Noble Fish

[Bahra]

http://i.imgur.com/Fo7ylpJ.jpg
Noble Fish

Table of Contents

I. The Name and Legacy Origin
II. The Deck
III. The Plan
IV. The Cards
V. The Match Ups
VI. The Sideboarding
VII. The Results


I. The Name

The name "Noble Fish" originates from vintage. Where Mike Noble came up with a Bant colored "Fish" deck that uses small disruptive creatures to beatdown and disrupt the opponents gameplan. This deck featured no actual merfolk, but it did feature 4 Noble Hierarchs.

In one of my streams I decided that I wanted to build a Legacy deck to utilize Edric, Spymaster of Trest because the ability of drawing cards when you deal damage is inherently powerful and it shouldn't be too hard to abuse such an ability. More on how I build the deck in the section IV. The Cards. It was pointed out in that stream that the deck was similar to the vintage deck "Noble Fish" and also similar to the Vintage deck "BUG Fish" that took 1st in the Bazaar of Moxen 8 and that actually played 1 copy of Edric, Spymaster of Trest. So it seemed obvious to name the deck "Noble Fish".

II. The Deck

The original decklist as played to a record of 14-2 through 4 daily events on Magic Online

Lands (20):

4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
3x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Forest
1x Island

Creatures (21):

4x Judge's Familiar
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2x Looter il-Kor
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Mother of Runes

Non-creature spells (19):

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Sideboard:

3x Envelop
2x Spell Pierce
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Arcane Laboratory


III. The Plan

You're looking to play a tempo game. Like a Delver deck you're looking to pressure your opponent enough early that they are forced to play into your soft counterspells, unlike a Delver deck you're not looking to pressure your opponents life total early, instead you're applying pressure on the card advantage axis. You're threatening to bury your opponent in card advantage, be it with raw card advantage engines Edric, Spymaster of Trest and/or Sword of Fire and Ice or a different kind of card advantage, with Umezawa's Jitte counters. So you get ahead early with acceleration in the form of Noble Hierarch or simply just play cheaper threats than the opponent. Then find your spot to land Edric, Spymaster of Trest and take over the game from there. The extra cards drawn from Edric, Spymaster of Trest allows you to overpower and bury your opponent with cheap threats, soft counterspells and removal.

IV. The Cards

4 Judge's Familiar

So this guy has won 2x Pro tours already, albeit in a slightly less powerful format this guy is to be taken seriously. What this card offers is that it provides cheap disruption, setting your opponent back a turn on instants and sorceries is already decent. It flies, helping us get through with Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice which can be hard against certain decks like Elves and Death and Taxes. The evasion also means that once Edric, Spymaster of Trest is on the board this guy is going to be drawing an extra card a turn.

All these arguments might seem weak when you look at the actual card: 1/1 flyer for 1 that sacs to counter an insant or sorcery unless its controller pays 1. So lets look at an important example of where this guy can potentially win the game.

Your turn 1 play is Judge's Familiar, opponent goes land + Delver. It's your turn 2 now you can resolve any spell through 1 Daze or 1 Force of Will. Resolving a game winning Stoneforge Mystic is a common way to take advantage of this.

Judge's Familiar means that if your opponent ever taps out all his free counterspells are essentially dead and you're free to do whatever you want, and not tapping out is usually not something a common legacy deck can afford to if it's to keep track with your board development.

Against dredge Judge's Familiar is basically a hard counter to whatever they're casting. This is most obviously true against manaless dredge, but with 4x Wastelands and LED dredge playing Gemstone Mine, it'll be a hard counter vs. them most of the time as well. When you consider that Judge's Familiar sacrifices as part of the cost, it means that you always have an out to Bridge from Below and you get to remove all the Bridge from Below in response to a Dread Return before the Zombie Tokens would enter play, resulting in 0 Zombies for the dredge player.

These are some examples of Judge's Familiar being truly great, and this is examples where only the sacrifice ability was relevant! Add to it that it carries Jitte and draws cards with Edric and we have a very solid role player for the deck.

The only downsides with Judge's Familiar is the obvious anti-synergy between Daze and Judge's Familiar. If your opponent is already playing around the Familiar, the daze you have in hand is not going to be good. That being said, most of the time this will make your opponent play their creatures/enchantments/artifacts into daze instead. But the anti-synergy is still there and it is significant.

Looter il-Kor

This might seem like an odd include but it is there for many of the same reasons as the Judge's Familiar, mainly that it carries equipment so well. In many match ups Looter il-Kor will be a 2 mana True-Name Nemesis that also draws you a card when it connects. In legacy the quality of your cards depends so much on the match up that a continuous loot effect will provide a great advantage in very short time. This is also just extremely powerful with Edric. Your opponent has to deal with this threat or the virtual card advantage is going to overwhelm them.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest

This is the build around card of this deck. If Edric, Spymaster of Trest ever sticks, you're going to be so far ahead that there's no coming back for your opponent. The early plays of Mother of Runes, Judge's Familiar, Looter il-Kor means that you'll be drawing cards immediately after this guy hits the board. Is Edric, Spymaster of Trest brickwalled by a Tarmogoyf? Well your opponent can't attack with that tarmogoyf or we'll start drawing extra cards and our deck has no shortage of ways to beat a Tarmogoyf.

Why is this card not in the deck?

Tarmogoyf

Tarmogoyf is a vanilla beater. It's an efficient beater, but it has no real synergy with what the rest of the deck is trying to do. When you also consider that we want to be a good Rest in Peace deck, there's just no way that Tarmogoyf makes the cut.

Knight of the Reliquary

For much of the same reason I don't want Tarmogoyf, I don't want Knight of the Reliquary either.

Ponder

Ponder is great at finding the card you need in a specific situation, it increases the consistency of your deck (except if you start cutting lands for it) and it helps flipping Delvers. But playing cantrips is a huge tempo loss for a deck looking to curve out as much as this deck is. We also have no delvers to flip so we don't have to play a large amount of instants/sorceries to allow the Delver to flip. Ponder is still a card that can be included but it will decrease the power level of the deck.

Green Sun's Zenith

I don't have the necessary green creatures to actually be running Green Sun's Zenith. I have a green mana dork, and Green Sun's Zenith would let me find my card draw engine, but it doesn't find a creature to actually get through with. Coupled with the fact that it's also an expensive spell to run in a 20 land deck, it's rarely going to be very good. The deck is trying to be extremely mana efficient, and you want to keep extra lands in hand for brainstorm or to discard to Looter il-Kor.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Jace, the Mind Sculptor is hard to deal with for removal heavy decks, it's a finisher and it's a card draw engine. You can definitely sideboard Jace, the Mind Sculptor against decks that's going to overload on -1/-1 effects, but with 20 lands it is not easy to cast.

Benevolent Bodyguard

Even though it might not seem like it, because I'm playing cards like Judge's Familiar, I want my cards to be individually powerful. Benevolent Bodyguard is in most cases better than Mother of Runes with Edric, Spymaster of Trest but Mother of Runes is better alone, as it can hold back a batterskull, force through Jitte, and protect a turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic.

Why not cut Noble Hierarch for Deathrite Shaman and Edric for Dark Confidant?

Noble Hierarch is more consistent at what it does than Deathrite Shaman, it also makes it so that we win the Germ vs. Germ fight, the exalted is in general very relevant. We also want to be a very effective Rest in Peace deck, and Noble Hierarch supports that plan better. Dark Confidant is very suspect in a deck with five 5 CMC cards. Dark Confidant also does not draw cards the turn it comes into play making it not-at-all suitable as a surprise blowout play. The clock this deck typically represents is also very slow, so Dark Confidant would cause unreasonable large amounts of life loss in this deck.

V. The Match Ups

VS. Delver Decks

Your role varies depending on you're on the play or draw, and depending on which kind of hand you have. Usually you come out of the gate approximately equally fast, but you're looking to play the control role. Remove their creatures and then establish a threat with an equipment like a Germ with a Batterskull, or a True-Name Nemesis with an Umezawa's Jitte. Generally speaking RUG Delver is more aggressive than you, BUG Delver is about the same, and Patriot Delver is slower than you. Against Patriot you want to overload their removal and make them deal with each threat on their own, usually by having equipment in play. If you can trade some damage for some cards with a Judge's familiar and an Edric, Spymaster of Trest holding back/racing a Tarmogoyf don't be afraid to do that. The card advantage will help you find a Rest in Peace or a Swords to Plowshares for the Tarmogoyf. Or even chump blockers to help keep the card advantage flowing while you maintain a healthy life total.

VS. Elves

You play the removal game until you can get Umezawa's Jitte online. This match up resembles the Death and Taxes vs. Elves match up except that you now have cheap counterspells which puts you over the top and turn you into an actual favourite in this match up. Mother of Runes helps keep your Edric, Spymaster of Trest alive post board and also lets you hit through Qurion Ranger + Dryad Arbor and Wirewood Symbiote + any elf so don't board it out! Board out Daze instead and replace it with Grafdigger's Cage and Ethersworn Canonist.

vs. Death & Taxes

... Coming Soon

UWR Miracles

... Coming Soon

Omnitell

Play out your creatures and hope for the best. Emphasize drawing as many cards as possible in the shortest amount of time, to dig for your Daze/Force of Wills and Judge's Familiar.

Grixis Control

... Coming Soon


VI. The Sideboarding

Sideboards will change over time depending on the meta game, and even the main deck will change. So it will not be possible to give exact sideboard guides, but here's some general guidelines.

Try not to sideboard out too many creatures. The deck is synergy based, which means that there's individually weak cards that are fantastic together. Versus fair decks such as delver and D&T you want to sideboard out your Counterspells if you have enough sideboard cards to bring in. Start by cutting Daze.

Versus most combo decks Mother of runes seem lackluster, but it protects your haymakers (such as Ethersworn Canonist) from Abrupt Decay and Pyroclasm. So most often you want to sideboard out your most expensive creatures, such as True-Name Nemesis and a few copies of Edric, Spymaster of Trest. And the obvious cards such as Swords to Plowshares and Umezawa's Jitte goes to the sideboard as well, vs. the combo decks.

VII. The Results

Being a relatively new deck in legacy and played only by a few people. This deck does not have many results as of yet.

9th at SCG New Jersey (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67729)

[BVB09]

The deck looks really interesting to me. I'd love to see it work. However the first thing I thought when I looked at it was Why not 4 Dark confidants and 4 Deathrites instead of the Edrics and Hierarch's?
I imagine Exalted is important to help the small creatures. But is it so important? Those are the only green cards you're running if I'm not mistaken. Why not black instead? Is Edric that powerful here?

[HSCK]

I'm kind of in love with this deck right now, what are you thinking of adding vs. dismissed already?

[Final Fortune]

I have a soft spot for any fish deck because they were the first decks I played in Vintage, but I also can't help but think this deck gets better as soon as you cut Noble Hierarch and Edric, Spymaster of Trest for Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confident because you only need 1 Tropical Island to support Deathrite Shaman's second ability vs any graveyard deck and Dark Confident is a draw engine without any conditions.

I think you kind of need Tarmogoyf to justify green, but it looks fun regardless.

Have you tried Invisible Stalker at all?

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Before suggesting Bob and Deathrite again, can we all just remember that Hierach enables all of the 1/1s sans equipment and RiP out of the board? Edric isn't even a clear downgrade from Bob in this slot.

What seems off to me is the lack of Ponder. This kind of deck depends on card selection pretty heavily even if it doesn't have Delvers to flip. Mom looks like the weakest slot off the bat with the 3rd equipment (to the board) and 20th land as good candidates for the set.

Wanted to add that cutting land #20 removes Karakas from consideration, which is playable here, but the added selection can help keep that stuff off the table.

[Quasim0ff]

-2 mom
-2 looter
-1 sofi (to board)

+4 ponder
+1 tnn

I think this will make it better, honestly..

[Megadeus]

I'd cut Batterskull to the board before I cut SoFaI. SoFaI works MUCH better than BSkull in your main gameplan. And if you drop mom you have less ways to protect SFM to get it active for BSkull.

[Barook]

There are videos where Bahra plays the deck in the Legacy dailies, e.g. start watching around 5:45:00 (http://de.twitch.tv/bahra_/b/517376987).

IIRC, no Deathrites and Tarmogoyfs for immunity to GY hate and being able to run RiP in the board yourself.

From what I've seen so far, Edric draws significantly more cards than Bob over the course of the game, and all that without any life loss.

Karakas might be worth including, though, as long as the mana base can handle it.

And why are people discussing cutting equipment from the MD? Jitte/SoFaI/Batterskull is the equipment configuration for the format right now.

[Megadeus]

I'm not personally a fan of Batterskull. I mean it's probably fine here, but too many people think that it is the de facto fetch off of SFM on T2. The deck looks really potent, and I also disagree with simply writing edric off and saying bob is better. Edric can drop on T3 when you have 2 attackers and immediately gain 2 cards.

[HSCK]

Then that's a read problem, not a problem with Batterskull, it's still a free win sometimes and let's you grind out infinitely if need be. I'm testing Ponders over Moms right now.

[FTW]

I think Batterskull is slightly better here than in other SFM decks with Exalted making it win germ v germ fights and gaining you extra life. Without Goyfs and such, it's your only fatty. As long as other decks are running it with success, I wouldn't cut it from here. As long as you don't play like a nob and auto-pilot Batterskull instead of evaluating which equipment will give you the best advantage in the game, but IMO that should be a given.

EDIT: But I do not like the name. The only disruptive dorks are the Judges and the only merfolk are the TNNs. "Fish" implies more merfolk or more hatebears. This looks more like "Bant EdricBlade", although hopefully you give it a more colorful name than that.

[Final Fortune]

I had serious problems whenever I was put on defense by BUG, Looter not being able to block was a problem and I quickly understood how important Mother of Runes was as a wall. I think you might want a Sword of Body and Mind in the SB in order to be able to attack thru' a Tarmogoyf, make a bear and equip it.

I've also messed around with condensing the Mother of Runes and Looter Ill Kor into Invisible Stalkers and that seemed pretty decent, I think there's probably a few different cards that work well in that slot - for instance the nostalgia got the better of me and I really want to test Spiketail Hatchling right now.

Also Golgari Charm is a massive kick in the nuts to this deck, I think you really need Spell Snare in your 75.

[Morte]

Question about the sideboard:



Sideboard:

3x Envelop
2x Spell Pierce
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Pithing Needle
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Arcane Laboratory


What's the purpose of the split 2x Enlightened Tutor + 1x Relic of Progenitus? Relic for cantripping when you already have RiP in play?

[Bahra]

Question about the sideboard:



What's the purpose of the split 2x Enlightened Tutor + 1x Relic of Progenitus? Relic for cantripping when you already have RiP in play?

In match ups like Jund, Shardless BUG and BUG Delver you don't want Enlightened Tutor but you do want Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus. And from my experience with playing Death and Taxes, I've found 3 Rest in Peace to be too many. You really want to draw 1 but you hate drawing 2 (unless they deal with the first one immediately). So Relic of Progenitus is like a 3rd Rest in Peace that replaces itself if it's unnecessary, it's also better against Abrupt Decay.

I will admit that the sideboard definitely needs work, I'm just not sure what to add yet. I have a ton of combo hate so far, but I'm also a little weak to combo game 1. That being said I think I want some things to bring in against Deathblade, UWR delver and the likes, I'm just not sure exactly what I want.

[Barook]

This looks more like "Bant EdricBlade", although hopefully you give it a more colorful name than that.
How about "Bant Rogues" - the deck has quite a few Rogues with Edric, Looter and TNN. Just my 2 cent.

I wonder what the deck does against problematic non-equipment artifacts/enchantments since it runs zero hate for that in its current iteration.

[Quasim0ff]

I think Batterskull is slightly better here than in other SFM decks with Exalted making it win germ v germ fights and gaining you extra life. Without Goyfs and such, it's your only fatty. As long as other decks are running it with success, I wouldn't cut it from here. As long as you don't play like a nob and auto-pilot Batterskull instead of evaluating which equipment will give you the best advantage in the game, but IMO that should be a given.

EDIT: But I do not like the name. The only disruptive dorks are the Judges and the only merfolk are the TNNs. "Fish" implies more merfolk or more hatebears. This looks more like "Bant EdricBlade", although hopefully you give it a more colorful name than that.

Hi,

This resembles a Noble Fish deck very much. Noble Fish was an old, disruptive vintage strategy.

[Mackan]

I really like the deck put here's what I would change (not considering changing much in the core of the deck)

-1 Daze +1 Vendilion Clique -1 Savannah +1 Karakas
Daze is pretty bad on the draw but even on the play it's just "ok" in multiples. With 3 Daze and 4 Fow there's a reasonable chance you will be able to resolve clique before you die against combo and that would make it better than the 4th Daze. I would also include a Karakas, clique or not. The problem with Daze in an Edric deck is that you will draw them when they are lackluster. Edric is better with proactive disruption like thoughtseize or hard counters/hatebears instead of taxing counters like Daze (or spell pierce). I agree you need some to protect/resolve him, so there's a balance, but I think at a certain point you rather play other disruption.

-2 Spell pierce -1 Envelop -1 Enlightened tutor +2 Flusterstorm +2 Meddling mage
Envelop is a fine draw from Edric for the reason above (non-taxing hardcounter for terminus/show and tell) but would switch the pierces for flusterstorm. Pierce is a bit underwhelming, I would rather add meddling mage/needle or similar to stop Sneak attack or sensei's divining top rather than trying to counter them, for example. I would also like my combo-hate to be permanents (hatebears really) and I think meddling mage is very nice in a deck with equipments. Could consider a Phyrexian Revoker (naming Led, sneak attack, top). I really hate the _second_ E.tutor in this deck. The first one I like though but I would play a "real" card before I add my second E.tutor to a blue deck.

-1 Arcane Laboratory +1 Ethersworn canonist
It dies to massacre and it can't be pitched to fow but at one mana less I think it's much better.

-1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Grafdigger's cage
The last thing I would add is a grafdigger's cage, either over the relic or the second e.tutor, it's insane vs elves as you know and I think you need some help in that matchup. Relic is fine against thresh but do you really need help against those?

If midrange is a problem I would squeeze another TNN in the 75, it's the best at what it does. Unfortunatly.

(Also, it's Marcus here. Why are you not streaming? ;P)

[FTW]

Hi,

This resembles a Noble Fish deck very much. Noble Fish was an old, disruptive vintage strategy.

Noble Fish ran more disruptive dorks like Meddling Mage, Qasali Pridemage, Scooze, Ethersworn Canonist, Trygon Predator, Snapcaster Mage... It was a "Fish" deck.

This deck barely has any disruptive dorks. It's a Bant Stoneblade deck.

[HSCK]

Can we not devolve into an argument about naming conventions over discussion of how to analyze and optimize a really interesting deck?

I'm still a little weary on the Looter slots, but I have liked Ponders in the Mom slots. Maybe I'll next try 3 TNN, 3 Ponder?

[sdematt]

Shadow is also the tits and it is something people have forgotten about. Stick equipment on that guy and run with it!

-Matt

[Quasim0ff]

Noble Fish ran more disruptive dorks like Meddling Mage, Qasali Pridemage, Scooze, Ethersworn Canonist, Trygon Predator, Snapcaster Mage... It was a "Fish" deck.

This deck barely has any disruptive dorks. It's a Bant Stoneblade deck.
No, fish was mainly categorized by the presence of Null Rod in a deck with Bant Colours.

Most of these cards wasn't even printed when Fish was big... It relied heavily on soft counter (Daze being very played), wastelands as well as 3 Null Rods main deck.

Deckname came from the creater, Mike Noble. This was his 2011 (updated) version of the deck: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/17331

[HSCK]

So trying out 4 TNNs was pretty awful, it definitely needs something at the 2 drop position. I like having at least one Ponder in there too. I think 3 TNN works a bit better and I'm still liking the triple edric as you really want to see him quickly. I'm going to go to 1 Ponder and 1 TNN in the Mom slots and 2 Looters.

[KobeBryan]

There really isn't that much room to play test around. I think the only spot is the Looter spot at 2cmc

[HSCK]

I'm testing around 4 slots, the 2 Mom slots and the 2 looter slots. Right now Moms are a ponder and another TNN.

[KobeBryan]

I'm testing around 4 slots, the 2 Mom slots and the 2 looter slots. Right now Moms are a ponder and another TNN.

I think I would rather have mom than ponder.

Knowing how this deck has an inherent ability to draw TONS of cards, protecting the draw card engine may be even more worthwhile than a cantrip.

I would actually want to fit a 3rd mom over ponder.

[Razorwynd]

I think I would rather have mom than ponder.

Knowing how this deck has an inherent ability to draw TONS of cards, protecting the draw card engine may be even more worthwhile than a cantrip.

I would actually want to fit a 3rd mom over ponder.

I tend to agree with Kobe here...

[Barook]

Mom also helps against AD which your counters can't stop.

[KobeBryan]

this OP's list is pretty stellar.

I think i would drop a sfm for another mom.

Another issue. This deck would suffer a lot of splash damage from TNN hate. Everyone has a golgari charm, zealous persecution, and other TNN killers.

this deck has over 14 creatures with a x/1.

I play 3 golgari charms in my team america deck.

[Barook]

this OP's list is pretty stellar.

I think i would drop a sfm for another mom.

Another issue. This deck would suffer a lot of splash damage from TNN hate. Everyone has a golgari charm, zealous persecution, and other TNN killers.

this deck has over 14 creatures with a x/1.

I play 3 golgari charms in my team america deck.
SFM breaks board parity, though. I wouldn't cut one for that. How about cutting one Daze instead? Might be a terrible suggestion, though.

I agree that -1/-1 effects look like a big weakness of the deck, but it also runs lots of counters.

[KobeBryan]

SFM breaks board parity, though. I wouldn't cut one for that. How about cutting one Daze instead? Might be a terrible suggestion, though.

I agree that -1/-1 effects look like a big weakness of the deck, but it also runs lots of counters.

that may be true...but when you sideboard against decks that run golgari charm, would you really side in counters?

[thecrav]

Shadow is also the tits and it is something people have forgotten about. Stick equipment on that guy and run with it!

-Matt

It seems to me that in this deck, looter's shadow is far more important than his ability. That is, you're looking to connect with equipment or edric more than you're looking to loot.

With that in mind, I took a look at some of the other Shadow-y options. In order of how much I like them and why:

Soltari Foot Soldier (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=21187) costs less than looter
Thalakos Sentry (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4735) has a two-butt so it doesn't die to a lot of the TNN hate such as golgari charm
Augur il-Vec (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=132212) has a three butt, so it doesn't die to most of the damaged-based removal. The ability is also possibly relavent.
Soltari Trooper (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=4905) has his own built-in version of exalted to end the game earlier

[Razorwynd]

It seems to me that in this deck, looter's shadow is far more important than his ability. That is, you're looking to connect with equipment or edric more than you're looking to loot.

With that in mind, I took a look at some of the other Shadow-y options. In order of how much I like them and why:


I think you are really underestimating the power of looters ability. As stated in the OP, the format as a whole (and particularly this deck and its lack of ponder) needs the right cards at the right time. Looter goes a long way to ensure that you have the cards you need when you need them.

[KobeBryan]

I think you are really underestimating the power of looters ability. As stated in the OP, the format as a whole (and particularly this deck and its lack of ponder) needs the right cards at the right time. Looter goes a long way to ensure that you have the cards you need when you need them.

Amen.

Looter isn't just for shadow, its to get you a card when you desperately need it.

Also, it would be pretty entertaining to see someone kill a looter with removal.

[Final Fortune]

Had a lot of fun with -2 Mother of Runes, -2 Looter Il Kor, -2 True Name Nemesis and +4 Invisible Stalker, +2 Vendilion Clique. I think those slots are kind of mutable but True Name Nemesis and Mother of Runes provide a lot of stopping power vs a rogue Tarmogoyf, some times the deck just needs to "wall up".

I did however get slaughtered by Jund.

[HSCK]

My Jund test went equally bad. That might be something that we can't really fix though.

[Admiral_Arzar]

My Jund test went equally bad. That might be something that we can't really fix though.

I doubt a deck with this many x/1s and x/2s is ever going to have a positive matchup against Punishing Fire.

[Morte]

I doubt a deck with this many x/1s and x/2s is ever going to have a positive matchup against Punishing Fire.

The deck is designed around Rest in Peace postboard. Against Jund, RiP shuts down DRS, Goyf and Punishing Fire recursion. If they can't stop all your draw engines, the matchup could be not that bad.

[KobeBryan]

My Jund test went equally bad. That might be something that we can't really fix though.

I too want to comment that I lost ot jund.

That matchup is pretty hard.

[OCPunisher]

Has anyone tried Geist of Saint Traft in this list? Comes down on turn 2 off a Noble just like TNN, but draws an extra card with Edric on the table.

[HSCK]

Geist, Sprite, Thalia, and Scryb Ranger are all on my test list. Thalia seems both good and bad? Helps with taxing effects and tempo, but really needs Noble to shine in that regard. Geist and TNN can deal a lot of damage and draw a lot of cards quickly but doesn't shore up weaknesses that well either. Scryb and Sprite are interesting as they can tempo and evade, but how relevant are these abilities?

[Poron]

4 Mothers

[HSCK]

Like Edric Maverick? I'm at 3 TNN and 3 Looters right now, it's been fun testing and learning the ins and outs of the deck.

[limbo]

I played a 3 matches each against Imperial Painter and Jund last night. In both cases I really felt the lack of basic plains (blood moon and wasteland). The mana here is easily attacked. Something to keep in mind when tweaking and playing.

[HSCK]

I've definitely wanted a basic Plains in here somewhere.

[limbo]

I also really like the suggestion from one of the previous posters to add two Meddling Mage to the board. I haven't played enough with it to know exactly what board changes I want but this is the first thing I am looking at.

If you are going deep, or playing tons of Jund and BUG, this is probably one of the few decks that can legitimately use divert. I am anxious to hear peoples' post-board game results and thoughts.

[HSCK]

So my board is currently:

3 RiP
2 Meddling Mage
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
1 Krosan Grip
1 Disenchant

Keeping the same 20 land scheme, and switched the Moms out for another Looter and another TNN. Not sure what to cut for a Plains.

EDIT: I think we should call this deck Bahra Bant, doesn't it have a nice ring to it?

[limbo]

Since fitting all three basics into this deck is very hard on the mana, or requires cutting spells, is there a solid reason not to go with the more standard BUG delver style manabase like : 9 fetch, 3 tundra, 2 trop, 2 savannah, 4 waste and just accept that bloodmoon and wasteland are problems?

[HSCK]

I'd rather just fit the Plains in honestly.

[limbo]

I'd rather just fit the Plains in honestly.

I ran this yesterday in a little local tournament.
Lands (20):
4x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
1x Windswept Heath

Creatures (21):
4x Judge's Familiar
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2x Looter il-Kor
2x True-Name Nemesis
2x Mother of Runes

Non-creature spells (19):
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Sideboard:
3x Envelop
2x Spell Pierce
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Meddling Mage


I opted for more consistent mana, and accepted that blood moon and wasteland are good cards. I liked it a lot. I didn't miss the basics. This deck is great fun. I out card advantaged Goblins, which is hard to do, and dismantled UG infect. I finished second on breakers (M:3-1). loss was to BUG Delver (G:1-2) in round 2 with two bad mulligans. I liked the Meddling mages a lot, they were bodies with potent upside which flows well with what the deck does well. I am going to swap 2 envelop for 2 flusterstorm and I think the third will become something else as well (probably Krosan grip, pridemage, or the needle originally in the list) but not changing it until I run some more games. If anyone else tests different configurations, please post results and thoughts. I like this and will definitely be keeping it in the stable of decks to play for a while.

Edit:
Additional Card to consider: How do people feel about unexpectedly absent? Seems to fit the plan well and deals with problem permanents.

[HSCK]

I just tested a few quick sets with Jund and RUG Delver, I found basics to be totally invaluable as we got into Wasteland/Daze wars that ended with me on top. Noble+Daze is really strong, and sometimes, Noble+Daze+Wasteland basically wins you the game.

[Slag]

I opted for more consistent mana, and accepted that blood moon and wasteland are good cards. I liked it a lot. I didn't miss the basics. This deck is great fun. I out card advantaged Goblins, which is hard to do, and dismantled UG infect. I finished second on breakers (M:3-1). loss was to BUG Delver (G:1-2) in round 2 with two bad mulligans. I liked the Meddling mages a lot, they were bodies with potent upside which flows well with what the deck does well. I am going to swap 2 envelop for 2 flusterstorm and I think the third will become something else as well (probably Krosan grip, pridemage, or the needle originally in the list) but not changing it until I run some more games. If anyone else tests different configurations, please post results and thoughts. I like this and will definitely be keeping it in the stable of decks to play for a while.

Edit:
Additional Card to consider: How do people feel about unexpectedly absent? Seems to fit the plan well and deals with problem permanents.

"Dismantled" might be a strong term, considering I got you one game in-match and one for fun afterwards, although I will definitely cede the mid to late game to your deck.:cool: The loss to bug involved some awkward mana issues, between your waste and his waste, but I'm not sure having basics would have helped that much. If I recall correctly, you had some blue cards and a stp, and having to fetch for one color would have left you with dead cards either way. The real kicker for that game, though, was the golgari charm. Running more flusterstorms in the board might be worthwhile just for that.

[limbo]

"Dismantled" might be a strong term, considering I got you one game in-match and one for fun afterwards, although I will definitely cede the mid to late game to your deck.:cool: The loss to bug involved some awkward mana issues, between your waste and his waste, but I'm not sure having basics would have helped that much. If I recall correctly, you had some blue cards and a stp, and having to fetch for one color would have left you with dead cards either way. The real kicker for that game, though, was the golgari charm. Running more flusterstorms in the board might be worthwhile just for that.

That is fair. :tongue: Games I won against you, I didn't feel like you really had any outs. The first one you got I definitely misvalued my resources. Infect is scary, but I think the bant deck is favored by quite a bit. Feel free to prove me wrong.

As for BUG, yeah both of my mulligans left me with 6 card hands that lacked something, G1 I lacked threats then flooded out. G3 I lacked blue for an important turn then he hit waste the turn after I found it (note I got blue by drawing a dual, not a fetch so basic doesn't help there). Agree charm is a big problem.

[HSCK]

So if you have a fetch, then basics help? I think it's wrong for a deck that lacks the filtering of 4 BS and 4 Ponders to avoid basics when it can run them. Leveraging mana is always a good thing and it's how I've been winning, especially since it helps against one of the most popular cards in the format.

[limbo]

So if you have a fetch, then basics help? I think it's wrong for a deck that lacks the filtering of 4 BS and 4 Ponders to avoid basics when it can run them. Leveraging mana is always a good thing and it's how I've been winning, especially since it helps against one of the most popular cards in the format.

I am afraid I do not understand what you are trying to say. Your use of "leveraging" is not clear to me. My thought process for this iteration of the manabase was simply that because the mana requirements are high and because there is not a ton of early filtering (via ponder) that an additional dual and fetch will allow me to cast my spells more frequently than if I had some number of basics which could be in my opening hand. This should also allow me to mulligan slightly less. Given the curve of the deck, even if they have a wasteland I likely get at least one usage out of my land. During testing with 2 basics I had two cases of draws that naturally included basics and no nobles, that allowed my opponents wasteland to take me off of two colors. I don't have enough game reps to know if this construction is truly wrong for this deck, this is why I am trying it both ways. I don't get to play enough to do high number statistics so input (with explanation or stats) is greatly appreciated.

To your "So if you have a fetch, then basics help?" question: because I am tinkering with the deck I was keeping track during games (with the no basics manabase) of when I would have gotten a basic if I had the option to see how often that came up. I also kept track of when I would have drawn one (slip of paper in the sleeve with the additional trop and the additional fetch was my only heath). Basics would have certainly caused some additional mulligans. In the case I mentioned, I could not have played around the wasteland even if I had basics in the deck (the lands I saw that game were tundra, wasteland, tundra, no brainstorms). That was the only game where I had mana trouble and it was a mulligan to 6 which perhaps I should have thrown back for 5. Thus far I like the no basics manabase.

[KobeBryan]

How have you guys dealt with enchantments and artifacts

[limbo]

How have you guys dealt with enchantments and artifacts

As it stands, don't let them hit play, or play through them, or lose to them. I don't think it is unreasonable to play one K. grip or one Pridemage is the board, but I haven't tried that out yet.

[HSCK]

A Grip and a Disenchant. Also testing 3 MD Meddling Mages and 2 SB Trygon Predators after listening to the Podcast.

[Cambriel]

I took Bahra's main deck list to local legacy yesterday and went 3-0-1, splitting round 4. It was quite fun, though not at all what I expected. The tempo of the deck is wildly different from Stoneblade or Patriot despite using many of the same cards as both.

Playing Daze, you generally want to try and have a 1 drop. The best hands either have a T1 Familiar (best) or a T1 Hierarch backed by Daze (also good). Judge's Familiar is an impressive amount of disruption for a little 1/1 flyer, especially on the play where it will buy you a turn of protection from Thoughtseize, Therapy or just stop a combo. We are able to hit the board very strong.

T2, unfortunately, is very weak. You can run out Stoneforge early if you have it protected, but the most proactive play is really to cast Hierarch and swing with Familiar for 2. That isn't much, but I won a lot of games nickel and diming peopel with 1/1s and exalted triggers, and it makes me want to focus more on that as a game plan. Hierarch is very strong, but you don't have the long game of Esper's Deathrites. I didn't like Looter at all. The evasion was nice, but he's incredibly weak for 2 mana and the looting effect wasn't as strong as I would have anticipated.

Some of the creatures felt a little off as well. The textbox on Edric reads like you want to flood the board, but 4 of your creatures attack for 0 alongside another body and another 4 are flying Cursecatchers. You end up getting a lot more exalted triggers and a lot fewer cards than you'd think. Edric is a "must answer", but he won't close the game like a TNN will, and he's really a top of curve bomb. He's awful if you don't already have an evasive threat when you cast him.

Mother of Runes in particular felt wrong all night. In my experience, she's either a 4-of to threaten turn 1, or just don't play her. Also, she splits our 1 drops color-wise in a way that sometimes forces a turn 1 fetch for a Savannah, which conflicts with Daze. I like that it plays a little more aggressively with Daze instead of Spell Pierce, so Mom needs to swap for a blue or green 1 drop to make sure we can play a strong turn 1.

For the next few games, I'm going to try swapping Mom for Triton Shorestalker and Looter il-Kor for Qasali Pridemage. That keeps the same number of evasive creatures, with more aggressive 1 drops and cleaner mana on turn 1, adds two more exalted triggers and gives us some mainboard defense against CounterTop or other Stoneblade decks. Mom's protection just isn't as valuable when you can't rely on her hitting the table early.

[OCPunisher]

For the next few games, I'm going to try swapping Mom for Triton Shorestalker and Looter il-Kor for Qasali Pridemage. That keeps the same number of evasive creatures, with more aggressive 1 drops and cleaner mana on turn 1, adds two more exalted triggers and gives us some mainboard defense against CounterTop or other Stoneblade decks. Mom's protection just isn't as valuable when you can't rely on her hitting the table early.

Why not just swap out the Mothers for Pridemages?

[lyracian]

Why not just swap out the Mothers for Pridemages?
You want one-drop's in the deck for the first turn play.

[KobeBryan]

You want one-drop's in the deck for the first turn play.

With 4 noble and 4 judges. That's quite a bit of one drops. This deck needs something to answer artifacts and enchantments

[HSCK]

3 Meddling Mages and 2 Trygon Predators are in my 75 now for that.

[Cambriel]

With 4 noble and 4 judges. That's quite a bit of one drops. This deck needs something to answer artifacts and enchantments

They're both powerful 1 drops, but you need 10 or so in order to reliably have one in your opening 7.

Meddling Mage and Trygon Predator are both pretty good options here (Trygon is expensive though). Main deck, I prefer Pridemage because of the exalted trigger. Those things really do some work in a deck with this many evasive creatures.

I do like Trygon Predator over Manriki in the SB, though.

[MTGPlayer]

I played Bahra's list at SCGCincinnati this weekend with one minor modification - replacing a Daze with a Karakas. I also ran a totally different sideboard with 4 Humility, 3 Rest in Peace and some other poor card choices.

Between the open trial on Saturday and the open on Sunday, I went 6-6-1 with the deck. I was 1-1 vs. W/B Deadguy, beat Affinity, lost a close match to R/U Delver, lost to Miracles, lost to Dredge (even with 3 SB Rest in Peace), lost to Sneak & Show (even with 4 Humility), went 1-1 vs. Shardless BUG, drew vs. Elves, went 1-1 vs. Jund (Rest in Peace was key to my win), beat RUG Delver, and I don't remember my other match ups (I won them though haha).

I liked the deck but it was missing something. Just like Cambriel said earlier, the Noble Hierarchs and Edrics have a little anti-synergy. The Judge's Familiars and Looter il-Kors were awesome. They definitely belong. I could even see running 3 looters and only 2 Edrics (even though I know that is one of the main reasons for the deck). The looting ability is very strong and the Looters' evasion goes well with the exalted triggers and equipment.

Even though they are very powerful, the Stoneforge Mystics felt a little out of place in this shell. They are very slow in this tempo-style deck, in my opinion. I searched up Jitte a lot of the time. By using 2 mana to cast SFM, 2 mana to cast Jitte, and 2 mana to equip it, I feel like you are slowing yourself down. I would consider running multiple copies of Jittes/Swords with no SFMs, with the idea that you could cast some early drops and then cast/equip Jitte or Sword quickly. This would give you a huge tempo edge against the stone blade decks and allow you to keep pace with the delver decks. When I searched Batterskull, my opponent would often kill the SFM, leaving me no realistic chance of playing it in such a land-light deck.

I would like to test with 2 Qasali Pridemages and 2 Meddling Mages for removal and disruption in place of the SFMs. The Pridemages would be good against equipment and Miracles. I think the main deck Meddling Mages would be nice against combo, control, and fair decks. For combo, you could name a combo piece, for control you could name board sweepers, and against fair decks I think its really important to name the -1/-1 effects that are designed to hit TNN but wreck this deck as well. Basically, I like the classic Noble Fish idea of cheap creatures and disruption. This build needs a little more disruption IMO.

In the matches I won, I really felt the benefit of running a deck that no one knew about. People are so unsure of how to play against you when they see Judges Familiars and Looter il-Kors. They have no idea if you are running Daze or what. I also remember somebody siding in something against me that was totally horrible just because he wasn't familiar with my list. I think the deck has potential - I want to try playing it a little more. I know this is a small sample size, so take it for what its worth.

[OCPunisher]

I tried cutting the two Moms for Qasali Pridemages and it seemed to work out really well. This isn't really a Mom deck...most of the creatures are either 0/1 mana dorks, 1/1s that sac themselves, and TNNs which don't need Mom to protect them. To be honest, I didn't notice the presence of the Pridemages nearly as much as the absence of Moms. I'm sure there's an argument to be made for running Meddling Mage or Snapcaster Mage or who know what else in those two spots.

@the anti-synergy between Edric and exalted creatures: I've found that the exalted trigger is really just a nice side-effect, but it's not really critical. Most of the time, the extra draw power is the real advantage. If you get to a point where you are attacking with multiple Ophidians, you're probably gonna win in spite of the missing exalted triggers.

[HSCK]

I've really enjoyed the 3 TNN and 3 Meddling set up so far. Has anyone else tested something similar? Bahra just 4-0'ed a daily with his original list.

[KobeBryan]

I've really enjoyed the 3 TNN and 3 Meddling set up so far. Has anyone else tested something similar? Bahra just 4-0'ed a daily with his original list.

I haven't tried the Meddling mage, but I'm trying to shore up the MOMs to 4

[randomly.anonymous]

I haven't tried the Meddling mage, but I'm trying to shore up the MOMs to 4

Would it be stronger to just play it in a Maverick shell with Edric and TNN in the knight of the relinquary slots?

I thought the reason the Bant-stoneforge decks went out of favour was because Maverick sported basically the same gameplan but better.

[HSCK]

9th at SCG Somerset with Edric making another appearance in a BUG Order deck.

[lyracian]

9th at SCG Somerset with Edric making another appearance in a BUG Order deck.

Looks at the standings -
BUG Edric (Natural Order) 8th Eli Kassis
Bant Edric (Noble Fish) 9th Matthew Szabo

Guess they will have to move this to Established soon!

[WorstBandNameEver]

Looks at the standings -
BUG Edric (Natural Order) 8th Eli Kassis
Bant Edric (Noble Fish) 9th Matthew Szabo

Guess they will have to move this to Established soon!

Also, with Bant Edric, Szabo was 7-1 and got deck checked and was given a game loss for two sleeve being a bit more played. He was then up agianst dredge and lost game one with out sideboard knowledge at that point. He came back to beat Eric Reel on Rug Delver 2-0.

[Collman]

Szabo posted a report of the tournament here (http://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/26irjw/9th_at_scg_somerset_w_noble_fish_quick_recap/).

I'm curious how bad were those sleeves.

[Qweerios]

I can't help but wonder, with all the recent comments about this deck's strengths and flaws, if black > white would be preferred. Here's what I think:

-You lose SFM but it doesn't mean you lose equipments as you can still play 1-2 copies of Jitte successfully;
-StP becomes Decay and you get better answers against artifacts and enchantments;
-Noble gets upgraded to DRS;
-You get access to Baleful Strix for more card advantage, resilience to Goyf, and Edric potential;
-Dark Confidant doesn't sound too bad in there either;
-Your vulnerability to -1/-1 wrath effects decreases;
-Higher blue count for FoW;
-Overall more deck space to work with

[HSCK]

So what goes in he SFM slot that can grind games or be a quick route to winning?

[Giants1990]

I can't help but wonder, with all the recent comments about this deck's strengths and flaws, if black > white would be preferred. Here's what I think:

-You lose SFM but it doesn't mean you lose equipments as you can still play 1-2 copies of Jitte successfully;
-StP becomes Decay and you get better answers against artifacts and enchantments;
-Noble gets upgraded to DRS;
-You get access to Baleful Strix for more card advantage, resilience to Goyf, and Edric potential;
-Dark Confidant doesn't sound too bad in there either;
-Your vulnerability to -1/-1 wrath effects decreases;
-Higher blue count for FoW;
-Overall more deck space to work with

I playtested with Szabo in preparation for the event so I will share my thoughts:

- SFM is awesome in the deck. Finds the right equipment and allows it to be played for less and uncounterable.
- The deck functions on very little mana, so StP is not worse than Decay here. You want to play a guy and equip.
- Noble to Deathrite is not really an upgrade here. Yes DRS survives all the -1/-1 effects; however the exalted triggers allow your Birds to be a serious threat and helps TNN in a race. You also don't have to worry about playing Deathrite mirrors which can become frustrating.
- Baleful Strix is not bad but does not help the -1/-1 arguement.
- Rest In Peace with Enlightened Tutor out of the board are huge against Goyf/ DRS decks and Tutor also gets Arcane Lab for Elves (which was everywhere) and Storm.
- Confidant again dies to -1/-1 effects. You already have Edric, who can draw you 2-3 cards as soon as he is played and you move to combat.

[HSCK]

Still in love with this deck, might consider a Will of the Council in the board as my 5th removal spell.

[Hank Zhong]

seems like green sun's zenith could fill the role of additional one drops, in the form of dryad arbor, tutor for edric when you need it and play a toolbox of sorts to answer random threats.

arbor is also decent as a surprise attacker/blocker when you fetch it with a fetchland

the package would be something like this:

1 dryad arbor
3 zenith
1 scavenging ooze
1 qasali pridemage
1 knight of the reliquary

The question is what to cut and still keep the blue count high for FOW

[sadistik18]

Hello people! First time poster here.

I have been playing Death and taxes for close to 2 years straight now i tought i needed a change. After watching gahra playing this deck online i tought it was very interesting and i might as well give it a spin!

I playtested the original list for close to 4 weeks and something was just ......weird. I totaly loved it but i tought i was just lackluster sometimes.
So............ i started to do some tweaking. I came up whit a different list but i think its still the same as Noble Fish.

alright so here it is,

Creatures:

4x noble hierach
4x judge's familiar
3x stoneforge mysthic
3x Cold-eye selkie
2x looter ill-kor
2x true-name nemesis
2x quasalie pridemage

Spell:
1x jitte
1x batterskull
1x sword of fire and ice
4x Force of will
4x brainstorm
4x swords to plowshares
3x daze
3x Giant growth

Lands:

1x island
1x plains
2x tropical island
3x thundra
1x savanah
4x misty rainforest
4x floded strand
4x wasteland


Alright so yeah...... now what i tryed to do, is just keep the same goal whit diffrent cards. I found edric great sometimes, but the poor synergy of him with noble hierach and mother of runes just kept buggin me. On his own, edric was not to good either. So i went and replaced him with Cold-eye selkie. I also replaced the mothers for Quasalie pridemage. The selkie just performed BEYOND my expectations. If you land her on the field and carve a way for her, its card advantage heaven and since like 60% of the meta game is blue.....thats not realy an issue. Get her to attack whit 1 or 2 exalted triggers and your already in the money, now add Giant growth, and you just cast ancestral recall.

Giant growth surprised me also. I tought it might be just *to cute* of an interaction to keep it in the deck but as i playtested the deck, i found it quite good. Protects from bolts, helps to kills gofys when blocking, DRAWS CARDS WITH SELKIE and can help you win a race. I seriously fell in love whit it all over again. Heck!! i had people starting to cast toughtseizes and cabal theray on it juste because they couldnt handle it :laugh:. Not to mention when you attack whit selkie and they force giant growth to stop you from drawing additional cards, wich is also realy nice..... 2 for 1....OFF A GIANT GROWTH!!!


the only thing i don't like at this point are the stone forge mystics....they just feel slow. I would rather run 3-4 pieces of equipments floating around in the deck and run other creatures instead.

I have been playing this list for 3 weeks now and have a record of 12-3 so far (5 rounds events every monday nights).lost to burn, G/U food chain and 12 post.

Sorry for the misspelling if any, i tryed my best :tongue:

[HSCK]

61 cards with 3 Mystic....and 3 Giant Growth seems really really wrong. The point of Edric is to combine with your evasive guys and generate CA that way, Selkie will always be a turn slower and only adds to the -1/-1 vulnerability.

[Barbed Blightning]

I think if you are saying that Giant Growth is better than Stoneforge Mystic, you really need to play more Legacy.

[sadistik18]

I think if you are saying that Giant Growth is better than Stoneforge Mystic, you really need to play more Legacy.

by no means is giant growth better than stoneforge mystic, i was simply implying that alot of times stoneforge feels out of place when you are trying go * tempo* mode.
I played D&T for 2 years straight, i know pretty well what hes capable of doing lol :D.

on an oter note, i played a local tournament this friday for a playset of tropical island. Finished 3rd and lost in the semis vs dark bant :(. im pretty sold on this deck and theres still alot of room for testing since the deck is realy young. Might try to go back to edric if i try and put more creatures in the deck.

[Tenbin]

Took this deck to a 44-man tournament and split the finals against 4-color loam (we were both tired and my ride had been waiting for the whole top-8)

Round 1
GW Vial Maverick

Game 1:
He starts off with a Weathered Wayfarer and I start off with a mother of runes, he never gets to activate the wayfarer, I get a Jitte out and finish off with a batterskull.

Game 2:
Turn 1 Hierarch into turn 2 Stoneforge for Jitte sealed the deal rather early

1-0 matches, 2-0 games

Round 2:
Enchantress

Game 1:
Enchantress player didn't manage to do much relevant in this game and I landed Edric and some equipment

Game 2:
He got an early Elephant Grass that stalled into double Energy Field and a Rest in Peace. I HAD managed to get him down to 6 but I couldn't get rid of both Energy Fields =(. Mirri's Guile did heavy work for him this game

Game 3:
He again stalled with Elephant Grass and I just built up a huge board for when he had to sac it (he was stuck on 2-3 mana) and swung for a whole bunch.

2-0 matches, 4-1 games

Round 3
BG Goblins

Game 1:
I had a Familiar with exalted that beat on him for a few turns, he got a Piledriver online but at that point I'd gotten some equipment and a TNN so it was curtains for game 1

Game 2:
I got double hierarch and a TNN early, he Pyrokinesis'd my hierarchs and used Warren's Wierding to get rid of my TNN, I wasn't able to recover.

Game 3:
Managed to counter his relevant stuff and get through with my own, I got a Jitte going and managed to keep his threat density low. One HUGE mistake I did was when I just assumed his Tarfire was uncounterable due to Cavern of Souls, causing me to lose a stoneforge AND a Mother of Runes due to a sharpshooter. Edric drew me like 10 cards this game.

3-0 in matches, 6-2 in games

Round 4
UWR Miracles

Game 1:
Landed an early Stoneforge, Familiar and an Edric, he couldn't find the Terminus.

Game 2:
Got some light beatdown with a familiar, he then landed a one-off Izzet Staticaster he was trying out. Cue complete breakdown of deck.

Game 3:
I landed some early threats but held back a hierarch and a stoneforge for the inevitable terminus. It came and I followed up with an exalted Batterskull that he couldn't remove.

4-0 in matches, 8-3 in games

At this point I double-drew into top-8 as 1st seed but played round 5 for fun

Round 5
UG Food-Chain

Game 1:
He combos early and had FoWs for my FoWs

Game 2:
Here and in Game 3 we both make dumb mistakes. I get a turn 1 needle for Food-Chain and none of us realize it doesn't work, I blame the fact that we had already agreed to draw the match so we played sloppy. Without the combo I can get the Edric draws going and he has problems doing anything relevant against my draws and equipment.

Game 3:
Slow and grindy, the needle comes down again and he even exiles the food-chains to thin the deck and draw a card. Looter il-Kor does heavy lifting.

Top-8:

Quarter-Finals
Elves

I've always had problems with elves, not just with this deck but in general. I just think it's hard to combat.

Game 1:
he turn 2 glimpses and just pukes up a gazillion elves into a turn 3 NO. I die horribly.

Game 2:
REALLY close game, I get a batterskull online, he Viridian Shamans it, I bounce, play it, he bounces and play shaman. Rinse and Repeat for 3-4 turns until I get 7 mana and play and re-equip to Looter il-Kor for a big hit as I had 2 Hierarchs out. He the wrecks it on his turn and I finish him with two more hits from the looter.

Game 3:
He tries to get an early NO which I stop, then we stall out for a bit. I land a playset of Hierarchs and a Looter equipped with a Sword of Fire & Ice and a Batterskull, that's when it ends.

off to semis

Semi-Finals
BUG Delver

Game 1:
He never manages to get a good board presence and I beat him with a Judge's Familiar backed up by a Mother of Runes and a Noble Hierarch. We both spent our early game wastelanding and dazing eachother's stuff so I was just able to salvage my board more easily thanks to smoother draws I guess.

Game 2:
He lands a Tarmogoyf that ends up irrelevant as I had a Jitte and stuff, he tries to put a Tombstalker in the way of my familiar but I had the plow, it was just the kind of game where I had all the answers and he didnt.

When the second semi finishes I asked the winner if he wanted to split, which - he also being tired - he wanted. He was on 4-color loam and sounded a bit regretful of drawing when he found out what deck I played as he thought it was a good matchup. I don't doubt him as I don't know what I'd do against Punishing Fire. We ended up splitting 2 Modern fetch and a playset of FoWs, me getting the Scalding Tarn and the two FoWs in worse condition.

It was the first time I played the deck and I was very pleased with its performance, the Looters and the TNNs felt very vital as ways to definitely get damage through for Edric and equipments. I think I might try to put the mothers in the SB as they weren't very useful. I also had some bad times where I had an Edric and a bunch of Hierarchs against an empty board and couldn't capitalize on it.

I had two Council's Judgement in the board and was quite happy with that, otherwise the list was pretty stock.

[HSCK]

What was the name of this tournament and is there a full top 8? I'd like to add it to my data collection for June. Congrats on the finish, are you just using the stock list?

[Dosferra]

Took this deck to a 44-man tournament and split the finals against 4-color loam (we were both tired and my ride had been waiting for the whole top-8)

Thanks for the report! I was the guy that you split with, good times with two new/fringe decks in the finals.


What was the name of this tournament and is there a full top 8? I'd like to add it to my data collection for June. Congrats on the finish, are you just using the stock list?

We are still waiting for the organizers to put the top8 on some site.

But until then, the tournament was listed as 'Storlegacy' (which means Big Legacy in swedish) and was played at the venue Dragon's Lair in Stockholm, Sweden.

The top8 looked like this, I think:
Quarter-finals:
4 Color Loam vs. UW Stoneblade
Noble Fish vs. Elves
Shardless BUG vs. Food Chain
BUG Delver vs. Zoo
Semi-finals:
4 Color Loam vs. Shardless BUG
Noble Fish vs. BUG Delver
Final:
Noble Fish vs. 4 Color Loam (split)

[Dzra]

I was looking at some of the Vintage Noble Fish decks and noticed some old tech of Meddling Mage + Gitaxian Probe. I've seen a couple people mention trying Mages MD and Probe certainly isn't a bad card for a tempo deck to be running.

[Barbed Blightning]

Probe is better with an action spell behind it (Mage, Stifle, Therapy). I think unless we main Mages or Stifles (not a terrible idea, IMO) probe won't be worth the inclusion otherwise

[Dzra]

Yeah, I meant adding Probe alongside the Mages in particular, sorry if I wasn't clear. Stifle/Pierce or even Revokers seem good too.

[HSCK]

I've been switching between this and Shardless Thopters as of late and was wondering if anyone has experimented with Thopter Sword in the board? I'm testing out 3 Thopter Foundry and 1 SotM along with the one E tutor I already run. This would be for grindy match ups where we might not have the velocity to win.

[klaus]

report

Hey Tenbin, sweet performance.

From what you stated - does your list look a little something like this:

4 Noble
4 SFM
3 Looter
3 TNN
3 J's familiar
2 Qasali Pridemage
(19)

1 Skull
1 Jitte
1 Sofi
(3)

4 STP
4 BS
3 Ponder
4 FoW
3 Daze
(18)

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
(19)

SB:
4 Flusterstorm
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Engineered Explosives

What's different? What would you change? Why?

[evanmartyr]

I didn't read through the entire thread, so forgive me if I'm out of the loop, but have you considered invisible stalker over looter? Seems like he carries equipment better, can block, technically better under edric...

[HSCK]

Looter's filtering is really important and becomes insane with Edric.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I think this deck looks really cool, but (and this might be a loaded question) does it really perform? How many top 8s in large tournaments? I'm thinking about forking out for a third beta Tundra and I need a reason that isn't Miracles or Esperblade.

[HSCK]

It's had one or two good showings, is exceedingly fun, but might struggle at an Open.

[KobeBryan]

This thing is dying to TNN hate splash damage.

I would definitely run this deck if TNN is banned

[Tenbin]

Hey Tenbin, sweet performance.

From what you stated - does your list look a little something like this:

4 Noble
4 SFM
3 Looter
3 TNN
3 J's familiar
2 Qasali Pridemage
(19)

1 Skull
1 Jitte
1 Sofi
(3)

4 STP
4 BS
3 Ponder
4 FoW
3 Daze
(18)

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
(19)

SB:
4 Flusterstorm
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Engineered Explosives

What's different? What would you change? Why?

I like the maindeck Pridemages rather than Mother of Runes, but I'd take 3 Edric before 3 Ponder any day. I like the SB as well =).

@Kobe, I agree with your assessment about it dying to TNN hate, in the tournament I didn't face any hate, but I did face the one-off Izzet Staticaster that the miracle player was trying out. it REALLY ripped the deck apart.

I feel that it's worth trying Deathrite. The 2 toughness helps, being able to attack as a swarm with Edric would also help. I realize Deathrite would cause the deck to rely a bit on the graveyard but it might help more than it detracts; will test.

[HSCK]

This thing is dying to TNN hate splash damage.

I would definitely run this deck if TNN is banned

So never?

[Collman]

Is anyone still working with this deck?

I imagine -1/-1 effects will become pretty common with the amount of UR in the meta but looter also seems like a good way to fuel TC or DTT.

[Bahra]

Is anyone still working with this deck?

I imagine -1/-1 effects will become pretty common with the amount of UR in the meta but looter also seems like a good way to fuel TC or DTT.

It seems none of the active members on the source are working on it, but I know people in the US who has done well in paper tournaments with the deck recently, small time tournaments with duals and wastes on the line for example. Not opens.

I think Treasure Cruise would be a cool addition to the deck although it takes away the aspect of not relying on the GY at all. I don't think the UR delver "hate" is really relevant since people would rather play UR delver than hate on it. And that's also why D&T is doing well lately.

[HSCK]

I saw you pop up on a Daily at 3-1 a few days ago Bahra, what do you think of this deck in the new metagame?

[mordraid]

Hey there noble fishers ! just found out there is a thread about this edric bant deck. I've been playing this deck for a while now and i must say that it is better than it looks at first glance.

Now that treasure cruise is gone, Edric can be, again, the card drawing we need. I've read all post from the beginning and i'm still unsold on the looters. I understand very well that they connect easily with swords and edric, but still, i'm not convince. One of the looter slots can be switched for a sylvan library, wich have done wonders for me thus far.

I also think we must adress the manabase. I don't believe that playing 4x wasteland and 4x mana dork is enough to support 19 lands total. we need more lands, something like 21-22 lands. Wasteland is back in force and we need a solid manabase.

Here's my list for reference.

creatures:
4x noble hierarch
4x judge's familiar
4x stoneforge mystic
3x edric, spymaster of trest
3x true-name nemesis

spells:
4x daze
4x brainstorm
4x force of will
4x swords to plowshares
1x sylvan library
1x batterskull
1x sword of fire and ice
1x umezawa jitte

lands:
4x wasteland
4x windswept heath
4x flooded strands
4x tundra
4x tropical island
1x karakas

sideboard:
3x thalia, guardian of thraben
2x meddling mage
3x rest in peace
1x gaea's blessing
1x manriki-gusari
1x llawan, cephalid empress
1x path to exile
2x pithing needle
1x supreme verdict


My sideboard is really metagame dependant as there is 2x merfolks and 2x miracles in the top players at the local game shop. The lone gaea's blessing has been wonderful so far escaping the combo high tide (yes still see play !) and imperial painter.

[Bosque]

Has anyone considered running some number of Dig Through Time or other cards that interact with, return from, or play from the graveyard? If one were to up the Looter count to 4 it seems you could be filling up your yard at a reasonably quick pace and might be able to profit from doing so.

Then we're at risk of hurting ourselves with RIP (and being vulnerable to it), but since we're looting anyhow I just thought I'd mention it.

[Moroklumpen]

I'm currently putting the deck together and plan to take it to the next legacy tournament here in Oslo. Before getting the last cards I need I'm just curious about whether there's been any updates to the list as played by Bahra or if anyone else have any recommendations based on experience with the deck. Also, I wonder if there are any particularly bad matchups I need to know about and whether or not it's worth the effort to shore them up if they're popular around here.

[Moroklumpen]

Well, that went beyond expectations. My list was very similar to the one in the OP; The MD was +1 Mother of Runes, +1 Karakas, +1Windswept Heath, -1 Judge's Familiar, -1 Tundra, -1 Flooded Strand. Th fetchland switch was simply due to vanity; I preferred to play a Heath over a Strand rather then play 3 original Strands and a new one. Silly, I know. The Mom over Familiar was due to me not finding another copy of Familiar before the tournament started. The sideboard was also a bit tweaked, but very similar.

In round 1, I faced Deathblade. I knew this because I knew the player and I'd just lent him a Tropical Island so he'd have green mana for his DRS.

In game 1, I managed to draw out some removal, counter his essential spells and land some threats. He struggled to find a second source of blue mana, which kept Jace off the table long enough for him to be irrelevant when he did. IIRC, being on the draw, I took out my Dazes for Pithing Needle, Krosan Grips and Council's Judgment. However, game two was really a non-game as he stopped on two mana and never got anything going while I curved out with Edric and started drawing five cards per turn. In the end, his only out was to play Tasigur and hope I wouldn't realize I could simply bounce it with Karakas and kill him. Suffice to say I did and did.

In the second round, I faced UG Infect. The player was rather new to legacy, and had started the tournament with a bye. Game one was close, but I managed to keep his threats in check until I could suit someone up with Sword or Jitte (can't remember which one) and put the game out of his reach. I took out Batterskull and some Mother of Runes for Council's Judgment, Krosan Grip and possibly something more. In game 2, I kept Karakas, Wasteland, SFM, Brainstorm, Edric and 2x Force. The Forces kept him in check until I could draw another land, play SFM and get some equipped beats going. By this point his resources were pretty much depleted, and I remained in control until I could deal the last points of damage.

And now for the real challenge: An experienced miracles player. In game one I managed to resolve SFM getting SoFI, and then resolve more threats than he could answer. Eventually he succumbed. I sided in Needle, Grip, Judgment and Envelop for StP and Jitte. Again, I managed to land SoFI, which let me pressure him effectively with just a handful of creatures. At one point, he played something I couldn't let resolve (either something bad for me or a counter for something good for me), but my only counters were double Daze and he had two untapped lands. Fetchlands. Enter Wasteland; with his spell on the stack I wasted one of his fetches. Naturally, he activates it in response. In response to that, I Daze and then Daze again when he fetches and pays. In the end, I untap with lethal on board; he plays Clique and targets himself to miracle Terminus. I Envelop and it's over.

In the last round I face a fairly experienced RUG Delver player. In game 1 I keep Trop, Misty, Mom and some other stuff on the draw. I fetch Tundra and play Mom. He kills (or counters) her and wastes the Tundra. I play the Trop, he cantrips into another Wasteland and destroys it. I don't draw enough lands to stabilize in time and the first game loss of the day is a fact. I side out my Forces for RiP and some other stuff. Game 2 is practically the opposite; I pretty much nut draw him out of the game. I switch the sideboarding around a bit, taking in 2x Force for 2x Daze. In game 3 I'm about to outclass his Goyf with SFM when he lands Grim Lavamancer. Before I can get anyone equipped, he starts picking my team apart and the goyf starts taking chunks out of my life total. Just as I'm about to fall into burn range, the top of my deck delivers a Brainstorm. Which delivers Rest in Peace. He can't find a counter, and since the mancer is all out of lava all of a sudden it's GG when I land a creature.

So, 4-0 in matches, 8-1 in games. I like this deck.

[Tenbin]

I took the deck out for another spin this Friday in a trial for the Swedish Championship in Legacy. MD was the one in OP -1 Stoneforge Mystic +1 Qasali Pridemage. I never had a problem finding my equipment and several times had good use of a MD Artifact/Enchantment hate.

SB:
1 Containment Priest (would've had more but only have 1)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Detention Sphere
1 Pithing Needle
2 Council's Judgment
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm

Round 1: Junk Depths
Game 1 was rough, he destroyed my Batterskull and my Sword, got a Marit Lage and at one point a 14/14 Scavenging Ooze. Thankfully I had plows for both of them due to Looter il-Kor and Edric drawing me a bunch of cards. I ended up having about 10 cards left in my library before I managed to get the kill

Game 2 I managed to get a good board presence early but game 1 had taken so long that we went to time

1-0, 1-0 in games

Round 2: Miracles

Game 1 he got stuck on too few lands and I stuck a Hierarch and a Batterskull. No issues.

Game 2 he managed to Terminus me and get a Counterbalance up. Sadly he missed my Stoneforge and the subsequent Batterskull.

2-0, 3-0 in games

Round 3: UR Delver

Game 1 I try to do what the deck wants to do, he shut me down and got pyromancer beats going, easy win for him.

Game 2 I mull to 5 due to no lands. turn 1 Wasteland is met by his wasteland, my fetch is met by Stifle. Easy win for him

2-1, 3-2 in games

Round 4:
Due to the tournament being small we could draw this round and still make top-8. We didn't play it out as my opponent was famished.

Quarter-finals: Reanimator

Game 1 I FoW'd a turn 1 Entomb and he didn't manage to get anything into the graveyard with his Careful Studies.

Game 2 Started out shaky for me, I got some beats in, he reanimated a Griselbrand who went out to the farm. I had a great hand of 2 Flusterstorms and 1 Spell Pierce for any other shenanigans he'd be up to. He managed to reanimate another Griselbrand which put him at 1 life, on my turn I Council's Judgmented him and he couldn't stop my counters.

3-1, 5-2 in games

Semi-finals: Omnitell

Game 1: I got two Judge's Familiar, a Hierarch and a Jitte on the table before I - like the pro I am - shuffled my hand into my library when fetching a Tundra. Got a warning from the Judge for that play. The familiars were critical to stopping his combo this game.

Game 2: He got stuck on lands even after digging deep, always a bummer to win those games since you know exactly how shit it feels when your deck just doesn't come together (see game 2 against UR Delver)

4-1, 7-2 in games

Finals: Elves
I was very happy about facing elves in the finals as the other deck was the same UR Delver that dismantled me in the Swiss rounds.

Game 1: I get a Jitte going together with Wastelands to impede his mana, this proved successful, I managed to dismantle him this game. Hierarch was a critical turn 1 play to get the ramp necessary to be able to wasteland him as much as I did.

Game 2: He obliterates me as Elves is wont to do, no chance.

Game 3: I stick a turn 2 TNN and get the beats going, keep a FoW+Blue card in my hands against his terrifying shenanigans. He durdles a bit with Elvish Visionary and Wirewood Symbiote, drawing a bunch of cards. I contemplated countering the Visionary the first time he played it but decided against it, bad call?

Anyway, I get him down to 4 life, thus prompting him to do SOMETHING for his next turn. He glimpses, I went deep into the tank on this one, eventually figuring that if I countered it and he had Natural Order I'd be screwed as he had a sufficient amount of creatures to kill me with Craterhoof Behemoth whereas a Glimpse turn CAN brick. So I let it pass and watched as a thousand nations of the elvish empire descended upon me.

After the first glimpse came a second, many cards were drawn. He did however not manage to go infinite and with 2 mana in the pool and no other sources left he tried to Crop Rotation. At this point I decided to use my Force of Will, hoping to stop the madness and get the win.

It turned out to be the correct play. Had I not forced he'd have gotten a Cradle and hardcast a Behemoth and wiped me off the map. A very stressful turn!

5-1, 9-3 in games

I won a Scrubland and a bye to the SC in Legacy later this year, can't complain!

The deck performed very well, Judge's Familiar was amazing against Omni-Tell, Looter against Creature-based decks and Edric against most everything! I was very happy with 3 Stoneforge Mystic and 1 Qasali, being a deck that plays 3 equipments I never had issues finding one. Not super happy with Mother of Runes, she often fell flat in this tournament. Suggestions on 1-drops to exchange her with?

[Kanti]

Maybe just add another Birds and another True-Name Nemesis? Then you have 5 mana-dorks for your would be 6 two-drops, and have two more great targets for all that equipment. Heck, maybe even add a Birds, just the Qasali, and slap in x2 Trygon Predator?

[Tenbin]

Maybe just add another Birds and another True-Name Nemesis? Then you have 5 mana-dorks for your would be 6 two-drops, and have two more great targets for all that equipment. Heck, maybe even add a Birds, just the Qasali, and slap in x2 Trygon Predator?

I think I might actually try -2 Mother of Runes, +1 Bird +1 Trygon! Another evasive beater that can wreck his shit sounds enticing.

[presquepartout]

It turned out to be the correct play. Had I not forced he'd have gotten a Cradle and hardcast a Behemoth and wiped me off the map. A very stressful turn!

You could've just FoW'd the Craterhoof?

[Tenbin]

You could've just FoW'd the Craterhoof? he had two, so letting him get the cradle with the Crop Rotation would've given him 17 mana and ample time to find the second one.

[Kanti]

Yay. I honestly opened this thread up, read through it a little, and read someone running Trygons. Seeing as you said you slapped in Qasali to help deal with artifacts/enchantments I figured I'd suggest it, especially as I never like to run just one way to deal with problem permanents in my decks, but two to three ways. Birds also just seemed amazing with all the Swords, and can even work with Jitte if you are running 4-5 exalted critters. Some number of Ponders doesn't seem bad either.

[Bahra]

Glad to see people are still playing this deck and are doing well.

I plan to get back to this deck soon, and I will probably do a few streams with it as well.

If you're unhappy with Mother of Runes I suggest just running a couple Ponder instead, it's a very good card in this deck still although we do want to spend our first few turns setting up with playing creatures.

[weakrider]

BBD has recently been playing an admittedly flawed four-color Collected Company deck. Is there any possibility that Collected Company could be a good fit in this deck? Potential cuts being Batterskull and some number of Forces/Dazes? Probably need to cut 4-6 non creature spells to add 3-4 CCs and 1-2 creatures. Or is the juice just not worth the squeeze?

[frenadol]

Hey, I just discovered this thread and I absolutely love your work Bahra from what I've been reading so far.

I've been trying to develop a fun and viable Fish deck since 2013, with this list (before TNN was released)



2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Mother of Runes
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

2 Arid Mesa
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland


Main differences with yours being use of Aether Vial instead of Hierarch to accelerate the board (and thus being able to be UW), and Ninja to exploit the EOT triggers and gain CA instead of Edric.

I've experimented with a lot of other builds, like Bant with Edric (very similar to yours, but still with Vial instead of Hierarch) but in the end I've always gone back to UW since I think the EOT creatures + Ninja of the Deep Hours is an angle still worth exploring. Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage all benefit greatly from the interaction.

One very interesting build I've toyed with is using Spellstutter Sprite as main countermagic (with the help of Ninja + Vials) with sideboard FoW's, allowing for Thalia in the maindeck, thus being able to fit more creatures in the deck. It makes for a style quite similar to Death and Taxes.

[Bosque]

I've been trying a version with a light black splash for DRS activation and have been experimenting with tossing in one or two Baleful Strix as well. Adding some Thoughtseize to the board as general answers and seeing hands for Meddling Mage also in board. Trying a couple of Armageddon in the board as well since we run dorks, and if our game plan is going even remotely according to plan we should be able to draw out of our land loss well before our opponent. The mana base can be a little awkward Underground Sea might be a better move than Scrubland, but Karakas and Cavern of Souls can just be so good (naming Rogue is surprisingly decent in this deck).

2 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Judge's Familiar
2 Looter il-Kor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Baleful Strix

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Armageddon
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thoughtseize

[Bahra]

Hey, I just discovered this thread and I absolutely love your work Bahra from what I've been reading so far.

Main differences with yours being use of Aether Vial instead of Hierarch to accelerate the board (and thus being able to be UW), and Ninja to exploit the EOT triggers and gain CA instead of Edric.

I've experimented with a lot of other builds, like Bant with Edric (very similar to yours, but still with Vial instead of Hierarch) but in the end I've always gone back to UW since I think the EOT creatures + Ninja of the Deep Hours is an angle still worth exploring. Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage all benefit greatly from the interaction.

One very interesting build I've toyed with is using Spellstutter Sprite as main countermagic (with the help of Ninja + Vials) with sideboard FoW's, allowing for Thalia in the maindeck, thus being able to fit more creatures in the deck. It makes for a style quite similar to Death and Taxes.

Cool, Spellstutter Sprite is actually not a bad card, I definitely would like to try that out. I don't know about the ninja though, that's probably too much of a mana investment. Æther Vial and Thalia seems like they could work as well. I have a ton of different Noble Fish decklists in mind right now but last night I played a DE with the stock list. I went 3-1 and would've 4-0'd if not for misclicking on a Mother of Runes activation, that was rough. I wouldn't have had a chance vs. BUG without Rest In Peace, and I think that card is just so good so it's hard for me to give it up in the versions I'm considering.

R1: Infect 2-1
R2: ANT 2-0
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: Shardless BUG 1-2 misclick



I've been trying a version with a light black splash for DRS activation and have been experimenting with tossing in one or two Baleful Strix as well. Adding some Thoughtseize to the board as general answers and seeing hands for Meddling Mage also in board. Trying a couple of Armageddon in the board as well since we run dorks, and if our game plan is going even remotely according to plan we should be able to draw out of our land loss well before our opponent. The mana base can be a little awkward Underground Sea might be a better move than Scrubland, but Karakas and Cavern of Souls can just be so good (naming Rogue is surprisingly decent in this deck).

2 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Judge's Familiar
2 Looter il-Kor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sygg, River Cutthroat
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Baleful Strix

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Armageddon
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thoughtseize

I think your deck list is a little all over the place. Sygg, River Cutthroat is not a card I want to play, especially when we're often just attacking for 1 or 2 in the air. 2 Noble Hierarch 2 Deathrite Shaman? You want 4 of either one or both might even be a consideration. 3 Stoneforge Mystic? Even if the deck is highly synergy based, you absolutely want 4 copies of the best 2 drop ever printed.

[Julian23]

best 2 drop ever printed.

When it comes into play, it's like it had Haste, Vigilance AND a one-shot Edric in play.

http://i.imgur.com/nr7BAf0.png

[HSCK]

Cool, Spellstutter Sprite is actually not a bad card, I definitely would like to try that out. I don't know about the ninja though, that's probably too much of a mana investment. Æther Vial and Thalia seems like they could work as well. I have a ton of different Noble Fish decklists in mind right now but last night I played a DE with the stock list. I went 3-1 and would've 4-0'd if not for misclicking on a Mother of Runes activation, that was rough. I wouldn't have had a chance vs. BUG without Rest In Peace, and I think that card is just so good so it's hard for me to give it up in the versions I'm considering.

R1: Infect 2-1
R2: ANT 2-0
R3: Miracles 2-1
R4: Shardless BUG 1-2 misclick




I think your deck list is a little all over the place. Sygg, River Cutthroat is not a card I want to play, especially when we're often just attacking for 1 or 2 in the air. 2 Noble Hierarch 2 Deathrite Shaman? You want 4 of either one or both might even be a consideration. 3 Stoneforge Mystic? Even if the deck is highly synergy based, you absolutely want 4 copies of the best 2 drop ever printed.

What kind of variants are you thinking of?

[frenadol]

I got a 1/2 place today with the following list, it's basically a Death and Taxes shell with a lot of blue. And some sideboard countermagic! Thought you guys might be interested:


4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Rest in peace
1 Propaganda
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Meddling Mage
1 Engineered Explosives


Detailed explanation of the deck and stuff is already in the MTGS DnT thread so I won't repeat it: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes?comment=12131

Tons of fun to play!

[Qweerios]

I got a 1/2 place today with the following list, it's basically a Death and Taxes shell with a lot of blue. And some sideboard countermagic! Thought you guys might be interested:


4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Meddling Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

Sideboard
2 Rest in peace
1 Propaganda
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Meddling Mage
1 Engineered Explosives


Detailed explanation of the deck and stuff is already in the MTGS DnT thread so I won't repeat it: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes?comment=12131

Tons of fun to play!

I played a similar deck where I had Spirit of the Labyrinth mainboard in order to lock my opponent out with Karakas and Clique. I would definitely favor Spirit over Meddling Mage as a mainboard card. -1/-1 effects hit this deck pretty hard though. Daze isn't half bad in this shell either.

[frenadol]

I played a similar deck where I had Spirit of the Labyrinth mainboard in order to lock my opponent out with Karakas and Clique. I would definitely favor Spirit over Meddling Mage as a mainboard card. -1/-1 effects hit this deck pretty hard though. Daze isn't half bad in this shell either.

Clique and SotL certainly looks like a nice interaction, I might try it sometime. But as you said, one of the main rules you must obey when building this kind of decks is to always try to reduce your exposure to sweepers and other hard to deal with removal. That's why one of my original choices, Spellstutter Sprite, had to be cut, aside from other reasons. Meddling Mage is pretty good against blue decks mainly, and a very large chunk of the meta is composed of those decks. Being able to block Swords to Plowshares against Patriot or Miracles will pave you the way to a win very easily without needing much complicated setup, that's one of the reasons I like Pikula so much, just throw a roadblock on the opponent's face and deal the 20 damage you need to win :laugh:

[Bahra]

I just revised the front page. Should be more like a "primer" now. I will continue to add things, especially once I pick up the deck again shortly (probably will play it a lot AFTER GP Lille where I'm playing D&T).

If you have anything to add please let me know. Preferably through a PM as I would not like to clog up the thread with discussions about how to set up the front page.

[Bahra]

I am streaming a legacy daily event on Magic Online with Noble Fish right now.

Tune in at http://www.twitch.tv/bahra_ Thank you!

[HSCK]

Are you going to be streaming this deck now that GP Lille is over?

[Bahra]

Are you going to be streaming this deck now that GP Lille is over?

I doubt it, there's not really room for small creature decks in legacy at the moment. If/when Dig Through Time is banned I'll probably revisit the deck once again.

[Mirrislegend]

Has this deck been updated to handle the newest top tier decks: Grixis Delver and Mentor Miracles?

[frenadol]

I played this deck in a small 8-man event (4 rounds no playoffs). Went 3-1 but still got first place because of tiebreakers.

My list was the same maindeck as the OP but -2 Looter Il-Kor +1 Collected Company +1 True-Name Nemesis

My sideboard was:

1 Krosan Grip
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Manriki-Gusari
3 Rest in Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm


Matchups were:

2-0 MUD. Kept a risky hand of 6 land plus SoFaI, 2 of which were Wastelands, and got rewarded. Managed to mana screw the opponent and take the game. Game 2 was similar but I actually had stuff to play from the beginning, like two Dazes and a SFM into SoWaP.

2-1 BUG Delver. Game 1 I got a Batterskull out pretty fast and coupled it with an Edric and a couple Owls and drew like 15 cards before the opponent decided to go to game 2 even though he still couldve stalled for a couple turns because DRS lifegain OP. Games 2 and 3 were just a contest for how many Wastelands we could draw.

2-1 Patriot Stoneblade. Game 1 he got manascrewed, game 2 I did. Game 3 opponent kept a cute hand with SFM and durdly stuff but no countermagic. I kept 3 lands, Hierarch and 3 TNN. Resolved them all.

1-2 4c Delver. Game 1 got fast Battersull online and took it to the win with double FoW backup. Games 2 and 3 he really went hard on the Wastelands, which I didn't even know he had.


Overall I had fun playing this deck, Bant is my favourite color combination and I believe this deck is the best build for Legacy using these three colors right now. But most of the time the deck just played out like regular UW Stoneblade with Hierarch acceleration, and Edric was mostly just a win more, but he's always nice to have. I'm not too sure of the superiority of this deck compared to mainstream lists like Patriot Stoneblade but it's still very viable and most importantly, fun to play. I tested Collected Company was a CA engine in place of more common stuff like DTT, since I was already playing green, the list packs a lot of creatures and it didn't rely on the graveyard.

Had a great day overall, will keep playing this deck just to play something that is not Death and Taxes, which I've already been playing nonstop for years.

[itrytostorm]

Bahra, you got your wish. Updated list?

[HSCK]

Haha, I was thinking the same thing.

[Moroklumpen]

An updated list would be sweet. I was just thinking about putting this baby back together and would love to hear people's thoughts on where to take it.

[itrytostorm]

// Deck: Noble Fish (60)

// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Judge's Familiar
2 Looter il-Kor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Collected Company
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Artifacts
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Seal of Primordium
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique


Let's get the ball rolling.

[HateKnuckle]

While looking at these cards I realized something. Edric, TNN, and Looter all share the rogue type. How interesting. What synergizes with rogues?

-Cloak and dagger does but it doesn't really help TNN much.
-What about Thieve's Fortune? Perhaps considering there is a good chance that we will do damage with a rogue. The only problem is that we don't benefit from having Tarmogoyf get bigger from having a tribal in the grave.
-Jhessian Thief? Perhaps as Prowess helps it not die to a bolt and gets in a bit more damage.
-Invisible Stalker? Probably just a worse TNN.

If we had more cards with prowl then this could be a real strategy but probably not until then.

Another idea I had was to maximize the card drawing effect from Edric. Cards that do this are those that add extra creatures onto the battlefield such as Brimaz and Geist of Saint Traft. The only problem being Brimaz loses to Karakas. I imagine that if we were to Wasteland a target land then that would end up being it. I'm not sure of any other cards that do this but I can imagine that there are a few.

Another idea that was though up here was Cold-Eyed Selkie. A cool idea but probably not the most sound as it's the only card with that effect. Nothing else can do its job so it ends up being too important to die. Of course with Cloak and Dagger on the field that becomes a harder thing to achieve for our opponent but still not impossible. An interesting idea to be worked out in testing really.

Thoughts?

[HSCK]

Bit of a necro, but I think this archetype might have some life in it with Spell Quellers and Leovolds as two three drops that can possibly fit in here.

[Whitefaces]

Bit of a necro, but I think this archetype might have some life in it with Spell Quellers and Leovolds as two three drops that can possibly fit in here.

Check out the Bant thread in the established section if you haven't, some similar things going on.

[kaluma]

Bit of a necro, but I think this archetype might have some life in it with Spell Quellers and Leovolds as two three drops that can possibly fit in here.

don't know if this thread is totally dead or not, but I have been playing a BUG version in a couple leagues and it's been real good! no longer a rest in peace deck, but vial is very strong and most of your individual threats are good standing alone.

maindeck:
2 judges familar
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
4 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis
2 leovold, emissary of trest
3 edric, spymaster of trest

4 brainstorm
4 aether vial
4 abrupt decay
2 daze
1 umezawa's jitte
4 force of will

4 wasteland
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
1 forest
1 island
1 swamp
1 karakas

sideboard (still a work in progress, but it's been okay):
1 tormod's crypt
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
1 thoughtseize
1 pithing needle
1 disfigure
2 marsh casualties
1 scavenging ooze
1 skylasher (probably too cute)
1 winter orb
1 liliana of the veil
1 garruk relentless

[Moroklumpen]

I've been playing Bahra's old list from time to time, and I've had a lot of fun and a fair bit of success with it. I'm planning to dust it off again this week, and I'm thinking about trying some Spell Quellers in the Clique/Nemesis maindeck slots. Are there any other updates you guys have tried that worked well, other than dipping into other colors?

[movingtonewao]

I've been going back to straight up U/W. If anyone here is still active in playing this deck do shoot me a PM, it is very quiet here so it would be nice to have someone to bounce ideas off.

[HSCK]

This definitely seems to be a good time to try creature decks.

[3xal]

Has anyone tried Noble Fish lately?

I tried building a version on Tapped Out at http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tropical-fish-3/ .





2x Dryad Arbor
3x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
2x Island
1x Karakas
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Wasteland
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Nissa, Steward of Elements
4x Coiling Oracle
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Quirion Ranger
3x True-Name Nemesis
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Spreading Seas
1x Sylvan Library
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
1x Stifle

[MTGPlayer]

I had some good results in the past playing Noble Fish and I was thinking of trying this list. Anybody have any thoughts or feedback?

4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Spellstutter Sprite
1 Looter Il-Kor
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Spell Queller
2 Edric

4 StP
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
1 Smuggler’s Copter
1 Tamiyo

4 Wasteland
2 Tundra
3 Trop
1 Savannah
1 Island
9 Fetch


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bahra]

Taking the following list in a league soon, after I 4-1'd with a very similar list on my stream a few hours ago. I think this list is a slight improvement :)

https://i.imgur.com/PGPsg59.jpg

[Stryfo]

Since you're on 1 TNN and 3 Leo, have you considered 4 BoP + X Hierarch as opposed to 4 Hierarch + X BoP? I think that this deck getting it's mana right is probably going to be a bit more powerful than exalted triggers. I could be wrong, but when I was watching you play earlier, you were going wide a lot more than going big, so the exalted trigger wasn't doing much. If you had more TNNs I think the exalted triggers are a lot more relevant, but with only one I'm not sold.

[FTW]

Is white still needed? You're just using it for Lingering Souls and StP and SB stuff. Meanwhile your only white-producing land is 1 Tundra (very easy to get Wasted off your only white source). Due to what's probably suboptimal fetchland diversification, only 4/8 fetches can even find Tundra (but all 8 can find Tropical, USea, Bayou, Forest and Dryad), so many games you won't even find a white-producing land. The manabase just seems weak.

If you want to stay 4c, should that Tundra be a Savannah? Or should the 4 Catacombs be 2 Catacombs + 2 Windswept Heath? (6 fetches for Tundra, 6 fetches for USea, 8 for Tropical, Bayou, Forest and Dryad).

Could white be dropped?
-4 Swords
-3 Souls
-1 Daze
-2 Noble
+4 Mausoleum Wanderer
+2 Birds of Paradise
+2 Abrupt Decay
+1 Dismember
+1 Fatal Push