Khans of Tarkir:

[Karhumies]

Altar of the Brood has potential to be a fringe combo someday

Helm of Awakening or Etherium Sculptor + 2x Sensei's Divining Top. But then again, that's infinite storm as well.

More likely, we get Commander mill decks with this card because it mills all the opponents instead of 1 only.

[Karhumies]

I think that Swiftspear is more of a sligh card, and that you'd want stuff that can get to 5 or 10 power more easily for the Assault Strobe/Berserk/Tainted Strike approach.

More of a Modern format card, TBH. Modern burn and sligh builds look quite strong currently, IMO. I suppose that some variants using 4 Goblin Guide + 4 Swiftspear in the same deck to apply the pressure might arise.

[Infinitium]

Helm of Awakening or Etherium Sculptor + 2x Sensei's Divining Top. But then again, that's infinite storm as well.

More likely, we get Commander mill decks with this card because it mills all the opponents instead of 1 only.

Artificer's Intuition
Locket of Yesterdays
Sensei's Divining Top
Altar of the Brood

So they finally printed enough cards to make an actual combo win that can be assembled with artifier's intuition (at the low, low cost of 3UUUUUU and 4 artifact cards to pitch). Well I'll be damned.

[Dreg]

Am I the only one who finds this set plain boring?

I'm not saying terrible or unplayable. Just boring. I am a little casual inside and i get excited pretty easily for jank card, i spend my night dreaming "what if XYZ was playable, it would be so awesome" and i find something exciting in every jank set.

But Khans gave me no excitement whatsoever. What interest can you find in a set where mechanics are recycled, uninspired or just tedious to use? This set has a lot of mutilated timings, vanilla creatures, overcosted dudes with morph and cards that seem designed just to fill the gaps and publish the entire stuff. There is nothing even remotely exciting. It is all "old card rewritten to force a new mechanic in the textbox" and nothing more.

[Humphrey]

Am I the only one who finds this set plain boring?

I'm not saying terrible or unplayable. Just boring. I am a little casual inside and i get excited pretty easily for jank card, i spend my night dreaming "what if XYZ was playable, it would be so awesome" and i find something exciting in every jank set.

But Khans gave me no excitement whatsoever. What interest can you find in a set where mechanics are recycled, uninspired or just tedious to use? This set has a lot of mutilated timings, vanilla creatures, overcosted dudes with morph and cards that seem designed just to fill the gaps and publish the entire stuff. There is nothing even remotely exciting. It is all "old card rewritten to force a new mechanic in the textbox" and nothing more.

I actually like the old-school feel of this set.

[Zombie]

Something about recent MTG art just bothers me. It was present in Innistrad, it's in Khans. I think it's the way they photoshop the lighting, but dunno. Things just look unnaturally clean.

[Que]

Something about recent MTG art just bothers me. It was present in Innistrad, it's in Khans. I think it's the way they photoshop the lighting, but dunno. Things just look unnaturally clean.

Maybe because we get yu gi oh goblins now?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/TheIzzet/635461198948618431.png
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/TheIzzet/635455100388364922.png

Or maybe because were getting Avatar the Last Airbender ?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/TheIzzet/635461199528296598.png
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/TheIzzet/635455098764763362.png

that being said I do like some of the art in this set. I like Magali Villeneuve

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Full spoiler is out (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ktk-cig-en#)

Overall a pretty meh set with tons of overcosted crap.


^This. Very underwhelmed...

[GoblinSettler]

Something about recent MTG art just bothers me. It was present in Innistrad, it's in Khans. I think it's the way they photoshop the lighting, but dunno. Things just look unnaturally clean.

To me, it looks like increased resolution of the source artwork. Maybe that started earlier than Innistrad, though.

[Zombie]

To me, it looks like increased resolution of the source artwork. Maybe that started earlier than Innistrad, though.

It's not just that, though. To me, good art often just suggests in a kind of impressionistic way. Not full "abstract blob of color" style, but we don't need to see every pore of a person's skin either, right? That, or hi-res CGI just starts looking weird. Like rock looking like plastic instead of fake rock (CoD, Skyrim, Planetside, Ninja Gaiden even had plastic trees, the examples are endless) or stuff just looking strangely "clean". All because they try to apply all kinds of weird stuff that just isn't actually needed. Our brains have their own fill functions that they use anyway, filling in every detail is just unnecessary.

[Lord Seth]

Something about recent MTG art just bothers me. It was present in Innistrad, it's in Khans. I think it's the way they photoshop the lighting, but dunno. Things just look unnaturally clean.Huh, I thought Innistrad had great art; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben might be my favorite art on any card. Thought Geist of Saint Traft looked amazing as well.

[Zombie]

Huh, I thought Innistrad had great art; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben might be my favorite art on any card. Thought Geist of Saint Traft looked amazing as well.

Not every piece is bad, obviously. But something about cards like Moorland Haunt just feels off to me.

[Dice_Box]

The flooded strand feels like it was pulled from a cartoon, but the basics, dam. How do they fuck up the expensive cards, but make me want to buy basics?

[Darkenslight]

The flooded strand feels like it was pulled from a cartoon, but the basics, dam. How do they fuck up the expensive cards, but make me want to buy basics?

Welcome to Wizards for Dummies!

[Barook]

The flooded strand feels like it was pulled from a cartoon, but the basics, dam. How do they fuck up the expensive cards, but make me want to buy basics?
It's also questionable where the hell the Flooded Strand is. It's basically a flooded meadow within some mountains.

They could use a polished turd as art and people would still gobble it up.

Even looks more like a strand than the crap we got:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ktk/8arg43u984398yf/en_fg237t67ee.png

And yes, the basic arts is beatiful. I'm probably replacing some of my basics with the new ones.

[Darkenslight]

It's also questionable where the hell the Flooded Strand is. It's basically a flooded meadow within some mountains.

They could use a polished turd as art and people would still gobble it up.

Even looks more like a strand than the crap we got:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/ktk/8arg43u984398yf/en_fg237t67ee.png

And yes, the basic arts is beatiful. I'm probably replacing some of my basics with the new ones.

I'd happily replace my non-ZEN/UNH/UNG ones with them. Aside from that, though...

[Lord Seth]

The flooded strand feels like it was pulled from a cartoon, but the basics, dam. How do they fuck up the expensive cards, but make me want to buy basics?Maybe they figure that people will be buying the fetchlands no matter what art they give them, but cool art is the only way to get someone excited about a basic land?

Though I didn't think the original flooded strand art was that hot either.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Maybe they figure that people will be buying the fetchlands no matter what art they give them, but cool art is the only way to get someone excited about a basic land?

Though I didn't think the original flooded strand art was that hot either.

I like the original art of ONS fetches, except maybe for delta, it's... too much polluted. Also, it's nice how we discuss art from other sets in KTK thread. :)
I once again must applaud Wizards for the wedge lands, and of course: yes, the basics are amazing. 10/10 would buy.

[Griselpuff]

Carsten thinks treasure cruise is insane. I respect him a lot and I'm goig to test it out. If he's right Drs gets even more stupid and misdirection gets better too

[iamajellydonut]

Carsten thinks treasure cruise is insane. I respect him a lot and I'm goig to test it out. If he's right Drs gets even more stupid and misdirection gets better too

Deathrite Shaman becomes more important in terms of delaying Delve, but it doesn't get better. And Misdirection can't misdirect things that don't target.

[Griselpuff]

Yup, I'm wrong about misdirection. But delaying delve is huge

[TsumiBand]

If the card is worth a damn I suspect that controlling DRS isn't going to be more than a speed-bump; it's like saying Gorilla Shaman wrecks Affinity because it keeps them off of Thoughtcast.

Even if that's a bad example, I would submit that there are a range of casting costs that draw 3 is more than playable within, and DRS affecting that cost by 1-2 is going to matter very little. 2U for 3 cards, unconditionally, is not exactly a bad deal. You could start pissing and moaning around 3U but that's still better than Concentrate; at any rate, a dedicated deck isn't going to worry over the one dude eating 1 graveyard card per turn.

[PirateKing]

I'd also be interested to see if this forces the DRS players to start eating faster, thus keeping them off early ramp. Going to have to be proactively thinning the graveyard, since you can't respond to paying cost.

[iamajellydonut]

I'd also be interested to see if this forces the DRS players to start eating faster, thus keeping them off early ramp. Going to have to be proactively thinning the graveyard, since you can't respond to paying cost.

It shouldn't impact critical play at all. As nice as it is to delay some huge Delve Juggernaut, the best strategy to counter them is just to... counter them, or to develop a better board. Playing the Liliana will still be better. The Wasteland. The Library. The Delver. The Bob.

[PirateKing]

It shouldn't impact critical play at all. As nice as it is to delay some huge Delve Juggernaut, the best strategy to counter them is just to... counter them, or to develop a better board. Playing the Liliana will still be better. The Wasteland. The Library. The Delver. The Bob.

I concur it isn't the strongest line of play, which makes me all the more curious to see how many players will over commit to killing their opponent's graveyard.

[rufus]

Carsten thinks treasure cruise is insane. ...

Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time seem like they could be strong in some kind of 'pitch long' or Thirst for Knowledge deck. I wouldn't be too surprised to see either of them restricted in vintage.

[phonics]

I wish they explored the delve mechanic more or even at all, seems like a real missed opportunity to have cool cards. Having cards have different effects based on what cards were removed, having bonuses/drawbacks for using delve ect. I certainly hope that the delve cards in this set are just an introduction and that the rest of the block will have cards that use the mechanic in a more interesting way.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

now that I think about I see why Treasure Cruise is insane. Its a treshhold Ancestral Recall without the misdirection weakness.
I think is is worth a try in Control Decks with fetchlands and Cantripps which can fill the graveyard fast enough.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[TsumiBand]

FWIW, regarding comments @ the 'superfluous' Warrior type in Mardu --

there's actually a fair number of cards within that particular tribe that have.... levels of playability.


Gatekeeper of Malakair
Ash Zealot
Brighthearth Banneret
Vampire Lacerator
Goblin Bushwhacker
Keldon Marauders
TYMARET, THE MURDER KING
Krenko, Mob Boss


and probably a bunch of other guys, but there's like 260 guys in Gatherer so I dunno.

But yeah, it's not a *completely* homeless tribe, just one with less notoriety than others. DAT GATEKEEPER THO.

[shrubs]

So WotC must be saving their new planeswalker/legend, the silver-haired, purple-eyed Khanlessi, Queen of the Dargons, and her three legendary dragons (black, white and... green?) as the big seller in third set?

[Barook]

So WotC must be saving their new planeswalker/legend, the silver-haired, purple-eyed Khanlessi, Queen of the Dargons, and her three legendary dragons (black, white and... green?) as the big seller in third set?
What are you talking about?

They might print Ugin at some point in the block, though.

[Aggro_zombies]

What are you talking about?

They might print Ugin at some point in the block, though.
Ugin is probably in the next set so we can see who he is when we go back to save him.

The second set is probably going to be like DGM in the sense that it's going to be the set where 90% of the block's actual plot takes place. My guess is that they're going to pick the model of, "Show how the world is now," "Plot Set," and "Show what the world has become" so both big sets will be light on any sort of story. If the Fall 2015 block is Return to Zendikar they might finally reveal the identity of The Lithomancer in the spring set so we have the full, reunited band to battle the Eldrazi.

[from Cairo]

So WotC must be saving their new planeswalker/legend, the silver-haired, purple-eyed Khanlessi, Queen of the Dargons, and her three legendary dragons (black, white and... green?) as the big seller in third set?
What are you talking about?

Presumably some extension of the criticism that MTG moved to a Vampire/Gothic block at the height of the Twilight franchise's success and is currently exploring Tarkir:


Tarkir is a world embattled with ambitious warlords and powerful clans that wage eternal war for supremacy of their plane, a conflict that spans over a thousand years. Tarkir is also the home plane of Sarkhan Vol. It was previously inhabited by dragons, all of whom were killed before Sarkhan's period of servitude. The clans each worship one aspect of the extinct dragons.

at perhaps the height of the Game of Thrones franchise's success.

It's a game that's explored a bunch of disjointed stuff. Theros' exploration of Greek Mythology, Kamigawa's Japanese/Samurai culture, Urza's/Mirroden's Phyrexia stuff, the Weatherlight stories or whatever the hell was happening in Zendikar.

I think the criticism is a bit loose - it is a fantasy game, it's goal is to continue to grow, I don't feel too bad if a block focuses in on a current hype mythology or storyline similar to something else in popular culture if the cards and gameplay remain enjoyable.

[shrubs]

criticism that MTG moved to a Vampire/Gothic block at the height of the Twilight franchise's success and is currently exploring Tarkir:

Bingo. Mongolian dragons seems just a little too coincidental. It's any business' job to cash in as much as possible, so what do I know? I still dislike Twilightistrad vehemently, but at least there were some cool/good cards that came out of it.

Anyway, I find it curious that they did two historically themed blocks back to back, Greco-Roman and Mongolian/Avatar, um, East Asian, you'd think it would be spread around some. I suppose there are only so many artifact and 'return to' blocks they can do, har har.


If the Fall 2015 block is Return to Zendikar

Really? Between the rehashing of sets and the upswing in awful card names (Become Immense?), you have to wonder how long the creative aspect of Magic will last. Not being doom and gloom here, WotC will adapt to the situation as long as there is money to be made, but they may have to rethink their creative strategy at some point.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Carsten thinks treasure cruise is insane.

I think he is right but he is goind way too far.

I think dig through time is better than Treasure Cruise even if it is 1 Blue more expensive but it is instant and it can draw you into Force of Will + Blue Card easily. Taking the best 2 of 7 and being instant is better than a Sorcery that is 1 cheaper and gets you the top 3 cards.

I also don't think you can jam 4 in your deck unless you specifically built a deck around filling your graveyard and become suspectible to GY hate.

However UR decks with Delver and Young Pyromancer already are competetive and can quickly fill the graveyard while executing their normal gameplan. Jamming 2 of these Delve spells in that deck should make it better.

[pfiremc13]

I think he is right but he is goind way too far.

I think dig through time is better than Treasure Cruise even if it is 1 Blue more expensive but it is instant and it can draw you into Force of Will + Blue Card easily. Taking the best 2 of 7 and being instant is better than a Sorcery that is 1 cheaper and gets you the top 3 cards.

I also don't think you can jam 4 in your deck unless you specifically built a deck around filling your graveyard and become suspectible to GY hate.

However UR decks with Delver and Young Pyromancer already are competetive and can quickly fill the graveyard while executing their normal gameplan. Jamming 2 of these Delve spells in that deck should make it better.

However, Carsten is the one who has done testing. I would tend to believe him more.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I would also think that cards like Faithless Looting or Careful Study might be pretty valid inclusions in UR-PyroDelver when running Dig or Treasure Cruise. Could be better than a Ponder which in itself is a better card but does not synergize with Treasure Cruise.

Carsten himself said in his tests that the 2nd Treasure Cruise was often clunky and stuck in his hand a couple turns. So I think 4 is definitely not the right number to play unless you know that resolving 1 is a win always.

I think 2 is the right number, maybe 3, but like I said above I would love to see a deck that can abuse them as engines without folding to graveyard hate - MADNESS!!

[MaximumC]

The more I think about it, the more I believe this author is correct. These cards are powerful and potentially dangerous. Here are a few key reasons why:

(1) They require nothing more than that you are playing Magic to become powerful.

This is why Tarmagoyf, while seemingly conditional, was actually amazing. When Goyf was first spoiled, everyone complained that he would only work in a dredge shell that could maximize him quickly. As it turns out, Goyf is perfectly happy to just go in any deck because playing the game normally will power him up in almost every match.

These draw cards are the same. A legacy deck is going to have two to three cards in its yard very quickly between fetches, cantrips, and early removal or threats. That means that Treasure Cruise, for example, will typically cost 5U or 4U around the time it becomes relevant. That’s a more expensive concentrate, isn’t it? Sure, but look how quickly the cost is dropping to more reasonable levels. By turns four or five, when you probably are running out cards in hand and need to reload, I would be shocked if any deck with a reasonably low curve has not put at least five cards in your yard. By the time you get down to 2U, this Treasure Cruise becomes the best draw spell in Legacy. More than that is cake.

And, did you need to pull any shenanigans to fuel this card? No. You just needed to play the game, and needed time to pass. Incidentally, this is why I think these cards have more legs in Legacy than Vintage. Though Vintage has more interaction per turn, typically Legacy games have more turns and therefore more time to power up your Delve cards.

(2) They are powerful in multiples.

This is the biggest error I see in people analyzing these cards. People also complained about the Legendary status of Jace TMS, and he sees plenty of play as a four-of. Why would you do that when the second one is dead in your hand? Because if you hit the first one, you’re probably winning already and you can afford the dead card.

These cards are exactly the same. Once your opponent has gone on a Cruise once, the game is over if you started at parity. Three cards is HUGE. Ask anyone in Vintage whether they win a game when someone resolves an Ancestral Recall in the first few turns. (Hint: No.)

Moreover, when you’ve drawn a bunch of extra cards, you will be off to the races to refuel your yard for the next Cruise. Heck, if you draw just a pair of removal spells or cantrips, you’ve already set up the next Cruise for 5U in midgame, putting you two or three more spells away from value town again. And let’s not forget that as your mana base increases as the game goes long, the need to Delve to cast the spell gets less and less relevant.

(3) Playing yard hate just for these cards leaves your opponent horribly vulnerable.

Until TNN, Goyf was probably the most universal threat in Legacy. Yet, people did not universally run main deck yard hate to deal with him. Why? Because every card you run that turns off Goyf potentially leaves you naked to another threat in the same deck. Say you’re playing against RWU Delver, and you know they’re running four Treasure Cruise. Do you actually side in your yard hate? Do you want to be playing Rest in Peace as they flip the Delver and start beating for 3 each turn? That’s a terrible place to put yourself.

Indeed, assuming that the Delve player really has no other need for the graveyard, if you put in a lot of yard hate, you’re giving them the same card advantage they were going to get from going on a Treasure Cruise in the first place.

This is less true if your opponent’s yard hate consists of stuff like Joten Grunt, Samurai of the Pale Curtain or the Junk Khan, but those cards see less play because they do less work against the decks you really need to cripple with yard hate.

[ESG]

Great points, MaximumC. The first of the Delve spells will be powered mostly by your graveyard. The second and third will be powered partly by graveyard and partly by lands. Fetchlands and cantrips are already heavily played, and both juice up Delve.

[bruizar]

Visions of Beyond requires 20 cards and people have actually managed to set that up. Same for Tombstalker and Nimble Mongoose. The delve mechanic looks like Phyrexian mana to me. I think a lot of these cards will be playable, including the black ones. I wouldn't be surprised to see some deck using either empty the pits or dead drop.

I'd also like to point out the interaction of Burning Wish with Treasure Cruise. This will find its way into storm decks I believe.

[rufus]

...
I'd also like to point out the interaction of Burning Wish with Treasure Cruise. This will find its way into storm decks I believe.

I may be missing something, but that doesn't seem particularly compelling to me.

Something like Howl of the Horde -> Treasure Cruise seems pretty potent, but it's expensive and conditional.

[Lemnear]

Visions of Beyond requires 20 cards and people have actually managed to set that up. Same for Tombstalker and Nimble Mongoose. The delve mechanic looks like Phyrexian mana to me. I think a lot of these cards will be playable, including the black ones. I wouldn't be surprised to see some deck using either empty the pits or dead drop.

I'd also like to point out the interaction of Burning Wish with Treasure Cruise. This will find its way into storm decks I believe.

It has already. Works pretty well as a Wish target in TES for longer and grindier games especially with the fact in mind that storm traditionally never had access to life independent, unsymmetric, cheap cardadvantage

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd guess that delve cards won't be exactly good in any deck with Cabal Ritual and/or PiF, but then again it really opens new lines of play and makes discard mus better.

[Lemnear]

I'd guess that delve cards won't be exactly good in any deck with Cabal Ritual and/or PiF, but then again it really opens new lines of play and makes discard mus better.

Correct. That's why ANT has no use for that card imo, but if you rarely give a fuck about your graveyard anyway, like it's brother in mind TES, while willingly feast on the discard/cantrips/Fetches you burned to slice through your opponents defense, this is something to consider a slot in your Wishboard. It even adresses issues of being hit by discard to some extend.

[FoolofaTook]

The barrier to entry for Legacy playable cards is very high. The delve cards in this set aren't like Tarmogoyf. They're not amorphously powerful cards that are going to win the game if they resolve and stick around.

Treasure Cruise and Hooting Mandrill are probably the best of them and both of those spells are going to kick you in the teeth hard when you play them and they're countered. I just don't see a treasure hoard for Legacy in that group of cards. Some of them will see play in lists specifically designed to exploit them. I don't think any of them are just going to slide into lists as too powerful not to play.

Maybe a 1-of Treasure Cruise in blue lists, maybe even 2 if the list dumps a lot of stuff in the GY each turn.

The cool thing about them though is that they will make budget Legacy more accessible for people. Mono-blue lists will now have ways to compete with the tri-color lists because they won't need to play fetches, just a lot of cantrips to fill the yard. They don't have access to most of the power cards that are barring Treasure Cruise and the like from entry anyway so they'll get full value from a cheap addition in the color.

[Lord Seth]

Visions of Beyond requires 20 cards and people have actually managed to set that up.Where have people managed to set up Visions of Beyond outside of mill decks?

[FoolofaTook]

Where have people managed to set up Visions of Beyond outside of mill decks?

Same thing for Ancestral Visions, which doesn't see play outside of Cascade lists. WotC are not idiots. They're not going to print a draw 3 that doesn't have a significant drawback. The drawbacks for Treasure Cruise are that it isn't good in multiples except in very long control lists, it works against some of the cards other blue lists like to play and it is very possibly a dead card in the hand if your GY gets shutoff somehow or the opponent counters the first one. It's also sorcery speed and the idea that you'll just tapout for 4 mana and delve 4 cards if the first one is countered runs against everything a long blue control list wants to do anyway. Tapping out in the midgame is like death for that kind of list.

[Lemnear]

where have people managed to set up visions of beyond outside of mill decks?

edh

Edit:

The barrier to entry for Legacy playable cards is very high. The delve cards in this set aren't like Tarmogoyf. They're not amorphously powerful cards that are going to win the game if they resolve and stick around.

Treasure Cruise and Hooting Mandrill are probably the best of them and both of those spells are going to kick you in the teeth hard when you play them and they're countered. I just don't see a treasure hoard for Legacy in that group of cards. Some of them will see play in lists specifically designed to exploit them. I don't think any of them are just going to slide into lists as too powerful not to play.

Maybe a 1-of Treasure Cruise in blue lists, maybe even 2 if the list dumps a lot of stuff in the GY each turn.

The cool thing about them though is that they will make budget Legacy more accessible for people. Mono-blue lists will now have ways to compete with the tri-color lists because they won't need to play fetches, just a lot of cantrips to fill the yard. They don't have access to most of the power cards that are barring Treasure Cruise and the like from entry anyway so they'll get full value from a cheap addition in the color.

You don't think it's debatable if a 2cc creature which can be removed by common 1cc removal is more powerful than a 3 card swing, considering that unlike Tarmogoyf, the delve spells don't actually care about the selection of cards in your graveyard? Why would you kick yourself if the teeth if you remove your graveyard for them, a source blue decks rarely care for anyways unless they play Snapcaster, Mongeese or Tarmogoyf? You don't even need dedicated design to run them. Most legacy decks with cantrips and fetchlands feed the first Treasure Cruise by turn 4, the second is deadly and you can pitch the rest to FoW. I've heared most of the "copy 2-4 are dead" as jace was spoilered and people hinted at his legendary rule

[Megadeus]

The barrier to entry for Legacy playable cards is very high. The delve cards in this set aren't like Tarmogoyf. They're not amorphously powerful cards that are going to win the game if they resolve and stick around.

Treasure Cruise and Hooting Mandrill are probably the best of them and both of those spells are going to kick you in the teeth hard when you play them and they're countered. I just don't see a treasure hoard for Legacy in that group of cards. Some of them will see play in lists specifically designed to exploit them. I don't think any of them are just going to slide into lists as too powerful not to play.

Maybe a 1-of Treasure Cruise in blue lists, maybe even 2 if the list dumps a lot of stuff in the GY each turn.

The cool thing about them though is that they will make budget Legacy more accessible for people. Mono-blue lists will now have ways to compete with the tri-color lists because they won't need to play fetches, just a lot of cantrips to fill the yard. They don't have access to most of the power cards that are barring Treasure Cruise and the like from entry anyway so they'll get full value from a cheap addition in the color.
Umm... If you are running mono blue without fetches and you plan to play brainstorm and a few of these delve cards... Well let me know how that works out for you.

[T-101]

The more I think about it, the more I believe this author is correct. These cards are powerful and potentially dangerous. Here are a few key reasons why:

(1) They require nothing more than that you are playing Magic to become powerful.

This is why Tarmagoyf, while seemingly conditional, was actually amazing. When Goyf was first spoiled, everyone complained that he would only work in a dredge shell that could maximize him quickly. As it turns out, Goyf is perfectly happy to just go in any deck because playing the game normally will power him up in almost every match.

These draw cards are the same. A legacy deck is going to have two to three cards in its yard very quickly between fetches, cantrips, and early removal or threats. That means that Treasure Cruise, for example, will typically cost 5U or 4U around the time it becomes relevant. That’s a more expensive concentrate, isn’t it? Sure, but look how quickly the cost is dropping to more reasonable levels. By turns four or five, when you probably are running out cards in hand and need to reload, I would be shocked if any deck with a reasonably low curve has not put at least five cards in your yard. By the time you get down to 2U, this Treasure Cruise becomes the best draw spell in Legacy. More than that is cake.

And, did you need to pull any shenanigans to fuel this card? No. You just needed to play the game, and needed time to pass. Incidentally, this is why I think these cards have more legs in Legacy than Vintage. Though Vintage has more interaction per turn, typically Legacy games have more turns and therefore more time to power up your Delve cards.

(2) They are powerful in multiples.

This is the biggest error I see in people analyzing these cards. People also complained about the Legendary status of Jace TMS, and he sees plenty of play as a four-of. Why would you do that when the second one is dead in your hand? Because if you hit the first one, you’re probably winning already and you can afford the dead card.

These cards are exactly the same. Once your opponent has gone on a Cruise once, the game is over if you started at parity. Three cards is HUGE. Ask anyone in Vintage whether they win a game when someone resolves an Ancestral Recall in the first few turns. (Hint: No.)

Moreover, when you’ve drawn a bunch of extra cards, you will be off to the races to refuel your yard for the next Cruise. Heck, if you draw just a pair of removal spells or cantrips, you’ve already set up the next Cruise for 5U in midgame, putting you two or three more spells away from value town again. And let’s not forget that as your mana base increases as the game goes long, the need to Delve to cast the spell gets less and less relevant.

(3) Playing yard hate just for these cards leaves your opponent horribly vulnerable.

Until TNN, Goyf was probably the most universal threat in Legacy. Yet, people did not universally run main deck yard hate to deal with him. Why? Because every card you run that turns off Goyf potentially leaves you naked to another threat in the same deck. Say you’re playing against RWU Delver, and you know they’re running four Treasure Cruise. Do you actually side in your yard hate? Do you want to be playing Rest in Peace as they flip the Delver and start beating for 3 each turn? That’s a terrible place to put yourself.

Indeed, assuming that the Delve player really has no other need for the graveyard, if you put in a lot of yard hate, you’re giving them the same card advantage they were going to get from going on a Treasure Cruise in the first place.

This is less true if your opponent’s yard hate consists of stuff like Joten Grunt, Samurai of the Pale Curtain or the Junk Khan, but those cards see less play because they do less work against the decks you really need to cripple with yard hate.

That's funny. I've seen countless Ancestral Recall/Ancestral Vision resolutions across the table, and still won the game.

People do run maindeck GY hate.

I just... there's so much misinformation here.

[HSCK]

That eats up the whole graveyard, that's an interesting meta you're in. One mana for 3 cards can be beaten, but the person resolving the draw spell with minimal resource investment is probably going to be ahead, same when they do it again. The amount of times you'll come from behind to beat that advantage are much lower than the amount of time some one is going to win because they resolved a couple copies.

[FoolofaTook]

edh

Edit:


You don't think it's debatable if a 2cc creature which can be removed by common 1cc removal is more powerful than a 3 card swing, considering that unlike Tarmogoyf, the delve spells don't actually care about the selection of cards in your graveyard? Why would you kick yourself if the teeth if you remove your graveyard for them, a source blue decks rarely care for anyways unless they play Snapcaster, Mongeese or Tarmogoyf? You don't even need dedicated design to run them. Most legacy decks with cantrips and fetchlands feed the first Treasure Cruise by turn 4, the second is deadly and you can pitch the rest to FoW. I've heared most of the "copy 2-4 are dead" as jace was spoilered and people hinted at his legendary rule

You kick yourself in the teeth if you are running it as more than a singleton because you're not going to cast the next one particularly quickly. On Jace, tell me how many lists run more than 1 of him in Legacy? In Standard 4 Jace was the rule because if you resolved a Jace you won the game about 90% of the time.

Again, I don't doubt that Treasure Cruise will see a lot of testing and it may well settle in as a 1 or 2-of refill card but it is going to have to push a very good card out of the lists to do that. That's the barrier to entry at this point. We've run out of Opts and Predicts and Sleight of Hands and Wild Mongels and Werebears and Spiritmongers and Gigapedes and the like at this point in Legacy. Every card in an optimized Legacy list is already at a very high power level. Exceeding that level is hard to do and conditional cards that do not effect the board or the opponent have an even higher hurdle to clear.

On Goyf: if you are in topdeck mode with the opponent drawing a Goyf will win for you a lot of the time. Is that true for Treasure Cruise, even assuming that it's your first Treasure Cruise?

[HSCK]

Testing with the card has shown it to be highly unconditional actually, burning through 10-14 cards is par for the course for a lot of the U based decks already which means you're drawing 3 for U two times without so much as a second thought. I'm not sure what you're testing has shown though.

[Dreg]

On Goyf: if you are in topdeck mode with the opponent drawing a Goyf will win for you a lot of the time. Is that true for Treasure Cruise, even assuming that it's your first Treasure Cruise?

If i'm in topdeck mode and i happen to draw a random card that reads "Draw 3", I'll probably giggle like a kid before christmas.

[FoolofaTook]

Testing with the card has shown it to be highly unconditional actually, burning through 10-14 cards is par for the course for a lot of the U based decks already which means you're drawing 3 for U two times without so much as a second thought. I'm not sure what you're testing has shown though.

Are you saying that you regularly burn through 10-14 cards by turn 5? Or that you do this 50% of the time? Or that you do this a third of the time?

I've played a lot of Mongeese in my time and I expect to have Threshold by turn 4 at the outside, although it does happen by turn 3 fairly often. I doubt that I have had as many as 14 cards in my graveyard by the end of the game in most matches I've played with this type of tempo list. This despite using the usual number of cantrips (8 to 12 depending on era) and putting counters, disruption and removal in the graveyard at a steady pace. Generally speaking I don't want to tap out on turn 3 or 4 with this type of list although there are some exceptions to the rule. The advantage of playing the list is that it can do what it needs to do and still leave 2 mana open to counter or respond to Daze and the like.

You say that the card is unconditional and yet my experience with threshold lists is that it will be very conditional, particularly after I resolve the first one, and that the opponent will have reasons to mess with my graveyard anyway which will make it even more so.

It could be that WotC goofed (again) and provided blue with an amazing card drawer. I'm guessing that it's more likely that "draw 3" is blinding everybody to the fact that the drawbacks are significant and the effect on play will be less than think as a result of that.

I do think it's going to be a great card to have against certain archetypes, like Suicide, and that it will be a great card in a few limited lists the same way that Ancestral Visions is now.

[FoolofaTook]

If i'm in topdeck mode and i happen to draw a random card that reads "Draw 3" I will probably giggle like a kid before christmas.

If the opponent is not in top deck mode you're going to have trouble resolving the spell. If they are in top deck mode alongside you would you really rather draw that card than a 5/6 beater that they have 2 turns to manage or the game is over?

[Dreg]

If the opponent is not in top deck mode you're going to have trouble resolving the spell. If they are in top deck mode alongside you would you really rather draw that card than a 5/6 beater that they have 2 turns to manage or the game is over?

Do you realize that you are crafting a makeshift situation just to win the argument?

[TheArchitect]

After testing dig through time as a 3of in esper Stoneblade for a brief ~12 games, the card does indeed seem really good. I don't think Id want 4 but definitely 2 or 3. The dissynergy with snap, rip and souls was never relevant in my small sample. And "super ponder" was still good even when it cost 4 mana. Being an instant is a huge upside. Some games it found force+blue card at instant speed. Some games it found snap and jace to stabilize and turn the game around. One game I even stabilized at 2 by delving in response to a drs activation.

[Lemnear]

You kick yourself in the teeth if you are running it as more than a singleton because you're not going to cast the next one particularly quickly. On Jace, tell me how many lists run more than 1 of him in Legacy? In Standard 4 Jace was the rule because if you resolved a Jace you won the game about 90% of the time.

Again, I don't doubt that Treasure Cruise will see a lot of testing and it may well settle in as a 1 or 2-of refill card but it is going to have to push a very good card out of the lists to do that. That's the barrier to entry at this point. We've run out of Opts and Predicts and Sleight of Hands and Wild Mongels and Werebears and Spiritmongers and Gigapedes and the like at this point in Legacy. Every card in an optimized Legacy list is already at a very high power level. Exceeding that level is hard to do and conditional cards that do not effect the board or the opponent have an even higher hurdle to clear.

On Goyf: if you are in topdeck mode with the opponent drawing a Goyf will win for you a lot of the time. Is that true for Treasure Cruise, even assuming that it's your first Treasure Cruise?

Well, every fucking Miracles list (which is a DtB as you might have missed too) do run 3+ Jaces. According to missing this overall obvious fact, if you at least once checked some Top8 in the last couple of years, while talking about Opts and Slieght of Hand in an era of Gitaxian Probe and Ponder, I wonder where you have been during the last couple of years of Legacy development since Tarmogyf was the cream of the crop?

[Richard Cheese]

If the opponent is not in top deck mode you're going to have trouble resolving the spell. If they are in top deck mode alongside you would you really rather draw that card than a 5/6 beater that they have 2 turns to manage or the game is over?

Wait...if the card after Treasure Cruise is Goyf, wouldn't you want the Cruise so you can have Goyf + 2 more cards?

[pfiremc13]

Treasure cruise is super good.

People have said that the second copy is dead, but that's not even close to true because the first one draws you into more cards that fill your yard and more land drops to cast it with.

Tapping out in the midgame is irrelevant, you don't need to tap out in the midgame for it.

Of course it's not as good of a topdeck as tarmogoyf. That is irrelevant. It's still a really good topdeck.

The card creates a stupidly powerful advantage for a stupidly low cost.

What's more important than all those arguments, though, is testing. You can't argue with someone who has tested something if you haven't. Period.

[Lemnear]

Wait...if the card after Treasure Cruise is Goyf, wouldn't you want the Cruise so you can have Goyf + 2 more cards?

Well you would have to rely on your opponents graveyard to power your goyf. Make it a Delver and you've won the argument :)

[FoolofaTook]

Well, every fucking Miracles list (which is a DtB as you might have missed too) do run 3+ Jaces. According to missing this overall obvious fact, if you at least once checked some Top8 in the last couple of years, while talking about Opts and Slieght of Hand in an era of Gitaxian Probe and Ponder, I wonder where you have been during the last couple of years of Legacy development since Tarmogyf was the cream of the crop?

One list runs multiple Jaces. Is that what you expected when the card was spoiled? Another couple of lists run 2 Jaces as a possibility,

I'm not arguing that Treasure Cruise isn't going to get run. I just don't think it is a power card that is going to get run in multiples in most lists that are blue.

As to the other thing, I don't think Treasure Cruise is a better card than Ponder or Gitaxian Probe in the lists that run those spells. That's my point. The days when there were weak cards to take out of a list, optional cards that were there to kind of glue the thing together but not particularly powerful are gone. Every card in an optimized list is about as good as you can get at what it does. Treasure Cruise has to be better than those cards to make the cut because it is also more conditional than those cards.

[Megadeus]

Jace, up until TNNs printing was played a lot as a 3 of in many decks. The meta shift has been what has pushed jace down a bit. It's much more creature oriented now which is another reason that I think Liliana is actually the best walker in legacy atm.

[HSCK]

Are you saying that you regularly burn through 10-14 cards by turn 5? Or that you do this 50% of the time? Or that you do this a third of the time?

I've played a lot of Mongeese in my time and I expect to have Threshold by turn 4 at the outside, although it does happen by turn 3 fairly often. I doubt that I have had as many as 14 cards in my graveyard by the end of the game in most matches I've played with this type of tempo list. This despite using the usual number of cantrips (8 to 12 depending on era) and putting counters, disruption and removal in the graveyard at a steady pace. Generally speaking I don't want to tap out on turn 3 or 4 with this type of list although there are some exceptions to the rule. The advantage of playing the list is that it can do what it needs to do and still leave 2 mana open to counter or respond to Daze and the like.

You say that the card is unconditional and yet my experience with threshold lists is that it will be very conditional, particularly after I resolve the first one, and that the opponent will have reasons to mess with my graveyard anyway which will make it even more so.

It could be that WotC goofed (again) and provided blue with an amazing card drawer. I'm guessing that it's more likely that "draw 3" is blinding everybody to the fact that the drawbacks are significant and the effect on play will be less than think as a result of that.

I do think it's going to be a great card to have against certain archetypes, like Suicide, and that it will be a great card in a few limited lists the same way that Ancestral Visions is now.

So are you saying you haven't actually tested the card but are still leveling lots of play situations as criticisms? That seems less than useful.

[Lemnear]

One list runs multiple Jaces. Is that what you expected when the card was spoiled? Another couple of lists run 2 Jaces as a possibility,

I'm not arguing that Treasure Cruise isn't going to get run. I just don't think it is a power card that is going to get run in multiples in most lists that are blue.

As to the other thing, I don't think Treasure Cruise is a better card than Ponder or Gitaxian Probe in the lists that run those spells. That's my point. The days when there were weak cards to take out of a list, optional cards that were there to kind of glue the thing together but not particularly powerful are gone. Every card in an optimized list is about as good as you can get at what it does. Treasure Cruise has to be better than those cards to make the cut because it is also more conditional than those cards.

We had Jace as a staple 2+ times in every CounterTop, BUG Control or Blade list in the last couple of years which is imo hard to ignore, despite you claiming it is a fringe 1-off at best popping up here and there. Even the printing of TNN and the shift to Liliana for the sake of battling the Meerfolk if you are already in black (BUG Aggro-control-Shells) cannot undo that fact.

The point is that the additional copies of Jace, Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time can be pitched to FoW or shuffled away with Brainstorm. It reflectes about the same clunkiness as the Miracle spells if stuck in your opener and we know from experience that having 4-6 clunky, conditional spells is no big deal in the age of Supreme card selection and hyper-efficient threats which barely occupy more than 1/5 of a deck these days, leaving you with more than 40 slots to fill with lands, cantrips and disruption, which all feed Delve! I can imagine that the density of actual threats may be about to drop once more if people can come up with a core and concept which simply draws like 6 cards per game more than their opponents. Just food for thoughts

[bruizar]

If anything, I expect Deathrite Shaman to get an even more important role in trying to keep blue decks at bay. Blue decks may want to create a strategy to ensure Deathrite Shaman doesn't spoil the day as it does for manaless dredge. Pitching to FoW and discarding to Liliana of the Veil are two options. On a second thought, you may want to use Treasure Cruise to remove the pressure from Liliana of the Veil's +1.

Empty the Pits has double X in its cost and is an instant. It's fairly close to Empty the Warrens so I think it's definitely (fringe) playable although not as a replacement to Empty the Warrens. The power level is there. Also, check the similarities with Entreat the Angels. This card has the EOT 'Entreat' built in, giving you the opportunity to alpha strike the next turn. Basically, you need 8 cards in your graveyard to hit parity with a X=2 miracle entreat. That's very doable. For an x=3 miracle entreat, you need a graveyard of 12, but you'll pay 1 mana less. With a bigger graveyard, you're going to have better and better value. It also synergizes well since you're probably running thought seize, hymn to tourach, liliana of the veil or rituals which you can turn into zombies..

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Khans_of_Tarkir/_Empty_the_Pits.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Time_Spiral/Empty_the_Warrens.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Avacyn_Restored/Entreat_the_Angels_TMP.jpg

[Lemnear]

If anything, I expect Deathrite Shaman to get an even more important role in trying to keep blue decks at bay. Blue decks may want to create a strategy to ensure Deathrite Shaman doesn't spoil the day as it does for manaless dredge. Pitching to FoW and discarding to Liliana of the Veil are two options. On a second thought, you may want to use Treasure Cruise to remove the pressure from Liliana of the Veil's +1.

Empty the Pits has double X in its cost and is an instant. It's fairly close to Empty the Warrens so I think it's definitely (fringe) playable although not as a replacement to Empty the Warrens. The power level is there. Also, check the similarities with Entreat the Angels. This card has the EOT 'Entreat' built in, giving you the opportunity to alpha strike the next turn. Basically, you need 8 cards in your graveyard to hit parity with a X=2 miracle entreat. That's very doable. For an x=3 miracle entreat, you need a graveyard of 12, but you'll pay 1 mana less. With a bigger graveyard, you're going to have better and better value. It also synergizes well since you're probably running thought seize, hymn to tourach, liliana of the veil or rituals which you can turn into zombies..

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Khans_of_Tarkir/_Empty_the_Pits.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Time_Spiral/Empty_the_Warrens.jpghttp://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Avacyn_Restored/Entreat_the_Angels_TMP.jpg

The only deck I can imagine atm which want to make such a heavy color commitment for a lategame card is Death Cloud in Modern. legacy control and combo have better cards with more appealing costs and payout

[TsumiBand]

Really, it's amazing to me how people are just looking at the full Delve cost. Any casting of this spell for 3cmc or less is legitimately solid. Forgetting spells that target, Gatherer indicates there are no cards in Legacy that cast for 2U that say "Draw three cards" without some kind of major drawback - you have to tap four creatures, or discard before/after, or wait for something to trigger or what-have-you. We already know how ridiculously trivial it is to play a series of cantrips/fetchlands/burn spells/etc and quickly fill up a graveyard. So casting this spell for :2::u: and punting 4 cards from the garbage already makes the spell one of the better mana-to-cards draw spells in the format. For that reason alone I'm really skeptical of any graveyard hate that can't hit multiple cards in a turn; a solo DRS isn't going to do much to hurt Treasure Cruise.

Some people say that tapping out to draw three sucks -- oh shit wait that's right we're playing with ISLANDS, do you even Force bro? As for allegedly being bad with decks that care about the contents of their graveyards, don't forget that you can be selective about which cards you are using to feed the Delve - you don't just scoop off the top like a middle school lunchlady. Someone like 14343 pages ago said that this card sucks with Time Spiral -- I'm constructing a scenario here and I realize that, but if I cast TC for like :1::u: or less and remove my six worst cards from my graveyard, isn't that actually fantastic with a Time Spiral effect? Didn't I just live the combo player's dream and reset my deck with a higher cards-to-business ratio? The hell do I care if I exile my fetches and maybe a Ponder or two, I'm tryina go to Graceland if I'm casting Time Spiral -- I want to draw those Meditates and Wishes and shit, not topdeck a gorram fetchland. I could be nuts but that feels like a really great thing to do if you're trying to lower your chances of blowing the combo.

If I didn't have a big wiggly three month old daughter as my constant focus I'd break out my ancient Spring Tide deck and remove 4 bad cards and put in 4 TCs and start goldfishing the shit out that first (not because I think that's where the future is, but because that is what I actually have built... somewhere...?) and figuring out the right number to maindeck. Just reading the people's opinions that have like actually tested the card, that seems to be the primary question mark - not whether or not the card will be played in decks, but how many is the right number.

[bruizar]

stuff
Agreed with everything.
Congrats on the baby!

[Lemnear]

Agreed with everything.
Congrats on the baby!

I'll chime in. Congratz!

[lyracian]

If I didn't have a big wiggly three month old daughter as my constant focus I'd break out my ancient
Congratulations as well; my daughters six now so I know what you mean about not playing as much. I purchased a dozen Treasure Cruise's (they were only 15 cent each) as I am convinced they are worth playing. As you said 3 mana for 3 cards is a good deal.

On Empty the Pits vs Empty the Warrens I was thinking they could work together as an answer for Fizzed storm decks. You aim to make a dozen goblins turn two and then if you need more pressure follow up with EtP a turn or two later to finish the game. It is probably only going to be good enough in a budget storm deck like Sac-Land-Tendrils though.

[Lemnear]

Congratulations as well; my daughters six now so I know what you mean about not playing as much. I purchased a dozen Treasure Cruise's (they were only 15 cent each) as I am convinced they are worth playing. As you said 3 mana for 3 cards is a good deal.

On Empty the Pits vs Empty the Warrens I was thinking they could work together as an answer for Fizzed storm decks. You aim to make a dozen goblins turn two and then if you need more pressure follow up with EtP a turn or two later to finish the game. It is probably only going to be good enough in a budget storm deck like Sac-Land-Tendrils though.

Why use your graveyard to make zombies with an otherwise dead 4cc card if you can just kill your opponent with PIF (which has also flashback)?

[PirateKing]

On Empty the Pits vs Empty the Warrens I was thinking they could work together as an answer for Fizzed storm decks.

It's unusual that Instant speed hurts Empty the Pits here for inclusion in the Storm deck. Ad Nauseam is an instant, but it's so core tot he strategy that it gets a pass. The most exciting part of Void Snare was that is wasn't an instant.

[lyracian]

Why use your graveyard to make zombies with an otherwise dead 4cc card if you can just kill your opponent with PIF (which has also flashback)?
The few times I have played storm I have lost to Thalia/Cannonist and PiF does not really help there; of course PiF probably gives a better success rate going off.


It's unusual that Instant speed hurts Empty the Pits here for inclusion in the Storm deck. Ad Nauseam is an instant, but it's so core tot he strategy that it gets a pass. The most exciting part of Void Snare was that is wasn't an instant.
I agree as a Sorcery it would have been an interesting Wish target; there is just no way it is worth main-decking in TES/ANT as an Instant.

[Richard Cheese]

Why use your graveyard to make zombies with an otherwise dead 4cc card if you can just kill your opponent with PIF (which has also flashback)?

Ok, since we're bringing it over here...like I said it's generally a worse option than EtW, and I think for the most part that goes for PiF too. Still, it's a close second in combo because when you're already running a pile of instant-speed rituals, you can actually crank out a respectable number of zombies pretty fast. Once you've hit the initial BBBB, a Dark Rit is 2 Zombies. Cabal Rit with threshold is 3. Rain of Filth makes each land = Zombie. All this is doable EoT, or in response to a RiP trigger, DRS activation, Surgical...all the common grave hate.

I don't think it makes the cut in TES or AnT because you're already on Red and have Wish and all that jazz, but I'll at least be testing it in TinFins as a postboard alternative to Griselbrand. It might still not be good enough because it's still graveyard dependent, but it dodges all the targeted removal, any Grizzlebees-specific hate (Karakas, Needle/Revoker), and it's on color. Plus we already have Entomb, which makes ritual mana that much more efficient at making Zombies.

That's why I see as a black EtW rather than a black Entreat. It's not something I think you want to try to build up to in the mid-late game, because it's just too easy to answer by then. I think it's more of a turn 3-4 spell, which should be pretty realistic given how quickly combo decks can hit threshold. Really my biggest concern at this point is how good the blue Delve spells turn out to be, and if that will change the nature of grave hate in the format. If everyone moves from Surgical to Relic and you're trying to delve 10+ cards, you're gonna have a bad time.

[PirateKing]

If everyone moves from Surgical to Relic and you're trying to delve 10+ cards, you're gonna have a bad time.

Are you saying Relic because of its first or second ability?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Are you saying Relic because of its first or second ability?

Both of them. The first one suppresses threshold in first turns, then once the opponent gets to three lands and five+ cards in gy, you sac it in anticipation of devle cards, simultaneously drawing into the much needed counterspell.

[pfiremc13]

It's unusual that Instant speed hurts Empty the Pits here for inclusion in the Storm deck. Ad Nauseam is an instant, but it's so core tot he strategy that it gets a pass. The most exciting part of Void Snare was that is wasn't an instant.

Why do you say that?

[MGB]

The more I think about it, the more I believe this author is correct. These cards are powerful and potentially dangerous. Here are a few key reasons why:

(1) They require nothing more than that you are playing Magic to become powerful.

This is why Tarmagoyf, while seemingly conditional, was actually amazing. When Goyf was first spoiled, everyone complained that he would only work in a dredge shell that could maximize him quickly. As it turns out, Goyf is perfectly happy to just go in any deck because playing the game normally will power him up in almost every match.

These draw cards are the same. A legacy deck is going to have two to three cards in its yard very quickly between fetches, cantrips, and early removal or threats. That means that Treasure Cruise, for example, will typically cost 5U or 4U around the time it becomes relevant. That’s a more expensive concentrate, isn’t it? Sure, but look how quickly the cost is dropping to more reasonable levels. By turns four or five, when you probably are running out cards in hand and need to reload, I would be shocked if any deck with a reasonably low curve has not put at least five cards in your yard. By the time you get down to 2U, this Treasure Cruise becomes the best draw spell in Legacy. More than that is cake.

And, did you need to pull any shenanigans to fuel this card? No. You just needed to play the game, and needed time to pass. Incidentally, this is why I think these cards have more legs in Legacy than Vintage. Though Vintage has more interaction per turn, typically Legacy games have more turns and therefore more time to power up your Delve cards.

(2) They are powerful in multiples.

This is the biggest error I see in people analyzing these cards. People also complained about the Legendary status of Jace TMS, and he sees plenty of play as a four-of. Why would you do that when the second one is dead in your hand? Because if you hit the first one, you’re probably winning already and you can afford the dead card.

These cards are exactly the same. Once your opponent has gone on a Cruise once, the game is over if you started at parity. Three cards is HUGE. Ask anyone in Vintage whether they win a game when someone resolves an Ancestral Recall in the first few turns. (Hint: No.)

Moreover, when you’ve drawn a bunch of extra cards, you will be off to the races to refuel your yard for the next Cruise. Heck, if you draw just a pair of removal spells or cantrips, you’ve already set up the next Cruise for 5U in midgame, putting you two or three more spells away from value town again. And let’s not forget that as your mana base increases as the game goes long, the need to Delve to cast the spell gets less and less relevant.

(3) Playing yard hate just for these cards leaves your opponent horribly vulnerable.

Until TNN, Goyf was probably the most universal threat in Legacy. Yet, people did not universally run main deck yard hate to deal with him. Why? Because every card you run that turns off Goyf potentially leaves you naked to another threat in the same deck. Say you’re playing against RWU Delver, and you know they’re running four Treasure Cruise. Do you actually side in your yard hate? Do you want to be playing Rest in Peace as they flip the Delver and start beating for 3 each turn? That’s a terrible place to put yourself.

Indeed, assuming that the Delve player really has no other need for the graveyard, if you put in a lot of yard hate, you’re giving them the same card advantage they were going to get from going on a Treasure Cruise in the first place.

This is less true if your opponent’s yard hate consists of stuff like Joten Grunt, Samurai of the Pale Curtain or the Junk Khan, but those cards see less play because they do less work against the decks you really need to cripple with yard hate.

This is by far the best analysis I've seen on this so far.

Don't be distracted by claims that they are "bad in multiples". Playing 4-of these cards just enables you to hit them more consistently on turn 3-4 and blow out your opponent. Any others in your hand beyond that a.) occur with smaller degree of probability, as drawing 3 more of that card is not as common and b.) don't matter at that stage in the game because you just drew 3 cards and you will probably continue filling your graveyard again over the next few turns.

[Richard Cheese]

Why do you say that?

Because you can't Burning Wish for Instants, which means you can't just throw Empty the Pits into the board for corner cases.

[PirateKing]

Why do you say that?

As it was presented, that card would be good in a Storm deck post fizzle, with lots of cards in the graveyard but a living opponent across from you. So it's already established that we're into plan B mode at this point. Most storm builds are too tightly build to afford an exclusive plan B card. It's either a redundant plan A card like Past in Flames, or a toolbox card like Burning Wish. Since Burning Wish is Sorcery only, the fact that this is an Instant ruins it's playability. Otherwise I think it would get some use as a B.Wish > Empty the Pits > D.Rit > Delve for 100 play after you did your math wrong.

[Infinitium]

Surprised to see Jeskai Swiftblade pass under the radar here seeing as it ousts Goblin Guide as the best red 1-drop in the format and as such is more or less guaranteed play in Lightning Bolt.dec. I guess Delve ancestral and better-than-FoF is guaranteed at least some play as well, but being conditional and using the most easily hateable resource in the game are not points in their favour, especially as most decks already try to utilize their graveyard in some capacity.

[TsumiBand]

Surprised to see Jeskai Swiftblade pass under the radar here seeing as it ousts Goblin Guide as the best red 1-drop in the format and as such is more or less guaranteed play in Lightning Bolt.dec. I guess Delve ancestral and better-than-FoF is guaranteed at least some play as well, but being conditional and using the most easily hateable resource in the game are not points in their favour, especially as most decks already try to utilize their graveyard in some capacity.

Nah brah we had a funeral for Raging Goblin and stuff a couple pages back


Monastery Swiftspear :r:

Creature - Human Monk

Haste, Prowess

1/2

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Dear Raging Goblin:

I've met someone else.

Your ex-hetero-lifemate,
Stick

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I know that KilnFiend.dec is not really A Real Thing, but with the advent of all these Prowess cards I have to wonder if it is going to start to be Almost A Thing. This guy for example; a 1/2 for R?! The hell is that toughness doing there without a drawback! But anyway, in a burn-heavy deck with the right number* of aggressive dorks running around that pump when you cast burny things, it starts to look like something that one could get away with. Coupla Kiln Fiends, coupla this guy, maaaybe some Blue dork since that deck probably plays Gixatian Probe and suddenly you're turn 3ing 26 damages off of two Bolts and a Fireblast. Rawr!

* obviously the more dudes in such a deck the less burn can be in there so it'd be a delicate balance, but this guy is better than, like, Blistercoil Weird in terms of just being durdly and aggro

But basically yeah, later I went on to say that he's probably going to bite Goblin Guide's heels as time passes. A single burn spell makes him bigger than Guide, and he doesn't risk giving the opponent cards in hand. I think a deck that would play Guide would *also* play this guy, at least for now, but it definitely goes a long way towards challenging several other cards for being a go-to Red one-drop.