[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[eostby]

Sharke, I'm not even running Thoughtseize, and Hymn is a slightly different card anyway. 2 at random =/= 1 chosen.

[Dragonslayer_90]

All I really did was swap out Dark Confidants for treasure cruise. I don't know which I actually prefer. Treasure cruise is very nice at rebuilding the hand right away, but dark confidant has always been a great card for me.

So this may sound crazy at first by why not play both treasure cruise and dark confidant? My friend has a European friend who did well at tournament doing this: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15005&iddeck=111213. Also, another friend told me that LSV did something similar except played bob and cruise in a grixis Delver shell and did well with it in a daily or two. Might be worth investigating what most people deem a nonbo.

[Manipulato]

A BUG Delver list made yesterday Top 8 through 10 rounds of legacy.

http:// http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/eternalweekend14/legacy-championship-top-8-decklists-2014-10-25

The list is missing 4 Delver by the way.

I think the manabase is not optimal because of the 2 bayous and the 1 Pulse MD is a bit surprising. He's also only playing 1 TC and 3 Thoughtseize which a lot of people here are against...

Thoughts?

[Grand Superior]

Lol @ "Death-Rite Shaman" being counted as "other." I suppose even Wizards thinks of him as a one mana planeswalker.

I'm glad we got a Team America list in the top 8. While I have liked Maelstrom Pulse as a one-of catchall for preboard games, I do disagree with some of his deckbuilding decisions (less than 9 fetchlands, Spell Pierce maindeck, only 1 Treasure Cruise, any TNN). Can't argue with results, I suppose. If a Delver deck has to win today, I hope it's his.

On another note, I'm playing at an event today. Currently running the stock 55 with 4 Thoughtseize + 1 Liliana as my flex slots. I'm not 100% happy with Thoughtseize but it seems better than Hymn in the Treasure Cruise world and I'm still unconvinced by Stifle's effectiveness in this deck. I did bring my Stifles just in case I wanted to change at the last minute.

[iostream]

Here's a question: is True Name-Nemesis any better or worse after TC? I generally have not liked it, but with edict effects and sweepers at an all time low, perhaps a mirror breaker would be good? I've seen it in a few successful BUG lists lately.

[btm10]

Here's a question: is True Name-Nemesis any better or worse after TC? I generally have not liked it, but with edict effects and sweepers at an all time low, perhaps a mirror breaker would be good? I've seen it in a few successful BUG lists lately.

I like it just as an additional threat, for what it's worth. Sometimes you just need to block an opposing Tarmogoyf, or have an unblockable creature, or have something that's resistant to removal. I tried Clique as threat #13, but TNN is just better.

[eostby]

I like it just as an additional threat, for what it's worth. Sometimes you just need to block an opposing Tarmogoyf, or have an unblockable creature, or have something that's resistant to removal. I tried Clique as threat #13, but TNN is just better.

I actually have 1 TNN and 1 VClique main as threats 13 and 14. Most of the time, they're basically the same creature, but they both have advantages and disadvantages.

[Gunseng]

I dislike TNN in most lists. A 3 power creature just feels underwhelming without any equipment or lords to pump it. Clique at least offers some additional hand disruption and flash.

I played in a local tournament on saturday and had some trouble with Miracles. I am not sure how to correctly sideboard against them. I need the needle and null rod to shut down top, but I also want my hand disruption and counter spells. Any advice? My deck currently looks like this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard
==========
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Chill

[YamiJoey]

-4 Daze
+1 Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Clique
+1 Force

That would be my advice. Daze is really bad. They will play around it in the early game and won't need to late. It's done it's job by simply existing in the format, so you can play your high impact cards. Taxing doesn't work that well on them. They just make land drops until they can pay for whatever tricks you have, and it leaves you holding a Pierce up instead of dropping a relevant threat.

I'd board like this, and just remind you not to make Terminus good. If they 2-1 you with a Terminus you can forget about it. You have methods of fighting the CA, it's just that they deal with threats so efficiently. If you can keep them 1-1ing and sneak in some 2-1's like Hymn or Liliana (sort of) then you're gravy. Also, never Sacrifice Liliana. Her -2 and -6 must be used sparingly. They topdeck super well with a Top in play, but keeping cards like Brainstorm from being very good is key, and you'll find a Needle or Rod eventually.

You could also pull out a Decay, but I'm not sure you need to. It's not very good G2.

EDIT: Also; is there nothing better than Chill? It seems super weak to draw it late.

[JohnBell]

-4 Daze
+1 Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Clique
+1 Force

That would be my advice. Daze is really bad. They will play around it in the early game and won't need to late. It's done it's job by simply existing in the format, so you can play your high impact cards. Taxing doesn't work that well on them. They just make land drops until they can pay for whatever tricks you have, and it leaves you holding a Pierce up instead of dropping a relevant threat.
Why you prefer FoW versus UWr Micracle? Two for one is really bad...
Do you play Team America? Can you post there your list?


Also; is there nothing better than Chill? It seems super weak to draw it late.
I test Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast for Blood Moon. Is a bad idea?

[btm10]

Why you prefer FoW versus UWr Micracle? Two for one is really bad...
Do you play Team America? Can you post there your list?

It's pretty easy to get them playing off the top with Top, especially if you're running Hymn (though honestly, not the biggest fan of Hymn in this matchup, or at all anymore, really). You only care about 4-6 cards out of their whole deck (Jaces and Entreats) after about turn 4, but stopping those cards is critical. If your opponent is Hellbent, the CA doesn't matter because they can't effectively fight a counterwar over their only win conditions.



I test Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast for Blood Moon. Is a bad idea?

BEB is pretty narrow. Grip, Golgari Charm, and Abrupt Decay should be enough.


I dislike TNN in most lists. A 3 power creature just feels underwhelming without any equipment or lords to pump it. Clique at least offers some additional hand disruption and flash.


If Clique is fulfilling your needs, that's great. It's just too fragile in matches where I want a more robust threat. I run one in the board, and it's great in lots of matchups, but not all of them.



I played in a local tournament on saturday and had some trouble with Miracles. I am not sure how to correctly sideboard against them. I need the needle and null rod to shut down top, but I also want my hand disruption and counter spells. Any advice? My deck currently looks like this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard
==========
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Chill

If Miracles is giving you problems, I'd change the maindeck is follows:
-4 Hymn
-1 Land
+1 Force
+1 Dimir Charm
+1 Liliana
+2 Spell Pierce

and the sideboard as:
-1 Force
-3 Spell Pierce
+1 Sylvan Library or Zur's Weirding
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Maelstrom Pulse

Then postboard you change:
-4 Daze
-2 Wasteland
-1 Liliana
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
+1 Sylvan Library or Zur's Weirding
+1 Clique
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Maelstrom Pulse

Like I said above, you don't care about Terminus, especially with 9 Fetches. Put your guys on the bottom, and just shuffle your library afterward. I generally don't run more than 2 creatures out against them at once, and use cantrips to make sure I have backup threats in my hand for when Terminus comes. Stop Top when you can, but don't worry if you can't. Liliana backed up by countermagic - especially Force and Dimir Charm - is backbreaking, and recently conventional wisdom among Miracles players has shifted to not putting much emphasis on countering her. If she connects, be judicious with her +1 (and don't ultimate her at 6), but even something as crude as triple Stone Rain can swing the game hugely in your favor by turning Daze and Pierce back on. Liliana + Sylvan Library means you basically can't lose, as does Zur's Weirding.

In my experience the matchup ranges from 50/50 against good Miracles players to pretty lopsided against bad ones. I have a Sylvan Library and a Weirding in my board (a few pages back) but that's because I have a lot of slow decks and Sneak and Show in my local meta, as well as the mirror (where Library is excellent), but both (especially Weirding) shine in the Miracles matchup.

[o_boogie]

Gunseng, your list looks fine. For Miracles I would side -4 Daze, -2 Wasteland; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Null Rod, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Force of Will, +2 Spell Pierce. If your opponent sides out Counterbalance I would also consider -2 Abrupt Decay; +2 Golgari Charm.

I have found the best way to beat Miracles is a combination of things:
1) Do not overextend into Terminus.
2) It is worth fighting over Top; it is hard to beat a resolved Top. Miracles is significantly worse without it.
3) It is always worth fighting over Jace and Entreat. Since the deck is so threat light I find its better to fight over these with permission and just accept the fact that they will be killing your threats with STP and Terminus. You can always rebuild with Brainstorm/Ponder/Cruise.
5) Hymn to Tourach is fantastic. Yes it can suck late game if your opponent has a Top and is hellbent. However, if you can fire it off early it has the potential for tremendous blowouts.
6) Use Deathrite Shaman aggressively to reduce any value that could be gained from Snapcaster Mage.
7) Vendilion Clique is very important; it can kill a Jace with EOT flash or remove a miracle'd Terminus.

After practicing against the matchup enough you'll be fine.

[SansSerif]

How is Flusterstorm against Miracles? I would think it would be good early (STP, brainstorm, early terminus), but it will not stop any of their haymaker after turn 5 or so. Late game it would only be good to win counter wars

I would be siding out FOW for Flusterstorm - is that worth it?

[btm10]

Flusterstorm can't hit Blood Moon or Jace, so I'd rather have Force.

[Thorhammer]

I would also like to emphasize Creeping Tar pit. It is tough for them to Terminus since they can't naturally miracle it and gets by Jace (kills him actually).
Dimir Charm is also really good against them as you only care about there nasty sorceries. True Name nemesis is also a threat that is good against them since they can only terminus it. I would put a little more emphasis into countering Terminus since if you can get one out of the way it usually means another good chunk of damage. The matchup seems to be very player dependent. There are good miracles players and bad ones. Rookie miracles players just have too many intricacies to remember and they will give you mistakes to work with more often. Good miracles players are just tough to beat no matter what you play.

A resolved Zur's Weirding and Miracles enters scoop phase.

[Gunseng]

Thanks for the great advice guys, I really appreciate it.

[FoolofaTook]

I dislike TNN in most lists. A 3 power creature just feels underwhelming without any equipment or lords to pump it. Clique at least offers some additional hand disruption and flash.

I played in a local tournament on saturday and had some trouble with Miracles. I am not sure how to correctly sideboard against them. I need the needle and null rod to shut down top, but I also want my hand disruption and counter spells. Any advice? My deck currently looks like this:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard
==========
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Chill

If you want to beat Miracles replace the hand disruption with hard counters. Some combination of Dimir Charm, Counterspell and Spell Snare main. A Krosan Grip or two in the SB.

Hand disruption is worth nothing against Miracles after turn 4 because by then they're playing on the top of their library and waiting for an inflection point.

[JohnBell]

A resolved Zur's Weirding and Miracles enters scoop phase.

Four in too much mana...
Arcane Laboratory (http://magiccards.info/us/en/60.html) is a bad idea? can be useful versus Elves, ANT etc...

[phazonmutant]

I played Team America at Legacy Champs. Had a good run until round 5, then hit the bad end of variance. I ended up dropping at 5-3 since the tournament started two hours late, the round turnover was atrocious, and I would prefer to eat and drink than try to win $50 credit.

I've been testing Stifle, Hymn, and Thoughtseize. Of the three, I still prefer Hymn. The Stifle lists have a somewhat shaky manabase with only 6 or so duals - I find that I get knocked off black too much when it matters. Also holding up Stifle can be tough and I've found Pierce to be pretty atrocious right now in tempo decks. That being said, I've never liked or been especially good with the Pierce/Stifle tempo decks. Thoughtseize is trading one-for-one when most decks are either incredibly redundant or can reload off the top or both. Hymn is incredibly disruptive, can hit lands, and follows the plan of denying them resources to function.

So that choice informs most of the rest of the decklist. Other changes are because of Cruise. It encourages more Forces main, less discard, more lands (because the easiest way to stop Cruise is to prevent the opponent from casting spells), and fewer Dazes (decks tend to be more resource-heavy, including lands).

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secretes
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

// Sideboard
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Overall the list is pretty tuned to beat Miracles. Hymn, Lili, Tar Pit, and Library are all difficult cards for them in the maindeck, and they have a high amount of crossover for the expected field. I was testing with 4 Cruise and it was sometimes clunky so I tried out Sylvan Library again. It's an incredible card against the white decks, just as it's always been, but I think it was a mistake to cut the fourth Cruise in retrospect. I would absolutely play with 4 Cruise and a Library - this deck can very quickly put the opponent facing down an insurmountable board advantage with enough resources. Right now it plays more like a midrange-control deck than a midrange-aggro deck like it was before. BEB and Jitte were for the UR Delver matchup, and that plus Charm should make it pretty even if not favorable for BUG. I really had reservations about cutting the second Pierce - the list as-is is much weaker to combo than it was before.

R1 Esper Ashiok Control - His deck was bad and he was mediocre. 1-0, 2-0
R2 Old U/R Delver - He had Lavamancers and friends instead of Cruise. Beat him easily with Goyfs preboard, and with my hateful board post. 2-0, 4-0
R3 BUG Control - He mulliganed both games and didn't really get to play magic between Hymn and Wasteland. 3-0, 6-0
R4 Deathblade - Game 2 he beat down with True Names for days, but Games 1 and 3 I Wasted and Hymned him into oblivion. His greedy manabase came back to bite him. 4-0, 8-1
R5 Threshold - I win 2 interesting games. I didn't give him a chance to Stifle any lands, and played around Bolt and Pierce when I had to win a game at 4 staring down Goyfs. 5-0, 10-1
R6 UR Delver - Games 1 and 3 he won with Pyromancer. I didn't flip Delver for 5 turns, and still could have drawn Golgari Charm or Jitte to win. Game 2 he Fireblasted Goyf... 5-1, 11-3
R7 Reanimator - Turn 1 Griselbrand on the play. Done here. Next game I have Cage, he bricks on Show and Tells. Game 3 I don't Force a second Careful Study (I Dazed the first), and he had Force protection for his Exhume next turn. Probably a mistake there. 5-2, 12-5
R8 I really can't remember this match. I lost and dropped.

[ESG]

Overall the list is pretty tuned to beat Miracles. Hymn, Lili, Tar Pit, and Library are all difficult cards for them in the maindeck, and they have a high amount of crossover for the expected field. I was testing with 4 Cruise and it was sometimes clunky so I tried out Sylvan Library again. It's an incredible card against the white decks, just as it's always been, but I think it was a mistake to cut the fourth Cruise in retrospect. I would absolutely play with 4 Cruise and a Library - this deck can very quickly put the opponent facing down an insurmountable board advantage with enough resources. Right now it plays more like a midrange-control deck than a midrange-aggro deck like it was before. BEB and Jitte were for the UR Delver matchup, and that plus Charm should make it pretty even if not favorable for BUG. I really had reservations about cutting the second Pierce - the list as-is is much weaker to combo than it was before.

Nice run. Too bad about fizzling out at the end. What was the field like? Did you get any time to scout? You came prepared for Miracles but didn't face it over eight rounds. Did Miracles not show up in force, or was it in a different bracket? How about the numbers for combo? Having a bunch of decks running Force isn't the greatest for combo, but most of the Cruise decks have primarily dropped secondary permission or disruption in order to play the draw engine, which puts combo in a decent spot.

[btm10]

I played Team America at Legacy Champs. Had a good run until round 5, then hit the bad end of variance. I ended up dropping at 5-3 since the tournament started two hours late, the round turnover was atrocious, and I would prefer to eat and drink than try to win $50 credit.

I've been testing Stifle, Hymn, and Thoughtseize. Of the three, I still prefer Hymn. The Stifle lists have a somewhat shaky manabase with only 6 or so duals - I find that I get knocked off black too much when it matters. Also holding up Stifle can be tough and I've found Pierce to be pretty atrocious right now in tempo decks. That being said, I've never liked or been especially good with the Pierce/Stifle tempo decks. Thoughtseize is trading one-for-one when most decks are either incredibly redundant or can reload off the top or both. Hymn is incredibly disruptive, can hit lands, and follows the plan of denying them resources to function.

...

Overall the list is pretty tuned to beat Miracles. Hymn, Lili, Tar Pit, and Library are all difficult cards for them in the maindeck, and they have a high amount of crossover for the expected field. I was testing with 4 Cruise and it was sometimes clunky so I tried out Sylvan Library again. It's an incredible card against the white decks, just as it's always been, but I think it was a mistake to cut the fourth Cruise in retrospect. I would absolutely play with 4 Cruise and a Library - this deck can very quickly put the opponent facing down an insurmountable board advantage with enough resources. Right now it plays more like a midrange-control deck than a midrange-aggro deck like it was before. BEB and Jitte were for the UR Delver matchup, and that plus Charm should make it pretty even if not favorable for BUG. I really had reservations about cutting the second Pierce - the list as-is is much weaker to combo than it was before.


Sorry your last two rounds didn't come together all that well. A strong showing nonetheless. I really like this take on the deck and will be testing some of the modifications you've made from the other Cruise lists running around, including my own. I probably won't go up to the fourth Cruise, but I've been looking to get Sylvan back into the maindeck - trimming a Daze is probably worth revisiting (I had done it just before Cruise was printed but ended up not being happy with it). I'm definitely off of the 13th creature and have had a similar experience to yours in feeling like the deck wants to slow down and be controlling. I've generally removed Dazes postboard against Blade decks and other Delver strategies in favor of lots of board interaction, and part of that package are Sylvan and Tar Pit (which means that both are coming in in basically all non-combo matchups). I take it that Hymn wasn't as ineffective as many had expected against other Cruise decks? I've been relatively happy with Thoughtseize recently, but I'm totally open to Hymn if it's been working for you. Every time I've tested Stifle it's seemed really marginal, even though at least one person at my shop has had a lot of success with it.

Anyway, did fine at the local last night. Went 3-1, beating Infect, Sneak and Show, UR Delver, and losing to UWR Delver. Game 1 of the last match I got triple Wastelanded and had two Deathrites killed, and game 2 I took a hit off of a flipped Delver to set up a 2-for-1 that ended up leaving me in double bolt range after I stabilized the board and died to double Bolt off of Treasure Cruise. I feel like I need to test UWR-Delver a little more to see if my old SB strategy of "kill everything they play" will still be effective in a post-Cruise meta, or if my approach to the match is flawed when they can easily reload.

[iostream]

Nice run. Too bad about fizzling out at the end. What was the field like? Did you get any time to scout? You came prepared for Miracles but didn't face it over eight rounds. Did Miracles not show up in force, or was it in a different bracket? How about the numbers for combo? Having a bunch of decks running Force isn't the greatest for combo, but most of the Cruise decks have primarily dropped secondary permission or disruption in order to play the draw engine, which puts combo in a decent spot.
Yeah, I'm curious about why the list was tuned to beat Miracles. It seems like the thing to actually metagame against should be UR and UWR Delver - against those decks, maindeck Tar Pit seems really wrong. As for combo, only one made top 8, and only a handful more showed up in the top 24, so I think his decision to cut cards against combo was definitely right.

[phazonmutant]

Nice run. Too bad about fizzling out at the end. What was the field like? Did you get any time to scout? You came prepared for Miracles but didn't face it over eight rounds. Did Miracles not show up in force, or was it in a different bracket? How about the numbers for combo? Having a bunch of decks running Force isn't the greatest for combo, but most of the Cruise decks have primarily dropped secondary permission or disruption in order to play the draw engine, which puts combo in a decent spot.

Thanks! TONS of UR Delver. That's by far the most standout thing. I didn't scout much, but I'll share my impressions. I didn't see much Miracles or combo - I think the Reanimator player I lost to might have been one of the few at the top tables. I know Bob Huang dropped at 2-2 with Sneak and Show. For the most part, just a pile of Delver decks.

Bob agreed that UR seems weak to Combo, but that deck just consistently seems to do its thing regardless of expectations (in both Vintage and Legacy). Even if it doesn't have that much interaction, it seems to always draw it because it has so much velocity.


Sorry your last two rounds didn't come together all that well. A strong showing nonetheless. I really like this take on the deck and will be testing some of the modifications you've made from the other Cruise lists running around, including my own. I probably won't go up to the fourth Cruise, but I've been looking to get Sylvan back into the maindeck - trimming a Daze is probably worth revisiting (I had done it just before Cruise was printed but ended up not being happy with it). I'm definitely off of the 13th creature and have had a similar experience to yours in feeling like the deck wants to slow down and be controlling. I've generally removed Dazes postboard against Blade decks and other Delver strategies in favor of lots of board interaction, and part of that package are Sylvan and Tar Pit (which means that both are coming in in basically all non-combo matchups). I take it that Hymn wasn't as ineffective as many had expected against other Cruise decks? I've been relatively happy with Thoughtseize recently, but I'm totally open to Hymn if it's been working for you. Every time I've tested Stifle it's seemed really marginal, even though at least one person at my shop has had a lot of success with it.

Anyway, did fine at the local last night. Went 3-1, beating Infect, Sneak and Show, UR Delver, and losing to UWR Delver. Game 1 of the last match I got triple Wastelanded and had two Deathrites killed, and game 2 I took a hit off of a flipped Delver to set up a 2-for-1 that ended up leaving me in double bolt range after I stabilized the board and died to double Bolt off of Treasure Cruise. I feel like I need to test UWR-Delver a little more to see if my old SB strategy of "kill everything they play" will still be effective in a post-Cruise meta, or if my approach to the match is flawed when they can easily reload.

Me too :/ Thanks though! Agreed, I cut Daze against every non-combo matchup on the draw, and only leave it in on the play in a few. I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to trim another. Hymn has still been pretty amazing. Before they Cruise, it can sometimes hit the Cruise or the lands they need. After the Cruise, it's one of the few cards that recoup advantage and can knock them off their position of inevitability. I might try more Thoughtseize main or in the board again since this build is weaker to combo.


Yeah, I'm curious about why the list was tuned to beat Miracles. It seems like the thing to actually metagame against should be UR and UWR Delver - against those decks, maindeck Tar Pit seems really wrong. As for combo, only one made top 8, and only a handful more showed up in the top 24, so I think his decision to cut cards against combo was definitely right.

Definitely, Tar Pit is not amazing against UR and UWR. It's fine as the 20th land though, and good in Stoneblade matchups in general. I think I was tuning for a different regional metagame than Eternal Weekend. In the Pacific Northwest, there is an unholy horde of Miracles players. At sdematt's Win-A-Mox the weekend before the event, there were 3 Miracles in the top 8, and each top 8 player faced Miracles at least twice. Also Death & Taxes is well represented here, but was just absent at EW. I think a large part of that is regional meta. So I was just expecting a different field, with more white decks. I expected my board hate against UR to be enough. I think it might be, but I need more testing to be sure.

[Thorhammer]

Definitely, Tar Pit is not amazing against UR and UWR. It's fine as the 20th land though, and good in Stoneblade matchups in general. I think I was tuning for a different regional metagame than Eternal Weekend. In the Pacific Northwest, there is an unholy horde of Miracles players. At sdematt's Win-A-Mox the weekend before the event, there were 3 Miracles in the top 8, and each top 8 player faced Miracles at least twice. Also Death & Taxes is well represented here, but was just absent at EW. I think a large part of that is regional meta. So I was just expecting a different field, with more white decks. I expected my board hate against UR to be enough. I think it might be, but I need more testing to be sure.

Seems also like the Pacific NW likes it's delver decks too. I faced a lot of RUG last time I was there so I wonder if people will make the switch to UR.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hymn has still been pretty amazing. Before they Cruise, it can sometimes hit the Cruise or the lands they need. After the Cruise, it's one of the few cards that recoup advantage and can knock them off their position of inevitability. I might try more Thoughtseize main or in the board again since this build is weaker to combo.

Glad to hear you're still having good success with the deck even if it didn't really come together in the end at Champs. Interesting to see someone come out and say that Hymn isn't as bad as people made it out to be post-Khans again. I haven't had much testing with BUG Delver post-Khans, but I do think people prematurely dismissed Hymn. They want it to always utterly screw the opponent, forgetting that a 2-for-1 for two mana is still pretty alright even if it doesn't outright win the game for you.

[iostream]

I cut Daze against every non-combo matchup on the draw, and only leave it in on the play in a few. I'm wondering if it's worthwhile to trim another. Is it really effective to play just 2 Daze, though? It's always struck me as one of those 4 or 0 cards since you really want to see them in your opener or in the first few turns. Not to mention that cutting free spells inherently makes TC a bit worse.

[Borealis]

Is it really effective to play just 2 Daze, though? It's always struck me as one of those 4 or 0 cards since you really want to see them in your opener or in the first few turns. Not to mention that cutting free spells inherently makes TC a bit worse.

I've done it. The 0 or 4 rule is a good rule of thumb, but doesn't apply to every scenario. Often you want to keep a couple Daze as a "gotcha" effect, or to still be able to interact for Zero Mana despite it not being the best card. Certainly it's worse the later the game goes, but it's also a fine card to pitch to Force or BS away. When you only have a couple, it's easier to mitigate it's downsides while still having a chance to draw it in the perfect spot.

Usually I cut it entirely against fair decks on the draw, but might keep a couple copies against Blue decks. It all depends on the scenario though, as usual.

[phazonmutant]

Is it really effective to play just 2 Daze, though? It's always struck me as one of those 4 or 0 cards since you really want to see them in your opener or in the first few turns. Not to mention that cutting free spells inherently makes TC a bit worse.

I think so. If they see Delver, they'll play around 4 Daze. If they don't, sometimes they assume you're some sort of BUG control and don't play around Daze at all (even midgame). Both cases are good for running 2 Daze. It's also a pretty miserable topdeck. But...the card is really good on the play in the early-to-midgame. I'm not saying I'm correct, just that I've had instances of thinking about setting Daze on fire about as often as being glad I drew it. Daze is a weird one for Cruise - sure it's another spell to cast, but you pick up a land so that kind of negates it. Also the way the deck is built now, it takes better advantage of all of its mana, so putting a land in hand isn't just +1 cards like it used to be.


I've done it. The 0 or 4 rule is a good rule of thumb, but doesn't apply to every scenario. Often you want to keep a couple Daze as a "gotcha" effect, or to still be able to interact for Zero Mana despite it not being the best card. Certainly it's worse the later the game goes, but it's also a fine card to pitch to Force or BS away. When you only have a couple, it's easier to mitigate it's downsides while still having a chance to draw it in the perfect spot.

Usually I cut it entirely against fair decks on the draw, but might keep a couple copies against Blue decks. It all depends on the scenario though, as usual.

Exactly this.

[btm10]

I basically agree with all of this. I'm going to test -1 Daze, +1 Hymn (for the 3/3 split) sometime this weekend. I could easily see cutting another Daze for Sylvan, but I think we want to be more aggressive than that in the new meta, especially against Burn and UR.

[Asthereal]

Hi guys,

Back from some absence in this thread. I had a tournament this weekend and I could not find a Team America list that I really liked, so I went back to the drawing board yesterday and came up with a newish list that I had not seen anywhere yet, and decided to give it a roll today. Later on I will explain how the tournament went, but first I will explain my choices.

I really really wanted to make Cruise work in the deck. The only thing, if any, that this deck lacks, is staying power. Apart from Sylvan Library, of course, but Sylvan is not an instant or sorcery for Delver, it is not blue for Force of Will, and drawing cards costs life, so the disadvantages of Sylvan compared to Cruise are clear. So in order to add Cruise to the deck, I needed not only to make space, but also tune the list a bit. My Tombstalkers would have to go, obviously. More importantly, I felt that any card that sometimes gets clunky and clogs up my hand should have to go, since getting stuck with no double black and two Hymns and a Cruise in hand is just backbreaking. So I decided, after some hard thought, that I wanted to streamline the mana curve as much as I could, so Cruises would be the only awkard cards in my deck. Here's what I came up with:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf /12

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce (replacement for the Hymns)
3 Disfigure (I expected a lot of UR PyroDelver decks)
3 Abrupt Decay /29

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland /19

Side:
4 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast (!!)
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique /15

About the main:
1. Yes, I do miss the Hymns, but I don't miss the times where I couldn't cast them.
2. 29 spells is awesome for flipping Delvers. Suddenly Delver is my best attacker.
3. The list feels really streamlined. Cruise can get stuck in your hand, but that's usually it.

About the side:
1. Most importantly: I boarded in all my sideboard cards in the six matches I played.
2. The Thoughtseizes were the only cards I wasn't really happy with, or sure of anyway. I never cast it, but I'm also not sure whether it belongs in the list. The main deck is somewhat weak to Combo though, so I definitely need something.
3. Sylvan Library was great again as substitute for Cruise. When I expected grave hate, I boarded 1-2 Cruise out and replaced them with the Sylvan, which shone as usual.

The tournament (I won't go into detail too much, but here's a summary):

Round 1 vs UB Tezzeret. 2-0
Awesome deck, but BUG is by far the strongest Delver deck against it because of Decay. Felt like an easy match, though I was lucky here and there.

Round 2 vs Elves. 1-2
He was on the play twice, which was important. Elves is a hard matchup. You need to draw well to hacve a shot. I didn't, and I went down as expected, being on the draw twice and having to mull on both of those games.

Round 3 against Dredge. 2-1
Should have been 2-0, but I messed up my win. I missed the fact that he had an Elesh Norn, which my very late Deathrite could have eaten. I could have raced Grisel by Disfiguring the dude that he would block, preventing the life gain. I am not a good player. :eek:

Round 4 against Burn. 1-2
Burn is not an easy matchup. Very loseable even. Still, I had the win, and I screwed it up again. Game 3 during the critical turn I forgot my Sylvan Library extra draws, which would have given me a Force that I could hardcast, which I missed. That would counter the burn spell that killed me. Even worse, I needed one more point of damage to kill him, and I missed the fact that I could have Decayed my own Sylvan, making Goyf bigger for the win. Again, I am not a good player. :tongue:

Round 5 against Esper Blade. 2-1
Exciting games. I made mistakes in the game I lost. When I played well, he had nothing. But then again Esper feels like a good matchup anyway.

Round 6 against UR PyroDelver. 2-1
There it is! Darkblast was awesome here, killing both Delver and Pyro twice. I got killed on the draw because I stumbled on expensive cards (the first time in the tourney), but this matchup felt very winnable, because of the fact that I had more counters, better creatures and awesome removal.

So I went 4-2, but should have been 5-1 and in the top-8. The biggest enemy of this deck is it's pilot, it seems. I need more practice. Over all I am really happy with the list. Only the sideboard may need some work.

What do you guys think?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I like the list, elves or tribal would be tough. I would change the SB,
-1 maelstrom pulse
-1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Toxic Deluge/Engineered Plague

If your using thoughtsieze for combo, switch them out for Duress, less life loss.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Thoughtseize has better flexibility, sometimes you have to take a grisselbrand, and often times the life loss genuinely doesn't matter

[Asthereal]

Thoughtseize has better flexibility, sometimes you have to take a grisselbrand, and often times the life loss genuinely doesn't matter
That's why I chose Seize over Duress.

But about the rest:
Do you guys think one grave hate card is enough? I always feel I need at least two.
The surgical is the worst, so if I had to cut one, it'd be that one, but I feel I need it.
Maybe I can try -1 Pulse, +1 Deluge as a start. See where that goes.

How badly do we need the Pithing Needles?

[Star|Scream]

Hi guys,


Round 4 against Burn. 1-2
Burn is not an easy matchup. Very loseable even. Still, I had the win, and I screwed it up again. Game 3 during the critical turn I forgot my Sylvan Library extra draws, which would have given me a Force that I could hardcast, which I missed. That would counter the burn spell that killed me.

What do you guys think?

I think I'm missing something. If you drew an extra card from the library wouldn't the 4 life offset the burn spell?

[Asthereal]

I think I'm missing something. If you drew an extra card from the library wouldn't the 4 life offset the burn spell?
I forgot to check three cards instead of one and drew the blank that was on top.
The third card was a Force I could have hardcast on his winning Chain Lightning.
Like I said, I am not a good player. :cry:

[Star|Scream]

I forgot to check three cards instead of one and drew the blank that was on top.
The third card was a Force I could have hardcast on his winning Chain Lightning.
Like I said, I am not a good player. :cry:

I see.

It's normal to make mistakes through the course of a tournament.

[Asthereal]

I see.

It's normal to make mistakes through the course of a tournament.
True. This time they cost me hard cash though.

The deck is very strong. Better than I expected it to be, since I had designed it on notepad -like I always do- but never really tested it. Only a couple of goldfish rounds to see whether the mana curve and the "flow" of the deck were as I expected them to be, and that was it.

[Purgatory]

Top 8'ed a 75-people tournament this weekend, going 5-1-1. I missed top 8 the night before (46 players IIRC) since I lost my win-and-in vs. Death and Taxes ending 4-2-1.


4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm

Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod

3 Cruise felt solid, Dimir Charm felt solid, Stifle felt solid. I would play the exact same 75 any day in an unknown metagame, though DnT is harsh. Elves is difficult too, but manageable after sideboard. UR Delver is pretty 50/50 and draw-dependant, but I didn't lose to it over the weekend.

Report on my blog here (http://goyfwars.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/the-best-of-times/).

[FoolofaTook]

@Purgatory

That's one of the stronger directions to take the list in this meta. All the good things about the blue shell plus 12 great creatures, Abrupt Decay and the Stifle/Waste plan as a secondary element. My only gripe about that type of list is that when Stifle doesn't show up in the opening hand the play is suboptimal against some lists. On the other hand if you go with 4 Stifles and get two of them you're in trouble against others.

Legacy only requires 2 lands to play off of for most lists. That makes BUG Delver + 3 Stifle a straddling list that has to shift directions frequently depending on the 11 cards on top of your pile when you go to draw your opening hand.

RUG Delver has additional assets to just get over the top in terms of denial. An extra Stifle, 4+ turn 1 removal for mana dorks, an extra turn 2 denial spell in Fire//Ice.

I still haven't resolved that 3 card question well in my attempts. I've gone 4 Stifle and 18 lands (really not RUG and iffy as a result), 3 Stifle and 19 lands (straddling) and as many as 3 Spell Pierce, 1 Spell Snare and 1 Counterspell (full on aggro control with weakness against tribal).

If we could figure out that 3 card slot I think BUG Delver would be by far the strongest list in the meta right now.

[TheHeff]

I've been toying around with a couple of the lists suggested on here, just wanted to add my thoughts on here. Almost all of my testing is based on MTGO and that meta (heavy combo/UR Delver presence) so keep that in mind.

I've mainly been toying around with land count (19 or 20) and some of the flex spots (3 or 4 Cruise, Hymn/Thoughtseize/Stifle) as well as numbers in the sideboard. I've been running Chill in my list for awhile now, and even though it hoses Burn (and Goblins, which has been popping up more on MTGO for some reason), unless it comes down T2 against UR Delver it's not enough to bring you back into the game if you're already behind. If I end up running the 20 lands (which I'll get to in a second), I might end up running 2x Zuran Orb. Running 1x Jitte in the sideboard also proved to not really come down and become useful fast enough, as it's a wasted card unless you can stick a Goyf AND a Jitte AND get hits in. Not to mention we don't run SFM to tutor it. Still a WIP, but I'm liking this board right now:

3x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
3x Spell Pierce
1x Vendilion Clique
-2x Flex (Chill, Liliana, Duress, Zuran Orb)

As for the Hymn/Stifle/Thoughtseize debate, I can say I definitely DON'T like Thoughtseize here. Lifeloss in this meta can be a tough pill to swallow without reliable lifegain (like a Jitte or BSkull), and DRS isn't exactly that. Hymn is the card with more raw power, but Stifle is the one with more flexibility. Former RUG players will know the power of this card- Miracle triggers, Living Weapon triggers, Storm triggers, Jitte activations, Annihilator triggers, Craterhoof triggers...the list is endless. This card selection very much chooses the style of the deck as well- running Hymn encourages a more "tap-out" philosophy, efficiently using all your mana every turn to play things like Goyf and Hymn to put yourself ahead. Stifle encourages you to play more on your opponents turn, only tapping mana to play out a threat or Ponder while holding mana up for your reactionary cards. In this meta, I personally love the more RUG tempo style feel of the Stifle lists as it's a more versatile card and allows the deck to play a solid tempo game, even against UR Delver. As far as lands go, 20 lands is superb feeling, it's comfortable, it's safe...and probably just one too many. Even with Brainstorms to bury extra lands I've often found myself flooding out on 20 rather than 19. Running 19 can occasionally get you into some bad situations, but Stifle can protect your manabase against Wasteland and DRS is still the best planeswalker in Legacy, protect him and you won't have mana problems. Running the traditional 19 land setup (3 Trop, 3 Sea, 4 Waste, 9 Fetch) can also let you play some cute games...4 Scalding Tarn + 4 Flooded Strand + 1 Delta/Verdant/Misty still fetches all your duals, and can fake people into thinking you're on UR Delver, Miracles, Storm, etc.

[nditiz1]

I've been toying around with a couple of the lists suggested on here, just wanted to add my thoughts on here. Almost all of my testing is based on MTGO and that meta (heavy combo/UR Delver presence) so keep that in mind.

I've mainly been toying around with land count (19 or 20) and some of the flex spots (3 or 4 Cruise, Hymn/Thoughtseize/Stifle) as well as numbers in the sideboard. I've been running Chill in my list for awhile now, and even though it hoses Burn (and Goblins, which has been popping up more on MTGO for some reason), unless it comes down T2 against UR Delver it's not enough to bring you back into the game if you're already behind. If I end up running the 20 lands (which I'll get to in a second), I might end up running 2x Zuran Orb. Running 1x Jitte in the sideboard also proved to not really come down and become useful fast enough, as it's a wasted card unless you can stick a Goyf AND a Jitte AND get hits in. Not to mention we don't run SFM to tutor it. Still a WIP, but I'm liking this board right now:

3x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Null Rod
1x Pithing Needle
3x Spell Pierce
1x Vendilion Clique
-2x Flex (Chill, Liliana, Duress, Zuran Orb)

As for the Hymn/Stifle/Thoughtseize debate, I can say I definitely DON'T like Thoughtseize here. Lifeloss in this meta can be a tough pill to swallow without reliable lifegain (like a Jitte or BSkull), and DRS isn't exactly that. Hymn is the card with more raw power, but Stifle is the one with more flexibility. Former RUG players will know the power of this card- Miracle triggers, Living Weapon triggers, Storm triggers, Jitte activations, Annihilator triggers, Craterhoof triggers...the list is endless. This card selection very much chooses the style of the deck as well- running Hymn encourages a more "tap-out" philosophy, efficiently using all your mana every turn to play things like Goyf and Hymn to put yourself ahead. Stifle encourages you to play more on your opponents turn, only tapping mana to play out a threat or Ponder while holding mana up for your reactionary cards. In this meta, I personally love the more RUG tempo style feel of the Stifle lists as it's a more versatile card and allows the deck to play a solid tempo game, even against UR Delver. As far as lands go, 20 lands is superb feeling, it's comfortable, it's safe...and probably just one too many. Even with Brainstorms to bury extra lands I've often found myself flooding out on 20 rather than 19. Running 19 can occasionally get you into some bad situations, but Stifle can protect your manabase against Wasteland and DRS is still the best planeswalker in Legacy, protect him and you won't have mana problems. Running the traditional 19 land setup (3 Trop, 3 Sea, 4 Waste, 9 Fetch) can also let you play some cute games...4 Scalding Tarn + 4 Flooded Strand + 1 Delta/Verdant/Misty still fetches all your duals, and can fake people into thinking you're on UR Delver, Miracles, Storm, etc.


TheHeff - I am in the same debacle as you. First, I will say I enjoy Hymn more than anything in the world. It can punish players that like to gamble their hand or sometimes take away potential wins from others. With the rise of U/R, wasteland has lost some of it's luster, but I still think it is a necessity. I have not jumped onto the Stifle bus, but you make some great points about the versatility mid-late game. I never want to hold up one mana on turn 1 for mana denial. I am casting Delver everytime unless I don't have delver it goes to deathrite. If neither of the two I'm casting ponder, and lastly Brainstorm during their EOT. On turn 2 I want to be casting my 2 drops, Goyf, Bob (my list has 3, no cruise :p), Hymn. I like tapping out every turn and using Daze as it is designed to be used. Everyday I playtest against U/R Delver. I feel this deck has a better than 50% win against TA. Young Pyro is a huge pain and easily taken out with AD, but that leaves Delver to fly over with bolts. YP stops Goyf in his tracks and for good reason as Goyf can win the game since they cannot, in most cases, bolt him away. My current SB is close to yours:

3 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vendilion Cliques
2 Crafdiggers Cage
2 Spell pierce
1 flex (Was a K. Grip, but might become a second Charm)

[Borealis]

I got some testing in last night with Bob Huang's list from SCG Worcester (slightly different SB) and the list felt pretty good, but I was admittedly rusty and also didn't play against the strongest players or decks. Still, I was able to get a feel for the deck and jam a good set of games against a few archetypes, specifically Esper Deathblade with Cruises.

I definitely like Stifle, and will probably still end up playing that at the GP, but after discussing the deck with a friend he was pointing out how awkward it can be to:

A) Hold up mana early on when you are trying to fill your yard for Treasure Cruise
B) Get stuck with Stifle in your hand when your opponent goes "Treasure Cruise".
C) Not have Stifle in your GY when you want to Cruise on turn 3/4.

I realize that Stifle works wonders in a variety of other matchups, and that it synergizes well with Daze, so I am reluctant to cut them. But I'm going to test 3 Thoughtseize and another card, likely True-Name Nemesis, in the Stifle slot. It's possible the Nemesis of Tennessee should just be another counterspell like Dimir Charm or Spell Pierce to mitigate the lack of Stifle, but I also wanted the extra resilient threat, since I sorely missed my Lightning Bolts in a few spots already.

The reason for Thoughtseize is twofold for me: First, I found that despite my more aggressive mana-denial theme, my Esper opponent was often able to Seize my Cruise and then set his own up first, even while I aggressively Wastelanded and Stifled his mana. I also noticed that I was wasting my mana potential a LOT in the first few turns, having a DRS on the board but not being able to use his mana ability due to nothing to cast, and not using his pain/gain abilities due to lack of targets or my own Cruise considerations. Being able to TS someone else's Cruise or early threat gives us a lot of velocity, since we can pressure them with our threats while threatening to Cruise first, and we get to slow their hand down rather than their mana development. And while Stifle IS super flexible, so is Thoughtseize, and they are often both just as dead in the late game, depending on the matchup. Seize does more work against Combo decks, specifically Elves (a bad matchup Game 1, with a couple Stifle targets but nothing game-winning). It also does obvious work against the various other combo decks, namely Sneak/Show, Storm, Reanimator, and any prison decks as well that might pop up to fight this meta. Mostly, you can always cast TS turn one without fear of doing the wrong thing, and the information is very valuable in playing out the rest of your game.

The second reason is that I've been out of Legacy for awhile and having the crutch of Thoughtseize is a useful way for me to get more information about my opponents' decks while simultaneously closing the window on mistakes I could potentially make with the Stifle build. And my friend Keith, who is a practiced player, indicated that he liked Thoughtseize in testing recently. I don't think the 2 damage is all that relevant except for maybe against UR Delver and Burn, but even there you can take a threat or PoP or Blood Moon that would have otherwise stolen the game from you anyway.

So for this week and upcoming "Buncha Duals" tournament on Saturday in Attleboro, MA, I'll likely be running with this list:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
1 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

Other options I'd consider in the board include: Toxic Deluge, Null Rod, Hydroblast, Darkblast, Sylvan Library, another Disfigure, Maelstrom Pulse, Sultai Charm, and possibly Chill, though I've basically written that card off as too narrow. It's possibly I should condense the Elves/Death&Taxes/UR Delver hate into a more consistent package, but I like having options. Flusterstorm seems better than Spell Pierce right now with Cruise being everywhere, and Miracles and combo picking up speed. There aren't as many planeswalkers resolving these days and most artifacts are either too cheap or get vialed in, so I'm pushing for Flusterstorm here. Does basically the same in the mirror and against Burn as well, while again being less likely to get countered. I still need to test the "extra threats" out, specifically against Miracles, but my hunch is that Library is a bit slow and redundant when you have Cruise in the deck, while the Clique and Tarpit help fight their Sorcery removal and overload their pinpoint spells. Tarpit is especially great under a CounterTop lock when you can't find Decay. Clique is also relevant against any mirrors, as cycling a Cruise while beating down is pretty key, and nabbing an Equipment is as good as usual. But mostly he's the extra spell against combo.

My primary focus is on Delver decks, Blade decks, Miracles, Elves, and Combo. While I still think Stifle is great, I'm curious to see how Thoughtseize stacks up against the field as well right now. Keep in mind it's actually less likely to be a dead card going late now, as everyone will be drawing extra cards. Often a Cruise will dig you into mostly air, and a timely followup Thoughtseize can easily mitigate the damage from an opposing Cruise by protecting your one threat or keeping them from executing their plan for another turn. And hey, it if works for Ari.....

[Thorhammer]

Couple things....
I think Sylvan Library is unneccessary now with cruise. It doesn't have immediate impact, doesn't draw cards like cruise does, and more importantly, it isn't blue.

I also disagree with thought seize as UR delver will just smirk at you when you look at their hand of virtually identical commons and uncommons. You will write down their hand and they will draw three brand new cards that all do the exact same thing. Oh and you gave them 2 life to boot. Hymn to Tourach at least mitigates some of the damage done by cruise.

I feel like stifle vs discard comes down to player's choice and skill. I have never played a stifle deck so I might try it for a bit but my hunch is I will need some time to become a competent pilot of it. So it might be that we need to play whatever we are most comfortable with.

[phazonmutant]

Couple things....
I think Sylvan Library is unneccessary now with cruise. It doesn't have immediate impact, doesn't draw cards like cruise does, and more importantly, it isn't blue.

I also disagree with thought seize as UR delver will just smirk at you when you look at their hand of virtually identical commons and uncommons. You will write down their hand and they will draw three brand new cards that all do the exact same thing. Oh and you gave them 2 life to boot. Hymn to Tourach at least mitigates some of the damage done by cruise.

I feel like stifle vs discard comes down to player's choice and skill. I have never played a stifle deck so I might try it for a bit but my hunch is I will need some time to become a competent pilot of it. So it might be that we need to play whatever we are most comfortable with.

I disagree with your points about Sylvan Library. The Hymn / Cruise build is pretty much a midrange control deck, and card advantage and selection is king. It's pretty rare to lose a game where you're roughly even on board and you drop Sylvan Library, even more so if they're playing white and you do get to draw some extra cards. Sylvan Library was insane in the previous builds of Team America before Cruise, and nothing has changed there. I cut it for Cruise, but ended up re-adding it. Not being blue doesn't matter as much because Cruise bumps the blue count so much.

I'm onboard with your arguments against Thoughtseize and on Stifle v. Hymn though.

[Asthereal]

I disagree with your points about Sylvan Library. The Hymn / Cruise build is pretty much a midrange control deck, and card advantage and selection is king. It's pretty rare to lose a game where you're roughly even on board and you drop Sylvan Library, even more so if they're playing white and you do get to draw some extra cards. Sylvan Library was insane in the previous builds of Team America before Cruise, and nothing has changed there. I cut it for Cruise, but ended up re-adding it. Not being blue doesn't matter as much because Cruise bumps the blue count so much.

I'm onboard with your arguments against Thoughtseize and on Stifle v. Hymn though.
+1 to that on both remarks.

About Hymn vs. Stifle:
I actually don't play either of them right now. I lack the skill to play Stifle well, and I felt Hymn was too demanding on the mana base for the list I had in mind. And there's an abundance of cards we could play in those slots. I chose to run Disfigure and Spell Pierce. Very useful cards againt most of the decks that are currently popular.

[Thorhammer]

I disagree with your points about Sylvan Library. The Hymn / Cruise build is pretty much a midrange control deck, and card advantage and selection is king. It's pretty rare to lose a game where you're roughly even on board and you drop Sylvan Library, even more so if they're playing white and you do get to draw some extra cards. Sylvan Library was insane in the previous builds of Team America before Cruise, and nothing has changed there. I cut it for Cruise, but ended up re-adding it. Not being blue doesn't matter as much because Cruise bumps the blue count so much.

I'm onboard with your arguments against Thoughtseize and on Stifle v. Hymn though.

Do you like sylvan in the main or side then...???

[Borealis]

Couple things....
I think Sylvan Library is unneccessary now with cruise. It doesn't have immediate impact, doesn't draw cards like cruise does, and more importantly, it isn't blue.

You must have missed it, but I mentioned that too when I said: "but my hunch is that Library is a bit slow and redundant when you have Cruise in the deck, while the Clique and Tarpit help fight their Sorcery removal and overload their pinpoint spells."

I still like Sylvan Library, and may end up running it, but my problem with it is that you are primarily siding it in against Miracles and other grindy matchups (like perhaps the mirror). Against Miracles though, I think I'd just rather have more threats, since that's how you lose. You can dig for the existing threats or just side into better ones (while still having the virtue of Treasure Cruise finding them too). I just fear that, as good as Library is, it could be a better used SB slot for other matchups.



I also disagree with thought seize as UR delver will just smirk at you when you look at their hand of virtually identical commons and uncommons. You will write down their hand and they will draw three brand new cards that all do the exact same thing. Oh and you gave them 2 life to boot. Hymn to Tourach at least mitigates some of the damage done by cruise.

I feel like stifle vs discard comes down to player's choice and skill. I have never played a stifle deck so I might try it for a bit but my hunch is I will need some time to become a competent pilot of it. So it might be that we need to play whatever we are most comfortable with.

So on this front, I'll admit I'm unsure of how this will actually play out in practice, but that's why I'm testing Thoughtseize here. First of all though, while UR Delver is MOSTLY the same cards, they do have a few key cards that you will be glad to take, namely:

Delver
Pyro
Swiftspear
Cruise

Those are their threats. If you take out all their threats, they become a bad Burn deck. Thoughtseize can easily act as a removal spell for their best creature when you're light on removal, or just take their disruption or Treasure Cruise when you have all the answers and just need to out-attrition them. Seeing their hand is still going to be valuable in any situation, and in my opinion taking their Cruise is the biggest reason to have the Pinpoint discard spell in the first place. As I mentioned in my theorycrafting above, the first one to Cruise early will generally pull ahead in the Delver "mirrors", and Seize sets you up to take the lead here. Sure they might just run you over anyway, and sure the 2 damage will sometimes hurt you, but if they can't Ancestral Recall their chances of burning you out get much worse.

Postboard it's probably pretty likely that I will side out most or all of the Seizes against UR and Burn for efficient removal and sweepers, but it's far from a laughable card game 1. The whole reason I'm testing Thoughtseize over Hymn or Stifle is that it can strip Treasure Cruise before they ever resolve it. Sure they can draw it, we know this, but it still increases your chances of Out-Cruising them. (Aside: Stifle is similarly embarrassing when you are holding it up and they just go "nonfetchland, swiftspear/delver, go". Aside from their fetchlands, our only targets to stifle against them are Prowess and Pyro triggers. Not exactly hot tech. You might slow them down with a good Stifle/Waste hand against their fetch/dual hand, but they have enough basics and cantrips to not really give a shit going long, and you've then wasted cards fighting their mana base when all their spells cost 1. You've also enabled their Cruises for 1 mana. I tend to think Thoughtseize is actually a little better than Stifle here.)

Hymn does also technically mitigate the damage from Cruise, but in a much less reliable way. An early Hymn actually makes their Cruises cheaper (Same for Thoughtseize, but a little less so), and if you miss the Cruise they can easily recover. After they Cruise, I would tend agree that Hymn is probably better, but at that point it's likely too late for both discard spells, especially against the Red decks.

In short, Seize is still a scalpel that can extract their critical spell, while Hymn tries to play catchup against a more powerful spell. I'm not sure either is correct, but hence the testing.

I also like Seize in a lot of other places. It can disrupt Control and Combo equally well (again, nothing like setting up a protected turn 2 Goyf that's a 4/5 or better), and it can gain you information that Hymn cannot. I love Hymn, don't get me wrong, but I'm not entirely sure that now is the time for it. That being said, I will try and do diligence and test out Hymn as well before the GP next weekend just to be sure I know what I'm looking for. Stifle is still perhaps my favorite option, I just want to run the gamut of options before I hone in on my final build.

Bob Huang, if you're still reading, any opinions on these subjects?

[phazonmutant]

I still like Sylvan Library, and may end up running it, but my problem with it is that you are primarily siding it in against Miracles and other grindy matchups (like perhaps the mirror). Against Miracles though, I think I'd just rather have more threats, since that's how you lose. You can dig for the existing threats or just side into better ones (while still having the virtue of Treasure Cruise finding them too). I just fear that, as good as Library is, it could be a better used SB slot for other matchups.

That makes sense, and I definitely understand cutting it given that your expected meta seems to be much different than my take on it. My take on the meta is a bit different - I expect there's going to be a lot of Delver decks (30%?), and then some Stoneblade and Miracles decks, some combo decks, and some random other decks in roughly equal proportions. Library is great against Blade and Miracles, great against maybe half of the random decks (Junk, BUG Control, D&T, etc), good against about a third of the Delver decks (BUG and UWR), and good against combo. Seems worth having main.

You make some good arguments for Thoughtseize. It's hard to say it's a bad card. If you're testing is going well with it, then go for it, although I've come to different results. For me Thoughtseize just hasn't done enough - hitting one key spell generally isn't enough (unless they're combo).

I definitely agree with the argument against Stifle.

[Grand Superior]

I agree with Borealis's opinion on Thoughtseize. I made top 8 of a local 40-man tourney with the Team America (stock 55 + 1 Liliana/4 Thoughtseize) and Thoughtseize was incredible all day. It allowed me to steal matches from Mono-R Sneak Attack (Thoughtseizing Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon), Death and Taxes (Thoughtseizing Mirran Crusader and Sword of Feast and Famine), and Deathblade/the Mirror by Thoughtseizing their own Treasure Cruises and letting me resolve mine first. Thoughtseize does seem anemic against UR Delver but like Borealis said, Thoughtseize swaps out nicely for Disfigures and Golgari Charms postboard.

I can understand the idea that Thoughtseize can seem very low impact when compared to what the rest of the deck is doing, but early Thoughtseizes still have the power to decide games and can often be your only answer to problematic cards. I definitely like Thoughtseize more than Hymn to Tourach in a Treasure Cruise world and certainly more than Stifle.

[Borealis]

How did Liliana perform for you Grand Superior? She still strikes me as strong, but I'm not sure I want to maindeck her in a meta with lots of Young Pyros and Treasure Cruises across the table. She still seems good against combo, but my thought is that a resilient threat like True-Name is better when your opponents can easily draw more cards for cheaper thanks to Lily's +1 or even -2. And as a SB card I tend to like Flusterstorm or V. Clique a little bit more, as Lily only really hoses Storm decks. The other combo players can generally ignore her and force through the Show and Tell or Natural Order I would think.

I'll consider running the 4th Thoughtseize though. I still like Dimir Charm, but lowering the curve is a consideration too.

I'm also going to test a 1-of Dig through Time in place of a Cruise. Not sure it's correct, but I tend to think it's going to be pretty powerful especially post-board, and I've always liked a little spice in my lists. People won't expect the Dig end of turn in the mirror, and it seems much better against combo or control where you need specific answers. It also lets you hold up countermagic postboard.

[YamiJoey]

I actually wanted to mention this. Dig Through Time is obviously the stronger card, but also costs twice a much mana. We are effectively a low-curved, aggressive midrange deck. We generate mana incredibly quickly, and have various cards that are bad at various points. I think it is well worth considering 3 Digs over any Cruises here. I've cast it in various decks in various formats, and I have yet to be disappointed with it.

[ESG]

I actually wanted to mention this. Dig Through Time is obviously the stronger card, but also costs twice a much mana. We are effectively a low-curved, aggressive midrange deck. We generate mana incredibly quickly, and have various cards that are bad at various points. I think it is well worth considering 3 Digs over any Cruises here. I've cast it in various decks in various formats, and I have yet to be disappointed with it.

I feel like this should be called "The Jace Fallacy" or something. It's not just the extra mana; it's the fact that both of those have to be blue mana. It's just like Jace all over again, except at least Dig is a spell so there isn't inherent conflict with Delver. Just because one card is slightly stronger than another in a vacuum doesn't mean that card is suddenly better in a particular deck. If you're cutting most of the black out of the deck or shifting to a control list, then Dig might work. Otherwise, I foresee Dig sitting in hand after DRS gets killed and Wasteland has hit once, or getting hit with Daze because you don't have time to play around it.

[Asthereal]

I feel like this should be called "The Jace Fallacy" or something. It's not just the extra mana; it's the fact that both of those have to be blue mana. It's just like Jace all over again, except at least Dig is a spell so there isn't inherent conflict with Delver. Just because one card is slightly stronger than another in a vacuum doesn't mean that card is suddenly better in a particular deck. If you're cutting most of the black out of the deck or shifting to a control list, then Dig might work. Otherwise, I foresee Dig sitting in hand after DRS gets killed and Wasteland has hit once, or getting hit with Daze because you don't have time to play around it.
I cut all double black spells, and with them the Bayous, so for me this is a serious option. Last tourney I played Cruises because my Dig Through Times haven't arrived yet, but when they do I will give them a spin. I am concerned about the extra mana it costs though, since I have lowered my curve on purpose, and don't like to make it higher again, but the higher power level sure is appealing.

[YamiJoey]

Yeah, my current list is on a single Bayou, with a single Liliana in the board as my BB. I have had room to test Counterspell, and people have beenhaving success with True-Name Nemesis. I'm not sure it's a problem.

[FoolofaTook]

Dig Through Time is really good in a list that is running a heavily blue mana base that will keep 2 blue sources on the board through almost anything. Treasure Cruise is better if you're running a Bayou or two to power Liliana, Hymns and for synergy with Deathrite Shaman.

Being able to tap out for DTT at EoT is a big deal. If your mana base doesn't reliably support it then it's not worth it. Stifle builds definitely should consider DTT because they can protect the mana base in a way that the other builds can't. You can look at a huge number of cards from one turn to the next if you are running both DTT and TC in some mix.

[Will_L]

Someone give me/lurkers the Cole's Notes pls

In a few words... Pls tell me the contrasts and advantages/disadvantages between blue based tempo focused BUG (Stifle, Spell Pierce) VS. tap out BUG (Hymn, Liliana)

I have access to both and want to better understand the difference between the two configurations

Thanks guys

[Asthereal]

Someone give me/lurkers the Cole's Notes pls

In a few words... Pls tell me the contrasts and advantages/disadvantages between blue based tempo focused BUG (Stifle, Spell Pierce) VS. tap out BUG (Hymn, Liliana)

I have access to both and want to better understand the difference between the two configurations

Thanks guys
Tempo / Dark Thresh style:
1. Reactive playing style
2. Better mana base and curve (no BB costs, no need for Bayou, cheaper cards over all)
3. Better internal card synergy (7-8 mana denial + 6-7 taxing counters, more blue for FoW)

Team America tap-out style:
1. Proactive playing style
2. Higher power level cards (Hymn, Lily)
3. Slightly easier to play in general (play Hymns, play dudes, kill him = valid strategy)

Something like that. :cool:

[nossirag]

If we already run 4 stifle why not phyrexian dreadnought?

[Asthereal]

If we already run 4 stifle why not phyrexian dreadnought?
Hard to protect against the removal package people run these days (StP, Decay, Terminus, artifact hate, counter the Stifle).
There aren't many popular decks right now that have problems dealing with the 12/12, so it's often just card disadvantage.

[Borealis]

Tested this list at a 90+ person event this past Saturday:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time

Sideboard
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

Basically the list I posted earlier, with a few minor tweaks. My friends convinced me to play True-Name Nemesis as a 2-of, which I liked but wasn't amazing for me. (I think I resolved it twice, once it probably won me the game, the other time it was promptly Supreme Verdicted next to a Goyf. Ouch.) We cut Dimir Charm for being too cute and expensive, and I played the 1-of Dig for testing purposes even though I knew it was probably wrong. I never resolved Dig: I was either too far ahead, too choked on mana, or had to pitch it to Force. My experience tells me that Treasure Cruise is just better in this deck, and despite still having a desire for the more powerful effect going long, I can't justify it.

During the tournament I lost the first round to 12 post, beat UR Delver twice in a row (once due to my opponent's bad draws and slight misplays, the second opponent took a game loss for deck reg error and then I ran him over), beat oldschool RUG Delver (Goose not Cruise), and then lost a very close match to Esper Stoneblade (the aforementioned Verdict crushed me game 3).

I then was faced with Enchantress and had to win to stay in the prize money. Game 1 went as expected, he drew his whole deck and finally found the Helm of Obedience as his 2nd to last card to mill me out via the RIP combo. Game 2 I tempoed him out, countered everything relevant, ignoring his Pithing Needle on DRS until killing it pumped my two Goyfs for the win. In Game 3, I got on the board fast with 2 Delver of Secrets. I decay his Oppressive Rays on one of them, and Golgari Charm a Journey to Nowhere on the other, getting back the Human 1/1 to compliment my Insectile 3/2. I get him down to 3 life, and make a huge mistake: I Brainstorm and see Goyf, Delver, FoW. I PUT BACK the Force of Will and keep the Delver, thinking I will have 3 flipped Delvers on the next turn in case he kills my only remaining active one. He then proceeds to play Helm, and I'm dead. Clearly I needed to keep the FOW there (I had a Ponder in hand) and I could then counter any one spell that stops me from killing him next turn. After that, I was 3-3, and dropped from the last round, a bit burned by my mistake and very tired of being in the Stifling hot room for so long. It wasn't the best-run tournament ever, and the ventilation in there is horrible.

In any case, I learned a lot. Thoughtseize was great for me all day, and those are staying in the list for the GP. The one opponent who tried to Stifle me (RUG Delver with Goose) still lost that game due to me having more lands in hand, and it made me realize that Stifle sometimes just doesn't work out. Thoughtseize was almost always relevant though, and I didn't even play against True Combo or Control, depending on how you classify 12post. Against that deck, Seize was very good, but he managed to topdeck well and I didn't have great disruption either game.

My Delver matchups weren't the best sample size, but they gave me courage that this deck is the best for the mirror matchups. Obviously RUG playing Goose was a little dated, but she still played well and we had interactive games. It's just hard for them to deal with a Goyf and I have all the Abrupt Decays for theirs, so Goose is the only way they can hope to get through. The UR lists were a little scary, but I still feel that with enough removal in your opener and careful timing, you can nullify their offense and then take over with Goyfs and Shamans. Abrupt Decay is basically just a huge card against any Delver deck, and makes me very glad to be playing this version. I'm sure it's still easy to get ran over by a good UR Delver pilot, but we have the tools to defeat them.

Stoneblade is as grindy as ever, and aside from a few minor mistakes there wasn't much I could do to win that particular match. My testing against it last week proved that I can defeat them just as easily, but the match is obviously very close to 50/50. I think in this particular case I got out-Cruised, which will obviously be a common story in the upcoming Legacy season.

12post I expected at this particular store, and the two pilots playing it aren't the most fun opponents ever from what I hear, but it's not a matchup I would normally concern myself with. Ditto for Enchantress, and I should have had that match locked up. I still need to test against Miracles and some Combo decks pretty badly, but I feel my deck is pretty close to tuned. The only changes I will make for next week at this point are:

-1 Daze
-1 Dig Through Time
-1 Bayou

+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Treasure Cruise
+1 Tropical Island

Sideboard might gain a Toxic Deluge and a Flusterstorm in place of the 2nd pierce and something else. Not sure what to cut for Deluge, as I actually was pretty happy with Liliana in a couple places, but perhaps it's unnecessary. Bayou was a huge problem for me, as a I drew it in several openers and suffered for not having blue mana on several turns, but I also didn't play against too many Wastelands. With Thoughtseize and the single Liliana, it's hard to cut the Bayou but at the same time I should be able to find enough black sources when the time comes, and it's much less important than not being able to cast my cantrips and blue spells. Seize can always wait a couple turns, and Lily is primarily for Control and Combo, so I feel okay with this decision. But maybe it was bad beats and the Bayou is actually okay most of the time. We'll see.

[iostream]

I've been testing Dig, and it's been a mixed bag. My take on the two Delve spells after jamming loads of games are as follows:

Treasure Cruise:

advantages:

can be cast for U, so you're way more likely to cast the things you draw the turn that you draw them
more raw card advantage than Dig

disadvantages:

you cruise into garbage surprisingly often since by the time you can cruise, all your lands, dazes, wastes, etc. are not relevant anymore. you also can't end the game that quickly since everyone playing cruise tends to make games go longer than before.
has fundamental tension with the BUG game plan. you run reactive spells in the slots that UR would run Probes and Bolts. You can't just fire off the things you draw as easily as UR can. That is, you can't use the card advantage that you gain as easily. Card quality matters more to us

Dig Through Time:

advantages:

gets you exactly what you need - no risk of delving into garbage
being an instant opens many tactical options. dig on opponent's EOT into casting stuff on your turn with full mana available is strong. digging on opponent's upkeep can also be good because they have to fight over it and spend their mana on /their/ turn.
immune to Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief, and other random nonsense.

disadvantages

your cards are largely redundant. you have few/no awesome one-ofs in the maindeck, so there's usually nothing specific you really need. If you need to kill that delver, it doesn't matter if it's decay or disfigure or whatever.
when you dig in desperation (i.e. in response to the combo player going for it), costing UU often makes it so that you can't even cast what it is that you draw. that is, it makes you want to run very mana efficient spells, but those spells are usually not the high-impact answers that you really want when you're about to lose.

I don't think one is objectively stronger than the other. But I think the strongest way to build BUG Delver is such that you can make good use of both Dig and Cruise. What I think is strongest is as follows:

Run fewer Dazes and Wastelands to improve the overall quality of your Delve spells. They're worse now anyway since almost all the top decks a) run some basics and b) either run a ton of lands or very few expensive spells, which makes the Force Spike effect very weak very quickly. You can't cut too many of these since then your only free interaction is Force of Will, and that's really not acceptable because you don't have enough lands to cast multiple pieces of disruption in one turn, but believe me, I tried.
Run more spells that are good when you are the control, since that happens more often now. Once could try to integrate harder countermagic like Spell Pierce and actual Counterspell. Definitely run the full set of Abrupt Decay if you haven't already, and think about running a sweeper or two somewhere. Maybe even run an extra land so that you can make better use of the things you draw.
Run some kind of Dig/TC split so you can access the benefits of both. If you build your deck like I've said so that you have more strong cards to Dig for, then Dig gets better. If you don't raise the curve of the deck too much and keep late game air to a minimum, TC gets better. Another thing is that BUG generally becomes full of killer one-ofs post board, and you frequently want to side out a couple Delve spells versus the Delve hate. Both of these facts suggest that cutting your Cruises but keeping your Digs could be a really strong plan in many situations.

I think there is some way to do this so that you get to "have your cake and eat it too" - you are able to play a powerful control game when you need to (i.e. all the mirrors), but you also have the tempo-oriented Delver nut draws and high amount of pressure that is unique to this class of decks.

[btm10]

I took 9th at SCG Columbus yesterday, missing top 8 on breakers. I ran this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76028):

Creatures (12)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets

Draw/Manipulation (11)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

Disruption (18)

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dimir Charm

Land (19)

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)

2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library

I'll post a lengthier report and discussion of the deckbuilding choices later, but the Cliff's notes are:

1. Dimir Charm continues to overperform. I think 2 is the right number because it is conditional, but I'm never unhappy to draw it. I strongly disagree with those who think even 1 is too cute.

2. I think the velocity of Hymn is too low. It definitely sealed the deal on one game, but in the situation I was in Thoughtseize would've had the same effect. Hymn turned the last piece of a pretty decisive game win (stripping the Batterskull from a Blade opponent when I had 2 Goyfs out) into a blowout (hitting their 4th land, allowing me to Wasteland them off of casting the rest of the spells in their hand).

3. I think that 3 Cruise is correct. It's still clunky early, and I definitely pitched it to Force a few times because casting it wasn't realistic, or kept a 7 in spite of having a Cruise in the opener.

4. Liliana still closes out games like a champ. Even without supporting discard she created both real and virtual card advantage at several points.

5. Clique and Tar Pit in the board is probably too much clunky midrange for the current meta. I boarded both in at different points, but often felt like having both was too much. I'll probably change one to a Grip, Zur's Weirding, or Maelstrom Pulse. Trygon Predator was awesome.

That's all for now, I'll expand on these points later.

[FoolofaTook]

Hard to protect against the removal package people run these days (StP, Decay, Terminus, artifact hate, counter the Stifle).
There aren't many popular decks right now that have problems dealing with the 12/12, so it's often just card disadvantage.

I think if you want to try to run Phyrexian Dreadnought then you almost have to run Thoughtseize as well. In this shell running Thoughtseize, Stifle and dreadnought would be bad. That's too many conditional cards before you get to the counters which are often conditional as well.

[Demonic_Attorney]

I took 9th at SCG Columbus yesterday, missing top 8 on breakers. I ran this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76028):

1. Dimir Charm continues to overperform. I think 2 is the right number because it is conditional, but I'm never unhappy to draw it. I strongly disagree with those who think even 1 is too cute.

One (1) is far too cute and although it is not a bad card per say, there are so many more better and more viable options for this deck. The flex spots are extremely tight right now whether you play Hym/ Liliana or Stifle/ Pierce, etc., and when ever I draw it, I wish it were something else and better!

[FoolofaTook]

One (1) is far too cute and although it is not a bad card per say, there are so many more better and more viable options for this deck. The flex spots are extremely tight right now whether you play Hym/ Liliana or Stifle/ Pierce, etc., and when ever I draw it, I wish it were something else and better!

Dimir Charm kills Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Goblin Guide, Eidolon of Eternal Revels, Young Pyromancer (Golgari Charm is better here but still), Meddling Mage set to Abrupt Decay, Thalia, Grim Lavamancer, Phyrexian Revoker, Snapcaster Mage, Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger. That's 13 of the 20 most played creatures in Legacy right now. It counters the kill spells in the format, which are all Sorcery at this point except for Jace, the Mind Sculptor, red damage instants, Blood Moon, Sneak Attack and Ad Nauseum. It is one of the few effects in the format that can halt a Miracle in mid-stream by putting it in the graveyard in response to a top activation to draw.

I think 1 is a no-brainer in BUG at this point and I definitely understand people who want 2.

[btm10]

Dimir Charm kills Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Goblin Guide, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Young Pyromancer (Golgari Charm is better here but still), Meddling Mage set to Abrupt Decay, Thalia, Grim Lavamancer, Phyrexian Revoker, Snapcaster Mage, Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger. That's 13 of the 20 most played creatures in Legacy right now. It counters the kill spells in the format, which are all Sorcery at this point except for Jace, the Mind Sculptor, red damage instants, Blood Moon, Sneak Attack and Ad Nauseum. It is one of the few effects in the format that can halt a Miracle in mid-stream by putting it in the graveyard in response to a top activation to draw.

I think 1 is a no-brainer in BUG at this point and I definitely understand people who want 2.

You can also just counter both Terminus and Entreat with the "Counter target Sorcery spell" mode. You do have the option of using it on Miracles' turn after they draw to take floated Miracles without them being able to Miracle them, though.


One (1) is far too cute and although it is not a bad card per say, there are so many more better and more viable options for this deck. The flex spots are extremely tight right now whether you play Hymn/ Liliana or Stifle/ Pierce, etc., and when ever I draw it, I wish it were something else and better!

In addition to what FoolofaTook said, Charm also kills every D&T creature except Brimaz, Flickerwisp, and Mirran Crusader, every creature in Infect, and every non-finisher creature in Elves. In the case of Elves' finishers, it counters GSZ and NO, so it's very good there. It's also worth pointing out that because it kills manlands, it's a maindeckable, instant speed Stone Rain against things like Inkmoth Nexus, Mishra's Factory, and Dryad Arbor. Add in the times where you can fire it off to hit cards that were hidden from discard with Brainstorm, or to set up your Delver and/or fix your draw on your opponent's endstep, or ruin your opponent's draw for a turn, and it's an incredibly flexible card that's well worth a slot. The only times I wish it were something different are when I'm staring down a Goyf, but I'm not cutting cards that kill Goyf for it.

[Will_L]

Hope I don't shit up this thread too much with my off the cuff suggestions/questions... I don't play enough to have really valuable or insightful input in terms of in depth discussion... I do have a question for you guys though...

I'm playing a Stifle/Spell Pierce/3 TC list with 12 creatures... What do you all think of Standstill as a one of?

I feel like every time I draw it in opening hand with a Delver/DRS I am super well positioned to take over...

[FoolofaTook]

You can also just counter both Terminus and Entreat with the "Counter target Sorcery spell" mode. You do have the option of using it on Miracles' turn after they draw to take floated Miracles without them being able to Miracle them, though.

I like it better against Miracles in the chuck two cards in the graveyard mode. It's not unusual for a Miracles player to be floating two Terminus or a Terminus and an Entreat by the late-game. It's really nice to watch them panic Brainstorm and put those cards in their hand. #1 they blow a Brainstorm on defense. #2 the cards they put in their hand are dead weight until they draw another Brainstorm.

[Archangelst]

This deck just isn't what it use to be. I've played it exclusively for more than a year and always felt great about it, but it's so much worse in the current meta. Discard being far less effective, the interaction between Cruise/Dig with Shaman/Tarmo, main deck Pyro/Red blasts everywhere, etc. That, and I am tired of being Blood Mooned out of games.

It was a good run, but there are far better options right now.

[Asthereal]

I've been testing Dig, and it's been a mixed bag. My take on the two Delve spells after jamming loads of games are as follows:
(a list of advantages and disadvantages of Cruise vs. Dig.)
I miss one serious advantage of Cruise over Dig:
The fact that it's cheaper to cast helps casting it through taxing counters.
This is big, since if they have to Force it, we still gain +1 card advantage.



This deck just isn't what it use to be. I've played it exclusively for more than a year and always felt great about it, but it's so much worse in the current meta. Discard being far less effective, the interaction between Cruise/Dig with Shaman/Tarmo, main deck Pyro/Red blasts everywhere, etc. That, and I am tired of being Blood Mooned out of games.

It was a good run, but there are far better options right now.
I disagree for now. I have been toying with the new toys (:laugh:) and I feel there are still many great lists to play. I am not yet sure of the best one, but I like mine, and after six months of no competitive play at all I piloted it to a 4-2 result against pretty strong opposition (only serious decks and most players were quite good). I think this deck is still one of the top contenders, especially since it has a (very) good game against the new UR Pyro Delver thing. Darkblast! Oh yeah! :cool:

[Manipulato]

I think Dimir Charm is absolutley maindeckable. I for myself play 2 copies of it MD and after 7 games against Omnitell & 7 games against Grixis Delver I`m very lucky with the card. Lili would have been bad in a lot of situations, because I had only 2 mana against Grixis or I would not been able to pitch her to FoW against Onmitell. The Charm is so flexible and never really dead and really strong against Elves, Miracles. But that was said above...

The only thing I´m unsure at the moment is the debate TS vs Hymn MD...
I tried 3 Hymn with 2 Tropicals & 1 Bayou and now I´m trying 3-4 TS instead, then we will see which I like more...Hymn felt not bad at all in those games and has still some blowout potential, but sometimes it was a bit cluncy especially in this new Cruise/Delver meta. Catching the opponent`s TC, NO, Jace, Batterskull or whatever is very strong in my opinion...

I`m trying a Umezawa`s Jitte & Darkblast in the SB as a 1off. I think Jitte is really good against Elves, DnT, UR Delver, Burn. It`s just king in creature battles, especially if our opponent has Pyromancer or Mother etc. on board. I`m also boarding in 2 TNN in those MU`s so that the Jitte can go online safe.
Jitte is another way to handle opposing Mirran Crusader, which are very tough to beat for us. I think Darkblast is also great against DnT & Elves whicha are quite hard MU´s...

This is my current list which I´m testing...


12 creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets

28 Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dimir Charm

19 lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard: 15 Karten
3 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grafdigger`s Cage
1 Umezawa`s Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle[/QUOTE]

[Borealis]

RE: Dimir Charm

Just to clarify, when I mentioned that "we" decided Dimir Charm was too cute, it was actually my friend who suggested that, and I who simply agreed that it might be worth cutting it for something else. At the time I was trying to fit the 2nd True-Name Nemesis in the deck, and basically had nothing else I wanted to cut, so it was an easy choice.

I still like Dimir Charm. It is very flexible, and reasonably strong in the meta right now. It's probably at it's best against Miracles, Stoneblade, and opposing Delver decks, but it starts to lose excitement outside those matches. It's still relevant against most combo decks trying to win with a sorcery, but it gets awkward when you have to hold up a conditional counterspell past turn 2 hoping to get value.

The problems I have with Dimir Charm are:

1) It's a redundant Abrupt Decay in most situations where you want the removal spell, and Decay is obviously leagues better. Manlands get under Decay, yes, but we still have Wasteland.
2) It's very difficult to hold up 2 mana waiting for a sorcery, even against Miracles, but especially in the mirrors. Cruise will sneak through while you are tapped out more often than not in my experience. Holding up 2 mana is much harder than just 1 mana for something like Spell Pierce or Disfigure.

Killing relevant creatures is great, but again Decay does this more reliably, and we still aren't exciting about paying 2 mana to take out a 1-2 mana threat. Countering sorceries is great, but Charm doesn't hit other relevant problems like Balance/top, Pyroblast, Jace, Batterskull, etc. The third mode is generally not going to be worthwhile 99% of the time. I can maybe see a couple cases where it's a passable play against Miracles, though I still think you just save it for their Sorceries.

Basically, I like the flexibility of Dimir Charm, but I personally am going to simply run a Spell Pierce in its place. It doesn't kill creatures, but it protects our own threats earlier in the game and still does a fine job of stopping most problems in a relevant timeframe, while being better against Delver and Blade decks. Being able to hold up Pierce while casting Seize, Shaman, or Delver is a big deal. That said, I wouldn't fault anyone for playing Dimir Charm, but I do think you need to consider your curve and what kind of game you want to play.

[btm10]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Dimir Charm, as we see the same things and are evaluating those things differently. I had tested MD Disfigure and additional discard/countermagic in those slots and felt like the removal was dead against combo and control, but that I really wanted the extra kill spells against other Delver decks and creature decks in general. Similarly, having access to the additional disruption against combo and control is valuable even if it's conditional. The main draw to Charm for me is that while sometimes it's not the best answer, it's almost always a sufficient answer and isn't ever dead.

To go into a little more detail about SCG, I went 7-1-1 overall, beating Dredge (round 1, 2-1), Junk Depths (round 2, 2-0), the mirror twice (round 3 and round 8, 2-1, 2-1), UW Delverblade (really strange list, round 6, 2-1), Nether Void/Chains of Mephistopheles Pox (round 7?!, 2-1), and UR Delver (round 9, 2-1), drew with Elves (round 4), and lost 1-2 to Jund Aggro Loam (1-2) in round 5. The draw was probably avoidable had I played the matchup at all recently.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Hey btm10, could you post your list, congrats on your sucess.

[Will_L]

Check out post #1062, that was the list he played.

[Borealis]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Dimir Charm, as we see the same things and are evaluating those things differently. I had tested MD Disfigure and additional discard/countermagic in those slots and felt like the removal was dead against combo and control, but that I really wanted the extra kill spells against other Delver decks and creature decks in general. Similarly, having access to the additional disruption against combo and control is valuable even if it's conditional. The main draw to Charm for me is that while sometimes it's not the best answer, it's almost always a sufficient answer and isn't ever dead.

To go into a little more detail about SCG, I went 7-1-1 overall, beating Dredge (round 1, 2-1), Junk Depths (round 2, 2-0), the mirror twice (round 3 and round 8, 2-1, 2-1), UW Delverblade (really strange list, round 6, 2-1), Nether Void/Chains of Mephistopheles Pox (round 7?!, 2-1), and UR Delver (round 9, 2-1), drew with Elves (round 4), and lost 1-2 to Jund Aggro Loam (1-2) in round 5. The draw was probably avoidable had I played the matchup at all recently.

Fair enough on the Dimir Charm debate. But again, it's not that I don't like it, I'm just wary of raising my spell curve too much, and I feel like Spell Pierce is also a welcome addition to the maindeck. I also think Dimir Charm works better with the Stifle plan, but I'm currently running the Thoughtseize plan, so there's some dissynergy there for me. I also still have to decide if I'm playing True-Name Nemesis or not, since those are actually what is taking up the Dimir Charm slot currently. They are both reasonably good against UR Delver and Miracles, so it's a toss-up. Maybe I'll cut one Nemesis for another spell.

In any case, congrats on your placement. 9th is a rough place to fall with breakers, but it's still a very strong finish. I'll be happy to Day 2 this coming weekend.

Can you elaborate on your matchup against Elves, and possibly give us a quick Sideboard reference that you followed for your tournament? I'm aware that Sideboarding is always fluid, but I like having other people's input to help influence my own ideas, as I'm not very practiced with the deck right now and Sideboarding can easily make or break your day. Thanks!

[Thorhammer]

Nice work bt. Your list was a card off from what I am currently on. I'm curious about your hymn to turach conclusions. Got any ideas for a replacement?

[btm10]

Fair enough on the Dimir Charm debate. But again, it's not that I don't like it, I'm just wary of raising my spell curve too much, and I feel like Spell Pierce is also a welcome addition to the maindeck. I also think Dimir Charm works better with the Stifle plan, but I'm currently running the Thoughtseize plan, so there's some dissynergy there for me. I also still have to decide if I'm playing True-Name Nemesis or not, since those are actually what is taking up the Dimir Charm slot currently. They are both reasonably good against UR Delver and Miracles, so it's a toss-up. Maybe I'll cut one Nemesis for another spell.

In any case, congrats on your placement. 9th is a rough place to fall with breakers, but it's still a very strong finish. I'll be happy to Day 2 this coming weekend.

Can you elaborate on your matchup against Elves, and possibly give us a quick Sideboard reference that you followed for your tournament? I'm aware that Sideboarding is always fluid, but I like having other people's input to help influence my own ideas, as I'm not very practiced with the deck right now and Sideboarding can easily make or break your day. Thanks!

Thanks to you too. The Elves match in particular was really rough - I didn't get to sleep much the night before so I was pretty tired all day, and rounds 4 and 5 were when I also got hungry and hadn't remembered to bring food. As a result, I remember having a hard time focusing enough to navigate combat or find even obvious lines in both matches. In the unlikely event that my Elves opponent reads this, I'm sorry.

In general, I boarded as follows:

Against Dredge:
-1 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Hymn to Tourach
-2 Treasure Cruise
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Disfigure

There's not really much to say about this one. You take out the cards that interact poorly or are too slow and substitute cards that interact favorably. The Disfigure was just to give myself an additional way to exile Bridges should it come to that.

Against Loam/Depths Decks:

-4 Daze
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
+1 Pithing Needle

Needle is the only way to directly stop the combo, and Surgical deals with Loam. Clique and Tar Pit are additional threats in a match you want to end quickly, and CTP also provides some resistance to Wasteland and Devastating Dreams in case a game goes long.

Against the Mirror:

On the play:
-4 Force of Will
-1 Daze
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Disfigure

On the Draw:
-4 Daze
-1 Force of Will
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Disfigure

I also swapped a Wasteland for a Tar Pit in game 2 of round 3 when I knew I would be on the draw. Sometimes I don't cut Forces. Sometimes I board in a 61st card, which is usually an uncompensated Clique. I frequently cut Daze on the play. I've run this plan a few other times and it's been quite successful. The mirror has always felt like a midrange or control mirror in that we're both bringing in plenty of answers, and it's more important to have the major card advantage engines and to be the last one to stick a threat than it is to be the one with the fast start. There are absolutely hands you can keep that facilitate a speedier approach and I'd definitely take those opportunities, but you can't bank on them presenting themselves, especially if your opponent is also becoming more controlling postboard. I take a similar approach against RUG and UWR, but bring in Predator and Golgari Charm against UWR over most non-Dimir Charm countermagic against UWR, while retaining a counter against RUG over the Predator.

Against Elves
-4 Daze
-2 Treasure Cruise
+2 Disfigure
+2 Golgari Charm
+2 Grafdigger's Cage

Stopping NO and GSZ are very important here, and Dimir Charm counters both while not being dead against the rest of their deck. This is not a matchup I've got lots of experience playing, so any other feedback is appreciated. My opponent boarded in 2 Jittes against me, which came as a surprise and made game 2 run longer than it should've.


Against Blade decks:

These decks are highly variable, so it's hard to give simple advice. Hymn and Daze are both marginal here since they have Cruise and games tend to go long. If I see lots of basics, I'll drop a Wasteland for Creeping Tar Pit because it's resistant to Supreme Verdict and is great in a race. The rest of my plan turns on how they played against me and how long I expect games to go. If they tried to be the control deck in game 1, I'll drop Daze even on the play and bring in Pierces no matter what. Sylvan Library almost always comes in, as do Clique, Predator, and Null Rod. These decks always run TNN, so at least one Golgari Charm is also necessary, although Liliana handles it well.

Against Deathblade, all of that goes out the window. Leave in Hymn and all of your Wastelands to punish their godawful manabase. At least one Dimir Charm also stays in because they have more targets than a standard Blade deck and killing DRS plays into your mana denial plan, so you only get the Daze slots and 1 or 2 Force slots to play with. If you're only dropping Daze (which I recommend), it's +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Trygon Predator, +1 Clique.

Against UR Delver:

Drop Hymn, Liliana, and some countermagic for Pierce, Golgari Charm, and Disfigure. Kill everything they play, and I like cutting 2 additional Dazes for Pierces to stop burn and cantrips.


Against Miracles:

Drop at least one additional Wasteland for Pithing Needle on top of what you drop for Blade, and then board the same way. Never cut more than one Force of Will, but Daze is garbage almost all of the time. Hymn is pretty bad too, but Liliana can force them to play the game on your terms, especially once you're Cruising or have an active Sylvan Library. The only cards you should fight over are Entreat, Jace, and your Sylvan Library, because Entreat and Jace are the only cards that can actually kill you, and Sylvan basically wins the game on its own because they don't pressure your life total most of the time. If you expect a lot of Miracles in your local meta, you should find room for a Zur's Weirding in the board because Miracles literally cannot beat a resolved Weirding if you have a threat. They'll never successfully draw a miracle spell that you care about, you can keep them off of removal if you need to, and you pay 2 life to kill every Jace they draw. Other than that, it doesn't matter what they do.


Nice work bt. Your list was a card off from what I am currently on. I'm curious about your hymn to turach conclusions. Got any ideas for a replacement?

Thanks! I spent a lot of turns wanting to cast Hymn but not having the mana to do that and cast another spell. A lot of people have written about how Cruise undoes Hymn, but I never really felt like an opposing Cruise took me out of the game even when I didn't cast Hymn. Against UR their deck is so redundant and capable of reloading so quickly that discard isn't great against them in general, and that holds for most other Delver variants. I'm torn between Stifle and Thoughtseize for those slots, but I don't know which way I'll go yet.

[iostream]

btm10: Would you mind elaborating a bit on how Trygon Predator performed? It just seems like all the Stoneforge Mystic decks have plenty of removal to stop it from connecting - would Krosan Grip or Maelstrom Pulse be better?

[btm10]

btm10: Would you mind elaborating a bit on how Trygon Predator performed? It just seems like all the Stoneforge Mystic decks have plenty of removal to stop it from connecting - would Krosan Grip or Maelstrom Pulse be better?

Grip and Pulse are definitely easier to use, but they're single shot. I ran Predator with the expectation that I'd run into more SFM decks that I did. If you think you'll only see one Stoneforge deck and maybe one Miracles opponent over an event, I'd definitely rather have a less fragile piece of one-shot artifact/enchantment removal.

However, against the Blade decks, UWR Delver, and Miracles I expected to see, Predator represents such a huge threat that they're usually willing to commit significant resources to seeing it gone which benefits you in two ways: first, it saves your creatures from their removal because they have to prioritize removing a 2/3 over your 4/5 or 5/6 Goyf, and second, if you win the fight over it they'll be so depleted that you're almost guaranteed to win from that point. Sometimes it dies, but the only thing it hits that Decay doesn't is Batterskull, and either Goyf or Decay + Null Rod permanently answers that. I've run Grip and Pulse in the past (and Pulse is back over Tar Pit) and they've been fine, but SFM decks right now are in the odd position that we need answers to them but have a lot of incidental SB power against them like Null Rod, Needle, and Golgari Charm, and can afford to run a slot that's high risk/high reward.

[mosaic]

Played on Prague Eternal and ended up 10th. (144 participants)

My list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Treasure Cruise

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Engineered Plague
1 Null Rod
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dimir Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle

R1: UB Tezzeret 2:0 (in the first game he started with Leyline of the Void and plays Ancient Tomb with Chalice of the Void set on 1. Nice start in the tournament ... saw no decay whole game, eventually won the game on back of Lili)
1:0

R2: Elves 2:1 (Delver decided to flip early and also Abrupt Decay just decided to present itself, also third game I saw Engineered Plague)
2:0

R3: Reanimator 2:1 (Shamans did their thing)
3:0

R4: Show and Tell 2:0 (Emrakul on battlefield is sad if Lili resolve)
4:0

R5: Miracles 2:0 (I guess it was just bad luck for Miracles)
5:0

R6: URW Delver 1:2 - (g1 I just won, g2 beaten to death with Lavamancer with Jitte equipped - no decay and g3 my misplay seal the deal for him)
5:1

R7: Omnitell 1:2 (g1 hymn+hymn, g2 and g3 he just drew more counters then I did)
5:2

R8: Dredge 2:0 (well outside of shamans and 1 copy of Surgical Extraction no GY hate, but it was just engough, was forced to decay my own delver in order to get rid of bridges)
6:2

Deck performed well, Hymns are still good. TC seems strong but sometimes it is .. oh well.

[seamonkeyman]

I'm playing Team America and GPNJ and couldn't be more excited!
I've been having quite a bit of luck with the deck over the 1.5 years or so playing all of the different builds and combinations of flex slots that have come along. I've played everything from Hymn to Thoughsize to a mix of both to no discard and Stifle. The other flex cards and creatures slots have been mixed up overtime from Tombstalker to Bob to True-Name to 3 Lilianas main.

I recently won a small GPT event to get 2 byes for the GP running the stock Bob Huang main deck (4 Stifles and 1 Dimir Charm). I also played this list to a top 32 finish at SCG Minneapolis a few weeks back so I'm pretty confident that it is an extremely good deck. However, I'd certainly be comfortable playing different cards in the flex slots if it would be correct for the expected meta (if that is actually possible in a 5000 person Legacy event).

For reference, the sideboard I've been using is
3 Disfigure
2 Gogari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Snare (lots of good 2 drops running around. Rest in Piece/Counterbalance/Goyf/Young Pyro/Price of Progress. This has been an MVP and would recommend running as a 1 of!)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Blast

If anyone else has read the SCG Premium articles and articles from other sites that have been posted this week, pretty much EVERYONE is recommending playing UR Delver for this event. Obviously I'm not changing decks at this point, however I'm wondering if a different main deck configuration may be better against the impending flood of UR Delver.

Stifle has been great since it has game in most matchups, however very weak against UR Delver. It does get boarded out a lot since better cards come in, however it is a great game 1 card. For the 5 flex slots I'm thinking of going with 2 Dimir Charm, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disfigure.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this change and how it would affect the UR Delver matchup. Are there other cards I should be considering?
Am I over-thinking things at the last minute?

[Borealis]

I'm playing Team America and GPNJ and couldn't be more excited!
I've been having quite a bit of luck with the deck over the 1.5 years or so playing all of the different builds and combinations of flex slots that have come along. I've played everything from Hymn to Thoughsize to a mix of both to no discard and Stifle. The other flex cards and creatures slots have been mixed up overtime from Tombstalker to Bob to True-Name to 3 Lilianas main.

I recently won a small GPT event to get 2 byes for the GP running the stock Bob Huang main deck (4 Stifles and 1 Dimir Charm). I also played this list to a top 32 finish at SCG Minneapolis a few weeks back so I'm pretty confident that it is an extremely good deck. However, I'd certainly be comfortable playing different cards in the flex slots if it would be correct for the expected meta (if that is actually possible in a 5000 person Legacy event).

For reference, the sideboard I've been using is
3 Disfigure
2 Gogari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Spell Snare (lots of good 2 drops running around. Rest in Piece/Counterbalance/Goyf/Young Pyro/Price of Progress. This has been an MVP and would recommend running as a 1 of!)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Blast

If anyone else has read the SCG Premium articles and articles from other sites that have been posted this week, pretty much EVERYONE is recommending playing UR Delver for this event. Obviously I'm not changing decks at this point, however I'm wondering if a different main deck configuration may be better against the impending flood of UR Delver.

Stifle has been great since it has game in most matchups, however very weak against UR Delver. It does get boarded out a lot since better cards come in, however it is a great game 1 card. For the 5 flex slots I'm thinking of going with 2 Dimir Charm, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disfigure.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this change and how it would affect the UR Delver matchup. Are there other cards I should be considering?
Am I over-thinking things at the last minute?

Hey seamonkey. I too am excited about this weekend. I'm a little nervous about the UR Delver matchup as I haven't tested against it extensively, but my record was 3-0 in games against it last weekend at a GPT. (One player took a game loss for misregistering his deck.) Neither player seemed insanely good with the deck, and they never got the "nut draw" against me, but I feel like the matchup is probably fine. Assuming they don't just run you over with a killer hand on the play, we just answer all their threats and take care to play around Fireblast and Price.

As for the rest of the field, I'm well aware that Miracles is a tough matchup, as well as the Blade decks, but those always come down to outplaying the opponent and they tend to be very interactive and interesting games. For this reason I'm not too worried about them, I just hope I play well when the time comes. Sneak and Show is very draw-dependent, and whoever has the most countermagic generally wins, and we do a lot better with a turn 1 Delver than any other threat. Similarly, Storm is very scary but also very beatable, especially with Flusterstorms, Discard, and Pierces in the deck. I liked Stifle there, but it's pretty easy for them to just snatch it away right before comboing with a discard spell. They generally know your hand due to Gix probe and Discard, but they can't play around countermagic as well as Stifle. My primary concerns beyond these matchups are stuff like Maverick/Taxes, Elves!, and other decks that attack from different angles (Enchantress, Stax, etc.). Stifle is a great card, but right now I want all my cards to trade well in all matches. Hence, I'm running Thoughtseize.

That said, I wouldn't want to weaken myself too much to combo/control in game 1, which is why I'd be wary about including something like Disfigure in my starting 60. It's fine against Blade decks, but does stone nothing to Miracles and Combo. If you really want the 1-mana removal, it's a fine card to start, but I'm pretty happy with just having 3 copies in my board and using the maindeck for better slots. I am, however, tempted to run a 2nd Spell Pierce in the main over one of my Nemesis spots. It's a very tough call. Nemesis is great vs. UW decks and any Delver mirrors, but doesn't do much against combo. Pierce is good against almost every deck besides the creature-heavy builds, namely Elves and Maverick/Taxes. I think that decision will come pretty last-minute this week, after some good discussion on the ride down with our secret weapon passenger, Mr. Ari Lax. Has to count for something that I've got a pro tour champ in the car with me right?

For reference, my current iteration:

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod and/or Pithing Needle
3 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library

[FoolofaTook]

UR Delver is close to a walkover for BUG Delver at this point. I've played various BUG lists in competition since UR Delver became a thing and I'm 5-1 in matches against them at this point.

Your cards are just better than their cards on a 1-for-1 basis. If the matchup is really causing problems for you then go with 2 BEB's in the SB.

I see the blue triangle at this point as Stoneblade >> BUG Delver >> UR Delver >> Stoneblade.

Stoneblade can't keep anything on the board early against UR Delver and so they get run over until they resolve a TNN. Even then the TNN doesn't help against a flipped Delver. Stoneblade's discard is less valuable against UR Delver because the average value of UR Delver's cards is lower and so the trade of a Thoughtseize for one of those cards is much lower.

Against BUG Delver UR Delver gets the early strikes but can't sustain once Abrupt Decay and Dimir Charm come online. They have no good way to get rid of Goyf and DRS lets us come back from low life totals against them.

BUG against Stoneblade is kind of miserable because they have high-value assets to put out in DRS, SFM, TNN, Jace and sometimes Liliana, they get the 2-for-1's with the equipment and SFM and they have Thoughtseize, which trades off well with our cards in terms of value and StP which removes Goyf easily. Also, we're a solid turn slower than UR Delver so Stoneblade's slower plan doesn't hurt them like it does against UR Delver.

[iostream]

Stifle is a great card, but right now I want all my cards to trade well in all matches. Hence, I'm running Thoughtseize.Thoughtseize trading poorly against UR was one of my biggest concerns and a dealbreaker in my mind since UR Delver is so huge... Aren't all their cards more or less interchangable? It's a glorified burn deck. Trading 2 life for a random card seems actively counterproductive to me. But I haven't played the matchup much, so perhaps I'm missing something. It seems to me that TS is really only fantastic versus combo and possibly Stoneblade if you don't have anything better to bring in.


That said, I wouldn't want to weaken myself too much to combo/control in game 1, which is why I'd be wary about including something like Disfigure in my starting 60.

[....]

Pierce is good against almost every deck besides the creature-heavy builds, namely Elves and Maverick/Taxes.

Have you tried just running both maindeck and moving the discard to the side? It seems like in the vast majority of matchups, either Pierce or Disfigure is really good, and you can just shuffle away whatever isn't relevant with BS, etc. The reason why this seems particularly cool is because both are great versus UR Delver. Pierce is much more likely to stop their big cards like TC/Price/Fireblast than Daze is, while the extra removal allows you to better control Pyromancer before it goes out of control. In any case, having more removal compensates for the fact that Pierce can't hit creatures.

Speaking of Daze being unable to stop big spells - I know people have complained in previous pages about Daze being less good than it has been in the past with games going longer, decks running more mana sources, and so on (side note: UR runs either 16 or 17 actual lands that can produce or fetch mana. How on earth is it the case that we are running even fewer given how much bigger we're going?!). But after a lot of testing, I'm starting to wonder if Daze is actually actively counterproductive. We ideally want to cast the stuff we Delve for as soon as we Delve for it. If that's the case, then why are we hindering our own mana development? Wouldn't it be better to run slightly harder countermagic like Spell Pierce which doesn't require us to pick up a land?

I know having free interaction is really important, it just seems like everyone is going big in this meta - Delver decks are running way more lands than they used to. The popular combo decks right now all have access to huge amounts of mana (Storm, Sneak/Show, Elves, etc). Stoneblade and Miracles are as popular as they've ever been, and both of them don't care at all about Daze...

[FoolofaTook]

Daze has always been a love-hate card in the list. It's really good on the play and potentially back-breaking for the opponent on a T1 Delver, since it punishes hard for not waiting to play around Daze. On the other hand it just blows chunks on the draw and half the time you're on the draw game 1.

I've done a lot of playing without Daze since Treasure Cruise was spoiled and I'm still not sure if it's good or bad overall in the list in this meta. The Spell Pierces are really good against some lists and not so good against others. My tribal matchups, which have always been bad game 1 got worse without Daze.

If you're playing Stifles and Wastes then Daze is a no-brainer. Not sure in the other configurations.

[Borealis]

Thoughtseize trading poorly against UR was one of my biggest concerns and a dealbreaker in my mind since UR Delver is so huge... Aren't all their cards more or less interchangable? It's a glorified burn deck. Trading 2 life for a random card seems actively counterproductive to me. But I haven't played the matchup much, so perhaps I'm missing something. It seems to me that TS is really only fantastic versus combo and possibly Stoneblade if you don't have anything better to bring in.

Have you tried just running both maindeck and moving the discard to the side? It seems like in the vast majority of matchups, either Pierce or Disfigure is really good, and you can just shuffle away whatever isn't relevant with BS, etc. The reason why this seems particularly cool is because both are great versus UR Delver. Pierce is much more likely to stop their big cards like TC/Price/Fireblast than Daze is, while the extra removal allows you to better control Pyromancer before it goes out of control. In any case, having more removal compensates for the fact that Pierce can't hit creatures.

Speaking of Daze being unable to stop big spells - I know people have complained in previous pages about Daze being less good than it has been in the past with games going longer, decks running more mana sources, and so on (side note: UR runs either 16 or 17 actual lands that can produce or fetch mana. How on earth is it the case that we are running even fewer given how much bigger we're going?!). But after a lot of testing, I'm starting to wonder if Daze is actually actively counterproductive. We ideally want to cast the stuff we Delve for as soon as we Delve for it. If that's the case, then why are we hindering our own mana development? Wouldn't it be better to run slightly harder countermagic like Spell Pierce which doesn't require us to pick up a land?

I know having free interaction is really important, it just seems like everyone is going big in this meta - Delver decks are running way more lands than they used to. The popular combo decks right now all have access to huge amounts of mana (Storm, Sneak/Show, Elves, etc). Stoneblade and Miracles are as popular as they've ever been, and both of them don't care at all about Daze...

Here's my philosophy with Seize vs. something like Disfigure maindeck. Seize will almost always hit something relevant in game 1, and also gains you information. It can be a dead draw in the later game, but in your opener it's basically gas against every single deck. Knowing what to play around and your opponent's actual strategy early in a match is huge. With everyone playing Gix Probe, we'd be at a reasonable disadvantage without the information garnered from any Peek spells in our deck. But more importantly, it takes their best card and sets you up for a longer game in most cases.

Thoughtseize might not be the best card against UR Delver, but it's far from the worst. It lets you know their hand, so you can prioritize counterspells for their spells/Cruise, or removal for their threats. It also lets you know if they are land-heavy or not, so you can Wasteland aggressively if it's prudent. But the key strategy for us against UR Delver is to remove all their threats. Seize can assist with taking a threat without costing you a 2-mana removal spell or something like Force, so you can then save it for a later Cruise attempt. If they are light on gas, you just take their Cruise or whatever powerful spell they might be sandbagging, be it Price, Force, Blast, whatever. Paying 2 life and 1 mana is still fine against this deck, even if it is a tempo-negative play. They aren't actual burn, they need to kill us with creatures and spells to win. And we can easily mitigate the damage from a single Seize. Put it this way though, do you want to risk them resolving that Pyro or Fireblast, or would you pay 2 life to know they won't play the spell at all? Most of their threats are worth more than 2 life.

The reason I'm so high on Seize vs. Disfigure is that Disfigure is stone dead in many matchups. Miracles, Sneak/Show, Storm, Enchantress, Belcher, etc. We already have Abrupt Decay as a potential dead card, but its flexibility and power when it's not dead mitigate this risk. What we don't want is more dead cards that don't pitch to Force. And while Delver decks and Blade decks are always going to be 50/50 in game 1, it's very easy to skew ourselves into a losing position against combo if we don't keep our disruption count high. Ditto for Miracles. The only decks I really want maindeck Disfigure against are Maverick, Taxes, and Elves. And again, Thoughtseize is still a card in all of those matchups. Basically Seize does everything, while Disfigure only does some things. In this Treasure Cruise world, I especially want Seize to try and win that race as often as possible. It's pretty bad when your opponent goes on a Cruise and you're left behind holding a dead card in addition to the lead they just took.

Again, Disfigure main is a fine meta call, especially at a smaller tournament. But this GP is likely to be 4000+ players, and you have NO idea what you might face the first half dozen rounds. Similar to Dimir Charm, Thoughtseize and Spell Pierce are very flexible, and help catch a lot of random chaff in a field as diverse as Legacy. Disfigure is just asking to be an awkward card in the wrong spot. Brainstorm mitigates these things to some extent, but you don't always have that luxury.

I shaved a Daze myself for a copy of Spell Pierce, and so far I like it. I wouldn't drop below 3 though, as it's still one of the best ways to protect your first threat on the play, and it's still a vital part in interacting with your combo opponents. Without Daze, we only have FoW for free counters, and there's still too much that can go wrong on turns 1-2 to be so exposed. Hell, I watched Brad Nelson play turn 1 Blood Moon against BBD in the videos on SCG this week. Yikes. People might be playing a few more lands, but it's nothing drastic. BUG runs 19 lands over RUG's old 18/19 standby. UR cut Wasteland but they only run 16/17 lands. UWR decks might crest over 20. But we still have a playset of Wasteland, and people still need to play spells on the first couple turns. Daze is still very relevant. Side note, keep in mind that the reason UR Delver runs so few lands is that nearly all their spells cost colored mana, outside stuff like Pyro and Price of Progress, so Wasteland does little to help them play spells. In our case, We still cast our 2-3 drops off Wasteland, so we still run more lands than them, however you slice it. Wasteland also pays for Daze, incidentally. Also, Daze going to GY basically replaces the land it bounced when paying for Cruise, and likely you are just replaying the land next turn to generate mana again anyway. Sure, sometimes it puts you behind a bit, but that's how Legacy goes. Trade resources, make tough choices.

[iostream]

Here's my philosophy with Seize vs. something like Disfigure maindeck. Seize will almost always hit something relevant in game 1, and also gains you information. It can be a dead draw in the later game, but in your opener it's basically gas against every single deck. Knowing what to play around and your opponent's actual strategy early in a match is huge. With everyone playing Gix Probe, we'd be at a reasonable disadvantage without the information garnered from any Peek spells in our deck. But more importantly, it takes their best card and sets you up for a longer game in most cases. This argument makes a lot of sense to me. I'll have to test for myself, but I can see where you're coming from here.


The reason I'm so high on Seize vs. Disfigure is that Disfigure is stone dead in many matchups. Miracles, Sneak/Show, Storm, Enchantress, Belcher, etc.

[....]

The only decks I really want maindeck Disfigure against are Maverick, Taxes, and Elves.
I think this is basically where our difference in opinion is coming from.

Basically, I think that choices about what goes in the maindeck are basically dictated by what is good versus the top decks of the format, in particular - UR Delver. When we Decay a Swiftspear or Thoughtseize a Pyroblast, I don't think that's good for us. UR is trying to beat us on mana efficiency, and those kind of exchanges play right into their game. Without some kind of efficient 1-mana way to interact with their board (like Disfigure) in the main, I feel like we're not adequately respecting the deck. Basically every knowledgable pro insists that this is the thing to be afraid of, and regardless of whether or not it's the real deal (and just to give my opinion, it definitely is), that fact alone makes it the clear Level 1 deck of the format that everyone is going to try to play. So even in a 4000+ player GP, I think it's pretty safe to say that given all the UR hype, you're going to play against it a lot, and so metagaming versus it is not unreasonable a priori.

As for Enchantress and Belcher and whatever, the solution to those have always been the same: just win your first round or two. Those decks are never going to be successful in large enough numbers for you to care about them if you start the tournament off well, and if you do start well, you will be sad if you have not metagamed properly for the top decks. Conversely, if you lose your first three rounds and are playing against Belcher decks for the rest of the day, who cares what's in your maindeck, or for that matter, how well you do? To put it another way: there are plenty of things that BUG (or any deck, really) has few/no outs to - if someone resolves Polukranos or Butcher of the Horde or whatever against me, it will be a huge pain. It's obviously not worth giving up edges against that, though. If we scrub out due to sheer bad luck of being paired against a random thing, that's life.

So to answer the question differently: in my mind, among decks that are relevant, Disfigure is only totally dead versus Sneak/Show and Storm. Miracles usually plays a few creatures which can all be handled by Disfigure, so you probably can get some utility out of it. Against everything else (all the Delver decks, Stoneblade, Elves, D+T, etc.) it is great and exactly what you want, and I imagine those decks are collectively > 50% of the top tables. What percentage of the top tables are going to be Sneak/Show or Storm? Not more than 20%, I think...


Without Daze, we only have FoW for free counters, and there's still too much that can go wrong on turns 1-2 to be so exposed.
Not every successful deck plays Daze, so this argument seems empirically false. I understand how Daze can prevent us from dying sometimes. I'm just curious about whether at the big-picture, strategic level it's the right thing to be doing with Treasure Cruise.

[Asthereal]

If you expect a lot of UR Delver, just add a Darkblast to the board.
It kills Pyro and unflipped Delvers in one shot, and there's always the upkeep hit for 1 and then dredge it back and main phase hit for the second, if you really need to kill a Swiftspear of flipped Delver.
It also fills up the yard nicely for our Cruises.

I really like Darkblast in the current meta (UR, Elves, D&T).

[Borealis]

@iostream

While I agree that we generally are going to lose some tempo in our exchanges with UR Delver's threats, I don't think that's necessarily a problem in comparison with the possibility of having a dead card in other matches. I'm perfectly fine trading a Decay for a Swiftspear, as they generally will have put at least one or two spells into Prowess triggers, netting you a small information advantage. Their spells are a lot less gassy when they don't actually create a token or relevant prowess trigger, and there is nothing quite like nuking a 3/4 or bigger Swifty.

Thoughtseize costing a mana and 2 life is probably a bit worse, but again you are also gaining information, which could easily mean the difference in playing your spells more efficiently and/or stopping a critical threat from them (aside from the one you took with Seize). Obviously, the first thing we do is Swap out Seize for Disfigure from the board. But it's still a fine card in game 1, and is much more relevant than something like Disfigure vs. Miracles.

Speaking of, what cards does Miracles play in game 1 that are even close to relevant targets for Disfigure? Last I checked, they have 0 creatures and Entreat the Angels as the only creature-generator in the deck. Mayybe they run the Creature-heavy version and have a couple Snapcasters and Cliques, but that is a big if, and it's not the fight we want to be fighting against them. And while Disfigure might get a target if you're lucky, it's likely much worse than something like Thoughtseize is against Delver.

Now your logic about how the rounds of a GP go is a bit flawed. For starters, the reason that people play decks like Belcher, Enchantress, Dredge, etc. is exactly because people don't expect them. They don't simply disappear after the first few rounds, and often they outperform their numbers (i.e. a higher percentage of them are successful). You could win 5 rounds straight and still get paired against randomness. I played Enchantress in round 6 of the tournament last weekend. I played 12 post round 1. There is no way to dodge these decks or predict what decks you will play. The Day 2 metagame is admittedly going to be a lot more "solved", and certainly decks like UR Delver will represent a great portion of the field. But you can't guarantee anything on Day 1, or for any of your rounds really. Certainly after 15 rounds you will probably have seen 3+ Delver players, and a handful of the other top tier decks across from you. But you have to actually play all 15 rounds for that to even matter. I fully expect to play against Delver, Blade, Miracles, and Combo on day 1. The other 50% of decks I play could be literally anything.

Even if we exclude the fringe decks, the top of the field will look something like this, courtesy of Pat Chapin:


Delver 30.3%
Elves 10.0%
Miracles 7.9%
Maverick/Taxes 6.5%
Stoneblade 5.6%
Dredge 5.1%
Ad Nauseam 4.4%
Sneak and Show 4.2%
Burn 4.0%
Reanimator 3.3%
Infect 3.0%
Lands 2.8%
Omni-Tell 2.6%

Disfigure is pretty bad (or straight dead) against over 25% of these decks (Miracles, Dredge, ANT, Sneak, Reanimate, Lands, Omni). Sure, it has applications against Dredge and Miracles, but Thoughtseize is going to better almost every single time.

I'm all for metagaming, and 1 copy of Disfigure is not going to make a huge difference, so this probably isn't a discussion worth too much of our time. But the point is, I'm unwilling to play a card still that is so bad against over a quarter of the field. And while statistics are worth looking at, they don't actually end up having much effect on what you actually play at a tournament this big. You can't just win your first few rounds and expect no one playing fringe strategies will do the same. You also can't guarantee that you don't just play 3 Combo players in a row, just because fate. Again, while it's worth having a specifically tuned deck for a smaller inbred tournament or metagame like MODO, this is going to be the most diverse field of Legacy players on the East Coast in one room. I'd rather have flexibility than metagaming precision at a GP of this size in a Format this deep.

RE: Daze, I'm aware that not every winning deck plays Daze, but that statement is kind of shaky anyway. I didn't say that other decks should be playing Daze or else they risk being bad, I said that we do. We are the Daze deck. The only other decks that are so enthusiastic about free counters are combo decks, and your occasional Blade/Control player. But Delver uses Daze to protect it's creatures and to fuck with combo. It's an inherent part of our plan. Obviously we could cut it and maybe improve some midrange matchups, but then we risk losing our identity. Remember rule #1: don't play a worse something else. You cut Daze, add some more Pierces and stuff, and suddenly you're trying to play control when you're actually the aggro.

We need Daze for a variety of reasons. It backs up our FoW, it keeps Combo from going off on us immediately, it protects our threats while we're tapped out, and it synergizes with Wasteland. It slows our opponents down and punishes those who lose patience. We want to run on 2-3 lands all game long, and Daze is a big part of our ability to do this, as well as our ability to bounce lands to shuffle back later in the game. If I thought it was a solid idea to cut it completely, I'd gladly test a Daze-less build, but this close to the tournament I can't afford to make such a decision, even if I thought it was correct. I'm still unsure about shaving one, but there's no way I'm cutting the spell completely. People will play into Daze, pure and simple. Similar to Stifle, it's always going to buy you a blowout in a tournament, and that's how you get free wins. You can cut it during Sideboarding to tune the deck up better for whatever the need, but game 1 it's the ultimate catchall. Keep in mind that Pierce doesn't answer creatures. There is some merit to cutting Daze and still gaining advantage from people playing around it, but the reason people are scared of it is that it's good. How else can you counter that turn 1 threat from your opponent or protect your DRS/Delver on the play for only 1 card? You cannot.

RE: Darkblast. I considered the card too, as it's obviously great when you draw it early, but I felt it was a bit redundant with all the Disfigures in the board, and it doesn't answer a few major problems in the matchups you want it: Namely Insectile Abberation, Swiftspear, Deathrite, Nettle Sentinel, Stoneforge, True-Name, Lord of Atlantis, etc. I already have Golgari Charm to sweep x/1s, so I'm opting for a single Toxic Deluge to clean up all the rest. (I get that Darkblast can upkeep/draw kill an x/2, but that's so inefficient and easily gets blown out by a number of responses.) Darkblast is definitely good against Delver and Elves, but Deluge is probably just as good, while hedging better against a variety of other decks and tougher creatures.

[FoolofaTook]

One of the effects of playing BUG Delver is that people assume you are playing Daze and they play around that a large part of the time. So other than T1 and T2 Daze really doesn't have a big effect other than to pitch to FoW. Occasionally you'll get the right draw and circumstances to turn on Daze in the mid game but a lot of the time it's a dead draw for you.

If you don't play Daze you often get the only benefit available to you anyway: which is that people play a turn slower and give you incremental advantage because they're afraid of it.

On the flip side the number of 2 Daze hands that I've had to pitch on the draw has been significant. If you're looking at 2 Daze on the draw the rest of the hand has to be damn near perfect to make it a keeper. You can't pick up your 1st land drop against most lists to Daze their turn 2 2-drop and expect to have a lot of play into the mid-game.

I'm just not remotely convinced that it's a strong card in the list given the percentage of the time it's relevant vs dead in hand. If you're playing Stifles that's different.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Good luck to all the BUG players this weekend!

[YamiJoey]

If you expect a lot of UR Delver, just add a Darkblast to the board.
It kills Pyro and unflipped Delvers in one shot, and there's always the upkeep hit for 1 and then dredge it back and main phase hit for the second, if you really need to kill a Swiftspear of flipped Delver.
It also fills up the yard nicely for our Cruises.

I really like Darkblast in the current meta (UR, Elves, D&T).

You can only do the Upkeep -> Draw Darkblast trick if they are tapped out and you expect zero interaction. Or else you are just straight dead. It's 2-mana and 2 cards to deal with one threat, and they can Bolt you in response to counter it. Which seems bad.

I also agree with Daze being a possible cut right now. I'm looking into being much less reactive as a deck going forward. Thoughtseize might seem bad at the moment, but it's probably better than Daze by miles, and cutting down to three Forces seems like a good idea. I'm probably going to look at doing a little tweaking, and possibly just upping the threat count, too. 4 Goyf + a Scooze or two?

[Asthereal]

You can only do the Upkeep -> Draw Darkblast trick if they are tapped out and you expect zero interaction. Or else you are just straight dead. It's 2-mana and 2 cards to deal with one threat, and they can Bolt you in response to counter it. Which seems bad.
Bolt in response? How does that counter Darkblast?

And we may sometimes trade two cards for a guy who was killing us, but it also netted us 6 cards in the yard to delve away for Cruise. I have used it, and it was bonkers. I drew it in my opener both post board games, and it did soo much work. Keeping Disfigure or Decay behind for Swiftspears, and just filling the grave up while taking out all other guys for B was really strong.

[Borealis]

@Asthereal, assuming you are trying to kill Swiftspear, they get a Prowess trigger. Basically, Darkblast is good, but doesn't solve all the problems, all the time. It can definitely be amazing, sometimes it feels like cheating it's so good, but getting locked into one of those situations where you need to cast it twice to get a single creature out of the way is exactly why I don't like it. If we didn't have stuff like Golgari Charm it would probably be a different story. And I could see one Darkblast taking the place of one Disfigure, which maybe I should try. Hmmm. Ok maybe you convinced me there.


One of the effects of playing BUG Delver is that people assume you are playing Daze and they play around that a large part of the time. So other than T1 and T2 Daze really doesn't have a big effect other than to pitch to FoW. Occasionally you'll get the right draw and circumstances to turn on Daze in the mid game but a lot of the time it's a dead draw for you.

If you don't play Daze you often get the only benefit available to you anyway: which is that people play a turn slower and give you incremental advantage because they're afraid of it.

On the flip side the number of 2 Daze hands that I've had to pitch on the draw has been significant. If you're looking at 2 Daze on the draw the rest of the hand has to be damn near perfect to make it a keeper. You can't pick up your 1st land drop against most lists to Daze their turn 2 2-drop and expect to have a lot of play into the mid-game.

I'm just not remotely convinced that it's a strong card in the list given the percentage of the time it's relevant vs dead in hand. If you're playing Stifles that's different.

I disagree that Daze has no value after Turns one and two. It's there as the last spell you play to win a counter war. It's there to fight opposing Dazes. It does pitch to Force or get shuffled away in the later game, but it can also still disrupt your opponent just long enough for you to get through for lethal, preventing them from doing enough in one turn to stabilize.

Daze is not dead on the draw. You use it sparingly, of course, but it can still be a critical way to have relevant answers on your opponent's first turns. Again, you might lead with a threat, and then Daze can still snag their Mystic. To me, that's perfectly acceptable, especially if your threat is a deathrite. Keep in mind DRS gets us ahead on mana as long as he sticks around, and Daze protects him.

Again, I would be wary of cutting down on Daze too much right now. Or Force for that matter. If we start cutting those cards for more counterspells that cost mana, or more discard, we risk simply being a turn too slow against every Delver mirror, specifically UR. UR will still play Daze, and will easily outpace us in tempo if we always have to pay 1 mana where they pay 0. Similarly, Force is too important right now with everyone playing Treasure Cruise and Dig. You don't want to be the guy with less Forces in the Ancestral Recall Showdown.

Daze gets better with Stifle, which is why I'm cutting one Daze for a Spell Pierce in my Stifle-less list. But I'm pretty skeptical that chopping it completely is the right call at all. Again, if I was convinced and had more time, I might test it. But for this weekend, I'm still showing up with Daze in my deck and not regretting it at all.

[Asthereal]

@Asthereal, assuming you are trying to kill Swiftspear, they get a Prowess trigger.
Oh that. Yeah well Swiftspear isn't the biggest issue usually.
They have to cast stuff to turn it into a decent threat.
And Deathrite eating guys can compensate for it.
Flipped Delvers are much more dangerous.

But we could also just use Disfigures. I actually play 3x Disfigure main right now.

[Borealis]

I'm usually pretty scared of Swiftspear actually. 3/4 is not uncommon, and I've seen Spears as big as 5/6 or better attacking in tandem, which is terrifying. On average, it's probably at least a 2/3 every turn you let them attack, but it's not hard for them to make it a 3/4 when they know the coast is clear. Delver is scary too, but I would contend that Swiftspear is their best threat in the deck.

That said, I'm still considering now a Darkblast in place of the third Disfigure. While Disfigure is a little safer against a few creatures, Darkblast does have a significant upside. Not so much for UR Delver, but for the Maverick and Elves decks I might face, I think I will take a small gamble and play the more powerful card as well as the other options.

[btm10]

Oh that. Yeah well Swiftspear isn't the biggest issue usually.
They have to cast stuff to turn it into a decent threat.
And Deathrite eating guys can compensate for it.
Flipped Delvers are much more dangerous.

But we could also just use Disfigures. I actually play 3x Disfigure main right now.

I think that's overkill for a matchup that's pretty favorable already (as of this writing, I'm 4-0 in matches against it). As for Darkblast, I haven't tested it, but I think I'd rather have it be the 3rd SB Disfigure or even the first Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Engineered Plague, or Deluge; killing X/1s and the occasional X/2 is fine, but we've got slots that do that already.

I haven't come to a definite verdict on the full disruption suite, but I definitely don't like more than one MD Disfigure. If I could make it to the GP, I'd probably play my SCG Columbus list -2 Hymn, +2 Thoughtseize or Pierce, make some small SB changes, and call it a day.

[YamiJoey]

Darkblast isn't good against that deck at all. It kills an Unflipped Delver and THAT'S IT. They can protect Swiftspear, and generate value from Pyromancer anyway. Swiftspear and Aberration is a 2-1, and sometimes you won't even hit their guy with it. Play Disfigure. You can catch them with it when their guard is low (T1 Swiftspear, T2 Ponder) it costs less mana, and kills everything in one go. If they ever counter your second Darkblast, you lose the game on the spot. I've been playing a pair, and it seems good.

Deluge is a card I haven't thought about, and may be worth a look. Set it to 3 and you're going to have a good time, but you do end up Bolting yourself and killing basically all of your own dudes.

[FoolofaTook]

I think that's overkill for a matchup that's pretty favorable already (as of this writing, I'm 4-0 in matches against it). As for Darkblast, I haven't tested it, but I think I'd rather have it be the 3rd SB Disfigure or even the first Dismember, Diabolic Edict, Engineered Plague, or Deluge; killing X/1s and the occasional X/2 is fine, but we've got slots that do that already.

I haven't come to a definite verdict on the full disruption suite, but I definitely don't like more than one MD Disfigure. If I could make it to the GP, I'd probably play my SCG Columbus list -2 Hymn, +2 Thoughtseize or Pierce, make some small SB changes, and call it a day.

BUG really does own UR at this point. They can't handle the move into the mid-game at all when we have uncounterable ways to remove all their permanents and they have no way to deal with Goyf.

[Asthereal]

Darkblast isn't good against that deck at all. It kills an Unflipped Delver and THAT'S IT. They can protect Swiftspear, and generate value from Pyromancer anyway. Swiftspear and Aberration is a 2-1, and sometimes you won't even hit their guy with it. Play Disfigure. You can catch them with it when their guard is low (T1 Swiftspear, T2 Ponder) it costs less mana, and kills everything in one go. If they ever counter your second Darkblast, you lose the game on the spot. I've been playing a pair, and it seems good.

Deluge is a card I haven't thought about, and may be worth a look. Set it to 3 and you're going to have a good time, but you do end up Bolting yourself and killing basically all of your own dudes.
I played it and loved it. You could try it too before judging. Killing Pyro ASAP is good. Yes they might get one or two tokens, but nothing our Goyf cannot beat. If they get to keep Pyro for longer we are in serious trouble. The best part about Darkblast is you use it once and just leave it in the grave until you need it again.

But don't forget Darkblast really shines in other matchups as well: Elves and Death&Taxes. Both matchups are pretty tough, so we can definitely use some help there. I am very happy with my Darkblast right now.

[zenzog]

So far 3-2 at the gp. Had 1 bye then played ur delver, ur delver, uwr stoneforge, and ur delver.

Lost the last 2 so I'm in dream crushing mode.

[Thorhammer]

So far 3-2 at the gp. Had 1 bye then played ur delver, ur delver, uwr stoneforge, and ur delver.

Lost the last 2 so I'm in dream crushing mode.

Crush em good!

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

AKA "The Dream Crusher" lol

[FoolofaTook]

So far 3-2 at the gp. Had 1 bye then played ur delver, ur delver, uwr stoneforge, and ur delver.

Lost the last 2 so I'm in dream crushing mode.

Stoneblade variants are really tough for us. Sorry you had to run into one before the draw rounds.

[Requiem2]

Played a local last night, going 3-1 cashing out. I cut the stifles to meta a bit against all the UR Delvers I have been playing against. Normally I'm on the 4 stifle, 1 dimir and have cashed the past 3/4 locals. The one week I didn't cash I was back on the hymn/lily older list. I ran 3/2 pierce thoughtsieze split. Pierce was strong all day as keeping our creatures up and stopping walkers etc. There weren't any situations where I wished it was a stifle instead. Thoughtsieze felt weak for me, and dimir charm great removal that could fow fodder. I was happy with 3 daze, decent chance to have one in the opening hand and less drawn over a game.

12 creatures
Tarmo/delver/drs
29 spells
4bs/4ponder/4fow/4ad
3daze/3tc/3pierce
2thoughtsieze/2dimir
19 land
3usea/2trop/1bayou
9fetches/4waste

SB
2 Disfigure
2 Darkblast
2 flusterstorm
2 grafdigger's
2 golgari
1 vendilion
1 maelstrom
1 pierce
1 spell snare
1 null rod

R1 vs The Rock 1-2
Grindy games but bob/tarmo/lily with plow/AD get him there.

R2 Rug Delver 2-0
Drs keeps him off TC, pierce on bolts keeps threats alive.

R3 Dredge 2-1
Tarmo and delver beats and counters on dread return lock this up.

R4 Mono green agro brew 2-1
Tarmo and a better SB so wonders.

[Asthereal]

Played a tourney today with 75 participants.
Got a bad result, but the list wasn't the problem, apart from one match.

My 75:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cruise
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Decay
2 Disfigure

4 Sea
3 Tropical
8 Fetch
4 Wasteland

Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

R1: TES (TomT) 2-0
Game 1 I mull to a five with FoW. I draw another FoW which he doesn't get to see and he walks into it.
Game 2 I have a grip full of blue cards and he almost manages to fight through it. Almost. Not unlucky this round.

R2: Punishing Jund 0-2
Game 1 I get him to 1, he gets me to 0. So close! Still, my list is NOT tuned for this matchup, so...
Game 2 He hits me with 2x Waste and a Loam. I manage to exile the Loam but I am too far behind. Punishing Fire seals it.

R3: Deadguy Ale 2-0
Game 1 Flipped Delvers get him. I disrupt his game just enough to get there. Pretty close one.
Game 2 I feel more in control. He never really gets anything dangerous going and my guys get there.

R4: RiP/Helm Miracles 0-2
Game 1 I draw a tad awkward (drew both Disfigures, f.i.). His main deck rest in Peace does work, and his Top gets him answers wherever he needs them. Helm gets me.
Game 2 I draw even more awkward, while he gets everything he needs right when he needs it, even without Top this time. I had tuned my list to be good against Miracles. Sucks to be this helpless, but I strongly feel this was due to variance and I perhaps boarded wrong.

R5: Dredge 2-1
Game 1 I disrupt his early game. My guys kill him before he can go nuts.
Game 2 I misplay a bit, and I should have mulled my initial 7 away. I cannot stop him from going nuts this time.
Game 3 Cage, counters and Delvers are too much for him to handle.

R6: Red MUD 1-2
Game 1 I mull to a landless four. Never saw a coloured land in any of my hands. I FoW his Moon, but his next threat is enough. That 3-5 guy that fetches Blightsteel or so. You know.
Game 2 I stop all his sick stuff and just kill him like I am supposed to.
Game 3 I mull to a moah six, I have to cantrip so I cannot stop his Trinisphere which in turn makes me a turn slow to stop the Moon effect. Bad hands against Moon decks are auto-losses.

R7: UB Tezz 2-1
Game 1 I stop his sick stuff and kill him.
Game 2 I stumble over his Abyss (nice!). When I finally Grip that Abyss, he already pushed a Tezz the Seeker through, which finds him the Thopter combo. Did not know he had that. Extra sideboarding!
Game 3 He mulls to 6 and goes City>Signet. I Waste the City and Decay the Signet, and he never finds new mana before my team gets him. Wow, finally I was on the winning side of the variance again!

Conclusions:
- The list is great. I don't want to change a thing.
- Finding blue lands is hard, for some reason. 15 should be enough, right?
- Keeping in too many Decays against Miracles doesn't necessarily have to be punished by me drawing all of them. Two would have been sufficient.
- Force of Will is a great card. It'd be nice if I drew it more consistently.

[Blackened]

Played a tourney today with 75 participants.
Got a bad result, but the list wasn't the problem, apart from one match.

My 75:
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
4 Goyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Cruise
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Decay
2 Disfigure

4 Sea
3 Tropical
8 Fetch
4 Wasteland

Side:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

R1: TES (TomT) 2-0
Game 1 I mull to a five with FoW. I draw another FoW which he doesn't get to see and he walks into it.
Game 2 I have a grip full of blue cards and he almost manages to fight through it. Almost. Not unlucky this round.

R2: Punishing Jund 0-2
Game 1 I get him to 1, he gets me to 0. So close! Still, my list is NOT tuned for this matchup, so...
Game 2 He hits me with 2x Waste and a Loam. I manage to exile the Loam but I am too far behind. Punishing Fire seals it.

R3: Deadguy Ale 2-0
Game 1 Flipped Delvers get him. I disrupt his game just enough to get there. Pretty close one.
Game 2 I feel more in control. He never really gets anything dangerous going and my guys get there.

R4: RiP/Helm Miracles 0-2
Game 1 I draw a tad awkward (drew both Disfigures, f.i.). His main deck rest in Peace does work, and his Top gets him answers wherever he needs them. Helm gets me.
Game 2 I draw even more awkward, while he gets everything he needs right when he needs it, even without Top this time. I had tuned my list to be good against Miracles. Sucks to be this helpless, but I strongly feel this was due to variance and I perhaps boarded wrong.

R5: Dredge 2-1
Game 1 I disrupt his early game. My guys kill him before he can go nuts.
Game 2 I misplay a bit, and I should have mulled my initial 7 away. I cannot stop him from going nuts this time.
Game 3 Cage, counters and Delvers are too much for him to handle.

R6: Red MUD 1-2
Game 1 I mull to a landless four. Never saw a coloured land in any of my hands. I FoW his Moon, but his next threat is enough. That 3-5 guy that fetches Blightsteel or so. You know.
Game 2 I stop all his sick stuff and just kill him like I am supposed to.
Game 3 I mull to a moah six, I have to cantrip so I cannot stop his Trinisphere which in turn makes me a turn slow to stop the Moon effect. Bad hands against Moon decks are auto-losses.

R7: UB Tezz 2-1
Game 1 I stop his sick stuff and kill him.
Game 2 I stumble over his Abyss (nice!). When I finally Grip that Abyss, he already pushed a Tezz the Seeker through, which finds him the Thopter combo. Did not know he had that. Extra sideboarding!
Game 3 He mulls to 6 and goes City>Signet. I Waste the City and Decay the Signet, and he never finds new mana before my team gets him. Wow, finally I was on the winning side of the variance again!

Conclusions:
- The list is great. I don't want to change a thing.
- Finding blue lands is hard, for some reason. 15 should be enough, right?
- Keeping in too many Decays against Miracles doesn't necessarily have to be punished by me drawing all of them. Two would have been sufficient.
- Force of Will is a great card. It'd be nice if I drew it more consistently.

I'm really loving this deck, I played it at GPNJ. My dream was dead round 7 when I lost to the mirror (due to foolish sequencing misplays on my part). We play identical main deck lists, except I opted to use the Dimir Charm instead of the third Spell Pierce. My conclusion is that that was a mistake. I'm not sure if I'd go for a third Pierce, third Disfigure, or even try to stretch Stifle into the deck somehow, but all of those options would be better than the Charm.

I played a one-of Spell Snare in the sideboard and it pulled its weight multiple times. I think for some smaller tournaments I might consider even cutting the Dimir Charm in my build for a Spell Snare. Anyone else have a lot of success with Spell Snare?

[Griselpuff]

Hey all,

Just thought I'd post here because y'all are my fav. Went 13-2 with UWR Delver, I think it's the new TA. The deck is absolutely insane with sb CB, so I would recommend trying to get some of the cards and making the switch, at least until UR Delver becomes less popular. In which case, Lili+friends will be good again.

I'll probably write up a report for CFB

[Asthereal]

I'm really loving this deck, I played it at GPNJ. My dream was dead round 7 when I lost to the mirror (due to foolish sequencing misplays on my part). We play identical main deck lists, except I opted to use the Dimir Charm instead of the third Spell Pierce. My conclusion is that that was a mistake. I'm not sure if I'd go for a third Pierce, third Disfigure, or even try to stretch Stifle into the deck somehow, but all of those options would be better than the Charm.

I played a one-of Spell Snare in the sideboard and it pulled its weight multiple times. I think for some smaller tournaments I might consider even cutting the Dimir Charm in my build for a Spell Snare. Anyone else have a lot of success with Spell Snare?
Nice, a fellow traveler! :smile: :cool:

I wouldn't call Dimir Charm a mistake. It's a matter of choice.
There's a few things I don't like about it:
1. It's a tad expensive: I need two Duals to cast it (not counting Deathrite, since he usually dies). Keeping two open to use its counter ability is hard.
2. It doesn't hit quite a few important guys: flipped Delver, Goyf, Clique, Batterskull token.

I opted to make sure I never run the risk of having cards stuck in my hand other than Cruise.
That's why all the BB cost cards have gone, and putting a similar card back in felt wrong.
So these are the reasons why I decided not to run it. It's still a solid card though. Versatile.

Snare might be a solid choice, even for the main deck.
I would love to try it. There were many CMC2 cards that are annoying.

What does your sideboard look like?

[FoolofaTook]

Hey all,

Just thought I'd post here because y'all are my fav. Went 13-2 with UWR Delver, I think it's the new TA. The deck is absolutely insane with sb CB, so I would recommend trying to get some of the cards and making the switch, at least until UR Delver becomes less popular. In which case, Lili+friends will be good again.

I'll probably write up a report for CFB

There were 25 Stoneforge Mystics in the 16 Day 1 undefeated lists. It's the go-to creature at this point, replacing Tarmogoyf in that role.

[nossirag]

There were 25 Stoneforge Mystics in the 16 Day 1 undefeated lists. It's the go-to creature at this point, replacing Tarmogoyf in that role.

Still someone made it into the top 16.
It would be interesting to see a overall number of decks archetypes played to see if it's just variance which makes it look like that. You know if all the Bug players switched to Rug/esper whatever, of course there will be less in the top16, but that doesnt make the other decks better. the meta is so diverse that it's hard to see which are truly the best decks.

[FoolofaTook]

Still someone made it into the top 16.
It would be interesting to see a overall number of decks archetypes played to see if it's just variance which makes it look like that. You know if all the Bug players switched to Rug, of course there will be less in the top16, but that doesnt make the other decks better. the meta is so diverse that it's hard to see which are truly the best decks.

It'd be nice to see Daniel Signorini and Noah Cohen's lists. Those were the two BUG Delver's at 33 points after round 14.

[btm10]

Hey all,

Just thought I'd post here because y'all are my fav. Went 13-2 with UWR Delver, I think it's the new TA. The deck is absolutely insane with sb CB, so I would recommend trying to get some of the cards and making the switch, at least until UR Delver becomes less popular. In which case, Lili+friends will be good again.

I'll probably write up a report for CFB

Looking forward to the report, and congrats on your finish.

I'm consistently unimpressed by SFM as a creature, which limits the odds that I'll be picking up UWR. I definitely see the attraction to CB, and more than that, to Pyroblast/REB in UWR. I haven't found UR to be a problem for TA at all, and Blade decks are all beatable with appropriate sideboarding even if the game 1s run slightly unfavorable if Batterskull shows up. There's definitely less Miracles for us to prey on, so traditional TA might not be the best. Ironically, Shardless beats both Blade variants and UR soundly, though it's a little soft to ANT/TES.

Anyway, I'm more likely to try Eli Kassis' UBR control list than I am to pick up white for SFM/StP.

[nossirag]

It'd be nice to see Daniel Signorini and Noah Cohen's lists. Those were the two BUG Delver's at 33 points after round 14.

Yes.
You can also take a look at the trial winners if have seen some bug lists winning those.
I'm also with the maverick player who said in the interview that tarmo is pretty strong in the meta because hes pretty resilient when it comes to red removal.

[FoolofaTook]

Yes.
You can also take a look at the trial winners if have seen some bug lists winning those.
I'm also with the maverick player who said in the interview that tarmo is pretty strong in the meta because hes pretty resilient when it comes to red removal.

No Goyfs in the top 8 at GP NJ. Another Treasure Cruise mission accomplished. TC heavily disrupted the three best Goyf lists in the meta in RUG Canadian, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. It took Jund down another notch as well, even though that didn't need to happen at this point.

[nossirag]

No Goyfs in the top 8 at GP NJ. Another Treasure Cruise mission accomplished. TC heavily disrupted the three best Goyf lists in the meta in RUG Canadian, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. It took Jund down another notch as well, even though that didn't need to happen at this point.
Yay, but is this because the good bug players lost to other treasure cruise deck or because most of them wanted to play the “best“ decks currently and jumped on the uwr, blade, ur hype train?

[FoolofaTook]

Yay, but is this because the good bug players lost to other treasure cruise deck or because most of them wanted to play the “best“ decks currently and jumped on the uwr, blade, ur hype train?

I think it is because Treasure Cruise devalued black heavily and green somewhat in the overall meta and people found more effective synergies in lists that were not black and green.

Stoneforge Mystic is a good card. It isn't at Goyf's power level overall but once the other cards that Goyf synergizes with have been weakened some SFM becomes an excellent 2 drop to replace Goyf.

I could be wrong on this but I am guessing that the BUG lists that did well at GPNJ were more heavily blue than normal and much less black. My own experience in prepping for GPNJ with BUG was that blue was the way to go but that tribal matchups were a problem. I didn't attend for a multitude of reasons but one really big one was that I thought BUG and Jund were unfavored in the current meta and those are the lists I own.

[btm10]

No Goyfs in the top 8 at GP NJ. Another Treasure Cruise mission accomplished. TC heavily disrupted the three best Goyf lists in the meta in RUG Canadian, BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. It took Jund down another notch as well, even though that didn't need to happen at this point.

I'm highly skeptical of this being the cause. I've never had a problem keeping 4/5 Goyfs in Cruise mirrors, and BUG Delver cleaned up in the last chance GPTs on Friday, winning five of them, in both Hymn/Liliana and Stifle configurations. Even with some of these lists being suboptimal for running fewer than 4 MD Forces.


Yay, but is this because the good bug players lost to other treasure cruise deck or because most of them wanted to play the “best“ decks currently and jumped on the uwr, blade, ur hype train?

I suspect this is closer to reality, with the major driver being deck choice. A lot of us have the cards to build just about any legacy blue deck we want, and I think many people wanted to play the best Cruise deck (UR Delver) or the best anti-UR Delver/maindeck Pyroblast deck (UWR Blade) rather than something like BUG Delver that's generally strong but can't support Blasts. I definitely don't think it's a bad decision to play this deck, but I also definitely see the attraction to the REB/Pyroblast plan.

[nossirag]

Ok, time for some more random thoughts thrown together.

1. I believe many people don't really test, dont get me wrong, maybe they play a deck for a few games but most of the time this isnt enough to erase variance and get a unbiased opinion, so they choose their deck based on recent results and hype.

2. Like BTM said many legacy players have the cards to build multiple decks. BUG used to be the deck which is the best against an open field, so it was a logical choice for many people.

3. Now people wanted to play U/R or anti UR. See 1.

4. Which led to even less combo and so on - made the meta more fair.

5. a reason for running white instead of green/ black is definitely not batterskull(lifesteal and the body is good) but Jitte, its like an automatic win vs U/R and other fair decks.

6. Tarmo and Abrupt Decay are very good in a fair meta. Deathrite Shaman is also good vs TC and the usual graveyard things running around.

[Fallacy]

This might seem like left field, but is there any reason we can't play Counterbalance SB? I've converted my build from the Hymns and Lily's to the Stifle/Pierce plan, and have yet to try it. Going to the Stifle package makes UU easy to cast Counterbalance, and the deck runs 21 1cc and 13 2cc, making blind counters pretty reasonable against burn, UR, mirror, etc. I've always like TA's sideboard flexibility, so I'm not too keen on swapping out 3-5 cards for Counterbalance/Top, but thought I'd ask if it's every been tried.

[wcm8]

This might seem like left field, but is there any reason we can't play Counterbalance SB? I've converted my build from the Hymns and Lily's to the Stifle/Pierce plan, and have yet to try it. Going to the Stifle package makes UU easy to cast Counterbalance, and the deck runs 21 1cc and 13 2cc, making blind counters pretty reasonable against burn, UR, mirror, etc. I've always like TA's sideboard flexibility, so I'm not too keen on swapping out 3-5 cards for Counterbalance/Top, but thought I'd ask if it's every been tried.

It's perfectly fine to consider it. You can do 1 SDT main, 1 side and then 2-3 CBalance SB. Or 2-3 SDT side. With all of the cantrips this deck runs, you probably don't need to run the full playset of either card. This is an old strategy back from one of the original iterations of Canadian Thresh, there's no reason a BUG list can't incorporate it.

Also, despite the relatively "weak" showing at GP Jersey, TA is hardly dead. And actually if you look beyond the top 16, BUG decks performed relatively well. The field will adapt to beat UR/UWr Delver decks. Versus Chalice-style decks and MUD, having access to DRS and Abrupt decay is huge. TA might not be the best list to take advantage of TCruise, but this doesn't make it weak. The deck just needs to make some adjustments to the main/SB. I'd consider running some sort of sweeper (or two) in the maindeck given the prevalence of X/1 creatures -- Golgari Charm(s) perhaps?

[Fallacy]

How far down did you see TA rankings? I was looking at some of the deck lists today (#16 and some of the GPT's), but couldn't find lists too deep into the rankings. Do you have a link?

[H]

How far down did you see TA rankings? I was looking at some of the deck lists today (#16 and some of the GPT's), but couldn't find lists too deep into the rankings. Do you have a link?

Sultai Delver (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76131)

16th place, you have to keep in mind the bad new Khans names.

[YamiJoey]

This might seem like left field, but is there any reason we can't play Counterbalance SB? I've converted my build from the Hymns and Lily's to the Stifle/Pierce plan, and have yet to try it. Going to the Stifle package makes UU easy to cast Counterbalance, and the deck runs 21 1cc and 13 2cc, making blind counters pretty reasonable against burn, UR, mirror, etc. I've always like TA's sideboard flexibility, so I'm not too keen on swapping out 3-5 cards for Counterbalance/Top, but thought I'd ask if it's every been tried.

Don't fuckin' go there man. I may not climb back up from that hole...

[Thorhammer]

Some thoughts after the GP results:

UR delver is good but beatable.
Stoneforge mystic is the card that beats it.
Miracles is still good.
Liliana just can't keep up with treasure cruise. :cry:
Sudden shock is a card. :laugh:

So my takeaways from this would be that Thoughtseize is good again since it lines up well against Stoneforge mystic and Jeskai decks. I also think some number of Krosan Grip in the board will be necessary going forward since the meta will shift towards to UWR. In all this, Dimir charm still seems good since it kills stone forge, counter's treasure cruise and miracles.

[FoolofaTook]

My biggest takeaway from the GP results is that Stoneforge Mystic, a creature that has always given BUG trouble, is now the hottest creature in the meta. Young Pyromancer we can deal with but it stretches us further in directions we're already overstretched in as it is.

I think BUG has seen it's day. It's like a more consistent version of Jund right now but lacking some of the overwhelming tools (PFire, BBE) that Jund has to make up for the lack of early consistency.

[Blackened]

Nice, a fellow traveler! :smile: :cool:

I wouldn't call Dimir Charm a mistake. It's a matter of choice.
There's a few things I don't like about it:
1. It's a tad expensive: I need two Duals to cast it (not counting Deathrite, since he usually dies). Keeping two open to use its counter ability is hard.
2. It doesn't hit quite a few important guys: flipped Delver, Goyf, Clique, Batterskull token.

I opted to make sure I never run the risk of having cards stuck in my hand other than Cruise.
That's why all the BB cost cards have gone, and putting a similar card back in felt wrong.
So these are the reasons why I decided not to run it. It's still a solid card though. Versatile.

Snare might be a solid choice, even for the main deck.
I would love to try it. There were many CMC2 cards that are annoying.

What does your sideboard look like?

Those are precisely the reasons why I wish I didn't end up using it. I guess I should have ran more gauntlets with the deck to realize that. It's just too expensive, as versatile as it is.

My sideboard currently looks like this:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Snare
1 Darkblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

I was using Misdirection over Krosan Grip and another Surgical over Sylvan Library for the GP. The situations where Misdirection was relevant (like against the mirror or UG Infect) I'd have preferred it was a Divert but ultimately the misdirect effect didn't feel as powerful as I anticipated. I cut the idea entirely in favor of more Stoneblade assistance with Krosan Grip. Surgical was great, but didn't really need more than one at all, especially in conjunction with Cages, so I opted for more help in the mirror/miracles/grindy matchups in the form of Sylvan Library. I'm pretty sure Library is a standard sideboard choice at this point, I'm unsure of why I didn't use it.

[btm10]

My biggest takeaway from the GP results is that Stoneforge Mystic, a creature that has always given BUG trouble, is now the hottest creature in the meta. Young Pyromancer we can deal with but it stretches us further in directions we're alreardy overstretched in as it is.

I think BUG has seen it's day. It's like a more consistent version of Jund right now but lacking some of the overwhelming tools (PFire, BBE) that Jund has to make up for the lack of early consistency.

Maybe we have different definitions of "trouble", but "is sometimes irritating" isn't mine. SFM a popular card to be sure, but Grip in the board (which was probably optimal anyway) and Thoughtseize or Stifle main make it pretty bad. If you're that concerned about UWx Blade, run two Grips or a Grip and a Trygon Predator. Our days of being the format's undisputed best deck may be over, but to pretend we're not still a contender is just silly and flies in the face of evidence.

Hilariously, after all the "Shardless is dead" talk, a UR Delver vs. UWx Blade metagame is pretty welcoming for BUG Cascade.

[Asthereal]

Those are precisely the reasons why I wish I didn't end up using it. I guess I should have ran more gauntlets with the deck to realize that. It's just too expensive, as versatile as it is.

My sideboard currently looks like this:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Snare
1 Darkblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

I was using Misdirection over Krosan Grip and another Surgical over Sylvan Library for the GP. The situations where Misdirection was relevant (like against the mirror or UG Infect) I'd have preferred it was a Divert but ultimately the misdirect effect didn't feel as powerful as I anticipated. I cut the idea entirely in favor of more Stoneblade assistance with Krosan Grip. Surgical was great, but didn't really need more than one at all, especially in conjunction with Cages, so I opted for more help in the mirror/miracles/grindy matchups in the form of Sylvan Library. I'm pretty sure Library is a standard sideboard choice at this point, I'm unsure of why I didn't use it.
Nice!

I anticipated a lot of Miracles and UWR DelverBlade, plus some Elves and combo, so my 15 were:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
1 Spell Pierce (other three main)
1 Darkblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendlilion Clique /15

So that's quite similar, only -1 Peedle, +1 Grip, and I chose to play more counterspells. Combo is a big thing here in the Netherlands. :cool: By the way, Sylvan is way too good to cut. I board it in sooo much! Excellent for replacing 1-2 Cruises when you anticipate grave hosers.

[FoolofaTook]

Maybe we have different definitions of "trouble", but "is sometimes irritating" isn't mine. SFM a popular card to be sure, but Grip in the board (which was probably optimal anyway) and Thoughtseize or Stifle main make it pretty bad. If you're that concerned about UWx Blade, run two Grips or a Grip and a Trygon Predator. Our days of being the format's undisputed best deck may be over, but to pretend we're not still a contender is just silly and flies in the face of evidence.

Hilariously,

The definition of past prime is when you're just a contender. UWR Stoneblade/Delver is a better list right now and markedly so. Miracles is a better list and again it's not really close.

I don't see BUG's decline as particularly bad. We're in about the same place RUG Canadian is in. The difference is that RUG Canadian was obviously there at the start of the GP so very few people played it.

Think about what the Treasure Cruise meta did. It promoted hasty creatures and lowered the value of the cards people had in hand in the process. It made discard less valuable overall. It made red more valuable in the overall meta and black much less valuable. Then inside of that it gave people disincentives to use assets other than Treasure Cruise that depended on the graveyard.

Another way to look at the Treasure Cruise meta is that it made graveyards valuable to all blue lists, not just the lists like RUG and BUG that were going to use them for well-defined but narrow purposes. Not surprisingly this created much more value in other blue lists while providing only marginally more value in BUG and virtually no value in RUG.

BUG is in decline because other lists are on the rise. That's just the way it works. Sticking with a good list as others rise is fine. You do need to find a way to adjust some or it's going to hurt.

[Fallacy]

Maybe we have different definitions of "trouble", but "is sometimes irritating" isn't mine. SFM a popular card to be sure, but Grip in the board (which was probably optimal anyway) and Thoughtseize or Stifle main make it pretty bad. If you're that concerned about UWx Blade, run two Grips or a Grip and a Trygon Predator. Our days of being the format's undisputed best deck may be over, but to pretend we're not still a contender is just silly and flies in the face of evidence.

Hilariously, after all the "Shardless is dead" talk, a UR Delver vs. UWx Blade metagame is pretty welcoming for BUG Cascade.

I agree completely.

I like the Thoughtseize suite versus UWR-blade decks, and we have loads of removal (2-3 Disfigure, Darkblast, 4 AD, 1-2 Clique being a virtual removal) to deal with creatures. I'm adding 1 more Kgrip, totaling 2 to my SB to help on the blade or Miracles MU's. I also upped my Clique count to 2, again to deal with the previously mentioned MU's.

I don't necessarily mind that there will be fewer BUG decks, as it could make it less expected.

[Thorhammer]

The definition of past prime is when you're just a contender.


In what way is 16th place in a gigantor tourney past its prime? We just need to adapt. Stifle seems good again. Krosan Grip into the board as at least a one off.

As an aside. Convince me that Sylvan Library belongs in the board. I just don't see it as necessary with treasure cruise. I am more than welcome to being wrong.

[Fallacy]

My biggest takeaway from the GP results is that Stoneforge Mystic, a creature that has always given BUG trouble, is now the hottest creature in the meta. Young Pyromancer we can deal with but it stretches us further in directions we're already overstretched in as it is.

I think BUG has seen it's day. It's like a more consistent version of Jund right now but lacking some of the overwhelming tools (PFire, BBE) that Jund has to make up for the lack of early consistency.

Just a quick snapshot: http://www.tcdecks.net/formato.php?format=Legacy

It's not news with UR, Miracles, and Patriot doing well, but if you look you'll see Sultai Delver at #4 in November for top finishes. I think we're just fine. Looking at all of those Sultai decks, it seems you can't go too wrong, because you'll see MB Stifle, TS, Pierces, Disfigures, and Dimir charms... all of varying quantities. That's great to see, because if it was only one list that was doing well then we'd all be playing it. Seems like you can really play to your meta or preference.

On an aside, is Flusterstorm worth and 1 or 2-of in an unknown meta (in SB obviously)? I don't own any, and have done OK with Pierces, but curious what others think. Seems Flusterstorm is a 1 or 2-of in a lot of these lists, unless the New Jersey area is known for combo/storm?

[btm10]

The definition of past prime is when you're just a contender. UWR Stoneblade/Delver is a better list right now and markedly so. Miracles is a better list and again it's not really close.

I don't see BUG's decline as particularly bad. We're in about the same place RUG Canadian is in. The difference is that RUG Canadian was obviously there at the start of the GP so very few people played it.

Think about what the Treasure Cruise meta did. It promoted hasty creatures and lowered the value of the cards people had in hand in the process. It made discard less valuable overall. It made red more valuable in the overall meta and black much less valuable. Then inside of that it gave people disincentives to use assets other than Treasure Cruise that depended on the graveyard.

Another way to look at the Treasure Cruise meta is that it made graveyards valuable to all blue lists, not just the lists like RUG and BUG that were going to use them for well-defined but narrow purposes. Not surprisingly this created much more value in other blue lists while providing only marginally more value in BUG and virtually no value in RUG.

BUG is in decline because other lists are on the rise. That's just the way it works. Sticking with a good list as others rise is fine. You do need to find a way to adjust some or it's going to hurt.

Reading this, I can't help but think that you haven't either played in a large event recently or that your playtesting is somehow skewed. UR is favorable because they struggle against Goyf and multiple Wastelands and get wrecked by Golgari Charm and Disfigure postboard. They may get to Cruise more, but our Cruises are objectively more powerful. Miracles has, if anything, become an even better matchup for BUG post-Cruise. Seriously; if you're consistently losing to Miracles, you're doing something wrong or playing against a massive skill differential.

If the deck wasn't well positioned, I'd say it's time to pack it in and pick up something else. It isn't that time yet.


In what way is 16th place in a gigantor tourney past its prime? We just need to adapt. Stifle seems good again. Krosan Grip into the board as at least a one off.

As an aside. Convince me that Sylvan Library belongs in the board. I just don't see it as necessary with treasure cruise. I am more than welcome to being wrong.

Sylvan is excellent against any control/midrange strategy, especially against decks like Miracles and UWx Blade that don't put much pressure on your life total. I've had a lot of success using it in the mirror and against Sneak and Show as well.


Just a quick snapshot: http://www.tcdecks.net/formato.php?format=Legacy

It's not news with UR, Miracles, and Patriot doing well, but if you look you'll see Sultai Delver at #4 in November for top finishes. I think we're just fine. Looking at all of those Sultai decks, it seems you can't go too wrong, because you'll see MB Stifle, TS, Pierces, Disfigures, and Dimir charms... all of varying quantities. That's great to see, because if it was only one list that was doing well then we'd all be playing it. Seems like you can really play to your meta or preference.

On an aside, is Flusterstorm worth and 1 or 2-of in an unknown meta (in SB obviously)? I don't own any, and have done OK with Pierces, but curious what others think. Seems Flusterstorm is a 1 or 2-of in a lot of these lists, unless the New Jersey area is known for combo/storm?

One last point on the shifted meta: UR Delver has moved a lot of people onto it because it's the best deck at casting Treasure Cruise - look at the number of UR Delver tops vs. Miracles (the second highest-placing deck) - it's 27 vs. 14, with UWR Delver and BUG Delver at 10 each. A non-trivial component in the apparent fall-off in BUG is people trying out the new deck rather than this one being bad. At SCG Columbus, the few BUG players who showed up were disproportionately present at the top tables through round 8. I can't comment on round 9 because I was in an off-camera feature match and couldn't see anyone but my opponent, but there were two other BUG Delver players just in my group who both finished in the top 64 (I think one was 20-something and one was 33).

I'm still not a huge Flusterstorm fan because it can't hit things like Blood Moon, although we're seeing less of that. It's just such a beating that being able to counter it is a high priority. Pierce is just broader, so I'm going to stick with it. Hitting things like hardcast Batterskulls and Jittes is becoming more important as well.

[iostream]

Just wanted to chime in to reinforce the points being made that BUG is far from being a suboptimal choice in the new metagame. Things have shifted a bit, but it's nothing we can't adapt to.

At the GP, I punted all weekend, sad to say. On Friday, I punted my round-of-8 match in a grinder, and on Saturday, I punted early on and was dead for Day 2 by round 6. At the Sunday Super Series, I tightened up a bit, but still only went 7-3, which was good for Top 64, but one of my losses was definitely due to my own errors. Overall, I really liked the deck and how it plays. I'm pretty sure I was just having a bad weekend, and I don't see any reason to bail on the deck.

My lists at the GP and the Super Series were somewhat nonstandard. At the GP, I ran:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Sideboard:
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hydroblast
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique

The wonky countermagic suite worked out fantastically, actually. Daze is dead really fast now for reasons which have been explained many times before, so I cut a couple and replaced them with slightly harder countermagic. As phazonmutant suggested, 2 Daze was actually just fine. I was happy many times to have access to the effect, and it didn't clog up my draws nearly as much in the late game. 3 Spell Pierce was really good, but a little heavy-handed from a metagaming perspective, as it makes the creature-heavy matchups a bit awkward. I want to give a special shoutout to the singleton Counterspell, which saved my ass countless times over the weekend. It does the usual BUG thing of trading mana efficiency for flexibility. It accomplished what I imagine Pyroblast accomplishes in the other Delver decks, but is just randomly relevant in other ways a lot of the time. If you haven't tried it out, you should.

Shaving a Wasteland was good - there are just too many decks running too many basics right now. Just like Daze, the effect can be powerful, but also like Daze, it does cause you to effectively miss your land drop, which is really a drawback because you want to cast the stuff you Cruise for ASAP.

I got cold feet about Tarmogoyf in Delve mirrors due to chatter from the pros online, which is why I ran the 3/2 split. That was a mistake. Besides Goyf being more or less the same size as before TC, costing 2 instead of 3 is a huge advantage. To be clear, TNN is a great, difficult-to-remove threat in a world of grindy Stoneblade decks, and I definitely want access to at least one, but shaving Goyf is not the way to go about adding a second one.

DTT and Golgari Charm were consistently underwhelming. I just never had enough time to take advantage of DTT, even in the slow combo matchups. As for Golgari Charm, I ran it maindeck because I figured it would have the potential to do something meaningful in most matchups, and it was well positioned versus YP Elemental tokens. This was mostly true, but it's impact was definitely not worth an entire card against most of the non-red, non-tribal decks. I think it taught me that I sideboard it in too often in general.

At the Super Series, my friend insisted I give Dimir Charm, which I have never been happy with, another chance, so I made the following changes to the maindeck:

+1 Preordain
+1 Dimir Charm
+1 Treasure Cruise
+1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Golgari Charm
-1 Dig Through Time
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 True-Name-Nemesis

and I left the sideboard the same. The Preordain was there just to try it out since one of the matches I played in the GP was against the mirror, and he had a Preordain that he said was alright for him. As advertised, it was fine, nothing special. I imagine there can be stronger choices, though, and I obviously didn't play enough matches to really decide if 9 versus 8 cantrips is right. Dimir Charm was much the same way: pretty mediocre. Definitely more impactful, more often than Golgari Charm, but I was still not super happy with it.

Anyway, going forward, I feel like the deck is still solid up to the last few cards. I would run this list back but try some other stuff in the place of the 1 Preordain, 1 Disfigure, and 1 Dimir Charm. Still no idea what kind of effects the deck needs the most.

As for the sideboard, everything was awesome except for the Pithing Needle and the Surgical Extraction. Both felt a little underpowered, even though they were generally useful. Perhaps the Needle should just be the second Grip in a world where Stoneforge Mystic is super-popular, and the Surgical Extraction could be a Tormod's Crypt or maybe just some more removal.

I should mention that in 22 matches over 3 days, I never played against UR Delver even once. So all my metagaming worrying was kind of for naught.

[FoolofaTook]

Reading this, I can't help but think that you haven't either played in a large event recently or that your playtesting is somehow skewed. UR is favorable because they struggle against Goyf and multiple Wastelands and get wrecked by Golgari Charm and Disfigure postboard. They may get to Cruise more, but our Cruises are objectively more powerful.

It's not UR Delver. We own UR Delver in a big way. It's UWR that is flatout better right now and they don't struggle against Goyf, they plow it, they don't struggle against Wastelands, they have basics in the mix. Miracles is not a hard matchup but it has a much better matchup against a lot of the format than we do.

I noticed in the month leading up to the GP that the lists giving me the most trouble were Elves and various Stoneblade builds. Elves was just too fast to beat game one and games two and three came down to how lucky I was with specific hate in hand and whether I had to mull aggressively. Overall it was an unfavored matchup.

Stoneblade was just a bad matchup. They had ubiquitous answers to all our threats and they also had targeted discard and counters to maintain control of the flow of play. Their threat base was better than ours also because they got 2-for-1 from Stoneforge Mystic, lack of interactivity with True-Name Nemesis and the equipment to make the lack of interactivity really dangerous. UWR Stoneblade is even stronger against us because they can still manage all our threats and they also have the reach of Lightning Bolts and the potential for main list Pyroblasts as well.

It's not that BUG Delver is bad right now. It's that other things are objectively better and that was not the case two months ago.

[Manipulato]

We got kicked down in the established deck`s section :cry:

[JanoschEausH]

We got kicked down in the established deck`s section :cry:

Yeah, but I think it was an error. TA should be in DtB and Shardless BUG should be established (as Nihil Credo said in his analysis). He just missklicked I guess.

[btm10]

It's not UR Delver. We own UR Delver in a big way. It's UWR that is flatout better right now and they don't struggle against Goyf, they plow it, they don't struggle against Wastelands, they have basics in the mix. Miracles is not a hard matchup but it has a much better matchup against a lot of the format than we do.

Stoneblade was just a bad matchup. They had ubiquitous answers to all our threats and they also had targeted discard and counters to maintain control of the flow of play. Their threat base was better than ours also because they got 2-for-1 from Stoneforge Mystic, lack of interactivity with True-Name Nemesis and the equipment to make the lack of interactivity really dangerous. UWR Stoneblade is even stronger against us because they can still manage all our threats and they also have the reach of Lightning Bolts and the potential for main list Pyroblasts as well.

It's not that BUG Delver is bad right now. It's that other things are objectively better and that was not the case two months ago.

I'm not going to continue to argue this with you because my testing continues to produce results to the contrary. I may make changes to my list, and I'm certainly going to be playtesting some of the oddball decks from GPNJ (Landstill and Grixis Control both look like they're worth putting time into), but BUG Delver will remain my deck for large events until testing suggests that I'm substantially better served by playing something else.

The sheer quantity of UR Delver decks that people are playing right now should be reason enough to stick with BUG Delver; our close and maybe unfavorable matchup against Stoneblade can be addressed with proper sideboarding and just being better players than them. Feel free to stop playing the deck, but I find your analysis deeply flawed.

[Fallacy]

Moving on to some constructive topics about the deck :)

What do you guys think about going down to 18 land, seems pretty tight, especially since we pack 4 Wasteland? I saw Noah Cohen did, but most it seems are running 19 lands. btm10, seems like you've got a pretty good grasp on our updated deck, in your playtesting have you found 18 or 19 preferred? In the Columbus tourney, did you see a lot of Wasteland? Our mana curve certainly has lowered, as all my Lily's and SB Jace are adios, not to mention Tombstalkers, too.

[Thorhammer]

Moving on to some constructive topics about the deck :)

What do you guys think about going down to 18 land, seems pretty tight, especially since we pack 4 Wasteland? I saw Noah Cohen did, but most it seems are running 19 lands. btm10, seems like you've got a pretty good grasp on our updated deck, in your playtesting have you found 18 or 19 preferred? In the Columbus tourney, did you see a lot of Wasteland? Our mana curve certainly has lowered, as all my Lily's and SB Jace are adios, not to mention Tombstalkers, too.

I think I'm gonna try the 18 land build. With delver variants moving towards no wasteland I think it's worth it. I was already cutting down on lands in match ups like miracles so I think we can get away with it. Creeping Tar Pit in the board in case we come up against a wasteland deck.

[btm10]

Moving on to some constructive topics about the deck :)

What do you guys think about going down to 18 land, seems pretty tight, especially since we pack 4 Wasteland? I saw Noah Cohen did, but most it seems are running 19 lands. btm10, seems like you've got a pretty good grasp on our updated deck, in your playtesting have you found 18 or 19 preferred? In the Columbus tourney, did you see a lot of Wasteland? Our mana curve certainly has lowered, as all my Lily's and SB Jace are adios, not to mention Tombstalkers, too.

I saw a lot of Wasteland because I played two Loam decks and two BUG mirrors. Aside from that, I didn't see much. I definitely hesitate to draw conclusions like "how much Wasteland do we expect?" from one person's tournament experience. My current list is the Columbus list, with the following (MD) changes:

-2 Hymn
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Dimir Charm
-1 Daze
-1 Bayou

+3 Thoughtseize
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Tropical Island
+1 True-Name Nemesis

I may bring the Bayou back and drop a Wasteland, and TNN and Thoughtseize #3 are both on probation for now.


I think I'm gonna try the 18 land build. With delver variants moving towards no wasteland I think it's worth it. I was already cutting down on lands in match ups like miracles so I think we can get away with it. Creeping Tar Pit in the board in case we come up against a wasteland deck.

Definitely post how you do. Against non-Legends Miracles I drop Wastelands a lot, but I leave 1-3 in against the Legend builds because Wastelanding Karakas is a big deal there. Against Miracles in particular, I don't usually have a problem casting even 3 or 4 mana spells off of 15-18 lands.

[Nihil Credo]

Sorry for the accidental demotion, everybody :) Moving threads back and forth is basically muscle memory at this point ("deck"-tab-tab-tab-"former "-tab-tab-Enter), so I didn't realise I had selected the wrong BUG thread. Fixed now.

[Asthereal]

Sorry for the accidental demotion, everybody :) Moving threads back and forth is basically muscle memory at this point ("deck"-tab-tab-tab-"former "-tab-tab-Enter), so I didn't realise I had selected the wrong BUG thread. Fixed now.
Oh LOL so we are still deck to beat! :cool:
I had sent Zilla a PM to tell him to demote the old thread as well, since it was still up in DTB while this one was already demoted. And it makes sense. People play UR and UWR Delver now mostly. But good to see we are back! :smile:

Back on topic: I don't believe in an 18 land list. With my 19 land list I already very often could not find a land, so I'm definitely not going down to 18. I'm not willing to mull even more than I did last tourney. Also, if you run 18 lands, I think you need Stifle to protect yourself. Canadian has run 18 lands forever, but always with Stifle helping out to protect against opposing Wastelands. Just my two cents. :wink:

[Manipulato]

Great to be in the DtB section again:smile:

I think in a Hymn/Lili version 20 lands are a must ( I had to learn that the hard way :wink:). No matter if we are playing 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm 3 TC.

In a TS/Disfigure/Charm version I think 19 lands are absolutley fine, but going down to 18 is very risky. I we transform the deck into a "Canadian" version, then maybe yes but only with 3-4 stifles.

Greetings

[nossirag]

I just discovered that Bert Phillips had a undefeated day 1 at the GP with this list:

Number Card Name
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm


Number Card Name
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island


Total Number of cards in main deck: 60
Sideboard

Number Card Name
1 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm

Number Card Name
1 Hydroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Notion Thief
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sylvan Library

Total Number of cards in sideboard: 15

[YamiJoey]

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time
3 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

My next build is this, but -1 Pierce, +1 Goyf, and probably cutting a Charm for a second Disfigure. Charm seems marginally worse against the X/2's. I was also looking at just playing 3 Digs instead of 4 Delve cards, but that's neither here nor there at this point. I also still want 4 Wastelands, I think.

Goyf is still good against UWR. It blocks well, and it's Swords or die to it. It's no TNN, but it stunts Batterskull almost as well. Making a 4/5 in front of it is generally good enough. You do have to be carefull of Bolts, but it's easy enough. It's also just a cheap threat, and that's important right now. Get on the board and attack them before they overpower you with 'Skulls, or manage to get hits in with Swords. Thoughtseize takes out Batterskull really well. Against UR, I like double Disfigure main. It kills everything very cheaply. Less Delve Spells means more early interaction, and Dig gives you the ability to stay open with Decays, and draw more useful interaction instead of crap later on.

[Fallacy]

Since Team has shifted away in some part from Hymns and Lily's, what are peoples takes on turn sequencing the early turns for Game 1 versus an unknown opponent? Assume we're on the play. Pre-Cruise era I would almost always run a DRS T1 if possible to T2 Hymn with 1 mana left for Delver/Thoughtseize or play Lily. Are people finding that running a DRS or Delver T1 is still best bet, or just play land and pass turn (ability to BS, Pierce, Disfigure, Stifle on opponents turn)?

Pre-Cruise era if I didn't have a DRS in my opener and had a Thoughtseize that would be my next auto first play to gain some info and possible card advantage. I'm wondering if we're better served to hold off on TS until T2+ in the event we're playing a blade deck, to allow them to search out the equipment? Although, holding off on a T1 TS could allow a multitude of cards to come down, like SDT...

I would like to expand this to both "main" deck variations, being 1) Thoughtseize plus a combination of Pierce/Disfigure, and 2) Stifle suite plus Pierce. For example, is it proper to play reactionary T1 with a Stifle, or still run out a DRS?

I haven't played enough games as of lately, so I'd be curious to see what others think. I do miss having 14-16 threats (typical 12 + 2 Tombstalker + 2 Lily's :smile:)...

[FoolofaTook]

On the play Delver, DRS or Ponder with Daze in hand, hold up with Stifle or Spell Pierce in hand, break the tie based on opponent if you somehow have the Merry Christmas draw with both options.

On the draw you have to play something if you have it. You're already behind in tempo and unless you know your opponent very well or you know he is on Storm or something you have to keep up with the Joneses.

[Borealis]

Went 6-3 at GP Edison with the following list:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 TNN

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Treasure Cruise

3 Daze
4 FOW
1 Spell Pierce

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize

9 Fetches
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
1 Darkblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle

A brief summary of the rounds:

Round 1, Goblins (Win 2-1)

In the first game he had a slow start and I had removal and counters for his threats. Things got awkward when I dazed a Goblin Matron through his Cavern, but we both missed it until my next main phase had already started. Judge gave us both warnings, but he still lost the Matron, which was obviously good for me but I felt bad. He resolved a second matron, but was too far behind to catch up at that point. I'm pretty sure I had the game locked up either way, but he would have been much more in it if the first tutor resolved.

Game 2 he had vials and multiple ringleaders, but more importantly I walked right into a Pyrokenesis on both my threats (Delver/DRS) which put me way out of the game. In game 3, he tried the Pyro play again, but this time I had the Force, and he died a few turns later to Nemesis + Delver.

Round 2, Reanimator (Win 2-0)

This was probably the most fun match I had all day, and simultaneously the least fun for my opponent. In both games I drew early Thoughtseizes to strip away his discard outlets, leaving him with Reanimate spells and dudes only. I won pretty quickly in the first game before he could find much action. In game 2, I opened with a hand of all blue spells plus a single Trop, and after a moment's hesitation I kept it on the draw. Ponder found me the 2nd land, and I just sat there for several turns holding up countermagic. Eventually I found a Thoughtseize, and then a Grafdigger's Cage, and then another Seize, and finally a DRS to slowly eat away at his life total. He had Needle for DRS so I was simply attacking for one until I found one of the Decays I had left in the deck. Vendilion Clique locked it up, as he was just sitting on all Reanimate spells to my hand of triple Force + soft counters. He was visibly angry about his decks' performance and the loss, but man was I having a fun time underneath my unusually composed exterior.

Round 3, BURG Delver w/ Stifle (Lose 0-2)

Stifle is king in the mirror match, and all his threats and answers are cheaper than mine. Not having the 3rd Disfigure really hurt here, as did him getting Deathrite online before me every single time. I played into his Stifles more than once, but had little choice the last time. This match made me wish I was still playing Stifle myself, or at least Lightning Bolt, as both those cards really got him an edge. Had I drawn enough lands, I likely would have overpowered him with Nemesi/Goyfs and the unconditional Decays, but I could never get enough mana together to compete. I feel I partly punted this match, and if I could go back and play it out again I would love to see where my mistakes were. This was a critical loss.

Round 4, U/G Infect (Win 2-1)

While this guy wasn't Tom Ross, I was still very fearful of his deck. At first I felt good about the matchup, but I quickly realized that many of his threats blank my answers, and it's very easy for them to play through or around your interaction. Luckily, I remembered some of the rules of engagement with Infect from Modern, even if I didn't adhere to them always. I don't recall the games too specifically, but they were all close. I think I won the first one by running him out of threats and getting my own Delver online quickly enough to close it out. I don't really remember game 2 that much, but he got me. In game 3, I was pretty light on interaction, but he had a slowish start, so it was okay for awhile. I traded removal for his threats, and then I used my last FOW to stop his final creature from entering play, but he eventually drew into Nexi and started pinging me. I had a Delver and a TNN picking away at him, but he also drew into a Maze of Ith to keep my Delver at bay. I kept swinging, forcing him to use the Maze, and he kept giving me back a flying blocker while TNN got in for 3. Eventually, I drew a Wasteland and had 4 good targets: the 2 Inkmoths, the Maze, or his Trop. I wasted his Trop, forcing him out of colored mana, and cutting him off of Invigorate as well. Once I did that, there was little he could do, and TNN took him out a few turns later. I was pretty proud of my play in this match, but to be honest he had me pretty close to dead with any number of good draws on his end: I was out of gas quite early in that last game.

Round 5, RUG Delver w/ Goyf, Pyro, and Jitte maindeck (Lose 0-2)

Once again, I lost a mirror match, and Just like that, I'm on the bubble halfway through the day. I can't remember if he had Stifle as well, but it was more the maindeck Jittes and efficiency of Bolts that got me. While I felt somewhat powerless against the BURG deck, this match was probably very winnable if I played better. He mulled to 5 game 1 but I somehow let him still win (he had a good hand and successfully resolved a Cruise, but still). In game 2, it was my turn to mull to 5. I also pulled of a Treasure Cruise, but it didn't matter. But the time I recovered, he had an active Jitte, and it was lights out. Hell, he had the thing equipped to a damn lavamancer, and I couldn't find a Goyf. This was certainly a winnable matchup though, and I kicked myself for not finding a way to push it to Game 3. These matches taught me I need more experience in the mirror, especially since I'm a RUG veteran, and maximizing the efficiency of your cards is a bit easier in those colors for me.

Round 6, Belcher (Win 2-0)

This was a short and sweet match, not much to say. I drew Thoughtseizes and had the Force both time he tried to go for it, and it was elementary sweeping up from there. He could have made 8ish Goblins in game 2, but opted for Belcher instead, which was likely a mistake. But I was ready to mulligan into FoW and/or Flusterstorm pretty aggressively if it came to a Game 3, and there's not much they can do against a counter-heavy hand. That said, check out this guy's story from SCG LA a few years ago for a truly amazing tournament report from the mind of a Belcher pilot. Totally off-point, but man can this guy write. This is EPIC: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20418-8th-at-SCG-LA-with-Belcher-and-undefeated-in-the-swiss-A-long-Report

Round 7, UR Delver (Win 2-1)

Rounds start to get fuzzy here. Not to much interesting to say either. My opponent didn't seem very enthusiastic in general, and had an overall air of dismay and disinterest about him, which probably didn't help his chances in this fight. That said, I'm pretty sure we are favored against UR unless they are Expert-level or above with the deck, as the lines you need to make to win are very difficult sometimes. I simply answered his dudes and resolved lots of threats. In the last game, I kept a slightly awkward 6-card hand of something like Goyf, Goyf, Goyf, Ponder, Trop, Waste, but knew that it had a high chance to win if I could get past turn 2. Sure enough, I ended the game with 3 Goyfs in play while he scrambled for an answer. He had some threat-light draws, but I still think we can handle UR Delver just fine. I haven't dropped a match to the deck yet, though maybe I need to test against some seriously competitive players to really know how this should go.

Round 8, Jund (Lose 0-2, aka DEAD)

It all comes crumbling down. I had still been pretty hopeful I could sweep the last 4 rounds, but as always I knew I could face a bad matchup or bad draws. Sure enough, Jund just crushed me. I had some decent draws, but nothing to compare with Pfire, Liliana, Bloodbraid, or Rabblemaster, and to top it off he out Deathrited me in both games. It's possible I sideboarded wrong, as I tried to keep up with his threats by siding into moar removal and took out some number of Forces and other countermagic, when in fact maybe I should have just tried to tempo him out. Without Stifle, it's hard to truly cut off their mana long enough to win via flipped Delver or unanswered Goyf/TNN, but perhaps it was the better line. I don't think it much mattered though, his hands were good and he had plenty of lands and threats both games. Shame to go out this way, but such is life.

Round 9, Death and Taxes (Win 2-0)

I had removal and Forces for his critical cards, and was able to play around the cards that matter the most. In the second game, I had two flipped Delvers and a TNN to his pair of Flickerwisps, and then drew a Disfigure to outmatch his blocking force. He had flickered my first Delver, but I cast the second one and then Brainstormed back a spell to flip them both on my next turn, which was a pretty sweet play I thought. In any case, what I assume is normally a tough matchup went really well for me here, and I happily ended the day on a good note.

By this point it was damn near midnight, and we scrambled to gather the crew and find a bar/restaurant that still served both Booze and Food after 11PM. Thank god for Champps in the Menlo Park mall!

All in all, it was a good tournament, but I deeply regret letting those two matches slip away from me. That's obviously the difference in a big event like this, I just wish for once I could overcome variance and my own misplays to get past the curve and into the red zone. Still, I only had about 2 weeks to prepare for the event, and I hadn't played Legacy since long before True-Name was spoiled. Having to adapt to a DRS/Abrupt Decay Delver deck rather than my usual Bolts/Goose strategy was certainly a challenge, so I'm pretty satisfied with the 6-3 finish. Hopefully I can get enough PW points this year to actually gain a bye at the next GP I attend. And hopefully I continue to play Legacy now, as this format is just way too good and I really missed it. I still dig Modern, but it's just not the same as Legacy.

Card and deck discussion will have to wait for another day, but overall I was pretty happy with the list. There are a few things I might change based on what I actually played. Not having 3 Disfigure felt like a mistake, and I didn't end up ever drawing the Darkblast, but I also never played against Elves or Maverick where the cards truly shines. I also felt outgunned against decks that had access to Pyroblast, as that card really does win the Cruise/Counterspell battles. By the same token I never faced matchups where Decay was truly a trump, such as vs. Miracles or Stax/Tezzeret decks. To recap, my opponents were:

Goblins, Reaninate, Delver, Infect, Delver, Belcher, Delver, Jund, Death/Taxes

So pretty close to what I would expect. Buncha Delver decks, a couple combo players, and some random stuff. Notably absent were the control decks, but I was happy not to have to play against Stoneblade or Miracles at all. I'm pretty sure we're not favored against most Blade decks, while we might have a slight edge on Miracles, but it's really close in both cases and the matchups are extremely grindy and challenging. After BBD's finish, I think it's time I let go of my refusal to play Blade in Legacy and actually pick up a playset of Stoneforge Mystic. She was my favorite white card for awhile until they spoiled Batterskull, and I probably need a copy for EDH anyway, so might as well pick them up. Plus, BBD's deck looks awesome, and I am tempted to try it. Of Course, that would mean I need to get Tundras too....

In review, I think BUG Delver is fine right now, and there are plenty of ways to build it. I will likely try out the Stifle build again, as well as the builds that cracked top 16. Actually, my list was only about 8 cards off of Noah Coen's 16th-place list, and our maindecks are functionally nearly identical. So maybe I'll tune closer to his maindeck. I also might try out a slightly bigger version with the BB discards spells too, as those are pretty fun, and I've always LOVED Hymn to Tourach. Who cares if it's "bad" right now right? I'm also pretty tempted by BUG Shardless, as I think it might actually be better than everyone might have thought at first glance.

Of course, that means I need to get some Jaces.....

[iostream]

My next build is this, but -1 Pierce, +1 Goyf, and probably cutting a Charm for a second Disfigure. Charm seems marginally worse against the X/2's. I was also looking at just playing 3 Digs instead of 4 Delve cards, but that's neither here nor there at this point. I also still want 4 Wastelands, I think.

Goyf is still good against UWR. It blocks well, and it's Swords or die to it. It's no TNN, but it stunts Batterskull almost as well. Making a 4/5 in front of it is generally good enough. You do have to be carefull of Bolts, but it's easy enough. It's also just a cheap threat, and that's important right now. Get on the board and attack them before they overpower you with 'Skulls, or manage to get hits in with Swords. Thoughtseize takes out Batterskull really well. Against UR, I like double Disfigure main. It kills everything very cheaply. Less Delve Spells means more early interaction, and Dig gives you the ability to stay open with Decays, and draw more useful interaction instead of crap later on.
Yeah, like I said in my writeup, 3 Goyf was a mistake. I want to reiterate, though, that I think cutting a Wasteland was quite good, and I'm surprised no one else seems to be interested in the idea. UR and BBD's deck play enough basics to neutralize it, and so do most of the popular combo choices now, and it doesn't synergize well with TC anyway. But I agree there are matchups where you want access to 4. I think putting the 4th Waste in the side could be good, especially since there were a couple slots in the side I was already unhappy with. Also, if the meta is starting to shift away from UR and Cruise Burn towards various blade decks and control decks, then TS in the main indeed sounds reasonable again. I would probably play the following if I had a tournament to go to this weekend:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure

2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
1 Wasteland
1 Darkblast
1 Disfigure
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Hydroblast
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
2 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique

[Borealis]

Yeah, like I said in my writeup, 3 Goyf was a mistake. I want to reiterate, though, that I think cutting a Wasteland was quite good, and I'm surprised no one else seems to be interested in the idea. UR and BBD's deck play enough basics to neutralize it, and so do most of the popular combo choices now, and it doesn't synergize well with TC anyway. But I agree there are matchups where you want access to 4. I think putting the 4th Waste in the side could be good, especially since there were a couple slots in the side I was already unhappy with. Also, if the meta is starting to shift away from UR and Cruise Burn towards various blade decks and control decks, then TS in the main indeed sounds reasonable again. I would probably play the following if I had a tournament to go to this weekend:

Not sure how I feel about cutting a Wasteland. For starters, it's generally a 4-of in all the 3-color Delver decks, mostly because it helps protect yourself against opposing Wastelands and helps justify the otherwise fragile manabase. Running 3 just seems noncommittal to me, and I could only get behind the idea if we were in Jeskai with equipment or had similarly expensive haymakers to resolve lategame, like Jace/Lily or TNN. As it was though, my experience with TNN has been that he is great when you can cast him, but can often be a liability at 3 mana, thus I'd be pretty wary to increase my mana curve.

I actually feel Wasteland is getting better right now, rather than worse, and Tom Ross said the same thing in his post-GP article. With opposing Delver decks shaving down on lands to increase their threat density, and with Delver in general still being 30% of the field, I actually think it might be correct to go back to Stifles and run the full set of Wastes. Even if you aren't Stifling people, I found it was extremely valuable to draw Wasteland in multiple scenarios, and it definitely helped me win at least 2 or 3 games at the GP, most notably against my Infect opponent. I'm not sure why you'd want to cut such an integral part of the deck.

Also, Wasteland does have synergy with Treasure Cruise: it's basically a free spell similar to Gix Probe. You take away their land while making your Cruise cheaper. There were several times where I needed a Wasteland to either help set up my own Cruise since my hand was mostly reactive, or to turn on DRS and/or Tarmogoyf by adding land back to the GY pile.

I'm pretty convinced now is not the time to cut Wasteland in this format, unless you are going a different direction entirely than classic Delver Tempo.

[iostream]

Not sure how I feel about cutting a Wasteland. For starters, it's generally a 4-of in all the 3-color Delver decks, mostly because it helps protect yourself against opposing Wastelands and helps justify the otherwise fragile manabase. Running 3 just seems noncommittal to me, and I could only get behind the idea if we were in Jeskai with equipment or had similarly expensive haymakers to resolve lategame, like Jace/Lily or TNN. As it was though, my experience with TNN has been that he is great when you can cast him, but can often be a liability at 3 mana, thus I'd be pretty wary to increase my mana curve.

I actually feel Wasteland is getting better right now, rather than worse, and Tom Ross said the same thing in his post-GP article. With opposing Delver decks shaving down on lands to increase their threat density, and with Delver in general still being 30% of the field, I actually think it might be correct to go back to Stifles and run the full set of Wastes. Even if you aren't Stifling people, I found it was extremely valuable to draw Wasteland in multiple scenarios, and it definitely helped me win at least 2 or 3 games at the GP, most notably against my Infect opponent. I'm not sure why you'd want to cut such an integral part of the deck.

Also, Wasteland does have synergy with Treasure Cruise: it's basically a free spell similar to Gix Probe. You take away their land while making your Cruise cheaper. There were several times where I needed a Wasteland to either help set up my own Cruise since my hand was mostly reactive, or to turn on DRS and/or Tarmogoyf by adding land back to the GY pile.

I'm pretty convinced now is not the time to cut Wasteland in this format, unless you are going a different direction entirely than classic Delver Tempo.I think there are two main points where I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of people here, and perhaps it will be good to enumerate them explicitly:

1) Even though UR and BBD's version of UWR are running only 16 and 18 lands, respectively, they run basics, and if they are wise enough to fetch them early, our Wastelands are bad/dead. Furthermore, they are running *more* mana sources than Delver decks of old, not less - old-school RUG used to run only 14 mana sources, for instance. The extra slots they freed up for gas appeared because they cut *Wasteland*, not actual mana sources! This is another reason why I think Wasteland is worse - you have a much lower probability of actually mana screwing them because they have more actual lands to draw into than before.

2) Wasteland has weak synergy with TC because it forces you to miss your land drops. Wasteland was taken out of UR in part because you want to be able to Cruise and cast the stuff you draw *the same turn you draw it*. Wasteland does the opposite - it denies you your own land drop for the turn. The late-game haymaker you are referring to in your first paragraph, in my mind, is Cruise itself. By replacing your fourth Waste with another mana source, you have a higher likelihood of being able to use your Cruises more effectively.

I should reiterate that I understand that it's a powerful effect and worth running. I think it's just not an automatic 4-of like it used to be. We have more things we want to do with our mana now because of Cruise.

[Borealis]

I think there are two main points where I seem to be disagreeing with the majority of people here, and perhaps it will be good to enumerate them explicitly:

1) Even though UR and BBD's version of UWR are running only 16 and 18 lands, respectively, they run basics, and if they are wise enough to fetch them early, our Wastelands are bad/dead. Furthermore, they are running *more* mana sources than Delver decks of old, not less - old-school RUG used to run only 14 mana sources, for instance. The extra slots they freed up for gas appeared because they cut *Wasteland*, not actual mana sources! This is another reason why I think Wasteland is worse - you have a much lower probability of actually mana screwing them because they have more actual lands to draw into than before.

2) Wasteland has weak synergy with TC because it forces you to miss your land drops. Wasteland was taken out of UR in part because you want to be able to Cruise and cast the stuff you draw *the same turn you draw it*. Wasteland does the opposite - it denies you your own land drop for the turn. The late-game haymaker you are referring to in your first paragraph, in my mind, is Cruise itself. By replacing your fourth Waste with another mana source, you have a higher likelihood of being able to use your Cruises more effectively.

I should reiterate that I understand that it's a powerful effect and worth running. I think it's just not an automatic 4-of like it used to be. We have more things we want to do with our mana now because of Cruise.

I'll counterpoint these both.

1) First, you are incorrect that a deck with merely 2 basics and 18 land completely nullify the usefulness of Wasteland. Certainly a deck like Miracles, which runs upwards of 6 basics, can mitigate the damage from Wasteland pretty well, but we are still bound to have games where the tempo play of "Delver, Waste you, Hold up Daze/Pierce/FoW/Stifle" still happens.

Against an 18 land deck though, I don't care how many basics they have, unless they are mono-colored, Wasteland will hurt. BBD's deck needs all 3 colors pretty readily by turn 2, and he is looking to resolve things like TNN, or Young Pyro + 1-drop, or Play/Equip Jitte in the midgame, so he is still very much susceptible to Wasteland. Also, He is a blue deck just like us, and needs to have blue mana open at all times if possible. Think of how bad it is when you have a Bayou and single Blue Dual in play, and you want to cast Delver + Cantrip, or need to play Cantrip but want to hold up Stifle/Pierce. BBD's deck is going to want options, and being forced to operate off of Plains + Island is very much going to restrict his ability to play his spells properly. Assuming he fetches both basics right away, you're in a very good position, as his 3rd land will always get hit by Waste, and you have more options and more of your colors than he does. It's a well-known truth that a couple basics doesn't actually beat Wasteland, and often you are better served just running MORE duals in the face of it, rather than less. If you decide to run Stifle, it gets even better against any 3-color deck, and doesn't hurt against straight U/R either. But point is, 2 basics out of 18 is only going to protect his mana source when he really needs to, such as with a Swords vs. Goyf or when Mystic's Vial is critical. The rest of the time, your Wastelands are still very live against his deck, and if they can't hit the basic they can generally still hit another land to turn on your soft counters and restrict his plays in general.

2) No one is telling you that you MUST use Wasteland, that's part of the appeal. And you aren't "missing" your land drop, you're simply using it as a Stone Rain. There is a difference. But the point is, if you need to cast Cruise for 3 mana and you have a Wasteland in hand as your land drop, it still casts Treasure Cruise as any other mana source would, and is actually better at casting it for a single Blue. It also helps cast Goyf, TNN, hardcast Daze/FoW, SB cards, etc. and pays for opposing Daze/Spell Pierce. And once again, if you're trying to cast a Treasure Cruise, there is no difference between paying for it with Wasteland's first (mana) ability or paying for it by exiling Wasteland after you used it's 2nd ability first.

I'm pretty sure I even made the play at one point of:
Me: "Pre-combat main, Waste your untapped blue dual"
Opp: "Float a blue"
Me: "Move to combat. Move to post-combat main. Play Treasure Cruise"
Opp: "....." (tapped out)

But I digress. The point is, Wasteland IS a mana source. The U/R Delver decks actually are running less mana sources than oldschool RUG Delver. Sure, they have more colored sources, but it's till 16 lands vs. 18 no matter how you slice it. It casts spells in almost every deck that runs it. And keep in mind those old RUG decks generally ran Stifle, which protects your own lands from opposing Wastes. Sure, there are times where it is effectively not a mana source, but that is easily mitigated by the times when it cuts off our opponent's mana, and often those situations are one and the same. The only time Wasteland is actually dead is against a mono-colored mana base with no utility lands, but I can't think of any of those decks off the top of my head. Goblins, Death and Taxes, Merfolk, Elves, Omni-Tell, Pox. They all have targets, even if they are minimal. Getting back to the point though, Wasteland is still a land. It still produces mana. It definitely still casts spells in our deck. And it's especially synergistic with Goyf, Deathrite Shaman, and Treasure Cruise.

And in this world of Treasure Cruises with the ever-present soft countermagic, Wasteland is still very potent.

[catmint]

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

[Fallacy]

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

Team continues to do well, despite the meta shift, just look at TCdecks to see the number of recent top finishes. We're all getting in playtesting with these various configurations (Stifles, TS, Pierce, etc.) and so far it seems we're highly competitive and have game against most MU's, including vs UR and Blade Decks.

[FoolofaTook]

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

This is all true and it has highlighted the basic fact that BUG is a turn slower to react in many cases than UWR, UWB, UR, RUG, etc. Disfigure does exist but it doesn't have the same utility that Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares do. Abrupt Decay is a better removal spell strictly as removal than Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares but it is a turn slower and it doesn't go to the face like bolt or remove all creatures without protection like StP.

Prior to the printing of Treasure Cruise I saw BUG, RUG and the tri-color Stoneblade lists as essentially equal in overall power with RUG being the aggro list, BUG smoothly transitioning from aggro to aggro control and the Stoneblade lists as more controlling than either of the former.

Then TC took RUG out of the picture and promoted UR, which is an even faster aggro list, and the Stoneblade lists largely switched to UWR which is a better configuration against us - bolts for Delver and DRS and the face in addition to plows for the Goyfs, pyroblasts to make our blue spells less effective, the same 2-for-1 with SFM that had always been there and TNN still there to invalidate much of our removal. This at the same time that UR had made discard and Liliana of the Veil less effective overall.

Basically UR got Treasure Cruise and another hasty creature that Disfigure is fairly weak against. Stoneblade got bolts, pyroblasts and Treasure Cruise. BUG got just Treasure Cruise and had some of it's best spells weakened in the process.

Right now if you're not playing UWR you're not in the best blue shell colors and it's not even close in that regard. When Treasure Cruise leaves the meta things may revert but if Dig Through Time doesn't leave at the same time then UWR will shift smoothly over to using that as it's card advantage/selection device. At that point it will still have most of the advantages against us that it currently features and DTT isn't going to slide into our lists as smoothly because we don't play as many basics as UWR and we're going to have a harder time keeping 2 blue on the board.

[Fallacy]

This is all true and it has highlighted the basic fact that BUG is a turn slower to react in many cases than UWR, UWB, UR, RUG, etc. Disfigure does exist but it doesn't have the same utility that Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares do. Abrupt Decay is a better removal spell strictly as removal than Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares but it is a turn slower and it doesn't go to the face like bolt or remove all creatures without protection like StP.

Prior to the printing of Treasure Cruise I saw BUG, RUG and the tri-color Stoneblade lists as essentially equal in overall power with RUG being the aggro list, BUG smoothly transitioning from aggro to aggro control and the Stoneblade lists as more controlling than either of the former.

Then TC took RUG out of the picture and promoted UR, which is an even faster aggro list, and the Stoneblade lists largely switched to UWR which is a better configuration against us - bolts for Delver and DRS and the face in addition to plows for the Goyfs, pyroblasts to make our blue spells less effective, the same 2-for-1 with SFM that had always been there and TNN still there to invalidate much of our removal. This at the same time that UR had made discard and Liliana of the Veil less effective overall.

Basically UR got Treasure Cruise and another hasty creature that Disfigure is fairly weak against. Stoneblade got bolts, pyroblasts and Treasure Cruise. BUG got just Treasure Cruise and had some of it's best spells weakened in the process.

Right now if you're not playing UWR you're not in the best blue shell colors and it's not even close in that regard. When Treasure Cruise leaves the meta things may revert but if Dig Through Time doesn't leave at the same time then UWR will shift smoothly over to using that as it's card advantage/selection device. At that point it will still have most of the advantages against us that it currently features and DTT isn't going to slide into our lists as smoothly because we don't play as many basics as UWR and we're going to have a harder time keeping 2 blue on the board.

No one is forcing anyone to play Team. Myself and others are sticking to it because we see the merits and success of it. Can we have some more constructive discussions, or post playtesting results versus all this nagging? Seriously, look back at the past few pages of the forum, half of it is complaining.

[Thorhammer]

I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.


-No access to red blast-- also not as vulnerable to it. Tarmogoyf and Deathrite laugh at main deck pyroblast
-Treasure cruise strengthens too us since we are drawing more removal spells
-Ancestral Recall > Tombstalker
-Mainphasing a Disfigure against a Swiftspear will either kill it or read "target opponent wastes a brainstorm and gain a life" Still a decent deal...
-Don't play dismember, play dimir charm
-Don't play hymn to tourach, play thought seize or stifle (both cards are also good against stone forge)
-Run less liliana and board her out when she isn't necessary


Brief answers I realize but I think if Stoneforge is the card that people will pick up then BUG might have a better matchup against it than other decks like UR. I personally am planning on running 4 disfigure between the main and side. Thoughtseize can deal with pesky tutored equipment. Dimir Charm is an Abrupt Decay/Envelop split card. My plan for beating Treasure Cruise fueled UR and Stoneblade decks is to kill everything they play. As John McLain said in Die Hard 4 "The plan- Find Lucy, Kill everyone else."

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I had an interesting idea, wanna hear your guys thoughts. Personally, I am sticking to the Stifle build. Gonna test a couple of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts as a win con, try to sneak them into playwith Stifle since its a situational card and would give it more versatility.

[btm10]

I had an interesting idea, wanna hear your guys thoughts. Personally, I am sticking to the Stifle build. Gonna test a couple of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts as a win con, try to sneak them into playwith Stifle since its a situational card and would give it more versatility.

That seems awful. Without Stifle, Dreadnought is a great big do-nothing.



I am curious as to how BUG is going to develop in the new meta.
In general I think the newest developments weaken the “old” BUG a lot.

- No access to red blast
- Treasure cruise strengthens other decks more than BUG
- How much better is drawing cards then a 5/5 flyer?
- Swiftspear/Pyromancer with many spells or SFM/Nemesis lategame is more powerful than drawing more deathrites, decays and tarmogofs…)

- Disfigure is much weaker due to not killing Swiftspear
- Dismember (paying 4 life) is much weaker due to U/R popularity
- Hymn to Tourach is a lot weaker due to decks being able to easier compensate with Treasure Cruise
- Liliana is much weaker due to swiftspear / burn

Recent TC results (as also discussed) in this thread indicate that adopting treasure seems to be the right thing and Thoughtseize/Stifle > ‘heavy black’ Hymn to tourach/Liliana.

Still, I feel there is no current “best build” and I don’t foresee it BUG getting back on top unless more innovation or meta shift happen.

I think Liliana is still a viable choice in the deck, but that Hymn is past its prime because it's slow and consumes a lot of mana for minimal return in the face of Crusie. I think that Ghastly Demise is a better MD removal spell than Disfigure, but I really don't like non-Decay, non-Dimir Charm removal in the maindeck right now. It's easier to hit a Swiftspear with Charm than it is to hit it with Disfigure, and Charm is, as I've said before, almost never dead. Moreover, I think that the medium-run post-Cruise meta is a pretty hospitable one for BUG. UR is really the starting point because of how cheap to build it is, and not only do we have a strong matchup against it, it encourages people to play things like Miracles (because Counterbalance/Top is insane against cmc1.dec), combo in general and ANT/TES (because UR cuts counters for more cantrips and burn in game 1), and Blade decks (because Batterskull and Jitte are very good against dork swarms and burn). While cutting down on the amount of Elves and D&T we're likely to see because of how good Forked Bolt is against them.

In short, UR will reduce the numbers of one of our worst matchups (Elves), and increase some of our best (UR itself and ANT/TES), while also likely increasing the number of Miracles decks (a favorable-to-even matchup) and Blade decks (highly build dependent, slightly favorable to slightly unfavorable) with the last two trends being mostly a wash. Add in the fact that there are fewer Blood Moons flying around and the fact that we're far and away the hardest to REB/Pyroblast of any Blue-based deck, and we're pretty well positioned. We may not Cruise as well as UR or UWR, but we have such a natively high power level that the Cruises we're casting are better than our opponents Cruises.

[Borealis]

I had an interesting idea, wanna hear your guys thoughts. Personally, I am sticking to the Stifle build. Gonna test a couple of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts as a win con, try to sneak them into playwith Stifle since its a situational card and would give it more versatility.

While I wouldn't call this idea awful by any stretch, I do think it might be trying to fit too much into the BUG shell. Typically in the past, Stifle-Nought builds have been base UR, sometimes with a green splash for Goyf. Red provides cheaper interaction, allowing you to leave up mana easier when necessary, while still letting you resolve Nought+Stifle with Pyroblast backup or similar, and the Bolts are pretty relevant for clearing blockers or finishing off your opponent alongside your 12/12 robot. It's probably still fine in the BUG shell as a "gotcha" mechanic to blow out your random local opponents, but I'm not sure I'd want to run it through a bigger tournament, even in the RUG shell. It's a sweet combo, but it has some serious weaknesses, and sets you up for an easy 2-for-1 once your opponent sees what's up. Still, I know for a fact that Bob Huang considered it for GP Jersey, so it has some obvious strengths too. If you're jamming Stifle anyway, I'd say go for it. I'm also intrigued, but don't see myself hunting down copies of Dreadnought just for a short-term experiment personally.

[FoolofaTook]

Phyrexian Dreadnought doesn't really work unless you have a lot of card advantage alongside it to make up for the inevitable 2-for-1's you lose with it.

The best dreadnought list ever was the UR version that a couple of people in the northeast were banging with regularly in the 2008 to 2010 meta. It was good because it had a bunch of ways to get card advantage, including Standstill, Counterbalance and Trinket Mage. It was good because it also packed a Trickbind or 2 in the list. It was good because it was simple and it did not have much vulnerability to mana disruption. It was in the mana disruption business itself.

Throwing dreadnought into BUG would require a re-imagining of the list. Otherwise it's just building in card disadvantage in exchange for the occasional free win.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Sorry guys for even bringing the idea up on the dreadnought. I appreciate the discussion, and realize the stupidity. Fool said it best "Otherwise it's just building in card disadvantage in exchange for the occasional free win con". I'm gonna continue to experiment with a single copy in the sideboard. See if it can steal me a game. Very easy to cast with a stifle, but harder to resolve.

+1 on updating the op, definitely over due

[Zodiac_Dragon]

What to you guys think is the better choice for a smaller tourment (50-70 players) in the current meta:

Stifle version vs. Thoughtseize version

Are there any guidelines or is it just personal preference? Because there are so many lists flying around at the moment. What do you guys think about a version which includes Stifle and TS? Maybe a 3/3 split.

Thanks in advance. :-)

[Asthereal]

What to you guys think is the better choice for a smaller tourment (50-70 players) in the current meta:

Stifle version vs. Thoughtseize version

Are there any guidelines or is it just personal preference? Because there are so many lists flying around at the moment. What do you guys think about a version which includes Stifle and TS? Maybe a 3/3 split.

Thanks in advance. :-)
Stifle is mostly good against grinders, who play fetch heavy Delver decks or Miracles.
In a smaller tournament, the randomness factor is higher. People play pet decks and weird stuff.
Against weird random stuff, Thoughtseize is pretty good (get that Trinisphere before it hits!).

So in a smaller tourney where you expect lots of different stuff, I'd recommend Thoughtseize.
If you know most players are highly competitive and play grinder style blue decks, I'd go for Stifle.

Edit: Personal note: I play Spell Pierce instead of those two. But you didn't ask about that. :cool:

[FoolofaTook]

Stifle is mostly good against grinders, who play fetch heavy Delver decks or Miracles.
In a smaller tournament, the randomness factor is higher. People play pet decks and weird stuff.
Against weird random stuff, Thoughtseize is pretty good (get that Trinisphere before it hits!).

So in a smaller tourney where you expect lots of different stuff, I'd recommend Thoughtseize.
If you know most players are highly competitive and play grinder style blue decks, I'd go for Stifle.

Edit: Personal note: I play Spell Pierce instead of those two. But you didn't ask about that. :cool:

This is the right angle to take on the TS vs Stifle debate. TS really punishes non-optimized lists. Stifle is better against the highly focused ones. Neither card is optimal in today's meta and finding the right play set to put in the slot is what BUG needs to do right now.

DRS and Abrupt Decay are what the black splash is for. Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip in the side alongside those two in the main is why we play green. Golgari Charm in the SB combines both splashes.

So right now the 12 cards that define BUG in the meta are DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf. We need to find at least 4 really strong cards that play alongside those 12 to keep up with Stoneforge Mystic, Jitte - Batterskull - Sword, Young Pyromancer, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Pyroblast. Those are the 20-odd spells that define the UWR shell right now. They're collectively better than DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf with a wider range of applications and less dead draw late.

In the old meta of August we also had power in the form of Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil in the list but the new meta has made both of those cards less good.

[btm10]

This is the right angle to take on the TS vs Stifle debate. TS really punishes non-optimized lists. Stifle is better against the highly focused ones. Neither card is optimal in today's meta and finding the right play set to put in the slot is what BUG needs to do right now.



I think both cards are fine in the current meta, but you need to be conscious of how you're positioning your deck when you choose which to run. Thoughtseize means you're trying to out-grind Blade decks and Miracles. Stifle means you're all-in on the tempo plan. Both work, but they're going to dictate other choices.



DRS and Abrupt Decay are what the black splash is for.


Both black and green are there for both DRS and Decay. The deck, indeed BGx as a player in the meta, exists largely because of DRS and Decay.




Tarmogoyf and Krosan Grip in the side alongside those two in the main is why we play green. Golgari Charm in the SB combines both splashes.


I agree on Goyf, though Grip is less important than Golgari Charm and Sylvan Library. You could get the same result as Grip if you were splashing white for Disenchant; being able to destroy Top is a nice bonus that pushes us to Grip over Naturalize. This is a very minor point.



So right now the 12 cards that define BUG in the meta are DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf. We need to find at least 4 really strong cards that play alongside those 12 to keep up with Stoneforge Mystic, Jitte - Batterskull - Sword, Young Pyromancer, Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Pyroblast. Those are the 20-odd spells that define the UWR shell right now. They're collectively better than DRS, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf with a wider range of applications and less dead draw late.


Here's where I think we're still disagreeing. The SFM package alongside Young Pyromancer and Bolt+Plow is good, but it's not head and shoulders above BUG right now. I'm also not sure what you mean by less of a dead draw late. Pyromancer takes multiple spells (and frequently a turn) to get going, and a late 'mancer out of UWR Blade is either going to be past the point of no return for us (i.e., we're already beaten) or just a stalling tactic to chump block Tarmogoyf until they can find removal for it, a stalling tactic that's not likely to be effective because we also have Treasure Cruise (so the odds that Peezy is coming down when we're empty handed are low). In contrast, a late Tarmogoyf just shows up as a 4/5 and requires no further setup. Postboard we've got additional removal for their artifacts (so you usually only care about Decaying Pyromancers, non-Batterskull equiment, and the occasional Counterbalance) additional generic creature removal (Disfigure), and Golgari Charm for mopping up Elemental tokens or for countering Supreme Verdict. I've also started testing Divert out of the board and have been happy with it.

[Asthereal]

... though Grip is less important than Golgari Charm and Sylvan Library. You could get the same result as Grip if you were splashing white for Disenchant; being able to destroy Top is a nice bonus that pushes us to Grip over Naturalize. This is a very minor point.
Actually, Batterskull for me is the major reason to want Grip over Naturalize.

[FoolofaTook]

Actually, Batterskull for me is the major reason to want Grip over Naturalize.

The order for me is Sensei's Divining Top, Batterskull, Counterbalance, Umezawa's Jitte and then the Swords. That's where Krosan Grip prevents mid-game blowouts. It's also one of the better cards against random lists which tend to feature more enchantments and artifacts than optimized lists. Abrupt Decay manages Counterbalance, Jitte - albeit without preventing counter activations of various sorts and it handles the Swords. Having decay 5 and maybe 6 in those matchups is fine.

Against Miracles I tune out a couple of my decays and tune in a couple of grips. That's because Miracles lists tend to tune out Counterbalance once they see BGx. Having grip against top is wonderful. Still having 4 ways to ditch Rest in Peace is good too. Playing against Miracles is a whole different experience when they don't have a top on the table.

Against things like D&T and Stoneblade you want all your artifact removal in the list. Even then it isn't enough some times but having 6 pieces of removal for things like vials, Batterskull and various equipment is a great thing. Having 4 of them take out a creature also is really good.

[Zodiac_Dragon]

Thanks to all of you, regarding your thoughts. :)


Edit: Personal note: I play Spell Pierce instead of those two. But you didn't ask about that. :cool:

How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table. :cool:

[exallium]

Thanks to all of you, regarding your thoughts. :)



How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table. :cool:

My "go to" number of pierces has always been 3 in the 75, usually all 3 in the sideboard.

[Asthereal]

How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table. :cool:
I have been running the full set of four in my 75 for a while now. Current setup is 3 main and the last one side. I know many here feel Fluster and Envelop are often better, but Pierce is the only one that is always good. Additionally I tend to side out Dazes often when I am on the draw, and the sideboard Pierces I run just somehow always find their way into my deck. I really like my Pierces.

Last tourney I went for blue overload with:
MAIN 4x Force, 4x Daze, 3x Pierce
SIDE 1x Pierce, 2x Fluster, 2x Envelop
It felt really strong all tourney. I didn't extensively test it though.

So there's my personal opinion. :smile:

[btm10]

Thanks to all of you, regarding your thoughts. :)



How many SP did you play? I would play a couple of SP in addition to Stifle or TS because it hits so many cards we won't see on the table. :cool:

Right now I'm on 2 Pierce/3 Thoughtseize/1 Dimir Charm main, though the 3rd Thoughtseize could easily be yhe second Dimir Charm.

[jnosrati]

Thoughts on the death's shadow suicide bug deck that just got featured at scg? I expect that most people will just say it's bad, but lets just assume its good for a sec and discuss its +/-

[btm10]

I think it's an interesting idea. At first glance, feel like it's better with something like Berserk to give it trample to go over the top. In Pyromancer land I don't like it as much (without Trample) because it's so easy to chump.

[FoolofaTook]

I think it's an interesting idea. At first glance, feel like it's better with something like Berserk to give it trample to go over the top. In Pyromancer land I don't like it as much (without Trample) because it's so easy to chump.

If you're going to do something like this why wouldn't you just go the Stiflenought route? Stifle is already useful in the build in other ways and Death's Shadow is no more useful than Phyrexian Dreadnought in most cases and less useful in more than a few.

I don't think Stiflenought would be good, btw, just that Death's Shadow is a bad card and adding Berserk to make it good seems like it's even worse than Stiflenought.

[btm10]

If you're going to do something like this why wouldn't you just go the Stiflenought route? Stifle is already useful in the build in other ways and Death's Shadow is no more useful than Phyrexian Dreadnought in most cases and less useful in more than a few.

I don't think Stiflenought would be good, btw, just that Death's Shadow is a bad card and adding Berserk to make it good seems like it's even worse than Stiflenought.

Shadow has several advantages over Dreadnought, the most obvious being that it doesn't require a two-card combo to do anything, it just requires that you take (incremental) damage, which is going to happen in almost any matchups anyway. Ultimately, the card is probably suboptimal, but its clearly not beyond consideration. I definitely don't understand or agree with all of the deck construction decisions that were made - Scavenging Ooze looks strange, especially given that Fornace seems to have built his deck to optimize Shadow - but I'm more likely to write off 'nought than I am Death's Shadow.

[KobeBryan]

why not just play rancor in this case instead of berserk

[btm10]

why not just play rancor in this case instead of berserk

Rancor doesn't flip Delver, for starters.

Don't fixate on Berserk. The specific card isn't important. My issue with Death's Shadow is that it doesn't have evasion and doesn't represent much of a threat unless you're very nearly dead.

[Asthereal]

I've tried to make Death's Shadow work. It just doesn't. Especially in an environment where Lightning Bolt is played a lot. If you want cheap conditional beaters, I'd recommend you first look at Hidden Gibbons and Hidden Herd. Both have no serious drawback concerning your own deckbuilding, so they should be easy to fit into any UBG list.

[jake556]

This new UWR Acendency deck is a pain. It is everywhere on MODO, I run the Stifle version most of the time but Stifle/Wasteland combo just fuels there Cruises. You have to have an early threat that sticks or else it is GG. Plus dealing with Fatestitcher is limited to Disfigure/Grafdiggers Cage. They draw a ridiculous amount of cards and quickly out pace you. And when you are ready to cruise it feels almost too late. Anyone else have experience with this MU? With it being the "new" thing it might be hear to stay.

[FoolofaTook]

Don't fixate on Berserk. The specific card isn't important. My issue with Death's Shadow is that it doesn't have evasion and doesn't represent much of a threat unless you're very nearly dead.

Exactly. If you have some weird combo that can make a 9/9 DS early and then exploit it for the win, well that's a weird combo no doubt but it's happening in a context that might mean something in most Legacy games. With Stiflenought you have a similarly bad set of dependencies in this meta (Abrupt Decay does DS just as surely as it does dreadnought after you've invested whatever else in either of them) but you can also lay out a 12/12 trampler on turn 2 now and then with enough cover for it that all the opponent can do is draw twice and scoop.

[btm10]

This new UWR Acendency deck is a pain. It is everywhere on MODO, I run the Stifle version most of the time but Stifle/Wasteland combo just fuels there Cruises. You have to have an early threat that sticks or else it is GG. Plus dealing with Fatestitcher is limited to Disfigure/Grafdiggers Cage. They draw a ridiculous amount of cards and quickly out pace you. And when you are ready to cruise it feels almost too late. Anyone else have experience with this MU? With it being the "new" thing it might be hear to stay.

The Thoughtseize build is much harder to most forms of combo, but I imagine that Stifle would be crazy against Ascendancy - they've got tons of relevant activated and triggered abilities, Fatestitcher is vulnerable to DRS, they're frequently hard up on mana when they go off, so Stifling a loot trigger can often stall them out. Postboard, you have Grip, Pyromancer, Faerie Conclave, and Ascendancy are all vulnerable to Golgari Charm, Cage and Surgical/Extirpate stop Fatestitcher, we're pretty hard to REB, and on, and on. I really can't see that matchup being anything but favorable for both builds of the deck. The thing I fear most out of UWR is SFM into Sword of Feast and Famine, and Ascendancy decks can't do that. They can draw all the cards they want if none of them kill us, and the deck isn't very scary without Ascendancy.

[janluis1]

Guys i ve recenty switch with this deck and im having problems beating jace(miracles matchup) and elves(in spite of having 1x darkblast maindeck). Some advice!?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Guys i ve recenty switch with this deck and im having problems beating jace(miracles matchup) and elves(in spite of having 1x darkblast maindeck). Some advice!?


Elves - Toxic Deluge, engineered Plague, Perish, Disfigure, golgari charm

Miracles - Zur's Weirding, Spell Snare, Pithing Needle, stifle deck build

Those cards will wreck them.

[btm10]

Guys i ve recenty switch with this deck and im having problems beating jace(miracles matchup) and elves(in spite of having 1x darkblast maindeck). Some advice!?

Against Elves you just overload on removal postboard while boarding out anything that feels clunky or doesn't line up well with their deck (like Daze). My general plan is -4 Daze, -1 Treasure Cruise, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure, +1 Grafdigger's Cage. It's not an impossible matchup, but it is more difficult than average.

Miracles is one of the deck's better matchups. As I've said before here, I usually only lose when I try to get cute and fight over things other than Jace and Entreat. Sometimes they board Counterbalance out against us, and that's fine because it lets you let them resolve small Entreats (1-2 angels) without having to worry about the race. My boarding is usually along the lines of -4 Daze, -2 Wasteland, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Sylvan Library, +2 Divert, as the thing you're going to spend the most resources on is counterwars. Grip hits Top, Pulse kills Jace (or lets you clean up an entreat), Sylvan is almost always gg if you get to keep it around because it essentially turns their Swords into card advantage and means that any Delver you play after untapping with Sylvan is going to flip. It's the best card in the matchup. I've seen some people board Force out against Miracles; this is incorrect. Against an opponent with only 4-8 wincons (usually 5-6), the game is just about stopping those wincons.

Some builds run creatures, but your creatures are substantially better. DRS is effectively a counter for the half of Snapcaster Mage you care about, and Stoneforge Mystic isn't a threat. Postboard, the SFM builds might have Sword of Feast and Famine, which is a rare relevant card. Save a Decay for it if possible, but these versions of Miracles usually leave Counterbalance in and also bring in Rest in Peace to attempt to overload your removal. The best answer here is to board in Golgari Charm to handle the enchantments. I still run 2-3 Thoughtseize main and it's very strong here because again there are so few relevant cards.

[KobeBryan]

Guys i ve recenty switch with this deck and im having problems beating jace(miracles matchup) and elves(in spite of having 1x darkblast maindeck). Some advice!?

elves is HARD. the best way to do it would be to double delver them. take out daze, bring in your creature removals Best to do as follows. Kill symbiote as first priority. Then heritage druid. Grafdiggers and maybe spell pierce

miracles. here is the trick. People board OUT counterbalance, which i don't know why they would. You board out 2 abrupt decays because its pretty useless. take out a wasteland. Take out daze. Board in spell pierce, 1 golgari charm, vendilion clique and whatever else you have. people usually have library and maybe a creeping tarpit, and krosan grip. Bring in nulls and pithing needle. Do not counter his creature removal, even terminus. You have enough shuffle effects to move it back to the top. Counter his entreat and jace. Don't overextend with creatures.

Good luck.

[FoolofaTook]

Envelop is really good against both Elves and Miracles. If those two lists are giving you a lot of trouble put an Envelop or 2 in the sideboard and it will counter the spells that are going to kill you most of the time. Elves is really hard anyway. It's the list that convinced me that BUG Delver was weak against tribal.

[janluis1]

Against Elves you just overload on removal postboard while boarding out anything that feels clunky or doesn't line up well with their deck (like Daze). My general plan is -4 Daze, -1 Treasure Cruise, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure, +1 Grafdigger's Cage. It's not an impossible matchup, but it is more difficult than average.

Miracles is one of the deck's better matchups. As I've said before here, I usually only lose when I try to get cute and fight over things other than Jace and Entreat. Sometimes they board Counterbalance out against us, and that's fine because it lets you let them resolve small Entreats (1-2 angels) without having to worry about the race. My boarding is usually along the lines of -4 Daze, -2 Wasteland, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Sylvan Library, +2 Divert, as the thing you're going to spend the most resources on is counterwars. Grip hits Top, Pulse kills Jace (or lets you clean up an entreat), Sylvan is almost always gg if you get to keep it around because it essentially turns their Swords into card advantage and means that any Delver you play after untapping with Sylvan is going to flip. It's the best card in the matchup. I've seen some people board Force out against Miracles; this is incorrect. Against an opponent with only 4-8 wincons (usually 5-6), the game is just about stopping those wincons.

Some builds run creatures, but your creatures are substantially better. DRS is effectively a counter for the half of Snapcaster Mage you care about, and Stoneforge Mystic isn't a threat. Postboard, the SFM builds might have Sword of Feast and Famine, which is a rare relevant card. Save a Decay for it if possible, but these versions of Miracles usually leave Counterbalance in and also bring in Rest in Peace to attempt to overload your removal. The best answer here is to board in Golgari Charm to handle the enchantments. I still run 2-3 Thoughtseize main and it's very strong here because again there are so few relevant cards.

I personally run stifle build. What do you do when you have counterbalance on the stack(with top in play) and your hand reads : Fow tarmo land cruise cruise? ( I have no board position)

I used fow piching cruise and i lost to jace few turns later. was it a mistake? cheers

[janluis1]

elves is HARD. the best way to do it would be to double delver them. take out daze, bring in your creature removals Best to do as follows. Kill symbiote as first priority. Then heritage druid. Grafdiggers and maybe spell pierce

miracles. here is the trick. People board OUT counterbalance, which i don't know why they would. You board out 2 abrupt decays because its pretty useless. take out a wasteland. Take out daze. Board in spell pierce, 1 golgari charm, vendilion clique and whatever else you have. people usually have library and maybe a creeping tarpit, and krosan grip. Bring in nulls and pithing needle. Do not counter his creature removal, even terminus. You have enough shuffle effects to move it back to the top. Counter his entreat and jace. Don't overextend with creatures.

Good luck.


Why do you bring in pierces against elves? Most of the time they have plenty of mana to pay for it. Cheers

[janluis1]

Envelop is really good against both Elves and Miracles. If those two lists are giving you a lot of trouble put an Envelop or 2 in the sideboard and it will counter the spells that are going to kill you most of the time. Elves is really hard anyway. It's the list that convinced me that BUG Delver was weak against tribal.

I lost to it with a darkblast main and 1 sb

[janluis1]

Here is my list against the italian meta. Looking to beat miracles, Elves, Ur Delver, Jeskai Stoneblade


18
LANDS
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island


12 CREATURES

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman

29 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
1 Dimir Charm
1 DarkBlast

SIDEBOARD
1 DarkBlast
2 Chill
2 Spell Pierce
2 FlusterStorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Peething Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace The Mind Sculptor

Some Advice for make my sideboard and/or main deck better? Thanks

[FoolofaTook]

I lost to it with a darkblast main and 1 sb

I was under-performing against Elves and D&T with 4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Golgari Charm, 2 Disfigure, Darkblast, Toxic Deluge and Dimir Charm in the mix after sideboarding. There's only so much you can do with your SB against tribal. I was having problems with Merfolk also.

I seriously considered Marsh Casualties as an option because it left my unflipped Delvers alive. I thought about Engineered Plague, which is just a turn too slow against Elves and a bit too expensive against D&T's varied creature base. Massacre is too slow against Elves, very hard to resolve against Merfolk and D&T alone is not worth the slot. Pernicious Deed is too slow against everybody but Merfolk.

It's just an ugly process trying to turn 3 colors that have no direct damage and no damage-based cheap sweepers into an effective list against a tribal gauntlet. Hidden Gibbons would have been just as bad, because 26 creatures is way too many to manage with the kind of removal suite BUG brings to the table.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Engineered Explosives for 0?

[btm10]

I personally run stifle build. What do you do when you have counterbalance on the stack(with top in play) and your hand reads : Fow tarmo land cruise cruise? ( I have no board position)

I used fow piching cruise and i lost to jace few turns later. was it a mistake? cheers

In short, yes, that's the wrong play. Most Miracles players will let you Cruise and frequently can't stop it even when they want to. Let them have CounterTop, then untap and try to Cruise into Abrupt Decay. If you topdeck a Ponder or Brainstorm, fire it off first to see if there's a Decay in the top 3. You've got basically no other targets for Decay, and some major targets for Force.


Here is my list against the italian meta. Looking to beat miracles, Elves, Ur Delver, Jeskai Stoneblade


18
LANDS
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island


12 CREATURES

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman

29 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Ponder
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
1 Dimir Charm
1 DarkBlast

SIDEBOARD
1 DarkBlast
2 Chill
2 Spell Pierce
2 FlusterStorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Peething Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace The Mind Sculptor

Some Advice for make my sideboard and/or main deck better? Thanks

I think that your postboard Curve is high for only 18 lands. Especially against Miracles where you'll likely board at least one Wasteland out. Jace is extremely expensive, is really only good against Miracles, and should probably be another Sylvan Library. Is there a lot of Burn in your meta, or are the Chills just for UR Delver? I like a Maelstrom Pulse/K.Grip split in the board because Pulse can answer Planeswalkers and token swarms even though it's not as good against Batterskull. Do you not have any Reanimator or Dredge in your meta? One Cage seems like not enough. Finally, 4 Cruise is at least one too many.

[janluis1]

In short, yes, that's the wrong play. Most Miracles players will let you Cruise and frequently can't stop it even when they want to. Let them have CounterTop, then untap and try to Cruise into Abrupt Decay. If you topdeck a Ponder or Brainstorm, fire it off first to see if there's a Decay in the top 3. You've got basically no other targets for Decay, and some major targets for Force.



I think that your postboard Curve is high for only 18 lands. Especially against Miracles where you'll likely board at least one Wasteland out. Jace is extremely expensive, is really only good against Miracles, and should probably be another Sylvan Library. Is there a lot of Burn in your meta, or are the Chills just for UR Delver? I like a Maelstrom Pulse/K.Grip split in the board because Pulse can answer Planeswalkers and token swarms even though it's not as good against Batterskull. Do you not have any Reanimator or Dredge in your meta? One Cage seems like not enough. Finally, 4 Cruise is at least one too many.


Tnx for the advice. One more question: what's the reasoning behind siding out 1 wasteland against miracles!? I thought mana denial plan expecially first few turns is still something profitable, expecially if you get them off red(volcanic islands).
Cheers

[FoolofaTook]

In short, yes, that's the wrong play. Most Miracles players will let you Cruise and frequently can't stop it even when they want to. Let them have CounterTop, then untap and try to Cruise into Abrupt Decay. If you topdeck a Ponder or Brainstorm, fire it off first to see if there's a Decay in the top 3. You've got basically no other targets for Decay, and some major targets for Force.

The odds on resolving a 1cc spell with Counterbalance on the board are fairly low. If they have top out they're nil.

The order of priority for Force of Will against Miracles is 1) Sensei's Divining Top at all costs, 2) Counterbalance if you're not holding the Abrupt Decay in hand when it's on the stack and then 3) whatever is going to kill you if it resolves, in that order. Because top will find them 2 and 3 in a hurry and you'll never stop 3 once top and CB are on the board.

[janluis1]

The odds on resolving a 1cc spell with Counterbalance on the board are fairly low. If they have top out they're nil.

The order of priority for Force of Will against Miracles is 1) Sensei's Divining Top at all costs, 2) Counterbalance if you're not holding the Abrupt Decay in hand when it's on the stack and then 3) whatever is going to kill you if it resolves, in that order. Because top will find them 2 and 3 in a hurry and you'll never stop 3 once top and CB are on the board.


Interesting. I played Uwr Delver with a decent success expecially against miracles. I consider countering sensei's divining top a mistake. ( I only counter sensei if i am in a denail plan or i have multiple fow in my hand). You can't counter everything so is better saving your Fows for spells that if resolved you are certain to loose the game.
However I remember one time piloting miracles and loosing against a bug delver player after he countered my turn 1 top and empting his hand on the board. I consider his play fairly risky and I prefer playing one threat a time. Thoughts?

[FoolofaTook]

Interesting. I played Uwr Delver with a decent success expecially against miracles. I consider countering sensei's divining top a mistake. ( I only counter sensei if i am in a denail plan or i have multiple fow in my hand). You can't counter everything so is better saving your Fows for spells that if resolved you are certain to loose the game.
However I remember one time piloting miracles and loosing against a bug delver player after he countered my turn 1 top and empting his hand on the board. I consider his play fairly risky and I prefer playing one threat a time. Thoughts?

Top is the single card I lose most to when I lose to Miracles. I've had really good matchups against the archetype in BUG but a resolved top is so devastating that I will blow an Abrupt Decay just to make the opponent shuffle his top away after he has cracked a fetch.

My BUG builds have run about 60/40 against Miracles but when they stick a top and can spin it into the mid-game that win percentage goes way down.

You don't have to empty your hand against Miracles if you can keep him from inevitability in the mid to late game and a top on the board is inevitability.

[janluis1]

Top is the single card I lose most to when I lose to Miracles. I've had really good matchups against the archetype in BUG but a resolved top is so devastating that I will blow an Abrupt Decay just to make the opponent shuffle his top away after he has cracked a fetch.

My BUG builds have run about 60/40 against Miracles but when they stick a top and can spin it into the mid-game that win percentage goes way down.

You don't have to empty your hand against Miracles if you can keep him from inevitability in the mid to late game and a top on the board is inevitability.

Tnx. Ill test this strategy and see if it works!

[btm10]

The odds on resolving a 1cc spell with Counterbalance on the board are fairly low. If they have top out they're nil.

The order of priority for Force of Will against Miracles is 1) Sensei's Divining Top at all costs, 2) Counterbalance if you're not holding the Abrupt Decay in hand when it's on the stack and then 3) whatever is going to kill you if it resolves, in that order. Because top will find them 2 and 3 in a hurry and you'll never stop 3 once top and CB are on the board.

This is a really great way to lose to Miracles. Whether or not the cantrip resolves in that situation is irrelevant. If the CounterTop it, that's fine, especially if they aren't floating a 1 CMC spell - in that case, you got them to flip the Top and can now land the Goyf. If you can do that, there's no point in spending a Decay until the time comes to fight a counterwar. Unless they're really hard up and crutching along on the Counterbalance, they'll likely let you spend your mana cantripping or Cruising and plan to answer your actual threats. Spending valuable countermagic on a card that can be uncounterably answered by a four-of that's otherwise dead is a massive waste of your most valuable resource.

Countering early Tops with Daze is a good line because Daze is awful after turn 3 and Miracles is pretty anemic without Top. Things like Spell Pierce and Force of Will generally don't lose much effectiveness as the game goes on, so it's riskier to spend them on a Top, especially if it's not the first one they've had out. If you can go the full-aggro route against Miracles there's an argument for just beating them senseless with creatures while countering their Tops, but if the game is going beyond turn 5 or 6 then this line is extremely risky because it relies on hoping that they don't topdeck Jace, naturally Miracle Entreat, or worse - win a counterwar over a Top.

[FoolofaTook]

Miracles is pretty anemic without Top.

This is all you really need to know about fighting Miracles with control or aggro control. Top is the game to them. CB goes out against a lot of lists, particularly with Abrupt Decay in the mix but Top is what wins for them.

As to whether or not to counter Counterbalance itself, that really comes down to whether or not you have Abrupt Decay in hand or know it is on top of your library and whether or not they have Top in play. You have a chance to fight CB without Top in play even if you don't have Abrupt Decay readily accessible. Once they have both in play your cantrips are severely impaired and you have no way of knowing if you'll find decay before the big counter battle to come. Saving Force of Will for Jace and then not having Abrupt Decay is just asking for them to flip Force of Will in response to your Force of Will and land Jace anyway. That's a loss almost every time.

[jnosrati]

Just had a thought -

so if we are runnning 4x stifle, 4x wasteland. Why not board thorn of amethyst? so we can maximize the mana denial plan?


Vs storm and other combo -- auto win

VS miriacles-- jace costs 5 and we run lots of distruption so it never drops.

VS UR delver - they play creatures turn 1 and 2, then sit with a hand full of instants. Seems better to play this turn 3 than than chill, which doesnt stop all the U instants that give them triggers.

Obviously thorn hurts our counters, but for these specific mathchups (and maybe uw blade) it seems incredible to me....

Thoughts?

[wcm8]

Just had a thought -

so if we are runnning 4x stifle, 4x wasteland. Why not board thorn of amethyst? so we can maximize the mana denial plan?


Vs storm and other combo -- auto win

VS miriacles-- jace costs 5 and we run lots of distruption so it never drops.

VS UR delver - they play creatures turn 1 and 2, then sit with a hand full of instants. Seems better to play this turn 3 than than chill, which doesnt stop all the U instants that give them triggers.

Obviously thorn hurts our counters, but for these specific mathchups (and maybe uw blade) it seems incredible to me....

Thoughts?

It effects us just as badly. I guess I could imagine a UW(x) tempo deck siding in Thalia, but BUG?

That said, Winter Orb is pretty good. It's not as symmetrical since we have DRS, Daze, and a low curve.

[btm10]

Just had a thought -

so if we are runnning 4x stifle, 4x wasteland. Why not board thorn of amethyst? so we can maximize the mana denial plan?

Vs storm and other combo -- auto win

VS miriacles-- jace costs 5 and we run lots of distruption so it never drops.

VS UR delver - they play creatures turn 1 and 2, then sit with a hand full of instants. Seems better to play this turn 3 than than chill, which doesnt stop all the U instants that give them triggers.

Obviously thorn hurts our counters, but for these specific mathchups (and maybe uw blade) it seems incredible to me....

Thoughts?

I'm running 0 Stifle, and I'm not sure if Stifle is where we want to be.

More to the point, Stifle and Thorn are just a super nonbo in this deck. Stifle requires that you hold up mana; under Thorn you have to hold up 1U just to hit with it, and with only 18 lands (as nearly all the Stifle builds do), you can't play noncreature spells during your turn until you hit 4 mana. It also means you can't Daze when tapped out. This deck, whether you're running Stifle or Thoughtseize, needs to play its one mana spells for one mana in order to maintain the right mix of threats, disruption, and mana sources.

EDIT: What wcm8 said.

[jnosrati]

I'm running 0 Stifle, and I'm not sure if Stifle is where we want to be.

More to the point, Stifle and Thorn are just a super nonbo in this deck. Stifle requires that you hold up mana; under Thorn you have to hold up 1U just to hit with it, and with only 18 lands (as nearly all the Stifle builds do), you can't play noncreature spells during your turn until you hit 4 mana. It also means you can't Daze when tapped out. This deck, whether you're running Stifle or Thoughtseize, needs to play its one mana spells for one mana in order to maintain the right mix of threats, disruption, and mana sources.

EDIT: What wcm8 said.


Against combo, i dont think it matters. if we play thorn, we win. Counters are just to stall until we can drop thorn.
against UR, again, stifle would come out earlier than thorn (if we have it) and thorn would hurt them much more than us. We only really would need thorn until we can drop a few creatures and stabilize.

(on winter orb, it doesnt beat storm, which along with UR seems to be the most popular deck right now)

I dont have much time to test, but if anyone does, give this a shot at least and share with us what you see. I really think this has merit.

[btm10]

Against combo, i dont think it matters. if we play thorn, we win. Counters are just to stall until we can drop thorn.
against UR, again, stifle would come out earlier than thorn (if we have it) and thorn would hurt them much more than us. We only really would need thorn until we can drop a few creatures and stabilize.

(on winter orb, it doesnt beat storm, which along with UR seems to be the most popular deck right now)

I dont have much time to test, but if anyone does, give this a shot at least and share with us what you see. I really think this has merit.

I'm not going to test this, sorry. We're already pretty heavily favored against combo, and we're never going to have time to drop it against UR, which is a matchup where we want Stifle way more than Thorn.

[janluis1]

So How's the Bug experts feel about this deck in the new TC meta? Is still a good call or we have better options?
Tnx

[Manipulato]

So How's the Bug experts feel about this deck in the new TC meta? Is still a good call or we have better options?
Tnx

I played TA the whole year succesfully in our local store and the last 2 turneys went bad with it. After that experience I switched to 4c Deathblade (Went 4:0:1) and yesterday UWR Stoneblade (Easy 5:0) and I'm sure now that there are better decks right now. But I'm still interested in TA and the day will come where it will be great again.

Greetings

[janluis1]

I played TA the whole year succesfully in our local store and the last 2 turneys went bad with it. After that experience I switched to 4c Deathblade (Went 4:0:1) and yesterday UWR Stoneblade (Easy 5:0) and I'm sure now that there are better decks right now. But I'm still interested in TA and the day will come where it will be great again.

Greetings

In your opinion what are the causing factors that take off TA from the boogyman position it was before TC meta!?

[Manipulato]

In your opinion what are the causing factors that take off TA from the boogyman position it was before TC meta!?

Hymn were one of the strongest cards in the deck, 1-2 Hymn and the game was quite over for the opponent because coming back from it was very difficult + we had Daze, AD & Lili to take care of the stuff which were played the turn before and after Hymn. Tombstalker was also just huge as a beater.

Now the discard is not that good anymore because a topdecked TC will bring him back in the game.

The reise of UR and UWR hurted TA too because they have so much removal for Goyf/Delver and 1 mana removal is just way better than 2 mana stuff. Goyf vs YP sucks too. REB & Pyroblast are just super strong right now, a thing which TA has no Accessoires to it. I also really like hatebears like Priest & Mage against Elves, Sneak Show etc.

At the moment I just think that SFM, TNN & the whole StP/Bolt package is just better positioned right now.

[btm10]

In your opinion what are the causing factors that take off TA from the boogyman position it was before TC meta!?

I'm actually going to disagree with Manipulato here - I think that TA is still quite well positioned and haven't had any trouble winning with it since Treasure Cruise entered the meta. UR isn't as good a matchup as RUG was, but it's close to even if not still slightly favorable, especially if you run more MD removal at 1 CMC. The stock lists from 3 months ago aren't where we want to be, but we're by no means outclassed. The only scary lines out of UWr Blade are the ones involving Stoneforge for Sword of Feast and Famine, and those can be answered by Thoughtseize.

Finally, TA still has the best combo matchup in the format and a favorable-to-even Miracles matchup. UR isn't everything, and again, it isn't even a bad matchup.

[FoolofaTook]

@Manipulato

That's a great reply that hits on most of the main factors in the decline of BUG. The biggest single factor in my opinion is the decline of discard that Treasure Cruise caused. The second is the presence of REB/Pyro main list and no way for us to access it. The final nail in the BUG coffin is that Stoneforge Mystic vaulted over Tarmogoyf as the best 2 drop creature in the game. Young Pyromancer became at least as good as Dark Confidant. Abrupt Decay declined a bit in value as SFM and YP turned it into less than a 1-for-1 in most cases.

In order for BUG to regain a favored position Treasure Cruise will have to be banned and main list REB/Pyros will have to go away except in Painter and Miracles.

[FoolofaTook]

Finally, TA still has the best combo matchup in the format and a favorable-to-even Miracles matchup. UR isn't everything, and again, it isn't even a bad matchup.

UWR is the bad matchup. Elves and D&T are the outliers that make that fact salient. We don't have positive matchups against any of those lists and they are all played heavily.

[Manipulato]

Elves & DnT, Maverick are heavily played currently and it were always quite difficult MU's, not impossible but really difficult.
TNN + Equipment won me just sooo many games where I would have lost if it were just something else.

Sure we can play a different list now with stifle or thoughtseize but I just dont like it and its most of the time very situational or just good in one MU and not in a other. ..

[FoolofaTook]

I tried BUG Control with TNN + Jitte when it became clear that red splash Stoneblade had the upper hand. It's too slow against Elves and barely fast enough to get even on D&T and it doesn't resolve Stoneblade at all. It just gives them more incentive to main list REB/Pyro because managing TNN before he lands is much easier than after.

[janluis1]

I'm actually going to disagree with Manipulato here - I think that TA is still quite well positioned and haven't had any trouble winning with it since Treasure Cruise entered the meta. UR isn't as good a matchup as RUG was, but it's close to even if not still slightly favorable, especially if you run more MD removal at 1 CMC. The stock lists from 3 months ago aren't where we want to be, but we're by no means outclassed. The only scary lines out of UWr Blade are the ones involving Stoneforge for Sword of Feast and Famine, and those can be answered by Thoughtseize.

Finally, TA still has the best combo matchup in the format and a favorable-to-even Miracles matchup. UR isn't everything, and again, it isn't even a bad matchup.


From my testing ur is a good matchup as long as you run chills and darkblasts in the board

[btm10]

From my testing ur is a good matchup as long as you run chills and darkblasts in the board

I haven't even found Chill to be necessary, and 1-2 MD removal spells on top of 4 Decay (I'm currently on 2 Disfigure) seems to swing the matchup pretty well by themselves.


UWR is the bad matchup. Elves and D&T are the outliers that make that fact salient. We don't have positive matchups against any of those lists and they are all played heavily.

It's really not. D&T and Elves are challenging, but Elves in particular isn't that bad. I'm certainly not going to let either deck influence my deck choice too much because they just aren't that widely played.


Elves & DnT, Maverick are heavily played currently and it were always quite difficult MU's, not impossible but really difficult.
TNN + Equipment won me just sooo many games where I would have lost if it were just something else.

Sure we can play a different list now with stifle or thoughtseize but I just dont like it and its most of the time very situational or just good in one MU and not in a other. ..

Maverick is definitely a rough matchup, but again, I'm not seeing a lot of it and I'm not going to let a deck I don't see much of influence my decision about what to play. I've never liked SFM much at all, and as long as people are walking it into Thoughtseize with it, I'm going to keep playing Tarmogoyf. I've always thought that Thoughtseize was excellent in every matchup except Burn, and not running Hymn hasn't felt underpowered.

[Manipulato]

I haven't even found Chill to be necessary, and 1-2 MD removal spells on top of 4 Decay (I'm currently on 2 Disfigure) seems to swing the matchup pretty well by themselves.




It's really not. D&T and Elves are challenging, but Elves in particular isn't that bad. I'm certainly not going to let either deck influence my deck choice too much because they just aren't that widely played.



Maverick is definitely a rough matchup, but again, I'm not seeing a lot of it and I'm not going to let a deck I don't see much of influence my decision about what to play. I've never liked SFM much at all, and as long as people are walking it into Thoughtseize with it, I'm going to keep playing Tarmogoyf. I've always thought that Thoughtseize was excellent in every matchup except Burn, and not running Hymn hasn't felt underpowered.


Well than we have different meta's which should not be a suprise because I'm from europe :wink:

In my meta we always have a couple of Elves, DnT. They're very popular here.

Hymn is not a bad card, but it's lost some of it's power level.

[FoolofaTook]

It's really not. D&T and Elves are challenging, but Elves in particular isn't that bad. I'm certainly not going to let either deck influence my deck choice too much because they just aren't that widely played.

Elves was 1 through 4 of 260 in Indy at the end of September. D&T just won at Atlanta, 225. Both place lists in top 8's fairly frequently. I may just be sensitive to this because I have several dedicated Elves and D&T players in the local meta however I think you can't plan to not face these lists a couple of times at a major event.

[btm10]

Elves was 1 through 4 of 260 in Indy at the end of September. D&T just won at Atlanta, 225. Both place lists in top 8's fairly frequently. I may just be sensitive to this because I have several dedicated Elves and D&T players in the local meta however I think you can't plan to not face these lists a couple of times at a major event.

I'm not planning not to face them - I have additional MD creature removal and additional removal in the board - but I'm also not letting them dictate which deck I play. It's one thing for me to put Enchantress down because it's severely disfavored against combo. Having more 50/50 matchups than I had 3 months ago isn't a good enough reason for me to put TA down. If I were particularly concerned by either deck, I'd just add an Engineered Plague to my board.

Edit: Manipulato, you may be right. My local just has 2 people on UR and one on UWR since Cruise came out, with most of the rest on Miracles and combo. As such, I definitely like TA.

[Asthereal]

For me, the year 2014 was the year of Team America. I have played it in every tournament, tuned the list after Treasure Cruise happened, and the deck has served me well. I made two top-8s out of six tournaments and never scored below 50% in an event. For the last tournament of 2014 I decided I should give Team America one last spin.

This particular tournament was the last chance to win tickets for an Invitational Tournament of my "local" game store, which sounds bad, but it's not. Entry is invite only (duh) and free, prize support: €1.150! I didn't have my invite yet, so I really wanted to win one. This event had major competition from other tourneys, so only 12 guys showed up, but who cares. Prizes were 2 tickets for the Invite thing, plus boosters. Four rounds of Swiss and cut-off to top-4. Winners of the semis win the Invites, unless one of them already has one, in that case the losers of the semis also get to play for an Invite.

This is the list I ran:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf /12

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure /29

4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland /19

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Vendilion Clique /15

Some explanation of card choices:
I am still on the main deck Spell Pierce plan. I really think it's the right way to go. Compared to last time I ran only 3x Cruise instead of 4. The last Cruise was replaced by Sylvan Library.

This gives me another slot for the sideboard. The sideboard now has 2x Clique (good against combo, Miracles). The removal package was changed. I decided to drop the Darkblast, even though it was good, and I went back to the full set of Disfigures, because I expected a lot of UWR Pyro-Delver-StoneBlade, and Disfigure just hits all the creatures they have.

All in all I think this should be a good allround list, with a good chance against the popular UR and UWR Delver lists and Combo, and a fair game against Miracles, Elves and D&T.

Round 1, against Pox.
Game 1 I win the toss and fire off a Ponder. He Wastes my land. The Ponder found me new land, so I'm not too worried. His Wasteland set him back more than it did me. I cough up some guys and he never recovers.
Game 2 he aggressively Extirpates my Force of Wills. He also calls wrong cards with Therapy. He seemed not very experienced and I again take the game with a couple of creatures that get defended by countermagic.
2-0, 1-0

Round 2 against Red Mud.
Ruben again. We always meet in the tournaments and he knows what I'm on. We joke around a bit -cool guy- and I win the toss.
Game 1 I lead with Ponder. He Wastes my land twice, but I draw new ones and get to play cards with a Deathrite. I assemble a clock, counter his threats, and just kill him.
Game 2 he looks not very pleased with his opener, but decides to keep anyway. He leads wityh Mountain-go. I didn't have Force for Chalice or Trini, so I'm lucky I still get to do stuff. Delver and Deathrite make short work of his life total while he never gets anything exciting going through my counters. Walk over, though a rather lucky one, I think.
Turned out he didn't play Trini. Good for me!
2-0, 2-0

Round 3 against Sneak&Show.
Game 1 I again win the toss! I mull to a moah six and he mulls to five. Should be okay, right? I play Delver and sit on a Spell Pierce, but he goes Volcanic, Tomb, City and only then Show&Tell. Pierce looks silly while Grisel comes down. I almost get him because of 2 Goyfs and his card draw costing lots of life, but he finds good stuff and kills me. Oh well.
Game 2 I get to side in nice stuff. I counter a Blood Moon. Other than that he gets nothing going so I just kill him.
Game 3 I assemble the God Hand Of Doom and finish with a hand full of "Still had all these". Not fair though, because he just drew absolute crap for like five turns in a row. Should have been exciting, felt exciting for me (I got nervous!) but in retrospect it wasn't exciting at all.
2-1, 3-0

Round 4 against UG Infect.
We are the only ones on 3-0, so we ID into top-4 as nrs. 1 and 2. We play the match anyway for fun, and I wreck him 2-0, but he drew so many lands it wasn't fun anymore. Not even for me. I still don't know how this matchup is. It feels fine for me, but I'm not sure.
So, 3-0-1 going into to-4 as the nr. 1 so I get to start in both my finals matches! This means I get to be on the play in every match in the tournament! That's insane...

Semi-finals against ANT.
Game 1 I find two FoWs and he Duresses one, but never finds discard for the second. He seemed to misplay all of his cantrips though.
Game 2 I mull into a not so great 6, but at least it has FoW. He plays Xantid Swarm. Damn, now I have to Force. He gets down a second, after which I cantrip into counters, but not the Charms I had boarded in. My clocki is too slow and he just gets me.
Game 3 he doesn;t find a Swarm, but he does Duress my Force. I hide my Envelop with Brainstorm when he goes for a follow-up Therapy. Clique takes his Duress, and afterwards he never finds a way to fight through Envelop and I kill him with Delvers.
2-1, 4-0-1
Afterwards we discuss a bit about his cantripping. He did put thought into it, and seemed less inexperienced than I thought he was, but I pointed him towards this forum anyway to find excellent artickles about how to cantrip optimally. I hope it helps, and that I didn't come across as a condescending jerk...

UG Infect makes it to the finals and we split, because we both already win a ticket for the Invitational, and the other prizes are boosters, so it's not really worth fighting over one or two extra. :tongue:

So, undefeated! Excellent ending to a great year of playing this awesome deck. :smile: Score in played games, including unofficial ones: 10-2. The list performed great again. This feels very close to optimal right now.

[btm10]

So, undefeated! Excellent ending to a great year of playing this awesome deck. :smile: Score in played games, including unofficial ones: 10-2. The list performed great again. This feels very close to optimal right now.

Congrats! My list is 2 cards off from yours (-1 Pierce, -1 Library, +2 Thoughtseize); I've really been liking the pierces as well, but TS has been a great player for me against Storm, Sneak, and Stoneforge decks and I'll probably hold on to them for thr time being. I definitely think your list is close to optimal, though.

Do you think you'll play another deck come January, or are you still going be on TA?

[Asthereal]

Congrats! My list is 2 cards off from yours (-1 Pierce, -1 Library, +2 Thoughtseize); I've really been liking the pierces as well, but TS has been a great player for me against Storm, Sneak, and Stoneforge decks and I'll probably hold on to them for thr time being. I definitely think your list is close to optimal, though.

Do you think you'll play another deck come January, or are you still going be on TA?
I'm not sure! I mean, it's so hard. I have almost every relevant deck in Legacy, and I want to play them all. It's part of the fun for me to play different things. It keeps it interesting. But I have invested a lot of time and effort in Team America, and it's great fun to play. And it's fun to see an occasional player post here that UWR Delver is now the "best" Delver deck, and then proceed to own a tournament with your "outdated" deck, which you have tuned to completely crush UWR. :laugh:

But the plan right now, I must admit, is to play a different deck next year. Or maybe two different decks. But don't worry, I will follow this deck with great interest, and I will keep trying to help improve the deck whenever I can. :smile:

(About Thoughtseize: for me it was a conscious choice to drop all discard. Counterspells are in general the better late game draws, compared to discard. The life loss was also a concern with the rise of Burn especially in my meta here in NL. I do think, if you want to run discard, Thoughtseize is the correct choice. And if you want a lot of it, perhaps Inquisition can be okay as supplement. I just love the blue package though. It's so cool to get Probed only to show a hand full of blue stuff! :tongue:)

[Manipulato]

I'm not sure! I mean, it's so hard. I have almost every relevant deck in Legacy, and I want to play them all. It's part of the fun for me to play different things. It keeps it interesting. But I have invested a lot of time and effort in Team America, and it's great fun to play. And it's fun to see an occasional player post here that UWR Delver is now the "best" Delver deck, and then proceed to own a tournament with your "outdated" deck, which you have tuned to completely crush UWR. :laugh:

But the plan right now, I must admit, is to play a different deck next year. Or maybe two different decks. But don't worry, I will follow this deck with great interest, and I will keep trying to help improve the deck whenever I can. :smile:

(About Thoughtseize: for me it was a conscious choice to drop all discard. Counterspells are in general the better late game draws, compared to discard. The life loss was also a concern with the rise of Burn especially in my meta here in NL. I do think, if you want to run discard, Thoughtseize is the correct choice. And if you want a lot of it, perhaps Inquisition can be okay as supplement. I just love the blue package though. It's so cool to get Probed only to show a hand full of blue stuff! :tongue:)

If you mean me with the whole UWR stuff, then you should read my posts more exactly. I never said UWR Delver is the thing, I spoke from UWR Stoneblade/4c Deathblade.

Beside that making it to the finals of a 12 men event with quite good MU'S is not that huge of a evidence that the deck is still king.

[Asthereal]

If you mean me with the whole UWR stuff, then you should read my posts more exactly. I never said UWR Delver is the thing, I spoke from UWR Stoneblade/4c Deathblade.

Beside that making it to the finals of a 12 men event with quite good MU'S is not that huge of a evidence that the deck is still king.
I wasn't referring to you. Someone else mentioned it.

[FoolofaTook]

I wasn't referring to you. Someone else mentioned it.

UWR Stoneblade is better than BUG. You know that.

[btm10]

I'm not sure! I mean, it's so hard. I have almost every relevant deck in Legacy, and I want to play them all. It's part of the fun for me to play different things. It keeps it interesting. But I have invested a lot of time and effort in Team America, and it's great fun to play. And it's fun to see an occasional player post here that UWR Delver is now the "best" Delver deck, and then proceed to own a tournament with your "outdated" deck, which you have tuned to completely crush UWR. :laugh:

But the plan right now, I must admit, is to play a different deck next year. Or maybe two different decks. But don't worry, I will follow this deck with great interest, and I will keep trying to help improve the deck whenever I can. :smile:

(About Thoughtseize: for me it was a conscious choice to drop all discard. Counterspells are in general the better late game draws, compared to discard. The life loss was also a concern with the rise of Burn especially in my meta here in NL. I do think, if you want to run discard, Thoughtseize is the correct choice. And if you want a lot of it, perhaps Inquisition can be okay as supplement. I just love the blue package though. It's so cool to get Probed only to show a hand full of blue stuff! :tongue:)

I was mostly just curious. I've definitely been playing other decks at my locals the last few weeks to get a feel for other things out there - I hadn't really busted out my non-BUG duals since March, and that seemed like a waste. Grixis not-Delver seems like a real thing right now and it's definitely something I'm going to work on. That being said, I'm probably going to hold on to TA as my deck for large events because I know it best and think it's still the best overall choice.

As for discard vs. Pierce, I thnk this is just a matter of preference. Taking SFM'ed equipment is so good right now, 'seize can't be REB'ed, and I like being able to attack Show and Tell and Storm on multiple axes. I definitely see the appea of the extra Pierce (and the Library), but targeted discard in the age of Treasure Cruise really never dies; at worst you hit the Cruise or get to clear out some removal.


UWR Stoneblade is better than BUG. You know that.

It's really not. It's quite soft to combo compared to BUG, and has a worse Miracles matchup.

[iostream]

As for discard vs. Pierce, I thnk this is just a matter of preference. Taking SFM'ed equipment is so good right now, 'seize can't be REB'ed, and I like being able to attack Show and Tell and Storm on multiple axes. I definitely see the appea of the extra Pierce (and the Library), but targeted discard in the age of Treasure Cruise really never dies; at worst you hit the Cruise or get to clear out some removal.

Yeah, seems to me that things are getting more unfair, and it's good to have multiple angles to attack those decks - I've gotten blown out by Xantid Swarm a few too many times in the past.

It seems like Stifle is also becoming better. I suggested some time ago that running both Stifle and Hymn isn't as anti-synergistic as people think it is just because having access to different strategic options is good, and I cashed in a couple SCG Opens that way. Replacing Hymn by TS seems to keep that diversity of strategic options available (although with less blowout potential than Hymn) while mitigating the anti-synergy. Imagine Stifling a fetch and then ripping a cantrip out of their hand so that they can't dig for more land.

I like the idea of running Stifle/TS main and having an above average amount of additional countermagic and removal in the side. You have the most widely applicable cards game 1 and then side into the stuff you actually want post-SB. Over the last few months, I've just drawn Disfigure versus Sneak/Show and Spell Pierce versus D+T a little too often to feel great about them in the maindeck at a very large event.

[btm10]

Yeah, seems to me that things are getting more unfair, and it's good to have multiple angles to attack those decks - I've gotten blown out by Xantid Swarm a few too many times in the past.

It seems like Stifle is also becoming better. I suggested some time ago that running both Stifle and Hymn isn't as anti-synergistic as people think it is just because having access to different strategic options is good, and I cashed in a couple SCG Opens that way. Replacing Hymn by TS seems to keep that diversity of strategic options available (although with less blowout potential than Hymn) while mitigating the anti-synergy. Imagine Stifling a fetch and then ripping a cantrip out of their hand so that they can't dig for more land.

I like the idea of running Stifle/TS main and having an above average amount of additional countermagic and removal in the side. You have the most widely applicable cards game 1 and then side into the stuff you actually want post-SB. Over the last few months, I've just drawn Disfigure versus Sneak/Show and Spell Pierce versus D+T a little too often to feel great about them in the maindeck at a very large event.

I get what you're saying about Disfigure, but the extra MD removal is pretty valuable right now. I also think that Stifle isn't grewt in TA right noe despite it being really strong in RUG. RUG's plan A is Stifle/Wasteland/Daze - it's still the quintessential Tempo deck. I think that while we were always worse than RUG at playing Tempo, we could do it because if the tempo plan faltered of our opponent stabilized we always had an excellent mid-to-late game with Liliana, Sylvan Library/Bob, and the ability grind effectively. Now, I'm less sure we want to be there. Beating UR Delver revolves more around virtual card advantage generated by Tarmogoyf and DRS than it does with 'traditional' tempo elements, while playing against Miracles is basically the control mirror. Beating combo is the same as it always was, as is the Stoneblade matchup. Thr only major change I've really seen is that I get fewer free wins off of Delver than in the past because Bolt is more common than it used to be, and that also weakens the Stifle angle.

[Kamus]

I still don't understand why some players use 3 TC instead of 4.
DRS and no-probes make TC harder to cast, but the card is TOO good to not use 4. Always.

[btm10]

I still don't understand why some players use 3 TC instead of 4.
DRS and no-probes make TC harder to cast, but the card is TOO good to not use 4. Always.

I couldn't disagree more. The only reason I'm even still on three is that it's good against Miracles and because I usually pitch the first Cruise I draw to Force and want to cast at least one of the other two. I've tested BUG decks (and other decks) a lot over the holidays and will probably end up playing something that looks more like Fabiano's list from the Players' Championship than it does a Delver deck for SCG Philly.

At the end of the day, TA's tempo plan has always been a sort of "plan B" - you were really best in the midgame but sometimes had DRS into Delver + Hymn with Daze backup hands that were essentially unbeatable and thus made diluting your more powerful plays like Liliana and Sylvan Library with the tempo plan worthwhile for the "whoops! I win!" factor. We don't have that anymore, so I think that playing more of a midrange-control strategy is wher eyou want to be in BUG colors. TA is still a good deck, but the Delver plan is really pretty weak without the high-velocity cards that UR has or the full tempo plan like RUG has. UWR has basically dropped Delvers and while they were always more of a midrange deck than we are, I think it's right to follow their lead at this point.

[Asthereal]

I still don't understand why some players use 3 TC instead of 4.
DRS and no-probes make TC harder to cast, but the card is TOO good to not use 4. Always.
I played four. It was fine. I dropped one for a Sylvan Library to open up space in the board, since I quite often sided -1 Cruise, +1 Sylvan anyway, anticipating some grave hate (likely if 8/12 of your threats use the grave). So I pretty much pre-sided.



UWR has basically dropped Delvers and while they were always more of a midrange deck than we are, I think it's right to follow their lead at this point.
Funny how one deck drops the best creature in Legacy, and others actually follow that lead. Delver is great. Really, really great. If I could run eight, I would. What creature are you going to play instead?

[btm10]

Funny how one deck drops the best creature in Legacy, and others actually follow that lead. Delver is great. Really, really great. If I could run eight, I would. What creature are you going to play instead?

I think the "best creature in Legacy" part is where we part ways. The two reasons I want to be in BUG colors are Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. I started from Fabiano's list and have made some changes already, cutting CounterTop and Dazes for Forces, a second Library, and a Dimir Charm. Jace seems to be on the chopping block next, and I'll probably swap the Inquisition for Duress. I might end up back in a Delver shell, but right now Delver is the card that's pulling its weight the least.

[wwoning]

At the end of the day, TA's tempo plan has always been a sort of "plan B" - you were really best in the midgame but sometimes had DRS into Delver + Hymn with Daze backup hands that were essentially unbeatable and thus made diluting your more powerful plays like Liliana and Sylvan Library with the tempo plan worthwhile for the "whoops! I win!" factor. We don't have that anymore, so I think that playing more of a midrange-control strategy is wher eyou want to be in BUG colors. TA is still a good deck, but the Delver plan is really pretty weak without the high-velocity cards that UR has or the full tempo plan like RUG has. UWR has basically dropped Delvers and while they were always more of a midrange deck than we are, I think it's right to follow their lead at this point.

Exactly this. I think your analysis is spot on. I think our options would be moving to a RUG style deck, as we have seen happening in the thread (Pierces MB, Stifles). But then I dont see too much reason playing BUG over RUG. Moving to a strong midrange control deck is also something I think we will see happening. There are just so many good options for us there with TNN, Toxic Deluge, Library, DTT, etc.

[Asthereal]

So you guys are basically moving towards a Shardless BUG deck without the Shardless stuff.
Well, I'm not a fan, but I won't stop you if you think that's going to work better for you.
Small thing: some time ago we had a similar split between Tempoish TA and Controllish TA. The Controllish list got its own thread. It's in the Established section somewhere. Since the playing style differs so much, perhaps you should discuss your list there.

[btm10]

So you guys are basically moving towards a Shardless BUG deck without the Shardless stuff.
Well, I'm not a fan, but I won't stop you if you think that's going to work better for you.
Small thing: some time ago we had a similar split between Tempoish TA and Controllish TA. The Controllish list got its own thread. It's in the Established section somewhere. Since the playing style differs so much, perhaps you should discuss your list there.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the other thread; it's why I haven't posted a decklist here. Point taken, though.

Like I said, I'm not 100% sold on the more controlling configuration, but it's something I'm exploring. I've also been experimenting with cutting Daze (ending up with 4 Force/3 Pierce/3 Thoughtseize/4 Decay/2 Disfigure/1 Dimir Charm as my disruption/removal suite) in the tempo build (with Delvers) recently and it's been good, but I can't say if that's because people haven't figured out to not play around Daze or if it's actually good. That configuration has dramatically improved the SFM/Pyromancer matchups; UR Delver is pretty favorable postboard once you're up to 4 Disfigures + 2 Golgari Charms and Pierce actually stops Cruises fairly reliably. I may go to some mix of Pierces and Flusterstorms because FS seems better against URx Cruise decks that A. Have REBS to defend their Cruises and B. tend to play a lot of spells in a single turn.

Since I'm splitting my testing time among several decks right now I might not have definitive results soon, but I'm definitely interested in what other people are trying.

[Kamus]

I played four. It was fine. I dropped one for a Sylvan Library to open up space in the board, since I quite often sided -1 Cruise, +1 Sylvan anyway, anticipating some grave hate (likely if 8/12 of your threats use the grave). So I pretty much pre-sided.



Funny how one deck drops the best creature in Legacy, and others actually follow that lead. Delver is great. Really, really great. If I could run eight, I would. What creature are you going to play instead?

Delver is great, but it's not the best creature in legacy. DRS is better, for example. And Stoneforge Mystic is probably the best of all

[FoolofaTook]

How about going the other direction with TA Tempo? Double down on 1cc creatures that will kill the opponent if they're not answered. Make the list non-grave dependent with only a couple of Treasure Cruises that care if your GY has cards in it.

Creatures

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Mishra's Factory

Selection/Advantage

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Treasure Cruise

Disruption

4 Stifle
3 Wasteland
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay

Lands

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

23 lands, with 7 effectively uncounterable spells. 4 more uncounterable spells in Abrupt Decay. 15 key plays that invalidate REB/Pyroblast. 23 instants/sorceries for Delver (low but not completely out of range and the opponent will remove Delver reflexively anyway). 26 blue spells for Force of Will. 12 early creatures that force a response under Standstill making it very likely you will have a turn 2 Standstill opportunity every time it is in your hand.

Turn 1 Delver/DRS will still get removed most of the time, taking with it one of the opponent's few removal spells. Dreadnought will be a killer when it lands but you don't care if you don't see it because the game plan is to grind the opponent down with things he can't respond too very well.

[KobeBryan]

I like this. I would drop the bayou for another waste.

I dont see how this deck would have probelms against miracles

[FoolofaTook]

I like this. I would drop the bayou for another waste.

I dont see how this deck would have probelms against miracles

I guess it is the same 15 colored lands that BUG Delver has been running forever. Nobody seems to be on the wasteland-surgical extraction out of the board plan either. So maybe the 4th Wasteland would be a good move. It's not like the list is heavy black or green and only Abrupt Decay gets shut down entirely if you lose the seas or the trops anyway.

I'll test that list and see if it sinks or swims. I got the idea from playing a lot of Ur Dreadstill recently and discovering to my surprise that it was still a very solid list.

On the Miracles side, that's one of the few lists where Standstill is really a double-edged sword. It's very hard to drop a Standstill into an active top unless you know your threat isn't going to get removed in response before the Standstill resolves. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is hard to win a hand sculpting contest against an active top.

[Fallacy]

Hi All, I wanted to post my list that I've had good success with, which is quite similar to Noah Cohen's list (GPNJ top 16) but with some modifications (+1 land, -1 TNN, +1 Disfigure, -1 Spell Pierce). Recently, I have had ~50/50 against Maverick, which seems to be a tough MU for us. I will be getting in a LOT of play testing this weekend, and will post results on Sunday or Monday. Here's my 75:

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf

4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 TCruise

4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 FoW

3 UG Sea
3 Trop
4 Wastland
9 Fetch

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 GD Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
2 V Clique

I really like the 75 card package, as it include several playsets of important cards for us. Thoughtseize has been awesome. I am finding that card more relevant in most games. There are 12 anti-equipment cards (4 TS, 4 AD, 1 Kgrip, 1 Null Rod, 2 V Clique), 10 creature removal spells (4 AD, 4 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm), lots of options (21!) against Storm/combo (4 TS, 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 3 Spell Pierce, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 GD Cage, 2 V Clique). I am finding this 75 can cover just about anything. If I miss any card at all, it's my old 2-of MB Liliana. I get that she does not work well against Cruise decks, but she is a house against so many others. In my experience she is what gave Team America more midrange (aside from Library and Hymns, and a while back Jace). Has anyone else tinkered with getting her back in the 75?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Gerard Fabiano took second place at the players championship with 2 liliana's MB and 1 SB.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77688

[KobeBryan]

Gerard Fabiano took second place at the players championship with 2 liliana's MB and 1 SB.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77688

you can't really judge that meta. Also, he was playing control instead of tempo

[blackdiamonds]

Gerard Fabiano took second place at the players championship with 2 liliana's MB and 1 SB.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=77688

I played this in a local 8man. I am a maverick player at heart but tried this and its super sweet and have a great match up vs UR delver. i made it to the finals losing to maverick missing a few land drops. the counter top package was kind meh and too slow.

[Oxide]

Hey guys.

I personally with no testing and so on, thinks that Fabiano lists looks like a complete mess. 2 dazes seems very odd, i would never play anything less than 4 and on the other hand i would never ever play it without wasteland.

I have tried to include the counterbalance combo in bug like 100 times, and it never really feels great. it feels abit like you are playing a bad miracles deck.
I like the idea of going abit more midrange, but why not play Shardless then ? its still good and u can play 2 cruise/DIG with no problem along side your normal Ancestral vision plan.

Atm im trying to make a deck for a small local event im going to in some days, there will only be really good legacy players and all sorts of deck types, mostly Combo tho, thats why im thinking im playing BUG Delver.

Current list:

4x Delver
4x Deathrite
4x Tarmogoyf

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of will
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Decay
3x Cruise
2x Disfigure

4x Underground sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Wasteland
8x Fetches

My sideboard is mostly Sweepers, 2 golgari charms, 2 toxic deluge, and all the normal stuff.

But im thinking this, how bad is it to play 2 cruise and 1 tombstalker ? have any tried that ? Tombstalker did wonders for me pre cruise, and i miss the big fella. and rigth now there is no removal for him other than Swords.

And what do people think about TNN in this deck ? i played the same list last week apart from the fact that i had 2 TNN instead of the 2 Disfigure and went 5-1, only losing to a mono black i kill all your creatures deck. but some how he just feels so clunky, i think one of the biggest strenght BUG delver and all the other bug decks have is there creature removal, that you can board in, like Golgari charm, toxic deluge, Massacre and so on. But with TNN it can get kinda bad.
Precruise i played the same list for like 8 months with 2 tombstalkers and like 6 sweepers in the board, and it was amazing. i made top 4 nerly every time i played. but i guess its just dead now.

I really liked stifle, people aint ready for it, and you can use the card for alot of things, so for the moment i think its better than any of the normal discard spell we normally run.

Sorry for bad engrish! :D

[exallium]

Just a bit of a result:

I playtested a bunch of games using the Spell Pierce / Disfigure configuration vs UR Delver last night, and that configuration seems to be really solid vs. the deck, to the point where I feel like we are advantaged. Not only that, but with the subsequent rise of Storm, having access to so many spell pierces translates nicely for that matchup as well.

[btm10]

Just a bit of a result:

I playtested a bunch of games using the Spell Pierce / Disfigure configuration vs UR Delver last night, and that configuration seems to be really solid vs. the deck, to the point where I feel like we are advantaged. Not only that, but with the subsequent rise of Storm, having access to so many spell pierces translates nicely for that matchup as well.

This is the case with my testing as well, though I wouldn't say we're heavily advantaged. Definitely not at a disadvantage, though. I'm really torn between TA and Grixis right now. The former is stronger against combo and Miracles, while the latter Cruises better and handles UR better.

EDIT: Oxide, I agree with your suspicion that Tombstalker and 2 Cruise is probably wrong. You can do it, but I'd rather just have 3 Cruise and a TNN or an additional disruptive element. I'm also not a fan of Stifle and Thoughtseize - they really work across purposes, so it's better to pick one or the other and run additional Pierces in those slots. My list is yours, -4 Stifle, +2 Pierce, +1 Dimir Charm, +1 TNN.