[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[oSeabass]

With Mono Blue Omni Tell probably going away in favor of UR Sneak and Show, does anyone think Delver can handle that and Miracles? I know whenever I have played against Miracles it just seems miserable because I can't Wasteland basics, it's hard to resolve anything in the deck if even a CB gets online, not to mention if a Top is in play as well.

Sneak and Show is a little slower and the Wastelands are ok but with their FoW backup and extra mana from Petal/Sol Lands, sometimes counters like Daze or Pierce just don't cut it. Turn out just waiting until turn 4 with 5 mana up still allows Grisel/Emrakul to win the game.

[ironclad8690]

With Mono Blue Omni Tell probably going away in favor of UR Sneak and Show, does anyone think Delver can handle that and Miracles? I know whenever I have played against Miracles it just seems miserable because I can't Wasteland basics, it's hard to resolve anything in the deck if even a CB gets online, not to mention if a Top is in play as well.

Sneak and Show is a little slower and the Wastelands are ok but with their FoW backup and extra mana from Petal/Sol Lands, sometimes counters like Daze or Pierce just don't cut it. Turn out just waiting until turn 4 with 5 mana up still allows Grisel/Emrakul to win the game.

You can always put 2 Pithing Needle in your sideboard if you fear those matchups.

[tescrin]

With Mono Blue Omni Tell probably going away in favor of UR Sneak and Show, does anyone think Delver can handle that and Miracles? I know whenever I have played against Miracles it just seems miserable because I can't Wasteland basics, it's hard to resolve anything in the deck if even a CB gets online, not to mention if a Top is in play as well.

Sneak and Show is a little slower and the Wastelands are ok but with their FoW backup and extra mana from Petal/Sol Lands, sometimes counters like Daze or Pierce just don't cut it. Turn out just waiting until turn 4 with 5 mana up still allows Grisel/Emrakul to win the game.

RUG always survived before; even dominated. It's decent against miracles since it packs Stifle/Goose so it can get the time needed to get there. It's decent against Sneak because it packs a sturdy number of counters and picks at the manabase with a fast clock.

I imagine RUG will move back to 2 Forked Bolt, X Spell Pierce/Snare, x something; Moms will be incoming in droves and Pierces or Snares will be good for the blue decks as usual. Pierce seems particularly good against S&T since it takes 5-6 mana to get through it; and I assume you've been wasting, stifling, and probably sitting on a dead Daze or Force.

[rlesko]

RUG always survived before; even dominated. It's decent against miracles since it packs Stifle/Goose so it can get the time needed to get there. It's decent against Sneak because it packs a sturdy number of counters and picks at the manabase with a fast clock.

I imagine RUG will move back to 2 Forked Bolt, X Spell Pierce/Snare, x something; Moms will be incoming in droves and Pierces or Snares will be good for the blue decks as usual. Pierce seems particularly good against S&T since it takes 5-6 mana to get through it; and I assume you've been wasting, stifling, and probably sitting on a dead Daze or Force.

Yea, as a matter of fact unless Sneak has a "god hand" I'm usually very confident in that MU (I'm running 3 pierces main). Miracles is my least favorite match up but still winnable.

[Jaytron]

My buddy and I went from Grixis Delver -> RUG Delver (me) and Omnitell -> Sneak (him). With Pyroblast/REB in the board, and the speed that RUG has, it's been pretty nasty for him. Sure he can sometimes have the nuts but I think RUG Delver is fine vs sneak.

What are your guys' thoughts on the BUG Delver matchup? SB plan/general gameplay plan?

[ironclad8690]

My buddy and I went from Grixis Delver -> RUG Delver (me) and Omnitell -> Sneak (him). With Pyroblast/REB in the board, and the speed that RUG has, it's been pretty nasty for him. Sure he can sometimes have the nuts but I think RUG Delver is fine vs sneak.

What are your guys' thoughts on the BUG Delver matchup? SB plan/general gameplay plan?

I have been having pretty good luck vs BUG Delver with 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Spell Snare, and 2 Dismember as my flex. I went down to 1 Submerge in my sideboard to make more room for Miracles hate, but I haven't really felt the effects of it too much.

My boarding plan vs them:
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Submerge, 1 Rough
Out: 4 Force of Will

Edit: also 1 Life from the Loam for a Pierce or something.

I would board differently if they were on the Stifle (Hymnless) build, though I don't know why they would be.

[Jaytron]

I have been having pretty good luck vs BUG Delver with 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Spell Snare, and 2 Dismember as my flex. I went down to 1 Submerge in my sideboard to make more room for Miracles hate, but I haven't really felt the effects of it too much.

My boarding plan vs them:
In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Submerge, 1 Rough
Out: 4 Force of Will

I would board differently if they were on the Stifle (Hymnless) build, though I don't know why they would be.

Interesting, I'm running 2 Forked Bolt instead of Dismember. Do you like Dismember more? Meta call?

Rough vs BuG is to kill off DRS and unflipped delvers? Would you bring in rough vs Shardless for DRS/resolved agents?

[AustinP]

i finally threw this list together for my local legacy and got destroyed by dredge and affinity... lol bad night

[Contract Killer]

Can you explain your reasoning as to why you Clique'd him when you did? Wouldn't it be better to wait and until he is almost hellbent?

The idea behind playing Vendilion Clique there is that his combo is most vulnerable then. Essentially with only 2 lands out (sea and island) and playing the Dark Ritual that's when he's most bottlenecked on mana. Having played storm now something that I never thought of is how powerful it is to Vendilion Clique a ritual out of their hand. Since the deck uses Past In Flames taking a ritual is often back breaking if they're going to use that line. In addition to do the tutor chain lines you often need upwards of 3 rituals/artifact mana which means they probably only have one business spell. By playing Vendilion Clique in response to the first ritual you can take the important second ritual or their business spell and probably ruin their whole turn along with blanking the first ritual.

Another upside that I hadn't really thought of is that Vendilion Clique was known information at the time. If Storm is stuck on mana the turn they go off they'll use a ritual and then a discard spell with some black mana floating. It hadn't occurred to me at the time that he must have had Cabal Therapy to deal with Vendilion Clique or multiple business and mana spells to make it irrelevant. I actually think for him a better line may have been to lead on double Lion's Eye Diamond into Dark Ritual. I would have played Vendilion Clique in response to his Dark Ritual and he could have cracked his Lion's Eye Diamond:

2x LED + Dark Ritual = bbb + rrr + uuu storm 4 (counting vendilion Clique
Past in Flames b + uuu storm 5
Dark ritual bbb + uuu storm 6
Gitaxian Probe bbb + uuu storm 7
Ponder bbb + uu storm 8 (needing to rip any +1 mana source and he did have his land drop)
Dark Petition Storm 9 -> Tendrils of Agony GG

This actually makes it really interesting because now realizing that he knew about vendilion clique it almost seems dependent on his sequencing.

[ironclad8690]

Interesting, I'm running 2 Forked Bolt instead of Dismember. Do you like Dismember more? Meta call?

Rough vs BuG is to kill off DRS and unflipped delvers? Would you bring in rough vs Shardless for DRS/resolved agents?

Yeah, basically I see Rough as just another way to deal with Deathrite Shaman. DRS living is so contrary to our mana denial plan, which I feel is the strongest way to attack BUG delver (keep off double black, keep off of 3 mana etc).


The idea behind playing Vendilion Clique there is that his combo is most vulnerable then. Essentially with only 2 lands out (sea and island) and playing the Dark Ritual that's when he's most bottlenecked on mana. Having played storm now something that I never thought of is how powerful it is to Vendilion Clique a ritual out of their hand. Since the deck uses Past In Flames taking a ritual is often back breaking if they're going to use that line. In addition to do the tutor chain lines you often need upwards of 3 rituals/artifact mana which means they probably only have one business spell. By playing Vendilion Clique in response to the first ritual you can take the important second ritual or their business spell and probably ruin their whole turn along with blanking the first ritual.

Another upside that I hadn't really thought of is that Vendilion Clique was known information at the time. If Storm is stuck on mana the turn they go off they'll use a ritual and then a discard spell with some black mana floating. It hadn't occurred to me at the time that he must have had Cabal Therapy to deal with Vendilion Clique or multiple business and mana spells to make it irrelevant. I actually think for him a better line may have been to lead on double Lion's Eye Diamond into Dark Ritual. I would have played Vendilion Clique in response to his Dark Ritual and he could have cracked his Lion's Eye Diamond:

2x LED + Dark Ritual = bbb + rrr + uuu storm 4 (counting vendilion Clique
Past in Flames b + uuu storm 5
Dark ritual bbb + uuu storm 6
Gitaxian Probe bbb + uuu storm 7
Ponder bbb + uu storm 8 (needing to rip any +1 mana source and he did have his land drop)
Dark Petition Storm 9 -> Tendrils of Agony GG

This actually makes it really interesting because now realizing that he knew about vendilion clique it almost seems dependent on his sequencing.

That makes sense. Aside from rituals everything else is sorcery speed, so that would be when he is most vulnerable.

[eyeownyu]

How has everyone been liking snare? I'm playing a legacy event this weekend and might try it out. I've been on 3 pierce, 1 dismember, 2 forked as my flex slots. I night try 2/2 snare and pierce split with 2 forked. I just don't want to give up more pierces against SNT. I am on 3 pyroblast sideboard so maybe that can make up for it.

[Contract Killer]

How has everyone been liking snare? I'm playing a legacy event this weekend and might try it out. I've been on 3 pierce, 1 dismember, 2 forked as my flex slots. I night try 2/2 snare and pierce split with 2 forked. I just don't want to give up more pierces against SNT. I am on 3 pyroblast sideboard so maybe that can make up for it.

It's definitely one of my favorite counters aside from the stock Force/Daze/Stifle. It consistently does what it does no matter what stage of the game it is. I find this really useful because once you're ahead you can just hold it up and not have to worry about if it's still live. Against delver decks once you get a clock established you can counter Goyf/YP to stay uncontested on the ground. When you play against miracles mid to late game you counter Snapcaster/Counterbalance and the occasional counterspell. These are some of the most common, but also what I consider the most impactful reasons to consider playing it.

[eyeownyu]

Went 4-2 at a 62 person seattle gpt. I got 17th place :( totally could have made it into top 8.

I was playing the stock 54 plus 1 dismember, 2 forked, 3 pierce. I'll try to write a report afyer work today.

[Zhanger]

Went 4-2 at a 62 person seattle gpt. I got 17th place :( totally could have made it into top 8.

I was playing the stock 54 plus 1 dismember, 2 forked, 3 pierce. I'll try to write a report afyer work today.

I play a similar flex. I cut down to one fork bolt and 2 dismember instead. For my meta it's some what of a necessity, damn Maverick

[Jaytron]

What are your guys' SB plans in the RUG Delver mirror?

My flex are 2 pierce, 2 forked bolt, 2 spell snare

SB:
1 Grafdigger
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough
2 Submerge

I bring in 2 Submerge, 2 Pyro, 1 Loam
Out 4 FoW 1 Daze. I'm thinking maybe Daze and a few forces stay in, and board out pierce instead?

My buddy brings Library in, for the mirror. Which seems really good if you can resolve it.

[Mr. Crane]

What are your guys' SB plans in the RUG Delver mirror?

My flex are 2 pierce, 2 forked bolt, 2 spell snare

SB:
1 Grafdigger
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough
2 Submerge

I bring in 2 Submerge, 2 Pyro, 1 Loam
Out 4 FoW 1 Daze. I'm thinking maybe Daze and a few forces stay in, and board out pierce instead?

My buddy brings Library in, for the mirror. Which seems really good if you can resolve it.

My plan:

+ 2 Submerge
+ 1 library
+ 2 pyro
+ 1 loam

- 2 pierce
- 4 fow

with 2 snare, maybe take 1 out.

[Xerlic]

Hey guys, I'm going to EE3 this weekend and it's the first time I'm playing Legacy since Eternal Weekend.

What you guys would recommend running in the 6 flex spots for an unknown meta in this post-DTT world? I was previously running 3x Pierce, 2x Dismember and 1x Forked Bolt due to a heavy Infect and Grixis Delver local meta.

SB plans are:

2x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
2x Rough/Tumble
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Sylvan Library
1x Pithing Needle
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ancient Grudge

[Jaytron]

Hey guys, I'm going to EE3 this weekend and it's the first time I'm playing Legacy since Eternal Weekend.

What you guys would recommend running in the 6 flex spots for an unknown meta in this post-DTT world? I was previously running 3x Pierce, 2x Dismember and 1x Forked Bolt due to a heavy Infect and Grixis Delver local meta.

SB plans are:

2x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
2x Rough/Tumble
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Sylvan Library
1x Pithing Needle
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ancient Grudge
With omnitell no longer having the presence it once had, I think 3 pierce main is too much. I'd do a 2/2/2 split with forked/dismember/pierce. I personally split between forked/pierce/snare.

[Mr. Crane]

Hey guys, I'm going to EE3 this weekend and it's the first time I'm playing Legacy since Eternal Weekend.

What you guys would recommend running in the 6 flex spots for an unknown meta in this post-DTT world? I was previously running 3x Pierce, 2x Dismember and 1x Forked Bolt due to a heavy Infect and Grixis Delver local meta.

SB plans are:

2x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
2x Rough/Tumble
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Sylvan Library
1x Pithing Needle
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ancient Grudge

With: 2 fluster 2 pyro and 1 clique on sb.

2 spell pierce, 1 snare, 2/1 dismember/ forked bolt

[Xerlic]

With omnitell no longer having the presence it once had, I think 3 pierce main is too much. I'd do a 2/2/2 split with forked/dismember/pierce. I personally split between forked/pierce/snare.


With: 2 fluster 2 pyro and 1 clique on sb.

2 spell pierce, 1 snare, 2/1 dismember/ forked bolt

Thanks for the advice. I agree that the 3 pierces are probably too much and will probably swap one to a snare.

[keys]

Quick question: When do you guys board in Life from the Loam (and what usually goes out for it)?

[Jaytron]

Quick question: When do you guys board in Life from the Loam (and what usually goes out for it)?

I like to board it in whenever I think a deck is vulnerable to wasteland.

What comes out depends on your list and matchup though.

[Contract Killer]

Quick question: When do you guys board in Life from the Loam (and what usually goes out for it)?

Personally I've never been a huge fan of it. Most of the match ups you want it in are other delver decks that are prone to wasteland right? The problem with that is most other delver decks are running deathrite. Now I know if deathrite is active we're probably losing and that's a fair point. That aside essentially in all the match ups you want it you get a very small window to try and apply it. On top of that it's completely dead without waste. It just has always seemed to cute for me, but that's my personal preference.

[Contract Killer]

So I'm curious about a marginal option in RUG Delver that I'm sure has been debated to death already. What fetches should I run?
This is partially dependent on if your build is running stifle and for the sake of argument let's assume that it is. The next question then is since we are running stifle Misty Rainforest is the most closely associated with RUG and should not be ran if concealment is the desired effect.*
Now that the basics are out of the way that leaves us with the following options:
Wooded Foothills
Flooded Strand
Polluted Delta
Scalding Tarn
lastly the "this does not matter" option

For starters wooded foothills. At first glance this looks great, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Opponents will perceive this as possibly Jund even though they run Verdant Catacombs and Bloodstained Mires predominantly. Maybe they'll think it's goblins which they'll probably dismiss due to it's lack of play. This leaves me thinking anyone who carefully analyzes the play of wooded foothills go will summarize the player is on RUG Delver lol. This is the exact opposite effect I'm desiring. A really good player and friend of mine also noted that wooded foothills into either Tropical Island or Volcanic Island solidifies me as being RUG Delver which seems less than ideal.

Flooded strand as the next option brings to the table the bluffing UWX Stoneblade or Miracles. If we fetch Tropical Island then people will probably be able to put us on RUG since no one plays Bant. Fetching up a Volcanic Island though does allow us to conceal what we're truly playing a bit more than wooded foothills does.

Polluted Delta can represent a variety of decks. Everything from Grixis Delver to combo to BUG Delver/Shardless etc. I think this is a huge reason to play at least some number of Deltas. Especially being able to fetch Volcanic into Ponder as a strong combo bluff. I'm also not 100% sure since everyone I play against knows what I'm on a mile away, but I feel people will be more inclined to jump the gun if they see Delta go.*

Finally Scalding Tarn offers an incentive because it's the second fetch most closely related to combo. In addition it bluffs Grixis builds well. The one issue I have with it is Scalding Tarn is also closely associated with RUG Delver.

These are all marginal and only relevant turns 1 - 2, but I would people's honest opinions. Currently I've been running Flooded Strands and Polluted Deltas, but the tournaments I've normally gone to are small (lots of scouting) or people already know me. With a large event coming up where neither of those cases will be relevant I'm curious what your thoughts are and what your go to fetch configuration would be. Currently I'm thinking about: 4 Scalding Tarn, 4 Polluted Delta. I am wondering if there's a better mix of fetches that would be more misleading and thus do a better job at throwing the opponent off.

* This post is loosely based on Drew Levin's RUG Delver Primer. I definitely agree that Misty Rainforest screams RUG Delver, but Scalding Tarn I feel can strongly be associated with Storm or Show and Tell variants.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27315_The-Road-To-DC--Your-Delver-Primer.html

[Jesture]

Might be a local thing, but Wooded Foothills is definitely not a signal for RUG Delver. The top tier green based decks are Elves, R/G lands and Infect while Burn and Imperial Painter are both base red.

Different fetch combinations are useful for bluffing different things. If you wanted a stronger game against fast combo, I'd register the Foothills as a R/G fetch is much more appealing to throw a risky hand into than any blue fetch.

If you're trying to get people to play into Stifle, you could roll with some combination of Polluted Delta and either Tarn or Misty to bluff another delver variant.

Strand/Delta is what I've seen most people go with, as the deck plays neither white or black. That said, it's pretty telling of RUG/BUG when someone leads t1 Strand Delver, at which point I'm not sure if you're really getting an advantage from your fetch selection.

[keys]

Personally I've never been a huge fan of it. Most of the match ups you want it in are other delver decks that are prone to wasteland right? The problem with that is most other delver decks are running deathrite. Now I know if deathrite is active we're probably losing and that's a fair point. That aside essentially in all the match ups you want it you get a very small window to try and apply it. On top of that it's completely dead without waste. It just has always seemed to cute for me, but that's my personal preference.

Thank you. I've always felt the same, but I keep seeing it in decklists. Either I'm misjudging its usefulness or they're playing the mirror a lot more often than I am...?

[poxy14]

i love wooded foothills, since it always presents a non blue deck especially when your not known piloting blue based decks. several times ive experienced my opponents to quickly fetch upon me landing a foothill, only to be stifled. my current configuration in my rug deck is (4wooded, 1 tarn, 1 misty, 1delta, 1strand)

[Contract Killer]

Might be a local thing, but Wooded Foothills is definitely not a signal for RUG Delver. The top tier green based decks are Elves, R/G lands and Infect while Burn and Imperial Painter are both base red.

Different fetch combinations are useful for bluffing different things. If you wanted a stronger game against fast combo, I'd register the Foothills as a R/G fetch is much more appealing to throw a risky hand into than any blue fetch.

If you're trying to get people to play into Stifle, you could roll with some combination of Polluted Delta and either Tarn or Misty to bluff another delver variant.

Strand/Delta is what I've seen most people go with, as the deck plays neither white or black. That said, it's pretty telling of RUG/BUG when someone leads t1 Strand Delver, at which point I'm not sure if you're really getting an advantage from your fetch selection.

Maybe I just overthink how obvious or obscure wooded foothills is. I just feel that the decks it represents Elves, RG Lands, Infect and Burn all have an absurd amount of one drops. This makes me feel that foothills go despite the colors being concealed would lead to opponents thinking something is up.


Thank you. I've always felt the same, but I keep seeing it in decklists. Either I'm misjudging its usefulness or they're playing the mirror a lot more often than I am...?

I think the best way to describe Loam is that you have to build your whole game around that card. There's a lot of things that have to be going right for it to be good:
We need pressure on the board
We can't be behind ie they have goyf we have delver
Deathrite can't be in play
and worst of all we can't be behind
All those requirements have to be met before even casting loam will do anything. On top of that one should also consider what could go wrong if you're at parity. If they counter it and land a Goyf can you recover? Which after saying that I think it can just be classified in the "win more" column.

It's definitely a powerful sideboard card and I might just be to apprehensive at leaving games to chance (yes I know that sounds hypocritical). I've never really bothered to test it thoroughly, but it's still very powerful and worth consideration if you know there will be lots of delver, shardless, esper stoneblade.


i love wooded foothills, since it always presents a non blue deck especially when your not known piloting blue based decks. several times ive experienced my opponents to quickly fetch upon me landing a foothill, only to be stifled. my current configuration in my rug deck is (4wooded, 1 tarn, 1 misty, 1delta, 1strand)

Yeah I think I might just over simplify what wooded foothills pass could be perceived as. I do think on the other hand that delta should be other fetch. At worst you fetch up trop/volc and can represent bug/grixis respectively. The other possibility is you get to play delta go and bluff ANT which might incentivize some players to think they need to find a threat quickly and carelessly fetch into our stifle.

[tescrin]

I think the best way to describe Loam is that you have to build your whole game around that card. There's a lot of things that have to be going right for it to be good:
We need pressure on the board
We can't be behind ie they have goyf we have delver
Deathrite can't be in play
and worst of all we can't be behind
All those requirements have to be met before even casting loam will do anything. On top of that one should also consider what could go wrong if you're at parity. If they counter it and land a Goyf can you recover? Which after saying that I think it can just be classified in the "win more" column.
Really depends on the deck. Obviously having DRS with Loam allows the broken:
T1 Fetch, DRS
T2, Wasteland, Loam back two lands

I've gotten scoops to that opening. In RUG.. it's a way to break parity if you're both drawing dead due to each of you countering/killing eachother's stuff. Loam is pretty live IMO, on that board state because you can threaten them to have no lands for the rest of the game and then start finding your threats after you've gotten to that point.

Loam is also much more powerful next to planeswalkers (liliana) not only due to synergy, but so you can do multiple things a turn.

I think in RUG i'd avoid the 1-of loam for a Library. Less reliable for card advantage, but applicable to a wider range of matchups; even against combo/miracles at times (so you can draw gas)

EDIT: It also helps flip late delvers, find land when you've been wasted out, find gas when you're flooding, etc..

[guybrush3]

What you think about this decklest with KIORA:wink:?
I will test it tonight. It's of course a variation of it with Orcs+Kiora package ramp combo on turn 2.
Always wanted to play orcs and i think they stick in a Delver deck cuz of colors and counters.

Kiora goes well with the orc , you untap him and use him to defend here for 1 turn (or more).
You will also have one mana free to cast Delver + Kiora or Mongoose + Kiora or 1cmc card + Kiora :) ...
You could also do a super turn 2 by sacking 2 lands for total 9 mana (4 for kora + 5 whatever).
Kiora goes well with pun fire package cuz u can untap Grove with the +1 ab.
Her -2 second ability allows you to search for creatures on turn 3 and cast them easily since they are all under 2 mana. Plus she feeds the graveyard for tarmo and moongose.
She also has good synergy with life from the loam if it end into the graveyard (to get sacked lands back or wastelands or whatever u eventually need if short on mana), and also with punishing fire since you can get them back with Grove.
Kiora is blue so it sticks with force of will (on turn 2 its good to counter something with daze FOW or spellsnare in case they counter your Kiora...it will be bad loosing a land with the orc that way)

However even without a turn2 orc+kiora the deck still goes for his way.
Orcs and other creatures are still good after turn 3 with jittes equipped on them.

I won't even consider her 8/8 ab since I don't think you will ever do it , but hey, if u need she also does that.

I understand the chance to have 2 lands and kiora and orc and a counterspell on turn 2 are very low but as i said you still have the whole delver core package to hit the opponent.
Just an idea, let me know if you like it:) and if we can adjust it or fix it to allow it to work somehow:cool:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Orcish Lumberjack
4 Tarmogoyf


Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Fire / ice
4 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Spell Pierce


Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Lands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills


Planeswalkers
4 Kiora, Master of the Depths


http://www.essentialmagic.com/Decks/View.asp?ID=1040395 if u want to deck analize it.:frown:

[keys]

http://i.imgur.com/nCHO0.jpg

[Whitefaces]

Troll, surely?

[tescrin]

Could be, but take it half serious for a moment so it can be debunked. No reason to treat the deck as religious:

Koira is mostly good for her -2; thus you want to maximize that.
Issue: Having 30 sorceries/instants in the deck means you have a reasonable chance to whiff on getting *any* cards. Half of the other time you'll be getting a land. Filtering to get lands is not quite where this decks wants to be doing

Solution:
If you want to run Kiora, she's probably best in Elves, where you're nigh guaranteed 1 hit, while having an OK chance of 2 hits; of which your 1 hit will almost assuredly be a creature. They can also cast her reliably T2 without CDA and can probably make use of her untap abilities to combo off:

H.Druid, Sentinel, Ranger, 1 regular land, 1 cradle, (Koira, GSZ or hoof in hand)
tap 3 and regular land, play kiora
Untaps Sentinel for free, Tap cradle for 3, untap druid and cradle with kiora, return the land with Ranger and untap him, tap the 3 elves for 3 more mana (floating 6), tap cradle for 3 more: GSZ for hoof. (Albeit, only attacking for 15.)


Either way; sacrificing your lands in RUG isn't what you want to be doing and ramping is even more backwards; because the deck is built to play 1 mana spells while keeping your opponent's mana messed up. It would honestly make more sense to run Rishadan Ports, ghost quarters, or similar, than Koiras.

[guybrush3]

Could be, but take it half serious for a moment so it can be debunked. No reason to treat the deck as religious:

Koira is mostly good for her -2; thus you want to maximize that.
Issue: Having 30 sorceries/instants in the deck means you have a reasonable chance to whiff on getting *any* cards. Half of the other time you'll be getting a land. Filtering to get lands is not quite where this decks wants to be doing

Solution:
If you want to run Kiora, she's probably best in Elves, where you're nigh guaranteed 1 hit, while having an OK chance of 2 hits; of which your 1 hit will almost assuredly be a creature. They can also cast her reliably T2 without CDA and can probably make use of her untap abilities to combo off:

H.Druid, Sentinel, Ranger, 1 regular land, 1 cradle, (Koira, GSZ or hoof in hand)
tap 3 and regular land, play kiora
Untaps Sentinel for free, Tap cradle for 3, untap druid and cradle with kiora, return the land with Ranger and untap him, tap the 3 elves for 3 more mana (floating 6), tap cradle for 3 more: GSZ for hoof. (Albeit, only attacking for 15.)


Either way; sacrificing your lands in RUG isn't what you want to be doing and ramping is even more backwards; because the deck is built to play 1 mana spells while keeping your opponent's mana messed up. It would honestly make more sense to run Rishadan Ports, ghost quarters, or similar, than Koiras.

Thank for the reply. You are actually right. I don't play rug so i'm not used to it. However i'm quite experienced with mtg decks and cards. What I wanted to do is fit kiora in a green red blue deck so i thought canadiam rug was the better option.
I would like to keep the counter block , the grove punishinf fire one and the x4 orc ... All the rest is under costruction. Maybe it should focus more on creatures since her -2 ability. A rug zoo with counters maybe? Is that possibile?Still figuring out how to build it. Sometimes i get fed up with classic legacy decks we played for ages . It's nice to create new decks.. Maybe this is the wrong thread ;)
Sorry

[tescrin]

Thank for the reply. You are actually right. I don't play rug so i'm not used to it. However i'm quite experienced with mtg decks and cards. What I wanted to do is fit kiora in a green red blue deck so i thought canadiam rug was the better option.
I would like to keep the counter block , the grove punishinf fire one and the x4 orc ... All the rest is under costruction. Maybe it should focus more on creatures since her -2 ability. A rug zoo with counters maybe? Is that possibile?Still figuring out how to build it. Sometimes i get fed up with classic legacy decks we played for ages . It's nice to create new decks.. Maybe this is the wrong thread ;)
Sorry

I think the Elves approach works because the -2 ability has utility and the +1 is essentially adding Dark Ritual to your deck, or multiple dark rituals if you have cradle (as the above example shows that Elves went from bottle-necked at 7 mana, to having 9 (after spending 4)
If you want her in a RUG deck, I'll point out that the initial difficulty is that you start with ~12 blue spells, 4 removal, and then probably 4-8 more spells. This is because Force, Brainstorm, and then just running enough blue. Then next bit is you want some reason for untapping creatures and lands to be very powerful, as well as the -2 to be reliable.

To make the untap powerful; it's probably because you're running a mana-dork (Hierarch? DRS?) or powerful utility lands (can't think of one that works here though) and the main issue is that with the exception of Elves or some such; 4 mana is already supposed to be your game-ending spell; 3 mana is often supposed to be your game ending spell; so 4 shouldn't be ramping into yet-another-huge-spell unless that's already your M.O. (Nic Fit, Elves)

Playing her in RUG just because of the Orcish Lumberjack means you probably want some kind of.. Sneak-Attack deck? But that begs the question why you'd want Kiora in a deck with Sneak Attack when you could just T2 Sneak attack, Lotus Petal, Worldspine Wurm, win.

The only synergy I see here is:
Tap land for mana (1)
Sac it to Lumberjack (4)
Tap another land for mana (5)
untap both and tap the land (6)
sac it to lumberjack (9)

And.. ok, 9 mana is pretty huge; but what do you want to do with it now that you've costed yourself 2 cards? Better be pretty game-ending to risk that; and uniquely game ending so there's a reason to do that instead of just win the game at 3-5 mana.

Aside from that; you could make your own version of Nic Fit without black, using Punishing Fire and Pyroclasm effects to kill your Explorer and feed your Lumberjack. Doing this in the right sequence could net you 8 mana T3 pretty reasonably with a good hand:

T1 Land, Explorer
T2 Land, Clasm, 2 Lands, Lumberjack
T3 Land (5) + Lumberjack-sac brings you to 8...Gaea's Revenge?

[guybrush3]

Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?:eyebrow:

[Jaytron]

Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?:eyebrow:

Sounds pretty terrible.

You should maybe play RUG delver a bit instead of just throwing random cards out there dude.

[PhanTom_lt]

Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?:eyebrow:


You know that Tarmogoyf is almost too expensive to cast for this deck?

[Ricardio]

So I know this is done to death on the source but I am only new to this deck. Not legacy or the source. I'm not gonna make changes to the deck because I know better. I am however building this deck in anticipation that I will be going to Columbus and Chiba next year and since I have hated and appreciated this deck for its existence, I have decided to embrace the dark side. I also feel this deck rewards absolute tight play which is something I find refreshing. I understand the deck is 54 and then 6 flex. At this moment in time, I am at 2 dismember, 2 pierce, 1 spell snare and 1 forked bolt. I think forked is dubiously underpowered but I understand the necessity.
As for the sb, I will try to piggy back off the louder voices in this thread. I like to share reports as often as possible and I hope we can improve the deck further.

In regards to the person wanting to jam pw, play the stock list and see where the deck works, finding first hand is the best learning method. I am also beyond surprised at the response to what I perceived as subtle madness. Good on you all.

[Contract Killer]

I went to gp SeaTac and finished 8-5 drop.
Day 1
2 byes
R3 shardless 2/0
R4 Chalice Merfolk 1/2
R5 Elves 2/0
R6 Maverick 2/0
R7 mirror 1/2
R8 shardless 2/0
R9 miracles 2/1

Day 2
R1 demons run show and tell 2/0
R2 Jund 1/2 knocked out of contention for top 8
R3 Reanimator 0/2
R4 storm 1/2 out of contention for any prizes
Drop

I'll be posting a more detailed report later. I was going to at least make to 32 but oh well. In all honesty the matches that I did lose Merfolk, mirror, and Jund were all pretty much out of my hands. That aside I won a lot of bad and hard match ups.

[Contract Killer]

So I know this is done to death on the source but I am only new to this deck. Not legacy or the source. I'm not gonna make changes to the deck because I know better. I am however building this deck in anticipation that I will be going to Columbus and Chiba next year and since I have hated and appreciated this deck for its existence, I have decided to embrace the dark side. I also feel this deck rewards absolute tight play which is something I find refreshing. I understand the deck is 54 and then 6 flex. At this moment in time, I am at 2 dismember, 2 pierce, 1 spell snare and 1 forked bolt. I think forked is dubiously underpowered but I understand the necessity.
As for the sb, I will try to piggy back off the louder voices in this thread. I like to share reports as often as possible and I hope we can improve the deck further.

In regards to the person wanting to jam pw, play the stock list and see where the deck works, finding first hand is the best learning method. I am also beyond surprised at the response to what I perceived as subtle madness. Good on you all.
Welcome to the dark side as you call it. MD I currently run with is 2 dismember, 2 pierce, 2 snare. Forked bolt is good but I really like the 2nd abate for the miracles match up (counterbalance, snap) and added goyf insurance.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

[tescrin]

Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?:eyebrow:

I think it should be clarified; this is literally JUST RUG Delver; not RUG-all-the-decks. There actually is some RUG Delver list (IIRC) with punishing fire (called "Next Level RUG"?), but even then, that's it's own thing. The Junk/Rock thread, for example, has a lot of diversity because it rarely sees Top 8s, and same goes for Pox or other T2.5 or less decks.

This deck, however, has a tried and true history of beating up on people, even before Delver. With lists that are almost identical popping up at tournament after tournament all the way up to (and through?) the Treasure Cruise meta. It's literally a thread to discuss *just* that deck; because it's solid until proven otherwise.

You can take a few routes to learn about legacy; mine (and apparently yours) is the unpopular
"play a bunch of garbage and learn from the experience of getting trashed that 5-drops are bad"; or there's the
"Play something good and learn from the experience of getting trashed the subtleties of the format."

The best advice I can give is just play, good or bad decks.

[Ricardio]

I went to gp SeaTac and finished 8-5 drop.
Day 1
2 byes
R3 shardless 2/0
R4 Chalice Merfolk 1/2
R5 Elves 2/0
R6 Maverick 2/0
R7 mirror 1/2
R8 shardless 2/0
R9 miracles 2/1

Day 2
R1 demons run show and tell 2/0
R2 Jund 1/2 knocked out of contention for top 8
R3 Reanimator 0/2
R4 storm 1/2 out of contention for any prizes
Drop

I'll be posting a more detailed report later. I was going to at least make to 32 but oh well. In all honesty the matches that I did lose Merfolk, mirror, and Jund were all pretty much out of my hands. That aside I won a lot of bad and hard match ups.

Do you remember the jund player?

[Contract Killer]

Do you remember the jund player?
Not off the top of my head but he's in my notes. G1 he got a game loss because of deck registration error so we went into a blind g2 with him otp. I lost that game because of a unintutive line I needed to take. G3 I was in a mull to 5 proceeded to stone rain 4 times over the first 5 turns and didn't get there. I'll go more into it when I write my tournament report.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

[Contract Killer]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/09/5094b121dac7e7ba5cff9ce780b37892.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/09/b8af825422f7cdb76fcb936b029aa75d.jpg

Most importantly I got this signed by Nils and Jacob which completely made my day :D

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[poxy14]

@ Contractkiller: congrats nonetheless, just short buddy... just short. youve got some real tough matchups there... shardless, maverick... glad you pulled it off. reanimator is beatable but u have to play tight game1, after that our deck is much more equipped (i always have 3 slots in my GYhate, in any deck i play) this is where the 3 pierce, snareless built shines... same way with your storm matchup, though snare has more targets here. will check your posted report soon.

btw, awesome playmat man!

[Ricardio]

What cards am I hoping to hit with spell snare? What is the sb we are working with at the moment?

[Contract Killer]

@ Contractkiller: congrats nonetheless, just short buddy... just short. youve got some real tough matchups there... shardless, maverick... glad you pulled it off. reanimator is beatable but u have to play tight game1, after that our deck is much more equipped (i always have 3 slots in my GYhate, in any deck i play) this is where the 3 pierce, snareless built shines... same way with your storm matchup, though snare has more targets here. will check your posted report soon.

btw, awesome playmat man!

Yeah reanimator isn't horrible, but I feel very draw/play dependent. That game at least when I lost I know there wasn't anything I could have done differently. He thoughtseized my pierce played petal into entomb making sure he didn't have to play around daze or the chance of top decking force. Next turn he went for it grabbing elesh and got there. I'll post more about that match later g2 was spicy to say the least.

I love this playmat it is awesome hands down best thing that happened at the GP lol.


What cards am I hoping to hit with spell snare? What is the sb we are working with at the moment?

So the main contenders to get snared and watch you opponents get really sad are as follows:
Goyf
Young Pyromancer
Stoneforge
Counterbalance
Snapcaster
Baleful Strix
Infernal Tutor
And then a bunch of other 2 drops that are less common hymn, scryb ranger, GSZ for x = 1, Visionary, etc
The main point is those are the big ones and at least one of the first cards listed is played in a tier deck for the most part.

[Ricardio]

I don't wanna be a menace but there is no notes on the dnt matchup in the primer. That seems like an awful matchup.
I am fearful of it because it's just has a lot of things going on bad for us.

[Ricardio]

Just played a 10 man.
Flex were 2 forked, 2 pierce, 1 dismember, 1 snare

SB:
2 submerge
2 red blast
2 cages
1 pyrovlast
1 tnn
1 dest revel
1 grudge
1 library
1 vortex
1 surgical
1 flusterstorm
1 sulfur ele

Round 1 ANT

Game 1: I dazed his brainstorm off of t1 delver and then snagged a sea with waste and stifled his follow up fetch.
Game 2: he mulled to 6, kept a sea and 3 cantrips. i had the waste read
This matchup seems fine as long as you get the clock on t1/t2
1-0

Round 2 MUD

Game 1: I look at my opening 6 and its fine but im without protection so i grab my 7th, daze is my safety blanket. He tries to chalice, delver blind flip, wasteland does work as per usual.
Game 2: I keep threat heavy hand with no permission, he has t2 Ugin.
Game 3: I get t1 delver to flip and he goes to sphere of resis of which i force. next turn he lands trinisphere that ends up making his hand a turn slower than mine.
2-0

Round 3 Lands

Game 1: I somehow get in 9 dmg with delver and he finds the pfire. Mongoose goes through 2 mazes and bolts cleans up.
Game 2: This game dragged out so very long. I had him at 7 with tnn out and a bolt in hand but chasm was making my day harder than it should have been. he finds depth combo and marits me.
Game 3: I get an early delver out, he pfires it. I land a goyf and dodge his maze for a turn. stifle his maze trigger and then he makes the marit, i submerge before blocks and surgical his dark depths. he mazes goyf and i finally hit the goose to finish him.
3-0

Deck is strong. i am going to change a cage to a second surgical. otherwise, i am open to suggestions.

[Contract Killer]

I don't wanna be a menace but there is no notes on the dnt matchup in the primer. That seems like an awful matchup.
I am fearful of it because it's just has a lot of things going on bad for us.

It is a miserable match up unfortunately there's not much you can do about it. If you expect a lot of it at your meta pack a sulfur elemental and like 2 artifact hate cards. Boarding should be something like this
OTP - 4 force, - x pierce // + 2 rough, sulfur elemental, 2 artifact hate, Sylvan Library/Vendilion clique
OTD - 4 daze, - x pierce // + 2 rough, sulfur elemental, 2 artifact hate, Sylvan Library/Vendilion clique
I personally like having a null rod in the board. It's really helpful here turning off all there vials and equipment. If you have snares keep them they really shine in this match up. Mom should be killed on site to avoid having to pair stifle + combat damage/removal spell since that's kind of like a two for one for them. Always counter their vial if you can. Be wary of their flicker wisps since they can change the tide of the battle in an instant.
It's definitely a hard match up, but not unwinnable. Forked bolts main can definitely help, but without any dismembers/ice (I prefer the first) you're pretty cold to other goyf/angler style decks. This match up in particular rewards experience from both players from what I can tell. I've played against some DnT players that were cake walks and others that were invincible it seemed like. Just understanding the flow of that particular match up takes a while.

[Ricardio]

It is a miserable match up unfortunately there's not much you can do about it. If you expect a lot of it at your meta pack a sulfur elemental and like 2 artifact hate cards. Boarding should be something like this
OTP - 4 force, - x pierce // + 2 rough, sulfur elemental, 2 artifact hate, Sylvan Library/Vendilion clique
OTD - 4 daze, - x pierce // + 2 rough, sulfur elemental, 2 artifact hate, Sylvan Library/Vendilion clique
I personally like having a null rod in the board. It's really helpful here turning off all there vials and equipment. If you have snares keep them they really shine in this match up. Mom should be killed on site to avoid having to pair stifle + combat damage/removal spell since that's kind of like a two for one for them. Always counter their vial if you can. Be wary of their flicker wisps since they can change the tide of the battle in an instant.
It's definitely a hard match up, but not unwinnable. Forked bolts main can definitely help, but without any dismembers/ice (I prefer the first) you're pretty cold to other goyf/angler style decks. This match up in particular rewards experience from both players from what I can tell. I've played against some DnT players that were cake walks and others that were invincible it seemed like. Just understanding the flow of that particular match up takes a while.

Now I am fairly new to the deck. I understand the game plan and surface plays but I understand this deck is so rewarding because of plays below the surface and playing heads up of situations is best. Daze comes out otd in most non combo matchups? Is null rod worthy of a sideboard spot? Is clique better than tnn out of the board? He feels like the 5th goose which is usually great. Should grudge be a second destructive revelry? Rough seems great, I should probably get two of those for the board.

[Contract Killer]

Now I am fairly new to the deck. I understand the game plan and surface plays but I understand this deck is so rewarding because of plays below the surface and playing heads up of situations is best. Daze comes out otd in most non combo matchups? Is null rod worthy of a sideboard spot? Is clique better than tnn out of the board? He feels like the 5th goose which is usually great. Should grudge be a second destructive revelry? Rough seems great, I should probably get two of those for the board.

Yes daze should come out in most otd scenarios or at the very least be shaved. Null rod has earned it's spot in spades for me. It turns off top vs miracles, petal/LED against storm, Vials/equipment and some other random artifacts like EE and Thopter Foundry. The former set of cards being the huge reason why I play it since despite RUG's reputation storm isn't that great of a match up. It's by no means bad, but people over exaggerate it to be absurdly good when against a good storm pilot it's like 45/55 in RUG's favor.

TNN is better for tempo mirrors and miracles as all star blocker or another evasive threat respectively. Clique is better on paper since it has the potential to make some huge tempo swings such as ripping a miracle card out of an opponents hand with a trigger on the stack. The same can be said for responding to vials or Stoneforge. It's also a flash threat vs combo which is good. I think that just comes down to a preference and which you think you'll need more at any given weekly or 60man event.

Rough is a must as a two of in the board. I think there are definitely some match ups primarily DnT and Elves that you can't win without rough. It just helps us gain a lot of tempo by maybe netting a thalia + stoneforge or Deathrite + visionary.

Grudge and revelry are meta call dependent with Krosan grip being the safer choice. Grudge can gain value with it's flash back, but I think most stoneforge decks especially now with dig gone will revert back to some number of RIP in their boards. Reverly can get some extra damage in usually shaving a turn off our clock. It also deals with pesky RIP and a lone counterbalance if you don't have anything better to board in (and in the miracles match up there's easily 8-12 dead cards in this deck). My personal opinion is a null rod and Krosan grip in the board are able to deal with most situations and give the widest spread of coverage vs stoneforge builds, miracles and storm.

[tescrin]

Now I am fairly new to the deck. I understand the game plan and surface plays but I understand this deck is so rewarding because of plays below the surface and playing heads up of situations is best. Daze comes out otd in most non combo matchups? Is null rod worthy of a sideboard spot? Is clique better than tnn out of the board? He feels like the 5th goose which is usually great. Should grudge be a second destructive revelry? Rough seems great, I should probably get two of those for the board.

Don't necessarily go to 0 daze; as Killer implies; you may keep 1-3 depending on the amount you're siding in, the next-level knowledge that your opponent will play into them more often in G2 (and be pissed off about it), and how "I lose if this resolves" their stuff is. For instance, I'd keep them in against MUD as they'll chalice or do other huge things every turn and their plan is "Fuck it, he'll run out of counterspells", and Loam decks (despite it being non-obvious) are ok for Daze if you catch a Loam early; making it a nice 2-of or something I think.

Opposing Delvers it's alright as a 2 of also I think, as they'll be playing a tight curve and Dazing you (meaning you'll each have a low number of lands.) You can also Daze something to save an island you need for next turn if you're anticipating it being wasted later that turn (or the following turn.)

Pretty much always remove them OTD against attrition decks. Not only are they packing Decay and DRS 90% of the time so you have a hard time landing Daze. I may be wrong, but I'd hazard this goes for facing BUG Delver as well.

[Contract Killer]

Don't necessarily go to 0 daze; as Killer implies; you may keep 1-3 depending on the amount you're siding in, the next-level knowledge that your opponent will play into them more often in G2 (and be pissed off about it), and how "I lose if this resolves" their stuff is. For instance, I'd keep them in against MUD as they'll chalice or do other huge things every turn and their plan is "Fuck it, he'll run out of counterspells", and Loam decks (despite it being non-obvious) are ok for Daze if you catch a Loam early; making it a nice 2-of or something I think.

Opposing Delvers it's alright as a 2 of also I think, as they'll be playing a tight curve and Dazing you (meaning you'll each have a low number of lands.) You can also Daze something to save an island you need for next turn if you're anticipating it being wasted later that turn (or the following turn.)

Pretty much always remove them OTD against attrition decks. Not only are they packing Decay and DRS 90% of the time so you have a hard time landing Daze. I may be wrong, but I'd hazard this goes for facing BUG Delver as well.

Yeah I think I may have been unclear when I said to shave or cut them. It just depends on the match-up. I would use the following as a guide for deciding to cut/shave daze otd.
Delver, combo, anything with chalice you're usually fine keeping all the dazes.

Stoneblade, Jund, shardless you usually want to shave at least 2 if not more due to the game going long. They have inevitability on their side and can wait it out so daze is usually bad here.

Miracles is probably the one match up I'm the most adament about cutting daze completely otd or otp. It just doesn't make sense to keep it in when we can never pressure them fast enough to run into it. In addition to that we can't effectively pressure their mana.

[Ricardio]

So I have been thinking about it and I really like gitaxian probe as one or 2 flex spots. Information is paramount in this deck and I know in my meta, snare is not very strong. Tuesday I am thinking 2 fork, 2 g probe, 2 pierce.

Haven't decided on an fully although this week I will be playing roughs because I forgot about them last week. Luckily, we dodged hard. I do however like tnn more than clique still even though it contradicts my feelings on probe. I just view it as fragile and I already have the bugs to worry about. I will try the sb you all suggest seeing as you know better than me.

[Ricardio]

Played in another 10 man.
Flex were: 2 g probe, 2 forked, 2 pierce.

1-2 miracles.
Game 1: I got him with 2 mongoose and a fow on terminus
Game 2 : I drew 9 lands.
Game 3: I drew 7 lands. He had answers for both my threats.
Daze, pierce out. 3 blast, library, cortex, sulfur in
2-1 alluren
Game 1: otp daze his Drs. Stifle his fetch. Fow his alluren. Pierce the follow up alluren. Delver goes the distance.
Game 2: I draw 9 lands.
Game 3: he makes a weird deluge play to wipe a mongoose. We draw blanks for a few turns. I hit gas and kill him. He drew 14/21 lands. I drew 11/18 lands.
-2 daze, 2 pierce. 2 rough, 1 destructive, 1 ancient grudge.
2-1 lands
Game 1: otp I delver pass. Daze exploration. Waste his taiga on my turn. He fails to find a colored source and dies to flipped delver and mongoose.
Game 2: he pfires delver and marit lages me.
Game 3: I keep waste, goose, fow, fow, bolt, trop, ponder. I play ponder and pass. He casts mana bond so I force.
3 gooses later, he shows me just how poorly the game would have went had I not countered the mana bond. T2 20/20 seems strong.
-4 daze, 2 pierce, 1 g probe. +2 submerge, destructive, grudge, surgical, vortex, library
Esper mentor 2-0
He was paired up to me and gave me the win. I asked to play but he had fallen asleep in the chair. Haha

Aside from flooding into oblivion, the deck felt great. I assume I am not shuffling as much as I should. Otherwise, the deck is still great.

[Contract Killer]

Played in another 10 man.
Flex were: 2 g probe, 2 forked, 2 pierce.

1-2 miracles.
Game 1: I got him with 2 mongoose and a fow on terminus
Game 2 : I drew 9 lands.
Game 3: I drew 7 lands. He had answers for both my threats.
Daze, pierce out. 3 blast, library, cortex, sulfur in
2-1 alluren
Game 1: otp daze his Drs. Stifle his fetch. Fow his alluren. Pierce the follow up alluren. Delver goes the distance.
Game 2: I draw 9 lands.
Game 3: he makes a weird deluge play to wipe a mongoose. We draw blanks for a few turns. I hit gas and kill him. He drew 14/21 lands. I drew 11/18 lands.
-2 daze, 2 pierce. 2 rough, 1 destructive, 1 ancient grudge.
2-1 lands
Game 1: otp I delver pass. Daze exploration. Waste his taiga on my turn. He fails to find a colored source and dies to flipped delver and mongoose.
Game 2: he pfires delver and marit lages me.
Game 3: I keep waste, goose, fow, fow, bolt, trop, ponder. I play ponder and pass. He casts mana bond so I force.
3 gooses later, he shows me just how poorly the game would have went had I not countered the mana bond. T2 20/20 seems strong.
-4 daze, 2 pierce, 1 g probe. +2 submerge, destructive, grudge, surgical, vortex, library
Esper mentor 2-0
He was paired up to me and gave me the win. I asked to play but he had fallen asleep in the chair. Haha

Aside from flooding into oblivion, the deck felt great. I assume I am not shuffling as much as I should. Otherwise, the deck is still great.

Congrats man. As for the miracles match up it's a tough one. I would recommend shaving the forked bolts, and wastes prior to pierce or daze. I mean you really don't want any mix of bolt, waste, daze in postboard. If you don't have that much to bring in, though I think wasteland is the first on the chopping block along with the secondary removal.

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[Ricardio]

Congrats man. As for the miracles match up it's a tough one. I would recommend shaving the forked bolts, and wastes prior to pierce or daze. I mean you really don't want any mix of bolt, waste, daze in postboard. If you don't have that much to bring in, though I think wasteland is the first on the chopping block along with the secondary removal.

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Wasteland comes out in what matchups? What sb are you working with at the moment?
I feel like daze is great in all aspects but certain matchups. Catching your opponent or making them play around it.

[Contract Killer]

Wasteland comes out in what matchups? What sb are you working with at the moment?
I feel like daze is great in all aspects but certain matchups. Catching your opponent or making them play around it.
I was referring to your miracles board of taking out pierce and daze. I think wasteland and forked bolt are worse than those. Which could be incorrect depending on how careless the miracles player is and if they fetch duals aggressively.

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[Themucher]

This has probably been covered before but what is the reasoning behind 0 snapcasters in the deck? Seems like getting to snap a bolt stifle or brainstorm would be very powerful

[KobeBryan]

This has probably been covered before but what is the reasoning behind 0 snapcasters in the deck? Seems like getting to snap a bolt stifle or brainstorm would be very powerful

3 mana sucks

[Jaytron]

This has probably been covered before but what is the reasoning behind 0 snapcasters in the deck? Seems like getting to snap a bolt stifle or brainstorm would be very powerful

Besides 3 mana sucking, what would you even drop?

[Ricardio]

Besides 3 mana sucking, what would you even drop?

The flex slots. The problem lies with snap being a 3 mana spell like aforementioned. V clique would most likely be better and in the vain of value, snap seems win more. Albeit an allstar in modern, it loses power in legacy but especially so when we are already very graveyard dependent.

Side note: I'm smoking a cigar and I just tried to smoke my phone instead of submit this comment. I'm an adult, damn it.

Important note: I am putting this deck together(boring lands atm) to play at gp Columbus and chiba next year. Hopefully I will see some of you handsome rug mages there.(not being sexist, just a saying. I try to be pc)

[cheerios]

besides being 3 mana, I also don't like how Snap is reactive

cheers

[Jaytron]

The flex slots. The problem lies with snap being a 3 mana spell like aforementioned. V clique would most likely be better and in the vain of value, snap seems win more. Albeit an allstar in modern, it loses power in legacy but especially so when we are already very graveyard dependent.

Side note: I'm smoking a cigar and I just tried to smoke my phone instead of submit this comment. I'm an adult, damn it.

Important note: I am putting this deck together(boring lands atm) to play at gp Columbus and chiba next year. Hopefully I will see some of you handsome rug mages there.(not being sexist, just a saying. I try to be pc)

LOL at smoking your phone.

I want to make it out to GP Columbus next year. Not sure which delver deck I'll be playing, but I can guarantee you I'll be playing some iteration of delver with stifles. (Basically grixis vs rug)

[Contract Killer]

Hey guys I'm trying to get my gp tournament report up. Sorry for the delay in just in the middle of moving. Hoping to have it done before Thanksgiving.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played kinda non-fancy 56+ 2/2/2 Pierce/Snare/FB build on Thursday and was handed my ass on a silver plate on several occasions, finishing the evening with a 2/2 finish.
I'm less and less liking the inability of RUG to make anything meaningful on mid-late game (and yep, we sometimes get that far into the game), and I also seriously hate Abrupt Decay.
I'm considering Divert, however that's a card you need asap, and as such, it should be played as three-of at least, while it's totally not worth the slots.

Fact is that one of my lost matches was to DnT with 7-8 strip mine,s so it's not like I'd be much better of with Divert.

Btw, are any other tools to save the Goyf? I'm considering Reality Ripple or even some Boomerang effect, as both of them are versatile.

[keys]

I played kinda non-fancy 56+ 2/2/2 Pierce/Snare/FB build on Thursday and was handed my ass on a silver plate on several occasions, finishing the evening with a 2/2 finish.
I'm less and less liking the inability of RUG to make anything meaningful on mid-late game (and yep, we sometimes get that far into the game), and I also seriously hate Abrupt Decay.
I'm considering Divert, however that's a card you need asap, and as such, it should be played as three-of at least, while it's totally not worth the slots.

Fact is that one of my lost matches was to DnT with 7-8 strip mine,s so it's not like I'd be much better of with Divert.

Btw, are any other tools to save the Goyf? I'm considering Reality Ripple or even some Boomerang effect, as both of them are versatile.

Well you could play hooting mandrills and simic charm if you really want to beat abrupt decay.

[ThiefSlayer]

Isn't apostle's blessing better than Reality Ripple in this situation? Ripple can also hit lands and evade sweepers, but I think holding 2 mana up is kinda situational. Also, if the opponent decays on the attack step, you still do attack.

[wcm8]

I think this deck wants some sort of late-game trump card to get out of difficult situations.

The simplest option is to run a 13th creature. Another possibility is to instead include an enchantment that functions like a threat -- Sylvan Library, Sulfuric Vortex. Alternatively, a well-timed Price of Progress can often close out games. Manlands are similarly useful -- Faerie Conclave or Lumbering Falls.

It's expensive, but perhaps a planeswalker would be good -- Jace TMS, Garruk, Xenagos or Chandra could help beat stuff like Miracles.

If the goal is to win quickly then I think Thought Scour may be needed to pump up Mongoose ASAP. And then run 3-4 chain lightning to reach 20 damage quickly.

[Ricardio]

I think this deck wants some sort of late-game trump card to get out of difficult situations.

The simplest option is to run a 13th creature. Another possibility is to instead include an enchantment that functions like a threat -- Sylvan Library, Sulfuric Vortex. Alternatively, a well-timed Price of Progress can often close out games. Manlands are similarly useful -- Faerie Conclave or Lumbering Falls.

It's expensive, but perhaps a planeswalker would be good -- Jace TMS, Garruk, Xenagos or Chandra could help beat stuff like Miracles.

If the goal is to win quickly then I think Thought Scour may be needed to pump up Mongoose ASAP. And then run 3-4 chain lightning to reach 20 damage quickly.

Hooting mandrills in this thought scour build?

[Jandrosaurus]

Doing this so Jaytron will stop bugging me. This is the first of 2 reports, this being for a $1k at Channel Fireball on Sunday. I know I need to start taking better notes between rounds -- this is mostly just from memory, so bear with me.

Decklist:

Normal 54 + 2 Spell Snare/2 Dismember/2 Forked Bolt

Sideboard:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library


CFB $1k - 4-2, 12th out of 45

Round 1 vs Grixis Delver
G1: I keep a mediocre 7 of delver, fetch, volc, ponder, goose, 2 cards I forget. I manage to keep him off land with some top-decked wastes/stifles. Flipped delver and goose take it home.
G2: He rips apart my hand and I die to zombie fish.
G3: See game 2.

1-2; 0-1

Round 2 vs Mentor Miracles
G1: I mull to 6 (no land) but manage to land a t2 delver after stifling his fetch. It flips naturally and I ride it and an eventual tarmogoyf home. His draws were pretty poor, in fairness.
SB: -2 daze, -2 dismember, -2 FoW, | +2 needle, +2 REB/Pyro, +1 Sulphur Elemental, +1 Sylvan Library
G2: I keep a decent 7 with Delver, Goose, 2x land, Ponder, Stifle, Stifle. I play out my threats and draw into Needle. I play it, and it meets a FoW. Delver flips, then eats a Swords. I play Ponder, find another Delver and some spells to flip it. I play it and a goyf, always leaving up U for Stifle. Next turn, I get to Stifle a Terminus Miracle trigger and waste a Tundra. Delver and Goyf get my opponent to "lethal-next-turn". He finds another Terminus that I Stifle the miracle trigger for again. He scoops. Note: at some point, after he already had 4 lands, he played a fetch. I declined to Stifle it in favor of miracle triggers -- glad I did.

2-0; 1-1

Round 3 vs Mana Dredge
G1: I've never played this matchup before and I just watch as my opponent does dredge things. I get him to around 10 life before getting overrun by 2/2 zombies and Ichorids.
SB: -2 dismember, -2 spell snare | +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +2 Rough // Tumble | +1 Needle (Cephalid and Putrid Imp? I wasn't sure about this)
G2: My opponent plays an older printing of Gemstone Mine that read: "When ~ comes into play, put three mining counters on it." and passes the turn. I ask to read the card as I've never seen it before. I play a Volcanic and pass, with stifle up. He plays another Gemstone Mine and I attempt to Stifle what I thought was an ETB trigger based on the wording of the card. We both discuss the interaction, he reads the card and says "yeah looks like an ETB trigger, I guess that works. Nice play." **Note: I later looked this up and realized we were both wrong and the card had be reprinted with "~ comes into play with three mining counters on it." essentially getting rid of any notion of a triggered effect. Oops. Sorry, round 3 opponent!** He plays Faithless Looting, which I Daze, and passes the turn. At this point, I'm able to drop 2 goyfs. He plays Breakthrough and doesn't hit much gas and passes the turn. This was a misplay on his part because he essentially didn't do anything but grow my goyfs to 5/6's. He's at 12 life. I swing for 10 and bolt him.
G3: I keep a decent 6. My opponent has a relatively slow start for the first 2 turns while I make land drops and cantrip. On turn 3, my opponent Cabal Therapy's me, naming Grafdigger's Cage. I reveal my hand with 2x Goose, a land, a bolt, and a Goyf. He doesn't have a creature to flash back cabal at this point and passes the turn. I draw my 1-of Grafdigger's Cage and play it. He had a sad. I eventually get 2 Goyfs on the field and ride them to victory, removing his Ichorids with Forked Bolts.

2-1; 2-1

Round 4 vs Esper Mentor
I don't really remember this match much. I took it in game 3 off good 'ol fashioned mana denial and Delver beats. I made 2 misplays. The first was in G2, letting my opponent use Deathrite Shaman to eat a land, making a second W to cast Supreme Verdict, wiping away a flipped Delver, Goyf, and Mongoose. I had Stifle in hand, but didn't use it on the DRS's mana ability. :( I never recovered. The second was shuffling away a Sulphur Elemental I found in a Ponder with two other bad cards, giving my opponent a possible out in Mentor. Thankfully, I drew a bolt even though he never found a Mentor.

2-1; 3-1

Round 5 vs TES -- I'm playing against Donnie, a guy that plays at my LGS.
G1: I fail to find much interaction and he eventually makes lots of Goblins that kill me in 2 turns.
SB: -2 Daze, -2 Dismember | +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Rough // Tumble, +1 Grafdigger's Cage
G2: Mana denial + a timely Rough // Tumble get me the win.
G3: I play a Delver on my t1 and pass. My opponent goes off T2, making 10x goblins and passes. I flip delver, attack, play my second land, cast goyf and pass. He swings and I am down to 10. On my turn I swing with Delver and Goyf for 8, combined. He's now at 9. I play a delver, leave a volc untapped and a Bolt in hand. He swing with 8 goblins. I block 1 with delver and go to 3. He's at 6 and cracks a fetch. I Stifle it. He's at 5. I untap, and swing with delver + goyf. He blocked goyf and takes 3, down to 2. I cast Ponder. The third card down is a Forked Bolt. WHEW.

2-1; 4-1

Round 6 vs 4c Delver. On the bubble - the winner goes to top8.

G1: I dont remember much except that I had a really fast start and just tempoed him out.
G2: I mulled to 6, and he ground me out. I eventually lost to zombie fish and Young Pyromancer beats.
G3: I mull to 6, keeping a hand with mostly reactionary spells: Bolt, 2x Stifle, Ponder, Forked Bolt, 1 fetch and a Wasteland. I'm able to keep him off mana with waste + stifle and bolt his early threats while trying to cantrip into a threat of my own. Suffice to say, I never found that threat. I didn't draw a creature until I was at 6 life staring down my opponent's Delver, Angler, and 2x Deathrite Shaman. I must have drawn 20+ cards without seeing more than that loan Delver, far too late. Cest la vie.

1-2; 4-2 final.

I made 12th, which was good enough to win my entry fee ($25) so I can't complain too much. It was my first real event with this deck and really only my second time playing it in the flesh (besides a handful of games on Cockatrice).

Second report to follow when it's not 12AM and I'm falling asleep at the keys.

[Jaytron]

Doing this so Jaytron will stop bugging me. This is the first of 2 reports, this being for a $1k at Channel Fireball on Sunday. I know I need to start taking better notes between rounds -- this is mostly just from memory, so bear with me.


<3 Now that you're on delver, I'm going to hound you all the time for tournament reports.

[Xerlic]

He plays another Gemstone Mine and I attempt to Stifle what I thought was an ETB trigger based on the wording of the card. We both discuss the interaction, he reads the card and says "yeah looks like an ETB trigger, I guess that works. Nice play." **Note: I later looked this up and realized we were both wrong and the card had be reprinted with "~ comes into play with three mining counters on it." essentially getting rid of any notion of a triggered effect. Oops. Sorry, round 3 opponent!**
I'm surprised your opponent didn't call a judge over just to verify that Gemstone Mine could be stifled especially with older cards. Whenever there is any type of uncertainty on how cards interact, it's always best to ask a judge.

[Jandrosaurus]

I'm surprised your opponent didn't call a judge over just to verify that Gemstone Mine could be stifled especially with older cards. Whenever there is any type of uncertainty on how cards interact, it's always best to ask a judge.

I am too. I would have in his situation. I honestly had never played or seen that card played before and it seemed pretty straight forward/intuitive enough with its templating.

[Jaytron]

I am too. I would have in his situation. I honestly had never played or seen that card played before and it seemed pretty straight forward/intuitive enough with its templating.


Jandro, I want to call you cheatyface. 100% of the time so far, you've "cheated" with the deck. Hahaha :tongue:

Although... if you didn't cheat last night, it drops to like 66%

[Jandrosaurus]

/shrug

Ok so my report for the weekly grinder isn't nearly as exciting but I played against a really sweet brew in my second match so I figured I'd write it up.

Decklist:

Normal 54 + 2 Spell Snare/1 Dismember/2 Forked Bolt/1 Spell Pierce

Sideboard (few changes from last time. I'll likely be taking out a Flusterstorm for a Null Rod for my LGS's meta):
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Submerge
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip

Round 1 vs Mana Dredge

G1: I win the die roll and keep a decent 7. Volc -> Delver, pass. My opponent plays Gemstone Mine (no trying to Stifle it, this time ;) ), Faithless Looting, dumping some dredge enablers. T2 and I draw a Wasteland for the turn. Waste his Gemstone Mine, cast Ponder, pass. My opponent plays another Gemstone Mine and another Faithless Looting starting the dredge machine. I can't quite clock him fast enough and get overwhelmed as he Cabal Therapies away a Goyf.

SB: -2 Spell Snare, -1 Dismember, -1 Daze, +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Destructive Revelry (for a LED? I was grasping here), +2 Rough // Tumble

G2: I draw a 7 with no land and mulligan. I draw 6 with Force, Force, Stifle, Ponder, Mongoose, Brainstorm. Sigh. I mulligan to 5. NOTE: I probably should have kept this hand as disrupting his first 2 plays with FoW could have really slowed his hand down and allowed me to draw into lands for either a Ponder or BS. I never recover, despite drawing a Rough // Tumble. By that time he already had 3 Bridge From Below in the yard and closes out the game fairly quickly.
0-2 (0-1)

Is this typically a difficult match for Delver? I assume it's in Dredge's favor and my opponent mentioned he likes seeing Delver decks, in general, so I'm assuming so. Should I be looking to keep hands with FoW/Daze for his T1 plays? Slowing them down as much as possible, while also having a threat of your own on board seems the way to victory, here.

Round 2 vs. Thoughtlash/Skill Borrower/Kikijiki combo. What a sweet brew!

G1: I mull to 6, keep a decent hand with some permission and a delver. My opponent plays Island, Sensei's Top, go. I blind flip Delver, attack, look at how silly this Wasteland looks in my hand, and play a ponder then pass. My opponent drops a City of Traitors and casts Skill Borrower, knowingly placing it in front of me so I can read it. I take him up on it. I have no idea what my opponent is playing at this point but after reading the card, I decide to Daze it. On my turn I Waste his city of traitors, attack for 3 and play a goyf. At some point my opponent tries to get another Skill Borrower in play that I bolt before he can do any shenanigans with. I ride the Goyf and Delver to victory.

SB: I have no idea what's going on. -1 Daze, -1 Dismember, -1 Spell Snare, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Pithing Needle. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

G2: I still don't have a clue what's going on. I continue to not let Skill Borrower resolve, but then on T4 my opponent plays a Thought Lash! Wtf is this, EDH?? A turn or so later, he is able to play a Laboratory Maniac and I see the writing on the wall if I pass the turn after not finding a Bolt for labman. Ok then! I saw a counterbalance from Skill Borrower revealing the top card so I:

SB: -1 more Spell Snare for +1 Krosan Grip.

G3: I keep a 7, my opponent mulls to 6 (or maybe it was 5). I get a T2 Delver down and my opponent manages to get a resolved Skill Borrower after I Ancient Grudged his first one and he countered a Bolt for this one. My opponent whiffs on seeing a Kikijiki or Thoughlash for a couple turns and I beat down with a flipped delver. I bolt him to 3 and it's his last turn to find something. After a Brainstorm, Skill Borrower-Sensei's Divining Top activation + Fetchland, he fails to find a Kikijiki (both were near the bottom of his deck) and I attack for lethal on the next turn. WHEW. What a fun match!

2-1 (1-1)

Round 3 vs my buddy Tyler's Affinity deck.
G1: I'm on the play and have to mull to 6 (just not my night for drawing lands!). I keep a decent start but his start is better and he's able to get an Etched Champion suited up with a Cranial Plating. Game 2!

SB: -3 FoW, -2 Stifle, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Rough // Tumble

G2: We both mull to 5 (FFS!!). I find a hand with Trop, a Delver, Ancient Grudge, Destructive Revelry, Ponder. I play Trop, Delver and pass. My opponent plays out an Ancient Tomb, Mox Opal, Ornathopter, Archbound Ravager and passes. On my T2, I draw a Wasteland, play it, and play Ponder. I find a Krosan Grip and a Volc in the three. I take the Volc and leave the Kgrip on top to flip Delver. I can't Waste my opponent's land because I need it to play Kgrip next turn. My opponent plays an artifact land and Etched Champion. He sacs his Mox Opal to Ravager and plays another Opal, pass. On my turn, I flip delver and attack. I then Kgrip the Ravager since using I don't think using Revelry or Ancient Grudge would be all that profitable, seeing as how he has time to respond. Was I wrong? He moves the 2 counters to his Etched Champion and swings in for the win 2 turns later as I find nothing to stop him. Null Rod can't come in the mail soon enough! :p

0-2 (1-2 final)

Really wasn't my night, but my second match was a lot of fun and my two friends (one being Jaytron) came up from the South Bay to play, so I can't complain too much.

[Themucher]

I'm wondering what people would recommend for a sideboard. Meta has miracles, show and tell, elves, jund, delver and deathblade. Any big cards that people would recommend?

[Contract Killer]

I'm wondering what people would recommend for a sideboard. Meta has miracles, show and tell, elves, jund, delver and deathblade. Any big cards that people would recommend?

2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 rough // tumble
2 submerge
Null rod
Krosan Grip
Sylvan Library
Sulfuric Vortex
Vendilion Clique
13/15

I would use that as a starting point.
Pyroblast/Flusterstorm: These help cover Miracles and show and tell primarily. Against Delver and Deathblade pyroblasts are usually good and flusterstorms at least vs delver are usually strictly better spell pierces.

Submerge/Rough: These help against Jund and Elves. Rough isn't that amazing vs Jund, but can be better than some of our other cards especially otd.

Sulfuric Vortex/Vendilion Clique/Sylvan Library/Null Rod/Krosan Grip: All of these cards are great vs Miracles and Deathblade. They help when the game is going long which against those two decks in particular it usually turns into long grindy games.

That would cover all those decks with an additional 2 spots left over for graveyard hate or something. You might also want another actual artifact hate card or a sulfur elemental if Maverick is going to be around. Null Rod can deal with top, batterskull and other equipment with Krosan Grip to mop up. Chalice of the Void or other Mud prison cards could be problematic with only the Krosan Grip as an answer.

[Grizzly_Bear]

What are the primary reasons to keep playing RUG over Grixis delver?

-RUG maintain a better miracles matchup
-RUG can comfortably keep playing their own sweepers, giving a better elves matchup (?!)

-Spellbased combo are essentialy the same, as the primary threat (delver) and countersuit are the same.

-Grixis is better at Everything else (?!)
- ...especially at kicking RUG up and down the street in the "mirror-match".

[plowshares]

What are the primary reasons to keep playing RUG over Grixis delver?

-RUG maintain a better miracles matchup
-RUG can comfortably keep playing their own sweepers, giving a better elves matchup (?!)

-Spellbased combo are essentialy the same, as the primary threat (delver) and countersuit are the same.

-Grixis is better at Everything else (?!)
- ...especially at kicking RUG up and down the street in the "mirror-match".

They are very different decks dude, RUG is a pure tempo deck, while grixis is more of an aggro deck. From my experience playing both decks grixis is much better against miracles. Grixis has a different plan against spell based combo due to death rite and cabal therapy in the board, and less pierces. Also, I think Canadian has an edge in the "mirror" as long as you are playing dismember for angler. Canadian is more focused on tempo and denial so it has an edge.

[sea]

They are very different decks dude, RUG is a pure tempo deck, while grixis is more of an aggro deck. From my experience playing both decks grixis is much better against miracles. Grixis has a different plan against spell based combo due to death rite and cabal therapy in the board, and less pierces. Also, I think Canadian has an edge in the "mirror" as long as you are playing dismember for angler. Canadian is more focused on tempo and denial so it has an edge.

as someone who has pretty much only played grixis or rug delver for the last few years, i totally agree with this post, except for the condition on the mirror match edge--i think rug has the edge whether it plays dismember or not. i think another big difference is that rug is stronger pre-sideboard, whereas grixis tends to have stronger options from the board, and thus be better post-board.

[iPhone7]

Hey folks, I'm just starting to get into playing Rug Delver and I'm spending my time thinking about which fetchlands to play instead of how to fill the flex slots or sideboard. Dumb, I know, but while I'm on the subject, is there any reason not to play 4 Foothills and then 1 of each blue fetch?

[skinnytalls]

Hey folks, I'm just starting to get into playing Rug Delver and I'm spending my time thinking about which fetchlands to play instead of how to fill the flex slots or sideboard. Dumb, I know, but while I'm on the subject, is there any reason not to play 4 Foothills and then 1 of each blue fetch?

Page 77 There is discussion about fetches and what to use. Personally I like Polluted Deltas and Flooded Strands. I will fetch up a volcanic 1st often to not give away my stifle as that could be any number of decks. When you fetch from a wooded foothill to a volc. or trop. people will know that your on rug delver. But if you don't fetch early it would be hard for them to put you on rug with wooded foothills. I think its just a matter of preference..

[poxy14]

i love presenting a non blue deck by having a full set of wooded as my fetches. my other 4 would be variables.

[Sunday Funday]

A list won the most recent SCG Premier IQ with the 54 + 3 spell pierce, 3 chain lightning. I love this aggro burn approach. What do you guys think? SB looks pretty standard but the Firestorm is interesting. Aside from Null Rod hating out Top, what do you guys bring it in against? I feel like Pithing Needle hate is sufficient.

[tescrin]

A list won the most recent SCG Premier IQ with the 54 + 3 spell pierce, 3 chain lightning. I love this aggro burn approach. What do you guys think? SB looks pretty standard but the Firestorm is interesting. Aside from Null Rod hating out Top, what do you guys bring it in against? I feel like Pithing Needle hate is sufficient.

I'd probably run a couple Forked Bolt and/or Chain Lightning if I ran it. I think my original RUG list had 3 SPierce and 3 Chain but it never made it to paper as I kept playing other lists.

It'll be a lot worse than Forked Bolt versions to Elves and D&T.

[keys]

Here's an interesting thought...if you had to choose a highlander sideboard, what would it be?
Example:
1 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique

[Vandalize]

Hey guys, what's the consensus about Gitaxian Probe? I've seen some lists in the past with 4, then with 3~2, then none. I think Gitaxian Probe is a double-edge sword, while it can provide vital information on how to play your spells correctly, it doesn't do anything on it's own.

I've played a local Friday Night Magic in my homecity. 3-1 in the swiss with the following list:

Lands [18]
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures [12]
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells [30]
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Tarfire
1 Dismember

Sideboard [15]
2 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Null Rod
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Sulfur Elemental

It went pretty much like this:
R1) Elves (2-0) Dice: win
G1: I beat him with Delver turn 1, double Bolt and Wasteland for Cradle. He tries to Natural Order on turn 4, but I have the Spell Pierce and he can't pay.
G2: I trade 4 Elves for Rough/Tumble and play double Goyf after using Force of Will twice (on GSZ for 4 and Natural Order). Goyfs go all the way because he can't draw anything relevant and has to start blocking at some point.

R2) Miracles (2-1) Dice: win
G1: He swords all my creatures with Snapcaster Mage, and I can't seem to find a Mongoose. He makes a mistake trying to Entreat the Angels for 3, only to get Dazed. After some Top shenanigans he manages to play Counterbalance + Top, with a 2CMC floating on top 3, which means game.
G2: I play a turn 2 Null Rod, followed by two Nimble Mongooses. He attempts to Terminus but I have Force of Will with Pyroblast backup for his Counterspell.
G3: I Force his turn 1 Top and use Surgical on it. His hand is full of crap and he's trying to Brainstorm out of it, but I stifle one of his fetches, leaving him Brainstorm locked. He has only 1 white source in Tundra and I topdeck Wasteland like a boss to seal the deal.

R3) MUD (0-2) Dice: lose
G1: I mull to 6 because my first 7 had only Wasteland as manasource. Keep a fairly greedy 1 lander with Ponder and Brainstorm. He goes turn 1 Ancient Tomb -> Chalice of the Void and I scoop in response.
G2: I mull twice, first hand had no lands, second hand had Tropical as only land, 2 bolts and no cantrips. I keep 5 with Force of Will, Goose, Ponder, Revelry and Flooded Strand. I play Strand -> Tropical -> Goose. He tries to Chalice on turn 1 again but I force it. I draw Lightning Bolt pass, he plays Metalworker on his turn. I draw Tarmogoyf, pass. He activates Metalworker for a billion mana, play Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine and I scoop.

R4) Some weird form of ANT (2-0) Dice: lose
G1: He starts with fetch -> Watery Grave and plays Thoughtseize, taking my Delver. I draw another Delver and play it. He fetches again, and play Brainstorm after (that was really weird) and pass. My delver doesn't flip, but I draw the second land I needed. I have Daze and Spell Pierce in hand, and decide to take a risk by playing Tarmogoyf. He plays Brainstorm again, then Preordain, pass. Great, my gamble worked. Delver flips off Bolt, and I attack with delver + 3/4 goyf and Bolt him to 4 life. On his turn, he tries to Dark Ritual off three lands, I Spell Pierce it, he pays. I Daze it, his Ritual gets countered and he doesn't have any more mana to work with.
G2: He goes for the Turn 2 combo unprotected, only to get my Flusterstorm in the face.

I won some store credit after getting 2nd place and trade it for some foil cards for my Pauper deck. Deck worked fine, anyone has any suggestions?

[KobeBryan]

Are you sure Tarfire is worth it...over Chain or Forked.

[Vandalize]

Are you sure Tarfire is worth it...over Chain or Forked.

Well, each burn spell has its up and down sides.

Tarfire:
+ Grows Goyf
+ Instant
- Only 2 damage

Forked Bolt:
+ Split damage
- Sorcery
- Only 2 damage

Chain Lightning:
+ 3 damage
- Sorcery
- Bad against red decks

I like Tarfire better because you can make 5/6 goys without your opponent's graveyard. But I'd definetly switch it for Forked Bolt if Death and Taxes was relevant in my meta.

[echofish]

I do not think Tarfire and Dismember works together. Tarfire will pump goyfs to usually up to 5/6 and then you can't Dismember them.

[Themucher]

Played in a local tournament on Saturday and wanted to share. Played mostly a standard list running 3 pierces and 3 chain lightnings. One major change I made was -1 wasteland +1 island. It was insane that night with everybody packing bloodmoons sideboard and even one main board. Beat jund, storm (tired to go off met with Pierce Pierce daze daze, man blue is fun). And mono red sneak attack. Only lost to dredge, g1 t1 kills me, game three he "goes off" at 2 life.

[Mammutti]

After a few miserable months of Death and Taxes I have finally found my baby again: RUG <3

Played in a local weekly 4 round event.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Forked Bolt

3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

Round 1: ANT

G1 - I land a T1 Delver. He Duresses my Force of will leaving me with double Daze, land and a Spell Pierce. I draw a Probe and see LED, LED, Ponder, Brainstorm, Delta and Tropical. Draw Ponder off Probe and find another Force. On 6 life he casts a bunch of rituals with enough mana to pay for all the soft counters but he does not hit another discard so my Force takes down his Infernal Tutor and he scoops.

G2 - I play a T1 Delver and T2 Goyf, "thinking" about "Dazing" his cantrips to buy more time when I'm tapped out (I only have a Ponder, Spell Pierce and Bolt). He Cabal Therapies naming FoW. I show my hand and next turn Ponder into Force. I believe he tries to cast a Cabal Ritual which I counter, eot Bolt and swing for lethal.

Out: -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Lightning Bolt, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -1 Probe
In: +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Surgical Extraction

2-0
(1-0)

Round 2: RUG Delver (3 Chain Lightnings)

G1 - He wins the dice roll and plays a T1 Delver. I Probe him seeing Fow, Daze, Daze, Brainstorm, Pierce. I Waste his only land. He draws a blank and passes. My T2 Mongoose meets a Force of Will. He blanks again. I Bolt his Delver and play a Goose T3 and a Goyf T4, he blanks and scoops.

G2 - This is a close one. We both drop our Delvers T1. His one flips revealing Stifle, mine doesn't. I Stifle his fetch and he quickly Surgicals my Stifles after. My Delver flips. Next turn he tries to Bolt my Delver but I have mana to Flusterstorm and pay for Daze. Now I can Bolt his Delver with another Flusterstorm in hand while he is tapped out. Plan works. He plays a thresholded Mongoose. Delver and Goose exchange beats but I am losing the race. At 6 life I need to stop attacking. Delver and Mongoose stare at each other for a few turns. I Ponder into a Force leaving Goyf on top. His Goyf gets countered while mine resolves.

Out (on the draw): -3 Daze, -2 Force, -2 Spell Pierce
In: +2 Submerge, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Vendilion Clique

2-0
(2-0)

Round 3: BUG Delver (with Hymns)

G1 - I go first playing a T1 Delver. He Thoughtseizes me T1 taking a Stifle. I play a Wasteland and drop a Goyf T2. He Decays the Goyf. I Waste his Sea but he finds another land and casts Hymn to Tourach. I Force pitching Force. I play a Mongoose and he doesn't find anything.

G2 - I manage to Waste Stifle lock him out of the game.

Out (on the draw): -3 Daze, -2 Force, -1 Spell Pierce, -2 Probe
In: +2 Submerge, +2 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Pithing Needle

2-0
(3-0)

Round 4: Burn

G1 - Early creatures with counter magic get there while he draws five Mountains and I'm still on a healthy 13 life.

G2 - A close one where he resolves two Eidolons. I'm ahead in the race and if he wants to kill my Delver he has to take 4 damage which would make the Bolt in my hand lethal. Unfortunately his last two cards are Fireblasts.

G3 - A close one as well. I have a slow start with T1 Mongoose and he starts Bolting my face without hesitation. I manage to play a Goyf to hold back his Eidolon. I cast a Rough//Tumble, killing his Eidolon and reaching threshold in the process. Swing for 8 dmg twice and on his upkeep I Bolt him with Flusterstorm backup in case he has Price of Progress + Fireblast.

Out: -4 Stifle, -2 Probe
In: +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Rough//Tumble

2-1
(4-0)

---

Deck felt solid as always. I really like Probes as they make reaching threshold easier and provide valuable information.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Here's an interesting thought...if you had to choose a highlander sideboard, what would it be?
Example:
1 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique

That's the exact fifteen I had on my mind when I was considering an EDHesque sideboard prior to some lgs tourney fourtnight ago.
The two blasts are a gimmick, and the missing second Submerge, while somehow mitigated by Dismember is still that: a missing. However I like the sb.

Speaking of fetchlands, it depends on what you wanna do, and what's your budget, and where do you play (do they know you), and also art preferences.
I guess that Foothills might work in bigger tourneys. 4+4 U/G and U/R (or some split of them and U/B) seems solid in case you'd ever want to switch to UGbr. (But these days Deltas are not that much more expensive then Zendikar fetches, so we, especialy considering the print of Where Once Dragons Meh, Now Dragons' Bones Meh fetchlands.)

I dislike the nonexistance of even a smallest CA tool. Is there a way how to incorporate either Ancestral Vision or Predict? I like the second one, but it's a cmc2 card, so it's kinda crappy.

Btw, I'm 11 cards away from rebuilding RUG Delver. Fortunately these are just some crap cards (set of those new Werebears, 8 sacrifice lands and some faerie from Mortgage expansion), so it shouldn't take much time and effort to be back on track.

[mextremartini]

How do you guys feel about the new NATURAL STATE? Seems like a great addition against MUD, Stoneblade decks...

[Zombie]

How do you guys feel about the new NATURAL STATE? Seems like a great addition against MUD, Stoneblade decks...

Huh? O_o

It's 3cc, max. Doesn't hit their robots, CC1 so doesn't get past Chalice, stops Jitte/Swords but not Batterskull.

It has applications, maybe, but not against those two decks. I'd look more for Shardless, decks that like to play Library, and the like.

[skinnytalls]

This deck is very well positioned right now I believe. I'm am undefeated at my lgs the last two tournaments. I've been running the standard 54 and 2 forked bolt 1 dismember and 3 spell pierces. I played against storm, elf's two times, grixis delver two times, stifle nought, dragon stompy and goblins running chalice. The configuration has been solid for me the last few months. The lone dismember has been an all star winning goyf battles and killing swamp fish. There are times when its kind of bad like when I kill a 1/2 deathrite but they are a kill on sight for this deck. Spell pierce is very good most match ups and I cant imagine running less than three. Forked bolt is my is a beast. I tried out chain lightning and the reach was good was good but I felt it was unnecessary, because if an opponent is down to three life we will usually win that game anyway. I really like the possible two for one that forked provided plus the one damage to kill a creature and one to the face is not to be underestimated. I personally have not been a fan of probe because I simply do not want to cut from my flex spots as those cards have proved to be amazing. rough/tumble out of the board just wins games, often it was better than 2 for one.
I hold up stifle mana every game I have them and that has really paid off (something I learned by reading this thread, thanks all!). In most cases if I had no stifle target bolt and pierce would do the trick and I could counter a brainstorm or bolt a deathrite.

[ptahetep]

Congrats on the results! What your sideboard looks like at the moment? Can you explain any less traditional choices?

[wcm8]

I tend to get paired against difficult matchups whenever I decide to run RUG, e.g. RG Combo Lands or MUD (though I was able to beat MUD with some lucky and well-timed counterspells). My local metagame is quite competitive, but there are a fair number of people who like to run decks that cast big mana spells or that operate on atypical axes (e.g. mana-less dredge, 12-post, etc.).

I think this deck wants some sort of trump card to win matchups like these. I was considering running Price of Progress and/or Sulfuric Vortex as a method of punching in the last points of damage, as often what happens is I can get through for 12-16 points but then the opponent is able to establish some sort of lock. I am also considering running a Basic land or two to deal with the threat of Blood Moon and Wasteland. I liked the idea of trying Eidolon of the Great Revel to win against decks that rely on lower-CMC cards, with the added benefit of basically being an auto-win against Storm decks if unanswered.

In an ideal world, I'd be able to face-off every round against Ux Combo, janky midrange, and durdly control decks -- but this is not always the case. I am wondering if anyone has tested some unusual sideboard cards lately that make a big impact on otherwise difficult matchups?

[H]

In an ideal world, I'd be able to face-off every round against Ux Combo, janky midrange, and durdly control decks -- but this is not always the case. I am wondering if anyone has tested some unusual sideboard cards lately that make a big impact on otherwise difficult matchups?

I'm not sure if you have ever tried Winter Orb but it is usually rather good versus any mana-hungry decks.

[NARO]

Hey guys I am new in this thread and with the deck as well. I'm playing legacy since 1 year ago, playing TES. I just migrated into canadian since it's my favourite legacy deck, I already have seen a lot of videos and read a lot about the deck, but obviously I'm a newbie. Nonetheless I have played 2 legacy events with this deck with decent results. The first I went 2-2, winning against affinity and esper, losing to burn and team america. The second was today and I lost in semis to elves, but really i lost to a missplay that cost me the game. I went first in the swiss with 4-1. Tomorrow I will give a quick report.

Greets


So I will take a time to write a tiny report, don't expect too much insight because I did not take notes, but my intention is to get advice in how to sideboard. My list was RUG54, 3 pierces, 2 forked, 1 probe. I would have ran 2/2/2 split but I didn't have flusterstrom(the only card i'm missing from the deck) so I choose to run 3 pierces.

This was my sideboard:

2 Rough//Tumble
2 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dismember (I expected a lot of goyfs, but it's a card that I don't like maindeck since it's dead in some matchups)

Round 1. Shardless BUG, a friend of mine who eventually got to the finals

Game 1, im on the draw and all of my threats get answered and my goose can't beat his goyf.
+2 submerge, +1 library, +1 pithing needle, +1 dismember, +1 vendilion, -4 fows,-1 probe, -1 pierce. I don't remeber if I sided in the REBs, thinking about it I would probably do it.

Game 2, if I remember correctly I wastelanded/stiled some of his lands and a delver took the game for me.
+3 fows, -3 dazes.

Game 3, he gets stuck in 3 lands and I have a goyf and a mongoose in play, in his turn he brainstorms, he finds a creeping tar pit and gives me turn. I wasteland his creeping, swing and in the next turn he lands a goyf. At this point I have a Fow and a bolt in hand, and I draw a brainstorm, he is at 10 life. The brainstorm finds a submerge, so i submerge his goyf, swing and his upkeep bolt him for the win.

2-1 (1-0)

Round 2. Burn, i'm on the draw as well.

Game 1, I know he is on burn so I keep my 7 with 2 goyfs. He lands a guide and it gets me a land. I don't really remember what I did but I remember that at the end of the game I had 2 goyfs and a goose in play, and he had a lavamancer, and 3-4 cards in hand, and 3 lands. I'm in 9 life and I have lethal for next turn, I have 4 lands, 1 is an untapped wasteland, but i'm without counters. He goes price, I sac 2 of my lands, but before he just goes lightning bolt and fireblast.

+2 Rough, +1 Vendilion, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Destructive Revelry, -1 Gitaxian Probe, -4 Stifle

Game 2, I mulligan to 6, however, I can bolt all of his creatures and 2 gooses puts him in a 3 turn clock, and he can't beat me before.

-1 vendilion, +1 stifle.

Game 3, he mulligans to 6 and gets stuck with 1 land for some turns, so I can get those time to develop my board as well to find counters, if I remember correctly i inished this game with a lot of points of life.

2-1 (2-0)

Round 3, versus Lands, On the play.

I won't comment a lot on this matchup, was the only match in all day that I lost and I felt hopeless. So I would appreciate input on how to win this matchup, altough I realize that it has to be dificult. Game 1 he comboed me, I had to wasteland his maze to get my goyf to swing, and he had a punishing for my delver.

I think I did +1 needle, +1 destructive revelry, +1 surgical extraction +1 sylvan library, -2 stifles -2 forked bolt.

Game 2 I needle the thespian stage, but he port-locked me out of the game and I conceded since I was in a very unfavourable position.

0-2 (2-1).

Round4, versus Ooze reanimator. On the draw(sigh...).

Game 1, I land a T1 delver. he turn 1 goes swamp, lotus, dark ritual, buried alive. I have a FoW in hand but I don't know what to do, but just I remember that I read somewhere that against reanimator you have to counter the entomb. So I extrapolate the situation and decided to counter it. My delver doesn't flip for 2 turns, and he has to therapy himself to get a griselbrand in the graveyard. My delver inally flips to a daze and he is in topdeck mode. I'm pretty scared since I only have a daze to counter and he has 4 lands. The turn before he is dead, he tries to play a necrotic ooze but I daze it for the win. I don't remember if the ooze resolving would gave him the win anyway.

+2 REB, +1 vendilion, +1 grafdiggers cage, +1 needle, +1 surgical extraction, -2 forked, -2 bolt, -2 goose

Game 2 was a quick one, I stifle his first land and he gets stuck with 1 island in play, so I counter some of his cantrips and in that time I can end the game.

2-0 (3-1)

So, the standings are up and im 4th in the swiss, but somehow I get paired with a guy with 7 points so I have to play.

He is on goblins and I know it, in fact in the last 3 legacy tournaments that I went I played against this guy always in the last round of swiss. His deck scares me since he plays chalice on the sideboard. So I gotta respect that. I'm on the play by the way.

Game 1, I keep a nice hand, with bolt and forked bolt. I ponder T1, don't like what I see and shuffle, he plays a vial that finds a fow. I play a goyf T2 and T3, and he has 2 lackeys in play. He wasteland my volcanic so i cannot kill his goblins. We are both mana screwed, and I can't attack with my goyfs because I don't want his lackeys to touch me. So we spend like 3-4 turns drawing and passing. At the end I find a fetch, get a volcanic, get his lackeys out of the board and win the game some turns later.

+2 rough, +1 destructive revelry, +1 ancient grudge, +1 pithing needle. -1 probe, -1 pierce, -(some number of stifles/dazes)

Game 2, I mulligan to 6 to find a counter for his chalice. He plays a lands and passes, I have a delver and a pierce and no other counters. Since I know he has chalices now, I play a land and pass, and he goes chalice on 1 that I counter. I finished quickly after that since he relied so much on his chalice resolving he told me later.

2-0 (4-1)

So I'm first on the swiss getting into top8.

Quarters, against Food Chain.

First game was very ********-esque, i can hit his lands while a Delver kills him.

In: 2 Submerge 2 Red Elemental Blast 1 Vendillion Clique 1 Destructive Revelry 1 Pithing Needle
Out, i don't remember but I think something like 4 dazes, 2 stifles

Second game he can resolve a manipulate fate and he gets 3 griffins in the exile, while im pressuring with 1, later 2, later 3 delvers. I rembember that we were at topdeck mode, he casting his griffins and I cound't attack him with my delvers because he had a relic so he could cast again the griffins. So at one moment I cast a ponder and see mongoose, needle, land. I draw the needle naming relic, attack with my delvers and next turn stick the goose for the win. He later told me that he did not expect the needle naming relic.

Semis vs Elves

First game, i stick some goyfs and he can't deal with them and dies pretty fast.
In: pithing needle, cage, dismember, 2 rough// tumble
Out: 2 spell pierce, 3 dazes.

Second game I can put some pressure but i don't have a counter for his glimpse and he goes off.
Third game was when I played so bad. I had a goose and a tarmo and he has like 12-15 creatures. Only a rough can save me. An I topdeck it. So I wipe his board but he saves a shaman. I attack and pass, he plays the chaman and passes. Next turn I draw a delver and attack, leaving him with 2 life. He does nothing and passes. My delver doesn't flip but at this point im thinking that i'va already won.So I attack not realizing that my goose doesn't have ********, so he blocks the delver, decays the goyf and eats a card of my gy, leaving him with 1 HP. I had a fetch in hand so I realise my fatal mistake at this point. Next turn he orders for a behemoth to block my goose, and I draw a delver and pass. My delver doesn't flip in 4 turns(I only draw lands) and I lose. The karma was strong in this game

Overall pretty happy, I love the deck and it feels so powerful. When the things go right it's almost unbeatable. Cheers.

[Psycho]

Last Saturday I played in a tournament in Rotterdam (NL). The meta was fairly great for RUG Delver.

Meta:
Sneak & Show: 3
ANT: 3
Burn: 3
Grixis Delver: 2
Sultai Delver: 2
Pox: 2
Merfolk: 2
Mud: 1
Reanimator: 1
Mono W Prison: 1
Shardless Bug: 1
Lands: 1
Tempo Trash: 1
Maverick: 1
UG Infect: 1
Oldschool Sneak Attack: 1
Esper Blade: 1
Goblin Prison: 1

I pretty happy about my list, I really liked the 2 Dismember in the main. Normally I play Forked Bolt.

Main:
4x Delver
4x Goose
4x Tarmo
4x FOW
4x Daze
4x Stifle
2x Pierce
4x Bolt
2x Dismember
4x BS
4x Ponder
2x Probe
4x Tarn
4x Misty
3x Volcanic
3x Tropical
4x Wasteland

Side:
1x Needle
1x Cage
1x Surgical
1x Grudge
1x Grip
1x Vortex
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Flusterstorm
2x Submerge
2x Rough//Tumble
3x Pyroblast

Matchups:
0-2 Pox: No fun, didn't saw enough of my counter spells and couldn't protect my threats nor manabase.
1-2 Burn: The guy didn't own any fetch lands, so Stifle was pretty dead game one and I saw 3. Game to I manage to land a Delver and a Goose and out raced him. Game 3 I had bad draws and no counter magic to stop him in time.
1-2 Mono R prison: Game 1 Chalice + 3Sphere, game 2 I grinded out with a Goyf and a Goose. Goose was still 1/1 so could attack through his Bridge.
2-1 Esper Blade: Game 1 he couldn't keep up so I won. Game 2 I landed Vortex, he had Disenchant and Batterskull kills me. Game 3 I controlled him out the game and my Delver killed him.
2-0 Mono W Staxx: I had an answer for everything he played.

The first 3 matchups where really bad.. Unlucky pairing I guess.

[mextremartini]

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..

[KobeBryan]

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..

pack more winter orbs

[Contract Killer]

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..
Similar to mud or any other prison based match up. You just need to play tight and stay vigilant against lock pieces. I haven't played the match up personally, but it's not something that worries me.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

[echofish]

Hi everyone.
How do we do against the emerging Eldrazy Stompy? Any SB tech in mind?
Cheers..

The deck is everywhere on Trice and I have not lost to the deck yet. 2 Dismembers maindeck helps.

[Contract Killer]

A fellow RUG player on cockatrice saw me and wanted me to post my list so here it is:
Stock 54
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
2 dismember

Sideboard
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 rough // tumble
2 submerge
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 vendilion clique
1 sulfur elemental
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 sulfuric vortex

This configuration is great if you expect all the top decks of the format. Well I say top decks I mean real decks so everything except dredge and mud/stompy those sorts of decks. Which is mainly due to the fact that the sideboard lacks graveyard hate and actual artifact hate. What it makes up for though is solid singletons that spread multiple match ups like null rod -> Storm/miracles/stoneforge and Extraction ->graveyard/combo/miracles (shuffle effect in resp to top or a snapcaster counter). Just don't take this list to a weekly if you know it'll be like 15 people with 4+ fringe decks that you should just meta game for.

I'm also probably going to be posting a way overdue tournament report for gp SeaTac soon. A lot of stuff happened in my life directly prior to that tournament at which point I wasn't even sure if I would go. I did go and make day 2 which was good. Then after that I was super busy moving along with other stressful things. That aside I'll probably post the report in a day or two I just need to finish editing it.

[keys]

Sideboard
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 rough // tumble
2 submerge
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 vendilion clique
1 sulfur elemental
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 sulfuric vortex


Very nice board. I agree the Null Rod, Vortex, and possibly the 2nd Flusterstorm are the only debatable options.

Substitute Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge, True-Name Nemesis, Grafdigger's Cage, or Life From the Loam as needed.

[KobeBryan]

A fellow RUG player on cockatrice saw me and wanted me to post my list so here it is:
Stock 54
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
2 dismember

Sideboard
2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
2 rough // tumble
2 submerge
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 vendilion clique
1 sulfur elemental
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 sulfuric vortex

This configuration is great if you expect all the top decks of the format. Well I say top decks I mean real decks so everything except dredge and mud/stompy those sorts of decks. Which is mainly due to the fact that the sideboard lacks graveyard hate and actual artifact hate. What it makes up for though is solid singletons that spread multiple match ups like null rod -> Storm/miracles/stoneforge and Extraction ->graveyard/combo/miracles (shuffle effect in resp to top or a snapcaster counter). Just don't take this list to a weekly if you know it'll be like 15 people with 4+ fringe decks that you should just meta game for.

I'm also probably going to be posting a way overdue tournament report for gp SeaTac soon. A lot of stuff happened in my life directly prior to that tournament at which point I wasn't even sure if I would go. I did go and make day 2 which was good. Then after that I was super busy moving along with other stressful things. That aside I'll probably post the report in a day or two I just need to finish editing it.

You aint. Fucking around with miracles

[Contract Killer]

Very nice board. I agree the Null Rod, Vortex, and possibly the 2nd Flusterstorm are the only debatable options.

Substitute Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge, True-Name Nemesis, Grafdigger's Cage, or Life From the Loam as needed.

Pithing needle I've definitely tried, but I actually think null rod is strictly better in that slot. In terms of cards you want to name with pithing needle imo: Top, Stoneforge, Vial, Liliana, Jace. The latter two are where needle can shine particularly vs something like shardless bug or esper deathblade. Null rod on the other hand hits the first 3 cards in addition to storm. I think hitting storm plus the primary needle targets is a huge advantage. Needle can help preemptively shut down answers like Liliana/Jace, but those are easier to answer than skilled storm pilots.

Vortex is just for the miracles match up and the stoneblade variants that are few and far between. It's just such a beating for miracles that it has earned its spot in my board. The second flusterstorm I actually like more than third pyroblast. They both do their own thing, but the only match up where you really want the third pyroblast is miracles. Conveniently the second flusterstorm is still really good here helping against terminus, council's judgment, etc. Don't get me wrong the third pyroblast is much better against miracles hitting counterbalance and snapcaster. I just find the flexibility that the second flusterstorm brings to the table in other match ups more useful than the third pyroblast.


You aint. Fucking around with miracles

I find that match up to be very difficult. At the very least postboard we have 10 or so dead cards (Wasteland, Secondary removal, Daze otd / Bolt otp). That match up can just be so brutal and it's quite popular at my lgs. I board the following against them:
Otp +2 pyroblast, 2 flusterstorm, krosan grip, null rod, vendilion clique, sulfur elemental, sylvan library, sulfuric vortex, surgical extraction // - 2 dismember, 4 wasteland, 4 bolt (if they show mentor this can change to more dazes), 1 daze
Otd same // - 2 dismember, 4 wasteland, 4 daze, 1 bolt

Bolt and daze are both absurdly bad against them. Daze can still be useful otp I think to some extent. Bolt has now proven to be somewhat better since they actually have a target other than ambush snap/clique. Despite that I really don't want either postboard, but there's only so much room in the sideboard and miracles is one of many decks to prepare for.

[Zombie]

Be crazy, play a manabase of wooded foothills and misty rainforests, play a dryad arbor in the board. :P

[LewisCBR]

Hey, random Thresh questions as i try to improve my play...

#1: Say I am on the draw in the blind and have an opener of a couple fetches, Wasteland, Delver, Ponder, and bolt; a typical very good hand. If my opponent opens with Tarn into Tundra (indicating Counter/Top) and Ponders with his mana, do you immediately Waste it on your turn?

I feel like i make this move often, against a lot of decks, and one guy raged at me that i was an idiot, lol. I dont see why not, though. Its a good target, it resets the game, i'm no worse off, and it might completely fck him over. In the game where the guy tilted off, it did in fact mana screw him. Is it more typical to play a threat instead? I def do this against MUD or Eldrazi when they have a turn 1 Tomb.

#2: I'm in game 3 against Re-animator, on the draw. My opener is pretty sweet, has a Cage, cantrips, and threats, but lacks a Force/Daze. I keep it after he mulls to 6.... only to get nutted on when his turn 1 is Ritual into Entomb into Reanimate. Now theres a Grizzy in play and i auto-lose.

Is it basically a requirement to mull into a Force against this deck? I feel like i lose to big resolved creatures far too often, would a couple sideboard Vapor Snags be too crazy?

#3: On the play against Storm. I have a good hand with Stifle, lands, Tarmo, etc, but no Force/Daze. On turn 1 i Ponder and look for counter magic, but dont see any. Turn 2 i play Tarmo to get the beats going, but leave myself vulnerable.... and the inevitable happens and storms off turn 2.

Is it usually correct to get your threat on the table? I could have Stifled the storm trigger, after all his doings, and saved myself had i not tapped out. Maybe this is a 'it depends' situation and i shouldnt tap out for Tarmo without having counter backup. I feel like i'm punting a lot of games by playing a threat, only to lose on the following turn that Stifle could have stopped.




Thanks for any replies, these small nuance situations is where i need to improve my game.

[tescrin]

Hey, random Thresh questions as i try to improve my play...

#1: Say I am on the draw in the blind and have an opener of a couple fetches, Wasteland, Delver, Ponder, and bolt; a typical very good hand. If my opponent opens with Tarn into Tundra (indicating Counter/Top) and Ponders with his mana, do you immediately Waste it on your turn?

I feel like i make this move often, against a lot of decks, and one guy raged at me that i was an idiot, lol. I dont see why not, though. Its a good target, it resets the game, i'm no worse off, and it might completely fck him over. In the game where the guy tilted off, it did in fact mana screw him. Is it more typical to play a threat instead? I def do this against MUD or Eldrazi when they have a turn 1 Tomb.

#2: I'm in game 3 against Re-animator, on the draw. My opener is pretty sweet, has a Cage, cantrips, and threats, but lacks a Force/Daze. I keep it after he mulls to 6.... only to get nutted on when his turn 1 is Ritual into Entomb into Reanimate. Now theres a Grizzy in play and i auto-lose.

Is it basically a requirement to mull into a Force against this deck? I feel like i lose to big resolved creatures far too often, would a couple sideboard Vapor Snags be too crazy?

#3: On the play against Storm. I have a good hand with Stifle, lands, Tarmo, etc, but no Force/Daze. On turn 1 i Ponder and look for counter magic, but dont see any. Turn 2 i play Tarmo to get the beats going, but leave myself vulnerable.... and the inevitable happens and storms off turn 2.

Is it usually correct to get your threat on the table? I could have Stifled the storm trigger, after all his doings, and saved myself had i not tapped out. Maybe this is a 'it depends' situation and i shouldnt tap out for Tarmo without having counter backup. I feel like i'm punting a lot of games by playing a threat, only to lose on the following turn that Stifle could have stopped.

Thanks for any replies, these small nuance situations is where i need to improve my game.

#1 - It also may indicate that they may have bad mana (IME, I fetch basics unless I have to fetch duals -> AKA not enough lands.) This is reinforced that they're fetching before your turn to get around Stifle, meaning they probably can't handle being Stifled for a turn (so waste is also bad for them.) It also means they probably have Plow. This means Delver is bad. Your options are to Ponder for Daze/Force and hope they cast CB next turn or to Waste them. You should pick blind Waste here because:
* you may nat-draw your counterspell
* your opponent may not have another land, lack a fetch, or only have basics; leaving them cut off at the moment.
** Bonus. They may be forced to brainstorm.
** Bonus 2. They may be unable to plow your Delver the next turn.
* you have enough lands, so spending the waste now is probably the best value out of it you'll get.

#2 - Maybe? You were meta'd/unlucky. In the decks I typically play I still have the outs of Plow/Lily, or even bitterblossom. Given this, I normally worry about locking them out of continuing to build a board while I make my way towards clearing their board.

#3 - Honestly; I'm super cautious when I play against storm. I would've left up stifle T1, held Stifle + cast ponder T2, Then casted Goyf while holding Stifle T3 if I made my third land drop*; until they either took it away, I found other countermagic, or I killed them via stifle. Don't leave yourself open and they have to have multiple discard spells to get you. They'll likely guess Spell Pierce or Brainstorm if you don't have a bad poker face when they fetch. Never let your guard down.

*Honestly, if you didn't draw a third land, Countermagic, or Delver after your opener, a ponder, and 3 draws; you're really unlucky. That's over half of your deck you're not finding in 14 cards.


I'm happy to be corrected by more canadian players; but I'm pretty sure on all three of these. #1 your delver is dead if you cast it, bolt is a waste, ponder is a waste given you have a threat, removal, and can dig a card deeper by waiting a turn and stalling the board; among the other benefits. #2, it's pretty unlucky. They'll always try to go off, but they often win the counter war via discard or similar anyway. #3 You killed yourself IMO. They may duress you, but then you'd lose with countermagic anyway.

[Zombie]

#3 - Honestly; I'm super cautious when I play against storm. I would've left up stifle T1, held Stifle + cast ponder T2, Then casted Goyf while holding Stifle T3 if I made my third land drop*; until they either took it away, I found other countermagic, or I killed them via stifle. Don't leave yourself open and they have to have multiple discard spells to get you. They'll likely guess Spell Pierce or Brainstorm if you don't have a bad poker face when they fetch. Never let your guard down.

If they're on ANT and you're on the play I'd say an aggressive T1 play is OK. TES, or on the draw and I'd hold up Stifle.

[Contract Killer]

Hey, random Thresh questions as i try to improve my play...

#1: Say I am on the draw in the blind and have an opener of a couple fetches, Wasteland, Delver, Ponder, and bolt; a typical very good hand. If my opponent opens with Tarn into Tundra (indicating Counter/Top) and Ponders with his mana, do you immediately Waste it on your turn?

I feel like i make this move often, against a lot of decks, and one guy raged at me that i was an idiot, lol. I dont see why not, though. Its a good target, it resets the game, i'm no worse off, and it might completely fck him over. In the game where the guy tilted off, it did in fact mana screw him. Is it more typical to play a threat instead? I def do this against MUD or Eldrazi when they have a turn 1 Tomb.

#2: I'm in game 3 against Re-animator, on the draw. My opener is pretty sweet, has a Cage, cantrips, and threats, but lacks a Force/Daze. I keep it after he mulls to 6.... only to get nutted on when his turn 1 is Ritual into Entomb into Reanimate. Now theres a Grizzy in play and i auto-lose.

Is it basically a requirement to mull into a Force against this deck? I feel like i lose to big resolved creatures far too often, would a couple sideboard Vapor Snags be too crazy?

#3: On the play against Storm. I have a good hand with Stifle, lands, Tarmo, etc, but no Force/Daze. On turn 1 i Ponder and look for counter magic, but dont see any. Turn 2 i play Tarmo to get the beats going, but leave myself vulnerable.... and the inevitable happens and storms off turn 2.

Is it usually correct to get your threat on the table? I could have Stifled the storm trigger, after all his doings, and saved myself had i not tapped out. Maybe this is a 'it depends' situation and i shouldnt tap out for Tarmo without having counter backup. I feel like i'm punting a lot of games by playing a threat, only to lose on the following turn that Stifle could have stopped.

Thanks for any replies, these small nuance situations is where i need to improve my game.

#1 Generally it is bad to waste without a threat in play. It essentially does nothing. Yes you've reset the game, but that has no real impact. For waste to have a lasting impact you need a threat pressuring his life total to leverage the mana denial. This is a common mistake people make when first playing a tempo deck. I know Jacob Wilson has a video where he explicitly states I'll try to update the post with it later.

Now there will be some times that you do this where it does completely wreck someone. It's unlikely, but it can happen. I played against Glenn Jones once ( he was on 4c delver I was on rug) and he did this too me. This was more so due to the fact that I was on a mul to 6 and led Volc -> ponder. I didn't really have anything better to do other than land pass bluff stifle. In this scenario it's completely different because he read that turn 1 waste was right. There's definitely plays like this that if you don't think about them before the game begins a skilled player can read you and end the game there. It's food for thought, but as a general rule of thumb don't waste turn 1.

#2 Against reanimator they go off extremely fast. If you don't have any other form of interaction then playing out the cage is correct. If you have a daze/force + cage then I would lead on a threat followed by turn 2 cage. Having a threat in play again gives you a way to leverage the cage against them. It forces them to find the answer to cage in a timely manner. If you lead on cage then they already know what they need to look for and gives them a lot of information for their cantrips.

This combo deck in particular is often a coin flip. I won against Chase Hansen in a local GPT a while back in the top 8. At least one of our three games just boiling down to who was otp. After talking with him he agreed that at least part of the time it just boils down to who's otd/otp. Don't let this discourage you or toss a solid hand with daze + cantrip + threat just because it doesn't have force. Vapor snag is horrible if you really want to put reanimator in it's place just run 3+ forms of graveyard based interaction ie Extraction, Cage being the most versatile.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27776-Deck-Canadian-Threshold-(aka-RUG-Delver-Tempo-Thresh)&p=900138&viewfull=1#post900138

#3 Storm is a combo deck that can rarely go off turn 2. It's possible, but unless they have information they will wait most of the time. Having played that deck some myself it doesn't win turn 1 - 2 often against blue decks. It's too risky and a skilled storm pilot with bide their time until they get disruption and know the coast is clear.

As for your line with a hand of Stifle, Goyf, Lands there's a lot to consider. If this is game 1 and they don't know what you're on holding stifle up turn 1 followed by goyf turn 2 and ponder turn 3 is the best. There's a chance they blindly run into stifle. They will also be wary of any untapped blue fetch and wait to go off until they have more information.

Stifling a storm trigger is a pipe dream. Just don't think about it. The majority of the time against RUG Delver storm can do something like Ritual, ritual, Infernal, Past in flames, ritual, ritual, recycle discard taking a stifle since that's the only relevant thing left, kill you. It just won't happen unless you're playing against a complete amateur storm player. Always just try to stifle the first fetch you see against them. The same goes for daze I usually try to daze the first spell like a cantrip or an infernal tutor their using to get another piece of fast mana. By the time they actually combo off daze is usually dead.

I think you're feeling like there's no other lines then what's in your hand. RUG Delver plays 8 free counterspells, stifle and a mix of spell snares and pierces. That being said the deck can be very deceiving and people will often run into counterspell A while trying to play around C or something like that. This article in particular might help shed some light on what I'm trying to explain:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/bluffing/
The formats discussed are out of context, but in legacy the risk reward is much higher. Your opponents will think twice about fetching into an untapped land on your side if they know you're on RUG Delver.

[KobeBryan]

Speaking of that, i don't think its ever possible to stifle a storm.

The most i've ever stifled was a cascade.

[tescrin]

Speaking of that, i don't think its ever possible to stifle a storm.

I believe it happened on camera sometime last year. Either way, both of you still lose the game in question if you don't hold it up T2. My line has a reasonable chance of stalling until he can Threat + have protection ready. If your ponder is really good, or your draw is a brainstorm, it's quite possible to instead Ponder-> hold up Force + Delver. If you goyf, you just lose T2.

That said, it's also clear (to Zombie, who I agree with) that I'm talking about TES where as if you're talking about ANT; it may be safe.

On #1, I'll clarify that I realize that usually T1 waste is bad, but in this case we've crossed off every card unless you want to wing a Ponder for interaction which is, fair enough, 44.4%. If, however, you instant lose; you can increase that to 52.4% by just wasting T1 and buying that extra draw; among all the other bonuses I mentioned since he's indicating he has a weak manabase. (that's a 6% gross, or a ~11% relative increase in chance of success.)

[Contract Killer]

I believe it happened on camera sometime last year. Either way, both of you still lose the game in question if you don't hold it up T2. My line has a reasonable chance of stalling until he can Threat + have protection ready. If your ponder is really good, or your draw is a brainstorm, it's quite possible to instead Ponder-> hold up Force + Delver. If you goyf, you just lose T2.

That said, it's also clear (to Zombie, who I agree with) that I'm talking about TES where as if you're talking about ANT; it may be safe.

On #1, I'll clarify that I realize that usually T1 waste is bad, but in this case we've crossed off every card unless you want to wing a Ponder for interaction which is, fair enough, 44.4%. If, however, you instant lose; you can increase that to 52.4% by just wasting T1 and buying that extra draw; among all the other bonuses I mentioned since he's indicating he has a weak manabase. (that's a 6% gross, or a ~11% relative increase in chance of success.)

I was assuming ant over tes since that's the more played version. Any line is subject to change based on what the opponent does. If ant leads sea -> duress -> stifle then hands down you Ponder turn 2 and hope to hit some counter magic.

Even if you don't the chances of ant going off turn 2 are unlikely unless they have something like 2x dark ritual, led/cabal ritual, infernal, some disruption or probe to see if the coast is clear. TES is a whole other beast that has less disruption so you can hold up counter magic and deploy the threat later. Ant on the other hand is very resilient and will kill you eventually but probably not until turn 3 or 4.

As for the first scenario your reasoning is sound. It is very contextual based on what they're on. Turn one tundra ponder doesn't exactly scream miracles. It could be deathblade or uwr stoneblade as well. In any case if they shuffle off their ponder and just show that they're weak on mana then waste is good and probably worth the gamble. If they keep the ponder I would drop delver turn 1.

[rlesko]

Hey, random Thresh questions as i try to improve my play...

#1: Say I am on the draw in the blind and have an opener of a couple fetches, Wasteland, Delver, Ponder, and bolt; a typical very good hand. If my opponent opens with Tarn into Tundra (indicating Counter/Top) and Ponders with his mana, do you immediately Waste it on your turn?

#2: I'm in game 3 against Re-animator, on the draw. My opener is pretty sweet, has a Cage, cantrips, and threats, but lacks a Force/Daze. I keep it after he mulls to 6.... only to get nutted on when his turn 1 is Ritual into Entomb into Reanimate. Now theres a Grizzy in play and i auto-lose.

Is it basically a requirement to mull into a Force against this deck? I feel like i lose to big resolved creatures far too often, would a couple sideboard Vapor Snags be too crazy?

#3: On the play against Storm. I have a good hand with Stifle, lands, Tarmo, etc, but no Force/Daze. On turn 1 i Ponder and look for counter magic, but dont see any. Turn 2 i play Tarmo to get the beats going, but leave myself vulnerable.... and the inevitable happens and storms off turn 2.



1. If he ponders and shuffles, I might waste. If he ponders and keeps, I do not waste. I most likely ponder here.

2. Reanimator is one of the scariest decks to play against IMO. I would not mull explicitly to force of will especially on the back of other strong cards in my hand. Can't win em all...

3. Need more information on your hand. ANT or TES? What did you ponder into? I probably jam Goyf like you did. I don't believe we have the resources to be playing control vs storm and you are correct we need to get a clock going quickly. Also, ANT is more of a turn 3/4 deck than turn 2.

[Isre Morn]

1. If he ponders and shuffles, I might waste. If he ponders and keeps, I do not waste. I most likely ponder here.

Why would you ponder here and not landing delver? searching for counter backup to save it from being removed?

[tescrin]

Why would you ponder here and not landing delver? searching for counter backup to save it from being removed?

We may also be over-thinking the Counterbalance, given a lack of SDT. You still have a good chance of forcing the SDT while laying threats, although it's far more risky of course.

[LewisCBR]

Thanks for the replies, it gives me a lot to think about, which is what i love about this deck.

I still seem to be having trouble with combo decks; Storm (both ANT and TES) and Reanimator. I feel like i never have enough counters against either. Storm can rip your hand apart pretty easily (Daze feels pointless) and against Reanimator once an Iona or G-daddy is on the table there is nothing this deck can do against it. A Delver is a slow clock against these decks, they eventually battle through my hand. I'm just not sure if these are traditionally bad matchups or I'm doing something wrong. I need to re-work my side with more hate specifically for these decks, other decks I seem to do very well against. *shrug*

[Contract Killer]

Thanks for the replies, it gives me a lot to think about, which is what i love about this deck.

I still seem to be having trouble with combo decks; Storm (both ANT and TES) and Reanimator. I feel like i never have enough counters against either. Storm can rip your hand apart pretty easily (Daze feels pointless) and against Reanimator once an Iona or G-daddy is on the table there is nothing this deck can do against it. A Delver is a slow clock against these decks, they eventually battle through my hand. I'm just not sure if these are traditionally bad matchups or I'm doing something wrong. I need to re-work my side with more hate specifically for these decks, other decks I seem to do very well against. *shrug*

Not having enough counter magic can be a problem. Combo match ups can usually be boiled down to who can bluff better. If you play to cautiously they will call your bluff. On the other hand if you double down on threats turn 2 they might be inclined to go off thinking that's their best window.
The best advice I could give you is to start thinking less "what is this hand missing" and more "what do I have to work with".

If you know you're against combo and have ponder, daze, brainstorm, waste, lands then play ponder turn 1 with the incentive to daze whatever their turn 1 play is. This way you're making the full use of your mana and daze. Whether it's a cantrip* or turn 1 duress. Daze especially against ant loses value quickly. Even if you're trading a daze with a petal they played out to incline you to not daze their one mana spell it's probably worth it and could cut them off red mana.

Another intracacy against combo that just has discard is your cantrips serve a different roll to some extent. Against any cabal therapy if they know your hand and you have brainstorm. The possible scenarios are:

1 You let them therapy you and they take the known counter.

1a They go for it after their therapy. You brainstorm hit some disruption and stop them. Maybe it's just dazing their first ritual, but between that and the 1 mana they invested into disruption it stops them or forces them into just black mana and using ad nauseam.

2 They therapy in response you brainstorm hide your known counter magic. Now they have to blind name something and can possibly whiff.

2a This can be even more effective if you have 2 brainstorms. Then you can still have access to whatever you hid incase you bricked. They won't go for it knowing you have access to that counter still unless they think you actually don't have a blue card for the force or something like that.

You can create similar scenarios like this with ponder plus brainstorm. There's always something you could have done differently. No matter how absurd it is there's always something that could have changed the game.

I've had combo players not pay for a daze on their brainstorm because they know I could have stifle. The risk is so high of getting their land destroyed that they would rather fold then try to resolve it. Even if they do call my bluff if that's all I got to work with then that's my angle. It could possibly brainstorm lock them or force them to ponder shuffle which is better than dying with a daze in hand.

* Daze can be dead against storm, but is still good vs show and tell or other combo decks. Against show and tell decks daze a cantrip only if you're already ahead and have a threat. That way you're just trying to make the game go as fast as possible and they have less looks to assemble the combo.


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[NARO]

Hey guys, some questions regarding the deck:

1. Against miracles, it's good to play the second creature if they don't have top to set up terminus? In the case that you can double your clock playing the second creature, my guess is that it is a good play but i'm not sure.

2. Against miracles you keep dazes on the play? You keep stifle on the draw? It's proven that the mana denial plan is not viable against miracles and the stifles are there for the miracles and probably jace. So probably keep 2? I dunno.

3. When playing against combo(especially show and tell and storm variants) do you side out some creatures, right? I do side out 2 tarmogoyf but probably is better to side out 2 gooses since it's a slower clock. the thing is tarmo costs 2 mana and there are some hands that is risky to play it turn 2. It can be correct to side out tarmos on the play, and gooses on the draw?

4. Against storm do you keep stifle to counter the storm trigger or do you use them on the fetches? I played TES for a long time and one of the most things I feared is stifle, but many times you can just go off, generate tons of mana and rip their hand so it doesn't matter. It depends on the hand? I'm usually saving it unless I have more land destruction, in that case I just go for their lands.

Thank you, and last question why a lot of people say this deck is not very good right now? In the SCG classec/opens there is always some number of RUG delver in top16. I don't think it's tier 1, but probably just one step below. And by the way i'm by no means a good player with the deck but I manage to win consistently.

[echofish]

Hey guys, some questions regarding the deck:

1. Against miracles, it's good to play the second creature if they don't have top to set up terminus? In the case that you can double your clock playing the second creature, my guess is that it is a good play but i'm not sure.

2. Against miracles you keep dazes on the play? You keep stifle on the draw? It's proven that the mana denial plan is not viable against miracles and the stifles are there for the miracles and probably jace. So probably keep 2? I dunno.

3. When playing against combo(especially show and tell and storm variants) do you side out some creatures, right? I do side out 2 tarmogoyf but probably is better to side out 2 gooses since it's a slower clock. the thing is tarmo costs 2 mana and there are some hands that is risky to play it turn 2. It can be correct to side out tarmos on the play, and gooses on the draw?

4. Against storm do you keep stifle to counter the storm trigger or do you use them on the fetches? I played TES for a long time and one of the most things I feared is stifle, but many times you can just go off, generate tons of mana and rip their hand so it doesn't matter. It depends on the hand? I'm usually saving it unless I have more land destruction, in that case I just go for their lands.

Thank you, and last question why a lot of people say this deck is not very good right now? In the SCG classec/opens there is always some number of RUG delver in top16. I don't think it's tier 1, but probably just one step below. And by the way i'm by no means a good player with the deck but I manage to win consistently.

1. They don't need to top to set up Terminus. They have Brainstorm. The general rule should be not to play more then one creature, but there is ofc situations where you can. e.g: They don't have white mana and you have a hand full of stifles and counterspells, or that you have surgical extracted Terminus. I would not jam out a extra Goose if I didn't have threshold, though.

2. You keep all stifles _always_. Stifleing miracle triggers is how you win the game. Same goes for jace unsummon. And sometimes you get to keep them off white by stifling fetches while you are beating down with a early flipped delver and just win. Most people side out all Dazes, even OTP. I personally leave some copies in if I noticed that the opponent doesn't play around it.

3. It's probably correct to side out some creatures, but this is personal preference.

4. This topic is currently being discussed heavily on the Grixis Tempo section.

5. The deck is good. Don't listen to them.

[LewisCBR]

Annoying, just 4-1'd an online league, but really wanted to 5-0 it, to show the world that Thresh is still good. :)

My only loss was to my 3rd Eldrazi matchup, in the set of 5 matches. AND, it was a re-match. Havent had that happen before in other leagues, but i had just played that guy last night for my 3rd win. I wonder if he finished up his 5 matches and was on a new set?..

Eldrazi is a thing, and kind of tough for this deck. I got lucky on the first two matches, i'll admit, me opponents had less than optimal hands, but couldnt luck sack out the 3rd. Thought Knot Seer on turn 2 is the real deal, especially if they are on the play and jammed a Chalice on 1 turn 1... wtf can you do.

Might have to start main decking Dismembers.

[KobeBryan]

Annoying, just 4-1'd an online league, but really wanted to 5-0 it, to show the world that Thresh is still good. :)

My only loss was to my 3rd Eldrazi matchup, in the set of 5 matches. AND, it was a re-match. Havent had that happen before in other leagues, but i had just played that guy last night for my 3rd win. I wonder if he finished up his 5 matches and was on a new set?..

Eldrazi is a thing, and kind of tough for this deck. I got lucky on the first two matches, i'll admit, me opponents had less than optimal hands, but couldnt luck sack out the 3rd. Thought Knot Seer on turn 2 is the real deal, especially if they are on the play and jammed a Chalice on 1 turn 1... wtf can you do.

Might have to start main decking Dismembers.

I've been maindecking dismember. This really isn't that bad of a matchup.

[tescrin]

Annoying, just 4-1'd an online league, but really wanted to 5-0 it, to show the world that Thresh is still good. :)

My only loss was to my 3rd Eldrazi matchup, in the set of 5 matches. AND, it was a re-match. Havent had that happen before in other leagues, but i had just played that guy last night for my 3rd win. I wonder if he finished up his 5 matches and was on a new set?..

Eldrazi is a thing, and kind of tough for this deck. I got lucky on the first two matches, i'll admit, me opponents had less than optimal hands, but couldnt luck sack out the 3rd. Thought Knot Seer on turn 2 is the real deal, especially if they are on the play and jammed a Chalice on 1 turn 1... wtf can you do.

Might have to start main decking Dismembers.

Daze, Wasteland, etc.. those are pretty live for a 4-mana dude for T2 :p.
I would consider running 1-2 Loams online so you can waste them out. 4c Delver is probably better positioned so you can DRS->Wasteland->Loam T3 and waste again. I've gotten straight insta-scoops from seeing that line.

A couple dismembers seem fine.

Online, you may even remove a couple Stifles since they're not fetching; maybe for some smash to smithereens.

[LewisCBR]

I've been maindecking dismember. This really isn't that bad of a matchup.


I agree, to an extent, but it isnt uncommon to have to Force a Chalice/Thorn turn 1, then deal with a Thought Knot Turn 2. Hopefully you have a Daze, if not, and you dont run Dismember, you are in trouble already. Their best draws, and what i see pretty consistently, is a turn 1 prison card into turn 2 Thought Knot Seer, which takes a pretty specific hand to beat and if you are constantly bouncing your own land to Daze stuff, its pretty easy for them to get a turn 3 Smasher out, then youre simply dead.

Its also pretty common to see the Eye of Ugin, Mimic, Mimic, Endless one on 2 hand dump on turn 1, which is a damn fast clock.

[tescrin]

I agree, to an extent, but it isnt uncommon to have to Force a Chalice/Thorn turn 1, then deal with a Thought Knot Turn 2. Hopefully you have a Daze, if not, and you dont run Dismember, you are in trouble already. Their best draws, and what i see pretty consistently, is a turn 1 prison card into turn 2 Thought Knot Seer, which takes a pretty specific hand to beat and if you are constantly bouncing your own land to Daze stuff, its pretty easy for them to get a turn 3 Smasher out, then youre simply dead.

Its also pretty common to see the Eye of Ugin, Mimic, Mimic, Endless one on 2 hand dump on turn 1, which is a damn fast clock.

Rough/Tumble or Pyroclasm x2 or 3 in the side if it's that prevalent. I'm not saying the MU is suddenly amazing, but it's a stompy deck; they're made to target you; and it's winnable mostly on their own inconsistency with mediocre draws and lack of top-decking. Even you said you won 2/3 of your Eldrazi MUs that day. IMO, that sounds pretty fine.

[Luca Grease]

Hello folks, small tournament report of me playing RUG last week at my bi-weekly Friday night legacy. Nothing extraordinary but it's easier to write this than my thesis presentation. Attendance was 17 players, 5 rounds of swiss and cut to top 4. I brought the following:

RUG 54
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
1 Forked Bolt

Side:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Submerge
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Destructive Revelry


ROUND 1: Against a likable new legacy player on Reanimator. I lose the die roll. I actually know he's on either Reanimator or Merfolk, cause those are the only two legacy decks he's got (and has any familiarity with). In fact, last time we played a couple of games he seemed a bit frustrated with reanimator, so I'm definately smelling some fish. I open on a hand of fetch, fetch, stifle, delver, bolt, bolt, and mongoose, and decide to trust my instincts and keep. Of course he goes for an early Griselbrand. When he starts moving his hand towards the top of his deck to draw 7, I try my best to keep from salivating on my double bolt, but he must still catch a ravenous spasm in my features cause he stops and just passes. I waste myself to reach threshold after dropping mongoose and try to race, but end up 2 points short.

Out: 2 goyf, removal spells
In: Surgicals, Grafdigger, Pyroblasts, Library, Flusterstorm, and Needle (naming polluted delta, which I'm not playing).

G2 I open on a hand of double delver and counters, and instantly relax. The delvers don't flip for like 3 straight turns, but right when it's about to get dangerous, they finally reveal a ponder and from there it's over very quickly.
In G3 I open on a hand with Pierce, Force, Brainstorm, three lands, and some other card I don't recall (perhaps a mongoose). He entombs some insurmountable fatty on turn 1 so I keep pierce up and pass. He reanimates on turn 2, and I cast pierce. He dazes it, so I force. He forces back and that's all she wrote.

Result: 1-2
Total: 0-1 A classic start! Traditions are important...



ROUND 2: against 4-Color Landstill. This guy is one of the best local magic players, but has a penchant for playing nostalgic, stylish but outdated classic decks that no longer cut it in today's ultra-competitive, dog-eat-dog legacy meta (and that's coming from someone who was on RUG delver). Seriously, his deck is basically a miracle deck without miracles and mentors, with a blast from the past motley crew of Mishras, Decrees of Justice, and Standstill instead. I shed a tear every time I'm forced to waste a gorgeous 4-seasons Mishra's Factory, or Pyroblast a Fact or Fiction, or vaporize his army of 1/1 soldiers with Sulfur Elemental. Since it won't be clean, I try to make it quick. G2 is even more brutal thanks to all the anti-blue-control stuff I'm packing in the sb.

Result: 2-0
Total 1-1 Beating up on a beloved, washed up has-been is just the thing for your self-esteem and popularity. Damn, RUG almost felt crushingly powerful in that game (as opposed to an incredibly fragile ballet of snake charming balancing on a thread, always one slip-up away from disaster).


ROUND 3: the infamously slow local player on Miracles. Alright, the real deal this time. The return to the big leagues is quite traumatic. After I mull to 6, my delver gets plowed, he never misses a land drop, and lands a second counterbalance after I counter the first. When I take advantage of an opening to sneak a Tarmogoyf in, he entreats for 2 and drops 2 mentors (I dismember one in a futile last ditch-effort). To the side we go. Not only I'll have to win two games in a row, but I'll have to make it quickly enough against a very slow player, with a strategy that becomes decidedly more measured post-board.

Out: 2 Bolt, 1 Wasteland, 1 Forked, 1 Dismember, 4 Daze
In: Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, 2 Pyroblast, Krosan Grip, Destructive Revelry, Sulfur Elemental, Flusterstorm, 1 Surgical Extraction

We both mull to 6, and I keep an aggressive hand with delver, flusterstorm, stifle, some cantrip and a couple lands, while also making sure the delver will flip thanks to the scry 1. I soon find a second delver and the game shapes up in such a way that my best chance is to just to play as aggressively as possible, since I have strong pressure and soft permission that will protect it for a few turns, but not a lot of mid-late options against his lock pieces (and this is good for me, since I need a fast win in g2). I manage to keep him off balance long enough for the two delvers to get there. He manages to entreat for 1 while at 4 life but I have a bolt in hand.

In G3, I snap keep a one-land opener with TRIPLE Delver. He moans about quite a bit even though he's got two plows and a pyroblast to take care of each of them before I can untap. The pace slows down as I cantrip to set myself up for a longer game. The focus shifts to making sure he doesn't stick a counterbalance, Jace, mentor, or some other hard-to deal with permanent, while presenting a slow and measured stream of aggression. I immediately find the all-star Sylvan Library, but I refuse to just jam it unprotected (I also have a pyroblast in hand), and first test him a bit with a Tarmogoyf, which to my delight eats the first terminus of the game (not only is this a sign of weakness on the Miracles player's part, since he's basically telling you he has no other way to deal with it, I also have the surgical extraction on top of my deck). I then land Library under Pyroblast protection, and force his top when he re-casts it after being forced to flip it during an exchange. From there on, I just I just submerge him with Library's card advantage: the surgical extraction in hand means his termini are no longer an issue, and every Tarmogoyf or Delver that he plows is another card I can draw, so I just stock up on permission for his counterbalances and other permaments and wait for the mongeese, which don't take long to show up. I finish him with a good 10 minutes left in the round.

Result: 2-1
Total: 2-1 Why, things are actually looking up! Just two more wins and I am guaranteed to top 4!


ROUND 4: Eldrazi Stompy. Walking around the tables and chatting in between rounds, I had seen three different players on this foul abomination of a deck, and I just crossed my fingers that I wouldn't run into one of them. I guess that was too much to ask. I only played this match-up a couple of times on cockatrice, but from those experiences, it's as hopeless as a any matchup could possibly be. Basically, you NEED force/daze if on the play in case they have chalice, and if you're lucky enough to prevent that, they'll just start plopping down uncounterable 4/4s and 5/5s you just can't deal with. To make it worse, the pilot is a slightly annoying guy who will acknowledge your every play with an impatient and sarcastic "suuure!" or "hm-mh" and nod. He beat me last time and I'm not looking forward to getting smashed again.
My hand in G1 is about as I good as I can get in this matchup, with Fow, cantrip, lands, a wasteland, a tarmogoyf and a bolt. I lose the roll and I force the predictable turn 1 chalice (cast off a City of traitors, which is good news cause it means he will wasteland himself next turn, making my own wasteland that much better). On turn 2, he taps city of traitors, bins it for some other land, and casts a 3/3 endless one, which eats my eot bolt (everything's falling into place beautifully). I deploy my goyf and pass. He makes his land drop, casts mimic and ships it back. I shuffle a ponder, land the Goose and get to work with Tamogoyf, waiting for a juicier, 2-mana land for my waste. Next turn, he drops a Thought Knot seer and takes a second tarmogoyf out of my hand, seeing the wasteland but little else of value. I untap and draw daze, so I decide to waste his cavern of souls instead, thinking that I might be able to snag something good with it since he won't expect it, and that taking risks is necessary in a matchup as bad as this. Sure enough, he taps out to jam a Reality Smasher, and makes a sound and a face like an imp splashed by holy water when I show him the providential daze. I suddenrly realize that I really might win this game, but my hopes are dashed when he casts a dominating Endbringer, for which I have no hail-mary counterspell this time. In desperate attempt to somehow finish him before his huge monsters take over the game, I send my three creatures (2 goyfs and a goose) against his blockers, knowing that the trades won't be favorable, but that at least I'll get one more hit in, dropping him ever closer to bolt range. Predictably, he blocks a Tarmogoyf with the Endbringer, and gobbles the Goose with the seer. And then, I remember about the turn 1 chalice. You see, it's hidden at the bottom of his graveyard, and all this time we had been playing as if my Tarmogoyfs were 4/5s. But they're actually 5/6s. And what better time for both of us to find out that when he's just blocked one with his 5/5? Alright, there might have been a better time for him, but you get my point... Turns out goyf is a beast against Eldrazi if you can counter one of their artifacts. And so, game 1 is stolen with an incredible reversal of fortune. Although it's nice to get one in, it was such a miraculous game in so many ways that I don't dare expect anything but a quick and painful annihilation in the next two matches.

SB: honestly, half of my maindeck is worth next to nothing here, but, since I hardly have anything to side in, I just limit myself to taking out the worst of it, namely the spell pierces and a few dazes on the draw (or perhaps the gitaxian probes, I can't remember). In come the disenchant effects and a very dubious copy of sylvan library (soo much time to durdle with it while getting smashed for 15 a turn, right?).

In g2, I mull to 6 and keep a one-lander with delver. He wastes me immediately, which is, in my opinion, a mistake, since he doesn't know that I have no other lands, and could be timewalking himself since he has no other play for the turn. However, it pays off cause I never draw another land. He starts dropping Eldrazi and quickly tears me to pieces. The funny thing is, he never finds a way to deal with Delver, and the turn 1 insect gets him down to a dangerous 5 before I die.

My g3 hand is the stone cold nuts, with double wasteland, force, pitch, land and goose. I drop the goose and force his chalice. Waste him twice consecutively, while I draw a third wasteland. With his last sol land, he drops a ratchet bomb and passes. I ponder and shuffle, waste him, get the last goose hit in, and pass, my only land tapped. He charges the bomb eot, untaps, draws (no land) and... passes! I can't believe he's giving me this HUGE opening! Now, I don't have a stifle in hand, so I just untap and calmly, deliberately, announce my draw. No response, just one of those annoying "suuure!". I draw: it's a STIFLE! I almost rub one off right there and then! Goose marches in. He triggers the bomb. It -fucking- fizzles, and the presumptuous Eldrazi get munched to bits by a cute, furry little mammal!

Result: 2-1
Total 3-1 An epic Cinderella story and victory for the ages! I don't think anyone ever found religion while playing magic, but this was a truly miraculous set of games. So many lucky breaks! The surprise buttseks Daze. The sneaky Ubergoyfs. The HOLY MIRACLED Stifle! I rise from the table with a huge grin on my face. My opponent is so furious he doesn't offer me a chance to shake hands, and I don't press him for one. No matter what happens during the rest of the tournament, I'll walk out of there smiling!

It turns out, there isn't a rest of the tournament for me. In round 4, I get matched up against another Eldrazi Stompy player. After learning that the other top tables are going to play their games, I convince my opponent to ID our match, which he accepts since his rating is higher than mine (we're 4th and 5th respectively). Since there are multiple possible combinations of results that would get me into top 4, I'd rather hope for a lucky break than face the insurmountable odds once again. It turns out my luck for the night has finally run out, and I end up 5th on rating, just out of top 4, although by a smaller margin than before the round.

ROUND 4: ID
Total: 3-1-1

And so, yet another tournament where I lose the first round, end up x-1, and get screwed on rating. Whatever, I still had fun, and I am still convinced that ID'ing in round 5 was the right choice. Eldrazi Stompy is just a nightmare MU for this deck, I doubt I'll ever win another tournament round with RUG against it. In fact, as much as I love RUG, I don't think I'm bringing it back into any competitive tournament as long as Eldrazi is a significant part of the meta. Getting locked out by Countertop, manascrewed by Thalia + Port, crushed by SFM, neutralized by opposing Tarmogoyfs, foiled by Decays, frustrated by Shamans, wastelanded into oblivion by Loam decks; all of those things I had come to accept - and even cherish - as a RUG player, as they make those games you manage to steal thanks to efficiency and finesse that much more rewarding. But getting absolutely shat on by a retard-proof modern stompy deck is just too much, and more than an old and storied archetype like this one deserves to suffer.

I hope you guys enjoyed the report: as always, writing it took me longer than I had originally hoped, but I had a few laughs here and there looking back at the improbable situations, so I can't complain. Cheers!

[echofish]

Awesome report, Luca. Very well written :)


Getting locked out by Countertop, manascrewed by Thalia + Port, crushed by SFM, neutralized by opposing Tarmogoyfs, foiled by Decays, frustrated by Shamans, wastelanded into oblivion by Loam decks; all of those things I had come to accept - and even cherish - as a RUG player, as they make those games you manage to steal thanks to efficiency and finesse that much more rewarding. But getting absolutely shat on by a retard-proof modern stompy deck is just too much, and more than an old and storied archetype like this one deserves to suffer.

I should frame this --^

[poxy14]

Awesome report, Luca. Very well written :)
I should frame this --^

+1, i had fun reading that report, thanks Luca!

vs Eldrazi, it really is tough..even when youre holding multiple delvers that can make an unfavorable match for us winnable, a turn1 chalice for 1 is always a major concern for you to have atleast a fow in our opening. goyf is big here.. and if it becomes rampant in my meta, i might bring back 2 copies of tarfires alongside 2 price progress in the sides.

[LewisCBR]

I just untap and calmly, deliberately, announce my draw. No response, just one of those annoying "suuure!". I draw: it's a STIFLE! I almost rub one off right there and then! Goose marches in. He triggers the bomb. It -fucking- fizzles, and the presumptuous Eldrazi get munched to bits by a cute, furry little mammal!


Haha, good stuff, great report. He deserved that top deck by trying to get cute.

[rlesko]

Why would you ponder here and not landing delver? searching for counter backup to save it from being removed?

My wires got crossed here, with the different scenarios being presented. I just reread the situation. Wasteland or Delver, not ponder. But I usually don't wasteland on the draw unless I don't have anything else going on. Its just so much better to waste someone when you have a delver and a land.

[tescrin]

My wires got crossed here, with the different scenarios being presented. I just reread the situation. Wasteland or Delver, not ponder. But I usually don't wasteland on the draw unless I don't have anything else going on. Its just so much better to waste someone when you have a delver and a land.

The problem is that you suspect they have a plow in hand; which is precisely why I thought wasting T1 was good. Yeah, they could plow and then you get another turn to ponder and maybe land a second threat or do Waste + something; but my thinking was: "From the miracles perspective, assuming they have Plow + CB; just jamming CB seems good. You can take 3, Plow their dude, and sit under a CB to get things established."

[rlesko]

The problem is that you suspect they have a plow in hand; which is precisely why I thought wasting T1 was good. Yeah, they could plow and then you get another turn to ponder and maybe land a second threat or do Waste + something; but my thinking was: "From the miracles perspective, assuming they have Plow + CB; just jamming CB seems good. You can take 3, Plow their dude, and sit under a CB to get things established."

Yes but they have no top in play. Game 1 against miracles I try to end the game as fast as possible. If Delver gets plowed then so be it, at least it was not a tarmogoyf. Also, there were only 6 cards specified and he is on the draw, so there are 2 more cards we don't know about. You can paralyze yourself about what your opponent might have and never make a play.

[jlindy]

This is report on SC Open in Philly 2/27

Quick Preview leading up. I have been a stalker of this forum for better part of 4 years but this is my first post. Been playing rug delver (canadian thresh) since Volcanic Islands were about 35 bucks. (at the M10 Sealed event). During the Treasure cruise and DTT I did get distracted by the pyromancer, but I have come back the light side.

I had a baby in August so my last paper magic event was eternal weekend where I did side events since I did not want committed to a long event with a 9 month pregnant wife. During her pregnancy I did not get to play the usually magic events. So it was great to be out, played great players all day long. Very nice, to my opponents thanks for chats.

Colorless Eldrazi

Match 1:

Best match of the day for me..so rug delver on the draw beat a turn 1 chalice twice both on a mulligan when my opponent was not! Lost the die roll.

G1: Tarmogoyf, daze and force did work. Dismember removed any hope. My opponent did a make mistake saying that his cavern made a colorless so I could force (while paying one through thorn.

G2: More of game 1, opponent plays chalice, thorn thorn, on the second thorn I domb him price of progress for 8, to put let the goyf make short work. Again, daze and force and dismember were all stars. Props to goose and ponder to going in void to feed the the goyf


1-0

Match 2:

bUrg Delver

I dont remember this one particularly well, I lost the roll.

G1: Early pressure, Rug Delver thingss,waster, and spell pierce. Bolting shamans, dead openent with a lot of cards in his hand.

I didnt see a pyromancer, but I brought in rough anyway.

G2: stifles, wastes do their job backed by I think mongooses.

2-0

Match 3:

Grixis pyromancer(seemed to be only three color, trop for pyromancer). Lost the die roll.

G1: Goose into stifles, daze and wasteland puts opponent behind on lands, trying to play catch up. A goyf comes in to help finish the job. He does play zombie Fish but to late as a goose gets eaten but a bolt finished the job.

G2: Delver, goyf back by rough and tumble makes short work. I cash in REBs as early as possible. Funny he went pyromancer, ponder, probe and saw a hand that has spell pierce, daze and rough and tumble, he all but shrunk in his seat.

Match 4:
Ant. Lost the die roll. Was not expecting a ton of ant due to eldarzi and challice. My deck is a little softer than normal. I usually play 4 spell pierce and some probes, but had to make room for main deck dismembers.

G1: Opening was double force stifle goose goyf probe and land. I thought a pretty solid hand, but he opened up duress takes force, the therapy naming force and probe that didnt find anymore interaction, he was a turn from dieing but that doesnt help much.

G2: So I open this to you. My hand was 1 ponder, 1 bs, 2 stifle, 2 spell pierce and land. No pressure, so I shipped it. What do you think ? My next set was goose, goyf, reb, peirce and land. I reb his first ponder, I pierce his bs, but he pays with dark ritual, he kills me turn 3.

Match 5:

Mono Black Reanimator/Dark Depths. This dude mulled ALOT, I almost thought he was on dredge. Lost the die roll.

G1 : delvers pressure, spell pierce prevent him from TS/Duress me and seeing my force. Pretty straight forward. He goes to exhume Grisselbrand but force has him.

Now at this time I didnt see the Dark Depths package and thought he was on tinfins. So didnt bring optimal side board

G2: I mulled to 4(didnt see a single land), my 4 were force, stifle, delver land...not bad. I dtile stifle 3 hexmage triggers! Start to pressure him but the thespian stage gets me in the end. I thought about playing a pithing needing naming thespian sage, but i didnt …. figuring I could but at this point I really wanted to BS it away since he could go hexmage or just entomb something

G3: Delvers, and goyfs backed up by forces and stifles makes quick work.


Match 6

Jeskai Delver, never had a kid get time to go the bath room before...that was a first. So remember how I said I haven't gone out and played in over 6 months and more than 3 times in last year. I really felt it. Oh and I lost the roll.

G1: classic delver mirror wasteland back and forth while killing each other's threats. I let a goyf get killed by bolt, I should of waited on, but eventually Goose gets him.

G2: I really mis played this one, and my brain stopped working. I had pressure, but decided to REB a unflipped delver when I had a goose and goyf, told myself mana efficiency at the time blah. But he plowed my goyf and we had a counter war over a tnn, that stalled the board out for him to eventually land a SFM into Jitte. Never found the answers for jitte. If I kept the REB I am pretty sure I win that war because I was left with 2 bolts in my hand and red mana untapped.

G3: Brain is dead at this point. I am sure I made many misplays. I even mulled but goose pressured him down until 5, but he eventually stabilized. Afterwords my brother pointed out a possible winning line that would have giving me handful of outs. So since brain was done I knew it was time to go eat some food with my brothers.


4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dismember
3 Spell Pierce
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Polluted Delta
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Forked bolt
4 Wasteland
4 Force of Will
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard
1 Winter Orb (with the lack of miracles and lands this a bad addition)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rough //tumble Great!)
1 Ancient Grudge (should have been 2)
1 Life from the Loam (brought it in a lot but never drew it)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Fluster Storm
2 REB
1 Krosan Grip (meh distructive thingy next time)
2 Price of progress (when good, good but I dont no if I brought it in enough, kinda of a nombo with Life and wastes)
1 Surgical

So please comment on the deck and the board. And my mis plays. I hope to start to add more rather then just stealing.

[LewisCBR]

Nice report, thanks for sharing.

So, did you drop at 4-2? According to the match reports it seems like that was your record. You should have stuck around a few more rounds!

Personally, on the Match 4 Game 2, i would have kept. Whether it is wrong or right, my rule of thumb is that your opener needs a threat or a can trip to keep (obviously not a hard rule, as a major sideboard silver bullet hoser card could make a keeper, too). I would open with Ponder, not hold up Stifle, but i bet the result would have been the same. If he was able to fight through two of your disruptions on your mull to 6, it sounds like the opener wouldnt have been any better.

Match 6 Game 2, it sounds like that game could have been a haul. If you dont REB the Delver, it eventually flips and blocks the Goose, and he still Paths your Goyf. So your board would be bad, even if you won the counter war over the TNN. He eventually plays the SFM, you bolt it, then you both top deck war each other? I guess that is better than the eventual outcome, but it doesnt sounds like holding the REB would have outright won the game, just the TNN battle.

[KobeBryan]

The splash damage from Eldrazi got miracles playing back to basics man.

[jlindy]

Nice report, thanks for sharing.

So, did you drop at 4-2? According to the match reports it seems like that was your record. You should have stuck around a few more rounds!

Personally, on the Match 4 Game 2, i would have kept. Whether it is wrong or right, my rule of thumb is that your opener needs a threat or a can trip to keep (obviously not a hard rule, as a major sideboard silver bullet hoser card could make a keeper, too). I would open with Ponder, not hold up Stifle, but i bet the result would have been the same. If he was able to fight through two of your disruptions on your mull to 6, it sounds like the opener wouldnt have been any better.

Match 6 Game 2, it sounds like that game could have been a haul. If you dont REB the Delver, it eventually flips and blocks the Goose, and he still Paths your Goyf. So your board would be bad, even if you won the counter war over the TNN. He eventually plays the SFM, you bolt it, then you both top deck war each other? I guess that is better than the eventual outcome, but it doesnt sounds like holding the REB would have outright won the game, just the TNN battle.

Yeah, I dropped at 4-2 I was having a hard time thinking which caused me to want to drop. I said at the top it was my first event in over 6 months and only the third in past year. My brain doesnt have stamina at the moment.

In regards to back basic, being prepared for that isnt much different then being prepared for blood moon or counterlock from them. Get the early pressure and have disruption.

[rlesko]

The splash damage from Eldrazi got miracles playing back to basics man.

Can you elaborate on this comment? Just another 3 CMC fuck-your-lands card, I'm used to miracles playing blood moon anyways.

[LewisCBR]

Can you elaborate on this comment? Just another 3 CMC fuck-your-lands card, I'm used to miracles playing blood moon anyways.

Online, i've had 2 or 3 Counter Top players drop Back to Basics on me in the last week or so, so yeah, they are running that now. Confirmed that one of them told me it was because of the Eldrazi decks. I havnt seen them play Blood Moon in a while.

[rlesko]

Online, i've had 2 or 3 Counter Top players drop Back to Basics on me in the last week or so, so yeah, they are running that now. Confirmed that one of them told me it was because of the Eldrazi decks. I havnt seen them play Blood Moon in a while.

What I'm saying is if people play B2B thats honestly better for RUG than if people were playing blood moon.
-Daze is still live / can allow you to pick a land back up to cast spell
-B2B is countered / destroyed by Pyro/RE blast!!!! So unlike blood moon, its not GG if resolved.

Its a 3 mana enchantment that screws up your lands. My point is this isn't something that RUG hasn't had to deal with before.

[Drake0525]

Hi everyone! It's been a while since I've posted, I have been rather infrequent with my magic lately, but I'm still on Canadian Threshold for the time being. I've been fortunate that there's been no Eldrazi in my LGS Legacy group as of yet (modern got ugly fast). I'm posting today because I'm having trouble with the infect match-up. I was hoping some of the regulars could help me out, there are two infect decks in the metagame right now, and I've yet to win against them.

For reference, I am running Core 54, 1x Snapcaster Mage, 1x Forked Bolt, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Spell Pierce.

Sideboard:
1x Null Rod
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Sylvan Library
1x Submerge
1x Rough//Tumble
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Pithing Needle

Last Week I sided this way: -4x Stifle, -1x Forked Bolt, +1x Pithing Needle, +1x Submerge, 1x Rough//Tumble, +2x REB.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks guys!

[echofish]

Hi everyone! It's been a while since I've posted, I have been rather infrequent with my magic lately, but I'm still on Canadian Threshold for the time being. I've been fortunate that there's been no Eldrazi in my LGS Legacy group as of yet (modern got ugly fast). I'm posting today because I'm having trouble with the infect match-up. I was hoping some of the regulars could help me out, there are two infect decks in the metagame right now, and I've yet to win against them.

For reference, I am running Core 54, 1x Snapcaster Mage, 1x Forked Bolt, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 2x Spell Pierce.

Sideboard:
1x Null Rod
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Sylvan Library
1x Submerge
1x Rough//Tumble
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Flusterstorm
2x Krosan Grip
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Pithing Needle

Last Week I sided this way: -4x Stifle, -1x Forked Bolt, +1x Pithing Needle, +1x Submerge, 1x Rough//Tumble, +2x REB.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks guys!

Add another Submerge and Rough to the sb.

[Luca Grease]

Last Week I sided this way: -4x Stifle, -1x Forked Bolt, +1x Pithing Needle, +1x Submerge, 1x Rough//Tumble, +2x REB.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks guys!

Siding out forked bolt is insanity, as it is probably your best mainboard card against them. Also, as another poster said, Rough/Tumble and Submerge really should be 2-ofs in the side, and both are great against Infect. You also will want to side in library since they're not attacking your life total most of the time (and actively giving your life with invigorate). Taking out stifles is fine, that's what I also do. Post board, you should have so much removal that you can abandon the mana denial plan for a more midrangy approach of just killing every threat they play. Save your wastelands for they nexuses unless they're really stumbling on mana, DO NOT cast removal spells during combat, and the matchup should actually be pretty favorable.

[Drake0525]

Siding out forked bolt is insanity, as it is probably your best mainboard card against them. Also, as another poster said, Rough/Tumble and Submerge really should be 2-ofs in the side, and both are great against Infect. You also will want to side in library since they're not attacking your life total most of the time (and actively giving your life with invigorate). Taking out stifles is fine, that's what I also do. Post board, you should have so much removal that you can abandon the mana denial plan for a more midrangy approach of just killing every threat they play. Save your wastelands for they nexuses unless they're really stumbling on mana, DO NOT cast removal spells during combat, and the matchup should actually be pretty favorable.OK, first of all, thank you for responding with such great detail. I made the suggested changes to the sideboard, so now I have 2 submerge and 2x rough//tumble in the sideboard. I attended my weekly legacy event, but did not face infect this week.

I went 2-1, defeated 4-color Delver, Eldrazi Aggro, and lost round 2 against Sneak-Show.

Against the Eldrazi Aggro player, I got very lucky I think. Totally blew me out game one with a chalice on 1 and a quick threat. Game 2 he had a slow start, I managed to get ahead on board before he Caverned a Reality Smasher into play, we raced, I won with a Tarmogoyf and a violent Snapcaster Mage. Game 3 he didn't get Cavern in his opener, Reality Smasher got countered, by the time he'd resolved a chalice, I had him at 7 (with a Nimble Mongoose and a Tarmogoyf in play), casted a Ponder into the chalice to enable to goose, and attacked for game.

It feels like a shaky match-up to me, but it's like any other deck with inevitably, we stand a better chance of winning if we end it quick.

I'm going to have to do some thinking about Eldrazi and Sneak-show. I feel like I need to be running Dismembers in the deck if I'm facing Eldrazi, and Null Rod does't do anything in that matchup, so I'm thinking of tweaking my sideboard again next week. Thanks again guys!

[echofish]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/385267#online

Interesting list. Thoughts?

[keys]

Lists with Probe aren't anything new. They make your draws worse, but give you information early on, thin your deck, and feed goyf/goose. I wouldn't play them in an open field, but if you don't expect to see much aggro/burn, and you do expect a lot of combo/control (or infect), then an argument can be made for them.

[lilevo]

Well Bahra's list is also only playing 7 fetches, no fork bolts and the SB doesn't look very conventional, with that being said I played a very similar list in 3 legacy leagues and so far I have a combined record of 12-3.

[Jaytron]

Well Bahra's list is also only playing 7 fetches, no fork bolts and the SB doesn't look very conventional, with that being said I played a very similar list in 3 legacy leagues and so far I have a combined record of 12-3.

I think the streamer Romariovidal also was running a 7 fetches list and went 4-1 back to back leagues
EDIT: in 3 leagues so I guess is also 12-3... are you the same person?!

His flex slots were 3 probes, 2 dismember, 1 spell snare, 1 spell pierce

SB:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

That's two lists running 4 reb effects sb, and lots more artifact hate in the sb.

[lilevo]

lol yes, that was me

[Jaytron]

lol yes, that was me

lol!

Did you run RUG in the legacy challenge? If so, how'd it go?

[eldub]

I've been giving some thought to running additional cantrips and dropping to 7 fetchlands (17 total lands). Most of the discussion here has been about using Gitaxian Probe, but has anyone tested with 2-3 Thought Scour in RUG? I like that it greatly improves my chances of early thresh & that I can scour and potentially grow my goyf at instant speed. Having the 'air' in the deck be playable at EOT seems like the place I'd rather be as opposed to something like Probe or Preordain.

Thought Scour likely also plays well in the format against Counter/Top and Brainstorm? It's also cute with Submerge.

Any input appreciated.

Currently testing core 53 (-1 fetch), 2 Thought Scour, 1 Spell Snare, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Dismember, 1 Clique. Keeps my FoW Blue card & my delver flip chances both at 30 g1.

[Drake0525]

I've been giving some thought to running additional cantrips and dropping to 7 fetchlands (17 total lands). Most of the discussion here has been about using Gitaxian Probe, but has anyone tested with 2-3 Thought Scour in RUG? I like that it greatly improves my chances of early thresh & that I can scour and potentially grow my goyf at instant speed. Having the 'air' in the deck be playable at EOT seems like the place I'd rather be as opposed to something like Probe or Preordain.

Thought Scour likely also plays well in the format against Counter/Top and Brainstorm? It's also cute with Submerge.

Any input appreciated.

Currently testing core 53 (-1 fetch), 2 Thought Scour, 1 Spell Snare, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Dismember, 1 Clique. Keeps my FoW Blue card & my delver flip chances both at 30 g1.Thought Scour is kind of interesting. Being fast has never been more important, and I think as long as we're very careful about timing, I don't see any reason not to try it. Maybe brainstorm some useless cards to the top of the deck, then Scour them away.

I don't know that I'd want to drop to 17 lands. My deck feels extremely stable the way it is, and that's important. Remember also that reducing our landslots makes us more vulnerable to opposing mana denial strategies. I'm not completely against the idea, but I think it's risky.

[eldub]

I always found it interesting that a lot of the UR delver lists were down to 16 lands. I've not played the deck myself, so not sure why they can go so much lower, but I'd love to hear some experiences from those that have experimented with land + cantrip counts. Perhaps dropping to 17 in this shell is a mistake, but I do spend a fair amount of my brainstorms trying to tuck them away. Maybe UR having basics is enough to thwart Wasteland and enables 16 to be enough?

[LewisCBR]

I always found it interesting that a lot of the UR delver lists were down to 16 lands. I've not played the deck myself, so not sure why they can go so much lower, but I'd love to hear some experiences from those that have experimented with land + cantrip counts. Perhaps dropping to 17 in this shell is a mistake, but I do spend a fair amount of my brainstorms trying to tuck them away. Maybe UR having basics is enough to thwart Wasteland and enables 16 to be enough?

UR Delver doesnt play Wasteland. Technically, RUG is trying to run on 14 lands, since Wasteland is essentially a spell. Wasteland is relatively useless as a mana source, except for Goyf, Dismember, and maybe some sideboard cards.

In general, i'd say the RUG manabase is even greedier than UR Delver.

[eldub]

I knew I was missing something obvious... thanks LewisCBR. 18 is likely just the most optimal setup, but I'm still going to move forward with testing Thought Scour.

Edit - tested Thought Scour off and on all day today and unfortunately it was just too low impact in a few games where I really needed early disruption. Sometimes it would really shine, but most of the time I just kept wishing it was Spell Pierce or some other form of interaction.

Back to 54 + 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Dismember, 1 V Clique

[Drake0525]

Question for you guys: Do you generally prefer Null Rod or Pithing Needle in the sideboard?

The way I see it, I've got room for only one of them. Pithing Needle might be slightly more versatile in terms of targets because it can shutdown activated abilities of anything. If it resolves against a Deathrite Shaman deck, that is a huge advantage to us. Then again, Null Rod is strictly better if there's multiple artifact targets - Death and Taxes, MUD, etc. I recently swapped out the Null Rod in my board for a pithing needle because of the Eldrazi deck - no targets for Null Rod in there. Then last week I faced Death and Taxes, which, of course, has Aether Vials and a stone forge package - I needled the vials, and took the match, but I kinda missed the Null Rod.

Since I'm back and forth on this issue, I figured I'd ask you guys!

[rlesko]

Question for you guys: Do you generally prefer Null Rod or Pithing Needle in the sideboard?

The way I see it, I've got room for only one of them. Pithing Needle might be slightly more versatile in terms of targets because it can shutdown activated abilities of anything. If it resolves against a Deathrite Shaman deck, that is a huge advantage to us. Then again, Null Rod is strictly better if there's multiple artifact targets - Death and Taxes, MUD, etc. I recently swapped out the Null Rod in my board for a pithing needle because of the Eldrazi deck - no targets for Null Rod in there. Then last week I faced Death and Taxes, which, of course, has Aether Vials and a stone forge package - I needled the vials, and took the match, but I kinda missed the Null Rod.

Since I'm back and forth on this issue, I figured I'd ask you guys!

I prefer pithing needle. can stop everything null rod can (except for lotus petal and LED), plus sneak attack, mom, DRS, planeswalkers, LANDS, etc. Death and taxes is the only MU where I think I would want null rod, but even then, you should have cards like ancient grudge coming out the SB for their equipments and vials.

[mextremartini]

What's your plan against the Eldrazi Stompy deck? I havent found comfortable to play em yet.

[Drake0525]

What's your plan against the Eldrazi Stompy deck? I havent found comfortable to play em yet.This match-up is still extremely shaky. Part of the issue is, I've got a sideboard that deals with a lot of other top-tier decks, but there's hardly any room to run cards for this specific match-up. Torpor Orb would shut off Thought Knot Seer and Eldrazi Mimic, if I had room in the sideboard for it. Right now, it's not prevalent enough in my local metagame to justify cutting something like V-clique out of my sideboard for Torpor Orb.

That being said, I did face Eldrazi Aggro a couple weeks ago (match report is a page or 2 back on this thread), and I won the match 2-1. The best thing to do is end the games as fast as possible. They have bigger threats, and better inevitability than you do, but you have better card advantage and are more consistent than they are.

I sideboarded this way: -3x Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Krosan Grip. My sideboard has since been altered, so the current sideboard plan looks like this: -4 Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Rough//Tumble. Stifle does not do anything in this match-up. In game 1, wasteland is the best target for Stifle, although stifling TKS isn't too shabby. The Sylvan library gives you better card quality, but I don't recommend paying life to it unless your going to end the game that turn. Vendillion Clique can take threats from them before they hit the battlefield and increases your threat density, Ancient Grudge hits Chalice of the Void, and Rough//Tumble kills Eldrazi Mimic and Matter Reshaper. If you happen to have dismember in your sideboard, by all means bring those in, TKS and Reality Smasher are both very dangerous.

Now, during the games, I strongly advise bolting Eldrazi Mimic on sight. Mimic is dangerous, but it dies to Lightning Bolt. Wasteland Cavern of Souls so their threats can be countered. And obviously keep Chalice of the Void off the table. Most of all, establish board pressure and be relentless. If you still have lightning bolts in hand when the time is right, send the bolts at their face and get their life-total down. Put the game away as fast as possible.

It's a shaky match-up, but it is by no means hopeless. I hope this helps!

[KobeBryan]

This match-up is still extremely shaky. Part of the issue is, I've got a sideboard that deals with a lot of other top-tier decks, but there's hardly any room to run cards for this specific match-up. Torpor Orb would shut off Thought Knot Seer and Eldrazi Mimic, if I had room in the sideboard for it. Right now, it's not prevalent enough in my local metagame to justify cutting something like V-clique out of my sideboard for Torpor Orb.

That being said, I did face Eldrazi Aggro a couple weeks ago (match report is a page or 2 back on this thread), and I won the match 2-1. The best thing to do is end the games as fast as possible. They have bigger threats, and better inevitability than you do, but you have better card advantage and are more consistent than they are.

I sideboarded this way: -3x Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Krosan Grip. My sideboard has since been altered, so the current sideboard plan looks like this: -4 Stifle, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 V-Clique, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Rough//Tumble. Stifle does not do anything in this match-up. In game 1, wasteland is the best target for Stifle, although stifling TKS isn't too shabby. The Sylvan library gives you better card quality, but I don't recommend paying life to it unless your going to end the game that turn. Vendillion Clique can take threats from them before they hit the battlefield and increases your threat density, Ancient Grudge hits Chalice of the Void, and Rough//Tumble kills Eldrazi Mimic and Matter Reshaper. If you happen to have dismember in your sideboard, by all means bring those in, TKS and Reality Smasher are both very dangerous.

Now, during the games, I strongly advise bolting Eldrazi Mimic on sight. Mimic is dangerous, but it dies to Lightning Bolt. Wasteland Cavern of Souls so their threats can be countered. And obviously keep Chalice of the Void off the table. Most of all, establish board pressure and be relentless. If you still have lightning bolts in hand when the time is right, send the bolts at their face and get their life-total down. Put the game away as fast as possible.

It's a shaky match-up, but it is by no means hopeless. I hope this helps!

Drop a 5/6 goof in this match-up

Drop the forked bolts for 2 dismembers. Drop the submerges for 2 more dismembers.

You are game

[LewisCBR]

I use Null Rod over Pithing Needle. Even though this deck is supposed to have a pretty good Storm matchup, i really like Rod against LED and Petal. Plus, it is useful against random decks like Grindstone Painter or if Counter/Top tried to side in the Helm/Rest in Peace combo. I cant think of too many instances where i'd rather have Needle, because things like Sneak Attack and Jace are late enough game that i'd rather rely on the mana denial.

[Drake0525]

Drop a 5/6 goof in this match-up

Drop the forked bolts for 2 dismembers. Drop the submerges for 2 more dismembers.

You are gameShe makes an interesting point, but does anyone else like this plan of dropping Submerges for Dismembers in the sideboard? I think it might be worth it actually. Dismember hits many of the same targets as submerge, but it can come in against decks like Grixis, which don't run green.

[KobeBryan]

She makes an interesting point, but does anyone else like this plan of dropping Submerges for Dismembers in the sideboard? I think it might be worth it actually. Dismember hits many of the same targets as submerge, but it can come in against decks like Grixis, which don't run green.

You think a woman can come up with that idea

[Drake0525]

You think a woman can come up with that ideaYou'd be surprised. But if I made an incorrect assumption based on your avatar, my apologies. The question still stands though.

Submerge has been a go-to sideboard card in this deck for a long time. Replacing it with Dismember is either madness or brilliance. I think it's worth testing, so I'll give it a shot this week.

[rlesko]

I'm not sure that the deck can afford to be paying 4 life for removal more than once per game...twice at MOST

[LewisCBR]

I cut one Submerge (still have 1 left) from my board a while ago, there arent many good targets in this meta, right now. RUG is not a very popular Delver variant, and the only other well played Goyf deck is maybe Shardless? At least online, i kept looking at the submerges taking up space in my side and kept wondering why... i might cut the 2nd, too, most times it rots in my hand and i cant think of one game in the last few months where it helped me win.

[KobeBryan]

I cut one Submerge (still have 1 left) from my board a while ago, there arent many good targets in this meta, right now. RUG is not a very popular Delver variant, and the only other well played Goyf deck is maybe Shardless? At least online, i kept looking at the submerges taking up space in my side and kept wondering why... i might cut the 2nd, too, most times it rots in my hand and i cant think of one game in the last few months where it helped me win.

The only thing that it stops is a random knight of the reliquary.

[LewisCBR]

The only thing that it stops is a random knight of the reliquary.

Reliquary is certainly super annoying. The one turn reprieve you get with Submerge MIGHT be enough to win in some circumstances, but it still feels so fringe considering the last 100 matches or so i've played online, i'm not sure this situation has come up. Most of the time i find myself topping a DRS which barely slows anyone down. Because i'm not going to top an opposing Shardless or Strix, of course. There just arent a lot of good targets.

But then you get guys like this (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/391414#online) who play 3 and 5-0 a league, so what the hell do i know, haha. Man, i just lost my 5-0 match for another 4-1. I think i've been 4-0 five times now and lost that 5th match every time.

[LewisCBR]

Yayyyyy.... finally 5-0'd a league online with Thresh a little bit ago. Hopefully my list pops up tomorrow on MTG Goldfish, but it might not since it looks like they already published the 3/30 lists, weirdly. Unless the 3/30 lists are 3/29's 5-0's? Who knows how it works.

EDIT: Aww, yea http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/394401#online

I dont know why this was so important for me to do since there is, of course, insane variance in who you get matched up against, but it was a small goal of mine. I've probably played a match per day since Legacy Leagues started, slowly trying to get there. These leagues are hard, way harder than i expected. I guess i consider it validation that i can still hang in Legacy, after picking it back up from a 3-4 year break from the format.

RUG might not be the most popular Delver variant, but i sure as hell still have fun with it.

[rlesko]

My 2 submerges have been sitting in my board for ages, surely the moment I remove them from the board I'll face Maverick/Jund/Infect first 3 rounds.

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

EDIT: Aww, yea http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/394401#online



How'd the Tarfire work out for you?

[LewisCBR]

How'd the Tarfire work out for you?

I think it is just as effective as Forked Bolt, tbh, if not slightly better. I think it is imperative to have 6 burn spells that can take care of DRS in the main, and I very rarely get a sweet 2-for-1 with Forked Bolt. The instant speed is, of course, very nice. In fact, my winning turn on my 5th match was against Burn and i had a 4/5 goyf out with him at 7. I pondered into Tarfire, attacked, fire'd his face before damage, and won the match. :)

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

The instant speed is, of course, very nice.

I'd imagine it could be very relevant. I'll have to try it out at my next weekly, it seems fun.

[echofish]

And the fact that it gets your goyfs bigger than anglers and smashers.

[LewisCBR]

And the fact that it gets your goyfs bigger than anglers and smashers.

Yes, very relevant in this meta, to get Goyf as big as possible. I was worried about having a lack of sorcery cards to grow him with by replacing a Forked Bolt, but Probe does a fantastic job at that. If anything in my flex spots, Probe is the one that has been amazing. I feel like 2 extra counters and 2 extra burns are all that is needed, while Probe maps out your gameplan game 1, but is an easy shave/cut for more potent sideboard cards in games 2/3, especially if you are bringing in Dismembers. I dont think you can play Probes and Dismembers in the same 60.

Moral of the story, try Probes, too.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Some of you might find this interesting. It's a bit late, but here's my GP Ghent 2012 tournament report: Canadian Threshold at GP Ghent 2012 – Top 32 (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/04/04/canadian-threshold-at-gp-ghent-2012-top-32/)

One of the reasons I am writing this now is that I have picked up the deck again with essentially the same maindeck and a functionally very similar sideboard. My new decklist is included at the end of the report as well.

[Drake0525]

Some of you might find this interesting. It's a bit late, but here's my GP Ghent 2012 tournament report: Canadian Threshold at GP Ghent 2012 – Top 32 (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/04/04/canadian-threshold-at-gp-ghent-2012-top-32/)

One of the reasons I am writing this now is that I have picked up the deck again with essentially the same maindeck and a functionally very similar sideboard. My new decklist is included at the end of the report as well.There are more experienced players of this archetype than I on this board, so what I'm about to say might be totally wrong: I don't like reducing the Tarmogoyf count in the current metagame.

For a card worth so much money, Tarmogoyf was never considered anything too complicated. Yet with Eldrazi Aggro becoming a Tier 1 deck, Tarmogoyf remains an important part of the formula that makes Canadian Threshold the deck that it is. Stifle is a dead card against Eldrazi, but in this match-up, Tarmogoyf keeps us from being entirely outclassed on the battlefield - Tarmogoyf gets an extra boost because the Eldrazi lists run artifacts. I like main decking Dismember. Counter spell as a 1-of is interesting, because people won't be expecting it. There's a lot of other interesting stuff going on in this list, Winter Orb is kinda cool, but when it comes to Goyf and your threat density, you want to reconsider. Don't underestimate Eldrazi, it's a doable matchup, but you need creatures on the field to stand up to that kind of board pressure.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Tarmogoyf is better than it has been in a long time, yes. The third Tarmogoyf is certainly debatable, and Kai is currently trying a list with three copies. I will likely start testing that list soon as well. There are some things to keep in mind though:

1) Tarmogoyf is not the only good creature against Eldrazi decks. In fact, I think Delver is better most of the time even there, plus we bring True-Names from the sideboard.
2) Eldrazi might be one of the most popular and successful decks right now, but it's far from the only one.
3) There is a limit to how many creatures you want to have in your deck. 12 (after sideboarding) is a lot.
4) I'm playing in Europe mostly, where we have a much higher density of combo decks than North America or the APAC region.

In general, it's less about how good or bad Tarmogoyf is and more about the number creatures you have in your deck. Both Nimble Mongoose and Delver are just so much better than Goyf that Goyf is the one to cut. Ciro Bonaventura's second place list from GP Amsterdam also had only 11 creatures, it's just that he cut a Mongoose rather than a Tarmogoyf.

[Koplinchen]

Tarmogoyf is better than it has been in a long time, yes. The third Tarmogoyf is certainly debatable, and Kai is currently trying a list with three copies. I will likely start testing that list soon as well. There are some things to keep in mind though:

1) Tarmogoyf is not the only good creature against Eldrazi decks. In fact, I think Delver is better most of the time even there, plus we bring True-Names from the sideboard.
2) Eldrazi might be one of the most popular and successful decks right now, but it's far from the only one.
3) There is a limit to how many creatures you want to have in your deck. 12 (after sideboarding) is a lot.
4) I'm playing in Europe mostly, where we have a much higher density of combo decks than North America or the APAC region.

In general, it's less about how good or bad Tarmogoyf is and more about the number creatures you have in your deck. Both Nimble Mongoose and Delver are just so much better than Goyf that Goyf is the one to cut. Ciro Bonaventura's second place list from GP Amsterdam also had only 11 creatures, it's just that he cut a Mongoose rather than a Tarmogoyf.

But watching Ciro playing the deck you cant help the feeling he has no idea what is he doing. ;-)

[echofish]

Tarmogoyf is better than it has been in a long time, yes. The third Tarmogoyf is certainly debatable, and Kai is currently trying a list with three copies. I will likely start testing that list soon as well. There are some things to keep in mind though:

1) Tarmogoyf is not the only good creature against Eldrazi decks. In fact, I think Delver is better most of the time even there, plus we bring True-Names from the sideboard.
2) Eldrazi might be one of the most popular and successful decks right now, but it's far from the only one.
3) There is a limit to how many creatures you want to have in your deck. 12 (after sideboarding) is a lot.
4) I'm playing in Europe mostly, where we have a much higher density of combo decks than North America or the APAC region.

In general, it's less about how good or bad Tarmogoyf is and more about the number creatures you have in your deck. Both Nimble Mongoose and Delver are just so much better than Goyf that Goyf is the one to cut. Ciro Bonaventura's second place list from GP Amsterdam also had only 11 creatures, it's just that he cut a Mongoose rather than a Tarmogoyf.

I don't think TNN is that good against Eldrazi. Remember that smasher has trample.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I found myself to be the aggressor in the matchup. Blocking doesn't come up much.

[Homason]

Your Decklist is quit interessting. Never thought about cutting Goyfs but did it for testing yesterday (3 Goyf, 1 Librabry, 3 snare, 1 Pierce , 0 Counterspell). I Crushed Miracles multiple times and i think this it what the Deck is configurated for.
I can see problems facing down other Goyf/Angler Decks with your list pre-Board (3 Submerge in the postboard games are great but Angler cant be subermerged most of the time). This is why i like 2 Dismember a lot in this Deck (I cut a Flexcounter). The 7. Removal is also resonable because most T1 Decks are creaturebased.

The Snare/Pierce Split is always a Meta-Call. I will test 3 Snare and 1 Pierce for a while (Not playing "my" 2nd Dismember) and give you a reply.

Your Arguments for Counterspell are fine (I actually think Snare is the best counter against Miracles ;-)) but it still looks awkward for me.... I will give it a try, at least :cool:.

The Sideboard looks ok to me. I really like Flusterstorm and think you should play at least 1 (remember Miracles brings 3 of them). The TNNs aren`t looking to me (I see its utility against Miracles and Eldrazi). Is this your answer to Angler? Do you bring it against DNT? Iam asking because of the dissynergy with rough//tumble.

Best regards
Homason

[GoldenCid]

Im thinking on going back to my rug...looking through list i found some as the follow that use loam and vortex in sb:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19532&iddeck=148615

In which matches those cards come inside?

thx!!!

[Drake0525]

Im thinking on going back to my rug...looking through list i found some as the follow that use loam and vortex in sb:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19532&iddeck=148615

In which matches those cards come inside?

thx!!!I'm not sure about Loam, but I do run Sulfuric Vortex. I bring Sulfuric Vortex in against control decks, life gain, and ironically enough, I've had some success against Eldrazi with Vortex as well.

[keys]

Loam is often sideboarded in for grindier matchups like Jund or the mirror, but I've always felt it was too slow. Loam/Waste lock doesn't come up that often, and I'd rather play something like Pithing Needle (or just hold up Stifle) to protect my own lands.

[GoldenCid]

Loam is often sideboarded in for grindier matchups like Jund or the mirror, but I've always felt it was too slow. Loam/Waste lock doesn't come up that often, and I'd rather play something like Pithing Needle (or just hold up Stifle) to protect my own lands.

And clique?

[Drake0525]

And clique?Vendilion Clique is good against Miracles. You can respond to the Miracle trigger and make them discard. I also bring Clique in against Sneakshow, Eldrazi, or any deck where I think having hand-attack or an extra threat could be helpful. It's a very versatile card. I would NOT recommend bringing Clique in against Storm, or the Delver Mirror due to its mana cost being too high for those match-ups.

[echofish]

Vendilion Clique is good against Miracles. You can respond to the Miracle trigger and make them discard. I also bring Clique in against Sneakshow, Eldrazi, or any deck where I think having hand-attack or an extra threat could be helpful. It's a very versatile card. I would NOT recommend bringing Clique in against Storm, or the Delver Mirror due to its mana cost being too high for those match-ups.

Clique is superb against Storm. Don't listen to this.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Clique is actually terrible against both Storm and Miracles. Way too clunky and low impact.

[rlesko]

Loam is a trap card in RUG, considering we never want our games to go long and the corner case where you waste-lock your opponent will almost never happen.

I like Clique against both storm and miracles.

Against storm- You can leave up mana for permission and cast it EOT so you never have to let your counter wall down. You can punish them for not sequencing their spells correctly and put something like an infernal tutor on the bottom of their deck while their last ritual is on the stack.

Against miracles - Lowers density of 1/2 CMC threats. Can screw with their miracle trigger and ambush jace. is not a graveyard dependent threat.

[Contract Killer]

Loam is a trap card in RUG, considering we never want our games to go long and the corner case where you waste-lock your opponent will almost never happen.

I like Clique against both storm and miracles.

Against storm- You can leave up mana for permission and cast it EOT so you never have to let your counter wall down. You can punish them for not sequencing their spells correctly and put something like an infernal tutor on the bottom of their deck while their last ritual is on the stack.

Against miracles - Lowers density of 1/2 CMC threats. Can screw with their miracle trigger and ambush jace. is not a graveyard dependent threat.
I agree with most of this except loam. I wouldn't say it's a trap card so much as it's a gamble. Sometimes it works other times it flops kind of like stifle in some match ups. That aside if you expect like 1 lands player in a small weekly is worth it. That match up alone makes loam worth the slot since wasteland is a counter vs their 20/20. It also helps break up maze or chasm locks.

[rlesko]

I agree with most of this except loam. I wouldn't say it's a trap card so much as it's a gamble. Sometimes it works other times it flops kind of like stifle in some match ups. That aside if you expect like 1 lands player in a small weekly is worth it. That match up alone makes loam worth the slot since wasteland is a counter vs their 20/20. It also helps break up maze or chasm locks.

I have a hard time going along with the plan of casting life from the loam against lands. They are most likely focused on waste-locking you, and since they have extra land drops per turn, it seems like a losing proposition. The best way to beat them is to attack them with Nimble Mongoose. Depending on the board state, don't play your Wasteland out, its safer in your hand.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I wrote a few things about the sideboard Winter Orb / Painful Truths list I have been toying around with recently: #theweeklywars #10 — Canadian Threshold (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/theweeklywars-10-canadian-threshold/)

Talking about the Æther Vial matchups, Miracles, Shardless and touching upon Loam strategies.

[keys]

Clique is actually terrible against both Storm and Miracles. Way too clunky and low impact.

I beg to differ: Clique in response to ritual is backbreaking.

Instant speed Thoughtseize + clock is amazing against all forms of combo and totally worth the 3cc.

You can cast it with Miracle trigger on the stack to take away Terminus.

Edit: rlesko beat me to it

[Jonathan Alexander]

I beg to differ: Clique in response to ritual is backbreaking.


When is this better than an additional counter?

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

When is this better than an additional counter?

It's generally better than soft counterspells because they can't just build up mana to protect it. For example if they're just going rit-rit-rit up to 7-8 mana and then casting ad nauseam, spell pierce won't cut it but clique will just take the ad nauseam. It's also just good to have a diversity of disruption because they will often use their cantrips to craft hands which are strong against more counterspells but weak to discard.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Flusterstorm still works there, Counterspell still works there.
Clique is worse than countermagic if any of the following is true:

-they have another business spell in hand
-they draw another business spell with Clique
-you don't have three mana to spare

If you want to diversify disruption, run Null Rod. That card is actually good against Storm.

Also, no competent Storm player will have Ad Nauseam after sideboarding. The card is absurdly bad against Canadian.

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

I think I'm seeing it more as a card that is in the sideboard for other matchups can also be boarded in against storm as opposed to a replacement for current storm sideboard options. I'm not going to run it over flusterstorm but I might cut Sulfur Elemental for it and I'll still bring it in for storm.

Yes, if they have a lot of business it isn't good, but if they don't it's great. You are correct that in more cases the counterspell will be better, I was just saying that there are some cases where it isn't.

I would note that the flash is also really nice because you can hold up things like spell pierce and pyroblast and still play a threat. So I might side out either a goyf or a goose for it.

As for the Ad-Nauseam point, sure. But just replace the Ad-Nauseam in my example with another business spell and it still applies.

[Megadeus]

It's also much better if the storm player has a discard spell. A not so uncommon line is like Ritual, ritual, discard, take counter, ritual, tutor.

[keys]

You need still need to close out the game. You can't just hold up counters turn after turn because eventually they'll play enough lands (or carpet) to nullify your conditional counters, cast a succession of discard, or just ramp into a bunch of goblins.

Being able to flash in Clique end of turn, take their enabler, and apply pressure, is HUGE. Goose and Goyf are so much slower.

[Hrothgar]

It's also much better if the storm player has a discard spell. A not so uncommon line is like Ritual, ritual, discard, take counter, ritual, tutor.

I quote Megadeus.
This is one of the "normal" line of the storm players and, in this situations, Vendilion is better than counter.
Anyway, Vendilion give us a very good clock.

[GoldenCid]

I quote Megadeus.
This is one of the "normal" line of the storm players and, in this situations, Vendilion is better than counter.
Anyway, Vendilion give us a very good clock.

Made 2-2 :frown: with thi list at fnm:

4 goyf
4 delver
4 goose

4 fow
4 daze
4 ponder
4 BS
2 forked bolt
4 stifle
2 dismember
2 Pierce
4 Probe

4 wasteland
3 trop
3 volcanic
8 fetch

SB

1 vortex
1 vendilion
2 rough
2 REB
2 cage
2 fluster
1 sulfur elemental
2 revelry
2 submerge

Any comment is welcome. Ill try to write a little report.

[Drake0525]

Made 2-2 :frown: with thi list at fnm:

4 goyf
4 delver
4 goose

4 fow
4 daze
4 ponder
4 BS
2 forked bolt
4 stifle
2 dismember
2 Pierce
4 Probe

4 wasteland
3 trop
3 volcanic
8 fetch

SB

1 vortex
1 vendilion
2 extraction
2 REB
2 cage
2 fluster
1 sulfur elemental
2 revelry
2 submerge

Any comment is welcome. Ill try to write a little report.OK, so first of all, where are your Lightning Bolts? Lightning Bolt is an automatic 4-of, it gives you removal in the early and mid-game, and reach in the late game. It is an important card in the Core 54, it is one of the ways Canadian Threshold can close out games. You'll occasionally see some players messing with the core 54 to experiment, but I think Lightning Bolt is far too good to cut out.

For purposes of this discussion, here's my decklist:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nimble Mongoose

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stifle
2x Spell Pierce
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Forked Bolt
1x Snapcaster Mage

4x Wasteland
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tropical Island
4x Poluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Submerge
2x Flusterstorm
2x Rough // Tumble
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Krosan Grip
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library

As you see, I am also running Git-probe, but as we are not a Young Pyromancer deck, I think 4x is too many. I do like Dismember in this metagame, we have Eldrazi and Gurmag Anglers to kill, but I probably wouldn't be running Forked Bolt and Dismember in the same list.

Sideboard: Sylvan Library is a big omission, and I'm not the only one on this thread that would say so. I bring that in against all Delver decks, Miracles, and Eldrazi. Destructive Revelry is a nice card, but out of consideration for the Miracles match-up, I urge you to run Krosan Grip - you want to have an out of some kind if a Counterbalance resolves.

[GoldenCid]

Life is not posible withut lightning bolt!
I was typing the deck with memory and frgot and replaced bolts.
The list was -2 pierce -2 probe +4 bolts.

Sorry folks

[Drake0525]

Life is not posible withut lightning bolt!
I was typing the deck with memory and frgot and replaced bolts.
The list was -2 pierce -2 probe +4 bolts.

Sorry folksHAHAHA you did have me going there! That's a relief.

[eldub]

Won the local GPT today for byes in Columbus, overall deck ran well.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/eldub-rug-delver/

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Spell Pierce
2x Gitaxian Probe
2x Tarfire

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
4x Wasteland

SB:
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Dismember
1x Flusterstorm
1x Null Rod
2x Pyroblast
2x Rough/Tumble
1x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Winter Orb

Just a few notes..

- Tarfire was totally playable, even pumped my goyf in a relevant manner to increase my clock one round racing against burn.
- I really like Probe the more I play with it in this shell. I've gone from a single copy to two and they continue to over-perform.
- Surgical was the other all-star of the day. I was playing a mix of cage/extraction before but I'm happy I've made the switch. It's just so flexible and being instant/0cmc leads to the craziest blowouts.
- Considering swapping out the 2x Destructive Revelry for 1x Sylvan Library and 1x Seal of Primordium

Which decks do you board in Sulfuric Vortex besides Miracles or Stoneblade?

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

Which decks do you board in Sulfuric Vortex besides Miracles or Stoneblade?

I've heard people say it's good against lands. No personal experience with that though.

[MTB]

Hi all,

4-1-0 with this list last sunday:

Creatures [11]
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Instants [26]
1 Dismember
1 Izzet Charm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle

Sorceries [5]
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

Lands [18]
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
2 Flusterstorm

1. Round Miracle
Game 1: He mulled down to 5 while i kept 7. I beat him down pretty fast because he is low on lands and get ahead really fast.
Game 2: He plays balance with fluster protection turn 3 -.-
Game 3: I mull to 5 this time while he kept 6. Key interaction was when he flashed snapcaster and i resonded to the trigger (targeting brainstorm) with a surgical. After the game he showed me his hand with 3 terminus and 2 entreat :D
Boarding:
In: +1 Surgical, +2 Sulfuric Vortex, +1Destructive Revelry, +2 REB, +1 Null Rod, +2 Fluster
OTD: -4 Daze, -1 Dismember, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 tropical Island, -1 Wasteland
OTP: -4 Lightning Bolt, -1 Dismember, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 tropical Island, -1 Wasteland
2:1 / 1:0

2. Round bUrg
Game 1: Both keep 7 but i keep a one lander and cant find a second land.....he wastelands me and I die pretty fast.
Game 2: He played a total of 3 Delver 2 Shamane 1 Goyf and 1 Goose this game while I only found 1 Goose after i took down the 3 delvers.
Boarding:
In: +1 Dismember, +2Submerge, +2 REB, +2 Rough//Tumble
Out: -4 Force, -3 Snare (didnt see Goyf in the first game thought he has not more than 1 in fact he had 3)
0:2 / 1:1

3. Round Shardless BUG
Game 1: I keep 7 he goes to 6. I stifle fetches and waste lands at some point i drop a creature and win. I dont know what i am up against (could be BUG Delver or Shardless).
Game 2: I play double delver beating him down while he hyms me but never manages to kill the delvers (one was blocked by strix when he was at 8)
In: +1 Dismember, +2Submerge, +2 REB
Out: -4 Force, -1 Pierce? maybe Izzet Charm
2:0 / 2:1

4. Round UR Control
That was a weird homebrew with fire//ice and curfew. Really sweet.
Game 1: I win because his only answer for goyf and goose are curfew.... and snapcaster curfew.
Game 2: He is at 5 my board is Goyf (4/5) and Goose (treshed) he goes for bloodmoon my hand is Izzet Charm and Force. After a brainstorm I know my top 2 cards are Vortexes so I let the moon resolve and on my turn cast the vortex so he is definitly dead.
In: +2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 REB, +2 Fluster
Out: -1 Dismember, -1 Forked Bolt, -4 Daze(or maybe Bolt?)
2:0 / 3:1

5. Round ANT
Game 1: I go first and kept a mediocre hand. I start with land pass he plays land pass. I dont know what i am up against and decide to make a landdrop and pass. He drops a land and passes again. I think he maybe a miracle and i should start making pressure so Goyf joins the field. He does nothing and passes. Goyf is just 1/2 so I cast another Goyf and beat him down for a few turns (Goyfs get 2/3 bec I bolt him so my clock increases). Goyfs beat him down to 6 then he tries to go off but he didnt find a tutor.
Game 2: I open with delver and interrupt his combo attempts 2 times with a daze that forces him to tap down his only red source so he is unable to cast the empty in his hands :)
In: +1 Surgical, +2 Fluster, + 2REB, +1 Null Rod
Out: -1 Dismember, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 Tropical Island, -3 Goyf
2:0 4:1

The deck felt solid all day and playing 3 Goyfs never felt bad except the matchup against BURG maybe.



Regarding Clique:

Pros:
- Flash Evasive Beater
- Disruptiv Effect
- Harder to Discard than Noncreature spells

Cons:
- 3 Mana are A LOT
- Effect is not back breaking sometimes good sometimes mediocre
- Red blast

Against Combo there are 2 ways to use this card in the storm matchup:
1. Use it as disruption
You keep it in your hand until your opponent tries to go off.

2. Use as beater
You play it asap end of turn to start the beatdown.

In case 1 you have the following problems:
- No pressure so they wont go off without knowing your hand
- you probably tap out so you cant cast additional disruption like Fluster, Pierce or snare
- The effect can be not enough to stop the Combo
- they can brainstorm (hide the key spell keep cantrip in hand)
So this doesnt seem to be the best way to utilize that card.

In case 2 you are confronted with different problems:
- high cmc (you need at least 3 lands and thats definitly not the case turn 3 most of the time)
- you probably tap out (they can fetch you cant stifle)
- the effect is not very powerful eot because they can keep on digging the next turns

Against Miracle snagging a Terminus is nice but compared to other anti Miracle cards (Vortex, library, winter orb) it seems pretty mediocre because after the Trigger it can be removed to easy (4 swords, 3 snapcaster, 3 red blasts, 2 Clique, 4 terminus, 1Counticls Judgement = 17 cards in total) compared to Goyf (swords, snapcaster, terminus, RIP, Counticls Judgement=14) and Goose (Terminus, Clique, Counticls Judgement=7) it seems pretty fragile.

To summarize all said above I think clique is not worth a slot in the board. It is not a bad card but if I play a card in my sideboard I want it to be great not to be mediocre.

Edit: typing error

[Drake0525]

Hi all,

4-1-0 with this list last sunday:

Creatures [11]
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

Instants [26]
1 Dismember
1 Izzet Charm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle

Sorceries [5]
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

Lands [18]
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Null Rod
2 Flusterstorm

1. Round Miracle
Game 1: He mulled down to 5 while i kept 7. I beat him down pretty fast because he is low on lands and get ahead really fast.
Game 2: He plays balance with fluster protection turn 3 -.-
Game 3: I mull to 5 this time while he kept 6. Key interaction was when he flashed snapcaster and i resonded to the trigger (targeting brainstorm) with a surgical. After the game he showed me his hand with 3 terminus and 2 entreat :D
Boarding:
In: +1 Surgical, +2 Sulfuric Vortex, +1Destructive Revelry, +2 REB, +1 Null Rod, +2 Fluster
OTD: -4 Daze, -1 Dismember, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 tropical Island, -1 Wasteland
OTP: -4 Lightning Bolt, -1 Dismember, -1 Izzet Charm, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 tropical Island, -1 Wasteland
2:1 / 1:0

2. Round bUrg
Game 1: Both keep 7 but i keep a one lander and cant find a second land.....he wastelands me and I die pretty fast.
Game 2: He played a total of 3 Delver 2 Shamane 1 Goyf and 1 Goose this game while I only found 1 Goose after i took down the 3 delvers.
Boarding:
In: +1 Dismember, +2Submerge, +2 REB, +2 Rough//Tumble
Out: -4 Force, -3 Snare (didnt see Goyf in the first game thought he has not more than 1 in fact he had 3)
0:2 / 1:1

3. Round Shardless BUG
Game 1: I keep 7 he goes to 6. I stifle fetches and waste lands at some point i drop a creature and win. I dont know what i am up against (could be BUG Delver or Shardless).
Game 2: I play double delver beating him down while he hyms me but never manages to kill the delvers (one was blocked by strix when he was at 8)
In: +1 Dismember, +2Submerge, +2 REB
Out: -4 Force, -1 Pierce? maybe Izzet Charm
2:0 / 2:1

4. Round UR Control
That was a weird homebrew with fire//ice and curfew. Really sweet.
Game 1: I win because his only answer for goyf and goose are curfew.... and snapcaster curfew.
Game 2: He is at 5 my board is Goyf (4/5) and Goose (treshed) he goes for bloodmoon my hand is Izzet Charm and Force. After a brainstorm I know my top 2 cards are Vortexes so I let the moon resolve and on my turn cast the vortex so he is definitly dead.
In: +2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 REB, +2 Fluster
Out: -1 Dismember, -1 Forked Bolt, -4 Daze(or maybe Bolt?)
2:0 / 3:1

5. Round ANT
Game 1: I go first and kept a mediocre hand. I start with land pass he plays land pass. I dont know what i am up against and decide to make a landdrop and pass. He drops a land and passes again. I think he maybe a miracle and i should start making pressure so Goyf joins the field. He does nothing and passes. Goyf is just 1/2 so I cast another Goyf and beat him down for a few turns (Goyfs get 2/3 bec I bolt him so my clock increases). Goyfs beat him down to 6 then he tries to go off but he didnt find a tutor.
Game 2: I open with delver and interrupt his combo attempts 2 times with a daze that forces him to tap down his only red source so he is unable to cast the empty in his hands :)
In: +1 Surgical, +2 Fluster, + 2REB, +1 Null Rod
Out: -1 Dismember, -1 Forked Bolt, -1 Tropical Island, -3 Goyf
2:0 4:1

The deck felt solid all day and playing 3 Goyfs never felt bad except the matchup against BURG maybe.



Regarding Clique:

Pros:
- Flash Evasive Beater
- Disruptiv Effect
- Harder to Discard than Noncreature spells

Cons:
- 3 Mana are A LOT
- Effect is not back breaking sometimes good sometimes mediocre
- Red blast

Against Combo there are 2 ways to use this card in the storm matchup:
1. Use it as disruption
You keep it in your hand until your opponent tries to go off.

2. Use as beater
You play it asap end of turn to start the beatdown.

In case 1 you have the following problems:
- No pressure so they wont go off without knowing your hand
- you probably tap out so you cant cast additional disruption like Fluster, Pierce or snare
- The effect can be not enough to stop the Combo
- they can brainstorm (hide the key spell keep cantrip in hand)
So this doesnt seem to be the best way to utilize that card.

In case 2 you are confronted with different problems:
- high cmc (you need at least 3 lands and thats definitly not the case turn 3 most of the time)
- you probably tap out (they can fetch you cant stifle)
- the effect is not very powerful eot because they can keep on digging the next turns

Against Miracle snagging a Terminus is nice but compared to other anti Miracle cards (Vortex, library, winter orb) it seems pretty mediocre because after the Trigger it can be removed to easy (4 swords, 3 snapcaster, 3 red blasts, 2 Clique, 4 terminus, 1Counticls Judgement = 17 cards in total) compared to Goyf (swords, snapcaster, terminus, RIP, Counticls Judgement=14) and Goose (Terminus, Clique, Counticls Judgement=7) it seems pretty fragile.

To summarize all said above I think clique is not worth a slot in the board. It is not a bad card but if I play a card in my sideboard I want it to be great not to be mediocre.

Edit: typing errorInteresting match report. Your insights into Vendilion Clique are intriguing. If I was to consider cutting Clique out, what would you advise replacing it with?

My current sideboard:
2x Flusterstorm
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Submerge
2x Rough // Tumble
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Krosan Grip
1x Vendilion Clique

[MTB]

I would switch out pithing needle for null rod because you now have the same amount of cards vs storm (only difference null rod is much better than clique) and one less card against miracle (but null rod is better than needle vs. Miracle because it stops top and engineered)
So you have now one slot free for a meta call (second artifact hate, aditional submerge, dismember, sulfur elemental, TNN....)

[LewisCBR]

Hi all,

I write this as i wait for my much delayed plane at the Albuquerque airport to deliver me home to Denver (dang Spring snow storms!). I went to the Sealed format Albuquerque GP this weekend and bombed out of the main event yesterday, but what better way to pass the time, while a few of my friends competed in day 2, than to join the only Legacy event offered, a 5 round Swiss! I'm not sure how many people played in it, but going into the 5th round there were 3 undefeated people at 4-0, so maybe someone here can reverse engineer the math, 40’ish? I played this list:

http://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver/en

Round 1 vs No-one
This was a tough match-up, however I gold-fished my way to a resounding blowout win while my opponent was too scared to even show up. This makes no sense, because the event was at noon and you couldn't even sign up until 11. Who, in their right mind, signs up for an event an hour before it starts and then doesn't show up? Oh well, i took my win and moved on. Win 3-0
1-0

Round 2 vs 8-Rack
I'm not sure if this was a typical discard deck or not as i hardly ever run into something like it online or otherwise. He played Liliana, Hymns, some artifact that makes you draw one extra card, but then discard a card, and then an enchantment that deals two damage to you once you discard. Also sinkholes. Maybe he had Pox, too, but i never saw it. Is Smallpox a thing in Legacy? Ensnaring Bridge came out both games, but he wasnt able to get his hand under Goose's 3 power in game 1; and game 2 i had Grudge at the ready. Pretty unremarkable 2-0 as Goose and Goyf did work (him playing artifacts and enchantments makes for a big Goyf). Win 2-0
2-0

Round 3 vs Belcher
I knew this kid was on Belcher by paying attention to the decks around me last round and i lost the die roll. Typically, i would be very aggressive on my mulligans, due to this knowledge, to try and hit a Force in my opener, but my first seven was super sweet (Daze, Stifle, Pierce, Delver, etc) that i decided to keep it, even without a Force, to see if i could survive the first turn... i didnt. Many mana spells into a Warrens puked out 14 goblins onto the battlefield and i scooped. Game 2 was the exact opposite as my opener had Daze, Force, Goyf, and other goodies and it was a steamroll. Game 3, i again got lucky to have Force in my opener and he, again, just went for it hard on my turn 0, but i was able to Force his Burning Wish and he couldnt recover. This deck is rough to play against, it should be inconsistent, but i seem to get beat by it a lot, usually by Warrens more often than Belcher. Win 2-1
3-0

Round 4 vs Burn
As we sat down, this guy pulls out a pad and 2 dice that he carefully sets up. I'm thinking, OK storm, way to telegraph it, brah, and i keep a counter heavy hand of Daze, Snare, Pierce, Goyf, and whatever stuff. He wins the die roll and drops a turn 1 Goblin Guide. I do a double take and then realize his dice are actually for life totals while his note pad was there for... basically nothing. He never wrote in it that i saw, anyway. Yikes, well, luckily i draw into a bolt to deal with his Guide, Dazed another guide, Snared an Eidolon, and then proceeded to beat down with Goyf and Goose. I won game 1, but he still had a chance to topdeck me on the last turn, luckily he whiffed and we moved to game 2. I'm not sure what he was planning to do game 2, but i got an early Goose loose that went the distance while holding up counter magic. He played the enchantment that works like Eidolon, without the 2/2 body, but i never really had to play anything after that landed. Forces made sure he took damage from his spells, while i just took one, and Goose just kept chipping away until it was over. Pretty weird, he died with 4 cards in hand and i think was just afraid to shock himself while he didnt have an answer to Goose, but that deck doesnt have any answer to Goose. Win 2-0
4-0

Round 5 vs Enchantress
We decide to draw, but played it out anyway for fun. I won the die roll and had a very RUG game 1 of Wastelanding and countering while riding the back of a Goyf, who got huge, thanks to my opponents enchantments and my Tarfire. “What’s your Goyf, a ⅘.?” “Uh, no, its a 6/7.”. Game 2, he was on the play and landed a Rest in Peace while i was tapped out with no Daze or Force. I had a Snare in hand, but opted for the turn 1 Delver, which was a big mistake. Miraculously, Delver just got there, though, but not after i had to Submerge him to the top of my deck to dodge a Swords. Critical play, lucky outcome. Win? 2-0
4-0-1 (5-0-0)

All in all, it was a fantastic ending to a fun weekend. I got a boat load of tickets for the prize wall that i ended up just selling to a buddy of mine for like $120. Not too shabby for a $20 buy-in. Suffice it to say, I am your Albuquerque GP Legacy Champion.

[Jaytron]

Hi all,

I write this as i wait for my much delayed plane at the Albuquerque airport to deliver me home to Denver (dang Spring snow storms!). I went to the Sealed format Albuquerque GP this weekend and bombed out of the main event yesterday, but what better way to pass the time, while a few of my friends competed in day 2, than to join the only Legacy event offered, a 5 round Swiss! I'm not sure how many people played in it, but going into the 5th round there were 3 undefeated people at 4-0, so maybe someone here can reverse engineer the math, 40’ish? I played this list:

http://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver/en

Round 1 vs No-one
This was a tough match-up, however I gold-fished my way to a resounding blowout win while my opponent was too scared to even show up. This makes no sense, because the event was at noon and you couldn't even sign up until 11. Who, in their right mind, signs up for an event an hour before it starts and then doesn't show up? Oh well, i took my win and moved on. Win 3-0
1-0

Round 2 vs 8-Rack
I'm not sure if this was a typical discard deck or not as i hardly ever run into something like it online or otherwise. He played Liliana, Hymns, some artifact that makes you draw one extra card, but then discard a card, and then an enchantment that deals two damage to you once you discard. Also sinkholes. Maybe he had Pox, too, but i never saw it. Is Smallpox a thing in Legacy? Ensnaring Bridge came out both games, but he wasnt able to get his hand under Goose's 3 power in game 1; and game 2 i had Grudge at the ready. Pretty unremarkable 2-0 as Goose and Goyf did work (him playing artifacts and enchantments makes for a big Goyf). Win 2-0
2-0

Round 3 vs Belcher
I knew this kid was on Belcher by paying attention to the decks around me last round and i lost the die roll. Typically, i would be very aggressive on my mulligans, due to this knowledge, to try and hit a Force in my opener, but my first seven was super sweet (Daze, Stifle, Pierce, Delver, etc) that i decided to keep it, even without a Force, to see if i could survive the first turn... i didnt. Many mana spells into a Warrens puked out 14 goblins onto the battlefield and i scooped. Game 2 was the exact opposite as my opener had Daze, Force, Goyf, and other goodies and it was a steamroll. Game 3, i again got lucky to have Force in my opener and he, again, just went for it hard on my turn 0, but i was able to Force his Burning Wish and he couldnt recover. This deck is rough to play against, it should be inconsistent, but i seem to get beat by it a lot, usually by Warrens more often than Belcher. Win 2-1
3-0

Round 4 vs Burn
As we sat down, this guy pulls out a pad and 2 dice that he carefully sets up. I'm thinking, OK storm, way to telegraph it, brah, and i keep a counter heavy hand of Daze, Snare, Pierce, Goyf, and whatever stuff. He wins the die roll and drops a turn 1 Goblin Guide. I do a double take and then realize his dice are actually for life totals while his note pad was there for... basically nothing. He never wrote in it that i saw, anyway. Yikes, well, luckily i draw into a bolt to deal with his Guide, Dazed another guide, Snared an Eidolon, and then proceeded to beat down with Goyf and Goose. I won game 1, but he still had a chance to topdeck me on the last turn, luckily he whiffed and we moved to game 2. I'm not sure what he was planning to do game 2, but i got an early Goose loose that went the distance while holding up counter magic. He played the enchantment that works like Eidolon, without the 2/2 body, but i never really had to play anything after that landed. Forces made sure he took damage from his spells, while i just took one, and Goose just kept chipping away until it was over. Pretty weird, he died with 4 cards in hand and i think was just afraid to shock himself while he didnt have an answer to Goose, but that deck doesnt have any answer to Goose. Win 2-0
4-0

Round 5 vs Enchantress
We decide to draw, but played it out anyway for fun. I won the die roll and had a very RUG game 1 of Wastelanding and countering while riding the back of a Goyf, who got huge, thanks to my opponents enchantments and my Tarfire. “What’s your Goyf, a ⅘.?” “Uh, no, its a 6/7.”. Game 2, he was on the play and landed a Rest in Peace while i was tapped out with no Daze or Force. I had a Snare in hand, but opted for the turn 1 Delver, which was a big mistake. Miraculously, Delver just got there, though, but not after i had to Submerge him to the top of my deck to dodge a Path. Critical play, lucky outcome. Win? 2-0
4-0-1 (5-0-0)

All in all, it was a fantastic ending to a fun weekend. I got a boat load of tickets for the prize wall that i ended up just selling to a buddy of mine for like $120. Not too shabby for a $20 buy-in. Suffice it to say, I am your Albuquerque GP Legacy Champion.

Nice job. Glad you made it through that tough round 1.

RUG Delver also made top 8 in the Columbus Invitational!

Glad to see the deck is still doing well.

[keys]

Just noticed that Jacob Ross's T8 deck had 2 Price of Progress in the sideboard and no Rough/Tumble.

Is this a concession to Lands? Seems like you weaken your Elves, D&T, and Maverick matchups. I'm not sure what to think.

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

Just noticed that Jacob Ross's T8 deck had 2 Price of Progress in the sideboard and no Rough/Tumble.

Is this a concession to Lands? Seems like you weaken your Elves, D&T, and Maverick matchups. I'm not sure what to think.

He talks about it in a podcast here: http://dmcpodcast.libsyn.com/episode-4-adam-the-lavaman-and-the-mana-mazing-jacob
and does say that it's mostly for lands.

I'd note that he has 2 dismember AND 2 Forked bolt in the main. So he may be just relying on those.

He's had 2 other recent finishes as well.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/358005#online
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/368545#online

Edit: the 2 graffdiggers cages also help against elves

[KobeBryan]

Just noticed that Jacob Ross's T8 deck had 2 Price of Progress in the sideboard and no Rough/Tumble.

Is this a concession to Lands? Seems like you weaken your Elves, D&T, and Maverick matchups. I'm not sure what to think.

With that eldrazi deck, playing elves, DT and maverick seems counter intuitive.

[keys]

With that eldrazi deck, playing elves, DT and maverick seems counter intuitive.

I don't see Edrazi squeezing out any of these decks. Maybe elves... slightly? Maverick and D&T can hold their own.

[BottleOnB]

(Jacob Ross here!) I originally had 4 pierce and 2 dismember as the flex spots, but I cut 2 of the pierces in favor of forked bolt to have a little better game against DnT in game one. Normally, I do have access to Rough/Tumble in the board, but gambled and played the PoP's instead for the Lands matchup.

My immediate plans will be to cut the PoP's from the board, and add a Winter Orb (seems decent against lands, and has shown promise against Miracles), change one of the Spell Pierces to a fluster storm, and add substitute the last spell pierce for a rough/tumble. I am also leaning towards cutting destructive revelry as it seemed somewhat unimpressive. This will likely be another rough/tumble, or some sort of "silver bullet" for storm-based combo decks. It may just end up being a spell pierce as that would be the most flexible option, but not as devastating as something like arcane lab, or the mana maze I played in my previous iterations of the deck.

Also, it's nice to know someone is listening to the podcast : )

[James718]

I am confused here on the meta with delver decks and looking for some clarification.

Most people say that grixis and bug delver has pushed RUG out. Is this true? Is this an unfavorable time to be playing RUG delver?

[Jaytron]

I am confused here on the meta with delver decks and looking for some clarification.

Most people say that grixis and bug delver has pushed RUG out. Is this true? Is this an unfavorable time to be playing RUG delver?

Yes, mainly because DRS> Goose IMO

[keys]

Yes, mainly because DRS> Goose IMO

It is and it isn't. DRS is great but it can get shut down in a number of ways, and this isn't a deck that needs mana acceleration.

Having to fetch U Sea is also ugly. I think the number of recent RUG T8s shows the deck is still viable, and part of that is down to its resiliency.

[Drake0525]

It is and it isn't. DRS is great but it can get shut down in a number of ways, and this isn't a deck that needs mana acceleration.

Having to fetch U Sea is also ugly. I think the number of recent RUG T8s shows the deck is still viable, and part of that is down to its resiliency.I agree with this. I would also add that while you're looking at the tier system it is easy to forget that the first tier is as much a commentary on popularity as it is on power level. For example BUG just got pushed out of the first tier, and now the only Tier 1 Delver variant is Grixis. I believe Grixis was considered the least powerful Delver archetype after Dig Through Time was banned? I could be very wrong on that, but I think there's other factors at play that keep Grixis in the first tier over BUG and Canadian.

The point is, Canadian Threshold may not be trending, but that doesn't mean it's any less powerful. Even with Eldrazi's growing popularity in the format, Canadian Threshold top8ed the Legacy Classic at SCG Columbus this week.

[Jaytron]

I agree with this. I would also add that while you're looking at the tier system it is easy to forget that the first tier is as much a commentary on popularity as it is on power level. For example BUG just got pushed out of the first tier, and now the only Tier 1 Delver variant is Grixis. I believe Grixis was considered the least powerful Delver archetype after Dig Through Time was banned? I could be very wrong on that, but I think there's other factors at play that keep Grixis in the first tier over BUG and Canadian.

The point is, Canadian Threshold may not be trending, but that doesn't mean it's any less powerful. Even with Eldrazi's growing popularity in the format, Canadian Threshold top8ed the Legacy Classic at SCG Columbus this week.

Grixis Delver won that Legacy Classic, btw.

Eldrazi is actually trending down, fyi (if you track the numbers on TC decks for April)

People thought Grixis was the would be the weakest post ban, but it is clearly not the case.

I wasn't saying RUG isn't powerful, sure it is, but there are better choices. This is coming from somebody who's played all the delver archetypes (except the new Patriot Delver build with DRS that is being talked about).

Here's a few thing I've noticed with RUG (particularly vs Grixis):

Gurmag Angler outclasses goyf, and comes down almost as fast. (in the matchup, goyf is usually a 4/5)
Gurmag can also sometimes shrink your Goyf
DRS Can keep your Goose small and block it favorably pre-threshold
DRS Can also sometimes shrink your goyf
DRS accellerates their gameplan
Young P goes wide, which is harder to deal with
Young P + Cabal is backbreaking in the tempo mirror


RUG IMO is probably still has the best matchup vs Miracles, purely because of goose. Again, I'm not saying RUG isn't powerful, I love the deck, it's a ton of fun to play, I just think there are better options currently. Which is what James was asking.

[Xerlic]

RUG is often about pulling ahead of your opponent and staying just ahead long enough to win the game. If you stumble, it's often hard to pull back ahead since we have no ways to generate card advantage like Grixis does with Young Pyromancer.

Grixis also attacks from multiple angles. If you're playing against Grixis and they have a DRS (inevitability), Gurmag Angler (bigger than Goyf) and a Young Pyromancer (goes wide) and you draw a Dismember, which one do you kill? I'm obviously oversimplifying the situation, but just trying to make a point.

[Jaytron]

RUG is often about pulling ahead of your opponent and staying just ahead long enough to win the game. If you stumble, it's often hard to pull back ahead since we have no ways to generate card advantage like Grixis does with Young Pyromancer.

Grixis also attacks from multiple angles. If you're playing against Grixis and they have a DRS (inevitability), Gurmag Angler (bigger than Goyf) and a Young Pyromancer (goes wide) and you draw a Dismember, which one do you kill? I'm obviously oversimplifying the situation, but just trying to make a point.

Yep, all these points make sense.

[keys]

Here's a few thing I've noticed with RUG (particularly vs Grixis):

Gurmag Angler outclasses goyf, and comes down almost as fast. (in the matchup, goyf is usually a 4/5)
Gurmag can also sometimes shrink your Goyf
DRS Can keep your Goose small and block it favorably pre-threshold
DRS Can also sometimes shrink your goyf
DRS accellerates their gameplan
Young P goes wide, which is harder to deal with
Young P + Cabal is backbreaking in the tempo mirror



Grixis/4c Delver has always been favored against RUG (pre-sideboard at least), but it isn't necessarily better against the rest of the field (Miracles being a notable match, as you mentioned). If you're concerned about the Delver mirror, there are plenty of ways to sideboard effectively for it.

You can even go all-in on threshold and play Tarfire in the flex slots, at which point Goyf outclasses Angler, and you have more instant speed removal for DRS on turn 1.

[mextremartini]

A great weapon against Grixis is ROUGH/TUMBLE. It just dismantle their creatures, but angler. Hold dismember for it and it's all good!

[Jaytron]

Grixis/4c Delver has always been favored against RUG (pre-sideboard at least), but it isn't necessarily better against the rest of the field (Miracles being a notable match, as you mentioned). If you're concerned about the Delver mirror, there are plenty of ways to sideboard effectively for it.

You can even go all-in on threshold and play Tarfire in the flex slots, at which point Goyf outclasses Angler, and you have more instant speed removal for DRS on turn 1.

I think Grixis feels better against the rest of the field. With it's SB options, it can grind better against Midrange decks, and still be the aggro deck in control matchups.

Anyways, the argument is more or less that Grixis is likely better (the numbers show it) but RUG is still a powerful deck (which I agree with also).


A great weapon against Grixis is ROUGH/TUMBLE. It just dismantle their creatures, but angler. Hold dismember for it and it's all good!

Yeah, Rough/Tumble is great

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

Hey guys, I’ve been enjoying winter orb as a sideboard card a lot recently. One of my friends jokingly suggested I should mainboard it. So I decided fuck it, why not? I played it at a weekly event last night. Here is the list I ran:

54 Standard RUG Cards
4 Spell Pierce
1 Forked Bolt
1 Winter Orb

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Rough // Tumble
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 PRice of Progress

Round 1: Grixis Delver
G1: I lose the die roll. He leads volcanic into delver and I follow up with the same thing. His fails to flip and I flip a brainstorm. He plays 2 Deathrites which I kill I run out a goose a few turns later while holding up spell pierce. I have a turn where I’m holding 2 ponders and a spell pierce. I opt to hold the pierce up and he casts an angler. I get a ⅘ goyf out and draw into winter orb. The thought occurs to me to try and find a counterspell for my own winter orb to make my goyf bigger than angler, but I don’t find one in time. Well, that’s what I get for main-decking winter orb I guess...

Sideboarding: -2 FoW -1 pierce -1 winter orb + Dismember + 2 rough // tumble + 1 Pyroblast

G2: I lead T1 goose into t2 2 Delvers which taps me out so I can’t hold up stifle, he bolts one eot, fetches an underground sea and plays and angler. I’m worried this will be a repeat of last game. I swing with delver putting him to 13 he plays 2 of his own delvers next turn and swings with angler putting me to 14, I swing again with delver and goose putting him to 7, then. He swings with 2 delvers putting me to 8 and holds angler back to block one of my geese so that he’ll be at one after I swing. I brainstorm into a bolt and he doesn’t have countermagic.

Sideboarding: -2 Pierce + 2 force

G3: I’m on the play and keep Fetch, waste, stifle, spell pierce, delver, FoW, Ponder. I lead the fetch and pass. He leads U-sea>ponder which I spell pierce, he dazes the pierce. I draw another delver and cast Ponder since I assume he will replay the U-sea. I’m trying to find a second land and don’t see one so I shuffle and draw Stifle. He replays the U-sea and casts deathrite, which I force pitching a delver. I wasteland him. He plays a fetchland which I stifle. I hold trop untapped for one more turn since I have 1 more stifle left, he passes without playing a land. I run delver out and the game ends pretty quickly from there.

Record: 1-0 (2-1)

Round 2: Death & Taxes
G1: I’m ashamed to say I lost this game because I really shouldn’t have. I lead delver, He mulls to 5 and leads port into aether vial which I daze. He plays another aether vial turn 2 off a second port. I waste one of his ports and swing several times. He plays stoneforge and fetches Jitte, I fail to realize this means he already has a batterskull in hand and I play greedy with my stifles. I play out a winter orb to make it more difficult for him to play on the lands he has., I’m sitting on 3 spell pierces in hand now. I get him to 1 and he gets a batterskull out, lays down thalia, taps one of my lands, and plows my delver while I can’t cast spell pierce, and wins from there. Had I been much less of an idiot I would have held a stifle for the living weapon trigger. Lesson learned.

Sideboarding: -2 force, -2 pierce, -2 daze, - winter orb, + 2 rough // Tumble, + sulfur elemental, + dismember, + ancient grudge, + destructive revelry + 1 Sulfuric Vortex

Game 2: I play turn 1 goose, turn 2 goyf, he slams rest in peace and it’s pretty much over from there. I don’t find delver or destructive revelry until I’m already dead on board.

Record: 1-1 (2-3)

Round 3: 4 color loam

I was sure this guy was on 12-post because he played it for like 5 years. I hadn’t seen him in a while though. I probably should Have realized he was on loam when he played badlands into Mox Diamond discarding grove of the burnwillows, but it took him playing out dark confidant for me to realize that he probably wasn’t running emrakul in his deck. Nevertheless he was low on lands and while he decayed my delver and goyf, an early mongoose gets him down to 4. I have 2 trops and a volcanic out. He plays a wasteland and casts liliana with 2 mana up (presumably playing around spell pierce) i'm holding daze and stifle. I let liliana resolve, stifle the -2 and daze my stifle (paying for it) to pick up my volcanic so I can hold it away from his volcanic until I draw a red spell. I end up getting a bolt off the top for the win.

G2: -4 daze -2 force -1 forked bolt + 2 submerge + 2 surgical +2 price of progress + 1 dismember

I play t1 delver, daze his confidant (not sure why he kept this in, seems kinda bad), t2 goose. Delver flips and swings twice before getting decayed. I get him down to 7 with goose and cast price of progress for exactsies.

Record: 2-1 (5-3)

Round 4: He wants to draw and go play standard with one of his friends. I agree as 1) I need to go home as well, 2) he was on maverick and I don't like my chances.

Overall none of the matchups where Orb is supposed to shine, except perhaps loam although I basically just got lucky both games and didn't draw it. That was a good thing though since I got to experience exactly why it's not a mainboard card. Both games I drew winter orb were games where I absolutely didn't want it, and I got punished hard for using it in one of them. If I wanted to take that kind of risk I'd be playing a different deck. I think it will stay in the sideboard for now.

Newbie lesson learned :)

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

I play out a winter orb to make it more difficult for him to play on the lands he has., I’m sitting on 3 spell pierces in hand now.

I should also add that I got extremely punished for playing that winter orb. It fucked me WAY more than it hurt him.

Still love it in the side though, where I can avoid having it against decks like that.

[Hrothgar]

In a meta with many Grixis Delver and Team America, there's no sense to play Winter Orb maindeck.
Draw it in the first 7 cards is egual to mulligan.

Imho Winter Orb is a great card for sideboard, if we found the slot for add her.
The 15 Canadian side cards are too few many times!

:laugh:

[James718]

I've been play testing this deck a lot lately (mainly because people kept saying how "dead" it is). One Tarfire in the main and one in the SB has been amazing. And I feel very confident in the grixis matchup.

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

In a meta with many Grixis Delver and Team America, there's no sense to play Winter Orb maindeck.
Draw it in the first 7 cards is egual to mulligan.

Imho Winter Orb is a great card for sideboard, if we found the slot for add her.
The 15 Canadian side cards are too few many times!

:laugh:

I've been playing it in the side for a while. I'm pretty much using Jacob Ross's list ( http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/358005#online) with a few small changes. The card has been amazing against shardless, miracles, and lands/loam. I think it basically fills the same role as Sylvan library.

[Drake0525]

I've been playing it in the side for a while. I'm pretty much using Jacob Ross's list ( http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/358005#online) with a few small changes. The card has been amazing against shardless, miracles, and lands/loam. I think it basically fills the same role as Sylvan library.Winter Orb is interesting, although I can only think of a couple of match-ups where it might be useful. It's pretty good against Miracles, because it squeezes the mana they have to spin the Tops with. I plan to try bringing Winter Orb in against Cloudpost, next time I see that.

I'm also going to try Tarfire in the main, I kind-of like the idea of giving Tarmogoyf that boost.

[Contract Killer]

I've tried winter orb before and it's ok but not great. The problem with it in the match ups you want (miracles shardless) is that you need a threat for it to be effective. This sounds basic tempo strategy but is slightly less obvious when looking at orb.

The majority of the time you land it will be the turn after you play your threat which is the best window. Now if miracles can swords/terminus it and dodge your daze/Pierce then you're way behind. Shardless can also just decay your threat which is a bit better for us since is 2cmc and we would have the orb out. Here's the problem though if you don't follow up your first threat with another or have another land it's like painting yourself into a corner. Goyfs we draw seem like they're 3 mana between untapping after a bolt/pierce/snare. Cantripping becomes harder to sequence into threats.

This is all just conjecture from my own experience, but overall it seems too high variance. The one match up it's great in is show and tell. They're constantly tapping out to cantrip and makes their combo turn a one shot chance.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Jonathan Alexander]

Winter Orb is ridiculous against Miracles period. You don't even need threats, you have Winter Orb and you're suddenly the better control deck.

[eldub]

Anyone notice the latest 5-0 on MTGO was playing a pair of Disrupt? Kinda cute.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/410252#paper

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

Anyone notice the latest 5-0 on MTGO was playing a pair of Disrupt? Kinda cute.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/410252#paper

That's pretty spicy. I'd just be worried about running something in that slot that can't counter CB, RiP, or Chalice.

[eldub]

I still prefer Gitaxian Probe in the spot for a number of reasons, I just thought it was worth mentioning as an option for those looking for more interaction or cantrips.

[MTB]

Disrupt has nothing in common with probe. Probe just cycles while Disrupt can give cardadvantage O.o but sadly its most likely too weak as we already play daze which can be dead fast.

[NARO]

I 3-0d the two last weekly leagues with this deck. It's incredible how this deck performs when you figure out what you have to do, and I still consider myself a noob with the deck. I play the usual 54, 3 pierce, 2 forked, 1 dismember. My matchups were 2-0 miracles, 2-1 affinity, 2-0 dragon stompy, 2-1 team amerca, 2-1 UR delver, 2-1 pox.

One thing that I still have doubts it's when my hand has only 1 fetch land but green and red spells. I usually fetch green if i'm the beatdown or vs combo decks and red if i'm the control deck. But when I don't know what my opponent plays I don't know what to do most of the times. When I have ponder/brainstorm it's easier since you will probably find another fetch, but when you don't seems hard. Can someone shed some light?

Greets

[keys]

I 3-0d the two last weekly leagues with this deck. It's incredible how this deck performs when you figure out what you have to do, and I still consider myself a noob with the deck. I play the usual 54, 3 pierce, 2 forked, 1 dismember. My matchups were 2-0 miracles, 2-1 affinity, 2-0 dragon stompy, 2-1 team amerca, 2-1 UR delver, 2-1 pox.

One thing that I still have doubts it's when my hand has only 1 fetch land but green and red spells. I usually fetch green if i'm the beatdown or vs combo decks and red if i'm the control deck. But when I don't know what my opponent plays I don't know what to do most of the times. When I have ponder/brainstorm it's easier since you will probably find another fetch, but when you don't seems hard. Can someone shed some light?

Greets

You don't usually need to fetch red first unless you need to bolt something right away like a DRS or Mom. But it's important to not make yourself vulnerable to Wasteland, so you might not even want to break your fetch right away if you suspect that. It also really depends what your first turn play is.

[Contract Killer]

I 3-0d the two last weekly leagues with this deck. It's incredible how this deck performs when you figure out what you have to do, and I still consider myself a noob with the deck. I play the usual 54, 3 pierce, 2 forked, 1 dismember. My matchups were 2-0 miracles, 2-1 affinity, 2-0 dragon stompy, 2-1 team amerca, 2-1 UR delver, 2-1 pox.

One thing that I still have doubts it's when my hand has only 1 fetch land but green and red spells. I usually fetch green if i'm the beatdown or vs combo decks and red if i'm the control deck. But when I don't know what my opponent plays I don't know what to do most of the times. When I have ponder/brainstorm it's easier since you will probably find another fetch, but when you don't seems hard. Can someone shed some light?

Greets
If you don't have goose then fetch red first. This is partially match up dependent but the basis of it is as follows. Delver you can play off volcanic. Goyfs you will need a second land to play anyways. This also means that if you fetch volcanic there's another tropical in the deck to find with your cantrip. This also allows you access to your removal early vs deathrite and other delvers.

The match up dependent part is pretty much as you described. Against combo prioritize green mana so that you can land your threats early and fast. This is also probably one of the few times where playing goyfs off of tropical and waste is reasonable.

Another thing to take into consideration when playing ponder is should I crack my fetch. Personally I think that if the plan is to ponder into threat and play it that turn then fetching into ponder is right. This way you can get a threat out of the top 3 and another good card then shuffle away the worst. The deck has a lot of conditional cards so I've found that the line ponder - > fetch -> threat can lead to some awkward top decks. I would also play ponder like this if I'm holding reaction (stifle, snare, pierce, bolt etc) then planning to play the threat next turn.

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[MTB]

Most of the time you want to fetch green first. If you fetch green first you can ponder or brainstorm into 2. land for bolt. Compared to a volcanic as first land you can ponder or brainstorm into a goose. Beeing able to cast removal spells is much more useful because you dont need to deploy the goos as fast as you have to bolt a Mom, shamane or whatever.
So summened up its like this:

Open with trop -> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Volcanic -> Castable: Lightning Bolt, fokred Bolt

Open with volc-> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Tropical-> Castable: Mungoose

So the only possibility that the leading with a volc seems better is:
1. Bolt is useless (no need to Bolt something he might drop in his turn asap)
2. You have pressure the opponent VERY fast so you need every single damage
3. Opponent doesnt play Daze



Regarding Ponder:

Cracking a fetch before pondering is wrong. The probability that you find a thread AND a useful card is much lower than finding a threat and shit. So if you did fetch before you have to decide if you want: a.) draw the thread but also 2 shit cards or b.) shuffle and not getting the threat.
Summed up
1.) Threat, shit, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder
2.) Threat, good, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder (could depend if you have a second shuffle effect)
3.) Threat, good, good - only possibility that its right to fetch first

So the chances that cracking first is good seem very very small.

[LewisCBR]

Most of the time you want to fetch green first. If you fetch green first you can ponder or brainstorm into 2. land for bolt. Compared to a volcanic as first land you can ponder or brainstorm into a goose. Beeing able to cast removal spells is much more useful because you dont need to deploy the goos as fast as you have to bolt a Mom, shamane or whatever.
So summened up its like this:

Open with trop -> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Volcanic -> Castable: Lightning Bolt, fokred Bolt

Open with volc-> Ponder/Brainstorm -> fetch Tropical-> Castable: Mungoose

So the only possibility that the leading with a volc seems better is:
1. Bolt is useless (no need to Bolt something he might drop in his turn asap)
2. You have pressure the opponent VERY fast so you need every single damage
3. Opponent doesnt play Daze



Regarding Ponder:

Cracking a fetch before pondering is wrong. The probability that you find a thread AND a useful card is much lower than finding a threat and shit. So if you did fetch before you have to decide if you want: a.) draw the thread but also 2 shit cards or b.) shuffle and not getting the threat.
Summed up
1.) Threat, shit, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder
2.) Threat, good, shit - better to crack fetch after Ponder (could depend if you have a second shuffle effect)
3.) Threat, good, good - only possibility that its right to fetch first

So the chances that cracking first is good seem very very small.



This is excellent rule of thumb advice. I've had a few instances where i didnt crack a fetch before Ponder, saw 3 great cards, and regretting the choice, but i agree that IN GENERAL it is correct to not crack that fetch. Gotta play the odds.

Opposite color fetching, is sort of a term with this deck. Its risky, but if you have a hand with Bolts, one fetch land, and a Ponder, it might be correct to get the Trop, so you can Ponder into another fetch, to ultimately get that Volc and have Bolt mana up. When it works out, it is beautiful.