Banned and Restricted list update

[ESG]

Announcement date: April 28, 2014

Standard, Modern, Extended, Legacy, Vintage:
No changes


http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/297


I'm disappointed with this outcome, but it's basically what I was expecting, so I'm not surprised.

[Dzra]

I'm disappointed with this outcome, but it's basically what I was expecting, so I'm not surprised.

I know, right? Sleight of Hand is just asking for it.

[Megadeus]

Really would like to see an unban or two...

[Dice_Box]

Hands up anyone who is legitimately surprised by this announcement. *Crosses arms*

[Lemnear]

Hands up anyone who is legitimately surprised by this announcement. *Crosses arms*

Statistically, the most changes made during the last 12 years were within the June and September updates (aka not between blocks) so I had no hope for the one today anyways

[HSCK]

What really needed to be changed? 14 decks are taking up between 3% and 9% of the meta. When's the last time the 14 most popular decks in Legacy only composed 65% of all decks placing?

[Lemnear]

What really needed to be changed? 14 decks are taking up between 3% and 9% of the meta. When's the last time the 14 most popular decks in Legacy only composed 65% of all decks placing?

What about taking all decks into account that blend over from Delver into SFM and look at their total %? It hilarious to claim Esperblade and Deathblade independant decks

[HSCK]

One deck has DRS and one deck runs sweepers. TA and RUG Delver aren't really mirrors of each other either are they? Same with UWR Delver. We don't group TES and ANT together, but grouping any deck with Delver together is okay? All SFM decks are the same too?

[bakofried]

If blue based Delver wasn't so oppressive in the US tournament circuit, it would be different. As is, the "blue shell" is coalescing more and more into Delver centric lists.

[Blastoderm]

If blue based Delver wasn't so oppressive in the US tournament circuit, it would be different. As is, the "blue shell" is coalescing more and more into Delver centric lists.

It would be kind of hilarious if Delver was banned. I would love to see all the butthurt.

[Higgs]

One deck has DRS and one deck runs sweepers. TA and RUG Delver aren't really mirrors of each other either are they? Same with UWR Delver. We don't group TES and ANT together, but grouping any deck with Delver together is okay? All SFM decks are the same too?

In my view the difference between Deathblade and Esperblade is as minute as the difference between Snapcaster Miracles and RiP Miracles. Maybe less. Same strategy, slightly different tactics. Again in my view a lot of the Legacy decks seem to be slight variations of each other, the only differences being tactical differences/preferences which manifest themselves as different color splashes. This is especially present in Delver decks and blue-based SFM decks because of ease of splashability (not sure if this is a word) with these core strategies and cards in them. Although I occasionally play with these decks myself I would have expected (wished) banhammer to swing towards Delver, SFM or TNN.

[Megadeus]

I think of all those cards, delver is the worst. The threat that it brings to the table is very strong. Stone forge is extremely powerful as well, however, I think that stone forge has a more positive impact by allowing weenie decks with little shitty men to not be completely out classed by a single tarmogoyf or something. Also while the card isn't extremely difficult to play, at the very least, it presents a few options of how to proceed with your game plan which is somewhat skill testing

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think of all those cards, delver is the worst. The threat that it brings to the table is very strong. Stone forge is extremely powerful as well, however, I think that stone forge has a more positive impact by allowing weenie decks with little shitty men to not be completely out classed by a single tarmogoyf or something. Also while the card isn't extremely difficult to play, at the very least, it presents a few options of how to proceed with your game plan which is somewhat skill testing

To be honest, at least Delver promotes several different types of strategies as opposed to (and I can't believe I'm saying this after arguing for both to stay unbanned) SFM+TNN. Not saying it isn't strong (lightning bolt on an evasive stick? yeah, nothing strong about that >_>)

RUG, BUG, UWR, and UR Delver all play fairly different from each other as their common core (Delver+Force of Will+Daze+Brainstorm) isn't as demanding in terms of deck design as, say TNN+SFM Decks (SFM+TNN+Equipment+Force of Will+Brainstorm+other control elements), which all play fairly similarly in the sense that if you equip an equipment to TNN, chances are likely you will win.

[Lemnear]

One deck has DRS and one deck runs sweepers. TA and RUG Delver aren't really mirrors of each other either are they? Same with UWR Delver. We don't group TES and ANT together, but grouping any deck with Delver together is okay? All SFM decks are the same too?

Heck, I swear ANT and TES are grouped together in statistics (some prople can't even tell the difference at all). Just look at SCG or mtgtop8.

It makes no sense to finely differ the SFM/Delver archetypes then, which are often more similar than storm variants (grouping storm together is kinda ok for me). Getting split up statistics just because you run SCM and Lingering souls instead of DRS and TNN is lying in regards of format diversity and performance. The strategy and core is exactly the same, you just make adjustments to playstyle and expected metagame ... basically the same way ANT and TES work, thus getting grouped together.

If you group together all variants in direction of DRS+Delver and another one with SFM+Delver you get a much more acurate image of the metagame. Higgs made a nice point about the diversity- & name-madness in regards to miracles. Why do people think they created something new by just switching 1-2 playsets within a working core?


Edit: There is no strategic variance within Delver. Just play Delver and throw all your disruption to your opponents head while riding the delver to victory

Edit 2: the Delver core is Delver+Brainstorm+Ponder+Daze+FoW+Wasteland aka 24/60 cards fix, add ~16 lands and have 40/60. From this point on you can splash up to 2 colors for additional threats (SFM, Goyf, TNN) or removal (Bolts, StoP, Disfigure) and your deck is finished

[Megadeus]

Not every stones forge deck is playing TNN, or even blue for that matter.

[iamajellydonut]

Wait, did Delver start comprising 70% of the meta when I wasn't looking?

[Barook]

I think of all those cards, delver is the worst. The threat that it brings to the table is very strong. Stone forge is extremely powerful as well, however, I think that stone forge has a more positive impact by allowing weenie decks with little shitty men to not be completely out classed by a single tarmogoyf or something. Also while the card isn't extremely difficult to play, at the very least, it presents a few options of how to proceed with your game plan which is somewhat skill testing
TNN is the worst offender since it denies you most basic interactions in Magic.

What I dislike about Delver is how heavy they're favored when they're on the play. Early double Delver combined with denial is such a beating when you're behind mana-wise.

While SFM is also very powerful, it didn't cause permanent format shifts towards blue like TNN and especially Delver did.

Imho, Delver is the starting point where the format went into a wrong, overall less fun direction.

But what would happen if Delver was suddenly gone? Which decks would benefit from it, which decks would suffer (aside from Delver decks)? Wanting Delver gone is one thing, but would it improve the format?

[Higgs]

Not every stones forge deck is playing TNN, or even blue for that matter.

Yes, my categorization was basically for blue-based SFM decks.
Edit: Quote added because too late to reply.

[rufus]

...
Imho, Delver is the starting point where the format went into a wrong, overall less fun direction.
...

It seems like everything that's wrong with Black Vise is also wrong with delver (and there are other issues that apply just to delver.)

[twndomn]

Wizards gave the middle finger to all those ridiculous clowns waving the unban survival flag. :laugh: No news is good news.

[nedleeds]

Delver is a world more oppressive than TNN. Black Vise is a really really bad Delver. Delver being gone would make some other aggressive creatures viable again, right now he so far outclasses every other aggro one drop it's sad. Many beards cite Abrupt Decay as a clear answer to it, but that assumes you can get a G and B while not getting stifled / wasted / hymned ... which while straight forward to do sometimes isn't viable on the draw vs. a natural flipped delver you might be at 9 before you even put the decay on the stack. Also it's telling that the best Abrupt Decay playing deck, also plays the stupid fucking delver.

[morgan_coke]

I'd like to see Delver go away simply because Blue shouldn't have the most aggressive one drop. Blue should have the least aggressive/pushed creatures. Instead lately we've been seeing the opposite of that trend. I mean, between Delver, Snapcaster, Clique, and TNN, blue doesn't splash for creatures as much anymore as it does for removal, disruption, and burn. Which is just stupid. And kind of opposed the whole color wheel concept of blue as the "mind" color.

[iamajellydonut]

I'd like to see Delver go away simply because Blue shouldn't have the most aggressive one drop. Blue should have the least aggressive/pushed creatures. Instead lately we've been seeing the opposite of that trend. I mean, between Delver, Snapcaster, Clique, and TNN, blue doesn't splash for creatures as much anymore as it does for removal, disruption, and burn. Which is just stupid. And kind of opposed the whole color wheel concept of blue as the "mind" color.

And what if Delver of Secrets were green or red? RUG and BUG and everything inbetween would still be pretty much the exact same decks. Blue doesn't have claim to either the most aggressive one drop or even the best one drop. The former is taken by numerous cards, and the latter is championed by Deathrite Shaman.

Fact of the matter is that blue has the best shell. We know. Get over it. It's the reason blue lands dwarf all else in terms of value, and it's been this way for literally decades.

[nedleeds]

It's an idiotic card regardless of color, but making it blue doesn't hurt. The xUG / Uwr decks still play no basics and cast it off a dual so if it were B or G or R it might not make much of a difference. Maybe one could argue that making it blue makes it more vulnerable (e.g. red blast). It's just a bad card for diversity in legacy, it synergizes too well with cards that are already at the top of the power curve (Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze, Fetchlands).

I would have liked to see

Black Vise Unbanned
Mind Twist Unbanned

for a start and see where that goes ... 2 decent cards pointing in opposite directions, after they had zero impact for 6 months because the holy grail of Brainstorm/Delver/Ponder/ForceOfWill is worlds better then them they would join Land Tax as unbanned and forgotten and the DCI could unban some more cards that can't cope with tempo / delver decks.

[HSCK]

I don't think it's a coincidence that RUG delver's smaller share of the meta the past 5-6 months goes hand in hand with an increase of rogue strategies doing well. I agree Delver is much more meta defining than TNN.

[twndomn]

I'd like to see Delver go away simply because Blue shouldn't have the most aggressive one drop. Blue should have the least aggressive/pushed creatures. Instead lately we've been seeing the opposite of that trend. I mean, between Delver, Snapcaster, Clique, and TNN, blue doesn't splash for creatures as much anymore as it does for removal, disruption, and burn. Which is just stupid. And kind of opposed the whole color wheel concept of blue as the "mind" color.

Are you hating on Blue or hating on Tempo strategy or both? Without Delver, RUG will still have Mongoose and Goyf. It'll probably replace Delver with some 1 drops. Seriously, people need to stop confusing between Color and Strategy.

Tempo strategy, let it be whatever combination of colors, will ALWAYS be there. It will Always have Daze, FoW, and Brainstorm as long as all 3 are legal. Don't be hating Delver the card, because you dislike Tempo strategy. Yes, I get it, Tempo decks are everywhere in United States and they seem to take down trophies. Is that because the lack of skilled pilots? or Is that because a banning/unbanning would be required to change the current meta?

[Zombie]

Black Vise Unbanned

Vise gives nothing positive to the format and just adds more games that are just torture to play. Power level wise it's fine, maybe. But I'd rather keep it out, there's 0% chance of the format becoming better if it was unbanned, but a nonzero chance of it becoming worse.

[morgan_coke]

I don't have a problem with Tempo strategies. And yes, to answer an earlier question about my post, I would be much happier if Delver was red (it doesn't really fit in white). The tempo shell is fine, but having to splash for it's creatures makes the deck more limited and vulnerable than if it's just splashing for its disruption.

For example, if Delver was Red, and you accept the general thought that 3 colors is max for tempo, RUG would have the best creature base, while BUG would have better removal and disruption, but at the expense of better dudes.

TNN should have absolutely been White, and Delver and Snapcaster should have been Red. Change the colors of those cards and tempo decks still exist, but the overall format is a much more interesting place, and the decks that play the different creatures are significantly different from each other. Whereas now, with the best creatures all being Blue, the tempo shell now provides beats, free counters, and selection, which makes every tempo shell deck significantly more similar to each other and the overall meta less diverse and interesting.

That's why Delver and TNN should get banhammered. Because they're the wrong color and they make the game more similar than it should be. At the current rate, there will eventually be a "the Deck" for legacy based around the blue tempo shell. We're getting pretty close to that already, and I'm really, really not a fan.

[Zombie]

I don't have a problem with Tempo strategies. And yes, to answer an earlier question about my post, I would be much happier if Delver was red (it doesn't really fit in white). The tempo shell is fine, but having to splash for it's creatures makes the deck more limited and vulnerable than if it's just splashing for its disruption.

For example, if Delver was Red, and you accept the general thought that 3 colors is max for tempo, RUG would have the best creature base, while BUG would have better removal and disruption, but at the expense of better dudes.

TNN should have absolutely never been printed, and Delver and Snapcaster should have been Red. Change the colors of those cards and tempo decks still exist, but the overall format is a much more interesting place, and the decks that play the different creatures are significantly different from each other. Whereas now, with the best creatures all being Blue, the tempo shell now provides beats, free counters, and selection, which makes every tempo shell deck significantly more similar to each other and the overall meta less diverse and interesting.

That's why Delver and TNN should get banhammered. Because they're the wrong color and they make the game more similar than it should be. At the current rate, there will eventually be a "the Deck" for legacy based around the blue tempo shell. We're getting pretty close to that already, and I'm really, really not a fan.

FTFY

I'd like to note here that basically all non-Delver creatures played in RUG and BUG are nonblue.

[twndomn]

I don't have a problem with Tempo strategies. And yes, to answer an earlier question about my post, I would be much happier if Delver was red (it doesn't really fit in white). The tempo shell is fine, but having to splash for it's creatures makes the deck more limited and vulnerable than if it's just splashing for its disruption.

That's why Delver and TNN should get banhammered. Because they're the wrong color and they make the game more similar than it should be. At the current rate, there will eventually be a "the Deck" for legacy based around the blue tempo shell. We're getting pretty close to that already, and I'm really, really not a fan.

Even if Delver and TNN are your "correct" color, Tempo strategies will Still be as Dominant as they are today. Even if you change color, the blue Tempo shell is Still as popular as they are today. You are overly exaggerating on the "incorrect color" factor. The truth is, tempo strategy cannot be stopped, not by banning Delver, not by banning TNN. If you ban Delver, people will just move to DRS/Lavamancer/Guide/Mongoose, because those're the next best 1 drop. The blue tempo shell will always be with Legacy, unless Wizard bans Brainstorm.

If your comprehension of Legacy is centered around "the deck" as the blue tempo shell, then you haven't been enlightened yet.

[morgan_coke]

Twndomn,

You're really misrepresenting my position in order to have the argument you want instead of the one you have. Tempo is a valuable part of the Legacy meta, for one thing it really helps to keep combo decks more honest.

The problem with all of the best creatures in the format being blue is that it pushes the tempo shell in such a way that it significantly limits format diversity.

If Delver was Red and TNN was White, Zoo might run both of them, while a Tempo deck would have to pick and choose which one(s) it wanted, and if tempo ran both, said deck would be locked out of 'Goyf/TS/Bob/AD etc. That is a limiting choice on deck construction and format composition. When Delver and TNN are both blue, it limits the power of non-blue decks (when was the last time you saw a non-blue aggro deck?) while simultaneously pushing the entire format towards sameness and a universal Tempo shell.

I'm old enough to remember the last time Blue had every meaningful color pie ability. It sucked. The recent pushing of blue creatures by WotC is reaching the critical mass of having the same effect again. An entire day of Blue Tempo Shell vs. Combo vs. Mirror Matches isn't really anyone's idea of a good time. That's why I wish that WotC would a)stop printing overpowered blue creatures, and b)ban delver and TNN, and take a close look at Clique and Snapcaster.

That would allow good blue tempo shells to exist without crowding other decks out of the format.

[clavio]

Vise gives nothing positive to the format and just adds more games that are just torture to play. Power level wise it's fine, maybe. But I'd rather keep it out, there's 0% chance of the format becoming better if it was unbanned, but a nonzero chance of it becoming worse.

That's totally subjective

[iamajellydonut]

(when was the last time you saw a non-blue aggro deck?)

Is this a serious question?

[clavio]

Is this a serious question?

Assuming Elves isn't aggro, it's been a while

[nedleeds]

delver gives nothing positive to the format and just adds more games that are just torture to play.

ftfy.

[bakofried]

It should be noted that classifying decks like Death and Taxes as "aggro" doesn't really fit, so yes, it's been awhile since I've seen aggro do well.

[twndomn]

The problem with all of the best creatures in the format being blue is that it pushes the tempo shell in such a way that it significantly limits format diversity.

If Delver was Red and TNN was White, Zoo might run both of them, while a Tempo deck would have to pick and choose which one(s) it wanted, and if tempo ran both, said deck would be locked out of 'Goyf/TS/Bob/AD etc. That is a limiting choice on deck construction and format composition. When Delver and TNN are both blue, it limits the power of non-blue decks (when was the last time you saw a non-blue aggro deck?) while simultaneously pushing the entire format towards sameness and a universal Tempo shell.

I'm old enough to remember the last time Blue had every meaningful color pie ability. It sucked. The recent pushing of blue creatures by WotC is reaching the critical mass of having the same effect again. An entire day of Blue Tempo Shell vs. Combo vs. Mirror Matches isn't really anyone's idea of a good time. That's why I wish that WotC would a)stop printing overpowered blue creatures, and b)ban delver and TNN, and take a close look at Clique and Snapcaster.

That would allow good blue tempo shells to exist without crowding other decks out of the format.

Above is wrong in so many levels, allow me to correct some of them.

The best creatures of Legacy don't have to be blue. You are being subjective. I can argue that best creature of the format can be Thalia, which is not Blue.

Oh, I didn't know that having 2 creatures as Blue would push entire Legacy toward a Tempo sell. Are you kidding me? In a format where Dredge, Show and Tell, Storm, Painter... all the decks that can ignore creatures all together, you are on a witch-hunt of these 2 creatures might doom the format? Sure, if you're a creature Beatdown type of players, you might be concerned that Tempo/Aggro strategy are converging toward the same shell. However, it's also possible that the lack of skilled pilots in your local LGS shaping your opinion on the format overall. I've seen very competent Goblin players, taking victories from TNN and Delver players like nothing. Yes, Goblin Top 8 in SCG: ATL this year.

Besides, can you for a minute think outside of box, be a little considerate on the players who don't like to play creatures? Last time I check, Legacy is not about Blue Tempo vs Combo vs Mirror, Control decks like Miracles did fairly well. Loam decks actually are doing better ever since TNN.

Please don't exaggerate on the influence of those 2 creatures. They are good, but don't jump to the conclusion on the format as a whole. I tolerate your biased opinion on what should be banned, but you're wrong on several fronts regarding the state of this format.

[iamajellydonut]

It should be noted that classifying decks like Death and Taxes as "aggro" doesn't really fit, so yes, it's been awhile since I've seen aggro do well.

The definition of "aggro" is completely relative. Delver U/x/x is "aggro". So, how do you consider 4xDelver, 4xStoneforge, 2xTrue-Name Nemesis with a few Lightning Bolts to be aggro and exempt Death and Taxes?

[bakofried]

If I reword that as "nonblue aggro,” would you quit your keyboard philosophizing?

If Death and Taxes assumes the control role in more than 50% of its matches, yeah, I'd argue it's shouldn't fit under the classical definition of aggro.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[ahg113]

The best reason for Delver and Snap Caster to be red is to push Burn.dec, a white TNN goes into Dead Guy, D'n'T, Miracles prolly, and Team Italia (which doesn't really exist, but I'd jam it). Like someone said, Delver and TNN make Zoo a thing if red and white respectively.

Done laughing? Groovy.

It's been stated that Delver, TNN and Snappy (to a lesser extent) aren't appropriate for Blue. The Blue ability to filter and counter isn't the problem, it's the blue deck being able to do everything. The protectors of Blue.dec don't see this as a problem, because they are literally having their cake and eating it too.

While some would seek to restrict some other aspects of Blue.dec, mainly the filtering/draw, that seems inappropriate because that is a Blue.dec core trait.

It basically comes down to Blue.dec being polygamist, while the rest of us are monogamist. If we're gonna swing that way, print some filter, print some stack interaction in the other colors. If we're not gonna get freaky-deaky, put some brake-pads on that runaway blue train. It started with a clear thought, but I'm rambling and this is going down the flusher.

[bakofried]

The best reason for Delver and Snap Caster to be red is to push Burn.dec, a white TNN goes into Dead Guy, D'n'T, Miracles prolly, and Team Italia (which doesn't really exist, but I'd jam it). Like someone said, Delver and TNN make Zoo a thing if red and white respectively.

Done laughing? Groovy.

It's been stated that Delver, TNN and Snappy (to a lesser extent) aren't appropriate for Blue. The Blue ability to filter and counter isn't the problem, it's the blue deck being able to do everything. The protectors of Blue.dec don't see this as a problem, because they are literally having their cake and eating it too.

While some would seek to restrict some other aspects of Blue.dec, mainly the filtering/draw, that seems inappropriate because that is a Blue.dec core trait.

It basically comes down to Blue.dec being polygamist, while the rest of us are monogamist. If we're gonna swing that way, print some filter, print some stack interaction in the other colors. If we're not gonna get freaky-deaky, put some brake-pads on that runaway blue train. It started with a clear thought, but I'm rambling and this is going down the flusher.

It's okay for blue to get freaky, but let anyone else get in on that action and all of a sudden the color pie's being violated.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Delver and Snappy being red would make them playable only of red land, surpirse, surprise. That's definitely quite different than "I fetch for w/e the blue dual comes to my hand first, Delver, go". They wouldn't feed FoW (but ok, that is a marginal affair), otoh they won't die to REB. They'll be really different card and RUG and straight UR would play them, while BUG would use different creatures, although bUrg might keep them. Format diverse, color pie saved, etc.

I dislike Delver. Yep, although I win lots of games thanks to him/it, and I don't really hate to play against the card, it's too powerful. Also, the design, the design... That's one of an awful card. I'd rather get a one mana Bird Maiden than this. It's so ugly words can't tell. What I love about RUG is the elegance of the deck, even the latest aditions (be it Spell Pierce or Forked Bolt, not to start discussion on the beautiful ZEN fetchlands) are nice and elegant. But Delver... Every time I transform it, I just... I just... no, I lack words. It's so Digimon.

I'd love to make a test with our old playgroup. I'm sure that they would accept the deck, they'd even accept the new frame, the absurdity of Goyf, the power level of cards, etc. But what they would definitely despise is Delver.

I'm not saying that DCI should kil the bug, but I'm not exactly thrilled from its pressence. Otoh, the ban might further worsen my only remaining deck, so as long as it's "play Delver or don't play at all", I'll vote against the ban.

[Megadeus]

Even if Delver and TNN are your "correct" color, Tempo strategies will Still be as Dominant as they are today. Even if you change color, the blue Tempo shell is Still as popular as they are today. You are overly exaggerating on the "incorrect color" factor. The truth is, tempo strategy cannot be stopped, not by banning Delver, not by banning TNN. If you ban Delver, people will just move to DRS/Lavamancer/Guide/Mongoose, because those're the next best 1 drop. The blue tempo shell will always be with Legacy, unless Wizard bans Brainstorm.

If your comprehension of Legacy is centered around "the deck" as the blue tempo shell, then you haven't been enlightened yet.

Sure, but think of Thresh losing their 1 drop 3 power attacker on turn 2? That makes the deck very much less aggressive than its current iteration. Yes it will still probably be a fine deck, but it is better than being on the draw, him flipping his T1 delver off of Force, and then you don't ever get a chance to deal with the delver. Grim Lavamancer is not only a full 3 turns slower (at dealing 20) but it costs thresh its GY which shrinks goose and goyfs and costs mana to activate. Please do not even attempt to compare Goblin Guide or Lavamancer to Delver.

[Ellomdian]

Always kind of sad not to see an unbanning somewhere. Then again, I realize I'm in the minority where the ban list should be a death sentence, not simply a very long exile. Also, Modern hasn't really had the opportunity to shake out since the last round, and the Spring/summer set is typically the quiet time on the list.

Having said that... At what point is it appropriate to lock this thread and force the BnR speculation back to the Demon Thread from whence it came?

I suppose the real question is when does commentary turn back into speculation :cool: - I swear I've read some of these arguments Cut and Paste from the Spec thread...

[burtonbaron62]

I really don't like Delver at all. IMHO, it is possibly worse than TNN.

First, DFC cards are dumb. I still pity that poor guy that got DQ'd on camera for having a Delver in not totally opaque sleeves. Also, they had to rewrite the card legality rules just to fit in DFCs. As soon as they were printed I was praying that none of them found a home in Legacy.

Second, Delver is really far above the curve, and blue! I mean, look at the red one drop flip dude: Reckless Waif. I am also pretty sure that Delver is the only DFC to not include a way for it to flip back.

I could go on, but...

How about:

Outta Control Blue Creature Hoser
R
Enchantment
Blue creatures get -0/-2

[Megadeus]

TNN is a dumb card that I hate playing against, but Delver is what really pushes these tempo decks over the edge. Having a man that can hit for 50% of your opponents life total by T4 all on his own while you can simply thwart any attempts to kill him for such a low investment of mana is what makes the card ridiculous.

[shrubs]

If we're gonna swing that way, print some filter, print some stack interaction in the other colors. If we're not gonna get freaky-deaky, put some brake-pads on that runaway blue train.

The catch is that they have to make these types of cards not be complete garbage. Faithless Looting is super-neato for red and all, and Maro was proud about it, but it's not enough. It's like R&D is really reserved about developing the other colors, while blue is completely unrestrained. I can't wait for a one mana blue discard spell to be printed that will top black's repertoire.

But can they take away what has already been given to us? The collective blue circlejerk would throw a holy fit if Delver/TNN/Brainstorm/etc were banned, even more than they do now.

[Nuke is Good]

Twndomn,


If Delver was Red and TNN was White, Zoo might run both of them, while a Tempo deck would have to pick and choose which one(s) it wanted, and if tempo ran both, said deck would be locked out of 'Goyf/TS/Bob/AD etc.

Oh man if Zoo was a deck again, that was a fun deck to play against then I got Punishing Jund and that wiped the floor with it.

[Lemnear]

Oh man if Zoo was a deck again, that was a fun deck to play against then I got Punishing Jund and that wiped the floor with it.

I'm a 100% sure that IF WotC would harrow the Delver-monoculture in Legacy and indeed decks like Zoo (which still lose to Batterskull), Goblins or Maverick return, we would sit here or in the B/R Thread and would hear rants about S&T + LED once more. Don't get me wrong: I dislike the monkey-gameplan of Delver on the play like the next one does.

[Purgatory]

Second, Delver is really far above the curve, and blue! I mean, look at the red one drop flip dude: Reckless Waif. I am also pretty sure that Delver is the only DFC to not include a way for it to flip back.

You are quite wrong. Generally, only the Werewolfs can transform back, the rest of the DFCs (Cloistered Youth, Bloodline Keeper, Garruk Relentless, Loyal Cathar and Elbrus, the Binding Blade to name a few) don't flip back.

I agree with you in principle, however. Delver is a lot better than TNN, though in my opinion neither is degenerate enough to be banned. Neither should probably never have seen the light of day either, for that matter, but that's an entirely different discussion.

[ESG]

Statistically, the most changes made during the last 12 years were within the June and September updates (aka not between blocks) so I had no hope for the one today anyways

Something for us to consider: Maybe WOTC's decision to move the banning announcements to correspond with the release of new sets will have the consequence of fewer bans and unbans all around. After all, introducing a bunch of new cards already has the potential to shift things, so it seems like it would give them a reason to put off making decisions.


Always kind of sad not to see an unbanning somewhere. Then again, I realize I'm in the minority where the ban list should be a death sentence, not simply a very long exile.

Personally, I would love to see a kind of "prisoner exchange" with the banned list on a yearly basis, or maybe twice a year. A format-dominating card gets banned and something comes off the banned list.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I agree with you in principle, however. Delver is a lot better than TNN, though in my opinion neither is degenerate enough to be banned. Neither should probably never have seen the light of day either, for that matter, but that's an entirely different discussion.
Delver is basically a Black Vise with an added plus of being pitchable and occasionaly sent on a blocking duty. Moreover, it's a Vise that plays well along Hymn to Tourach. Ok, dies to Bolt, I know. :smile:

If you really mean that it shouldn't have seen the light of day, I guess you sort it amongst the cards like... idk, Shahrazad, Fallen Star or Contract from Below. Because right now there are lots of pretty powerful cards on the 1,5 banlist, yet not each of them is absurd enough to warrant a stillbirth; I'd say that staying aside from the obvious Vintage-only cards like P9, LoA, Necro, DT or Tinker, then (considering Legacy power level and environment) there is no card silly enough to give it a persona non grata stamp. But this is a matter of taste, as once we'll start a discussion about the cards that are (on the edge) of being broken, lets say Skullclamp, GRecruiter, Jar, SotF, opinions will differ.

So, speaking of Delver affair again, I find the card hiddeous on many levels and the fact that this goes in line with its ugly design is no coincidence. Otoh, I'm afraid that once Delver would be banned, aggrocontrol decks would lose quite some power against the pure controls, and this is hardly a status I'd support, as I own one last pile, and no surprise, it's a RUG Delver. With control players less afraid of the initial onslaught of turn2-turn4 flying Nacatls, they'd not only may use far more tools to fight the combo (not bad in WotC's eyes), but their tempo matchup would improve, as each early turn without StP/Bolt won't be that hurtful as of now, when the openings are all about how far the Delver can fly to reduce the opponent's life total beyond ten; I hope it makes sense. In short: I'd love to see Delver gone, but not for the cost of a new format dominated by the many iterations of The Deck, all the while true aggro still dies to combo and one-mana WoGs, Tempo decks are crippled because they cannot press enough in early turns, and combo still not caring about anything, esp. when there is far wider window due to an increased number of turns to kill without a bug.

Right now there are several decks based around Delver (I know it's not precise, but w/e) and I'm not sure if killing them would be the right move and if it would improve metagame in any way, but I guess that making a fast Delver-like non-blue one-drop could save them. For not only personal interest (playing RUG exclusively), but also due to all the "color pie, Type II, aggresive colors, etc." stuff, I'd welcome a red remake of Delver with all its pros and none of its cons, esp. the double face which is one of the most stupid design mistakes WotC ever made.



Bird Lad ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯:r:
Creature - Human Bird

Flying
________________ 2/1



Delver is a stupid card with a really bad desing for a card game.And I'd love to finally throw my set into the thresh bin, and if not for anything else, then for how incovenient the games are for all of us who triple-sleeve.

[Lemnear]

As least I'm not the only one who feels kinda filthy by opening with DRS into Wasteland into double Delver turn 2...

[Zombie]

As least I'm not the only one who feels kinda filthy by opening with DRS into Wasteland into double Delver turn 2...

"kinda"?

[Final Fortune]

I'm a 100% sure that IF WotC would harrow the Delver-monoculture in Legacy and indeed decks like Zoo (which still lose to Batterskull), Goblins or Maverick return, we would sit here or in the B/R Thread and would hear rants about S&T + LED once more. Don't get me wrong: I dislike the monkey-gameplan of Delver on the play like the next one does.

I doubt aggro would return even if Delver of Secrets were banned, Jund and Junk would just gain a stronger hold on the format now that aggro-control couldn't run away with the game on the back of a Delver of Secrets. I actually think you need unbannings or bannings to make aggro competitive, either Skull Clamp or Goblin Recruiter needs to be unbanned so aggro can over power aggro-control and control on card advantage or Stone Forge Mystic or dual lands need to be banned so aggro can out race aggro-control and control on life. I just don't understand in a format where Storm, Belcher, Show&Tell, Reanimator and Hermit Druids end games on T2 how Skullclamp is over the line.

Actually, I think Stoneforge Mystic is the worst offender in the format, because BUG and RUG aren't really doing anything to discourage aggro as a strategy.

[Megadeus]

Hermit Druids
You do know that this card is banned right?

[Final Fortune]

You do know that this card is banned right?

You do know Balustrade Spy and Under City Informer aren't, right?

[Megadeus]

Right. When you said Hermit Druid, my first thought was totally "Oh he is talking about those random commons and uncommons from gatecrash that see marginal play in a shitbox deck!"

[ahg113]

Right. When you said Hermit Druid, my first thought was totally "Oh he is talking about those random commons and uncommons from gatecrash that see marginal play in a shitbox deck!"

That hurts guy. Manaless dredge probably deserves a little bit more respect than that, potentially.

[thecrav]

Personally, I would love to see a kind of "prisoner exchange" with the banned list on a yearly basis, or maybe twice a year. A format-dominating card gets banned and something comes off the banned list.

This has been widely discussed as a way to help pare down the Modern banned list

[Barook]

Actually, I think Stoneforge Mystic is the worst offender in the format, because BUG and RUG aren't really doing anything to discourage aggro as a strategy.
Stoneforge can be easily killed before it becomes active and jams down a Batterskull. Jitte also hurts, but Jitte is the offender here for being a retarded design, not SFM.

While it can be annoying, there are far worse offenders for aggro:
- fast combo which aggro can't reallistically race
- Terminus - who right in their mind thought that a 1-mana Super-Wrath of God was a good idea?
- decks running the PF-engine or things that are removal-heavy in general

[Megadeus]

Stoneforge can be easily killed before it becomes active and jams down a Batterskull. Jitte also hurts, but Jitte is the offender here for being a retarded design, not SFM.

While it can be annoying, there are far worse offenders for aggro:
- fast combo which aggro can't reallistically race
- Terminus - who right in their mind thought that a 1-mana Super-Wrath of God was a good idea?
- decks running the PF-engine or things that are removal-heavy in general

Agreed. It is much easier for Zoo to deal with BSkull or Jitte via some like Ancient Grudges or something than it is to deal with a terminus floating on top.

[Will_L]

Unban Jace the Mindsculptor and Bloodbraid Elf in modern

They can keep each other in check because BBE is very good against Jace. Jace would also make U/W Control a more viable deck

Jund sucks now without Deathrite Shaman and BBE would make it good again

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Right. When you said Hermit Druid, my first thought was totally "Oh he is talking about those random commons and uncommons from gatecrash that see marginal play in a shitbox deck!"
That was funny. Unnecessary, but funny.

Speaking of Terminus: is there any other way than Gaddock, how to fight Terminus with a non-blue creature based deck?

[Higgs]

Yes I think Terminus is key as well. I played SFM decks before Terminus and I played against a bunch of Goblins, Merfolk, GB midrangey aggro stuff etc. And all of those were grindy as hell. Especially Goblins was a nightmare with their never ending CA. Also Maverick. I think Terminus was too much for all these decks and SFM in the void isn't the problem card that kills aggro.

[YamiJoey]

Unban Jace the Mindsculptor and Bloodbraid Elf in modern

They can keep each other in check because BBE is very good against Jace. Jace would also make U/W Control a more viable deck

Jund sucks now without Deathrite Shaman and BBE would make it good again

My results with BG have been perfectly fine. I'm slowly finding cards and strategies to adapt. We're a little weaker to Spell Snare these days, and we have to play an increased amount of discard due to the rise of Storm, but Courser is insane in basically every match-up.

[Final Fortune]

I don't think Terminus is as bad as Stoneforge Mystic because it's only played in one deck and the effect is easily replicated in other decks with Pyroclasm or Engineered Explosives out of the SB, where Stoneforge Mystic is essentially condensing Exalted Angel and Umezawa's Jitte into a 4 card tutor and body all in one in a multitude of decks.

I don't think combo is an obstacle for aggro unless aggro-control fails to balance the metagame between aggro-control > combo > aggro > aggro-control, that's why I really think Skullclamp can come off so decks like Goblins, Affinity and Elves can have their edge vs aggro-control back.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't think Terminus is as bad as Stoneforge Mystic because it's only played in one deck and the effect is easily replicated in other decks with Pyroclasm or Engineered Explosives out of the SB, where Stoneforge Mystic is essentially condensing Exalted Angel and Umezawa's Jitte into a 4 card tutor and body all in one in a multitude of decks.

I don't think combo is an obstacle for aggro unless aggro-control fails to balance the metagame between aggro-control > combo > aggro > aggro-control, that's why I really think Skullclamp can come off so decks like Goblins, Affinity and Elves can have their edge vs aggro-control back.

I'm not convinced if Skullclamp is safe to unban, it's one of a pretty strong card. Yep, you (was it you?) mentioned the combo's pressence which makes Skullclamp pretty funny whne compared with a turn2 kill, but I'm still not sure if it won't be quite too powerful for Legacy. Otoh, it may be an interesting experiment, and they may ban it again. Moreover, I don't think it'll be that bad card, seeing how Goblins are far from a broken deck.
What I fear is that it would serve another aggro-combo decks (Elves and Affinity, of course) without having any result for the less combo-oriented creature decks, mostly the Goblins.
IDK. It'll definitely be interesting to see it. I guess tempo would have even more bad times against hordes, as Roughs/Bolts/Clasms would lose some of their power.

[Lemnear]

Sorry, but what's the point of combo and it's weakness against control if you accelerate Aggro decks to nearly match combo's speed but having an easy time with control too by throwing a Billion creatures at them?

To me the "Vengevival" era was the hateful climax of the idea to accelerate Aggro into the realms of combo with a card that has combo potential (Survival/clamp)

[HammafistRoob]

Skullclamp is way to broken for Legacy. Although it would be fun to brew random stuff like 4 Squadron Hawk, 4Stoneforge , 4 Clamp. Or even 4 EtW, 4 Clamp, some tutors and fast mana.

[TsumiBand]

Speaking of Terminus: is there any other way than Gaddock, how to fight Terminus with a non-blue creature based deck?

Legion's Initiative
Ghostway
Cold Storage

Honestly Legion's Initiative doesn't seem like the literal worst card in the world - if it does nothing, it's still a Crusade (kind of). Ghostway is awfully narrow unless you have a shitpot of ETB effects. Cold Storage is... Cold Storage :P you can pull Unearth tricks with Cold Storage, but I don't think those have Legacy applications (though it's hi-larious in EDH, lemme tell ya).

[Esper3k]

Squadron Hawk is pretty hilarious against Terminus (don't laugh, I've done this before in Legacy!).

[Barook]

Speaking of Terminus: is there any other way than Gaddock, how to fight Terminus with a non-blue creature based deck?

Legion's Initiative
Ghostway
Cold Storage

Honestly Legion's Initiative doesn't seem like the literal worst card in the world - if it does nothing, it's still a Crusade (kind of). Ghostway is awfully narrow unless you have a shitpot of ETB effects. Cold Storage is... Cold Storage :P you can pull Unearth tricks with Cold Storage, but I don't think those have Legacy applications (though it's hi-larious in EDH, lemme tell ya).
And that's why Terminus is way worse than SFM - there are significantly less outs in non-blue colors against it. You can either attack the SFM or the equipment with hate and removal.

Aggro gets mowed down by fast combo, that's its nature. But even PF-decks can be somewhat fought off with Wastelands and GY-hate.

Hate doesn't work too well with Terminus outside of blue. Mana denial/taxing doesn't work due to how absurdly cheap it is. Aside from Gaddock Teeg, who still needs to be protected by Mom AND a Sylvan Safekeeper to not fall to StP/Karakas, there's pretty much only Nevermore as other, non-blue realistic option to fight off Terminus.

It isn't a coincidence that Brainstorm puts up insane numbers on a regular basis. Both Delver and Terminus are among the prime cards that feed on it.

[TsumiBand]

Squadron Hawk is pretty hilarious against Terminus (don't laugh, I've done this before in Legacy!).

Makes sense though. It's not the swiftest board reset in the world, but it'll do in a pinch and especially if the opponent isn't actually able to do anything but tuck your birds.

I guess there are a handful of cards that have a similar-but-different effect; Welkin Hawk, Avarax, Skyshroud Sentinel... at that point you're just running so many sub-par dudes though, you must surely be sacrificing

If only Rebels activated a little cheaper :P

I guess, as long as cards like fucking Ghostway are on the table, what about Unexpectedly Absent for 0? It's got a pretty major dependency in requiring the opponent to control a permanent, and it would only really work in response to a Brainstorm or after a clear set-up, but it would catch them off guard.

There's also the Extirpate/Cranial Extraction/Slaughter Games route. I'd cast Slaughter Games for Terminus, sure. Seems funny.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Legion's Initiative
Ghostway
Cold Storage

Honestly Legion's Initiative doesn't seem like the literal worst card in the world - if it does nothing, it's still a Crusade (kind of). Ghostway is awfully narrow unless you have a shitpot of ETB effects. Cold Storage is... Cold Storage :P you can pull Unearth tricks with Cold Storage, but I don't think those have Legacy applications (though it's hi-larious in EDH, lemme tell ya).

I wanted to build a WG Ghostway deck as long as I got Savannahs. Something with Astral Slide and Parallax Wave, etc. Loam,of course. But then I realized it isn't the best idea ever. Idk, maybe I'll brew something.

[TsumiBand]

I wanted to build a WG Ghostway deck as long as I got Savannahs. Something with Astral Slide and Parallax Wave, etc. Loam,of course. But then I realized it isn't the best idea ever. Idk, maybe I'll brew something.

Yeah, the problem is that Ghostway is only as good as your ability to find and cast it. Astral Slide is also a strong possibility with a Loam engine, but at that point you have to wonder why you're even playing aggro, right? Unless you're doing the old "exile my face-down morph creature, put Exalted Angel/Krosan Colossus into play" trick. Which I fully encourage. :D

EDIT - you know, actually, with the recent addition of Idyllic Tutor, I wonder if there's a strong enough enchantment creature AND standalone enchantment base to build a useful GW toolbox aggro deck that can reliably answer control strategies like Terminus, etc. You have Idyllic, Enlightened, dumb stuff like GSZ and Eladamri's Call... hmm. Why do I have to be at work right now? effffff

[amalek0]

Makes sense though. It's not the swiftest board reset in the world, but it'll do in a pinch and especially if the opponent isn't actually able to do anything but tuck your birds.

I guess there are a handful of cards that have a similar-but-different effect; Welkin Hawk, Avarax, Skyshroud Sentinel... at that point you're just running so many sub-par dudes though, you must surely be sacrificing

If only Rebels activated a little cheaper :P

I guess, as long as cards like fucking Ghostway are on the table, what about Unexpectedly Absent for 0? It's got a pretty major dependency in requiring the opponent to control a permanent, and it would only really work in response to a Brainstorm or after a clear set-up, but it would catch them off guard.

There's also the Extirpate/Cranial Extraction/Slaughter Games route. I'd cast Slaughter Games for Terminus, sure. Seems funny.

I'm always tempted one of these days to throw together Suicide black splashing red for a legacy event, just to troll the hell out of the metagame.

Something along the lines of
4x thoughtseize
4x duress
4x dark confidant
4x lightning bolt
4x gatekeeper of malakir
4x dark ritual
4x hymn to tourach
3x extirpate
1x sensei's divining top
4x geth's verdict
4x something that's a quick clock/threat
20 lands

with a sideboard including slaughter games, some ensnaring bridges, and leyline of the void. Remind all the miracles players in my local meta that even though I'm a long-term lands player, that there ARE other decks besides DnT and combo that exist as well. If wizards would unban black vise, I'd totally run this.

[Megadeus]

Makes sense though. It's not the swiftest board reset in the world, but it'll do in a pinch and especially if the opponent isn't actually able to do anything but tuck your birds.

I guess there are a handful of cards that have a similar-but-different effect; Welkin Hawk, Avarax, Skyshroud Sentinel... at that point you're just running so many sub-par dudes though, you must surely be sacrificing

If only Rebels activated a little cheaper :P

I guess, as long as cards like fucking Ghostway are on the table, what about Unexpectedly Absent for 0? It's got a pretty major dependency in requiring the opponent to control a permanent, and it would only really work in response to a Brainstorm or after a clear set-up, but it would catch them off guard.

There's also the Extirpate/Cranial Extraction/Slaughter Games route. I'd cast Slaughter Games for Terminus, sure. Seems funny.

Slaughter games is actually kind of insane vs miracles. First one names entreat, second one names jace. Suddenly your opponent can't win

[TsumiBand]

Slaughter games is actually kind of insane vs miracles. First one names entreat, second one names jace. Suddenly your opponent can't win

Right? They can't counter it, and they can't actually kill you except maybe with TNN that you can probably race because you're in RB. And Black is at no lack of -x/-x answers to that guy.

I should put together my playset of Slaughter Gameses before someone upsets GP: Nepal with a Rakdos lists :/ god knows if a card costs more than like $2.50 USD I feel like I'm priced out of the game

[TheArchitect]

Right? They can't counter it, and they can't actually kill you except maybe with TNN that you can probably race because you're in RB. And Black is at no lack of -x/-x answers to that guy.

I should put together my playset of Slaughter Gameses before someone upsets GP: Nepal with a Rakdos lists :/ god knows if a card costs more than like $2.50 USD I feel like I'm priced out of the game

Miracles doesn't use TNN, but I do say I win probably 20% of my games with wizard beats, 30% with jace and 50% with entreat. Although scoops to a good position are common too.

The scariest thing for me as a miracles player is reoccurring threats and/or card advantage. Stuff like Thalia/brimaz/clique with a karakas, goblin ringleader, an unanswered bob, squadron hawk lol, elspeth or bitterblossom. Also just don't play out more than 1 threat. Terminus is pretty bad when it's a stps that requires a lot of extra work.

[twndomn]

Why are people derailing this thread into Miracles?

People who mention Skullclamp and Survival have no idea what they are discussing. Cotter mentioned the exact reason why Survival should be banned. That reason can be apply to Skullclamp as well. Simply put, the aggro decks running Survival packages and Skullclamp friendly creatures will always do better than those aggro decks without. In other words, you degenerate aggro strategy overall by forcing them to converge.

Over the years, Wizards R&D have done some ridiculous screw-ups, Skullclamps and Mental Misstep are the ones. You can argue TNN was a screw-up as well, it's possible.

[Malakai]

Slaughter games is actually kind of insane vs miracles. First one names entreat, second one names jace. Suddenly your opponent can't win

No, I just kill you with random Vendilion Cliques and Snapcaster Mages, which I can do because I'm up at least two cards on you.

[Final Fortune]

Sorry, but what's the point of combo and it's weakness against control if you accelerate Aggro decks to nearly match combo's speed but having an easy time with control too by throwing a Billion creatures at them?

To me the "Vengevival" era was the hateful climax of the idea to accelerate Aggro into the realms of combo with a card that has combo potential (Survival/clamp)

I don't think Elves with Skull Clamp would be any where near as fast or as consistent as any dedicated combo deck and obviously any dedicated combo deck would roll Elves. If Elves or Affinity suddenly had a significant winning% above aggro-control and control then that'd be extremely good for the format as a whole IMO (like 60/40) and I'd be really happy to see Rough/Tumble back in people's SBs.

Worth testing IMO, if WOTC thinks TNN is acceptable in Legacy may as well throw aggro a rope, it's not like things can't be unbanned and banned again if necessary. Hell even Vengevival would be a joke in contemporary Legacy, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay easily keep Survival in check.

[TsumiBand]

I don't think Elves with Skull Clamp would be any where near as fast or as consistent as any dedicated combo deck and obviously any dedicated combo deck would roll Elves. If Elves or Affinity suddenly had a significant winning% above aggro-control and control then that'd be extremely good for the format as a whole IMO (like 60/40) and I'd be really happy to see Rough/Tumble back in people's SBs.

I want Skullclamp to be legal so fucking bad, it's not even a human emotion. But honestly I think you're underselling how nasty Elves! becomes with a Clamp in the main. In addition to gaining a Demonic Tutor in Wirewood Herald, it complements Glimpse as an alternative draw spell and is actually cheaper in casting and activating per card drawn until you start 'really going off' with multiple Glimpses and Clamp in play. It certainly costs more mana, but again with the Herald in the main to lock down the missing piece of Nettle Sentinel/Tap-For-GGG-Guy combo, you quickly stop running out of mana issues and start just drawing your deck until victory.

I might even put Arcbound Ravager back in my Affinity list if Clamp were A Thing again, because I couldn't take it out fast enough once combat damage fell off the stack and Disciple of the Vault was revealed as a piece of shit. I strongly doubt it will ever happen though. :( Hell, SFM's existence alone is reason enough to keep it banned, in my mind. That's easy, splashable draw for a host of decks that would ideally be in topdeck mode after they poop their hand on the table. Boros Sligh with Young Pyromancer and Skullclamp would be pretty fun to pilot though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why are people derailing this thread into Miracles?

People who mention Skullclamp and Survival have no idea what they are discussing. Cotter mentioned the exact reason why Survival should be banned. That reason can be apply to Skullclamp as well. Simply put, the aggro decks running Survival packages and Skullclamp friendly creatures will always do better than those aggro decks without. In other words, you degenerate aggro strategy overall by forcing them to converge.

Over the years, Wizards R&D have done some ridiculous screw-ups, Skullclamps and Mental Misstep are the ones. You can argue TNN was a screw-up as well, it's possible.

That's dumb, we had years and years of aggro decks that chose not to use Survival before the card got the axe.

I mean it's true that every fair deck and most of the unfair ones would run Skullclamp, because that card's stupid, but Survival? No. Adding 1GG to the cost of creatures is not a good aggro strategy.

[Lemnear]

That's dumb, we had years and years of aggro decks that chose not to use Survival before the card got the axe.

I mean it's true that every fair deck and most of the unfair ones would run Skullclamp, because that card's stupid, but Survival? No. Adding 1GG to the cost of creatures is not a good aggro strategy.

It's not fair to evaluate SotF based on the times we were tutoring Flametongue Kavus; maybe it's not even fair to evaluate it based on Vengevine or Retainers+Emrakul ... I'm positive that TODAY running creatures without Survival would be plain wrong and I cannot see that chaining Vengevines, KotR's, Delver or any future madness printed with a tacked-on cardadvantage Engine aka Squee, is any good for format diversity

[nedleeds]

That's dumb, we had years and years of aggro decks that chose not to use Survival before the card got the axe.

I mean it's true that every fair deck and most of the unfair ones would run Skullclamp, because that card's stupid, but Survival? No. Adding 1GG to the cost of creatures is not a good aggro strategy.

+1 ... he's just repeating what somebody else said without actually examining history. SotF was used in control and midrange creature and combo creature decks, then Vengevine sped up things. Adding 1G to wild Nacatyl makes it bad Troll Ascetic. In addition to the fact that you may have cast Survival on your second turn and passed which is the last thing an aggro deck wants to do.

SotF was banned before we had GSZ -- that, even more than surgical, abrupt decay, revoker, arbiter would mean an unbanned SotF would be a good but not broken card. Not anymore broken than Show Tell, LED or Super Wrath for {W} anyway ... Aggro isn't what it used to be because Delver is so far and away the best aggro creature it stamped out all the comparables at 1CC.

[HammerAndSickled]

Re the state of Aggro: People are coming at this the wrong way. Traditional aggro doesn't exist because Delver IS the new aggro. Tempo decks will always be better aggro decks in formats with fast combo. It's just a fact that tempo is the superior option in this format. If you look at Vintage, a lot fewer people are casting Stoneforges and Terminus there, and aggro is still a joke. Now you could attribute that to the higher power level of the format, but if we go the other way and look at Modern, aggro is similarly nonexistent (except affinity, which plays more like a combo deck anyway). Zoo got unbanned and did nothing relevant, and even before that the deck that got the cat banned was a tempo deck. Aggro as we know it is functionally dead, just like classic Morphling-style control and true Prison decks. The game has just moved on.

[mishima_kazuya]

Re the state of Aggro: People are coming at this the wrong way. Traditional aggro doesn't exist because Delver IS the new aggro. Tempo decks will always be better aggro decks in formats with fast combo. It's just a fact that tempo is the superior option in this format. If you look at Vintage, a lot fewer people are casting Stoneforges and Terminus there, and aggro is still a joke. Now you could attribute that to the higher power level of the format, but if we go the other way and look at Modern, aggro is similarly nonexistent (except affinity, which plays more like a combo deck anyway). Zoo got unbanned and did nothing relevant, and even before that the deck that got the cat banned was a tempo deck. Aggro as we know it is functionally dead, just like classic Morphling-style control and true Prison decks. The game has just moved on.

My excitement to play zoo again after the Wild Nacatl unban went away real quick when I realized how weak the strategy was in Modern.
power creep is a bitch :(

[H]

Boros Sligh with Young Pyromancer and Skullclamp would be pretty fun to pilot though.

That's what Vintage is for. You'll win a good number of games there with a Steppe Lynx, a friend of mine did it before YP existed, it'd only be better now.

What I still want to see come off is Mind Twist. Who really thinks that card is still so broken it can't be legal?

[rufus]

That's what Vintage is for. You'll win a good number of games there with a Steppe Lynx, a friend of mine did it before YP existed, it'd only be better now.

What I still want to see come off is Mind Twist. Who really thinks that card is still so broken it can't be legal?

Dunno, but it's quite 'unfun', and hasn't WoTC been keeping the size of the list constant of late?

[Megadeus]

No, I just kill you with random Vendilion Cliques and Snapcaster Mages, which I can do because I'm up at least two cards on you.

I mean decks packing Red and Black do tend to not have removal for creatures right? :really:

Why did miracles players get so butt hurt about my comment?

As for Survival being the "Go to card" for aggro if it were legal, Delver is the Go to card for any current aggro deck, so I don't see the issue. Brainstorm is in every blue deck other than Folk. Why can't green have a somewhat slow, 2CC echantment that costs mana to activate?

[H]

Dunno, but it's quite 'unfun', and hasn't WoTC been keeping the size of the list constant of late?

Is it less fun than playing against some kind of Storm deck? If someone vomits out a ton of mana and Mind Twists you, you don't lose; but if someone does the same and casts Tendrils of Agony, you do lose. I know which one of those I find less fun.

[Megadeus]

Is it less fun than playing against some kind of Storm deck? If someone vomits out a ton of mana and Mind Twists you, you don't lose; but if someone does the same and casts Tendrils of Agony, you do lose. I know which one of those I find less fun.

People enjoy bitching about "unfun" cards. Twist would see play in like 4-5 decks MAYBE. Esperblade maybe for the mirror, Nic Fit as a 1-2 of, maybe a black MUD deck, someones terrible deck attempting to ritual into a twist for 7 on T1, and maybe Junk.

[H]

People enjoy bitching about "unfun" cards. Twist would see play in like 4-5 decks MAYBE. Esperblade maybe for the mirror, Nic Fit as a 1-2 of, maybe a black MUD deck, someones terrible deck attempting to ritual into a twist for 7 on T1, and maybe Junk.

Plus there are already played cards like Wilt Leaf Liege that would punish such plays.

Again for people who would say Mind Twist is unfun, is Emmrakul more fun? Terminus? Legacy is chock full of unfair cards, that's what makes it fun.

If I am remembering correctly, Mind Twist has always been banned, since it came over from the Type 1 list, it's never even had it's chance in Legacy. I think it does actually deserve to be Restricted in Vintage, because of Moxes and Mana Crypt, but Legacy is a wholly different beast.

[twndomn]

I'm actually surprised when Entomb came off the ban list while Mind twist's still on it. Shouldn't be the other way around?

[ShiftyKapree]

If skullclamp was to come off you would see goblins, elves and affinity being all tier 1 decks. It would be crazy to see that card legal again. Look back on the Elf and Nail lists or affinity lists with it. They were just nasty, and Goblins you don't even want to imagine what that would be like. I would like to see worldgorger dragon come off the list

[jimmythegreek]

I don't think Elves with Skull Clamp would be any where near as fast or as consistent as any dedicated combo deck and obviously any dedicated combo deck would roll Elves. If Elves or Affinity suddenly had a significant winning% above aggro-control and control then that'd be extremely good for the format as a whole IMO (like 60/40) and I'd be really happy to see Rough/Tumble back in people's SBs.

Worth testing IMO, if WOTC thinks TNN is acceptable in Legacy may as well throw aggro a rope, it's not like things can't be unbanned and banned again if necessary. Hell even Vengevival would be a joke in contemporary Legacy, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay easily keep Survival in check.

+1!
Agrro is all but extinct in legacy....someone throw these good ol' creature decks a fucking bone.

[btm10]

+1!
Agrro is all but extinct in legacy....someone throw these good ol' creature decks a fucking bone.

Or not. Good riddance. I'd rather have play against storm combo all day than face aggro in half of my matches. At least the ANT and TES (and the sort-of-storm High Tide) players are playing interesting decks.

[bakofried]

Or not. Good riddance. I'd rather have play against storm combo all day than face aggro in half of my matches. At least the ANT and TES (and the sort-of-storm High Tide) players are playing interesting decks.

What the fuck happened to diversity in legacy? Aggro's doing pretty piss-poor right now, -some- fucking representation is warranted. I want to see something different take down a goddamn Open for once.

[Megadeus]

Technically Aggro control has taken down the last 4 opens :wink:

But agreed. Aggro has so many cards that hose it from essentially every style it is impossibly difficult for them to keep up. I would LOVE to see zoo relevant.

[bakofried]

Who knows? Maybe Conspiracy will bring some epic pain for the Delvers, or a massive boost for non-blue aggro. Could happen.

[Barook]

Or not. Good riddance. I'd rather have play against storm combo all day than face aggro in half of my matches. At least the ANT and TES (and the sort-of-storm High Tide) players are playing interesting decks.
Storm decks are certainly entertaining - for the one who plays them. As for the opponents - not so much.


What the fuck happened to diversity in legacy? Aggro's doing pretty piss-poor right now, -some- fucking representation is warranted. I want to see something different take down a goddamn Open for once.
Retarded mass removal aside, Aggro needs to be fast to be competitive. However, whenever a good, aggressive creature gets printed, it's rather picked up by tempo decks and put into a better shell. It's pretty hard to make good, aggressive creatures that don't fit into a tempo shell.

[btm10]

What the fuck happened to diversity in legacy? Aggro's doing pretty piss-poor right now, -some- fucking representation is warranted. I want to see something different take down a goddamn Open for once.

There's plenty of diversity right now. I wish combo were better represented at the top, by that will likely remedy itself soon. I'm not the biggest Delver fan, but at least the creature decks that are doing well right now run counters and discard instead of Craw Wurms.

[bakofried]

There's plenty of diversity right now. I wish combo were better represented at the top, by that will likely remedy itself soon. I'm not the biggest Delver fan, but at least the creature decks that are doing well right now run counters and discard instead of Craw Wurms.

So what, you're just too good to get killed by a Wild Nacatl? I don't mind playing against combo and I wish it were better represented too, but why does aggro hit a peeve when you don't even play against it?

[Megadeus]

Storm decks are certainly entertaining - for the one who plays them. As for the opponents - not so much.


Retarded mass removal aside, Aggro needs to be fast to be competitive. However, whenever a good, aggressive creature gets printed, it's rather picked up by tempo decks and put into a better shell. It's pretty hard to make good, aggressive creatures that don't fit into a tempo shell.

Meh maybe I'm one of few, but I actually don't hate playing against non Dredge/Belcher combo. Making me think on a different axis of how to attack is interesting to me.

[ESG]

Who knows? Maybe Conspiracy will bring some epic pain for the Delvers, or a massive boost for non-blue aggro. Could happen.

Pretty sure the best card in the set will be blue. But at least the set name is honest.

[jimmythegreek]

Or not. Good riddance. I'd rather have play against storm combo all day than face aggro in half of my matches. At least the ANT and TES (and the sort-of-storm High Tide) players are playing interesting decks.

Seriously? High-Tide is the puke from my ass....you fucking hate magic, admit it.

[morgan_coke]

Barook,

It's actually incredibly easy to make creatures that aren't good in a tempo shell. Just follow these simple design guidelines:

A) don't make them blue

B) if they cost 2 or more mana, make it double colored, hybrid is fine, multicolor is fine, but blue can't be one of the colors

C) don't make them fucking blue

D) give enhancements to them based on multiple non-blue lands/effects (nacatl) or make them have anti-blue drawbacks (your blue spells cost 1 more to cast - think similar to the leech cycle, but maybe for enemy colors, like G 3/2, blue and black spells you control cost 1 more to cast)

E) seriously, quit making the most aggressive/powerful creatures goddamn blue

[bakofried]

To be fair, they've kind of done that with Thalia and Spirit
Blue decks won't be running those. I still think Delver is oppressive enough to warrant banning.

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm tired of seeing Delver everywhere.. How is it that one of the most aggressive creatures is Blue? Someone at R&D screwed up the color-pie.

[HammafistRoob]

All I'm hearing now is wah, wah, wahah, my butt hurts because Wild Nacatl isn't playable. Who wants to play aggro anyway? I mean don't get me wrong it can be fun for about five minutes, but the plan of attack is so linear and the lines of play are basically non existent outside of sequencing.

Also, why is this thread even a thing? It has clearly devolved past its purpose. Did people still really expect True-Name to get axed? I feel like Wizards doesn't care if the meta is dominated by blue, and if they did, it would probably take multiple bannings to even make an attempt at evening out the playing field (color wise).

[Mr. Froggy]

All I'm hearing now is wah, wah, wahah, my butt hurts because Wild Nacatl isn't playable. Who wants to play aggro anyway? I mean don't get me wrong it can be fun for about five minutes, but the plan of attack is so linear and the lines of play are basically non existent outside of sequencing.

Also, why is this thread even a thing? It has clearly devolved past its purpose. Did people still really expect True-Name to get axed? I feel like Wizards doesn't care if the meta is dominated by blue, and if they did, it would probably take multiple bannings to even make an attempt to even out the playing field (color wise).

I couldn't care less for Wild Nacatl, I'm just tired of seeing Delver everywhere.

If I were able to ban a card though, it would have to be S'n'T just because of its herp-derpness.

[TsumiBand]

I'm tired of seeing Delver everywhere.. How is it that one of the most aggressive creatures is Blue? Someone at R&D screwed up the color-pie.

You know, I keep seeing this as argument against Delver -- and I don't disagree, he's in the wrong goddamn color.

I can understand an argument against using the "wrong color/bad for this color" motivation to spark or underscore the rationale for banning a card. I think, however, that it can and should be at least a partial weigh-in to the discussion when dealing with how to define a format vis-a-vis its B/R list.

Like, it's not enough to say that all off-color printings "should" be banned. That involves investigating each card and determining not only its representation of the color it's in, but the fact that a lot of stuff has floated around in the scheme of the color pie/wheel/whatever for years. Take Black's old gold "I can do whatever I want as long as I'm willing to pay enough life" -- this has slowly been whittled away and Standard hardly reflects this mentality. Does that mean we ban a card like Ashes to Ashes? What about the 'artifact/enchantment' weakness in Black; do we forbid Legacy players from sleeving up Gate to Phyrexia?

However I think one can take a look at the card and examine its overall impact on the metagame, in addition to keeping in mind the separation of powers that having 5 different colors is meant to foster, and make an informed assessment. We should be able to make a case for something which is prevalent, meta-defining, and abhorrent to the color pie as having too much pull.

A while ago on a different thread I made a surface-level examination of the recent years of Zoom in Legacy, which saw the deck move from a Tier 1 contender to barely worth considering. Essentially, the introduction of Delver was a huge nail in that coffin; splashing Blue in Zoo eventually leads players to have the same internal conversation that they've had for years when they let Blue leak into an aggro list - "Why am I playing [these cards] when I could be playing Force of Will and Brainstorm?" So the deck changes and morphs into the various BUG/RUG/whatever shard or wedge you favor Delver, but at its core it has the same old yutzy counter-and-draw suite that you expect out of Blue. It co-opted a bunch of lists - Zoo, Counter-burn, Threshold - and it's just kind of an amorphous mass of 'separate decks' which aren't really all that fucking different. RUG vs BUG Delver - oh, so Abrupt Decays and DRS instead of burn spells. Much unique. So change. Very innovate. (i almost never invoke the doge, so don't ride my ass too hard)

Honestly, that kind of sterility in decklists is what moved me away from Vintage to Legacy in the damn first place. The "1 of all the good things + my win con" stuff isn't quite as bad in either format today as it was when I first signed on in 200X, and I'm not just bitching about not being able to pet-deck my way through a Legacy tournament with a 61-card Tier 2.5 deck - the idea that a counter-based, Blue-based aggro deck has prompted so much disruption in what a "good aggro deck" ought to do just feels... 'damaging' to me.

Really what bugs me about it is the portability of the Blue "FoW/BS/Ponder/Daze" shell. It facilitates combo, aggro, and control. I can't think of an analog in any other colors; there is no more portable shell for a deck than those Blue staples. Leveraging aggro strategies against that shell wasn't always that cut-and-dry; there used to be endless discussions about Merfolk with or without Brainstorm, or a time when controlling a RW dual land was a more potent aggro strategy than flipping an Instant from the top of the library. But printings like Delver give that shell more and more real estate in the aggro terrain, and that's A Bad Thing.

[Technics]

Barook,

It's actually incredibly easy to make creatures that aren't good in a tempo shell. Just follow these simple design guidelines:

A) don't make them blue

B) if they cost 2 or more mana, make it double colored, hybrid is fine, multicolor is fine, but blue can't be one of the colors

C) don't make them fucking blue

D) give enhancements to them based on multiple non-blue lands/effects (nacatl) or make them have anti-blue drawbacks (your blue spells cost 1 more to cast - think similar to the leech cycle, but maybe for enemy colors, like G 3/2, blue and black spells you control cost 1 more to cast)

E) seriously, quit making the most aggressive/powerful creatures goddamn blue

Emphasis mine.

[Lemnear]

All I'm hearing now is wah, wah, wahah, my butt hurts because Wild Nacatl isn't playable. Who wants to play aggro anyway? I mean don't get me wrong it can be fun for about five minutes, but the plan of attack is so linear and the lines of play are basically non existent outside of sequencing.

I support this. Mindlessly using all your mana each turn for playing creatures or reduandant burn-spells while just tapping all your creatures in every Attack-step should not be a viable or even successful strategy in Legacy.

[btm10]

All I'm hearing now is wah, wahwah, my butt hurts because Wild Nacatl isn't playable. Who wants to play aggro anyway? I mean don't get me wrong it can be fun for about five minutes, but the plan of attack is so linear and the lines of play are basically non existent outside of sequencing.


Thanks. That's a more eloquent/less divisive way of saying what I wanted to say earlier.



Also, why is this thread even a thing? It has clearly devolved past its purpose. Did people still really expect True-Name to get axed? I feel like Wizards doesn't care if the meta is dominated by blue, and if they did, it would probably take multiple bannings to even make an attempt at evening out the playing field (color wise).

Why this dissuasion isn't in the B/R thread is a mystery. And I think that people forget that trying to make Blue worse through bannings is incredibly unhealthy for the format, and can only end with it being like Modern where any even sort-of fast combo deck gets key components banned.

The people who want to play traditional aggro and creature-based strategies have the three largest competitive formats to do that. Please leave Legacy and Vintage for those of us who like playing Magic that's about spells.

[jimmythegreek]

I support this. Mindlessly using all your mana each turn for playing creatures or reduandant burn-spells while just tapping all your creatures in every Attack-step should not be a viable or even successful strategy in Legacy.

Grossly oversimplified.....I played vial goblins for years and first hand I can tell you that that deck was far from mindless. Deciding on which hands were keepable against faster decks to figuring whether attacks were pfofitable or not made this deck more difficult to pilot than many give it credit for. Its much to easy to say " just turn'em sideways".

[bakofried]

So when are you guys going to realize blue was doing just fine -before- Delver? Furthermore, when are you going to get tired of seeing the same, what, 24-30 spells jammed in every top eight?

[Barook]

So when are you guys going to realize blue was doing just fine -before- Delver? Furthermore, when are you going to get tired of seeing the same, what, 24-30 spells jammed in every top eight?
Blue was around 50% before Delver and stayed at 60+% after Delver. And you can't make staples go away, at least not without power creep.



Barook,

It's actually incredibly easy to make creatures that aren't good in a tempo shell. Just follow these simple design guidelines:

A) don't make them blue

B) if they cost 2 or more mana, make it double colored, hybrid is fine, multicolor is fine, but blue can't be one of the colors

C) don't make them fucking blue

D) give enhancements to them based on multiple non-blue lands/effects (nacatl) or make them have anti-blue drawbacks (your blue spells cost 1 more to cast - think similar to the leech cycle, but maybe for enemy colors, like G 3/2, blue and black spells you control cost 1 more to cast)

E) seriously, quit making the most aggressive/powerful creatures goddamn blue
Not making stupid blue creatures is a given, especially if the break the color-pie to kingdom come.

Duals make splashing colors way too easy. Just look at BUG Delver - they can easily run stuff like Hymn, Tombstalker and Liliana, despite those costing double black.

And I doubt we would see creatures with specific anti-color drawbacks anytime soon, at least as long as Maro is at the helm.

[Lemnear]

Grossly oversimplified.....I played vial goblins for years and first hand I can tell you that that deck was far from mindless. Deciding on which hands were keepable against faster decks to figuring whether attacks were pfofitable or not made this deck more difficult to pilot than many give it credit for. Its much to easy to say " just turn'em sideways".

Please tell me where I mentioned Goblins, a deck with mana denial, Tutors and cardadvantage engines? Right, I did not. I was talking about decks which contain neither of those decision-trees, but desire to run a maximum of functionally equal cards.

[Richard Cheese]

So when are you guys going to realize blue was doing just fine -before- Delver? Furthermore, when are you going to get tired of seeing the same, what, 24-30 spells jammed in every top eight?

Blue was doing fine, Delver just pushed tempo back into the top tier. Merfolk, Hive mind and Painter were big, and RUG before Delver was NO-RUG, and I don't really remember seeing too much TA around. Zoo was good then, but Batterskull was the beginning of the end, and I think Snapcaster sealed the deal on that moreso than Delver (incidentally I think both of these hurt Merfolk just as bad). Maverick was taking over for Zoo but I guess Terminus kinda kneecapped it.

I don't really think Delver should be banned because on its own it's not really doing anything entirely broken. It just enables an archetype that's so well-rounded that it's hard to imagine what it would take to shift the format away from it. I used to play Zoo and I miss the hell out of it, and I'm just bored to death of RUG by now, but I can't really say for certain that it's dominance is really a bad thing for the format. My gut instinct is to say yes because I miss the old rock-paper-scissors feel of more clear-cut aggro/control/combo archetypes, but maybe it's not all bad to just have a couple decks hanging around that are about 50% vs. the field. It makes it a much more hostile meta for combo, and I think that's probably OK because doing really broken things shouldn't just be a walk in the park.

I guess what I'm saying is that even though I don't personally like where Legacy is at right now, I don't think it's objectively unhealthy or unfun. Likewise, while I think both Delver and TNN were mistakes (regardless of color, TNN is just a shitty design), I don't think that hating them necessarily makes them ban-worthy. It would be nice to see some more hate on blue creatures in the future though. A new Sulfur Elemental could be nice.

[bakofried]

As a note, I meant that blue was far from underpowered before Innistrad block.

@Lemnear
I used Nacatl as an example. I want more archetypes represented, Goblins and Storm included. I don't mind broken things, I just mind boring ones, and Delver is boring as shit. Maybe we'll get lucky and WotC will print something that actually makes Delver more of a snowball card than it is now.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

As a note, I meant that blue was far from underpowered before Innistrad block.

@Lemnear
I used Nacatl as an example. I want more archetypes represented, Goblins and Storm included. I don't mind broken things, I just mind boring ones, and Delver is boring as shit. Maybe we'll get lucky and WotC will print something that actually makes Delver more of a snowball card than it is now.

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What people ask for is that a pure linear strategy like Zoo should be a viable archetype, which is basically the same as demanding a deck with like 40 counterspells to be a successful cornerstone of Legacy. The repeating calls for combo-solutions within this linear aggro strategy Zoo or Burn present are as hilarious as if pilots of the 40-counterspells-deck demand Counterspells with tacked on removal for resolved permanents! I hope it's now clear why the whole discussion around "Zoo should be a top deck and able to handle combo without tradeoffs" is just stupid.

The only problem Zoo has in the current metagame, is the stupid image players have of this archetype in their heads. To the bitching crowd: Go play the fucking hatebears (combo) and quasali pridemages (batterskull/jitte) in your maindeck, quit complaining that those don't beat for 3+ damage and accept that you are not supposed to kill your opponent on turn 3 with that archetype

[bakofried]

I don't play Zoo. I don't own Zoo. Now why not apply your hypotheticals to the other aggro decks in legacy's history? Care to give them all a lesson on how they're doing it wrong?

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[Megadeus]

Zoo is stil playable, but I doubt without extreme luck you could take a big tourney down. Also TNN is basically Moat.

[ahg113]

The people who want to play traditional aggro and creature-based strategies have the three largest competitive formats to do that. Please leave Legacy and Vintage for those of us who like playing Magic that's about spells.

Emphasis mine. What about banning Delver and TNN do you disagree with, provided you and your ilk are interested in playing spells (presumed non-creature spells)?

[Lemnear]

I don't play Zoo. I don't own Zoo. Now why not apply your hypotheticals to the other aggro decks in legacy's history? Care to give them all a lesson on how they're doing it wrong?

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Why should I comment about all the old Kird Ape + Lightning Bolt Vintage decks which I remember from a certain SCRYE magazine (the one who commented on Exodus)? Fact is that TODAY RWG 3 power goodstuff + burn does not cut it anymore, but thanks for confirming that bitching is preferable to discussion about why Zoo vanished and what it takes to make it return.

[bakofried]

Jesus Christ, I tried to point you to tribal aggro, by "other aggro" I didn't mean every deck to pack a lightning bolt or a kird ape.

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[ahg113]

...discussion about why Zoo vanished and what it takes to make it return.

What do you think it would take for Zoo to return to respectable performance levels?

[bakofried]

Proposal: we cool off, define our terms, and move to the official thread.

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[Megadeus]

What do you think it would take for Zoo to return to respectable performance levels?

Imo, a cheap evasive threat. And maybe a meta shift. Yes Zoo has answers to the things strong against it like BSkull, and such, however in a non blue deck the problem is always you still need to naturally draw the hate.

[Lemnear]

What do you think it would take for Zoo to return to respectable performance levels?

As mentioned: less focus on mana/power ratio and burn but moving more towards a Big Zoo/Maverick hybrid aka Nacatl, GSZ, mainboard solutions to combo/SFM in Form of Pridemage/Thalia/Teeg filled up with Bolts and Sylvan Library for reach, possibly with Tariff in MB or SB to battle TNN, Reanimator and S&T

Just from the top of my head


Jesus Christ, I tried to point you to tribal aggro, by "other aggro" I didn't mean every deck to pack a lightning bolt or a kird ape.

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keep changing the questions once I present an answer?

[burtonbaron62]

Imo, a cheap evasive threat. Like Delver? Blue zoo?

[nedleeds]

LOL.

I mean it's round and round. The chances of something better getting printed that just doesn't replace Mongoose is unlikely. To be a better aggro one drop than delver would almost have to read

"Sacrifice {this} if you control an Island"

Hungry Hungry Hippo - G
3/3

Islandwalk
Sacrifice {this} if you control an Island or a Swamp

[ahg113]

LOL.

I mean it's round and round. The chances of something better getting printed that just doesn't replace Mongoose is unlikely. To be a better aggro one drop than delver would almost have to read

"Sacrifice {this} if you control an Island"

Hungry Hungry Hippo - G
3/3

Islandwalk
Sacrifice {this} if you control an Island or a Swamp

My thoughts as well. But your card is still underpowered. It would have to read trample as well. Then it would be a bonafide card.

[nedleeds]

Man. Really Trample too? You are probably right, not being compatible with Island is Mold Demon level drawback.

[bakofried]

As mentioned: less focus on mana/power ratio and burn but moving more towards a Big Zoo/Maverick hybrid aka Nacatl, GSZ, mainboard solutions to combo/SFM in Form of Pridemage/Thalia/Teeg filled up with Bolts and Sylvan Library for reach, possibly with Tariff in MB or SB to battle TNN, Reanimator and S&T

Just from the top of my head



keep changing the questions once I present an answer?

I'm honestly surprised you didn't catch my earlier clarification.

[wcm8]

A big part of the problem with the power level of these new cards is that they haven't printed as many equally effective Hate cards. The Tempest block had some of the best: Choke, Perish, Light of Day, Price of Progress, etc.

All they need to do to keep the wheel spinning for a healthy metagame is throw us a bone with some decent hate. For starters they could simply color-shift a few existing cards.

Brimstone Elemental
2R
Creature - Elemental
Flash
Split Second
3/2
Blue creatures get +1/-1

(This guy could be Green instead, with the same effect. Perhaps being Green would be better. Sulfur Elemental's brother.)

Dread of Life
B
Enchantment
Green creatures get -1/-1

(perhaps this is too strong, but it's not like Dread of Night is ubiquitous, even with D&T being a tier 1 deck. This would just be insurance against Elves.)


Nihil Rod
2
Artifact
When ~this~ ETB, draw a card.
Activated abilities of planeswalkers and enchantments can't be activated.

(Finishes the cycle of Null Rod, Cursed Totem, and Tsabo's Web)

[TsumiBand]

You know it's a troll-ass post when someone goes "hurp Kird Ape + Lightning Bolt is all aggro players understand, hurp derp guys so sideways, derp derp burn things i don't even wurp durp" and then is like "you know what's cool though? Brainstorm, Emrakul, and Show and Tell. that's real Magic."

The insinuation that there's a smaller decision tree with an aggro deck almost misses the forest for the trees. I haven't seen a decent rebuttal to my assertion from earlier -- I submit that it's a bad sign when the same 16-20 Blue cards can be used to propel control, combo, and aggro with more or less similar levels of effectiveness.

You can't tell me that you can't build a decent list for all three major archetypes by starting with 4 Force, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Daze. The fact that you can continue to borrow against Blue to facilitate all these builds is not a good indicator for the future of the format, in terms of diversity or interest.

[bakofried]

A green creature with flying or reach that could duke it out with a Delver and not have otherwise limited applications would be nice. Closest we have is Scryb Ranger.

[mishima_kazuya]

What do you think it would take for Zoo to return to respectable performance levels?

IMO, it would take us going back a few years of power creep. The main issue is that creatures and permanents(planeswalkers, equipment, etc) have gotten much stronger over the years and nowadays every playable permanent card in almost every competitive format comes with built in card advantage(Jace, TMS/Thragtusk/Stoneforge Mystic) or virtual card advantage(Thalia/Deathrite Shaman).

So naturally vanilla creatures, which are the mainstay of Sligh-esque aggro decks, become less powerful. Opposing midrange decks only have to stall for a turn with a removal spell or some disruption and then take over the game with 2 for 1 value cards.

The same decrease in viability applies to classic control decks, since trying to 1 for 1 your opponent and then cast a value draw spell like Fact or Fiction won't work when your opponent starts creating card advantage or virtual card advantage as early as turn 1(Noble Hierarch/Mother of Runes).
Miracles is the exception since it adopts permanents that create card advantage(Counterbalance) and powerful creatures that disrupt and provide a clock for a low casting cost (Snapcaster/Vendilion Clique).

Obviously combo decks can withstand the power creep to an extent since you can just ignore what your opponent is doing.

[uncletiggy]

Is there a mod floating around that can retired this thread and the old ban restricted thread and start a new one with the current big offenders in a poll. The old thread is far from current id like to see snt delver tnn and maybe even ponder. Off the top of my head the only offensive non blue cards I can think of are led and terminus and they both feel fine.

[TsumiBand]

A green creature with flying or reach that could duke it out with a Delver and not have otherwise limited applications would be nice. Closest we have is Scryb Ranger.

You mean like Skylasher? That guy does a billion things, most of them anti-Blue, but still does nothing. You'd think it would have like eaten a Geist of St. Traft or some rando Merfolk or something by now, at least.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[bakofried]

Skylasher suffers from aforementioned limited applications.

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[Megadeus]

Zoo is actually pretty damn good vs the delver decks... The UWR ones are a bit tough, but I've found Zoo to have a really good MU vs delver. The problem is the deck is pretty horrid vs Miracles, and obviously bad vs combo. There are not too many hate bears that Zoo can play without having to make the Delver MU poor because Teeg is bad vs them.

Hateful Zoo
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia/Spirit of the Labyrinth?

4 Path
4 Bolt
2 Green Sun

22 Lands

[Lemnear]

You know it's a troll-ass post when someone goes "hurp Kird Ape + Lightning Bolt is all aggro players understand, hurp derp guys so sideways, derp derp burn things i don't even wurp durp" and then is like "you know what's cool though? Brainstorm, Emrakul, and Show and Tell. that's real Magic."

The insinuation that there's a smaller decision tree with an aggro deck almost misses the forest for the trees. I haven't seen a decent rebuttal to my assertion from earlier -- I submit that it's a bad sign when the same 16-20 Blue cards can be used to propel control, combo, and aggro with more or less similar levels of effectiveness.

You can't tell me that you can't build a decent list for all three major archetypes by starting with 4 Force, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Daze. The fact that you can continue to borrow against Blue to facilitate all these builds is not a good indicator for the future of the format, in terms of diversity or interest.

Would be nice if you quit shoving words in my mouth I've never said. I have no clue why I should be a troll if being asked for "other Aggro decks in history" and bring up a top performing example from the stone age when most combo pieces didn't saw print to hint that aggro has problems NOW and has to adapt to fight combo and efficient sweepers like Terminus.

I support the claim about the ever same blue core in most decks atm. I wonder however if the reason to the wide-spread play of that combinations is not mainly grounded on hyper-efficient, easy splashable cards like SFM (comes with the best removal Spell in Legacy), Goyf (he likes counter and cantrips to fill the grave) or threats that does not require a Splash at all like Delver/TNN/S&T.

The "blue core + combo/Aggro components at Wish = Successful deck" formula needs to adressed, but how good need non-splashable cards to become, that people start to think about putting away their blue core? RR 5/3 haste?


Is there a mod floating around that can retired this thread and the old ban restricted thread and start a new one with the current big offenders in a poll. The old thread is far from current id like to see snt delver tnn and maybe even ponder. Off the top of my head the only offensive non blue cards I can think of are led and terminus and they both feel fine.

The old poll stays there to remind people how stupid some calls for bans are at times and how peoples hate shifts between top performing cards forth and back. Now Delver is the offender, maybe SDT is again in the future, the hate towards S&T vanished (as seeing in this thread).

[Barook]

the hate towards S&T vanished (as seeing in this thread).
Just because people don't bitch 24/7 about S&T doesn't mean they don't hate its guts. It's a stupid, extremely linear strategy that adds nothing healthy to the format.

Plus, views about cards can change, depending on change of power levels and new hate cards.

Just take Goyf for example. I'd argue that its power level took a major hit with the introduction of Abrupt Decay, DRS and RiP in RtR. Now compare that to the months after the release where even Merfolk splashed green to run Goyf. Even Brainstorm would become more reasonable if Wizards printed a bunch of maindeckable hate cards (or extremely powerful sideboard cards). And no, SotL doesn't qualify for that.

[Lemnear]

Just because people don't bitch 24/7 about S&T doesn't mean they don't hate its guts. It's a stupid, extremely linear strategy that adds nothing healthy to the format.

Plus, views about cards can change, depending on change of power levels and new hate cards.

Just take Goyf for example. I'd argue that its power level took a major hit with the introduction of Abrupt Decay, DRS and RiP in RtR. Now compare that to the months after the release where even Merfolk splashed green to run Goyf. Even Brainstorm would become more reasonable if Wizards printed a bunch of maindeckable hate cards (or extremely powerful sideboard cards). And no, SotL doesn't qualify for that.

And because the POV's about cards change, we shoild keep the stupid poll like it is. Goyf took serious hits by Delver and SFM long before RtR imo.

[jimmythegreek]

Please tell me where I mentioned Goblins, a deck with mana denial, Tutors and cardadvantage engines? Right, I did not. I was talking about decks which contain neither of those decision-trees, but desire to run a maximum of functionally equal cards.

I was simply stating that decks which turn creatures sideways require as much thought and skill as other "skill intensive" decks. I could make a similiar case for many other aggro decks as well. Someone who is exceptional at math yet doesnt have an understanding of the decks in the format may find storm easier to pilot rather than a creature based deck. Last example might be a bit far fetched, its too easy to call aggro decks mindless though. I cant think of a deck in legacy that "just turns creatures sideways".

[Lord Seth]

Aggro decks are easy (http://cardboard-crack.com/post/77033131523/aggro-decks-are-easy), don't you know?

[TsumiBand]

Would be nice if you quit shoving words in my mouth I've never said. I have no clue why I should be a troll if being asked for "other Aggro decks in history" and bring up a top performing example from the stone age when most combo pieces didn't saw print to hint that aggro has problems NOW and has to adapt to fight combo and efficient sweepers like Terminus.

C'mon man, nobody's shoving words in your mouf.

I *do* think that the argument that people want 'dumb aggro' is akin to a strawman argument, because it evokes an image of an uninteractive pile of cards that can't reach across the table and do anything relevant, at all -- that kind of deck necessarily fails regardless of your archetype.


I support the claim about the ever same blue core in most decks atm. I wonder however if the reason to the wide-spread play of that combinations is not mainly grounded on hyper-efficient, easy splashable cards like SFM (comes with the best removal Spell in Legacy), Goyf (he likes counter and cantrips to fill the grave) or threats that does not require a Splash at all like Delver/TNN/S&T.

The "blue core + combo/Aggro components at Wish = Successful deck" formula needs to adressed, but how good need non-splashable cards to become, that people start to think about putting away their blue core? RR 5/3 haste?

I don't need to see a 5/3 for RR but as long as we're in fantasy land, switching the mana symbols on Reckless Waif and Delver of Secrets would be fine by me. That simple switch doesn't necessarily mean we don't have RUG Delver, but it rewrites history just enough that any aggressive non-Goblin list with Red can start dicking around with its card choices without playing a new color.

More to the point though, is I'm not asking for new printings -- and while Goyf/SFM are indeed splashable, that's not what makes the Blue shell inherently better. Printing aggressive creatures that rival the one-drops in more aggressive colors does extend the "Blue engine" into aggro in a more direct way, though -- so now instead of splashing for aggro and submitting themselves to the possibility of non-basic hate, they can roll an aggro hand on nothing but Islands in hand.

I mean, it's obvious right, but -- the Nacatl comparisons are apt here. Mono-green gets nothing out of Nacatl without duals in play, so the card isn't really very good unless you account for it. You have to build to acknowledge the card. Delver and Brainstorm though - that's such a no-brainer, you're playing goddamned Blue of course you play Brainstorm - so the creature is as aggressive as Nacatl, but instead of being rewarded for going out of your way to include more cards, you're being rewarded for doing what your Blue deck was already doing anyway. Green -- a color allegedly more fluent in aggro -- has to go outside itself to directly enable its best one-drop, but Blue makes no changes to its MO and gets a 3/2 flyer for U? Fuck that. That's someone's idea of a shitty joke. The fact that this kind of color pie transgression adds no credence to a call to examine it as a potential ban target is a disservice. I'd want a Green Lightning Bolt or a White Ponder stricken from the format in the same way, whether or not they 'broke' the format, for the same reason -- you cross the streams with colors and strengths like that, and you start just undermining the reason people even choose decks with more than one color. It's not about power level at that point.

[jimmythegreek]

Aggro decks are easy (http://cardboard-crack.com/post/77033131523/aggro-decks-are-easy), don't you know?

Thats great...inspired to play goblins again.

[morgan_coke]

The problem with Show and Tell, and the reason its so worthy of hate, is that it's a reanimation spell in blue (wrong color for reanimation) that lets you skip the whole "put creature in graveyard step" and also conveniently gets around all the anti-reanimation clauses wotc puts on the biggest, derpiest creatures they print like say... emrakul and progenitus.

Most of the really problematic problem cards in Legacy that are warping the format are Blue cards that should never have been blue in the first place - True Name Nemesis should be white on the protection is a white ability argument or green on the green's permanent's are the hardest to interact with on the board arguement. Show and Tell should be green because sharing is green, and so is getting giant dudes - see Hypergenesis and Eureka for evidence. Delver and Snapcaster should have both been red, flashback is more red than blue, and aggressive one drops are far more red than blue.

I would LOVE it if wotc banned Delver, TNN, and SnT all at once. I think it would really help format diversity a lot. Reanimator decks would have to go back to interacting with the graveyard, which decks of all colors have a much easier time interacting with, blue decks would lose a three mana moat that attacks for 3 unblockable, and the most aggressive one drop in the format would no longer be blue. RUG, BUG, etc. would all still exist, they'd just actually be different decks instead of the same deck with different removal spells. And many, many decks that currently get oppressed by the SnT decks (can't interact with the stack? you lose) would be able to come back out of the woodwork.

Far healthier and more diverse format overall. And by diverse I mean you would see T8's with something besides blue aggro shell, blue combo shell, blue control shell, random non blue deck that had it's one tournament to shine.

[Megadeus]

Show and tell is more like a3 mana ritual that makes 15 mana

[Finn]

I apologize for pushing the conversation into a rabbit hole, but I would not mind a way to make nonblue aggro an option in Legacy. I have had this conversation a lot of times and the current tacit thinking seems to be that RUG is Legacy aggro. That does not sit well with me for all the reasons about Delver that Tsumiband put so eloquently. There are a number of ways we could see this come back about. They can now easily print new cards that never see play in Standard. That's a really big deal. Wotc does not even have to find creative ways to hamper a card's power level when they appear in Commander sets. Legacy and even Vintage should be getting goodies in all of these sets.

To the point:

Wilder Nacatl
creature - Cat something
G
Wild Nacatl gets +1/+2 as long as you control a Mountain or a Plains.
Wild Nacatl gets +2/+1 as long as an opponent controls an Island.
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice an Island.
1/1

Not elegant in the least. But what would it take to dial aggro into the format again?
---------
Azurivore
creature - whatever
GR
Whenever an opponent casts an instant or sorcery spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Azurivore.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a -1/-1 counter on Azurivore.
2/2

Quite a bit more elegant. I don't even know that this would be good, but it is made for eternal formats. And red has been getting stuff like this recently.
---------
God, I hate Islands
Enchantment
1RR
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice God I hate Islands. If you do, target opponent chooses an Island on the battlefield. Destroy that permanent and God I hate Islands deals 4 damage to that permanent's controller.

Whatever. Blue should have to pay for the luxury of having the best filter, stack control, combo components, creature(s), etc. in the format.

[Barook]

To the point:

Wilder Nacatl
creature - Cat something
G
Wild Nacatl gets +1/+2 as long as you control a Mountain or a Plains.
Wild Nacatl gets +2/+1 as long as an opponent controls an Island.
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice an Island.
1/1

Not elegant in the least. But what would it take to dial aggro into the format again?
---------
Azurivore
creature - whatever
GR
Whenever an opponent casts an instant or sorcery spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Azurivore.
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a -1/-1 counter on Azurivore.
2/2

Quite a bit more elegant. I don't even know that this would be good, but it is made for eternal formats. And red has been getting stuff like this recently.
Without wanting to devolve this into another shitty card creation thread, a few points.

Wilder Nacatl's drawback could still be circumvented by running non-dual blue "duals". I like the idea of mashing Skyshroud Elite and Kird Ape together. If you want to go for that route, instead of sacrificing an Island, I would be more bold: "You can't play blue spells."

About Azurivore: Maro said they won't do +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters in the same block anymore. Doing it on the same card seems even more unlikely.

[BKclassic]

I just want to know why they can print True-Name Nemesis but they can't print a goblin for 2R that destroys an artifact when it comes into play.

[ahg113]

I just want to know why they can print True-Name Nemesis but they can't print a goblin for 2R that destroys an artifact when it comes into play.

Because Goblins aren't Blue?

[morgan_coke]

I just want to know why they can print True-Name Nemesis but they can't print a goblin for 2R that destroys an artifact when it comes into play.

To be fair, there are a LOT of goblins that destroy artifacts already, including one that does the "comes into play" thing for GR

[ahg113]

To be fair, there are a LOT of goblins that destroy artifacts already, including one that does the "comes into play" thing for GR

Tin-Street Hooligan

[Lord Seth]

And many, many decks that currently get oppressed by the SnT decks (can't interact with the stack? you lose) would be able to come back out of the woodwork.I've always found this claim to be a bit funny when Death & Taxes is one of the best decks in the format against Show and Tell

[Dice_Box]

Jund does not interact with the stack a whole lot. Manages to make you cry just fine on its own.

Also, this thread is the biggest shitfest I have seen in ages AND Pony is not here... come on guys.

[Zombie]

Show and tell is more like a3 mana ritual that makes 15 mana

And is a win con itself. If it was a ritual, you could let the ritual resolve and counter Griseltard or Omnidrool.

[TsumiBand]

I've always found this claim to be a bit funny when Death & Taxes is one of the best decks in the format against Show and Tell

Well, in fairness, making your opponent's spells cost more is *kind of* interacting with the stack. Ish. It makes the stack more hostile for your opponent, I guess? It's not the same, but it totally is.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[TsumiBand]

DnT also has the benefit of subverting all the "poop a Legendary into play" stuff with Karakas, which honestly seems like a happy accident. Would Karakas ever have been tried if not for Mangara? I dunno if someone would have put it in on a whim unless it had already been good somewhere else.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Bed Decks Palyer]

DnT also has the benefit of subverting all the "poop a Legendary into play" stuff with Karakas, which honestly seems like a happy accident. Would Karakas ever have been tried if not for Mangara? I dunno if someone would have put it in on a whim unless it had already been good somewhere else.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

I planned to play three to four Karakases in a brew I brewed several years ago. It was in a time when card was in a 10-15 USD range, unfortunately our lgs had none of them. It was before I even started to tinker with an idea to tinker with ebay and such, and it did not took long and Karakas was a 900 crowns affair. That was when I decided to not bother myself anymore; about the time when DnT became known. Known, not big. Now when he land costs over two thousand... bah.
A little pity. I'd love to have several Karakases just like I still got eight Tombs. Edit: five only.

[FieryBalrog]

Remember when Wizards cared about Legacy? I don't either.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, I remember. Goblin Bidding was a deck at the time.

[TsumiBand]

Yea, I remember. Goblin Bidding was a deck at the time.

See, I like that deck better when it was Zombies. Noxious Ghoul in the bin, sucks to be you brah

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Jerome]

It might just be the people I play against doing it wrong but Delver doesn't really bother me all that much. Then again, when you're running pox and small pox there's not much that does except artifacts and combo.

As a side note, the one thing I'd like to see unbanned is strip mine. Yes, i'm the kind of dick that enjoys blowing up land, and strip mine being legal would have the added bonus of bringing down the price of wasteland.

[Megadeus]

If you think Strip Mine should be unbanned then you should probably just delete your account.

[DragoFireheart]

As a side note, the one thing I'd like to see unbanned is strip mine.

This is without a doubt the worst post I have seen in the history of Magic: The Gathering. I've been looking for a reason to stop playing magic and this was enough to push me over the edge. I'm also considering never posting here again because what little faith I had in humanity was destroyed by this simple sentence.

[ahg113]

In defense of Jerome, who did make a silly* comment, LD could (in my opinion should) be pushed more than the nothing* it currently is. In a world where black and blue have disruption, red used to be up there as well (to a much lesser extent Green and Black). Blue counter, Black discard, Red land destruction. Those were all interference abilities, until it was decided that "un-fun" was a just reason to stop doing something (even though it's a weak argument today), and LD stopped being a pushed concept.

But an unbanned Stripmine makes Wastelands worthless and then Manaless Dredge will rule them all because all lands die, all the time. ESG and SSG (possibly Manamorphose), along with Lotus Bloom, LED, and Lotus Petal will all become $$$ * the sadness of no land games. Guess ANT becomes even more boss hog'ish.

Actually, unban Stripmine, I'm totally in favor of that now. Manaless Dredge and ANT vs. 4 Wasteland + 4 Stripmine.dec

[Megadeus]

4x Waste, 4x Strip would be hilariously miserable.

[lordofthepit]

It might just be the people I play against doing it wrong but Delver doesn't really bother me all that much. Then again, when you're running pox and small pox there's not much that does except artifacts and combo.

As a side note, the one thing I'd like to see unbanned is strip mine. Yes, i'm the kind of dick that enjoys blowing up land, and strip mine being legal would have the added bonus of bringing down the price of wasteland.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh9PToHOquI

[Megadeus]

Holy shit what a dunk. I'm surprised LeBron hasn't broken the glass yet. He slams it with some force.

[ShiftyKapree]

Quote Originally Posted by Jerome View Post

As a side note, the one thing I'd like to see unbanned is strip mine.



This is without a doubt the worst post I have seen in the history of Magic: The Gathering. I've been looking for a reason to stop playing magic and this was enough to push me over the edge. I'm also considering never posting here again because what little faith I had in humanity was destroyed by this simple sentence.

This post made me laugh uncontrollably dead ass serious

[Jander78]

This thread has deteriorated enough, please continue any B&R discussion in the original Banned and Restricted (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14662-All-B-R-update-speculation) discussion thread.