[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Is Matthew Pate, 11th at SCG Houston, in the house?

[KobeBryan]

I really like Hooting Mandrills too, I tested him in RUG and was very impressed by him. He not just laughs at TNN, he also tramples over DS, Delver, Boby, Mother, Thalia and tons of other creatures. 19 lands are a bit to low for my taste especially with 4 Hymn, Lili & 2 Bayous in the manabase.
If you would cut the Lili for disfigure and maybe a bayou for a trop I would be fine with 19 lands.

I have a turney on Saturday on my own and will test the standard Hymn/Lili build and maybe I replace the Lili afterwards with Disfigure so that the Delvers flip more consistant, but the deck was never a really good "Delver deck".

By the way. Where is your Sylvan Library from round 5?? :laugh:

Brain fart. I listed 58 cards. I have a disfigure and library

[H]

Is Matthew Pate, 11th at SCG Houston, in the house?

That's me.

Um, I'll elaborate more on anything you want a little later, but first I'll briefly summarize my list as "an absolute train wreck." :cool:

I lost to Shane (Miracles, made top 8), Christian (RUG, 9th). Shane just caught me with a Bloodmoon in game 3 tapped out. RUG got me on a Stifle on my fetch when I kept a Fetch, double Deathrite hand game 1, it was a greedy keep and I got blown out. I grinded both games after, but a mull to 6 in game 3 ultimately put me a land behind and I couldn't answer threats fast enough to be out of Bolt Range.

[Esper3k]

That's me.

Um, I'll elaborate more on anything you want a little later, but first I'll briefly summarize my list as "an absolute train wreck." :cool:

I lost to Shane (Miracles, made top 8), Christian (RUG, 9th). Shane just caught me with a Bloodmoon in game 3 tapped out. RUG got me on a Stifle on my fetch when I kept a Fetch, double Deathrite hand game 1, it was a greedy keep and I got blown out. I grinded both games after, but a mull to 6 in game 3 ultimately put me a land behind and I couldn't answer threats fast enough to be out of Bolt Range.

Still a great performance though! Both Shane and Christian are great players (Christian wrecked me in the Swiss).

[H]

Still a great performance though! Both Shane and Christian are great players (Christian wrecked me in the Swiss).

Indeed, besides the Blood Moon blow out and the Stifle blowout, all our other games were great. The Stifle one was 100% just greed and my decision to try to play it through Wasteland. I honestly just did not consider Stifle. Both games, interestingly would have played out much differently if I had been on the play, so hey, coin-flip or something. Versus Shane, I should have taken a different line in retrospect, because playing the Needle when he doesn't have Top is just bad and there's no excuse for that. If I play my Deathrite on turn 1 then hold Needle until he plays Top, I actually had decay for the Moon. Shane is a better player than me, so chances are good he doesn't play the Moon there though, so who knows how that game actually develops. In any case, the better player won (in both instances). Were you watching that game against Shane? My memory after about round 5 is hazy, as I started getting a bad headache.

My matchups on the day were:
Round 1: Jund (2-0 Win)
Round 2: Alurn (2-0 Win)
Round 3: Miracles (2-0 ? Win)
Round 4: RUG Delver (1-2 Loss)
Round 5: Oops all Spells (2-1 Win)
Round 6: High Tide (2-0 Win)
Round 7: Miracles (1-2 Loss)
Round 8: UWR Stoneblade (?) (2-1 Win)

I am not home so I don't have my really poor excuse for notes, but I can try to write a mini report another day (need sleep/family time). I can definitely answer any questions though.

[KobeBryan]

Indeed, besides the Blood Moon blow out and the Stifle blowout, all our other games were great. The Stifle one was 100% just greed and my decision to try to play it through Wasteland. I honestly just did not consider Stifle. Both games, interestingly would have played out much differently if I had been on the play, so hey, coin-flip or something. Versus Shane, I should have taken a different line in retrospect, because playing the Needle when he doesn't have Top is just bad and there's no excuse for that. If I play my Deathrite on turn 1 then hold Needle until he plays Top, I actually had decay for the Moon. Shane is a better player than me, so chances are good he doesn't play the Moon there though, so who knows how that game actually develops. In any case, the better player won (in both instances). Were you watching that game against Shane? My memory after about round 5 is hazy, as I started getting a bad headache.

My matchups on the day were:
Round 1: Jund (2-0 Win)
Round 2: Alurn (2-0 Win)
Round 3: Miracles (2-0 ? Win)
Round 4: RUG Delver (1-2 Loss)
Round 5: Oops all Spells (2-1 Win)
Round 6: High Tide (2-0 Win)
Round 7: Miracles (1-2 Loss)
Round 8: UWR Stoneblade (?) (2-1 Win)

I am not home so I don't have my really poor excuse for notes, but I can try to write a mini report another day (need sleep/family time). I can definitely answer any questions though.

I'm guessing a quick bloodmoon is our achilles heel.

[Esper3k]

Indeed, besides the Blood Moon blow out and the Stifle blowout, all our other games were great. The Stifle one was 100% just greed and my decision to try to play it through Wasteland. I honestly just did not consider Stifle. Both games, interestingly would have played out much differently if I had been on the play, so hey, coin-flip or something. Versus Shane, I should have taken a different line in retrospect, because playing the Needle when he doesn't have Top is just bad and there's no excuse for that. If I play my Deathrite on turn 1 then hold Needle until he plays Top, I actually had decay for the Moon. Shane is a better player than me, so chances are good he doesn't play the Moon there though, so who knows how that game actually develops. In any case, the better player won (in both instances). Were you watching that game against Shane? My memory after about round 5 is hazy, as I started getting a bad headache.

My matchups on the day were:
Round 1: Jund (2-0 Win)
Round 2: Alurn (2-0 Win)
Round 3: Miracles (2-0 ? Win)
Round 4: RUG Delver (1-2 Loss)
Round 5: Oops all Spells (2-1 Win)
Round 6: High Tide (2-0 Win)
Round 7: Miracles (1-2 Loss)
Round 8: UWR Stoneblade (?) (2-1 Win)

I am not home so I don't have my really poor excuse for notes, but I can try to write a mini report another day (need sleep/family time). I can definitely answer any questions though.

I didn't watch your match vs Shane, but I can't fault you for dropping Needle early on Top though. I believe in the Miracles card that is the single most dangerous card to us, so I often aggressively attack them myself.

Btw, I think maybe you faced Shane earlier? In R7, he played vs Joe Bass in the mirror (I was at the table next to them), which he won so he could draw into T8 in R8.

[Esper3k]

I'm guessing a quick bloodmoon is our achilles heel.

Yes, even the threat of Blood Moon heavily constrains what we can do since we essentially have to always keep mana up to float for AD in case they jam it.

I find the Imperial Painter matchup one of the toughest ones for us to beat because of that.

[H]

I didn't watch your match vs Shane, but I can't fault you for dropping Needle early on Top though. I believe in the Miracles card that is the single most dangerous card to us, so I often aggressively attack them myself.

Btw, I think maybe you faced Shane earlier? In R7, he played vs Joe Bass in the mirror (I was at the table next to them), which he won so he could draw into T8 in R8.

Yeah, I agree with you, but since he started on Plains, no play, I should have probably put him on no Top. In the end, with the hand I had, I don't think I actually could have played around the Moon either way, since he had the Swords and the Moon. He may have even had Force, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I had Winter Orb in my hand that I could have cast next turn and tried for the draw, but with 15 minutes on the clock, I wasn't going to be that guy. I know Shane can win with that much time and I'm not going to pretend to debate what card to discard for a minute each turn.

I was unsure which round it was and I am pretty sure you're right, that means I went two win in a row to close it out. There a bit of a story to the last round that I'll share later where we thought I made a mistake and forgot to tap for a Ponder, so I fixed it, but it turns out I didn't and I lost the game because of it. I realized after why we thought that and so I was annoyed at myself for not just calling the Judge over. I am pretty sure with the extra time to think I would have figure out why we were confused and there wouldn't have been an issue, since I realized what happened about 2 turns later.


Yes, even the threat of Blood Moon heavily constrains what we can do since we essentially have to always keep mana up to float for AD in case they jam it.

I find the Imperial Painter matchup one of the toughest ones for us to beat because of that.

You are essentially on Force. Maybe Daze or floating mana to Decay if they are impatient. Either way, if they time it right, you lose. It may not even be worth playing around in the majority of cases, to be honest.

[KobeBryan]

Yeah, I agree with you, but since he started on Plains, no play, I should have probably put him on no Top. In the end, with the hand I had, I don't think I actually could have played around the Moon either way, since he had the Swords and the Moon. He may have even had Force, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I had Winter Orb in my hand that I could have cast next turn and tried for the draw, but with 15 minutes on the clock, I wasn't going to be that guy. I know Shane can win with that much time and I'm not going to pretend to debate what card to discard for a minute each turn.

I was unsure which round it was and I am pretty sure you're right, that means I went two win in a row to close it out. There a bit of a story to the last round that I'll share later where we thought I made a mistake and forgot to tap for a Ponder, so I fixed it, but it turns out I didn't and I lost the game because of it. I realized after why we thought that and so I was annoyed at myself for not just calling the Judge over. I am pretty sure with the extra time to think I would have figure out why we were confused and there wouldn't have been an issue, since I realized what happened about 2 turns later.



You are essentially on Force. Maybe Daze or floating mana to Decay if they are impatient. Either way, if they time it right, you lose. It may not even be worth playing around in the majority of cases, to be honest.

The daze or force isn't really that useful.

They have 7-8 blasts MD, ready to destroy your counters/blue cards.

the only thing you really can do is hold up mana for decay or golgari charm

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I agree with you, but since he started on Plains, no play, I should have probably put him on no Top. In the end, with the hand I had, I don't think I actually could have played around the Moon either way, since he had the Swords and the Moon. He may have even had Force, I'm not sure, but I don't think so. I had Winter Orb in my hand that I could have cast next turn and tried for the draw, but with 15 minutes on the clock, I wasn't going to be that guy. I know Shane can win with that much time and I'm not going to pretend to debate what card to discard for a minute each turn.

I agree with just conceding there and trying to win the next one. Our deck has a much easier time winning in that time frame than Miracles does.



I was unsure which round it was and I am pretty sure you're right, that means I went two win in a row to close it out. There a bit of a story to the last round that I'll share later where we thought I made a mistake and forgot to tap for a Ponder, so I fixed it, but it turns out I didn't and I lost the game because of it. I realized after why we thought that and so I was annoyed at myself for not just calling the Judge over. I am pretty sure with the extra time to think I would have figure out why we were confused and there wouldn't have been an issue, since I realized what happened about 2 turns later.



You are essentially on Force. Maybe Daze or floating mana to Decay if they are impatient. Either way, if they time it right, you lose. It may not even be worth playing around in the majority of cases, to be honest.

Early game is most dangerous, I think when we have to spend mana deploying threats, especially if we don't have FoW backup.

I've actually been a fan of Liliana in the matchup since she gives us an on-board way to deal with Blood Moon effects. Plus, their deck isn't that consistent so hand disruption is pretty strong against them.


The daze or force isn't really that useful.

They have 7-8 blasts MD, ready to destroy your counters/blue cards.

the only thing you really can do is hold up mana for decay or golgari charm

I think you have to keep all Forces in and some Dazes. Sure they have blasts, but they're actually pretty bad vs the rest of our deck as well as we can't afford them to keep playing bombs unimpeded early game.

[KobeBryan]

I agree with just conceding there and trying to win the next one. Our deck has a much easier time winning in that time frame than Miracles does.



Early game is most dangerous, I think when we have to spend mana deploying threats, especially if we don't have FoW backup.

I've actually been a fan of Liliana in the matchup since she gives us an on-board way to deal with Blood Moon effects. Plus, their deck isn't that consistent so hand disruption is pretty strong against them.



I think you have to keep all Forces in and some Dazes. Sure they have blasts, but they're actually pretty bad vs the rest of our deck as well as we can't afford them to keep playing bombs unimpeded early game.

Of course you would leave it in. I'm just saying its not as effective as waiting for it to come out then killing it.

[H]

I agree with just conceding there and trying to win the next one. Our deck has a much easier time winning in that time frame than Miracles does.

That was actually game 3, :laugh:

[Esper3k]

That was actually game 3, :laugh:

Oh hah! That was very nice of you then. :cool:

[H]

Oh hah! That was very nice of you then. :cool:

Yeah, I could have been a jerk, but the EV of that is pretty bad. Both of us know I can't cast spells and so does everyone else watching. I'll discuss in my mini report, when I can get it done, that I don't believe in Karma, but there is karma in this game somehow.

If I can say though, don't play my list was constructed. While I believe it has a good amount of correct decisions, there are multiple incorrect ones that I'll try to discuss. That said, Hymn to Tourach is just good and a fair amount of times it literally just wins you the game.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I could have been a jerk, but the EV of that is pretty bad. Both of us know I can't cast spells and so does everyone else watching. I'll discuss in my mini report, when I can get it done, that I don't believe in Karma, but there is karma in this game somehow.

If I can say though, don't play my list was constructed. While I believe it has a good amount of correct decisions, there are multiple incorrect ones that I'll try to discuss. That said, Hymn to Tourach is just good and a fair amount of times it literally just wins you the game.

If you're a regular on the SCG circuit, there's also value in keeping relationships good with other common SCG players. You never know when the roles might be reversed, you know?

I love Hymn. It feels like cheating when you T1 Deathrite, T2 Waste their land, Hymn them, Daze their Brainstorm... :eek:

[KobeBryan]

If you're a regular on the SCG circuit, there's also value in keeping relationships good with other common SCG players. You never know when the roles might be reversed, you know?

I love Hymn. It feels like cheating when you T1 Deathrite, T2 Waste their land, Hymn them, Daze their Brainstorm... :eek:

Many players do not recover after that line of play.

[drocker23]

Um, I'll elaborate more on anything you want a little later, but first I'll briefly summarize my list as "an absolute train wreck.

What do you mean by this? That your deck was good or bad? any changes you would consider going forward?

[H]

What do you mean by this? That your deck was good or bad? any changes you would consider going forward?

Well, going in to the Legacy Challenge Saturday, I could have sworn I playing 4 Force of Wills. As it turns out, I was only playing three, I apparently cut one without even realizing it, yet I had 60 cards. Subconscious or unconscious, either way, I left a Force at home. I could have borrowed one and probably should have, but decided it was just fate and kept it that way.

Dimir Charm shouldn't have been in the deck. It had over-preformed in testing, but I should have known better. Lastly, 19 lands is probably 1 to little, but 20 lands has often felt like too many. I don't know the solution to that. I definitely lost at least twice to being a land short, but again, who knows how things work out with 20 lands in the deck.

[drocker23]

19 lands is probably 1 to little, but 20 lands has often felt like too many. I don't know the solution to that. I definitely lost at least twice to being a land short, but again, who knows how things work out with 20 lands in the deck.

I agree with this statement that 19 lands is probably too little when it comes to your decklist. Your list has many more mana intensive cards like Hymn to Tourach and Liliana of the Veil that your land base needs to support while still using your lands for Daze and getting Wastelanded.

I know I'm of a select few, I'm running a stilfe build without Dark Confidant and I am playing 19 lands. I was against playing Bayou in the list at all but I am playing Hymn in my sideboard. So I figured I would try 1 Bayou for boarded matchups and to have 1 more green source in case I get surgical extracted on my tropical islands. but in this build with tasigur and stifle, i feel like 19 lands is perfect.

I played a list that also still did not play Hymn, but play Gitaxian Probe and True-Name Nemesis with Liliana in the sideboard the weekend after Treasure Cruise got banned. I top 8'd a 40 man event with the deck playing 18 lands, and even with the extra cantrips I felt like I was running 1 too few lands. I kept wishing I had the 19th land because I felt like I was mulliganing a little more often than I should be because of lands.

Now, in the builds playing Liliana of the Veil and Hymn to Tourach, I believe I would want 20 lands in the deck. I want to consistantly hit 3 mana without the help of Deathrite Shaman, and I want to make sure I have enough lands to maintain my color requirements like BB and BG (and in your case UB) even through opposing wastelands. I feel that since the Lily/Hymn versions are more mana intensive, they do better if they have the extra land available to them. However, I do not support this build due to the fact that Bayou is the worst land in the deck but is absolutely needed to cast all your spells because of the mana requirements this deck has. With the Stifle builds, you don't have to worry about always getting BB online, you just fetch up Underground Sea and Tropical Island and then you're golden the rest of the game. If one goes down you fetch up another one. I feel that since your spells are easier to cast and less mana intensive in the Stifle build, you want 19 lands for it.

[maharis]

Hey, I gave my version a run the other night and went 1-2 (lost ANT, beat MUD, lost Dredge) and left the last round rather than play against the Enchantress guy with MD choke and carpet.

My build has 13 creatures (4 Delver, 4 DRS, 2 TNN, 2 Mandrills, 1 Dreadnought, no Goyf), 19 lands (8 fetch, 4 waste, 4 sea, 3 trop), and this spell suite:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Snare
1 Sylvan Library

I was wondering if it would be better for me to find space for Gitaxian Probes with this build, and increase the amount of Delve creatures (add some number of Tasigurs, basically). Since I'm playing more reactive than proactive, I think the information + dig for disruption would be helpful. Maybe Library isn't a fit here? I liked that it gave me a permanent way to match Dreadnought with Stifle late, but I'm not used to playing reactive and I don't feel like I should be tapping out as much. That's also why I'm not running MD discard (I had two Duress in the board).

I am aware that Dreadnought is cute and I am up to advice on the creature suite as well, but I won't be buying Goyfs till MM2 is at least announced if not released. If I ever can borrow them, I'd probably run a Hymn/Liliana version of the deck with Bayou. So please give me feedback on this build and not an idealized version. Goyf is pretty much the only budget consideration I have related to this deck -- I have been running my 4th force in the board-- so I should be able to handle other suggestions. Thanks!

[Moerocknroll]

Hi,

last saturday i went with the following deck 4/2 in a 42 Peope Tournament and got Place 9:

Lands:
2 Bayou / 2 Tropical Island / 3 Underground Sea / 4 Wasteland / 8 Fetch

Creatures:
4 DRS / 4 Delver / 4 Tarmogoyf

Instants:
4 Daze / 3 FoW / 4 Abrupt Decay / 4 Brainstorm / 1 Murderous Cut

Sorceries:
4 Ponder / 2 Thoughtseize / 3 Hymn

Enchantments:
1 Sylvan Library / 1 Monastery Siege

PW:
2 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
1 Pithing Needle / 1 Null Rod / 2 Grafdiggers Cage / 2 Spell Pierce / 1 FoW / 2 Disfigure / 1 Toxic Deluge / 1 Dread of Night / 2 Golgari Charm / 1 Maelmstrom Pulse / 1 Krosan Grip

Matchups:
Game 1: Death&Taxes 0:2; Game 2: Enchantress 2:1; Game 3: Storm 2:0; Game 4: UWR-Delver 2:0; Game 5: Miracles 0:2; Game 6: Jund 2:1

The one off Monastery Siege and Murderous Cut in the MB were a Test.
Monastery Siege did´t convinced me at all. It resoved only once in the UWR-Delver Match, in which i was ahead. So it feeled like a win more card. Has anyone some experiences with this Card in TA?
Murderous Cut was good. But I think it´s better placed in the SB.
I played only 3 ToW in the MB, because in this build the blue-cound is a bit to low, to playing the full playset. In the relvant Matchups (for example Storm) i boarded the full countermagic. So that feels always O.K.

After the Tournament i decided to cut Monastery Siege. Muderoud Cut went to the SB. For the 2 Slots i added 1 FoW and 1 Hooting Mandrills (I want to test them). I´m not sure of playing 4 FoW or getting 3 Daze, 3 FoW and 2 Spell Pierce Main in this List.

O.K....that´s it...
Greetings from Germany..

Moe

[H]

First the list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Dimir Charm
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize

My memory is terrible at keeping track of sequence, so this report is probably all disjointed, I apologize.

Round 1: Jund

Game 1: I recall having a Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, 2 Lands, not sure what else, perhaps an extra land and a Goyf? A brief aside, the first turn is hazy to me, I am always very nervous Round 1 of any big tournament. I feel a lot of pressure to get that first win. Don't remember if he played or fetched a Bayou then a Badlands, or played a Grove (pretty sure it was Badlands), which made me certain I was facing Jund and sad that Spell Pierce was in my hand. I beleive on turn 2 I could have cast Goyf, but deciding not to, becasue there were only Lands and Instants in the yard and I didn't want him to Bolt it, so I hold up Spell Pierce. He plays a 3rd land on his turn and cast Sylvan Library. I hit it with the Pierce. Untap, play a Hymn I think. Rest of the game is hazy, but we trade removal and threats, but I draw more Goyfs than him though and it's 5/6 so his 1 Punishing Fire can pick off everything else, but not that. It gets there.

I beleive I board Forces for Disfigures and a Clique. I think I put in 1 Surgical over a Daze to hit Punishing Fire.

Game 2: I might have mulled this game, I am not sure, but certainly no lower than 6. I think I played a turn 1 Deathrite? All I can recall is that he Hymned me (I think he hit a Decay and something I don't remember), then I top decked a Hymn and fire back. I hit Goyf and Library. He plays a Chandra's Phoenix (yeah, he never hit me with a Red spell though, they all had to aim at my creatures) and I Disfigure it. This was probably a misplay, I should have just resigned myself to taking two. I beleive it was the turn after that he plays a Confidant and I have no answer. I think I had Daze and he had 1 land up. I don't draw much but cantrips. His Bob takes his life low and he lands Liliana. Lili takes to plusing and I can't play my Goyf until Lili is gone. His life total is 4 and he Decays his own Bob, which someone watching points out was a misplay, he could have just minused his Lili on himself. I draw Decay, tag Lili, then he plays Goyf and so do I. He can't attack because his life total is in Goyf range (6/7 now with Lili in the yard). I believe he removes my Goyf, but I get another or a Deathrite or something and end up killing him.

After the game, someone tells him about the Decay on his own Bob misplay and he tells me than the Hymn I played took his only two business spells. He also explains that he drew almost every fetchable land in his deck. Whew.

Round 2: Alurn

Game 1: He plays first, mulls, keeps and plays a Basic Island. He Probes, then Brainstorms. I play a Deathrite or Delver and he scoops. OK....

I have no idea what he is on, maybe High Tide, I know someone was playing it in the Legacy Challenge the day before. I board in a Thought Seize, a Clique and a Flusterstorm. I think I took out 1 Decay and something else I don't remember, probably a Daze.

Game 2: He plays a first turn Deathrite. OK...not on High Tide. I play turn 1 Delver. I have two Brainstorms and a Ponder in hand, so I feel good about a flip. Turn 2 he casts Thoughtseize, takes a Goyf I think, then Cabal Therapy on Brainstorm. Well, that happened. Turn three he plays Deamstalker and I realize he is on Alurn, but in the end though, I think I drew Goyf and Goyf, then Delver. A Wasteland and a removal spell on a second Deathrite keeps him off 4 mana, and beats get there.

Round 3: Miracles

Game 1: I know he is on Miracles, because I sat next to him the day before at the Legacy Challenge. I keep a hand with I think two threats, a Decay, some cantrips and lands. He has Top, but I manage to keep pressure on him with 1 threat at a time, so his Terminus' are not very good and he has to use Swords. I recall getting him to 5, at which point he plays Jace but has to stay on bouncing. Eventually I whittle down Jace and he plays another. I believe it was 6-7 turns on him bouncing and me replaying Goyf through a blind Counterbalance. He runs out of Jace bounces and I eventually win.

I got real lucky, since he had so many looks, he nearly stabilized. Board in Winter Orb, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Clique. I boarded out a Wasteland, a Daze, and I can't remember what.

Game 2: Game 2 is a little more clear to me, I believe I Needled Top early and played a turn 3 Library. Library never stops giving me threats which he had to Swords, which gives me enough life to draw more with Library. Looking at life totals, I don't believe I hit him with anything besides Goyfs.

Round 4: RUG Delver

Game 1: I keep a really bad hand. Double Deathrite, Ponder, Force, Brainstorm, Decay, one fetch. I figure the hand can play around Wasteland and maybe come together. He is on the play though and he plays Trop, go. I play Delta, fetch, he Stifles, I Force, he Dazes. Wrecked. I play enough to know for sure he's on RUG, then scoop without ever getting a land or discarding.

Board out Force, Disfigures and Clique come in.

Game 2: I believe in this game I get an unanswered Goyf and Liliana and win, all I have down is he went from 20-16-11-5, next game.

Game 3: I have to mull a mono-fetch hand and keep a incredibly risky 6. Double Waste and all kind of colored spells. I am hoping to catch him off guard and maybe be able to screw him out of colored mana, but I really just don't feel good about going to 5. It ends up he has plenty of lands, but only a Mongoose as a threat, so I don't take much damage as I finally draw colored mana. The game was very grindy, in the end though, I am at 6 and I end of his turn Dig Through Time. 4 lands, Double Decay, and a Daze. I am sad, because I need both Decays and a 4th land. In the end I take the two Decays and hope to fade a land for draw. I do, except it's a Wasteland. I hit his Red, pass. He attacks with a Insectile Aberation and two Goyfs. I have one Goyf, so I block and kill Delver with Decay, going to 3. My turn I draw Library, but can't play it and Decay, so I pass and he draws, attacks, I block and Decay his second Goyf. I don't remember what I drew that turn, but I pass back, he draws a fetch, gets a Volc and Bolts me. Oh well...

Round 5: Oops, all Spells

Game 1: Turn 1, he vomits his hand onto the board, Balustrade Spies himself, flips his deck and I make him go through most of the motions. When he goes to Cabal Therapy me, I examine his yard to see how he would win, ask what he names with Therapy (Force) then scoop. He says I'm the first person to do that. Who did he play before? I would have him not see what I am playing rather than trying to take the Hail Mary that he can't actually preform the Dread Return.

Surgicals, Null Rod, Needle, Flusterstorm, Clique, Thoughtseize, Krosand Grip in. Lilis, Decays, a Wasteland, a Hymn.

Game 2: He mulls to 6 I believe. I keep 7 with double Daze, Null Rod, Cage, Ponder, two lands. I play turn 1 Cage. He plays turn 1, Lotus petal, Dark Rit and I Daze. He pitches ESG to pay, Ritual, Belcher, pass turn. I draw, replay land and pass, sweating. He draws and passes. I play second land, drop Null Rod. He reads it and scoops. He said he had a Cabal Ritual, so if I hadn't Dazed he would have won. Yep...

Game 3: He mulls to 6 again, I think. I can't remember if I kept 6 or 7, but I have Surgical and Ponders. He turn 1 passes. I play an land and Ponder, shuffling and drawing I think another Ponder. On his turn he plays a Petal and Therapies me, naming Force, missing, then passes. I fade the Force coolly and pass. He goes for it, Petal, Ritual, Summoners Pact, Informer and I Force the creature. He Pact of Negations, so it resolves. Thinking about it now, he should have just stopped, knowing I had the Surgical. Maybe he fades a Pact and wins (he couldn't know, but another Surgical was on the op of my library)? Instead he pops the Informer off a SSG, flips his deck and with Narco triggers on the stack, I surgical them. He scoops. Whew...

Round 6: Miracles

Game 1: I keep what seems like a reasonable hand, Delver and some cantrips. It never comes together though, he has all the Swords to Plowshares. Then Entreats for a whole bunch, blocks my Delver to death and I lose to Angels.

Game 2: I lock out Top and it sets him far back. I hit him with a couple Wastelands and he can't get on track. I land Library, then Lili, then Goyf, then using the life from Swords on my Goyf, draw Deathrites and whittle his life total down, while Lili goes ultimate and deals with another Jace.

Game 3: I unfortunately keep a hand with a Deathrite, a Ponder, a Decay, a Needle, Winter Orb and 2 lands. He mulls to 6 and turn 1 Plains. I turn 1 Needle. He plays a Mystic Gate and passes. I play a Deathrite, he Counterspells. On his turn he fetches, get Volc and plays Blood Moon. I frown. 15 minutes on the clock. I can play the Winter Orb and try to draw it out, but I decide to just scoop. We both know I lost there and I know Shane can win in 15 minutes, so I am not going to sit and count a minute each turn on what to discard.

Round 7: High Tide

Game 1: He mulls to 6. I have no idea what I kept, but he plays turn 1 Island, Probe, Brainstorm, scoop. OK, second time today.

I think to myself, is this one maybe the High Tide guy? I do it again and board in, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, and Clique for Decays.

Game 2: I keep 7 with a Hymn, 2 Lands, a Delver, Force and Ponder and Goyf. He Preordains. I play a land and play Delver. Another Island for him and he Prordains again. I draw and play a fetch, get a Bayou and Hymn, he Forces, so I Force back. I hit a Time Spiral and a High Tide. He draws and passes. I draw something irreverent, probably a land and play a Goyf. He plays another land and passes. I think Delver still had not flipped and Goyf was only a 3/4. I remember that I Hymned him again and he Cunning Wished for a Flusterstorm and countered the Hymn. I think my next turn I played a Liliana and he scooped.

Round 8: UWR Stoneblade (I think, I never saw a Delver from him)

Game 1: I'm fast out the gate with Delver, Double Goyf. He resolves a True Name. Here's where the game got out of hand. Mind you, it's round 8, so I am definitely tired and my head is pounding. Goyf was only a 2/3 at this point, because Swords had dealth with my creatures and only lands were in the yards with Instants. I play a Ponder to pump Goyf, shuffle and draw, then swing. He blocks one and takes 3. He takes his turn, draws and passes. I draw and attack. He plays Snapcaster, so I Brainstorm and while doing so, he looks at my lands and asks how did I pay for the Ponder. I get totally confused and tap another land for it, even though I felt like I had played it earlier. I find a Decay on the Brainstorm, but now I can't play it on the Snapcaster. We briefly discuss the Ponder issue and since we both don't understand why the other is confused, we get no where and I just give up, lose my Goyf to a double block and then lose to True-Name, when I should have just called the Judge. After the game I realize what happens and explain it to my opponent. I think he realizes what happened then too, but it's too late to do anything.

Board out Forces for Disfigures and a Clique.

Game 2: Very hazy on what happened in this game, but I win.

Game 3: He mulls to 5, gets his second land Wasted, I kill Stoneforge, I land Library, Lili, Goyf, and it's over.

I guess maybe that last bit was something of Karma. I am pretty sure if I don't tap that extra land, I Decay the Snapcaster and win the race with True-Name, because I did draw a Delver after a couple turns, but with no Goyf, it didn't matter. I didn't have any hard feelings toward my opponent, I had no feeling that he did anything purposely, I think we were both tired and misconstrued the situation. It was really my own fault for not just calling a Judge over, because it would have given us the time we needed to realize why we were both confused.

Props:
Aaron for driving.
Jacob for making the plans.
Jason for letting me steal his phone charger (and getting 13th place).
Hymn to Tourach for being a damn good Magic card.
My wife for not caring about Valentines Day.

Slops:
Garbage ass Motel 6, didn't even have shampoo.
Me, for forgetting my phone charger.
Convention center Starbucks for not opening until 9, the same time the tournament started.
Cracker Barrel for having the B kitchen team on.
Construction near Beaumont that meant I got home in time for only 2 hours of sleep.

As I said before, the decklist is not constructed optimally. As it turns out though, sometimes you just Hymn your opponent and you win.

First, I had 4 Force of Will, in fact, until the Legacy Challenge I could have sworn I did. I only found the 4th after looking for about 15 minutes on my desk at home. I have no idea when or why I cut it to be honest.

Dimir Charm is not really suited for the wide meta, but if you see Elves often, I think it is reasonable because a removal spell that can counter Natural Order or Glimpse is pretty decent.

I think my sideboard was very good and in retrospect, I don't think I would change anything there. Winter Orb is quite real. I board it in versus Miracles, but also versus Lands and 12-Post (Turbo Eldrazi, whatever the kids call it now-a-days). The weakest slot was BEB and it's just a minor hedge against Burn that can sometimes be useful versus Sneak and Show.

On the Hymn versus Stifle debate, I think they are opposite side's of the same coin. The deck looks to deplete an opponent of resources, Hymn as cards in hand, and Stifle mainly as mana. Both have upsides, but I choose to run Hymn mainly because I just like the card better. In addition, I think Hymn offers you a 2-1, at the risk of sometimes being dead in the late game. Since we don't much want to be in the late game, I am willing to trade that off.

On Delve creatures, I think they are good, but I was expecting Miracles and so they are not very good versus Swords, Jace and RiP. I find Clique to be a great "extra threat" since it can do so much in different matchups (but mainly Miracles).

[sdematt]

This is what I played last night on my janky cockatrice "streaming" session:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Murderous Cut

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Only ended up playing against Patriot Delver due to time constraints, but the list felt really good.

-Matt

[H]

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Only ended up playing against Patriot Delver due to time constraints, but the list felt really good.

-Matt

Maindeck looks good, although, I personally wouldn't foray into 14 creature territory. Our chance of flipping Delver is already lower than I'd like to be honest.

On the sideboard, I would probably make one Cage into a Surgical. My reasoning would be that 2 Cages only makes you a tiny bit better versus Elves, but does nothing to help you versus decks with Punishing Fire and/or Loam. Then again, my local meta does cloud that, because we could have 4+ Lands players at any given time and more from the other side of the state at other times.

[KobeBryan]

Maindeck looks good, although, I personally wouldn't foray into 14 creature territory. Our chance of flipping Delver is already lower than I'd like to be honest.

On the sideboard, I would probably make one Cage into a Surgical. My reasoning would be that 2 Cages only makes you a tiny bit better versus Elves, but does nothing to help you versus decks with Punishing Fire and/or Loam. Then again, my local meta does cloud that, because we could have 4+ Lands players at any given time and more from the other side of the state at other times.

I actually like the 14 creature build since it helps our jund, junk, matchup tremendously.

I do agree that we do not run enough spells to flip delver, but the only options to take out right now is sylvan library and lily, but both are needed.

Maybe we should venture into removing delver.

[Asthereal]

Has anyone tried Green Sun's Zenith as our 13th/14th creature?
Flips Delver, finds Deathrite when it's good or simply finds Goyf for a mana more.
Seems worth a try.

[alastair]

Maybe we should venture into removing delver.

Every time I head down this route I end up in a almost creatureless Ctrl build, maybe with 1-3 Snapcaster and/or Clique. Sticking with the creature plan sans Delver really slows you down to a firm mid-late game, which is a worse strategy than Shardless or Jund; giving up the double Delver free wins.

I like the Ctrl BUG lists, but you run the same risks as Miracles re: the clock, without the ability to Entreet and just get there. But sometime the desire to Loam and grind just takes over.

Whilst blasphemy to many, I have ditched DRS for a while in testing. Unsure at present, but sometimes a squire with cute abilities is still just a squire; when for one more B you get a 5/5 flyer.

[Fallacy]

Maybe we should venture into removing delver.

I get this, but there are many times where Delver just flies over the ground game ignoring those creatures, and that could hinder our already poor MU's against decks like D&T, Maverick, and Elves. I've been toying with Tasigur lately and I'm leaning towards going back to Tombstalker for that same reason, he just ignores the ground game and establishes a good clock.

[KobeBryan]

Every time I head down this route I end up in a almost creatureless Ctrl build, maybe with 1-3 Snapcaster and/or Clique. Sticking with the creature plan sans Delver really slows you down to a firm mid-late game, which is a worse strategy than Shardless or Jund; giving up the double Delver free wins.

I like the Ctrl BUG lists, but you run the same risks as Miracles re: the clock, without the ability to Entreet and just get there. But sometime the desire to Loam and grind just takes over.

Whilst blasphemy to many, I have ditched DRS for a while in testing. Unsure at present, but sometimes a squire with cute abilities is still just a squire; when for one more B you get a 5/5 flyer.

I think DRS is the mvp in this deck. I would not leave home with less than 4. I would play 8 if i can.

[KobeBryan]

I get this, but there are many times where Delver just flies over the ground game ignoring those creatures, and that could hinder our already poor MU's against decks like D&T, Maverick, and Elves. I've been toying with Tasigur lately and I'm leaning towards going back to Tombstalker for that same reason, he just ignores the ground game and establishes a good clock.

Thats why i've been liking mandrills more than the tasigur.

People been plowing hootings more than tasigur when both are on the board.

[Fallacy]

I forgot to mention, I've also been testing with 19 lands to boost spell count by 1... it's something :smile:

So far it seems do-able, for the Hymn build that is.

[KobeBryan]

I forgot to mention, I've also been testing with 19 lands to boost spell count by 1... it's something :smile:

So far it seems do-able, for the Hymn build that is.

I've been doing that.

19 is fine as is. Just make sure you have 4 seas instead of a fetch.

[KobeBryan]

This is what I played last night on my janky cockatrice "streaming" session:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Murderous Cut

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Only ended up playing against Patriot Delver due to time constraints, but the list felt really good.

-Matt

DId you not find having 3 delve cards to be overwhelming. The only reason TC worked was because it gave you more cards and puts itself in the GY

[H]

Has anyone tried Green Sun's Zenith as our 13th/14th creature?
Flips Delver, finds Deathrite when it's good or simply finds Goyf for a mana more.
Seems worth a try.

I might just try that in a 20 land build. I'm not sure it'll be good though. I think if I'd go that route though, I'd want some kind of creature with some utility to find. Maybe Scavenging Ooze. Probably makes the whole deck worse though.


Every time I head down this route I end up in a almost creatureless Ctrl build, maybe with 1-3 Snapcaster and/or Clique. Sticking with the creature plan sans Delver really slows you down to a firm mid-late game, which is a worse strategy than Shardless or Jund; giving up the double Delver free wins.

I like the Ctrl BUG lists, but you run the same risks as Miracles re: the clock, without the ability to Entreet and just get there. But sometime the desire to Loam and grind just takes over.

Whilst blasphemy to many, I have ditched DRS for a while in testing. Unsure at present, but sometimes a squire with cute abilities is still just a squire; when for one more B you get a 5/5 flyer.

I've played BUG Landstill for a good while before and the clock is definitely an issue. So is the fact that our best sweeper, Deed, invalidates a lot of the best hate/answers we can play (Null Rod, Library, etc.).

One reason why Delver is often better is because it's usually better to just kill them, rather than keep them from killing you.

[Asthereal]

I might just try that in a 20 land build. I'm not sure it'll be good though. I think if I'd go that route though, I'd want some kind of creature with some utility to find. Maybe Scavenging Ooze. Probably makes the whole deck worse though.
The idea of the toolbox is tempting, but it seems just wrong to me. I'd only try Zenith as a fifth/sixth Goyf that can perhaps also be a Deathrite if the situation asks for it (read: against Canadian Thresh or Grave strategies). I'm not saying it's the solution to everything, but it seems Zenith is the 13th/14th creature slot with the least drawbacks, so I was curious whether anyone had already tested it before I invest time into it.

[edahl]

Hi! I'm looking to play BUG Delver in a local tourney, but haven't got a lot of experience with the deck aside from copying Jim Davis' recent list and doing pretty well. I'm thinking of running something like this, but it appears slightly off standard.

Instant (21)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Disfigure
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle

Sorcery (6)
1x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
1x Thoughtseize

Planeswalker (1)
1x Liliana of the Veil

Land (18)
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland

Creature (14)
2x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
4x Tarmogoyf

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Murderous Cut
1x Null Rod
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vendilion Clique

[btm10]

I've been doing that.

19 is fine as is. Just make sure you have 4 seas instead of a fetch.

I actually prefer the 3/2/2 split, but my list is about as greedy as it gets color-wise.


The idea of the toolbox is tempting, but it seems just wrong to me. I'd only try Zenith as a fifth/sixth Goyf that can perhaps also be a Deathrite if the situation asks for it (read: against Canadian Thresh or Grave strategies). I'm not saying it's the solution to everything, but it seems Zenith is the 13th/14th creature slot with the least drawbacks, so I was curious whether anyone had already tested it before I invest time into it.

I get wanting a 13th threat that also flips Delver, but I feel like Unearth and Reanimate fill that role better while not costing as much as GSZ, playing well with Hymn/Thoughtseize, and having random bonus utility like stealing an opposing value creature like Strix or Snapcaster.


Hi! I'm looking to play BUG Delver in a local tourney, but haven't got a lot of experience with the deck aside from copying Jim Davis' recent list and doing pretty well. I'm thinking of running something like this, but it appears slightly off standard.

Your list seems like a mishmash of the Stifle build and the Hymn build and I guess I don't endorse that. I definitely don't like Liliana without the core 3-5 Thoughtseize/Hymn supporting her - a lot of her power comes from keeping opponents hellbent once she's helped stabilize the board and it's hard to get people hellbent when Liliana just takes their draw step. Also 18 lands on 3 Sea/2Trop/1 Bayou makes a BB 3-drop pretty rough.

[edahl]

I actually prefer the 3/2/2 split, but my list is about as greedy as it gets color-wise.



I get wanting a 13th threat that also flips Delver, but I feel like Unearth and Reanimate fill that role better while not costing as much as GSZ, playing well with Hymn/Thoughtseize, and having random bonus utility like stealing an opposing value creature like Strix or Snapcaster.



Your list seems like a mishmash of the Stifle build and the Hymn build and I guess I don't endorse that. I definitely don't like Liliana without the core 3-5 Thoughtseize/Hymn supporting her - a lot of her power comes from keeping opponents hellbent once she's helped stabilize the board and it's hard to get people hellbent when Liliana just takes their draw step. Also 18 lands on 3 Sea/2Trop/1 Bayou makes a BB 3-drop pretty rough.

I should maybe cut the mainboard Thoughtseize and Hymn for something like a TNN and a Dimir Charm, or a TNN and a Bayou. My reasoning behind a single Liliana maindeck is that it's such a powerful effect that it can draw me out of awkward top-deck wars, as they are awkward indeed in a deck with Stifle+Daze+Waste. I don't necessarily want to curve into it, but at the same time it's not bad at all if I do. The idea is also that I can transform into more discard post board, in which case I guess I should definitely have the second Bayou and keep a second Liliana in the board.

[Emo]

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

[edahl]

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

Maybe swap it with Liliana and swap a Trop for Bayou? I have kinda the same experience with TNN, and BB or GG is often good. 1 non-blue land doesn't seem too bad even in a deck with Daze.

[Emo]

I agree with you that Lilianna definitely is feasible if the mana base is tweaked a bit

Here is my short list of 1 of cards (many haven't been tested but just came to mind)

Lilianna (BB problem)
Eternal witness (GG problem)
Dimir charm
monastery siege
Tasigur (cmc makes him iffy)
hypnotic spectre

[FoolofaTook]

I agree with you that Lilianna definitely is feasible if the mana base is tweaked a bit

Here is my short list of 1 of cards (many haven't been tested but just came to mind)

Lilianna (BB problem)
Eternal witness (GG problem)
Dimir charm
monastery siege
Tasigur (cmc makes him iffy)
hypnotic spectre

Do a Sylvan Library as a 1-of before you consider Monastery Siege.

[edahl]

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

A main deck Clique seems pretty nice. I'm considering cutting one bob for Liliana, have the second Liliana in the board with 3 Thoughtseizes, and add a Bayou md (upping the land count to 19 with 3 us, 3 trop, 1 bayou).

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Why did this deck get moved out of "Decks to Beat" thread?

[FoolofaTook]

Why did this deck get moved out of "Decks to Beat" thread?

There's a formula that looks at results over a specific time period and lists are promoted to and demoted from DTB based on the current survey. I don't recall the exact methodology but I'm pretty sure it is stickied in the DTB forum for your perusal.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

What makes a deck to beat?

A Deck to Beat is a deck which has at least 6.25% placements over the total Top 8 slots at 33+ person tournaments in the last month's tournaments (or the last ten tournaments, whichever is greater).

Should have done some more reading lol.

[Islandswamp]

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

I have the same list as jim davis on mtgo. I have mostly played my modified version lately, and I too have come to dislike True Name Nemesis. I moved the TNN to the sideboard, I figure if I need to bring it in against a removal heavy deck I can, but honestly, I might just cut it for something else if need be.

My choice to remove TNN had to do a lot with wanting a higher percentage chance to blind flip a delver. So, I basically made room for more instants or sorceries. I also don't own a Liliana of the Veil yet, but I'm working on getting one or more to test out.

This is my list that I modified, although I still have several others saved:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
1 Flooded Strand
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
3 Force of Will
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Disfigure
3 Dark Confidant

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Divert
1 Marsh Casualties

Please excuse the ordering of the cards, mtgo doesn't sort the names when you export your list as a text file.

If I start running into more combo decks that I already am, one more spell pierce would be added in the place of something, probably Dark Confidant or Disfigure. I really like having four Stifle, it's very handy, and having four gives it a higher chance of being effective.

[KobeBryan]

i think the best thing suggested so far is the 2 of unearth/reanimate.

I'm going to test the shit outta these two cards

[drocker23]

On the Hymn versus Stifle debate, I think they are opposite side's of the same coin. The deck looks to deplete an opponent of resources, Hymn as cards in hand, and Stifle mainly as mana. Both have upsides, but I choose to run Hymn mainly because I just like the card better. In addition, I think Hymn offers you a 2-1, at the risk of sometimes being dead in the late game. Since we don't much want to be in the late game, I am willing to trade that off.


I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.

I believe hymn is better served as a sideboard card that can be brought in in the match ups that you really want it against.

This way you can also get away with playing just 1 bayou instead of 2 and more copies of tropical island making it so that you have a much easier time casting your blue spells. Stifle aside I think it is way more important for this deck to be able to cast it's blue spells than it is to cast it's black ones. Whether it's casting delver on turn 1, or casting brainstorm or ponder with spell pierce backup, or having an actual island to bounce for Daze.

I don't think it's correct running 2 bayous and 1 tropical island in the hymn versions. Yes the hymn versions need the double black while also tapping for green for goyf, but I feel like you give up stability of your mana base as well as being able to cast your more important spells. Leave hymn in the sideboard where it belongs.

[btm10]

I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.
.

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. What's Hymn bad against other than Reaninator and Dredge? Whenever I've tested the Stifle versions they've just felt underpowered compared to the Hymn versions.

[H]

I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.

I believe hymn is better served as a sideboard card that can be brought in in the match ups that you really want it against.

Of the 7 Decks to Beat on this board, I'd rather have Hymn over Stifle versus 5 of them, with 1 being what I could consider a push.

ANT, UWR Delver, UR, Omni-Tell, and RUG I would rather have Hymn, although versus RUG (and probably most builds of UR), neither Stifle nor Hymn is particularly good in my experience.

Versus Miracles, Stifle has some real good applications versus Miracles, but quickly removing their in hand resources puts them in a bad spot, especially if they don't have Top or you have locked it down.

I don't want Hymn versus Lands and Stifle could help if they go for Dark Depths, but that might only postpone the inevitable.

Continuing down the list:
Sneak and Show (Hymn)
Team America (I don't know, depends on how each player's draw comes together)
Grixis Control (probably Hymn)
Blade Control (Hymn, although Stifle could deal with SFM, but not very elegantly)
Death and Taxes (Neither is great, but I guess Stifle stays better longer)
Merfolk (I don't know if either is any good here, who still plays this?)
Deathblade (Hymn, Stifle is probably a bit worse here than against other Blade decks since DRS makes mana)
Elves (Both aren't great, but Stifle probably has more utility)
MUD (Chalice@1 is an issue, so probably Hymn)
Pox (Probably Stifle, Hymn seems bad)
Reanimator (Stifle)
Maverick (Neither seems very good, I guess Stifle has utility, Hymn can put them behind in the short game though)
BUG Control (another mirror? I don't know, probably Hymn)

That makes something like 6 decks I'd rather have Hymn, 3 where it's debatable or I'm not sure, and 4 where I feel it's clearly Stifle. That puts it at 11 for Hymn, 5 for Stifle, and 4 where I'd really not be sure. Even if I am wrong on a few of there, I can't see how Hymn is "a lot worse." At worst, it's a coin flip that depends on your meta.

I'm not sure which decks you are talking about that would make the amount of decks where Hymn is bad "a lot higher" but Hymn is also often very good versus random strategies.

Don't misconstrue my meaning though, it's not bad or wrong to run Stifle. In fact, it can be quite good, but so can Hymn.

[edahl]

Of the 7 Decks to Beat on this board, I'd rather have Hymn over Stifle versus 5 of them, with 1 being what I could consider a push.

ANT, UWR Delver, UR, Omni-Tell, and RUG I would rather have Hymn, although versus RUG (and probably most builds of UR), neither Stifle nor Hymn is particularly good in my experience.

Versus Miracles, Stifle has some real good applications versus Miracles, but quickly removing their in hand resources puts them in a bad spot, especially if they don't have Top or you have locked it down.

I don't want Hymn versus Lands and Stifle could help if they go for Dark Depths, but that might only postpone the inevitable.

Continuing down the list:
Sneak and Show (Hymn)
Team America (I don't know, depends on how each player's draw comes together)
Grixis Control (probably Hymn)
Blade Control (Hymn, although Stifle could deal with SFM, but not very elegantly)
Death and Taxes (Neither is great, but I guess Stifle stays better longer)
Merfolk (I don't know if either is any good here, who still plays this?)
Deathblade (Hymn, Stifle is probably a bit worse here than against other Blade decks since DRS makes mana)
Elves (Both aren't great, but Stifle probably has more utility)
MUD (Chalice@1 is an issue, so probably Hymn)
Pox (Probably Stifle, Hymn seems bad)
Reanimator (Stifle)
Maverick (Neither seems very good, I guess Stifle has utility, Hymn can put them behind in the short game though)
BUG Control (another mirror? I don't know, probably Hymn)

That makes something like 6 decks I'd rather have Hymn, 3 where it's debatable or I'm not sure, and 4 where I feel it's clearly Stifle. That puts it at 11 for Hymn, 5 for Stifle, and 4 where I'd really not be sure. Even if I am wrong on a few of there, I can't see how Hymn is "a lot worse." At worst, it's a coin flip that depends on your meta.

I'm not sure which decks you are talking about that would make the amount of decks where Hymn is bad "a lot higher" but Hymn is also often very good versus random strategies.

Don't misconstrue my meaning though, it's not bad or wrong to run Stifle. In fact, it can be quite good, but so can Hymn.

I think most of the midrange/control mathcups you mention you probably want Hymn, like Blade and BUG control, is the very reason we want Stifle. These decks want little to nothing more than to make land drops (and shuffle their Brainstorms). Stifle is, after all, a 1-mana replacement for Team America's BB Sinkhole.

[H]

I think most of the midrange/control mathcups you mention you probably want Hymn, like Blade and BUG control, is the very reason we want Stifle. These decks want little to nothing more than to make land drops (and shuffle their Brainstorms). Stifle is, after all, a 1-mana replacement for Team America's BB Sinkhole.

The problem is, when hitting their lands, if they just play more, you've done nothing. Also, Stifling their SFM is pretty bad if they happen to have an equipment in their hand. I'd rather (literally) roll the dice and try to hit the TNN and/or equipment in their hand, than Stifle them and pray they don't draw a third land and just play TNN. Versus Deathblade it's even worse, since if they play an early Deathrite it makes mana denial a much worse proposition.

Again, these are my interpretations, if you feel that Stifle is better there, so be it. However, saying that Hymn is "a lot worse" doesn't really stand to reason, since Hymn is still good versus a bunch of the meta.

[Manipulato]

I tested the Stifle version a bit against DnT & Storm.

Against DnT Stifle is strict better and more flexible than Hymn but I lost most games against them no matter if stifle or hymn, so....

Against Storm Stifle were not really great, sure I could stifle a couple of fetches but thats it...Hymn would have won me all games...Attacking them from different angles is the way to victory.

Also the Stifle build is really more difficult to play and needs always perfect decisions and good timing which can be exhausting in longer turneys.

So I´m back on the Hymn train now.

[edahl]

The problem is, when hitting their lands, if they just play more, you've done nothing. Also, Stifling their SFM is pretty bad if they happen to have an equipment in their hand. I'd rather (literally) roll the dice and try to hit the TNN and/or equipment in their hand, than Stifle them and pray they don't draw a third land and just play TNN. Versus Deathblade it's even worse, since if they play an early Deathrite it makes mana denial a much worse proposition.

Again, these are my interpretations, if you feel that Stifle is better there, so be it. However, saying that Hymn is "a lot worse" doesn't really stand to reason, since Hymn is still good versus a bunch of the meta.

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

@Manipulato: Did you get occasion to Stifle the storm trigger? :)

[Manipulato]

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

@Manipulato: Did you get occasion to Stifle the storm trigger? :)

It´s difficult to hold up/surprise with stifle when your opponent has Duress, Cabal Therapy & Gitaxian Probe :wink:

[H]

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

I don't disagree, RUG has been doing it for years and I'm not trying to hate on Stifle at all. This conversation started with me saying that Stifle and Hymn are both good, they just do things differently. Milage is also going to depend on the local meta and play-style. For me, I'd rather play more of a tap-out style, but that is my preference. I have found I win a lot more often when I play Hymn than when I don't (but I admit, I have never played Stifle in BUG).

I respect Jim Davis, he is a much better player than me and probably a much better deck-builder. However, I see real issues with his Stifle build; mainly that you have fewer ways to truly capitalize on the tempo you gain, because your Delvers don't flip as consistently as RUG's and you don't have Lightning Bolt.

I know you wouldn't say Hymn is "a lot worse" that was drocker23, :cool:

I know if seemed as if I was making the case that Hymn is better than Stifle, but that wasn't my intention at all. It was to present a theory that Hymn is at least as good as Stifle.

[Esper3k]

I tested the Stifle version a bit against DnT & Storm.

Against DnT Stifle is strict better and more flexible than Hymn but I lost most games against them no matter if stifle or hymn, so....

Against Storm Stifle were not really great, sure I could stifle a couple of fetches but thats it...Hymn would have won me all games...Attacking them from different angles is the way to victory.

Also the Stifle build is really more difficult to play and needs always perfect decisions and good timing which can be exhausting in longer turneys.

So I´m back on the Hymn train now.

I disagree that Stifle is strictly better than Hymn vs DnT. Having no cantrips to smooth their draw, while DnT generates consistency through redundancy, it's still fundamentally just reliant on whatever is randomly coming off the top of their library. Second, DnT also does not generate much card advantage. When you Hymn them, you both increase the inconsistency of their deck while also reducing their long term options (by generating card advantage for yourself).

[edahl]

@H Haha, Stifle being more difficult to play makes consider Hymning on days where I haven't had coffee :P. That said I do miss Bolt from RUG and love this list to death http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15927&iddeck=118742

@Manipulato, yeah, thought about that just after I wrote it, heh. It does happen though!

My tourney being in a couple of hours I've more or less settled on this:

md:
1 Liliana
3 Bob
4 shaman, goyf, delver
2 disfigure
3 decay
3 force
4 ponder
4 bs
2 spell pierce
4 daze, stifle, wasteland
3 underground sea
2 trop
1 bayou
8 fetches

sb:
1 force
1 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
1 liliana
1 vendilion clique
1 divert
1 maelstrom pulse
1 decay
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
1 null rod
1 surgical
2 cage

[H]

I disagree that Stifle is strictly better than Hymn vs DnT. Having no cantrips to smooth their draw, while DnT generates consistency through redundancy, it's still fundamentally just reliant on whatever is randomly coming off the top of their library. Second, DnT also does not generate much card advantage. When you Hymn them, you both increase the inconsistency of their deck while also reducing their long term options (by generating card advantage for yourself).

Except post-board if they have Wilt-Leaf Liege in their deck, :eek::laugh:

Happened to me at the Legacy Challenge actually, I think I lost that game but won the third.

[Esper3k]

Except post-board if they have Wilt-Leaf Liege in their deck, :eek::laugh:

Happened to me at the Legacy Challenge actually, I think I lost that game but won the third.

Yeah, but it shows how scary Hymn is to them!

I usually board out my Lilianas vs DnT and leave in my Hymns just because it's still so powerful against them (even with the risk of Liege).

[H]

Yeah, but it shows how scary Hymn is to them!

I usually board out my Lilianas vs DnT and leave in my Hymns just because it's still so powerful against them (even with the risk of Liege).

I usually leave my Lilianas in. I always start by boarding out Force and I usually board out a number of Daze. I guess that might be incorrect though. I feel like Liliana is still decent versus them, since in post-board games they will usually try not to extend out into a Charm. I feel like the value of Daze really drops off versus them after turn 2 or so.

[Esper3k]

I usually leave my Lilianas in. I always start by boarding out Force and I usually board out a number of Daze. I guess that might be incorrect though. I feel like Liliana is still decent versus them, since in post-board games they will usually try not to extend out into a Charm. I feel like the value of Daze really drops off versus them after turn 2 or so.

It's been awhile since I've played the deck and the matchup, but I remembered ultimately not liking Liliana as much since they tend to have multiple crappy little creatures while at the same time you guarantee enable their WLL if they have it in their hand. On top of that, if they have Aether Vial active, I've found Liliana oftentimes still not very effective when you get them down to 0 cards in hand (they pop in their dude in response to your +1, etc.).

I might keep some Lilianas in if they have a particularly heavy Mirran Crusader build.

I remember boarding out my Lilianas and a mix of FoW/Dazes (depending on if I'm on the play or draw) and just bring in all the removal + Cliques + Krosan Grips I have from the board.

[btm10]

It's been awhile since I've played the deck and the matchup, but I remembered ultimately not liking Liliana as much since they tend to have multiple crappy little creatures while at the same time you guarantee enable their WLL if they have it in their hand. On top of that, if they have Aether Vial active, I've found Liliana oftentimes still not very effective when you get them down to 0 cards in hand (they pop in their dude in response to your +1, etc.).

I might keep some Lilianas in if they have a particularly heavy Mirran Crusader build.

I remember boarding out my Lilianas and a mix of FoW/Dazes (depending on if I'm on the play or draw) and just bring in all the removal + Cliques + Krosan Grips I have from the board.

My thoughts on this exactly. I tend to favor leaving in 1-2 Forces if I leave in countermagic at all, but I usually just turn into Jund with Delvers against D&T.

[Esper3k]

My thoughts on this exactly. I tend to favor leaving in 1-2 Forces if I leave in countermagic at all, but I usually just turn into Jund with Delvers against D&T.

Yup. Blue Jund is exactly how I like to play it too. Just try and get them to where they're in topdeck mode and let our more consistent deck (go go Brainstorm/Ponder) take it from there.

[edahl]

I took my above list to a local tournament. I went 1-1-1 against RUG, Miracles, and DTT control respectively so not a great showing. I felt like I may have been able to win the draw against miracles, but it went to time. Against DTT control I was unlucky with mulligans and made a huge derp that tilted away the rest of my game. I seem to have problems with control, though my newly acquired Clique seemed strong. It may be that I simply make mistakes in longer games, but I don't feel confident with sideboarding and general game plan either. How do you guys approach the match-up? How would you side? Got any good reference matches on video, or articles?

[drocker23]

Maybe it's different because I was playing miracles, but whenever I played the DnT matchup, I would leave Force of Will in so I could counter mainly Aether Vial. because my deck couldn't really do much in the way of Vial and Cavern of Souls. Maybe it's different with Delver, but I hope that helps some.

[Asthereal]

Maybe it's different because I was playing miracles, but whenever I played the DnT matchup, I would leave Force of Will in so I could counter mainly Aether Vial. because my deck couldn't really do much in the way of Vial and Cavern of Souls. Maybe it's different with Delver, but I hope that helps some.
Very different. Miracles has CounterTop, and so countering Vial is much more important.
For us it's a completely different decision tree.

[H]

I took my above list to a local tournament. I went 1-1-1 against RUG, Miracles, and DTT control respectively so not a great showing. I felt like I may have been able to win the draw against miracles, but it went to time. Against DTT control I was unlucky with mulligans and made a huge derp that tilted away the rest of my game. I seem to have problems with control, though my newly acquired Clique seemed strong. It may be that I simply make mistakes in longer games, but I don't feel confident with sideboarding and general game plan either. How do you guys approach the match-up? How would you side? Got any good reference matches on video, or articles?

I'm not sure what DTT control is but versus Miracles game 1 can be very rough. If they start on Top you will probably lose that game. If you notice it slipping away, just scoop, you'll need the time to win game 2 and 3.

In the post-board games, it really depends on what you have brought in. You must lock down Top. Without it, they are not a not-so-good control deck, since their options are much more limited. This is why I play Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Winter Orb. I also play every game as if Terminus is on the top of their library. In other words, I will limit myself to one creature at a time, never offering the 2-1. If you play Liliana and/or Library, these are priorities to land. They only play a couple answers to either and a sequence that lets you resolve a Delver, into Library, into Lili can be game winning, although it is still a grind. I try to save my counters for Entreat, because we can draw more threats after a Terminus, but a sizable Entreat is almost certainly game.

In the end, it's about being patient. If you try to rush to kill them, they almost certainly will get you. You have to expect at least one Terminus every game. It's also about diverse threats, which is why Library and Liliana are so important. It is easy for them to dig to an answer to a single type of threat (Creature, Enchantment, Planeswalker) but if they have to answer 2 or 3 of those types, they are nowhere near as efficient.

Without knowing you list it's hard to give more detailed advice. I am also, not exactly an expert, but the matchup should favor us post-board, but can be very swingy when cards like Blood Moon enter the equation.

[Esper3k]

DTT control, I guess would be the Golddigger deck?

Against D&T, if we remove almost all our countermagic, we don't care too much about Aether Vial since we're on the "kill-all-their-guys" plan.

Also, if you do care, we can always Abrupt Decay it instead of 2 for 1ing ourselves.

[edahl]

Ah DTT control might not be so established yet, it's the U/W list by Carsten Kotter http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30178_Less-Treasure-More-Gifts.html. Also, thanks for the tips! I there were some essential differences to my play, I often try to rush to kill with catastrophic consequences. My list is on the previous page, though I'll go back to something closer to Jim Davis' list, cutting Liliana in the main for TNN (dropping the Bayou) and the Liliana in the board for Sylvan Library. Should help! I'll definitely also end my matches earlier when I feel like it's slipping because time is without exception an issue for me.

[Star|Scream]

Hey guys I'd really like to get better with this deck, but there's not a lot of legacy physically near me. So I'd like to test on Cockatrice. If anyone wants to test please pm me!! I'm available after 6pm EST

also see http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28984-Testing-Testing-123&highlight=cockatrice

[H]

Ah DTT control might not be so established yet, it's the U/W list by Carsten Kotter http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30178_Less-Treasure-More-Gifts.html. Also, thanks for the tips! I there were some essential differences to my play, I often try to rush to kill with catastrophic consequences. My list is on the previous page, though I'll go back to something closer to Jim Davis' list, cutting Liliana in the main for TNN (dropping the Bayou) and the Liliana in the board for Sylvan Library. Should help! I'll definitely also end my matches earlier when I feel like it's slipping because time is without exception an issue for me.

OK, I was thinking that might be what you were talking about, but I wasn't sure. I think the same principle applies though, generally.

I liken it as, "play quick, but don't be in a hurry." If that makes any sense, :laugh:

You need to establish some kind of inevitability. By staggering your threats, you can apply consistent pressure, because if you give them time, they are going to end up locking you out with Jace or something. Cutting Liliana for a TNN will definitely hurt your matchup versus Miracles. Liliana is great, because they run so few answers to a Planeswalker and she given you inevitability with her ultimate. True-Name can dodge StP, but still gets swept up by Terminus. I can't even begin to explain how great Library is. When then Swords a Goyf and you just go and draw 2 cards to replace him, they are in a bad spot.

[Esper3k]

Creeping Tar Pit is also a card some people will play to help with the Miracles matchup. Just make sure you don't run it into Terminus or StP if you can help it.

For me, I actually like TNN quite a bit against them since it allows you to drop just 1 threat on the board and you just force them to either Terminus it away or die.

As others have mentioned, to me their biggest threat is Top. It negates all our hand disruption and sets up their Miracles. If you can stop the Top, you significantly cripple their main strategy and the consistency of their deck.

[btm10]

Creeping Tar Pit is also a card some people will play to help with the Miracles matchup. Just make sure you don't run it into Terminus or StP if you can help it.

For me, I actually like TNN quite a bit against them since it allows you to drop just 1 threat on the board and you just force them to either Terminus it away or die.

As others have mentioned, to me their biggest threat is Top. It negates all our hand disruption and sets up their Miracles. If you can stop the Top, you significantly cripple their main strategy and the consistency of their deck.

I'd go so far as to say that Miracles is the biggest reason to run TNN at all in the Hymn version. I actually like Tar Pit even if I'm running TNN because you're likely to end up in the midgame even when you win and want all of your expensive spells (TNN, Clique, Liliana) and really don't want to tap out in the face of Miracles' Spell Pierces and Flusterstorms or take down your own Pierces/Flusters because of how important Jace and Entreat are. As far as counters, I'm torn about whether I want an MD Pierce or Dimir Charm, and Miracles and Shardless are really the only arguments for the Charm. While we're talking about Miracles, I've said this before, but it bears repeating - Zur's Weirding (out of the board, obviously) is an absolute house against them, especially if you're running Hymn. It's also got utility in A+B combo matchups (slower ones like Sneak and Show or Omni, not so much against Reanimator) and against decks like MUD or 12Post. I wouldn't run Weirding unless my meta were 25%+ Miracles though, as it is pretty narrow.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings,

I played in my LGS Legacy locals this week. I when 4-1 and ended 4th getting edged out of 3rd on tiebreakers. I played against Dan with 12 Post (2-0), Bobby with Sneak and Show (2-1), John with BUG Delver (0-2), Adam with Esper Stoneblade (2-1) and Guss with 12 Post (2-0). Overall the deck felt decent. Here is the list that I ran for reference:

Maindeck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique


Overall the list felt fine. The mirror match that I lost was likely due to keeping greedy hands. I kept 1-landers with cantrips and was Wasted both games. I was able to play a bit more in game two but after getting my opponent into topdeck mode, he drew live while I drew lands. I think this type of configuration is powerful, but the more I test out changes to my disruption package, the more I feel that I want a configuration of Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and possibly Thoughtseize. Hymn to Tourach just always feels lackluster to me. Prime example, the game that I lost in the Sneak and Show match, I resolve Hymn and hit a Show and Tell and a Sneak Attack. I die on the next turn to his remaining two cards and topdeck. On the topic of Tasigur, I cast him 4 times over the course of the evening and activated his ability once. I was given a Daze back and it was nearly dead... but it is fuel for either Brainstorm or Force of Will. I think I still need to do more testing but at the moment I am not sure if he is better or worse than Dark Confidant. I know that these two cards fill differing roles...


Card Advantage --- Middle Ground --- Aggressive
Dark Confidant --- Tasigur --- Goyf.

Tasigur hedges between the two options of Confidant and Goyf. I don't think that there is one single right answer, I think it comes down to how you build your deck and moreover I am not sure in my ideal configuration which option will prove to be better. What I am confident about is that I will need to keep playing Legacy to figure it out. Anyway, thanks for reading and I look forward to any comments!

[Fallacy]

Anyone playing Tombstalker these days (instead of Tasigur)? Seems good in the mirror against opposing Tasigur's, goyfs, and in general a real problem if left unchecked. He's got me out of many a games... thinking about bringing him off the bench :)

[H]

Anyone playing Tombstalker these days (instead of Tasigur)? Seems good in the mirror against opposing Tasigur's, goyfs, and in general a real problem if left unchecked. He's got me out of many a games... thinking about bringing him off the bench :)

I've played Tombstalker on and off, here and there. I rarely have a problem, except the usual grave-hate, Jace, and StP. His flying is always relevant as there are no creatures that are really played that can outclass him in the air.

[Griselpuff]

Went 7-2 in Baltimore, losing to Bant (bad luck imho, I beat it online) and Elves (bad match-up, didn't have enough SB cards).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80729

I also 4-0'd two Dailies with the same 75. Should see one of the video series on CFB soon. Confidant is better than Tombstalker right now, but I sided it out a lot too. I'm still utterly convinced that Hymn >>> Stifle. People also kept playing around Stifle against me, which is all the more reason not to play it. :cool:

[Fallacy]

Confidant is better than Tombstalker right now, but I sided it out a lot too.

Congrats! Curious, what's your reasoning for Bob being better than Stalker now? Would you say he's better positioned than Tasigur, too?

[Griselpuff]

Bob is better vs white fair decks and Combo (Miracles, StoneBlade), Tombstalker is better vs. non-white fair decks (RUG, Jund, Elves and Shardless). I would rather beat the former than the latter.

Btw, how do people generally SB vs. Elves? I have been cutting Hymns, but I'm not sure that is correct. I think it's a tough match-up, and Hymn is a do-nothing or win-the-game type of card, so maybe I should be playing it?

[HSCK]

Are you sure you're not playing Bob over Tombstalker because it's your name?

[Griselpuff]

Are you sure you're not playing Bob over Tombstalker because it's your name?

No.

[AngryTroll]

Bob is better vs white fair decks and Combo (Miracles, StoneBlade), Tombstalker is better vs. non-white fair decks (RUG, Jund, Elves and Shardless). I would rather beat the former than the latter.

Btw, how do people generally SB vs. Elves? I have been cutting Hymns, but I'm not sure that is correct. I think it's a tough match-up, and Hymn is a do-nothing or win-the-game type of card, so maybe I should be playing it?

Depending on how badly you want to beat Elves, Engineered Plague is incredibly good. I've been running two of them because Plague is reasonable against Death and Taxes (Human for Mother of Runes, Thalia, and to bring Crusader down to a more managable size).

[GoblinZ]

I think the list you play is the same as or very simliar to the winning list played at GP Paris last year?

[Fallacy]

Went 7-2 in Baltimore, losing to Bant (bad luck imho, I beat it online) and Elves (bad match-up, didn't have enough SB cards).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80729

I also 4-0'd two Dailies with the same 75. Should see one of the video series on CFB soon. Confidant is better than Tombstalker right now, but I sided it out a lot too. I'm still utterly convinced that Hymn >>> Stifle. People also kept playing around Stifle against me, which is all the more reason not to play it. :cool:

How often was Jace boarded in, and/or relevant?

Did your combo MU's perform OK w/o in the inclusion of Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm? Just wondering if the Thoughtseize's plus Fow's got you there.

[btm10]

Btw, how do people generally SB vs. Elves? I have been cutting Hymns, but I'm not sure that is correct. I think it's a tough match-up, and Hymn is a do-nothing or win-the-game type of card, so maybe I should be playing it?

-2-3 Daze, -2 Hymn, +2-3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm depending on how many Disfigures I decided to run. I don't like Daze much in the matchup, but keeping a decent blue count for Force is important. I agree that Hymn tends to feel quite polarized.

[Griselpuff]

Yeah I basically talked to Javier and tweaked his list. I personally don't like Jace, so he's getting cut for Golgari Charm. I missed having Stalker for decks like RUG and Elves, so I might try him in the SB. Not sure though, because he is worse post SB due to Submerge.

The combo match-ups are fine, I'm not sure you need Spell Pierce or Thoughtseize. Both cards are pretty meh. I also think the StoneBlade match-ups are good, so that's another reason to cut them.

[Fallacy]

Yeah I basically talked to Javier and tweaked his list. I personally don't like Jace, so he's getting cut for Golgari Charm. I missed having Stalker for decks like RUG and Elves, so I might try him in the SB. Not sure though, because he is worse post SB due to Submerge.

The combo match-ups are fine, I'm not sure you need Spell Pierce or Thoughtseize. Both cards are pretty meh. I also think the StoneBlade match-ups are good, so that's another reason to cut them.

So running 3 Golgari Charms SB? That's something I've been wanting to test to improve MU's against Elves and DnT.

Aside from the previous comments about Elves-hate, I'll mull down to find a Golgari Charm if needed :) I've seen them overextend themselves into a charm to get blown out. Helps if we have a flipped Delver of course!

[btm10]

So running 3 Golgari Charms SB? That's something I've been wanting to test to improve MU's against Elves and DnT.

Aside from the previous comments about Elves-hate, I'll mull down to find a Golgari Charm if needed :) I've seen them overextend themselves into a charm to get blown out. Helps if we have a flipped Delver of course!

I think I'd rather have the 3rd Disfigure or Maelstrom Pulse than the 3rd Charm. I also board in Disfigure in Delver mirrors because it kills DRS, SFM, Swiftspears, and (flipped) Delvers, and Charm isn't an answer to any of them.

[H]

Yeah I basically talked to Javier and tweaked his list. I personally don't like Jace, so he's getting cut for Golgari Charm. I missed having Stalker for decks like RUG and Elves, so I might try him in the SB. Not sure though, because he is worse post SB due to Submerge.

The combo match-ups are fine, I'm not sure you need Spell Pierce or Thoughtseize. Both cards are pretty meh. I also think the StoneBlade match-ups are good, so that's another reason to cut them.

Congratulations on the strong finish, I like the list. I really like that Confidant gives good reason to have Library in the side. Two Lilianas main is also good I have found. I want to ask how you felt about 20 lands though? Did that feel like a good number? I felt squeezed with only 19, but flooded with 20, but it could most certainly just have been variance.

A miser Spell Pierce is always neat to make them play around, since they often won't be sure if you are playing Stifle-Pierce or Hymn with miser Pierce. Often, if they hold a spell back you can take that time to hit them with a Hymn and rip the good stuff. That is one reason why I just went to 4 Hymn. Turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Hymn makes me happy happy. The fact that you had Confidants no doubt confused people even further, since they probably were expeccting Stifles (a la Jim Davis' build).

On Elves, I almost feel like their good, or great, draws are so bad for us that I'd almost rather just concede the matchup as unfavorable and keep precious board space open for matchups I can move to real positive. The number of times where I Charm out 3-4 Elves or more only to have them cast a Natural Order with the Deathrites it didn't kill or a Nettle Sentinal, or kill a bunch of Elves to only have them cast Glimpse and still draw a quarter of their deck anyway. Of course it depends on how often you see Elves, but since I usually only see them once per tournament, I feel like I'll take my chances with 2 Disfigures and 2 Charms or so.

[Fallacy]

Looking for some SB advice on Surgical Extraction. I have always played 2 GD Cage for gyard hate, and see some people are running 1 Cage and 1 Extraction. What's your experience on playing it, good or bad, and when to bring in? Is a split best or to run 1 of each, etc.?

[KobeBryan]

Looking for some SB advice on Surgical Extraction. I have always played 2 GD Cage for gyard hate, and see some people are running 1 Cage and 1 Extraction. What's your experience on playing it, good or bad, and when to bring in? Is a split best or to run 1 of each, etc.?

kills loam nasty lands bridge. And againat combo i get a peak of their hand after a hymn. Tgough i dont use surgical againat combo that much

[H]

Looking for some SB advice on Surgical Extraction. I have always played 2 GD Cage for gyard hate, and see some people are running 1 Cage and 1 Extraction. What's your experience on playing it, good or bad, and when to bring in? Is a split best or to run 1 of each, etc.?

Hits Loam and Punishing Fire. I never bring it in versus combo though. I would never go below 1, my list right now has 2 though, because Lands has been popular around here. I only play 1 Cage though.

[Esper3k]

I always brought it in vs combo since with our hand disruption, we stand a good chance of hitting a key piece and then stripping it out of their deck (say you strip all the SnT / Sneak Attack / Griselbrand / Emrakul out of a Sneaky Show deck, even removing one of those 4 pieces makes it much harder for them to combo off).

[iostream]

I tested Bob's list last night and it seems pretty sweet except for the Thoughtseizes, which really felt way too low impact against everything except Stoneforge Mystic decks. Has anyone tried running Pierce in the Hymn builds? I'm not sure if it's too crappy without the extra mana denial that Stifle provides.

[LarsLeif]

I tested Bob's list last night and it seems pretty sweet except for the Thoughtseizes, which really felt way too low impact against everything except Stoneforge Mystic decks. Has anyone tried running Pierce in the Hymn builds? I'm not sure if it's too crappy without the extra mana denial that Stifle provides.


I think that pierce is ok, but i would probably recommend switching the seizes and the disfigures in the board.

[H]

I think that pierce is ok, but i would probably recommend switching the seizes and the disfigures in the board.

Pierce is alright, but I wouldn't run more than 1-2. Indeed, without Stifle's mana denial, Pierce is not amazing, however, when people know you have Hymn, keeping cards back to wait for more mana often means having those cards just discarded. In those cases, they will often accelerate their plays, so Pierce can still have value.

It also opens the line of Turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Hymn + Pierce, which is great if you were on the play and they try to Brainstorm. I will Pierce that Brainstorm all day. If you have Daze there too it can be even more of a blowout and you might even catch a Daze with your own.

[Fallacy]

Confidant is better than Tombstalker right now, but I sided it out a lot too.

What MU's do you side Confidant out? Referring to Bob's list, as well as the GP Paris list from last year.

[KobeBryan]

What MU's do you side Confidant out? Referring to Bob's list, as well as the GP Paris list from last year.

shit like jund or maverick

[Fallacy]

shit like jund or maverick

Can you expand on that more, as I haven't had a lot of experience with Confidant in a diverse meta? Is this assessment correct:

Side out against: RUG, Jund, Elves, Maverick, and Shardless, ?
Keep in against: Miracles, D&T, Storm, UW Stoneblade, Esper Deathblade, Sneak & Show, Infect, ?

What about UWR Delver, mirror, and any notable others? Appreciate the feedback!

[H]

Well, the main thrust here is that you board out Confidant in the instances where your life total is not at liberty to be used as a resource.

That is rather abstract though, so more simply it can be stated as: board out Confidant where you are very likely to need to play a damage race and Confidant is unlikely to win that race for you.

In the case of Miracles, their clock is so slow that Confidant's cards are worth the life payed for them. Versus Combo decks, your life total is often not very relevant, since you are usually dead or not. You can't really "race" Storm, although sometimes the damage done can increase their clock, so use Confidant with caution. Versus decks like Omni-Tell or Show and Tell, again, you are usually either dead or not, so leveraging you life to try to find pressure/disruption is key. Blade decks are often set up for a grindy, midrange types of games, so Confidant can be good there too, since their clocks are slow but must be answered, the more cards you see, the better able you'll be to keep them off the offensive.

Versus anything Red based, it is probably best to take Confidant out. Too often can 6 life mean you are just dead.

I don't think I would side Confidant out versus Maverick or Death and Taxes though, but I may be wrong. I feel like we are favored in a damage race with them post board, because they really are not aggro or tempo decks at all, really creature-based control decks. Not only that, but Swords to Plowshares gives you a better ability to leverage a life-to-cards trade in your favor.

[iamajellydonut]

I'm actually very curious as to what Bob sided out Bob against. Because it's one thing to make the conscious choice to not run Dark Confidant, but once he's in the deck, there are usually very few reasons to move him out of the main.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm actually very curious as to what Bob sided out Bob against. Because it's one thing to make the conscious choice to not run Dark Confidant, but once he's in the deck, there are usually very few reasons to move him out of the main.
I agree. Even against Burn, drawing extra cards means more Goyfs to block, more removal for Eidolons, more counters for PoP. I can see the "life race" logic but... well, it's frigging Bob.

[btm10]

I agree. Even against Burn, drawing extra cards means more Goyfs to block, more removal for Eidolons, more counters for PoP. I can see the "life race" logic but... well, it's frigging Bob.

I think that Bob is debatable against Burn, and a lot of it is going to come down to playstyle/personal preference rather than 'right' or 'wrong'.

Personally, I can see why (especially if you're on the Stifle build) you'd want to keep him in, but I think he suffers from the same problems against Burn that Thoughtseize does. Just like Thoughtseize offers the intuitively appealing ability to trade 2 life for 3 by take bolt (or better if you snag Price, Fireblast, Eidolon, etc.), Burn rarely needs every point of available damage to kill you and you generally don't want to help them out at all. Just like Thoughtseize is really a 1-for-1/3 a lot of the time against Burn, the card economy on Bob is questionable. Even if you flip something like Hymn and that Hymn hits 2 Bolts/Chains/Spikes you're really only up 4 life and that's a pretty optimistic scenario.

[iamajellydonut]

Even if you flip something like Hymn and that Hymn hits 2 Bolts/Chains/Spikes you're really only up 4 life and that's a pretty optimistic scenario.

Correction: You're also up a Goblin Piker.

And that's the part that matters a lot. Yes, Thoughtseize is an awful card against Burn. No, losing 2 life does not help Thoughtseize's case in the slightest. However, even Duress is only a consolation-prize sideboard card against Burn. Reason being is that they don't end the game. Inevitability is always on Burn's side, and you need a way to present a clock and close out the game. If we had Magus of the Thoughtseize, I would run that card 24 hours a day against Burn because it would be both presenting a clock and stalling for time. Dark Confidant attacks. It blocks. It flips cards that can be used to keep you alive.

Dark Confidant is definitely not the best card against Burn. But in terms of looking at things to get rid of, crap like Thoughtseize definitely gets moved first. And considering how little is available in most sideboards to combat Burn and how much there is that needs to be ditched, Dark Confidant usually ends up staying right where it is.

[btm10]

Correction: You're also up a Goblin Piker.

And that's the part that matters a lot. Yes, Thoughtseize is an awful card against Burn. No, losing 2 life does not help Thoughtseize's case in the slightest. However, even Duress is only a consolation-prize sideboard card against Burn. Reason being is that they don't end the game. Inevitability is always on Burn's side, and you need a way to present a clock and close out the game. If we had Magus of the Thoughtseize, I would run that card 24 hours a day against Burn because it would be both presenting a clock and stalling for time. Dark Confidant attacks. It blocks. It flips cards that can be used to keep you alive.

Dark Confidant is definitely not the best card against Burn. But in terms of looking at things to get rid of, crap like Thoughtseize definitely gets moved first. And considering how little is available in most sideboards to combat Burn and how much there is that needs to be ditched, Dark Confidant usually ends up staying right where it is.

While I think you're overstating how relevant a 2/1 body is, I get what you're saying. My boarding against Burn is usually -2 Liliana, -1 Hymn, -1 Bob, +2 Disfigure, +2 Pierce/Fluster. And I don't mind losing the 14th threat nearly as much as I mind losing the Lilianas. We already have Goyf and Delver to pressure them, and they're usually spending the removal they have on Deathrite. I don't even run out the 1-of Bob I keep very often because he's a lower impact threat than Goyf or Delver.

[maharis]

I played shitty BUG delver again last night:

4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Tasigur
2 TNN
1 Dreadnought

4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Decay
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
1 Dimir Charm

8 blue fetches
4 Wasteland
4 Usea
3 Trop

2 Duress
1 Perish
1 Dread of Night
1 Spell Snare
1 Chill
1 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
7 other cards I don't remember. Sorry I have a baby and I'm at work, i'm super foggy from late night Legacy and don't have .

Went 2-2:
Rd 1 DnT 2-0, turns out they can't beat double TNN and Dreadnought game 1 with only 3 Moms and a Batterskull. Game 2 he led on plains-go, I had a DRS, he had a Horizon Canopy for his second land drop, I had a wasteland, thanks for coming.

Rd 2 UW Miracles 2-1. Only thing notable from the games was when I had Library out, Taz in play and on top of my deck. Played a fetch and passed so that I would bluff not wanting to shuffle my top card. At end of his turn I fetched, he plowed Taz with fetch on the stack, I activated Taz and dumped the other copy and the Delver into my GY of Brainstorm, Stifle, fetchland. He gave me Brainstorm. I ended up crafting a ridiculous hand off of Library and Brainstorm that turn and winning. Not sure why he didn't give me Stifle...

Rd 3 UWr miracles 0-2. This does matter as I had delvers pyroblasted in both games and he ended game 1 at 1 life and game 2 at 3 life. In game 2 I drew six cards off of Library, thanks to STP and zero pressure from his side. For some reason I left Dreadnought in and my last-gasp effort was a StifleNought when his hand was empty and he only had a top. He found a counterspell for Stifle and then a big entreat. I guess if I didn't have a library I would've had two turns to win but it's still insane to draw six extra cards in a game. In fact I could've just had stifle in my hand if i didn't tempt myself with the bug guy. ha.

Rd 4 was enchantress, I have played the same Enchantress guy in the last round of my last five events spread over three different decks (Nic Fit, Junk, and this) and I have only beaten him once. This one was a 1-2 loss. I am putting back to nature in my sideboard.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that Tas and Library are awesome.

[Requiem2]

Played in a 23 person local on Saturday in Portland and ended up taking down. I miss the power of hymn/lily/tasigur, but hate the clunky draws. I much prefer the tempo build of is deck to have a strong matchup against combo, our SB options really let us clear up other matchups. I played a version simaler to the Jim Davis list, but opted for 19 lands to not get mana screwed. Overall I think the deck is very well situated.

The SB is based on my meta, there are about 50 regulars about half of which will show up on a Saturday night. There are at least 7-10 D&T players. There are also 5-10 Storm players (some on Omni) and white and red prison strategies. So I new I wanted spell pierce, and really liked hymn at 2 copies. I wish i had one more TNN in the board, he fixes board state problems better than any other card in my 75, and punches he damage threw any wall. 2 bobs felt right, when I was playing 3 I ran into them a little to much. My removal was (3ad/2disfig) this may change to (4ad/1mc). My SB is creature removal heavy, I almost cut the deluge for a golgari charm, but on 19 lands win stifle to protect them, I was confidant it would be castable.

List:
19 Lands:
4usea/2trop/1bayou
4delta/2misty/2verdant

15 Creatures:
4drs/4delver/4tarmo
2bob/1tnn

26 Spells:
4bs/4ponder/
3ad/3stifle/3fow/3daze/
2disfig/2pierce/2hymn

SB:
2 dread of night
2 marsh casualties
2 grafdiggers
1 murderous cut
1 abrupt decay
1 toxic deluge
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 fow
1 vendilion
2 flusterstorm

Round 1: D&T 2-0
G1 - I establish control with delver beats and drs. I get a lot of removal and take out creatures and his jitte. He finds a plow and vials in crusader. He beats my face in crusader and revoker, dropping me to 4 life. I get TNN off the top, then disfigure. Drs activations then one strike with TNN and it's game.
G2. He plays t1 vial. I play t1 DRS. He ticks up and passes turn. I play t2 dread of night and delver, my hand is flush with removal and counter magic. He drops revoker on drs, and gets a mirran out, I take 2dmg miran beats twice until I let him overextend and marsh casualties his board.

Round 2: Elves 2-1
G1 I get a fast 2 delver clock going, he has half the combo online. I counter his visionary and swing in getting him to 5. He combos out with NO killing my soul.
G2 I have a lot of removal to bring and can cut the daze/stifle and other dead cards. I get a fast start abusing daze, t2 or t3 I hymn him and get cradle and NO. He isn't able to recover in time.
G3 he mulls to 5. However my hand is 2x fow blue cards but no removal. I can't remember what he plays t1, but I fow it. I drop a creature. He casts a symbiotic and and I fow it. I get some beats in. He drops and creature and the next turn goes off with NO. I immediately regret fow on my choices. He gets Ruric Thar, and I immediately feel the game slipping. It feels pretty rough to lose to his mull to 5. A viewer jokes, wow would be rough to cast toxic on that! And follows up sayin do u have murderous cut. Which is funny because my next topdeck is murderous cut. I take 6 and kill the legendary. I keep beating with tarmo, but he keeps bouncing his dryad, eventually it becomes a drs battle. He is able to double drs shenanigans to stabilize. I soon get a delver and grave is empty, very close game.

Round 3: Burn 2-1
G1 I feel pretty confidant since my list has more disruption than the older lists I have played. The game goes as planned, I drop drs and delver he burns drs and takes the hits from delver. I fow and pierce his 2 price of prog. He drops eidolon, I take a few hits, and were both under 5 life, he gets fire last for the kill.
G2 I get drs out and he searing blazes it. I drop another drs and he blazes it again. Next I drop tarmo, and next turn hymn him which does work. After this I'm stuck with 2 decay and disfigure in hand. But tarmo beats get me there.
G3 he plays guide, I have no removal so I force it. I play delver, he suspends a rift, and bolts me. I play tarmo, he then double burns it. I play another tarmo, and he searing blazes, and tries to bolt I counter the bolt. And ride tarmo to victory.

Round 4: Shardless Bug -ID- 2-0
We split however there is another 3-0 out paired down. We decide placing 1/2 or 2/3 is fine and decide to ID. We okay it out. I was hoping the stifles would shine in this matchup, but just find creatures and removal. Decay does work on his lily and tarmo. Delvers, fly above his agents. Can't remember the exact plays but it feels like that.
G2 we both drop creatures and remove each other's. We both cast tarmos, he decays mine. I take care of his. Eventually the board clogs up, he has agent and tarmo, and I have drs and tarmo. We both try use disfigure shenanigans to handle the other tarmo. And it feels like more tarmos keep getting cast. Eventually TNN drops and his walls of creatures can't handle drs activations and TNN swinging in.

[KobeBryan]

Can you expand on that more, as I haven't had a lot of experience with Confidant in a diverse meta? Is this assessment correct:

Side out against: RUG, Jund, Elves, Maverick, and Shardless, ?
Keep in against: Miracles, D&T, Storm, UW Stoneblade, Esper Deathblade, Sneak & Show, Infect, ?

What about UWR Delver, mirror, and any notable others? Appreciate the feedback!

I think i would only take it out against certain decks. Rug, jund, shardless, maverick, mirror and bring in the big tombstalker - reason for that is 1. rug's pyroclasm, jund's pyroclasm, and red bolts and shit, mirrors inability to remove a fatty tombstalker

everything else i rather have bob in.

[iamajellydonut]

Unless you're suggesting that you have Tombstalker in your sideboard, the question isn't "when is Tombstalker better?". We already know the answer to that.

[KobeBryan]

Unless you're suggesting that you have Tombstalker in your sideboard, the question isn't "when is Tombstalker better?". We already know the answer to that.

Wasn't that the discussion when they were talking about bringing stalker from the board.


Bob is better vs white fair decks and Combo (Miracles, StoneBlade), Tombstalker is better vs. non-white fair decks (RUG, Jund, Elves and Shardless). I would rather beat the former than the latter.

Btw, how do people generally SB vs. Elves? I have been cutting Hymns, but I'm not sure that is correct. I think it's a tough match-up, and Hymn is a do-nothing or win-the-game type of card, so maybe I should be playing it?

[Fallacy]

Wasn't that the discussion when they were talking about bringing stalker from the board.

I was wondering in general when do you side Bob out (assuming Tombstalker is not in SB). What MU's is he worth the card advantage for possible life loss postboard, that was my question. Seems the consensus is any white fair deck (DnT, UWR, UW blade, esper death blade, maverick), combo, and Miracles.

[o_boogie]

The only matchups I would consider siding Bob out are decks that pressure your life total very quickly. The ones that come to mind are Burn, UR Delver, and Zoo. Otherwise I would just leave him in.

[FoolofaTook]

The only matchups I would consider siding Bob out are decks that pressure your life total very quickly. The ones that come to mind are Burn, UR Delver, and Zoo. Otherwise I would just leave him in.

Bob still blocks things that will kill you otherwise and he removes his potential life loss in that situation. I've had Burn sit back and not attack with a Goblin Guide when I had Bob on the board because they wanted the potential damage off of Bob. Unless you have creatures in your SB or very effective instant speed removal Bob has to stay in against Burn.

[iamajellydonut]

And keep in mind that the drastic life loss due to Dark Confidant is a whopping 1.216 per flip in Bob's mainboard.

[Fallacy]

How does Team SB against Lands? I play the Hymn build, and here is my SB:

3 Disfigure
1 Spell Pierce
1 GD Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Golgari Charm
1 Hymn
1 Sylvan Library
1 Lily
1 Clique
1 FoW

I was thinking that bringing in 1 Cage, 1 Extraction, 2 Charm, 1 Needle, 1 Cage would be good, but not sure what to take out. Do I keep some counters in, or, do I remove counters and go heavy on discard?

[GoblinZ]

How does Team SB against Lands? I play the Hymn build, and here is my SB:


I was thinking that bringing in 1 Cage, 1 Extraction, 2 Charm, 1 Needle, 1 Cage would be good, but not sure what to take out. Do I keep some counters in, or, do I remove counters and go heavy on discard?

what does cage do in this mu? discard is not that efficient against loam engine.

[KobeBryan]

what does cage do in this mu? discard is not that efficient against loam engine.

Cage doesn't do anything. You just gotta surgical their asses and hope your drs is able to exile a loam.

[Fallacy]

what does cage do in this mu?

Nothing! Sorry, I copied and pasted wrong from my SB notes.

If discard is not a good plan, then is countering better? I have yet to face Lands, so just want to be prepared when I do.

[Fallacy]

Cage doesn't do anything. You just gotta surgical their asses and hope your drs is able to exile a loam.

Are you saving the 1-of Surgical for Loam only, or is it OK to nab a Punishing Fire for example?

[H]

Nothing! Sorry, I copied and pasted wrong from my SB notes.

If discard is not a good plan, then is countering better? I have yet to face Lands, so just want to be prepared when I do.

Counters are definitely better. Not that they are particularly good, but you can sometimes catch a spell or two here or there with counter-magic.


Are you saving the 1-of Surgical for Loam only, or is it OK to nab a Punishing Fire for example?

That's a large part of why I run 2 Surgicals. You pretty much have to hit both, although it depends on the board state ultimately.

[iamajellydonut]

Are you saving the 1-of Surgical for Loam only, or is it OK to nab a Punishing Fire for example?

Live in the moment, but it will mostly always be Loam so long as you're stuck at only one Surgical Extraction. It is their greatest enabler. They will find it, and they will bury you with it. With it, they can put you in really bad Wastelocks and inescapable Punishing Fire loops. Without it, at the very least, all of your Wastelands become actually live draws. Just beware that at any point they can cycle a land and remove Loam from the danger of Surgical Extraction.

Main Plans:

Land fattie like Goyf. They have troubles with dealing with such beasts since they can't shrink him and can't Punishing Fire him. However, they can indefinitely delay him via Maze of Ith and Glacial Chasm (fuck Tabernacle). So, most of your goal will be to find avenues to smack them upside the head with Goyf. Or two Goyfs.
Avoid getting Wastelocked.
Your own Wastelands, so long as they have Loam, are delaying tactics. Prevent them from making a fatass, and take out key lands EOT if you need breathing room for a turn.
Exploration is a pain in the ass. Kill it if you can.
Loam is the worst offender though
Use whatever you leave for counterspells very wisely. They're looking to grind you, so don't just counter shit for the sake of countering shit.
I gotta leave work and head home so that's all I got.

[KobeBryan]

Are you saving the 1-of Surgical for Loam only, or is it OK to nab a Punishing Fire for example?

You should always, always go for Loam first. You have wastelands to stop punishing. You have enough fatties like goyf to pound through.

This is a matchup where you would side out dark confidant.

Just an FYI, if you have an untapped DRS and they proceed to punishing fire it, you may exile it, though your DRS will die.

[iamajellydonut]

Just an FYI, if you have an untapped DRS and they proceed to punishing fire it, you may exile it, though your DRS will die.

What?

[KobeBryan]

What?

i've been told by some judge it works like the tarmogoyf rule...where you bolt a 2/3 goyf, but at resolution, its a 3/4 (pending no instants in gy).

It'd be nice to confirm. I never asked anyone after him cuz it didn't happen too often. Then again judges may be wrong as well since this one judge said I cannot just throw gilded drake in the yard if i do not exchange a creature (he was wrong, i wanted to exile all the bridge from belows)

[iamajellydonut]

i've been told by some judge it works like the tarmogoyf rule...where you bolt a 2/3 goyf, but at resolution, its a 3/4 (pending no instants in gy).

Either you didn't actually talk to a judge, you asked the wrong question, or that judge should be drawn and quartered on the grounds of being an utter imbicile.

Also, failure to use common sense, and an ignorance of the basic mechanics of state based actions and priority marks you as an accomplice.

That being said, this is yet another instance where you would not be likely to sideboard out Dark Confidant on the basis of higher priorities. Hymn to Tourach, some number of Dazes and Thoughtseizes, and sometimes Liliana, take far higher priority, and there's not usually much to stick in.

To further contradict your post, you don't always always always target Life from the Loam with Surgical Extraction. Not only is it impossible in some scenarios, but exiling Punishing Fire so that you can abuse Deathrite Shaman, or so that you can tick up Liliana or a miser's Jace, is is a very real play. So is exiling Dark Depths or whatever utility land may be in the way of setting sail with Goyf.

Taking out Loam is the common play, but it's far from the only play, and noting those times is what makes the difference between winning and losing.

[KobeBryan]

Either you didn't actually talk to a judge, you asked the wrong question, or that judge should be drawn and quartered on the grounds of being an utter imbicile.

Also, failure to use common sense, and an ignorance of the basic mechanics of state based actions and priority marks you as an accomplice.

That being said, this is yet another instance where you would not be likely to sideboard out Dark Confidant on the basis of higher priorities. Hymn to Tourach, some number of Dazes and Thoughtseizes, and sometimes Liliana, take far higher priority, and there's not usually much to stick in.

To further contradict your post, you don't always always always target Life from the Loam with Surgical Extraction. Not only is it impossible in some scenarios, but exiling Punishing Fire so that you can abuse Deathrite Shaman, or so that you can tick up Liliana or a miser's Jace, is is a very real play. So is exiling Dark Depths or whatever utility land may be in the way of setting sail with Goyf.

Taking out Loam is the common play, but it's far from the only play, and noting those times is what makes the difference between winning and losing.

That guy said its the tarmogoyf rule

You need to get the loam with surgical. Its fuels their deck 10x more than the punishing fire. Punishing fire can be stopped much more easily.

well of course you would board out thoughtseizes and dazes first. you may as well say i'm going to board in jace too. Even though i'm not sure its ran.

i just confirmed the rule. thanks for the clarification. That judge was wrong...same with the error about the gilded drake rule.

[Fallacy]

So in my case, against Lands it would be preferred to:

Side Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn, 4 Daze
Side In: 1 Extraction, 2 Charm, 1 Needle, 1 Pierce, 1 Lily, 1 Clique, 1 FoW, 1 Library

Would you agree with this assessment, that those boarding in seem better than those going out? Another way to say it, is that the boarding out are not really good against Lands, so anything marginally better should go in.

[iostream]

A question for Stifle pilots: Is Divert good enough to side in purely as a defensive counterspell versus decks that don't run "obvious" Divert targets (e.g. Abrupt Decay, StP, burn spells)? I'm never sure if I'm supposed to bring them in versus, say, combo decks.

[GoblinZ]

Counter is better than discard, countering their exploration is very crucial, also they can be a fast combo deck.

I am not sure if Lilly should go in, I don't see it is efficient maybe I am wrong.

[GoblinZ]

A question for Stifle pilots: Is Divert good enough to side in purely as a defensive counterspell versus decks that don't run "obvious" Divert targets (e.g. Abrupt Decay, StP, burn spells)? I'm never sure if I'm supposed to bring them in versus, say, combo decks.

Divert is not an exclusively specific sb card for stifle version in the first place, you can play divert in any blue based deck in a meta flooded with bgx decks. It is a dead card against combo in most cases.

[btm10]

A question for Stifle pilots: Is Divert good enough to side in purely as a defensive counterspell versus decks that don't run "obvious" Divert targets (e.g. Abrupt Decay, StP, burn spells)? I'm never sure if I'm supposed to bring them in versus, say, combo decks.

I've brought it in against lots of decks - it's strictly better than Pierce against Burn, it's an extra counter against Miracles and Show and Tell decks; it's even got fringe applications against Reanimator.


Counter is better than discard, countering their exploration is very crucial, also they can be a fast combo deck.

I am not sure if Lilly should go in, I don't see it is efficient maybe I am wrong.

I think the discard version of this deck is more powerful overall. It's not like it doesn't run counters or its own Bobs (run 4 Force, 4 Daze and a Pierce main with some combination of 2-3 Pierce, Divert, and Flusterstorm in the board), and being able to use your mana every turn is great. Liliana is huge in the long game, especially postboard when you not only have Bob, but have Sylvan Library as well. This might not hold for the Stifle version, but I usually board into a BGx midrage deck with some number of Forces in the mirror or against anything slower than us except Shardless.

[GoblinZ]

I think the discard version of this deck is more powerful overall. It's not like it doesn't run counters or its own Bobs (run 4 Force, 4 Daze and a Pierce main with some combination of 2-3 Pierce, Divert, and Flusterstorm in the board), and being able to use your mana every turn is great. Liliana is huge in the long game, especially postboard when you not only have Bob, but have Sylvan Library as well. This might not hold for the Stifle version, but I usually board into a BGx midrage deck with some number of Forces in the mirror or against anything slower than us except Shardless.

I was refering to the sideboard strategy some mentioned above against lands, I doubt he wants more lilly in lands mu postboard...

I never played stifle version of team america and feel a little confused why u explained this to me?:confused:

[btm10]

I was refering to the sideboard strategy some mentioned above against lands, I doubt he wants more lilly in lands mu postboard...

I never played stifle version of team america and feel a little confused why u explained this to me?:confused:

I misread your post, sorry. That being said, I actually like Liliana postboard against Lands because there are situations where they're forced to make Marit Lage on their turn. She's 1BB for an Edict, yes, but she's also your only out to the token. Liliana isn't an all-star against Lands, but you don't have a ton of tools outside of Surgical Extraction and Wasteland.

[FoolofaTook]

Divert is not an exclusively specific sb card for stifle version in the first place, you can play divert in any blue based deck in a meta flooded with bgx decks. It is a dead card against combo in most cases.

Divert works against Gitaxian Probe and Abrupt Decay, Void Snare and Chain of Vapor if you have alternate targets available.. I could see tuning it in to have additional blue count for Force of Will and to try to deflect the probes if you get the chance. This assuming you have dead cards in the list that want to come out.

If you have it in the SB for other reasons you might tune it in against ANT or TES. In RUG you wouldn't because REB's will come in but in BUG it might be the best of a bad set of options.

[GoblinZ]

Divert works against Gitaxian Probe and Abrupt Decay, Void Snare and Chain of Vapor if you have alternate targets available.. I could see tuning it in to have additional blue count for Force of Will and to try to deflect the probes if you get the chance. This assuming you have dead cards in the list that want to come out.

If you have it in the SB for other reasons you might tune it in against ANT or TES. In RUG you wouldn't because REB's will come in but in BUG it might be the best of a bad set of options.

Diverting gitaxian probe is not what we want, keeping information at the cost of card disadvantage?

Very rarely u have alternate target in terms of decay or bounce spell in combo match-up except your own. If they bounce your cage, more often u can only bounce your own creature with divert...

I cannot understand what his or her sb would be like if someone told me he or she has to sideboard divert in against storm...

[FoolofaTook]

Diverting gitaxian probe is not what we want, keeping information at the cost of card disadvantage?

Very rarely u have alternate target in terms of decay or bounce spell in combo match-up except your own. If they bounce your cage, more often u can only bounce your own creature with divert...

I cannot understand what his or her sb would be like if someone told me he or she has to sideboard divert in against storm...

Ok, so as an example. A Storm player frequently holds a Gitaxian Probe and a Duress for the turn they will go off on. They probe you to see what the situation is and then they Duress you to remove your counter/Brainstorm and then they go off.

So you boarded in Flusterstorm, because that's what it's there for. You boarded in maybe a Hydroblast or BEB if you had it in your sideboard to use against Past in Flames if they were trying to flash it back. There isn't a lot else in a BUG sideboard that is going to be much use against ANT or TES. Many BUG sideboards don't bother with the Hydroblast or BEB either. So realistically you had 1 instant speed spell to board in against your opponent alongside maybe a Pithing Needle or two for LED.

Now on the turn the opponent is going off Flusterstorm is going to be useless if they approach it from the probe ya, duress ya angle of attack. You're going to need 2 blue counters on that turn to have a chance to survive. Adding Divert, which is not in your SB for Storm but gives you another option may be a good option. Particularly if you're boarding out an extra Disfigure or Abrupt Decay to get there. Xantid Swarm is a thing and you have to watch out for it but having more than 5 ways to interact with it after it hits the board is probably a net negative, since swarm is all those things reliably interact with.

If I had a Divert in my SB for use against Jund and the mirror and maybe anything I think will try to Thoughtseize or Hymn or kill me really quickly with burn I might well side it in against Storm even though it only interacts with probe and things likely to kill my early clock or needles.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

So realistically you had 1 instant speed spell to board in against your opponent alongside maybe a Pithing Needle or two for LED.

Have the rules changed? How does Pithing Needle stop LED?

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/01/all-about-lions-eye-diamond-yes-its-a-mana-ability-but-it-has-a-timing-restriction/

[KobeBryan]

Have the rules changed? How does Pithing Needle stop LED?

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2013/01/all-about-lions-eye-diamond-yes-its-a-mana-ability-but-it-has-a-timing-restriction/
it doesnt.

[Star|Scream]

Since we're discussing crappy things divert can do against storm, you could always divert one copy of their tendrils, amirite?

[Sturtzilla]

Since we're discussing crappy things divert can do against storm, you could always divert one copy of their tendrils, amirite?

You are correct. However this line requires your opponent to Tendrils you for exact damage/life loss or within two copies of your life total. Which typically they can get well beyond this number. Example: you are at 20 life and your opponent has Storm 9 and casts Tendrils. They get the Tendrils and 9 copies. You could potentially Divert the copy highest on the stack and choose them as the target. This would save you 2 life. Since your opponent still controls the Tendrils and the copies, they would lose 2 life and gain 2 life back. This would effectively keep you alive assuming your opponent Storms for exact life loss (no overkill) and doesn't have :2: mana floating. I think that this is a poor plan. Divert here seems better to send discard spells back their way in early turns. We can't send Duress back, but all of the other common spells can be sent back their way.

[KobeBryan]

You are correct. However this line requires your opponent to Tendrils you for exact damage/life loss or within two copies of your life total. Which typically they can get well beyond this number. Example: you are at 20 life and your opponent has Storm 9 and casts Tendrils. They get the Tendrils and 9 copies. You could potentially Divert the copy highest on the stack and choose them as the target. This would save you 2 life. Since your opponent still controls the Tendrils and the copies, they would lose 2 life and gain 2 life back. This would effectively keep you alive assuming your opponent Storms for exact life loss (no overkill) and doesn't have :2: mana floating. I think that this is a poor plan. Divert here seems better to send discard spells back their way in early turns. We can't send Duress back, but all of the other common spells can be sent back their way.

Divert really isn't for this matchup.

its for the mirror and RUG

[Star|Scream]

You are correct. I think that this is a poor plan. .

That's why I said it was a crappy idea. So is diverting a discard spell or a probe.

[Sturtzilla]

That's why I said it was a crappy idea. So is diverting a discard spell or a probe.

I would much rather Divert a discard spell. It is a two for one, although a poor one. Against Storm deck every card counts.

[KobeBryan]

I would much rather Divert a discard spell. It is a two for one, although a poor one. Against Storm deck every card counts.

Problem is you cannot divert duress, which is the primary discard spell after the 3 therapies

[Star|Scream]

Problem is you cannot divert duress, which is the primary discard spell after the 3 therapies

Right, and even though you can divert a therapy, the owner of the spell still gets to name the card. So they can name whatever they'd like.

[btm10]

Divert really isn't for this matchup.

its for the mirror and RUG

And Shardless, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Miracles, and Painter.

[Sturtzilla]

Alright guys... I wasn't the one proposing that we board it or even bring it in. I was just saying that if it was in my deck post board in this match up, I would prefer to use it in a different manner.

[defector]

Hey Guys, this is Tom Nelson and I thought I'd report on my Top 8 at SCG Dallas on 3/14. I ended up 7-1 on the day and went in at the number two overall, sadly falling in my first Top 8 match. The short version is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=03/15/2015&end_date=03/15/2015&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=45&city=Dallas&state=TX&country=US.

My List:

Mana:20
Polluted X4
Verdant X4
Wasteland X4
U/G Sea X4
Trop X2
Bayou X2

Black:
Hymn X4
Lilli X2

Green:
Tarmo X4

Blue:
Delver X4
Ponder X4
Brainstorm X4
Force of Will X4
Daze X4
Vendillion Clique X2

Gold:
DRS X4
AD X4

Sideboard:
Spell Pierce X2
Disfigure X2
Golgari Charm X2
Grafdigger's X3
Eng Plagued X2
Null Rod X1
Life from the Loam X1
Krosan Grip X1
Toxic Deluge X1

Round 1: Punishing Jund. My first round opponent just had terrible luck in a favorable match up. I was able to get early delver flips and play aggressive hands and he never saw an AD or Bolt or Punishing Fire in both games, which was just a shame. I sided out the dazes for g2 on the draw and put in 2 disfigure, 1 llftl, and 1 Toxic Deluge. All in all I had fast draws and just matrix dodged some bullets.
1-0 2-0

Round 2: Miracles: Karma comes back around. I flounder game 1 and can't disrupt my opponent at all, and then game 2 I see 15 out of my 20 lands. I lose to back to back Jace ultimate's in maybe 20 minutes. I felt like my karma from my Jund opponent was now even. I board out daze and bring in pierces, null rod, and Grip. This is the only match all day where I miss TNN.

1-1 2-2

Round 3: Reanimator: I keep a control heavy hand game one and am able to win enough counter wars over reanimate spells before I can stabilize with DRS. Game 2 sees a T2 Grave Titan and its good enough, game three on the play my opponent mulls to 4(?) and I am able to resolve a cage and get enough pressure on to get the win. I cut the AD's and bring in the Pierces and cages. I think I cut one Lilli as well as she is a little slow for the match up.
2-1 4-3

Round 4: Infect: I played a really nice guy who few in from LA to play. He had just played the mirror vs Tom Ross which is both awesome and intimidating, he hadn't won that round. He gets me to 12 poison pretty quick game 1. Game 2 and 3 I am able to take on the control role and I see my life from the loam to keep the Inkmoth in check and use all my removal before resolving Tarmos for the win. I remember siding out both cliques and both lillis as they just seemed too slow, I kept daze in I think both games just because that deck is so mana light that daze can be live from either side of the die roll.
3-1 6-4

Round 5: Elves: I force 2 Glimpses and Daze a Natural Order with an early delver flip that gets joined by a clique that pulls the Craterhoof out of his hand off and I'm able to get over for lethal. I definitely stole one there, as the game 1 is typically pretty strong for elves, but his hand didnt really develop and I have exactly the permission I needed. Game 2 was very close and grindy, but I was able to ponder into a brainstorm into one of my E. Plagues which gave me the time to get there. He wasn't expecting the E. Plague and I think he only brought in one AD as a miser, and Plague held.
4-1 8-4

Round 6: Robots: I draw one of my friends that I regularly play against at my local. I was hoping we'd find each other later. We'd played the Robots vs BUG Delver mu about 50 times over the last year, and we were both pretty comfortable with the mu. BUG is def ahead there and both games played out that way.
5-1 10-4

Round 7 Merfolk: I played a really nice guy that had destroyed me on a feature match at the last Dallas SCG when I was on Shardless. This time the winds blew my way and Liliana was a house. I was able to resolve Lilli onto emptied boards and that was enough to get there. I boarded out every counterspell I had and brought in all the removal and plagues.
6-1 12-4

Round 8: 12 Post: I draw another friend of mine from my local and we check standings and discover that we have to play. We need to do better next time so we can ID in. He gets me game 1 and I get 2 very close wins to close out the match. The last meaningful play being a hymn that hits the 2 cards he needs to kill me, titan and top, and missing the two lands in his hand. God I love Hymn to Tourach. It was a very intense match against a great player, and like my earlier round I wish we'd met later. I now I brought in Loam, Spell Pierce, Null Rod, Grip and cut the dazes. Playing from Tempo to Control is like riding a fucking donkey with this deck, but it can be done.
7-1 14-5

I enter overall at number 2 and fail to capitilize on it getting blown out pretty quickly by Grixis Delver. I kind of stabilized game two and needed pressure, but found lands. Ces la Vie. Still, my first top 8 EVAR and that feels amazing. I've ground SCG for about five years playing multiple events a year and its really a nice vindicating feeling.

Props: Starcity runs events so well, and they did here as well. Props to all the judges for a great job. Props to all my opponents, everyone I played was a class act which was nice, you rarely get such a nice draw.

Slops: I was sick as fuck the whole day coughing and feverish which was annoying as hell. I didn't take good notes in part because of that and because of that this report is a bit weak. If anyone has any questions or anything to add or anything I got completely wrong, please let me know.

cheers
defector

[Star|Scream]

Great job on the finish!

How did you board against infect?

I played this match last night online and one game I had 5 removal spells (2 AD, 2 charm, 1 disfigure) in my hand plus a wasteland and I still couldn't sequence properly. That deck is tough. Plus pendelhaven + crop rotation make it even tougher.

[ANRoebuck]

maybe a Pithing Needle or two for LED.

Seriously? Seriously?

[defector]

@StarScream.

Thanks:)
I was beaten by Infect twice at SCG Houston last month, both times going to a game 3 and both times taking it on the chin from that stupid Inkmoth Nexus. Coming inot Dallas I knew that the mu needed some commitment. Losing to Infect is very frustrating as it felt like I was about to win each game and then I was dead. I cut -2 Clique -2 Lilli -1 Ponder -1 Daze. +2 Disfigure, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Grip +2 Plague. My reasoning was that Infect puts you solidly in the control role while simultaneously making Lilli a little slow and clunky, which is bad for the way we'd like to transition. Cut the Lillis, loaded up on removal and try for a loam lock. I never got a plague down and those could just as easily be Golgari Charms if you don't want to run plagues. Any broad sweeper that can hit that stupid land is what you want. After making those changes I still had one close game where he got a clear attack on me after nickle and diming me a bit and got me to 7 or so. The other game I never felt too threatened. The winning is just getting a single goyf into play, so don't worry about winning just worry about controlling them and keeping them from winning.

cheers
defector

[Star|Scream]

@StarScream.

Thanks:)
I was beaten by Infect twice at SCG Houston last month, both times going to a game 3 and both times taking it on the chin from that stupid Inkmoth Nexus. Coming inot Dallas I knew that the mu needed some commitment. Losing to Infect is very frustrating as it felt like I was about to win each game and then I was dead. I cut -2 Clique -2 Lilli -1 Ponder -1 Daze. +2 Disfigure, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Grip +2 Plague. My reasoning was that Infect puts you solidly in the control role while simultaneously making Lilli a little slow and clunky, which is bad for the way we'd like to transition. Cut the Lillis, loaded up on removal and try for a loam lock. I never got a plague down and those could just as easily be Golgari Charms if you don't want to run plagues. Any broad sweeper that can hit that stupid land is what you want. After making those changes I still had one close game where he got a clear attack on me after nickle and diming me a bit and got me to 7 or so. The other game I never felt too threatened. The winning is just getting a single goyf into play, so don't worry about winning just worry about controlling them and keeping them from winning.

cheers
defector

I see what you're saying, but it seems like they can beat any removal I throw at them. Decay? Vines. Golgari charm when they're tapped out? mutagenic growth.

[iamajellydonut]

Golgari charm when they're tapped out? mutagenic growth.

This isn't something that they run.

[Star|Scream]

This isn't something that they run.

Sorry, I was confusing it with the Modern version (which also gives me headaches). I meant invigorate

[H]

I see what you're saying, but it seems like they can beat any removal I throw at them. Decay? Vines. Golgari charm when they're tapped out? mutagenic growth.

If they have every answer every time, they'll just win. Same goes for every other deck though.

You have counter-magic, discard and removal. There really isn't much more you can do to them. Hit them with discard, always try to kill things on your own turn (so pumps are either protection or Infect, not both) and don't try to "get them." While you might think you can two-for-one them, the chances are good that it will backfire. Oh and of course, save you Wastelands for the Inkmoths.

[defector]

They can't respond to Krosan Grip on that stupid land, but if they have everything you lose, if they have one less than what you have then you win. Block aggressively. You really just want to deplete them to the max.
cheers
defector

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

If your having trouble with infect, try using Melira, basically an auto win if she resolves. Or, a singlton Life From the Loam extends our Wastelands and helps with Delver.

[wcm8]

If your having trouble with infect, try using Melira, basically an auto win if she resolves. Or, a singlton Life From the Loam extends our Wastelands and helps with Delver.

Melira is just a bit *too* narrow, and unless a deck was running Green Sun's Zenith and/or Infect made up a significant portion of the metagame, I'd feel bad running it. Plus, Infect often runs some number of Submerge or other removal/counter spells, so she's not even guaranteed to win you the game.

Loam though is a good option. It fell out of popularity around the time DRS and Rest in Peace were overplayed, but now with a mixed-meta it's a very powerful option to gain pseudo-card advantage (and sometimes steal games via Wasteland recursion).

Some might say Dread of Night is *too* narrow, but given how prevalent X/1 white creatures are and also how incredibly bad BUG tends to do against those sort of decks, I see the value in spending a slot for it. I see DnT doing really well tournament after tournament, and yet people don't want to spend a slot on a 1-mana 'I win' card. We do it for Graveyard strategies with Cage, why not White creatures?

[iamajellydonut]

We do it for Graveyard strategies with Cage, why not White creatures?

Because "graveyard strategies" is a very universal term. Cage is useful against Reanimator and Elves and Dredge and sometimes ANT. Surgical Extraction is useful against Reanimator and Dredge and Loam and Lands and Punishing Fire and various combos and whatever else you feel like squeezing it in against. Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus are useful against Reanimator and Dredge and Loam and Lands and Maverick and RUG and Punishing Fire and whatever else you feel like squeezing it in against.

Dread of Night is useful against Death and Taxes. Which is a fine choice, I guess. Kind of. Not really. But regardless, you shouldn't justify Dread of Night by saying that the graveyard hate we choose to run has as narrow of an application.


Edit: Also, if you were trying to make a point rather than a suggestion by bringing up Dread of Night, it was lost on me.

[wcm8]

Dread of Night is a haymaker against decks that are typically one of the hardest matchups for BUG.

'White Creatures' are actually fairly numerous: Thalia, Mother of Runes, Lingering Souls, Monastery Mentor, Flicker wisp, Mangara, etc... Of course you should be running 2-3 copies of Golgari Charm and/or Marsh Casualities in your SB, but DoN is better because it handles these problems proactively, reactively, and definitively. White creature decks attack BUG's strategy by ignoring counterspells (Cavern of Souls, Aether Vial), overloading on creatures so our point removal is weak, taxing our mana base, clearing our graveyard, and even Hymn to Tourach is a liability due to their strategic redundancy and cards like Wilt Leaf Liege.

And if they *really* want to stomp on BUG, they run Mirran Crusader.

It seems to be to be a horrible decision to ignore a popular Tier 1 strategy if you actually want to win a tournament. You can hope to dodge this matchup in the Swiss rounds, but DnT has consistently been showing up in Top 8s everywhere. It's time BUG starts acknowledging it as a real threat instead of some fringe, cute, 'budget' deck.

All I'm suggesting is that BUG decks start running 1-2 copies of Dread of Night.

[iamajellydonut]

All I'm suggesting is that BUG decks start running 1-2 copies of Dread of Night.

In place of what? If I could, I would probably be packing something close to a twenty-six card sideboard. But the truth is that you have to pick your battles. You would sacrifice universally applicable sideboard cards in order to dedicate cards towards marginally improving an only uncomfortable match-up?

[wcm8]

In place of what? If I could, I would probably be packing something close to a twenty-six card sideboard. But the truth is that you have to pick your battles. You would sacrifice universally applicable sideboard cards in order to dedicate cards towards marginally improving an only uncomfortable match-up?

Picking your battles is indeed the conundrum. You only have 15 slots to work with, and those will also be based largely on what your main 60 looks like.

Lately I've dropped Hymn and am playing a 3/3 split of Spell Pierce and Stifle + 3 Dark Confidant + 1 TNN due to changes in my local metagame (plenty of Control and Combo decks, but also a fair amount of opposing tempo decks). I also dropped Liliana entirely (since she's too slow right now) and am running 3/2 Decay/Disfigure for my removal right now. My current sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (only 3 in MD)
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Marsh Casualties (over Golgari Charm since I'm running Bob + TNN)
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

DoN is arguably the most narrow card there, but it's what I consider to be a necessary evil due to the prevalence of White creature decks in my metagame and also at large. It's really up to people to decide if DnT is prevalent enough to justify running it, but DoN is just *soooo* good at beating those strategies. It's the perfect sideboard card because it's relevant no matter when you get to cast it, and can really help out against a bad board state. (Some SB cards need to be proactively deployed or only serve as temporary measures).

[Fallacy]

Picking your battles is indeed the conundrum. You only have 15 slots to work with, and those will also be based largely on what your main 60 looks like.

Lately I've dropped Hymn and am playing a 3/3 split of Spell Pierce and Stifle + 3 Dark Confidant + 1 TNN due to changes in my local metagame (plenty of Control and Combo decks, but also a fair amount of opposing tempo decks). I also dropped Liliana entirely (since she's too slow right now) and am running 3/2 Decay/Disfigure for my removal right now. My current sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (only 3 in MD)
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Marsh Casualties (over Golgari Charm since I'm running Bob + TNN)
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

DoN is arguably the most narrow card there, but it's what I consider to be a necessary evil due to the prevalence of White creature decks in my metagame and also at large. It's really up to people to decide if DnT is prevalent enough to justify running it, but DoN is just *soooo* good at beating those strategies. It's the perfect sideboard card because it's relevant no matter when you get to cast it, and can really help out against a bad board state. (Some SB cards need to be proactively deployed or only serve as temporary measures).

I've been seeing a lot of top finishes with your type of list, essentially, what Jim Davis' list was. Are you liking that list over the classic 2-Lily 14-creature Hymn build? If so, why?

Have you played your list against a Hymn build? Curious what tends to be favored.

[wcm8]

I've been seeing a lot of top finishes with your type of list, essentially, what Jim Davis' list was. Are you liking that list over the classic 2-Lily 14-creature Hymn build? If so, why?

Have you played your list against a Hymn build? Curious what tends to be favored.

Yes, essentially it's a list that more closely resembles RUG, except with the power and flexibility of DRS + Decay.

18 lands
4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 TNN
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
3 FoW
3 S. Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Decay
2 Disfigure

The 'classic' build with Hymn is good too. Either approach can win both and play very similarly. It's just a matter of degrees in certain matchups. I have found Liliana to be kinda bad lately, and I really like how Dark Confidant has been performing lately. Both Hymn and Stifle can get you 'free' wins, and it's pretty much a toss up as to which card is better -- it's all so situational.

As for the 'mirror' -- completely draw dependent. No real way to say that one is significantly favored over the other, though arguably Dark Confidant is a beast especially since BUG lacks Burn.

[btm10]

This where I'm at. It's been treating me well on paper and online recently. It might be too aggressive, but it might be just right as well


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Reanimate

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

Sideboard
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Krosan Grip
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library

[Unassigned]

This where I'm at. It's been treating me well on paper and online recently. It might be too aggressive, but it might be just right as well

1 Reanimate


Is that you, John Wiley? :wink:

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Decks to Beat - playing in the Big Boy's league!

[KobeBryan]

Decks to Beat - playing in the Big Boy's league!

I rather flow under the radar.

We know this deck can pretty much beat any deck out there except autolosses to maybe like elves or DNT,

It beats having a meta full of bloodmoons, magus of the moon, wastelands.

[btm10]

Is that you, John Wiley? :wink:

Brendan McGrail, cribbing John Wiley. I've only lived the dream of stealing a Griselbrand once though.

[H]

Brendan McGrail, cribbing John Wiley. I've only lived the dream of stealing a Griselbrand once though.

List looks good to me, but why the second Trop over the fourth Sea? Black seems critical in this list, considering Hymn, Lili, even the Confidants too.

[ThE_jOkEr]

Dear BUG Delver veterans!

I have recently purchased the needed staples to actively play paper legacy (coming from modern I had all the BG Stuff and mainly needed the lands + FoW) and am now wondering how I should approach the deck-building process. Not having any experience besides watching SCG coverage regularly I do not know the reasoning why some cards should / shouldn't be included in this deck. I have played a ton of modern delver therefore the archetype is not completely foreign territory.

I would really appreciate it if you could take some time to answer me a couple of questions:

a.) Why isn't nimble mongoose part of this strategy? The deck is playing wastelands and sometimes even stifle therefore it has the same tools as RUG to play a "land destruction" game. In addition I read that older lists even played sinkhole in favour of hymn. In this kind of environment mongoose seems to be a solid choice.

b.) What is your reasoning behind the split between counterspells and discard? What quantity of permission should be played overall in an open field?

c.) I read that some lists played tomb stalker as goyf 5-6, do you think that tasigur (only costing B + card drawing) is a valid choice for this deck?


Thank you in advance,
Philip

[iamajellydonut]

a.) Why isn't nimble mongoose part of this strategy? The deck is playing wastelands and sometimes even stifle therefore it has the same tools as RUG to play a "land destruction" game. In addition I read that older lists even played sinkhole in favour of hymn. In this kind of environment mongoose seems to be a solid choice.

b.) What is your reasoning behind the split between counterspells and discard? What quantity of permission should be played overall in an open field?

c.) I read that some lists played tomb stalker as goyf 5-6, do you think that tasigur (only costing B + card drawing) is a valid choice for this deck?

1) Nimble Mongoose is in no way connected to land destruction. Nimble Mongoose simply happens to be the best beater that RUG has available.

2) "Eh". Usually it all just kind of fits together naturally. You got your Deathrites, Delvers, Goyfs, Brainstorms, Ponders, Dazes, Abrupt Decays, 3-4 Force of Wills, and 1-2 Lilianas. After that you kinda just dick around until you find a configuration that's satisfying.

3) Sure, he's ok.

[ThE_jOkEr]

1) Nimble Mongoose is in no way connected to land destruction. Nimble Mongoose simply happens to be the best beater that RUG has available.

It is true that mongoose isn't tied to land destruction but my main point is that mongoose is a solid creature and seems to be good against miracles for instance. But that is besides the point I am raising - I just wanted to know why it doesn't see any play in this shell.



2) "Eh". Usually it all just kind of fits together naturally. You got your Deathrites, Delvers, Goyfs, Brainstorms, Ponders, Dazes, Abrupt Decays, 3-4 Force of Wills, and 1-2 Lilianas. After that you kinda just dick around until you find a configuration that's satisfying.

I do like the thoughtseizes and hymns in addition to the "free" counterspells but that could be just my personal preference.

Not knowing the full developing history of this deck I was wondering if anyone has tried shardless agent (leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle) in this shell? I know there is shardless BUG but I do like the more proactive approach with delver of secrets of Team America.

Philip

[H]

It is true that mongoose isn't tied to land destruction but my main point is that mongoose is a solid creature and seems to be good against miracles for instance. But that is besides the point I am raising - I just wanted to know why it doesn't see any play in this shell

IIRC, it was tried years ago, to varying degrees of success. Frankly though, the printing of Deathrite ended that though. Consider that both decks run ~12 creatures. Eight of those will be Delvers and Goyfs, so you are left to pick you last four. Is Mongoose better than Deathrite? I think the quick answer is "often no." Of course there are exceptions, but in general Deathrite just does more, even if he is more vulnerable.

So, can you run Mongoose? Of course, but I just doesn't seem all that great in light of the other options you have.


I do like the thoughtseizes and hymns in addition to the "free" counterspells but that could be just my personal preference.

Not knowing the full developing history of this deck I was wondering if anyone has tried shardless agent (leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle) in this shell? I know there is shardless BUG but I do like the more proactive approach with delver of secrets of Team America.

Philip

If you run Shardless Agent, Daze is really bad and Spell Pierce isn't great either. At the point at which you make room for the Shardless Agents, reduce your Daze count, you honestly end up with something of a sub-optimal Shardless BUG deck mashed up with a sub-optimal Delver deck. You could try it, but I really think you are better served going all one way, or the other.

[iamajellydonut]

If you run Shardless Agent, Daze is really bad and Spell Pierce isn't great either.

In fairness, he did say "leaving out dazes and more conditional blue cards like stifle".

[ThE_jOkEr]

First of all I want to thank you for your feedback - getting into a (at least for me :smile: ) new format is always an interesting challenge because you don't know how MUs are supposed to play out and which cards are key, therefore your replies are much appreciated. I do like how shardless interacts with hymn and due to that wanted to know if it ever was "a thing" in this deck (playing BUG colours as well and all).

For the time being I want to raise another question: I don't have a firm grasp of the value of counterspells in contrast to discard spells in legacy to be honest - could you give me some insight on the pros/cons?

Personally I do like discard more because besides disruption it offers you information which is a factor for me being new to the format. It is easier to take out the essential tutor with discard against storm than knowing which spell to counter with spell pierce if it wouldn't stop the first ritual. I trust myself to evaluate complex board states correctly most of the time if I don't have an information problem but I don't have the extensive knowledge (at least for now) to make ideal plays "in the dark". Even with reading primers/articles, playing the deck and watching coverage it will take me some time to acquire the knowledge I deem necessary to truly play competitively with this deck.

Moreover do you have any suggestions how a mainly black based disruption package could look like (3-4 FoW obv. still included)?

Thank you in advance,
Philip

[iamajellydonut]

It helps if you don't try to gauge the usage/usefulness of counterspells as a lump. Instead of "counterspells", try considering them as Force of Will and Daze and Spell Pierce. And the same goes for your discard options.

[defector]

I think that if you looks at the disruption suite you need synergy and redundancy. I like 4/4/4 Daze/FoW/Hymn. That's a pretty solid 12. If you go under 12 you start to soften up to combo decks like storm or snt, and it's also challenging to really lean on Lilli as disruption as she is a little slow for the tier one combo decks in Legacy. You can also mix in Stifle which is both more conditional and at times more back breaking. I'd say pick a 12 and get some rounds in and see what you like. I love Hymn for example and just want to cast it. You can also look at cards like Clique as kind of a soft increase to both the disruption and threat density in the deck. You have lots of tools to choose from, play around with them.
cheers
defector

[Lans89]

I play 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn, 2 Liliana in a list with 2 Confidants. Maybe I want to swap 1 seize for a 3th Hymn or a piece of removal. I don't like the lifeloss from thoughtseize because of Confidant right now, but still prefer trageted discard over Hymn =(.. In a lot of matchups it doesn't matter much, but still..

[btm10]

List looks good to me, but why the second Trop over the fourth Sea? Black seems critical in this list, considering Hymn, Lili, even the Confidants too.

I want four green and five blue sources, especially postboard where I'm bringing in several additional green cards. I'm actually considering cutting a Bayou for the fourth sea if I go down a green source because I hate mulliganing otherwise solid 1-landers because Bayou is the one land.


I play 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn, 2 Liliana in a list with 2 Confidants. Maybe I want to swap 1 seize for a 3th Hymn or a piece of removal. I don't like the lifeloss from thoughtseize because of Confidant right now, but still prefer trageted discard over Hymn =(.. In a lot of matchups it doesn't matter much, but still..

I think it's a matter of prederence. My oddball disruption suite works for me. If anything I'd go to just four pieces of discard on top of your Lilianas, but that's just me.

[TLK]

Picking your battles is indeed the conundrum. You only have 15 slots to work with, and those will also be based largely on what your main 60 looks like.

Lately I've dropped Hymn and am playing a 3/3 split of Spell Pierce and Stifle + 3 Dark Confidant + 1 TNN due to changes in my local metagame (plenty of Control and Combo decks, but also a fair amount of opposing tempo decks). I also dropped Liliana entirely (since she's too slow right now) and am running 3/2 Decay/Disfigure for my removal right now. My current sideboard:

1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will (only 3 in MD)
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Marsh Casualties (over Golgari Charm since I'm running Bob + TNN)
1 Dread of Night
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

DoN is arguably the most narrow card there, but it's what I consider to be a necessary evil due to the prevalence of White creature decks in my metagame and also at large. It's really up to people to decide if DnT is prevalent enough to justify running it, but DoN is just *soooo* good at beating those strategies. It's the perfect sideboard card because it's relevant no matter when you get to cast it, and can really help out against a bad board state. (Some SB cards need to be proactively deployed or only serve as temporary measures).

You have Loam listed twice in your board. Are you running 2 Loam or is there another card you left out?

[wcm8]

You have Loam listed twice in your board. Are you running 2 Loam or is there another card you left out?

typo, the missing card was probably another removal spell like Diabolic edict or similar.

My list was just put together for that weekend. Build your own SB based on your main deck and local expectations. I'm not even so sure if I'm entirely sold on running Stifle, and will likely go back to Hymn if I'm playing TA. Also I think it's a toss-up between Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library; they both shine in different scenarios.

[KobeBryan]

typo, the missing card was probably another removal spell like Diabolic edict or similar.

My list was just put together for that weekend. Build your own SB based on your main deck and local expectations. I'm not even so sure if I'm entirely sold on running Stifle, and will likely go back to Hymn if I'm playing TA. Also I think it's a toss-up between Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library; they both shine in different scenarios.

Yea i don't like the stifle build. I rather just jam and jam and jam.

Waiting isn't my game.

[ANRoebuck]

Took first place at a local event ("Win a playset of Noble Hierarch") with a slightly experimental list. Tournament report here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29332-First-with-BUG-Delver&p=874626#post874626


Highlights - Tasigur beating up Tarmogoyfs; Tasigur beating up Tombstalkers; topping the swiss; not dropping a game in the top8; Surgical-ing all my opponent's lands away; building a really wonky sideboard and not getting punished for it

[TLK]

Got 3rd in a small 10-man Legacy tournament last night.

Round 1 vs. Imperial Painter:

He wins game 1 on the back of a timely Blood Moon. I had the mana to float for an Abrupt Decay, but unfortunately he had a Spellskite on board. Close, but he took it. Game 2 I was able to counter/disrupt him enough for a large Goyf to take care of business. Game 3 he has a turn 1 Magus of the Moon on the play. GG. :/

0-1, 1-2

Round 2 vs. Mono Black Control:

It's a weird build with Waste Not, tons of discard, Smallpox, etc. His finishers are Abyssal Persecutor and Desecration Demon. The large fliers were hard to deal with once in play, and I succumb to 6/6 monsters game 1. Game 2, my timely Thoughtseize took a Demon and I was able to ride double Goyf to victory. Game 3 is similar to game 2.

1-1, 2-1

Round 3 vs. Burn:

Game 1 he gets a close game with a Price of Progress. Games 2 and 3 I'm able to counter most of his big spells as well as gain tons of life/deal tons of damage with Deathrite Shaman. He was the all star in this matchup. Large Goyfs acted as roadblocks for opposing Guides and Swiftspears. Disfigures and Decays helped with Lavamancer and Eidolon.

2-1, 2-1

Deck felt pretty good overall. The T1 Magus was just unfortunate luck. I think I need to revise my sideboard a bit.

[Lans89]

Pff the 3 Confi, 3 Pierce, 3 stifle builds are doing very well... I can't rly decide on which one is better. Discard gives so much information, something I miss when trying out that 'new' list. I keep switching between the

I also love to play with 2 Confi in a discard build, but the Thoughtseize lifeloss is still an issue. 2 confi, 2 hymn, 2 Seize, 2 liliana, 2 disfigure, 3 decay, 19 lands + the usual is what I'm thinking off now.

[o_boogie]

I think both the Hymn and Stifle builds are perfectly fine in the current meta. If you are having trouble deciding which to choose, I would just ask which of those two cards you would prefer to cast. I prefer Hymn cause of the sad faces I see from my opponents when it resolves.

[Lans89]

I think both the Hymn and Stifle builds are perfectly fine in the current meta. If you are having trouble deciding which to choose, I would just ask which of those two cards you would prefer to cast. I prefer Hymn cause of the sad faces I see from my opponents when it resolves.

Haha yeah, Hymn is fun to play! But I would most likely only play 2 copies =). And as others stated, jamming is more fun than waiting! I guess I know what I want to play hmm, but the stifle results are still tunning!

[wcm8]

In general, being aggressive is *always* better than being reactive. Threats are always potential game-winners, whereas reactive cards need to be both A) timely and B) appropriate for the given scenario. Neither of those is always guaranteed; conversely, a flipped Delver *demands* an answer. The thing about RUG is that is can use its reactive portion to shield its threats, whereas BUG is more about running the opponent out of answers and then winning via topdeck (speaking in general, obviously this isn't always the case). Either approach can work, asHymn isn't *always* powerful (but then, neither is Spell Pierce or Stifle).

This doesn't apply directly to BUG, but I played a Grixis list this past weekend in a local 24-man tournament, piloting it to top 4. Previously I was testing a version that ran a lot of reactive spells, minimal threats, and no Dazes, but found that this list was too slow and it was difficult to always capitalize on opportunities due to not having a creature onboard. So I instead ran a version that had more threats, including Delvers and Monastery Swiftspear and 4 Daze. The list ran much, much smoother as I generally always had a threat onboard.

I think that aggro-control is the right approach to the metagame at large, and the sideboard can be built to answer the strategies' weaknesses. It becomes a matter of taste to decide on running BUG, RUG, Grixis, UR, and even UG Infect is essentially a tempo deck that utilizes a similar approach to closing out games. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and unless more broken cards are printed that make one color combination undeniably 'the best', there's no definitive answer. And even then, Legacy has plenty of strong sideboard cards to answer just about anything.

[Deckerator]

When do you play Disfigure (1-2x) in the mainboard?

[KobeBryan]

When do you play Disfigure (1-2x) in the mainboard?

When the meta is full of delver decks, stoneblade decks, or creature decks.

[ANRoebuck]

When do you play Disfigure (1-2x) in the mainboard?

At the moment? Always. The prevalence of x/2s is significant enough that it's useful in more games than it isn't, and it also lets you win in combat in situations like Goyf vs Batterskull. You should probably be looking at either 4/1 or 3/2 for your Abrupt Decay/Disfigure split in the main, with a total of 4/2 or 4/3 in the 75.

It really is x/2s, as well - unfortunately Darkblast really isn't the card it used to be :frown:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah, unless Miracles is big in your area. They are just plain bad against Miracles.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[btm10]

At the moment? Always. The prevalence of x/2s is significant enough that it's useful in more games than it isn't, and it also lets you win in combat in situations like Goyf vs Batterskull. You should probably be looking at either 4/1 or 3/2 for your Abrupt Decay/Disfigure split in the main, with a total of 4/2 or 4/3 in the 75.

It really is x/2s, as well - unfortunately Darkblast really isn't the card it used to be :frown:

To be fair, Goyf vs. Batterskull is usually a win for Goyf anyway.


Yeah, unless Miracles is big in your area. They are just plain bad against Miracles.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

This (and other non-creature matchups) is why I don't like non-Decay, non-Liliana removal maindeck. I was up to 2 MD Dimir Charm when Cruise was legal and that worked very well. I think that some number of MD Disfigures are fine (and even correct) if you have a bunch of creature decks to slog through. In my meta (or in a large unknown meta), I'd rather have the Charm if you were absolutely committed to an additional maindeck removal spell. I know that it doesn't kill flipped Delvers and doesn't break Goyf/Tasigur standoffs, but it does everything else that you want Disfigure for without being dead in a third or more of your matchups. Especially in the case of Miracles, where drawing a hard counter versus drawing a brick is often the difference between winning and losing.

[Deckerator]

Here is my list. Played
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

1 Sylvan library

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

This is the list i play at the moment.
After Disfigure I have got some questions about some other options in the deck.
The ideas are.
--> 2 Tasigur instead of Tombstalker. I have tested Tombstalker and he is a good option because he is 5/5 flying and not legendary. The downside is the double B
--> 4 Hymn and 0 Thoughtseize instead of 2 Hymn and 4 Thoughtseize. Im not really convinced of so many BB spells.
+ 2 Liliana of the Veil.

For me, i really like Liliana but cmc 3 is much in this deck and she is not really a win con.

Any ideas?

[meffeo]

Gurmag Angler is a viable option instead of the 2nd Tasigur. It costs 1 delve more but power is greater and most important thing, it's not legendary (see Karakas); you won't activate most of the time Tasigur's ability.

I either don't like Liliana. It's not a wincon and I'm still searchin' for a decent substitute.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


Edit:

For reference, this is the list I'm approaching to:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Tasigur
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker
2 TNN

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Disfigure
1 Dimir Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach

1 Sylvan Library

4 Waste
3 Usea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
9 Fetches

SB
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Tasigur
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Tombstalker
2 TNN


No Goyf? This must be an April Fool, yes?! ;-)

[meffeo]

No Goyf? This must be an April Fool, yes?! ;-)

Yes, it's a goyfless build. I'd like to play creatures that are undecayables and not *excessively* weak to gy hate.

The Golden Fang could easily enter at turn 3 or 4 and still remains a 4/5 after a RiP et similia (apply the same concept for the Angler). Obviously Tombstalker is a different story.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

[Unassigned]

Recently "joined the dark side" with the recent decision to purchase a set of Goyfs to complete my Legacy collection.

I've ran the following list to cash at both Legacy events at GP Cleveland (Top 4 split Saturday, 8th on Sunday, picked up a free Volcanic Island for my troubles), and also have won the last two weeks at my LGS.

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
2 Disfigure

Sideboard:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Murderous Cut
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
3 Thoughtseize


The only changes have been to the sideboard, where I've cut the Golgari Charm and Umezawa's Jitte for Toxic Deluge and Null Rod (metagame choices).

I've been a huge fan of Tasigur in the deck, despite not being very popular with some players. I feel that this inclusion walks the same line as the Discard vs Stifle debate. It's all about your play style and how you want to attack your individual matches.

Either way, thought I'd share.

[btm10]

Recently "joined the dark side" with the recent decision to purchase a set of Goyfs to complete my Legacy collection.

I've ran the following list to cash at both Legacy events at GP Cleveland (Top 4 split Saturday, 8th on Sunday, picked up a free Volcanic Island for my troubles), and also have won the last two weeks at my LGS.

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
2 Disfigure

Sideboard:

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Murderous Cut
2 Divert
2 Flusterstorm
3 Thoughtseize


The only changes have been to the sideboard, where I've cut the Golgari Charm and Umezawa's Jitte for Toxic Deluge and Null Rod (metagame choices).

I've been a huge fan of Tasigur in the deck, despite not being very popular with some players. I feel that this inclusion walks the same line as the Discard vs Stifle debate. It's all about your play style and how you want to attack your individual matches.

Either way, thought I'd share.

If I were going to play Stifle, this is very close to the list I'd play. Tasigur definitely gives you the lategame that Liliana does in the discard version, and I suspect that you can very easily get rid of all the bad earlygame cards like Daze when he comes down. How has Murderous Cut been at dealing with things outside of Decay range? Is it markedly better than something like Go for the Throat, Victim of Night, or Ultimate Price?

Also, glad the Dark Side is treating you well.

[Unassigned]

If I were going to play Stifle, this is very close to the list I'd play. Tasigur definitely gives you the lategame that Liliana does in the discard version, and I suspect that you can very easily get rid of all the bad earlygame cards like Daze when he comes down. How has Murderous Cut been at dealing with things outside of Decay range? Is it markedly better than something like Go for the Throat, Victim of Night, or Ultimate Price?

Also, glad the Dark Side is treating you well.

Thanks Brendan (This is Adam btw ;) )

Yes, Wiley is pretty dead set against Tasigur, but I've been so in love with the card in Standard/Modern/Legacy that I added him without a second thought and haven't regretted it. There are certainly situations where he's bad, but he's been such a house that I can't justify changing him out aside for a few matches like Death & Taxes.

Murderous Cut has been very beneficial. In addition to controlling my graveyard, hitting opposing Tasigurs and beefier bodies outside of Decay range has been very helpful. I wouldn't change him out for ay of the cards you've mentioned, namely because I'm trying to stay as cheap as possible and it's nice that cut does not have the limitations on targets that others do.

[Brentane]

Alright. After a long and tireless search for the right "blue" deck, I've come to this secluded alley and stumbled upon this community to study under your tutelage of the dark arts.

In all seriousness, I cannot find the right "blue" deck for myself. I currently have D&T, Elves, and plan on building burn (maybe goblins instead) as well as building MUD. My problem with blue is, I want to use as many of the best blue spells in Legacy as I can and not get bored using them (for reference: brainstorm, ponder, force of will, and daze). I have an OmniTell deck with the four show and tell required, but the spells search for combo pieces, not threats so it bores me (I also don't get to play daze). I tried Merfolk but they have no use for brainstorm or ponder which kind of turns me off a little. I also tried Sneak & Show, but they are similar to OmniTell.

So I have come to this community to ask if this deck is more fun then the blue decks that I mentioned? (So is it more fun than an Islandwalking army or dropping Show and Tell?) If it is a fun deck to invest in, I am missing the goyfs and blue duals. Anyway I can build it without sacrificing much of it's power while collecting other pieces?

[Zodiac_Dragon]

Alright. After a long and tireless search for the right "blue" deck, I've come to this secluded alley and stumbled upon this community to study under your tutelage of the dark arts.

In all seriousness, I cannot find the right "blue" deck for myself. I currently have D&T, Elves, and plan on building burn (maybe goblins instead) as well as building MUD. My problem with blue is, I want to use as many of the best blue spells in Legacy as I can and not get bored using them (for reference: brainstorm, ponder, force of will, and daze). I have an OmniTell deck with the four show and tell required, but the spells search for combo pieces, not threats so it bores me (I also don't get to play daze). I tried Merfolk but they have no use for brainstorm or ponder which kind of turns me off a little. I also tried Sneak & Show, but they are similar to OmniTell.

So I have come to this community to ask if this deck is more fun then the blue decks that I mentioned? (So is it more fun than an Islandwalking army or dropping Show and Tell?) If it is a fun deck to invest in, I am missing the goyfs and blue duals. Anyway I can build it without sacrificing much of it's power while collecting other pieces?

I think it is just personal preference, which deck is fun and which is not. With this deck you have many cards to interact with the oppenent.

You NEED definitly 3-4 Gofys and 3 U-Seas (4 are better when you are on the blacker Build with Hmyne / Lily). In genereal: Hymne Build standard Manabase 4 U-Seas, 2 Bayou, 1 Trop, Stifle Build often has 3 U-Seas and 3 Trops.

You don't want to play any Basics in there.

I hope this may help you. :smile:

[Asthereal]

Alright. After a long and tireless search for the right "blue" deck, I've come to this secluded alley and stumbled upon this community to study under your tutelage of the dark arts.

In all seriousness, I cannot find the right "blue" deck for myself. I currently have D&T, Elves, and plan on building burn (maybe goblins instead) as well as building MUD. My problem with blue is, I want to use as many of the best blue spells in Legacy as I can and not get bored using them (for reference: brainstorm, ponder, force of will, and daze). I have an OmniTell deck with the four show and tell required, but the spells search for combo pieces, not threats so it bores me (I also don't get to play daze). I tried Merfolk but they have no use for brainstorm or ponder which kind of turns me off a little. I also tried Sneak & Show, but they are similar to OmniTell.

So I have come to this community to ask if this deck is more fun then the blue decks that I mentioned? (So is it more fun than an Islandwalking army or dropping Show and Tell?) If it is a fun deck to invest in, I am missing the goyfs and blue duals. Anyway I can build it without sacrificing much of it's power while collecting other pieces?
This deck is one of the most interactive blue decks you can play. Yes, it is great fun.
You still get some blow outs with Hymn to Tourach, but almost every game is a battle.
I would definitely recommend this as a blue deck to get into.

[Star|Scream]

I think it is just personal preference, which deck is fun and which is not. With this deck you have many cards to interact with the oppenent.

You NEED definitly 3-4 Gofys and 3 U-Seas (4 are better when you are on the blacker Build with Hmyne / Lily). In genereal: Hymne Build standard Manabase 4 U-Seas, 2 Bayou, 1 Trop, Stifle Build often has 3 U-Seas and 3 Trops.

You don't want to play any Basics in there.

I hope this may help you. :smile:

I had a question about this as well. I'm building TES which requires 2 Underground Seas. If I want to play that AND lend Team America to someone, could it function on just 2 Seas, 3 Trops, and a Bayou? could stifle work with that list?

[FoolofaTook]

BUG Tempo does have the problem that Disfigure and Dismember are the 1cc creature removal available to it and they both have significant drawbacks. Abrupt Decay is a great all purpose removal tool for the meta right now but it often doesn't happen fast enough on the draw. That's the primary thing holding BUG back from being the best blue shell list right now. Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are just objectively better at removing early creatures than anything BUG Tempo has available.

It's a good trade-off though. If BUG had a removal spell with the overall value of bolts nobody would play anything else.

[KobeBryan]

BUG Tempo does have the problem that Disfigure and Dismember are the 1cc creature removal available to it and they both have significant drawbacks. Abrupt Decay is a great all purpose removal tool for the meta right now but it often doesn't happen fast enough on the draw. That's the primary thing holding BUG back from being the best blue shell list right now. Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are just objectively better at removing early creatures than anything BUG Tempo has available.

It's a good trade-off though. If BUG had a removal spell with the overall value of bolts nobody would play anything else.

I think everyone would jump to DNT or elves...having BUG as 50% of the meta will be hell

[FoolofaTook]

I think everyone would jump to DNT or elves...having BUG as 50% of the meta will be hell

BUG can adapt to that kind of meta shift better than most lists. That it doesn't really like the D&T or Elves matchups is primarily because there are so many other things that have to be taken into account. If you can play three Dread of Night in your sideboard D&T becomes almost trivially easy. You can't do that in most metas. You'd also see more mainlist Golgari Charm in that type of meta.

The thing that keeps BUG from dominating at this point is the heavy reliance on two colors that are not blue and the utility/casting cost of the early removal. If either of those things were less aggravating than they currently are the list would be the best blue list.

[Asthereal]

BUG Tempo does have the problem that Disfigure and Dismember are the 1cc creature removal available to it and they both have significant drawbacks. Abrupt Decay is a great all purpose removal tool for the meta right now but it often doesn't happen fast enough on the draw. That's the primary thing holding BUG back from being the best blue shell list right now. Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares are just objectively better at removing early creatures than anything BUG Tempo has available.

It's a good trade-off though. If BUG had a removal spell with the overall value of bolts nobody would play anything else.
Your post contains absolutely no response to mine. Please remove the quoted bit.
EDIT: Thanks. :smile:

[btm10]

I had a question about this as well. I'm building TES which requires 2 Underground Seas. If I want to play that AND lend Team America to someone, could it function on just 2 Seas, 3 Trops, and a Bayou? could stifle work with that list?

I'd probably run another fetch or a Watery Grave before I added Bayou if you're going to be on the Stifle plan. Bayou is a necessary evil if you're on Hymn/Liliana/Tombstalker, but it's really bad when you want your first two lands to make UUBG.

[apon]

Hi. After a record of 6-1, i decided to ID last round of the MKM Rome legacy main event and finished 9th :(

Feel sad about the result but happy with the good performance of the deck.

I won to UW control, Deathblade, goblin stompy, dredge, miracles, UWR pyro and lost to elves.
My friend with the same 60 and only 4 changes to the sideboard made top 8.

Hymn to tourach was the MVP. I only played 1 copy the day before on the trial, and decided to change.


Maindeck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 pithing needle
3 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Pierce

[Manipulato]

Hi. After a record of 6-1, i decided to ID last round of the MKM Rome legacy main event and finished 9th :(

Feel sad about the result but happy with the good performance of the deck.

I won to UW control, Deathblade, goblin stompy, dredge, miracles, UWR pyro and lost to elves.
My friend with the same 60 and only 4 changes to the sideboard made top 8.

Hymn to tourach was the MVP. I only played 1 copy the day before on the trial, and decided to change.


Maindeck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 pithing needle
3 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
3 Spell Pierce

No love for Tombstalker instead of Tasigur? The rest is really standard classic TA which I also prefer. Congrats

[redesign1991]

I must admit that this looks like a really interesting deck to play. I've been wanting to play a delver deck in Legacy for quite some time now, but I've always been looking at UWR Delver since I own a playset of Stoneforges. Though lately I've been contemplating about selling those, mainly because I find the UWR Delver manabase quite expensive. Of course, this deck's manabase is also expensive, except for the fact that I'd still need 2 more U. Sea's and 1 more Bayou if I'd not go on the Stifle plan (from what I've been reading).

So let me ask, which version is better? Stifle or more discard focussed?

Still contemplating a bit, since a playset of Tarmogoyf isn't exactly cheap either.

Also, since I haven't been playing on a non-basic list yet (only played reanimator [and UW Stoneblade without duals and wastes] before in Legacy), how do you cope with blood moon? I just don't like to insta-lose to it. Running basics is a no-go?

[Manipulato]

I must admit that this looks like a really interesting deck to play. I've been wanting to play a delver deck in Legacy for quite some time now, but I've always been looking at UWR Delver since I own a playset of Stoneforges. Though lately I've been contemplating about selling those, mainly because I find the UWR Delver manabase quite expensive. Of course, this deck's manabase is also expensive, except for the fact that I'd still need 2 more U. Sea's and 1 more Bayou if I'd not go on the Stifle plan (from what I've been reading).

1.) So let me ask, which version is better? Stifle or more discard focussed?

2.) Still contemplating a bit, since a playset of Tarmogoyf isn't exactly cheap either.

3.) Also, since I haven't been playing on a non-basic list yet (only played reanimator [and UW Stoneblade without duals and wastes] before in Legacy), how do you cope with blood moon? I just don't like to insta-lose to it. Running basics is a no-go?

1. There is no directly better or worse...It depends on personal playstyle and preference. The stifle version is more a classic delver tempo strategy & the Hymb version is more a tap out sorcery speed version of the deck. Both have they´re pro´s & con`s.

2. Tarmogoyf is needed in both variants. So that point doesnt really matter...

3. Yes, playing basics in this deck is a no-go. We cant support basics with that low land count and cards like Daze or Hymn, Lili, Stalker etc....

Greetings

[apon]

No love for Tombstalker instead of Tasigur? The rest is really standard classic TA which I also prefer. Congrats

For me the possibilities for 1/2 solts in addition to delver, tarmo and deathrite are:
Taisgur is 4/5 for B5 : can be cast easily in turn 3. Disadvantage legendary and power. His ability is rarely used.
Hooting Mandrills is a 4/5 trample for G5 : could be better than tasigur
Gurmag Angler is 5/5 for B6 : costs 1 more than tasigur, and has no legendaty problem and no ability.
Tombstalker is a 5/5 flying for BB6. Once in play is the best creature, but is the slowest of them

BUG delver is still a tempo deck, that means, the soonest you put your beast, the more preasure your opponent will have.

I'm going to test Mandrils and Gurmag. Stalker seems to slow.

[Higgs]

Alright. After a long and tireless search for the right "blue" deck, I've come to this secluded alley and stumbled upon this community to study under your tutelage of the dark arts.

In all seriousness, I cannot find the right "blue" deck for myself. I currently have D&T, Elves, and plan on building burn (maybe goblins instead) as well as building MUD. My problem with blue is, I want to use as many of the best blue spells in Legacy as I can and not get bored using them (for reference: brainstorm, ponder, force of will, and daze). I have an OmniTell deck with the four show and tell required, but the spells search for combo pieces, not threats so it bores me (I also don't get to play daze). I tried Merfolk but they have no use for brainstorm or ponder which kind of turns me off a little. I also tried Sneak & Show, but they are similar to OmniTell.

So I have come to this community to ask if this deck is more fun then the blue decks that I mentioned? (So is it more fun than an Islandwalking army or dropping Show and Tell?) If it is a fun deck to invest in, I am missing the goyfs and blue duals. Anyway I can build it without sacrificing much of it's power while collecting other pieces?

Good luck on your search. I was on the same pursuit for years and after years of trial and error decided that no blue deck in Legacy fit the bill for what I'm looking for so I switched my FoWs to my Vintage deck and sleeved up Dark Rituals for my Legacy deck. My experience with Team America has been, that this is an aggro deck at the end of the day and despite the counterspells you are playing you don't really feel like a 'blue mage'. Plus I don't like losing to decks like Elves and D&T when I'm the one casting Brainstorms so... UWx decks feel more like blue decks to me but they always have a hard time against BUG colors, midrange and random stuff like 12-post, goblins, MUD etc. so there is really no perfect blue deck (disclaimer: This is my humble opinion.). I think you just have to play the deck and see if you enjoy how it plays against the format.

[Will_L]

Stifle is insane in the mirror and against any other Delver decks. Stifle obviously compliments Wasteland really well too

I like Stifle build more because it feels tighter and faster... I don't like needing/wanting BB on turn 2 for for Hymn and then trying to cast Decays and TNN/Clique... I just really like the 3sea/3trop/8fetch/4waste manabase. Plus if you draw Bayou as your only land in your opening hand... That can be pretty bad, horrible even without a DRS to go with it.

The Hymn/Lili build has stronger late game, but is that where we really wanna be anyway?

[Quasim0ff]

I play blue based BUG Delver

Stifle is insane in the mirror and against any other Delver decks. Stifle obviously compliments Wasteland really well too

I like Stifle build more because it feels tighter and faster... I don't like needing/wanting GB/BB on turn 2 for Decay or Hymn... I just really like the 3sea/3trop/8fetch/4waste manabase

The Hymn/Lili build has stronger late game, but is that where we really wanna be anyway?
I'm not playing this deck (anymore) but I'd actually argue that, yes - You do actively want to go longer than the other delver decks, due to the lack of reach (lightning bolts).

[Unassigned]

Stifle is insane in the mirror and against any other Delver decks. Stifle obviously compliments Wasteland really well too

I like Stifle build more because it feels tighter and faster... I don't like needing/wanting BB on turn 2 for for Hymn and then trying to cast Decays and TNN/Clique... I just really like the 3sea/3trop/8fetch/4waste manabase. Plus if you draw Bayou as your only land in your opening hand... That can be pretty bad, horrible even without a DRS to go with it.

The Hymn/Lili build has stronger late game, but is that where we really wanna be anyway?

I've loved the Stifle build a lot more than the Hymn build in all of the Delver mirrors. Tasigur is also a huge bonus to the deck. Feel free to see my list on the previous page. Keep in mind that the late game is absolutely NOT where Stifle BUG wants to be. The goal is mana denial and land cheap, powerful threats to close the game out quickly. Daze, Spell Pierce and Wasteland lose their effectiveness in the late game.

[wwoning]

For the black builds, I`m wondering: Why is Dimir Charm not more played (MB or SB)? It doesn't seem like a bad choice with D&T, ANT, Elves and Miracles as the decks to beat?

[Asthereal]

For the black builds, I`m wondering: Why is Dimir Charm not more played (MB or SB)? It doesn't seem like a bad choice with D&T, ANT, Elves and Miracles as the decks to beat?
Another slow card. More situational than you might think.
I know it looks really promising, but it's got quite a few cons.

[cheerios]

Hi Guys,

Do we board out the hymns against reanimator? Let's say I have 3 thoughtseizes, 3 spell pierces, and 2 cages in the sideboard. Thanks in advance!

Cheers

[iamajellydonut]

Hi Guys,

Do we board out the hymns against reanimator? Let's say I have 3 thoughtseizes, 3 spell pierces, and 2 cages in the sideboard. Thanks in advance!

Cheers

Just post your fucking deck. Or at least your full sideboard. It takes two seconds. Because, and this may come as a shocker, the decision is largely based off of whatever else is actually in your deck.

[cheerios]

Here's the decklist:

4underground sea
1tropical island
2bayou
3misty rainforest
4polluted delta
2verdant catacomb
4wasteland
4brainstorm
4ponder
4abrupt decay
2lilliana of the veil
4force of will
4daze
4hymn to tourach
4delver of secrets
4tarmogoyf
4deathrite shaman
2tombstalker


sb
2disfigure
2grafdigger's cage
2golgari charm
3spell pierce
3thoughtseize
1engineered plague
2pithing needle

Cheers

[cheerios]

I just started playing the deck after years of playing rug delver, so I was wondering how other pilots were approaching the matchup. I figured I could save some testing time by getting the opinion of other players in this thread. Anyway, I used to cut 4 decays, 2 tombstalkers, 1 land, and 1 hymn. I guess I'm doing it wrong then. Thanks for the response.

Cheers

[iamajellydonut]

Sorry. It's been a vicious day at work. Still, though, the thing to take away is "play a few rounds". Both Abrupt Decay and Hymn to Tourach have their merits in the match-up, but neither are particularly useful, so the easiest bet is just removing them. However, when you play rounds, if you find you'd much rather Tombstalker be Hymn to Tourach as he is too slow to present an effective clock and you need more hate, then do it. Same with whatever else.

[btm10]

For the black builds, I`m wondering: Why is Dimir Charm not more played (MB or SB)? It doesn't seem like a bad choice with D&T, ANT, Elves and Miracles as the decks to beat?

It was good when Cruise was legal because countering Cruise was worth UB; there are better options now that we aren't trying to deal with Ancestral Recall.

[blackdiamonds]

Any chance at both stifle n hymm?

[apon]

For me the possibilities for 1/2 solts in addition to delver, tarmo and deathrite are:
Taisgur is 4/5 for B5 : can be cast easily in turn 3. Disadvantage legendary and power. His ability is rarely used.
Hooting Mandrills is a 4/5 trample for G5 : could be better than tasigur
Gurmag Angler is 5/5 for B6 : costs 1 more than tasigur, and has no legendaty problem and no ability.
Tombstalker is a 5/5 flying for BB6. Once in play is the best creature, but is the slowest of them

BUG delver is still a tempo deck, that means, the soonest you put your beast, the more preasure your opponent will have.

I'm going to test Mandrils and Gurmag. Stalker seems to slow.

Well, i was convinced Hooting Mandrills was a 4/5, but after some days realized it's a 4/4, then goes out of my list.
Stalker is the slower one, then tasigur and Gurmag are the best ones. I'm going to test one of each in my next tournament.

[Quasim0ff]

Any chance at both stifle n hymm?
Very unlikely, as that'd be very reactive and present no real clock.

[IzexD]

Been playing this deck for a bit now and I really like 2 Tasigur in the maindeck, it's like goyfs 5 and 6 plus a mana sink that nets card advantage. I also have been playing a life from the loam in the board and it's been awesome. What do you guys think. This is my list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Nilhil Spellbomb
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thoughtsieze
1 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Submerge

[iostream]

It seems like Omnitell is probably going to become a lot more popular thanks to its strong recent results. I think our discard angle is still pretty strong, but not as good as it used to be (when they were a three-card combo). We probably need to respect the deck some more as far as sideboarding goes.

Anyone have ideas about good, high-impact sideboard cards?

[sdematt]

Krosan Grip is a really good un'. If they're cutting Enter the Infinite and Omniscience now becomes their horse, Getting rid of Omni seems fine to me.

-Matt

[phazonmutant]

Krosan Grip is a really good un'. If they're cutting Enter the Infinite and Omniscience now becomes their horse, Getting rid of Omni seems fine to me.

-Matt

KGrip and Golgari Charm are fine and worth bringing in, but discard is still very effective against Show and Tell decks. The new Omni decks have a worse manabase than older lists, almost as bad as Sneak and Show, so it's quite reasonable to disrupt their mana enough to make them unable to cantrip several times in a turn, and keep counterspells live against Dig and Show and Tell.

[sdematt]

Any love for display of dominance? ;)

[defector]

Also the K Grips are very strong against the Leylines they can being in against you. It's a great foil to that and can open up your disruption better. I think 2 Cliques in the board for snt is pretty good too. 2 Grip 2 Clique is prob where I would start.

[Asthereal]

Also the K Grips are very strong against the Leylines they can being in against you. It's a great foil to that and can open up your disruption better. I think 2 Cliques in the board for snt is pretty good too. 2 Grip 2 Clique is prob where I would start.
Golgari Charm also kills enchantments, but for a mana less. Vulnerable to counterspells though.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

It has been awhile since my last tournament report. This is largely due to division of my time. Work has been really gearing up in addition to my focus on Leveling up within the Judge program. I ran more or less a standard list this week to a 3-0-1 finish. I played against Jeskai Ascendancy Combo (2-0), UWr Miracles (2-1), Lands (1-1-1), and Death and Taxes (2-0). I would have been able to seal the Lands match with another turn or two with the line that I chose but ultimately there was a line that was slightly higher risk that in this particular scenario would have won me the match on turn 4 of extra turns. Anyway here is my current list.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut

Overall the list continues to preform well. I think all of the match ups that I played are ~50% or better (I think this is typically the case in the overall field). This configuration gives you a lot of room to transition from the early attack with Delvers and Goyfs to a late game grind with Liliana/Bob/Tasigur. I am still not completely sure where I fall on my disruption package and 13-14th creatures. I was running 2 Tasigur and that felt a little clunky. I have really liked going back to Dark Confidant. Every time I drew it I was extra careful to navigate to a position wherein he would draw me extra cards. I am not sure if the 1-1 split is where I really want to be, but it has been working the past two weeks or so. I guess it is worth noting here that I am not a fan of True-Name Nemesis. I think without equipment it is good but not great. I did activate Tasigur a number of times over the course of the evening. I may actually consider Gurmag Angler for that extra point of power. As far as the disruption, I really like some number usually 2-3 Spell Pierce. As for the discard, I am always a little unsure of whether I want Toughtseize for precision or Hymn for raw power. I think 1-3 Lili are all fine. I shaved 1 for the Dimir Charm and have been pleased so far... it continues to over preform for me; one of the modes is always live especially if you are running Delve cards. I have also been thinking about including 1-2 Dig Through Time. The U/R and U/R/x delver decks have been including it, we could certainly support the card, and it is very powerful. I may give this some testing over the next few weeks. I am don't think that we need to devote extra sideboard slots for Omnishow. With counter magic, discard, a clock and sideboard enchantment destruction, we have everything that we need to beat them consistently. Thanks for reading! Hit me up if you have questions or comments!

[Manipulato]

Hey folks,

today I went in 1st place with 4 : 1 in our local monthly legacy turney.

MU's were as follow :

Round 1: Bye :rolleyes:

Round 2: UR Omnitell -> Won 2:0

Round 3: Reanimator -> Won 2:1

Round 4: Elves -> Won 2:0

Round 5: BG Chains of Mephistofeles / Anvil of Bogardan Control/Combo ???:eek: -> Lost 0:2 :eyebrow:

This time I tested Dark Confidant instead of my regular Tombstalker build, here's the decklist's:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
1 Sylvan Library

Im not 100% sold about the 2 DK...Will try 2 Tasigur next time...

Greetings

[KobeBryan]

Hey folks,

today I went in 1st place with 4 : 1 in our local monthly legacy turney.

MU's were as follow :

Round 1: Bye :rolleyes:

Round 2: UR Omnitell -> Won 2:0

Round 3: Reanimator -> Won 2:1

Round 4: Elves -> Won 2:0

Round 5: BG Chains of Mephistofeles / Anvil of Bogardan Control/Combo ???:eek: -> Lost 0:2 :eyebrow:

This time I tested Dark Confidant instead of my regular Tombstalker build, here's the decklist's:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
1 Sylvan Library

Im not 100% sold about the 2 DK...Will try 2 Tasigur next time...

Greetings

I don't like double tasigur

I like 1 tasigur and tombstalker/hooting

[apon]

I don't like double tasigur

I like 1 tasigur and tombstalker/hooting

1 tasigur, 1 gurmag is the correct choice for me

[Manipulato]

Keep calm guys, no reason to get angry or unfriendly.

Well I think DK is better than Tasigur /Gurmag against Miracles and UWR Blade because of the Jace bounce. Also he is better in keeping the game going, especially against combo where he draws more disruption. But I have to say that he just dies to everything and has no good synergy with Golgari Charm...Tasigur or Tombstalker would have won me minimum 1 game against this BG Chains deck. I also really love the higher level of aggression with real beaters.
Until now I played 2 Tombstalker and was really happy with him, but Miracles & Blade are so popular right now that I'm a bit unsure...

But ok, all wins came from the strong 4offs and not the 2offs, so no big thing...

[KobeBryan]

1 tasigur, 1 gurmag is the correct choice for me

I have considered gurmag, but TNN and young pyros have been annoying

[Deckerator]

I play 1x Tombstalker and 1 x Tasigur because i like both and both have there individual pros and cons.
IMO there is no right choice it is often meta dependant.


I played in a small local tournament. Lost to Miracles without having a real chance to win. I pressured him down twice to ~ 8 life and then he stabilized.
How do you guys board against?

I tried not to overextend but in fact of this i was to slow and did not enough pressure to kill him before he got the board. The second round he got his Blood Moon and i had no answer to it.
I had to destroy his SDT because it gave him so much card advantage but didnt know how.

Hope you have advices how to play against Miracles and some good boarding advices ;)

[KobeBryan]

I play 1x Tombstalker and 1 x Tasigur because i like both and both have there individual pros and cons.
IMO there is no right choice it is often meta dependant.


I played in a small local tournament. Lost to Miracles without having a real chance to win. I pressured him down twice to ~ 8 life and then he stabilized.
How do you guys board against?

I tried not to overextend but in fact of this i was to slow and did not enough pressure to kill him before he got the board. The second round he got his Blood Moon and i had no answer to it.
I had to destroy his SDT because it gave him so much card advantage but didnt know how.

Hope you have advices how to play against Miracles and some good boarding advices ;)

You should use pithing needle, null rod, sylvan library, clique, maelstrom pulse Those are the most basic ones.

Then afterwards, you can use either one of the following: zur's weirding, creeping tar pits, winter orb.

Board out: disfigure, 1 goyf, 1 wasteland, 4 dazes. Thats 7 cards to choose from.

[FoolofaTook]

I had to destroy his SDT because it gave him so much card advantage but didnt know how.

When he taps his top to draw he's paying the cost of the activation. Respond to that by decaying his top. He still gets the draw but getting rid of the top is important.

[Esper3k]

Most good Miracles players won't pop their Tops unless they absolutely have to.

A more common way you can get rid of it is ADing it in response to them cracking a fetch land. They'll get that card but you'll at least get rid of it for awhile (hopefully).