[Deck] RUG Lands

[kravkenov]

For various reasons, I've been out of magic/legacy for a while. Is old faithful still decent in the metagame, or should I be heading over to the RG lands thread and catching up over there?

RUG and RG Lands are two different a deck with almost the same kill condition.
RG is really aimed to Marit Lage as quick as possible with opponent mana disruption, but not much more do to pre-side.
RUG is aimed to take control and finish the game with Marit Lage.

Both are good deck, RG is a bit more popular since some of they pilots are really strong (Jarvis Yu) and top GP more often. But really is a matter of personal choice and I won't say RG or RUG is stronger. They have both pros and cons.
From my personal experience, hands and mulligan are a bit harder with RUG, but nothing that harder.

[Dice_Box]

I would argue that the cheaper tutors make Combo the stronger of the two decks, but I would not say if this is your baby switch. RUG is in my opinion the sweeter deck to lock someone out with. If it's what you know, play it.

[amalek0]

I've been playing variations of lands or agro loam for YEARS. I'm about equally comfortable with decklists/lines of play/keepable hands/matchups for both, I just wondered what the consensus is on what's better in the metagame at the moment.

[Rockman000]

I've been playing variations of lands or agro loam for YEARS. I'm about equally comfortable with decklists/lines of play/keepable hands/matchups for both, I just wondered what the consensus is on what's better in the metagame at the moment.

I would think this deck has a better chalice matchup than RG since we rely on less 1 drops. Engineered explosives usually locks up Miracles. Maze of ith is also better than most ways aggro loam fights Eldrazi. So I'm inclined to pick RUG if Eldrazi and Miracles are most played.

[Crimhead]

I would think this deck has a better chalice matchup than RG since we rely on less 1 drops. Engineered explosives usually locks up Miracles. Maze of ith is also better than most ways aggro loam fights Eldrazi. So I'm inclined to pick RUG if Eldrazi and Miracles are most played.D&T is also a deck where I'd prefer to face with RUG than with R/G. In a way it's a meta call, but I like to switch between the two just for variety and to keep my more observant opponents guessing.

[Pilhas]

Will take the following list to a tournament this saturday and I'm looking for some opinions(fist time playing the deck in a tourney).

1x Academy Ruins
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
3x Maze of Ith
4x Rishadan Port
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Thespian's Stage
2x Tolaria West
1x Tranquil Thicket
2x Tropical Island
4x Wasteland
3x Wooded Foothills

3x Crop Rotation
3x Punishing Fire
4x Gamble
4x Life from the Loam
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Exploration

Sideboard (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Dark Depths
4x Krosan Grip
1x Smokestack
4x Sphere of Resistance
1x Zuran Orb



Thinking of swapping Smokestack for a Boseiju
Wondering if 4 chalice is overkill
Wondering if I need Zuran Orb
Not playing Intuition, I believe it is too slow, got option of sb an EE for 1



Help me :)

[Crimhead]

If you think Intuition is too slow, you might want to cut blue altogether. Intuition can fetch Academy Ruins, EE, and Loam all at once. I think without that super-tutor it might be hard to take advantage of EE. That's right slots that you could free up for various utility.

I used to run RUG Lands with a mix of Gamble & Intuition, and it worked okay. I'd recommend (if you want to stay in blue) cutting maybe one EE and one Gamble in favour of two Intuitions.

Usually we only need one Chalice, so Intuition builds run three and Gamble lists can get away with just one. Some of those slots might be better as Needles or Trackers or Vorticies or Bosieju etc. If you want another prison rock, 3Sphere is also a card (I run a Nethervoid when I play RUG).

Zorb is still a great card, but it's mostly good if you are facing Burn, R/U Delver, or Canadian Thresh builds with Price of Progress in the board.

Lands has a very strong core with a lot of flexibility, so there is no reason your deck won't work as is. But you've asked for advice, and this is what I've got.

[n0ct3m89]

I agree with most of crims post. Ive also been experimenting with some number of gambles over intuition, and its working pretty well. My current tutor split is 3 crop rotation, 3 gamble, 2 intuition.

For sideboards, cut the dd and find room for another source of ca. There are a lot of decks packing surgical right now, so having a backup engine is really usefull. RUG is really good at fighting through permanent based hate, but can struggle with spell based.

Also i agree on cutting a few chalices. This deck has more tutoring abilities so it gets rewarded for diversifying hate and answers

[Crimhead]

Does anybody have advice for boarding out cards vs Mentor Miracles? Tabernacle, Mazes, and a couple PFs can come out if there are no Mentors, but I feel I need some of these if Mentor is in the list. That leaves me only Crop Rotations, Bog, and Karakas, but like to board in more than five cards!

What do you guys take out?

[Pilhas]

@Crimhead
I actually never tested the split, I think I'll try the 3Gamb/2Int.

I usually never test against combo(outside of elves) since no1 plays that but me in my group, but the 4 spheres+4 chalices seemed too much.

@n0ct3m89
Any suggestion for that engine?("source of ca")
I am not thinking on splashing black for Confidant, and the only other option seems Sylvan Library.

About Mentor Miracles, I usually take out all the mazes, 1 creature is rarely the problem. I also don't cut the PFire to pressure Jace+Snaps since I cut mazes.

[kravkenov]

I used to play 4 crop, 2 Gamble and 2 Intuition with a 3/3 Thespian/depths split.
Intuition is really strong against deck that cannot recovery from an Explosives lock, if you don't want to play Intuition consider going R/G because Tolaria is even more slower than Intuition and keeping blue dosent make sens at this point.

Smockstack is no-more (imo) a good lock piece because it's hell slow and usually don't have a huge impact fast enough to be relevant. I really prefer Trinisphere instead.

About Chalice, it's a matter of personal feeling. Chalice is huge against tempo and burn deck, but it will blank your Exploration/Crop/Gamble which isn't that sweet. Instead I would better go to taxes effect, which are less impactful on your side than opponent side and do a very great job at slowing opponent while letting you use your key spell (exploration, crop, gamble).

[Crimhead]

Any suggestion for that engine?("source of ca")
I am not thinking on splashing black for Confidant, and the only other option seems Sylvan Library.

Sylvan Library (main) and/or Tireless Tracker (SB).
You will rarely need a backup engine G1, so TT from the board is fine.
Anything else is probably too slow for this deck.

[Pilhas]

Sylvan Library (main) and/or Tireless Tracker (SB).
You will rarely need a backup engine G1, so TT from the board is fine.
Anything else is probably too slow for this deck.

Thanks for the input, I'll test the TT then since I don't want to change the main too much(pretty used to it)

[Crimhead]

Crucible Of Worlds can also give you CA. And you can dredge or Intuition* into it thanks to Academy Ruins. It tends to be better if you've already your graveyard a little bit before losing the Loam. It's also fantastic with Wasteland + Exploration. Better than a Loam for Waste-locking. It's also better for reassembling Marit Lage.

*If Loam is Extracted, Intuition for Crucible + double T.West. otherwise both Ruins and Crucible get put in your graveyard with no means of recursion.

[n0ct3m89]

Tireless tracker, crucible, and sylvan and possibly top are other sources of ca if you dont want to play bob.

Against miracles i tend to board out an exploration, the karakas, the mazes, and a crop rot or two if im bringing in a bunch of cards. Keep in punishing. Its a way to pressure jace, their creatures, and can keep monks under control.

[Crimhead]

Also if you are cutting back to three Gambles you could easily drop down to a singleton Taiga to make room for a Crucible or Library.

[Pilhas]

Also if you are cutting back to three Gambles you could easily drop down to a singleton Taiga to make room for a Crucible or Library.

That might not be a good ideia. Can't run the crucible(don't have it) but have lib.
Can you show me your typical SB?

Can't fit trackers in there

[Crimhead]

I've yet to run Trackers in RUG, but I see no reason they couldn't fit. A typical board for me:

3 Spere of Resistance
3 Chalice
1 Nethervoid
4-6 Grip/Decay

2-4 other cards such as Vortex, Needle, 4th Crop Rotation; or something"cute" like Nephalia Drownyard, Helm, Cursed Totem, etc.

Without black you're limited to the four Grips. You can run a 3Sphere or fourth SoR instead of Nethervoid. There is certainly room for Trackers if you want them.

[n0ct3m89]

My sideboard looks like this (cuz im a psychopath)

3x grip
3x bob
3x thalia, guardian of thraben
2x ethersworn canonist
1x zorb
1x 3sphere
1x chalice
1x sylvan

[Pilhas]

Thank you for the help,

I think I'll run

4 Spheres
3 Chalice
4 Krosan Grip
1 DD(3rd)
3 - EE(3rd)/Zuran Orb/Needle/Sylvan Lib(2nd)/Boseiju


Since I never tested the Trackers, I prefer going with Lib(which I tested).
Will tell you how it went.

[kravkenov]

Thank you for the help,

I think I'll run

4 Spheres
3 Chalice
4 Krosan Grip
1 DD(3rd)
3 - EE(3rd)/Zuran Orb/Needle/Sylvan Lib(2nd)/Boseiju


Since I never tested the Trackers, I prefer going with Lib(which I tested).
Will tell you how it went.

In the present meta - lot of Counterbalance (Miracle) and Chalice (Eldrazi) - I would advise to play Boseiju in the main, and play more taxes effects.
I would also say that these problematics cards come very quickly on board, and playing more Stages / Depths make the deck lot more fast and reliable for the Witch early game, while still giving you a very strong mid and late game with the 3 Explosives and mana-hate. Until now, I was very successful with my 4 Crop, 2 Gamble, 2 Intuition and 1 Boseiju (instead of Bojuka), 4 Stages, 3 Depths.


My current list is as follow

3 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
2 Gamble
2 Intuition

3 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Tolaria West

1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland



4 Trinisphere
4 Krosan Grip
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Crucible of Worlds

[snorlaxcom]

I drove (blasting party music for more hype) to SCG Baltimore this weekend and played in two challenges (2-1-1 w/bye & 3-0-1 won friendly ID) on Saturday and the Classic (24th of 119 with 4-2-1) on Sunday. I had a bye in the first challenge event so 14 matches over the weekend were Miracles (2-1-1, UID), UR Delver (2-0), BUG Delver (1-1), Eldrazi (1-0), Esper Deathblade (0-1), D&T (1-0), Elves (1-0), Belcher (0-0-1, UID), Mono U Control (0-0-1, ID & won friendly match). Didn’t find a notebook to record my matches, but I tried a couple of things out from online matches and last minute swaps. From my typical list I noted some changes (in an effort to be a bit more aggressive while still having miracles addressed G1):

+ 1 Crop Rotation
+ 1 DD
+ 1 Thespian’s Stage
+ 1 Glacial Chasm
+ 1 Worm Harvest

- 1 EE
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Fetch
- 1 Crucible of Worlds

Yes, now 61 cards. For the Challenge events on Saturday I didn’t see much need for Karakas, but I put it back in for Sunday cutting Ghost Quarter after not having activated it at all on Saturday. GQ is used to fight extractions/Needles on Wastelands, but didn’t run into that much. I hate the card in my opener, but Chasm is back in after being out for some years. Upping crop and stage numbers and expecting infect/belcher/burn on the weekend it wasn’t much opportunity cost in the end. I was thinking of making this slot Boseiju, but decided against it after reviewing my tools vs Miracles G1.

1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Tolaria West
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Academy Ruins
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm

1 Worm Harvest
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Exploration
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond

Sideboard: I tried out Trackers for the first time by using a flex slot and a revoker slot. I wasn’t satisfied with the manabase for bobs, so this was a good time to try out something besides Sylvan Library.
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Krosan Grip
3 Trinisphere
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void

Sunday Legacy Classic

R1 BUG Delver
G1 He leads with ponder and I go hog wild when Intuition resolves.
G2 Crop for a dude.

1-0-0

R2 Paul Michel on BUG Delver (sans goyf for mongoose)
G1 fuzzy memory, but I lose. I take note of the mongeese and think the deck could be some BuRG variant.
G2 Assuming he has no dazes I jam a t2 Trinisphere and it sticks. I pfire his t1 delver on my t3 and pass. He remains on one land and I find a grove. He scoops when I play Loam.
G3 T1 delver beats for many turns, while my starting 5 dictates I setup chalice and Trini. I finally get a maze, but he lands Winter Orb and I have no time to address delver #2.

1-1-0

R3 Elves
G1 T1 drs off a bayou and I then lead with T1 EE@1 not realizing he was on Elves. He slow rolls dudes and avoids 1 cmc, but I go with t2 pfire. He has dryad, Nettle, & Visionary so two mana to pop EE or 3 mana to buy back pfire is getting outpaced and unable to prevent him from doing a NO. I have 2 Crop for DD combo or chasm if need be. He fires of one NO putting me to 10. Ok. I play stage and have combo ready to kill him. He gets out Hoofs #2 forcing me to chasm at 10 life. I sac a land to chasm and have to wait some turns to play the next crop for DD, but it’s all good cause 6 life into chasm is all I need to win. On my turn I pay 2 life and play a land. He then plays the life loss elf twice and I die.
G2 Combo him fast.
G3 Lock pieces.

2-1-0

R4 Eldrazi
G1 plays some dorks I can shoot with pfire and has a shit manabase.
G2 He mulls to 5 and I keep 6. I take some hits from mimic before shooting it and getting enough mana to shoot the 3/3 endless one while at 6 life. Know I can take a hit from a hastey dude and kills the other dorks it’s all gravey. I’m dredging loam in the meantime for combo pieces or wasteland. I have two ports knocking off 2 sol lands. He hits me for 5 then I find a maze to hold off dude. Ports keep him off of 4 mana, but I don’t divide the activations separately in the beginning phase among the upkeep and draw, so he uses 4 mana to untap a grim monolith and now has that plus cavern and wasteland for mana. Knowing he can play smasher for the win I was screaming inside, but he doesn’t find it and I dredge a wasteland + combo and wreck the manabase.

3-1-0


https://i.imgflip.com/189zgc.jpg

R5 Justin Miller on Miracles
G1 knew he was on miracles and had T2 EE@2. Had some ports going and blew up CB when it showed up. Loam setup was going full ham, but wasn’t finding win con fast enough. Took too much of the time here.
G2 He had mentor and I couldn’t kill it. He extracted pfire and loam.
G3 had ports to keep off mentor and Jace, while loam going. When I got combo turns were over.

3-1-1

R6 D&T
G1 seeing T1 plains vial was nice. I lead with thicket and t2 Exploration to pfire some dork. T3 Intuition I made a pile for Harvest, Wasteland (on his Karakas) and DD forgetting I didn’t have Loam out yet. I wanted to change out DD for the Loam I thought I presented, but I already put the 3 on the table. I had a huge field in a couple of turns, while pfire was roasting everything on his side. I found Loam and dredged some turns later to Worm Harvest ftw (refer to meme above).
G2 I opened with Grip, EE, twest + stuff. He had T1 vial and I was thinking of doing T1 EE, but I led with twest because I was going to save EE for cmc2 and grip was reserved for Vial. He plays stoneforge T2 getting SoFI. He gets Vial to 2 and throws Thalia in. Waiting to hit 4 mana stinks and I get knocked down to 9 by the time I grip sword, waste Karakas and then EE@2. He has Brimaz hit me down to 5 has RiP and ticks Vial to 4 for Wilt-Leaf Liege.
G3 I have a combo hand with pfire and grip, but all my colors are off of Mox. I lead with land and he leads with Vial. I play mox + stage then pass to wait for his EOT to grip Vial. I get it, then untap I play depths and ready to go off, but he has Karakas up and port, so is not safe to go off yet. Then couple of turn are back and forth with our land drops as he gets a waste out and I draw consecutive stage, port, and depths. I have a maze to pitch to the second mox to free up options since he won’t play creatures in this board state. He taps port and plains for ratchet bomb and I make my move to wasteland (staged his earlier) his karakas and port his waste. He cantripped off of a horizon canopy with mana floating before I changed to combat, but found no other land. I made dude and attacked. He later told me he didn’t have swords in hand and played bomb to kill the token. Nah bruh. My hand still had double crop and pfire.

4-1-1

R7 Michael Sol on Esper Deathblade
He said I looked like I wanted to play. It was still a win-and-in for 8th place since my opponents have done well putting me at the highest position in the draw bracket.
G1 did my thing and he only had a couple of forces for interaction, but scooped after pfire loop and combo.
G2 T2 TNN and me stumbling. He got a second TNN and no EE in sight.
G3 slow game, but boiled down to 2 drs and stoneforce swinging for 1 with one drs on guard duty for my yard. I had tabernacle taxing 3 of his mana +maze and later found a port to tap him out of his basics, but he went to drs #3 and was attacking for 2. All the while I was dredging and never hit a pfire in the next 6 dredges. He forced a Loam once and forced an EE @1. Turn after I died I flipped pfire with double grove in play. Lame.

4-2-1 (24th of 119) so I got 12 EMA packs and some T2 packs from the prize wall because it looked better to sit on that than store credit.

Tracker was cool and I’d like to try out more sb games with him to form a conclusion, but he looks promising. Harvest was doing some work over the weekend g1 and I like the slot. Nice to have another preboard slot vs miracles and helped G1 where I didn’t want to lose two lands to gamble the outcome. I still want to try out riftstone portal with Harvest/Intuition. I couldn’t see anything else to trim before the event, but it could be a thicket or move Karakas to the sb. I was noticeably combo'ing more often, so that was fun. I'd like to test more vs BUG Delver and D&T. I handily take G1 only to lose G2 due to a fast dork/goyf draw and G3 gets to be a toss up if I mull into oblivioin. Some games could be sped up back there. Is annoying to start at 48-47 minutes left cause there is little time for opponent to sit.

Fun time playing paper again. Anybody else play this weekend? I saw some RG in the room, but only friend I knew playing Lands was Dave Long and he went 2-3 drop. No Lands in the T16.

[kravkenov]

Nice report. Dont you ever miss the 3rd Explosives ? Especially with Intuition ? Because I feel sometimes the Explosives-Loam-Tolaria Intuition pile a bit too slow.

[Pilhas]

Forgot to tell you guys how it went.

First tournament with the deck and I finished 4-2-1.

I only got favourable MU so it should go a lot better.



R1 Eldrazi 2-1
R2 Shardless 2-0
R3 4C Delver 0-2
R4 Some kind of Delver(can't remember) 2-0
R5 Shardless 0-2
R6 UG Cloudpost 2-1
R7 Shardless BUG 1-1-1(he slow played like a bitch, and we both got out of Top16)


Only grind, should be able to win all rounds but I am still green with the deck.

I played the 3 Gamble+2 Intuition that some1 suggested and I like it.
Missed the 2nd Taiga a lot.
Missed 2nd sylvan lib in the sideboard.

[snorlaxcom]

Nice report. Dont you ever miss the 3rd Explosives ? Especially with Intuition ? Because I feel sometimes the Explosives-Loam-Tolaria Intuition pile a bit too slow.

I swapped it for Harvest, so it wouldn't have mattered in the cases where I needed EE vs BUG delver rnd2 or rnd7 vs TNN because I never drew the Harvest slot and said to myself "should have been EE #3". Between 3 pfire, 3 maze, 2 twest, 2 copies of EE, and 2 thickets (to dredge faster) I drew enough removal where EE #3 didn't feel as necessary. I didn't make an Intuition pile for ruins + EE + Loam because pfire was enough or I tutored up a combo for the finish.

[Crimhead]

I'm heading a lot about Tireless Tracker, planning to test with her soon (but I'm on a R/G kick for a little bit).

Has anybody tried her in RUG, and do we like her in this build?
Has anybody tried main-decking one plus a Volrath's Stronghold (makes a nice Intuition pile)? Is Tracker good enough to warrant that much space?

[snorlaxcom]

I'm heading a lot about Tireless Tracker, planning to test with her soon (but I'm on a R/G kick for a little bit).

Has anybody tried her in RUG, and do we like her in this build?
Has anybody tried main-decking one plus a Volrath's Stronghold (makes a nice Intuition pile)? Is Tracker good enough to warrant that much space?

Went 2-2 in yesterday's FNM beating 2 burn decks and losing to UR Delver and Grixis delver. Tracker was great vs blue decks. I could have taken down UR delver if I was more aggressive at cracking clues to win the race vs TNN, but I wasn't planning out attacks rather trying to piece Marit Lage together. In sb games vs Grixis he easiliy outgrew zombie fish which had to be on chump block duty. I'll probably go to tracker #3 for a Grip #4. I take out Intuitions/Loam for him anyway and having 3 instead of 2 is where I want to be.

I was thinking of having it main, but Stronghold is a bit too much on the manabase of an already 3 color deck. I only go more than 3 colors if it is absolutely necessary (ie Omnishow w/ DTT). Harvest is more compact as a wincon and compliments Intuition better. If I were to tutor for lands then it'd probably be for Marit or EE/pfire lock.

[barcode]

Volrath's Stronghold seems overkill for so few creatures.

People reading the RGCL thread know how I feel about Tireless Tracker. tl;dr - card's nuts (in RGCL), play 4.

[Crimhead]

Volrath's Stronghold seems overkill for so few creatures.We run Academy Ruins mostly for just EE.

Do you run Tracker in RUG too?

[snorlaxcom]

We run Academy Ruins mostly for just EE.

Yea mostly for EE, but the difference is that the EE lock can be tutored via twest g1 so that pairing makes more sense than Stronghold. I'd probably run KotR MD over Tracker if I wanted to find a slot for Stonghold if we are counting on having an undisturbed gy for so long.

[snorlaxcom]

Went 4-0 at fnm. Meta was pretty degenerate and exciting: dredge, 12 post, tes, enchantress, sneak&show, belcher, worldgorger, and rounded off by fair d&t and grixis delver.

rnd1 dredge
g1 flips his deck over but scoops when he therapies me and sees chasm and loam in the yard
g2 he mulls to 5, bottoms his scry, and proceeds to explode with breakthrough. Therapies my crop, but he scoops when I transmute for tabernacle and have a loam going. He scry'd ashen rider to the bottom ):
1-0

rnd2 12 post
g1 I disrupt some of his mana but bait out his bog. I recover after a bog and waste it so no more copies will screw with me g1. His manabase is quickly destroyed while marit is dredged up.
g2 chalice @1
2-0

rnd3 tes
g1 storm 9 with tendrils t3/4
g2 quick marit
g3 t1 revoker (LED) beats + chalice for 0 + 2X trini + academy > 2X decay
3-0

rnd4 enchantress
We play it out since prize structure sucks for records less than 4-0 and I also like my position vs enchantress.
g1 quick marit with unassuming lands thanks to crops
g2 tracker doesn't care for RiP and gets there while I port stuff and blow up enchantments
4-0

$40 in credit, sweet.

Shout out to mtgfirst.com and their quest for power: lotus event in September. Yesterday was a trial for said event where t8 gets $75 and winner gets more credit + a bye.

R1 burn
g1 gguide gives me stage and I kill t3 with eot crop
g2 t1 top for him and I port him down to one mana his t2. He does a t3 eidolon but my turn I make a witch to avoid price damage.
2-0

R2 burn
g1 i get bolted/spiked and make t2 marit
g2 get bolted/spiked and went for mainphase marit in early turns
2-0

R3 Miracles (ID, but play for funsies)
g1 get an early port but he makes all his land drops. I resolve Intuition, but CB/top is too demanding while he has mentor shitting tokens. Harvest resolves but gets outpaced with mentor + top out. Marit comes online too late.
g2 revoker t2 hits his t1 top. He misses land drops and has no cantrips. I get t3 tracker down and t4 natural combo pieces in play.
g3 he gets CB and RiP down. I stick EE @2 and sit on a grip for b2b/moon. He lands a moon, but I resolve a mox for grip mana. I pick a spot to grip moon (tapping dd for mana) and summon marit when he commits a mentor to the board.
2-0-1

R4 ID Jarvus Yu (RG Lands)
get five guys with jalepeños, good stuff
2-0-2

T8 White Eldrazi
g1 i keep a one lander with crop, loam, mox, exploration, grove, pfire, something. He sticks t1 chalice and I rotate for a fetch hoping to rip a land and play out mox and loam. I don't draw a land for some turns and he plays dudes and a wasteland. I could EE away chalice, but would kill my mox and make no head way
g2 keep a hand with grip for his RiP and port him off plays but I have no follow up for some turns, He rips another stompy land and forces me to grip another RiP and takes Intuition with thought-knot. More dorks come down and he draws wasteland for maze.
Pretty frustrating since this has always been my easiest matchup recently, but being 4-0 against burn these past two weekends I can't really complain about variance.

Winning 2 rounds for $75 credit. Sure. I can free roll events for a while and finally finished my pokemon deck. yay!

Event at scg soon I plan on playing at, we'll see. Didn't use rifstone portal and went back to 2 thicket. Seems fine for now. I may just get another tracker for a grip though. Tracker has been legit. Can't see a spot to use a boseiju yet and portal makes more sense with retrace anyway.

[Crimhead]

The new D&T toys are very interesting. Is it possible D&T will rise to rival Miracles as a top deck (top as in best, not SDT); or even reign supreme like Maverick did in 2012?

Maybe that's a bit of a long shot, but if D&T becomes omnipresent, it is likely that RUG will be the optimal archetype for Lands players. If the stars do align this way, hopefully save Lands experts will start putting their brains into optimising the deck for the (new) meta. The like David Long, Jarvis Yu, Kurt Spiess, Kevin King, etc.



Volrath's Stronghold seems overkill for so few creatures.
I'd originally suggested Stronghold just to recur Trackers, but if Prelate becomes an issue I'd like to play around with a deeper Stronghold package including Shriekmaw and possibly Ingot Chewer in the main or the side. More recurring removal! The big problem will be finding the slots.

Of course I'm not David Long or Jarvis Yu, so my ideas are always highly dubious.

Ingot Chewer is nice if we can use it after dredging, but it doesn't kill SDT or enchantments, so maybe it's just not good enough to run. This could lessen the value of the package as a whole. I'm just brainstorming here.

[snorlaxcom]

The new D&T toys are very interesting. Is it possible D&T will rise to rival Miracles as a top deck (top as in best, not SDT); or even reign supreme like Maverick did in 2012?

Maybe that's a bit of a long shot, but if D&T becomes omnipresent, it is likely that RUG will be the optimal archetype for Lands players. If the stars do align this way, hopefully save Lands experts will start putting their brains into optimising the deck for the (new) meta. The like David Long, Jarvis Yu, Kurt Spiess, Kevin King, etc.



I'd originally suggested Stronghold just to recur Trackers, but if Prelate becomes an issue I'd like to play around with a deeper Stronghold package including Shriekmaw and possibly Ingot Chewer in the main or the side. More recurring removal! The big problem will be finding the slots.

Of course I'm not David Long or Jarvis Yu, so my ideas are always highly dubious.

Ingot Chewer is nice if we can use it after dredging, but it doesn't kill SDT or enchantments, so maybe it's just not good enough to run. This could lessen the value of the package as a whole. I'm just brainstorming here.

Dave originally played my deck at side events, but put rg together for himself after kurt was smashing and that worked out for him. He hasn't expressed interest in playing this again and jarvis has never expressed interest to me (we all play at the same store). All the orginal Lands players I knew from 3 years ago and before I took over the primer no longer play. Life happens. I myself can only play some months out of the year. I used to run a list and give it to a friend to run at events we went to and got some pretty good feedback at the time treasure was not ruled stupid.

Creature packages get eaten by drs so g1 opening up more to drs would hurt and weaken Intuition, but could be ok if d&t ticks up in numbers. If you want to go the creature route it will take quite a few slots to make it consistent enough to be effective g1 without resembling aggroloam. There are lots of "spells" at 1cmc for Lands; flame jab, pyrite spellbomb, dismember, or lock out dorks with barbarian ring + crucible. Most are pretty robust to drs and have been on my backburner if needed. Creatures to consider could be redcap, shriek, flesh bag marauder, and orzohov pontif.

[snorlaxcom]

One got through at 15th (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=106623). Eldrazi and miracles were everywhere. I finished at 5-3-1 for 57th. I definitely want a third tracker.

[CptHaddock]

One got through at 15th (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=106623). Eldrazi and miracles were everywhere. I finished at 5-3-1 for 57th. I definitely want a third tracker.

Card is nuts, I think it completely invalidates the need for a B splash unless you really want more than 4 grip type effects. He's basically bob + kotr on a single card.

I really like that list, it looks like he's cut out some of the fluff we sometimes play and streamlined the list. Between 4 rotations, 2 gambles, 3 intuitions and 2 tolaria wests you should basically be able to find exactly what you are looking for. If I get the time I will be trying something similar at my local weeklies as well.

[iostreamer]

One got through at 15th (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=106623). Eldrazi and miracles were everywhere. I finished at 5-3-1 for 57th. I definitely want a third tracker.

Hey guys Phil here.

While I have been on lands for a few years now, I actually had not played it in a while (played shardless in Worcester) so I based my list on some combination of Snorlax's and Crimhead.

I don't fully remember the specifics of each match and some may not be in order but I believe the day went:

Round 1 Win vs Pox
Not much going on here. He cast Pox once when I had loams and explorations anyways.

Round 2 Win vs Maverick
I derped pretty hard here and didn't realize he had played a dark depths that I could just copy with my own stage for a few turns.

Round 3 Win vs Burn
Not super experienced player, had to read most of my cards. Zuran orb was good here along with chasm.

Round 4 Win vs Oops all spells
Each game was decided on turn 1 where either he won or didn't (I had crop rotation every time for bog)

Round 5 Win vs Grixis Delver
Lost game 2 unexpectedly due to double angler and wasteland on my maze but game 3 I killed 3 creatures with tabernacle and wastelands.

Round 6 Win vs Miracles
g1 lasted most of the round and I essentially milled him out with academy ruins after dealing with the entreats and snapcaster mages (can't Jace to kill me due to ruins). He wasn't playing mentor or cliques main.

Round 7 Loss vs RG Lands
Very bad play by me, lack of MD Karakas probably cost me the first game. Got wrecked by World Breaker and his tracker got bigger than mine in game 2.

Round 8 Loss vs Burn
Lost game 1 to Price + fireblast when I was at 5 life and tried to double crop rotation into the combo on his eot. Couldn't sack enough lands with crop and had to take 2 from the price. Maybe should have gotten chasm instead of stage before he cast fireblast but if he doesn't have it I win and I probably just lose if I get chasm anyways. Bad keep in game 2, should have mulled to 5 (though ended the game with him having 3 price of progress in hand an me having only a forest and some mox diamonds)

Round 9 Win vs BW Eldrazi
Game 2 I had chasm lock without chasm in play (two stages) and had to dredge for infinity turns until I could get tolarian academy for dark depths (both my depths were bottom two cards). I had to replay stage and a wasteland every turn until he was low enough on lands not to be able to play Enbringer (I was at 1) and to keep stage up in case of wasteland which never came. Eventually I found tabernacle and cleared his board to give me breathing room to be able to survive a wasteland on my chasm (thespian stage) and was able to start playing trops to activate transmute for DD.

Miracles was actually my buddy who I drove 14 hours with to come to the Invi. Lost to lands due to being extremely inexperienced in the mirror (pretty much only played against it twice, once vs Snorlax at GP NJ two years ago). I had a 66% chance to play vs either rug delver or eldrazi in round 7 which I feel would have likely put me in the top 8 but unfortunately my inexperience in the mirror likely cost me that one.

The gambles were ok but I think if I were to play again I would go back up to 3 intuition, cut gamble and move Karakas back to the main deck. I would also consider playing World Breaker in the sideboard for the mirror and maybe some other matchups, it seemed pretty sweet when the RG player cast it against me and the recursion seems nice with being able to dredge into it. Tireless tracker I really did not get to cast other than against the lands player but I was too far behind to be able to take much advantage from it. I do think it has replaced the need for Bobs however.

[snorlaxcom]

Lots of burn in the room, but was orb worth it otherwise? I go marit on my turn vs burn which saves me some life from pop because it takes a little too much setup to chasm lock. I pack karakas main because Lands is pretty sizable in the area and only way to actually answer marit. Your eldrazi match was funny to watch them do nothing. I wanted to try a gamble, but 3 Intuitions minimum have been great. Is one worth it to you as loam/pfire 5/4? I agree that bob has been replaced, too. :cry:

[iostreamer]

Lots of burn in the room, but was orb worth it otherwise? I go marit on my turn vs burn which saves me some life from pop because it takes a little too much setup to chasm lock. I pack karakas main because Lands is pretty sizable in the area and only way to actually answer marit. Your eldrazi match was funny to watch them do nothing. I wanted to try a gamble, but 3 Intuitions minimum have been great. Is one worth it to you as loam/pfire 5/4? I agree that bob has been replaced, too. :cry:

I do like orb as it allows chasm lock without exploration and tutor via tolaria west though I'm not sure if that alone makes it worth it other than the obvious benefits vs burn. I tend to play a much more control game rather than try to go for the combo so there's that. (perhaps why I have much worse results playing RG). Admittedly I did go back and forth on including the orb but decided to in the end just because I find it's a sweet card so maybe not the most valid reason.

Karakas main definitely a requirement, I underestimated it's value.

Gamble I guess is fine though generally I was always happier to see intuition. One time I gambled for zuran orb against burn which ended up working out for me though all the other times I gambled for anything other than loam or a land it ended up backfiring on me. Perhaps I've been approaching it wrong however and it really should be treated as simply +1 loam/pfire but then intuition sort of does that but better if you can afford the 3 mana.

Another thing I should mention is the 4 crop rotation, for a long time I played either 2 or 3 but again that's a card I was almost always happy to have in my hand especially for fetching tabernacle/bog/Karakas (on top of the obvious DD/Stage).

[Dominic Pain]

So has anyone thought about trying Throne of the High City in this deck? Downside, against aggro without maze or chasm, they can easily take the monarchy, but upside continuous drawing/dredging.

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

[snorlaxcom]

So has anyone thought about trying Throne of the High City in this deck? Downside, against aggro without maze or chasm, they can easily take the monarchy, but upside continuous drawing/dredging.

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

Seems cool vs miracles in the sb alongside trackers if you have space. Aside from that I don't see what matchups this five drop could improve. Hiding behind a chasm or looping chasms could be nice to draw some gas.

[snorlaxcom]

bruh...

318

link (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/ghirapur-orrery/)

We got a recurrable exploration boys and it dodges decay :eek:

[Crimhead]

Four mana and symmetric...

But at a glance it looks like a solid singleton! Maybe in the side? It's bad against certain decks I think.

[Anen]

The symmetrical part is killing me.

[snorlaxcom]

9th at scg richmond (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2016-09-04&end_date=2016-09-04&event_ID=36&city=Richmond&state=VA&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&limit=8) :cry:

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I thought that decklist looked familiar. Congrats and look forward to a report later!

[non-inflammable]

I've been playing a lot of stax-like decks. I've noticed any sort of "drag" on the cantrippy decks really hurts them; like sphere and trinispere.
Since transmute gets "through" sphere and engineered explosives really isn't affected by sphere of resistance, I'm gonna make a deck list that gets two mana on turn one.

any suggestions?

[snorlaxcom]

I've been playing a lot of stax-like decks. I've noticed any sort of "drag" on the cantrippy decks really hurts them; like sphere and trinispere.
Since transmute gets "through" sphere and engineered explosives really isn't affected by sphere of resistance, I'm gonna make a deck list that gets two mana on turn one.

any suggestions?

During treasure cruise era I did 4 crop and ancient tombs main for this reason. It powered out fast chalice, revoker and trinisphere to stop mana dorks, tops, and vials. More fast mana? You can also do lotus petals. Are you still trying to play loams?

Report coming soon. I just went laptop shopping today.

[snorlaxcom]

First day with a Dell (Inspiron 17 series 7000) and it turned off twice and now it doesn't recognize it's own graphics card hardware (nvidia geforce 940mx). Fuck it. I'll write this from my phone and return the comp tomorrow.

Went to scg richmond for my last legacy events for another year. Did 3-1 in first challenge, 4-0 in second challenge, and 5-2 on Sunday for ninth. Got some more EMA packs and I'll get around to selling those...eventually. I also went 3-0 at a local fnm vs burn, eldrazi, and d&t <--(prelate did nothing vs me there).

Challenge 1

Burn
G1 on the draw I get a hand with crop exploration loam and rip a stage next turn. Hard matchup, right? Lol
G2 I open with double chalice academy fetch crop. Not a combo hand out right but we have lots of interaction and resilient hate. I eat a bolt and chalice at 1. He goes to discard while I get some lands and loam to make land drops while calculating pop damage. I then move to plan for chalice at 2 but he smashes my first one, so I reset another chalice at 1. I drew the third chalice at this point and move to set it for two the next turn. He plays eidolon and I set chalice for 2 to accompany the chalice at one. Judge is called because I say I take no damage. Pop is off of the table so I play blue sources to setup twest. Eidolon hits for two turns while I built up mana to EE it away for X=4. With him at 3 mountains and no permanents in play it's pretty locked up. Even if he suspened rift bolt I would set chalice from the yard for 3 and he would have to have 3 fireblasts and 3 more mountains (me at 9 life). Twest is fired off when drawn and burn goes down in 2.

RGLands
G1 friend I made on the car ride, but his first event with it. He's not optimistic, but anything can happen. He has a slow loam hand, but he assembles marit t4. I tutor for karakas and Intuition takes over with eot exploration. He never gets another colored source besides mox to make any ground. I make a token somewhere and end it.
G2 I keep an okay hand but a turn to slow to deal with marit.
G3 He brought in chalice and set it to one, so I guess I was fine not needing to draw mine. With his tutors offline twest takes over.

Eldrazi Ryan Dail
G1 I win the die roll and Intuition seals it.
G2 He gets oblivion sower out t3 and has too much mana to manage now. He then deploys his biggest threats a turn before I can swing with marit.
G3 I mul into keepable but he has too many dudes. ):

Dark maverick
G1 pfire kills bob and ee gets knights. Stonforge somewhere in there, but then I made a token.
G2 same thing but ee gets 2 knights. Make token by removing ice counters over 5 turns.


Challenge 2

Deathblade Michael Sol
Beat me for the win-and-in at scg Baltimore recently, so I get a redo.
G1 pfire his dorks and make a token. He was unenthusiastic about it.
G2 stuff happened. Neither of us hit sb cards but I still made a token.

Eldrazi
G1 I take it fast as he stumbkes on mana cause wasteland.
G2 he makes no plays until he gets to 4 mana on his mainphase thanks to city and wasteland. He does manage cast a tought-knot but I reveal combo and he has no targets in my hand.

Eldrazi Ryan Dail
G1 redo from our first encounter.
G2 relic of progenitus t1 and eats some lands but is forced to pop it to make his own land drops. I am able to ignore the yard and I make a dude, while he is distracted with mana woes.

Aluren
G1 he plays some shardless bug game but has no answer to marit.
G2 he thoughtseizes me and sees grip and trinisphere. I draw more of the sb hate and make a marit under trini. Really good matchup.

Sunday Legacy Classic

Nic fit
G1 I make marit but he paths and has witness for another path while clocking with sigarda. I stabilize at 4 after resolving Intuition, but he casts rhino twice. 15 Minutes left...Gonna be a long day.
G2 I combo fast and has top t1. He finds no answer t3.
G3 6 minutes left. He plays slaughter games and gets loams, but I don't care. Combo makes it through under a chalice at one as we go to turns ftw.
1-0

Bant midrange
G1 t1 noble is punished by fire thanks to mox on the draw. Pfire continues to kill dorks and maze holds off the bigger dudes while I make a token.
G2 I get a tracker going for a tight race vs tnn but he gets pathed.
G3 I have t2 tracker vs his t2 rip. I have another tracker in hand but I go for mana denial with waste and the on board port. He gets mana for a meddling mage and then I drop tabernacle to tap him out every upkeep. I keep making land drops despite rip and I play tracker two. Hey get big enough and too hot to handle.
2-0

Grixis delver Ed Demicco
G1 he has a strong hand t1 with drs and t2 pyro with triple probe. I have mazes, tab, trop, and a crop in hand. It's not enough to get there.
G2 is a similar draw for him and I can't manage tokens and I die. Very good matchup, so this really stings. Triple probe too stronk.
2-1

D&T
Since I was dispatched so quickly last round I spotted my friend on RG vs d&t. This helped mul decisions as I kept my first 7 and almost would have elected the draw if I won the die roll.
G1 I lead with mox and he goes t2 revoker. Float mana blahblah. He gets a vial late and stays on two plains for a while as I wasted the rest. He had heaths for some reason. I have fun making his life miserable and he scoops cause he doesn't want to wait all day. I had the kill coming but playing vs plains is so cool. No force or decay with a deck that dies to shock,such a wonderfull world
G2 he does things. I loam like a hog (like twice) for land drops since I want to have grips and trackers. He play rip two turns before death. Opened with grip anways.
3-1

Dredge Eric Copenhaver
G1 knew him to play ichorid so I kept a hand that could manage a regular draw. He had a huge t2 and I had Intuition t3 that wasn't likely going to be cast. I setup the least info possible by leading with waste and t2 port his gemstone. He therapied me and I scooped looking at +30 cards in his yard.
We get stopped for a deck check as we present decks after we present to cut. Meh. He mentiined aomething about my deck being tall and if it was triple sleeved. I was using kmc perfect hard and brought out my triple sleeved pokemon deck. We had a nice conversation about early pokemon and noticed all the op cards in pokemon that would never see legacy play.

G2 I open with t1 revoker on led and chalice for zero. I wanted chalice on one, but I valued two layers to cut off LED to limit explosive draws higher than t2 chalice. He eot Nature's claimed chalice and did some looting, but my turn I dropped a trini and locked him out of spells while I transmuted for combo. Made the right call t1.
G3 he gets a dredge going off a looting, but draw step stinkweed flips garbage. He sits there taking draw steps while I go for chalice at 1 to stop dig spells (I forgot it was also stopping the flashback on the 3 therapies in the yard). He now has ancient grudge from hand so that hurts my follow up chalice I was planning on deploying. His turn he cast stinkweed and sacs it to therapy naming some card and missing. I set chalice for one as I draw a trinisphere because I want him to flashback grudge on it before I drop 3ball. He breaks chalice and goes nuts with breakthrough X=1. I rip crop and get bog then throw down trini. He has 3 lands and narc + zombie in play. Attacks coomence and I block with revoker so I have 13 draw steps to do something. I look at my hand and see double stage and chasm. I port his city and that will be my wincon for the moment since I was only a point lower than him and chasm loops could be deployed when I reached 1. I draw DD/twest don't remember and I make a token in turns. He chumps with narc and extends the hand. Fun and intense games with this guy. Would play again.
4-1

Dredge Damon Whitby
G1 we both know what to mul for since we play each other in local Baltimore events. He keeps at 4 and I keep a stacked 7. He goes t1 Pimp and I mox pfire it. He gets some dredging online but I make land drops of port mazes and sit on two crops. I could have made a token earlier but was tired and eot did nothing. I made the token next eot where he was picking up some steam. Whew. Almost fell asleep at the wheel.
G2 he has led and therapies stuff away off of the second casting. I don't get enough going and he beats down too fast.
G3 is my turn to mul and I keep at 5. T1 fastbond 2 lands and t3 trinisphere meets a force pitching narc. Thats all I had in hand to stop the game but now have nothing. He dr ashenrider hitting my green source (trop) and I rip nothing of consequence.
4-2

Rock variant
G1 he has t1 drs and I play mana to not feed it and hold off on mox. He swings with drs and I pitch port to mox and eot his turn Intuition getting a pfire pile. My turn I return grove and junk to hand and shoot dorks. He has goyf now at 3/4 stopped by maze so I don't dredge to feed it and will fire a loam if he wastes. He plays another goyf and now is connecting for 3. I am taking damage and loam back a wased maze, but try to establish UU for twest and ee@2. The sequence seems to be right on time but then they grow. I rip ee off the top and blow up goofs. I shot stonedork and have bskull under two mazes. Marit ends the party as the opp is helpless vs ee lock g1.
G2 opp has lot of two drops that die to shock. Sweet. Grove pfire eat his cards as I am trying to get in with them before he hits sb hate. I have double grove up protecting pfire and buy back slowly, but surely. One sequence I make marit lage eot and while we are both tapped out he surgicals depths and pfires. Is fine since we can get there with tracker in hand and ee loop in the deck. He looks at my sb cards for the match a bit. I now play tracker then fetch for 2 clue tokens. Tracker lives and I build up clue tokens while porting him down. I left mana up to save loam, but don't care about saving loam and crack clues to draw while speeding up the clock. He draws goyfs but tracker is almost bigger than them at this point. I play another tracker and grt double clues. Dudes eat their wheaties and goyfs chump. Some more swings and marit isn't bothered to be woken up again.
5-2

I was 11th going into the last round, but made ninth behind joe lossett and 1.3% breakers. Really stings since two of my loses were in t8 and I was 1-1 vs Ryan Dail. I take some satisfaction that I can still hang and collect my funny money.Went back to 3 ee and they were great. Dropped harvest and rifstone portal to remain at 60 crads. 3 trackers looks to be where I'll settle and remain on 4 grip. Revoker was a G but still could be flex with 1 chalice. Trini was fine in the sb as storm was playing next to me all day and they hose delver. Iostreamer made a t16 a couple of weeks back, so if you can navigate the rgcl matchup well and have a tuned sb this deck should still be live.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I honestly die to grixis delver way more often than I expect to. On paper it looks like an awesome matchup but in my experience at least they have a lot of annoying tools and the builds are so varied that I just get caught sometimes. I still think it's a good matchup but I'm a lot more cautious nowadays.

Thanks for taking the time to type it all out!

[Sparkii]

I honestly die to grixis delver way more often than I expect to. On paper it looks like an awesome matchup but in my experience at least they have a lot of annoying tools and the builds are so varied that I just get caught sometimes. I still think it's a good matchup but I'm a lot more cautious nowadays.

Thanks for taking the time to type it all out!

The only card in that deck that is actually scary is Gurmag Angler. It's definitely a good matchup, but delver can just do what delver does sometimes.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

The only card in that deck that is actually scary is Gurmag Angler. It's definitely a good matchup, but delver can just do what delver does sometimes.Yup, angler is often when the problems start. Like I said I still think it's a good matchup, just not a freebie.

What does your list look like nowadays Sparkii?

[Sparkii]

Really close to snorlax's 9th place list, but still with crucible and zuran orb main. Old habits die hard, I guess. I should try cutting them and see if I like it.

[Dominic Pain]

Made the switch to RUG after realizing prelate can entirely shut down RG lands and will be playing it at the Orlando open this weekend. I'm using I think snorlax's list that was posted a few pages back? 61 main, only edit was a chalice in the side was swapped for a ghost quarter (I don't own a 4th chalice) Any advice on how I should alter my plays for this deck vs RG lands?

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

[snorlaxcom]

Made the switch to RUG after realizing prelate can entirely shut down RG lands and will be playing it at the Orlando open this weekend. I'm using I think snorlax's list that was posted a few pages back? 61 main, only edit was a chalice in the side was swapped for a ghost quarter (I don't own a 4th chalice) Any advice on how I should alter my plays for this deck vs RG lands?

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

My latest list was 60 and no worm harvest (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=2016-09-04&end_date=2016-09-04&event_ID=36&city=Richmond&state=VA&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&limit=8#content_decks_legacy-tab). Chalice #4 and revoker are flex slots I used to address miracles, so use these slots for your metagaming. Gq being slow I only use it if I anticipate lots of surgicals/needle effects and is decent vs eldrazi. What is your area like? Lots of d&t?

[Ingo]

Made the switch to RUG after realizing prelate can entirely shut down RG lands and will be playing it at the Orlando open this weekend. I'm using I think snorlax's list that was posted a few pages back? 61 main, only edit was a chalice in the side was swapped for a ghost quarter (I don't own a 4th chalice) Any advice on how I should alter my plays for this deck vs RG lands?

Sent from my XT1064 using Tapatalk

You definitely should try some RUG Lands, but I am not that sure that it will prove much more succes vs D&T and Prelate than RG in a list with 3Vortex/2Punishing Fires, like David Longs latest list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21279&iddeck=162974). Vortex gets shut down by revoker, but likewise revoker stops Engineered Explosives too. So basically it comes down to EE's recursiveness versus Vortex' speed, and I am not sure if EE's are better here.

[ratninja]

This seems like a good card for RUG Lands. What do you guys think of it?
Sequestered Stash (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/sequestered-stash/)

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Mill 5 is not worth 2 extra mana. Academy ruins and buried ruin are just better.

[Sparkii]

Split the top 8 of ChannelFireBall's $3k event today. I went along with snorlax's successful list and cut zuran orb + crucible for the first time.

The (76) I ended up registering:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
Sideboard:

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Trinisphere

R1: Grixis Delver 2-1
R2: Deathblade 2-0
R3: Shardless 2-1
R4: RG Lands 1-2
R5: Infect 2-0
R6: Goblins 2-0
R7: ID

I kept a sketch hand G1 in the RG land mirror, and it cost me my match loss.

[non-inflammable]

I didn't see this posted; it's from 3 weeks ago.
Items of note: dropping the punishing fire/grove combo, eschewing red and adding spheres of resistance main.

thank you ross: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107814

[kravkenov]

I didn't see this posted; it's from 3 weeks ago.
Items of note: dropping the punishing fire/grove combo, eschewing red and adding spheres of resistance main.

thank you ross: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=107814

Interessting, I will do some play-test game to see how it goes ;)

[Sparkii]

I've adopted the 4 ghost quarters from some successful RG lists and it's been absolutely insane. A lot of us RUG players already played a singleton bullet copy, so we already knew the real power of the card. I split the top 4 of a GPT yesterday with my last $3k list, with a few changes:

-4 Rishadan Port
+3 Ghost Quarter
+1 Crucible of Worlds

Deck is super solid, I love it.

[non-inflammable]

sparkii, congrats on the excellent results...




-4 Rishadan Port
+3 Ghost Quarter
+1 Crucible of Worlds



Looks like the deck got a little cheaper; I can stop chasing foil ports...
Get your foil ghost quarters while you can?

[Sockosensei]

I've adopted the 4 ghost quarters from some successful RG lists and it's been absolutely insane. A lot of us RUG players already played a singleton bullet copy, so we already knew the real power of the card. I split the top 4 of a GPT yesterday with my last $3k list, with a few changes:

-4 Rishadan Port
+3 Ghost Quarter
+1 Crucible of Worlds

Deck is super solid, I love it. Nicely done, Sparkii. To tell the truth, that's a route for the deck that I always wanted to be viable but never thought would be.

What do you think about adding a Manabond back in then? Also, how much use are you getting out of Chasm these days?

[Sparkii]

sparkii, congrats on the excellent results...

Looks like the deck got a little cheaper; I can stop chasing foil ports...
Get your foil ghost quarters while you can?

But I already have my ports... haha.

As for chasm, it's been good. Locked out burn and ghost quartered him out at 1 life the other day. Also locked out eldrazi and infect in separate instances too. I don't think it's cut-able.

Manabond... it's obviously insane with ghost quarter, it might be worth testing a 5th exploration effect again .

But yeah. Decks like miracles become an even better matchup with these changes. You can easily ghost them out of white mana, even post board with a RIP in play. I had one miracles player actually fetch non-basics first in G2 once I had ghosted him out G1. :p it also messes with counterbalance triggers.

Anything weak to wasteland just gets better, like delver and eldrazi.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I've been playing RGb lands for a while (black splash for md'd decays vs chalice/cbalance), but with the advent of prelate, the decays have basically become dead. I've now been trying various versions of RUG lands. Tried out sparkii's list for a bit (I think I played vs you a few months ago at the gpla legacy side event. I was the other dude w/ the foiled out lands deck :tongue:), but it feels weaker to fast starts from things like burn and UR. So I went back to the drawing board with my old jund build and tweaked some numbers around to get the following which seems a bit closer to RUG combo lands than RUG control lands.

2 Engineered Explosives
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond

4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
1 Intuition

4 Life from the Loam

2 Maze of Ith
2 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Tolaria West
4 Exploration
1 Forest
3 Rishadan Port
1 Glacial Chasm

1 Flex: Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth/Rishadan Port/Engineered Explosives/Maze of Ith

SB: 4 Tireless Tracker
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void

So the biggest changes I've been experimenting with are: upping the combo pieces back up to 3 dd/4 stage; 4 gamble/1 intuition split; reducing the maze count to 2; and reducing the port count to 3.

The 4/1 gamble/intuition split was something I'm trying after having tested a 2/3 gamble/intuition split. I felt that intuition was much more powerful, but slower. This often meant that it was easier to counter and sometimes left me without a t1/t2 play. I've been liking the 4/1 split in the few games I've tried so far.

The last slot is what I'm having trouble deciding between. I really liked urborg as a rotation target vs fast decks to get a t3 token, but it might just not be worth it to include. Rishdan Port #4 is a pretty safe bet, but I feel like ports are only really good in the longer grindy matchups where I'd have the time to find one of the 3 and proceed to copy them with stage. EE #3 is what I'm currently leaning towards--it helps vs a lot of the faster decks, miracles, as well as dnt. Maze is also a polarizing card and I feel that the extra ee files a similar role, but is more useful in non-aggro matchups as well.

A couple of the other changes, such as removing the tranquil thicket and 2nd tolaria west for the 2 extra combo pieces was because that I felt the deck has a ton of inevitability when the game goes long. Having those extra card advantage pieces were definitely helpful, but I often felt like they were too clunky in faster matchups.

Lastly, I noticed that some have been trying ghost quarter in lieu of rishadan port. I can see the appeal that in longer games--it can fully strip another player of all lands; and vs delver decks, it just becomes wasteland #5-8. However, I felt like ports are better in the early/mid game vs those decks w/ basics; our long game already feels pretty damn good.

This has been a bit of a long post, but I wanted to toss out my list there and maybe get some feedback. It isn't traditional and may prove to be inferior after much testing, but for now it's been feeling pretty good.

[Drake0525]

Hi all! I am a relatively new Lands player, typically the RG variety, but I'd like to give RUG lands a try. After reading the primer, I still have a few questions about the current iterations of the deck.

In my RG list, I recently added Barbarian Ring to deal with Sanctum Prelate and DnT in general. I haven't had much luck in this match-up so far. Would I be right in assuming Engineered Explosives will deal with Prelate (we can used colorless mana to play around that)?

Does Tolaria West essentially replace Tranquil Thicket, or should I be finding room for both?

I'd like to ensure Miracles can't counterbalance lock me, Boseiju, Who Shelters All is really good for that. Is maindecking that unheard of in RUG?

I'm excited to give this a try, thanks in advance everyone!

[Sparkii]

Hi all! I am a relatively new Lands player, typically the RG variety, but I'd like to give RUG lands a try. After reading the primer, I still have a few questions about the current iterations of the deck.

In my RG list, I recently added Barbarian Ring to deal with Sanctum Prelate and DnT in general. I haven't had much luck in this match-up so far. Would I be right in assuming Engineered Explosives will deal with Prelate (we can used colorless mana to play around that)?

Does Tolaria West essentially replace Tranquil Thicket, or should I be finding room for both?

I'd like to ensure Miracles can't counterbalance lock me, Boseiju, Who Shelters All is really good for that. Is maindecking that unheard of in RUG?

I'm excited to give this a try, thanks in advance everyone!

Explosives should deal with most problems you encounter. You can add colorless to get around almost anything. It also solves your counterbalance problem, especially locking with academy ruins.

West doesn't replace thicket. I don't play thicket as a personal preference, but know others that find space for a copy.

@somethingdotdotdot: Yup, that was me at GPLA! That was a fun match. I'm curious to see how your hybrid test goes.

[Ancestral]

I´ve been fallow this thread for a long time, but got pretty silent nowdays, are you still playing this deck? i notice less lands decks (rg or rug ) in top 8 or even in general competition, the rise of DT with prelacte has something to do with this?

I play this deck back and forward but after sometime not sleeving this up...always feel wrong and i start to play it again. Since i´m a MTG seller i need to focus on 1 deck ( rule no. 1 - don´t consume your product ...but well its stronger than me :p ) and this might be the deck since its the one i´ve had most fun with and can present good results!

[kravkenov]

I´ve been fallow this thread for a long time, but got pretty silent nowdays, are you still playing this deck? i notice less lands decks (rg or rug ) in top 8 or even in general competition, the rise of DT with prelacte has something to do with this?

I play this deck back and forward but after sometime not sleeving this up...always feel wrong and i start to play it again. Since i´m a MTG seller i need to focus on 1 deck ( rule no. 1 - don´t consume your product ...but well its stronger than me :p ) and this might be the deck since its the one i´ve had most fun with and can present good results!

I think the deck is still played by a fair number of us.
I do still play the deck (atm with 4 Wasteland and 4 Ghost Quarter to see how it goes), but it's mainly online because my family keep me very busy these time. My son just turn 1, and my wife is about to land my second child (sorry don't know how to say it properly in English). This is why I'm less active on this thread (and on magic in general).

If Prelate become a big thing, the deck can still tutor and operate with Tolaria. But it is much slower and there is still things like Swords or Flickerwisp. Futur will tell ;)

[somethingdotdotdot]

I think the main reason that lands has seen a down tick in results/play in the past month or two (since conspiracy came out) is due to the uptick of prelate dnt. Traditional RG lands have very few ways to deal with the prelate on 2 (molten vortex is the most common answer, but is easily answered by revoker; barbarian ring is also a bit niche and a bit unreliable since you can't loam it back w/ the prelate on 2).

Another probable reason is that the rise in lands in the past couple of months has led people to realize that surgical is amazing against the deck. Rest in peace/blood moon are annoying, but a simple surgical on depths/stage can basically cripple this deck. It also doesn't help that with BR reanimator becoming more popular, we have another near unwinnable matchup as well as making more decks slot surgical over RiP in board.

At the end of the day, lands doesn't seem to have any great matchups anymore (Eldrazi being probably the biggest exception). Even delver has become more difficult as they've adopted needles, winter orbs, and surgicals to combat the meta. DnT used to be an easy win, but is now unfavored for RG and probably 55-60 for us with RUG. Miracles remains a toss up. Delver has become more of a toss up. Shardless/Jund has become a smaller part of the meta. On the other hand, there are more blood moon decks to beat up on the DtB; and combo is still a pretty terrible matchup.

I think if the meta shifts towards more value driven midrange decks like jund/shardless to beat up on miracles/dnt/delver, we get a leg up again. However, at present, I'd say that lands is on the back foot.

On a side note, I've been testing my build a tiny bit, but my meta is fairly hostile to lands (heavy burn/dnt/miracles/br reanimator meta). I ended up with a oblivion stone in the flex and -1 chalice, +1 zuran orb in the sb. I've found my list to be decent vs burn/dnt/miracles. The oblivion stone is actually hilarious b/c it can just reset the board vs dnt once they name ee with revoker. Vs miracles, it's all about getting the ee/academy loop asap to take them off of their cbalance. Once that happens, you just proceed to make 20/20's until they run out of removal. Vs burn, my list plays like traditional RG lands and you just go for the kill asap (higher chance of finding it faster with more combo pieces and gamble as a faster tutor).

[Ancestral]

yeah i think its a hard time to play lands, but then again i manage to have good results in some tests (of course low count of matches yet ) so i´ll keep pushing it and try to get better with it.

About the deck that drop punishing fires, i find the concept interesting i once tried to play spheres main deck when my meta was very combo oriented, but now with more DT i think i can´t go down on P fires. revoker on EE would just kill us instantly!

How is going the ghost quarters? in my mind sounds okay but then i see a few decks with a couple of basics and that just turn of the ghost quarter in g1, if we have neough recursion to play multple quarters and enough time, i think we already won the match, isn´t a bit a win more, when port is usually more "safe" since its good in almost any game state

[Lormador]

I don't think it's such a bad time to play Lands, it's just a little different than it was before. Intuition should be evaluated again. I've got it as a 1-of now, with Gambles filling in the blanks. Molten Vortex is a great card and the real deal. I've done fine running Vortex alone, with no Fires, but the split also has merit.

The big difference with Lands lists from the past is that now we have Tireless Tracker in the sideboard, who is an absolute house against every kind of disruption people bring against this deck, Surgical Extraction right along with the rest of the familiar Rest In Peace, Blood Moon, etc that people have.

[sdematt]

I think Tracker seriously changed the way we can play around hate with this deck. I think Tracker is an excellent "transformational" option to have, plus the card draw. Yum yum.

[Ancestral]

yeah i think i´ll drop a fire or two for molten vortex too. probably a split, because i guess i´m too confortable with p-fires.

ABout the trackers i´m running 3x at the moment, didn´t come up very often but let´s see

[Sparkii]

I went 7-3 at Eternal Weekend with RUG lands with zero ports and 4 ghost quarters. I can post a list later.

[Ancestral]

I went 7-3 at Eternal Weekend with RUG lands with zero ports and 4 ghost quarters. I can post a list later.

congratz it´s a pretty good run ! I would like that

[Sparkii]

Here's the list I played:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Exploration
3 Intuition
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Trinisphere

[Sockosensei]

re: D&T matchup
Prelate will be set to two, and Revoker most likely on Vortex if named in the blind. If you're on RUG Lands, use the element of surprise with Engineered Explosives by not showing Tropical Island or Tolaria West early in game 1.

Also, the WW mana for Prelate can be surprisingly inconsistent for them in the early turns, a point in favor of Ports over Ghost Quarters for this particular matchup. It's going to be a slog no matter what though.

[Sparkii]

re: D&T matchup
Prelate will be set to two, and Revoker most likely on Vortex if named in the blind. If you're on RUG Lands, use the element of surprise with Engineered Explosives by not showing Tropical Island or Tolaria West early in game 1.

Also, the WW mana for Prelate can be surprisingly inconsistent for them in the early turns, a point in favor of Ports over Ghost Quarters for this particular matchup. It's going to be a slog no matter what though.

I did this at Eternal Weekend. He went Mother of Runes, Recruiter for Flicker, Flicker Recruiter, grab a Flicker, and then once he saw I was on lands tutored Prelate for 2. EE to wipe his board besides the mom and got double punishing fire online.

[Crimhead]

At the end of the day, lands doesn't seem to have any great matchups anymore (Eldrazi being probably the biggest exception). Even delver has become more difficult as they've adopted needles, winter orbs, and surgicals to combat the meta. DnT used to be an easy win, but is now unfavored for RG and probably 55-60 for us with RUG. Miracles remains a toss up. Delver has become more of a toss up. Shardless/Jund has become a smaller part of the meta. On the other hand, there are more blood moon decks to beat up on the DtB; and combo is still a pretty terrible matchup.

On the other hand, combo is also on the down-tick, so we don't have a lot of dismal matches either. If you go by the DTB, (which include Lands, btw) we have two highly favourable matches and two (or three) close to even matches.

I do agree that D&T has become much harder for RGCL, and that the reduced combo presence means a fast Marit Lage is less clutch. If Lands is trending downward it might be because RG players are not testing or considering RUG, which may be better positioned right now. Compare this to the RGB builds quick RG players seem much more willing to experiment with.


I don't think it's such a bad time to play Lands, it's just a little different than it was before. Intuition should be evaluated again. I've got it as a 1-of now, with Gambles filling in the blanks.
Why do you say this? More GY hate than in the past (Surgical)?


Molten Vortex is a great card and the real deal. I've done fine running Vortex alone, with no Fires, but the split also has merit.

I'm currently running:

2x Punishing Fire (with 3 Groves)
2x Molten Vortex
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Barbarian Ring

I've doubled up on the Taiga to help support Vortex and BRing. I cut the Bayou so my side board has no AD and no Nethervoid. Running a 3/2 Port, GQ split - wanting to go 2/3 but I need to pick up a third Quarter.

[Crimhead]

I haven't played much this fall, but I've been advised that lands has become more popular in my meta (including one dedicated RUG player). This means I'm going to be playing more mirrors than ever before!

I'm assuming TT will be an all-star in these games post board. But I'd like to hear how that card will change the arnature of the mirror matches - including RUG vs RUG, RUG vs R/G, and RUG vs RBG. Are there cards we used to board out that should now stay in? Are the cards we used to bring in which should now stay out. Mirrors used to me mostly about cutting off green sources and establishing a Bog-lock. Are these still the first priorities?

Thanks for any insight!

[mgrinshpon]

I'm currently running:

2x Punishing Fire (with 3 Groves)
2x Molten Vortex
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Barbarian Ring

I've doubled up on the Taiga to help support Vortex and BRing. I cut the Bayou so my side board has no AD and no Nethervoid. Running a 3/2 Port, GQ split - wanting to go 2/3 but I need to pick up a third Quarter.

I'm about 99% sure that I want to bring the ol' RUG lands out of the binder and was doing some theory-crafting (it's been like a year and change since I've played the deck). Is 2/2/2 really the way to go with Intuition in the deck? Intuition really rewards someone for running 3-ofs in the deck. Also, I really dislike Barbarian Ring against its proposed targets of (presumably) DRS and Sanctum Prelate, especially post-board, where Surgicals, Rest in Peaces, and who knows what else lurk. Against DRS+Surgical decks, Chalice+removal seems better than trying to get Threshold and getting blown out. Against D&T, especially post-board, Threshold will never be reached because of Rest in Peace.

So, question: I've never boarded with Tireless Trackers in my life since I didn't play this deck while that card was out. Has anyone tried any board strategies with 'em? What are y'all doing in that regard?

[Crimhead]

Is 2/2/2 really the way to go with Intuition in the deck? Intuition really rewards someone for running 3-ofs in the deck.EE and PF can be fetched with Intuition as singletons because you also get the recursion land. I guess I could go one PF and three MV; something to think about.


Also, I really dislike Barbarian Ring against its proposed targets of (presumably) DRS and Sanctum Prelate, especially post-board, where Surgicals, Rest in Peaces, and who knows what else lurk. Against DRS+Surgical decks, Chalice+removal seems better than trying to get Threshold and getting blown out. Against D&T, especially post-board, Threshold will never be reached because of Rest in Peace.I like Ring in RUG Lands - even played it a bit before Prelate was a card. DRS and RIP can hinder threshold, but it's absolutely false that threshold can "never be reached" vs D&T. They typically run two or three copies without any tutors, CA, or filters, and we can always Grip it and rebuild. Surgical is a pain, but CotV stops it cold. More importantly, the presence of Surgical should be encouraging us to diversify our removal package.

The flip-side is, wile BRing is soft to graveyard hate, it is our best against counter-magic or Mom. It's also another ed source, which is clutch if we are running Vortex.


So, question: I've never boarded with Tireless Trackers in my life since I didn't play this deck while that card was out. Has anyone tried any board strategies with 'em? What are y'all doing in that regard?Bring Tracker in against anything that might threaten our primary engine, which is pretty much everything. Bob is no longer a card for this deck IMO.

[GoldenCid]

I cant think this deck without ports....

I Miss zuran + loam + chasm lock. Nobody trying it out? It was so strong

[Crimhead]

I cant think this deck without ports....

I Miss zuran + loam + chasm lock. Nobody trying it out? It was so strong
I'm running a split of Port & GQ. Still have Zorb in the 75 too!

[Lormador]

After acquiring my initial Tabernacle last summer and testing on Cockatrice since then, I've finally got this deck built on paper. I've been tinkering with it a lot and would appreciate any suggestions.

// 60 Maindeck
// 6 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond
2 Engineered Explosives

// 6 Enchantment
4 Exploration
2 Molten Vortex

// 4 Instant
4 Crop Rotation

// 36 Land
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
1 Academy Ruins
2 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest

// 8 Sorcery
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble


// 15 Sideboard
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Tireless Tracker
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Karakas

A few of the choices are made regarding cards I haven't acquired yet (Ports and Groves), so suggestions regarding those I won't be able to incorporate at this time.

Rather than starting with an actual RUG lands list, I got this by modifying a Dark Lands build (since these are the decks featuring Molten Vortex and Ghost Quarter).

Does the ability to tutor for and recur Tormod's Crypt make it playable as gravehate #2?

Does cutting Intuition for Gamble (since I have to be more heavily red than usual for Barbarian Ring and Vortex) work?

Is the Karakas in the sideboard a necessary slot, outside of the mirror?

Should I be playing another Tireless Tracker or Nissa, Vital Force in that slot?

I have a big tournament coming up next weekend. It would be great to go deep with Lands.

[Crimhead]

Welcome to paper Lands!

No PF seems iffy. Decks that run this way are usually Jund builds that main deck AD for extra removal. It might be worth adding a third EE and/or Vortex to compensate (I am aware you are running Ring).

Crypt is fine as a secondary yard hoser. It does argue for Intuition, though. I'd shave of a CR and one or two Gambles, adding in the extra removal piece and one or two Intuitions.

I also recommend Crucible as a back-up engine (especially if Prelate is a thing where you play). If you want main deck space, lose a Thicket or two.

Never leave home without Karakas! It's good vs Teeg and Thalia, plus you'll steal the occasional game vs Sneak Show or Reanimator.

For your SB, I strongly recommend a fourth Grip. You can go down to three CotV. Also consider swapping out two 3balls for Spheres of Resistance.

Otherwise, looks great and best of luck!


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Edit - I want to further stress my recomendation for Intuition. RUG is slower than RG, so it really helps to have the (more costly but) more powerful tutor. For example, if you Gamble for EE, you either discard it or you can use it once. Intuition for EE, Ruins, and another card (Loam if you need it), and it becomes a board wiping engine! Especially without PFs, Gamble will not come to your rescue.

Im all for RUG/RG hybrid builds, but without Intuition yours looks like RG with a blue splash for AR/EE - I have not heard good things about this strategy.

If you go for Intuition, think piles. A 3/2 Vortex/EE split is better than the other way around because Intuition nedds 3 Vorticies but only one EE. Similarly go 3/2 with CR/Gamble because you might want to Intuition into the former but never the latter. Dont go bellow 3 CotVs in the SB. This is the way you want to think with Intuition builds.

I don't claim to be an expert, and this deck has a strong core allowing for many configurations which can "get the job done". Just giving you my opinions. :smile:

[Lormador]

Thanks so much for the great response.

I went up to 4 Gamble 0 Intuition in testing, and while I appreciated how it expanded the range of keepable hands, I did find myself running out of value and actually losing types of positions that I would have mopped up previously. I think you're right, Intuition goes back in (especially as I'm not running Manabond). I only have access to 1 of these before the weekend, so it'll have to do.

Three Vortex is certainly supportable. I believe at first that I was simple unaccustomed to playing with the card. After a few games where I won just with it and a Loam, I'm back on board.

I had already cut one Chalice for the Tormod's Crypt, reasoning that the Chalices are for combo and a lot of combo at the moment seems to be Reanimator. That's the one in the DTB section anyway. I have also heard that Sneak/Show is back, but I expect that the MU there is too bad to be salvaged. Perhaps that's why you suggest Sphere of Resistance over 3ball.

Karakas had already found its way back in by the time you posted your reply. I originally cut the card because I found Thalia not to be the beating she's always been against me (I come from Miracles)... then realized that it's actually a great value card in the mirror.

I'm probably bringing in K-grip at the wrong times, because I've been Needled out of a few games and never seem to feel like I need it. Tireless Tracker, on the other hand, is my backup engine and responsible for about half of the sideboard wins. I pushed his numbers up to 4 and it's the only slot in the board that I don't feel is negotiable at all. Not even a little. I almost want to play Vital Force as Tracker #5.

[kravkenov]

Hi Guys, long time not posting anything on this thread (because I was experimenting Miracle). Now, I'm back to Lands and I want to share with you my latest build where "black is the new blue".


So first, I want to talk about the mana denial plan which consist of Rishadan Port, Ghost Quarter and Wasteland.
Ghost Quarter seems like under rated for long time and I think it deserve more slot. In some matchup, it is just as strong as Wasteland early game and can really shine in grindy long games, cutting off color almost any deck. I experimented it as a 1 of, then 2 copy and now I'm playing a whole playset because it is that strong. Of course I had to make some room, and I shaved 2 copies of Rishadan.

Now about the choice of black over blue. In my modest experience with the RUG list, I felt Explosives and Academy to be a bit slow, and I rarely faced situation where multiple Explosives activation in a row were absolutely needed to recover from a bad board state. In fact, it was mainly used to get ride of one piece of hate, not that much because once that hate is gone, the Lands deck just go ahead and close up the game. For this reason, I think Abrupt Decay is more adapted. Of course it can be loamed right into the grave, but as Exploration or Crop Rotation will do.

Tutoring. Yes, Tolaria West is awesome. It is almost uncounterable and recurable with Loam. For this remplacement I aimed at Grim Tutor. Same cmc and except the fact it is a counterable sorcery, it can Tutor for anything right into the hand (such a great Tutor). Of course Intuition is by some edges superior (being instant speed help a lot, and also tutoring a pile that close the game if not answered), but it also have some weakness, to not tutor for a single silver bullet that you need right in hand. Experimenting Grim Tutor will tell how it good/bad for this deck.

I tweaked also a bit the Lands part of the deck to fit this new configuration. Sadly I didn't have yet done much test, but a the first sight, it's a strong list also.

No more waiting, here is the my "Dark Land" build (still under construction as you might thing).

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Molten Vortex
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
2 Grim Tutor
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

2 Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Trinisphere
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Boil
1 Zuran Orb
1 Karakas


Tell me what do you thing about, and if you see the same good potentiel of this list as I do !

[Rockman000]

By sacrificing the control and grindy elements in blue, you're shifting more towards RG combo lands. Wouldn't Gamble be a much better than Grim Tutor anyways?

[Crimhead]

Hi Guys, long time not posting anything on this thread (because I was experimenting Miracle). Now, I'm back to Lands and I want to share with you my latest build where "black is the new blue".Welcome back!


So first, I want to talk about the mana denial plan which consist of Rishadan Port, Ghost Quarter and Wasteland. Ghost Quarter seems like under rated for long time and I think it deserve more slot. Actually most Lands decks are running four GQs and no Ports these days. I'm running a 3/2 split myself.


Now about the choice of black over blue. In my modest experience with the RUG list, I felt Explosives and Academy to be a bit slow, and I rarely faced situation where multiple Explosives activation in a row were absolutely needed to recover from a bad board state. In fact, it was mainly used to get ride of one piece of hate, not that much because once that hate is gone, the Lands deck just go ahead and close up the game. For this reason, I think Abrupt Decay is more adapted. Of course it can be loamed right into the grave, but as Exploration or Crop Rotation will do.A RBG list (largely credited to David Long) has been having solid success in the big events. He runs black for Abrupt Decays (main) and Thoughseize in the board.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13952&d=282611&f=LE

You will note he runs more red mana sources than you do. With Vortex you will want more than one in play, and your list looks a little light.


Tutoring. Yes, Tolaria West is awesome. It is almost uncounterable and recurable with Loam. For this remplacement I aimed at Grim Tutor. Same cmc and except the fact it is a counterable sorcery, it can Tutor for anything right into the hand (such a great Tutor). Of course Intuition is by some edges superior (being instant speed help a lot, and also tutoring a pile that close the game if not answered), but it also have some weakness, to not tutor for a single silver bullet that you need right in hand. Experimenting Grim Tutor will tell how it good/bad for this deck.I agree with Rockman that Grim is not sufficiently better than Gamble for the cost. Not only that, but you dont have enough black to even reliably support it.

The comparison to Academy Ruins is misleading. AR is intended to be good later in the game. Early on we pitch it to Mox or Vortex, or we play it as a land (with the option to Waste, CR, or Chasm it away later). We Loam it back to our hand when we need it. What it doesnt to is tutor for a Loam. We need a Tutor for that, be it Intuition or be it Gamble.

Another option in black is Entomb. Im not sure if you are aware of Kennen Haas's top place (SCG, Jan 2014) Jund Depths list? This won a major event right amids the breaking out of RG combo Lands builds. Sometimes I think that deck took off mostly while this didnt due go the (largely arbitrary) inclusion of double Tabernacle in Haas's Depths!

Jund Depths
Kennen Haas
1st Place at StarCityGames Legacy Open on 1/5/2014

Lands (30)
1Badlands
2Bayou
1Bloodstained Mire
1Bojuka Bog
4Grove of the Burnwillows
1Maze of Ith
1Taiga
3Thespian’s Stage
4Verdant Catacombs
4Wasteland
2Wooded Foothills
1Karakas
1The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2Dark Depths

Creatures (2)
1Nether Spirit
1Squee, Goblin Nabob

Planeswalker (4)
4Liliana of the Veil

Spells (24)
4Mox Diamond
2Crop Rotation
4Entomb
1Punishing Fire
4Faithless Looting
4Life from the Loam
1Raven’s Crime
4Smallpox

Sideboard
3Pithing Needle
1Sphere of Resistance
1Phyrexian Ingester
1Exploration
1Ancient Grudge
1Coffin Purge
1Crop Rotation
1Punishing Fire
1Ray of Revelation
2Innocent Blood
1Maze of Ith
1The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

There is a thread for this archetype, if you'd be interested.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27346-Jund-Depths

This is probably a better starting point if you want to run Grim Tutor. Some people consider it more of a Punishing Loam-Pox deck than a Dark Lands deck, but I suppose that's perhaps a little grey. The thread does include some ideas and lists for less poxy more landsy builds. There are lots of good idea's here!

Best of luck! I was toying with a heavy black list in hopes to run Smallpox (which would be a total bomb for us), but the deck space I was using to support double black was just not worth it for the amount of black I actually wanted to run. I'm sure I'll revisit Dark Lands at some point.

[kravkenov]

Wouldn't Gamble be a much better than Grim Tutor anyways?

Gamble is a kind of Tutor you really want in your opening hand, meaning playing the full set.
I was playing Classic RUG Lands with 2 Gamble main. While in opening hand Gamble is super cool, later in the game it lose lot of its power because we usually have less cards in hand. Except tutoring for recurable piece (Loam, Punishing Fire, etc.) on a clear field and not facing graveyard-hate (DRS and Co.), it's a bit useless to play only 2 Gamble.
But I actually didn't test Grim Tutor seriously, so I can't tell if it is completely crap or a real all-round silver bullet.

[Crimhead]

Gamble is a kind of Tutor you really want in your opening hand, meaning playing the full set.
I was playing Classic RUG Lands with 2 Gamble main. While in opening hand Gamble is super cool, later in the game it lose lot of its power because we usually have less cards in hand. Except tutoring for recurable piece (Loam, Punishing Fire, etc.) on a clear field and not facing graveyard-hate (DRS and Co.), it's a bit useless to play only 2 Gamble.
But I actually didn't test Grim Tutor seriously, so I can't tell if it is completely crap or a real all-round silver bullet.With Loam, litterally any land in or deck is a "recurable piece".

As for wanting four, two tutors (that find Loam) is too few for this deck imo.

[kravkenov]

With Loam, litterally any land in or deck is a "recurable piece".

As for wanting four, two tutors (that find Loam) is too few for this deck imo.

Recurring with loam or Burning Grove or what ever works only if your opponent dosent interact with your graveyard.
Against an active DRS, there is close to no-way of recurring your Tutor target. This is why I think Gamble is at its best as a playset because you want to use it with lot of cards in hand (to mitigate the "Gamble") and with a clear field (o avoid being counterbalanced, or grave-hated).

Grim Tutor just give into your hand the card you tutored for. Very strong ! But it cost 3 cmc...

Again, it is just a work in progress and as I don't really have time nor opportunity to make some serious test, I come here to share this project to see how people feel about switching blue for black with a not-yet mature list.

[Sparkii]

Been tearing it up locally with this list. Barbarian ring is amazing right now. I've only missed ports once so far playing this list for a few months now and it was against Omni which isn't a match anyways.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
2 Intuition
2 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Subterranean Tremors
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Sphere of Resistance

[kravkenov]

There is a thread for this archetype, if you'd be interested.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27346-Jund-Depths

This is probably a better starting point if you want to run Grim Tutor. Some people consider it more of a Punishing Loam-Pox deck than a Dark Lands deck, but I suppose that's perhaps a little grey. The thread does include some ideas and lists for less poxy more landsy builds. There are lots of good idea's here!

Best of luck! I was toying with a heavy black list in hopes to run Smallpox (which would be a total bomb for us), but the deck space I was using to support double black was just not worth it for the amount of black I actually wanted to run. I'm sure I'll revisit Dark Lands at some point.

Ha yeah thank you, I will scout around a see what's being cooked there.

[Lormador]

I did some experimenting with Todd Anderson's Jund Depths build from the period after Haas won that event. That's surely not a bad place to start if we're on a "black is the new blue" kick.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_jund_depths_with_tod.html

I really like the transformational combo sideboard with this one, but that doesn't make it good!

It is a bad sign that I am sorely tempted to sleeve up Mishra's Factory just because I have all the weird seasons, but I am not that far gone. Decisions based on art will not be made.

EDIT: I took my RUG lands deck to a large tourney and had a bit of a tough time.
2-1 Eldrazi (dropped game 1 due to incorrect plays on my part)
1-2 Sneak/Show (killed a Griselbrand with Molten Vortex, but it wasn't enough)
2-0 Burn (opponent mulls to 4 first game, can't beat 3sphere and quick combo in game 2)
1-2 Grixis Delver (killed all the opponent's lands, then died to a zombie fish / pyromancer tokens)
1-2 Shardless BUG (Liliana ultimate)
1-2 4-color Stoneblade (I don't even know how this happened)
2-0 R/G combo lands (used his own Depths G1, had Exploration advantage G2)

I certainly cannot complain about matchups, I won the one that should have been 50/50 (Lands mirror) and stole a game against Sneak/Show. I triumphed clearly over Burn, thanks to luck. Yet I did not win several of the matchups the deck is supposed to be great against. Part of these losses were clearly due to my own errors, and some were just unfortunate (I must have dredged 21 cards against a lone zombie fish without finding a single Maze, Tabernacle, or Tolaria West).

So, to some extent it's back to the drawing board.

I've noticed that the combo decks in my area are now dominated by Sneaky/Show and BR Reanimator, so I think Chalice and Trinisphere's stock is falling while other cards are going up. I am going to try Primeval Titan, which should be an ugly sideboard surprise for Sneaky Show and can go in for 1-2 of the Tracker slots (since it's an "engine" by itself just as Tracker is).

Probably my main problem is the lack of Punishing Fire. This would have killed a lot of the small creatures that troubled me more efficiently than the solutions I wound up going for. The Grixis player killed me, once, with those Pyromancer tokens that I wound up Loaming Barbarian Ring for again and again as my life total dwindled (I finished them off just as I hit 3, for the sandbagged Volcanic Island + Bolt kill).

[non-inflammable]

I did some experimenting with Todd Anderson's Jund Depths build from the period after Haas won that event. That's surely not a bad place to start if we're on a "black is the new blue" kick.

I just watched the video on his card choices. He did also say the deck needed another green source and another urborg.
I liked what he did but one card I would consider is vengeful pharaoh, especially if you are going on the 4 entomb list.
Not sure if it would hurt your nether spirit interactions?

I wanted to get 4 Winter's Mishras Factorys to run all 4 but only ever could get one.
All jokes aside, I purchased a forcefield for my EDH deck. Could it be a one-of in RUG lands?

[Lormador]

I've been working with RUG lands for a few months, and many thanks to Sparkii for posting the list above: it's worked out the best for me. However, I'd like to return to the Ghost Quarter vs. Rishadan Port question.

I understand that the switch gained a lot of momentum in RG Combo Lands and Dark Lands. It seems pretty straightforward why it would work well in RG Combo: with the deck so intensely focused on getting out a quick Marit Lage (often with 4 Depths 4 Stage 4 Gamble), often enough all it needs from the Ghost Quarter is taking down a white source or Karakas. There isn't any effect in the MD that costs more than 2 mana. Port seems to have been found to be needlessly slow in the deck.

I don't understand the role of GQ vs. Port in Dark Lands, not having played the deck enough. I've played that deck only enough to know that using Loam there is much more dangerous than elsewhere, you're quite likely to loam desirable cards into the graveyard.

Finally, here in RUG Lands is my point. There are effects in the MD that range from mild to extremely mana-intensive: Intuition, casting + cracking Engineered Explosives, and using Academy Ruins to do both. Port lends itself to building up the large amounts of mana required for these effects in a way that GQ does not. How, in light of this, was anyone able to come to the conclusion that the deck could be improved by playing 4 GQs over 4 Ports?

[Crimhead]

Finally, here in RUG Lands is my point. There are effects in the MD that range from mild to extremely mana-intensive: Intuition, casting + cracking Engineered Explosives, and using Academy Ruins to do both. Port lends itself to building up the large amounts of mana required for these effects in a way that GQ does not. How, in light of this, was anyone able to come to the conclusion that the deck could be improved by playing 4 GQs over 4 Ports?
Port is indeed better for stalling and building mana (especially when we have no Mox or Exploration), but due to the nature of the meta many matches are improved regardless.

Miracles is a long grind and getting rid of their :w: is relevant (plus we can strip all their basics)! Delver and Eldrazi have no basics and it wrecks them. Elves and Infect have almost no basics, but they also run lands that Port doesn't handle well (Cradle and Nexus). Even Midrange decks like Shardless or Loam or Jund run very few basics and GQ can help run them out of mana very quickly. Do they fetch a dual and risk Wasteland, or fetch a basic and cut into their GQ protection?

Most of the meta is softer to GQ, and with much of the rest it doesn't make a lot of difference (eg, Sneak Show, Reanimator). I guess even for a slower deck, mana denial is a big part of our plan. And GQ just seems like better denial right now for all configurations of this archetype (edit - my experience with RGB builds is minimal).

[Lormador]

Well, I'd say against Sneaky Show GQ is better than Port because running them out of red sources is a strong line if we have Karakas available.

The MU is a huge long shot anyway, but they need RR to Sneak through a Karakas and there's all of 1 basic mountain in the deck.

[non-inflammable]

The MU is a huge long shot anyway, but they need RR to Sneak through a Karakas and there's all of 1 basic mountain in the deck.

sneak attack

your opponent can put griselbrand or emrakul into play at the "very" end of your turn.

they untap and have a creature "still" in play and a red source to your one karakas.

I agree, the MU is poor. I just played 5 straight games and only won 1 (pre-board).

[Lormador]

I agree, the MU is very poor indeed. Good job stealing that one win!

Let's put together a list of the sideboard options available and test them out. My luck is that once I put a lot of these cards into the board I never hit this MU to test them. They have alternate uses (or they wouldn't be worth the space), but that's not what I want to investigate.

Tireless Tracker: brought in because of Blood Moon, I've tested this one and (predictably) he's not enough by himself
Phyrexian Revoker: I got to test this one, and he truly is as good in the field as he is on paper
Sphere of Resistance: heavily recommended by others, but I haven't drawn it in a test match yet. Theoretically awesome
Krosan Grip: hits Moon, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, so it's a necessary evil (see the note for Tireless Tracker)

That's all really standard stuff, and I'm sure 3/4 of those cards are in almost everyone's sideboard already. Now on to the speculative stuff.

Pyroblast: hits Show and Tell, doesn't it? Surely Legacy has enough splash value to make this mentionable, unimpressive when I tested it
Primeval Titan: Most of the reason Cloudpost vs. Sneaky Show isn't nearly as lopsided is this big guy
Swan Song: It sounds like a bad idea because the bird might kill us, but it hits all their combo cards as well as Blood Moon; untested

[Sockosensei]

If we're looking to specifically combat Sneak and Show, then Ensnaring Bridge needs to be considered. If your meta is infested, then a maindeck Bridge to Gamble for makes sense as they can't beat it in G1.

[Sparkii]

If we're looking to specifically combat Sneak and Show, then Ensnaring Bridge needs to be considered. If your meta is infested, then a maindeck Bridge to Gamble for makes sense as they can't beat it in G1.

Some versions of sneak are also running Omni. I guess it just depends. I also haven't been a fan of bridge with marit lages, of course.

I have played a lot of revoker in the board in the past and even now I miss them sometimes. Turning things like LED off can be backbreaking.

[Crimhead]

I've ported this from another thread:


This is just a side question, but what is the benefit of running RUG vs RG? Don't get me wrong, I like EE lock, tolaria west, etc, and that style of play appeals to me way more than "turbo 20/20" does. But it seems like you may as well just make a 20/20 instead of trying to get the opponent to 0 permanents.
Even in the RG builds prison is hugely important, otherwise Hexmage Turbo Depths would be a better deck.

With EE it's not so much about reducing your opponent to zero permanents (though I have done that, but usually with Wasteland plus Tabernacle). EE is simply removal that can bail you out of situations where PF or MV would fail. EE is recurrable but can't be eaten by DRS, and it plays nicely around Chalice, Prelate,and Counter-Top (the deck in general has more varied mana costs and is just better against these hosers). It ignores protection and shroud, it can kill multiple creatures at once, and even non-creatures. You can tutor it up with (uncounterable) TWest.

RUG is slower, but it has the tools to better survive a longer game (including more powerful but higher cc tutors). There are exceptions, but generally RG is better against decks that don't have a lot of outs to Marit Lage, while RUG tends to do better in longer, grindy matches. Really it's a meta call.

[Lormador]

That's about the size of it.

In terms of matchups, EE makes its presence felt in the biggest way against DnT and Miracles. DnT would otherwise be pretty hard, since Marit Lage is basically never going to happen and they can completely shut off CMC 2.

I think RUG Lands stands a pretty good chance of taking down game 1 against both of those decks, and then not needing a heavy sideboard (Boseiju and Boil, Kozilek's Return, etc) to stand a chance in the later games.

It's not all upside, of course. I've had a pretty hard time getting RUG to work well against BUG control, whereas RG Combo just jams an EOT Marit Lage and watches the fireworks.

[Sockosensei]

Some versions of sneak are also running Omni. I guess it just depends. I also haven't been a fan of bridge with marit lages, of course.

I have played a lot of revoker in the board in the past and even now I miss them sometimes. Turning things like LED off can be backbreaking.

Yeah, I assumed that the Ensnaring Bridge plan would lean on alternate wincons, a combination of Tireless Trackers, Molten Vortex, P. Fire, Mill, or Tabernacle-Waste-Quarter them to 0 perms. The first order of business in that matchup is not dying. I'm happy to sort out winning afterwards.

Revoker is still great in the meta.

[Dice_Box]

EE gives you outs that Combo does not have access to until after sideboarding. The question when it comes to the two decks is what do you value more: Speed of attack or Power of Inevitably?

[non-inflammable]

Been tearing it up locally with this list. Barbarian ring is amazing right now. I've only missed ports once so far playing this list for a few months now and it was against Omni which isn't a match anyways.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
2 Intuition
2 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Subterranean Tremors
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Sphere of Resistance


i got a foil Subterranean Tremors just to play your list this coming legacy event.
i will post up my results...

EDIT: i started to make your list and realized i can make your RUG list and have RG Lands "almost" also completely built

tabernacle = covered

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v220/freedomxxx/tab_zpsy0us9h9s.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/freedomxxx/media/tab_zpsy0us9h9s.jpg.html)

[Lormador]

That list IS totally sweet, and if it's not considered the main line right now then I don't know what is.

I do think Ports are missable instead of GQs when you're planning to EE that much, but I don't have any idea what the ideal configuration is. Sparkii has good reasons for running the GQs. Over in the Miracles thread they are planning to deal with those however.

The argument there is that GQ doesn't keep them off curve for 2-3-4 drops, and they can sandbag a plains.

[Crimhead]

That list IS totally sweet, and if it's not considered the main line right now then I don't know what is.

My list is:

-2 Crop Rotation
-1 EE
-1 PF

+2 Molten Vortex
+1 Tolaria West
+1 Riftstone Portal

I have some Moons in my local meta, so I like the Portal. Vortex is good against Moon (and I also see D&T and Miracles). I don't like go below two TWests because I like to be able to intuition into double TWest plus Crucible (a lot of Extraction here too). I do really miss the third Crop Rotation because I lime to play Intuition > Crop Rotation > Bog sometimes.

Also in the board I'm running Zorb over Tremors because of Burn and R/U Delver.


I have also heard that Sneak/Show is back, but I expect that the MU there is too bad to be salvaged. Perhaps that's why you suggest Sphere of Resistance over 3ball.

3Ball is redundant in multiples and much harder to cast turn one. That's why I like the 3-1 split. When I'm running a black splash I actually prefer Nether Void in that spot. But Molten Vortex demands a heavy commitment in red, so black is currently on ice for me.

[Sparkii]

What does double TWest + Crucible as an intuition pile do? I don't think I'd ever consider that pile.

[CptHaddock]

What does double TWest + Crucible as an intuition pile do? I don't think I'd ever consider that pile.

It lets you get a crucible i.e. west -> academy ruins or they just let you have the crucible.

[Crimhead]

It lets you get a crucible i.e. west -> academy ruins or they just let you have the crucible.
This. It's mostly a pile for when Loam has been Extracted or is blocked by a CotV/Prelate.

[non-inflammable]

Has anyone seriously considered burgeoning?

Imagine your opponent getting flustered when you get a "may" trigger during their main phase land drop.
I'm pretty sure there are only a few cards in MTG that can do this.

Just as possible, your opponent decides not to play their land so you don't get a trigger and can advance your own board?
An aside to the burgeoning trigger, you don't "play" a land, you put it into play.
Is their any "wiggle space" in the wording of burgeoning to include it over other ramp cards?

[Lormador]

I can think of these times when I would really, really like a surprise trigger on the other player's turn when I otherwise wouldn't get priority:

1) They just put Omniscience into play via Show and Tell and I want to Krosan Grip it;
2) They ran out LED with a hand full of cards.

The problem with both of these moves is that it requires the opponent to willingly run face first into them, and they'll certainly have read Burgeoning the moment I played it. The card looks like Browbeat for Lands, the opponent gets to control too much and Legacy decks function on far too few lands for it to consistently be worth the space. Manabond is better, and a lot of lists are down to 0 of those.

@Crimhead
I'll try your version then. One thing I'm excited about is Riftstone Portal: every time I see a list with that I get all happy and put Primeval Titan into the board.

[Crimhead]

@Crimhead
I'll try your version then. One thing I'm excited about is Riftstone Portal: every time I see a list with that I get all happy and put Primeval Titan into the board.
Riftstone Portal is lots of fun - and a godsend vs Moon. Pitching it to a Mox is most satisfying!

This can also give you a turn two combo. Mox plus Stage plus Depths with Portal in the yard a 20/20 makes!
I once took an opponent of guard with Mox plus Forest plus Stage on board. EOT Crop away the Forest into Portal; then float the mana and Crop the Portal into a DD. Opponent had tapped out thinking I was at least one turn away.

I think I'm going down to one Gamble in favour of a third CR next time though.

@Non-Inflammable, I'm with Lormador. Burgeoning is too often a 1cc brick. Fantastic in EDH Lands though!

[Lormador]

Been tearing it up locally with this list. Barbarian ring is amazing right now. I've only missed ports once so far playing this list for a few months now and it was against Omni which isn't a match anyways.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
2 Intuition
2 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Subterranean Tremors
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Sphere of Resistance

My own thoughts and adjustments on this gold standard list are these. I think 3 Explosives is too many, and two copies of this card are enough. I feel the same way about Punishing Fire, and I think Crucible of Worlds (if we run it) should be in the sideboard. So I play with:

-1 Crucible
-1 EE
-1 Punishing Fire

+1 Manabond
+1 Tranquil Thicket
+1 Riftstone Portal

[Sparkii]

Yeah 3 explosives is a lot, but I just love the power level on the card. I don't think I'd drop to 2 fires, there's plenty of matchups you really want them.

Crucible is fine in the side though, for sure. Manabond is always been a tricky one for me, but seems fine as a gamble target.

[Lormador]

Yeah Manabond is a blowout one way or the other, but I think the good outweighs the bad and a 5th accelerant is a necessity, even if it doesn't play well with Intuition. Or anything, really.

I have to say that an opponent's T1 Manabond has won me a lot of mirrors though. That T1 Crop Rotation afterwards is just so ugly.

Fortunately the state of sideboards now, with Tireless coming in so much, make it really simple to play cards that are amazing G1 but liabilities G2+3. Tracker is going to come in 90% of the time. At least I board him in that much, at least. Is that wrong? Against combo I want a clock, and against others I have to prepare for my engine to get disrupted.

EDIT:

@Crimhead

I tried going down to 2 Crop Rotation and it was a bust. The card is so necessary against Reanimator, it's almost the only card in our deck sometimes.

I am currently trying 3 of these and that seems to be working out. 4 might be right though.

[non-inflammable]

not sure if this should be posted here, but it is cool.
i love the 4 tolaria west.


4th Bryan Hoyt [Ad Nauseam Lands]
Main Deck

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
2 Maze of Ith
2 Polluted Delta
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Tolaria West
3 Underground Sea
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Wasteland


1 Ad Nauseam
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cunning Wish
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grapeshot
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Diamond
4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
1 Zuran Orb



1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dread Of Night
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Fatal Push
2 Flusterstorm
1 Lightning Storm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard ( 15)

[snorlaxcom]

not sure if this should be posted here, but it is cool.
i love the 4 tolaria west.)

No, but it's an interesting egg list. Eldrazi should be a pain in the ass.

[Lormador]

Fascinating deck, but definitely not the right thread for it. Turbo Depths is more akin to RUG Lands than that is, and I know of no player who would make the argument that they ought to be discussed together.

In my testing of the Sparkii list noted a few pages back, and just in general, I've come to a couple of notions I'd like to bounce off of more its more experienced players. If you would do me the kindness of your consideration, that would be appreciated.

First, I think the role of blue in the deck to possibly be overemphasized in some builds. Tolaria West, the reason the deck tries to be able to produce UU and one of the main cards it looks to in the endgame, is too slow. It was slow when it first appeared in the format years ago, and things have sped up since then. The deck has 8 one mana tutors available in the form of Crop Rotation and Gamble; and plenty more tutor power in the 3 CMC slot with Intuition. Tolaria West is recursive, but given how much mana it costs to do anything impressive with it when you add Loam costs on to Transmute cost, I suspect that in the majority of games the card is dead weight.

The "blue" card I definitely feel should be in the deck is Academy Ruins. There is tremendous value available in this card not just through Engineered Explosives, but through bringing back powerful sideboard artifacts that got Loamed away, like Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void. I would go so far as to claim that it's worth playing 1 Tropical Island just for 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Engineered Explosives (with a sideboard appropriately equipped with a selection of artifact hate).

I am on the fence about Intuition. Is playing this card outrageously greedy? Is it possible to play 2 copies of it off of 1 Tropical Island? The reverse numbers? I have decided to make the experiment of cutting it completely, and going down to the minimal 1 Academy Ruins, 1 EE in the MD with 4 Gamble.

Manabond is a card not included in the Sparkii list a few pages back that I think warrants additional consideration. I have been testing 2 copies and it is outstanding. The most powerful G1 accelerant isn't something we should leave on the sidelines.

I am also interested in exploring the theory that with so many tutors in the deck (8), the value of having 1 copy of a particular card in the deck exceeds the value of having a second copy: it should follow that if two different cards have roughly equal value in terms of an effect on the game, the deck will be better running 1 of each than 2 of either one.

Rishadan Port is also a card I have feelings about. I think it should be played more. There are reasons why it fell out of vogue, but I think the conditions it once thrived in will not continue to persist. There are three reasons that Rishadan Port is better than GQ. 1) it reduces the mana opponents have in the main phase, when they want to play stuff like Jace that can be hard to deal with; 2) You can copy it with Stage to pretty awesome effect; 3) it builds up your manabase for when you need to use Engineered Explosives.

So that's my current experiment. 8 tutors, minimum blue, and 4 Ports 1 GQ.

[Soldier of Fortune]

My buddy took down a 73 person Win a Mox Pearl yesterday with RUG Lands. He doesn't really post here but If I recall correctly he beat BR Reanimator, BR Reanimator, Elves, Infect, lost to Burn, beat Death and Taxes and the ID'd round seven for Top 8. In the Top 8 he beat BUG Delver, BUG Delver and Infect to win it all!

Instead of Rishadan Port he ran four Ghost Quarters which were amazing every game I saw him play but the real MVP was either Engineered Explosives or Barbarian Ring. Those cards just dealt with everything thrown at him. I'll see if I can get a decklist for you all.

[Sparkii]

My buddy took down a 73 person Win a Mox Pearl yesterday with RUG Lands. He doesn't really post here but If I recall correctly he beat BR Reanimator, BR Reanimator, Elves, Infect, lost to Burn, beat Death and Taxes and the ID'd round seven for Top 8. In the Top 8 he beat BUG Delver, BUG Delver and Infect to win it all!

Instead of Rishadan Port he ran four Ghost Quarters which were amazing every game I saw him play but the real MVP was either Engineered Explosives or Barbarian Ring. Those cards just dealt with everything thrown at him. I'll see if I can get a decklist for you all.

I saw the list on Reddit! It's almost a carbon copy of my list up on this page, cutting the second gamble to make it 75 cards and replacing a sphere of resistance and my flex slot with 2 surgicals. Congrats to your buddy!

[Sparkii]

Here's the list:

1st Place Tim Winter “RUG Lands”

4x Mox Diamond
3x Thespian’s Stage
1x Academy Ruins
3x Punishing Fire
4x Wasteland
4x Life from the Loam
1x Barbarian Ring
2x Taiga
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Exploration
4x Crop Rotation
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Tolaria West
2x Dark Depths
3x Maze of Ith
1x Glacial Chasm
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Forest
3x Engineered Explosives
1x Gamble
2x Tropical island
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Intuition
1x Karakas
Sideboard
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Trinisphere
3x Tireless Tracker
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Krosan Grip

[Lormador]

EDIT: I deleted the previous post, and I'm going to put in the additional testing info I've acquired in the meantime.

The theory of this list I've described above. Briefly, it's the idea that the value of the 1st card in a deck full of tutors gives more value than the 2nd copy. Should a deck have a sufficient number of viable tutor cards available, the optimal configuration will be a high percentage of them alongside a certain number of silver bullets.

I break up the deck like this:

34 land cards (the historical minimum)

4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Crop Rotation

1 Punishing Fire
1 Engineered Explosives

...So ok, there's 52 cards set in stone. I think most of the lists we're playing keep to this core of cards. I've seen some lists with fewer than 4 Crop Rotations and seen a respected fellow explain how he has worked with 3 Loams successfully in the past. But for the most part, folks add tutors, removal, and lands to this list to round out the deck: rarely a Crucible of Worlds.

A lot of lists add removal, going 2-3 Punishing Fire and 2-3 Engineered Explosives. The main thrust of my experiment was determining if it was right to do so. In my opinion, after trying a bunch of configurations, it is generally not right to do so. Running more tutors has been better for me. I suggest the following 8 cards to round out the list:

4 Gamble
2 Intuition
2 Manabond (T2 kills baby!)

Pretty much just straight tutors, along with 2 extra copies of a card you don't really want to tutor for (Exploration). I am also running the pair of Intuitions off a single Tropical Island with no problems (we're a Loam deck, after all). Well, there has been a small problem of running out of fetch targets, but no color screw problems now that I don't play Tolaria West.

I've noticed a couple of things since I started running this configuration. At first, there was little difference from previous attempts, or even a few more losses. I felt uncertain when resolving tutors, and would occasionally get the wrong thing and lose as a result. Now that I'm a bit more experienced, I tend to assemble harder problems for my opponents to solve, and they are accordingly less often able to do so. My opponents also express a lot more frustration now than they used to before.

I do a lot of testing on Cockatrice, and one of the most amusing consequences of the improved "Ten Tutor" list (4 Crop Rotation 4 Gamble 2 Intuition) has been a sharp uptick in ragequits and exasperated comments expressing disbelief that I got "the god hand" again.

In short, the Ten Tutors Plan has been awesome for me, comparable to way back when I jumped on the 4 Ponder in Miracles bandwagon. Give it a try, and maybe your very next opponent will lose his cool over how you just "always %#%$# have it!"

[Sparkii]

Split top 4 of ChannelFireBall's $3k (upped to $4k due to attendance) yesterday with RUG lands.

5-0 the Swiss then double draw into the top 8, beating Goblins in the quarterfinals. Didn't lose a game all day. Same list as before.

R1: RW Walker control/stompy
R2: Eldrazi and Taxes
R3: Burn
R4: Miracles
R5: RG Lands (small blue splash for ruins)


1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

4 Crop Rotation
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
2 Intuition
2 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Subterranean Tremors
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction

[non-inflammable]

Split top 4 of ChannelFireBall's $3k (upped to $4k due to attendance) yesterday with RUG lands.

congrats...

is the inclusion of 4 GQ and dropping of ports a done deal? i still want to run something like 3 GQ's and 2 ports.
also, is 3 maze of ith set in stone for RUG lands? i hate seeing maze when i need colored mana.

[Sparkii]

congrats...

is the inclusion of 4 GQ and dropping of ports a done deal? i still want to run something like 3 GQ's and 2 ports.
also, is 3 maze of ith set in stone for RUG lands? i hate seeing maze when i need colored mana.

Haven't been on ports in months. Loving the quarters. I think 3 maze is set, you could try an urborg or riftstone portal, though.

[Lormador]

That's a very impressive run, steamrolling right into the top 4 without dropping a game. It certainly lends a degree of weight to the proceedings.

It sounds to me like your round 5 opponent, the RG lands guy with a splash for Academy Ruins, might have been running a list similar to what I've been advocating. Would you mind going into a little more detail on how that matchup went, if you can recall?

Re: Port vs. GQ, I think we could probably make a pretty long list of notable differences between these cards. I personally think that Port has a long history of successful usage and numerous synergies with the deck that I cannot live without, particular synergies with Engineered Explosives, but the success of 4 GQ in the last year or so is pretty prominent. I am running 3 GQ and 2 Port, but I'm not the guy who just owned a 4K.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Split top 4 of ChannelFireBall's $3k (upped to $4k due to attendance) yesterday with RUG lands.

5-0 the Swiss then double draw into the top 8, beating Goblins in the quarterfinals. Didn't lose a game all day. Same list as before.

R1: RW Walker control/stompy
R2: Eldrazi and Taxes
R3: Burn
R4: Miracles
R5: RG Lands (small blue splash for ruins)
http://www.channelfireball.com/legacy-deck-lists/

I thought that top 4 list looked familiar. Great job! This maindeck has been working really well for me for a while now.

[Sparkii]

That's a very impressive run, steamrolling right into the top 4 without dropping a game. It certainly lends a degree of weight to the proceedings.

It sounds to me like your round 5 opponent, the RG lands guy with a splash for Academy Ruins, might have been running a list similar to what I've been advocating. Would you mind going into a little more detail on how that matchup went, if you can recall?

Re: Port vs. GQ, I think we could probably make a pretty long list of notable differences between these cards. I personally think that Port has a long history of successful usage and numerous synergies with the deck that I cannot live without, particular synergies with Engineered Explosives, but the success of 4 GQ in the last year or so is pretty prominent. I am running 3 GQ and 2 Port, but I'm not the guy who just owned a 4K.

The RG lands list made top 16 and is on the CFB website.

The games went as any mirror match should, resource fights into bog into finding Loam again. He was on ports though, so me having 8 wasteland effects ultimately won me the game, I feel.

[Alexeezay]

I think the Blue Lands' players should strongly consider Walking Ballista. Good against D&T and Miracles, easy rebuy with Academy Ruins and tutorable :) even fine against Elves and Infect I guess.

[Sparkii]

I think the Blue Lands' players should strongly consider Walking Ballista. Good against D&T and Miracles, easy rebuy with Academy Ruins and tutorable :) even fine against Elves and Infect I guess.

I was actually just talking to a buddy about that a day or so ago. It easily gets out of hand, castable through blood moon and can't be plow'ed. I'll be testing it for sure.

[non-inflammable]

I'll be testing it for sure.

This weekend i'm going to a Legacy event for "win a mox" tourney. i'll have one walking ballista in my SB...

[Lormador]

I am certainly looking forward to those results.

Also, who has the keys to the primer on the front page? We're a bit out of date in that area. I think we should delete the matchup section entirely, or abbreviate it. Nothing dates a primer so fast as its matchup section.

Second, I think this rules page about Marit Lage rules would be great to newcomers to the deck: http://manadeprived.com/dark-depths-rules-primer/

Third, actually that RG lands with Ruins splash that Sparkii faced in the 5th round of the Channel Fireball event has a really interesting Savannah and hatebear-based sideboard! It's totally worth checking out. It's also not hard to see the advantages that Sparkii's list had in that matchup. GQ vs. Port went his way, Surgical Extraction vs. Grafdigger's Cage also, and I'm guessing Scavenging Ooze did not make an appearance.

Still, the appearance of a Savannah has got me thinking in spite of myself. I dream casting Enlightened Tutors... you know how I am about tutors.

Actually, is this the deck with the most tutors? That would explain why I cannot put it down, nor even really bring myself to play a different deck. There's no feeling in Magic quite like resolving a tutor.

[non-inflammable]

Second, I think this rules page about Marit Lage rules would be great to newcomers to the deck: http://manadeprived.com/dark-depths-rules-primer/.

pretty cool...
i didn't know that any mana produced from dark depths is considered snow mana!

[Sparkii]

Lands list of the old before dark depths and punishing fire were actually BUGw, utilizing a tutor suite of 2-3 Enlightened tutors and 3 intuition. You played silver bullets main like smokestack, ensnaring bridge, and some of us including myself played Oblivion stone. Sideboard let you play stuff like Circle of Protection: Red, Sylvok Replica was the blood moon out at the time, etc.

Here was my list circa 2013 if I had to guess.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c175/tobyty/LANDS_zpsjbejz8cr.jpg

[Phelix]

or this, during the same 2012 (Sneak Show) era:

Artifacts
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Smokestack
1 Zuran Orb

Enchantments
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
3 Intuition

Sorceries
4 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest

Basic Lands
1 Forest

Lands
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Maze of Ith
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
2 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Legendary Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Cursed Totem
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gilded Drake
1 Raven's Crime


In 2015 - splashing white with no thalia!

[TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Bayou
1 [C14] Bojuka Bog
1 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [C15] Ghost Quarter
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [R] Savannah
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [M15] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [KTK] Windswept Heath
2 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
2 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
2 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [US] Smokestack
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [5E] Sylvan Library
4 [CNS] Exploration
1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [CMD] Punishing Fire
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll

[Lormador]

There certainly are a lot of cool lists of old. It's lovely to play a deck with such history.

I have played a few tests with the white splash and Enlightened Tutor. I'm not sure if it's worth additional effort. I was unimpressed with the effect, and the clunky mana didn't help.

[kravkenov]

So everyone, I'm back after few test with my "black is the new blue" Lands deck. It took time because in the while I got my second children (a girl !!) and Magic just fade into "the no time zone". But I can say from my testing that Black is definitly not the new blue. It was very hard to make the mana base stable for produce G early game, then BB for Grim Tutoring into Seismic Assault or Molten Vortex (RRR or R that need more R to be efficient).

Now I'm on a more traditional Blue Lands list but still want to try Molten Vortex and Gamble instead of Punishing Fire and Intuition. I'm not yet set on the number of mana-land, Ballista and co, but as for now it works great, and Walking Ballista do a very great job. It is Tolaria West and Academy Ruins compatible. A fantastic tool, while a bit slow some time, but I really like it. Maybe a single Ballista is enough, don't know yet.

Here is my current deck list :

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
2 Gamble
4 Molten Vortex
2 Walking Ballista
2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Maze of Ith
2 Tolaria West
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
3 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Glacial Chasm


I don't know when I will get a chance to play it in tournament conditions, but I will definitly make reports and update about this list. Any criticism welcome :)

[non-inflammable]

30 person mox tourney: I played a list similar to sparkii with minor changes: 2 ports and 3 GQ's for 61 cards.

First Round against Sneak/Show with Omniscience. Loss 1-2
Game 1: Karakas is in my opening hand so I figure I have a chance; omniscience says no.
Game 2: I lock him out with pieces, he scoops.
Game 3: He shows griselbrand, I show trinisphere and die after bricking on 3 draws.

Second Round against a solid Miracles player. Loss 1-2
Game 1: I have the nuts and my port taps down his white and I make Lage on turn 4.
Game 2: Back to Basics says "hi".
Game 3: Back to Basics says "hi".
He always had counter/top lock every game but it was fun to cast Engineered Explosives for "7".

Third Round against BUG control. Draw 1-1-1
Game 1: I kill deathrite shamans and make Lage.
Game 2: He has 3 force of wills for my 3 crop rotations.
Game 3: He has no land left in his deck and he can't cast much with the 2 lands he has in play; I can't kill him before time.

Fourth Round against Jund. Win 2-1
Game 1: Quick Lage after killing deathrites.
Game 2: I get beat down
Game 3: I got lucky and drew the dark depths naturally (turn 4 or 5).

Fifth Round "BYE" (sad)

Burn. Loss 1-2
Since I was driving multiple people home and had to wait, I played a walk-in (Burn) that couldn't make the tourney.
Game 1: I died fast after a crop rotation. My deck felt "asleep" the entire tourney and I never top-decked what I needed.
Game 2: I lasted a little longer but couldn't loop glacial chasm without an Exploration.
Game 3: It took forever (crucible was on the bottom of my deck) but I stabilized at 3 life and glacial chasm shielded myself until i could kill him.

I didn't do well but 5 of my regular playgroup made top 8. Top 4 looked like bomber-man, infect, storm, grixis delver or u/w standstill. Blue much?

Walking Ballista was only sided in against the Miracles player and I never saw it. The bomber-man guy (made top 4) was enjoying his walking ballista's...
I will keep ports in my list (maybe 2) but it was nice to get their basics with GQ.

TL/DR:
Just accept that your opponents will always have their "best" cards in their opening hand.
counter/top lock? sure... turn 1 deathrite? why not... multiple force of wills? all day long...


EDIT: the bomber-man player won the mox.
here's his post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27949-Deck-Imperial-Bomberman&p=993910&posted=1#post993910

[Sparkii]

Rough beats. Thanks for the report. I played in a little grinder yesterday with the same list, cutting the tremors sb for a Ballista. Went 3-1 losing my last round to sneak and show as suspected.

Ballista is pretty cool. I had it going with academy ruins against Merfolk and it was house. I didn't play any D&T or other creature decks to give it more testing. My matches:

Miracles 2-0
Merfolk 2-1
RG lands 2-0
Sneak - 0-2 :(

[Sibelius]

I think this probably goes here or its own thread once you all start playing it. This is an Intuition based lands deck after all.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com/the-brewery-bant-lands-aka-top-bants/

List for those too lazy to read the article

Spells (18)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Crop Rotation
3 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels

Enchantments (6)
3 Exploration
3 Counterbalance

Artifacts (7)
4 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands (26)
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Karakas
1 Riftstone Portal
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Thespian’s Stage
1 Dark Depths

Sideboard (15)
3 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karmic Justice
1 Surgical Extraction

Also I played the list that did well at CFB, after years playing straight RG it was tough to get my head around how much longer games can take! I think I shall try the RG list with the very light splash of 1 trop and 1 ruins. EE is so good right now but Intuition is still too expensive IMO.

I hope you all enjoy the article

Sib

[Ciubulu]

Hi,
I'm an rg combo lands player and I'm very intrigued by this rug version.
Looks like the plan is slower than rg but has a sort of inevitability and I guess it has a better mu against miracles, d&t and a sort of resistance to surgicals that are a huge problem for me lately :/ are my impressions correct? Is there something I should know or some not-so-obvious trick?

[kravkenov]

Hi,
I'm an rg combo lands player and I'm very intrigued by this rug version.
Looks like the plan is slower than rg but has a sort of inevitability and I guess it has a better mu against miracles, d&t and a sort of resistance to surgicals that are a huge problem for me lately :/ are my impressions correct? Is there something I should know or some not-so-obvious trick?

RUG Lands (in fact 43Lands) used to be a prison-like control deck. But with time, it becomes more just a slow hard-control deck and more recently a kind of soft-lock control deck with Stage into Depths combo finish. Today, RUG Lands is kind of shifting again to show a more "fast" soft-lock control side with the inclusion of Gamble and sometime the cut of Intuition.

The main difference between RGCL and RUG Lands is Tolaria West and Acadmy Ruins.
RGCL bet all its coins on Crop/Gamble to find and assemble a very fast Marit Lage, and dosent really have any plan B.
RUG Lands aim to controle the early game with tools like Explosives, Punishing Fire (and/or Molten Vortex), Walking Ballista (not yet set in stone). It's a good thing here to have Tolaria West to tutor Explosives and Co (Chalice, Ballista, etc.) and Academy Ruins to rebuild the opponent nightmare (Explosives loop), and then assemble Marit Lage with the support of Tolaria West (wich is a lot mor hard to stop because tutoring is an ability).

As for the graveyard side, honestly this is both Life from the Loam deck and thus they really dont like to play against Rest in Peace and friends. But it is true that main deck, RUG Lands can find answer to it (where RGCL dont), and it is also true than RUG Land has Tolaria West (Crop and sometimes Gamble) to tutor where RGCL has only Gamble (and Crop).

But as I saw here and there, more and more RGCL player start to include Academy Ruins, so maybe the futur will show an hybrid RG/U Lands deck with the aggressive line of play from RGCL and controle abilities from RUG Lands ;)

[Ciubulu]

@kravkenov thanks for your reply. My learning curve should be softer because of my experience with RGCL but any hint is highly appreciated :-)

[Sibelius]

But as I saw here and there, more and more RGCL player start to include Academy Ruins, so maybe the futur will show an hybrid RG/U Lands deck with the aggressive line of play from RGCL and controle abilities from RUG Lands ;)

As a long time RG player the access to EE recursion in a world of True-Name and Leovold is very attractive. It is also helpful as the deck gets weaker vs DNT with the move to Ghostquarters over Ports by many players. I will be testing the 1 Trop splash as soon as possible :)

Sib

[CptHaddock]

As a long time RG player the access to EE recursion in a world of True-Name and Leovold is very attractive. It is also helpful as the deck gets weaker vs DNT with the move to Ghostquarters over Ports by many players. I will be testing the 1 Trop splash as soon as possible :)

Sib

Fwiw i'd either go fully geared towards a RUG lands list or stick with R/G without any of the RUG elements. When you try to mesh together some of the elements that make both of the decks good you get this weird lands list that is just worse than RUG and R/G.

[Alexeezay]

@Sibelius: what's that build gonna look like then? How many Explosives? I thought of -1 Manabond -1 Vortex/Fire -1 Boseiju -1 Grove/Taiga, +2 Engineered Explosives +1 Academy Ruins +1 Tropical Island. But I really want to fit in Walking Ballista, probably in the SB then...

I don't think RG+splash would be worse necessarily because RUG with the Intuitions can be clunky sometimes and in this build you'd still have 4 Gamble to get you going quickly or tutor something early to helps vs combo.
I think Gamble > Intuition, BUT Tolaria West would be really useful.
That`s why I really like Sparkiis list going with a 2-2 Gamble Intuition split.
What are others' preferences?

[non-inflammable]

In RGcl, I would run 1 Academy Ruins without a Tropical Island; 4 Mox Diamonds and 4 Thespian's Stage were enough blue sources for me...

[Sparkii]

I'd definitely advocate for a tropical in any list playing ruins. Don't forget it gives you a fetchable third color for EE.

[Ciubulu]

There's a side in/side out guide somewhere? For reference I'm playing the @sparkii list (thanks, it's a great list) with a walking ballista replacing tremors. I know what to side in but it's hard to find what to cut from the deck [emoji28]

[Jaytron]

There's a side in/side out guide somewhere? For reference I'm playing the @sparkii list (thanks, it's a great list) with a walking ballista replacing tremors. I know what to side in but it's hard to find what to cut from the deck [emoji28]
This is literally how I feel every time I play the deck. LOL

[Sparkii]

There's a side in/side out guide somewhere? For reference I'm playing the @sparkii list (thanks, it's a great list) with a walking ballista replacing tremors. I know what to side in but it's hard to find what to cut from the deck [emoji28]

We're on the same exact decklist then, I cut the tremors to test out Ballista as well.

What matchups would you want siding for?

[Ciubulu]

We're on the same exact decklist then, I cut the tremors to test out Ballista as well.

What matchups would you want siding for?

Yes we are on the same list or, to be honest, I copied yours because it looks very well balanced and I really like the 2/2 split between gambles and intuitions [emoji4]
Here's my guess:
Miracles: in 3 cotv 3 trackers 3 grips 1 ballista
Out : 3 mazes 1 chasm 1 loam 2 gamble 1 karakas (if they are not on legendary miracles) ....maybe 2 crops if they are on ponder miracles and 3 if they are on legends

Delver variants: in 3 cotv 1 ballista
Out: 1 bog 1 karakas maybe gambles or crops or 1/1
Rdw: 3 cotv 3 grips out 1 karakas 1 bog 2 intu maybe 2 explosives or 1 explosive and 1 tabernacle
Shardless: in 3 grip 3 trackers out 1 chasm 1 karakas 1 loam 2 gambles maybe chasm
S&S / omnishow / Omni in: 3 cotv 2 spheres 1 trini 3 trackers 2 surgicals 3 grips out 2 gambles 2 crops 1 chasm 3 p.fires (?)explosives 1 tabernacle maybe 1 loam and 1 maze
Ant in 3 cotv 2 spheres 1 trini 3 trackers 2 surgicals out 1 chasm 1 karakas 3 pfires 3 ith 1 b.ring maybe 1 crucible 1 intu
D&t in 3 cotv 3 grips 1 ballista out 1 loam 1 chasm 1 loam and idk the rest
Lands mirror in 3 trackers 2 surgical out 1 chasm 1 tabernacle and 3 (?)
Reanimator in 3 cotv 2 spheres 1 trini 2 surgicals out 3 pfires maybe 2 intu 1 crop/gamble

Sideboard it's a little tricky for me because without an extensive testing I'm not sure whether intuition is good and when it's too slow. Another problem is to side out 1/2 copies of a card that I would likely take 3x with intuition...any help will be highly appreciated

[Sparkii]

I can elaborate later, but I generally cut intuitions almost every G2. Surgical is such a blowout against it, it's not worth the risk. They're usually safe to keep in against ANT or something since you can go for three taxing effects or something.

[Ciubulu]

I can elaborate later, but I generally cut intuitions almost every G2. Surgical is such a blowout against it, it's not worth the risk. They're usually safe to keep in against ANT or something since you can go for three taxing effects or something.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will treasure it. I will probably play the deck Sunday at my lgs monthly tournament so if you can go deeper I will be grateful ;-)

[CptHaddock]

Thanks for the suggestion, I will treasure it. I will probably play the deck Sunday at my lgs monthly tournament so if you can go deeper I will be grateful ;-)

I don't think there are any hard or fast rules for how to sideboard. I'd take out some number of intuitions against any deck that plays countermagic or RIP decks. Based on your previous post I think you have a handle on how you should approach different matchups. I wouldn't bring in the chalices against d&t. The only thing that I would be a little careful of is getting rid of too many lands in the main since you still need to power your diamonds and such. Remember that in a pinch some of the utility lands can help you cast an EE for 4 or 5 if needed.

[Lormador]

Yeah sideboarding is tough. I still sometimes get into situations where I take out a few too many lands, and get caught without enough fuel for all my land-dependent things.

If you're having trouble figuring out what to board, I think switching out a Krosan Grip and an Ancient Grudge helps a lot. Grudge is a good card to bring in against any deck with significant artifacts, like DnT, or any deck that's likely to pack Needles (which I guess can be pretty much any of them).

One external factor making sideboarding easier these days is the preponderance of specifically Surgical Extraction as the graveyard hate card of choice. Adding a few minor touches to play around that, like maybe a Tranquil Thicket in the main or a Crucible of Worlds standing in as Loam #5, gives a powerful layer on top of the "good for what ails you" Tireless Tracker.

[Sockosensei]

One external factor making sideboarding easier these days is the preponderance of specifically Surgical Extraction as the graveyard hate card of choice. Adding a few minor touches to play around that, like maybe a Tranquil Thicket in the main or a Crucible of Worlds standing in as Loam #5, gives a powerful layer on top of the "good for what ails you" Tireless Tracker.
Or a maindeck Horizon Canopy as a Crop Rotation target if you aren't on the Chalice@1 plan, giving you 5 extra potential answers to Surgical Extraction on Loam.


Re: Tolaria West
For every game where Tolaria West provides late-game inevitability, I have one or two where I'd be better served having nearly anything else instead—a draw effect (Thicket/Canopy), an additional accelerant, an EE, a Gamble, or another utility land. It also adds another card that I'd prefer not to have in most opening hands.
In what percentage of your games are you able to take advantage of Tolaria West's ability vs having it simply be a CIPT blue source?

[Lormador]

Not enough man, I gave up on Tolaria West for just the reasons you mentioned. I'd rather just have another Gamble. The mana cost on T-West is just too taxing.

I've been going back and forth on Horizon Canopy vs. Tranquil Thicket. This is what I've got so far. In fact, I think I'll just start drawing up these +/- charts and asking you guys to add to them. I'm sure you more experienced Lands players have a bunch of tricks that I am not hip to yet.

Horizon Canopy
- damn you Modern prices!
- costs a land drop if you want a card
- enemy can see it coming if Canopy is on the field
- costs life to get mana from it
+ mana available immediately, no ETB tapped
+ enables Crop Rotation to protect Loam from Surgical and similar effects
+ enabled by Crucible of Worlds
+/- more expensive in terms of raw mana to do this (two lands vs. one), but no color requirement

Tranquil Thicket
+ way cheaper money-wise, if you care about such things
+ doesn't require a land drop to get an extra card
+ enemy must play into it unless you tap out or they see your hand; can be bluffed
- ETB tapped
- must have it in hand at the time to save Loam from Surgical
+/- only costs 1 mana to use, but it has to be a green mana

...I personally am on 1 Tranquil Thicket because I haven't yet been able to find an English Horizon Canopy (in Beijing)! Canopy is better than Thicket in my deck because I'm on 4 Crop Rotation 1 Crucible of Worlds MD, and only 2 Chalice of the Void in the board.

[kravkenov]

Not enough man, I gave up on Tolaria West for just the reasons you mentioned. I'd rather just have another Gamble. The mana cost on T-West is just too taxing.

I've been going back and forth on Horizon Canopy vs. Tranquil Thicket. This is what I've got so far. In fact, I think I'll just start drawing up these +/- charts and asking you guys to add to them. I'm sure you more experienced Lands players have a bunch of tricks that I am not hip to yet.

Horizon Canopy
- damn you Modern prices!
- costs a land drop if you want a card
- enemy can see it coming if Canopy is on the field
- costs life to get mana from it
+ mana available immediately, no ETB tapped
+ enables Crop Rotation to protect Loam from Surgical and similar effects
+ enabled by Crucible of Worlds
+/- more expensive in terms of raw mana to do this (two lands vs. one), but no color requirement

Tranquil Thicket
+ way cheaper money-wise, if you care about such things
+ doesn't require a land drop to get an extra card
+ enemy must play into it unless you tap out or they see your hand; can be bluffed
- ETB tapped
- must have it in hand at the time to save Loam from Surgical
+/- only costs 1 mana to use, but it has to be a green mana

...I personally am on 1 Tranquil Thicket because I haven't yet been able to find an English Horizon Canopy (in Beijing)! Canopy is better than Thicket in my deck because I'm on 4 Crop Rotation 1 Crucible of Worlds MD, and only 2 Chalice of the Void in the board.

I think the main concern about Horizon Canopy vs Tranquil Thicket is to play with or without Intuition.
If Intuition is in main deck, then Tranquil Thicket is superior as a draw engine. But if the main goal is to protect Loam against Surgical effect, being able to draw at instant speed is mandatory, and you almost need to Intuition into 3 Thicket and spend 2UG. If you don't play Intuition, then Horizon Canopy is superior but limited to Crop into Canopy and spend 1G.

[Ciubulu]

Just top8ed my lgs monthly legacy with sparkii list. Won vs white eldrazi, burn, bug delver (with stifle and mandrills), lost vs ur delver because of a very lucky top deck of pop but would have won anyway and against miracles because I have zero experience with this build against them. Probably wrong sideboard either.

[Alexeezay]

I also topped at a nearby legacy tournament with Sparkii's list. Felt great, Academy Ruins is a MVP. Intuition felt clunky and kind of unnecessary, too fair and durdly for an unfair meta IMO. I might switch to 4 Gamble.
Played Thorn instead of Trinisphere, having 5 Sphere effects and 2 Chalice felt great in the ANT matchup and I played against 2 Food Chain players where Sphere was also pretty nice (Thorn not so much though).
Surgical Extractions everywhere currently as expected, but this rug build with Ballista Crucible etc. has much more game against Extraction than straight RG Combo Lands.

[kravkenov]

Intuition felt clunky and kind of unnecessary, too fair and durdly for an unfair meta IMO. I might switch to 4 Gamble. [...] but this rug build with Ballista Crucible etc. has much more game against Extraction than straight RG Combo Lands.

This is why I'm on a Intuition-less list with 2 Ballista main. It is awesome (in my playgroup at least).

[Sibelius]

@Sibelius: what's that build gonna look like then? How many Explosives? I thought of -1 Manabond -1 Vortex/Fire -1 Boseiju -1 Grove/Taiga, +2 Engineered Explosives +1 Academy Ruins +1 Tropical Island. But I really want to fit in Walking Ballista, probably in the SB then...

I don't think RG+splash would be worse necessarily because RUG with the Intuitions can be clunky sometimes and in this build you'd still have 4 Gamble to get you going quickly or tutor something early to helps vs combo.
I think Gamble > Intuition, BUT Tolaria West would be really useful.
That`s why I really like Sparkiis list going with a 2-2 Gamble Intuition split.
What are others' preferences?

I was going to try this list from the same CFB event Sparki Top4'd. But sort the sideboard out and test differing MD choices, GQ vs Port, Karakas, Bog, Portal, Boseiju etc etc etc.
http://www.channelfireball.com/legacy-deck-lists/
Basically cut the Chasm, ManaBond, 1 Depths, and a Maze for 2 EE, Trop and Ruins. Seems solid so far.

Sib

[solnox]

Hi guys, new to the deck and just picked it up from Turbo Depths after watching Sparkii crush every event with it.

Played at a win a box with his carbon 76 and went 4-0 beating Aluren, Dark Lands, Sparkii on Eldrazi (lol) and MUD paradox engine?

Deck was a blast and this might make me actually shell out for the tabby.

[Lormador]

Take the plunge, you know you want to own the classiest card in all of Legacy.

I'm sad to hear folks down on Intuition, but it might be right. I have recently had the joy of resolving one like a boss via Boseiju, G1 vs. Miracles. Took that down in short order.

Then a most amazing G2. He extracted Loam, Depths, Punishing Fire, and Tireless Tracker using 2 Surgicals and 2 Snapcasters. He lands a Jace and starts ticking up. He ultimates the Jace.

My board is a lot of lands, including Tabernacle, a couple of Mazes, loads of mana, a few Ports, and Academy Ruins. Engineered Explosives is in my hand, the only card, and I put it on top after the ultimate. In the graveyard is my Crucible of Worlds and a Ghost Quarter.

Eventually I win by milling him out.

[filln]

My board is a lot of lands, including Tabernacle, a couple of Mazes, loads of mana, a few Ports, and Academy Ruins. Engineered Explosives is in my hand, the only card, and I put it on top after the ultimate. In the graveyard is my Crucible of Worlds and a Ghost Quarter.

Eventually I win by milling him out.

I think I just teared up a little bit. :cry:

[Crimhead]

Yeah, that's absolutely gorgeous Lormador! Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. :D

[Lormador]

It was really fun, and the Miracles player really did think I was dead: having exiled every win condition in my deck (which he knew after the first extraction) he raised one eyebrow after he announced the Jace ultimate and was met with something other than a concession.

I still had to survive a minor Mentor offense, but the Mazes and Tabernacle saved me. I'd seen Mentors in his deck G1 and think 1-2 Mazes isn't a bad investment against that version, and for the very reason that appeared in this game: they can hold off the painful, big Mentor hits while EE slowly does its work. I might be wrong about that.

While I did win this particular match in an especially awesome way, I do still struggle somewhat with Miracles. My version of the deck trims extra copies of EE and Punishing Fire for extra tutors, the Crucible, and a Manabond... so I'm softer to Counterbalance than I otherwise would be with, say, Sparkii's list. I use Ports and play a MD Boseiju to help compensate, and my sideboard doesn't bring me any extra special help, just the usual 3 Trackers, 2 K-grips, 2 Chalice.

I am looking for a card to bring a little extra oomph in this matchup, and actually right now I'm trying something that hasn't been seen in the deck for a very long time: a Smokestack. It's either that, a Boil, or a Nissa.

[Sparkii]

I had a similar game to that a long time ago before trackers. Was against Deathblade with a super greedy manabase, so no wastelands. I T1 mox diamond pitching depths + land and go to Loam and it gets extracted. He then surgicals wasteland once I go for the land strip plan, then snap Surgical ghost quarter and then punishing fire. I eventually EE lock him out, always keeping one EE in play at 3 for TNN and loop another in the yard to play around another possible Surgical since it can't exile the one already in play. He gets down to 8 or 9 cards in library, fetches and while looking through says he has no way to win and scoops.

I don't think miracles is that bad, really, and I'm not even playing boseiju. The legend versions are a bigger pain in the ass than the mentor versions.

[N01INK]

Take the plunge, you know you want to own the classiest card in all of Legacy.

I'm sad to hear folks down on Intuition, but it might be right. I have recently had the joy of resolving one like a boss via Boseiju, G1 vs. Miracles. Took that down in short order.

Then a most amazing G2. He extracted Loam, Depths, Punishing Fire, and Tireless Tracker using 2 Surgicals and 2 Snapcasters. He lands a Jace and starts ticking up. He ultimates the Jace.

My board is a lot of lands, including Tabernacle, a couple of Mazes, loads of mana, a few Ports, and Academy Ruins. Engineered Explosives is in my hand, the only card, and I put it on top after the ultimate. In the graveyard is my Crucible of Worlds and a Ghost Quarter.

Eventually I win by milling him out.


Won a deathblade in GP chiba in g2 after he sided in telemin performance against me (and he casted it t5).

had no crucible of worlds in play but had a academy ruins.

thanks to the mill he got everything into the yard (including 2 EE, chalice from the SB, mox diamonds etc.)

ended the game with him having 0 permanent in play =)

[Sparkii]

Tl;dr academy ruins is busted :)

[Lormador]

He cast Telemin Performance into an open Academy Ruins without being able to wipe your graveyard? Tsk tsk... that's just asking for a nasty surprise. Ruins is the #1 reason to play blue, in my opinion. It adds so much inevitability to the "prison" side of the deck, especially in this world we live in right now where few people want to wait until they have 1W open on a main phase to deal with graveyard problems. I suppose we have BR Reanimator to thank for that, and that really sad feeling you get staring down at an active Griselbrand with 1 land on the table and a RIP in hand.

I think my next +/- chart will be for Rishadan Port and Ghost Quarter, and I'll certainly need some help with the Ghost Quarter side. I don't want the chart to reflect my personal bias in favor of Port.

Also, does anyone have any insight into why the only configurations that seem to be successful (correct me if I'm wrong) are 4 GQ and 4 Port 1 GQ? What about the other combinations?

[kravkenov]

Ruins is the #1 reason to play blue, in my opinion. It adds so much inevitability to the "prison" side of the deck.

Ho yes, Ruins is so strong :)


Does anyone have any insight into why the only configurations that seem to be successful (correct me if I'm wrong) are 4 GQ and 4 Port 1 GQ? What about the other combinations?

I'm currently playing 4 Wasteland, 4 Ghost Quarter and 2 Port, and it works well (But I'm not yet 100% sur about that configuration).

[N01INK]

He cast Telemin Performance into an open Academy Ruins without being able to wipe your graveyard? Tsk tsk... that's just asking for a nasty surprise. Ruins is the #1 reason to play blue, in my opinion. It adds so much inevitability to the "prison" side of the deck, especially in this world we live in right now where few people want to wait until they have 1W open on a main phase to deal with graveyard problems. I suppose we have BR Reanimator to thank for that, and that really sad feeling you get staring down at an active Griselbrand with 1 land on the table and a RIP in hand.

I think my next +/- chart will be for Rishadan Port and Ghost Quarter, and I'll certainly need some help with the Ghost Quarter side. I don't want the chart to reflect my personal bias in favor of Port.

Also, does anyone have any insight into why the only configurations that seem to be successful (correct me if I'm wrong) are 4 GQ and 4 Port 1 GQ? What about the other combinations?

He was playing on the outs of wasteland.

But i had my whole library in the yard so recurring thespian's stage via crucible makes it inevitable after a couple turns.

He did tops wasteland and targeted academy ruins, but thespian stage is in play. just copy in on the stack and legend rule the original one away. =)

Im playing an eccentric list with 67 MB cards. i do have 4 Port 2 GQ in the MB. nt sure how it will go for yours.

[Lormador]

I'm starting to come back around on Tolaria West, and I'm getting to what must be pretty near the edge of how far one can take the toolbox nature of the deck. I have now cut even the 2nd Dark Depths, following the "value of 1st copy > value of 2nd copy" theory one step further.

I think Tolaria might have an interaction with Boseiju and Intuition that is strong enough to decisively deliver the Miracle matchup. Perhaps this will allow the cut of Molten Vortex entirely, and I can simply switch the Taiga/Tropical Island count to suit the new color emphasis.

[Agrippa91]

He was playing on the outs of wasteland.

But i had my whole library in the yard so recurring thespian's stage via crucible makes it inevitable after a couple turns.

He did tops wasteland and targeted academy ruins, but thespian stage is in play. just copy in on the stack and legend rule the original one away. =)

Im playing an eccentric list with 67 MB cards. i do have 4 Port 2 GQ in the MB. nt sure how it will go for yours.

Wouldn't something like 4 ports and 2 gq make more sense? To me it seems that multiple Ghost Quarters don't really do anything while multiple Rishadan Ports certainly do. They're also better against your bad matchups, right (D&T and combo that is).
Not a lands player myself, just interested. As a stifle delver player though I can say that Rishadan Port annoys me more since I can't just stifle the activation and negate the land drop.


I'm starting to come back around on Tolaria West, and I'm getting to what must be pretty near the edge of how far one can take the toolbox nature of the deck. I have now cut even the 2nd Dark Depths, following the "value of 1st copy > value of 2nd copy" theory one step further.

I think Tolaria might have an interaction with Boseiju and Intuition that is strong enough to decisively deliver the Miracle matchup. Perhaps this will allow the cut of Molten Vortex entirely, and I can simply switch the Taiga/Tropical Island count to suit the new color emphasis.

Why do you play Molten Vortex in RUG lands? I thought P-Fire and EE with Barbarian Ring would be better since they play nicely with your deck synergies.

[kravkenov]

So I just played a small test-night with my "Ballista-Vortex" RUG Lands, played against Miracles, Nic Fit, Food Chain and Delvers decks.
Side note about Food Chain : They combo and classic plan are very strong. One of the main problem is Shaman, and the other one is Leovold. It's an absolute pain !

My list (2 Ballista, 4 Molten Vortex, 4 GQ and 2 Port, no Intuition, but 2 Gamble and 2 Tolaria) was solid, but Ballista looks like a bit slow, maybe one copy in the SB is enough. I still will play with 2 Ballista main before making any change with it, to see how it works against Miracles, D&T and Delver deck a bit more deeper than just a night-test in my play-group.

About the other "remarkable" change from classic RUG : I feel 4 Ghost Quarter a bit too much. Lot of decks play several basics, and I think GQ works better later in the game, when the "grindy-game" start. Plus I miss the Port. From my opinion, they do just more mana-denial than GQ does.
Molten Vortex was very very strong, I won several times by just activate it targeting my opponent. It's much more effective than Punishing Fire, but at the cost of not being able to comeback from the yard when dredged away, and lot more Life from the Loam dependent. In fact the games where my Loams where extracted, Molten Vortex become somewhat useless. I should be much more attentive by taking the time to protect it with a Crop into Canopy or something like that before casting it just to Loam quickly.

Here is the list I played:
2 Walking Ballista
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
2 Gamble
4 Molten Vortex
2 Engineered Explosives

2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Tolaria West
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
3 Taiga
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Karakas
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tireless Tracker

[Lormador]

@Agrippa

Molten Vortex has a couple of virtues. The card got its start in the deck when it was observed that it trumps two worrisome situations: 1) there was widespread fear that a Sanctum Prelate on 2 would just destroy the deck, and 2) Counterbalance floating a 2 is also very bad news. In those cases, it's great to have an enchantment like Molten Vortex. It's more commonly seen in RG decks, but it gets some play here as well (as seen in the above poster's list).

re: Port vs. GQ and the effect of various numbers of GQs

I'm not 100% certain about all the configurations of GQs, but the ones I've tested the most are 1 GQ (with 3-4 Port) and 4 GQ 0 Port. There are two reasons to run 4 GQs, I think, that you get when you run the set vs. just the one. First, there are a lot of decks that run 1-3 basics: only Burn, DnT, and Miracles play more than this. 4 GQ turns into 4 Strip Mine really fast against them, you draw 2 and resolve a Loam and suddenly they can't keep a land on the table. With 1 GQ, once you finally draw it, you've got to whittle those basics down over the course of several turns. It takes forever to turn it into a Strip Mine, and maybe you could have been doing something else that wins faster (or might even lose if this is the wrong choice). Second, since there are plenty of MUs where GQ is a Strip Mine from the very start, packing 4 of them is brutal.

This is the list I'm on right now. I'm attempting to carry the "Tutors and Singletons" theory to the ultimate extreme.

Maindeck
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
1 Punishing Fire
2 Intuition
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

// 34 Land
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Rishadan Port
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tolaria West

Sideboard
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Smokestack
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Glacial Chasm

[Sparkii]

To elaborate on why you only see 4 GQ or 4 ports 1 GQ is because the original deck setup dating years back was 4 port 1 GQ since often you were on the grind plan without Marit lage. On the switch to GQ, most players completely dropped ports and since they're much cheaper on modo as well you see the zero port lists.

[Crimhead]

does anyone have any insight into why the only configurations that seem to be successful (correct me if I'm wrong) are 4 GQ and 4 Port 1 GQ? What about the other combinations?

Regarding GQ and Port, I think it has a lot to do with deck space/slots.

If you are running 4x Port, adding a singleton GQ can do a lot of work. One GQ is all you technically need to strip out the opponents, so just running one adds solid utility to our toolbox.

Once you are resolved to run 4x GQ, you don't really get the same utility out of a singleton Port. In order for Port to have a significant impact you need to draw it early and/or in multiples. Running enough Ports to be useful in a deck with 3 or 4 GQs is just to many slots devoted to mana denial. We have other needs that must be met too.

I was running 3x GQ & 2x Port for a while. I found even two Ports a bit ineffective, and was wanting a 4th GQ. So I've gone to the more common 4/0 split.

[kravkenov]

I think Crimhead is just right about Port. It's a play 4 (maybe 3) or play 0.
From my testing and experience with the deck, 1 or 2 Ghost Quarter combined with 4 Port add a lot to the mana denial plan, especially against Tempo (Delver) and (black) Combo decks because they usually dont run any basics lands. It is also helpful against RG Lands (but also RUG Lands ;.) where the victory usually go to the first player who can establish a recurring mana denial play.

Now I would like to get some inputs with Molten Vortex and Punishing Fire. Since I moved from Punishing/Groove to Molten Vortex (like one year ego), things didn't have changed that much. Punishing Fire/Groove is still a full combo that can return from the graveyard. But it took something like 6 to 7 slots and is a very slow alternative kill while being a very strong way to keep control on the field. Plus, it synergies awesomely with the deck.

But now I want to share my last testing results with Molten Vortex. If we strictly look at the capacity, Molten Vortex is (imo) superior to Punishing/Groove. It deal more damage per mana spend and it's more fast. But the main concerne about Molten Vortex is it cannot return from graveyard. In a Loam deck, it's a very important thing. The other concern is the Life from the Loam dependance. Punishing/Groove works absolutely fine without Loam, where Vortex needs Loam to be fully effective.

From this edge, Loam become even more vital if we play Vortex instead of Punishing/Groove. Without Loam, the deck become somewhat like a empty jar. In my last post, I shared my current RUG Lands decklist. I was playing 2 Ballista main to test it against my playgroup meta. It is slow, too slow to be played in main deck. So I shaved them to the sideboard and now I play a couple of Tranquil Thicket instead. With Horizon Canopy, these two Tickets push the deck to 3 lands cards dedicated to draw, with one "Crop Rotation Ready" lands. In this configuration, Loam is much more protected from extraction than before, and it also help to sculpt hand when needed.

I still will test this for the next coming weeks, and maybe also in a great tournament here in Geneva at the end of April (but still dont know if I will have the time). If you have other tips/point of view to share about Punishing/Groove vs Molten Vortex, please do ! ;.)

[Dice_Box]

DnT has been passing me off lately, so I ran RUG this week. I quite liked it. I like the options the Artifacts offer but I dislike the speed reduction.

Anyone still running Orb? I felt like it would not have been terrible twice.

[kravkenov]

Anyone still running Orb? I felt like it would not have been terrible twice.

I don't run Zuran Orb anymore because it's usually played as a sideboard card (for me at least) and there is a lot of Graveyard hate these days. So sacrifice our own Lands presence and getting them voided isn't that fun. Instead I play sometime Glacial Chasm, even without a "loop" on the board. It just save your HP one time when needed.

For the long game where a Zuran Orb were good, I think now with Tireless Tracker we have a better engine. It's not the same tool but it does provide a good advantage and the deck is absolutely ok to run in long game without Zuran Orb.

[Lormador]

Zuran Orb looks to me like a secondary Glacial Chasm, but without the same level of utility. I've been making a sideboard chart for various cards, and Zorb is at least on it. I'm valuing it thus:

Stellar: UR Delver / Burn (Price of Progress decks)
Marginal: other Delver, other aggro (DnT, Eldrazi)
not coming in against combo
not coming in against control

...so I see it as a pretty narrow card. Its value against PoP decks is inversely proportional to the number of Dark Depths one plays. If you can just jam the combo and kill them before PoP can kill you, there's less need for a card that will extend the game almost indefinitely (if the engine is running).

The problem for my deck is that, since Plan A is to jam the combo quickly and race UR Delver or Burn, all 4 Crop Rotation and 4 Gamble are staying in. The cards that deal with creatures, EE/Maze/Fire, are also staying in. Only sluggish/risky stuff like Intuition and Manabond are coming out. That's three cards, and Tireless Tracker, Sphere of Resistance, and Chalice of the Void are all fine to bring in. Zuran Orb would be overboarding for the matchup unless I were completely planning to change gears and attempt to grind them out instead of comboing.

...

The utility that Glacial Charm offers, besides being fetchable with Crop Rotation, is that it's rather good vs. Dredge. A short while ago I got a Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, and Bojuka Bog alongside an Exploration and Loam mana. Just kept looping Chasm, saccing the Bog to loop that as well.

[ph88]

Hi guys. I got 8th in a medium-sized event yesterday, getting knocked-out by infect in the quarterfinals. That match is here:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131163555?t=6h46m43s

There was an interesting decision I had to make in my last turn on game 2, here:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131163555?t=7h14m15s

The game state is as follows: I have 2 maze, a stage, and a diamond in play, and a mana producing land, a depths, and a tabernacle in hand. My opponent has an inkmoth nexus, a hierarch, a forest, and a trop in play. He has two cards in hand, has just kept off of a ponder, and just surgical'd my one-of ghost quarter. I'm at 0 poison. I know that there are only 2 vines of vastwood in his deck.

I can A) play tabernacle, which will give his heirarch an upkeep cost of 1 and delay making marit lage for a turn, or B) jam the mana producing land, giving myself the ability to make marit lage next turn (which obviously blocks inkmoth). Not wanting to give my opponent one more turn (and card) than was necessary, I went with option B, thinking that it was unlikely he'd be able to kill me on the following turn with only two cards in hand. It turns out option A was the right line, though, as he had the cards he needed and just enough colored mana to kill me on the following turn. Given the information I had, what would you have done?

I'm also curious about boarding strategies against infect. I brought in 2 chalices, 4 sphere of resistance, 2 bob, and 2 k-grip. I feel pretty good about all those choices except the spheres. Are the spheres worth it on the play? How about on the draw?

FYI, my matches were:

R1: Cephalid Breakfast (wtf?) 0-2
R2: Miracles 1-1-1
R3: Dragon Stompy 2-0
R4: Sneak Show 2-0
R5: Burn 2-1
R6: Paired down, opponent concedes
Quarterfinals: Infect 1-2

[N01INK]

Hi guys. I got 8th in a medium-sized event yesterday, getting knocked-out by infect in the quarterfinals. That match is here:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131163555?t=6h46m43s

There was an interesting decision I had to make in my last turn on game 2, here:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/131163555?t=7h14m15s

The game state is as follows: I have 2 maze, a stage, and a diamond in play, and a mana producing land, a depths, and a tabernacle in hand. My opponent has an inkmoth nexus, a hierarch, a forest, and a trop in play. He has two cards in hand, has just kept off of a ponder, and just surgical'd my one-of ghost quarter. I'm at 0 poison. I know that there are only 2 vines of vastwood in his deck.

I can A) play tabernacle, which will give his heirarch an upkeep cost of 1 and delay making marit lage for a turn, or B) jam the mana producing land, giving myself the ability to make marit lage next turn (which obviously blocks inkmoth). Not wanting to give my opponent one more turn (and card) than was necessary, I went with option B, thinking that it was unlikely he'd be able to kill me on the following turn with only two cards in hand. It turns out option A was the right line, though, as he had the cards he needed and just enough colored mana to kill me on the following turn. Given the information I had, what would you have done?

I'm also curious about boarding strategies against infect. I brought in 2 chalices, 4 sphere of resistance, 2 bob, and 2 k-grip. I feel pretty good about all those choices except the spheres. Are the spheres worth it on the play? How about on the draw?

FYI, my matches were:

R1: Cephalid Breakfast (wtf?) 0-2
R2: Miracles 1-1-1
R3: Dragon Stompy 2-0
R4: Sneak Show 2-0
R5: Burn 2-1
R6: Paired down, opponent concedes
Quarterfinals: Infect 1-2

there is a 1-turn window for him to go off. you're just betting against it and odds are to your favor. its just good topdecks and his tight plays that killed u.

playing tabernacle wont save u permanently. he would've gave u 2 poison per turn and it will take u an extra turn off marit lage, he would had enough time to walk through it.

[Sparkii]

Lost in the finals of a GPT for vegas yesterday playing the same 76 to elves and some awful draws. My matchups were also pretty atrocious so I got kind of lucky during the day.

Mine was...
R1: UB reanimator - 2-0
R2: BUG Leovold - (awful draws, felt like a good MU) 1-2
R3: Elves - 2-0
R4: BR Reanimator - 2-0
R5: Omni - 2-1

Quarters: Grixis Delver 2-0
Semis: Elves 2-0
Finals: Elves 0-2

[Alexeezay]

1. Ok so after more thoughts/testing, Barbarian Ring has been almost useless and I will cut it for Tranquil Thicket or Tolaria West #2. Thoughts?
With Thicket alongside Canopy, protection from Surgical looks even better and I even saw a recent list with 2 Thicket 1 Canopy. 2nd Tolaria West would make it easier to a) tutor a Chalice postboard b) set up Ruins/EE.

2. Nissa, Vital Force is pretty good...but Tireless Tracker as sideboard backup is kind of set in stone and you can even board him in combo matchups for pressure. So there is probably no room for her.
Can we justify to cut Krosan Grip #4 for Nissa?

3. Vs Miracles, postboard everything costs 3: Krosan Grip, Tireless Tracker, Crucible of Worlds, Intuition. They prey on this mainly because of KGrip and float a 3 with Counterbalance.
-> this is where I like some other options like Nissa, Vital Force, Primeval Titan or even Thought-Knot Seer. Of course switchung up the numbers/alt. wincons has some other advantages like surprise factor, flexibility in Primeval Titan etc.
What are your thoughts on this? Tireless Tracker just seems most solid because it's cheaper and usable in almost any matchup.

4. going back to 2., full 4 Krosan Grip may be a waste nowadays. People moved away from Rest In Peace/Leyline of the Void to a LOT of Surgical Extraction. The main hate targeted against us currently is Surgical Extraction, Pithing Needle, Faerie Macabre, Diabolic Edict since they are also used against Reanimator.

[Lormador]

I personally think Barbarian Ring is good, but it is a fairly focused card: at its best against DnT, good against Delver, and pretty marginal elsewhere. Punishing Fire would be better across the board were it not for Sanctum Prelate, I think.

I've found Nissa, Vital Force to be great against BUG decks and Miracles, but I don't think there's really room for her when Tireless Tracker does such a good job drawing cards, ignoring Surgicals, and defeating Blood Moons. There are so many interlocking pieces to the question, though, from the Miracles' penetration of your meta, to the rest of the deck's configuration of EE/Port, to whether you run Boseiju, etc. I personally am trying a MD Boseiju and 2 Boil in the sideboard, and I'm down to one Tropical Island. Boseiju is not only great with Boil and Loam, I've found, but with Intuition.

You've noted that one of the main hate cards nowadays is Pithing Needle... and if you take out Barbarian Ring, the DnT matchup will get a bit worse. You might look into shoring it up somewhat with an Ancient Grudge, which can go into a Krosan Grip slot. I'm down to two Grips and a Grudge in my board.

[Sparkii]

1. Ok so after more thoughts/testing, Barbarian Ring has been almost useless and I will cut it for Tranquil Thicket or Tolaria West #2. Thoughts?
With Thicket alongside Canopy, protection from Surgical looks even better and I even saw a recent list with 2 Thicket 1 Canopy. 2nd Tolaria West would make it easier to a) tutor a Chalice postboard b) set up Ruins/EE.

2. Nissa, Vital Force is pretty good...but Tireless Tracker as sideboard backup is kind of set in stone and you can even board him in combo matchups for pressure. So there is probably no room for her.
Can we justify to cut Krosan Grip #4 for Nissa?

3. Vs Miracles, postboard everything costs 3: Krosan Grip, Tireless Tracker, Crucible of Worlds, Intuition. They prey on this mainly because of KGrip and float a 3 with Counterbalance.
-> this is where I like some other options like Nissa, Vital Force, Primeval Titan or even Thought-Knot Seer. Of course switchung up the numbers/alt. wincons has some other advantages like surprise factor, flexibility in Primeval Titan etc.
What are your thoughts on this? Tireless Tracker just seems most solid because it's cheaper and usable in almost any matchup.

4. going back to 2., full 4 Krosan Grip may be a waste nowadays. People moved away from Rest In Peace/Leyline of the Void to a LOT of Surgical Extraction. The main hate targeted against us currently is Surgical Extraction, Pithing Needle, Faerie Macabre, Diabolic Edict since they are also used against Reanimator.

1.I'm really liking Ring right now. It's been really great for me.

2. Nissa is pretty cool, and definitely has her merits. You could try and slot one into a flex slot in the SB for sure. I've already been on 3 grips for a while and don't mind.

3. You should be cutting intuitions almost every matchup postboard as they're awful against yard hate like surgical. The miracles players I play against usually don't float 3's, actually, so your YMMV. EE should be able to kill any counterbalances anyways.

4. Again, I'm on 3 grip nowadays and haven't missed the 4th.

[kravkenov]

1. Ok so after more thoughts/testing, Barbarian Ring has been almost useless and I will cut it for Tranquil Thicket or Tolaria West #2. Thoughts?
With Thicket alongside Canopy, protection from Surgical looks even better and I even saw a recent list with 2 Thicket 1 Canopy. 2nd Tolaria West would make it easier to a) tutor a Chalice postboard b) set up Ruins/EE.

2. Nissa, Vital Force is pretty good...but Tireless Tracker as sideboard backup is kind of set in stone and you can even board him in combo matchups for pressure. So there is probably no room for her.
Can we justify to cut Krosan Grip #4 for Nissa?

3. Vs Miracles, postboard everything costs 3: Krosan Grip, Tireless Tracker, Crucible of Worlds, Intuition. They prey on this mainly because of KGrip and float a 3 with Counterbalance.
-> this is where I like some other options like Nissa, Vital Force, Primeval Titan or even Thought-Knot Seer. Of course switchung up the numbers/alt. wincons has some other advantages like surprise factor, flexibility in Primeval Titan etc.
What are your thoughts on this? Tireless Tracker just seems most solid because it's cheaper and usable in almost any matchup.

4. going back to 2., full 4 Krosan Grip may be a waste nowadays. People moved away from Rest In Peace/Leyline of the Void to a LOT of Surgical Extraction. The main hate targeted against us currently is Surgical Extraction, Pithing Needle, Faerie Macabre, Diabolic Edict since they are also used against Reanimator.

1. Barbarian Ring is an easier out to Tutor for when facing a color protection or a chalice @2. It does do a great job for me, not in every MUs, but enough to still deserve a slot.

2. Never tested Nissa, but I'm on 3 Grip configuration and never fell it clunky or missed the Grip #4. With Explosives backup, there is enough way to deal with problematics Enchantment or Artifacts.

3. I honestly don't see Miracle player floating 3CMC for ever on the top of they library. They would much préfère to do so on 2 because of Loam and Punishing. But even if they stay focused on 3CMC, Sunburst is very flexible. (And you should side-out Intuition anyway against Miracle as they play way too much counter and Extraction to let it resolve properly).

4. As said before by Sparkii, I'm also on a 3 Grip sideboard configuration. So don't mind too much about that.

[Sparkii]

Played another GPT yesterday. Lost in the semi finals in the top 4. Meta was insanely combo heavy so I suited up with the following sb:

3 Surgical
2 revoker
3 chalice of the void
2 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
3 Krosan Grip
1 walking Ballista

And slotting an ancient tomb in the main over an intuition.


Rounds were:

R1 turbo depths: 0-2
R2 ANT 2-0
R3 12 post 2-1
R4 Infect 2-0
R5 ID

Quarters - miracles 2-1 (hour and a half match lol)
Semis - Rb goblins

I keep losing positive matchups to awful draws, haha.

I missed playing revokers, they won me two games.

[kravkenov]

Played another GPT yesterday. Lost in the semi finals in the top 4. Meta was insanely combo heavy so I suited up with the following sb:

3 Surgical
2 revoker
3 chalice of the void
2 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
3 Krosan Grip
1 walking Ballista

And slotting an ancient tomb in the main over an intuition.


[...]

How did Ballista perform, were you happy with this new tools ? I tested it a bit (really, a bit, clearly not enough matchs) and found it a bit slow.
Also, does Ancient Tomb deserve a slot to rise the odds of Turn 1 Chalice ?

[Sparkii]

How did Ballista perform, were you happy with this new tools ? I tested it a bit (really, a bit, clearly not enough matchs) and found it a bit slow.
Also, does Ancient Tomb deserve a slot to rise the odds of Turn 1 Chalice ?

Ancient tomb wasn't bad. Let me T1 revoker as well, and sneak a kill off green source + stage depths in play.

Ballista was MVP. Destroyed infect and won me my game 3 single handedly against miracles.

[Alexeezay]

So I went 7-2 at Eternal Weekend Paris and finished 21st out of 450. I'm a little bit disappointed but it's still a fine record. There was an abundance of Elves, Miracles and BUG variants and other fair stuff, Show & Tell seemed to be a rare deck this time. Must be a good metagame for RUG Lands.

I played Sparkii's list -1 Barbarian Ring +1 Tranquil Thicket and SB: 2 Chalice of the Void 4 Sphere of Resistance 1 Thorn of Amethyst 4 Krosan Grip 3 Tireless Tracker 1 Walking Ballista. I also cut 1 Intuition to have a 60 card deck.

Losses 2x to Miracles, 1 of them in the 8th round to the EW Winner, Tomas Mechin who played the same Miracles 75' as my friend Johannes Gutbrod (who top 16'ed). All in all it was pretty close.
I had a fun win vs. Storm on a mulligan to 4.

I'm sure I switched some rounds, this is all out of memory but the matchups are correct.
Round 1: 2-0 Death&Taxes
Round 2: 2-1 Miracles
Round 3: 2-1 ANT Storm
Round 4: 1-2 Miracles
Round 5: 2-1 Death&Taxes
Round 6: 2-0 Grixis Delver
Round 7: 2-0 Elves
Round 8: 0-2 Miracles
Round 9: 2-0 BR Reanimator

- All in all a great tournament with nice opponents from various countries, a great experience and serious setting to learn a lot from.
- location: -no windows -small/half-closed doors -small clock/screen +water station +food/concession stand with nice baguettes and coffee
- Crucible of Worlds, Intuition and my 1 Tranquil Thicket were really good. Gambles didn't show up much somehow.
- Tolaria West was so awesome that I wish I could fit in a second. Just fetching a Tabernacle or EE safely sometimes was cool.
- Horizon Canopy was a little weird and I might replace it with Lumbering Falls (UG 3/3 Hexproof manland) to kill Jaces and help out with the blue for Tolaria West and Ruins. A brazilian player who's testing the deck a lot recently recommended this one to me (my round 1 opponent, very nice guy).
- Tireless Tracker, maindeck Bog/Karakas all awesome as usual.
- Ghost Quarter kind of underperformed. I want to try Rishadan Port again until the next MKM Series in Frankfurt, might go for a 3 Port 1 GQ split.
- in Round 8 vs Miracles I boarded in my 5 Spheres instead of Krosan Grip and Intuition (on the play). I knew he's on Monastery Mentors and 0 Blood Moon in SB. He seemed to be surprised and a little scared but he drew pretty well. Do you guys have any experience with this plan? Thanks!
- congratulations to Tomas Mechin for winning Eternal Weekend Paris with Miracles. He wants to pick up Lands now as well!

[kravkenov]

This is the list I'm on right now. I'm attempting to carry the "Tutors and Singletons" theory to the ultimate extreme.

Maindeck
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
1 Manabond
4 Crop Rotation
1 Punishing Fire
2 Intuition
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam

// 34 Land
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Rishadan Port
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tolaria West

Sideboard
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Smokestack
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Glacial Chasm

Hey, how does this "full Tutors" list worked for you ? Especially the one Explosives, does it still do the job as good as the 3 Explosives classic package ?

[Ciubulu]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170411/ef37eaece5461cfd5ff2ab62f0f85d6d.jpg

Looks like we have something new to work with [emoji4]

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I don't see how that card makes sense in Lands. Her plus and zero are very underwhelming for 3 mana and her ultimate is not really what a deck swinging for 20 wants. Tracker, confidant or sylvan library just seem so much better if you are interested in playing a decay-able permanent that gives card advantage.

[Lormador]

Hey, how does this "full Tutors" list worked for you ? Especially the one Explosives, does it still do the job as good as the 3 Explosives classic package ?

You put your finger on the exact problem that this list has: access to EE (and to a lesser extent, Punishing Fire). Crop Rotation doesn't find it at all, Gamble is not always your friend when searching for a nonland card, the value pile with Intuition takes 2 turns to set up, and any/all of these spells are subject to countermagic.

What the "Full Tutors" list does better than all others I've tried is establish the baseline "this is what Lands does" setup: Exploration or Manabond on the field, active Loam, and some form of mana denial. The price, as I described, is removal access.

Overall, I've noticed this effect on matchups. Against those decks where "what Lands does" is plenty to win (Delver of Secrets), it retains its traditional huge advantage. The costs/benefits offset one another and the percentages are still quite favorable. DRS is a bit more of a problem than he otherwise would be, but it's fine.

Some matchups suffer. Merfolk, I've found, is atrocious. You need EE and there's no time to goof around looking for it. DnT isn't quite as bad, but it's certainly worse.

[The_Dingo]

How do you approach the miracles MU in game 1 with RUG lands? With RGCL I have been leaning pretty heavily on boseiju with loam and then try to ghost quarter my opponent into the dirt OR just jamming the combo turn after turn until I win. It usually works very well if exploration is on the table, and only medium well if I can't get extra land drops. But the thing is, I'm hesitant to play any loam strategy without a pretty sure fire way of resolving the loams against counterbalance. Is engineered explosives recursion fast enough to take care of a counterbalance before we die to mentor or angels? Should I be trying to put EE at 2 preemptively?

[Lormador]

The value and speed of EE in the Miracles matchup depends on several factors. I'd say that they are these.

1) How many EE do I run? 3 is the classic package, but there are defensible options all the way down to 1.
2) How many Tolaria West do I run? This tends to be 1 or 0.
3) Do I play Crucible of Worlds? Coupled with Ruins, this is quite strong against Counterbalance as they rarely have the 3s to stop this AND the 2 to stop Loam. Once it's resolved, CB is pretty irrelevant in G1.
4) Do I play MD Boseiju? This is a page from the RGCL playbook. I so around and around with this, Glacial Chasm, and Bojuka Bog between MD and SB. No idea which is best (though I think Boseiju might belong in SB, in which case I'm not sure it's worth the slot).

The simplest, "classic" package is 3 EE and 1 Academy Ruins, and you may or may not want Tolaria West in the deck. The thing is that Academy Ruins is really needed to get it going, and without Tolaria West you'll probably have to Crop Rotation for that: which means tutor will be cast in response to Counterbalance most games. If it gets Forced or countered at this point, bad things happen afterward.

The elegance of the 3 EE 1 Ruins package is that even if this counter does hit Crop Rotation, there extra copies of EE let you just jam them, killing Counterbalance and continuing to Loam through the deck until Ruins appears. The card is very strong in a lot of matchups. The downside is that extra EE tend to be redundant since you can recur a single copy just as well.

Running fewer than the 3 EE in the classic package means that one had better have alternative means of shoring up those situations, i.e. Crucible, Tolaria West, or super-spiffy SB cards.

[Sparkii]

Most miracle matchups are slow enough where you can EE away the counterbalance and run away with the game. If you're really concerned with the matchup or your meta is miracles heavy just slot a boseiju in the main. I haven't personally had trouble with being able to deal with it but YMMV. The predict lists can predict your EE away as well so be wary of that.

[Lormador]

I've been trying an Ancient Tomb in the sideboard (with 5 combo hate artifacts), and the card has been rather great. Obviously it's there primarily for the combo matchups, where it opens up Crop Rotation --> T1 hate rock, but there's other utility as well. It's nice to have a land that can come in to replace another utility land that doesn't do a whole lot in the matchup, but the removal of which hurts the deck that with so much land dependence. Like Karakas against BUG Delver where their only legendary might be a couple of Leovolds, or Boseiju against a deck without countermagic. Plus the "T1 Tireless Tracker YOLO" dream can live.

It's not at its highest impact in those cases, but I feel the impact from those T1 Spheres against combo is massive enough for Ancient Tomb to pass the "sideboard cards must have high impact" test.

[.Ix]

... I feel the impact from those T1 Spheres against combo is massive enough for Ancient Tomb to pass the "sideboard cards must have high impact" test.

I've tried it before and while it is fantastic for accelerating into spheres, the probability of that being relevant is actually not huge. We have to have the sphere ( 47% at 5pcs), the tomb (1 tomb + 4 crop rotation, still 47%), and not have the mox+land (4 mox, 60%).

This happens 13% of the time in the opening hand.

I'm not sure if that's worth a slot, assuming this is what we're running the Tomb for.

[Lormador]

After half an hour on the Deck-u-lator, I think I have an answer of some sort. I am just going to ignore mulligans.

Crop Rot + Hate Rock + Green source (I run 11):
12% chance of this happening

Tomb + Rock
5.5% chance of this happening

Mox + 2 land + Rock
16.3% chance of this happening

...so if we can see that relying on Mox alone to power out a T1 Chalice or Sphere gives us a 16.3% chance of getting a Mox, 2 lands, and a relevant artifact. I have ignored the case of multiple lands that don't produce mana in this case.

We can't just add up the probabilities involving Tomb on to this, because there's going to be overlap where the Tomb hand is also a regular Mox hand, however we can calculate the probability of those overlap hands and subtract it out:

1 Mox 1 Rock 1 Green 1 Crop 1 other land
3.1% of an overlapping hand

...turning a 16.3% into a 30.7% on the opening seems like a great deal to me, and I'm certainly going to feel better about going to 6 or 5.

It's actually a little more impact than a "regular" sideboard card would have. If there were a 0 CMC, "Win Target Sideboarded Game" card that we ran as a 1-of, we'd get an 11.7% chance to get it in the opening 7. Ancient Tomb is 0.7% better than that. W00t. Alternatively, I did not do so well in probability and may need to erase a lot of this at a future date in order to save face.

I was about to compare Tomb's side role here to Clique, and then I started wondering why I don't try Clique in this deck.

[Sockosensei]

...turning a 16.3% into a 30.7% on the opening seems like a great deal to me, and I'm certainly going to feel better about going to 6 or 5.

Thanks for running the numbers.
You focused on landing T1 hate pieces with 7-card hands, but it's worth emphasizing the increase for 6- and 5-card hands as well. These are matchups where we mulligan aggressively for hate. I'll leave it to you too run the exact numbers :wink:

For a singleton out of the board, that passes the "high impact" test.

[Sparkii]

I ran tomb in the heavy combo meta at the last GPT and it was okay. I'd need more testing with it. I did get to crop roto a turn earlier and kill with it though. That was neat.

[.Ix]

...turning a 16.3% into a 30.7% on the opening seems like a great deal to me, and I'm certainly going to feel better about going to 6 or 5.


The mulligans should increase the probability by a significant amount. I definitely did not consider that we mulligan a lot more in these matchups. That sounds like it should be worth it in very combo heavy metagames. By the way, I ignored the probability of having the green sources because you're going to mull hands without those anyway.

[kravkenov]

Howdy RUG Players, by the end of the month I will take part to a medium scaled legacy tournament (between 60 to 80 players) with my kind of RUG Lands. I say kind of because the list is a bit away to the typical RUG build, but it still pack Explosives, Ruins and Tolaria. I'm not yet set on the burn package (Punishing vs Vortex) but the list "as is" dosent underperform. So I have done a small sideboarding sheet where I wrote my INs/OUTs for most of the MUs.
If any of you are interested to help me on a sideboard table plan, you are most welcome and I will really appreciate your help. I might have forgive a couple of MUs, if you spot it just let me know :)
Here is my list : https://cl.ly/k6Ct/LEGACY_BLUE_GARDEN.txt
If you don't want to flood this thread just PM me :)
I will do the best to take precise notes on every MUs and share a complete review of the tournament.

[Alexeezay]

Thanks for the link, good overview!
- Vs Storm: You want Phyrexian Revoker for Petal and LED. Tolaria West is good! It tutors Chalice. On the play I board Tireless Tracker to have a clock and draw more Spheres.

-Vs Show&Tell: You want Phyrexian Revoker for Petal, Sneak Attack and Griselbrand. I also board Tireless Tracker, it won me some games, but especially so against Omniscience to draw into Spheres and/or Krosan Grips. If you drop in a Sphere and K.Grip on your next turn you're good to go. Best scenario you play an early Sphere followed by Tracker and keep stuff in hand while beating him down.

- Vs Elves I wouldn't cut Moxes if you bring in Sphere/Chalice. I only bring in Spheres on the play because speed/tempo is pretty important in this MU. Sphere is way worse than Chalice here because Heritage Druid/Gaea's Cradle most likely still just kill you.

- Vs D&T: Why do you cut Karakas? They run Thalia or stuff like Mangara. It's a pretty useful land here. I prefer to cut Crop Rotation instead of Mox because you can't combo kill them most of the time and ramping out Tracker is good. Mox is also useful against Cataclysm.

[Crimhead]

With Miracles gone, Maybe that's one fewer reason to prefer RUG over RGCL?

Thoughts?

[non-inflammable]

Thoughts?

gonna have to rethink all my miracles hate; should've been terminus...

[Crimhead]

gonna have to rethink all my miracles hate; should've been terminus...
Got a feeling Terminus won't bother us anymore!
100% agree that would have been a better ban.

I don't have dedicated Miracles hate. My Miracles board is there for other decks - Spheres, CotVs, Trackers, and Grips/ADs. The only exceptions are Boseiju and Drownyard as (occasional) singletons.

[non-inflammable]

The only exceptions are Boseiju and Drownyard as (occasional) singletons.

oh the days of thespian staging your drownyard for milling 6 off their library!

no need for my pet cards anymore: worm harvest and smokestack...

[kravkenov]

I think it's time for Glacial Chasm to come back into the main !
All Storm/Combo deck that where keep in check by Miracle are now in a Highway.

[non-inflammable]

on a lighter note: i did get a foil sheltered thicket... gonna try it over a tranquil thicket

[Crimhead]

Got a tourney with dual land prize support today, and have had the pleasure of revising the deck!

I'm looking at this for a list:

depths 2
stage 3
wasteland 4
port 4
gq 1
fetches 3
grove 3
Trop 2
taiga 1
Sheltered thicket 1
forest 1
chasm 1
bog 1
ruins 1
t west 2
tabernacle 1
karakas 1
maze 3
portal 1

ee 2
exploration 4
gamble 1
rotation 3
intuition 2
mox 4
crucible 1
loam 4
punishing fire 2
vortex 2

SB:
chalice 3
sphere of resistance 3
3ball 1
krosan grip 4
seismic assault 1
ancient tomb 1
rotation 1
zorb 1

After much deliberation and flip-flopping, I am sticking with RUG. I like EE too much against too many decks, and by the time I'm running Trop, 2 Explosives, and Ruins, thefe is not enojgh deck space for the combo push which would be my reason for going RG.

Changes:

+4 Ports
-3 GQ

Figuring Port is better vs Storm and other combo decks for holding them off early. Also Port is much better vs Leotard and TNN.

-1 BRing

Always have enjoyed this card in Lands, but I needed a cut (see above) and something had to give. I do have EE, and I'm hoping the Elves will take care of D&T for me. Also I'm expecting more :r: D&T - hardly worth even slotting for.

The other option I considered was down to 3 Ports, but I don't like that as much. Karakas stays because Lands is popular here.

-1 Taiga
+1 Sheltered Thicket

Doubles as Tranquil Thicket. I have 4 other fetchables that don't CIPT, including the singleton Taiga.
If this works for me (and if the finish the cycle) I will petition WotC to ban the ABUR dual lands. :tounge:

-1 Gamble
+1 Crop Rotation

This still leaves me 3 tutors for Loam - which is plenty. I like CR more for racing combo - especially with Tomb in the board.

Side Board:

-1 Boseiju
+1 Ancient Tomb

Need I explain?

-3 Trackers
+1 Seismic
+1 3ball
+1 Rotation

Basically I'm focusing less on a back up for grave hate, and more on combo and moon decks. I have Crucible and Thicket for Surgicals, and extra CRs help me win without recursion.

Possible change:

In the further interest of Moon protection, I want:

-1 PF
+1 Vortex

Sadly the store where I bough Sheltered Thicked was out of Vortices. Apparently a bunch of jerks want them for a Modern Swan deck? I hope they know they are ruining it for the rest of us!

I'll hit another LGS en route to the event, plus the host might have one too. Otherwise, 2/2 split.

Wish me luck - 1st prize is a Volcanic, 2nd a Bayou, 3rd/4th a (non-Island) Mountain dual. 5th-8th Wasteland.

EDIT - Vortex #3 acquired.

[Sparkii]

Top 4 split yet another GPT, yet still unable to covert to byes. Ugh. Played 6 rounds of Swiss.

R1: DnT 2-0
R2: Omnitell 2-1
R3: RG Lands 2-1
R4: Shardless 2-1
R5: ID
R6: ID

I enter top 8 as first seed.

Quarters: Same RG lands player 2-1
Semis: Deathblade 1-2

Tomb was nice, won me a few games being able to combo a turn earlier. Never needed it to chalice. Chalice main was a hedge against me expecting a ton of combo and elves, being to gamble for it G1 was a nice option I feel.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
1 Intuition
2 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sudden Demise

[kravkenov]

I just Top4ed at the tournament I was speaking few post back.
As I didn't run any blue spell (no Intuition) but still with Tolaria, Academy and Explosives, I don't really know where my list fit : RUG Lands, RG Lands ? Probably a mix between both. Anyway, here is the message from the RG thread :


Just made top4 (out of 73 players) with RG Explosives.
I will write a report in the couple of hours to tell a bit deeply how this tournament goes.
For the moment, here's the decks I fought during these 7 Swiss rounds + top 8 :
R1 2-1 UR Delver (1-0-0)
R2 2-1 Aggro Loam 4C (2-0-0)
R3 2-1 Sneak Show (3-0-0)
R4 1-1 Grixis Delver (3-0-1)
R5 2-1 Eldrazi (4-0-1)
R6 2-0 Foodchain (5-0-1)
R7 ID into top8 (5-0-2)

After the Swiss rounds my buddy were placed first with 19pts, and I was second with 17pts.

1/4 Burn 2-1 (an epic game)
1/2 split because it was time to go home and take care of my kids.


Report here : http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31632-Top-4-with-Lands-at-Geneva-Legacy-9-(mkm-trial)&p=1005211&viewfull=1#post1005211

By the way, thanks again for all your support for my sideboarding plan. This was very helpful :)

[non-inflammable]

I played over the weekend with about 20 players; top 8'd and got my entry back.
I used a list similar to sparkii's and I felt that Molten Vortex was nearly useless since I never had an active Loam engine going
and Sea Gate Wreckage felt bad, too...
EE was an all-star.

Eldrazi 2-0 win (waste lock and won game 2 behind a bridge)
Green Sligh aggro? 2-1 win (hid behind a bridge and pun/fired him game 3)
Dredge 2-1 win (crop rot for bog was sweet game 1)
S&T 0-2 loss (emmi, grisel and omnitell)
S&T ID into top 8

I was 3-1-1 and i played against:

BUGW 1-2 loss (deathrite, stonforge, true-name, jace, swords to plow, etc..)
game 1, I just ate up his mana base and gave his true-name a visit to the Tabernacle.
games 2 & 3 he always had a counter and spell pierced everything (active deathrites...)
In game 2, I gambled away my dark depths with 4 cards in hand and stage in play!

Here are the decks i saw in the room:
top-less UR painter, lantern control, BR reanimator, elves, S&T, D&T, Eldrazi, dredge, a weird BG bitterblossom/elves deck and lots of BUG control.

In the past, I've run a few white sources for Thalia and even a COP:red but I'm gonna go back to two horizon canopy
and start sideboarding two Porphyry Nodes for the BUG match-ups...
and I will look for a drop of honey!

[Sparkii]

Semi final master again, top 4'ed another incredibly combo heavy meta.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Exploration
1 Molten vortex
1 Manabond
3 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire

2 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Warping Wail
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Surgical Extraction

R1: BR reanimator 2-0
R2: TES 2-1
R3: DnT 2-0
R4: Mono B Reanimator 2-1
R5: ID

Top 8:
Quarters: Eldrazi 2-0
Semis: Same monoB as the Swiss 0-2

[kravkenov]

Good job Sparkii !
Quick question on your sideboard choice. Isn't Naturalize better suited than Krosan Grip now that splitsecond isn't that much needed to fight Counterbalance !?
I didn't make the switch on my last tournament because I was a bit lazy, but this is definitly something I will do for the my next one.

Also did the Crucible/Ghost Quarter well performed !?

[Sparkii]

Good job Sparkii !
Quick question on your sideboard choice. Isn't Naturalize better suited than Krosan Grip now that splitsecond isn't that much needed to fight Counterbalance !?
I didn't make the switch on my last tournament because I was a bit lazy, but this is definitly something I will do for the my next one.

Also did the Crucible/Ghost Quarter well performed !?

Ghost quarter was okay, but the matches I played aren't ones you really GQ out. I did GQ out my R1 reanimator player, and eldrazi.

I like split second against things like vial, relic of progenitus, jitte, Aluren, Omni and the ability to be able to recur fires under a deathrite staredown.

[kravkenov]

Ghost quarter was okay, but the matches I played aren't ones you really GQ out. I did GQ out my R1 reanimator player, and eldrazi.

I like split second against things like vial, relic of progenitus, jitte, Aluren, Omni and the ability to be able to recur fires under a deathrite staredown.

I asked about GQ because in the current heavy combo meta we are fighting through these days, it looks like Port are a more efficient Mana denial play than GQ. at least, this is my personal feeling.

On the Krosan case, I didn't yet face lot of situation where splitsecond really matters. Naturalize do the job for me.

[Sparkii]

Lost in the finals of another small GPT playing the same list, sideboard change of -1 chalice +1 thorn.

R1: Turbo Depths 2-1
R2: Deathblade 2-1
R3: UR delver 2-0
R4: ID

Top 4:

Semis: UR delver 2-1
Finals: infect 1-2

Lost in the finals to a perfect hand for infect. T1 Glistener elf with invigorate + berserk and daze backup.

[Scott]

RUG Lands got top 8 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30223-Card-Kingdom-Mox-Boarding-House-Legacy-Metagame-Results&p=1007860#post1007860) at a 56-person Mox Boarding House tournament (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByOiyutb-yd6cHdaclN4bG4tU1U/view) last week:

// Land (34)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Maze of Ith
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Tolaria West
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Artifact (7)
4 Mox Diamond
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

// Instant (8)
4 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
1 Intuition

// Sorcery (7)
4 Life from the Loam
3 Gamble

// Enchantment (4)
4 Exploration

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancient Tomb
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Tireless Tracker
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

[Sparkii]

Split top 8 of CFB's $4k today.

1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sheltered Thicket
2 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Crop Rotation
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Exploration
3 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
1 Manabond
1 Molten Vortex
4 Mox Diamond
3 Punishing Fire
Sideboard:

1 Ancient Tomb
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warping Wail


Deck felt solid. I really like the new cycling land.

I played against:

R1: Bantblade? Deathblade? Whatever you want to call it. 2-0
R2: DnT 2-0
R3: RG Lands 2-0
R4: ANT 2-1
R5: DnT 2-0
R6/7: ID

[Alexeezay]

Nice, Sparki!
This is the list I played in the last local to 3-1-1:

4 Exploration
4 Mox
4 Loam
4 Crop Rotation
3 P Fire
3 EE
2 Gamble
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Maze of Ith
1 Rifststone Portal/ should have been Ghost Quarter
1 Sheltered Thicket
3 Thespian`s Stage
2 Dark Depths
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Tolaria West
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
3 Fetch
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Sylvok Replica
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hull Breach
1 Walking Ballista
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Warping Wail
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Maze -

2-0 vs S&T - Game 1 I locked him with Mana Denial + MD Chalice + Karakas safety. Game 2 I had Sphere and Krosan Grip as Omniscience Protection alongside Karakas + Mana Denial again.
Draw vs Infect - weird...usually this is a fast matchup but Game2 was super grindy and he didn't want to scoop just yet because he could've still won with a super low percentage. Oh well
0-2 Deathblade - still shocked...G1 he probed me, seeing Mox Loam Exploration PFire 3 Colourless lands. Spell Pierced my Mox and I drew no coloured source/Mox again lol...
2-0 BUG Leovold GSZ - easy kills with Marit Lage
2-0 Turbo Depths - maindeck Chalice wrecked him even more

Things to note:
- I really like Mana Maze and/or Arcane Laboratory right now because Storm boards in Hurkyl's Recall
- Sylvok Replica synergizes with Academy Ruins, is fine vs. Omniscience and just as good vs. Moon decks as KGrips. I might run a 2nd one over Hull Breach
- Warping Wail overperforms, it simply does everything you want out of it.
- Phyrexian Revoker kind of meh so far
- Chalice main is unexpected and nice to have but I payed the prize - only running 2 Gamble which might be bad.
- I feel like you really want at least 1 Ghost Quarter even if you run Port - I wished for it several times so it's gonna replace Riftstone Portal
- Tolaria West got cut by some of you...but it was a really important tool in my matches, especially because of the fact that it's an uncounterable tutor vs. decks like Show & Tell
- Sheltered Thicket is great, because you have to play your cycle land more often than you'd want and having access to Red mana can be very important.

[CovenantElite30]

I posted this in the RG lands forum but the same is true for the RUG lands version as well. "Looks like a lot of people lately have been having success online playing 4 Ghost Quarter and dropping Rishadian Ports. This could be because ports are so expensive. I wonder if this is the directly to take this deck with all the non basics running around."

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[CovenantElite30]

Had another question. Is the only reason to splash blue is for Academy Ruins?

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[Emrakul503]

Had another question. Is the only reason to splash blue is for Academy Ruins?

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Regarding Port, I have seen some people play 4 GQ by choice, and have tested it a bit. I think Port is still pretty invaluable, even if split. Online, no Port is reasonable due yo the high cost, but if you own them in paper, I'd never cut below 2-3, personally. I am playing only 3 right now, and don't really miss the 4th. Also, you don't have to sacrifice them after use, which is very useful imo. That said, I think you COULD play without them just fine.

As for blue, some lists play Intuition and/or Tolaria West. Most lists I have seen just play U for EE/Academy Ruins.

[Sparkii]

The current meta is too fast for intuition and tolaria west right now, regardless how much I enjoy playing them.

[Dice_Box]

With any luck the new set will offer a G/U cycler. That will be most useful I feel.

[Crimhead]

With any luck the new set will offer a G/U cycler. That will be most useful I feel.
Yes! I'm loving Sheltered Thicket and would welcome its U/G cousin. Plenty of Extraction in my area, so I'll probably drop down to just 1 each of the ABUR duals.
Technically I should say "R duals" - I'm not fancy.

I wonder if a U/G fetchable cycler will increase interest in RUG (or a :u: splash)? I imagine quite a few players who jumped on RGCL were not "blue players", and Trops cost a lot of money these days. The cost of staples discourages players from branching out - even players who own a Tabernacle.

@Sparki, I do like that list. It's more of a RUG list using RGCL tutors than a RG list splashing blue (which I was never happy with). Think I'll configure something similar.

Why the Thorns over extra Spheres? Are the sphere's getting in the way of your Revokers? Are you protecting against Extraction? Those seems a trivial concerns next to shutting down Elves and Food Chain.

[filln]

Why the Thorns over extra Spheres? Are the sphere's getting in the way of your Revokers? Are you protecting against Extraction? Those seems a trivial concerns next to shutting down Elves and Food Chain.

Could also be a meta call. If you have lots of Storm, it's better to diversify rocks to defend against Echoing Truth.

[Sparkii]

Diversified hate is better against echoing truth as well as cabal therapy. I don't bring sphere in against elves anyways.

[Crimhead]

Diversified hate is better against echoing truth as well as cabal therapy. I don't bring sphere in against elves anyways.
That makes sense. I guess I should pick up some thorns!

[Flower_Power]

The current meta is too fast for intuition and tolaria west right now, regardless how much I enjoy playing them.

Would you happen to have a list with the U splash just for EE/Ruins?

[kravkenov]

Would you happen to have a list with the U splash just for EE/Ruins?

If I remember correctly, here is the list I managed to Top4 with (approx 80 players) about one month ago :

4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gamble
4 Molten Vortex
2 Engineered Explosives
— — 26 — —
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
2 Maze of Ith
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Tropical Island
3 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
— — 34 — —

I'm a big fan of Molten Vortex, but if you got more feelings with Punishing Fire, you can just remplace Vortex by Punishing and shave a Fetch, a Taiga and Barbarian ring to make room for Grove.

This list was good, but it was a bit harsh when I need Vortex and just Loam it away. Now I play a very similar list with 2 Barbarian Ring and a Sheltered Thicket (changes are +1 Barbarian, +1 Sheltered Thicket, -1 Taiga, -1 Tranquil Thicket).

For the sideboard, I'm currently running the following cards :

4 Tireless Tracker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Naturalize // Krosan Grip
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Walking Ballista // 1 Ancient Tomb

Walking Ballista dosent really perform good enough and I think Ancient Tomb is better to fight fast deck with a turn 1 Sphere or Chalice. If I choose to play Ghost Quarter over Rishadan Port, then I shave an Explosives for a Crucible of Worlds. Hope it give a start for your deck :)

[Sparkii]

Would you happen to have a list with the U splash just for EE/Ruins?

My list is higher up on the page. I split the ChannelFireBall $4k last weekend.

[Ingo]

Split top 8 of CFB's $4k today.

Sideboard:

1 Ancient Tomb
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Warping Wail
[/cards]

Deck felt solid. I really like the new cycling land.



What strikes me most in your list, is the amount of combohate in the side, and the lack of Trackers. I'm curious about your experience with gravehate your opponents side in?

[Sparkii]

What strikes me most in your list, is the amount of combohate in the side, and the lack of Trackers. I'm curious about your experience with gravehate your opponents side in?

Surgical is everywhere here as a nod to BR Reanimator. Otherwise, I've seen RIP, Faerie macabre and things like tormod's crypt too. I'm not a fan of tracker in the current meta, too much decay and plow. There's often too much to Surgical out in the deck and you play careful with the Depths plan if you go that route. My most commonly surgicaled card aside from Loam is wasteland, still leaving you ghost quarters, pfire and EE recursion, as well as the combo.

[Flower_Power]

My list is higher up on the page. I split the ChannelFireBall $4k last weekend.

Yeah, just saw it lol. I found the exact list on MTGTop8 and have been running it a bit lately. I absolutely LOVE how the list plays. I just have one question though, and that's when do you board in Warping Wails?

[Sparkii]

Yeah, just saw it lol. I found the exact list on MTGTop8 and have been running it a bit lately. I absolutely LOVE how the list plays. I just have one question though, and that's when do you board in Warping Wails?

I board Wail in a lot more than I thought I would. It's good against the general creature deck killing half the formats creatures, so any blade/delver deck, elves or goblins. Also almost every combo deck uses some sorcery that is not good for us, i.e: show and tell, infernal tutor, reanimate/exhume, natural order.

There was a 5-0 RG lands list on modo that played one in the main. Might be a consideration, but I like them boarded for now.

Don't forget most of the decks playing black will also board Diabolic edict against you and you can make an eldrazi friend to sacrifice to it.