Cards that cause Judges to get called

[Nuke is Good]

I was thinking of cards that cause people in tournaments to call judges due to: awkward game states, confusing oracle text, and just being so obscure for future deck creation ideas. I always like seeing people go: "It does what now?" when they see a card. I got someone to say that playing a Japanese Empyrial Archangel since Reanimator uses Inkwell Leviathan for the shroud fatty.

So far cards I can think of are:

Chains of Mephistopheles
Humility
Opalescence

[(nameless one)]

I would say Trinisphere with Lodestone Golem. Usually, Trinisphere alone does it as well.

[Julian23]

Back in 2009 Knight of the Mists used to cause quite a lot of trouble whenever I killed my opponent's Knight of the Reliquary with it.

[rufus]

A lot of the really zany cards aren't competitive. Another fun one is:
Ice Cauldron

[wcm8]

Sylvan Library, particularly whenever there is some other card on-board that affects drawing.

[nedleeds]

Is this cards you've actually played in sanctioned legacy? If so this isn't close ...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/251.jpg

and

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/an/5.jpg

[JPoJohnson]

Mesmeric Orb/Basalt Monolith

You guys know what I'm talking about.

[Michael Keller]

Humility has got to be at the top.

[Megadeus]

I would say Trinisphere with Lodestone Golem. Usually, Trinisphere alone does it as well.

Nah. Usually people are just bad and decide to spend three mana and waste the fourth in their pool on every spell they cast.

[Shawon]

Apparently, one of my judge friends got 19 judge calls about this card in a Modern PTQ:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=370419&type=card

[Megadeus]

"So my Hallowed fountain?"
"That's a mountain"
"And my celestial Collonade?"
"Mountain"
"What if I activate it?"
"You can't. It's a mountain"

[nevilshute]

"So my Hallowed fountain?"
"That's a mountain"
"And my celestial Collonade?"
"Mountain"
"What if I activate it?"
"You can't. It's a mountain"

"But that... that's not fair"

[nedleeds]

Blood Moon FAdumbQ's

"Do I name with cavern?"
"Price of Progress?"
"Your Covetous Dragon is dead ... because Great Furnace?"
"You can't attack with that Dryad Arbor?"

[Dice_Box]

These days, Skullcrack has gotten no small amount of calls.

"I attack with my Grim Lavamancer."
"I block with True-Name."
"Ok, before damage, Crack you."
"Ok."
"Ok damage step, True-Name dies."
"JUDGE!"

[Ace/Homebrew]

Blood Moon
Does Dark Depths still get counters? (yes)
How do I remove them? (can't)
It's a Legendary Snow Nonbasic Mountain.

Trinisphere is enough on it's own but add another card to the equation... :eek:
I can resolve my Brainstorm through CotV@1 because Trinisphere makes it cost 3 right? Juuuuuudge!

[Benrobnu]

Is this cards you've actually played in sanctioned legacy? If so this isn't close ...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/251.jpg

and

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/an/5.jpg

I wasn't familiar with illusionary mask till I played against in an SCG. Instant judge call.

[Darkenslight]

Humility is the biggie, but there are also some other interesting cards/combos that will get judge calls.

For example, the biggest one is Four Horsemen combo (Basalt Monolith/Mesmeric Orb/Sharuum the Hegemon/Blasting Station combo). But others include Opalescence (especially with a Humility out), 3Sphere, Chains of Mephistopheles are also pretty big.

[Valtrix]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/som/176.jpg

And yes, I do actually play this card in Modern right now. The biggest one is when I ask to look at my opponent's sideboard.

[Benrobnu]

Humility is the biggie, but there are also some other interesting cards/combos that will get judge calls.

For example, the biggest one is Four Horsemen combo (Basalt Monolith/Mesmeric Orb/Sharuum the Hegemon/Blasting Station combo). But others include Opalescence (especially with a Humility out), 3Sphere, Chains of Mephistopheles are also pretty big.

Humility also has interactions that seem ... counterintuitive with cards like Painter Servant.

[aluisiocsantos]

Is this cards you've actually played in sanctioned legacy? If so this isn't close ...

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/be/251.jpg

and

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/an/5.jpg

Gotta love old Magic writing format. (= no formats at all)

[Julian23]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/som/176.jpg

And yes, I do actually play this card in Modern right now. The biggest one is when I ask to look at my opponent's sideboard.

You used to be unable to look at your opponent's sideboard until they allowed players to look at their SBs during matches.

The most interesting interaction back then was casting Wishes with Mindslaver. Burning, Cunning, Living and Golden Wish would just get no card. Death Wish however would make you get a random card from your opponent's face-down sideboard.

[Tammit67]

How has no one mentioned Life and Limb?

[JDK]

Karn Liberated


6/1/2011: Karn's first and third abilities are linked. Similarly, Karn's second and third abilities are linked. Only cards exiled by either of Karn's first two abilities will remain in exile when the game restarts.
6/1/2011: A game that restarts immediately ends. The players in that game then immediately begin a new game. No player wins, loses, or draws the original game as a result of Karn's ability.
6/1/2011: In a multiplayer games (a game that started with three or more players in it), any player that left the game before it was restarted with Karn's ability won't be involved in the new game.
6/1/2011: The player who controlled the ability that restarted the game is the starting player in the new game. The new game starts like a game normally does:
-- Each player shuffles his or her deck (except the cards left in exile by Karn's ability).
-- Each player's life total becomes 20 (or the starting life total for whatever format you're playing).
-- Players draw a hand of seven cards. Players may take mulligans.
-- Players may take actions based on cards in their opening hands, such as Chancellors and Leylines.
6/1/2011: After the pre-game procedure is complete, but before the new game's first turn, Karn's ability finishes resolving and the cards left in exile are put onto the battlefield. If this causes any triggered abilities to trigger, those abilities are put onto the stack at the beginning of the first upkeep step.
6/1/2011: Creatures put onto the battlefield due to Karn's ability will have been under their controller's control continuously since the beginning of the first turn. They can attack and their activated abilities with {T} in the cost can be activated.
6/1/2011: Any permanents put onto the battlefield with Karn's ability that entered the battlefield tapped will untap during their controller's first untap step.
6/1/2011: No actions taken in the game that was restarted apply to the new game. For example, if you were dealt damage by Stigma Lasher in the original game, the effect that states you can't gain life doesn't carry over to the new game.
6/1/2011: Players won't have any poison counters or emblems they had in the original game.
6/1/2011: In a Commander game, players put their commanders into the command zone before shuffling their deck.
6/1/2011: The number of times a player has cast his or her commander from the command zone resets to zero. Also, the amount of combat damage dealt to players by each commander is reset to 0.
6/1/2011: If a player's commander was exiled with Karn at the game restarted, that commander won't be put into the command zone at the beginning of the game. It will be put onto the battlefield when Karn's ability finishes resolving.
6/1/2011: In a multiplayer game using the limited range of influence option, all players are affected and will restart the game, not just those within the range of influence of the ability's controller.
7/1/2013: Planeswalkers are permanents. You can cast one at the time you could cast a sorcery. When your planeswalker spell resolves, it enters the battlefield under your control.
7/1/2013: Planeswalkers are not creatures. Spells and abilities that affect creatures won’t affect them.
7/1/2013: Planeswalkers have loyalty. A planeswalker enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to the number printed in its lower right corner. Activating one of its abilities may cause it to gain or lose loyalty counters. Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from it. If it has no loyalty counters on it, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard as a state-based action.
7/1/2013: Planeswalkers each have a number of activated abilities called “loyalty abilities.” You can activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker you control only at the time you could cast a sorcery and only if you haven’t activated one of that planeswalker’s loyalty abilities yet that turn.
7/1/2013: The cost to activate a planeswalker’s loyalty ability is represented by a symbol with a number inside. Up-arrows contain positive numbers, such as “+1”; this means “Put one loyalty counter on this planeswalker.” Down-arrows contain negative numbers, such as “-7”; this means “Remove seven loyalty counters from this planeswalker.” A symbol with a “0” means “Put zero loyalty counters on this planeswalker.”
7/1/2013: You can’t activate a planeswalker’s ability with a negative loyalty cost unless the planeswalker has at least that many loyalty counters on it.
7/1/2013: Planeswalkers can’t attack (unless an effect turns the planeswalker into a creature). However, they can be attacked. Each of your attacking creatures can attack your opponent or a planeswalker that player controls. You say which as you declare attackers.
7/1/2013: If your planeswalkers are being attacked, you can block the attackers as normal.
7/1/2013: If a creature that’s attacking a planeswalker isn’t blocked, it’ll deal its combat damage to that planeswalker. Damage dealt to a planeswalker causes that many loyalty counters to be removed from it.
7/1/2013: If a source you control would deal noncombat damage to an opponent, you may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker that opponent controls instead. For example, although you can’t target a planeswalker with Shock, you can target your opponent with Shock, and then as Shock resolves, choose to have Shock deal its 2 damage to one of your opponent’s planeswalkers. (You can’t split up that damage between different players and/or planeswalkers.) If you have Shock deal its damage to a planeswalker, two loyalty counters are removed from it.
7/1/2013: If a player controls two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type, that player chooses one of them and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards as a state-based action.

Probably Grindstone + Emrakul or Progenitus too.

[Dice_Box]

I think the Grindstone interactions are very simple to explain. I also tend to find that people playing with Emmy tend to know how his effect works against Stone.

[thecrav]

I think the Grindstone interactions are very simple to explain. I also tend to find that people playing with Emmy tend to know how his effect works against Stone.

I've unfortunately stopped being surprised when my opponent doesn't know how their cards work.

[TheArchitect]

Transmute Artifact.

Also, Counterbalance, and entreat the angels or wear // tear. One of theses counters things that cost 3, the other counters things that cost either 1 or 2, but not 3.

[JDK]

I think the Grindstone interactions are very simple to explain. I also tend to find that people playing with Emmy tend to know how his effect works against Stone.

You'd be surprised. ;)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Abeyance
"Time Walk, cantrip AND counterspell."

Orim's Chant
"upk chant u"
"I Force"
"noob, u cant play fow coz ur under chant, idoit, bye lern rulz"

[Aesir]

A few judges I know have a "troll kit" which contains decks specifically designed to explain all aspects of Humility.

[JDK]

Abeyance
"Time Walk, cantrip AND counterspell."

Orim's Chant
"upk chant u"
"I Force"
"noob, u cant play fow coz ur under chant, idoit, bye lern rulz"

Do you play with 6yr olds? :confused:

[lordofthepit]

Play one of these, and I guarantee you will elicit a judge call:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/an/67.jpg

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Do you play with6th Edition rules? :confused:
Years ago I did.
Also, try MWS, it's really funny program with lots of potential! :wink:


edit: the interaction did not work under old rules, of course, but tell it to the unknowing.

[ubernostrum]

Cards that see play in actual Legacy events?

Chains of Mephistopheles tends to get a question from people who haven't seen it. I once was called over to a match where Reanimator player on Show and Tell plan put in Jin-Gitaxias, and Jund opponent dropped a Chains. Got to explain what would happen in the end step. Then got to wince at watching him cast a Brainstorm.

Illusionary Mask is actually pretty easy, though we can't give the correct answer (since the correct answer is that it reads "1: Morph a Phyrexian Dreadnought, and turn it face up just before it deals damage").

Pithing Needle is a similar source of non-answer answers. The answer to "can I name (some card)" is always yes. The answer to "does (some card) have any activated abilities Needle would stop" will vary, and that's the question you want to ask (we can't volunteer that information if you don't ask for it). When not in uniform I often advise players: If you ask a judge a question, and the judge immediately gives you a brief answer and lingers at the table, it is likely you asked the wrong question. Think carefully before proceeding.

Humility is still pretty fringe play, less so now that Sneak and Show isn't as big a deal. Though I have seen people play it in decks with manlands and not know how that interacts (you can activate Mishra's Factory and it will be a 2/2, but it will no longer be able to tap for mana or to pump).

Split second trips up lots of people. Yes, Krosan Grip can be countered by a Counterbalance trigger (they just have to already have the 3-drop in place), the card you wanted was Abrupt Decay. It can be Willbendered. They can crack LED in response. And branching out into Modern, yes Conley can sacrifice all his stuff to Krark-Clan Ironworks in response (actual call I took at GP MN).

Miracle, and alternative costs in general. Even experienced non-judges often mess up interactions with things that care about CMC (witness the brief confusion at the SCG this weekend when the commentators thought a miracle'd Entreat for 1 would trigger Eidolon of the Great Revel -- it doesn't).

The whole Metalworker combo. At Indy I was on a somewhat-long call in a feature match where the opponent didn't really understand the "yes, this means he has infinite mana and gets to draw his entire deck" bit. Granted, that one's a bit complicated, but still.

I have seen many, many people reveal a Merfolk from hand when Vialing in Silvergill Adept. I have assured several opponents of those people that revealing a card from your hand is perfectly legal to do.

And, of course, the time I was called because someone cast Vampiric Tutor. That is a card which, in Legacy, correctly results in a judge call.

[GoboLord]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/di/110.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/m12/16.jpg

Step 1: Animate Gideon Jura into a 6/6 creature.
Step 2: Tap Experiment Kraj to put a +1/+1 counter on Gideon Jura.
Step 3: Put two loyalty counters on Experiment Kraj.
Step 4: Call the judge.


Also people tend to disagree with me that I can cast Goblin Lackeys out of a Cavern of Souls under a Chalice of the Void with 1 counter.

And: prowl costs (as in Earwig Squad) are affected by Goblin Warchief .
And: I can trade your Sneak Attack for Confusion in the Ranks when both are put into play by Show and Tell.

[Richard Cheese]

We should make this thread into one of those handy pocket guides like "100 Words Everyone Confuses and Misuses".

[TsumiBand]

Step 1: Animate Gideon Jura into a 6/6 creature.
Step 2: Tap Experiment Kraj to put a +1/+1 counter on Gideon Jura.
Step 3: Put two loyalty counters on Experiment Kraj.
Step 4: Call the judge.

Ha!

It seems pretty clear from the "if able" clause how it should work, but yeah I can see why people would get pissy about it.

What's really funny is that they had to change the rules of planeswalkers (and loyalty abilities) precisely because of junk like this. Planeswalkers used to carry the rules baggage for once-per-turn loyalty abilities, which meant that if a non-planeswalker permanent could somehow adopt those abilities (case in point Gideon + Kraj, but there's other ones) then the stealing stealer of abilities could just play them infinitely, because they aren't planeswalkers so there was no longer a restriction. This was changed around a few years ago and now the restriction is on the loyalty abilities themselves, so if anything adopts them they can only pick one per turn to activate.

[kirkusjones]

winter's chill One of my friends hates this card. Someone played it against him in the fourth round of a tournament and he had to read it three or four times.

[HrishiQQ]

Almost every time I cast Transmute Artifact, I get a judge called on verifying how it works.

[HammerAndSickled]

winter's chill One of my friends hates this card. Someone played it against him in the fourth round of a tournament and he had to read it three or four times.
So, wait. Oracle text of this card says if they pay 2, they keep the guy and it deals combat damage normally, if they pay 1, they keep the guy but it gets fogged this turn. But since the destroy effect is at end of combat, what happens if you don't pay? Does the creature get fogged or not?

[Darkenslight]

Almost every time I cast Transmute Artifact, I get a judge called on verifying how it works.

Isn't it:

1) Sacrifice an artifact;
2) get another artifact;
3) if Art#2's CMC>Art#1's CMC, pay the difference or it disappears

that only happens when the spell resolves?

[thecrav]

Isn't it:

1) Sacrifice an artifact;
2) get another artifact;
3) if Art#2's CMC>Art#1's CMC, pay the difference or it disappears

that only happens when the spell resolves?

Yup. The sacrifice isn't even an additional cost! So much value!

[Rizso]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/di/110.jpghttp://magiccards.info/scans/en/m12/16.jpg

Step 1: Animate Gideon Jura into a 6/6 creature.
Step 2: Tap Experiment Kraj to put a +1/+1 counter on Gideon Jura.
Step 3: Put two loyalty counters on Experiment Kraj.
Step 4: Call the judge.


Also people tend to disagree with me that I can cast Goblin Lackeys out of a Cavern of Souls under a Chalice of the Void with 1 counter.

And: prowl costs (as in Earwig Squad) are affected by Goblin Warchief .
And: I can trade your Sneak Attack for Confusion in the Ranks when both are put into play by Show and Tell.

Just out of curousity does that forces the opponent attack even if its not legal to attack experiment kraj?

[Darkenslight]

Just out of curousity does that forces the opponent attack even if its not legal to attack experiment kraj?

Nope. Because you cannot attack a creature, anything that could force you to attack a creature becomes optional, as can't trumps can.

[dahcmai]

I had a deck I took to Grand Prix Chicago a few years back that got the judge called just about every game. Of course Humility was the main reason in it, but it had a ton of interactions that were hilarious.

My favorite was getting one called for attacking over a Moat with a Mishra's Factory with Humility on Board and an Elspeth Pump. The deck also had a Magus of the Moon in the board for extra annoying judge calls. The judge just came over during once match when I had a Koth out in that mess, laughed and called a different judge instantly. Guess he didn't really want to go that far into it.

[RokiLothbard]

Nope. Because you cannot attack a creature, anything that could force you to attack a creature becomes optional, as can't trumps can.

If they both survive for for another turn, and you 0 gideon again next turn, does the kraj get a -2 "destory target tapped creature" out the deal?

[Darkenslight]

If they both survive for for another turn, and you 0 gideon again next turn, does the kraj get a -2 "destory target tapped creature" out the deal?

Not 100% sure on that one. I'd have to check for certain.

[Meekrab]

So, wait. Oracle text of this card says if they pay 2, they keep the guy and it deals combat damage normally, if they pay 1, they keep the guy but it gets fogged this turn. But since the destroy effect is at end of combat, what happens if you don't pay? Does the creature get fogged or not?
Ten year old ruling from gatherer:


Rulings
10/4/2004 The payments are made when the spell resolves. The three options are: pay {2} to let creature act as normal, pay {1} to have creature neither deal or receive damage, or pay nothing and the creature does deal and receive damage but it will be destroyed at end of combat.

[G_g]

I was playing commander, and a friend resolved Goblin Game. We ended up writing the "number of items" on paper pieces and then revealed the number. The card seems Unhinged/Unglued material to me, but in a competitive REL, are we supposed to really hide objects? What objects? Someone at wizards did a great job publishing that outside the Un-sets

[Meekrab]

I was playing commander, and a friend resolved Goblin Game. We ended up writing the "number of items" on paper pieces and then revealed the number. The card seems Unhinged/Unglued material to me, but in a competitive REL, are we supposed to really hide objects? What objects? Someone at wizards did a great job publishing that outside the Un-sets
Gatherer has a ruling for this too. Writing down a number seems like the simplest way to go, especially in a Commander game where life totals can be all over the place.


10/4/2004 When it comes to choice of items, use common sense. Items should be small enough to hide but large enough to count. Make it clear what kind of object you are hiding beforehand. For example, one player may choose coins and the other may choose dice. If you can't find something convenient to hide, write numbers on a piece of paper and reveal the numbers. Make sure the numbers are unambiguous (for example, underline a 6 or 9 so it can't be misread).

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goblin+game

[(nameless one)]

We banned Shaharazad and Chaos Orb yet we still have Goblin Game. WTF?!?!?

[Lord Seth]

We banned Shaharazad and Chaos Orb yet we still have Goblin Game. WTF?!?!?I'm not sure how writing down a number is at all similar to a dexterity card or a card whose only actual usage is to stall out the clock.

Not to mention that Shahrazad and Chaos Orb could see actual play, whereas Goblin Game kinda sucks.

[mox toaster]

These days, Skullcrack has gotten no small amount of calls.

"I attack with my Grim Lavamancer."
"I block with True-Name."
"Ok, before damage, Crack you."
"Ok."
"Ok damage step, True-Name dies."
"JUDGE!"

I heard something like this from a table near me recently, except it went something like this:

"Before damage, Crack you."
"Can't." (some reason, like a Leyline)
"Okay then, Crack myself."
"Okay."
"Okay, go to damage step. TNN dies."
"WAIT DOES THAT WORK???"

[Offler]

A: I play. Attunement. I will retain priority after this spell resolves.
B: Ok.
A: I activate its ability.
B: Krosan grip in response
A: You have no legal target. "Return to hand" is part of the cost.

A: I play Krosan Grip on Counterbalance
B: I reveal "anything with CMC 3"
A: You can't. Split second closes stack.
B: Counterbalance has triggered ability. Split second prevent casting spells and activate abilities.

Similar story with Morph and Voidmage apprentice. :)

[Taldier]

I've seen Vision Charm elicit quite a few judge calls just because a lot of people dont really understand how phasing works. I once gave an amusing Stifle-nought deck to a friend to play in a tournament and he had a judge called on him every single round.

By the end the judge walked over, saw Vision Charm on the stack, and just said how it worked without even being asked the question haha.

[TsumiBand]

Player A: -some spell-
Player B: Counterspell
A: In response, Divert
B: ...k
A: I'll change the target of Counterspell to Divert.
B: JJJJGDE

[Offler]

Word of command

Usually guy who cast this cards starts like this. "Since only few people are familiar with this card I will explain how it works. I can play one card from you hand, for your mana..."

Due to very long and old wording judge is surely called :)

[sjmcc13]

Word of command

Usually guy who cast this cards starts like this. "Since only few people are familiar with this card I will explain how it works. I can play one card from you hand, for your mana..."

Due to very long and old wording judge is surely called :)

I always figured "It is like Mindslaver, only right now and I can only make you cast 1 Instant or sorcery, also I can only make you use mana abilities on lands that are used to pay for it.." should work.

[thecrav]

Word of command

Usually guy who cast this cards starts like this. "Since only few people are familiar with this card I will explain how it works. I can play one card from you hand, for your mana..."

Due to very long and old wording judge is surely called :)

I was at an event where someone played this and then called a judge to make sure they knew how it worked. I can understand not knowing every little interaction with your counterbalance or humility, but if you have to call a judge for the normal resolution of a spell in your deck, you really shouldn't be playing it.

[Sloshthedark]

What's the problem? Text on cards like Word of Command, Guardian Beast, Chains of Mephistopheles couldn't be any clearer... old wording may sound too unsystematic using common sense, sure, but the oracle text is actually way harder to comprehend then the original imo

[TsumiBand]

What's the problem? Text on cards like Word of Command, Guardian Beast, Chains of Mephistopheles couldn't be any clearer... old wording may sound too unsystematic using common sense, sure, but the oracle text is actually way harder to comprehend then the original imo

So, without using Gatherer or Oracle text -- tell me, which spell does Word of Command make uncounterable, exactly -- itself, or the opponent's spell?

[Darkenslight]

So, without using Gatherer or Oracle text -- tell me, which spell does Word of Command make uncounterable, exactly -- itself, or the opponent's spell?

The opponent's. I think it might need a rework to:

"Look at target opponent's hand. You may choose an instant or sorcery card among them and have that player cast that spell. Gain control of that spell, and it gains Split Second."

[iamajellydonut]

The opponent's. I think it might need a rework to:

It was a trick question. Both can be countered.

The "can't be countered" was kin to reminder text that you can't counter a spell after it has begun resolving.

[jamis]

It was a trick question. Both can be countered.

The "can't be countered" was kin to reminder text that you can't counter a spell after it has begun resolving.

Next un-set needs an enchantment with "Spells that have resolved cannot be countered by spells or abilities."

[TsumiBand]

It was a trick question. Both can be countered.

The "can't be countered" was kin to reminder text that you can't counter a spell after it has begun resolving.

Boom.

I'm all for a certain amount of nostalgia but really, standardizing the text on Magic cards was a necessary step in making the game actually playable in the long-term. I can grok hydra "heads" and putting cards "on" Cold Storage, sure. But, without codifying those actions in a meaningful way you just devolve the game into neckbeards sitting around re-interpreting the same rules over and over and over, differently.

[Sloshthedark]

Boom.

I'm all for a certain amount of nostalgia but really, standardizing the text on Magic cards was a necessary step in making the game actually playable in the long-term. I can grok hydra "heads" and putting cards "on" Cold Storage, sure. But, without codifying those actions in a meaningful way you just devolve the game into neckbeards sitting around re-interpreting the same rules over and over and over, differently.

...the common sense part... Standartization is fine but artificial retrospectively, I mean the old cards still do exactly what is written on them, only the standartization leads people to catch on words and phrazes, I woun't image someone could ask about Word of Command uncounterability... btw. I had to read Chain of Mephistophles oracle 3 times to understand what's written there and I know what the card does...

[TsumiBand]

...the common sense part... Standartization is fine but artificial retrospectively, I mean the old cards still do exactly what is written on them, only the standartization leads people to catch on words and phrazes, I woun't image someone could ask about Word of Command uncounterability... btw. I had to read Chain of Mephistophles oracle 3 times to understand what's written there and I know what the card does...

We just had one poster suggest it affects the opponent's spell. Common sense breaks down when 'this' is used twice on the same card to mean different things, and one of those things is secretly reminder text and not actual card text. Seems real bad.

I agree that there are some real stinkers in the modern wordings, don't get me wrong. Stalking Yeti is stupidly tautologous, and for what - so people don't abuse dealing 3 damage to an opponent's creature for the measly cost of :4::r::r::cool:* per turn? Christ on a cabbage! So bad! But on the whole, Magic cards are far easier to parse now. Especially given some of the giant-wall-of-text cards of old like freaking Takklemaggot and Ice Cauldron and friends, you can't honestly pull for all of the old stuff to be subject to common sense, right?



* supposed to be snow mana. Goddammit, there's no snow mana tag. FML

[HugSeal]

The opponent's. I think it might need a rework to:

"Look at target opponent's hand. You may choose an instant or sorcery card among them and have that player cast that spell. Gain control of that spell, and it gains Split Second."

That would miss the fringe case of cast say a Mistcutter Hydra for x=0 from his hand.

[Offler]

Well look at the gatherer for Word of command and check all errata in there :)

Such as "To "play a card" is to either cast a spell or to put a land onto the battlefield using the main phase special action."
You may Command your opponent to play a land (if they have not already done so this turn).

For common players now, its very unusual effect. I met a wide variety of misinterpretations such as:
- you cant respond to word of command
- you can choose only instants during the resolution
- when you use it on a creature spell, you take control of the creature

Regardless of old or new wording, usually opponents are not aware of how this effect exactly works.

Causes political chaos in EDH :)

[G_g]

This weekend I saw a judge get called due to chromatic sphere. I do know that it is a mana ability, but when do you draw a card? The sphere's ability was casted with a doomsday on the stack. The mana was added instantly to cast a brainstorm in response to doomsday but the player only drew the card after the pile of 5 cards resolved... How does this work exactly? Shouldn't the card be drawn before the doomsday resolved. effectively drawing one of the cards that was put on top with brainstorm? Or even before, since the player only had black, and he used the blue from the sphere to cast brainstorm... I'm confused, mana ability and draw a card at the same time mess up my understanding

[HammafistRoob]

Sometimes it's as simple as checking Gatherer for a good explanation.
8/1/2008: This is a mana ability,which means it can be activated as part of the process of casting a spell or activating another ability. If that happens you get the mana right away, but you don't look at the drawn card until you have finished casting that spell or activating that ability.

[TsumiBand]

Sometimes it's as simple as checking Gatherer for a good explanation.
8/1/2008: This is a mana ability,which means it can be activated as part of the process of casting a spell or activating another ability. If that happens you get the mana right away, but you don't look at the drawn card until you have finished casting that spell or activating that ability.

It's interesting how this is worded - the card is technically in your hand but you can't look at it? It doesn't say you don't draw the card; it says you don't look at the drawn card until the spell resolves (IF you used it during the window in priority where you can play mana abilities; most players in my experience seem to prefer tapping their mana before the spell is on the stack, so they ought to already have the card in hand most of the time if you're playing strict).

It's important I guess because someone might respond to like a Brainstorm or whatever with something that puts useless cards from your graveyard on top of your library, or exile your top X cards, or something stupid like that. So in that case you can safely say that the 'mystery card' is in hand, you just can't see it until the spell resolves. That's weird too though, because then you have an unknown card that you can put back for Brainstorm. O_o

It seems like this overcomplicates things, to keep the card hidden until post-resolution. Why could one not simply "completely draw the card"?

[Meekrab]

Sometimes it's as simple as checking Gatherer for a good explanation.
8/1/2008: This is a mana ability,which means it can be activated as part of the process of casting a spell or activating another ability. If that happens you get the mana right away, but you don't look at the drawn card until you have finished casting that spell or activating that ability.
This is not a good explanation of why the card was not drawn until after the Doomsday, since the mana ability was used to cast Brainstorm.

[iamajellydonut]

It's interesting how this is worded - the card is technically in your hand but you can't look at it? It doesn't say you don't draw the card; it says you don't look at the drawn card until the spell resolves (IF you used it during the window in priority where you can play mana abilities; most players in my experience seem to prefer tapping their mana before the spell is on the stack, so they ought to already have the card in hand most of the time if you're playing strict).

It's important I guess because someone might respond to like a Brainstorm or whatever with something that puts useless cards from your graveyard on top of your library, or exile your top X cards, or something stupid like that. So in that case you can safely say that the 'mystery card' is in hand, you just can't see it until the spell resolves. That's weird too though, because then you have an unknown card that you can put back for Brainstorm. O_o

There's a difference between "casting" and "drawing" a spell. You should draw the card when you activate the mana ability and not be able to look at it immediately as you said, but you still look at the card after you've finished casting whatever. So, if I'm reading this all right, in terms of just casting and resolving a simple Brainstorm, it should go (in extreme layman's terms)...

Brainstorm.
Use Chromatic Sphere for mana to cast Brainstorm and "draw" a card.
Brainstorm is cast.
Look at the card.
Priority and shit.
Brainstorm resolves.

Ethics of not looking at the card aside, the most application I can see this hidden information having is say you have a really awkward set of lands and you want to cast a Grey Ogre, but you're having a hard time deciding exactly how you want to pay for it. By keeping the drawn card "hidden", you're prevented from being able to activate Chromatic Sphere for "mana" first and using the information gained to make a better choice with your remaining mana.

[sjmcc13]

This is not a good explanation of why the card was not drawn until after the Doomsday, since the mana ability was used to cast Brainstorm. Unless you are missing some other cards that were in play that should not have happened. You can only put doomsday on an empty stack (unless you have a card like Vedalken Orrery to give it flash) in order for the draw to be after doomsday, you need for there to be a draw trigger under doomsday, which would require that the draw trigger be there when doomsday goes on the stack, which would prevent you from casting it.

Once Doomsday is on the stack, any effect that is played/triggered afterwards has to resolve BEFORE doomsday.

This reeks of player cheating to me. If the judge OKed drawing after doomsday then they are either incompetent, have never studied the basics of the game (I keep hearing people claim that the stack is hard to understand when it is dirt simple, and has a very easy method of visualizing it to explain to new players), or in collusion with the player.

[TsumiBand]

There's a difference between "casting" and "drawing" a spell. You should draw the card when you activate the mana ability and not be able to look at it immediately as you said, but you still look at the card after you've finished casting whatever. So, if I'm reading this all right, in terms of just casting and resolving a simple Brainstorm, it should go (in extreme layman's terms)...

Brainstorm.
Use Chromatic Sphere for mana to cast Brainstorm and "draw" a card.
Brainstorm is cast.
Look at the card.
Priority and shit.
Brainstorm resolves.

Ethics of not looking at the card aside, the most application I can see this hidden information having is say you have a really awkward set of lands and you want to cast a Grey Ogre, but you're having a hard time deciding exactly how you want to pay for it. By keeping the drawn card "hidden", you're prevented from being able to activate Chromatic Sphere for "mana" first and using the information gained to make a better choice with your remaining mana.
Ah durp, you're right. My reading comprehension is out the window, I don't sleep much lately, something something 2 month old baby something.

[G_g]

So, chromatic star is a mess in terms of rulings.

Let's say i have no library, BBB floating, chromatic star in play and a Lab Maniac. I announce lab maniac, crack the chromatic star to get blue mana when it is time to pay costs for lab maniac. Do I win or lose? Am I drawing the card after the maniac resolved therefore getting a win, or after and losing? If I am winning, can the opponent use decay or swords to plowshares to kill the maniac? Since the card is being drawn as it resolves, it should get me a win?? I am not certain, this is confusing. I have recently read this article, that just makes it more awkward: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/do-you-really-know-how-to-cast-spells/
I have always paid the mana cost as I announce the spell (tap my lands, then show the card. declare targets etc etc). I do know that I am just adding that mana to the pool and using it when appropriate, but does this mean if i have R floating, I can cast tendrils of agony with a LED on the table? Like, announce Tendrils, declare target bla bla bla, and then it's time to pay my tendrils, crack LED for BBB and use those to pay tendrils? I am guessing 99% of the players would call a judge or a witch hunt on me if I can do that.

I have done an exam do be a judge like 8 years ago, and was denied due to being 13 or so years old, despite having scored high enough xD. 7 years without touching magic and all this seems confusing... I might just print the whole thing again and read it

[Quasim0ff]

So, chromatic star is a mess in terms of rulings.

Let's say i have no library, BBB floating, chromatic star in play and a Lab Maniac. I announce lab maniac, crack the chromatic star to get blue mana when it is time to pay costs for lab maniac. Do I win or lose? Am I drawing the card after the maniac resolved therefore getting a win, or after and losing? If I am winning, can the opponent use decay or swords to plowshares to kill the maniac? Since the card is being drawn as it resolves, it should get me a win?? I am not certain, this is confusing. I have recently read this article, that just makes it more awkward: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/do-you-really-know-how-to-cast-spells/
I have always paid the mana cost as I announce the spell (tap my lands, then show the card. declare targets etc etc). I do know that I am just adding that mana to the pool and using it when appropriate, but does this mean if i have R floating, I can cast tendrils of agony with a LED on the table? Like, announce Tendrils, declare target bla bla bla, and then it's time to pay my tendrils, crack LED for BBB and use those to pay tendrils? I am guessing 99% of the players would call a judge or a witch hunt on me if I can do that.

I have done an exam do be a judge like 8 years ago, and was denied due to being 13 or so years old, despite having scored high enough xD. 7 years without touching magic and all this seems confusing... I might just print the whole thing again and read it
You declare your spell, declare targets etc. Then you pay the cost, and after cost is paid you put the card on the stack.
It USED to work like that, thus making LED an actual black lotus for the card you wanted to pay.

To the Chromatic star question - No. As the ability resolves, it is taken from the stack and thus put into the graveyard, this giving you no ability to cast Lab Man.

[Echelon]

Edit: Quasimoff was just ahead of me!

[G_g]

There's a difference between "casting" and "drawing" a spell. You should draw the card when you activate the mana ability and not be able to look at it immediately as you said, but you still look at the card after you've finished casting whatever. So, if I'm reading this all right, in terms of just casting and resolving a simple Brainstorm, it should go (in extreme layman's terms)...

Brainstorm.
Use Chromatic Sphere for mana to cast Brainstorm and "draw" a card.
Brainstorm is cast.
Look at the card.
Priority and shit.
Brainstorm resolves.



What is the difference between what is above and just:

Use Chromatic Sphere for mana to cast Brainstorm and draw a card.
Brainstorm is cast.

Is it just for me not to be able to use the drawn card before the brainstorm is cast? Even if I drew that card and it was an isntant, could I even use it before the brainstorm?

I got the full rules, and will read them later this week, I hope that clears it for me.

I remember using the LED as a black lotus for a single spell, maybe that is how it was a long time ago

[Bed Decks Palyer]

LED has a timing restriction, that's why it doesn't work like BL anymore.

[iamajellydonut]

LED has a timing restriction, that's why it doesn't work like BL anymore.

Sarnath'd.

"Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only any time you could cast an instant."

[iamajellydonut]

So, chromatic star is a mess in terms of rulings.

Let's say i have no library, BBB floating, chromatic star in play and a Lab Maniac. I announce lab maniac, crack the chromatic star to get blue mana when it is time to pay costs for lab maniac. Do I win or lose? Am I drawing the card after the maniac resolved therefore getting a win, or after and losing? If I am winning, can the opponent use decay or swords to plowshares to kill the maniac? Since the card is being drawn as it resolves, it should get me a win??

Assuming I actually got something right for once, you would still lose the game. You draw the card when you cast Laboratory Maniac. Laboratory Maniac would not be on the battlefield as you draw the card, thus you would lose the game like you usually would if you drew a card from an empty library.

Also, to answer your other question, Laboratory Maniac creates a replacement effect. Not a trigger or anything else that might be relevant. So, if he dies before the card is drawn, once you do try to draw the card you would lose the game as normal.


Edit: I'm wondering... If you Brainstormed with a Laboratory Maniac on the battlefield, would you win the game during the Brainstorm or after it's finished resolving?

[Darkenslight]

Assuming I actually got something right for once, you would still lose the game. You draw the card when you cast Laboratory Maniac. Laboratory Maniac would not be on the battlefield as you draw the card, thus you would lose the game like you usually would if you drew a card from an empty library.

Also, to answer your other question, Laboratory Maniac creates a replacement effect. Not a trigger or anything else that might be relevant. So, if he dies before the card is drawn, once you do try to draw the card you would lose the game as normal.


Edit: I'm wondering... If you Brainstormed with a Laboratory Maniac on the battlefield, would you win the game during the Brainstorm or after it's finished resolving?

SBAs happen after the resolution, so you wouild win after resolving.

[rufus]

SBAs happen after the resolution, so you wouild win after resolving.

True, but Laboratory Maniac replaces the card draw, not the game loss, so the win should happen during resolution. So, for example, drawing out with Cruel Bargain while going to 0 life should still win the game.

[TsumiBand]

True, but Laboratory Maniac replaces the card draw, not the game loss, so the win should happen during resolution. So, for example, drawing out with Cruel Bargain while going to 0 life should still win the game.
Right, but it's still a SBA.

Like, if a Lightning Bolt reduces your life to 0, you can't actually lose until the spell resolves and SBEs are checked, right? I'm *pretty* sure winning/losing can only actually occur as state-based actions.

Unless I'm mistaken it's similar to effects during the untap step. Even though the card should trump the rules, the rules specifically state that if anything would happen during untap, it actually happens during upkeep before 'beginning of upkeep' triggers. Something like that anyway. Things like Awakening/Prophet of Kruphix do this.

EDIT -- naaah, I'm wrong. The game immediately ends when a player wins, and an effect can cause that to be true. Ergo one can win with the 'winning effect' still technically on the stack, which matters because of the whole '0 cards vs. 0 life' thing. You can only lose to an SBA when they're checked, which is NOT during the resolution of an object on the stack. Seems good!

[AggroControl]

Stifle creates a lot of judge calls. Probably more than any other card I've played or played against.

Ex. Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage on the board. Vampire Hexmage is sacrificed to remove all counters from Dark Depths. Opponent casts Stifle to prevent Marit Lage from entering play after all counters are removed from Dark Depths. State-based trigger just repeats and Marit Lage comes into play. The only way to use Stifle to stop the play is to Stifle the Vampire Hexmage when it is activated to remove the counters. The Vampire Hexmage does get sacrificed, as a cost of the activation, and then you Stifle the trigger to remove all counters from Dark Depths on the stack.

The confusion arises from the Dark Depths wording "sacrifice it and if you do put Marit Lage into play." Just reading that would make anybody think that you sacrifice Dark Depths as a cost of the ability when in fact it is an integral part of the ability. You sacrifice Dark Depths and then put Marit Lage into play. The only thing you can Stifle once the Hexmage is gone is the Dark Depths sacrifice itself and as a state-based effect it just repeats again as soon as it is removed from the stack.

Judge!

[apple713]

Stifle creates a lot of judge calls. Probably more than any other card I've played or played against.

Ex. Dark Depths and Vampire Hexmage on the board. Vampire Hexmage is sacrificed to remove all counters from Dark Depths. Opponent casts Stifle to prevent Marit Lage from entering play after all counters are removed from Dark Depths. State-based trigger just repeats and Marit Lage comes into play. The only way to use Stifle to stop the play is to Stifle the Vampire Hexmage when it is activated to remove the counters. The Vampire Hexmage does get sacrificed, as a cost of the activation, and then you Stifle the trigger to remove all counters from Dark Depths on the stack.

The confusion arises from the Dark Depths wording "sacrifice it and if you do put Marit Lage into play." Just reading that would make anybody think that you sacrifice Dark Depths as a cost of the ability when in fact it is an integral part of the ability. You sacrifice Dark Depths and then put Marit Lage into play. The only thing you can Stifle once the Hexmage is gone is the Dark Depths sacrifice itself and as a state-based effect it just repeats again as soon as it is removed from the stack.

Judge!

I was suprised this hadent been mentioned earlier. The wording seems clear to the opponent when they read the card but when it doesnt work out how they expected they arnt too happy.

Painter servant and humility have an interesting interaction, painter servant still changes colores. Also rip and progenitus, iirc active player determines resolution of 2 replacement effects replacing the same action.

Ive noticed judges get called a lot because players want cards to work favorably for whatever situation they are in instead of reading the card.

[thecrav]

Ive noticed judges get called a lot because players want cards to work favorably for whatever situation they are in instead of reading the card.

Yup. I don't have anything to add, but god dang, this is such a fact.

[sjmcc13]

The confusion arises from the Dark Depths wording "sacrifice it and if you do put Marit Lage into play." Just reading that would make anybody think that you sacrifice Dark Depths as a cost of the ability when in fact it is an integral part of the ability. No is does not. I never made that mistake.
There is a standard format to how costs and effects are handled which is not present here, The entire ability reads as 1 triggered ability, and the "If you do" clause should make it even cleared that this is all part of the same triggered ability.

The only ways to get confused are to not understand how triggers work, or not read the card. The card is not causing any misunderstandings, players not reading the whole card are.

[apple713]

No is does not. I never made that mistake.
There is a standard format to how costs and effects are handled which is not present here, The entire ability reads as 1 triggered ability, and the "If you do" clause should make it even cleared that this is all part of the same triggered ability.

The only ways to get confused are to not understand how triggers work, or not read the card. The card is not causing any misunderstandings, players not reading the whole card are.

You are not representitive of the player base. I play depths and this is a commonly called question. It works in a unique way unlike other cards that have similar wording. State based triggers in general are also not intuitive to the playerbase, probably because they dont come up often.

[TsumiBand]

What strange hubris.

There are a multitude of situations where even RTFC doesn't go far enough to explain an in-game effect. Cloudshift on a Hellspark Elemental, for example - unless you already know that Unearth's Oracle text says "Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery." then you won't necessarily understand why the Elemental isn't exiled permanently, either during Cloudshift's resolution or at end of turn when it's time to sacrifice it.

In fact I bet if you ask most players which zone a Stifled Madness trigger leaves the discarded card in, many of them will not only state the wrong zone, but be surprised to know you can actually do it. The card doesn't even use "When/Whenever/At" to signify there's a triggered ability, much less walk the player through the steps required to make Madness even work.

IOW it isn't even right to assume that the cards always mean what they say, because sometimes their text is truncated to explain their function under "99% of gameplay" and forgive the 1% where shenanigans occur.

Totes relevant -- I wish Madness were still a deck so I could counter Circular Logic with Pull from Eternity, but alas, alack.