[Deck] RUG Lands [Archive] - Page 2

Admiral_Arzar

02-03-2015, 05:21 PM

Figured I'd post this here rather than necro-ing the ancient New Age Lands thread. Took first in a small local event with this list:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
1 Burgeoning

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crop Rotation
4 Burning Wish
1 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Intuition
2 Scapeshift
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

4 Taiga
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest

3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All

Sideboard

1 Bojuka Bog
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Overmaster
1 Shattering Spree
1 Life from the Loam
1 Firespout
1 Scapeshift
1 Massacre
1 Slaughter Games
1 Reverent Silence

My meta has a lot of Delver, Miracles, and midrange blue decks. There's relatively little nonblue except the occasional DnT or Jund, and not much combo either. Thus it seemed like a pretty good time to revive an old Lands variant. The point of this version isn't to lock out your opponent (although it's quite capable of doing so) but to stall until you 7-8 lands in play and then cast Scapeshift for the win. Burning Wish acts as extra copies of Scapeshift while also fetching all sorts of answers to various board states (or silver bullets in the case of Slaughter Games).

Round 1 (Reanimator)

I'm on the draw with a pretty slow hand, but it has a Scapeshift, a Wish, and a Crop Rotation in addition to plenty of lands. My opponent plays Sea, Thoughtseize your Scapeshift. Then another Sea. I'm thinking Storm and not feeling very good about things when I play turn 3 Intuition into a Daze. Guess it isn't Storm. I wish for Loam. A turn or two later my opponent Reanimates Sire of Insanity, I respond with Crop Rotation into Maze of Ith. Maze keeps Sire at bay while I make land drops, eventually finding Karakas for any other creatures. I Scapeshift for the win once I hit 7 lands. I shave something slow for the Bojuka Bog and mull away a do-nothing hand into one with Bog. He Studies Carefully, and I Bog away his dudes. I Waste his black source but not before he Entombs for Inkwell Leviathan. He Exhumes said Leviathan off of a drawn Lotus Petal. As Maze seems bad now, I Crop Rotation into Wasteland and Waste his only land, then slam the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Inkwell dies to upkeep and Waste-lock takes it from there. 2-0

Round 2 (Death and Taxes)

On the draw again vs. a turn one AEther Vial. On turn 3 or 4 I fetch Badlands and Burning Wish for Massacre, nuking his board. I destroy the Vial with an EE and clean up with Punishing Fire for many turns until I finally draw Wish for Scapeshift. I board in some Grips and the second EE for some of the slower stuff. Game two I get a little mana-screwed (lol) which is exacerbated by Thalia and a Revoker for my Mox Diamond. My opponent plays a Brimaz and beats me down before I'm able to establish a Chasm lock. Game three is rather similar to Game one - Massacre kills a bunch of dudes, then EE and Punishing Fire kill some more. I'm able to get a Chasm lock going to protect myself from his Mother of Runes (equipped with Sword of Fire and Ice) but can't find a win condition despite having a huge number of lands in play. The match ends in a draw as I needed one more turn to finish Punishing Fire-ing my opponent to death. 1-1-1

Round 3 (Imperial Painter)

Paired down into Moon.dec. Uh oh. I keep a hand with Exploration and Mox Diamond and play out some lands, but my opponent has Blood Moon on turn 2 or 3. I wish for Reverent Silence but have to wait a turn to hardcast it as I technically control no forests. I Waste a Sol Land or two and kill a dude or two with Punishing Fire. My opponent doesn't draw a second Moon and I get there with Scapeshift. Game two I board in all the Grips and the second EE, shaving Kiora, the Intuitions, and I think a Crucible. I also swap the Karakas for Bojuka Bog as I know he plays Welder. After a mulligan, my opener has a Mox and a Fetch, while my opponent mulls to 5. I fetch basic Forest but he plays Painter and REBs it (!) before playing Blood Moon. Luckily I have green mana from the Mox and a Grip. I EE away the Painter a turn later and then lock my opponent out with Wasteland and double Rishadan Port. Scapeshift eventually gets there. 2-0

Round 4 (UWR Stoneblade)

This was a more controlling UWR list than I was used to, with Counterspells and Jaces. Game one I get mana-screwed but Wish for Loam. Said Loam is countered three or four turns in a row before my opponent concedes, as he found nothing else. I board in EE and a couple of Grips for the expected equipment. Game two is a long and grindy affair. I eventually Wish for Slaughter Games and name Jace (hitting one in hand) before realizing I should have named True-Name Nemesis instead. Said Nemesis comes down and starts beating me up with a Sword of Feast and Famine. I topdeck Boseiju, Who Shelters All, play it, and pass. Next turn I play an uncounterable Scapeshift through my opponent's handful of countermagic. 2-0

Overall, the deck performed exceptionally well. The 1-of Kiora was an experiment, but since I never drew her I can't really comment on if she's any good. The Trinisphere in the board should probably just be an Ensnaring Bridge because one lock piece isn't going to get you there against Storm. I like the fact that this deck is much less graveyard dependent than most Lands variants - you can actually ignore most yard hate and just win with Scapeshift. Boseiju also gives you some inevitability against slow blue decks like Miracles. Burning Wish allows you to answer hate that would otherwise wreck you game one (Blood Moon primarily). I recommend this deck to anyone in a blue-heavy meta with not much combo.

Anen

02-03-2015, 06:04 PM

Overall, the deck performed exceptionally well. The 1-of Kiora was an experiment, but since I never drew her I can't really comment on if she's any good. The Trinisphere in the board should probably just be an Ensnaring Bridge because one lock piece isn't going to get you there against Storm. I like the fact that this deck is much less graveyard dependent than most Lands variants - you can actually ignore most yard hate and just win with Scapeshift. Boseiju also gives you some inevitability against slow blue decks like Miracles. Burning Wish allows you to answer hate that would otherwise wreck you game one (Blood Moon primarily). I recommend this deck to anyone in a blue-heavy meta with not much combo.

This was my first Lands deck. Good memories :)

Nuke is Good

03-05-2015, 09:50 PM

I found Rishadan Ports at a decent price and decided to snatch em up. Lands looked like the next best thing to build and scrounged something up with the cards I had at home:

Main Deck (60)
Creatures (0)
Spells (26)
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
1 Sylvan Library
2 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Intuition
1 Smokestack
1 Worm Harvest
Lands (34)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Dark Confidant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Krosan Grip

I have noticed that RUG lists tend to forgo Tranquil Thicket, is there something I'm missing here? Tranquil Thicket and Loam seem to be best buddies and is great protection from Surgical.

The real reason I wanted to build Lands was, it seemed like the only deck that could use cards from my old Stax deck like my Tabernacle, Crucible, and Mox Diamonds. Also Smokestack can actually be used here. I went for a MD Zuran Orb due to Burn being prevalent in my meta with a SB Crucible due to Surgical.

Though in a meta full of burn is it better to go straight R/G than it is RUG?

Phelix

03-06-2015, 04:42 AM

If your meta, unlike mine, is burn heavy, id play zuran orb and an extra combopiece (or more pieces even). Id also play the full set of chalices.

snorlaxcom

03-08-2015, 05:48 PM

You said this was lying around so Savannah makes some sense. Id go for at least another grove and a taiga. I like crucible instead of Library md, but that is my taste.

I have a thicket in my list, but it was primarily to abuse Manabond and cutting one freed some space since the other was not as good. Thicket still has uses as the meta has crept up on drs. Thicket wasnt as necessary this past year since Twest goes for key cards and this has more one-ofs we need than redundancy. I would try to jam in a thicket or two if you are digging for a Smokestack or Wormharvest to stabilize.

You can also try a Sundroplet (hits every upkeep), Dragon´s Claw (we have Pfire!), or Chill if burn is that bad. Set of Chalice is pretty standard and comes in here. Tbh Chasm lock does enough in those games and finish with a harvest or DD. If you are facing that much red then calm down on the bobs and use at most 3.

mgrinshpon

03-10-2015, 12:25 AM

I played a version that I tuned to the imaginary post ban meta, but i faced a really strange meta of 69 decks, ONE miracles among them, and perhaps 2-3 storm combo decks. (WTF) While scouting prior to the event, i made som last minute changes and put the second Engineered explosives back in, there was loads of tribal, maverick, and other mid rangy decks.

I expected more storm combo, and more miracles, than pre-bannings.

The list:

[CARDS]
3 intuition
2 punishing fire
4 exploration
1 worm harvest
1 sylvan library
1 abrupt decay
3 crop rotation
4 life from the loam

4 mox diamond
2 engineered explosives
1 smokestack
1 ensnaring bridge

3 maze of ith
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
1 glacial chasm
1 dark depths
1 ghost quarter
1 academy ruins
2 thespians stage
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
3 different fetches
2 tolaria west
3 tropical island
1 savannah
1 bayou
1 forest
2 grove of the burnwillows
1 karakas
1 urborg, tomb of yagwmoth
1 bojuka bog.

//Sideboard:
4 Dark confidant
4 sphere of resistance
2 chalice of the void
2 ethersworn canonist
1 abrupt decay
1 containment priest
// Thrun was first tourney followed by Zuran Orb
1 thrun the last troll
1 Zuran Orb
[CARDS]

I gave up on Jund Depths a little while ago and now have this decklist. This 76 was my first attempt with the U/G lands version and I loved it. My "meta" is a small store with 10-20 person events with unlimited proxies meaning really bizzare decks show up all the time. When I first started playing there, it was all combo and miracles. Now it's faired-out a bit. I'm still having sideboard problems with the deck in the sense that I have no idea what I'm doing.

Tournament 1: Ran Thrun in the board.

Match 1: Miracles: 2-0. Won game 1 with Board: -1 Intuition, -1 Worm Harvest, -1 Crop Rotation, -1 Smokestack, -1 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 other, +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Match 2: Punishing Jund: 2-1. Misplayed horribly game 1 causing my Tabernacle to get wasted out and then eaten by a Deathrite Shaman. Won both post-board games. Board: +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Thrun, the Last Troll.

Match 3: MUD: 2-1. Lost game 1 to an early 5/3. Games 2 and 3 turned into a race to get Marit Lage which I succeeded admirably at. Board: +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Abrupt Decay, can't remember what I sideboarded out.

Tournament 2: Ran Zuran Orb.

Match 1: Maverick with a Blue transformational sideboard: 1-0-1 (in tournament). Board: nothing at all. I know he doesn't have Rest in Peace or anything I care about all.

Match 2: Elves. 2-1. Punted the pre-board game by misplay after misplay. Board: +2 Chalice, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Containment Priest?, -1 Karakas, -1 Worm Harvest?, -1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Intuition, -1 something else maybe? Chalice was amazing here.

Match 3: Death and Taxes. 1-0. We split the top prize and gave up after game 1. My sideboard plan would have been something like +4 Dark Confidant, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Containment Priest, -1 Worm Harvest, -1 Intuition, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ghost Quarter, -1 Smokestack, -1 Life from the Loam?

Thoughts on the boarding?

snorlaxcom

03-17-2015, 01:23 PM

Don't like the list post-ban because doesn't address sneak and show well enough. Boarding seemed ok, but I would have leaned toward chalice in all the games except d&t and obviously mud.

Sockosensei

03-17-2015, 09:02 PM

Don't like the list post-ban because doesn't address sneak and show well enough. Boarding seemed ok, but I would have leaned toward chalice in all the games except d&t and obviously mud.

What changes would you suggest for addressing Sneak & Show?

My current RUG list is consistent at finding its main pieces but at the cost of some bullets, namely Karakas out of the main. I'm certainly soft to Omni and Sneak & Show. Also, how do you feel about running an Ancient Tomb for T1 Spheres and Chalices? I can't fit Tomb main but have considered it for the SB, perhaps with the 4th Crop Rotation to hit it.

snorlaxcom

03-19-2015, 01:17 AM

Phelix

03-19-2015, 08:08 AM

If sneak is significant in your meta, id also recommend playing ensnaring bridge main as well as a second copy in the board. (bridge was not particularly usefull pre ban as there were so many 1 and two power dudes)

Revokers are great here. you may even cut one Engineered explosives, to move a card into the maindeck.

Fortunatly my meta is not heavy on this.(in Ghent i even played two gilded drakes)

Sockosensei

03-22-2015, 06:37 AM

Needs krosan grip/seal of primordium and or needle/revoker effect to cut off sneak and moon post board so we don't auto-lose. These pull their weight vs miracles and mud as well. Grip is sick vs omni, but I prefer trinisphere over little sphere here. They can still win with 1/2 sphere out and making kgrip 5-6 mana is has been horrible in my exp.

If sneak is significant in your meta, id also recommend playing ensnaring bridge main as well as a second copy in the board. (bridge was not particularly usefull pre ban as there were so many 1 and two power dudes)

Revokers are great here. you may even cut one Engineered explosives, to move a card into the maindeck.

Fortunatly my meta is not heavy on this.(in Ghent i even played two gilded drakes)

Thanks for the replies. Here's what I've had sleeved up recently (before any changes based on your recommendations).

Land (34)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Green Fetch

3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
3x Thespian's Stage
2x Dark Depths
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Bojuka Bog
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm

Non-Land (27)
3x Crop Rotation
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
1x Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard (15)
1x Karakas
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
3x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Slaughter Games
1x Smokestack

I've been back and forth on Karakas in the main over the 3rd Stage or 2nd Depths and freeing up a sideboard slot for Ensnaring Bridge.
I've dodged the Omni and Sneak decks recently but I expect them out in force at GP Kyoto, as well as Miracles and Elves. It's fair to expect far less monored Burn here than at tournaments in North America, which is why I've cut Zuran Orb (not bad, just not essential). When I tried a singleton maindeck Bridge in the past, I found myself drawing it off the top with 5-6 lands in hand and no Exploration :D

So something like this?
-2 Sphere of Resistance --> +2 Trinisphere in the board
Karakas back to the main --> -1 Stage or Depths
+1 E.Bridge to the board

Phelix

03-22-2015, 06:16 PM

Id swap the crucible and the smokestack.

Slaughter games is sweet. but odds are against it working out. (drawing it, not having it discarded, finding 4 correct mana in time, etc)

Did you test these choices and how did that work out for you?

Sockosensei

03-23-2015, 02:03 AM

Did you test these choices and how did that work out for you?It's been a couple of weeks since I've been able to attend an event. This week I'll attend two and we'll see how things play out.

Id swap the crucible and the smokestack.

Slaughter games is sweet. but odds are against it working out. (drawing it, not having it discarded, finding 4 correct mana in time, etc)

I also have reservations about the Slaughter Games for the reasons you mentioned. Still, I'd like to give it a test drive since it has potential application in several matchups.

Phelix

03-23-2015, 05:45 AM

Allright, so its on a theoretical level. Thats fine, im really interested in hearing how it turns out.

Perhaps slaughter games becomes a better card if you play 3?

snorlaxcom

03-23-2015, 01:50 PM

Thanks for the replies. Here's what I've had sleeved up recently (before any changes based on your recommendations).

I assume the 4 missing cards are Exploration. I have Orb instead of Chasm for the moment because D&t in my area has more ways to interact with Chasm. Slaughter Games could be nice vs a miracles wincon or if spewed t2/t3 vs combo.

Sockosensei

03-28-2015, 05:09 AM

I assume the 4 missing cards are Exploration. I have Chasm instead of Orb for the moment because D&t in my area has more ways to interact with Chasm. Slaughter Games could be nice vs a miracles wincon or if spewed t2/t3 vs combo.

Good catch. I forgot to write the 4 Exploration.

I've only had one match vs Miracles since adding the Slaughter Games. It ensured victory by removing win conditions. As expected, it's extremely powerful in the matchup. It might be overkill as I already transform into Hate.dec for that matchup -- possible over-boarding. At the same time, with Miracles expected in high numbers in any large tournament here, I'm okay with a bit of overkill provided those cards can be applied to other matchups.
For reference I sided:
Out: 2 P. Fire, 1 Chasm, 1 Karakas, 1 Tabernacle, 3 Intuition, 2 Crop Rotation, 1 Gamble, 2 Maze, 1 Bojuka Bog
In: 2 Decay, 2 Grip, 2 Slaughter, 1 Smokestack, 2 Chalice, 3 Sphere, 2 Revoker

Perhaps slaughter games becomes a better card if you play 3?
Just to clarify, do you mean to maximize the ability to draw it naturally, or to leave Intuition in for certain matchups and have SG as a possible target?
Also, do you think SG is worth boarding in for matchups with True-Name or should I attempt to win through other means?

There have a couple of other things I've been wondering about and would appreciate any input.

(1) The combination of Gamble with Crop Rotation and Intuition has been excellent in game 1 of the matches I've played since putting this list together. The issue I'm having is post-board: Gamble & Crop Rotation excel in their ability to avoid my graveyard, but increasing my one-drops has added tension with Chalice of the Void, a card that has long been my go-to hate piece, previously at 3-4 copies. Should I side out some Gambles and CRs when bringing in Chalice or should I keep them in assuming that if Chalice is at 1 then I'm winning and if it gets countered or destroyed then I have excellent one-drops at the ready?

(2) Pyroclasm is a beating vs. a huge portion of the meta. Is it worth including? If so, where are the slots?
I recently came across this metagame data based on SCG results since the Treasure Cruise banning (http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/300x8j/scg_legacy_results_for_major_archetypes_dc_dallas/). (I'm not in that exact meta but it's the best data I have. For discussion purposes assume my meta has more Miracles and Omni and less mono-red Burn.) I ran the numbers and Pyroclasm kills more than 2/3 of the creatures in about 55% of that meta. While we have positive matchups against most of the fair creature decks, sometimes I get out-maneuvered because I can't kill DRS, or because Pyromancer is active with an army and I can't stabilize the board in time. I know our usual critter control methods; I'm considering this as a supplement to make our defensive position more stable and reduce pressure to allow time to take control. I've never seen Pyroclasm discussed and wondered if anyone had any experience with it.

snorlaxcom

03-28-2015, 06:25 PM

I had it for gp dc and could never cast it vs d&t since they kept me off red mana. I eventually replaced it and ee#3 with revokers though. It's the most efficient sweeper we can use to catch up on the board after you drop chalice in the early turns. After pyroclasm hits you can manage the board much easier with a single pfire. My plan was to hate on elves back then, but it still applies to delver/pyromancer decks.

Extracting a TNN seems horrible since EE doesn't care about a 3 power for 3. You win by just hitting for 20.

SGames is really appealing in the Show and tell matches, especially Omnitell.

Sockosensei

03-30-2015, 05:12 AM

I top-4ed a GPT trial for Kyoto yesterday with RUG Lands. Approximately 25-30 players.

At a recent event at the local shop, the room was 75% Delver and all creature-based decks except for mine. These are primarily players who’re attending the GP next month. This combined with the SCG meta data from my previous post made me decide to try Pyroclasm in the side for added insurance in the creature matchups, instead of running Slaughter Games. Perhaps the OmniTell takeover I’ve been hearing about here is just watercooler hype anyway.

Land (34)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Green Fetch

3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
3x Thespian's Stage
1x Dark Depths
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Bojuka Bog
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas

Non-Land (27)
3x Crop Rotation
2x Gamble
3x Intuition
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Smokestack

Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trinisphere
1x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Pyroclasm
1x Smokestack
1x Ensnaring Bridge

Rd. 1 Esper Stoneblade: 1-0
A 45-min game in which I made tokens repeatedly and frequently found myself at 60 life. Game 2 ended in turns soon after starting.
1-0 in rounds.

Rd. 2 OmniTell: 2-1
G1: I never had a chance, even with 3x Port.
G2: Trinisphere FTW.
G3: The opponent had me dead but seemed to misunderstand Trinisphere, despite having lost to it the previous game. He probed twice and seeing it in my hand still Show & Telled. I had the combo on the board and immediately made a 20/20 and won. Had he played his turn differently, he would have had the mana to win through the Trinisphere. A true gift.
OUT: -3 Wasteland, -2 Maze, -2 P. Fire, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Chasm, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 EE
IN: 2 K. Grip, 2 Trinisphere, 2 Chalice, 1 Sphere, 1 E. Bridge, 1 Smokestack, 2 Revoker
2-0 in rounds.

Rd 3 High Tide: 2-0
G1: Ports could only hold out so long. He was two Time Spirals deep into his combo turn with double Candelabra and I was considering scooping to save time when he Ponder-ed and mixed the cards with his hands like a Brainstorm. Immediate game loss. Based on what he said, he seemed like he might fizzle, and I was looking to resolve my maindeck Smokestack on the next turn. Still, this was a tremendous gift in an abysmal matchup.
G2: The Magic Gods punished him with a mana-light hand and my Ports and Smokestacks snuffed out the candle.
OUT: -3 Wasteland, -3 Maze, -2 P. Fire, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Chasm, -1 can’t remember
IN: 2 K. Grip, 1 A. Decay, 2 Revoker, 2 Trinisphere, 1 Sphere of Resistance, 2 Chalice, 1 Smokestack
3-0 in rounds.

Rd. 4 OmniTell: 0-2
G1: was never in question. He won with little opposition from me.
G2: I played T1 Revoker and began the beatdown. Trinisphere backup nearly got there, but he found Hurkyl’s Recall and Wipe Away to win at 4 life.
Sided: Same or similar to round 2.
3-1 in rounds.

Rd. 5 UGx Delver: ID into top 8.
We played one of the games for fun and I had the nuts: Exploration, Loam-Wastelock, Tabernacle, and the natural combo.
3-1-1 in rounds.

Quarter-finals Punishing Jund: 2-0
G1: We know what each other are on and mull to hands appropriate for the matchup. His T1 DRS meets Mox, Land, Punishing Fire. His turn two DRS meets , Land, Crop Rotation for Grove, Punishing Fire. He scooped once I had Waste-lock and Maze protection.
G2: Tabernacle kept him busy while I Crop Rotated into a 20/20.
OUT: 3 Intuition, 1 Glacial Chasm, 1 Karakas, 1 Bojuka Bog ← perhaps this should’ve stayed in?
IN: 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Pyroclasm, 1 Smokestack, 1 Ensnaring Bridge

Semi-finals Miracles: 0-1
Again, we know what each other are on and both mull.
G1: He has T1 Top into T2 Counterbalance on the play, but I resolve Crucible and eventually Intuition. The Intuition pile is where I think I went wrong: I already had Wasteland active, so I fetched Ghost Quarter, Tolaria West, and Loam, stupidly assuming I’d resolve a two-mana spell at some point. Loam, even if countered, would get me three cards deep each turn for Crucible targets. Instead, I think I should have tutored up Academy Ruins, EE, and maybe Ghost Quarter, since Academy Ruins eliminates Jace’s ultimate as a win condition in game 1, and EE-lock is the true beating in the matchup. He ran 8 basics instead of the usual 6 that I see and that extra bit of resilience to Ghost Quarter allowed him to resolve Jace and eventually reach his ultimate. Ports were slow in showing up, and I never found Academy Ruins or even a Thespian’s Stage in my top 40 cards. I lost by milling out to Jace after manually defrosting Marit Lage for one final futile swing attempt. G1 took 40+ mins and G2 ended in turns soon after beginning.

Looking back, I can find at least 5-6 spots where playing differently could have won the match, especially better using the Ghost Quarter shuffles to disrupt his Counter-Top lock to resolve Loam→Tolaria West→Academy for safety. Frankly, my opponent played extremely well in a tough position, essentially trying to give me opportunities to punt, which I did. I certainly overvalued the Crucible-GQ lock.

It’s time to for me to review my play vs. Miracles in general.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OmniTell was approximately 20-25% of the room. Several players who didn’t play it in the event were goldfishing it beforehand and in between rounds. Friends of mine at a separate GPT in another city also mentioned seeing a lot of it. I would certainly have preferred the Slaughter Games in the sideboard on this particular day. Looking forward, I need to reassess my sideboard with this matchup in mind.

Thanks to all of you who have given me suggestions in recent days, both in the thread and through PM.

snorlaxcom

03-30-2015, 10:35 AM

Rivfader

03-30-2015, 01:21 PM

This combined with the SCG meta data from my previous post made me decide to try Pyroclasm in the side for added insurance in the creature matchups, instead of running Slaughter Games.

Congrats with the result!
I have considered Slaughtergames some times (in a RGb shell), but never tested the card mainly because of sphere of resistance (RB2 is hard, but with spheres it gets even harder). Did you ever succesfully played the card in the past versus combo? Would love to hear how this turned out.

Sockosensei

03-30-2015, 10:11 PM

Miracles

I would consider two piles: stage, depths, and loam or ee, academy, and loam/fetch/ee#2. Both help you hit land drops every turn and is where miracles starts to fall behind (flipping some ports is a bonus).

The first pile puts him on having instant speed removal every other turn (waste neutralizes opposing Karakas if present). The turn you play Stage you dredge and cast loam to flip over the deck to expand your options in future turns. The following turn you play depths and activate at his eot. Attack. A terminus will eventually flip the Top to remove Marit and that is when you can strike with spells through counterbalance.

The second pile may shut down all win cons, but is dicey because he has an active top to stop ee@2&3 (you resolved crucible and Intuition so cmc3 may work). I suggest a fetch instead of loam if you don't have any lands in hand. Falling behind on land drops just makes this match that much more difficult. EE lock will tie up your mana and you need to be making progress on the board if he repeatedly counters EE so that future EEs can be charged further. I suggest ee#2 if you have a fetch in hand or multiple lands in in hand because they can Clique away an ee in the draw step.

Conceding is also a great option here to win the next games or force the draw. This could help you in more matches if can assume that a game will regularly take 20-25min.That's extremely well explained, thank you. I wish I had gone with the first pile you described to pressure and force him to spend his resources digging for answers turn after turn.

As far as scooping earlier, I seriously considered it. However I thought I might still have the game: I suspected he was out of or nearly out of white sources, or that I would be able to Waste/Quarter the final source before making the token. He ended up fetching what was likely his final white source. It was tough to know the exact numbers since I can't recall facing a Miracles build with a basic mountain and 8 basics in total.

Congrats with the result!
I have considered Slaughtergames some times (in a RGb shell), but never tested the card mainly because of sphere of resistance (RB2 is hard, but with spheres it gets even harder). Did you ever succesfully played the card in the past versus combo? Would love to hear how this turned out.Thanks! I was rather lucky that my Rd 2 and Rd 3 opponents made the mistakes they did, but I won't complain :D
I don't have enough data on Slaughter Games to make any firm judgment.
I had it in the deck for a week or so, and in that time I only got to cast it in one matchup (Miracles), where it was awesome. Whether it's any good in the combo matchups is something I'd like to determine. Will your hate pieces let you live long enough to cast it? All of my games vs Omni went 5+ turns thanks to Ports and Trinisphere. Slaughter Games on top of that would have been killer.

What do people think of Raven's Crime or other discard spells for the 2-3 final SB slots, in addition to hate artifacts? I found vs Omni and High Tide I reached the 3-4 mana range and had to decide between casting a hate piece instead of Porting, and possibly having it countered and then losing on their turn. Knowing that Omni has to win through Show and Tell, I had a strong incentive to hold Trinisphere back. At the same time, resolving it would have seriously limited their hand sculpting. I know we want our hate to be more lasting than a one-for-one trade, but something like a Duress or Thoughtseize on turns 1-3 would allow a peek, remove a combo or protection spell, and hopefully clear a path to resolve a hate artifact. Too much conflict with Chalice?

bryanzoll

03-31-2015, 07:59 AM

Grats on your finish sock.

but is dicey because he has an active top to stop ee@2&3 (you resolved crucible and Intuition so cmc3 may work)

In this particular instance, you can cast EE for whatever mana cost you want to avoid counterbalance trigger. You can pay 4 with only 2 colors to get an EE in for 2.

cchalc

03-31-2015, 12:20 PM

Hey all, I finally picked up a tabernacle and trying to get into lands. I started with RG combo lands but after playing it for a month or so I am now a bit fed up with a bunch of dead draws and would like to play something a little more robust and controlling. I have noticed on this thread most people are using crop rotation to find the silver bullet lands. However, I am looking to try out the enlightened tutor build and the addition of scroll rack (scroll rack idea came from Andrew Bowman on the WUBRG.xyz twitch stream). My only hesitation on enlightened tutor is the colour sensitivity and speed. I took a decklist by Felix Munch I found on mtgtop8 and modified it to fit in the tutors and swap out crop rotations.

Maindeck: 61

Lands: 35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Not Lands: 26
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Scroll Rack
1 Zuran Orb
4 Exploration
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Intuition
1 Worm Harvest
4 Life from the Loam

Sideboard: 15
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip

Changes to the maindeck:
-3 crop rotations, -1 EE, -1 sylvan library
+2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 scroll rack, +1 zuran orb, +1 tranquil thicket

Changes to SB:
-1 containment priest, -1 thrun,
+1 EE, +1 krosan grip

Comments:
I think both the zuran orb and tranquil thicket are great utilities to have. The scroll rack is essentially replacing the sylvan library. Does anyone want to make an argument for sylvan? The logic I see is that scroll rack is only valuable with cards in your hand which does not compliment the ensnaring bridge. I like that scroll rack can be recurred with academy runes as well just in case it does get milled. Took out the second EE as you now have extra tutors for it. Added one to the SB as you typically need a second one when trying to deal with RIP.

Concerns:
Enlightened tutor can be a little rough as it does not give quick access to bojuka bog or karakas. Perhaps adding another tolaria west to find the lands. I suppose containment priest is a good answer to Sneak&Show considering we are splashing white. I would also consider a tormods crypt which can be tutored for by tolaria west and enlightened tutor. However, enlightened tutor also helps you find ensnaring bridge faster.
Punishing fire is great and very hard to jam in extras especially when trying to splash the fifth colour.
Creeping tar pit seems good but hard to find space, especially in a 5 colour deck.

Alternative SB:
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's crypt
1 Containment Priest

Changes to previous SB:
-1 Ethersworn Canonist, -1 krosan grip
+1 containment priest, +1 tormods crypt.

I plan on playing a control lands shell at my local legacy games this week on Wednesday and Thursday. If you have any suggestions before then let me know. I will report back with deck list, results, meta analysis. Results may be unreliable as I am pretty new to playing lands.

/c

Lonely Sandbar

03-31-2015, 03:58 PM

This is Andrew. I'm glad you liked the idea! It actually comes from Tom McLeod so he gets the credit. Top had also been run within E tutor versions.

You might also consider something like Oblivion Stone as a board wipe should your meta require it.

StinkmothNexus

03-31-2015, 09:56 PM

This may be the wrong place for this post, and if so, i am sorry and am OK having it moved somewhere else.

I am interested in making a Lands Infect deck built around the inkmoth nexus, and wanted to know if anyone has tried this. Getting it out of the way, Im sure people are thinking, "why not just play U/G infect" or "why not just play lands?"

I guess the answer is that while I like U/G infect, it definitely has its drawbacks as a deck, and I like the range of control lands has. That said, the infect win con is cool, i like the man lands, and the potential to pump the blinkmoths with blinkmoth nexus, pendelhaven, or even cathedral of war or centaurs garden, I havent seen. This could be established using the Life from the Loam engine that lands uses, and it could be protected via Tabernacle, wasteland, ports, karakas, etc.

So this is what im tinkering with, and wondering if it tickles anyone enough to want to discuss it.

Anen

04-01-2015, 06:53 AM

Lonely Sandbar

04-03-2015, 09:42 AM

Creeping Tar Pit is the manland of choice in RUG.

Indeed, I enjoy having it as another avenue of attacking planeswalkers. Worm Harvest also pulls weight in that department.

Phelix

04-03-2015, 04:58 PM

Sockosensei

04-04-2015, 12:38 PM

Grats on your finish sock.

In this particular instance, you can cast EE for whatever mana cost you want to avoid counterbalance trigger. You can pay 4 with only 2 colors to get an EE in for 2.Thank you!
I think that EE trick is what Snorlaxcom was getting at when he said "you resolved crucible and Intuition so cmc3 may work or more CMC if you have the mana". cmc3 does seem to be the soft spot in most Miracles lists, especially if they're running Snapcaster.

I swear by worm harvest. Occasionally tar pit.I miss running Worm Harvest. I know you usually pair it with Smokestack, but out of curiosity, if you could only fit one, which would you choose? (or neither...) Have you made any changes to your list since Germany?

I feel reasonably prepared for most matchups, but Omni is still getting to me. Auto-losing game 1 and then having to win both G2 and G3 is a tough spot to be in. I've been looking for a card to include in the main that would give me some chance in G1. Ensnaring Bridge might buy a turn but I still need to combo and remove the Bridge before dying. That seems like a tall order. Another card I've considered as a singleton Gamble target is The Abyss. Emrakul will die on the extra turn's upkeep and will not have an attack or annihilator. Moreover, Marit Lage can completely ignore the Abyss and just swing for the win. If I went this route, The Abyss would replace Smokestack in my list. Is this worth doing? Is there a better singleton Gamble target for the main? Or, should I ignore G1 completely?

For reference, I'm running
Land (34)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Green Fetch

3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
2x Thespian's Stage
2x Dark Depths
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Bojuka Bog
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas

Non-Land (27)
3x Crop Rotation
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x FLEX (currently Smokestack)

Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trinisphere
1x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x FLEX (Slaughter Games, Pyroclasm, E. Bridge, Cursed Totem, etc.)

snorlaxcom

04-04-2015, 01:51 PM

I don't care for decays and would opt for just krosan grips if you are worried about miracles and Omni. Sneak and show also has bloodmoon (and some dated miracles lists or etutor versions) so grip is more consistent to cast in these matches. The interaction on the stack is vital vs Omni, but sometimes they sculpt a hand with double omni in hand or emrakul as the first free spell. If you want other spells to jam you can look at Arcane Laboratory or Mana Maze. With Maze you can Play Intuition(I would side out gambles) in their upkeep for the Slaughter Games with a bonus side effect of Silence. Doesn't stop Spaghetti Master off an Omni, but with a virtual 6 Slaughter Games and other hate sided in you should increase win%. I counted 15 cards that can be sided in/out(with revoker naming Jace).

If you die to Lab Maniac too often then you can use Sudden Shock.

cchalc

04-06-2015, 11:53 AM

I swear by worm harvest. Occasionally tar pit.

Im that guy Cchalc that you sniped the list from ;) tutors to me give me the concern of speed, particuarly when you topdeck them, since you will be blocking you own dredges, and they are usually not that good vs miracles (since they counter it)

I played the posted list at last weeks local legacy. Only three rounds and I went 0-3. Match ups were: 1) Doomsday, 2) Infect, 3) Omnitell. Not exactly a good meta choice. :P

Against Doomsday I found the enlightened tutor worked well helping me find Ethersworn Canonist on turn two. However, he fooled me with a Monastery Mentor sideboard swap and I removed pretty much all creature hate. 0-2

Against infect I did okay. Game 1 he just had me with an exalted double invigorate glistner elf. Game 2 went really well as I had a wasteland - ghost quarter draw + mazes. I managed to smokestack him out and he scooped. Game three was an okay start if I could get the punishing fire online. Did not see a grove and apparently I don't even have a red source fetch target. This is a +1 for crop rotation as it allows finding the groves easily. I find the infect match up is 5050. Sometimes they have the wasteland or vines to push through the infect damage.

Against Omnitell - just got hosed. Nothing else to say. Boarded in as much hate as I could but no dice.

Overall I found scroll rack to be a dud. I had a soft spot in my heart for it as I used to play various version of parfait (Tax/Rack control). But I find that lands does not want to accumulate cards in hand and wait multiple turns to get a good scroll rack engine going. I am most likely going to make the switch to sylvan. As for the enlightened tutors.... I think the white splash is too light to justify another colour. I think that crop rotations are more important to find your silver bullets and especially grove of the burnwillows.

New list:

Maindeck: 61

Lands: 35
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
3 Maze of Ith
3 Tropical Island
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Not Lands: 26
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Smokestack
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Sylvan Library
4 Exploration
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
3 Crop Rotation
3 Intuition
1 Worm Harvest
4 Life from the Loam

Sideboard: 15
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Dark Confidant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
1 Zuran Orb

Changes to maindeck:
-1 Savannah, -1 Scroll Rack, -1 Karakas, -2 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Zuran Orb
+1 Taiga, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Creeping Tar pit, +3 Crop Rotation

Changes to SB:
-2 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Karakas, +1 Zuran Orb

Comments:
I added the taiga because I want to be able to fetch red if needed. Sylvan Library for value, Creeping tar pit because I found the deck could use another blue source. Often I found tolaria west in my hand with insufficient mana to cast. 3 Crop rotations seems right. I found the zuran orb unnecessary in the main ... mind you I played a lot of combo. moving Karakas to the side is a bit iffy. Perhaps more of a local meta choice. Very rarely does anyone show up with sneak and show...and the only two reanimator decks currently being played are WGD and Necrotic ooze respectively.

Will be trying it again on Thursday. Will definitely come back with more results.

One With Nothing

04-07-2015, 03:40 AM

cchalc

04-07-2015, 12:26 PM

I've been testing your list a lot and have some questions for you. What is the Ensnaring Bridge for? I find myself always siding it out and it never being much more than a target for Abrupt Decay. Secondly, when do you like to bring in Thrun? It seems great in a lot of matchups, but not being able to recur him can be kinda daunting sometimes. Lastly, do you find yourself looking for an artifact replacement card for Ethersworn Canonist, like Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere? Or do you think the sideboard is as solid as it can be in these types of matchups. So far I really like the list and have been tuning it a little myself. Keep up the great work!

Hey,

I find that running ensnaring bridge can win you a lot game ones as they do not have any removal. Yes it is a prime abrupt decay target but easily recurred by academy runes. It also shuts down some sneak attack reanimator decks as you can usually play it turn two with an exploration or mox....or it can even be a show and tell target. Another good synergy is with worm harvest as you can choose to draw, swing with your worms, and then empty your hand again. A deck only running three maze of iths and two punishing fires sometimes just needs a way to stop the beats.

I noticed that Clifford Kumph's list ran ensnaring bridge in the side... http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displayprintdeck.php?DeckID=82025 and decided to opt for the standard crucible in the main. (SB only has thirteen cards...anyone know what else he played?)

One thing I have considered is cutting the tranquil thicket (which seems to be the trend), moving the karakas to the main, putting ensnaring bridge in the side and adding a crucible main (if you can follow that). I liked having the tranquil thicket with the enlightened tutor as you do not have to sacrifice your dredge for turn. Perhaps it is worth cutting. In my current meta there are a million surgical extractions running around. But I suppose if I had the crucible main then I would not need to hold up the thicket to save the loam...

I saw that Felix (Phelix) was running Thurn in the SB. Not really sold on him as I think Worm Harvest is enough. I can't really see what match up he would be useful coming in. Perhaps Felix can comment.

As for Ethersworn Canonist, I would not mind running a Trinisphere or a Thorn but in all honesty I would prefer another Krosan Grip. They are so strong. I find that the 4 spheres and 2 challice are sufficient. Sometimes I feel like going up to 4 Challice but then I feel like I am using up too many slots for combo. When you get a tuned decklist make sure to post. I love having more lists to compare against.

/c

Phelix

04-07-2015, 01:54 PM

decided to opt for the standard crucible in the main.

Thats standard? Why wasnt I told? :rolleyes:

In my current meta there are a million surgical extractions running around.

I imagine this leads to E-Tutor being trickier to play? since forced shuffle kinda counters it for 2 life.

I saw that Felix (Phelix) was running Thurn in the SB. Not really sold on him as I think Worm Harvest is enough. I can't really see what match up he would be useful coming in. Perhaps Felix can comment.

I played Thrun to have a card that would be useful in both the Bug and the miracles matchups. I would also board it in vs RUG, since it solves a bunch of problems for us there. Its not for every day use, and its not currenly in my board, but for that event it felt right. I already had worm harvest and a single smokestack. Sometimes going double stack is correct, but here it was not, due to the lack of miracles.

cchalc

04-07-2015, 02:42 PM

Thats standard? Why wasnt I told? :rolleyes:

What is the reason for no crucible in the main? I originally cut it because I found it redundant and too bulky. Mind you, I have not played as many games as I would like. But just on first impression I decided to cut.

Sure...'standard' is a bit of an exaggeration. However, I do find that many control lands deck lists typically run one main especially with a bunch of DRS trying to eat up LFTL.

/c

Ingo

04-07-2015, 02:51 PM

I feel reasonably prepared for most matchups, but Omni is still getting to me. ...
Is there a better singleton Gamble target for the main? Or, should I ignore G1 completely?

The best gamble target against Omni is Iona, but besides OmniTell (and possibly other S&T decks) she has no purpose, so that's kinda narrow.

One With Nothing

04-07-2015, 05:45 PM

snorlaxcom

04-07-2015, 07:15 PM

How do ya'll feel about Phyrexian Revoker? I don't see it as often as I'd like on here and MTGSalvation in lists. I've been a big fan as it comes down early, helps against a LOT of decks, and has legs for the beats. It's even got some play against combo, where a few extra bits of hate can only help. Do any of you guys have some insight on this card?

Read more posts and lists here and you'll see he is used quite often. Don't know what insight you hope to gain except for the pluses over Needle, so elaborate. He is helpful vs reanimator when they exhume a griselbrand and slows down aether vial decks. He can help compliment mana denial plan by naming drs and helps against combo decks using Petal/Mox/LED/SSG/ESG. Dazes are swapped by pierces and he blows by them. I find him most useful in painter and Tezz mu where he can conserve Grips and EE. <3 Revoker

One With Nothing

04-07-2015, 07:38 PM

Sorry I wasn't more clear. I was wondering how you felt about Revoker versus other types of hate bears like Containment Priest or Ethersworn Canonist. I see lists opt for those on occasion and I assumed it is just a local metagame choice, but was wondering if there was something I was missing because I generally feel that Revoker is generally universally better than similar options. Thanks again, Snorlax!

supremePINEAPPLE

04-07-2015, 08:14 PM

I've been playing with no Ensnaring Bridge at all for about a month now and haven't really needed it. Most decks that it's good against, aside from S&S and Reanimator, are generally easy matchups anyway. I feel most issues Bridge addresses can be just as easily handled by Engineered Explosives and careful play. I've been playing without a Tranquil Thicket nor a Crucible either, and haven't generally been punished for it. Sure, it sucks to have Loam exiled by Surgical, but most decks that play cards like Surgical or Extirpate are aggressive decks who have a bigger issue with cards like EE recursion or Punishing Fire. Either engine works well. Also, I like the addition of a Creeping Tar Pit as a backup slow kill and an all-around Abrupt Decay-proof Jace threatener. Plus, I have also found that my deck's hunger for blue mana truly is insatiable and restricts my plays to a great extent. Then again, I'm only running two Tropical Island at the moment. I'll post a list when I get home, as I'm on my cell phone right now and formatting is hard.I noticed the same thing with blue when trying lists with only 2 trops. I think part of it may be my playstyle and overly relying on tolaria west when making intuition piles and I don't have to get a specific combo online to survive. I'm just more comfortable with the lists that run 3 tropical, 1 taiga, 1 whatever your last splash color is.

How do ya'll feel about Phyrexian Revoker? I don't see it as often as I'd like on here and MTGSalvation in lists. I've been a big fan as it comes down early, helps against a LOT of decks, and has legs for the beats. It's even got some play against combo, where a few extra bits of hate can only help. Do any of you guys have some insight on this card?I run revoker for exactly the reasons you mentioned. The only reason I don't really like it is being dead against omni which is obviously a problem everyone is having with the deck as a whole at the moment. I'd love to replace it with a magical hatebear that says fuck omnitell on it and isn't white. I haven't personally had much luck with the white splash even though it's been great when I can get a canonist online with a sphere or two. That just wasn't a thing that was happening consistently or quickly enough for me in game 2's to offset the cutting of the black cards. Phelix probably plays it out quite a bit differently and I look forward to his thoughts but I just felt like I ended up treading water with the white splash rather than improving anything.

snorlaxcom

04-07-2015, 08:25 PM

His versatility makes him a good start for the sb(recouped via Academy), but depending on your color splash you can form a better g2/3 plan in conjunction with other sb cards. Some sb go more creatures (8-10) and others use less. Using Just Revokers is uncommon since removal is taken out postboard and creatures stick around longer.

Yes many of these lists are meta calls, so look at what is performing in your area or the tier of the event to help you arrange a comprehensive sb and/or color splash. Will you prepare for most prominent archetype, or just lists that place high, or try to tackle both with some sb tech for t8?

Practice. A lot.

BillyButtons

04-07-2015, 10:37 PM

I noticed that Clifford Kumph's list ran ensnaring bridge in the side... http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displayprintdeck.php?DeckID=82025 and decided to opt for the standard crucible in the main. (SB only has thirteen cards...anyone know what else he played?)

/c

Hi, that'd be me. The two missing cards in the SB were 1 Dark Depths, and 1 Thespian's Stage. I also had Glacial Chasm in the main, so a total of 61 cards. SCG really butchered my name, and my decklist, it was pretty sweet.

Phelix

04-08-2015, 01:14 AM

im not playing revokers, since they would have just 2 uses for me.

Sneak attack.
LED
(Deathrite Shaman.)
(senseis divining top)

SneakShow is not very played at the events I attend, and im doing very well in the storm combo matchups already. (Currently a 7-0 run vs storm in paper, winning game one only once)

Then there is deathrite shaman. I dont give a hoot about it in BUG since thats a very good matchup. im roughly 25-3 against that in paper without revoker, since its just such a favourable matchup where you play 61 cards vs 1-2 true name nemesis. Id love to stop it in elves, since that matchup is tricky, but i dont think revoker is my best bet there.

thats why im not playing it :)

Phelix

04-08-2015, 01:20 AM

on the white splash:

I go to and fro on it. But i do really love it. It does sometimes force me to choose between either going down to 2 trops, cutting a taiga, or something else. I currently dont run zuran orb or crucible of worlds, so i guess i could go for the full 6 duals.

Back when i didnt play karakas, (preban) the splash was trickier, but now its fine. We just need to think ahead. whenever we bord in the white cards, we dont ever want the taiga anyway, and casting intuition is usually also not going to happen (it gets boarded out in most cases) -this then means that having less blue is fine. you might even take out a tolaria west when boarding there, since CIP lands suck vs combo. Usually the focus here is to get B/W mana quick. Where blue mana is alot less important. We win with the nonland permanents here, and fancy tutoring is just too slow most of the time. The only thing we want to tutor for is chalice.

Valtrix

04-08-2015, 01:50 AM

Mana Maze for combo maybe? Its effect is similar to canonist. It can't attack, but is on color. (Also you can't ruins it, but alas...Likely awful, but I think the card is neat.)

cchalc

04-13-2015, 01:14 PM

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/156268_10101057778490454_714881354_n.jpg?oh=25dab8b1b86b7cd35e63814af90ca3af&oe=5523DD05&__gda__=1433304545_52e81e4f562c754eff2da3d1083314be

Merfolk
Tabernacle is very good against their jam a bunch of lords plan, and they can’t beat Ensnaring Bridge. On occasion, they can bury you in permission and sideboard back to basics, but it’s rare that they have permission with a formidable clock. EE lock = gg.

I have been having a lot of trouble against the merfolk player in our local meta. Funny enough there is a lot of combo decks and somehow I am managing to squeak by against them. Last week we were the top pair on two separate occasions (not surprising to see merfolk beating up on combo decks). What I thought should be a cake-walk match-up is proving to be very difficult. Early threats (TNN) and early disruption (cursecatcher and counter magic) is getting me each time. Here is a link to a poorly recorded video with no sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxE6zRgUoo (Lands vs Merfolk). Unfortunately only two games as the third was edited out for some reason.

link to game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxE6zRgUoo

G1 went okay. @44s I accidentally dropped worm harvest and we had a good laugh.
He scooped to a resolved smokestack. I had a pretty good glacial lock going. For SB: -1 karakas, -3 crop rotations, +2 krosan grip, +1 abrupt decay, +1 EE. Perhaps crop rotations is not right to side out as I want access to mazes, academy ruins, tabernacle, chasm, and grove. Actually, against a deck as aggressive as merfolk it is probably not right to side them out. Perhaps cut things like Smokestack, worm harvest, a stage... I am still pretty new to the deck so it might be a bit painful to watch the video. :)

G2 I kept based on a punishing fire + grove hand. perhaps a bit sketchy as it does not deal with TNN and hosed by wasteland.
@11min I think wasteland the mutavault would be correct to keep him off TNN ... but instead I went with library. I figured he had the vial anyways and I needed to start digging for answers.
@13:15 I went for an intuition to get academy going. unlucky force.
@16:30 my life was low and I needed a shuffle based on the last look from library. I went for the intuition to get the EE even in the face of the relic. I got EE, ensnaring bridge, and glacial chasm. I am not sure if he had wastland in hand but let's just assume he top decked it and made the choice to give me EE. Unfortunately it was too slow as he managed to resolve a lord + image copying lord. I guess a grip on the aether vial earlier might have made a difference. lots of lines and interesting game.
@22min we had a bit of a confusion as he forgot to play his wasteland and he asked to play it during my sylvan look. I let him play it but it caused too much confusion so he took it back. (This is a pretty casual game and we are all friends). Did not really matter because I did not get any gas from the look and scooped.

I have not played against death and taxes yet with this deck but I imagine it is equally bad. Karakas, + 'scumbag bird', vial tricks with flickerwisp, ports and wastelands seems so hard.

I saw this interesting 'lands-based' deck with a living wish board: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=76810 played by Chris Yarbrough. It looked appealing because of the maindeck supreme verdicts which seems like it can buy you a lot of time. I am pretty much playing lands to get away from playing FOW. :P But the wish board is something I will definitely consider. I will admit that living wish for peace keeper in that G2 I played would have been pretty sweet.

/c

snorlaxcom

04-13-2015, 04:34 PM

I have been having a lot of trouble against the merfolk player in our local meta.

Missed library activation at 13:40, but playing the waste from hand was the play for the turn to stay alive so it had no bearing on the game except some foresight for the next turn. Get into the habbit of slowing things down in you upkeep for a second or use the opponent's eot to review your upkeep because you may lose your own creatures to tabernacle or even a chasm. At 23:20 you chose to draw exploration for some reason and missed your land drop(wasteland). You could only make time for exploration the next turn and didn't set this up properly with library. 25:05 most players or even judges would call for slow play and could be worse if you had warnings earlier in the day because you eat 45 seconds before the draw step. Lots of players will call judges vs this deck if caught in that losing position or to take you out of focus, so practice picking up the pace. You should know at his eot that Academy will not work, so move on to using the pfire you know is on top. Once you look at the top 3 you scoop because you want a game 3. Understandable because I love playing vs merfolk.

Seriously though, even with you missing the waste the previous turn you still have enough mana and grove triggers to kill both lords, but now with vial tapped you have the leisure of another turn to loam, grip vial, and setup ee@3 before he gets a force.

Draw the pfire-->target the phantasm-->sacs to own trigger-->bring back pfire with one of the groves to kill the other lord. If he wastes a grove with pfire on the stack then float :r: from the targeted grove and wait for pfire to resolve and use the other grove to trigger pfire to then use the red mana floating from the wasted grove. The missed wasteland is needed here to pay for a daze common in late the game vs merfolk players on the play. With waste in play you would have a trop untapped to follow up with an exploration if daze was not played on the pfire. He should then concede on his draw step. Post another vid vs mefolk in the future if you want more tips. Good luck!

EDIT:
Would have sided out karakas, bog, ghost quarter, and worm harvest.

cchalc

04-13-2015, 05:13 PM

Missed library activation at 13:40, but playing the waste from hand was the play for the turn to stay alive so it had no bearing on the game except some foresight for the next turn. Get into the habbit of slowing things down in you upkeep for a second or use the opponent's eot to review your upkeep because you may lose your own creatures to tabernacle or even a chasm. At 23:20 you chose to draw exploration for some reason and missed your land drop(wasteland). You could only make time for exploration the next turn and didn't set this up properly with library. 25:05 most players or even judges would call for slow play and could be worse if you had warnings earlier in the day because you eat 45 seconds before the draw step. Lots of players will call judges vs this deck if caught in that losing position or to take you out of focus, so practice picking up the pace. You should know at his eot that Academy will not work, so move on to using the pfire you know is on top. Once you look at the top 3 you scoop because you want a game 3. Understandable because I love playing vs merfolk.

Seriously though, even with you missing the waste the previous turn you still have enough mana and grove triggers to kill both lords, but now with vial tapped you have another turn to loam, grip vial, and setup ee@3 before he gets a force.

Draw the pfire-->target the phantasm-->sacs to own trigger-->bring back pfire with one of the groves to kill the other lord. If he wastes a grove with pfire on the stack then float :r: from the targeted grove and wait for pfire to resolve and use the other grove to trigger pfire to then use the red mana floating from the wasted grove. The missed wasteland is needed here to pay for a daze common in late the game vs merfolk players on the play. With waste in play you would have a trop untapped to follow up with an exploration if daze was not played on the pfire. He should then concede on his draw step.

Yeah it was my first day playing with library and it definitely was not the first time missing it. Slowing it down for a sec is a good habit to get into but you are also right in the sense that if you want to win with lands you need to play in tempo. (I should know as I am also a bridge player :) )
Not sure why I drew exploration at 23:20 ... maybe I was thinking to try and get mana in play for academy ruins loop. Misplay for sure.
Yeah... I guess I did have enough to pfire both merfolk ....I must love playing merfolk as well. :) I do have to get a little better with punishing fire interactions. There is a lot of stuff happening in lands so one needs to play sharp.
Thanks for the insight! I will hopefully record some more horrendous lands matches to post up here.

/c

cchalc

04-14-2015, 07:09 PM

Hi, that'd be me. The two missing cards in the SB were 1 Dark Depths, and 1 Thespian's Stage. I also had Glacial Chasm in the main, so a total of 61 cards. SCG really butchered my name, and my decklist, it was pretty sweet.

I noticed that your deck made it to it's own category on goldfish: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-control-lands#paper

(still with the incorrect list)

/c

Phelix

04-15-2015, 10:50 AM

I noticed that your deck made it to it's own category on goldfish: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-control-lands#paper

(still with the incorrect list)

/c

Haha, that goldfish list is my 75 from Eternal Clash in January.

Phelix

04-15-2015, 10:51 AM

also i just recently broke a personal best and went 1-4 with control lands.

I didnt get a trophy.

snorlaxcom

04-15-2015, 12:01 PM

Did you not expect that much Omni and passed on the heavy hate?

BillyButtons

04-15-2015, 08:06 PM

Well, Phelix your list was absolutely what I based mine off of. Haha. Ever since we played at SCG Richmond last year, I wanted to rebuild it. I won't ever have it as pretty as yours, but hey.

Also, what is that site?

supremePINEAPPLE

04-15-2015, 08:16 PM

It's a site that aggregates winning decklists from mtgo daily events. I didn't think they tracked paper events but it looks like they are starting to now as well.

EDIT: the meta section is my favorite part, very nice to browse http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

Phelix

04-15-2015, 08:21 PM

Did you not expect that much Omni and passed on the heavy hate?

I played a trial the day before and saw almost no combo, there might have been one 1 ANT, 1 Omni in a sea of midrange and miracles.

I then faced omni twice, mono red painter once.

I didnt drop since all points carry to the end of the season, but after losing round 5 to omni i was fed up ;)

Played vintage in two events and cashed both.

My hate for omni is always limited, but for this event i cut two of the spheres for krosan grips (that ofc come in vs omni). I think i boarded something like: 2 Spheres, 2 chalices, 2 Krosan Grip, 1 Smokestack, 4 Dark Confidant.

The stack might seem odd, but with another piece of hate its a longshot way of getting there.

Sockosensei

04-19-2015, 05:03 AM

Maindeck Smokestack was awesome for me in Kyoto this weekend. It adds so much to G1 of the Miracles matchup. Considering how long G1 usually goes, it can be the deciding game. It also served me in the slower creature matchups. Opponents were surprised to face an artifact their Abrupt Decays couldn't hit and several people scooped along the highway to zero perms.

snorlaxcom

04-19-2015, 05:12 AM

Any Lands players make day 2?

Sockosensei

04-19-2015, 06:54 AM

Any Lands players make day 2?
EDIT: There was at least one Lands player who made day 2; a friend of mine faced him in rd 15.
As predicted, there was a ton of Omni, Miracles, and red-based Delver. MUD also had a noticeable presence.

GP Kyoto Tournament Report April 17-19, 2015

Leading up to the event I was worried about my OmniTell matchup. After testing more and discussing the board plan, in the end I decided not to overload on Omni hate since even if I devoted my full sideboard, it would still be a tough match-up. Instead I decided to focus on winning the creature and Miracles matchups and pray to dodge Omni. Slaughter Games was too unreliable as a singleton Gamble target so I cut it completely.

Land (33)
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
3x Green Fetch
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
2x Thespian's Stage
2x Dark Depths
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
1x Bojuka Bog
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Glacial Chasm

Non-Land (28)
3x Crop Rotation
3x Gamble
3x Intuition
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life from the Loam
4x Exploration
3x Punishing Fire
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Zuran Orb
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Smokestack

Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trinisphere
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Karakas
1x Pyroclasm
1x Toxic Deluge

My notes are sparse so most of this is from my unreliable memory. I apologize in advance to my opponents if I’ve gotten things wrong.

Rd. 1 vs. GW Armageddon 1-2
G1: He had me thinking he was Bant-Blade or maybe Maverick, and then blew me out by casting two of his four maindeck Armageddon.
G2: Quick 20/20 win.
G3: Questionable keep of P. Fire, P. Fire, Exploration, Trop, Bayou, Waste, Depths. I never found a red source or a Crop Rotation and died to Mom+Squib Ranger beatdown for 2 per turn from 20. At some key point he found his singleton Armageddon (having sided out three of them) and also wiped my yard ensuring I couldn’t come back.
0-1 in rounds

Rd. 2 vs. Junk Blade 1-0
G1: I stabilized at 7 life with Tabernacle, Loam+Waste, Ports, Mazes. There was enough mana to Loam and Tolaria West each turn as needed for the win.
G2: Smokestack left him at 0 perms as extra turns concluded.
1-1 in rounds

Rd. 3 vs. Miracles 1-0
G1: This was one of those 45-minute game 1s that we have against Miracles. Thanks to your advice after my GPT loss last month I went in with a clearer plan, aimed for Academy and EE early, and then dredged into Smokestack soon after. My opponent went for two separate but small waves of angel tokens to try to steal a quick victory while exhausting all 4 Force of Wills in keeping EE and Smokestack off the board to buy time. Maze and Punishing Fire fought off the angels. He spent all of his resources preventing Smokestack, including eventually his last 3-drop: Council’s Judgment. This meant I was free to resolve EE, Intuition, and Crucible to Ghost Quarter with double Exploration. He scooped the turn before I could finish off his permanents.
2-1 in rounds

Rd. 4 vs. UWr Delver 2-0
G1: His start is so slow that I put him on either Miracles with a terrible keep or UW midrange control. Suddenly he fetches Volcanic and Bolts me. I have Punishing Fire for his late Delver, and soon Waste-Lock him and make a 20/20.
G2: TNN goes on the solo beatdown, except that I soon establish Chasm with Zuran Orb. He can’t deal with it and finally scoops in frustration.
3-1 in rounds

Rd. 5 vs. BW Blade + heavy discard 1-2
G1: I have the stone cold nuts, and even after he strips my Intuition with a T1 Thoughtseize, it’s never close. His board is soon down to his 3 basics vs. my triple Port, Waste-lock with Exploration, and then some. He scoops with 35 mins remaining.
G2: I deal with his T1 Deathrite. Then his Hymn hits both of my relevant cards in hand, he Wastes my Mazes, and my deck completely craps out for the remainder. I die to Hero of Bladehold and Lingering Souls.
G3: I mull and keep a mediocre 6 as I’m slightly rattled after the horror show from the previous game. His T1 DRS and Aven Mindcensor carrying a Sword end me early enough that I can have a sandwich.
3-2 in rounds

Rd. 6 vs. Merfolk 0-2
G1: I keep a mana denial and exploration hand with a Maze as protection and a Grove in case I hit Punishing Fire or Gamble. I’m soon triple Porting with Wasteland backup, yet none of it matters since he’s played T1 Island→ Vial and has a free army of Lords.
G2: I have a strong start except he has the T1 Vial again. Then he casts Back to Basics, leaving me with a Forest, a Mox, Loam, and 6 tapped lands. Chasm buys me time and I eventually kill the BtB but he immediately resolves a second one and wipes my graveyard with Tormod's Crypt. My Chasm play is sloppy and I miss a trigger and need to sacrifice it, allowing a big swing, and putting me to two life. I’ve resolved a second Exploration, and I’ve been building up untapped lands. I find myself in a position where I can Loam back Depths, Chasm, and Stage, play all three and then later make Marit Lage to go for the win. He taps five islands and shows me the Force which he had just top decked and Loam goes to the graveyard without resolving.
3-3 in rounds

Rd. 7 vs. 12-Post with black for discard and Beseech the Queen. 2-0
G1: Waste-lock and Ports FTW
G2: Smokestack and Waste FTW
My opponent was a good sport about this and we shared some laughs.
4-3 in rounds

Rd. 8 vs. Miracles 1-1-1
G1: Smokestack absolutely crushes him. This is the quickest win I’ve ever had vs. Miracles that didn’t involve Marit Lage.
G2: He has the Council’s Judgment for Smokestack, counters a relevant spell or two, RIP kills my yard, and he then beats down with a single angel. I draw fetches, duals, Moxen, and Explorations for 5 turns.
G3: He has early counter-top, but then casts Blood Moon and hurts himself more than me – his only basic is a mountain – and I have a Mox in play. Smokestack resolves and eats his entire board. I would have kept it at 1 counter and essentially locked him out, except we’re going to extra turns and I need to put in on 2 counters to speed up the process of getting Blood Moon off the table. I’m not able to combo-kill him in the extras and the match ends as a draw. I don’t see any way he could have won if there had been enough time to finish the match, but he didn’t want to concede – he really wanted the draw. He then immediately dropped.
4-3-1 in rounds

Rd. 9 vs. Dark Maverick 1-0
G1: He plays GSZ for Dryad Arbor, but I Gamble for Punishing Fire to go with my Grove and flame away multiple DRS, Qasali Pridemages, and Thalia. He builds up enough mana to GSZ for Ooze and wipe my yard. We’re exhausted from the long day and having a laugh, and I forget to return Punishing Fire to hand before GSZ resolves. Ooze eats it and soon my graveyard is barren. I realize I’ve screwed up and take a crack at ending it immediately by going for Marit Lage – his one card is Swords to Plowshares. 36 life with Chasm+Stage buy me several turns until I can torch Teeg, Tolaria West for EE, kill Ooze and Thalia, and finally Tabernacle-Waste-Wrath the rest of his board, including a massive Knight of the Reliquary with Squib Ranger untap tricks. All four of his Wastelands were already expended. I nearly scooped after the Ooze and Teeg landed as I just couldn't think any longer. I'm glad I didn't.
5-3-1 in rounds

I had hoped to do better. Still, it reflects where I’m at with the deck. I’ve practiced Delver, Miracles, and Elves matchups a lot. My inexperience with other matchups showed, namely Merfolk.

The Good: Getting a rare weekend away with friends and forgetting real life. Meeting people who I only knew before from this message board. Dodging Omni. Judges handling things in multiple languages like pros. Not becoming exhausted until round 9. Not tilting after losing to Armageddon in round 1. Placing soot counters on Smokestack.

The Bad: Judges not issuing warnings to players who refuse to randomize their deck—if they can get away with it at the GP level, what incentive do they have to change? My own poor keeps. Horrific side event prize support. Thieves stealing deck boxes.

snorlaxcom

04-22-2015, 06:12 PM

Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
2x Trinisphere
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Karakas
1x Pyroclasm
1x Toxic Deluge

Was your board as helpful in as many mu? Some one-ofs and taxing effects seems obscure and not as cohesive for boarded games.

Rd. 1 vs. GW Armageddon 1-2
G1: He had me thinking he was Bant-Blade or maybe Maverick, and then blew me out by casting two of his four maindeck Armageddon.
G2: Quick 20/20 win.
G3: Questionable keep of P. Fire, P. Fire, Exploration, Trop, Bayou, Waste, Depths. I never found a red source or a Crop Rotation and died to Mom+Squib Ranger beatdown for 2 per turn from 20. At some key point he found his singleton Armageddon (having sided out three of them) and also wiped my yard ensuring I couldn’t come back.
0-1 in rounds

Hand does nothing, so ship it. On the draw you can mulligan more aggressively on the first two hands for ca engines/sb hate, but after that I just look for mana and a spell. However, I would have kept if it was a similar 5 card hand. When dealing with non-force of will decks without discard, digging for singular hate and some business can handle the job.

Rd. 3 vs. Miracles 1-0
G1: This was one of those 45-minute game 1s that we have against Miracles. Thanks to your advice after my GPT loss last month I went in with a clearer plan, aimed for Academy and EE early, and then dredged into Smokestack soon after. My opponent went for two separate but small waves of angel tokens to try to steal a quick victory while exhausting all 4 Force of Wills in keeping EE and Smokestack off the board to buy time. Maze and Punishing Fire fought off the angels. He spent all of his resources preventing Smokestack, including eventually his last 3-drop: Council’s Judgment. This meant I was free to resolve EE, Intuition, and Crucible to Ghost Quarter with double Exploration. He scooped the turn before I could finish off his permanents.

Glad this worked out.

Rd. 5 vs. BW Blade + heavy discard 1-2
G1: I have the stone cold nuts, and even after he strips my Intuition with a T1 Thoughtseize, it’s never close. His board is soon down to his 3 basics vs. my triple Port, Waste-lock with Exploration, and then some. He scoops with 35 mins remaining.
G2: I deal with his T1 Deathrite. Then his Hymn hits both of my relevant cards in hand, he Wastes my Mazes, and my deck completely craps out for the remainder. I die to Hero of Bladehold and Lingering Souls.
G3: I mull and keep a mediocre 6 as I’m slightly rattled after the horror show from the previous game. His T1 DRS and Aven Mindcensor carrying a Sword end me early enough that I can have a sandwich.

These n00b strategies are perfect for Lands. Pfire loop controls the board while you hit land drops, so keep a hand that gets a pfire going. Tabernacle/Mazes buy lots of time vs their slow clock, but drs should never be active here. Mu sounds more like luck went his way two games in a row rather than you fouling up somewhere.

Rd. 6 vs. Merfolk 0-2
G1: I keep a mana denial and exploration hand with a Maze as protection and a Grove in case I hit Punishing Fire or Gamble. I’m soon triple Porting with Wasteland backup, yet none of it matters since he’s played T1 Island→ Vial and has a free army of Lords.
G2: I have a strong start except he has the T1 Vial again. Then he casts Back to Basics, leaving me with a Forest, a Mox, Loam, and 6 tapped lands. Chasm buys me time and I eventually kill the BtB but he immediately resolves a second one and wipes my graveyard with Tormod's Crypt. My Chasm play is sloppy and I miss a trigger and need to sacrifice it, allowing a big swing, and putting me to two life. I’ve resolved a second Exploration, and I’ve been building up untapped lands. I find myself in a position where I can Loam back Depths, Chasm, and Stage, play all three and then later make Marit Lage to go for the win. He taps five islands and shows me the Force which he had just top decked and Loam goes to the graveyard without resolving.

Don't know if you practiced much before for this mu, but bring in all naturalize effects to make mana denial an actual thing and to answer their sb. We prioritize their 3 drops, so plant a EE@3. If they Needle EE, then slow roll the kgrip/decay for Needle.

Rd. 8 vs. Miracles 1-1-1
G1: Smokestack absolutely crushes him. This is the quickest win I’ve ever had vs. Miracles that didn’t involve Marit Lage.
G2: He has the Council’s Judgment for Smokestack, counters a relevant spell or two, RIP kills my yard, and he then beats down with a single angel. I draw fetches, duals, Moxen, and Explorations for 5 turns.
G3: He has early counter-top, but then casts Blood Moon and hurts himself more than me – his only basic is a mountain – and I have a Mox in play. Smokestack resolves and eats his entire board. I would have kept it at 1 counter and essentially locked him out, except we’re going to extra turns and I need to put in on 2 counters to speed up the process of getting Blood Moon off the table. I’m not able to combo-kill him in the extras and the match ends as a draw. I don’t see any way he could have won if there had been enough time to finish the match, but he didn’t want to concede – he really wanted the draw. He then immediately dropped.

Council's Judgement's casting cost makes our mana denial live. Be sure to keep them off casting it as it can win them the game if resolved on a lock piece. Bearing in mind Jace is the first priority to keep off of the board, he does little to interact with an in-play lock piece. I am used to seeing 1 md or at least in the 75. Pairs well with snapcaster in some versions, too. Don't know what game ate the clock, but that is a real issue in this mu as you can tell by now.

Like I had in my first gp, you were gifted with very winnable matchups that were primed for Lands. I had little experience my first gp and went 5-0-4. Make day 2 the second time out!

Sockosensei

04-23-2015, 07:27 PM

All good points. Thanks, Snorlaxcom.

Re: round 8 tie vs Miracles:
We had a judge call in G1 which took about 8 mins as my opponent altered the board state (fetched and shuffled, changing the top three cards for Counterbalance) right in the middle of the judges resolving the issue. We were given 3 mins of additional time.
G2 I kept a Smokestack hand and went for it immediately rather than allowing him to set up CB-Top first. He had the Council's Judgment in hand and played it before I could do any Porting. I don't know if this was correct, but I wanted to force him to have it. He did.

The organizers were quick to begin each round. Even getting to my seat immediately and handling all shuffling as quickly as possible, most of my rounds actually began at the 48 minute mark. I had pile-sleeve checking and de-sideboarding done in advance. I'm not sure what else to do here.

Re: round 5 loss to BW Blade
I agree it did feel that way. It surprised me that he left in all of his discard post-board, but it worked out well for him.

Re: round 6 loss to Merfolk
I don't have much experience in the matchup at all. My friends don't play the deck and I rarely face it at events. When I have faced it in the past, I've been able to Chasm-lock until I could dig for the win. This was my first time facing Back to Basics and it blew me out. Even still, if I hadn't been sloppy with the Chasm trigger, I probably would have won game 2 as I was set to make a 20/20 and my opponent was playing from the top of his deck.

As for the sideboard, I was reasonably happy with it. Toxic Deluge and Pyroclasm were solid. Karakas was never needed. I also had the Gambles to find hate pieces. Omni's just huge here now and I'll probably run Canonists moving forward.

I agree that the matchups were mostly favorable. I wasn't able to take advantage. With more practice, next GP I will be ready.

baboontilt

04-25-2015, 10:52 PM

I split the top 4 of a smaller local Mox tournament today, got 1/4 of a Pearl and $90 store credit. My list

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Exploration
4 Life From the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
2 Manabond

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
3 G Fetch
3 Dark Depths
2 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

SB
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Choke
1 Chalice
1 Seismic Assault
1 Primeval Titan
1 Pithing Needle
1 Zuran Orb

A rather brief report as I took no notes:

Round 1: LOSS vs. Miracles
We had a very long g1 and he was able to finally establish Countertop + Jace with about 10 minutes left in the round. He answered 5 Marit Lage tokens this game, and in the following game I wasn't able to combo him before running out of time.

Round 2: WIN vs. Miracles
He made several mistakes throughout the match, and my draws were excellent. Choke + Port did it's thing post-board.

Round 3: WIN vs. Death & Taxes
Game 1 I establish Tabernacle + Grove/Fire, and although he gets me down to 9 I have 2 Mazes for his Serra Avengers and eventually grind him out. Game 2 he makes a sequencing error: he has Mangara + Wasteland, I have a pile of lands that include Stage/Depths and Wasteland. He opts to Mangara my DD instead of wasting it, and in response I waste his waste and combo him.

Round 4: DRAW vs. Miracles
We have a 40-minute game 1 in which neither player is clearly ahead. Extremely late into the game she assemble Sword/Thopter with Countertop backup, and I scoop with 10 minutes on the clock. Game 2 I keep a hand of 2x Grip, Depths, Mox, Choke, random lands. My first and second draws are Grips 3 and 4, and in the first 5 or 6 turns I Grip 3 tops and a Counterbalance. I Establish Choke + Port, and am able to protect a Marit Lage in turns.

Round 5: WIN vs. Miracles
At least I'm getting used to the matchup by now. I call it Miracles, but it was much worse for me as he is playing MD RiP + Energy Field combo. Game 1 is long, and eventually he locks me out of Loams and Tutors for the combo. Games 2 & 3 Choke + Port win again.

Top 8: WIN vs. Elves
Game 1 I keep a decent hand with 2x Grove and a Crop Rotation, and my first draw is Punishing Fire. Game 2 he gets DRS and Scavenging Ooze into play and is aggressively attacking my graveyard. At some point I crop rotate into the combo. I kept an extremely loose hand this game, interested in thoughts on it:

On the Draw, I kept:
3x Mox Diamond
Ghost Quarter
Loam
Punishing Fire
Crop Rotation

My first draw is a land, and I proceed to go nuts.

TOP 4: ID
At this point, the top 4 is myself, 2 miracles players (round 1 & round 4 opponents), and a storm player. I propose a prize split, and after some negotiation as to how to split the Mox, we each leave with our prize.

A couple thoughts on the list:
* I think not having both Bog and Karakas main in an open field is a mistake when you're running 8 tutors.
* Having both Seismic and Primeval felt unnecessary, I'd rather cut one for something else.
* I've seen a few people running Smokestack and Worm Harvest, which sounds like something I want to do if I keep playing in such a Miracles-infested meta.
* I don't happen to have a 4th Depths for the board, but I'm not sure I'd even want it.
* 2 Choke felt excellent. Obviously I played against miracles all day, but it was instrumental in defeating them.
* Would a board with Bobs + Rabblemasters be lunacy?

supremePINEAPPLE

04-26-2015, 01:39 AM

You want this thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29193-Deck-R-G-Combo-Lands/.

Good report though. A lot of your thoughts at the end are things that are often a part of RUGx lands like Bob in the board and smokestack and worm harvest to tilt the Miracles match in Lands favor. It's worth trying a list from this thread if you have the cards.

snorlaxcom

04-26-2015, 05:28 PM

Top 8: WIN vs. Elves
Game 1 I keep a decent hand with 2x Grove and a Crop Rotation, and my first draw is Punishing Fire. Game 2 he gets DRS and Scavenging Ooze into play and is aggressively attacking my graveyard. At some point I crop rotate into the combo. I kept an extremely loose hand this game, interested in thoughts on it:

On the Draw, I kept:
3x Mox Diamond
Ghost Quarter
Loam
Punishing Fire
Crop Rotation

My first draw is a land, and I proceed to go nuts.

Having 34/53(52) outs for 2 draw steps are fine odds to me, but I've had many games where I didn't rip a land as well as our very own OneBigSquirrelGod vs Caleb Durward (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/120624_detroit.html) for the finals of an SCG Open. You do have g3 on the play to fall back on, so you can be a bit more ambitious with your starting hands if you won g1.

* Would a board with Bobs + Rabblemasters be lunacy?

Vs Miracles it could be fine since you played it 4 times in one event.

The link above me or in the first post will take you to the RG thread if you want more specific options.

nolink

04-28-2015, 04:47 AM

Hi all~

I'm surprised that there are others managing to play @ GP Kyoto 2015 this time round. I almost couldn't get a ticket for the event.

Also a control lands player here And here is my list:

Lands (43)
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
4 grove of burnwillows
3 maze of ith
3 tranquil thicket
1 misty rainforest
1 wooded foothills
1 verdent catacombs
2 tropical island
2 taiga
1 Forest
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 glacial chasm
4 thespian stage
3 dark depths
3 tolaria west
1 riftstone portal
1 ghost quarter
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 academy ruins

Other spells (22)
4 exploration
4 Mox diamond
4 life from the loam
4 crop rotation
1 chalice of the void
1 sensei's divining top
1 engineered explosives
3 punishing fire

Sideboard (15)
1 tormod's crypt
1 zuran orb
3 chalice of the void
2 pithing needle
1 trinisphere
4 krosan grip
1 crucible of World's
1 batterskull

Kyoto is really a wonderful place to play magic, rich culture and good peaceful environment to enjoy the spring season weather

Gladly I had 2 round byes to slowly crawl out of bed and start the player's meeting @ 1130am

3rd round (2-0 byes) - opponent UR delver
G1 - I led with a god hand at turn 3 Lage.
G2 - opponent led with 2 swiftspears and a barrage of permission + burns. Nuff said.
G3 - opponent kept a 1 land hand and started with turn 1 delver, which flipped the very next upkeep. I led with quite an impressive 1st turn Mox + exploration + loam hand But without combo pieces to finish off. luckily opponent brainstorm, ponder + shuffle, brainstorm, and find no lands. He casted another delver, which revealed a price of progress. After turns of dredging I finally found the combo pieces I need, lay the lands and have enough Mana to marit Lage end step. My opponent on his turn move on to discard phase and go to discard. I said OK but wanted to stop him thereafter but was late. It resulted in a judge call. ended up I succumbed to my scrub mistake and might be killed by a price of progress. Luckily opponent didn't peel. =O
End of round 3 - (3-0)

4th round (3-0) - merfolk
G1 - turn 4 lageee
G2 - turn 3 lageee

5th round (4-0) - BUG delver
G1 - me decimating his Manabase. He did really little.
G2 - turn 1 DRS. Turn 2 2 DRS. I'm so dead.
G3 - same thing as game 2

6th round (4-1) - Jund
Couldn't remember much but close game of 3 with me winning at 2-1

7th round (5-1) - forgot the matchup but won

8th round (6-1) - show and tell
G1 - played a 28min game with my opponent judge calling me graveyard order manipulation (he's a scumbag. I didn't appeal for the judge call) won with lage with 1 warning.
G2 - he kept a turn 2 show and tell emrakul hand.
G3 - I kept a controllish hand with lots of Mana denial and tapped down him for a lot of turns. He still end up getting 3 Mana untap at main phase for show and tell.

9th round (6-2) - show and tell + countertop hybrid
G1 - I got a quick win (still took 20mins) as my opponent kept topping but found nothing.
G2 - I got 1st turn surgical dark depths after I discard with Mox diamond and wanting to cast life from the loam and recur it =/
G3 - a stalemate of him having no countertop and no show and tell wins, only backed with cunning wish trickbind and karakas. I can recur marit Lage multiple times but we are at our last 5 turns. no one budge and we ended up drawing the game =/

End of 9th round (6-2-1)

any legacy Gp in japan should be a good one as I'm really impressed by their organisation efforts, efficiency in firing off super Sunday series, side events of all formats, and the amount of people playing legacy in japan is able to support such size of events. (I came from Singapore, which only have a legacy attendance of around 15-20 on weekly events.

Narrowly missed day 2, but had a good time touring Kyoto on day 2. =)

And yes. 65 card mainboard list works.

Anen

04-28-2015, 05:32 AM

Hi all~
And yes. 65 card mainboard list works.

I am more suprised by the lack of tutors in your list, and the untutorable 1-of MD Sensei Top/SB 3S.
Can you write more about this? :)

nolink

04-28-2015, 06:27 AM

I am more suprised by the lack of tutors in your list, and the untutorable 1-of MD Sensei Top/SB 3S.
Can you write more about this? :)

1. Lack of tutors - Often i found myself at the backend of being vulnerable to various kinds of counterspells mainboard, which above average players could know how to play against a lands deck - ignore the life from the loam and just counter the tutor. it happened really often for me since the 2010-2012 era where lands deck transformed from a full control RG list to adding blue for academy ruins, intuition, and followed by enlightened tutor. Thus the cut of tutors to strictly 4 crop rotation only and 3 tolaria wests.

2. had been fitting 1x Sensei top since the enlightened tutor build and it does wonders. i replaced 1 thicket with it since then. keeping a mana-free option to save loam helps. and in any case i started with it in a weak hand, i will tend to keep with it too.

3. Sideboard trinisphere is just a suggestion by my friend right before i submit my sideboard. it used to be +3 true name nemesis, -2 pithing needle, -1 trinisphere as additional fodder to feed the terminus from miracles (had really bad matchup records against them preboard and post board).

hope it helps.

i do won a couple of 8-mans side event with the same list too. =)

Anen

04-28-2015, 07:08 AM

nolink

04-28-2015, 07:19 AM

1. If you play your tutors as an emergency button, they always end up countered. The strategy is to plan in advance and play them while the battlefield is threat less. Moreover with only 4 loams, some games must slip through your hands by missing the named Loam.
2. Opponents will counter Top if they can, the same as tutors. However Top doesn't dig like tutors. I played a couple months with Forbidden Alchemy instead of Intuition and I can assure you that you will lose games because you have a card that digs for 3/4/5 instead of your all deck. I like Top as a complement of Tutors, not as replacement.
3. Miracles is grindy I agree. However I never felt the need of TNN. Nor to devote such specific answers in my SB. Thalia, Batterskull, Geist, Bob, all seems decent vs. Miracles and other MUs. What does TNN brings vs. non-Miracles MU?

1. i dont have the luxury to always have a tapped out opponent without force of will. so i will rather only have 1 CMC tutors. yes i would say without loam it doesnt work that well against some matchups. i will love to try some resilient tutors like tolaria west that could tutor loam. another transmute for 2 could work.

2. surprisingly, i hardly got my top countered after they see a taiga + SDT turn 1. with 4 crop rotation + 3 tolaria west + 3 fetches i have a good chance to shuffle and top. having intuition and the other likes of tutor really does greatly improve the creature based matchups. but aren't the deck already quite well equipped against those?

3. As per stated, they're there to combat opposing planeswalkers (jace2) and overload the removal package. some playtest games end with me casting TNN and beatdown backed by mana denial package.

Anen

04-28-2015, 07:36 AM

3. As per stated, they're there to combat opposing planeswalkers (jace2) and overload the removal package. some playtest games end with me casting TNN and beatdown backed by mana denial package.
I am still not sold on TNN in non-Miracles MU. I play a 12+ creatures sideboard, so I know what you mean by overloading the removal package.

snorlaxcom

04-28-2015, 08:46 AM

That land count is quite the throwback. Would have liked to have read more, but rnd 9 opp scummed you :mad:.

nolink

04-28-2015, 08:56 AM

I am still not sold on TNN in non-Miracles MU. I play a 12+ creatures sideboard, so I know what you mean by overloading the removal package.

haha, you could share your list in this case. :tongue:

nolink

04-28-2015, 09:37 AM

That land count is quite the throwback. Would have liked to have read more, but rnd 9 opp scummed you :mad:.

The real scum is the round 8 opponent. who would have called this kind of judge call knowing what deck i play? that guy is an asshole.

supremePINEAPPLE

04-28-2015, 10:27 AM

The real scum is the round 8 opponent. who would have called this kind of judge call knowing what deck i play? that guy is an asshole.Definitely, the only deck those rules actually affect is manaless dredge right? I'm always really deliberate about it for exactly the reason you faced though. Such an annoying thing to a get judge called over for.

nolink

04-28-2015, 10:54 AM

Definitely, the only deck those rules actually affect is manaless dredge right? I'm always really deliberate about it for exactly the reason you faced though. Such an annoying thing to a get judge called over for.

technically i could've played ashen ghoul in the format.

but as per some judge calls are made, the final decision of the level of infringement is due to the ability for you to cheat from the judge call. in my case, i couldnt have cheated from manipulating my graveyard order. what i did is only to shortlist the lands that i wanted to target with life from the loam.

Well, that loss is one worthy one, to look at the true colors of some nasty japanese players.

snorlaxcom

04-28-2015, 05:29 PM

Well, that loss is one worthy one, to look at the true colors of some nasty japanese players.

Being that deep into day 1 while in contention for day 2 you will find many players call judges for warnings or game losses. In my experience, regardless of the format, the average gp level grinder will usually resort to these tactics. It is how they get "casuals" looking for a good game who have forgone proper procedure. A judge will be on your side if you are genuine, but the grinder knows the judge has to issue at least a warning. Be vigilant at premier level events because you can call a judge for unsportsmanlike conduct on your opp.

Phelix

05-03-2015, 06:26 AM

Played at Ovino in Milan yesterday. Finished 5-2-1. This included a draw to a bug player with 0 permanents, and a loss to a tezzerator player who tried to let me have the win after we were 1-1, but he thought the match was over and signed the slip 2-0 and tried to walk away....I asked him about game 3 and he beat me...he was paired up against me and dream crushed me ;)

Finished 30th.

Overall felt confidant with my strange build in an incredibly miracles infested meta game.

I cut white, played 1 chalice main. No Zuran orb, no chasm.

This board:

2 chalice of the void
2 choke (yes I play two tropicals)
4 dark confidant
4 sphere of resistance
3 krosan grip.

Matches:
Miracles won(teammate Tomas Vlček)
Miracles lost
Maverick won
Goblins won
Bug draw
12post, mono green. won
Tezzerator lost
r/g lands won.

No real report comming :)

nolink

05-06-2015, 02:47 PM

Good Day to All,

Where i am situated we have weekly wednesday legacy night.

Used the same 75 in GP to play today and here's the matchup.

Match No.1 - 0-1 Miracles
R1 - got soft locked after getting countered twice of crop rotation. almost went through though.
R2 - Was half drunk while playing the game, wasn't concentrating. got clocked by a snapcaster and angel tokens with active thespian stage to copy maze of ith. FML.

Match No.2 - 1-1 Junk (DRS, Confidant, Abrupt decay, etc.)
R1 - Got clocked by opponent with DRS, Confidant and discards (Still having abit of hangover)
R2 - Softlock the opponent out of contention (2 rishadan port + 2 thespian stage copied port + tabernacle)
R3 - opponent was careless to discard (liliana) swords to plowshare when i have a crop rotation in hand and 1 thespian stage in play.

Match No.3 - 2-1 Belcher
R1 - Opponent is shop owner, we knew our matchup inside out. he start with a storm 6 empty the warrens. i show him the crop rotation (tabernacle)
R2 - He went the belcher route and shot me for 5 cards till he reach taiga. I struggle for a few more turns without finding wincons or protection.
R3 - started with exploration + pithing needle for belcher. he started with 3 burning wishes. i still have crop rotation in hand for protection. proceed to draw another after he burning wish for shattering spree. ended up comboing

Match No.4 - 3-1 Merfolk
R1 - Naturally draw into turn 4 combo
R2 - Turn 3 combo met with echoing truth. he's clocking me with cursecatcher and lord of atlantis. have the tutor piece and chasm to delay till i combo off. he tried to cast vendilion clique with cavern of souls that named merfolk (casted lord of atlantis on turn 2 with 2 caverns)

Arksz

05-06-2015, 03:15 PM

Anen

05-06-2015, 06:04 PM

Personally I am having a hard time with the Miracles matchup. Unfortunately I just do not have a good pilot to practice / grind games with. I did have an idea though, what about side boarding in Boseiju, Who Shelters All? It fits our land theme, can be tutored/recurred and means we can never be locked off loam. Miracles doesn't really pressure our health total so it might buy enough time to run them over.

Also curious as to how it works with the spheres. Since everything costs one extra colorless, if I were to use boseiju with to cast a crop rotation or gamble for two mana, would it be uncounertable?

--- Sorry meant to post this in the R/G lands thread but would value everyones opinion here too.

Boseiju is a good way to kill yourself vs. Miracles. You will throw away ten life, then you will be surprise by a single Angel token.. You definitely don't need it. Consider EE and Academy as your best weapons.

nolink

05-07-2015, 05:40 AM

Personally I am having a hard time with the Miracles matchup. Unfortunately I just do not have a good pilot to practice / grind games with. I did have an idea though, what about side boarding in Boseiju, Who Shelters All? It fits our land theme, can be tutored/recurred and means we can never be locked off loam. Miracles doesn't really pressure our health total so it might buy enough time to run them over.

Also curious as to how it works with the spheres. Since everything costs one extra colorless, if I were to use boseiju with to cast a crop rotation or gamble for two mana, would it be uncounertable?

--- Sorry meant to post this in the R/G lands thread but would value everyones opinion here too.

am not running sphere of resistance on the board or main. but will try one copy of boseju for playtest next week. see how it goes for uncounterable life from the loam then (and punishing fire). considering i ran 3 tolaria west, 4 crop rotation and 3 maze of ith, it is 10 outs to a single angel token, fairly reasonable.

it might incidentally help the matchup against bug delver too.

open to more suggestions. im testing every wednesday in weekly tournaments.

Anen

05-07-2015, 06:50 AM

am not running sphere of resistance on the board or main. but will try one copy of boseju for playtest next week. see how it goes for uncounterable life from the loam then (and punishing fire). considering i ran 3 tolaria west, 4 crop rotation and 3 maze of ith, it is 10 outs to a single angel token, fairly reasonable.

it might incidentally help the matchup against bug delver too.

open to more suggestions. im testing every wednesday in weekly tournaments.

Boseiju is meant to be used as a one shot (Scapeshift, SnT, ..). If you are using it every turn over multiple turns, you are doing it wrong.

nolink

05-07-2015, 07:29 AM

Boseiju is meant to be used as a one shot (Scapeshift, SnT, ..). If you are using it every turn over multiple turns, you are doing it wrong.

I'm open to testing. Resolving a couple of life from the loam recurring combo pieces does break the card advantage they generate from counterbalance.

My meta is a 20-25 man attendence with average 5-6 miracles player. I guess testing boseju for a couple of events won't hurt.

nolink

05-07-2015, 07:31 AM

haha, you could share your list in this case. :tongue:

Bro. Still waiting for Ur 12 creature sideboard list BTW
:tongue:

supremePINEAPPLE

05-07-2015, 10:56 AM

My meta is a 20-25 man attendence with average 5-6 miracles player. I guess testing boseju for a couple of events won't hurt.Have you tried out a smokestack and worm harvest build? I've had a lot of success against miracles using that style of deck. Having to deal with those cards in addition to the normal Lands engine really strains miracles and leads to very long game 1s where Lands can steal the inevitability back from miracles.

Phelix

05-07-2015, 01:29 PM

My list is favored against miracles. So tis possible. it does kind of weaken us in other areas.

Phelix

05-07-2015, 01:37 PM

list:
1 ensnaring bridge
1 chalice of the void
2 engineered explosives
2 smokestack
4 mox diamond

4 exploration
3 crop rotation
3 intuition
4 life from the loam
2 punishing fire
1 worm harvest
1 sylvan library

3 grove of the burnwillows
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 maze of ith
3 fetchlands
2 tolaria west
2 thespians stage
2 tropical island
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 forest
1 the tabernacle
1 bojuka bog
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 dark depths
1 academy ruins
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

0:
savannah
zuran orb
glacial chasm

Sideboard:
4 sphere of resistance
4 dark confidant
2 chalice of the void
3 krosan grip
2 choke

BOLD: miracle specific choices.

supremePINEAPPLE

05-07-2015, 01:59 PM

nolink

05-07-2015, 02:48 PM

Have you tried out a smokestack and worm harvest build? I've had a lot of success against miracles using that style of deck. Having to deal with those cards in addition to the normal Lands engine really strains miracles and leads to very long game 1s where Lands can steal the inevitability back from miracles.

in the case of having MB smokestack + worm harvest,

1. Worm harvest doesn't race a end step entreat that well. On paper it doesn't make sense to pay 5 Mana, open urself into a counterspell deck, and hoping Ur draws will outlast their card selection from top, ponder and brainstorm
2. Once game 1 they saw Ur worm harvest, they won't side out force of will against u
3. I dislike the fact whereby we are playing a land centric deck with very few spells. So, other than life from the loam, they will just counter whichever spell we play. I can't reliably cast smokestack without being countered. (Turn 4 they'll usually have 2-4 untap lands with top)

Phelix

05-07-2015, 02:49 PM

Yep, I've been running a list based on yours but still messing with the white splash a bit. Only have had the chance to play omni twice with it but I'm 1-1 so far. It did feel like I was doing things though which is a positive change in the matchup for me. No Dark Confidant is pretty lame but I just haven't been comfortable running them alongside white cards.

MD
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Ensnaring Bridge
- 1 Bayou
- 1 Grove of the Burnwillows

+ 1 Crucible of Worlds
+ 1 Glacial Chasm
+ 1 Tropical Island
+ 1 Savannah

SB
- 4 Dark Confidant
- 2 Chalice of the Void
- 1 Krosan Grip
- 2 Choke

+ 1 Ensnaring Bridge
+ 1 Zuran Orb
+ 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+ 1 Containment Priest
+ 3 Ethersworn Canonist
+ 2 Pyroblast

As omni and not storm combo has become the feared combodeck, I just dont feel like i get the mileage i need out of my white cards. And the chalices that are bad against omni (yes they hit a bunch of stuff, but doesnt prevent wins) are good against miracles. (topdeck miracles is a horrible deck). Thats why i swapped. Choke works for both matchups, and paired with rishadan port is very strong.

I have never played pyroblasts. Im not sure countermagic vs the countermagicdeck is the way to go, particularly when you are looking to stick a chalice 1.

Phelix

05-07-2015, 03:04 PM

in the case of having MB smokestack + worm harvest,

1. When they already won, i cant win
2. my wincondition is bad because they have counterspells
3. I dont liket the fact that we dont have alot of spells since they have alot of counterspells

Thats how i saw it.

Not sure how to start responding. alot of wrongness and I dont want to come across as more of a dick than I generally do.

supremePINEAPPLE

05-07-2015, 03:11 PM

As omni and not storm combo has become the feared combodeck, I just dont feel like i get the mileage i need out of my white cards. And the chalices that are bad against omni (yes they hit a bunch of stuff, but doesnt prevent wins) are good against miracles. (topdeck miracles is a horrible deck). Thats why i swapped. Choke works for both matchups, and paired with rishadan port is very strong.

I have never played pyroblasts. Im not sure countermagic vs the countermagicdeck is the way to go, particularly when you are looking to stick a chalice 1.Yeah the pyros have only been nice because they were completely unexpected by the opponent out of Lands. One of the game wins against omni they just rushed to cast show and tell and I got to do the fun play of put in canonist and then blast omniscience without any resistance. They have done enough to at least keep me interested in testing them a bit but I can definitely see additional chalices just being way better in general.

EDIT: I've been really shy about running choke in blue builds but I might give that a shot as well since it is so nice against both miracles and omni.

supremePINEAPPLE

05-07-2015, 03:44 PM

in the case of having MB smokestack + worm harvest,

1. Worm harvest doesn't race a end step entreat that well. On paper it doesn't make sense to pay 5 Mana, open urself into a counterspell deck, and hoping Ur draws will outlast their card selection from top, ponder and brainstorm
2. Once game 1 they saw Ur worm harvest, they won't side out force of will against u
3. I dislike the fact whereby we are playing a land centric deck with very few spells. So, other than life from the loam, they will just counter whichever spell we play. I can't reliably cast smokestack without being countered. (Turn 4 they'll usually have 2-4 untap lands with top)Here's my take point by point.

1. Worm harvest is not about racing entreat at all but rather a consistent source of pressure that they have to counter or terminus every turn for the rest of the game. It just gets dumped into the yard at some point and then they have to start dealing with it.
2. Sounds good to me, force of will my worm harvest all you like (smokestack too because of academy ruins).
3. Like the previous point, both stack and harvest can be recurred so you should eventually be able to force whatever you are trying to cast through (unless they can CB it obviously). If they do have you CB locked off of the expensive stuff you can usually find openings for loam and punishing fire to do their thing. Keep in mind that you are porting them down and trying to cast punishing fire and all of the other normal lands plays that they also have to interact with.

Please correct me if I'm way off Phelix.

Dosferra

05-07-2015, 04:00 PM

in the case of having MB smokestack + worm harvest,

1. Worm harvest doesn't race a end step entreat that well. On paper it doesn't make sense to pay 5 Mana, open urself into a counterspell deck, and hoping Ur draws will outlast their card selection from top, ponder and brainstorm
2. Once game 1 they saw Ur worm harvest, they won't side out force of will against u
3. I dislike the fact whereby we are playing a land centric deck with very few spells. So, other than life from the loam, they will just counter whichever spell we play. I can't reliably cast smokestack without being countered. (Turn 4 they'll usually have 2-4 untap lands with top)

From my own experience vs. Miracles, I find that game 1 is always favoured for RUG Lands no matter what build you bring, simply because of EE+ruins, it trumps everything they can do (CB, Jace, Angels). Worm Harvest would make it very favoured, they need to either Entreat asap or have CounterTop+floating FoW.
A resolved Intuition is about the equivalent or better than them going T1 Top, T2 CB, T4 Jace.
They have a real problem with a resolved Crucible in conjunction with GQ or the combo as well.

Post board is anything between still favoured to very unfavoured, depending on the amount of RIPs and Blood Moons they bring in.

Of course if they actually counter everything you do and then (a big) Entreat, well I guess there is not so much you can do about that, but that’s not how the majority of games play out.

Anen

05-07-2015, 05:56 PM

Bro. Still waiting for Ur 12 creature sideboard list BTW
:tongue:
4 Dark confidant
3 Thalia
3 Canonist
2 Priest
3 Grip

From my own experience vs. Miracles, I find that game 1 is always favoured for RUG Lands no matter what build you bring, simply because of EE+ruins, it trumps everything they can do (CB, Jace, Angels).

I can't agree more.

nolink

05-08-2015, 12:53 AM

Thats how i saw it.

Not sure how to start responding. alot of wrongness and I dont want to come across as more of a dick than I generally do.

Noted.

Well I'm always overworried in miracles matchup:laugh:

Perhaps will try in conjunction with boseju

nolink

05-08-2015, 12:55 AM

From my own experience vs. Miracles, I find that game 1 is always favoured for RUG Lands no matter what build you bring, simply because of EE+ruins, it trumps everything they can do (CB, Jace, Angels). Worm Harvest would make it very favoured, they need to either Entreat asap or have CounterTop+floating FoW.
A resolved Intuition is about the equivalent or better than them going T1 Top, T2 CB, T4 Jace.
They have a real problem with a resolved Crucible in conjunction with GQ or the combo as well.

Post board is anything between still favoured to very unfavoured, depending on the amount of RIPs and Blood Moons they bring in.

Of course if they actually counter everything you do and then (a big) Entreat, well I guess there is not so much you can do about that, but that’s not how the majority of games play out.

Unfortunately for me that's how alot of my games go. I'm playing against most of the 4 ponder miracles built.

nolink

05-08-2015, 12:57 AM

4 Dark confidant
3 Thalia
3 Canonist
2 Priest
3 Grip

I can't agree more.

With or without bojuka bog in main? just curious if zero graveyard hate works on case by case basis in different meta.

Phelix

05-08-2015, 01:05 AM

Post board is anything between still favoured to very unfavoured, depending on the amount of RIPs and Blood Moons they bring in.

This depends so much on your build. And as you say theirs. I often mistakenly assume that everyone is playing the latest miracle list ;)

I expect a maximum of 1 Rip, and 0-1 moons.

Further, running my build gives so many haymakers and lets us play well without the yard. The important thing to realize is that they very much are the beatdown after boarding, as they should be boarding out several swords to plowshares and all terminus. while bringing in cliques to go on the beatdown.
*

Im favored pre and post board in either case

Phelix

05-08-2015, 01:47 AM

Unfortunately for me that's how alot of my games go. I'm playing against most of the 4 ponder miracles built.

cmon. math is pretty clear, we are fine here. if you lose more games than you win, it isnt the deck

Anen

05-08-2015, 05:23 AM

With or without bojuka bog in main? just curious if zero graveyard hate works on case by case basis in different meta.

With.

snorlaxcom

05-08-2015, 05:53 PM

Noted.

Well I'm always overworried in miracles matchup:laugh:

Perhaps will try in conjunction with boseju

Seems fine powering out wormharvest after you had mulitple loams countered. If you run urborg then you can ignore lifeloss, but you shouldn't be that tight on mana to have to keep paying 2 life otherwise.

nolink

05-09-2015, 12:34 AM

cmon. math is pretty clear, we are fine here. if you lose more games than you win, it isnt the deck

Plain unlucky then. Sometimes just don't get what I need to draw against matchups like miracles. My built wasn't consistent enough.

nolink

05-09-2015, 12:35 AM

Seems fine powering out wormharvest after you had mulitple loams countered. If you run urborg then you can ignore lifeloss, but you shouldn't be that tight on mana to have to keep paying 2 life otherwise.

not playing black for the moment. Only have riftstone portal

Phelix

05-09-2015, 08:02 AM

if you are not playing black, then frankly you are playing a suboptimal build, and losing the matchup could be down to just that, a worse matchup than the one im hinting to.

the way you play in the matchup is also critical.

FatPow2

05-09-2015, 09:04 PM

Anen

05-10-2015, 06:58 AM

Hey y'all so, I've never wastelanded anyone and I've never loamed before... but I have played against lands a lot and I've watched people stream lands.

I've got an idea/question:

Lands seems to dominate many fair matchups, but flop against combo decks. Why not even the maindeck out to be slightly worse against fair decks but much better against combo decks?
I was thinking to add in a GSZ package: 4 GSZ, 1 Azusa, 1-2 Gaddock Teeg, 3-4 Sylvan Safekeeper. The safekeeper even prevents Teeg from being Karakas'd, imagine the frustration of the miracles players. This would play along a dark depths win package, since the marit lage will be protected as well.

Sounds good, in a whole different deck. You can't recur creatures with loam and the point of this deck is to blank removal, at least g1. Safekeeper would do that, but he has a really low impact of the battlefield by itself and he's only good in very conditional situations.
Marit Lage is already well protected by Indestructible + Wasteland/Port.

Ancestral

05-17-2015, 04:15 PM

snorlaxcom

05-17-2015, 10:33 PM

well i look a bit in this thread and you seem belive that miracles matchup is good for lands...really ? i played lands a few months before on and off, but overall i play miracles for over 3 years, and i found that the matchup is pretty good for miracles, hard to mess with miracles mana, and counterbalance completly destroy us.

^ You probably need to be more proficient with lands if you think that way. The matchup is very tight and small mistakes can compound. The mu demands the most practice from muligans, sb plans, playing without a fastbond in play, etc. We draw dead lands, but they also draw lots of blanks.

i have a great will to play lands agains, becuase, its the deck i have most fun with for sure, but in meta wich top decks are miracles and omni tell, i found lands pretty week now. any ideas to fight this 2 matchups ?

If your meta is miracles then md Crucible(allows marit lage without ever resolving a spell and ghost quarter white sources), 3ee, try a smokestack, and (if you really want to) include Boseiju. You could also up the stage count past two to make more Ports. Each lands player here addresses this mu a bit differently g2/3. What colors do you like to splash? There are effective options in every color, but play style and versatility sway a deck's construction. Conventional card choices are explained in the primer, so read that first.

EE lock miracles off of counterbalance and wincons. Grip tops and RiP. Their creature spells with flash won't kill us. Mana denial throws a big wrench in their plans and they have to hit land drops each turn.

Omni is all about sb taxing effects + port + a clock. However, some don't even address Omni aside from dodging it. You could go balls to the walls and jam more combo pieces to swing for 20, but you might as well play RG at that point. Every major event I side tranny sphere in and it gets me the w.

Ancestral

05-18-2015, 03:57 PM

^ You probably need to be more proficient with lands if you think that way. The matchup is very tight and small mistakes can compound. The mu demands the most practice from muligans, sb plans, playing without a fastbond in play, etc. We draw dead lands, but they also draw lots of blanks.

If your meta is miracles then md Crucible(allows marit lage without ever resolving a spell and ghost quarter white sources), 3ee, try a smokestack, and (if you really want to) include Boseiju. You could also up the stage count past two to make more Ports. Each lands player here addresses this mu a bit differently g2/3. What colors do you like to splash? There are effective options in every color, but play style and versatility sway a deck's construction. Conventional card choices are explained in the primer, so read that first.

EE lock miracles off of counterbalance and wincons. Grip tops and RiP. Their creature spells with flash won't kill us. Mana denial throws a big wrench in their plans and they have to hit land drops each turn.

Omni is all about sb taxing effects + port + a clock. However, some don't even address Omni aside from dodging it. You could go balls to the walls and jam more combo pieces to swing for 20, but you might as well play RG at that point. Every major event I side tranny sphere in and it gets me the w.

well instead of this withe splash ( i ll let it in the post because i think its viable ) you can play the normal RUGb with tarpit, urborg, ravens crime and add slaughter games to sideboard, what you guys think ? mess with their mana, tehn tak out their win cons, i think it could be pretty good

well that can be a factor for sure! to stop combo i like more the white splash for hatebears since they disrupt and also can provide a clock wich is the most important situation

Darkgobs

05-23-2015, 11:54 AM

Hi guys!
I'd like to share my report of a little local tournament (12 players) I won yesterday night in Geneva.
I played the following list:

Main Deck (63):
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Mox Diamond
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Forest
3 green Fetches
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Academy Ruins
2 Thespian Stage
2 Dark Depths

3 Crop Rotation
3 Intuition
3 Gamble
2 Tolaria West

3 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Somkestack

Sideboard (15):
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Zuran Orb
1 Seismic Assault
1 Primeval Titan
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Karakas

Round 1: LEDless Dredge 2-0 (Alain)
G1: He starts (I think I didn't won the dice once that evenning) and opens with Gemstone Mine into Careful Study, discarding no dredgers, which makes me quite happy: a great match-up for me, and he kept a bad hand, with a lot of drawing effect and lands. He won't be able to start fast enough and I quickly lock him with Exploration, Chasm, Loam, Tabernacle Waste, and then make a safe 20/20 turn 5-6.
G2: The second on is a bit harder, since he's got a nice start and quickly assemble some Ichorids and Narco, while i managed to cast Sphere of Resistance befor he cabals it. That slows him just enough to let me stabilize at 7 life with Chasm and Loam,. I then find Tabernacle and later Bojuka with Tolaria ftw, befor he can Dread Return his Flame-kin Zealot. This one was more tense.
IN: + 4 Sphere of Resistance, + 1 Karakas
OUT: -1 Smokestack, - 3 Intuition (I felt like they would have been cabal'ed anyway), -1 x .
1-0.

Round 2: Tempo Thresh (RUG Delver) 2-1 (Edward)
I know what he's palying. It's a rather good M-U, but things can fall apart quickly if they have the right cards.
G1: He starts with T1 Ponder, T2 Tarmo. I respond with Maze of Ith. He then plays T3 Tarmo, T4 Tarmo. Ok. I transmute for Tabernacle. I also have Waste and Loam, and clean his board as I still have 9 hp.
G2: I ull to 6 and keep a slow hand. He quickly has a 3/3 Mangoose with a 4/5 Tarmo, and has 4 lands. I have no exploration and got counterspelled my tutors. Died quickly.
G3: I mull to 5 but find a good hand with P.fire, Loam, Waste, Forest and Mox. He opens with Double Delver. I find a 2nd Punishing Fire. Then Waste-lock ftw.
IN: + 4 Krosan Grip for Artifact Hate
OUT: - 3 Intuition, -1 Tranquil Thicket
2-0.

Round 3: OmniTell 2-1 (Paul-Henry)
He's my mate and we both know what each other is playing. The only good thing for me is that he's quite new with the deck. But still, I exspect to loose this one.
G1: He starts and go S&T into Emrakul T3 and even FoW'ed one desperate Gamble.
G2: I sided 11 cards, and open with an awesome hand, with 2 Sphere, some green Mana and the Combo. I maybe missplayed by casting one of the Sphere instead of waiting for him to S&T. But the 2nd Sphere resolved and bought me time so I could make a token at the end of his 4rd turn and thne swing for twenty.
G3: I think I mull to 6, and find another great hand with some decent manabase, Krosan and Sphere. I stupidly play sphere again, which will be countered again (!). He S&T into Omniscience and still has to find some cantrips: I play Krosan Grip. He was a pit pissed after I found another Sphere which resolved. I then Tolaria into Karakas and then assemble the combo FTW.
I don't remember well thoses games, so some things might be incorrect, but the idea is still there. Both last times I play with him in small tournaments, he was on Imperial Painter and me with RUG land. I won 1-0 twice. I donno if I am blessed or if he's cursed, but it just ain't normal ^^.
IN: + 4 Sphere of Resistance, + 4 Krosan Grip, + 1 Seismic Assault, + 1 Primitive Titan, + 1 Karakas
OUT: -3 Maze of Ith, - 2 Explosives, -2 P.fire (keeping one in case the D.Depths gets surgical'ed), - 1 Smokestack, - 1 Chasm, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Ghost quarter.
3-0.

Round 4: Burn (1-0-1) (Daniel)
G1: I keep a hand with P.fire Tropical Island, exploration, Mox, Tolaria, Thepsian Stage and 1 other cards. He starts and open with Lava Spike. I go for Trop, Mox, Exploration, and Thespian. T2 He palys Eidolon which meets P.Fire EoT. T2 I go for Tolaria into Darkdepths, and kill him befor he does the same. Pfiu!
G2: This one was a really hard and interesting game. I mull to 6 and find a decent hand with Tropical, Tolaria, Loam, Crop, Thespian and something irrelevant, like P.Fire or something. He opens with Monastery. I play Tropical, go. He suspends Rift Bolt and attack again, go. I play Tolaria, go. At his upkeep, he plays the Rift Bolt. In response, I crop sacking Tolaria and finding Chasm, which makes me sacrifice my Tropical. He plays another Swiftspear and Lavamancer. So at the beginning of my 3rd Turn, I have Chasm and nothing else. I draw: not a green source. So I play Thespian Stage and pass. He can't make anything relevant, so he plays Lavamancer and probably tried to build a instant-deadly hand to unleash letal damage at the second my Chasm would die. Which will never happen. 2 Turn after, I manage to find a green source, and starts dredging and find another Thespian Stage. I still don't have any Exploration, but I soon have a Thespian which is a copy of Chasm and another Thespian in play with Loam active. The problem is I don't have multiple landdrops, so I have to take some additional damage from Chasm to be able to transmute Tolaria into Zuran Orb, which brought me infinite Chasm until he can find Smash to Smithereens. He eventually finds it, but at that time I had Tolaria'ed again into Academy Ruin, so I know i can't die anymore. It was the last round and my opponent wouldn't councede, so i just go infinite Chasm and slowly assembled Dark Depths combo. He played Ensnaring Bridge. Well, I went for P.fire Combo instead and then found a Krosan Grip. But as I knew I had won. We went to time befor I could kill him, and i won 1-0-1.
4-0.

So I ended first and won a Revised Badland, which is really cool for a 12 player tournament! I got really lucky with my openning hand, but didn't win any dice, so I guess it's balanced (a bit) =P.
I was happy with the deck and didn't do too much horrible mistakes (or haven't noticed them...). Land is definitely a really interesting and fun deck to play!

Some thoughts I had:
1/ I felt like my list was a bit under-optimal; I am not happy with the idea of a 63 cards maindeck (I actually wonder: is it really that problematic to have 62-63 cards in this deck?).

2/ 3 Intuition, 3 Crop Rotation, 3 Gamble and 2 Tolaria West are too much tutors (11!). And that's where I want to ask you guys what your opinion about this is. Tolaria West was really awesome, but it was sometime hard to find UU to transmute, so i wonder how list with only 2 Tropical Island manage to play this card efficiently. Maybe I should only play 1 Tolaria if I go for a splash (and thus -1 Tropical), but again: Tolaria felt really great, so I'd like to keep playing 2 of them (not more, though).

3/ Also, 3 Gamble might be a problem here. I am considering going back to 1 taiga and no Gamble, but I am not sure about this. How do you feel about Intuition AND Gamble AND Crop Roation? Maybe something like 3 Intuition, 1-2 Gamble, 3 Crop Rotation and 2 Tolaria West? Also, is it viable to play Gamble with only 1 taiga?

4/ I want to play both Smokestack and Crucible in the 75. But which one would be better in the maindeck? I don't feel like I have space for both of them maindeck, especially since...

...5/ I would also like to find a place in the maindeck for Karakas, because there is way too much OmniTell around, and Reanimator also comes back. But I don't feel like swapping Bojuka for Karakas. The Upside of having Karakas maindeck would be that it will allow the white splash (alongside with Savannah, of course).

6/ Since I want to add so much in the maindeck, I have to find some cards to remove: maybe I should go down to only 1 Dark Depths again. But I am scared of blind dredge into DRS, leading to the loose of the combo. Don't you guys have problems with only 1 Depths?

7/ I am not satisfied with my sideboard:
- Seismic Assault is great in the RG Combo version, but is not as good in our RUGx version. Is a good anti-Moon Tech, but is not viable if we slpash another color. OUT.
- I don't know what to think about the Titan, though: it's really good against every S&T.deck and Miracle, but I am allready well equipped against Miracle, and OmniTell is a 90% sure loose anyway. So I might bring this big guy out too, with regrets. Probably OUT.
- Zuran Orb is a must-have and help us a lot against red and combo decks. I will keep this one. KEEP
- Curcible of Worlds...well see 4/.
- I didnt use the Revoker in this tournament, but is I go for White splash, I would prpobably play Aethersworn Canonist over them, maybe alongside with some Thalia, I don't know yet. So what do you think about 1-3 Canonist and 1-3 Thalia (up to 5, maybe 6 creatures maximum)? Which one would be better?
- Krosan Grip and Sphere of Resistance: KEEP both of them x4, without any hesitation. I really feel like Krosan > Decay in the actual metagame (Miracle, OmniTell, Death and Taxes...)

Thank you guys for reading this report, it was maybe a bit long for such a small tournament! I'd also like to appologize for my english if I've maid too much mistakes: it's not my langage.
Also, any feedback would be much appreciated! :smile:
Cheers!

Phelix

05-24-2015, 02:06 PM

1: You could argue that Karakas is actually not good enough right now, unless you are playing canonist and gain extra value of a white source

2: 63 cards sounds nuts :P

3: Id like to play both stacke and crucible, stack being the most important card here.

4: (no worm harvest aye?)

5: i dont have a problem dreding into 1 depths vs deathrite. since you dont do it most of the time. and by that I mean you calculate the odds of it being ok or not. with a secondary win condition you are also in better shape (see 4)

6: Seismic assault is a trap here. or a dead end, or whatever. if you go there, you will get mugged.

7: yes, krosan grip is better than decay atm. 3-4ofs.

8: Spheres. I cant imagine not playing 4. They even do weird stuff and beat dredge.

9: I personally am not playing zuran orb in my 76 right now. "combo" either doesnt care about life totals or its ANT/storm combo. Im currently on an 8-0 run vs that in paper anyway.

Crimhead

06-08-2015, 03:23 PM

6: Seismic assault is a trap here. or a dead end, or whatever. if you go there, you will get mugged.

7: yes, krosan grip is better than decay atm. 3-4ofs.R/G lists run Assault for an answer to Moon. With a Loam online you can do 4-6 damage a turn through Blood Moon (which also facilitates triple red). I'm thinking of trying it in RUG.

I've been thinking the same thing about Decay, and am considering dropping black altogether. I only splash it for MD Tar Pit and SB Decays and a Drownyard. I want to try Boseiju instead of Drownyard anyway; and as much as I like the security of the second win-con, mostly Tar Pit has just been a CIPT U.Sea.

lavafrogg

06-08-2015, 05:46 PM

With how common blood moon is right now assault is actually fairly reliable. Most decks with blood moon that I have seen are still super light on graveyard hate, which is good for us.

mgrinshpon

06-23-2015, 12:46 AM

So this is what I've been playing at a local store's Monday night Legacy events. They're fairly casual events and I have a win percentage of about 50%. I recognize that I make an enormous number of mistakes per match and am trying to get better (poor sequencing, poor lines, etc).

Anyway, I'll be going to my first ever SCG IQ (Baltimore) this weekend. My goal is simply to sideboard well and have a cohesive sideboard plan since I'm really bad at that. My current plans are below the decklist and if anyone wouldn't mind picking apart my reasoning, I'd be super grateful!

3x Crop Rotation
3x Gamble
3x Intuition

3x Life from the Loam

1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
1x Smokestack
1x Zuran Orb

4x Exploration

1x Academy Ruins
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Maze of Ith
3x Punishing Fire
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Thespian's Stage
1x Tolaria West
2x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
//SB
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Krosan Grip
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Trinisphere

A quick word on the deck: I'm trying Trinisphere out in the sideboard slots. Gamble has been wonderful and the two Taigas give me a very reasonable burn plan. I've never had problems casting Abrupt Decays off of my singleton Bayou since people never Wasteland my dual lands (Maze of Ith or Thespian's Stage are usually higher priority targets).

Sideboard plans:

Burn: -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Academy Ruins, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Smokestack, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage, +2 Krosan Grip. This is a race between my life total and my ability to pump out a Marit Lage. The 10 tutor version of RUG lands is pretty good at winning on turn 4. Grip is for Pyrostatic Pillar and Sulfuric Vortex. Abrupt Decay costs black- a problem against the deck running multiple copies of Price of Progress.
Merfolk: -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Ghost Quarter, +2 Abrupt Decay.
Elves: -1 Smokestack, -1 Ghost Quarter, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage. Elves is cold to Marit Lage so I'm bringing more copies in. Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, and Chalice @ 1 also seem incredible here but I'm unclear on what to cut.
GWb Maverick. +2 Krosan Grip, +3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Intuition, -1 Tropical Island, -1 Tolaria West, -1 Smokestack, -1 something else.
Ponder Miracles: -2 Maze, -1 Zuran Orb, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Glacial Chasm, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Crop Rotation, +2 Krosan Grip, +3 Abrupt Decay, +1 Revoker, +1 Chalice of the Void. Punishing Fire is important since it wastes mana and hurts Jace, one of their most potent wincons. A second Chalice would be great here since Chalice @ 1 is very, very painful.
Legendary Miracles:
Punishing Jund: -1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Smokestack, -1 Tolaria West, +3 Abrupt Decay. Permanent heavy decks are great at fighting Smokestack so I won't bother with that. Abrupt Decay can hit key cards like Lili, Dark Confidant, or Deathrite Shaman in the event Punishing Fire isn't up yet.
Reanimator: -1 Maze of Ith, -1 Zuran Orb, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Smokestack, -1 Engineered Explosives, +2 Chalice of the Void, +2 Trinisphere, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage, +1 Karakas
Shardless BUG:
RUG Delver: -1 Intuition, -1 Smokestack, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage. This is another fast matchup where having Punishing Fire and a fast combo matter a lot. Chalice @ 1 seems like a fine play here, though, but the rest of the deck seems extremely well-equipped to handle anything RUG is throwing at us.
ANT/TES: +2 Chalice, +2 Trinisphere, +2 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Thespian's Stage, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Smokestack, -3 other cards?
Omnitell: +2 Krosan Grip, +2 Trinisphere, +2 Sphere of Resistance, +2 Chalice of the Void, +1 Thespian's Stage, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Karakas, -1 Bojuka Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, -1 Zuran Orb, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -2 other cards?
Death and Taxes: no good clue, never played against it. Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip seems great, though.
UW Stoneblade: ?

bryanzoll

06-23-2015, 08:57 AM

Burn: -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Academy Ruins, -1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Smokestack, +1 Dark Depths, +1 Thespian's Stage, +2 Krosan Grip. This is a race between my life total and my ability to pump out a Marit Lage. The 10 tutor version of RUG lands is pretty good at winning on turn 4. Grip is for Pyrostatic Pillar and Sulfuric Vortex. Abrupt Decay costs black- a problem against the deck running multiple copies of Price of Progress.

I would highly suggest brining in Chalices here. Chalice on 1 can save you many turns to setup a kill / control the board.

snorlaxcom

07-03-2015, 03:49 PM

Anyway, I'll be going to my first ever SCG IQ (Baltimore) this weekend.

What was your result?

Phelix

07-06-2015, 08:38 PM

I played REAL lands at GP Lille.

Started 6-0, then 6-0-1.... then 6-2-1. (#174 of 1567)

True story.

Will post list.

Interesting spoiler notes:

+ choke, Iona
- zuran orb, ensnaring bridge, chasm

mgrinshpon

07-06-2015, 10:03 PM

What was your result?
I got slaughtered. I'll write up a tournament report while commuting to work in the morning over the next week.

I would highly suggest brining in Chalices here. Chalice on 1 can save you many turns to setup a kill / control the board.
So after the aforementioned bloodbath, I really dislike Chalice. Chalice is great on 0 against storm and nowhere else. In all of the games that I drop a Chalice, making Marit Lage is one of my most important plays, right? Burn, Elves, Omni, Storm, and a few other decks are completely cold to everyone's favorite 20/20. Chalice on 1 shuts down Crop Rotation and Gamble (if applicable), the former of which is such a key card in the matchup.

Phelix

07-07-2015, 02:16 AM

Id play 3 in the main if i had the room.

Skuttlespike

07-07-2015, 05:39 AM

Dosferra

07-07-2015, 09:08 AM

Chalice is pretty lackluster in RG Lands I agree, but in RUG Lands it's amazing. Whenever I find room for it, I have one in the main, otherwise 3 in the sideboard. They more or less come in against every blue/cantrip deck, switching places with the crop rotations.

Phelix

07-07-2015, 10:42 AM

This thread is for lands. Not that RG atrocity.

Ingo

07-07-2015, 11:31 AM

The chalices is amazing on 0 against storm but it can do more harm than good anywhere else. I don't think it does enough to keep it's slot.

I think I would have cut it from my top 8 list at Lille at the weekend if I had for maybe another sphere effect or a second Choke. The Pithing Needle was also one that I am still not sure was worth included but I don't know what I would cut it for.

Congrats with the result, as I assume you're Alex Mortimer from Lille's top8. I'd be interested in a little report from all 15 rounds + top8!

This thread is for lands. Not that RG atrocity.

But perhaps better in the RG thread, as it seems a touchy issue ...

Skuttlespike

07-07-2015, 11:35 AM

Very sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. I'll move over to the 'right' Lands thread.

nolink

07-07-2015, 11:53 PM

Very sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. I'll move over to the 'right' Lands thread.

Its ok. Its just same deck base with 2 different iterations. RG lands is a good deck too, its just a preference, there is no clear winner which is better one as it depends on meta.

nolink

07-08-2015, 01:43 AM

New stuffs to test this evening at LGS legacy weeklys.

Mainboard
-1 grove of burnwillows
+1 bayou

Sideboard
-1 ensnaring bridge
-1 zuran orb
-1 smokestack
+2 slaughter games
+1 miren the moaning well

Last week while testing, found that slaughter games was really good against show and tell. Resolving 1 naming show and tell basically ends the game straight out.

Decided to up the count to total of 3. Lots of things to name against miracles too.

Cut ensnaring bridge due to it only being good against our good creature based matchups

With slaughter games, I don't need smokestack anymore to further grind out miracles.

Tryout miren the moaning well instead of zuran orb to create a moat for at least 4 turns under chasm.

Report coming in 12hrs time after the weekly event.

door

07-08-2015, 05:38 AM

New stuffs to test this evening at LGS legacy weeklys.

Last week while testing, found that slaughter games was really good against show and tell. Resolving 1 naming show and tell basically ends the game straight out.

unfortunately that's not true. Cunning wish for Release the Ants, any cantrip for keeping a card with a big cmc on topdeck, Release the Ants for mana, clash for the win. Everything needs no more than 3 mana, if Cunning Wish is played at the end of our turn.
Also sometimes they can win with Young Pyromancer, as we are forced to side out most of the creature hate.

Anen

07-08-2015, 07:23 AM

nolink

07-08-2015, 11:52 AM

unfortunately that's not true. Cunning wish for Release the Ants, any cantrip for keeping a card with a big cmc on topdeck, Release the Ants for mana, clash for the win. Everything needs no more than 3 mana, if Cunning Wish is played at the end of our turn.
Also sometimes they can win with Young Pyromancer, as we are forced to side out most of the creature hate.

Of course it is to resolve slaughter games before omniscience in play. If its in play the game is supposed to be over isn't it?

I'm not expecting my opponent to hardcast omniscience.

Even if he float emrakul on topdeck and release the ants, the clash will only return it to their hand.

I still keep chasm no matter how I sideboard as an insurance to transformation sideboard like young pyromancer in show and tell.

Phelix

07-08-2015, 01:11 PM

I still keep chasm no matter how I sideboard as an insurance to transformation sideboard like young pyromancer in show and tell.

chasm is not doing the job here, its one of the top card to board out here, along with punishing fire. you could argue keeping tabernacle in for that scenario, but im boarding out chasm every time.

you could do whatever you prefer, but I dont think it puts you in the best position.

n0ct3m89

07-08-2015, 03:43 PM

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29692-ATX-Legacy-Power-Series-11th-with-lands&p=892551#post892551

just wrote a report with lands.Would love to hear your comments.

kravkenov

07-13-2015, 05:59 AM

Hi there, I saw more and more players with 2 Tabernacle in main (over Ghost Quarter). Do you think it's a good move in the current meta ? (read GP Lille metagame).

Darkgobs

07-13-2015, 06:55 AM

I played REAL lands at GP Lille.

Started 6-0, then 6-0-1.... then 6-2-1. (#174 of 1567)

True story.

Will post list.

Interesting spoiler notes:

+ choke, Iona
- zuran orb, ensnaring bridge, chasm

I have to say that I am really looking foward to see your list (and - maybe - a quick report, or your feeling about playing Eternal Garden in such a big event [9-14 round is exhausting for everyone, but with Land, it can be really brainkilling]) :smile:

And still, #174 of 1567 is a good result, so congrats!

Phelix

07-13-2015, 10:52 AM

Decklist:

4 life from the loam
4 exploration
3 crop rotation
1 sylvan library
1 worm harvest
3 intuition
3 punishing fire
4 mox diamond
2 engineered explosives
2 chalice of the void

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
2 tolaria west
2 tropical island
1 forest
1 taiga
1 bayou
3 grove of the burnwillows
3 maze of ith
3 fetches
2 thespians stage
1 dark depths
1 tabernacle
1 academy ruins
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 urborg, tomb of yawmoth

Sideboard:
2 CHOKE
4 dark confidant
3 sphere of resistance
3 krosan grip
3 Iona, shield of emeria

Will do a minireport, kina busy atm.

Darkgobs

07-13-2015, 12:43 PM

Phelix

07-14-2015, 06:06 AM

It seems i left my two pages of notes in France.

Il can only give a super brief summary.

Matchups:

Bye: Opponent Never showed up. AC died. Bottles of water were handed out. I got his too. doublewin.
RUG: 2-0
R/G "lands": 2-0
Burn: 2-0
Miracles: 2-0
BUG: 2-0

6-0 at that point. 3 more points for day two.

WGB maverick-ish: 1-1 ( i i win game 1. he wins game two in the last round of overtime) (I missplayed and missed my own chalice trigger ftw)
Infect: Lost. Cant remember score.
Miracles: Lost 2-1 (I think) he played at least two surgicals and meddling mages.

Felt like deck was good. Felt like i punted for 7-0.

Chokes were great. I cut a tropical for a grove for that reason.
When boarding in chokes, take out a trop and a tolaria west.(since intuition comes out as well, except vs omnitell)

I Never faced omni at all, couldnt say if Ionas are worth it yet.
Please ask questions.

Tightest game was perhaps vs burn, since i have no brige, zuran orb or chasm.

Chalices are super boss. killed several guys w. them.

current stat: NEVER lost to R/G lands.
Had sweet brag stat ruined at this GP. I lost for the first time on a GP day one, while playing w. lands, during my 26th round of play. Was sweet run.

Darkgobs

07-14-2015, 07:08 AM

@ Phelix: Ok, thanks for sharing, and sorry you forgot your infos in Lille.^^ So, a few questions for you:

1/ How was Worm Harvest, in particular against Miracle? Did you sided it out or not (I tend to keep them against Miracle because they are often running only 1 RiP in their 75, but maybe it's a mistake)?

2/ How good were the 4 Bob? In which M-U do you pack them in?

3/ What about that lonely Sylvan? =) I know it's super strong, but how many time per round can you get it into play, and not dredged in your yard (which tends to happen to me. Isn't it a free traget for Decay G1?)? (In other word, was that slot worth it?)

4/ Didn't you miss the 4th Krosan Grip?

5/ What are you thoughts about Boseiju in the 75?

6/ Would you ever consider playing Decay since you have a good black manabase?

Btw, gg against Burn... what happend? Ultra-quick 20/20?
PS: I lol'ed when i read R/G "lands": 2-0 :laugh: Damn, you really hate that R/G version! :rolleyes:

EDIT: Not even a single Tranquil Thicket?

Ingo

07-14-2015, 07:09 AM

Tightest game was perhaps vs burn, since i have no brige, zuran orb or chasm.

Interesting, could you elaborate on cutting Chasm?

current stat: NEVER lost to R/G lands.
Do you think RUG is favored against RG? It seems to me that who establishes loam/accelerant/wasteland, or who denies loam through crop->bog has the most chance to win, and with 2 manabond, 4gamble and 4crop RG seems best equipped?

Phelix

07-14-2015, 12:10 PM

1. I mainly play worm harvest to beat miracles. I love the card.

2. Love 4 bob. It gives us an engine without using the yard, as well as a clock.

3. Sylvan super strong against control and non-storm combo. Against deck w decay we win anyway since they mostly have No basics

4. 4 grips are a real option. I traded one for iona. If i wasnt on that plan id play 4.

5/ What are you thoughts about Boseiju in the 75? -No. With worm harvest we Are ok. We beat miracles. Id rather have smokestack

6/ i played decay for a while. Grip is better Vs omni (and moon)

7. Burn. Chalice ftw. Game two spheres also saved me.

EDIT: Not even a single Tranquil Thicket? - No And thats wrong now. Lots of surgicals out there.

Phelix

07-14-2015, 12:14 PM

I dont hate RG. Its a dark depths combo deck. Its not lands.
I hate saying sultai way more.

Phelix

07-14-2015, 12:15 PM

Yes i think RUG is a big favorite Vs RG.

Chasm is out now since the format about spells right now, not critters.

snorlaxcom

07-14-2015, 01:01 PM

I've gone down to 2 twest and up to 2 thicket in case I can't get a chalice to stick vs surgical decks. After the cruise ban this felt like the way to go with more drs coming back and chasm/orb have been less effective in general with people picking up more omni and miralces. MD chalice is a good compromise for not having our traditional voltron setup. At least 3 Iona is reasonable, but I wouldn't go any lower if you go this route. I have found my opp get out from under a 3sphere too many times for my liking. The burn mu you have to just dodge with this setup(5 hate cards), but that seems like a fair tradeoff for the current meta.

For miracles, did you also bring in spheres to be paired with choke? I am on that plan, but with thalias.

LegoEgo

07-15-2015, 11:59 AM

Hi,
I went 10-4-1 in Lille with RG-Lands, here´s my decklist and a quick report

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
4 Gamble
4 Loam
4 Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
1 Verdant Catacomb
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Forest
2 Tranquil Thicket
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Stage
3 Maze
2 Depths
1 Chasm
1 Tabernacle
1 Savannah
1 Bojuka Bog

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hydro Blast
1 Choke
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Day1:
(I only remembered the things that stood out day one which are mainly the losses so its not gonna be very detailed, sorry)
R1: 2-0 against Stoneblade
R2: 2-1 against BUG Delver
R3: 0-2 against 4c Delver with True-Name-Nemesis
I just remember that I was extremly pissed and that he had True-Name-Nemesis as a 2-of and that I locked him out completly but that I still just died slowly to my personal Nemesis of a card, because I couldnt find an anything to save me or kill him.
R4: 2-1 against UR Delver
R5: 2-0 against Death and Taxes
R6: 1-2 against Elves
this were the least fun match, because two of the three games werent played they were decided by mulligan
Game one he mulls to 3, and I crush him with a near perfect 7
Game two is actually close and includes my most debatable play of the day, I have Tabernacle in play and he got Cradle and a bunch of creatures, I have Sylvan Library and see Gamble and nothing else that helps me,
if he has natural order and untaps he wins, but if not I could grind him out with punishing Fire, I have a Grove so I could Gamble for that, but if I gamble for Wasteland and get to keep it I most likely win on the spot, I ponder some time then pay 8 life to bring my total hand size to 8 and gamble for Wasteland, I roll the die and... hit the wasteland :rolleyes:, he untaps and casts natural order
Game three I mull to a bad 4 and lose
R7: 2-1 against Death and Taxes
this match also sticked in my memory but for completly diffrent reasons
Game one I completly lock him out of the game but instead of conceding he watched me for over 30 min. do my thing until I find my kill, apparently he didn´t know what my deck was doing so I can at least understand that.
Game two he has a fast start and I keep a solid hand but after 2-3 completly landless dredges I´m so far behind, that I can´t get back in the game.
Game three is again me having him completly locked out of the game, but I dont find the kill, and time is running up, but instead of playing fast he just stares for minutes at his cards, deciding which of the creatures that die to punishing fire he´s going to play, we go to extra turns of course and they run out one turn before I could kill him, at least after I explained to him that a draw would kill either of us and that there´s definitly no way out for him he concedes, which was a fine move, but my nerves...my nerves.
R8: I dont remember this one I´m sorry but I won
R9: 2-1 against RUG Delver

Day 2:
R:10 2-1 against Omnitell
can´t say much else other then my board paid of
R:11 2-1 against Omnitell
can´t say much else other then my board paid of
R:12 0-2 against ANT
Well my board lacked a bit in the anti-storm-department and he was one of the best ANT Players around (Kai), so I didnt stand that much of a chance
R:13 0-2 against Omnitell
even with 15 cards to side against Omnitell the matchup is still hard, and you still need good draw, so thats that
R:14 2-0 against UR Delver
R:15 1-1 intentional Draw against Maverick-ish
We still played after we drawed, and I would have won 2-1 but I rather took 250€ then maybe playing another Storm or Onmitell and have nothing

So in conclusion I finished 77th, I really liked the sylvan librarys, but I dont know if they are a main stay, I really liked my board, Krosan Grip is probably the best board card right now, it´s usefull against almost anything, I wished I played against miracles because the 4 Blasts + the 4 Krosan Grip make that matchup really favorable, the white-splash board cards where mvp against Omnitell, but for having a good chance against storm 2-4 more cards would be needed, so I think I will maybe take out two Blasts for two Mind-Break-Traps if after the good finishes of Storm (I rarely saw any Storm players at all but all the ones I saw were playing at the top-tables, and even if none were Top-8, I think those decks might gain back some popularity), because against good storm players you got to deversify your hate between permanent and spell hate. Also I tried slauther games for an extended period of time and its almost allways to slow.

Another thing I wanted to talk about is something that bugs me, the generel shittalking of RG-Lands by RUG-Lands Players like "its not real Lands", look I intensivly and exclusivly played Lands long before the printing of Thespian Stage and thereafter, I played it 4c, 5c with Intuition and E-Tutor, with Intuition and Gamble etc. and I tried the RG-Version almost immediatly after it was possible, so I have expierience with both decks. And after playing both decks alot, I came to the conclusion that RG-Lands is just the superior deck of the two, I haven´t played the recent Incarnation of the RUG version so I reserve judgement for that and plan to play around with that in the future, but from what I can see not much has changed.
So why do I think RG is superior, the main reason is its versetility, in that yes it can be a very explosive Dark Dephts Combo deck, but to think its just that is just foolish, it can also be a nearly as grindy prison-controle Deck as the RUG version, using alomst the same tools. And while I agree you dont have the complicated Intuition piles (which I genuinly miss) or a swissarmy-knive artifact toolbox, to test your skill, what really makes the RG-Version so challenging is to know when to follow which strategie or when to switch gears, something that can be as or even harder than an Intuition pile, and while RUG-Lands is the better controle deck (which is why it´s better in the mirror, because thats all about controle), it lacks this very core aspect which makes RG-Lands such a great deck. And of course the win-percentage numbers of the two decks back me up, but thats beside the point.

On an unrelated note, I think the best positioned deck this GP was the 4c Aggro-Loam which made top-8 twice, its a great deck (that can crush everything right now including Lands), a hybrid of Lands and Maverick I would say, so its definitly worth checking out.

Thats all
Best Michael

Crimhead

07-15-2015, 12:34 PM

Another thing I wanted to talk about is something that bugs me, the generel shittalking of RG-Lands by RUG-Lands Players like "its not real Lands", look I intensivly and exclusivly played Lands long before the printing of Thespian Stage and thereafter, I played it 4c, 5c with Intuition and E-Tutor, with Intuition and Gamble etc. and I tried the RG-Version almost immediatly after it was possible, so I have expierience with both decks. And after playing both decks alot, I came to the conclusion that RG-Lands is just the superior deck of the two, I haven´t played the recent Incarnation of the RUG version so I reserve judgement for that and plan to play around with that in the future, but from what I can see not much has changed.
So why do I think RG is superior, the main reason is its versetility, in that yes it can be a very explosive Dark Dephts Combo deck, but to think its just that is just foolish, it can also be a nearly as grindy prison-controle Deck as the RUG version, using alomst the same tools. And while I agree you dont have the complicated Intuition piles (which I genuinly miss) or a swissarmy-knive artifact toolbox, to test your skill, what really makes the RG-Version so challenging is to know when to follow which strategie or when to switch gears, something that can be as or even harder than an Intuition pile, and while RUG-Lands is the better controle deck (which is why it´s better in the mirror, because thats all about controle), it lacks this very core aspect which makes RG-Lands such a great deck. And of course the win-percentage numbers of the two decks back me up, but thats beside the point.I'm a Lands player who vastly prefers RUG, yet I agree with everything you say. I even consider Jund Depths to be a Lands.dec configuration - and that's more of a stretch.

R/G is a control deck just like RUG, and trying to combo out asap is usually a mistake with either deck. I actually find R/G harder to play, but that could be because I'm more used to playing RUG. As you say the tools are similar and the differences are often subtle in the heat of battle; so my RUG Lands instincts might be hindering me.

I think the shit talk is jealousy - RUG lands is just more fun, and some of us (not me) are bitter that R/G puts up better numbers. As for which is better, I think it's meta dependent. RUG tends to be better vs control but worse vs combo.

On an unrelated note, I think the best positioned deck this GP was the 4c Aggro-Loam which made top-8 twice, its a great deck (that can crush everything right now including Lands), a hybrid of Lands and Maverick I would say, so its definitly worth checking out.
I think it's just Punishing Dark Maverick with 4x Chalice and a lack f 1ccspells t play around Chalice (though people are bound to call it a dedicated anti-blue deck). I have been thinking a lot about this MU though. I think the deck is apt to take off in a hurry, as some players are chomping at the bit to play a blue-less midrange deck.

My feeling is that RUG will do much better than R/G in this match.

With almost every permanent they play having cc = 2, EE should be a bomb in this MU
R/G runs more 1ccspells, and is more easily shut down by Chalice.
Abrupt Decay is good against Lili
I'd like to see more discussion on this MU for sure! Anybody have any thoughts?

LegoEgo

07-15-2015, 01:36 PM

Yes I think the matchup is extremly hard, I played against it in a trial and was pretty much obliterated, DRS, Ooze (both 1-of but green-suns-zenithable) + Leyline of the void from the board + 4xChalice MB which mostly hits RG-Lands, thus making this matchup a good deal worse than with RUG I think, but both versions have trouble here, most RUG builds also run Crop Rotation and Exploration, and blanking those is allways terrible, but its true EE is probably a massive asset here.

Rivfader

07-15-2015, 02:11 PM

It's a tough matchup. I played against it twice in Lille (trial and mainevent) and lost both 2-1. Thing is that Scooze and KOTR will outgrind RG if they see play. In retrospect, I think a fast combowin before KOTR comes active might be the best approach, as they only have Karakas/Maze to deal with the token (no swords because of Chalice).

Congrats by the way with your 77th place!

Phelix

07-15-2015, 05:30 PM

supremePINEAPPLE

07-15-2015, 06:15 PM

I'm playing both right now and do prefer them to be separated even though it's annoying for new people like LegoEgo who post in the wrong thread. I feel like combining them would stifle most of the discussion about RUGx since it's being played way less.

snorlaxcom

07-15-2015, 06:46 PM

MTGS has a combined thread that is confusing if you are not an adept lands player and has useless content if you are more experienced and prefer playing one version.

Agian, links to other "Lands" strategies are in primer.

Crimhead

07-15-2015, 08:09 PM

Its two different decks.

They have two threads on these boards. Lets with er merge them or seperate them.

What deck is better? Statistically we dont know.
What deck is harder to play? Id Wager the rug version
Do we need to pick sides ? Not at All.

Yeah, we wouldn't merge Team America with Tempo Thresh just because they are both Delver decks. 4cc Loam is a new match up though, and I think it's fair to discuss how a new element might affect our deck selection. There are some of us who switch between the two as a meta call.

Dice_Box

07-15-2015, 09:09 PM

I might just have to bite the bullet and post a Primer in Salvation to help with the issue.

Lego, come to the Combo lands thread, we have cookies.

snorlaxcom

07-15-2015, 09:43 PM

Yeah, we wouldn't merge Team America with Tempo Thresh just because they are both Delver decks.

A better comparison is Dredge vs mana-less near the beginning of the thread.

4cc Loam is a new match up though, and I think it's fair to discuss how a new element might affect our deck selection.

It's called aggro loam and it's nothing new. Chalice vs us g1 rarely shuts us down as we have multiple EE to answer them and their creatures. Some pack primeval titan, so try to prevent them from getting 6 mana if you suspect it. This gets pretty easy since we are able to waste them twice as fast as they are used to. Devastating dreams is a scarey staple without an exploration up or if they follow up with a bojuka bog. They can't use extraction with chalice, so bring in some grips to kill leylines or crypts. Expect Ooze to be in the 75.

Crimhead

07-15-2015, 10:18 PM

It's called aggro loam and it's nothing new.
It's not new per se, but it hasn't been a significant part of the meta.

Rivfader

07-16-2015, 01:33 AM

Do we need to pick sides ? Not at All.

Absolutely right.
But you might wanna avoid RG atrocity and REAL lands terminology then...

Phelix

07-16-2015, 04:47 AM

Atrocity. Sure. It was humour.

"Real lands". I Stand by that. RUGx is real lands. the other decks are other decks.

Phelix

07-16-2015, 04:56 AM

Back to the fun stuff:

This is my latest list in TESTING not really recommended, but if you want try give something silly a whirl:

4 life from the loam
4 exploration
3 crop rotation
1 Entomb
1 worm harvest
4 Dark Confidant
3 punishing fire
4 mox diamond
1 engineered explosives
2 chalice of the void

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 swamp
1 forest
1 taiga
3 bayou
3 grove of the burnwillows
3 maze of ith
3 Verdant catacombs
2 thespians stage
1 dark depths
1 tabernacle
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 urborg, tomb of yawmoth

Sideboard:
4 choke
3 Trinisphere
1 Chalice of the void
4 krosan grip
3 Iona, shield of emeria

Ingo

07-16-2015, 05:54 AM

You have a strange kind of humour, Phelix.

Back to the fun stuff:

This is my latest list in TESTING not really recommended, but if you want try give something silly a whirl:

I liked the previous build more, with Chalice along Intuition.
What you think about running 4 Chalices, as DTT really pushes the cantrips and Chalice seems really good right now (it hits Lands as well, but loaming each turn could circumvent that)?
Whats the experience with your 2-off Chalice?

Crimhead

07-16-2015, 10:52 AM

"Real lands". I Stand by that. RUGx is real lands. the other decks are other decks.You could say the same thing about the original 43 Lands build. The deck has been getting diluted over the years. Leading up to DRS, most lists didn't even run red anymore. Red came back when Factories were replaced by PFires; a move which reduced the overall land count and resulted in less of a "Real Lands" archetype.

A typical R/G build has only eight cards main which don't have the word 'land' printed on them somewhere (4x PFire & 4x Gamble). RUGx lists usually have just as many such cards - 3x Intuition, 3x PFire, 2xEE.

Both these builds are quite a bit different from the original. There is no objective measure by which RUGx is fundamentally more a Lands deck than R/G. This is just petty snobbery, elitism, and/or bitter jealousy.

Phelix

07-16-2015, 12:17 PM

You could say the same thing about the original 43 Lands build. The deck has been getting diluted over the years. Leading up to DRS, most lists didn't even run red anymore. Red came back when Factories were replaced by PFires; a move which reduced the overall land count and resulted in less of a "Real Lands" archetype.

A typical R/G build has only eight cards main which don't have the word 'land' printed on them somewhere (4x PFire & 4x Gamble). RUGx lists usually have just as many such cards - 3x Intuition, 3x PFire, 2xEE.

Both these builds are quite a bit different from the original. There is no objective measure by which RUGx is fundamentally more a Lands deck than R/G. This is just petty snobbery, elitism, and/or bitter jealousy.

1. Talking about the history of the deck in that way to me seems a little silly.

2. 43 Lands has become whatever is in THIS thread. you are welcome to argue that thesource has it wrong and that the thread should be merged. Perhaps you can post a thread on the topic? I thinnk that would just be confusing and a little annoying to everyone.

Crimhead

07-16-2015, 12:48 PM

I never said they should be merged - if you read the top post of this page I quite clearly advocate the opposite. Reading is tech.

What I'm saying is that the Lands archetype has evolved along two distinct branches, and neither is more truly "Lands.dec" than the other. You seem to have a different opinion, but offer nothing substantial to back it up.

Dice_Box

07-16-2015, 12:53 PM

43 Lands is a footnote in Legacy's history now. This deck has become it's own beast, riding on the back of printings and rules changes. Combo Lands is the same, a deck riding on the back of printings and changes. Both are strong and unique in their own right, regardless of who's pilots wish to belittle who. (And to date I have not seen to many elitist Combo pilots)

I am with Crim on this one, your being a snob and their ain't no reason for it. What is it you wish to prove? This deck is harder to pilot? This deck is better than the others? You have a bigger bulge then pilots of other decks? I don't get it.

I will concede this deck is then harder of the two common lands decks to learn, I think Combo is harder to pilot though since its reduced late game options makes for catching up in the late game hard if you slip behind. You get punished harder if you fuck up with Combo Lands and most of your choices of compounded into the opening two turns. If you read the game state wrong, you will pay for it harder then RUG would because you don't have something like EE to save you.

This deck is better than the others? I would argue that they both offer a strength the other doesn't possess. Combo Lands is faster, it's tutors are cheaper, it can get Loam online faster and it is able to pull faster wins. It falls far short of RUGs catch up potential, it's somewhat inconsistent since it has to bet on Loaming what it needs and it has to build in redundancy because of that. It can play a totally Graveyard free game though. The flip side is that RUG can run one of silver bullets that just win games. It gets Zuran Orb, EE, artifact recursion and a much more dependable tutor in Intuition. It also gains a stronger inevitably factor as the game goes on. A basic and a Gofy are more of a headache for Combo then it is for RUG. Granted, Maze is in both decks so... Yea.

I don't feel either is better, it really depends on how you wish to play. I don't think being a snob over your choice though offers any benefits. Personally, I like combo, Painter, Elves, TES, RG Lands. It's a personal choice. Make of that what you please.

Rivfader

07-16-2015, 01:18 PM

Claiming to be the true and only Lands-deck is actually pretty childish, and as could have been suspected at the start of this nonsense, it's derailing the thread.
So let's cut it out and let's show some respect for eachother.

Dosferra

07-17-2015, 12:45 AM

Regardless what anyone thinks about what version of Lands, my guess would be that the root of the problem is the naming/terminology or lack thereof.

RUGx Lands has mostly been called just Lands for several years, as there hasn’t really been any other version. Nowadays whenever someone says Lands, it’s almost certain they are referring to RG Combo Lands. The longtime RUGx custodians obviously and rightfully get their panties in a bunch from this fact, especially when this phenomena reaches the inner sanctum of this very thread.

The fault, as with everything in life, probably lies with SCG.

Perhaps some confusion and irritation could be avoided by renaming this thread to RUGx, Control or Intuition Lands. Although that would give RG Combo Lands a stronger claim of being called “Lands” and we can’t have that.. or can we?

Dice_Box

07-17-2015, 01:39 AM

Personally, I don't think of this as "Lands" I think of it as "Control Lands". Anyone coming into Legacy now would likely think of the Combo deck as "Lands" If you said the name, mostly because it's the more common and better placing version of the deck.

This actually came ahead when I posted the Primer. I had been asked to call the deck "R/G Lands". I decided Combo needed to be in the name to show a stronger split from the Control thread. The idea being that you could see at a glance which is which. I would think that naming one thread "Combo Lands", another "Control Lands" and the last "Jund Depths" (a deck I do feel fits into the Lands sphere of influence) would be the best for everyone. After all, the thread named "43 Lands" is now locked away in the Old Threads folder, a grandfather for both of us now retired rightfully and with full honours from all.

Ingo

07-17-2015, 02:45 AM

Regardless what anyone thinks about what version of Lands, my guess would be that the root of the problem is the naming/terminology or lack thereof.

The root of the problem lies with a limited group of people who spout unconstructive supremascist trashtalk of 'real lands' versus the rest.
As a player who enjoys both versions and attempts to post accordingly in the right thread (and I'm pretty sure that's the majority of people posting), this is the thing that bothers me, not which version is 'real' and which isn't.
It's like Rug Delver being pissed about other existing delver variants, or Leddredge bitchtalking about Manaless, how stupid would that be.

Perhaps some confusion and irritation could be avoided by renaming this thread to RUGx, Control or Intuition Lands. Although that would give RG Combo Lands a stronger claim of being called “Lands” and we can’t have that.. or can we?

I like your idea of renaming this thread towards RUGx or Control Lands, it's a constructive suggestion in an otherwise useless discussion.
As for Rg then having a stronger claim on being called Lands ... what a strange line of thinking. That's nobody's claim to make, that's just how Magic and decks naturally evolve in a shifting metagame. Right now it's the RG-version of Lands that thrives the best, and who knows which evolutions might occur in the future.

As for naming, I prefer RUGx Lands and RG Lands.
ControlLands and ComboLands seem to imply that one is a controldeck and the other a combodeck (like TurboDepths), while they're both controldecks at heart. The extra focus on the combo lies in just 2-3 extra copies of Depths or Stage, where I see the bluesplash with EE/Ruins/TWest/Intuition/TropIsles as a bigger difference.

Anen

07-17-2015, 05:33 AM

It's like Rug Delver being pissed about other existing delver variants, or Leddredge bitchtalking about Manaless, how stupid would that be.

They don't bitchtalk because nobody in the "LED" Dredge thread is posting report about Manaless, nor having discussions about Manaless, nor asking to rename "Dredge" into "LED Dredge". There are "Dredge" and "Manaless Dredge" threads, I don't see why Lands and RG Lands are an issue..
RG players are coming in this thread to set fire to the oil, not the opposite.

Ingo

07-17-2015, 05:49 AM

They don't bitchtalk because nobody in the "LED" Dredge thread is posting report about Manaless, nor having discussions about Manaless, nor asking to rename "Dredge" into "LED Dredge". There are "Dredge" and "Manaless Dredge" threads, I don't see why Lands and RG Lands are an issue..
RG players are coming in this thread to set fire to the oil, not the opposite.

Sure it's best to keep RG or RUG posts in the designated thread, and namings like Lands and RG Lands are fine. You're getting flooded though with angered offtopic responses, because of some unnecessary and frustrated remarks about REAL Lands, RG 'lands' (with the apostrophes meant to question the authenticity), RG atrocity, ...

It's not just RG-players. Many posters just as me do not feel compartimented in RUG or RG, but are broadly interested in all versions (which is a healthy attitude in my opinion). You will never obtain a pure RUG-thread without any reference to RG, simply because both versions are too akin and have too many issues in common.

Dice_Box

07-17-2015, 08:34 AM

Crimhead

07-17-2015, 09:15 AM

They don't bitchtalk because nobody in the "LED" Dredge thread is posting report about Manaless, nor having discussions about Manaless, nor asking to rename "Dredge" into "LED Dredge". There are "Dredge" and "Manaless Dredge" threads, I don't see why Lands and RG Lands are an issue..
RG players are coming in this thread to set fire to the oil, not the opposite.
I'm a Lands player. I mostly play RUG or RUGb, sometimes RG, and thinking to try RGb and straight Jund sometime in the future. Regardless, I am always tweaking the main deck and sideboard - both expirimentally and in reaction to an evolving meta. I don't think I've played the exact same 75 (sometimes 76) more than twice in a tournament setting.

Most of my purpose discussing Lands is to compare the marits of various card inclusions. Sometimes this will result in questions of whether or not certtain cards which are good in one version might also be good in the other version (and why or why not) or if shifts in my meta might motivate one build over the other.

I don't think this derails or sabotages the thread!

Shittalking R/G does derail the thread and adds nothing of value to the community.

Dosferra

07-17-2015, 02:56 PM

Ingo

07-17-2015, 05:21 PM

I think the issue is that since SCG bills RG Combo Lands as just Lands and that is the deck that's been placing, people will assume Lands = RG. Same goes for podcasts and articles, when they talk about Lands they mean RG and maybe mention in one or two sentences that a long time ago in a galaxy far far away there was a RUG version.

P.S. Don't shoot, I play RUG, just saying why RGs keep popping up in here and why it's unlikely to stop.

That might very well be the case, and perhaps if SCG mentioned RG along the line, it would be cleaner. But it's impossible and I think also unpreferable to chirurgically split up both threads.
Impossible because both versions are very alike, the difference is what, like 8 cards? They share many strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes one version can inspire the other. Like RG splashing blue for EE/Ruins, which has been discussed several times on the other thread. Or Rug with a combo-orientation, with 2 depths, 4 Stages, 4 crops. That's enriching and where it's preferable to have some crossover.

It should be possible to reflect on other versions in function of the possibilities for this RUG-thread, without fearing any flaming reactions. Thing is, some people who were playin RUG for years have been allergic to RG of the very first beginning, which lead to the separate RG-thread (which wasn't the peaceful gift of RUG to RG as previously mentioned, RG simply got banned, in an unnecessary unrespectful way). Rg's putting up some great results these days, why not look at what makes the difference and see what works for RUG too?

Dice_Box

07-17-2015, 08:59 PM

I disagree that the threads should not have been split. On Salvation, you end up with people talking past each other all the time because the two decks do handle in fundamentally different ways. I can understand the wish to try and keep things contained to keep the conversation flowing, but there is honestly not a lot a Combo player can ad on a talk about how to pick the best Artifacts, best Intuition piles or just over play the deck since they don't handle alike.

You combine the Lands threads and you end up with a clusterfuck, it's not smart. Even if the difference between the decks looks small on a deck registration form, they are world's apart once you start playing them and they really do need that separation for discussion health.

As for how people react to those who play Combo, that's on them and them alone but I do understand the frustration when someone pops in and asks "Is Stifle good still in RUG" and everyone else is like "Your in the BUG thread mate". Granted that frustration is one thing, Elitist attitudes about which deck is the best or how Combo is a plague or some other BS is not helping no one.

snorlaxcom

07-17-2015, 10:33 PM

Keep cleaning up what you see fit Jander78.:smile: This conversation is nothing new and will probably happen in the future, which is also part of the frustration on behalf of myself and other Lands players.

I am going to be picking up the deck again after 6 months off of mtg, so hoping to give you guys some testing results, reports, and of course more pimpness.

iostreamer

07-22-2015, 07:34 AM

So with the return of Tranquil Thicket to the decklists what are people's thoughts on Horizon Canopy? Especially in builds that are also running Crucible.

It seems to me that being able to use the land early for mana in the early turns and not feel punished like you would playing an early Thicket would be pretty good but admittedly I have not played the deck much when cycle lands were popular so perhaps I am just missing something.

Also Snorlax post your current list? ;)

kravkenov

07-22-2015, 08:47 AM

What I love with Horizon Canopy is that you can cheat it in play with Crop Rotation and still use it to save a Life from the Loam.
It dosent look that wrong to run it instead of Thicket... may be we should give a try ! :')

Dosferra

07-22-2015, 10:17 AM

So with the return of Tranquil Thicket to the decklists what are people's thoughts on Horizon Canopy? Especially in builds that are also running Crucible.
I used to play a 1/1 split and liked it more than 2 thickets.

And now for something completely different.
I definitely feel the time is right for main deck Chalice. I'm not sure to what extent though. Back during the Treasure Cruise era I played 1 mb and 2 sb. I liked it a lot, as you can get it with Tolaria West or even Intuition in conjunction with Academy Ruins.
However, I’m think that going a step further might be good/correct. One alternative would be going to 2-3 mb and still keeping the Crops, as Phelix is currently testing.

And lastly what I’m considering is going up to 3-4 mb and taking out some/all Crops, is that just too crazy? It feels anathema to even consider taking out the Crops, but that is how I board in more than 50% of the games I play (vs. fair blue decks). Chalice is still a nonbo with Exploration but my reasoning would be that if you have Exploration you’re in a pretty good spot and if you have Chalice, well that just about as good as well. Of course it sucks not being able to Crop for Bog vs. Dredge, Reanimator or grab the Tabernacle vs. some fair non-blue deck etc, but frankly how often does that come up compared to playing vs. Miracles, Grixis etc? And it’s not like Chalice is weak vs. those decks anyway.

So, what are your thoughts? IIRC you used to play a 4x Chalice version Snorlaxcom?
The best answer would obviously be just to test it, but I’ve been abroad for nearly a month now and I’m gonna play in an invitational/league finals shortly after getting back home.
I assume that Omni, Grixis (delver and control) and UWx (miracles, mentor countertop, blade) will, at the very least, be 75% of the meta in that tournament.

n0ct3m89

07-22-2015, 12:04 PM

I am actually testing the same thing. I was playing a smokestack md, but cutting it for cotv i think is the right call at the moment. It gives you additional points against miracles (cantrips, swords, top) as well as a piece of hate against combo g1.

Phelix

07-22-2015, 04:05 PM

n0ct3m89

07-22-2015, 04:29 PM

Not saying cut stack for the matchup, im cutting stack entirely right now. It hasnt been all that fast, and it seems like the meta will start to speed up a bit in response to miracles being everywhere

Phelix

07-22-2015, 06:11 PM

soo i found my little piece of paper from the GP:

The list:

Decklist:

4 life from the loam
4 exploration
3 crop rotation
1 sylvan library
1 worm harvest
3 intuition
3 punishing fire
4 mox diamond
2 engineered explosives
2 chalice of the void

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
2 tolaria west
2 tropical island
1 forest
1 taiga
1 bayou
3 grove of the burnwillows
3 maze of ith
3 fetches
2 thespians stage
1 dark depths
1 tabernacle
1 academy ruins
1 ghost quarter
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
1 urborg, tomb of yawmoth

Sideboard:
2 CHOKE
4 dark confidant
3 sphere of resistance
3 krosan grip
3 Iona, shield of emeria

Clearly this list hates blue. For that reason i cut a tropical to make chokes possible. Whenever chokes go i, 1 trop comes out.

Round 1.
Its burning hot and my opponen never shows. His free bottle of water is my won ante for the match.
1-0

Round 2
R/G Combo lands.
Game 1:
I win the die roll. His first turn reveals what he is on, so I use my second turn to secure a chalice for 1.
My 3rd turn produces Sylvan Library and 4th turn a chalice for 2. He now cannot play any spells and I have an active engine. I win by transmuting twice for combopieces and killing him.

Game 2:
I board in grips and confidants.
Turn 1 I make a chalice for 1, krosan grip his turn 1 exploration to ensure that im ok in the wastewars.
He sticks a seismic assault, but my opener had double krosan grip and I nuke it on the spot.
We waste each other some and as he casts his first life from the loam and double wastes me, I untap and cast bojuka bog, fixing a otherwise sticky situation. I play a second chalice on 1, to avoid grips.

He gets chasm recursion going, but alas can only play 1 land a turn and keeps dredging, going -1 land every turn, giving him no way to win. He did play ghost quarter.

I end up taking him from 20 to 0 with punishing fire.
2-0

Round 3 RUG
My notes are a little.. hard to read.
Game 1: I produce a quick 20/20. He stifles the first stage activation, but it only prolongs the game by a turn. I never attacked his manabase. Winning seemed the better line to play :P

Sideboarding: I bring in Confidants, chokes and 2 sphere of resistance. (-1 tropical island, 1 tolaria west, 1 karakas, 3 intuition, 1 worm harvest and 1 life from the loam).

Game two:
He dazes my turn 1 mox, forces my turn 2 sphere of resistance, dazes my dark confidant on the following turn and dies to a crop rotated 20/20.
Those two games took a total of 24 minutes, including sideboarding!
3-0

Round 4: vs Daniel Norton on Burn
Considering I dont have zuran orb or glacial chasm, and more than 30 nonbasics for his prices, this is not looking good for me.
on turn two i resolve chalice of the void for 2. Giving me a break again price of progress. He already has an eidolon out and my life total is ticking down.
on turn three i cast intuition for combo pieces and on turn 4 i produce a 20/20, that wins on turn 5 while im at 2 life. PHEW!

I board in spheres and pay.
Game two:
I get an early chalice 1 and a sphere. But nothing else. He prices me out the turn i can make a 20/20.

Game 3: I make a 20/20 on turn 3. It gets there. YAY!
4-0

Round 5 vs Alessandro Cattani with Miracles.
Here it is. The matchup everything was about a month ago. The matchup i made myself worse against by cutting smokestack. Before is was winning preboard and heavily winning postboard. Now its still favoured as long as their list is close to that of the Miracle bros. (Tomas Vlcek, Phillipp, etc). Since he is Italian and Ive seen him before, im guessing the talks to Angelo Cadei and that I then probably know his list.

Game 1: He sees that im on lands and still fetches volcanic island. He forces my loam to buy time but cannot deal with the sexyness of my lands and succumbs as I can tap his 3 white sources with ports and produce a 20/20. I board 9 Cards after winning. That is a very nice feeling. (Chokes, grips and confidants)

Game 2: My notes are fuzzy, but looking at life totals the game is short. I do think i remember choking him.
5-0

Round 6. vs Joao Alveirinho with BUG
My notes and my twitter feed has him noted down as a really nice guy. Yes i do say nice things about people from time to time. This guy. Very nice guy.

Game 1: I quickly see he is on BUG and thats so great. We just need to dodge some True Names and we are golden. Ive lost 3 times vs that deck in the last 4 years of playing paper and I remember each time exactly. Once at a sideevent at GP jersey, once at prague eternal and once locally. More than 20 wins. One of the absolute best matchups.

He tries to waste ME and I blow him out by rotating the waste target. He scoops 12 minutes into game one, as he has 0 permanents.
I board in confidants and chokes.

Game 2:
I try to get him to zero permanents again, but he casts life from the loam! lucky as i am i draw bog on the next turn and stop that nonsense.
Choke surprises him and he passes for a few turns, drops a fetch and pops it at my EoT. He finds bayou for his only nonblue land and I crop rotate for wasteland locking him out of ever getting more than 1 mana. He scoops to that fact. 38 minutes still on the clock!
6-0

Round 7: vs Loic from France on Junk or something. Aggroloam maybe? I wanna say junk.
Game 1:
Very very long game where I wastelock him after EE´ing a twice and punishing his deathrites.

I bring in chalices, confidants.

Game 2: He likes to fetch and not deduct life totals. at least not until he finds his lands. Im a little annoying like that and insist he pays the cost of stuff first.
We have a couple of disagreements that I cant really remember. I then cast an engineered explosives for 2. And without putting counters on it I pass the turn. In truth I should put counters on it, but since this is the 3rd EE I play, and I didnt put counters on the other two (that did get popped right away) I feel like we have established this shortcut. He agrees i cast it for two, but calls the judge, debates and the verdict is that its and EE for two. we get 2 minutes extra time. A little later I tap two colorless lands, then two other lands, and announce chalice for 1. He says ok. I put a counter on it and he insists its chalice for 0. I laugh a little at the nonsense and he points to my colorless lands. I say "its not sunburst bro". He takes a full 30 seconds to understand that chalice does not have sunburst.

I get loam engine up, the naturally has bojuka bog in hand. I set it up again two turns later and he naturally has scavenging ooze. I make a 20/20 inside my turn to dodge wastelands and he naturally has lilliana (?) for it.
I play horribly and allow him to resolve deathrite even though I have chalice, since im so blinded that chalice stops swords only. I then look up and say: Time is up! He says "I know". This means he has been paying attention to the time passing but didnt say so. Its not much, but 40 seconds of free time for him. We begin extra turns and I punt for the second time, allowing a pithing needle tru my own chalice like a dork. it blocks my 2 or 3 maze of iths and during the very last turn of overtime he kills me exactly.
The game was good and intense, we were proably both a little unfriendly, but im fuming at my own misplays most of all. How poorly i played. He did have some luck, but so did I in other games. Making 20/20 inside my turn feels correct, even if the other play would have won me the game and gotten me to 7-0.

6-0-1

Round 8 Against another really nice guy with Infect.
Game 1:
I die quickly as he has all the mean stuff.

I bring in spheres, confidants.
Game 2: I mulligan on the play. I keep a 1 lander with mox, loam, chalice, chalice, dark confidant, punishing fire. I never see the second land. I should have mulliganned. any hand with a maze would be better.
6-1-1

Round 9: Vs Kasper Euser with Miracles.
His name reminds me of Kasper Hauser and makes me think of that story every time I see his name. We play some of the same events. He plays well and has an affinity for spicing things up a little.
My notes are nonexistant, but he locks me out of the game quite early. I dig for worm harvest but he has CC 5 when I find it.
I board the usual.

Game two:
He casts 3 surgicals (snapcaster) then drops meddling mage on punishing fire, and I have neither winconditions nor removal.
6-2-1

Didnt make day two. I made 3 mistakes, and I could have avoided that. The first two would have gotten me to 7-0 and a sure day two. Oh wells.

Phelix

07-22-2015, 06:12 PM

If your meta is indeed as miracles heavy, id play maindeck sylvan, smokestack(s?), chalice and worm harvest. That makes you a huge boss in the matchup. (see my list from ovino, its alot like that)

Crimhead

07-24-2015, 07:06 AM

And lastly what I’m considering is going up to 3-4 mb and taking out some/all Crops, is that just too crazy? It feels anathema to even consider taking out the Crops, but that is how I board in more than 50% of the games I play (vs. fair blue decks).
The deck an for years without Crop Rotations, but that was before the Marit Lage combo, and deck's gotten much stronger. If I were to main-deck Chalices, I'd probably go down to two Rotations for one or two CotVs.

Of course your meta is a big factor! In addition to cantrip heavy decks, Chalice is good against Elves, Storm, Burn, and pretty good against painter. But against those decks CR is good too. But its not so good against MUD, D&T, Loam, 12 Post, Fish, and others. So this should be a meta call.

It's worth noting that even in a big screen meta such as SCG there are a lot of rogue decks. According to Reddot data which tracks matches in the big events, any given deck plays over a third of its matches against a rogue deck (marked as other). Chalices main might be good against tyhe top eight, but they might not help us to get that far in tyhe first place.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3cfrxw/scg_legacy_results_for_major_archetypes_dc/

Phelix

07-24-2015, 09:02 AM

Considering we have a maximum of 7 one drops, 4 of those are most often played in first or second turn, im fine w. having them in the main in the current constellation

snorlaxcom

07-28-2015, 02:08 AM

So, what are your thoughts? IIRC you used to play a 4x Chalice version Snorlaxcom?
The best answer would obviously be just to test it, but I’ve been abroad for nearly a month now and I’m gonna play in an invitational/league finals shortly after getting back home.

I played 4x chalice in place of exploration(more on this in sec) before cruise ban. High ratio of one drop decks and fast combo kill in that meta rampant with infect, LOTS of UR, burn, miracles, storm, etc. I only had 3 crops that nombo'd with chalice, but they were mostly meant to have 3 more enablers aka fetching md ancient tomb. List was pretty sweet becuase I had 3 EE to clean up anything that made it onto the board. However, post cruise ban I have come across more 4xFOW builds and have cut rotations all together to not get blown out and fall behind on land drops.

"Wait, but why da fuq you cut exploration? Ur thread sux, N00b."

Aside from starting with a 6 land hand, having more lands in play is completely dependant on resolving loams past t3. I also found myself only seldomly deploying exploration before chalice@1 after boarding. Of course this case is living the dream and one of the most powerful plays we have t1, but again it comes up too infrequently for my taste and I am able to have better topdecks without the conflicting onedrops. Our draw steps are too important to be nombo'd by our own setup. However, I strongly advise against this setup to anyone just starting out with the deck because of how tight you have to manage your resources and mull decisions in the early game without the typical mana accelerants. I have been exclusively on Lands for a bit over two years and I have more experience casting tutors and boarding plans than when I started which make me comfortable not playing the staples.

Went 5-1 in a 46 person event yesterday. I wound up 7th and scored another port for my troubles.

Also Snorlax post your current list? ;)

1 crucible (couldn't find smokestack before event)
3 intuition
3 pfire
4 loam
3 pyrexian revoker
3 EE
4 chalice
4 mox diamond

1 heath
1 foothills
1 catacombs
2 trop
2 taiga
1 savannah
1 forest
3 grove of the burnwillows
2 twest
2 thicket
1 karakas
1 bog
1 academy
2 stage
4 waste
4 port
1 ghost quarter
1 tab
3 maze
1 dd

Sb
4 grip
3 trinisphere
2 choke
2 meddling mage
1 teeg
3 thalia

Rd 1 miracles
G1 he forces early, but I stick a chalice@1 while he attacks me with clique a snapcaster for 10 points. Pfire eats them and Marit eats him a turn later.

G2 he mulls and swords my revoker. Thalia + choke/port get there for the full life total.
1-0

Rd 2 miracles Chris Hawker
G1 forces chalice while I am trying to keep him under ports. He gets top going and entreats 4 angels.

G2 go to work with chalice and revoker. He wears a chalice away and surgicals it. I fail to port one of his 2 untapped lands precombat and he flashes in snap to kill revoker, while surgicaling a third time: chalice, loam, pfire. Snap goes. All. The. Way. Good sb for him because Rip would null his digs and snaps.
1-1

Rd 3 Jund
G1 seizes and goyfs. Kill dude and he sticks bob. It goes unanswered for several turns drawing goyfs.

G2 EE his drs and port manas. Control board with pfire and Marit punches him.

G3 chalice@1, but he gets goyf going. I have EE lock, but then plays ooze with green up. Pfire ooze and take another goyf hit. Sticks a lili. His next turn he goyfs #2 and now I ee at 4 life vs his pfire + grove. Waste him of groves at 3 life and I summon marit.
2-1

Rd 4 merfolk
G1 lords me out of pfire range and no ee in sight. Just pitiful dredging.

G2 t1 relic backed by two needles. No lands for him past island + mutavault, so he names thespian's stage and the on board port. Eot Intuition meets farce of will. Mutavault gets in for some attacks and I grip the relic eot to follow up with ee@1, playing to have mana to port his mana to prevent b2b. Marit lage gets dredged up.

G3 ee away 2 drops and drop choke. Ports start sinkholing him and waste dispatches the occasional nonbasic. Marit is dredged up and deployed.
3-1

Rd 5 RG Combo Lands Kurt Speiss
G1 t1 chalice. We stay on par land wise, but I get a mox and pull ahead on manipulation and dig for bog with thicket. He builds up a waste proof mana base by staging his basic forest. Is fine until I dredge a ghost quarter and go to work at keeping his options in check by making sure he never starts a turn with stage untapped. I mess up when I go to ghost quarter him as he crops and I signal chalice trigger too late. He gets dd and while I'm tapped he main phases the combo. He loams back pieces and passes turn. On my turn I dredge and twest for karakas. I follow up the next turn with a bog. I then stick a revoker on mox, ghost his land, and tap a land on upkeep putting him on 2 colorless lands for the rest of the game. He cycles a thicket with mox and quickly calls a judge on himself. New ruling in place I now see his hand and shuffle a card away. I see 2 pfires, stage, depths, manabond, and some other land. I choose pfire, but realize it doesn't matter as his taigas were boged and revoker is on mox. He concedes shortly after realizing he has no red left for revoker. My missing the chalice trigger allowed him to get the combo assembled, but him losing two lands from that play set me up to win if I could answer Marit. He had to jam marit at this point as is the philosophy of RG when you have a window to pray and win.

G2 I mull to 5 and Kurt goes to 6. He makes a dude before I can react.

G3 t2 Thalia then t3 revoker on mox. I loam an empty yard and he bogs me for little value, just needing the mana next turn. I draw 2 more wastes and he never gets time to turn it around.
4-1

Rd 6 BUrG Justin Miller
G1 t1 waste vs his t1 delver. I fire off waste hoping to mana screw and play around stifle, but he draws another land and blind flipped delver to a bolt. I get two mana and pfire into his brainstorm, but he finds no counters. Probably just bolts and cantrips? He gets drs, but I find a grove, stick chalice at 1, and he concedes upon dredging marit.

G2 3 hits from t1 flipped delver and t2 seize gets a spell. He fires a bolt before I stick a chalice and delver gets lost in a maze. Thalia and revoker come down to finish off the match.
5-1

Go into T8 second which is great, but more importantly I get the play for a chalice t1.

T8 miracles/stoneblade
G1 forces chalice. I ee away counterbalance then tnn. Stoneforge gets bskull and I fail to find removal off my dredges.

G2 he sticks a meddling mage on ee and blanks 2 cards in my hand. I fail to find maze or pfire and can just port tnn off the table. Stoneforge makes it through to shorten the clock. Took out a pfire and a maze too many. ): I take 7th.

Sb was great throughout the day, but 4th grip could be something else and mages do stretch your manabase if you run pfire after boarding. Never tested with this build before the event to sort these out or if md crucible is better than smokestack, but I'll come up with something for SCG DC. Twest:thicket was great all day if you don't do 3 trop. I'm not convinced I can best use canopy here because I don't have multiple land drops and no crops are here for the option of saving a loam from getting targeted. Thicket did the job fine vs drs since it only needed 1 mana and I could keep a basic untapped instead of being forced to have 2 mana up(more susceptible to waste/port even with mox out) to save my loam. I upped the taiga count for more consistent board control via pfire. I couldn't find any sb cards to take advantage of the upped red count. Chalice should be in play, so having a REB or two didn't makes sense if you read the beginning of the post.

Didn't get a chance to play vs S&T, but my friend that T4 the event play tested afterwards and I was pleased with the results after 6 games. Some storm players were in the room, but I'll get them next time. Hehe.

Deck was fun to pick up since I left in February for exams. Good news though, I'll be starting med school in September! :smile: It's in Ecuador, so magic is basically nonexistent there(legacy anyway). :cry: I will come back to play during breaks and I will still manage the forum, but if I need to hand it off I'll ask one of you nice peoples in the future.

n0ct3m89

07-28-2015, 11:13 PM

I am really intrigued by this list snorlax, but I do have a few questions. You say it makes your muligan decisions different based on acceleration. Does this mean you mulligan for mox diamond more? Also if this is the case, wht not still play exploration? Yea yea its a nombo with chalice, but for games where it is imperative to get on board early (delver decks w/o decay, grindhouse decks like dnt, creature combo decks like elves or merfolk, and to a certain extent miracles) it seems like too big of a risk to cut.
Also, how did you like md revoker? Was it worth it over a card like crucible?
How is the burn matchup with chalice? Outside of the obvious t1 on the play, how relevant is chalice over exploration? Do you find it harder to establish chasm locks without exploration?

I have been maindecking trinisphere as of late, and have been overall impressed. It works better with port/wasteland, and also allows you to keep something like exploration in. Thoughts?

Dice_Box

07-29-2015, 01:27 AM

How much of a difference do you feel Stax would have made over Crucible?

snorlaxcom

07-29-2015, 11:16 AM

I would like a crucible because during the second miracles match I had crucible going g1 for a couple turns that could have been hitting his basics and keep entreat under control. It basicaly helps the LD plan without having a fastbond in play and there are enough nonland permanents to play to outpace the sac trigger.

snorlaxcom

07-29-2015, 11:51 AM

You say it makes your muligan decisions different based on acceleration. Does this mean you mulligan from mox diamond more? Also if this is the case, wht not still play exploration? Yea yea its a nombo with chalice, but for games where it is imperative to get on board early (delver decks w/o decay, grindhouse decks like dnt, creature combo decks like elves or merfolk, and to a certain extent miracles) it seems like too big of a risk to cut.
Also, how did you like md revoker? Was it worth it over a card like crucible?
How is the burn matchup with chalice? Outside of the obvious t1 on the play, how relevant is chalice over exploration? Do you find it harder to establish chasm locks without exploration?

I have been maindecking trinisphere as of late, and have been overall impressed. It works better with port/wasteland, and also allows you to keep something like exploration in. Thoughts?

Not mulliganing so much for mox diamond or acceleration, but more like how much disruption the hand has and how much time my removal can buy in order to play a tutor. Depending on the hand make a gameplan. Having more artifacts in general has also made academy much more powerful.

This is where revoker comes in at disrupting the early game drs/tops/D&T/elves and other mu you mentioned. Crucible I was forced to play with, but I'd like to try stack next. Exploration is more of an enabler of Loam than an actual piece of disruption I'm going for. Vs miracles it resolves, but key spells like ee or crucible get forced/counterspelled without fail at this point. Jaming disruption spells vs them blanks half the hand or at least gets two from force, makeing their starting hand worse and increases likely hood of sticking EE. Especially brutal of muligans. Yes they can force Exploration too, but chalice@1 I'd take any day of the week t1. Exploration is better with 2/3 ports in play, but that never solved the entreat problem as the game progressed. Chalice md also means more lock pieces vs delver and they don't have enough counters to stop them all plus handle tab+maze. They can play dig but who cares.

There is no chasm lock because I cut it long ago, but I haven't lost to burn when I played chalice md the last open I played pre-cruise ban in NJ. Outside of burn and infect I don't need it killing land drops and no crops here. EE gets D&T(which have a billion ways to get a land off the table for an alpha strike) and other delver strategies have digs to find waste in a pinch. Very frustrating to lose when I have to pray the blue deck won't draw an answer. Pfire and chalice get dorks. With a smokestack and EE I can answer what ever else maze can't hold off.

I was thinking of changing trinisphere to md instead of crucible for the event, but it is less effective without exploration g1 and it would only be one sphere. Only if it is a real hate card in the mu I'd side it in. Sphere is less flexible. You'd run 2-3? Chalice being tutored via twest was huge, where as sphere has to be drawn/dredged into. Invalidating onedrops for 2 mana was huge. Sphere sounds better in a build with fastbonds, but it still doesn't prevent drs from coming online.

kravkenov

07-30-2015, 05:01 AM

With only 2 Tropical Island, isn't 2 Tolaria West a bit too much ?
Tolaria West is a card I just dont want to draw in the early turn because I'm used to never have enough blue mana to transmute into key land/spell.
When I play against blue deck, I usually side out 1 Tropical Island to board in 1 Savannah and the Choke package.

In the firsts turns, I usually fetch for the basic Forest, then try to build a board lock that give me the time to Intuition into super-lock, or Thespian into Marit Lage. I love the deck, but to be honest, I sadly didn't have yet any kind of success with it. May be I play it wrong... (certainly).

For info, here is my current build : http://cl.ly/text/470l0x3p2a1c/Eternal_Garden_MRK_30-07-2015.txt
The single Ancient Tomb let me play a turn one Chalice if I have Crop Rotation and Chalice in hand.
By the way, I did not yet practice with this version, I were on a old build with only 1 Thespian Stage and 1 Dark Depths, but with singleton Glacial Chasm, Ghost Quarter and a couple of Mishra's Factory, Zuran Orb main, no Chalice but 3 EE... A bit too slow, this is why I pack a 3/3 split of Thespian Stage and Dark Depths, this let you have –some times– a natural combo...

Rivfader

07-30-2015, 05:55 AM

Does Chalice really conflicts that much with exploration and crop rotation? You can cast both of them before playing chalice, and later in the game you're filtering your 1cc spells away with loam (and you have 3cc Intuition to find loam, where gamble is locked out).

@ Mark Kugel: If you try them all together, I'd go full monty and add a fourth exploration and chalice, while cutting Ancient Tomb and moving a Karakas/bog to the side. Your 6 comboslots would probably be better configured in 4Stage/2 Depths. And I'd suggest (trini)spheres instead of Thalia, since the beatdown is probably not worth it in comparison to the 6 slots devoted to Marit Lage, and she requires W, which could be a problem.

kravkenov

07-30-2015, 07:45 AM

What is the advantage to run a 4/2 Thespian/Depths instead of a 3/3 split ?
Only because Dark Depths alone dosent do much, while Thespian alone can
1) produce mana
2) copy an utility land (Port, Wasteland, Maze, etc..)

Ok, while typing this, I think I get it...

What I like with Thalia is that you can play it on turn 1 (with a Mox) and save it from any hate with Karakas.
But I will test with Trinisphere ;)

Rivfader

07-30-2015, 07:49 AM

kravkenov

07-30-2015, 08:19 AM

And Depths is Legendary :tongue:
Yep ;)

Also, few questions about Cycle Land (Tranquil Thicket, Horizon Canopy...). Is it a real necessity ?
I never played without until now, but I saw here and there some list without any kind of Cycle land, and I'm intrigued.
While I'm used to play one Thicket, I dont really tutor for it so many time... it's cool when it is there, but does it really worth 1 or 2 slot ?

n0ct3m89

07-30-2015, 08:32 AM

I never really liked it, but it does have applications. If your meta is rife with drs, it helps save your loams my dredging at instant speed. Same thing also works with targeted fy hate like extraction effects. It also gets around extirpate since the cycle and the subsequent dredge dont use the stack.

kravkenov

07-30-2015, 01:54 PM

It also gets around extirpate since the cycle and the subsequent dredge dont use the stack.

Really ? I thought cycling were an activate ability, it is not ?

snorlaxcom

07-30-2015, 04:54 PM

Incorrect, anything with a colon is an activated abililty. Split second prevents activated abilities. You are thinking about extirpate on pfire. Vs split second spells you can use grove because mana abilities are a special activated ability that does not use the stack, but the resulting trigger from pfire goes onto the stack on top of a split second spell.

n0ct3m89

07-30-2015, 05:20 PM

You are correct, apologies. However my point still works. Its not a very vital puece for this version of the deck(imo) unless you face a large number of targeted gy hate effects

kravkenov

07-31-2015, 03:49 AM

You are correct, apologies. However my point still works. Its not a very vital puece for this version of the deck(imo) unless you face a large number of targeted gy hate effects

Ok, Thanks for the advise ;)

n0ct3m89

07-31-2015, 11:24 AM

So i played another local tourney last night, no changes to my list.

R1 vs storm. Kept a solid hand vs fair decks, only piece of interaction vs him was crop rotation. Bogged him mid combo, but he had the natural tendrils kill.

Out
1 chasm, 3 maze, 1 karakas, 1 stack, 2 ee, 1 pfire, 3 intuition

In
3 bob, 4 sphere of resistance, 2 trinisphere, 2 aethersworn canonist, 1 zuran orb

On the play, t1 exploration mox sphere go. He draws, moves to discard. Kept a hand that relied on probe to draw lands. Cannonist hits, goes the distance as more sphere effects show up.

Sb no changes

Mull to 6, have mox sphere cannonist and lands. He doesnt discard me t1, so i lead t1 canonist. He decays. I go t2 sphere. He decays. By the time i draw another hate card, he has pondered and brainstormed into a good hand, and endstep chains my sphere, untaps and casts ad naus. I have a pfire in my hand so i just hope he hits a 4. He doesnt, starts chaining. I know whats in his hand, so i think he starts slowrolling me. I explain how he wins to him. Come to find out, he messed up and brainstormed away his other tutor (used one for a rit). His very last brainstorm he finds tendrils. Tilt.

R2 sneak n show (md jace)
Blast from the past. I keep a fine hand with t1 loam off mox. He plays jace t3 and brainstorms. I find this odd since i had just fired him for one last turn. Eot burn jace. Untap burn jace. He forces, then brainstorms again. I finally kill jace, but he has lots of land. I start going after his red sources, and he lands another jace. I get him down to one red source, he casts sneak attack. By this point i have found natural karakas, but my mana is really strained because my dredges were terrible . My colored sources are moxen, but i need to set ee on 0 for his lotus petals. He draws multiple petals, and sneaks in emrakul. I karakas. He burns the other peral to replay, and attacks. I maze it, then lose everything except a mox. I untap and can either play a land and loam or keep up fire. I loam. He plays petal, sneaks in griselbrand and draws 7. Shoulda held up fire. He finds his other friend and kills me.

Sb
Out
1x bog, 1x chasm, 2x maze, 1x tabs, 2x ee,2x pfire,

In
3x grip, 4x sphere, 2x cannonist

On the play i keep a slow hand with rotation, loam, wastes and ports. It doesnt matter as he goes t1 blood moon t2 show emrakul. Wheee

R3 vs gu 12 post
My night cant get worse.

Mull to 6, with loam and wastes. He knows what im on, and t1 needles wasteland. Wonderful. I do manage to naturally draw into the combo, but he even has repeal for the token.

Sb
Out
1x tabs, 1x chasm, 1x bog, 2x maze, 3x intuition, 2x ee, 2x pfire

In
2x trinisphere, 4x sphere of resistance, 3x bob, 3x grip

Keep a fine hand with exp loam wastes and tolaria for ee. I do my thing, he eventually finds needle for wasteland. I ee it away, keep him locked under wastes and ports. 3 sphere shows up, and he cant gain any traction and scoops.

Sb no change

G3 mull to 5, keep bob mox wastes ports. I lose to needle but thats a given. He doesnt have it, and i play t1 mox port bob go. I try and slow him down as much as possible, while bob gets me sphere effects and land drops. One of his lands is the karakas, which i snap waste. I finally hit the crop rotation, and endstep rotate into combo, to which he has no responses. He got paired down so i give him the win anyway.

R4 guy just getting back into magic, playing mono blue cards i own. Hes playing cancel and mana leak, so i dont really need to go into this one. 2-0 win. He is a good sport about it, and is chatty about my deck and the format as a whole.

So yea, off night. Spheres are becoming thalias, so sb will look like this

3x bob
3x grip
1x zuran orb
4x thalia
2x canonist
2x 3sphere

intelli78

08-10-2015, 03:32 PM

1 crucible (couldn't find smokestack before event)
3 intuition
3 pfire
4 loam
3 pyrexian revoker
3 EE
4 chalice
4 mox diamond

1 heath
1 foothills
1 catacombs
2 trop
2 taiga
1 savannah
1 forest
3 grove of the burnwillows
2 twest
2 thicket
1 karakas
1 bog
1 academy
2 stage
4 waste
4 port
1 ghost quarter
1 tab
3 maze
1 dd

Sb
4 grip
3 trinisphere
2 choke
2 meddling mage
1 teeg
3 thalia

I met Snorlax earlier this month at an External Extravaganza Satellite tournament, and again yesterday at the DC Open. He's a super nice guy and showed me this Lands deck after we struck up a conversation. It's really an interesting list -- it seems so counterintuitive to chop Explorations and Crop Rotations, since most Lands players would count them among the most powerful cards in the deck. But he's thought it out thoroughly and has very compelling reasons for building the deck this way -- not to mention he's getting results with it. This list deserves a lot more attention than it's gotten so far. It could very well be the future of non-combo Lands.

Here's what I took away from our conversation:

Although the deck doesn't have any "draw spells," it's all about card advantage and has numerous sources of CA. 1) Chalice - can shut off 1/3 or more of your opponent's cards completely, 2) LftL - 3 for 1, 3) Punishing Fire + Grove - duh, 4) EE - duh. You can probably also include Ports and Revokers here because in the end they all do the same thing - make your opponent's cards useless. Chalice is just so good in the current meta.
This deck shores up one of the biggest weaknesses/annoyances with other Lands decks - dredging away non-recurrable cards. In this deck you are dredging a bunch of artifacts instead of enchantments, instants and sorceries. Artifacts that come back w/ Academy Ruins.
No "nonbos" with Chalice + 1 cc cards.
Here's specifically why it can cut Explorations. Exploration is mostly good for two things: 1) accelerating through early turns so you can mana deny opponent with Ports and Wastes while also having enough mana to P-Fire / Maze / EE Delvers, Deathrites etc that slip through 2) recurring double Wastes with Loam later in the game. What Snorlax's deck seems to prove is that with an early Chalice and/or EE, you just don't need the acceleration that Exploration provides. Your Ports and Wastes keep them on 1 mana, and Chalice on 1 prevents them from playing anything at all. 3 EE cleans up anything that does manage to sneak through.
Revoker beats are often enough to seal the deal once the lock is established.

Snorlax - if I have missed any major points or misrepresented anything, feel free to add to what I said.

IMO it's hard to wrap your head around this deck if you're thinking of it as a Lands deck. If you think of it as just a prison deck that shares a lot of cards with Lands, it's easier to make sense of it.

Anyway, I think this list is cutting-edge and deserves more discussion. I'll be trying it out. One thing I am not certain of is whether it's a good choice for average Lands players. Snorlax seems to be doing well with it, but he is definitely an above average Lands player, so it's possible some of his success is in spite of the deck, not because of it. Still, there are good reasons for the deck's design and I am interested to see how it develops.

mgrinshpon

08-10-2015, 05:55 PM

Anyway, I think this list is cutting-edge and deserves more discussion. I'll be trying it out. One thing I am not certain of is whether it's a good choice for average Lands players. Snorlax seems to be doing well with it, but he is definitely an above average Lands player, so it's possible some of his success is in spite of the deck, not because of it. Still, there are good reasons for the deck's design and I am interested to see how it develops.

I think I played against this exact deck round 5 of DC. Just to change things up, I was playing that Aggro Loam deck from GP Lille rather than my usual 4c lands lists. I quickly scooped game 1 after an early Wasteland lock hit and grinded out a miserable 40 minute game 2. We didn't have time for a game 3.

Having played 4c lands before and (seemingly) playing against this, this deck's greatest weakness appears to be games 2 and 3 existing. The glacially slow pace of this deck means that game 1 is the only game there is. Barring combo matchups, I can't see games 2 and 3 happening quickly enough to allow for anything more than that. There's something to be said for avoiding draws.

snorlaxcom

08-11-2015, 10:46 AM

I think I played against this exact deck round 5 of DC. Just to change things up, I was playing that Aggro Loam deck from GP Lille rather than my usual 4c lands lists. I quickly scooped game 1 after an early Wasteland lock hit and grinded out a miserable 40 minute game 2. We didn't have time for a game 3.

Having played 4c lands before and (seemingly) playing against this, this deck's greatest weakness appears to be games 2 and 3 existing. The glacially slow pace of this deck means that game 1 is the only game there is. Barring combo matchups, I can't see games 2 and 3 happening quickly enough to allow for anything more than that. There's something to be said for avoiding draws.

I was standing behind my friend watching your g2 because I just 2-0 Shardless BUG putting me at 4-1. The deck is not slow in my experience and with over 30 matches I've only had two draws where i was swinging with marit for lethal in T6 in both cases(in earlier testing). He was using my list and he definitely misplayed by not playing twest(traditionally used to transmute in auto-piliot) before academy to sweep bobs off the table by recurrring his EE. He punted there and paid for it by allowing bobs to flip for turns allowing multiple slaughter games to be cast. He would have then had EE setup to blow up knights and continue to beat with bskull, but yes that wasn't the conclusion of the match. As I mentioned earlier the land drop sequencing is even more critical here and he payed for it. Side note is that each of his turns were quicker than yours and his dexterity made it immediately apparent he had more proficiency casting loam, ie. having gy already spread to see all targets and already think beforehand what to bring back for the next turn.

Shaheen's scg article this week(http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31352_Format-Problems-And-Solutions.html) is quite upsetting and he asks to get top and, more importantly, loam banned because of time constraints. If this absurd notion gains any positive traction I'm done with magic, since Lands is the only deck I play now. I commented on there, but it's unfortunate that people are just starting to pick up Tabernacles and want to play in competitive events and now he's calling for the deck to be axed. He might be sour at losing to it who knows judging from his manabase, but this is a huge concern for the health of the format if people have this much influence via social media that they are able to get people and cards banned.

Nice meeting you too intelli78 and thanks for the conversation and the smokestack!

blubberpompnao

08-12-2015, 09:54 PM

Hey everyone, newbie Lands player here. I've read a good chunk of this thread and still have some questions regarding this wonderful deck. First off I'm planning on playing at GP Seattle/Tacoma with the deck and right now I'm in the process of buying the cards I need and testing on things like xmage and cockatrice while I can. I've based my list heavily off of Phelix's version and I've been having a ton of fun with it.

The list i'm planning on running.

4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
3 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Library
1 Worm Harvest
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Smokestack
1 Chalice of the Void

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
3 Windswept Heath
2 Thespians Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth

SB:
2 Choke
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Iona, Shield of Emeria

A quick couple things. I'm running Sylvan Library, and I've really not liked it whenever its been cast. I feel like that slot would be better as a Crucible of Worlds or even a second Chalice of the Void. Why is it so popular? My next question involves the differences between this deck and the slightly more popular RG Combo Lands version that you see putting up results on SCG now. What's the main reason to play this version over that one?

n0ct3m89

08-12-2015, 10:11 PM

One thing to make sure to do is play multiple types of fetches. Keeps your fetches from being needled, and gives a few percentage points against extraction effects at no cost. I would also play glacial chasm as a new lands player. It can help you out of sticky situations

Sylvan library is a personal choice i feel. I have tested a bit with it and it never felt that important. It helps when you are digging for business and is an additional engine for when loam gets hit. I always felt crucible to be a bit redundant but try it out, see if you like it.

Why play this deck over rg? This deck breaks out of locks easier, has much more flexibility in dealing with unique situations common to legacy (rg just really tries to jam a 20/20 as fast as it can), and has a much easier time with hate than rg.

blubberpompnao

08-12-2015, 10:50 PM

movingtonewao

08-12-2015, 11:54 PM

snorlaxcom

08-13-2015, 05:41 AM

Anen

08-13-2015, 05:42 AM

Having said that I've been trying out a couple of cards:
Kessig Wolf Run -> to make sure marit lage wins (just use X=0)
Diamond Valley -> as a get out of jail card in lieu of zuran orb when we can make a token but see a bunch of chump blockers on the other side and our life is low

If anyone would like to try these cards please feel free.

That sounds overkill. Shouldn't you be winning with Marit Lage on the board? Chump blockers die to the fire.

Dice_Box

08-13-2015, 06:10 AM

Valley seams silly. It's a rare situation that it's usefulness will come up and better cards will be more useful more often.

n0ct3m89

08-13-2015, 08:08 AM

Thanks for the reply. A few more questions about what you said though. What would you cut for Glacial Chasm? Maybe that Sylvan Library I dislike? Ehh ehh? Or if not what else? What should replace the Library if I don't like it.

Also, what do you mean it breaks out of locks easier (rg I mean).

The thing is, the list you chose to start with is based off a highly personalized list. He has figured out exactly how he likes his deck and what he wants his gameplan to be, based on lots of games (thus the more unique card choices). If i were you, start with a more fundamental list. Get to know it, then start personalizing. So technically, you could cut anything for chasm, but i would start with a list like this:

3 fetch
3 trop
1 taiga
1 forest
1 bayou
3 grove
4 waste
4 port
1 ghost quarter
1 tabernacle
1 chasm
3 maze
1 academy ruins
1 karakas
1 bog
2 twest
2 depths
2 stage

4 exploration
3 crop rotation
3 intuition
3 ee
3 pfire
4 mox
4 loam
1 zuran orb

This is about as basic as the deck gets. Start here, learn how to create the locks, which lands to prioritize in which matchups, etc. A big thing to get a handle on is when to and when not to dredge. There are times when you have a handful of lands, and digging for busines means needing to draw a tutor or exploration effect. Stuff like that

As snorlax said, rg lands is cold to ensnaring bridge game 1. That coupled with creature decks flooding the board around pfire (merfolk, elves, sometimes dnt) can give a rg lands deck fits. If the opponent is prepared to deal with the token (more people nowadays are) then rg lands is stuck firing everything. Ee COMPLETELY wins matchups like that by itself, which is why i am so fond of this lands build (that, and i get to play a sweet 5 color monstrosity)

kravkenov

08-13-2015, 10:28 AM

//SPELLS
4 Mox Diamond
3 Exploration
3 Punishing Fire
3 Crop Rotation
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Chalice of the Void

//LANDS
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

//SIDEBOARD
3 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Trinisphere
1 Zuran Orb
1 Smokestack

This is the RUG version I play for a while, and it goes pretty well.
Sometimes, it happens to draw one or two "dead cards" because of Chalice, but really, it dosent happens that much.

I dont have Chalice and Crop Rotation / Exploration turn 1 every games
If I can play Chalice turn 1 or 2, it's ok to have 6 dead cards in the deck... (it's often far less than my opponent..)

With 4 Stage and 2 Depth, the combo is much more reliable. To make room for these 3 cards (I was already playing 2 Stage and 1 Depths), I cutted Glacial Chasm, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Ghost Quarter.

Chasm and Urborg : with less Crop Rotation and a possible nobo with Chalice, Chasm and Bojuka lose lot of they power
Ghost Quarter : We are already good armed against opponent lands, and to help there is 3 Choke and a Smokestack in the sideboard

Only 1 Engineered Explosive :
To be honest, this is the only point I dont like. I really want to push the count up to 3, but I cant (yet) accept to cut more Crop Rotation nor Exploration :/ May be later, when I will be playing with more confidence.

All in all, this is also a good 75. I will bring it in my next tournament (arround +60 people) and see how I (it) perform with it (me).

snorlaxcom

08-13-2015, 10:50 AM

Great run there. A couple questions here:

1) Could you share how you sideboarded in each of the matchups?

2) How would you compare this deck to regular combo lands in terms of matchups (+/- %s)

Miracles: Should have boarded differently for my last match, but didn't realize his exact strategy and I took out too many fires. Still adjusting to mentor meta.
-3 Intuition
-2 Pfire
-2 Loam
-3 Maze
-1 Tabernacle
-1 Bog
+4 Grip
+2 Choke
+3 Thalia
+1 Teeg
+1 Mage

Jund: I'm geared to smash it anyway. Cast Intuition safely behind chalice.
-1 Intuition
-1 Bog
+2 Krosan Grip(for library and needle on your EE)

Merfolk: Look out for b2b and get a mox or forest out.
-3 Intuition
-4 Chalice
-1 Crucible
-1 Loam
-1 Bog
+4 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+3 Thalia
+1 Mage

RG Lands
-3 Maze
-3 Pfire
-1 EE
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Thalia
+2 Mage

BURG Delver: DRS had me keep revokers in
-3 Intuition
-1 Bog
+1 Trinisphere
+3 Thalia

Missed day 2 of past open off a punt vs elves and ended up 5-4 Saturday. Beat 2 Omni, Faieries, Reanimator, Shardless BUG, while losing to Omni, infect(mull to 4 g3...), MUD(just a prison game), and elves. Previous week went 3-1-2 with both draws coming from being rusty and attacking with locked down board(been off for 6months :/), but got a Taiga and Savannah from going 14th. On Sunday legacy events I went 7-0 vs belcher, 4c delver, Lam Phan and his UR control deck form GP NJ t8, hightide, Aggro Loam, and 2 ANT. Currently 30-10-3.

% wise I'm not sure where to gauge it. Physical dexterity and familiarity with the list has helped as the reps have set in, but I'm not sure where the ceiling is for the deck % wise as I keep improving at land sequencing post board. I haven't done more than a play test game with RG and wasn't interested in the deck afterwards. If people keep doing broken shit then I'm going to be on this. I miss playing with my Korean explorations, though. :cry:

CptHaddock

08-14-2015, 09:32 AM

Miracles: Should have boarded differently for my last match, but didn't realize his exact strategy and I took out too many fires. Still adjusting to mentor meta.
-3 Intuition
-2 Pfire
-2 Loam
-3 Maze
-1 Tabernacle
-1 Bog
+4 Grip
+2 Choke
+3 Thalia
+1 Teeg
+1 Mage

Jund: I'm geared to smash it anyway. Cast Intuition safely behind chalice.
-1 Intuition
-1 Bog
+2 Krosan Grip(for library and needle on your EE)

Merfolk: Look out for b2b and get a mox or forest out.
-3 Intuition
-4 Chalice
-1 Crucible
-1 Loam
-1 Bog
+4 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+3 Thalia
+1 Mage

RG Lands
-3 Maze
-3 Pfire
-1 EE
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Thalia
+2 Mage

BURG Delver: DRS had me keep revokers in
-3 Intuition
-1 Bog
+1 Trinisphere
+3 Thalia

Missed day 2 of past open off a punt vs elves and ended up 5-4 Saturday. Beat 2 Omni, Faieries, Reanimator, Shardless BUG, while losing to Omni, infect(mull to 4 g3...), MUD(just a prison game), and elves. Previous week went 3-1-2 with both draws coming from being rusty and attacking with locked down board(been off for 6months :/), but got a Taiga and Savannah from going 14th. On Sunday legacy events I went 7-0 vs belcher, 4c delver, Lam Phan and his UR control deck form GP NJ t8, hightide, Aggro Loam, and 2 ANT. Currently 20-7-2

% wise I'm not sure where to gauge it. Physical dexterity and familiarity with the list has helped as the reps have set in, but I'm not sure where the ceiling is for the deck % wise as I keep improving at land sequencing post board. I haven't done more than a play test game with RG and wasn't interested in the deck afterwards. If people keep doing broken shit then I'm going to be on this. I miss playing with my Korean explorations, though. :cry:
-
Were you the RUGb lands player that I was joking around with at the start of the event about playing "real" lands?

As someone new to this deck is the general sideboard plan to board out intuitions in matchups where your opponent will run counter magic?

snorlaxcom

08-14-2015, 09:51 AM

-
Were you the RUGb lands player that I was joking around with at the start of the event about playing "real" lands?

As someone new to this deck is the general sideboard plan to board out intuitions in matchups where your opponent will run counter magic?

That was probably me.

Roughly, yes. In blue tempo matches they come out because the time spent setting up will be better dealt with from your opp, especially on the draw, and I prefer business spells in the slot because my other cards serve as intended. I would keep one(max) on the play. Vs delver I sometimes don't need to cast it. They are fine as tutors vs combo.

kravkenov

08-18-2015, 06:59 AM

RG Lands
-3 Maze
-3 Pfire
-1 EE
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Thalia
+2 Mage
Against RG Lands, why do you board out Maze ?
I would board out Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog (or a Grove if you dont play Bojuka) and Academy Ruins instead... no ?

n0ct3m89

08-18-2015, 08:12 AM

Against RG Lands, why do you board out Maze ?
I would board out Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog (or a Grove if you dont play Bojuka) and Academy Ruins instead... no ?

Maze does almost nothing against the infinite wasteland deck. Once marit hits, you need to find karakas. The easiest way is to fight the wasteland/port/gq war and keep them off of any relevant card. I usually attack g mana sources, since they are more easily wasted off colors than we are.

I personally would cut 1x tab 2x maze to hedge, but never......ever.......cut bog. A big part of the matchup is who bogs the other faster. Ruins is fine for cycling hate like chalice (hurts them more than you) and ee so it has uses

snorlaxcom

08-18-2015, 12:21 PM

Against RG Lands, why do you board out Maze ?
I would board out Tabernacle, Bojuka Bog (or a Grove if you dont play Bojuka) and Academy Ruins instead... no ?

It is only useful when they combo and if they aren't that much of a n00b they will have some form of mana manipulation. This is a race for board control and not making a token since we are both well equipped to answer it.

Why would you board out bog again? Academy I could never see boarding out in any matchup. Grove is a possibility if you cut all pfires, but I like maxing out my green sources.

Phelix

08-18-2015, 03:09 PM

It is only useful when they combo and if they aren't that much of a n00b they will have some form of mana manipulation. This is a race for board control and not making a token since we are both well equipped to answer it.

Why would you board out bog again? Academy I could never see boarding out in any matchup. Grove is a possibility if you cut all pfires, but I like maxing out my green sources.

Arguably against some combo academy is too slow and your hate is good enough. But yeah, dont take it out here and CERTAINLY dont take out bog, its one of the key cards in the matchup.

kravkenov

08-18-2015, 04:30 PM

Yes, I didnt think enough about Bojuka Bog. It is clear I have to keep it in.
Academy is a bit slow against RG Lands, but as is Tolaria... I didnt playtest a lot against RG Lands, and my opponent were not a very well experienced player with it, so his game play was to make the Marit Lage asap. This is why I didnt understand why to move Maze out.

n0ct3m89

08-18-2015, 07:51 PM

blubberpompnao

08-25-2015, 12:40 AM

Anyone play at Eternal Weekend? It's super discouraging seeing only RG Lands show results from what I've seen. I get that their are more people playing it and all but there has got to be a reason more people are playing it, right?

I've really enjoyed playtesting and practicing with the deck and I have way more fun playing the RUGx version than I do playing RGCL, but it feels shitty knowing that when I go into GP Seat/Tac that I may just be going in with an inferior version.

kravkenov

08-25-2015, 04:44 AM

RUGx Lands is a heavy strong control deck, and it takes time to 1) play it correctly 2) take the board control.
At the moment, the metagame is full of faster deck (fast combo, and faster control). I think the better RUGx build to fight these decks are the 4x Chalice configuration. Because of Chalice, the deck lose Rotation. Tutoring is still available with Tolaria West and Intuition.

Did you try the more prison oriented RUGx Lands ? Snorlax has a good start of how to build it (on page 22 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28107-Deck-Lands&p=895906&viewfull=1#post895906)).

From my humble experience, Chalice really helps and dosent hurt us too much, even with 4x Exploration. Snorlax build goes a bit ahead with absolutely no one-cmc.

Here is my current build (with a 3/3 split Chalice and Explosives) :

//Maindeck
4 Mox Diamond
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Exploration
3 Punishing Fire
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Tropical Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

//SIDEBOARD
3 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
4 Trinisphere
1 Zuran Orb
1 Smokestack
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Again, as we spoke with snorlax (ok, only a couple of private messages ^^) "each Lands build is a reflection of the player and his or her experience with each matchup".
Snorlax goes full Chalice and no Exploration. I didn't make this step yet and while I was a bit afraid to not play Rotation, this version found the combo without any problem with the help from Tolaria and Intuition, and sometimes even naturally (thx to 4x Stage and 2x Depths). I dont feel bad with the nobo between Chalice and Exploration as both are must-answer spells, and you are usually in a good shape if you stick an early Chalice at one.

snorlaxcom

08-25-2015, 06:03 PM

I went 4-3 in trial, 5-4-2 for the saturday main event, and 4-3-1 on sunday 40 duals. Boneheaded mistakes were made, but I had some great games with some cool wizards. In retrospect I was too lenient on slow play and should call more people out. Losses and draw to some favorable matchups stung on Saturday: UG Cloudpost, RG Lands, Shardless BUG, BUG Delver(draw), BG Maritocracey(draw). It was unreal how hard I had to double mulgian for colors, but I have also had events where I barely went to 6. The cost of not playing Brainstrom. If you have enough practice with Lands you should still be fine in this meta as it has been well positioned for some time now, but I recommend 4pfire. Loss vs Omin prompted me to go 4 trini for Sunday since I have only lost to them off of a casted Emrakul. Thalia has been exceptional otherwise vs them and grixis delver. I might make it to up to the NJ IQ this Sunday.

ESG

08-25-2015, 09:03 PM

It was unreal how hard I had to double mulgian for colors, but I have also had events where I barely went to 6. The cost of not playing Brainstrom.

I believe Antonius tested Brainstorm in an earlier incarnation of this deck (from the old Lands thread) and found it pretty good, but obviously that's not how most lists ended up. Personally, I'm willing to retry the card in playtesting, but I suspect it would push the deck toward a Farmville-style build.

Chatto

08-26-2015, 01:00 AM

(...) a Farmville-style build.

Quick question: why did Farmville never got more attention? Or did I just missed the debate?

n0ct3m89

08-26-2015, 08:04 AM

To me it was just a worse version of other lands lists. It played force, brainstorm, verdict, and ponder as its only blue cards which never acomplished much of anything. Without access to pfire, it lost harder to thalia and tempo style decks while simultaneously getting pushed around by hard control since its top end was much worse without port

kravkenov

08-31-2015, 08:23 AM

Hi guys, next saturday, I will be playing Lands in a Legacy tournament (around 80+ people registered).

I would ask you some helps for side boarding options.
My list is more or less the same (as posted #462). Depend on the meta, I might -1 Tolaria +1 Thicket.

// MAINDECK
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
3 Punishing Fire
2 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

//SIDEBOARD
3 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Zuran Orb
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Smokestack

Here is how I plan to sideboard. I did this list with the help of Snorlax advises. If you thing there is anything to add (cards, strategy, etc), please welcome.

STONEBLADE (UWR)
Choke and Port. Set Chalice @1. Keep Krosan Grip for Batterskull and Rest in Peace. Dont let key-pieces in graveyard (to prevent Rest in Peace).
+3 Choke
+3 Grip
-1 Crop
-2 Intuition
-1 Bojuka
-1 Depths
-1 Karakas

MIRACLE (UWR)
Choke and Port. Keep Krosan Grip for Counterbalance. Use Smokestack to keep him low in Lands. Ghost Quarter they Plains. If you need to dredge Life from the Loam against a Vendilion : draw, then cycle (dredging into Life from the Loam), and then play Life. You didn’t pass the priority after dredging, so you will be able to play Life from the Loam « safely ».
+3 Choke
+4 Grip
+2 Revoker (Sensei Top, Jace)
+1 Smokestack
-3 Crop
-1 Exploration
-2 Intuition
-1 Bojuka
-2 Maze
-1 Karakas

DEATH AND TAXES (W)
Set Chalice @1. Revoker for Vial. Grip for Batterskull and Rest in Peace. Punishing/Explosives loop. Warning Flickerwisp on Mox or vialed-in-play to remove the token. Dont let key-pieces in graveyard (to prevent Rest in Peace).
+4 Grip
+2 Revoker
-2 Mox
-1 Loam
-1 Urborg
-2 Wasteland

MERFOLK (U)
+3 Choke
+3 Grip
+1 Zuran Orb
-1 Bojuka
-1 Karakas
-2 Wasteland
-3 ???

OMNI SHOW (UR)
Choke and Port. Set Chalce @1. Keep Krosan Grip for Omniscience. Put Sphere in play with they Show and Tell (they HAVE TO pay the additional cost, even under Omniscience), recure it with Academy if needed before Marit Lage.
+3 Choke
+4 Grip
+4 Sphere
-3 Crop
-2 Punishing Fire
-1 Explosives
-3 Maze
-1 Bojuka
-1 Waste

GRIXIS CONTROL (UBR)
Choke and Port they Island, Chalice @1. Use Tabernacle and Sphere to slow them. Explosives lock. They usually dont have Wasteland at all. Bojuka will make they Dig Trough Time hard to cast.
+3 Choke
+2 Grip
-1 Crop
-1 Loam
-1 Bojuka
-1 Depths
-1 Stage

TEMPO DELVER (UBR/RUG/BUG/BURG)
Choke and Port. Explosives lock. Warning they usually have Wasteland.
+3 Choke
-1 Intuition
-1 Bojuka
-1 Karakas (if Tasigur, then cut Intuition)

ELVES (GB)
Set Chalice @1. Get Tabernacle out. Punishing/Explosives loop.
+4 Sphere
+2 Revoker (Insect / Manadork)
-1 Loam
-1 Bojuka
-1 Depths
-3 Maze
In case of Null Rod/Needle
+2 Grip
-2 Stage

JUNK BLOODBRAID CASCADE (RGB)
Kill Shaman and keep Tarmogoyf in check. Krosan Grip on Null Rod, Needle, GY hates, Sylvan Library.
+3 Grip
-1 Bojuka
-1 Karakas (if no Tasigur)
-1 Urborg

JUNK SHARDLESS CASCADE (BUG)*
Choke and Port. Kill Shaman and keep Tarmogoyf in check. Krosan Grip on Null Rod, Needle, GY hates, Sylvan Library.
+3 Choke
-1 Bojuka
-1 Karakas (if no Tasigur)
-1 Urborg

LANDS COMBO (RG)
Set Chalice @1. Waste lock. Bojuka Bog to exile engine.
+3 Grip (Mox, Exploration)
+4 Sphere
+1 Zuran Orb
-1 Explosives
-3 Punishing Fire
-2 Maze
-1 Tabernacle
-1 Urborg

INFECT (UG)
Set Chalice @1. Choke and Port. Keeps spells and lands interactions on each of their creatures, each turn. Change timing of each piece of interaction.
+3 Choke
+4 Sphere
-3 Intuition
-1 Loam
-1 Bojuka
-1 Depths
-1 Karakas

ANT/TES STORM COMBO (UBR/UBRG)
Set Chalice @1. Slow them with Spheres. Keep Crop Rotation for Bojuka mid combo.
+3 Choke
+4 Sphere
-2 Punishing Fire
-3 Maze
-1 Tolaria
-1 Karakas

REANIMATOR
Set Chalice @1. Tutor for Bojuka/Karakas.
+3 Choke
+2 Grip (Needle)
+4 Sphere
-3 Exploration
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Grove
-1 Stage
-1 Urborg

kravkenov

09-05-2015, 05:02 PM

Howdy Folks,

Here we are, my very first top8 in a tournament ! I'm very happy :)

So, I played Lands (obv). Here is the list :

2 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
3 Punishing Fire
2 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Zuran Orb
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Smokestack

I made top 8 with a sweet 4-0 run, and then I.D. into top 8.
There was 54 players, which mean 6 rounds of intense magic.

Round 1, 2-1 vs Reanimator "home made"
Game 1) I kept a nice hand with acceleration and Explosive lock, but my opponent quickly entomb and reanimate a Grave Titan, which is out of range of my Explosives... I didn't have the time to do anything and his Titan eat all my HP.

in : 4 Sphere of Resistance, 3 Choke
out : 1 Stage, 2 Explosives, 1 Tabernacle, 2 Punishing, 1 Grove

Game 2) This game took time... I mean, so much time... My opponent played very slowly. I ask him several time to play faster, but eh... He play the clock. I kept a good hand and lead with Land, Mox, Sphere. He play a land and pass. I then start to slowly lock the game with Port, wasteland and co. 40 minutes later, I finally found the lands and rip off all his HP.
I ask him if he really want to play the 3th game, and he say "of course, my deck can kill you in just few turns !". So we play the 3th game.
Game 3) My starting hand was incredible, turn 3 kill ;)

1-0 (2-1)

Round 2, 2-0 vs Infect
Game 1) I kept a good hand with Fetch, Taiga, Tolaria, Life and 3 other cards. He starts and lead with Noble Hierarch.
I play Taiga and go. He attack with Hierarch, and play Inkmoth and go. I draw a nothing interesting, play a land and pass the turn.
He attack with his Inkmoth and play the +4/+4... I really think it was over, but hopefully he dosent have Berserker.
I finally dredge into Wasteland, and it close the game. Few dredge after, I manage to establish an Explosives lock, and eventually make the token to win the game.

in : 4 Sphere, 3 Choke
out : 2 Punishing, 2 Maze, 1 Tolaria, 1 Karakas, 1 Bojuka

Game 2) Superfast hand with a turn 3 kill

Round 3, 2-0 vs Deathblade 4 colors
Game 1) I kept a hand with all the good stuff : Life, Grove, Punishing, Tropical, Tolaria, Exploration and Explosives.
He start with Shaman, but without fetching. I play Tropical, Exploration and Grove. I kill his Shaman the next turn and start dredging. Few turn later, I Loam into the first piece of the combo, then the second wich close the game soon after.

in : 3 Choke, 4 Sphere
out : 1 Karakas, 1 Bojuka, 1 Thespian, 1 Crop, 1 Tolaria, 1 Depts, 1 Life

Game 2) A good starting hand with Grove and Punishing. No combo but Tolaria and Life.
He start to play with a land and pass. Nothing happened during few turn, and eventually I drop a Choke while he was full taped. A really good move because I have Port in play and he has to fetch for basics lands. He dosent have much and he is really slowed. I eventually make a 20/20 but it sadly get promptly sworded. It ok, I Loam and redo the thing for the win.

Round 4, 2-1 vs Jund? (BGR)
I played against a good guy I meet here and there.
Game 1) I have the nuts and kill him by turn 4.

in : 3 Grip
out : 1 Bojuka, 1 Karakas, 1 Stage

Game 2) This game was a remake of round 1. A game that never ends. I get Choked (!!!) and this really slowed me down. I find a window to make something good, but I lose my concentration and play the wrong land at a crucial point, which cost me the game (not saying I would have won this round, but this would put me in a waaaay more better position).

Game 3) As I said, a remake of round 1 ! I superfast starting hand, and kill turn 3 ;)

Here we are, following the standing, with 2 I.D. I'm in top8.

1/4 Final, 0-2 vs Jund? (BGW)
I was a bit nervous and kept really poor hand and get punished (twice). Nothing to say but mulligan !
My opponent is a well-know player, he ends almost always into the top8...
So, I ended 6th of 54, which is not bad (in fact, it is one of my best finish !).

About the deck :

Only 2 Intuition is ok. I never miss the 3th.
No Trankquil Thicket : no problem, I just really carefully play my spells to avoid graveyard hates.
3 Tolaria West : this card is awesome, but a bit slow. I think 2 Tolaria is enough.
3 Crop Rotation were exactly what I need. Never too much, never too less.
3 Exploration were ok, but I really want a 4th.

My adjustment for the next tournament :

+1 Exploration
-1 Unknow (may be going down to 2 Crop...)

MVP : Academy/Explosives lock
MVP Sideboard : Sphere, Choke, Grip

Thx for reading ;)

kravkenov

09-07-2015, 10:10 AM

grmpytopdecker

09-07-2015, 05:33 PM

Worm Harvest is good tech against Miracles, not sure how it lines up against Junk decks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

blubberpompnao

09-07-2015, 09:30 PM

n0ct3m89

09-07-2015, 10:00 PM

Because.....that always happens? Nothing spoiled has been remotely playable in legacy, especially here. So dont hold your breath (i can dream of a land that taxes spells)

kravkenov

09-08-2015, 03:59 AM

Hey I'm surprised there's pretty much been no discussions about BFZ at all. Especially because this thread is about a deck called LANDS and Battle for Zendikar is essentially a LANDS matter set. I mean we've already had one manland spoiled in our colors. But besides that is anyone excited for anything? Or more so, is anyone hoping for something specific? Maybe for the BG Manland to be good? Or for some sweet landfall card?

Let's get the discussions a going!

This is because (as n0ct3m89 said), the lands spoiled edition after edition are rarely better than the lands the deck already run.
I dream of a "super-fetch" to tutor any of our lands, an Academy Ruins (kind-of) for spells (recurring an enchantement would be huuuuge), or as said before, a land to taxe spells.... but I doubt any of those will ever be printed. Our manlands choice is already very strong with Mishra Factory, Criping Tar Pit or the sweet combo Stage/Depths. Be sur if any new land printed is better/stronger, it will be run ;)

CptHaddock

09-08-2015, 06:24 PM

Also a quick question : Do you think Worm Harvest can take place into the sideboard ? Or the graveyard hates on games 2 and 3 makes the card not worth a slot in sideboard... In fact I ask myself what cards can Lands play to beat BGW (Jund or Junk, I never remember the difference between these two).

Late congratulations on your top 8 markkugel! If we're talking about maverick (WGb) I think the best options that we have post board are things like cursed totem and maybe a board wipe like deluge or perish. In my experience this match just comes down to whoever gets established first. Luckily we have things like engineered explosives to take care of creatures that get too big for punishing fire, and punishing fire to take care of the rest. Postboard they get things like pithing needle and surgicals. I don't really have much experience with DGA (BWg) or Rock (BGw) strategies to speak on those but I imagine that they will play out a bit like maverick depending on the utility creatures that they run.

kravkenov

09-09-2015, 02:09 AM

Thanks ! I think I just kept poor hands both of the games. I was nervous, there were a lot of people around watching our games, and I'm just not (yet) used to play in top8 ^^

kravkenov

09-12-2015, 08:56 AM

Does any one already tested Gamble instead of Crop into the RUG Control (Intuition) Lands ?
Because Gamble could act as pseudo Loam #5 & #6, and if our Loam engine is already set, searching for a lands card is almost as good as Crop, even if it get discarded.
It add tutor for cards like Explosive, Chalice and Zuran Orb (which can be recurred with Academy), or Instant cards like Grip or Decay, etc...
I won't give all the things Gamble can do and not Crop and vice-versa, because I think everybody know what the two cards are capable of.

I didn't see any kind of discussion about Gamble in this thread, as lot of people think Gambe=R/G Combo, but I do believe it can add some value to our beloved Control deck.

What do you think about ? Already tested ? Any thoughts to share ?

Sockosensei

09-12-2015, 09:10 AM

kravkenov

09-12-2015, 11:09 AM

Thank you, I read the page (and following pages) but it's more about Gamble + Crop. I wonder if playing Gamble instead Crop worth it in our RUG Control Lands.
It does help a bit reading those pages because Gamble open more side boarding options, but lose the catcha Crop provide.
I will make some playtests in my friends circle, if it goes well, hope to test it in tournament soon.

For info, here is my actual list :

2 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
3 Punishing Fire
2 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Tolaria West
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Choke
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb

From my last Top8, the change are
-1 Crop for 4th Exploration
-1 Taiga for 1 Bayou (because of Decay in side)
-4 Grip for 4 Decay

If I run Gamble instead of Crop, I will probably go to 2 Taiga (-1 Tolaria West).

n0ct3m89

09-17-2015, 06:03 PM

Woah. Ive been begging for this card for years, and it finally happened

Blighted fen
Tap:add 1
4b tap sac: target player sacrifices a creature.

Oh yea, this is a game changer. Kills reanimated fatties, kills tnn, kills most of the creatures in mud. Im so on board

Anen

09-17-2015, 08:58 PM

blubberpompnao

09-18-2015, 05:26 AM

From my last Top8, the change are
-1 Crop for 4th Exploration
-1 Taiga for 1 Bayou (because of Decay in side)
-4 Grip for 4 Decay

If I run Gamble instead of Crop, I will probably go to 2 Taiga (-1 Tolaria West).

Still newish to the deck, why the change from Grips to Decays?

kravkenov

09-18-2015, 06:25 AM

Grip kill just about everything that is Enchantment or Artifact and dosent get answered because of split second. But it sadly limited to Enchantments and Artifacts...
Decay is much more versatile and helps to fight decks running too many things as it can hit almost everything. It's a great tool but you need black, which is less confortable than Grip.
I made the switch because I was maybe a bit upset from my lose against Knight of the Reliquary.. I never run the 4color Lands, so I will see if it adds more than Grip or not.
But to be honest, I really want to stay in RUG color... so Decay might not stick in my 75 for too long time. And Explosives also helps to kill most of the things that Krosan Grip or Abrupt Decay can't.

Also I tested the 2 Gamble instead of 2 Crop configuration. I'm not happy with it. Gamble is a super early turns tutor. But in the early turns, I usually dont know yet what is the best card to fight opponent's deck, or dont have to tutor yet because I take the board advantage.

I'm still thinking about Revoker/Choke...
In the 3 Revoker slot (in my sideboard), I tested Molten Vortex, which is very strong against creatures deck or tempo deck. But these matchups are already positives.
I thought about a kind of hard to answer Artifact creature (Batterskull, Wurmcoil Engine,...) but didn't test it. The life gain is also a good point ;)
Choke was good, but I wonder if with these 6 slot (Revoker + Choke) there is not a better configuration... Cursed Totem (as said before),

For now, my sideboard is

4 Krosan Grip (or Abrupt Decay)
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Curesed Totem
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Zuran Orb
2 Free slot ? any idea ?

One more Dark Depths and a Crop Rotation to make the deck a bit faster ? Or more control cards like 2 Chalice or 2 Trinisphere.

Alexeezay

09-20-2015, 06:18 PM

Dosferra

09-21-2015, 12:13 PM

I also played a 4x Exploration 4x Chalice list this weekend. Finished 1st in the swiss, which was nice as I’ve lost the win-and-in for top8 for three consecutive tournaments prior to this last one.
Then I got crushed by 3c-Loam, which was 4c-Loam sans Punishing/red but with plenty of basics, felt like a very gloomy matchup, especially when he starts with a Leyline of the Void in play postboard..

I’d say I agree with the assessment that Exploration doesn’t feel absolutely necessary. However, I think that they compliment each other, sort of, as Exploration is usually what you want when facing the decks that Chalice isn’t backbreaking against, D&T, 4c-Loam, MUD etc.
Had the pleasure of having a turn 1 Exploration+Chalice in one game, which prompted a disheartened chuckle from my opponent. Then again, I had the unpleasure of resolving Chalice and then drawing Exploration as my next card, three times, but uuh, I won them anyway.

Nic Fit isn’t a particularly great matchup imho, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it’s really bad. I usually mull for the combo, but I normally play 3-4 Thespian’s and 2 Dark Depths.
From my experience, if you don’t have a fast combo, it turns into a grindfest which ends with either them overwhelming you with their billions of mana or you getting to the combo.
You do have a better endgame than them, if the gy/engines are intact, when you can shoot multiple PFs per turn and/or EEs, in addition to some number of Mazes. Unless they have some wacky combo (Recurring Nightmare, Scapeshift etc.) going on.
Them having bountiful amounts of gy hate being the main crux, well, in addition to having 7+ basics..
As the games can go exceedingly long, there is plenty of room for skill/mistakes to play a big part in the outcome, try to think back on what you could have done differently, especially regarding the Intuitions.

I’m eagerly awaiting the new mull-scry rule, pretty sure I mull in more than 50% of my matches.

kravkenov

09-22-2015, 07:38 AM

I normally play 3-4 Thespian’s and 2 Dark Depths.

Glad to see that I'm not the only one to play 3-4 Stages / 2 Dark Depths configuration in RUG Lands ;)

From my experience, it's one of the best build for RUG Lands. It enable a possible fast combo, while not loosing too much of control.
I removed Ghost Quarter, Glacial Chasm and Urborg (which dosent help that much).
Ghost Quarter because most of the time, Wasteland-lock is enough to keep opponent off mana.
Glacial Chasm because, honestly, if you need it, you are already in a very bad position, and without the Thespian loop on Chasm, it's very difficult to continue the game.
Urborg because I dont play black at all (or sometimes Abrupt Decay).

This let me run 4 Stages / 2 Depths, along with 2-3 Tolaria West and 2-3 Crop Rotation, it is a real pleasure to play the deck.
Almost all the control side from standard RUG Lands, and a bit of the speed from RG/Combo (kind of).

snorlaxcom

09-25-2015, 06:59 AM

Hello there!
Yesterday I tried rugx lands for the first time (typically on RG Lands, Elves, 4c Loam). I went 3-2, won vs UWR Blade, ANT, The Gate. Lost to BUG Midrange (no shardless), drew really bad in the 3rd game... & 2nd loss vs Nic Fit I should have gotten at least 1 Maze of Ith with the Intuition to hold off his big monsters. Nic Fit seems like a really bad matchup in general unless you have a rather early 20/20 but then I could have played much better...definitely learned from that.

Decklist was Snorlax list with Explorations instead of Revokers. SB had 2 Titania, Protector of Argoth (metagame call vs Black midrange & other Loam variants)
I thought a lot beforehand about playing his exact list but I love Exploration...guess what? Exploration has not been important in any round. I mean, vs The Gate it was nice so I could Explosives for 3-5 fast to low up Lilianas, Phyrexian Obliterators and whatnot...but unnecessary.
While running 0 G enchantments, people still bring in stuff to handle Exploration which isn't as good against recurrable Artifacts. And you have 0 dead cards with Chalice.

Snorlax SB with Thalias, Meddling Mages etc is great!
My only concern was only 1 DD...I often struggled to find it to end games(didn´t have Intuition or transmutable t west ready there). That`s the difference from RG Lands I guess.

The idea is to capitalize off of mulligans. The deck can recover consistently going to 5. Exploration seems like a 6x card, but not in this version. Being the most versatile preboard card I could incorporate (mainly for Miracles), Revoker has much more utility in a 7rnd+ setting and can be bought back, which has addressed not finding Marit in time. Buying back consecutive Revokers can shorten the clock in a pinch (also pair with pfire), while making land drops and not sinkholeing yourself for Marit. The colorless spells also makes having an opening green source not a must. Drawing Exploration enough times after chalice resolving will make you think a bit lol.

Sb dudes have served me well and are meant for Omni where a couple pfires and a loam can be cut for the 2cmc slot.

Nicfit likes 1cmc cards too. Take a look at their list again. They can deed or decay away a lock piece, but here you have all your Intuitions resolving at will to control the board. Ports are quite strong here with their use of basics since you can lock out a color if they don't have the right fetch to get the appropriate basic. You don't have to rush it, but Marit should trump anything they bring to the table. Leyline is a kick in the nuts, but they also have top, sometimes Library, sb needle, deed, Recurring N., etc.; side in at least 2 grip. G2 Should reveal if you need more or less, but you can do reconnaissance g1.

Finished first week at med school... Whew! :smile:
Looking forward to playing more lands than spells next time I get the chance.

Alexeezay

09-25-2015, 07:21 AM

snorlaxcom

09-25-2015, 07:48 AM

snorlaxcom, thanks for the reply. What you just described is exactly my experience & I will try your list next time.

You're right about Nic Fit, and that was my misread in the matchup...boarded in Grips but boarded out Chalice and it cost me...he had like 2-3 Deathrite Shaman in the first turns followed by Ooze which was brutal...

One more thing I thought about...Lodestone Golems in place of Trinispheres...I know it costs 1 more mana but you can put it into play for Show and Tell just as well & it hits for 5. Thoughts?

Lodestone costs too much for my taste to run out there, so he is labeled as a "show" target. "Show" cards should end the game or make it verrry difficult for omni to do anything, which 3sphere does more effectively in one card. 3sphere also pairs better with port, so if they have an early show then you can deny them a mainphase. The clock it presents is nice, but isn't aggressively priced to be considered a lock piece for me. There are many cases were you only have enough mana to do 1 or maybe 2 actions per turn cycle; port/2cmc action+3cmc action. Trini fits better in this scenario and is how many early games play out. Also taxing your own spell is huge part of my reasoning for not using sphere of resistance. Kgrip or Intuition costing 4+mana is horrible. Thalia gets a pass here because she is an early clock and deals with pyromancer sb plans, while not just stalling the game for one turn as she lets you take draw steps to better hate out the situtuation. The other upside of maxing out trini, or going at least 3, is having demonic tutor target g2/3 in response to s&t and you know that will stop the game.

There are games where you also don't want to give up tempo if you have it. Casting consecutive haymakers like chalice, thalia, then trini will beacon a force for the first two or one of them and Trini stops them from addressing the board thanks to it being aggressively costed. You can now port or take other actions a turn earlier than if you had a lodestone. Trying to get to 4 mana here is asking for a bit much. Choke ends the game.