[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[btm10]

Greetings All!
Overall the list continues to preform well. I think all of the match ups that I played are ~50% or better (I think this is typically the case in the overall field). This configuration gives you a lot of room to transition from the early attack with Delvers and Goyfs to a late game grind with Liliana/Bob/Tasigur. I am still not completely sure where I fall on my disruption package and 13-14th creatures. I was running 2 Tasigur and that felt a little clunky. I have really liked going back to Dark Confidant. Every time I drew it I was extra careful to navigate to a position wherein he would draw me extra cards. I am not sure if the 1-1 split is where I really want to be, but it has been working the past two weeks or so. I guess it is worth noting here that I am not a fan of True-Name Nemesis. I think without equipment it is good but not great. I did activate Tasigur a number of times over the course of the evening. I may actually consider Gurmag Angler for that extra point of power. As far as the disruption, I really like some number usually 2-3 Spell Pierce. As for the discard, I am always a little unsure of whether I want Toughtseize for precision or Hymn for raw power. I think 1-3 Lili are all fine. I shaved 1 for the Dimir Charm and have been pleased so far... it continues to over preform for me; one of the modes is always live especially if you are running Delve cards. I have also been thinking about including 1-2 Dig Through Time. The U/R and U/R/x delver decks have been including it, we could certainly support the card, and it is very powerful. I may give this some testing over the next few weeks. I am don't think that we need to devote extra sideboard slots for Omnishow. With counter magic, discard, a clock and sideboard enchantment destruction, we have everything that we need to beat them consistently. Thanks for reading! Hit me up if you have questions or comments!

I think that you're right on Angler being at least worth testing, and the Pierces have treated me well too. I don't know about Hymn vs. Thoughtseize either (but I agree on the tradeoff being made). I think it's largely about how you want to position yourself along the aggro-midrange spectrum with Seize becoming better the more interested you become in grinding rather than destabilizing your opponent long enough to kill them. I think Angler likely plays better with Hymn, Seize is better with Sylvan Library and/or Dig Through Time, and Bob can play either way. I'm obviously a fan of Dimir Charm as well. The only matchup where it's not great is RUG Delver, but we're pretty solidly favored there and the matchup only gets better after board.


Most good Miracles players won't pop their Tops unless they absolutely have to.

A more common way you can get rid of it is ADing it in response to them cracking a fetch land. They'll get that card but you'll at least get rid of it for awhile (hopefully).

This. Also, by the time they find their next Top, they'll hopefully be dead. Ridding yourself of a Top is a slightly harder trick with the Stifle build (because you can't make sure they aren't sandbagging a copy in their hand), but the Stifle build is better at fighting over Entreat/Terminus.

[Sturtzilla]

I don't know about Hymn vs. Thoughtseize either (but I agree on the tradeoff being made). I think it's largely about how you want to position yourself along the aggro-midrange spectrum with Seize becoming better the more interested you become in grinding rather than destabilizing your opponent long enough to kill them. I think Angler likely plays better with Hymn, Seize is better with Sylvan Library and/or Dig Through Time, and Bob can play either way.

I think that it is very interesting that you analyze Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach in the manner that you have. I would think that Thoughtseize would play better with Gurmag Angler, as you can fuel casting him (it?... it, I guess, it is a Zombie Fish, after all) more quickly than Hymn. Hymn often feels clunky to me. Unless you are playing against a combo deck, the "correct" turn two play is often ambiguous. Hell, what do I know, I have been judging for the last 6-8 months and only have played locals. My analysis of the meta game and building a deck to effectively attack it may need some reconditioning.

Although I have never killed myself with a Dark Confidant flip or put myself to lethal on board to a flip (I have 5ed myself once or twice to a Force of Will), I think that running good old Bob along with Dig Through Time is asking for trouble. Sure... "greatness at any cost..." but jokes aside, if you build your deck in this fashion, eventually that dis-synergy will catch up with you. Tasigur, the Golden Fang may not be the best replacement as he and DTT compete for resources. Just some thoughts.



This. Also, by the time they find their next Top, they'll hopefully be dead. Ridding yourself of a Top is a slightly harder trick with the Stifle build (because you can't make sure they aren't sandbagging a copy in their hand), but the Stifle build is better at fighting over Entreat/Terminus.

Dimir Charm all day! In addition to playing this awesome card, you get the added bonuses of your opponent being confused as to what the hell this spell does and tilting as to how they should have played around it.



You should use pithing needle, null rod, sylvan library, clique, maelstrom pulse Those are the most basic ones. Then afterwards, you can use either one of the following: zur's weirding, creeping tar pits, winter orb. Board out: disfigure, 1 goyf, 1 wasteland, 4 dazes. Thats 7 cards to choose from.

I agree. From my above list: -2 or 3 Wasteland, -4 Daze, -1 Hymn. Wasteland can usually be played around easily. As I am not playing Stifle, Wasteland can be played around even more easily. Daze very quickly becomes outclassed. Hymn is great on say turn 2-3 but is usually pretty poor in the mid to later game as resources tend to get rather low. I like to bring in +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Thoughtseize (not the best, but nice on turn 1-3 to snipe Jaces), +1 Null Rod, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Krosan Grip, and +1 Vendilion Clique.

I really like the V.Clique in this match up. It can cycle a Miracled card from our opponent's hand, it gives valuable information, when cast at end step it can be surprise pressure to a Jace. It can also get dead cards out of our hands and is an evasive threat. Sylvan Library should also not be underestimated. It really lets you settle in for a longer battle on the front of card quality, as well as serving as a way to get ahead in simple card advantage. Swords to Plowshares really lets you draw some extra cards, when they take out Tas or Goyfs. I am not the biggest fan of Maelstrom Pulse. Sorcery speed makes it feel clunky and you tend to have to tap out for it, which usually means that you walk into a Spell Pierce. I prefer to take the Jaces preemptively or counter them on the stack with Pieces and/or FoW.

Also I had been running a singleton Zur's Weirding in my board. When you resolve this card against non-damage combo or control decks you are STRONGLY favored to win. I have resolved this card a number of times against Miracles, 12-Post, and Omnishow, and the games become academic. Your opponent will not be able to win and it is only a matter of time before you do. I have shaved it from my board for the purposes of testing some other cards. I have resolved this card approximately 10-15 times and have never lost a game once it has resolved.

[FoolofaTook]

Zur's Weirding and Dig Through Time is a great combo. Zur's Weirding and opposing Dig through Time is a loss.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Zur's Weirding and Dig Through Time is a great combo. Zur's Weirding and opposing Dig through Time is a loss.
Is this a troll, or did you just not rtfc?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[FoolofaTook]

Is this a troll, or did you just not rtfc?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Dig Through Time isn't a draw. It's a look at top 7 and put 2 in your hand. Zur's doesn't trigger on anything but draws.

In this meta you'd need very good information to play Zur's Weirding. Any opponent playing DTT, the wishes, Intuition, etc would be a risky opponent to play it against.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Dig Through Time isn't a draw. It's a look at top 7 and put 2 in your hand. Zur's doesn't trigger on anything but draws.
Right, that's what I'm saying, yo.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[FoolofaTook]

Right, that's what I'm saying, yo.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

I guess I missed your point. My point was that Zur's Weirding isn't a particularly good SB card against combo and control in this meta. There's too much DTT in general floating around out there. Then you have OmniTell which has about ten ways to get around it built into the shell with DTT, Cunning Wish and Intuition.

Having Zur's Weirding in hand instead of something to prevent Show and Tell from resolving sounds really bad on the face of it.

[H]

Finished a somewhat disappointing 23rd at SCG Dallas yesterday (5-2-1). We got home about a half-hour before I had to be a work, so I can't post my list but there wasn't much special about it.

I was pleased to be 2-0-1 (draw versus Joe Lossett) against Miracles, the matchup I definitely loaded up against. I lost to RUG Delver (nut drawn on game 2 and 3) and UR Delver (his draws were good and mine were not).

I'll try to give more details later, sorry for a poor post, operating on an hour and a half sleep.

[Sturtzilla]

Dig Through Time isn't a draw. It's a look at top 7 and put 2 in your hand. Zur's doesn't trigger on anything but draws. In this meta you'd need very good information to play Zur's Weirding. Any opponent playing DTT, the wishes, Intuition, etc would be a risky opponent to play it against.

A couple things here. 1) Zur's Weirding doesn't trigger. It has no trigger clauses in its text. It contains a static effect and also creates a replacement effect that occurs whenever a player would draw a card. 2) You are correct that it is bad in the face of a Dig through Time being put on the stack by an opponent. However, if you are running discard, you can strip items like this from your opponent's hand before resolving Weirding. It does still do a pretty good job at preventing them from drawing a DTT.



I guess I missed your point. My point was that Zur's Weirding isn't a particularly good SB card against combo and control in this meta. There's too much DTT in general floating around out there. Then you have OmniTell which has about ten ways to get around it built into the shell with DTT, Cunning Wish and Intuition. Having Zur's Weirding in hand instead of something to prevent Show and Tell from resolving sounds really bad on the face of it.

I don't think that it is the best silver bullet out there. It is something to consider. I think if you plan on facing a ton of Miracles, it is still a really good piece of tech. It may have lost some ground in a few on the combo match ups. If you can navigate to a position where your opponent is low on resources (discard/counterspells do this effectively), then resolving Zur's Weirding basically ensures that they cannot get back into the game. In these match ups, as we are typically the aggressor, this means they will be able to deny fewer draws and likely succumb to our board.

[FoolofaTook]

It may have lost some ground in a few on the combo match ups. If you can navigate to a position where your opponent is low on resources (discard/counterspells do this effectively), then resolving Zur's Weirding basically ensures that they cannot get back into the game. In these match ups, as we are typically the aggressor, this means they will be able to deny fewer draws and likely succumb to our board.

If you can navigate to a position where the combo player is low on resources you have won about 90% of the time. That's what aggro control hopes to accomplish against combo. Zur's Weirding is win-more in that circumstance and if it sat in your hand during the process of getting the combo player into that unenviable position it was win-less for each turn it sat in your hand while that was happening.

In the case of OmniTell the Omnitell player has as many cards as BUG does that have to be denied because each of those cards gets around Zur's Weirding in some way once you have landed it. Then there are another 8 to 10 cards that you'll deny because of the queasy effect of not being willing to put half the combo in your opponent's hand even though you think it's quite possible you can isolate the other half with your life total as a buffer.

The simplest case is that you cannot say yes to Cunning Wish because the best case is that they just go and get uncounterable bounce from the SB and then have control over when Zur's Weirding goes back to your hand. Then you have Intuition, which is a no because they'll go get Cunning Wish x3 and put you in the same position just a turn down the road. Then you have Dig Through Time, which is a no. So Show and Tell pops up on the pile and you say no because you can only say no maybe 7 times or so and Show and Tell is the kill card in the list. Omniscience pops up and the queasy feeling settles in.

If the combo player had no valid pieces in hand when you landed Zur's Weirding then you're in much better shape but you probably already had the game won at that point anyway.

[Sturtzilla]

If you can navigate to a position where the combo player is low on resources you have won about 90% of the time. That's what aggro control hopes to accomplish against combo. Zur's Weirding is win-more in that circumstance and if it sat in your hand during the process of getting the combo player into that unenviable position it was win-less for each turn it sat in your hand while that was happening.

It may be the case that Zur's Weirding is a win-more in this specific combo match up. "Low on resources" is a bit of a vague statement. When I originally wrote this previous post, I didn't mean Hellbent. If your Omnishow or Sneak and Show opponent is Hellbent, you may have won say 90% of the time (that is assuming that you have a clock; they could still draw out of this). There is some small portion of these instances where they can draw gas and then draw gas and get you.

I disagree with your second statement, that ZW is win-less for each turn that it sat in your hand. Based on your statement the same could be said about any card that doesn't line up well with what your opponent is trying to do. For example, you could never have a good opportunity to jam a Tarmogoyf in a given game. Does that make it win-less? If so, should we be boarding out all of our Tarmogoyfs? Furthermore, what if our Omnishow opponent goes off on turn two and we never get a shot to play a third land. Should we start boarding out lands? I feel that there is a fundamental flaw in the logic. Just because you didn't use a card doesn't means it was worthless or detrimental. At the end of the day it is still a blue card that pitches to FoW, is a card that can get shuffled away with a Brainstorm, and has the potential upside of more or less locking out our opponent long enough for us to finish them off. I understand what you are saying, in that, this ZW could have been better if it had been something like Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Spell Pierce, Counterspell or Force of Will. However none of these card will single-handedly ensure that you have multiple turns, like a correctly played ZW will. I want to resolve a Delver, maybe a Goyf, and then proceed keep them from resolving anything meaningful. Zur's Weirding allows for you to be able to do that for a number of turns. I get that I may not sell you on Zur's Weirding. That is totally cool. It may be win-more some of the time, but it provides a unique effect that lets you steal games you otherwise would have lost. I am not playing it at the moment, but when I know a good portion of my local meta is going to be Miracles, it comes back in. There are plenty of Non-Miracles match ups where I would bring it in post-board.

Just to get up on my soapbox for a minute... I think I said this a bit earlier (maybe in fewer words), but I am still not sure why everyone is so hung up on Omnishow. Sure we saw a few copies in the Top 8 of the Japanese Legacy GP. Japan has the bluest and most combo heavy sub-meta in the world. Just because a deck does well at one GP or Open doesn't directly translate to it being the "Best Deck" (I think this is a really poor assumption that lots of players make; and actually I see/hear friends at my LGS do it all the time; I will overhear, "X is the best deck in Y format" or "X is just positioned so well right now." Sure it may be if you hit your good match ups all day, know your deck, your opponents' decks, how the two line up each round, you draw well, your opponent draws meh or worse, etc. There are simply too many good decks in Legacy for such a statement to be universally true and too many extraneous variables in the operations of a Magic tournament to make statements like this worthwhile.). Moreover it doesn't mean that everyone at your LGS is going to turn their deck over to play the new deck. Legacy is/can be an expensive investment and as such people don't typically change decks often or rapidly. I agree that maybe there will be a slight uptick in Omnishow's portion of upcoming SCG Opens. We are talking maybe a couple percentage points; it isn't going to become 20-30% of the meta overnight. To get Tunnel Vision about a perceived "best deck," takes time and focus away from being able to prepare for other decks. That being said, I think that we have solid game against them. We have a good clock, discard, countermagic, and enchantment destruction. These are exactly what you need to take this deck out. Just my thoughts.

[btm10]

It may be the case that Zur's Weirding is a win-more in this specific combo match up. "Low on resources" is a bit of a vague statement. When I originally wrote this previous post, I didn't mean Hellbent. If your Omnishow or Sneak and Show opponent is Hellbent, you may have won say 90% of the time (that is assuming that you have a clock; they could still draw out of this). There is some small portion of these instances where they can draw gas and then draw gas and get you.

I disagree with your second statement, that ZW is win-less for each turn that it sat in your hand. Based on your statement the same could be said about any card that doesn't line up well with what your opponent is trying to do. For example, you could never have a good opportunity to jam a Tarmogoyf in a given game. Does that make it win-less? If so, should we be boarding out all of our Tarmogoyfs? Furthermore, what if our Omnishow opponent goes off on turn two and we never get a shot to play a third land. Should we start boarding out lands? I feel that there is a fundamental flaw in the logic. Just because you didn't use a card doesn't means it was worthless or detrimental. At the end of the day it is still a blue card that pitches to FoW, is a card that can get shuffled away with a Brainstorm, and has the potential upside of more or less locking out our opponent long enough for us to finish them off. I understand what you are saying, in that, this ZW could have been better if it had been something like Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Spell Pierce, Counterspell or Force of Will. However none of these card will single-handedly ensure that you have multiple turns, like a correctly played ZW will. I want to resolve a Delver, maybe a Goyf, and then proceed keep them from resolving anything meaningful. Zur's Weirding allows for you to be able to do that for a number of turns. I get that I may not sell you on Zur's Weirding. That is totally cool. It may be win-more some of the time, but it provides a unique effect that lets you steal games you otherwise would have lost. I am not playing it at the moment, but when I know a good portion of my local meta is going to be Miracles, it comes back in. There are plenty of Non-Miracles match ups where I would bring it in post-board.


Yep.

The number of times that you're casting Weirding into an opponent's unknown hand that has an answer to Weirding and a way to kill you are pretty small. Sure, there are corner cases where you windmill slam it against Miracles on turn 3 because if it connects they can't win and then they reveal REB+fetch in their hand. Whoops, got me there. The overwhelming majority of times, however, that's not going to happen. The same thing is basically true of OmniTell (also, can we please start calling the deck "Know and Tell (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30845_A-Deck-By-Any-Other-Name-The-Guide-To-Naming-Magic-Decks.html)"?) - how often are they passing the turn on turn 3 or 4 with SnT + Emrakul + protection in hand? Why aren't they just killing you? If they just have Show and Tell + Omniscience, they can't kill you unless they ALSO have a Dig Through Time or a Cunning Wish, and now we're in 3 card combo territory. I've also run Zur's Weirding in my board, and when it connects against any deck where you want it, you just win well over 90% of the time. It's like Blood Moon against us. Sure, they have improbable sets of outs, but in nearly all cases, the out needs to be in hand when the card is on the stack for it to matter at all.



Just to get up on my soapbox for a minute... I think I said this a bit earlier (maybe in fewer words), but I am still not sure why everyone is so hung up on Omnishow. Sure we saw a few copies in the Top 8 of the Japanese Legacy GP. Japan has the bluest and most combo heavy sub-meta in the world. Just because a deck does well at one GP or Open doesn't directly translate to it being the "Best Deck" (I think this is a really poor assumption that lots of players make; and actually I see/hear friends at my LGS do it all the time; I will overhear, "X is the best deck in Y format" or "X is just positioned so well right now." Sure it may be if you hit your good match ups all day, know your deck, your opponents' decks, how the two line up each round, you draw well, your opponent draws meh or worse, etc. There are simply too many good decks in Legacy for such a statement to be universally true and too many extraneous variables in the operations of a Magic tournament to make statements like this worthwhile.). Moreover it doesn't mean that everyone at your LGS is going to turn their deck over to play the new deck. Legacy is/can be an expensive investment and as such people don't typically change decks often or rapidly. I agree that maybe there will be a slight uptick in Omnishow's portion of upcoming SCG Opens. We are talking maybe a couple percentage points; it isn't going to become 20-30% of the meta overnight. To get Tunnel Vision about a perceived "best deck," takes time and focus away from being able to prepare for other decks. That being said, I think that we have solid game against them. We have a good clock, discard, countermagic, and enchantment destruction. These are exactly what you need to take this deck out. Just my thoughts.

I agree (again), and would go so far as to say that I think Omni is still one of our best matchups. It was extremely good when they had to Enter the Infinite to win, and it's only marginally easier for them now. Hymn, Thoughtseize, and Liliana are still incredible against them. Countering their cantrips gives you a ton of time because now they're forced to either spend protection on assembling the combo or just get one-for-oned while you have Delver/DRS/Goyf on the table. Dig can get them back into the game, but it needs to hit some very specific cards in order to win on the spot. You still probably kill them just the same if they start hellbent and cast Dig Through Time into Show and Tell + Omniscience. We'll also ignore that that line costs at least 2UUU and involves no protection. Can they win? Yes. Is the matchup in our favor? Almost surely.

[Whitefaces]

BUG Delver is Omnitells worst matchup, but quite a large margin. We have a fast clock, permission and discard plus whatever nasty permanents in the SB. Speaking of tunnel vision, you might just being perceiving it as a weaker deck than it really is because you're piloting BUG Delver. I feel like it's only just picking up steam in the states, but in Europe it's pretty rampant. I expect a very large part of the field on D2 at GP Lille will be Omni, Miracles and BUG Delver.

[FoolofaTook]

BUG Delver is Omnitells worst matchup, but quite a large margin. We have a fast clock, permission and discard plus whatever nasty permanents in the SB. Speaking of tunnel vision, you might just being perceiving it as a weaker deck than it really is because you're piloting BUG Delver. I feel like it's only just picking up steam in the states, but in Europe it's pretty rampant. I expect a very large part of the field on D2 at GP Lille will be Omni, Miracles and BUG Delver.

That sounds like a really tough meta to figure out going into the GP. If Miracles and Omnitell really are rampant then BUG Delver is a good call. However if the Miracles and OmniTell contingent know they'll be seeing BUG Delver all day it's really easy for them to chuck a couple of Blood Moons in the side and also manage outliers that give them trouble like Jund and Lands in the process.

[Whitefaces]

That sounds like a really tough meta to figure out going into the GP. If Miracles and Omnitell really are rampant then BUG Delver is a good call. However if the Miracles and OmniTell contingent know they'll be seeing BUG Delver all day it's really easy for them to chuck a couple of Blood Moons in the side and also manage outliers that give them trouble like Jund and Lands in the process.

It's this nice circle of aggro (BUG) eating combo (Omni), which eats Control (miracles, thanks to Boseiju), which in turn eats aggro. Though any match can be an upset. I feel like BUG is a dog vs Miracles as long as the pilot is good.

Unfortunately Blood Moon is a thing from Miracles again, I've hardly seen any lists not running at least one in the SB, a lot with two. BUG can beat it obviously, it's just a pain to play around.

[btm10]

BUG Delver is Omnitells worst matchup, but quite a large margin. We have a fast clock, permission and discard plus whatever nasty permanents in the SB. Speaking of tunnel vision, you might just being perceiving it as a weaker deck than it really is because you're piloting BUG Delver. I feel like it's only just picking up steam in the states, but in Europe it's pretty rampant. I expect a very large part of the field on D2 at GP Lille will be Omni, Miracles and BUG Delver.

I never said Omni was a bad deck, just that people are worrying too much about it right now. I think your assessment of what day 2 of GP Lille will look like is pretty close to accurate.


It's this nice circle of aggro (BUG) eating combo (Omni), which eats Control (miracles, thanks to Boseiju), which in turn eats aggro. Though any match can be an upset. I feel like BUG is a dog vs Miracles as long as the pilot is good.

Did you mean "not a dog...as long as the pilot is good"? I think the matchup vs. the Legends build is still slightly in our favor but we're definitely (slightly) disadvantaged against the 4 Ponder and Creatureless versions. There's lots of play to the matchup no matter what and plenty of room either player to screw up.



Unfortunately Blood Moon is a thing from Miracles again, I've hardly seen any lists not running at least one in the SB, a lot with two. BUG can beat it obviously, it's just a pain to play around.

I suspect this has something to do with Lands and the Grixis lists that don't run basics. It's still not good for us, though. I definitely think that we've all gotten sloppy with sideboard cards for Miracles (I have, at least), so that's maybe something to consider going forward.

Anyway, I went 3-1 in a local last night with the following list. It's definitely not "stock" but I've been bouncing around between a lot of decks lately and have some ideas that I've been wanting to try in my old standby. I played against 12Post (2-1), Death and Taxes (2-1), Grixis Delver (DRS-less, actual three color version; 1-2, though I did mull to 3 in one of those games and punted in the other one), and RUG Delver (2-0).

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Winter Orb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil

The sideboard needs some work, and Bob underperformed. He'll likely become something else the next time I run the deck. Angler was great every time I drew him except the time my opener was triple Wasteland, Angler, Dig, but that hand was already a mulligan for other reasons.

[Asthereal]

... and Bob underperformed. He'll likely become something else the next time I run the deck. Angler was great every time I drew him except the time my opener was triple Wasteland, Angler, Dig, but that hand was already a mulligan for other reasons.
I'd recommend a main deck Clique. The meta seems full of Miracles and Omnitell, and against those Clique is very solid.

[btm10]

I'd recommend a main deck Clique. The meta seems full of Miracles and Omnitell, and against those Clique is very solid.

Clique is an option. Another would be TNN, which I actually like more than Clique against Miracles. Testing will tell, but unfortunately I'm also exploring other decks.

I didn't say this above, but I'd like to run Tombstalker over Angler, but the cost of a BB spell is real.

[KobeBryan]

Do you guys find it worth it to dedicate more slots into the sideboard such as perish, engineered plague

just to fight elves? or would you rather shore up your sideboard slots against the 50/50 matchups.

[btm10]

Do you guys find it worth it to dedicate more slots into the sideboard such as perish, engineered plague

just to fight elves? or would you rather shore up your sideboard slots against the 50/50 matchups.

Perish kills Deathrite and Goyf. 2-3 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm, and a Cage are enough to make headway in the matchup.

[H]

Perish kills Deathrite and Goyf. 2-3 Disfigure, 2 Golgari Charm, and a Cage are enough to make headway in the matchup.

Yeah, I don't want to sacrifice other matchups or put cards that are too situational in my 75, so I use the above in my board.

My plan versus Elves really is to let Miracles beat them, then I'll beat Miracles.

[Quasim0ff]

I'd recommend a main deck Clique. The meta seems full of Miracles and Omnitell, and against those Clique is very solid.
As a miracles player, I'd much rather play against clique than Bob.

If I played vs Omni, I'd prefer clique though.

[Asthereal]

As a miracles player, I'd much rather play against clique than Bob.

If I played vs Omni, I'd prefer clique though.
That probably depends a bit on your Miracles list.

I think both are good against Miracles, but considering his list has a very high average CMC, I can imagine he didn't like Bob too much. Clique is my choice for the 13th creature right now, and it's solid against most of the meta.

[Quasim0ff]

That probably depends a bit on your Miracles list.

I think both are good against Miracles, but considering his list has a very high average CMC, I can imagine he didn't like Bob too much. Clique is my choice for the 13th creature right now, and it's solid against most of the meta.

I just read his decklist.
It seems rather suicidal playing Bob in a lost sporting 4 Force, 2 Dig and Angler, and 3 thoughseize, anyhow. :D

[btm10]

That probably depends a bit on your Miracles list.

I think both are good against Miracles, but considering his list has a very high average CMC, I can imagine he didn't like Bob too much. Clique is my choice for the 13th creature right now, and it's solid against most of the meta.

The deck's average CMC is actually only 1.56 compared to 1.35 for my previons Hymn/Liliana list with two Bobs. I was disappointed with Bob mostly because the cards I was drawing were comparatively low impact, though I'm going to test him some more and see what happens.

[Asthereal]

The deck's average CMC is actually only 1.28 compared to 1.35 for my previons Hymn/Liliana list with two Bobs. I was disappointed with Bob mostly because the cards I was drawing were comparatively low impact, though I'm going to test him some more and see what happens.
That surprises me, because I counted two DDT's and an Angler (CMC 7 and 8) in your list.
Somehow I expected that would be one of the reasons to not fancy Bob so much.
Apparently you ran that stuff in your previous list as well?

I personally wouldn't run Bob in a list with 2+ cards with CMC 7 or more next to four FoWs.

But if your reason for cutting Bob is that you feel he draws you mediocre cards, then that's not really Bob's fault, is it? :wink:

(Edit: miscounted Angler's CMC. Apparently I have trouble counting to 7 or 8 now...)

[btm10]

That surprises me, because I counted two DDT's and an Angler (all CMC 8) in your list.
Somehow I expected that would be one of the reasons to not fancy Bob so much.
Apparently you ran that stuff in your previous list as well?

I personally wouldn't run Bob in a list with 2+ cards with CMC 8 next to four FoWs.

But if your reason for cutting Bob is that you feel he draws you mediocre cards, then that's not really Bob's fault, is it? :wink:

Angler just costs 7 :P, and I had to fix the averages. So sorry about that.

You're right that it's not Bob's fault that the cards are low-impact. Like I said, I'm going to run a bit more with him.

I played 5 color Stax in Vintage the better part of a decade ago, which left me with a fairly high tolerance for running Bob and high CMC spells.

[Sturtzilla]

Do you guys find it worth it to dedicate more slots into the sideboard such as perish, engineered plague

just to fight elves? or would you rather shore up your sideboard slots against the 50/50 matchups.

I used to run 1 Engineered Plague alongside either 2 or a 1/1 split of Golgari Charm and Marsh Casualties back when True-Name Nemesis was everywhere. I found that this was very helpful in the Elves match up. It was also awesome in the one random Goblin match that I also faced about a year or so ago. Engineered Plague is situationally strong against Death and Taxes. If you name Human it takes out a very large cross-section of their deck. It can be a little tough to get into play (due to their mana denial and taxation) as it is not nearly as flexible to to instant speed casting as the other cards listed above.



The deck's average CMC is actually only 1.56 compared to 1.35 for my previons Hymn/Liliana list with two Bobs. I was disappointed with Bob mostly because the cards I was drawing were comparatively low impact, though I'm going to test him some more and see what happens.

I find this curious. In the last month or so, every time I resolve a Bob (I am only running one at the moment), I ran away with the game. I am not running the DTTs and Angler though.

I would like to take another moment to get up on the/my soapbox. Playing a few copies of cards with CMCs higher than FoW will not make your deck Dark Confidant deck unplayable. This may set you up for some bad beats; however, in a deck with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder there usually are going to be plenty of ways to make sure your Bob doesn't kill you. I have been playing this deck (BUG Delver) now for 2-3 years. Not once, in any configuration, has a Bob flipped a card that killed me or led to my demise due to my opponent's board. Maybe I am a little lucky, maybe I play alright, or maybe it is a bit of both. Sure I have 5ed myself a few times hitting a FoW and I think I got Tombstalkered once. If you are careful, playing these slight dissynergies should not totally break apart your game. Typically each card you get to draw from a Bob is like a nail in your opponent's coffin. If you take a bigger chunk of damage, you may be driving a few nails at the same time. Example: Dig Through Time basically should seal the deal for you assuming your don't die flipping it and can cast it. It should find you the best two cards to fight your opponent. This is bigger impact than hitting a cantrip that might find you something useful or a conditional counter spell or discard spell. These are my thoughts on the issue. Thanks for reading!

[btm10]

I find this curious. In the last month or so, every time I resolve a Bob (I am only running one at the moment), I ran away with the game. I am not running the DTTs and Angler though.

I only drew Bob twice, but I cast several Digs and they were equally meh. I think part of that was that the average power of the cards in my list above is much lower than the average power of the typical Hymn/Liliana list that I'm used to, and another part is that the matchups where I was generating CA were the matches where it was just win-more instead of what the games where about in theory; basically, the game I won against Grixis was about me killing Pyromancer quickly and countering Dig, while the games I lost were about me mulling to three and the combination of Tasigur being hard to remove without Liliana and me not dealing with Young Pyromancer quickly enough. I might give Dispel a shot over a Pierce, but that's the biggest change I think I'll make before playing the deck again.

[Sturtzilla]

I might give Dispel a shot over a Pierce, but that's the biggest change I think I'll make before playing the deck again.

I find this very interesting. For awhile Delver variants were running an Envelop or two in the board to deal with the Terminus and Entreat the Angels. May not be wrong... it gives you a really solid answer in counter wars, counters basically all non-Abrupt Decay removal, has plenty of targets in most combo match ups, and hits Dig Through Time. Sounds like it could be worth a shot as a 1 or 2-of.

[Esper3k]

I've always been a huge fan of Envelop. It's also amazing against most of the combo decks out there as well as the above applications vs Miracles since unlike RUG, we don't tend to abuse Stifle as well.

[KobeBryan]

How are you guys boarding for these two decks in the meta

DNT and Elves

These two decks are by far the hardest tier decks to fight. I know someone here said use Miracles to deal with elves, then you fight the miracles matchup.

Add:

What i'm trying to say is even with Golgari charm boarded in, its not going to make this matchup in our favor. Do we just forget about the sideboard slots and go for a better matchup against miracles/jund/rug/omni?

[btm10]

What i'm trying to say is even with Golgari charm boarded in, its not going to make this matchup in our favor. Do we just forget about the sideboard slots and go for a better matchup against miracles/jund/rug/omni?

Between Charm and Disfigure, those matchups aren't all that bad postboard. Elves is worse, but that's mostly because you have to leave Force in to stop NO and GSZ, whereas you just get to board out all of your counters against D&T and add good cards. If you're having that much trouble, Sturtzilla is right in that Engineered Plague completely shuts down Elves and almost completely stops D&T. Liliana is also one of your best answers to D&T despite being pretty weak against Elves.

EDIT: In reference to my list on the previous page, the average CMC is 2.1. This is what I get for trying to do this with pen and paper and without looking at the deck while eating breakfast.

[Sturtzilla]

How are you guys boarding for these two decks in the meta. DNT and Elves. These two decks are by far the hardest tier decks to fight. I know someone here said use Miracles to deal with elves, then you fight the miracles matchup.

Add: What i'm trying to say is even with Golgari charm boarded in, its not going to make this matchup in our favor. Do we just forget about the sideboard slots and go for a better matchup against miracles/jund/rug/omni?

If you check out my current list here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)&p=881989&viewfull=1#post881989, I would board the following way for these match ups.

In the Death and Taxes match up, I board more or less the following way:
On the Play:
-4 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
-1 or 2 Daze
-1 or 3 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Disfigure
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Murderous Cut
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Null Rod
+1 Krosan Grip
+0 or 1 Thoughtseize

Here I am maximizing my ability to kill all of their creatures on-site. If I had a Dread of Night or Engineered Plague in my board right now, I would be probably cutting a Hymn to Tourach. I think Hymn is okay G1 but loses a lot of value in G2 and G3, as you have to concern yourself with Wilt-Leaf Liege. The same can be said about Liliana, but at least she has the -2, edict mode and you can wait until they are Hellbent or you have seen their hand to start +1-ing. On the play, I like having some number of Daze probably 2-3 to help keep them honest. You can run out your Delver or DRS then counter their turn one STP or Vial. This puts us in a pretty strong spot. The Echoing Truth and Lili fight Mirran Crusader, which is just a straight beating if he gets online. The Null Rod, Echoing Truth, Krosan Grip, and Thoughtseize can be used to fight equipment both proactively and reactively. Null Rod also serves double duty by shutting down their Vials.

On the Draw:
-1 or 2 FoW
-2 Spell Pierce
-4 Daze
-1 or 3 Hymn to Tourach
+2 Disfigure
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Murderous Cut
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Null Rod
+1 Krosan Grip
+0 or 1 Thoughtseize

Basically the same as above except when playing from behind, you may need FoW to help equalize tempo. Daze also loses a lot of value on the Draw.

In the Elves match up, I board more or less the following way:

On the Play/Draw:
-4 Daze
-1 Hymn to Tourach
-0 or 1 Liliana
+2 Disfigure
+2 Golgari Charm
+0 or 1 Thoughtseize

Here I try to increase my removal density while not compromising ability to cast counter spells. You could add the Thoughtseize and/or the Murderous Cut, but I find that with two sweepers, and 7-9 pieces of targeted removal, plus FoW and Spell Pierce to stop their haymakers, it is pretty hard for them. Engineered Plague is pretty awesome here. If you can turn 1 fetch Deathrite, into turn 2 Plague, they are going to have a hard time winning. There is an interesting dance you can play here though, you can allow them a turn or two to develop a board so that your Plague gets more value. However, this is dangerous due to how explosive the deck can be. This can be easier if you have the right combination of counter magic and removal to keep them off balance. Also they can pack Abrupt Decay, which can shut this plan down.



Between Charm and Disfigure, those matchups aren't all that bad postboard. Elves is worse, but that's mostly because you have to leave Force in to stop NO and GSZ, whereas you just get to board out all of your counters against D&T and add good cards. If you're having that much trouble, Sturtzilla is right in that Engineered Plague completely shuts down Elves and almost completely stops D&T. Liliana is also one of your best answers to D&T despite being pretty weak against Elves.

I mostly agree. I would urge caution with Liliana of the Veil in the DnT match up. The +1 in game 1 is usually pretty safe. But in post board games you can be setting your self up to get Leiged. I often see players in the match up always tick up. Liliana has a fourth mode that players often forget about. The "0: Do nothing" mode, is often better than giving your opponent a free creature. If you know the contents of their hand or they are Hellbent, then +1-ing is safe, but blind +1-ing can be risky.

[Quasim0ff]

I might give Dispel a shot over a Pierce, but that's the biggest change I think I'll make before playing the deck again.

Isn't flusterstorm strictly better?

[Esper3k]

Isn't flusterstorm strictly better?

Not necessarily. Like Spell Pierce, if they have the mana to pay it, Flusterstorm is worse than Dispel.

[btm10]

Not necessarily. Like Spell Pierce, if they have the mana to pay it, Flusterstorm is worse than Dispel.

This is mostly it. The main reason I've been playing other decks recently is that Dig Through Time really messes up BUG Delver's game plan of setting up and then winning a topdeck war, and Pierce is pretty terrible at stopping a midgame Dig. Increasingly, I'm more concerned with stopping Instants in general - Swords, Bolts, Digs, opposing counters - than anything else, so Dispel is whatbI want to try out.

I don't really agree with Philipp Schönegger's assessment of the metagame (based on his Eternal Central article yesterday), but I do think that BUG Delver isn't nearly as well positioned as it was last summer when it was pretty clearly the top of the pile. As a result I think that we should definitely be brewing hard to come up with a better BUG deck than what's currently 'stock'.

[Quasim0ff]

Not necessarily. Like Spell Pierce, if they have the mana to pay it, Flusterstorm is worse than Dispel.
Considerng Dispel doesn't stop Terminus, Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels... That's a pretty large portion of relevant spells.

*Dispel is also shit versus storm. Flusterstorm is not (duh)

[btm10]

Considerng Dispel doesn't stop Terminus, Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels... That's a pretty large portion of relevant spells.

Pierce and Flusterstorm usually don't stop Entreat or Terminus either, and fighting over Terminus is wrong just as often as it's right anyway. Pierce is fine against Show and Tell, but discard is better, and Dispel unconditionally stops Cunning Wish, Eladamri's Call, Firemind's Foresight, and Dig Through Time, and Brainstom.

EDIT: Storm and Omni are among BUG Delver's best matchups. I'd give up 5% against each of them to improve my Miracles and and Grixis matchups by 3% each.

[KobeBryan]

Considerng Dispel doesn't stop Terminus, Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels... That's a pretty large portion of relevant spells.

*Dispel is also shit versus storm. Flusterstorm is not (duh)

You really shouldn't waste a counter on terminus.

Spell pierce as well as daze is lackluster in the miracles matchup

[Esper3k]

Considerng Dispel doesn't stop Terminus, Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels... That's a pretty large portion of relevant spells.

*Dispel is also shit versus storm. Flusterstorm is not (duh)

Oh I'm not arguing that Dispel is better than Flusterstorm, just that there do exist some relevant situations where it is better.

I prefer Envelop over either, myself.

[btm10]

Oh I'm not arguing that Dispel is better than Flusterstorm, just that there do exist some relevant situations where it is better.

I prefer Envelop over either, myself.

I think that's fine. I'd rather run Dimir Cham than Envelop, but it could be a playstyle/preference thing.

[Asthereal]

I think that's fine. I'd rather run Dimir Cham than Envelop, but it could be a playstyle/preference thing.
I'm with Esper here.

a. UB for Counter target Sorcery is rather expensive.
b. The third ability is card disadvantage, and a top deck time walk seems very situational.
c. The creature removal option does not kill: Goyf, flipped Delver, Batterskull token, Clique, ...
To kill a guy I don't really care much about, I'd rather not pay UB.

This all considered, Dimir Charm just doesn't cut it, even though it's flexible.

[Esper3k]

I do love me some Dimir Charm, but I think in a Delver list, we care so much about keeping our overall CMCs low, Dimir Charm is just a little too expensive for my taste.

[kryllex]

I see alot of people playing 3-4 Hymns AND Spell Pierce(s) in the Maindeck. Am I the only one thinking, this is kinda bad? I rather go fulll tapout strategy alá Hymn and Lilly, or the Counterbackup plan by defending my dudes and always letting 1 Land untapped for Pierce..

Regarding the Envelop, Pierce and Flusterstorm Sideboard slots - I am using 2x Pierce and 1x Envelop and its amazing. I think Pierce is alot better in this deck than Flusterstorm, because we are already super heavy on discard spells. Also, Pierce counters a Problematic threat like a Jace or some Equipments, which Flusterstorm doesnt. Envelop is awesome versus Elves, Miracles and even Combo.

Just my two cents :)

[Sturtzilla]

I'm with Esper here.

a. UB for Counter target Sorcery is rather expensive.
b. The third ability is card disadvantage, and a top deck time walk seems very situational.
c. The creature removal option does not kill: Goyf, flipped Delver, Batterskull token, Clique, ...
To kill a guy I don't really care much about, I'd rather not pay UB.

This all considered, Dimir Charm just doesn't cut it, even though it's flexible.

This is typically the problem with every "Charm" printed recently. You get three 1-mana effects for 2 mana. Dimir Charm is going to be a bit expensive regardless of what mode you decide. The power is in the flexibility.

A. Counter target sorcery spell. For :u::b: that is a bit steep, you could have maindecked Envelop, but this is the price you pay for flexibiility.

B. Destroy target creature with power 2 or less. This is a reasonable cost. Typically decks in Legacy want to spend 1 or 2 mana to remove a guy. Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and Disfigure can all be situationally better and have the added bonus of costing one less mana. This modes still kills unflipped Delver, Bob, Mother of Runes, Stoneforge Mystic, just about every elf, and a load of other creatures.

C. Look at the top three cards of target player's library, then put one back and the other two into that player's graveyard. This mode may be card disadvantage but allows for us to dig for a specific answer and potentially clear the top of our library. It does this while fueling Delve spells. If can also be used to mess up opponent's Brainstorms or an awaiting Terminus or Entreat the Angels. So this last mode is basically like two modes rolled into one. It can help you find a spell or work to stop an opponent from finding one.

It can be a little clunky but the card is pretty solid. If you think you are going to face a lot of Miracles and Elves, it is a great choice.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Envelop is strictly better than mode 1. Creature removal is not an issue, and a bad Smother isn't where I want to be In a format that isn't Modern. 3rd mode is janky in this format where we have 4 other cantrips that are strictly better and cheaper. Utility just isn't what the deck is asking for currently. I'd even argue that Countersquall is a better choice here than Charm.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Asthereal]

Envelop is strictly better than mode 1. Creature removal is not an issue, and a bad Smother isn't where I want to be In a format that isn't Modern. 3rd mode is janky in this format where we have 4 other cantrips that are strictly better and cheaper. Utility just isn't what the deck is asking for currently. I'd even argue that Countersquall is a better choice here than Charm.
This. Also, I play the tapout version again, in which keeping UB open is a challenge, to say the least.




I see alot of people playing 3-4 Hymns AND Spell Pierce(s) in the Maindeck. Am I the only one thinking, this is kinda bad? I rather go fulll tapout strategy alá Hymn and Lilly, or the Counterbackup plan by defending my dudes and always letting 1 Land untapped for Pierce..

Regarding the Envelop, Pierce and Flusterstorm Sideboard slots - I am using 2x Pierce and 1x Envelop and its amazing. I think Pierce is alot better in this deck than Flusterstorm, because we are already super heavy on discard spells. Also, Pierce counters a Problematic threat like a Jace or some Equipments, which Flusterstorm doesnt. Envelop is awesome versus Elves, Miracles and even Combo.

Just my two cents :)
This is easily solved by playing 1-2 Thoughtseize instead of Spell Pierce. That's what I do now. No test or tournament results yet though.

[Sturtzilla]

Envelop is strictly better than mode 1.

I seem to remember writing this in my last post.



Creature removal is not an issue, and a bad Smother isn't where I want to be In a format that isn't Modern.

Sure it may be a bad Smother but it still kills ~50-75% of the creatures played in the format. This coupled with the rest of our removal package and the ability to counter some spells is very strong.



3rd mode is janky in this format where we have 4 other cantrips that are strictly better and cheaper. Utility just isn't what the deck is asking for currently.

I will admit that the third mode is a little polarized. It is either awesome when it mills a Terminus off the top of your opponent's deck so that you can attack for lethal or prevents them from winning in a similar fashion with Entreat the Angels (in these cases, maybe you could have just countered the spell, maybe not); however, when you cycle it, it feels pretty bad. Maybe the third mode in the above cases is win-more... I am not sure. I have been running it as a 1-of and the flexibility to kill a dude or counter a spell always comes up.



I'd even argue that Countersquall is a better choice here than Charm. From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

This is actually pretty interesting. I like this better than Envelop and Dispel. Might be worth trying out. Good thinking!

[kryllex]

This is easily solved by playing 1-2 Thoughtseize instead of Spell Pierce. That's what I do now. No test or tournament results yet though.

Yeah, I am playing 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize and 2 Lilliys - and its absolutely amazing!

[KobeBryan]

I seem to remember writing this in my last post.




Sure it may be a bad Smother but it still kills ~50-75% of the creatures played in the format. This coupled with the rest of our removal package and the ability to counter some spells is very strong.




I will admit that the third mode is a little polarized. It is either awesome when it mills a Terminus off the top of your opponent's deck so that you can attack for lethal or prevents them from winning in a similar fashion with Entreat the Angels (in these cases, maybe you could have just countered the spell, maybe not); however, when you cycle it, it feels pretty bad. Maybe the third mode in the above cases is win-more... I am not sure. I have been running it as a 1-of and the flexibility to kill a dude or counter a spell always comes up.




This is actually pretty interesting. I like this better than Envelop and Dispel. Might be worth trying out. Good thinking!

I'm not sure if this deck can afford to play Countersquall. You don't keep the mana up for that long

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I wasn't suggesting that we play Countersquall, I simply said it's probably better than Charm. We for sure have other things to do that cost two.

What do you guys board in/out against Miracles. Also, anyone else playing a Stifle build Or am I alone?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Sturtzilla]

What do you guys board in/out against Miracles?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)&p=881989&viewfull=1#post881989

From my most recent list I would board in the following manner versus Miracles:
On the Play
-3 Daze
-4 Wasteland
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique

On the Draw
-4 Daze
-3 Wasteland
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Thoughtseize
+1 Null Rod
+1 Echoing Truth
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Vendilion Clique

I am trying to cut the lower impact cards and bring in proactive answers to their threats. Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, and Echoing Truth help us fight various cards on the stack, in hand or once in play. I like being able to pick Jaces from their hand with Thoughtseize and the other maindeck discard. Flusterstorm fights the Terminuses, Entreats, and any counter wars. Echoing Truth allows us a cheap way to get out from under an Entreat, while also serving double duty against troublesome permanents such as RiP, Counterbalance, and Jace. Krosan Grip is an extra way to deal with Counterbalance and other enchantments that they may bring in such as Humility, Blood Moon, and/or RiP. Null Rod proactively shuts down Top and any equipment they may bring in as some builds use SFM and/or Batterskull as an alternate win condition. Sylvan Library/cards] is just a great way to gain some card advantage. They typically don't pressure your life total very drastically so you can spend some life drawing cards. Also, anytime your creatures get StPed, you are gaining life to draw another card. Finally Clique is a good way to pressure Jace, while also serving the purpose of being able to cycle Miracles out of your opponent's hand. This buys you combats or draw steps. My current list, containing Hymns and Lili, does a good job of keeping them off of resources and dependent on Top. If you can cut off Top by countering or Null Rod, you are in pretty good shape. People bemoan this match up, but Miracles players don't really have all that many win cons. If you keep Jace and Entreat from resolving you are doing fine.

I don't really like [cards]Daze or Wasteland in this match up. Our opponents can normally play around Daze and fetch around Wasteland. If you are playing Stifle, Wasteland gains some value as their naturally drawn lands may be must more important. The cards each become more powerful by playing the others; however, this in an actual game requires you to get them with a Stifle.

There are some high impact cards like Zur's Weirding, Garruk Relentless, and to a lesser extent Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver that are just very hard for Miracles to beat. Zur's Weirding basically locks them out of the game. Garruk is basically a must answer permanent as it generates threats every turn that pressure planeswalkers and life totals. Admittedly, I have not run the Garruk tech yet, but saw it work fantastically in an event that I was judging. Ashiok is the weakest of these but exiling three resources each turn, with the potential to snag a Snapcaster or Clique is fine. With their low threat density and decent creatures it can be a tough permanent for them to deal with. It attacks on a different axis than the rest of our deck, which can be good or bad. It is also pretty decent in the mirror match, assuming that you resolve it.

[KobeBryan]

This is how i would board with your list

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut

Out 4 daze, 1 tasigur, 1 wasteland, 1 goyf. In 1 surgical, 1 flusterstorm, 1 null rod, 1 echoing truth, 1 sylvan library, 1 krosan grip, 1 vendilion clique.

[Sturtzilla]

This is how i would board with your list

Out 4 daze, 1 tasigur, 1 wasteland, 1 goyf. In 1 surgical, 1 flusterstorm, 1 null rod, 1 echoing truth, 1 sylvan library, 1 krosan grip, 1 vendilion clique.

Tasigur, the Golden Fang with some protection not only ends games but is also a solid way to generate some card advantage. I have liked having him in the deck for this match up. Tarmogoyf ends games. If my opponent shows me that they are on Rest in Peace in game two, then I would board one-two out for game three. Tasigur is also a possibility here. Surgical Extraction can be a good way to fight Snapcaster Mage and to narrow down countered win cons. That is a fair point.

[KobeBryan]

Tasigur, the Golden Fang with some protection not only ends games but is also a solid way to generate some card advantage. I have liked having him in the deck for this match up. Tarmogoyf ends games. If my opponent shows me that they are on Rest in Peace in game two, then I would board one-two out for game three. Tasigur is also a possibility here. Surgical Extraction can be a good way to fight Snapcaster Mage and to narrow down countered win cons. That is a fair point.

If you happen to counter a senseis and then surgical, it can be hugely in your favor. Getting rid of terminus or plows can also speed up the clock.

Narrow, but you have discard just for this purpose.

You really shouldn't be wasting counters or protection to protect a Tasigur in this matchup.

[Sturtzilla]

If you happen to counter a senseis and then surgical, it can be hugely in your favor. Getting rid of terminus or plows can also speed up the clock. Narrow, but you have discard just for this purpose.

You are correct that extracting Tops is a huge gain. However a lot of things have to go right for you/us in this scenario. They have to have the top (which they usually do), you have to have the counterspell (probably not too hard to do) and the extraction (1 in 60). Your opponent has to not have a counterspell (not impossible but rare). I am not saying that it is impossible. If this is your game plan post board, it will probably happen a fair number of times, but you do have to draw that extraction. It is just really hard for me to justify this as the go-to plan when there is only one extraction. Hitting a countered win con or a removal spell are also fine.



You really shouldn't be wasting counters or protection to protect a Tasigur in this matchup.

Threats like Tasigur and Bob are great as they give us more cards. This better equips us to continue the fight as the games can go long. After delving away garbage when you cast him, he is going to get you back solid cards like cantrips, which allow us to find what we need in any given spot, and in some cases creatures. I think a lot of this decision comes down to the particular build that you are facing. Is it the more Joe Losset style build or the Phillip Scoenegger build? I guess it could be someone's random pet brew as well. You have to play against what they show you. I would not board out Tasigur unless I see a RiP in game two. He is a decent clock and can net cards. Both are great things in this matchup.

[Thedougler]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to this deck and legacy in general. I am slowly building the pieces for this deck but I have a question for you guys.

I have seen some lists that are more blue heavy that run Stifle and True-Name Nemesis (sometimes even Jace in the sideboard), and additionally, I have seen lists that are more black heavy running Hymn to Tourach and Liliana.

What are your thoughts on the pros and cons of these different directions. Are both options viable? Or is one much stronger than the other?

If it makes a difference, my current meta is heavy on death & taxes and Maverick type decks, as well as "budget" combo decks like manaless dredge and omnishow. Which do you think would work out better in a meta like that?

Here is my tentative list that I am working on, is this a good direction to take the deck? I haven't decided on a full sideboard yet, so suggestions there would be helpful as well. I greatly appreciate any advice you guys have to give :)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang (or Gurmag Angler to avoid Karakas?)
1 True-name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtsieze
3 Daze
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Tentative Sideboard:

1 Force of Will
2 Duress
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Murderous Cut
Further Suggestions?

[H]

I personally feel that 16 creatures is far too many. Our Delvers have the worst flip rate of any real Delver decks, so I feel like 14 is that max for me (I usually play 13). I'd cut the Tasigur and probably a Confidant from you above list myself.

I'd probably add back a Daze and a Force. This opens up your sideboard. If you see so much D&T and Maverick, I would consider Disfigure, Golgari Charms and Dread of Night. If you see a really great deal of Maverick and other Green (non-Elves) I'd consider Submerge. Life from the Loam is a good choice to help you play around mana denial from both those kinds of decks.

Since you see Dredge I would add a Surgical in place of one of the Cages, since you can board in Surgical versus Omni, even if it isn't great.

You should probably also have at least one Sylvan Library in the 75. I play mine main, since I often see Miracles, but side is also fine. I find it lets you play a few less threats, while not being easily removed.

[jim111589]

Hey all. I just started playing this deck coming from jund and elves and I love it. I am still a bit iffy on boarding. Here is my list, sorry it's on my phone so it's going to be abreviated.

4 verdant
4 polluted
4 wasteland
3 Usea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 misty
1 swamp (will be Used when I can get another)

4 goyf
4 delver
4 drs
1 tombstalker

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 Fow
4 decay
4 daze
3 hymn
1 thought seize
1 spell pierce

2 lili


Board
2 disfigured
2 needle
1 clique
1 library
1 flusterstorm
1 surgical
1 envelope
1 zur's weirding
1 golgari charm
1 deluge
1 thoughtseize
1 graf diggers cage
1 divert




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[KobeBryan]

Hey all. I just started playing this deck coming from jund and elves and I love it. I am still a bit iffy on boarding. Here is my list, sorry it's on my phone so it's going to be abreviated.

4 verdant
4 polluted
4 wasteland
3 Usea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 misty
1 swamp (will be Used when I can get another)

4 goyf
4 delver
4 drs
1 tombstalker

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 Fow
4 decay
4 daze
3 hymn
1 thought seize
1 spell pierce

2 lili


Board
2 disfigured
2 needle
1 clique
1 library
1 flusterstorm
1 surgical
1 envelope
1 zur's weirding
1 golgari charm
1 deluge
1 thoughtseize
1 graf diggers cage
1 divert




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Board
2 disfigured
2 needle (1 needle, 1 null rod)
1 clique
1 library
1 flusterstorm (i never found this too useful)
1 surgical
1 envelope
1 zur's weirding (very narrow, only really good for a miracles matchup. I am playing garruk now in this slot since i can use it against Jund, Miracles, maverick, and the sorts. I know its not a blow out on the field, but our deck should suffice to pull out a win)
1 golgari charm
1 deluge
1 thoughtseize
1 graf diggers cage
1 divert (should really be used in a stifle build only, i would consider envelop or dispel)

of your board, i'd change it as follows

[jim111589]

Board
2 disfigured
2 needle (1 needle, 1 null rod)
1 clique
1 library
1 flusterstorm (i never found this too useful)
1 surgical
1 envelope
1 zur's weirding (very narrow, only really good for a miracles matchup. I am playing garruk now in this slot since i can use it against Jund, Miracles, maverick, and the sorts. I know its not a blow out on the field, but our deck should suffice to pull out a win)
1 golgari charm
1 deluge
1 thoughtseize
1 graf diggers cage
1 divert (should really be used in a stifle build only, i would consider envelop or dispel)

of your board, i'd change it as follows
The 2 needles was a last minute choice and it will probably be the split in the next tournament. My meta is somewhat miricles heavy I usualy play 1-2 miricles decks in a 5 round event so I feel I should leave it in. As for the divert in the flusterstorm, I'm open to sugestions. And what is the boarding plan for jund, DnT and more common decks?

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Also, my meta is 3-4 dnt, 5-6 miricles, 4-5 jund and merfolk, 3 omni then a handful of t2 stuff

[Whitefaces]

I can't remember my exact SB and plan vs Miracles off the top of my head but I have a Winter Orb which is really effective. Has some nice splash damage vs Lands too, which feels almost unwinnable without it.

[H]

I honestly feel that the Swamp is a major hindrance. I personally would rather play 10 Fetches than any basic, because no matter which you pick, it's awful. Our manabase is already bad, a Basic makes it much worse. We already have a hard enough time because of Bayou (and Bayou is absolutely neccessary in the Hymn build), due to it making it much harder to keep a 1 (Bayou) Land, multiple cantrip hand. Any basic exacerbates this problem. Swamp is too awkward with Daze and Cantrips. Island is not congruent with Hymn and Deathrite. I'm not even going to pretend that a Forest is an option. While another fetch is bad, I feel it's not as bad as a Basic.

I think you board is constructed fine, although I would not play Weirding (4 CMC is too high to be impactful I feel). I would definitely split 1 Needle and 1 Null Rod (both are great versus Miracles, but Null Rod can randomly be OK versus Storm, Belcher, Affinity, Equipment decks). I have no real experience playing Divert though, but I would consider making it a Life from the Loam, cosidering you play against Jund and D&T it seems.

Versus Jund, you are looking to make your deck look more like theirs. The matchup though is decidedly in their favor though. I board out countermagic, board in removal and all the removal you have (and the Clique). The problem here is that both your discard and your counters are bad, but it's a toss up which are worse. If you are going to win, it will be through the fact that you have cantrips, so your draw will hopefully be more smooth than theirs, you manage to win the Deathrite war, or you manage to keep your fliers on the table, or some combination. I would probably bring in Library here and maybe take out a Lili (they are a better Lili deck than us), but probably not. If they play Punishing Fire, you have to bring in Surgical, I feel.

Versus D&T, you would board out countermagic too, most probably, then bring in all the same cards you did versus Jund (not Surgical though, Library is a toss up). You are probably going to have to win in the same way too, so protect your fliers, the ground will get clogged fast.

Sorry, I'm at work, so those were just some brief thoughts.

EDIT:

I can't remember my exact SB and plan vs Miracles off the top of my head but I have a Winter Orb which is really effective. Has some nice splash damage vs Lands too, which feels almost unwinnable without it.

Yeah, I play it too. In fact, apparently Joe Lossett was complaining on his stream about me playing it versus him (or so someone told me) :laugh:

I also like it versus 12 Post, or whatever people call that deck now-a-days.

[KobeBryan]

The 2 needles was a last minute choice and it will probably be the split in the next tournament. My meta is somewhat miricles heavy I usualy play 1-2 miricles decks in a 5 round event so I feel I should leave it in. As for the divert in the flusterstorm, I'm open to sugestions. And what is the boarding plan for jund, DnT and more common decks?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



Also, my meta is 3-4 dnt, 5-6 miricles, 4-5 jund and merfolk, 3 omni then a handful of t2 stuff

in THAT meta, you definitely do not need flusterstorm. Play 2 envelops. This will help your Miracles matchup tremendously. Garruk has also helped me out fairly well.

the DNT, you need 2 golgari charm, and 1 dread of night. This will handle them wholeheartedly.

Jund - you need to play a big fatty like gurmag or tombstalker. They have no answer to that. unless they play maelstrom pulse (which is a 1 of)

[jim111589]

Thanks for all the quick responses. So from the looks of it il take out the flusterstorm and divert for golgari charm and either another envelop or a dread of night

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[Whitefaces]

EDIT:

Yeah, I play it too. In fact, apparently Joe Lossett was complaining on his stream about me playing it versus him (or so someone told me) :laugh:

I also like it versus 12 Post, or whatever people call that deck now-a-days.

Haha, nice! I watched that stream actually, good work. It seems to be quite underplayed for how big an effect it can have in bad matchups. I've only faced 12-post once with TA and managed to win without the Orb by finding enough wastelands with early pressure, but I can see it being really effective. Especially as posts CIPT.


Jund - you need to play a big fatty like gurmag or tombstalker. They have no answer to that. unless they play maelstrom pulse (which is a 1 of)

Except for that 4-of, best card in the deck, Liliana. I used to play Jund religiously and was always happy to face TA. The only times I lost were due to T1 Delver > Daze > Waste + Delver/Pierce etc and me having an awkward draw. It's rough.

You need to be able to combat Punishing Fire somehow, otherwise you'll get streamrolled by it. Surgical is probably the most commonly played answer to it.

[KobeBryan]

Haha, nice! I watched that stream actually, good work. It seems to be quite underplayed for how big an effect it can have in bad matchups. I've only faced 12-post once with TA and managed to win without the Orb by finding enough wastelands with early pressure, but I can see it being really effective. Especially as posts CIPT.



Except for that 4-of, best card in the deck, Liliana. I used to play Jund religiously and was always happy to face TA. The only times I lost were due to T1 Delver > Daze > Waste + Delver/Pierce etc and me having an awkward draw. It's rough.

You need to be able to combat Punishing Fire somehow, otherwise you'll get streamrolled by it. Surgical is probably the most commonly played answer to it.

you can remedy that by playing a garruk or winter orb. Winter orb can double up on miracles as well.

[KobeBryan]

Haha, nice! I watched that stream actually, good work. It seems to be quite underplayed for how big an effect it can have in bad matchups. I've only faced 12-post once with TA and managed to win without the Orb by finding enough wastelands with early pressure, but I can see it being really effective. Especially as posts CIPT.



Except for that 4-of, best card in the deck, Liliana. I used to play Jund religiously and was always happy to face TA. The only times I lost were due to T1 Delver > Daze > Waste + Delver/Pierce etc and me having an awkward draw. It's rough.

You need to be able to combat Punishing Fire somehow, otherwise you'll get streamrolled by it. Surgical is probably the most commonly played answer to it.

Pithing Needle FTW!!!!!

[Adan]

Pithing Needle FTW!!!!!

I am not sure whether you already heard of it, but there's this card Jund plays, it's called "Abrupt Decay".

[KobeBryan]

I am not sure whether you already heard of it, but there's this card Jund plays, it's called "Abrupt Decay".

there's a card to answer every card....this is similar to the "it does to removal argument"

if you play it right, they would be using quite a bit of resources (they have no library manipulation) to get the 4 decays.

[Adan]

there's a card to answer every card....this is similar to the "it does to removal argument"

if you play it right, they would be using quite a bit of resources (they have no library manipulation) to get the 4 decays.

Dark Confidant??? Sylvan Library??? Oh, and Kolaghan's Command will see play as well, I'm pretty sure about that. So why should Pithing Needle be any good? It's a poor answer. Spell Pierce is better, it's also one of the best cards to have against Jund. Other than that, your own Abrupt Decays are still the best out. Even Hero's Downfall would be a better card than Needle for that matchup.

[KobeBryan]

Dark Confidant??? Sylvan Library??? Oh, and Kolaghan's Command will see play as well, I'm pretty sure about that. So why should Pithing Needle be any good? It's a poor answer. Spell Pierce is better, it's also one of the best cards to have against Jund. Other than that, your own Abrupt Decays are still the best out. Even Hero's Downfall would be a better card than Needle for that matchup.

alright. whatever

[btm10]

Yeah, I play it too. In fact, apparently Joe Lossett was complaining on his stream about me playing it versus him (or so someone told me) :laugh:

I also like it versus 12 Post, or whatever people call that deck now-a-days.

Yep. Winter Orb is great right now. It's actually pretty good against Grixis in addition to everything else - they need to tap out a lot to Dig and make tokens, letting us maximize Daze, leverage Deathrite, and take advantage of the fact that our cards are better than theirs when they don't get to reload as often.

Also, when did you play Lossett? I'd like to see the video.

[H]

Also, when did you play Lossett? I'd like to see the video.

I played him at the last SCG Dallas PIQ. We ended up drawing, I won a grinding game 1, he won a grinding game 2 as we went to extra turns. I ended up 2-0-1 versus Miracles that day, finishing 5-2-1 with losses to UR Delver and a hard luck loss to RUG.

[btm10]

I played him at the last SCG Dallas PIQ. We ended up drawing, I won a grinding game 1, he won a grinding game 2 as we went to extra turns. I ended up 2-0-1 versus Miracles that day, finishing 5-2-1 with losses to UR Delver and a hard luck loss to RUG.

Sorry - I thought you meant it was on MTGO. Rough beats with RUG though.

[H]

Sorry - I thought you meant it was on MTGO. Rough beats with RUG though.

Unfortunately all I own is paper (or maybe fortunately? haha) so no videos exist of me playing. My games versus Miracles are very grinding, as I almost never play more than one creature at a time. This makes every game take forever. My plan is also to lock down Top, one way or another though. Their deck is not great when they don't have access to Top.

I've found though that recently, while I have been successful versus Miracles, my record versus RUG has been bad. In that match, I won a long game one, then lost a quick game two and three, each time to a bevvy of Stifles, Wastlands, Dazes, and quick flipped Delvers.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

I split/won Legacy at my LGS last night. You can see my previous list here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-DTB-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)&p=881989&viewfull=1#post881989 I have made one change from that list, and it is -1 Hymn to Tourach and +1 Thoughtseize. My though process being that Hymn is very often clunky and hard to sequence effectively and that 'Seize gives you a bit more flexibility in the early turns and the information.

Round 1 - Omnishow - [2-0]

A combination of Delver, discard, and counter magic wins me game one. I board -2 Abrupt Decay, -3 Daze, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Vendilion Clique. I should have boarded another Decay out for the Krosan Grip. Thought process being, I don't want to be cold to something stupid like Blood Moon or Ensnaring Bridge. I think with a Decay, a Lili, and a Grip you should be good for the 2-3 copies of these items that they could bring in. Game two was very sketchy. I have a hand full of counter magic that is quickly invalidated by a Boseiju, Who Shelters All. Luckily, I Brainstorm into some discard which buys me time. On my opponent's turn before my lethal attack, he casts and uncounterable Show and Tell. He puts Omni into play and I put a Deathrite into play. He has two open mana and my hand/board are three untapped lands, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Daze, Force of Will, Brainstorm, and Echoing Truth. He casts a Brainstorm for free, which I Flusterstorm. He pays for two tapping out and casts a Spell Pierce to counter the last copy. I then Echoing Truth the Omni with both Daze and FoW back up. He concedes. The match up felt fine you just have to keep your interaction up.


Round 2 - Bant Infect - [2-0]

I have Delver into removal spells game one. Sideboard -1 Thoughtseize, -2 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Dimir Charm, -3 Daze; +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Murderous Cut. There might be some logic to leaving in a second Daze. Keeping Infect creatures off the table is important and Daze is a great way to do while still being proactive. I am interested in your guys' thoughts here. How would you board? Game two sees two of my Delvers getting StPed while he gets me to 6 poison before I take him off of creatures. I finish him off with a pair of Goyfs in play and a pair of FoW in hand.


Round 3 - ID - [0-0-3]

I end up first which was good for a bunch of store credit. Deck feels great. I may give the Dark Confidant heavy version a try here in the next few weeks. I cast Tasigur once and it would have been fine/better as a Bob or a Goyf. The sideboard always leaves me wondering what I could be doing differently. There were a few (2-I think) Miracles decks in the room; however, I didn't get paired against them. I am wondering about Garruk Relentless for the Miracles and slow/fair match ups. I am very back and forth on the three grave hate cards. Weeks where I play Dredge, Oops All Spells, or Reanimator I am very glad that I have them. Yet there was one graveyard (Oops All Spells) deck in the room this week, so it might be fine to shave one slot to test another card. Overall I am very happy with the deck... it always comes down to tuning the last 2-4 slots in the maindeck and a few slots in the sideboard. Anyway, thanks for reading and let me know what you think about my boarding for the matches listed.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

What is our best approach to beating Goblins. Mono red, plays Blood Moon main. Seems bad for us.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[btm10]

What is our best approach to beating Goblins. Mono red, plays Blood Moon main. Seems bad for us.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Win rounds 1, 2, and 3. I don't think we're likely to beat a tribal swarm deck with MD Blood Moon without spending board slots we need for more common opponents. If it's an LGS thing, then either maindeck a Golgari Charm since it kills most Goblins and Moon or maybe play another deck for a bit.

[KobeBryan]

What is our best approach to beating Goblins. Mono red, plays Blood Moon main. Seems bad for us.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

we lose to pretty much all swarming decks man. thats the way of life.

Elves, goblins, merfolk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well thanks for those inspiring words. I didn't ask what the percentages were, just a strategy to give me the best chance. I get its rough, I would just like my best shot at it. Anyone who has a strategy, I'd love to hear it.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Whitefaces]

Well thanks for those inspiring words. I didn't ask what the percentages were, just a strategy to give me the best chance. I get its rough, I would just like my best shot at it. Anyone who has a strategy, I'd love to hear it.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Get a Delver beating in the air asap and try to control the ground with goyfs, DRSs and cheap removal spells for the haste enablers. That's the gameplan, executing it is pretty tough though.

[pointicus]

Land a tarmogoyf and then don't tap out of BG unless you have a force.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Thanks, is there a sideboard plan, and if you had one slot in your board dedicated to beating swarm decks, goblins for the sake of discussion, what would it be?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Whitefaces]

Thanks, is there a sideboard plan, and if you had one slot in your board dedicated to beating swarm decks, goblins for the sake of discussion, what would it be?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Gotta be E Plague at the moment as it's also fine vs DnT, Elves and Pyromancer decks.

[Manipulato]

Thanks, is there a sideboard plan, and if you had one slot in your board dedicated to beating swarm decks, goblins for the sake of discussion, what would it be?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Board out your whole FoW's & Daze's because of they're 4 Cavern of Souls & 4 Aether Vial, bring in cards like Golgari Charm, Plague, Disfigure, Needle, Murderous Cut etc.
Lili can go too but it depends on the mass of cards you can bring in G2 G3.

Concentrate your removal on Vial, Warchief, Lackey & Blood Moon.

Close the game as early as possible & take they're creatures under fire, because we will loose the long game against Ringleader & Matron.

Ringleader is they're way to victory but you can't counter it because of Cavern/Vial, if you're on the stifle version you have a much easier time winning.

But it's still a very tough spot, especially with MD Blood Moon, dont worry to much about this MU it's very rare nowadays.

Hope I could help you a bit.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Thanks. I ask because I have a tournament Saturday and I am expecting to see it.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[The Duck!!]

1 approach I'm leaning towards on is having a swamp and maybe 1-2 toxic deluges in the side board. Or -1 underground sea and +1 swamp since bug delver is a bit heavy on black. Toxic Deluge clears out swarming tribal decks entirely for an additional cost of 2 life. Also kills magus of the moon from mono red stompy which I feel is also a problem of the deck.


What is our best approach to beating Goblins. Mono red, plays Blood Moon main. Seems bad for us.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Top 4'ed the event. In the 5 rds of swiss, i beat Mud, UW mentor w/ SFM and DTT, merfolk, lost to omni and junkblade, quarters I beat omni, semi's I lost a close match with rug delver.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[wwoning]

Top 4'ed the event. In the 5 rds of swiss, i beat Mud, UW mentor w/ SFM and DTT, merfolk, lost to omni and junkblade, quarters I beat omni, semi's I lost a close match with rug delver.

Congrats on the result! Could you share your list and tell some more about the match vs mentor? It does not seem like a great matchup?

[wcm8]

re: the new mulligan rule

Someone in the Format Discussion thread did the math. For a 20-land deck that wants to hit its second land drop on time, and in the event of mulling down to a 6-hander with 1 land: with the help of the new Scry 1 mulligan effect, the chance of finding the second land by turn 2 raises from 35% to 58%.

Should the new mulligan rule extend to Legacy, I think this will result in possible reconfiguration of many decks' mana base configuration (basically, cutting 1-2 lands to fit in more business spells). TA can already operate somewhat comfortably on 19 lands; the 20th tends to function as added insurance. Just something to consider.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

I have another quick tournament report to give. I have changed gears a bit since my last post and pivoted back to the Stifle configuration. I piloted the deck to a 3-1 finish this week losing a rather odd match to a midrange Cascade deck. Here is the current list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut

Round 1: URGB Cascade - (1-2)
This was the Bloodbraid Elf and Shardless Agent Deck. It had a black splash for both Deathrite and Abrupt Decay. He manages to stabilize in game one by hitting back to back, blind, double cascades. So BBE into Agent into value spell, with no set up. Games two and three we each got stuck on mana and the other player closed a quick game.

Round 2: Dredge - (2-0)
In game one I Force his turn one action spell and then wasteland him off of mana. Game two I have a Cage which keeps him locked down until I have a lethal force.

Round 3: UWR Stoneforge - (2-1)
So we only completed two game and both were very awkward on each side of the table. I was able to hinder his mana development but he was able to kill most of my threats. So the games went long. He was a very nice guy and conceeded when it was clear we wouldn't get though a game three.

Round 4: UWr Miracles - (2-1)
I get locked out by double Counterbalance and a SDT in game 1. I Abrupt Decayed the first CB, but alas, he had a second one. Game two he mulligans, and I get to play a Delver and then Stifle and Wasteland him on turn two. He conceeded here. Game three I managed to attack his mana a bit and apply pressure. He wasn't able to find a Terminus and died.


Overall I liked the list that I played. I ended 3-1, which was good for 4th due to everyone finishing 3-1. I think I only made one real error over the course of the night. I missed out on 2 points of lifeloss from a DRS by targeting my UWR Stoneblade opponent's card rather than my own. He was able to Dig Through Time in response. I was able to counter the DTT, but the 2 points missed here gave him an extra draw step. I feel like I may need to do a bit of testing to find the right card for both midrange and the Miracles match ups. The Miracles match up seems fine but I would really just like a way to fight them on a new axis. I think Garruk Relentless might fit the bill. It is tough for them to Counterbalance and they probably only have one or two ways to answer it. The constant stream of 2/2s or 1/1s pressures their life total or Jace. The constant creatures also tax their removal suite. I have also been thinking about trying Ashiok but it seems weaker as you are working towards milling them out and may get a touch of value from a SCM or VC. Ashiok is cool in that it makes Top a bit less reliable. I just don't think I can warrant a sideboard slot on Zur's Weirding in my local meta. If an open field is likely to contain a ton of Miracles and Omnishow, I might reconsider. As for the "new mulligan rule," we may be able to shave a land to 19 and be a bit more consistent, but we will have to wait and see if it will be implemented on all levels. Anyway those are my thoughts for now, thanks for reading and any comments are welcome and appreciated!

[KobeBryan]

Greetings All!

I have another quick tournament report to give. I have changed gears a bit since my last post and pivoted back to the Stifle configuration. I piloted the deck to a 3-1 finish this week losing a rather odd match to a midrange Cascade deck. Here is the current list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut

Round 1: URGB Cascade - (1-2)
This was the Bloodbraid Elf and Shardless Agent Deck. It had a black splash for both Deathrite and Abrupt Decay. He manages to stabilize in game one by hitting back to back, blind, double cascades. So BBE into Agent into value spell, with no set up. Games two and three we each got stuck on mana and the other player closed a quick game.

Round 2: Dredge - (2-0)
In game one I Force his turn one action spell and then wasteland him off of mana. Game two I have a Cage which keeps him locked down until I have a lethal force.

Round 3: UWR Stoneforge - (2-1)
So we only completed two game and both were very awkward on each side of the table. I was able to hinder his mana development but he was able to kill most of my threats. So the games went long. He was a very nice guy and conceeded when it was clear we wouldn't get though a game three.

Round 4: UWr Miracles - (2-1)
I get locked out by double Counterbalance and a SDT in game 1. I Abrupt Decayed the first CB, but alas, he had a second one. Game two he mulligans, and I get to play a Delver and then Stifle and Wasteland him on turn two. He conceeded here. Game three I managed to attack his mana a bit and apply pressure. He wasn't able to find a Terminus and died.


Overall I liked the list that I played. I ended 3-1, which was good for 4th due to everyone finishing 3-1. I think I only made one real error over the course of the night. I missed out on 2 points of lifeloss from a DRS by targeting my UWR Stoneblade opponent's card rather than my own. He was able to Dig Through Time in response. I was able to counter the DTT, but the 2 points missed here gave him an extra draw step. I feel like I may need to do a bit of testing to find the right card for both midrange and the Miracles match ups. The Miracles match up seems fine but I would really just like a way to fight them on a new axis. I think Garruk Relentless might fit the bill. It is tough for them to Counterbalance and they probably only have one or two ways to answer it. The constant stream of 2/2s or 1/1s pressures their life total or Jace. The constant creatures also tax their removal suite. I have also been thinking about trying Ashiok but it seems weaker as you are working towards milling them out and may get a touch of value from a SCM or VC. Ashiok is cool in that it makes Top a bit less reliable. I just don't think I can warrant a sideboard slot on Zur's Weirding in my local meta. If an open field is likely to contain a ton of Miracles and Omnishow, I might reconsider. As for the "new mulligan rule," we may be able to shave a land to 19 and be a bit more consistent, but we will have to wait and see if it will be implemented on all levels. Anyway those are my thoughts for now, thanks for reading and any comments are welcome and appreciated!

How is dark confidant?

[Sturtzilla]

How is dark confidant?

I have been really liking it. I have been considering dropping the Tasigur, the Golden Fang to go to 2 Dark Confidants. The raw card advantage is really good. I did activate Tasigur, 3-4 times over the course of the night. Bob being unaffected my graveyard hate plus the higher velocity in terms of card advantage really are making me lean that direction.

[KobeBryan]

I have been really liking it. I have been considering dropping the Tasigur, the Golden Fang to go to 2 Dark Confidants. The raw card advantage is really good. I did activate Tasigur, 3-4 times over the course of the night. Bob being unaffected my graveyard hate plus the higher velocity in terms of card advantage really are making me lean that direction.

2 bobs with 4 FOW and thoughtseizes

Thats kinda rough man. Why not 1 tasiguar, sylvan library.

[btm10]

2 bobs with 4 FOW and thoughtseizes

Thats kinda rough man. Why not 1 tasiguar, sylvan library.

His mean CMC is still less than 1.5. People really overestimate how much damage Bob is going to do and really underestimate how good card advantage is. If you look a couple of pages back I was running a list with Bob, two Digs, and Gurmag Angler on top of Forces. I've flipped Angler and Dig once each since then and won both games - one of which was against RUG (the other was Miracles, and to be fair, each flip came in the 'right' matchup). Don't get hung up on what individual cards cost. Focus on average CMC and don't forget that Bob has a body.

[Domri Rade]

I have only been playing the deck a couple of weeks after coming from Jund, but I have played to weekly events at my LGS and have been able to split top four both weeks. Bob has consistently won me games where I was able to land him on the field, and I was even able to beat a burn player that I flipped a FoW to (got pretty lucky there). I think I may drop my fourth copy of FoW in the main deck to play a third Bob.

I was wondering what you guys think about lilliana in the deck though. I have been playing 2 main deck copies and have found her to be pretty underwhelming in most of the games that I have played, most of the time when i play her I only use her to -2 then she just sits there the rest of the game. I loved her in Jund where I ran 3-4 thoughtsieze and 3-4 hymn, but she just hasn't been doing it for me.

[Whitefaces]

I have only been playing the deck a couple of weeks after coming from Jund, but I have played to weekly events at my LGS and have been able to split top four both weeks. Bob has consistently won me games where I was able to land him on the field, and I was even able to beat a burn player that I flipped a FoW to (got pretty lucky there). I think I may drop my fourth copy of FoW in the main deck to play a third Bob.

I was wondering what you guys think about lilliana in the deck though. I have been playing 2 main deck copies and have found her to be pretty underwhelming in most of the games that I have played, most of the time when i play her I only use her to -2 then she just sits there the rest of the game. I loved her in Jund where I ran 3-4 thoughtsieze and 3-4 hymn, but she just hasn't been doing it for me.

I'm with you on both points. I started with 2 Bobs a while ago, but it didn't take long to go to 3 as he's overperformed. I've since gone down to 3 Force of Will. I'm playing 1 TNN, which has been OK, it might become the 4th FoW again though.

I also started out playing Hymns and Liliana, but they were underwhelming for me. T1 Delver into T2 Hymn felt...weird, attacking their life total and hand wasn't what I wanted to be doing. I'd prefer to be attacking their resources they've had to spend mana on, so I'm playing 3 Spell Pierce and 4 Stifle.

[kryllex]

I am playing 4 FoW, 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Lillys, pretty much tapout. In the 2 creature flex slots im testing 2 Gurmag anglers right now - i played Tasigur for a long time, but he mostly "just" was goyf 5 and 6, rarely got activated, hes terrible versus DNT and now also miracles, since they play Karakas main again. As far as my testing goes, gurmag is pretty nice, since he is also decayproof and kills 80% of enemy-goyfs. I tested TNN, but i think he is just bad in this deck, since he is nothing more then a power 3 beatstick. Also thinking about switching to bobs - a friend of mine plays them (2x), and they are seriously good. Especially versus Miracles - Bob is the powerfist there. :cool:

[Sturtzilla]

2 bobs with 4 FOW and thoughtseizes. That's kinda rough man. Why not 1 tasiguar, sylvan library?

I don't see how. I would have 4 draws that are relatively painful and 2 cards that cause some life loss (with 4 DRS, which can gain me life). The average CMC of the deck is still very low, which is what you really care about when you are playing Bob. I have said this a few times before and I will say it again, I have flipped FoWs, a Tombstalker, and once a DTT to a Dark Confidant. Never has the life loss from Bob killed me or, more importantly, put me in an unwinnable game state (for example, dead to my opponent's board). So my reasoning for 2 Bobs over a Tasigur and Library split would be the following:

1. Bob is consistently easier to cast post board in the face of opposing DRS, RiP, Relics, etc than Tasigur.
2. Bob is consistent card advantage, Tasigur does not always provide card advantage.
3. Bob is on average a better rate on card advantage than Sylvan Library. 4 life per extra card is going to be more than Bob, unless you flip one of 4 FoWs.
4. Bob has a body. Yes it is smaller than Tasigur, but 2 2/1s will give you more play than a 4/5 and an enchantment. In line with this point, Bob can do things like block, as soon as you play him, Library really is kind of like Time Walking yourself so that you can get better selection and some card advantage on subsequent turns.

If you are skepitcal of my good friend, Robert, pick up a couple copies and give him a try. I am pretty sure that you will like how he works.



His mean CMC is still less than 1.5. People really overestimate how much damage Bob is going to do and really underestimate how good card advantage is. If you look a couple of pages back I was running a list with Bob, two Digs, and Gurmag Angler on top of Forces. I've flipped Angler and Dig once each since then and won both games - one of which was against RUG (the other was Miracles, and to be fair, each flip came in the 'right' matchup). Don't get hung up on what individual cards cost. Focus on average CMC and don't forget that Bob has a body.

I completely agree. Card advantage is very meaningful and I think players often don't recognize how powerful it can be. Your life total really isn't meaningful until you are dead. More specifically those first 19 life points don't really matter. It is the last 1 that matters. This is a very simplistic argument and match up to match up this value might need to be buffered. Say in the Burn match up, you probably don't want to got to 1 life. You probably want to try to stabilize around 10 +/- 2 area. Conversely, I have killed Omnishow and Sneak and Show opponents while my life total was between 1 and 5 life. In these match ups your life total truly doesn't matter until you are dead. The core idea being that, paying life for cards is typically good so long as it does not kill you. Moreover, with a low average CMC of cards in the deck, we shouldn't be loosing much life anyway.

[Thedougler]

I am still quite new to the deck and legacy in general, but I have been jamming a bunch of games and played in a few proxy events at my LGS. I started out with a more black heavy build, and transitioned into an awkward hybrid deck that was a little clunky with too many double mana costs, into where I am now with a Blue heavy build.

I am wondering what you guys think about this build. It definitely felt better than the black heavy version I played in my first tournament, but it is also probably the fact that I am becoming more comfortable piloting it as well.

I felt like True-name really was a powerhouse against most decks, and powering him out on Turn 2 with a deathrite shaman was almost unbeatable to a lot of decks. I wasn't sure about Dig Through Time at first, but it felt really strong in the games I played to find sideboard 1-ofs and various answers to specific threats on board. The basic island was a card I thought could be useful because I play in a wasteland heavy meta, and having a more resilient blue source felt important to me. I'm not sure that it is necessary though, and could screw me over with Abrupt Decay and Deathrite in the deck.

I think I am still having trouble with the sideboard, 2/3 legacy events in town right now are proxy events to build interest in the format, so the meta is not super stable as people are trying out various things, but I am generally worried about Miracles, Lands, and Death & Taxes (to a lesser extent stoneblade as well) which are the decks that more experienced players run here. Does anyone have advice on some good strategies for Lands? That was the deck I seemed to have the most trouble with, especially because I am not well versed in all the things it does.

Here is the list I am running:

Creature (15)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
3x True-Name Nemesis

Instant (22)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Dig Through Time
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder

Land (19)
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland


Sideboard (15)
2x Disfigure
2x Divert
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Marsh Casualties
1x Murderous Cut
1x Pithing Needle
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize


Thanks for any advice you guys can share with me!

[KobeBryan]

liliana and surgical has been very lackluster for me in this meta. how are you guys feeling about it.

[Domri Rade]

liliana and surgical has been very lackluster for me in this meta. how are you guys feeling about it.

As I posted above, Lili has been a dud most games, and as for surgical I like it because there is a lot of reanimator at my LGS.

[Lifeloss]

I am still quite new to the deck and legacy in general, but I have been jamming a bunch of games and played in a few proxy events at my LGS. I started out with a more black heavy build, and transitioned into an awkward hybrid deck that was a little clunky with too many double mana costs, into where I am now with a Blue heavy build.

I am wondering what you guys think about this build. It definitely felt better than the black heavy version I played in my first tournament, but it is also probably the fact that I am becoming more comfortable piloting it as well.

I felt like True-name really was a powerhouse against most decks, and powering him out on Turn 2 with a deathrite shaman was almost unbeatable to a lot of decks. I wasn't sure about Dig Through Time at first, but it felt really strong in the games I played to find sideboard 1-ofs and various answers to specific threats on board. The basic island was a card I thought could be useful because I play in a wasteland heavy meta, and having a more resilient blue source felt important to me. I'm not sure that it is necessary though, and could screw me over with Abrupt Decay and Deathrite in the deck.

I think I am still having trouble with the sideboard, 2/3 legacy events in town right now are proxy events to build interest in the format, so the meta is not super stable as people are trying out various things, but I am generally worried about Miracles, Lands, and Death & Taxes (to a lesser extent stoneblade as well) which are the decks that more experienced players run here. Does anyone have advice on some good strategies for Lands? That was the deck I seemed to have the most trouble with, especially because I am not well versed in all the things it does.

Here is the list I am running:

Creature (15)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
3x True-Name Nemesis

Instant (22)
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Dig Through Time
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
3x Stifle

Sorcery (4)
4x Ponder

Land (19)
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland


Sideboard (15)
2x Disfigure
2x Divert
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana of the Veil
2x Marsh Casualties
1x Murderous Cut
1x Pithing Needle
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
2x Thoughtseize


Thanks for any advice you guys can share with me!

Hey! Welcome to Legacy :D

You're correct to be off double black at the moment (this man's opinion). The reason is that Dig Through Time is a magic card, and Hymn'ing away a couple cantrips to gas up that card is less than ideal.. not where you want to be right now.

The thing that glares at me main deck is three True-name. There's a couple of things you can think about:

1) True-name can block Mirran Crusader, kind of a big deal. If you see a lot of matchups with that card ok, 3 is still a lot.

2) True-name i dont love against Miracles, he does pitch to force and he dodges plow... but Terminus gets him. If you're seeing the weird 'Miracle-less Counterbalance 4 Mentor in the main' list thats going around. He's actually pretty great.

3) Jace the Mind Scupltor actually gives you a lot more for just 1 more mana. You'll have the ability to switch gears into a mid-rangey type list (Liliana in the side) against appropriate decks.

4) You're not running equipment which makes True-name a bit worse.

All in all, three True-name seems excessive and if you absolutely love the card, he can be fine in smaller numbers.

[Lifeloss]

liliana and surgical has been very lackluster for me in this meta. how are you guys feeling about it.

Agreed, I'm on BUG/Sultai Delver and Shardless and when she's been average shes been average and when she hasn't been average she's been horrible (in both decks).

She's fueling up Dig Through Time for the opponent... sure if you can get ahead on board she can be ok.. but there's so many cards you need an answer for right away now. The problem is inherent in that the Dig deck's gameplan is to 1 for 1 until they can dig (or Miracles 1 for 1 until they can XXX), and if your gameplan is to 2 for 1 you're just speeding that up...

An idea would be to attack their graveyard, but that's not necessarily where I think you want to be. Affecting the board and/or putting some pressure on is how you're going to win.

Liliana has left me wanting. :(

[Domri Rade]

I have seen divert pop up in a few lists, can someone help me out with what matchups people are boarding it in for?

[jim111589]

I have seen divert pop up in a few lists, can someone help me out with what matchups people are boarding it in for?
Divert is for decks with removal, specifically decay.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Thedougler]

Hey! Welcome to Legacy :D

You're correct to be off double black at the moment (this man's opinion). The reason is that Dig Through Time is a magic card, and Hymn'ing away a couple cantrips to gas up that card is less than ideal.. not where you want to be right now.

The thing that glares at me main deck is three True-name. There's a couple of things you can think about:

1) True-name can block Mirran Crusader, kind of a big deal. If you see a lot of matchups with that card ok, 3 is still a lot.

2) True-name i dont love against Miracles, he does pitch to force and he dodges plow... but Terminus gets him. If you're seeing the weird 'Miracle-less Counterbalance 4 Mentor in the main' list thats going around. He's actually pretty great.

3) Jace the Mind Scupltor actually gives you a lot more for just 1 more mana. You'll have the ability to switch gears into a mid-rangey type list (Liliana in the side) against appropriate decks.

4) You're not running equipment which makes True-name a bit worse.

All in all, three True-name seems excessive and if you absolutely love the card, he can be fine in smaller numbers.

Thanks for the thoughts, the third true-name was a last minute switch and I cut a 4th stifle for it. I think I might have been too hyped on it after getting it out on turn 2 a couple times and just winning off of it, which is why I originally added the third. I do see a lot of D&T matchups where he seems very strong, but maybe I will try with the 4th stifle again instead and go with that for now.

In my sideboard I originally had 1 Jace, and I think I might put him back in there in place of grafdiggers cage, as I haven't seen anyone run a deck that I would need it against in my local meta. I think the only decks I need graveyard interaction for is a couple people playing lands, where I think surgical extraction is good for hitting their life from the loam.

[eostby]

One thought that I keep coming back to (even thought I've kind of set my work on building this deck aside for now as others are in much closer reach) is whether Ashiok might be a replacement for at least one Liliana in the decks that can't hit double black as easily. The main thing you lose with the switch is Lili's -2, but unless you're trying to kill something indestructible or Emrakul, is that such a big thing to lose right now? Has anyone tested this recently (other than probably Fabiano)?

[KobeBryan]

One thought that I keep coming back to (even thought I've kind of set my work on building this deck aside for now as others are in much closer reach) is whether Ashiok might be a replacement for at least one Liliana in the decks that can't hit double black as easily. The main thing you lose with the switch is Lili's -2, but unless you're trying to kill something indestructible or Emrakul, is that such a big thing to lose right now? Has anyone tested this recently (other than probably Fabiano)?

That thing is horrible.

No immediate effect.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Just here to report on another week's worth of Legacy. I went 3-1 this week beating Dredge (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0), and Burning Reanimator (2-0), while losing to MUD (1-2). From last week's list I made the following changes: -1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang and -1 Daze for +1 True-Name Nemesis and +1 Spell Pierce. In the sideboard I also made the following change -1 Golgari Charm for +1 Garruk Relentless. I made these changes as it had felt like I had been playing against a lot of UWr Miracles and UWR Midrange decks. TNN and Pierce are moderate upgrades in these match ups. If you can resolve Garruk and protect him, he runs away with the game. Against UWR Midrange decks you do have to watch out for Lightning Bolts.

Round 1: Dredge - (2-0)

In both games one and two, I FoW his discard outlets to buy time to get and double DRS active with Goyf blockers. Both games were very tight. I was able to keep him off of dredging in game 2. The deck is seriously powerful and fairly resilient to DRS. I have been very happy with my three pieces of graveyard hate since we tend to have 1-2 Dredge players.


Round 2: MUD - (1-2)

Games one saw a turn three Karn. Game two a trio of Goyfs get him. Game three a turn 3 Wurmcoil ruins my day.


Round 3: Grixis Delver - (2-0)

This build didn't appear to be running DRS and the mana base appeared very shaky. A few well placed Stifles and Wastelands made for two games of near solitaire.


Round 4: Burning Reanimator - (2-0)

I wasn't completely sure what was going on in this match up. However, I had counter magic and DRS in game one. Game two I just had the full permission hand, which denied him access to combo though any route. Game two, I did get a free Vendilion Clique due to a Stronghold Gambit, which is the first time I have ever seen that card played. It was pretty funny. He cast the spell, I read it, Brainstormed, found Clique, allowed the spell to resolve and got the Clique for free as he was trying to sneak in a Griselbrand.


Overall I am still very happy with the deck. I think that with a bit of tuning and tight play it can beat basically everything in a given meta. I am a little sad that I did not get to test out the Garruk that I slated into the board this week. Oh well, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. Anybody have and good plans for the MUD match up? I am thinking that maybe the Trygon Predator might need to come back to the board if this guy keeps showing up. All three games felt very one-sided. I am just wondering if anyone out there has some more experience with the match up. Thanks for reading!

[btm10]

Overall I am still very happy with the deck. I think that with a bit of tuning and tight play it can beat basically everything in a given meta. I am a little sad that I did not get to test out the Garruk that I slated into the board this week. Oh well, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. Anybody have and good plans for the MUD match up? All three games felt very one-sided. I am just wondering if anyone out there has some more experience with the match up. Thanks for reading!

Weird thing with Stronghold Gambit. I've never seen it played either. As for MUD, I think that it's probably the most polarized matchup as far as the discard and Stifle builds of BUG go. With discard it's not hard to make their hands semi- to non -functional because they can't afford ro mulligan marginal but keepable hands. Liliana is also a huge beating against everything but Wurmcoil Engine. The Stifle build just doesn't have a ton of tools to fight back against expensive permanents, no fetchlands, and bigger creatures.

EDIT: I obviously support Trygon Predator. But you knew that already.

Alternatively, you can do as the Euros do and go to BUrG for Ancient Grudge out of the board.

[iamajellydonut]

Round 4: Burning Reanimator - (2-0)

Game two, I did get a free Vendilion Clique due to a Stronghold Gambit, which is the first time I have ever seen that card played. It was pretty funny. He cast the spell, I read it, Brainstormed, found Clique, allowed the spell to resolve and got the Clique for free as he was trying to sneak in a Griselbrand.

Stronghold Gambit is one of my favorite cards, and I'm usually thrilled whenever I see it brought up, but this is an embarrassing usage. It has no business being in the 60 when its opposition is running something close to sixteen "weenies".

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play against 2 different Mud builds often, 1 of them daily. However, I don't play the Tapout version, I play a Stifle build without Liliana. I have also been playing a Reality Shift and an Echoing Truth in the main in place of Disfigures to much success. These both help the mud matchup and have been all around good in the current meta. Ugin must be countered, you will not win if he sticks.

I have found it a fairly even matchup, but its only even if you know how to play against it, know what build they play, and have either FoW or AD in your opening hand for the chalice or 3spere, especially if you lose the roll. There's a lot to take into account for this matchup, it has taken quite a bit of practice for me to become as proficient at beating it as I have. Playtest against it if you can, it's fairly necessary.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Sturtzilla]

Stronghold Gambit is one of my favorite cards, and I'm usually thrilled whenever I see it brought up, but this is an embarrassing usage. It has no business being in the 60 when its opposition is running something close to sixteen "weenies".

I completely agree. It probably would have been solid to bring/keep in against ANT, TES, Omnishow, and maybe Miracles. To play it against a Delver deck seems pretty loose to me. It was a very interesting deck. We talked about the build a good bit afterwards. I had read an article about it sometime way back, but never actually played against it. Having the chance to do so was pretty interesting. I wouldn't worry about it as a meta game contender. If you have counter magic and a piece or two of graveyard hate, you should be in fine shape.



As for MUD, I think that it's probably the most polarized matchup as far as the discard and Stifle builds of BUG go. With discard it's not hard to make their hands semi- to non -functional because they can't afford to mulligan marginal but keepable hands. Liliana is also a huge beating against everything but Wurmcoil Engine. The Stifle build just doesn't have a ton of tools to fight back against expensive permanents, no fetchlands, and bigger creatures.

EDIT: I obviously support Trygon Predator. But you knew that already.

Alternatively, you can do as the Euros do and go to BUrG for Ancient Grudge out of the board.

Stifles can be a real blowout if they try to activate a Kuldotha Forgemaster but I think that is really the only juicy target. Burning a Stifle to buy a turn when facing down a Karn Liberated or a Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is fine but probably doesn't leave you in a very good position unless you have a large force. Maelstrom Pulse might be fine here as well. I think that I like Trygon Predator the best, as it has some added functionality in a variety of match ups. Going to BUrG just for Ancient Grudge is a transition that I don't think is necessary. I think the match up is winnable without this change. I think it will just take a bit of tuning and maybe playing a few more matches against it. Admittedly, I don't have the most experience in this match up.



I play against 2 different MUD builds often, 1 of them daily. However, I don't play the Tapout version, I play a Stifle build without Liliana. I have also been playing a Reality Shift and an Echoing Truth in the main in place of Disfigures to much success. These both help the mud matchup and have been all around good in the current meta.
I have found it a fairly even matchup, but its only even if you know how to play against it, know what build they play, and have either FoW or AD in your opening hand for the chalice or 3spere, especially if you lose the roll. There's a lot to take into account for this matchup, it has taken quite a bit of practice for me to become as proficient at beating it as I have. Playtest against it if you can, it's fairly necessary.

I did my best to keep FoW and AD hands. I think part of my lack of success came down to him having good draws. I got to Thoughtseize him in two of the games and his hands were just outlandish. The idea of mainboarding Echoing Truth and Reality Shift is very interesting. I think both cards have their applications but in the maindeck they feel a bit weird to me. Thanks for the ideas.

[phazonmutant]

Stifles can be a real blowout if they try to activate a Kuldotha Forgemaster but I think that is really the only juicy target. Burning a Stifle to buy a turn when facing down a Karn Liberated or a Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is fine but probably doesn't leave you in a very good position unless you have a large force. Maelstrom Pulse might be fine here as well. I think that I like Trygon Predator the best, as it has some added functionality in a variety of match ups. Going to BUrG just for Ancient Grudge is a transition that I don't think is necessary. I think the match up is winnable without this change. I think it will just take a bit of tuning and maybe playing a few more matches against it. Admittedly, I don't have the most experience in this match up.

I really want to one day Stifle a trigger from a Chalice on 2 to resolve a Tarmogoyf. I would probably run around the room with my hands up yelling like a madman.

[Sturtzilla]

I really want to one day Stifle a trigger from a Chalice on 2 to resolve a Tarmogoyf. I would probably run around the room with my hands up yelling like a madman.

It would be pretty awesome! I would love to do it too!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Who is dumb enough to Chalice on 2 without a chalice on 1 against TA?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[btm10]

Who is dumb enough to Chalice on 2 without a chalice on 1 against TA?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

I imagine a Decay would be involved.

[Crimhead]

No DTTs in the winning list at SCG Open Baltimore. Also none in the fourth place foiur colour list or the sixteenth place Thresh.

I never play tempo deck's, but I'm curious if maybe DTT isn't such a great card after all for Delver? I recall when TNN was new, and to a lesser extent TC, people were running those cards a little over zealously until the hype died down. Do any Derlver players think that's what we're seeing here, or is this just a fluke?

[btm10]

No DTTs in the winning list at SCG Open Baltimore. Also none in the fourth place foiur colour list or the sixteenth place Thresh.

I never play tempo deck's, but I'm curious if maybe DTT isn't such a great card after all for Delver? I recall when TNN was new, and to a lesser extent TC, people were running those cards a little over zealously until the hype died down. Do any Derlver players think that's what we're seeing here, or is this just a fluke?

There are a lot of variables that go into whether you want to run Dig, and the things that make Dig good are the same things that make Young Pyromancer good - lots of cheap unconditional spells. I'd say that there are really two kinds of Delver decks now: there's the "traditional" builds like BUG and RUG that stick a threat and keep the opponent off balance while that threat wins the game, and then there's the aggro-Dig versions that want to play something closer to a counter-burn strategy that uses Dig to reload - these are the "fixed" versions of UR Delver from the Treasure Cruise era. This (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=85789) is a good example. That deck can play the traditional tempo game with Daze and Force, but its plan A is clearly just being aggressive while not being completely cold to removal and combo since it's only running ten pieces of disruption compared to the stock 12-16 + Wastelands present in RUG and BUG.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Another week, Legacy local event. I went 3-1 again this week beating Mono-Red Stompy/Blood Moon (2-0), Elves (2-1), and earning an awkward round four bye (with a 2-1 record) due to players dropping, while losing to ANT (1-2). From last week's list I made the following changes: -1 Pithing Needle and -1 Flusterstorm for +1 Engineered Plague and +1 Trygon Predator in the sideboard. My thoughts being that I wanted a repeatable means by which to combat the artifacts out of MUD and I wanted a more permanent means to fight the Elves deck that I knew were in the room.

Round 1: Mono-Red Stompy/Blood Moon - (2-0)

Both games one and two he resolves Chalice of the Void on 1. In game two he has one on two as well. Fortunately for me in game one I have Delver into Goyf which kill him despite a resolved Blood Moon. In game two I have a couple dead Delvers and a few FoWs to keep pressure off of me while the True-Name Nemesis gets him dead.


Round 2: Elves - (2-1)

I keep a loose hand game one and get punished as he combos off and kills me on turn three. Games two and three I have tons of removal and basically kill every elf he plays. Game two I even got to resolve the Engineered Plague. I think if this match up contiunes to show up at locals, I may change my sideboard Nihil Spellbomb to a second Grafdigger's Cage.


Round 3: ANT - (1-2)

I mulligan both of my seven card hands in games one and two. I mulligan my six card hand in game two. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy really put a hurt on me in game one. He is able to kill me game one before my Insect finishes him. Game two I keep Trop, Delver, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Brainstorm. This hand seems pretty good but would have probably still lost if not for a good read on my part. My opponent took a really long time to Brainstorm and then didn't crack a fetch land. I used this info to inform my placement of a Surgical Extraction. The removal of the Dark Rituals didn't matter, but the shuffling his Past in Flames he had left on top of his deck did. Game three, I keep a seven card hand with not pressure, but lots of interaction. I take too long to apply pressure and he kills me.


Round 4: BYE - (2-0; I guess)

This one was really tough...


I maintain that with a bit of tuning and tight play this deck can beat basically everything in a given meta. I am am still a bit sad that in two weeks I have not gotten to test out Garruk. I did bring it in against the Mono-Red deck as a diversified CMC threat, but didn't find it or need to cast it. Again, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 4th place this week, some awkward stuff happened and there were 4, 9-pointers. I think the ANT match up is fine. I probably just got a bit unlucky with all of the mulligans. Maybe I can tweak the sideboard to get a Flusterstorm or two back in there. I have also been thinking about Arcane Laboratory. It is pretty great against Elves, Storm, and Omnishow; while making our counters more potent in basically every match up. So I may give it some consideration as well. Thanks for reading!

[Cal]

I've read this thread on and off for awhile now but this is my first time posting. I am a legacy player from Chicago and I placed 33rd at the SCG Legacy Premiere IQ (Attendance 171) yesterday playing Andrew Rayner's list from GP Lille: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1243198

My fetchlands were mixed slightly differently (but I still played 10) and I switched the nature's claim in the board for a Krosan Grip (I felt that having artifact and enchantment removal that failed to hit chalice on 1 or sensei's top could lead to more feel bad situations than I like).

While my result was not terribly good (they cash top 32 and post top 32 decklists, go figure), I believe I was the highest finishing BUG Delver player (yay?).

I beat mono-red Sneak Attack, Red and Taxes (not a typo), RUG Delver, MUD, and UR Delver.

I picked up an early loss to Harlan Firer on RUG Delver, then I lost my x-1 match to Storm which is very favorable and was promptly matched with Maverick, which is not.

If I was able to beat storm I would have been x-1 and I probably could have avoided the Maverick match which put me out of contention at x-3 and could have resulted in a higher BUG Delver finish (represent).

TL;DR Deck still felt great and ran pretty well, save for the occasional missing land drops against rug delver and maverick which occur when you have 20 lands in your deck and can't cantrip. Sorry I punted storm and didn't finish higher for TEAM AMERICA. Win your favorable matchups or get punished.

Thanks for all your hard work on the deck!

[o_boogie]

Hi Sourcers. I was fortunate enough to win the SCG IQ at Curio Cavern last weekend. They ran a fantastic event.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
9 Fetches
4 Wasteland

Side:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Envelop
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage

R1: Dredge, loss 1-2 (lol)
R2: Elves, win 2-0
R3: ANT, win 2-1
R4: Elves, win 2-1
R5: ID
Quarters: Mono-Red Sneak Attack Stompy, win 2-1
Semis: Since the top four split and both players in the other semis match had invitations they dropped so we got a bye to finals, yay!
Finals: ANT, win 2-1

Deck felt great. Hymn to Tourach was the MVP. The main deck Toxic Deluge was tremendous against Elves. Tasigur also performed real well as the fifth Tarmogoyf and for card advantage in the grindy matchups.

Prior to this tournament I was testing Dig Through Time. I was dissatisfied with it in this style of Team America. I found that most if not all turns I want to tap out to generate tempo; Dig is clearly the best when cast at instant speed. I also found it was getting stranded in my hand a lot. Dig seems to fit better in a reactive deck where you run lots of cheap spells to fill the grave (e.g., Gitaxian Probe, Spell Pierce, Bolt). I can see it being viable in the Stifle version.

Cheers.

[jim111589]

Hey all. I have the stuff to build this and the shardless version but I'm torn on which I should play. We only get one legacy tourny a month here so I can't get consistent practice. My meta is pretty all over the place now. 2-4 miricles, 2-3 omni, American delver, 4 color delver, 2-3 dnt 3-4 merfolk, esper deathblade bug delver, shardless, 2 jund and others I can't remember off the top.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[wcm8]

I kind of dig the list that recently finished 2nd in the SCG Open this past weekend. For reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87958

My thoughts on the list:

It takes the basic overall configuration of BUG Delver, but drops the Delvers themselves and plays more midrange cards in Baleful Strix and the full play set of Dig Through Time. A miser's Toxic Deluge is your Hail Mary against creature swarms and/or something out of Decay range. Even against a field playing lots of DTT, Hymn is still a powerful card that can randomly win games.

Daze of course is still amazing, even in a 'Control' deck as illustrated here and in GP Lille's winning Miracle list. Daze enables these decks to make it into the mid/late game where their superior card advantage takes over. (I should also mention how Daze can 'combo' with Brainstorm when you don't need so many lands onboard and can shuffle a Sea away for a new grip.)

Delver is at its weakest in BUG in comparison to RUG, UR, and BUR/(g) configurations. I think without Lightning Bolt, Delver is actually a weak card since you are generally pulled into the later game without the added reach of Burn. Black offers enough disruptive power to deal with combo even without an extremely efficient early clock. So I can completely understand the justification for dropping the card entirely. Strix maintains the Blue count for FoW and is just a powerful control card in general.

I would personally be tempted to cut one copy of DTT for a Jace, Sylvan Library or other threat, but I suppose given how busted DTT is and how you want to *always* have consistent access to the card that it makes sense to just play 4 copies. Perhaps it's simply the best overall Game 1 method of card advantage. I also think this deck might benefit from somehow finding room for a MD Tasigur, but that's just me preferring to have plenty of threats.

Trinisphere is an interesting sideboard approach to handling the metagame. It slows down the velocity of other tempo decks (which may even have trouble reaching 3 lands against BUG), stops Omniscience from winning on the spot, and also hampers plenty of other combo strategies such as Storm.

Overall, excellent job with the list and good piloting by Devin Koepke. I think this may be the direction that Team America wants to take, at least until the next ban/restriction announcement. I often questioned the inclusion of Delver in BUG.

[KobeBryan]

I kind of dig the list that recently finished 2nd in the SCG Open this past weekend. For reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87958

My thoughts on the list:

It takes the basic overall configuration of BUG Delver, but drops the Delvers themselves and plays more midrange cards in Baleful Strix and the full play set of Dig Through Time. A miser's Toxic Deluge is your Hail Mary against creature swarms and/or something out of Decay range. Even against a field playing lots of DTT, Hymn is still a powerful card that can randomly win games.

Daze of course is still amazing, even in a 'Control' deck as illustrated here and in GP Lille's winning Miracle list. Daze enables these decks to make it into the mid/late game where their superior card advantage takes over. (I should also mention how Daze can 'combo' with Brainstorm when you don't need so many lands onboard and can shuffle a Sea away for a new grip.)

Delver is at its weakest in BUG in comparison to RUG, UR, and BUR/(g) configurations. I think without Lightning Bolt, Delver is actually a weak card since you are generally pulled into the later game without the added reach of Burn. Black offers enough disruptive power to deal with combo even without an extremely efficient early clock. So I can completely understand the justification for dropping the card entirely. Strix maintains the Blue count for FoW and is just a powerful control card in general.

I would personally be tempted to cut one copy of DTT for a Jace, Sylvan Library or other threat, but I suppose given how busted DTT is and how you want to *always* have consistent access to the card that it makes sense to just play 4 copies. Perhaps it's simply the best overall Game 1 method of card advantage. I also think this deck might benefit from somehow finding room for a MD Tasigur, but that's just me preferring to have plenty of threats.

Trinisphere is an interesting sideboard approach to handling the metagame. It slows down the velocity of other tempo decks (which may even have trouble reaching 3 lands against BUG), stops Omniscience from winning on the spot, and also hampers plenty of other combo strategies such as Storm.

Overall, excellent job with the list and good piloting by Devin Koepke. I think this may be the direction that Team America wants to take, at least until the next ban/restriction announcement. I often questioned the inclusion of Delver in BUG.

Delver is probably your best card to get you there against elves.

[wcm8]

Delver is probably your best card to get you there against elves.

Sure, but Elves has always been a bit of a rough matchup, Delver or no. I think this deck configuration would try to win by landing a Goyf, then blow them out with a timely Toxic Deluge and swinging in, killing anything 1 by 1 with targeted removal. Maybe bring in Jace to keep up with card advantage or win via Fateseal lock. Perhaps it may even consider bringing in Trinisphere from the SB to slow them down (I'm unsure of this approach, admittedly having never played Trinisphere in Legacy before).

Delver as a flying clock is nice, sure, but it doesn't really address the primary concern of the matchup: Natural Order into Craterhoof alpha strike, and/or winning via card advantage via Glimpse and/or Visionary/Symbiote loops. Elves also tends to run Abrupt Decay and can stop your Delver from going all the way, hence the need for a definitive answer (i.e. Toxic Deluge). Either way, BUG still needs a fair amount of luck to come out on top in this matchup.

edit: also, Elves is just one deck in a huge format. I've already explained the rationale for dropping Delver in BUG, but this is especially true because of every other deck that's adapted their 75 to deal with Delver (i.e. pretty much every tier 1 and 2 deck).

[btm10]

I kind of dig the list that recently finished 2nd in the SCG Open this past weekend. For reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87958

My thoughts on the list:

It takes the basic overall configuration of BUG Delver, but drops the Delvers themselves and plays more midrange cards in Baleful Strix and the full play set of Dig Through Time. A miser's Toxic Deluge is your Hail Mary against creature swarms and/or something out of Decay range. Even against a field playing lots of DTT, Hymn is still a powerful card that can randomly win games.

Daze of course is still amazing, even in a 'Control' deck as illustrated here and in GP Lille's winning Miracle list. Daze enables these decks to make it into the mid/late game where their superior card advantage takes over. (I should also mention how Daze can 'combo' with Brainstorm when you don't need so many lands onboard and can shuffle a Sea away for a new grip.)

Delver is at its weakest in BUG in comparison to RUG, UR, and BUR/(g) configurations. I think without Lightning Bolt, Delver is actually a weak card since you are generally pulled into the later game without the added reach of Burn. Black offers enough disruptive power to deal with combo even without an extremely efficient early clock. So I can completely understand the justification for dropping the card entirely. Strix maintains the Blue count for FoW and is just a powerful control card in general.

I would personally be tempted to cut one copy of DTT for a Jace, Sylvan Library or other threat, but I suppose given how busted DTT is and how you want to *always* have consistent access to the card that it makes sense to just play 4 copies. Perhaps it's simply the best overall Game 1 method of card advantage. I also think this deck might benefit from somehow finding room for a MD Tasigur, but that's just me preferring to have plenty of threats.

Trinisphere is an interesting sideboard approach to handling the metagame. It slows down the velocity of other tempo decks (which may even have trouble reaching 3 lands against BUG), stops Omniscience from winning on the spot, and also hampers plenty of other combo strategies such as Storm.

Overall, excellent job with the list and good piloting by Devin Koepke. I think this may be the direction that Team America wants to take, at least until the next ban/restriction announcement. I often questioned the inclusion of Delver in BUG.


I posted something similar in the Team America (Midrange/Control) thread and discussed this with Sturtzilla earlier today. I actually tried Dig in something like Phimus Pan's BUG Control (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65251) list when Khans was first spoiled and while it was really good, the Dig Through Time decks were just too fast and too efficient to keep up. Recent testing has suggested that Liliana is still great against lots of random decks - including Grixis if you have other ways to contain Pyromancer - but not as good with Dig as she is with Visions. I'm embarrassed to say that despite testing something very similar and going down to a 1/2 Jace/Liliana split, I never cut them entirely or moved off of spot discard in favor of Hymn. I think (as I said in the other thread) that Koepke's list is likely a little too redundant for a list with 8 cantrips and 4 Digs - 4 Daze is probably a little much and a land can likely be shaved somewhere, just on inspection.

As for why people run Delver in BUG, you still get a lot of free wins off of Delver + Daze and don't lose that much in terms of going long.

[Cal]

I posted something similar in the Team America (Midrange/Control) thread and discussed this with Sturtzilla earlier today. I actually tried Dig in something like Phimus Pan's BUG Control (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65251) list when Khans was first spoiled and while it was really good, the Dig Through Time decks were just too fast and too efficient to keep up. Recent testing has suggested that Liliana is still great against lots of random decks - including Grixis if you have other ways to contain Pyromancer - but not as good with Dig as she is with Visions. I'm embarrassed to say that despite testing something very similar and going down to a 1/2 Jace/Liliana split, I never cut them entirely or moved off of spot discard in favor of Hymn. I think (as I said in the other thread) that Koepke's list is likely a little too redundant for a list with 8 cantrips and 4 Digs - 4 Daze is probably a little much and a land can likely be shaved somewhere, just on inspection.

As for why people run Delver in BUG, you still get a lot of free wins off of Delver + Daze and don't lose that much in terms of going long.

The deck looked pretty sweet from what I saw of it. I agree that it's probably a bit too redundant for 8 cantrips and 4 digs. One thing I did notice was that the deck was prone to long periods of durdling, during which multiple cantrips would be fired off in the quest for an answer to say, a Gurmag Angler, because the number of answers were so low. Also, the only card in the deck with appreciable closing speed is Goyf, so it also tended to take awhile to kill anyone. It might be worth exploring a similar shell with a few more high-impact one-off spells (maelstrom pulse, for example) and possibly a couple cards that can close the game out faster (trading a dig for a tombstalker/tasigur/angler, adding a true-name for a strix). I would personally miss the closing speed that delver brings to the table over strix, but that's a personal preference rather than an objective evaluation of which gameplan is better. But overall, minor criticisms of what was otherwise a really cool deck.

[sakote]

LANDS (20)
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SPELLS (27)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

CREATURES (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang


SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Force of Will

Meta here are plenty of Grixis delvers, RUG, Miracles, Jeskai and Omnitel. So many removal that's why I don't put tombstalker on my list. I'm currently deciding whether to change banana man to Gurmag Angler since karakas is my main concern against DnT and some miracles. Comments are welcome and thanks for the inputs

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Another week, Legacy local event. I went 3-1 again this week beating Elves (2-1), MUD (2-0), and ANT (2-0) due to players dropping, while losing to BUG Control (1-2). I kept the changes that I had made last week to the sideboard: -1 Pithing Needle and -1 Flusterstorm for +1 Engineered Plague and +1 Trygon Predator. My thoughts being that I wanted a repeatable means by which to combat the artifacts out of MUD and I wanted a more permanent means to fight the Elves deck that I knew were in the room. I actually faced both of these match ups and was rewarded for these sideboard cards in both matches.

Round 1: Elves - (2-1)

My opponent keeps one landers all three games. I am able to capitalize in games two and three very well. I was able to resolve Engineered Plague in game two which basically wiped his board and locked him out. Delvers earned me the win in game two and did so again game three albeit with some help from Deathrite. I nearly died in game three to a Craterhoof, but a Stifle turned off the enters the battlefield trigger, which softened the damage and allowed me to sneak the win.


Round 2: MUD - (2-0)

Game one I have Delver into double Goyf. I had to fight through a Wurmcoil Engine, but a Stifle stopped the token generation and eventually the Insect kills him. Game two I have the literal nuts: fetchlands x2, Deathrite, Trygon Predator, FoW, Spell Pierce, Ponder. A turn two Predator turns this game very one-sided. I basically get to play with a one sided Abyss. The Predator eats his best permanent each turn, while I help the counter spells for big, dumb Planeswalkers. As it turns out, this is probably a realistic plan for this match up.


Round 3: BUG Control - (1-2)

I misassign roles in this match up. I don't see a Jace or Strix until game three at which point, I had boarded for the mirror. This costs me the match. Thinking back there was a turn that had I played more conservative, to protect Garruk Relentless, I might have been able to win. I will have to think a bit about this match up.


Round 4: ANT - (2-0)

I have good openers in both games with Delver and disruption. In game one, my opponent Brainstorms into Tendrils, Past in Flames, and Ad Nasuem with no way to shuffle. This buys me tons of time and I get to Delver him out. In game two he mulligans to 5 and more or less the same thing happens. I had been thinking about tuning a bit for this match up, in that maybe a Flusterstorm or two would be good. I am not sure if it is necessary. The maindeck is probably decent in the first place.


I did cast and resolve Garruk this week, but due to some aggressive play, he died quickly. I think had I been more conservative, Garruk would have been able to help me stabilize. Again, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. I think the ANT match up is fine. The MUD match up can get really out of hand very quickly. A recurring destruction effect worked out well this week. The question is do we want a slower reoccuring effect (Predator) or maybe something a bit faster (Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, etc.). I am still not sure. Effects such as Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence might even be worth considering. I have also been thinking about Arcane Laboratory. It has application in two or three of the match ups that I played in this week, it might be worth giving a shot. If you guys have any thoughts on the MUD or BUG Control match ups, let me know. Thanks for reading!

[btm10]

Round 2: MUD - (2-0)

Game one I have Delver into double Goyf. I had to fight through a Wurmcoil Engine, but a Stifle stopped the token generation and eventually the Insect kills him. Game two I have the literal nuts: fetchlands x2, Deathrite, Trygon Predator, FoW, Spell Pierce, Ponder. A turn two Predator turns this game very one-sided. I basically get to play with a one sided Abyss. The Predator eats his best permanent each turn, while I help the counter spells for big, dumb Planeswalkers. As it turns out, this is probably a realistic plan for this match up.


Round 3: BUG Control - (1-2)

I misassign roles in this match up. I don't see a Jace or Strix until game three at which point, I had boarded for the mirror. This costs me the match. Thinking back there was a turn that had I played more conservative, to protect Garruk Relentless, I might have been able to win. I will have to think a bit about this match up.


I did cast and resolve Garruk this week, but due to some aggressive play, he died quickly. I think had I been more conservative, Garruk would have been able to help me stabilize. Again, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. I think the ANT match up is fine. The MUD match up can get really out of hand very quickly. A recurring destruction effect worked out well this week. The question is do we want a slower reoccuring effect (Predator) or maybe something a bit faster (Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, etc.). I am still not sure. Effects such as Creeping Corrosion and Seeds of Innocence might even be worth considering. I have also been thinking about Arcane Laboratory. It has application in two or three of the match ups that I played in this week, it might be worth giving a shot. If you guys have any thoughts on the MUD or BUG Control match ups, let me know. Thanks for reading!

I just picked up a Garruk Relentless so I'll be trying him out soon. Predator is probably the solution to MUD - they can't really block it and and they're relying on a fairly small chunk of gas to get rolling in most games. Murderous Cut and Krosan Grip are both great, maybe you want another Thoughtseize too? As for BUG Control - I imagine that Strix and Jace are the main issues here and I can see Garruk being great against it. It's a fairly close matchup from what I remember from last year, but I'm not really sure how it'll play out with fewer Planeswalkers involved. When I was on the Phimus Pan list it was mostly a race to get into the Jace/Liliana grind; I guess here you want to stop them from locking up the ground and from Digging. From playing Control a bit over the past week you really don't seem to cement a lead until you cast Dig. The deck is less reliant on Digging than something like Grixis because more of its cards are powerful as standalone threats, but getting the raw card advantage is important. Disfigure and Golgari Charm are probably important to deal with Goyf stalemates and Strixes. I know it's fairly old tech, but that Negate I ran for like two weeks last year might be good.

EDIT:

This is the BUG Control list I've been testing, for reference:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis


1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Daze
1 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
2 Ponder
2 Preordain


4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thoughtseize
2 Null Rod
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[Fencingbrick]

I top 16'd the SCG PIQ in Indy about a month ago and since then have not had the time to test some recent changes I made and would like some second opinions on the changes if anyone is kind enough to take the time.
Link to the list:http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86605

Changes are as follows
MB: No change
SB:-1 Grafdigger's Cage- The second copy of cage was only helpful for the reanimator MU and with 1 cage, thoughtseize and deathrite shaman, i felt that i had a spot to free up.
-1 Thoughtsieze- the meta game in the midwest has shifted away from combo and more towards other delver decks, miracles, and death and taxes
+1 Krosan Grip- Top and Batterskull are difficult to deal with and this is a card i wish i had access to the entire event after playing 3 D+T, belcher, and stoneblade
+1 Dread of Night - I was X-2 and played against death and taxes three time with it being both of my losses, also has utility against mentor decks that have shown more numbers following the GP

Thank you for reading and for your feedback!

[Sturtzilla]

I just picked up a Garruk Relentless so I'll be trying him out soon. Predator is probably the solution to MUD - they can't really block it and and they're relying on a fairly small chunk of gas to get rolling in most games. Murderous Cut and Krosan Grip are both great, maybe you want another Thoughtseize too? As for BUG Control - I imagine that Strix and Jace are the main issues here and I can see Garruk being great against it. It's a fairly close matchup from what I remember from last year, but I'm not really sure how it'll play out with fewer Planeswalkers involved. When I was on the Phimus Pan list it was mostly a race to get into the Jace/Liliana grind; I guess here you want to stop them from locking up the ground and from Digging. From playing Control a bit over the past week you really don't seem to cement a lead until you cast Dig. The deck is less reliant on Digging than something like Grixis because more of its cards are powerful as standalone threats, but getting the raw card advantage is important. Disfigure and Golgari Charm are probably important to deal with Goyf stalemates and Strixes. I know it's fairly old tech, but that Negate I ran for like two weeks last year might be good.

The Negate does sound like it might be worth a shot. Hard counters for opposing planeswalkers as well as for combo match ups are a decent way to work this. Golgari Charm or the like for Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis also seem strong. I will have to tweak the sideboard and give it another shot tonight.



I top 16'd the SCG PIQ in Indy about a month ago and since then have not had the time to test some recent changes I made and would like some second opinions on the changes if anyone is kind enough to take the time.
Link to the list:http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=86605

Changes are as follows
MB: No change
SB:-1 Grafdigger's Cage- The second copy of cage was only helpful for the reanimator MU and with 1 cage, thoughtseize and deathrite shaman, i felt that i had a spot to free up.
-1 Thoughtsieze- the meta game in the midwest has shifted away from combo and more towards other delver decks, miracles, and death and taxes
+1 Krosan Grip- Top and Batterskull are difficult to deal with and this is a card i wish i had access to the entire event after playing 3 D+T, belcher, and stoneblade
+1 Dread of Night - I was X-2 and played against death and taxes three time with it being both of my losses, also has utility against mentor decks that have shown more numbers following the GP

Thank you for reading and for your feedback!

This is a hard question to answer as context is very important. If you are planning on hitting up another SCG PIQ then I think that your proposed changes look fine. I agree that there has been an increase in the number of Monastery Mentors being played. Death and Taxes can be a heard match up. Due to both of these items, a sideboard Dread of Night is probably a fine call. I have been running Engineered Plague in the same capacity. It can take out Monk tokens, hits all of the Humans in DnT, and is basically a blow out in the Elves match up. I think no artifact destruction is really asking for trouble. Krosan Grip gives you a way to interact with Top and Batterskull, while also hitting Counterbalance and Blood Moon. The :g: mana specificity really helps with getting out from under a Blood Moon that has resolved. I think I would agree with your plan here of -1 Cage and -1 Thoughtseize for +1 KGrip and +1 Dread of Night. These both seem like good ways to diversify. How did the maindeck Murderous Cut work out for you? I find that and interesting call. If you are planning on playing at a small event or weekly at your LGS, then I am not sure how to help. Local metas are hard to predict and vary in their rate of change. So if that is the case, I would play and then tune based on what I observed being played for the next week. I hope this helps.

[alphastryk]

The Negate does sound like it might be worth a shot. Hard counters for opposing planeswalkers as well as for combo match ups are a decent way to work this. Golgari Charm or the like for Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis also seem strong. I will have to tweak the sideboard and give it another shot tonight.
...

If you're planning to play Negate, is it worth just playing Countersquall? How much harder is it to cast?

[btm10]

If you're planning to play Negate, is it worth just playing Countersquall? How much harder is it to cast?

There aren't a whole lot of situations that I can think of where Countersquall is harder (too hard?) to cast; it means holding up two Trops (since you can't cast Negate off of two Bayous anyway) or Blue source + Wasteland, and the first scenario involves awkward draws, a BB spell like Hymn to Tourach, or Port/Wasteland. The ability to cast Negate off of Wasteland isn't insignificant though, since decks like Miracles and Omnitell don't present a ton of Wastelans targets and Wasteland repesents 20% or more of your mana base. BUG Control obviously has plenty of nonbasics, but if you reach the grinding/Dig Through Time stage of the game, Negate is probably better than destroying their fourth or fifth land. I'd test both and see.

[Fencingbrick]

The Negate does sound like it might be worth a shot. Hard counters for opposing planeswalkers as well as for combo match ups are a decent way to work this. Golgari Charm or the like for Baleful Strix and True-Name Nemesis also seem strong. I will have to tweak the sideboard and give it another shot tonight.




This is a hard question to answer as context is very important. If you are planning on hitting up another SCG PIQ then I think that your proposed changes look fine. I agree that there has been an increase in the number of Monastery Mentors being played. Death and Taxes can be a heard match up. Due to both of these items, a sideboard Dread of Night is probably a fine call. I have been running Engineered Plague in the same capacity. It can take out Monk tokens, hits all of the Humans in DnT, and is basically a blow out in the Elves match up. I think no artifact destruction is really asking for trouble. Krosan Grip gives you a way to interact with Top and Batterskull, while also hitting Counterbalance and Blood Moon. The :g: mana specificity really helps with getting out from under a Blood Moon that has resolved. I think I would agree with your plan here of -1 Cage and -1 Thoughtseize for +1 KGrip and +1 Dread of Night. These both seem like good ways to diversify. How did the maindeck Murderous Cut work out for you? I find that and interesting call. If you are planning on playing at a small event or weekly at your LGS, then I am not sure how to help. Local metas are hard to predict and vary in their rate of change. So if that is the case, I would play and then tune based on what I observed being played for the next week. I hope this helps.


First of thank you for the feedback, the plan is mostly playing in IQ's until the next legacy open in the midwest (st louis in october) and plague has been something i had considered along with toxic deluge but give miracles has significantly more 3's if they have mentors and through thalia 3 mana sorcery speed is somewhat difficult, however the murderous cut has been phenomenal, since i don't play bobs in my version it isn't a huge liabiity and it gives us ways to deal with tasigur and Angler when they have other creatures to absorb liliana edicts. even in the d+t match up its so helpful having a 1 mana removal spell through thalia.

[Sturtzilla]

If you're planning to play Negate, is it worth just playing Countersquall? How much harder is it to cast?

Countersquall certainly has some upside in its text; however, Negate's upside is in mana cost/flexibility. I have certainly kept a number of one land hands with this deck, doing so with Countersquall is a bit more dangerous than doing so with Negate. You can cast Negate regardless which two lands, or land plus Deathrite. The same can't always be said about Countersquall due to :u::b: and our deck containing Wastelands. I think that they are both solid but those are the trade-offs you would have to consider.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's basically the same as an abrupt decay. Leave open a Sea and a Trop and it's mana for either.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[JohnBell]

@Fencingbrick
I like your list of Sultai Delver, but post side what do you take out and in vs Miracles?

[Fencingbrick]

@Fencingbrick
I like your list of Sultai Delver, but post side what do you take out and in vs Miracles?

That depends on several things, first whether im on the play or draw because on the draw you dont want daze in your deck at all and on the play having some number in is reasonable. Also whether it is the version with mentors in the main deck or the sideboard. My general plan is as follows;
On the play:
-2 daze
-2 force of will
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

+2 thoughtseize
+2 pithing needle
+1 library
+1 golgari charm /dread of night (if i see mentor g1)

On the draw:
-4 daze
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

bringing in the same thing as on play

[JohnBell]

That depends on several things, first whether im on the play or draw because on the draw you dont want daze in your deck at all and on the play having some number in is reasonable. Also whether it is the version with mentors in the main deck or the sideboard. My general plan is as follows;
On the play:
-2 daze
-2 force of will
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

+2 thoughtseize
+2 pithing needle
+1 library
+1 golgari charm /dread of night (if i see mentor g1)

On the draw:
-4 daze
-1 murderous cut
-1 tasigur

bringing in the same thing as on play
It seems reasonable, only one thing I don't agree: don't you side a Vendilion Clique for Jace TMS?

[Fencingbrick]

It seems reasonable, only one thing I don't agree: don't you side a Vendilion Clique for Jace TMS?

i've found JTMS to actually to be significantly worse than the clique against miracles because we don't care about messing with the top of their deck since counterbalance is nothing than a minor annoyance and its usually the first card the side out, clique still interacts with them on the level we want to while still providing a clock. if they are on the mentor plan, they can easily just attack JTMS dead very quickly because simply unsummoning a mentor doesn't do anything if they make 1-2 tokens (which is fairly easy to do). karakas can be fairly annoying but it is already reasonable against us because tasigur, so we do have 4x wasteland after board still and if they bounce our clique thats generally gonna be ok for us. but while yes JTMS is a powerful card, i think it just doesn't necesairly do as much as we would like. although i did realize i left the clique out of my sb plan so just to clarify my SB plan is as follows:

On the play:
-2 daze
-2 force of will
-1 murderous cut
-2 tasigur

+2 thoughtseize
+2 pithing needle
+1 library
+1 Clique
+1 golgari charm /dread of night (if i see mentor g1)

On the draw:
-4 daze
-1 murderous cut
-2 tasigur

bringing in the same thing as on play

[KobeBryan]

i've been using baleful strix in the deck in place of delver.

I really like the card advantage. Goyf and delver becomes our main weapons to end the game.

I have also been using stifle build with 3 bobs. The card advantage is awesome, but I do not think stifle should be in. The reason for that is that baleful usually requires us to go long, but stifle is for a quick early game.

Any suggestions on the replacement?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Maybe wait to drop the Strix until the late early game unless they get down a serious early threat, where Strix acts as removal/threat reliever. That way you can maximize your potential of Stifle. Delver and Strix play different roles, even if they are taking up the same slots. It also ups your curve, so be carefully of that as well. I only play the stifle build, I dislike tapping out on my turn, I like the bluff potential.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[btm10]

I threw my old standby BUG Delver together at the last minute for SCG DC after deciding against something spicier due to a combination of not enough testing and not enough sleep. I finished 4-3 (dropped after my third loss when the rest of my car was dead) and all of my losses were due to either variance or my mistakes. I played the following 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

8 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard

3 Disfigure
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Null Rod
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dread of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
1 Winter Orb

The list performed very well overall, through neither of the MD 1-ofs impressed me. I think I'm going to test those slots as various combinations of TNN, Bob, Spell Pierce (as a 1-for-1 MD/SB swap with Library), Preordain, and Murderous Cut. Delving was never a problem for Goyfs or Deathrites. Obviously this is similar to the BUrG lists that have been putting up results in Europe, but substituting a stable manabase for Lightning Bolts and Red Blasts. I'm not sure where I come down on that debate, but without Blasts I think it's important to make room for answers to Jace. Golgari Charm might be better as Marsh Casualties or Toxic Deluge, though in either of those cases I'd probably cut Winter Orb for something else. One thing I've learned recently is that Loam decks are shockingly easy to mana screw by Decaying /Null Rodding their Mox Diamonds. A Trygon Predator may be coming back to the board for those matchups. Surgical Extraction severely underperformed and is getting cut.

[wwoning]

Great to see that someone is still playing the deck! I feel everyone has switched to Grixis and 4c Delver now or to the midrangey Strix list.

Your list is missing two cards, I assume 2 DTT since you speak of delving? Did you not get manascrewed needing BB and UU?

I've tried to make my list a bit more agile and tried to get Delver to flip some more. This resulted in the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Dig Through Time
2 Spell Pierce

9 Fetch
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

EDIT: Board:
1 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Murderous Cut
1 Submerge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
/EDIT

I have tested some games against Storm and Deathblade which were both OK. I'm hoping to take it to a tournament soon.

[sadface]

I'm building this deck and I'm trying to figure out whether I need to invest in Bayous or not (I have full sets of blue fetches and blue duals). In this thread I see lists running anything from 0-2 Bayous. Are these differences budget-dependent or build-dependent?

[Lifeloss]

I'm building this deck and I'm trying to figure out whether I need to invest in Bayous or not (I have full sets of blue fetches and blue duals). In this thread I see lists running anything from 0-2 Bayous. Are these differences budget-dependent or build-dependent?

The double black heavy version runs Bayou(s).

The downside of having Bayou is it is not an island, and therefore can lead to daze being awkwardly unplayable in some openings.

[Whitefaces]

If you're playing Hymn, Tombstalker or Liliana you want a couple of bayous. If you're playing the Stifle build you want a 3/3 split of Trop and Sea.

Going to give this a spin at one of the GP London side events. I've got no idea what to expect, so the SB is a bit of a mish mash. For a random meta the Hymn version might be a better choice, but I've always hated playing Bayous in BUG Delver.

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 TNN

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce

4 Delta
4 Misty
4 Wasteland
3 Trop
3 Sea

2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Null Road
1 Sylvan Library
1 Winter Orb
2 Disfigure
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jitte

[Sturtzilla]

I'm building this deck and I'm trying to figure out whether I need to invest in Bayous or not (I have full sets of blue fetches and blue duals). In this thread I see lists running anything from 0-2 Bayous. Are these differences budget-dependent or build-dependent?

The guys above beat me to it. The reason to include one or two Bayou is typically a consideration of the spell distribution in your deck. If you are trying to cast black spells, especially double black spells like Liliana of the Veil, Hymn to Tourach, and Tombstalker... there are probably other sideboard consideration, too such as Marsh Casualties, then a Bayou or two is probably necessary. If you are not planning on running many, or any double black spells, then you can probably get away with no Bayous. It has already been pointed out that it is awkward with Daze. It does compensate for this a little by being the best Deathrite Shaman land, in that it activates both mana intensive modes. I hope this helps!

[jim111589]

I saw a list from a local event that got second running 2 Usea 2 trop and 2 volc for 4 mb bolt and 3 sb reb and a forked bolt. It was pretty spice. Just wondering what yall think


Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
Creature ( 12)

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
Land ( 19)

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Dig Through Time
4 Force Of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library
Other ( 29)

qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
2 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This is already a thing. BURG Tempo has a thread. It's been doing well lately.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[jim111589]

From my understanding burg tempo ran pyromancer and was more grixis delver with drs and decay

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Wombo Combo]

Tarmogoyf is one of the things that differentiates BURG Tempo from Grixis Tempo. Sylvan Library and Abrupt decay are the other two I guess. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26647-Deck-bUrg-Tempo

[Whitefaces]

If you want to get nitty-gritty, this 'new' iteration has been called 4C Delver and did pretty well at GP Lille. I guess it's closer to BUG Delver than to anything else. With DTT sticking around, splashing for Pyroblast isn't unreasonable.

[KobeBryan]

If you want to get nitty-gritty, this 'new' iteration has been called 4C Delver and did pretty well at GP Lille.

I tried playing the deck. I felt I was missing a color consistently. I think I would only do a light splash of bolts and REBs in the board and that is about it. I would not touch YP.

[Whitefaces]

I tried playing the deck. I felt I was missing a color consistently. I think I would only do a light splash of bolts and REBs in the board and that is about it. I would not touch YP.

Agreed on YP, 4 DRS, 4 Delver, 3 Goyf and 1 Snap seems to be the default creature base. The mana is shaky, but having access to bolt is huge. From there it's pretty meta dependant if the sacrifice of a more consistent manabase is worth the bolts/blasts. Lots of Wasteland, don't touch a 4th colour. Lots of Omni/Miracles, blasts are worth it.

[jim111589]

But that's what I was asking. Just using delver, drs and goyf, keeping it more bug w/o YP seems fine. Just bug delver with bolt and blasts

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[Thedougler]

I have been recently working on revising my list for a bit of a new meta. I haven't actually played in any events here yet, so I am trying to build for a varied metagame.

I opted to continue running a more blue oriented maindeck, with the option to sideboard into some black-heavy cards as well as a plansewalker package if I wanted to take on a controlling role. What do you guys think of this build? Any suggestions?

Also if anyone happens to play in the Toronto area, that is where I moved to so I am looking for any insight you might have to the legacy meta there.


Decklist:

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
2x True-Name Nemesis

4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm
3x Force of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
2x Dig Through Time
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Stifle

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
4x Wasteland

Sideboard:

1x Force of Will
2x Divert
1x Teferi's Response
2x Disfigure
2x Marsh Casualties
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Thoughtsieze
2x Hymn to Tourach

[btm10]

I don't think that you need the Bayou if you're going to run Stifle/Pierce main. I don't see the real purpose in Teferi's Response, and don't like Jace in the board here since 18 Lands + DRS just isn't enough to reliably cast him when it will matter. If it's for Miracles, Sylvan Library is just better since it can't be Red Blasted. In fact, I actually like the black-heavy version right now for two reasons. The first is that Hymn can make both Mentor and Pyromancer embarrassingly bad (rather than merely irritating) in the face of your Goyfs, and the second is that I've found lots and lots of people boarding Red Blasts in against the deck and I usually want to be more of a BG deck postboard.

[skyout]

I don't think that you need the Bayou if you're going to run Stifle/Pierce main. I don't see the real purpose in Teferi's Response, and don't like Jace in the board here since 18 Lands + DRS just isn't enough to reliably cast him when it will matter. If it's for Miracles, Sylvan Library is just better since it can't be Red Blasted. In fact, I actually like the black-heavy version right now for two reasons. The first is that Hymn can make both Mentor and Pyromancer embarrassingly bad (rather than merely irritating) in the face of your Goyfs, and the second is that I've found lots and lots of people boarding Red Blasts in against the deck and I usually want to be more of a BG deck postboard.

With the blue version i run just tropical islands and underground seas. Are people in agreement that more control based variant (liliana, hymn, etc) are better positioned than the stifle variant right now?

[KobeBryan]

With the blue version i run just tropical islands and underground seas. Are people in agreement that more control based variant (liliana, hymn, etc) are better positioned than the stifle variant right now?

Liliana is pathetic in this meta.

Its a toss up for hymn v. stifle

stifle stops miracles, terminus, sdt, lands

omni stops their fetching, which is something i've seen quite of bit of omni players counter. i don't know why they counter my stifle on fetch. i guess they are hurting on lands

[ironclad8690]

I have been playing grixis, rug, and 4 color delver recently, but I have to say in the current meta stifle bug is the truth. I was struggling to beat mentor miracles and random chalice decks, and I found lightning bolt and gitaxian probe to be my weakest link while abrupt decay has proven to be extremely solid. I am on a similar list to the stifle list above, and I have found almost all top matchups to be favorable post board. I highly recommend Illness in the Ranks or Engineered Plague right now, so many pyros and monks. Just make sure you have at least a couple of ways post board to deal with Gurmag Angler, as he is the scariest thing for this deck currently seeing play.

As an aside, if you want to hop on board the 4c bandwagon, I recommend 4 decay 2 bolts rather than the other way around. It really sucks getting counterbalanced out, and uncounterable spells might be better than ever before right now.

[Kamus]

UWR and BUG delver archetypes are dead in the curret metagame.
Lightning bolt is too good to not be used.

Welcome to Grixis and 4C Delver Era :D

[wwoning]

Well, that's interesting. Some people think BUG tops the meta right now and other people predict it's demise. I think we could have some debate about this? Anyone have tournament experiences / results to share (next to btm's one below) ?

[LarsLeif]

I think that BUG and BURG have their individual strengths and weaknesses but not having access to Pyroblast/REBs in particular seems very poor in the current meta-game.

[H]

I think that BUG and BURG have their individual strengths and weaknesses but not having access to Pyroblast/REBs in particular seems very poor in the current meta-game.

Yeah, that's about how I feel. I think BUG is still very good, but it definitely suffers versus decks that have numerous mana sources and can chain Dig Through Times.

[KobeBryan]

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Baleful Strix

Lands
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island



SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast

This is what I've been playing with. There are enough decks without wasteland for me to play a one of volc in the side for the blasts.

[Whitefaces]

Small 4-rounder at my LGS last night.

I haven't played Stifle, Wasteland, Pierce and Daze together for a while. What a lovely family!

List

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Dark Confidant
1 TNN

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Decay
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce

4 Delta
4 Misty
4 Wasteland
3 Trop
3 Sea

2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Null Road
1 Trygon Predator
1 Winter Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jitte
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Submerge

R1 vs Death and Taxes. I hate this matchup.

G1 otp. Opener is fetch, waste, delver, goyf, stifle and a couple of cantrips. I know my opponent, he's usually on High tide, so I figured leaving up stifle turn one is reasonable to snag a fetch if possible as it has very little other value, and I have enough soft permission in the deck as well as bobs that the turn lost on the clock shouldn't matter. He goes T1 plains, Aether Vial, shit. T2 I draw a Pierce and drop a goyf off the fetch and waste. He misses his second land drop, next turn I cantrip to try and find a decay but don't get it. I manage to get another Delver online but die to Mirran Crusader and Brimaz. The race was close, if I'd played Delver t1 instead of leaving up stifle I'd have won the race. Punt!

SBing

+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Null Rod
+1 Trygon Predator
+1 Jitte
-4 Stifle
-3 Spell Pierce

G2 otp. This one isn't as close. Mother > Thalia > things, ports and swords. I had a one turn window to top deck a land, throw a Jitte on a Trygon and kill a Mother, Thalia and RiP. But alas, don't get it and he gets a swords. Crushed!

0 - 2

R2 vs Grixis Delver.

G1 otp. Hand is drs, drs, delver, daze, fow, brainstorm, fetch. Pretty good! I lead with fetch, sea, drs. Opponent probes, fetches, and plays a drs of his own. I daze, he dazes back. T2 I land the second drs and delver and force a pyromancer. With the tempo firmly in my court, I use the deathrites very aggressively to keep his yard empty for DTT and it's over quickly.

SBing
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Jitte
+1 Illness in the Ranks
-4 Stifle
-2 Daze

G2 otd. Hand is trop, sea, waste, stifle, stifle, goyf, delver. He probes, plays mire and passes. I play sea, and hold up stifle. What then ensues is him going waste > pass the next two turns, while I make land drops too. He then double wastes me, I stifle both and he manages to crack his fetch, but is now two lands down, and it's my turn. With the tempo gained, I land a drs, bob and delver the following turn. I then find Jitte which puts it away.

2 - 0

R3 vs Grixis Pyromancer (with Ascension)

I don't remember these games too well, as they involved a lot of cantrips from both sides! But eventually it came down to goyf doing what goyf does in G1 after going at his mana, and G2 DRSs put it away as there is a lot of food in the yards.

SBing
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Jitte
+1 Illness in the Ranks
-4 Stifle
-2 Daze

2 - 0

R4 vs Aggro Loam

G1 otp. Can't remember the hand, but I daze, pierce and fow everything relevant, waste and stifle his lands and a delver and goyf close it quickly.

SBing
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Trygon Predator
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Submerge
-4 Stifle
-3 Ponder

G2 otd. Similar affair to G1, I have all the counters for his threats, pierce lines up with chalice and liliana, decay for Knight, 2x Daze for Choke and Goyfs put it away quickly.

2 - 0

3-1 overall.

I'm still unsure on the TNN, but it's nice to have a trump card in the deck for creature matchups. Bob has been incredible, winning multiple games on his own. I'd like to find room for a third, not sure what the cut could be though.

[ironclad8690]

Tried playing in a daily yesterday but got the bye round 1, beat grixis control round 2, and then went 1-2 against rug delver that won the die roll. I will keep testing this version and let you guys know what comes of it.

Edit: Version I am playing for reference:


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Dig Through Time

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Dismember
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[Whitefaces]

Very interested to know how the DTTs perform, cutting a Stifle seems reasonable, not so sure on the Daze though.

Have you tried Bobs? As I mentioned in my post above, they're been overperforming. Only downside is the lovely synergy with DTT. Bob is better in the tempo version with stifles, pierces etc. And DTT better in the hymn/liliana build in my opinion.

[ironclad8690]

Very interested to know how the DTTs perform, cutting a Stifle seems reasonable, not so sure on the Daze though.

Have you tried Bobs? As I mentioned in my post above, they're been overperforming. Only downside is the lovely synergy with DTT. Bob is better in the tempo version with stifles, pierces etc. And DTT better in the hymn/liliana build in my opinion.

I want to try him, as he was one of my favorites back when I played jund. I had to sell mine to be able to get the blue dual lands, but I think I will save and buy some again. We could always yolo it like in the bob/tombstalker days and play a singleton dig through time, but that's probably just bad.

[KobeBryan]

Very interested to know how the DTTs perform, cutting a Stifle seems reasonable, not so sure on the Daze though.

Have you tried Bobs? As I mentioned in my post above, they're been overperforming. Only downside is the lovely synergy with DTT. Bob is better in the tempo version with stifles, pierces etc. And DTT better in the hymn/liliana build in my opinion.

Bob is awesome. Especially if you are tempoing them with constant card advantage

I'm running baleful instead of delver. The card is killing all those annoying gurmags out there right now and my card advantage is spectacular.

I had people use a bolt on my baleful just so they can get him out of the way since I was killing them with the DRS.

Also, it ups my goyf so I can be at 5/6

[Secretly.A.Bee]

List?

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[KobeBryan]

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Baleful Strix

Lands
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island



SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast

[fluuu]

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Baleful Strix

Lands
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island



SB: 2 Disfigure
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast

I like this list but -4 baleful strix+4 delver :laugh::laugh: i like to have one tourn threat. How is garruk performing for u?

[KobeBryan]

I like this list but -4 baleful strix+4 delver :laugh::laugh: i like to have one tourn threat. How is garruk performing for u?

The purpose was to find a way to stop Gurmag.

and delver is our worst creature in the deck.

Garruk seems like a win more from my testing. I only really use it against miracles and jund.

The bob, stifle, and the red blast from the board seems ot be enough against miracles. I'm not even sure i need the clique at this point.

[fluuu]

The purpose was to find a way to stop Gurmag.

and delver is our worst creature in the deck.

Garruk seems like a win more from my testing. I only really use it against miracles and jund.

The bob, stifle, and the red blast from the board seems ot be enough against miracles. I'm not even sure i need the clique at this point.

But u are in tempo mode...balefuls seems to be more control.

[KobeBryan]

But u are in tempo mode...balefuls seems to be more control.

Yes I said that 3 pages back. Its a test because of the gurmag problem

[ironclad8690]

So in another attempt to put my money where my mouth is with Stifle BUG, I entered a local weekly tournament. With 4 rounds, I thought "Excellent, what a great chance to show the power of this deck!".

So, of course, round 1 there is a new kid at the shop and I'm a little worried because new people in legacy, particularly the young ones, play burn. When he leads on Grove of the burnwillows into exploration I start tilting really hard because lands is an unfavorable matchup for any version of delver honestly. I lose game 1 to punishing fire and a pretty quick marit lage, I win game 2 thanks to Tarmogoyf, and game 3 he goes turn 1 Taiga Exploration, which I force. He goes Mox Diamond discarding windswept heath, exploration #2, Thespian's Stage. He has 1 card left in hand and I'm like "that can't be a dark depths", but just to be safe I spend my 2nd turn cantripping for wasteland, which I am unable to find. Next turn he just slams Dark Depths and Port, and that was all she wrote. Of course this kid just happens to love playing Lands.

0-1

Next up we have Merfolk. Normally, I am pretty sure this is an unfavorable matchup, but I get lucky game 1 and he keeps a mutavault 1 land Aether vial hand, I force the Vial and wasteland his mutavault. He plays pass while I drop creatures and finish him real quick. Game 2 he does typical merfolk things and crushes me with lords. Game 3, I keep Delver, Daze, Daze, Underground Sea, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ponder, since I am on the play and figure "Why not". I play Delver, he goes turn 1 Oboro, Vial, which I daze. I reveal Daze to flip delver, play U sea and thoughtseize him seeing Master of the Pearl, Lord of Atlantis x2, TNN, Island, I take TNN. He goes island Silvergill revealing Master, I daze it. I draw wasteland, waste his oboro, and proceed to beat him while he weeps. I just keep beating face. He gets a land, goes for a lord, I use Daze #3. On my turn I ponder, find Daze #4 and some other cards, and Draw the daze. He tries for a lord of atlantis again, I use Daze #4 (lol) and he just starts laughing. I attack while he does nothing.

1-1

I get paired against Infect. I get demolished game 1 by Invigorate/Vines/Spell Pierce/Stifle, but games 2 and 3 Wasteland and Golgari Charm/Dismember/Abrupt Decay get there.

2-1

Last round: Bye (there were awkward drops).

3-1

I end up coming in 3rd for no prizes because the lands kid from round 1 lost the next several matches to storm and omnitell and the storm guy has better breakers because he lost to the Food Griffin guy who got 1st (undefeated). It was a good day, just had a run of bad luck in round 1, normally I think lands isn't that bad but what can you do against turn 3 Marit Lage. I will keep testing and let you guys know what I find.

[Whitefaces]

normally I think lands isn't that bad but what can you do against turn 3 Marit Lage.

Sometimes they just have draws you can't beat, happens. It's certainly an unfavourable matchup.

I'm convinced the Stifle version is in a solid spot too, will be running it tonight at my LGS although I've trimmed on one Stifle to add in a second TNN, there are a lot of fair decks where I play.

Unsure on the SB choices, but we'll see how it goes.


4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Dark Confidant
2 TNN

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Decay
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce

4 Delta
4 Misty
4 Wasteland
3 Trop
3 Sea

2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Null Road
1 Winter Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jitte
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Submerge
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library

[H]

I don't think you'll really ever be able to cast Notion Thief in time for it to really matter.

I would definitely drop it for something. Probably a Golgari Charm, or a Life From the Loam (which would allow you to go harder on the mana denial plan).

[Whitefaces]

I don't think you'll really ever be able to cast Notion Thief in time for it to really matter.

I would definitely drop it for something. Probably a Golgari Charm, or a Life From the Loam (which would allow you to go harder on the mana denial plan).

You're probably right, but it's just a 'fun-of'. I wouldn't take this to a GP, but for a semi-casual Tuesday night I'm going to give him a spin.

Golgari Charm is pretty awkward with 2 TNN and 2 Bob, Loam is a good idea though. Lots of Aggro Loam where I play...didn't bring one with me unfortunately.

[wwoning]

I'm convinced the Stifle version is in a solid spot too

I still dont understand why we play BUG over RUG if Stifle is so well positioned. Are DRS and Decay worth more than the increased efficiency & access to Red Blasts RUG has to offer? I keep thinking about it, but cant figure it out... I know I should just be testing both, but I have a terrible lack of time to play nowadays.

[Whitefaces]

I still dont understand why we play BUG over RUG if Stifle is so well positioned. Are DRS and Decay worth more than the increased efficiency & access to Red Blasts RUG has to offer? I keep thinking about it, but cant figure it out... I know I should just be testing both, but I have a terrible lack of time to play nowadays.

CB and CotV are everywhere, so having access to Decay as your main removal spell is the biggest reason for me. RUG is a better tempo deck, but can get locked out by these two pesky permanents.

When I said Stifle, I'm meaning this particular build, not the actual card. Hymn and Liliana are just bad vs DTT and YP.

[ironclad8690]

Played in another DE today, this time I beat Miracles Round 1 2-0, lost to lands Round 2 1-2, then was awarded a bye. The lands game 3 was close, but I punted and Dazed something forgetting that I wouldn't be able to pay for Tabernacle on my Deathrite Shaman (lands were all exiled from yards at that point), but I almost got there. There were also 3 turns where I needed a delver to flip, and if it had the first two turns, I would have been able to attack for lethal, but it did not. Putting a Life from the Loam in my board because I have seen enough lands in RL and on modo that it looks like it will be necessary.

If it gets real bad I might just try out Tsabo's Web

[btm10]

When I said Stifle, I'm meaning this particular build, not the actual card. Hymn and Liliana are just bad vs DTT and YP.

I disagree with you on Hymn - Liliana isn't great against Pyromancer, but Hymn is fantastic at both recouping the card advantage lost to Dig and in minimizing the number of tokens that a Pyromancer or Mentor can make. It's also just an incredibly disruptive card in general. If I wanted to play Stifles, I'd play RUG because it's way better at exploiting the tempo gain. If I want to play BUG, it's for DRS and Hymn.

[Whitefaces]

I disagree with you on Hymn - Liliana isn't great against Pyromancer, but Hymn is fantastic at both recouping the card advantage lost to Dig and in minimizing the number of tokens that a Pyromancer or Mentor can make. It's also just an incredibly disruptive card in general. If I wanted to play Stifles, I'd play RUG because it's way better at exploiting the tempo gain. If I want to play BUG, it's for DRS and Hymn.

And DTT is great at recouping the CD from Hymn. The difference is, we're playing ours proactively and they'll be following it up with the DTT, mitigating the disruption element by grabbing what they need. DRS and Decay are the reasons to play BUG for sure, Decay especially with all the CBs and CotVs running around.

And I wouldn't count on Hymn to minimize the amount of tokens they make. They just have to chain cantrips together, which happens all too often often.

To go back to the list I posted before, ended up 4-0 at my LGS beating Miracles, Reanimator, Aggro Loam and DnT. Oddly, Reanimator was the toughest match!

H was totally right, I never got to cast Notion Thief, but he got Cliqued away once so did his job...kind of :cool:

Dark Confidants and TNN were MVPs by far, Bob especially. With so much cheap/free countermagic to protect him it's very easy to just run away with a game through his CA. TNN won the Aggro Loam and DnT matchups almost single handedly.

[H]

To go back to the list I posted before, ended up 4-0 at my LGS beating Miracles, Reanimator, Aggro Loam and DnT. Oddly, Reanimator was the toughest match!

H was totally right, I never got to cast Notion Thief, but he got Cliqued away once so did his job...kind of :cool:

Glad to hear your results were good. I play Notion Thief in Vintage, because there the fast mana means you can get him out quickly where he can make a difference (more often).


And DTT is great at recouping the CD from Hymn. The difference is, we're playing ours proactively and they'll be following it up with the DTT, mitigating the disruption element by grabbing what they need. DRS and Decay are the reasons to play BUG for sure, Decay especially with all the CBs and CotVs running around.

And I wouldn't count on Hymn to minimize the amount of tokens they make. They just have to chain cantrips together, which happens all too often often.

I have been running two Blue Elemental Blasts in my board more often than not. It's good before a Pyromancer, still fine after. It also helps a good deal versus things like Blood Moon, or just versus Burn in general.

I was going to switch decks for this weekend, because I thought the meta would be overloaded on fair decks, but a friend told me that the meta at this store is much more combo, so back here I go. Going to try a 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtsieze split and go back to 1 Dig in the main. Do you guys think also having 1 Tasigur would be too many Delve cards though?

[btm10]

I'd just run a second Dig. And it's no REB, but Dispel hits Dig and wins counter wars.

[H]

I'd just run a second Dig. And it's no REB, but Dispel hits Dig and wins counter wars.

OK, 2 Dig, 0 Tasigur. I admit, I'm a little worried about going back to running just 12 creatures, I've been on 13-14 for so long now, but my Delver flips have been terrible of late, costing me numerous games, so it's a give-and-take.

On Dispel, I actually bought a foil one at Eternal Weekend just because of that, :tongue:

[Sturtzilla]

And it's no REB, but Dispel hits Dig and wins counter wars.


On Dispel, I actually bought a foil one at Eternal Weekend just because of that, :tongue:

I am actually surprised that Dispel doesn't see more Legacy play. It counters most of the format's removal in Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, and Dismember (which has been on the rise). It is real trump in counter wars. Now that we are in this Dig Through Time era, it serves a third purpose in that it takes care of that as well. Back when we were in the Treasure Cruise era, some of us were using Dimir Charm as it lined up well with Cruise, Miracles cards, and numerous cards out of combo decks (Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor etc.). I think Dispel fills a similar role, but is likely better seeing as how this format normally operates at instant speed.

[Whitefaces]

I am actually surprised that Dispel doesn't see more Legacy play. It counters most of the format's removal in Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, and Dismember (which has been on the rise). It is real trump in counter wars. Now that we are in this Dig Through Time era, it serves a third purpose in that it takes care of that as well. Back when we were in the Treasure Cruise era, some of us were using Dimir Charm as it lined up well with Cruise, Miracles cards, and numerous cards out of combo decks (Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor etc.). I think Dispel fills a similar role, but is likely better seeing as how this format normally operates at instant speed.

If Dispel were a consideration, I'd just run Flusterstorm instead. The times where you want to counter a Sorcery will far outweigh the times your opponent can pay for the Fluster. There are simply way too many important Sorceries in Legacy to play something like Dispel in my opinion.

I also don't agree with Dispel filling a similar role as Dimir Charm (ignoring the mana cost), and certainly not better. Charm was fine (but not great) as it countered Cruise, a very problematic card, but also snagged game ending cards. What instants are more important than Show and Tell, Entreat the Angels, Infernal Tutor etc? Cunning Wish I suppose if they have Omni, but then you want to Fluster the SnT.

[H]

So, I've been advised of the possible meta contents of the shop I am going to. Of course, this is hypothetical, it's what a friend of mine faced last time he was there.

Storm (mostly ANT, but probably at least one TES)
Afinity
MUD
Esper Blade
Elves
Cheerios
Dredge
Goblins

Also probable:
Lands
Burn (Mono-R and U/R)

I am trying to fit way too many things into my sideboard. My build is the 20 Lands, 4 Sea, 1 Trop, 2 Bayou. 12 creatures, 2 Digs, 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtsieze in an attempt to fight some of these combo decks maindeck.

My sideboard looks like:
1 Sylvan Library (Blade and other StP decks)
2 Surgical Extractions (Dredge, Lands)
1 Garfdigger's Cage (Dredge, Elves)
1 Null Rod (MUD, Blade, Affinity, Miracles (if any show))
2 Disfigure (Affinity,, Elves, Goblins, Burn)
1 Krosan Grip (Blade, MUD, Affinity, Miracles)
1 Dispel (Dig decks, Storm, Burn)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (Burn, Goblins, decks with REBs)
1 Pernicious Deed (Affinity, MUD, Miracles, Elves, Goblins, even possibly Dredge)
2 Golgari Charm (Affinity, Elves, Goblins)
1 ??? (Maybe Pithing Needle, maybe Flusterstorm?)

Open to any ideas.

[KobeBryan]

So, I've been advised of the possible meta contents of the shop I am going to. Of course, this is hypothetical, it's what a friend of mine faced last time he was there.

Storm (mostly ANT, but probably at least one TES)
Afinity
MUD
Esper Blade
Elves
Cheerios
Dredge
Goblins

Also probable:
Lands
Burn (Mono-R and U/R)

I am trying to fit way too many things into my sideboard. My build is the 20 Lands, 4 Sea, 1 Trop, 2 Bayou. 12 creatures, 2 Digs, 3 Hymn, 2 Thoughtsieze in an attempt to fight some of these combo decks maindeck.

My sideboard looks like:
1 Sylvan Library (Blade and other StP decks)
2 Surgical Extractions (Dredge, Lands)
1 Garfdigger's Cage (Dredge, Elves)
1 Null Rod (MUD, Blade, Affinity, Miracles (if any show))
2 Disfigure (Affinity,, Elves, Goblins, Burn)
1 Krosan Grip (Blade, MUD, Affinity, Miracles)
1 Dispel (Dig decks, Storm, Burn)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (Burn, Goblins, decks with REBs)
1 Pernicious Deed (Affinity, MUD, Miracles, Elves, Goblins, even possibly Dredge)
2 Golgari Charm (Affinity, Elves, Goblins)
1 ??? (Maybe Pithing Needle, maybe Flusterstorm?)

Open to any ideas.

I don't see why you would need Blue elemental blast. The things you are countering with it are nearly ALL instants. except maybe for a guide and lava spike. If you have that much read, go chill.

[ironclad8690]

I don't see why you would need Blue elemental blast. The things you are countering with it are nearly ALL instants. except maybe for a guide and lava spike. If you have that much read, go chill.

I think he has blue blast to also help the goblins matchup.

[H]

I think he has blue blast to also help the goblins matchup.

Yeah, it's kind of a pet card, no doubt the weakest in the sideboard. However, when you catch someone with it, it's really great.

I'll need to look it all over tonight and tomorrow before I go Saturday. I'm still not sure exactly what I want in that last spot, but it may well end up being a Vendilion Clique.

[KobeBryan]

Do you guys feel this deck is dropping out of DTB. The meta is made to fight decks like this. Its been pretty difficult

[btm10]

Do you guys feel this deck is dropping out of DTB. The meta is made to fight decks like this. Its been pretty difficult

I think that has more to do with fewer people playing it than it does a fundamental weakness with the deck. I also think that more people playing Stifle is compounding the few-players problem to some extent.

As for H's deck, I like Maelstrom Pulse more than Deed in the board. It's less symmetrical and kills MUD stuff like Lodestone Golem more easily while being almost as good againsy tokens. It also gets planeswalkers.

[H]

I think that has more to do with fewer people playing it than it does a fundamental weakness with the deck. I also think that more people playing Stifle is compounding the few-players problem to some extent.

As for H's deck, I like Maelstrom Pulse more than Deed in the board. It's less symmetrical and kills MUD stuff like Lodestone Golem more easily while being almost as good againsy tokens. It also gets planeswalkers.

Well, since we lack an efficient answer to Dig, people are looking more at Red than Green at the moment.

Pulse versus Deed is really tough. Both are great versus tokens, but Deed can sweep up a board, which is important versus things like Ravager and the like. I'm not sure, may end up being a "game time decision."

[Cellar Door]

Do you guys feel this deck is dropping out of DTB. The meta is made to fight decks like this. Its been pretty difficult

I know at my local store I cannot play this deck and expect to do well.

I'm seeing more and more Gurmag Anglers/Tasigurs, which makes Decay look really silly. A lot of locals are playing stuff like chalice/prison or 8 moon painter's servant.

Played against a really sweet reanimator list last night running Gurmag Anglers and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in the main, hard to answer all those lines while still being vigilant on the graveyard strategy.

I've started playing a more midrange/control version of BUG to some great success, although I'm not sure how it would fair in a larger event.

Legacy is in a very weird place right now, mostly because of DTT.

[fluuu]

What xdo u think about life from the loam in this deck guys?

[Wombo Combo]

What xdo u think about life from the loam in this deck guys?

I've run it before, but my meta can have up to three lands players. I don't think I'd play it in a wide open meta.

[Whitefaces]

Got second place in a legacy event following a WMCQ this weekend.

Decklist:

4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Dark Confidant
2 TNN

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Decay
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce

4 Strand
4 Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Trop
3 Sea

SB:

2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
1 Null Road
2 Winter Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jitte
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Submerge

R1 vs Enlightened Tutor Miracles (Win 2-0)

G1 otp. I land a DRS and Goyf and manage to control the game enough for them
to eventually grind him out. He played Enlightened Tutor when he was on a
two turn clock, for what I assumed to be RiP. I had a stifle to stop the EtB
trigger, but he fetched up a Counterbalance which I was more than fine with
and FoWd his Terminus.

SBing:

-4 Daze
-2 Goyf (expecting RiP)

+2 Winter Orb
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Dread of Night (hedging against Mentor)

G2 otd. was land go from both of us for the first four turns. He eventually
tapped out for a top and paid for a Spell Pierce. This allowed me to resolve
Winter Orb followed up by a TNN. The fish got to work and I played tempo
spells/baited top activations when he had CB with useless spells to tap his
lands. I got a needle down naming Helm too, so wasn't too concerned about
the combo as I had flusterstorms for Wear//Tear or Disenchant. TNN is a fun
and interactive magic card.

R2 vs Mentor Miracles (Win 2-1)

G1 otd. I've seen him playing Miracles with Entreat before, but T4 he
dropped Mentor off Cavern and Ponderd, taking me by surprise. I made a
massive punt here and attempted to Daze the Ponder before decaying the
Mentor. He FoWd the Daze leaving him hellbent, but importantly getting a
second trigger off the mentor. This made all the difference and he found
enough cantrips/stp to deal with my goyf and dark confidant and attack for
lethal with the monks in short order.

SBing:

-4 Daze
-3 Stifle
-1 Spell Pierce

+3 flusterstorm
+2 Dread of Night
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Vendilion Clique

I don't remember too much of the next two games as they went on for a long
time, both very close. I got a Dread of Night into play both games, and
would have certainly lost without it. This was a very tough match, props to
my opponent who played well.

R3 vs MUD (Win 2-0)

G1 otp. I play a T1 Delver, exactly what I want except I have no daze or
FoW, I just hope my pierce is good for T2. He leads with Tomb > Monolith >
3sphere. Shit! Delver flips to a daze, I play a fetch, attack and have to
pass. He plays a Metalworker, which gets decayed on my turn 3. I only had
the single decay at that point, and as tempting as the 3sphere was, bolt the
big bird! He plays a lodestone and passes. I then land a goyf and wasteland
him. Goyf is a 4/5, I'm happy to trade with the golem. He instead plays a
second golem and doesn't attack. I ponder on my turn, growing the goyf to
5/6 and find a second decay for the 3sphere. He plays a lightning greaves on
his next turn and has no other play, I decay the 3sphere eot. This gives me
some breathing room and Delver + DRS finally get there. I made one huuuge
punt which should have cost me the game. He's on 2 life, with a forgemaster
in play. I have a DRS. I go for the kill, and in response he activates it
leaving only a greaves in play. I forgot they have Platinum Empirion, idiot!
I brainstorm in resp, and find a Stifle like a lucksack. Definitely should
have lost that game, but got lucky.

SBing:

+2 Winter Orb
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique

-4 Ponder
-1 Stifle

G2 otd. He has a slightly less explosive draw and plays a glimmerpost T1. I
have a delver (which doesn't flip the first 2-3 turns) and a daze for
protection. Next turn he plays a staff with a tomb, I don't daze as I'm not
afraid of it at this stage as I have decays in the deck and a Winter Orb in
hand. He lands a forgemaster next turn through a cavern, so no daze for me.
I land a needle naming it and a Winter Orb and keep chipping with my delver.
Two turns later he drops a second forgemaster. A very strange sequence of
plays then happens where I draw every other delver in the deck, 3 in a row.
I also don't draw a third land (I have trop and waste in play) or an instant
or sorcery, so my flipped delver is racing with the forgemasters while he's
using the staff to tap it/gain life, depending on the mana available because
of Winter Orb. The Delvers never actually flip, but they chump block enough
so the one flipped one finally gets in for lethal.

R4 vs DnT (Win 2-1)

G1 otd. This is a rather amusing one, despite being rather uneventful. He
has more guys than I do, and I don't find removal before mother of runes
takes over the game. What makes it makes it amusing is I played a
desperation brainstorm into a Spirit of the Labyrinth (no cards in hand at
least), and the turn before he's attacking for lethal he Revokers his own
Jitte as it's the only card he can think of that can steal the game. Neither
actually mattered, but we were on table 1 with people watching, so it was
pretty hilarious.

SBing:

+2 Dread of Night
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Vendilion Clique

-3 Spell Pierce
-3 Stifle

G2 otp. I open with a delver. He then wastelands me, ok! Delver flips and I
land a DRS. He has plains, go. DRS powers out a TNN which is joined by the
second next turn after he plays a Thalia leaving me carefree of something
like Cataclysm. It's over very quickly.

G3 otd. I keep a one lander, but with delver and ponder. He starts with a
vial which I fow and play delver on my turn. He plays a mom and passes.
Delver doesn't flip, I ponder and find no lands > shuffle. Draw a non land.
He draws a wasteland for the turn and takes advantage of this. I then don't
draw another land for 4 turns, but FoW a Serra Avenger and his clock is a
Thalia after sending my bug to a field. He also has two ports at the ready for any lands I draw, not looking
good! I eventually draw a couple of lands below 10 life. The final crucial
turn is I'm on 3, with a sea, a watse and 2 trops. He has Thalia, 2x mom and
plays a flickerwisp leaving up a port and a plains, and targets another
plains. If he targets the second port here he wins, but he was afraid I'd
waste it for some reason. I take this opportunity to play for my outs and
waste the port eot. I get lucksack moment number 2 and draw one of my Dread
of Nights, land it though the only black source (which should have been
ported if he played right) and then ride a Clique and Jitte to victory.

My friend is also 4-0 and we can double ID into top 8, we're 2nd and 3rd
in the standings.

QF vs Grixis Delver. One of the matchups I wanted to avoid. (Win 2-1)

G1 otp. Again, I'll have to apologise as there were so many exchanges I don't remember these games too well. We both end up hellbent, he played one DTT which I fowed and we end up in a racing situation. He has a sea, volc and trop out though so I'm able to use Stifle on a DRS activation and Pierce on a bolt to win the race with a TNN.

SBing:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Jitte
+1 Illness in the Ranks

-4 Daze
-3 Stifle

G2 otd. I mulligan to 6 and keep a threat heavy hand with no cantrips, he shoves a T2 Pyromancer and follows it up with wastelands. I'm overwhelmed by tokens as I can't find a decay early enough or Illness.

SBing for G3:
+4 Daze

-1 Vendilion Clique
-1 Nihil Spellbomb
-2 Spell Pierce

G3 otp. I mulligan to 5 and keep a 1 lander with delver, ponder, goyf, sea and flusterstorm. He bolts my delver, then wastelands me. I draw a wasteland and keep him off red for a couple of turns but start to get behind. I end up hellbent with a DRS in play vs a Delver and Tasigur freshly played, but I'm ahead on life as he's played 3 probes this game before ripping my hand apart with therapies. I draw a TNN but he's been holding up his single volc every turn, signalling a blast. I wait on the TNN taking the risk he doesn't find another therapy. Tasigur hits a few times until I find a wasteland, waste his volc first main and land the fish second main. Coupled with the DRS he's dead in 2 turns. Phew!

Semifinal. My opponent is on storm, what I consider to be a good matchup with this build. Unfortunately he has a train to catch so has to leave, but we decide to split the top 4 anyway, so he concedes me into the final.

Final vs Grixis control. (Loss 1-2)

G1 otp. I have the nuts. T1 trop, delver with daze backup. T2 flipping the delver with a FoW and playing waste > goyf. T3 double waste him and he concedes.

SBing:
+1 Vendilion Clique
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Jitte
+1 Illness in the Ranks

-4 Daze
-3 Stifle

G2 otd. I drop Illness in the Ranks T1, getting a 'shit, how do I win' reaction from my opponent. I assumed Pyromancer was his main win condition and would have SBed out Force of Wills and played Illness over a T1 Delver as I'd seen Spell Pierce G1. Maybe a missplay. The game goes super long and he outgrinds me with 3 DTT, Snapcaster mage and Kolaghan's Command all getting 2-for-1s.

SBing for G3:
+4 Daze
+3 Stifle

-1 Jitte
-1 Vendilion Clique
-3 Spell Pierce
-2 Decay

I have a weaker hand this game and get outground again. I have Illness which drags the game longer as he can't overwhelm me with Pyromancer, but the 2-for-1s from DTT, K Command and Snapcaster are too much. I made a couple of missplays as I was tired too, but this feels like a tough matchup.

Ended up getting a Judge Wasteland, FNM Brainstorm and normal Wasteland for prizes which was nice. As with all events I've played in, TNN has been performing exceptionally time and time again. He's slightly too clunky to go up to three I think, but has the potential to win games you have no business even being in. Dread of Nights were key from the sideboard too for DnT and the Mentor Miracles deck.

Using Strands and Tarns instead of other fetches was pretty relevant too. It caught two people off guard, thinking I was on Miracles, and I stifled/pierced/dazed them.

[Fallacy]

Hey All,

Returning to legacy after a break, as I've been playing several Modern tournaments these past months. Anyways, I've been playing Team for many years and coming back into it seems things have shifted a bit. I've tried reading up on the past few pages, but can a few of you summarize what you think Team's worst MU's are today? I see that Grixis Pyromancer is a thing. I saw that Steve Mann made a pretty sweet list to a 2/620 that seems to beat-up on Grixis Pryo (3 MB Dismembers, nice...)

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17951&iddeck=135444

[ESG]

Hey All,

Returning to legacy after a break, as I've been playing several Modern tournaments these past months. Anyways, I've been playing Team for many years and coming back into it seems things have shifted a bit. I've tried reading up on the past few pages, but can a few of you summarize what you think Team's worst MU's are today? I see that Grixis Pyromancer is a thing. I saw that Steve Mann made a pretty sweet list to a 2/620 that seems to beat-up on Grixis Pryo (3 MB Dismembers, nice...)

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17951&iddeck=135444

I would vote for these: Imperial Painter, any Blood Moon Stompy deck, Lands, Merfolk, Death & Taxes.

Painter and other Moon decks: Getting ambushed by a Turn 1 Blood Moon when you don't have a Force of Will is game over. Fortunately, the dominant version of Delver right now is the Grixis list that beat Stephen Mann, and that list can still win in such a scenario via Young Pyromancers and burn spells, so Blood Moon decks aren't prominent right now because they don't match up well against the top decks. If there are a lot of Lands players in your area, then there will probably be more Blood Moons.

Lands: Lands is easier if you play Liliana of the Veil or Diabolic Edict to give you an out to a fast Marit Lage, but having no basics means you can get locked by recurring Wastelands. Having a hand with Delvers loses to recurring Punishing Fire, whereas having a hand with Tarmogoyfs loses to Mazes, so there are several ways to lose that matchup, and you can only hope your hand matches up well. Surgical Extraction is strong, as is Pithing Needle on Thespian's Stage. The RG version is extremely greedy, so you'll win some games by aggressively countering Mox Diamond and Wastelanding any colored mana. You definitely have to pick your spots, though. If you play Thoughtseize or Gitaxian Probe, that can make such judgment calls much easier.

Merfolk: Merfolk varies depending on the list. The dominant list right now runs Chalice of the Void, True-Name Nemesis, and Cavern of Souls. Chalice isn't much of a threat since we usually have access to Abrupt Decays, but I would use them on Aether Vial, lords, or Jitte. Golgari Charm or Marsh Casualties out of the sideboard is pretty key. Engineered Plague is also solid. That card is seeing some more play as a flexible answer to Monastery Mentor, but it's really good here. The plan is just to race with Delvers, the more the better. Sometimes you can prey on their mana due to their curve being higher now than it used to be, and you don't need to play around Daze because most lists have dropped that card due to a lower Island count.

Death & Taxes: D&T is difficult due to our few ways to interact with Batterskull. Lists with Mirran Crusader are the toughest. I think the hardest variant is probably Imperial Taxes, although I haven't played against that version in an actual match. Imperial Taxes has access to Magus of the Moon via Imperial Recruiter, and they can drop it in with Cavern of Souls and/or Vial while otherwise posing the same threats in Batterskull and Mirran Crusader. The good news is Vryn Wingmare has been nudging the Crusaders out. Rest in Peace is seeing more play due to Dig Through Time being everywhere, so I would plan for it out of any deck with white in it. Dread of Night is the best sideboard card here, and I also really like Sylvan Library vs. any deck with Swords to Plowshares.

[ironclad8690]

I played a slightly innovative new take in a daily event today:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Dimir Charm
2 Dig Through Time

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sultai Charm


Miracles: 2-0
Deathblade: 0-2
RUG Delver: 0-2

Couldn't beat batterskull in round 2 and also got manascrewed, round 3 I couldn't answer nimble mongeese and he found all the removal he needed over the course of several turns while I tried to mount an offensive (both games basically played out this way).

I dunno, I was trying the list above because there is a local merfolk player and this seemed good vs it, but I might just be trying to beat a dead horse. I might just jump back on the Grixis Delver bandwagon and stop trying to innovate sub-par Sultai lists.

[Whitefaces]

Couldn't beat batterskull in round 2 and also got manascrewed, round 3 I couldn't answer nimble mongeese and he found all the removal he needed over the course of several turns while I tried to mount an offensive (both games basically played out this way).

Maybe give TNN a try? He solves both those problems.

[Asthereal]

I played a slightly innovative new take in a daily event today:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Dimir Charm
2 Dig Through Time

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Plague
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sultai Charm


Miracles: 2-0
Deathblade: 0-2
RUG Delver: 0-2

Couldn't beat batterskull in round 2 and also got manascrewed, round 3 I couldn't answer nimble mongeese
-1 Spell Pierce, -1 Dimir Charm, +1 Underground Sea, +1 True-Name Nemesis.
This should improve the list. Team America doesn't function well on just one land, which makes me always run at least 19. TNN should help win board position battles.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Nope. I play with TNN and play against 3 chalice merfolk lists. It doesn't ever get any easier. I'm going to grixis green.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Stephe]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
2 Dread of Night
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

Went to a ~30 person Legacy event. I lost ever die roll.. but it turned out okay.

Round 1: ANT - (0-2) - Quick combos for him and terrible hands/mulligans for me. Off to a rough start.
Round 2: Miracles - (2-0) - Stifle and Wasteland slow him down G1 followed by Goyf beats. His last ditch Terminus does get past my Spell Pierce and FOW. G2 Delver does work, followed by Bob and Sylvan Library for great card advantage. Next comes the Goyf and TMN with counters and Decay for his Mentor and Top/Balance.
Round 3: Dragon Stompy - (2-0) - He mulls to 5 G1, but gets a T1 Chalice. T2 Decay helps me out and he fails to find another land for a couple turns. G2 Force the T1 Chalice, followed by Delver and Goyf beats.
Round 4: Miracles - (2-0) - Again Bob helps me stay in the game and doesn't let him stabilize either game.
Round 5: 12 Post - (ID to Top 8) - 5th seed.

Round 6: Aluren - (2-1) - Delver quick beats, again Bob draws me 2-3 cards before getting Decayed. Stifle Recruiter trigger, and win 2 turns later. G2 he combos off before I get there (he was at 4 or 5 life) and I lack the counters to stop him. G3 takes the same path as G1 again.
Round 7: 12-Post (0-2) - Ug, this match felt terrible, like he had an answer to everything, and my openers/mulligans did not help. Get him down to 3 G1, but All is Dust clears the board. I drop another Delver and flip next turn, he gains some (5?) life, and drops Kozilek..so much for that one. G2 FOW gets Surgical Extracted. Wasteland doesn't slow him down much and back to back All is Dusts do work for him again. He goes on to take first and beat out Lands.

End up in 3rd/4th place winning a Dark Confidant.

[danpo]

Hi! This isn't exactly Team America but I noticed it has some things in common with a list KobeBryan was floating a few pages back. I went 5-2 with it at a GPT yesterday:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant (Robert)
4 Baleful Stryx

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage (Christopher)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle

Anyway, since this list is clearly not Shardless anymore and overlaps with some ideas being discussed here, I figured I'd go ahead and link to my report, in case it's interesting or helpful at all:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29910-5-2-with-BUG-Value-friends-at-a-GPT-in-California&p=903969#post903969

[KobeBryan]

Hi! This isn't exactly Team America but I noticed it has some things in common with a list KobeBryan was floating a few pages back. I went 5-2 with it at a GPT yesterday:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant (Robert)
4 Baleful Stryx

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will

2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Scrubland
4 Meddling Mage (Christopher)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle

Anyway, since this list is clearly not Shardless anymore and overlaps with some ideas being discussed here, I figured I'd go ahead and link to my report, in case it's interesting or helpful at all:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29910-5-2-with-BUG-Value-friends-at-a-GPT-in-California&p=903969#post903969

Thats like my list. Its not bad at all.

It stops quite a bit of fair decks with the baleful strixes

However, i never could really work stifle along with strixes since my game plan contradicted itself.

I wouldn't play toxic main. All the creatures are x/1 toughness. Also, I like the Jitte. Top is really useless since you have so much power from the Bobs.

[danpo]

Thats like my list. Its not bad at all.

It stops quite a bit of fair decks with the baleful strixes

However, i never could really work stifle along with strixes since my game plan contradicted itself.

I wouldn't play toxic main. All the creatures are x/1 toughness. Also, I like the Jitte. Top is really useless since you have so much power from the Bobs.

Hey thanks! Stryx and Jitte have been really fun together. My meta often features D&T, Elves, Maverick, Merfolk and Mentor/Pyromancer tokens, so mainboarding Toxic has often been better than it looks. Obviously I'm sort of giving up game one versus combo, but this build beat Storm twice and also Dredge in the Swiss, so.

Top is there because I'm afraid of flipping up FOW with Bob, but I'm open to ideas for stuff to replace it with. Not desperately in love with Needle so far either, but not sure what I'd swap it for...

[KobeBryan]

Hey thanks! Stryx and Jitte have been really fun together. My meta often features D&T, Elves, Maverick, Merfolk and Mentor/Pyromancer tokens, so mainboarding Toxic has often been better than it looks. Obviously I'm sort of giving up game one versus combo, but this build beat Storm twice and also Dredge in the Swiss, so.

Top is there because I'm afraid of flipping up FOW with Bob, but I'm open to ideas for stuff to replace it with. Not desperately in love with Needle so far either, but not sure what I'd swap it for...

read the flavor of dark confidant.

[Asthereal]

Nope. I play with TNN and play against 3 chalice merfolk lists. It doesn't ever get any easier. I'm going to grixis green.
Team America should never be tuned to beat Merfolk. Hopeless case, only makes the other matchups worse.
If Merfolk is a big thing in your meta, indeed switching decks is the only option to improve your odds.

[Whitefaces]

read the flavor of dark confidant.

Ponder/Brainstorm also do a lot of work to keep FoWs from flipping you off.


Round 7: 12-Post (0-2) - Ug, this match felt terrible, like he had an answer to everything, and my openers/mulligans did not help. Get him down to 3 G1, but All is Dust clears the board. I drop another Delver and flip next turn, he gains some (5?) life, and drops Kozilek..so much for that one. G2 FOW gets Surgical Extracted. Wasteland doesn't slow him down much and back to back All is Dusts do work for him again. He goes on to take first and beat out Lands.

End up in 3rd/4th place winning a Dark Confidant.

Nice result, and nice list!

12-post is a really tough matchup. You have to tempo them out, but due to the amount of mana they can produce daze and pierce look pretty embarrassing sometimes. We also lack bolt, so having no reach is a major drawback. If you face it again, try out Winter Orb in the SB. It's mostly for Miracles and Lands, but helps here too obviously. Doesn't even die to All is Dust :cool:

[wnorris]

Hey all. I have been playing Team since the treasure cruise banning. I have recently transitioned to the stifle build over the hymn build and I quite like it. I am still torn between playing Bob or Dig, however. What do you all think between the two? This shell fits bob well but the card selection from dig is hard to beat. I don't always need the selection as much as the beats, pressure, and continuos draw though. I am going up to Seattle in November so I really would like to tune this list as much as possible over the next couple months.

Heres my List:

Instant: 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay

Sorcery: 4
4 Ponder

Creature: 15
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

Land: 18
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Illness in the Ranks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique

[btm10]

I know I've said this before, but Bob and Dig are two great tastes that taste great together. So from your list I'd change -1 Pierce, -1 Decay or creature (15 seems like a whole lot, I'd probably cut TNN) for two Digs.

[KobeBryan]

I know I've said this before, but Bob and Dig are two great tastes that taste great together. So from your list I'd change -1 Pierce, -1 Decay or creature (15 seems like a whole lot, I'd probably cut TNN) for two Digs.

I don't agree

If you can outdraw with bob, there is no reason for dig. Dig is primarily to choose the card you want. bob just gets a bunch of cards in your hands. With this deck, the redundancy would make bob suffice.

[btm10]

I don't agree

If you can outdraw with bob, there is no reason for dig. Dig is primarily to choose the card you want. bob just gets a bunch of cards in your hands. With this deck, the redundancy would make bob suffice.

There is no conceivable reason not to run Dig Through Time in a deck that can support it. Bob helps maintain the velocity needed to use Dig to its fullest extent, which is the main problem BUG has right now.

[TLK]

I see Winter Orb popping up in people's sideboards. How effective has that been?

[wnorris]

There is no conceivable reason not to run Dig Through Time in a deck that can support it. Bob helps maintain the velocity needed to use Dig to its fullest extent, which is the main problem BUG has right now.

I am not sure if I really need both. I feel stronger committing to a single plan. I also feel like 2 of either is close to the right number. Regardless, I am going to try cutting the pierce to 2 and running one dig with the bobs and see how it goes!

[wcm8]

Assuming DTT were banned with the release of BFZ, has anyone considered using Painful Truths? It can't be Pyroblasted and ignores graveyard hate. DRS would both help cast the spell and mitigate the life loss. It just seems like this card could potentially be a powerful component of a midrange BUG list.

[wnorris]

Assuming DTT were banned with the release of BFZ, has anyone considered using Painful Truths? It can't be Pyroblasted and ignores graveyard hate. DRS would both help cast the spell and mitigate the life loss. It just seems like this card could potentially be a powerful component of a midrange BUG list.

I feel like Dark Confidant would be a better option. I like the body and the continued draw.

[TLK]

Placed third in a GPT yesterday. The 2x Dark Confidant were really good imo, other than flipping a FoW three times against Elves. Speaking of Elves, was I just unlucky or does anyone else have trouble with them?

[btm10]

Assuming DTT were banned with the release of BFZ, has anyone considered using Painful Truths? It can't be Pyroblasted and ignores graveyard hate. DRS would both help cast the spell and mitigate the life loss. It just seems like this card could potentially be a powerful component of a midrange BUG list.

If Night's Whisper didn't exist, I'd agree that it's worth looking at. But the gap between a two mana spell and a three mana spell is so large I don't think the (potential) extra card offsets the extra mana and the extra life. I actually think that Grixis or Esper might try to pull Night's Whisper in if Dig gets banned.


Placed third in a GPT yesterday. The 2x Dark Confidant were really good imo, other than flipping a FoW three times against Elves. Speaking of Elves, was I just unlucky or does anyone else have trouble with them?

In my experience it's not a great matchup. The more removal you have postboard, the better it is, but I've found that game 1 is significantly in their favor most of the time.

[KobeBryan]

Assuming DTT were banned with the release of BFZ, has anyone considered using Painful Truths? It can't be Pyroblasted and ignores graveyard hate. DRS would both help cast the spell and mitigate the life loss. It just seems like this card could potentially be a powerful component of a midrange BUG list.

I rather just continuously draw. And you tap out at 3 mana.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'd be excited that merfolk would again be less relevant. Honestly, I would love DTT to be banned. I think overall it would be good for this deck.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[wcm8]

If Night's Whisper didn't exist, I'd agree that it's worth looking at.

So the thing is, 3 for 1 is pretty huge in comparison to 2 for 1. Also, I realize there is a similar card in Blue that says essentially, 'Draw 3, discard 1 land' and maybe that's worth considering as well.

I just think that 1 or 2 copies of a draw 3 spell like this would be a good replacement for DTT, which I think is fairly likely to be banned. BUG just seems like the best candidate to run Painful Truths as a consistent Draw 3 for 3.

Then again, for 1 more mana you could just run Jace... It's all dependent on what the format ends up looking like with the updated B/R list with BFZ release.

[Whitefaces]

So the thing is, 3 for 1 is pretty huge in comparison to 2 for 1. Also, I realize there is a similar card in Blue that says essentially, 'Draw 3, discard 1 land' and maybe that's worth considering as well.

I just think that 1 or 2 copies of a draw 3 spell like this would be a good replacement for DTT, which I think is fairly likely to be banned. BUG just seems like the best candidate to run Painful Truths as a consistent Draw 3 for 3.

Then again, for 1 more mana you could just run Jace... It's all dependent on what the format ends up looking like with the updated B/R list with BFZ release.

This is a tempo deck, with daze, paying three mana for card draw just isn't anywhere near playability.

And lots of TA builds aren't even running DTT. A ban would be great for this deck.

[jim111589]

Yea it's seems like people forget that we have access to dark confidant, which is arguably better for this deck then DTT

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[TLK]

Can anyone comment on Winter Orb in the board? It seems in my match against Miracles at the GPT (in which we went to a draw), it would've been amazing.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play it. It's good against MUD, Miracles, Infect, and lands.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[TLK]

Just 1 in the board or more? I can see it being really effective.

[Whitefaces]

I'm currently running two, it's been fantastic so far. Makes your Pierces/Flusters/Dazes real cards in the mid to late game should it get to that.

[btm10]

I ran 1 in my board at SCG DC. It's great against Miracles, Grixis, and any other midrange, control or Prison deck. Also great against Lands.

[TLK]

Awesome. Thanks guys! Gonna go ahead and make that addition.

[btm10]

So the thing is, 3 for 1 is pretty huge in comparison to 2 for 1. Also, I realize there is a similar card in Blue that says essentially, 'Draw 3, discard 1 land' and maybe that's worth considering as well.

I just think that 1 or 2 copies of a draw 3 spell like this would be a good replacement for DTT, which I think is fairly likely to be banned. BUG just seems like the best candidate to run Painful Truths as a consistent Draw 3 for 3.

Then again, for 1 more mana you could just run Jace... It's all dependent on what the format ends up looking like with the updated B/R list with BFZ release.

It really depends on where the meta settles. I could easily see Grixis or Esper adopting either Whisper or Truths since both Pyromancer and Mentor really need you to be able to keep cards in hand. I feel like the Sorcery speed and 3 mana kills Compulsive Research, though I could be wrong.

Also, no one mentioned the two copies of BUG Delver in the latest PIQ Top 16 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=45&t[T3]=3&start_date=2015-09-20&end_date=2015-09-20&state=WI&city=Milwaukee&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks). I'm partial to Noah Cohen's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91760), but Ned Kaida-Yip (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91754) had the higher finish. Congrats to both, and the six copies of Dig Through Time between them.

[wnorris]

It really depends on where the meta settles. I could easily see Grixis or Esper adopting either Whisper or Truths since both Pyromancer and Mentor really need you to be able to keep cards in hand. I feel like the Sorcery speed and 3 mana kills Compulsive Research, though I could be wrong.

Also, no one mentioned the two copies of BUG Delver in the latest PIQ Top 16 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=45&t[T3]=3&start_date=2015-09-20&end_date=2015-09-20&state=WI&city=Milwaukee&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks). I'm partial to Noah Cohen's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91760), but Ned Kaida-Yip (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91754) had the higher finish. Congrats to both, and the six copies of Dig Through Time between them.

I was surprised that neither lists were running Stifle. Is Team stronger adding the thoughtsieze and digs instead? I am still so torn between bob and dig, but these lists make dig sound really appealing.

[Cal]

It really depends on where the meta settles. I could easily see Grixis or Esper adopting either Whisper or Truths since both Pyromancer and Mentor really need you to be able to keep cards in hand. I feel like the Sorcery speed and 3 mana kills Compulsive Research, though I could be wrong.

Also, no one mentioned the two copies of BUG Delver in the latest PIQ Top 16 (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=45&t[T3]=3&start_date=2015-09-20&end_date=2015-09-20&state=WI&city=Milwaukee&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks). I'm partial to Noah Cohen's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91760), but Ned Kaida-Yip (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=91754) had the higher finish. Congrats to both, and the six copies of Dig Through Time between them.

Thanks you very much! I'm Ned, by the way. I rarely post here, but I try to stop in and see what tech you guys are innovating from time to time. It should be noted that Noah was x-1-1 through the swiss while I was x-1 so the difference in result is basically completely negligible. The difference in our removal suites is pretty interesting and I could easily be convinced his is better. The only thing I disagree with him on in a scrict sense is the third thoughtseize. I only ever felt like I needed 3 against combo decks out of the board. Outside of that, 2 felt completely reasonable.

Before I forget, here is what I played against.
1: Grixis tezzerret (2-0)
2: Dark Maverick (2-1)
3: U/G Cloudpost (2-1)
4: LED Dredge (2-1)
5: BUG Pod (1-2....my friend, David, crushed me and got to double draw in)
6: ANT (2-1)
7: Esper Mentor Control (2-0)

Top 8:
Quarterfinals:
Rematch against David with BUG Pod (2-0)
Semi-finals:
Matt Hoey with Elves (1-2).
I don't think I clearly punted away game three of the semis, but I do believe I played a sub-optimal line. Wish I could have taken it down for Team America. :frown:

[wnorris]

Thanks you very much! I'm Ned, by the way. I rarely post here, but I try to stop in and see what tech you guys are innovating from time to time. It should be noted that Noah was x-1-1 through the swiss while I was x-1 so the difference in result is basically completely negligible. The difference in our removal suites is pretty interesting and I could easily be convinced his is better. The only thing I disagree with him on in a scrict sense is the third thoughtseize. I only ever felt like I needed 3 against combo decks out of the board. Outside of that, 2 felt completely reasonable.

Before I forget, here is what I played against.
1: Grixis tezzerret (2-0)
2: Dark Maverick (2-1)
3: U/G Cloudpost (2-1)
4: LED Dredge (2-1)
5: BUG Pod (1-2....my friend, David, crushed me and got to double draw in)
6: ANT (2-1)
7: Esper Mentor Control (2-0)

Top 8:
Quarterfinals:
Rematch against David with BUG Pod (2-0)
Semi-finals:
Matt Hoey with Elves (1-2).
I don't think I clearly punted away game three of the semis, but I do believe I played a sub-optimal line. Wish I could have taken it down for Team America. :frown:

Did you like having the single True Name Nemisis in the board? I always feel like he performs so well when I have nothing left to do. I also would love to hear your opinion on stifle in this deck! How often was disfigure dead in hand? I've always used it in the side, but it seems pretty nice main right now.

[danpo]

Update: I replaced Divining Top with Dimir Charm in my build from last week. It was, at minimum, more fun.

I went 3-1:

1) Lost to B/W Stoneblade. I tested this matchup last week too and it's kinda rough. I think drawing Engineered Plague for spirits would help, but that did not happen. I got to use Dimir Charm on Tidehollow Sculler to get back Dimir Charm, but I think basically any time you use removal to kill something that's not Dark Confidant or like Abrupt Decay on Jitte, you're playing into their hands.

2) Beat mono-black land destruction feat. Hypnotic Spectre, Abyss, Tabernacle and Sinkhole/Rain of Tears/Icequake (Icequake!). Did you guys know Baleful Stryx is immune to The Abyss? Dropped a game to Abyssal Persecutor, so that was pretty cool, but Deathrite Shaman put in a huge amount of work in the third. I kept a six of Forest, Sea, Sea, Stryx, Stryx, Duress. T1 Duress shows me Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hypnotic Spectre, Wasteland. I took the Thoughtseize, he wastes me, I slam Forest and the Deathrite I ripped and from there trade two Stryxes for two Hippies and start holding up mana and endstep draining him for two, drawing into Dimir Charm in time to counter a subsequent Sinkhole. Get there.

I think Dimir Charm also killed a Spectre at some point in this match.

3) Beat Storm 2-0. Brainstorm was very good to me, and so was Wasteland and Meddling Mage. At some point he played Gitaxian Probe and read Dimir Charm, and after our match he told me it forced him to reconsider a line of play and hang back. No guarantee I would've handled it correctly, but if nothing else, I'm all about giving Storm chances to outplay themselves...

4) Lost game one against Omnishow.
Out: 4x Abrupt Decay, 4x Baleful Stryx, 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Bayou.
In: 1 Scrubland, 4x Meddling Mage, 2x Duress, 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Surgical.

He was playing a weird build involving postboard Monastery Mentor, Pyroblast and for some reason Underground Sea. This made Wasteland better. Drew lots of hand-hate which really shined here too. In our third game I hit Show and Tell with Surgical Extraction and he scooped.

Fun times!

[Star|Scream]

Update: I replaced Divining Top with Dimir Charm in my build from last week. It was, at minimum, more fun.

I went 3-1:

1) Lost to B/W Stoneblade. I tested this matchup last week too and it's kinda rough. I think drawing Engineered Plague for spirits would help, but that did not happen. I got to use Dimir Charm on Tidehollow Sculler to get back Dimir Charm, but I think basically any time you use removal to kill something that's not Dark Confidant or like Abrupt Decay on Jitte, you're playing into their hands.

2) Beat mono-black land destruction feat. Hypnotic Spectre, Abyss, Tabernacle and Sinkhole/Rain of Tears/Icequake (Icequake!). Did you guys know Baleful Stryx is immune to The Abyss? Dropped a game to Abyssal Persecutor, so that was pretty cool, but Deathrite Shaman put in a huge amount of work in the third. I kept a six of Forest, Sea, Sea, Stryx, Stryx, Duress. T1 Duress shows me Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Thoughtseize, Hypnotic Spectre, Wasteland. I took the Thoughtseize, he wastes me, I slam Forest and the Deathrite I ripped and from there trade two Stryxes for two Hippies and start holding up mana and endstep draining him for two, drawing into Dimir Charm in time to counter a subsequent Sinkhole. Get there.

I think Dimir Charm also killed a Spectre at some point in this match.

3) Beat Storm 2-0. Brainstorm was very good to me, and so was Wasteland and Meddling Mage. At some point he played Gitaxian Probe and read Dimir Charm, and after our match he told me it forced him to reconsider a line of play and hang back. No guarantee I would've handled it correctly, but if nothing else, I'm all about giving Storm chances to outplay themselves...

4) Lost game one against Omnishow.
Out: 4x Abrupt Decay, 4x Baleful Stryx, 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Bayou.
In: 1 Scrubland, 4x Meddling Mage, 2x Duress, 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Surgical.

He was playing a weird build involving postboard Monastery Mentor, Pyroblast and for some reason Underground Sea. This made Wasteland better. Drew lots of hand-hate which really shined here too. In our third game I hit Show and Tell with Surgical Extraction and he scooped.

Fun times!

Congrats! But are you in the right thread?

[danpo]

It's a fair question, since this thread has the word Delver in the name and I'm really closer to Shardless(-less). Y'all tell me, I guess.

[Jo4source]

hello every one i was wondering for a solution to fight off merfolk. i get wrecked every time, my board is empty because i wanted to play better b4 actually paying a entry fee. my meta is small 3-4 miracles 1 storm 1 mud 1 merfolk 1 burn 1 death and taxes 1 one omni-tell 3-5 delver variants
my list




20 LANDS


4 Wasteland



4 Verdant Catacombs



3 Polluted Delta



3 Underground Sea



3 Misty Rainforest



2 Bayou



1 Tropical Island



13 CREATURES


4 Tarmogoyf



4 Deathrite Shaman



4 Delver of Secrets






1 true name



25 INSTANTS and SORC.


4 Ponder



4 Abrupt Decay



4 Daze



4 Brainstorm



3 Hymn to Tourach



3 Force of Will



2 Thoughtseize



1 dig



2 OTHER SPELLS


2 Liliana of the Veil









I would also like to know every ones opinion of what would be the best delver variant if DIG gets banned?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

4-color will likely fall off the map competitively, as will Grixis as they will lose their edge. I thing BUG and RUG will maintain their places as the standard for delver, each being the best at what they do.

There is not much to be done about the merfolk matchup. It's just bad. You can get lucky if you play Toxic Deluge, EE, and Meekstone in the side, but mostly just stop lords and race TNNs.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!