUG landstill. Pyroblast is king here because their late game finishers are going to be Geist of saint traft, TNN or JTMS. Similar to Miracles the game is bound to go long so making sure you only counter what needs to be like standstill TNN, Geist and jace is key. Despite how promising pyroblasting a brainstorm looks they could just be baiting you so that their swords, standstill, tnn etc will resolve. This is how I would board against them with probably the most rounded maindeck/sideboard you could run:
54 stock with 2/2/2 forked bolt, snare, pierce
sideboard
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
2 flusterstorm
2 submerge
2 rough
2 grafidgger's cage
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip
1 vendilion clique
1 sylvan library

OTP:
- 2 forked bolt unnecessary unless you see them running a stoneforge package which would be unusual, but it's a fringe deck with many different variants.
- 4 force of will
+ 2 pyroblast
+ 1 reb
+ 2 flusterstorm not amazing or mvp here, but it helps resolving counter wars which is important
+ 1 sylvan library great card engine in this match up especially since our life total doesn't matter too much.
If they're on geist of saint traft again it's a fringe deck and the lists will vary a lot then siding in rough as an answer is reasonable.
OTD:
- 2 pierce It's not at its best on the draw, but I still think daze holds value in beating early standstills or TNN that they try to jam.
- 2 forked bolt
- 1 stifle
- 1 daze both stifle and daze lose value on the draw but neither I would say is worse or better than the other.


Since I picked up the deck, I have had trouble deciding which decks to take out stifle against, since almost every deck has an important stifle target. Any advice on which decks should I value stifle more against?

Stifle is just a very high risk high reward card that has been up for debate about whether it should be in the deck to begin with for about as long as RUG Delver has been around. There are some decks that taking it out is just almost immediate listed below. Most of the time though it's just in a vague area where you'll might want to shave 1 copy and a daze or 2.
Merfolk OTP it might be worth keeping in if they're running fetches + wasteland. OTD shaving or cutting all is reasonable since you're not likely to hit fetches and at that point it's just protecting our lands from their 4 wastelands
MUD stifle does just about nothing here. You might get to blow someone's forgemaster trigger out of the water but aside from that it doesn't really do anyting.
Burn it's really bad here again OTP it might be worth it since tier 1 burn runs a full set of fetches and you can "counter" rift bolt. OTD I would definitely cut in favor of more counterspells/extra threats. Oh and a heads up if you win game 1 against burn watch out game 2 for ensnaring bridge. They sometimes bring it in against us and we can't beat that with out some artifact hate or on the stack. It's still not worth warranting a slot for revelry or grudge on the hunch, but if you see it game 2 bring in grudge game 3.
Reanimator I guess OTD I would cut it just because how fast they are. We need all the counters we can get against them and OTD stifle is just too slow/lack of targets for just fetches and maybe their 2 animate deads.
Elves stifle is pretty bad to be honest. Then again most of our deck is bad against elves. It's somewhere between daze and stifle being our worst card against them. Daze is definitely out against them OTD, but even OTP daze feels bad. Stifle isn't much better, but at least we can hit their fetches and possibly save ourselves from a craterhoof trigger.

Despite stifle being sometimes "dead" or card disadvantage it still has major tempo applications for us even OTD. Any decks running lili it's an added I guess pseudo counter if they rely on her to deal with goose. Decks with stoneforge mystic it can time walk their batterskull which they probably need to stabilize also giving us another chance at finding removal for stoneforge. Even against combo like Show and Tell or storm they still need lands and if they have trouble trying to get their lands resolve through a stifle then they might have less counter/hand disruption to protect their combo. OTD it sort of does nothing, but still interacts with a lot of fair decks (bug delver, maverick, D&T, UWR delver etc) and mid range decks (esper blade, deathblade, Shardless bug, Miracles, etc). I usually shave one and maybe a daze OTD depending on the deck, but it's still an integral part of our game plan. One of the best local legacy players I know attributed cutting stifle to this "cutting stifle is like switching from a good plan A to usually a worse plan B".

Here's a really good article about RUG delver and particularly stifle and how it plays in the deck:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23898_The_Ultimate_RUG_Delver_Primer.html
While I don't agree with how much Drew down plays stifle he raises some really good points. The most important of such I think is not letting stifle force you into making bad plays. Between holding up stifle turn 1 and playing out a threat the correct choice is almost always a threat. Once we get a creature on the board we can start controlling their board state, but if we try to do it in the other way around stifling a fetch actually doesn't help us much. Unless we have pressure to capitalize on them losing their land and their tempo then we actually didn't gain much tempo ourselves.

The other thing I don't like about his article (which I'm not sure if Miracles was even that popular at the time or still in it's infancy) he didn't go over stifles implications against terminus/entreat. Even if we're not countering terminus it still forces the miracles player to put it back on the top of their library somehow. At which point they either have to burn 2 turns setting it up with brainstorm or they have jace out in which case we're in bad shape to begin with. My point is if we have an active goose and keep them off of resolving terminus to deal with than the Miracles player is losing their window to stabilize and fast.

Drew also points out in that article that it's atrocious OTD. It's definitely at it's worse their, but it's still interacts with many important cards we care about more than I think he values the interaction at. Just understanding when to shave a few copies here and there over other cards comes with practice. There's no real easy explanation as to when to cut stifle, shave or keep it in it just comes with playing the deck and gaining experience.

[Islandswamp]

Hi everyone, I'm new to Legacy, I've always wanted to play it, and I finally was able to start playing the format on magic online. I started with a u/r delver deck with treasure cruise, that splashed for Tarmogoyfs, and since cruise got banned, I started making RUG Delver, as it looked good to me, and I was close to owning everything already.
This is the list I've been playing:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Forked Bolt
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Spell Snare

1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 True-Name Nemesis

I've been doing pretty well with it, and have beat a wide variety of decks. I also have another list saved where I try out new sideboard and main deck configurations.
Cards that I've been trying are: Sylvan Library, Divert, and Teferi's Response (the latter of which I feel won't end up being that good).

[Contract Killer]

Hi everyone, I'm new to Legacy, I've always wanted to play it, and I finally was able to start playing the format on magic online. I started with a u/r delver deck with treasure cruise, that splashed for Tarmogoyfs, and since cruise got banned, I started making RUG Delver, as it looked good to me, and I was close to owning everything already.
This is the list I've been playing:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Forked Bolt
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Spell Snare

1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 True-Name Nemesis

I've been doing pretty well with it, and have beat a wide variety of decks. I also have another list saved where I try out new sideboard and main deck configurations.
Cards that I've been trying are: Sylvan Library, Divert, and Teferi's Response (the latter of which I feel won't end up being that good).

That list seems ok except for the singleton Gitaxian Probe. Probe's utility is in having it in your opener to make our early sequencing better. The downside of probe is drawing it mid to late game usually isn't that good, and it makes our brainstorms and ponders worse since it's a "mystery" card. I would say for probe to be useful run 3. I've seen some lists run 2, but again I think it's just running 3+ or none at all to maximize it's potential.
I've tried Sylvan Library maindeck and it's ok or horrible depending on the match up. It's really good against combo, miracles and ok against some of the slower mid range UWR, esper and deathblade builds. The issue is it's too slow against other fair decks and effectively does nothing the turn we play it. Rather than advancing our boardstate it's a win more card that helps us get further ahead. I wouldn't say it's unplayable, but just that depending on your match ups it's either going to be amazing or just something to shuffle away with brainstorm.
Divert I've tried running in the board shortly after TNN came out and UWR delver with TNN was the big kid on the block. They have 8 removal spells so it seemed like it might be worthwhile out of the board. After testing it though it's just to conditional and corner case. I think my best result with it was swinging in with Goyfs against jund him having only 3 mana up after tapping for lili the previous turn. He was going to punishing fire one of my goyfs after he blocked with his, but I diverted it back at his goyf :D. I can also tell you right now Teferi's Response will be god awful.
The only things I would really change with that sideboard is take out the TNN (this may be more of personal preference). Unless there's a lot of miracles switch out the Vortex with something like another pyroblast/reb. The spell pierce out of the board I'm not a huge fan of seeing as where we want it most will be against combo and flusterstorm is just better for that purpose so I would just up flusterstorm to 2.

[Islandswamp]

That list seems ok except for the singleton Gitaxian Probe. Probe's utility is in having it in your opener to make our early sequencing better. The downside of probe is drawing it mid to late game usually isn't that good, and it makes our brainstorms and ponders worse since it's a "mystery" card. I would say for probe to be useful run 3. I've seen some lists run 2, but again I think it's just running 3+ or none at all to maximize it's potential.
I've tried Sylvan Library maindeck and it's ok or horrible depending on the match up. It's really good against combo, miracles and ok against some of the slower mid range UWR, esper and deathblade builds. The issue is it's too slow against other fair decks and effectively does nothing the turn we play it. Rather than advancing our boardstate it's a win more card that helps us get further ahead. I wouldn't say it's unplayable, but just that depending on your match ups it's either going to be amazing or just something to shuffle away with brainstorm.
Divert I've tried running in the board shortly after TNN came out and UWR delver with TNN was the big kid on the block. They have 8 removal spells so it seemed like it might be worthwhile out of the board. After testing it though it's just to conditional and corner case. I think my best result with it was swinging in with Goyfs against jund him having only 3 mana up after tapping for lili the previous turn. He was going to punishing fire one of my goyfs after he blocked with his, but I diverted it back at his goyf :D. I can also tell you right now Teferi's Response will be god awful.
The only things I would really change with that sideboard is take out the TNN (this may be more of personal preference). Unless there's a lot of miracles switch out the Vortex with something like another pyroblast/reb. The spell pierce out of the board I'm not a huge fan of seeing as where we want it most will be against combo and flusterstorm is just better for that purpose so I would just up flusterstorm to 2.

People in a legacy facebook group mentioned that someone played Teferi's Response on camera at an scg event. I had enough bot credit to pick one up without spending a ticket, so I picked it up. Divert I haven't even been able to use yet.

The list started with three probes. I cut down to two, then one. I guess I should just make a choice of either three or none. It's great at helping me know how to sequence my plays, as you said, plus it helps turn on threshold faster. The reason I cut it was I wanted to make room for the extra spell pierce and spell snare. I had games where I was doing great, and then they played a Goyf or SFM that I didn't have an answer for, I felt like spell snare was a good choice. And it has done well.

I think i'll save a list with no probes, and one with three, and take turns practicing with them to get a feel for what I want to be running.

The decks I've had the most trouble with are Death and Taxes, and Elves. I've since added a sulfur elemental to the sideboard. I keep winning one of the games against D&T, but they always seem to get me in game three. The Burn deck has beaten me a few times as well.

Thanks for the advice!

P.S. Since Treasure Cruise has been banned, and the ban took effect online, the metagame breakdown on mtggoldfish has gone back (i assume, as I'm new) to not having one deck take up a significantly larger portion of the percentage of decks. Right now, ANT and Miracles are listed on top. I have to assume that I'm more likely to be facing those top several decks more, and adjust my sideboard accordingly.

[ThomasDowd]

People in a legacy facebook group mentioned that someone played Teferi's Response on camera at an scg event. I had enough bot credit to pick one up without spending a ticket, so I picked it up. Divert I haven't even been able to use yet.

The list started with three probes. I cut down to two, then one. I guess I should just make a choice of either three or none. It's great at helping me know how to sequence my plays, as you said, plus it helps turn on threshold faster. The reason I cut it was I wanted to make room for the extra spell pierce and spell snare. I had games where I was doing great, and then they played a Goyf or SFM that I didn't have an answer for, I felt like spell snare was a good choice. And it has done well.

I think i'll save a list with no probes, and one with three, and take turns practicing with them to get a feel for what I want to be running.

The decks I've had the most trouble with are Death and Taxes, and Elves. I've since added a sulfur elemental to the sideboard. I keep winning one of the games against D&T, but they always seem to get me in game three. The Burn deck has beaten me a few times as well.

Thanks for the advice!

P.S. Since Treasure Cruise has been banned, and the ban took effect online, the metagame breakdown on mtggoldfish has gone back (i assume, as I'm new) to not having one deck take up a significantly larger portion of the percentage of decks. Right now, ANT and Miracles are listed on top. I have to assume that I'm more likely to be facing those top several decks more, and adjust my sideboard accordingly.

you could just cut probe entirely....

edit: I play 0 probes and 2 spell snare

[Contract Killer]

People in a legacy facebook group mentioned that someone played Teferi's Response on camera at an scg event. I had enough bot credit to pick one up without spending a ticket, so I picked it up. Divert I haven't even been able to use yet.

The list started with three probes. I cut down to two, then one. I guess I should just make a choice of either three or none. It's great at helping me know how to sequence my plays, as you said, plus it helps turn on threshold faster. The reason I cut it was I wanted to make room for the extra spell pierce and spell snare. I had games where I was doing great, and then they played a Goyf or SFM that I didn't have an answer for, I felt like spell snare was a good choice. And it has done well.

I think i'll save a list with no probes, and one with three, and take turns practicing with them to get a feel for what I want to be running.

The decks I've had the most trouble with are Death and Taxes, and Elves. I've since added a sulfur elemental to the sideboard. I keep winning one of the games against D&T, but they always seem to get me in game three. The Burn deck has beaten me a few times as well.

Thanks for the advice!

P.S. Since Treasure Cruise has been banned, and the ban took effect online, the metagame breakdown on mtggoldfish has gone back (i assume, as I'm new) to not having one deck take up a significantly larger portion of the percentage of decks. Right now, ANT and Miracles are listed on top. I have to assume that I'm more likely to be facing those top several decks more, and adjust my sideboard accordingly.

That's the other issue I've had with probe because even if you see something a mile away sometimes you still can't stop it. Many times I would see goyf or Liliana or something and then start digging for our only real answer for goyf force couldn't find it and then lost because theirs resolved.

As for D&T again it's a bad match up and that's something we just have to live with. The sideboard I listed above is the best you could really do against them without sacrificing slots against other decks. We just have to play really tight against them because they have so many must answer cards. On the bright side there's so many minute triggers they have to manage unless the player is good it's easy for them to make mistakes. Remember legacy is all about just not playing as bad as your opponent.

Elves again just a bad match up. I would almost go as far to say that if we lose game 1 we almost lose the set. Elves is just that powerful otp against us that if we lose game 1 and we do manage to win game 2 game 3 will still be absurdly hard. This is another deck that's really hard to play (I would rank it in the top 3 difficulty wise) so there's plenty of people that punt games away with it. Our best bet against them is for rough to dig us out after they extend out a bit and net some two for ones along with a forked bolt or two.

Miracles and ANT are both fairly tough match ups for us and the opponent. They just take a lot of planning and knowing how to play them. ANT I would almost say is harder than miracles because if the opponent is good they're definitely favored. To be perfectly honest just keep practicing those matches a lot there's no easy way to learn them just repletion.

[Islandswamp]

That's the other issue I've had with probe because even if you see something a mile away sometimes you still can't stop it. Many times I would see goyf or Liliana or something and then start digging for our only real answer for goyf force couldn't find it and then lost because theirs resolved.

As for D&T again it's a bad match up and that's something we just have to live with. The sideboard I listed above is the best you could really do against them without sacrificing slots against other decks. We just have to play really tight against them because they have so many must answer cards. On the bright side there's so many minute triggers they have to manage unless the player is good it's easy for them to make mistakes. Remember legacy is all about just not playing as bad as your opponent.

Elves again just a bad match up. I would almost go as far to say that if we lose game 1 we almost lose the set. Elves is just that powerful otp against us that if we lose game 1 and we do manage to win game 2 game 3 will still be absurdly hard. This is another deck that's really hard to play (I would rank it in the top 3 difficulty wise) so there's plenty of people that punt games away with it. Our best bet against them is for rough to dig us out after they extend out a bit and net some two for ones along with a forked bolt or two.

Miracles and ANT are both fairly tough match ups for us and the opponent. They just take a lot of planning and knowing how to play them. ANT I would almost say is harder than miracles because if the opponent is good they're definitely favored. To be perfectly honest just keep practicing those matches a lot there's no easy way to learn them just repletion.

With Miracles, I have beaten much more than I've lost to. I'd have to go look at my record to be certain.

It took me a while to get the hang of piloting this deck, but I think I'm advancing pretty well.

I write articles for puremtgo, and I wrote about my experiences playing the deck. I feel like a lot of times, I don't want to Jam a creature turn one, I'd rather hold up Stifle if possible. Once I started doing that, instead of just playing a delver turn one and having it die to something, I saw my win percentage climb.

I don't get to choose what I practice against, because I'm playing online, I also play at irregular times (whenever I happen to have the chance, basically). So I've only faced D&T twice, and elves twice. Both times I played D&T I managed to win one of the games pretty easily, and lost game three.

Thanks for the advice. I wish I'd started playing this format sooner, it's by far the most fun I've ever had playing constructed magic.:cool:

[Contract Killer]

I feel like a lot of times, I don't want to Jam a creature turn one, I'd rather hold up Stifle if possible. Once I started doing that, instead of just playing a delver turn one and having it die to something, I saw my win percentage climb.

I don't get to choose what I practice against, because I'm playing online, I also play at irregular times (whenever I happen to have the chance, basically). So I've only faced D&T twice, and elves twice. Both times I played D&T I managed to win one of the games pretty easily, and lost game three.

Thanks for the advice. I wish I'd started playing this format sooner, it's by far the most fun I've ever had playing constructed magic.:cool:

Online I could definitely see that holding up stifle turn 1 is reasonable if you have a second land. The issue I have is everyone at my LGS knows I play RUG Delver lol. With that being said I just kind of gave up on holding up stifle turn 1 since everyone knows that if I play land pass I have it and they'll either play non fetch or just wait to play around stifle. Personally I value playing out a turn 1 threat more than holding up stifle.

I just don't think the value of trying to get free wins is higher than the disadvantage of them playing out something other than a fetch and play like bayou into deathrite. They could also play basic island/plains into top in which case holding up stifle is dead. It could be a tempo mirror and they do underground sea/volcanic into delver in which case we're really behind. Then again I might just be going over my own experiences of trying to hold up stifle when everyone knows I have it lol. I will admit when it does work it makes the game so much easier.

[Alix444]

Is there anyway of quantifying the outcomes of holding stifle? I know experience know this by feel but I think it could still be really useful. Obviously we can not do this precisely but what does everyone think?

[Contract Killer]

Is there anyway of quantifying the outcomes of holding stifle? I know experience know this by feel but I think it could still be really useful. Obviously we can not do this precisely but what does everyone think?

There's no real way to calculate the possible ups and downs of keeping stifle live turn 1. The best way to look at it is that while it may hit their fetch if they don't fetch what's the outcome. Some of the basics rules of thumb I consider are as follows:
Don't hold stifle up if you only have 1 colored land
Don't hold stifle up if you have delver in hand with a way to protect it (even without a way of protecting it playing it out turn 1 is still right I think)
Don't hold stifle up turn 2 over playing out a goyf if it's your only threat in hand. We have to get our feet on the ground sometime and if we have to play goyf it's still better turn 2 than 3 as the game is going to go longer and thus in their favor.

Like I said in an earlier post gaining tempo off of stifling a fetch is only helping us if we have pressure. This is akin to how in a lot of Jacob Wilson's videos he makes the comment that "if they wasteland me here I'm fine because I have a threat out and they don't" or something along those lines. The point is if the opponent wastelands you and you have lets say 2 duals a delver/goose and they then have 1 dual then it's definitely in our favor. They're forfeiting their land drop to slightly hinder our mana even though we can operate on one mana and it doesn't help them deal with our threat. Despite them being behind 2 land drops because of the stifle if they have more lands it doesn't matter. I mean I guess I might just be down playing stifle's value turn 1 because it hasn't helped me in years. There's a number of deck types that either have really good turn 1 plays that make holding up stifle bad or having a threat is more important:
Jund, bug delver, shardless bug all have deathrite to play turn 1 and if they don't have a fetch it's horrible for us
D&T well we might as well have punted seeing as they will just play out vial pass same with merfolk
Miracles has enough lands and answers to our threats the game will go very long. We need to get a threat out asap and our mana denial isn't even that good against them.
Combo has many turn 1 plays that invalidate this probe/duress (storm), island followed by ponder (SnT).

I'm not saying it's bad it's just very high risk high reward. It can either end great with us playing out a threat turn 2 followed by a wasteland turn 3 or they can play bayou deathrite go. We could hold up stifle and just see island top go. I will point out if you're doing well in a legacy tournament lets say round 3 and you're 2-0 any other people that are doing well will probably have scouted you. If the other people know how to play against stifle then holding it up is just really bad. They will immediately play out any duals/basics first and then we just wasted time. I tend to be a pessimist in general, so this might just be my opinion/conditioning because of my LGS with everyone knowing I play stifle. It's just do you consider holding up stifle turn 1 better than playing out a threat/pondering to find a threat if we don't have one. If you do think holding up stifle is better than any of the scenarios I listed above are just par for the course of how things can go sideways real fast if we take that line of play.

[Alix444]

I can see what you are advocating, and I do agree it is similar to getting wasted with a delver in play. Going through old posts of this thread I have seen a lot of discussion of the 7/8 bolt builds. It seems pretty strong and I will be testing 54 + 4 Chain Lightning + 2 Spell Pierce. I'm planning on doming people with unused mana and burn. I'm also learning this deck in general so I doubt I will have any new news.

Ok so I was gold fishing and wanted to get some advice. Say I'm on the play and our opening hand is: Delver, Volcanic, Stifle, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, and Wasteland. We open with Volcanic into Delver our ideal T1, if our opponent plays a one mana removal we are basically always forcing it right? As for what to remove I am really conflicted if my opponent is playing a decent number of fetches.

[philipneri]

Played in my third Legacy 8-man today at my LGS. I am still playing Daniel Olivieri's list from the Legacy Open at SCG Atlanta. I went 3-0 again beating MUD, Lands, and Death & Taxes.

Round 1: MUD (2-0)
Game 1: I get two Delvers going. I Daze my opponent's Grim Monolith, Waste his Cloudpoast, and Force his Metalworker. Delvers get there.
Game 2: My opponent gets Chalice of the Void on 1 on T1. I land two Goyfs. I Daze his Lodestone Golem and Daze his Kudoltha Forgemaster. Goyfs get there.

Round 2: Lands (2-1)
Game 1: I get two early Delvers. He gets Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows going and gets rid of my Delvers. I land a Goyf and a Goose and have lethal on board. He Intuitions for Glacial Chasm. I Brainstorm into a Wasteland and swing for the win.
Game 2: My opponent gets Chalice of the Void on 1 on T1 and eventually gets Crucible of the Worlds/Wasteland going. I concede the game with 2x Delver, 2x Nimble Mongoose, 2x Brainstorm, 1x Ponder, and 1x Gitaxian Probe in my hand and no lands in play.
Game 3: T1 I Force his Chalice. T2 I play Goyf. He Gambles for another Chalice but discards it. T3 I play TNN. My opponent scoops.

Round 3: Death & Taxes (2-0)
Game 1: I Forked Bolt his Mother of Runes. I play Delver and Daze his Thalia. He tries to Plow my Delver on his Turn 3. I Force it. He tries to Plow my Delver again on Turn 4. It resolves. But I Brainstorm into a Goyf and a Goose. He gets another Thalia down, but I pay two to bolt it. Goyf and Goose get there.
Game 2: More of the same.

I have been playing Legacy for a little less than a month. I have gone 8-1 and have won $100 in store credit. I am still amazed at how amazing Legacy is.

[Slide]

Hey guys! Daniel here with a 8-man local tournament report!

List is standard 54 with the following flex slots.

2 Chain Lightning
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Gitaxian Probe

Sideboard:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flusterstorm
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip


Match 1: Miracles (RiP/Helm)

Game 1
I win the die roll, and play a turn 1 Delver. Delver gets swords'd and I play a Gitaxian Probe and see double counterbalance with force backup. I play a Tarmogoyf, and it gets forced pitching a CB. I don't fight over it because I'm scared of the other CB lock. Eventually, I counter the second Counterbalance, and Spell Snare a RiP while goose gets there.

Sideboard
-2 Chain Lightning
-4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Tarmogoyf

+3 Pyroblast
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Sulfuric Vortex
+1 Sulfur Elemental
+1 True-Name Nemesis

Game 2
He mulls to 6. My opening hand is Goose, Delver, Krosan Grip, Wasteland, Fetch, Fetch, Fetch. Turn 1 he Enlightened Tutor getting a Top, after fetching a plains. He spins top for 2 turns and doesn't play any more lands. Smelling blood, I Krosan Grip the top, locking him out. Goose makes short work of him after.

Match 2: Burn (RW, with RiP in the board)

Game 1
I get there fast with a turn 1 Delver. I end the game at 5 life.

Sideboard
-2 Chain Lightning (This is one of those matchups where Forked Bolt is better)
-1 Stifle
-1 Gitaxian Probe


+2 Rough // Tumble (I HAVE to kill the Eidelon of the Great Revel)
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosan Grip (for Eidelon and Sulfuric Vortex)

Game 2
3 Eidelons throughout the game really screws me. Even with my heads up play against Price of Progress with 3 duals and a wastland in play of: Bolt you, hold priority, daze the bolt, pay for it, waste my own land, take 2. I can't get enough creatures on board not to get blown out by a Swiftspear + bolt, so I durdle too long and die.

Game 3
I stifle a rift bolt, and Mongoose starts beating. I'm able to get him down to 5, and he plays a sulfuric vortex, which resolves. He plays a Ensnaring Bridge and I spell pierce it. I Stifle the Vortex trigger on my turn, Mongoose takes him down to 2, and his own Vortex kills him.


Match 3 4-Color Land Destruction (No Red)

Game 1
I lose the die roll. He goes turn 1 Delta -> U. Sea -> Ponder. I play a Volcanic and pass, holding up Stifle. Turn 2 he plays another Sea. At this point I'm thinking Storm. I Wasteland him and it gets Stifle'd. BUG Delver maybe!?. Next turn he plays a Bayou and casts Life from the Loam. I'm confused at this point. Then the next turn, he plays a Sinkhole, and I Daze it. I only have my 1 Volcanic, and I spend the next few turns protecting it. Eventually, he gets a wasteland -> Loam online and I scoop after 2 Baleful strix are beating down and I've had no lands for 3 turns. During the game, I saw Top, Jace, and Abrupt Decay.

-2 Force of Will
-2 Chain Lightning

+2 Pyroblast
+1 True Name-Nemesis
+1 Sulfuric Vortex

Game 2
My Stifle/Wastelands are better than his this game. I get Mongoose online and play the you-can't-have-any-lands game. At one point he has 2 Lands, a Delta, and a Top in play. I play a Pithing Needle, and he spins top. Then he says ok. I thought about it for a second, and thought that he was afraid I would name Delta if he drew off Top. I try to next-level and name Delta. It works, and he does nothing for the next few turns with Goose beating down for 1. He plays a Mishra's factory and attempts to block/pump a thresh'd Mongoose. Summoning sickness makes him lose his factory after a judge call. Mongoose gets there.

Game 3
I'm nervous about getting to 3 lands on the draw, but I decide True-Name and Vortex are too good against Decay/Durdle. I slam a turn 3 vortex after protecting my lands with Stifle. I get a Goose down and I'm quickly winning the race. I Spell Snare a Snapcaster and get in for lethal.

Finished 1st after the other top 4 didn't want to play it out.

Overall, I was happy with how the deck played. I put Zuran Orb back in my board because of how close the burn matchup was. Eidelon is the real deal, and if my burn opponent knew the format better, he would have won. I cut True-Name even though I didn't want to. I might put him back in instead of the 3rd Pyroblast, as I don't totally comfortable with only being able to answer a True-Name on the stack. But Pyroblast is so good... GAH.

I think Treasure Cruise's banning made the format worse for us, but we're still strong. Anyway, keep the Goose loose, and live the RUG Delver dream.

[philipneri]

Hey guys! Daniel here with a 8-man local tournament report!

I think Treasure Cruise's banning made the format worse for us, but we're still strong. Anyway, keep the Goose loose, and live the RUG Delver dream.

Hey Daniel, thanks for the tournament report. It was much more interesting than mine. I just started playing Legacy a month ago. And your sideboard guide (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27776-Deck-Canadian-Threshold-(aka-RUG-Delver-Tempo-Thresh)&p=853564&highlight=#post853564) really helped me get into the format. So super big two thumbs up thank you!

[Alix444]

I can see what you are advocating, and I do agree it is similar to getting wasted with a delver in play. Going through old posts of this thread I have seen a lot of discussion of the 7/8 bolt builds. It seems pretty strong and I will be testing 54 + 4 Chain Lightning + 2 Spell Pierce. I'm planning on doming people with unused mana and burn. I'm also learning this deck in general so I doubt I will have any new news.

Ok so I was gold fishing and wanted to get some advice. Say I'm on the play and our opening hand is: Delver, Volcanic, Stifle, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, and Wasteland. We open with Volcanic into Delver our ideal T1, if our opponent plays a one mana removal we are basically always forcing it right? As for what to remove I am really conflicted if my opponent is playing a decent number of fetches.

Can someone provide their experience on something like this? I get very little opportunities to play legacy and gold fishing is sometimes all I get to do.

[Contract Killer]

I can see what you are advocating, and I do agree it is similar to getting wasted with a delver in play. Going through old posts of this thread I have seen a lot of discussion of the 7/8 bolt builds. It seems pretty strong and I will be testing 54 + 4 Chain Lightning + 2 Spell Pierce. I'm planning on doming people with unused mana and burn. I'm also learning this deck in general so I doubt I will have any new news.

Ok so I was gold fishing and wanted to get some advice. Say I'm on the play and our opening hand is: Delver, Volcanic, Stifle, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, and Wasteland. We open with Volcanic into Delver our ideal T1, if our opponent plays a one mana removal we are basically always forcing it right? As for what to remove I am really conflicted if my opponent is playing a decent number of fetches.

The main idea with the 8 bolt list came up when TNN was really popular (which it still is but not as much). The idea is that you would just up and over TNN. Basically the math works out that everyone's life total in legacy is 18 based off of either fetches or force. Fortunately 18 works out to 6 bolts or hits with any of our creatures. With 8 bolts + 12 creatures = 20 bolts total and you're essentially running UR delver... with better creatures... and mana denial... just a better UR delver build lol.

So with the hand you said there's a few different things to look at:
Delver, Volcanic, Stifle, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, and Wasteland

Ok to be perfectly honest this is just a tough decision and for the most part I would probably just play too conservatively and pitch stifle. On the other hand stifle + wasteland is a powerful combination so pitching brainstorm is reasonable to. There are a few specific decks that I think pitching one over the other might be right or at least have different ways the game would play out.
If the opponent goes flooded strand plains swords they're on miracles which means the game will probably go long. Pitching brainstorm and holding stifle to deal with terminus is reasonable, but they'll probably have a different removal before that. Another opinion would be that they have snapcaster, Vendilion clique, 2-3 more swords and 3-4 terminuses so delver might not get there even with stifle for terminus and saving brainstorm to find trop + threat is another possibility.

Now let's say the opponent goes delta/misty fetch sea/bayou disfigure. This means they're definitely on BUG delver which pitching brainstorm I think would be the best choice. We're going to waste them turn 2 and on top of that we have stifle for an additional fetch. This means they won't get to decay until turn 4 hopefully which will give us plenty of time to draw into more steam. The downside here is if they have force for our stifle and have decay.

If they're on Jund based off of catacomb into badlands then I would probably pitch brainstorm. Again they're a fair deck that has deathrite, decay and goyf. Much like BUG delver our best bet against these decks is to out tempo letting stifle and wasteland get us some free wins. Another key thing here is since they're jund they won't have counter magic g1 meaning if they have another fetch after our waste our stifle will hit gold no questions asked unlike against BUG delver.

The other scenario is they go flooded strand into tundra they could be UWR delver, Esperblade or deathblade. Pretty much all of these decks have some scary high end stuff... well they have TNN lol. So again it comes down to do we want to roll the dice and hope wasteland + stifle gets there or be more conservative and keep brainstorm to dig for more threats.

Both options are right it's just specific matches like BUG delver or JUND it might be better to keep stifle. We just can't interact with abrupt decay so keeping them from getting to the mana is our best bet. Now against miracles pitching stifle might be better because of how many outs they have. I wouldn't say one choice is better than the other they just have differnet advantages and disadvantages based on the match up.

[FoolofaTook]

Online I could definitely see that holding up stifle turn 1 is reasonable if you have a second land. The issue I have is everyone at my LGS knows I play RUG Delver lol. With that being said I just kind of gave up on holding up stifle turn 1 since everyone knows that if I play land pass I have it and they'll either play non fetch or just wait to play around stifle. Personally I value playing out a turn 1 threat more than holding up stifle.

I just don't think the value of trying to get free wins is higher than the disadvantage of them playing out something other than a fetch and play like bayou into deathrite. They could also play basic island/plains into top in which case holding up stifle is dead. It could be a tempo mirror and they do underground sea/volcanic into delver in which case we're really behind. Then again I might just be going over my own experiences of trying to hold up stifle when everyone knows I have it lol. I will admit when it does work it makes the game so much easier.

If you're sitting on a single colored land, Delver and Stifle and you go the Delver route and they wasteland your single land you're going to lose most of the time. I guess it depends on what else you have in your hand but Delver, Stifle and Daze or Pierce is not protection for your Delver if they waste your only island on turn 1.

What do you do when you open up fetch, Delver, Stifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt and another threat on the play? Is that a keep or a toss back and if you keep it do you hold up Stifle to allow you to resolve Brainstorm on opponent's EoT to dig for land?

[wbw]

If you're sitting on a single colored land, Delver and Stifle and you go the Delver route and they wasteland your single land you're going to lose most of the time. I guess it depends on what else you have in your hand but Delver, Stifle and Daze or Pierce is not protection for your Delver if they waste your only island on turn 1.


Except if the opponent probed you and saw you have no other land, turn 1 Wasteland is a really bad play from your opponent, if he/she is already facing your Delver. Sometimes you may lose due to this bad play, but sometimes your opponent just gave you a free Time Walk.

Let's play the reverse game, you are on the draw with this hand: Fetch, Wasteland, Daze, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm, Stifle. Your opponent starts with Fetch>Volcanic>Delver>Go! Now it is your turn, would you waste your opponent's land?



What do you do when you open up fetch, Delver, Stifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt and another threat on the play? Is that a keep or a toss back and if you keep it do you hold up Stifle to allow you to resolve Brainstorm on opponent's EoT to dig for land?

Assuming I have no idea what deck opponent is playing, I would keep this hand and play Delver on turn 1 after fetching a Volcanic Island. Depending on my opponent turn 1 play, I could Daze it and then keep Stifle/Bolt mana up.

By the way, Brainstorm on opponent's EoT is not a good play. I don't even think you should be desperate at digging a second land, the proposed hand has interaction for a couple of turns and you can wait and see if you naturally draw a second mana source. However, if after a few turns your opponent managed to get rid of your Delver, your only other threat is green and you still haven't found your second land, you may want to use your Brainstorm to find it. But, you should do it during your main phase, since you will see one more card this way.

[cartothemax]

Except if the opponent probed you and saw you have no other land, turn 1 Wasteland is a really bad play from your opponent, if he/she is already facing your Delver. Sometimes you may lose due to this bad play, but sometimes your opponent just gave you a free Time Walk.

Let's play the reverse game, you are on the draw with this hand: Fetch, Wasteland, Daze, Delver, Ponder, Brainstorm, Stifle. Your opponent starts with Fetch>Volcanic>Delver>Go! Now it is your turn, would you waste your opponent's land?
I would not waste here and I think that's the point you are trying to make though? Pointing out how bad that would be for your opponent to waste you after a T1 Delver on the play.




Assuming I have no idea what deck opponent is playing, I would keep this hand and play Delver on turn 1 after fetching a Volcanic Island. Depending on my opponent turn 1 play, I could Daze it and then keep Stifle/Bolt mana up.

100% agree with you here. I would add that I would let almost all "fluff" spells resolve (Ponder, Brainstorm, etc.) and aggressively go after T1 business plays that my opponent has.



By the way, Brainstorm on opponent's EoT is not a good play. I don't even think you should be desperate at digging a second land, the proposed hand has interaction for a couple of turns and you can wait and see if you naturally draw a second mana source. However, if after a few turns your opponent managed to get rid of your Delver, your only other threat is green and you still haven't found your second land, you may want to use your Brainstorm to find it. But, you should do it during your main phase, since you will see one more card this way.

Again agree here. The best Brainstorm is the one that you don't use. It's difficult to do, but holding out longer for Brainstorm only makes them better and better. You will have more knowledge of the game to work off, you will be looking deeper in your deck, more likely to naturally draw a shuffle effect, and it is best to use on your turn like wbw said.

[Contract Killer]

So I recently played in a legacy for duals event that had 51 players and I ended up finishing 11th. My final record was 4/2 and the 2 people I lost to did make top 8 and one of them took first which is awesome. Anyways on to the actual tournament report.

Stock 54 main deck with a 2/2/2 split on spell pierce, forked bolt and spell snare.

Sideboard:
2 flusterstorm
2 envelop
1 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 vendilion clique
2 submerge
2 rough // tumble
2 grafdigger’s cage
1 ancient grudge
1 krosan grip

Round 1 Shardless bug 2/0
Definitely one of our worst match ups, but I did know what he was on and kept a solid hand against him. My opener had waste, waste, delver, force, fetch, and I think a cantrip or removal something like that. My delver flipped and I was able to waste him 3 times back to back after finding a third after a cantrip.

Game 2
I kept a hand with a goyf some permission a wasteland and a stifle I think. After getting a goyf down turn 2 and stifling his second fetch he played out a strix. I cantriped found a forked bolt and goyf swung for 5. He had an abrupt decay on his turn followed by me playing a second goyf on my turn. Somewhere around turn 5 he thoughtseized and saw my hand of force, submerge, stifle and snare all redundant and very good against him. Goyf got there in a turn or two after forcing a shardless agent and submerging the other one for Goyf to go in for the kill.

Round 2 Aluren1/2
So game 1 I kind of punted. I kept a standard hand of permission some cantrips and a Goyf. Unfortunately it’s Aluren so goyf kept getting stonewalled at every turn. Eventually he got to 3 and I had goyf out and force, delver, land in hand, he had 2 cards in hand 6 lands out. I decided to play delver out leaving me with a dead force in hand. I remember going through the math of having 4 cantrips + 3 bolts left in my library. I knew his outs were going to be something like 2 strix, 4 abrupt decays. The main thing I didn’t want to happen was him shardless agent into strix/decay. Unfortunately his other two cards were Aluren and imperial recruiter and he won on my upkeep.

Game 2 I got there with a goose and a goyf. I made sure to keep deathrite and strixes off the board and I pierced an Aluren. That’s the one bright side about this match up is their combo piece is 4 mana which makes pierce and daze pretty good.

Game 3 I kept a fairly heavy creature hand of delver, goose, goyf and he had a much better hand. He had something like 2 deathrites and a carpet of flowers in addition he also had a strix and decay.

Round 3 Infect 2/0
I think this is probably one of our best combo matches. They rely on operating with very little mana and all their combo pieces our removal hits. Game 1 I kept a bit of a control like hand of countermagic and removal. Eventually I got a goyf and goose out and made short work of his life total.

Game 2 I had a delver and some bolts to make for a fast start. I killed a few of his threats a long with wastelanding one of his 2 inkmoths he had. He eventually got a noble hirearch + inkmoth and I was at 4 poison and he had 8 life. I played out a goose and goyf and then passed. He swung in for another 2 passed back. I attacked for lethal forcing him to block with his inkmoth and noble. The next turn I got there with lethal on board between 3 creatures.

Round 4 UR delver 2/1
Game 1 I lost pretty fast. He was on the play with a really fast hand of delver and 2 swiftspears. There wasn’t much I could do I could deal with the delver, but couldn’t stop the swiftspears fast enough. After he dropped a young pyromancer that sealed the deal.

Game 2 He was on a mull to 5 and I had a really good hand with goose and goyf. That’s one good thing about this match up they really can’t beat our green threats.

Game 3 was really close and one of my best games of the day. I had a delver going for a while and then he was able to kill it after a few hits. That’s where things got interesting. He got 2 swiftspears out again and we were off to the races with my geese against his swiftspears. After he landed a TNN he passed and I then I passed back. He attacked with TNN leaving his swiftspears back to block my goyf and a goose. I went into the tank for a while because he had 1 card in hand and I had a rough in hand. Eventually I realized things weren’t going to get better I roughed… and he had no instant the geeses and goyf got there.

Round 5 miracles 1/2
Game 1 was really fast. I was otp and had a hand goose some protection a wasteland and a stifle. He was pretty mana choked after my wasteland and stifle struck gold. Goose got to threshold fast after some cantrips and he couldn’t stabilize in time.

Game 2 was a bit rough. I got a goose out on turn 3 after holding up a fair amount of counter magic the early turns (fluster, pyroblast, daze and snare). After I played the goose out I played a ponder and passed with one mana up. He Attempted a terminus on his draw step which got stifled. The thing was I was tapped out and then he played out a counterbalance which resolved. That was pretty much game and we moved to game 3. In retrospect I may have played too much on instinct by stifling the fetch. I didn’t have another threat in hand, but I also should have taken time to consider what his follow up would be and the repercussions for tapping out without force.

Game 3 I had a good hand with goose some cantrips and permission. Eventually around turn 5 or something he was at 8 and landed a counterbalance. Two turns later I drew Krosan grip and it felt great… until he played out another counterbalance on his turn. He had been floating a second counterbalance for two drops which is definitely right just unfortunate for me. I talked it over with him after the game and he said normally what I did was right, but in that particular scenario hitting top would have been more detrimental. I couldn’t have known that, but that’s just how the game went.

Round 6 Mirror 2/1
There was a small chance that a 4/2 would make it so I decided to play out my 6th round. It was the mirror which I actually really like. He won the die role, but kept a trop delver hand and 2 wastelands. My hand was more mana heavy with some disruption and a wasteland. After dealing with his delver we both had force back up, but he didn’t have a second counter for my force I got to wasteland him. That was pretty much game I got a goose out and he didn’t draw mana after that.

Game 2 He had a really good delver hand and there wasn’t much I could do. After a stifle and a wasteland I was just too far behind to catch up. Much like game 1 but the tables had turned.

Game 3 Was really fun. I had a turn 1 delver hand unfortunately it didn’t flip. He had played out a goose and it gave me a really interesting choice. I had a goose in hand as well as a wasteland. I swung in with delver after being slightly puzzled he blocked with goose. Second main phase I wasted him and played out a goose. That’s one thing in the mirror it’s pretty much who gets more goyfs or geese since we can’t answer either of them. Shortly after that I had drawn some stifles and fought over his fetches. After I stifled 2 fetches and wasted him he was too far behind and couldn’t answer goose.

Overall it was a really good tournament. I think I played tight all day except in my game 1 against Aluren. I’m still not sure which was the better choice in the outcome that he has decay or shardless playing out delver was right. That’s something like at least 6 outs at the time I think and he still had 2 cards in hand. Holding delver back for force fodder only really helps if he just has one creature, both combo pieces or brainstorms to try and find an out. I guess in the outcome he plays shardless I’m still favored with 3 bolts to draw despite being stonewalled for 2 turns (or 1 if I force, but if I commit to this line I just hold force for where it matters like strix, brainstorm, Aluren etc).

My games against miracles were all good and I had played against him a lot before in testing. Talking some after the tournament we talked and he thinks I’m favored game 1 which might be right. I’ve always felt that miracles is 50/50 or close to it, but sideboard they get a lot more early game pieces to deal with our threats. Postboard they have at least 5 threats to trade with our geese (some of which trade with delver as well). They also get an EE and maybe something like a supreme verdict. Still probably one of my favorite matches to play with RUG it has so many interesting interactions.

[poxy14]

@contractkiller: still a very solid finish! grats! i might pick this deck back on March 1, im on a streak with 3 top8's via UGInfect, i would love to stifle fetches back again with RUG, your SB is very solid, i might use that list...

[Contract Killer]

@contractkiller: still a very solid finish! grats! i might pick this deck back on March 1, im on a streak with 3 top8's via UGInfect, i would love to stifle fetches back again with RUG, your SB is very solid, i might use that list...

Thanks yeah after testing some with it I really like the envelops in the board. They're very versatile hitting miracles and the 3 most played combo decks storm, elves and show and tell variants. The other nice part about envelop against miracles is that it actually counters terminus/entreat. Stifle more or less counters it, but it's still only a tempo play and we end up having to deal with that same terminus down the road after they brainstorm or something. This way countering the terminus we actually trade 1 for 1 and not just buy time. I mean time is all we really need against miracles but it still helps to add more pressure for less outs to deal with goose. Even against burn I actually think envelop is ok I mean it hits what 12 bolt variants against them still better than stifle maybe hitting a fetch or a rift bolt. I think there were 3 UG infect decks at the tournament I was at. It was definitely tier 1 pre kahns and is slowly regaining popularity now that cruise is banned.

[wbw]

I would not waste here and I think that's the point you are trying to make though? Pointing out how bad that would be for your opponent to waste you after a T1 Delver on the play.


Exactly!


Thanks yeah after testing some with it I really like the envelops in the board. They're very versatile hitting miracles and the 3 most played combo decks storm, elves and show and tell variants. The other nice part about envelop against miracles is that it actually counters terminus/entreat. Stifle more or less counters it, but it's still only a tempo play and we end up having to deal with that same terminus down the road after they brainstorm or something. This way countering the terminus we actually trade 1 for 1 and not just buy time. I mean time is all we really need against miracles but it still helps to add more pressure for less outs to deal with goose. Even against burn I actually think envelop is ok I mean it hits what 12 bolt variants against them still better than stifle maybe hitting a fetch or a rift bolt. I think there were 3 UG infect decks at the tournament I was at. It was definitely tier 1 pre kahns and is slowly regaining popularity now that cruise is banned.

A card I like to have against miracles is Pithing Needle. But your sideboard is already pretty good, no idea if it is worth to cut something to have a needle.

[Contract Killer]

A card I like to have against miracles is Pithing Needle. But your sideboard is already pretty good, no idea if it is worth to cut something to have a needle.

Pithing needle is good against miracles, but not much else. Outside of miracles it’s good against D&T and Maverick, but that’s about it. The thing about pithing needle is it’s the epitome of virtual card advantage. You can name one thing with it like Deathrite, mom, or rishadan port but it still doesn’t have that big of an impact. If we draw it too late than the damage is already done and needle won’t do a lot. Miracles though can get crippled by needle because they rely on top. I’m not saying needle is bad, but outside of miracles it’s utility diminishes.

On another note I just finished a weekly and went 3/1
Round 1 Glenn Jones 4c Delver 1/2
Game 1 He’s on the play and I keep a delver hand with a lot of can trips and a delver. He gets a deathrite out early on and I try to find some removal for it but can’t. Eventually he gets a second deathrite out in addition to a delver in the air and I get flooded out with 4 lands and my cantrips bricking on removal.

Game 2 I keep a delver hand and things go great. I daze his first turn deathrite and delver flips off of a second daze. Turn 3 I wasteland him and he is having to play around the stifle in my hand (he had probe so he knew). I play out a second delver turn 4 and the game wraps up shortly after that.

Game 3 I just kind of punted this one. I keep a hand with pyroblast, bolt, ponder, brainstorm, trop, stifle, daze. He leads off on delver pass. My turn I ponder and see force, wasteland, delver. I thought that drawing the force into wasteland with the stifle in hand might buy me enough time to find red mana and deal with the delver. He wastelands me turn 2 and I didn’t draw another land.

Round 2 Storm 2/0
Game 1 I keep a hand of ponder, brainstorm, brainstorm, fetch, wasteland, goose, goose. He has turn 1 duress taking my ponder. I play out a goose on my turn and pass. His turn he brainstorms plays petal preordain bottom bottom pass. I wasteland him and that was pretty much game.

Game 2 I keep a delver hand with force, snare flusterstorm, clique and some lands. I think I stifled a land turn 2 and I had a enough pressure that he tried to go for ad nauseam and I just had too much counter magic for him to play around.

Round 3 UWR midrange 2/0
Game 1 there wasn’t a whole lot going on I kept a hand with goose poking him the first few turns trying to figure out what he was on. He lead with island ponder and played some more cantrips in the early turns. Ultimately he just got flooded having 5+ lands (tundras and volcnaics) out at the end of the game. He did try to stabilize at 8 or so with monastery mentor, but I had the bolt for it… and the second mentor… the third mentor stuck. He had 3 back to back the first 2 I dealt with and the third my 2 geese ate away at while he was top decking.

Game 2 I keep another hand with goose and he isn’t nearly as mana flooded. I get a wasteland or two off, but they didn’t do much. Right when goose was about to get online he landed RIP which I tried to fight over with snare, but he had force. So the game went fairly long I think somewhere down the line I drew a delver and was able to protect it while goose kept poking him. Despite him landing RIP goose still got there I just had to counter every young pyromancer and mentor until delver arrived lol

Round 4 BUG Delver
Game 1 He won the roll and had a delver hand. He tried to play out a delver on his turn 1, but it got hit with a forked bolt that he tried to daze and then I dazed back. Eventually while he was can tripping I got my delver out on turn 2 or 3. It beat him down to 12 or I so I think and then he landed goyf. He tried to race, but I was too far ahead.

Game 2 I had another delver hand and also a lot of mana denial. The early turns I fought over his threats much like game 1. He played out another delver with a fetch up. On my turn I fetched with a dual up, he fetched in response. I stifled his and he didn’t have a counter. My delver eventually got there and that sealed the deal.

One of my friends was playing a really interesting list at that tournament too it was:
Stock 54 RUG with 2 snare/ 2 forked bolt/ 2 standstill.

He said he was just tooling around with it since it was an area that he hadn’t seen explored much in RUG and thought it might be worth a shot. While he didn’t have any amazing success with it that night (mainly just ripped from his hand, pitched to force, or countered) it did intrigue me.

Here’s how I’m looking at it that it’s a more tempo oriented sylvan library for us. Sylvan library to begin with is almost main deck playable in rug with a few flaws mainly that it doesn’t do anything the turn it’s played. Standstill on the other hand remedies this by playing right into our game plan of letting the opponent make the first move and then fight over it with counters a, b and c.

Essentially the way I see it there are 2 possible scenarios for having standstill in RUG.

Scenario A: We have a threat out and they have an empty board. We’re already ahead and after we swing with our threat that will test if they have removal. If they don’t we can slam standstill second main and there’s not much they can do at that point. At worst it eats a force or something at best we get recall.

Scenario B: They already have a board presence with deathrite or something. Unless we have a Goyf it’s probably wrong to play it or if we have goose a large graveyard and few creatures in the bins. This scenario it’s going to be bad, but we could do other things while we wait for the scales to turn in our favor.

Now with that being said there are also a few decks that I think this would be great against. Shardless BUG constantly wants to tap every turn and playing it out against them helps us keep up with them. Miracles is another deck that if we have a goyf or delver out if we land standstill they’ll eventually have to do something. Any other tempo or fair decks so long as we have a threat out if we land this the game might as well be over.
I haven’t done a whole lot of testing with it yet, but it seems worthwhile to try. In addition like stifle it could lead to some easy wins because of people not knowing how to play against it very well. It does the exact thing RUG wants it forces the opponents hand.

[zzregz]

Guys what do you think to my build? I plan to borrow poxy's rug for a tournament on march 1 but i decided to make it something different that will surprise all my opponent.

Heres my list:

4 goyf
4 delver
4 swiftspear
(12 creature)

4 fow
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 l bolt
4 gprobe
3 f bolt
2 preordain
1 ddt
(30 os)

3 s tarn
3 misty r
2 wooded f
2 wasteland
3 volc
3 trop
1 island
1 mountain
(18 land)


1 hull breach
2 pyroblast
1 a grudge
1 p needle
1 cursed totem
2 g cage
1 s ooze
1 dismember
1 krosan g
1 flusterstorm
1 negate
2 submerge
1 surgical e
1 grim lavamancer
(15 sb)


I've play test this build and it was fast to kill an opponent and once goyf is on play he/she will be shock because he might think that im a ur delver. Also theres a high chance that my opponent could sb a wrong card. And that will be a high percentage that i could win the match. I wish i can have your yes to my build and approval to the owner of the deck poxy14. Thanks and more fun of playing magic, god bless for all of us.

[Contract Killer]

Guys what do you think to my build? I plan to borrow poxy's rug for a tournament on march 1 but i decided to make it something different that will surprise all my opponent.

Heres my list:

4 goyf
4 delver
4 swiftspear
(12 creature)

4 fow
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 l bolt
4 gprobe
3 f bolt
2 preordain
1 ddt
(30 os)

3 s tarn
3 misty r
2 wooded f
2 wasteland
3 volc
3 trop
1 island
1 mountain
(18 land)


1 hull breach
2 pyroblast
1 a grudge
1 p needle
1 cursed totem
2 g cage
1 s ooze
1 dismember
1 krosan g
1 flusterstorm
1 negate
2 submerge
1 surgical e
1 grim lavamancer
(15 sb)


I've play test this build and it was fast to kill an opponent and once goyf is on play he/she will be shock because he might think that im a ur delver. Also theres a high chance that my opponent could sb a wrong card. And that will be a high percentage that i could win the match. I wish i can have your yes to my build and approval to the owner of the deck poxy14. Thanks and more fun of playing magic, god bless for all of us.

To be honest it looks bad. If you want to run swiftspear that bad build UR delver since young pyromancer can synergize better with swiftspear. No stifle is just horrible. Despite how dead or meh that card can be it's what separates good RUG pilots from bad pilots. It's the hardest card to use in the deck, but it can be game changers. Preordain we don't want you already running 4 probes which without young pyromancer I think is a bit eccentric.

Three forked bolt might be a bit meta gaming decision, but I could get on board with that if you expect a lot of elves, d&t or maverick. Ddt which I'm assuming is supposed to be DTT dig through time is ok I've tried it and it's not horrible, but if you run geese it can have some awkward scenarios. Dropping wasteland again seems bad. I guess since you're not playing stifle the whole mana denial plan is worst but wasteland is just so good. Daze is also much worse in this build because you don't have mana denial.

I mean your list is just so far deviated from the base standards it looks bad on paper, but who knows it might be good. I mean goose can be slow, but it sticks around where as swiftspear will die fast. Not having mana denial is a key part of our game plan and gives so much added value to daze. UR delver can run without mana denial because they are faster and have late game finishers in price of progress. I can already tell you your miracles match up will be disgusting without any stifles, snares or pierces.

If you want to look like UR delver, but have more resilient threats like goyf I would play something like this:
http://www.magiccorporation.com/gathering-decks-view-110845-ur-post-ban.html
I've played against this list and it's a really good list. Many people associate stifle with just RUG and you can definitely get people with this list. Dig through time is amazing in here with 4 probes and 4 wastelands to help feed it. TNN is the best threat you could want to help push those last points of damage.

[poxy14]

@zzregz: i do agree with contractkiller that the list posted above will have problems vs removal.decs, swiftspear though fast will have its problem vs opposing goyfs, abrupt decays, stps, tons or removals...goose though slow, will not need any of our counters to protect itself..and with your list running a small count of 12 creatures, significant clock/pressure might be a problem once you face bigger creatures/tons or removals.

my current crit config is at 13
4 delvers
4 goyfs
4 goose
1 tnn

without stifles too, dazes and pierces becomes weak. i will never play rug without 3 to 4 stifles main.
it's very good vs storm too, planeswalkers, triggers, etc... it'll do you wonders, i promise!

[BKclassic]

I see there are some other people in this thread trying to grind on Canadian Threshold on Magic Online. I just thought I would put together a little breakdown for where I am at for the current MODO metagame. I would say the meta has gotten a little bit harder since Treasure Cruise was banned but I think Canadian Threshold is once again one of the best decks in the meta.

Main Deck
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
3 Submerge
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce

Main Deck Discussion:

3 Stifle - 3 Spell Pierce

The 4th Stifle isn’t that great. Stifle is best on the play, and Canadian Threshold is already hugely advantaged when it’s on the play.The 3rd Spell Pierce, the 6th burn spell and the 3rd Gitaxian Probe are all better than the 4th Stifle.

2 Tafire - 3 Gitaxian Probe

It may seem outlandish to abandon the potential card advantage of Forked Bolt for the more consistent Tarfire. However, the potential upside of Forked Bolt is typically mitigated by various factors in the situations where Forked Bolt would be best. Elves runs Wirewood Symbiote and to lesser extent Quirion Ranger (protects Dryad Arbor) to block the 2 for 1, Forked Bolt can’t answer an end of turn Aether Vial’ing of Mother of Runes into play against Death and Taxes. Against Lingering Souls tokens, Tarfire can do a Forked Bolt impression by killing one of the two tokes after blockers to keep your Insectile Aberration alive. There are a lot of creatures in Legacy that we need to kill in short order if we want to win (Deathrire Shaman, Mother of Runes, Delver of Secrets, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant). Instant speed gives us more potential to outplay our opponent, and the Tribal boost for Tarmogoyf is more relevant when racing combo decks and makes Tarmogoyf larger than Tasigur, the Golden Fang.

Running 6 burn spells and 3 Gitaxian Probes is part of an effort to maximize our chances against blue based decks with Deathrite Shaman. BUG Delver in particular is pretty tricky match up. The BUG opponent is able to reliably kill our Tarmogoyf with Abrupt Decay where we only have burn spells against the opponent’s Tarmogoyf. Deathrite Shaman is insane against us where Nimble Mongoose is much less disruptive to our Delver opponent’s game plan. Our best bet in this match is to manage our opponents Deathrite Shamans and Delver of Secrets with burn spells and try to keep Tarmogoyfs off the battlefield with counterspells. This will result Nimble Mongoose being able to trump the board. 3 Gitaxian Probes and 6 burn gives us the best chance to accomplish this along with the 3 Submerges in the sideboard.

3 Tarmogoyf

Trimming the twelfth creature is the best move for the current metagame. Canadian Threshold’s creatures get our opponent dead reasonably quickly, but they are not very interactive compared to cards like Deathrite Shaman and Stoneforge Mystic, which have the potential to be highly disruptive to an opponent’s game plan. The 4th Tarmogoyf is cut for the 3rd Gitaxian Probe. The extra cantrip makes helps accelerate Nimble Mongoose and helps us better utilize our disruption. There is too much potential for flooding on threats with twelve creatures and Gitaxian Probe is a fantastic card for the deck, I couldn’t be happier with the change.

Sideboard Discussion:

2 Tormod’s Crypt

Replacing Grafdigger’s Cage with Tormod’s Crypt was an essential breakthrough for combating the metagame. Tormod’s Crypt is extremely effective against ANT. Hampering Cabal Ritual and preventing a Past in Flames for the low price of zero mana is enough to turn the matchup positive.
Against Elves, I already have 7 cards to bring in against Elves (3 Submerge, 2 Rough,1 Spell Pierce, 1 Flusterstorm) and 7 cards to bring out (4 Daze, 3 Stifle). Where I have 5 Spell Pierce effects post board, Grafdigger’s Cage is not needed.
Reanimator players are mostly on the Abrupt Decay plan to answer hate these days. Crypt is much better than Cage against Abrupt Decay because our opponent will lose whatever was in gis or graveyard when we activate Crypt in response to Decay. Contrary to Grafdigger's Cage, Careful Study or Entomb do very little before the Reanimator player finds the Abrupt Decay.
Tormod’s Crypt is effective against Life from the Loam froms Lands strategies, where Grafdigger’s Cage does nothing.

3 Submerge

Essential against BUG Delver as I already mentioned in my Tarfire Discussion. Having 3 Submerge is essential to keep Shardless BUG and Elves positive match ups. People occasionally play Maverick as well.

1 Sulfuric Vortex

Sulfuric Vortex is the ultimate finisher against slower blue based decks. The closest competition is Sylvan Library, but Sylvan Library has worse synergy than Sulfuric Vortex with Gitaxian Probe. Vortex is also much more of a trump card than Sylvan Library, shutting down equipment and cutting through Rest in Peace and Moat type cards. The card is also reasonable against Griselbrand. It can get the final few points in against Reanimator, especially if the opponent has cast the actual Reanimate and lost a bunch of life. Against Sneak and Show, it gives you something to put into play off Show and Tell that might win you the game.

1 Spell Pierce, 1 Flusterstorm

The second Flusterstorm was cut for the fourth Spell Pierce because of Sensei’s Divining Top, Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon are just too common. In match ups where Flusterstorm is at its best, namely Storm, they are always bringing in Defense Grid and Carpet of Flowers that we want to answer if possible. It is definitely worth hedging our bet and having the fourth Spell Pierce available in the board.

Side Board Guide:

BUG Delver:
Play: -4 Force of Will, -3 Spell Pierce, +3 Submerge, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm
Draw: -2 Daze, -2 Force of Will, -3 Spell Pierce, +3 Submerge, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm

Shardless BUG-
Play: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 Tarfire, +3 Pyroblast, +3 Submerge
Draw: -2 Daze, -2 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 Tarfire, + 3 Pyroblast, +3 Submerge

Urw Delver-
Play: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry
Draw: -2 Daze, -2 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry

Esper Deathblade-
Play: -4 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sulfuric Vortex
Draw: -2 Daze, - 2 Force of Will, -1 Spell Pierce, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

Miracles-
Play: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, -1 Wasteland, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Sulfuric Vortex, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm
Draw: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, -1 Daze, +3 Pyroblast, +1 Sulfuric Vortex, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm

Elves-
Play/Draw: -4 Daze, -3 Stifle, +3 Submerge, +2 Rough/Tumble, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm

Sneak and Show:
Play/Draw: -4 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, -1 Tarmogoyf, 3 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

Reanimator:
Play/Draw: -4 Lightning Bolt. -2 Tarfire. -1 Tarmogoyf, +2 Tormod’s Crypt +2 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Sulfuric Vortex

ANT:
Play/Draw: -1 Tarmogoyf, -3 Lightning Bolt, -2 Tarfire, +2 Tormod’s Crypt, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm

[poxy14]

@bkclassic: we're running almost the same list, and i currently like the 3 stifle built lately..i might change though my 4goyfs to 3 goyfs/1tnn since UR are not dominant lately nowadays...and i like your take on the crypts vs grafs. on your SBs i would change vortex into a cliq for more versatility. combo is just to many nowadays so the 3 pierce main will help alot instead of the snare built.

is it also dangerous on running tarfires with less goyfs vs opposing goyf decks? i would however suggest that if you'll be running tarfires, then go full goyfs for max power.

my current list:
4 delvers / 4 goose / 4 goyfs / 1 TNN (13, i always like having a significant clock on my board or on my hand)
3 stifles / 3 pierces / 1 fice / 1 tarfire / 1 forked / 4 dazes / 4fows / 4 bolts / 4 bstorms / 4 ponders (29)
18 lands (a good 2/2/2/2 split is always recommended, i play 4 wooded foothills and 4 different fetches.... foothills will represent a nonblue deck, and will get opponents caught with stifles due to this fetch config.)

[BKclassic]

@bkclassic: we're running almost the same list, and i currently like the 3 stifle built lately..i might change though my 4goyfs to 3 goyfs/1tnn since UR are not dominant lately nowadays...and i like your take on the crypts vs grafs. on your SBs i would change vortex into a cliq for more versatility. combo is just to many nowadays so the 3 pierce main will help alot instead of the snare built.

is it also dangerous on running tarfires with less goyfs vs opposing goyf decks? i would however suggest that if you'll be running tarfires, then go full goyfs for max power.

my current list:
4 delvers / 4 goose / 4 goyfs / 1 TNN (13, i always like having a significant clock on my board or on my hand)
3 stifles / 3 pierces / 1 fice / 1 tarfire / 1 forked / 4 dazes / 4fows / 4 bolts / 4 bstorms / 4 ponders (29)
18 lands (a good 2/2/2/2 split is always recommended, i play 4 wooded foothills and 4 different fetches.... foothills will represent a nonblue deck, and will get opponents caught with stifles due to this fetch config.)

On the suggestion of SB Clique, I think probably an equally good or better configuration would be -1 Flusterstorm, -1 Sulfuric Vortex, +1 Sulfur Elemental, +1 Vendilion Clique. You can bring the Clique in place of Flusterstorm against Elves so it works out great.

On Tarfire, I don't have too many problems with Tarfires and opposing Tarmogoyfs and I don't worry about running only 3 Goyf's. However, running 3 Tarmogoyfs is definitely dependant on running 3 Gitaxian Probes. The extra cantrips cause you to fine more threats. I was running 2 Gitaxian Probes and 4 Goyf's, but I was flooding on threats, not drawing enough interaction and it cost me games. Cutting a Goyf for an extra Probe has been fantastic for me. Against match ups like Death and Taxes and Miracles 11 threats can feel a bit threat light, but you can SB additional threats like more creatures or Sulfuric Vortex. However, when I made that post, the metagame was teaming with BUG Delver. Things have balanced out since then with more Young Pyromancer/Dig Through Time decks being played. Therefore I am going back to Forked Bolts over Tarfires.

[Alix444]

As some of you may now I am new to legacy, my friends and I finally scouting the local legacy meta. And I was hoping to get some help on tuning the 75 for the exact meta given:

2 Esper Deathblade
1 Jeskai Stoneblade
1-2 RUG Delver
2-3 Burn
1 Dark Maverick
1 Death and Taxes
1 Shardless BUG
1 Punishing Jund
2 Storm
1 High Tide
1 Lands
1 Miracles
1 Show and Tell

My current MD is 54 with 2 pierce 1 snare 2 Chain Lightning 1 Tarfire because of all the DRSs I will have to face. I think an argument can be made for finding room for a second snare given my meta. I don't know if I really need 2 rough // tumbles. I think 3 pyroblasts and 3 submerges makes sense. I was also thinking that life from the loam can be great. Heres what I have so far

3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Rough // Tumble
1 V Clique
1 TNN
1 Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction

[Contract Killer]

As some of you may now I am new to legacy, my friends and I finally scouting the local legacy meta. And I was hoping to get some help on tuning the 75 for the exact meta given:

2 Esper Deathblade
1 Jeskai Stoneblade
1-2 RUG Delver
2-3 Burn
1 Dark Maverick
1 Death and Taxes
1 Shardless BUG
1 Punishing Jund
2 Storm
1 High Tide
1 Lands
1 Miracles
1 Show and Tell

My current MD is 54 with 2 pierce 1 snare 2 Chain Lightning 1 Tarfire because of all the DRSs I will have to face. I think an argument can be made for finding room for a second snare given my meta. I don't know if I really need 2 rough // tumbles. I think 3 pyroblasts and 3 submerges makes sense. I was also thinking that life from the loam can be great. Heres what I have so far

3 Pyroblast
3 Submerge
1 Rough // Tumble
1 V Clique
1 TNN
1 Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Surgical Extraction

You should definitely have another artifact hate in the board if there's 5 decks running a stoneforge package either a ancient grudge or destructive revelry would fit the bill. With 4 dedicated combo decks you should have at least some number of flusterstorms 1 -2. With 3 burn decks and D&T, Dark Maverick I would play forked bolts over chain lightning. I probably would trim the tarfire for a snare since it's great against all the stoneblad variants, D&T, RUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Punishing Jund, Storm and Miracles... so more than half of the meta. Those would be the few changes I would make.

Meta gaming is always a gamble that's why I just run the most conservative list possible. I don't like to gear towards a few decks over others, but that's because my meta is very volatile. There's at least 10 people who could build any tier 1 deck.

[carefulmug]

I got to play some competitive magic for the first time in a year!

Played at a Mr. Nice Guy's tournament (Monroeville, PA) this past weekend. 24 players, 5 rounds, cut to top 8.

List included the typical 54 Canadian Threshold cards and a 3/3 split on Forked Bolts and Spell Pierce. Also, for the first time, got to play w/ Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta as my fetchlands, which I believe to be the most "correct" for the sake of misinformation. However, this was never relevant as I believe I'm recognized now as a Canadian Thresh player amongst this group, as well as the fact that I played much more aggressively this time than ever before.

My sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Pyroblast, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Dismember, 1 K. Grip, 1 Destructive Revelry, 1 Ancient Grudge, 3 Submerge, and 2 Rough//Tumble.

Faced Elves (2-1), a BG Titania brew (2-0), URB Delver w/ Tasigur and TNN (1-2), Infect (2-0), and ID'd with RG Lands.

In Top8, I faced Elves again (different player) (2-1), Shardless BUG/w (2-1), and, in the finals, the very same Elves player I faced in Round 1. This time, he 2-0'd me.

3-1-1 in Swiss, 2-1 in top8. Second place.

The meta is particularly fair, and I may well switch to 4 Forked Bolt to always have options. Against Elves I kept in all the Dazes on the play, and retained 2-3 on the Draw. I found Daze maintains its effectiveness against Elves if you're playing a heavy removal list in which it is hard for the Elves player to get moving w/out 3 or more creatures. Elves players also play very aggressively, typically tapping out every turn, particularly on games 2 and 3, when it is "correct" for us to side out Daze.

Speaking of. I found Grafdigger's Cage to be entirely useless all day, and it was brought to my attention that this is partially because Elves players are now siding out some number of Nat Orders in games 2 and 3 in anticipation of Cage.

The Spell Snare was also fairly useless, and I believe I'm going to cut the two Cage and 1 Snare for 2-3 Surgical Extraction (benefiting the Lands matchup) or Tormod's Crypt as well as 0-1 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (depending on GY hate numbers and Spell Pierce//Forked Bolt MB numbers).

My losses to UBR were both at the mercy of resolved TNN. Damn. I'm glad this card isn't more common. Granted, in one situation, I used a Pyroblast on a Delver, drew a Forked Bolt, and was at a loss when, on my opponent's following turn, he landed a TNN, so I've only myself to hold accountable for that.

Shardless seems really bad with the white sideboard, and I'm not convinced Meddling Mage is at all worth the compromised mana. My opponent is a very good player, but I watched him be unable to cast Jace due to lands being USea, Forest, Swamp, and Savannah. For a deck w/ so many UU and BB casting costs, white splash, however marginal, even with DRS, seems very risky. Anybody know the real reasoning behind this? The Mages have to be for Combo, right? And I presume the idea is Cascading into more typical hate, such as Flusterstorm, would be a miserable idea? Still, there's got to be something better and in color for them.

All in all, it was a very fun time. Nice Guy's has a very good player core, and it's always a pleasure to compete there.

[Contract Killer]

I got to play some competitive magic for the first time in a year!

Played at a Mr. Nice Guy's tournament (Monroeville, PA) this past weekend. 24 players, 5 rounds, cut to top 8.

List included the typical 54 Canadian Threshold cards and a 3/3 split on Forked Bolts and Spell Pierce. Also, for the first time, got to play w/ Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta as my fetchlands, which I believe to be the most "correct" for the sake of misinformation. However, this was never relevant as I believe I'm recognized now as a Canadian Thresh player amongst this group, as well as the fact that I played much more aggressively this time than ever before.

My sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage, 3 Pyroblast, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Dismember, 1 K. Grip, 1 Destructive Revelry, 1 Ancient Grudge, 3 Submerge, and 2 Rough//Tumble.

Faced Elves (2-1), a BG Titania brew (2-0), URB Delver w/ Tasigur and TNN (1-2), Infect (2-0), and ID'd with RG Lands.

In Top8, I faced Elves again (different player) (2-1), Shardless BUG/w (2-1), and, in the finals, the very same Elves player I faced in Round 1. This time, he 2-0'd me.

3-1-1 in Swiss, 2-1 in top8. Second place.

The meta is particularly fair, and I may well switch to 4 Forked Bolt to always have options. Against Elves I kept in all the Dazes on the play, and retained 2-3 on the Draw. I found Daze maintains its effectiveness against Elves if you're playing a heavy removal list in which it is hard for the Elves player to get moving w/out 3 or more creatures. Elves players also play very aggressively, typically tapping out every turn, particularly on games 2 and 3, when it is "correct" for us to side out Daze.

Speaking of. I found Grafdigger's Cage to be entirely useless all day, and it was brought to my attention that this is partially because Elves players are now siding out some number of Nat Orders in games 2 and 3 in anticipation of Cage.

The Spell Snare was also fairly useless, and I believe I'm going to cut the two Cage and 1 Snare for 2-3 Surgical Extraction (benefiting the Lands matchup) or Tormod's Crypt as well as 0-1 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (depending on GY hate numbers and Spell Pierce//Forked Bolt MB numbers).

My losses to UBR were both at the mercy of resolved TNN. Damn. I'm glad this card isn't more common. Granted, in one situation, I used a Pyroblast on a Delver, drew a Forked Bolt, and was at a loss when, on my opponent's following turn, he landed a TNN, so I've only myself to hold accountable for that.

Shardless seems really bad with the white sideboard, and I'm not convinced Meddling Mage is at all worth the compromised mana. My opponent is a very good player, but I watched him be unable to cast Jace due to lands being USea, Forest, Swamp, and Savannah. For a deck w/ so many UU and BB casting costs, white splash, however marginal, even with DRS, seems very risky. Anybody know the real reasoning behind this? The Mages have to be for Combo, right? And I presume the idea is Cascading into more typical hate, such as Flusterstorm, would be a miserable idea? Still, there's got to be something better and in color for them.

All in all, it was a very fun time. Nice Guy's has a very good player core, and it's always a pleasure to compete there.

Congrats man that's definitely an interesting list. I've actually somewhat lost faith in spell pierce it's been a while since it has actually done anything for me, but maybe that's just bad luck or something. The board is also interesting if you're running a snare and dismember presumably to deal with goyfs/tasigur then why not move them to maindeck or did you just expect a lot of elves and other combo decks to justify the 7th burn spell and the 3rd pierce. Another thing why 3 artifact/enchantment hate spells? I usually run 2 at most with something like a grudge k-grip split or revelry over grudge.

Despite elves possibly cutting some NOs post board I think Cage is worthwhile. It blanks their 4 GSZ which they definitely get a lot of value for plus it's like DRS 5 - 8 if it's in the opener against us. I've also never had daze be that good especially on the draw, but that's probably just a testament to you running 1 more forked bolt which really helps in that match up.

I wouldn't get to down on the UBR play where you pyroblasted the delver. If you can shoot it on your turn after they play it then you probably should. It allows you to play around them having pierce and it makes our daze live because they would be tapped out to make sure it resolves.

The splash of white in shardless from what I understand is strictly for combo matches. Shardless is a very well rounded deck except it could be better against combo. They usually have something like a few hand disruption spells, a hymn or 2 and maybe 2 or 3 forces tops. Surprisingly force is kind of hard for them to play just due to their blue count I guess or something like that. Adding meddling mage out of the board has got to help a lot especially against combo where their mana won't be disrupted. It does make their fair matches worse so I think it doesn't do much since they're just swapping percentages between match ups.

I just went 3/1 at a local weekly only losing to infect round 1. I might write up a short tournament report in a while, but to be honest I luck sacked my way through the whole thing. Half of my keeps were sketchy at best and pulled most of them out due to top decking a threat when I needed, to round out the hand that was mainly just disruption to start out with.

[sea]

The Spell Snare was also fairly useless, and I believe I'm going to cut the two Cage and 1 Snare for 2-3 Surgical Extraction (benefiting the Lands matchup) or Tormod's Crypt as well as 0-1 Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm (depending on GY hate numbers and Spell Pierce//Forked Bolt MB numbers).


Congrats on your tourney finish.

Long time goose player here. I agree that graffdiggers is mostly useless in most matchups. Its really there for reanimator and dredge, and only has some side benefits against elves. I wouldnt remove it, as dredge can be a realllly difficult matchup without it. that said, I used to run 2 in my board and have gone down to 1. I replaced the one with a scavenging ooze, and its become a rockstar slot. Ooze is really good in those matchups where you just want another creature, and doubles as a life gain sideboard card against decks like burn, and now to a lesser extent, u/r delver. I urge you to give him a shot.

[carefulmug]

Congrats man that's definitely an interesting list. I've actually somewhat lost faith in spell pierce it's been a while since it has actually done anything for me, but maybe that's just bad luck or something. The board is also interesting if you're running a snare and dismember presumably to deal with goyfs/tasigur then why not move them to maindeck or did you just expect a lot of elves and other combo decks to justify the 7th burn spell and the 3rd pierce. Another thing why 3 artifact/enchantment hate spells? I usually run 2 at most with something like a grudge k-grip split or revelry over grudge.

Despite elves possibly cutting some NOs post board I think Cage is worthwhile. It blanks their 4 GSZ which they definitely get a lot of value for plus it's like DRS 5 - 8 if it's in the opener against us. I've also never had daze be that good especially on the draw, but that's probably just a testament to you running 1 more forked bolt which really helps in that match up.

I wouldn't get to down on the UBR play where you pyroblasted the delver. If you can shoot it on your turn after they play it then you probably should. It allows you to play around them having pierce and it makes our daze live because they would be tapped out to make sure it resolves.

The splash of white in shardless from what I understand is strictly for combo matches. Shardless is a very well rounded deck except it could be better against combo. They usually have something like a few hand disruption spells, a hymn or 2 and maybe 2 or 3 forces tops. Surprisingly force is kind of hard for them to play just due to their blue count I guess or something like that. Adding meddling mage out of the board has got to help a lot especially against combo where their mana won't be disrupted. It does make their fair matches worse so I think it doesn't do much since they're just swapping percentages between match ups.

I just went 3/1 at a local weekly only losing to infect round 1. I might write up a short tournament report in a while, but to be honest I luck sacked my way through the whole thing. Half of my keeps were sketchy at best and pulled most of them out due to top decking a threat when I needed, to round out the hand that was mainly just disruption to start out with.


I switched to 4 Forked Bolt/2 Spell Pierce (A FB variation on the 8Bolt list) when I saw the first SCG after the banning of Treasure Cruise had 11 Elves and 9 D&T decks in day 2 (by far the two highest numbers of decks). Along with what I'd found to be a slightly difficult matchup with BUG Delver and Shardless, (DRS, Delver, Confidant) I figured now was the time for an overload of removal, and I will likely switch back to this split.

The Dismember was additional removal, yes, and instant speed at that, and came in against Elves as much as BUG. It's just bolt #9 that can incidentally kill a big creature...But these big creatures are typically what we want to reserve our counterspells for, anyway. Nice Guy's traditionally has a lot of Show and Tell, Lands, and Miracles players, and Dismember//Snare main would have been relatively dead against them in the main. As it was, Snare was never useful, at least not as a singleton.

I might trim 1 of the artifact//enchantment hate cards. I wanted to test the trifecta out to see which pieces were really most useful. Alas, in the matchups I had, none of them really came in, but had I faced, say, the UB Tezzeret or Metalworker deck in the room, all three would have been ideal.

And the Cages were lackluster because, it seemed, if I didn't have it in my opener, it just never did anything. I really would have rather had an additional removal spell each time. Cage is crap when both players are on topdeck, or when they already have a Symbiote//Visionary or Ranger//Arbor combo setup. At this point, removal seems far more important. Edit: Surgical Extraction is definitely the GY hate of choice in my mind right now because of its versatility.

The UBR Delver matchup w/ the Pyroblast on Delver really was a bad choice. It was a reactionary play, when, most times, that Pyroblast is sided in for their TNNs and should thus be reserved for their TNNs, particularly if you're playing 7-8 Bolt and siding in a Dismember. I was in double digits on life total; I could have taken a few hits from the Delver while I looked for more removal. Delver dies to everything, whereas TNN does not.

Endnote: you say you lucksacked into threats? I don't think there's actually anything wrong with this. Oftentimes we're led to believe we always must have a hand with a threat in it...but if you have an appropriate (objectively speaking) spread of cantrips and disruption, I don't believe there is anything wrong with blanking your opponent's first couple turns while you ponder and brainstorm for a threat. It's ideal to put pressure on our opponent from turn one, forcing them to play into daze and stifle and waste, but many times--in my own experience--it's just as well to draw and play a planned Delver, a threshed Goose, or a large Goyf on turn 3 when they may have only dealt 1-4 dmg on their own at that point had we played them early.

My MB from here will likely be the 54 Can Thresh, 4 Forked Bolt, 2 Spell Pierce, along with a SB of something like:

3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Destructive Revelry

[poxy14]

My MB from here will likely be the 54 Can Thresh, 4 Forked Bolt, 2 Spell Pierce, along with a SB of something like:

3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
2 Rough//Tumble
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Destructive Revelry

Simple and just straight up solutions, i like your configuration! though i always love versatility..
instead of 4 forked main, i would rather use 2 forked / 1 fice (can react instantly, up'ping my blue count still and can tap bigger beasts eot for more tempo)
im on a 3 pierce main, lots of unfair decks here in my meta, anytime i dont have use for them...it'll be fow pitched.

im also on the 3gyhate/ 3 artifact hate sb config.. we certainly hate dredge, reanimators, batterskulls, so im loading it up on those matchups. my choices varies and can be of help in other matchups...

3 artifact hate (1 grduge / 1 revelry / 1 needle (versatile card!)
3 gy hate (1 tormods (THANKS CONTRACTKILLER! it's been doin well in my playtests so far!) 1 graf / 1 surgical (versatile card!)
3 pyroblasts
2 submerges 1 dismember (versatile card!)
2 roughs
1 vcliq

as much as i would want SCOOZE in the sb, reanimators are really problematic matchup and it is just too slow vs them.
last saturday, during a playtest i was 5-0 vs SnT (without sideboards) and the 3 pierces main really felt good, i always have some wall whenever he tries comboing off, with numerous pierces too i can counter random brainstorms and ponders once in while to slow his process and have backup fows for Show any time it shows : )

[Alix444]

Has anyone tried playing a snapcaster mage as tarmogoyf number 4?

[Contract Killer]

Has anyone tried playing a snapcaster mage as tarmogoyf number 4?

I think people tried it a long time ago back when the most popular decks were rug delver, esper stoneblade and maverick. The issue is he's far to mana intensive for RUG. We have trouble consistently getting to 3 mana and even at 3 mana he can get blown out by daze. It's not outside of the realm of possibilities and you could try it as a singleton. I just wouldn't hold my breath hoping he'll do the impossible.

On another note this does go nicely with a brew I've been working on what do you guys think of this list:
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants/Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

Artifact
3 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Vendilion Clique

One of my fellow RUG players was talking about a brew of RUG Delver with vial in it. It's definitely interesting to say the least. It has a lot of similar qualities as RUG, but with vial the mana constrictions are not nearly as evident. It also allows RUG to effectively play Snapcaster mage.

I've tried it out a bit and it has done some awesome things. I would say it's at the very least on par with traditional RUG Delver.

[Alix444]

My first reaction is that vial really hurts our motto of "no one top decks action better than us." But I guess its pretty dreamy to hold up stifle mana or tap out looking for disruption and be able to progress our board state!

[poxy14]

I've tried it out a bit and it has done some awesome things. I would say it's at the very least on par with traditional RUG Delver.

It's always nice to see innovations, whether new brews or sideboard techs. How's it goin vs combo decks? i see the 0-pierce built here main, though you have lots of helpers on the side..

[Isre Morn]

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland



How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

[Alix444]

How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

If someone forced me to play 4 probes main, I would probably cut a fetch and a forked bolt.

[Contract Killer]

My first reaction is that vial really hurts our motto of "no one top decks action better than us." But I guess its pretty dreamy to hold up stifle mana or tap out looking for disruption and be able to progress our board state!

People say RUG has good top decks, but that's kind of misleading. It will seem like we have good top decks, but only when we're ahead. If we haven't gotten a wasteland or stifle in then top decking a daze is usually bad. I will admit top decking an aether vial mid to late game does feel bad, but I honestly don't think it's worse than a stifle that may or may not do something.

Being able to hold up countermagic and progress our boardstate is really amazing enough so I think running a 4th vial over the 3rd snapcaster might be better.


It's always nice to see innovations, whether new brews or sideboard techs. How's it goin vs combo decks? i see the 0-pierce built here main, though you have lots of helpers on the side..

I haven't really had much testing with this list yet aside from a handful of games on cockatrice (which I don't really consider testing). I'm planning to proxy it up tomorrow and take it to one of my local tournaments to test it in-between rounds and stuff.

Oddly enough I'm not sure if pierce is really that good as of late. There seems to have been a decline of SnT variants which were the decks that it was the best against I think. Every time I've had pierce against storm they have perfect information off of probe, therapy or duress and can play around it easily. Those are the two main combo decks and neither pierce or snare excels better than the other in both match ups. Snare though does excel in utility against the rest of the meta so that's mainly why I chose it over pierce. It's definitely something to experiment with though.


How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

17 lands isn't horrible most of the time especially if you have vial. I've tried shaving down to 17 lands and running 3 or more probes and there are definitely worse things you can do. I mean I think if you're going to run that many probes expect to play very tight if you want to win. There's a reason why some of the most successful builds of RUG run probe because the information can lead to total blow outs. My issue with it is I've had the information, but it didn't do anything from stopping the opponent playing Lili the next turn around daze. I think the added information helps in the early game, but becomes less useful to dead mid or late when you need silver bullets in snare, pierce and forked bolt to answer problems.

[Contract Killer]

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

[keys]

Because of 2-of FoW? Could be a metagame call.

Edit: Except that Omni-Tell and Storm both feature in the T8...:confused:

[Isre Morn]

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE
Because of 2-of FoW? Could be a metagame call.
Edit: Except that Omni-Tell and Storm both feature in the T8...:confused:
Hmm... or he only had 2 FoW to play with and had no one that could lend him any... But it could really to be a very aggressive metagame call as keys already mentioned... The list is some kind of versatile at first sight... what disturbs a bit is the FoW hole and the 10 Bolts MD (whenever I wanted to test Izzet Charm, a voice in my head suddenly said: "no, just forget about it, too clunky") Also 4 artifact hate (2x artifact mutation!) in the SB shut down every stoneforge and other artifact builds... I guess the 2x Divert were also metagame call for BGx variants... but in that case I'd only play 1 copy. All in all very light on combo hate...


If someone forced me to play 4 probes main, I would probably cut a fetch and a forked bolt.

O17 lands isn't horrible most of the time especially if you have vial. I've tried shaving down to 17 lands and running 3 or more probes and there are definitely worse things you can do. I mean I think if you're going to run that many probes expect to play very tight if you want to win. There's a reason why some of the most successful builds of RUG run probe because the information can lead to total blow outs. My issue with it is I've had the information, but it didn't do anything from stopping the opponent playing Lili the next turn around daze. I think the added information helps in the early game, but becomes less useful to dead mid or late when you need silver bullets in snare, pierce and forked bolt to answer problems.

Yeah, it was my intention to have as much information as possible in the early game steps (especially in case of holding up stife against potential 1 land handers), 2 probes were too less for this kind of playstyle. But now I'm captured again, because I know I would miss my snares too much :/ my meta is pretty fair (mostly D&T and Maverick / Dark Maverick, then MUD, 12Post, Merfolk, Miracles, Nic Fit, Elves, Reanimator). I also don't wanna miss any forked bolt i can get for stoneforge / mother / Shaman / Talia etc. etc. Gee... good bye again Probes ^^

[Prontus]

Hi guys. First post here :D. I'm not new to legacy but to this deck. I usually play elves, but my local meta is shifting to a bad state for the little green warriors. The thing i want to ask you is:

I have all the cards for some delver brews (fows, stifle, daze, wastes,etc) but im lacking duals (only 2 tropical, 2 bayou and 1 taiga)

What could you recommend me to do?:
-Play RUG with 1 taiga and 1 UR shockland
-Play BUG with 2 bayous and maybe droping daze for hymn and thoughtseize? (or play less copies)
-Play UG delver and change bolts for something else like vapor snag or more counters?

Thanks for your time :)

[Mr. Crane]

Hi guys. First post here :D. I'm not new to legacy but to this deck. I usually play elves, but my local meta is shifting to a bad state for the little green warriors. The thing i want to ask you is:

I have all the cards for some delver brews (fows, stifle, daze, wastes,etc) but im lacking duals (only 2 tropical, 2 bayou and 1 taiga)

What could you recommend me to do?:
-Play RUG with 1 taiga and 1 UR shockland
-Play BUG with 2 bayous and maybe droping daze for hymn and thoughtseize? (or play less copies)
-Play UG delver and change bolts for something else like vapor snag or more counters?

Thanks for your time :)

Play BUG, rug dont have DRS.
need 6dual islands to daze.
Maybe 5 tropical/volcanic, 1 taiga/shockland ? ok...
2 tropicals only, 33% of colored lands? suicide...

[FoolofaTook]

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

I don't know if the list is good or not but he does have 10 ways to deal with a DRS or Insectile Aberration by turn 2. He's also got Elves and D&T better handled than a typical RUG Delver list. I'm guessing it was a metagame call.

[Contract Killer]

I don't know if the list is good or not but he does have 10 ways to deal with a DRS or Insectile Aberration by turn 2. He's also got Elves and D&T better handled than a typical RUG Delver list. I'm guessing it was a metagame call.

I guess but despite having ways to deal with DRS and Delver that still leaves too many openings for the opponent to jam cards we must answer if possible aka goyf or TNN. I'll give it to him that he's definitely made some of our worse match ups better, but at the cost of losing percentages across the board to combo and most other fair decks. It just seems so bad and I can't really make heads or tails of it. Even as a meta call that's a bit extreme.

[QUOTE=haloquaero;870254]Hmm... or he only had 2 FoW to play with and had no one that could lend him any... But it could really to be a very aggressive metagame call as keys already mentioned... The list is some kind of versatile at first sight... what disturbs a bit is the FoW hole and the 10 Bolts MD (whenever I wanted to test Izzet Charm, a voice in my head suddenly said: "no, just forget about it, too clunky") Also 4 artifact hate (2x artifact mutation!) in the SB shut down every stoneforge and other artifact builds... I guess the 2x Divert were also metagame call for BGx variants... but in that case I'd only play 1 copy. All in all very light on combo hate...QUOTE]

Not being able to find forces that I would accept as a possible answer seeing as it's the only sane one lols. Izzet charm really isn't that bad to test in the flex spots if you wanted to. It does a lot of what we want and offers a similar flexibility that Fire//Ice has.
Fire//Ice is added removal for whatever little threats they have or can tap down a fatty to maybe sneak by a win. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG). If you want to max out on overall hate for combo and midrange I would run it. You would just need snares or Fire//Ice (another card I've never liked in RUG) in the other flex spots for getting around goyfs or other fatties.

[FoolofaTook]

Fire//Ice is added removal for whatever little threats they have or can tap down a fatty to maybe sneak by a win. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG). If you want to max out on overall hate for combo and midrange I would run it. You would just need snares or Fire//Ice (another card I've never liked in RUG) in the other flex spots for getting around goyfs or other fatties.

Here are the things that Fire//Ice does:

1. Kills a 2 toughness creature on turn 2.
2. Kills 2 1 toughness creatures on turn 2.
3. Taps down a land during the opponent's upkeep early on to keep the pressure on.
4. Taps Goyf, the germ token, Marit Lage, etc, when you need to push through for the last few points of damage.
5. Does 2 damage to the dome when that's what you need.

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

[poxy14]

Here are the things that Fire//Ice does:

1. Kills a 2 toughness creature on turn 2.
2. Kills 2 1 toughness creatures on turn 2.
3. Taps down a land during the opponent's upkeep early on to keep the pressure on.
4. Taps Goyf, the germ token, Marit Lage, etc, when you need to push through for the last few points of damage.
5. Does 2 damage to the dome when that's what you need.

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

6. pitches to FOW, and is never dead vs combo that carries xanthids..

[FoolofaTook]

6. pitches to FOW, and is never dead vs combo that carries xanthids..

Yeah, that too although it's a useful enough card that it's not an easy pitch unless the alternative is Brainstorm or the Delver you want to play on your turn.

I'm wondering if Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt don't both belong in the flex 6? Maybe 2 Spell Pierce , 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Fire//Ice? Elves and D&T both become more manageable with 4 mini-sweepers in the main list and it's two extra ways to get rid of DRS, SFM and Insectile Aberration. Fire//Ice also kills Metalworker, which can be very problematic if MUD has Chalice@1. Admittedly if MUD lands Chalice@1 it's like a 90% loss anyway.

[Isre Morn]

I'm wondering if Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt don't both belong in the flex 6? Maybe 2 Spell Pierce , 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Fire//Ice? Elves and D&T both become more manageable with 4 mini-sweepers in the main list and it's two extra ways to get rid of DRS, SFM and Insectile Aberration. Fire//Ice also kills Metalworker, which can be very problematic if MUD has Chalice@1. Admittedly if MUD lands Chalice@1 it's like a 90% loss anyway.

Oh, I really really often want to have those bolts 7 and 8 in my hands g1 when I'm playing against Elves, Dark Maverick and D&T in my lgs. Sometimes my problem is a resolved Thalia and therefore a Fire (like Rough in g2 and 3) would cost 3 mana, which sometimes is difficult to reach against them for me. So keeping the Snares in the 2 remaining flex spots seems like a better alternative for me, especially in case for RIP postboard. Fire is definately better against Elves as Snare, but sometimes I get to hit a Zenit on 1, Visionaries or Ooze in g2 and 3 with it.

I also often play against MUD and I'm still searching for the right way to play right and tight against it. But here again Snare in the 2 remaining flex spots seems more attractive for me because it can hit Chalice on 1, Monolith, Defense Grid and Ratched Bomb. Nevertheless Metal Worker HAS to die asap if it couldn't get countered and I definately see your point for Fire//Ice in all your scenarios (especially against DRS / Insectile Aberration).


Izzet charm really isn't that bad to test in the flex spots if you wanted to. It does a lot of what we want and offers a similar flexibility that Fire//Ice has. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG)

The problem I have with Izzet Charm is that you can't aim the opponents face, you can't split the damage, and you pierce for the cost of :u::r:. Good old Counterspell seems like a better option for me in this way. It's also not worth using a pseudo thought scour effect for :u::r: imo. Like Fire//Ice it's also harder to cast if Thalia or a Lodestone Golem entered the battlefield - which in my case happens on-again-off-again.

[Einherjer]

Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to acquire the skill set to pilot RUG Delver properly. And I hate it if people that do not know the deck inside and out build decks I just threw together a pile that is supposed to be as generic as possible, without adapting any special cards from other players. So I tried to build a very generic list without too much spice. Let me know what you think.

And would anybody be so kind as to let me know what the most important points of discussions are, atm?

Btw, I also plan on streaming my learning process with RUG Delver as soon as next week.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble


Greetings

[Blitzkreuz]

I think thats a good standard Rug list, the only thing which I dont like are the 2 dismember , but that is a personal preference, I tried em and they didnt work for me. I use 2 Forked Bolt instead.

As far as discussions go, there are no big ones, I think. A few posts earlier there was someone asking for experience with a 1 of Snapcaster instead of the 4th goyf, but that's really all.

[Niggurath]

Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to acquire the skill set to pilot RUG Delver properly. And I hate it if people that do not know the deck inside and out build decks I just threw together a pile that is supposed to be as generic as possible, without adapting any special cards from other players. So I tried to build a very generic list without too much spice. Let me know what you think.

And would anybody be so kind as to let me know what the most important points of discussions are, atm?

Btw, I also plan on streaming my learning process with RUG Delver as soon as next week.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble


Greetings

Hey! Well, I would suggest these changes:

-2 Dismember +2 Forked Bolt, as has been already said. Forked Bolt sometimes can 2x1, it's great against Deathrite and Stoneforge, and it won't cost you life.
-1 Spell Snare +1 Spell Pierce / -2 Spell Snare +1 Spell Pierce +1 Fire-Ice. I've tested 1 or 2 Spell Snare at maindeck, but they are a dead card most of the time in my experience. Most times you'll draw them when your opp has already landed his Tarmo, Stoneforge, etc. Still, playing 1 at maindeck can be ok IMO.

Your sideboard looks sweet.

[sea]

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

i used to run one and took it out when i lost a couple of games where my opponent was at 2 or less life and i had 1 mana or 2 mana while a thassa was in play. in hindsight, the ice is usually about as relevant as the extra mana causes problems. im pretty bitter about those losses though.

[echofish]

I'm currently playing 3 Hooting Mandrills instead of 4 Goose and it's working great. It can't be decayed or bolted and tramples over True-Name and Mother. I have no problem casting it and it usually comes into play on turn 3. I have Sylvan Library in sideboard to bring in against decks with plows, but considering maindecking it. Anyone else tried this insane ape?

[Alix444]

Ya but he still dies to some other popular removal, and even though T1 Goose is not very impressive at times it is still much better Mandrills in hands like man/goose, bolt, goyf, daze, wasteland, tarn, ponder for instance, and finally a very minor point is the obvious slight non-bo with goyf.

[Plague Sliver]

Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to acquire the skill set to pilot RUG Delver properly. And I hate it if people that do not know the deck inside and out build decks I just threw together a pile that is supposed to be as generic as possible, without adapting any special cards from other players. So I tried to build a very generic list without too much spice. Let me know what you think.

And would anybody be so kind as to let me know what the most important points of discussions are, atm?

Btw, I also plan on streaming my learning process with RUG Delver as soon as next week.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble


Greetings

Really cool to see you dip into the Canadian Thresh pool. I don't play the deck much, but watching competent pilots play RUG is a joy. I also assume you're in a super combo-heavy meta, where this deck shines.

I would second what others have said about running Forked Bolt instead of Dismember. Life loss is still relevant, and even in Goyf vs. Goyf situations the Bolt can do wonders.

Rough // Tumble is really really good as a one-sided Pyroclasm, glad to see you're running it.

[Contract Killer]

Here are the things that Fire//Ice does:

1. Kills a 2 toughness creature on turn 2.
2. Kills 2 1 toughness creatures on turn 2.
3. Taps down a land during the opponent's upkeep early on to keep the pressure on.
4. Taps Goyf, the germ token, Marit Lage, etc, when you need to push through for the last few points of damage.
5. Does 2 damage to the dome when that's what you need.

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

These are all the great flexibilities that Fire//Ice offers, but the reason you said at the end is exactly the reason why I find it bad. Turn one threats that the opponent plays ie Deathrite, Delver, Mother and to some extent Glistener Elf are all threats that are too high risk to let untap. It's not that it's a bad card I just find it too slow and mana intensive when looking at what we're having to go up against:

Deathrite - If the opponent untaps with this our daze and stifle plan becomes significantly worse in addition it helps them ramp into really good threats that we can't let resolve. If they're brazen enough to jam something like a turn 2 Liliana or TNN and we don't have either force, daze, or if they have their own then it's pretty much game over. I would say this one threat alone makes forked bolt more relevant as a card since it answers it turn 1.

Delver - If they get to flip delver for starters it's 3dmg that we could have avoided. Secondly, if they untap then our daze again becomes worse in terms of being able to back up our removal and make sure their delver hits the bin. It also leaves them more outs with having pierce .

Mother - This one's fairly obvious.

Glistener Elf - Corner case combo deck, but still if their glistener elf tables then we're in a very bad position because they have what Force, daze, pierce and vines to protect it with now.

Fire//Ice more or less offers you better mid to late game answer for larger threats. As the game progresses and the board state starts to fall out of our favor Ice can help tap down their attacker at the last second when they think they're going to win the race. In addition it not only can add a turn to their clock it also does what we want forked bolt for if worst comes to worst which is to have our goyf beat there's. All this considered it boils down to do you want more flexibility in the later stages of the game or excel in the early stages which is what we're already poised to do.


6. pitches to FOW, and is never dead vs combo that carries xanthids..
This is corner case, but it's definitely one of the major upsides.


Yeah, that too although it's a useful enough card that it's not an easy pitch unless the alternative is Brainstorm or the Delver you want to play on your turn.

I'm wondering if Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt don't both belong in the flex 6? Maybe 2 Spell Pierce , 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Fire//Ice? Elves and D&T both become more manageable with 4 mini-sweepers in the main list and it's two extra ways to get rid of DRS, SFM and Insectile Aberration. Fire//Ice also kills Metalworker, which can be very problematic if MUD has Chalice@1. Admittedly if MUD lands Chalice@1 it's like a 90% loss anyway.

I find Spell snare too good to not play at least as a 2 of. Elves and D&T are some of our worst match ups and unless you expect a lot of them then I wouldn't hedge against them. Snare hits more or less 2/3s of the meta and just about each deck there's some high threat level card it impacts:
Goyf
Thalia
Stoneforge Mystic
Jitte
Snapcaster Mage
Young Pyromancer
Baleful Strix
Eidolon and Price
Counterbalance
Infernal Tutor

All those cards are either in most tempo/aggro, Miracles, midrange stoneblade lists and it's a hard counter against one of the best combo decks. I mean a card that impacts that much of the meta is very versatile on that fact alone especially seeing as each card it hits is an important cog in the opponents deck.

That being said I do like the idea of having 8 removal spells 4 of which being "mini sweepers". When I was running 8 bolt rug it was nice to know no turn 1 threat usually lived past that first turn and this embraces that consistency. I would suggest trying 2 snare / 2 forked bolt / 2 fire//Ice. It keeps the minimum amount of added 1 mana answers for early threats and combines it with more versatility as the game goes on. In addition except for miracles during the early turns and some delver mirrors spell pierce has been less then amazing for me. Most Storm decks seem to be able to play around it with perfect information and stoneblade decks tend to never have high impact spells that run into it.

I would also like to make a PSA Aether Vial in more or less stock RUG Delver is bad lols. I want it to be good, but it's not. It's just too cute/slow. It had it's moments making some threat heavy hands very lethal, but for the most part it just seemed clunky at best. I was hoping it would make snapcaster a part of the family it desperately longs to be in, but it didn't lols. I will say this it did allow for some very tilting responses of vialing in snapcaster and doing something degenerate like flashing back a forked bolt killing two glistener elves.

[zerzab11]

Although it has already been one month I enjoyed testing and slamming Canadian again @ a local tournament. After Controldecks, Canadian has and will always be a special love for me.

I think Canadian really needs Spell Snare today, as it's such an amazing Tempo Card, doing all the things I don't need to say and helping handling threats 1:1. It is the best card to hold otD against most decks imo.

The second thing I want to adress shortly is Sylvan Library. I think Canadian hast to be the aggressive deck against most MUs to be competitive. This means a card that can refuel is needed enourmously. There have been so many iterations, from Dig, over Vial, to Snapcaster and Loam. For me the good old library is by far the strongest and most underplayed Card of those.
Ofc the maindeck inclusion means no Probe, and Dismember for me. There the SB should help out.

For reference, this is what I was playing (SB could be adjusted to the expected meta)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt
1 Counterspell
4 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Null Rod
2 Submerge


A maindeck construction along those lines, seems to be one of the strongest possibilities to play this deck atm.
Would be glad to discuss some of the points I've made.

Greetings

[sea]

I find Spell snare too good to not play at least as a 2 of. Elves and D&T are some of our worst match ups

I agree with your take on snare, but elves is NOT one of our worst matchups. I would call it a favorable matchup.

[Zombie]

I agree with your take on snare, but elves is NOT one of our worst matchups. I would call it a favorable matchup.

I'd say it's probably pretty even, tilting on one side or another depending on build (Oozes/WRP, amount of burn), and a pretty fragile matchup (who has more broken lands) where small edges spiral out of control very fast.

[Tormod]

I agree with your take on snare, but elves is NOT one of our worst matchups. I would call it a favorable matchup.

Just plain wrong.

[Contract Killer]

I agree with your take on snare, but elves is NOT one of our worst matchups. I would call it a favorable matchup.

No it's definitely up there in one of our worst match ups. The only decks that are arguably worse for us are Lands (I would say this one is almost unwinnable), D&T (on par with elves if not worse), Shardless BUG (winnable, but still a very hard MU).

I mean on the draw our dazes may as well be completely dead and same with stifle. Even more so then other MUs where daze and stifle lose value here they're completely dead. Stifle does absolutely nothing unless your otp and hit a fetch turn 1 or 2 and otd we're usually busy bolting their turn 1 dork or cantripping for a bolt. Both Goyf and Goose may as well be nonexistent seeing as they have 8 ways to block bounce and the ground just gets stalled.

The only ways elves becomes a positive MU in my opinion is if we're OTP and have a solid delver hand with daze for their turn 1 threat followed by a bolt for their second threat turn 2. I just played the MU last night and punted game 1 really hard.

I wasn't paying attention to graveyard count swing in with goose, goyf and delver (he's at 5) he blocks goyf and then blocks goose with DRS and proceeds to use two additional untap effects to shrink my graveyard from 9 to 6 and then DRS ate goose. I had drawn Waste and his cradle was tapped so when I swung in I thought him not having the information that cradle would get destroyed might change how he chump blocked ie throwing some guys under the bus then tap cradle next turn and gain 6 or something. I just didn't think about the fact that waste would be another card in the bin and he had 3 ways to eat cards from my bin. He went to 2 but was able to combo off next turn so I don't think it really would have mattered. He had 1 nettle sentinel and proceeded to glimpse into another plus a heritage druid with 2 bounce effects so the chances of him bricking were very low.

Game 2 if I remember right I only had a goose and he had DRS + 2 nettle senitnels and just went on the beat down plan followed by a craterhoof off of NO which got stifled but still a 5/5 haste trumps a goose lol.

I mean in terms of polar opposite decks elves would be exactly that when compared to RUG delver. We want to use mana denial with cheap counters and trade cards 1 for 1. They on the other hand have absurd amounts of mana and lots of card advantage between GSZ, Visionary and DRS + untap effects. Boarding gets a bit better with Rough, Submerge (not that good here IMO), cage and maybe something like Envelop or at least replacing pierces with flusterstorms if you don't have anything better to side in after the previous cards state.

There's also the depressing fact that elves is the better deck for being OTP. If we lose game 1 even if we win game 2 with them OTP game 3 is still very hard because they add in Decays to deal with our best threat against them and they just don't care about goyf or goose.

[Contract Killer]

Although it has already been one month I enjoyed testing and slamming Canadian again @ a local tournament. After Controldecks, Canadian has and will always be a special love for me.

I think Canadian really needs Spell Snare today, as it's such an amazing Tempo Card, doing all the things I don't need to say and helping handling threats 1:1. It is the best card to hold otD against most decks imo.

The second thing I want to adress shortly is Sylvan Library. I think Canadian hast to be the aggressive deck against most MUs to be competitive. This means a card that can refuel is needed enourmously. There have been so many iterations, from Dig, over Vial, to Snapcaster and Loam. For me the good old library is by far the strongest and most underplayed Card of those.
Ofc the maindeck inclusion means no Probe, and Dismember for me. There the SB should help out.

For reference, this is what I was playing (SB could be adjusted to the expected meta)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt
1 Counterspell
4 Ponder

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Null Rod
2 Submerge


A maindeck construction along those lines, seems to be one of the strongest possibilities to play this deck atm.
Would be glad to discuss some of the points I've made.

Greetings

I would definitely agree that the best CA tool for RUG is Sylvan, but I'm still not sure if it's good enough for MD. The main issue is it doesn't do anything the turn it hits the table and tapping out (more or less most of the time) for something that doesn't do anything and can just get decayed seems really bad tempo. I've tried shaving the 4th goyf for a sylvan and it works, but in the match ups where we want goyf ie other goyf decks or burn it's really depressing drawing that when they have their goyf on the table lols. All the more reason that if I did play it I think I would keep it as a 1 of since we never want to draw 2 and we have enough cantrips to find it if we really want to.

Counterspell isn't horrible I've heard arguments for it as a singleton and you'll definitely get people. Getting to 2 mana is pretty easy and most of the time people will try to play around daze or pierce and then run into snare, force or in this case counterspell. I would actually think this might be better than the 2nd pierce in a split of 2 snare, 2 pierce, 2 forked bolt.

Yeah I really like stifle also for the fact that many people play really bad against RUG imo or at least too cautiously trying to play around everything. This also leads to them holding their 2 drops for turn 3 in preparation to play around daze and then they run into snare and not only is the threat countered, but they played sub optimally the previous turn playing out another 1 drop or durdling with a cantrip.

[FoolofaTook]

If I was going to pull 2 spells for 2 Wooded Foothills what would be the best candidates?

I've had terrible mulligan luck in 3 of the last 4 competitions I have taken CT too. It's always not enough land in the opening hand despite pile shuffling, riffle shuffling, etc. Two weeks ago I went 4 rounds in which I saw a total of 2 lands in my opening hand of the round, leading to a 2-1-1 result that was very depressing. Last night in 4 rounds I had a complete mull loss in game 1 of a round, with no lands in 25 cards (7, 6, 5, 4, 3) and a mull to 5 in game 2 of that round in which I never saw the second land. I also had a round in which I mulled 6, keeping a 1 lander with a Tropical Island, Ponder and Brainstorm and never saw red mana and then a mull 5 in which I got mana but was overpowered due to the mull, leading to a 2-2 result on the evening and more agita.

This may just be random but it is becoming a PITA to deal with. I spent a solid 5 minutes of the mull loss round randomizing in every way possible and still couldn't buy enough land for my life.

So I want to try 20 lands next week. What are the logical pulls for the extra lands? I want at least 7 ways to kill DRS, Insectile Aberration and SFM and I also want at least 9 counters.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I would advise against running two copies of Sylvan Library, especially in the main deck. I love the card, but drawing two when you only need one is just way too bad. Seeing as you only want it against decks with Swords to Plowshares and Show And Tell combo, it will also never get handled once it lands, so it's often easy to maneuver the game to a point where you can resolve it. Given how limited its use is, I also feel like it's not a card you want to have main deck right now. Way back when, you could play it maindeck because of how absurd it was against Maverick, Miracles and Esper Blade. Apart from Miracles, these decks are barely played anymore and the format has become much more aggressive.
If your local metagame calls for it, by all means, run it maindeck, but I don't think you ever want more than one.

Regarding Counterspell, in my experience it has always been awesome in just about every matchup. The main argument people bring up against it is that it costs two mana, which I never got, especially when people used to run Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Cliques in this deck. This is only really relevant in counterwars.
There are only few decks that don't care about their spells being countered, and honestly, even countering a late-game removal spell on a Delver often wins games. Having hardcounters is just very good in even remotely grindy matchups.

Edit:
If I was going to pull 2 spells for 2 Wooded Foothills what would be the best candidates?

I've had terrible mulligan luck in 3 of the last 4 competitions I have taken CT too. It's always not enough land in the opening hand despite pile shuffling, riffle shuffling, etc. Two weeks ago I went 4 rounds in which I saw a total of 2 lands in my opening hand of the round, leading to a 2-1-1 result that was very depressing. Last night in 4 rounds I had a complete mull loss in game 1 of a round, with no lands in 25 cards (7, 6, 5, 4, 3) and a mull to 5 in game 2 of that round in which I never saw the second land. I also had a round in which I mulled 6, keeping a 1 lander with a Tropical Island, Ponder and Brainstorm and never saw red mana and then a mull 5 in which I got mana but was overpowered due to the mull, leading to a 2-2 result on the evening and more agita.

This may just be random but it is becoming a PITA to deal with. I spent a solid 5 minutes of the mull loss round randomizing in every way possible and still couldn't buy enough land for my life.

So I want to try 20 lands next week. What are the logical pulls for the extra lands? I want at least 7 ways to kill DRS, Insectile Aberration and SFM and I also want at least 9 counters.

Do yourself a favour and don't do this. The deck has ben running on 14+4 lands since 2007 for a reason. If you feel you're not drawing enough lands after your opening hands, try cutting fetches for additional duals. If you want to run a deck with more lands, try out NLT, if that still exists.

[FoolofaTook]

Edit:

Do yourself a favour and don't do this. The deck has ben running on 14+4 lands since 2007 for a reason. If you feel you're not drawing enough lands after your opening hands, try cutting fetches for additional duals. If you want to run a deck with more lands, try out NLT, if that still exists.

NLT will not work in my meta or any other solid Legacy meta at this point. Delver of Secrets is what makes the list competitive at this point. Without it RUG is just too slow to cope with the wide range of fast lists and and it gets out aggro-controlled by the Stoneblade lists with or without TNN.

Given the randomness of a 14 colored land manabase with no acceleration it's surprising that this list still places well, particularly given the re-emergence of Wasteland in the meta. I'm just trying to find an alternative that lets me play the game 90% of the time and lately this list has been more like 75%.

[Alix444]

NLT will not work in my meta or any other solid Legacy meta at this point. Delver of Secrets is what makes the list competitive at this point. Without it RUG is just too slow to cope with the wide range of fast lists and and it gets out aggro-controlled by the Stoneblade lists with or without TNN.

Given the randomness of a 14 colored land manabase with no acceleration it's surprising that this list still places well, particularly given the re-emergence of Wasteland in the meta. I'm just trying to find an alternative that lets me play the game 90% of the time and lately this list has been more like 75%.

Dude your sample size is incredibly small, the probability that you experience that in the short run isn't that unlikely despite it not being the overall result in the long run. If you wanna run more lands then go ahead, but I have actually done the math and would love to show you if you are interested.

[skyout]

Recently played in a 30 man weekly event at my LGS. There is usually a healthy meta in the room with a good amount of combo and fair decks. This week there was a lot of BUG delver in the room. I have always had an issue playing against bug delver, they tend to go over top of me and can also beat the stifle wasteland game with their DRS.

I'm looking for advice on how to attack the matchup. I tend to lean on my nimble mongeese and play the resource battle. I've also thought about sideboarding divert to redirect abrupt decay and blow them out.

(A bonus question: How do I to also tackle the enchantress matchup? There are two players that have been showing up who play enchantress)

[FoolofaTook]

(A bonus question: How do I to also tackle the enchantress matchup? There are two players that have been showing up who play enchantress)

The way to beat Enchantress is to counter everything they try to do early on. They have no targets for your burn so it's a good thing to side out for the extra counters in your sideboard. If you don't have extra counters in your sideboard you have to hope you get lucky on the draw. Dropping a delver or a mongoose and then dazing their first Utopia Sprawl or Wild Growth really helps. Once they get the ramp going you're in trouble because they will then stack enchantments in a way that you can't respond well to them. If they're actually playing more than a few non-basics you can try the mana denial plan, especially if they're foolish enough to fetch a non-basic and then drop an enchant on it to ramp.

My experience against the list is that a seasoned Enchantress player will drop or fetch basic forests and put the ramp pieces on those. If they manage to do this they will make Daze and Spell Pierce fairly irrelevant in a hurry and Force of Will isn't enough to stop the card drawing engines from coming online at that point. Argothian Enchantress has shroud so unless you can Spell Snare or Force her you're in trouble.

[btm10]

Recently played in a 30 man weekly event at my LGS. There is usually a healthy meta in the room with a good amount of combo and fair decks. This week there was a lot of BUG delver in the room. I have always had an issue playing against bug delver, they tend to go over top of me and can also beat the stifle wasteland game with their DRS.

I'm looking for advice on how to attack the matchup. I tend to lean on my nimble mongeese and play the resource battle. I've also thought about sideboarding divert to redirect abrupt decay and blow them out.

BUG Delver just isn't a great matchup for you. Sometimes you can go underneath them, but Decay and DRS both line up well against what you're trying to do. You're in a better place if they're playing the Stifle version because otherwise Liliana is a beating, as is Hymn. Divert is good against BUG decks in general.



(A bonus question: How do I to also tackle the enchantress matchup? There are two players that have been showing up who play enchantress)

You need to stop the draw engine most of all, but Fool is right in that stopping the ramp is part of that. If they get to 5 mana and won't die in your next combat, they've basically won unless their board is otherwise empty. Counter Elephant Grass if you have a fast clock, but otherwise let them tie up their mana keeping it around. If you both 'get' the matchup, I'd say it's close or that Enchantress has a slight edge. Bring in Rough/Tumble, Sulfuric Vortex, and Grip.

[FoolofaTook]

You need to stop the draw engine most of all, but Fool is right in that stopping the ramp is part of that. If they get to 5 mana and won't die in your next combat, they've basically won unless their board is otherwise empty. Counter Elephant Grass if you have a fast clock, but otherwise let them tie up their mana keeping it around. If you both 'get' the matchup, I'd say it's close or that Enchantress has a slight edge. Bring in Rough/Tumble, Sulfuric Vortex, and Grip.

If Enchantress is on the play it can be a very unfavorable matchup because they get to play their first ramp piece before you play. Then turn 2 they can drop their 2nd land and their 2nd ramp piece is immune to Daze, Spell Pierce and Spell Snare making a 5 mana turn 3 a real possibility.

If we're on the play and can't counter the first ramp piece it just pushes the inevitability back by a turn. So I will always Force the first ramp piece if I have no other way to interact with it whether I'm on the play or on the draw.

[Einherjer]

I'd most soundly advise against forcing their first ramp piece. While Dazing (with threat) and Piercing (if playing vs unknown or whatever) is def. good I have found the most important spells not to be the ramp spells. What you really want to focus on, and this holds true for most blue decks when confronted with Enchantress, is their namesake effects: Enchantress' Presence and Argothian Enchantress. If you are able to cut them off from their draw-spells all their ramp will eventually just produce one fast big spell that you can FoW in any way given.

Greetings

[FoolofaTook]

I'd most soundly advise against forcing their first ramp piece. While Dazing (with threat) and Piercing (if playing vs unknown or whatever) is def. good I have found the most important spells not to be the ramp spells. What you really want to focus on, and this holds true for most blue decks when confronted with Enchantress, is their namesake effects: Enchantress' Presence and Argothian Enchantress. If you are able to cut them off from their draw-spells all their ramp will eventually just produce on fast big spell that you can FoW in any way given.

Greetings

What I've found is that once the Enchantress player gets to 5 mana they are going to build their hand and then sequence their plays in a way that you just can't adequately control the situation.

You're primarily a Miracles player and so you will approach the matchup very differently than most lists since you have Counterbalance to potentially offset their inevitability. If you let them get their ramp going while playing RUG Canadian you're going to run into the problem that all RUG Tempo lists have, which is once the opponent has gotten past your primary disruption and developed a stable mana position their spells are just much better than yours.

[btm10]

I'd most soundly advise against forcing their first ramp piece. While Dazing (with threat) and Piercing (if playing vs unknown or whatever) is def. good I have found the most important spells not to be the ramp spells. What you really want to focus on, and this holds true for most blue decks when confronted with Enchantress, is their namesake effects: Enchantress' Presence and Argothian Enchantress. If you are able to cut them off from their draw-spells all their ramp will eventually just produce on fast big spell that you can FoW in any way given.

Greetings

This is correct. Any sensible Enchantress player is going to play around Daze when casting key spells and will probably play around Pierce with Presence if you let them, so your Forces and any Snares have to be fully committed to stopping Argothian, Presence, and GSZ.


What I've found is that once the Enchantress player gets to 5 mana they are going to build their hand and then sequence their plays in a way that you just can't adequately control the situation.

You're primarily a Miracles player and so you will approach the matchup very differently than most lists since you have Counterbalance to potentially offset their inevitability. If you let them get their ramp going while playing RUG Canadian you're going to run into the problem that all RUG Tempo lists have, which is once the opponent has gotten past your primary disruption and developed a stable mana position their spells are just much better than yours.

The only real argument for Forcing the first ramp piece on the draw is if you have something like Mongoose, Daze, Goyf, 2 fetches, Force + Blue card AND are confident that that hand is all you need to get there AND you're on the draw. Unless this is game 2 or 3 and you're very familiar with the opponent and the list I wouldn't bank on that line being good. If they get a single Argothian into play and aren't up against the wall already, they're like going to bury you in CA and slow your offense down to a crawl with Elephant Grass. Many lists now are also running Swords out of the board.

As for Ein mostly playing Miracles - I'm sure he'll agree that CounterTop is just ok against Enchantress. If it comes down quickly and you have 2s and 3s on top to hit their enchantresses and tutors they didn't have Guile or ramp, it's good, but otherwise it doesn't shift the inevitability or anything. Most Enchantress lists still run Emrakul and can ramp into him fairly quickly, often just by playing pseudo draw-go and spamming do-nothing enchantments. Miracles' best shot is usually to go for a quick Entreat and stop them from being able to set up Confinement lock before they're dead.

Anyway, this is turning into a discussion about Enchantress rather than RUG, though I'd be happy to continue this discussion in another thread.

[Tammit67]

Just focus their draw engine.

[sea]

Just plain wrong.

this wasnt very constructive.

i assume youre playing the matchup wrong. if you know which elves/insects to target, and you have a proper sideboard, elves really is a pretty easy match unless they get the nuts or you get no removal. almost all of your creatures are better and come out about the same time, we have wasteland for their cradle and counterspells for their combo, every creature in their deck (aside from the combo ones) die to our removal, and forked bolt is often a 2 for 1.

[Emo]

I have played against elves a hundred times against good pilots, ones who average 7-3 at SCG opens, and Elves is NOT an easy matchup. Saying we have removal for their creatures doesn't mean it is easy by any stretch of the imagination. The fact of the matter is that unless we have immense pressure early on (usually double delver) most RUG lists have 5 pieces of removal, maybe six if your list runs 2 forked bolts. On average you will be able to find 2 pieces of removal in the first 3-4 turns, which is often just not enough. Good elves pilots will blank all of our counters except force and wasting cradle doesn't come up as often as you think, by the time they have used cradle (which really breaks through our soft permission) they have an overwhelming board position.

After board the matchup is a bit more manageable, but oftentimes It is usually draw into rough/tumble and get them to over commit or its bust.

[Tammit67]

holy wow you are being disrespectful. i didnt think this community put up with this kind of nonsense. you seem to have read way more into my post than was intended. i think you need to take your own advice.

Just report it and move on. I did just that.

FWIW There are certainly a lot of things RUG can do to disrupt elves, but I'd prefer to be the elves pilot. It gets trickier with multiple forked bolts, submerges, rough/tumbles, cages but that's more having a heavyhanded sideboard approach

[Einherjer]

From my experience with RUG, it isn't really a question of removal or counters, as there is no way that you are going to be able to remove each and every single elf with these 4-7 removal spells. Yes, Wasteland answers Cradle and Force of Will somewhat neuters Natural Order but I think we are moving towards magical christmas land here, assuming we have everything while Elves plays their basic plan without any good draws or strategic nuances.

The focus shouldn't be at your amount of Bolts or your quality of countermagic. It should be on the creature you have in your opening hand. This MU changes drastically when you have a Delver of Secrets or any other of your green monstrosities. When you have Delver of Secrets, suddenly your Bolts matter, suddenly it's a good move to Wasteland Cradle and suddenly FoW is actually enough to stop their big spell. Suddenly the MU is somewhat positive.
But if you don't have Delver you are forced into trying to control the elvish menace, and this doesn't work. Not without turn-around spells like Rough//Tumble or anything in this category. If you are stuck with Mongooses(yes, not Mongeese) and Goyfs you are facing a seriously negative MU, as you have no buisness in outgrinding their deck.

That's my experience, let me know what you think.

@the guy who said that I'm primarily a Miracles player: Yes, this is true. But I've been trying to work on RUG for a (short) time now and plan on doing so in the future as well, because I want to innovate here as well, as I believe to be like 100% finished with Miracles, concerning the 75 and how to play it. So I want to learn something new and landed at RUG. Please let me know whenever you strongly disagree with something I say, because I just want to learn. If I get time I'll also stream my learning/getting-pounded-by-Poxx process somewhen soon. :)

Greetings

[Emo]

@the guy who said that I'm primarily a Miracles player: Yes, this is true. But I've been trying to work on RUG for a (short) time now and plan on doing so in the future as well, because I want to innovate here as well, as I believe to be like 100% finished with Miracles, concerning the 75 and how to play it. So I want to learn something new and landed at RUG. Please let me know whenever you strongly disagree with something I say, because I just want to learn. If I get time I'll also stream my learning/getting-pounded-by-Poxx process somewhen soon. :)

Greetings

This is what I appreciate from the Source :smile: It would be great to see you stream and get a fresh perspective on how to pilot this deck!

[sea]

there is no way that you are going to be able to remove each and every single elf with these 4-7 removal spells.

this is a fallacy. it may be tempting, but you cant try to remove ALL of their threats. your creatures are better than theirs, so you really only need to kill the engine cards and deathrite shaman. if you confine your removal to wirewood symbiote, deathrite, and the elves that can produce large amounts of green (which you can actually ignore a lot of the time if you have some counter back up), youve basically neutered their deck down to bad beatdown with a clunky combo. some games, a forked bolt and lightning bolt will give you enough time to steal a win with delver (which they basically cant do anything about game 1) or control the board the board with goyf, which will probably require a 3 for 1 for them to deal with.

i agree, there area lot of games you dont draw enough removal, or even any removal, and elves gets out of hand. there are also, however, a lot of games that can be won in the manner i described above. in my, what i consider reasonably robust, experience, winnable games come more than the unwinnable ones.


The focus shouldn't be at your amount of Bolts or your quality of countermagic. It should be on the creature you have in your opening hand. This MU changes drastically when you have a Delver of Secrets or any other of your green monstrosities. When you have Delver of Secrets, suddenly your Bolts matter, suddenly it's a good move to Wasteland Cradle and suddenly FoW is actually enough to stop their big spell. Suddenly the MU is somewhat positive.
But if you don't have Delver you are forced into trying to control the elvish menace, and this doesn't work. Not without turn-around spells like Rough//Tumble or anything in this category.

i agree with most of this. our creatures are very important because we are trying to turn the game into a fast midrange (RUG) vs. a mediocre aggro (elves) match. goose is pretty poor at this. goyf can be huge against elves, though. if the game gets slowed down, his presence on the board will move the game in your favor with each additional turn.

Mongooses(yes, not Mongeese)
haha, yes!

[poxy14]

ive had success with the ELVES matchup with my current 7burn built (4bolts/1fice/1tarfire/1forked) and our sideboard offers alot of help still with roughs, submerges, grafs..
i also believe that an early DELVER is key here, as goose and goyf, though big, will have minimal effect vs an army.. brainstorms and ponders are key in sculpting our hands, glimpse shld be countered, always bear in mind that dreaded 4mana spell too, so reserve FOWs here.

[cheerios]

My plan versus elves is just to try to keep the board as clean as possible, and kill them asap. Hands with delver are almost an auto keep in game 1. If playing the probe build, I can be conservative on what I counter; otherwise, I just counter and kill anything on sight.

Cheers

[Contract Killer]

In regards to the elves match up I agree with most of what's being said here. The match up drastically relies on if you have Delver. Our green threats are much worse against them because they have 8 different ways to chum block them. Good elf pilots sequence which creatures to play out and bait out removal so that they can establish the "best friend" team and block our ground threats forever. In addition to this when they have a "mini" combo like that going if you draw forked bolt you just have to accept that forked bolt won't be a two for one since you aim one at wirewood and the other creature will get bounced. All that aside as for boarding I actually like taking goose out here. He is horribly slow and if they're on the play and Deathrite tables they can have something like 2 or more activations with it each turn making goose very bad.

Now one specific card that I don't think many people have on their radar or board for that matter is Envelop which I find very good especially in the elves match up. Blue counter 12 of their combo/win spells yes please. In addition how do you guys board against elves? I've essentially boiled it down to daze, stifle, some number of geese and pierce are all horrible cards. Daze is an auto out OTD and pierce is horrible so that's -6 and we want to probably take out stifles if we have better stuff in board. Pierce is more or less just upgraded to flusterstorm there's no reason to not do this unless you think they'll bring in meekstone which I think is a real small margin to hinge against. This is -12 cards and hopefully we can board something like 2 rough, 2 submerege, 2 envelop, 2 flusterstorm, 1 Vendilion Clique (slow but still better than goose), 2 grafdigger's cage, 1 _____. Am I wrong for boarding out stifle otd? Daze is obviously bad and even though stifle is one of the easier ways to win by limiting the actual amount of forests they have since they actually only run 14 real lands similar to us, but I still think stifle is horrible OTD. At best stifle otd gives us an out to craterhoof but even then a 5/5 pretty much beats us lols. I'm curious what you're guys thoughts are on this take of boarding against Elves instead of trying to tempo them out (especially otd otp it's a different scenario and actually possible) and just maxing out on as much removal as possible. This is also similar to how I board against infect just trying to max out on removal.

If anyone is curious on my reasoning for Envelop outside of the elves match up it's because it hits a key card in each of the following decks:
Miracles
ANT
SnT variants (only hits show and tell, but that's still their best combo piece dream halls or sneak and show are much easier to deal with)
Elves

[Contract Killer]

My plan versus elves is just to try to keep the board as clean as possible, and kill them asap. Hands with delver are almost an auto keep in game 1. If playing the probe build, I can be conservative on what I counter; otherwise, I just counter and kill anything on sight.

Cheers

This is a very good approach I think. We need to stop them from getting to critical mass and keeping as many threats off the board as possible.

[poxy14]

In addition how do you guys board against elves? I've essentially boiled it down to daze, stifle, some number of geese and pierce are all horrible cards.

+1, these are the cards i side out vs elves, daze are just worse vs them, even stifles.. by the time we stifle craterhoof, we still are dealing with an army next turn..

- 4 dazes / - 3 stifles / - 1 mongoose
+ 2 rough / + 1 grafdiggers, + 1 needle (wirewood or drs), + 1 vendilion clique, + 2 submerges + 1 dismember

some number of pierces stay, as fow fodder and counters early attempts of glimpse.. they also might put in cabal therapies games 2 or three..

[cartothemax]

My personal experience with the Elves! matchup has not been so great. The ability for the deck to just overwhelm you quickly makes it hard to contain. Even if you Bolt the T1 DRS they still can produce an obscene amount of mana by T3 and beyond. Not to mention a machine gunning DRS or Scooze backed up by Cradle and annihilate our graveyard. I have had games where these two together have emptied by graveyard of 9+ cards in one turn. Goyf can do a good job stone walling ground threats, but eventually they just go around the dumb beater somehow. It's worth mentioning that Ruric Thar is played in a lot Elves! lists and is a total beating. He blocks all of our creatures and makes it really painful to play half of our deck. Just like how Symbiote causes us to make unfavorable trades, Ruric does the same thing.

I do like to try and keep Stifle in post board though. I have had games where I just stop them from playing Forests. It's also another way to prevent Dryad Arbor from getting into play (stopping the fetch for it). I do agree that a 5/5 behemoth is still a problem, but it's better then an 9/9, 5/5, 5/5, 5/5 with trample swinging though :tongue:

Largely, I try to cut the Elves player off mana with Stifle, Wasteland, and Bolts. I will often turn bolts towards Arbors on T1. Mongoose isn't great in this matchup, but he is a creature. Cutting a Stifle or two is correct in my mind though.

Like has been mentioned my strategy attempts to contain the Elves! player as much as possible and Delver is the best way to end the game quickly.

[skyout]

I know this has topic has probably been beaten to death and there are usually a pro and against camp...but....what are peoples opinion on Gitaxian Probe in this deck over say more burn or the spell snare / more pierce packages?

I have felt a few times that spell snare and pierce have been awkward draws, or I only need a single card for threshold.

[BKclassic]

I know this has topic has probably been beaten to death and there are usually a pro and against camp...but....what are peoples opinion on Gitaxian Probe in this deck over say more burn or the spell snare / more pierce packages?

I have felt a few times that spell snare and pierce have been awkward draws, or I only need a single card for threshold.

Unless you are in meta where you know everyone and what they usually play, you would have to be a crazy person to not run Gitaxian Probe. The card is like a Force of Will that doesn't have any card disadvantage in that FoW is often a security measure that let's be sure we will be able to execute our game plan by countering whatever our opponent would be doing to ruin our game plan for zero mana and an additional card. Probe does basically the same thing by informing us what our opponent is on and letting play around it. It won't actually answer problem but it informs you how to use your available answers/threats to deal with your opponents game plan.

[aex]

Probe may also have your opening confused for that of storm or another combo deck. The old probe, play a fetch, and pass holding up stifle can blow out a lot of opponents not entirely in the loop.

[Contract Killer]

I know this has topic has probably been beaten to death and there are usually a pro and against camp...but....what are peoples opinion on Gitaxian Probe in this deck over say more burn or the spell snare / more pierce packages?

I have felt a few times that spell snare and pierce have been awkward draws, or I only need a single card for threshold.

Personally I think both are correct depending on how you want to play the deck. Probe versions vs non probe versions run very differently IMO.


Unless you are in meta where you know everyone and what they usually play, you would have to be a crazy person to not run Gitaxian Probe. The card is like a Force of Will that doesn't have any card disadvantage in that FoW is often a security measure that let's be sure we will be able to execute our game plan by countering whatever our opponent would be doing to ruin our game plan for zero mana and an additional card. Probe does basically the same thing by informing us what our opponent is on and letting play around it. It won't actually answer problem but it informs you how to use your available answers/threats to deal with your opponents game plan.

See I personally think that probeless versions are better even if you don't know what they are on. I've had a lot of times where probe essentially showed me a hand I couldn't beat and then I cantrip which shows weakness trying to play to my outs and find force or something and then they just jam and it's over. Probe really only helps on deciding to hold up stifle turn 1 which I find to be very sub par in comparison to either playing out a threat or cantripping for a threat. It's definitely not force of will and one of the disadvantages is you run less actual gas in the deck and when the opponent plays around daze our only counters become force and maybe a pierce or 2.

Essentially from what I've learned after playing many games with both versions is probe versions can have very potent stifle openers and allow you to play perfectly. This does though require you to play very tight and accept the fact that sometimes they top deck something that makes known information irrelevant or they just have a hand we can't beat. The other problem is we don't have as many answers to stuff so it requires more calculations as to what is absolutely necessary to deal with vs saving counter/bolt for something worse (usually we just have to jam and hope they don't draw another drs or something).

Now running a split of something like 2/2/2 forked bolt, snare, pierce plays differently because you have a lot more outs to everything. On top of that I've found that this build slightly better IMO since more people play badly against it. Here's the people play badly against the core of our deck alone fore example: they try to play around daze and then we have force or we have daze + stifle and they just give us more tempo. Running both snare and pierce increases this the best way I've found to describe it phenomena as well. I find more people going into the tank trying to figure out what's in my hand and what they can play around and they usually misjudge what they can afford to play around if I have a clock out.

I think that both have their advantages and disadvantages, but I think something like 2 forked, 2 snare, 2 pierce offers more advantageous plays. You get to play overall more outs to everything and the opponents tend to play worse stepping around daze/pierce (soft permission) and then run into snare/force (hard permission) or vice versa. I also don't like how if you ponder/brainstorm into probe you effectively see less cards and having it any other time than our opener is very sub par for why we want to run it.


Probe may also have your opening confused for that of storm or another combo deck. The old probe, play a fetch, and pass holding up stifle can blow out a lot of opponents not entirely in the loop.

Anyone who thinks you're on storm because they see probe tarn/delta pass is a very bad magic player lol. Storm almost always fires off what 1 of their 10 cantrips turn 1 or 1 of their 7 or 8 disruption spells (not actually sure how many of these they run). Again if they're smart and think something fishy is up and don't play the fetch you saw in their hand this loses us tempo unless we have like bolt for their turn 1 threat. I just don't think holding up stifle is that advantageous unless it's a known fact that they only have fetches. This could also be me losing out on free wins seeing as I've been playing the deck for 3 years straight (lack of money/motivation to buy a new deck) and everyone knows what I'm on. That aside I think stifle is better when they're forced into it by like a turn 1 delver followed by a turn 2 waste holding up something like daze/force + stifle. Then they have to run into it and we actually gain tempo because we have a clock on the table. Stifling a fetch without a clock is similar to wasteland without a clock it's just negative tempo.

[Isre Morn]

That aside I think stifle is better when they're forced into it by like a turn 1 delver followed by a turn 2 waste holding up something like daze/force + stifle. Then they have to run into it and we actually gain tempo because we have a clock on the table. Stifling a fetch without a clock is similar to wasteland without a clock it's just negative tempo.

THIS. I actively play RUG Delver for about 2 months and this is one of the truths about piloting this deck correctly and could be more extra mentioned in the primer. Like a "bad Brainstorm" a "bad Tempo play" is also worth to mention. I'm still catching myself too often making this kind of mistakes.

[kyreii]

I haven't found the elves matchup to be problematic. Sure, game 1 is an uphill climb, especially since I run a removal-light list (4 l bolt, 1 f bolt), but we have sideboard options against elves that make the matchup that much easier. Primary removal/daze targets are Symbiotes and Deathrites. I usually reserve my Force of Wills for Natural Order since that line of play pretty much ends it for us (Of course, you can stifle the Hoof trigger, but I'd rather not have a craterhoof in play).

I think Goyf is being undervalued in the elves matchup. I have found Goyf to perform well vs. the little green men since he presents a fast clock or they have to spend an elf to stop him each turn.

My SB plan has been
RUG 54, 3 pierce, 1 F Bolt, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Pithing Needle (or 2 Git Probes in place of snare/pithing)

SB
-1 mongoose, -1 Pierce, -1 Snare, -1 stifle, -1 daze
+ 1 forked bolt, +2 Rough/Tumble, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Grafdigger's Cage

[FoolofaTook]

Stifling a fetch without a clock is not a negative play against a lot of lists, particularly the ones who are trying to shuffle away trash or get to 3 mana. In those cases it is a game-saving play because if they find a threat before you do you're likely to lose. If they get to 3 mana and can play the card the list is centered around (Shardless Agent, True-Name Nemesis, Liliana of the Veil, etc.) you're going to lose most of the time.

It's all context.

[Emo]

I have been running a list with 2 forked bolt main and cutting the third spell pierce:
54 core 2 pierce/2 probe/2 forked bolt, and that seems to work best for me when running against elves.
I want them to print a good card for thresh, I was really hoping for the RG command to be better

[sea]

I think Goyf is being undervalued in the elves matchup. I have found Goyf to perform well vs. the little green men since he presents a fast clock or they have to spend an elf to stop him each turn.

whole-heartedly agree. goyf gets a bit of a bad rep in this deck because hes easy to remove and slow (for this format at least). hes in top form against elves, though, because they have no removal and no must-counter/must-stifle things in the first two turns.




RUG 54, 3 pierce, 1 F Bolt, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Pithing Needle (or 2 Git Probes in place of snare/pithing)


this is interesting. i recently threw a pithing needle in my board and have been VERY happy with it. im considering going up to two, it just has so much utility and stops a bunch of stuff that really hurts us. how has playing one main been going for you?

[FoolofaTook]

Goyf is almost always one of the best cards in the list. He wins more top deck wars than any other card. Delver is the best early card and Mongoose is the best if the plan is working well but Goyf is still the meat in the list.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Suprised you guys are not talking about the new card Rending Volley.

[KobeBryan]

Suprised you guys are not talking about the new card Rending Volley.

Not surprising at all. Every blue or white based creature is killable by bolt.

[Contract Killer]

Stifling a fetch without a clock is not a negative play against a lot of lists, particularly the ones who are trying to shuffle away trash or get to 3 mana. In those cases it is a game-saving play because if they find a threat before you do you're likely to lose. If they get to 3 mana and can play the card the list is centered around (Shardless Agent, True-Name Nemesis, Liliana of the Veil, etc.) you're going to lose most of the time.

It's all context.

Right I'm not saying it's horrible sometimes that's our best line of attack against particular decks when their high end is too good for us to beat. I am just saying holding it up turn 1 over playing out a threat I think is incorrect unless you're very confidant your mana denial plan will get there with like another stifle and a waste or 2 in hand (this still probably means this hand is bad unless you have a threat or at least a ponder). The thing is the stifle plan turn 1 is not bad the part that I don't like is when you follow this plan but don't have a follow up threat. I've kept too many "do-nothing" hands that have like lots of removal/counters/mana denial, but no threat/cantrip. I just would caution anyone from keeping a tempting hand with a solid mana denial package unless you know it's good in that context and that you think you'll be able to capitalize on the tempo you gained with a threat that's when our mana denial actually starts to bear fruit.

[FoolofaTook]

Right I'm not saying it's horrible sometimes that's our best line of attack against particular decks when their high end is too good for us to beat. I am just saying holding it up turn 1 over playing out a threat I think is incorrect unless you're very confidant your mana denial plan will get there with like another stifle and a waste or 2 in hand (this still probably means this hand is bad unless you have a threat or at least a ponder). The thing is the stifle plan turn 1 is not bad the part that I don't like is when you follow this plan but don't have a follow up threat. I've kept too many "do-nothing" hands that have like lots of removal/counters/mana denial, but no threat/cantrip. I just would caution anyone from keeping a tempting hand with a solid mana denial package unless you know it's good in that context and that you think you'll be able to capitalize on the tempo you gained with a threat that's when our mana denial actually starts to bear fruit.

If you kept a hand without a threat you must hold up Stifle, obviously. If you have Delver in hand it kind of depends on what else you have in hand and what you are playing against. T1 Delver with no Daze against a list playing plows and bolts is like a suicide attempt. Even if you have Force and something to pitch to it you're still going to lose to their bolt/plow + daze and you're going to lose hard. Much better to Ponder or even Mainstorm on T1 if you don't have a reliable threat backed by either another threat or a cheap counter to make the trade off worth it. It's not better to Ponder vs holding up Stifle though. You have to hold up Stifle unless you either have a redundancy in threats or a well-protected one.

I was just reacting to the general idea that Stifle absent a clock is a bad tempo play. It's rarely a bad tempo play except when you're already in the mid-game and the opponent is already at 3 mana.

[Vandalize]

Hey guys, I've been lurking around this thread for last month. I've played a fair amount of RUG in the past (mainly when Maverick was the deal). After testing several lists posted (both IRL and in MWorkstation), my ultimate conclusion is that 3 Stifle is enough.

I've been playing the following list, which differs only a few cards from BKclassic's list:

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Pierce
2 Forked Bolt

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry

Three important topics:

1) If you're playing only 3 Tarmogoyfs maindeck, make sure that at least 2 cards in your sideboard are creatures. V. Clique and Sulfur Elemental are both great utility critters that helps us against some bad matchups (like Death and Taxes, for example).

2) Destructive Revelry > Krosan Grip. This deck struggles to reach three mana, that's a fact. Revelry is easier to cast and add 2 damage, which is important reach for grindy matchups where lifegain is present (like 12Post-MUD and Batterskull.dec).

3) Gitaxian Probe makes sideboarding pretty easy. If you're well aware of your metagame, it's perfectly fine to side out all three of them for answers.