[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hi guys!
I would like to bring BUG Delver to a big tournament Italy, then from 9 rounds, only it was a while since I played it, exactly when she left True Name Nemesis, in fact I played the list of classical Signorini, so many 4x, 2 and Stalker the sylvan library!
Now I see that the list has changed from how I remembered it! Stifle and spell pierce in place of hymn and Liliana of main! Then confidant and nemesis replace the stalker!
So the list of Signorini has become obsolete? if the answer is "yes" what would be a list ideal for testing and to lead to a big tournament?

Signorini's list is not really obsolete. People are still playing tapout style BUG Delver with Hymns and Lilianas. It's just that there have also been Stifle lists doing well recently since people are starting to play it a little more. Here are some links to recent successful lists of both variations for you to explore your options:

Traditional Tapout style: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14600&iddeck=107907

More Draw-Go with Stifle style: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105861

[spector14]

Signorini's list is not really obsolete. People are still playing tapout style BUG Delver with Hymns and Lilianas. It's just that there have also been Stifle lists doing well recently since people are starting to play it a little more. Here are some links to recent successful lists of both variations for you to explore your options:

Traditional Tapout style: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14600&iddeck=107907

More Draw-Go with Stifle style: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105861

Hi "dragonslayer"! Thanks for the answer!
So all 2 variants are strong right? But I would like to understand one thing:
What are the metagame which two lists are stronger?


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[Dragonslayer_90]

Hi "dragonslayer"! Thanks for the answer!
So all 2 variants are strong right? But I would like to understand one thing:
What are the metagame which two lists are stronger?


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The Hymn lists are generally stronger against tribal since Stifle is pretty mediocre against Merfolk and Elves. It's okay against Goblins. The Stifle lists seems naturally better against Miracles since Stifle and Dark Confidant and to an extent TNN are strong against that deck. The Stifle list also seems to be strong in the mirror since you have so many threats, more than traditional Team America lists. The Stifle lists are noticeably a little softer to TNN since you don't have a main deck answer to a resolved TNN like the Hymn lists do in Liliana. All and all, I think both lists are good in most competitive metagames. In the current general meta the stifle list might be better, but the hymn list is perfectly fine as well. Both lists offer the pilot a lot of play and customization so if you know the metagame you are going in you should be able to prepare pretty well regardless of the type of list you choose to run. At that point you might just want to ask yourself which fits your playstyle better.

[iostream]

It's also worth mentioning that you don't have to choose one or the other - there are lists that run both, which is what I personally prefer. For example:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8192&d=247191
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7959&d=245814&f=LE

[FoolofaTook]

It's also worth mentioning that you don't have to choose one or the other - there are lists that run both, which is what I personally prefer. For example:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8192&d=247191
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7959&d=245814&f=LE

It's really hard to run Hymn to Tourach and Stifle in the same list. They're both potentially dead draws late that don't do anything real to the board. Add in Daze, which is dead late most of the time and the cantrips and you have too much dead air in the list late and not enough business. Brainstorming to find a Hymn or a Stifle or a Daze usually sucks in the endgame.

[YamiJoey]

It's really hard to run Hymn to Tourach and Stifle in the same list. They're both potentially dead draws late that don't do anything real to the board. Add in Daze, which is dead late most of the time and the cantrips and you have too much dead air in the list late and not enough business. Brainstorming to find a Hymn or a Stifle or a Daze usually sucks in the endgame.

Stifle, Wasteland, and Hymn all keep your opponent on the early game, though. There is no midgame when your opponent isn't able to get past the second/third turn properly. You cast waste a lot of time in the midgame digging, as your opponent MUST find lands, and keeping an extra Stifle around at this point cuts them onto around half of their Lands, if not more, still being dead draws.

[iostream]

It's also worth noting that Stifle is a generally good utility card. It can do things besides stop fetchlands. I've stifled Stoneforge Mystic triggers, Cascade triggers, Suspend triggers, Craterhoof Behemoth triggers, etc. and been happy to do so. It is not totally dead in the late game. Hymn is also not totally dead in the late game. Everyone gets excited about the 2-for-1, but sometimes, stripping the 1 answer in their hand that they've been holding on to is enough. Moreover, if everyone is on the TC plan, it will have targets later than usual.

This argument, however, is somewhat academic now that TC is a thing. The question that is really relevant is whether running Stifle at all is worth it given how synergistic Hymn+Liliana+TC is. Diluting that even a little bit like the hybrid Stifle+Hymn lists did might just be bad now.

[spector14]

The Hymn lists are generally stronger against tribal since Stifle is pretty mediocre against Merfolk and Elves. It's okay against Goblins. The Stifle lists seems naturally better against Miracles since Stifle and Dark Confidant and to an extent TNN are strong against that deck. The Stifle list also seems to be strong in the mirror since you have so many threats, more than traditional Team America lists. The Stifle lists are noticeably a little softer to TNN since you don't have a main deck answer to a resolved TNN like the Hymn lists do in Liliana. All and all, I think both lists are good in most competitive metagames. In the current general meta the stifle list might be better, but the hymn list is perfectly fine as well. Both lists offer the pilot a lot of play and customization so if you know the metagame you are going in you should be able to prepare pretty well regardless of the type of list you choose to run. At that point you might just want to ask yourself which fits your playstyle better.



Thanks for the good answer!
I'm Very Impressed with stifle/tnn/pierce/ confi list!


Before I Tried the deck and seems really strong, has a lot of possible plays to do in the same turn!

But I do not understand A thing: what style of game we need to use? Example:

We are on the play against unknown deck:
In our hands there are shaman, stifle and spell pierce! What's the better choise to do?


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[FoolofaTook]

Stifle, Wasteland, and Hymn all keep your opponent on the early game, though. There is no midgame when your opponent isn't able to get past the second/third turn properly. You cast waste a lot of time in the midgame digging, as your opponent MUST find lands, and keeping an extra Stifle around at this point cuts them onto around half of their Lands, if not more, still being dead draws.


Stifle, Wasteland and Hymn don't do a lot to change the board in your favor when you draw them later on. Neither do any of the counters we run. The cantrips help a bit but they can also whiff for you.

3 Stifle
4 Wasteland
3 Hymn
10 counters
8 cantrips

That's 28 draws that are highly conditional late.

RUG has 4 Lightning Bolts instead of Abrupt Decay. Those bolts manage just about every creature threat that decay does with the exception of Goyf (an important exception). The bolts also finish games fairly often. They also have 2 additional burn that accentuates their reach in the mid-game.

4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
10 counters
8 cantrips

That's their 26 highly conditional late draws. When we're in Stifle and Hymn mode we're actually no better than RUG in the mid to late game. We do have 4 ways to remove Goyf and that's a pretty big deal but we also have 2 more fairly dead draws overall. We don't have the reach that RUG has with the direct damage.

When we're in that mode we're barely as good as them in the early game. Hymn is a wrecker and that's the only reason it's close. We can't kill mana dorks as well as they can. We have to tap out for Hymn, which will turn off Stifle the following turn. We can't double bolt to finish after protecting Delver for the 3 turns needed to get the opponent to death's doorstep.

This is just an opinion, but I believe that when BUG Delver tries to wreck the early game with both Stifle and Hymn it's even more of a glass cannon than RUG and it doesn't win as consistently. I believe that the value in BUG Delver is that it can potentially blow the opponent out early with a good opening grip but it has a very good mid-game to it as well. It can win once the game gets to turn 5 or 6 and the initial exchanges are over and nobody won off of them. RUG usually cannot do that.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings!

I have a short report for Legacy locals this week. The crew this week was Dragonslayer_90, btm10, and myself. There was a low turn out of 9 players this week so we had 4 rounds. I played the same list as my prior post (. I got the round 1 Bye, then won my match against Ryosuke playing 12Post (2-0), lost to btm10 playing BUG Delver (1-2), and drew with Dragonslayer_90 who was testing out a BUG Control deck (1-1-1;0-0-3). The final standings were btm10, me, and Dragonslayer_90 in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Pretty decent night for our car!

I got to (again) resolve Zur's Weirding against my 12Post opponent in the sideboarded game. This card is the real deal people. If you are expecting 12Post and/or Miracles this card makes it somewhere between very hard and impossible for them to win. I would wager it is reasonable in slower combo decks that aren't incrementally attacking your life total. So might be worth trying against Sneak and Show, Omnitell, High Tide, and other storm variants... probably not so good against decks like Burn. Otherwise the build felt good. I lost the mirror likely due to both losing the initial die roll and bricking off like a champ (drawing all the lands). btm10 cast three Dazes against me in game 1. The first countered a Hymn to Tourach the second was paid for and immediately followed by a third to counter a Tarmogoyf. So even in this 3-for-2 interaction that left me ahead on the board as far as lands, I was just never able to stick something meaningful. Oh well, we will try again next week. Thanks for reading!

[Dragonslayer_90]

Thanks for the good answer!
I'm Very Impressed with stifle/tnn/pierce/ confi list!


Before I Tried the deck and seems really strong, has a lot of possible plays to do in the same turn!

But I do not understand A thing: what style of game we need to use? Example:

We are on the play against unknown deck:
In our hands there are shaman, stifle and spell pierce! What's the better choise to do?


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In the example you gave I would play Deathrite Shaman. In the dark against an unknown opponent the best thing to do is to get a threat onto the board as quick as possible, especially Deathrite Shaman since the mana acceleration he provides is a crucial part of the tempo BUG Delver can generate. I suggest you read my primer if you already haven't. The primer is written with mostly the hymn lists in mind but it should help somewhat still even if you're looking to run a Stifle list. Other than that you'll have to do some playtesting to work out the lines of the list, though still feel free to post every now and then if you get a tough decision in a game that you played that you were unsure on how to proceed.

[spector14]

In the example you gave I would play Deathrite Shaman. In the dark against an unknown opponent the best thing to do is to get a threat onto the board as quick as possible, especially Deathrite Shaman since the mana acceleration he provides is a crucial part of the tempo BUG Delver can generate. I suggest you read my primer if you already haven't. The primer is written with mostly the hymn lists in mind but it should help somewhat still even if you're looking to run a Stifle list. Other than that you'll have to do some playtesting to work out the lines of the list, though still feel free to post every now and then if you get a tough decision in a game that you played that you were unsure on how to proceed.


Now I have finished to read the
Primer! :)

I'm testing a Lot This list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105861

But I want made some changes:

Md:

-1 ponder +1 FOW

-1 confidant +1 sylvan library

Side:

-1 fow. + library (if we don't take out 1 confidant)

-1 needle. +1 krosan

-1 divert. +1 surgical

-1 arcane laboratory. +1 flusterstorm

What you think about these changes?
Maybe we can put more graveyard's hate!




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[FoolofaTook]

18 lands and 8 cantrips is a tried and true formula for success. Even with the Sylvan you're not getting that effect because it won't help you with 1 land hands.

If you want 3 Ponder then replace the Ponder with land 19. Just my opinion.

[venice]

Hey guys! :smile:

I played another local event today going 4-0-2, 3rd place. I tryed a new maindeck configuration feat. 2 Treasure Cruise and I can only confirm what other people here already mentioned: that card is AWESOME! For those of you, who still have doubts about the card, I can only say you should give it a try. I was sceptical about it at first, too. But when you see the card in actual play scenarios you will realize how much power it adds to your mid- to lategame. Don´t be afraid of the "nombo" with DRS and Goyf which you would expect it to have. To be honest: it doesn´t even matter at all, since you always get to choose when and how to cast it.

Anyways, my MUs today where:

R1: Mirror Win 2-0
R2: Mirror Win 2-1
R3: Sneak Show ID (played a good friend of mine and since the tournament was a trial for Prague Eternal, we both opted for the possibility to go 5-0-1 to get the byes, thus we IDed)
R4: Miracles Win 2-1
R5: Miracles Draw 1-1-1
R6: Grixis Delver Win 2-1

Since I only played 2 copies of Treasure Cruise today, I got to play it only 4 times throughout the whole tournament. However, 4 times it resolved and all 4 games were consequent wins afterwards. I had 2 resolved in the Mirror Match; after trading spells/creatures 1for1 until both our resources were exhausted, drawing into TC gave me such a boost midgame, that my opponents could not keep up with (they didn´t play TC today, yet). Also against Miracles it was huge to have. I even resolved 2 Cruises in one turn... :wink:

The thing I am still unsure about is what would be the "right" cards to cut for Treasure Cruise. My list today looked like this:

Maindeck:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 True Name Nemesis
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB:

3 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Null Rod

So compared to my last built, I just switched 2 Ponder in favour of 2 Treasure Cruise. Granted, that feels a little odd at first and I am still unsure if that´s the way to go forward for me. However, cutting down on threats is honestly no option for me, since I feel that a high threat-density is what makes Treasure Cruise so valuable in the first place. Cutting down on lands is no option either since with 4 TNN, my list is pretty mana-heavy already. That leaves us with disruption and cantrips. The disruption suite is what makes Team America what it is, so I don´t see a good point in cutting cards in that section of the deck either. That logic leaves us with the only option of cutting down on cantrips. And in comparison Ponder vs Brainstorm of course favours BS...thus I cut the Ponders.

I would be really interested to see, how others, who have been advocating Cruise as well, have restructured their builts. I feel going forward, that is one of the most important questions to answer for future deckbuilding with TA, thus I am very intrigued to discuss different approaches with you guys. :smile:

[Dragonslayer_90]

What you think about these changes?
Maybe we can put more graveyard's hate!



I think the changes are alright, though I agree with FoolofaTook that if you're going to play 18 lands you should be playing a fourth ponder instead of the first sylvan library. If you want to play two Sylvan Library leave them in the sideboard. Also you don't need more graveyard hate. You have more than enough for dredge and reanimator with two cage in addition to Deathrite Shaman. That has become pretty standard with BUG Delver at least.

[FoolofaTook]

I like 1 Surgical Extraction in the sideboard. It's graveyard hate but also occasionally the possibility of a blowout win when you run into a list that is really dependent on having a particular card and has no redundancy for it. Being playable for phyrexian mana makes it an always available spell when it's in your hand.

[iostream]

Well, Bob Huang just won the NJ SCG Open with UR Delver running 4 Treasure Cruise, and commented in the postgame interview that he thinks it's an auto 4-of in every Delver variant. Hopefully this gets the discussion more focused on how we actually build the deck to maximize TC's potential rather than questioning whether it's good in the first place.

[eostby]

OK, I'll kick the discussion off with a topic that I'm kind of curious about, as I didn't get to watch too much of the coverage today: should all 4 TC be main board, or is a split of some sort better? My gut reaction is that 2 main, 2 side sounds right, but that may just be for my particular build of the deck, which hasn't incorporated any TC yet.

[rancOr_]

OK, I'll kick the discussion off with a topic that I'm kind of curious about, as I didn't get to watch too much of the coverage today: should all 4 TC be main board, or is a split of some sort better? My gut reaction is that 2 main, 2 side sounds right, but that may just be for my particular build of the deck, which hasn't incorporated any TC yet.

3 MD seemed optimal in my testing. Playing 4 in bug delver is pushing it a bit too hard IMHO and makes for some clunky draws.

[eostby]

3 MD seemed optimal in my testing. Playing 4 in bug delver is pushing it a bit too hard IMHO and makes for some clunky draws.

What did you pull from the main board to fit them in?

[ivanpei]

I would pull all spell Pierces, and maybe a ponder. Also would pull the 4th True Name since Cruises may draw you into more and True names are clunky at 3 mana.

I'm playing Uwr delver and 3 has been optimal for me. Unlike UR Delver which is hyper fast with 4 probes, other delver decks don't fill the yard as quickly.

[eostby]

I would pull all spell Pierces, and maybe a ponder. Also would pull the 4th True Name since Cruises may draw you into more and True names are clunky at 3 mana.

I'm playing Uwr delver and 3 has been optimal for me. Unlike UR Delver which is hyper fast with 4 probes, other delver decks don't fill the yard as quickly.

I'm only on one TNN as it is, so that's probably not cuttable as my 13th creature. I do like pulling the Spell Pierces and a Ponder, though.

[ivanpei]

I'm only on one TNN as it is, so that's probably not cuttable as my 13th creature. I do like pulling the Spell Pierces and a Ponder, though.

I hate spell piece in this deck. You already have hymn force and daze. Disruption overload is not great especially since this deck tries to tap out every turn. Spell piece should be the first to go, then maybe trim a ponder for the cruises 1-2 TNN should be sufficient.

[wcm8]

3 or 4 Treasure Cruise in Team America: that is the question.

To start with, let's talk about this weekend's SCG Open winning decklist that ran the full playset. Consider how Bob Huang's UR Delver list functioned: 12 threats, 17 lands, and a TON of cards that he can play in quick succession to fill the graveyard faster than any deck aside from Dredge-types. Gitaxian Probe is a card that is worth running in his deck for several reasons: its information is useful, UR is ALWAYS the beatdown so 2-life is generally irrelevant, and beyond fueling TC it also powers up Pyromancer and Monastery Swiftspear. But it's not something that I'd personally find worth running in BUG just to help fuel Treasure Cruise.

BUG Delver is playing much more midrangey strategy. Yes, we will end up with many cards in the graveyard, but not nearly at the same pace as Bob's UR deck. We have a higher curve, 3 colors and run Wasteland, so 19 lands is about the lowest amount we can justify running. Many of our cards are slower and/or more situational. For example, we can't just fling Abrupt Decay to the face for 3 damage. This leads me to believe that running only 3 copies of Treasure Cruise is probably more realistic in this deck. It also seems that way in testing, where Cruise gets stranded slightly more often than playtesting with UR or UWr Delver.

My basic proposed list:

20 lands
4/4/4 delver/DRS/goyf
4/4 ponder/bstorm
4/4 FoW/daze
4/2 abrupt decay/liliana
3 TCruise
3 Hymn

Alternatively, you could cut a land and play 4 Thoughtseize instead of Hymn as your discard option. But I still see Hymn being the superior card outside of metagames with a lot of combo and Stoneforge decks. You could also play around with running additional removal, utility, or threats in this area. Or just get greedy, cut the 20th land and run the full playset of Hymn.

I also liked the new tech of Sultai Charm as a singleton in the maindeck in one of the top 8 BUG lists. Having a maindeck out to troublesome permanents is always welcome, and at worst it becomes an expensive cantrip. A lot of people were saying that this card was just a worse Maelstrom Pulse, but really I think it actually gains a lot from being an Instant and having the added cantrip mode. I think it is possibly a little better than Dimir Charm which is another random singleton that has been seeing some occasionally play, but making a cut for one of these cards is difficult. I *guess* one could consider cutting a Tarmogoyf, a discard spell, the 20th land, or possibly a Ponder. The full playset of Daze, FoW, and Wasteland aren't sacred cows either.

I think Notion Thief might be something worth considering bringing back to the sideboard. He's pretty good against a lot of decks already, but with the inevitable rise of Cruise, his ability is backbreaking. It's also really great against UWr Miracles and Shardless BUG. (As a pointless aside, 4 Mana is understandable, but it's a card I really wish they would have printed at 3 mana as a 2/1.)

Sylvan Library should probably be a sideboard card now to bring in against decks like Miracles, Stoneblade, and certain forms of combo and midrange. Cruise seems to fulfill its maindeck function a bit better going in blindly, so Library can just come in where it's really powerful.

I think that UR is going to become a lot more popular since it seems geared to be one of the best shells to run TCruise in, and also has the best spell to fight TCruise itself (REB/Pyroblast). In the BUG sideboard I would want to run a fair share of Disfigure, Golgari Charm (for Pyromancer and his friends), and possibly consider a Zuran orb or other life-gaining device -- maybe a Jitte? Watch out for Blood Moon as well. This sort of matchup is always pretty close, but I'd say BUG is definitely unfavored in game 1. Luckily though, they have so few threats that we can generally match them with our removal, Goyf trumps their creatures, and Hymn and a well-timed Wasteland are particular powerful .

[iostream]

20 lands
4/4/4 delver/DRS/goyf
4/4 ponder/bstorm
4/4 FoW/daze
4/2 abrupt decay/liliana
3 TCruise
3 Hymn

This is actually the exact 60 I ran at the Open yesterday. It performed quite well, but I made terrible blunders in 3 different matches. If I did not leave my brain at home yesterday, I think things would have worked out better. It's certainly a good starting point



I also liked the new tech of Sultai Charm as a singleton in the maindeck in one of the top 8 BUG lists. Having a maindeck out to troublesome permanents is always welcome, and at worst it becomes an expensive cantrip. A lot of people were saying that this card was just a worse Maelstrom Pulse, but really I think it actually gains a lot from being an Instant and having the added cantrip mode. I think it is possibly a little better than Dimir Charm which is another random singleton that has been seeing some occasionally play, but making a cut for one of these cards is difficult. I *guess* one could consider cutting a Tarmogoyf, a discard spell, the 20th land, or possibly a Ponder. The full playset of Daze, FoW, and Wasteland aren't sacred cows either.

Mann (who ran this) said in his top 8 interview that Sultai Charm was garbage for him all day and that he sided it out every single game 2. I think we should be skeptical.


I think Notion Thief might be something worth considering bringing back to the sideboard. He's pretty good against a lot of decks already, but with the inevitable rise of Cruise, his ability is backbreaking. It's also really great against UWr Miracles and Shardless BUG. (As a pointless aside, 4 Mana is understandable, but it's a card I really wish they would have printed at 3 mana as a 2/1.)

This sounds a little tricky - how often do we have 4 mana up on our opponent's turn? We tap out quite a lot in the early and mid-game. It seems to me that Thief can't consistently hit our opponent's first Cruise - maybe it can stop late-game Cruises, though. I'm not sure if it's worth a slot.


Sylvan Library should probably be a sideboard card now to bring in against decks like Miracles, Stoneblade, and certain forms of combo and midrange. Cruise seems to fulfill its maindeck function a bit better going in blindly, so Library can just come in where it's really powerful.

Do we need an effect like Library at all given how strong Cruise is? I think Cruise gives us enough card advantage that we can use that sideboard slot for something else.


I think that UR is going to become a lot more popular since it seems geared to be one of the best shells to run TCruise in, and also has the best spell to fight TCruise itself (REB/Pyroblast). In the BUG sideboard I would want to run a fair share of Disfigure, Golgari Charm (for Pyromancer and his friends), and possibly consider a Zuran orb or other life-gaining device -- maybe a Jitte? Watch out for Blood Moon as well. This sort of matchup is always pretty close, but I'd say BUG is definitely unfavored in game 1. Luckily though, they have so few threats that we can generally match them with our removal, Goyf trumps their creatures, and Hymn and a well-timed Wasteland are particular powerful .
Agreed. If you haven't been packing at least 2 Disfigure and 2 Charm, now is the time to start. Zuran Orb is a fun idea given that it is free, and it allows us to turn our redundant lands into more Cruise food. I like the Orb idea better than Jitte since the decks Jitte would be strongest against (besides UR) are the Jitte decks themselves (like Merfolk, Death and Taxes, etc) - Null Rod and Pithing Needle are extremely powerful versus these decks, and it would feel bad to nonbo yourself.

I'll note that Punishing Fire and Life From The Loam are also natural responses to an increase in Delver decks and so it might be worth packing a little extra hate for that, too. Diversifying the graveyard hate to include a Surgical Extraction or a Nihil Spellbomb would be helpful. Diabolic Edict isn't bad either here, as many such decks run the Depths/Stage combo. It would obviously be reasonable to side in versus Sneak/Show.

[Sturtzilla]

wcm8, I was going to post my opinions to the above comments. You however beat me to it. I think your analysis on both UR Delver and BUG Delver is spot on. We cannot fill the graveyard as quickly and running cards to do that dilutes the power of our deck. I really like the look of your proposed list. I think it is lean and a good starting point to rigorously test Treasure Cruise. The problem with running only one or two being you may not draw them enough to gauge accurately if it is good or not. I am probably going to give your list a try tomorrow night at locals.

An additional thought, Sultai Charm is really a four-mode card, as it has Naturalize as a mode. It is going to destroy basically every non-Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Deathrite Shaman, and/or Bloodbraid Elf creature played. The second mode destroys two types of permanents which is nice. And as you mentioned worst case scenario it is a 3-mana instant speed cantrip. It also pitches to Force... so there is that too. I agree that it might be worth having as a one-of somewhere.

[wcm8]

An additional thought, Sultai Charm is really a four-mode card, as it has Naturalize as a mode. It is going to destroy basically every non-Shardless Agent, Baleful Strix, Deathrite Shaman, and/or Bloodbraid Elf creature played. The second mode destroys two types of permanents which is nice. And as you mentioned worst case scenario it is a 3-mana instant speed cantrip. It also pitches to Force... so there is that too. I agree that it might be worth having as a one-of somewhere.

Well, as iostream pointed out, the top 8 BUG pilot who ran it actually said Sultai Charm was garbage and it got sided out every g2. So maybe it being a 3cmc spell is bad enough to just forget about running the card. There are certainly other cards I'd be considering as singletons, and pretty high on the list is Vendi Clique as the 13th threat and added disruption/personal card filter.

Regarding Sylvan Library: maybe it isn't worth the sideboard slot, but the card *is* nuts against anything packing Swords to Plowshares and durdly combo/control. Since STP decks will also likely bringing in Rest in Peace to null your Cruises/creatures, Library is justifiably still a strong option. I agree though, room is an issue, and I personally like to run 1 Jace TMS in the SB for those sort of matchups.

edit: Sultai Charm actually DOES kill Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix, seeing as they are artifacts. :cool:

[Sturtzilla]

Well, as iostream pointed out, the top 8 BUG pilot who ran it actually said Sultai Charm was garbage and it got sided out every g2. So maybe it being a 3cmc spell is bad enough to just forget about running the card. There are certainly other cards I'd be considering as singletons, and pretty high on the list is Vendi Clique as the 13th threat and added disruption/personal card filter.

edit: Sultai Charm actually DOES kill Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix, seeing as they are artifacts. :cool:

Yea I think maybe as a one-of in the board it might be worth trying out. I had only been considering the primary mode for creature destruction. You are correct that the second mode catches two of the four creatures that I listed. So really it is a pretty solid all around spell. The fact that it has a cmc of three might make it a touch sluggish. I don't think I would want it in the main.... but it certainly fills a number of rolls that we may want access to in the board.

[spector14]

18 lands and 8 cantrips is a tried and true formula for success. Even with the Sylvan you're not getting that effect because it won't help you with 1 land hands.

If you want 3 Ponder then replace the Ponder with land 19. Just my opinion.


I think the changes are alright, though I agree with FoolofaTook that if you're going to play 18 lands you should be playing a fourth ponder instead of the first sylvan library. If you want to play two Sylvan Library leave them in the sideboard. Also you don't need more graveyard hate. You have more than enough for dredge and reanimator with two cage in addition to Deathrite Shaman. That has become pretty standard with BUG Delver at least.

Thanks for your answers.
I think that will cut the third spell pierce.

About TC, I think 2 is the correct number, because unlike UR, we have 8 cards that have synergy with our graveyard!
having said that, a good configuration of the deck to be tested could be this:

Creatures [14]
2 True Name-Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [21]
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze


Sorceries [6]
4 Ponder
2 TC

Lands [19]
1 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

[eostby]

I think I've found a way to fit the Treasure Cruise package into my already existing build, but I may be trying to hard to force the new tech in.

My updated list:

Lands - 20
4 USea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
4 Wasteland
3/3/3 Fetches

Creatures - 13
4 DRS
4 Delver
3 Goyf
1 TNN
1 V-Clique

Sorceries - 10
4 Hymn
3 Ponder
3 TC

Instants - 16
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm

Planeswalker - 1
1 Liliana

Sideboard:
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Golgari Charm
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Stream of Unconsciousness (I know, I'm going way too deep on this one, but I want to give it a try as the 8th power for Goyfs)
1x Sylvan Library
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Treasure Cruise

What I changed
To get to this from my previous iteration of the list, I moved a Goyf and the Library to the board and cut a Ponder main, 2 Spell Pierces and a Thoughtseize from the side, and split 3-1 on the Treasure Cruises. I haven't gotten to test this yet, but it feels fine as a starting point.

[ivanpei]

I feel only UR Delver can support the full playset of 4. BUG and Patriot are more mid rangy and cannot fill the yard as fast. When I have cruise in my opening hand I find that bug/uwr can cast it earliest around turn 4 while UR Delver can cast it turn 3 sometimes since they dump cards at amazing speed. Having 2 Cruises in opening hand means you have 2 cards doing nothing till turn 4. This is unacceptable in such a fast format.

[spector14]

I feel only UR Delver can support the full playset of 4. BUG and Patriot are more mid rangy and cannot fill the yard as fast. When I have cruise in my opening hand I find that bug/uwr can cast it earliest around turn 4 while UR Delver can cast it turn 3 sometimes since they dump cards at amazing speed. Having 2 Cruises in opening hand means you have 2 cards doing nothing till turn 4. This is unacceptable in such a fast format.

[btm10]

Yea I think maybe as a one-of in the board it might be worth trying out. I had only been considering the primary mode for creature destruction. You are correct that the second mode catches two of the four creatures that I listed. So really it is a pretty solid all around spell. The fact that it has a cmc of three might make it a touch sluggish. I don't think I would want it in the main.... but it certainly fills a number of rolls that we may want access to in the board.

I know I mentioned this when we talked earlier today, but I'm going to restate it for more general consumption - I think that while Sultai Charm has a lot of utility, especially because of the loot mode, it's fighting for a board slot with Maelstrom Pulse and that Pulse's key difference here is that it can destroy Planeswalkers. BUG Charm can fight them on the stack, but once a non-Abrupt Decay-able Planeswalker (say, I dunno, Jace) has resolved, you're stuck wasting a combat or two killing it (unless you can just kill your opponent). I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but I think I'd rather have Pulse if it came down to Charm vs. Pulse.

[CorpT]

I know I mentioned this when we talked earlier today, but I'm going to restate it for more general consumption - I think that while Sultai Charm has a lot of utility, especially because of the loot mode, it's fighting for a board slot with Maelstrom Pulse and that Pulse's key difference here is that it can destroy Planeswalkers. BUG Charm can fight them on the stack, but once a non-Abrupt Decay-able Planeswalker (say, I dunno, Jace) has resolved, you're stuck wasting a combat or two killing it (unless you can just kill your opponent). I'm open to being persuaded otherwise, but I think I'd rather have Pulse if it came down to Charm vs. Pulse.

Sultai Charm is blue and an instant and which are not irrelevant. I played it some today and it was ok. Not amazing, but not terrible. Might be better off as a 3rd Treasure Cruise though.

[AngryTroll]

Don't forget that Sultai Charm competes with both Maelstrom Pulse and Putrefy. If anyone is running a miser's Putrefy, Charm is probably an upgrade. If anyone is running a Pulse in the maindeck, I could easily see testing Charm. On the other hand, at least in my deck, I run Pulse in the board as an answer to Jaces and Angel tokens in addition to a flexible removal spell for creatures and equipment. Charm doesn't fill the same roles, so it won't replace Pulse in my board.

Finally, with this third mode instead of it's current awful mode, Dimir Charm would have been awesome and I'd definitely play at least one.

[FoolofaTook]

Sultai Charm is blue and an instant and which are not irrelevant. I played it some today and it was ok. Not amazing, but not terrible. Might be better off as a 3rd Treasure Cruise though.

I doubt it. I've been working some number of Treasure Cruise into lists and it's just a bear to play alongside Goyf and DRS. You have to play DRS to manage the opponent's GY. There's just no question there even if DRS wasn't one of the best pieces of acceleration in Legacy at this point alongside his other fine qualities.

I'm playing against Uwr Aggro last night and I have Treasure Cruise in the hand and I'm staring at a board with Goyf on my side and a flipped Delver on his and I really want to delve for TC but it's going to cost me a 4/5 Goyf going to 2/3 or worse. My DRS was hitting his GY from turn 2 on and then he delved for TC on turn 4 and I countered it so there is just a Sorcery in his GY at the moment. I have Ponder, Counterspell, Polluted Delta x2, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in my GY and 3 mana on the board. I have TC, Goyf, Repeal and an Island (just drew it) in hand. The catch is it's 11-6 in his favor and I have no idea if he has Force of Will at this point. We both hit each other once after his failed delve and I don't know if he sandbagged the Force of Will on his delve to protect his win-con.

So I'm staring at a 4/5 Goyf and delving for TC is going to make him smaller. I have another Goyf ready to replace him but the Delver on the other side is going to do me in two turns. I have several potential outs, including the Repeal in my hand, which is cheap to cast on the flipped Delver and will draw me a card, and of course I have TC which will draw me 3 whenever I can afford to shrink the Goyfs for a turn or 2. It's going to cost me a near tap out to do all of that and he's playing red with 1 bolt and 1 Price of Progress already played but no other damage spells seen yet.

I attack with the Goyf to get him down to 7 and then drop the Island, hold my breath and delve Ponder, Counterspell, Polluted Delta x2, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay and tap 2 to play Treasure Cruise. I delved the whole yard because I needed to keep 2 mana up for the Repeal to get it through a Daze if necessary. I also really wanted to bluff a Counterspell in case he bolted or PoP'd in response to my TC. My Goyf is now 1/2 with just a Sorcery in each GY. He does come over the top with a Force of Will and the Goyf goes to 2/3, which it would have been a second later anyway because I Repeal his Delver and draw a card, which is Treasure Cruise...

It turned into a loss in the end in which neither side successfully resolved TC and my Goyfs were little dudes in the end game. I'm ready to try Treasure Hunt instead of Treasure Cruise at this point. It'll get me by bad pockets of land in the mid-game and it will replace it self with another non-land card and it won't shrink my Goyfs.

BTW, I fully accept that there's been a change in the card advantage equation. You can't not react to the presence of Treasure Cruise in the meta. You'll die to worse lists that draw it against you at a bad time anyway. My reaction so far is 2 Counterspells main list, 2 Repeals (draws a card) main list as removal and the knowledge that I need even more card advantage to maintain parity. If I really want to keep playing Goyf it can't be Treasure Cruise though, hence the plan to look at Treasure Hunt.

[CorpT]

I have Counterspell, Repeal and an Island

....


I'm ready to try Treasure Hunt instead of Treasure Cruise at this point. It'll get me by bad pockets of land in the mid-game and it will replace it self with another non-land card and it won't shrink my Goyfs.

I'd start by getting rid of those pretty weak cards first. They're more likely why you're losing than shrinking a Goyf.

[iostream]

I'd start by getting rid of those pretty weak cards first. They're more likely why you're losing than shrinking a Goyf.
++, I nearly spit out my coffee when I saw Repeal.

Just as a note, I think for those who have not tried Cruise before, it's probably a good idea to start with the list wcm8 proposed and make changes from there after you've played a good number of games with it. For reference:

Lands (20)
9 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures (12)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (28)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Liliana of the Veil

I have found this to be pretty rock solid.

[FoolofaTook]

....



I'd start by getting rid of those pretty weak cards first. They're more likely why you're losing than shrinking a Goyf.

Repeal is a cantrip that puts a permanent back in the opponent's hand. The difference between a flipped Delver or a Goblin Guide not hitting you on turn 2 after you've gotten a look at the top of your library is kind of real.

The big advantage though is that it effects the board without losing you a card in the process. One perfect example is when your opponent bolts, plows or Abrupt Decays a DRS or Delver. That's the card back in your hand plus a draw and the opponent having traded 1-for-1 on the cards that accomplished that. How come you guys think that delving your GY for +2 cards is great and blocking the opponent's attempt to remove for +2 cards is not? In a list with big permanents Repeal would kind of suck but in this list in this meta it's not a bad card at all. It also bounces tokens, even big ones like Marit Lage, for a profit.

I get that it's bounce, but look at what it actually does and for how much cost.

[btm10]

Repeal is a cantrip that puts a permanent back in the opponent's hand. The difference between a flipped Delver or a Goblin Guide not hitting you on turn 2 after you've gotten a look at the top of your library is kind of real.

The big advantage though is that it effects the board without losing you a card in the process. One perfect example is when your opponent bolts, plows or Abrupt Decays a DRS or Delver. That's the card back in your hand plus a draw and the opponent having traded 1-for-1 on the cards that accomplished that. How come you guys think that delving your GY for +2 cards is great and blocking the opponent's attempt to remove for +2 cards is not? In a list with big permanents Repeal would kind of suck but in this list in this meta it's not a bad card at all. It also bounces tokens, even big ones like Marit Lage, for a profit.

I get that it's bounce, but look at what it actually does and for how much cost.

We have other answers to Marit Lage that are better than Repeal. If Stage/Depths is a concern in your meta, I'd be running some number of Needles in the board. If you want removal for it, Diabolic Edict is far less situational and usually cheaper despite not being able to answer noncreature permanents.


Sultai Charm is blue and an instant and which are not irrelevant. I played it some today and it was ok. Not amazing, but not terrible. Might be better off as a 3rd Treasure Cruise though.

Blue and instant aren't irrelevant, but they aren't everything, either. I think that on balance I'd rather have Pulse first because it can destroy Planeswalkers, second because it's less color intensive, and third because it's a good out to Entreat.



Finally, with this third mode instead of it's current awful mode, Dimir Charm would have been awesome and I'd definitely play at least one.

Obviously I agree with you on Pulse, but I've gotten a ton of mileage out of Dimir Charm. It's a very flexible piece of removal (Goyf and flipped Delvers are the only commonly encountered creatures it doesn't kill) and an answer to lots of relevant spells like Show and Tell, Hymn, Terminus, Maelstrom Pulse, Ancestral Vision, Treasure Cruise, and Entreat.

[FoolofaTook]

Diabolic Edict is much more conditional than Repeal. You don't get to choose which creature the opponent sacs, so you really only tune it in when it's going to be a one creature proposition.

Repeal lets you put the thing you need to have off the board back in their hand before you Thoughtseize, Hymn, wait on it with a counter, etc. It supplies a draw that could even be the card you need to completely resolve the situation, assuming you don't already have the answer in hand, just no way for it to effect the board, since discard and counters don't effect the board at all.

There are so many early plays against BUG that are just highly destructive to our position since we tend to tap out early on. Having a way to deal with them after the fact aside from Abrupt Decay is a good thing.

I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight. Treasure Cruise is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of RUG that will force them to find adaptations to remain a tier list. It's just as bad against BUG despite DRS being one of the better solutions for it. We don't have the escape of access to red to adapt. No Nimble Mongoose for Young Pyromancer adaptations for us. No main list REB's if this truly turns into a TC meta. No REB's from the sideboard otherwise.

- Goyf is not the powerhouse he was if we're looking to delve.

- Our draws are not as consistent as they were if we're playing 3 or 4 TC.

- The opponent's ability to recover from a turn 2 Hymn has been amplified.

If we take TC out of their hand, well that was an unwieldy early turn asset anyway. If we miss it, well they're a bit closer to recovery by casting TC earlier to regain hand position.

- Two other Delver lists Uwr and UR have become much stronger with no adverse side effects. They actually get to shrink our Goyfs and deprive our DRS of what it most wants at the moment.

- Liliana, who was a good asset now becomes more unwieldy to use although likely still a good asset.

The adaptations that BUG is going to have to find revolve around lessening the dependency we have on the GY so that TC becomes just a huge plus card or downplaying TC and finding other methods of gaining card advantage to keep up with Uwr and UR.

Tarmogoyf and Treasure Cruise <> synergy. That has to be obvious to everybody at this point. Powerful cards that do not share synergy tend to be glittery junk.

[CorpT]

Tarmogoyf and Treasure Cruise <> synergy. That has to be obvious to everybody at this point. Powerful cards that do not share synergy tend to be glittery junk.

Like Goyf and DRS together in the same deck?


I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight.

And the answer to a changing meta is not to run bad cards like Repeall. It doesn't sound like I'm going to convince you that Repeal should not be played, and you're not going to convince me that it should be played.

[FoolofaTook]

Like Goyf and DRS together in the same deck?

If DRS took 5+ cards out of the GY when activated and could only take from our GY you would have a point. Of course if that were the case we probably wouldn't be playing one of DRS or Goyf.

TC takes GY's down to a collective 3 or 4 cards by turn 4 many games. Goyf just isn't going to be good enough in that environment. If we're delving alongside the opponent Goyf is probably going to have to go. I've got 6 matches since Friday that tell me pretty conclusively that Goyf is now a 2/3 or 3/4 in the mid game most of the time. This is because I've been delving alongside the opponent. Step 1 in trying to fix this is going to be finding ways to get CA without delving. Step 2 is going to have to be finding a better answer than Goyf and if that is not possible probably abandoning green to look at Grixis.


And the answer to a changing meta is not to run bad cards like Repeall. It doesn't sound like I'm going to convince you that Repeal should not be played, and you're not going to convince me that it should be played.

I get that you aren't going to change your mind at the moment. That's understandable. When I went looking for additional card advantage Sunday morning the idea of including bounce was far from my mind. Repeal went in as a 2-of experimentally to be Abrupt Decay 5-6 and an additional cantrip. I realized after I played a match that it wasn't as bad as it seemed, not by a longshot. It reactivates cards in our hand that have gone past their expiration date like Thoughtseize and Hymn. It doesn't cost us a card to do this.

It's an instant that can save our assets and go +2 vs the opponent in the process. They thought they were trading removal for our asset, and removal is a precious thing late game. Instead they traded their removal for Repeal and we got both an additional card and to replay the thing they were trying to remove. If they're trying to remove a blocker to kill us then we let them and put their attacker back in hand, gaining a turn and and additional card to potentially deal with it. Obviously if this was Repeal instead of Abrupt Decay that would be a horrible trade off for us but the Repeals are decays 5-6, they don't replace the first 4 they supplement them.

Play some in this meta and see if additional disruption + a card doesn't seem right to you. Maybe your experience will be different but it's not like Repeal is just a bounce spell.

[tescrin]

I still don't get how a deck that used Tombstalker + Goyf is arguing at all about TC + Goyf; it's the same thing but easier to cast and significantly better (most of the time.)

[btm10]

Diabolic Edict is much more conditional than Repeal. You don't get to choose which creature the opponent sacs, so you really only tune it in when it's going to be a one creature proposition.

Repeal lets you put the thing you need to have off the board back in their hand before you Thoughtseize, Hymn, wait on it with a counter, etc. It supplies a draw that could even be the card you need to completely resolve the situation, assuming you don't already have the answer in hand, just no way for it to effect the board, since discard and counters don't effect the board at all.

There are so many early plays against BUG that are just highly destructive to our position since we tend to tap out early on. Having a way to deal with them after the fact aside from Abrupt Decay is a good thing.

I get that people aren't going to understand this right now but this meta has become very hostile to BUG and RUG overnight. Treasure Cruise is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of RUG that will force them to find adaptations to remain a tier list. It's just as bad against BUG despite DRS being one of the better solutions for it. We don't have the escape of access to red to adapt. No Nimble Mongoose for Young Pyromancer adaptations for us. No main list REB's if this truly turns into a TC meta. No REB's from the sideboard otherwise.

- Goyf is not the powerhouse he was if we're looking to delve.

- Our draws are not as consistent as they were if we're playing 3 or 4 TC.

- The opponent's ability to recover from a turn 2 Hymn has been amplified.

If we take TC out of their hand, well that was an unwieldy early turn asset anyway. If we miss it, well they're a bit closer to recovery by casting TC earlier to regain hand position.

- Two other Delver lists Uwr and UR have become much stronger with no adverse side effects. They actually get to shrink our Goyfs and deprive our DRS of what it most wants at the moment.

- Liliana, who was a good asset now becomes more unwieldy to use although likely still a good asset.

The adaptations that BUG is going to have to find revolve around lessening the dependency we have on the GY so that TC becomes just a huge plus card or downplaying TC and finding other methods of gaining card advantage to keep up with Uwr and UR.

Tarmogoyf and Treasure Cruise <> synergy. That has to be obvious to everybody at this point. Powerful cards that do not share synergy tend to be glittery junk.

You sound like someone who hasn't played with Cruise, or has played with it with too many awkward cards. It's fine with Goyf; I've never shrunk mine by (net) more than a single power precombat. You occasionally have to make a decision about whether to Delve now or Delve later, but that's a decision that will become routine soon enough.

I'm not scared of UWR Delver with Cruise at all. It was a favorable matchup already, and I see no reason to expect it to do anything but remain favorable. UR did get better, but I don't see UR as a major BUG predator, especially if the list that emerges doesn't run Price of Progress. We've still got plenty of tools for that matchup.

On Repeal - the number of permanents that can be profitably answered with Repeal is pretty small. It can answer tokens for U, but we have answers a plenty for tokens with Decay, and there are far better answers to Marit Lage. It's not an answer to opposing Goyfs except in corner cases where it lets you push through a lethal attack, and in that case I'll take my chances with more versatile answers. Unlike Diabolic Edict - a card I don't think needs a slot unless you've got tons of Reanimator, Stage/Depths, 12Post, and Sneak and Show in your meta - it can't answer TNN or Nimble Mongoose at all, and as a practical matter it can't answer Planeswalkers or any Artifact or Enchatment that isn't better handled by Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, or Maelstrom Pulse. It's a fine card in 12Post where making 5-6 mana is trivial and the whole point is to buy time. We need cards that are real answers or kill our opponent and Repeal helps neither plan.

EDIT:


I still don't get how a deck that used Tombstalker + Goyf is arguing at all about TC + Goyf; it's the same thing but easier to cast and significantly better (most of the time.)

This.

[FoolofaTook]

I still don't get how a deck that used Tombstalker + Goyf is arguing at all about TC + Goyf; it's the same thing but easier to cast and significantly better (most of the time.)

The opponent wasn't delving also. The Tombstalker on the board was better than the Goyf in the hand, since he had evasion. Didn't get hit by Abrupt Decay either.

It's not the same thing at all. The GY is now a major resource in the meta and not in the passive way that it used to be. Goyfs just aren't going to be as big as they used to be. BUG and RUG can still keep them big by not delving and controlling opposing DRS but that's kind of what you need to do.

I didn't have a 5/6 Goyf all weekend. Not a single time.

[KobeBryan]

Seems like eveyrone and their mom is running more than 3 TC's

The graveyard will be one empty place now.

Goyf may not even be a good creature anymore.

[KobeBryan]

The opponent wasn't delving also. The Tombstalker on the board was better than the Goyf in the hand, since he had evasion. Didn't get hit by Abrupt Decay either.

It's not the same thing at all. The GY is now a major resource in the meta and not in the passive way that it used to be. Goyfs just aren't going to be as big as they used to be. BUG and RUG can still keep them big by not delving and controlling opposing DRS but that's kind of what you need to do.

I didn't have a 5/6 Goyf all weekend. Not a single time.

5/6 goyf is not the easiest to achieve.

4/5 goyf is probably the most common.

[theBloody]

Time to include some Envelops to board?

[FoolofaTook]

On Repeal - the number of permanents that can be profitably answered with Repeal is pretty small. It can answer tokens for U, but we have answers a plenty for tokens with Decay, and there are far better answers to Marit Lage. It's not an answer to opposing Goyfs except in corner cases where it lets you push through a lethal attack, and in that case I'll take my chances with more versatile answers. Unlike Diabolic Edict - a card I don't think needs a slot unless you've got tons of Reanimator, Stage/Depths, 12Post, and Sneak and Show in your meta - it can't answer TNN or Nimble Mongoose at all, and as a practical matter it can't answer Planeswalkers or any Artifact or Enchatment that isn't better handled by Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, or Maelstrom Pulse. It's a fine card in 12Post where making 5-6 mana is trivial and the whole point is to buy time. We need cards that are real answers or kill our opponent and Repeal helps neither plan.

Permanents that Repeal manages well: Delver, DRS, Goyf, Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant (+1 card, the one they'd have seen on their upkeep), Aether Vial, Mom, Elf dork on the play (anything to slow them down and draw into the sweeper after game 1 when I'm on the play about 75% of the time), basically any 1cc permanent, most 2cc permanents not in D&T, all tokens not hexproofed and the very occasional bigger permanent at a swingy point in the game (this always a card that Abrupt Decay is dead against.)

Then of course it manages ALL of your own permanents well except for Goyf under D&T or Liliana if she's in.

It does not manage Nimble Mongoose and Sensei's Divining Top. One of those cards is no longer playable in Legacy as we'll soon see.

[KobeBryan]

Time to include some Envelops to board?

you mean you didn't?

[FoolofaTook]

5/6 goyf is not the easiest to achieve.

4/5 goyf is probably the most common.

5/6 Goyf has always been easy for me in lists with Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay. 4/5 is turn 3 maybe 4 at the outside. After that he beats big unless their list has no Planeswalkers, artifacts or enchantments, a rare situation these days.

[FoolofaTook]

Seems like eveyrone and their mom is running more than 3 TC's

The graveyard will be one empty place now.

Goyf may not even be a good creature anymore.

If you're playing Goyf and delving the odds are pretty good that he's nowhere near as good as he used to be.

Synergy is one of the huge keys in constructed Magic. Goyf and TC have no synergy and TC actually works against Goyf because just when you want a big creature you also want extra cards to protect him and finish the opponent off with. The price of those extra cards is shrinking your Goyf. So you attack with him and then shrink him.

[KobeBryan]

If you're playing Goyf and delving the odds are pretty good that he's nowhere near as good as he used to be.

Synergy is one of the huge keys in constructed Magic. Goyf and TC have no synergy and TC actually works against Goyf because just when you want a big creature you also want extra cards to protect him and finish the opponent off with. The price of those extra cards is shrinking your Goyf. So you attack with him and then shrink him.

What are you trying to say? I thought you were a proponent of the TC.

I always said earlier before the card released that Goyf and DRS do not go with TC

[FoolofaTook]

you mean you didn't?

Was always Spell Snare for me because it caught Hymn, PoP, Thalia, Goyf, Bob, Counterbalance, Eidolon (for a short glorious period), etc.

Now it will have to be Envelop, which catches only Hymn but also I guess Thoughtseize, Glimpse of Nature and Chain Lightning as a bonus. It's going to suck when PoP lands on me though. TC is making real changes across the meta.

[KobeBryan]

Was always Spell Snare for me because it caught Hymn, PoP, Thalia, Goyf, Bob, Counterbalance, Eidolon (for a short glorious period), etc.

Now it will have to be Envelop, which catches only Hymn but also I guess Thoughtseize, Glimpse of Nature and Chain Lightning as a bonus. It's going to suck when PoP lands on me though. TC is making real changes across the meta.

If you are playing a burn deck game one, game 2, you need to adjust and watch for POP. They don't have wastelands, so you need to play it slow, like max at 2 lands, then a 3rd land, but it should be a wasteland.

Just slow down your play when you play against burn. You are not BUG shardless and need 4-5 lands in play.

[FoolofaTook]

What are you trying to say? I thought you were a proponent of the TC.

I always said earlier before the card released that Goyf and DRS do not go with TC

No, I thought TC was going to be too hostile to a bunch of lists to see wide play. I tested with 3 and wound up with 1 or 2 experimentally. The problem is that it makes UR Delver, and maybe Uwr Delver the best aggro lists in the meta. Not the best Delver lists, the best aggro lists. It probably does absolutely disgusting things to Miracles as well although I avoided that trauma this weekend.

When I was testing it Goyf was impacted but not in a huge way. Then this weekend many games came down to the choice between keeping him big and keeping up with the Joneses in terms of card advantage. Everybody was playing blue this weekend. It was an all-blue meta.

The funny thing is that the game where the opponent tried to resolve two Treasure Cruises and I tried to resolve none was a big walkover win in my favor. Countered the first one and didn't care about the second because he tapped out for it and I still had a counter and removal in hand and the bigger board.

[KobeBryan]

No, I thought TC was going to be too hostile to a bunch of lists to see wide play. I tested with 3 and wound up with 1 or 2 experimentally. The problem is that it makes UR Delver, and maybe Uwr Delver the best aggro lists in the meta. Not the best Delver lists, the best aggro lists. It probably does absolutely disgusting things to Miracles as well although I avoided that trauma this weekend.

When I was testing it Goyf was impacted but not in a huge way. Then this weekend many games came down to the choice between keeping him big and keeping up with the Joneses in terms of card advantage. Everybody was playing blue this weekend. It was an all-blue meta.

The funny thing is that the game where the opponent tried to resolve two Treasure Cruises and I tried to resolve none was a big walkover win in my favor. Countered the first one and didn't care about the second because he tapped out for it and I still had a counter and removal in hand and the bigger board.

I actually agree with you. I don't believe TC belongs in every Delver deck as a 4 of...contrary to Akatsuki.


I stated earlier that TC will make UR, omnitell, miracles, UWR the top decks of the format.

[FoolofaTook]

I actually agree with you. I don't believe TC belongs in every Delver deck as a 4 of...contrary to Akatsuki.


I stated earlier that TC will make UR, omnitell, miracles, UWR the top decks of the format.

If BUG Delver requires 4 TC then I'm going to go play 4 TC in UR or Grixis instead. There's walking uphill and then there's walking uphill dragging heavy baggage behind you and Goyf is going to be heavy baggage if we can't figure out other forms of CA that are cost effective.

[theBloody]

you mean you didn't?

What I meant was to include multiples. Not just one of.

[eostby]

If BUG Delver requires 4 TC then I'm going to go play 4 TC in UR or Grixis instead. There's walking uphill and then there's walking uphill dragging heavy baggage behind you and Goyf is going to be heavy baggage if we can't figure out other forms of CA that are cost effective.

I can't believe that 4 TC is going to be a requirement in BUG going forward. Some people are going to try 4 for a while, but I have to believe that it won't be a consensus for a while how many is correct to play.

Also, let's remember that this is week 1 of TC being Legacy legal. Week 1. It's waaaaaay too early to say TC is going to take BUG out of Tier 1 discussion. Miracles being dominant for a solid month or so didn't do it, and everything I heard said Miracles preyed heavily on us. Maybe TC will do it eventually, but 1 week at the top isn't gonna do it.

Back to reasonable discussion: I've been testing a bit with the list I posted on the last page, and I think 3 TC main feels right. I've currently got the 4th in the board, but I'm not sure I actually want it at all. Has anyone who's gotten more time with it than me gotten a clearer indication on 3 vs. 4? I kind of want to bring back the 4th Ponder to the deck (either main or board) over the 4th TC.

[toor]

I can't believe that 4 TC is going to be a requirement in BUG going forward. Some people are going to try 4 for a while, but I have to believe that it won't be a consensus for a while how many is correct to play.

Also, let's remember that this is week 1 of TC being Legacy legal. Week 1. It's waaaaaay too early to say TC is going to take BUG out of Tier 1 discussion. Miracles being dominant for a solid month or so didn't do it, and everything I heard said Miracles preyed heavily on us. Maybe TC will do it eventually, but 1 week at the top isn't gonna do it.

Back to reasonable discussion: I've been testing a bit with the list I posted on the last page, and I think 3 TC main feels right. I've currently got the 4th in the board, but I'm not sure I actually want it at all. Has anyone who's gotten more time with it than me gotten a clearer indication on 3 vs. 4? I kind of want to bring back the 4th Ponder to the deck (either main or board) over the 4th TC.

I tried 4 exclusively, for about 5 hours of testing and a 30$ -4 round side event at a modern tourney this weekend.

I didn't put out a lot of particular effort to make TC work other than using thoughtseize as my disruption (+daze/FoW) and 3 x Lilianas. 0 ponder/probe, and 20 lands.

I found I often sided one out post board (if it was too slow or I expected relic/rip). But in the absence of GY hates (for example mirrors all day), I would want 4. Between liliana/brainstorm and force, you minimize the cost of extras. But since the meta is a little more diverse I would probably play 3 for now and not bother with 4th in the board.

In about 30 games, I never once felt like it interacted negatively with my goyf and only a few times did it negatively impact my deathrights. I can't believe anyone who tested the card thinks there any anti synergy between Goyf and TC.

I did lose a game where I needed to find ADecay and cast 2 cruises for 4 mana total. If they had been ponders, I would of seen more cards and had more mana (though mostly just needed more looks).

[wcm8]

If it really comes down to Goyf being awful due to the lack of graveyards, we can always just run True-Name Nemesis or something else in its place. In my testing though, Goyf generally maintains being a 3/4 at minimum regardless of both players Treasure Cruising. Outside of Rest in Peace or a Relic of Progenitus, there are going to be plenty of card types in the graveyard shortly after someone Cruises. Just play intelligently if you're against a Red opponent to avoid having your Goyfs die to Bolt state-baseed damage.

[T-101]

Another downside worth mentioning is that TC makes this deck even more vulnerable to yard hate. Hear me out.

This deck already has a problem with yard hate. RiP is the big one, but other hate does hurt as well. Deathrite, and Goyf are very yard dependent, and good opponents know that bringing in yard hate is good. Sure, we have the Countermagic and decays to gift back, but the problem remains... Yard hate does hurt us.

Drawing 3 is insane, but is it worth it at the cost of hurting our own guys AND increasing the effectiveness of opposing hate cards?

[KobeBryan]

If it really comes down to Goyf being awful due to the lack of graveyards, we can always just run True-Name Nemesis or something else in its place. In my testing though, Goyf generally maintains being a 3/4 at minimum regardless of both players Treasure Cruising. Outside of Rest in Peace or a Relic of Progenitus, there are going to be plenty of card types in the graveyard shortly after someone Cruises. Just play intelligently if you're against a Red opponent to avoid having your Goyfs die to Bolt state-baseed damage.

Its more like the bolt player needs to worry about bolt state-based damage.

[KobeBryan]

Another downside worth mentioning is that TC makes this deck even more vulnerable to yard hate. Hear me out.

This deck already has a problem with yard hate. RiP is the big one, but other hate does hurt as well. Deathrite, and Goyf are very yard dependent, and good opponents know that bringing in yard hate is good. Sure, we have the Countermagic and decays to gift back, but the problem remains... Yard hate does hurt us.

Drawing 3 is insane, but is it worth it at the cost of hurting our own guys AND increasing the effectiveness of opposing hate cards?

Thats the biggest reason why I don't like it. A single RIP can destroy 11-12 of our cards

[FoolofaTook]

If it really comes down to Goyf being awful due to the lack of graveyards, we can always just run True-Name Nemesis or something else in its place. In my testing though, Goyf generally maintains being a 3/4 at minimum regardless of both players Treasure Cruising. Outside of Rest in Peace or a Relic of Progenitus, there are going to be plenty of card types in the graveyard shortly after someone Cruises. Just play intelligently if you're against a Red opponent to avoid having your Goyfs die to Bolt state-baseed damage.

3/4 is about right based on my testing. When I don't delve he's a 4/5 unless I have Liliana in the GY. When I do delve he's usually a 2/3 right after the delve including the Treasure Cruise I put in the GY while delving. Then I put an instant in pretty quickly and he's a 3/4 again.

He's not a monster in the midgame when I also want to resolve TC. I hate the fact that the delve is a cost. It makes it such a risky play at times.

[doombot]

Previous guy is right, adding this to a standard bug delver list with drs AND goyf is just terrible. GY hate already is effective against bug delver and suddenly now it neuters nearly 25-30% of our deck. You can't play this AND tombstalker so our threats become even lighter than before with goyf being a weaker threat so going into the mid-late game is just completely bad.

In testing this card I took everything out making it BUG delver and it just became BUG control and played so much better...
Anyone who says delving 7 cards while also eating cards with DRS doesn't have an impact on their goyf is just lying to themselves out of pride on the price tag of their goyfs. It's strictly a terrible pairing. I benched my goyfs and delvers and added JTMS, TNNs, Strix, upped the liliana's and it's fantastic.

In Delver it fits 100x better in a Grixis or U/R build with Pyromancer and such. I especially liked testing it in the Grixis delver list with cabal therapies. You use the graveyard but not enough for them to side GY hate against you.

[iostream]

Previous guy is right, adding this to a standard bug delver list with drs AND goyf is just terrible. GY hate already is effective against bug delver and suddenly now it neuters nearly 25-30% of our deck. You can't play this AND tombstalker so our threats become even lighter than before with goyf being a weaker threat so going into the mid-late game is just completely bad.
There is a fundamental misunderstanding about how GY hate interacts with BUG Delver here. Even if the nuclear option, Rest in Peace, resolves, it is not an insurmountable obstacle for BUG because we have 4 Decays and 2+ Golgari Charm and we are really good at playing the control for a while until our cantrips find them. I've won games versus Death and Taxes where I've been under RiP for 10 turns just by being patient and not trying to race under it. It's bad for our tempo to be sure, but it's not anything that we can't fight through. We are not all-in on the graveyard.


Anyone who says delving 7 cards while also eating cards with DRS doesn't have an impact on their goyf is just lying to themselves out of pride on the price tag of their goyfs. It's strictly a terrible pairing. I benched my goyfs and delvers and added JTMS, TNNs, Strix, upped the liliana's and it's fantastic.

Well, I don't know what to tell you. Almost everyone who has tested TC, including myself, disagrees with you, so I suppose there are a lot of liars around. Also, it makes no sense that TC would be better in a control shell because you don't have nearly as many cheap early spells to fill the graveyard with.


In Delver it fits 100x better in a Grixis or U/R build with Pyromancer and such. I especially liked testing it in the Grixis delver list with cabal therapies. You use the graveyard but not enough for them to side GY hate against you.

It's true that no one is going to side in RiP versus U/R or Grixis. But those decks are notoriously soft to Punishing Fire, Umezawa's Jitte, and Pyroclasm effects, maybe even softer than BUG+Cruise is to RiP. The lesson is that there are good sideboard cards versus everything. If someone really wants to beat you, they will.

[doombot]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't play it because it can be boarded against. I'm saying playing it alongside options in our decks that share the same weakness just makes our deck even more susceptible to their post board hate, namely RiP. The intention of running this card would be to dig for answers correct? Well we can't do that efficiently against a RiP USING TC so is that really the card you want to run in games 2 or 3?

I keep seeing the argument in this thread with people who are saying it's okay to run this along with tarmogoyf feed out like this:

"It's okay that I delve 7 and turn my 5/6 goyf into a 2/3, because I draw 3 cards for one and then I use mana I still have open to cast 2 or three of those spells to make him a 5/6 again."

My question is if that is the argument then what is the entire point of drawing those cards. It's complete poop for your tempo and while it's true BUG can hit the mid game a little better than the rest of the delver decks, it's mid game becomes decreasingly potent when it's primary mid game beater is being neutered by your own deck's tactics.

I'm just trying to see the logic in playing this card in BUG Delver, I know it has amazing applications in about a handful of other legacy decks but I don't see it here to be honest without making changes to the deck. Most notably I'd at the very least switch out the goyfs for TNNs, MINIMUM. If you're gonna go into the mid-game more and you want the gas to do it, what's 1 more turn for a beater who isn't affected by the graveyard and who is more difficult to remove? I'd also increase to 1-2 tar pits.

Also comparing the sideboard hate against the 2 decks doesn't make sense, since Pyroclasm doesn't affect how Treasure Cruise interacts with their sideboard plan at all, that's the entire point I was making.

[iostream]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't play it because it can be boarded against. I'm saying playing it alongside options in our decks that share the same weakness just makes our deck even more susceptible to their post board hate, namely RiP. The intention of running this card would be to dig for answers correct? Well we can't do that efficiently against a RiP USING TC so is that really the card you want to run in games 2 or 3?That's not the intention. Here's an analogy with Shardless: you have to jump through some hoops to cast Visions the same way you have to jump through some hoops to cast Treasure Cruise. Obviously if you're in a tight spot, you would prefer to have Ponder or Brainstorm or Predict or whatever than a naked Visions in your hand. The reason why you play Visions is because it allows you to refill your hand with gas and apply pressure just by dint of the card advantage it produces. Same thing with Treasure Cruise. I'm not trying to cast Treasure Cruise through RiP to look for Golgari Charms - I'm digging for Golgari Charms so that I can bury my opponent with the card advantage from Cruise.

The reason why this is an effect you want in a tempo deck is because you get to play much more mana-efficiently than control decks (like Shardless) and so you can convert your extra cards into an actual on-board advantage very easily. Think about it this way: there used to be a real trade-off between this mana efficiency and the raw power of cards like Ancestral Visions that made Shardless versus BUG Delver a real question. With Treasure Cruise, this trade-off may no longer exist. Delver decks might get to have their cake and eat it too. We don't run 2/2's for 3 or 1/1's for 2. We don't have to cut Wastelands to facilitate our late-game trumps. All of our cards hit harder and earlier, and our early game disruption is far more potent. Now we will also get the raw card advantage that used to be Shardless's unique feature.

Honestly, the argument might extend to all blue decks - many other decks might deform their game plan to support Cruise. Think about Vintage - decks that can play Ancestral Recall do it if they can. The effect is really that strong.



I keep seeing the argument in this thread with people who are saying it's okay to run this along with tarmogoyf feed out like this:

"It's okay that I delve 7 and turn my 5/6 goyf into a 2/3, because I draw 3 cards for one and then I use mana I still have open to cast 2 or three of those spells to make him a 5/6 again."

My question is if that is the argument then what is the entire point of drawing those cards. It's complete poop for your tempo and while it's true BUG can hit the mid game a little better than the rest of the delver decks, it's mid game becomes decreasingly potent when it's primary mid game beater is being neutered by your own deck's tactics.

First, my experience has been that if you TC after combat, you get to refill the grave adequately before your next combat. So typically you're not missing out on very much damage, if any. Second, the cards we are drawing do not have blank text boxes. They are useful for things besides feeding Goyf. Maybe you draw a card that allows you to clear your opponent's Goyf out of the way. Maybe you draw a crucial piece of combo protection that buys you the one last turn you need to deliver the killing blow with Goyf. And so on.



I'm just trying to see the logic in playing this card in BUG Delver, I know it has amazing applications in about a handful of other legacy decks but I don't see it here to be honest without making changes to the deck. Most notably I'd at the very least switch out the goyfs for TNNs, MINIMUM. If you're gonna go into the mid-game more and you want the gas to do it, what's 1 more turn for a beater who isn't affected by the graveyard and who is more difficult to remove? I'd also increase to 1-2 tar pits.
There's a reason that the decks which seems to be making best use of TC are the ones with the lowest curve and fastest threats - it's because you need to dump cards quickly to make it castable in a reasonable timeframe. Delver decks already do this well, but we think that we can do it better, and that it would be worth sacrificing something to lower the curve because drawing 3 cards is so powerful. Raising the curve is the last thing I would want to do if I wanted to maximize TC's potential.



Also comparing the sideboard hate against the 2 decks doesn't make sense, since Pyroclasm doesn't affect how Treasure Cruise interacts with their sideboard plan at all, that's the entire point I was making.
You are totally correct on this point, I was wrong. I will say, however, that my personal experience has been that the hate is not too hard to play through, though. RiP is of course the main offender, and it can definitely be powerful, but it's not unbeatable. After that, though, what is commonly played? Grafdigger's Cage is definitely #2, and it does nothing against TC. One-shot effects like Tormod's Crypt are both rarely seen and ineffective given how fast we fill the graveyard anyway. Surgical Extraction is somewhat better, especially if it strips the TC, but who is running that against us?

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Played another week of legacy locals with Dragonslayer_90 and btm10 last night. I ended up 3-0-1 splitting up 1st and 2nd place prize with another 3-0 in the last round. In an effort to determine if our new arrival Treasure Cruise is the real deal in this deck, I ran three. My opponents were Ian playing Merfolk (2-1), Dragonslayer_90 playing UWR Miracles (2-0), Adam playing Walking Dead (2-0), and Nick with Sneak and Show (0-0-3; 2-3). Nick and I agreed to split and then played five games. I think I kept two hands that were a bit loose. Testing was the goal here; Sneak and Show is one match up where I feel I would like more testing. Anyway here is my list that I ran last night.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I felt the list ran well enough. My initial impression of Treasure Cruise is that we likely want to be somewhere in the 2-3 range. Every time I cast the card, it warranted a Force of Will or allowed me to reload my hand for additional board presence or disruption. Additionally I found myself once or twice playing it for 3 mana and delve 5, drawing my 3 cards, playing a land and then getting to make a Deathrite or Delver. I think when you get to pay :u: or :1::u: it is awesome, but at :2::u: it is still pretty decent. People seem to be really concerned about the interaction with Tarmogoyf. I lost 1 point of damage over the course of the night by due to delving. If you are careful about tracking your opponent's graveyard it seems to be a non-issue. The card is a real contender for slots in this deck. I did have one draw three that hit another copy of Cruise. That was a bit awkward. However, it just meant I got to play out the other cards before drawing another three two turns later. So I think four Cruises is probably going to be getting a bit clunky, but if you stick in the 2-3 range you are probably fine. I am probably going to run the list as is once or twice more. More testing is needed but I did miss the Dimir Charm... so I may make room for it going forward. As for the sideboard, the more I play the deck, the less impressed I am with Toxic Deluge. The match ups that you bring it in you are trying to wipe an entire board of creatures... so Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk are what comes to mind for me. Anyway these decks can be very aggressive and the cost of 2-4 life as part of the cost of the spell has made it uncastable for me on a number of occasions. Again this probably needs more testing, but I am very close to changing it to a Maelstrom Pulse or a Sultai Charm for future testing. Anyway thanks for reading!

[T-101]

Greetings All!

Played another week of legacy locals with Dragonslayer_90 and btm10 last night. I ended up 3-0-1 splitting up 1st and 2nd place prize with another 3-0 in the last round. In an effort to determine if our new arrival Treasure Cruise is the real deal in this deck, I ran three. My opponents were Ian playing Merfolk (2-1), Dragonslayer_90 playing UWR Miracles (2-0), Adam playing Walking Dead (2-0), and Nick with Sneak and Show (0-0-3; 2-3). Nick and I agreed to split and then played five games. I think I kept two hands that were a bit loose. Testing was the goal here; Sneak and Show is one match up where I feel I would like more testing. Anyway here is my list that I ran last night.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I felt the list ran well enough. My initial impression of Treasure Cruise is that we likely want to be somewhere in the 2-3 range. Every time I cast the card, it warranted a Force of Will or allowed me to reload my hand for additional board presence or disruption. Additionally I found myself once or twice playing it for 3 mana and delve 5, drawing my 3 cards, playing a land and then getting to make a Deathrite or Delver. I think when you get to pay :u: or :1::u: it is awesome, but at :2::u: it is still pretty decent. People seem to be really concerned about the interaction with Tarmogoyf. I lost 1 point of damage over the course of the night by due to delving. If you are careful about tracking your opponent's graveyard it seems to be a non-issue. The card is a real contender for slots in this deck. I did have one draw three that hit another copy of Cruise. That was a bit awkward. However, it just meant I got to play out the other cards before drawing another three two turns later. So I think four Cruises is probably going to be getting a bit clunky, but if you stick in the 2-3 range you are probably fine. I am probably going to run the list as is once or twice more. More testing is needed but I did miss the Dimir Charm... so I may make room for it going forward. As for the sideboard, the more I play the deck, the less impressed I am with Toxic Deluge. The match ups that you bring it in you are trying to wipe an entire board of creatures... so Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk are what comes to mind for me. Anyway these decks can be very aggressive and the cost of 2-4 life as part of the cost of the spell has made it uncastable for me on a number of occasions. Again this probably needs more testing, but I am very close to changing it to a Maelstrom Pulse or a Sultai Charm for future testing. Anyway thanks for reading!

Well done. I did not start as a believe in TC, but I suppose I'll throw 3 in the deck and see how it does over the course of the rest of the week and weekend. I'll start with 3, and see how I like it.

Also, you get bonus points for running Zur's Weirding in Legacy. One of those cards I adore, but never find the space for when it comes time to submit decklists :(

[Sturtzilla]

Well done. I did not start as a believe in TC, but I suppose I'll throw 3 in the deck and see how it does over the course of the rest of the week and weekend. I'll start with 3, and see how I like it.

Thanks! It might make mulliganning decisions a bit tougher as well. It is a card that you can't really bank on casting until at earliest turn 3, but more often it will be turn 4 or 5 and it will be the last card in your hand. I think 3 is a good starting point. It will show up enough that you can get a good feeling for the card. I think more rigorous testing will determine if we go to 4 and tweak the deck a bit or if we stick with 2-3. You want to be able to draw three cards but you do want to draw cards that do attack, block, kill threats, make opponents discard or counter their spells. So in my mind the question is how do we hone the list down so we are consistent in being able to cast TC and that TC hits relevant cards.



Also, you get bonus points for running Zur's Weirding in Legacy. One of those cards I adore, but never find the space for when it comes time to submit decklists :(

The card is a house. If resolved, it basically makes it impossible for Miracles and 12Post to win. It is also pretty reasonable against a swath of the non-Burn combo decks. It is great; give it a try! :cool:

[YamiJoey]

Treasure Cruise seems to punish mulligans really heavily. (Guess whay my testing session consisted of...)

[wcm8]

Treasure Cruise seems to punish mulligans really heavily. (Guess whay my testing session consisted of...)

It's not much different than opening with a Jace, TMS in that it's a card that is pretty much dead in your opener but ends up paying off/winning the game around turn 4 if it resolves. Granted, tempo decks want to be playing efficient cards, but running 3 TC is a calculated risk. The tradeoff seems well worth it.

[iostream]

Running 3 TC and 2 Liliana is kind of a lot of Jace-type lategame cards for the deck to be running - traditionally it was just 2 Liliana and 0-2 3cmc creatures (counting Tombstalker in this category). I wonder if we want to cut the Lili's or move them to the side. for something cheaper.

On a related note, Gerry Thompson wrote an article about Cruise today discussing how it fits into BUG. Among the ideas he thinks are reasonable to consider are: tilting the maindeck to be better versus RiP Miracles (which he suggests as a natural foil to Cruise decks), replacing Hymn with Thoughtseize (since it's easier to come back from Hymn in a Cruise-filled format), and playing Spell Snare over Spell Pierce.

[YamiJoey]

It's not much different than opening with a Jace, TMS in that it's a card that is pretty much dead in your opener but ends up paying off/winning the game around turn 4 if it resolves. Granted, tempo decks want to be playing efficient cards, but running 3 TC is a calculated risk. The tradeoff seems well worth it.

I have literally never tries to play Mind Sculptor in this deck. And Jace costs 4-mana, whereas Cruise just requires cards as an input. On 7 cards you can miss land drops, but casting Ponders, and Dazes, and other cool stuff will get you an Ancestral Recall eventually. You want to just have a lot of cards, not necessarily specific ones.

[wcm8]

I have literally never tries to play Mind Sculptor in this deck. And Jace costs 4-mana, whereas Cruise just requires cards as an input. On 7 cards you can miss land drops, but casting Ponders, and Dazes, and other cool stuff will get you an Ancestral Recall eventually. You want to just have a lot of cards, not necessarily specific ones.

Before this conversation gets derailed any further, note that I was NOT suggesting playing Jace TMS in this deck*, merely making the comparison of having Treasure Cruise in the opening hand. In decks that *do* run Jace, e.g. Esper Control, opening with a Jace is almost like a mulligan, but that doesn't mean the deck wants to drop Jace just because of the possibility of a copy in the opening hand. Hence, for TA and other decks that can play Treasure Cruise, I see a parallel here -- sure, it sucks to open with one, but the card is so good otherwise that the opening hand argument is a weak one for cutting the card.


*though to be fair, a singleton in the maindeck or 1-2 in the SB is actually a perfectly reasonable choice, as Jace is great against Control and Midrange.

[btm10]

Before this conversation gets derailed any further, note that I was NOT suggesting playing Jace TMS in this deck*, merely making the comparison of having Treasure Cruise in the opening hand. In decks that *do* run Jace, e.g. Esper Control, opening with a Jace is almost like a mulligan, but that doesn't mean the deck wants to drop Jace just because of the possibility of a copy in the opening hand. Hence, for TA and other decks that can play Treasure Cruise, I see a parallel here -- sure, it sucks to open with one, but the card is so good otherwise that the opening hand argument is a weak one for cutting the card.


*though to be fair, a singleton in the maindeck or 1-2 in the SB is actually a perfectly reasonable choice, as Jace is great against Control and Midrange.

I basically agree with this sentiment. I only played 2 copies of Cruise at my local this week, but I was very happy with it. I shrank a Goyf (to a 3/4 from a 4/5) once postcombat, but it was a 4/5 again by my next combat step. I also tested Negate over Spell Pierce and was extremely happy with it. I'll write a lengthier explanation when I have time.

[FoolofaTook]

There's some amazing tech that TC and DTT will enable in Legacy at this point. I'm not as down on Goyf as I was yesterday. There are some real synergies that can be created by making Goyf the every power critter. He's the only creature that I can think of at this point that can easily float between 2 and 5 power.

I think the Delve cards were aimed at him to some degree but as usual R&D forgot some important things.

[Dragonslayer_90]

There's some amazing tech that TC and DTT will enable in Legacy at this point. I'm not as down on Goyf as I was yesterday. There are some real synergies that can be created by making Goyf the every power critter. He's the only creature that I can think of at this point that can easily float between 2 and 5 power.

I think the Delve cards were aimed at him to some degree but as usual R&D forgot some important things.

Good to know. The fact that you've changed your mind on Goyf makes me a less uneasy about him going forward as well in Team America since you claimed to have been conducting testing. When Treasure Cruise started making waves too many people dismissed the card on theory craft alone and at some point I get sick of it because most people on this forum should be capable of doing their own testing to figure that the card is bonkers. Anyways, are you willing to be more specific on why you now think Goyf will not decline but still be an all star in legacy? I always like to hear about R&D missing the mark when trying to nerf something.

[FoolofaTook]

Good to know. The fact that you've changed your mind on Goyf makes me a less uneasy about him going forward as well in Team America since you claimed to have been conducting testing. When Treasure Cruise started making waves too many people dismissed the card on theory craft alone and at some point I get sick of it because most people on this forum should be capable of doing their own testing to figure that the card is bonkers. Anyways, are you willing to be more specific on why you now think Goyf will not decline but still be an all star in legacy? I always like to hear about R&D missing the mark when trying to nerf something.

Treasure Cruise is going to be a bomb in a few lists, a good card that decreases predictability in others and a maybe yes/maybe no card in a bunch of others. That's a separate argument which I am all argued out on and I'm willing to let the meta we play in settle the issue.

Tarmogoyf however has gained a new ability in a list playing Delve and DRS. He's now the customizable creature who can have 2 power when you need him to and grow up to 5 power really easily if you decide that's best.

There are so many cards that interact with creature power at this point that don't get played much and almost never in creature lists because there isn't a defined set of creatures that can best take advantage of them. Generally this is because they specify a power at which they interact well or there is a variable in them that defines which creatures will work best with them. Well, Tarmogoyf now slides in as a factor with those cards because you can add him to the best creatures that worked with that card before and he becomes a variable creature that works well with the card in question and can also become big if the combo is not out, giving you a backup plan.

3 is a big number in the power sweepstakes. Insectile Aberration has 3 power. Vendilion Clique has 3 power. True-Name Nemesis has 3 power. Creeping Tarpit has 3 power. A 1/2 creature carrying a Sword has 3 power. Now Tarmogoyf can pretty easily have 3 power if you need him to have that. There are a lot of 2 power creatures in the meta. Tarmogoyf can slot in beside those creatures as well with a little bit of work.

I think Umezawa's Jitte will also profit from the changes in the meta. It's already a very strong card but situational. Now it has some combo possibilities as well.

[GtF]

Treasure Cruise is going to be a bomb in a few lists, a good card that decreases predictability in others and a maybe yes/maybe no card in a bunch of others. That's a separate argument which I am all argued out on and I'm willing to let the meta we play in settle the issue.

Tarmogoyf however has gained a new ability in a list playing Delve and DRS. He's now the customizable creature who can have 2 power when you need him to and grow up to 5 power really easily if you decide that's best.

There are so many cards that interact with creature power at this point that don't get played much and almost never in creature lists because there isn't a defined set of creatures that can best take advantage of them. Generally this is because they specify a power at which they interact well or there is a variable in them that defines which creatures will work best with them. Well, Tarmogoyf now slides in as a factor with those cards because you can add him to the best creatures that worked with that card before and he becomes a variable creature that works well with the card in question and can also become big if the combo is not out, giving you a backup plan.

3 is a big number in the power sweepstakes. Insectile Aberration has 3 power. Vendilion Clique has 3 power. True-Name Nemesis has 3 power. Creeping Tarpit has 3 power. A 1/2 creature carrying a Sword has 3 power. Now Tarmogoyf can pretty easily have 3 power if you need him to have that. There are a lot of 2 power creatures in the meta. Tarmogoyf can slot in beside those creatures as well with a little bit of work.

I think Umezawa's Jitte will also profit from the changes in the meta. It's already a very strong card but situational. Now it has some combo possibilities as well.

I'm very curious exactly what are the cards that you are talking about that benefit from a creature with variable power that you think are playable in legacy? The only one I can think of that sees some amount of play is Meekstone, but playing it with Goyf in your deck still seems poor, even if you can theoretically shrink Goyf to be able to untap one turn. It doesn't work well with those other 3 power creatures listed (well it's nice at shutting down the opponents of course)

[dog_koko]

Ensnaring Bridge

[FoolofaTook]

Ensnaring Bridge

Gold star.

The ability to go from hellbent to 3 cards in hand off of one draw is kind of profound when you think of the number of 3 power creatures that blue has available right now that are already played as staples. The problem is that you'd rather not put all your eggs in that basket. Goyf fits as Plan B who can now be customized to fit into the combo as well.

Jitte lets 1 and 2 power creatures attack and then become larger after the fact. The sequencing will take time to work out but I think it's going to be a classic two-step with your evasive attackers getting to attack on your turn and your opponent's creatures standing around on theirs.

The break is that Ensnaring Bridge is supposed to be a device for non-creatureless lists and now it is very usable in lists with high advantage moderate power creatures that are also using TC and DTT and we'll likely see Land Tax come back in some lists since it won't be the only show in town in terms of getting from hellbent to 3 in a hurry.

Draw 3 is bad. Card advantage at instant speed is bad. R&D forgot these things for just a moment and now we're going to have a lot of fun with that.

[CorpT]

I don't think you're playing the same deck as me if you want to play Ensnaring Bridge. Or even care about Ensnaring Bridge.

[FoolofaTook]

I don't think you're playing the same deck as me if you want to play Ensnaring Bridge. Or even care about Ensnaring Bridge.

All lists evolve over time. There are a lot of different variants of most of them also. The things that make lists evolve is that better power plays become available in the archetype they're in. Sometimes real power cards become weaker. Hymn to Tourach as an example has been weakened by the advent of the new blue card advantage. Recovering from a Hymn early is now much easier than it was before Treasure Cruise was printed. Going to find a card that you want to put in the GY at instant speed has become a lot easier.

The current TA has already evolved multiple times in the course of it's existence, removing staples like Tombstalker, Snuff Out and Sinkhole and replacing them with much easier cards to play like DRS, Delver and Abrupt Decay. Liliana of the Veil almost changed the archetype when she showed up on the scene. The list was hellbent aggro and disruption when it first emerged and has evolved to fit somewhere between aggro-control and mid-range at this point. Adding Bridges would just take it a little bit further over to the control end of the spectrum while still preserving the ability to aggro early with a Delver or Goyf that went unanswered.

I do agree that it is possible that the Ensnaring Bridges option might spawn a new list in BUG Control instead, however it doesn't have to do that. Delver of Secrets is still one of the two best creatures in BUG at this point, alongside DRS, and you aren't forced to give it up as most BUG Control lists have done. Having a permanent source of creature control that interacts well with it and with the card advantage newly available to us may well make a synthesis list possible.

WotC never planned for Ensnaring Bridge to be used in a list with aggressive 3 power creatures. It was for weenie lists and creatureless primarily. Now there is a new reality created by mad draw 3 and instant speed card advantage. It'll be interesting to see where that takes us.

I haven't posted the list I'm testing at the moment because it is a hybrid of Delver and Control that tries to fit the new synergies to the best cards in the archetype.

[wcm8]

Ensnaring Bridge is a control card. Sure, it stops Griselbrand and Emrakul, but it doesn't really belong in an aggressive deck which intends on casting Tarmogoyf or even attacking with Delver. BUG particularly goes hellbent pretty frequently with its tapout style and Liliana. Seems like it would interfere with your own strategy more than actually hurting an opponent. It's not even that great against a lot of aggro decks, since UR for example has Pyromancer and can pump Swiftspear with Instants after attacks have been declared.

I think the deck you are looking to play E. Bridge in is some form of Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek, possibly with UB Tezzeret.

I actually have no idea what the hell you are talking about to be honest. Modulating the power/toughness of Goyf is pretty irrelevant in my honest opinion.

[Sturtzilla]

I also don't see much utility in the ability to modulate Tarmogoyf's power and toughness. The only things I can think of are Meekstone, Ensnaring Bridge, and Abzan Charm. Abrupt Decay handles two of these cards. To play around the Charm you would need to be able to Dig Through Time in response and shrink your Goyf's power. This seems very corner case... there isn't really an Abzan/Junk deck to play this Charm anyway. So I don't see much utility outside of the above mentioned artifacts, which can get countered, forced to be discarded, or Decayed.

[iostream]

Here are a few questions that I would like to discuss. I feel like discussing individual card choices is difficult until we have a solid, general theoretical understanding of the following issues. I'm wondering, now that everyone knows that TC is really good:

1) What happens to the value of discard spells? One argument goes "Hymn/TS is easy to recover from because of Cruise, so they become worse" and another goes "Hymn/TS are more valuable as ways to counteract opposing cruises." Which is right? Similar question holds for Liliana. How much weaker is the +1 now? Is she closer to being a glorified Diabolic Edict?

2) Did the tapout style or the Stifle style benefit more from TC? I want to say that since TC is a sorcery, you'd like to tap out more often than not, but I don't know if that's really true.

3) How aggressively do we need to lower our curve? Do spells like Hymn become much worse because we need the velocity to enable Cruise earlier? Or can we afford to be more patient with Cruise than other shells?

[Sturtzilla]

3) How aggressively do we need to lower our curve? Do spells like Hymn become much worse because we need the velocity to enable Cruise earlier? Or can we afford to be more patient with Cruise than other shells?

btm10 and I were discussing this point specifically a day or so ago. It seems that if we transition from Hymn to Tourach to say Thoughtseize, we are able to Cruise faster. This change also gives the deck a little more flexibility in the early turns, especially on turn two following a turn one fetch into Deathrite. This would give a slightly more aggressive slant early while also allowing faster TC for reloading. We haven't tested the variations yet, but it is on our radar as something to look into.

[wcm8]

I am wondering if a maindeck (or two) Toxic Deluge would be good in the format now. Given that Elves and Young Pyromancer may be increasingly common threats, perhaps Liliana isn't quite the bomb she used to be. I'd still probably want at least 1 copy, but she (and Hymn) seems a bit worse if people are running TCruise. Deluge seems to be a great way to come back from an opponent deploying multiple threats post-Cruise. In a format that moves towards high velocity, Abrupt Decay becomes a bit worse so having a sweeper to make up the difference is pretty important. I certainly loved Deluge when I was running it as a singleton before TCruise was spoiled.

I don't think the deck can really support it with Thoughtseize + Deluge, but here's another thought on the Goyf issue: Bitterblossom? It's a 2cmc evasive threat that seems better equipped to deal with UWr Miracles than most, doesn't rely on the graveyard, and the lifeloss can be mitigated with DRS or binning it with your own ADecay if it really comes down to it. 2 Jitte in the SB would also be pretty great along with this card. Obviously the drawbacks include the lifeloss, making opposing Goyfs monstrous, being pretty slow, susceptible to Spell Pierce, and not immediately providing an onboard threat/blocker. But it's something I've considered playing before to specifically deal with UWR Miracles

Ultimately we are cramped for space and need to figure out what the options really are.

Starting with the following as a given:
19 lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Decay
3 TCruise

That leaves 10 cards. Likely 4 slots goes to Goyf, but there are arguments for alternative threats. The 20th Land becomes almost necessary if we decide to play some 3CMC cards and/or Hymn. We want some form of additional disruption, whether it be Hymn, TSeize/IoK, Stifle, Spell Pierce, or whatever. There are arguments going towards running the full playset of TCruise, as even if it leads to awkward draws, being able to consistently fire it off early is the key to winning some matchups. And of course there are utility slots to consider: Sylvan Library, Liliana, additional Removal of some kind, etc.

***

On a completely separate thought, Grixis actually seems like a perfectly valid Delver shell now: getting access to DRS, Delver, and YP (and Swiftspear/TNN if additional threats are warranted) seems good. Pretty much all the advantages of UR plus having DRS + discard and Black SB cards. Maybe even live the dream of Cabal Therapy + G. Probe + Y. Pyromancer?

[KobeBryan]

btm10 and I were discussing this point specifically a day or so ago. It seems that if we transition from Hymn to Tourach to say Thoughtseize, we are able to Cruise faster. This change also gives the deck a little more flexibility in the early turns, especially on turn two following a turn one fetch into Deathrite. This would give a slightly more aggressive slant early while also allowing faster TC for reloading. We haven't tested the variations yet, but it is on our radar as something to look into.

I was going to post this.

But its a little bit more than that. With 4 goyfs, 4 drs, and 3 TCs, people will bring in RIP. The randomness of Hymn may not be as advantageous than a thoughtseize were we could pluck away their gy hate.

[FoolofaTook]

I was going to post this.

But its a little bit more than that. With 4 goyfs, 4 drs, and 3 TCs, people will bring in RIP. The randomness of Hymn may not be as advantageous than a thoughtseize were we could pluck away their gy hate.

4 Abrupt Decay main + 2 Krosan Grip in the SB makes Rest in Peace not a major issue unless the opponent has more counters than us. In that situation they will control everything but RiP and we'll have full graveyards and an empty board.

I think the real issue right now is whether devoting a 5th of the shell to proactive disruption works in this meta. Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize are both less effective than they were due to the recovery capability of a TC after heavy disruption. The original TA had 16 pieces of proactive disruption and 8 counters. The Stifles were disruption 13-16 and also functioned as pseudo-counters in the mid to late game.

You could make a good argument that we're below the threshold of disruption required to stay strong in the new meta. The character of our disruption has also been weakened.

So do we go back up to very heavy disruption to try to stay even or do we flow some in front of the meta and accept the fact that discard is just not as strong as it was?

[iostream]

So do we go back up to very heavy disruption to try to stay even or do we flow some in front of the meta and accept the fact that discard is just not as strong as it was?
I'll reiterate what I said before: it is still pretty unclear whether or not discard is any worse. Maybe stripping a Cruise from your opponent's hand is really powerful. Maybe discard is a mirror breaker in Cruise v Cruise matches because you have not just Cruise to create card advantage, but also Hymn.

The potential arguments go on and on, and I think we haven't really carefully worked through what is actually correct.

[FoolofaTook]

I'll reiterate what I said before: it is still pretty unclear whether or not discard is any worse. Maybe stripping a Cruise from your opponent's hand is really powerful. Maybe discard is a mirror breaker in Cruise v Cruise matches because you have not just Cruise to create card advantage, but also Hymn.

The potential arguments go on and on, and I think we haven't really carefully worked through what is actually correct.

The UR Delver lists argue that discard is less effective at this point. Can't smack them down even with a good draw and not have them get right back up off the mat with a little luck. That possibility did not exist before TC. That it exists now is a big deal. They also play Gitaxian Probe as a 4-of, which gives them too much information for Hymn to have the shock and awe effect it used too.

Envelop is now going to go into a lot of sideboards to deal with TC. It was already in some SB's for S&T, Hymn, Glimpse of Nature, Terminus and Entreat mainly. The additional lists adding it is splash damage for both Hymn and Thoughtseize. The number of dangerous Sorcery's that must be responded too with a cheap hard counter has reached a critical mass in the meta.

I do agree that it's possible that Hymn hasn't been hit badly at this point but I don't know whether it is still a kill card early the way it was before. If it's not I'd rather have targeted discard than it, even if the discard cannot hit land.

In this meta if Hymn is not a killer I'd rather have a Counterspell than it because the Counterspell will stop the thing that is going to kill me otherwise most of the time.

[eostby]

OK, so going along with the idea that discard is going to become less advantageous, do we shift towards having more permission? Because if TC is going to be so big a deal as to nullify the advantages of discard, does that make permission, even soft permission like Spell Pierce, better? It seems like a lot of times, people are tapping out for TC, so anything from Force Spike to Mana Leak just wrecks those plays (I am kind of considering Spell Pierce again).

I do think we keep Liliana, as discarding can also fuel our own TC plays, but if other discard effects need to go, permission might be how we fight it.

[jb231]

Hey guys, I just found this site and finally have a place to try and get some advice on my BUG list. I've been under the impression for some time that nobody really discussed legacy anywhere regularly so I've been working at it on my own largely. Curious what you guys think of my current list, some changes I've made recently

-3 hymn +3 thoughtseize - mostly the same thought you guys have been discussing for the last couple pages, not sure if this is correct since I've won a lot of games by just T2 hymning someone out of the game and subsequent hymns are often too much to handle if they managed through the first.
-2 Dark Confidant/Tombstalker +2 TNN - I've been testing and RiP is really a back breaker, I can usually get through it eventually but by then it's given my opponent a lot of time to set up more powerful plays. Also while I like bob a lot I've been playing a lot more burn decks so I'd rather have TNN as a wall and generally un-disruptable clock. I also really like that in some matchups a T2 TNN is just good enough or buys me a huge amount of time.
+2 treasure cruise -2 ponder - not sure if this is right, I added some more land to make up for the lost ponder however
+2 spell pierce -2 flex slot - this is a test, so far I do like spell pierce but am unsure if it will make the MD. It's sort of bias towards my local meta with lots of burn players lately as well.

Here's the list, the sideboard will likely be tweaked a little but at this point I don't really want to let go of my hymns.

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Ponder
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Thoughtseize
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Envelop
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte

Cards for SB that I'm considering but don't know if they have a spot - Null Rod, Toxic Deluge, spell snare, life from the loam.

[btm10]

Hey guys, I just found this site and finally have a place to try and get some advice on my BUG list. I've been under the impression for some time that nobody really discussed legacy anywhere regularly so I've been working at it on my own largely. Curious what you guys think of my current list, some changes I've made recently.

I like Thoughtseize, but I'd never, ever cut a Force before cutting a Daze. I'd also drop Envelop from the board for either Spell Pierce or Negate. Dimir Charm maindeck has been great for me.


btm10 and I were discussing this point specifically a day or so ago. It seems that if we transition from Hymn to Tourach to say Thoughtseize, we are able to Cruise faster. This change also gives the deck a little more flexibility in the early turns, especially on turn two following a turn one fetch into Deathrite. This would give a slightly more aggressive slant early while also allowing faster TC for reloading. We haven't tested the variations yet, but it is on our radar as something to look into.

To expand on Sturtzilla's point about Thoughtseize vs. Hymn in in main - I didn't approach the idea from a standpoint of being more aggressive, but rather one of considering the effect of Treasure Cruise. As several people have pointed out, TC lets opponents draw out of the 2-for-1 and stabilize. Furthermore, Treasure Cruise favors a longer game where the tempo lines of DRS into Delver + Hymn or Delver into Hymn are less effective not only because of our opponents' Cruises but because we are also interested in casting Cruise. From this base (longer game, opponents more capable of offsetting card advantage), it makes sense to orient ourselves toward answering specific threats to our game plan rather than broad spectrum disruption designed to keep our opponents on the ropes until we can kill them. Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition operate on a plan of lining up your hand with our opponents. For instance, a hand of 2 lands, DRS, Delver, Thoughtseize, Daze, Brainstorm encourages turn one DRS into turn two Thoughtseize (taking removal) + Delver; on the other hand, an opening hand of 2 lands, Abrupt Decay, DRS, Ponder, Liliana, Thoughtseize would favor a slower line where you'd be inclined to use Thoughtseize on a threat and set up a more controlling/midrangey game based on developing advantage with Liliana. With Hymn instead of Thougthseize the second hand is likely a bad keep because you aren't pressuring your opponent's life total and are forced to fire Ponder off on turn 2 to find a threat, but the hand as it is simply allows you to grind your opponent out by taking the card in hand that hurts you the most, Decaying or Liliana'ing their remaining threat (which you probably know about because of Thoughtseize) and playing out a slow game.

In the above example, the second Thoughtseize hand also makes a larger number of Ponders keepable because you aren't squeezed into killing your opponent before they recover from Hymn. In the second example, a Treasure Cruise off of Ponder becomes pretty appealing, especially with turn 3 Liliana after a Thoughtseize to clear the way, whereas you'd be so hard pressed to hit a threat if your opener had Hymn in the Thoughtseize slot that a Ponder of DRS, Fetch, Cruise is probably not keepable, whereas the Thoughtseize hand is happy to draw the fetch from Ponder, draw Cruise for its next turn, and +1 Liliana, shuffle away DRS, and either use Decay and Cruise next turn or simply to Cruise to a fresh 3 if nothing merits Decay.




I am wondering if a maindeck (or two) Toxic Deluge would be good in the format now. Given that Elves and Young Pyromancer may be increasingly common threats, perhaps Liliana isn't quite the bomb she used to be. I'd still probably want at least 1 copy, but she (and Hymn) seems a bit worse if people are running TCruise. Deluge seems to be a great way to come back from an opponent deploying multiple threats post-Cruise. In a format that moves towards high velocity, Abrupt Decay becomes a bit worse so having a sweeper to make up the difference is pretty important. I certainly loved Deluge when I was running it as a singleton before TCruise was spoiled.

I don't think the deck can really support it with Thoughtseize + Deluge, but here's another thought on the Goyf issue: Bitterblossom? It's a 2cmc evasive threat that seems better equipped to deal with UWr Miracles than most, doesn't rely on the graveyard, and the lifeloss can be mitigated with DRS or binning it with your own ADecay if it really comes down to it. 2 Jitte in the SB would also be pretty great along with this card. Obviously the drawbacks include the lifeloss, making opposing Goyfs monstrous, being pretty slow, susceptible to Spell Pierce, and not immediately providing an onboard threat/blocker. But it's something I've considered playing before to specifically deal with UWR Miracles

Ultimately we are cramped for space and need to figure out what the options really are.

Starting with the following as a given:
19 lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Decay
3 TCruise

That leaves 10 cards. Likely 4 slots goes to Goyf, but there are arguments for alternative threats. The 20th Land becomes almost necessary if we decide to play some 3CMC cards and/or Hymn. We want some form of additional disruption, whether it be Hymn, TSeize/IoK, Stifle, Spell Pierce, or whatever. There are arguments going towards running the full playset of TCruise, as even if it leads to awkward draws, being able to consistently fire it off early is the key to winning some matchups. And of course there are utility slots to consider: Sylvan Library, Liliana, additional Removal of some kind, etc.

***

On a completely separate thought, Grixis actually seems like a perfectly valid Delver shell now: getting access to DRS, Delver, and YP (and Swiftspear/TNN if additional threats are warranted) seems good. Pretty much all the advantages of UR plus having DRS + discard and Black SB cards. Maybe even live the dream of Cabal Therapy + G. Probe + Y. Pyromancer?

I agree with the thought here, but I'm not sure about the details. The more controlling shells are probably happier with Deluge than this deck is because they're happier casting a 3 mana spell that isn't a threat in its own right (which Liliana is against a lot of decks). I definitely agree that Thoughtseize + Deluge is probably wrong and that Thoughtseize + Deluge + Bitterblossom is unsupportable unless we also run Wandering Stream, which is terrible. That being said, Bitterblossom might be worth testing as a sideboard option, but I feel like it's at its best against Miracles and very slow against everything else, whereas Creeping Tar Pit is great against a number of decks and helps out with expensive sideboard cards like Jace and Zur's Wierding.

Finally, I'm not sure if 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Cruise is the right configuration, especially without Sylvan Library - Sylvan is really more of a "core" card than are Ponders 3-4, IMO. Then again, I've already dropped a Daze because I almost never want to draw it after turn 2 and it's really only good in a comparatively small number of opening hands, so perhaps I'm an outlier in this regard.

[iostream]

To expand on Sturtzilla's point about Thoughtseize vs. Hymn in in main - I didn't approach the idea from a standpoint of being more aggressive, but rather one of considering the effect of Treasure Cruise. As several people have pointed out, TC lets opponents draw out of the 2-for-1 and stabilize. Furthermore, Treasure Cruise favors a longer game where the tempo lines of DRS into Delver + Hymn or Delver into Hymn are less effective not only because of our opponents' Cruises but because we are also interested in casting Cruise. From this base (longer game, opponents more capable of offsetting card advantage), it makes sense to orient ourselves toward answering specific threats to our game plan rather than broad spectrum disruption designed to keep our opponents on the ropes until we can kill them. Thoughtseize, Duress, and Inquisition operate on a plan of lining up your hand with our opponents. For instance, a hand of 2 lands, DRS, Delver, Thoughtseize, Daze, Brainstorm encourages turn one DRS into turn two Thoughtseize (taking removal) + Delver; on the other hand, an opening hand of 2 lands, Abrupt Decay, DRS, Ponder, Liliana, Thoughtseize would favor a slower line where you'd be inclined to use Thoughtseize on a threat and set up a more controlling/midrangey game based on developing advantage with Liliana. With Hymn instead of Thougthseize the second hand is likely a bad keep because you aren't pressuring your opponent's life total and are forced to fire Ponder off on turn 2 to find a threat, but the hand as it is simply allows you to grind your opponent out by taking the card in hand that hurts you the most, Decaying or Liliana'ing their remaining threat (which you probably know about because of Thoughtseize) and playing out a slow game.

In the above example, the second Thoughtseize hand also makes a larger number of Ponders keepable because you aren't squeezed into killing your opponent before they recover from Hymn. In the second example, a Treasure Cruise off of Ponder becomes pretty appealing, especially with turn 3 Liliana after a Thoughtseize to clear the way, whereas you'd be so hard pressed to hit a threat if your opener had Hymn in the Thoughtseize slot that a Ponder of DRS, Fetch, Cruise is probably not keepable, whereas the Thoughtseize hand is happy to draw the fetch from Ponder, draw Cruise for its next turn, and +1 Liliana, shuffle away DRS, and either use Decay and Cruise next turn or simply to Cruise to a fresh 3 if nothing merits Decay.
Great post - this is exactly the kind of general theory discussion I think we should be having. A few comments about the discussion of Hand #2:

Maybe I'm bad at playing this deck, but [2 lands, Abrupt Decay, DRS, Ponder, Liliana, Hymn] is a hand I would keep against an unknown opponent. You don't have a very efficient way of pressuring life totals, but you do have DRS, which can probably ping for 2 while you wait into draw into gas. This is not very powerful, but you are so well set up to play the long game that you can afford to be patient - i.e. even if your opponent has like 3 solid creatures in hand turn 2, Hymn will probably get at least one, and depending on what's left behind, you have Decay/Lili to clean up. Perhaps you'll be a card short of cleaning up, but maybe not - if the opponent's hand is that loaded, then TS is probably even worse since in addition to not being able to deal with what's coming, you don't have any probability at all of getting lucky with a meaningful 2-for-1, and on top of that you're making an actively tempo-negative play. I think regardless of whether you have Hymn or TS in that hand, if turn 2 Ponder shows a Cruise and 2 other random cards, I think I'm keeping it and setting up Cruise. But more generally, I think it's easy to cook up hands where either TS or Hymn is better. [3 lands, Delver, Ponder, Liliana, Hymn or TS] on the play clearly wants TS to protect the 1 threat in hand. [2 lands, Wasteland, DRS, Brainstorm, Liliana, Hymn or TS] clearly wants Hymn to set up the soft-lock. It's not really sufficient to look at it on an example-by-example level.

After testing more, I think I have a better idea of how to answer this question, although I emphasize that I am still quite uncertain and actively am soliciting people who disagree with me to explain why I am wrong. Here are three general thoughts:

1) The pre-TC theory question of whether TS or Hymn is better in general was argued ad nauseam last spring after Drew Levin wrote that article about it, and I think the results since then pretty strongly suggest that Hymn was in general stronger (pre-TC) for various reasons. Recall that the general argument (which seems to have been borne out by experience) is that if (pre-TC) BUG has any sort of on-board presence, it is favored in topdeck wars because we have few lands, cheap answers, better and more mana-efficient threats than almost any other deck, and a lot of cantrips to filter our topdecks into the correct thing. That is, if your opponent is out of cards and on the back foot while Delver is knocking, it is hard to imagine BUG losing. Thus, breaking up resilient strategies and getting your opponent hellbent is good because we are awesome at playing the attrition game, and that's what Hymn is best at enabling in general.

2) The question at hand now is whether or not Treasure Cruise specifically changes argument (1). I'm inclined from my testing to argue that it doesn't - BUG is still not closing the game out fast. You're still not actually trying to depolarize your opponent's hand and force through a bunch of damage like Drew Levin was arguing - you're still playing the attrition game (which, by the way, TC seems to slot perfectly into). It is true that TC can dig your opponent out of a tight spot, but whenever a TC from either player hits the stack, it's going to be something both players have to fight over, and stripping their hand of cards before TC hits is generically good at helping you win those counterspell wars, especially because they usually involve Force of Will, which is by itself another 2-for-1 for you. i.e. It is hard for your opponents to have so many cards that they can fight through Hymn, deal with your board, and then on top of that effectively fight over Cruise by turn 4. For example, there have been games in testing where my opponent simply didn't have a random blue card to pitch to force because of Hymn.

3) However, as I mentioned, TC itself is terrific at enabling the attrition game. If we resolve it, we can run out multiple cheap threats which demand that the opponent play out their (usually more expensive) answers, which is almost as good as stripping the opponent's hand. It could be the case then that *in general* we can get away with running fewer discards - most non-Stifle builds played either 4 Hymn or a 3/2 Hymn/TS split to enable the attrition game pre-TC. Perhaps 4 TC + 2 Hymn or 3 TC + 3 Hymn is the correct package now. But in the context of arguments (1) and (2), I think the discards we do run should still be Hymn to Tourach.

[wcm8]

Here are the two lists I've been testing. I've actually come to the conclusion that right now, FOUR Treasure Cruise is the right call.

19 lands (2 Trop, 1 Bayou)
1 Liliana otV
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Decay
4 TSeize
4 TCruise

OR

18 Lands
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (or a 3/3 split might be okay too)
0 Liliana main deck
Rest the same as above

Running Hymn to Tourach is still a completely valid choice, but I wouldn't feel as comfortable playing it with only 18 or 19 lands. I actually like having all the cheap discard as both proactive disruption and fuel for early/multiple TCruise. I think Discard in general gets weaker in the format with TCruise, but if you get to *choose* what you nab, it seems a little better than randomly discarding 2 from a heavy grip.

[CorpT]

4 Ponder
4 TSeize


Would you consider some number of Git Probes instead?

[wcm8]

Would you consider some number of Git Probes instead?

No. Probe does nothing for this deck really. In UR it pumps Swiftspear and Pyromancer, so it actually has utility beyond just cycling to fuel Cruise. With BUG I think we want to play *actual* spells, not a bunch of do-nothing interstitial fluff.

I don't get why anyone would cut any number of Ponder, that card is *busted* and strengthens the deck by a considerable amount. I see Delver lists playing less than 4 copies and it's just wrong. Heck, even most non-Delver blue decks should be playing all four (e.g. Miracles).

I'm about to play a Legacy FNM, so I'll report back on how the list with 4 Cruise does in the real world. But preliminary online testing makes me think that 4 is better than 3 when you're running Thoughtseize.

[FoolofaTook]

Played this tonight at the local shop:

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Silver Bullet

1 Ensnaring Bridge

Draw/Search

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

Counters

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare

Removal

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Repeal
2 Psionic Blast

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Creeping Tarpit

SB

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Envelop
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Surgical Extraction

The list did ok with a 2-0 win vs MBC, a 1-0 loss to Miracles and 2-0 win vs Burn.

The wins against MBC were just the product of blue card advantage, selection and denial being better than anything mono-black can do. The 2 MD Spell Pierces and the Spell Snare were just brutal against him and after I brought in the Envelops the two lists weren't close. I knew the match was over game 2 when he opened up on the play with Swamp, pass. I was holding a Pierce, an Envelop, a Brainstorm and a Delver with 3 lands.

The loss to Miracles was long and ended with him ultimating Jace and then playing another one and bouncing the Goyf that was going to kill him the next turn.

I had a turn late game where I looked at 25 cards and could not find one of the Psionic Blasts to kill him at 4 life. The sequence started with me tapping 4 mana and delving 4 for DTT at the end of his turn and putting Treasure Cruise and a Ponder in my hand while I put 5 land on the bottom of the pile. I then drew and TC'd into another Treasure Cruise and a Ponder, delving 6 more in the process. I Pondered twice in a row, reshuffling both times and drawing before dropping a fetch and TCing again delving another 6 and leaving me with 4 untapped mana. I Brainstormed at the end of the sequence and cursed my luck. He was hellbent at that point and all I had to do was find one of the Psionic Blasts and he was toast.

The thing that got us so late in the action was his 6 Swords to Plowshares via 2 Snapcaster Mages and him having nothing to remove Ensnaring Bridge with. I made a real mistake late in the game when I countered an Entreat the Angels. Those suckers were never going to hit me but I was paranoid and it was Miracles so I let go of a precious Counterspell. That was the difference in the first Jace hitting the table.

Postboard he would have had Council's Judgement but I'd have had another Ensnaring Bridge, 2 Envelop, 2 Krosan Grip and an Echoing Truth to choose from.

The matchup against Burn was a walkover in my favor. He got me down to 12 life by the end of turn 2 in both games but once the denial came on board he was resolving only the spells I wanted him too and he couldn't get around the numerous counters. I had a flipped Delver pressuring him in game 1 and he finally surrendered and tried to bolt it and when I put it back in my hand with Repeal he was at 1 card in hand and I had 5, including a Counterspell and a Spell Snare and it was all over at that point. I played the Delver back out again in my second main and he couldn't touch it or me again until the game was over. He did get a really bad land run in the middle part of the game and that was a key factor. The ironic thing is that I had both Psionic Blasts in my opening hand in this game and one of them wound up being the kill spell. I shuffled the other one away early with Brainstorm and a fetch because I knew they were a mixed blessing in the matchup. I boarded both of them out for game 2.

Game two he dropped Goblin Guide Turn 1 and handed me a Tropical Island. Turn 2 the Guide showed us an Abrupt Decay after which he dropped an Eidolon, giving me a choice, easy choice, and I killed the Eidolon on my turn 2 and got hit by the Guide twice again before Repealing it his attack phase and then Counterspelling it when he tried to put it back down. He Fireblasted at that point which would have got me to 3 and I Forced that, since I had Trop, USea and 2 Islands in play and I knew PoP wouldn't kill me. I dropped a DRS on my turn and and then Hydroblasted his attempt to remove it with Searing Blaze. The DRS got me back up to 9 life by removing his Goblin Guide and the Eidolon and I just sailed in from there. He tried to force a draw in the game with a PoP with me at 4 and him at 2 and I Spell Snared it hoping I wouldn't have to Force an REB in the process since he had 1 card in hand after that and 3 is the magic number in that list.

I played a friend's Elves list 4 times before the competition started and he snuffed me 4 times in a row. Twice it was bad draws on my part but the other games were just Elves being Elves. I found Ensnaring Bridge twice in the games and each time he tutored up Reclamation Sage eventually and killed it. I was playing near hellbent at that point to keep the bridge working and that forced me to counter things that I didn't really want to counter to stay low on cards. Treasure Cruise is a terrible card against Elves. It does nothing to stop them from Glimpsing and going off and it takes 3 turns minimum to cast. We were just playing main lists all 4 games and what I was thinking all 4 games is that the TC I was holding was getting me killed in the process.

[GtF]

Played this tonight at the local shop:

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Silver Bullet

1 Ensnaring Bridge

Draw/Search

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

Counters

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare

Removal

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Repeal
2 Psionic Blast

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Creeping Tarpit

SB

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Envelop
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Surgical Extraction

The list did ok with a 2-0 win vs MBC, a 1-0 loss to Miracles and 2-0 win vs Burn.

The wins against MBC were just the product of blue card advantage, selection and denial being better than anything mono-black can do. The 2 MD Spell Pierces and the Spell Snare were just brutal against him and after I brought in the Envelops the two lists weren't close. I knew the match was over game 2 when he opened up on the play with Swamp, pass. I was holding a Pierce, an Envelop, a Brainstorm and a Delver with 3 lands.

The loss to Miracles was long and ended with him ultimating Jace and then playing another one and bouncing the Goyf that was going to kill him the next turn.

I had a turn late game where I looked at 25 cards and could not find one of the Psionic Blasts to kill him at 4 life. The sequence started with me tapping 4 mana and delving 4 for DTT at the end of his turn and putting Treasure Cruise and a Ponder in my hand while I put 5 land on the bottom of the pile. I then drew and TC'd into another Treasure Cruise and a Ponder, delving 6 more in the process. I Pondered twice in a row, reshuffling both times and drawing before dropping a fetch and TCing again delving another 6 and leaving me with 4 untapped mana. I Brainstormed at the end of the sequence and cursed my luck. He was hellbent at that point and all I had to do was find one of the Psionic Blasts and he was toast.

The thing that got us so late in the action was his 6 Swords to Plowshares via 2 Snapcaster Mages and him having nothing to remove Ensnaring Bridge with. I made a real mistake late in the game when I countered an Entreat the Angels. Those suckers were never going to hit me but I was paranoid and it was Miracles so I let go of a precious Counterspell. That was the difference in the first Jace hitting the table.

Postboard he would have had Council's Judgement but I'd have had another Ensnaring Bridge, 2 Envelop, 2 Krosan Grip and an Echoing Truth to choose from.

The matchup against Burn was a walkover in my favor. He got me down to 12 life by the end of turn 2 in both games but once the denial came on board he was resolving only the spells I wanted him too and he couldn't get around the numerous counters. I had a flipped Delver pressuring him in game 1 and he finally surrendered and tried to bolt it and when I put it back in my hand with Repeal he was at 1 card in hand and I had 5, including a Counterspell and a Spell Snare and it was all over at that point. I played the Delver back out again in my second main and he couldn't touch it or me again until the game was over. He did get a really bad land run in the middle part of the game and that was a key factor. The ironic thing is that I had both Psionic Blasts in my opening hand in this game and one of them wound up being the kill spell. I shuffled the other one away early with Brainstorm and a fetch because I knew they were a mixed blessing in the matchup. I boarded both of them out for game 2.

Game two he dropped Goblin Guide Turn 1 and handed me a Tropical Island. Turn 2 the Guide showed us an Abrupt Decay after which he dropped an Eidolon, giving me a choice, easy choice, and I killed the Eidolon on my turn 2 and got hit by the Guide twice again before Repealing it his attack phase and then Counterspelling it when he tried to put it back down. He Fireblasted at that point which would have got me to 3 and I Forced that, since I had Trop, USea and 2 Islands in play and I knew PoP wouldn't kill me. I dropped a DRS on my turn and and then Hydroblasted his attempt to remove it with Searing Blaze. The DRS got me back up to 9 life by removing his Goblin Guide and the Eidolon and I just sailed in from there. He tried to force a draw in the game with a PoP with me at 4 and him at 2 and I Spell Snared it hoping I wouldn't have to Force an REB in the process since he had 1 card in hand after that and 3 is the magic number in that list.

I played a friend's Elves list 4 times before the competition started and he snuffed me 4 times in a row. Twice it was bad draws on my part but the other games were just Elves being Elves. I found Ensnaring Bridge twice in the games and each time he tutored up Reclamation Sage eventually and killed it. I was playing near hellbent at that point to keep the bridge working and that forced me to counter things that I didn't really want to counter to stay low on cards. Treasure Cruise is a terrible card against Elves. It does nothing to stop them from Glimpsing and going off and it takes 3 turns minimum to cast. We were just playing main lists all 4 games and what I was thinking all 4 games is that the TC I was holding was getting me killed in the process.

The pre-board matchup against Elves is going to be rough no matter how the deck is built. Treasure Cruise isn't much worse than any other card you could realistically play maindeck. Postboard I've found the treasure cruises to be great when you are boarding in a ton of removal and sweepers - they really lock up the game and your graveyard is full of the aforementioned spells.

[FoolofaTook]

The pre-board matchup against Elves is going to be rough no matter how the deck is built. Treasure Cruise isn't much worse than any other card you could realistically play maindeck. Postboard I've found the treasure cruises to be great when you are boarding in a ton of removal and sweepers - they really lock up the game and your graveyard is full of the aforementioned spells.

The pre-board matches are really bad but the big problem is that they go off during their turn when many of the sweepers don't work very well. I was hoping that the counters would be more effective than discard and sorcery speed sweepers but they really weren't much better. They save like two creatures from every sweeper using their bounce combos and they already have two other creatures in hand waiting for Glimpse to go off or the board to be reset. It just felt like an uphill battle every time. Glimpse of Nature has to be countered. Natural Order has to be countered. Green Sun's Zenith has to be countered. Then you have the problem that by turn 3 they can often go off with none of the above. It's just an ugly match.

[Dragonslayer_90]

The pre-board matches are really bad but the big problem is that they go off during their turn when many of the sweepers don't work very well. I was hoping that the counters would be more effective than discard and sorcery speed sweepers but they really weren't much better. They save like two creatures from every sweeper using their bounce combos and they already have two other creatures in hand waiting for Glimpse to go off or the board to be reset. It just felt like an uphill battle every time. Glimpse of Nature has to be countered. Natural Order has to be countered. Green Sun's Zenith has to be countered. Then you have the problem that by turn 3 they can often go off with none of the above. It's just an ugly match.

Elves is always tough. When constructing my sideboard I often think about whether a certain card, if not dedicated for Elves, can be brought in with even a small positive impact on the MU. I generally side in anywhere between 11-13 cards when playing Team America. It's probably our worst matchup among tier decks. Worse than Miracles. If you haven't gotten much practice against the deck, you'd best do heavy playtesting against it and figure out a game plan that works for you. Or you could come to the dark side and play Miracles...:cool:

[FoolofaTook]

Elves is always tough. When constructing my sideboard I often think about whether a certain card, if not dedicated for Elves, can be brought in with even a small positive impact on the MU. I generally side in anywhere between 11-13 cards when playing Team America. It's probably our worst matchup among tier decks. Worse than Miracles. If you haven't gotten much practice against the deck, you'd best do heavy playtesting against it and figure out a game plan that works for you. Or you could come to the dark side and play Miracles...:cool:

I can't play Miracles. Spinning the top every turn in a control build would push me towards time in every match.

The list above has some control features to it but it doesn't do that unless the opponent is playing draw-go also and spinning the top every turn.

The cards I would have brought in against Elves if we'd sideboarded were 2 Grafdiggers Cages, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Marsh Casualties and 2 Envelop. He wasn't playing any lords that I saw and that forced me to play from a very bad position when I had bridge out so I would likely have tuned the first one out. The only thing it was blocking most of the time was a few 2 power elves. It was stopping him from going to get Craterhoof to finish me but instead he was getting the Reclamation Sage and hitting me for 4 or 5 a turn when he had a tutor of some sort.

I'm thinking maybe 1 Toxic Deluge in the main, with a Psionic Blast going away. The list is controlling enough that having a singleton sweeper to go find doesn't seem bad. I'm also thinking maybe 1 Pernicious Deed instead of the Ensnaring Bridge main. The problem is that the thing that makes the list work well right now is that it has a BUG Delver threat base, cantrips and land count but a BUG Control answer set. It's a hybrid that can play off of 3 mana pretty well and I'm not sure that adding deed to that does much more for me than bridge did. The deed is still dying to Reclamation Sage if he has a tutor in hand the turn I cast it.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I can't play Miracles. Spinning the top every turn in a control build would push me towards time in every match.

The list above has some control features to it but it doesn't do that unless the opponent is playing draw-go also and spinning the top every turn.

The cards I would have brought in against Elves if we'd sideboarded were 2 Grafdiggers Cages, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Marsh Casualties and 2 Envelop. He wasn't playing any lords that I saw and that forced me to play from a very bad position when I had bridge out so I would likely have tuned the first one out. The only thing it was blocking most of the time was a few 2 power elves. It was stopping him from going to get Craterhoof to finish me but instead he was getting the Reclamation Sage and hitting me for 4 or 5 a turn when he had a tutor of some sort.

I'm thinking maybe 1 Toxic Deluge in the main, with a Psionic Blast going away. The list is controlling enough that having a singleton sweeper to go find doesn't seem bad. I'm also thinking maybe 1 Pernicious Deed instead of the Ensnaring Bridge main. The problem is that the thing that makes the list work well right now is that it has a BUG Delver threat base, cantrips and land count but a BUG Control answer set. It's a hybrid that can play off of 3 mana pretty well and I'm not sure that adding deed to that does much more for me than bridge did. The deed is still dying to Reclamation Sage if he has a tutor in hand the turn I cast it.

Heh? I assumed you tested boarded games too. Testing only the main deck against elves is going to give you skewed results. It's the sideboarded games that especially matter in this MU so I would focus on that if you want to figure out the Elves matchup. BUG Delver, unless you are playing something extremely divergent from stock lists, is going to lose the vast majority of Game One to Elves. The only time you beat Elves game one is if you get a good turn one Delver start or they're bricking real hard.

Also, I don't want to discourage you from testing different ideas and posting about them on here, but I think the direction you're trying to take the deck doesn't match up well with Team America's strategy, which is to be a tapout tempo deck game one and then have the ability to become a more rock-style deck games two and three. I think you'd be better off testing something more grindy like some sort of BUG Midrange or Control deck. In another words something that doesn't play Delver. Just my two cents.

[wcm8]

Regarding my FNM experience:

1. Four Treasure Cruise is correct. You aren't guaranteed to see multiple or even ANY copies, so maxing out on the card improves the chances of seeing it. You can drop a copy or two in SB games if you suspect Rest in Peace.
2. I am not so sure that Thoughtseize is better than Hymn. Not every opponent is going to be playing a deck that's soft to the effect, and you'd still rather have Hymn against most non-Blue decks. I think we can probably get away with running 19 lands, but maybe 20 lands + 3 Hymn is the way to go. Seize did fine, but I think I'm going to go back to Hymn for the time being. Maybe stay with 19 lands but drop the 4th Wasteland.
3. 1 Liliana is okay with 4 TCruise to find the lone copy. Plus, as a 3-drop in a 19-land deck it's not something you want to see early most of the time.
4. I never had an issue with Tarmogoyf/DRS + Cruise. I was able to refill the graveyard shortly after each Cruise so they never really suffered much from the card. This is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
5. Delver actually feels like the worst card in the deck. I am seriously considering dropping it for something else. We are playing a midrange deck (at least in comparison to other UR or RUG), and while a double Delver draw is nuts, I don't like how we don't have Burn to actually close out a game once you get the opponent in single digits. So I am considering dropping the tempo angle for something else...

[MGB]

This is one of the most popular decks in the format. I'm surprised there isn't a thread for it on here! All I see is stuff like "BUG Delver" and "UWR Delver"? What are these decks?

Here's a recent list that did well at the SCGNJ tournament:

Stephen Mann, 5th place, Sultai Delver
(http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109242)

Creatures [12]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [17]
1 Sultai Charm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [9]
2 Treasure Cruise
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [20]
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Dismember
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Snare
2 Submerge
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam

[phazonmutant]

Regarding my FNM experience:

1. Four Treasure Cruise is correct. You aren't guaranteed to see multiple or even ANY copies, so maxing out on the card improves the chances of seeing it. You can drop a copy or two in SB games if you suspect Rest in Peace.
2. I am not so sure that Thoughtseize is better than Hymn. Not every opponent is going to be playing a deck that's soft to the effect, and you'd still rather have Hymn against most non-Blue decks. I think we can probably get away with running 19 lands, but maybe 20 lands + 3 Hymn is the way to go. Seize did fine, but I think I'm going to go back to Hymn for the time being. Maybe stay with 19 lands but drop the 4th Wasteland.
3. 1 Liliana is okay with 4 TCruise to find the lone copy. Plus, as a 3-drop in a 19-land deck it's not something you want to see early most of the time.
4. I never had an issue with Tarmogoyf/DRS + Cruise. I was able to refill the graveyard shortly after each Cruise so they never really suffered much from the card. This is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
5. Delver actually feels like the worst card in the deck. I am seriously considering dropping it for something else. We are playing a midrange deck (at least in comparison to other UR or RUG), and while a double Delver draw is nuts, I don't like how we don't have Burn to actually close out a game once you get the opponent in single digits. So I am considering dropping the tempo angle for something else...

Very interesting idea with cutting the Delvers. A local has been playing BUG Delver with Stifle and Hymn fairly successfully. It seems awful since you're stranding cards in hand with Stifle and then Hymning them, but turns out they're both just very disruptive and good on their own. So running with both ideas, here's a list I did some testing with against lordofthepit playing Shardless BUG:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit

After the games it was very clear that you're right 4 Cruise is right. The deck was surprisingly good, and I feel like I got a bit unlucky in some preboard games in not drawing my cantrips or creatures or removal. Strix is insanely good against this deck, but Deluge out of the board was a great answer, maybe it should be main, and maybe there should be multiple. In one game I got to cast Cruise 3 times, and had threshold again a turn later. Stifle was insane on the play, and decent on the draw against Shardless. I might continue testing a list like this. I'm not convinced by Gitaxian Probe, probably it should be a Disfigure and a Cruise. Another land is reasonable too.

[KobeBryan]

I was very skeptical with the 4 TC's but i ran a gauntlet and damn 4 is the right number

I was never unhappy to see it.

However, we do need to address the issue with how to deal with opposing TC's since we use all of our gy to draw, which makes depend on their gy for our goyfs.

[FoolofaTook]

Also, I don't want to discourage you from testing different ideas and posting about them on here, but I think the direction you're trying to take the deck doesn't match up well with Team America's strategy, which is to be a tapout tempo deck game one and then have the ability to become a more rock-style deck games two and three. I think you'd be better off testing something more grindy like some sort of BUG Midrange or Control deck. In another words something that doesn't play Delver. Just my two cents.

Right now the 3 best creatures in the meta are Delver, DRS and Goyf. Having them in a BUG shell that will always have 1 or 2 mana open after turn 1 and will sit on 2 mana until the mid-game is pretty powerful.

My argument for going with counters instead of discard is that the way the meta seems to be stacking up the discard is beginning to look pretty frail after the first couple of turns. You can't use it on their turn when they're casting things designed to gut you like a trout and these days that includes refilling their hand, which it didn't used too.

Look at my build as a half-tapout build that taps out half it's mana every turn to play timely removal and cheap under-costed threats and then holds half it's mana for the opponent's turn.

[CorpT]

Right now the 3 best creatures in the meta are Delver, DRS and Goyf. Having them in a BUG shell that will always have 1 or 2 mana open after turn 1 and will sit on 2 mana until the mid-game is pretty powerful.

My argument for going with counters instead of discard is that the way the meta seems to be stacking up the discard is beginning to look pretty frail after the first couple of turns. You can't use it on their turn when they're casting things designed to gut you like a trout and these days that includes refilling their hand, which it didn't used too.

Look at my build as a half-tapout build that taps out half it's mana every turn to play timely removal and cheap under-costed threats and then holds half it's mana for the opponent's turn.

He's probably not talking about the Counterspells (which are pretty mediocre) but the really bad cards like Repeal, Psionic Blast and Ensaring Bridge.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Very interesting idea with cutting the Delvers. A local has been playing BUG Delver with Stifle and Hymn fairly successfully. It seems awful since you're stranding cards in hand with Stifle and then Hymning them, but turns out they're both just very disruptive and good on their own. So running with both ideas, here's a list I did some testing with against lordofthepit playing Shardless BUG:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit

After the games it was very clear that you're right 4 Cruise is right. The deck was surprisingly good, and I feel like I got a bit unlucky in some preboard games in not drawing my cantrips or creatures or removal. Strix is insanely good against this deck, but Deluge out of the board was a great answer, maybe it should be main, and maybe there should be multiple. In one game I got to cast Cruise 3 times, and had threshold again a turn later. Stifle was insane on the play, and decent on the draw against Shardless. I might continue testing a list like this. I'm not convinced by Gitaxian Probe, probably it should be a Disfigure and a Cruise. Another land is reasonable too.

How did you feel with the threat count in this deck? Seems rather light but I'm assuming Treasure Cruise makes that less of an issue than it'd otherwise would be.

[FoolofaTook]

He's probably not talking about the Counterspells (which are pretty mediocre) but the really bad cards like Repeal, Psionic Blast and Ensaring Bridge.

Repeal really isn't bad in this list. It's big card advantage against the people trying to remove our threats. I drew 5 cards on Friday night and saved 4 creatures in the process in 5 games. Repeal invalidated Smallpox (hard), Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning Bolt x2.

If you see it as a way to return the opponent's creatures and things then it's a mediocre card even though it replaces itself in the process but it usually gets played to put your own thing back in hand very cheaply and it causes really annoying card advantage swings for the opponent who thinks he has things counted out when he doesn't.

I saved 2 Delvers and 2 DRS and got to play all of them back out in addition to drawing another card.

If you're not trying to save a 1cc or 2cc creature then you lose so much tempo putting it back into your hand that it's probably not worth the play. A flipped Delver comes back for :u: and draws a card and then it lands on the board as a Delver of Secrets the same turn, since your opponent will wait for Delver to flip to kill it most of the time and take it out during the attack phase.

If you think Counterspells are mediocre in this meta you haven't had anybody Dig Through Time on you yet. Just wait, you'll get there.

[carnifex]

On the topic of trying to preempt opposing treasure cruises, I really have to chime in on the notion that dimir charm's stock has risen in the current metagame.

Prior to the printing of treasure cruise I ran a miser's copy and was always very impressed with it. The number of powerful sorceries and creatures that it deals with has already been pointed to in recent posts. Now, however, it is likely indeed that we are going to be staring down opposing treasure cruises as well. The charm costs 2, granted, and you will sometimes find yourself in situations where you simply can't justify holding up the mana for hopes of countering a cruise instead of progressing your board, but the charm is significantly more flexible than envelop, particularly because it kills many creatures that are run side-by-side treasure cruise, namely: deathrites, swiftspear (on your own turn, at least, since even a reactive spell only puts its power to 2), unflipped delvers, young pyromancers, and stoneforge mystics if and when UWR delver adopts the cruise.

Further still, the often despised 3rd mode actually gains marginal utility via performing a reasonable thought scour impression. I imagine this to be a weak argument in its own right, and it will not be a mode you want to jam just in the interest of being cute or being unnecessarily aggressive in hoping to maximize your cruises, but it will no doubt come up more often than it used to. It used to be viable just when you were desperate and needed to dig into a relevant topdeck, or if an opponent main-phased a sensei's top (which means, almost always, that they are trying to stick a JTMS) and you wanted to screw their draw.

The only qualm I have with dimir charm is that it does not hit dig through time, although envelop doesn't either, and I suspect - at least until dig through time lists get more of the limelight - that treasure cruise is bound to be the more ubiquitous of the two delve spells.

[FoolofaTook]

Dig Through Time is the most powerful spell I've seen since Ancestral Recall. It's not quite the same power level because it only gets you +1 card and it relies on delve but when you can actually cast it it's better than AR. 2 out of the next 7 and garbage on the bottom is just a killer effect on the opponent's end phase. I had Miracles go hellbent against me because he thought DTT was going to kill him. I countered the Force and was staring at 4 cards in hand to zero for him the next turn. I looked at 25 cards between the DTT at end of turn and the end of my first main phase.

That's just ridiculous dig. Didn't find the win but that's just luck. I had somewhere between 30 and 35 cards in my library when I began the run and missed on the two win-cons despite looking at 25 overall.

[btm10]

Repeal really isn't bad in this list. It's big card advantage against the people trying to remove our threats. I drew 5 cards on Friday night and saved 4 creatures in the process in 5 games. Repeal invalidated Smallpox (hard), Swords to Plowshares, and Lightning Bolt x2.

If you see it as a way to return the opponent's creatures and things then it's a mediocre card even though it replaces itself in the process but it usually gets played to put your own thing back in hand very cheaply and it causes really annoying card advantage swings for the opponent who thinks he has things counted out when he doesn't.

I saved 2 Delvers and 2 DRS and got to play all of them back out in addition to drawing another card.

If you're not trying to save a 1cc or 2cc creature then you lose so much tempo putting it back into your hand that it's probably not worth the play. A flipped Delver comes back for :u: and draws a card and then it lands on the board as a Delver of Secrets the same turn, since your opponent will wait for Delver to flip to kill it most of the time and take it out during the attack phase.

If you think Counterspells are mediocre in this meta you haven't had anybody Dig Through Time on you yet. Just wait, you'll get there.

In every circumstance where you used Repeal, a counter of some sort would've been superior, especially against Smallpox. You were card neutral in the other cases, but even "losing a card" by countering the removal spells is better than running something narrow like Repeal because a counter (in this case, I'm primarily thinking of Spell Pierce and Daze) is more flexible. As for Counterspell, leaving UU up on your opponent's turn is a big cost because the deck isn't configured around casting spells for UU. If you want a 2 mana (mostly) hard counter, Negate and Mana Leak are better because they allow you to counter off of U.


On the topic of trying to preempt opposing treasure cruises, I really have to chime in on the notion that dimir charm's stock has risen in the current metagame.

Prior to the printing of treasure cruise I ran a miser's copy and was always very impressed with it. The number of powerful sorceries and creatures that it deals with has already been pointed to in recent posts. Now, however, it is likely indeed that we are going to be staring down opposing treasure cruises as well. The charm costs 2, granted, and you will sometimes find yourself in situations where you simply can't justify holding up the mana for hopes of countering a cruise instead of progressing your board, but the charm is significantly more flexible than envelop, particularly because it kills many creatures that are run side-by-side treasure cruise, namely: deathrites, swiftspear (on your own turn, at least, since even a reactive spell only puts its power to 2), unflipped delvers, young pyromancers, and stoneforge mystics if and when UWR delver adopts the cruise.

Further still, the often despised 3rd mode actually gains marginal utility via performing a reasonable thought scour impression. I imagine this to be a weak argument in its own right, and it will not be a mode you want to jam just in the interest of being cute or being unnecessarily aggressive in hoping to maximize your cruises, but it will no doubt come up more often than it used to. It used to be viable just when you were desperate and needed to dig into a relevant topdeck, or if an opponent main-phased a sensei's top (which means, almost always, that they are trying to stick a JTMS) and you wanted to screw their draw.

The only qualm I have with dimir charm is that it does not hit dig through time, although envelop doesn't either, and I suspect - at least until dig through time lists get more of the limelight - that treasure cruise is bound to be the more ubiquitous of the two delve spells.

The miser's Dimir Charm is one of my favorite cards to draw. I can't think of a time where I had it and wished it was something else. The fact that we just got a juicy new target for it makes it that much better. I got to use the third mode twice in testing yesterday - once to clear two lands that I had Brainstormed back (and incidentally turn on Treasure Cruise for U) at my opponent's EOT, and once to snag a Top (and to my surprise, an Entreat) my Miracles opponent had flipped.

As for Delver being the weakest card - I like the Delver-less lists aside from the fact that it's a slower deck that continues to run Daze. I think that without Delver you lose the only reason for running a card that is straight garbage after turn 4 in almost all games that aren't about killing quickly with Delver.

On a more constructive note, I've done a few games of two-fisted testing with the Delver-less list wcm8 posted, but -4 Daze, -1 Ponder, +2 Snacaster Mage, +1 Dimir Charm, +1 Pierce, +1 Land. I'm thinking about Mana Leak over Pierce since this makes the deck even less about tempo, but Snapcaster has been amazing.

[FoolofaTook]

In every circumstance where you used Repeal, a counter of some sort would've been superior, especially against Smallpox. You were card neutral in the other cases, but even "losing a card" by countering the removal spells is better than running something narrow like Repeal because a counter (in this case, I'm primarily thinking of Spell Pierce and Daze) is more flexible. As for Counterspell, leaving UU up on your opponent's turn is a big cost because the deck isn't configured around casting spells for UU. If you want a 2 mana (mostly) hard counter, Negate and Mana Leak are better because they allow you to counter off of U.

I wrote a long reply to this listing specific examples of where Repeal was superior to most Legacy counter spells and then I realized that until you actually played the card you wouldn't really understand what it does. Delver of Secrets and Deathrite Shaman are two of the strongest cards in Legacy right now. The ability to save them and replay them and not give up a card in the process is really strong in most matchups. They're nightmare cards for the opponent. They cost next to nothing to cast and have an out-sized effect on play once they're active. Think about it.

The most-played removal spells in Legacy all require counter backup to resolve successfully if you have a Repeal in hand. That includes Abrupt Decay.

[CorpT]

I wrote a long reply to this listing specific examples of where Repeal was superior to most Legacy counter spells and then I realized that until you actually played the card you wouldn't really understand what it does.

People don't need to play Repeal, Ensnaring Bridge and Psionic Blast to know they're bad cards and have no place in competitive BUG Delver lists. We can read the cards.

[iostream]

The ability to save them and replay them and not give up a card in the process is really strong in most matchups. They're nightmare cards for the opponent. They cost next to nothing to cast and have an out-sized effect on play once they're active. Think about it.

I dunno, when I get my Delver or DRS Jace-bounced, I'm pretty upset even though I haven't lost a card per se. Both Delver and DRS need a turn to set up. You are losing a lot of tempo when they get bounced. Bouncing my own guy just to blank Abrupt Decay (since that's the only card that can't be addressed by regular counterspells) sounds unbelievably weak.

[wcm8]

STP aside, I'd rather play Golgari Charm for the regeneration mode to 'counter' removal. That way you also have a sweeper for the somewhat ubiquitous X/1 threats in the format. Repeal is actually a pretty decent card and I've played it to good effect in Modern, but it's not something I'd really consider for a BUG Tempo list. I'll grant that there are some scenarios where it's great, but it can also be dead quite often.

Psionic Blast is interesting since I do think the lack of Burn is a reason why BUG never feels quite as 'tempo-y' as its Bolt-slinging cousins, but I don't know if 3cmc makes the cut here. It's something I *would* actually consider testing. Intriguing.

Dimir Charm: Great discussion on this one. The poster who brought this up was absolutely correct about it being useful in a format with lots of small creatures + Treasure Cruise (and is also a fair beating against Miracles and miscellaneous combo decks.) Maybe this could work as a 2-of.

Lots of cards to think about. Coming to a 'perfect' list is pretty much impossible, and there is value in running singletons of a lot of the cards being discussed. I think we *should* maintain the internal consistency of BUG and run 4 copies of the most important cards, but there is some wiggle room to allow for alternatives.

Also wanted to mention, Delver is a necessity for BUG Tempo with Daze. If you drop it, you are obviously going to move into a more midrange/control direction, which is a discussion for another thread.

edit: Dimir Charm is great. Maybe this is the card that takes the Hymn/TSeize slot??

[FoolofaTook]

I dunno, when I get my Delver or DRS Jace-bounced, I'm pretty upset even though I haven't lost a card per se. Both Delver and DRS need a turn to set up. You are losing a lot of tempo when they get bounced. Bouncing my own guy just to blank Abrupt Decay (since that's the only card that can't be addressed by regular counterspells) sounds unbelievably weak.

I'm usually pretty happy when my Delver or DRS gets bounced by Jace. There are many worse things that he can be doing to you and if he keeps bouncing eventually things break down. That said, there's a difference between having an opposing permanent bounce your delver and doing it yourself in response to removal or to be able to block and also keep it and get another card in the process.

The gist of the argument is that there are very few things that BUG Delver can be doing after turn 3 or so that are better than playing a Delver or DRS. Preserving the ability to do that without incurring card disadvantage, and in fact causing the opponent to have card disadvantage is pretty powerful overall.

I'm already playing 9 counters. It's not like Repeal is worse than counters 10 and 11 because really it's not. Would it be worse than counter 8 and 9? You could make that argument and I wouldn't feel pressed to try to refute it. Would Repeal be worse than Abrupt Decay 3 and 4? Most definitely.

The question I still haven't completely answered to my satisfaction at this point is whether the 2 main list Spell Pierces are better than 2 Dazes. I believe they are because half the time I'm on the draw game 1 and the Dazes definitely are weaker on the the draw. There are times when I am sitting on a Delver and a Spell Pierce in my opening grip on the play when I really wish I had a Daze instead. I sit on a blue source in that situation and wait until turn 2 to play the Delver. It's better than losing the Delver to a 1-on-1 trade.

[FoolofaTook]

STP aside, I'd rather play Golgari Charm for the regeneration mode to 'counter' removal. That way you also have a sweeper for the somewhat ubiquitous X/1 threats in the format. Repeal is actually a pretty decent card and I've played it to good effect in Modern, but it's not something I'd really consider for a BUG Tempo list. I'll grant that there are some scenarios where it's great, but it can also be dead quite often.

I believe that other than Counterspell, Ponder and Brainstorm there is no card in the list that is dead less often than Repeal. That's because it cantrips in addition to doing something that is tempo-y at worst and quite effective at times.


Psionic Blast is interesting since I do think the lack of Burn is a reason why BUG never feels quite as 'tempo-y' as its Bolt-slinging cousins, but I don't know if 3cmc makes the cut here. It's something I *would* actually consider testing. Intriguing.

I'm going to take this to 1 in the main and leave it there. I don't ever want to have 2 of these in the opening hand although I'm perfectly willing to carry 1 until the bitter end if I have too. The reach is good to have. There are so many games where BUG gets the opponent down low and has trouble finishing.

I'm probably going Golgari Charm as the replacement although I am also considering a main list Toxic Deluge or Pernicious Deed.

[iostream]

edit: Dimir Charm is great. Maybe this is the card that takes the Hymn/TSeize slot??Maybe a 2/2 split, but I can hardly imagine running 3-4 Charm.

[hofzge]

I cannot really understand why there is no earnest discussion in any of the Delver threads on Dig through Time versus Treasure Cruise. It seems as if everyone is saying: It worked for UR Delver and also Treasure Cruise only costs :u: so let's just take that one.

Modern style UR Delver is a 17 land deck, plays more cantrips like Gitaxian Probe and thus draws way more threats compared to Team America. As it has less land and more threats Treasure Cruise is a better card in that deck.
For Team America which plays 19-20 land and Deathrite Shaman and less cantrips I think the effect "look at the top 7 cards and choose 2" is a lot stronger than "draw 3 cards".
It ensures you draw 2 threats or Force of Will & blue card or whatever sideboard card you are looking for.

Now someone will point out: You have to pay :u::u: instead of :u:.
First: you can play this card in your opponents turn and that alone is very strong. It makes it so you can pay :2::u: or :3::u: without ending up tapped out.
Second: Once you are able to delve 4-6 cards in Team America you will surely have 2-3 lands 2 of which should be blue.

I think the two draw spells will push all decks into more midrangy fields if you cannot use the cards like UR Delver as burn.

ATM I play this:
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Bayou
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Dig Through Time
4x Force of Will
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Ponder
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Disfigure
1x Dismember
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Notion Thief
1x Pithing Needle
2x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique

On another note: Could we shave a land for a fetchland?

[phazonmutant]

Now someone will point out: You have to pay :u::u: instead of :u:.

You have to pay :u::u: instead of :u:.

More seriously, I don't expect to have UU more than like two thirds of the time around turn 3-4 against a Wasteland deck. Also 1 vs 2 is a big difference in playing around Daze. Those are independent of tapping out or not. And let's be real, Team America taps out most turns if things are going well.

Also nice double Bayou, triple double-blue spell manabase. Although to be fair, it's not realistic to play 4 Hymns and 2 Lili without the two Bayous.

[Admiral_Arzar]

You have to pay :u::u: instead of :u:.

More seriously, I don't expect to have UU more than like two thirds of the time around turn 3-4 against a Wasteland deck. Also 1 vs 2 is a big difference in playing around Daze. Those are independent of tapping out or not. And let's be real, Team America taps out most turns if things are going well.

Also nice double Bayou, triple double-blue spell manabase. Although to be fair, it's not realistic to play 4 Hymns and 2 Lili without the two Bayous.

I would consider Dig Through Time in a list that dumped the double-black spells for Stifle or Thoughtseize and thus didn't need to play multiple Bayous. True-Name Nemesis would be a natural inclusion in such a list, but at this point we're moving towards BUG midrange rather than Team America. Still interesting to think about though.

[AngryTroll]

Scavenging Ooze might be worth keeping in mind as the format moves forwards. The Ooze is already fantastic against opposing Deathrites and, although mana-intensive, can keep opponents off of Treasure Cruise for the entire game. It also dodges concern about the size of our Tarmogoyfs if both players are Delving away their graveyards. Goyf almost always counts a creature in a graveyard, so Ooze should always be at least a 3/3. Ooze is obviously worse in multiples than Goyf unless both players are Delving and the Goyfs are small.

I'm not saying we should replace Goyf, but I'll be keeping Ooze in mind as I playtest to see how it compares to Goyf.

[wcm8]

I've experimented with cutting some number of Goyf to fit in a couple GSZ and an Ooze. Not outside the realm of possibility.

[YamiJoey]

Rebuilt from the ground up:

Permanents: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Envelop
2 Spell Pierce
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Main points of interest:

3 Goyf/1 Scooze: It's a simple swap for now. We think Scooze will be good in the format because of Delve, and it gets bigger than a Goyf quick enough. Too many might get awkward.
4 Seize/0 Hymn: Seize is good at getting Dredge online, whilst stripping Cruises out of people's hands. Hymn would be fine, as it's another card advantage engine, but it's slow, and we want to be casting Spells fast.
4 Decay: The lack of Hymns means we can go bigger on removal. Decay is the best, so that's settled.
1 Dimir Charm: I wanted Envelop and Disfigure in the main. This will have to do. I was against it, but we can give anything a shot.
3 Treasure Cruise: The new toy. I would like to draw three, yes please.
1 Bayou/2 Trop: Mixed to make Scooze better.
0 additional threats: I usually have Library, Lili, TNN, or something in the main. Cruise is taking all of these slots.

2 Disfigure/2 Envelop: The relevant modes of Dimir Charm. Envelop is good against the Cruise decks we'll be seeing pop up, but also against combo decks and Miracles.
BB, Library, and Jace: Miracles. Because it's the best deck in the format, so I want my plan to be unbeatable. I have up to a 14 card sideboard for this.
Lili: Helps beat the mirror a little, but is also a good 'bomb' against combo. A resolved and protected Lili is beaten only by flooding out into an Ad Nauseam or PiF. I like those odds.

[FoolofaTook]

Scavenging Ooze might be worth keeping in mind as the format moves forwards. The Ooze is already fantastic against opposing Deathrites and, although mana-intensive, can keep opponents off of Treasure Cruise for the entire game. It also dodges concern about the size of our Tarmogoyfs if both players are Delving away their graveyards. Goyf almost always counts a creature in a graveyard, so Ooze should always be at least a 3/3. Ooze is obviously worse in multiples than Goyf unless both players are Delving and the Goyfs are small.

I'm not saying we should replace Goyf, but I'll be keeping Ooze in mind as I playtest to see how it compares to Goyf.

Ooze doesn't compare to Goyf. The raw power level just isn't there and it's bad in multiples. As a 2-of maybe to supplement Deathrite Shaman's GY control and for when RiP has made Goyf into a lamb.

[FoolofaTook]

Rebuilt from the ground up:

Permanents: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
1 Dimir Charm
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Envelop
2 Spell Pierce
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bitterblossom
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Main points of interest:

3 Goyf/1 Scooze: It's a simple swap for now. We think Scooze will be good in the format because of Delve, and it gets bigger than a Goyf quick enough. Too many might get awkward.
4 Seize/0 Hymn: Seize is good at getting Dredge online, whilst stripping Cruises out of people's hands. Hymn would be fine, as it's another card advantage engine, but it's slow, and we want to be casting Spells fast.
4 Decay: The lack of Hymns means we can go bigger on removal. Decay is the best, so that's settled.
1 Dimir Charm: I wanted Envelop and Disfigure in the main. This will have to do. I was against it, but we can give anything a shot.
3 Treasure Cruise: The new toy. I would like to draw three, yes please.
1 Bayou/2 Trop: Mixed to make Scooze better.
0 additional threats: I usually have Library, Lili, TNN, or something in the main. Cruise is taking all of these slots.

2 Disfigure/2 Envelop: The relevant modes of Dimir Charm. Envelop is good against the Cruise decks we'll be seeing pop up, but also against combo decks and Miracles.
BB, Library, and Jace: Miracles. Because it's the best deck in the format, so I want my plan to be unbeatable. I have up to a 14 card sideboard for this.
Lili: Helps beat the mirror a little, but is also a good 'bomb' against combo. A resolved and protected Lili is beaten only by flooding out into an Ad Nauseam or PiF. I like those odds.

Is Thoughtseize better than Stifle in that type of configuration?

Is it better than Spell Pierce x2 and Counterspell x2?

It just seems so terribly weak against Miracles and opposing Delver lists. Basically it seems weak against anything running Brainstorm.

[btm10]

BB, Library, and Jace: Miracles. Because it's the best deck in the format, so I want my plan to be unbeatable. I have up to a 14 card sideboard.

I remain unconvinced that Miracles is the best deck in the format, but that's a separate issue. If you're particularly concerned with beating it, then I'd definitely be running a second Needle in the board, probably over the third Golgari Charm. Also, not a fan of Envelop over Pierce or Negate. The ability to hit non-sorcery spells is relevant against not only Miracles, but also Sneak, Painter, Reanimator, Storm, Blade decks, Burn, and in the mirror. I prefer Negate because it's a hard counter, but if you want a more tempo-y play, then I can see a rationale for Pierce. Envelop just doesn't do enough.

[Manipulato]

I remain unconvinced that Miracles is the best deck in the format, but that's a separate issue. If you're particularly concerned with beating it, then I'd definitely be running a second Needle in the board, probably over the third Golgari Charm. Also, not a fan of Envelop over Pierce or Negate. The ability to hit non-sorcery spells is relevant against not only Miracles, but also Sneak, Painter, Reanimator, Storm, Blade decks, Burn, and in the mirror. I prefer Negate because it's a hard counter, but if you want a more tempo-y play, then I can see a rationale for Pierce. Envelop just doesn't do enough.

I tried Envelop in the past too and was not that happy with it because it's a most of the time a really special SB card and not flexible enough for my taste. Every time I played it I Immediatley replaced it after the turney with additional Pierces.

[iostream]

I remain unconvinced that Miracles is the best deck in the format, but that's a separate issue. If you're particularly concerned with beating it, then I'd definitely be running a second Needle in the board, probably over the third Golgari Charm. Also, not a fan of Envelop over Pierce or Negate. The ability to hit non-sorcery spells is relevant against not only Miracles, but also Sneak, Painter, Reanimator, Storm, Blade decks, Burn, and in the mirror. I prefer Negate because it's a hard counter, but if you want a more tempo-y play, then I can see a rationale for Pierce. Envelop just doesn't do enough.
The Negate idea seems interesting. I find that it's often hard to soft-counter Treasure Cruise because it's usually played later in the game (when people have 3+ lands) for 1 mana. It's also good against Miracles. But 2 mana might be too costly for this deck to keep up.

[btm10]

The Negate idea seems interesting. I find that it's often hard to soft-counter Treasure Cruise because it's usually played later in the game (when people have 3+ lands) for 1 mana. It's also good against Miracles. But 2 mana might be too costly for this deck to keep up.

I ran it at my local last week and it was great every time I drew it. I'm considering Mana Leak because it's more flexible, but I think I'm happier with Negate just being a hard counter. My instincts are generally to be more controlling, so my style is usually to have a creature or two and just hold mana up to protect them with Negate. I've also been on Thoughtseize since switching to Cruise, which also helps with holding up 1U. I run Negate mostly for the Miracles and Show and Tell matchups, but they've been doing work in a lot of other places, too.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

The Negate idea seems interesting. I find that it's often hard to soft-counter Treasure Cruise because it's usually played later in the game (when people have 3+ lands) for 1 mana. It's also good against Miracles. But 2 mana might be too costly for this deck to keep up.

What about Duress? The card never disappoints.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk 2

[YamiJoey]

With only a single Bayou and DRS, I'd rather just play Counterspell. Christ, Mana Leak is better than Negate. Because who the fuck is playing around Mana Leak anyway?

[FoolofaTook]

With only a single Bayou and DRS, I'd rather just play Counterspell. Christ, Mana Leak is better than Negate. Because who the fuck is playing around Mana Leak anyway?

Counterspell is good in this meta. 2x not 4x. Countering just about anything from the midgame on can be a win but
countering TC and NO is a must.

[btm10]

With only a single Bayou and DRS, I'd rather just play Counterspell. Christ, Mana Leak is better than Negate. Because who the fuck is playing around Mana Leak anyway?

I'm less concerned with people deliberately playing around Leak than I am with them incidentally playing around Leak. Not that Leak isn't worth testing (I'm testing it now), but decks like Elves and 12post can easily have a pile of mana left over after casting a key spell like NO or Show and Tell, rendering Leak effectively dead. This is also relevant against Miracles (games fo long and they are good at making land drops) and Show and Tell decks (due to Sol lands) in thr midgame.

In BUG midrange/control, I prefer Counterspell for a number of reasons. But in Delver, having to hold up UU essentially locks you out of any BB haymakers like Liliana and Hymn and forces you to hold UU up in many situations where holding up UB or UG would be better, especially if you've already shown Dimir Charm to your opponent.

[FoolofaTook]

I tried Envelop in the past too and was not that happy with it because it's a most of the time a really special SB card and not flexible enough for my taste. Every time I played it I Immediatley replaced it after the turney with additional Pierces.

I was really skeptical about Envelop also. I put 2 in the SB because the meta has changed a lot with the delve spells. It has real targets in many of the top tier lists at this point.

Miracles - Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Council's Judgement and Ponder, although I'd probably never counter Ponder unless they were in top deck mode without a top on the board. Envelop is great vs Miracles assuming you are not boarding out Spell Pierce to get it in. I board out a solo Spell Snare (catches only Counterbalance and Rest in Peace, neither of which will likely kill a list featuring Abrupt Decay) and Toxic Deluge and the Envelops are all gravy from there.

Elves - Glimpse of Nature, Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order. Spell Pierce out because after turn 2 it will not be worth anything at all and the way Elves plays spells it frequently isn't worth anything on turn 2.

BUG Delver - Whichever discard they are featuring, Treasure Cruise, Ponder when they are in top deck mode. Sometimes in, sometimes not. If they're not playing 3+ Treasure Cruise I just leave it out.

UR Delver - Treasure Cruise, Chain Lightning, Ponder in topdeck mode, probably not Gitaxian Probe although I could see countering it mid-game or if you were holding an early hand that had strengths and weaknesses you couldn't afford to reveal. Always in against UR Delver, must stop Treasure Cruise because 1-for-1 their assets are inferior to ours. Stopping Chain Lightning and Forked Bolt from killing our DRS and Delver (and sometimes us) is a plus.

Sneak and Show - Show and Tell, Gitaxian Probe, Pyroclasm, Ponder if they're in topdeck mode. Have not played this matchup yet with Envelop. Good targets in it but I'm not sure how the mix will work with BEB and Hydroblasts already tuning in for Sneak Attack, Blood Moon and Through the Breach.

D&T - No targets.

Esperblade - Targets but not worth the tune. Too many killer assets are permanents.

Burn - Lots of targets, not sure if it's worth the tune or not. I beat Burn 2-0 last week and I don't think I put the Envelops in. I put in the 3 blue blasts and kept the Spell Pierces and Spell Snare in.

Reanimator - Envelop is like Reanimator's personal demon. Play it alongside Spell Pierce and you'll have them out-countered on the cheap.

Before Treasure Cruise this would have been a "it's very good against Elves and Miracles" post. Treasure Cruise really changed things.

[FoolofaTook]

Went 3-0 tonight at the shop. Beat Enchantress 2-1, UR Delver 2-1 and then Miracles 2-1. Last week was MBC 2-0, Miracles 0-1, Burn 2-0 so I'm feeling pretty salty about the list at the moment.

Only changes this week were -1 Ensnaring Bridge main for +1 Toxic Deluge and -1 Psionic Blast main for +1 Dimir Charm. Really liked the Dimir Charm. It's there for good. The sideboard was -1 Toxic Deluge (to main) and +1 Pernicious Deed, -1 Marsh Casualties and +1 Darkblast. The Darkblast won me the match against UR Delver, killing a Delver of Secrets, 2 Young Pyromancers and a Grim Lavamancer in game 3 and turning it into a walkover. Thinking about going 2 Darkblasts in the SB at this point although not sure what will come out.

The Miracles player, a different player than the guy who beat me 1-0 last week was a bit upset at the end of the match because he thought I was meta-gaming against Miracles with the Envelops and the Dimir Charm. He's a really nice guy so I was a bit surprised that he was bothered by the match. I laid out my list for him including the SB and detailed exactly what I was meta-gaming against and I think he was ok at that point.

For the record I'm meta-gaming against Treasure Cruise, UR Delver, BUG Control and Miracles in that order. I figure if I can have a positive matchup against that card and those 3 lists I'm probably going to be ok overall. Elves is a problem but I think it is manageable in the 75 I have now if not a positive matchup. The only list that really worries me at the moment is UR Delver and I still haven't decided if the list is good enough against them.

Edit: whoops, missed a big change. Took out the Creeping Tarpit and put in a Soldevi Excavations for it. The idea was to speed up Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time a little and it worked. Sacing an untapped island puts it in the GY and then tapping the Soldevi Excavations for :1::u: and delving the island gives you 3 mana instead of 2 on that turn. A byproduct of the change was the game 2 win over Miracles when I scryed my way to the Abrupt Decay I needed to get rid of Rest In Peace and beat him with a Goyf and DRS. Scrying every turn at end of turn is really strong in the control mirror. I was putting everything I saw that would not remove RiP on the bottom and looking at a minimum of 2 cards a turn trying to find the 4 Abrupt Decays and 2 Krosan Grips.

[YamiJoey]

I'm less concerned with people deliberately playing around Leak than I am with them incidentally playing around Leak. Not that Leak isn't worth testing (I'm testing it now), but decks like Elves and 12post can easily have a pile of mana left over after casting a key spell like NO or Show and Tell, rendering Leak effectively dead. This is also relevant against Miracles (games fo long and they are good at making land drops) and Show and Tell decks (due to Sol lands) in thr midgame.

In BUG midrange/control, I prefer Counterspell for a number of reasons. But in Delver, having to hold up UU essentially locks you out of any BB haymakers like Liliana and Hymn and forces you to hold UU up in many situations where holding up UB or UG would be better, especially if you've already shown Dimir Charm to your opponent.

You know that it's basically impossible to hold up UU without also holding up basically any other combination in this deck, right? Sea, Sea, Bayou, which would be a rare Fetch in this version, would leave me on cast Seize (or maybe Goyf if I have a fourth Land) hold up UU, BB, UB. If DRS is in the mis you have literally whatever you need all of the time. Holding up UU is not hard.

I get what you mean about Mana Leak, but it might still be worthwhile. T1 DRS -> Seize Leak, or Waste Leak, or whatever. Seems pretty nuts. You can even Daze -> Leak -> Waste. That's be a very good opener. It's not supposed to be good late, it's supposed to be good when it matters. I have actually talked myself into Counterspell again.

[btm10]

You know that it's basically impossible to hold up UU without also holding up basically any other combination in this deck, right? Sea, Sea, Bayou, which would be a rare Fetch in this version, would leave me on cast Seize (or maybe Goyf if I have a fourth Land) hold up UU, BB, UB. If DRS is in the mis you have literally whatever you need all of the time. Holding up UU is not hard.

I get what you mean about Mana Leak, but it might still be worthwhile. T1 DRS -> Seize Leak, or Waste Leak, or whatever. Seems pretty nuts. You can even Daze -> Leak -> Waste. That's be a very good opener. It's not supposed to be good late, it's supposed to be good when it matters. I have actually talked myself into Counterspell again.

With DRS out, it's almost always correct to leave Bayou up and you usually want to use your other mana to either disrupt your opponent, draw more cards, or play threats. In your example (or even with Sea, Trop, Bayou), I couldn't play out a Delver, Ponder, or Brainstorm and leave up UU. I could play a Deathrite or a Thoughtseize, but every other line would take me off of Counterspell.

As for Leak, I'm currently less concerned with being able to counter Creatures than I am with being able to cover my bases against noncreature spells like Planeswalkers and combo pieces, so the card going long matters.

[YamiJoey]

Unless you're against Reanimator or Dredge, I'd rather have Sea up with DRS. I have Ux for Spellcasting, and can burn them if need be. You rarely have either the opportunity, or the need to Exile a Creature. My fetches in a list that looked something like this would be very skewed toward the Spells I'm expecting to cast:

4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Seize
4 Decay
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Force
2 Cruise

T1 Sea -> Delver is good and fine, but I'm very likely to get a Trop very shortly after. Black becomes much more of a supporting role in this kind of a deck, and you will only ever really need one per turn. You're much more of a Tropical Delver deck with Black than a Sea Delver with Green.

[wcm8]

EDIT: Assuming you can change an opponents Treasure Cruise and/or Dig Through Time to target yourself.

You can't.

You could if they said, "Target player [does X]" -- e.g. Ancestral Recall. Unfortunately these spells can't be redirected. The only way to 'steal' those sort of cards is via something like Commandeer.

[LEH]

You can't.

You could if they said, "Target player [does X]" -- e.g. Ancestral Recall. Unfortunately these spells can't be redirected. The only way to 'steal' those sort of cards is via something like Commandeer.

Yeah, I just found that out myself and deleted original post. It was exiting there for a minute though.

[FoolofaTook]

Misdirection is getting used a lot in this meta to change the targets of counters and removal. One important side effect of this is that Blue Elemental Blast is now better than Hydroblast. The Hydroblast can get misdirected to just about anything, including the Misdirection targeting it. The BEB stays on target unless the opponent has another red permanent or chooses to cast another red spell that BEB can legitimately target.

[YamiJoey]

Misdirection is getting used a lot in this meta to change the targets of counters and removal. One important side effect of this is that Blue Elemental Blast is now better than Hydroblast. The Hydroblast can get misdirected to just about anything, including the Misdirection targeting it. The BEB stays on target unless the opponent has another red permanent or chooses to cast another red spell that BEB can legitimately target.

However, you can cast Pyro/Hydro with no 'real' targets at the end of a turn, untap and Delve it away if you really need to.

[FoolofaTook]

However, you can cast Pyro/Hydro with no 'real' targets at the end of a turn, untap and Delve it away if you really need to.

This is true, however if I have either of those spells tuned in they are likely among the most valuable in the list at the moment. I'm unlikely to throw them away to delve for a spell in that situation.

I guess it's a meta call. I have a lot of UR Delver, BUG Control and Miracles in my meta at the moment and I'm seeing Misdirection every other match or so.

It's such a strange meta developing in front of us. A lot of blue control, blue aggro control, red aggro and Elves. It was really nice seeing Enchantress on Friday because it's too easy to get stretched out conforming to a local meta and then wind up blindsided by something at a big event.

[btm10]

This is true, however if I have either of those spells tuned in they are likely among the most valuable in the list at the moment. I'm unlikely to throw them away to delve for a spell in that situation.

I guess it's a meta call. I have a lot of UR Delver, BUG Control and Miracles in my meta at the moment and I'm seeing Misdirection every other match or so.

It's such a strange meta developing in front of us. A lot of blue control, blue aggro control, red aggro and Elves. It was really nice seeing Enchantress on Friday because it's too easy to get stretched out conforming to a local meta and then wind up blindsided by something at a big event.

Enchantress is not something I'd be surprised to see more of now, and it's not nearly as easy a matchup as it looks at first glance. So good to get practice in.

[wcm8]

Enchantress is not something I'd be surprised to see more of now, and it's not nearly as easy a matchup as it looks at first glance. So good to get practice in.

Enchantress was my first pet deck in Legacy. I used to play it religiously, but eventually got tired of how linear most of the games were. It also become next-to-unplayable once herp-derp combo cards like Emrakul got printed. Alas.

I'd actually be kind of happy to see this deck finally get a chance to shine. This is a deck that can run maindeck Rest in Peace (plus the Helm Combo), and has plenty of ways to shut down decks that want to win via the attack phase. Additionally, Blood Moon, Choke, and other SB problems... Luckily, BUG probably has the easiest time of all Delver decks with beating it. Abrupt Decay + Golgari Charm, counterspells, other removal, etc.

The problem with Enchantress is that it's a combo deck that can easily be dismantled. If you counter/destroy the first Enchantment effect and they don't have a backup, it's basically reduced to a pile that's playing a bunch of do-nothing spells like Wild Growth. Not only that, but pretty much *every* deck at least has access to sideboard cards that can cripple it. I think this deck probably needs to dip into some splash colors to deal with the current metagame, but the problem with doing that is it would dilute the number of Enchantment effects. You'd think WotC would have thrown Enchantress a few more bones in a supposed-Enchantment-themed block (Theros). I think what they really need to do is print a pseudo-functional reprint of Argothian Enchantress, except have it be an Enchantment Creature (and maybe to justify the increased power, make it cost WG instead of 1G). Or perhaps even better, a pseudo-functional reprint *without* shroud that only costs G.

/off-topic aside

As for BUG Delver, I still feel like Hymn to Tourach is a powerful card to be running. While I do think that TC has fundamentally changed how a lot of Delver vs. Delver matchups play out, you still have to consider all the other decks that are still being run in the format. Hymn is still a beating against (most forms of) combo, midrange, aggro, and even control. Thoughtseize is a mixed bag, sometimes better, often times way worse (e.g. against Burn). I will grant that Hymn paradoxically fuels TC and TC itself makes it a lot easier to recover, but in those situations you can just sideboard the card out.

I've been playing around with running 1-2 Dredge cards in the main deck. Darkblast and Life from the Loam are both pretty fantastic on their own against the right matchup, and of course their Dredge ability helps to fuel multiple TC's. To make room for LftL, I've been testing cutting the 4th Wasteland and just running 19 lands -- this way you still have the same number of colored sources, and in the event of facing a deck soft to Wasteland you have the potential of locking them out.

[btm10]

Enchantress was my first pet deck in Legacy. I used to play it religiously, but eventually got tired of how linear most of the games were. It also become next-to-unplayable once herp-derp combo cards like Emrakul got printed. Alas.

I'd actually be kind of happy to see this deck finally get a chance to shine. This is a deck that can run maindeck Rest in Peace (plus the Helm Combo), and has plenty of ways to shut down decks that want to win via the attack phase. Additionally, Blood Moon, Choke, and other SB problems... Luckily, BUG probably has the easiest time of all Delver decks with beating it. Abrupt Decay + Golgari Charm, counterspells, other removal, etc.

The problem with Enchantress is that it's a combo deck that can easily be dismantled. If you counter/destroy the first Enchantment effect and they don't have a backup, it's basically reduced to a pile that's playing a bunch of do-nothing spells like Wild Growth. Not only that, but pretty much *every* deck at least has access to sideboard cards that can cripple it. I think this deck probably needs to dip into some splash colors to deal with the current metagame, but the problem with doing that is it would dilute the number of Enchantment effects. You'd think WotC would have thrown Enchantress a few more bones in a supposed-Enchantment-themed block (Theros). I think what they really need to do is print a pseudo-functional reprint of Argothian Enchantress, except have it be an Enchantment Creature (and maybe to justify the increased power, make it cost WG instead of 1G). Or perhaps even better, a pseudo-functional reprint *without* shroud that only costs G.

/off-topic aside

As for BUG Delver, I still feel like Hymn to Tourach is a powerful card to be running. While I do think that TC has fundamentally changed how a lot of Delver vs. Delver matchups play out, you still have to consider all the other decks that are still being run in the format. Hymn is still a beating against (most forms of) combo, midrange, aggro, and even control. Thoughtseize is a mixed bag, sometimes better, often times way worse (e.g. against Burn). I will grant that Hymn paradoxically fuels TC and TC itself makes it a lot easier to recover, but in those situations you can just sideboard the card out.

I've been playing around with running 1-2 Dredge cards in the main deck. Darkblast and Life from the Loam are both pretty fantastic on their own against the right matchup, and of course their Dredge ability helps to fuel multiple TC's. To make room for LftL, I've been testing cutting the 4th Wasteland and just running 19 lands -- this way you still have the same number of colored sources, and in the event of facing a deck soft to Wasteland you have the potential of locking them out.

Briefly off topic - Enchantress is a pet deck of mine as well and I've been lending it out at locals to folks who don't have Legacy decks. It's a deck that can maindeck a Blood Moon (I'm actually running 1 main, 1 board) at essentially no cost to itself. BUG definitely has the easiest time of all the Delver decks against it, but the matchup is far from a walk for BUG Delver. Favorable? Sure. Auto win? Far from it.


On topic - I'm doing a lot of testing of somewhat strange BUG shells right now as well, and while I haven't tried Darkblast, I've actually been tinkering with a Landstill like shell that runs Loam. Do you mind posting a list? This thread may not be the best to discuss it though, since mine doesn't run Delver. As for Hymn vs. Thoughtseize, I think that the biggest reasons for Thoughtseize are that it requires less mana overall (and so allows you to play more spells in a turn) and less black mana (so gives you more fetch flexibility). The other half of costing less is that it allows us to hold up harder counters, whose stock is rising both because of us wanting to counter opposing Cruises and because there's a lot of value in being able to stop topdecked haymakers like Jace, Rest in Peace, or Blood Moon. I normally wouldn't consider RiP a haymaker, but against DRS, Goyf, Cruise.dec it gets pretty ugly even if you have Decay for it as soon as it lands. While reactive spells are a little weaker with Cruise than proactive ones, my testing suggests that this is a tradeoff worth making right now.

[KobeBryan]

I've been having quite a bit of success with this deck on cockatrice

18 lands
3 underground seas
3 tropical island
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
4 wastelands

creatures 12
4 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite shaman
4 delver

sorcery/instant 30
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 ponder
3 treasure cruise
3 force of will
4 stifle
2 spell pierce
1 dimir charm
1 disfigure
4 abrupt decay

sideboard
1 force of will
2 disfigure
2 golgari charm
1 spell pierce
1 notion thief
1 vendilion clique
1 envelop
1 zur's weirding
1 pithing needle
1 null rod
1 nihil spellbomb
1 sylvan library
1 blue elemental blast

[Satisfied_Yeti]

How has Stifle been working out for you?

I've been on Thoughtseize recently, taking opposing Treasure Cruises has been pretty good at ensuring I resolve the first one.

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil

SB
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

True-Name is there to have more non-graveyard dependant threats. I've been really liking them as creatures 13-14. Not running Hymn lessens the strain on the manabase, I'd be running 3 Trop/4 Usea or go down to 18 lands if I cut the Liliana for something else.

The sideboard is a bit looser than I would like, but having access to 6 additional removal spells has really helped creature matchups. I'd like to find room for some cards to improve my Miracles and Sneak and Show matchup, probably cutting a Disfigure and a piece of GY hate.

[FoolofaTook]

Darkblast is a no-brainer in the 75 at this point and there's a really good argument for it in the main list. It's hard to squeeze into my 60 at the moment but I'm looking for ways.

[YamiJoey]

Any reasons for that? It's pretty back against the mirror, the partial mirror - both BUG X and X Delver - UW Control, Lands, Storm, and Show and Tell. It's good against Elves and DnT. Anything I'm missing?

[Pdingo]

Hei Guys

Yesterday in a 21 Player Tournament: 4:1 Close..

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Brainstorm

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Golgari Charm


Match ups:

1:2 Burn. Was very very Close.
2:0 Jund
2:1 12 Post
2:1 Infect Mono G^^
2:1 MuD Post

Treasure cruise is so insane in this Deck.;)

greets Dingo

[Manipulato]

Hei Guys

Yesterday in a 21 Player Tournament: 4:1 Close..

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Brainstorm

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Golgari Charm


Match ups:

1:2 Burn. Was very very Close.
2:0 Jund
2:1 12 Post
2:1 Infect Mono G^^
2:1 MuD Post

Treasure cruise is so insane in this Deck.;)

greets Dingo

I played a very very similar list on Saturday (Only changes +1 Lili -1 Fetch) and had the most badest turney with this deck by far :frown: (Nic Fit sucks :mad:)

My MU`s were
UR Delver (1:2) Game 1 I won easily and G2+3 my manabase fucked me and BS did not found a 2nd land, Shaman got bolted...

Punishing Nic Fit (0:2) (He crushed me hard, resolving Cruise helped not that much, Stalker would have won me 1 game...)

BW Deadguy (1:2) (RIP and a unanswered Bob lost me the game, 2 Cruise were stranded in my hand, charm handled RIP but immediatly after that he hymned away my 2 Cruises)

Dark Maverick (1:2) (I disfigured + wasted + Hymned away 4 manasources in total on T3 but he drew like a god, in the other game a Knight equipped with SoFI + Batterskull was to much for me after not finding a lili or decay)

All in all those games were very very close & sometimes my manabase fucked me hard (especially against UR Delver & Maverick) or my opponents had just a better draw than me, so I´m considering putting back the 20th land. Sometimes i missed Stalker as a late game big fattie trump card which closes the game (Maybe it was just because my MU´s were very removal intensive), even if Cruise was good.
Now I play 2 Cruise + 1 Stalker instead of 3 cruise.

I played 2 Charm & 2 Deluge in the SB and Deluge was not very impressive at all, most of the time in the past I could not cast it because of a Thalia on the board or I did not want to cast it because I controled the board with my goodies anyway or I had to play it and blow up 1-2 guys of my own, so I will reduce the numer to 1 and up the Disfigure count to 3.
I think Charm is more important in the future against white decks because now with Cruise everywhere everybody will hate us with RIP (happened twice against me this Saturday!), destroying this asshole enchantment will be important.

[FoolofaTook]

Any reasons for that? It's pretty back against the mirror, the partial mirror - both BUG X and X Delver - UW Control, Lands, Storm, and Show and Tell. It's good against Elves and DnT. Anything I'm missing?

Yeah, here are the lists it's really good against right now:

UR Delver - Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer, elemental tokens, Grim Lavamancer.
BUG Delver - Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman (use during upkeep, dredge it out and use again because DRS is the killer creature in this meta, same utility against a flipped delver), Goyf wars, Dark Confidant in some builds.
Elves - Every elf in Elfball except for Nettling Sentinel and if you stabilize can keep Nettling Sentinel off the board also, Wirewood Simbiote, etc.
Maverick - Mom, Thalia, DRS (must keep DRS down at all costs) assorted other critters depending on which variant they're playing.
UG Infect - Everything has 1 toughness in this list and it's a tool against them although you need more to beat them consistently.
Jund - DRS, Dark Confidant, Goyf wars.
D&T - Half the creatures in their list including all of the locking ones.
Rock - DRS, Dark Confidant, Goyf wars, various hatebears depending on the variant they are playing.
BUG Control - DRS, Goyf wars, Baleful Strix, etc.

Various other creatures it can manage that can be hard to deal with otherwise: Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique (can Brainstorm to get it out of your GY and kill Clique when it lands, saving other important cards in the process and making your opponent very sad), Snapcaster Mage, Ichorid, etc.

It's a really useful removal spell in this meta given the creatures in play. It's very close to main list status in a list that wants to delve.

On the topic of discard vs extra counters: the top of your opponent's library is what kills you in this meta. There's too much card draw out there and the best of it relies on having cards in the GY. The discard elements are like a prep for the point where you're both low on cards and the initial exchanges are over and the first person to successfully resolve their plan will win. Stopping the opponent from doing that is really critical in this meta. Being able to do it yourself is really critical also. Discard helps on one side of that equation, counters help on both.

[Pdingo]

@manipulato

happens men. I don't like 19 lands in a deck that need land's and bb for a hymn or to cast a tarmo or a lili
I never had problems with the manabase. Well i'm now 37:3 since i play this list^^
i think 3 is the right number for cruise in a bug list. We always want one and draw a second.

If you have alot midrange decks like jund or mavericks or same for Ur Delver, you shoud play disfigure ;))
3-4 pieces.
golgari charm is always nice. toxic deluge is ok but i dont like it in a deck like this. It's 3 mana and your own creatures dies too.
Krosan Grip is nice to for a 5th decay against RIP and Batterskull.

[YamiJoey]

Darkblastwooooo.

For the purposes of all of these; it's only good against a pre-flipped Delver, unless you want to skip your Draw Step to get your Spell Countered.

UR Delver: I assume most lists are going to become Delver/Guide/Swiftspear, at least for the time being. That's everything on 2-toughness, and then see above. You can NEVER cast it on a Swiftspear.
BUG Delver: As above with both Delver and Shaman, but the presence of Shaman means you can't even do the trick, except on the turn it comes down. Then it's a "BB: Force of Will" exclusively for Shaman. Your comments about Goyf wars, whilst relevant, are probably not ideal. I'd rather be doing - erm - anything else. I'll just Golgari Charm for Regen and exile something with a Shaman if it gets REALLY shaky.
BUG Midrange: As previous. Darkblasting cards that have "draw a card" attached to them is a surefire way to lose a game, deathtouch or not. Wait for an opportune Golgari Charm.
Jund: Again; boarding in Dredge cards against a Deathrite deck, in a game entirely about card advantage seems... Loose.

So; good against Elves, Infect, and DnT. The Maverick deck is arguable, as it's good against Thalia and MoR, but bad against Deathrite Shaman, and everything else in the deck you care about. We're not fast enough to be able to double Darkblast a Stoneforge, because they will just find another or cast their Batterskull through any Dazes. We will have to Force it, as we have no main-deck answers to a Batterskull. Now you've just 4-1'd.

It's just not that great. I can see it in the board for DnT and Elves, then splash damage against other decks, but maining it seems just awful. We should just play Disfigure.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm going to replace the singleton Toxic Deluge main with the Darkblast and see how it does. It shores up my weakest matches at the moment, which I see as UR Delver and Elves, and the sweeper almost never came online fast enough game one without additional help from the sideboard.

I'm not going to main list Disfigure. One and done is not the kind of card advantage that works in this meta with such a narrow card.

[Manipulato]

@manipulato

happens men. I don't like 19 lands in a deck that need land's and bb for a hymn or to cast a tarmo or a lili
I never had problems with the manabase. Well i'm now 37:3 since i play this list^^
i think 3 is the right number for cruise in a bug list. We always want one and draw a second.

If you have alot midrange decks like jund or mavericks or same for Ur Delver, you shoud play disfigure ;))
3-4 pieces.
golgari charm is always nice. toxic deluge is ok but i dont like it in a deck like this. It's 3 mana and your own creatures dies too.
Krosan Grip is nice to for a 5th decay against RIP and Batterskull.

Yeah it was the 1st time playing the deck with 19 lands :smile:

My first 3 turney with the classic oldschool list went always 4:1 or better but I´m always working on new versions...I played 3 cruise and it was absolutley ok, exept for the scenario when RIP resolved...I think I will up the Charm count to 3 and the Disfigure count also, I need fast removal especially against D&T, Elves, etc...Deluge was always very slow & clumpy...Darkblast is also a interesting card...

I think I should not be that scared after that result, it can happen...

[wcm8]

This is the configuration I've settled on:

20 lands (4 sea, 2 trop, 1 bayou, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4/4/4 delver / DRS / goyf
4/4/4 ponder / bstorm/ TC
4/4 FoW / Daze
4/2/2 Decay / Liliana / Dimir Charm

Dimir Charm is fantastic right now against most Tier 1 decks. Hits most of the spells you want to hit, kills lots of creatures you want to kill, and at worst provides some filter or can be pitched to FoW. It's hardly ever dead and rarely gets sided out. Until Treasure Cruise gets banned, I'm not so sure Discard is what we want to be running.

Why TA instead of URx? BUG is still fantastic thanks to the absurdity of DRS, Abrupt Decay, and brute strength of Goyf. Liliana is also a versatile card that can help carry you into the midgame and take over. I haven't had issues resolving multiple TC's or having them interfere with DRS/Goyf. Only Rest in Peace is a problem, and even that is hardly game-over.

As for my current sideboard:

3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night*
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction**
1 Jace, TMS
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle***
1 Maelstrom Pulse

*DnT is enough of a problem that I play 1 copy of this to deal with that deck. If you don't see it much, Darkblast or some other removal spell can replace Dread of Night. Toxic Deluge doesn't work so well in TA vs how it functions in BUG Cascade.

** Reanimator, Punishing Fire, etc.. And also useful against some combo decks. But not a necessity and this slot could easily go towards something else.

*** Not entirely sold on P. Needle. But it's been pretty helpful against Miracles and other decks. This could probably be something else.

[FoolofaTook]

This is the configuration I've settled on:

20 lands (4 sea, 2 trop, 1 bayou, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4/4/4 delver / DRS / goyf
4/4/4 ponder / bstorm/ TC
4/4 FoW / Daze
4/2/2 Decay / Liliana / Dimir Charm

Dimir Charm is fantastic right now against most Tier 1 decks. Hits most of the spells you want to hit, kills lots of creatures you want to kill, and at worst provides some filter or can be pitched to FoW. It's hardly ever dead and rarely gets sided out. Until Treasure Cruise gets banned, I'm not so sure Discard is what we want to be running.

Why TA instead of URx? BUG is still fantastic thanks to the absurdity of DRS, Abrupt Decay, and brute strength of Goyf. Liliana is also a versatile card that can help carry you into the midgame and take over. I haven't had issues resolving multiple TC's or having them interfere with DRS/Goyf. Only Rest in Peace is a problem, and even that is hardly game-over.



This is kind of where I've been since I realized UR Delver was going to go tier 1 with Treasure Cruise and Monastery Swiftspear.

I'm running 19 colored mana sources and no wastes. I'm running 10 counters and no discard. I'm playing WaterBUG against the meta at the moment and it seems to be working.

Agree completely with the Dimir Charm assessment. It's a great card in this meta. I'm torn between running 1 and 2 main list because of the 2cc cost. I really want a 1cc removal spell to handle the first Elf and a Delver of Secrets the turn it lands. Darkblast is the other card I'm considering and I don't know which is better. I already have 28 blue spells for Force of Will so that's not a consideration.

Edit: Darkblast is a winner against D&T also. It hits Mom the turn she lands, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Phyrexian Revoker, Aven Mindcensor and Spirit of the Labyrinth if they're running that as a hate bear. It dredges back out into your hand as a control device against them and makes your Treasure Cruises easy to cast. I wish I had a way to get it into the main list and SB once each but I just don't have room right now. It's fighting with Toxic Deluge, Pernicious Deed and Ensnaring Bridge for spots in the SB and it doesn't sweep or control the way they do.

[wcm8]

This is kind of where I've been since I realized UR Delver was going to go tier 1 with Treasure Cruise and Monastery Swiftspear.

I'm running 19 colored mana sources and no wastes. I'm running 10 counters and no discard. I'm playing WaterBUG against the meta at the moment and it seems to be working.

Agree completely with the Dimir Charm assessment. It's a great card in this meta. I'm torn between running 1 and 2 main list because of the 2cc cost. I really want a 1cc removal spell to handle the first Elf and a Delver of Secrets the turn it lands. Darkblast is the other card I'm considering and I don't know which is better. I already have 28 blue spells for Force of Will so that's not a consideration.

Elves is going to be a hard matchup, especially game 1. While you won't be able to hit the turn 1 creature, at least Dimir Charm remains relevant by hitting GSZ, Glimpse, and Natural Order. If this deck is common enough in your meta that you want a slot towards beating it, definitely go with Darkblast. Elves has a tough time beating that card, DRS aside.

Why cut Wasteland? The card is busted. Daze is way worse without it, and it's key towards beating some matchups (e.g. Turbo-Eldrazi). With the 20 land configuration, there's usually no problem casting cards on time. If you want to make room for another slot, you could arguably cut the 4th Wasteland. I feel that with how low the curve is and also by running 4 DRS, BUG doesn't tend to have too many mana problems aside from instances where non-basics are attacked (e.g. Blood Moon). UR can get away with cutting Wasteland because it's so aggressive that games can frequently end by turn 5, but BUG is more midrange-y. If you cut Wasteland in BUG, I would then start to consider cutting Daze, Delver, and move towards the control spectrum.

What is "Water BUG" exactly? Some sort of BUG Control variant?

As for Dimir Charm, I agree that costing 2 can be awkward, but its versatility makes up for it. Prior to TC, it's something I wouldn't have rated that highly, but now that it has so many decent targets I can't see dropping it. I used to run Envelop in the sideboard after all. This is a card that for me is kind of taking the spot of Hymn to Tourach -- which means I want something disruptive and versatile. Perfect.

If only it hit creatures with *toughness* of 2 or less... Or better yet, CMC of 2 or less. (Well, then there'd be no question about running 3-4).

[FoolofaTook]

This is the list I'm running right now:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Repeal
1 Dimir Charm
1 Toxic Deluge/Darkblast
1 Psionic Blast

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Soldevi Excavations

SB

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Envelop
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Echoing Truth/Rushing River
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge/Darkblast
1 Ensnaring Bridge

It includes only the black and green spells that are absolutely necessary in this meta. Those being Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip and assorted removal spells to handle things like hexproof and creature overrun.

It looked good when I was putting it together and it has had only a few cards go in and out as I've been testing. 2 Psionic Blasts became 1 when I realized it was unwieldy early in the game and I could usually find the singleton if I needed it. Ensnaring Bridge left the main list as a concession to Elves which are not suppressed by it except after Craterhoof lands and they go get Reclamation Sage instead if that's the hang up. Creeping Tarpit left because comes into play tapped *really* sucks in a list playing Treasure Cruise and counters. Soldevi Excavations went in as a test to speed up Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time by a turn and then I discovered that it makes Miracles cry and also finds the thing I need much quicker in the late game. Jace's Fateseal is much less effective when you're scrying after it each turn.

It can play aggro, aggro-control or control equally well and it moves to the mode that bothers the opponent the most. It has no spells in it that force action at any point during the game. I'm either winning early on off of the wonderful creatures they've given us or I'm sitting and waiting for the inflection point.

Nobody understands what to do against Repeal and for the moment I'm going to stay quiet on that. I'm not sure there actually is a best thing to do against Repeal but there are better plays that help you break even and worse ones that win me the game.

Edit: forgot to answer the Wasteland question. I cut Wasteland because slowing the opponent's development is not that important when the plan is to counter or destroy what they develop into in the early game. It's also hard to play Wasteland in a list that wants to play draw-go half the time. When the opponent is wasting my lands I basically just flow in front of him and keep the necessary mana available from turn to turn. It would be hard to do that if I had 4 colorless sources in the list.

On Delver, you should never cut Delver in a list that has 25+ sorcery/instants. It's a completely broken card that will often do 7 to 10 damage for the investment of :u: once in the game.

[btm10]

This is the configuration I've settled on:

20 lands (4 sea, 2 trop, 1 bayou, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4/4/4 delver / DRS / goyf
4/4/4 ponder / bstorm/ TC
4/4 FoW / Daze
4/2/2 Decay / Liliana / Dimir Charm

Dimir Charm is fantastic right now against most Tier 1 decks. Hits most of the spells you want to hit, kills lots of creatures you want to kill, and at worst provides some filter or can be pitched to FoW. It's hardly ever dead and rarely gets sided out. Until Treasure Cruise gets banned, I'm not so sure Discard is what we want to be running.

As for my current sideboard:

3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night*
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction**
1 Jace, TMS
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle***
1 Maelstrom Pulse

*DnT is enough of a problem that I play 1 copy of this to deal with that deck. If you don't see it much, Darkblast or some other removal spell can replace Dread of Night. Toxic Deluge doesn't work so well in TA vs how it functions in BUG Cascade.

** Reanimator, Punishing Fire, etc.. And also useful against some combo decks. But not a necessity and this slot could easily go towards something else.

*** Not entirely sold on P. Needle. But it's been pretty helpful against Miracles and other decks. This could probably be something else.

I'm on your maindeck, -1 Cruise, -1 Ponder, -1 Daze, -1 Dimir Charm, +4 Thoughtseize. I've been liking TS a lot as a prelude to Ponder (so I know what I'm looking for) and as an additional turn 1 play, particularly against combo. I agree on a lot of your assessments of where we're at in the meta and may test the second Dimir Charm. There's an occasional RiP/Helm Miracles player in my local, and though most of the Miracles players are on more standard lists, I expect that some will at least be testing MD RiP/Helm/Energy Field and that we'll see more of it at GPNJ than we would've expected six months ago. I've been running a Krosan Grip in the board to answer Top and Batterskull for the past 6-8 months and it's been great. It's also nice that it's monocolored so you can cast it off of a single DRS activation under Blood Moon, and being almost uncounterable is a big plus against Miracles. I'm a big, big proponent of it in the board. I've also been happier than you seem to be with Pithing Needle. Creeping Tar Pit has been a sleeper all-star against Miracles, Blade decks, Death and Taxes, and anything else where I expect a grindfest or where Wasteland is marginal. I even brought it in against Merfolk once to give myself fewer Islands.

To change topics briefly - I think that a lot of people are freaking out too much about the Miracles matchup. It was about 50/50 prior to Cruise and Cruise improves it if anything. In addition, our sideboard options (Needle/Null Rod, Krosan Grip, Zur's Weirding, Maelstrom Pulse, Creeping Tar Pit, etc.) are so much better than their non-Blood Moon sideboard options that I've consistently felt like the favorite in postboard games, and while I've played against weak Miracles pilots, I've also played against people who were in the 3-0 and 4-0 brackets. I'm not sure that we're the best deck in the format, but there isn't a matchup that we're just dead to either, and I can't think of another deck that can say that.

The one thing I frequently want out of the board is an additional cheap piece of flexible removal; right now 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Negate are serving that role, but I may be better off with either a second Maelstrom Pulse or Grip or the first Naturalize over one of the Charms, and I'm still not totally sure I want Negate over Pierce. It weakens the combo matchups a bit, but only by a bit.

[YamiJoey]

I think Water BUG is supposed to be a Blue-skewed version?

I disagree with basically everything foolofatook has done, except maybe Dig. In the version I'm looking at, I might try Dig over Cruise. Draw three is good, but this might just be better, even for UU.

Maybe I'm just playing the wrong deck. I might build some 4 Delver, 4 Top, 3 Balance, 3 Jace monstrosity and go 0-5 to get it out of my system.

Also; we're great against UW Control. I'm going to be tweaking my stock list again, but I think I'm going to play 4 Decay, and the Dimir Charm wil help. We were better than 50/50, and Cruise/Dig are way powerful.

[Sturtzilla]

20 lands (4 sea, 2 trop, 1 bayou, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4/4/4 delver / DRS / goyf
4/4/4 ponder / bstorm/ TC
4/4 FoW / Daze
4/2/2 Decay / Liliana / Dimir Charm

As for my current sideboard:

3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night*
2 Spell Pierce
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction**
1 Jace, TMS
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle***
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Greetings All,

This week at the LGS I played the list wcm8 posted above. I did tweak the sideboard a little bit for the meta that I expected. I ended up going 2-1. I played Paul with Lands, winning 2-1, Feline with High Tide, losing 0-2, and Dragonslayer_90 with Miracles. We would have drawn but he was gracious enough to scoop to my Liliana and Zur's Weirding in game 3. After three weeks of testing with Treasure Cruise, I am not convinced that it is an auto-four-of in our deck. I think the effect is very powerful and allows our Delver deck a better late game in the vein of Shardless BUG; however, I have had a number of times either opening hands with 1-2 Cruises or drawing Cruises off of a Cruise. While this can be played through a lot of the time, I think that there is some card out there that the first copy would be better than a fourth Cruise. Sylvan Library or Vendilion Clique are two I am considering. I was very happy with the Dimir Charms every time that I drew them. I think that this list is very nearly dialed in... I think I want a substitution in the place of TC #4. I would be really interested in hearing what others think about this. Thanks for reading!

[btm10]

I think that Sylvan Library is the 1-of you want. It's too good in too many matchups and 12 threats is probably right.

[FoolofaTook]

I think Water BUG is supposed to be a Blue-skewed version?

I disagree with basically everything foolofatook has done, except maybe Dig. In the version I'm looking at, I might try Dig over Cruise. Draw three is good, but this might just be better, even for UU.

Maybe I'm just playing the wrong deck. I might build some 4 Delver, 4 Top, 3 Balance, 3 Jace monstrosity and go 0-5 to get it out of my system.

Also; we're great against UW Control. I'm going to be tweaking my stock list again, but I think I'm going to play 4 Decay, and the Dimir Charm wil help. We were better than 50/50, and Cruise/Dig are way powerful.

The point of the build is not to go heavy control with Delvers. The point of it is to use the necessary BUG assets to their best effect in a meta in which people topdecking Treasure Cruise is going to produce silly wins just off the strength of a draw 3 on a low asset situation.

The reason the list works is that it has 12 must answer threats and a ton of dig to get them and a lot of counters and removal to protect them, clear a path for them and prevent the opponent from winning while they're on the board. If the opponent is slow-roll control, well the list can do that also, and usually better than the opponent. The kind of lists that would give this list trouble are either rarely played (MUD and the original TA with Sinkholes, Stifles and Wastes) or on the decline and unlikely to be heavily played (Canadian Threshold and Jund). Even those lists are manageable on the play and after sideboarding.

Counterbalance is weaker in this meta. It doesn't stop Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time and those spells will both make Abrupt Decay happen more often than it used too. It's a dead control device walking. Miracles is a good enough overall list that this might not be clear right away but the days of Counterbalance being a good control device are over. Miracles will be looking for card advantage in other places soon.

Liliana of the Veil is weaker in this meta. She doesn't stop Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time and the card advantage she used to create will be nullified too often by both of the above. She's going to create exactly the kind of topdeck situations in which the next TC and DTT are clear winners and her +1 will fuel both of them. The opponent draws first after she hits the table. She's going to remove a creature and have a hasty creature then remove her too often. She doesn't flip Delver. She doesn't win the game.

Ask yourself what each of the spells in your list actually does and if that thing is necessary to win the game or not. In a meta in which card advantage is hard to come by the value of proactive 2-for-1's is much higher. The value of 1-for-1 trades with you taking their best card in exchange for one of your good ones is much higher.

In a meta like the one we face now where card advantage is easy to acquire the value becomes concentrated in acquiring cards and preventing the opponent from doing the same. You can't look for early card advantage and expect that to translate to a consistent winning position in the mid-game. You have to be able to create card advantage at all points in the game and prevent the opponent from doing the same.

The discard options are all weak in this meta. They disrupt early but they're going to run into a stone wall in the mid-game and even when you draw one and resolve it it's not a draw 3. It will never stop that topdecked draw 3 from beating you. Dead discard draws used to be aggravating because they did nothing to effect the board state and nothing to stop the next thing the opponent drew. That made them a mixed blessing at best, usually held in hand to try to create an inflection point with later draws. You'd cast them if you suspected the opponent was holding Emrakul or Show and Tell or something like that and waiting for the other combo piece or if you wanted to get removal out of an opponent's hand before you put an asset on the table.

What Brainstorm in response to a Thoughtseize means at this point is "ok, here's the 1-for-1 trade you wanted so badly, hope you held a counter or two because I just put Treasure Cruise on top of my pile". Good luck with that.

[Star|Scream]

Foolofatook: Why do you run 4 Flooded Strand instead of 4 Misty Rainforest? The strand can't fetch a bayou

[FoolofaTook]

Foolofatook: Why do you run 4 Flooded Strand instead of 4 Misty Rainforest? The strand can't fetch a bayou

I'm never going to fetch that Bayou in this list unless the opponent has Surgically Extracted either the the Underground Seas or the Tropical Islands. I won't fetch it in response to Blood Moon for obvious reasons, going for either a Trop or USea if I need the green or black for Abrupt Decay. The Bayou isn't there to cast double-black the way it is in most BUG Delver lists, it's purely protection against losing black or green.

I do play Flooded Strands and hold Polluted Deltas when I have a choice. That gives me the benefit of having the opponent unsure of what I'm playing early on and also allows me to fetch the Bayou if I need to. I've played 9 competitive matches with the list at this point to an 8-1 record with a 0-1 loss to Miracles, the 2nd match I played with the list as the only loss. I haven't fetched the Bayou yet. It sits in my hand pretending to be something else when I have it. I played it only in the mirror when a couple of USeas got wasted early and I had to have black to stop a rampaging Goyf on turn 4.

When an opponent sees Misty Rainforest fetch a USea he's going to put me on BUG on turn 1. When he sees Flooded Strand go get a USea I have another turn where he just isn't sure.

Edit: I've considered replacing the Bayou but the 4th Tropical Island isn't better than it due to the threat of losing access to either green or black. I also haven't had a 1-land hand with the Bayou that forced a mull yet.

[hobart]

Here's my current list:

4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Ponder
3x Stifle
3x Treasure Cruise
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Disfigure
2x Spell Pierce

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmagoyf
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Wasteland
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Scalding Tarn
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea

Sideboard: 15

1x Abrupt Decay
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
2x Grafdigger’s Cage
2x Golgari Charm
1x Disfigure
1x Sylvan Library
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Divert
1x Thoughtseize
1x Chill
1x Submerge
1x Toxic Deluge

My game plan is to play more of a RUG style of deploying threats while having resources open to interact during the opponents turn. Overall I want to utilize Treasure Cruise well while also being able to disrupt my opponents Treasure Cruise plan with DRS, stifle, and pierce. I was at 2 Cruise for while but so many Delver mirrors just came down to who drew the cruise first, so I upped it. 4 cannot be supported unless you run more air in your deck such as Gitaxian Probe or Thought Scour. The creature count tries to maintain a balance between threat density and spell count for Delver. All the threats are relevant and must be answered promptly. I do not durdle with cantrip into cantrip into cantrip just to maximize cruise. I cantrip to find the most effective cards, deploy them, sit back on some permission, and cruise to refill only. I want to cruise myself but I want to beat the other cruise decks! So this is my current philosophy, what do you guys think?

[FoolofaTook]

@hobart

I think that's the right direction to go in this meta. You're trying to squat on UR Delver and other Delver lists while maintaining decent games against tribal and control.

Edit: I would put the Vendilion Clique in the side and add the 4th Stifle. If you're going to sit on their mana then you need to make that happen early on. I'd find a way to get the 4th Abrupt Decay in also. Not sure exactly how I'd do that.

The Stifles and Dazes let you play around opposing Wastelands so I don't think you need a Bayou for safety.

[codegoblin]

I've been slaying in the Los Angeles area with this list. Won 3+ 8+mans and one 24 man. Yes, this list wants stifle in the opening hand real bad.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Ponder
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tarmogoyf
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Chill
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties

[iostream]

I've been slaying in the Los Angeles area with this list. Won 3+ 8+mans and one 24 man. Yes, this list wants stifle in the opening hand real bad.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Ponder
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tarmogoyf
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Chill
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
Why cut Tarmogoyf?

[YamiJoey]

Why cut Tarmogoyf?

Because TNN is a better Tarmogoyf if your deck is skewed towards making it almost as easy to cast.

[FoolofaTook]

Goyf is still really strong in the meta. It's so mana-efficient for what it does. TNN is also a wall without defender but it's a slower clock and it lands later. With a Jitte or SoFI it's really scary however the equipment doesn't have protection the way it does and losing to that combination would be losing to just about any decent beater well equipped.

I can see the argument for 3 Goyfs and a TNN or Vendilion Clique. I'm just not sure the configuration really advances the cause in the absence of equipment. It's kind of a sideways diversification, which increases the variance for you and presents problems for the opponent in terms of managing your threat base.

[btm10]

Because TNN is a better Tarmogoyf if your deck is skewed towards making it almost as easy to cast.

The stock list seldom has a problem getting 1UU on its main phase turn 3, especially if you haven't drawn Daze or had to cast it. Whether you want to spend you third main phase tapping out for a 3/1 is a different question, and I'm not sure it's optimal. As threats 13 and up, I think TNN and Clique are fine options, but Tarmogoyf is really too good at what he does to be cutting. I think it was someone in the the Shardless thread who pointed out that Goyf may be just a big dumb animal, but he's the best big dumb animal. Many times it doesn't matter that he dies to Decay or Swords because he just makes your opponent dead so quickly.


Goyf is still really strong in the meta. It's so mana-efficient for what it does. TNN is also a wall without defender but it's a slower clock and it lands later. With a Jitte or SoFI it's really scary however the equipment doesn't have protection the way it does and losing to that combination would be losing to just about any decent beater well equipped.

I can see the argument for 3 Goyfs and a TNN or Vendilion Clique. I'm just not sure the configuration really advances the cause in the absence of equipment. It's kind of a sideways diversification, which increases the variance for you and presents problems for the opponent in terms of managing your threat base.

I wouldn't trim a Goyf for TNN, for the reasons stated above. If we're concerned with having a difficult-to-remove blocker, the game has gone to a strange place. I agree with your assessment of TNN without equipment though. As an extra body he's very strong, but "extra" is the key here.

[suffah]

Is 18 lands cutting it too close now? With Liliana no longer in most main decks it seems like 18 is OK. Thoughts?

[wcm8]

TA always wants to see a minimum of 2 lands for Goyf, Decay, and Hymn (if you're running it). There are also other 2cmc spells that get frequently played. Even if you cut Liliana and TNN, and despite DRS, 18 lands is cutting it close.

I think 19 is about the lowest you can go, and I would suggest cutting the 4th Wasteland instead of a colored source. But of course you are encouraged to do your own testing.

[Requiem2]

Took down a local last night and split the finals.
R1 elves, lost g1. G2 and G3 darkblast was amazing and won me both games.
R2 sneak attack, lost g1 to a turn 3 show and tell getting through my fow. G2 delver beats and counter magic got me there. G3 double waste and double stifle get me there easy.
R3 burn t1 delver into tarmo get me there. G2 t1 drs and daze eidolon. T3 tarmo and t4 hymn seal it off.
R4 we split it was UR delver (bobs list). Close G3 I he was at 7life and I was at 5life he has one transforms delver, and I have 2 delvers and a goyf should have had it on the swing back 2 different times but delvers never flipped. Fun games it was very close.

Creatures 12
4 delver 4 drs 4 tarmo

Spells 29
4 fow 4 daze 4 brainstorm 3 ponder
4 stifle 3 TC 3 hymn
4 abrupt decay

Lands 19
3 usea 2 trop 2 bayou 4 waste
4 polluted delta 2 verdant 2 misty

SB
2 grafdiggers cage
2 golgari charm
2 flusterstorm
2 darkblast
1 disfigure
1 vendilion clique
1 true-name
1 sylvan library
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 maelstrom pulse

[Griselpuff]

I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.

[suffah]

Nice finish was rooting for you to top 8.

How did Darkblast perform?

[btm10]

Well, I think I've settled on a list. I played a Wiley-style list with 3 Cruise over the Bobs and a 19th land, Sylvan Library, and MD Clique over the Stifles at a GPT yesterday and while it was fine, I wasn't. I played this today at a different GPT and finished 2nd, with my only match loss coming in the finals:

Land (19)
8 Fetch
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

Draw/Manipulation (10)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

Disruption/Removal (18)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dimir Charm
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

I played Remy (MUD, 2-0), Paul (Infect, 2-0), Ian (BUG Delver, no Cruises, w/ Confidants, 2-1), and ID'ed with Adam (Miracles, but we played it out for fun. I won 2-0), and Dan (12post). In the top 4, I played Dan, winning 2-0 and Remy again in the finals, losing 2-1. I played the finals fairly loosely and could easily have won game 1 had I mulliganed a marginal seven into something more reasonable and I absolutely punted game 3 at a multiple points. Dimir Charm continues to impress me, and I'd like to find room for the fourth Ponder. The True-Name Nemesis is the obvious cut, but the thing I find myself digging for most frequently is creatures. The Thoughtseizes play well with Liliana, handle things that Decay can't kill preboard, and I like having the discard as additional disruption against combo, so I don't think I'd be down for cutting either of them.

[Griselpuff]

Darkblast is very powerful, but a bit narrow. I like running 1.

[Zotmaster]

I played Remy (MUD, 2-0), Paul (Infect, 2-0), Ian (BUG Delver, no Cruises, w/ Confidants, 2-1), and ID'ed with Adam (Miracles, but we played it out for fun. I won 2-0), and Dan (12post). In the top 4, I played Dan, winning 2-0 and Remy again in the finals, losing 2-1. I played the finals fairly loosely and could easily have won game 1 had I mulliganed a marginal seven into something more reasonable and I absolutely punted game 3 at a multiple points. Dimir Charm continues to impress me, and I'd like to find room for the fourth Ponder. The True-Name Nemesis is the obvious cut, but the thing I find myself digging for most frequently is creatures. The Thoughtseizes play well with Liliana, handle things that Decay can't kill preboard, and I like having the discard as additional disruption against combo, so I don't think I'd be down for cutting either of them.

I think Dimir Charm is in a good place for you as well; doubly so if you are like me and you recite out loud what it does and then proceed to cast a Treasure Cruise into it anyway. I guess technically I can say I was trying to clear the path in case I drew a Show and Tell, but regardless, it seems well-positioned if people are going to be running TC everywhere. I hope Zur's Weirding catches on too, because when that card is good, it's devastating.

[btm10]

Darkblast is very powerful, but a bit narrow. I like running 1.

You did have a lot of spot removal in the board, though. Did it feel like overload alongside 3 Disfigure? I totally dig the Tar Pit. I ran without it this weekend, but it should probably come back to the board because I'm boarding at least one four-drop in in some matches, and it may be the extra threat I was referring to above.


I think Dimir Charm is in a good place for you as well; doubly so if you are like me and you recite out loud what it does and then proceed to cast a Treasure Cruise into it anyway. I guess technically I can say I was trying to clear the path in case I drew a Show and Tell, but regardless, it seems well-positioned if people are going to be running TC everywhere. I hope Zur's Weirding catches on too, because when that card is good, it's devastating.

Thanks! TC is insane, so Charm being a counter for it is just a bonus. I too hope to create more confusion with Weirding.

[Pans-Advocate]

Can anyone find anything they don't like about Sam Roukas's list?

19 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
12 CREATURES
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
29 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

SIDEBOARD
1 Spell Pierce
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm

I'm thinking maybe cut a Thoughtseize for a maindeck Darkblast and leave the rest as is, I really like just about every card here. Should I be more worried about Blood Moon decks? I feel like that's the sacrifice to cutting the Thoughtseize. I also see some tension in the board plan against Death and Taxes, since you want both Jitte and Null Rod, but they both feel so impactful that they warrant slots. Lastly, I'm worried a out not respecting Burn enough but I don't know what constitutes a sufficient plan without watering down too many other matchups. What am I missing?

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I'm thinking maybe cut a Thoughtseize for a maindeck Darkblast and leave the rest as is, I really like just about every card here. Should I be more worried about Blood Moon decks? I feel like that's the sacrifice to cutting the Thoughtseize. I also see some tension in the board plan against Death and Taxes, since you want both Jitte and Null Rod, but they both feel so impactful that they warrant slots. Lastly, I'm worried a out not respecting Burn enough but I don't know what constitutes a sufficient plan without watering down too many other matchups. What am I missing?
The deck doesn't have enough G to reliably activate ooze enough to make it better than goyf, so -1 ooze for 4th goyf is for sure.

Otherwise, Deluge should also probably be something else. Biggest issues TA has outside of its truly difficult matchups like Elves are red spells and resolved JTMS. If you cut Thoughtseize and Deluge you should consider cards that help with either of those. Darkblast just isn't powerful enough for serious consideration.

[YamiJoey]

So I was jamming this in a few games yesterday. It was practically goldfishing against a BR... Something reanimator. It wasn't a Blue deck, anyway. Looks strange, plays stranger.

Creatures: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Dimir Charm
1 Sultai Charm
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
9 Fetchlands

No real sideboard, but that will come in time. Initial thoughts: I'm probably better off looking into a non-Delver deck. Later thoughts: Delver is broken, why would I not want to play it?

[Thorhammer]

Nice work Akatsuki for the 11th place finish. With zero discard did your combo match ups suffer any?

[Manipulato]

I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.

Gratz to your finish!
How was Stifle for you instead of Discard?

Greetings

[btm10]

The deck doesn't have enough G to reliably activate ooze enough to make it better than goyf, so -1 ooze for 4th goyf is for sure.

Otherwise, Deluge should also probably be something else. Biggest issues TA has outside of its truly difficult matchups like Elves are red spells and resolved JTMS. If you cut Thoughtseize and Deluge you should consider cards that help with either of those. Darkblast just isn't powerful enough for serious consideration.

I agree with all of this except that Darkblast isn't worth testing. If you're walking into a room full of X/1s and opposing Tarmogoyfs, it's pretty good. I don't know if it will make the cut in my list yet, but I do plan on testing it.

[phazonmutant]

I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.

Congrats on the placing! Did you like the Stifle build? Every time I've tested the deck, it seemed underpowered and clunky. But I've only done a few matches with it post-Khans, maybe that's changed.

Was Chill effective vs. UR and UWR? Seems like BEB would be more versatile and better - it hits important combo cards as well as serves as a Vindicate for red creatures. Chill seems like a speed bump at best, and ineffective against the dangerous U cards at worst.

[Dice_Box]

I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.

Top spot then top 16? Not too bad mate. Not to bad at all. Will agree with Manipulato and have to ask, how did the lack of discard treat you? You thinking its use us lessened by the new draw cards or Stifle something that you think is better placed overall?

[Griselpuff]

Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.

[Manipulato]

Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.

"Stifle is powerful when unexpected". I think that`s exactly the right thought about Stifle! If everybody would begin to play the Stifle version it would lose a bit of its power because people will play around it (like against RUG Delver).

I think for a big turney at this moment Stifle is a great card, but most of the time I play smaller local events and after the 1st turney everybody would know about the "Tech".

Thx for your answer.

Greetings

[nditiz1]

Ran in a LGS GPT this past weekend taking it down with this and some help:

4x Deathrite
4x Delver
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant

4x FOW
4x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
4x Hymn to Tourach
1x Liliana OTV

4x Wasteland
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
1x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest

SB

2x V. Clique
2x Graf. Cage
1x Needle
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Golgari Charm
3x Disfigure
1x Sylvan Library
1x K. Grip
2x Spell Pierce
1x Null Rod

18 players 5 rds cut top 8

Rd 1 - ANT
Game 1 - Keep with good hand versus unknown opponent, lose on turn 3.
Game 2 - Mull to find a better hand with force or pierce and daze or just Null Rod. Don't get one and lose a few on turn 3.
(0-1)

Rd 2 - Pox, non optimal build, but interesting
Game 1 - I have lots of land and am able to keep playing threats off the top. He entombs a Vengeful Pharaoh, kills my goyf. He casts it next turn and I race with Delver until another goyf and deathrite join.
Game 2 - I'm ahead the entire game and he dies shortly after
(1-1)

Rd 3 - Mono red Sneak the Breach
Game 1 - I force his turn 2 blood moon after he casts COV for 1 off Seething Song. I already have a deathrite in play and Bob is coming to the party. Bob gains me the needed cards to stop any other attempts and to take out COV.
Game 2 - I keep a mediocre hand with no force. He casts a turn 1 Blood Moon and I scoop.
Game 3 - I keep another non force hand, but has deathrite and Brainstorm. I hold the deathrite. He plays Mountain go. I am able to see FOW, FOW, land at eot so even if he did try for a turn 1 blood moon I could stop it. Bob comes down, I then FOW his Sneak Attack. I land Deathrite, but am out of counters. He gets an infernal titan through taking out my team. I rip a tarmogoyf. InfTitan domes my for three and goyf trades as he's a 6/7. We both play draw go. He tries to B.Moon, but I am holding K.Grip and kill it. Delver comes with Pierce and FOW. Delver goes the distance.
(2-1)

Rd 4 - 4 color deathblade
Game 1 - I am able to take control early as I won the die roll. I counter an early TNN and my threats keep coming even though they are getting swords. Bob is key once again this match.
Game 2 - The board state at the end was him at 9 and I have Deathrite, Bob, Delver, against TNN and Creeping Tar Pit. I'm at 14. He decides to swing with just the Tar Pit as he's dead to my alpha if he swings with both. I go to 11 and put him to 7. Bob reveals FOW and killed me.
Game 3 - I get control of the board again and clean up.
(3-1)

Rd 5 - ID

Top 8
Rd 1 - ANT
I get paired against the guy from Rd 1 playing ANT
Game 1 - He gets me early taking my only counter before going off.
Game 2 - I mull to six to get a hand with counter/null rod. I miss. He again takes my early counter and I manage to win by luck as AdN from 15 sometimes doesn't get you there
Game 3 - I have the perfect sculted hand to beat ANT and I do.

Rd 2 - My friend playing U/R delver
We already know the other pairing Miracles and RUG. We decide BUG has a better chance against either of those and I'm going to GP NJ. We play it out anyway and it comes down to game 3. He gets it, but still scoops

Final - Miracles
The Miracles player gets his opponent to scoop as he is also going to GP NJ.
Game 1 - Utter blowout as he is stuck on lands and I crush
Game 2 - I mull to 5 with the first 2 having no lands. He cleans up
Game 3 - Hymn to Tourach sees the game as it hit his 3rd mana source and I wasted his Tundra in play then slam down needle on top. He is stuck on a single blue for turns and that is that.

Prior to the tournament I was trying to decide on Treasure Cruise or not. My original build had two Tombstalkers and a second Lili, but I feel like I wanted more card draw and speed so I put in Bobs. TC provides card draw, but no instant threat. Delver already has a target on his head after he flips so I make my opponent choose which is more of a threat delver or bob. Could cruise have been great in some of my matches? Sure, it's a great card, but my plan against miracles never changes, be the fastest attack deck you can be.

[FoolofaTook]

I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.

I had a miserable night on Friday night going 1-2 with 0-2 to mana screw against Stoneblade and 1-2 inevitability against Merfolk. I did beat UR Delver for the third time though. I'm going to switch the list around a bit to deal with tribal. The losses to Elves were annoying but I figured every list has one really bad matchup. The loss to Merfolk kind of brought home how bad my list is against tribal.

I guess we're still in a rock-paper-scissors meta even with Treasure Cruise to help things out.

[FoolofaTook]

So I was jamming this in a few games yesterday. It was practically goldfishing against a BR... Something reanimator. It wasn't a Blue deck, anyway. Looks strange, plays stranger.

Creatures: 12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf

Spells: 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Dimir Charm
1 Sultai Charm
4 Force of Will
4 Dig Through Time

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
9 Fetchlands

No real sideboard, but that will come in time. Initial thoughts: I'm probably better off looking into a non-Delver deck. Later thoughts: Delver is broken, why would I not want to play it?

Yep on both counts. I'm not going to post lists at this point with the changes I'm making because Delver is out for now. But I'm having the same thoughts you are about Delver being too good not to play.

I am looking at Delver and DRS and wondering if they're not too much of a good thing between them as cheap assets that are not hard to manage for the opponent. Great power but vulnerable to lots and not standing off against many mid-game finishers at this point. They both work well with Golgari Charm though.

[Borealis]

Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.

Congrats on your finish. I was there but played Modern instead, as my Legacy legs are quite rusty these days, and poor Nimble Mongoose is now under a serious Ship-shaped Shadow. But I'm hoping to play Delver in some form at GP Jersey, and I'm always glad to see your name up in the top standings.

My only question is, if you did cut Stifle for a tournament tomorrow, and assuming the metagame was going to be similar (Miracles, Delver, Combo, and some creatures), what would you replace it with? Hymn or Thoughtseize? Neither?

Most likely, I will just jam Stifle in a month and call it a day. But I am curious what the best replacement would be in the current metagame. I'm not too high on Thoughtseize either, and I love Hymn but it seems worse in an Ancestral meta, and the only other options I can think of would be more countermagic, Snare and Pierce most likely. Anyway, just wanted your two cents. I'm pretty psyched to put your list together and start playing Brainstorm again, it's been awhile.

[phazonmutant]

Stifle is powerful when unexpected, and it's simply well-positioned in a metagame filled with Miracles and SFM. It's also passable vs. combo and Delver. Thoughtseize was underperforming in testing against Delver/Miracles. Still, playing some in the SB (as well as TNN) might be good. Chill is good vs. Burn and UR Delver, which are both tough match-ups. Making Burn spells and creatures costing 2 more is a huge deal, but the primary downside is it doesn't do anything when you are already behind. I never ended up drawing it vs. UR though. I would not bring it in vs. UWR.

I'm surprised it's still unexpected. Willey has top 8'd a few times with Stifle. That's a fair analysis of it though.

I definitely agree that Thoughtseize is underpowered for the maindeck. It's fine against combo, but not backbreaking against the field like Hymn. So it seems to me the options are either Hymn or Stifle. Hymn is very solid against Miracles and Stoneforge (although less so against Death and Taxes), and I think it's more powerful overall. The mana cost and needing 2 Bayous is a real cost though.

Well, we definitely agree on not bringing it in against UWR! Chill still just seems so narrow. I know people have suggested it before, but how about Jitte in the board? It's good against Burn, Elves, and fine against Delver.

[Thorhammer]

Hey folks. Took down a local tonight with the following pile:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
1 True-Name Nemesis

Spells:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Dimir Charm

Lands:
4 underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Isalnd
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Dimir Charm
2 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vendillion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge

Match 1: Burn Win 2-1
Game 1 is an abysmal affair with me going to four life and him still having a fistful of cards. I die to a bolt as I fetch in an attempt to counter a Price of Progress.
Game 2 is much better with Hymn to Tourach hitting double magma Jet. He concedes after I Dimir Charm an Eidolon showing me lands and an irrelevant Red Elemental blast with Deathrite and goyf in play.
Game 3 is good for me too as I Spell Pierce a bolt to keep deathrite on the field then Dimir charm a Chain lightning. When I have lethal on the board he magma jet's me to set up a good draw. I Dimir charm the top of his library during his upkeep to get the win. Achievement unlocked for casting all three modes of Dimir Charm this match!!!

Match 2: Elves (Vomit) Win 2-1
Game 1 equals death by Craterhoof on turn four. I force of willed an early death rite thinking he was the mirror and I wanted to have my own death rite do some work. oops.
Game 2 is pretty epic despite his mull to five. I Dimir Charm (this card is bonkers) a heritage druid and waste a cradle. He has Llanowar and sentinel sentinel. He goes for the order and I decay his sentinel. Thus his hoof can only hit for eight and the rest of the elves have to hang back since I have lethal. I disfigure his elf, attack him to one and play another goyf to close it out.
Game 3 is a lesson in "my sideboard is better". He keeps a loose one and I open on death rite into pithing needle naming quirion ranger (which he had played) and grafdigger's cage. Golgari charm then wipes the board of symbiotes, visionaries, and Dryad arbor leaving his only land a Cradle.

Match 3: Shardless BUG win 2-1
Game 1 was heartbreaking as I have goyf and delver to his no cards and no board. I attack him down to 7 or something. He dimir charms himself to find Pernicious deed. Major bugger. I play another goyf (huge at this point from deed and walkers) Then his visions goes off and he treasure cruises and draws a jillion cards and plays two death rites. I attack and he blocks and I decay the other death rite and then hymn him back down to hellbent. Booya! Or so I think. He top decks shard less agent into abrupt decay and just hits gas. Arrgh!
Game 2 I get there on the back of a sturdy true name nemesis that went the distance. I submerged his death rite to the top and waste landed him sending him back to the stone age. Goyfs join the party and he can't find deed.
Game 3 is interesting as he gets on the back foot quickly and I counter a visions to keep him from going too nuts. He treasure cruises and finds deed but only has death rite left for mana. I also have a death rite and an insect and a goyf. I decay his death rite and he attempts to add mana for deed, I tank for a while and realize the correct play is to save my death rite so I steal his mana and he is forced to just blow up delver ( i could have drained him instead which would have put him to one but then I would only have a goyf and I was wary of liliana, which he ended up having). I attack him to 2 and pass. He brainstorms and cracks a misty that was there lying around then cruises but can't find a non fetch land to play both lili and a blocker.

Overall it was a good night of magic. The deck is good but we all knew that. I am absolutely in love with the sideboard. It shows how versatile this color combination is in the fact that I almost transformed every matchup into something awesome. The fact that I lost every game one and came back every time is a testament to how good we can become after board. Unfortunately, I didn't get to bring in Zur's Weirding. (I'll get you next time miracles. Next time) Dimir Charm is ball-busted good and I brought it in every match and used multiple modes.

One thing I do think is worth discussing is the creature count. I simply cannot imagine dropping to 12 creatures. I know a lot of lists are doing that but without lightning bolt we must win with a creature on the field and I just feel like 12 is too few. I used to run 14 but I think 13 is good enough with cruise. Debate if you wish; I'd love to hear thoughts.

The only thing I am on the fence on are the two hymn's and the two Lili's in the main. I am not a fan of thoughtseize with so much UR Delver, burn etc. around so I think it needs to be either hymn or stifle. Probably a metagame choice as akatsuki said. I just can't bring myself to cut Lili; she's just my homegirl. Good against miracles, fair stuff, delver decks, pressures combo decks, fuel's cruise. (Plus my 6 month old daughter is named Liliana):smile:

[exallium]

Hey Guys,

Playing in a Charity event this weekend, and I'm lending out Miracles so I'm going back to good ol' Team America. Was wondering if I could get some help with my sideboard, i.e. is it ok.

Main:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Stalker

4 Decay
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
4 Brainstorm
2 Liliana

4 Delta
4 Catacomb
1 Misty
3 Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
4 Waste

Side:
2 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Library
1 Null Rod
1 Envelop
1 Creeping Tar-Pit

Thanks!

[Dice_Box]

I would switch the Envelop over for a Dimir Charm or another Rod, otherwise I think your good. I think I like your board better than my own.

[exallium]

I would switch the Envelop over for a Dimir Charm or another Rod, otherwise I think your good. I think I like your board better than my own.

I think Dimir charm will be the one. I highly value having a cheap hard counter for sorceries. And thanks!

[Star|Scream]

I think Dimir charm will be the one. I highly value having a cheap hard counter for sorceries. And thanks!

No treasure cruise?

[exallium]

No treasure cruise?

I'm a bit out of practice with the deck, and I'd rather play something I know and have done well with than try new tech for this tournament. I'm definitely interested in trying Treasure Cruise, but that will likely have to wait until after GP New Jersey. My problem right now is the contention between Cruise, Tombstalker, DRS, and Goyf.

[CorpT]

I'm a bit out of practice with the deck, and I'd rather play something I know and have done well with than try new tech for this tournament. I'm definitely interested in trying Treasure Cruise, but that will likely have to wait until after GP New Jersey. My problem right now is the contention between Cruise, Tombstalker, DRS, and Goyf.

Cruise is much, much better than Tombstalker and doesn't contend with Goyf and DRS nearly as much as you'd think.

[exallium]

Cruise is much, much better than Tombstalker and doesn't contend with Goyf and DRS nearly as much as you'd think.

I'll give it a shot as a two-of, replacing the stalkers, and try it out before the event this weekend.

[nditiz1]

Exallium - That was my exact build pre TC. I posted a report with that list a few pages back and may have inlcuded sideboard strats. As far as going forward I posted another tournament report a few days back replace the 2 Tombs and 1 Lili with 3 Dark Conf. Even running your current list it will be pretty good especially against a heavy U/R delver field as they have problems with 5 toughness creatures as long as they don't kill you before he drops. I take out the bobs against u/r delver and burn as it can be a killer.

[exallium]

Exallium - That was my exact build pre TC. I posted a report with that list a few pages back and may have inlcuded sideboard strats. As far as going forward I posted another tournament report a few days back replace the 2 Tombs and 1 Lili with 3 Dark Conf. Even running your current list it will be pretty good especially against a heavy U/R delver field as they have problems with 5 toughness creatures as long as they don't kill you before he drops. I take out the bobs against u/r delver and burn as it can be a killer.

I definitely love the main deck as is, It's just a matter of all this new fancy treasure cruise tech and how it changes how the deck is built. I'm running a bunch of 4 ofs and 2 2 ofs. Whether or not that's as important when you're running 4 BS, 4 ponder, and 2+ TC, I just don't know yet. The draw to my current build (as posted above) is how consistent it is. I have access to bobs so that's a consideration as well. My only problem with bob is that he dies to Golgari Charm, but maybe I shouldn't worry about that.

[sharke]

Hi all,
I am new to this topic but been reading it for about a year and i am playing this deck for about 2 years now.
I was wandering what do you thing about my list since legacy players in my town is about 20 and there are a lot of diffrent decks playing... From goblins, nice fit, miracle, combos...... etc
Sry for grammer
Thanks for your replay

19 lands

4 shamans
4 goyf
4 delver
2 stalker

4 fow
4 daze
4 ponder
3 stifles
2 thougtseize
4 brainstorm
2 tresure cruise
1sylvan library
4 decay

Sb
3 spell pierce
2golgari charma
2 disfigure
2 grafdigers cage
2 liliana
2 vendilion
1 maelstrom puls
1 krosan grip

[sharke]

Forgot to say that yes it is 61 card but it preforms realy good. I was wondering is 3 stifles ok or it must be 4 and what do you thing about 2 thoughtseize is it better than hymn or maybe dimir charm insted ?
Thx again

[wwoning]

I'm very surprised to see so many people packing TC, but hardly anyone playing DTT. I'm testing with 2 DTT main now and they have been AWESOME. Once I found a Daze and Wasteland against a Pox opponent with one Swamp and one Urborg in play, another time Force + blue card against a must counter spell.

Yes, it costs one U more, but the card selection you get is just fantastic. TC would not have saved me in that spot. Instant speed is of course a big fat bonus and works around the sorcery hate (envelop, dimir charm) that BUG decks pack.

[JohnBell]

Forgot to say that yes it is 61 card but it preforms realy good. I was wondering is 3 stifles ok or it must be 4 and what do you thing about 2 thoughtseize is it better than hymn or maybe dimir charm insted ?
Thx again

Now I play this:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Submerge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Disfigure
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce

The first problem for TA is Elves and decks with Blood Moon.
I tested Dimir Charm but cc2 is too high for this deck IMHO
Side-Matchups:

Jund:
-4 Force of Will
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Disfigure
+2 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Submerge

UWr Miracle:
-4 Force of Will
-2 Tresure Cruise
+2 Null rod
+2 Mealstrom Pulse
+2 Golgari Charm

UWbg Deathblade:
-2 Treasure Cruise
-4 Force of Will
+2 Null Rod
+2 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Golgari Charm

Burn/UR Delver:
-2 Vendilion Clique
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-3 Thoughtseize
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Golgari Charm

Elves:
-1 Bayou
-4 Daze
-2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Submerge
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Disfigure

Sneak And Show:
-2 Treasure Cruise
-1 Bayou
-3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Golgari Charm

ANT:
-2 Treasure Cruise
-1 Bayou
-4 Abrupt Decay
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Null Rod
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Golgari Charm

[David Kaplan]

I got 11th in Worcester... Two close losses to Viking Funeral with MD PoP and UWR Delver. I wanted to play this deck because I think the Delver-Cruise MUs were fairly close and this one has the best game vs. combo (as well as free wins off DRS/Wasteland). Delver match-ups are fairly cruise oriented (my plan was to use DRS+Stifle). I sided out a Cruise a lot, but I think you want 4 in the maindeck because it sucks to lose games where you don't see any.

If your meta is infested with VF, just tell them to Chill.

Congrats. I think the maindeck is perfect, the 1 Dimir Charm is working out nicely for me. How often would you have preferred Hydroblast or Divert to Chill?

[exallium]

So are more and more people on the Stifle train now? Does it line up better with running Treasure Cruise? It seems like Hymn gets the axe in Bob's recent list. Not sure how I feel about that.

[iostream]

Stifle is fine and generally good, but I think there's something to be said for metagaming a little harder. To be specific: I am perfectly happy with 55 cards in the deck:

19 lands
4 DRS/Goyf/Delver
4 BS/FoW/TC/Daze/Ponder/Decay

And so there are 5 flex slots. Everyone knows how good the delve cards are, so I expect that the most popular decks at the SCG or GP NJ metagame will be Delver/Cruise decks of all types, with most of the rest of the metagame filled out by decks that traditionally have positive Delver matchups: Miracles, very fast combo (e.g. Storm), and controlling Stoneforge Mystic decks like Deathblade or D+T. Against this gauntlet, 4 Stifle/1 Charm choice for the flex slots is very reasonable, but I'm not convinced it's the most powerful approach. Perhaps it would be better to attack the haymakers (Cruise, Terminus, equipment) more head-on, since those are the cards that actually matter. Perhaps something like 2 Vendilion Clique/2 Spell Pierce/1 Disfigure? The Disfigure might seem random, but pre-boarding a little bit against Delver seems right to me - maybe we could even run 2 maindeck Disfigures.

[FoolofaTook]

The Worcester list is a great list.

Why no Spell Pierce main?

Is Dimir Charm good enough to go 2-of in this meta?

How is the game 1 matchup against Elves, Merfolk and D&T?

How is the matchup against Burn overall?

[iostream]

So are more and more people on the Stifle train now? Does it line up better with running Treasure Cruise? It seems like Hymn gets the axe in Bob's recent list. Not sure how I feel about that.
Generally, I think spells you can fire off whenever you like synergize better with Cruise, not reactive spells. The trouble is that discard sucks right now - Hymn is overcome by Cruise, and Thoughtseize matches up poorly against UR Delver and its ilk. Stifle is the conventional alternative to Hymn, so I think that's why it's getting played, but as I just posted, it might be good to try running more powerful cards instead (at the cost of flexibility).

[Goddik]

Stifle is fine and generally good, but I think there's something to be said for metagaming a little harder. To be specific: I am perfectly happy with 55 cards in the deck:

19 lands
4 DRS/Goyf/Delver
4 BS/FoW/TC/Daze/Ponder/Decay

And so there are 5 flex slots. Everyone knows how good the delve cards are, so I expect that the most popular decks at the SCG or GP NJ metagame will be Delver/Cruise decks of all types, with most of the rest of the metagame filled out by decks that traditionally have positive Delver matchups: Miracles, very fast combo (e.g. Storm), and controlling Stoneforge Mystic decks like Deathblade or D+T. Against this gauntlet, 4 Stifle/1 Charm choice for the flex slots is very reasonable, but I'm not convinced it's the most powerful approach. Perhaps it would be better to attack the haymakers (Cruise, Terminus, equipment) more head-on, since those are the cards that actually matter. Perhaps something like 2 Vendilion Clique/2 Spell Pierce/1 Disfigure? The Disfigure might seem random, but pre-boarding a little bit against Delver seems right to me - maybe we could even run 2 maindeck Disfigures.

I completely agree with your sentiment. My current setup is 2 flusterstorm,2 disfigure and 2 dimir charms, with one less decay in the main. This has been quite helpfull in fighting creatures and cruises. More testing is certainly desirable though.

[FoolofaTook]

19 lands
4 DRS/Goyf/Delver
4 BS/FoW/TC/Daze/Ponder/Decay



This is a really good take on the 55 main.

Assuming that Stifle is 4x in the flex 5 you're basically running RUG Canadian's game plan but a turn slower on the removal and without reach. That feels like a straddle between the all out tempo assault of RUG and TA and the more controlling BUG variants. Is it in a sweet spot in that position or is it a bit less due to the lack of reach and decay removing a turn later than bolt and the threats not having the staying power of either RUG Canadian (Nimble Mongoose) or BUG Control (TNN)?

[exallium]

Stifle is fine and generally good, but I think there's something to be said for metagaming a little harder. To be specific: I am perfectly happy with 55 cards in the deck:

19 lands
4 DRS/Goyf/Delver
4 BS/FoW/TC/Daze/Ponder/Decay

And so there are 5 flex slots. Everyone knows how good the delve cards are, so I expect that the most popular decks at the SCG or GP NJ metagame will be Delver/Cruise decks of all types, with most of the rest of the metagame filled out by decks that traditionally have positive Delver matchups: Miracles, very fast combo (e.g. Storm), and controlling Stoneforge Mystic decks like Deathblade or D+T. Against this gauntlet, 4 Stifle/1 Charm choice for the flex slots is very reasonable, but I'm not convinced it's the most powerful approach. Perhaps it would be better to attack the haymakers (Cruise, Terminus, equipment) more head-on, since those are the cards that actually matter. Perhaps something like 2 Vendilion Clique/2 Spell Pierce/1 Disfigure? The Disfigure might seem random, but pre-boarding a little bit against Delver seems right to me - maybe we could even run 2 maindeck Disfigures.

I've seen disfigure in main-decks before, so I think that's reasonable. Currently, my "flex slots" are 4 Hymns and a land, and I've been moving back and forward between 4 Cruises vs 2 Cruise/2 Lili.
My line of thinking is that Cruise provides card advantage, as does Hymn (as it disadvantages your opponent) and Liliana. Card mass is great in a tempo deck, making draw 3 a great effect.

MD clique is a great tradeoff for stifle because it can accomplish a lot of the same goals, such as dealing with miracle cards as well as stoneforge activations. It also brings our threat count up to 14, which is significant.

Hymn to me is there to tear their hand apart, and I think I'd run it main deck over spell pierce. At best, it gets rid of land drops or other high impact action. At worse, it forces action on their behalf. One of the great things to me about this deck is how many angles it can apply pressure from.

@FoolsOfATook
I think we should be less on the land destruction plan and more of the midrange plan. This is the best delver deck in the midgame, so that's where we should be trying to shine.

[iostream]

I completely agree with your sentiment. My current setup is 2 flusterstorm,2 disfigure and 2 dimir charms, with one less decay in the main. This has been quite helpfull in fighting creatures and cruises. More testing is certainly desirable though.Have you found that Flusterstorm only targeting instants and sorceries is a problem? I imagine Jace and hardcast equipments are going to be two of our biggest targets

[Goddik]

Yes, Jace and equipment is generally a problem. I have a continous headache with the esper deathblade deck, because it attacks from so many angles, and both Jace, Nemesis and batterskull can be issues. I would love to hear some thoughts on bringing down that menace. I don't really know whether to stick to a tempo plan in the matchup or try to go bigger with jaces and sweepes or something similar

Flusterstorm compared to pierce
yes, it is definately an issue as compared to spell pierce that you can't hit equipment and planeswalkers. The problem with spell pierce is that it, in my experience, is really easy to play around, with daze and just laying lands. The question is not pierce or fluster, but fluster or thoughtseize/stifle. Flusterstorm is REALLY good at beating force on your own cruises, and can usually nap a cruise, sometimes together with a daze. It is also really easy to hit opposing plows and bolts with it, so it is it usually does something usefull.

[FoolofaTook]

@FoolsOfATook
I think we should be less on the land destruction plan and more of the midrange plan. This is the best delver deck in the midgame, so that's where we should be trying to shine.

So what can you add in the 5 flex slots that are mid-range bombs? Because my experience with playing a mid-range control BUG is that it has great matchups against much of the meta but it has some areas, like vs Tribal, where it is just too slow and the speed issue is very hard to fix out of the SB because you're down a game already and one bad draw can sink you.

[David Kaplan]

Congrats. I think the maindeck is perfect, the 1 Dimir Charm is working out nicely for me. How often would you have preferred Hydroblast or Divert to Chill?

Another SB option I've found to be very strong is Pithing Needle. Specifically against Miracles (Top), Elves (Symbiote/Heritage/Ranger), D&T (Vial/Stoneforge/Mom) and Sneak Attack.

[exallium]

So what can you add in the 5 flex slots that are mid-range bombs? Because my experience with playing a mid-range control BUG is that it has great matchups against much of the meta but it has some areas, like vs Tribal, where it is just too slow and the speed issue is very hard to fix out of the SB because you're down a game already and one bad draw can sink you.

That's sort of what I'm trying to figure out. I'm interested in trying the 4x Stifle 1x Dimir Charm, given I can get my hands on some stifles. I only have 3 Seas, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou as far as BUG duals go, but I should be able to make it work (Maybe 3 Sea 2 Trop 1 Bayou?)

[KobeBryan]

That's sort of what I'm trying to figure out. I'm interested in trying the 4x Stifle 1x Dimir Charm, given I can get my hands on some stifles. I only have 3 Seas, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou as far as BUG duals go, but I should be able to make it work (Maybe 3 Sea 2 Trop 1 Bayou?)

With the stifle build trop becomes your most important land

[exallium]

With the stifle build trop becomes your most important land

edit: found a trop to borrow. Looks like I'm going to run Bob's list this weekend, with a small tweak to the board.

[FoolofaTook]

Yes, Jace and equipment is generally a problem. I have a continous headache with the esper deathblade deck, because it attacks from so many angles, and both Jace, Nemesis and batterskull can be issues. I would love to hear some thoughts on bringing down that menace. I don't really know whether to stick to a tempo plan in the matchup or try to go bigger with jaces and sweepes or something similar


Krosan Grip out of the SB is the answer to Batterskull. It's the answer to EoT problems with top and to top in general. It really is worth two slots in the SB. If the meta were different it might be a 1-of but with the heavy penetration of Miracles and Stoneblade, which may be 20% of the meta between them at this point it's worth it.

[doombot]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.

[iostream]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.4 is a lot of mana, especially in the Wasteland mirror... I think it's a good idea that's probably maximized in a slower BUG deck, but perhaps it is good here, too. Test it!

[KobeBryan]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.

Notion thief is not for the mirror. You don't have enough lands to cast it.

Notion thief is for miracles.

[doombot]

How is it a lot of mana when you aren't even going to be cruising until turn 4 or 5?

[iostream]

How is it a lot of mana when you aren't even going to be cruising until turn 4 or 5?Because we run only 19-20 lands, four of which are Wastelands, and our own lands are being hit by our opponent's Wastelands in the mirror. We also set back our own land drops a lot with Daze. It often happens that you have to operate off of one land for many turns.

[Thorhammer]

Forgot to say that yes it is 61 card but it preforms realy good. I was wondering is 3 stifles ok or it must be 4 and what do you thing about 2 thoughtseize is it better than hymn or maybe dimir charm insted ?
Thx again

I don't think Thoughtseize is well positioned right now since people just shrug it off and draw three with Treasure Cruise. Two hymn's have been good for me but i am debating switching to Stifle just to make people fear it. Hymn to Tourach is just pretty backbreaking against so many decks.

[eostby]

I've moved my Hymns to the board. I figure the places you need them most you can bring them in from the board, and they aren't just dead in your deck game 1 against other TC decks. Of course, I did promote a Liliana main deck to make this move, so I'm a little less concerned about discard anyway.

[sharke]

I've moved my Hymns to the board. I figure the places you need them most you can bring them in from the board, and they aren't just dead in your deck game 1 against other TC decks. Of course, I did promote a Liliana main deck to make this move, so I'm a little less concerned about discard anyway.

I dont thing thoughtasize is less good becaouse of a tc.he will always take something good, special vs miracle, stonforge, combos... And burn also, i mean better losse 2 lifes than 3,4 or evan more(price of progres)And extra provide us a information that is realy imoprtant now. And stifles is realy good against so many thing. Mana denial,protecting our land, miracle, sfm,even prevent delver from fliping, maybe give us time against jtms.and it seems to me that only 12 threat is a little small for putting konstant presure.
Feel free to corekt me .
Again sry for grammer.

[Borealis]

How come with Treasure Cruise running more rampant there is no mention of us running at least 1 Notion Thief in the sideboard? Especially in the mirror, doesn't die to their decay, could be insane.

Yeah, I threw a copy in my "SB pile" last night while putting the deck together, for funsies. But I think people are generally right, 4 mana is a lot in the mirror, and against any Delver deck really. It's not even getting to 4 mana, so much as being able to hold it up without raising suspicion. But to be sure, getting to 4 mana in time to "counter" their Treasure Cruise is also a bit dicey. I'm still going to test it though, as I think a lot of the UR decks are just cutting Wasteland and Stifle altogether, am I wrong? With Treasure Cruise literally EVERYWHERE now, the pay off might be worth the heftier mana cost. Almost a poor man's Jace now.

Unfortunately, it doesn't counter Dig Through Time, which is pretty relevant. If it did that, it might actually be good enough to justify a slot, since it could come in against Combo/Control AND the mirror. Either way, it's going to feel REAL good reminding people that card exists again! :)

I think Thoughtseize is fine, but not amazing. It doesn't do much against UR Delver or Burn, and really any deck with Cruise or Dig can overpower it in the later game. But early on it's still as good a tool as always. Liliana is similarly not amazing in a TC-infested field, but I think she's still fine as a 1-of in your main or side as long as there are enough fair and/or combo decks that still struggle with her. I'm going to run Bob Huang's exact list for testing first, but if I wanted to have a 13th threat right now, I'd actually consider Sylvan Library. It ensures you can find your Treasure Cruise first, and it's hard for many decks to remove. But more than likely, it's best to just stick with the SB Creeping Tarpit as an extra threat, and any planeswalkers or Notion Thiefs that I can fit in there. With Treasure Cruise, it's not hard to find another threat when necessary these days.

[CroSS.24]

So here's the list I used last week to win a mox sapphire and my 2 byes for gp jersey

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


Spells (28)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise


Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Arcane Laboratory
3 Disfigure
2 Divert
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse


All I really did was swap out Dark Confidants for treasure cruise. I don't know which I actually prefer. Treasure cruise is very nice at rebuilding the hand right away, but dark confidant has always been a great card for me. I do plan on running treasure cruise for the foreseeable future though. I have been very happy with the main deck. And as far as stifle goes for being a "surprise" people still don't expect it out of this deck. If more people start playing stifle it will be expected, but as of right now it is still a surprise.