Khans of Tarkir:

[TsumiBand]

Yeah, it's definitely an EDH plant. It's funny because at least around these parts the whole copy/steal aspect of Blue has apparently largely been forgotten about or left behind, either because it was widely regarded as a dick move or because it somehow quit being good. Knowing these yokels I would guess the former; there's no way Bribery started to suck in EDH and no one told me. Besides, I need stealing to still be good so when I build Skeleton Ship it makes sense that I have all these crappy Pirates in the main (because pirates steal things, right).

EDIT: Whoamg, that's weird about Auras and no targets and all that jazz. Is that the result of a 'recent' change? That feels like an oddity to me...

[rufus]

...
Quick question for judges out there - if I copy an aura with this, what happens? Is the aura attached to anything? If so, when do I choose what it's going to enchant?

Not a judge, but it works like auras with Replenish - you can attach it to a legal object without targeting.



303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by
resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object
or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the
battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant
ability and any other applicable effects

[iamajellydonut]

I stand corrected. And, actually, now that I think about it, that makes quite a bit of sense.

[Offler]

Copy Enchantment

Check ruling at gatherer:

"If you choose an Aura, you also choose a legal permanent for the Copy Enchantment copy of it to enchant. Copy Enchantment doesn't target that permanent, however, so it can enter the battlefield attached to an untargetable creature."

Another side effect is that Clever impersonator may be attached to creatures with hexproof or shroud. In this situation it does not "target" but "choose" permanent to be attached to. Trust me I am a je... blue wizard :) This is why Blue causes headaches, and loss of all friends.

Anyway, first decend card in whole set.

[rufus]

It's a pity the CC on Rakshasa Vizier is so high. That ability has potential.

[JanoschEausH]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/mantisrider.jpg

What do you think of this guy? It's a bit expensive but it sould carry a Jitte pretty good.

[Echelon]

Incredibly hard to cast Delver that attacks a turn later then regular Delver, assuming you cast Delver T1 and flip it T2.

[JanoschEausH]

Incredibly hard to cast Delver that attacks a turn later then regular Delver, assuming you cast Delver T1 and flip it T2.

Yeah maybe... If it had hexproof instead of vigilance, then we had a good creature.

[iamajellydonut]

This trend of "take good card. make better" is getting kind of old. I don't mind good cards being printed, but it feels a lot like they've been patching the game.

[Offler]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/mantisrider.jpg

What do you think of this guy? It's a bit expensive but it sould carry a Jitte pretty good.

Lightning angel?

[TsumiBand]

I really really really hope that's a mock-up because it uses the wrong "it's" to indicate possession.

Even a [____] would devour its rider if it ever loses its concentration.

EDIT: BTW, what about Mindswipe. I saw it and liked it.

Mindswipe X:u::r:

Instant

Counter target spell unless its controller pays X. Mindswipe deals X damage to that spell's controller.


Maybe because I still feel like the old school Counterburn decks that never really got off the ground before Delver etc. were interesting in concept. But this seems like one of those things where its ability to pull double-duty as tempo and an assist with the win-con (or maybe even actually gets the win, who knows) gives it a very cool function. You could punch a planeswalker in the face with it too if need be. And with the requisite free counter suite of Force/Daze and whatnot at your disposal, you obviously can still tap out and have options. Even if they pay X, they still take X -- which I always thought would be a neat way to do a Red counterspell (too bad about the :u: in the cost, but yeah whatcha gonna do).

I don't think it is the most borken of borks of all time, but I think it is very cool.

[iamajellydonut]

I really really really hope that's a mock-up because it uses the wrong "it's" to indicate possession.

It says "MOCKUP" on the card.

[TsumiBand]

It says "MOCKUP" on the card.

Ah yes it does!

In tiny ass letters that I wouldn't have seen if no one told me. Who looks at the artist unless they want to see if its the one they always look out for, anyway. "Ohshi is that.... hey, it IS Rebecca Guay! NAILED IT"

[Offler]

It says "MOCKUP" on the card.
The english version is a mockup. German does not look like that

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/mantis-rider/

Edit: Althought I dont know if its normal to use comma in creature type "Human, Monk" on german cards lately...

[iamajellydonut]

Edit: Althought I dont know if its normal to use comma in creature type "Human, Monk" on german cards lately...

It is.

[Aggro_zombies]

This trend of "take good card. make better" is getting kind of old. I don't mind good cards being printed, but it feels a lot like they've been patching the game.
Actually, they made it worse. Now your Lightning Angel trades with a flipped Delver and dies to Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay. Considering how common those three cards specifically are, I'd say they torpedo any chance of this card seeing play over its predecessor, a card which sees no play and hasn't for years.

[AngryTroll]

(Lightning Angel...) a card which sees no play and hasn't for years.
Which is a real shame.

[Aggro_zombies]

Which is a real shame.
I agree, the card is quite fun even it is the victim of creature power creep. It just amuses me that in the case of this card specifically, removing a mana from its mana cost makes it worse since it now puts it into reach of an uncounterable, instant-speed Maelstrom Pulse in addition to all the other stuff that already kills it.

[Morte]

Probably the best of the series:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/savageknuckleblade.jpg

[Meekrab]

@Darkenslight:
It (Cackling Doom) only deals 2 dmg to all your opponents but not to any creatures. It is basically an edict with a big upside.
Another way to kill TNN and Emrakul, at least. For all the WRB decks that exist in Legacy. >_>

[Darkenslight]

This trend of "take good card. make better" is getting kind of old. I don't mind good cards being printed, but it feels a lot like they've been patching the game.

You're forgetting that Delver was a common.

[Lemnear]

You're forgetting that Delver was a common.

Would you have prefered it being a mythic?

[iamajellydonut]

You're forgetting that Delver was a common.

This is literally entirely irrelevant.

My point was Mantis Rider vs Lightning Angel. As our cruel and inspiring yet oppressive overlord correctly decreed, Mantis Rider still won't see play because of its weirdly increased vulnerability, but that doesn't mean it's not still a blatant attempt at increasing Card A's power.

[Cire]

Hardened Scales G
Enchantment
If one or more +1/+1 counters would be placed on a creature you control, that many plus one +1/+1 counters are placed on it instead.

Probably, almost definitely, not a good card, but looks fun.

[Heresy]

https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10629623_764512540273201_8927572728768231140_n.png?oh=06e4e83cf15abcea9a992dd7f681b8c8&oe=54873752

Translation : At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top two cards of your library. Put any number of them into your graveyard and the rest on top of your library in any order.

[joven]

This trend of "take good card. make better" is getting kind of old. I don't mind good cards being printed, but it feels a lot like they've been patching the game.

Well, the game is over 20 years old. Almost everything has been there in some sort or another. Do really expect every card to be a completely original design? It's not possible.
And it is generally pretty sick to expect a lot of Legacy playable cards in every new set after 20 years of power creep.

[LOLWut]

I smell a graveyard hate card coming in Fate Reforged or the 3rd set.

[iamajellydonut]

Well, the game is over 20 years old. Almost everything has been there in some sort or another. Do really expect every card to be a completely original design? It's not possible.
And it is generally pretty sick to expect a lot of Legacy playable cards in every new set after 20 years of power creep.

I don't expect everything to be a completely clean and original design, but when you come across a card that's basically Clark Kent without glasses, you have to wonder if they reeeally couldn't have just mixed up the abilities or the mana cost or the power and toughness a liiittle bit more.

[TsumiBand]

Okay let's don't talk about Mindswipe then, whatever, it's cool, I'm mod 2 == 1

[iamajellydonut]

It's a Power Sink that costs more and deals 2 damage to the dome?

I think that if it was creature or player instead of just player that I'd be a lot more interested in the card.

[rufus]

I think Mindswipe seems like a card that tries to be two things at once, and ends up being worse than either individually: The counter aspect is very cc sensitive, and the burn doesn't like being conditional, X cost, or only at players.

I had thought that something like Mindless Automaton or Walking Archive would work well with Hardened Scales but it's not quite there.

Empty the Pits seems like a card with great potential -- dig through the deck using Careful Study,Faithless Looting and the like, and then explode into a zombie horde with extra-effective fast mana cards.

[Sloshthedark]

Onslaught fetch is worthless unless its foil. If you don't care about pimping, you can settle for the cheapest version which is Khans of Tarkir. However, foil Tarkir fetch might be worth something as modern players probably want an all-modern layout deck and this is the first (not the last) with the new frame. Same thing with Rav duals.

but current owners of Onslaught fetchlands won't sell them "cheap" unless they need to, there is no economical reason to do so unless there are signs of permanent price decrease/next wave of reprints (lets say MM2), logic says keeping or even buying after the price settles after release. Btw. miriade of in fact shit cards prices are inflated due to psychology not demand/quantity

I thing it hurts Onslaught foils in fact judge foils most, those will get really hard to sell, foil people care about foil first (see horse shit ugly vintage staples)

[Finn]

It's a Power Sink that costs more and deals 2 damage to the dome?

I think that if it was creature or player instead of just player that I'd be a lot more interested in the card.

It's not really a Power Sink. I mean, there are certainly cards of this sort out there, but Power Sink has that really cool mana denial aspect that makes it part Mana Short or something. And I don't like it at all either. I mean, compare it to Undermine. Poopie.

[iamajellydonut]

It's not really a Power Sink. I mean, there are certainly cards of this sort out there, but Power Sink has that really cool mana denial aspect that makes it part Mana Short or something.

There's nothing that's straight up XU counter. They all have scry this or buyback that. :(

[TsumiBand]

Well I forgot about Undermine. But meh! I still just like Mindswipe. vOv

Empty the Pits is basically a distributed Pyschatog though right? Like, you get +2 power on the board for every two cards in your graveyard, or I guess if you have a shit ton of mana too (otherwise it's 6 mana for a 2/2 that ETB tapped. Bugger that).

I only bring that up because the deck that would support such a card is probably a lot like a modern Psychatog deck; tempo until lethal, then dick punch. It seems like if it were going to be a thing, Tog woulda been a thing first. Maybe I'm misevaluating the card, but that was the first thing I thought of when I realized how it tries to seal the deal - any deck that would really want to play this card would probably look a lot like Tog 2014.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

but current owners of Onslaught fetchlands won't sell them "cheap" unless they need to, there is no economical reason to do so unless there are signs of permanent price decrease/next wave of reprints (lets say MM2), logic says keeping or even buying after the price settles after release. Btw. miriade of in fact shit cards prices are inflated due to psychology not demand/quantity

I thing it hurts Onslaught foils in fact judge foils most, those will get really hard to sell, foil people care about foil first (see horse shit ugly vintage staples)

Exactly. That's the reason why I bought Tonda's Heaths back during Prague's Eternal; not even though it was obvious that reprints are knocking at door, but in fact exactly because of it.
Of course that I may get burned, but the temptation was too strong, moreover I don't really believe they'd turn fetchlands into painlands 2.0, because there are several aspects/reasons why this ain't possible, discontinuation of base sets being one of them.

Still, all this is becoming really silly, see the "40-bucks fetch is an ass-cheap matter" Tsumi wrote about. Exactly what I wrote to my Heaths' dealer just today: when I started back in 1996 we bought Erhnam Djinns for 90 crowns (2 bucks) and yeah, that was some pretty expensive Type II stuff. Idk if it's due to game's popularity, overall crappiness of boosters, or because of rich and bored people's mentality, but what happened in Magic's secondary market is both fascinating and disgusting.

I'm more and more inclined to shift to either a different game at all (btw, one that's not overly complicated and full of stupid and/or ugly horsecrap), or at least switch to some community-driven format which is not EDH or Old School, as both of them are insanely expensive. But then again this brings all sort of diffrent troubles, as non-Magic games have their own faults (one of them clearly being: them not being Magic; one wouldn't substitute hand-made thigh-rolled cigar for an industrial cigarette filled with second-grade tobacco), and the tier2 formats are mostly niche business except for maybe Pauper which is (they say) overruned by Delver.


On the KTK topic:

I really like the tri-color dudes, but shame they won't see the play outside of Limited simply because of power creep and other reasons, one of them being Abrupt Decay. But then again we're definitely sick of operational blindness; allegedly there are other formats then just Legacy, and these creatures might have an impact in Standard.

I'm not exactly thrilled of the Empty the Pits, for the reasons stated and also because kinda grave-based deck has better and faster things to do then put six rats otb on turn5+. But then again: while something like Ichorid can be easily hated by say Cage, delve is not that easy to stop, as the thing it does is that it uses the graveyard, a place where cards naturally end, as another resource without being totally dependant on it. I'm not sure if 20 delve cards, 20 Rituals, 20 Swamps is a good start, but I'm interested if this mechanic will have some impact.
Still the "why we wouldn't play Tog then?" question remains unanswered. But maybe Tog simply sucks in a format full of removal - Decay exists -, and if you wanted to build a deck rooted in grave, then you definitely had better options then rely on an otherwise crappy 1/2 dude; enter generic Goyf rant.

Sorry that I was too prolix about the fetchlands reprint and maybe it would fit better into a different thread, but I wanted to continue where Slosh ended.

Btw, Savage Knucklebeard, as a three-mana 4/4 with some interesting abilities, seems like a pretty nice card for those who love creatures. Tags: nostalgia, Alliances, wallpaper.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlMtTY-ZGGwVADTmqQXkycCuxKwZ9oaku5qntZxrRqtLqnniFLNw

[rufus]

...
Empty the Pits is basically a distributed Pyschatog though right? Like, you get +2 power on the board for every two cards in your graveyard, or I guess if you have a shit ton of mana too (otherwise it's 6 mana for a 2/2 that ETB tapped. Bugger that).
...

It's not 1-shot effect, so if it works well, I'd expect it to be more like some kind of Empty the Warrens where you pop a bunch of bodies on the table, and swing for the win in a turn or two.

[iamajellydonut]

Fetch Land->Ritual->Lotus Petal->Empty the Pits is three 2/2 tokens. Mix in some random Probes or Wraiths or some random discard or excess mana and you have the makings of an ez wincon. Hell, I could even see sort of a Belcher variant that uses lands.

[Megadeus]

Knuckledragger orwhatever maybe good enough for like a next level thresh deck?

[Geet]

Fetch Land->Ritual->Lotus Petal->Empty the Pits is three 2/2 tokens. Mix in some random Probes or Wraiths or some random discard or excess mana and you have the makings of an ez wincon. Hell, I could even see sort of a Belcher variant that uses lands.

Read the card again. That's ONE 2/2 token. It's XX, not X. I made the same mistake at first glance.

I also feel like this has potential as Tog 2014. It's actually better than Tog in some ways because it's instant speed. In the standard UB or UBg builds of Tog, you had to protect that guy for a turn. Also, as mentioned before, you don't have to blow your load in one shot, you can attack spread out over a few turns. That being said, I'm not sure what advantage this hypothetical deck would have over a typical dredge build.

[Richard Cheese]

Empty the Pits just gave me a huge Griselboner.

[lyracian]

Knuckledragger orwhatever maybe good enough for like a next level thresh deck?
Being able to jump back to your hand or be a 6/6 gives it options and it is a creature that does not need the Graveyard. It certainly seems powerful enough to try out.


Empty the Pits seems like a card with great potential -- dig through the deck using Careful Study,Faithless Looting and the like, and then explode into a zombie horde with extra-effective fast mana cards.
I am wondering if it could work as a finisher in Pox. Between discard, smallpox and Lilly you get enough cards into the yard. It reads as BBBB, exile your graveyard get some Zombies.

[iamajellydonut]

Read the card again. That's ONE 2/2 token. It's XX, not X. I made the same mistake at first glance.

Oh, that's greeeat. Went from interesting and playable to a complete sack of shit.

[Zombie]

Still, all this is becoming really silly, see the "40-bucks fetch is an ass-cheap matter" Tsumi wrote about.

I'm more and more inclined to shift to either a different game at all (btw, one that's not overly complicated and full of stupid and/or ugly horsecrap), or at least switch to some community-driven format which is not EDH or Old School, as both of them are insanely expensive. But then again this brings all sort of diffrent troubles, as non-Magic games have their own faults (one of them clearly being: them not being Magic; one wouldn't substitute hand-made thigh-rolled cigar for an industrial cigarette filled with second-grade tobacco), and the tier2 formats are mostly niche business except for maybe Pauper which is (they say) overruned by Delver.

http://i.imgur.com/r9FxgsH.jpg
Boxes = 1850 cards
Sleeves = 5 cards
Price: About the same
Game quality = amazing

Easy math, IMO.

[DLifshitz]

Game quality = amazing

Also: Neuroshima Hex.

[Barook]

https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10629623_764512540273201_8927572728768231140_n.png?oh=06e4e83cf15abcea9a992dd7f681b8c8&oe=54873752

Translation : At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top two cards of your library. Put any number of them into your graveyard and the rest on top of your library in any order.
It's an interesting card filter. Not sure how it compares to Sylvan Library, though, especially at 3 colored mana.

[iamajellydonut]

Not sure how it compares to Sylvan Library, though, especially at 3 colored mana.

I'll give you a hint... It's somewhere between "pretty poorly" and "awful".

[from Cairo]

https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10629623_764512540273201_8927572728768231140_n.png?oh=06e4e83cf15abcea9a992dd7f681b8c8&oe=54873752

Translation : At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top two cards of your library. Put any number of them into your graveyard and the rest on top of your library in any order.

It's an interesting card filter. Not sure how it compares to Sylvan Library, though, especially at 3 colored mana.

I feel it's quite a bit worse than Phyrexian Arena. It's certainly much worse than Sylvan Library.

[MGB]

No actual card advantage = no good at all. Both Arena and Library actually let you put extra cards in your hand, which is key for these types of cards.

Is it just me or is this set ridiculously underpowered?

[rufus]

...
Is it just me or is this set ridiculously underpowered?

Compared to Theros? It seems like there are some cards worth thinking about in the third that we've seen so far:

Clever Impersonator
Empty the Pits
Mardu Skullhunter
Howl of the Horde
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant

That, plus the fetchlands, seems about right for legacy.

[Arsenal]

This set is very, very clearly catering to the EDH/Cube crowd. From the emphasis on fatties to the way cards are worded like "each opponent", it's an EDH/Cube party and Legacy wasn't invited. Anafenza is going to be BONKERS for Melira Pod though, jesus christ almighty.

[Lemnear]

Compared to Theros? It seems like there are some cards worth thinking about in the third that we've seen so far:

Clever Impersonator
Empty the Pits
Mardu Skullhunter
Howl of the Horde
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant

That, plus the fetchlands, seems about right for legacy.

Honestly, I don't see a Legacy playable within those cards

[Barook]

This set is very, very clearly catering to the EDH/Cube crowd. From the emphasis on fatties to the way cards are worded like "each opponent", it's an EDH/Cube party and Legacy wasn't invited. Anafenza is going to be BONKERS for Melira Pod though, jesus christ almighty.
Anafenza seems alright, but I don't the the OMFG part about in Melira Pod.

@Lemnear: I think Howl of the Horde has the most potential so far, since it gives Burn faster average kills if it turns out to be good in said deck.

[Dice_Box]

I do need to think much of the set from my a Legacy stand point, but I am going to draft the hell out of this set. Looks like a fun draft set.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Also: Neuroshima Hex.

Fun phone game, but don't the rules get super clunky in person? I guess we're all magic players so some level of "holy crap how many rules apply here" happens a lot, but it's my favorite game for phone and I wouldn't play it in person.

[Valtrix]

Anafenza seems alright, but I don't the the OMFG part about in Melira Pod.

She's basically an creature version of gavony township (though more limited since only one creature), turning the army of random guys you put onto the board into a real threat. But, not only that, is that she hoses all of the other pod decks that you run into. It's also a 4/4 on it's own which is very respectable, and somewhat tough to remove in modern.

[joven]

Is it just me or is this set ridiculously underpowered?

True, the overall powerlevel is a bit underwhelming so far, even for me. But we have seen less than a third. So be patient.
I thought they would try to reinvent Aggro with the Mardu Clan. But so far there are just the two 3-color 5cc bombs, not much more.


--

Well, face it, people, Legacy is too fucked up:
- a 3/2 flying for U
- a 3/1 protection from opponent(!) for 1UU
- a 5/6 for 1G
- a 4/4 lifelink for (basically) 1W
- a 7/7 lifelink (that draws a lot of cards) or a 15/15 Eldrazi (with Annihilator and protection for colored spells) for 2U
- exile target creature for W
...
There is no room for new cards!

[MGB]

True, the overall powerlevel is a bit underwhelming so far, even for me. But we have seen less than a third. So be patient.
I thought they would try to reinvent Aggro with the Mardu Clan. But so far there are just the two 3-color 5cc bombs, not much more.


--

Well, face it, people, Legacy is too fucked up:
- a 3/2 flying for U
- a 3/1 protection from opponent(!) for 1UU
- a 5/6 for 1G
- a 4/4 lifelink for (basically) 1W
- a 7/7 lifelink (that draws a lot of cards) or a 15/15 Eldrazi (with Annihilator and protection for colored spells) for 2U
- exile target creature for W
...
There is no room for new cards!

They could still print a 1-mana 12/12 Trample.

Oh wait...

[iamajellydonut]

Well, face it, people, Legacy is too fucked up:
- a 3/2 flying for U
- a 3/1 protection from opponent(!) for 1UU
- a 5/6 for 1G
- a 4/4 lifelink for (basically) 1W
- a 7/7 lifelink (that draws a lot of cards) or a 15/15 Eldrazi (with Annihilator and protection for colored spells) for 2U
- exile target creature for W
...

And despite all of that, the best creature in the format is still a 1/2 mana dork.

[Aggro_zombies]

This set is very, very clearly catering to the EDH/Cube crowd. From the emphasis on fatties to the way cards are worded like "each opponent", it's an EDH/Cube party and Legacy wasn't invited. Anafenza is going to be BONKERS for Melira Pod though, jesus christ almighty.
"Each opponent" and "target opponent" are the same thing in like 90+% of 1v1 games. There's no reason for them to not to slightly change the text to also cater to their casual players given that probably most of Magic's games are played casually.

[joven]

And despite all of that, the best creature in the format is still a 1/2 mana dork.

Then why is it just at 6-7 EUR while Goyf is at 125 EUR ?

[trollking21]

Then why is it just at 6-7 EUR while Goyf is at 125 EUR ?

The amount of deathrites that exists are way higher then the amount of goyf's out there. Same reason tabernacle is the most expensive land, but definitely not the most played

[LOLWut]

Then why is it just at 6-7 EUR while Goyf is at 125 EUR ?

Posted for the hahas I hope?

[joven]

The amount of deathrites that exists are way higher then the amount of goyf's out there. Same reason tabernacle is the most expensive land, but definitely not the most played

Sure, sure, but a factor 20 ? Future Sight is not that long ago, also Goyf was reprinted in Modern Masters (although Wizards was overly cautious not to overprint that set). Goyf's value isn't just because there are fewer than e.g. DRS.
Tabernacle is really old and therefore in extremely limited numbers. Also, in contrast to Tabernacle Goyf is not on the reserved list. Goyf will almost definitely see more print.

Well, I guess the answer is Modern where Goyf is also widely played while DRS is banned for now.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

DRS were going for almost $50 untill they were banned. Tarmogoyf is holding its value cause it is the best agro creature in magic, secondly Goyf is still legal. Once modern masters rotates out, Goyf will drop quite significantly, but will probably remain a strong $100 card. Personally, I would rather play TNN over Goyf if I was a new player cause of the price difference.

[Dice_Box]

Modern Masters rotate out? Wtf?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Modern Masters rotate out? Wtf?

Exactly, not gonna happen for a very long time, hence Goyf will remain pricy, plus the popularity in legacy keeps his price up. Bottomline, we will not see a price drop until a reprint or a better creature is introduced.

[PirateKing]

Exactly, not gonna happen for a very long time, hence Goyf will remain pricy, plus the popularity in legacy keeps his price up. Bottomline, we will not see a price drop until a reprint or a better creature is introduced.

Doubling down on the wtf, I like it.

[iamajellydonut]

Sure, sure, but a factor 20 ? Future Sight is not that long ago, also Goyf was reprinted in Modern Masters (although Wizards was overly cautious not to overprint that set). Goyf's value isn't just because there are fewer than e.g. DRS.

Are we actually having this discussion?

1) The price difference has no bearing on each card's effectiveness.

2) The print run of Deathrite Shaman shits on Tarmogoyf. Literally shits on Tarmogoyf. "But what ab-" SHITS ON TARMOGOYF.

3) Tarmogoyf has a very turbulent eight year history to Deathrite Shaman's "still in Standard". Most of that eight years being spent, contrary to whatever horror stories may exist, sub 50 USD.

[Barook]

DRS were going for almost $50 untill they were banned.
How about no - more like 16$ bucks. (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Return+to+Ravnica/Deathrite+Shaman#paper)

And Future Sight cards in general are rather rare due to being a not very popular set AND being the third set of the block.

[Lord Seth]

Are we actually having this discussion?

1) The price difference has no bearing on each card's effectiveness.

2) The print run of Deathrite Shaman shits on Tarmogoyf. Literally shits on Tarmogoyf. "But what ab-" SHITS ON TARMOGOYF.

3) Tarmogoyf has a very turbulent eight year history to Deathrite Shaman's "still in Standard". Most of which was spent, contrary to whatever horror stories may exist, sub 50 USD.Forget most; try "all." I'm not even sure Deathrite Shaman ever got above $20.

Maybe some crazy store out there was selling it for $50, but that store was probably selling Giant Growths for $5.

[iamajellydonut]

Forget most; try "all." I'm not even sure Deathrite Shaman ever got above $20.

Maybe some crazy store out there was selling it for $50, but that store was probably selling Giant Growths for $5.

I hate that the jollygreenreefer guy had to make that dumbass post. What I meant, and what would have been clear had he not posted, was that Tarmogoyf spent a very good portion of its life sub $50. People remember that his price was "outrageous" and they know he's buylist $150 now, so they tend to think it was always so. But the truth is it wasn't. This spike in staples price is only very, very recent. Keep in mind that you could get a Wasteland for $10 in 2010.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Keep in mind that you could get a Wasteland for $10 in 2010 in Antarctica.
ftfy.


Is there any reason why the set looks so weak? Do they really preview the worse cards and then continuosuly show us better to make people thrilled, or is it the other way around and once the whole set will be spoiled, we'll realize that the 3-mana 3/3 angel was the best card?
I like the set from the Limited point of view, it might be funny to draft... which I frankly can't tell, as I never did it, but then again when I see those creatures, it's not that hard to tell they make for an interesting combat. But what's there for Legacy? so far nothig, right?

[trollking21]

ftfy.


Is there any reason why the set looks so weak? Do they really preview the worse cards and then continuosuly show us better to make people thrilled, or is it the other way around and once the whole set will be spoiled, we'll realize that the 3-mana 3/3 angel was the best card?
I like the set from the Limited point of view, it might be funny to draft... which I frankly can't tell, as I never did it, but then again when I see those creatures, it's not that hard to tell they make for an interesting combat. But what's there for Legacy? so far nothig, right?

Nothing new regardless fetch reprints is enough for me

[iamajellydonut]

ftfy.

I was actually being quite serious.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah $50 deathrite shaman....in foil. In nonfoil it never went above 20 and 20 was stretching it. Also, price has to do with powerlevel? Nice playset of brainstorms you have there, how much did they set you back? I'm sure it costed you a fortune to obtain a full playset.

I would argue that stoneforge mystic is better than goyf as well. Price? $20. You can't make price arguments about cards at all. The price is a nonfactor when determining a cards power level.

[Finn]

I wonder about the remarkably low power of this set. So far, there really seems to be nothing for us whatsoever, and this is very odd considering the multicolor-themed sets are typically ratcheted up in power because of the color requirements. But even the charms look pretty meh in this one. I wonder if wotc is making this weak as a calculation that reprinted fetchies will bolster sales. It seems like a sure thing there. I had been thinking that I would do things this way if I was making these decisions.

[Dice_Box]

I think it's a set that has lots to offer EDH and limited. At this point, after Void Snare and Sage, I am contempt to get a set with nothing. Plus, this looks like a fun draft set. So much mana fixing, I can not wait to draft it.

[Megadeus]

I think it's a set that has lots to offer EDH and limited. At this point, after Void Snare and Sage, I am contempt to get a set with nothing. Plus, this looks like a fun draft set. So much mana fixing, I can not wait to draft it.

I mean, to be fair, did either of those 2 cards really do anything besides become a 1 or 2 of in a select few decks? Nic Fit (maybe) and Elves for Sage and Storm decks with burning wish for Snare

[Dice_Box]

They did more than nothing and they where not exactly the first things spoiled.

[Megadeus]

New Dega charm is actually fairly sweet.

[Allcoin]

This is actually looking like the most decent card in the set so far... http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/07/c36542b9bf09d4871d0599db05da4a22.jpg

[Lemnear]

This is actually looking like the most decent card in the set so far... http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/07/c36542b9bf09d4871d0599db05da4a22.jpg

BG Nantuko Shade and manasink. Isn't a BG 2/2 far below what we are used to see for a gold card? The pump is also far too expensive

[nevilshute]

On the other hand it is a demon cat... that's pretty sweet :smile:

[Barook]

BG Nantuko Shade and manasink. Isn't a BG 2/2 far below what we are used to see for a gold card? The pump is also far too expensive
I agree. Might be good enough for Standard, but I doubt this could even make an impact in Modern. It's far too mana-intensive for that and Nantuko Shade doesn't see play anymore for good reason.


On the other hand it is a demon cat... that's pretty sweet :smile:
I'm still waiting for some sweet-ass Demon Knights.

[Darkenslight]

MTG FB Asia card:

Name Unknown :r: :w:
Instant
PRevent all damage that would be dealt by a source of your choice this turn. If damage is prevented this way, ~ deals that much damage to its controller.

[Tylert]

MTG FB Asia card:

Name Unknown :r: :w:
Instant
PRevent all damage that would be dealt by a source of your choice this turn. If damage is prevented this way, ~ deals that much damage to its controller.

The translation varies a lot: "Would be dealt TO YOU by..." or "Would be dealt by...". first option is lame. It's not a good combat trick anymore.

[iamajellydonut]

It's not a good combat trick anymore.

It wasn't in the first place. If it were, Harm's Way would be the end all of tricks. But no one runs it. And this new thing is two copies, two mana, and can't hit creatures.

[iamajellydonut]

In other news, dat turtle. Too bad YW Tang is a nobody and I will never own a print of its hot ass.

[(nameless one)]

In other news, dat turtle. Too bad YW Tang is a nobody and I will never own a print of its hot ass.

I love the flavor behind the slow trip turtle. Too bad it's not playable.

[iamajellydonut]

Too bad it's not playable.

Says you.

[Cire]

Temur Charm RUG
Choose one —
• Target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. That creature fights target creature you don't control.
• Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
• Creatures with power 3 or less can't block this turn.

Mardu Charm RBW
Choose one —
• Mardu Charm deals 4 damage to target creature.
• Put two 1/1 white Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield. They gain first strike until end of turn.
• Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a noncreature, nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

On a related note - I would love for a 24 land 36 Charm deck to be playable . . . just because. :tongue:

[Megadeus]

Temur Charm RUG
Choose one —
• Target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. That creature fights target creature you don't control.
• Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
• Creatures with power 3 or less can't block this turn.

Mardu Charm RBW
Choose one —
• Mardu Charm deals 4 damage to target creature.
• Put two 1/1 white Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield. They gain first strike until end of turn.
• Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a noncreature, nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

On a related note - I would love for a 24 land 36 Charm deck to be playable . . . just because. :tongue:

gotta but a few charms for Chromanticore as your finisher

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Murderous Cut seems like an awesome card for Grixis Delver. It is a bit awkward with Dark Confidant if you run it but I basically read it as an Instant for 1 Black mana that destroys target creature. Since Grixis Delver does not particularly care about its own graveyard it is a sweet efficient cheap spell to fuel Young Pyromancer.

Of course you probably want to run just 1.

[Megadeus]

Nah man. It's totally replacing swords to plowshares as a 4 of in every deck

[iamajellydonut]

Murderous Cut seems like an awesome card for Grixis Delver. It is a bit awkward with Dark Confidant if you run it but I basically read it as an Instant for 1 Black mana that destroys target creature. Since Grixis Delver does not particularly care about its own graveyard it is a sweet efficient cheap spell to fuel Young Pyromancer.

Of course you probably want to run just 1.

Then Disfigure came along and stole your woman and your house and drove away in your car.

Anyway, unless a fairly costed EtB bear or a draw spell rolls around, I don't think we're going to see anything useful from Delve.

[siqatzi]

http://www.bigmagic.net/news/image/tktpreview.jpg

Apparently: "~Adamant Negation
U
Instant - Uncommon
Counter target non-creature spell unless its controller pays 1.
Ferocious - If you control a creature with power 4 or greater, counter that spell instead."

Might this be playable? With 'goyf on the battlefield, Negate for :u: seems good.

[Vicar in a tutu]

http://www.bigmagic.net/news/image/tktpreview.jpg

Apparently: "~Adamant Negation
U
Instant - Uncommon
Counter target non-creature spell unless its controller pays 1.
Ferocious - If you control a creature with power 4 or greater, counter that spell instead."

Might this be playable? With 'goyf on the battlefield, Negate for :u: seems good.
Spell Pierce is probably better, but this is still a cool card.

[iamajellydonut]

As neat as that counterspell is, RUG is the only deck that runs both Tarmogoyf and Spell Pierce, and I think that the reliability of Spell Pierce beats out a conditional Force Spike with conditional hard counter.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Then Disfigure came along and stole your woman and your house and drove away in your car.

Anyway, unless a fairly costed EtB bear or a draw spell rolls around, I don't think we're going to see anything useful from Delve.

Disfigure is not as good in Grixis Delver I think.

You have 4 Lightning Bolt, you don't really need another removal spell for small creatures. The deck used to play Dismember because of its cheap cost alongside Young Pyromancer. Murderous Cut could take that space easily. The deck fills the gy rapidly and has no real use for it, some iterations of the deck run DRS but still... Murderous Cut can kill Tarmogoyf, Batterskull, Serra's Avanger, Primeval Titan, Griselbrand, Brimaz, Iona, Elesh-Norn and so on which Disfigure can not.
Although the deck can often ignore Tarmogoyf and swarm with YP tokens, killing him still considerably improves the clock.

[TheArchitect]

I definitely think Murderous Cut is playable. Decks with black, that want removal but don't particularly care about their GY might want 1-2 of them. I could see it going in stuff like grixis delver, deadguy, or esper. It seems better than path to exile or dismember the majority of the time.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/131/760/635457669060423701.png

[Dice_Box]

Arr delve. "Make it an ok card, then add at lest another 3 colourless to its mana cost." Great.

[Richard Cheese]

Arr delve. "Make it an ok card, then add at lest another 3 colourless to its mana cost." Great.

Take that, Counterbalance!!

[Barook]

Realistically, Murderous Cut probably isn't going to be online before T3 in most cases.

Otherwise, it seems like a decent card.

On a different topic:

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Channelfireball_Siege-Rhino_9-8-2014-copy.jpg

Probably way more relevant in Modern, but it seems like a solid midrange beater with integrated reach.

[Megadeus]

Not being able to kill a mom or deathrite on turn 1 is fairly huge. I just don't see this making the cut unfortunately

[ahg113]

Not being able to kill a mom or deathrite on turn 1 is fairly huge. I just don't see this making the cut unfortunately

I feel the same about the Dega charm. It does everything on color, extremely slow, and worse than individual alternatives.

If ever there was a card to push a non-blue-splashable card with an awesome effect, this would've been it. Blue co-opted Abrupt Decay in some builds, this Dega Charm could've been awesome like that. (Naya, Junk, Jund added to list as well)

Blah. Hip hip horay for allied fetches, and then snooze. But then I thought Lotleth Troll was gonna be good, so what do I know?

[Zllig]

I am really glad that spell pierce variant isn't power 3 or greater, that would be disgusting with delver. The card seems pretty alright though, i wont be surprised to get blown out by it at some point.

[morgan_coke]

Siege Rhino means you can Lightning Helix your opponent with GSZ for 4G. It's 4/5 stats also enable it to stand off Tarmogoyfs. I fully approve.

[Cire]

Temur Charm RUG
Choose one —
• Target creature you control gets +1/+1 until end of turn. That creature fights target creature you don't control.
• Counter target spell unless its controller pays 3.
• Creatures with power 3 or less can't block this turn.

Mardu Charm RBW
Choose one —
• Mardu Charm deals 4 damage to target creature.
• Put two 1/1 white Warrior creature tokens onto the battlefield. They gain first strike until end of turn.
• Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a noncreature, nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

On a related note - I would love for a 24 land 36 Charm deck to be playable . . . just because. :tongue:

Jeskai Charm URW
Instant (U)
Choose one -
* Put target creature on top of its owner's library.
* Jeskai Charm deals 4 damage to target opponent.
* Creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain lifelink until end of turn.

Once again - I know - I KNOW - it would not be a good deck. But I would love a Charm Deck.

Maybe 20 Lands, 4 DRS, 4 Tarmo, 4 Delver, 4 Force, 4 Brainstorm, 8 2 mana charms & 12 3 mana Charms. It'll be awful, but oh so good.

[MGB]

I wonder about the remarkably low power of this set. So far, there really seems to be nothing for us whatsoever, and this is very odd considering the multicolor-themed sets are typically ratcheted up in power because of the color requirements. But even the charms look pretty meh in this one. I wonder if wotc is making this weak as a calculation that reprinted fetchies will bolster sales. It seems like a sure thing there. I had been thinking that I would do things this way if I was making these decisions.

Sounds exactly like their business strategy here.

"As long as we print fetches, they'll buy these boxes up even if the rest of the pack is nothing but dried manure patties."

"And this way we get postpone actual creative work for future sets! Less work for everyone!"

[nedleeds]

As neat as that counterspell is, RUG is the only deck that runs both Tarmogoyf and Spell Pierce, and I think that the reliability of Spell Pierce beats out a conditional Force Spike with conditional hard counter.

God forbid somebody made a new deck.

Edit: and you're also wrong http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14556&iddeck=107560

[Megadeus]

Maybe Bant could use the new counter? They get Goyf/KOTR. Hell even Smiter turns this thing on

[iamajellydonut]

Maybe Bant could use the new counter? They get Goyf/KOTR. Hell even Smiter turns this thing on

The problem is that until that time, you're working with a poor Force Spike, and after you have to wonder if you actually need that hard counter.

[Barook]

Sounds exactly like their business strategy here.

"As long as we print fetches, they'll buy these boxes up even if the rest of the pack is nothing but dried manure patties."

"And this way we get postpone actual creative work for future sets! Less work for everyone!"
To be fair, despite it sucking for us, it's brilliant.

They can reprint a bunch of generic old high value cards and the set is still going to sell like hotcakes no matter what.

They already did that with the Theros block - they jammed in Thoughtseize in Theros as set seller last minute (just look at the art, that is somebody getting petrified, not getting thoughtseized) and they even admitted that they put the majority of interesting cards in JOU instead of BNG.

Considering their current focus on Limited and overcosted EDH/casual crap, I doubt we're going to see a decent set anytime soon. I wouldn't be suprised if the Fetches were a last-minute thing, either.

[iamajellydonut]

I wouldn't be suprised if the Fetches were a last-minute thing, either.

With flavor text and art like that, I should hope so.

[wcm8]

~Adamant Negation
U
Instant - Uncommon
Counter target non-creature spell unless its controller pays 1.
Ferocious - If you control a creature with power 4 or greater, counter that spell instead.

As another poster said, it's really too bad that it didn't say 3 or greater, as then we'd also be considering its application with TNN, Delver, Mongoose, etc.

Early game, paying the extra 1 is tough for a lot of decks to do, especially with how RUG operates with Stifle/Wasteland.

Instead of thinking of this card as competing for Spell Pierce slots, think of it as potentially being Spell Pierces #5-8. (More likely, Spell Pierce 5-6). In certain metagames, RUG likes to max out on Spell Pierce and this could be played instead of or in addition to Stifle. Envelop, Flusterstorm, and Dispel are good sometimes, but they aren't always perfect, nor do they answer planeswalkers, artifacts, or enchantments.

I can see the argument for REB/Pyroblast being better options as Spell Pierce 5-6. But consider the non-blue bombs that RUG has to contend with: Terminus, Sneak Attack, Reanimate, Natural Order, etc. Being a hard counter in tandem with an active 'Goyf is pretty powerful. There are so many games that RUG loses due to whittling the opponent down to single digits and then losing to a well-timed board wipe or combo piece.

If RUG really wanted another creature to help enable it, it could always consider going back to Werebear. (Only half-joking here -- given how TA is succeeding with heavier threat density, perhaps its time for RUG to consider also increasing its creature count).

It's definitely a card on my radar. Ultimately though it's not going to have a huge impact, because I think most decks would probably only use 1-2 copies.

[Aggro_zombies]

Realistically, Murderous Cut probably isn't going to be online before T3 in most cases.
Wizards wants unconditional removal to cost three mana in most cases, so this card fits that bill. In Limited, five mana for an unconditional kill spell is acceptable, and actually being able to cast it for less makes the card pretty damn good.


On a different topic:

http://227rsi2stdr53e3wto2skssd7xe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Channelfireball_Siege-Rhino_9-8-2014-copy.jpg

Probably way more relevant in Modern, but it seems like a solid midrange beater with integrated reach.
It amuses me that this card costs the same amount as Tarmogoyf plus a Lightning Helix because that's exactly what it is. Unfortunately, the fact that you have to pay for the bundle even if you only really care about one or the other of its components means it's much less exciting than having a Tarmogoyf while holding a Lightning Helix (I mean, on top of the fact that this card only Helixes the opponent).

It's kind of funny to me, actually. Jack Elgin posted years ago about how awful it was the Tarmogoyf invalidates tons of creatures in Constructed. At the time his examples were all-stars like Werebear, so it was hard for me to get worked up about it because honestly, Werebear was a card that was begging for obsolescence. But just so far we've had two cards previewed (the Rhino and the two-mana Cat Demon) where my response has been, "Man, this card is worse than Tarmogoyf in any format that can play either." And Tarmogoyf isn't even the gold standard for creatures anymore!

[Lord Seth]

Considering their current focus on Limited and overcosted EDH/casual crap, I doubt we're going to see a decent set anytime soon. I wouldn't be suprised if the Fetches were a last-minute thing, either.Mark Rosewater said that the fetchlands were one of the first things they decided to put into the set.

[iamajellydonut]

Mark Rosewater said that the fetchlands were one of the first things they decided to put into the set.

Then they really put a time into making them aesthetically unlikable.

[(nameless one)]

Adamant negation seems good in Merfolk.

Lords buffing each other. TNN + 1 lord is also good enough to turn it on.

[Valtrix]

Something that I believe shouldn't be overlooked about Siege Rhino is the trample. If you're in BGW colors you're likely playing green sun's zenith, and it seems very nice to have a tutorable* way to push through a true name nemesis (or mother of runes). The types of decks which would like this card are generally underpowered in my opinion, but the rhino seems like a reasonable threat even at 4 mana.

*there's always deathrite shaman, but hope, you know...

[Barook]

Something that I believe shouldn't be overlooked about Siege Rhino is the trample. If you're in BGW colors you're likely playing green sun's zenith, and it seems very nice to have a tutorable* way to push through a true name nemesis (or mother of runes). The types of decks which would like this card are generally underpowered in my opinion, but the rhino seems like a reasonable threat even at 4 mana.

*there's always deathrite shaman, but hope, you know...
It's probably good in Melira Pod in Modern with Gavony Township, Exalted triggers from Hiearchs or just plain flickering it with Resto.

[FTW]

Not being able to kill a mom or deathrite on turn 1 is fairly huge. I just don't see this making the cut unfortunately

Here everyone goes getting excited about spoilers when we have a functional equivalent in Ghastly Demise, except Demise can kill the turn 1 Mom if you fetch. Similar to this Delve card, once your GY size is about 4-5, it kills most relevant targetable creatures. The only real edge the Delve card has is it kills Griselbrand. But you're not going to rely on targeted instant removal to beat Show and Tell anyway...

[FTW]

The problem is that until that time, you're working with a poor Force Spike, and after you have to wonder if you actually need that hard counter.

Well, for one, the hard counter protects your 4+ power beater. Not bad synergy.

So in a Dreadnought-style tempo deck, in turns 1-2 this card counters combo and early development spells, and in future turns it protects your threat for 1 mana. Seems like a perfect fit for such a deck, not so good in RUG where only Goyf turns it on and where Goyf can easily be shrunk.

[Megadeus]

Meh. If I am playing a deck that wants a "1 mana" removal spell and I am maxed out on Bolt/STP, I think dismember is the next best option.

[FTW]

Meh. If I am playing a deck that wants a "1 mana" removal spell and I am maxed out on Bolt/STP, I think dismember is the next best option.

Not saying Demise should beat those top 2 removal spells out. Just that it seems to already do what the Delve spell does, only with perks (and no one is playing it). Decks without red or white do need better 1-mana removal, since you're not going to run a full set of Dismembers. Disfigure is really not that great yet people run it because there aren't better options.

[Megadeus]

This is simply one reason why all midrangey decks are in one of those colors. You would think black, the "king" or color for removal would have the premiere removal...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like the Rhino dude, perfect adition for Karador deck.

[Allcoin]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/d433fc9185d8ebaeafc48efaffdea9a2.jpg
Another set, another bad hydra in a mythic slot. Oh how r&d has fallen. I like that it is a morpher, but it is still awful.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/08/d433fc9185d8ebaeafc48efaffdea9a2.jpg
Another set, another bad hydra in a mythic slot. Oh how r&d has fallen. I like that it is a morpher, but it is still awful.

Seems pretty freaking amazing when you consider that those green devotion lists that will carry on in the next standard season without any real losses easily and regularly cast Genesis Hydra for x>7.

Get a 7/7 and when you kill it turns into 7 1/1s unless you have an Exile spell? Pretty good.

And with the morph you turn a 2/2 into a 5/5 that turns in to 5 1/1s for 5 seems like a good deal too.

Cards are not bad just because they are not legacy playable.

[iamajellydonut]

The joke is that we can't go a single set without getting a functionality identical hydra crammed into a mythic slot for no apparent reason other than "but hydras!".

[Darkenslight]

The joke is that we can't go a single set without getting a functionality identical hydra crammed into a mythic slot for no apparent reason other than "but hydras!".

Yep, I'd much rather see Mythic trees than Hydras at this point. The best recent Hydra is arguably Kalonian Hydra, and that's too expensive for Legacy. I'm more interested int he Abzan Battle-Priest, and that is too expensive for Legacy.

[Barook]

I'm more interested why it's a Snake Hydra. :eyebrow:

And it feels like the designers have to catch up on years without a green iconic fatty. That's why we get a Mythic Hydra every goddamn set.

[iamajellydonut]

And it feels like the designers have to catch up on years without a green iconic fatty. That's why we get a Mythic Hydra every goddamn set.

"Hey, Wizards, we think we found an iconi-"
"WANNA BUY A HYDRA?"
"No, Wizards, we don't want ano-"
"IT'S DIFFERENT FROM THE LAST ONE. WE PROMISE."
"Wizards, it's the same card."
"BUT THE LAST ONE DIDN'T COST X."
"Wizards, pl-"
"WE'LL EVEN GIVE YOU SNAKES."

[Sylphnir]

Well hydras are for green now what dragons were/are for red.
And even in a set were the story is mostly "NO DRAGONS!!" the red mythic somehow turned out to be a dragon.
I'd expect at least one mythic or rare hydra in every upcoming set from now on.

[Zombie]

lifelands, trilands, fetches. They're overloading bigtime on mana fixing. Fair enough for a tricolor block, I guess.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I was actually being quite serious [about Wasteland for $10 in 2010].
Well, maybe my memory really serves me that bad. I got my Wastes since Idk when, so I didn't really took care of the rising price. Shame, shame...



Then why is it just at 6-7 EUR while Goyf is at 125 EUR ?
Clearly, this list of mine is the new Best Aggro in Legacy:

4 Juzám Djinn
4 Serendib Efreet (SUM)
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Zodiac Dragon
1 Shukufuku Dragon
1 Chanpheng

plus some hydras...


What are the lifelands?

[iamajellydonut]

What are the lifelands?

They basically reprinted the Zendikar "Refuge" lands except with enemy colors as well. Which I'm fine with, but it makes me wonder why they were so adamantly opposed to printing full sets of duals in the most recent core sets.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They basically reprinted the Zendikar "Refuge" lands except with enemy colors as well. Which I'm fine with, but it makes me wonder why they were so adamantly opposed to printing full sets of duals in the most recent core sets.

That's some good news. I hope they're nice!

[Finn]

Meh. If I am playing a deck that wants a "1 mana" removal spell and I am maxed out on Bolt/STP, I think dismember is the next best option.

If we are evaluating Murderous Cut in Legacy, I think you are right about the Dismember comparison. There really is not much bigger than 5 that we can actually target these days. Grisel, I guess. You can whack a Craterhoof with the right timing. The upsides of Dismember are many. But my favorite is that life is a throwaway resource. Paying life is like charging a credit card. But if you win, you never have to pay it back.

[Kage]

My biggest problem with these new sets are not the low power level but rather that there are no interesting tweaks of new mechanics or cards that do a unique thing with a certain block mechanic.

We used to have cool effects like Astral Slide, Wild Research, Valakut, Burning Vengeance Heartless Summoning or Pyro Ascension, these 2 new blocks so far... nothing playable. Instead we get Cancel with Scry, 3 iconic one mana cards stuck together as a charm, Murder with delve, etc. etc. So boring.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

If we are evaluating Murderous Cut in Legacy, I think you are right about the Dismember comparison. There really is not much bigger than 5 that we can actually target these days. Grisel, I guess. You can whack a Craterhoof with the right timing. The upsides of Dismember are many. But my favorite is that life is a throwaway resource. Paying life is like charging a credit card. But if you win, you never have to pay it back.

Grixis Delver already plays Dark Confidants and Gitaxian Probes and Force of Will with many fetches and no real Lifegain so Life is not exactly throwaway when you add all up.

The problem with Dismember is that it hits cards this deck most often does not even care that much about (Goyf only buys time usually since he can be chumped by YP tokens) and does not help with cards this deck can't deal with except for multiple Bolts - Griselbrand, Elesh-Norn, Iona, Primeval Titan, Wurmcoil Engine can be annoying or game ending in case of Elesh-Norn.

That is why I would rather play 1 Murderous Cut than 1 Dismember.

[iamajellydonut]

That is why I would rather play 1 Murderous Cut than 1 Dismember.

Murderous Cut is playable. Dismember is playable. Diabolic Edict is playable. Snuff Out. Vendetta. Ghastly Demise. Smother. All of these are "playable". And bad. It honestly doesn't matter what you're shoring up that single heavy-hitting removal spot with. No matter what you choose, it will always have severe limitations.

[Barook]

My biggest problem with these new sets are not the low power level but rather that there are no interesting tweaks of new mechanics or cards that do a unique thing with a certain block mechanic.

We used to have cool effects like Astral Slide, Wild Research, Valakut, Burning Vengeance Heartless Summoning or Pyro Ascension, these 2 new blocks so far... nothing playable. Instead we get Cancel with Scry, 3 iconic one mana cards stuck together as a charm, Murder with delve, etc. etc. So boring.
The blatant recycling of old cards is what really pisses me off. They just took the RtR cluestones and tacked a mana on the tap and draw ability.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/butcherofthehorde.jpg

Seems decent, just not really Legacy-decent, despite being Bolt-proof and AD-immune.

[iamajellydonut]

The blatant recycling of old cards is what really pisses me of. They just took the RtR cluestones and tacked a mana ont he tap and draw ability.

This.

And I still don't fucking understand the reasoning for morph.

[Cire]

This.

And I still don't fucking understand the reasoning for morph.

The foolish and misquided hope that we can have netrunner level of mind-games in MTG combat and creature interaction?

[Barook]

And I still don't fucking understand the reasoning for morph.
Lame design?

All they do is taking away :1: from the natural casting cost to unmorph it and call it a day. We have several cases of this already:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/witnessoftheages.jpg

Limited fodder or not, this is incredibly lame.

[Darkenslight]

This.

And I still don't fucking understand the reasoning for morph.

Because LOOK A DISTRACTION! *Wizards runs away screaming*

[H]

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/butcherofthehorde.jpg

Seems decent, just not really Legacy-decent, despite being Bolt-proof and AD-immune.

I really want to play that guy and Lingering Souls together but I really can't see that in Legacy.

Maybe this can make Team Italia a better contender in Modern? It wasn't horrible before, I just found it had trouble closing out games.

[rufus]

It seems like deflecting palm could steal victory against Grisselbrand or Emrakul attacks. Though, I guess, there are better sideboard options in those colors.

[Scott]

It seems like deflecting palm could steal victory against Grisselbrand or Emrakul attacks. Though, I guess, there are better sideboard options in those colors.

I like it, and I hope it finds a place. If it does, it'll be in Boros Burn because it'll have to be a deck that's all about damage to the face. At the very least, it's better than Eye for an Eye :tongue:

[Barook]

It seems like deflecting palm could steal victory against Grisselbrand or Emrakul attacks. Though, I guess, there are better sideboard options in those colors.
I doubt you can resolve it against a Griselbrand.

Butcher of the Horde might be pretty good in Standard since he works extremely well with Rabblemaster.

[TsumiBand]

Would be neat to see if a RBW aggro deck like the Modern Burn deck would work with Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer and Butcher of the Horde. It's almost better to think of it as like a repeatable Goblin Grenade, right -- sac a guy, deal 5 to the face? What's really cool is you can sac two guys to regain life you might have tossed out the window during your attempt to burn the opponent out, so like... in an ideal world, you got your Pyromancer and some dorks, and a host of tokens (even one casting of Souls gives you like 3 tokens, plenty to toss out) and then you throw down the Butcher and sac the right number of tokens for your board position.

The vigilance ability is probably mostly a throwaway, better to have been first strike maybe. But haste + lifelink on a 5 power 4 drop? Yisss. It's like a weird Fireblast but pay creatures instead of lands. I dunno. I feel like it will show up on the fringes of things. Maybe moreso in Modern.

[joven]

Another set, another bad hydra in a mythic slot. Oh how r&d has fallen.

I'm actually glad that most mythics in Khans of Tarkir are underwhelming. So no must-haves that cost 30 EUR after two weeks.

[Scott]

I doubt you can resolve it against a Griselbrand.

It's very reasonable for a burn deck to have Sneak & Show at 7 or 8 or less life and outside Draw 7 range by the time Griselbrand hits the battlefield. And it's obviously great for Emrakul. In a deck without a blistering clock, there are better options though.

[Megadeus]

I would cry of happiness if it somehow brought zoo back #StillCantBeat1ManaWraths

[iamajellydonut]

I would cry of happiness if it somehow brought zoo back #StillCantBeat1ManaWraths

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

[Barook]

Would be neat to see if a RBW aggro deck like the Modern Burn deck would work with Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer and Butcher of the Horde. It's almost better to think of it as like a repeatable Goblin Grenade, right -- sac a guy, deal 5 to the face? What's really cool is you can sac two guys to regain life you might have tossed out the window during your attempt to burn the opponent out, so like... in an ideal world, you got your Pyromancer and some dorks, and a host of tokens (even one casting of Souls gives you like 3 tokens, plenty to toss out) and then you throw down the Butcher and sac the right number of tokens for your board position.

The vigilance ability is probably mostly a throwaway, better to have been first strike maybe. But haste + lifelink on a 5 power 4 drop? Yisss. It's like a weird Fireblast but pay creatures instead of lands. I dunno. I feel like it will show up on the fringes of things. Maybe moreso in Modern.
For what it's worth, he's also right in the Zombardment colors. Although 4 mana is alot to ask for that deck, even with DRS.

[Finn]

Would be neat to see if a RBW aggro deck like the Modern Burn deck would work with Lingering Souls, Young Pyromancer and Butcher of the Horde. It's almost better to think of it as like a repeatable Goblin Grenade, right -- sac a guy, deal 5 to the face? What's really cool is you can sac two guys to regain life you might have tossed out the window during your attempt to burn the opponent out, so like... in an ideal world, you got your Pyromancer and some dorks, and a host of tokens (even one casting of Souls gives you like 3 tokens, plenty to toss out) and then you throw down the Butcher and sac the right number of tokens for your board position.

The vigilance ability is probably mostly a throwaway, better to have been first strike maybe. But haste + lifelink on a 5 power 4 drop? Yisss. It's like a weird Fireblast but pay creatures instead of lands. I dunno. I feel like it will show up on the fringes of things. Maybe moreso in Modern.

Am I thinking about this correctly? You can't get double lifelink because it is no longer a trigger. If I am wrong, this card is a lot better.

[pfiremc13]

Am I thinking about this correctly? You can't get double lifelink because it is no longer a trigger. If I am wrong, this card is a lot better.

You are correct; lifelink no longer stacks.

[Erdvermampfa]

http://www.mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/hootingmandrills.jpg


This seems to be the most legacy-playable card in this set so far. It's potency depends on how much your deck uses the GY already (Shaman, Goyf, Stalker) but it can often be cast quite cheaply i guess and most importantly, it gets past TNN.

[Sentient6]

It also survives AD and Bolt and gets past CB/Top. Would be cool for RUG, but doesn't play very well with Mongoose.

[Aggro_zombies]

Lame design?

All they do is taking away :1: from the natural casting cost to unmorph it and call it a day. We have several cases of this already:

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/witnessoftheages.jpg

Limited fodder or not, this is incredibly lame.
If all morph cards were good, you'd be strongly incentivized to just kill a face down creature on sight before your opponent can (potentially) get value out of flipping it face up. That would defeat the purpose of morph - middling players especially would be much less likely to attempt to deduce what creatures you have face down if they can just shortcut them all to, "This will be bad for me somehow".

[Offler]

In my EDH deck morph card can mean:

Aphetto alchemist - combo
Voidmage prodigy - control
Willbender - redirection

The goal is to force the oponnent to destroy it. There is 1/3 chance that that he will hit the correct card, 1/3 chance of counterspell and 1/3 chance of redirection.

But when I compare Witness with Scornful egotist which has its own interactions (effects based on highest CMC), or with Zoetic Cavern its just... very very bad uncommon. It would not be better as a common, but according to its parameter it belongs there...

[lyracian]

This seems to be the most legacy-playable card in this set so far. It's potency depends on how much your deck uses the GY already (Shaman, Goyf, Stalker) but it can often be cast quite cheaply i guess and most importantly, it gets past TNN.
It is not quite Tombstalker but seems close. I like the Trample however main problem is TNN with Equip can hold it at bay. I wonder if Modern Zoo could make use of it? Between Fetches, Bloodrush and Bolts it gets a lot of cards in the yard quickly...

[Barook]

http://www.planetmtg.de/gfx/artikel/607028b97b7abc55bc42e85704abebc8_2.jpg


Jeskai Ascendancy :u::r::w:
Enchantment
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, creatures you control get +1/+1 until end of turn. Untap those creatures.
Whenever you cast a noncreature spell, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card.
That's a pretty interesting card. I wonder how one can abuse it best.

[Offler]

http://www.planetmtg.de/gfx/artikel/607028b97b7abc55bc42e85704abebc8_2.jpg


That's a pretty interesting card. I wonder how one can abuse it best.

Any creature with ability to untap a manasource / creature which is manasource, some instant/sorcery with buyback and appropriate mana cost.

Edit:
Gyre Sage or Viridian joiner, with Elvish fury.

Two green buybacks generate tokens, what is quite fun with this as well (Wurmcalling and Sprout swarm. But not elves so Elvish archdruid, Wirewood channeler nor Priest of titania will not work.

Rofellos, Llanowar emisary can be fun.

There was a guy with elvish based deck and with Karona, False god as EDH commander. Can be fun there...

[Megadeus]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

Oh I know it's totally horrible. I just want to see zoo again...

[rufus]

http://www.planetmtg.de/gfx/artikel/607028b97b7abc55bc42e85704abebc8_2.jpg

That's a pretty interesting card. I wonder how one can abuse it best.

There are some obvious synergies with Mesa Enchantress or Past in Flames.

[Vicar in a tutu]

This feels like a real card:

Treasure Cruise
7U
Sorcery
Delve

Draw 3 Cards

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/treasurecruise.html

[Zombie]

Playable card in that color.

Color me surprised.

[joven]

Disdainful Stroke
1U Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 4 or greater.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/disdainfulstroke.jpg

Will this make Modern a bit more like Legacy?

[Dice_Box]

In what way?

[marax]

There are quite a few archetypes in Modern that do not/do not play enough cards with a cmc of 4 or higher:
Burn, Affinity, BGx for example.

[Vicar in a tutu]

A shame it isn't a Zombie. The Raid-ability should have just cost :b:. Still a cool card.

Bloodsoaked Champion
B
Creature - Human Warrior
Bloodsoaked Champion can't block.
Raid - 1B: Return Bloodsoaked Champion from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate this ability only if you attacked with a creature this turn.
2/1

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/bloodsoakedwarrior.html

[Barook]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/62/193/635459383103375458.jpeg

I don't know where it could fit aside from Zombardment, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[TsumiBand]

I was just about to post about Bloodsoaked Champion. That's a neat little card. He and Tyramet will be besties like Larry and Balky.

Disdainful Stroke is never better than Negate, right? If the format supports it then it's great; if there's nothing > 4, who cares. I don't think Legacy does; I wonder if Modern does. I guess it tricks EDH players into thinking they can play counters in multiplayer, since the curve starts at like 5 in certain circles. I dunno.

[Emo]

http://www.mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/hootingmandrills.jpg


This seems to be the most legacy-playable card in this set so far. It's potency depends on how much your deck uses the GY already (Shaman, Goyf, Stalker) but it can often be cast quite cheaply i guess and most importantly, it gets past TNN.

I think this card could use some serious play-testing in a rug-type build. The fact that it requires only one forest in its cost is relevant and as stated earlier, it is pretty evasive in a format with 4 toughness, TRAMPLE, and a cmc of 6. With the right build, this can come down as early as turn 2 (i.e. turn one: probe, fetch, ponder, turn two: fetch, cantrip, apes with counter back up). Obviosuly this requires things like a full playset of probes but I am excited and probably overly optimistic to see if this could be another beater in the format.

[Gheizen64]

Screw Baboons, the Delve Ancestral is playable guys. Color me surprised since it's a blue card. But in combo decks this is a LOT like ancestral.

[PirateKing]

But in combo decks this is a LOT like ancestral.

It'll sting a bit to flip to AN but I'm still excited.

[Cire]

This feels like a real card:

Treasure Cruise
7U
Sorcery
Delve

Draw 3 Cards

http://mythicspoiler.com/ktk/cards/treasurecruise.html

As a singleton isn't this just

U
Sorcery
Threshold- Draw 3

?

Why wouldn't decks with blue play at least one of these?

[trollking21]

It'll sting a bit to flip to AN but I'm still excited.

Perhaps but in a deck like sneak and show it doesn't appear to have a draw back. Play show and tell it gets forced, sneak attack gets dazed. Play this try again.

I'm betting this card sees play in a lot of decks. But as like a 2 of because they stack poorly.

[rufus]

It'll sting a bit to flip to AN but I'm still excited.

Just play spring tide instead.

[TsumiBand]

I could be misevaluating Treasure Cruise, but Delve is such a greedy mechanic that I cannot imagine any but the most desperate, non-graveyard dependent combo decks running 4 of them. Everyone else would rather maybe play 2, right? Assuming you even cast both of them for the full Delve discount that's 1/4 of your library.

That's not to say there aren't plenty of times when one would want to cast it for 1U or maybe even 2U, so theoretically it's anywhere between 4 - 7 cards per casting. It seems like one of those things you can't just cram in to all Blue decks though. Past in Flames decks will probably hate the shit out of this card.

That said, there's always the "it pitches to Force" contingency, it just requires that everything happen in the right order.

It's not a bad card, I don't think. I think it's not quite as potent as it looks though.

EDIT:

Just play spring tide instead.

Ohshi I forgot about Spring Tide, which is dumb because I love it. It might just replace any maindeck Flash of Insights or whatever-the-hell that deck would run today if it were a thing. You could almost justify an early casting of Ideas Unbound, knowing that this guy was around to redeem the card loss. Interesting.

Wait, is Spring Tide even worth a lick?

[Zombie]

As a corner case you can also use it to selectively nerf Tarmogoyfs or deny opposing Deathrites their food.

[AngryTroll]

As a one-of I could imagine the Delve Ancestral Recall will have the same problem as Temporal Mastery. On paper most blue decks should benefit from a Time Walk or Ancestral Recall in the midgame, but both are nearly dead in opening hands.

I think it's well designed in that it's interesting and might make it into some decks but can't be an automatic four-of in every blue deck.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Ghostfire Blade makes me want to make a bad Standard Affinity deck...

4 Ornithopter
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Ghostfire Blade
4 Phrexian Revoker

[(nameless one)]

Goblinslide and Quiet Contemplation seems to have potential in Stompy decks

[rufus]

As a one-of I could imagine the Delve Ancestral Recall will have the same problem as Temporal Mastery. On paper most blue decks should benefit from a Time Walk or Ancestral Recall in the midgame, but both are nearly dead in opening hands...

Although it doesn't have immediate potential, it seems like carrying a Treasure Cruise into the midgame would work in way that Termporal Mastry will not.


Wait, is Spring Tide even worth a lick?
I guess delve ancestral doesn't play well with Time Spiral, which isn't so great.

[iamajellydonut]

So, they have their chance to print a fairly costed black draw spell... And where does it go? Fucking retarded.

[Barook]

The problem with Temporal Mastery is that it needs a decent board position to be worth it. Otherwise, it's just a glorified Explore.

I don't think any deck would run it as a 4-off due to Delve's cannibalistic nature, but I can see certain blue decks run at least 1-2 copies, especially if they have little reliance on the GY. 3 cards for :1::u: or :2::u: is still a decent deal.

There's also Brainstorm to delay it until you can cast it or get rid of it with shuffle effects. And it also pitches to force.

The bigger problem I see with this card is the ubiquitous presence of DRS.

[TsumiBand]

Although it doesn't have immediate potential, it seems like carrying a Treasure Cruise into the midgame would work in way that Termporal Mastry will not.


I guess delve ancestral doesn't play well with Time Spiral, which isn't so great.

It doesn't have to not play well; imagine a situation where you're managing to exile primarily lands to Treasure Cruise. But yeah, I question whether it's actually better to draw 3 than cast Time Spiral with impunity.


So, they have their chance to print a fairly costed black draw spell... And where does it go? Fucking retarded.

Well fuck, I hadn't thought of it that way. Now I'm :(

[Cire]

Final Charm

Abzan Charm WBG
Instant - Uncommon
Choose one -

Exile target creature with power 3 or greater.
You draw two cards and you lose 2 life.
Distribute two +1/+1 counters among one or two target creatures.

[iamajellydonut]

This just in:
Charms cost three mana.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Goblinslide and Quiet Contemplation seems to have potential in Stompy decks

Goblin Assault is better than Goblinslide and it doesn't see play...

[Barook]

Goblin Assault is better than Goblinslide and it doesn't see play...
And Goblin Rabblemaster is better than both of them.

[Aggro_zombies]

I question whether Treasure Cruise is better than Compulsive Research. The former is basically impossible to cast without delving, but if you exile four cards to it in the midgame (leaving, say, just cards you need to pump Tarmogoyf), you have Concentrate, and if you exile five cards, you have something barely better than Research.

It's also in the uncomfortable spot of being comparable to Ancestral Visions, as they're both draw-threes that are not very good if you're not setting them up somehow. Visions is feasibly castable if you're willing to wait a bit, though, whereas Cruise will basically never be cast for retail in a real game of Legacy ever.

Finally, it's worth remembering that the two easiest ways to fill the graveyard in this format are fetchlands and cantrips, and those two often go hand-in-hand. I question whether you really need a draw three in your deck once you've added enough cantrips to reliably have 5+ expendable cards in the graveyard in the midgame.

[Gheizen64]

Card is a 2-of, maybe singleton. Differently from mastery it's not useless if you draw it in opening hand, and don't suffer from the "win more" problem mastery has. This is a draw-3, and even if you draw it in your opening hand, you'll be able to use it T4-5 anyway, it's not like it is a completely dead card. Past T3, i think the card is just amazing in a lot of decks, even shittiest things like counterburn aggro or something :laugh:

[Darkenslight]

There are some obvious synergies with Mesa Enchantress or Past in Flames.

Much better with the obscure cards View from Above and Bloom Tender, but that's a lot of weird mana requirements.

EDIT:

Treasure Cruise seems bonkers in LED Dredge as a singleton.

[Esper3k]

I was just about to post about Bloodsoaked Champion. That's a neat little card. He and Tyramet will be besties like Larry and Balky.

Disdainful Stroke is never better than Negate, right? If the format supports it then it's great; if there's nothing > 4, who cares. I don't think Legacy does; I wonder if Modern does. I guess it tricks EDH players into thinking they can play counters in multiplayer, since the curve starts at like 5 in certain circles. I dunno.

Countering the occasional Craterhoof or non-Emrakul Eldrazi / NicFit guys is about all I could think of off the top of my head. I guess it's ok vs MUD as well.

[Kage]

Much better with the obscure cards View from Above and Bloom Tender, but that's a lot of weird mana requirements.

EDIT:

Treasure Cruise seems bonkers in LED Dredge as a singleton.

They play Breakthrough and there's even Brainstorm if you want that effect. This will see no play in Dredge.

[Meekrab]

As a singleton isn't this just

U
Sorcery
Threshold- Draw 3

?

Why wouldn't decks with blue play at least one of these?
Is this really a common? :o

The two flex draw slots in my Pauper RUG Tron just got filled.

[Lemnear]

They play Breakthrough and there's even Brainstorm if you want that effect. This will see no play in Dredge.

Burning Wish Storm

[Megadeus]

They play Breakthrough and there's even Brainstorm if you want that effect. This will see no play in Dredge.

They also have an uncounterable version on a land already

[Barook]

There's a bunch of new, spoiled cards (not confirmed yet, but they all sound very reasonable, so I doubt they're fake). What catched my eye was this:


Dig Through Time :6::u::u:
Instant
Delve
Look at the top seven cards of your library. Put two of them into your hand and the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Despite the UU requirement, this seems better than Treasure Cruise due to bigger card selection and being instant speed.

Edit: This one seems interesting as well:


Kin-tree Invocation :b::g:
Sorcery
Put an X/X black and green Spirit Warrior creature token onto the battlefield, where X is the greatest toughness among creatures you control.

Are there any applications aside from Goyf and maybe KotR?

[wcm8]

Are there any applications aside from Goyf and maybe KotR?

Agreed regarding that draw 2 spell. Instant speed and the selection makes it pretty powerful, almost like a pseudo-tutor.

The kin folk card is not really playable. Requiring a creature to turn it on is worse than just playing another creature in that slot.

[Megadeus]

Dig through time maybe being enough as a 1 of or something in like an esper deck. In combo you'd rather have Lim Duls vault. The BG token thing is sweet. I'd play it in something and I'm sure it would be bad

[pochy]

Are there any applications aside from Goyf and maybe KotR?

referring to the bg token maker, it can probably be considered in a junk treefolk shell for modern maybe... A bunch of ''wall'' that turns to useful with doran and gave to that sorcery the possiility of making 5/5+ at cc2 from turn 3+.
But other than this, i can't see any real interesting application (and even not sure if this could be considered interesting).

edit: or maybe in standard with something like the new white wall, for making a 7/7 cc2 on turn 3...
Dazzling Ramparts 1W
Creature - Wall
Defender
1W, T: Tap target creature.
0/7

just some ideas, but the card do not really seem very useful

[iamajellydonut]

Despite the UU requirement, this seems better than Treasure Cruise due to bigger card selection and being instant speed.

Whenever they want, they can feel free to print a fairly costed black draw spell via delve. Aaany time now...

[Offler]

As a singleton isn't this just

U
Sorcery
Threshold- Draw 3

?

Why wouldn't decks with blue play at least one of these?

Threshold would be fine, but delve means need to remove cards from grave. That can be painful for the combo sometimes. Anyway can be used quite well as 3 cards for 1 mana.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, Delve harms Nimble, Goyf, DRS, Snapcaster Tombstalker and other cards played in blue. Making a card just have threash is not the greatest issue in the world and in fact is not that big a cost. Making you cannibalise your own resources is. Also, in Standard control, draw three for one off threash would be nuts for control. Like, almost to the point where I would think about playing in a standard where that option was available.

[iamajellydonut]

I think the point was that RWU and Miracles and other like blue decks don't give a fuck.

[Dice_Box]

I just finished Miracles... Did not think of that. This could be a fun time after all.

Well well, Void Snare was not the first thing spoiled and it did something, everyone that said this set was not going to offer anything, looks like you just needed to wait. Granted, this is not the bees knees, but it is a dam side better than nothing. (Still no DRS or AD though.)

[lyracian]

I think the point was that RWU and Miracles and other like blue decks don't give a fuck.
They might actually care as they can tactically reduce Gofy or stop DRS having food by delving there yard; however I think the point you were trying to make was there are other blue decks that are not bothered by eating there own yard? Instant speed certainly makes this look interesting as a draw card. While I know Fact or Fiction does not really make the cut any more in Legacy this seems slightly more powerful (2 of 7 cards vs 1-4 of 5 cards) although harder to cast multiple copies. It could also help Show and Tell decks or Mono-Blue Tron in Modern.

[HSCK]

The other Delve card I think has a better chance of making a splash.

Dig Through Time 6UU

Instant

Delve

Look at the top 7 of your library, put two in hand, rest at the bottom of your library.

Impulse hasn't made the cut in a long time, this is an interesting variant as you go +1 and provides quite a bit of card selection.

[iamajellydonut]

The other Delve card I think has a better chance of making a splash.

They'll probably both see a bit of play, but if they do, they'll definitely take up the same slot. It'll come down to what each deck needs more. Whether there's something you're objectively digging for our whether you're just looking for card count. Sneak 'n' Show or Miracles. RWU or Reanimator.


They might actually care as they can tactically reduce Gofy or stop DRS having food by delving there yard; however I think the point you were trying to make was there are other blue decks that are not bothered by eating there own yard?

Really?

[Lord Seth]

I just finished Miracles... Did not think of that. This could be a fun time after all.

Well well, Void Snare was not the first thing spoiled and it did something, everyone that said this set was not going to offer anything, looks like you just needed to wait. Granted, this is not the bees knees, but it is a dam side better than nothing. (Still no DRS or AD though.)Well, people were awfully dismissive of DRS at first...

[Finn]

Green/Black Dreadnought with Kin Tree Invocation. (Is that really the name of the card? That does not sound right.)

Probably weaksauce. But the tokens can feed each other which previous incarnations of Dreadnought could not.

[sjmcc13]

Green/Black Dreadnought with Kin Tree Invocation. (Is that really the name of the card? That does not sound right.)

Probably weaksauce. But the tokens can feed each other which previous incarnations of Dreadnought could not.
So BUG StifleNaught...

[Megadeus]

Green/Black Dreadnought with Kin Tree Invocation. (Is that really the name of the card? That does not sound right.)

Probably weaksauce. But the tokens can feed each other which previous incarnations of Dreadnought could not.

If it were instant and you could do it in response to the sacrifice trigger, I'd totally do it.

[fgsl13]

There used to be a BUG StifleNought, using Varolz, the Scar-Striped (http://magiccards.info/dgm/en/112.html), as you can see here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11068&iddeck=80872).

[AngryTroll]

There used to be a BUG StifleNought, using Varolz, the Scar-Striped (http://magiccards.info/dgm/en/112.html), as you can see here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=11068&iddeck=80872).

I must be missing something in that list, because it's clearly better to have 4 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts and 2 Death's Shadows than 2 Dreadnoughts and 4 Shadows in a deck running 4 Stifles.

(There are a couple of shocklands, but no Gitaxian Probes, Street Wraiths, or Dismembers to lower the life total for Death's Shadow.)

[MaximumC]

Whenever they want, they can feel free to print a fairly costed black draw spell via delve. Aaany time now...

Skeletal Scrying is the card you are looking for. Even though it doesn't really have Delve :)

[majikal]

Skeletal Scrying is the card you are looking for. Even though it doesn't really have Delve :)
You do still have to pay mana for X, you know.

[lyracian]

Really?
That is what I think; however you response does not make your original comment any clearer.

[SevenInTheQueue]

So far, Hooting Mandrills has the most potential in the entire set. There are a couple of other interesting cards, but they feel a bit too clunkymagicchristmasland.

[Philipp2293]

I guess at some point I will be playing a deck with Intuitions, Misthollow Griffins and Dig Through Time.

[Darkenslight]

I guess at some point I will be playing a deck with Intuitions, Misthollow Griffins and Dig Through Time.

Oh, cool. FCG (Food Chain Griffins) just got better.

[Megadeus]

So far, Hooting Mandrills has the most potential in the entire set. There are a couple of other interesting cards, but they feel a bit too clunkymagicchristmasland.

I'm thinking of it in Zoo maybe? Tramples through a TNN. Like a 2-3 of maybe? Tough to get it before turn 3 or 4 probably unless you are running something wonky with like Gitaxian Probes or something to just fill the yard quickly.

[Barook]

I'm thinking of it in Zoo maybe? Tramples through a TNN. Like a 2-3 of maybe? Tough to get it before turn 3 or 4 probably unless you are running something wonky with like Gitaxian Probes or something to just fill the yard quickly.
Zoo? Good luck running into Terminus. Considering it requires some commitment, I wouldn't want to run it in a deck that can't really protect it.

[rufus]

I'm thinking of it in Zoo maybe? Tramples through a TNN. Like a 2-3 of maybe? Tough to get it before turn 3 or 4 probably unless you are running something wonky with like Gitaxian Probes or something to just fill the yard quickly.

Maybe Devastating Dreams or Life from the Loam?

[Aggro_zombies]

Mandrills does not seem Legacy-playable. It's not hard to get Tarmogoyf to a 3/4 off of your own graveyard, so Mandrills is only +1 power for more effort. Plus, if your opponent is attacking your graveyard (with DRS, RiP, etc.), Mandrills gets significantly worse since you have much larger or more powerful options at three mana and at four, five, or retail the card is not anywhere close to being worth playing.

Also, Zoo can't quickly build up a graveyard the way a deck with fetches and cantrips can. A turn four Mandrills for two or three mana is a lot less exciting when you realize you could have had a Tarmogoyf in play for two whole turns by that point.

[SevenInTheQueue]

Let's look at some of the pros and khans of Mandrills.

Pros:

- Gets around some of the most popular removal in the format.
- 4/4 body is nothing to scoff at.
- Trample lets it walk over a TNN, Lingering Souls and other bumps in the road.
- Has potential to shrink opposing Tarmogoyfs, and run DRS dry.

Cons:

- Still dies to STP and Terminus
- Counterbalance can still hit (womp womp)
- Worse in multiples
- Doesn't get along with friendly Goyfs


I think the biggest obstacle for Mandrills is people actually giving it a chance. It might require some changes to preexisting archetypes, that seem incorrect on the surface.

[trollking21]

- Counterbalance can still hit (womp womp)

The only similar card counterbalance doesn't hit is tomb stalker, and if counterbalance + top is on field this is more likely to resolve then just about everything else in your deck.

[Megadeus]

Let's look at some of the pros and khans of Mandrills.

Pros:

- Gets around some of the most popular removal in the format.
- 4/4 body is nothing to scoff at.
- Trample lets it walk over a TNN, Lingering Souls and other bumps in the road.
- Has potential to shrink opposing Tarmogoyfs, and run DRS dry.

Cons:

- Still dies to STP and Terminus
- Counterbalance can still hit (womp womp)
- Worse in multiples
- Doesn't get along with friendly Goyfs


I think the biggest obstacle for Mandrills is people actually giving it a chance. It might require some changes to preexisting archetypes, that seem incorrect on the surface.

I'm thinking in maybe like a Zoo with Gitaxian Probe list? With Hierarch + Qasali beats, this thing can get real big trampling on through shit. I'm not saying that it is even remotely a good card, but whenever anything at all that could possibly help Zoo gets printed, I get a little bit excited in the pants.

[TsumiBand]

Monastery Swiftspear :r:

Creature - Human Monk

Haste, Prowess

1/2

===

Dear Raging Goblin:

I've met someone else.

Your ex-hetero-lifemate,
Stick

===

I know that KilnFiend.dec is not really A Real Thing, but with the advent of all these Prowess cards I have to wonder if it is going to start to be Almost A Thing. This guy for example; a 1/2 for R?! The hell is that toughness doing there without a drawback! But anyway, in a burn-heavy deck with the right number* of aggressive dorks running around that pump when you cast burny things, it starts to look like something that one could get away with. Coupla Kiln Fiends, coupla this guy, maaaybe some Blue dork since that deck probably plays Gixatian Probe and suddenly you're turn 3ing 26 damages off of two Bolts and a Fireblast. Rawr!

* obviously the more dudes in such a deck the less burn can be in there so it'd be a delicate balance, but this guy is better than, like, Blistercoil Weird in terms of just being durdly and aggro

[Barook]

Monastery Swiftspear :r:

Creature - Human Monk

Haste, Prowess

1/2
In magical Christmas Land, you could use it for a T1 kill:

Taiga, Monastery Swiftspear, Lotus Petal, Invigorate, Invigorate, sac Petal, play Berserk/Assault Strobe/Tainted Strike, swing.

Tainted Strike probably doesn't fit due to its color requirements, but I guess at some point there's going to be a critical mass that makes a R/G(/x) deck possible. Of course it won't be great, especially with UG Infect as a better option, but hey, brewing is fun.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Monastery Swiftspear :r:
Creature - Human Monk
Haste, Prowess
1/2
Well, Goblin Lackey just got worse... again :frown:

[TsumiBand]

Actually, as I think about it, the card stands to compete with Goblin Guide more than any other Red 1-drop.

Consider that you'd probably be spending at least :r: to remove the opponent's blocker on your turn 2 anyway; if not, you have the option to dome them after attackers/before damage and come over for 5. If they do have a blocker, you're also given the option of simply attacking into it, as it would potentially have to survive combat with a 3/4. If they have the StP or similar removal, the only thing you've done is forced them to use it whereas a Goblin Guide would arguably have drawn them land and they'd have let it through - which sounds good in a burn deck, except that such a deck is really not keen on being outdrawn, much less giving the opponent card advantage on every attack. There are a lot of intangibles one could weigh when trying to decide if it's better or worse to keep a creature on-deck in the face of removal, but ultimately Goblin Guide is going to net your opponent cards, and after it does they will simply handle it and move on.

I don't think it totally destroys Goblin Guide, but I do think that it is worth a look. Pumping it to 2 power means doing something you were going to do anyway (casting burn spells), and you no longer risk give the opponent cards every time you attack.

[rufus]

...
Tainted Strike probably doesn't fit due to its color requirements, but I guess at some point there's going to be a critical mass that makes a R/G(/x) deck possible. Of course it won't be great, especially with UG Infect as a better option, but hey, brewing is fun.

I think that Swiftspear is more of a sligh card, and that you'd want stuff that can get to 5 or 10 power more easily for the Assault Strobe/Berserk/Tainted Strike approach.

[Barook]

Full spoiler is out (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ktk-cig-en#)

Currently looking through the rest of the cards.

Master the Way could be a kill condition for Omnitell, but I don't think it's better than Release the Ants since it can't be wished for and needs to be run in the MD. Meh.

Set Adrift is an interesting bounce spell, but it's another Delve spell and we already have a few potential spells fight over that.

Overall a pretty meh set with tons of overcosted crap.

Howl of the Horde or maybe some of the Delve spells are going to see play.

[ReAnimator]

Become Immense (what a terrible name)
5G
Instant
Delve
Target guy gets +6/+6

Could be a one or two of for Infect.
Will definitely make the cut for Modern Infect.

[TsumiBand]

Ride Down is a ridiculous "counter target chump blocker" effect. Do I understand it correctly? Once the creature is destroyed there should no longer be a need to assign it any combat damage, so the full bore of the damage should get there?




702.19c If an attacking creature with trample is blocked, but there are no creatures blocking it when damage is assigned, all its damage is assigned to the player or planeswalker it’s attacking.


EDIT -- to clarify, I'm not calling it playable outside of limited/little kid Magic, but it is a funny effect and will probably end stupid stalls or possibly force people to block with "too many" guys once the cat's out of the bag.

[PirateKing]

Ride Down is a ridiculous "counter target chump blocker" effect. Do I understand it correctly? Once the creature is destroyed there should no longer be a need to assign it any combat damage, so the full bore of the damage should get there?

Yeah I saw that as well, got my interest for a few goofy non-Legacy decks I run. Blocker dies, you need to assign 0 damage before trample becomes applicable, they take it all to the face. In line with Master Warcraft as RW totally fucking with combat math.

[Meekrab]

I'm disturbed by the completely arbitrary separation of 'Warriors' and 'Soldiers'.

[rufus]

I'm disturbed by the completely arbitrary separation of 'Warriors' and 'Soldiers'.

Is that anything like the differences between Shamans and Wizards?

[Aggro_zombies]

Is that anything like the differences between Shamans and Wizards?
It's all flavor differences. I mean, if they wanted, they could just give every creature the creature type "Dude" and it would work.

Weird that Warriors are in white now given that they're traditionally Jund-colored, though.

(Also, the difference between Warriors and Soldiers is that the latter are professional, trained, and organized whereas the former just charge into combat and hit things. Shamans versus Wizards is sort of the same deal.)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Full spoiler is out (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ktk-cig-en#)

Currently looking through the rest of the cards...
Me too. I like the uncommon lands. They're really nice.

[ESG]

I'm liking Ugin's Nexus as a way to attack Vault-Key and maybe Time Walk + Snapcaster Mage in Vintage. It's not great, but at least they threw Vintage a bone.

Altar of the Brood has potential to be a fringe combo someday with the right token generator.

Design-wise, I could really do without the stamps in the text box. Unnecessary clutter. Lots of these cards are full of text, so clutter is more noticeable and objectionable.

[Dice_Box]

The basics look Beautiful.