Disciple's Caw

[Pich]

Hi.

First i'd like to introduce myself a little. My name is Patrick Pichette, I am 17 years old, i'm from Quebec City, i wouldn't consider myself a grinder since i don't really PTQ, but i consider myself as someone who loves the game.

My first time playing Magic was back in the days (2005?) when one of my 2 brothers handed me my other brother's pile of Savannah Lions and Paladin-en-Vecs, i've never been into the fantasy stuffs even when i was a kid, i didn't care about Dragons and Vampires (#KANYE THE DRAGON), i just really liked the diversity from games to games, the interactions. Remember that time when you were discovering Magic? I remember first seeing a Fire/Ice. WOAH, 2 CARDS in one!? Ravenous Baloth + Blastoderm!?!?!111 It didn't take much to impress me, god that time was awesome..

When i was like 9 years old and my mom and i were going to the mall, there was a store that was selling Magic cards/boosters. I would go there and buy awesome cards with the weekly 10$ my parents would give me! Cards like Goblin Goons, or Goblin Grenades (woa 5 damages!) for my crappy.. huh i mean suboptimal Goblin deck (It was sleeved in terrible quality penny sleeves and i remember spilling a glass of Pepsi on it haha) I obviously didn't know much about Magic, but i really loved brewing, and that love for brewing sticked until now. Therefore, my favorite format as always been Legacy, because it has sooooooo much possibilities.

Having a 17yo's stud budget for Magic and Legacy cards being worth so much, it limits me a little. But you know what ? Restrictions triggers creativity (Travis Woo said something like that i just don't remember the exact words!) All of that to say that Jamming block-constructed games with my buddy Alex Rochette (dat namedrop), i toyed with Disciple of Deceit and it made me realize that card is pretty cool!:) i brewed a pretty cool Disciple of Deceit deck! Yes, that U/B Uncommon from Journey To Nyx. I am going to break down individual card-choices and show you some tricks/subtilities! This is a spicy one, featuring one-of Brainstorm (don't stop reading!) and one-of Force of Will. The goal of showing you guys such a deck is to make people realise that even if staples are really expensive, there's still ways of being able to enter Legacy events and have a blast!


The idea is to abuse Disciple of Deceit without playing cards that are too narrow or falling in the danger of cool things but still playing power-houses that can single-handedly take over the game. Untapping with Disciple of Deceit even if it's just one time is really, really powerful with a card pool as wide as the Legacy format has to offer. In my 75, there's a lot of those. You know, that Meekstone against RUG Delver? Ouchhh.. That Darkblast against those 2 X/1s in play?

The problem is that Disciple needs to live 2 whole turns before giving you the candy. I wouldn't consider the 1/3 body as fragile because it's way more than enough to attack into most player's boards, like against Death-n-Taxes, or Elves, or Miracles, or just decks that are not playing creatures (Show and Tell doesn't count as a deck playing creatures!)
The best way to bypass that is Springleaf Drum. Springleaf Drum isn't quite the usual Legacy card besides in Affinity. Springleaf Drum pairs well with weak value guys (In Affinity, Ornithopter is kind of a value guy, since it fuels your Thoughtcasts, makes your Plating, Overseers better yadda-yadda) and also pairs well with Mox Opal. Those two fit well with artifact-lands, and Artifact-lands mana bases are like a gift from the gods to the guy that just wants to play Legacy and has no dual-lands.

Here's some cool shenanigans the deck has going on:
- Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy
- Hawks bodies feeding Cabal Therapy
- Binning Sword of the Meek at Discard-step by fetching 2/3 Squadron Hawks on turn 2
- Binning Sword of the Meek with Disciple of Deceit to transmute into Thopter Foundry (CHRISTMAS-LAND POWER!!!)
- Binning Therapies/Darkblast to Disciple of Deceit and still getting value out of the Flashback/Dredge
- Binning that additional Mox Opal to get an Engineered Explosives
The cool thing is that, individually, all the cards involved in those lines are all decent on their own. Even Squadron Hawk is legitimate!







Disciple Caws, a Legacy deck by Patrick Pichette

4 Disciple of Deceit
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Baleful Strix
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtcast
4 Springleaf Drum
3 Mox Opal
1 Meekstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Brainstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Darkblast
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Seachrome Coast
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers

SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Zuran Orb
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Meddling Mage


Let's explain some card-choices!

4 Disciple of Deceit
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Baleful Strix

Squadron Hawk synergizes well with the deck, as mentioned earlier.
Baleful Strix synergizes well with the Artifact-components of the deck, (Mox Opal, Thoughtcasts, Springleaf Drums) and is also one of your best cards against Tarmogoyf/Delver decks.

3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtcast
- This is our value package. Probe + Therapy is pretty much self explanatory, as well as Flashing Cabal Therapy with caws.
- Fetching Therapy after Therapy against unfair decks with Disciple is the bees knees.
- One mana Divination is sweet, and two-mana Divination is still decent!


4 Springleaf Drum
3 Mox Opal
- There is 4 Springleaf Drums because drawing two of them is probably better than drawing Zero because of how good at making Disciple of Deceit awesome. (Protip: Pitch the second copy in your Inspire trigger!)

1 Meekstone
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Brainstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Unearth

- Meekstone is very good against True-Name-Nemesis, Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalkers yadda-yadda.
- One of Brainstorm looks weird, but it all makes senses, because there is no fetchlands in the mana-base, it there to be tutored by transmuting that useless Needle/Meekstone/Drum and it's a card that is good if you have no specific bullets to get and what to develop. It also pairs veeeeeeeeerryyyyyyyyy well with Squadron Hawks!
- One of Force of Will is there to be transmuted with Thoughtcasts against combo decks where value isn't going to be enough.
- Unearth is indeed situational but at worst it cycles. At best it gets back that Squadron Hawk that just got dazed or that Disciple/Strix that got Bolted. Against combo decks post-board it can get back a Meddling Mage or a Canonist which is pretty relevant.

3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek

- This is the deck's main win condition. Remember the 2010 Extended Format!
Thopter Foundry is well supported and can be fed with useless Artifact-lands/Springleaf Drum when on its own, and this part of the deck is what you want to accomplish if you don't have to worry about what your opponent is doing. Thopter-Sword fits with Disciple of Deceit like Peas and Carrot!

4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Glimmervoid

Scars dual-lands is nothing to sneeze at! Your opponents are going to think you are a scrub and under-estimate you and the drawback is almost 100 % irrelevant.
Plus, you won't get Islandwalked! Woohoo! (Obviously, if you can play real dual-lands, just go for it and don't be a Hipster)
18 Lands plus Drums and Opals is enough to not short/flood. If your metagame has a lot of Tempo decks playing Wastelands or Death n Taxes deck you might want to squeeze-in a 19th land.
Sideboard is 100% narrow-ish trump cards. Darkblast for Elves/DNT, Cursed Totem for the Elves/Mother of Runes players, Meddling Mage synergizes well with both Cabal Therapy and Gitaxian Probe and is really good against Show and Tell decks and also fine against other combo decks, Graveyard hate is for.... well you get the point!:)

My bag is now empty. I hope you enjoyed the show and that made non-legacy players realise that there is quite a lot of awesome things you can do and that this format isn't just about Show and Tells and True-Name-Nemesises, and that you actually CAN enter Legacy even if you don't have those pricy format defining staples! This format is so much fun, i wouldn't want to see it die anytime soon!

Peace!

[Zupponn]

The deck looks solid, but it was your write up that really got me excited.

[randomly.anonymous]

4 Disciple of Deceit
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Baleful Strix

This engine seems like it will draw a bunch of cards and get you all your combo pieces once it gets going. The problem seems to be getting it to "go", as disciple needs to live a full turn with springleaf drums, or two full turns and combat without it.

I don't know what cards are out there, but maybe you can consider putting in some more enablers that allow you to tap creatures for some sort of value.

[cherub_daemon]

This engine seems like it will draw a bunch of cards and get you all your combo pieces once it gets going. The problem seems to be getting it to "go", as disciple needs to live a full turn with springleaf drums, or two full turns and combat without it.

I don't know what cards are out there, but maybe you can consider putting in some more enablers that allow you to tap creatures for some sort of value.

Well, there's Sky Hussar. There are four relevant Conspire cards: Disturbing Plot, Ghastly Discovery, Memory Sluice and Aethertow. Ghastly Discovery might be money? You would need more creatures to rely on these, I'd think.

Grand Architect is probably taking you down a different path, but it's there.

It's tough to search for ways to put creatures into play tapped. Dance of the Dead is the best I've got at the moment. What would be great would be a Root Maze for all creatures.

Also, the easiest way to survive combat for Disciple of Deceit is probably Maze of Ith, right?

[LordOMJ]

Pich, I want to say thanks for sharing this spicy brew. I've been lurking on the source for a long time, and this list finally brought me to registering an account.

I love the deck idea, and I'm definitely going to have to test it out.

cherub_daemon makes a great point with Maze of Ith - it simultaneously protects and triggers Disciple

I wonder if Tangle Wire has a home in this deck as a way to slow down the game to your pace and help you trigger Disciple outside of combat? Vedalken Certarch never found a home in affinity, but if the deck ends up deep enough on artifacts (i'm not sure that it will) it might be worth considering in small numbers.

[The_Dingo]

When I first saw disciple I thought that it would be cool in an opposition deck, and I have been thinking recently about tanglewire.

I like your deck quite a bit, especially your inclusion of sword of the meek and thopter foundry.

[Pich]

Opposition could be a nice Sideboard card against Show and Tell, i mean, how could they ever beat it?

[Memories of the Time]

Another great (and cheap) enabler is Field Surgeon

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Maybe you can try to squeeze in one of Swiftfoot Boots or Lightning Greaves, so that you got something to protect Disciple.Unfortunatel,y you need hexproof muchmore than shorud, as shroud invalidates Springleaf Drum, but then again Boots cost one more to equip. :frown:

[randomly.anonymous]

Opposition is a really cool idea. It seems like you might need Sol lands (Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors) to consistently ramp it out though. However, if it ever does come down with a bunch of critters, it would be pretty hard for your opponent to recover.

The other problem with combo decks is what they do when they don't get the combo. If you look at combo decks like ANT, their deck has so much redundancy that they can almost always combo off by turn 3 without disruption. Other decks like Recruiter Painter and Show/Tell have ways to consistently dig (cantrips, Sensei's Divining Top) or tutor (Recruiter, Intuition) for combo pieces.

I think the deck can really benefit from having SDT and E-Tutor and possibly Ponder/Preordain over some of the narrower cards like EE, Pithing Needle, and Meekstone.

[jjflipped]

I played this today (OP, moved ZP to SB to add a transmute artifact, cut zuran orb from the SB.) in a local event and I loved it.

I ended up splitting top4 and I'm posting something on my blog about it too, obviously giving credit for the list.

I'd like to explore this a bit more, even in vintage maybe.

I think this deck wants another 2 card combo that just wins (painter/grindstone seems ideal).

[Marowfreeze]

I love this deck idea, it's stuff like this that keeps me playing magic after so many years.
When I first saw the inspired mechanic I immediately thought of spring leaf drum but here is a few other ideas
Pain seer-you are already trying to take advantage of an inspired effect so why not more, this one draws you more and is at 2 mana ad well do perfect transmute target/user
Think twice-Chuck it to disciple then flash back later for value
Choking tethers-use it to get an inspired trigger, stall an attack a turn (actually use it to tap all of their creatures if need be) what's nice is the cycling is uncounterable(except by stifle effects) and unaffected by taxing effects.-fun side note is a house vs
sneak attack-Emrakrul because it can tap emmy down

I also like flood-it can be used offensively and defensively(trigger inspired and tap creatures before combat) but can obviously be very mana intensive


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[RokiLothbard]

This looks fun.

Does Elixir of Immortality go in the Sideboard?

two purposes I see are :

1) lets you recycle the Squadron Hawks in long grindy matches.

2) a little bit of anti-graveyard-hate. Not going to touch Rest in Peace obviously, but if they just
bring in a Relic, this either completely or sort-of counteracts it, depending on the circumstances.

And it is an artifact too.

And if I try it, I'll try it as is first, but it's hard for me to look at this and not want 1-2 Jaces or Tezzerets in there. Especially with Moxes and Springleaf drums in there. I don't want to turn it into a Tezz deck or classical Caw-blade, but getting one of those guys out on turn 3 or 4 seems like a solid Plan B that would synergize well with rest of deck.

[Pich]

Rainbow version maybe?

3 Mox Opal
4 Springleaf Drum

3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek

3 Baleful Strix
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Disciple of Deceit

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Zealous Persecution

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Faithless Loothing
1 Brainstorm

1 Force of Will
4 Thoughtcast

4 Glimmervoid
4 Mana Confluence
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Ancient Den

SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring

[klaus]

Careful Study / Faithless Looting are way better at what you try to achieve with this guy (but still so-so)
And there should be an Academy Ruins in your MD.

[Anusien]

If you're already running Sky Hussar, Hussar->Kiki-Jiki->Body Double is a kill.

To make this better than Fauna Shaman, you need one of the following things to be true:
1) You need to be able to activate it the turn it ETB
2) You need to activate it more than once
3) You need to tutor for something other than a creature
4) You need to get advantage from tapping it (using Opposition, attacking with Jitte, etc).

[Marowfreeze]

Careful Study / Faithless Looting are way better at what you try to achieve with this guy (but still so-so)
And there should be an Academy Ruins in your MD.

I agree with needing an academy ruins in the MD, but careful study and faithless looting don't go very well with the deck.
The only thing you need/really want to hit the gy is sword of the meek and the entire deck is built around using disciple to tutor for it/use disciple to throw it in the gy in the first place so careful study doesn't do much and splashing a fourth color for faithless looting would just raise cost more and open the deck up even further to wasteland

This is why I suggested think twice, toss it to tutor for either combo piece(sword/foundry) and still get use out of it by flashing it back to dig for either the other piece or something else to transmute



If you're already running Sky Hussar, Hussar->Kiki-Jiki->Body Double is a kill.

To make this better than Fauna Shaman, you need one of the following things to be true:
1) You need to be able to activate it the turn it ETB
2) You need to activate it more than once
3) You need to tutor for something other than a creature
4) You need to get advantage from tapping it (using Opposition, attacking with Jitte, etc).

This seems like a suggestion that would be better in U/W/R splintertwin

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[lucas_lucas_jr]

I'll test it this weekend wiht a couple of Opposition on sideboard.

Indeed, Trinket Mage seems like a toolbox, but maybe isn't too effective.

I truly love the deck! :laugh:

[kawaks]

hi
i've been brewing on my own and i thought about some possibilities and i wanted to have some feedback and reflection

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/557139-deciet-of-dominion

here i put some of my research, waiting for feedback on you thoughts

[pfiremc13]

I really like the idea for this deck.

I don't like pithing needle in the main; it seems too narrow. Unearth doesn't seem like something you'll be tutoring for a lot as you can't tutor for it if disciple is dead and you'll never tutor for it to cycle. Reanimating a strix is nice, but not worth it imo. I think you should cut something else like meekstone, ee, or brainstorm to make room for 3 more force of will (if you can afford them). They protect disciple and deal with threats and combo decks, and the blue count and card disadvantage are not problems in your deck. If you can't afford them, I would add another gitaxian probe and something else like a dismember.

Other things to consider:

-JTMS
-Stoneforge mystic
-Umezawa's jitte

[pfiremc13]

You listed unearth as a card choice but it doesn't seem to be in your list...

[pfiremc13]

Do you think treasure cruise belongs here?

[Memories of the Time]

Do you think treasure cruise belongs here?

I think in a deck with many 1-2x Dig Through Time is better.
Anyway, M15 has given to this deck new Convoke cards: Return to the Ranks and Stain the mind.

[Memories of the Time]

Exhume on this thread!
I'm thinking in these days about Disciple because i believe that Bitterblossom+Opposition is a powerful combo right now against tempo, miracle (bitterblossom+equio) and Eldrazi, and disciple perfectly fixs with them.
I've tried many different lists, like Grixis-Welder, Shardless Bug ones and so on without finding the right mix of a good manabase and enablers.
What do you think guys?

[Begle1]

I think the new land Holdout Settlement might be the best thing that ever happened to the Inspired mechanic.
Squawk + Disciple of Deceit/ Pain Seer + Tanglewire/ Holdout Settlement/ Springleaf Drum + Giant Toolbox seems like a fun enough thing to try though.

I'm not seeing a deck here though.


Opposition plus Bitterblossom seems a touch too clunky to do much.

[Redkid43]

Maze of Ith seems like a total all star here because you can abuse it mid-combat--similar to the old Knight of the Reliquary trick with timing. At the end of combat, even if it dealt damage, it is still considered an attacking creature which will let you untap with Maze. You can also tutor for say a removal spell or something to kill something mid combat.

Pitch sword to get foundry seems great.

Love it. What a tight brew this is and id love to see it develop more.

[Ricardio]

this is a wonderful idea. Glad it is seeing more discussion.

I skimmed through and saw that no one suggested Tez AoG or trinket mage.

[square_two]

This is like, a pod deck without pod.

I could see even something like Frogmite acting as a way to tutor up Helm for a combo kill. Discarding Sword of the Meek to tutor Thopter Foundry is just very fluid though. Are there any other direct 2 card combos that could easily be played here and abused with tutoring? I'm not sure what else is out there that has strong individual parts which also work cohesively with everything else. Painter + Grindstone are both cheap and thus have plenty of ways to tutor for them (discard Cabal Therapy for Grindstone??) and also work well with the artifact theme.