RUG Dack Stax

[HammerAndSickled]

Crazy lands/Stax/walkers hybrid deck.

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
4 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
2 Intuition
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Zuran Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Oblivion Stone

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins

Basically, you're ramping out Chalice 1, Trinisphere, Crucible Wastelock or Bridge with the Sol lands and Mox Diamonds. Diamonds also let you play accelerated walkers. Dack's card disadvantage is mitigated with Loam and Fires, Fires is decent if you ever get to ultimate, and he lets you trade up your shitty redundant cards late. Jace is jace, and turn 1 Sphere into turn 2 Jace is busted as all hell. High land count enables loam and diamond and you can just trade then in to Dack later. PFires is great at protecting your walkers.

Things I wanted to try but couldn't fit:
Maze of Ith, probably x3
Tolaria West and a land toolbox with Bog, Karakas, Chasm, etc
More fetches for loam
Cycling lands
Basics
Another walker that can actually win for you, but those all require a splash
Another accelerant, except Chrome Mox is so bad in this deck

[theMonster]

This list looks sweet. I don't think you need all four Life from the Loams, as you are playing Intuition to tutor for it. Same goes for Punishing Fire. With three maindeck Ensnaring Bridges, I don't know if Maze of Ith is necessary. Perhaps you could play one man-land as an alternate win condition: Faerie Conclave, Mishra's Factory or something? Raging Ravine won't stay under the Bridge, unfortunately, and is a little pricy to activate. Also, I suspect Oblivion Stone is too slow. You're probably better off with a second Engineered Explosives. And as far as additional planeswalkers, what about Ral Zarek? He's on color, is removal, can untap your lands to pay for your Loams and Fire recursion and can get you extra turns to do all that again.

So I'd propose something like this:

-2 Life from the Loam
-1 Punishing Fire
-1 Oblivion Stone
-1 Wasteland

+1 Intuition
+1 Ral Zarek
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Faerie Conclave
+1 City of Traitors

Zero testing, and I could be totally wrong - just throwing ideas out there.

Let me know what you think. Sweet brew!

[HammerAndSickled]

Yeah, the list is obviously in its infancy, since I came up with the idea super late and have done zero testing. A lot of the choices are because I've been playing Lands as my main deck for years, so the intuition piles, tutor targets, and loam interactions are just ingrained into my head :P

I like the reasoning for cutting one fire and one loam, and I agree that in that case the number of intuitions needs to go up. But in a sense it seems like cutting more copies for intuition just means that more of the time I'll have to waste a turn intuitioning for my relevant spell, and if it gets countered or wasteland keeps me off three mana then that really sucks. I think I'll move to 3 Loam, 3 Fire, 3 Intuition and have a free slot.

A manland seems sweet as well, since Chalice turns off pretty much all removal that hits it. Coming into play tapped is rough though. If you want to play one, Conclave is probably the best bet since it doesn't get walled by TNN.

The main purpose of the O-Stone is to hit opposing walkers. EE is rough because while we can safely set it at 1 or 2 without hurting any of our stuff, 3 is dangerous because of Sphere and Bridge, and 3 or 4 hits our walkers too. 4 is also impossible without a Mox. That being said, pFire deals with walkers pretty well on its own if it's not disrupted, so maybe the stone isn't needed.

A third Planeswalker could be the new M15 Nissa. Constant threats that synergizes with Loam and if you play a taiga or two it can go nuts with the untap.

[theMonster]

Intuition is always a must-counter, seeing as any deck that plays it is doing it to assemble something grossly unfair. So sucking up permission, in my mind, would allow your planeswalkers to resolve more frequently. Plus, with Trinisphere a feature of the deck, everything's gonna cost 3 anyways, haha. Three feels like the right number.

Faerie Conclave also taps for :u:, which isn't irrelevant. I like that it can sneak under Ensnaring Bridge pretty often. Evading True-Name Nemesis is a good point, too. As far as the ETB tapped aspect of it, I see it more as a land to pitch to Mox Diamond and get back later when you're ready to win. Another option, if you cut back on the Bridge count (or replace it with, like, Propaganda - enchantment removal is less prevalent, and tying up the mana with resolved Trinisphere and your own Wastelands might be pretty good), could be a Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage plan.

Good point about Engineered Explosives. Putting a fate counter on one of your permanents, then blowing everything up seems like it would take, on average, three turns, though. That's a lot. Is there a better solution out there? What about just running maindeck Pithing Needle or something? Kinda awkward with a resolved Chalice of the Void for 1, but it might be worth the risk.

The new Nissa looks sweet, but is making 4/4s gonna conflict too often with Ensnaring Bridge? I guess it depends on play style. If you go with Propaganda instead of Bridge, this would be excellent.

I'm really curious to see how this archetype performs. Let me know if you come up with any new tech!

[Zupponn]

I feel that you could have some real Blood Moon issues.

[theMonster]

I feel that you could have some real Blood Moon issues.

Zupponn, we run four Mox Diamonds, which mitigates our vulnerability to Blood Moon and Back to Basics. Perhaps we could add a basic Island by cutting one of the duals: Tropical Island? The only cards we currently need :g: for are Life from the Loam and probably sideboard tech like Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudge. Grove of the Burnwillows produces :g:, so I think we could get away with six green sources (in addition to six fetchlands that can find Trops) plus four Moxes. Only one way to find out, though; gotta test.

[wcm8]

Liquimetal Coating + Dack seems like an interesting way to take advantage of his ability. Not sure it'd be strong/consistent enough to build around completely, but if you are running 4 of him to begin with, a slot or two couldn't hurt too much right?

[theMonster]

Liquimetal Coating + Dack seems like an interesting way to take advantage of his ability. Not sure it'd be strong/consistent enough to build around completely, but if you are running 4 of him to begin with, a slot or two couldn't hurt too much right?

wcm8, let's live the dream! There's probably room for one, and, at the very least, it could be a sideboard card.

So how 'bout this for a list so far?


4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island

1 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ral Zarek

4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosive
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge

2 Life from the Loam
3 Punishing Fire
3 Intuition


Phyrexian Revoker could become Pithing Needle. I just worry about being able to cast it alongside Chalice of the Void. I like Revoker because it gets around Chalice for 1 and can attack, as this list is not exactly replete with win conditions.

Liquimetal Coating might actually be really good, as we can Intuition for a pile like Coating, Academy Ruins and Life from the Loam. It also makes a sideboard card like Ancient Grudge more powerful if, say, we can't find Dack Fayden. An instant-speed Vindicate with flashback? Sign me up.

I have no idea if Ral Zarek is good for this list - never played with him before. Feel free to propose other win conditions alongside Dack and Jace, all ears here.

This deck is REALLY durdly. So what do y'all think about a Dark Depths/Thespian's Stage plan in the sideboard, especially for matchups whereEnsnaring Bridge is bad? I'm curious to hear people's ideas for other sideboard cards. I'm considering these:

Ancient Grudge/Krosan Grip
more Revokers/Needles
Vendilion Cliques
one Propaganda as insurance against Empty the Warrens and other swarm decks
graveyard hate of choice - probably Tormod's Crypt because we could recur it with Academy Ruins
Lodestone Golem
Underground Sea and a couple Abrupt Decays(?)

I guess we can't really build a sideboard until we play the list first.

Major question I have: how do we compete against tempo decks when we're on the draw in game 1? Should we, say, cut a Dack for a card like Fire // Ice?

No testing, as I still have to pick up a few of the pricier pieces (read: two Volcanic Islands and one Tropical Island - ugh), but hopefully someone can get some testing in with this archetype and report back. Keep the ideas comin'!

[Zupponn]

It would be really cool if you could fit Goblin Welder in here somewhere, but he probably doesn't fit with this strategy.

[theMonster]

It would be really cool if you could fit Goblin Welder in here somewhere, but he probably doesn't fit with this strategy.

Zupponn, I don't think Goblin Welder could work in the maindeck because I don't think I can find room for Cavern of Souls - take it from a former MUD player, Chalice of the Void + Welder is REALLY awkward; however, perhaps it could be a sideboard strategy in matchups where Chalice is bad, though I worry that it would be less effective because savvy opponents would bring in graveyard hate against us (although the creature removal would come out). If we decide Welder is worth trying, what would we reanimate, and for which matchups would we play it? First instincts say Wurmcoil Engine and Sundering Titan. (Titan + Trinisphere is disgusting.)

Thoughts?

[theMonster]

In the Tezzerator thread, some users are toying with a miser's Keranos, God of Storms. This might be a good win condition alongside our planeswalkers. Any thoughts or experience with this card? It seems powerful and tough to deal with.

[Memories of the Time]

This is my version of Dack-Welder RUG deck with a splash for Black: Very funny and explosive, still 4c are too many but without Strix welder (and decks itself) loses basic utility/solidity/fluency

4 Goblin Welder
4 Baleful Strix
2 Intuition
1 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
2 Trinket Mage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Mindslaver
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Tropical Island
1 Life from the Loam
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Punishing Fire
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Badlands
3 Force of Will
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Dack Fayden

SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

[theMonster]

Memories of the Time, there are some cool interactions in your list, notably the Strix/Welder shenanigans and the Trinket Mage package (which, I think if you could find room for it, should include a maindeck Pithing Needle). Some thoughts:

- Can you consistently cast your Force of Wills with 18 blue cards in the maindeck?
- What's your plan against graveyard hate? Have you considered some number of Transmute Artifacts in the 75? That might be a good plan B to get your biguns into play. Either that or maybe some ramp in the sideboard like a couple Grim Monoliths or something(?). Honestly unsure, was wondering if you had thoughts.
- I understand the tricks with Goblin Welder and Sensei's Divining Top, but do you miss Brainstorm at all? Genuinely curious, as I've never played your list.
- How 'bout a Notion Thief somewhere? With Thief in play, +1 Dack Fayden, targeting the opponent. It's gotta be awesome.
- And how unbelievably sweet does it feel to Mindslaver lock somebody? I *must* know! (And how consistently can you execute it?)

[lithiux]

A brew Karsten Cotter posted reminded me of that 4c list. The Welder/Strix combo is pretty spicy, but there are just a lot of things going on in this (and his) lists.

link to the article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28874_Eternal-Europe-You-Choose-The-Brew-Episode-II.html)

Is it possible to put Duck Faygo in an old Lands shell? Grabbing our bombs with Intuition seems pretty nice, doubly so if we don't care too much about 2 cards hitting the bin.

[theMonster]

A brew Karsten Cotter posted reminded me of that 4c list. The Welder/Strix combo is pretty spicy, but there are just a lot of things going on in this (and his) lists.

link to the article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28874_Eternal-Europe-You-Choose-The-Brew-Episode-II.html)

Is it possible to put Duck Faygo in an old Lands shell? Grabbing our bombs with Intuition seems pretty nice, doubly so if we don't care too much about 2 cards hitting the bin.

Lithiux, I saw Cotter's Grixis Thopter list last night and think it has some potential. To me it comes down to whether having access to Brainstorm and Goblin Welder trickery is better or worse than shutting off :1:-drops with Tezzerator's traditional four-of Chalice of the Void and accompanying artifact acceleration to power out fast planeswalkers. No idea what the answer is, but I'd love to find out.

As far as a Lands shell, I think that could definitely work. I envision Intuition-ing for Dark Depths combo alongside Chalice and Force of Will. Lots of ways we can go. Someone's just gotta figure out the best way.

There's also a Young Pyromancer/Cabal Therapy Dack list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28187-URBG-PyroLoam).

[Memories of the Time]

Lots of ways we can go. Someone's just gotta figure out the best way.


^This.
I've tried many build listed in that article (with different choice, obv): i'm fucking in love with Control-Combo deck. The list i've posted above is just one of the man i have in a folder called "Welder/bomberman" on Cocka :tongue:
I'd like Notion Thief idea (too little tested by me, i admit), yes Brainstorm would be an auto-include (but i'm not able to find the slots, still) with Loam and all the deck, this version sucks from RIP (Not so much played, in my italian meta) but depends on who is playing it (D&T, miracle, Patriot?).

Mindslaver soft-lock (not the total lock with ruins) is one of the best thing that you can experiment in Magic, i think =D had played it many times, especially against DeathRite.deck (and it's a perfect closer against combo!)

[mox toaster]

I don't play Loam decks myself so correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it pretty crucial to have some kind of instant-speed draw (e.g. cycle lands) to save your Loams from being eaten by DRS, Surgicals, and other hate cards?

I would also cut the Liquimetal Coating. It doesn't do anything by itself to control the board (unlike Ensnaring Bridge); it really only works with Dack. In its place I like Tangle Wire, which works extremely well with mainboard Chalice (just don't forget that Trinisphere is "active" only while untapped).

[klaus]

Just my two Pence:

4 Mox Diamond ---------- cool
4 Chalice of the Void ---------- cool
4 Life from the Loam ---------- cool, but too many --> -1
4 Punishing Fire -------------- cool
4 Dack Fayden ---------------- cool
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor -------- cool
3 Ensnaring Bridge ----------------- cool but not sure if enough creature hate
3 Trinisphere ---------------------- cool, but not sure if SB material
2 Intuition ------------------------- cool, but maybe too neat due to being slow
1 Engineered Explosives ------------ very cool - needs more, like +2 works nicely with A. Ruins too
1 Zuran Orb ----------------------- definitely no MD material, maybe not even SB
1 Crucible of Worlds ------------ overkill with Loam
1 Oblivion Stone ----------------- not sufficiently one-sided

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland ----------- not cool. Too little pressure to go the mana denial route: -4
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins

Here's what I'd go with:
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Life from the Loam
4 Punishing Fire
4 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
1 Intuition
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Burning Wish

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Academy Ruins

SB:
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pyroclasm
4 more wishtargets
1 Trinisphere
1 Krosan Grip
1 Keranos
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt

EDITHA:
overall I think this deck will struggle against both Aggro (E. Bridge & PF don't suffice) & Combo: Chalice & Trini don't suffice. So that definitely calls for more tweaking.