[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Jonathan Alexander]

There's also the factor that in local events, a much higher percentage of your opponent will be on niche-decks, which Canadian traditionally struggles with. This is part of the reason I'm no longer grinding MTGO Leagues with the deck.

[MasterBlaster]

Hmmmm, very interesting using 2 tarfire to increase Tarmogoyf...

I tried 2 Tarfire in the past. It doesn't feed Goyf consistently enough, and does nothing extra for Mongoose or Delver. I prefer the 2-for-1 of Forked Bolt but my testing is limited.

[Tiago]

What do you think about to create a whats app group for canadian players?

[Contract Killer]

There's also the factor that in local events, a much higher percentage of your opponent will be on niche-decks, which Canadian traditionally struggles with. This is part of the reason I'm no longer grinding MTGO Leagues with the deck.

Yeah I love the deck and feel very confident in my abilities playing it. I'm probably going to play it at chiba in November. Just getting-got by nic fit, Merfolk and wading through a vomit of dnt has been upsetting as of late. Oh and 4c loam that's a match up I'm fine playing just need to get better at it.

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[plowshares]

Does anyone feel like this deck is never a good deck to main constantly at your LGS? I've always found that I can do well at large events locally and even better abroad when people don't know what I'm on. Then when I play weekly 4 round events I average probably 2/2 - 3/1. I'm just curious if anyone else also feels that this deck is at a huge disadvantage when people know you're on it vs when they're blind.

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Yeah, everyone plays around stifle and waste against me from the get go. I have tried playing other decks (I've enjoyed elves and tried Shardless and maverick) at local scgs and such, but I always regret it when I don't play Canadian. There isn't another deck in magic that suits me like it does.

[LewisCBR]

Yeah I love the deck and feel very confident in my abilities playing it. I'm probably going to play it at chiba in November. Just getting-got by nic fit, Merfolk and wading through a vomit of dnt has been upsetting as of late. Oh and 4c loam that's a match up I'm fine playing just need to get better at it.

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To be fair, all the Delver variants are going to struggle with the decks you just mentioned.

I talk myself out of switching to Grixis Delver all the time. It obviously puts up better results, but im really not quite sure what matchups it is better than RUG for. It seems like the matchups that are hard for RUG would also be hard for Grixis? I dont know, like Plowshares says, this deck just plays Magic the way i like to play, so its hard to give up!

[iceagedisenchant]

How do people feel about the new Prelate? It makes me wary, but I am not overly worried, though I seem to see a fair bit of D&T so am considering options. At the moment I feel like I want to drop my 1-of Forked Bolt and Dismember for 2x Sudden Shock main. Seems like it could help with other issues too. Any criticisms?

[Cliq]

How do people feel about the new Prelate? It makes me wary, but I am not overly worried, though I seem to see a fair bit of D&T so am considering options. At the moment I feel like I want to drop my 1-of Forked Bolt and Dismember for 2x Sudden Shock main. Seems like it could help with other issues too. Any criticisms?

My experience is that it is significantly easier to kill than chalice just by being a creature. Obviously if all your removal is 1cmc it will get you good. I'd run dismember for awhile.

[Contract Killer]

To be fair, all the Delver variants are going to struggle with the decks you just mentioned.

I talk myself out of switching to Grixis Delver all the time. It obviously puts up better results, but im really not quite sure what matchups it is better than RUG for. It seems like the matchups that are hard for RUG would also be hard for Grixis? I dont know, like Plowshares says, this deck just plays Magic the way i like to play, so its hard to give up!

Yeah the match ups I mentioned has more been a personal meta ditch I've been stuck and was more of a side note. I'm just curious if I'm the only who feels the decks power level increases exponentially when you're under the radar. I know that's what it's felt like at both grand prixs that I've played at. Even shardless feels winnable when you go fetch pass (otd) snare there runner, untap drop goyf, force their next big play etc.

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[Tiago]

Grixis vs Canadian - matchups - Which is better?

Grixis vs Canadian - Canadian has advantage
__
ANT/TES/Belcher/All Spells - Canadian
Team America - Grixis
Miracles - Canadian
Patriot - Grixis
Affinity - Similar
Dredge - Similar
Aggro Loam - Similar
Shardless BUG - Similar
Sneak and Show - Similar
Infect - Canadian
Blades - Grixis
Burn - Similar
Lands - Canadian
Death and Taxes - Grixis
Maverick - Canadian
Eldrazi - Grixis
Elves - Canadian
Goblins - Similar
Merfolk - Canadian
Jund - Canadian
Reanimator/Tin Fins - Canadian


What do you think? Let's discuss in this way, If you disagree tell me and help me to remember more match ups.

[Laser Brains]

Has anyone tried Hidden Gibbons over Nimble Mongoose? A 4/4 for for 1 with a drawback that is in my opinion thee equivalent to acquiring threshold. Also, neither creature is bolt bait. Is a 3/3 with Shroud better than a 4/4 with no abilities?

[Tiago]

Has anyone tried Hidden Gibbons over Nimble Mongoose? A 4/4 for for 1 with a drawback that is in my opinion thee equivalent to acquiring threshold. Also, neither creature is bolt bait. Is a 3/3 with Shroud better than a 4/4 with no abilities?

Impossible in legacy.

[Cliq]

Has anyone tried Hidden Gibbons over Nimble Mongoose? A 4/4 for for 1 with a drawback that is in my opinion thee equivalent to acquiring threshold. Also, neither creature is bolt bait. Is a 3/3 with Shroud better than a 4/4 with no abilities?

Goose would be unplayable without shroud, so no, I don't think so.

[Contract Killer]

Grixis vs Canadian - matchups - Which is better?

Grixis vs Canadian - Canadian has advantage
__
ANT/TES/Belcher/All Spells - Canadian
Team America - Grixis
Miracles - Canadian
Patriot - Grixis
Affinity - Similar
Dredge - Similar
Aggro Loam - Similar
Shardless BUG - Similar
Sneak and Show - Similar
Infect - Canadian
Blades - Grixis
Burn - Similar
Lands - Canadian
Death and Taxes - Grixis
Maverick - Canadian
Eldrazi - Grixis
Elves - Canadian
Goblins - Similar
Merfolk - Canadian
Jund - Canadian
Reanimator/Tin Fins - Canadian


What do you think? Let's discuss in this way, If you disagree tell me and help me to remember more match ups.

I would look at the distinct differences first rather than match ups and go from there. Understanding how the decks differences work and even out is much more useful than a list of match ups and which one is better.

a)threats: Rug Delver has the most efficient/mana threats in legacy period. There's just no denying this. Goose having shroud wins you match ups while goyf is the best power you can get for 2 mana.

Now if we look at grixis threats they have deathrite, YP, angler and TNN. Deathrite serves as a more efficient threat vs combo since goose can sometimes have trouble getting to threshold if all we're doing is holding a grip full of counters. YP can go wide whereas goyf is I think at least half a turn faster initially. They're somewhat similar, but again goes back to the fact that goyf is more efficient while YP is better as the game goes on. Angler is a slightly better goyf that can dodge decay, but also will only be viable turn 3 at the earliest and is worse in multiples. The only real reason why I'm listing TNN in here is that he's more accessible in this shell.

B) disruption: cabal therapy single handedly tips the scales of combo match ups in grixis favor. That card is absurd and even more scary if you're good with it. After that the only real thing to point out is grixis has better accessibility to dismember. It can also run stuff like murderous cut.

Overall grixis is probably better because of how yp, deathrite and to a lesser extent angler get their damage through. They're not as efficient is the key thing to realize. This is where rug gains a lot of margins vs miracles and uwx blade control because those decks have a much harder time dealing with goose than they do any of grixis' threats. Even decks like 4c loam have more trouble with goose than deathrite or yp because they can just p-fire them. It's just throwing around percentages I don't think either is strictly better.

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[Contract Killer]

Is anyone here planning to go to chiba and want to meet up to test in Japan?

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[Tiago]

I would look at the distinct differences first rather than match ups and go from there. Understanding how the decks differences work and even out is much more useful than a list of match ups and which one is better.

a)threats: Rug Delver has the most efficient/mana threats in legacy period. There's just no denying this. Goose having shroud wins you match ups while goyf is the best power you can get for 2 mana.

Now if we look at grixis threats they have deathrite, YP, angler and TNN. Deathrite serves as a more efficient threat vs combo since goose can sometimes have trouble getting to threshold if all we're doing is holding a grip full of counters. YP can go wide whereas goyf is I think at least half a turn faster initially. They're somewhat similar, but again goes back to the fact that goyf is more efficient while YP is better as the game goes on. Angler is a slightly better goyf that can dodge decay, but also will only be viable turn 3 at the earliest and is worse in multiples. The only real reason why I'm listing TNN in here is that he's more accessible in this shell.

B) disruption: cabal therapy single handedly tips the scales of combo match ups in grixis favor. That card is absurd and even more scary if you're good with it. After that the only real thing to point out is grixis has better accessibility to dismember. It can also run stuff like murderous cut.

Overall grixis is probably better because of how yp, deathrite and to a lesser extent angler get their damage through. They're not as efficient is the key thing to realize. This is where rug gains a lot of margins vs miracles and uwx blade control because those decks have a much harder time dealing with goose than they do any of grixis' threats. Even decks like 4c loam have more trouble with goose than deathrite or yp because they can just p-fire them. It's just throwing around percentages I don't think either is strictly better.

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Good point, really. I feel Canadian is better on practice than theory. If you compares goose against shaman, well, is ridiculous. Shaman is a better card. But shaman dies and sometimes doesn't work the way you imagine. I play in a strong field and my results are really good. I will write some considerations about the last tournment (last sunday) but I can tell you that I won TES and Sneak and Show without one single delver.

[Tiago]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21268&iddeck=162884

I was second, with 5 wins and 1 loss. I'll do a mini-report writing what I remember.

Bye
2x0 TES
2x1 Omni-Sneak
2x1 Eldrazi
0x2 Deadguy Ale (BWG Blade)
2x0 RUG Delver

-
Bye - As I had won the previous step, I had the right to one bye in the first round.
-
2x0 TES - started in draw

G1: I knew the deck of my opponent, I kept a hand with 1 goyf, 1 daze, 2 waste, 3 fetchs. He fortunately not comboed in t1, then I used 2 waste on his lands in two consecutive turns (fortunately it did not come with fetch to get the basics). He had problems for a while with lands and I managed to cast goyf. The game was still very tense because I had not imposed an early clock, but I wn in the last round it was possible.
G2: I opened with mongoose and was annulling the disposal of discards and combo. I left him with little life and ad nauseam was not effective enough for him complete the combo. It was a very difficult game, I had to hit with mongoose and goyf, and both are not good against storm. Goyf was beating 2-3 and mongoose 1 for many rounds.
-
2x1 Omni-Sneak - started in play

G1: Open tropical / mongoose (I hate open mongoose, especially without fetch, but it was what I had). My clock was very weak until the end of the game, left him with 9 life, counter 1 show and tell, but I could not undo the next intuition. Few counters, no clock, some burns ... I lost the G1.
G2: I started again with mongoose in T1 and T2. I do not remember many details of that game, but I used some important wastelands and he ended up "killing himself" with the tombs. In the end, he was 10 of life, solved a sneak attack, made grisel, drawed 7, but did not come nothing. Next turn I beated with goyf and mongooses. WON.
G3: I keepo a GREAT hand. 1 Fetch, 2 brainstorm, 2 fluster, 1 daze, 1 fow .. but no creature. Drawed a card, downed a fetch and passed .. in my next turn, I drawed a card (not land) and casted a BS to find land ... NO LAND. Then complicated. The game was far away, and I was countering everything I could. Then one hour finally came land and goyf. I won in last turn possible. It was tight, a game that had everything to be good for me. As if this were not enough, instead of my opponent combo with show and tell, he comboed 3x with sneak, causing my flusters become food for fow. Nothing about Delver so far in the tournament.
-
2x1 Eldrazi - started in the draw (this Eldrazi was colorless / white, had thalia, gaga and Revoker)

G1: I won the game in detail, it was well fought. I do not remember very well, I was very focused on the game. I remember he did thalia in t2, t3 gaga and I was only defending myself (including my mana base, stifle the waste) and trying to kill his creatures. Then I did Delver and goyf and win the race. I had some problems with Jitte, but managed to overcome.
G2: He started with mana / mox / chalice in t1 and I had no fow. There has complicated everything. I still played very well, TNN + goyfs almost won the game yet, just almost.
G3: Open mana / Delver. He tried again to make chalice to 1 at T1, but I had a savior daze of all homelands. I destroyed his white mana, was depending on mox, I destroyed with natural state. He casted a batterskull, I destroyed it with grudge. And the Delver beating. He tried to cast the Eldrazi 5/5 trample, but had another daze. Then I made another goyf and won.
-
0x2 Deadguy Ale - started the play

G1: I opened well with mana/Delver, then immediately casted goyf, the game has developed and he ended up winning with 1 life. I believe I had made a mistake in this game. There was a time that I attacked his liliana with 1 creature, but if I had attacked the player could have won, there was no need to attack liliana.
G2: I made a very amateur mistake in this game that committed irreversibly the game. He made gaga in t2 and took batterskull. I was holding a bolt and a natural state. Did not kill gaga for believing that the natural state destroyed the batterskul. I tested this card for the first time in the tournament. The first thing I did when I got home was take it from the side and return to the destructive reverly. This match was a complete disaster, I played very badly, completely unfocused. I deserved defeat, without taking the merits of my opponent played very well, especially in G1.
-
2x0 Mirror - started in draw

I went into this match with a chance to be champion yet. My opponent was a very experienced and skilled player, it was a very difficult match.
G1: Starting at the draw in the mirror is a very stressful experience. Even more he opened mana / Delver. He used the strategy of winning in the race, countering several my removals, attacked the mana base and I went to 7 life. In the middle / end of the game we were both with 1 Delver and 1 mongoose on the desk, but I managed to find more creatures (+1 +1 Delver and mongoose) and turn the match.
G2: I kept a hand with one fetch and 1 waste. I did not find lands for a 3 turns unitl come the second land. Meanwhile it took Delver pressure. I had to appeal to dismember because he had annulled the bolts and forked, leading my life to 4. When I finally killed the Delver and cast 1 mongoose, he comes with goyf. I cast submerge and 1 goyf, he destroyed with dismember anyway ... was a bartering until in the end I had controlled the board. I had 2 stifles in my hand and he 2 fetchs standing. I managed to put 2 delver and 1 mongoose on the table as he had 1 Delver and 1 mongoose. Then I went banging 1 leaving the other to block. I won last turn possible, he was one of life and could not use a fow would guarantee victory.

I had some luck in the last three tournaments with RUG, history 15V-4L-0D. These four games I lost were: 1 Burn, 1 Team America, 1 Deadguy Ale and 1 Eldrazi.

I will make some changes in the side, but I intend to keep the main deck as is.


Sorry my english, I guess you can understand, I have not practiced very much.

=D

[Jaytron]

What do you think about to create a whats app group for canadian players?

I'd lean towards an FB chat. There's a few other decks out there that have FB groups+chats to discuss stuff

[Tiago]

I'd lean towards an FB chat. There's a few other decks out there that have FB groups+chats to discuss stuff

Of course! Add me> https://www.facebook.com/tiagoblauth

[now]

I'd lean towards an FB chat. There's a few other decks out there that have FB groups+chats to discuss stuff

Isn’t this sort of what The Source is for?

[LewisCBR]

Isn’t this sort of what The Source is for?

Yes.

[Jaytron]

Isn’t this sort of what The Source is for?

Meh.

FB chat is quicker for discussions. Other archetypes have them and it seems to be fine. But it's not like enough people play RUG anyways.

[LewisCBR]

Well, got my name up on the new MODO League Leader Board thing with this build:

http://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver

I went through 2 Grixis Delver decks, UR Delver, Eldrazi, and a Merfolk to get the 5-0. I think this build is great for creature mirrors. The extra Tarfires in teh main came up huge to get Goyf out of Dismeber range, be bigger than Smashers/Anglers, and of course just as extra kill spells to pick off their dudes. Tarfire would be garbage if it wasnt Instant speed, though. The deck ran hot and i only lost 2 games in the run, there was a dicey moment vs one of the Grixis Delver decks, but i got a very timely Ponder into Rough that killed my opponents unflipped Delver, a DRS, and a Lavamancer. Rough can be such a blowout. I plan to run this exact 75 in the Legacy Challenge tomorrow and i'll probably stream it. Although, the wife and I have a 6 week old baby now, so streaming could be chaotic, we'll see.

I've totally dropped Winter Orb from the board and i'm not looking back. I didnt see Miracles this run, but i've been doing very well against it with this build, too. The last few times i've played an Orb on them i didnt feel like it was doing enough for me and i would get top locked too often in spite of it. Turning off Top via Needle or Null Rod is just better.

Speaking of Leagues, why did they change things up? I liked knowing my opponents wins/loses, but now you dont get to see that, only a list of people who 5-0'd. Seems weird, you cant browse through the other people in the league and how they are doing.

Anyways, happy Goosin'.

[now]

Well, got my name up on the new MODO League Leader Board thing with this build:

http://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver

What’s your reasoning for choosing Gitaxian Probe over, say, Spell Pierce?

[Atreyu]

@LewisCBR: I find your lists always really interesting, thank you for sharing! I have some comments/questions about your choices:

I can understand the usage of Probe; it looks nice knowing what's happening and using our resources correctly and I think I'm gonna try it too.
One thing I noticed is the absence of Dismember: how do you feel without it? Is the plan "grow the Goyfs", using Tarfire, enough to overcome opponent fatties?
Is this the reason why you are using one Submerge in the side?
I think Sylvan Library is also a way to improve the chances to see all those 1 of, am I wrong?
I also noticed the absence of Sulfur Elemental in the side and the choice of using Sulfuric Vortex instead (I guess one usually side them in for the same matchups: Miracles and Death&Taxes): personally I prefer the Elemental because he can be cast under Thalia (Vortex requires 4 and I find pretty impossible to play it) and it has Split second. Which is the reason why you preferred the Vortex?
I'm using one Winter Orb main instead of a Goyf but I'm still not convinced about it and most of the times I have preferred to draw something else; Orb however fits better with Spell Pierce and this is why my flex slots by now are 2xSnare, 2xPierce, 1xForked, 1xDismember.

Well, I hope those are not so many questions but I like your build and would like to talk about it and know more about your choices.

Thanks.

[Contract Killer]

So I'm going to a large tournament in the near future and I'm trying to figure out my board. This is what I've got so far I think it's good, but I haven't tested it a whole lot yet:

54 stock
2/2/2 snare, pierce, dismember

2 sulfur elemental
2 pyroblast
2 rough/ /tumble
2 price of progress
2 flusterstorm
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 ancient grudge

The premise of the board is to have all around good cards for each specific match up. Why I say that is I don't like orb since I only really want it vs miracles. I've also just had bad experiences with the card where I drop it; they jam terminus; counter war ensues they win it. Then I'm stuck under my own orb trying to chain cantrips I'm drawing into me threats. I'm open to opinions of the card, but it just feels to virtual card advantage oriented and if it doesn't land at the right time your opponent can leverage it against you. This is the reason for double elemental which I think is quite good right now for both miracles and dnt getting a huge boost recently.

The two price of progress are there as a concession to eldarazi being better than I would like to admit. Currently it serves two roles. The first primarily to kill eldarazi. The second is to hose shardless bug and inadvertently lands. This does leave me a bit cold to UGx delver shells, but those are not played as much right now so I think it's a fair trade off.

[LewisCBR]

What’s your reasoning for choosing Gitaxian Probe over, say, Spell Pierce?

I dont know, i always felt like Pierce was weak. You will barely hardly ever pierce a Swords or Terminus, I feel like there are far more threatening 2 CMC spells so I'd rather have Snare. Non-pierce'able spells like Snapcaster, Stoneforge Mystic, Young Peezy, other Goyfs, and even Baleful strix are much juicier targets. People play around Pierce too often lately and I dont even play it, so I feel like its doing something anyway. Probe helps feed the yard for Goose and feed Sorcery's to Goyf. I've taken some weird lines that have won me games after a Probe that i otherwise wouldnt have thought to do. Probe is great in a Stifle deck, its working for me.


@LewisCBR: I find your lists always really interesting, thank you for sharing! I have some comments/questions about your choices:

I can understand the usage of Probe; it looks nice knowing what's happening and using our resources correctly and I think I'm gonna try it too.
One thing I noticed is the absence of Dismember: how do you feel without it? Is the plan "grow the Goyfs", using Tarfire, enough to overcome opponent fatties?
Is this the reason why you are using one Submerge in the side?
I think Sylvan Library is also a way to improve the chances to see all those 1 of, am I wrong?
I also noticed the absence of Sulfur Elemental in the side and the choice of using Sulfuric Vortex instead (I guess one usually side them in for the same matchups: Miracles and Death&Taxes): personally I prefer the Elemental because he can be cast under Thalia (Vortex requires 4 and I find pretty impossible to play it) and it has Split second. Which is the reason why you preferred the Vortex?
I'm using one Winter Orb main instead of a Goyf but I'm still not convinced about it and most of the times I have preferred to draw something else; Orb however fits better with Spell Pierce and this is why my flex slots by now are 2xSnare, 2xPierce, 1xForked, 1xDismember.

Well, I hope those are not so many questions but I like your build and would like to talk about it and know more about your choices.

Thanks.

- I think you should, its been pretty good. However, i think if you go with Probe you have to forgo Dismember, its simply too much life to give up.
- See above, since i want to run Probe I dont think i can also play Dismember. I also simply like Tarfire's better than Dismember as extra kill spells since it can go to the face, and it kills the cards i care about, like DRS. I try to fight Anglers on the stack because they are a pain, but Tarfire has that Goyf byproduct. I usually leave a couple Forces in against the Grixis Delver matchup, because i figure we are the aggressive deck, so i have no problem Forcing Angler.
- Submerge is great in the Infect and Depths matchups. Bouncing a Merrit Lage is the only way we can deal with it. A lot of the old lists used to always run 2 Submerge, but in the meta nowadays even one might be too many. I'm not sold yet on this card, but it is pretty awesome when it is good.
- I think Legacy in general is fine for 1-ofs. With Ponder, BS, and Library, you have a good chance to find your one-of.
- Death and Taxes isnt even really a deck online. The cost of Ports are so absurd that you hardly ever see it. But, i think 6 kill spells main and 2 Rough/Tumbles in the side make this matchup doable. Even still, i'd probably try to find room for a Sulfur Elemental or two in the side for a paper tournament.
- Orb seems to make sense when you are Daze'ing and Piercing, but i agree with what Contract Killer just said; it hasnt felt great lately when i've played it. I'm either under my own Orb or is isnt impactful enough in general. I dont think i'm going to play it for a while and see how i feel.


Thanks for the kind words, but some days i really dont feel like i know what i'm talking about. I'd like to think i have my finger on the pulse of the meta pretty well and I've had some good 5-0's online lately, but today was another bad showing in the Legacy Challenge online. I went 1-3 drop, losing to 3 Miracle decks. Two of those, were real bad Miracle players, but i just couldnt get anything going. I prefaced my last post by saying this build is good vs creature decks, but i also thought it was doing pretty well against Miracles lately... until today. Super gross losses. But, Snare still did more work than Pierces would have. I was probably just a little too loose on my keeps and i def ran into a post shuffle Terminus topdeck that wrecked me, and one guy got me on a second Blood Moon after i had a pretty slick play to able to counter his first Blood Moon. Was bad beats all day. Oh well, always next month.

EDIT: Legacy Challenge results and decklists are up, a Tarfire/Probe RUG list got 9th: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-premier-2016-09-11

[Hrothgar]

Well, got my name up on the new MODO League Leader Board thing with this build:

http://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver

Anyways, happy Goosin'.

Hi Lewis,
solid list imho.

I have played Tarfire and Gitaxian in a Mandrills list and they work very good.
You play 4x cards who pump the Goyf, better then standard list (only 4x sorcery) and this is a good condition for beating.
Tariffe is very good vs Reality Smasher, because you can cast Tarfire in da face in response to attack and block.
Maybe Dismember is better in some situation but Tarfire and Dismember in the same deck is a bad thing vs other Tarmo.

Imho the list is solid and Gitaxian make simply some situation.

[IslandDelverGo]

What’s your reasoning for choosing Gitaxian Probe over, say, Spell Pierce?

Hi, everyone. Long time, first time.

This is my big conundrum right now as well. I'm a big fan of the 2/2/2//Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Dismember in the flex spots, and I'm pretty dogmatic about the other 54 being untouched. I had some success for a while with doing 4 Gitaxian Probe and 2 Forked Bolt, then putting 2-3 Spell Pierce in the SB. I feel like unless we're super tuned in to the meta, either Forked Bolt (or Tarfire/Seal of Fire, for the adventurous) xor Dismember have got to be in those slots for main-deck removal—and I'm not gonna play Dismember and Probe together, as I think we're all probably on board with for the most part.

Do Gurmag Angler, Eldrazi, and opposing 'Goyfs present enough of an issue to force me into playing Dismember in the main? This is my question. If anyone's in the mood to wax philosophical about Probe vs. Dismember in our flex spots, I'll be happy to think out loud with you. I'm going to SCG Indy just to play in the Classic before Eternal Weekend in Columbus and GP Louisville, and despite spending the last year or so building and trying to play BUG, 4C, and Grixis Delver, I'm back home to RUG. But right now I just can't decide to go with probes or not. Has such a major effect on the SB too. Probes are great, but Spell Pierce and Spell Snare are so devastating when your tempo game is on point. Untapping with SP/SN in hand with your insect in the air and being able to protect him is starting to make more and more sense.

P.S. @ Contract Killer: I play a very similar SB too, only I enjoy Krosan Grip instead of Null Rod and often an extra Surgical. Any reason why you specifically like the 2/2/2 you've got there and not Probe? I will say my 'Goyfs do tend to suffer from only having the four sorceries in Ponder—another argument for the Probe/Forked Bolt situation.

[Contract Killer]

@IslandDelverGo
I personally have always liked 2/2/2 snare, pierce, x split. The last two fluctuating between removal spells. The sorcery count has never really been a problem in my book.

Remember that after fetching, force, gix probe, ancient tomb, etc people lose a decent amount of life on their own. Specifically people's starting life total in legacy tends to be 18. The importance of this is 18/3 = 6. So any threat x 6 in our deck will kill. This means that the difference between a 3/4 and a 4/5 goyf when facing other non goyf decks ie combo, control variants, opposing delver decks, etc is not relevant.

I do think dismember is a necessity right now. Between opposing Goyfs, anglers, thought seer, and smasher there's so many threats that we can't efficiently answer post stack. I haven't tried seal of fire yet. Look at Jonathan's blog the weekly wars and he has an article about it which could tell you more.

The phrexian mana and running both dismember and probe I'm not sure about. My experience with Probe has been:
look at opponents hand, draw...
still can't deal with card xyz in opponents hand
I've always wanted the flex pierce, snare etc rather than the information + random 54 stock card. It's great turn 1 after that though it's sub par I think. Just work on reading your opponent and sequencing.

[keys]

Please don't play Seal of Fire. If you want to run more burn that pumps Goyf, play Tarfire. At least Tarfire is an instant and it flips Delver.

[Whitefaces]

Please don't play Seal of Fire. If you want to run more burn that pumps Goyf, play Tarfire. At least Tarfire is an instant and it flips Delver.

The downside of Tarfire is it can be eaten by DRS and shrink Goyf in the Grixis Delver matchup. Pros and cons to both.

[keys]

The downside of Tarfire is it can be eaten by DRS and shrink Goyf in the Grixis Delver matchup. Pros and cons to both.

Well, the idea is to target the DRS with the Tarfire...

[Contract Killer]

Please don't play Seal of Fire. If you want to run more burn that pumps Goyf, play Tarfire. At least Tarfire is an instant and it flips Delver.
Same thing Dissection said. It seems bad, but if the premise is to grow goyf past angler range especially in the grixis match up then it makes sense. At the very least Jonathan is an amazing player and think it's worth trying out.

https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/canadian-threshold-sideboarding-guide/

[LewisCBR]

Unfortunately, this deck doesnt have crazy Probe synergies, like with Cabal or Young Peezy, but i do think the information is relevant for a Stifle deck and i cant count the amount of times i've been happy with it in my yard for Goose. There is nothing worse than having a 1/1 Goose for what feels like forever against Miracles. A turn 1 fetch into Goose followed up by a turn 2 Ponder that shows you a Probe and another good card is not Magical Christmas land, but the norm. You stack it to where you can cast the Probe and then draw the card you actually want, of course, now have information and a decent graveyard.

I've liked the 2 Probes a lot and i dont think ill change it for a while. I actually have not been impressed with Dismember when i ran it main. I dont think my win rate has changed against Eldrazi without Dismember main, and in fact, i feel like i'm doing very well against that deck lately with just huge Goyfs and Delvers. It really comes down to if they get a Canvern or not, IMO.

Angler is super annoying, but is only a 2 of in a deck you might run into 2 times out of ten, even online where its popular. Its a Delver mirror, that 4 damage is huge, especially if it just gets countered anyways. I wish there was a better way to deal with Angler, but there simply isnt, so i'm going to just keep trying to beat it on the stack, or hope they dont draw their 2 of. I keep a few Forces in post board against Grixis, because we are the aggressive deck here. Besides, a lot of time you just have 2 Goose out and Angler cant attack into that anyways. Lets be honest, we dont lose this matchup to Angler, its DRS. Always DRS.

My flex spots lately have been 2 Probes, 2 Snares, 1 Pierce, 1 Tarfire. I cut the second Tarfire i've been posting about recently for a Pierce, it feels fine. Goyfs are usually always big vs Eldrazi since its likely you counter an artifact. Only 5 ways to kill DRS kind of scares me, though. DRS just gives me nightmares, card is insane against us.


EDIT:: I just read Jonathan's blog post that Contract Killer linked and i respectfully disagree with the direction he takes the deck a lot of time. To me, the Delver mirror DOES feel like whoever sticks a Delver wins, i would not board them out. The double Delver draw is often times unbeatable. In addition, he inadvertently plays the control role vs Grixis Delver which i dont agree with at all.

The Seal of Fire in the side sounds pretty sweet, though, i could probably find room for that and would like another Goyf grower/DRS killer, especially one that cant be exiled by another DRS.

It looks like he is still on Winter Orb main with like 2 more in the side, where as i've removed Winter Orb entirely. It always felt clunky to me, even though in theory it should be good. I only ever liked it when my opponent would tap out, i would Daze the spell, then slam Orb, which didnt come up enough for my liking.

This is a pretty hyper aggressive tempo deck, RUG control with Delvers doesnt feel like what i want to be doing.

[IslandDelverGo]

@IslandDelverGo
Remember that after fetching, force, gix probe, ancient tomb, etc people lose a decent amount of life on their own. Specifically people's starting life total in legacy tends to be 18. The importance of this is 18/3 = 6. So any threat x 6 in our deck will kill. This means that the difference between a 3/4 and a 4/5 goyf when facing other non goyf decks ie combo, control variants, opposing delver decks, etc is not relevant.


Yeah, this is a good thing to think about. Plus, I don't always jam my 'Goyfs, so in my experience I haven't had too much of a problem with their size once they hit the field. However, continued below ...


Unfortunately, this deck doesnt have crazy Probe synergies, like with Cabal or Young Peezy, but i do think the information is relevant for a Stifle deck and i cant count the amount of times i've been happy with it in my yard for Goose. There is nothing worse than having a 1/1 Goose for what feels like forever against Miracles. A turn 1 fetch into Goose followed up by a turn 2 Ponder that shows you a Probe and another good card is not Magical Christmas land, but the norm. You stack it to where you can cast the Probe and then draw the card you actually want, of course, now have information and a decent graveyard.


I do notice sitting around with 1/1 Geese for a while without the Probes; this is one big thing they've got going for them—they're easy to cast and do get you there on your Nimble Mongoose a bit quicker. This can matter when you're starting to run low on resources, although I think at the end of the day I'm in Contract Killer's camp: in general, I'd rather actually have the resource I already need in SP/SN/Dismember than have a probe in my hand.

Still, I'm a bit worried about a flood of D&T with all their new toys, so I'm worried about giving up Forked Bolt in the main as my removal bit. But, when I run the 2/2/2//SP/SN/Dismember package, my board is pretty stacked with Rough//Tumble and Sulfur Elemental that I can try and make our already bad MU better with them. I think I'm probably locked into the aforementioned 2/2/2 for this Sunday at the Classic; just need SB tinkering.


Please don't play Seal of Fire. If you want to run more burn that pumps Goyf, play Tarfire. At least Tarfire is an instant and it flips Delver.

And, yeah, I would not personally ever do this—and I doubt I'd play Tarfire either. Both are a bit too cute for this old timer :wink:

[keys]

And, yeah, I would not personally ever do this—and I doubt I'd play Tarfire either. Both are a bit too cute for this old timer :wink:

I think Tarfire is probably just as good as Forked Bolt at this point. Part of the reason for that is that Goyfs aren't as popular anymore, meaning there are greater returns from committing to pumping him as its less often symmetrical. Also as many have said, DRS is just the biggest problem for this deck, and being able to kill it turn 1 for R at instant speed is exactly what we want. So many times you are holding up a fetch for Stifle or any other counter, and the instant speed is relevant. Also there are just so many X/2s in the format besides DRS-- these days shock kills almost as much as bolt.

What are the most popular X/3s in the format?

Eldrazi Displacer
Serra Avenger
Painter's Servant
Hanweir Garrison
Lodestone Golem

Sure they're annoying but not all that common

[Atreyu]

Recently I've been playing with

2 x Snare
1 x Pierce
1 x Dismember
2 x Tarfire

and I've felt pretty confortable with it. I like the 6 instant removal + Dismember solution by now.

I tried the 2 x Probes, but it looked like I didn't have them when I really needed.

As sideboard I'm trying a versatile side full of 1of and it looks nice to me at the moment:

1 x Submerge
2 x Pyroblast
1 x Sulfur Elemental
2 x Rough // Tumble
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Ancient Grudge
1 x Krosan Grip
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Null Rod
1 x Sylvan Library
1 x Price of Progress

[Contract Killer]

Unfortunately, this deck doesnt have crazy Probe synergies, like with Cabal or Young Peezy, but i do think the information is relevant for a Stifle deck and i cant count the amount of times i've been happy with it in my yard for Goose. There is nothing worse than having a 1/1 Goose for what feels like forever against Miracles. A turn 1 fetch into Goose followed up by a turn 2 Ponder that shows you a Probe and another good card is not Magical Christmas land, but the norm. You stack it to where you can cast the Probe and then draw the card you actually want, of course, now have information and a decent graveyard.

I've liked the 2 Probes a lot and i dont think ill change it for a while. I actually have not been impressed with Dismember when i ran it main. I dont think my win rate has changed against Eldrazi without Dismember main, and in fact, i feel like i'm doing very well against that deck lately with just huge Goyfs and Delvers. It really comes down to if they get a Canvern or not, IMO.

Angler is super annoying, but is only a 2 of in a deck you might run into 2 times out of ten, even online where its popular. Its a Delver mirror, that 4 damage is huge, especially if it just gets countered anyways. I wish there was a better way to deal with Angler, but there simply isnt, so i'm going to just keep trying to beat it on the stack, or hope they dont draw their 2 of. I keep a few Forces in post board against Grixis, because we are the aggressive deck here. Besides, a lot of time you just have 2 Goose out and Angler cant attack into that anyways. Lets be honest, we dont lose this matchup to Angler, its DRS. Always DRS.

My flex spots lately have been 2 Probes, 2 Snares, 1 Pierce, 1 Tarfire. I cut the second Tarfire i've been posting about recently for a Pierce, it feels fine. Goyfs are usually always big vs Eldrazi since its likely you counter an artifact. Only 5 ways to kill DRS kind of scares me, though. DRS just gives me nightmares, card is insane against us.


EDIT:: I just read Jonathan's blog post that Contract Killer linked and i respectfully disagree with the direction he takes the deck a lot of time. To me, the Delver mirror DOES feel like whoever sticks a Delver wins, i would not board them out. The double Delver draw is often times unbeatable. In addition, he inadvertently plays the control role vs Grixis Delver which i dont agree with at all.

The Seal of Fire in the side sounds pretty sweet, though, i could probably find room for that and would like another Goyf grower/DRS killer, especially one that cant be exiled by another DRS.

It looks like he is still on Winter Orb main with like 2 more in the side, where as i've removed Winter Orb entirely. It always felt clunky to me, even though in theory it should be good. I only ever liked it when my opponent would tap out, i would Daze the spell, then slam Orb, which didnt come up enough for my liking.

This is a pretty hyper aggressive tempo deck, RUG control with Delvers doesnt feel like what i want to be doing.
Yeah I've tried it as well once and my results were ok I guess. I didn't really give it a shot after that because again it feels clunky. Our own opinions of the list aside I think the 24th finish with it does merit more testing than people do with it.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Just played the Legacy Challenge, still on the same 75 from my sideboarding guide (https://deckstats.net/decks/65431/538742-canadian-threshold-24-07-2016/en).

2-0 Miracles
I had Orb both games.

1-2 Storm
I had wrong reads on my opponent G1&3.

2-1 OmniTell
Lost G1 because I did nothing.
G2 my opponent had T1 Defense Grid but I had Orb.
G3 my opponent resolved Show and Tell for Omniscience because of Boseiju, but I countered every spell after.

2-0 4C Delver
I just did Canadian things. Interestingly, G1 Winter Orb was a spell my opponent had to counter.

2-1 Death & Taxes
G1 I made some stupid mistake and lost.
G2 I had True-Name to trump my opponent's deck.
G3 my opponent had four Vials, but I had double Grudge.

2-1 Miracles
Lost G1 because I didn't really do much.
G2&3 were won on the back of early Winter Orbs into late untouchable creatures.

1-2 Death & Taxes
Won G1 doing Canadian things.
Lost G2&3 doing other Canadian things, namely drawing one land per game.

--> 5-2 for ninth place on breakers. The guy I beat R6 got 8th.


List is still great, but still not sure about Grafdigger's Cage. Can be pretty much anything.

[LewisCBR]

Just played the Legacy Challenge, still on the same 75 from my sideboarding guide (https://deckstats.net/decks/65431/538742-canadian-threshold-24-07-2016/en).


Tough luck getting 9th place, your list continues to impress! I was railing FriendRudy's stream for most of the tournament, who lost in the top 8. I didnt want to play in the Challenge because i wanted to watch baseball (Nationals/Dodgers game), but then that game ended up getting rained out. Most savage beat i've taken in a while. :P

[LewisCBR]

Spiked another 5-0 in a League about an hour ago with this very traditional list: https://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver

I decided to go back and try no Probes, adding another Pierce and a Dismember, in the main. I've only had time to do 3 Leagues in the last couple weeks and have gone 4-1, 3-2, and now 5-0 with this list, respectively, so suffice it to say its been running hot. While i liked the Probe list, maybe it doesnt really matter all that much what the 6 flex spots are, as long as you are running some kind of extra removal and countermagic.

I beat Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Grixis Delver, Elves, and Mono Blue Omnitell in the last League, which are all pretty decent matchups for RUG. Although, the Sneak and Omnitell matches can be dicey. I feel like i always need a quick threat and double Force backup to even have a chance. Twice, the Omnitell guy fought through the counters and resolved a Show and Tell for Omniscience, but didnt have Emrakul or Wish to finish me off.

I really like this configuration vs Grixis Delver, as long as you can keep DRS off the table. A hand of double Wasteland and Stifle looks terrible when they suddenly plop down a turn 1 DRS if you cant answer it. Luckily, i was able to. Dismember did come in clutch to kill an Angler, which is what it is there to do, so maybe i need to change my opinion on the card. Previously, i never really liked it because 4 damage is pretty huge in the Delver mirror. However, i guess its rare for the matchup to come down to a race, usually one person or the other has solid control of the game.

Elves feels very easy with this 75. Post board, i have 9 pieces of removal, with 2 of those being a one sided Wrath. This match feels great to be able to fire off kill spells and countermagic knowing they will have zero response to anything you do. I like running 2 Roughs in the side almost exclusively for jank tribal decks like this. Elves, Merfolk (below), Goblines, Slivers, and even D&T feel extremely manageable when you have 2 sweepers and are frequently huge blowouts. I basically dont ever want to lose to these decks.

I didnt even think Merfolk, as a deck, still existed in Legacy, it had been so long since i've seen it. He was able to Chalice me and resolve a True Name in game 1, but games 2 and 3 i jumped all over him when he stumbled on mana a bit. Wasteland is still a thing when they keep a hand of one Island, Mutavaults, and Caverns.

I was getting discouraged with this deck recently and even jammed some matches in the 2 man queue online with Grixis and 4 Color Delver lists to see if i wanted to finally make the full switch out of RUG. While those decks are obviously powerful and put up consistent results, i dont like the midrangey playstyle all that much and i find myself back on RUG. Its so odd to me how clunky Grixis can play out, yet still win. When running at its best, RUG feels so fluid, like your inside the best part of a song, your cards are the notes and you are the maestro, doing crazy powerful things with 0 and 1 CMC spells. The deck is simply genius and i dont think there is anything else like it in Legacy.

[GoatLust]

Recently bought into legacy and decided to make RUG Delver. Really enjoy it so far. I essentially copied LewisCBR's, so thanks man, much appreciated. I've done 2 leagues with it. Finishing 3-2 and 4-1. I lost to Dredge (Bridge from Below), SnT, and Shardless Sultai. Any RUG Delver vets have pointers on these match-ups?

Thanks!

[kombatkiwi]

Mini tournament report - GP Kuala Lumpur Sunday Side Event

My intention was to try Jonathan Alexander’s exact list, but the vendors didn’t have any Submerge available. My friend who played in a legacy event on the Friday said that Reanimator was very popular so I added an additional Surgical Extraction instead.

Maindeck
54 RUG Delver Core
-2 Tarmogoyf
-1 Tropical Island (Budget Constraints)
1 Breeding Pool (I considered making this a Botanical Sanctum but I think not casting Daze is worse than the life loss, it turned out to be the correct decision at least for this event)
1 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Winter Orb
2 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce

Side
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
1 Seal of Fire
1 Spell Pierce
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Submerge
1 Tarmogoyf

I considered playing Scavenging Ooze over the SB Tarmogoyf but decided not to after my friend pointed out that playing Seal of Fire for only 2 Tarmogoyf in the 75 looks pretty awful.

Matches
4-Colour Deathrite/Delver/Strix/Copter 2-1
Reanimator 1-2
Mono-R Stompy/Sneak Attack 2-0
Elves 2-1
Eldrazi ID (Played for fun, I win the match if I don’t punt but I do so I lose)

Notes on card choices
2 Tarmogoyf, 3 Snare, 1 Spell Pierce,1 Counterspell, 2 Dismember seems like a great configuration to me at this point in time. I have only moved to Dismember relatively recently but I think you need at least 6 maindeck spells that act as removal, and as long as Angler and Eldrazi are a thing then the ability to -5 is so much more important than the 3 face damage from a Chain Lightning or whatever.

Main deck winter orb I am not sure about. It did win me game 1 against the Eldrazi player by keeping him off of Reality Smasher for 1 critical turn but in the postboard game where I drew it he had Eye and 2-mana lands so it didn’t do anything. I also boarded it out in every other match.

It might just be the case that in some metagames (MODO Included?) the amount of Miracles is high enough that you can justify playing 1 Orb main and 2 side. Miracles is so uncommon in my IRL tournaments, and in the other matchups where you are ‘supposed’ to bring Orb in it seems so underwhelming (DNT, Eldrazi, not sure about lands). I think the maindeck Orb could be a different card (I want to say Probe but not sure about the life loss with 2 Dismembers) and one or both of the ones in the board could easily be a Pithing Needle or Null Rod or Sulfuric Vortex depending on whether you think you need more coverage against Lands, Miracles, DNT, Sneak Attack, etc.

I have had the same idea about using Seal of Fire myself in the past but hadn’t actually tried it in an event before (Had to buy a foil Dissension one from the vendor lol). As a removal spell it was perfectly acceptable (ie. the fact that I could not cast it as an instant and it only deals 2 never was a drawback, but the fact that it could pump Goyf by being an enchantment never came up either). It almost decided the outcome of one game by being an enchantment on top of my library and not flipping Delver, so in this event it performed worse than Tarfire would have, but I am still convinced by the argument of Seal not being able to be eaten by DRS in the Angler matches. This is also a general reminder that Delver of Secrets does not flip for free all the time and having a card in your 75 be an instant or sorcery is a legitimate, if perhaps marginal benefit.

For posterity (I know this isn’t a real point of discussion at the moment but someone might bring it up again in the future or browse the thread wondering) I didn’t lose any games or have to play any weird lines because of my Breeding Pool but this has happened several times in the past. My round 1 opponent seemed to seriously respect my ‘decision’ to play around all my green sources being extracted but this is just a big meme, if you have 3 Tropicals you should play them.

I’m not too sure about the plan of boarding all your Delvers out against Grixis, but to me the idea seems reasonable. If you bring in 1 Goyf and 2 TNN then your threat density is roughly the same and you have the plan of your Goyf/TNN trumping everything they have while you are blanking 4 cards in their deck that they won’t board out. I agree that RUG is generally the ‘aggro’ deck but if there is a particular SB configuration that might enable the deck to successfully take the control role in a particular matchup I think it shouldn’t be dismissed by the ‘role argument’ alone.

I planned to attend GP Chiba but I missed the registration window. Good luck to all who will be attending.
Please reply if you have any questions or comments :)

[Jesperaj]

Spiked another 5-0 in a League about an hour ago with this very traditional list: https://deckstats.net/decks/56084/451448-rug-delver

I decided to go back and try no Probes, adding another Pierce and a Dismember, in the main. I've only had time to do 3 Leagues in the last couple weeks and have gone 4-1, 3-2, and now 5-0 with this list, respectively, so suffice it to say its been running hot. While i liked the Probe list, maybe it doesnt really matter all that much what the 6 flex spots are, as long as you are running some kind of extra removal and countermagic.

I beat Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Grixis Delver, Elves, and Mono Blue Omnitell in the last League, which are all pretty decent matchups for RUG. Although, the Sneak and Omnitell matches can be dicey. I feel like i always need a quick threat and double Force backup to even have a chance. Twice, the Omnitell guy fought through the counters and resolved a Show and Tell for Omniscience, but didnt have Emrakul or Wish to finish me off.

I really like this configuration vs Grixis Delver, as long as you can keep DRS off the table. A hand of double Wasteland and Stifle looks terrible when they suddenly plop down a turn 1 DRS if you cant answer it. Luckily, i was able to. Dismember did come in clutch to kill an Angler, which is what it is there to do, so maybe i need to change my opinion on the card. Previously, i never really liked it because 4 damage is pretty huge in the Delver mirror. However, i guess its rare for the matchup to come down to a race, usually one person or the other has solid control of the game.

Elves feels very easy with this 75. Post board, i have 9 pieces of removal, with 2 of those being a one sided Wrath. This match feels great to be able to fire off kill spells and countermagic knowing they will have zero response to anything you do. I like running 2 Roughs in the side almost exclusively for jank tribal decks like this. Elves, Merfolk (below), Goblines, Slivers, and even D&T feel extremely manageable when you have 2 sweepers and are frequently huge blowouts. I basically dont ever want to lose to these decks.

I didnt even think Merfolk, as a deck, still existed in Legacy, it had been so long since i've seen it. He was able to Chalice me and resolve a True Name in game 1, but games 2 and 3 i jumped all over him when he stumbled on mana a bit. Wasteland is still a thing when they keep a hand of one Island, Mutavaults, and Caverns.

I was getting discouraged with this deck recently and even jammed some matches in the 2 man queue online with Grixis and 4 Color Delver lists to see if i wanted to finally make the full switch out of RUG. While those decks are obviously powerful and put up consistent results, i dont like the midrangey playstyle all that much and i find myself back on RUG. Its so odd to me how clunky Grixis can play out, yet still win. When running at its best, RUG feels so fluid, like your inside the best part of a song, your cards are the notes and you are the maestro, doing crazy powerful things with 0 and 1 CMC spells. The deck is simply genius and i dont think there is anything else like it in Legacy.

Hey Lewis.. Great to see you keeping the RUG spirit alive👍. I really like your 75 card configration. Can i ask you how your sideboarding is against:

Grixis delver
Miracles
Elves
Eldrazi
Storm

[LewisCBR]

Hey Lewis.. Great to see you keeping the RUG spirit alive👍. I really like your 75 card configration. Can i ask you how your sideboarding is against:

Grixis delver
Miracles
Elves
Eldrazi
Storm

I dont know if any of these are right, as i'm a big fan of shaving as opposed to out right taking out all of one spell a lot of the time, but this is how i do it.

Grixis delver - I like to take the role of aggressor here. Its impossible to answer everything, so you need to answer just enough to get there. Taking out Delvers seems insane to me, i dont know how you can plan to kill every DRS and opposing Delver with your limited removal. I feel like the best defense to Delver, sometimes, is to play your own Delver.

+2 Rough
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Seal of Fire
+1 True Name
+1 Flusterstorm
-3 Force (i like leaving one in as a safety net for when you need to counter that Angler, for example)
-2 Spell Snare (not enough good targets, Rough is supposed to help handle Pyromancer
-1 Daze (because youre bringing in better counter spells)
-1 Goose (feels like the weakest creature here and you are bringing in a TNN)


Miracles - I feel 50/50 against this deck lately, but i've had Miracles players tell me that they feel unfavored vs RUG.

+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosam Grip
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle (this feels redundant and its annoying when you draw both this and Null Rod to stop Top, but thats what Brainstorm is for)
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Sulfuric Vortex (probably your best card)
+1 Sylvan Library (another nombo, like with Rod/Needle, you only want Library or Vortex, the two dont play nice together unless you find a Vortex off Library fast)
+1 True Name
-3 Wasteland (yep)
-1 Dismember
-1 Tarfire
-1 Bolt
-2 Daze (weakest counter spell here)
-1 Tarmgoyf (your weakest creature here, he dies to everything)


Elves - This is basically a combo deck, so i keep in Forces. They cant do too much with a bunch of elves, but when they get Glimpse going into Natural Order, you better watch out. I try to kill everything and poke away with our threats.

+1 Seal of Fire
+2 Rough
+1 Sylvan Library
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare (not too many targets, but its great to hit a Visionary or Zenith for 1, otherwise, pitch to Force)
-1 Daze
-1 Dismember


Eldrazi - Your best bet is to get two Delvers going fast, or a few big Goyfs out, while countering as much as you can. Using Wastelands to hit Cavern. This is one of those matchups where you dont have enough to bring in for all you want to bring out since Pierces and Stifles are pretty bad. Some people like Rough against Eldrazi, but i havent had it work out very well.

+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 True Name
+1 Seal of Fire (for Goyf)
-3 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce


Storm - just like we are the best Delver variant vs Miracles, i think we are the weakest Delver variant vs Storm. They can win through counter spells pretty easily and we dont have hand disruption, so this matchup is always tough. Choosing when to counter cantrips can be crucial.

+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Null Rod
+2 Pyroblast (be very liberal and hit an early cantrip whenever you are able)
+2 Surgical
+1 Library
-1 Dismeber
-1 Tarfire
-2 Bolt
-2 Goose (he is your worst threat, for sure)
-1 Wasteland

[Dio]

This is my current deck:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-08-16-rug-delver/

What should I cut for Grip of Phyresis?

[Jonathan Alexander]

To those of you who have toyed around with my list: I'm working on a matchup guide for Canadian vs. Miracles, do you have screenshots of any interesting scenarios I should cover? I'm looking mostly for cantrip decisions and countermagic sequencing here.

[comix84]

Hey guys, Canadian Player since 2013 here.. need some help regarding the DnT matchup.. it has always been my nemesi but now with also the new Thalia and the recruiter it seems even worse to me... I am pretty sure I am approaching the match in the wrong way so pretty open to any suggestion.
Usually playing a quite standard list, with the 6 slot currently: 2 Dismember, 2 pierce and 2 snare.
I change the side quite often based on what I expect in my local meta but I do usually have at least a mass removal (rough // tumble, sometimes x 2 or 1 plus another burn spell), couple of graveyard hate, classic 3/4 slot for combo, 1 null rod, 1 sulfuric vortex, 1/2 winter orb, 1 nemesis and 1 Sulfur elemental

How do you generally play against it? I mean, delver used to be the best here (ok TNN too) but now they can ever recruiter for the flickerwisp and we still only have 4 stifle! Really open to any advice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Contract Killer]

Hey guys, Canadian Player since 2013 here.. need some help regarding the DnT matchup.. it has always been my nemesi but now with also the new Thalia and the recruiter it seems even worse to me... I am pretty sure I am approaching the match in the wrong way so pretty open to any suggestion.
Usually playing a quite standard list, with the 6 slot currently: 2 Dismember, 2 pierce and 2 snare.
I change the side quite often based on what I expect in my local meta but I do usually have at least a mass removal (rough // tumble, sometimes x 2 or 1 plus another burn spell), couple of graveyard hate, classic 3/4 slot for combo, 1 null rod, 1 sulfuric vortex, 1/2 winter orb, 1 nemesis and 1 Sulfur elemental

How do you generally play against it? I mean, delver used to be the best here (ok TNN too) but now they can ever recruiter for the flickerwisp and we still only have 4 stifle! Really open to any advice!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ceck out Jonathan Alexander's list and sideboard section on his blog the weekly wars. With how many stupid 3 drops they have I think it's really good.

[Contract Killer]

To those of you who have toyed around with my list: I'm working on a matchup guide for Canadian vs. Miracles, do you have screenshots of any interesting scenarios I should cover? I'm looking mostly for cantrip decisions and countermagic sequencing here.
The most common one I have come up is turn 2 orb + daze/force or turn 2 pass holding up pierce/pyro/snare/counterspell then turn 3 orb after hitting a counterbalance or something. This is also subject to change if they have top out orb is probably worth it. Part of this is because in my experience the ONLY ways you can actually lose postboard on this plan are mentor. This means the amount of counterspells you have that hit him (force/daze/counterspell) are of limited supply and you should try to manage them as best as you can in terms of what they can counter.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Canadian Threshold vs. Miracles Matchup Guide (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/11/21/canadian-threshold-vs-miracles-matchup-guide/)

Should be self-explanatory. Focusing on the #winnerorb list.


The most common one I have come up is turn 2 orb + daze/force or turn 2 pass holding up pierce/pyro/snare/counterspell then turn 3 orb after hitting a counterbalance or something. This is also subject to change if they have top out orb is probably worth it. Part of this is because in my experience the ONLY ways you can actually lose postboard on this plan are mentor. This means the amount of counterspells you have that hit him (force/daze/counterspell) are of limited supply and you should try to manage them as best as you can in terms of what they can counter.

Definitely holding up counters there unless opponent has mana tapped. I agree on the Mentor thing, it's the only card you really lose to because everything else just never resolves.

[Homason]

Iam toying around with your list for a few weeks. Played a Few Leagues (5:0, 4:1 loss vs TA, 4:1 loss vs Lands) with the list and adjusted it a little bit because of the rise of DnT (27:3 in the last 2 weeks online; lost to TA, Lands and MUD.)
Your discribed way of fighting Miracles is very effective and I tend to play it the same way. I feel the Match-up is very positive and I enjoy to play it.

Since the rise of popolarity of DnT I changed a few slots:

MD:
-1 Dismember
-1 Orb
+Fire/ice
+Forked Bolt

SB:

-1 Ancient Grudge
+ EE
- Submerge
+ Rough

Iam not even sure if these changes are correct, but i don`t like the Orb in the most popolar Match-ups right now (Grixis, Elves, Eldrazi, infect) while it is bomb vs Miracles (which is always dtb).
I like the idea to shave the Grave hate and bring in a Sulfur Elemantal, so i`ll give it a try.

Best Regards
Homason

[Jonathan Alexander]

Well, I can't say I agree with your changes ;-)

I wouldn't cut the maindeck Orb, no matter how bad it sometimes is. It just randomly wins a lot of games; sometimes even in Delver mirrors. Dismember is too important against Grixis, Eldrazi and Shardless.

Do you care to explain why you want to replace Grudge with Explosives? I don't see why you would want to do that, but I'm definitely not ruling out the possibility that I'm missing something, given that I have barely played with Explosives in this deck.

I think the Submerge slots are at least debatable depending on the metagame you're expecting to face. Same is true for Rough // Tumble, it can certainly be a valid inclusion.

[cheerios]

@Jona

Are you planning to do another Canadian VS X article? Appreciate the articles.

Cheers

[Homason]

Do you care to explain why you want to replace Grudge with Explosives? I don't see why you would want to do that, but I'm definitely not ruling out the possibility that I'm missing something, given that I have barely played with Explosives in this deck.

Hey again,

I replaced 1 Ancient Grudge with an Explosives, because I ended up having a useless card in hand very often. The benefits of Explosives are:

- deals with chalice, the same way
- also kills other Permanents (Endless one, MotR,...)
- It is one more way to grow our Goyfs vs Grixis and Eldrazi
- It is some kind of sweeper



I think the Submerge slots are at least debatable depending on the metagame you're expecting to face. Same is true for Rough // Tumble, it can certainly be a valid inclusion.


I feel the same way. I currently run 1 Submerge and 1 Rough because of more DnT and less Bug Decks.

As you mentioned, Orb is a very powerful tool in many different Match-ups. What do you think about 3 Orbs in the Sb and 7 Removal Main configuration?

I get your point to the second Dismember. Fire//Ice was a try, which was obvious very helpful against DnT. And it is not of table yet, because I lost some Delver-Mirrors because I couldnt cast my removal :-(

[Jonathan Alexander]

@Jona

Are you planning to do another Canadian VS X article? Appreciate the articles.

Cheers

Thanks for your feedback! I might do something similar again, but most matchups are way more complex than Canadian vs. Miracles. If I feel I have enough info to do something like this again, I will.


Hey again,

I replaced 1 Ancient Grudge with an Explosives, because I ended up having a useless card in hand very often. The benefits of Explosives are:

- deals with chalice, the same way
- also kills other Permanents (Endless one, MotR,...)
- It is one more way to grow our Goyfs vs Grixis and Eldrazi
- It is some kind of sweeper

Not really convinced, but I'm gonna give it a try anyway. Might take a while though, I barely get to play Canadian.


As you mentioned, Orb is a very powerful tool in many different Match-ups. What do you think about 3 Orbs in the Sb and 7 Removal Main configuration?

I strongly dislike 7 removal the same way I dislike 11+ creatures. You just end up wth useless cards too often in combo and control (Miracles) matchups.

Originally, I had Slyvan Library on that slot because it is an extra threat that doesn't give you diminishing returns from drawing too many creatures and it helps you find extra removal in creature matchups. It was Snapcaster Mage for a bit in late 2012 when everyone was on some form of Deathrite Shaman deck.

[Raticate_Tail]

Just noticed this puppy played to the top 4 of a French tournament:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14290&d=285279&f=LE

No stifles with a heavy removal package split between dismember and forked bolt. A whole two copies of counterspell and a big tweak in the threatbase. He plays a green sun's zenith package of two zeniths, a goyf and a scavenging ooze in addition to his 4 delvers and 4 mongeese. Having access to 6 copies of mongoose seems at odds with having no stifles to disrupt main, although the added removal spells likely helps. It seems like he also has a similar philosophy to JonLX where goyf is clearly the worst creature.

His sideboard is all one-ofs, including a copy of ceremonious rejection, (which seems reasonable) a copy of roast (which seems like hot garbage) and a copy of vapor snag (which seems suboptimal).

Thoughts on this spicy meatball?

[MTB]

First of all- I tried all these cards and they can all be fine in a specific meta.

Roast- I tried it and its fine against Eldrazi but beeing a sorcery is a huge drawback. It means you will take five from the smasher before you can kill it. Sadly a third dismember is too much lifeloss but if you want to improve your Eldrazi matchup the first step would be to increase the goyf count.

Green suns zenith - Also something I tried but not really liked it. It improves miracle (more goose, harder to hit with balance) and Eldrazi (more goyfs) for sure but in every other matchup its horrible to tap 3 mana at sorcery speed to get a goyf that can be spell pierced.

Ooze - Although a little bit slow its really good in some matchups as it can easily grow bigger than goyf or reality smasher. If you play zenith you should play one somewhere in your 75.

Counterspell - A powerful tool no doubts here but holding up 2 mana while casting zenith seems rough also more than one copy seems clunky especially against decks like elves or taxes.

What I not tried
Vapor snag - A temporary removal most of the time (except angler, tokens or reanimated stuff) can help you to bring in the Last points of damage but it requires a Board presence and as your creatures are mainly 3/x its like Bolt+1 damage.

Ceremonious rejection- Only usefull against Eldrazi and MUD which both play cavern. Seems pretty narrow to me. Again more goyfs would help here.

Kind regards,

M

[Jonathan Alexander]

Roast- I tried it and its fine against Eldrazi but beeing a sorcery is a huge drawback. It means you will take five from the smasher before you can kill it. Sadly a third dismember is too much lifeloss but if you want to improve your Eldrazi matchup the first step would be to increase the goyf count.

Dismember means you take four from a Smasher before you kill it. Not really a world of difference. I think Sorcery speed vs. Thought-Knot is a better argument. That being said, I'm toying around with Roast in UR right now and it's alright. Probably still worse than the second Dismember in Canadian though. Also agree on the Goyf thing, that's a better way to address Eldrazi.

[MTB]

Thats also true and I dont think 2 mana sorcery speed removal helps the game plan as you most probably tapp out or at least tapp low for it.

Regarding UR harvest pyre could be a possibility sadly its so bad with goose.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Harvest Pyre might actually work. I played Set Adrift before and Delve vs. Threshold was never an issue.

[bl4ckwell]

I read this entire thread, and thank everyone who contributed. This my first post on this site. I am a huge fan of Legacy and particularly this deck. This my current deck list:


Main (60)

Creatures (12)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
4x tarmogoyf

Spells (30)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
4x spell pierce
4x lightning bolt
2x fire-ice

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
2x scalding tarn
2x polluted delta
2x misty rainforest
2x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)

2x submerge
2x pyroblast
2x grafdiggers cage
2x rough/tumble
2x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
1x surgical extraction
1x engineered explosives
1x ancient grudge
1x sylvan library

I have limited exposure to Legacy games, as my LGS does not have a big legacy base, I mainly play against reanimator, BUG Delver and occasional DnT. (If you guys know a good place to play near NYC/staten island/NJ let me know :tongue:)

Up until recently, I was playing 3 ponders and maindecking a sylvan library, my the life loss was too much against aggro decks.

My main question is do you think dropping to 10 creatures to add extra removals, counterspells, or possibly git probes is a good idea? I see a lot of lists that run 2x Goyfs but seeing as creatures are out main win condition, im worried 10 may be a little light.

Thank you in advance for your time.

[Contract Killer]

I read this entire thread, and thank everyone who contributed. This my first post on this site. I am a huge fan of Legacy and particularly this deck. This my current deck list:


Main (60)

Creatures (12)

4x delver
4x nimble mongoose
4x tarmogoyf

Spells (30)

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x force of will
4x daze
4x stifle
4x spell pierce
4x lightning bolt
2x fire-ice

Land (18)

3x volcanic island
3x tropical island
4x wasteland
2x scalding tarn
2x polluted delta
2x misty rainforest
2x flooded strand

Sideboard (15)

2x submerge
2x pyroblast
2x grafdiggers cage
2x rough/tumble
2x spell snare
1x flusterstorm
1x surgical extraction
1x engineered explosives
1x ancient grudge
1x sylvan library

I have limited exposure to Legacy games, as my LGS does not have a big legacy base, I mainly play against reanimator, BUG Delver and occasional DnT. (If you guys know a good place to play near NYC/staten island/NJ let me know :tongue:)

Up until recently, I was playing 3 ponders and maindecking a sylvan library, my the life loss was too much against aggro decks.

My main question is do you think dropping to 10 creatures to add extra removals, counterspells, or possibly git probes is a good idea? I see a lot of lists that run 2x Goyfs but seeing as creatures are out main win condition, im worried 10 may be a little light.

Thank you in advance for your time.

For starters I would not run 4 pierce without any dismembers. You need to have some outs to resolved tarmogoyfs/ zombie fishes the prior of which snare can hit along with a slew of other high priority targets. Snare also has longer staying power which is important when some match ups grind and you need a hard counter.

Never deviate from the 8 main cantrips. They're the bread and butter of your deck. Sylvan library isn't necessarily bad just slow and doesn't impact the board immediately which isn't good enough anymore. It kind of acts as another threat by being able to find more, but it still doesn't block or attack the turn after it enters.

I think git probe is fine as training wheels. I don't mean that to sound demeaning by any means. My point is it gives you invaluable information on how to play certain hands or what to look for. Even experienced players would win some more percentages if they had perfect info at the drop of a hat. It also allows you to see what's coming and get an idea of what to think critically about. Ie: oh miracles has counterbalance + force back up which means I can ponder into a threat but not play it this turn because I need daze + stifle live to beat their counterbalance.

Cutting threats for added counters/removal is somewhat dangerous. What happens is you upset a delicate balance of interactive cards. Some are good vs combo while others are dead and vice versa with other decks. Rules of thumb I would consider when deviating from the stock main 54:

Don't go over 6 main removal unless you know at your weekly (or whatever tournament) you will face lots of dnt/delver

If you want you to cut main threats have some Goyfs, tnns, grim or whatever in the board to make up in the match ups you want them (delver mirrors mainly).

If you go down to 10 threats be sure to evaluate bolt even more as a reach spell than removal and to conserve it. This goes along with your evaluating it alongside adismember you may have in hand. Things like daze jitte vs eldrazi to make them tap tomb can make your bolt cut an extra turn it two off your clock.

[Dio]

What do you guys think about the deck that made top 32 at GP Louisville? I'm wondering if taking out two goyfs for TNN is actually good or if it was done for budget reasons.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542344#paper

[haxorz]

What do you guys think about the deck that made top 32 at GP Louisville? I'm wondering if taking out two goyfs for TNN is actually good or if it was done for budget reasons.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542344#paper

it's a variant of RUG delver designed to be favored vs miracles. see https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/2016-canadian-threshold-primer/

it's very strong and cleverly designed. i suggest you playtest it :)

[bl4ckwell]

For starters I would not run 4 pierce without any dismembers. You need to have some outs to resolved tarmogoyfs/ zombie fishes the prior of which snare can hit along with a slew of other high priority targets. Snare also has longer staying power which is important when some match ups grind and you need a hard counter.

Never deviate from the 8 main cantrips. They're the bread and butter of your deck. Sylvan library isn't necessarily bad just slow and doesn't impact the board immediately which isn't good enough anymore. It kind of acts as another threat by being able to find more, but it still doesn't block or attack the turn after it enters.

I think git probe is fine as training wheels. I don't mean that to sound demeaning by any means. My point is it gives you invaluable information on how to play certain hands or what to look for. Even experienced players would win some more percentages if they had perfect info at the drop of a hat. It also allows you to see what's coming and get an idea of what to think critically about. Ie: oh miracles has counterbalance + force back up which means I can ponder into a threat but not play it this turn because I need daze + stifle live to beat their counterbalance.

Cutting threats for added counters/removal is somewhat dangerous. What happens is you upset a delicate balance of interactive cards. Some are good vs combo while others are dead and vice versa with other decks. Rules of thumb I would consider when deviating from the stock main 54:

Don't go over 6 main removal unless you know at your weekly (or whatever tournament) you will face lots of dnt/delver

If you want you to cut main threats have some Goyfs, tnns, grim or whatever in the board to make up in the match ups you want them (delver mirrors mainly).

If you go down to 10 threats be sure to evaluate bolt even more as a reach spell than removal and to conserve it. This goes along with your evaluating it alongside adismember you may have in hand. Things like daze jitte vs eldrazi to make them tap tomb can make your bolt cut an extra turn it two off your clock.


I am going to stick with my 12 threats, I agree. I was switching back and forth between 2 extra spell pierce vs git probes. I think I will run 2 git probes.

[Contract Killer]

What do you guys think about the deck that made top 32 at GP Louisville? I'm wondering if taking out two goyfs for TNN is actually good or if it was done for budget reasons.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/542344#paper
I piloted close to the same list at that event. He's a friend of mine and created the list(MD grim, tnn, etc). It's really good. Grim and tnn were all stars winning me a set vs eldrazi and grixis. Getting paired against 4c loam (r3) and losing the die roll got me though since I had to daze a chalice otd and got wasted out. Then round 5 I got paired against big red again last the die roll and got combo-ed out.

[LewisCBR]

Tough beats, you like the list, though? I suppose its match-up dependent?

I'm trying out 2 TNNs in Grixis and like it a lot, TNN is very well positioned right now, i feel like i win 90% of the games he sticks. In RUG, though, was the mana issue ever awkward?

[koten]

What do you guys think of this 5-0 MTGO league list from Ordal?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/545296#online

Can Thought Scour actually support 4x Goose and 4x Hooting in the same list? Very interesting...

[ORDAL]

What do you guys think of this 5-0 MTGO league list from Ordal?

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/545296#online

Can Thought Scour actually support 4x Goose and 4x Hooting in the same list? Very interesting...

Yes i think 😃, that was an experiment anti-decay-fatal push deck. First list i builded make 5-0....there is a lot of work but agree with you..... is interesting

[Contract Killer]

Tough beats, you like the list, though? I suppose its match-up dependent?

I'm trying out 2 TNNs in Grixis and like it a lot, TNN is very well positioned right now, i feel like i win 90% of the games he sticks. In RUG, though, was the mana issue ever awkward?

The list was great. Mine had a snare over third pierce and a second submerge over needle in the board. Honestly with orb needle just didn't seem necessary, but knowing Leovold would be big I thought the second submerge would be good. My match ups were
R1,2 byes
R3 aggro loam lose
R4 grixis delver win
R5 big red (blast canon whatever you want to call it) lose
R6 eldrazi win
R7 ur delver win
R8 ur delver lose
R9 dnt lose

http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/266569

I don't think I could have done anything different in my losses vs aggro loam and big red. People will probably call me out on this and rightfully so. Just losing the die roll in either of those is back breaking. On top of that both games having to daze otd (T2 chalice, T2 trinisphere daze+pierce ssg for daze).

The chalice I could have force pitched tnn then played goyf the next turn. I thought about it but felt like getting tnn out and hoping to dodge waste was more relevant. Neither is a good line, but goyf gets dealt with too easily (decay, maze, kotr, Liliana etc). Either way I'm dead to loam lock I just have better odds if he doesn't have it with tnn than I do with goyf I think.

The big red match up is just bad otd. You can pick up game 2 easy, but being otd is so difficult. They can play around daze easily enough and go under everything except force.

Honestly I think ur delver is the hardest delver match up because you need pyroblast to deal with their storm chaser. Swiftspear easily eats goose and can eat goyf. They're a lot faster than us and I think that makes it more difficult than other drawn out attrition based delver matchups.

The dnt match up was interesting. I lost the first game then the second one I may have made a play mistake. I dazed a thalia (hard cast) over end step dismember it. The reasoning behind this is simple: cavern of souls. I've been punished by that card more than once trying to make better use of mana the next turn then daze when I have a threat out. Anyways immediately after that I top decked winter orb which made me feel stupid. Then the following turn he played another thalia kind of trapping me under my orb.

Orb definitely did what it was supposed to in that game. Despite getting trapped under it the line is good. Playing it there stops sfm or at least buys you time and requires them to have 2x land + sfm. It also sets back any three drop plan by 2 turns again if they have lands. Just drawing it after playing daze seemed really bad. Maybe I should have evaluated daze differently there because of orb in the board. I still don't think you can win that if daze rots in hand after that turn because of cavern.

Notes about some choice cards:
Grim lavamancer won me so many games. He was great vs grixis, eldrazi and ur delver. Never drew him against dnt unfortunately. He's really good right now. It gives you repeatable removal in delver mirrors which is all you want and let's you go over eldrazi threats. Him, delver and tnn work well together to make the eldrazi match up positive I think by letting you go over rather than have goose/ goyf getting stuck.

Tnn is really good as well. Mana never really was a problem except for getting wasted out by 4c loam. Without a snare/ pierce that game the outcome is the same with a goyf. It won me my MD game vs eldrazi which was sweet. I had delver into double tnn to just alpha strike before he got me.

Winter orb was great as always. After a lot of testing Patrick came to the conclusion it's just not good main. I pretty much agree with that. It's too volatile of a card that can be dead in match ups where literally any other card might let you win md (storm, delver, dnt this match up changes post board though). That aside it ate a thought knot seer which let me keep my dismember so that was good I guess. Bought me a lot of time against dnt (still lost to a flicker which ironically I could have dazed if I had dismembered earlier and I never saw a cavern). Even in Chiba the card was straight gas every time I drew it.

The list is extremely good. Special thanks to Patrick Tierney for making such a good list. I think right now I'm just upset with it because at least 2 of my sets felt die roll dependent more so than ever. Either way keep on keeping on with Canadian Threshold.

Cheers

[Jonathan Alexander]

So I got wrecked in the Legacy Challenge on Saturday (except that I didn't actually get wrecked). I played the same list as October (https://deckstats.net/decks/65431/538742-canadian-threshold-24-07-2016), with Flusterstorm over Cage in the sideboard.

My matches:

2-0 Shardless
Just two games of playing patiently, wrecking my opponents mana and going to town with Mongoose.

2-0 Grixis Delver
My opponent mulled to five on the play G1, didn't have a land drop, forced my T1 Delver, I had Daze or Force, they conceeded. G2 I did Delver mirror things.

1-2 Team America
I lost G1 to something, won a G2 from very far behind, then lost a close G3.

1-2 Storm
I won G1 thanks to Orb, Stifle & Waste. G2 was somewhat interesting. My opponent took at least one mulligan, fetched Island T1, cast Ponder and shuffled. I put them on a slow hand due to that, so I went with T1 Delver over Ponder, having only Daze backup. My opponent then made 12 Goblins T2. G3 I had Daze, Force, Snare, my opponent killed me T3 with Therapy, Tutor, Past in Flames and a million mana.

1-2 Aluren
G1 I was very low on business; in my top 20 cards I had two Delvers and one Brainstorm, no other creatures nor cantrips. My opponent had double Decay and killed me at some point. G2 I went Canadian Threshold on them. G3 I don't think I did anything.

1-2 4C Delver
We split the first two games, then I messed up G3 after my opponent had triple Daze. They were on ten life with Deathrite and Strix, I was on four with Bolt in hand and Mongoose plus True-Name on the board. For some reason I didn't attack with Mongoose here and Strix killed me with my opponent on one.


Overall, I thought I played really well, probably the best since Prague. The list was alright, but maybe it needs some changing. I like most of what it does against the various Deathrite Force decks, although I'm not 100% sold on all my boarding plans, especially Team Amreica might need some adjustments. I was considering running a Ghost Quarter in the sideboard for the Delver mirrors, so there's something to try out. Maybe the sideboard Tarmogoyf can become Hooting Mandrils or something with Eldrazi on the decline, although I'm not sure how much I like that against Grixis.
Interestingly, even though I went 2-3 in matches against the Sultai decks, I was up a game with a 7-6 record.

I still think the deck is well positioned, but not facing Miracles isn't cool. Not like I have many cards specifically for the matchup (really only the third Orb), but it is a very good one that I like playing. Miracles hasn't really reacted to the current metagame though, so until they do, it might be better to play UR Delver (which is stupid because I played UR last month and Canadian would've been way better).

[koten]

Yes i think 😃, that was an experiment anti-decay-fatal push deck. First list i builded make 5-0....there is a lot of work but agree with you..... is interesting

What are your thoughts on cutting the Dazes from the list?

[Contract Killer]

What are your thoughts on cutting the Dazes from the list?
Cutting daze... you're trolling right? I don't think anyone can take this comment seriously.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I wrote a little something about a few situations of playing Canadian vs. various Deathrite Shaman decks: #theweeklywars #16 — Canadian Threshold vs. Deathrite Shaman (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/01/20/theweeklywars-16-canadian-threshold-vs-deathrite-shaman/)

Let me know if you'd like to see more content of this type. I would not mind doing this for a couple more matchups.

[rlesko]

Cutting daze... you're trolling right? I don't think anyone can take this comment seriously.

you should check the list in question: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/545296#online

it already doesn't have daze. he is asking how it worked out

[rlesko]

I wrote a little something about a few situations of playing Canadian vs. various Deathrite Shaman decks: #theweeklywars #16 — Canadian Threshold vs. Deathrite Shaman (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/01/20/theweeklywars-16-canadian-threshold-vs-deathrite-shaman/)

Let me know if you'd like to see more content of this type. I would not mind doing this for a couple more matchups.

Really enjoyed this article. I haven't played canadian in over a year now since I didn't like the positioning of the deck, but perhaps I was wrong about that- you seem very confident it is still well positioned.

[Contract Killer]

you should check the list in question: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/545296#online

it already doesn't have daze. he is asking how it worked out

The list is interesting but seems highly irrelevant to the thread.

[ORDAL]

Cutting daze... you're trolling right? I don't think anyone can take this comment seriously.

My decklist wasnt tempo deck....

[mextremartini]

I wrote a little something about a few situations of playing Canadian vs. various Deathrite Shaman decks: #theweeklywars #16 — Canadian Threshold vs. Deathrite Shaman (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/01/20/theweeklywars-16-canadian-threshold-vs-deathrite-shaman/)

Let me know if you'd like to see more content of this type. I would not mind doing this for a couple more matchups.

This is beautifully written . Keep it up mate !

[cartothemax]

Hello!

After taking a year and a half off from any competitive play due to life getting in the way of Magic. I played at my local FNM legacy event though this past Friday and I came away with a official record of 3-0-1. Good enough get me a tie for first place.

Here is my list:

Mainboard

x4 Wasteland
x3 Volcanic Island
x3 Tropical Island
x4 Wooded Foothills
x4 Flooded Strand

x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Delver of Secrets
x4 Nimble Mongoose

x4 Brainstorm
x4 Ponder
x4 Daze
x4 Force of Will
x4 Stifle
x2 Spell Pierce
x2 Spell Snare
x4 Lightning Bolt
x2 Forked Bolt


Sideboard

x2 Flusterstorm
x2 Rough
x2 Pyroblast
x1 Sulfur Elemental
x1 Ancient Grudge
x1 Destructive Revelry
x1 Vendilion Clique
x3 Submerge
x2 Grafdigger's Cage


Matchups

Round 1: 2-0 against Miracles. Big all star in game one was Nimble Mongoose. The Goose is so good in this matchup as I landed him early and chipped away at his life. My opponent was able to Terminus away the Goose at one point, but I held up a backup in hand that I stuck a new Goose the next turn. Game 2 was a similar story. Early Mongoose and not over committing to the board for a blowout Terminus. Pyroblast was an all star from the sideboard and I did get to Flusterstorm a Flusterstorm :tongue:

Sideboarding: -1 Goyf, -2 Daze, -2 Forked Bolt, -2 Lightning Bolt | +2 Pyroblast, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Destructive Revelry, +2 Flusterstorm

Round 2: 2-1 against B/R Re-animator. I lost the first game because of a weak hand to Reanimator and he killed me turn 3 or something. The other two games I landed Grafdigger's Cage on both of my turn ones after mulligans to find Cage. My opponent had no response to Cage and I beat him down with a threat eventually.

Sideboarding: -2 Forked Bolt, -2 Lightning Bolt, -2 Goyf | +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Vendilion Clique, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Destructive Revelry

Round 3: 2-0 against Charbelcher Not too much of interest to report here. I landed a Goose and had too much counter magic backup in both games. Other then that I should have brought in the Grafdigger's Cage as well as my opponent also was playing the Angel of Glory Rise graveyard combo from his sideboard.

Sideboarding: -2 Goyf, -2 Forked Bolt, -1 Lightning Bolt | +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Destructive Revelry, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Vendilion Clique

Round 4: Final round and we are the only players at 3-0, so, we choose to draw. We still play a casual game though and my opponent is on Miracles and I end up winning 2-0. Game one I tempo'd my opponent out of the game. I Stifle a land, play Goose, Waste them once, and kept up counter magic. Minor note, but I did Snare a Counter Balance at one point. Round 2 was a much slower start as Top and Terminus kept me from applying too much pressure. While at the same time I was able to be the control deck and prevent my opponent from getting anything going. Eventually I am able to keep a Goose on the board and prevent a Terminus with a Stifle on the Miracle trigger. Goose kicked butt again. Afterwards my opponent noted that his StP were useless and it made his Snapcasters much less potent.

Sideboarding: Same as round 1.

I spoke with a couple other players present and realized that my deck was pretty out of date (especially my sideboard). I have since made the following changes:


MD:

-2 Forked Bolt
2 Dismember


SB:

-1 Destructive Revelry
-1 Submerge
-1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfuric Vortex


Worth noting that maybe 1/3 of my local meta is miracles and that influenced my choice of moving all three of these cards in. Any thoughts my new list now?

Thanks!

[now]

Any thoughts on what Fatal Push will do to RUG? More True-Name Nemesis, less Tarmogoyf?

[rlesko]

Any thoughts on what Fatal Push will do to RUG? More True-Name Nemesis, less Tarmogoyf?

Need more context on this question. I don't think anything will change, the card can get spell pierced just fine.

[Pilhas]

3 week grind will start here in Portugal.
tournament trials today, sunday and saturday. And then A big tournament(portugal standards) on February(50-60 people).

Going to give Jonathan's list a spin with the following SB:

1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyroblast
2x Rough/Tumble
1x Spell Pierce
2x Submerge
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Winter Orb


Known meta is:
1 4color loam
4-6 delvers(BUGs and Grixis)
2 Miracles
1 D&T
1 Turbo Depths
1 S&S
1 Shardless BUG
1 Enchantress
1 Infect
1 Elves
1 BR Reanimator
1 Goblins
1 Jund
1 Bant
1 Eldrazi

Any comments on the side are appreciated.

[Jonathan Alexander]

First off, thanks for the feedback everybody, it means a lot! I'm not making any promises, but after my move this weekend, I will have a bit of downtime and I might finally be able to make some video content.


I spoke with a couple other players present and realized that my deck was pretty out of date (especially my sideboard). I have since made the following changes:


MD:

-2 Forked Bolt
2 Dismember


SB:

-1 Destructive Revelry
-1 Submerge
-1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
1 Sulfuric Vortex


Worth noting that maybe 1/3 of my local meta is miracles and that influenced my choice of moving all three of these cards in. Any thoughts my new list now?

I don't like Sulfuric Vortex nor Krosan Grip (disclaimer: I feel very strongly about my list and disagree with almost everything that's different barring a few slots). Sulfuric Vortex just isn't great. Miracles players are boarding Wear//Tear or Disenchant against Canadian anyway and if you only have one target, that's not going to stick around for long. I tried Eidolon of the Great Revel a while back and had a similar experience. Further, Vortex simply isn't high impact enough, nor is it efficient. I definitely wouldn't want it at two mana, and even at one mana I'm not sure I would want to have against Miracles.

Krosan Grip is in a group of cards that do things that I'm not looking to do when playing Canadian. And that thing is trying to salvage games that went terribly wrong. I think if you're at the point where you need/want Krosan Grip against Counterbalance, you have already lost. Your number one goal should be to prevent your opponent from doing meaningful things. If that's not working, it means your deck is falling apart; one Krosan Grip is not going to make a difference with that kind of draw.


Any thoughts on what Fatal Push will do to RUG? More True-Name Nemesis, less Tarmogoyf?

If it actually is going to have impact, I am going to try putting together a list that only has creatures that don't die to Bolt, Push or Dismember. Not sure if that's possible. Outside of that, I don't think it changes much.


3 week grind will start here in Portugal.
tournament trials today, sunday and saturday. And then A big tournament(portugal standards) on February(50-60 people).

Going to give Jonathan's list a spin with the following SB:

1x Ancient Grudge
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyroblast
2x Rough/Tumble
1x Spell Pierce
2x Submerge
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Winter Orb


Known meta is:
1 4color loam
4-6 delvers(BUGs and Grixis)
2 Miracles
1 D&T
1 Turbo Depths
1 S&S
1 Shardless BUG
1 Enchantress
1 Infect
1 Elves
1 BR Reanimator
1 Goblins
1 Jund
1 Bant
1 Eldrazi

Any comments on the side are appreciated.

First off, I don't like Rough // Tumble right now. I used to think it's good against Grixis, but I have come to realise that I prefer additional spot removal against them (Seal of Fire). I also think Rough is bad vs. Death & Taxes, which many players seem to disagree with. I think Rough plays out similar to Krosan Grip vs. Miracles in that matchup (see first quote). That being said, my deck isn't set up to beat Elves, so if you expect more of that, maybe you should keep Rough // Tumble.
Sulfur Elemental is a reasonable inclusion if you expect to play Death & Taxes multiple times, but it should not come at the cost of an Ancient Grudge. The number one goal in the matchup is to attack their mana and stunt their board development; you really can't allow Vial to stick around.
Maybe Cage should be Surgical? You don't seem to expect a real presence of graveyard decks though, so maybe you can just get by playing neither. I do not mind the splash damage vs. Elves though.

[Pilhas]

First off, I don't like Rough // Tumble right now. I used to think it's good against Grixis, but I have come to realise that I prefer additional spot removal against them (Seal of Fire). I also think Rough is bad vs. Death & Taxes, which many players seem to disagree with. I think Rough plays out similar to Krosan Grip vs. Miracles in that matchup (see first quote). That being said, my deck isn't set up to beat Elves, so if you expect more of that, maybe you should keep Rough // Tumble.
Sulfur Elemental is a reasonable inclusion if you expect to play Death & Taxes multiple times, but it should not come at the cost of an Ancient Grudge. The number one goal in the matchup is to attack their mana and stunt their board development; you really can't allow Vial to stick around.
Maybe Cage should be Surgical? You don't seem to expect a real presence of graveyard decks though, so maybe you can just get by playing neither. I do not mind the splash damage vs. Elves though.

The Rough/Tumble vs seal of fire intrigued me when you posted it but I never tested it. Maybe I should give it a try in the trials and take some conclusion from it.
Sulfur elemental was my tryout slot for this first tournament, I never played it on RUG and saw Kai's list with 2 so I thought to give it a go.
Maybe going for -2 Rough/Tumble +1 Grudge +1 Seal might give a more stable package.

I prefer Surgical over Cage but since so many players in Portugal don't have legacy cards, we(legacy core 4-5 players) ended up making 15+ decks and surgicals were hard to come by.
Taking Rough/tumble out might make Cage better though.



In your SB Guide you take Goyfs against D&T, do you just don't like the card in the matchup or is it to open space in the deck for the TNN?
Mongoose always seemed a bit lackluster in the MU but I always played a more reactive match against D&T with the tumbles

[Jonathan Alexander]

Sulfur elemental was my tryout slot for this first tournament, I never played it on RUG and saw Kai's list with 2 so I thought to give it a go.


By all means, try out your ideas. Just don't change cards prematurely. I have spend a lot of time working out my list and my configuration isn't random. Not saying I can't be wrong and the list probably needs to be slightly adjusted now, but I generally think you should always stick to the list you want to try without making changes (this goes for every deck). In most decks there are things going on that are very hard to see without playing the list yourself. (I really hope this doesn't come off as condescending. When I picked up Miracles after Prague I also stuck to lists my friend gave me.)


I prefer Surgical over Cage but since so many players in Portugal don't have legacy cards, we(legacy core 4-5 players) ended up making 15+ decks and surgicals were hard to come by.
Taking Rough/tumble out might make Cage better though.

Fair enough haha

Say hi to Joao Alveirinho if you run into him!



In your SB Guide you take Goyfs against D&T, do you just don't like the card in the matchup or is it to open space in the deck for the TNN?
Mongoose always seemed a bit lackluster in the MU but I always played a more reactive match against D&T with the tumbles

Both. Mongoose I think is great for not dying and being efficient. Mongoose things.

[Pilhas]

The great thing about this experiments is that I know I always have a list to go back to in case things don't work out or work out but worse.
Thanks for the help

[Pilhas]

Well, trial gone.
14 people at a Wednesday night is really good around here.
Meta was:
2x D&T
1x BUG Delver(Hymns)
1x BUG Delver(Stifles)
1x S&S
2x Turbo Depths
1x Elves
1x Eldrazi
1x 4C Midrange?(Noah Walker list from GP)
1x Miracles
1x Burn
1x Shardless BUG
1x RUG Delver <- ME

Can't get much more diverse than that.

List: Jonathan's Main
SB:
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyroblast
1x Seal of Fire
1x Spell Pierce
2x Submerge
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Winter Orb

Matchups(Borrowed cartothemax' formatting)

Round 1: Turbo Depths
Won first Game by putting a quick delver in play while countering a couple of hexmages.
Game 2 he goes for a turn 1 Needle on Wasteland and combo out on turn 3 after 2 Thoughtseizes.
Game 3 I missplay by not leaving submerge on top. I had submerge with 4 lands in play, and in the following turn was going to force the token(bolt hexmage) to submerge his marit lage, he had no forest in play. He duress me and took submerge, after a turn blocking with delver and digging for the second he had Not of this World so I was dead.

Sideboarding: -1 Counterspell, -2 Dismember, -1 Winter Orb | +2 Submerge, +1 Goyf, +1 Ancient Grudge
Sideboarding G3: -1 Counterspell, -2 Dismember, -1 Winter Orb, -1 Goose | +2 Submerge, +1 Goyf, +2 Ancient Grudge
(maybe should have brought Grudge in both play and draw. A bit lost in the sideboard for this mu)

0-1(1-2)

Round 2: Elves
Won both games in the back of a goose/delver and killing all creatures while taxing the mana. Pretty much RUG things.
We mulled to 6 on first game and in the second he mulled to 5 and I mulled to 6.

Sideboarding: -4 Stifles | +1 Grafdigger's Cage, +Seal of Fire, +2 Submerge

1-1(3-2)

Round 3: Death and Taxes
Game 1 he mulled to 5 and I started with a quick delver. He tried to swords it and I FoW and ran with it.
Game 2 I goes for mother t1, my hand is 1fetch,2volcs, fow, bs, 2delver, I am not sure on this play but I let it resolve since it doesn't affect my plan. I go for delver and he tries to play thalia next turn, I fow that. my turn flip delver to ponder and casted it. I find a daze and fow and I kept the fow. That way I can fow next play if relevant without getting my TNN 1 turn behind.
He goes for thalia again, I fow play TNN and ran with bot creatures.

Sideboarding: -2 Goyf, -4 Stifles, -1 Spell Pierce, -1 Counterspell | +2 Grudge, +2 TNN, +1 Seal of Fire, +1 Sulfuric Elemental, +2 Orb(maybe brought 1 to many?)

2-1(5-2)

Round 4: Shardless BUG
If I win this match I go to the top 4. SPOILER ALERT, I won't.
Game 1 I mulled to an uneventful 5 and he just shardless me out. I really think I should have kept my 6 cards no lander (2 goose, 1 daze,1 delver, 1 bolt, 1 bs). Opinions?
Game 2 I go for a quick Orb and attack his mana. He flooded out so mana was not an issue. However I missplayed by not submerging a goyf in response to a fetch, he had fow for it but then my double bolt would have killed it. Any creature in this +12 turn game would have stabilized since he bought nothing but lands.

Sideboarding: -4 Goose, -4 Force of Will | +2 Submerge, +2 TNN, +2 Orb, +1 Goyf +1 Seal of Fire
I really think I messed up in the Sb for this game. As soon as the match ended I checked the sb guide and It seems I got to far with it.

2-2(5-4)

In terms of the sideboard, the seal of fire was only relevant to my oponent(grew his goyf after a ts), did not miss rough/tumble against elves(albeit he mulled both games), grafdiggers gave me a safety net against elves, sulfur did not appear so I think I will play with it 1 more time to see if it impacts any game.

Any suggestions in the sb of the games please do.
And thanks for the help so far.

In case anyone wants to go to the 2nd edition of the big legacy tournament in Portugal(the event I am preparing to): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31318-Braga-Portugal-Bracara-Eternal-(2nd-Edition)

[cartothemax]

Thanks for the feedback on my sideboard changes Jonathan Alexander!



I don't like Sulfuric Vortex nor Krosan Grip (disclaimer: I feel very strongly about my list and disagree with almost everything that's different barring a few slots). Sulfuric Vortex just isn't great. Miracles players are boarding Wear//Tear or Disenchant against Canadian anyway and if you only have one target, that's not going to stick around for long. I tried Eidolon of the Great Revel a while back and had a similar experience. Further, Vortex simply isn't high impact enough, nor is it efficient. I definitely wouldn't want it at two mana, and even at one mana I'm not sure I would want to have against Miracles.

Krosan Grip is in a group of cards that do things that I'm not looking to do when playing Canadian. And that thing is trying to salvage games that went terribly wrong. I think if you're at the point where you need/want Krosan Grip against Counterbalance, you have already lost. Your number one goal should be to prevent your opponent from doing meaningful things. If that's not working, it means your deck is falling apart; one Krosan Grip is not going to make a difference with that kind of draw.


Sulfuric Vortex can definitely be hard to pay for. It's something that I have played in the past and have had the pleasure of watching it rot in my hand. It is a decent alternative threat though. It gets around all of the traditional removal of Miracles, so, I am bit surprised by how negative you are on it (even at one mana you wouldn't play it?! :tongue:) I am going to remove it for a Surgical Extraction though. Extraction has a lot of good utility along with being a third answer to re-animate from my sideboard.

Yeah, Krosan Grip is also a card that I have played in the past and had decent success with, but again the cost has been a problem. I do like it for the Miracles matchup, but it's great against Batterskull too (or any equipment for that matter). I did notice the lack of enchantment removal in you sideboard Jonathan Alexander. Do you just handle enchantments on the stack then? I am wondering if I should just move towards the double Ancient Grudge and move away from any enchantment removal out of the SB.

Thanks again!

[rlesko]

Yeah, Krosan Grip is also a card that I have played in the past and had decent success with, but again the cost has been a problem. I do like it for the Miracles matchup, but it's great against Batterskull too (or any equipment for that matter). I did notice the lack of enchantment removal in you sideboard Jonathan Alexander. Do you just handle enchantments on the stack then? I am wondering if I should just move towards the double Ancient Grudge and move away from any enchantment removal out of the SB.

Thanks again!

Jon can correct me if I'm wrong but I think he fully plans on dealing with enchantments with the 3 copies of spell snare and 1/2 copies of spell pierce. The relevant enchantments in legacy are CB (2), RIP (2), Sylvan (2), Animate Dead (2), Food Chain (3), Blood Moon (3), Aluren (4), and Sneak Attack (4). I used to run Krosan Grip but if you have to cast it it usually means something has already gone wrong. Theres something to be said about making the deck run better vs running average to bad cards in case things go wrong. If you really want a way to kill enchantments I would check out Seal of Primordium, grows goyf, can be played proactively, and I actually have had nice "gotcha" moments against SnT players with it.

[Jonathan Alexander]

What rlesko said.

[Pilhas]

Hey Jon,

If you expected a meta low on Miracles would you cut the 3rd Orb? If so, would you cut a sb slot or the maindeck one.... And for what?(meta compromises of mostly shaman decks)

[Jonathan Alexander]

That's hard to say. I like a card advantage / threat split card on the slot currently occupied by Orb (Sylvan Library is another example). There isn't really any single one card that's good against all the Deathrite decks either. That being said, I do think cutting one Orb is reasonable if you don't expect to face much Miracles. Maybe you can go back to the black splash for Painful Truths I had early last year? That could also be a reasonable maindeck card.

[wcm8]

Jonathan, what are your thoughts on dropping Red entirely in favor of Black, I.e. Volcanic Island -> Underground Sea, Bolt -> Push, sideboard slots swapped for corresponding options (including potentially Abrupt Decay)?

Is Red still a major and necessary component of the deck, or is it possible that the advantages that Black present are better? Or is really just a matter of circumstance?

When I play RUG, Lightning Bolt is either directed at small creatures (and thus interchangeable with Fatal Push), or it often gets sided out against decks with few/no creatures in which case the Red part of the deck is mostly irrelevant aside from a few potent sideboard options.

[Pilhas]

That's hard to say. I like a card advantage / threat split card on the slot currently occupied by Orb (Sylvan Library is another example). There isn't really any single one card that's good against all the Deathrite decks either. That being said, I do think cutting one Orb is reasonable if you don't expect to face much Miracles. Maybe you can go back to the black splash for Painful Truths I had early last year? That could also be a reasonable maindeck card.

I don't think I can get comfortable playing the black splash in time for the tournament. Probably going to try sylvan library on that slot(not super happy with it)

[Jonathan Alexander]

Jonathan, what are your thoughts on dropping Red entirely in favor of Black, I.e. Volcanic Island -> Underground Sea, Bolt -> Push, sideboard slots swapped for corresponding options (including potentially Abrupt Decay)?

Is Red still a major and necessary component of the deck, or is it possible that the advantages that Black present are better? Or is really just a matter of circumstance?

When I play RUG, Lightning Bolt is either directed at small creatures (and thus interchangeable with Fatal Push), or it often gets sided out against decks with few/no creatures in which case the Red part of the deck is mostly irrelevant aside from a few potent sideboard options.

My buddy HJ is working on it, but I have yet to play a game with such a list. I want to try it, but really the only black cards I like are Painful Truths and Dismember. My big issue with the black lists is how extremely bad the removal is - you are forced to run Decay because of Chalice and Counterbalance (you don't get Grudge/Pyroblast) and then you need to split your slots between one-mana removal for turn one Delver/Deathrite/Mother of Runes and removal for Gurmag Angler / True-Name.

Maybe you can largely relegate Decay to the sideboard (which might be what you're suggesting anyway?) and then it's somewhat reasonable. Miracles does seem to be on the decline though, so maybe the Pyroblast / Orb package is not that important anymore. I'll see if I can throw together a list to play in my local(s) on the weekend.


I don't think I can get comfortable playing the black splash in time for the tournament. Probably going to try sylvan library on that slot(not super happy with it)

It really doesn't change how the deck works. Just jam a few games vs. Sultai decks and see if you like Painful Truths (I think it's really good there, but I can only speak for myself).

[blablub]

Jonathan is reffering to this list i think:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/HJ_Kaiser

and it looks failry interesting though. obv. you change Disfigue to Fatal Pushes. I don't see a problem with Splitting the Removal. Payin 4 Life for killing DRS or Mom is totally fine i think. The biggest Problem is the obvious one. It doesnt go to the face

[wcm8]

Jonathan is reffering to this list i think:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/HJ_Kaiser
[Bolt] doesnt go to the face

Right, the lack of direct damage (and occasional killing of Planeswalkers) is a major part of why Red still has a solid place in Legacy.... but then this list is replacing Tarmogoyf for Deathrite Shaman, meaning you have a creature that can do a sort of 'direct damage' regardless of your opponent's defenses. (I would opt to cut a card for a 4th DRS by the way, possibly the second maindeck copy of Painful Truths). So you're not entirely screwed even if your opponent lands something like a, say, Moat.

And as you mentioned, you could split Fatal Push with Dismember if you felt that you still needed a way to kill Gurmag Anglers and Tombstalkers, as well as being able to kill threats with :1: instead of specifically :b:

I've been testing Team America with 4 Push/3 Decay, and aside from Hymn to Tourach, lack of Stifle and a different mixture of creatures, the deck is basically the same as RUG Delver and has games play out fairly similarly. I have been *loving* Fatal Push. Having reliable turn 1 removal makes the deck so, so much better against any deck running creatures, which were typically the most difficult matchups Game 1. With a decent sideboard, all major archetypes are handled quite soundly. (Leovold, Emissary of Trest is another great boost for BUG, and could just as easily fit in the sideboard of this deck).

RUG Delver is one matchup that proves to remain rather difficult for Team America, but it's made quite a bit easier and still slightly in my favor since my Tarmogoyfs remain mostly impervious to removal and can just brick-wall RUG's non-Delver threats. But if RUG drops Bolt for Push, that dynamic is going to change in a MAJOR way, and it's entirely possible that a BUG Thresh deck might be the best way of preying on the current format.

[rlesko]

I think the deck doesn't really need fatal push. Even if the effect was printed on color, not sure it would be played since dismember does everything push does (and more!) but at the cost of 4 life instead of revolt. On that topic, I think people will realize its harder to trigger revolt in real life than in theory. UBx decks may certainly pick it up as a way to constrain their abrupt decays less, but as previously stated dismember is still probably the better card in a vacuum. Regardless, still picking up a foil playset just to be safe :laugh:

[Whitefaces]

I think the deck doesn't really need fatal push. Even if the effect was printed on color, not sure it would be played since dismember does everything push does (and more!) but at the cost of 4 life instead of revolt. On that topic, I think people will realize its harder to trigger revolt in real life than in theory. UBx decks may certainly pick it up as a way to constrain their abrupt decays less, but as previously stated dismember is still probably the better card in a vacuum. Regardless, still picking up a foil playset just to be safe :laugh:

Fatal Push is almost certainly a downgrade for the deck compared the Lightning Bolt, but it's a card that replaces that slot. The appeal of moving to BUG colours is Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. It's not about being on colour, it's if these colours are the best fit for this strategy now.

[rlesko]

Fatal Push is almost certainly a downgrade for the deck compared the Lightning Bolt, but it's a card that replaces that slot. The appeal of moving to BUG colours is Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. It's not about being on colour, it's if these colours are the best fit for this strategy now.

It depends on what you consider to be "this strategy", then. I don't think any other combination of colors can run as efficiently or effectively with only 1 mana like canadian can (and execute the tempo game plan). But what I was leaning towards with my other point about dismember being superior to fatal push is that, BUG decks already have an efficient 1 mana removal spell in dismember (disfigure, too), with the capability to gain life (DRS) and actually pay black mana for the card. So, I don't think fatal push is tipping the scales for BUG decks over other colors. I honestly think push might be best as a sideboard card, but that is certainly discussion left for a different thread.

I like to think about things in terms of number of dead cards in your deck, too. If you have 3-4 decays and 3-4 push, thats 6-8 dead cards against combo decks. so you definitely run the risk of some extremely clunky draws.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Randomly weighing in without quoting because I'm lazy.

The main benefit of Lightning Bolt is not the ability to go through random stuff but to kill creatures and "time walk" against non-creature decks. For this reason, I consider Canadian the best Delver deck against combo before sideboarding. rlesko addressed dead cards vs. combo decks, and yes, that is an issue. You do get the benefit of running discard (after sideboarding) and Deathrite Shaman, which at least counts for something against Storm. I think it's an issue against Show and Tell decks though because you don't get Pyroblast.

Abrupt Decay is extremely overrated. I think it's bad removal that BG/x decks have to play because they don't get Pyroblast. When I was playing burg with Dig legal, I was actually boarding them out vs. Miracles. The removal split I'm looking to try out first is 4 Push / 2 Dismember, with Decays in the sideboard. I might cut one copy of Push to maindeck one Decay, but I don't think you need to because of Snare.

The real draw to black is Painful Truths. The card is really good in this deck. I also like being able to save deckbuilding space merging the Pyroblast / Ancient Grudge slot into Decay, although it might just be too bad.

A random aside on Team America that might or might not be relevant here:

Before GP Prague last year, I was playing both Canadian and Team America a lot and I was trying to figure out which one to play at the GP. I kept statistics on all the games I had with either deck and while my overall match win rate was higher with Team America, I had a better win rate with Canadian in every single matchup I played more than twice over the course of ~200 matches.

[Jonathan Alexander]

So I got to try out Dark Thresh today.


List: (https://deckstats.net/decks/65431/662855-05-02-2017-dark-thresh)

//Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
2 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 3 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Duress

I got weird matchups, so take everything with a grain of salt.

-Deathrite vs. Goyf is not a huge difference, especially with Fatal Push in the format.

-Mongoose is better than Goyf for sure.

-The deck's creature base is really flexible and smooth, which is cool. You can reasonably go down to seven creatures against removal heavy decks. Boarding out Mongooses entirely is totally fine as well, leaving you with 11 evasive threats.

-I don't think I've killed a single creature with Push that would not have died to Bolt.

-I did not get to play against combo, but having discard against Miracles is cool.

-Not having Pyroblast stinks. I don't think Decays do enough to remedy this. I would not mind an extra piece of countermagic, maybe a second Counterspell.

-Dread of Night is sweet, but I'm not sure how good it is vs. Mentor yet.

-I kinda want to draw Orb more often.

-Painful Truths is still amazing. I got to draw three turn two on the play with Daze & Force backup once, that was sick.

-I don't think I'm opposed to another land or maybe Life from the Loam. I considered my typical Loam + Ghost Quarter package, but I dismissed it to include both discard and Dread of Night.

-The removal split seems correct given the colour limitations.

Overall, I often felt I was playing a worse version of Canadian, but there is merit to playing this list. I think this deck beats at least the other three-colour Delver decks, and it's probably the best version against UR as well.

[wcm8]

I agree that Pyroblast is amazing; if there was an equivalent spell in BUG it would be played for sure. I also love Lightning Bolt and realize that it's a big component of what makes RUG a viable deck, and in fact when I was playing the deck I was also running 3-4 copies of Chain Lightning. The idea was to assess whether you could ignore the opponent's creatures and just save up a few burn spells to end the game. Black can't do this.

However, before dismissing Dark Thresh entirely as a worse version of Canadian, I would urge you to face off against more decks playing Tarmogoyf (or other biggies that die to Push but not Bolt) and also Miracles. There, you'll get a better sense of the advantages provided by Black that you simply wouldn't get with Red. I'd also suggest finding room for the 4th copy of Deathrite Shaman, as he is just sooo good for a whole boatload of reasons and works really well in tandem with Winter Orb.

In a vacuum, Red is better since the Black cards are mostly inherently reactive instead of potentially proactive. But on a long enough timeline, you'll get to see that there are times when Black is able to bail you out of situations that would otherwise be game over for Red.

[Whitefaces]

I'm trying Dark Thresh online at the moment too with the list below. While Push has been strong, the lack of Bolt and Pyroblast is so much more noticeable than I'd imagined. DRS and Mongoose are a lot worse together than I'd anticipated too. As you can see I don't have Truths, Snare (I thought Decay would shore up this slot) or Counterspell in the deck, which I think are all great, I'll give them a try. The TNNs in the SB seem good too, will definitely add that angle if I can get some soon.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2rn8z9t.jpg

[Jonathan Alexander]

However, before dismissing Dark Thresh entirely as a worse version of Canadian, I would urge you to face off against more decks playing Tarmogoyf (or other biggies that die to Push but not Bolt) and also Miracles. There, you'll get a better sense of the advantages provided by Black that you simply wouldn't get with Red.

I will definitely still toy around with the deck a little, I'm just not super happy with its current state. It's definitely not as good against Miracles, but I'm not sure if it's bad in the matchup. Leaning not good enough with the current setup.


I'd also suggest finding room for the 4th copy of Deathrite Shaman, as he is just sooo good for a whole boatload of reasons and works really well in tandem with Winter Orb.

I do have the fourth Deathrite Shaman. And I actually disagree about Deathrite and Orb, I think they don't work well together. The difference between untapping one and two mana sources is negligible, but if you want a clock, you either untap no lands or need a second creature.


In a vacuum, Red is better since the Black cards are mostly inherently reactive instead of potentially proactive. But on a long enough timeline, you'll get to see that there are times when Black is able to bail you out of situations that would otherwise be game over for Red.

That is true, but the red version is pretty good at preventing those from coming up. For example, it's cool to not be dead if a Counterbalance randomly resolves, but looking down at a Decay when your opponent has Jace is not the greatest feeling (had to Force, Pierce, Daze a Jace under Orb in the tournament I played). Again, I'm not saying black doesn't have upsides, but so far it has mostly felt inferior. I do think it's better set up in most creature matchups. I haven't quite figured out Death & Taxes and Elves yet, but I'm sure I can find good plans for those.


I'm trying Dark Thresh online at the moment too with the list below. While Push has been strong, the lack of Bolt and Pyroblast is so much more noticeable than I'd imagined. DRS and Mongoose are a lot worse together than I'd anticipated too. As you can see I don't have Truths, Snare (I thought Decay would shore up this slot) or Counterspell in the deck, which I think are all great, I'll give them a try. The TNNs in the SB seem good too, will definitely add that angle if I can get some soon.

Did you just start with HJ's list and go from there? True-Names are pretty much necessary I think, you want them in so many matchups. In general, I really, really like this deck's creature base and I'm considering just trying out my old black splash Canadian list with Deathrites over Goyfs.

[Whitefaces]

Did you just start with HJ's list and go from there? True-Names are pretty much necessary I think, you want them in so many matchups. In general, I really, really like this deck's creature base and I'm considering just trying out my old black splash Canadian list with Deathrites over Goyfs.

No, this is just what I put together the other day, I've seen his lists though and should take some notes from them.

Agree on True-Names, it's a great SB strategy. I'll get some when I can.

I don't think the mana would work if you replace Goyf with DRS unfortunately, you want Sea as your leading dual then which would lead to 4c.

I also feel like the deck wants a sweeper or two to fill the spot of Rough, not sure there are many good options in BUG though weirdly.

[ironclad8690]

Has anyone else thought to revive the old-style burg lists with Nimble, DRS, Delver, Maybe 1-2 Goyf or TNN? You can have your cake and eat it too with bolts decay Pyroblast and discard. The only downside is that you have to run a Taiga or badlands.

[ChemicalBurns]

To add to the conversation, here's my Dark Thresh list:

Creatures: (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 True-Name Nemesis

Non-Creature Spells: (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

Lands: (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: (15)
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember
2 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction

4-0ed my local beating 4c Loam, Reanimator, Miracles and Sneak & Show (had 4th Decay over Truths in SB) and 4-1ed my first League, beating 4c Loam (destroyed a giant Ooze by cantripping deep for Push), Shardless twice, lost to Elves (still hard for BUG, apparently, though as Jonathan said, I'm sure there's a good plan for it) and beat Food Chain.

I've hated the Pierces in the main but Snares have looked unreasonable due to having both Push/Decay covering those slots, but maybe I'm wrong and Snare is still just damn great. The Counterspell has been excellent, and the singleton True-Name main has bailed me out of heaps of tough situations.

I think I'll be trying Jonathan's removal suite of 3 Push/1 Dismember/2 Decay next, with the 3rd Decay in the board, as Decay has always felt just fine but has always been pretty mana inefficient. I've also been always happy to hit the one-of Painful Truths post-board and may look to pushing this number upwards to two, maybe finding room for a singleton main.

In my last League match I had to face down a curve of Goyf, Goyf, Goyf x2 from BUG Delver, but Push, Decay and finally Submerge all let my Delvers and Goose swing through for victory and win the race, something notably impossible for RUG with only access to Bolt. The sea of random BUG decks I seem to be facing makes Push look more and more reasonable, but I may just be biased.

Goose is also still one of the best creatures in Legacy and I haven't found the dissynergy with DRS too notable overall.

@Whitefaces I've got Marsh Casualties as my Rough // Tumble replacement, with added bonuses of being helpful against True-Name. But it's still pretty meh.

[Pilhas]

If the most interesting cards we get from black are PTruths/Shaman + TS/AD couldnt we be running a 4 color decklist?
Access to Shaman should smooth mana out, and from green we would have 4 goose + shaman and from red 4 bolts(Main). Maybe upping the land count to 19.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Uh. I was typing up a post but it was getting way too long, so I decided to just make it one of my blog posts. I'll sort my thoughts, maybe try out a few more things and have it out on Friday. I'll post here once it's out.

Until then, some quick thoughts:

-I think full-on burg is bad. The mana is too awkward too often in my experience. Maybe I just want to do things with the decks that it can't though.

-I talked to Kai yesterday and we discussed splashing for Pyroblasts in the sideboard. The change I proposed was -2 Dread -3 Duress +1 Counterspell +3 Pyroblast +1 Volcanic Island. I haven't tried it, but I'm not opposed to it. Maybe this way you do get the best of both worlds.

-I'm not convinced you need a sweeper. Against opposing True-Names, you can still just race. Yesterday, I played against Team America (Goyfless, by the way, which I have seen several people trying, so that's really good for regular Canadian) and my opponent had a True-Name on the board but still lost because I had Deathrite + Mongoose. Tribal decks I don't respect as a metagame presence right now, but the scales might have tipped and Elves is a deck to plan for at this point. I'm not investing two cards solely for a deck I am 5% to face though.

[Whitefaces]

I've hated the Pierces in the main but Snares have looked unreasonable due to having both Push/Decay covering those slots, but maybe I'm wrong and Snare is still just damn great. The Counterspell has been excellent, and the singleton True-Name main has bailed me out of heaps of tough situations.

I think I'll be trying Jonathan's removal suite of 3 Push/1 Dismember/2 Decay next, with the 3rd Decay in the board, as Decay has always felt just fine but has always been pretty mana inefficient. I've also been always happy to hit the one-of Painful Truths post-board and may look to pushing this number upwards to two, maybe finding room for a singleton main.

In my last League match I had to face down a curve of Goyf, Goyf, Goyf x2 from BUG Delver, but Push, Decay and finally Submerge all let my Delvers and Goose swing through for victory and win the race, something notably impossible for RUG with only access to Bolt. The sea of random BUG decks I seem to be facing makes Push look more and more reasonable, but I may just be biased.

Goose is also still one of the best creatures in Legacy and I haven't found the dissynergy with DRS too notable overall.

@Whitefaces I've got Marsh Casualties as my Rough // Tumble replacement, with added bonuses of being helpful against True-Name. But it's still pretty meh.

I've disliked the Pierces in the small amount I've played so far too, I can see one, pushing two, but three was overkill for sure. I had the exact same reservations for Snares, still not convinced they're what the deck wants. Saying that, there are plenty of things Snare hits that push and decay don't solve (Snapcaster mage for example)

The suite of 4 push, 2 decay, 1 dismember and another decay in the SB has felt good for me. I can see a Push being moved to the sb though, or maybe just cut.

Maybe I've just had awkward hands, but I've definitely felt a big tension between the shaman and goose.


Uh. I was typing up a post but it was getting way too long, so I decided to just make it one of my blog posts. I'll sort my thoughts, maybe try out a few more things and have it out on Friday. I'll post here once it's out.

Until then, some quick thoughts:

-I think full-on burg is bad. The mana is too awkward too often in my experience. Maybe I just want to do things with the decks that it can't though. Most important is needing 3 different duals vs 2 to operate.

-I talked to Kai yesterday and we discussed splashing for Pyroblasts in the sideboard. The change I proposed was -2 Dread -3 Duress +1 Counterspell +3 Pyroblast +1 Volcanic Island. I haven't tried it, but I'm not opposed to it. Maybe this way you do get the best of both worlds.

-I'm not convinced you need a sweeper. Against opposing True-Names, you can still just race. Yesterday, I played against Team America (Goyfless, by the way, which I have seen several people trying, so that's really good for regular Canadian) and my opponent had a True-Name on the board but still lost because I had Deathrite + Mongoose. Tribal decks I don't respect as a metagame presence right now, but the scales might have tipped and Elves is a deck to plan for at this point. I'm not investing two cards solely for a deck I am 5% to face though.

Nice, I look forward to reading it.

I think 4c can be great, but not in the tempo style of thresh, it's much more midrange these days. The difference of being able to operate off 2 vs 3 duals is pretty huge too. But another thing I've found awkward with DRS in thresh is that he makes you play out additional lands. The B needed to drain each turn while disrupting is no joke.

I've had this exact same thought about Pyroblast last night! I'll try that out too. The Red splash could give us access to Sudden Demise too.

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

I'm kind of newer to legacy, but what does everyone think about narnam renegade? I know you're not looking to trade with your opponent, but it seems like a creature that doesn't feel intimidated by an angler, for rug delver.

[Gloubi]

With regards to the "Dark Thresh" lists in this page. Aren't they just subsets of BUG delver, that have Mongoose and Stifle?
They don't seem to belong to this thread.

[mextremartini]

So I got to try out Dark Thresh today.


List: (https://deckstats.net/decks/65431/662855-05-02-2017-dark-thresh)

//Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
2 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 3 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Duress


Perhaps you should play 1 Green Sun Zenith 5th mongoose in matches where you take all other creatures out.
Looking forward for your blog posts. Cheers.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think Dark Thresh discussion belongs in this thread. It plays out very similarly to Canadian and with Push in the format, this might just be the way to play Threshold. There's a lot of experimentation going on with the deck, but as long as it's Mongoose + Stifle + Wasteland, I think it belongs in this thread.

Either way, I wrote down some boarding plans for my list: Google Doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1duCrsFBp6G45Wqm4NFheLcsaIlUqcC1mBW53xMeHtZo/edit?usp=sharing)

I have to admit I am not yet certain what to do in each matchup and I'm not super happy with the sideboard. I'm mostly cycling through the threat-base and Deathrite / Stifle splits. If you want plans for any other matchups, let me know, this is easy enough to edit.

[Pilhas]

Without having tested yet that version, it seems to be losing more thing than winning with the swap from red to black. Still not a fan of Shaman+decay when your objective is to max tempo your opponent. Also in the sideboard, losing access to pyroblast seems really punishing.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Oh, I am by no means convinced, I just think there is potential so it's worth looking into.

[blablub]

I dont understand that boarding-plan against the other Delver-Decks. If you want to bring in the 3 Nemesis and win the "late-game" i think you need Stifle to protect your Manabase. Otherwise i see me get tempoed out to death with 2 Nemesis in hand. Or did i miss anything?

Another point is that i like brining in Winterorbs against D/T. But i think its a little ambitous, then you have to make sure that they dont have vial. Do you think 3 Decays and 4 Forces are enough for that?

Would be good if you can explain that because i just dont get it :D

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think you either keep Stifles or Deathrites in the Delver mirror. Currently leaning Deathrite, but part of that is wanting to see how it plays out. Leaving only Delver as a target for removal spells also stinks a little. Also think 3 True-Name 2 Truths is more reasonable with Deathrite than Stifle - casting them turn two on the play is nuts.

I agree on Orbs vs. D&T, just not sure how well this deck can pull it off. If there's somehow room for a Null Rod, I'm down for it, probably cutting Truths.

Edit: I should point out that I was so unsure about my boarding vs. D&T that I had to check if I even gave an actual plan and not just suggestions.

[wcm8]

Deathrite enables sequences that are insane tempo, so I disagree with the notion that it's somehow working against the deck's main plan. That's going back to the initial spoiler season when the card was being mis-evaluated as a midrange-only component. He's a 1-mana Planeswalker, and the only creature that approaches the level of utility that he has is Mother of Runes, which only works ideally in a particular type of deck.

How are the following examples not tempo-positive plays?
-Turn 1 Sea; Deathrite
-Daze their Turn 1 play
-Turn 2 Wasteland their land; have mana up via Deathrite for a 1-drop, e.g. Stifle

Alternatively:
-Turn 1 Sea; Deathrite
-Opponent does thing
-Turn 2 Play 2nd Land; 2-drop followed by 1-drop, with Daze potential

Another thing that you don't have to agonize over is whether to deploy a threat/cantrip or leave mana open for Stifle/Spell Pierce/etc. With a land + DRS you can do both. Playing RUG, this sort of choice can often mean the difference between winning and losing -- why even force yourself to make that kind of decision if it can be cleanly sidestepped with DRS?

etc.

His ability to create chip damage through a stalled board state is incredibly useful. 2 damage at a time might seem negligible, but it accumulates quickly, and it's typical that DRS can do more damage (not to mention potential disruption) by the time Mongoose even reaches Threshold, and that's assuming there aren't any ground blockers. 3/3 isn't exactly huge in Legacy anymore. (Anecdotally, I'd say that the majority of my games playing Team America are won via DRS damage in top-deck mode, but that's also largely a function of how the deck plays out with Hymn to Tourach.)

Against any decks where you'd be throwing Bolts at the opponent's face and/or planeswalkers, you'd generally be siding removal out anyways, so I don't think the advantage of Bolt over Push is relevant outside of Game 1 scenarios.

Also there's the relevant factor that DRS provides disruption against the occasional graveyard-centric deck.

I think there's justification for a Stifle/Goose deck in a particular metagame (e.g. lots of RG Lands and/or Loam -- Goose is admittedly *great* against Maze of Ith and Punishing Fire), but it should still start with 4x Deathrite Shaman in the maindeck to be optimized.

I'm kind of unimpressed with Mongoose's shroud, as the majority of control decks tend to run sweeper effects (Terminus etc.). Without Thought Scour, he's often too slow to present a relevant clock before a control opponent can answer him. The other issue is stuff that just blocks him, often without even trading: True-Name Nemesis, Baleful Strix (yes it dies, but they got +1 card with its ETB effect), and of course Tarmogoyf -- which btw is still one of the BEST cards in a tempo mirror; Gurmag Angler and Tombstalker. I think if we really want that sort of creature, True-Name Nemesis, despite the extra mana cost is a better consideration. Mainly because it's evasive, is an unkillable wall, ignores stuff like Relic or RiP, and is Blue to pitch to FoW.

This is all particularly more true if Red is being dropped in favor of Black, meaning that aside from the rare double Delver nut draws, games are going to tend to go longer, especially without time-walking with multiple Lightning Bolts.

So that all said, a BUG Thresh list (i.e. running Stifle) should consider re-configuring its threat mix to adapt to the realities of the current Legacy metagame. My suggestion:

4 DRS
4 Delver
0-4 Tarmogoyf
0-4 TNN
0-1 Tombstalker/Gurmag Angler

[davide]

So I got to try out Dark Thresh today.


List: (https://deckstats.net/decks/65431/662855-05-02-2017-dark-thresh)

//Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
2 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 3 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Duress

I got weird matchups, so take everything with a grain of salt.

-Deathrite vs. Goyf is not a huge difference, especially with Fatal Push in the format.

-Mongoose is better than Goyf for sure.

-The deck's creature base is really flexible and smooth, which is cool. You can reasonably go down to seven creatures against removal heavy decks. Boarding out Mongooses entirely is totally fine as well, leaving you with 11 evasive threats.

-I don't think I've killed a single creature with Push that would not have died to Bolt.

-I did not get to play against combo, but having discard against Miracles is cool.

-Not having Pyroblast stinks. I don't think Decays do enough to remedy this. I would not mind an extra piece of countermagic, maybe a second Counterspell.

-Dread of Night is sweet, but I'm not sure how good it is vs. Mentor yet.

-I kinda want to draw Orb more often.

-Painful Truths is still amazing. I got to draw three turn two on the play with Daze & Force backup once, that was sick.

-I don't think I'm opposed to another land or maybe Life from the Loam. I considered my typical Loam + Ghost Quarter package, but I dismissed it to include both discard and Dread of Night.

-The removal split seems correct given the colour limitations.

Overall, I often felt I was playing a worse version of Canadian, but there is merit to playing this list. I think this deck beats at least the other three-colour Delver decks, and it's probably the best version against UR as well.

but go back to your first list of canadian ******** ? with one underground sea for the mono painful ?? 3 shaman, 3 delver and 4 nimble mongoose is not enough in this meta full of remouval and big creatures ...

[Whitefaces]

In theory, I agree with your points wcm8. But in practice so far DRS has been really underwhelming. I'm as surprised as anyone else would be. As I've mentioned in a post on the last page, the asynergy between him and Mongoose has been more relevant than I'd expected. But the main point of relevance has been having to play out a third land to let him clock the opponent to keep up two pieces of disruption. If you just have two lands out, activating him can give the opponent a window to resolve spells.

I ran the following list through a league just now. The sideboard has some tension and needs tweaking, but I was a bit impatient to start the league as I've not had the chance to play in a little while.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Fatal Push
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
8 fetch

SB//
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
1 Fatal Push
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
2 Winter Orb
2 Painful Truths

2-0 vs Miracles

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Null Rod
+2 Winter Orb
+2 Painful Truths

-4 Delver of Secrets
-2 Deathrite Shaman
-3 Fatal Push
-1 Dismember

2-0 vs Burn

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Fatal Push
+2 True-Name Nemesis

-1 Dismember
-4 Stifle

2-0 vs Shardless

+1 Fatal Push
+2 Winter Orb
+2 Painful Truths

-2 Spell Pierce
-2 Force of Will
-1 Daze

0-2 vs Elves (this feels impossible unless we dedicate some SB slots to it)

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Abrupt Decay

-2 Daze
-2 Spell Pierce

Maybe this is incorrect?

2-1 vs Sneak and Show

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 True-Name Nemesis

-2 Fatal Push
-1 Dismember
-2 Spell Snare

[ChemicalBurns]

Some good discussion here.

@Gloubi, this is really much more in line with what Canadian Threshold wants to be doing. If anything, Delver decks really shouldn't be defined by their colours and more so their game plan. The Team America thread has always largely focussed on tap-out Hymn variants. The Canadian Threshold has always focused on Stifle/Wasteland/Goose decks, and this certainly falls into that camp. Philosophy wise, this is not Team America. This is Tempo Thresh.

@wcm8 and Whitefaces, I kind of agree with... Both of you? Certainly, there is tension between DRS and Goose, but I haven't found it too difficult to conserve my GY at seven. Furthermore, if your DRS is alive in the first few turns, you tend to be winning a lot of those games anyway, exactly for the reason that wcm8 mentioned - you get to go really tempo-crazy with an active DRS out on Birds of Paradise mode. Your Dazes become incredible, as does your ability to hold up soft counters. I'll agree that the drain effect is less impressive in a deck such as this that is very mana-tight though.

@wcm8, I'm not sure why Mongoose feels underwhelming for you - I think it's in a great place in the metagame. Low amounts of Eldrazi, where Goose would be a liability, along with more Decays flying around make him very well positioned. I can understand the sentiment that more TNN may just be more useful, but having a threat that is easy to deploy and synergises with one-mana counters is very important. We start to move into an incredibly midrangey, tap-out direction if we add too many bomby cards - might as well play TA. This is fine post-board, but g1 I'm sure we'd prefer to execute our streamlined tempo gameplan. If anything, if you're out on Mongoose I could see the threat suite incorporating Anglers and TNN instead of Goyfs, but these are all very slow to deploy cards compared to Goose which is a feasible play at multiple stages in the game.

@JonLX the D&T matchup I am also iffy on. I agree that Orb can be insane when you can capitalise on their clunky curve, as long as you shut down Vial. I generally swap Daze/Force for play or draw. When on the play, Daze Vial into Snare Thalia etc. is back-breaking, as has been the case in RUG. That being said, we are super cold to Mirran Crusader with this list, other than TNN.

Vs. D&T I board
-4 Goose
-4 Daze otd, -4 Force otp
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Marsh Casualties

Also, if anyone hasn't read it, my list + some info on Dark Thresh is up here:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-january-2017-statistics-and-dark-tempo-thresh

Thanks everyone as always for their thoughts and contributions, certainly helped in the article writing. :)

[Pilhas]

Any help in boarding plan against Turbo Depths?
Running Jonathan 75(MD: -1Orb +1Lavamancer(still not sure on this slot) SB: -1Surgical +1Grafdiggers Cage)

[JackaBo]

I'm putting together a BUG tempodeck and felt this forum to be the correct one: I'm playing Stifle and no discard.

List
8 blue fetches
4 BS, ponder, FOW, Daze, delver, pushes, wastelands, stifles
3 trops, ugs, spell pierce
2 decay
1 winter orb (main!)
Then theres 8 creature-slots left
I'm thinking 3-4 shamans
2 anglers OR 2 bob
2 snapcasters or 2 gooses
0-1 TNN
I'm not buying into goyfs right now

SB will be 2 more decay, 2 more winter orb, and normal stuff

I'd be happy for feedback on the list overall and advice on the creatures



Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[Goddik]

hi guys

Ran a bunch of matches with the dark thresh list a few weeks ago to something like a 75+ % match win rate (before push). Was pretty intense. Almost made me wonder if we should have been playing this before push, but just never discovered it

A few notes

1) Main reasons to play it over rug are
a) Access to painfull truths which is insane in the deck
b) Ability to gun down tarmogoyfs so they don't brickwall mongoose

Without truths it pretty quickly degenerates into a worse version of rug. Killing tarmogoyf is nice, but bolts have upsides that are definitely also signifant

2) Miracle matchup
a) Practically a bye if you play mongoose, 2 truths main and 2 orb board. Was 9-1 in matches against it with the games I lost being manascrew.
b) Also extremely good with jonathans version of Canadian where pyroblast does the same as decay=> Kindda the same for me

3) Deathrite mirrors (incl. shardless)
a) Most of my losses were in these matchups. Felt like 50/50 matchups. Some number of these were driven by dismember making me loose races, so it might be that push + switching to toxic from gg charm solves this somewhat
b) Lost some games to shardless where it would go long, and my mongooses would be brickwalled by tons of 2/2s... Very awkward

4) The joy of the 6 shroud creastueres
- Super sweet to play long shroud control games against any sort of nonsense with removal. Whenever my opponent plays jund/stoneblade/4c loam etc. I just board out all my deathrites and pitch delvers to fow and watch them clutch all their removal :-) Such beauty. Particularly when we can now kill all their goyfs/knights easily

I am sort of wondering if the matchup against miracles is so good, that we can afford to dump the mongooses to play hooters instead, which are much better for deathrite mirrors.0

My list is below for reference. Quite happy with the 75 including the sideboard, except for the weakness in deathrite mirrors mentioned above. could switch a decay and a fatal push between main and board.

4 Force of Will
4 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Tropical Island
4 Stifle
1 Counterspell
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Snare
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Winter Orb
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Abrupt Decay
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict

[Jonathan Alexander]

Sorry, after writing my article, I'm a little worn out on writing, so I'm not gonna participate in the discussion right. However:

#theweeklywars #17 – An Elf, a Human and a Mongoose walk into a bar… (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/10/theweeklywars-17-an-elf-a-human-and-a-mongoose-walk-into-a-bar/)

Hope this is helpful.

[Drisoth]

Going back to traditional RUG here's my current list, since everyone seems to be on the JonLx train I'll go over my reasoning for my changes.

Creatures (12)
4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

Lands (18)
3 Trops
3 Volcs
8 Fetches
4 wasteland

Cantrips (8)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Counters (16)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

Removal (6)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 True-Name
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Seal of Fire
1 Sylvan Library

So the Differences Main are

Spell Snare -> Spell Pierce

I really like Snare, I just don't like the third very targeted counter-magic over a more general one that usually will be close to as good, This is unlikely to be very controversial though so moving on

Winter Orb -> Goyf

I felt JonLx's list gave up too much ground to other matchups for miracles. I've been a huge fan of 4 goyf for quite a while, In my opinion and based on my assessment of matchups where goyf is good vs winter orb is good, goyf is more likely to be good, than winter orb, but this swap can more easily be understood as swapping the SB goyf and the MD orb, because that's how it started out.

Counterspell -> Goyf

Drawing off of the previous change, I feel goyf is very important in many matchups, and some from my experience come down almost entirely to being able to keep a goyf in play or playing as many as possible (Delver mirrors, Eldrazi etc.) Because of this, I cut the counterspell to allow me to be able to have the maximum number of huge ground bodies. In addition it was very rare that I would feel like I was running too little countermagic, and additional threats were usually welcome.

On to the sideboard

Cage -> Surgical

I want to be able to cantrip into my gravehate on turn 1, in addition I needed an extra card to bring in vs miracles due to the extra goyf. Likely not controversial so moving on.

Winter Orb -> Sylvan Library

In testing matchups where all three orbs come in (read miracles), I would have an issue where my orbs would start to clutter my hand, my solution became to replace on with a library. The argument being if you draw orb and then find the library, you're quite happy and if both resolve your win rate is probably over 90%. If however you draw library first, it will help you find a winter orb. I have never had an issue finding an orb in a game where I found library.

The counter argument I hear most often for this is it turns on both halves of wear // tear , my rebuttal is if you have an orb and a library, the game very rapidly gets out of control for miracles and after ~2 library triggers I don't think you should be able to lose that game. It helps you recover extremely quickly from counter wars, as well as providing filtering, while I'm sure everyone here knows the power of library vs miracles the combination of orb and library is so much better than the sum of the parts.

2x Submerge -> 2x Rough // Tumble

I was really confused about the 0 rough 2 submerge in JonLx's list, and this is the thing i most want peoples opinion on, there are very few matchups where I feel I want submerge, and rough isn't as good. (primarily BUG decks and lands). However there are many matchups where rough is absolutely absurd and submerge is just good or even unplayable (Elves, D&T, grixis, TES and to a lesser extent other storm)

Anyway, I'd like people's opinion on these even if you tell me I'm insane, as long as you explain why you think so I'll be happy.

[Whitefaces]

I've been playing the BUG version a lot in leagues online the past week, mostly to frustrating 4-1 finishes (lost the last round twice).

A few thoughts

Counterspell has been surprisingly bad, mostly due to clunkiness. Obviously it's solid vs Miracles but we don't need a lot of help there. Lots of BUG midrange decks are playing some number of Daze which is awkward. I feel like in theory it's alright, but in practice doesn't play well in the deck.

I've been playing with two DRS main, still on the fence if a third would be good but I never like drawing more than one.

Truths has been solid. I was very skeptical at first because of the nature of the deck, a 3cmc sorcery seemed weird. But you can create decent spots to cast it easier than I thought.

The SB plan for Miracles Jonathan has suggested is amazing, I've only lost to the deck twice (one was just a friendly vs a friend).

The removal suite of 3/2/1 push/decay/dismember has felt great, really happy with that. Push has been exceptional, if you're expecting a lot of creature decks in your meta I'd play a fourth.

I've tried Marsh Casualties for a bit in the SB, the BB is really awkward so going to cut that. I want to try some number of Submerge, especially since BUG is being played more than Grixis at the moment. Not sure how I feel about Deluge, Goddik, how has it been for you?

Storm has been seeing quite the resurgence, with that plus Miracles and DnT being big I don't hate the idea of a second Null Rod.

Pretty certain I'm going to play the deck at the Paris Eternal Weekend in March.

So going forward I'll try

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Dismember

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage or second Surgical
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
2 Sumberge
3 True-Name Nemesis

[Artemis90]

@Whitefaces and Goddik:

How is the D&T MU with your lists? Traditionell BUG Delver already had problems against this Deck and I wonder if it isnt getting even worse without Tarmo / Tombstalker / Hymn.
Is Push in the Maindeck and TNN / DoN / Toxic Deluge / Null Rod in your Sideboards enough to compensate for this?? I really like the deck and want to test it, but besides Miracles, Delver and S&T I have a lot of D&T in my local Metagame.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I always really liked the D&T matchup with Goddik's Team America lists. Of course, we had Jace and four sweepers, but if you're worried about D&T specifically, you can always run Dread of Night, as I did in my initial Dark Thresh list. Jace over Painful Truths is something I want to try out anyway.

[Goddik]

D^T hasn't been great with list, used to be able to play a control game with TA with jace and infi sweepers, but I am a bit reluctant to go there on 18 lands. I have wondered if I should just have an extra land, a loam and a pair of jaces in the board and do it anyway.

Deluge is mostly theory. I love it in TA, as it can sweep deathrites, stoneforges and all manner of nastiness that gg charm just doesn't get. Not certain enough that it shouldn't be gg charm, but it certainly is more flexible

Really hate dread of night. Such a narrow card. Would rather play more real sweepers and get elves, goblins or whatever else the random kids turn up with

[Jonathan Alexander]

elves, goblins or whatever else the random kids turn up with

Such an old man quote haha

[Draggo]

I've been playing the BUG version a lot in leagues online the past week, mostly to frustrating 4-1 finishes (lost the last round twice).

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Dismember

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage or second Surgical
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
2 Sumberge
3 True-Name Nemesis

I really like this list. It seems to have the same idea of a Grixis list I run that has alot in common with the standardized RUG-lists;
4 Delver
4 Shaman
3 Angler
1 Clique
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
6 Flex that are at the moment: 2 Probe/ 2 Pierce/ 1 Push/ 1 Divert (divert is experimental, used to be in side)
18 lands: 6 duals/ 8 fetch/ 4 waste

Compairing your list with most tempo-based decks (including mine) I wonder if you don't miss having 12 creatures. Every time I go to 10 or 11 it feels that I lack threads on the field.
Also you mentioned that the Truths are doing really good. Can you see these being replaced for Probes (blue for pitch, ging free information and a card in the grave)?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I have some content on my Delverless-Canadian list that I played in the February Legacy Challenge:

#theweeklywars #18 — February Legacy Challenge (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/17/theweeklywars-18-february-legacy-challenge/)

[wcm8]

Thanks for sharing your videos and tech. I agree with the idea that Aggro-Control decks need to be willing to slay their 'sacred cows' in order to properly evolve with meta-game shifts, and in this case Delver of Secrets deserves reconsideration. I like the approach of 'next-leveling' RUG by only playing creatures that dodge the majority of commonly-played removal. As you pointed out, an advantage of this approach is that you don't need to play nearly as many threats, and can instead run additional control elements. Against decks that run sweepers (e.g. UWr Miracles), you have Winter Orb to ruin their day.

I've done a similar thing with re-configuring my BUG list, cutting Delver entirely and modifying the threat mix to better attack the format. However, I diverge a bit in terms of card choices, as the lack of Lightning Bolt demands that there be more creatures available to end the game.

Good luck with the continued evolution of the archetype!

[rlesko]

How has Mandrill's been working out (Especially in a list with 5 threshold cards)?

[wcm8]

I've only tested Jon's list a few times, but so far I really liked it. Hooting Mandrills has a few advantages over Tarmogoyf:
1. Dodges Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay
2. Can still deal damage through a True-Name Nemesis or Mother of Runes
3. Generally only costs 1 mana to cast, allowing you to keep up mana to cast your control spells
4. Against combo, presents a faster clock (typically Tarmo is no bigger than a 3/4)
5. More likely to resolve through Counterbalance
6. Dodges Engineered Explosives, Spell Snare and other CMC-reliant things
7. Can Delve away cards to shrink opposing Goyfs and/or limit your opponent's DRS targets

While there is some obvious dis-synergy with Nimble Mongoose, the deck generally has no problem maintaining a timely threat. Plus you can dredge Life from the Loam to quickly fill up your graveyard. Mandrills goes great along with Mongoose and TNN as a mostly removal-proof threat. I really like this new approach to RUG, and it's proof that Delver of Secrets is NOT an essential component.

[Jonathan Alexander]

How has Mandrill's been working out (Especially in a list with 5 threshold cards)?

Mandrils have been great and Delve hasn't been an issue (=

I suggest you try them out for yourself, even alongside Delver.

By the way, more videos:

#thedailywars #2 — February Legacy Challenge Round Two vs. Miracles (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/18/thedailywars-2-february-legacy-challenge-round-two-vs-miracles/)

#thedailywars #3 — February Legacy Challenge Round Three vs. Belcher (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/thedailywars-3-february-legacy-challenge-round-three-vs-belcher/)

[wcm8]

I think there are two valid ways to approach playing RUG tempo:

1) Play a hyper-aggressive list with Delver of Secrets, Nimble Mongoose and probably Tarmogoyf. In addition to your 4 Lightning Bolts, play additional copies of burn, e.g. Chain Lightning and possible some copies of Price of Progress in the sideboard. Consider also playing Thought Scour: besides helping achieve early Threshold and turning Mongoose into a legitimate early threat, it can also be used to disrupt an opponent's top-decks. The idea with a list like this is to swing in a few times with early threats, and use burn spells to end the game later regardless of how messy the board state is. A list like this might or might not even run Stifle, instead just focusing on countering must-answer spells that could disrupt your angle of attack.

2) Play a list like Jonathan Alexander's, which attempts to Blank the majority of an opponent's removal spells with a carefully selected threat mix, and also keep the opponent in a perpetual early-game state via Stifle, Loam-Lock and Winter Orb. Against the current metagame, this approach seems ideal, though I suppose control decks could learn to adapt to this approach somewhat by playing more sweepers.

I think that lists that try to do both roles are not going to be quite as successful going forward.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I'm not sure I agree. Playing Canadian as an aggro deck is something I have always considered wrong and in fact that mentality is what I think has been holding the deck back for so long. As you pointed out, casting things like Stifle is not really what you want to be doing in that kind of deck, but the flexibility that Stifle offers (that almost all spells in the deck offer, in fact) is what makes this Canadian Threshold so good. Almost all of the spells can be used both offensively and defensively. You can use the cards to ride an efficient beater to victory or you can abuse the deck's mana denial package to play a control game based around virtual card advantage.

I also think Delver of Secrets still has a place in lists like mine; blanking the opponents' removal isn't great when they know that it's blanked. Having Delver in the 75 does make some matchups better (notably Miracles G1, but also the combo matchups and Eldrazi) and allows you to play some interesting RPS-type games during sideboarding.

Tarmogoyf is another story, I think that card's just dead now.

Edit: Not saying that I think aggressive Delver decks aren't good, I just agree with your notion that this isn't really the right shell and I think you'd want to take it further than just cutting Stifle; UR Delver is a very good deck and I just don't see a reason to dilute that with an extra colour just to run Nimble Mongoose, which isn't really a great fit anyway.

[mextremartini]

Edit: Not saying that I think aggressive Delver decks aren't good, I just agree with your notion that this isn't really the right shell and I think you'd want to take it further than just cutting Stifle; UR Delver is a very good deck and I just don't see a reason to dilute that with an extra colour just to run Nimble Mongoose, which isn't really a great fit anyway.

Aggro RUG might gotten better now with 4 Narnam Renegate, Delver and Hooting Mandrils tho.

[kombatkiwi]

I scrubbed out of the main event at GP Brisbane so hit up the side events.
Combined record of 7-2 over the 2 tournaments.

2-0 Miracles
2-0 Dredge
1-0 Infect
1-0 Deathblade
1-1 Elves
0-1 Death and Taxes

Main:
4 Delver
4 Goose
3 Goyf

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
3 Snare
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Seal of Fire

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic
3 Tropical
8 Fetchlands

SB
3 Winter Orb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
2 Rough/Tumble (In the 2nd event I played 1 Rough/Tumble, 1 Forked Bolt)
1 Spell Pierce
2 True-Name Nemesis

Happy with the list, I probably wouldn't change anything. I might want another DNT/Elves card in the SB but I don't know what to cut for it.

[AdventuresWithTarmo]

I kind of like the idea that goyf is dead now. Decks like RUG can evolve. Creatures needing utility or ability to dodge removal (and be 1 mana too) is important. I may have a playset, but seeing decks like Johns get me excited. It's not only new and fresh, but it's a really good idea.

Less resources spent protecting a threat, more to disrupt the opponent with. That deck is sick. Decks like grixis delver follow the same idea sort of. Young Pyromancer is a resilient beater.

[rlesko]

I'll always have a bias for Goyf, but I can't help but think cutting him is an overreaction to the new printings. While the number of fatal pushes will certainly be nonzero going forward, you have to think it will come at the cost of running less abrupt decays, and lets not forget, we can always counter push. I understand the role that he and cards like true name nemesis serve and think probably a split like 2/2 or 3/2 in the 75 is correct. I know Jon's latest list was playing 2/2 before trying wholesale changes (like cutting delvers, playing loam main, etc. I think this is great work its just separate from the point I'm trying to make right now) and the top 32 list at GP Louisville had the same split.

If we are really worried about push one thing we can do besides running push-proof creatures is adjust our counterspells. Maybe flusterstorm / spell pierce, disrupt or dispel become cards to play to protect your goyfs and delvers from bolts, pushes, and swords. Also really wacky things like seal of removal to save your guy or bounce their fatty. I am really excited about the amount of innovation that people are putting into this deck, though. Long live the goyf!

[KobeBryan]

I'll always have a bias for Goyf, but I can't help but think cutting him is an overreaction to the new printings. While the number of fatal pushes will certainly be nonzero going forward, you have to think it will come at the cost of running less abrupt decays, and lets not forget, we can always counter push. I understand the role that he and cards like true name nemesis serve and think probably a split like 2/2 or 3/2 in the 75 is correct. I know Jon's latest list was playing 2/2 before trying wholesale changes (like cutting delvers, playing loam main, etc. I think this is great work its just separate from the point I'm trying to make right now) and the top 32 list at GP Louisville had the same split.

If we are really worried about push one thing we can do besides running push-proof creatures is adjust our counterspells. Maybe flusterstorm / spell pierce, disrupt or dispel become cards to play to protect your goyfs and delvers from bolts, pushes, and swords. Also really wacky things like seal of removal to save your guy or bounce their fatty. I am really excited about the amount of innovation that people are putting into this deck, though. Long live the goyf!

I dont' understand why people are going nuts over a removal printing.

All decks already have removal. Decks are not cutting other cards to add in 8 removals in a deck. The number of removals in a deck always remain 4-5 in MD then 2 more in the side.

This has always been true and people would not be running 16 removals all of a sudden. The removal may be better, but what is to say that the older removals before this printing couldn't handle its business.

[rlesko]

I dont' understand why people are going nuts over a removal printing.

All decks already have removal. Decks are not cutting other cards to add in 8 removals in a deck. The number of removals in a deck always remain 4-5 in MD then 2 more in the side.

This has always been true and people would not be running 16 removals all of a sudden. The removal may be better, but what is to say that the older removals before this printing couldn't handle its business.

Wish I could like this post

[Jonathan Alexander]

Aggro RUG might gotten better now with 4 Narnam Renegate, Delver and Hooting Mandrils tho.

I don't think those cards are better than the Prowess threats. Swiftspear is so strong.

kombatkiwi, nice run. Death & Taxes seems to be a problem matchup, when I'm done with the Legacy Challenge videos I'll check if I have some replays worth covering. I think your list is well set up for the matchup as is.


As for the Goyf thing, it's not all about Fatal Push entering the format, although I have to say that better removal does really change a lot. Look at Black decks before the printing of Decay for example, they always had really bad removal. Remember when people played Smother? That's how terrible removal used to be.

The main reason my 2016 list had Tarmogoyf was to be able to board out Nimble Mongoose vs. Eldrazi and still have a reasonable creature base. Honestly, I should've experimented with Madrills or more True-Names over Tarmogoyfs earlier, although I have to say that I liked the "board out Delver, run Seal of Fire" approach vs. Grixis a lot.

[rlesko]

As for the Goyf thing, it's not all about Fatal Push entering the format, although I have to say that better removal does really change a lot. Look at Black decks before the printing of Decay for example, they always had really bad removal. Remember when people played Smother? That's how terrible removal used to be.

The main reason my 2016 list had Tarmogoyf was to be able to board out Nimble Mongoose vs. Eldrazi and still have a reasonable creature base. Honestly, I should've experimented with Madrills or more True-Names over Tarmogoyfs earlier, although I have to say that I liked the "board out Delver, run Seal of Fire" approach vs. Grixis a lot.

Lets dissect this a little further. In the current meta, "black decks" constitute UBx delver (grixis and BUG), shardless BUG, and maybe jund?
-Shardless is not cutting decays for push, as the deck is super tight and decay is an infinitely better cascade. push is purely a disfigure replacement (a better one, no doubt). But an upgrade of a two off in the sideboard is not invalidating goyf
-Grixis delver will play 0-2 as compliments to its 4 lightning bolts as the meta dictates. definitely a small boon for them as tarmogoyf was one of the most difficult cards for them to deal with pre board. But no real reason to fear this card as our mana denial and soft countermagic strategies are at their best against a deck like this
-bug delver is the only real question mark. its possible they play as many as 4 fatal pushes and only 2 decays since they finally have a reasonable 1 mana removal spell. relying on 2 mana spells when trying to play dazes and stifles was always awkward.
-Jund will not play this card, and is not popular at all anyways

Goyf still has a lot to offer us, I think. I will continue to play him

[Jonathan Alexander]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

[kombatkiwi]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

I also really like the idea of Mandrills vs Elves because it prevents them from stalling the game out by bounce-blocking with Quirion Ranger / Symbiote (and they can't Decay it either). I'm not sure how it fits in a list with Mongoose though and being only a 4/4 against Eldrazi/Angler.

[mextremartini]

Another reasoning that I've been thinking a lot is : what if instead of playing all untargetable, resilient creatures like mongoose and TNN, we could play only targetable but stronger, faster creatures.

While the first group of creatures are strong, they are also quite slow for my senses. So I would recommend going for the slit of 4 Delver, 4 Hooting Mandrils, 3 Young Pyro 1 Vendillion Clique and 4 Probe 2 Dismember in the flex slots.
Perhaps it too much phyrexian mana in there, numbers arent perfect, but the ability to trample over, fly over or go wide seems very interesting to me.

And why play over grixis then ?
I think they play too many creatures and are less interactive than this deck. Also Hooting Mandrils is VERY powerful magic card, deals a lot of damage for 1 mana and tramples over their creatures.
The lack of shaman is debatable , but they consume graveyard and mana resources throughout the game ...

[Ralf]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12671&d=273417&f=LE

Well I guess it is, somehow, in the landscape for a while.
I'm playing a tweaked version ever since.

[rlesko]

It's not about Goyf being bad because everyone will play Push (which, as you pointed out, is not the case). It's that I'd much rather have Mandrils or True-Name than Goyf if my opponent has Push, Decay, True-Name, Mother of Runes, Spell Snare etc. in their deck. As I said, I think we should've experimented with this much earlier, same as Winter Orb was implemented about five years too late. Makes me wonder what other cards are out there that we should be playing.

Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess it was just the timing of everything that made me attribute all this talk to fatal push.

Its funny, right around the time you started making winter orb popular again I randomly stumbled across some MTG history articles such as the history of miracle gro. Winter orb used to be a 4 of in these lists, and I definitely wondered why that fell out of favor. I definitely think we can learn from the past and try to incorporate old cards that have fallen out of favor. The card I'm most interested in is Predict. Whether we need additional cards to run along side it, or how many we should run I am not sure.

[Guest2511]

Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess it was just the timing of everything that made me attribute all this talk to fatal push.

Its funny, right around the time you started making winter orb popular again I randomly stumbled across some MTG history articles such as the history of miracle gro. Winter orb used to be a 4 of in these lists, and I definitely wondered why that fell out of favor. I definitely think we can learn from the past and try to incorporate old cards that have fallen out of favor. The card I'm most interested in is Predict. Whether we need additional cards to run along side it, or how many we should run I am not sure.

I think people forgot Winter Orb because when people started messing with Canadian, around the time Tarmogoyf was printed, the meta had a lot of "aggro" decks, first Goblins then a bit later Merfolk and Zoo. The control deck, which Winter Orb would punish, was Landstill, but it was far from the popularity and power that Miracles currently has.

[blablub]

Hey Guys,
short question: Do you bring in Winter Orbs against the Reid Duke-BUG Deck? Obv. its nice if they wanna deploy 3 and 4 drops but i'm a little bit scared about their 8 Manadorks. In Gerneral what would you bring in with Dark Thresh and whats your overall Strategie in this MU? Haven't played against that deck but i want to be prepared :) Thank you guys :)

[rlesko]

I think people forgot Winter Orb because when people started messing with Canadian, around the time Tarmogoyf was printed, the meta had a lot of "aggro" decks, first Goblins then a bit later Merfolk and Zoo. The control deck, which Winter Orb would punish, was Landstill, but it was far from the popularity and power that Miracles currently has.

Good to know. I wasn't playing legacy then so thanks for the history lesson :)


Hey Guys,
short question: Do you bring in Winter Orbs against the Reid Duke-BUG Deck? Obv. its nice if they wanna deploy 3 and 4 drops but i'm a little bit scared about their 8 Manadorks. In Gerneral what would you bring in with Dark Thresh and whats your overall Strategie in this MU? Haven't played against that deck but i want to be prepared :) Thank you guys :)

Pyroblast seems insanely good against them. What is your 75? I would probably do something like

-4 forces / dazes (play / draw)
-3 spell snare (only seems to be 3 targets total in their 75, they have all 3/4 drops)
-2 goyf (only if you can bring true name in)
+2 TNN
+3 pyroblast
+2/3 winter orb
+2 submerge

With the intention of bolting their 1 drops, pyroblasting / dazing their 3 drops, then dropping an orb on them after that.

EDIT: i'm still back and forth on bringing in ancient grudge. If going by reid duke's list I would think they are cutting their forces for 2nd jitte, truths, 2x submerge. Maybe 1 grudge gets sided in since if they land a jitte it would be nice to have some outs to that.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Ok, I see what you mean now. I guess it was just the timing of everything that made me attribute all this talk to fatal push.

To be fair, it was a thought experiment that started with "so what if Push becomes heavily played?" only it turned out that the idea was legit regardless of Push being a thing because of Decay and Bolt.


Its funny, right around the time you started making winter orb popular again I randomly stumbled across some MTG history articles such as the history of miracle gro. Winter orb used to be a 4 of in these lists, and I definitely wondered why that fell out of favor. I definitely think we can learn from the past and try to incorporate old cards that have fallen out of favor. The card I'm most interested in is Predict. Whether we need additional cards to run along side it, or how many we should run I am not sure.


I think people forgot Winter Orb because when people started messing with Canadian, around the time Tarmogoyf was printed, the meta had a lot of "aggro" decks, first Goblins then a bit later Merfolk and Zoo. The control deck, which Winter Orb would punish, was Landstill, but it was far from the popularity and power that Miracles currently has.

But Winter Orb is amazing against Goblins and Merfolk, that's what's confusing to me! As rlesko pointed out, there was Miracle Gro to work from, it really makes no sense that Winter Orb was ever dropped from this kind of deck. Almost every matchup that has ever been bad for Canadian is solved by Winter Orb (Stoneblade decks, Nic Fit, Vial decks...). Jund is a notable exception, but that's about it.



-4 forces / dazes (play / draw)
-3 spell snare (only seems to be 3 targets total in their 75, they have all 3/4 drops)
-2 goyf (only if you can bring true name in)
+2 TNN
+3 pyroblast
+2/3 winter orb
+2 submerge

With the intention of bolting their 1 drops, pyroblasting / dazing their 3 drops, then dropping an orb on them after that.

EDIT: i'm still back and forth on bringing in ancient grudge. If going by reid duke's list I would think they are cutting their forces for 2nd jitte, truths, 2x submerge. Maybe 1 grudge gets sided in since if they land a jitte it would be nice to have some outs to that.

I think it's reasonable to play this matchup like Aggro Loam. I think I would board out Stifles over free counters, but can't say for sure. Don't like Grudge and I'm probably boarding out Spell Pierce. Exact boarding depends on your 75, but Pyroblast is great, free counters are great, removal for their mana creatures is good, True-Name is better than Goyf, Winter Orb is deece although I think I would prefer Loam in Delverless. Boarding out Stifle allows you to play a little more aggressively.

[rlesko]

I think it's reasonable to play this matchup like Aggro Loam. I think I would board out Stifles over free counters, but can't say for sure. Don't like Grudge and I'm probably boarding out Spell Pierce. Exact boarding depends on your 75, but Pyroblast is great, free counters are great, removal for their mana creatures is good, True-Name is better than Goyf, Winter Orb is deece although I think I would prefer Loam in Delverless. Boarding out Stifle allows you to play a little more aggressively.

Its so hard for me to cut stifles against a 3 color deck that needs 3 or more mana to do anything relevant, but you could be right. I am admittedly speculating and haven't played this match up. On the other hand, the fact that we need to counter all their true names or pretty much lose (unless we already were ahead in the race and had a true name of our own) would favor a boarding plan that keeps all force of wills in.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Its so hard for me to cut stifles against a 3 color deck that needs 3 or more mana to do anything relevant, but you could be right. I am admittedly speculating and haven't played this match up. On the other hand, the fact that we need to counter all their true names or pretty much lose (unless we already were ahead in the race and had a true name of our own) would favor a boarding plan that keeps all force of wills in.

The same applies to Daze only that with Stifle, they know when they can cast their spells and it costs you mana. But you're right, it's close between the two. I tend to gravitate towards as many free counters as possible in most matchups.


By the way (!), I have finished uploading all the matches from the Legacy Challenge. If you only care little about the few lines I drop in the articles, you can go straight to the YouTube playlist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYN6KgKCp2HS6DMnikHa-FTh0ffrfz9AX). Otherwise, each blog post individually:

#theweeklywars #18 — February Legacy Challenge (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/17/theweeklywars-18-february-legacy-challenge/)

#thedailywars #2 — February Legacy Challenge Round Two vs. Miracles (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/18/thedailywars-2-february-legacy-challenge-round-two-vs-miracles/)

#thedailywars #3 — February Legacy Challenge Round Three vs. Belcher (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/thedailywars-3-february-legacy-challenge-round-three-vs-belcher/)

#thedailywars #4 — February Legacy Challenge Round Four vs. Grixis Delver (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/20/thedailywars-4-february-legacy-challenge-round-four-vs-grixis-delver/)

#thedailywars #5 — February Legacy Challenge Round Five vs. Grixis Midrange (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/thedailywars-5-february-legacy-challenge-round-five-vs-grixis-midrange/)

#thedailywars #6 — February Legacy Challenge Round Six vs. Miracles (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/24/thedailywars-6-february-legacy-challenge-round-six-vs-miracles/)

#thedailywars #7 — February Legacy Challenge Round Seven vs. Miracles (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/25/thedailywars-7-february-legacy-challenge-round-seven-vs-miracles/)

I'm going to have another one or two matches early next week (against D&T and Shardless, likely Tuesday and Wednesday), but after that, I'm done with Canadian content for a while. Well, until the next Legacy Challenge, probably haha

[Whitefaces]

My friend took down our monthly tournament in London with Dark Thresh yesterday, tournament roundup and decklist here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31416-London-Legacy-Monthly-Februaruy-GP-Clernkenwell&p=992985#post992985

[GoldenCid]

My friend took down our monthly tournament in London with Dark Thresh yesterday, tournament roundup and decklist here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31416-London-Legacy-Monthly-Februaruy-GP-Clernkenwell&p=992985#post992985

Is that rug or just bug?

[Whitefaces]

Is that rug or just bug?

BUG.

List for the lazy

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Deathrite Shaman

Spells (32)
4 Brainstrom
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stilfe
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Painful Truths

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Dread of Night
2 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod

[GoldenCid]

BUG.



But there is a BUG thread right?

[Jaytron]

But there is a BUG thread right?

I assume he posted it here because Dark "Thresh"

It isn't quite a Team America list either

[Whitefaces]

Yeah, check over the past few pages, this topic has been discussed already.

[wcm8]

J. Alexander's Delver-less RUG list is very easy to port over to BUG. You lose the versatility and power of Lightning Bolt, but in exchange get a new kind of versatility via Abrupt Decay.

18 Lands (3/3 Sea/Trop; 4 Waste; 8 Fetch)
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 BStorm
4 N. Mongoose
4 DRS
3 TNNemesis
1 Counterspell
4 Stifle
2 Spell Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember // Fatal Push (preferential and meta-dependent)
1 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam
1 Cabal Pit

Sideboard (rough draft):
3 Winter Orb
3 Duress
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dread of Night
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

I suppose if you think 4 DRS is too many, you could instead run Hooting Mandrills and/or Gurmag Angler, and/or run additional spells (I cut the 3rd Spell Snare and the singleton main deck Spell Pierce for room). Personally, I consider opening with a turn 1 DRS to be among the best things to do in Legacy.

[Whitefaces]

I think the main attraction of red is Pyroblast, not Lightning Bolt. Though Bolt (aka Time Walk) and Fatal Push are hard to compare in this deck too.

DRS has also been super underwhelming in the Dark Thresh build, I want to cut them completely but can't think of a good solution yet. Maybe just going to 8 threats is ok.

[Draggo]

Wasn't the whole point of the "Delverless"-build that you cancel out most of the common removals like Bolt/Push/Decay with your creature base? Using 4 Shamans will still attract all those removals instead of making them useless and thus giving some sort of card advantage.

If you go without Delver, might as well go without Shaman too. It's just a huge trade-off in tempo if you want a turn 1 thread into free counters and stuff against combo decks.

[blablub]

Wasn't the whole point of the "Delverless"-build that you cancel out most of the common removals like Bolt/Push/Decay with your creature base? Using 4 Shamans will still attract all those removals instead of making them useless and thus giving some sort of card advantage.

If you go without Delver, might as well go without Shaman too. It's just a huge trade-off in tempo if you want a turn 1 thread into free counters and stuff against combo decks.


This idea is floating around :D

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/579257#online

[echofish]

I can't grasp the idea of playing 4 mandrills with 4 goose in the same list. I guess Thought Scour makes it work.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Wasn't the whole point of the "Delverless"-build that you cancel out most of the common removals like Bolt/Push/Decay with your creature base? Using 4 Shamans will still attract all those removals instead of making them useless and thus giving some sort of card advantage.

If you go without Delver, might as well go without Shaman too. It's just a huge trade-off in tempo if you want a turn 1 thread into free counters and stuff against combo decks.

This. If you play Deathrite, there's no reason not to play Delver as well. Also refer to what Whitefaces said; not that I would go as far as calling Deathrite super underwhelming, but it's less impressive than Delver. Deathrite + Loam is really good.


I can't grasp the idea of playing 4 mandrills with 4 goose in the same list. I guess Thought Scour makes it work.

This is overstated a lot. Reaching Threshold is almost trivial, also one of the reasons why Deathrite as a threat vs. Canadian is heavily exaggerated.

[Whitefaces]

Also refer to what Whitefaces said; not that I would go as far as calling Deathrite super underwhelming, but it's less impressive than Delver. Deathrite + Loam is really good.

Maybe I'm overstating it a bit. But compared to my expectations I've been really surprised by how much I've disliked DRS in the deck.

[ptahetep]

Hi, I played some games with the great delver less rug list shared previously by Jonathan Alexander.
I substitute 1 TNN for 1 blurred mongoose and 1 sudden demise for a second surgical extraction due to budget consideration ( 40+ and 7 tix respectively) .

I played Miracle about 4times and the same amount of random mtgo brews.

Against Miracle, I really like when the blurred mongoose hits the board. Not having to plan to protect it means I can keep tnn for later and hold counters for sweeper.

It is an easy side out against pyromancer deck or creature heavy deck I think and it is obviously inferior to tnn but I taught I would share here anyway no matter how obvious this sounds. Thanks






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[haxorz]

Hi, I played some games with the great delver less rug list shared previously by Jonathan Alexander.
I substitute 1 TNN for 1 blurred mongoose and 1 sudden demise for a second surgical extraction due to budget consideration ( 40+ and 7 tix respectively) .

I played Miracle about 4times and the same amount of random mtgo brews.

Against Miracle, I really like when the blurred mongoose hits the board. Not having to plan to protect it means I can keep tnn for later and hold counters for sweeper.

It is an easy side out against pyromancer deck or creature heavy deck I think and it is obviously inferior to tnn but I taught I would share here anyway no matter how obvious this sounds. Thanks

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i understand you have budget concerns, and that's fine. but i want to point out two big issues:

(1) blurred mongoose isn't good vs miracles since it trades with snapcaster mage. one of the huge advantages of jonathan's list is that snapcaster does nothing. something like troll ascetic. would be better.
(2) you rarely want to be countering terminus vs miracles. rather, you want to save countermagic to win counter battles over counterbalance and mentor.

[Jonathan Alexander]

If you don't have the third True-Name, play a second Loam instead. It's a change I've wanted to try anyway. If you do that, I don't think a second Barbarian Ring over Sudden Demise is unreasonable either (another thing I've wanted to try, really not sure about the sideboard sweepers). Also what haxorz said about sweepers, after sideboarding, ignore them unless you have your opponent actually locked under Orb (zero untapped lands) and you have a good hand of countermagic. It's a little more tricky before sideboarding.

[Sceadugenga]

Hi all. Just getting into Legacy, longtime Modern UR/x Delver player. I've been playing a pretty standard Dark Thresh that I've been quite pleased with, locally. Miracles, Grixis Trix, Nic Fit, and Maverick are my regular opponents.

Creatures: 13
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 True-Name Nemesis

Instants: 24
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
1 Dismember

Sorceries: 4
4 Ponder

Lands: 19
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Watery Grave
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Make Obsolete
1 Painful Truths

With the exception of the second and third duals, I own everything in the list. At the moment, the second Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, and second and third Tropical Islands are shocklands, which would lose me serious percentage points were I to take the list to a larger event.

That said, I've loved this list against the decks I've faced. I'm glad that my SB plan against Miracles, from what I've read learning the format, seems to be getting attention again. Winter Orb and Pyroblast, True Names have been great against Miracles, siding out 4 Delvers, 3 Deathrite.

[ptahetep]

Thanks for the tips! I will try that.


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[ChemicalBurns]

Got ninth in a sixty-six person tournament in Melbourne Australia, with more traditional Canadian (RUG Delver) wrote a report:

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/03/15/the-goose-that-couldnt-go-the-distance-9th-at-duals-to-protect-the-jewels-with-canadian-threshold/

List felt very smooth and couldn't be too sad about it, happy to hear how I played poorly/sideboarded weirdly.

[Whitefaces]

Really enjoyed reading that report, thanks!

[Delver_gui]

So I will be taking the "Dark Thresh" to a few big tournaments in the near future, and was wondering if anyone is still doing any testing with it. I will provide my list and ask everyone that is still on this build to critique it. I am going into an unexpected Meta and would like to fine tune the build. Thanks and have a great day!!

4 delver
4 mongoose
3 deathrite
1 true name

4 BS
4 ponder
4 force
4 daze
2 spell snare
1 spell pierce
1 counterspell
2 abrupt decay
3 fatal push
2 painful truths
4 stifle

4 strand
4delta
1 mire
2 U sea
2 trop
1 bayou
4 wasteland

[kombatkiwi]

Got ninth in a sixty-six person tournament in Melbourne Australia, with more traditional Canadian (RUG Delver) wrote a report:

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/03/15/the-goose-that-couldnt-go-the-distance-9th-at-duals-to-protect-the-jewels-with-canadian-threshold/

List felt very smooth and couldn't be too sad about it, happy to hear how I played poorly/sideboarded weirdly.

Nice report!

Have you ever considered Flame Jab in the Barbarian Ring 'slot?' Still combines with Loam to kill a bunch of stuff / burn face:

Pros:
- Flips delver
- Doesn't care about how many cards are in your graveyard (e.g. to kill something on turn 1)
- Turns all your extra lands into Gut Shots

Cons:
- Sorcery-speed damage only
- Can't kill X/2s unless you commit more cards into it
- Doesn't add R to your mana pool
- Not Colorless

[CptHaddock]

Nice report!

Have you ever considered Flame Jab in the Barbarian Ring 'slot?' Still combines with Loam to kill a bunch of stuff / burn face:

Pros:
- Flips delver
- Doesn't care about how many cards are in your graveyard (e.g. to kill something on turn 1)
- Turns all your extra lands into Gut Shots

Cons:
- Sorcery-speed damage only
- Can't kill X/2s unless you commit more cards into it
- Doesn't add R to your mana pool
- Not Colorless

You forgot one of the biggest cons. It gets stopped by prelate and mom.

[kombatkiwi]

You forgot one of the biggest cons. It gets stopped by prelate and mom.


- Not Colorless

I admittedly didn't think about Prelate and I guess anything that interacts on the stack (CB, Chalice, etc although you probably wouldn't board FJ in against those decks).

Just different pros and cons depending on the matchup, if DnT is the main concern then I suppose Ring is probably stronger.

[rlesko]

Got ninth in a sixty-six person tournament in Melbourne Australia, with more traditional Canadian (RUG Delver) wrote a report:

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/03/15/the-goose-that-couldnt-go-the-distance-9th-at-duals-to-protect-the-jewels-with-canadian-threshold/

List felt very smooth and couldn't be too sad about it, happy to hear how I played poorly/sideboarded weirdly.

I wouldn't cut Goose vs D&T.

[ChemicalBurns]

I wouldn't cut Goose vs D&T.

I know some people love Goose vs. D&T, but I've found it lacklustre. Since your mana is crippled it's hard to hit Thresh effectively some of the time, and they don't really utilise removal to beat us - they use creatures blocking the road instead, the majority of which trade with Goose and hence demand you to have removal. RiP is typically boarded in from them too, and largely bricking it (sure, Mandrills and Loam get hit by an early RiP, but late-game ones aren't an issue as a single Loam resolution does enough and if Drills are already on the table RiP does nothing) is great.

I guess my question comes to what to to cut in this matchup then; Pierce, and Counterspell are the first to go, and the only ones up for contention are Stifle and the Force on the draw/Daze on the draw. But Daze is incredible as long as they don't have Vial.

I know lots of people have different plans against D&T, let's hear them out? I've been happy with mine so far.

[rlesko]

I know some people love Goose vs. D&T, but I've found it lacklustre. Since your mana is crippled it's hard to hit Thresh effectively some of the time, and they don't really utilise removal to beat us - they use creatures blocking the road instead, the majority of which trade with Goose and hence demand you to have removal. RiP is typically boarded in from them too, and largely bricking it (sure, Mandrills and Loam get hit by an early RiP, but late-game ones aren't an issue as a single Loam resolution does enough and if Drills are already on the table RiP does nothing) is great.

I guess my question comes to what to to cut in this matchup then; Pierce, and Counterspell are the first to go, and the only ones up for contention are Stifle and the Force on the draw/Daze on the draw. But Daze is incredible as long as they don't have Vial.

I know lots of people have different plans against D&T, let's hear them out? I've been happy with mine so far.

I want to stress that first and foremost, if you've had success with what you've been doing, its possible you should ignore what I'm about to say. Because play style is very important to side boarding plans and overall deck construction. I think Mandrills is not good vs them because it gets killed by swords to plowshares and rest in peace. I would like all my threats to beat either one of those cards. I agree 100% that spell pierce is out (not enough targets) and counterspell (possibly too demanding to leave up 1UU, possible they have vial, and possible they have cavern).

JonathanAlexander favors cutting stifles and leaving in all free countermagic (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/07/28/canadian-threshold-sideboarding-guide/), I've seen others cut forces / dazes but leave stifle. Jon would have to comment himself, but I suspect holding up stifle doesn't synergize well with his "play winter orb & shut down aether vial" sideboard plan for D&T.

And I know mongoose seems pathetic at times, but shroud is just such a powerful mechanic. Killing opponents while they look at their StP, Decay, etc. in their hands is so underrated because most of the times you won't really know it, and it can even feel bad from our perspective to beat down with a 1/1. FWIW the taxes players I have talked to have told me mongoose is more annoying for them than goyf.

[rlesko]

Can people share their aluren plans? As food for thought, I had some success bringing in

+1 lavamancer
+1 winter orb (1 main)
+1 TNN (1 main)
+2 ancient grudge
+2 pyroblast

-4 goose
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare (only running 2)

I favored siding out geese over delvers because I favored the evasion over shroud. Also, goyf gets absolutely huge in this match up and the upside of laying down a 6/7 goyf was too good for me to side him out. They just have so much value in the deck that a big goyf is one of the best way to end the game fast. I know I know abrupt decay kills delver and goyf...but with those cards, lavamancer, and the winter orbs, they can't kill everything.

I'm still getting a feel for how this match up goes. I've played some weird games where their namesake card resolves but I still win (kind of like weird sneak&show matches where they resolve a sneak attack, but all resources have been depleted in the process, and when they finally find an emrakul you stifle the annihilator trigger and counterswing for lethal). So I'm not sure if there is a viable strategy that entails allowing them to resolve an aluren intentionally and just trying to counter all their creatures...? I doubt it, but I'll kick the tires on pretty much any idea :laugh:

[fapsik]

Can people share their aluren plans? As food for thought, I had some success bringing in

+1 lavamancer
+1 winter orb (1 main)
+1 TNN (1 main)
+2 ancient grudge
+2 pyroblast

-4 goose
-1 dismember
-2 spell snare (only running 2)

I favored siding out geese over delvers because I favored the evasion over shroud. Also, goyf gets absolutely huge in this match up and the upside of laying down a 6/7 goyf was too good for me to side him out. They just have so much value in the deck that a big goyf is one of the best way to end the game fast. I know I know abrupt decay kills delver and goyf...but with those cards, lavamancer, and the winter orbs, they can't kill everything.

I'm still getting a feel for how this match up goes. I've played some weird games where their namesake card resolves but I still win (kind of like weird sneak&show matches where they resolve a sneak attack, but all resources have been depleted in the process, and when they finally find an emrakul you stifle the annihilator trigger and counterswing for lethal). So I'm not sure if there is a viable strategy that entails allowing them to resolve an aluren intentionally and just trying to counter all their creatures...? I doubt it, but I'll kick the tires on pretty much any idea :laugh:


Hi, I'm a long-time Aluren player and I will try to make some points.

1) It absolutely depends on what kind of Aluren the opponent is playing, because if he/she is playing Recruiter version the Spell Snares are great. They can counter Cavern Harpy when it is on the stack, before it bounces one of the main bouncers during combo (Arctic Merfolk, Quickling or Dream Stalker). It means you have onemana-stopcombo-card. If they are playing BUG Version without Recruiter it is less effective, but still - it can hit Cavern Harpy, Baleful Strix or Glint Nest-Crane. Do not underestimate this card as well as Pyroblasts. I would not side in Ancient Grudge, because it cannot stop the Recruiter Combo - it can help with the BUG version, ok, but I would consider them. Lavamancer and Winter Orb are just fine, but be careful that you need your mana active when fighting against Aluren, your opponent does not ;-)


2) As your creature plan goes, Aluren usually plays (as you mentioned) Abrupt Decays and Baleful Strix, so when I am playing it I don't care about Tarmogoyf. They also have many chump-blockers. I think you should board in all TNN, Aluren is not a fast combo and it doesn't play Wasteland. But I think you are on this plan. The Mongooses are fine, because you reduce their answers basically to Baleful Strix. But you can go either way.

3) First thing how to deal with Aluren is to know how break the combo in the middle (there are not many opportunities). And you do not want a resolved Aluren, if Aluren is on the table your chances to win are pretty much reduced, because the skilled opponent prepare the win-turn and if you tap wrong, you die on spot.

I do not want to be "over-smart", so take my notes as inspiration to thinking more than anything else :-)

[rlesko]

I should have specified I was facing the BUG version. The biggest problem is I have more cards I would like to bring in than board out. As you pointed out you can make many chump blockers and I find goyf, delver, and TNN to be better at swinging through them than mongoose.

Its not so much that spell snare is bad, but pyroblast counters everything snare does (glint nest, harpy, strix) and more (leovold, shardless agent, maybe clique), but can also destroy the cards if they are in play. I feel like I need the spell pierces for the Alurens but they are definitely lacking targets otherwise..

Grudge is absolutely essential vs strixes (baleful AND parasitic) + shardless because I will just run out of cards fast if I don't have efficient ways to deal with their value creatures. A nice 2 for 1 answer to combat their 2 for 1.

I understand how to "interrupt" the combo but as you said its almost impossible to do this effectively with an aluren in play.

Thank you for your thoughts, can you explain how most Aluren player would sideboard against stifle delver variants?

[fapsik]

I should have specified I was facing the BUG version. The biggest problem is I have more cards I would like to bring in than board out. As you pointed out you can make many chump blockers and I find goyf, delver, and TNN to be better at swinging through them than mongoose.

Its not so much that spell snare is bad, but pyroblast counters everything snare does (glint nest, harpy, strix) and more (leovold, shardless agent, maybe clique), but can also destroy the cards if they are in play. I feel like I need the spell pierces for the Alurens but they are definitely lacking targets otherwise..

Grudge is absolutely essential vs strixes (baleful AND parasitic) + shardless because I will just run out of cards fast if I don't have efficient ways to deal with their value creatures. A nice 2 for 1 answer to combat their 2 for 1.

I understand how to "interrupt" the combo but as you said its almost impossible to do this effectively with an aluren in play.

Thank you for your thoughts, can you explain how most Aluren player would sideboard against stifle delver variants?

Yes, against BUG version you have better options I must say, even Ancient Grudge does things - good things. But do not forget that single Grudge will never break the combo with Cavern Harpy and Parasitic Strix, if your opponent has it, you cannot stop it by killing either of creatures with single spell. That is what I meant by my point.


If I was playing against Stifle-Delver with Recruiter version, I would side in Carpet of Flowers which is essential strategy against you for obvious reasons. Then I would use discard spells because I want you to get rid of specific spells. And last, I must have answer to your fast Delver so Decay must be in (2-3 is enough). With BUG version I need Flusterstorms (or other cheap counterspells) and Carpet as well. The strategy is still the same, be fast (Carpet), have answer to a fast thread (mainly Delver, others are slow) and be prepared for a counter/burn war during your "big turn" using discard or counterspells.

I must say that Stifle version is one of the best Delver variants against Aluren - it is fast, it attacks your mana and it has multiple ways to disrupt my combo (including Stifle).

[rlesko]

Yes, against BUG version you have better options I must say, even Ancient Grudge does things - good things. But do not forget that single Grudge will never break the combo with Cavern Harpy and Parasitic Strix, if your opponent has it, you cannot stop it by killing either of creatures with single spell. That is what I meant by my point.


If I was playing against Stifle-Delver with Recruiter version, I would side in Carpet of Flowers which is essential strategy against you for obvious reasons. Then I would use discard spells because I want you to get rid of specific spells. And last, I must have answer to your fast Delver so Decay must be in (2-3 is enough). With BUG version I need Flusterstorms (or other cheap counterspells) and Carpet as well. The strategy is still the same, be fast (Carpet), have answer to a fast thread (mainly Delver, others are slow) and be prepared for a counter/burn war during your "big turn" using discard or counterspells.

I must say that Stifle version is one of the best Delver variants against Aluren - it is fast, it attacks your mana and it has multiple ways to disrupt my combo (including Stifle).

My strategy does not involve trying to stop the combo turn, as I will not have enough cards or mana to do such a thing. So I understand grudge doesn't do that. Its purpose is clearing the way so I can kill you before you resolve an Aluren, and cannot continually bounce shardless / strix for value with harpy.

Sounds like carpet of flowers is a big part of your plan. I don't have a clean way to answer that card, so that is an interesting thought going forward.

[CyrusCG]

Hey guys, I just finished up a 5-0 with Canadian Thresh online and thought I would write up a brief tournament report. This is my first report so I am open to feedback.

Starting with some background, I have been playing magic since 2004 and have always enjoyed agressive tempo decks, but didn't really get into legacy until last April. I started off playing Burn, before moving into UR Delver, and finally Grixis delver because it was the "best" delver deck. However, I have been unhappy playing it for the last year as Deathrite Shaman just really does not fit my play style. The deck never felt like tempo to me with the therapies and shaman, and although I have been enjoying LewisCBR's stifle list, I still felt like it was lacking something...

I have always liked big, dumb, green creatures, burning people out, destroying lands, and every aspect of the color blue. So I figured I would give Canadian a chance. My first league with the deck I was 3-1, before clicking through my attack step in my final match and punting the game away. I was a little tilted, but I figured 3-2 was still fine for a deck I had never played before, and so with a little salt, I decided to boot up my second ever league with Canadian Thresh.

I don't own Goyfs online, so I went with the following list:

18 Lands:
1 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

12 Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrils
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Grim Lavamancer

30 Other:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember

Sideboard:
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 Rough//Tumble
1 Fluster Storm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Price of Progress
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

A few thoughts on the decklist:

1) The Hooting Mandrils were exceptional all day, felt like they won me more games than any other card in the deck.
2) I was very unhappy with Grim Lavamancer, it felt like it was too slow and was doing the opposite of what the rest of the deck wanted to do.
3) I didn't love True-Name either, I just felt like I didn't want to be tapping out with this deck ever after turn 2, let alone even have three lands on the field at the same time. In the future I would like to play 2 goyfs over the True-Name and Lavamancer, maybe delegating both of them to the sideboard.
4) I see why people play multiple Dismembers, I haven't been on the other end of too many Gurmag Anglers but that card is hard to deal with.
5) The price in the sideboard was too cute. It is one of my favorite magic cards but I think I will be cutting it for an extra dismember moving forward.


Finally to the actual games, I will keep it brief because I feel like I have already written a ton and I am doing this mostly from memory.

Match 1: W(2-0) vs burraun on Grixis Delver

This is actually the opponent I clicked through my attack step the match before and lost, so I was happy I got to start off my league playing him.
My opponent seemed a little new to the deck, they kept therapying away my counterspells and playing into stifle/daze/spell pierce even with perfect info from probes.
Both games just ended with me stopping them from doing anything and beating down with Mandrils or Delvers.

Match 2: W (2-0) vs. m0ller on 4c Control

m0ller is a great player and a super nice guy. We both grind legacy leagues quite a bit so we chat quite a bit during the game.
Normally he is on miracles, and game 1 I don't think he shows me anything that hints otherwise as I completely stifle him out of the game and win with 5 attacks from a Hooting Mandrils.
So you can imagine my surprise when game 2 he leads off with turn 1 Underground Sea, Deathrite Shaman!
Thankfully I left in 1 bolt for the miracles matchup, and despite drawing both my Winter Orb and Null Rod, I am able to just keep him off 4c controls' clunky mana with wastelands and stifles and beat down with a Hooting Mandrils.

Match 3: W (2-1) vs JPA93 on Sneak & Show

Game 1 not knowing what my opponent is on I keep a slow hand with a brainstorm, a bolt, a mandrils, and 4 lands.
I end up drawing a daze but this is not enough to stop my opponent from powering through a Show and Telled Emrakul for the win.

Game 2 my hand is not great, but I remember it had a few cantrips and a delver. I figure my opponent will play around daze and spell pierce long enough for me to cantrip into pyroblast/flusterstorm/force and beat down with the delver.
My opponent ends up resolving a show and tell for Emrakul but they are at 5 so I attack with a Delver and 1/1 goose. When he blocks the delver I bolt his face to reach threshold and the goose hits for the rest of the damage.
Game 3: My hand was phenomenal with tons of counter magic, a fast clock, and a pithing needle for Sneak Attack.

This is my favorite matchup as Delver, and I usually find it very difficult to lose games two and three once you know what your opponent is on, I just feel like we attack them from every axis they don't want to be attacked on.

Match 4:W (2-0) vs FTI3 on BUG Delver
I'm pretty sure my opponent was on a delver variant of some sort. I don't remember much about these games except for the fact that I wastelanded him off a color both games and killed his deathrites while my creatures made quick work of his life total.

Match 5: W (2-1) vs Jidden on ANT

Game 1 I lose the die roll and my opponent t1 therapies away my force of will, I leave mana untapped to bluff a spell pierce off the top but my opponent disregards this and kills me on their second turn.

Game 2 I have a pretty bad hand, but luckily my opponent keeps a hand with discard and fast mana but doesn't draw into any business at all and I am able to beat down with a mandrils for lethal.

Game 3: This was definitely the most intense game of the night for me. My hand is great but lacks a fast clock. I have a fetch land, a daze, a stifle, a true name, a force of will, a surgical, and a spell snare. I decided to keep and hope to draw into either a cantrip or a delver, and am rewarded when my opponent turn 1 duresses away the snare and i draw a delver off the top which I then deploy.
Turn 2 my opponent cantrips I believe, I then flip the delver and start getting in for some damage.
I think on their turn 4 my opponent tries to Infernal Tutor (non hellbent) so I force it with 1 mana up. My opponent then flusterstorms the force, I stifle the storm trigger, daze the lone remaining copy, and then surgically extract the infernal tutor. They were working with perfect info from a probe I believe, but maybe thought I wouldn't want to waste my entire hand on a non-hellbent infernal tutor. It was the right call as they were holding a a ritual, a therapy, and a tendrils.
My opponent is not able to rebuild before the delver and a mongoose that decided to join the party beat him down.


Overall I am very happy with the deck, I am going to make a few changes but I think I may have found my new deck in legacy. Thanks for reading! Feel free to ask any questions on sideboarding, card choices, etc.

[Navsi]

I think on their turn 4 my opponent tries to Infernal Tutor (non hellbent) so I force it with 1 mana up. My opponent then flusterstorms the force, I stifle the storm trigger, daze the lone remaining copy, and then surgically extract the infernal tutor. They were working with perfect info from a probe I believe, but maybe thought I wouldn't want to waste my entire hand on a non-hellbent infernal tutor. It was the right call as they were holding a a ritual, a therapy, and a tendrils.

Why didn't you just daze the Tutor rather than daze/stifling the Flusterstorm? Same end result but you get to keep your Stifle, right?

[CyrusCG]

Why didn't you just daze the Tutor rather than daze/stifling the Flusterstorm? Same end result but you get to keep your Stifle, right?

Hmmm... You are right. Unless I am just misremembering the sequencing there that was a mistake on my part. Thank you for pointing that out.

[fapsik]

Hello,

yesterday I was playing Canadian Threshold in my LGS, the only Delver I am willing to play :-) here is my list, inspired by Sean Brown (https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/03/15/the-goose-that-couldnt-go-the-distance-9th-at-duals-to-protect-the-jewels-with-canadian-threshold)


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Life from the Loam
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Counterspell
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Dismember
4 Scalding Tarn

SB: 2 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Submerge
SB: 1 Barbarian Ring
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction


I went 3:1 with following games:

1) Miracles (2:1)
2) UR Delver (2:1)
3) Death and Taxis (0:2)
4) Miracles (2:0)


The deck was perfect. Hooting Mandrills and Nimble Mongoose were never in a collision. I always chose my path to win, pick one of the creatures and tried to finish the game. Each of them has its special value and with the Life from the Loam it was not so hard to fill the GY. By the way, Loam and Barbarian ring was cool :-) unfortunately I was expecting Reanimator, that are strongly present in our LGS, but never met one. The only change I am doing is replacing Grafdigger's Cage by Rough // Thumble to improve my DnT matchup. This is my key goal in few next days, to improve this very bad matchup.

I felt very comfortable when playing against Miracles (Winter Orb, Sulfuric Vortex, True-Name Nemesis, Pyroblast) which makes me want to play this deck even more. I am not sure if I did it right, but I sided out all my Delvers and Mandrills to make all their Swords to Plowshares useless. Maybe it was wrong, but I felt it was ok.

Wish you all nice day :-)

[ChemicalBurns]

Hello,

yesterday I was playing Canadian Threshold in my LGS, the only Delver I am willing to play :-) here is my list, inspired by Sean Brown (https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/03/15/the-goose-that-couldnt-go-the-distance-9th-at-duals-to-protect-the-jewels-with-canadian-threshold)

...


The deck was perfect. Hooting Mandrills and Nimble Mongoose were never in a collision. I always chose my path to win, pick one of the creatures and tried to finish the game. Each of them has its special value and with the Life from the Loam it was not so hard to fill the GY. By the way, Loam and Barbarian ring was cool :-) unfortunately I was expecting Reanimator, that are strongly present in our LGS, but never met one. The only change I am doing is replacing Grafdigger's Cage by Rough // Thumble to improve my DnT matchup. This is my key goal in few next days, to improve this very bad matchup.

I felt very comfortable when playing against Miracles (Winter Orb, Sulfuric Vortex, True-Name Nemesis, Pyroblast) which makes me want to play this deck even more. I am not sure if I did it right, but I sided out all my Delvers and Mandrills to make all their Swords to Plowshares useless. Maybe it was wrong, but I felt it was ok.

Wish you all nice day :-)

Glad the deck felt as smooth as butter as it has been for me, and glad my list served you well :) I wouldn't recommend Rough // Tumble to deal with the D&T problem. If anything an extra spot removal spell would be better - something along the lines of Forked Bolt/Electrickery/Sudden Shock/Fire//Ice or even an extra Ring.

Typically vs. Miracles indeed you should side out as many of your Plowable threats. I typically end up with a few Delvers left in, which either end up as Force food or can occasionally steal some games when you fully mana screw the opponent.

[fapsik]

Glad the deck felt as smooth as butter as it has been for me, and glad my list served you well :) I wouldn't recommend Rough // Tumble to deal with the D&T problem. If anything an extra spot removal spell would be better - something along the lines of Forked Bolt/Electrickery/Sudden Shock/Fire//Ice or even an extra Ring.

Typically vs. Miracles indeed you should side out as many of your Plowable threats. I typically end up with a few Delvers left in, which either end up as Force food or can occasionally steal some games when you fully mana screw the opponent.

I know you are DnT player, so I will take your advice very seriously :-) I love Fire / Ice, so maybe I will give a try...or Forked Bolt, which is insane sometimes. Thx.

[bamannov]

Got ninth in a sixty-six person tournament in Melbourne Australia, with more traditional Canadian (RUG Delver) wrote a report:

https://thesaltminesite.com/2017/03/15/the-goose-that-couldnt-go-the-distance-9th-at-duals-to-protect-the-jewels-with-canadian-threshold/

List felt very smooth and couldn't be too sad about it, happy to hear how I played poorly/sideboarded weirdly.

Really liked your report and congrats on the solid finish.

My questions/thoughts:
-Life from the Loam is absurd in so many matchups...I've been jamming this deck in our local Legacy scene for a couple weeks and my win percentage against delver decks and lands is insanely high when I cast this. What are your thoughts on a 2nd loam out of the board? It's really worked well for me.

-Along the same Life from the Loam topic....What are your thoughts on 2 Ghost Quarter out of the board? Against miracles it keeps them off white and against lands it's Wastelands 5-6.

-Main deck barbarian ring?

-I'm disappointed with Hooting Mandrills and I've been playing True-names main.

Maybe my findings above are biased based on our local metagame...

Also, going to GP Vegas..so would love to get anyone else's thoughts on the above...

Long time player....first time poster...

[fapsik]

Really liked your report and congrats on the solid finish.

My questions/thoughts:
-Life from the Loam is absurd in so many matchups...I've been jamming this deck in our local Legacy scene for a couple weeks and my win percentage against delver decks and lands is insanely high when I cast this. What are your thoughts on a 2nd loam out of the board? It's really worked well for me.

-Along the same Life from the Loam topic....What are your thoughts on 2 Ghost Quarter out of the board? Against miracles it keeps them off white and against lands it's Wastelands 5-6.

-Main deck barbarian ring?

-I'm disappointed with Hooting Mandrills and I've been playing True-names main.

Maybe my findings above are biased based on our local metagame...

Also, going to GP Vegas..so would love to get anyone else's thoughts on the above...

Long time player....first time poster...


could you post us your decklist? :)

[bamannov]

could you post us your decklist? :)

Here's my list. My meta game is mostly Grixis Delver, Lands, some Miracles, D&T, and some random stuff. Very little combo actually.

10 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 True-Name Nemesis

32 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
1 Forked Bolt
1 Dismember
1 Counterspell

18 lands
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest


SB:
3 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ghost Quarter
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Flusterstorm
1 Winter Orb
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sudden Demise
1 Pithing Needle

I would love feedback on the above and get people's thoughts on SB plans. Maybe I'm too "all-in" with Life from the Loam, but the amount I win when I cast it is pretty high.

I once beat a UW/b Miracles deck through an Ensnaring bridge simply by Wasteland/GQuarter locking them out of the game

I'll be at GP Vegas if anyone wants to hangout and share ideas...

[Jonathan Alexander]

No, you're correct, Loam is really good right now. I have 2 Loam 1 Ring main with an extra 2 Rings in the board at this point. I dislike Ghost Quarter. It takes too long for Quarter to actually do something against decks with basics. I'd much rather Orb them (Miracles) or Ring-lock them (all the other decks). I think Ring is superior to sweepers at this point.

If I were to play with Delver, I would probably run the same creature-suite as you do, just without the sideboard True-Name. I think it's somewhere between reasonable and good to have 2 Ring / 1 Loam against Miracles after sideboarding.

I played Dark Thresh at Eternal Weekend by the way. My list wasn't tuned well enough and I don't think it's reasonable to run a deck without Pyroblast if you want to win a Legacy tournament. It's definitely possible to squeeze Pyroblasts into the Dark Thresh sideboard though. Here's my list from the event, theorycrafted on Friday with HJ:

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

1 Life from the Loam
1 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Sideboard:
3 Winter Orb
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Cabal Pit
1 Life from the Loam
1 Painful Truths

[Nola]

Hi everyone!

First time writing, long time reading and playing.

First of all, I would like to say thank you for everyone, for all hard work you doing here. :)

I was a Infect player for a long time, but I'm not so happy with my results with the deck in my meta... So I've decide to change a "little". I became a Grixis/RUG Delver, and I have to say... WOW! :D

Every day I came here in search for new tips and advices, and I'm very happy to found some help with the deck I choose to play.

This week I played a little with some friends, and I would like to share some thoughts.

That's the list that I played:

4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Nimble Mongoose
2 x Hooting Mandrils

1 x Sylvan Library

4 x Ponder
1 x Life from the Loam

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Stifle
2 x Spell Pierce
1 x Spell Snare
1 x Counterspell
4 x Lightning Bolt
1 x Forked Bolt
1 x Dismember

4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Volcanic Island
4 x Wasteland

I've played against BR Reanimator, BG Depths and Maverick.

The deck performs really well agains all this 3 decks. We don't play with sideboards, by the way. I only lose one game for BG depths, and 1 match for the Maverick.

Ok, so here we go...

- I really love the Mandrils! They did a GREAT job! Every time a needed a creature, I wish it was a Mandrils. 4/4 trample for 1 green mana? I'll take it!
- The match that I lost for the Maverick, was for couldn't search some finishers. I felt that only have 10 creatures in the deck was a little poor. I'll go try 2 more TNN (even think the 3cmc is a little heavy for the deck style).
- I'll cut the Counterspell for another Spell Snare. Every time a had a CS in hands, I wish it was a Spell Snare. Holding the 2 mana open for a CS delayed me a little. Maybe a I should try a little more and buy the idea... But... I'll made this the change for a while.
- The only time I see Life from the Loam, he didn't help me as I wanted. Was against Maverick, in the match that I lost. Maybe against Mav., Loam doesn't shine as I wish.
- Sylvan Library is a must. I've always think that if you're in green, you have to play Library.
- I really would like to put in another Spell Pierce. Since we try to punish their mana base, I think Pierce can do a great job. Don't you think?

Ok, that is it!

Greetings from Brazil and sorry for the bad english :)

[fapsik]

Hi everyone!

First time writing, long time reading and playing.

First of all, I would like to say thank you for everyone, for all hard work you doing here. :)

I was a Infect player for a long time, but I'm not so happy with my results with the deck in my meta... So I've decide to change a "little". I became a Grixis/RUG Delver, and I have to say... WOW! :D

Every day I came here in search for new tips and advices, and I'm very happy to found some help with the deck I choose to play.

This week I played a little with some friends, and I would like to share some thoughts.

That's the list that I played:

4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Nimble Mongoose
2 x Hooting Mandrils

1 x Sylvan Library

4 x Ponder
1 x Life from the Loam

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
4 x Stifle
2 x Spell Pierce
1 x Spell Snare
1 x Counterspell
4 x Lightning Bolt
1 x Forked Bolt
1 x Dismember

4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Flooded Strand
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Volcanic Island
4 x Wasteland

I've played against BR Reanimator, BG Depths and Maverick.

The deck performs really well agains all this 3 decks. We don't play with sideboards, by the way. I only lose one game for BG depths, and 1 match for the Maverick.

Ok, so here we go...

- I really love the Mandrils! They did a GREAT job! Every time a needed a creature, I wish it was a Mandrils. 4/4 trample for 1 green, mana? I'll take it!
- The match that I lost for the Maverick, was for couldn't search some finishers at the deck. I felt that only have 10 creatures in the deck was a little poor. I'll go try 2 more TNN (even think the 3cmc is a little heavy for the deck style).
- I'll cut the Counterspell for another Spell Snare. Every time a had a CS in hands, I wish it was a Spell Snare. Holding the 2 mana open for a CS delayed me a little. Maybe a I should try a little more and buy the idea... But... I'll made this the change for a while.
- The only time I see Life from the Loam, he didn't help me as I wanted. Was against Maverick, in the match that I lost. Maybe against Mav., Loam doesn't shine as I wish.
- Sylvan Library is a must. I've always think that if you're in green, you have to play Library.
- I really would like to put in another Spell Pierce. Since we try to punish their mana base, I think Pierce can do a greta job. Don't you think?

Ok, that is it!

Greetings from Brazil and sorry for the bad english :)


Thank you for your sharing, everything counts :-)

I have only few comments:
- 10 creatures + 2 in sideboard is fine and the only question is what creature you wish to play in a certain situation. I think, that if you would play with sideboards, you would have been in a better position, because you could optimize your creature selection. The point in this deck is to pick a creature which opponent has a problem to deal with. That means, it stays longer and you do not need the other ones. But it needs testing, skill and sideboarding.

- Counterspell is one of the most interesting adds in last months to this deck. I agree that sometimes it sucks, but you have Brainstorm to send it away. In other matchups, it is all-star (Miracles etc.). It deck would not hold 2 copies, but one is fine and you should give it a chance :-)

- It is very necessary to see your sideboard to comment the deck as a whole. Sylvan Library is one of the best green cards ever printed, but it is a question, whether to put it in the maindeck. The same with the Loam - do you have Barbarian Ring in the SB? All these notes are dependent on your sideboard.¨


Bye to the Southern America :-)

[Nola]

Thank you for your sharing, everything counts :-)

I have only few comments:
- 10 creatures + 2 in sideboard is fine and the only question is what creature you wish to play in a certain situation. I think, that if you would play with sideboards, you would have been in a better position, because you could optimize your creature selection. The point in this deck is to pick a creature which opponent has a problem to deal with. That means, it stays longer and you do not need the other ones. But it needs testing, skill and sideboarding.

- Counterspell is one of the most interesting adds in last months to this deck. I agree that sometimes it sucks, but you have Brainstorm to send it away. In other matchups, it is all-star (Miracles etc.). It deck would not hold 2 copies, but one is fine and you should give it a chance :-)

- It is very necessary to see your sideboard to comment the deck as a whole. Sylvan Library is one of the best green cards ever printed, but it is a question, whether to put it in the maindeck. The same with the Loam - do you have Barbarian Ring in the SB? All these notes are dependent on your sideboard.¨


Bye to the Southern America :-)

Thanks for your reply :)

My sideboard plan is:

3 x Pyroblast
2 x TNN
2 X Surgical Extraction
1 x Null Rod
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Winter Orb
1 x Sulfur Elemental
1 x Ancient Grudge
1 x Forked bolt
1 x Barbarian Ring

I agree with the point that if I played with SB, and put in the 2 TNN, maybe I'll don't miss some finishers in the matchup. My fault.

About the Counterspell, I'll give another try. I agree that in the Miracles mtachup, this could be a good one.

Yeap. I have a Barbarian Ring in the SB. But if I cut the Loam from the MD, I'll cut de Barbarian Ring from the SB too.

And about the Library? Any thoughts?

[fapsik]

Thanks for your reply :)

My sideboard plan is:

3 x Pyroblast
2 x TNN
2 X Surgical Extraction
1 x Null Rod
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Flusterstorm
1 x Winter Orb
1 x Sulfur Elemental
1 x Ancient Grudge
1 x Forked bolt
1 x Barbarian Ring

I agree with the point that if I played with SB, and put in the 2 TNN, maybe I'll don't miss some finishers in the matchup. My fault.

About the Counterspell, I'll give another try. I agree that in the Miracles mtachup, this could be a good one.

Yeap. I have a Barbarian Ring in the SB. But if I cut the Loam from the MD, I'll cut de Barbarian Ring from the SB too.

And about the Library? Any thoughts?


I undestrand your local metagame choices, but generally I would see these changes in your mind:

- cut the MD Library and add one more Spell Snare
- cut the second Extraction in SB (one is usually enough together with the counterspells) and Pithing Needle to add the Library and I would add another Winter Orb, which one of the best SB cards

But all these details depends on your style and preferences, and on the local metagame of course :-)

[kennyxviii]

Hey friends,

Death & Taxes/Punishing Jund player checking in here. After acquiring Force of Wills I'm looking at building a blue deck of some kind, and the tempo thresh playstyle really appeals to me. Is there a reason to play RUG Delver over the Stifle BUG builds in the current meta? For reference, my local meta consists of Miracles, Lands, BUG Delver, True-Name/Leovold BUG, BR Reanimator, ANT, and a smattering of a ton of other decks. Also, is there a more recent or more accurate primer that I should look at over the one at the top of the first page? I've just got a ton of questions and I feel like a recent primer would be the best place to get them answered.

Cheers!

[fapsik]

Hey friends,

Death & Taxes/Punishing Jund player checking in here. After acquiring Force of Wills I'm looking at building a blue deck of some kind, and the tempo thresh playstyle really appeals to me. Is there a reason to play RUG Delver over the Stifle BUG builds in the current meta? For reference, my local meta consists of Miracles, Lands, BUG Delver, True-Name/Leovold BUG, BR Reanimator, ANT, and a smattering of a ton of other decks. Also, is there a more recent or more accurate primer that I should look at over the one at the top of the first page? I've just got a ton of questions and I feel like a recent primer would be the best place to get them answered.

Cheers!

Hi,

first - if you want to get to the idea of current Canadian Threshold, look here: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/07/11/2016-canadian-threshold-primer/ -- the author also writes about other shifts in this deck. Even about Dark Thresh: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/02/10/theweeklywars-17-an-elf-a-human-and-a-mongoose-walk-into-a-bar/


I have been playing both RUG and BUG Threshold decks and I have comments for you:

- BUG colors bring you Deathrite Shaman, Fatal Push, Painful Truths and Abrupt Decay, which are the most imporant adds. These three colors tends to be more controlish and midrangy and you must count with it. It is the way they are.

- RUG colors gives you Lightning Bolt and Pyroblasts/REB. The Bolt is sometimes taken as replaced by Fatal Push, but the possibility of shooting to player is unreplaceable in this kind of tempo deck. Also the Blasts gives you great answers to Jace and to other blue cards, including their Force of Will, True-Name Nemesis and so on.

- But the main point is: you should choose whatever you wish to play and try it. Each version is bind with a style and strategy. It cannot be decided by theory, but by practice.


have fun!
f.

[gotchadanno]

Any tips to the DnT matchup? Here is the list I am currently running.

// 60 Maindeck
// 11 Creature
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Hooting Mandrills
1 True-Name Nemesis

// 25 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember

// 6 Sorcery
4 Ponder
2 Forked Bolt

// 18 Land
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta





SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Submerge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry

[kennyxviii]

I currently own 73 of the 75 I would like to play. I'm just missing 1 Volcanic Island and 1 Tropical Island from the manabase. What do you folks recommend in their place? Is it better to run basic Islands (Wasteland-proof, fine to Daze with) or shocklands for more access to red and green?

[kombatkiwi]

I currently own 73 of the 75 I would like to play. I'm just missing 1 Volcanic Island and 1 Tropical Island from the manabase. What do you folks recommend in their place? Is it better to run basic Islands (Wasteland-proof, fine to Daze with) or shocklands for more access to red and green?

Shocklands; any game in which you draw basic island you need 2 more lands in play to get red and green mana and this downside generally outweighs the moon-proof / waste-proof upside.

[Deadeye_Mongoose]

How do you guys think the Top ban will affect us?

I was running multiple winter orbs and spell snares before; thinking about switching most of those for DRS hate and maybe more combo hate.

[Scordata]

How do you guys think the Top ban will affect us?

I was running multiple winter orbs and spell snares before; thinking about switching most of those for DRS hate and maybe more combo hate.


Outside of one of the more interesting matchups having left the field, it's going to be hard to predict how decks will evolve to fill vacuum that is terminus.
I'd expect a rise in combo and aggro decks, so things like cursed totem and rough/tumble in the board probably buys you more value.

The strength of nimble mongoose is directly proportional to StP - it's probably safe to trim 1-2 of the guys to try out new things.
SCM and clique are debatable, but probably useful in the right rooms. Burn #7-8, or a bounce spell can be great as well.

I think the meta will end up settling with an attrition deck (bug/food chain), combo deck (storm/gy), and a aggro deck (elves/goblins). SB accordingly.

[LewisCBR]

I think for the short term, Strix and DRS will run rampant, so i dont think this will make RUG great again... Maybe years down the road there will be a DRS ban, then we can all party in the street.

An uptick in combo (which i dont know why this will happen, but a lot of people seem to think it will), is great for RUG.

Already, the best way to combat Miracles was Chalice and Combo, so i'm not sure why people think both those type of deck will suddenly go nuts...

[wcm8]

Seems like there may be an uptick in small creature decks that were weak to Miracles (e.g. Elves, Maverick, Stoneforge variants, possibly even stuff such as Zoo, Goblins, Merfolk, etc.). Wouldn't Grim Lavamancer be worth considering again? Obviously he's a non-bo with Nimble Mongoose, but you can make adjustments to mitigate the issue (e.g. Thought Scour). Alternatively, Forked Bolt is really good in a metagame full of small creatures.

Years ago, I was a big fan of playing RUG with 3 Chain Lightning and 3-4 Spell Snare in the flex slots. Having lots of Burn helped close out games that your creatures couldn't manage, and Spell Snare was fantastic at answering the majority of problem cards in the format. It may be worth going back to that if UWx Control adopts Stoneforge Mystic.

Of course, Spell Snare is weak against Sneak and Show (which will continue to be the format's premiere combo deck), but RUG is fairly well situated against that deck thanks to its sideboard Flusterstorms and Pyroblasts.

Deathrite Shaman still presents a problem for RUG, but it's not nearly as big of a problem as Miracles.format was. RUG simply needs to run more removal. Grixis *might* be the superior tempo deck, but Mongoose especially is good against a format that's leaning on Swords to Plowshares. I guess we'll just have to see how the format shakes up. Good riddance to Top, Terminus, Counterbalance, and Entreat the Angels!

[gotchadanno]

I feel like this gives the Loam/Barbarian Ring package a nice boost. Ive been maining 2 loam 1 ring with 1 ring in the side and i feel better about it now. Gonna stock up on forked bolts now for sure too. Not sure if cutting Spell Snare is correct but i want at least 2 maybe even 3 forked bolt in the 75.

[Shoe555]

Any thoughts on dropping Mongoose entirely and going toward a build closer to Gianluca Gazzola's top 8 list from Prague last year?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/430198#online

Don't get me wrong, I love Goose. It WAS the reason to play the deck - but is it still? It was our trump card against Miracles, and yes, with Terminus gone, it's even harder to kill now than before. But is it worth it if we're just going to sit down across from DRS piles for the foreseeable future?

What if we sideline Goose entirely and put in some combination of resilient late game threats (which was always the goal with Goose anyway) and maindeck Grim Lavamancers (which no longer needs to fight for graveyard fuel AND is superb at killing DRS and other small creatures).

Lastly - because we no longer run Mongoose, can we maybe justify putting a Jitte in the sideboard? A 4 mana sorcery speed investment that gets blanked by removal isn't great, but we all know how well a Jitte can run away with a game, especially if we say, strap it to a TNN. Just a thought.

Here's a rough draft of a decklist:

4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Grim
2 TNN/Mandrills

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Bolt
2 Flex removal
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle
2 Pierce
2 Snare

18 lands

Meta-dependent sideboard, but worth testing Jitte here I think.

[Jonathan Alexander]

From what I have seen, Nimble Mongoose is definitely not something I want to cut. I'm not sure if I want to cut my Orbs; there's a decent amount of Swords + Snapcaster decks still. There is a lot of Storm, so room should likely be made for sideboard Null Rod. Grixis appears to be the second most common deck; so I'm not opposed to playing all creatures that don't die to Bolt. I have not played against Decay and Push a lot, maybe Tarmogoyf is reasonable. Elves seems to be common, but I have only faced it once in 7 leagues, whereas others have report a bigger presence. Maybe you want sweepers vs. them, maybe LoamPit is good enough. If Maverick is making a comeback, I want Submerges again. Adding an extra removal spell to the maindeck is not unreasonable (7 total, maybe also LoamRing).

(I have not played Canadian yet in this format because it's not proactive enough to play at this point.)

[Lockeid]

Hey,
I'm a Maverick player, with the deck mosty finished, but I also have almost no expensive staples outside of Maverick like FoW or duals.
Canadian Threshold is a deck that I've been eyeing for quite some time, and that I'd like to buy over time.

Given that I have no U dual land, cards like Daze don't work quite as well, so buying the core of the deck without the duals doesn't seem like a great idea.
How would you suggest I buy over time, and do you think that a version without duals is playable ?

[Hanni]

Hey,
I'm a Maverick player, with the deck mosty finished, but I also have almost no expensive staples outside of Maverick like FoW or duals.
Canadian Threshold is a deck that I've been eyeing for quite some time, and that I'd like to buy over time.

Given that I have no U dual land, cards like Daze don't work quite as well, so buying the core of the deck without the duals doesn't seem like a great idea.
How would you suggest I buy over time, and do you think that a version without duals is playable ?

Get the manabase first. The lands open you up to be able to play tons of other decks should things change in the future. You also can't go wrong with staples like Force of Will.

[Shoe555]

Update on the theory post from yesterday: I ran a version of this through a league and managed to go 3-2, beating three decks containing DRS (4c Delver, Elves, and Food Chain), and losing to Manaless Dredge and RB Reanimator. Some numbers still need some tinkering, but if anyone is interested, the full list and stream archive can be found here. (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/138327945)


Any thoughts on dropping Mongoose entirely and going toward a build closer to Gianluca Gazzola's top 8 list from Prague last year?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/430198#online

Don't get me wrong, I love Goose. It WAS the reason to play the deck - but is it still? It was our trump card against Miracles, and yes, with Terminus gone, it's even harder to kill now than before. But is it worth it if we're just going to sit down across from DRS piles for the foreseeable future?

What if we sideline Goose entirely and put in some combination of resilient late game threats (which was always the goal with Goose anyway) and maindeck Grim Lavamancers (which no longer needs to fight for graveyard fuel AND is superb at killing DRS and other small creatures).

Lastly - because we no longer run Mongoose, can we maybe justify putting a Jitte in the sideboard? A 4 mana sorcery speed investment that gets blanked by removal isn't great, but we all know how well a Jitte can run away with a game, especially if we say, strap it to a TNN. Just a thought.

Here's a rough draft of a decklist:

4 Delver
4 Goyf
2 Grim
2 TNN/Mandrills

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Bolt
2 Flex removal
4 Daze
4 Force
4 Stifle
2 Pierce
2 Snare

18 lands

Meta-dependent sideboard, but worth testing Jitte here I think.

[Lockeid]

Sadly that was what I was expecting, and it probably means not playing it for quite a while since I'd probably be needing at the very least one of each (and likely more than that) which is quite an investment, which I wanted to do over time while still being able to play the deck a bit.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Yo, 'sup guys? I've had an itch to play Canadian again in the new format and I quite enjoyed it. I'm back to recording videos and the second league I played was with an updated, unusual version of Canadian. The YouTube playlist (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYN6KgKCp2HSsYQypHaRaYlOqIKMbAQHh) will be updated with new matches each day for the rest of week. If you'd like to see more content with Canadian or Dark Thresh, definitely let me know and I might just record another batch of videos.

In case you just want the list, this is what I played:

1 Engineered Explosives

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Hooting Mandrills

4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

1 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder

//Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 Trygon Predator
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Duress

[ptahetep]

Nice

This looks interesting can't wait to watch this in action!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JackaBo]

I like that trygon predator

[keys]

Update on the theory post from yesterday: I ran a version of this through a league and managed to go 3-2, beating three decks containing DRS (4c Delver, Elves, and Food Chain), and losing to Manaless Dredge and RB Reanimator. Some numbers still need some tinkering, but if anyone is interested, the full list and stream archive can be found here. (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/138327945)

Lavamancer does seem really good in the new metagame. When Innistrad first came out I played a standard Canadian Thresh list subbing Delver for Mongoose, plus 2 Lavamen in the old flex slots that used to be Cliques. I'd probably add 1 or 2 TNN to the creature suite as well, now.

[Zombie]

Trygon Predator? What is this, Vintage? :D

[keys]

Trygon Predator? What is this, Vintage? :D

I suppose it's good at sniping equipment and Chalices while getting in for some extra points of damage, but I'm not sure it's better than Grudge when you don't have Moxen and shops pieces to eat.

[gotchadanno]

im confused why mongoose is being cut now?

[MrFrowny_]

im confused why mongoose is being cut now?

People don't want to run Mongoose because Deathrite Shaman is running rampant now and it becomes hard for players to achieve threshold when DRS is eating your graveyard the whole game.

[Malakai]

People don't want to run Mongoose because Deathrite Shaman is running rampant now and it becomes hard for players to achieve threshold when DRS is eating your graveyard the whole game.


Indeed, this is why people are doing it, but it's not a good reason to cut Nimble Mongoose. Instead, it's a good reason to play more removal. Our mana denial deck does not want a mana dork in play. You're not likely to win games where they have a Deathrite active the entire time.

[Jonathan Alexander]

That is not why I cut them.

[tescrin]

I was debating testing with Harsh Mentor in Gooses' place. trying it in stifle grixis at the moment, but I think the forcing of fetching/DRS activations will get some damage through (and it frees your own removal up if you want them to keep activating DRS, though I don't know if that's wise..)

I do like the Grim plan, and could also see it if the deck moved to 2-3 Grim, 2 Snap, and just started burning people/players a bit more. Mandrills seems fine since it dodges everything but Plow; but I'm just not big on a dude who is smaller than Goyf being a non-evasive on-the-ground beater. he gets around TNN, which is nice, but that almost makes him a sideboard card.

Swiftspear has mild potential too I think; given that she gets passed 70% of the format with a single spell.

[rlesko]

It's not solely because of deathrite. It's because of deathrite, true name, baleful strix, leovold, eldrazi, etc., but most importantly, lack of miracles in the format. Just not the right meta for the goose.

[Jonathan Alexander]

All these cards are in decks Mongoose is great against, it's more about the stupid combo decks that you want Deathrite and fast beatz against.

[rlesko]

I'm not sure if it is a play style thing or not (or perhaps a metagame thing), but my win rate is significantly lower with mongoose (post miracles banning). Without miracles I have been having greater success playing a full suite of goyfs (which strix pumps to be 5 power) and true names.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Interesting that you say you like Goyf, first time I've heard that in a while. I'm gonna try a Delver/Mandrills/True-Name split when I find the time, that looks promising in the current metagame as you get fast beats, evasion and hard to kill creatures all at the same time.

In other news, my YouTube playlist playing the Deathrite version is now complete: Click. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYN6KgKCp2HSsYQypHaRaYlOqIKMbAQHh)

[gotchadanno]

Interesting that you say you like Goyf, first time I've heard that in a while. I'm gonna try a Delver/Mandrills/True-Name split when I find the time, that looks promising in the current metagame as you get fast beats, evasion and hard to kill creatures all at the same time.

In other news, my YouTube playlist playing the Deathrite version is now complete: Click. (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYN6KgKCp2HSsYQypHaRaYlOqIKMbAQHh)

im interested in seeing a list with that split. no goose?

[maharis]

I played a stock list with the following changes:

-4 Goose +2 Mandrills +1 TNN +1 Clique

Flex slots: 2 Dismember, 1 forked bolt, 1 chain lightning, 2 spell pierce

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Harsh Mentor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Standstill
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pithing Needle

I agree that Goose is in a tough spot right now but I didn't play against any DRS decks to really see if my build was good. I tilted toward more removal, there's a decent amount of combo locally but force+daze+stifle+pierce is still a lot in game 1.

1-2 Show & Tell (I couldn't flip a delver to go with my Mandrills when he was at 3 life with an Emrakul. I stifled the annihilator trigger to go to 1 and get him on crackback, but he had dispel.)
2-1 D&T (game 1 was a predictable disaster, game 2 I got jitte on clique when he had RIP out vs. my goyf, game 3 i ripped sulfur elemental off the top when i was about to die to several flickerwisps)
2-0 BR reanimator (game 1 I had force game 2 he mulled to 4 and I had wasteland + stifle)
2-1 Big Red (game 1 I had force, game 2 he got chalice into chandra, game 3 he drew a lot of lock pieces and no action and Goyf went the distance)

Didn't get a chance to stick a Mentor, I brought it in for D&T but he never surfaced. Probably could be Lavamancer and just as good. But again, didn't play a lot of fair decks so not sure what to expect yet. I really have trouble deciding on Clique or TNN, I feel like I always want to play at instant speed with this deck but TNN just ends the game if you can stick one.

[Jonathan Alexander]

im interested in seeing a list with that split. no goose?

Still trying to figure it out, not sure where to take that list. Ironically, I did record a league with Mongoose/Mandrills today:

//Creature
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

//Sorcery
2 Chain Lightning
2 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Destructive Revelry
SB: 2 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 1 Barbarian Ring
SB: 2 Gemstone Caverns
SB: 1 Pyroclasm


While recording, an interesting scenario came up that I unfortunately failed to identify as interesting, so I'm gonna share it here:

https://scontent.ftxl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18485968_1726198027398087_735242066589661967_n.jpg?oh=86bbeab4ced6592f387ae36f211d7a0a&oe=597A568B

What's the play?

[tescrin]

That's a toughy, knowing the decklist. If he was Goyf, it's counter it, drop a goyf. At 4/4 the mandrils are too small to survive a double block, meaning that even if he sac'd his goose (why would he?) the best you could do is trade boardstates.

Him being on 1-land seems good though. You're still stuck until you get another dude but at least he's potentially locked and is lacking whatever card was in his hand. Also, given his board state, he's casting a CDA spell; may let him have it and hope it locks him. (He loses Smallpox, dude, land, card, you lose card, dude land, and the card you lose is the one you would use anyway.)

The only thing about letting it resolve is that you're stuck taking another hit of 4 life, putting you at 5; meaning if you don't find a second dude before he does, you lose for sure.

[bamannov]

Still trying to figure it out, not sure where to take that list. Ironically, I did record a league with Mongoose/Mandrills today:

//Creature
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Barbarian Ring
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

//Sorcery
2 Chain Lightning
2 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Destructive Revelry
SB: 2 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Forest
SB: 1 Barbarian Ring
SB: 2 Gemstone Caverns
SB: 1 Pyroclasm


While recording, an interesting scenario came up that I unfortunately failed to identify as interesting, so I'm gonna share it here:

https://scontent.ftxl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18485968_1726198027398087_735242066589661967_n.jpg?oh=86bbeab4ced6592f387ae36f211d7a0a&oe=597A568B

What's the play?

When I first saw this, I would snap play spell snare, but I didn't consider him losing a card in hand and a land.

After thinking through this more, I would still counter with SpellSnare it as it seems like you want as many creatures as possible. Trading mongoose for Zombie isn't good.

It would be a more interesting if the pox enabled you to cast the Mandrills....tougher situation.

[Ralf]

I'd bet this involve drawing into Tabernacle. Leaving your opponent with 1 mana and a choice to be made at his next upkeep to deal with your mandrill.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Okay, first off, all my matches with Jonadian have been uploaded to YouTube now: #thedailywars #23-27 — Complete Jonadian Threshold League Playlist (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2017/05/25/thedailywars-23-27-complete-jonadian-threshold-league-playlist/)

As for the scenario I posted above, I think I'm going to discuss it in full detail alongside some other scenarios on my blog, but for now let me just say that I think it would have been correct to let Smallpox resolve and discard Spell Snare to it, as bad as that seems at first glance. You're trading the Snare for Smallpox anyway and with the stalled board, it's pretty much like you're trading Mongoose for one of their Zombies as well. You would gladly trade one of your Volcanics for one of their lands and at that point I think 5 life is a reasonable price to pay for their last card in hand. In short, I think Smallpox is an unfavourable trade for the Reanimator player in this instance.

[Raticate_Tail]

So with miracles back in the mix, and the format not looking as deathrite saturated as I had previously predicted, I am interested in sleeving up canadian again. Some things that I have experienced in deckbuilding:

1) I hate playing more than 6 removal spells main, but obviously deathrite NEEDS to die
2) I am super interested in having access to rough//tumble atm
3) I like having access to diverse threats, much like grixis delver
4) I don't think spell snare is all that important right now. It is not good against one of the premier combo decks of the format, is really poor against the premier delver deck and we don't have cb to worry about anymore.

Tonight I tried this out:

MD

2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle
1 Life from the Loam

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

SB

1 Nimble Mongoose
1 True Name Nemesis
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Rough//Tumble
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Snare
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge

The major change here is the creature mix and the presence of 2 preordains in the maindeck.

I could never really find a mix of creatures/removal/counterspells I loved so I figured I would just try jamming more cantrips. I was impressed overall with the preordains tonight. The increased ability to find the cards you need makes up for having less individual copies of each card, and also lets us free the goose earlier. It also makes your sideboard a decent amount better if you can manage to keep the preordains in. I built the sideboard in 5 minutes but I am certain I want the 3 copies of rough tumble and the spread of creatures in the side. I ended up doing a lot of tweaking post board, and ended up using every sideboarded creature at least once. Also, there's a lot of reanimator in my meta, so 3 surgicals is likely overkill in general.

Am I crazy? Has anyone tried anything along these lines recently? Let me know what you all think.

[Raticate_Tail]

Hey all, checking in with another 3-0 weekly with my preordain list. I played this tonight:

MD

2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island

4 Wasteland
4 Stifle

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
2 Tarmogoyf
1 True Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain

SB

1 Nimble Mongoose
1 True Name Nemesis
1 Tarmogoyf
3 Rough//Tumble
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge

Played against grixis delver (therapy), elves and burn, going 6-0 in games. Preordain (and the mixed bag of creatures in the sideboard) continued to overperform in the list. This week the tension between preordain/ponder+brainstorm and fetchlands came up a little more, but not to a point where it really affected my games greatly. This is my second 3-0 in a row with the list, and although both were just weeklies, the decks were all at least tiered decks.

[jattra]

Hey all, checking in with another 3-0 weekly with my preordain list.

...

Played against grixis delver (therapy), elves and burn, going 6-0 in games. Preordain (and the mixed bag of creatures in the sideboard) continued to overperform in the list. This week the tension between preordain/ponder+brainstorm and fetchlands came up a little more, but not to a point where it really affected my games greatly. This is my second 3-0 in a row with the list, and although both were just weeklies, the decks were all at least tiered decks.

Congrats.
Can I ask for more details about the burn match?