[SCD] The Impact of Mana Confluence

[bruizar]

With another reliable 5c-card available, I am wondering if we have reached a critical point where it is possible to design a potent multicolor deck.

Here's a look at some of the cards available to us now:

5-color manabase
Pillar of the Paruns
City of Brass
Mana Confluence
Reflecting Pool
Vesuva

Cheap Wish for all sorts of spells
Glittering Wish

1 CC Multicolor spells
Deathrite Shaman
Dryad Militant
Figure of Destiny
Guttural Response
Judge’s Familiar
Nivmagus Elemental

Every weird combination of off-color multicolor spells become available. From Naya Hushblade, Vindicate, Detention Sphere, Geist of Saint Traft, Gaddock Teeg, Knight of the Reliquary, Doran, the Siege Tower, Pernicious Deed, Bloodbraid Elf, Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Gerrard's Verdict, Tidehollow Sculler, Golgari Charm, Abrupt Decay, and even some subpar counters Countersquall

Absorb, Counterflux, and many more.

What do you think? Have we reached a point where a 5 color deck can exist, or are the drawbacks of the mana base still too big?

[firebadmattgood]

What does this deck do? Why is it preferable to an existing archetype?

[rufus]

I don't think that 5c is a critical mass issue. I think 5-color version of e.g. TES decks have had showings in the past, and that there are other, more viable 5c lands like Cavern of Souls and Gemstone Mine than some of the ones you've listed.

[bruizar]

What does this deck do? Why is it preferable to an existing archetype?

Similar to artifact decks, a 5 color deck would ignore mana requirements and in a sense, treat everything as colorless. Many cards with powerful effects, but awkward color requirements have been printed in magic's history. This design space opens up once mana bases can afford to run those awkwardly costed cards. Players have been predefined to certain deck choices if they want to run certain cards (You simply don't play Geist of Saint Traft in Jund). Some of those cards could combine well if it weren't for color requirements, which someday will be a non-issue due to the printing of more and more 5 color lands with minor drawbacks. My question is, are we at that point yet? And what would be considered the most stable 5-color mana-base at this stage.

[Megadeus]

Just play 5 color aggro slivers

[uncletiggy]

5 color hate bears? Meddling mage gaddock teeg thalia sculler pridemage bob deathrite decay delver good stuff.hodgepodge? No clue

[TsumiBand]

For some reason I was thinking about this during the just-over-freezing bike to work today.

It would be randomly interesting to see if a "Domain Staples" had any weight in the format. Some junk like

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 - 4 rad equipments
some lnumber of lands


Unfortunately I think this is a good way to highlight just how much disparity there is between the colors, or maybe I just think of different go-to cards when I think about Magic cards than good players. I didn't think of a reasonable Red creature that wasn't better in a Goblin deck, and the majority of good creatures made me want to just throw out the Rakdos colors and make Bant Stoneforge stuff. Meh.

Arguably if you're just going hybrid instead of a 'purer' multicolor approach, you don't need nearly as much mana fixing as Mana Confluence provides.

[(nameless one)]

Just play 5 color aggro slivers

This or play Humans like in Vintage

[nedleeds]

This or play Humans like in Vintage

Been doing this for like since Thalia and Cavern in Legacy. Mana Confluence doesn't make much impact, City wasn't even needed before once Cavern got printed. Mana Confluence might impact budget as you could ditch the fetch/beta dual interaction and just run a cheaper all rainbow (but painful) base.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fdg-QdcmEfo/U1ApGp8KlBI/AAAAAAAADGY/l1ri7u01Nww/w1113-h666-no/IMAG1251.jpg

[Captain Hammer]

http://mythicspoiler.com/dgm/cards/ralzarek.jpg

[(nameless one)]

Been doing this for like since Thalia and Cavern in Legacy. Mana Confluence doesn't make much impact, City wasn't even needed before once Cavern got printed. Mana Confluence might impact budget as you could ditch the fetch/beta dual interaction and just run a cheaper all rainbow (but painful) base.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fdg-QdcmEfo/U1ApGp8KlBI/AAAAAAAADGY/l1ri7u01Nww/w1113-h666-no/IMAG1251.jpg

I'm thinking of the Huntsmaster/Bob/Imperial Recruiter version. That just looks like White Trash.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't think that "Bob, Goyf, DRS" approach is that good, esp. when DRS won't have anything to eat in his/her own gy.
There are lots of powerful rainbow spells, yet they are... rainbow, and thus see little play. You want to play something special, imho.


Charming the Snake
20 rainbow lands

4 some acceleration
8 some control (removal and discard?)
4 some search
20 Legendary Dragon Charms
8 Ultimates


Or alternativelly:

20 rainbow lands
your 40 favourite mutlicolored spells no one ever heard about.


But I guess the only real impact the card would have is the price drop of Tarnished Citadel, which might be already seen on MKM.

[YamiJoey]

Or alternativelly:

20 rainbow lands
your 40 favourite mutlicolored spells no one ever heard about.

How is this not in DTB right now?

This card replaced CoB in stuff like TES and Dredge. That's all it does. In Modern CoB is better in ANC, this is still better in Griselbanned.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How is this not in DTB right now?

You must wait for the next DTB update... :tongue:
I don't know, it wasn't me who started the whole idea of rainbow deck. Also, I'm not the greatest fan of brewing. But I still think that playing 20 EDL Charms plus the corresponding Ultimata would be hilarious.

[bruizar]

You must wait for the next DTB update... :tongue:
I don't know, it wasn't me who started the whole idea of rainbow deck. Also, I'm not the greatest fan of brewing. But I still think that playing 20 EDL Charms plus the corresponding Ultimata would be hilarious.

Heh. Here are all the charms that have a counterspell attached to it. Too bad you can only select 1 mode from the 3 CC ones.. Most of them double as removal.

http://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/PLS/en/nonfoil/DromarsCharm.jpghttp://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/ALA/en/nonfoil/BantCharm.jpghttp://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/PLC/en/nonfoil/DawnCharm.jpghttp://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/GTC/en/nonfoil/DimirCharm.jpghttp://8e8460c4912582c4e519-11fcbfd88ed5b90cfb46edba899033c9.r65.cf1.rackcdn.com/sales/cardscans/MTG/IVG/en/nonfoil/IzzetCharm.jpg

Then, there's also Lightning Helix and the split cards.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Heh. Here are all the charms that have a counterspell attached to it. Too bad you can only select 1 mode from the 3 CC ones.. Most of them double as removal.

The exact next things coming to mind the exact next second you mentioned that there's only one mode to choose is the cycle of Commands or anything similar.

[bruizar]

I'll tell you one thing, a deck like that will be pretty difficult to pilot since you'll have so many lines of play to keep in mind.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'll tell you one thing, a deck like that will be pretty difficult to pilot since you'll have so many lines of play to keep in mind.

Yes.

I think one should add the best planeswalkers into the mix (and some signets) to make it even more crazy. Some kind of creature control tools (Humility, Wog, maybe StP for the initial stages), then signets to ramp into the cmc 4+ spells, then Charms, Ultimates and PWs for the win against control. Purely "I lose to combo" kind of deck, but it may be funny. There's that 15 additional cards to fight the combo, except you'll use Glittering Wish to further the 5color theme.
Also, if anyone ever builds this, it must use Identity Crisis.

[bruizar]

Yes.

I think one should add the best planeswalkers into the mix (and some signets) to make it even more crazy. Some kind of creature control tools (Humility, Wog, maybe StP for the initial stages), then signets to ramp into the cmc 4+ spells, then Charms, Ultimates and PWs for the win against control. Purely "I lose to combo" kind of deck, but it may be funny. There's that 15 additional cards to fight the combo, except you'll use Glittering Wish to further the 5color theme.
Also, if anyone ever builds this, it must use Identity Crisis.

I think I'd run Firespout and Supreme Verdict as sweepers. Also, if you use Glittering Wish you can just keep 1 ultimatum in the sideboard if you really want to go for such shenanigans.

[bruizar]

Perhaps some variation of this core.

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Firespout
4 Izzet Charm
4 Dimir Charm
2 Bant Charm
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Guttural Response
4 True-name Nemesis
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage


Remove something for some planes walkers.

Most of your removal can't be countered (Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdict), so you can sandbag all your Counterspells for their business. In case anything gets through, you can deal with it since 19 cards are creature removal cards and 19 cards are some variation of counterspell.

[Megadeus]

The issue I see is in a deck with 8 lands that ping you, life total gets low fast. I think you'd be forced to play kitchen finks or something. Hell maybe even something slow like Sun droplet.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

I don't think this will make much of an impact. I really can't see new archetypes coming from this. Besides Silvers, Humans, and Allies, what really benefits from 5c?

[TsumiBand]

Besides Silvers, Humans, and Allies, what really benefits from 5c?

Tight Sight

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Tokugawa]

Besides Silvers, Humans, and Allies, what really benefits from 5c?

Blood Moon.:tongue:

When more people try a "greedy" manabase, moon would become more powerful.

[bruizar]

The issue I see is in a deck with 8 lands that ping you, life total gets low fast. I think you'd be forced to play kitchen finks or something. Hell maybe even something slow like Sun droplet.

I think this is a correct assessment and also why I am wondering what the best 5 color mana base is that we can come up with now. Rhox War Monk and Kitchen Finks are options, and so Umezawa's Jitte and Stoneforge Mystic, although this may still not be enough. Cavern of Souls is one of the best lands you can play but it does require you to play quiet a bunch of creatures (the multicolor spells, such as charms or abrupt decay often don't require colorless mana). That said, I would be very stoked to play with Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdict in the same deck.

Pillar of the Paruns, Reflecting Pool, Cavern of Souls and Vesuva at least don't self-inflict damage, but that means you need to run at least a good density of multicolor cards, creatures cards, and multicolor creature cards. In addition, you can't run too many Pools and Vesuva's because Wasteland can shut you out like that. The entire deck 'combos' with Chrome Mox, but to offset the card disadvantage, especially in a world with Abrupt Decays, there must be a proper draw engine for the deck first. One such card could be Guided Passage. Another method of generating card advantage would be by using Waterfalls!' cascade guys Bloodbraid Elf and Shardless Agent, but have access to 5 colors instead of just 3.


Blood Moon.:tongue:

When more people try a "greedy" manabase, moon would become more powerful.

That would definitely be the weak spot of this deck.

[nedleeds]

I'm thinking of the Huntsmaster/Bob/Imperial Recruiter version. That just looks like White Trash.

4 x bobs in there, and 2 x ophiomancers. My only red was sideboard and to activate Guildmage ... Huntmaster is definately worth a run, Recruiter is really slow but if you get your Vial to 3 he's interesting. Red in humans gets you some good artifact hosers: Vithian Renegades / Manic Vandal and Hammer Mage. It gets you some 'pingers': Ghitu Slinger, Lavamancer and Granger Mages ping ability.

[bruizar]

4 x bobs in there, and 2 x ophiomancers. My only red was sideboard and to activate Guildmage ... Huntmaster is definately worth a run, Recruiter is really slow but if you get your Vial to 3 he's interesting. Red in humans gets you some good artifact hosers: Vithian Renegades / Manic Vandal and Hammer Mage. It gets you some 'pingers': Ghitu Slinger, Lavamancer and Granger Mages ping ability.

Could you, for reference, post the vintage humans list that you mentioned?

[FTW]

In a 5cc manabase with all rainbow lands, my first 4 cards would be Suppression Field.

"Opponents can't play lands" seems strong.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Every set Death's Shadow gets more and more powerful... hehehe

Mana Confluence is a huge asset to a Death's Shadow deck.

[nedleeds]

Could you, for reference, post the vintage humans list that you mentioned?

The pic above is from Legacy. I think the other guy mentioned vintage humans. There are tons of lists for 5c humans on the mana drain and tc decks.

[ivanpei]

The main issue is losing the brainstorm-fetchland interaction which is the most powerful effect on legacy.

On the other hand I hope it makes 5c good stuff somewhat decent so that more people can play the format without losing an arm and a leg.

I believe some sort of 5c aggro is viable because you have city of brass, mana confluence, Gemstone mine, cavern and the land that taps for all colours for creatures only. It's less good in control because the damage piles up quickly.

Another deck that gains would be 5c storm that doesn't care about life. Maybe the fetchland plus 5c hybrid manabase can be ditched for a faster build with more 5c lands. Then again not having a shuffle effect for brainstorm sucks.

[apple713]

This card will have little impact on legacy.

I dont even see why its value is so high presell. Modern has cob and standard already has a lot of mana fixing.

[TsumiBand]

This card will have little impact on legacy.

I dont even see why its value is so high presell. Modern has cob and standard already has a lot of mana fixing.

CoB is pretty well worse under most reasonably competitive situations though. A minor example; Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth. With Mana Confluence, it can painlessly tap for B. With CoB, you still take damage.

Also it has a pretty sizeable plot in the union of formats that like lots of diverse ways to fix mana. Its CoB 2 in EDH, it combos with Reflecting Pool, it subs for shocks in a format without fetches, etc.

It might just be a fad. I don't think so, however.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Dark Ritual]

CoB is pretty well worse under most reasonably competitive situations though. A minor example; Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth. With Mana Confluence, it can painlessly tap for B. With CoB, you still take damage.

Also it has a pretty sizeable plot in the union of formats that like lots of diverse ways to fix mana. Its CoB 2 in EDH, it combos with Reflecting Pool, it subs for shocks in a format without fetches, etc.

It might just be a fad. I don't think so, however.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Yes, city of brass is a tiny bit worse in vintage and legacy than confluence. City of brass has virtually no drawbacks in modern like port and tangle wire but it see's close to no play there because it isn't that good. Confluence is a tiny bit nicer with urborg there. But that isn't exactly a dealbreaker. In standard aggro loves it but nothing else does as control decks have good enough fixing between 12 shocklands and 12 scrylands if they're esper and if they're just 2 color they don't need this over a basic land.

As for a deck running a critical mass of rainbow lands in legacy like 5c goodstuff? Quite skeptical of it working. Wasteland has always stopped this from working in the past. And 8 city of brass effects is quite hard on the life total so you have to auto include lightning helix, which is actually just gain 1 life when cast off two cities.

[TsumiBand]

You say 'auto-include Lightning Helix' like it's a bad thing.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[FTW]

The main issue is losing the brainstorm-fetchland interaction which is the most powerful effect on legacy.

This. IMO the best way to compensate for this is to run Leonin Arbiter and/or Suppression Field to screw up every single other person's fetchland-Brainstorm interactions.

Why do people not like Suppression Field? Even if opponent gets to 2 mana first, it basically reads "whenever an opponent plays a fetchland, put a copy of Time Walk on the stack under your control". Among seriously shutting down DRS, Mom, Lavamancer, Top shenanigans, Brainstorm shenanigans, Aether Vial aggro, Elves.deck, equipment costs, Planeswalkers, Rishadan Port (one of the best cards against City of Brass decks), Wasteland, etc. Seems really good if your deck is mostly charm spells and counterspells and dumb beaters.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

In this 5c Good Stuff, you'd need Rhox War Monk.

edit: I think for a deck like this (eight cities), one of the possible tactics is high life gain deck. RWM, Finks, 4 Life Elephant, Absorb, some charm, etc. Might be funny. Powerful? I don't think so, but definitely funny.

[HammafistRoob]

Can people please stop comparing things to Timewalk?

[FTW]

Can people please stop comparing things to Timewalk?

Hammerfist Giant against a field of 4/4s is like a Timewalk!

[HammafistRoob]

Meh, I thinks it's closer to a Time Stretch at that point :p

[Barook]

Sure, brewing is fun, but how would 5C good stuff be better than Deathblade, which is already 4C good stuff while cutting red, because REB/Bolt is too shitty to justify the inclusion of a 5th color?