[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Whitefaces]

I'm still confused by Jace, VP being played in decks with mostly reactive cards (daze, pierce etc). Don't you at least want something high impact to flashback like Hymn?

[btm10]

I'm still confused by Jace, VP being played in decks with mostly reactive cards (daze, pierce etc). Don't you at least want something high impact to flashback like Hymn?

I think that this thinking is sort of a trap. Most opponents will be hellbent by the midgame, especially given Thoughtseize and your Bobs, so rebuying Hymn is usually pretty meh. If your opponent has targets, getting back a Decay is always going to be valuable, and Jace provides insurance against people trying to overload Decay by boarding in a bunch of irritating permanents. Rebuying Brainstorm and Ponder in the midgame is still CA+selection, and you still have a Planeswalker that threatens to take over the game afterward. Asthereal or H pointed out a few pages back that BUG Delver is about constantly reassessing your role in a game, and both sides of JVP facilitate that plan.

[Asthereal]

I think that this thinking is sort of a trap. Most opponents will be hellbent by the midgame, especially given Thoughtseize and your Bobs, so rebuying Hymn is usually pretty meh. If your opponent has targets, getting back a Decay is always going to be valuable, and Jace provides insurance against people trying to overload Decay by boarding in a bunch of irritating permanents. Rebuying Brainstorm and Ponder in the midgame is still CA+selection, and you still have a Planeswalker that threatens to take over the game afterward. Asthereal or H pointed out a few pages back that BUG Delver is about constantly reassessing your role in a game, and both sides of JVP facilitate that plan.
It's not the worst idea to run Jace VP. He can be a solid Sylvan Library replacement. He's blue, which helps for FoW, and if he flips we have a fine Planeswalker that only cost us 2 mana to cast. Even when we are the aggressive player and we don't really want to run cards that don't have an immidiate impact when we cast them, we are often still happy to run a one-of Sylvan, so Jace could also be an interesting option there.

24 instants/sorceries is indeed pushing it, but my old list with 2x Stalker, 1x Sylvan, 1x Liliana also ran 24. It bites you at times, and I'd definitely not advise to go any lower than that, but I put down a few nice results so it's probably okayish.

Only thing I was surprised by was the choice of 3x Goyf / 4x Confidant. I'd probably switch those numbers, but I'm guessing this was a meta call?

[kubalonek]

I took this deck for the first time to see how it works for very small tournament (4 Rounds)

R1 - JUND (2:0) - won the die roll
G1 - I beat hit with goyf dealing with DRS with decay.
G2 - I countered everything he played refilling my hand with BOB.

R2 - RUG DELVER (1:2) - lost the die roll
G1 - he runs me over with delver and goyf.
G2 - I run him over with delver and 2 goyfs.
G3 - he had just everything wastelands, submerges and delver and goyf.

R3 - MIRACLES (2:1) - lost the die roll
G1 - I beat him to 4 drawing the ton of lands then he stabilizes and ran me over with mentor
G2 - I beat him with early goyf stifling miracles triggers and drawing cards from BOB
G3 - he was stucked on 4 lands i have shaman, BOB and lot of counters

R4 - ELVES (2:0) - lost the die roll
G1 - he played some creatures that I kept at the bay with goyfs slowly increasing board pressure (no combo at all).
G2 - he was mana screwed. I countered his glimpse, killed arbor with wasteland and flipped toxic deluge with 2 BOB in play clearing his 8 elves immediately.


This deck is sweet! :D

[Manroe]

What do you guys feel about natural state in the SB -- especially in the Bob versions?

[H]

What do you guys feel about natural state in the SB -- especially in the Bob versions?

I'm not sure what it would be for, Counterbalance? Neither Natural State nor Nature's Claim is really any good for that.

[Xerlic]

Natural State seems pretty redundant when we run Abrupt Decay.

[H]

Natural State seems pretty redundant when we run Abrupt Decay.

Well, supplemental Artifact or Enchantment hate can be good, depending on the meta, but yeah, the fact that Decay hits everything that State does and State hits nothing that Decay does not really means that you'd want something better as a sideboard card. Even Nature's Claim is better because it can hit anything (and I'd never run Nature's Claim).

[Ryu]

Could someone critique this for me before I buy it? I feel the mana base could use some changing and maybe cutting a spell pierce for a 4th decay might be better but I have no experience with this format. Also, if someone could, list out some "god hands" or ideal opening hands for On the Play and On the Draw?

1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[Will_L]

I think you would be better served going all in the Stifle/Spell Pierce build with 3 trop/3 sea OR going all in on the black build with 4sea/2bayou/1trop and 4 hymns and lilis

The hold up blue for countermagic/stifle and sorcery speed disruption don't play well together...

I would also try and fit the 4th decay main. I play 5 removal spells main and that has always felt good to me

[Ryu]

I think you would be better served going all in the Stifle/Spell Pierce build with 3 trop/3 sea OR going all in on the black build with 4sea/2bayou/1trop and 4 hymns and lilis

The hold up blue for countermagic/stifle and sorcery speed disruption don't play well together...

I would also try and fit the 4th decay main. I play 5 removal spells main and that has always felt good to me

How would my deck look with the changes you said going towards the stifle route?

[Will_L]

This is what I'm playing, a more blue based BUG delver deck

4 delver
4 drs
4 goyf
1 tnn
1 gurmag angler

4 daze
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 spell pierce
4 abrupt decay
1 dismember

8 fetch
3 trop
3 sea
4 wasteland

[Xerlic]

Well, supplemental Artifact or Enchantment hate can be good, depending on the meta, but yeah, the fact that Decay hits everything that State does and State hits nothing that Decay does not really means that you'd want something better as a sideboard card. Even Nature's Claim is better because it can hit anything (and I'd never run Nature's Claim).

Right. I meant if you need more enchantment hate in the sideboard, I'd look towards something like Golgari Charm that is simply more flexible than State which, for all intents and purposes, a worse Abrupt Decay. :)


How would my deck look with the changes you said going towards the stifle route?

I've played both the Hymn version and Stifle version, and will be probably be sleeving up the Stifle version if I go to SCG Philly since I'm more comfortable with it than the proactive discard version. The core of the Stifle version is usually:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf

12 Creatures

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Decay

24 Instants/Sorceries

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
8 Fetches

18 Lands

My list is +2 Dark Confidant, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Disfigure and +1 Dismember. I'm recommend reading Jim Davis's article about it on SCG. He's been playing the deck for over a year. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30236_Goodbye-Monkey.html

[Ryu]

Thanks for the great info! The article was a good read but I feel like it didn't help me much. Could you guys critique my Sideboard for an unknown meta and maybe list some really solid hands to keep on the play and on the draw? I always feel that these primers are missing that kind of information.

[H]

Thanks for the great info! The article was a good read but I feel like it didn't help me much. Could you guys critique my Sideboard for an unknown meta and maybe list some really solid hands to keep on the play and on the draw? I always feel that these primers are missing that kind of information.

Well, the "ideal sideboard" is really going to depend on what your maindeck looks like. If you run Stifle, Spell Pierce is a lot better than Thoughtsieze, so it should be in the main.


1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I would want to keep 4 Decay main. Pierce main too. If I were to make a sideboard, it would be:

2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Winter Orb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte

No Deluge, since I'd run a t least 2 Confidant and 2 True-Name. Library is almost a must-have in my mind. Two Disfigure is probably not needed, depending on your maindeck, so you can consider them a flex slot. Jitte is not really ideal here but with True-Name it can certainly break some fair matchups.

Your best hands will be a combination of threats and disruption. I'm not really smart enough to come up with great lines, but some games Stifle will be MVP, where in others, it might be Spell Pierce or Wasteland. In same games (mostly on the play) Daze will be great, in others, likely nearly useless (Force fodder). In any case, everything in your deck is better with a threat on board, regardless of being on the play or draw. All disruption hands are going to be generally better than all threat hands, but that definitely depends on the match-up, how many cantrips you have access too, etc.

On the play, value Delver higher, with Stifle and Daze. On the draw, value Deathrite, Spell Pierce and Abrupt Decay higher, along with Wasteland over Stifle. Of course, these are generalities and just my opinion.

[sadface]

Thanks for the great info! The article was a good read but I feel like it didn't help me much. Could you guys critique my Sideboard for an unknown meta and maybe list some really solid hands to keep on the play and on the draw? I always feel that these primers are missing that kind of information.

I would recommend watching Bon Huang pilot the deck on MTGO. Should give you a better feel for what hands are keepable on the play/draw, and what lines of play are good versus different opponents.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL04lbfeNAaS8t9jSgZKHv2htS6kQ8tKWu

[Asthereal]

Could someone critique this for me before I buy it? I feel the mana base could use some changing and maybe cutting a spell pierce for a 4th decay might be better but I have no experience with this format. Also, if someone could, list out some "god hands" or ideal opening hands for On the Play and On the Draw?

1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

If you decide to go for the Hymn version, here's some advice (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)&p=921653&viewfull=1#post921653) on building a list for that. :wink:

[Bobmans]

If i where to bring TA (Hymn version) to a large event (200+ players), what would be a suggested 75?
Also, how problematic is Eldrazi Stompy? Think they can overload quite easy and most creatures they drop are out of reach for our removal. Best plan here seems to be mana denial coupled with a fast clock.

[H]

If i where to bring TA (Hymn version) to a large event (200+ players), what would be a suggested 75?
Also, how problematic is Eldrazi Stompy? Think they can overload quite easy and most creatures they drop are out of reach for our removal. Best plan here seems to be mana denial coupled with a fast clock.

Probably something like one of Bob's recent lists (I changed a little bit):

4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Flex Creature

4 x Hymn to Tourach
1 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
1 x Sylvan Library
1 x Flex Spell

2 x Bayou
4 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Wasteland

Sideboard
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Disfigure
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Dread of Night
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Dismember
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Null Rod
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Flex Sideboard Slot (Meta game choice)

The only thing I am really not too sure of is having three Spell Pierce in the side, but I think you need to weigh your expected meta and chose what you want to beat, then adjust accordingly. I don't know that I am comfortable having zero Surgical Extractions, but again, that is up to you.

[Bobmans]

Probably something like one of Bob's recent lists (I changed a little bit):

4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Flex Creature

4 x Hymn to Tourach
1 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
1 x Sylvan Library
1 x Flex Spell

2 x Bayou
4 x Underground Sea
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Wasteland

Sideboard
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Disfigure
1 x Liliana of the Veil
1 x Dread of Night
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Dismember
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Null Rod
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Flex Sideboard Slot (Meta game choice)

The only thing I am really not too sure of is having three Spell Pierce in the side, but I think you need to weigh your expected meta and chose what you want to beat, then adjust accordingly. I don't know that I am comfortable having zero Surgical Extractions, but again, that is up to you.

Thank you for your reply.
Looks pretty close to what i have been running;
3 hymn
2 thoughtseize
2 Liliana
1 Sylvan library
1 Tombstalker/Tasigur

But i am looking at the following cards aswell;
1 Jace VP
2/3 Dark Confidant
2 Painful Truths

I really like having 2 Liliana in the MD and mostly i am playing very aggressive (which is the appeal over the Stifle version for me).

As sideboard i am running;
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 V. Clique
1 grafdigger
1 null rod
1 P. Needle
1 Life from the loam
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Darkblast
1 Krosan Grip

So far i have run a ton of games with my local group, but i am preparing for a large tournament which follows in 3 months from now and am considering bringer either this, Junk or UB OmniShow.

[H]

Well, one thing I don't particularly like about having Tasigur or Tombstalker is that if they bring in something like RiP to deal with Goyf/Deathrite, it deals with them too. We are already very Graveyard dependent. Doubling down on it, with Jace probably doesn't really help either. I tested Jace a bit and while he is ok, to maybe good, he is not aggressive at all, so I found that he probably wasn't ideal. I like that Confidant doesn't need the graveyard to be good.

I have yet to be able to get a chance to test Truths, 2 is probably pretty good though. 2 Liliana is also a configuration I have run before and liked it, also gives you another sideboard slot to play with.

Your sideboard looks good to me, in a general sense. I like the idea of Garruk, but I have never run him myself.

[Bobmans]

Tasigur; i had it as an aggresive beater that could help in the lategame. In reality i rarely got to the point where i was actually able to use it in the lategame, so i decided to swap it to Stalker. But your point about being to dependent on the grave is very real. I really like to have a one-off beefy creature. That said Dark Confidant makes most sense in replacing Stalker (and library). TNN is a solid option but i dont like the idea of running UU in a 19 land deck with BB heavy cards.
Thruths is seems like a fine replacement for 2 Confidant, they have effect right away and you control the lifeloss. Only thing is that it doesnt add pressure by itself.
As for sideboard i really like cards to be either recurring, hit multiples or are a 'permanent' effect.
Garruk Relentless is really nice to have in the control match-up. Especially against Miracles.

[Ryu]

If i where to bring TA (Hymn version) to a large event (200+ players), what would be a suggested 75?
Also, how problematic is Eldrazi Stompy? Think they can overload quite easy and most creatures they drop are out of reach for our removal. Best plan here seems to be mana denial coupled with a fast clock.

There was a really good guide posted back on page 111 if you wanna take a look at that. As for the Eldrazi statement, I don't have a huge amount of experience with it in Legacy but it puts out 5/5s on turn 2.

Edit: Would 2x Bob work well in that Hymn based decks instead of the single creature and spell?

[Bobmans]

There was a really good guide posted back on page 111 if you wanna take a look at that. As for the Eldrazi statement, I don't have a huge amount of experience with it in Legacy but it puts out 5/5s on turn 2.

Edit: Would 2x Bob work well in that Hymn based decks instead of the single creature and spell?

I found it, thanks. Also i found the next comment, how true is that?


I am currently on the black heavy version (i.e., two Bayous, two Liliana of the Veil, four Hymn to Tourach) and my creature base is:
4X Deathrite Shaman
4X Delver of Secrets
4X Tarmogoyf
2X Dark Confidant

I have a singleton Vendilion Clique in the board.

The reason I am going with Dark Confidant is there is currently a lot of Miracles and Storm in my metagame. If that changes I would look into other options.

[Asthereal]

I found it, thanks. Also i found the next comment, how true is that?
The Miracles players I know seem to fear Confidant most of all the cards we play.
If Miracles is a very big thing, it might be worth it to play three copies in your 75.
Against Storm I'm not the biggest fan, but Confidant does draw into more disruption.
Then again, Storm is one of our best matchups. We should be fine against Storm anyway.

[Bobmans]

The Miracles players I know seem to fear Confidant most of all the cards we play.
If Miracles is a very big thing, it might be worth it to play three copies in your 75.
Against Storm I'm not the biggest fan, but Confidant does draw into more disruption.
Then again, Storm is one of our best matchups. We should be fine against Storm anyway.

Well, according to the "5-best-decks-in-Legacy" article....Miracles is THE deck to beat. So there we have it, Dark Confidant it is.

Edit; Or is that too short thru the corner? ;-)

[Xerlic]

I play the Stifle version over the discard version because I'm in a Miracles heavy meta. Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library and Painful Truths are all fantastic against them.

[Ryu]

How relevant are gameplay videos from 2013 and onwards? I am watching a bunch of SCG coverage of the deck and wanted to know how relevant the information is when compared to todays meta. If anyone has more up to date coverage then please pass it on!

[lordofthepit]

I'm trying to come up with simple heuristics for how best to stack Dark Confidant and Delver of Secrets triggers with unknown cards on top of library so that I don't have to waste time and mental energy during an actual tournament. This may be a bit pedantic, but we only have to go through the process once. Please feel free to correct me if you see any mistakes or add to this list as this is nowhere near complete.

One Confidant, one Delver, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board

Resolve Delver trigger first if concealing information is more important.
Resolve Confidant trigger first if increasing the probability of flipping Delver is more important. The top two cards of your library can be AA, AB, or BA, with P(AB) = P(BA), but stacking your triggers in this way gives you a chance of flipping Delver even if the top of your deck is [Brainstorm, non-instant/sorcery].


One Confidant, one Delver, potential instants or activated abilities in consideration

Resolve Delver trigger first if your primary consideration is dying to an unlucky Dark Confidant trigger. This will allow you to shuffle away a high casting cost card with a fetchland, Stifle the Dark Confidant trigger, or otherwise manipulate the top of your deck before resolving the Dark Confidant trigger, as well as informing you whether it's necessary to activate Deathrite Shaman for lifegain during the awkward upkeep step.
Otherwise, the logic from the previous section applies, except that if you choose to resolve the Confidant trigger first, you can still shuffle away any card you reveal to the Delver trigger before drawing


Two Delvers, one or more Confidants, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board - It may be possible to flip zero, one, or two Delvers, but in some board states, you can only win by flipping two and in some cases you are fine if you flip at least one.

If the game state is such that your primary consideration is to flip both Delvers, it is best to stack both Delver triggers in "higher variance" manner so that they "together" (adjacently on the stack). You can further optimize this probability by resolving all Confidant triggers before the Delver triggers resolve so that any Brainstorms gained from Dark Confidant increase your probability accordingly.
If the game state is such that your primary consideration is to flip at least one Delver, it is best to stack the Delver triggers in "lower variance" manner, separately with intervening Dark Confidant triggers in between. With two Dark Confidants and two Delvers, the optimal sequence is resolving the first Confidant trigger, followed by a Delver, then the second Confidant, and then the second Delver, as this allows for two separate cards to potentially trigger at least one Delver as well as a gained Brainstorm from the first Bob trigger to aid with deck manipulation.
Note that the above statements can be generalized to situations involving more than two Delvers.

[Ryu]

@lordofthepit Just ... wow. Nice write up. Very informative for me as a new player. My only suggestion would be to add a small writeup about how to properly/efficiently shuffle away cards after the triggers for delver/bob.

[Bobmans]

One Confidant, one Delver, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board

Resolve Confidant trigger first if increasing the probability of flipping Delver is more important. The top two cards of your library can be AA, AB, or BA, with P(AB) = P(BA), but stacking your triggers in this way gives you a chance of flipping Delver even if the top of your deck is [Brainstorm, non-instant/sorcery].



Ok, i may be misunderstanding but what you are saying is;

Stack Top
Confidant trigger
Delver trigger
Bottom

Library Top
Brainstorm
Tarmogoyf
...
Bottom

That this situation does flip the Delver? Or that you can still influence if the Delver flips? Obviously in this case your blind with the library and the triggers are already announced and placed on the stack.

[Ryu]

Ok, i may be misunderstanding but what you are saying is;

Stack Top
Confidant trigger
Delver trigger
Bottom

Library Top
Brainstorm
Tarmogoyf
...
Bottom

That this situation does flip the Delver? Or that you can still influence if the Delver flips? Obviously in this case your blind with the library and the triggers are already announced and placed on the stack.

I could be wrong but in this event wouldn't you draw brainstorm off Bob then cast it with delver trigger still on the stack? My knowledge is limited so I assume that this isn't how things work.

[Bobmans]

I could be wrong but in this event wouldn't you draw brainstorm off Bob then cast it with delver trigger still on the stack? My knowledge is limited so I assume that this isn't how things work.
Yes you could, but let's say the brainstorm is a random instant/sorcery.
Because i overlooked that detail of a brainstorm being in your hand before the delver trigger resolves.
Edit: now to think of it, the whole point was about Brainstorm being the top card. I was not seeing that and replaced Brainstorm with "random" instant/sorcery. So if a Ponder be on top with a Goyf as 2nd the Delver aint flippin.

[Ryu]

Yes you could, but let's say the brainstorm is a random instant/sorcery.
Because i overlooked that detail of a brainstorm being in your hand before the delver trigger resolves.

Okay then in this situation delver wouldn't flip because Bob trigger resolves and you draw the instant/sorcery then delver triggers and reveals the goyf. This is coming from a logical standpoint.

[lordofthepit]

For simplicity, let's assume your library only consists of Brainstorms and Tarmogoyfs.

If you stack the triggers so that Delver resolves first, then you can only flip if the top card is a Brainstorm (call this event A)

If you stack the triggers so that Confidant resolves first, you will flip Delver if the second card is a Brainstorm (call this event B.) Events A and B happen with equal probability if you haven't manipulated the deck, but in addition, by resolving the Dark Confidant trigger first, if the first card is a Brainstorm, you will have an additional chance to manipulate the deck before your Delver trigger resolves.

[Ryu]

now to think of it, the whole point was about Brainstorm being the top card. I was not seeing that and replaced Brainstorm with "random" instant/sorcery. So if a Ponder be on top with a Goyf as 2nd the Delver aint flippin.

Can't you use ponder to dig past the goyf and still potentially flip delver?

[Bobmans]

Can't you use ponder to dig past the goyf and still potentially flip delver?
You can also slap your opponent in the face and flip Delver for no appearent reason.




For simplicity, let's assume your library only consists of Brainstorms and Tarmogoyfs.

If you stack the triggers so that Delver resolves first, then you can only flip if the top card is a Brainstorm (call this event A)

If you stack the triggers so that Confidant resolves first, you will flip Delver if the second card is a Brainstorm (call this event B.) Events A and B happen with equal probability if you haven't manipulated the deck, but in addition, by resolving the Dark Confidant trigger first, if the first card is a Brainstorm, you will have an additional chance to manipulate the deck before your Delver trigger resolves.

Yes, this. I had mistaken my error in reading for a fancy trick i might have never thought about.
Thnx for clearing that out.

[Xerlic]

Can't you use ponder to dig past the goyf and still potentially flip delver?
Nope. Ponder is a Sorcery.

Has anyone here played against the new Legacy Eldrazi deck? I played against my friend's Modern Eldrazi deck, and uh... it wasn't pretty. I imagine the Legacy version would be much worse. Anecdotal evidence, of course.

[Manipulato]

Nope. Ponder is a Sorcery.

Has anyone here played against the new Legacy Eldrazi deck? I played against my friend's Modern Eldrazi deck, and uh... it wasn't pretty. I imagine the Legacy version would be much worse. Anecdotal evidence, of course.

Yeah this new Eldrazi Aggro deck will shake up Legacy hard! It's heavily discussed here in the new & developemental thread...
When this deck arrived at Legacy the next 2 month or so the people have to change the way they're building decks. It just eats Miracles, ANT & Delver variants for breakfast...

But from all Delver variants out there I think BUG Delver aka Team America has the best tools to fight them, AD, Goyf & Liliana are more powerful against them like Lightning Bolt, YP & Stifles etc...

[wwoning]

One Confidant, one Delver, no relevant instants or activated abilities in hand or on board

Resolve Delver trigger first if concealing information is more important.
Resolve Confidant trigger first if increasing the probability of flipping Delver is more important. The top two cards of your library can be AA, AB, or BA, with P(AB) = P(BA), but stacking your triggers in this way gives you a chance of flipping Delver even if the top of your deck is [Brainstorm, non-instant/sorcery].



While I agree with your assessment, this still leaves the question which action is best in a certain match-up or situation. Since the chance of hitting brainstorm with our confidant trigger is pretty small, I will mostly choose to conceal the information and have the Delver trigger resolve first.

[Ryu]

You can also slap your opponent in the face and flip Delver for no appearent reason.


Oops, forgot that Ponder is a sorcery.

[Bobmans]

Oops, forgot that Ponder is a sorcery.
Would be pretty good, Ponder at instant speed. Thought you were making some kind of joke. Happens; better now then during a sanctioned event.

@Eldrazi, hymn+wasteland seems nasty against them. Liliana + plus decay for some disruption. Trinisphere is usually also not much of a problem, at least when i was on MUD playing against TA it wasn't. And goyf may be 5/6 from their artifact/creatures to stop smasher and tks. Also flip delver can keep pressure on them. The MU looks horrible but might be ok.

[btm10]

@Eldrazi, hymn+wasteland seems nasty against them. Liliana + plus decay for some disruption. Trinisphere is usually also not much of a problem, at least when i was on MUD playing against TA it wasn't. And goyf may be 5/6 from their artifact/creatures to stop smasher and tks. Also flip delver can keep pressure on them. The MU looks horrible but might be ok.

I've only done limited testing so far, but Eldrazi stompy seems to be weak to any sort of BGx deck strategy - good news if you're playing Hymn (especially alongside Liliana), bad news if you're playing Stifle.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, but now Shardless is better overall, since they do the hymn thing the best.

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[btm10]

Sure, but now Shardless is better overall, since they do the hymn thing the best.

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I think it's less clear that Shardless is the better BUG deck right now; it depends on the relative levels of combo and Miracles (and to a lesser extent, nonblue midrange) you expect. That being said, I play basically all of the BGx decks and BUG Delver is definitely the best Hymn deck. The others want to drag the game out longer, and Hymning to put them in topdeck mode while you're likely holding removal and midrange goodstuff is worse from both a tempo and resource allocation standpoint than is just Thoughtseizing the one card you can't deal with at the moment to force them to play into your hand of removal/planeswalkers/creatures/card draw without their best threa/answer/cantrip. In contrast, Hymning them with a threat out forces them to play into your soft permission (this is why I MD 1-2 Pierces in my Hymn list) no matter what gets hit. If they had removal, they were likley holding it to play around Daze, making hitting lands functionally similar to hitting removal. But since they're strongly incentivized to fire off their removal by the simple fact that you're playing discard, they probably don't have it, which increases the value of hitting cantrips, lands, etc. further.

In the case of Eldrazi Stompy, I think both Delver and Shardless are favored, but which has the larger edge has more to do with matchup specific questions (how many scions can they make? do they have MD graveyard hate? what's their curve like?) that it's basically impossible to say that one is decisively better in the matchup than the other.

[Asthereal]

Sure, but now Shardless is better overall, since they do the hymn thing the best.
Why would anyone want to compare Shardless and Team America?
Do we play the same colours? Sure.
Do we play a few cards they also do? Sure.
But that's where all comparison ends.
Just look at the matchups. How are they positioned? How are we?

It's like comparing whether Miracles is better positioned than us.
Different deck, different playing style, different strategy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think you read a bit too far into my statement. That actually was where the comparison ended. All I said was it was better positioned as a BGx list that played Hymn.

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[Asthereal]

I think you read a bit too far into my statement. That actually was where the comparison ended. All I said was it was better positioned as a BGx list that played Hymn.

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Maybe, on an average that was stretched out as far as the horizon. But if you encounter Storm in the first two rounds, how do you feel?

The thing is, there is no reason to discuss here how this deck is positioned compared to another deck. Whichever deck that may be is irrelevant. You can discuss such things in the format discussion forum. Discussing it in the deck thread is pointless. Everybody has to decide for themselves which deck to play. If they have questions, there's the format discussion forum. More specifically the "what should I play in my meta"-thread. Here, we try to optimize the Team America list. Maybe, if the meta shifts like a madman, we can discuss the general viability of this deck here, but that's highly unlikely.

I'd like to know how you guys feel about adapting our list to the apparent explosion of Eldrazi Stompy. I personally don't think Eldrazi Stompy will be that big a thing in the long run, but who knows. It can never hurt to prepare for its rise. For instance, I think running main deck Disfigure would make less sense. Going up to 2x Murderous Cut in the main deck could help kill the big dudes. Dismember could also be an option - the better option perhaps. I'm not sure as of yet.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Maybe, on an average that was stretched out as far as the horizon. But if you encounter Storm in the first two rounds, how do you feel?

The thing is, there is no reason to discuss here how this deck is positioned compared to another deck. Whichever deck that may be is irrelevant. You can discuss such things in the format discussion forum. Discussing it in the deck thread is pointless. Everybody has to decide for themselves which deck to play. If they have questions, there's the format discussion forum. More specifically the "what should I play in my meta"-thread. Here, we try to optimize the Team America list. Maybe, if the meta shifts like a madman, we can discuss the general viability of this deck here, but that's highly unlikely.

I'd like to know how you guys feel about adapting our list to the apparent explosion of Eldrazi Stompy. I personally don't think Eldrazi Stompy will be that big a thing in the long run, but who knows. It can never hurt to prepare for its rise. For instance, I think running main deck Disfigure would make less sense. Going up to 2x Murderous Cut in the main deck could help kill the big dudes. Dismember could also be an option - the better option perhaps. I'm not sure as of yet.

OR I could have been promoting Stifle. Honestly, who are you to tell me how to contribute to the thread? It was implied with the recent topic of Stifle that it might be better to stick with Stifle in Delver and allow the more Midrange BUG lists such as Shardless to go the tapout and/or cascade route for sorcery-speed disruption such as Hymn, and allow this deck to be more fluid and hold up Stifle or Pierce here.

Stifle has application against Eldrazi, although it's obvious that more than one line of disruption will be necessary to have an actual balanced matchup vs. them.

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[Xerlic]

I'd like to know how you guys feel about adapting our list to the apparent explosion of Eldrazi Stompy. I personally don't think Eldrazi Stompy will be that big a thing in the long run, but who knows. It can never hurt to prepare for its rise. For instance, I think running main deck Disfigure would make less sense. Going up to 2x Murderous Cut in the main deck could help kill the big dudes. Dismember could also be an option - the better option perhaps. I'm not sure as of yet.
I've been toying with the idea of going -2 Dark Confidant, +1 land (total of 19), +1 Liliana of the Veil and possibly putting a second Lili in the sideboard. I'm currently on the Stifle version of TA.

[Manipulato]

I've been toying with the idea of going -2 Dark Confidant, +1 land (total of 19), +1 Liliana of the Veil and possibly putting a second Lili in the sideboard. I'm currently on the Stifle version of TA.

I think the old classic Hymn/Lili build would be the best Delver suit for fighting the new Eldrazi deck. But it's weaker against Miracles for example, so I think we have to wait a couple of weeks to see how strong the impact is gonna be...Stifle just does near to nothing against them but is better against Miracles, we will see. It's not impossible that the Eldrazi deck will push back Miracles a bit because Miracles has a hard time fighting them...

[btm10]

I'd like to know how you guys feel about adapting our list to the apparent explosion of Eldrazi Stompy. I personally don't think Eldrazi Stompy will be that big a thing in the long run, but who knows. It can never hurt to prepare for its rise. For instance, I think running main deck Disfigure would make less sense. Going up to 2x Murderous Cut in the main deck could help kill the big dudes. Dismember could also be an option - the better option perhaps. I'm not sure as of yet.

I've always been lukewarm on MD Disfigure, but Dismember and Go For the Throat I can get behind more readily. More than 1 Cut seems clunky but it's probably easy enough to avoid it when you don't want it. I tested a 1/1 Disfigure/Dismember split a few weeks ago and it seemed fine, though I didn't test the Eldrazi matchup.

More generally, I'd say that you want 2 Lilianas somewhere in the 75, as well as Disfigure, Cut, or another piece of targeted removal that gets big creatures. I'd probably start from Saito's GP list and work in the second Liliana, the new removal suite, and probably another artifact or enchantment to grow Goyf more reliably.

[David Kaplan]

Has anyone tried Disrupt in the Stifle build? It has wider use compared to Divert and cantrips.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's not a good choice. If you want something like that, play Flusterstorm.

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[and3h]

From what I can tell, would this not compete with daze in some way? They seem like they're trying to do the same thing. Daze is the better choice in my opinion as it's a free spell rather than always paying 1 for the effect, even if it does replace itself.

Probably just my newbie way of card evaluation though

[anakyn]

Hi guys, I recently tested the Eldrazi Stompy matchup: preboard games seems orrible (all countermagic is bad: both FoW and Daze suck hard, Pierce is even worse), while postboard games are better (just slightly favorable for us IMHO, on the back of Hymn/Goyf/Lilly) but I'm looking for some trump card to put in the sideboard for this matchup: some ideas?

Anyway, I guess Hymn build are far better than Stifle builds against Eldrazi.
And Team America is the best Delver deck against them.

[mosaic]

Took down weekly, with my list (17 people):

UW delver, mentor, myth realized, mother of runes 2:0
g1 bad luck draws for him
g2 early Dread of Night was too much

Elves 2:0
g1 key creatures killed, and lucky daze on Natural Order
g2 early engineered plague keeps green men at bay

UG 12post 2:0
g1 hymn was the key, 3x wasteland kept the game in my favor
g2 he mulliganed and was land screwed along with my 2x wasteland helps a lot

Junk depths (?) 2:1
g1 got overruned, mothers rendered my decay into a crap
g2 TNN did its job
g3 he was land screwed, his mothers were killed by dread of night


Deck is insane, although dodged miracles (at least 3 in the room).

[Plague Sliver]

Played a small local weekly yesterday. 3-1.
Beat Miracles, Reanimator, Crazy durdle brew w/ Humility & Ensnaring Bridge.
Lost to Elves.
In R1 of top 4 playoff lost to Food Chain (too many misplays by me).

4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Dark Confidant

4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Ponder
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Abrupt Decay
4 x Force of Will
4 x Daze
2 x Disfigure

4 x Underground Sea
2 x Bayou
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland

Sideboard
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Submerge
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Dismember
2 x Painful Truths
1 x Dread of Night
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Null Rod
1 x Vendilion Clique
1 x Sylvan Library

Bob was great all day. So was Painful Truths out of the board.

I'll have to strongly consider playing Painful Truths in place of Bob main. That would allow me to play 2x Dismember main instead of 2x Disfigure. Dismember answers Tombstalker, Angler, random Eldrazi, Misthollow Griffin, etc.

Delver was easily the worst creature in the deck and I had trouble flipping him at times. But it's a necessary evil.

[grizzle_grizzle]

quick write up from SCGLOU Legacy classic

Bug Delver 8th place
creatures
4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
1 true-name nemisis

Instants
4 Daze
4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 spell pierce
1 dismember

Sorceries
4 Ponder
3 Hymn to tourach
2 thoughseize

Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the veil

Lands
2 Tropical Islands
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


Sideboard
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

Finally got to play a large event post-dtt reign of terror. beloved hymns and lillys got to come back!

rd 1 Eldrazi 2-0 W
glad to face this rd 1 as i had built my list with this m/u in mind. after playing against it, i wasn't that impressed. kind of felt like a worse mud deck. basically tarmogoyf is just better than anything they have. in 2g i took 2 hits from a smasher while i waiting to get up to 3 mana to kill his trinisphere with decay. then i untapped and played 2 5/6 goyfs and that was pretty much it.

rd 2 Bug Delver mirror 2-0 W
similar list to mine with the hymns, but he was missing some key SB cards like lilly and library. these mirrors usually come down to who has more exp with the deck and this time it was me.

rd U/R Delver 1-2 L
Opponent also top 8'd the event. played a very aggressive delver deck featuring stormchaser mage and swiftspear. games 1 and 2 were tight with the person on the play winning each opponent started on the play). g3 i thought i was about to stablize with goyf and decay for storm chase while i was at 13ish life, but i hit with a price of progress for 8 because i needed to play out a fourth land to play goyf and decay. he showed me a second price anyway and w/o counter spells in my hand i would have died either way.

rd 4 Death and Taxes 2-0 W
this is supposed to be a bad m/u for us but i haven't ever lost to it in a sanctioned event. game 1 i just decayed all his stuff and hit mirran crusade with a hymn to tourach. g2 he leads plains vial and respond with bayou pithing needle on vial. he plays a second vial t2 and basically plays nothing of consequence as his hand is destoryed by discard spells. 2nd to last turn of the game i thoughtseize to see vial #3 and cataclysm in his hand. so chalk one up for pithing needle

rd 5 Storm 2-1 W
game 1 kept a decent hand against pretty much any non storm deck and get summarily destroyed. g2 i mull to 5 opponent keeps sketchy 7. my 5 turns out to be great with multiple counters and DRS. g3 opening 7 has the nuts: delver, ponder, daze, fow, fluster, Usea, spell pierce, . first 3 draws are something like Hymn, Daze, and FOW. topped it off with a null rod later in the game while holding 2 FOW and 2 Daze. opponent has LED and petal in his hand.

rd 6 Living Wish-Lands-green sun-Loam hybrid
Opponent presents giant looking deck, I say "tripled sleeved?" he responds with "77 card deck" I'm like :eek: wtf is this dude playing. 3 very interesting drawn out games that i can't really remember. the highlight: g3 spell pierced a living wish while opponent had 3 mana up. this prevented him from getting depths and making a marit leige with thespians stage. he had to get a melira instead to block and i was able to clean up the game. one of the sweetest decks i've seen in a long time though. unfortunately he missed top 16, so i don't have the full list.

rd 7 Burn ID
looked like the top 3 tables could draw in so i offered to it to Ali Antrazi. he thought about it for a minute as he know what i was on, but decided to take the draw.

Quarters Miracles 0-2
lost to Joe Losset playing miracles. made a million mistakes and was just throughly outplayed even though game 2 lasted almost an hour. I was bummed to end the event playing so poorly, but props to Joe for taking it down.

top 5 punts:
1. attempted to FOW a monastery mentor cast off cavern of souls vs Joe. ended up costing me the game b/c i couldn't counter the Jace he landed a few turns later
2. cast a tarmogoyf onto a board of Joe's v clique vs my true-name. broke the cardinal rule of the m/u by playing more than 1 threat and justice is swift and terrible as he blind flips a terminus. i thought i needed to play another creature to win race, but i had 4 draw steps and 2 cantrips in hand to find the removal spell.
3. rd 1 vs eldrazi, opponent has chalice on 1 and 2. i draw decay, cast it on the chalice on 2 for some unknown reason when my game plan was base on casting the 5 1 cc spells i was holding. won b/c my goyfs were able to hold the ground until i drew a decay for the chalice on 1
4. missed a tabernacle trigger vs the 77 card deck while opponent was 2 swings from dying to my goyf. luckily i drew a goyf the next turn and he didn't have anything going on. not listing this first b/c i feel like he was kind of hiding his tabernacle behind his giant ass deck.
5. allowed myself to be jedi mind tricked by Joe. after resolving a goyf he immediately says "'done?"' and respond with "yea" then realize that i didn't activate my lilly that would have allowed me to ult lilly before he ulted jace. i think i still lose b/c he just keeps the jace and sac's everything else and i would have had to hit pithing needle in my last draw, but still terrible.

so yeah lots of rust to shake off, and the deck obviously performed better than i did. it was great to get back out there again; it's been awhile since i have gotten to play a large(ish) event b/c of my 7 month old. Gotta shape up for GP Columbus!

[Xerlic]

Nice writeup. Congrats on the T8!

[Xerlic]

I went to a store last night for the first time that does Legacy events pretty regularly as practice for SCG Philly. Instead of their usual weekly event, they were doing $20 entry with the prize being a Volcanic Island. I usually don't like doing tournaments that are so top heavy because you end up with one person being really happy and a bunch of other people with feel bads after a several hour event, but I wanted to get practice in so here we are. 14 people, so 4 rounds and cut to T4.

Here's my list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Dark Confidant

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce

4x Abrupt Decay
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Dismember
1x Liliana of the Veil

3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
4x Verdant Catacomb
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:

1x Disfigure
1x Dread of Night
2x Flusterstorm
2x Golgari Charm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Winter Orb

I used to play the Stifle build of TA, but with the rise of Eldrazi I jumped over to the heavy black version. In a perfect world, I'd have -1 Trop and +1 Sea, but I only own the 3.

R1 vs. Death and Taxes

G1: On the draw, opp mulls to 6. I take some beats and then kill everything he casts and hymn his entire hand away and stabilize at 3. My board is eventually 1 Liliana and 2 Tarmogoyfs against his board of Vial on 3 and nothing else. I hymn away his last 2 cards and he vials in a Flickerwisp to exile my Liliana and flies over for exact next turn.

SB: +1 Disfigure, +1 Dread of Night, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, -4 Daze, -1 Liliana, -1 Force of Will

G2: I mull to 6. My opponent gets an early start with Thalia into 2 Flickerwisps. My board is eventually Delver and Tarmogoyf and eventually flip a Golgari Charm. I abrupt decay his Thalia in order to cast the Golgari Charm and wrath his board. He eventually casts a Sword of Fire and Ice and finds a Spirit of the Labyrinth to equip it, but goyf holds down the ground while Delver does his thing.

SB: -3 Force, -1 Pierce, +4 Daze

G3: Opp mulls to 6. My opponent drops a SFM on turn 2 and fetches Jitte. I have decay in hand and think about waiting for him to drop the jitte, but I take the riskier play of Hymn to Tourach and manage to get his Jitte and a Mirran Crusader(!). This pretty much decided the game, since I would have auto lost to a Crusader wearing any equipment. I play another Hymn to strip the rest of his hand and start Goyf beats. He plays a mother and a hardcast batterskull, but I have pithing needle on mom. Eventually goyfs get there.

1-0

R2 vs 4c Loam - Only person I know in the store. He's a friend of a friend that I met at SCG NJ.

G1: My notes here simply say "Wasteland", so I'm assuming I attacked his mana and he couldn't cast anything lol.

SB: +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Winter Orb, I can't remember what I took out here since I forgot to write it down, but probably Dismember, Liliana and Dazes - I made a pretty huge mistake here and assumed he was on lands.

G2: My opening hand is 5 spells including a brainstorm, a null rod, a wasteland and 1 fetchland. My opponent leads on wasteland into GSZ for 0 and fetches dryad arbor. I fetch for Sea and cast a brainstorm and see no lands on the top. My opponent plays Mox Diamond and a land, casts Knight of the Reliquary and wastes my Underground Sea. I'm unable to find any colored mana.

SB: -1 Winter Orb, -1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Dismember, -4 Daze, +4 Force

G3: I play land cantrip. My opponent plays land and Mox Diamond. I play land and Null Rod. My opponent stumbles since he was hinging on the Diamond's colored mana and after the game he shows me the 2 other Diamonds in his hand. Null Rod is a hell of a card.

2-0

R3 vs. Eldrazi - This is the deck I wanted to get reps in against. My gameplan is to wasteland/hymn aggressively and find a Goyf asap.

G1: I'm on the draw. My opponent mulls to 6. He has a T1 Mimic, but I waste his Sol Land on my T1. He follows up with a 1-mana land, and I eventually Hymn him out and find a Goyf.

SB: +1 Liliana, +1 Disfigure, +1 Loam, -3 Daze

G2: Not a whole lot of notes on this one. I remember eventually having a Goyf vs. his 2 Matter Reshapers. He attacks his Reshapers into my Goyf. I block one and he flips Dismember off the top. He kills my Goyf and then Wastes my one green source. I'm unable to find another one with 2 more goyfs in hand and he kills me with the other Reshaper.

G3: I have a T1 Delver. He plays a Revoker naming Deathrite, which I fortunately never drew, and plays Chalice on 1, which fortunately my hand is Abrupt Decays and Goyfs. My Delver and Goyfs eventually gets there.

R4 vs. UB Tezz - I figured I could draw into T4, but I get paired down and he wants to play.

G1: I'm on the draw. My opponent casts T1 Dimir Charm off of Ancient Tomb. I play a goyf. He plays a thopter foundry and sword of the meek. I abrupt decay the foundry. He plays another foundry. I force of will. Goyf is a 5/6 and he's eventually exactly at 5. He topdecks an Academy Ruins and is able to get his Foundry back online and makes 5 Thopters. I find another Decay for the Foundry. He gets pretty aggresive and attacks with everything except 1 thopter. I abrupt decay it and my goyf puts him to 1. Eventually I find a deathrite shaman.

SB: -4 Daze, +1 Null Rod, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Golgari Charm

G2: I choke his mana with wastelands and I have 2 early Goyfs that are quickly hitting for 4 each and I get him to 8. He eventually Toxic Deluges for 5, putting himself to 3. We're both topdecking. He plays a Trinisphere and next turn plays a Tezzeret, sacrificing his City of Traitors so he's stuck on swamp and island. He tries to cast Dimir Charm, but I point at his Trinisphere. He uses Tezz to find a Seat of the Synod and casts it. I wasteland his Seat and eventually play a Goyf and a Null Rod. He tries to cast Baleful Strix with Island Swamp and I again point at his Trinisphere. He can only tick Tezz down to make his Dimir Charm into a 5/5. I Decay it and swing for lethal.

4-0

At this point, it's really late and I'm hoping for some kind of split, but the TO says the store owner wants us to play it out because he wants the volcanic out of his case. OK then. I go in as the sole undefeated, so I have top seed. My notes here are really bad since I'm getting tired and want to leave lol.

Semis vs. 4c Loam - same opponent as R2

G1: I must have locked him out of the game because all I wrote was "counters" and my life total only drops from fetches. I remember he cast a loam on exactly 2 lands, which I daze and then he played a land right after aka the walk of shame.

G2: This one was a grind, but he eventually comes out on top. I remember there was an interesting situation where we were both topdecking and I loam to get back 2 lands with 4 lands on board and 2 Force of Wills in hand. We're both topdecking with no boards. I figure with 5 lands I'll be able to pay the alternate cost of tapping 5 lands for both Force of Wills and I can win once I find a piece of action. Unfortunately, he plays a Scavenging Ooze which I have to Force and he follows it up with a gigantic Knight that kills me.

G3: This game was miserable. I play T1 DRS. He wastelands me and plays Mox Diamond. I abrupt decay his Diamond on T2. I eventually find a second DRS and a Liliana, and just pick apart his graveyard while +1'ing Lili to feed the Shamans and -2'ing any creature he plays. I was never able to find another creature, so I kill him from 20 with DRS activations in a game where he has no real way to get back from in a really long and grindy game.

5-0

Finals vs. Eldrazi - Different opponent from R3

G1: I mull to 6. I waste his first sol land and he's never able to get that explosive start to kill me before I start dropping goyfs.

G2: I mull to 5. I put up the good fight by dazing his T2 thought-knot seer and forcing his T3 Reality Smasher, but I can't get goyf bigger than a 4/5 and his endbringer wins it for him.

G3: On the play and I see Goyf and wasteland in my opener. I brainstorm and see 2 more wastelands. That's really all it took.

6-0, +1 Volcanic Island.

All in all, I like how the hymn version of BUG is positioned if Eldrazi becomes a major thing.

[Ryu]

Nice job on winning the tournament! That Volc can go toward your next USea! It seems like the eldrazi deck just gets shut down pretty hard if we waste their Sol lands.

[Goddik]

Hi guys,

Just placed 2nd in BOM Madrid with the same 75 i played in seattle. Higly reccomend you check it out. The list is a brutal killing machine and i feel favoured in most matchups

[ironclad8690]

Hi guys,

Just placed 2nd in BOM Madrid with the same 75 i played in seattle. Higly reccomend you check it out. The list is a brutal killing machine and i feel favoured in most matchups

Here is his list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library


What I want to know is how did you beat not one but two Lands decks in the top8? Lands is so unfavorable from my testing!

[Ryu]

Feels like the community is split on using bob. Can anyone throw out some knowledge on why using TNN is more beneficial than bob? On a side note, Do you use Sower to punish greedy DD plays? That seems like the most ideal play with it.

[mosaic]

Here is his list:

What I want to know is how did you beat not one but two Lands decks in the top8? Lands is so unfavorable from my testing!

From what I have seen in coverage (both vs lands matches are in), Shamans, Submerge and even Liliana made lands.dec plus good play from Goddik, I have seen only 1or2 questionable play in coverage - but no bad play at all, also his lands opponents made couple of mistakes.
From my experience, lands are not that unfavorable, it is by no means anything good or easy, but it is beatable, at least with my list.


@Goddik congratulations to 2nd place!
I believe you must hate the Delvers, imo the reason is that you have "few" spells, that flips them. It was almost ridiculous to watch those 1/1s attacking, fun part is, that it even did not matter.

[Goddik]

Hi guys

A few notes beneath relative to your comments.

1) On Sower - Sower is a very narrow card for shardless bug, which seems to infest the american meta. Since Shardless seemed prevelant down here in the trial, and i thought sower would also be good against the eldrazi deck (theorycrafting), i ran it back. The alternative cards for the slots are a pair of envelops which help with miracles and combo. I would never board this against a lands deck as it seems like a pure pipe dream to hit 4 mana, and have them not play around liliana.

2) On the lands matchup - I used to assume this matchup was horrible, and i am still not super happy about facing it. I am now 3-3 against it in tournaments, with 5 of the matches going to 3 games (making the matchup a high percentage of my match losses). The thing is the "new" combo lands is alot easier to fight then old-school lands. They have fewer mazes, and often spend their energy messing around with the dark depths combo, rather then the combo that actually scares me - Tabernacle + waste lock. Games are won by being super agressive and luck-saccing the right answers at the right time. t1 exploration must be forced, otherwise you risk wastelock, which is worse then marit lage. Be very carefull with what you waste. Sometimes waste needs to hit a green source, sometimes it needs to hit a combo piece, sometimes it needs to hit maze.

In addition, i have seen many of my lands opponents (not my semifinal opponent) make my job much easier by boarding out gambles to bring in random anti hate (e.g. decays). This makes it harder for them to assemble waste-lock tabernacle and makes the matchup significantly easier to win, as they begin to play like a slow combo deck

As a side note my semi-finals opponent was playing turbo depths, a much easier matchup then lands (no waste-lock).

3) On the creature choices:

Dark confidant is inferior to vendillion clique. Dark confidant is only really good against combo and miracles. Against combo we already have very positive matchups and dont need him. Against miracles he is plowed alot. Clique however is an alstar. The game often ends up in board states where we have 2 creatures and the miracle player needs to terminus or he is dead. V. Clique wins the game on the spot in those. It is also one of our only ways to interact with Jace TMS

True-Name nemesis is a plan in himself against midrange matchups, particularly death and taxes, jund and 4 c loam. 4 c Loam is already incredibly favoured, so we do not need his help there. The other two matchups are getting quite rare. He also tempts us to ruin our sideboard because he plays poorly with our sweepers

Tombstalker is a creature that can win alot of matchups by himself. In the deathrite mirrors you basically win by out tempoing your opponent. Tombstalker can break this symmetry by racing like a boss and being practically impossible to kill. In effect he is the better nemesis there. It is very needed for the shardless matchup

In general, in any fair non-miracles matchup we want to play like a glorified merfolk deck. So having many creatures is awesome.

4) On the shardless matchup

This matchup is very often misunderstood on both sides. I rarely see shardless players keep in their forces, and they are surprised when i fow their deathrite, play my own and beat them down while they look at their useless hymns. The matchup is NOT a grindfest, it is a tempo matchup dominated by deathrite blowouts. I therefore keep in fow's otd, and some number otp if i have space, and i think it is almost always incorrect for the shardless players to drop their forces.

[Goddik]

And yeah, i am terrible with delver flips. I also very rarely prioritize it with brainstorms, ponders or sideboarding. I strongly dislike having to play delver, but i guess we cant have 8 deathrites in our deck....

[Zombie]

And yeah, i am terrible with delver flips. I also very rarely prioritize it with brainstorms, ponders or sideboarding. I strongly dislike having to play delver, but i guess we cant have 8 deathrites in our deck....

Maybe GSZ? Gives the early acceleration of DRS while being DRS later on. Also doubles up as extra goyfs in more midrangey gribdfests. Plus Miracles hates Dryad Arbor.

[Bobmans]

And yeah, i am terrible with delver flips. I also very rarely prioritize it with brainstorms, ponders or sideboarding. I strongly dislike having to play delver, but i guess we cant have 8 deathrites in our deck....
So did the Delvers do anything decend at all? Why not ditch them and play midrange?

[Goddik]

Guys, we are an agressive deck that wins by being ahead on board, while we waste/daze/hymn our opponent into nothingness. If we are not ahead on board, most of that stuff becomes useless.

The fact that delver costs 1 mana is super important.

As a sidenote, in the g3 of the quarterfinals. I played ponder and saw wasteland, deathrite, and clique. The delver did not flip bc. i considered that to be the perfect 3 to keep on the ponder, and i really do not mind that it took some time for it to play

[Whitefaces]

Fantastic job, I was really impressed by your play on camera. Super tight and you clearly know your matchups!

I'm going to give your list a spin at my LGS this week and report back here. There is a lot more combo than Shardless at the moment so I'll play Envelops over Sowers in the SB like you say, though I do love Sower so it could be a 1/1 split :tongue:

I'm looking forward to trying out Stalkers and Cliques, your arguments are sound for each. I've been on a 2/2 split of Bob and TNN for quite a while now and hardly losing at my LGS thanks to these guys adding another angle, but Stalker and Clique may just be better versions of both.

Couldn't agree more on the Shardless matchup too, especially on DRS. It's amazing how many hands rely on this guy, FoWing the DRS is a winning line so often. Never understood why Shardless players board out FoW vs tempo decks as well...FoW is exactly that, tempo! Let's let them keep doing it.

Is there anything you'd change from what you played?

[Goddik]

Open concerns with the deck are currently Lands and Eldrazi, which were not majorly on my radar for seattle.

It would be nice to have some relevant sideboard for the lands matchup, but i am not convinced there is a good card we can play. Most of the graveyard hate only comes when the damage is already done (except leyline which is hard to make room for, maybe planar void?) and pithing needle is bordering on irrelevant at times. I guess switching the null rod for a needle is a simple switch that does something. I am very open to suggestions here

As for eldrazi, i expect our matchup is good enough that we dont need anything, if this proves to be wrong we could switch a decay for a dismember in the main, and go to 4 goyf, 2 stalker, likely removing a clique. This would also help against lands. Both moves makes us weaker against miracles

[Esper3k]

I played against it this weekend and felt the matchup was fine (I won).

I do play the Hymn / Thoughtseize version, which pretty much has all the things in a deck that Stompy decks don't want to see - countermagic (to stop their early explosive plays), hand disruption / Wasteland (which increases their natural inconsistency). TNN / Abrupt Decay were hilarious vs Endless One and as expected, Liliana is great vs their deck.

[anakyn]

About the Eldrazi matchup...


I recently played a local tournament where I faced Eldrazi 3 times: 2 in the Swiss (2-1 win) and 1 in semifinal (1-2 lose).
I play 12 creatures + 2 Stalkers, Hymn build with 19 lands, 1 Murderous Cut and 0 Liliana maindeck (1 in sideboard): I'm more on the tempo plan than midrange. 27 "flipping cards" for Delver, so he flips more often than standard Team America builds (but he still sucks compared to other Delver decks).

I would have won all 3 if I didn't miss a double Delver flip in G3 of the semifinal match: I drew Decay and... well, I remembered too late I had 2 unflipped Delvers in play :tongue:

I always lost G1.
Pre-side games are really difficult as any other Delver deck: even if we have Decay which is pretty strong, FoW and Daze are pretty horrible vs Cavern, so I always board them out. A T1 Delver can (rarely) steal some games, Goyf and Hymn are the best cards we have and Stalker does a great job too, but usually they are just stronger/faster than us and we die before stabilizing the board.

Post-board games I feel we are slightly favorite: even if I had no dedicate cards vs them, Thoughtseize and Liliana make a lot of work and Disfigure helps vs Mimic. I had so many cards to board out (4 FoW, 4 Daze, 2 Pierce) that I also boarded in Surgicals and Golgari Charms, even if they didn't do too much.

Without that brain fart about flipping Delvers I would have won 6 post-board games on 6, so I guess we are not that bad positioned against Eldrazi.
I'd say it's a 50-50 matchup: we lose the majority of pre-board games but we win the majority post-board.

I will add a second Liliana in the sideboard, and maybe (just maybe) an Ensnaring Bridge.


Another consideration: IMHO Stifle builds are way weaker in this Eldrazi meta. Stifle itself does nothing, Pierce does very little and Confidant accelerates our end. I like very much this version of Team America but I think it's pretty dead right now.


Fun fact: an Eldrazi deck (the one I lost in semi) won the tournament, losing only a swiss game vs my deck; I was a bit worried about Eldrazi dominance but the other guys' reaction was: "Don't worry, all luck. Eldrazi won't became a thing in Legacy".
Well, I guess they changed their mind now...

[surface33]

4) On the shardless matchup

This matchup is very often misunderstood on both sides. I rarely see shardless players keep in their forces, and they are surprised when i fow their deathrite, play my own and beat them down while they look at their useless hymns. The matchup is NOT a grindfest, it is a tempo matchup dominated by deathrite blowouts. I therefore keep in fow's otd, and some number otp if i have space, and i think it is almost always incorrect for the shardless players to drop their forces.

hey congrats, I went also to BOM but playing shardless. This time I tried to leave fow post board and I remebered why I didnt do it before, daze, if I want to force a deathrite or a delver and the bug delver plays daze I am done, the same goes for spell pierce. What do you think about the state of shardless and team america in the current metagame? also, do you guys think is better to play 4 hymn rather than 2 hymn 2 thoughtseize?

[Goddik]

hey congrats, I went also to BOM but playing shardless. This time I tried to leave fow post board and I remebered why I didnt do it before, daze, if I want to force a deathrite or a delver and the bug delver plays daze I am done, the same goes for spell pierce. What do you think about the state of shardless and team america in the current metagame? also, do you guys think is better to play 4 hymn rather than 2 hymn 2 thoughtseize?

1) They should not have spell pierce after board in the matchup ( or indeed before board...)

2) you can chose to fow the deathrite, or the followup play, or the daze on your disfigure depending on boardstate and to play around their stuff. The play that you want to avoid at all cost is deathrite into wasteland + creature. If he is otp and does that on t2, the game is practically over. If he dazes, then at least he cant tarmogoyf waste you, and you get to have one more land drop. With that draw he was going to daze you sooner or later anyways. There are other plays you may want to fow through, like deluge or liliana, not to mention fighting over jace tms. I likely would not fow a t1 delver barring a really weird hand.

Obviously if your shardless board has 10x disfigure effects, then you can feel free to board out the forces. But the discard does nothing when you are behind in the matchup, and i am super happy when my shardless opponent wastes his time with thoughtseizing and hymning me while i beat him down with the great goyf.

3) I think team america is much better, otherwise i would be playing shardless. Team America, if built well, has matchups against lands, shardless, and fringe creature decks (elves & D&T) which are loosable, but not horrific with the right sideboard. Shardless has problems with both decks that go under it (combo), and over the top (4c loam, lands, the same fringe creature decks etc). I simply feel like i have alot more positive matchups with team america then with shardless

4) TS is a non-card in alot of matchups. Hymn is very good against miracles and eldrazi, can win games by itself in alot of weird matchups, and is at least passable against shardless. It is the card i board out most often. If stoneforge mystic decks come back, i might reconsider thoughtseize, but for now i am very happy with hymn. It is good anti-bullshit protection

[Goddik]

5) I am not convinced it is right to board out daze and fow against eldrazi. Firstly because there are other things you may want to fow/daze (dismember on goyf, chalice in some spots, trinisphere), secondly because you have wastelands for their caverns. I would generally prioritize wasting these over their stompy lands. I sideboarded very little in the matchup

[surface33]

1) They should not have spell pierce after board in the matchup ( or indeed before board...)

2) you can chose to fow the deathrite, or the followup play, or the daze on your disfigure depending on boardstate and to play around their stuff. The play that you want to avoid at all cost is deathrite into wasteland + creature. If he is otp and does that on t2, the game is practically over. If he dazes, then at least he cant tarmogoyf waste you, and you get to have one more land drop. With that draw he was going to daze you sooner or later anyways. There are other plays you may want to fow through, like deluge or liliana, not to mention fighting over jace tms. I likely would not fow a t1 delver barring a really weird hand.

Obviously if your shardless board has 10x disfigure effects, then you can feel free to board out the forces. But the discard does nothing when you are behind in the matchup, and i am super happy when my shardless opponent wastes his time with thoughtseizing and hymning me while i beat him down with the great goyf.

3) I think team america is much better, otherwise i would be playing shardless. Team America, if built well, has matchups against lands, shardless, and fringe creature decks (elves & D&T) which are loosable, but not horrific with the right sideboard. Shardless has problems with both decks that go under it (combo), and over the top (4c loam, lands, the same fringe creature decks etc). I simply feel like i have alot more positive matchups with team america then with shardless

4) TS is a non-card in alot of matchups. Hymn is very good against miracles and eldrazi, can win games by itself in alot of weird matchups, and is at least passable against shardless. It is the card i board out most often. If stoneforge mystic decks come back, i might reconsider thoughtseize, but for now i am very happy with hymn. It is good anti-bullshit protection
mm interesting point, thanks. Also what do you think of the stifle version? I used to play that because stifle is good against lands and miracles, well against a lot of decks. It is true is bad against eldrazi, but is that enough to not play it? I used to play a similar list like the one that won the madrid mkm with 4 stifle 2 hymn and 2 thouhtsize, I think that going to 3 stifle 19 land and 4 hyms could be an option with your arguments.

[Goddik]

On Stifle:

I have tried hard to make stifle happen, but usually end up regretting it. Stifle generally conflicts with our mostly 2-drop deck, as we want to tap out every turn. If you think stifle is good, you would be better served playing grixis delver, which can much easier afford to hold mana open.

With regards to matchups:

Midrange

Stifle used to be good in midrange blue mirrors, because they went long, and so a stifle on a fetchland would, if nothing else generally result in them having to keep lands on their brainstorms. It is indeed still very good against miracles, where a stifle hymn version is definately a good place to be

The problem is that most midrange blue mirrors now play deathrite shaman, and stifle is the worst card in the universe when they have deathrite shaman, and doesnt help you ride the nutdraws of your own deahtrite shaman.

Combo

With regards to combo, i am not too convinced it is actually that good. You can sometimes get storm and show&Tell on their manabase, but they can easily play around it when going off.

The end result is that stifle is a quite narrow card that is only really awesome against miracles. At that stage i would rather prioritize sylvan libraries, lilianas, cliques etc that do something against a wider spread of decks

Lands is an interesting comment, but i am not super convinced it would swing that matchup

[surface33]

On Stifle:

I have tried hard to make stifle happen, but usually end up regretting it. Stifle generally conflicts with our mostly 2-drop deck, as we want to tap out every turn. If you think stifle is good, you would be better served playing grixis delver, which can much easier afford to hold mana open.

With regards to matchups:

Midrange

Stifle used to be good in midrange blue mirrors, because they went long, and so a stifle on a fetchland would, if nothing else generally result in them having to keep lands on their brainstorms. It is indeed still very good against miracles, where a stifle hymn version is definately a good place to be

The problem is that most midrange blue mirrors now play deathrite shaman, and stifle is the worst card in the universe when they have deathrite shaman, and doesnt help you ride the nutdraws of your own deahtrite shaman.

Combo

With regards to combo, i am not too convinced it is actually that good. You can sometimes get storm and show&Tell on their manabase, but they can easily play around it when going off.

The end result is that stifle is a quite narrow card that is only really awesome against miracles. At that stage i would rather prioritize sylvan libraries, lilianas, cliques etc that do something against a wider spread of decks

Lands is an interesting comment, but i am not super convinced it would swing that matchup
yeah the drs point is good but for lands it might give you enough time to win.
Iam planning on running this list:
4 x deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 dark confidant
1 true name nemesis

4 FOW
4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
1 spell pierce
4 hymn to tourach
1 liliana of the veil

19 ands

The reason for this is that I dont like playing 20 lands with delver(I like the greedy part of the deck) and wanted to keep the mana curve a bit bellow yours to avoid mana problems. I will also consider: -1 TNN -2 confidant + 2 tomb stalker, +1 vendilion but my meta is full of D&t and miracles so against swords and karakas TNN seems better. Against d&t do you abrupt the vial to find use for your counters or do you save the abrupt for equipments? I have a lot of experience in this MU and if they get a vial to 3 is almost game over. I would rather destroy the vial and force the mirran. Also use a fow in the mother of runs turn 1? just want to hear other points of view

[Zombie]

Combo

With regards to combo, i am not too convinced it is actually that good. You can sometimes get storm and show&Tell on their manabase, but they can easily play around it when going off.

The end result is that stifle is a quite narrow card that is only really awesome against miracles. At that stage i would rather prioritize sylvan libraries, lilianas, cliques etc that do something against a wider spread of decks

The thing about Stifle vs. combo is... wouldn't you rather be wrecking them with gravehate+Hymn? I tried playing the Stifle version and it just didn't feel good. Hymn+Lili version fits my mindset better at least, as a general shell. The miser's Stifle is something I can stand behind, though. A single Stifle can be brutal. A Stifle-based gameplan, nah.

[anakyn]

I find Tombstalker to be really underrated.

Most people say it's bad against white because of StP and RIP, but I never side it out vs D&T (which plays both) and, even if sometimes they land turn-2 RIP and make Stalker weird, most of the times you can land it before that happens, in which case he can win alone if they already spent an StP on some other creature. And anyways we have Decay for RIP, so Stalker is live in lategame too.
Against DnT I feel Stalker is nearly as strong as Goyf, since they have to play RIP before we land it.

Against Miracles (which also plays both StP and RIP) is another large threat they have to care about, or die.
Here Goyf is much better because it lands much faster, and because Stalker sucks against Jace's -1; yet I think it's decent against Miracles too.


Most people also say it's weaker than Nemesis, but:
- we can play Stalker with only 19 lands, while Nemesis should require us to go to 20
- Stalker ends games faster
- in my opinion, Stalker is stronger than Nemesis vs Eldrazi, because he blocks as well as Nemesis when we have to stay on defense, but he can end the game faster when we counter-attack
...so I guess Stalker is better than Nemesis if we wanna head towards the tempo strategy.


The only matchups where Stalker sucks is combo, which is a great matchup for us anyways: it's too slow (like Nemesis), and it doesn't pitch to FoW (unlike Nemesis).
In any other matchups, I feel it's strong.

[btm10]

The thing about Stifle vs. combo is... wouldn't you rather be wrecking them with gravehate+Hymn? I tried playing the Stifle version and it just didn't feel good. Hymn+Lili version fits my mindset better at least, as a general shell. The miser's Stifle is something I can stand behind, though. A single Stifle can be brutal. A Stifle-based gameplan, nah.

I think Goddik aggrees with you.

[janchu88]

how do you feel about stifle in the SB against other Tempo decks, since often it comes down to mana denial?

PS: Shardless Player here, who wants to try Team America

PPS: Goddik, we were talking in front of the Marriot right after Top 8, u told me not to play Dark Confidant if you remember :D

[mosaic]

@anakyn, well Nemesis is also great against Miracles, as they really need to find terminus for it as they have no other outs. Also Lands matchup is way better with Nemesis as it is the only thing that get through their Mazes, it stops and can kill Mirran Crusader like a champ ... and not to mention, against many decks it just show inevitable end. I am not saying, that it is better then stalker, he is amazing, played him for a long time (even before Delver was born with Innistrad), he can close games quickly and I always want to fit him in, the thing is, I can, but then the Delver flipping too late will cost me games, for the same reason i do not MD Liliana.


In my meta with D&T, Jund, Lands, Miracles, Storm, Grixis Delver, 4c Delver, Shardless Bug, NicFit, UG Cloudpost, 4cLoam ... I rather stick with Nemesis as it suits me better. Stalker is just another option, not being worse or better, both solutions have their merits. In the vacuum, imo it is more important to learn/drill upside down the version which you like/prefer.
This might of course change, when meta shifts towards -x/-x spells, like Toxic Deluge, Golgary Charms and such, then Stalker version becomes much better.


As for Lands matchup, Winter Orb is life saver, it buys the time which TA needs, and also has its uses against Miracles. Both matchups are not that great. Orb basicaly exploits Shamans even more, turn Dazes back on, as TA can easily play with just one land and Shaman in play and do very well.

[Zombie]

I think Goddik aggrees with you.

Yeah I didn't mean to disagree, just add my own experience and say that I agree.

[anakyn]

@ mosaic

Yes, I agree: Nemesis is better in certain metas, but it also fits better certain TA builds.

When I was playing Stifle/Bob version, my creature of choice was Nemesis and not Stalker. Now that I play Hymn "tapout" version, I lean toward a tempo-aggro strategy, so I prefer 19 lands, no Liliana (higher probability of flipping Delver) and Stalker because it's faster in closing games.

[H]

One other thing to note about TNN is that it is not graveyard reliant at all, so, in the face of RiP it certainly has merit just based off that.

Not that I am disagreeing with anyone, TNN still doesn't go into all the builds (I think it's much better in the Stifle build).

[Whitefaces]

I took Goddiks list (with a few SB changes due to card availability) to my LGS last night and went 4-0 beating Enchantress, Esper Mentor, UW Landstill and MUD (so take the results with a touch of salt :tongue:)

The power level of the deck is absurd, Enchantress actually felt like the hardest matchup due to MD RiP etc. One of the key strengths of the creature base seems to be the evasion. Eight flyers and DRS activations end games very fast while Tarmogoyf holds the ground, love it.

The manabase felt a little wonky at times (not the fault of the build, just the prohibitive BB costs) but the power level of individual cards leverages stumbles. I've been on the Stifle build for such a long time I'm used to fetching a Sea into Trop, but it seems like a lot of hands want a Sea turn one and turn two?

On the SB, would the Pierces be better as Flusterstorms? We have Decays to answer things like Chalices, Spheres, Counterbalance etc. Is the edge Fluster has over pierce in Delver mirrors worth the swap? Jace is the only thing I can think of that Fluster misses and can't be decayed.

Here it is again for reference.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Submerge (changed third to a Disfigure)
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sower of Temptation (changed to Envelops)
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library (changed to Life from the Loam)

[H]

While I like that list in theory, in actual practice, once you have that many creatures, wouldn't it be better to drop Delver and run a more midrange deck? There are only 23 Instants and Sorceries, which means flipping Delver seems dicey, at best.

[Manipulato]

I took Goddiks list (with a few SB changes due to card availability) to my LGS last night and went 4-0 beating Enchantress, Esper Mentor, UW Landstill and MUD (so take the results with a touch of salt :tongue:)

The power level of the deck is absurd, Enchantress actually felt like the hardest matchup due to MD RiP etc. One of the key strengths of the creature base seems to be the evasion. Eight flyers and DRS activations end games very fast while Tarmogoyf holds the ground, love it.

The manabase felt a little wonky at times (not the fault of the build, just the prohibitive BB costs) but the power level of individual cards leverages stumbles. I've been on the Stifle build for such a long time I'm used to fetching a Sea into Trop, but it seems like a lot of hands want a Sea turn one and turn two?

On the SB, would the Pierces be better as Flusterstorms? We have Decays to answer things like Chalices, Spheres, Counterbalance etc. Is the edge Fluster has over pierce in Delver mirrors worth the swap? Jace is the only thing I can think of that Fluster misses and can't be decayed.

Here it is again for reference.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
3 Submerge (changed third to a Disfigure)
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Sower of Temptation (changed to Envelops)
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library (changed to Life from the Loam)

You & Goddick missing 4 Wasteland, right?

[Whitefaces]

While I like that list in theory, in actual practice, once you have that many creatures, wouldn't it be better to drop Delver and run a more midrange deck? There are only 23 Instants and Sorceries, which means flipping Delver seems dicey, at best.

I don't think so, this is still a tempo deck utilizing Daze and Wasteland and as such is more often the beatdown deck than not, you need to be applying pressure early. You still have Ponders and Brainstorms to help flip it too. 23 is a reasonable, albeit greedy, number of spells while 15 is hardly an unusually high number of creatures for TA. As mentioned a few pages back, if we could run Shamans 5-8 it'd be a no-brainer, but for curve considerations Delver is the best option.


You & Goddick missing 4 Wasteland, right?

Good catch, I just copy and pasted the list from a few pages back. Definitely four Wasteland!

[Ryu]

I am feeling like an idiot right now but is there not a primer for 4c delver? I see it talked about a lot but I can't seem to find it in any of the legacy development boards.

[Wombo Combo]

I am feeling like an idiot right now but is there not a primer for 4c delver? I see it talked about a lot but I can't seem to find it in any of the legacy development boards.

Depends on what you mean by 4c delver. If you want the thread with maindeck green spells and tarmogoyf: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26647-Deck-bUrg-Tempo
If you want the grixis deck that plays young pyromancer:http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29665-DTB-Grixis-Tempo

[zhandro]

I'm sure whether or not I run Hymn vs Thoughtseize and how many Liliana's will affect the answer, but I was wondering if I could play Bug Delver if I have the following duals: 4 Tropicals, 2 Bayou, 2 Underground Sea. I've been working towards getting the playset of Goyfs and am holding off until later to get the last few Underground Seas, so that in the meantime I can play a deck first. Is this possible/advisable?

[Goddik]

Yeah, you usually want to fetch Usea Usea, or Usea Bayou.

Spell pierce is exactly to be able to counter jace. I am not to bothered about other applications as we win combo anyways. I never board them in for delver mirrors where daze and fow do the work much better

You can certainly play the deck at a local tournament with only 2 seas. Just replace the last with darkslick shores, more fetches or watery graves (or something more creative).

One idea i would be interested in trying out would be winter orbs for the sideboard. With overlap between miracles and lands, it would allow space for some lands slots

[janchu88]

i´ve been testing around the last few days with different approaches and finally tested goddiks list which felt great. How do guys think about the grixis delver matchup? Tested against several decks and had the impression that grixis was a tough one, even if you win the DRS/Ressource battle, basically their burnspells favor them at racing, while your hymns become dead pretty soon. At least Preboard i usually felt clunkier and couldnt fit a real control role either, cause its hard to control Young Pyromancer preboard or the Gurmag Angler

[Goddik]

The matchup is fine

Level 1: Deathrite advantage - FOW/Daze deathrite agressively
Level 2: Bomb advantage - They have gurmag angler, you have goyf/stalker/liliana

Their bolts give them some advantage in level 1, your creatures give you advantage in level 2.

They delvers and Young peezis are super easy to kill, and usually only really get you if they get too far ahead in level 1. I have a strong dislike for peezy.

Tips and tricks to win the bomb war
1) Use your wastelands as mana + to "tap your oponent out" by wasting untapped sources before you need to daze through key plays
2) Board out hymns, keep all dazes and fows (otp and otd)
3) play your bombs when you can protect them with countermagic

Think of yourself as something akin to a 1-card combo deck with tarmogoyf/stalker/liliana as your combo

[janchu88]

thanks for the great explanation :)

will give it a shot asap, this Weekend ive got a local tournament where i will give it a try. If i dont fail miserably on the supertest this weekend, i think im going to play it at Prague eternal as well

[and3h]

You could always include darkblast in your sideboard mix if you're having issues with delvers and young pyromancer. Or even maelstrom pulse if you wanted a less narrow but more expensive option.

[Manipulato]

@Goddick: Could you give us a short sideboarding plan gainst the most common decks with your list? Really looking Forward playing your list at my next locals, would be great! Thx.

[Xerlic]

I, too, would like to see a sideboard guide. A lot of it is obvious, but stuff like Jace the Mindsculptor seems so foreign to me in a Delver list.

I'm also sleeving up Goddik's list for my next Legacy local. Ironically, I was able to find a second Vendilion Clique really easily, but still haven't found anyone with 2 Tombstalkers for trade. :laugh:

[Goddik]

Hi guys

Here are my sideboarding notes for the build against a couple of usual archetypes.

Shardless
-4 Hymn
- 3 Fow/Daze (Play/Draw)

+3 submerge
+2 Jace
+2 Sower

Lands
-4 Decay
+3 Suberge
+1 Spell pierce (not very good, but it is whats in the sideboard)

4c Loam
+3 submerge
-3 Hymn

Maybe cut the last hymn for sylvan

Miracles
-4 Daze
-2 Waste
+2 Pierce
+1 Null Rod
+1 Sylvan
+2 Jace

You can cut more wastes for envelop if you have them

Elves
+3 Submerge
+2 Toxic
+2 GG Charm
-2 Tombstalker
-1 V. Clique/Delver
-4 Daze

Cut more creatures for envelop if you have them

Dnt
-4 Fow
-4 Daze
-2 Delver

+2 GG Charm
+2 Toxic
+1 Sylvan
+2 Jace
+2 Sower
+1 Nullrod

You are control in the matchup. Otp it could be correct to shave more creatures to keep some dazes. Creatures often get plowed/brickwalled, so the usual gameplan is to kill everything that moves and eventually find a jace that brainstorms until they are dead. Prioritize lands and sweepers on the ponders

Storm
-4 Decay
-2 Stalker

+1 Null Rod
+2 Pierce
+1 Sylvan
+2 GG Charm

Cut more creatures for envelop if you have them/ toxic deluge if you know they are heavily on the gobbo plan

Grixis delver
-4 Hymn
+2 GG Charm
+2 Toxic

Mirror
+3 Submerge
-3 Hymn
(You can board jaces or sowers, i usually dont, but i know people i respect that do. In that case i would shave the last hymn and a fow/daze depending on play/draw. Bringing 4 4 drops in seems ambitious).

It may be right to shave the last hymn for the sylvan library

Eldrazi
+2 Sower
-2 Clique

Alternatively, an option is to cut a further 2 delvers otd to make room for Jace TMS and play around chalice. I doubt they can beat Jace

[DaDitka]

Goddik, congrats on the results, they speak for themselves.

Before seeing your success I was running this list and was pretty happy with it:

Lands - 19:
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Underground Sea
2 x Bayou
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Wasteland

Creatures - 14:
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x True-Name Nemesis
1 x Vendilion Clique

Spells - 27:
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
2 x Thoughtseize
4 x Daze
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Force of Will

Sideboard - 15:
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Spell Pierce (or Envelope, or 1 x SP and 1 x Flusterstorm, this will probably become Invasive Surgery)
1 x Disfigure (or 1 x Dark Blast)
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Null Rod
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Dark Confidant
1 x Sylvan Library
2 x Submerge
1 x Liliana of the Veil

At our Legacy weekly last night I tried out a list much closer to yours. The only main deck differences were +1 Goyf, -1 V. Clique, and +1 Ponder, -1 land.

I didn't run the second T. Deluge or any Jaces in the SB.

I really like the idea of just going bigger, but in practice most of my draws felt somewhat clunky. I played against Lands, Elves, Stompy, and Miracles.

Tombstalker always felt hard to land. He would sit in my hand staring at me early when I wanted to play a threat and then later I would often not feel like I had the time to deploy a tomb stalker that could easily be answered or attacked around to close out a game. The four hymn were sweet though (double hymning someone is awesome). Maybe I should be running 4 hymn whether or not I play stalker.

Also, the delvers felt way worse than usual. One game I played double delver on turn 2 and they didn't flip for 6 turns (then again, this can happen with any configuration of lists).

Any thoughts on why this version didn't feel as smooth to me? It is possible the slight card changes make the deck play out differently and so I was prioritizing the wrong things.

[Goddik]

Hard to say

The deck is very much a 75 card deck though. Some matchups will play out very differently without the toxic and jace, as that means you cannot take on the control role. One of the main strengths of the deck is the ability to switch roles after board.

you btw hit all the matchups where i would consider boarding tombstalker out. He is pretty bad against miracles, we just have worse cards to throw out. Same counts for lands, although a bad tarmogoyf there, is still a way to kill them through punishing fires.

[Bobmans]

@Goddik, How do you feel about your list and going to 19 lands and add the 4th Ponder?
Currently i am looking towards thay option, along with going to 4 Goyf and 1 Stalker.

[Xerlic]

Lands
-4 Decay
+3 Suberge
+1 Spell pierce (not very good, but it is whats in the sideboard)

4c Loam
+3 submerge
-3 Hymn

Maybe cut the last hymn for sylvan
You don't like Null Rod in these matchups for Mox Diamond?

[mosaic]

I can't help it, what about to go with Goddik's list, get to know it from all perspectives first, instead of trying to modify to your liking? (almost every one tend to does that, myself included)
IMO each version of this deck require its own playstyle, even few changes will have huge impact on how to play the deck. Let me quote part of Goddik's response "The deck is very much a 75 card deck though"
TA is a deck with lot of options (hymn, stalker heavy, stifle, confidant etc), it is also deck, that has game almost against every possible deck one can imagine, it is also deck, that has no match-up considered "autowin/autolose", one hase to fight hard every game, which is exhausting in a long tournament. On the other hand, that is what makes this deck good in right hands.
I know, that I will do better with version I have experience with, meanwhile, why not try out other options. But do not get disappointed when score is not exactly x:0 every time.

btw: thanks Goddik for sideboard how-to with your list!

P.S. I do not play his version, my plan is still TNN, posted few pages back, but I am going to try Goddik's "retro" version for sure.

[janchu88]

well, just came back from the local event i mentioned earlier and after i had a short break for some awesome sandwhiches (http://abload.de/img/img_20160305_175553jso4x.jpg) here is my report :)

This was the 75 i played, i am still missing some cards so i had to make a few changes. Mostly i am missing the 2 Sower of Temptation, cause i imagine them really good in the Matchups, where you want to bring them in

http://deckstats.net/deck-9357437-fc8666f8a364b999c7ae1cfb9298f229.html

Maindeck i was missing the 7th Fetch target and one Tomb Stalker, i replaced those by a swamp and TNN. The Swamp is just a temporary Solution, cause i simply do not have another U-Sea nor the Trop, but i will get something soon. Along with the Dual i was missing the 2nd Tombstalker, but added a TNN instead, which i think isnt the worst replacement afterall. My Sideboard looked slightly different, but i will include Sower of Temptation and the 3rd Submerge asap. Anyway, lets get to the games i played.

Round 1 - UB Reanimator: I win the die roll and keep an opener containing Delver, Force, Daze, BS, Ponder and 2 Fetchlands. Against unknown i felt pretty comfortable with it, fetch for Underground Sea play Delver and say go. My Opponent opens up with Careful Study, discarding Iona and Grizzlebrand. I consider dazing it, but dont because i like to rather go for his reanimation spells with Daze + Force Backup. Anyway, on Turn 2 i take care of the delver flipping with BS, and look for some additional disruption, but cant find anything relevant. Relying on my Delver as clock and Daze + Force Backup i pass the turn and lose to his reanimate on grizzlebrand, sadly with Daze + Force backup as well.

-4 Hymn
+ Flusterstorm
+ Spell Pierce
+ 2 Submerge, expecting the green Splash for decay

Game 2 was rather quick. I draw DRS, Daze, Submerge, Wasteland, Fetchie + X. I open up with Fetch, Tropical, DRS and pass the turn. His turn 1 is Underground Sea, Petal, Petal, Entomb, Reanimate => GG, played it to the end, but he never fetched for a green Source and he counters my hardcast sumberge.

yeah, great Start at with 0:2. But to be honest, i havent been that sad afterall. Having playtested Reanimator for some time, i know how rare this draws with Combo + multiple protection are and im perfectly fine with having lost to those draws, because pretty much 95% of the field would lose to them. I think i might have been wrong not dazing the careful study, but in this case there wouldnt have been any difference, cause he had the counters anyway.

0-1 Overall

Round 2 - 4 Color Loam: Game 1 was close. First Delver gets hit by P Fire, Hymn takes down Dark Confidant and Abrupt Decay. The board is Tarmogoyf + TNN on my side, he has just Lands and a Chalice @ 1. We are both empty handed and his Lifecount drops quickly. My next few Topdecks are Bricks (Lands + Delvers) and he manages to find a decay, KoTR and last but not least a Zenith that goes and gets Scavenging Ooze which wins him the game, since he was at 1 life and is able to gain life and Race my TNN. Well, not sure i did any major misplays, but i think the Boardstate i accomplished should generally favor me?

- 3 Delver
- 1 Clique
+ 2 Submerge
+ Spell Pierce
+ Fluster Storm

I wanted to get rid of some Creatures that die to PFire and Chalice on 1, so i went this route regarding the SB. Have to mulligan to 5, cause my first to hands, where usea + 6 spells without can trip and wasteland only at 6. I didnt want to lose to a single wasteland with my initial seven, it felt like too much of a Gamble. At 5 Cards i find 2 Lands, Ponder, Goyf, Hymn and we got some game going. As expected he anwsers my Turn 1 Ponder with a wasteland on his side, so i think i was correct to not take the gamble. A few turns later i have Tarmogoyf + TNN on the board again and hymn him but it hits nothing relevant. Short after he plays Toxic Deluge, followed up by liliana the next turn and i never find a way back. Well 0-2 again sadly, but regarding the fact that i went down to 5 cards, i still had some pretty game. If i imagine having had those 2 extra hand cards, for example to have a counter up for deluge, it wouldve been a win for sure. So mixed feelings on my side, but im ok with it and it didnt feel miserable afterall. Honestly i think the matchup should pretty solid in general and absolutely winnable.

0-2 Overall, welcome to the losers bracket. Anyway i wanted to get some games going to gain some confidence in piloting it.

Round 3 - The Rack Artifact Burn Control(?!): Some interesting homebrew but nothing too relevant going on. Longstory short: I win 2-1

1-2 Overall

Round 4 - Goblins: He told me afterwards he tested it against Eldrazi, had a positive Matchup and wanted to rogue the meta (There were several Eldrazi decks around). I win the die roll, Turn 1 Delver, Daze his Vial, Delver Flips, Decay his followups, Hymn away his last handcards and win soon.

- 4 FoW
- 4 Daze
+ 2 Deluge
+ 2 Charm
+ 1 Jace
+ 1 Library
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 1 Jitte

Game 2 can be described as : Double Goyf, Deluge, Win. Add some random cantrips/fetches and there we go :D

2-2 overall

Round 5 (Last Round) - Burn: Mehhhh, burn. Lost the die roll and get burned into oblivion pretty quick game 1, nothing special to report here.

- 2 Wasteland
- 1 Clique
+ Jitte
+ Spell Pierce
+ Flusterstorm

Game 2 was the "easy" part since i am on the play. I have Delver + DRS in my opener and decide to open up on delver so i can race and im ok with him burning it away, rather than my DRS. My Followup DRS sadly gets searing blazed. My Lifecount is still pretty high anway and through fetching and cantripping im able to land T3 Tombstalker, which is followed up by Jitte and i win the Race. While Racing the only thing i did was deploying a wasteland to possibly target my own lands, which proved a great idea, because he told me afterwards that he had double Price of Progress :laugh:

Game 3 was the real struggle. He starts with burning me to the face and follows up with an eidolon. I decay his eidolon, take some more burn to the face, I hymn him down to 1 handcard and from there on can force him into topdeck mode with liliana. My Lifecount suffered a lot and im down to 2 Life in between, but with some cantripping i manage to get 2 DRS online and recover myself to 8 Life. At some Point i find a Goyf, which starts to go beatdwon mode and somehow manage to stay alive, through discarding Creatures, Spell Piercing his Burn Spells, etc. Not the nicest game, but somehow i got there :D

3-2 Overall. Anything but an overwhelming result, especially after the 0-2 start. But still im fine with those losses and the way i lost those games, especially regarding Round 1 against reanimator. After the Tournament ended, i get a "competetive" game going against a Death and Taxes Player which i didnt get paired against during the Tournament. Long Story Short i end up winning 2-1 against Death and Taxes and i am happy to have played that other matchup as well, just to get some practice. Just as goddik said, it comes down to being the control player and the Sideboard is great for that purpose. Btw something i didnt think of before, Clique is awesome against Stoneforge + Spirit of the Labyrinth - take your Equipment and you dont draw anything :cool::laugh:

yeah, so here we go with my 2 cents. Final Thoughts - Need some more practice but its fun and its capable of anything

[Asthereal]

Hey guys,

So I'm back on the wagon. I played Team America exclusively in 2014, doing really well (for me, at least, being not the best player ever :wink: ). Last year I tried different stuff, failing every time, and after hating Jund for having no proper card selection even when I ran 3x Top I decided to reconnect with the dark side of the aggressive midrange decks. As some of you here may know, I have been on the Hymn version before, and only insanely sick stuff like Treasure Cruise ever managed to lure me away from that. So my new old list would have the same 4x Hymn to Tourach. Free wins are free, right? (or not...)

Legacy does look a tad different now. We have the Eldrazi thing, Shardless seems okayish now (not the greatest matchup) and Miracles seems to have a bad time against those Eldrazi dudes, which is nice because I don't like Miracles. Not that it's such a terrible matchup, I just don't like it. So how to tune my Hymn list? I want proper removal for Eldrazi, so at least two removal spells that hit CMC4+, I want creatures that don't die to everything, are big-ish and not graveyard dependant, since everybody seems to be hating the grave lately, and I want enough lands to cast this, while also playing one additional turn one play, sinci I tend to brick on those. So I need this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis (graveyard undependant, reliable beater) /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach.
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Thoughtseize (turn one play)
1 Dismember (kills big Eldrazi)
1 Liliana of the Veil (kills big Eldrazi) /27

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /20

That's 61 cards. So what do I cut? Thoughtseize is my 13th turn one play (not counting Brainstorm, which I want to hold on to for more value). I brick on those. I want one extra. The 20th land is kind of necessary when you play both BB spells like Hymn and Lily and UU spells like TNN. I really want to have at least 14 guys to make sure I have enough pressure to be able to beat controllish matchups. Lastly, I want the two big removal cards. So there's one last option: move a Force of Will to the board. But I'm playing very close to home. Expect at least a significant amount of Storm. Besides, Force is good against Eldrazi as well. Or any "hit or miss"-type of deck. I want the full set. So I decided not to decide. Someone calculated the difference between playing 60 cards vs. 61 cards, and it was so marginal that I did not want to give up the advantages I planned to tune my list to have. 61 cards it was.

Now for the board. Some stuff for combo, some stuff for Elves and D&T, some grave hate, some Miracles hosers, some extra stuff against Eldrazi, some I don't know what. Man, building a sideboard is messy. You never know what you will face in a smallish event. People own and want to play multiple decks, so basically you could face anything from SCG tier1 to old tech tier1.9 decks. It's tough. But yesterday was Modern and there were ~27% Eldrazi players who could -apart from one who sold his stuff- all play Eldrazi again. Also I never go below 2x grave hate. So I coughed up these 15. Might be wrong, but in hindsight everying seems to be, so whatever. :tongue: one small consideration: I usually play 1x Surgical 1x Cage, but I expected the Eldrazi, who seem to play 5 to 6 grave hate pieces in the board, to scare people away from playing Dredge. This caused me to pick the more versatile hate (2x Surgical).

2 Envelop
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Golagri Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vendilion Clique /15

So here we go. Pairings are up. I play a certain fellow called Tomasz. Or Tomek, as we call him. I'm not even sure why. He drove us there. Cool guy, good player. He's on Shardless. Bad matchup, good player, and to top it off he saw a picture of my deck on Facebook. Hmm...

Round 1: Shardless. 0-2
What can I say? I'll say I made at least three errors. I boarded wrong and I made two play errors. But if I had done everyhting right I'd probably have lost anyway. But okay, admittedly, my errors made this such an uphill battle I was absolutely chanceless. I mean, I had to exile my TNN, which I wanted two copies of specifically for matchups alike this one so I would have a better chance, to be able to Force of Will his Jace. Yes, I wanted to let Jace resolve and murder it with TNN, but I didn't have enough blue mana, because he killed my lands aggressively. Okay, looks like we drive the fail train again.

Round 2: Esper Mentor control.
Inexperienced player. I was losing, if I were playing me. But I wasn't. He had me game one: Jace on the board, I had nothing for quite a long time. But then I found TNN. He had a Snapcaster. Snappy has flash, so we get to use it at end of turn. That seems like a good idea, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. For instance, your only out, which is the Toxic Deluge lying in your graveyard pile right now, is a sorcery, so you can't use it then. He Brainstormed, found horse crap and conceded. Game 2 I won because my deck was better, but okay, I shouldn't feel bad about game 1, actually I should feel even better, because game 1 I won because I was the better player. He'll catch up though. :wink:

Round 3: Eldrazi (with a touch of white)
Okay, let's face it: I have no idea what I am doing here. Never played the matchup, don't know what it usually does in Legacy. In Modern, Eldrazi Stompy is an insanely powerful deck, and in Legacy they get stuff like Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and I know not what. Personally, I'd add Lodestone Golems, for instance, but no one did. We'll see what happens if they tune that deck properly, but we have what we have, and my round went like this. no nut draws for him. I make a guy, I kill his guys, I counter his good stuff, and generally go on to dominate the match. I never expected this matchup would feel the most comfortable, but it did. Perhaps I was lucky and he was unlucky, or perhaps we just fear the Eldrazi menace too much. I'm not sure yet.

Round 4: ANT
Sad round. I didn't know what he was on, so I kept a fine hand for almost everything, but a tad silly against fast combo: 3 lands (no fetch), deathrite, goyf, daze, lily. I drew a Ponder. Good stuff, but he can discard Lily and play around Daze. He chose the other way around. Probe and then Duress for Daze. He drew 45 lands afterwards. I wish I was kidding. yes he may have made an error Duressing Daze away, but he only neded one business spell to go off. He drew lands though. Game 2 was a battle. Which I won because Charm kills goblin tokens and Ad Nauseam from 7 is kind of risky.

Round 5: Aggro Loam
Could have, maybe even should have, lost this one. Cool deck, small mistakes by us both decided it. I blundered away game 1, game 2 I was a tad lucky, but Lily does dominate board states like a mad woman. Game 3 I ended up with an unflipped Delver and all my lands destroyed against a Scooze, Arbor and Grove. Oh my, am I in trouble here. Unless he has 2x KotR in hand and never finds a white source. Still in trouble though. Delver flips, which denies me land. Hmm. I attack for a bit, so does he. We both brick until I find a fetch for Bayou and cast Deathrite. He finds a Swamp and casts Bob. At some point I have him, but I forgot about the idea that he can counter the mana ability from DRS with Scooze. He also forgot. So I misplayed, and he misplayed as well. Which allowed my to win on one life. Lucky I guess. But don't worry, this will backfire.

I am on 4-1. Turns out my opponents are terrible and I am 9th. I cannot ID. Fuck. okay so I play.

Round 6: Shardless BUG
I lost. I tried fucking everything, but I just lost. Yes, he managed to stabilize on one life, but that's what control decks do, so I can't feel bad about that. I had my chances and when I needed a good draw I found a land or so. I happens, and in the long run Shardless just beats us. I must admint that I again I never got to use TNN. I wanted two specifically because I have issues beating this deck, but it just didn't happen for me.

So I went 4-2, losing 0-2 againt Shardless, but beating everything else. But hey, at least I got to fetch proper lands. The day before I played Modern, and fetching shock duals is just sad.

Recap:
Prop-loved my 61 card deck
Prop-Tomek playing on, only to raise my resistance score - he won everything and actually ended a spot above me in the final rankings
Prop-Belgians have excellent beer, which helps when you miss top-8 this way
Prop-Rudy for trading all my spare stuff for stuff that helps me complete three decks

Slop-two tourneys in a row is a tad taxing on my energy level
Slop-yeah, well, I'd like to have gone top-8, right? Duh... But fuck it. This sort of stuff just happens, right?
Slop-oh yeah, I forgot to mention: lost the toss 5 times. Fuck chance.

[Jaytron]

Thanks for the recap!

I wonder, is it possible to run the Hymn build with only 3 seas?

[insnebob1889]

How do you feel about thing in the ice? Better than goyf?

[Jaytron]

How do you feel about thing in the ice? Better than goyf?

No.

0/4 defender in a tempo deck? Granted if you dropped it t2 with a bunch of cantrips it would be great. However, drawing it t5 when you're in top deck mode, it's a horribly dead draw.

[anakyn]

The 20th land is kind of necessary when you play both BB spells like Hymn and Lily and UU spells like TNN. I really want to have at least 14 guys to make sure I have enough pressure to be able to beat controllish matchups.

Why don't you try 2x Tombstalker or a 1/1 split Stalker/Gurmag angler in place of the 2 Nemesis?
Granted Nemesis is better than Stalker in certain matchups (Miracles comes to mind), but Stalker is better in others (when you have to race your opponent), and running Stalker means you don't have any UU card in your 75, so you can probably play just 19 lands and feel safe. This way you also solve the "61 cards" problem.

IMHO, being able to play one less land in a Delver shell is pretty crucial: you flood less and your Delver flips more frequently.

[Ryu]

... and running Stalker means you don't have any UU card in your 75, so you can probably play just 19 lands and feel safe. This way you also solve the "61 cards" problem.

IMHO, being able to play one less land in a Delver shell is pretty crucial: you flood less and your Delver flips more frequently.

I didn't want to say something along these lines because I don't have as much experience as others around here but I am glad that I was on the right mind set about this.

[Asthereal]

Why don't you try 2x Tombstalker or a 1/1 split Stalker/Gurmag angler in place of the 2 Nemesis?
Granted Nemesis is better than Stalker in certain matchups (Miracles comes to mind), but Stalker is better in others (when you have to race your opponent), and running Stalker means you don't have any UU card in your 75, so you can probably play just 19 lands and feel safe. This way you also solve the "61 cards" problem.

IMHO, being able to play one less land in a Delver shell is pretty crucial: you flood less and your Delver flips more frequently.
I've played this deck for a whole year. Stalker used to be my weapon of choice, but it has its disadvantages.
Goyf and Deathrite already use the grave, so Rest in Peace already is a problem. I wanted a beater that doesn't get hit by it.
Additionally, I expected more Dismembers, because people were preparing for Eldrazi Stompy. Stalker dies to that card.
TNN is great. I only cast it once, but it won me the game there. Thanks to my opponent misplaying, but still. TNN got me there.

About the 19 vs. 20 lands:
1. I think I have more problems not drawing any lands than I have flooding out. Of course both happen sometimes, but having no lands makes you mulligan more, which puts you down in cards. If we reach the late game, we are likely flooding anyway.
2. Being low on lands makes us need to cantrip for lands. Which is bad if we need to play the tempo game, because it slows us down.
3. TNN needs UU and Hymn and Lily need BB. I deel I cannot consistent get to these, plus G for Goyf, on just 19 lands.

This is why I am on 20 lands. Or 19,6 compared to a 60 card list. :wink:

[anakyn]

TNN is great. I only cast it once, but it won me the game there. Thanks to my opponent misplaying, but still. TNN got me there.

Sure it is great and can win games by itself, and I too played it in the Stifle/Bob version where it is undoubtedly superior to Stalker, but maybe you should ask yourself why did you cast it only once.
It the Hymn version, I think Stalker is easier to cast. With Stalker/Gurmy in place of Nemesis, maybe you would have cast it more often and win some more games.

[Xerlic]

Thanks for the recap!

I wonder, is it possible to run the Hymn build with only 3 seas?
I've been running 3 Sea/2 Bayou/2 Trop in the Hymn build due to not owning a 4th Sea. It rarely comes up, but there are situations where I'll see a Tropical Island in my opener or off an early brainstorm and wish it was an Underground instead.

[Asthereal]

Sure it is great and can win games by itself, and I too played it in the Stifle/Bob version where it is undoubtedly superior to Stalker, but maybe you should ask yourself why did you cast it only once.
It the Hymn version, I think Stalker is easier to cast. With Stalker/Gurmy in place of Nemesis, maybe you would have cast it more often and win some more games.
I did ask myself that. Drew it twice, had to pitch it to Force once, cast it and won the other. :laugh:

[KobeBryan]

I've been running 3 Sea/2 Bayou/2 Trop in the Hymn build due to not owning a 4th Sea. It rarely comes up, but there are situations where I'll see a Tropical Island in my opener or off an early brainstorm and wish it was an Underground instead.

I would rather play a shock land than a trop.

That trop gets REALLY annoying.

[ironclad8690]

I like 1-2 True-Name Nemesis in the 75 because no one brings in -1/-1 effects vs BUG Delver.

[mtgSBJ]

So I have been really interested in the new Invasive Surgery and how it will affect our game. I am trying to reason out the different lines and uses for the card and the best way for me to do it is to write it out. I thought if I was going to write it out I might as well share it too.
Here is the new card for those of you who haven't seen it.

Invasive Surgery U

Counter target sorcery spell.

Delirium — If there are four or more card types amongst cards in your graveyard, search the graveyard, hand and library of that spell's owner for cards with the same name as that spell, exile those cards, then that player shuffles his or her library.


Right off the bat this card is a strictly better version of Envelop. It does the same thing for the same cost but has the added bonus of a conditional surgical extraction. This is important because this gives the card a lot more versatility.

I want to take a second and talk about how this card works. There is still some uncertainty because the release notes have yet to be posted so everything I am saying is based on the current rules. Okay? Okay, back to the card. So when you counter a sorcery with Invasive Surgery and the card resolves it checks your graveyard for 4 types of spells (Instant, Sorcery, Creature, Land, Planeswalker, Tribal, Enchantment, Artifact). The card that is being countered goes to the graveyard and then you get to search their hand graveyard and library for cards with the same name as that card. This means that you get to exile the card that is being countered as well as the rest that player is using. There is a corner case when it comes to uncounterable sorceries but I will talk about that a little latter on. Keep in mind that Delirium specifically mentions the 4 types need to be in our graveyard so attacking their graveyard with Deathrite Shaman is even more correct now (not that it ever wasn't).

I do want to take a moment and talk about the ways that can be used to counter the surgical extraction side of the card. It will generally take a few turns to turn on Delirium so we need to be aware of the different demands to get those 4 types into our graveyard. It should be fairly easy to get a land, a sorcery, and an instant into our graveyard but getting a 4th type is going to be difficult. There are going to be matchups where an Invasive Surgery will win us the game and we need to be prepared to use removal on our own creature to activate Delirium. In addition there are a lot of hate cards we need to be aware of such a Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging ooze, but any cards that affect our graveyard make Invasive Surgery much worse including our own delve cards.

Now that we have an understanding of how the card works I want to go over the matchups and the cards that we want to be playing Invasive Surgery against. I could easily have listed all of the relevant cards and talked about them but I think the matchup is a better choice because it lets us look at the them and think about how they can change based on our opponent's card selection. It also gives us a chance to revise it later if the meta changes dramatically.

Miracles:

This is the boogieman of the format right now and currently this is a deck you want to bring cheap counters for sorceries.
The 2 main cards you want to be bringing Invasive Surgery in for are Terminus and Entreat the Angels. Removing Terminus means we are going to be in great shape to play a more aggressive game but we should be aware that getting a 4th card type into our graveyard is going to be problematic. Our opponent really needs to counter a creature spell to help us along so playing cards like Clique that need to be answered with counter spells, rather than exiled or put on the bottom of our library, might be the way to go in this matchup.

It's also possible we will see Miracles play Supreme Verdict in response to Invasive Surgery becoming popular. As I mentioned above this is a great chance to talk about how uncounterable spells interact with Invasive Surgery. When you try and counter an uncounterable spell, in this case Supreme Verdict, the spell won't be countered, but you do still get the effect on the second half of the card(if you have active Delirium). The Invasive Surgery will resolve before the Supreme Verdict does so you get to search their library, hand and graveyard for all cards named Supreme Verdict, but Invasive Surgery doesn't search the stack so you are stuck with 1 resolving Supreme Verdict that will end up in their graveyard and some number of them exiled. Keep that in mind if they are playing Snapcaster Mage or Jace, VP.

Storm:

Again we are faced with a deck that has 2 card that are worth bringing Invasive Surgery in for. The two cards we want to counter are Past in Flames and Infernal Tutor. Past in Flames seems like a decent choice to counter because it makes them work twice as hard once it is exiled to win the game, but the best target is going to be Infernal Tutor. One of tools Storm uses to fight us is Cabal Therapy and when we have 2 hard counters in hand they need to deal with both before they can cast Infernal Tutor. Being able to counter an Infernal Tutor on the stack after an LED activation will usually be enough win the game, with Invasive Surgery that is doubly so because we can keep them off flashing it back with Past in Flames and make them need to draw an unreasonable amount of cards to win the game.

I know this matchup is already a good one, but if we are going to put Invasive Surgery into our board for other matchups why not bring it in for a matchup to give us a even better win percentage.
I do want to note before going to the next matchup that hitting our 4th spell type is going to be a problem in this matchup because they don't care about our creatures. It might be worth considering keeping some removal main deck for those times when you need to activate Delirium, but then again it does what we want it to do without Delirium so maybe it's not worth it.

Lands:

This is the matchup that made me want to write this. One of the big problems with American Delver is fighting through Life from the Loam and Invasive Surgery is the perfect answer for this matchup. If you don't get a quick start Lands will stall the board and take all the time they need to find a win condition and that win condition tends to use Life from the Loam or Gamble to find it. Both of these cards are prime targets and games that go long will give you a stocked graveyard to have active Delirium. One of the ways Lands has tried to fight hate for Loam is using Tranquil Thicket to draw a card and activate dredge in response to a Deathrite Shaman activation. Invasive Surgery doesn't allow them to interject between the spell being countered and the exile effect as they are on the same card and complete resolution must happen before they can cycle with Tranquil Thicket.

Shardless BUG:

Invasive Surgery can really excel in this matchup. With Invasive Surgery we can exile most relevant spells and stop them from cascading into another one later in the game. The best target is obviously Ancestral Vision and if they suspend it we have 4 turns to find an Invasive Surgery which really cripples their card advantage engine. In addition we can counter their Toxic Deluge which forces them to play a different game where they need to answer each threat rather than kill them all with 1 card. Hymn to Torach and Maelstrom pulse are also prime targets and getting rid of extra copies can be a really great option.

Something to note about this matchup is you can choose to exile any number of the card with the same name. So if there is a board state where you counter their Hymn but want their cascades to remain bad you just fail to find any other cards and keep their other hymn in their deck. It may be exceptionally rare for the situations to happen but when it does it is worth considering if you are worried about other cascade spells.

Reanimator:

In this matchup there are 2 cards worth considering, Exhume and Reanimate. Because counters are usually already brought in having extra counters is fine and there is only 1 reanimate spell we can't counter with Invasive Surgery so replacing it for Hymn to Torachs is a good option pot board.

Burn:

This matchup might be worth bringing Invasive Surgery in for. There is a we can hit Chain Lightning, Lava Spike and Rift Bolt and even if they have an Eidolon of the Great Revel we are still saving 1 damage for a card. They also tend to attack our life gain so them bolting our Deathrite Shaman means we can easily have an active Delirium and maybe get lucky and strip their hand.

Elves:

I don't have much experience with this matchup but in theory Invasive Surgery hits all of their combo enablers (Glimpse of Nature, Green Sun's Zenith and Natural Order). I know the deck is fast but we already have some great removal against them and having a replacement for Daze post board is worth considering. Keep in mind that a Deathrite Shaman can fight us on Delirium.

Delver:

I think overall we don't want to be running Invasive Surgery against delver decks. The only deck I would consider bringing it in against would be Grixis Delver because of Cabal Therapy. A Grixis opponent playing a Young Pyromancer, Gitaxian Probe followed by double therapy/therapy is a rough position to be in however being able to stop the first and flashback of therapy makes it a consideration.


Thoughts and Predictions:

I didn't talk about all of the decks but just the ones that I feel have the biggest impact. I actually think that this could be the card that pushes delver decks above the current boogiemen of the format. It does a lot of work against Miracles, and will likely warp their deck, and it makes a mediocre Lands matchup much more interactive and gives us a fighting chance.

I also believe that this card is going to be much more skill intensive then we initially think. It will require a lot of graveyard management and graveyard hate management. A Deathrite Shaman or Scavenging Ooze can really shutdown the bottom half of the card so to get the full effect you need to consider using your others spells in unexpected ways to activate Delirium if resolving a full Invasive Surgery will win you the game. Also it might be worth considering looking at other card types like tribal if a tribal spell is on the cusp of being playable just to get more bang for our buck, granted it is likely a huge stretch but we don't really know what we are going to see moving forward so it is worth noting.

I am currently running a Hymn version of American Delver and I think that activating Delirium will not be too hard in many matchups because of our abundance of sorceries. The stifle version should still run Invasive Surgery but the matchups where Delirium matters will be considerably worse.

That's everything for now. I have no doubt I missed something and any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[ironclad8690]

Good analysis, don't forget about Show and Tell!

[ironclad8690]

Just took JPA's BUG Delver list into a league and went 4-1.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sylvan Library


Eldrazi: 0-2
Enchantress: 2-1
Grixis Delver: 2-1
ANT: 2-0
Reanimator: 2-1

Eldrazi just drew the nuts, though I feel this is the best Delver deck vs them. Crushed combo decks because that's what BUG Delver does, felt really nice to actually be able to race Grixis Delver. Shardless, my usual deck, pretty much never gets that luxury XD.

[Jaytron]

Interesting "bug delver" list that actually dropped the delvers. The Balefuls seems like a great anti Eldrazi meta call

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/386466#paper

[janchu88]

So i played a very clone 75 to goddiks list at prague-eternal and it fest great. Managed to become 7th After swiss at the grand trial (45 players?) and lost in the finals of the trial to 4c delver. Bolts Additionally to decay to win the deathrite battle and loam lock just make this a very tough matchup. On the mainevent i was at 4-1, when i lost the possible top 8 finish to ANT, due to those one out of fifty games wehre your opponent kills you on a mulligan After getting wasted and hymned to the face... Well, this happens from time to time i guess :D

The other loss i had in the main Event was to burn, which is always a tough matchup playing BUG.... Anyone interested in a more detailed Report?

[meffeo]

Anyone interested in a more detailed Report?

Sure buddy, reports are always interesting and source of discussion.

[mosaic]

So i played a very clone 75 to goddiks list at prague-eternal and it fest great. Managed to become 7th After swiss at the grand trial (45 players?) and lost in the finals of the trial to 4c delver. Bolts Additionally to decay to win the deathrite battle and loam lock just make this a very tough matchup. On the mainevent i was at 4-1, when i lost the possible top 8 finish to ANT, due to those one out of fifty games wehre your opponent kills you on a mulligan After getting wasted and hymned to the face... Well, this happens from time to time i guess :D

The other loss i had in the main Event was to burn, which is always a tough matchup playing BUG.... Anyone interested in a more detailed Report?

Sure, I would like to know. I have been there too, my story is similar to yours, one of my loss is also on camera, there you can see, what means to be "unlucky", but it was great anyway. I might add small review later.

[Jaytron]

Anyone interested in a more detailed Report?

Yep! Along with a decklist/sideboard strats. :)

[MorphBerlin]

Interesting "bug delver" list that actually dropped the delvers. The Balefuls seems like a great anti Eldrazi meta call

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/386466#paper

This deck just looks bad to me. If you don"t like the Delvers play Shardless. It has a good MU vs Eldrazi as well and is better rounded against other decks.

[Whitefaces]

I'd be interested in a report, decklist and SB strats too. Always interesting!


This deck just looks bad to me. If you don"t like the Delvers play Shardless. It has a good MU vs Eldrazi as well and is better rounded against other decks.

Agreed. There are considerably less T1 plays making Daze so much worse in the deck.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

It has been awhile since my last post. I have been judging more frequently now than playing (with the exception of Legacy locals). I played a fairly standard BUG Delver list with Hymn to Tourach this past week, ending 3-1. The exact list is as follows:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideoard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Dark Confidant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


A quick recap: Round 1: Dredge (2-1), Round 2: BURG Delver (0-2), Round 3: Blood Moon Stompy (2-1), and Round 4: Reanimator (2-0). The Dredge player kept loose hands in games 1 and 3. I was able to get Deathrites active and control his graveyard. BURG Delver feels like it should be a fine match up but I mulliganed here to 6 and 5 due to no land hands in game 1 and 2. Blood Moon Stompy seems like it might be a scary deck, but if we can get a Deathrite or a Delver early, their lack of interaction often means a win. In game two I made a turn one delver, he made a turn one Chalice of the Void on 1. I flipped the Delver and killed him with it and a Goyf. The turn 1 Blood Moon effects seem to be the real danger. Reanimator seems fine. Deathrite and counter magic do great work.

I guess, currently I feel as though Hymn might be poorly positioned in my metagame. With two 2-4 graveyard decks, precision discard is more appealing. I may slant to another Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce for a week or two as well as feeling out a flex slot. Also 2 graveyard hate slots feels like the minimum that I would run if I want to consistently beat dredge and reanimator... may trim a SB card for a Nihil Spellbomb. I also just feel like the bouncing back and forth between Stifle and Hymn tends to leave me wanting a better configuration. I will Ponder this and get back to you all. Also I cast 0 Gurmags... I may change those to TNNs for less GY dependence. Anyways thanks for reading. Any comments are welcome/appreciated.

[Degavolver]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideoard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Dread of Night
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Dark Confidant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor




I like your deck, but here are some personal opinions. With only 18 lands and only 4 removal spells (abrupt decay) i feel like Liliana is less good. For similar mana issues, i feel like Jace the mind sculptor in your sb is also bad.

I have no problem delving for my tombstalker, which I run 1 of, +1 tnn also.

I'm curious, have the maindeck spell pierces been good to you? They seem to clash with the hymns for the same reason stifle does (hymn is a tapout strategy). I'm also curious how other people feel about hymn in the meta? I switched my 3x stifle to 3x hymn cuz I wasn't sure if I'd be seeing much fetchlands in the meta. Please also see my list below and give opinions on it, anyone! Thinkng of changing the 1x maindeck dismember to a second maelstrom pulse

Main deck

14 creatures
4x delver of secrets
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
1x true-name nemesis
1x tombstalker

27 spells
2x sylvan library
1x jitte
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
3x daze
3x force of will
3x hymn to tourach
3x abrupt decay
1x dismember
1x toxic deluge
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed

19 lands
4x wastleland
4x underground sea
2x bayou
1x tropical island
1x swamp
4x flooded strand
3x verdant catacombs


Sideboard

2x Surgical extraction
2x Dismember
2x Life from the loam
2x Chill
1x Pernicious deed
1x golgari charm
3x Pithing needle
1x negate
1x force of will

[mosaic]

@Sturtzilla
well, from my personal experience, BURG Delver is not a fine match, they are better tempo deck and they tend to be much faster then TA. After-board they also have access to red hate - Pyro/Red blast among other things. It is quite hard match.

@Degavolver
when I tried stalker and nemesis in one deck which seemed to be perfect (at least on paper), I failed. Prove me wrong please, I am not a perfect player, but they both play very different game (role), at least for me.
Both options have its merits and neither was worse or better, however mixing them together felt schizophrenic and just less efficient (one get stalker when TNN is what is necessary and vice versa). Your mileage may vary. I would be more then happy to use both options in one deck.

[Degavolver]

So after some advice from the mtg communities, and looking over a few stock lists, i put the following together.

Main deck

15 creatures
4x delver of secrets
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
2x dark confidant
1x true-name nemesis

27 spells
2x Gitaxien Probe
4x brainstorm
3x ponder
4x daze
4x force of will
4x stifle
3x abrupt decay
1x dismember
2x spell pierce

18 lands
4x wastleland
3x underground sea
3x tropical island
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs


Sideboard

2x Surgical extraction
2x Dismember
1x toxic deluge
1x Chill
1x hydroblast
1x maelstrom pulse
1x golgari charm
2x Pithing needle
1x grafdiggers cage
1x abrupt decay
1x thoughtsieze
1x sylvan library


I'd like to fit in a 3rd dark confidant maybe... But not sure what I would cut (it would likely be either a stifle/force of will/daze)

Please note that I'm playing the gitaxien probes so that I can know whether it's safe to tap out on my turn, or leave up mana for a stifle or spell pierce.

Ultimately in sideboard i want to -1pithing needle, +1 null rod, but i dont have the card at the moment.

Any thoughts on this new list?

[and3h]

Personally I feel like this deck is more of a version of RUG delver that uses black instead of red, rather than a team America deck. In general the core of stifle, spell pierce, probes etc. align it much more, in my eyes, to RUG rather than the heavier, clunkier discard and removal package in team.

Saying that, I certainly don't think you've got yourself a bad deck at all and if I look at the list from the perspective of RUG then all I would really change is maybe 1 less creature and 1 more spell to consistently flip delver more often.

Please take these comments with a pinch of salt though, I'm a relative new comer to legacy as I've only been seriously playing competitively for about 6-7 months so I could (and probably am) be looking at this all wrong.

[and3h]

I've got a small tournament in a couple of weeks (it seems I don't live in this wonderful fantasy world where I get legacy fnm or wnm etc.) I have a local tournament that's about 2 hours away (which may not be far for some of you guys, but for the UK that's like in France).

Here's my current list

Creatures
4 delver of secrets
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
1 tombstalker

Spells
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 daze
2 liliana of the veil
4 abrupt decay
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize

Lands
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island

I'm still working on the sideboard, but it's going to have the usual suspects like 2 golgari charm, toxic deluge, disfigure, pithing needle, grafdigger's cage, and maybe a little bit of spice like life from the loam and winter orb.

I'm a little apprehensive about having only 13 creatures. Maybe I should cut a land for something? Any suggestions are welcome

[Asthereal]

So after some advice from the mtg communities, and looking over a few stock lists, i put the following together.

Main deck

15 creatures
4x delver of secrets
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
2x dark confidant
1x true-name nemesis

27 spells
2x Gitaxien Probe
4x brainstorm
3x ponder
4x daze
4x force of will
4x stifle
3x abrupt decay
1x dismember
2x spell pierce

18 lands
4x wastleland
3x underground sea
3x tropical island
4x polluted delta
4x verdant catacombs


Sideboard

2x Surgical extraction
2x Dismember
1x toxic deluge
1x Chill
1x hydroblast
1x maelstrom pulse
1x golgari charm
2x Pithing needle
1x grafdiggers cage
1x abrupt decay
1x thoughtsieze
1x sylvan library


I'd like to fit in a 3rd dark confidant maybe... But not sure what I would cut (it would likely be either a stifle/force of will/daze)

Please note that I'm playing the gitaxien probes so that I can know whether it's safe to tap out on my turn, or leave up mana for a stifle or spell pierce.

Ultimately in sideboard i want to -1pithing needle, +1 null rod, but i dont have the card at the moment.

Any thoughts on this new list?
I disagree with and3h. The list looks very solid for a Stifle list.
Stifles are great against Shardless and Miracles. Not so much against Eldrazi though.
So it all depends on what you expect to face.

For the creatures: 15 guys is a lot already. I wouldn't play more. The TNN could be a Confidant, if you like.
Furthermore, I'd recommend playing the full set of Decays. They are too good to pass up on.
You probably do want a Dismember main deck though, since it kills the Eldrazi nicely.

Maybe there simply isn't space for the Probes. :rolleyes:

[Jaytron]

I disagree with and3h. The list looks very solid for a Stifle list.
Stifles are great against Shardless and Miracles. Not so much against Eldrazi though.
So it all depends on what you expect to face.

For the creatures: 15 guys is a lot already. I wouldn't play more. The TNN could be a Confidant, if you like.
Furthermore, I'd recommend playing the full set of Decays. They are too good to pass up on.
You probably do want a Dismember main deck though, since it kills the Eldrazi nicely.

Maybe there simply isn't space for the Probes. :rolleyes:

Information is nice, but IMO probes lose value if you aren't playing Young P or Cabals somewhere in the 75

[Ryu]

I have to agree with these guys on the stifle list. I would go for -2 Probe then +1 Abrupt Decay and +1 Ponder or Dismember. I am not sure how I feel with 3x Bob.

[sampi]

I'm running a very similar list without the probes and and running a snapcaster in the tnn spot. When I acquire a tnn I will chuck it in. V clique would also be fine in that slot.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[surface33]

guys what would be the best substitute for the 7 dual in he 20 land version? I dont want to go with 10 fetches and currently have 3 under 1 tropical and 2 bayou. thanks

[Karhumies]

guys what would be the best substitute for the 7 dual in he 20 land version? I dont want to go with 10 fetches and currently have 3 under 1 tropical and 2 bayou. thanks

For ally colors, "fastlands" are a decent option. Darkslick Shores has the downside of not working with Daze or Submerge but it provides colored mana without life loss.

UG ang BG are difficult to fill, because currently there are no opposite colors "fastlands". " Shock lands" meaning Overgrown Tomb and Breeding Pool are the closest, but fetching for them, and in the case of UG, Dazing them and replaying them really, really hurts.

[surface33]

For ally colors, "fastlands" are a decent option. Darkslick Shores has the downside of not working with Daze or Submerge but it provides colored mana without life loss.

UG ang BG are difficult to fill, because currently there are no opposite colors "fastlands". " Shock lands" meaning Overgrown Tomb and Breeding Pool are the closest, but fetching for them, and in the case of UG, Dazing them and replaying them really, really hurts.

the darklisk shores is a good option, I was thinking on playing a swamp, with 2 lilis 4 hymn and tombstalker main it was another option. What about the 10th fetchland? thanks for the input

[Asthereal]

the darklisk shores is a good option, I was thinking on playing a swamp, with 2 lilis 4 hymn and tombstalker main it was another option. What about the 10th fetchland? thanks for the input
10th fetch should probably be the best option.
You very rarely need the 4th Sea, and Shores don't support Daze.

[surface33]

10th fetch should probably be the best option.
You very rarely need the 4th Sea, and Shores don't support Daze.

ok, thanks a lot for the advice

[Asthereal]

ok, thanks a lot for the advice
No probs. Wasn't a hard one. :wink:

I actually played 3x Sea 10x fetch at some point, in order to support 3x Tombstalker. I got tired of losing to Jund, and Stalkers help a lot there. The Stalkers were stupid against Jace though, so I dropped the idea after getting humiliated by Miracles a few times. It's a trade-off. It will always be.

TNN is a nice middle ground option, but it costs UU, 3 power for 3 mana isn't spectacular and it dies to -1/-1 effects. It's the most solid reliable beater we have though.

[Karhumies]

No probs. Wasn't a hard one. :wink:

I actually played 3x Sea 10x fetch at some point, in order to support 3x Tombstalker. I got tired of losing to Jund, and Stalkers help a lot there. The Stalkers were stupid against Jace though, so I dropped the idea after getting humiliated by Miracles a few times. It's a trade-off. It will always be.

TNN is a nice middle ground option, but it costs UU, 3 power for 3 mana isn't spectacular and it dies to -1/-1 effects. It's the most solid reliable beater we have though.

TNN against D&T (3x RiP from their SB hits pretty much all the other creatures we have), Clique against Miracles, Tombstalker against midrange decks, Confidant against most combo decks to dig. If you know what to expect in your metagame, that will help you plan.

[Ryu]

Took second yesterday at my locals. Only 9 people showed up so we played 3 rounds. I went 1-0-2, winning to StifleNaut 2-0 and drawing to Mentor Miracles and Grixis delver. I could have won against the delver if I didn't play safe at the end of game 3. I went the safe route of playing Liliana instead of just going for the kill with my DRS. I was running this list:

4x Goyf
4x DRS
4x Delver
2x TNN

4x BS
4x Ponder
4x AD
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Hymm
1x Dismember
2x LotV

4x Wasteland
4x USea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty
2x Bayou
1x TIsland

Side:
2x Spell Pierce
2x Disfigure
2x Surgical extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Vendillion Clique
1x Flusterstorm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Sylvan Library
1x Engineered Explosive

I was chatting it up with some of the players afterwards and some players recommend playing a Jitte, another flusterstorm and Nihil Spellbomb in the board. I also wanted your guys opinion on some main deck changes as well. I was thinking something along the lines of -1 TNN -2 Hymn -1 LotV for +2 Bob and +2 Thoughtsieze.
Another thing that I noticed is that we haven't been putting up tournament results. This makes me concerned with our position of being a Deck to Beat. If someone has more input on this please let me know.

[Asthereal]

TNN against D&T (3x RiP from their SB hits pretty much all the other creatures we have), Clique against Miracles, Tombstalker against midrange decks, Confidant against most combo decks to dig. If you know what to expect in your metagame, that will help you plan.
Actually, Clique is best against combo and Confidant is best against Miracles. First one is my own experience, second is what I hear from strong Miracles pilots.

I went for TNN because it's the most reliable option. It has the least drawbacks, it's blue for Force, it dies to not so many removal spells and it's unblockable.

[Homason]

If you play Ta right now, i would highly recommend to play Goddicks List with small adjustments to your local meta.

When your local store is full of Shardless Bug/ Delver Decks / DNT -> Play exaclty his 75
When your local store is full of Miracles -> Play Painful Truth in your 75 (I cut a Tombstalker, play Winter Orb for 1 Sower in the Sb)
When your local store is full of Lands -> Don`t Play Bug :-) (I know he bet them twice in Madrid but the MU is very unfavorable)

Goddick described his reasons to play Clique and I think he is right about about it.
In my opinion Clique is strictly better then tnn. Flash and its disruptive elements are great against many Decks, while tnn is "just" unblockable/untargetable.

I agree that Bob is best against Miracles .... if he sticks (what he rarly does). Clique has an impact just on resolution (and can`t be blocked by Snappy). I won many Game 1 against Miracles because they didn`t expect Clique in the first game.

Don`t try to make an awesome List better. Somebody took much time to improve it -> Just make 50-100 games to get a first feeling for the Deck (than ask for cardchoices :-) ).

I`d like to thank Goddick for his awesome Killing Machine !!

[zerzab11]

Hi guys,

normally I'm a miracles player, but I felt that the deck isn't very good positioned in the current metagame. That's why I took an old Team America list I had decent success with during the Treasure Cruise Ära, changed some slots for the current metagame and took it to some tournaments. I'm not posting much on the source, but I'm a to the heart legacy player, who knows and likes the format a lot.

I think this list is very well positioned and even better than traditional lists right now, as it plays 8+2 cantrips and 2 gamebreaking cards for midrange and control MU's maindeck. This gives the deck an edge in attrition based MU's as you can play and cantrip to your "bombs" all while disrupting/ beating the opponent. When you resolve one of the bombs it drags the game into your favor a lot. The SB helps this plan even further, as it lets you get more "controllish" relying on your 2 Jaces in MU's where you board Dazes out. As this approach is currently not expected it really helped me for getting stellar results in the past weeks.

I just played the deck in 2 events (but played it a lot with good success 1 year ago), but firmly believe this configuration is very strong.
I went 6 : 1 : 1 @ Turin Magic Tournament becoming the unfortunate 9th place on tiebrakers, and so missing any great prices.
Right now I just returned from a local finishing 5:0 (10:0).

Without further ado, this is what I'm playing atm:

//Mainboard:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf


4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Abrupt Decay

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths

4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard :

2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Submerge
1 Envelop
1 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Life from the Loam

Let me know what you think!

[Jaytron]

Two JTMS in the list seems pretty spice, I feel that it's fairly expensive for a delver strategy, but I'm ok being proven wrong. I don't play bug enough to really weigh in on it though.

I'd probably rather have a 2nd Painful Truths instead of a 1 of Preordain.

Also I think 2 Bayou and 1 Trop might be better than the current setup because we want to hit BB quickly.

[Madsk]

If you play Ta right now, i would highly recommend to play Goddicks List with small adjustments to your local meta.

I`d like to thank Goddick for his awesome Killing Machine !!


This, main feels nuts. Tombestalker is busted. I might play it wrong since i havnt liked the Jaces, so i switch thouse for Winter Orb i think.

[Jaytron]

If you play Ta right now, i would highly recommend to play Goddicks List with small adjustments to your local meta.

When your local store is full of Shardless Bug/ Delver Decks / DNT -> Play exaclty his 75
When your local store is full of Miracles -> Play Painful Truth in your 75 (I cut a Tombstalker, play Winter Orb for 1 Sower in the Sb)
When your local store is full of Lands -> Don`t Play Bug :-) (I know he bet them twice in Madrid but the MU is very unfavorable)

Goddick described his reasons to play Clique and I think he is right about about it.
In my opinion Clique is strictly better then tnn. Flash and its disruptive elements are great against many Decks, while tnn is "just" unblockable/untargetable.

I agree that Bob is best against Miracles .... if he sticks (what he rarly does). Clique has an impact just on resolution (and can`t be blocked by Snappy). I won many Game 1 against Miracles because they didn`t expect Clique in the first game.

Don`t try to make an awesome List better. Somebody took much time to improve it -> Just make 50-100 games to get a first feeling for the Deck (than ask for cardchoices :-) ).

I`d like to thank Goddick for his awesome Killing Machine !!
Is there a link to his list somewhere?

Nvm, I think i found it: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=11722&d=266837&f=LE

Is this the list you're referring to?

[and3h]

That's the list Jayton. 2nd place at BOM Madrid.

[Jaytron]

That's the list Jayton. 2nd place at BOM Madrid.

Local meta has been shifting towards Eldrazi, and Shardless as of late. Some of the combo players are breaking out their decks in response to this (Elves, Etc). I assume I should just play the stock 75?

[Homason]

Local meta has been shifting towards Eldrazi, and Shardless as of late. Some of the combo players are breaking out their decks in response to this (Elves, Etc). I assume I should just play the stock 75?

Elves is very easy beaten in the boarded games, while it is kind a hard to win game one.
For Sake BUG Delver is great facing up ANY combo Deck :cool: .

Eldrazi has a hard Time beating Midrange Decks, so the approach with big creatures (Stalker) seems right so me.

[Jaytron]

Elves is very easy beaten in the boarded games, while it is kind a hard to win game one.
For Sake BUG Delver is great facing up ANY combo Deck :cool: .

Eldrazi has a hard Time beating Midrange Decks, so the approach with big creatures (Stalker) seems right so me.

Are we at all worried about how dependent all our threats are vs GY hate?

Nihil Spellbomb, RiP, Relic can all screw us pretty badly.

[Goddik]

Are we at all worried about how dependent all our threats are vs GY hate?

Nihil Spellbomb, RiP, Relic can all screw us pretty badly.

Nihil spellbomb is only a minor annoyance

Generally, the decks that play Rip or relic are white, and are best stopped by boarding in Jace TMS, which absolutely wrecks them. If you suspect that they have more than 1-2 hate pieces, you can consider boarding out some tarmogoyfs

[Jaytron]

Nihil spellbomb is only a minor annoyance

Generally, the decks that play Rip or relic are white, and are best stopped by boarding in Jace TMS, which absolutely wrecks them. If you suspect that they have more than 1-2 hate pieces, you can consider boarding out some tarmogoyfs

Thanks for the explanation!

It feels like the list is super grindy and is super close to being a Shardless deck. That being said, I assume the reason we still choose to stay w/ Delver is you can still get a 'Delver draw' and pull ahead in tempo early. But the deck can still grind games out well.

What do you guys feel like the pros/cons to BUG over Grixis delver is? Which in your opinion is better in a meta in which Eldrazi and Shardless are on the rise, with Miracles on a slight decline?

[Goddik]

Thanks for the explanation!

It feels like the list is super grindy and is super close to being a Shardless deck. That being said, I assume the reason we still choose to stay w/ Delver is you can still get a 'Delver draw' and pull ahead in tempo early. But the deck can still grind games out well.

What do you guys feel like the pros/cons to BUG over Grixis delver is? Which in your opinion is better in a meta in which Eldrazi and Shardless are on the rise, with Miracles on a slight decline?

I havent played alot with the grixis list. I have heard that it has a better shardless matchup, which is roughly 50/50, but very swingy/random for us. Miracles is also slightly bad for them (50/50ish for us) and eldrazi i would assume to be 50/50 ish to bad for them (Very favourable for us).

Our creatures are better and hymn is a better disruption spell then anything the grixis deck has access to. My fundamental assumption is that we are better deck then they, but i would have to play the grixis deck more to fully assess it. Given that i keep winning with Team America, i havent really had the greatest of incentives to try.

One other exciting avenue to persue is playing painfull truths in 4 c delver lists, which gets very sexy very fast and definately impacts shardless and miracles matchups

[Jaytron]

I havent played alot with the grixis list. I have heard that it has a better shardless matchup, which is roughly 50/50, but very swingy/random for us. Miracles is also slightly bad for them (50/50ish for us) and eldrazi i would assume to be 50/50 ish to bad for them (Very favourable for us).

Our creatures are better and hymn is a better disruption spell then anything the grixis deck has access to. My fundamental assumption is that we are better deck then they, but i would have to play the grixis deck more to fully assess it. Given that i keep winning with Team America, i havent really had the greatest of incentives to try.

One other exciting avenue to persue is playing painfull truths in 4 c delver lists, which gets very sexy very fast and definately impacts shardless and miracles matchups

Yeah, I've been playing Panful Truths in my Grixis SB. Been pretty great so far.

I may try Team America when I get a chance to see how it is on this side :)

[Jaytron]

Been testing Goddick's stock list, switching over from Grixis.

It feels like it has much better game against Miracles (Decay is a house). Blind flipping Delvers feels a little worse but probably not that noticeable in the end.

What is ths SB strategy against decks like Reanimator and Sneak and show?

I'd assume it's something like this:

Reanimator
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Hymn
+2 Sower
+2 Spell Pierce

Maybe bring in Library or Jace? I'm unsure on the Hymns being correct or not, on one hand you can strip them of spells they need, on the other you can put their fatties in the GY for them. I like some number of decays in case they needle our DRS. Unsure on Submerge. Some lists run a bayou for their own Decay. I feel like Daze is always pretty relevant. Maybe make some room for Null Rod to blank their petals? Seems kinda meh.

Sneak:
-4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pierce
+2 ?? Maybe Library/Jace?

Sower seems fairly weak against Sneak and show, not sure what else you'd what to bring in, but Decays seem fairly useless in the matchup.

Side question: What are your reasons for dropping Hymn vs Delver decks? Too slow? I'd assume the plan vs RUG delver is similar to the Grixis board plan, except you bring in Submerges instead of GG Charms? Maybe a single Toxic comes in to hit their smaller stuff?

[Asthereal]

Been testing Goddick's stock list, switching over from Grixis.

It feels like it has much better game against Miracles (Decay is a house). Blind flipping Delvers feels a little worse but probably not that noticeable in the end.

What is ths SB strategy against decks like Reanimator and Sneak and show?

I'd assume it's something like this:

Reanimator
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Hymn
+2 Sower
+2 Spell Pierce

Maybe bring in Library or Jace? I'm unsure on the Hymns being correct or not, on one hand you can strip them of spells they need, on the other you can put their fatties in the GY for them. I like some number of decays in case they needle our DRS. Unsure on Submerge. Some lists run a bayou for their own Decay. I feel like Daze is always pretty relevant. Maybe make some room for Null Rod to blank their petals? Seems kinda meh.

Sneak:
-4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Pierce
+2 ?? Maybe Library/Jace?

Sower seems fairly weak against Sneak and show, not sure what else you'd what to bring in, but Decays seem fairly useless in the matchup.

Side question: What are your reasons for dropping Hymn vs Delver decks? Too slow? I'd assume the plan vs RUG delver is similar to the Grixis board plan, except you bring in Submerges instead of GG Charms? Maybe a single Toxic comes in to hit their smaller stuff?
Against Sneak&Show, the Decays have zero targets. You swap all of those for anything useful you may have in the board. I usually even board a number of Golgari Charm in against them, which can destroy Sneak Attack or Leyline of Sanctity. You keep all the discard and counters. You can board out 1-2 creatures if you need more space.

Against Delver decks, casting Hymn can be hard, since they attack our mana base and sometimes manage to keep us off BB. Additionally, Hymn doesn't influence the board state. On the draw, Hymn isn't very good against other Delver decks. So against other Delver decks, on the draw I tend to go -4 Daze, -X Hymn, + anything useful. On the play, I only drop the FoWs, staying closer to my original game plan.

But that's just what I tend to do. Others will have different approaches.

[Jaytron]

Another question, how concerned are we about trying to blind flip our Delver?

The blind flip % goes down to about 38% with Goddick's list, which seems kind of meh.

Grixis lists are about 47% blind flip

Canadian Threshold of course has the highest chance to blind flip, at 50%

Maybe it doesn't matter, because Team America's gameplan isn't really to rush you down like Canadian Threshold. It'll grind you down more, slowly. Which brings me to another question, what are the advantages of playing Team America, over the current value grind king, Shardless BUG?

[Homason]

Another question, how concerned are we about trying to blind flip our Delver?

The blind flip % goes down to about 38% with Goddick's list, which seems kind of meh.

Grixis lists are about 47% blind flip

Canadian Threshold of course has the highest chance to blind flip, at 50%

Maybe it doesn't matter, because Team America's gameplan isn't really to rush you down like Canadian Threshold. It'll grind you down more, slowly. Which brings me to another question, what are the advantages of playing Team America, over the current value grind king, Shardless BUG?

I think the greatest advantage are :
1) TA is able to switch gears and become an average Control-Deck in certain Matchups, while it is an aggressiv Deck g1.
2) TA has a very good Combo Matchups, which is THE weakness of Shardless Bug. One reason for that is Delver of Secrets.
3) The last Point might be an inferior one. Being able to play < ccm3 Spells that are situational (Spell Pierce, Daze, Playing 3-4 copys of Ponder), is great

The main-difference between all this Delver-Decks is that the Delver doesn`t need to flip in TA in the early state of the game. Yeah, it is very nice if he flips but it isnt neccessary. TA is equipt for a longer game, while Grixis and RUG want a "short" game.

I often found myself winning with a late Delver. Remember we have 8 Flyer!!! Airfoce inc. :smile:

[dvscape]

Hi guys,

First of all, let me thank you for the insight shared in this thread. All this information makes it much easier to pick up BUG as a new deck and start piloting it properly.

I was wondering why we aren't running 1-2 Gurmag Angler, like the Grixis lists are doing. I agree that we are relatively low on cantrips compared to them, since we are usually lacking Probe, but isn't the 1 mana cost significantly better than the 2 black required for Tombstalker?

TY

[anakyn]

[...] isn't the 1 mana cost significantly better than the 2 black required for Tombstalker?

I love both Gurmag and Stalker, but I guess Gurmy is better for heavy tempo strategies (it lands earlier), while Tomby is better for grindy strategies (it can fly over blockers and close out games): so I prefer using Gurmag in Grixis Delver and Stalker in BUG Delver.

[Asthereal]

Hi guys,

First of all, let me thank you for the insight shared in this thread. All this information makes it much easier to pick up BUG as a new deck and start piloting it properly.

I was wondering why we aren't running 1-2 Gurmag Angler, like the Grixis lists are doing. I agree that we are relatively low on cantrips compared to them, since we are usually lacking Probe, but isn't the 1 mana cost significantly better than the 2 black required for Tombstalker?

TY
The biggest question for your flex slot creatures is: "what matchup do you want to improve?" Tombstalker improves Jund and Elves, which are (very) loseable matchups. Angler is better against decks that attack your mana base, and decks that require us to leave mana open during their turn, like combo.

For me personally: I decided to run neither, since Rest in Peace already hurts us pretty badly. Right now I consider Dark Confidant (for Miracles), Clique (combo) and True-Name Nemesis (reliable beater). I chose the latter for the last two tourneys, but didn't get to use him very often.

[Jaytron]

The biggest question for your flex slot creatures is: "what matchup do you want to improve?" Tombstalker improves Jund and Elves, which are (very) loseable matchups. Angler is better against decks that attack your mana base, and decks that require us to leave mana open during their turn, like combo.

For me personally: I decided to run neither, since Rest in Peace already hurts us pretty badly. Right now I consider Dark Confidant (for Miracles), Clique (combo) and True-Name Nemesis (reliable beater). I chose the latter for the last two tourneys, but didn't get to use him very often.

What does your list/sb look like? I kinda want to try Bobs

[Asthereal]

What does your list/sb look like? I kinda want to try Bobs
Bad news: as I mentioned, I didn't run Bob yet.
My list right now is as follows (but not yet optimized):

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis /14

Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach.
1 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil /27

Lands:
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland /20 -total: 61

Sideboard:
3 Stifle (trying not to lose against Shardless and Miracles)
3 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
3 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor /15

Yup that's 61 cards. I really want my 20th land, I really want my 14th guy, I didn't want to drop my 13th turn one play and I wanted two slots main deck that help with the Eldrazi popularity thingy (Dismember and Lily). This added up to the above.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm playing Team America at the 1:00 side event at GP Albuquerque. I'll post my list after.

[meffeo]

I'm playing Team America at the 1:00 side event at GP Albuquerque. I'll post my list after.

Good luck, mate.

Anyone tried Invasive Surgery of SOI? I'm used to have an Envelop effect in my board and it looks like an upgraded version, even if delirium could be complicated to reach when playing against deck where the Surgery should shine (Ant comes first to my mind).

[Asthereal]

I'm playing Team America at the 1:00 side event at GP Albuquerque. I'll post my list after.
Go get 'em!

I failed during my last tourney, playing the list above. :cool:

[Mat]

Hello guys, went 4-0 with this list (by Jim Davis) in my local game store. My matchs were: RUG Delver, Pox, ANT, Reanimator. Got tired of playing Bayou in a deck with daze, and moved to the Stifle version. I'm really enjoying it, playing the same list as Jim Davis just to know what the deck is about, then I will look forward to make my own version. If anyone want to know about my tests, or the matchups, feel free to ask.

Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
Lands (18)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Baleful Strix
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

[DaDitka]

Goddik, congrats on your Ovino top 8!

I noticed you cut Lilianas from the mainboard and was wondering what your reasoning was?

I had tried your build again last week, and it went well, the threat base felt great. Lilly went from being excellent to not so good, depending on matchup, I thought about shaving one to sb, but didn't think about cutting her completely.

Also, the Ovino site doesn't seem to have SBS up? Woukd you be willing to share your SB please?

[DaDitka]

Never mind!

I guess the SB didn't show up on my phone screen.

I am still curious how you felt about not having Lilliana?

Also, how was invasive surgery and winter orb for you?

[Goddik]

Hi guys

Grazi Grazi

The changes came about as a theorycrafted attempt to beat lands, while still providing a strong anti miracles package. I went 3-0 against lands on the weekend, so i guess it was moderately sucessfull. I did loose my one match against miracles though :-(

Surgery + orb can handle their loam engine, while submerge + needle can shut down their combo. This worked decently well in the games i played. I vividly remember a game i played early orb against lands, and he literally timewalked himself whenever he tried to do something (including using maze). Another game he didnt have punishing fires, i played 2 delvers and countered his loam 4 times while they killed him. In another game i managed to sneak a win with submerger + extirpating his loam

Sylvan is btw also excellent against lands, as it helps you find the pieces, and i 2 times took 8-12 damage of of it to dig

The switch to 4 ponders was an attempt to make sure i could hit delirium on surgery, and is a change i am not a fan of. The deck can definately get ponder flooded, and i think the fact that i had 3-4 ponders in one miracles match, rather then 2 ponders and a bomb was certainly a factor. Going forward i will likely play painful truths in one of these slots as an alternative that i can chuck in my gravyard fast, but still provides a bomb against miracles.

Liliana was always the most mediocre card in the deck, and mostly there to provide a different angle against miracles. I now think i should have been playing 2x library all along. That card is simply excellent, and does the same thing much better. as per above these slots will now be 1x painful truths (experimental) and 1x library

Spike and I also talked at the event about the option to run some hate for grixis delver/eldrazi, but we dont really think we have room (miracles, lands and creature matchups are the priorities) and the submerges ave proven their worth time and time again. If we find room these would most likely be gurmag anglers, but could also be strix/dismember/4th tarmogoyf

[btm10]

Hi guys

Grazi Grazi

The changes came about as a theorycrafted attempt to beat lands, while still providing a strong anti miracles package. I went 3-0 against lands on the weekend, so i guess it was moderately sucessfull. I did loose my one match against miracles though :-(

Surgery + orb can handle their loam engine, while submerge + needle can shut down their combo. This worked decently well in the games i played. I vividly remember a game i played early orb against lands, and he literally timewalked himself whenever he tried to do something (including using maze). Another game he didnt have punishing fires, i played 2 delvers and countered his loam 4 times while they killed him. In another game i managed to sneak a win with submerger + extirpating his loam

Sylvan is btw also excellent against lands, as it helps you find the pieces, and i 2 times took 8-12 damage of of it to dig

The switch to 4 ponders was an attempt to make sure i could hit delirium on surgery, and is a change i am not a fan of. The deck can definately get ponder flooded, and i think the fact that i had 3-4 ponders in one miracles match, rather then 2 ponders and a bomb was certainly a factor. Going forward i will likely play painful truths in one of these slots as an alternative that i can chuck in my gravyard fast, but still provides a bomb against miracles.

Liliana was always the most mediocre card in the deck, and mostly there to provide a different angle against miracles. I now think i should have been playing 2x library all along. That card is simply excellent, and does the same thing much better. as per above these slots will now be 1x painful truths (experimental) and 1x library

Spike and I also talked at the event about the option to run some hate for grixis delver/eldrazi, but we dont really think we have room (miracles, lands and creature matchups are the priorities) and the submerges ave proven their worth time and time again. If we find room these would most likely be gurmag anglers, but could also be strix/dismember/4th tarmogoyf

I've been bouncing between Shardless, TA, 4c Loam, and 4c Delver for my GP and Eternal Extravaganza testing lately, but I seem to be narrowing the field to Shardless or TA for the events (there's still a small chance for Loam).

My TA list is your starting 60 from the BoM, -2 Liliana, -1 Tombstalker, -1 Clique, +1 Goyf, +1 Ponder, +1 Dismember, +1 Sylvan Library. Dismember has been excellent and I haven't missed the second MD Clique (it's in the board), though I definitely want to make room for the second Tombstalker again as it's by far the best threat. I have flooded on manipulation once or twice, but I'm hesitant to cut a Ponder, even after testing (and being happy with) a Spell Pierce. I could see cutting the fourth Goyf as well, ideally for an Artifact, Enchantment, or Planeswalker to make growing the remaining Goyfs easier, which is relevant against Grixis and Eldrazi. I landed on MD Sylvan after initially testing Painful Truths in the slot, but went with Sylvan because it's floor (passive filtering) is higher than the floor on Painful Truths (2B to draw 1, which is typically only relevant in matchups where it gets boarded out) and because of 2 vs. 3 mana. It may be worth testing again though. My sideboard is more substantially different, largely for metagame reasons and to accommodate some of the MD changes.

[Jaytron]

Hi guys

Grazi Grazi

The changes came about as a theorycrafted attempt to beat lands, while still providing a strong anti miracles package. I went 3-0 against lands on the weekend, so i guess it was moderately sucessfull. I did loose my one match against miracles though :-(

Surgery + orb can handle their loam engine, while submerge + needle can shut down their combo. This worked decently well in the games i played. I vividly remember a game i played early orb against lands, and he literally timewalked himself whenever he tried to do something (including using maze). Another game he didnt have punishing fires, i played 2 delvers and countered his loam 4 times while they killed him. In another game i managed to sneak a win with submerger + extirpating his loam

Sylvan is btw also excellent against lands, as it helps you find the pieces, and i 2 times took 8-12 damage of of it to dig

The switch to 4 ponders was an attempt to make sure i could hit delirium on surgery, and is a change i am not a fan of. The deck can definately get ponder flooded, and i think the fact that i had 3-4 ponders in one miracles match, rather then 2 ponders and a bomb was certainly a factor. Going forward i will likely play painful truths in one of these slots as an alternative that i can chuck in my gravyard fast, but still provides a bomb against miracles.

Liliana was always the most mediocre card in the deck, and mostly there to provide a different angle against miracles. I now think i should have been playing 2x library all along. That card is simply excellent, and does the same thing much better. as per above these slots will now be 1x painful truths (experimental) and 1x library

Spike and I also talked at the event about the option to run some hate for grixis delver/eldrazi, but we dont really think we have room (miracles, lands and creature matchups are the priorities) and the submerges ave proven their worth time and time again. If we find room these would most likely be gurmag anglers, but could also be strix/dismember/4th tarmogoyf

Congrats on your finish!

I know you did this for your last build, Goddik, but when you have a chance can you go over SB choices vs top matchups again with this new build?

Glad to see you beat lands 3 matches :O

[downtoonelife]

My deck list yesterday, I made some adjustment in the SB for our local meta. I finished 4th out of 23 players. I had a round 1 bye, 2 wins (Miracles, Eldrazi MUD), a lose (Esper Mentor CB) and a draw (Burn) after swiss.

4 Delver of Secret
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacomb (I only own 1 Misty)
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sb:
1 Tundra
3 Path to Exile
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Spirit Loop
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis

I won over Esper Mentor in 3 games during the QF and then lost to Burn in 3 games in the Semis (In our second game I had a TNN with Spirit Loop in play). Our meta compose of - 3 Miracle variant decks, 2 Lands, 1 Nic Fit, 2 Burn, 1 OmniTell, 2 Infect, 2 Grixis Delver, 1 Alluren, 1 Shardless BUG, 1 GB Pox, 1 Team America, 1 Deathblade, 3 Eldrazi/MUD variants, 1 Reanimator, 1 Death and Taxes. Top 8 were - Deathblade (Champion), Burn (2nd), Death and Taxes (3rd), Team America (4th), Reanimator, Grixis Delver, Esper Mentor and Lands.

[o_boogie]

@Goddik

Congrats on your recent success with the deck. I really like your list from Ovino and plan to start playing it at my local game shop. I was wondering if you could discuss how you sideboard with this list on both the play and draw against shardless, aggro loam, grixis delver, rug delver, and the mirror. Thank you.

[Goddik]

@Goddik

Congrats on your recent success with the deck. I really like your list from Ovino and plan to start playing it at my local game shop. I was wondering if you could discuss how you sideboard with this list on both the play and draw against shardless, aggro loam, grixis delver, rug delver, and the mirror. Thank you.

Have a look back in the thread, there should be a guide with the old list along with philosophy in the matchups. That should let you deduce it. It hasnt really changed in nay of the matchups above

[Kl'rt]

The switch to 4 ponders was an attempt to make sure i could hit delirium on surgery, and is a change i am not a fan of. The deck can definately get ponder flooded, and i think the fact that i had 3-4 ponders in one miracles match, rather then 2 ponders and a bomb was certainly a factor. Going forward i will likely play painful truths in one of these slots as an alternative that i can chuck in my gravyard fast, but still provides a bomb against miracles.

Liliana was always the most mediocre card in the deck, and mostly there to provide a different angle against miracles. I now think i should have been playing 2x library all along. That card is simply excellent, and does the same thing much better. as per above these slots will now be 1x painful truths (experimental) and 1x library


My experience with this deck is that it's much harder to naturally flip a Delver without Brainstorm or Ponder compared to Grixis Delver and Canadian Thresh since those two decks typically run more instants and sorceries (about 30) than this one. I notice your build runs even fewer instants and sorceries and now you're considering cutting another sorcery for an enchantment.

Don't you have any concerns with decreasing your chances to flip Delvers even more?

[El_Drazi_Landscaping]

Hey guys,

I've been slowly breaking into legacy for about a year and a half now (I'm young and don't have a real job yet, so this format is quite expensive for me). I've been playing a UB Death's Shadow Delver deck, but I'm thinking of making it into a BUG Death's Shadow deck that runs like traditional BUG Delver, except Death's Shadow serves the role of Tarmogoyf. I really enjoy grindy games and feel like BUG colors grind it out with the best of them. Here's my list, do you guys think I should go for it?

Land:
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand (I know these aren't the right color fetches, but I already own them and can get the right ones down the road.)
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
2x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Wasteland

Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Death's Shadow
2x Tombstalker

Non-creature Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Thoughtseize
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Ponder / Gitaxian Probe (Haven't settled on this one yet, but leaning towards Ponder)
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Dismember
1x Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
Not sure yet, open to all suggestions. I'll probably just look through here to find out what common cards are used and use them. I should have most things from my UB list and can add things like Golgari Charm.

Here are some of the questions I have:

1) What are your guy's general opinions on this deck?

2) Is 18 land too little? I've seen some lists playing 18 but some playing 20 so I guess there really isn't a stock number?

3) How does the rest of the deck look? Should I increase the number of a card or get rid of a card etc...?)

Thanks for reading and thank you for any help!

[downtoonelife]

Played last night the same list I used last May 1 and I end up with a 4-0 record.

Round 1 vs Eldrazi Moon 2-1
Game 1: Controlled the game with Wasteland, Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach. Delver and Shaman killed him.
Game 2: He played Blood Moon turn 1 and I concede.
Game 3: Controlled him again same as game 1. Tarmogoyf killed him.

Round 2 vs Miracles 2-0
Game 1: He was stuck with 3 lands and I had an aggro hand - Shaman, Delver and Tarmogoyf killed him.
Game 2: We both manage to answer every threat we play. He Terminus my Shaman and Delver, Swords my Tarmogoyf, I Abrupt his Counterbalance, discarded his Jace. I manage to resolve a Sylvan Library and it help me sculpt my hand. He later Entreat the Angel for 3 but I already have Maelstrom Pulse in my hand to kill them. He had no cards in hand when I played a 6/7 Goyf. He was down to 6 when I played Pithing Needle naming Jace and on his turn he draw Jace hehe He died after.

Round 3 vs ANT 2-1
Game 1: Thoughtseize, Hymn and Liliana emptied his hand. Shaman and 2 Delver finished him.
Game 2: I Surgical his LED but he manage to cast Ad Naus and killed me naturally with a Tendrils that he got from Ad Naus.
Game 3: He Tendrils me for 5 and then Empty with 12 tokens on the same turn. I was down to 5 and he's at 24 after but I already have Golgari Charm on top of my library that I setup for my Delver in play. Delver flip killed his tokens. He has no cards in hand. Delver, 3 Shaman and a 3/4 Goyf killed him.

Round 4 vs Eldrazi MUD 2-0
Game 1: Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach controlled him. After I Thoughtseize him he was left with 1 Glimmervoid, 1 Tabernacle, 1 Wurmcoil and 1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and I luckily discarded the Wurmcoil and Ulamog with my Hymn on the next turn. Killed him with my 5/6 Goyf. He never manage to drop any creature.
Game 2: I was stuck with a Sea and 2 Wasteland that I can't use because he Pithing Needled them. I had a Deathrite Shaman but no lands in the graveyard. I was already Brainstorm lock twice and never found a green mana source for my Goyf. Luckily I manage to discard his creature with Thoughtseize. I had a Delver 1 time together with my Deathrite but he killed them with All is Dust. Eventually I had 2 Delver in play that killed him. He had no threat in play.


I still love my list even though in some games I got lucky. Will keep playing the same list. My prize on this tourney is an "I.O.U." 2 EMA booster packs. I can't wait for the spoilers.

[Homason]

Lets bring this Threat back to Life

Played a few Tournaments with Goddicks List.

I ended Up:

4-1 Losing to Infect: He killed me t2 with fow backup 2 times
3-0
4-0
6-2 Losing to Ant and Elves (Elves were very unlucky..)
2-2 Drop. Losing the Mirror ( I made a minor Mistake) and Shardless ( 3 Visions, 4 decay, 3 Strix 2 Disfigure in Game 3 :-D )
5-0

I changed some slots from Tourney to Tourney. In the last Local I played the following 75 and tried 19 Lands:

Creatures [14]

1 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

Instants [18]

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure

Sorceries [8]

1 Painful Truths
3 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach

Lands [19]

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sb

1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Painful Truth
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Spell Pierce
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Sylvan Library
2 Submerge
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm

I will go back to 20 Lands because I had trouble using my Drs and play my Spells during several Turns.
Iam going to cut a Disfigure in the MD while iam unsure which card will be thrown out from the sb to get some Space for the third Submerge.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I have also played around with HJ's list on Magic Online, here are some of my conclusions:

#theweeklywars #11 — Team America (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/05/26/theweeklywars-10-team-america/)

I also realise there's a seperate thread for Delverless lists, but I think the benefits of this list is worth discussing here as well: Team America by pow22 (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/416663#online), top four in the May Legacy Challenge on Magic Online.

[Mat]

I have also played around with HJ's list on Magic Online, here are some of my conclusions:

#theweeklywars #11 — Team America (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/05/26/theweeklywars-10-team-america/)

I also realise there's a seperate thread for Delverless lists, but I think the benefits of this list is worth discussing here as well: Team America by pow22 (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/416663#online), top four in the May Legacy Challenge on Magic Online.

I keep saying this to people, this deck feels really wrong, It has Bayou and Daze, TNN, Tourach and Decay. and on the top of that Delver just doesn't look at its best here. The deck feels pretty much like a worst Shardless/Grixis. That said, I've been playing the Stifle Version of the deck, and it's impressing me, the deck is really consistent, and I don't feel like it's worst than RUG or Grixis, of course I want to play Lightning Bolt+Delver, but at the cost of being 4c, I don't think it's worth. BUG Delver(Stifle) seems the way to go for me, gives access to nice cards, and can play different plans.That said, my other team mates play RUG and Grixis, they are both satisfied with their decks too.

[Homason]

I have also played around with HJ's list on Magic Online, here are some of my conclusions:

#theweeklywars #11 — Team America (https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/2016/05/26/theweeklywars-10-team-america/)

I also realise there's a seperate thread for Delverless lists, but I think the benefits of this list is worth discussing here as well: Team America by pow22 (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/416663#online), top four in the May Legacy Challenge on Magic Online.

Hey Jonathan,

i really enjoy reading your Posts. It is very helpful for me to overthink "fix-slots" like delver of secrets. In my opinion it is wrong to cut the Cliques for Tnn because of our sweepers in the sb but it`s a possibility i will reconsider.

My last tech includes
2 strix
2 clique
3 goyf
2 stalker
1 tnn

I earned an open slot by cutting a creature and tried to go along with a singelton Reanimate.
The Creaturebase and Reanimate came up by theorycrafting to get ahead against BUG and Eldrazi.
Let me hear what you think about this.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Thanks for the feedback, it's very much appreciated.


That said, I've been playing the Stifle Version of the deck, and it's impressing me, the deck is really consistent, and I don't feel like it's worst than RUG or Grixis, of course I want to play Lightning Bolt+Delver, but at the cost of being 4c, I don't think it's worth.

Care to share your list? I never really liked the combination of Deathrite Shaman & Stifle, I always felt I had too many cards that do nothing with those decks. Maybe your list can solve that problem though?



Hey Jonathan,

i really enjoy reading your Posts. It is very helpful for me to overthink "fix-slots" like delver of secrets. In my opinion it is wrong to cut the Cliques for Tnn because of our sweepers in the sb but it`s a possibility i will reconsider.

My last tech includes
2 strix
2 clique
3 goyf
2 stalker
1 tnn

I earned an open slot by cutting a creature and tried to go along with a singelton Reanimate.
The Creaturebase and Reanimate came up by theorycrafting to get ahead against BUG and Eldrazi.
Let me hear what you think about this.


Reanimate is sweet. Not sure if it's actually good, but it can do crazy things. We had a copy in the original burg list, but I was the only one who never got real value from it, while others constantly managed to nab their opponents' Griselbrands...
Strix is something HJ mentioned when I first started playing the deck, but I haven't gotten around to testing it yet.

True-Name being a problem with the sideboard sweepers hasn't come up yet, but I noticed there was a potential problem. I currently have Marsh Casualties in my decklist, but I haven't played since I made the change. True-Name works really well with Jace though, which I really like. Jace is one of the main benefits of running more lands than most Delver decks and Deathrites.

[Homason]

Thanks for the feedback, it's very much appreciated.



Care to share your list? I never really liked the combination of Deathrite Shaman & Stifle, I always felt I had too many cards that do nothing with those decks. Maybe your list can solve that problem though?





Reanimate is sweet. Not sure if it's actually good, but it can do crazy things. We had a copy in the original burg list, but I was the only one who never got real value from it, while others constantly managed to nab their opponents' Griselbrands...
Strix is something HJ mentioned when I first started playing the deck, but I haven't gotten around to testing it yet.

True-Name being a problem with the sideboard sweepers hasn't come up yet, but I noticed there was a potential problem. I currently have Marsh Casualties in my decklist, but I haven't played since I made the change. True-Name works really well with Jace though, which I really like. Jace is one of the main benefits of running more lands than most Delver decks and Deathrites.


I tested the list for some games (went fine) and asked myself:
If I don`t play Delver is my Deck just a worse Version of Shardless BUG?

The Reason we are playing the Deck over Shardless is the better Combo Matchup. By cutting those Delvers we don`t have that benefit anymore.
So I thought about cutting one Delver for TNN but haven`t tested it yet.
Let me know your thoughts about it.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I don't think this deck has a better combo matchup than Shardless because of the Delvers. (Note that I have played Storm a lot against both Shardless and Team America.)
Storm is a big favourite game one even against Team America. The difference comes in the postboard games, where Shardless has so many awful cards (Vision, Strix, Agent, Liliana) they can't cut them all. They also don't get to board in enough countermagic - I actually treat Shardless as a non-blue deck when I'm playing Storm. Team America on the other hand gets to run countermagic and also has Ponder. These two factors make a world of difference. Team America always forces the Storm player to respect countermagic (they have ~11 pieces), Shardless simply doesn't. Even the threat of Daze can slow the Storm player down by a full turn.

The Delverless version of Team America might just be what Shardless wants to be. I board out Delver in a lot of matchups anyway. Cutting them entirely might make the Eldrazi matchup worse though, especially with less than four Goyfs. Them having an Ancient Tomb draw while you have Delver is the easiest way to beat them, and I like having this actually come up. Of course, this only works if you manage to transform Delver, which is not exactly guaranteed.

True-Name is just a great card in this deck. It wins me so many games. I would've liked to try Delverless on MTGO today, but I have neither Moxen nor Lilianas, so I probably won't be able to try that in the near future. I'll see what I can do though, I'm definitely interested in the list.

[dvscape]

Hello guys,

In light of the upcoming Legacy GP in Europe, I started focusing more on the format and specifically on the Delver versions of BUG. After reading through this thread, I see several players have expressed their dissatisfaction at the volatility of the deck in general, as infused by specific cards (i.e. Delver, Hymn, etc).

In addition to the volatitily factor added by cards that do not perform across multiple matchups, I feel that a significant contribution is also the unfocused strategy of most lists. Don't take it as harsh criticism please, but I feel that the ability to transition from a tempo deck to a shabby midrange/control is less relevant than being able to perform one role to the fullest.

In this regard, I have cut TNN & Hymn from my Delver list. I initially started with Stifles, but quickly removed those after I realized that we are not as focused on aggression as Canadian, due to lack of Bolts and Mongeese. The replacements were flexible numbers of Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce. My list below:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
3 Thoughtseize

8 fetches
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

//SB

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Dread of Night

Pros: It has 27 Delver hits and a lower curve than the average BUG list. I think it's actually possible to go down to 18 lands, but I like the added consistency.

Cons: Weak against midrange, since we lack the strong individual cards (Lili, Jace). It's easier to outgrind us via opposing Hymns and a string of removal. Ancestral Vision is a nightmare.

Europe is known as a combo-dominated field, but I doubt that such a statement will stand in a 3,000 player Grand Prix. Regardless, I feel that BUG Delver is a combo killer, while not giving up too much ground against Miracles. The true weakness consists of opposing Midrange and Lands strategies. Those could also be shored up, but I don't want to weaken my strong matchups in any way.

Hit me with your constructive criticism, please.

[btm10]

I don't think this deck has a better combo matchup than Shardless because of the Delvers. (Note that I have played Storm a lot against both Shardless and Team America.)
Storm is a big favourite game one even against Team America. The difference comes in the postboard games, where Shardless has so many awful cards (Vision, Strix, Agent, Liliana) they can't cut them all. They also don't get to board in enough countermagic - I actually treat Shardless as a non-blue deck when I'm playing Storm. Team America on the other hand gets to run countermagic and also has Ponder. These two factors make a world of difference. Team America always forces the Storm player to respect countermagic (they have ~11 pieces), Shardless simply doesn't. Even the threat of Daze can slow the Storm player down by a full turn.

The Delverless version of Team America might just be what Shardless wants to be. I board out Delver in a lot of matchups anyway. Cutting them entirely might make the Eldrazi matchup worse though, especially with less than four Goyfs. Them having an Ancient Tomb draw while you have Delver is the easiest way to beat them, and I like having this actually come up. Of course, this only works if you manage to transform Delver, which is not exactly guaranteed.

True-Name is just a great card in this deck. It wins me so many games. I would've liked to try Delverless on MTGO today, but I have neither Moxen nor Lilianas, so I probably won't be able to try that in the near future. I'll see what I can do though, I'm definitely interested in the list.

There's a lot here, but I think most of it, along with your blog post, is solid reasoning. I was considering Team America for GP Columbus and it's still on the table for Eternal Extravaganza (work and family obligations will keep me from going to Columbus, unfortunately), and came to a lot of similar initial conclusions. What I found when I tested Delver-less TA builds was that they were worse than Delver builds against combo and worse than Shardless against 'fair' decks without gaining enough advantage back on either side to really make the trade-off worth it. The deck has a lot of staying power since it supports Snapcaster Mage, Painful Truths, and Planeswalkers quite well, but it's not a particularly good Daze shell, nor is it as good a Tarmogoyf deck as Shardless.

[hofzge]

In light of the upcoming Legacy GP in Europe, I started focusing more on the format and specifically on the Delver versions of BUG. After reading through this thread, I see several players have expressed their dissatisfaction at the volatility of the deck in general, as infused by specific cards (i.e. Delver, Hymn, etc).

In addition to the volatitily factor added by cards that do not perform across multiple matchups, I feel that a significant contribution is also the unfocused strategy of most lists. Don't take it as harsh criticism please, but I feel that the ability to transition from a tempo deck to a shabby midrange/control is less relevant than being able to perform one role to the fullest.

In this regard, I have cut TNN & Hymn from my Delver list. I initially started with Stifles, but quickly removed those after I realized that we are not as focused on aggression as Canadian, due to lack of Bolts and Mongeese. The replacements were flexible numbers of Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce. My list below:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
3 Thoughtseize

8 fetches
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

//SB

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Painful Truths
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Duress
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Dread of Night

Pros: It has 27 Delver hits and a lower curve than the average BUG list. I think it's actually possible to go down to 18 lands, but I like the added consistency.

Cons: Weak against midrange, since we lack the strong individual cards (Lili, Jace). It's easier to outgrind us via opposing Hymns and a string of removal. Ancestral Vision is a nightmare.

Europe is known as a combo-dominated field, but I doubt that such a statement will stand in a 3,000 player Grand Prix. Regardless, I feel that BUG Delver is a combo killer, while not giving up too much ground against Miracles. The true weakness consists of opposing Midrange and Lands strategies. Those could also be shored up, but I don't want to weaken my strong matchups in any way.

Hit me with your constructive criticism, please.

I love the way your list goes. You are right that the cards in the default lists at the moment don't fully match what you want to do: Hymn, TNN, Liliana and to some extent Tombstalker and Abrupt Decay are clunky spells. Sure they are powerful, but in any game where you don't have Deathrite Shaman in your starting 7 :2: removal spells become a liability.

Building on your list I would change to this (mostly personal taste) - I reduced the land count to 18 and pur another disruption spell main - this could as well be a removal spell:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil

8 fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

//SB
1 Disfigure
2 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Invasive Surgery
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction

2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

[Valarne]

Hello there.

While it seems, that Grixis is the most preferred Delver approach, I think BUG makes better sense in a world of Counterbalances and Chalice of the Voids, amongst other things.

I went 11-3-1 at GP Prague (41st) without facing a single combo deck (besides Dredge I guess) + 4-2 at trials the day before the event, still all grindy matchups, no broken stuff. That was almost what I expected, although I definitely would have expected to meet Show and Tell and Storm as well. Met and beat Shardless, Miracles and Lands several times, lost to Jund, Burn and Maverick, drew with Dredge.

Bottomline - I feel quite confident that I have a good list for the metagame - True-Name being the secret MVP. Weaknesses being the pseudo-mirror against Grixis because of their Bolts, and to some extent graveyard-based decks that either go around DRS, og are too fast. Let me know if you have any thoughts or questions. - Tue

Main 60:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death-Rite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta


SB 15:

2 Marsh Casualties
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Sower of Temptation (could be just one + something else, slot designed for Eldrazi/Shardless/SnT)
2 Bitterblossom (can be split with Sylvan Library)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce

[Mat]

Hello there.

While it seems, that Grixis is the most preferred Delver approach, I think BUG makes better sense in a world of Counterbalances and Chalice of the Voids, amongst other things.

I went 11-3-1 at GP Prague (41st) without facing a single combo deck (besides Dredge I guess) + 4-2 at trials the day before the event, still all grindy matchups, no broken stuff. That was almost what I expected, although I definitely would have expected to meet Show and Tell and Storm as well. Met and beat Shardless, Miracles and Lands several times, lost to Jund, Burn and Maverick, drew with Dredge.

Bottomline - I feel quite confident that I have a good list for the metagame - True-Name being the secret MVP. Weaknesses being the pseudo-mirror against Grixis because of their Bolts, and to some extent graveyard-based decks that either go around DRS, og are too fast. Let me know if you have any thoughts or questions. - Tue

Main 60:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death-Rite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta


SB 15:

2 Marsh Casualties
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Submerge
1 Dismember
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Sower of Temptation (could be just one + something else, slot designed for Eldrazi/Shardless/SnT)
2 Bitterblossom (can be split with Sylvan Library)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce

I Don't like Hymn anymore, makes me play bayou and be in weird positions. I wonder if it won u many games, it probably did I guess. Also, I want to know more about the Bitterblossom, if u have the time. Like you, i think BUG is the way to go, with chalices, counterbalances and Eldrazis everywhere, Decay and Tamogoyf are too good. I'm playing the 18 lands list (3 Trop, 3 U.Sea, 4 Waste) and I'm really impressed by it right now. The deck feels really consistent. Congratz on your finish u did great!

[Valarne]

I Don't like Hymn anymore, makes me play bayou and be in weird positions. I wonder if it won u many games, it probably did I guess. Also, I want to know more about the Bitterblossom, if u have the time. Like you, i think BUG is the way to go, with chalices, counterbalances and Eldrazis everywhere, Decay and Tamogoyf are too good. I'm playing the 18 lands list (3 Trop, 3 U.Sea, 4 Waste) and I'm really impressed by it right now. The deck feels really consistent. Congratz on your finish u did great!

I like Hymn a lot - it improves Miracles and Eldrazi matchup in particular (beyond obvious qualities against combo). I am also not happy with Bayou, so I only play 1, whereas most other lists contain 2. Hymn is also a way of getting rid of removal waiting to take out our creatures. I do board Hymn out often, but as a card that fills the slot of anti-combo-anti control, it is often also very good against creature matchups, simply removing removal or two threats. The sheer powerlevel and versatility gives it the nod over Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce, or Stifle for instance.

Bitterblossom is a house against Miracles, and chumps Marit Lage all day. Also nice in Delver mirrors, at least on the play. But Miracles is the main reason. I prefer a 2cc threat over something heavy like Liliana or Jace.

Edit: Thanks, it was a good run. These were my exact matchups if it is of any interest:

Rd 1: Dragon Stompy – W
Rd 2: Burn – L
Rd 3: Dredge – D
Rd 4: Eldrazi – W
Rd 5: Shardless – W
Rd 6: Jund – L
Rd 7: Lands – W
Rd 8: Miracles – W
Rd 9: Gr Cloudpost – W
Rd 10: Maverick – L
Rd 11: Lands – W
Rd 12: Shardless – W
Rd 13: 4c Loam – W
Rd 14: Miracles – W
Rd 15: Dark Bant – W

[QuranJames]

Hey!

Does anyone see any place for the newly spoiled Whispers of Emrakul in BUG Delver lists? Since we already run Tarmogoyf, Delirium shouldn't be too difficult to enable, and replacing 1-2 Hymns with 1-2 Whispers may be a helpful way to smooth out our mana base in the early game. Any thoughts?

[Asthereal]

Hey!

Does anyone see any place for the newly spoiled Whispers of Emrakul in BUG Delver lists? Since we already run Tarmogoyf, Delirium shouldn't be too difficult to enable, and replacing 1-2 Hymns with 1-2 Whispers may be a helpful way to smooth out our mana base in the early game. Any thoughts?
When Delirium is turned on, hands are most likely to be pretty empty already. Discard matters most when you play it early, and when you play this early, you usually won't have Delirium yet. The BB cost from Hymn is taxing, but I'd never replace Hymn with one of these. If I wanted to replace Hymns, I'd much rather switch to Thoughtseize.

[Moerocknroll]

Hi,
today Grim Flayer was spoiled for the Eldritch Moon Editition. What do the communinty think. May he have place in TA as a 2-3 off.

My Idea is to play this creatures:
4 Delver, 4 DRS, 3-4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Gurmag, 2-3 Grim Flayer.

Cheers

Moe

[btm10]

He seems much worse than Tarmogoyf - harder to cast and tops out at 4/4, so he doesn't even bounce off of an ordinary Tarmogoyf, he just gets eaten. Trample doesn't make up for that and the milling ability is marginal at best. I'd play Managorger Hydra before that guy, and Quirion Dryad is alao likely better.

[Mat]

Hello guys, last week I went to GP São Paulo and played legacy side events, one of them with 150+ players. I'm gonna make a quick report, and since I don't remeber everything I will just write down the really important stuff, and some highlights.

My decklist changed from event to event, so I'm gonna show you the first one, and then gonna show only the changes.

Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
Lands (18)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Winter Orb
1 Murderous Cut
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will


First Event: 3-1
My only lost was to a Shardless BUG, because I played wrong. Sincerely, It was so wrong that, any decent player would have done better. I can definitely say that the deck went 4-0 and I made 3-1.

Second Event 4-0
Changes:
Side:
-2 Baleful Strix
-1 Invasive Surgery
+2 Diverts
+1 Abrupt Decay
This one was a little easier, got a miracles in the way but the guy was just bad. The deck went well. The highlight was the last match, against Affinity where Null Rod was outstanding and won my heart. The Diverts were useless, the fourth Decay was decent, but not impressive.

Third Event 6-2
Main:
-1 Disfigure
+1 Dismember

Side:
-1 Invasive Surgery
+1 Abrupt Decay

I lost to Lands and Elves. Beat a good Miracles player (friend of mine) what made me feel that the deck is really a nice choice.
About the losts:
Lands:
The game was pretty close, and could have went both ways. I drew a lot of cards with D.Confidant, but coulnd't find a second land drop in game 3, that destroyed my game. I'm getting closer to the point where I belive that lands is not going to be a bad matchup anymore. Also, I can assure that the Lands player was good, probably the best brasilian with the deck.

Elves:
Have a lot to say about this matchup. Abrupt is needed, but is awful (3 are probably fine). Decay costs 2 to kill a 1 mana creature, its terrible, here was where I missed Lightning Bolt the most. In my opnion, this is by far, the worst matchup. You can pile up a lot of decent cards against them, but somethimes, your hand is good againt their Aggro or NO or Glimpse, and if they have a different thing in their hand, there is not much u can do.


Overall:
The deck is really resilient, and have a lot to show. The worst match-ups are: Elves, Lands, DnT, Miracles. The last three being pretty close ones. After the event I started working on a list. I think it has future, but Elves are annoying me. Also, as a player, I'm never gonna play a card that's really just good against something in specific . I'm talking about Baleful Strix, right now. It's really good agains Eldrazi and also against Gurmag Angler (Stops it and makes Goyf 5/6), but that's it, I don't think it worth 2 Slots, maybe not even one.

My "Final" deck:
Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
Lands (18)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (11)
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Null Rod
1 Murderous Cut
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

4 Slots in SB can be:
Invasive Surgery
Nihil Spell Bomb
Darkblast
Maelstrom Pulse
Abrupt Decay
Winter Orb
Painful Truths
Liliana, of the Veil
Toxic Deluge
Pithing Needle (Another One)
Grafdigge's Cage
Bitterblossom (Valarne's choice)

Have to figure out the numbers based on Side in/out. But right now, its probably Dark blast, Pulse, Invasive, Nihil.

About D. Confidants:
Bob doens't belong in this deck, that's true, but legacy is so diversified that it really pays off using him. Sometimes It puts people in a position where they have to kill Bob or Delver. depending on their choice, u just have to adjust your gameplan, and win tha game with what is left. That said, maibe I can change them for Painful Truths in the SB.

Sorry for all the grammar mistakes. Any thoughts you have, please share. Thanks!



Bitterblossom is a house against Miracles, and chumps Marit Lage all day. Also nice in Delver mirrors, at least on the play. But Miracles is the main reason. I prefer a 2cc threat over something heavy like Liliana or Jace.


I'm gonna check it out. What about the life loss? It is despicable? If the answer is yes, It's better than Lili indeed.

[Rackhamm]

The Brainstorm show put out an "anti-miracles" bug delver list on their cast yesterday alongside an in-depth discussion.

Full playset of mongoose, stifle, daze, and 2 clique MB. Zero goyf, only 2 TS side for discard. Looks pretty interesting and fits some of the discussion on here recently vis a vis running Hymns and co just feeling like being on a worse version of shardless.

[Agrippa91]

Man, this deck from the brainstorm show just really impresses me!
I play Grixis (with stifle and 2 AD sb) currently because I don't like BUG with all its 2-drops, but I love Nimble Mongoose and the fact that this deck has 6 removal spells as well as 2 Spell Pierce. The only expensive things are your decays which you don't have to play around counterspells and the cliques which are also easily pitched to FoW in G1, but give really nice advantage against combo, lands and miracles, the last two being really good matchups from what I can tell thus far.

I like that we can actually play Rough/Tumble in Golgari Charm here. Together with Invasive Surgery I think this can really balance our elves matchup g2 and g3.

I don't like their sideboard though, here's what I'm currently testing:

2 Invasive Surgery
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hydroblast
2 Disfigure
1 Go for the Throat
2 Golgari Charm
1 Winter Orb
1 Painful Truths
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

Hydroblast might seem weird to you, it's nice against Bloodmoon and Lightning Bolt decks though. Not sure I need 2, it seems nice with so many of these 2 cards around though.

[ironclad8690]

Hydroblast is awesome in grixis.meta. I have been playing that list (with the original sideboard though), recently I 4-1'ed a league with it and I am taking a short break from it.

It is pretty good against control decks, but I was having trouble vs other tempo decks and chalice decks.

[Agrippa91]

Here's a sideboard I thought about, designed for the online meta where there's hardly burn and d&t. This led me to shave the hydroblasts since golgari charm does a better job against young pyromancer imo.

2 Flusterstorm
2 invasive surgery
2 thoughtseize

2 golgari charm

2 disfigure
2 go for the throat

2 surgical extraction
1 pithing needle

Here's the reasonings:
I really focused on combo and tempo decks for the sideboard. So i put in efficient removal and a ton of disruption. Against storm and other combo decks I'd like to take out all nimble mongooses and just go with 10 efficient creatures. Exception is Sneak&Show where I'd like to keep in 2 decays against defense grid and blood moon. Invasive Surgery is a stupidly underplayed card imo, also against elves. I split it with Flusterstorm though to provide additional cards to bring in vs red delver decks.
The 2 disfigures are there against drs and delver, go for the throats I liked vs Eldrazi especially, but are also good against other goyf decks.
golgari charm is very much like rough/tumble, on of the strengths of RUG Delver postboard. They also help against TNN, RIP and Blood Moon which is nice, helping us by not having to waste decays in the miracles matchup.

Surgical is not only against lands (which is a fine matchup), but especially against fast reanimator and dredge decks since we tend to be a fairly slow deck.

I don't think I have to explain Pithing Needle.

I really don't think we need painful truths or winter orb. Not only are those two cards super overrated, but playing with a stifle grixis build I realized how clunky they were. I really want this deck to play out as efficiently as possible.

[sdematt]

I've been really liking my LD build quite a bit. Has anyone been playing around with Winter Orbs in the main as well?

[Agrippa91]

Winter Orb is really painful against Eldrazi and Grixis Delver which there are a lot of so I'm not sure it that's viable. In a control-meta it's a good call for sure though.

[blablub]

I would allways play Mongoose instead of Goyf if there weren't any tentacle Monsters with Power X/4 :(
i feel with this creature configuration you cant win against Eldrazi. Maybe the full set of Strixes in the Sideboard can change things, just an idea

[sdematt]

Winter Orb is really painful against Eldrazi and Grixis Delver which there are a lot of so I'm not sure it that's viable. In a control-meta it's a good call for sure though.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Sinkhole
2 Winter Orb

1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

//SIDE//

2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict

Is what I'm trying.

[H]

Is what I'm trying.

Real streamlined, I like it. Winter Orb? And Sinkhole? On boy.

Also, I tried to PM you but it says your box is full.

[sdematt]

Cleared. It's really slick and I love Beta Winter Orbs next to Beta Sinks with Beta duals.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Still have summer basics?

[sdematt]

Still have summer basics?

This deck doesn't play basics, you silly goose. But yes, still pimping, then proceeding to go 3-1 then drop to go do sunset driving.

[H]

Cleared. It's really slick and I love Beta Winter Orbs next to Beta Sinks with Beta duals.

All I got is FBB Orbs and FBB duals, but perhaps I will grade to Beta 'holes, Unlimited ones are kind of icky when the whole deck is BB.

[lucksack_delver_flip]

Would anyone be interested in a mini tournament report of my thoughts/experiences piloting the Stifle/Mongoose BUG Delver deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105818) in the Baltimore Legacy Classic?

[theMonster]

Would anyone be interested in a mini tournament report of my thoughts/experiences piloting the Stifle/Mongoose BUG Delver deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105818) in the Baltimore Legacy Classic?

Definitely! I'm most curious about how well Mongoose performed. Was there much tension between it and Deathrite? Was its 3/3 body sufficient with all the Anglers around? And how was Painful Truths alongside Winter Orb in the sideboard? Anything you'd change about the list?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yep, I wanna see.

[meffeo]

Would anyone be interested in a mini tournament report of my thoughts/experiences piloting the Stifle/Mongoose BUG Delver deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105818) in the Baltimore Legacy Classic?

Definitely. I tried your list at my local with some minor changes (ending 2-2):

MD: -1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Sylvan Library
SB: -1 Surgical Extraction, -1 Winter Orb, +1 Invasive Surgery, +1 Grafdigger's Cage

[sdematt]

I'm going to try Stifles over the Sinkholes to do a bit more duty on Miracles, but by far, Winter Orb is the nutter butters there.

[alastair]

4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Sinkhole.

I've always found this strange. If I'm taking your land, I don't care how many cards you have in hand.

Have played Stifle + Sinkhole with 2-3 Snapcaster before, lots of fun with a cute Dreadnought from time to time. MD Winters Orbs is a step beyond my testing. Favourite SB card, but MB is a definite statement of intent.

[Whitefaces]

I've always found this strange. If I'm taking your land, I don't care how many cards you have in hand.

Totally agree, I don't like these cards in the same deck bar something like Pox.

I'm also not big on Sinkhole and Stifle together as there's too much tension between being proactive and reactive, but at least they're focused on the same goal.

[lucksack_delver_flip]

Here is my mini tournament report of my T8 finish with the Miracle-Slayer BUG Delver deck in the SCG Baltimore Legacy Classic (120 players, 7 rounds of swiss). The list can be found here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105818

I didn't take extensive notes on my matchups, so I am going by memory here. Please excuse my vague descriptions.

Round 1 | U/G Infect | Games: 2-1 | Record: 1-0 | SB Plan:+2 Disfigure, +2 Go for the Throat, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Flusterstorm; -4 Stifle, -2 Force of Will
Game 1: I was able to control my opponent's board with the 6 MD removal spells and 4 Wasteland. I was at something like 3 infect and had my opponent dead in two attacks if I sent the team. I did and my opponent drew Become Immense for the dagger win the very next turn.
Game 2: This matchup is much easier after sideboarding. My plan post-board is to use my 10 removal spells to keep the board clear and allow my attackers to get there; pretty simple. The plan went smoothly this game and he never had a relevant density of threats.
Game 3: This game was very interesting. The first turn my opponent played fetchland then passed. I knew he had Stifle, so I just played a fetchland and passed back. He played another fetchland and passed back to me. On my second turn, I played a second fetchland and cracked it, knowing he would crack to attempt to Stifle. He did so, and I proceeded with my second fetchland and he Stifled that one too! I was left with two Wastelands and some other uncastable cards. This proved to be a blessing because Wasteland was able to hold off his Inkmoths. I eventually drew some lands and was able to neatly take care of his board and deploy some threats. He built up a hand with Berserk + pump spells and went all in on it, but I had enough free counters and a Dismember to take care of his one infecter, and that sealed the game.

Round 2 | RUG Lands | Games: 2-1 | Record: 2-0 | SB Plan: +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Winter Orb, +1 Pitihing Needle; -4 Daze, -2 Dismember
Game 1: I played some fast threats and used my free counters to keep him off doing relevant things for long enough to get the win. Nimble Mongoose was an all-star.
Game 2: He double Engineered Explosives me on back-to-back turns, and has me on the backfoot with Tireless Trackers and the mana restriction plan, then he drops a Trinisphere before I scoop. Surgical Extractions were rotting in my hand the whole game.
Game 3: I get the early Deathrite and Wasteland a Tabernacle to keep my mana flowing. Nimble Mongoose plinks away some damage, while I counter his haymakers. He taps out for something, and I drop the Winter Orb to put the stamp on the game.

Round 3 | Esper Deathblade | Games: 2-0 | Record: 3-0 | SB Plan: +2 Painful Truths, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Disfigure; -4 Force of Will
Games 1 & 2: These games played out very similarly. I kept him off critical mana with Stifle and Wasteland and countered his overcosted removal (Vindicate) with my free spells. In other words, I tempo'd my opponent out, and did the "RUG Delver" thing.

Round 4 | ANT | Games: 2-1 | Record: 4-0 | SB Plan: +2 Thoughtseize, +3 Surgical Extraction, +1 Flusterstorm; -4 Abrupt Decay, -2 Dismember
Game 1: I kept an incredible hand against any fair deck. Turn 1 Deathrite into Delver + double Mongoose. Unfortunately I died soon on Turn 3 because that hand is garbage against combo.
Game 2: Delver + wall of counters + Surgical Extraction on Infernal Tutor
Game 3: Kept a no Force of Will hand with plenty of other disruption. My opponent began to go off but miscounted his mana and blew half his hand on turn 1. I untapped, played a fetch and passed. We played draw go, with my Stifling some fetchlands until I found another land and dropped a threat. It was pretty straightforward after that.

Round 5 | D&T | Games: 0-2 | Record: 4-1 | SB Plan (spoiler, it doesn't matter, the matchup is very bad): +2 Disfigure, +2 Go for the Throat, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Thoughtseize, -4 Stifle, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Force of Will
Game 1: He deals with my early threats and doesn't care about Mongoose. Mirran Crusader makes short work of me.
Game 2: I almost begin to stabilize then my opponent draws Batterskull into Mirran Crusader into Rest in Peace. I nearly vomited just writing that last sentence.

Round 6 | Meathooks (CounterSlivers) | Games: 2-0 | Record 5-1 | SB Plan (On draw): +2 Disfigure, +2 Go for the Throat, -2 Spell Pierce, -2 Daze
Game 1: Stifle + Wasteland + double Delver while I counter anything my opponent tries to get going.
Game 2: Stifle + Wasteland + Deathrite + Delver while I counter anything my opponent tries to get going.
I actually think this matchup is very bad for Delver, but I got some sweet draws, and my opponent definitely let me know that! I generally will snap counter anything my opponent lets me in this matchup because Cavern of Souls makes your permission look pretty dumb. I am really only scared of Aether Vial and Crystalline Sliver in this matchup. Everything else, including Hibernation Sliver, plays into our tempo gameplan. In any case, I was glad to put this one behind me.

Round 7 | Sneak & Show/Omnitell mashup | Games: 2-0 | Record 6-1 | SB Plan: +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pithing Neede, -2 Abrupt Decay, -2 Dismember (Keep two Decay for Blood Moon)
Game 1: A quick clock and the combination of Stifle/Wasteland kept my opponent from getting any real traction.
Game 2: My opponent slams a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy on turn 2, and starts to churn some cards. I try to keep him off flipping it by using Deathrite activations for a bit before a counter war makes that impossible. Fortunately, my opponent activated BEFORE we had our counter war, and I was able to Brainstorm into Pithing Needle to turn the Jace into a vanilla 0/2 (kind of annoying against non-loose Mongoose). I eventually draw into Delver and keep up enough counter magic to close out the game.

Quarterfinals | D&T | Games: 0-2 | Record: 6-2 | SB Plan: +2 Disfigure, +2 Go for the Throat, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Thoughtseize, -4 Stifle, -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Force of Will
Game 1: Mirran Crusader
Game 2: Mirran Crusader + Umezawa's Jitte

I ended swiss in 2nd place, and finished 6th overall. I didn't get to play against Miracles at all, which was kind of annoying. I did, however, play the Lands matchup, and our boarding plan for that deck is quite punishing. Nimble Mongoose was incredible all day long. Stifle + Wasteland is extremely strong in a shell where 12 of your 14 threats cost 1 to cast. This deck cantrips in the early turns considerably well, especially against combo, where you can almost always find a threat AND deploy it in the same turn.

One of the potential criticisms I always here when folks evaluate this list is that Deathrite and Mongoose are a "non-bo." I never had this issue except against Death & Taxes, but I feel that matchup is as bad as it could be and the additional anti-synergy isn't the difference maker.

I felt like the sideboard had a very nice mix of cards to combat the decks I saw. We even had a plan for Death & Taxes. Unfortunately, this deck cannot beat Mirran Crusader, and although Delver is our best threat, it has a HUGE target on its back that reads "Swords me!" Between Aether Vial, Mother of Runes, Thalia, Mirran Crusader, and Stoneforge Mystic, there just aren't enough Abrupt Decays in the world. Abrupt Decay is also terri-bad against Thalia decks. I thought long and hard about what I would change in the deck to counter this matchup. Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties seem appealing at first blush, but then I began to think about what I would cut. If we cut a Surgical, we make the Storm and Lands matchups worse, and if we cut a Thoughtseize we make this and all combo matchups worse. Winter Orb and Pithing Needle play a huge role against Miracles and Lands, while Painful Truths is an all-star in the fair blue deck matchups.

I really don't think I would change anything at this point. I would recommend this deck to anyone wanting to play Delver in a metagame that has Miracles, Lands, combo, and fair blue decks. Obviously if Elves and D&T are running rampant, leave this list at home and play red for Forked Bolt/Lightning Bolt. I have played lots of Delver decks (see my username), and this one felt like it had the leanest curve, smoothest draws, best mana, and most cohesive sideboarding plan I have ever experienced. Dust off your Stifles and Nimble Mongeese, tuck your Hymns, Bayous, and Tarmogoyfs back in their binders, and take this list out for a spin. You won't regret it.

[alastair]

I'm also not big on Sinkhole and Stifle together

Very true, but 1-2 Pierce/Flusterstorm + 4 Stifle allows you an Island go Turn 1, into a proactive Goyf / Sinkhole Turn 2 (or the ultimate 12/12 trample). The follow up Snap Stifle / Sinkhole just seams rude.

[KobeBryan]

Very true, but 1-2 Pierce/Flusterstorm + 4 Stifle allows you an Island go Turn 1, into a proactive Goyf / Sinkhole Turn 2 (or the ultimate 12/12 trample). The follow up Snap Stifle / Sinkhole just seams rude.

One is a tap out, the other is a wait out.

Not gonna work

[Whitefaces]

I thought long and hard about what I would change in the deck to counter this matchup. Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties seem appealing at first blush, but then I began to think about what I would cut. If we cut a Surgical, we make the Storm and Lands matchups worse, and if we cut a Thoughtseize we make this and all combo matchups worse. Winter Orb and Pithing Needle play a huge role against Miracles and Lands, while Painful Truths is an all-star in the fair blue deck matchups.

Thanks for the report!

I used to play BUG Delver with Stifle as my go to deck before Eldrazi came along then switched to 4c for Bolt and Grudge mostly. I also found the DnT matchup close to impossible and ended up with two Dread of Night in the SB. This was also just after Monastery Mentor came into Legacy so killed two birds with one stone, Mentor and DnT are actually seeing even more play now. Since the maindeck is already very strong vs Miracles SB cards for this could be shaved in place of Dreads? Though I can see the problem of Orbs and Needles being very important vs Lands. I've been quite unimpressed with Truths, Mongoose is a nightmare for most fair decks already, and Stifle keeps Shardless down by getting under them or 'countering' Visions that aren't cascaded into.

Anyway, big fan of the podcast too! Will be giving this list a spin soon :)


Very true, but 1-2 Pierce/Flusterstorm + 4 Stifle allows you an Island go Turn 1, into a proactive Goyf / Sinkhole Turn 2 (or the ultimate 12/12 trample). The follow up Snap Stifle / Sinkhole just seams rude.

Sure, but if they don't play into the stifle/pierce turn 1 then this line doesn't work. To add to that, especially if they've seen stifle game one they're not going to be cracking fetches into open mana which gives Sinkhole no good targets.

[alastair]

If someone sits opposite me with un-fetched lands in fear of stifle while I turn sideways with Delver or hit their basics with Sinkhole or ponder into another land-drop; I'm all good as they miss mana/turn. I'm also fine pondering into Dreadnought and aiming stifle at that instead, 2-3 turns not using the land is still value.

Stifle game 2 is weaker, but the implicit threat and narrowing of their options likely reducing the power of brainstorm, is all upside.

I'm not saying I think Sinkhole is a good choice at the minute, it's that 4 sinkhole is pretty random. You need to support it, as Stifle and Frostbringer do.

[Whitefaces]

If someone sits opposite me with un-fetched lands in fear of stifle while I turn sideways with Delver or hit their basics with Sinkhole or ponder into another land-drop; I'm all good as they miss mana/turn. I'm also fine pondering into Dreadnought and aiming stifle at that instead, 2-3 turns not using the land is still value.

That's not the point. You're not swinging with Delver, you're casting Sinkhole. Or you're not, which leads to the tension between the two. I'm talking about the early turns of a game. If you're in the mid or late game these effects are terrible and should be used on other effects for Stifle (PW activations, Eldrazi triggers...whatever) or utility lands in the case of Sinkhole.

It's no secret that Delver decks with Stifle gain a huge percentage of a matchup when on the play. In theory 'not cracking fetches' sounds good to Delver, but that doesn't work when you're tapping out for a Dazable/Piercable spell like Hymn or Sinkhole. These spells just don't work in the same deck.

[meffeo]

Sick report

Congrats, man. What do you think about Grafdigger's Cage? It improves the Elves + generic GSZ MUs (and helps vs ANT / Dredge / Reanimator).
I'd cut the 3rd Surgical Extraction and probably the 2nd Winter Orb in favour of a Dread of Night, since the D&T MU looks like a massacre.

[lucksack_delver_flip]

Congrats, man. What do you think about Grafdigger's Cage? It improves the Elves + generic GSZ MUs (and helps vs ANT / Dredge / Reanimator).
I'd cut the 3rd Surgical Extraction and probably the 2nd Winter Orb in favour of a Dread of Night, since the D&T MU looks like a massacre.

Grafdigger's Cage is a fine sideboard card. It isn't a free spell, which is kind of annoying and those decks generally pack some kind of artifact/enchantment disruption, whether it be Reclamation Sage, Abrupt Decay, Nature's Claim, etc. Unfortunately, Grafdigger's Cage does stone nothing against Lands, which is a matchup we were trying to combat, especially here in eastern Maryland. I don't see Elves being played consistently enough for me to put specific hate cards in my sideboard for it.

Cutting the 2nd Winter Orb is reasonable, but you will definitely lose percentages against Miracles and Lands. Dread of Night certainly is a haymaker, and can be quite nice against the 4-Mentor build of Miracles in addition to D&T. I encourage you to test it and let us know what your results are. I will continue to be a proponent of this particular BUG build because I feel like it attacks the current meta very well and is as lean as a BUG Delver build has ever been.

If my meta were more D&T-heavy, rather than Lands/Aggro Loam/Miracles-heavy, I would have built the sideboard differently to include some number of sweeper effects.

[meffeo]

Grafdigger's Cage is a fine sideboard card. It isn't a free spell, which is kind of annoying and those decks generally pack some kind of artifact/enchantment disruption, whether it be Reclamation Sage, Abrupt Decay, Nature's Claim, etc. Unfortunately, Grafdigger's Cage does stone nothing against Lands, which is a matchup we were trying to combat, especially here in eastern Maryland. I don't see Elves being played consistently enough for me to put specific hate cards in my sideboard for it.

Cutting the 2nd Winter Orb is reasonable, but you will definitely lose percentages against Miracles and Lands. Dread of Night certainly is a haymaker, and can be quite nice against the 4-Mentor build of Miracles in addition to D&T. I encourage you to test it and let us know what your results are. I will continue to be a proponent of this particular BUG build because I feel like it attacks the current meta very well and is as lean as a BUG Delver build has ever been.

If my meta were more D&T-heavy, rather than Lands/Aggro Loam/Miracles-heavy, I would have built the sideboard differently to include some number of sweeper effects.

Thanks for your answers. I will try and let you know my impressions on the deck.

[diablo4488]

Hello Guys

Before i went to this deck i played RUG 2 years but always wanted to play Dark Confidant in a Delver shell.
So recently i saw this deck (Jim Davis list) and felt in love with it because it doesn't give up the mana denial plan.
I took the same list (changed maybe 2-3 SB slots) to GP Prague. On Friday the deck was bonkers.
I played in some small "Enter the Arena" events (4 rounds Swiss) and won a lot.
Then on Saturday i went 5-4 but was paired 3 times to Shardless (1-2, 2-1, 0-2), Lands (lost once at opponent at 2 life and at 3 life...), NicFit (just brutal vs Delver), and Imperial Taxes...

So the list was like 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 3 Stifle, 3 Confidant, 1 TNN, 3 Pierce, 3 FoW

SB:
2 Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Strix
1 Null Rod
1 Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Clique
1 FoW
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Dismember
1 Pulse

So my question is how is your sideboard plan vs Shardless? I think they are generally in favor.
From my experience there are 2 ways to win: Stifle, Wasteland (mana denial) or Confidant (card advantage).

Tanks for some constructive answers of you guys!

[lucksack_delver_flip]

Hello Guys

Before i went to this deck i played RUG 2 years but always wanted to play Dark Confidant in a Delver shell.
So recently i saw this deck (Jim Davis list) and felt in love with it because it doesn't give up the mana denial plan.
I took the same list (changed maybe 2-3 SB slots) to GP Prague. On Friday the deck was bonkers.
I played in some small "Enter the Arena" events (4 rounds Swiss) and won a lot.
Then on Saturday i went 5-4 but was paired 3 times to Shardless (1-2, 2-1, 0-2), Lands (lost once at opponent at 2 life and at 3 life...), NicFit (just brutal vs Delver), and Imperial Taxes...

So the list was like 3 Decay, 2 Disfigure, 3 Stifle, 3 Confidant, 1 TNN, 3 Pierce, 3 FoW

SB:
2 Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Strix
1 Null Rod
1 Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Clique
1 FoW
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Dismember
1 Pulse

So my question is how is your sideboard plan vs Shardless? I think they are generally in favor.
From my experience there are 2 ways to win: Stifle, Wasteland (mana denial) or Confidant (card advantage).

Tanks for some constructive answers of you guys!

This SB isn't well-equipped for Shardless, but I would probably go with -3 Force of Will, -3 Spell Pierce, +2 Baleful Strix, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Dismember, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Winter Orb. The 3rd Spell Pierce vs. the Winter Orb is a toss-up. I would say that Winter Orb is probably marginally better, but is very bad if you let them establish Deathrite Shaman presence. Stifle/Wasteland is probably your best route to victory. Shardless BUG will board into more removal and will take out their discard against you. They will just try to establish their mana, control your threats, and let cards like Ancestral Vision and Shardless Agent take over the game.

[diablo4488]

This SB isn't well-equipped for Shardless, but I would probably go with -3 Force of Will, -3 Spell Pierce, +2 Baleful Strix, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Dismember, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Winter Orb. The 3rd Spell Pierce vs. the Winter Orb is a toss-up. I would say that Winter Orb is probably marginally better, but is very bad if you let them establish Deathrite Shaman presence. Stifle/Wasteland is probably your best route to victory. Shardless BUG will board into more removal and will take out their discard against you. They will just try to establish their mana, control your threats, and let cards like Ancestral Vision and Shardless Agent take over the game.

So this is what i don't understand. Why would you board in Strix? It is not really a creature which can close out games fast and i already play 16 of them.
What about the Charm vs. their Strix? It will kill your Confidant/TNN in the badest situation. But Maybe can also regenerate a targeted Delver/Goyf by Decay.
And what about the Thoughtseize, i know it's a bad topdeck but if you can early pick a BS, DRS, Agent, Hymn?
What about Needle on Liliana. Or do they already board it out?
Clique, Dismember, Pulse, Orb is set. But about the rest i'm not really sure.

[lucksack_delver_flip]

So this is what i don't understand. Why would you board in Strix? It is not really a creature which can close out games fast and i already play 16 of them.
What about the Charm vs. their Strix? It will kill your Confidant/TNN in the badest situation. But Maybe can also regenerate a targeted Delver/Goyf by Decay.
And what about the Thoughtseize, i know it's a bad topdeck but if you can early pick a BS, DRS, Agent, Hymn?
What about Needle on Liliana. Or do they already board it out?
Clique, Dismember, Pulse, Orb is set. But about the rest i'm not really sure.

Let me preface this by saying that I don't think that Baleful Strix is actually a very good card vs. Shardless BUG. It is, however, better than either Force of Will or Spell Pierce. You have 6 cards that are actively bad in the matchup and 6 cards that are a bit better in your sideboard. Baleful Strix is perfectly reasonable because it replaces itself, it flies, and it trades profitably with every creature Shardless can present.

Charm is pretty bad vs. Shardless BUG as the -1/-1 ability hits only a single creature in their MD and the regenerate clause is pretty useless as you will only ever be trading it to save a single creature, which plays exactly into the Shardless gameplan. Thoughtseize, and all targeted discard, is quite bad because Shardless BUG isn't a deck that cares about the individual quality of its cards very much -- no one card is far and away better than the others. Discard is negative tempo as it does not affect the board and Shardless BUG plays draw 3s and every two-for-one imaginable, so they just don't care if you discard them. Also, they can just rip Shardless Agent and put 7 power on the board out of nowhere.

Pithing Needle is maybe justifiable as it hits Liliana, Jace, and Creeping Tar Pit, but it's not a card I would be super excited about drawing. It is also a nice Abrupt Decay target.

[meffeo]

Top8'ed a small tourney (30 peepz) with a Stifle build of Team America. Draw vs Esper Deathblade, won vs Miracles, Junk, Shardless, UR Delver, Reanimator and lost in semis vs D&T.

If anyone is interested I could briefly write a report.

[lucksack_delver_flip]

Top8'ed a small tourney (30 peepz) with a Stifle build of Team America. Draw vs Esper Deathblade, won vs Miracles, Junk, Shardless, UR Delver, Reanimator and lost in semis vs D&T.

If anyone is interested I could briefly write a report.

I'm interested!

[meffeo]

As requested by some of you, here's the report of my last tourney with deck. The list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
2 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

2 Disfigure
2 Go for the Throat
1 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Painful Truths
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dread of Night


I apologize in advance for any possible mistake I made reporting the games.


Miracles

We went for an extremely long game 1, where I put him low on life until he “stabilized” with Jace; unfortunately he had to -1 all the time in order to bounce my lonely Tarmo. I won at the time Jace left the field.

G2 was almost a recap of the first game, with multiple Termini hitting the table and a lot of Decay (4). He at 3 with two Angel tokens on the battlefield, I drew the mighty TNN after resolving two Painful Truths and right just before the lethal swing, a timely Terminus cleared the board. Turns were over after that.

1-0

SB

-2 Dismember, -2 Wasteland, -2 Daze

+1 Winter Orb, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Dread of Night, +2 Painful Truths

Junk

I had the perfect curve with DRS + Tarmo. I Dazed an IoK and a SFM. He scooped very quickly.

I mulliganed to 5 in the second game and started with Delver + Delver + Daze backup. They flipped by themselves and flew over a Dark Confidant that revealed Choke first (non influential since I was way ahead) and Thoughtseize after, promptly played to speed up my clock.

2-0

SB

-4 Force of Will, -2 Spell Pierce

+2 Disfigure, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Go for the Throat

Esper Deathblade

We know each other and we know what we do play. Not the greatest MU by my side.

I lost G1 due to the fact that I drew Stifle after Decay after Stifle after Decay and not a single threat. I messed up a bit his greedy manabase but in the end an equipped Snapcaster killed me.

I had a pretty fast clock in G2 and was able to completely screw up his manabase with Stifle and Wasteland. With 7 minutes left on the clock, we shuffled our decks and decide that time wouldn’t have been enough.

1-1-1

SB

-4 Force of Will, -2 Spell Pierce

+2 Disfigure, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Go for the Throat

Shardless BUG

The not-so-easy-MU saga continues. We got deckchecked and my opponent was found with a Force of Will more than what his decklist was saying. We proceeded then to the second game where I was able to Decay his early Strix to let my Delver fly over the rainbow. I Fowed an Ancestral Recall and my opponent did not find any juice after that.

2-0

No SB but a pretty stock

-4 Force of Will, -2 Spell Pierce

+2 Disfigure, +2 Thoughtseize, +2 Go for the Throat

UR Delver

I stabilized the board with Tarmo and DRS plus removal for his Stormchaser Mage. He tried to PoP me to fast lethal but Spell Pierce saved the day.

He had his PoP revenge during G2, in which I was at 2 with active Wasteland + G DRS activation that wasn’t able to save me.

We went for G3, I killed his threats until a turn 3 True-Name Nemesis almost sealed the deal. He went for Grim Lavamancer but the race was from my side.

2-1

SB

-4 Force of Will, -2 Dismember

+2 Disfigure, +2 Go for the Throat, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Flusterstorm

Finished first after the swiss, straight to the Top8 where I had to face

Reanimator

I wrongly put my opponent on some kind of S&T variant since I saw him slammin’ a Show & Tell some matches before. I mulliganed a mediocre hand and kept a mono land hand with double Delver + double Stifle. I started with Delver, he went for Swamp and passed the turn. I masked my surprise and played another Delver. He went EOT Entomb grabbin’ the mighty Sphinx of the Steel Wind into Reanimate. I scooped.

I felt comfortable knowing my pretty strong SB and boarded like that:

-2 Dismember, -4 Abrupt Decay, -1 Wasteland

+2 Go for the Throat, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Grafdigger’s Cage

Kept a nice hand with Surgical + DRS and went for the tiny planeswalker that got Decayed pretty soon. I was able to Pierce his S&T and Extract all his Griselbrands. Downhill from there, with Tarmo and DRS keeping safe the board.

We went for G3. We cantripped a bit and I sculpt my hand with 2x Force (with pitch), Flusterstorm and triple DRS. Nuff’ said.

2-1

Death and Taxes

Yeah, why not. Awfullest MU ever. G1 was really close, with a flipped Delver that putted him to 3. He found then a Serra Avenger that closed the road. A superlative Brainstorm showed me double DRS + True-Name Nemesis. I kept the Shaman and played quickly the second one. Suddenly, a random Revoker came from the top and shut the door. TNN was my last chance but an equipped (with Jitte) Mirran Crusader and me without Stifles decided that NO.

(Massive) SB

-4 Stifle, -3 Force of Will

+1 Dread of Night, +2 Disfigure, +2 Go for the Throat, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Winter Orb, +2 Thoughtseize

The most perfect curve killed me in 4 or 5 turns. Crusader alive and kickin’ for the win. There was absolutely no chance.

5-1-1, 10-1-1

The tournament went smoothly and all my opponents were very friendly and positive. Props to the organizer (http://www.magickeller.de/) and to my Berlin fellas.

[Whitefaces]

Cheers for the report, and nicely done! Sounds like TNN was clutch a number of times. How have the Cliques been for everybody? I understand they're largely with Miracles in mind, but we do have Stifles for miracle triggers, could it become two of the fish instead? It's such a huge trump in a lot of fair matchup and is Mongoose 5-6 vs Miracles.

Regarding the DnT matchup. I think we have to go to two Dread of Night in the SB at least or just abandon the matchup, it's such a nightmare.

[meffeo]

Cheers for the report, and nicely done! Sounds like TNN was clutch a number of times. How have the Cliques been for everybody? I understand they're largely with Miracles in mind, but we do have Stifles for miracle triggers, could it become two of the fish instead? It's such a huge trump in a lot of fair matchup and is Mongoose 5-6 vs Miracles.

Regarding the DnT matchup. I think we have to go to two Dread of Night in the SB at least or just abandon the matchup, it's such a nightmare.

Cheers man.

Clique is really versatile and has a lot of applications. An underrated card.

Regarding the Dnt matchup. I was thinking at a Jitte: it's the only way to kill a Crusader, our biggest and problematic creature.

[Whitefaces]

Cheers man.

Clique is really versatile and has a lot of applications. An underrated card.

Regarding the Dnt matchup. I was thinking at a Jitte: it's the only way to kill a Crusader, our biggest and problematic creature.

It's good no doubt, I love playing with it too, but TNN seems to be a perfect fit in this deck too. Might give this list a run with 2x soon over the Cliques, will let you guys know if I get the chance.

TNN can deal with Crusader too in a sense as long as you keep Mother of Runes off the table.

I don't think you can play jitte in this deck, DRS isn't ideal to carry it, you can't equip to the goose because of shroud, Delvers rarely live in the matchups you want Jitte. If we had more TNNs then there's an argument for it :tongue: Would probably need some Strix in the SB too to have enough creatures to equip to, and evasion is great for this plan. But this is moving away from the Stifle plan of the deck too much.

[meffeo]

I agree. The 2nd Dread of Night seems to be the better choice, even if I'm still wondering what to cut.

Btw 4-0ed the local tonight. Won against Miracles, Eldrazi, the mirror and UR Delver.

TNN MVP: confirmed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[Fallacy]

I see some recent lists, like the previously discussed, running 2 Painful Truths. My question is wouldn't we want to play Sylvan Library in that spot? Lower mana cost, pumps goyf when it's in the GY, can use every turn, etc.

In order to get in 2 Dread of Night, I am looking at something like this (+1 Orb, +1 Library, +1 Dread of Night, -2 Painful Truths, -1 GD Cage):

2 Disfigure
2 Go for the Throat
2 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dread of Night

If anyone has already tried this please let me know your experience. I'll be trying this out myself.

[Whitefaces]

I'm not a fan of Sylvan Library these days. It's slow vs other Delver or midrange decks and vs Miracles they will be bringing in W//T for Orb, Needle and Null Rod already, having an Enchantment too is such a blowout. I'm not big on Painful Truths either but would play it over Library. Also, when comparing Truths vs Library, to get the CA Truths gives you have to pay an additional 5 life.

I think if you're playing Stifle you just play to get under these decks and tempo them out. Otherwise you lean on Hymn primarily for card advantage.


I agree. The 2nd Dread of Night seems to be the better choice, even if I'm still wondering what to cut.

Btw 4-0ed the local tonight. Won against Miracles, Eldrazi, the mirror and UR Delver.

TNN MVP: confirmed.

Nice work!

Especially now with this new Recruiter I'll be running a couple of Dread of Nights at least I think, haymakers are imperative to win the matchup, I'm just worried they'll have easy access to a Leonin Relic-Warder now :frown:

I'm not sure what the cut is either, though. I think a piece of removal could go, with 4 Decay/2 Dismember MD and 4 additional pieces in the SB a GffT could be shaved, would depend how it effects Eldrazi SBing tables.

I've been concentrating on 4c Delver and Miracles recently in the run up to MKM London, but will try and get some games in with the Mongoose build soon!

[David Kaplan]

I am a big fan of Jim Davis' innovation of Stifles with a few spots shaved to introduce 3 Confidants. This is where I'm at for the Legacy Open at SCG NJ this weekend:

Legacy Stifle BUG Delver

//Threat
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 True-Name Nemesis
--16

//Counter
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
--10

//Disruption
3 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
--8

//Draw
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
--8

//Mana
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
--18

//Sideboard
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Dread of Night
1 Disfigure
2 Baleful Strix
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Winter Orb
1 Bitterblossom
--15

In trying out Bitterblossom vs. Miracles, Lands and grindy fair decks. Has anyone used it before?

[diablo4488]

Regarding the DnT matchup. I think we have to go to two Dread of Night in the SB at least or just abandon the matchup, it's such a nightmare.

I wonder why this matchup is so bad for you? 2x Disfigure, 3x Confidant, 3x Decay, 1x TNN are just powerhouses vs. them.
And after sideboarding it's even more in our favor i think.
Just don't keep greedy landlight hands.

+2 Strix (good)
+2 Thoughtseize (ok)
+1 Null Rod (amazing)
+1 Needle (amazing)
+1 Golgari Charm (amazing)
+1 Maelstrom Pulse (good)
+1 Dismember (good)
+1 Dread of Night (amazing)

-4 Daze (always bad i feel vs. them)
-3 Stifle (yes i know good vs. RIP, Mother, Vial, etc.)
-3 Spell Pierce (nope)

I think i would give this matchup 60/40 in our favor (with my list).
Other Delver variants are a lot more in trouble.


In trying out Bitterblossom vs. Miracles, Lands and grindy fair decks. Has anyone used it before?

Miracles is already a good matchup with the Stifle/Confidant version i feel like.
Vs. Lands i would probably give it a try!