[JOU] Journey into Nyx Spoiler discussion

[Barook]

Spoiler season has started!

Current Spoiler (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/550925-journey-into-nyx-spoiler-15-165)

Too bad JOU continues the tradition of Threos block and has nothing really worth discussing so far.

MOD EDIT: Just as a heads-up, let's try to avoid yet another spoiler season where everyone takes a giant liquid dump on WotC/MaRo/whoever because they don't like the set. If you don't like the set, "I don't like this set," is sufficient. Thanks!

[Malakai]

Dakra Mystic is an incredible card. I hope it makes it in standard.

[Lemnear]

Right ANOTHER Kicker-variant, MaRo? Go take a relaxing vacation and spend some time with your family.

[Allcoin]

I like hall of triumph in some sort of casual standard deck, also so far looks like I'll be drafting more MINOTAURS yet again.

[rufus]

Eidolon of Blossoms has potential. Unlike Verduran Enchantress it doesn't require you to cast the spells, so the interaction with something like Replenish or Cleansing Meditation could do interesting things.

[TsumiBand]

I dunno, that Green dude that doubles its counters is kind of an uber-Chameleon Colossus. I *like* Chameleon Colossus. Pro-black is the lamest protection anyway, especially now that the only kind that matters is TNN's pro-player, so the loss of an ability don't bother me none.

That page links to another one with some leeched images, and some potentially interesting equipment as well. Depending on what the rest of the card says, Bow of the Hunter might be an interesting complement to an SFM package - it taps to Shock a creature/player (for free), equips for 2, and the rest of the text (including casting cost) is intentionally removed. Hmmmmm.

Black is so weird, Black y u get another 2/1 for B. That Bestow cost fucking sucks. Weird Wrath variant too; 4BB to blow up all non-enchantment creatures? I'll take another 50 cent Wrath for EDH, sure.

Hall of Triumph is not the literal worst Crusade variant I've ever seen. It's one-sided at least; 'creatures you control of the color of your choice', yeah sure fine whatever.

The first round of spoilers is almost never anything truly impressive anyway, who cares if the first 15 are not great. Strive and Constellation are the terriblest keywords for Magic cards ever, though

[trollking21]

Black is so weird, Black y u get another 2/1 for B. That Bestow cost fucking sucks. Weird Wrath variant too; 4BB to blow up all non-enchantment creatures? I'll take another 50 cent Wrath for EDH, sure.

For standard you'll play 2/1's for 1 all day and having bestow is just bonus. Ill play the shit out of that in standard

[Barook]

That page links to another one with some leeched images, and some potentially interesting equipment as well. Depending on what the rest of the card says, Bow of the Hunter might be an interesting complement to an SFM package - it taps to Shock a creature/player (for free), equips for 2, and the rest of the text (including casting cost) is intentionally removed. Hmmmmm.
Those equipments are Hero cards. Nothing to see here since you can't play them in Legacy.

[TsumiBand]

For standard you'll play 2/1's for 1 all day and having bestow is just bonus. Ill play the shit out of that in standard

Eh I guess, I definitely like that Rakdos guy, the 2/2 for :br: that can't block. Paying :3::b: to give a dude a drawback though, weird.


Those equipments are Hero cards. Nothing to see here since you can't play them in Legacy.

Dammit. :/

[trollking21]

Eh I guess, I definitely like that Rakdos guy, the 2/2 for :br: that can't block. Paying :3::b: to give a dude a drawback though, weird.


It's just about reaching a critical mass of 2 power 1 drops there. Being to make a big-ush guy bigger is actually pretty relevant. This is like herald of torments brother. It'll see play in standard. But that's it

[Finn]

I kinda like the Eidolon of Blossoms for Enchantress. Enchantress' Presence does not draw a card for itself. And this can attack or block.

[Barook]

I kinda like the Eidolon of Blossoms for Enchantress. Enchantress' Presence does not draw a card for itself. And this can attack or block.
Blocking might be relevant in some corner cases, but when does Enchantress bother to attack?

Replacing itself is nice, but being a creature is also a trade-off between AD-immunity and being killable with every other common removal spell as long as growth isn't out.

I'm not an Enchantress player - maybe as a single GSZ-target at best? 4CC is still alot to ask for.

[Lemnear]

I kinda like the Eidolon of Blossoms for Enchantress. Enchantress' Presence does not draw a card for itself. And this can attack or block.

You gain the fragility of being a creature for an additional mana. Argothian Enchantress + GSZ + Enchantress Presence still has no contender in Eidolon

[Technics]

What is with the obsessive desire to turn every single mechanic that goes on more than 1 card into a keyword? All cards with the same keyword don't even do identical things. Could you imagine if they did this back in the day?

G
Llanowar Elf
Creature Elf
Generate - You may tap this creature to add G to your mana pool.
1/1


BU
Cavern Harpy
Creature Harpy
Gating - When this comes into play return a creature that shares a color with -this- to your hand.
Pay 1 life: Return -this- to your hand.
1/1

[Nonex]

You gain the fragility of being a creature for an additional mana. Argothian Enchantress + GSZ + Enchantress Presence still has no contender in Eidolon

Not to mention you don't get anything when enchantments get countered. Anything that happens on casting rather than resolution will always have an appeal. That said, I'd rather have Eidolon of Blossoms over GSZ. At least this one doesn't get shut down by Engineered Plague and draws cards off Enchantresses.

The bad thing is that it's been ages since Enchantress's Presence got printed. I get the impression we'll have to wait another handful of years before we see something with "cast enchantment -> draw card" again.

[Aggro_zombies]

Eh I guess, I definitely like that Rakdos guy, the 2/2 for :br: that can't block. Paying :3::b: to give a dude a drawback though, weird.
AFAIK you can bestow this on your opponent's guy to Falter the dude on a critical turn.

[TsumiBand]

AFAIK you can bestow this on your opponent's guy to Falter the dude on a critical turn.

O__________O

Durp! Had not considered that.

In a world where 4 mana is a fair price for removal…

Well okay then, maybe it's not the literal worst.

Have we hit critical mass for the 2-power for 1 Black mana creatures yet? I want to play Swamp > Ritual > Ritual > 4 dudes.

[Aggro_zombies]

The fact that it's a minotaur also helps make Minotaurs a real(er) deck in Standard. The colors are kind of rough, though.

[Esper3k]

Dakra Mystic is a pretty interesting poke in the eye to Miracles.

[Tammit67]

Dakra Mystic is a pretty interesting poke in the eye to Miracles.

Yeah it is easily the most interesting of the albeit small sample of cards I've encountered today

[Dice_Box]

I think I will run Extinguish all hope in my Dredge sideboard. I can see it as a useful meta card acting like a wrath against some decks. Granted, it's not the greatest, but it could be fun. Nothing else in the spoilers so far has exciteted me.

[Aggro_zombies]

Not sold on Mystic.

In Merfolk, it attacks for as much damage as Cursecatcher, but unlike Cursecatcher you can't beat down and use the ability at the same time. Outside of the Miracles matchup, Mystic is also pretty poor as a creature, being basically a vanilla 1/1 for one that gets buffed by your tribal synergies.

In decks that aren't Merfolk, Mystic is even worse.

I guess you could sideboard into Mystic vs. Miracles, but...is that really the best matchup-specific card you can find? Your opponent can get around it pretty easily via Brainstorm and it dies to pretty much any targeted removal spell they care to run if it starts to get too irritating.

[JPoJohnson]

Not sold on Mystic.

In Merfolk, it attacks for as much damage as Cursecatcher, but unlike Cursecatcher you can't beat down and use the ability at the same time. Outside of the Miracles matchup, Mystic is also pretty poor as a creature, being basically a vanilla 1/1 for one that gets buffed by your tribal synergies.

In decks that aren't Merfolk, Mystic is even worse.

I guess you could sideboard into Mystic vs. Miracles, but...is that really the best matchup-specific card you can find? Your opponent can get around it pretty easily via Brainstorm and it dies to pretty much any targeted removal spell they care to run if it starts to get too irritating.

I can see it getting play in Modern, but it's not legacy-optimal imo for merfolk.

[ReAnimator]

Eh I guess, I definitely like that Rakdos guy, the 2/2 for :br: that can't block. Paying :3::b: to give a dude a drawback though, weird.

You know it gives the creature +2/+1 if you bestow it right? Boosting a creatures power isn't usually considered a draw back.

I'm stoked for this guy! i love 2 power 1 drops (in standard and other formats) ones with upside and bonus's instead of drawbacks are pretty exciting.

[Grand Superior]

Can't say I have high expectations for Journey into Nyx (we haven't really had a truly impacting Standard set since Return to Ravnica) but I am SO glad that Constellation triggers on all enchantments and not just enchantment creatures. Might actually see something for Legacy Enchantress from the enchantment block.

[Blakroc]

I agree with everything said about the new mechanic names. Naming something as mundane as "when _______ or another enchantment enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card" is a waste of a mechanic. Constellation is such an arbitrary word that has nothing to do with gameplay. It gives the player no grasp on what the mechanic does, whereas other recent stuff like monstrosity and tribute at least connect with what they do.

[Aggro_zombies]

I agree with everything said about the new mechanic names. Naming something as mundane as "when _______ or another enchantment enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card" is a waste of a mechanic. Constellation is such an arbitrary word that has nothing to do with gameplay. It gives the player no grasp on what the mechanic does, whereas other recent stuff like monstrosity and tribute at least connect with what they do.
Constellation is an ability word for abilities that trigger off of enchantments entering the battlefield under your control.

I do think that ability words are a bit out of control these days, but that's a somewhat different issue.

[Esper3k]

Not sold on Mystic.

In Merfolk, it attacks for as much damage as Cursecatcher, but unlike Cursecatcher you can't beat down and use the ability at the same time. Outside of the Miracles matchup, Mystic is also pretty poor as a creature, being basically a vanilla 1/1 for one that gets buffed by your tribal synergies.

In decks that aren't Merfolk, Mystic is even worse.

I guess you could sideboard into Mystic vs. Miracles, but...is that really the best matchup-specific card you can find? Your opponent can get around it pretty easily via Brainstorm and it dies to pretty much any targeted removal spell they care to run if it starts to get too irritating.

I don't think you run it in Merfolk instead of Cursecatcher, but instead of stuff like Cosi's Trickster. I just think it's interesting though - not insane (as of yet).

[TsumiBand]

You know it gives the creature +2/+1 if you bestow it right? Boosting a creatures power isn't usually considered a draw back.

I'm stoked for this guy! i love 2 power 1 drops (in standard and other formats) ones with upside and bonus's instead of drawbacks are pretty exciting.

Well maybe I should have finished my thought - I understand that it gives the creatures Unholy Strength, I just dunno about making it cost :3::b: if it's also going to have the can't block drawback.

I mean look at the White equivalent -- the guy that gives +1/+2 and has Bestow :2::w: right? And there's a Red guy I think from BotG that has Bestow :1::r: and gives +1/+1 isn't there? So +2/+1 and noblocks seems overcosted even for Bestow to me. vOv I dunno.

[Amon Amarth]

MaRo said in his article that JOU would have stuff for build-around-y (my wording :P) enchantment decks. I've liked this block quite a bit so far even though it's not quite as sweet for actual cards to play in Legacy, it does give me all sorts of flavor feels, though it seems like we've missed a few opportunities in regards to that, and also quite a few cool casual cards. Plus, I really like Enchantments.

Iroas is kinda cool. I don't think anyone was surprised when his abilities were combat related. To be expected. Not bad but doesn't do much at all for me.

[TheArchitect]

Well maybe I should have finished my thought - I understand that it gives the creatures Unholy Strength, I just dunno about making it cost :3::b: if it's also going to have the can't block drawback.

I mean look at the White equivalent -- the guy that gives +1/+2 and has Bestow :2::w: right? And there's a Red guy I think from BotG that has Bestow :1::r: and gives +1/+1 isn't there? So +2/+1 and noblocks seems overcosted even for Bestow to me. vOv I dunno.

Maybe the idea was that you could also put it on opponents creature in the right situation to make the "cant block" the good thing, and the +2/+1 the disadvantage. It's still bad, but interesting for limited at least.


The mystic is a really cool card (regardless of playability). Also, Mystic + Spirit of the Labyrinth or Notion thief seems kinda cute.

I also like the return of Monstrous, as one dimensional and creature eccentric as it is, at least in limited it was a very fun and powerful feeling mechanic. It would be cool to see a legacy playable "monster".

[Barook]

What point does the excessive use of ability words/keywords have anyway?

Constellation adds nothing to the game except more text. And then Wizard claims that too many ability words/keywords confuse the people. :eyebrow:

Remind me what's the difference between an ability word and a keyword is - one actually matters (like Cycling), while the other one is useless (like Constellation), but which one is which?

[ReAnimator]

Well maybe I should have finished my thought - I understand that it gives the creatures Unholy Strength, I just dunno about making it cost :3::b: if it's also going to have the can't block drawback.

I mean look at the White equivalent -- the guy that gives +1/+2 and has Bestow :2::w: right? And there's a Red guy I think from BotG that has Bestow :1::r: and gives +1/+1 isn't there? So +2/+1 and noblocks seems overcosted even for Bestow to me. vOv I dunno.


I hear you, but i think the key difference is that the white and red one's are unplayable as far as constructed goes, whereas 2/x's for B have seen a ton of competitive play, often with drawbacks, the fact that this has a (Situational) upside is pretty big, and a huge difference.

[Dice_Box]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/qWzLAM04HA_EN.jpg

DnT getting some more love. Please, give us some new goblins next plane we move too.

[Lemnear]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/qWzLAM04HA_EN.jpg

DnT getting some more love. Please, give us some new goblins next plane we move too.

Not sure if this one is in the same league as the Swords or Jitte. It doesn't kill but remove blocked creatures and basically gives +3/+3 unblockable to your equipted creature. Is that better than protection and 2 additional effects?

[Benrobnu]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I can envision a scenario where you wouldn't just want Sword of Fire and Ice instead.

[Purgatory]

The UR God is pretty sick. Maybe Blue/Red Devotion in Standard?

[Lemnear]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I can envision a scenario where you wouldn't just want Sword of Fire and Ice instead.

You are talking about attacking with an equipted creature into TNN? I can't see a real advantage about an opposing TNN unable to block a creature equipted with SoF&I or giving him the choice to NOT throw his TNN into your attacker

[Darkenslight]

Not sure if this one is in the same league as the Swords or Jitte. It doesn't kill but remove blocked creatures and basically gives +3/+3 unblockable to your equipted creature. Is that better than protection and 2 additional effects?

You missed, both the defensive things - i.e., you can exile an Emrakul if you can block it and it's a Nevermore variant.

[lyracian]

You missed, both the defensive things - i.e., you can exile an Emrakul if you can block it and it's a Nevermore variant.
What deck, outside Tron actually casts Emrakul? I like the card but equip 3 is probably going to stop it making the cut for Legacy. However when you have things like Goblins, Jund or even Merfolk the option to block and stop them being able to cast Gofy or a Lord is interesting. Tribal decks still have Vial. It is nice that the creature is exiled before damage is dealt. Really want something with Trample so maybe Terravore can make a comeback in Maverick?

Similarly I like the God of Storms; reveal your first draw and either draw a card or lightning bolt them is a good power. However 5 CMC is a problem, I was really expecting him at 4. I can see him going alongside Ajani in Modern Patriot and I will try brewing a Miracle mix with him as an option.

[TsumiBand]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/qWzLAM04HA_EN.jpg

DnT getting some more love. Please, give us some new goblins next plane we move too.

Awwwwwww yiss

Serra Avenger used Whirlwind on Emrakul

[Adryan]

I think the Red God will see Legacy play. Its a good card in a Miracle SB for grindy MU's like Esper, Jund, BUG Delver (has only Daze as softcounters, so the only tempo MU where you can bring him) etc.

Please also note that you immediately realise that you win when he becomes a creature lol.

[Esper3k]

I thought Godsend is pretty cool (although I'm partial to neat Legendary mythics like that). Figured it was only a matter of time before we start seeing more things printed that can deal with TNN. An interesting note - when you block a Griselbrand with your Godsend-wielder, GB is going to get exiled before damage, ie: no lifelink.

[Ish]

I thought Godsend is pretty cool (although I'm partial to neat Legendary mythics like that). Figured it was only a matter of time before we start seeing more things printed that can deal with TNN. An interesting note - when you block a Griselbrand with your Godsend-wielder, GB is going to get exiled before damage, ie: no lifelink.

It doesn't do anything against TNN. TNN is protected against Godsend.


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[Esper3k]

It doesn't do anything against TNN. TNN is protected against Godsend.


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Godsend doesn't target. If they block, you can exile it.

[Ish]

Godsend doesn't target. If they block, you can exile it.

It says you may exile it. TNN has pro-you. So, is may exile it not a target?

If so, than yeah you're right. TNN has such strange wording when looking at interactions.


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[aluisiocsantos]

As far as I can remember "Protection" only evades it from being targetted or damaged by you.

[workingdude]

Not sure if this one is in the same league as the Swords or Jitte. It doesn't kill but remove blocked creatures and basically gives +3/+3 unblockable to your equipted creature. Is that better than protection and 2 additional effects?

There are some advantages (Being able to actually swing when opponent has 4/5 goyf or bigger and you have a phyrexian revoker in play. Both those equipments get stonewalled by the goyf).

I wish there was some sort of "Attach: WW" cost on it, because I think that would be bonkers. Otherwise, other people are right in that it doesnt outclass any of the top tier equipment as is, and the equip cost is just too high for right now.

[ThediscoPower]

It says you may exile it. TNN has pro-you. So, is may exile it not a target?

If so, than yeah you're right. TNN has such strange wording when looking at interactions.


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well, if my understanding is correct, I believe that if it doesn't explicitely mention the word ''target'', then it doesn't target. So technically, this equipment can exile a TNN if it blocks.

[Esper3k]

It says you may exile it. TNN has pro-you. So, is may exile it not a target?

If so, than yeah you're right. TNN has such strange wording when looking at interactions.


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As far as I can remember "Protection" only evades it from being targetted or damaged by you.

Exactly. Protection (this doesn't have anything really to do with the wording of TNN) prevents "target"ing and reduces all damage to zero. Godsend's effect neither targets nor deals damage so it can exile a blocking TNN.

It's not a perfect answer but lets you get through those TNN walls and with the +3/+3, you can probably race an attacking TNN. Sadly I do think it's just slightly too expensive for Legacy, but still a cool piece of equipment.

[Benrobnu]

You are talking about attacking with an equipted creature into TNN? I can't see a real advantage about an opposing TNN unable to block a creature equipted with SoF&I or giving him the choice to NOT throw his TNN into your attacker

I can't edit from my phone, but I meant to say, I can't envision it ever being better than a sword

[Ish]

Interesting.


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[aluisiocsantos]

I think it's a very solid sideboard piece. An equipped Flickerwisp can stonewall Griselbrand. I'd side in vs TNN decks too. Not sure it's a MD thing though.

[TsumiBand]

They need to print a card like "force target opponent to play they Blue cards as facedown 2/2s" so they can block with Show and Tell

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Ace/Homebrew]

I doubt Godsend will be playable in Legacy solely because the equip cost is :3:. That being said, I do not play :w: based equipment decks so my opinion may be wrong.

What is important here is Wizards created anti-TNN tech that TNN decks do not want to use themselves.
Nice attempt WotC! We will need a few more to hit critical mass, just like it eventually happened with grave-hate.

[Fizzeler]

the equip cost of 3 is what pushes this to be very hard to determine its playability, can Death and Taxes afford to put this in the deck or is the equip cost just to high to be reliable?

Keranos is not Legacy playable, if I wanted an enchantment in Miracles that can act as a wincon and manipulate the library I would still be playing Thassa

[Megadeus]

I think I will run Extinguish all hope in my Dredge sideboard. I can see it as a useful meta card acting like a wrath against some decks. Granted, it's not the greatest, but it could be fun. Nothing else in the spoilers so far has exciteted me.

... How do you cast it? And why would you play it over Damnation?

[Barook]

The :3: equip makes it significantly less interesting for Legacy since it competes with Swords. I wish it had some neat effect when it damages players instead of the Nevermore effect to force opponents to block.

It combines pretty well with tramplers, though.

[Cire]

It combines pretty well with tramplers, though.

maybe combine it with provoke cards? Then you can remove creatures from the battlefield and nevermore them. . .

[TsumiBand]

maybe combine it with provoke cards? Then you can remove creatures from the battlefield and nevermore them. . .

Aha! Mother fucking Deftblade Elite is finally a card? Please oh please. I want that guy to matter so so much.

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[nedleeds]

Knight of the Holy Nimbus gets through "TNN Walls" also but it's not getting played, neither will this turd of an equipment.

Fire and Ice / Jitte / Light and Shadow are superior
Body and Mind / Feast and Famine / War and Peace are in most cases superior
Behemoth Sledge is probably just better if you have access to green, and Behemoth sledge isn't that good

total POS by WotC ...

[Finn]

The Nevermore effect on Godsend is laughably narrow. In 14 rounds of Grand Prix play you are unlikely to ever see it do anything even once. You have Godsend? Fine, I just won't block. Nice Vulshok Battlegear ya got there. Even if I do block for some reason, I will just Abrupt Decay or Ancient Grudge that useless thing and cast my creature anyway. It's not like you just Extirpated me. The power level on this card is too low for Legacy by a wide margin.

[TsumiBand]

Knight of the Holy Nimbus gets through "TNN Walls" also but it's not getting played, neither will this turd of an equipment.

KotHN is actually randomly hilarious against Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. Killing two Knights with Pulse costs 5BG and everyone forgets that Flanking doesn't target.

Not saying dude is amazing, just sort of 'haha' playable.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Lemnear]

Since when is a conditional Nevermore the real deal in a world of Abrupt Decay?

[TsumiBand]

Since when is a conditional Nevermore the real deal in a world of Abrupt Decay?

Shit I dunno man, since when was any nonland permanent worth a damn when the opponent can just play a deck full of ADs?

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[Richard Cheese]

KotHN is actually randomly hilarious against Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. Killing two Knights with Pulse costs 5BG and everyone forgets that Flanking doesn't target.

Not saying dude is amazing, just sort of 'haha' playable.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Also randomly hilarious with Cursed Totem.

[Mewens]

I'm serious like cancer when I say this -- this card gives me so much hope for enchantress.

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/journey-into-nyx/22328-doomwake-giant

Doomwake Giant 4B
Constellation — When Doomwake Giant or another enchantment enters the battlefield under your control, creatures your opponents control get -1/-1 until end of turn.
4/6

It's not because of this particular card's mechanics (although I think this might be a viable one-of in enchantress specifically), but because we're finally getting a slew of enchantment creatures that don't bestow. (I know we got that cycle in Born. Constellation appears to be a central theme of the set, though.) The problem I've had with enchantress is that it's a great engine that runs on super low-grade fuel; this might offer us some high-octane goods.

At the very least, I'm excited about enchantments in EDH again. Dovescape + Enchanted Evening + constellation is going to be all of the laffing.

I think it's also worth nothing, since constellation is EtB – Heliod creates 2/1 enchantment clerics for 2WW. He also dodges Teeg, Thalia, Abrupt Decay and can be engineered to avoid Swords to Plowshares. Just saying. The clerics feed Serra's Sanctum, and they'll trigger constellation, which could be potent given the right printings – and since constellation's likely only on enchantment cards, this could increase Enlightened Tutor's cachet considerably.

[FTW]

AFAIK you can bestow this on your opponent's guy to Falter the dude on a critical turn.

This. This is mono B aggro's easiest way of dispatching with an annoying fatty just around the turn (4) where you may want to consider removing blockers instead of laying pressure. Seems great.

I mean sure, Ultimate Price also kills things for less mana, but it doesn't attack for 2 on turn 2!

[Megadeus]

The black enchantment Giant man I think could maybe help like a black stompy deck?

[rufus]

...
It's not because of this particular card's mechanics (although I think this might be a viable one-of in enchantress specifically), but because we're finally getting a slew of enchantment creatures that don't bestow. (I know we got that cycle in Born. Constellation appears to be a central theme of the set, though.) The problem I've had with enchantress is that it's a great engine that runs on super low-grade fuel; this might offer us some high-octane goods.

At the very least, I'm excited about enchantments in EDH again. Dovescape + Enchanted Evening + constellation is going to be all of the laffing.
...

I doubt they'll print anything that has a useful constellation and a low cc. I've been musing on something that cheats Eidolon of Blossoms + Omniscience into play, but Pandemonium+Saproling Burst is mostly just plain better. Though utility enchantement creature do open up possiblities for better Buried Alive+Replenish piles than 3x Purphoros

[FTW]

The black enchantment Giant man I think could maybe help like a black stompy deck?

This. Between Giant stompy man and Curse of Death's Hold and The Abyss and Tangle Wire, seems hard for opponent to win with creatures.

As for how does any nonland permanent beat a world of ADs? By costing 4.

If it can find enough disruption tools against counterspells and combo, Black Stompy/Stax could seriously exploit a meta that overly relies on AD to kill permanents.

[GoblinSettler]

Shit I dunno man, since when was any nonland permanent worth a damn when the opponent can just play a deck full of ADs?

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Oh dear, still laughing about a deck full of AIDs.

[Barook]

I also don't like the limitation of removing just one creature per combat phase. Taunt creatures would be hilarious with it.

The Nevermore part is probably there due to flavor since it's Elspeth's Godslayer weapon. Flavor-wise, it kills the god (exiles them since they're indestructible and prevents them from coming back).

edit: Hey, excitement! Finally a G/W-Walker, hopefully he doesn't su-

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/BdUSCjHJlz_EN.jpg

Nevermind.

[Esper3k]

I like the flavor of Godsend quite a bit. The play on the name of the weapon that permanently slays gods is also awesome. The super-first strike is also fitting for a legendary spear.

The -8 on Ajani is loltastic.

[TsumiBand]

The -8 on Ajani is loltastic.

ONE MILLLLLION LIFE
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Drevil_million_dollars.jpg

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[FTW]

If Ajani had cost 1GW, started with 2 loyalty and had an ultimate that cost -10, would probably be amazing. I really like the flexibility of some of those abilities in Standard and Modern. I mean, a Heroic deck with triple targetting off the +1 and drawing into more gas off the second ability...

But then I saw the cc..

Then again, I'm already sick of playing against SuperFriends/SuperGods/LotsODurdle in Standard anyway so more bad walkers seems good.

[Barook]

The -8 on Ajani is loltastic.
I'm kinda disappointed how the best they could come up with when they thought about a G/W-Walker ultimate was "L.O.L. - lots of life".

[Fizzeler]

Ajani is quite disappointing, that said I guess Nic Fit can still play him, but why not just Garruk 2.0 instead?

[Finn]

Sage of hours just might be broken as hell. Imagine what you could do with Varolz, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Bounty of the hunt, etc. Spend 1 mana, attack for at least 13, take two or three more turns, etc. All your dead Tarmos become Time Walks. There might be a powerful deck in there.

[Lord Seth]

Much like Elspeth, Sun's Champion, the new Ajani will probably see some reasonable play in Standard but little to none anywhere else. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

Though honestly, I do really like the "gain 100 life" for some reason. Maybe because it's just so short and to the point, in contrast to something like Jace the Mind Sculptor's ultimate. I can't think of any other ultimate that's so succinct.

[Fizzeler]

Though honestly, I do really like the "gain 100 life" for some reason. Maybe because it's just so short and to the point, in contrast to something like Jace the Mind Sculptor's ultimate. I can't think of any other ultimate that's so succinct.

I can Wildspeaker's ultimate, nothing like good old overrun right?

[Barook]

I mean, a Heroic deck with triple targetting off the +1 and drawing into more gas off the second ability...
Abilities can't trigger Heroic.

Imagine all the infinite comboes with Kor creatures or Shuko...

[Higgs]

I like the flavor of Godsend quite a bit.

Same here. Loving the art and the flavor so far.

[JDK]

5 pages and not a single Legacy relevant card...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like Ajani. Makes me wanna build a GW Highlander.

[Barook]

5 pages and not a single Legacy relevant card...
Less than 20% of the set were spoiled. Let us not get hasty here.

Although the gods are bound to suck due to their CC/devotion required and so do the Bestow creatures as far as Legacy is concerned.

[JDK]

Less than 20% of the set were spoiled. Let us not get hasty here.

Oh, you got me wrong. This was not a rant about the lack of legacy playables, but an aspersion about people discussing clearly unplayable cards.

[lyracian]

Oh, you got me wrong. This was not a rant about the lack of legacy playables, but an aspersion about people discussing clearly unplayable cards.
How are cards like Godsend "clearly unplayable"?

[Lemnear]

How are cards like Godsend "clearly unplayable"?

In terms of Legacy and better, similar cards being available

[JDK]

How are cards like Godsend "clearly unplayable"?
Swords and Jitte are real cards, you know?

btw, you seem to have a virus on your computer that automatically adds obnoxious colors into your postings. :tongue:

[rufus]

Sage of hours just might be broken as hell. Imagine what you could do with Varolz, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Bounty of the hunt, etc. Spend 1 mana, attack for at least 13, take two or three more turns, etc. All your dead Tarmos become Time Walks. There might be a powerful deck in there.

You want to play a miracles deck with Blessings of Nature and Temporal Mastery?

Reanimating Necrotic Ooze with Phyrexian Devourer and Sage of Hours in the graveyard would work probably work better. I suppose it could be an alternative to Triskelion. (AFAICT Triskelion is going to be better most of the time.)

[TsumiBand]

Cards which were once evaluated as 'unplayable' have been showing up in decks for a long time. The only surefire method I know of to prove or disprove a card's worth is to test it out.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[dunk]

How are cards like Godsend "clearly unplayable"?

Because they are essentially on the same power level as Divine Transformation.

[HammerAndSickled]

In terms of Legacy at least, there's really not much of a chance for the card at all. Maybe as a fringe card that's run in one archetype but not even optimal there, like a lot of other Death and Taxes cards. If it's not going into a deck immediately it might as well be trash. It's a tough world.

[Justin]

Yeah, how often are you going to want Godsend over Sword of Fire and Ice? Sword costs one less to equip and will sometimes get online a turn earlier. It can ignore True-Name, draw cards, and deal two damage.

[FTW]

Godsend + Master of Cruelties in Standard = LAWL

[FTW]

Abilities can't trigger Heroic.

Imagine all the infinite comboes with Kor creatures or Shuko...

Oh, right. I was just literally reading it as +1: "cast Reap What is Sown", which is amazing in GW Heroic draft. I guess it's not quite the same. Nevermind, then even Standard has fewer uses for that card.

MAYBE GW Enchantress could use it as a draw engine? Seems bad though.

[Darkenslight]

Oh, right. I was just literally reading it as +1: "cast Reap What is Sown", which is amazing in GW Heroic draft. I guess it's not quite the same. Nevermind, then even Standard has fewer uses for that card.

MAYBE GW Enchantress could use it as a draw engine? Seems bad though.

Why would you use it a Draw engine? Use it as Storm hate - "Can you get to 50 Storm? No? G3?"

[FTW]

Why would you use it a Draw engine? Use it as Storm hate - "Can you get to 50 Storm? No? G3?"

Because Enchantress vs Storm matches usually involve the storm player trying to combo on turn 10?

[Malakai]

New Ajani is the funniest card since Steamflogger Boss.

[Zllig]

Sage of hours just might be broken as hell. Imagine what you could do with Varolz, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Bounty of the hunt, etc. Spend 1 mana, attack for at least 13, take two or three more turns, etc. All your dead Tarmos become Time Walks. There might be a powerful deck in there.

I think you are on to something, and I think this might actually not be complete garbage if Bounty of the Hunt could get you to Time Walk range by itself. Just think, Blessings of Nature does it by itself, then you could use Bounty to get stuck miracles out of your hand attack for a lot and then Time Walk. Damn shame it's not 4 counters, really doubt that would be too busted but who knows.

[Lemnear]

Why would you use it a Draw engine? Use it as Storm hate - "Can you get to 50 Storm? No? G3?"

Where is the Problem in getting close to 30 storm with PIF to cast Tendrils, flashback PIF, flashback Tendrils by turn 8+ In ANT? TES can reach 50+ Tendrils and >120 goblins in the first 3 turns.

Guess who a whole store is laughing at after

[Richard Cheese]

I think you are on to something, and I think this might actually not be complete garbage if Bounty of the Hunt could get you to Time Walk range by itself. Just think, Blessings of Nature does it by itself, then you could use Bounty to get stuck miracles out of your hand attack for a lot and then Time Walk. Damn shame it's not 4 counters, really doubt that would be too busted but who knows.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ZQg8JKo_3ZQ/hqdefault.jpg
Heroic does not work that way!

9/15/2013: Heroic abilities will trigger only once per spell, even if that spell targets the creature with the heroic ability multiple times.
9/15/2013: Heroic abilities won’t trigger when a copy of a spell is created on the stack or when a spell’s targets are changed to include a creature with a heroic ability.

[Zllig]

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ZQg8JKo_3ZQ/hqdefault.jpg
Heroic does not work that way!

9/15/2013: Heroic abilities will trigger only once per spell, even if that spell targets the creature with the heroic ability multiple times.
9/15/2013: Heroic abilities won’t trigger when a copy of a spell is created on the stack or when a spell’s targets are changed to include a creature with a heroic ability.

When did I imply that it worked that way? All I'm saying that is with Blessings of Nature you'll end up with 5 +1/+1 counters, ie enough to Time Walk. Similarly, I was saying that I wish Bounty of the Hunt could get it to 5 +1/+1 counters by itself, but I said that it can't because it only gets it to 4 +1/+1 counters.

But whatever, you sure got me with your lel so fanny internet pix and large text.

[Richard Cheese]

When did I imply that it worked that way? All I'm saying that is with Blessings of Nature you'll end up with 5 +1/+1 counters, ie enough to Time Walk. Similarly, I was saying that I wish Bounty of the Hunt could get it to 5 +1/+1 counters by itself, but I said that it can't because it only gets it to 4 +1/+1 counters.

But whatever, you sure got me with your lel so fanny internet pix and large text.

Yeah I totally misread your post.

READING DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

I bet you still read it in his voice.

[Barook]

Godsend + Brimaz is almost Legacy-playable - since both are Standard- and Block-legal, I expect them to raise hell in said formats alongside Heliod who also provides nice bodies for Godsend.

[rufus]

I think you are on to something, and I think this might actually not be complete garbage if Bounty of the Hunt could get you to Time Walk range by itself. Just think, Blessings of Nature does it by itself, then you could use Bounty to get stuck miracles out of your hand attack for a lot and then Time Walk. Damn shame it's not 4 counters, really doubt that would be too busted but who knows.

EoT Insidious Dreams to stack Skill Borrower,Phyrexian Devourer (4x) and Sage of Hours is extremely resource intensive, but does allow you to swing for lethal. (IMO Triskelion is still better...)

The only thing that comes to my mind that really seems like it could work well with heroic is Rancor+Auratog.

[TsumiBand]

The combo has been staring us in the FASE.

Ajani, Mentor of Heroes

+

Sage of Hours

+

Clockspinning

=

Infinite turns with a 6/6 attacker

This combo belongs in a museum. I'm sure this will just completely wreck Modern and warp Legacy. It may even affect the way we play Pinocle and Tetris. We won't know for sure until the tournament reports come back, if there's anyone left alive to write them.

[Barook]

The combo has been staring us in the FASE.

Ajani, Mentor of Heroes

+

Sage of Hours

+

Clockspinning

=

Infinite turns with a 6/6 attacker

This combo belongs in a museum. I'm sure this will just completely wreck Modern and warp Legacy. It may even affect the way we play Pinocle and Tetris. We won't know for sure until the tournament reports come back, if there's anyone left alive to write them.
Meh, I would rather run Doubling Season in the Clockspinning slot for Planeswalker overkill. Seriously, play Ajani and gain 100 life RIGHT OFF THE BAT.

#banAjani

[TheKingslayer]

The combo has been staring us in the FASE.

Ajani, Mentor of Heroes

+

Sage of Hours

+

Clockspinning

=

Infinite turns with a 6/6 attacker

This combo belongs in a museum. I'm sure this will just completely wreck Modern and warp Legacy. It may even affect the way we play Pinocle and Tetris. We won't know for sure until the tournament reports come back, if there's anyone left alive to write them.

I have nothing to contribute but a hearty, bellowing laugh.

[Barook]

Eidolon of the Great Revel :r::r:
Enchantment Creature - Spirit (R)
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, Eidolon of the Great Revel deals 2 damage to that player.
2/2

Pyrostatic Pillar on a stick - AW YEAH!

[Tammit67]

Eidolon of the Great Revel :r::r:
Enchantment Creature - Spirit (R)
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, Eidolon of the Great Revel deals 2 damage to that player.
2/2

Pyrostatic Pillar on a stick - AW YEAH!

Gawd dammit. Casting dark ritual is getting harder and harder

[Lemnear]

Gawd dammit. Casting dark ritual is getting harder and harder

At least it is not 1R ... god damn I hate MaRo's "Creatures! Creatures! Creatures! We hate combo!" attitude

[Holly]

At least it is not 1R ... god damn I hate MaRo's "Creatures! Creatures! Creatures! We hate combo!" attitude

Implying every card ever designed is made by MaRo.. who mostly works on the fall sets iirc.

[Scott]

Possibly a needed weapon against tempo, too.

[Lemnear]

Implying every card ever designed is made by MaRo.. who mostly works on the fall sets iirc.

MaRo dictates the direction of design. The fact that creatures get spell-, enchantment- and artifact-like effects attached to them roots on his lead design philosophy. I never said he DESIGNED the card

[Barook]

At least it is not 1R ... god damn I hate MaRo's "Creatures! Creatures! Creatures! We hate combo!" attitude
Are you really complaining about red getting combo hate? Pyrostatic Pillar is hardly enough to stop Storm and this is only a bit better due to breaking parity with a body of its own. Double red isn't that easy to cast, too.

The card has potential, but we'll have to wait and see where it has its place in Legacy. Not that it's another Spirit of the Labyrinth.

While unlikely, now I hope they print Sulfuric Vortex with legs, too.

[Zombie]

I'm just sad that it shits on engine decks like Storm and Elves and leaves SnDrool untouched.

[morgan_coke]

I don't think Ajani is good, but I think he is being underestimated. The kind of deck that wants to play him also probably plays a bunch of mana accelerators, like BoP, DRS, Dryad Arbor, and/or Noble Hierarch. If Ajani hits the table turn 3 with two of those out, all of a sudden they're both real creatures, permanently. Also, he's a G/W card that offers filtering and draw. I think he's got more potential and use than you guys are appreciating. Also, 100 life is surmountable, but it's a lot less easy to surmount than you're thinking. I've killed people with 120 or so life online before. It isn't as easy as you'd think.

Again, I don't know that he's good, but I don't think he's terribad either, especially in Modern/Standard.

[Final Fortune]

Storm couldn't give two shits, no aggro-control deck in the format is ever going to play a creature for RR when they could play a creature for UW, however it's the tits in burn and any one who bad mouths a playable red creature in Legacy should be taken out to the wood shed.

I really hope they print Meekstone and Ankh of Mishra on legs too, I'm all for the spells with legs designs. WW for a 2/2 with Meekstone would be mind numbingly awesome for Death&Taxes now that I think about it, god hurry up and print that shit.

[Lemnear]

Are you really complaining about red getting combo hate? Pyrostatic Pillar is hardly enough to stop Storm and this is only a bit better due to breaking parity with a body of its own. Double red isn't that easy to cast, too.

The card has potential, but we'll have to wait and see where it has its place in Legacy. Not that it's another Spirit of the Labyrinth.

While unlikely, now I hope they print Sulfuric Vortex with legs, too.

No, i'm pretty fine with hate that isn't easily splashable like it being 1R. I'm just fed up with lazy design like kicker-variants as keyword mechanic in EVERY FUCKING EXPANSION and creatures making Sorceries, Enchantments and Artifacts completely obsolete by having all their effects and equal manacosts BUT a body IN ADDITION.

Seriously, how can peeps get excited about attaching a body to an old card? For me it's lazy design.



Edit: Hey WotC, when can I expect a Dark Ritual with a body aka Priest of Gix for B (to dodge Spell Pierce as a goodie; Edit: not bad with storm running Cabal Therapy as a playset ... lol)? I'm fine with 2/2 Infernal Tutors too...



Edit 2:

Storm couldn't give two shits, no aggro-control deck in the format is ever going to play a creature for RR when they could play a creature for UW, however it's the tits in burn and any one who bad mouths a playable red creature in Legacy should be taken out to the wood shed.

I really hope they print Meekstone and Ankh of Mishra on legs too, I'm all for the spells with legs designs. WW for a 2/2 with Meekstone would be mind numbingly awesome for Death&Taxes now that I think about it, god hurry up and print that shit.

That creature would shit on 95% of WotC's CREATURE design ... doubt that this would happen

[Barook]

Seriously, how can peeps get excited about attaching a body to an old card? For me it's lazy design.
I'm fine with bringing back old cards that don't exactly make the cut anymore as creatures.

Recycling old cards by doubling their effects/mana costs is the real cancer.



I really hope they print Meekstone and Ankh of Mishra on legs too,
Marble Titan and Zo-Zu the Punisher?

[Final Fortune]

IDK, throw it into a Commander set?

I don't mind this design approach too much to be honest, I still think spells without legs will have a place in the meta game because nobody plays Disenchant compared to Swords to Plowshares.

[Lemnear]

IDK, throw it into a Commander set?

I don't mind this design approach too much to be honest, I still think spells without legs will have a place in the meta game because nobody plays Disenchant compared to Swords to Plowshares.

This depends if you mind the creature being removed after their partly devastating EtB effect is on the stack

[TsumiBand]

No, i'm pretty fine with hate that isn't easily splashable like it being 1R. I'm just fed up with lazy design like kicker-variants as keyword mechanic in EVERY FUCKING EXPANSION and creatures making Sorceries, Enchantments and Artifacts completely obsolete by having all their effects and equal manacosts BUT a body IN ADDITION.

Seriously, how can peeps get excited about attaching a body to an old card? For me it's lazy design.



Edit: Hey WotC, when can I expect a Dark Ritual with a body aka Priest of Gix for B (to dodge Spell Pierce as a goodie; Edit: not bad with storm running Cabal Therapy as a playset ... lol)? I'm fine with 2/2 Infernal Tutors too...



Edit 2:


That creature would shit on 95% of WotC's CREATURE design ... doubt that this would happen

To be fair, its a little difficult to get away from the idea that "moar mana = moar spell" mechanic without introducing weird dependencies or just having a bunch of tribal and/or dumb triggered abilities.

I hear what you mean about kicker, but the thing is that it's really just playing off a fundamental game concept - it's a little disingenuous to so liberally apply it to everything. Its like if science goes "hey look we created a new stable element" and then someone trolls them like "bet its just stupid atoms isnt it, lol science come up with something new"

And the thing is, about a lot of those effects - honestly they suck on enchantments. They just do. Easy example - Crusade blows as an enchantment, but as a Kithkin or Merfolk it suddenly has a home. Pyrostatic Pillar is similar; it's really not amazing unless it is part of a clock, so to that end you have to pick between paying 1R to just deal damage, or paying 1R to maybe deal more. And it is not a good topdeck. At least if it has legs, it can actually do stuff.

I mean i don't disagree totally, just - i see what they did there.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Tammit67]

Storm couldn't give two shits, no aggro-control deck in the format is ever going to play a creature for RR when they could play a creature for UW, however it's the tits in burn and any one who bad mouths a playable red creature in Legacy should be taken out to the wood shed.

It's kinda like this:

Storm combo traditionally had reasonable game against:


Other combo decks since storm is generally faster
Non blue creature decks since preboard interaction was non-existent outside of discard


This was (relatively) balanced by:

Blue decks, namely counterbalance
The all in nature of the deck -> mistakes leave you very vulnerable
Hate cards being very good at what they do, albeit narrow
Bans, and many more so than other archetypes. Combo and especially storm combo upsets a lot of people.


However, the design of cards has pushed us away from considering spell engine based combo because every color is slowly gaining strong cards as countermeasures without storm gaining much. Ad nauseum and past in flames are really good at what they do, but have trouble being effective when:


Other combo decks gain speed. Reanimator/show and tell both cheat into play creatures that we once could play around, but now they can pay 14 life and draw 2 force of wills at leisure. Reanimator gets to run discard and soft countermagic in addition to their speed. Show and tell gets to run leylines in the board. Both have extremely safe manabases and targeted discard against a combo piece results in the disruption being live.

Non-blue creature decks got a huge leg up in recent years. Graveyard interaction doesn't hurt all variants of storm, but is annoying. Surgical extraction in particular can be run with minimal drawback. Deathrite shaman can keep GY engine routes in check while accelerating the opponent into more disruptive pieces. Thalia is very difficult to play through, as is Lodestone golem and Gaddock teeg. Snapcaster dodges preferred protection such as duress. Liliana curves nicely and prevents critical masses of cards. Ethersworn cannonist and grafdigger's cage are versitile and numerous. Spirit of the labyrinth is annoying

Creatures are also in general just better! Delver of secrets and Craterhoof mean you have far fewer turns before your life isn't a resource. Clique acts as both a clock and disruption while being good against other decks (that is to say its usefulness has increased).

Blue decks got increasingly better. Aside from delver/snapcaster/clique, flusterstorm and swan song saw printings. Miracles has risen, notion thief sees light play when the meta shifts. UBG delver is really difficult to beat


I'm really glad for red that a RR creature was printed that is likely legacy playable. I'm really disappointed that one of my favorite decks gets continually shat on with recent printings without unbannings or printings to help it out.

[Gheizen64]

This card won't see legacy play. Modern sure. But Legacy RR drop? Red need far more relevant cards to justify a RR drop anywhere. I like that they made it a double colored mana creature at least, less of those stupid 1X splashable anywhere cards.

[Cynicath]

I think you are on to something, and I think this might actually not be complete garbage if Bounty of the Hunt could get you to Time Walk range by itself. Just think, Blessings of Nature does it by itself, then you could use Bounty to get stuck miracles out of your hand attack for a lot and then Time Walk. Damn shame it's not 4 counters, really doubt that would be too busted but who knows.

Yeah but why turn the 'miracle Timewalk' into a 2 card combo when it already exists as a 1 card combo (http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Temporal-Mastery-Avacyn-Restored-Spoiler.jpg). Also as far as Bounty goes, is it worth -2 cards for the effect? Bounty is pretty god awful when you don't have the combo too...

[TsumiBand]

Honestly, Storm has been pooping on Magic for a really long time.

I know it is not popular to mention his name when he is in the right, but there's a reason MaRo calls the ordered list of things that should never see print ever again "The Storm Scale".

If Storm becomes worse… Magic kind of becomes better. vOv

[JDK]

This card won't see legacy play. Modern sure. But Legacy RR drop? Red need far more relevant cards to justify a RR drop anywhere. I like that they made it a double colored mana creature at least, less of those stupid 1X splashable anywhere cards.

Burn would like to have a word with you.

[rufus]

Burn would like to have a word with you.

It seems like sideboard material for burn, but it might be OK in some kind of sligh deck. Hopefully they'll print a Sulphur Elemental that hits blue creatures next.

[Cynicath]

Honestly, Storm has been pooping on Magic for a really long time.

I know it is not popular to mention his name when he is in the right, but there's a reason MaRo calls the ordered list of things that should never see print ever again "The Storm Scale".

If Storm becomes worse… Magic kind of becomes better. vOv

"Better" is subjective though. I can understand why some people don't like playing against it, but I also can see the appeal of piloting it. I happen to love playing against it, and I find it fascinating as a mechanic. I always thought of Legacy as a place where people could go to play things like Storm... Strategies that present a real challenge no matter which side of the table you're on, strategies that you can't just bash in mindlessly with/against, and a major sense of accomplishment when you do defeat them, or pilot them to victory. Storm is a mechanic that rewards dedication and intelligence, 2 traits that I really enjoy within the MtG community, and I feel like Magic will really have lost something the day Storm finally gets hated out of existence.

FYI I am not a Storm pilot (though I might be if I owned the necessary cards).

[Lemnear]

Honestly, Storm has been pooping on Magic for a really long time.

I know it is not popular to mention his name when he is in the right, but there's a reason MaRo calls the ordered list of things that should never see print ever again "The Storm Scale".

If Storm becomes worse… Magic kind of becomes better. vOv

Did MTG really become better now that Expansions like Born of the Gods have less than 9% of cards, on which the word "creature" isn't written??

When I started playing the game, WotC described the players as Wizards in an epic battle weaving fantastic magic. Later they made us Planeswalkers who summon powerful allies, but to be honest, these days I feel more like a Zoo Director for abdominations!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I miss the days when creatures were played for their stats and abilities, not for the attached sorcery-like effects.

I played Wildfire Emissary in Zoo back in 1996.
I played Serra Angel in UW Control back in 1997.
I played Soltari Priest in Crusade back in 1998.
I played... well... uhm... oh, I played Phelddagrif in Singleton back in 1999 - 2001.
I played River Boa in Marogeddon back in 2001 - 2002.
I played Troll Ascetic in Haterator back in 2006.
I played Terravore in Aggro Loam back in 2007
I played Mystic Enforcer in NQGw back in 2008.
I played Exalted Angel in Angel Stax back in 2009.
I played Sea Drake in Faerie Stompy back in 2010.

Then I switched to combo. Returning to Creatures.dec once again, I find that there are what, five beaters left in Legacy? Mongoose, Delver, Goyf, Tombstalker and KotR, is that so?
Ban Goyf, please. Nobody likes vanilla.

PS: I like the red guy, though. I'd say that "I'm really glad for red that a RR creature was printed that is likely legacy playable". But...

[Lemnear]

Returning to Creatures.dec once again, I find that there are what, five beaters left in Legacy? Mongoose, Delver, SFM, Tombstalker and DRS, is that so?
Ban Goyf, please. Nobody likes vanilla.

PS: I like the red guy, though. I'd say that "I'm really glad for red that a RR creature was printed that is likely legacy playable". But...

Fixed

[Grand Superior]

"Better" is subjective though. I can understand why some people don't like playing against it, but I also can see the appeal of piloting it. I happen to love playing against it, and I find it fascinating as a mechanic. I always thought of Legacy as a place where people could go to play things like Storm... Strategies that present a real challenge no matter which side of the table you're on, strategies that you can't just bash in mindlessly with/against, and a major sense of accomplishment when you do defeat them, or pilot them to victory. Storm is a mechanic that rewards dedication and intelligence, 2 traits that I really enjoy within the MtG community, and I feel like Magic will really have lost something the day Storm finally gets hated out of existence.

FYI I am not a Storm pilot (though I might be if I owned the necessary cards).

Better is certainly subjective, and Wizard's idea of "better" is a big part of the reason why I avoid Standard like a plague and stick to this wonderful format. I love that in Legacy you can actually choose to play zero creatures and be competitive. Storm is one of the coolest decks in the history of Magic and I'm glad that it's a part of Legacy.

On topic, Eidolon of the Great Revel is the most Legacy-playable card spoiled thus far, but I don't see it having lasting impact. Even if it is better than Pyrostatic Pillar against storm, I almost never see Pyrostatic Pillar anymore.

[FieryBalrog]

"Better" is subjective though. I can understand why some people don't like playing against it, but I also can see the appeal of piloting it. I happen to love playing against it, and I find it fascinating as a mechanic.

Yes, it's so exciting when you get to watch your opponent take a 10 minute turn 2 while you yawn and doodle on a piece of paper because you have one land out and are not playing blue. Did you die to your own Ad Nauseam yet? Thrilling mind games right there.

[TsumiBand]

Did MTG really become better now that Expansions like Born of the Gods have less than 9% of cards, on which the word "creature" isn't written??

This literally means nothing, since the set they printed right before they gifted us with Storm was 100% creatures.

Look, I've got an old Spring Tide deck collecting dust upstairs; and I've pissed and moaned about moving the game's focus to the battlefield in the past too. I get it, man. But you're so ready to fuss about new cards that you are making goofy connections between what I said about one mechanic and the creature : spell ratio about the last set. Jesus mang, you should like get a hobby to help you deal with the stress from *this* one.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Cynicath]

Yes, it's so exciting when you get to watch your opponent take a 10 minute turn 2 while you yawn and doodle on a piece of paper because you have one land out and are not playing blue. Did you die to your own Ad Nauseam yet? Thrilling mind games right there.

Well... I DO play blue so that might have something to do with my opinion that it's an engaging mechanic. I also enjoy watching my opponent jump through the hoops necessary to complete the combo (or fizzle), though I might be alone in that.

[(nameless one)]

I'm sure WotC is just doing the creature with powerful effects thing to attract the Hearthstone kids to their business.

Just like back when Vampires suddenly became a thing in MtG when that Kate Beckinsale movie and Twilight came out.

I also want to add when they introduced Morph, this was when Yugioh was picking up popularity and the Flip mechanic when Duel Masters became a thing.

[Lord Seth]

Fixed
By what definition are Stoneforge Mystic or Deathrite Shaman beaters?

[JDK]

I'm sure WotC is just doing the creature with powerful effects thing to attract the Hearthstone kids to their business.
This has been set in motion after Future Sight, though.

https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/172

[Lord Seth]

This has been set in motion after Future Sight, though.

https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/172Except that has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. At all. New World Order is just a restructuring of rarity based on complexity. I don't know why people seem to have warped it into meaning anything that's different now than in the past.

[Scott]

creatures making Sorceries, Enchantments and Artifacts completely obsolete by having all their effects and equal manacosts BUT a body IN ADDITION.


This has been set in motion after Future Sight, though.

https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/172

Tonight's challenge: name all quality noncreature, nonequipment, nonplaneswalker permanents (so, traditional artifacts and enchantments) printed in the 6 1/2 years since then.

[amalek0]

Tonight's challenge: name all quality noncreature, nonequipment, nonplaneswalker permanents (so, traditional artifacts and enchantments) printed in the 6 1/2 years since then.

I guess I'll start at Alara block then:
Dispeller's Capsule
Executioner's Capsule
Finest Hour
Font of Mythos
Maelstrom Nexus
Mark of Asylum
Mindlock Orb
Obelisk of Alara
Oblivion Ring
Relic of Progenitus
Sigil of the Empty Throne
Thopter Foundry
Time Sieve

Zendikar Block:
Amulet of Vigor
Bloodchief Ascension
Domestication
Dreamstone Hedron
Eldrazi Conscription
Eldrazi Monument
Everflowing Chalice
Expedition Map
Luminarch Ascension
Splinter Twin

Scars of Mirrodin Block
Asceticism
Birthing Pod
Caged Sun
Mimic Vat
Mirrorworks
Mox Opal
Phyrexian Unlife
Ratchet Bomb
Tempered Steel
Torpor Orb
Venser's Journal

Innistrad Block
Abundant Growth
Descent into Madness
Exquisite Blood
Grafdigger's Cage
Heartless Summoning
Intangible Virtue
Nevermore
Stony Silence

Return to Ravnica Block
Assemble the Legion
Blind Obedience
Chromatic Lantern
Detention Sphere
Ethereal Armor
Pithing Needle
Possibility Storm
Rest in Peace
Shrieking Affliction
Sphere of Safety
Underworld Connections
Unflinching Courage

Theros Block
Chained to the Rocks
God weapons
Gods? kinda sorta not-creatures?

[Lord Seth]

Tonight's challenge: name all quality noncreature, nonequipment, nonplaneswalker permanents (so, traditional artifacts and enchantments) printed in the 6 1/2 years since then.I'll take a stab at it!

Let "quality" mean "sees a fair amount of play in decent Modern or Legacy decks or would see play but are banned." So something that's great in Standard but not so much in other formats doesn't count. And while you didn't say "nonland," the requirement it be traditional artifacts and enchantments indicates we are leaving those out.

Splinter Twin (Twin), Springleaf Drum (Affinity), Bitterblossom (Faeries), Mox Opal (Affinity), Rest In Peace (general), Grafdigger's Cage (general), Omniscience (Omni-Tell), Leyline of Sanctity (general), Birthing Pod (Pod), Spreading Seas (Merfolk), Oblivion Ring (general), Detention Sphere (general), Expedition Map (Tron, 12-Post), Relic of Progenitus (general), Pyromancer's Ascension (UR Storm), Torpor Orb (general), Spider Umbra (GW Auras), Spirit Mantle (GW Auras), Hyena Umbra (GW Auras), Ethereal Armor (GW Auras), Runed Halo (general), Stony Silence (general), Intangible Virtue (BW Tokens), Phyrexian Unlife (Ad Nauseam Unlife), Thopter Foundry (ThopterSword), Shrieking Affliction (8 Rack), and Honor of the Pure (Soul Sisters) are ones I can think of. Unflinching Courage (GW Auras) if you're wiling to count it, as it's basically just Armadillo Cloak that doesn't nullify an opponent's creature if you cast it on it.

[FTW]

Eidolon of the Great Revel :r::r:
Enchantment Creature - Spirit (R)
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost 3 or less, Eidolon of the Great Revel deals 2 damage to that player.
2/2

Pyrostatic Pillar on a stick - AW YEAH!

Looks identical to something I posted in the "make a card" thread. Cool. Probably a huge coincidence. But this is exactly the sort of tempo/combo hate that red needs printed in a way that fits into red decks and does NOT fit into blue decks. I love this.

[Tammit67]

Looks identical to something I posted in the "make a card" thread. Cool. Probably a huge coincidence. But this is exactly the sort of tempo/combo hate that red needs printed in a way that fits into red decks and does NOT fit into blue decks. I love this.

I wish it had first strike so it could properly combat goyf

[Megadeus]

Looks identical to something I posted in the "make a card" thread. Cool. Probably a huge coincidence. But this is exactly the sort of tempo/combo hate that red needs printed in a way that fits into red decks and does NOT fit into blue decks. I love this.

To be fair, I think people have been begging for a pyrostatic pillar bear for awhile now

[Tyrio]

Spite of Mogis seems pretty real. Maybe as fun-ofs in RUG or something to shoot down other Goyfs or Batterskull?

[Megadeus]

Interesting card. Possibly Wish target for storm decks maybe as removal for a bear of hate? Or in Skred Red (like thats a thing right?) to bonk your own Boros Reckoners :wink:

[BVB09]

I love the new hatebear, I hope it sees a decent amount of play, but I'm not sure, It doesnt fit firectly in many strategies that already exist.
Thanks WoTC!!!!

[trollking21]

Spite of Mogis seems pretty real. Maybe as fun-ofs in RUG or something to shoot down other Goyfs or Batterskull?

Only being able to hit dudes sucks. I want to be able to done people in RUG. Matches are won by turning into a burn deck from time to time.

[Lemnear]

Only being able to hit dudes sucks. I want to be able to done people in RUG. Matches are won by turning into a burn deck from time to time.

It would be an alternate win-con in storm if this also hits players lol

[trollking21]

It would be an alternate win-con in storm if this also hits players lol

Hell dredge might be able to hit ten or more damage with it. Ya if it burned players it would probably be pretty breakable

[Barook]

The burn spell has potential due to being able to kill of Batterskulls and Goyfs. Might be a nice SB card in spell-heavy decks.

[rufus]

Hell dredge might be able to hit ten or more damage with it. Ya if it burned players it would probably be pretty breakable

It might even work with Mogg Maniac or Swans of Brynn Argol

[JDK]

Except that has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed. At all. New World Order is just a restructuring of rarity based on complexity. I don't know why people seem to have warped it into meaning anything that's different now than in the past.

How I understand it, it is not _just_ about restructuring of rarity vs complexity. It is also about shifting complexity aspects into the red zone (side-effect or not, doesn't matter).


I've talked about this before that players will do whatever the game incentivizes them to do whether or not that thing is fun. The goal of a game designer is to make the incentives move the players towards the parts of the game that are fun. Tracking lots of information is not what makes Magic fun, yet complexity applied to the wrong places can make that the focus. By stripping away the complexity at common, we were able to move the focus back to things like combat and spell casting.

[TsumiBand]

Um wut

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/140/635326816881604179.jpeg

Second Black exile target guy(s) card in two sets… a little weird. It's not playable, I don't think, it's targeted removal that costs :2::b::b:, but like… I don't know, just kind of one of those goofy "wtf color pie" things.

Does Black get to start exiling dudes nao? Is that fine? When Blue got Wrath of Hog, people got pissed even though it isn't really very good in most Constructed formats, but it was on the principle that "Blue should not exile creatures". This is a way, way more expensive alternative to such a card, but it's another weird case of a color getting something that they classically didn't really do in this way. Black exiles cards in graveyard/library, and I guess there are a couple of older cards like Ashes to Ashes that did it with the standard "pay life to do anything" mantra that Black used to have, but.. I dunno. Targeted exile removal in Black. Just feels weird mang.

Insert standard rant about how they nixed all the strongest things in Black and then went "augh this color is really hard to make different from Red yo"

[Cire]

How about:

Kruphix's Insight 2G
Sorcery
Reveal the top six cards of your library. Put up to three enchantment cards from among them into your hand and the rest of the revealed cards into your graveyard.

Maybe in enchantress or a new type of deck with at least 30 enchantments - because it's basically a draw 3 for 2G at that point.

[TsumiBand]

How about:

Kruphix's Insight 2G
Sorcery
Reveal the top six cards of your library. Put up to three enchantment cards from among them into your hand and the rest of the revealed cards into your graveyard.

Maybe in enchantress or a new type of deck with at least 30 enchantments - because it's basically a draw 3 for 2G at that point.

Geez, is Bestow beats a Real Thing in Standard? Cuz that would be insane gas for aggro

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[FTW]

Geez, is Bestow beats a Real Thing in Standard? Cuz that would be insane gas for aggro

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Yeah, there's that Naya Hexproof Auras deck that plays a lot of enchants and hates when monoblack runs Devour Flesh.
Gladecover Scout
Fleecemane Lion
Witchstalker
Boon Satyr
Ethereal Armor
Unflinching Courage
Madcap Skills
Chained to the Rocks


That deck would probably love a cheap draw spell, especially if it tweaked the base to run more enchantment-creatures.

I think the deck is a thing in Modern too (with Slippery Bogle!). But again, those decks tend to want to dig for creatures and I think most of the threats are nonenchantment creatures.

Wow, so awkward. Remember the days when phrases like "noncreature artifact" looked silly on Joven? "Nonenchantment creature". Why not "nonplaneswalker sorcery"? What has this game come to.

[Darkenslight]

Someone over at MTGS pointed out that there are a lot of cheap enchantments that reanimate dead creatures form the early days of Magic. Kruphix's Insight would definitely make a B/G reanimator variant viable, alongside Grisly Salvage and Satyr Wayfinder - each of which is a cheap way of dumping cards in the bin.

[FTW]

Someone over at MTGS pointed out that there are a lot of cheap enchantments that reanimate dead creatures form the early days of Magic. Kruphix's Insight would definitely make a B/G reanimator variant viable, alongside Grisly Salvage and Satyr Wayfinder - each of which is a cheap way of dumping cards in the bin.

Maybe a budget reanimator. Seems worse than UB with Force of Will and Daze and Careful Study.

[Lord Seth]

How I understand it, it is not _just_ about restructuring of rarity vs complexity. It is also about shifting complexity aspects into the red zone (side-effect or not, doesn't matter).
I have no idea what you mean by "the red zone" but I think it means complete removal. However, the part you just quoted in your message supports what I was saying. Observe:
"I've talked about this before that players will do whatever the game incentivizes them to do whether or not that thing is fun. The goal of a game designer is to make the incentives move the players towards the parts of the game that are fun. Tracking lots of information is not what makes Magic fun, yet complexity applied to the wrong places can make that the focus. By stripping away the complexity at common, we were able to move the focus back to things like combat and spell casting."

See? It was talking about how they were bumping up "complex" cards in rarity, as shown by the fact it mentions right there they were talking about removing complexity from commons. That's all New World Order was really ever about: Moving more complicated cards to higher rarities. It can perhaps be blamed for the higher price of decks (as for a card to be playable, it generally has to be "complex" and thus Rare), but it has absolutely nothing to do with putting abilities onto creatures.

[TsumiBand]

Someone over at MTGS pointed out that there are a lot of cheap enchantments that reanimate dead creatures form the early days of Magic. Kruphix's Insight would definitely make a B/G reanimator variant viable, alongside Grisly Salvage and Satyr Wayfinder - each of which is a cheap way of dumping cards in the bin.

I was just starting to think about this too. There are more than a few ways to get a yard full of fatties into the yard, but this card puts all the gas in your hand. So unlike, say, Buried Alive, you aren't just dicking around with half the combo (unless your top six are terrible, but whatever)

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[rufus]

Someone over at MTGS pointed out that there are a lot of cheap enchantments that reanimate dead creatures form the early days of Magic. Kruphix's Insight would definitely make a B/G reanimator variant viable, alongside Grisly Salvage and Satyr Wayfinder - each of which is a cheap way of dumping cards in the bin.

At 2cc the options seem a little limited - Dance of The Dead, Animate Dead, and maybe Hunting Grounds. I think you'd want Commune with the Gods over grisly salvage.

It also seems like there's some potential for Pyromancer Ascension-type stuff.

[Richard Cheese]

At 2cc the options seem a little limited - Dance of The Dead, Animate Dead, and maybe Hunting Grounds. I think you'd want Commune with the Gods over grisly salvage.

It also seems like there's some potential for Pyromancer Ascension-type stuff.

Salvage is instant though, which could make a pretty big difference.

[JDK]

I have no idea what you mean by "the red zone" but I think it means complete removal. However, the part you just quoted in your message supports what I was saying. Observe:
"I've talked about this before that players will do whatever the game incentivizes them to do whether or not that thing is fun. The goal of a game designer is to make the incentives move the players towards the parts of the game that are fun. Tracking lots of information is not what makes Magic fun, yet complexity applied to the wrong places can make that the focus. By stripping away the complexity at common, we were able to move the focus back to things like combat and spell casting."

See? It was talking about how they were bumping up "complex" cards in rarity, as shown by the fact it mentions right there they were talking about removing complexity from commons. That's all New World Order was really ever about: Moving more complicated cards to higher rarities. It can perhaps be blamed for the higher price of decks (as for a card to be playable, it generally has to be "complex" and thus Rare), but it has absolutely nothing to do with putting abilities onto creatures.

I said, as I understand it, it is not just (I even emphasized on this part, and yet you ignored it - to clarify: it means "not only"...so in addition to that. got it now?) about shifting complexity in terms of rarity level. The second part of the sentence you highlighted is the reason for this thinking. combat = red zone (seriously, "complete removal" - wtf?), which is MTG at creature-level. The whole part in the article, where he talks about moving complexity and being able to keep track of the game/getting rid of things difficult to track, that's shifting focus to creatures.

If you don't see it that way, that's fine. But please, don't just focus on parts you like, as you might be missing the point.

[Barook]

Maybe a budget reanimator. Seems worse than UB with Force of Will and Daze and Careful Study.
I doubt that it would be better than U/B Reanimator, too, especially since you're vulnerable to Abrupt Decay when you rely on Auras for reanimation.

That said, dumping a whole lot of cards into the GY opens up the Plan B "Tarmogoyf" when you run green.

[Richard Cheese]

I doubt that it would be better than U/B Reanimator, too, especially since you're vulnerable to Abrupt Decay when you rely on Auras for reanimation.

That said, dumping a whole lot of cards into the GY opens up the Plan B "Tarmogoyf" when you run green.

Grisly Salvage also pumps out Tombstalkers on short notice.

[JPoJohnson]

Speaking of GW Standard decks, I think the hexproof one could run the Ajani (Really one of the only decks I can think of that would) because you have to focus on removing their creatures as they come down in order to win instead of something like a planeswalker a lot of the time. Both +1s are relevant in that mode and the -8 is a nice icing against control matchups. Plus, they'll have less threats once Supreme Verdict is out of the picture this fall.


On topic of legacy though, I'm not seeing anything optimal as of yet. I'm hopeful for something that will aid dredge though? :tongue: It's always nice to have a boogieman in the format. Boggles for Modern, Dredge for Legacy and Vintage? There's just been a lot of hard hate lately.

[Barook]

Grisly Salvage also pumps out Tombstalkers on short notice.
All those spells also dig decently for Life from the Loam. And you could also tutor for that with Entomb.

A G/B Reanimator deck that has the Dark Depths/Hexmage/Stage combo as back-up? That would sound a bit less terrible than straight G/B Reanimator.

[TheArchitect]

On topic of legacy though, I'm not seeing anything optimal as of yet. I'm hopeful for something that will aid dredge though? :tongue: It's always nice to have a boogieman in the format. Boggles for Modern, Dredge for Legacy and Vintage? There's just been a lot of hard hate lately.


Wish Granted, City of Brass #2:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/E9QU2r9nIn_EN.jpg

[JPoJohnson]

I'd say strictly better than City of Brass since you won't take 1 damage if it becomes tapped for a reason beyond adding mana. (Although if it matters, worse in some decks like the modern Ad Nauseam/Phyrexian Unlife deck since you can't pay 1 life but can take 1 damage... Still going with strictly better in 99% of instances)

[HammafistRoob]

Holy shit!!! Does this mean I can finally burn my Tarnished Citadels?

[JPoJohnson]

Holy shit!!! Does this mean I can finally burn my Tarnished Citadels?

I know, I'll be picking up a playset for dredge personally.

[Lord Seth]

Holy shit!!! Does this mean I can finally burn my Tarnished Citadels?
Not if you still want the ability to tap for colorless mana pain-free!

[HammafistRoob]

Not if you still want the ability to tap for colorless mana pain-free!

Good point. Hey, can I borrow your lighter real quick?

[Lemnear]

Good point. Hey, can I borrow your lighter real quick?

+1

[Final Fortune]

Wow, a Legacy playable land?

Seems like an instant inclusion in Dredge, is there any other archetype in legacy that wants 5+ City of Brass like Stax or Stompy or something?

[kiblast]

That land is interesting in a world of Rishadan Ports.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It's funny how compared to City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise or even Tarnished Citadel, this land's visual design is plain ugly.
Dear Wizards, return to the old frame, please.

Other than that, the land seems very good.

[Lemnear]

It's funny how compared to City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Undiscovered Paradise or even Tarnished Citadel, this land's visual design is plain ugly.
Dear Wizards, return to the old frame, please.

Other than that, the land seems very good.

I agree. Considering this card being available in FOIL with all the Gold frame and flashy colors it looks like a wet fantasy from Pony-Land.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I agree. Considering this card being available in FOIL with all the Gold frame and flashy colors it looks like a wet fantasy from Pony-Land.
Yep, esp. compared to Gemstone Mine with its big coloured moxen or Undiscovered Paradise with it's kitschy panorama (hey, I love it!) that were in fact really decent illustrations.

[Darkenslight]

Yep, esp. compared to Gemstone Mine with its big coloured moxen or Undiscovered Paradise with it's kitschy panorama (hey, I love it!) that were in fact really decent illustrations.

Is it wrong that I want to get foil versions, and alter them so that they have horror movie villains coming out of the centre?

[Lemnear]

Is it wrong that I want to get foil versions, and alter them so that they have horror movie villains coming out of the centre?

You mean like Elton John in one of his stage Outfits? Then yeah, you're going right.

[Barook]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/167/635327680285292415.jpeg

What do you think about this? Most likely not Legacy-playable since it lacks a home, but seems cheap enough to fit into some kind of token deck.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

What do you think about this? Most likely not Legacy-playable since it lacks a home, but seems cheap enough to fit into some kind of token deck.

I like the flavor. And the name. Launch the Fleet! I wonder what the word Strive is doing there. Is it just for flavor? Or to be recognizable at a glance?

Also the land would've looked much better in a Future Sight frame.

[Zombie]

I like the flavor. And the name. Launch the Fleet! I wonder what the word Strive is doing there. Is it just for flavor? Or to be recognizable at a glance?

Also the land would've looked much better in a Future Sight frame.

Ability wording the "kick for additional targets" thing. Set has a bunch of it.

[Grand Superior]

Woah, Mana Confluence is the good gold land I've been waiting for since 2011 when I started playing 14-15 land Dredge and hated how awful Tarnished Citadel and Undiscovered Paradise were. Too bad I've since adopted LED Dredge and that version rarely runs more lands than just 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Coliseum. It probably is close to strictly better than City of Brass is though, and I'd swap them in a heartbeat if I didn't like City of Brass's artwork more.

Still, best card spoiled thus far from the set.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It saddens me that only a week after I sold the Dredge, they printed this amazing land.
Also, I like the Launch the Fleet, too.

[TsumiBand]

It's like a weird one-shot Militia's Pride. I did used to like that card in Lorwyn Standard quite a bit.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Barook]

Funny how the set is already better than Theros and Born of the Gods combined. Still not exactly great, but at least it shows they haven't completely lost their touch yet.

Mana Confluence is playable, but boy, this card looks like rainbow vomit. What's the flavor behind it anyway?

[rufus]

Ritual of the Returned could interact well with drawback creatures like Death's Shadow or Phyrexian Dreadnought.

[Barook]

Ritual of the Returned could interact well with drawback creatures like Death's Shadow or Phyrexian Dreadnought.
Interesting find, but 4 mana seems like alot, considering you need additional GY setup for a vanilla beater.

[Cire]

Panoptic Mirror + Worst Fears (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/journey-into-nyx/22353-worst-fears) :tongue:

also:

Hypnotic Siren U
Enchantment Creature - Siren
Bestow 5UU (If you cast this card for its bestow cost, it's an Aura spell with enchant creature. It becomes a creature again if it's not attached to a creature.)
Flying
You control enchanted creature.
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has flying.
1/1

Its a flying 1/1 for U, but late game it can turn the entire game around? probably not worth it, but it's an interesting card

[PirateKing]

Interesting to see them really explore the mechanic with things you'd want to enchant on enemy creatures.

[rufus]

...
What do you think about this? Most likely not Legacy-playable since it lacks a home, but seems cheap enough to fit into some kind of token deck.

Martial Coup and Rise of the Hobgoblins seem better, and nobody plays those.

[Barook]

Martial Coup and Rise of the Hobgoblins seem better, and nobody plays those.
I'm not saying Launch the Fleet is good, but those examples cost 2 more mana before they even start making tokens. That's a huge difference.

The attacking could also be relevant to get the last few points of damage, especially with pump.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah the more I think about it, I like it less (the white token spell thing)

It's a little bit "get there" but if you had a means of having multiple attack steps in one turn, it could maybe kind of blow a sucker out, right - if you control three 1/1s and can attack with impunity anyway, you'll swing for 6. Then somehow magically take another attack step; the original 3 make three more, and you beat for 9 for a grand total of 15 damages that turn. Since most of the questionable 'Attack Step Time Walk' cards are Red (if not all, right?) then you're playing RW Sligh with a really weird win-con in Time Walking the attack step instead of just durdleburning all the things. A strong start with Goblin Guides and Bolts could make a terribad turn Early win happen somehow, and that's funny to me.

I dunno about all that though, haha. I thought of Militia's Pride when I first saw the card and while I played it for the lulz, it was never a Tier 1 effect, even though it had tribal synergy. I mean when it was awesome it was fucking awesome; I think more control decks would whine about seeing Militia's Pride resolve than Bitterblossom because it meant that the little kid aggro deck was going to keep up with BB tokens with 1 guy but start racing with 2, so it made it very easy to under-extend when I knew the opponent would just Wrath because I could just drop a guy a turn and eventually amass a horde. As a one-shot effect, it becomes a tad more aggressive but it doesn't have the same cumulative effect that I found to be so useful in Militia's Pride.

I really do make it a habit to play with bad cards. I know how I am.

Anyway they need to hurry up and spoil the Orzhov god, because IMO these gods are a par above the BotG ones and I like really really just really wanna see that shit because I do. It has nothing to do with my Ghost Council of Orzhova EDH deck. Nope.

[Barook]

Anyway they need to hurry up and spoil the Orzhov god, because IMO these gods are a par above the BotG ones and I like really really just really wanna see that shit because I do. It has nothing to do with my Ghost Council of Orzhova EDH deck. Nope.
:3::w::b:; some condition - opponent(s) lose 1-2 life, you gain that much life.

Anything else would actually suprise me, especially ability-wise.

[TsumiBand]

:3::w::b:; some condition - opponent(s) lose 1-2 life, you gain that much life.

Anything else would actually suprise me, especially ability-wise.

Given the potency of the others though I would hope it's something a little less passive than all that. Really the gods spoiled so far are much better than those in the last set IMHO. Even the Boros guy is 'very Boros' in its execution, and honestly I do not think it is that tough to get to 7 devotion with such a deck considering that the good red and white guys tends to have double colored requirements anyway, so it is fairly aggressive in its own right.

Not necessarily talking about Legacy here, but hopefully that was understood.

EDIT: Also, so far none of the two-color gods have had a cost:effect ability, so that'd be a bit of a break from convention if that were the case. (not counting Phenax, that's a bit of a technicality)

[rufus]

...

...

The tokens don't get haste, so you'd only be swinging for 12. I guess you could pile on with battle cry creatures. (Though I'm not sure how the timing works with that.)

[TsumiBand]

The tokens don't get haste, so you'd only be swinging for 12. I guess you could pile on with battle cry creatures. (Though I'm not sure how the timing works with that.)

Shit, you are right - the first set of tokens doesn't get to attack again. 12 is less impressive than 15. :(

I LIKE THIS CARD A LOT LESS

[FTW]

Ability wording the "kick for additional targets" thing. Set has a bunch of it.

You mean Multikicker? I guess this is just a very specific case of Multikicker where each kicking hits a new target. Wait, didn't Comet Storm already do that? If they reprint Comet Storm, will they give it Strive or Multikicker?

[FTW]

The tokens don't get haste, so you'd only be swinging for 12. I guess you could pile on with battle cry creatures. (Though I'm not sure how the timing works with that.)

You can choose how the timing works. Stack the triggers so your attacking tokens are created first, then resolve Battle Cry.

This card seems bad in general but amazing in an Wx Standard deck with a need to hit Battalion (e.g. aggro decks with Daring Skyjet) or the Ephara deck with Precinct Captain + Brimaz (Draw lotsa cards), or a Boros deck with Assemble the Legion and the RW anthem.

[rufus]

...
This card seems bad in general but amazing in an Wx Standard deck with a need to hit Battalion...

It seems like just fielding another creature would be comparable for hitting battalion, and better most of the rest of the time.

[Aggro_zombies]

Given the potency of the others though I would hope it's something a little less passive than all that. Really the gods spoiled so far are much better than those in the last set IMHO. Even the Boros guy is 'very Boros' in its execution, and honestly I do not think it is that tough to get to 7 devotion with such a deck considering that the good red and white guys tends to have double colored requirements anyway, so it is fairly aggressive in its own right.

Not necessarily talking about Legacy here, but hopefully that was understood.

EDIT: Also, so far none of the two-color gods have had a cost:effect ability, so that'd be a bit of a break from convention if that were the case. (not counting Phenax, that's a bit of a technicality)
Speaking of Phenax, he was the only god last time who wasn't spoiled during the first week, and he's also the worst god outside of Limited. I would totally not be surprised at all if Athreos were just a Subversion on a body.

[Vacrix]

Ajani could potentially see play in a deck like Nicfit. With land acceleration 3GW isn't too bad, and the +1's go well in the deck.

[TsumiBand]

FINALLY

Pheres Band Warchief :3::g:
Creature - Centaur Warrior
Vigilance, trample

Other Centaur creatures you control get +1/+1 and have vigilance and trample.

3/3

Everyone's all "urr minotaur tribal urrrrrr" well go to hell suckers! My Phantom Centaur will block your stupid shit all goddamn day as can't die to damage after it loses that last counter.

A 3/1 that never dies to your dumb creatures; REMIND U OF ANYTHING LOL

[JPoJohnson]

Ajani could potentially see play in a deck like Nicfit. With land acceleration 3GW isn't too bad, and the +1's go well in the deck.

I just don't see dropping him and using any of his +1's as an optimal "This is exactly what I wanted to do this turn with all my mana!" move.

[ahg113]

FINALLY

Pheres Band Warchief :3::g:
Creature - Centaur Warrior
Vigilance, trample

Other Centaur creatures you control get +1/+1 and have vigilance and trample.

3/3

Everyone's all "urr minotaur tribal urrrrrr" well go to hell suckers! My Phantom Centaur will block your stupid shit all goddamn day as can't die to damage after it loses that last counter.

A 3/1 that never dies to your dumb creatures; REMIND U OF ANYTHING LOL

Lacks protection, but good attempt.

::sigh:: I miss Judgement. Phantom.dec - Nantaku, Centaur, Nishoba.... durdle smash

[TsumiBand]

Lacks protection, but good attempt.

::sigh:: I miss Judgement. Phantom.dec - Nantaku, Centaur, Nishoba.... durdle smash

I know right? Most of my favorite creatures seem to be from right around when Odyssey was in Standard. Spiritmonger and Exalted Angel are the curly brackets defining the scope of my guilty creature pleasures.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Darkenslight]

Ability wording the "kick for additional targets" thing. Set has a bunch of it.

Dammit, now I want Fireball back, which was the original version of this.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I played Phantom Centaur, Soltari Priest and Troll Ascetic with Armadillo Cloak plus Worship in the INV - 7th - TSP Extended. It was brilliant, half of the field were different takes on Boros Deck Loses to Armadillo Cloak.
I like the new centaur. There should be some deck to play it in. Tribal wars?

[TsumiBand]

I played Phantom Centaur, Soltari Priest and Troll Ascetic with Armadillo Cloak plus Worship in the INV - 7th - TSP Extended. It was brilliant, half of the field were different takes on Boros Deck Loses to Armadillo Cloak.
I like the new centaur. There should be some deck to play it in. Tribal wars?

You know, I of course decided to Gatherer search a bit for relevant Centaurs, and some of them kind of seem maybe playable.

Boreal Centaur - Not really kidding. It's a 2/2 for 1G with Nantuko Shade's ability. Only 'problem' is it costs "snow" to activate. It isn't as if it would be hard to build a deck with a mana base that facilitates that; Shade was a bamf as a 2/1 for :b::b:, could this terrible card even pretend to fill that role? Shade was good because Mono-Black Control could Mutilate and pump the Shade to live, and obviously that trick isn't gonna work with this card's colors, but failing that it's an easy creature to grow. Besides, who doesn't love a little RTFC? Talk about RTFC: it's once per turn. Ugh. Fuck. Piss.
Burning-Tree Shaman - nice SDT. Also over-the-curve ever so slightly.
Courser of Kruphix - seems okay? Not sure. Gets you moar land kind of.
Fanatic of Xenagos - 4/4 trampler, or 4/4 Haste + trampler (then shrinks, boo) for 3 mana. Dumb aggro beats aw yiss
Jolreal's Centaur - It's no Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but it'll do in a pinch. Heh, no but I like Flanking because it's RTFC and Shroud doesn't suck entirely.
Centaur Omenreader - Proooobably NOT worth it, but casting Centaurs for :g: and :g::g: seems good?
Nylea's Disciple - it's the wrong half of Grey Merchant of Asphodel :( you have to be winning for it to be good I guess
Phantom Centaur - V'GER

[raudo]

Call of the Conclave is the best

[Sylphnir]

PAX spoiler of the B/W god a minute ago:
http://i57.tinypic.com/ixflly.png

3 mana god but not so impressive imo.

[lyracian]

Burning-Tree Shaman - nice SDT. Also over-the-curve ever so slightly.
Courser of Kruphix - seems okay? Not sure. Gets you moar land kind of.
Fanatic of Xenagos - 4/4 trampler, or 4/4 Haste + trampler (then shrinks, boo) for 3 mana. Dumb aggro beats aw yiss
Jolreal's Centaur - It's no Knight of the Holy Nimbus, but it'll do in a pinch. Heh, no but I like Flanking because it's RTFC and Shroud doesn't suck entirely.
Phantom Centaur - V'GER
Courser of Kruphix has made it into Modern Jund and Skyshooter gives you an answer to flyers.



PAX spoiler of the B/W god a minute ago:
That seems impressive for 3 mana! :smile:
Still based on creatures but a nice Enduring Renewal variance.

Polymorphous Rush 2U
Instant
Strive 1U
Choose a creature on the battlefield. Any number of target creatures you control become a copy of that creature until end of turn.

How many TNN's do you want to attack with? :tongue:

[JPoJohnson]

PAX spoiler of the B/W god a minute ago:
http://i57.tinypic.com/ixflly.png

3 mana god but not so impressive imo.

Modern BW Tokens is going to love this!

[lyracian]

Modern BW Tokens is going to love this!
Tokens cease to exist so there is nothing to return and that deck does not have many non-token creatures...

They have also printed King Midas who exiles creatures when he untaps. Not quite the Abyss with legs but might be fun.

[bruizar]

I don't know, I sort of like Setessan Tactics. Not sure for which formats I like it, but the ability to pick of multiple utility creatures is sort of nice even though it is contingent upon having creatures. It sort of doubles as a really bad pump spell too. Pretty sure you'd rather have a grim lavamancer but this card somehow appeals to me.


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/124/635326174950408783.jpeg
Setessan Tactics
1 G
Instant
Strive — Setessan Tactics costs G more to cast for each target beyond the first.

Until end of turn, any number of target creatures each get +1/+1 and gain "T: This creature fights another target creature."

[Barook]

At the very least, its nice anti-wrath tech.

Except for Legacy. Whoever came up with Terminus deserves to be punched in the face. Fuck that guy.

[Darkenslight]

Modern BW Tokens is going to love this!

I'm think more a D&T variant that's resistant to Emrakul. Or a Reanimator variant using Necromancy and/or sacrifice effects.

[JPoJohnson]

Tokens cease to exist so there is nothing to return and that deck does not have many non-token creatures...

They have also printed King Midas who exiles creatures when he untaps. Not quite the Abyss with legs but might be fun.

Edit: Yeah, I'm an idiot haha

[bruizar]

Perhaps if you can consistently turn on Devotion by turn 4, you could take advantage of the fact that it's a 3 drop instead of the other expensive gods.

Turn 1: Devotion 1
Turn 2: Devotion 3
Turn 3: Drop BW God Devotion 5
Turn 4: Devotion 7, attack (and catch STP'd :-) )

The good thing about this card is that it gets back its devotion enablers as part of its ability. Squadron Hawk + this is endless stream of irritating blockers and devotion enablers (or 12 damage).

My verdict: I like the card.

Chrome Mox Squadron Hawk Brainstorm

[FTW]

It seems like just fielding another creature would be comparable for hitting battalion, and better most of the rest of the time.

That other creature can't attack this turn unless it has haste. Opponents playing against Battalion will typically try to keep you off 3 viable attackers on board. This is a nice trick because it screws up the math of number of creatures you threaten to attack with this turn and can give you Battalion when an opponent thinks you wouldn't be able to get it. Tempo matters when playing with 3/1s.

[TsumiBand]

PAX spoiler of the B/W god a minute ago:
http://i57.tinypic.com/ixflly.png

3 mana god but not so impressive imo.

Holy fuck, that goes right in my Ghost Council of Orzhova EDH pile. Fits like a glove at a crime scene. Has Zac Hill been reading my diary?? <3 <3 <3

[FTW]

How many TNN's do you want to attack with? :tongue:

Mirrorweave.
ALL of them.

[Barook]

Athreos also seems to combine nicely with Pod and Evoke creatures.

You'd still need a way to figure out how to pressure your opponent's life total enough to prevent them from paying life like giving out candy.

[TsumiBand]

Athreos also seems to combine nicely with Pod and Evoke creatures.

You'd still need a way to figure out how to pressure your opponent's life total enough to prevent them from paying life like giving out candy.

Well... it *is* a 5-power guy for :1::b::w:... considering the color combination that's really aggro of them.

I bet it would be fairly academic to keep pressure on them enough that the life loss is painful. How quickly can you poop out tokens? Pack Rat will increase devotion (token copies have mana costs too, i still think that's weird but I like it); every undercosted White thing that just beats will get there too. Tombstalker maybe? Some other quintessential fast beats guy in Black that I'm forgetting?

[Cire]

Athreos also seems to combine nicely with Pod and Evoke creatures.

You'd still need a way to figure out how to pressure your opponent's life total enough to prevent them from paying life like giving out candy.

Well if it allows you to bolt your opponent whenever you evoke a creature I think that's still pretty good.

Random Rough list

4 Shriekmaw
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Athreos

4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

19 Lands

[Barook]

Well... it *is* a 5-power guy for :1::b::w:... considering the color combination that's really aggro of them.

I bet it would be fairly academic to keep pressure on them enough that the life loss is painful. How quickly can you poop out tokens? Pack Rat will increase devotion (token copies have mana costs too, i still think that's weird but I like it); every undercosted White thing that just beats will get there too. Tombstalker maybe? Some other quintessential fast beats guy in Black that I'm forgetting?
7 devotion works for Standard, but as far as Legacy concerned, getting to 7 devotion is overextending which asks for trouble.

I'm not a fan of tokens since they have zero synergy with it. A bunch of cheap, fast beaters might work, especially in an Esper build with that W/U god draws you a card after having played a creature the turn before. Something like Nightveil Specter powers up the devotion on both. But that's all Standard talk.

In Legacy, your stuff is going to get StP/Terminus'ed. Since you have to pay mana and your opponent can prevent the return, I also can't see an engine going on.

[TsumiBand]

7 devotion works for Standard, but as far as Legacy concerned, getting to 7 devotion is overextending which asks for trouble.

I'm not a fan of tokens since they have zero synergy with it. A bunch of cheap, fast beaters might work, especially in an Esper build with that W/U god draws you a card after having played a creature the turn before. Something like Nightveil Specter powers up the devotion on both. But that's all Standard talk.

In Legacy, your stuff is going to get StP/Terminus'ed. Since you have to pay mana and your opponent can prevent the return, I also can't see an engine going on.

Oh right, it's 7 for hybrid gods, not 5. I keep forget. That's not great for its future employment.

[Barook]

Oh right, it's 7 for hybrid gods, not 5. I keep forget. That's not great for its future employment.
It might be decent against Punishing Fire decks, though, since they can't touch the God and you keep returning your creatures.

Not the greatest thing ever, but might be worth testing - somewhere...

Edit: Ravager + a bunch of cheap creatures + this in Affinity?

[FTW]

It might be decent against Punishing Fire decks, though, since they can't touch the God and you keep returning your creatures.

Not the greatest thing ever, but might be worth testing - somewhere...

Edit: Ravager + a bunch of cheap creatures + this in Affinity?

I could see Deadguy Ale or Black and Taxes running some copies of this SB to help deal with Punishing Fire and TNN hate in G2/3. Theoretically possible to get devotion (if you know you're not playing against Miracles you can overextend), helps your dorks not suck against weenie hate.

[lyracian]

Mirrorweave.
ALL of them.

Mirrorweave has to target the creature and Mass Polymorph does not. Of course if you copy the opponents TNN you will just end up with a bunch of creatures with proteciton from your self...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mirrorweave has to target the creature and Mass Polymorph does not. Of course if you copy the opponents TNN you will just end up with a bunch of creatures with proteciton from your self...

This doesn't seem like it works. TNN doesn't have "protection from opponents" it has, "protection from the chosen player." And your other creatures didn't make you choose a player when they entered play.

[Darkenslight]

This doesn't seem like it works. TNN doesn't have "protection from opponents" it has, "protection from the chosen player." And your other creatures didn't make you choose a player when they entered play.

Protection is a copiable ability.

[uncletiggy]

Deathrite liliana and sculler seems like a resonable board presence to get to seven devotion by turn four and start the beats.

[FTW]

This doesn't seem like it works. TNN doesn't have "protection from opponents" it has, "protection from the chosen player." And your other creatures didn't make you choose a player when they entered play.

Mirrorweave doesn't speak English. It sees the following:

Name: True-Name Nemesis
Mana Cost/Color Identity: 1UU

Permanent type: Creature
Subtype: Merfolk Rogue

Protection from [insert your own name here]
3/1

[FTW]

Deathrite liliana and sculler seems like a resonable board presence to get to seven devotion by turn four and start the beats.

Daze and Lightning Bolt seem like a reasonable way to make Atheros look pretty weak after that opening.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Protection is a copiable ability.

That's not the problem, the problem is that "chosen player" references a choice that non-TNN creatures will not have made as they entered play.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Like, how do you think this works if you copy Meddling Mage?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Mirrorweave doesn't speak English. It sees the following:

Name: True-Name Nemesis
Mana Cost/Color Identity: 1UU

Permanent type: Creature
Subtype: Merfolk Rogue

Protection from [insert your own name here]
3/1

That's literally not the text on TNN though. The text on TNN is, "Protection from the chosen player."

[uncletiggy]

Daze counters anything if you walk into it and lightning bolt is going kill your best creature in legacy a high percentage of the time. A deck with deathrite bob stoneforge sculler and liliana puts a lot of stress on bolt.

[FTW]

Daze counters anything if you walk into it and lightning bolt is going kill your best creature in legacy a high percentage of the time. A deck with deathrite bob stoneforge sculler and liliana puts a lot of stress on bolt.

The point was that disruptive decks should make it tricky actually stick 7 devotion. The opponent has cards too, and assuming they are interactive, they will often be trading with your cards. Magical Xmas land of T1 DRS, T2 Lili, T3 Tidehollow, T4 Atheros will likely run into some disruption, and that's just to set up an attacker on turn 5...

[rufus]

It seems like a player could win by piling some combination of Purphoros, God of the Forge,Cyclops of Eternal Fury, Forgeborn Oreads, and maybe one or two other enchantment bodies into the graveyard and firing off a Replenish.

[bruizar]

Athreos, God of Passage also works well with Mogg War Marshall even without devotion. Same for Stingscourger, Tinstreet Hooligan and Skirk Prospector. Possible sideboard card could be Ingot Chewer.

That, or Zombardment with Mogg Warmashall and Keldon Marauders and less lingering souls type cards.