Conspiracy - Spoiler discussion

[Barook]

Spoiler link (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/spoilers/139-conspiracy)

Dack Fayden was already discussed in another thread, but now we got some new cards.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/ur/2014/SelvalaExplorerReturned.jpg

Best in multiplayer games, but maybe it could find its way into Legacy, although I doubt that. Could be abusable with untap effects - it's an Elf to boot. At the very least, it combines nicely with Spirit of the Labyrinth when used during your opponent's turn.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/daily/li/2014/hz79yq3dc1_ct.jpg

Essentially a better Flame Rift for 2 mana. Might be interesting for some kind of R/b Burn deck that also runs Bump in the Night.

[lyracian]

I think the Elf is too random for Legacy.
The black card looks interesting, it might be worth trying a Red Death deck again with this, Bump and Blightning.

[PirateKing]

Why do these cards have a different expansion symbol than those previously spoiled for Conspiracy?

[Barook]

Why do these cards have a different expansion symbol than those previously spoiled for Conspiracy?
Because said cards are also part of Vintage Masters since Conspiracy isn't released on MTGO.

[Tylert]

I like the elf, since you have around 4 on 9 chances somehow to add GG to your mana pool and 4/9 chances to add G to your mana pool when you use it.
It means that you will probably be more able to use the additionnal cards that will be drawn by that elf.

However, it seems slow and there are better ramp cards around (Llanowar elf being better :) ).
Don't think it is for legacy (and the colors are awfull also :) ).

THe black card is nice. Is flame rift played widely in Burn??

[rufus]

I wonder if there's a better card to combo with the elf than Mind over Matter.

[zulander]

The elf and spirit of the labyrinth go well together, doing it on your opponents would mean you don't get to fully utilize the GG unless you have something like Scavenging Ooze or DRS out.

[aluisiocsantos]

It might work that way but I'm sure I'll think of it as cute as it's best. It's too big of an engine just so you can draw a single extra card every turn with no penalties.

[janluis1]

How does will of the council mechanic works in legacy?!

new cards are spoiled and some look bonkers

[kaiserruhsam]

How does will of the council mechanic works in legacy?!

new cards are spoiled and some look bonkers

They do what the rules text says. (the voting will usually be tied, though there could be a corner case like on the counter/copy in vintage where you'd rather counter their fow directly and they want you to copy-counter it so they can drain your ersatz fow, but that's still a tie)

[Grand Superior]

How does will of the council mechanic works in legacy?!

new cards are spoiled and some look bonkers

Just think of those cards as only being the second mode as far as Legacy is concerned. In Tyrant's Choice, you'll almost never get "death" if you vote for it but you'll always get "torture" if you vote for it. I actually think this is a super interesting way to make a card that works differently in multiplayer and in 1 on 1. Pretty inventive on their part.

[lyracian]

Just think of those cards as only being the second mode as far as Legacy is concerned. In Tyrant's Choice, you'll almost never get "death" if you vote for it but you'll always get "torture" if you vote for it. I actually think this is a super interesting way to make a card that works differently in multiplayer and in 1 on 1. Pretty inventive on their part.

You can only ever get Death if opponent wants it. If you vote Death the card ends up reading "Opponent lose's 4 life unless they sacrifice a creature". It is a shame the caster could not decide which result in a tie, but I guess they though having more model spells would make them too strong.

[Megadeus]

Damn for a second I thought you essentially chose the mode (due to winning the tie) in a 2 player game. Dicks. I was getting excited to begin buying badlands for Bad Burn

[janluis1]

still cards looks preatty sick. how do you feel about split-decisionn and plea of power?

http://imgur.com/a/KRwJH

[lyracian]

still cards looks preatty sick. how do you feel about split-decisionn and plea of power?

http://imgur.com/a/KRwJH

Slightly better Twincast and a worse Fact or Fiction.

[Darkenslight]

Marchesa, the Black Rose :1: :u: :b: :r:
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Dethrone (Whenever this creature attacks the player with the highest life total or the player tied for the highest life total, put a +1/+1 counter on it.)
Other creatures you control have Dethrone.
Whenever a creature you control with a +1/+1 counter on it die, you may return that card to the battlefield under your control at the beginning of the next end step.
3/3

LOL Commander.

[bakofried]

Exploration reprint in Conspiracy, it's up on the mother ship.

[Ellomdian]

Exploration reprint in Conspiracy, it's up on the mother ship.

Exploration is 45$. Could not be happier to see it get a reprint, even in small numbers :)

[bakofried]

Isn't it on the Reserved List?

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Sylphnir]

Isn't it on the Reserved List?
18 cards from Urza's Saga are currently on the Reserved List.
Exploration is not among them.

[bakofried]

Huh. More you know.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[snorlaxcom]

Exploration reprint in Conspiracy, it's up on the mother ship.

Dammit

Whelp i may sleeve something up for modern after all

[Tokugawa]

Misdirection just join in.

[UseLess]

Dammit

Whelp i may sleeve something up for modern after all

Exploration would indeed be very nice to play with in modern and would maybe have me play it as well, but unfortunately Conspiracy will not be Modern legal (for now).

[ryO!]

3 quick questions about this set :
will it have foil ?
about the formats where it ll be legal ? only vindage/legay/commander ?
languages available ? i guess english only ?

thanks !

[Tylert]

3 quick questions about this set :
will it have foil ?
about the formats where it ll be legal ? only vindage/legay/commander ?
languages available ? i guess english only ?

thanks !

DOn't know about the language. However, foils will be available and it's gonna be legal in all eternal formats except Modern (Meaning Legacy / vintage / commander / EDH 1vs1).

[Tokugawa]

DOn't know about the language. However, foils will be available and it's gonna be legal in all eternal formats except Modern (Meaning Legacy / vintage / commander / EDH 1vs1).
It would be printed in English/Japanese/Chinese.

52 new cards in CNS is legal in Vintage/Legacy/Commander.

There are also 13 draft-only-abilities related cards in CNS, they are banned in ALL constructed formats.

[Tylert]

It would be printed in English/Japanese/Chinese.

52 new cards in CNS is legal in Vintage/Legacy/Commander.

There are also 13 draft-only-abilities related cards in CNS, they are banned in ALL constructed formats.

Thanks for the clarification... should have precised that :)

[Megadeus]

Glad to see exploration see a reprint. Hopefully the old one comes down in prices so that I can buy some.

[rufus]

This 'draft only' set seems even more money grubbing than introducing mythic rares.

It's also disappointing to see that many of the conspiracy cards are going to be completely unsuitable for EDH.

[Lemnear]

This 'draft only' set seems even more money grubbing than introducing mythic rares.

It's also disappointing to see that many of the conspiracy cards are going to be completely unsuitable for EDH.

I bet the few "never before in foil" EDH cards will sell the boosters like Modern Masters even if there are worthless draft-only-cards in.

[TsumiBand]

This 'draft only' set seems even more money grubbing than introducing mythic rares.

It's also disappointing to see that many of the conspiracy cards are going to be completely unsuitable for EDH.

Do you mean the *set* Conspiracy, or the Conspiracy card *type*? If the card type, yeah I don't know that there's a way to shoehorn it in. If you just mean the newer cards though -- apart from playgroups that enjoy the random "voting" jank and shit like that, I feel like some of those legendary creatures actually matter a damn. Brago is yet another durdly blinky thing and Marchesa is just another "oops, we infinite looped again, in Grixis again, sorry" commander that works with undying, persist, etc etc to break the game again.

Dethrone is a really sort of intriguing multiplayer concept, because usually among smarter players it's not a game of Kill The Guy With The Ball unless they have an overwhelming board presence. This is a pretty-okay way to offer incentive to people who are pulling way ahead on life while also potentially speeding the rest of the game up; unless someone Wraths the board, if you can stick those Dethrone guys they will be big and stay big, and the game doesn't degenerate into picking off people 6 points of life at a time. Will be interested to see if it takes off, anyway.

What would be *Really* neat would be to see some Suicide Black-type stuff with Dethrone that could even make its way into Legacy. It'd have to be insanely aggressive but it's the same ball-game; if you can apply enough pressure to make it stick, you can get the jump on someone early and keep the pressure on by sapping your own life away. *IF* it's aggressive enough. Guess we'll see.

[Crysthorn]

Marchesa is just another "oops, we infinite looped again, in Grixis again, sorry" commander that works with undying, persist, etc etc to break the game again.
Marchesa doesn't resurrect creatures immediately - they come back in the next end step, which makes her ability way harder to break.

[Megadeus]

What would be *Really* neat would be to see some Suicide Black-type stuff with Dethrone that could even make its way into Legacy. It'd have to be insanely aggressive but it's the same ball-game; if you can apply enough pressure to make it stick, you can get the jump on someone early and keep the pressure on by sapping your own life away. *IF* it's aggressive enough. Guess we'll see.

Was thinking this as well. My Deaths Shadows are ready.

[rufus]

Marchesa doesn't resurrect creatures immediately - they come back in the next end step, which makes her ability way harder to break.

If only Ball Lightning were a good card.

[Sylphnir]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2014/05/21/CG_1.jpg
Is this the first direct mana to life converter since Channel?
Way less powerful obviously but still.

[Tylert]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2014/05/21/CG_1.jpg
Is this the first direct mana to life converter since Channel?
Way less powerful obviously but still.

Too bad it costs already 4.
it only nets RR for 18 life :(

[Finn]

Isn't Explorarion on the iron-clad reserved list?

[Holly]

Isn't Explorarion on the iron-clad reserved list?

No, it was one of the 1/5 cards to escape the list.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

No, it was one of the 1/5 cards to escape the list.
Interesting? How that happend?

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

This 'draft only' set seems even more money grubbing than introducing mythic rares.

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of the fact that many of the cards are explicitly Limited only (with their "When you draft..." text) as opposed to implicitly Limited only (i.e. janky shit cards you wouldn't ever find a use for in any Constructed format). Yes, it's unexplored design space, and it may even be pretty fun to try, but it comes at a bad time; after Wizards has already done some serious money-grubbery in the recent past. Things like the way Modern Masters was printed and priced, Commander's Arsenal, or a freaking $70 Modern event deck (yes, I am EXTREMELY butthurt about this) really add up.

[Holly]

Interesting? How that happend?

I could be wrong on the number but I believe it was a decision made by Wizards to chose about 20% of the rares from the affected sets to be not put on the reserved list for future reprints.

[Cire]

http://s3.gatheringmagic.com/uploads/2014/05/21/CG_1.jpg
Is this the first direct mana to life converter since Channel?
Way less powerful obviously but still.

You can't pay life you don't have right? So no Lich's Mirror or Phyrexian Unlife combos?

[ScatmanX]

You can't pay life you don't have right? So no Lich's Mirror or Phyrexian Unlife combos?
Yep. If you're at 1 or 2 you can't activate it.

[(nameless one)]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/841/635363102912397528.jpg

Most goblins have 2 or less power right?

[Tyrio]

He puts every playable Goblin but Krenko into play I believe.

[thecrav]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/841/635363102912397528.jpg

Most goblins have 2 or less power right?

Looking at the most recent top 16 from a 6+ round tournament (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13226&iddeck=97086), the guy played 16 creatures with 1 power, 12 with 2 power and 1 with 3.

Definitely a possibility, but I think you'd probably want to tweak the deck to play a few more 1 power duders.

[Tyrio]

Looking at the most recent top 16 from a 6+ round tournament (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13226&iddeck=97086), the guy played 16 creatures with 1 power, 12 with 2 power and 1 with 3.

Definitely a possibility, but I think you'd probably want to tweak the deck to play a few more 1 power duders.

It's less than or equal to, so he hits every Goblin. With some 20-25 Goblins still in the deck around t4~, it seems like he's about 40-50% chance to hit. Imagine Vialing him in after a Terminus to rebuy all your Ringleaders or SGC or Matrons. I can see him taking a couple Piledriver or MWM slots in RB Goblins, since there's no Thalia to clog that slot.

[Lemnear]

Would you run RWB Goblins? Doubt that. The question is: is the blacksplash for this dood + discard better than RW Goblins with hatebears?

[Darkenslight]

Would you run RWB Goblins? Doubt that. The question is: is the blacksplash for this dood + discard better than RW Goblins with hatebears?

You also get access to cards like Thoughtseize and DRS, and potentially others.

[Lemnear]

You also get access to cards like Thoughtseize and DRS, and potentially others.

I mentioned discard as the only alternative to hatebears if you cut white for black to still being able to support Port + Wasteland and that includes Thoughtseize. It's an age-old discussion if you can afford to run cards like Thoughtseize, which present no threat itself in a pure aggro shell. The RB design of Goblins was en vogue during Llorwyn but got dismissed later as the Mad Auntie's & Wort, Boggart Auntie's cardadvantage wasn't worth the splash. I feel this is just the same case: You splash black for a 2cc creature which will create cardadvantage for about 4 mana in activation cost while you want to use your mana for mana-disruption instead. Do goblins really need an off-color engine in addition to Matron + Ringleader? Doubt that.

DRS is a stupid argument. It's an elf, requires green for full potential and you are not even running a mentionable number of instants/sorceries to feed it. What is it recently that people suggest splashing DRS or SFM in like any archetype and call it a day?

[Gheizen64]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/841/635363102912397528.jpg

Most goblins have 2 or less power right?

Wow, a decent RB card? Picture me impressed, i'd never thought i'd see the day... But honestly, this would've been so good as a card 2-3 years ago. Still a good card, but not sure it has an home right now.

[TsumiBand]

Niiiice.

I know Goblins is the most relevant tribe in RB but it could just as well be any efficient assortment of 1-3 power guys. Goblin Guides, Hellspark Elementals, Dark Confidants, etc.

Granted it's easiest to find it with Matron, and flipping Ringleader to it is living the dream and all, it just doesn't have to be Tribal is all.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Rush80]

What do you think about Muzzio, Visionary Architect ?

It is a way slower than Tinker and a boltable creature, yet still interesting.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Muzzio-Visionary-Architect-Conspiracy-Visual-Spoiler.jpg

[rufus]

What do you think about Muzzio, Visionary Architect ?....

I think there are better options for 7 mana.

[Cire]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/841/635363102912397528.jpg

Most goblins have 2 or less power right?

Why are we focusing in on goblins?

Most good creatures nowadays don't have more than 2 power. Colorwise they are all over the place but this guy can get; DRS, SFM, Mother of Ruins, Ooze, etc.

The problem is that he does nothing 50% of the time - and that's if you run 30 creatures with 2 or below power and not named Grenzo.

It might be better to think about playing Grenzo in combination with things like: Ancient Stirrings and Commune with Nature.

Theoretical Deck list:

Four - Color Dungeon.

4 Grenzo
4 Nobel Heirarch
4 SFM
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Ruins
4 Thalia
4 Phyrexian Revoker

3 Ancient Stirrings
4 Commune with Nature
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial

2 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
2 Reflecting Pool
4 Wasteland

[TsumiBand]

Why are we focusing in on goblins?

Most good creatures nowadays don't have more than 2 power. Colorwise they are all over the place but this guy can get; DRS, SFM, Mother of Ruins, Ooze, etc.

The problem is that he does nothing 50% of the time - and that's if you run 30 creatures with 2 or below power and not named Grenzo.

It might be better to think about playing Grenzo in combination with things like: Ancient Stirrings and Commune with Nature.

So, inasmuch as 'doing nothing' -- it's about like any "reveal the top X cards" effect, only it's bottom of the library instead.

If it were the top of the deck, then it would necessarily be one of those 'aw shucks, it's only good with Brainstorm" cards. That's not to say that Blue isn't real good at sending cards to the bottom too, but at least Scry gives RB a means of stacking the trunk as well. I doubt the kind of decks that would play this card benefit from splashing Blue for, like, Truth or Tale right?

Also it gives Ye Olde Durpy Sligh Deck one more thing to do at end of turn. As ever, being able to commit resources to the right task is critical in such a deck, and it sucks to run out of gas. If you're 'The Beatdown' but you're playing control with your burn spells, you're failing. If you're supposed to be playing control and you're doming your opponent instead, you're doing it weird. This guy at least gives an RB deck an alternative to cycling through their burn spells as fast as possible; EOT, pay 4 and maybe drop 2 - 6 power of creatures into play? Seems good.

Also also... read the card -- first the card hits the graveyard, and then if it meets the conditions it comes into play. It doesn't get exiled; that means it's yet another means of tossing any card you want into the bin(short of a creature that would ETB, it's not an optional effect). Something something Flashback, something something Reanimator, something Threshold? something. You can dump bunches of shit in the bin, is what I'm saying.

[Cire]

So, inasmuch as 'doing nothing' -- it's about like any "reveal the top X cards" effect, only it's bottom of the library instead.

If it were the top of the deck, then it would necessarily be one of those 'aw shucks, it's only good with Brainstorm" cards. That's not to say that Blue isn't real good at sending cards to the bottom too, but at least Scry gives RB a means of stacking the trunk as well. I doubt the kind of decks that would play this card benefit from splashing Blue for, like, Truth or Tale right?

Also it gives Ye Olde Durpy Sligh Deck one more thing to do at end of turn. As ever, being able to commit resources to the right task is critical in such a deck, and it sucks to run out of gas. If you're 'The Beatdown' but you're playing control with your burn spells, you're failing. If you're supposed to be playing control and you're doming your opponent instead, you're doing it weird. This guy at least gives an RB deck an alternative to cycling through their burn spells as fast as possible; EOT, pay 4 and maybe drop 2 - 6 power of creatures into play? Seems good.

Also also... read the card -- first the card hits the graveyard, and then if it meets the conditions it comes into play. It doesn't get exiled; that means it's yet another means of tossing any card you want into the bin(short of a creature that would ETB, it's not an optional effect). Something something Flashback, something something Reanimator, something Threshold? something. You can dump bunches of shit in the bin, is what I'm saying.

I don't really understand what part of my post you're responding to?

[(nameless one)]

Yes! Someone create an Enter the Dungeon.dec list!

[TsumiBand]

I don't really understand what part of my post you're responding to?

Eh, I lost my narrative a bit. :/

You also posted how it didn't have to be tribal, which I agree with (and meant to say so in my response). Consider the case of Hellspark Elemental; even if Grenzo is a 2/2, one can still Unearth it for 3 dmg and great justice.

It's just more complicated than "50% of the time he does nothing", because he does "reverse mill" your deck in fact. The cards stay in the graveyard. It's attractive because the effect is, as they say, "on a stick". I feel like there's a host of good interactions potentially there, just not sure what exactly.

[Barook]

Wait, a decent BR card with a good design? Has hell frozen over yet? :confused:

I like how you can pump him when casting to put even bigger guys into play, although that is hardly relevant, I guess.

Still nice anti-Terminus tech.

[PirateKing]

Eh, I lost my narrative a bit. :/

You also posted how it didn't have to be tribal, which I agree with (and meant to say so in my response). Consider the case of Hellspark Elemental; even if Grenzo is a 2/2, one can still Unearth it for 3 dmg and great justice.

It's just more complicated than "50% of the time he does nothing", because he does "reverse mill" your deck in fact. The cards stay in the graveyard. It's attractive because the effect is, as they say, "on a stick". I feel like there's a host of good interactions potentially there, just not sure what exactly.

Turn over Past in Flames EOT and suddenly your opponent is very dead.

[Infinitium]

More importantly it's a decent 2-drop in a deck starved for them. I especially like how it is essentially a X/X for X in the middle to lategame and how it interacts with Warchief (the cost reduction applies). Granted Ringleader doesn't interact well with it but it should still be an easy 1-2 off in the 60. Not really playable outside of Goblins at the moment what with RBx Sligh being a non-entity, and Jund doesn't really run the creature density to support it.

[TsumiBand]

Also that's a good catch regarding Terminus. How great would it be to Vial the guy in at the EOT of a Terminus turn, tap 4 lands, get two guys back? Nice board wipe, CLOWN


Not really playable outside of Goblins at the moment what with RBx Sligh being a non-entity, and Jund doesn't really run the creature density to support it.

HOW QUICKLY YOU FORGET US

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/relentless-rats.png

[Ace/Homebrew]

Also that's a good catch regarding Terminus. How great would it be to Vial the guy in at the EOT of a Terminus turn, tap 4 lands, get two guys back?

He really has great potential against Miracles beyond being a Terminus undo-er. The X makes him harder to Counterbalance. If the opponent fateseals you with Jace, there's an excellent chance he put a Goblin on the bottom. :wink:

[nedleeds]

You also get access to cards like Thoughtseize and DRS, and potentially others.

You get access to 20 black goblin cards? :rolleyes: R/b goblins used to be the standard ... search and you'll find many cards of interest. Warren Weirding, Wort, Earwig Squad in addition to other good black cards. DRS in goblins sounds absolutely awful, you'd be replacing Aether Vial with it?

[lyracian]

Goblins is the first place I would think to try him but I wonder if his scale-ability may be more use than random graveyard filler? You take 2 damage when he flips to bob but could still cast him as a 6/6 mid game. Undo-ing Terminus and dodgeing most Counter-balance flips could make him a useful sideboard card against miracles. At the end of the day though he is mostly just a dumb beater as without consistent scry/fate-seal effects of your own you have no control over his ability...

[Megadeus]

Maybe a Creature heavy version of Nic Fit? They can make him real big. Maybe in a punishing fire build.

[rufus]

... random graveyard filler? ...

There's also some potential with scry and cards like Commune with Nature,Impulse or Recross the Paths that allow you to stack the bottom of your deck.

[Richard Cheese]

Goblins is the first place I would think to try him but I wonder if his scale-ability may be more use than random graveyard filler? You take 2 damage when he flips to bob but could still cast him as a 6/6 mid game. Undo-ing Terminus and dodgeing most Counter-balance flips could make him a useful sideboard card against miracles. At the end of the day though he is mostly just a dumb beater as without consistent scry/fate-seal effects of your own you have no control over his ability...

Or in a deck that doesn't mind sending random stuff to the grave anyway, Aggro Loam or things with Therapy, Lingering Souls, Tombstalker. Might not be staple material, but this is at least the most interesting RB card to come out in a while.

[Lemnear]

I still can not see a deck which is willing to invest at least 2RB for a random creature from the bottom of your deck

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Yes because the deck that plays 2/2 for 4 that draws you 3 cards and 1/1s for 3 that can get you 2/2 for 4 that draw you 3 cards totally needs more ways to recover from terminus

Card isn't that good

[Adryan]

Finally a good new card out of this set, but i don't think it will make Goblins more playable. The problems of Goblins are SFM/TNN Decks and Combodecks, not Decks with Terminus.

[TsumiBand]

Yes because the deck that plays 2/2 for 4 that draws you 3 cards and 1/1s for 3 that can get you 2/2 for 4 that draw you 3 cards totally needs more ways to recover from terminus

Card isn't that good

We ain't even talking about Goblins no more tho. Think outside the tribal bun, Lord McDonalds!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

We ain't even talking about Goblins no more tho. Think outside the tribal bun, Lord McDonalds!
Goblin Welder?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

We ain't even talking about Goblins no more tho. Think outside the tribal bun, Lord McDonalds!

No, thinking is for noobs

[TsumiBand]

No, thinking is for noobs

Remind me to maintain my amateur status. :)

Anyway, I want to EOT Magma Jet into Hellspark and Thunderous Wrath with this guy in play, because awesome. Super little kid victory for Rakdos

[nedleeds]

Dega. With Grunt.

[lyracian]

Or in a deck that doesn't mind sending random stuff to the grave anyway, Aggro Loam or things with Therapy, Lingering Souls, Tombstalker. Might not be staple material, but this is at least the most interesting RB card to come out in a while.
I agree it is the best RB card for a while still not sure it is good enough though. In Aggro Loam you have Small Creatures, Flashback, Loam, Punishing fires, Lands (once you have loam) they are all useful in the yard so you might be able to get up to 2/3 hit rate but you are still spending mana with no guarantee of getting anything useful. As for Therapy and Souls you still have no consistency in putting them in the yard they are just other cards that help increase your hit rate. It seems a waste of resources to spend mana to make a later Tombstalker cheaper; but I guess it is at least some synergy if you do not hit what you are looking for.

[Barook]

I agree it is the best RB card for a while still not sure it is good enough though. In Aggro Loam you have Small Creatures, Flashback, Loam, Punishing fires, Lands (once you have loam) they are all useful in the yard so you might be able to get up to 2/3 hit rate but you are still spending mana with no guarantee of getting anything useful. As for Therapy and Souls you still have no consistency in putting them in the yard they are just other cards that help increase your hit rate. It seems a waste of resources to spend mana to make a later Tombstalker cheaper; but I guess it is at least some synergy if you do not hit what you are looking for.
As far as Aggro Loam is concerned, it can fetch KotRs since she's a 2/2 in the yard.

While it's nice to have a decent RB card, it might have been nicer as BG GSZ-able anti-Terminus card for Maverick and the likes.

What other creatures benefit from Grenzo in the same way KotR does?

[Adryan]

As far as Aggro Loam is concerned, it can fetch KotRs since she's a 2/2 in the yard.

While it's nice to have a decent RB card, it might have been nicer as BG GSZ-able anti-Terminus card for Maverick and the likes.

What other creatures benefit from Grenzo in the same way KotR does?

You dou realize that GSZ shuffles your library...?

[Darkenslight]

I still can not see a deck which is willing to invest at least 2RB for a random creature from the bottom of your deck

I'd pay that for Emrakul.

[Lemnear]

I'd pay that for Emrakul.

You maybe want to reread the rules text on the goblin

[Barook]

You dou realize that GSZ shuffles your library...?
Okay, brainsfart on my part.

[Richard Cheese]

You maybe want to reread the rules text on the goblin

Come on man, we brewin' some RB Ravager Affinity with Grenzo/Therapy/Magma Jet/Emrakul alternate wincon.

Or RB Grenzo/Eldrazi Hatred.

[Barook]

Realistically, Grenzo has some combo potential with Jotun Grunt, although that's pretty minor.

Is there any way to stack creatures at the bottom of the library?

[rufus]

Realistically, Grenzo has some combo potential with Jotun Grunt, although that's pretty minor.

Is there any way to stack creatures at the bottom of the library?

There are many...

Conjurer's Bauble
Impulse
Commune with Nature
Cream of the Crop
Peer Through Depths
Recross the Paths
Mosswort Bridge

[PirateKing]

There are many...

Conjurer's Bauble
Impulse
Commune with Nature
Cream of the Crop
Peer Through Depths
Recross the Paths
Mosswort Bridge


Any scry or clash puts cards to the bottom

[Richard Cheese]

Realistically, Grenzo has some combo potential with Jotun Grunt, although that's pretty minor.

Is there any way to stack creatures at the bottom of the library?

Here's what I found for things that let you look at the top cards of your library and put some number on the bottom query (http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3Alook+o%3Atop+o%3Acards+o%3Arest+o%3Abottom+o%3Alibrary+-o%3Ascry+f%3Alegacy&v=card&s=cmc):

Hideaway lands (might be some real potential here)...

Commune with Nature
Ancient Stirrings
Cream of the Crop
Flash of Insight
Impulse
Peer Through Depths
Shrine of Piercing Vision
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Ajani, Mentor of Heroes


There's a bunch more, that's just the most cost-effective/interesting, non-scry stuff I found. There are also Clash cards, Ripple cards, Cascade cards and things like Crown of Convergence.

Edit: Grenzo + Tezz + Epochrasite seems fun.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I still think that Grenzo could be good with Goblin Welder.

[Barook]

Get fucked, TNN!

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/cns/asdfsc3wfas234/4ev6B0yf0P_EN.jpg

Just to be sure: They absolutely can't name your stuff, right? If so, this alot better than Detention Sphere in most cases, except against S&T.

[TsumiBand]

Thats crazy. Two nonland permanents?! That's nuts even besides TNN dickery, but compare to like, Vindicate. Jeez.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Barook]

Thats crazy. Two nonland permanents?! That's nuts even besides TNN dickery, but compare to like, Vindicate. Jeez.
They can name the same thing as you. If they have multiple copies, you still get card advantage. There are corner situations, e.g. when both of you control the same card like Jitte or SFM, but in general, it's more or less a Maelstrom Pulse on roids.

[Lejay]

Unless you face a complete idiot the opponent will vote for the same permanent you voted for.

[workingdude]

They can name the same thing as you. If they have multiple copies, you still get card advantage. There are corner situations, e.g. when both of you control the same card like Jitte or SFM, but in general, it's more or less a Maelstrom Pulse on roids.

It is not quite worded like that. You don't name anything, so it wont wipe all permanents with the same name. You'll probably just point to the card you want to exile if there are multiple copies on board.

[Barook]

It is not quite worded like that. You don't name anything, so it wont wipe all permanents with the same name. You'll probably just point to the card you want to exile if there are multiple copies on board.
Okay, my bad, the wording is pretty weird. Still an excellent removal spell, though.

[Arsenal]

Great TNN answer for DnT. Good card. Cant wait to play with it.

[Lemnear]

Dack's Duplicate really screws S&T into Emrakul :)

[adrieng]

Is will of the council a triggered ability ?
There is not written "when" and I don't know if voting is triggered, meaning they can't answer with griselbrand ability/sneak attack and such, stifle or thespian's stage stage(for dark depths) to put a token.
If it is not it is way better than oblivion ring/detention sphere.

[Ellomdian]

Get fucked, TNN!

I mean, they could have made it cheaper, but I don't think they could have made it much more tailor-made for DnT to ice TNN :)

[Namida]

Are we sure that voting isn't like targeting?

I mean, did they actually print a card that is effectively spot removal for True-Name Nemesis, Emrakul, Progenitus, and Hexproof creatures in 1 on 1 games, or am I missing something?

[Darkenslight]

You maybe want to reread the rules text on the goblin

Yeah, I missed the power thing. And the white card is pants-on-head crazy.

[BVB09]

Maybe the white card was a necesary evil, but I think is even more absurd than TNN.
What's the point of Shroud/Hexproof/Protection creatures then?
No doubt is a good card and an interesting effect, but it's in the lines of TNN in the sense of violating the "game rules".

[Zombie]

Great TNN answer for DnT. Good card. Cant wait to play with it.

It kills everyone's favourite hydra tho ;__;

[lordofthepit]

Get fucked, TNN!

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/cns/asdfsc3wfas234/4ev6B0yf0P_EN.jpg

Just to be sure: They absolutely can't name your stuff, right? If so, this alot better than Detention Sphere in most cases, except against S&T.

This is pretty much "Chaos Orb with casual errata". It will exile any non-land permanent of your choice, regardless of protection, shroud, etc. The only drawback is that occasionally your opponent will also want to exile a permanent of theirs that has become a liability.

The implications against True-Name Nemesis are significant, but it saddens me that this will answer a Gaddock Teeg regardless of how many times it's been protected by Mother of Runes, Sylvan Safekeeper, and Sword of Light and Shadow.

[Emo]

I am really beginning to worry that multiplayer cards like this and TNN will make Legacy a much less popular format. The problem with this card is it does "break the rules" of magic. It might as well read destroy target permanent without exception. On the otherhand, I do think it makes creatures like goyf (which die to all removal anyway) more appealing as TNN looks a lot slower to play now.

[landwalker000]

This new white card looks like it will remove true-name, but you are also 2 for 1ing yourself. It might be good enough, but is spending three main (double white at that) and getting 2 for 1ed really that good?

[nedleeds]

It might as well read destroy target permanent without exception

Lands.

[nedleeds]

What's the point of Shroud/Hexproof/Protection creatures then?


Yeah. What's the point of any non pro red creature without hexproof and < 3 toughness with Lightning Bolt around?
Why play anything other than Black Knight with all these STPs?
What's the point of spells in your hand when they can just be thoughtseized?
What's the point of land when it's all so vulnerable to Stone Rain?
What's the point of waking up in the morning when you could just fall off a building?

[mrjumbo03]

This new white card looks like it will remove true-name, but you are also 2 for 1ing yourself. It might be good enough, but is spending three main (double white at that) and getting 2 for 1ed really that good?

Not a 2 for 1 as opponent must choose a permanent you don't control. Could be a 1 for 2 if the opponent is terrible though.

[Higgs]

They power creep cards into uncounterable, indestructible, unremovable extremes and then have to cheat their way out of it by introducing new zones, mechanics to go beyond the uber power creep. I don't mind the card, I like UW control. I just find their design patterns pathetic.

[Emo]

Lands.

This is true, I did not read the non-land permanent part. Don't get me wrong I am glad there is a viable removal spell for TNN, but I still believe that this type of power creep is not healthy for the format.

[landwalker000]

Not a 2 for 1 as opponent must choose a permanent you don't control. Could be a 1 for 2 if the opponent is terrible though.

You are right. I was on my phone and couldn't view the spoiler here. The one I saw said each player voted for a permanent they didn't control.

[Erdvermampfa]

This white removal that can circumvent protection is obviously a concession to us legacy players who have been suffering because of their previous fuck-ups, especially TNN. Not that that I've ever been a fan of this trend of making things uncounterable/unremovable (Thrun, Verdict, Decay), but I think they make things worse by answering the issue with printing new absurd stuff like this.

[Tokugawa]

Maybe the white card was a necesary evil, but I think is even more absurd than TNN.
What's the point of Shroud/Hexproof/Protection creatures then?
No doubt is a good card and an interesting effect, but it's in the lines of TNN in the sense of violating the "game rules".

Shroud has already been obsoleted. (almost) No cards with shroud would be put in future standard sets.

And since hexproof became an "evergreen" keyword in core sets, we may see more and more hexproof commons and uncommons. Then they may treat hexproof as a "cheap ability" ...

[Finn]

I don't think this is so obviously a concession to us. Also, since when does Goblins need card advantage/cost reduction? They have so much already that they can't fit it all.

[ahg113]

What's the point of waking up in the morning when you could just fall off a building?

You had me up until here. What if there are no buildings where I'm waking up? Disregard to falling out of trees, off cliffs, or other natural phenomenon is disheartening at best, and callously ignorant at worst.

Hope everyone enjoys the unofficial beginning of Summer (in the States at least). I will be looking forward to next fall and even moreso next winter.

[Sloshthedark]

oh more stupid OP shit... WW both choices destroyed sounds fair and still playable ... this just gets more retarded

[GoblinZ]

With Thalia on play, it will cost 2ww to play...Just racing TNN with your fliers and equipment....

[Barook]

With Thalia on play, it will cost 2ww to play...Just racing TNN with your fliers and equipment....
While this is true, it's nice to have an insurance. And stuff like early double TNN can still be problematic to race.

And it isn't just creature removal. Having additional outlets against Planeswalkers is always welcome since Liliana (and Jace) can take over the game rather quickly and Revokers aren't guaranteed to stick. Getting rid of random stuff like Ensnaring Bridge is also nice.

[Dzra]

As much as you want to complain about power creep, Council's Judgement still isn't as good a card as Swords to Plowshares and won't see half the amount of play. Costing :1::w::w: and being a Sorcery are big enough drawbacks to where it's effect has to be powerful for it to even get looked at. It's only natural that by printing ridiculous creatures like True-Name Nemesis they would have to eventually print removal for it. Like TNN, the design behind Council's Judgement is far from having any finesse, but at least this is a step in the right direction. No one really liked Hexproof guys anyways.

[Barook]

One interesting part of Judgement is that they have to fire all their activated abilities in response if they want to use them because once it resolves, it immediately kills the card. You could theoretically catch stuff like SDT with it.

[AndyTron]

As much as you want to complain about power creep, Council's Judgement still isn't as good a card as Swords to Plowshares and won't see half the amount of play. Costing :1::w::w: and being a Sorcery are big enough drawbacks to where it's effect has to be powerful for it to even get looked at. It's only natural that by printing ridiculous creatures like True-Name Nemesis they would have to eventually print removal for it. Like TNN, the design behind Council's Judgement is far from having any finesse, but at least this is a step in the right direction. No one really liked Hexproof guys anyways.

I must be the only who actually likes TNN, or at least doesn't mind him all that much. It might be because while everybody else's first impression seems to have been a comparison to Progenitus, the first thing I thought of when I saw the spoilers was Morphling. A big part of the complaints I've read about TNN are that he does something that blue isn't supposed to do, and I guess I never really felt that way.

As far as Council's Judgement goes it seems kind of like cutting off your finger because you got a splinter; A bit of an overreaction that will probably cause as many problems as it solves.

Who knows though, maybe Wizards finally figured out how to appease both sides of the blue lovers/haters spectrum and did it on purpose. Print overpowered chase rare in blue, claim it was a mistake, print over powered maindeckable chase rare answer in another color like with Snapcaster and Deathrite.

[Megadeus]

You had me up until here. What if there are no buildings where I'm waking up? Disregard to falling out of trees, off cliffs, or other natural phenomenon is disheartening at best, and callously ignorant at worst.

Hope everyone enjoys the unofficial beginning of Summer (in the States at least). I will be looking forward to next fall and even moreso next winter.

Do you live in a jungle? I'm assuming you don't live in a house (aka a building)

[AndyTron]

Do you live in a jungle? I'm assuming you don't live in a house (aka a building)

I assumed he was an Ewok. :P

[TsumiBand]

As much as you want to complain about power creep, Council's Judgement still isn't as good a card as Swords to Plowshares and won't see half the amount of play. Costing :1::w::w: and being a Sorcery are big enough drawbacks to where it's effect has to be powerful for it to even get looked at. It's only natural that by printing ridiculous creatures like True-Name Nemesis they would have to eventually print removal for it. Like TNN, the design behind Council's Judgement is far from having any finesse, but at least this is a step in the right direction. No one really liked Hexproof guys anyways.

Yeah, I agree that the design is inelegant.

It's like when they print "this card can't be countered" on something that they're obviously trying to just push through to Legacy. I like the effect Abrupt Decay has on the format, but I don't like its effect, necessarily. But -- again, it's indicative of giving the Blue mage too much of a good thing in the past, so there's an over-correcting action that is perceived to be necessary in order to have a real impact on Legacy.

As for disliking Hexproof things -- at least Hexproof doesn't require a whole paradigm shift in design to deal with. Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout will kill a 2/2 with Hexproof. Hexproof worked enough within existing Magic cards that it could have at least theoretically been answered without taking the nature of removal to a different level -- I don't even just mean power creep obviously, I mean like creating something as mechanically ungraceful as 'choice removal'. Or whatever it should be called; named removal, choice removal, etc etc. 'Choose/Name a permanent' as opposed to 'target a permanent', just to get around untargetability on a technicality.

It's interesting because the general consensus is Magic has been moving to a simpler headspace than previous days -- whether or not that is incorrect is up to an individual's preference, I guess. But the re-establishment of the nature of interaction by blowing up the scope of what creatures can potentially do, has added what I consider an unnecessary new level of complexity. This redundant stuff *should* have been a lesson learned via Horsemanship, Shadow, etc etc... in other words, they've just reinvented the wheel here and duplicated a bunch of effort, in order to address cards that are perceived to be too subversive to actually interact with. It's a subset of cards within the game that basically go to great lengths to return the dynamic back to "target that jerk and kill it."

[Higgs]

It's a subset of cards within the game that basically go to great lengths to return the dynamic back to "target that jerk and kill it."
Spot on. Expand threats to uber power creep, expand answers to the same level. You are at the same position, you now just have redundant layers of mechanics doing the same fucking stupid thing. Was looking through the Vintage Masters spoilers, got teary eyed when I realized how much of the old junk cards I still have in my parents' basement. What the fuck happened to this game.

[HSCK]

It evolved...got better....got tons of players.

[Lord Seth]

I am really beginning to worry that multiplayer cards like this and TNN will make Legacy a much less popular format. The problem with this card is it does "break the rules" of magic. It might as well read destroy target permanent without exception. On the otherhand, I do think it makes creatures like goyf (which die to all removal anyway) more appealing as TNN looks a lot slower to play now.It can't hit lands, so that's a pretty notable exception right there. We're not talking about Vindicate here.

[Barook]

It evolved...got better....got tons of players.
More doesn't necessary better. By that logic, we would all eat shit because millions of flies can't be wrong - right?

Magic has a good core that Maro & company weren't able to ruin yet. Part of the growth can probably attributed to the internet and overall more coverage of the game. The improved limited experience also have to do with this. Dumbing down the game for idiots probably did its part as well. See: "We want the Call of Duty"-audience for video games.

The problem is that they keep pushing dumb shit, whether we like it or not. Hexproof is generally disliked and according one of Maro's recent blog entries, it's the most requested mechanic to be removed - yet Wizards still pushes it instead of bringing shroud back. Or the horrible sliver redesign debacle.

One problem of power creep is dumb shit requiring even dumber answers - see TNN. It's the whole arm race of "counter - uncounterable - circumventing uncounterable spells" all over again. I don't mind the card as I see it as a necessary evil to deal with TNN, powerful planeswalkers etc., but I dislike how it can hit "fair" protection creatures like Mom or Teeg with Safekeeper protection.

[HSCK]

More doesn't necessary better. By that logic, we would all eat shit because millions of flies can't be wrong - right?

Magic has a good core that Maro & company weren't able to ruin yet. Part of the growth can probably attributed to the internet and overall more coverage of the game. The improved limited experience also have to do with this. Dumbing down the game for idiots probably did its part as well. See: "We want the Call of Duty"-audience for video games.

The problem is that they keep pushing dumb shit, whether we like it or not. Hexproof is generally disliked and according one of Maro's recent blog entries, it's the most requested mechanic to be removed - yet Wizards still pushes it instead of bringing shroud back. Or the horrible sliver redesign debacle.

One problem of power creep is dumb shit requiring even dumber answers - see TNN. It's the whole arm race of "counter - uncounterable - circumventing uncounterable spells" all over again. I don't mind the card as I see it as a necessary evil to deal with TNN, powerful planeswalkers etc., but I dislike how it can hit "fair" protection creatures like Mom or Teeg with Safekeeper protection.


That's a false equivalency. Wizards has definitely been doing something right to the game to continue to attract players while retaining a large portion. Is there something wrong with that? It's made Magic better to play over time.

[Barook]

That's a false equivalency. Wizards has definitely been doing something right to the game to continue to attract players while retaining a large portion. Is there something wrong with that? It's made Magic better to play over time.
I named some of the reasons why the game is still growing.

MODO is a prime example how badly they can fuck up and still get away with it because the core game is so good.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They power creep cards into uncounterable, indestructible, unremovable extremes and then have to cheat their way out of it by introducing new zones, mechanics to go beyond the uber power creep. I don't mind the card, I like UW control. I just find their design patterns pathetic.

Yep, this. Many times.

[Dice_Box]

It is days like today that I am glad that I have started building Storm. I think it is time to move to full combo. Everything else seams to be going to hell.

[Lord Seth]

You know, this discussion of True-Name Nemesis makes me suddenly wonder if there's any chance of True-Name Nemesis being in Conspiracy. Because the card's far more fair in multiplayer, which is how you're supposed to be playing this set.

[Lemnear]

It is days like today that I am glad that I have started building Storm. I think it is time to move to full combo. Everything else seams to be going to hell.

That is a funny fact. Everytime the metagame jumps through hoops once a new beater or removal is printed, while combo is usually only affected if the new printed option is so overwhelming good that it dominated the fair game and people can cut SB slots for fair games as a result and dedicate those for combo.

Today, SB's basically only consist of combo-hate because oppressive MB options like SFM, Delver, Decay, Tarmogoyf, Deluge, Liliana, etc. made anything fair outside of the UWR and BUG shard near unplayable

[Final Fortune]

That is a funny fact. Everytime the metagame jumps through hoops once a new beater or removal is printed, while combo is usually only affected if the new printed option is so overwhelming good that it dominated the fair game and people can cut SB slots for fair games as a result and dedicate those for combo.

Today, SB's basically only consist of combo-hate because oppressive MB options like SFM, Delver, Decay, Tarmogoyf, Deluge, Liliana, etc. made anything fair outside of the UWR and BUG shard near unplayable

Pretty much this, the closest decks to being fair and competitive in Legacy are Jund and Junk with Death and Taxes not far behind, there just isn't anything with a purely aggro component anymore - which makes me wish they'd really unban stuff like Goblin Recruiter and Skullclamp to bring aggro back into the meta game. The environment seems really stale right now, it's missing something.

[Barook]

Pretty much this, the closest decks to being fair and competitive in Legacy are Jund and Junk with Death and Taxes not far behind, there just isn't anything with a purely aggro component anymore - which makes me wish they'd really unban stuff like Goblin Recruiter and Skullclamp to bring aggro back into the meta game. The environment seems really stale right now, it's missing something.
But both Recruiter and Skullclamp would primarily feed the Combo aggro archetype. That isn't going to bring classical aggro like Zoo back.

Blame it on great designs like Delver, Terminus and TNN.

[Zombie]

unban Skullclamp

No.

[Dice_Box]

Zoo is gone, only way to fix that is to invent a time machine. If you managed that though, I think getting a bunch of Alpha boxes would be a higher priority that playing Zoo.

[Gheizen64]

oh more stupid OP shit... WW both choices destroyed sounds fair and still playable ... this just gets more retarded

Wat? Card is barely playable. Being able to hit TNN is literally the only plus it has over things like oblivion ring or vindicate. It's even a sorcery. Not like decks with TNN would have counters in them, because the best creature color can't have also counterspells.

[Dice_Box]

Not having to give the shit back if they have an Abrupt decay feels like a plus over O ring.

[Barook]

Not having to give the shit back if they have an Abrupt decay feels like a plus over O ring.
This

O-ringing a Liliana at 1 loyality, just to get the O-Ring hit with AD and bringing her back with 3 loyality doesn't sound that hot. Judgement guarantees a clean kill without feeding Goyfs once it resolves.

[LeoCop 90]

Now we are starting to see the concrete effects of true-name-nemesis stupid design. Wizard is forced to print other stupid-design cards just to deal with the previous error, but the result is always the same : some colors / decks will never have the tools to deal with true name nemesis, and the metagame will remain stale. Not to mention that being forced to play this crappy answers to nemesis (because this card, or other cards like golgari charm and zealous persecution are crappy) just make the nemesis decks happy, because they just run the more efficient cards and run over you.

[Adryan]

Now we are starting to see the concrete effects of true-name-nemesis stupid design. Wizard is forced to print other stupid-design cards just to deal with the previous error, but the result is always the same : some colors / decks will never have the tools to deal with true name nemesis, and the metagame will remain stale. Not to mention that being forced to play this crappy answers to nemesis (because this card, or other cards like golgari charm and zealous persecution are crappy) just make the nemesis decks happy, because they just run the more efficient cards and run over you.

I don't think TNN was bad for Legacy, without TNN Death and Taxes would be more of a force than it is today. It also made RUG Delver a lot less oppressive , which is a good thing i think. One can think that TNN killed some decks like Maverick etc. but those decks were already dead and unplayable before. It was just one more nail in the coffin.

Actually i like the design of this new card. It's a good card, but not a card where you can put 4 copys in your MD and be happy with it. It's a card that is definetely maindeckable but you have to think a lot about actual numbers in your 75.

[Barook]

I don't think TNN was bad for Legacy, without TNN Death and Taxes would be more of a force than it is today. It also made RUG Delver a lot less oppressive , which is a good thing i think. One can think that TNN killed some decks like Maverick etc. but those decks were already dead and unplayable before. It was just one more nail in the coffin.

Actually i like the design of this new card. It's a good card, but not a card where you can put 4 copys in your MD and be happy with it. It's a card that is definetely maindeckable but you have to think a lot about actual numbers in your 75.
Oh yeah, it would be a shame when a non-blue fair deck like D&T would have a fair share of the meta. It's not like Jund and Elves would totally faceroll it. :rolleyes:

TNN is the most unfun design in years and it makes the game boring as hell.

[amalek0]

Oh yeah, it would be a shame when a non-blue fair deck like D&T would have a fair share of the meta. It's not like Jund and Elves would totally faceroll it. :rolleyes:

TNN is the most unfun design in years and it makes the game boring as hell.

meh. TNN ain't that scary. Dies to EE. Dies to terminus. Dies to cruel edict/effects. Runed halo is a thing. Counterspells exist. Green has Craterhoof behemoth. Red gets the shaft, but who cares? TNN isn't good against 24 bolts.dec and everything else running red has counterspells or a combo kill. I have more issues with the design of deathrite shaman, and there's nothing in this set (spoiled thus far) that really messes with the BUG/elves decks that are abusing deathrite.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

meh. TNN ain't that scary. Dies to EE. Dies to terminus. Dies to cruel edict/effects. Runed halo is a thing. Counterspells exist. Green has Craterhoof behemoth. Red gets the shaft, but who cares? TNN isn't good against 24 bolts.dec and everything else running red has counterspells or a combo kill. I have more issues with the design of deathrite shaman, and there's nothing in this set (spoiled thus far) that really messes with the BUG/elves decks that are abusing deathrite.

Otoh, DRS dies to all the stuff TNN dies to and many more. We're definitely not in a need for another DRS answer.

[Zombie]

Oh yeah, it would be a shame when a non-blue fair deck like D&T would have a fair share of the meta. It's not like Jund and Elves would totally faceroll it. :rolleyes:

TNN is the most unfun design in years and it makes the game boring as hell.

I'm also confused by this idea that RUG Delver being dominant is a bad thing. RUG dominant is infinitely preferable to TNN being a large force in the meta or Miracles being king of the hill like now.

I don't even know if it's possible to have a not-entertaining matchup vs. RUG.

[Lemnear]

I'm also confused by this idea that RUG Delver being dominant is a bad thing. RUG dominant is infinitely preferable to TNN being a large force in the meta or Miracles being king of the hill like now.

I don't even know if it's possible to have a not-entertaining matchup vs. RUG.

Tbh I dunno how entertaining a concept is that aims to deny it's opponent any options to play his spells. Some games are as entertaining and interactive as playing Zoo against storm.

RUG Tempo is an archetype which lasts on top of the Legacy metagame for a decade. For me it's fine if it loses it's Status for a while.

[btm10]

I'm also confused by this idea that RUG Delver being dominant is a bad thing. RUG dominant is infinitely preferable to TNN being a large force in the meta or Miracles being king of the hill like now.

I don't even know if it's possible to have a not-entertaining matchup vs. RUG.

It's very easy to have a dull matchup vs. RUG. Just get stuck on one or two lands because of Stifle and Wasteland and it'll be less interactive than trying to deal with a resolved TNN.

Miracles being dominant is great to me. That's the deck I can't imagine having a boring matchup against. But this is a sign that the meta is healthy - we all have something that we dislike, but nothing is clearly running the show. If I had my way, we'd see a lot less Death and Taxes and Maverick and more Storm combo. That's not about to happen, though.

[MGB]

Wow. This new printing makes me sad as a fan of the game.

The game just keeps getting dumber and dumber. Before long, they will stop printing Instants and cards with Flash, because we all know Mark Rosewater and the entire play-testing group thinks that the game is more "fun" if everything is played during each player's main phase at sorcery speed.

[Barook]

Tbh I dunno how entertaining a concept is that aims to deny it's opponent any options to play his spells. Some games are as entertaining and interactive as playing Zoo against storm.
This

RUG sometimes have one of those draws where they autopilot Delvers with cheap mana denial and free counters into victory while you can't do much thanks to being on the draw.

Back to topic:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/58/218/635365732953102880.jpeg

Not competitive, but I love the flavor behind this one.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/58/185/635363976635082886.jpeg

A Bottled Cloister without the drawback of being blown out of the water with artifact removal or being unable to cast spells in your opponent's turn. You lose the discard protection, though. Most likely not competitive, but who knows?

[Finn]

It's very easy to have a dull matchup vs. RUG. Just get stuck on one or two lands because of Stifle and Wasteland and it'll be less interactive than trying to deal with a resolved TNN...
I have a much larger degree of control over if this scenario occurs than if my opponent happens to tap UUx for his one-card combo.

[Octopusman]

[Edit] Didn't read the card./
I like the portal because if the board state is even you can edge ahead and if you're behind you can pop it and you may have already gained some cards to reclaim the board.
It suffers from nevinyrral's disk syndrome though (having to wait until your next turn to blow it)./

Agreed, the flavor of Grudge Keeper is amazing. :laugh:

[Holly]

I like the portal because if the board state is even you can edge ahead and if you're behind you can pop it and you may have already gained some cards to reclaim the board.
It suffers from nevinyrral's disk syndrome though (having to wait until your next turn to blow it).

Agreed, the flavor of Grudge Keeper is amazing. :laugh:


The portal will never pop unless your opponents (and you) wants to.

[Octopusman]

The portal will never pop unless your opponents (and you) wants to.

My mistake. Haven't had to tell myself to rtfc in a long time. Thanks.

[Grand Superior]

I really like Coercive Portal. Maybe it's just me, but it's quite funny to be benefiting from something that could theoretically destroy everything. It feels like a metaphor for a lot of things.

I highly doubt that it'll be a player in Legacy (Bottled Cloister is likely better and its only a fringe card in MUD) but I really like this card.

[Michael Keller]

Zoo is gone, only way to fix that is to invent a time machine. If you managed that though, I think getting a bunch of Alpha boxes would be a higher priority that playing Zoo.

Why do people incessantly just declare decks "dead"?

See, this is the biggest problem I have with Legacy: people have such short-term attention spans. The card pool is twenty-one fucking years deep. I think a well-built Zoo deck in the hands of a capable pilot could still be highly effective.

Legacy is a flavor-of-the-month format these days because of Star City Games creating a delusion for readers and players alike that it's only correct to play the decks that won that week or month. Card interactions that were and are strong have not changed one bit. It's just people lose sight too quickly.

[HSCK]

You're wrong, Zoo's just dead. No real placing in months? Years? What's the upside to that deck with Delver being the best aggressive creature and Miracles as one of the most popular decks?

[(nameless one)]

I believe Zoo is doing fine... In Modern.

As for the Portal, it seems fine in MUD. Maybe a Smokestacks build with Portal to replenish your resources (Bottled Cloister is always a blow out when destroyed and Staff of Nin is steep at 6 mana).

[Megadeus]

Zoo isnt even good in modern from what I hear... Lightning Helix is an absolute beating. If I had the cards, I'd play Zoo though. The deck probably can still do well. The problem is no one has confidence in the deck so no one plays it

[lordofthepit]

For what it's worth, I'm likely to pick up Zoo again when Council's Judgment comes out; I haven't played it since TNN was printed.

[(nameless one)]

For what it's worth, I'm likely to pick up Zoo again when Council's Judgment comes out; I haven't played it since TNN was printed.

Didn't you top8 an SCG event with Zoo? I am looking forward to this.

[lordofthepit]

Didn't you top8 an SCG event with Zoo? I am looking forward to this.

Yeah, that was actually the last time I played Zoo. Admittedly, I am unlikely to be playing Zoo at the next SCG I attend until I have a better feel on the expected metagame.

[Megadeus]

Yeah the report was "Fight Me" or something like that. Congrats btw. I think it could be viable. Just not the Hyper aggro version. The more Big Zoo like what you played is probably better off.

[Barook]

For reference (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26620-FIGHT-ME!-Top-4-at-Mirkwood-Cup-with-Zoo)

It's still more of a Punishing Maverick build with Wild Nacatl instead of Mom and Bolt thrown in.

Pure Aggro Zoo is just plain dead. You can't race combo and there is just way too much stuff out there that takes a dump on creatures. Council's Judgement may help to fight off some of this horseshit (e.g. Liliana, TNN), but other problems like Terminus remain.

[Megadeus]

Maybe Super Greedy 4 Color Zoo (black Splash) for like ZP? Maybe I'm also need to find something to do other than brewing shitty magic decks.

[Barook]

Maybe Super Greedy 4 Color Zoo (black Splash) for like ZP? Maybe I'm also need to find something to do other than brewing shitty magic decks.
Zoo won't be viable as long as Brainstorm is legal in the format due to all the cards it feeds, like Delver and Terminus . And even then, other decks would probably take over before Zoo became viable.

Zoo could only work again if they printed a bunch of hyperaggressive, disruptive creatures that aren't compatible with blue strategies - think Thalia-tier of disruption, except with better bodies. But then we would have power creep galore.

[Lemnear]

Zoo won't be viable as long as Brainstorm is legal in the format due to all the cards it feeds, like Delver and Terminus . And even then, other decks would probably take over before Zoo became viable.

Zoo could only work again if they printed a bunch of hyperaggressive, disruptive creatures that aren't compatible with blue strategies - think Thalia-tier of disruption, except with better bodies. But then we would have power creep galore.

No, it would destroy the format like Lodestone Golem did kill Vintage. Every time I read a post claiming that disruption + big body + low cost is healthy for Legacy, I want to punch someone in the face for not learning what consequences this approach had for magic's oldest format.

We simply need more card selection in non-blue colors to reduce the oppressive advantage given by running Ponder + Brainstorm + Fetches. Being unable to accept tradeoffs in P/T for having actual disruption on a creature or expecting that playing/turning sideways vanillas should be a top strategy in Legacy maybe choose the wrong format for his mindset. Play Thalia if you want to battle combo and cantrip-galores; play Pridemage if you want to handle artifacts/Enchantments; play Sylvan Library if you want cardadvantage and reach for your games; play GSZ for card selection. Nacatl + Tarmogoyf + Lightning Bolt are no longer a strategy itself and peeps have problems accepting that. I'm not directing this stuff at anyone, but the discussion is ongoing for years now and i'm sick of reading the same lazy postulations: "We want a 3/3 for G with Thalia's rulestext"

[Lord Seth]

Zoo isnt even good in modern from what I hear... Lightning Helix is an absolute beating. If I had the cards, I'd play Zoo though. The deck probably can still do well. The problem is no one has confidence in the deck so no one plays itLightning Helix is decent, but I think the bigger card keeping Zoo down in Modern is Anger of the Gods.

It is, however, better in Modern than in Legacy.

[Barook]

No, it would destroy the format like Lodestone Golem did kill Vintage. Every time I read a post claiming that disruption + big body + low cost is healthy for Legacy, I want to punch someone in the face for not learning what consequences this approach had for magic's oldest format.

We simply need more card selection in non-blue colors to reduce the oppressive advantage given by running Ponder + Brainstorm + Fetches. Being unable to accept tradeoffs in P/T for having actual disruption on a creature or expecting that playing/turning sideways vanillas should be a top strategy in Legacy maybe choose the wrong format for his mindset. Play Thalia if you want to battle combo and cantrip-galores; play Pridemage if you want to handle artifacts/Enchantments; play Sylvan Library if you want cardadvantage and reach for your games; play GSZ for card selection. Nacatl + Tarmogoyf + Lightning Bolt are no longer a strategy itself and peeps have problems accepting that. I'm not directing this stuff at anyone, but the discussion is ongoing for years now and i'm sick of reading the same lazy postulations: "We want a 3/3 for G with Thalia's rulestext"
I never said that too undercosted, disruptive creatures would be healthy for the format. Hence my power creep comment.

But the problem is way deeper than just "give other colors better card selection and everything is fine".

If you tap out with non-blue colors, you're boned when your opponent casts something you don't like, while blue can jam down their Delvers and protect it with their free countermagic. The best thing other colors have is narrow, situational sideboard crap like Surgical Extraction or Mindbreak Trap which, while being okay cards, aren't exactly helping in the grand scheme of things.

But the problems don't just stop there. Blue basically has the monopoly on stack interaction. What Spirit of the Labyrinth really needed wasn't 3 power, but Flash. There are ways to make colors interact with the stack without breaking the color pie.

Blue doesn't just have the best card selection, but also the best disruption and is the only color to interact properly with the stack. Now that it got the best creatures as well in form of Delver and TNN, balance is completely thrown out of the window.

To come back to topic, the printing of Council's Judgement only half a year after the release of TNN makes me believe that they willingly released TNN into the Legacy ecosystem, just to sell solutions to it soon afterwards. This sets a dangerous precedent for things to come.

Edit: What I also dislike is how certain match-ups are basically decided with the coin flip, considering how much of an advantage certain decks get when they're on the play. Certain combo match-ups are guilty of this; Delver is a huge offender in that regard, too. As much strategic depth Hearthstone may lack, the one thing they got right and nailed it was the introduction of the coin to even things out when you're on the draw. A few well-designed cards that trade off card advantage for speed when you're on the draw might be interesting (think Gemstone Cavern, but without being ass after Wizards ruined it).

[Kring]

There are alot of good hatebears recently that could change zoo's perspective. But to overcome combo, true name nemesis, equipment, and the *hitton of removal that is played right now, it is a tall order.

[wcm8]

White has always had an answer to TNN, it just happened to be very narrow: Holy Light

Heck, it's even Instant speed.


I really don't think that TNN is what made Zoo outmoded. Delver gave blue decks access to another aggressive 1-drop, and the consistency of Ponder/Bstorm and resiliency of Daze/FoW/[other control cards] is a much better strategy in Legacy than going all-in on aggressive creatures. Stoneforge + Batterskull is another major obstacle for purely aggressive strategies. The format just has too many powerful tempo, control and combo decks to make an all-in Zerg rush very effective.

[mishima_kazuya]

Across Modern and Legacy, Zoo got killed by powercreep. The old strategy of curving out with vanilla beaters and burn spells (Sligh) got nerfed by the powercreep of creatures with extra abilities.

Why should someone play vanilla 2/3s and 3/3s when they can just go bigger with creatures with extra abilities, like Knight of the Reliquary, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Scavenging Ooze, and Snapcaster Mage. As an example: unless the Zoo deck flips the nuts every game, it will almost always lose at least a match because it stumbled off curve and proceeded to get outclassed by "bigger" strategies, like Jund.

Of course vanilla creatures are also susceptible to combo decks, which raises the question of why should I play Sligh, when strategies that actually have a plan beside racing combo exist, like Death and Taxes.

[Allcoin]

So how about that stifle, and deed reprint? Gotta say I saw stifle coming. Deed? Not so much.

[thecrav]

So how about that stifle, and deed reprint? Gotta say I saw stifle coming. Deed? Not so much.

I expect to see many arguments among FNM-tards about using Stifle as a counterspell or what can be stifled.

[Megadeus]

Deed in New border makes me want to cry

[nevilshute]

Deed in New border makes me want to cry

I hear that. Would have been nice if they had given it some new art work. This old art work / new frame thing is quite off putting.

That being said, I'm quite pleased to see this many legacy reprints in a non-standard set. What are we up to now?

Misdirection
Brainstorm
Stifle
Exploration
Pernicious Deed

[Tokugawa]

Sad too see them use old art on Deed, not the Kotaki one. The Freyalise on the old art is …ugly.

[Aggro_zombies]

I am amused that both Phage and Stifle are in this set. My dream in draft is to Victimize Phage into play, then Stifle the trigger.

[nudon]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cpy/cards/gamekeeper.html

Possible new combo deck with Griselbrand. Living wish seems pretty good to find Gamekeeper or Phyrexian Tower. Burning wish can find a tutor spell (i.e. gsz) or cabal therapy.

[PirateKing]

http://mythicspoiler.com/cpy/cards/gamekeeper.html

Possible new combo deck with Griselbrand. Living wish seems pretty good to find Gamekeeper or Phyrexian Tower. Burning wish can find a tutor spell (i.e. gsz) or cabal therapy.

GSZ=4, flashback Cabal Threapy, Emrakul. Seems good.

[Holly]

Gamekeeper is quite old and was part of various combo decks.. I'm pretty confident that some brews are floating around and I'm pretty sure its just worse than alternatives.

[nudon]

Gamekeeper is quite old and was part of various combo decks.. I'm pretty confident that some brews are floating around and I'm pretty sure its just worse than alternatives.

I hadn't seen the card before but thanks for pointing it out.

[Parcher]

I expect to see many arguments among FNM-tards about using Stifle as a counterspell or what can be stifled.

FNM nothing. I saw three different "Pros" try to Stifle Flashback at PTLA. Personally. Some more than once.

[Infinitium]

Hey, Squirrel Nest got spoiled. Earthcraft ho?

[ESG]

@Nudon: There's an old thread here for a Gamekeeper deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23278-B-g-Gamekeeper-%28Control%29

[JanoschEausH]

The problem with Gamekeeper is: Deathrite Shaman or any other graveyard hate.

[nevilshute]

A friend of mine has been brewing a Gamekeeper deck for some time and has been having modest success at our LGS. It's not my impression that DRS is a problem for him at all. He's playing a BG build with a strong removal suite with playsets of Lilianas, Decays, and innocent bloods. He's also running the Living Wish board and Stage/Depths kill as 2ndary win con. What he does have a tremendously hard time beating is Death and Taxes due to 3-4 karakas, swords to plowshares and, to some extent, flickerwisp. I think he can also struggle against fast combo.

I think he's pretty solid against most of the delver decks.

[Thor Hammer]

TNN is a dominant force in legacy, but it is hardly unanswerable. Diabolic Edict, Terminus, Volcanic Fallout, Zealous Persecution, and now Council's Judgment are all more than effective. I think some people will over react to any powerful new card. Power creep is inevitable in some form or another, and that's not a bad thing. Sure they could reprint the same cards over and over again, possibly with different names, to appease a handful of people who don't know how to adapt, but the game would quickly become stale and so would the people who continue to play it.

[ESG]

TNN is a dominant force in legacy, but it is hardly unanswerable. Diabolic Edict, Terminus, Volcanic Fallout, Zealous Persecution, and now Council's Judgment are all more than effective. I think some people will over react to any powerful new card. Power creep is inevitable in some form or another, and that's not a bad thing. Sure they could reprint the same cards over and over again, possibly with different names, to appease a handful of people who don't know how to adapt, but the game would quickly become stale and so would the people who continue to play it.

I don't know what your comment is in reply to, but Volcanic Fallout does not kill TNN.

[Anen]

I don't know what your comment is in reply to, but Volcanic Fallout does not kill TNN.

It depends if the player casting Fallout is the player TNN is protected from :tongue: