So, Judge Promo FoW

[Ellomdian]

Came here looking for discussion, was disappointed...

How about Dem Apples? (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Farcana%2F1489)

Don't get me wrong, I like the Hannah and the Elesh Norn too... But we finally have a Promo FoW.

$250? Discuss.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/arcana/arc1489_fow.jpg

UPDATE: Now that people are actually opening envelopes, it seems that you can get multiples. Haven't heard of anyone with more than 4 yet. Given that information, and the news that they are going to make these available again in the future, I stand by my numbers.

UPDATE 2: So maybe you can't get more than 8... and it's official that there "will be opportunities to get these in the future." Initial retailer price (SCG) is $999, while eBay auctions seem to be anywhere from $700-1000. Store buy prices seem to be ~$600. Given the number of L2's I know with a play set, and the number of 'inactive' judges who got them, I think people's estimates for distribution are way too low, and there are a LOT of them available right now. Even Judge-packet foils don't get dumped on the market in numbers like this during the first few weeks; I remain curious to see what happens after the initial demand of people who are willing to pay $1k ea is sated.

[Allcoin]

Old border feast and famine is also really nice

[Aesir]

This is far overdue.

[Tyrio]

Elesh Norn is really nice; could have been even better if old border.

[Lemnear]

Looks like the FoW's only going to the Judes who helped people join the Judge program since 2005. That damn card will be rare as shit! 2000$ the playset xP

Hanna and Elesh are beautiful cards even if the idea for the Phyrexian Siren isn't new. It's awesome from the perspective of creativity, but a Nightmare in tournament play

[Ellomdian]

Looks like the FoW's only going to the coordinators who helped people join the Judge program since 2005. Tjat damn card will be rare as shit! 2000$ the playset xP

Discussion suggests that it's going to judges who certified someone since 2005. Considering the judge expectation re-vamp a few years ago, there is a good chance that most L2's (as well as everyone above) should get one. I would expect distribution roughly in line with the Dark Confidant mailings based on the program growth since then. Not to say that will make them appreciably cheaper, but after the initial 90-day feeding frenzy, I wouldn't be surprised to see them pace that card, since (theoretically) there is more demand for the card you can also play in Modern.

While it's a very small (and inconclusive) sample size, I could get 4 right now from judges who I expect to be getting them at $300 a pop. I expect eBay to be in the $500 range until the pressure to sell gets to the more 'casual' judges, at which point the natural market pressure should drive them down considerably.

Then again, this is the theoretical holy grail of (realistic) promos, and we really only have a few cards to base speculation on (IE, Bob, the D-Tutor (for the first 3 months of it's life) and possibly the Fetches/Clique)

[Nuke is Good]

I like that promo FoW and Elesh Norn.

I REALLY like that FoW art, just one would be enough.

[DLifshitz]

Promo FoW.

Good news, but not that great in terms of added supply, if I understand correctly. If they have 5000 judges and the promo FoW is only being sent to those who had certified other judges since 2005, that means at most 2500 copies of the promo in existence, right? And probably far fewer than that.

[Grand Superior]

This is going to be sought after by EVERY Legacy player that pimps their decks. Force of Will is often the only card that isn't foiled due to, well, a lack of a foil version until now.

I'm glad I don't care for foils. This will be absurdly expensive and scarce.

[BVB09]

Is there any judge taht could explain us how the Gift program works?
I mean how many cards do you normally receive, when do you receive them... etc

Also it's strange that the spoiled all this year promos at once, judges won't be getting some of them until Nov-Dec, right?

[snorlaxcom]

So many foil edh generals... Why? What trash.

[SpikeyMikey]

Good news, but not that great in terms of added supply, if I understand correctly. If they have 5000 judges and the promo FoW is only being sent to those who had certified other judges since 2005, that means at most 2500 copies of the promo in existence, right? And probably far fewer than that.

A quick scan of Judge Apps shows ~1100 judges L2 or above. Assuming it's 1 to each certifying judge (and not 1 per judge certified, which would be double or triple that number), that puts your cap at around half as common as an Alpha rare. It's also the most iconic card in the game that's not on the reserved list. I think the estimates of $250-$300 are low. You've got what, 20,000 of each Legends rare? The Abyss is $200, Moat is $300 and Tabernacle is $600. And those are 20 times more common than foil Forces are going to be. Confidant is still given out from time to time for special things; I don't think Bob is nearly as rare.

[Adryan]

I'm willing to pay 350$ per card but with the expected printrun i don't expect to get one for under 1000 $.

It really would be a shame if this card is not handed out as a normal Judge Reward.

[aluisiocsantos]

Also the card looks really bad, illustration-wise. The border doesn't help either. They should've made it like old card but foil. Like they did with Bob and etc.

[Adryan]

I think the old Force of Will is one of the most ugliest magic cards ever printed. One can't argue about taste ;)

[BVB09]

I think the old Force of Will is one of the most ugliest magic cards ever printed. One can't argue about taste ;)

Completely agree. A blue card that's completely red, what a monster. At least this art shows a bit of contrast (not that I love it though)
Also as an art piece is one of the worst arts from Terese Nielsen, from my point of view.

[Einherjer]

...but it's still iconic. And that's what it's all about.

Greetings

[Richard Cheese]

I think the old Force of Will is one of the most ugliest magic cards ever printed. One can't argue about taste ;)

Whaaaaat? The original art is awesome! The new one is just generic, and the border/foil make it all Pokefail.

Old border sword is hot though, minus the foil.

[HSCK]

There's also the chance that it will see wider circulation later like next year's packets.

[Koby]

New frame, foiled out, shit for art. PASS.

Now let's talk about that Sword of Feast and Famine...

[Megadeus]

I think it's hilarious about how much discussion that a card that get all 4 copies boarded out in 60% of matches is.

New art is meh. Shooting star is Fugly. Foil is boo. I predict 400 (in the long term). Short term probably more like 700

Also Old art for force is sweet.

[Dice_Box]

I like the MTGO art. Granted I have a set of Force already and only play them in fish so I do not like it at 400, but I like the art all the same.

[aluisiocsantos]

This art could just be like any counter spell ever.. Just name it. Dispel, Unspell, Dispell, Spell-Whatever. The composition is boring as fuck, so is the pallete - All that red before just becomes beautiful agains a blue frame. Now it's just EVERYTHING in blue. Mehhhhhhhh

And the new border just makes it even more generic-looking.

[Megadeus]

Same with the new Show and Tell. At least the old art was kinda wonky and colorful.. Now its: This card is blue. Draw something and color it blue.

[Higgs]

Oh man, this is such an annoying trend with recent art. DRS, this card is a green/black elf with death in its name, so draw an elf with skulls and paint it greenish blackish.

[death]

ikr

[.dk]

New frame, foiled out, shit for art. PASS.

Now let's talk about that Sword of Feast and Famine...

Yes... that sword is awesome! Can we PLEASE get an old border Gitaxian Probe while we're at it?

[Deviruchi]

Thank God I don't collect foil counterspells. Oh crap...


Yes... that sword is awesome! Can we PLEASE get an old border Gitaxian Probe while we're at it?

In Phyrexian language, ok?

[Erdvermampfa]

I'm rather let down seeing Force of Will to be printed as Judge Foil because it basically destroys all hope that we will ever see a regular reprint. Now it takes its spot alongside other 'antiquitated' cards that have been printed as JP and represent an forgone time like Show and Tell, Sneak Attack etc.

[.dk]

In Phyrexian language, ok?

Sure if you want. I would rather it be "Beta-ized" myself

[FTW]

Who wants to certify me as a judge? Pay me $100 for dibs and get your free FoW.

[Koby]

Who wants to certify me as a judge? Pay me $100 for dibs and get your free FoW.

The article reads "In recognition of this milestone, we sent promotional premium Force of Will out to judges who had certified other judges after 2005."

So being a judge isn't sufficient requirement. You had to have certified other judges.

[cogitoergosum]

That Sword of Feast and Famine and Elesh Norn are sick

[BVB09]

Helene Bergeot @HeleneBergeot
@bmemike There'll be more opportunities for judges to get the card in the future

Helene Bergeot ‏@HeleneBergeot
@DeathriteChamon Not this time, but there'll be more opportunities for judges to get access to this promo card


:D

[lordofthepit]

Whaaaaat? The original art is awesome! The new one is just generic, and the border/foil make it all Pokefail.

Old border sword is hot though, minus the foil.

This man is in the X-0 bracket on this post alone.

[Scott]

I'm going to destroy all the computerized paintbrushes in WotC's art department.

[Barook]

The new art is subpar compared the iconic original, but as a MODO player, I can tell you that you'll get used to it.

And that Elesh Norn is gorgeous.

[snorlaxcom]

I'm rather let down seeing Force of Will to be printed as Judge Foil because it basically destroys all hope that we will ever see a regular reprint. Now it takes its spot alongside other 'antiquitated' cards that have been printed as JP and represent an forgone time like Show and Tell, Sneak Attack etc.

Naw. Entomb was in a box set, so it can still happen especially with this limited supply that's not intended on helping the availability anyway. Wotc likes creature spamming not counterspells, so I find it hard to believe it would ever be in product form like stoneforge or catacombs. I don't see why people want a reprint of this if there are complaints of blue duals rising in stock value. The limiting factor are the duals, not the spells and a force reprint will just ensure the rise of the duals since blue shells would be more accessible.

[btm10]

Yes... that sword is awesome! Can we PLEASE get an old border Gitaxian Probe while we're at it?

Can we just go back to old borders for everything?

[YamiJoey]

The article reads "In recognition of this milestone, we sent promotional premium Force of Will out to judges who had certified other judges after 2005."

So being a judge isn't sufficient requirement. You had to have certified other judges.

Yes, so you could charge someone $100 to certify you, because they're be getting a grand in return.

[lyracian]

Personally I prefer the MODO art. If there is a wider distribution later and I win one I would keep it but I am not however going to spend a few hundred dollars to get one since it will not in any way enhance my chance of winning.

[TsumiBand]

I'm surprised at how surprised I am at the reaction to this card.

Isn't this one of the "if you reprint anything..." cards that we keep saying needed to happen? The hell you doing worrying about what border the card has; it's a legal Force of Will reprint.

No wonder Legacy players feel slighted by WotC - if they throw us a bone we piss all over it for not being a steak. And if it *is* a steak, it isn't sirloin, unless it is, in which case it isn't Kobe. I wouldn't print cards for me either.

I'd just as soon see the card reprinted with a hand-drawn image of Jonathan Frakes, as long as it's legal. What, you thought they'd drop it in a Core Set?

Winning my playset of FoWs is one of my favorite moments in the game, don't misunderstand me I don't have my hand out on this particular card. And I get it, ain't nothing like the real thing -- but sheeeeeeesh you guuuuuuuys, it's a Force of Will reprint. Get real mad about it.

[Juice11]

I'm surprised at how surprised I am at the reaction to this card.

Isn't this one of the "if you reprint anything..." cards that we keep saying needed to happen? The hell you doing worrying about what border the card has; it's a legal Force of Will reprint.

No wonder Legacy players feel slighted by WotC - if they throw us a bone we piss all over it for not being a steak. And if it *is* a steak, it isn't sirloin, unless it is, in which case it isn't Kobe. I wouldn't print cards for me either.

I'd just as soon see the card reprinted with a hand-drawn image of Jonathan Frakes, as long as it's legal. What, you thought they'd drop it in a Core Set?

Winning my playset of FoWs is one of my favorite moments in the game, don't misunderstand me I don't have my hand out on this particular card. And I get it, ain't nothing like the real thing -- but sheeeeeeesh you guuuuuuuys, it's a Force of Will reprint. Get real mad about it.


Reprinting is great, especially Force of Will. But I have a feeling people who have been wanting reprints of FOW and other legacy staples also are concerned about card prices. This card will easily go for 300+ dollars and only go up from there. While this is functionally a reprint, it will not reduce the cost of FOW's at all. Which is what some people may be a little unhappy about, art and border aside.

[Richard Cheese]

Reprinting is great, especially Force of Will. But I have a feeling people who have been wanting reprints of FOW and other legacy staples also are concerned about card prices. This card will easily go for 300+ dollars and only go up from there. While this is functionally a reprint, it will not reduce the cost of FOW's at all. Which is what some people may be a little unhappy about, art and border aside.

Yeah, the problem is that it's not going to have any measurable effect on availability and therefore prices, which is what most people see as the biggest threats to the format's health. Since it's doing nothing for the format, I am now completely justified in focusing on the fact that it looks shitty.

[FTW]

The article reads "In recognition of this milestone, we sent promotional premium Force of Will out to judges who had certified other judges after 2005."

So being a judge isn't sufficient requirement. You had to have certified other judges.

I meant "which judge that has not yet certified another judge would like to certify me as their 1st judge certified so that they, not me, can get a FoW".

I'm assuming there are a number of judges out there that have not certified other judges since 2005 (otherwise all judges would get it).

[Koby]

Yes, so you could charge someone $100 to certify you, because they're be getting a grand in return.

I don't think you read that correctly. You (as the Level 2 Judge), have to have certified a new Level 1 Judge, in order to qualify for this "reward". It's already been processed and in the mail. Taking kick backs for judge certifications is kind of a moot point at this time, since it won't affect the current mailing.

[twndomn]

First of all, If WotC doesn't care about Vintage and Legacy, why would they bother with Reprint? Obviously when there's enough demand, they take action, this is a Good thing.

Now, how would they execute a reprint without plummeting original cards' pricing in the secondary market? Well.., apparently DCI judge Foil can do that and it's been done in the past. There're couple ways for WotC to reprint:
FTV <insert a word here>, that's where Jace reprint came from.
DCI judge, that's where FoW reprint will come from.

Whenever and however WotC decides to inject new supplies of Vintage/Legacy playable cards into the secondary market, people should applaud. Don't get caught up on how it is done, be Grateful they're at least taking steps. Certainly there can be improvement down the road, like Legacy Master (just like Modern Master was such a hit). Bashing WotC hastily is the same as bitch whining.


Reprinting is great, especially Force of Will. But I have a feeling people who have been wanting reprints of FOW and other legacy staples also are concerned about card prices. This card will easily go for 300+ dollars and only go up from there. While this is functionally a reprint, it will not reduce the cost of FOW's at all. Which is what some people may be a little unhappy about, art and border aside.

You don't know that for fact. Some people might opt to "foil out" their decks, which includes FoW. In that case, these people might trade-in (upgrade) their non-foil FoW back to the market, thus increasing the supply.

[PirateKing]

First of all, If WotC doesn't care about Vintage and Legacy, why would they bother with Reprint?

That's not the purpose of Judge Rewards at all. They're actually to reward judges. (the hint is in the name) Since Wizard's isn't going to pay Judges, they give them rewards that cost Hasboro $0.0000000001, and in turn, they players pay the Judges $300 for. So Wizards gets free labor and the Judges get paid. And this beautiful system only works if they print cards worth significance, hence Force of Will. Wizards' doesn't give a damn what it will do beyond motivate the judges to keep working without a salary.

[twndomn]

That's not the purpose of Judge Rewards at all. They're actually to reward judges. (the hint is in the name) Since Wizard's isn't going to pay Judges, they give them rewards that cost Hasboro $0.0000000001, and in turn, they players pay the Judges $300 for. So Wizards gets free labor and the Judges get paid. And this beautiful system only works if they print cards worth significance, hence Force of Will. Wizards' doesn't give a damn what it will do beyond motivate the judges to keep working without a salary.

They could have easily print more DCI Goyf, more DCI Liliana, more DCI standard stuff, but they didn't. They picked a Legacy specific card. Things happened for a reason. You overlooked my point, I understand what the purpose of Judge reward is. I am referring to the choice. Wizard does give a damn on the card choice of what's being reprinted in DCI Judge, because eventually these cards will flow into the secondary market.

[Juice11]

You don't know that for fact. Some people might opt to "foil out" their decks, which includes FoW. In that case, these people might trade-in (upgrade) their non-foil FoW back to the market, thus increasing the supply.


I don't particularly care either way, I was just pointing the possible thought process of some people who may be upset.

Bottom line, there is still a finite amount of FOW's in existence and it's demand will not drop. From this, you can make an educated guess that this "reprinting" will not drop the price of FOW. Realistically, how many copies of FOW will be injected back into the market by players trading them in for the judge promos? My guess is not nearly enough to drop the price.

Judge foils aren't the same as limited print run products like MM or FTV. There are not nearly as many in existence and don't have nearly as much effect on magics secondary market.


Just my 2 cents.

[PirateKing]

They could have easily print more DCI Goyf, more DCI Liliana, more DCI standard stuff, but they didn't. They picked a Legacy specific card. Things happened for a reason. You overlooked my point, I understand what the purpose of Judge reward is. I am referring to the choice. Wizard does give a damn on the card choice of what's being reprinted in DCI Judge, because eventually these cards will flow into the secondary market.

Nah, just because the cards will eventually flow into the secondary market doesn't correlate to them caring to anything. The fact that they are valued in the secondary market earns their justification for printing, only to give the best value to judges with minimal effort exerted. Why they are valued, what happens to them after they get distributed to Judges, these are inconsequential to the whole exercise.

[Scott]

No wonder Legacy players feel slighted by WotC - if they throw us a bone we piss all over it for not being a steak. And if it *is* a steak, it isn't sirloin, unless it is, in which case it isn't Kobe. I wouldn't print cards for me either.

WotC doesn't print cards for us because we're mean? Please.

[TsumiBand]

WotC doesn't print cards for us because we're mean? Please.

You mean, a business that has the choice of feeding the Standard "2 years and done" player with whatever carefully constructed format they roll out or trying to inject something into an older, harder-to-tame format wherein people still bitch about the border color of their cards won't take notice when the customer base in the latter is primarily snarky when product that's aimed at them doesn't meet their seal of approval? PLEEZ. PLEEEEEEZ

Look I realize they throw us a bone from time to time, what else are the last series of BG cards to make a splash? There's no way they didn't see what they did there with Abrupt Decay. However, it strikes me as disingenuous to have a community which grumbles about the lack of format pillars like Wasteland and Force, and then when they get them even as limited edition Judge foils, get to whining about the art. I mean, I know what happens when I run out and buy my kid a new video game only to hear her piss and moan about it a day later. We don't have to kiss any ass or anything, but poo-pooing the borders is just picayune.

[twndomn]

I don't particularly care either way, I was just pointing the possible thought process of some people who may be upset.

Bottom line, there is still a finite amount of FOW's in existence and it's demand will not drop. From this, you can make an educated guess that this "reprinting" will not drop the price of FOW. Realistically, how many copies of FOW will be injected back into the market by players trading them in for the judge promos? My guess is not nearly enough to drop the price.

Judge foils aren't the same as limited print run products like MM or FTV. There are not nearly as many in existence and don't have nearly as much effect on magics secondary market.

Just my 2 cents.

Precisely, I certainly can see your point. This is how WotC can say:
1. Hey, we reprinted Legacy staple, price didn't drop, you collectors can't get angry at us.
2. Hey, we reprinted Legacy staple to increase the supply, even if it's just a little, you Legacy-wannabe-but-too-poor-to-afford cannot blame us. We do care about Eternal formats.

This is a compromise from WotC's business sense. Do we prefer the alternatives, which is WotC doing nothing at all?

[Scott]

You mean, a business that has the choice of feeding the Standard "2 years and done" player with whatever carefully constructed format they roll out or trying to inject something into an older, harder-to-tame format wherein people still bitch about the border color of their cards won't take notice when the customer base in the latter is primarily snarky when product that's aimed at them doesn't meet their seal of approval? PLEEZ. PLEEEEEEZ

Look I realize they throw us a bone from time to time, what else are the last series of BG cards to make a splash? There's no way they didn't see what they did there with Abrupt Decay. However, it strikes me as disingenuous to have a community which grumbles about the lack of format pillars like Wasteland and Force, and then when they get them even as limited edition Judge foils, get to whining about the art. I mean, I know what happens when I run out and buy my kid a new video game only to hear her piss and moan about it a day later. We don't have to kiss any ass or anything, but poo-pooing the borders is just picayune.

So less whining --> more printings?

[Richard Cheese]

You mean, a business that has the choice of feeding the Standard "2 years and done" player with whatever carefully constructed format they roll out or trying to inject something into an older, harder-to-tame format wherein people still bitch about the border color of their cards won't take notice when the customer base in the latter is primarily snarky when product that's aimed at them doesn't meet their seal of approval? PLEEZ. PLEEEEEEZ

Look I realize they throw us a bone from time to time, what else are the last series of BG cards to make a splash? There's no way they didn't see what they did there with Abrupt Decay. However, it strikes me as disingenuous to have a community which grumbles about the lack of format pillars like Wasteland and Force, and then when they get them even as limited edition Judge foils, get to whining about the art. I mean, I know what happens when I run out and buy my kid a new video game only to hear her piss and moan about it a day later. We don't have to kiss any ass or anything, but poo-pooing the borders is just picayune.

Nobody from WotC reads the Source, let us have our fun! That art is mega dildos.

[Barook]

Nah, just because the cards will eventually flow into the secondary market doesn't correlate to them caring to anything. The fact that they are valued in the secondary market earns their justification for printing, only to give the best value to judges with minimal effort exerted. Why they are valued, what happens to them after they get distributed to Judges, these are inconsequential to the whole exercise.
If they actually wanted to "pay" Judges properly, they would throw in more money cards instead of crap like Greater Good. I don't care whether or not it's EDH crap, the value is going to suck.

Imagine a Judge Brainstorm with sweet art or an old-bordered Ice Age foil Brainstorm. That's some serious money right there.

[PirateKing]

If they actually wanted to "pay" Judges properly, they would throw in more money cards instead of crap like Greater Good. I don't care whether or not it's EDH crap, the value is going to suck.

Imagine a Judge Brainstorm with sweet art or an old-bordered Ice Age foil Brainstorm. That's some serious money right there.

Well like all things they do, they have to mix the good and the bad. Just like with card design, they can't all be good cards.

[Barook]

Well like all things they do, they have to mix the good and the bad. Just like with card design, they can't all be good cards.
Well, they can look at card prices and go "Yup, this is going to sell well." They can't introduce cards that cause a power creep, so all cards can be good. And by doing unique stuff, they guarantee high collector value without hurting existing cards.

If anything, they should do MORE cool promo stuff. It doesn't cost them jackshit to produce said stuff.

[TsumiBand]

Ha, no, I don't think less whining == better reprints, it's just amazing to watch this ecosystem sometimes.

"WE WANT MOAR CARDS"

*gets cards*

"...NO NOT THESE CARDS"

[PirateKing]

Well, they can look at card prices and go "Yup, this is going to sell well." They can't introduce cards that cause a power creep, so all cards can be good. And by doing unique stuff, they guarantee high collector value without hurting existing cards.

If anything, they should do MORE cool promo stuff. It doesn't cost them jackshit to produce said stuff.

I'm just trying to illustrate that the reprinting of Force of Will has as little to do with Wizard's vested interest in Legacy as the reprint of Hanna, Ship's Navigator has to do with their interest in Invasion Block Constructed.

[LOLWut]

Ha, no, I don't think less whining == better reprints, it's just amazing to watch this ecosystem sometimes.

"WE WANT MOAR CARDS"

*gets cards*

"...NO NOT THESE CARDS"

More like:

"WE WANT MOAR CARDS"

*doesn't get cards, gets a tiny number of cards*

"OH WELL, THE ARTISTIC ELEMENT SUCKS TOO"

-------------

What the fuck are you on about? Let's talk about the ecosystem of your brain.

[Ellomdian]

Nobody from WotC reads the Source, let us have our fun! That art is mega dildos.

Good (-ish?) News, I can confirm this is blatantly false.

Can't say why of course :)

Also, updated the first post with new info...

[ivanpei]

To be honest, as a fellow pimp fanatic, I was major butthurt by these when they were announced. This was because I put a ton of effort and cash into getting signed Forces. Then I got German ones. And finally I decided to splash money to get mine altered by a professional mtg artist.

Then all of a sudden a foil one comes out and I'm like f***. But since I have the altered ones, I'll probably stick to them since they are one of a kind. For those with German Force or Wills, sucks to be you. Looks like you're gonna have to get these Judge ones and it's going to cost a bomb!!!

[Esper3k]

Yeah as one of the foil guys, I'm happy to finally have a foil FoW, but man it's going to be a pretty penny to get a set...

[miguelmatix]

I m the only one here that does not like this foil FOW? I wouldnt trade originals for this shit...

IF the card had the original art plus the old blue frame we could talk about it.

Among those new judge foils, the best are the elesh norn and the sword.

Peace

[twndomn]

I'm confused, people here hate the card, but people with money to spend disagree.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191169960823

[Barook]

I'm confused, people here hate the card, but people with money to spend disagree.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191169960823
Over 1000$ already?

HOLY SHIT! :eek:

[lordofthepit]

I m the only one here that does not like this foil FOW? I wouldnt trade originals for this shit...

IF the card had the original art plus the old blue frame we could talk about it.

Among those new judge foils, the best are the elesh norn and the sword.

Peace

I have three problems with the promo FOW, in decreasing order:

1) It's post-Mirrodin bordered
2) It's foil
3) The art sucks

[Ellomdian]

I'm confused, people here hate the card, but people with money to spend disagree.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191169960823

No clue what's going on with these auctions - I've already had 2 move locally at $500/ea, I guess the ebay rule is going to stipulate the price for a few weeks. Also, I have a hard time believing that serious buyers are running up the price this early - I don't know many ebay vets who would be willing to drive the price before a few hours from the end of the auction.

Whatever some idiot with too much money is willing to pay, I suppose :cry:

[Barook]

No clue what's going on with these auctions - I've already had 2 move locally at $500/ea, I guess the ebay rule is going to stipulate the price for a few weeks. Also, I have a hard time believing that serious buyers are running up the price this early - I don't know many ebay vets who would be willing to drive the price before a few hours from the end of the auction.

Whatever some idiot with too much money is willing to pay, I suppose :cry:
The 1200$ bid was retracted, though, so it's back to 400$.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

6 months down the road, that $1200 bid is going to look pretty damn good if you ask me. Approximately 1,100 foil Force of Wills are going to be issued if the math done in another thread is accurate, that's exactly 1/2 a drop in the bucket as far as demand goes. I think roughly 12 people world-wide are going to be able to boast a full playset. Less than that by a large margin will play them. Like 3 people maybe. This is stupid. I'm getting bored with magic due to the difficulty of getting cool cards. I remember when I was buying/trading for full lists for what my mana bases cost now, or LESS. I traded Bobs away at 8 bucks, because that's what they were worth. If Bob was just printed in RTR instead of Ravnica, it's price would never have been 8. EVER. It would have started around 40 upon ebay pre-orders and gone out of control from there. Wasteland as well. At the beginning of the "bitching about prices" thread, it begins by "So wasteland just went clear up to 25 bux each". LOL. It's a smokin' hot $100 each uncommon. JESUS TITS, MAN.

Point is, if you can get one of these foil Force of Wills for under 800, do it. Sell your car. Or your first-born. Or both. In the end, it'll pay off.

-ABC

EDIT: The auction says under 1,000 mailed out. LMAO. Good god, they did it ONLY because they could. I hope I play against someone with 4 of them in their list. I'm going to pick them up and read them :eek:. They will most likely stroke out.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

Helene Bergeot said there would be more opportunities for judges to receive it. I wouldn't worry about getting them right away.

[ivanpei]

Helene Bergeot said there would be more opportunities for judges to receive it. I wouldn't worry about getting them right away.

This exactly. With the very likely reprints that are bound to come, I have a feeling the Judge Force of Will price trend will go the way of non foil legacy staples ala Karakas. Stupidly high judge Fow prices initially. Then settling down to between pimpest non foil and non pimp non foil.

English Karakas/German Fow>> Judge Karakas/ Judge Fow>> Italian Karakas/ English Fow.

[Poron]

cool things are cool because few people can have it

[death]

I'm confused, people here hate the card, but people with money to spend disagree.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/191169960823


Over 1000$ already?

HOLY SHIT! :eek:


Hasn't anyone ever heard of the term 'shill' bidding?

[Bryant Cook]

Hasn't anyone ever heard of the term 'shill' bidding?

eBay frowns upon that pretty heavily, especially since they have a feature that sets the minimum someone can bid on an item. A guy here in Syracuse supposedly had his account locked or something along those lines for "shill" bidding.

[SpikeyMikey]

This exactly. With the very likely reprints that are bound to come, I have a feeling the Judge Force of Will price trend will go the way of non foil legacy staples ala Karakas. Stupidly high judge Fow prices initially. Then settling down to between pimpest non foil and non pimp non foil.

English Karakas/German Fow>> Judge Karakas/ Judge Fow>> Italian Karakas/ English Fow.

Except Karakas was part of a judge packet. Also, a lot of decks that run Karakas only NEED 1 Karakas, not a playset. That is not the case with Force, where 3 is pretty much the minimum you're ever going to main if you're running it (and you probably have 4 in the 75 somewhere). Looking at the number of judges for GP Chicago next month, there will be 176 of each judge foil in the packets given out there. That's probably a pretty reasonable number to use as a baseline. And there's a GP pretty much every weekend and some weekends have 2 GPs. That makes foil Karakas many times more common than foil Force of Will. They said that foil Force of Will will be available to judges through other means in the future but that it will not be in a packet. So you may see them given out as gifts to presenters at judge conferences or thank you gifts to RCs or something similar. The initial mailing will be a flood compared to the trickle of what you're going to see going forward.

I can tell you this. I like the art. I'm sure there are other people out there that like it too, and it's the only foil version of Force in existence. There are more Alpha Black Lotuses than foil Force of Wills. If you think that the price of an altered/signed Force is going to settle higher than the price of a foil Force, I think you're doing your math wrong. I'm not even sure that I want to sell mine for the $1,000 that the Buy-It-Nows on eBay are going for. I'm thinking I'll wait a couple of weeks for the price to go up higher as the initial supply disappears and they get *really* hard to find.

[ivanpei]

We'll see, who knows how much they will reprint it. It really depends on how wizards distributes these in that case. If they are definitely as rare as you say they are I definitely believe the 1k price tag. However there is still the risk it will be reprinted alot.

Sent from my C6802 using Tapatalk

[somethingdotdotdot]

I dont think they'll reprint this exact one again; however, I could see a different one seeing print sometime in the future.

[Lord Seth]

I m the only one here that does not like this foil FOW? I wouldnt trade originals for this shit...Why would you not trade a $100 card for one worth multiple times that amount? You can sell the new one, then buy the old one again with the profit you made!

[lordofthepit]

Why would you not trade a $100 card for one worth multiple times that amount? You can sell the new one, then buy the old one again with the profit you made!

If I weren't allowed to trade away or sell the foil Force of Will (i.e. if we disregard its price on the secondary market), I would rather have one original Force of Will than two judge promos.

In cases where I've had the option of getting a non-foil card vs. a cheaper foil card (e.g. Wurmcoil Engine, Emrakul, Figure of Destiny, Karakas, Maze of Ith, Elspeth), I have always opted for the non-foil even if it cost more. The only exceptions have been when the price difference is dramatic (Loyal Retainers, Imperial Recruiter).

[thecrav]

SCG stocked four of them today at 999.99 each. Bleiweiss commented on Twitter that he expects they'll go quickly.

[Ellomdian]

Updated first post.

Anyone have REAL evidence of a judge (intentionally) getting more than 8?

[twndomn]

SCG stocked four of them today at 999.99 each. Bleiweiss commented on Twitter that he expects they'll go quickly.

this is so stupid~~ :mad:
I'm allowed to say fuck in this instance, this card is owning all the Eternal format collectors and players.

[cdr]

If I liked foils more I'd be tempted to keep, but I think I'd rather get a new TV or something.

[big_ticket]

this is so stupid~~ :mad:
I'm allowed to say fuck in this instance, this card is owning all the Eternal format collectors and players.

its all about SCG jacking up the price

[Megadeus]

Why blame SCG? If they dont sell at 1k, then they have to lower the price just to sell them at all.

[Aggro_zombies]

Why blame SCG? If they dont sell at 1k, then they have to lower the price just to sell them at all.
They'd already sold two when I checked earlier.

Also, let's not turn this into yet another thread about how evil SCG is.

[Megadeus]

I think that bitching about the price of a luxury version of a card is literally pointless and retarded. "Damn Russian Foil Miscut Deathrite Shamans are so expensive. Stupid SCG"

[Esper3k]

Yeah, it's not a seller's fault they can so these now at a premium. Really, you're just losing money if you don't sell at what the market will support.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

I think you make it to easy for you when you say they would lose money and therefore you can not blame them for not providing lower prices.
The reason is that there is another approach which looks if you allready even in costs and earning and if you are provide lower prices for al othe rprdocust to actually
get more reliable customers as if you would keep the high prices for this segment and only get a fiew of them.

Yes you just can keep up the high price of premioum cards but since they are not the main engine of money earning for SCG it would not hurt to get a tille
down with the price.
Honestly I would not even buy this Force for the starting pric eof the post opener. And why should anyone spen 1.000 if alternate Foil Art selfmade by an Artist is cheaper
and unique.

best regards Teveshszat

[Lemnear]

It's fantastic how people raged about 2000$ Vintage decks 8 years ago, then rightfully complained about 2000$ Legacy decks about a year ago and now people are seriously spending up to 4000$ for a set of promotional cards.

[Aggro_zombies]

Looking at recently completed ebay listings (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=force+of+will&_osacat=19107&_from=R40&_mdo=Toys-Hobbies&LH_Complete=1&_armrs=1&_pcats=2536%2C220&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.Xforce+of+will+judge&_nkw=force+of+will+judge&_sacat=19107) for the promo Force, a $1k price tag per card is really not that far out of line right now. SCG has already sold two of its four at that price.

I think it's a wee bit too early to be complaining about this card's price. Force is not even the most expensive component of most blue decks and it's not Reserved List-protected either, which means they can - and possibly will - reprint it in a "Legacy Masters"-style set at some point in the future. Also, expecting a limited-run promo printing to suppress the price of a highly sought-after card is silly. Wasteland has had not one, but two promo printings and is still hovering around $110 using TCGPlayer mid prices.

[Esper3k]

Hello,

I think you make it to easy for you when you say they would lose money and therefore you can not blame them for not providing lower prices.
The reason is that there is another approach which looks if you allready even in costs and earning and if you are provide lower prices for al othe rprdocust to actually
get more reliable customers as if you would keep the high prices for this segment and only get a fiew of them.

Yes you just can keep up the high price of premioum cards but since they are not the main engine of money earning for SCG it would not hurt to get a tille
down with the price.
Honestly I would not even buy this Force for the starting pric eof the post opener. And why should anyone spen 1.000 if alternate Foil Art selfmade by an Artist is cheaper
and unique.

best regards Teveshszat

The thing is, because they do have such a strong customer base due to their reputation for quality and reliability, SCG can sell cards at a higher than average price.

Other sellers might not be able to but if SCG can, more power to them.

It's been shown over and over again that people will pay a premium for official product. While there are certainly great artists out there who do alters, the market for that is still a relatively niche one, not to mention the always potential issue of a card not being playable in a tournament. No matter if you like how these FoWs look or not, they will (presuming unaltered and not hideously damaged somehow) be tournament legal. Good luck getting most head judges to allow a foil FoW that isn't an alter of this one...

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

the price looks only fair because 1. the Ebay dudes have reactected to the Scq Forces and tried to get one cheaper.
The Sellers in return raised the price for the force according to Scg.
the reason why people buy the cards even to this price is greed they just dot think about if the price is to high or not
they just want to have the card.

So that people buy the card is not an indicator for a resonable price. An valid indicator would be how you use the card what you can
do with the product without anything else etc.
Sadly the Fow is nothing without 59 other cards as all other magic cards are too so the price for one card so not be higher
then 200 Dollar for promos and less for non promotional because you also need other cards to make the other card usefull besides
saving your money without any profit.
Cards which could be priced higher are things like the Blue Bird or cards with a richard Garfield Autogram or Artist alternated Cards.

best Regards Teveshszat

[ivanpei]

The 1k price is fair because that's what people will pay for it. No crime to make money. What's funny is that people are willing to pay that kind of money.

This is not something on the reserve list. There is absolutely no.guarantee that Wizards will not go crazy with the distribution of these promos. It's just the incredible demand and limited supply at the moment.

Remember the initial craze for ftv 20 and how much the preorders went for? Chill out guys, wait for the hype to die down and for the supply to increase.

[Esper3k]

Hello,

the price looks only fair because 1. the Ebay dudes have reactected to the Scq Forces and tried to get one cheaper.
The Sellers in return raised the price for the force according to Scg.
the reason why people buy the cards even to this price is greed they just dot think about if the price is to high or not
they just want to have the card.

So that people buy the card is not an indicator for a resonable price. An valid indicator would be how you use the card what you can
do with the product without anything else etc.
Sadly the Fow is nothing without 59 other cards as all other magic cards are too so the price for one card so not be higher
then 200 Dollar for promos and less for non promotional because you also need other cards to make the other card usefull besides
saving your money without any profit.
Cards which could be priced higher are things like the Blue Bird or cards with a richard Garfield Autogram or Artist alternated Cards.

best Regards Teveshszat

While the current price may be outside of the range of what you or myself are willing to pay, that doesn't mean the price is somehow invalid. As Ivanpei put it so nicely, the value of something is what people are willing to pay for it.

Whether something is played or not is one factor in its value, but it's hardly the only factor.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

ofcourse money making is not a crime but sometimes the extent of it is misplaced.
Because as I allready mentioned I hardly doubt that they will anytime soon have to quit business because the
cards get resonalbe prices and not the top of the peak price because of the urge to make as much money as possible.

For this reason I mentioned also what I think is a betterway to vevaluate the price of cards.

But you are absolutly right it no crime to make money and it is also not a crime to not buy it:
maybe I just should quit my atempts to look for reasonable people in this world.

And just start thinking how I can maximizie my own profit.

Best regards Teveshszat

[Tylert]

Hello,

ofcourse money making is not a crime but sometimes the extent of it is misplaced.
Because as I allready mentioned I hardly doubt that they will anytime soon have to quit business because the
cards get resonalbe prices and not the top of the peak price because of the urge to make as much money as possible.

For this reason I mentioned also what I think is a betterway to vevaluate the price of cards.

But you are absolutly right it no crime to make money and it is also not a crime to not buy it:
maybe I just should quit my atempts to look for reasonable people in this world.

And just start thinking how I can maximizie my own profit.

Best regards Teveshszat

You can probably maximize it by not buying it at 1000$ and buy it later when the price will go down :)
I saw a buy it now somewhere around 250$ also... just buy it and sell it later for 500-750 dollars :)

[Ellomdian]

Yeah, it's not a seller's fault they can so these now at a premium. Really, you're just losing money if you don't sell at what the market will support.

Small misconception, and one that I've dealt with when selling brandy-new Judge foils in the past (especially back inna day when you could reasonably expect them to overprint the crap out of them for 2 years.)

You might think that the shiny FoW in your hands is worth $1000, but I have a hard time using it to pay rent, or putting it in my IRA this year, or even using it to get cards I need at the prices I want. I am more than happy (and have gotten into arguments with other judges) to take anywhere from a 10-15% 'loss' on the high value of a card for the first week or 2 if it means that I sell mine immediately. If I was (and sometimes am) willing to let the 'Market' decide what the price was, I would be competing with the majority of judges who expect to get xxx dollars, where xxx is the value of the highest completed auction. However, not only do I usually sell my cards within hours of listing, I get to dictate shipping terms that are convenient for me as part of the auction - and people are fine with it because the cards are cheaper. I don't think I have ever had a payment dispute because I get to dictate terms, and people are happy to get a 'discount.' Also, I don't really have to worry about re-listing, which will absolutely kill you when a high profile card comes out - most people who have the $$$ pick them up almost immediately, and then there is a lull.

'What the market will support' is always kind of a silly discussion - most people forget that there are 2 sides to a Market. As a buyer, my bid price is typically quite a bit below 'Market,' and I encourage people to actually go through the hassle to get 'Market' price. As a buyer or seller, I offer a 'Discount' in return for convenience, not just for time (which is a weird metric to calculate) but for effort overall. That's why SCG is what they are - they make it very easy to Buy or Sell, and take a few points from either side for it.

TL;DR - I have a hard time discussing theoretical 'loss' for a card based on what the demonstrably volatile market states the price is. If the price ever stabilizes (even if it is at $1k) we can talk about losing money, but there are too many factors to say that now.

[miguelmatix]

"lordofthepit - If I weren't allowed to trade away or sell the foil Force of Will (i.e. if we disregard its price on the secondary market), I would rather have one original Force of Will than two judge promos".


This.

[Esper3k]

Hello,

ofcourse money making is not a crime but sometimes the extent of it is misplaced.
Because as I allready mentioned I hardly doubt that they will anytime soon have to quit business because the
cards get resonalbe prices and not the top of the peak price because of the urge to make as much money as possible.

For this reason I mentioned also what I think is a betterway to vevaluate the price of cards.

But you are absolutly right it no crime to make money and it is also not a crime to not buy it:
maybe I just should quit my atempts to look for reasonable people in this world.

And just start thinking how I can maximizie my own profit.

Best regards Teveshszat

That's the rub, isn't it? There are many of us who believe it's perfectly reasonable to try and maximize profit - be it through short term or long term gains. Whatever works best for you is reasonable as long as it accomplishes the goal of maximizing profit.


Small misconception, and one that I've dealt with when selling brandy-new Judge foils in the past (especially back inna day when you could reasonably expect them to overprint the crap out of them for 2 years.)

You might think that the shiny FoW in your hands is worth $1000, but I have a hard time using it to pay rent, or putting it in my IRA this year, or even using it to get cards I need at the prices I want. I am more than happy (and have gotten into arguments with other judges) to take anywhere from a 10-15% 'loss' on the high value of a card for the first week or 2 if it means that I sell mine immediately. If I was (and sometimes am) willing to let the 'Market' decide what the price was, I would be competing with the majority of judges who expect to get xxx dollars, where xxx is the value of the highest completed auction. However, not only do I usually sell my cards within hours of listing, I get to dictate shipping terms that are convenient for me as part of the auction - and people are fine with it because the cards are cheaper. I don't think I have ever had a payment dispute because I get to dictate terms, and people are happy to get a 'discount.' Also, I don't really have to worry about re-listing, which will absolutely kill you when a high profile card comes out - most people who have the $$$ pick them up almost immediately, and then there is a lull.

'What the market will support' is always kind of a silly discussion - most people forget that there are 2 sides to a Market. As a buyer, my bid price is typically quite a bit below 'Market,' and I encourage people to actually go through the hassle to get 'Market' price. As a buyer or seller, I offer a 'Discount' in return for convenience, not just for time (which is a weird metric to calculate) but for effort overall. That's why SCG is what they are - they make it very easy to Buy or Sell, and take a few points from either side for it.

TL;DR - I have a hard time discussing theoretical 'loss' for a card based on what the demonstrably volatile market states the price is. If the price ever stabilizes (even if it is at $1k) we can talk about losing money, but there are too many factors to say that now.

Let me clarify - when I talk about the "market", I really mean the best you can sell / buy at. Of course for many there is value to be had in quickly moving or obtaining cards, and there is a comisurate cost associated with that.

In the current case of SCG selling the new FoWs at $1000, I think it's fine because they are showing that they have the ability to move it at that price. Of course if it turns out they can't, then they will have to lower their price if they want to sell it. It's a self-correcting "problem", IMO.

[Ellomdian]

It's a self-correcting "problem", IMO.

Quoted for Truthery.

I have a sneaking suspicion there are enough people willing to not deal with the hassle of eBay (or who have accumulated credit on SCG) to clear quite a few FoW's initially. Over time, I wouldn't be surprised to see their supply increase and the price drop.

[Lord Seth]

I don't really see the reason in complaining about the high price of a luxury product. It's kinda the point that it's expensive.

[Esper3k]

Quoted for Truthery.

I have a sneaking suspicion there are enough people willing to not deal with the hassle of eBay (or who have accumulated credit on SCG) to clear quite a few FoW's initially. Over time, I wouldn't be surprised to see their supply increase and the price drop.

Yeah right now you've got those people who both want to have it now and are willing to pay a premium for it now. Once more start becoming available, I wouldn't be surprised to see the price drop some. Of course there's always the chance WoTC prints more given that FoW isn't on the reserve list.

[thecrav]

I don't really see the reason in complaining about the high price of a luxury product. It's kinda the point that it's expensive.

Opulence. I has it.

[warfordium]

I'm not sure why Wizards thinks they have to dip their collective toes in the water when it comes to iconic reprints; if Modern Masters has taught us anything, its that people will lap them up, even if they're in non-Standard-legal sets. Letting them trickle out as garbage foil promos is just leaving money on the table.

[Grillo]

Drew this playmat a few years ago... only one left to go! :laugh:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MorhDWOE3io/TNypKLUHGdI/AAAAAAAAEk4/J6t5r-VDF18/s640/reprintus%2520playmat.JPG

.... Also not a fan of the new FOW art.

[Aggro_zombies]

Too bad Tabernacle is on the Reserved List.

[Ellomdian]

Drew this playmat a few years ago... only one left to go! :laugh:

You know, if you were careful, you could make the Tabernacle look like a Karakas and call it a hat trick :cool:

[Grillo]

You know, if you were careful, you could make the Tabernacle look like a Karakas and call it a hat trick :cool:

That'd be fun... but very tough!

[GoblinZ]

Drew this playmat a few years ago... only one left to go! :laugh:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MorhDWOE3io/TNypKLUHGdI/AAAAAAAAEk4/J6t5r-VDF18/s640/reprintus%2520playmat.JPG

.... Also not a fan of the new FOW art.

Oh,I remember your post...this playmat is just awesome...I have a playset of the former two, but sadly I don't think I can afford buying the last one any more...

[rockout]

This is far overdue.

I agree with this statement. It's too bad they didn't release these years ago.

[Nuke is Good]

I'm glad the MOCS art finally got put into paper form, maybe the LED will be next.


I'll probably never own one since I already own a playset and I want to finish Dutch Stax first.

Oh why oh why must Tabernacles and Moats cost so much.