Banned Series - Caleb Durward CFB

[Higgs]

If you haven't seen this before, Caleb apparently has been putting up some videos testing banned cards against a Legacy gauntlet. I don't follow CFB usually because you can't filter their content based on format and it's too much of a hassle to sort through all their draft, standard and modern junk but I'm glad I didn't miss this one. It's basically him brewing a deck with a given banned card and battling it out with 3-4 Tier 1 Legacy decks. Both fun to watch and gives an idea about the power level of the said cards.

Spoiler: Survival is the nuts.

This one is just Bargain and Mana Drain but he has more:
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/the-banned-series-yawgmoths-bargain-and-mana-drain/

[SaberTooth]

i saw the bargain video yesterday. The list needs more tunning i guess, but the card is really powerfull

[Lemnear]

Fantastic how he had 19 life, Bargain in Play, 3 mana on demand and still is unable to kill his opponent

[Grand Superior]

I'm tempted to get a playset of Bargains now just on the extremely low chance that it ever gets unbanned. It's on the reserved list and would likely soar to at least $40 if it becomes legal. Plus, playing a storm deck that gets to run Force of Will would be sweet as hell.

[Lemnear]

I'm tempted to get a playset of Bargains now just on the extremely low chance that it ever gets unbanned. It's on the reserved list and would likely soar to at least $40 if it becomes legal. Plus, playing a storm deck that gets to run Force of Will would be sweet as hell.

That isn't the main attraction. It's more like running storm with 4 Ad Nauseam without giving a fuck about the converted cost of other Ad Nauseams revealed. This is that Bargain would do for storm

[PirateKing]

Apparently they do something similar in Japan, links to some decks, http://amclegacy.sakura.ne.jp/FSL1.html

Looks fun

[Higgs]

Although I admit that if any one of these cards (Bargain or Survival) were to be unbanned they'd reduce the diversity in the format a great deal, but given together they feel like what Magic should actually be.

I hope he does one with Frantic Search as well. It would be interesting to see what direction he'd go with Frantic Search (High Tide or a graveyard based combo) and how broken his brew could be.

[SirTylerGalt]

I hope he does one with Frantic Search as well. It would be interesting to see what direction he'd go with Frantic Search (High Tide or a graveyard based combo) and how broken his brew could be.

He should build Solidarity with Frantic Search / Snapcaster Mage / Snap for a reliable turn 3 kill :p

[Anen]

Fantastic how he had 19 life, Bargain in Play, 3 mana on demand and still is unable to kill his opponent

Can we unban Bargain please? xD

[Shawon]

I'd like to see an experimental MUD list with Mana Vault/Memory Jar.

[Lemnear]

I'd like to see an experimental MUD list with Mana Vault/Memory Jar.

You don't even need jar.

Sol Lands + Grim Monolith + Mana Vault + Voltaic Key + Lodestone Golemn + Trinisphere + Sphere of Resistance

[Higgs]

Could be wrong but that sort of MUD deck doesn't look more disruptive to me than the hateful D&T deck from the last BOM. You would be playing with lots of dead cards (a.k.a mana rocks) whereas almost every card in the D&T deck is a piece of disruption.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Could be wrong but that sort of MUD deck doesn't look more disruptive to me than the hateful D&T deck from the last BOM. You would be playing with lots of dead cards (a.k.a mana rocks) whereas almost every card in the D&T deck is a piece of disruption.

This is true. However, the amount of splooge possible on turn 1 in a deck with both Mana Vault and Grim Monolith is kind of absurd. "Turn 1 Karn Liberated, +4, pass turn". Not to mention reasonably consistent turn 1 Trinispheres. This deck sounds like fun actually.

[nedleeds]

Can we unban Bargain please? xD

We did.

http://magiccards.info/scans/ru/avr/106.jpg

[rufus]

This is true. However, the amount of splooge possible on turn 1 in a deck with both Mana Vault and Grim Monolith is kind of absurd. "Turn 1 Karn Liberated, +4, pass turn". Not to mention reasonably consistent turn 1 Trinispheres. This deck sounds like fun actually.

Or go another way with draw X cards and untap effects.

[Tyrio]

I like how in the Survival video the Show and Tell matchup took less than 5 minutes. Emrakul strong. His opponent in the BUG match also decided that never leaving mana up for his DRS against active Survival was a good idea.

[ShiftyKapree]

I think it's safe to unban Goblin Recruiter, it would make goblins viable again. Plus I always enjoyed goblins since the days of when it was U/W/X landstill and goblins were the tier 1 decks at the time.(ya along time ago). I don't want to see earthcraft come off because of enchantress. Yawg Bargain would just be too nuts. Maybe mental misstep to come off aswell, it would slow the format down where we can actually see some natural order lists again besides Elves, which I want to dust off and play again in bant. Also it would bring back KoTR possibly. The format is a bit stagnant right now imo. I hate how when DRS and abrupt decay came out it made a lot of decks not viable. Those two cards single handily killed any Bant list's and Maverick lists. The problem with legacy is mostly DRS it is just a huge pain in the ass for everyone. Lastly I would like to see Wordlgorger Dragon unbanned

[Barook]

The format is a bit stagnant right now imo. I hate how when DRS and abrupt decay came out it made a lot of decks not viable. Those two cards single handily killed any Bant list's and Maverick lists. The problem with legacy is mostly DRS it is just a huge pain in the ass for everyone.
The only thing DRS did is making KotR a shitty beater, but that's about it. Terminus is a way worse offender which single-handedly turned Maverick from THE deck to beat at its time to crap. And it's not like Maverick can't run DRS by itself.

The format is stagnant right now because

a) Delver is a stupid card and
b) the entire format is still in Anti-TNN mode, which is the reason why BUG Delver and Miracles are so dominant.


I like how in the Survival video the Show and Tell matchup took less than 5 minutes. Emrakul strong. His opponent in the BUG match also decided that never leaving mana up for his DRS against active Survival was a good idea.
The Survival list looked like tons of fun, but would probably be too strong for the format. I don't think the S&T match-up would be too bad, actually, with running 4 KotR + Karakas and maybe some SB hate.

[Final Fortune]

Really want to see him throw Clamp into Elves, Memory Jar Storm would also be pretty cool.

[Lemnear]

Really want to see him throw Clamp into Elves, Memory Jar Storm would also be pretty cool.

After seeing a few Videos from that series I'm sure that his results have no meaning. Questionable deckbuilding, horrible plays and goldfish opponents all over. I would not wonder if Clamp would look like Glimpse 5+ in Elves if played by him, not to talk about the deck being complex even without the challenge to fit in Clamp

[Higgs]

I don't think his videos carry any weight in terms of ban/unban discussions but I think it gives food for thought. He also says that his deckbuilding isn't optimal and he is not trying to prove anything. I think it's incredibly fun to watch though and still 10 times better than any discussion in the B/R thread.

[Lemnear]

I don't think his videos carry any weight in terms of ban/unban discussions but I think it gives food for thought. He also says that his deckbuilding isn't optimal and he is not trying to prove anything. I think it's incredibly fun to watch though and still 10 times better than any discussion in the B/R thread.

I just noticed that peeps start to use these to support their positions which is toxic imo

[rufus]

I just noticed that peeps start to use these to support their positions which is toxic imo

Dunno. He is demonstrating some of the capabilities of a card. I've got a bit more respect for Yawgmoth's Bargain after watching his video.

[Amon Amarth]

I just noticed that peeps start to use these to support their positions which is toxic imo

I don't know about that; I wouldn't say toxic. I don't see why people can't use it as evidence. Sure his decks aren't perfect and neither are his plays. And I don't agree with his conclusions but pick 5 cards on the B/R list and I'm certain everyone else will have a different opinion on them. In addition, it would take a significant amount of effort to really gauge the impact of even something like Goblin Recruiter which only fits in ONE deck. You have so many decks to test against and a lot of other cards are now viable when other synergistic cards enter the cardpool again. It's interesting, entertaining, and probably more productive than posting in the B/R thread.

But, seriously, can we just get Goblin Recruiter unbanned finally? I want to shit on people with Mountains and Taigas again.

[Lemnear]

I don't know about that; I wouldn't say toxic. I don't see why people can't use it as evidence. Sure his decks aren't perfect and neither are his plays. And I don't agree with his conclusions but pick 5 cards on the B/R list and I'm certain everyone else will have a different opinion on them. In addition, it would take a significant amount of effort to really gauge the impact of even something like Goblin Recruiter which only fits in ONE deck. You have so many decks to test against and a lot of other cards are now viable when other synergistic cards enter the cardpool again. It's interesting, entertaining, and probably more productive than posting in the B/R thread.

But, seriously, can we just get Goblin Recruiter unbanned finally? I want to shit on people with Mountains and Taigas again.

A lot depends on a personal acceptance level to draw conclusions from the vids as it has also a foundation on your own past experiences with the cards in question. I'm an old Type 1 player (later Vintage) who moved to Legacy as WotC wasn't give a fuck about Vintage anymore and saw most of the cards on the B&R list in action and dare saying that I might have a clue about which cards would be nuts within the current cardpool and which cards did not age well aka are outclassed and the picture given about some of the cards doesn't even cover the tip of the iceberg or completely missing the point altogether like it is with Goblin Recruiter which was rigorously abused as a Sheherazade aka stalling via game actions by restacking your deck for like 7 minutes every one or two turns. I would not like be a Judge here, deciding where stalling begins and where careful planning + strategic adjustments (in case of Recruiter #2 and #3 being cast) ends. Recruiter stayed banned till today not for being a super-matron but for logistic reasons

[Amon Amarth]

A lot depends on a personal acceptance level to draw conclusions from the vids as it has also a foundation on your own past experiences with the cards in question. I'm an old Type 1 player (later Vintage) who moved to Legacy as WotC wasn't give a fuck about Vintage anymore and saw most of the cards on the B&R list in action and dare saying that I might have a clue about which cards would be nuts within the current cardpool and which cards did not age well aka are outclassed and the picture given about some of the cards doesn't even cover the tip of the iceberg or completely missing the point altogether like it is with Goblin Recruiter which was rigorously abused as a Sheherazade aka stalling via game actions by restacking your deck for like 7 minutes every one or two turns. I would not like be a Judge here, deciding where stalling begins and where careful planning + strategic adjustments (in case of Recruiter #2 and #3 being cast) ends. Recruiter stayed banned till today not for being a super-matron but for logistic reasons

Recruiter was never banned for logistical reasons it was banned because they wanted creature decks in the format that weren't Goblins. It was too powerful. That's why it is banned. Wotc never said anything about it being abused in that way.

[Lemnear]

Recruiter was never banned for logistical reasons it was banned because they wanted creature decks in the format that weren't Goblins. It was too powerful. That's why it is banned. Wotc never said anything about it being abused in that way.

That is not was I said. I said it was never UNBANNED because of logistic reasons. It was banned during the time as the B&R lists were connected between formats and restrictions made in Type 1 because you could power out Recruiter and Food Chain in the first 2 turns had immediate consequences for Type 1.5 and 1.x. Recruiter stayed banned even after the split of the lists. WotC wanted to reduce the T1/2 kills in Vintage which was the reason for it's banning not some stupid push for other creatures, which is just wrong

[Dice_Box]

It needs to stay where it is. It just eats to much time. I love the card, I own the complete decklist, I just think it better off left alone.

[LeoCop 90]

I advocated so many times for recruiter being unbanned that right now the topic is starting to get old to me. If they want to keep him in the banned list, well just print some crazy goblin in the future and i'll be happy anyway.

[Amon Amarth]

That is not was I said. I said it was never UNBANNED because of logistic reasons. It was banned during the time as the B&R lists were connected between formats and restrictions made in Type 1 because you could power out Recruiter and Food Chain in the first 2 turns had immediate consequences for Type 1.5 and 1.x. Recruiter stayed banned even after the split of the lists. WotC wanted to reduce the T1/2 kills in Vintage which was the reason for it's banning not some stupid push for other creatures, which is just wrong

Wait, what? I'm honestly not sure I understand what you just said.

[Dice_Box]

He is saying that the reason the card went on the list was due to power, the reason the card stays on the list is due to logistical issues. That the card is no longer seen as too powerful, but it is still seen as a menace and thus is banned.

[Lemnear]

1) Recruiter enables turn 2 combos in Vintge powered by Moxen and stuff
2) B&R List was managed the following back then: Card restricted in Type 1 (Vintage) = Banned in Type 1.5 (Legacy)
3) Recruiter got restricted in Type 1 because WotC don't like T2 combos and restricted a whole lotta shit during that time
4) B&R lists got split in 2004 and Recruiter still remained on that list with a lot of cards that got later unrestricted. A lot of bias because of previous experiences with vintage formed that list
5) remained banned for the same logostical reasons that got Sheherazade banned in 2007

[Dice_Box]

5 is not totally true. Recruiter does not need 4 tables worth of space to work. Yes he is time consuming, but it's not quite the same thing.

[Lemnear]

5 is not totally true. Recruiter does not need 4 tables worth of space to work. Yes he is time consuming, but it's not quite the same thing.

Maybe "logistic reasons" are not sufficient to describe the "cards effect uses too much time in tournament play". I apologize

[GexxX]

5) remained banned for the same logostical reasons that got Sheherazade banned in 2007

If I remember correctly Mind's Desire was banned in Extended for a similar reason, besides the obvious raw power. However Desiring into Desire with about a hundred shuffles seems to be one of these logistic issues. Stacking a deck or shuffling it like crazy does look equally time-consuming on paper.

[Lemnear]

If I remember correctly Mind's Desire was banned in Extended for a similar reason, besides the obvious raw power. However Desiring into Desire with about a hundred shuffles seems to be one of these logistic issues. Stacking a deck or shuffling it like crazy does look equally time-consuming on paper.

At least, most players agreed on a shortcut to shuffle once and just flip over cards as long as no one wants to respond to a certain storm trigger aka casting an instant like Brainstorm flipped to Desire or the like, as shuffling between each flip basically has no effect on randomization


Edit: Desire was banned in Extended? I was never an Extended player and might have missed that. I only remember it's rotation

[FTW]

After seeing a few Videos from that series I'm sure that his results have no meaning. Questionable deckbuilding, horrible plays and goldfish opponents all over. I would not wonder if Clamp would look like Glimpse 5+ in Elves if played by him, not to talk about the deck being complex even without the challenge to fit in Clamp

This.

a) Sample size is too small
b) Opponents seem to have little interest in interacting with him or winning at Magic and every interest in making him look good to market his videos
c) He gets ridiculously lucky topdecking key combo pieces he has no way to find just when he needs them

In the cards' defense, he still manages to win despite punting several "gimme"s.

It's entertaining, but it also seems dangerous as misinformation. A lot of people will end up referencing his videos in saying X card should be banned because "...", when the videos don't actually answer any relevant questions, they're just pure entertainment. Since the B/R broken cards are such a hot topic, I don't get why they didn't just put a little more thought and effort into tuning and learning the decks before recording a video.

(I guess if a newer player had no idea at all how one of the banned cards could be used in a deck, it helps you visualize it a bit, but it doesn't necessarily show how dangerous the card is, how smoothly the deck would actually flow, or whether the format is equipped to interact with it)

[Megadeus]

Fwiw, I think the vieos have at least SOME merit. After all, actually playing the cards is better than the retarded banter that goes on in these forums daily about peoples pure speculation on a card that was banned 10+ years ago being overpowered in a world full of power creep.

[Amon Amarth]

1) Recruiter enables turn 2 combos in Vintge powered by Moxen and stuff
2) B&R List was managed the following back then: Card restricted in Type 1 (Vintage) = Banned in Type 1.5 (Legacy)
3) Recruiter got restricted in Type 1 because WotC don't like T2 combos and restricted a whole lotta shit during that time
4) B&R lists got split in 2004 and Recruiter still remained on that list with a lot of cards that got later unrestricted. A lot of bias because of previous experiences with vintage formed that list
5) remained banned for the same logostical reasons that got Sheherazade banned in 2007

Thanks for clarifying. :)

1. True but... what does this have to do with anything? A card being good in Vintage has no bearing on this format just like a card being amazing in Standard means nothing to Modern. Different formats.
2. I know. What does this have to do with Recruiter again? In Vintage, FCG was a deck a decade ago. It never was so good it warped the format in any way.
3. Uh... no? I'm certain that Recruiter was never restricted in Type 1. I played Vintage over a decade ago. I don't remember this at all.
4. When the lists split Recruiter got banned at that point not before.
5. This is pure conjecture. For whatever reason this is popular to say, which is pretty silly in a format with SDT. Pretty sure that inertia is a much more likely reason (or the fact that its still pretty silly) why it's still banned.

[BVB09]

Caleb we want more videos!
Please Mental Misstep Merfolks, it's probably the best deck to abuse it!

[Bryant Cook]

I'd like to see one on Mind's Desire. I bought a Japanese foil one in anticipation of it hopefully being unbanned. It's on the same power level for High Tide decks as Time Spiral and isn't better than Ad Nauseam in storm. I think it's likely a safe candidate, maybe Caleb can prove me wrong.

[Amon Amarth]

I'd like to see one on Mind's Desire. I bought a Japanese foil one in anticipation of it hopefully being unbanned. It's on the same power level for High Tide decks as Time Spiral and isn't better than Ad Nauseam in storm. I think it's likely a safe candidate, maybe Caleb can prove me wrong.

Desire seems like a pretty fun card in Storm decks because it works so differently than AdN and has different weaknesses too. Also that double UU is not as easy to produce as some would think. Probably best in the SB because of LED.