[Deck]Skilled Maniac [Archive]

Smea.gol.lum

07-06-2014, 07:55 PM

Skilled Maniac

Skilled Maniac is a highly synergistic blue combo deck that wins via the Laboratory Maniac + Thought Lash combo or via Skilled Borrower with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on top of the library.
It is very resilient as it has a lot of digging power, a very good protection suit and most of its combo pieces are not dead on their own.

The current deck list as of 7/1/2014:

4 Thought Lash
4 Long-Term Plans
4 Skill Borrower
3 Laboratory Maniac
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Griselbrand
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
7 Island
4 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
3 Culling Scales
3 Defense Grid
3 Counterbalance
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Devastation Tide
1 Misdirection
1 Psychic Theft

Ways to Victory:

Plan A: Thought Lash + Laboratory Maniac: Mill your whole library with Lash and win in your draw step or with Brainstorm/Ponder/Gitaxian Probe/ Sensei's Divning Top

Plan B: Skill Borrower + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on top of the library: Make an arbitrary number of tokens at the opponents end step and win with your next attack

Plan C: Skill Borrower + Griselbrand on top of your library: draw 7 or 14 cards and go for Plan A/B afterwards

Card Choices:

Maindeck:

4 Thought Lash: the deck is the perfect home for this card and I am always happy to see it in my opening grip.
In contrast to many other cards that are part of a combo, it 's not dead on its own. In fact, it buys several turns against fair decks and some unfair decks (e.g. Infect) to establish one of the combos.
Its applications:
1) Thought Lash + Laboratory Maniac: Plan A
2) Thought Lash + Skill Borrower: lets you find any card of your deck and sets up a Kiki-Borrower
3) turns Sensei's Divining Top into a digging machine
4) turns Long-Term Plans into a pseudo Vampiric Tutor

3 Laboratory Maniac: it is the only combo piece (in addition to the obvious Kiki-Jiki and Griselbrand) that is kind of dead alone. You definately want to draw a Maniac during the game, but you don't want to have it in your opening seven most of the time. Considering all the cantrips that can reliably find it and the fact that it pitches to FoW and Misdirection, 3 seems to be the right number.

4 Skill Borrower: in this shell it can unfold its full potential. An unanswered Skill Borrower is a huge threat. With the help of cantrips, Thought Lash and Long Term Plans it can win games out of nowhere.
Moreover, it helps to clear the way for Laboratory Maniac as it is a magnet for creature removal.

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: part of Plan B

1 Griselbrand: part of Plan C

4 Long-Term Plans: tutor for every card of your deck that spells Short Term Plans with the help of Ponder/SDT/Brainstorm/Gitaxian Probe/Thought Lash and can set up a Grisel- or Kiki-Borrower

4 Brainstorm: In this deck its power level rises to a new dimension.
In addition to its well-known uses it can set up a Grisel-Borrower on turn 1 and acts as instant speed protection once the Lab/Lash combo is assembled.

4 Sensei's Divining Top: outstandingly good in this deck:
1) SDT+ Thought Lash (s.o.)
2) SDT + Skill Borrower: blanks creature removal as soon as Borrower loses summoning sickness
3) acts as uncounterable (!) instant speed protection once the Lab/Lash combo is assembled
4) enables the Top/CB soft lock out of the sideboard
5) enables the Top/Culling Scales soft lock out of the sideboard
6) enables Miracle cards out of the sideboard

3 Gitaxian Probe: a big help for the right sequence of your spells, lets you adapt your game plan to the opponents hand, checks if the coast is clear for Grisel-/Kiki-Borrower and the all-in-ish Lab/Lash combo, gets cards faster into your hand that were tutored up with Long Term Plans and enables T3 kills (T2 LabMan, T3 Lash, Probe)

4 Ponder: digs for combo pieces, lands and protection, strengthens the resiliency of the deck

4 Force of Will: self-explanatory

3 Misdirection: pushes through combo pieces and protects Skill Borrower and Maniac from removal

2 Spell Pierce: deals with troublesome cards like Jitte, Liliana, Needle and co.

4 City of Traitors, 2 Ancient Tomb: help to power out Skill Borrower, LabMan, Long Term Plans and Thought Lash, enable much faster kills

7 blue fetchlands: shuffle Brainstorm-, Ponder- and SDT-garbage away, randomly turn Borrower into a monster

Cards to consider for the sideboard:

Culling Scales: good against hatebears, Counterbalance and Liliana, soft lock with SDT (target SDT, flip it in response so that Culling Scales' effect fizzles: in this way Culling Scales stays permanently in play), an early Culling Scales against decks like Death n Taxes often wins you the game

Defense Grid: comes in against counterspell heavy decks like RUG and Miracles

Counterbalance: comes in against combo decks and those with a lot of 1-drops

Grafdigger's Cage: buys time against the faster graveyard decks

Devastation Tide: catch-all answer against permanents

How to play the deck:

Against fair decks resolving Thought Lash is key to success as it gives you plenty of time to find what you need. Many top tier decks don't have a preboard answer to it (Abrupt Decay can't hit it).

One of the biggest strengths of the deck is that it's so flexible and that it can attack from two different angles.
Once you know against which deck you play or have checked the opponents hand with Gitaxian Probe, your can decide which route fits best.
Against decks without creature removal it is safe to play Skill Borrower or Lab Man on turn 2/3 and try to find the rest of the combo during the next turns whereas against fair decks it is often better to wait for Long Term Plans or Thought Lash rather than play them blindly.
Corner cases are hands with Skill Borrower, LabMan and Thought Lash where Skill Borrower can be used as a measure to decoy creature removal.

In the case of Long-Term Plans in your opening hand it is sometimes correct to not probe your opponent right away and wait.

Be careful with your fetchlands. In scenarios involving Brainstorm and Kiki-Jiki/ Griselbrand (with enough life) or Long Term Plans in your hand you have to crack your fetchlands before playing Brainstorm/Long Term Plans.

The decks worst enemies are Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker as all of the decks combos use activated abilities. It can be very problematic when Thought Lash is shut down, so there should be some cards in your sideboard addressing this issue.

Smea.gol.lum

07-06-2014, 07:56 PM

Matchups: still to come

Smea.gol.lum

07-06-2014, 08:00 PM

This weekend I took the deck to a Legacy tournament in Prague (149 participants).
I went 5-3, but I could have done much better. I was out of practice and made unexplainable play mistakes that cost me games.
The deck felt really powerful though and I am convinced that competent pilots can put up good results with it.

Notable mis-/plays:

Round 2 against Wizards:
My opponent has 3 Cursecatchers, 1 Silvergrill Adept and a Mutavault in play and one unknown card in his hand. He attacks me with everything while I am at 12 life, have three islands, 1 Ancient Tomb, a Skill Borrower and a SDT in play and Long-Term Plans with FOW backup in hand.
I block 1 Cursecatcher and drop to 6. At the end of turn I tutor up Kiki-Jiki and put it on top of my library with SDT. When I tap Skill Borrower to copy it, he plays his last card in hand: Vapor Snag. I FOW without thinking because in my mind I can pay for the Cursecatchers but I can 't cause I used mana for SDT.
The result: I drop to two, can only play one blocker next turn, and am attacked exactly for lethal by his Mutavault and Adept.
I should have just tutored up and dropped Thought Lash and digged for Maniac with SDT with plenty of turns.

Round 7 against U/W Miracles:
I have got Lab Man, S.Borrower and T.Lash in play. He taps out for Terminus. In response I remove cards from my library until SDT is on top. I tap S.Borrower to draw a card and remove the rest of my library in response for the win.

In round 5 against Death n Taxes i played Long-Term Plans and realized that I had just wasted the card because I had to remove cards with Thought Lash to prevent damage.
In most of the cases it is best to play LTP at the end of turn.

The sideboard is a mess because I decided two days before the event to participate in it, so that there is a lot of space to improve it.

Culling Scales was really good against Death n Taxes and can easily lock them out of the game when combined with SDT.

.Ix

07-06-2014, 11:28 PM

This deck is incredible! So much jank and fun in a sweet monoblue package of combo goodness! I love it!

Slag

07-07-2014, 02:17 AM

This is a very creative concept. If you put in a couple of Winding Canyons, you can flash Lab Maniac in at the end of turn, sacrifice your Thought Lash during your upkeep, and win during your draw step.

catmint

07-07-2014, 08:23 AM

Sweet!
Looking forward to the matchup analysis and hope this will be at least somehow playable.

First thoughts:

Sweepers seem necessary thinking about elves and dnt as problemeatic matchups. I assume culling scales will often enough be too little too late. Have you thought about light splashes for the SB (pyroclasm)? Ratchet Bomb might be another option.

The Sol land split might also not be optimal. Opening with Top+Activate is a powerful play but not really sexy with City of Traitors.

Finding the right acceleration is challenging due to the deck being mana and color hungry and rather slow so damage is an issue. One shots like petals might not be good as you need a more permanent acceleration.

Did you test other mana artefacts? - they also have a nice synergy with skill borrower. Grim Monolith comes to mind but the Talismans might be an alternative to support a splash or Mind Stone to cycle or activate the combo later on. Also Turn 2 thought lash seems nice...

Other thoughts are if not other powerful control elements (ensnaring bridge, back to basics, blood moon) might be a nice addition in the 75 to buy time/bait counters.

Overall my feeling is that the deck is a little bit too clunky. Is long term plans really that good? Sneak plays only 2 intuition for a reason. Assuming you have access to BS, Ponder or top 80% of the time LT Plans is still card disadvantage and costs 2 more than Enlightened Tutor, Worldy Tutor which are also not widely played.

Namida

07-07-2014, 08:38 AM

Is there any room for Chromatic Sphere? Thought Lash and Chromatic Sphere in play allow you to mill your entire library and draw a card without giving your opponent priority so they can't remove Laboratory Maniac.

Also, I'm wondering if there are any combos with Skill Borrower that don't require cards that are completely unplayable. Specifically, I'm thinking that there could be some combination of two activated abilities that would win the game, so your two card combo would be Thought Lash and Skill Borrower; you have the two cards in play, Exile your library down to Card A, activate its ability, then Exile down to card B, Activate its ability. The first thing that comes to mind for me is Wall of Blood and Skarrgan Skybreaker or Ghitu Fire-Eater, but that's infinitely worse on multiple levels--maybe there's some two card combo out there that just hasn't been stumbled onto yet.

Memories of the Time

07-07-2014, 09:26 AM

Cooooool idea boss. I think that W splash could be the best one, because of:
-E.Tutor
-Terminus
-Detection Sphere/Moat/Orim other sb-main little choice

This is my list, i think that Control-Combo version is the only reasonable one: we aren't fast (and Skill summon's sickness is one of the most bitter weakness) but we can be solid, playing a mid-long-term plan (lol) settling down at the situation.

4 Thought Lash
4 Skill Borrower
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Counterbalance
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Scroll Rack
2 Tundra
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
1 Phyrexian Devourer (Huge card with Skill, playable alone)
2 Terminus
1 Plains(or 3° Tundra)

SB: 1 Culling Scales
SB: 1 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Terminus
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Devastation Tide

nedleeds

07-07-2014, 09:48 AM

Also, I'm wondering if there are any combos with Skill Borrower that don't require cards that are completely unplayable.

Time Vault is really good.

Darkenslight

07-07-2014, 09:58 AM

Time Vault is really good.

It's also horribly banninated in Legacy, but I think you already knew that. :tongue:

Jables237

07-07-2014, 04:06 PM

Looks like a solid home for Vedalken Æthermage. Can wizard cycle to maniac.

Memories of the Time

07-07-2014, 04:56 PM

Looks like a solid home for Vedalken Æthermage. Can wizard cycle to maniac.

Not bad, must see if there is any utility that's a wizzy for this deck (other Skill, obv).
Btw, i think that there are two ways: Heavy Combo solution (Maniac+Skill+Devourer+Lash+Tutor, 4x) or a Control-Combo one: not sure what's the best.
Big problem i've found is Skill summon's sickness (for two turns, activating her on EOT... double opportunity for opponent's Jace/Liliana/ecc) and a well balanced manabase.

Smea.gol.lum

07-07-2014, 06:36 PM

Sweet!
Looking forward to the matchup analysis and hope this will be at least somehow playable.

It will take some time until I post something about the matchups. I haven't played a lot with the deck yet and have to do a lot of stuff the next weeks. I hope you guys will help me with that by sharing your experiences ;)

Sweepers seem necessary thinking about elves and dnt as problemeatic matchups. I assume culling scales will often enough be too little too late. Have you thought about light splashes for the SB (pyroclasm)? Ratchet Bomb might be another option.

A light black splash would enable Lim-Dul's Vault in the maindeck and Toxic Deluge out of the sideboard.

The Sol land split might also not be optimal. Opening with Top+Activate is a powerful play but not really sexy with City of Traitors.

In the tournament in Prague I played 4 Ancient Tombs and 2 City of Traitor. That split didn't feel optimal as the life loss hurt in many games.
I think that 3/3 could be the right split.

Did you test other mana artefacts? - they also have a nice synergy with skill borrower. Grim Monolith comes to mind but the Talismans might be an alternative to support a splash or Mind Stone to cycle or activate the combo later on. Also Turn 2 thought lash seems nice...

Other thoughts are if not other powerful control elements (ensnaring bridge, back to basics, blood moon) might be a nice addition in the 75 to buy time/bait counters.

I haven't tested mana artifacts yet but I like the idea of Talismans. I will definately try them out! Back to basics should probably also be somewhere in the 75.

Overall my feeling is that the deck is a little bit too clunky. Is long term plans really that good? Sneak plays only 2 intuition for a reason. Assuming you have access to BS, Ponder or top 80% of the time LT Plans is still card disadvantage and costs 2 more than Enlightened Tutor, Worldy Tutor which are also not widely played.
LTP is not really card disadvantage in case of S.Borrower because the top of your library is the place where you want the card to be.
4 could be too much though.

Is there any room for Chromatic Sphere? Thought Lash and Chromatic Sphere in play allow you to mill your entire library and draw a card without giving your opponent priority so they can't remove Laboratory Maniac.

Also, I'm wondering if there are any combos with Skill Borrower that don't require cards that are completely unplayable. Specifically, I'm thinking that there could be some combination of two activated abilities that would win the game, so your two card combo would be Thought Lash and Skill Borrower; you have the two cards in play, Exile your library down to Card A, activate its ability, then Exile down to card B, Activate its ability. The first thing that comes to mind for me is Wall of Blood and Skarrgan Skybreaker or Ghitu Fire-Eater, but that's infinitely worse on multiple levels--maybe there's some two card combo out there that just hasn't been stumbled onto yet.

I don't think that Chromatic Sphere is good because it doesn't do much on its own and Brainstorm/SDT are usually enough to protect Maniac.
The problem of the card A+B combo is that in 50% of the cases card B is above card A in your library ruining your plan.

Michael Keller

07-07-2014, 07:51 PM

Lantern of Insight seems good here, maybe Soothsaying?

Technics

07-08-2014, 01:35 AM

Had a game with Thoughtlash, Counterbalance, and Skill Borrower all out. THAT was amazing. Countered every spell he played that turn (and EOT made a million Skill Borrowers, for the next turn win).

Liking the idea a ton. Chromatic Sphere seems like it would help against Abrupt Decay's (which are giving me issues), but otherwise the list is so solid I wouldn't change much. I actually don't like 4 Long Term Planning, so I might cut 1-2 for the 2 sphere's.

Memories of the Time

07-08-2014, 05:59 AM

Add 1-2 Jace? Gives Brainstorm (that is an essantial spell here), alternative win-con ecc ecc
Plus, i think that W splash for E.Tutor deserve attention =D

Smea.gol.lum

08-17-2014, 09:12 PM

I'm thinking about adding Counterbalance to the main deck, but I haven't got any experience with control decks.

Can it still be worth it to play 3 Counterbalance main deck although I don't play any other 2 CMC spells??

In theory CB can at least protect Skill Maniac and Lab Man.

Daize

08-18-2014, 11:48 AM

Mmm, it's a shame that the oracle text of Phyrexian Devourer states the exiling as a cost, not an effect.

Also, a question: what happens with Skill Borrower and "conditional" activated abilities? Like e.g. [cards]Anavolver[/carsd], or other things that state that this creature has this activated ability "if x and y is met"?

klaus

08-18-2014, 12:38 PM

Deck looks like fun (though with some very questionable choices, such as Long-Term Plans), I fail to see though how this deck can be any more consistent / faster than SnT.dec?

Daize

08-18-2014, 02:52 PM

Exactly, LTP and honestly too Skill Borrower seem so slow - if you cast it on turn x, you can only at the end of your opponent's turn x+1 use the Kiki-Jiki trick, to attack on turn x+2. That's giving your opponents an extra 2 turns... Is that really worth it?

Daize

08-18-2014, 04:29 PM

Since we're in the development phase still:

I'm toying around a bit with Lim-Dûl's Vault, which is amazing for digging, but also - even though I'm not really a fan of the card - to get Kiki-Jiki on top for Skill Borrower.
Also, Mirror of Fate is an, albeit 1 mana more expensive, alternative to Thought Lash

I honestly think the deck would gain a lot from stepping off the second Skill Borrower plan (it doesn't really do anything for Lab Man (or does it?)) - which is pretty slow anyway, and focus more on protecting and solidifying the first game plan. This makes some more room for perhaps counterbalance, more counters all in all.

Even then, I'm leaning more towards Lim-Dûl's Vault than Enlightened Tutor, although I didn't exhaust the other possibilities of bringing in black instead of white. Casting LDV at eot, repeat the digger until you find what you want, and in case you have Thought Lash in play, put the card you want safely at the respective place so cards to be exiled are above it. Even being able to LDV to that Sol-land you'd like is pretty great.

Also, how scary is "response, Abrupt Decay" when you've just exiled your library -.-

EDIT:
Going way to far with this, but just trying out a version with black for Lim-Dûl's Vault and Hymn to Tourach to fight burn and ANT, if that makes any sense. Still feels clunky though, but maybe I'm just screwing up :-)

Smea.gol.lum

08-21-2014, 07:16 AM

Also, Mirror of Fate is an, albeit 1 mana more expensive, alternative to Thought Lash

Nice find! :) I didn't know that this card exists until you brought it up.
I will add it as a 1-of as a tutorable card for Skill Borrower with LTP and, like you said, as an alternative to Thought Lash.

Dream scenario is: FoW pitching Lab Man, some turns later: Mirror of Fate getting Lab Man back and win.

I will reduce the number of LTP to 3 and toy around a bit with Terminus as a tutorable sweeper.

Also, how scary is "response, Abrupt Decay" when you've just exiled your library -.-

Normally the way it goes is:
1. exile library
2. resp: Abrupt Decay
3. resp: flip SDT/ cast Brainstorm

Daize

08-21-2014, 10:30 AM

Yeah, though the smart opponents will wait until your draw activation, naturally :D.

I did do that once on cockatrice btw, FoW pitching lab man and getting him later with Mirror of Fate. It's interesting how Thought Lash works out as a staller for a few turns against aggro as well, btw.

I really like the concept, my only annoyance really is that it takes 2 turns after you have your combo to blow off for kiki-jiki, and without a drawer another turn with Lab Man as well (and honestly, you _need_ to know whether your opponent has anything to kill off your lab man in response - that's a lot of resources).

Iunno, this is the list I'm working with at the moment. Maybe it will give you all some ideas.

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
2 Mirror of Fate

1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
- Used to be Hymn to Tourach, but mostly to instead of waiting threats out, just getting them out beforehand

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Lim-Dûl's Vault
3 Ponder

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 City of Traitors
1 Ancient Tomb
4 Island

SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Toxic Deluge
- These babies are amazing against aggro
SB: 2 Temporal Mastery
- I have to replace these, way too situational
SB: 3 Flusterstorm

The_Dingo

08-21-2014, 10:34 AM

I wanted to bring 2 cards to you attention that I think might be good, or at least amusing.

Scroll rack is a way to control the top card of your library for counterbalance and skill borrower.

With a skill borrower in play it would be cool to enlightened tutor for mindslaver, thrash your opponents hand, then combo off unopposed afterwards.

Infinitium

08-21-2014, 11:35 AM

There used to be a semi-viable Thoughtlash/Future Sight (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5979-Deck-Thoughtless-Sensei-%28with-primer%29) deck floating around. Maybe you can get some inspiration from it, idk. People also played around with Skill Borrower and Worldly Tutor (for Kiki) back when it first spoiled, but it never amounted to anything much.

Smea.gol.lum

08-24-2014, 05:01 PM

Wow, Mirror of Fate does a lot in this deck.

Here are the interactions I can think of:

1. Mirror of Fate + Thought Lash: stack library
2. extra security for Lab Man in the case that he gets removed before being able to win the game
3. Skill Borrower with Mirror of Fate on top of the library:
a) forms the bridge between the Skill B. + Kiki-Jiki and the Lab Man + Thought Lash combos
b) Skill Borrower only needs to survive 1 turn which can be a way to victory in cases in which you have got Brainstorm/ SDT in order to respond to their spot removal which would ruin your day if you went for the Kiki-Jiki route (you need a Lab Man in hand or exile to be able to pull this off though)
4. FoW/Misdirection pitching Lab Man, later on get it back with Mirror
5. ensures the possibilty to play Lab Man aggressively against decks with Swords to Plowshares as their main removal
6. good way to win through needle effects or Meddling Mages shutting down the Thought Lash plan

Daize

08-25-2014, 12:57 AM

You're right: that makes Enlightened tutor shenanigans possible as well... a singleton Mirror of Fate is easy to pick up, only Lab Man is still hard to get by. Snapcaster Mage is something I'm trying out for chump-blockers, extra digging and fetches. If we're going down the multi-dimensional road, what the heck. Also, how would stifle do here? The combo is slow - there's no denying that, and stifling fetch lands from game 1 on, and even doing it again with Snapcaster Mage can buy you some extra time (or just countering the Wasteland effect).

Just some ideas.

3 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Mirror of Fate
5 Island
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Skill Borrower
2 Plains
4 Stifle
4 Tundra
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Ponder
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Silence

Oh this is fun: skill borrower and lab man in play, eot Enlightened Tutor for Mirror of Fate, use it on my skill borrower in my upkeep...

Redkid43

09-09-2014, 03:38 PM

Thought I'd share this with you guys.

7th Placed a legacy event in Europe

Creatures [9]
1 Griselbrand
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Laboratory Maniac
4 Skill Borrower

Instants [16]
2 Spell Pierce
3 Long-Term Plans
3 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [7]
1 Terminus
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder

Enchantments [4]
4 Thought Lash

Artifacts [4]
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [20]
1 Tundra
2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island

3 Defense Grid
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Culling Scales
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Energy Flux
1 Surgical Extraction

What I like about this deck is it's so simple. No messing around here.

Termius buys so much time against creature decks, you have enough hard counters and Spell Pierce to stall and protect yourself.

Daize

09-09-2014, 03:58 PM

Sweet, good on you! Do you have matchup specifics? :D

Redkid43

09-09-2014, 04:33 PM

Not my list it's from a Europe event on TC decks... :cool:

Smea.gol.lum

09-09-2014, 04:53 PM

Hey,

that's my list ;)

I went 3-2 with it in a 22 man event in Mainz (Germany):

2-1 vs UG Infect
2-1 vs Burn
2-0 vs Death n Taxes
1-2 vs BUG Delver
0-2 vs Storm

The last 2 matches were very close and could have gone either way.
Tournament report will be up soon.

Poron

09-13-2014, 07:21 AM

the problem is (and will be forever) that no combo deck makes sense when you can cast a possibly uncounterable (Boseju, or other counters backup) 2U sorcery that lets you draw seven cards, at least, or play an Emrakul (or worse in the future. Because to sell cards, WotC will always have to print stronger ones).

that's why all the combo decks of the last year revolve around Show and Tell. See Omnitell and SneakShow.
All the rest is Stoneforge Mystic - based creature decks with counter backup.
Why? Because no creature based deck makes sense when you have TNN around.

With Show and Tell around nothing else makes sense, unless they print an Instant 2cc mana that lets you cheat an Emrakul into play.
With TNN around no Tarmogoyf or any other pure aggro card will ever make sense.

Zupponn

09-13-2014, 09:50 AM

Tell that to the TES, ANT, and Elves players.

Poron

09-13-2014, 10:50 AM

those decks are surviving just because they see very little play.

should they see more people would start to play much more Ethersworn Canonist and win with that.

Technics

12-21-2014, 11:59 PM

This took me to a 3-1 finish at my local FNM

1 Griselbrand
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Laboratory Maniac
4 Skill Borrower

3 Spell Pierce
3 Long-Term Plans
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Jace the Mindsculpter

4 Thought Lash

4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island

Namida

12-22-2014, 06:54 AM

Dig Through Time seems like it belongs here. Delve works very well with Mirror of Fate if you're thinking of going down that road. I also really just want to find a card that combos off with Skill Borrower that is at least in color so it's castable and not a completely dead draw (even though it's probably pretty easy to Brainstorm it back into your deck).

Kagehisa

12-25-2014, 03:04 PM

Hi!

If you add some Thermopods, you will be able to start the combo with Thought Lash and Skill Borrower in the battlefield without passing your turn with one untapped Snow Covered Island. Just change Island into Snow Covered Island.

Edit for details:

Get Thought Lash and Skill Borrower in the battlefield with at least one untapped Snow Covered Island.

Then, use Thought Lash activated ability until a Thermopod is revealed on top of your library. Now, Skill Borrower gains Thermopod's ability. Pay with the Snow Covered Island. Skill Borrower has now haste.

Use Tought Lash's ability until you reveal Kiki and start the combo with a hasty Skill Borrower.

Make lots of copy of Skill Borrower.

Use Thought Lash until you reveal another Thermopod or Mirror of fate to put an exiled Thermopod on top of your library. Sacrifice as many as you want Skill Borrower to get lots of red mana.

Get creative.

Mhenlo

12-25-2014, 04:54 PM

Any consideration to splashing black and adding Lim Dul's Vault, Dark Rituals and Doomsdays?

Technics

12-29-2014, 03:22 AM

I think splashing really isn't worth it. Also running Doomsday is WAY "too cute".

Here is where I have settled on currently.

4 Thought Lash
4 Skill Borrower
3 Laboratory Maniac
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
6 Island
2 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Griselbrand
3 Long-Term Plans
1 Chromatic Sphere
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Swan Song
SB: 4 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Chromatic Sphere
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Nevinyrral's Disk (Messing around with this)
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity

4 Maindeck Swan Song is simply amazing. The Thoughtlash makes the birds not matter, but being able to counter a Blood Moon, Sneak Attack, or Humility are all amazing advantages over Flusterstorm, and the fact it just hard counters makes it miles better than Spell Pierce.

Grislebrand is very in and out for me right now. I really like the ability to just reload when I have it in hand and a Brainstorm, but no Thoughtlash, but 90% of the time it's a dead card. For now it stays, but may be gone next time I post a list.

Jakobian

12-31-2014, 07:20 PM

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
2 Spell Pierce
2 Lotus Petal
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Shelldock Isle
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Island

Sideboard:
4 Show and Tell
2 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
3 Back to Basics
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dismember

I took this in a different direction, but I feel like the core concept still applies here. I went to a weekly local legacy tournament and went 2-1 overall. I beat UW control, Esper Deathblade, and lost (1-2) to UWR delver. Some notable differences:
Shelldock Isle is really awesome as an alternate wincon with thought lash in play. The optimal plan is to cheat emrakul into play, but there are other useful cards it can cast from hideaway as well, such as Force of Will or even brainstorm for another instant-speed draw effect.
Dig Through time is the most synergistic card ever with this deck. It digs for combo pieces AND you get to put 5 cards on the bottom in ANY order, which means if they're useful, you can dig to them with thought lash anyway. Score!

My obvious alternate wincon is shelldock Isle + emrakul, and in games 2-3 I can sideboard into show and tell for emrakul as well. It catches people by surprise and is a wincon which is not reliant on a lightning-boltable creature or an artifact/enchantment, so I feel like it's a much better secondary plan of attack. The idea is that it's so much different from the main plan of attack that it can blank your opponent's sideboard plan. In matches where you win game 1 with the lab man plan, even if you lose game 2, this sideboard plan makes your opponent have a very very difficult decision on what to sideboard to stop your plans. Do they board in anti show and tell hate? Do they board in enchantment removal? Do they leave in all their creature removal spells? One thing to keep in mind is you may want to fake out your opponent by purposely sideboarding cards even if you aren't actually changing the deck in game 3 (put in 6 cards, take the same 6 cards back out).

Jace has been pretty good in this deck, but I feel like he just dies against a deck with bolts or aggro stuff, which might not actually be the end of the world. Brainstorming and soaking up a bunch of damage seems fine in this deck, because sometimes you just need 1 more turn to get to thought lash with FoW backup, and from there aggro decks can't really mess you up. Thought lash is great at soaking up damage like that.

I didn't know about the culling scales + SDT soft lock, I think it's neat but might be too cute for the deck. I should probably run some number of ratchet bombs in my sideboard, and I have contemplated removing ponders for preordains or impulses.

Cards I am considering somewhere in the 75:
Pithing Needle -- to protect the shelldock isle from wasteland in games 2-3, can also shut down some combo decks
Ratchet bomb -- to destroy pithing needle/phyrexian revoker naming thought lash, and to defeat elves/death and taxes
Impulse -- Setting up the bottom of the library is almost as good as setting up the top of the library in this deck, just knowing where cards are is a huge benefit. This would likely replace some number of ponders
Chromatic Star/Sphere -- as a 1-of that I can dig for. Most likely the opponent will go to kill laboratory maniac when you cast this though, so it might not even be useful unless you have it in play pre-maniac

Cards I might remove from the 75:
Back to basics -- It is good counterspell bait and buys time, but 3 might not be the right number, and there might be some better options
Dismember -- I think ratchet bomb might just be better here
Ponder -- Might cut for preordain/impulse
Lotus Petal -- Doesn't really enable anything a turn faster, but it's really useful in the show and tell plan if you're living the dream in game 2 or 3 (petal, ancient tomb, show and tell emrakul, FoW + blue card)

I am playing this list (slightly modified) again tomorrow, and likely saturday at my local shop in a bigger event. I'll try and let you guys know how it goes.

Technics

01-02-2015, 07:13 PM

It catches people by surprise and is a wincon which is not reliant on a lightning-boltable creature or an artifact/enchantment, so I feel like it's a much better secondary plan of attack.

I think the plan of just running 1-2 Chromatic Sphere's to blank removal is a much better plan than trying to slot in a whole different package. What I like about this deck is it's a 2 card combo, (Similar to painter), that is in mono blue, so you get to run all the best answers to their answers. Splashing in a secondary win plan tends to lead to drawing Emrakul + Thoughtlash, or Lab Man + Show and Tell. I think trying to stay hyper focused on one game plan, and executing it the best we can is the way to go. People already have no idea what you are up to, there is no reason to add in more "craziness" just because you want to confuse people.

To that end, I really like Long Term Plans in the deck. Although not the best tutor in the world, there have been many a game where I can drop a Skill Borrower, and then just LTP + Top a Kiki into the win. It's great when you have the Skill Borrower, but not the Thoughtlash, and instead of haveing to tutor up the lash, and cast that, you can just win instead.

Also Swan Song has been AMAZING! I really reccomend people test it some. They fact that there is zero downside once you want your Thoughtlash makes it so strong.

Smea.gol.lum

12-02-2015, 03:24 PM

Hey,

has anyone kept toying around with this deck?
I haven't played Magic for a long time and wasn't active during the Treasure Cruise/DTT era at all.
Damn, DTT would have been perfect for this deck. Not only does it dig for Thought Lash, it also puts Laboratory Maniac on the bottom of the library while doing so.

That being said, I'm thinking about cutting the secondary Skill Borrower plan completely, because it seems a bit clunky and slow.
Swan Song looks really good, thanks for bringing that up!
Here's the new streamlined list I'm thinking about:

4 Thought Lash
3 Laboratory Maniac
1 Intuition
4 Serum Powder

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Swan Song
3 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
7 Island
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
3 Culling Scales
3 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Repeal
2 Mirror of Fate

The list is completely untested, so I don't know if Thought Lash can be found reliably enough via Serum Powder and Intuition or if the number of Intuitions has to be increased.

Mirror of Fate helps to circumvent Needle effects postboard and has nice synergy with Thought Lash, Lab Man and Serum Powder.

Perhaps, I'll be able to attend a Legacy event in a few weeks. If yes, I'll let you know how it went ;)

Technics

12-02-2015, 06:31 PM

Hey,

has anyone kept toying around with this deck?

I actually was playing with it at the GP (testing) and recently at local events. Still on the skill borrower plan. It is SO good.

Smea.gol.lum

12-03-2015, 08:23 AM

I actually was playing with it at the GP (testing) and recently at local events. Still on the skill borrower plan. It is SO good.

Nice! Can you share your experiences? Did you play the list you've posted on the second page at the GP? How was Griselbrand?
How did you cope with needle effects postboard?

EriktheRed

12-09-2015, 03:17 AM

I started working on this list a few months ago but it seemd like a mono blue combo deck that wasn;t Omnitell (ie = bad). weeks ago. Took it a local Weekly Legacy tournament this week. Comboing out of nowhere and being strong control against other combos was fun.
3-1 in about about a 20 man field.

4 Thought Lash
3 Laboratory Maniac
4 Skill Borrower
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Impulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Culling Scales
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
3 Swan Song
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
8 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mirror of Fate
2 Long-Term Plans

SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Aetherling
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Phyrexian Devourer
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Devastation Tide
SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Nevinyrral's Disk

S/B was a bunch one of's/experimental at this point.
I was just playing around with the list, didn't expect to do anything, so no notes. Will do matches and highlights from memory

Round 1: Storm 2-0
Game: He mulls to 5, play petal passes. I think turn two he sac'd petal, ponder, which I instantly force. He never gets land going, I borrower/Kiki.
Game 2, He starts to go off, I give him the bird, he beats me down with it for quite a few turns. I still have flusterstorm in hand if he tries again. Eventually lab maniac/thoughtlash. Deck showed real strength this game for the match-up.

Round 2: Grixis Pyromancer/Anglers/stuff 2-1
Game 1: Good friend of mine, but not the Grixis deck I'm used to him playing. He has double cabal therapy with flashbacks. I managed to get one of my two maniacs on deck after he stripped both thoughtlashes from hand. I top deck another thoughtlash and kill my next draw phase. I cop to have a ridiculous top-deck.
Game 2: Sideboard poorly cause I still think he's grixis control. Didn't side into counterbalance or ratchet bombs, leave in borrowers/ side out lab man. I think this is where we have one of the craziest stacks I've seen: Him - Therapy, M brainstorm, H - extraction on brainstorm (after resolved), M-misdirections on therapy, H brainstorm; not biggest, just wild. Get beat by stuff anyway. Only match I started to hate swan song, that bird token combos too well with therapy. Should probably side out swan song against non-combo therapy decks.
Game 3: Side in counterbalance. ends up being very key. Early multiple discard rips my hand apart, and he slowly builds a board. He gets active deathrite, pyromancer with some tokens, a bird, and I think a liliana (I remember no being able to keep anything in hand) and two cards in hand (yup, was FoW plus blue card); I have a Relic of Progenitus, Counterbalance (ain't been working cause no deck manip) and a labman, 0 cards in hand. I ponder, draw a fetch land, and put thoughtlash on top and force under it, pass, he knocks me down to I think 4, with untapped deathrite and very dead on board. Draw Thoughtlash, play it; he forces, I flip FoW to counterbalance. He's stunned. That fetchland gives me one last mana and look, I have a relic of progenitus and exactly one mana; sac it to draw a card, in response thoughtlash library away, and lab man wins it for me on my last turn.

Round 3 - Miracles 0-2
Game 1: pretty sure this is a bad matchup. Leave one blue untapped early game, swan song his counterbalance. I attempt combo, he has Force plus blue card and counterspell and untapped islands. Get beat by bird and something else.
Game 2: Don't remember exactly but stuck on two lands well past turn 5, get going but he has way too many Red blasts, too mana efficient and can't fight back. Try to devastation tide when he gets mentor going, but it gets countered.

Round 4 - Storm 2-1
Game 1: he tries to go off, gets a bird. Bird trades with a lab man. I recast lab man and beat down. He tries to go off again, I let all the mana resolve and force the tutor, I was pretty sure he didn't have discard after rebuilding. Lab man gets there for all 20 (or minus a few fetches/probes). He can't believe he lost to a 2/2 for 3.
Game 2: got the combo so I keep without thinking. My first draw step realize the mistake of keeping a hand with no disruption against storm. First three draws are lands.
Game 3: I think I countered an early dark rit or brainstorm. He duresses, I have devourer/borrower combo in hand, just need a brainstorm to combo out. Hand is also double thoughtlash. He says something like what is going on. He takes a thoughtlash, to reduce available blue cards for a force. He rebuilds in a turn or two and combos out for 10 goblins. Play a third land, borrower, go, take 9. Play forth land, drop thoughtlash. He realizes that thoughtlash does something incredibly relevant besides dumping my deck into exile. He says go, I find Kiki, make a million borrowers and my wizards swarm over his huddle of goblins on my next combat step. Get yet another comment of 'What just happened here?'

Surprise factor is definitely big, people weren't sure how to sideboard or attack the deck.

After thoughts
Maindeck: Culling Scales got switched to main deck for Griselbrand, who I saw not totally thrilled with in testing. Scales got forced right away when cast against delver (would have been awesome) and did some good work against Storm 2's chrome mox and lotus petal and I get the top/scales soft lock going all game. Gonna keep this for now. The ancient tombs definitely hurt, but were crucial at other times, might adjust city/tomb balance more toward cities.

SB: Note#1: defense grid sucked, it lost me game 2 vs: grixis delver when I couldn't misdirect something that killed my combo due to my own grid. I run to many maindeck counters (which is what beat storm). There may be better matchups for this, but I'm getting rid of it.
Nevinyrral's disk: wanted to fire this card when it was pointed out it doesn't hit planeswalkers (happened when I was getting wrecked by Jace). Cute that it can go off the turn flipped by a borrower, but probably doesn't do enough.
Devourer: Seemed good in testing as it provides a one turn faster kill against creatureless/combo decks than kiki since if skill borrower already on field, long term plans devourer, spin to top card of library, stack devourers activations, and alpha-strike with borrower. Got stymied by many goblins (which completely suck against thoughtlash so not really a bad point against devourer)
Back to Basics: stayed in my hand, I refused to cast it, even 4 color grixis delver fetched a pair of basics; everybody too paranoid about wasteland/bad moon. Imagine it's killer in some match ups. Not sure worth the slot yet, cause it hurts my sol lands.
Ratchet Bomb: seemed slow and clunky when I drew it. It does hit planeswalkers.
Aetherling: If I had been able to draw any land game two vs. miracles, would have been the killer draw. It also keeps skill borrower unkillable.
Griselbrand: Didn't use; I preferred having Devourer for storm matchup as second borrower target. Should be great in show and tell match, but not seeing much of that anymore. Not sure about keeping him.
Flusterstorm: Gave me a warm fuzzy feeling every time I drew it against storm. Win-more maybe, but I'd have a hard time cutting it.
In general sided borrower out to bring in counterbalance, and sided lab man out to bring in artifacts or other stuff.
I want more Planeswalker kill, preferably usable with Skill borrower, but mine current S/B didn't work. I would probably go with more bounce, not synergistic, but should get the job done.

Daize

12-09-2015, 08:29 AM

Read ph. Devourer errata, milling is a cost now... and been that for a while :-)

I actually was playing with it at the GP (testing) and recently at local events. Still on the skill borrower plan. It is SO good.

I'm wondering about this too, how do you feel it's _SO_ good?

EriktheRed

12-10-2015, 12:58 AM

Thanks, I hadn't checked for errata on devourer; I should have as they errata a few things to have sac being part of the cost. It didn't come up in game anyway. So back to Griselbrand and second borrower target and stay with mirror for when there is a pithing needle on thoughtlash.

Did have someone question me on the Impulse errata and he looked up Oracle on that. In this deck, errata may be beneficial as we like knowing what's on bottom.

Regarding Technics comment, my sense was that Skill borrower was the more versatile combo part -well, except for beating down storm with regular damage :tongue:

Smea.gol.lum

01-15-2016, 04:41 PM

Hey,

here is another direction in which you can take the deck:

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Serum Powder
2 Mirror of Fate

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Swan Song

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
7 Island
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
3 Culling Scales
3 Counterbalance
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Repeal
2 Flusterstorm
1 Chromatic Sphere

Ways to victory:
A) LabMan+Thought Lash+draw
B) LabMan+ Mirror of Fate+draw
C) Mirror of Fate+Thought Lash+draw

The synergy in this list cannot be overlooked. In contrast to the list featering the Skill Borrower/Kiki and the Thought Lash/LabMan combo, in this list every combo piece pairs well with each other combo piece.

Serum Powder digs 7 cards deep for Thought Lash/Mirror if it is in the opening hand and exiles LabMans for plan B) while doing so.
It also helps to power out Mirror and to pay for Daze and Spell Pierce.

To be discussed:
3 or 4 LabMans
2 or 3 Mirrors
3 or 4 Probes
19 or 20 lands
Sideboard

Wordslinger

02-03-2016, 01:45 AM

Philipp2293

02-03-2016, 01:53 AM

If you are having troubles with Port decks, how about running a few Teferi's Responses in your SB?

.Ix

02-03-2016, 02:46 AM

Huh. I ended up with this:

I ended up crushing all sorts of stuff but consistently losing to decks with port. seeing how we usually have 2-4
people on lands and 2 people on d&t in a weekly twenty person room. I decided the deck was garbage in my meta.
Maybe yours is different?

Maybe Pithing Needle on Rishadan Port could work? It tends to be pretty decent against decks with port. I think your island-only mana base is a lot easier to port down than a mana base with sol lands, too.

Smea.gol.lum

02-03-2016, 02:56 PM

Huh. I ended up with this:

4 labrotory maniac
4 thought lash

4 sensei's divining top
4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 jace vryn's prodigy

1 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
4 force of will
2 misdirection
4 counterbalance
2 daze

4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
10 island

sideboard
2 energy flux - meta call
2 echoing truth
3 grafdiggers cage
3 back to basics
3 mystic remora - this card is bonkers on the combo turn, only loses to kgrip
1 flex

I ended up crushing all sorts of stuff but consistently losing to decks with port. seeing how we usually have 2-4
people on lands and 2 people on d&t in a weekly twenty person room. I decided the deck was garbage in my meta.
Maybe yours is different?

I'm skeptical in regards of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in this deck. It will eat removal all day long. I don't think that the fact that it clears the way for Laboratory Maniac is enough to justify its slots.
I'm running Skill Borrower instead which has a lot more synergy with the rest of the deck (moved away from the list I posted above).

How was Counterbalance?

I would cut the Dazes and add Swan Song - it 's really good.

You should definately run 4-6 sol lands because they speed up the deck considerably and help to pay for tax effects and against Ports.
You should also try out Culling Scales in the sideboard. It wins games alone against Death and Taxes for example.

Mystic Remora is an awesome find! I will happily add it to my sideboard :)

Here's the list I'm working with at the moment:

4 Thought Lash
3 Laboratory Maniac
3 Skill Borrower
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Swan Song
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
3 Long-Term Plans

3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
7 Island
3 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
3 Culling Scales
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Mystic Remora
1 Mirror of Fate (against needle effects)
2 Flusterstorm

Wordslinger

02-05-2016, 12:29 AM

counterbalance main is completely absurd and should be SOP for every build of this deck going forward. Shutting off removal is huge, overloading decay is huge, having yet more game against faster combo is preaty good,etc. most decks kinda just lose to thought lash plus countertop lock, and even without top, counterbalance plus lash has a tendency to be virtual card advantage.

Its funny you should say replace daze with swan song, because i started with swan song and decided i wanted daze instead. this variant loves free counters.

When tiny Jace is good, its the reason i win games, but when it's bad.. i have no words. The worst is when they use karakas and don't even expend a card. I need something else. mirror looks spicy.

i'll try the scales maybe.

the problem with adding sol lands is twofold. first, wasteland becomes worse for you than port ever was, because d&t is not the only deck with wastelands. I do not want to get loam wasted out while my opponent sits there with sphere of
resistance. Yes i do have to deal with this many lands players.

the second problem with adding sol lands is that doing so i believe is a misassignment of role. You will never be as fast as omnitell. You will never be as resillient as omnitell. What you can be however, is a mono blue control deck that solves all the traditional problems of the archetype by having a series of lock pieces that your opponent has to fight through to disrupt you, more countermagic than almost any other deck in the format, a combo piece that doubles as a lock piece, a almost completely invulnerable manabase, almost the entire cantrip cartel, and a combo that once assembled can win the game at instant speed at your leisure, sometimes multiple times in the face of disruption.

That's what this variant is about.

alohazendo

02-07-2016, 05:29 PM

Last weekend, a twelve year old boy walked into an 8 person tournament here in Austin. He borrowed this deck from a friend, yes, he had never seen the deck before, and proceeded to go 4-0. Pretty impressive. I guess I should also point the rest of us there were much older, have played for years, and I'm fairly confident we don't completely suck at Magic...

Echelon

02-08-2016, 01:55 AM

alohazendo

02-08-2016, 11:17 PM

Was anyone running any countermagic..?

I was on Jund, so obviously not me. I think he went up against infect, but I don't know who else he played. Theoretically, he can still power through a counter battle, the deck has quite a few of its own.

.Ix

02-09-2016, 03:44 AM

I played smea.gol.lum's list against Storm and Tinfins for some 10-11 games and lost only once. I just took the control role and played toward not dying. I lost when I ran out of counters.

I changed it quite a bit and tested it again yesterday. -3 Swan Song -1 Skill Borrower +4 Counterbalance -2 City of Traitors +2 Island
I went 4-3 against 4c Loam and 4-2 against Lands. I actually lost TWICE when I had Skill Borrower and Thought Lash in play. Exiled Kiki on the upkeep before Borrower could combo, and also lost once when I Lashed my library to find Kiki at the very bottom... Amazing. I was very glad that Skill borrower is 1/3.

alohazendo

02-09-2016, 09:21 PM

.Ix

02-10-2016, 09:40 AM

Yes, I think it's far too strong not to run.

Wordslinger

02-13-2016, 12:03 AM

Predict seems to be the card to fit in the jace slot.

Played a 12 man local on wedsday, went 4-0, Played against infect 2-0 Shardless 2-0 Elves 0-2 and reanimator 2-0.

infect feels like a suprisingly good matchup, but elves is terrible.

More later, My MTGO match has started.

Technics

02-24-2016, 12:38 AM

Read ph. Devourer errata, milling is a cost now... and been that for a while :-)

I'm wondering about this too, how do you feel it's _SO_ good?

I have won many games without having to get a Thoughtlash in play. Skill Borrower with Long Term Plans, Brainstorm, and or Top (any/all of these combinations come up) gives you a huge ability to win out of nowhere. Also if you can get past summonisg sickness it's a combo that dodges all non-terminus removal.

Wordslinger

02-29-2016, 05:12 AM

Bazaar of Baghdad

02-29-2016, 04:11 PM

With a Thought Lash in play, there is an alternate plan besides Kiki that allows you to win instantaneously with Skill Borrower, but only by junking up the deck somewhat.

I'm not the first one to note that Skill Borrower winning in two more turns is an eternity that never happens. I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but on the turn you play Skill Borrower, you can win, through removal, for free. The idea is to put free or cheap activated abilities on top of the library that don't require SB to tap, cycling through them all with TL. The needs are 1) a power increase, 2) a way to connect, 3) shroud/hexproof and 4) (possibly optional) haste. One good thing about the combo is that you can use Thought Lash to cycle through your library in any order to hit those. If the needed cards have already been drawn, Brainstorm can put them back. I will take these each in turn.

Power increase:

Option 1: Phyrexian Devourer, at least two copies, and Pestilent Souleater for infect (costs B or 2 life). This makes SB a 13/15 infect creature. Note the cost exiles the Devourer copy on the top of the library so you must have multiple copies.
Option 2: Wall of Blood to allow SB to get to 10 power (costs 9 life), and either B or 2 life for infect from Pestilent Souleater
Option 3: You can substitute one of the Devourers for a Jodah's Avenger, granting SB double strike at the cost of a -1/-1 counter; this can be used even before drawing the Devourer. You can activate for a second -1/-1 counter (probably dealing only 10 infect damage now) to grant Shadow. If protection is not a concern, this could save a card, and in a pinch Jodah is blue.
Note that the infect plan is better than more copies of Devourer or more life from Wall of Blood, in case they have lifegain
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/674960-two-skill-borrower-questions judges there confirm the Devourer interaction. The Devourer plan is almost clearly better but uses 2 deck slots and costs 2 life.

Direct Damage:

Option 1: Cephalid Inkshrouder grants unblockable and shroud at the cost of one discard; if StP targets SB in response, you will have to discard a second card.
Option 2: Skarrgan Skybreaker or Triskelion alleviate the need for haste by pitching the SB or +1/+1 counters for damage, respectively, to the opponent. The downside is that it must be the last combo piece in the library so either multiple copies or a way to reorder the library if it arrives too early (Lim-Dûl's Vault perhaps?)
Option 3: Jodah's Avenger grants Shadow at the cost of a -1/-1 counter.
Option 4: Trespassing Souleater: unblockable for {U} or 2 life
Superficially, I prefer Option 1, but Avenger may be the best route if it trims the decklist.

Untargetable:

Option 1: Cephalid Inkshrouder, also grants unblockability, but it requires a discard; see above
Option 2: Sylvan Safekeeper: sac land for shroud
Option 3: Morphling: shroud for {U}; flying for another {U}

Haste:

Option 1: {U} from a Snow-Island with Thermopod; probably my preference from this list, especially since if you have any other creature in play, you can sac that other creature instead to make this ability completely free.
Option 2: {2} from Golem Artisan
Option 3: {B} from Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon; {G} from Thornling; or {R} from Savage Knuckleblade or Serpentine Kavu
Option 4: removing a -1/-1 counter with Lunar Avenger; this requires accessing one copy of Phyrexian Devourer first so if you run three Devourers it should be safe
Option 5: Oxidda Daredevil lets you sacrifice an artifact for haste
Option 6: A second discard (after Inkshrouder) with Dwarven Strike Force
Option 7: Skipping haste with the Skarrgan Skybreaker plan above. This doesn't save the shroud requirement as they can send a kill spell while the Infect and/or power-increase effects are on the stack unless you have a redundant copy of Devourer or an extra 2 life for a redundant copy of Infect.
Option 8: Skipping haste for Triskelion transforms +1/+1 counters for direct damage; like Skarrgan Skybreaker, it must appear after other power-granting effects
Option 9: Skipping haste to win the next turn instead; this saves one less janky card in the decklist and might be required anyway if you don't have the mana/discard option; this can easily backfire to any removal, as though you can save the SB, you will likely exile win conditions in doing so

Of note, Sage of Hours can transform 5 +1/+1 counters into a free extra turn - I don't see how this is beneficial, and it requires the correct order on the library, but make of it what you will.
Bonus, if you use Lim-Dûl's Vault as your search spell, you may have a decent chance at ensuring your Triskelion/Skybreaker option is indeed under the other combo pieces.

It's not as janky as it sounds. The name of the game is still landing Thought Lash first and the other 3-5 cards (as you choose to configure) merely need to be somewhere in the library. I do think this instant-win kill is better than the painfully slow, easily disrupted Kiki kill but I definitely consider that it may be better to skip Skill Borrower altogether.

Smea.gol.lum

02-29-2016, 05:29 PM

so what do you think about this decks eldrazi matchup? without testing, my gut says they can't beat a resolved thought lash. both your combo pieces dodge all their removal save dismember. the only cards that suck are spheres
and dismember. maybe chalice depending. thoughts?
I have only played some games against Eldrazi but it was ok. Depending on how fast their clock is, I even play Lab Man before dropping Thought Lash, because Dismember is their only removal spell.
It also depends on whether they play Revoker maindeck or not. Revoker is obviously a pain in the ass. Chalice hurts, too.

With a Thought Lash in play, there is an alternate, if janky, plan besides Kiki (which only wins two long turns later) and win instantaneously with Skill Borrower by junking up the deck somewhat.

I'm not the first one to note that Skill Borrower winning in two more turns is an eternity that never happens. I don't know if it's a good idea or not, but I found a janky combo with Thought Lash to win on the turn you play Skill Borrower for just one mana, or less janky and for free the turn after. The idea is to put free or cheap activated abilities on top that don't require SB to tap. The needs are 1) a power increase, 2) a way to connect, 3) shroud/hexproof and 4) (optional) haste. One good thing about the combo is that you can use Thought Lash to cycle through your library in any order to hit those. If the needed cards have already been drawn, Brainstorm can put them back. I will take these each in turn.

Power increase:

Option 1: Phyrexian Devourer, at least two copies, and Pestilent Souleater for infect (costs B or 2 life). This makes SB a 13/15 infect creature. Note the cost exiles the Devourer copy on the top of the library so you must have multiple copies.
Option 2: Wall of Blood to allow SB to get to 10 power (costs 9 life), and either B or 2 life for infect from Pestilent Souleater
Note that the infect plan is better than more copies of Devourer or more life from Wall of Blood in case they have lifegain
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/674960-two-skill-borrower-questions judges there confirm the Devourer interaction. The Devourer plan is almost clearly better but uses 2 cards and costs 2 life.

Direct Damage:

Option 1: Cephalid Inkshrouder grants unblockable and shroud at the cost of one discard.
Option 2: Skarrgan Skybreak alleviates the need for haste by pitching the SB to the opponent. The downside is that it must be the last combo piece in the library so either multiple copies or a way to reshuffle the library if it arrives too early
I prefer Option 1.

Untargetable:

Option 1: Cephalid Inkshrouder, also grants unblockability, but it requires a discard; see above

Haste:

Option 1: {B} from Skythirx, the Blight Dragon; {G} from Thornling; or {R} from various
Option 2: {2} from Golem Artisan
Option 3: A -1/-1 counter from Lunar Avenger; this requires accessing one copy of Phyrexian Devourer first so if you run three Devourers it should be safe
Option 4: {U} from a Snow-Island with either Thermopod or Goblin Rimerunner; probably my preference from this list
Option 5: A second discard (after Inkshrouder) with Dwarven Strike Force
Option 6: Skipping haste with the Skarrgan Skybreak plan above. This doesn't save the shroud requirement as they can send a kill spell while the Infect and/or power-increase effects are on the stack unless you have a redundant copy of Devourer or an extra 2 life for a redundant copy of Infect.
Option 7: Skipping haste to win the next turn instead; this saves one less janky card in the decklist and might be required anyway if you don't have the mana/discard option.

It's not as janky as it sounds. The name of the game is still landing Thought Lash first and the other 3-5 cards (as you choose to configure) merely need to be somewhere in the library. I do think it's better than the painfully slow, easily disrupted Kiki kill but I definitely consider that it may be better to skip Skill Borrower altogether.

Nice findings ;) Welcome to the Source! I have dropped Skill Borrower for now because it requires you to run Long-Term Plans (card disadvantage) and makes the deck clunky.

Here's my newest list:

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
3 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
3 Impulse
2 Intuition

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
9 Island
1 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb

I stepped away from Swan Song and replaced it with Spell Pierce and Flusterstorms. This version fully commits to the Thought Lash plan and can also play the control role.
I took the Cantrip suite from an Omnitell list (-4 Preordain, + 4 SDT), that was in the top8 of two big tournaments.
Most of the decks can't get rid of Thought Lash g1.
Post-board, needle effects and other hate make it more difficult and I'm not sure yet if it's best to fight the hate or if there 's a viable plan B.

EDIT: On the Skill Borrower topic: I think that you should only run silver-bullets for Skill Borrower that are powerful on their own like Kiki-Jiki. Running packages like Devourer/Devourer/Souleater take too many slots and only help when you should already be winning. With Thought Lash in play, it should be enough to mill into Kiki-Jiki or into a Maniac for the win next turn.

Bazaar of Baghdad

03-01-2016, 08:09 AM

On the Skill Borrower topic: I think that you should only run silver-bullets for Skill Borrower that are powerful on their own like Kiki-Jiki. Running packages like Devourer/Devourer/Souleater take too many slots and only help when you should already be winning. With Thought Lash in play, it should be enough to mill into Kiki-Jiki or into a Maniac for the win next turn.

You would think that, and I agree, but I lost two matches this weekend with the combo in play to 1) a resolved instant-speed reanimation of Emrakul and 2) an Ulvenwald Tracker keeping things in check. Not to be too results-oriented, but that experience was at least the motivation for the prior (heavily edited) post and its accompanying research.

cdnza

04-05-2016, 03:31 PM

What can we board in against Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker? Are we limited to just Chain/Echoing/River? I know Culling Scales deals with them but that seems awfully slow against Eldrazi, for instance.

ozimek

04-06-2016, 05:25 AM

Technics

04-06-2016, 06:56 AM

Hurkyl's Recall ? Will likely also get rid of some of their actual threats.

Engineered explosives has been really good to me. Also nabs counterbalance and other troublesome stuff as well as 1-2 almost not hitting anything on our side.

Smea.gol.lum

04-06-2016, 09:28 AM

What's your current list, Technics? Are you still running the Skill Borrower version?

cdnza

04-06-2016, 11:39 AM

OK, I tried this out for the first time last night.

7 island
8 fetch
3 ancient tomb
1 crystal vein
2 underground sea

4 thought lash
3 lab man
3 borrower
1 kiki

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
3 lim-dul's vault
2 misdirection
1 divert
1 flusterstorm
1 swan song
1 spell pierce
4 sensei
3 counterbalance

SB
2 echoing truth
1 repeal
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 ratchet bomb
2 culling scales
1 hurkyl's recall
1 counterbalance
1 flusterstorm
1 tormod's crypt
2 back to basics

Made the list last night before having to leave for the store. Had 4 Gitaxian Probe too but accidentally made a 64-card list so cut em last-minute because I had to go to get to the store in time! Maindeck disruption suite is a split so I can see what is good and what isn't. Some other choices are a bit random or a product of availability (e.g. Crypt cus I couldn't find my Relics, Extirpate because I couldn't find a third Surgical, etc. Anyway, I was ready to play some jank.

R1 - burg delver
G1
my opp mulls, doesn't seem to have much going on. i keep a hand with 2 islands, top, CB, some disruption. I do not draw a third land for the rest of the game. my opponent doesn't really land a threat for a long time but eventually just makes a deathrite and shocks me a bunch. disappointing start!
G2
i board in Culling Scales and B2B iirc. my opponent has a quick clock with t1 and t2 delver and DRS, so i need to do stuff. I resolve a Skill Borrower who survives, then cantrip/shuffle/top into the Kiki. I activate in my opponent's end step and he has the Abrupt Decay. There's still a turn or two before I die but I can't find anything (and Thought Lash doesn't do much against active DRS!).

R2 - eldrazi
G1
I'm not afraid! I resolve Thought Lash off Ancient Tomb. My opponent plays a TKS and is veeeery confused after looking at my hand. He takes a Lab Man leaving me with Misdirection. I top into Skill Borrower and then exile down to kiki a turn later, having Misdirection for his removal.
G2
i board out CBs and fluster/swan or something and bring in Recall, B2Bs and the bounce. My opponent has a slow start. I play a Lab Man, he casts Dismember, I Force. I untap and play Thought Lash into Brainstorm for the win. Confidence is returning!

R3 - nic fit
G1
My opponent hits a blind Therapy on my double Brainstorm. frown. he doesn't really do a great deal besides make a Sigarda. I have the Lab Man kill but with no protection, so try to draw more but eventually am threatened with lethal. I go for the LabMan but he has the Abrupt Decay gg.
G2
I board my Echoing Truths and maybe the bomb, not sure. I misboarded here - I should probably be taking out my CBs and bringing in Culling Scales.
He makes an early Deed, which is annoying. He also GSZs for Teeg. All I have is a Skill Borrower. Fortunately for me, he taps out to get a clock into play so I end step bounce the teeg and kill him.
G3
This is a funny opening. He goes t1 Thoughtseize and i Misdirection it. He reveals a hand of 5 lands and an Abrupt Decay, which he is forced to take! Seems deece. I get t2 CB but he natural draws the RecSage! Looks like we have a game. I can't find a LabMan or a Borrower, so I get beaten down and eventually he lands a Teeg. I have the Echoing Truth but can't use it yet. I play a Borrower and can maybe win if it survives since I am pretty sure his hand is empty. My opponent surprises me with top, shuffle, top, flip top into Krosan Grip! Especially annoying since there was a 3 in the top 3 cards but I didn't leave it on top... We talk it over afterwards and actually realise that I was dead either way - I would have to use my Ancient Tomb to cast both E Truth _and_ my Thought Lash, but if my opponent attacks with all his guys he puts me to 2. Good games though!

Executive summary
The deck is surprisingly good, I think if I had played it before I could have won all three matches but my inexperience showed. I think I need to maybe make space for the probes again though. The black splash was sick - LDV is an insane card and in this deck it also allows you to set up the Skill Borrower kill very easily without having to have Thought Lash in play or run janky Long-Term Plans. The splash is effectively free too since you can still run so many basics. It also opens up Engineered Explosives and some other SB cards. That said, Abrupt Decay is a card that _everyone_ plays and its extremely good against this deck. Honestly I think I need to play more Misdirection/Divert if this is going to be playable. I spoke to another player who has been running Donate lately and his combo is sort of similar in that it usually requires a 4-mana enchantment, but his doesn't care about Abrupt Decay at all which is nice. I think Misdirection might even just be more important than Force for this reason.

hofzge

04-07-2016, 04:06 AM

7 island
8 fetch
3 ancient tomb
1 crystal vein
2 underground sea

4 thought lash
3 lab man
3 borrower
1 kiki

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
3 lim-dul's vault
2 misdirection
1 divert
1 flusterstorm
1 swan song
1 spell pierce
4 sensei
3 counterbalance

SB
2 echoing truth
1 repeal
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 ratchet bomb
2 culling scales
1 hurkyl's recall
1 counterbalance
1 flusterstorm
1 tormod's crypt
2 back to basics

I like the list but have a more general question: Is there a consensus that the Skill Borrower Combo is needed? The version above by Smea.gol.lum plays none and when playing LDV I can see the value of having 2 plans.

Also: Is it good to play the Counterbalances main instead of side?

Also why Surgical Extraction? Without a Snapcaster Mage Surgical seems very underwhelming and I would wlways play Relic/Nihil Spellbomb over it.

Had 4 Gitaxian Probe too but accidentally made a 64-card list so cut em last-minute because I had to go to get to the store in time!
Some other choices are a bit random or a product of availability (e.g. Crypt cus I couldn't find my Relics, Extirpate because I couldn't find a third Surgical, etc. Anyway, I was ready to play some jank.

Taking tha into account how about this:

3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
3x Flooded Strand
7x Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea

4x Thought Lash
3x Laboratory Maniac
3x Skill Borrower
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Lim-Dul's Vault

4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
2x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce

Sideboard
1x Engineered Explosives - Pithing Needle, Thalia, Chalice of the Void
2x Ratchet Bomb - Pithing Needle, Thalia, Chalice of the Void
2x Hurkyl's Recall - Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere
1x Divert - Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach
1x Grafdigger's Cage - Reanimator, Elves
2x Relic of Progenitus - Reanimator, Jund, Loam
4x Counterbalance - Storm, Miracles
2x Back to Basics - Lands, 12Post

Does this play enough Misdirection/Divert?
Are the sideboard Counterbalances needed? Do we need 4? Would it be better to play discard when playing Underground Sea?
Is an alternative à la Jace, the Mind Sculptor needed?

Executive summary
I think I need to maybe make space for the probes again though.

Why? I agree the "free" draw is good with Labman, but I would not play 4 of them.

The black splash was sick - LDV is an insane card and in this deck it also allows you to set up the Skill Borrower kill very easily without having to have Thought Lash in play or run janky Long-Term Plans. The splash is effectively free too since you can still run so many basics. It also opens up Engineered Explosives and some other SB cards.

I think if you play the Skill Borrower LDV is the way to go.

That said, Abrupt Decay is a card that _everyone_ plays and its extremely good against this deck. Honestly I think I need to play more Misdirection/Divert if this is going to be playable. I think Misdirection might even just be more important than Force for this reason.

How many are enough? 3 or 4 copies between main and side?

cdnza

04-07-2016, 08:16 PM

Why? I agree the "free" draw is good with Labman, but I would not play 4 of them.

Knowing what your opponent is holding is really valuable when one of your combos makes you lose the game if you can't answer their answer.

hofzge

04-08-2016, 03:30 AM

Knowing what your opponent is holding is really valuable when one of your combos makes you lose the game if you can't answer their answer.

True, but instead you can play 1 more 1mana counter that ensures the combo goes through. I think this is an age-old discussion of how good or not is GP and I agree that e.g. in Storm it is one of the stronger cards. Unfortunately here we have no Cabal Therapy and if the Probe were one more counter you would not need to play around what your opponent has.

It has some use in being able to win with maniac and no open mana.
This is why I would play 3, so we are discussiong about the 4th copy which is just personal taste in my view.

Smea.gol.lum

04-08-2016, 06:42 AM

I like the list but have a more general question: Is there a consensus that the Skill Borrower Combo is needed? The version above by Smea.gol.lum plays none and when playing LDV I can see the value of having 2 plans.

I don't think that the Skill Borrower plan is necessary. However, I agree that LDV is the way to go when you stick to the Borrower plan.

Also: Is it good to play the Counterbalances main instead of side?

I can only speak for the Borrower-less version: It's amazing! I have gone up to 4. It helps tremendously against faster combo decks and helps to protect Lab Man. It has a lot of synergy with Thought Lash.
I'm not sure how good it is in your version though....could get too clunky.

Also why Surgical Extraction? Without a Snapcaster Mage Surgical seems very underwhelming and I would wlways play Relic/Nihil Spellbomb over it.

Surgical Extraction is nice because you can cantrip into it and have access to it the same turn without additional mana.

Taking tha into account how about this:

3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
3x Flooded Strand
7x Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea

4x Thought Lash
3x Laboratory Maniac
3x Skill Borrower
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Lim-Dul's Vault

4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
2x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce

Sideboard
1x Engineered Explosives - Pithing Needle, Thalia, Chalice of the Void
2x Ratchet Bomb - Pithing Needle, Thalia, Chalice of the Void
2x Hurkyl's Recall - Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere
1x Divert - Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach
1x Grafdigger's Cage - Reanimator, Elves
2x Relic of Progenitus - Reanimator, Jund, Loam
4x Counterbalance - Storm, Miracles
2x Back to Basics - Lands, 12Post

Your list looks nice. I would only replace 1 Misdirection with 1 Gitaxian Probe. It is too good not to be played as a 4-of (also went up to 4).
It lets you know if you have to keep mana open for Spell Pierce or can safely go for Ponder T1, it lets you know if the coast is clear for Lab Man. It lets you win T3 (T2 Lab Man, T3 Lash, Probe) and lets you know how fast the clock of your opponent will be, thus lets you know how heavily you have to dig for Thouht Lash.
Misdirection is dead against certain decks, so I would put 1 into the SB.

Your SB: I would replace the bombs with EE. It is crucial to be able to blow up EE the same turn you play it against cards like Decay, Revoker and Needle.
Replace Cage and Relics with Surgical Extraction (s.o.)

hofzge

04-11-2016, 08:03 AM

Thanks for the feedback!

Taking all of that into account how about this:

3x Ancient Tomb
1x City of Traitors
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
8x Island

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
3x Intuition

4x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
2x Flusterstorm
4x Counterbalance

4x Laboratory Maniac
4x Thought Lash

Sideboard
3x Back to Basics - Any sort of Port Deck
1x Repeal - Gaddock Teeg
2x Culling Scales - Needle, Revoker, Gaddock Teeg
1x Mirror of Fate - Needle Revoker
1x Divert - BUG
2x Misdirection - BUG
2x Hurkyl's Recall - Eldrazi, MUD
1x Mystic Remora - Miracles, Storm
2x Surgical Extraction - Reanimator

I know it does not play any EE, but monocolored EE is not that good and I don't want to play Underground Sea just for that.
There might be ways of building a LDV verson instead of the Intuition and running maindeck Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy as disruption instead of e.g. Counterbalance. This version would be faster, but less consistent (e.g. http://magickarten.com/d/page.php?id=deck&mode=2&ad=14726).

Spell Pierce should be better than Swan Song currently if anyone is playing Chalice of the Void / Thorn of Amethyst.

I don't know what to think of the Mirror of Fate as it costs a ton of mana and I doubt it is the right thing to do, but it gives you outs other than bounce.

The 3 BtB are a bit too much, but a ton of people play Lands in my LGS and BtB is also good against your most hated matchup BUG (be it Delver or Shardless).

cdnza

04-11-2016, 10:48 AM

Wordslinger

04-11-2016, 10:52 AM

This just in : devastation tide is a sweet sideboard card. kind of like a weird terminus when games go long.

relue8

04-11-2016, 11:04 AM

First of all let me tell you that I'm very happy to have found this thread, I have been working on a very similar deck since Innistrad came out.

When Laboratory Maniac was spoiled, I decided to make a casual deck around him, and after some time in gatherer I found Thought Lash. My deck was basically just the combo, counters and cantrips. I was pleasantly surprised at how resilient the combo was thanks to counters and instant speed drawing abilities, having expected it to be very fragile: I decided to make a competitive deck based on the combo. My first iterations were attempts at making the deck faster, I was also running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors while also adding Counterbalance as a control element. I did not like the sol lands, their drawback had often an important impact on the game and the mana acceleration did not always matter since you don't always draw the combo immediately. Besides, Counterbalance often allowed the game to go on long enough. I decided to make a control deck that uses the combo to win, not a deck trying to win with the combo as fast as possible. I think Worldslinger is right:

counterbalance main is completely absurd and should be SOP for every build of this deck going forward. Shutting off removal is huge, overloading decay is huge, having yet more game against faster combo is preaty good,etc. most decks kinda just lose to thought lash plus countertop lock, and even without top, counterbalance plus lash has a tendency to be virtual card advantage.

the second problem with adding sol lands is that doing so i believe is a misassignment of role. You will never be as fast as omnitell. You will never be as resillient as omnitell. What you can be however, is a mono blue control deck that solves all the traditional problems of the archetype by having a series of lock pieces that your opponent has to fight through to disrupt you, more countermagic than almost any other deck in the format, a combo piece that doubles as a lock piece, a almost completely invulnerable manabase, almost the entire cantrip cartel, and a combo that once assembled can win the game at instant speed at your leisure, sometimes multiple times in the face of disruption.

That's what this variant is about.

Having decided going the control route, I noticed the deck had issues against fast decks or decks that had a way to get around Counterbalance with, for example, Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls since the deck had no way to dealing with a resolved creature. I went for a Miracles shell. Anyway, here's my current list:

4x Island
1x Plains
4x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
4x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Wasteland
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

4x Laboratory Maniac
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

4x Thought Lash
4x Counterbalance

4x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Chromatic Sphere

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Misdirection
3x Terminus
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Council's Judgment

Sideboard:

3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Rest in Peace
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Helm of Obedience
1x Energy Field
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Detention Sphere
1x Pithing Needle
1x Dread of Night
1x Entreat the Angels

Now, about some of my card choices:
-Jace, Vryn's Prodigy has been very helpful. He can draw cards at instant speed. His -3 ability can be used before playing Laboratory Maniac on Force of Will or Misdirection (we can still pay for them with alternative costs, it's not flashback!) for extra protection. In very rare cases his ultimate can be an alternative win condition. I know he eats removal, but Counterbalance can protect him, and if it doesn't, it's one less removal spell you need to worry about for Laboratory Maniac.
-Chromatic Sphere: Allows us to draw a card as a mana ability (without using the stack). It also allows us to draw into Terminus during the opponent's turn.
-Wasteland: Not here to mana screw the opponent, but to get rid of troublesome lands such as Cavern of Souls, Karakas, Creeping Tar Pit, Cloudpost, Dark Depths, etc. I have found the cost of playing Wasteland to be low and it has won me a few games.
-Mikokoro, Center of the Sea: A way to draw cards at instant speed that does not cost space in the deck. Can also help draw Terminus.
-Lim-Dul's Vault: Not only does it search combo pieces, it can set up Terminus.
-Daze: I have tried other counters, but think being free is too much of an advantage. Also, its cmc is 2, so it goes better with counterbalance than a 1 cmc counter.
-Sideboard: The idea behind my sideboard is to have some silver bullets that can be fetched with Enlightened Tutor and also to be able to transform the deck to nullify hate against the deck. The new win condition becomes the Rest in Peace/Helm of Obedience combo. Rest in Peace is also a soft lock when played with Energy Field. Entreat the Angels is mostly there as an alternative win condition in case a main combo piece gets Surgical Extracted.

About the matchups, I find most of them are good. There is a small weekly Legacy tournament where I live that is usually attended by about 12-24 players. My overall score from the last times is 7-2. You usually have the same good matchups that Miracles, but thanks to your faster win condition also manage to beat some of their bad matchups such as Cloudpost. Death and Taxes was a bad matchup, but after adding Dread of Night to the sideboard it became very favorable. I think the hardest matchup is Miracles, they have a lot of counters, removal and Red Elemental Blast. Getting Counterbalance out before they do is vital, and Engineered Explosives from the sideboard can help getting rid of an opposing Counterbalance (X can be greater than 2 even if you only use 2 colors).

I had never thought about the Skill Borrower combo though, I'm very excited to try that out.

Wordslinger

04-11-2016, 11:24 AM

My first iterations were attempts at making the deck faster, I was also running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors while also adding Counterbalance as a control element. I did not like the sol lands, their drawback had often an important impact on the game and the mana acceleration did not always matter since you don't always draw the combo immediately. Besides, Counterbalance often allowed the game to go on long enough. I decided to make a control deck that uses the combo to win, not a deck trying to win with the combo as fast as possible. If we just wanted speed there are better decks, such as Sneak and Show. I think one of the fundamental strengths of this deck is that the combo plays incredibly well with the Counterbalance/Top engine, allowing Thought Lash to not be a dead card on its own: The combo lends itself perfectly to be the win condition of a control deck.

This is almost exactly what i said on page 3, and was largely ignored. Slightly salty, but i'm glad to find someone who agrees. I prefer my mana base to be rock solid, but i understand the need to remove problematic creatures may eclipse that. Just remember, you're trying to resolve a four mana enchantment. wasteland sets you back a full turn.

hofzge

04-11-2016, 11:27 AM

You need to play Misdirection effects IMO - your maindeck scoops to Abrupt Decay which every deck is playing right now. I actually think I am going to cut Counterbalance next time I play - it's a nice card but you have no way to interact with things which resolve through it, so I'd rather use the space to focus on smoother comboing.

Thing is that Misdirection is not really the good protection you make it be - if there is nothing to direct Decay to it will not help. That is a general problem and the solution is to play more instant speed draw instead of protecting the Maniac - maybe Predict as another draw spell in a pinch or like in the Miracles Lash deck Chromatic Sphere.
But I admit that maybe the 2 Flusterstorm should be sideboard and the 2 Misdirection should be main or at least a 1/1 split.

relue8

04-11-2016, 11:36 AM

This is almost exactly what i said on page 3, and was largely ignored. Slightly salty, but i'm glad to find someone who agrees. I prefer my mana base to be rock solid, but i understand the need to remove problematic creatures may eclipse that. Just remember, you're trying to resolve a four mana enchantment. wasteland sets you back a full turn.

Sorry, didn't see your post on page 3, I'll edit and quote you. I understand Wasteland sets you back a turn, but only if you use it. You can simply use it for mana as well.

Wordslinger

04-11-2016, 01:44 PM

Actually, I was referring to what happens when they wasteland you. If you're playing against a deck with wasteland, chances are they also have port or daze. A snowball effect occurs, and you may struggle to get to four mana.

hofzge

04-11-2016, 05:43 PM

4x Island
1x Plains
4x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
4x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Wasteland
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

Don't splash black and white - your manabase cries to be wasted. You can play Intuition / Impulse / Long Term Plans instead of black - the splash is totally unneeded if all you want to do is have a tutor and a way to fight DnT. If you fear DnT play a better manabase for starters. That way you become less screwed by their manalock.

relue8

04-12-2016, 09:39 AM

Don't splash black and white - your manabase cries to be wasted. You can play Intuition / Impulse / Long Term Plans instead of black - the splash is totally unneeded if all you want to do is have a tutor and a way to fight DnT. If you fear DnT play a better manabase for starters. That way you become less screwed by their manalock.

Yes, the mana base becomes more fragile. However, Lim-Dul's Vault is far better than the tutors you mention, specially in my build. Being able to set up a Terminus is huge. Being able to respond to a Counterbalance activation with it is nice. Being able to get more than one useful card is also big. Several times I had Top in play and Lim-Dul's Vault allowed me to play Terminus and follow it with Counterbalance. Intuition being more expensive is not irrelevant, it can't set up Terminus and can't let you find 2-ofs or 1-ofs. Impulse doesn't guarantee you get the card you need and Long Term Plans is way too slow if you don't have Top. Besides, you're only playing 2 Underground Sea, adding black is not making the mana base much worse given that I had already added white. I can see the point of playing mono blue, but if you're already splashing white and opening yourself up to Wasteland might as well also splash black.

hofzge

04-12-2016, 11:35 AM

Well I won't argue with you but in my view you do too many things. You can either play white and control (Terminus, Swords, Entreat, Sideboard cards) or play black and play combo (LDV, Thoughtseize, Surgical SB) or play monoblue and BtB and Sol lands. The way I see it you not only mix up colors but mix up plans - LDV for Terminus is Card disadvantage:
If you play control this makes little sense - why weaken your manabase and at the same time weaken your gameplan?

relue8

04-12-2016, 07:11 PM

I don't think this weakens the gameplan. Lim-Dul's Vault and Terminus helps you control the board and is only card disadvantage if you only hit 1 creature. Besides, you can find other things with Lim-Dul's Vault and Long Term Plans is also card disadvantage. Anyway, do you think it's better to play or not to play Skill Borrower? I have not tested with Skill Borrower yet, but it seems like he makes the deck faster without sacrificing too much protection. Is this true? I would also be concerned that Skill Borrower needs to stay alive too much time, but Counterbalance can protect him and any removal spent on Skill Borrower is not later spent on Laboratory Maniac. Any thoughts on this?

Smea.gol.lum

04-13-2016, 02:26 PM

I'm glad some more people have realized how good Thought Lash is and that this thread becomes alive a bit.

I don't think this weakens the gameplan. Lim-Dul's Vault and Terminus helps you control the board and is only card disadvantage if you only hit 1 creature. Besides, you can find other things with Lim-Dul's Vault and Long Term Plans is also card disadvantage. Anyway, do you think it's better to play or not to play Skill Borrower? I have not tested with Skill Borrower yet, but it seems like he makes the deck faster without sacrificing too much protection. Is this true? I would also be concerned that Skill Borrower needs to stay alive too much time, but Counterbalance can protect him and any removal spent on Skill Borrower is not later spent on Laboratory Maniac. Any thoughts on this?

I don't think that a black- AND white splash is necessary. If you go for a white splash, you can also go for Enlightened Tutor instead of LDV.
While the Tutor can't set up Terminus, it always finds Thought Lash which just ignores your opponents' threads and furthers your game plan.
Besides, Tutor harmonizes equally with Counterbalance.

I agree that you shouldn't play Sol lands if you go for the Miracles shell and play Wasteland on your own.
If you go for the monoblue shell like I do, they are very important though. They help to land a Thought Lash in the face of Port/Thalia/Lodestone Golem/ Daze etc. It is also nice to drop SDT T1 and dig 7 cards deep via Sol land, Impulse and SDT activation on turn 2.

Impulse has proven to be very solid as it not only digs for Thought Lash, it also informs you about the bottom 3 cards of your library which you get access to post-Lash. In this fashion you get access to 1 card immediately and to 1 card post-Lash if needed. If you play Impulse, see Maniac in the top 4 cards of your library and know that you won't shuffle your library anymore, you can put him on the bottom and grab him with Lash.
So, be careful with cracking your fetchlands!

Like I said above, I don't think that Skill Borrower is necessary as he requires you to play LDV, LTP or Enlightened Tutor (card disadvantage).
He attracts removal, true, but CB, the counterspells and all the draw spells are enough protection for Lab Man imo.

relue8

04-14-2016, 10:34 AM

What I don't like about Enlightened Tutor is that it also doesn't get Laboratory Maniac, which can also be relevant. I totally agree that sol lands should be played in the mono blue build. I have not tried Impulse, I had not considered what you mentioned, I'll give it a try. You're probably right about Skill Borrower, but the Johnny player in me will try it at least once.

hofzge

04-14-2016, 10:42 AM

I'm glad some more people have realized how good Thought Lash is and that this thread becomes alive a bit.

Way to go: It's an almost monocolored combo deck that does die to Emrakul like painter and conveniently lies in blue, gives you many means to play arounf Abrupt Decay and does not use the graveyard.

I don't think that a black- AND white splash is necessary. If you go for a white splash, you can also go for Enlightened Tutor instead of LDV.
While the Tutor can't set up Terminus, it always finds Thought Lash which just ignores your opponents' threads and furthers your game plan.
Besides, Tutor harmonizes equally with Counterbalance.

If you want to play a black version, then that gives you access to discard and LDV (which also helps find your sideboard).

Land (20)

3x Ancient Tomb

1x City of Traitors
3x Flooded Strand
6x Island
3x Polluted Delta
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea

Enchantment (8)

4x Counterbalance
4x Thought Lash

Instant (14)

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Lim-Dul's Vault
3x Spell Pierce

Sorcery (10)

3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize

Artifact (4)

4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (4)

4x Laboratory Maniac

Sideboard (15)

3x Back to Basics
2x Devastation Tide
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Misdirection
1x Mystic Remora
2x Surgical Extraction

Impulse has proven to be very solid as it not only digs for Thought Lash, it also informs you about the bottom 3 cards of your library which you get access to post-Lash. In this fashion you get access to 1 card immediately and to 1 card post-Lash if needed. If you play Impulse, see Maniac in the top 4 cards of your library and know that you won't shuffle your library anymore, you can put him on the bottom and grab him with Lash.
So, be careful with cracking your fetchlands!

So maybe the third LDV could also be an Impulse. I like how both are :2:s for Counterbalance

Like I said above, I don't think that Skill Borrower is necessary as he requires you to play LDV, LTP or Enlightened Tutor (card disadvantage).
He attracts removal, true, but CB, the counterspells and all the draw spells are enough protection for Lab Man imo.

Also you have tons of ways to draw cards for free (Gitaxian Probe, SDT) and at instant speed (Brainstorm, SDT) so this should be less of an issue.

relue8

04-14-2016, 02:02 PM

I like the blue black list with discard, it could be an interesting direction. I'm not a huge fan of Gitaxian probe though, specially when playing black and having access to discard. I think what makes Gitaxian Probe good is seeing your opponent's hand, not drawing a card (I mean it's good, but not very useful for winning). Instant speed card drawing is not only good because it answers removal, it also allows the following line: with Thought Lash in play, cast Laboratory Maniac; when it resolves hold priority, exile your deck and draw a card. If you're using a sorcery to draw a card, you'd have to wait until all the damage prevention abilities from Thought Lash resolve and then you can cast it, but that leaves Laboratory Maniac unprotected. You can instead exile your library first, cast Laboratory Maniac and as it resolves you gain priority and draw a card. However this is very risky, as if you don't manage to resolve the Maniac you just lost. I'm not sure, but Peek might actually be better than Gitaxian Probe for this deck (if Thought Lash is in play it means you have enough mana for Maniac plus Peek), and like I said, I think if we have black we should just play more discard spells. I also think Toxic Deluge should be included in the black version.

I'm also curious to know how Mystic Remora works against Miracles, drawing a card every time they cast a counter or removal spell is huge. Has anyone played the matchup enough to have an idea? My experience against them is the following: if they get Counter/Top you're in trouble as they can probably always counter one of your win conditions; and if they don't, even if you have Counter/Top, when you're going off and Counterbalance becomes useless as you no longer have a library, they just have too many answers: Swords to Plowshares, Red Elemental Blast, Snapcaster Mage targeting any of the previous spells, instant speed Terminus and sometimes even Venser, Shaper Savant, plus a lot of counters for you counters. I used to play Reparations, but I think it's too expensive for what it does. Chromatic Sphere has helped, but it does nothing to resolve your combo.

hofzge

04-15-2016, 05:02 AM

I like the blue black list with discard, it could be an interesting direction. I'm not a huge fan of Gitaxian probe though, specially when playing black and having access to discard. I think what makes Gitaxian Probe good is seeing your opponent's hand, not drawing a card (I mean it's good, but not very useful for winning). Instant speed card drawing is not only good because it answers removal, it also allows the following line: with Thought Lash in play, cast Laboratory Maniac; when it resolves hold priority, exile your deck and draw a card. If you're using a sorcery to draw a card, you'd have to wait until all the damage prevention abilities from Thought Lash resolve and then you can cast it, but that leaves Laboratory Maniac unprotected. You can instead exile your library first, cast Laboratory Maniac and as it resolves you gain priority and draw a card. However this is very risky, as if you don't manage to resolve the Maniac you just lost. I'm not sure, but Peek might actually be better than Gitaxian Probe for this deck (if Thought Lash is in play it means you have enough mana for Maniac plus Peek), and like I said, I think if we have black we should just play more discard spells. I also think Toxic Deluge should be included in the black version.

I somehow agree that Gitaxian Probe does little to further your plan and that the information is the main draw towards it. In the version mentioned above I only play 3 discard spells and so some additional "peeks" are welcome. You may be right that the card Peek is better as it is Instant carddraw. I am also still trying to include at least 1 Predict or a Thought Scour as they are also instants that allow for tricks with Counterbalance.

I'm also curious to know how Mystic Remora works against Miracles, drawing a card every time they cast a counter or removal spell is huge. Has anyone played the matchup enough to have an idea? My experience against them is the following: if they get Counter/Top you're in trouble as they can probably always counter one of your win conditions; and if they don't, even if you have Counter/Top, when you're going off and Counterbalance becomes useless as you no longer have a library, they just have too many answers: Swords to Plowshares, Red Elemental Blast, Snapcaster Mage targeting any of the previous spells, instant speed Terminus and sometimes even Venser, Shaper Savant, plus a lot of counters for you counters. I used to play Reparations, but I think it's too expensive for what it does. Chromatic Sphere has helped, but it does nothing to resolve your combo.

Exactly: Once you can land Mystic Remora and Laboratory Maniac you can just fire away - It is another of those failsafes for drawing a card after Laboratory Maniac with the nice added bonus of making it totally impossible for the opponent to interact (Well except for Cabal Pit or Barbarian Ring or Tabernacle at Pendrell vale :tongue:)

Technics

04-22-2016, 11:12 AM

I somehow agree that Gitaxian Probe does little to further your plan and that the information is the main draw towards it. In the version mentioned above I only play 3 discard spells and so some additional "peeks" are welcome. You may be right that the card Peek is better as it is Instant carddraw. I am also still trying to include at least 1 Predict or a Thought Scour as they are also instants that allow for tricks with Counterbalance.

Exactly: Once you can land Mystic Remora and Laboratory Maniac you can just fire away - It is another of those failsafes for drawing a card after Laboratory Maniac with the nice added bonus of making it totally impossible for the opponent to interact (Well except for Cabal Pit or Barbarian Ring or Tabernacle at Pendrell vale :tongue:)

I still think Chromatic Sphere is better. Just win the game and dodge ALL answers.

cdnza

04-26-2016, 04:05 PM

Hello world. Might try a Borrower-less version tonight. Might also just play a "real deck" though lol. Anyway, I just drew up a list. Interested in trying maindeck Culling Scales too. If anyone has any ideas in the next 5 hours or so I can change up the list before I go.

10 island
8 fetch
2 crystal vein (this could be ancient tomb or city of traitors i guess)

4 thought lash
4 lab man
1 chromatic sphere

4 sensei
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 predict
2 impulse

4 counterbalance
4 force of will
2 misdirection
2 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm

2 culling scales

I am also considering trying the black splash again, since Thoughtseize is so much better than Gitaxian Probe in this deck. Then I would play:

-2 vein
+2 usea

-2 impulse
-2 scales
-1 sphere
-1 spell pierce
-1 ???
+3 LDV
+4 Thoughtseize

or similar, gaining access to Extirpate/Toxic Deluge/etc in the board too. Not sure.

relue8

04-27-2016, 10:51 AM

I still think Chromatic Sphere is better. Just win the game and dodge ALL answers.

I agree that Chromatic Sphere is better than Mystic Remora, even though Mystic Remora is better for fighting a counter war.

I have been testing the Skill Borrower version and agree with most people that it's better not to play her. You sometimes draw both Laboratory Maniac and Skill Borrower, or even worse, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. Skill Borrower is also very fragile because she doesn't have haste. Some people have proposed playing Thermopod to solve this issue, but this would only work if you're lucky and Thermopod is above Kiki-Jiki in your library; and you add the extra risk of also drawing Termopod. I think the card slots used for the Skill Borrower package are better used by playing more control and making sure that you actually win when you play your usual combo. However, the Skill Borrower version does have one advantage: it is faster. I'm not sure if it might be worth it to include the Skill Borrower package in the sideboard.

Smea.gol.lum

04-28-2016, 12:44 PM

Hey guys, here 's my newest list:

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Impulse
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Terminus

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
2 Shelldock Isle

SB:
1 Culling Scales
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Misthollow Griffin
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blood Moon
1 Sacred Guide

Once I added CB to the main deck, the slower the deck became and the more I wanted other control tools like Terminus.
Now the deck looks like Miracles with an alternative win condition and Thought Lash instead of Jace. The question is if this deck is better or worse than Miracles.

In case of an even board state, Lash is worse than Jace, but this changes post board sometimes, when you bring in the Griffins.
The beauty of Lash is that you can drop it when you are far behind unlike Jace which immediately dies.

Shelldock Isle feels like a 2 for 1 (land and spell) and is a great addition to this deck.

The flex slots are 3 Impulse and 2 Enlightened Tutor and 1 perhaps 1 Lab Man.

The sideboard is full of silver bullets that you can grab with Enlightened Tutor.
Sacred Guide (hot card) comes in against Show and Tell decks where you board all white cards out.
Blood Moon is against Lands and Boseiju.
Cursed Scroll (untested, if someone knows a better card, pls let me know) helps against Gaddock Teeg which you have no out to pre-board without Swords to Plowshares.

relue8

04-28-2016, 06:43 PM

I believe the advantage of this deck over Miracles is that you can win faster. When Miracles fails to establish control and faces a clock it will usually lose, but you won't as Thought Lash can save you. Miracles loses to decks with inevitability like Cloudpost, but you don't. The price you pay is playing less control and playing Laboratory Maniac, which is a dead card on its own. I think playing less control is ok, you don't need it as much since you win faster and your combo is very well protected as is. Sometimes you draw 2 Laboratory Maniacs which is bothersome, but then you can just exile one to Force of Will or Misdirection, or Brainstorm and shuffle one back in, so this is not a very big issue. The casting cost of Laboratory Maniac is 3, which is also helpful when you're playing Counterbalance. Because of this, I believe the benefits of playing this over Miracles are well worth their cost. Additionally, at a large tournament no one knows what you're up to and the surprise factor can also help you win.

I love the Shelldock Isles from your list, one thing to notice is that they also let you set up the bottom of your library, so you can exile a Brainstorm and send Laboratory Maniac to the bottom. You then exile enough cards with Thought Lash to draw the Maniac and you even have a Brainstorm ready to fight against removal! I think you should take out the Misthollow Griffins though, you're never gonna manage to deal 20 damage with them. I also dislike Sacred Guide, since exiling your library is part of the effect of his ability and not of the cost, you can't answer removal against Laboratory Maniac by drawing a card. If you're playing Sacred Guide because of Gaddock Teeg or Pithing Needle, I think you're better off playing something that gets rid of them. Also, I don't think you need a lot of sideboard options against Show and Tell, you usually have a very good matchup: just play Laboratory Maniac as soon as possible, they don't have removal, and when they play Show and Tell let it resolve and put Thought Lash in play. You usually have enough control to prevent them from going off before you can do that.

Smea.gol.lum

04-29-2016, 08:11 PM

You're completely right about Shelldock Isle. I added Impulse as a 3-of for the same reason.

There is basically no skill limit for this deck. In addition to the top cards of your library which you have to remember for CB, it is very valuable to know the bottom cards of your library which you get access to post-Lash.
Knowing that a 1-cmc card is on the bottom, you can safely win against multiple Swords to Plowshares/ Bolts via Brainstorm for example(CB in play).

I'm not sure about the Griffins either. One thing is clear, however: it sucks to lose against Slaughter Games and discard+Surcigal Extraction.
That's why I'm testing the Griffins.

I also added 2 Ancient Tombs recently because they speed up the deck considerably and help against Rishadan Port from Lands and Death n Taxes.
It is also nice to play T2 Impulse+SDT or T1 SDT into T2 Impulse+SDT activation (digging 7 cards deep).

relue8

04-29-2016, 10:50 PM

If what you want is an alternate win condition, you could run Helm of Obedience. You already have enlightened tutors and rest in peace in your sideboard, it's way better than the griffins.

gngpostalsrvc

05-01-2016, 11:52 AM

Smea.gol.lum, what did you cut for the Ancient Tombs? Also, how about Oblivion Ring as a tutorable answer for Gaddok Teeg?

Michael Keller

05-01-2016, 12:48 PM

Smea.gol.lum

05-01-2016, 01:10 PM

Smea.gol.lum, what did you cut for the Ancient Tombs? Also, how about Oblivion Ring as a tutorable answer for Gaddok Teeg?

Hey,

I also thought about Oblivion Ring, but it will never be amazing, only o.k. Enlightened Tutors felt weak due to the inherent card disadvantage, so I cut them for 2 Swords to Plowshares, which is probably the best answer for Gaddock Teeg.

I cut 1 Plains (we only run 5 white cards MD, so 2 Plains seems excessive) and 1 Terminus, which you don't want to see in your opening hand.
With 2 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Thought Lash as answers to creatures, 3 Terminus should be enough.

The 2 Tombs feel like a really good addition and I think that I 've nearly reached the optimal configuration (sideboard still needs work though):

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Impulse
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Ancient Tomb

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Misthollow Griffin
2 Rest in Peace
2 Blood Moon
1 Sacred Guide

It is odd, but the Griffins were really good in some games, so I will keep testing them. In one game against Miracles, my opponent let Thought Lash resolve and in response to his Wear/Tear I exiled all but 21 cards from my library giving me access to 2 Griffins and a hidden Shelldock spell next turn and ultimately resulting in a win.
Against decks running Deathrite Shaman and Goyf, I usually bring in 2 Griffins along with RiP as they can't be removed anymore once RiP enters the battlefield.

Some general thoughts:
Like Miracles, we run the strong shell of FoW, Brainstorm, SDT, CB and Terminus, but additionally we have got a better matchup versus Eldrazi and Lands.
In G1, nearly no deck has an answer for Thought Lash, so against fair decks dropping it often spells GG.

Normally, running so few win conditions results in problems finding them, but with SDT (turning Lash into a digging machine), Shelldock Isle, Ponder, Brainstorm and Impulse that is not the case.

The deck is very hard to pilot (even more difficult than Miracles because you also have to remember the bottom cards of your library) and I am learning a lot in every game I play. I will take the deck to a tournament soon and hope that I won't make too many mistakes. I'm already looking forward to the flabbergasted views of my opponents when they get killed by Maniac and their insults :)

cdnza

05-03-2016, 01:44 PM

Looking forward to trying a list like this. I did toy with the idea of just running Terminus since we already have SDT etc but I figured at that point why not just play Miracles? Like, 2 Jace and 2 Entreat is a lot less slots than our 8 combo pieces :p

There was an old thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22130-Deck-U-x-Thought-Lash) about this deck too - figured I should post the link in case people want to go and look through some older lists.

@Smea.gol.lum I might try a list similar to yours this evening but with a couple of Predict (probably cutting 1 Pierce and 1 Impulse). Do you have any insights about sideboarding with the white splash? How relevant do you think the REBs are? If its just for Miracles there must be some more flexible cards we could use in that M/U.

Finn

05-03-2016, 04:57 PM

EDIT: Ack. I'm getting old. I confused my old decks.

Nothing to see here. Carry on.

Smea.gol.lum

05-03-2016, 06:21 PM

@Smea.gol.lum I might try a list similar to yours this evening but with a couple of Predict (probably cutting 1 Pierce and 1 Impulse). Do you have any insights about sideboarding with the white splash? How relevant do you think the REBs are? If its just for Miracles there must be some more flexible cards we could use in that M/U.

I think that the REBs are important against Miracles, because u need to be able to remove CB and Jace.
Blood Moon is also important against all sorts of lands.
As I said, many of my SB choices are debatable.
Sacred Guide could be cut e.g.
I splashed red because it has proven to give Miracles players the edge in the mirror and against other blue decks.
Against decks without a clock like miracles or fast Combo decks against which I go into control mode, I usually side out 1 Maniac.
Against Miracles I take out removal and bring in EEs, REBs and Flusterstorms.
Misdirection against BUG and discard in General.
EEs could be switched for Wear/Tear.

Michael Keller

05-04-2016, 10:12 PM

Hurkyl's Recall ? Will likely also get rid of some of their actual threats.

Rebuild should be better in most instances, because you have the ability to cycle into the win on top of bouncing all artifacts.

Michael Keller

05-07-2016, 04:12 PM

Just Top 8ed a Mythic Games 2K with..."The Maniac."

Smea.gol.lum

05-07-2016, 05:55 PM

Just Top 8ed a Mythic Games 2K with..."The Maniac."

Awesome! What list did you play? My name for the deck is "Thought Lab".
Since the deck doesn't run Skill Borrower, it requires a new thread imo. Would it be o.k. if I did the primer?
I will take the deck to a tournament soon and would wait with the primer until then.

Michael Keller

05-07-2016, 07:53 PM

For reference, here was the list I played to a Top 8 finish at Mythic Games 2K Legacy event:

//Main
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Skill Borrower
4 Thought Lash
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
3 Swan Song
3 Impulse
2 Misdirection
2 Long-Term Plans
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Mirror of Fate
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 City of Traitors
3 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Flooded Strand

//SB
3 Blood Moon
3 Mystic Remora
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Mirror of Fate
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hibernation

I'll discuss more later, but it was extremely solid all day.

relue8

05-10-2016, 08:24 AM

Has anyone tried Cavern of Souls? It seems like it could be helpful, specially in the Skill Borrower build (both Skill Borrower and Laboratory Maniac share creature types).

Blastoderm

05-11-2016, 02:57 PM

Has anyone tried Cavern of Souls? It seems like it could be helpful, specially in the Skill Borrower build (both Skill Borrower and Laboratory Maniac share creature types).

Too many colorless sources with 4-6 sol lands.

Smea.gol.lum

05-11-2016, 07:06 PM

Michael Keller

05-12-2016, 10:44 AM

Nice list!

How were Mirror of Fate and Chromatic Sphere MD?
How did Mystic Remora perform?

1. Mirror of Fate was disgusting. It was arguably one of the best cards in the deck. It felt like Memory Jar. Round one I found it to win a game when an opponent had Needle out on Lash. My opponent playing Jund Thoughtseized me and Surgicaled my Borrowers. I found Mirror of Fate, and after exiling cards with Thought Lash stacked the top of my deck (getting those Borrowers back and a Maniac) and killed him.

2. Sphere was a nice hedge to have, but never really popped up. I used it once with a Sol Land out to produce blue mana, which was nice.

3. Mystic Remora pulled big weight against Jund. My opponent kept trying to fire off spells, and I kept drawing. I was more than happy to pay the upkeep, because I just kept stocking my hand (had two Remoras out at one point). By then he was buried under card disadvantage and I just killed him.

Thought Lash does an amazing impersonation of Demonic Consultation with Skill Borrower out. How gross.

Smea.gol.lum

05-12-2016, 06:08 PM

1. Mirror of Fate was disgusting. It was arguably one of the best cards in the deck. It felt like Memory Jar. Round one I found it to win a game when an opponent had Needle out on Lash. My opponent playing Jund Thoughtseized me and Surgicaled my Borrowers. I found Mirror of Fate, and after exiling cards with Thought Lash stacked the top of my deck (getting those Borrowers back and a Maniac) and killed him.

Why did you also get the Borrowers back? Wouldn't it have been better just to get Maniac and Chromatic Sphere back? I would love to hear how the tournament went for you in detail (especially how you boarded and which decks you faced).

I will take the deck to a tournament on Sunday and don't know yet wether I'll roll with the Borrower-version or the Borrower-less version.
How was Swan Song? I see problems in the ANT and Grixis MU when your opponent gets a free creature that he can sac for Therapy. I'll probably stick to Spell Pierce.
If I choose the Borrower version, I' ll probably make the following MD changes:
-1 Chromatic Sphere
-1 Volcanic Island
-3 Swan Song
-1 Skill Borrower

+1 Ponder
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Shelldock Isle

Michael Keller

05-12-2016, 11:21 PM

Why did you also get the Borrowers back? Wouldn't it have been better just to get Maniac and Chromatic Sphere back? I would love to hear how the tournament went for you in detail (especially how you boarded and which decks you faced).

I will take the deck to a tournament on Sunday and don't know yet wether I'll roll with the Borrower-version or the Borrower-less version.
How was Swan Song? I see problems in the ANT and Grixis MU when your opponent gets a free creature that he can sac for Therapy. I'll probably stick to Spell Pierce.
If I choose the Borrower version, I' ll probably make the following MD changes:
-1 Chromatic Sphere
-1 Volcanic Island
-3 Swan Song
-1 Skill Borrower

+1 Ponder
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Shelldock Isle

Skill Borrower was there with Kiki-Jiki in exile in the event I wanted to go for the alternate win. I had protection in my hand, anyhow.

Swan Song was extremely good. It's a straight hard-counter, and that's what you need. Cards like Spell Pierce - especially in the late game are bad protecting either of your combos. It's also very good against any deck that accelerates into a broken sorcery (i.e. Infernal Tutor, Natural Order, etc.). More often than not the Bird token never mattered. As I was able to lock down the games with Lash and win from there.

Shelldock Isle just seems narrow. I don't like having a land enter the battlefield tapped, and it becomes even more of a liability in a Wasteland-dominated meta. I actually prefer Island straight-up to it. What made the deck work were the intrinsic synergies, but also just the free-flow aspect of how it played. I played the deck very straight-forward, and was rewarded as such.

I can see cutting the Sphere, though.

Smea.gol.lum

05-15-2016, 06:41 PM

Just went 7-2-1 at the MKM series event near Frankfurt (22nd out of ca 400 players) with the following list:

4 Thought Lash
4 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Counterbalance

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Impulse
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Ancient Tomb

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Misthollow Griffin
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear
1 Culling Scales
1 Blood Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor

0-2 vs BURG Goodie Deck
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Eldrazi
2-1 vs Storm
2-0 vs Stoneblade
2-1 vs Death n Taxes
0-2 vs RUG Delver
2-0 vs Storm
2-1 vs Mono R Sneak Attack
1-1-1 vs Death n Taxes

Made a lot of play mistakes in the beginning of the event, but became more and more confidant over time.

Shelldock Isle was awesome throughout the whole day. Felt like a 2 for 1.
Culling Scales out of the board was great against Death n Taxes.
The Griffins won me the only game I boarded them in. Good quota, but not sure about them.
Impulse was mediocre at best and is probably the weakest card of the deck.

Perhaps, it is best to cut the 3 Impulse, some Ponders, 1 Maniac and add Cliques and other win conditions to lower the dependence on Thought Lash.

Will write a little tournament report tomorrow ;)

Wordslinger

05-24-2016, 10:56 AM

Are any of you going to columbus?

ESG

06-17-2016, 03:20 PM

This deck appears to have generated some interest in Thought Lash, although the MTG Stocks writer doesn't seem aware that people are actually playing this card and winning with it.
http://www.mtgstocks.com/news/118

cdnza

06-21-2016, 07:55 PM

Going to try a list based on smea.gol.lum's last Miracle-style one this evening. My first time playing legacy in about 2 months so I wanted to play something fun! Will report back with how it goes - just a local 3-round weekly tournament. I think my maindeck is the same but with Predict over Impulse and an extra Island and Plains over the Shelldock Isles.

cdnza

06-22-2016, 03:07 PM

Deck was good.

R1 - Storm
G1 - My opponent duresses my CB, then also duresses my FoW. Seeing that I only have a Spell Pierce, he decides to go for it but misplays and there is a window where I can Pierce to deny him enough mana to kill me. He then has to spend many turns recovering but by then I have CB, Top and LabMan in play, so once I finally draw a Lash it's over.
SB - I board in two Flusterstorms and a Mystic Remora for my 3x Terminus. I keep my two Swords to Plowshares in because I suspect he is on Xantids.
G2 - My t1 Ponder reveals two CBs. He elects not to try to kill me on his t2 having not seen Duress/Probe, so I untap and slam CB knowing that a 1-drop is on top. Next turn I draw the 1-drop which happens to be a Top, and over the next turn or two I play out the second Counterbalance. He resolves a Gitaxian Probe at one point seeing that I have a Flusterstorm and Pierce in hand and the game is basically over.
2-0

R2 - Burn
G1 - My opponent gets to me to 1 life and then I play Lash. He reads the card. It's quite amusing. He tries to play on and untaps and casts some burn spells, causing me to exile some number of cards from my deck. I untap and play LabMan, flip my deck and tap my Divining Top. I actually didn't play around Fireblast here so that could've been embarrassing!
SB - I board in a Flusterstorm and a Misdirection for a Terminus and a Predict or something. Not 100% sure, might have been some other boarding.
G2 - I play t1 Top, t2 CB, t4 Lash. I play only basics so I can't randomly die to PoP before t4. I have a 1-drop on top when I cast the Lash, so he can't randomly win with REB.
4-0

R3 - Tezzeret
We ID but play it out for funsies.
G1 - I keep a hand with no control cards but all the combo pieces and two Forces, so figure I can just race? He makes a Chalice and Thopter/Sword alongside a mox and a signet or something. I'm not that impressed since I have a Thought Lash but then he plays Tezzeret so I have to win on my turn otherwise his -4 kills me. I fail to do so through his countermagic.
SB - I board in a Wear/Tear, my 2 Culling Scales and 2 Pyroblasts for... my Swords to Plowshares, a Terminus and a Predict or something like that. I should've brought in my 2 Rest In Peace in retrospect, but didn't for whatever reason.
G2 - I have a more normal Top into CB opener and he doesn't do a lot. I let him resolve a Chalice. There's a turn where I awkwardly fetched a Tundra in case I needed to Terminus for his Thopters and he proceeded to instantly Wasteland it. Fortunately I am holding Ancient Tomb so I untap, play Tomb and kill him with Lash + LabMan + Top with backup.
G3 - I mull to 5 cards, while my opponent plays t1 land mox signet, t2 Tezzeret. I make some effort (There's always the chance I can just randomly kill him) but I'm just sooo far behind. I resolve Culling Scales on 3 but my opponent has triple Chalice which he can play out to protect his other permanents.
5-2

Deck seems surprisingly fine. I just like slamming Thought Lash and having my opponent say "uhhhhh can i read that pls" :laugh:

Smea.gol.lum

06-22-2016, 07:01 PM

Since the last tournament, my list has transformed more and more into Miracles to the point where I have to ask myself if Miracles is the better deck or not.

Here's my list for reference:

4 Thought Lash
3 Laboratory Maniac

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Shelldock Isle

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear // Tear
1 Snapcaster Mage

It seems to have a better matchup vs Eldrazi due to Lash but a worse matchup vs Delver decks due to Wasteland targeting Shelldock Isle.

Griffins are to slow sometimes because Lash puts a clock on yourself. I replaced them with Mentors.

Fallen_Empire

06-23-2016, 11:45 AM

relue8

06-25-2016, 01:14 PM

Took the deck to Eternal Extravaganza last weekend and went 6-3, I won $100. I was playing the Sill Borrower package on the sideboard and took a loss because of my misunderstanding of the combo. I thought the combo was immune to removal once Skill Borrower doesn't have summoning sickness, but I was wrong. If the Borrower is targeted by removal in response to the ability activation, the ability will fizzle and the copy will not be made. I guess most of you guys already knew this and avoided the combo because of that. Anyway, I was very happy with how the deck performed. Shelldock Isle is just insane, was very happy to include it in my deck. Mikokoro, Center of the Sea was also awesome, when games go long being able to have the extra instant speed draw effect can change the outcome of the game. I also used it at some point to draw a Terminus I had set up with Brainstorm and to dig a card deeper with top and found the Force of Will that I needed. The tournament report is below (I didn't take a lot of notes so there might be a couple mistakes):

Round 1: Shardless BUG (2-0)
Some how I managed to win game 1 even though my opponent resolved 2 ancestral visions. In game 2 I misdirected his hymn to tourach which depleated his hand and let me combo off safely.

Round 2: Sneak and Show (2-1)
Game 1 I had Counterbalance/Top lock out with Thought Lash and Maniac on top, so I could just counter Show and Tell and Sneak Attack. When I finally got another Maniac I played him at won by attacking with him because I didn't want to risk it. Game 2 he had a very fast combo and he won the counter war. Game 3 I had Counterbalance out and used Lim-dul's vault to counter Show and Tell and find the Maniac I needed. Won after that.

Round 3: UR Delver (1-2)
Don't remember much about this other than I won game 1 and lost game 2. On game 3 I basically milled myself to go for the Skill Borrower kill and this is the loss I talked about.

Round 4: Dark Maverick (2-0)
Won game 1 easily. Game 2 he had a Jitte out, so it was grindier. When he was in lethal range he made the mistake of removing all the counters from the jitte, I sworded his creature and played Thought Lash after that.

Round 5: Storm (2-0)
Game 1 at some point he starts going off and even though I have the counterbalance/top lock I can't manage to stop it. He plays infernal tutor, which resolves, but he gets ad nauseam which I can counter by revealing misdirection. I don't remember game 2 very well.

Round 6: Elfs (2-1)
I won game 1, don't remember the details. Game 2 I cast Terminus during my turn and got killed on the next turn by craterhoof behemoth. Game 3 went to extra turns, I had rest in peace with energy field out and well as the main combo, but no way to draw cards, so the game was a draw. My opponent very nicely conceded to me because he had no outs.

Round 7: 4 Color Delver (1-2)
Game 1 was extremely tight, I don't remember the details but I managed to stabilize at 1 life and win the game. Game 2 we both mulliganed to 5 and I stupidly kept a hand with only one land, tundra, and a top. Tundra got destroyed by wasteland and I didn't find a land for 4 turns or so, he got game 2. Game 3 was very close, can't remember the details but he ended up winning.

Round 8: BG Depths (0-2)
Game 1 he got a turn 3 marit lage token and I didn't find terminus nor swords. Game 2 went longer, but I didn't see any terminuses or swords all game long either. He got Liliana at some point at that really hurt, he also got game 2.

Round 9: Lands (2-1)
Game 1 was painfully long. He had 4 rishadan ports (some were copies made with thespian's stage) and enough lands to use them all. He also had grove/punishing fire, but after enough time I had chromatic sphere and enough mana to play thought lash, so I got the game. Game 2 he managed to get marit lage after tapping my plains with port to play around the terminus I had on top. In game 3 I was afraid of krosan grip, so when thought lash resolved I held priority and exiled everything but 2 cards to play around it. I played maniac next turn and won.

Besides from removing the Skill Borrower package from the sideboard, I was happy with the deck. I think Liliana is a troublesome card, and even though I didn't play against miracles, in my previous testing the match is not very favorable. Surgical extraction is also a very scary card to see. I will test swapping the borrower package by a mirror of fate (against surgical extraction, also helpful for other sutuations), a jace, the mind sculptor (negates the discard effect of liliana, could be useful against miracles and as an alternative win condition) and 2 bitterblossom (really excited to try theses against miracles). The list I played was the following:

Creatures:
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Laboratory Maniac

Instant and sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Misdirection
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

Enchantments:
4 Counterbalance
4 Thought Lash

Artifacts:
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Shelldock Isle
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Skill Borrower
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Detention Sphere
1 Dread of Night
1 Energy Field
2 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

relue8

07-06-2016, 09:25 AM

I tried the sideboard changes I mentioned last time (1 Mirror of Fate, 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor and 2 Bitterblossom). I'm not a huge fan of Mirror of Fate, it's very expensive an is good only in fringe situations. Jace and Bitterblossom have been great though. Bitterblossom is good against Liliana of the Veil, Miracles and slow decks in general. It also provides chump blockers if played early enough, making you save life instead of losing. It's also nice against lands, it provides blockers against their 20/20 token and if they have recurring Punishing Fire, you just get the life back and they have to keep spending mana on it. Jace has been my favorite alt-win condition so far, he can really take control of a game, and even when your opponent manages to deal with him, it usually takes them a lot of resources. I switched the Mirror of Fate for a second Jace and took the deck to a small tournament yesterday and went 3-0, beating Esper Stoneblade, Shardless BUG and Lands, I really like this sideboard configuration. I know most of you don't like splashing black, but I'd recommend to give it a try at least once.

Fallen_Empire

07-09-2016, 02:41 AM

Bone Mask might be an interesting choice for a sideboard card. You can use it to prevent damage and also help mill.

relue8

07-30-2016, 09:13 AM

I have been trying different alternative win conditions in the sideboard that would be good against Miracles and Delver. So far I've been using a Stoneforge Mystic/ Batterskull package, and although I still need some more testing I've been happy with it. It avoids Red Elemental Blast, and Swords to Plowshares is the only removal spell that partially deals with it. This came up once, but it was really nice: I had Stoneforge and a Batterskull in play and was facing an army made by Young Pyromancer. I activated Stoneforge's ability, responded by bouncing Batterskull and drawing into Terminus; so Batterskull still ends up in play and attached to a germ.

As an aside, maybe everyone was aware of this, but I just realized a nice interaction. Let's assume we have a sorcery speed draw effect (say Ponder) and an instant speed one (say Brainstorm). We have Thought Lash in play and Lab Man in our hand, and let's also assume our opponent has a removal spell available. If we cast the Maniac and exile everything once he resolves and respond to the Thought Lash abilities with Brainstorm, that gives our opponent a chance to kill Lab Man. Another thing we could do is exile everything before playing the Maniac, and once he resolves we cast Ponder first, the issue with this line is that if Lab Man gets countered we lose. We can do better though, we play Lab Man and exile everything but don't do anything until the damage prevention abilities resolve. Once they have, we cast Ponder. This forces our opponent to use the removal, and we respond to it with Brainstorm. If they use the removal before all the prevention abilities resolve, we respond with Brainstorm and we also end up winning.

UB Control

08-01-2016, 02:25 AM

Esper Maniac Miracles

Creatures:
4 Laboratory Maniac

Planeswalker:
1 Jace, the Mindscuptor

Instant and sorceries:
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Misdirection
4 Terminus

Enchantments:
4 Counterbalance
4 Thought Lash

Artifacts:
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
1 Plains
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Flusterstorm
2 Rest in Peace

Nouille

09-04-2016, 11:55 AM

Hello guys. I want to try this deck in a real event, after kicked ass online with it. I am still unsure about some choices however, and I'd be gratefull if you can help !

My current list :

3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Tundra

4 Thought Lash
3 Laboratory Maniac
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Chromatic Sphere
2 Spell Pierce
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Lantern of Insight
2 Terminus
2 Predict

SB: 2 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 2 Terminus
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Plains
SB: 1 Monastery Mentor

I'm quite happy with it, and I absolutely love Lantern of Insight, and its interaction with Thought Lash.

My interrogations :
- Counterbalances are in the sideboard, is it worth to bring them in main deck ? If I do it, I don't know what I have to cut + I have the feeling that i'm turning into a 100% control deck with a combo win, instead of a 100% combo deck with some control elements.

- I use 2 slots for counter others than FoW. Currently those are Spell Pierce, but I don't know if it's the best choice. I used to run Dazes, and the tempo lost on land bounces was terrible. Maybe I could change for Counterpells ?

- 2x Gitaxian Probes is awesome because it can allow to work with complete information (in combination with lantern), which is crucial in this deck because when we combo off, there is no other solutions than win or lose on the spot. It is cool also because it allow to freely draw for win with maniac. I wonder if playing it as a 4 slot is a good idea...

- I opted for the 2-2 split ponder/predict. But, to me, run 2 ponder is like a crime...

- I am wondering also if 1 or 2 more sol lands and/or lotus petal could be a good ad to the deck...

- I'm not convinced of the side. I fear pithing needle a lot (on thought lash, it's gg) and in side I only have 2 disanchant and 1 mentor to overcome this. Hurkyl's recall is not really a solution because it bounces sensei top...

Any propositions ?

relue8

09-05-2016, 11:01 AM

Lantern of Insight is interesting, exiling cards after paying for the cumulative upkeep lets you chose your draw but 4 seems excessive, specially because lantern doesn't do much if Top is already out. An interesting direction to explore would be keeping the lanterns and adding Codex Shredder and play something similar to Lantern Control in Modern.

I have found Counterbalance to be great in the main, it allows you to play long games when you don't draw Thought Lash.

About your issue with needle, I like playing 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor as an alternative win condition and having access to Council's Judgement and/or Engineered Explosives. I've also been playing a 2 Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull package in the sideboard, it's a great alternative win condition that doesn't die to removal as easily as the Maniac or Mentor and you can even play around artifact removal by leaving 3 mana open to bounce Batterskull. Also, Needle naming Thought Lash is not game over, you can always refuse to pay the cumulative upkeep, you just need enough protection for the Maniac.

Finally, I also think you should be playing Flusterstorm in the sideboard, the card is amazing for winning counter wars.

Nouille

09-05-2016, 02:34 PM

Thanks a lot for the relevant advices !

I cutted one enlightened tutor and the chromatic sphere to add 2 cb from the side in main deck. I also cutted a tundra for the basic plain which was in the side.
The side is still very uncertain and need some work, but there is now 3 free slots. As you said, i'll probably add 1/2 flusterstorm and maybe some other alt win-con (JtMS ?) or karakas.

However i want to keep the playset of lantern. With lash, it's like a tutor for everything (and especially maniac), and additional copies can always be used to shuffle our deck or the opponent's one. 4 tops + 4 lantern almost guarantee a better turn 1 than the "meh" land->brainstorm.

Nouille

10-12-2017, 07:01 PM

Hey guys !
Up of this topic, as i'm still trying to do something good with thought lash, despite the sensei top ban.

Here is the list i'm playing currently:

// 60 Maindeck
// 6 Artifact
3 Lantern of Insight
2 Chromatic Sphere
1 Scroll Rack

// 3 Creature
3 Laboratory Maniac

// 4 Enchantment
4 Thought Lash

// 19 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Predict
2 Swan Song
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Daze

// 20 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
6 Island
1 Cavern of Souls

// 8 Sorcery
4 Terminus
4 Ponder

// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

// 4 Creature
SB: 2 Monastery Mentor
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

// 3 Enchantment
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Mystic Remora

// 5 Instant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Orim's Chant

// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

It's been ok so far, but quite weak to many spells, and I made no good results in tournaments since the top ban (always 3-2...).
Any ideas to enhance this ?
I'm not really sold on dazes, even if it helps a lot to resolve turn 3 thought lash or turn 2 mentor post side. I used to run counterbalances when top was legal, maybe I should include some ? (thought lash+lantern+cb = gg) Was also thinking about bringing in some snapcasters, but not sure i want to be too much control oriented.
For the side, I think it's quite solid already, but the mentor plan turned out to be ok to mediocre. Maybe some other alternative win-con would be better ? (Helm of obedience ? Luminarch ascension ? not sur artefact/enchant are good when you expect opponents to bring hate already)

slave

10-13-2017, 06:43 AM

It's been ok so far, but quite weak to many spells, and I made no good results in tournaments since the top ban (always 3-2...).
Any ideas to enhance this ?
Top being banned is actually good for combo decks as we're less likely to be countered or cop *counter-top* IMHO.

I've been building around Laboratory Maniac for ages, mainly because it's silly and I like that, and it's almost always cheap as chips.
And I already have Force of Will, so there's that...
I tried like you have with Lash, altho my list was pretty different to yours. I tried it with Paradigm Shift in a UB approach where I would discard my own cards I wanted in the grave and then win on turn 2 to 3 with the help of free-mana cards like Lotus Petal. I tried a non-land version with Balustrade Spy with mostly free mana cards, and my old mates Azami, Lady of Scrolls & Phantasmagorian for the win (who also appears in Booberry). I also tried a simple Booberry approach with the pseudo-infinite combo between Mesmeric Orb & Basalt Monolith.
Lots of ways to skin a cat and all that.....

In short, Lash is my least favourite. You need a lot to go right. A LOT. IME, if a player knows what you're doing, you're invariably easy to pick off.
The most consistent & robust version IME is Booberry, as it allows you to run a large number of filter and counter, allowing you to find multiples of cards you need, even if it is a bit slow. If you like to live dangerously, where a single counter can torpedo your strategy, play with Spy or Paradigm.
Bear in mind, Spy and Paradigm are the quicker versions here (when it works).
I can dig up some basic lists if you like?

One of the things I would advise you to think about, is instant-speed card draw.
Only having Brainstorm to protect your hand from discard early, and protect your Labmaniac from removal post combo, isn't where I want to be, especially as it can be countered. I run 4x Street Wraith in most versions I listed above as it cannot be countered.

Does that help?

Nouille

10-13-2017, 03:19 PM

Top being banned is actually good for combo decks as we're less likely to be countered or cop *counter-top* IMHO.

I've been building around Laboratory Maniac for ages, mainly because it's silly and I like that, and it's almost always cheap as chips.
And I already have Force of Will, so there's that...
I tried like you have with Lash, altho my list was pretty different to yours. I tried it with Paradigm Shift in a UB approach where I would discard my own cards I wanted in the grave and then win on turn 2 to 3 with the help of free-mana cards like Lotus Petal. I tried a non-land version with Balustrade Spy with mostly free mana cards, and my old mates Azami, Lady of Scrolls & Phantasmagorian for the win (who also appears in Booberry). I also tried a simple Booberry approach with the pseudo-infinite combo between Mesmeric Orb & Basalt Monolith.
Lots of ways to skin a cat and all that.....

In short, Lash is my least favourite. You need a lot to go right. A LOT. IME, if a player knows what you're doing, you're invariably easy to pick off.
The most consistent & robust version IME is Booberry, as it allows you to run a large number of filter and counter, allowing you to find multiples of cards you need, even if it is a bit slow. If you like to live dangerously, where a single counter can torpedo your strategy, play with Spy or Paradigm.
Bear in mind, Spy and Paradigm are the quicker versions here (when it works).
I can dig up some basic lists if you like?

One of the things I would advise you to think about, is instant-speed card draw.
Only having Brainstorm to protect your hand from discard early, and protect your Labmaniac from removal post combo, isn't where I want to be, especially as it can be countered. I run 4x Street Wraith in most versions I listed above as it cannot be countered.

Does that help?

Well i appreciate your message, but I think you totally miss the point of that deck (no offense).
I don't play this deck because of lab maniac. It just happens that lab is a very good combo with lash. But the card i do like is lash, because it allows you to do stupid interactions with the top of your library, which is awesome to control your draw and the game. Of course if my only goal was to win with the combo i would go oops or something close to. Thought lash + Maniac is more a control-ish deck with a combo win. That's why top ban is the worst thing ever, as top was bread and butter for the deck (even more than for miracles !).

I don't care being discarded of labman early (except if there is surgical). I would even say that it's quite good indeed, as it gives you time to land with less pressure on board. The only thing i want is resolving a lash, and then lantern/scroll rack/brainstorm. Also you are saying that the deck needs uncounterable draw, well, indeed your ability to win with the combo is very high with thought lash, as you can cast maniac with cavern of souls + draw with chromatics sphere (which is a mana ability, so no answer possible).

slave

10-14-2017, 03:54 AM

Well i appreciate your message, but I think you totally miss the point of that deck (no offense).
I don't play this deck because of lab maniac.
....
The only thing i want is resolving a lash, and then lantern/scroll rack/brainstorm. Also you are saying that the deck needs uncounterable draw, well, indeed your ability to win with the combo is very high with thought lash, as you can cast maniac with cavern of souls + draw with chromatics sphere (which is a mana ability, so no answer possible).
None taken. :wink: I understand how your deck works, I used to play a similar-ish version with Skill Borrower years ago.
Play however you like, just thought I'd offer up some experiences of my own.
I've played competitively with Labman since it was printed, there isn't a strategy I've seen that I haven't sleeved up and tried against other legacy decks, and there isn't many decks I haven't played a version of Labman against.
The reason I used to use Street Wraith (with Lash) for draw was lack of interaction, it's mana-free draw and it doesn't require other cards for it to work. I wanted multiple draw options besides Brainstorm etc., in case my opponent sandbagged multiple instant removal spells aimed at Labman on the combo turn.

FWIW, I don't play with Lash anymore, it was unreliable for me against better opposition, or even Burn for that matter.
Back when I used to play with Lash/Skilled, I used to run 4 Impulse, 2 Ancestral Knowledge & 4 Long-Term Plans.
Why not play LTP?

I also used to run a mix of Foil & Daze, ~10 counter all up with Force.
I've always found Daze inconsistent for protecting combo/Lash, and worse when you haven't hit 4-cmc for Lash. With only your 8 islands neither of these counter look ideal, but I would say that having *free* counter is where I would want to be.
The only other *free* option I can think of right now is Disrupting Shoal (vomits in mouth) :eek:

Nouille

10-14-2017, 07:35 PM

None taken. :wink: I understand how your deck works, I used to play a similar-ish version with Skill Borrower years ago.
Play however you like, just thought I'd offer up some experiences of my own.
I've played competitively with Labman since it was printed, there isn't a strategy I've seen that I haven't sleeved up and tried against other legacy decks, and there isn't many decks I haven't played a version of Labman against.
The reason I used to use Street Wraith (with Lash) for draw was lack of interaction, it's mana-free draw and it doesn't require other cards for it to work. I wanted multiple draw options besides Brainstorm etc., in case my opponent sandbagged multiple instant removal spells aimed at Labman on the combo turn.

FWIW, I don't play with Lash anymore, it was unreliable for me against better opposition, or even Burn for that matter.
Back when I used to play with Lash/Skilled, I used to run 4 Impulse, 2 Ancestral Knowledge & 4 Long-Term Plans.
Why not play LTP?

I also used to run a mix of Foil & Daze, ~10 counter all up with Force.
I've always found Daze inconsistent for protecting combo/Lash, and worse when you haven't hit 4-cmc for Lash. With only your 8 islands neither of these counter look ideal, but I would say that having *free* counter is where I would want to be.
The only other *free* option I can think of right now is Disrupting Shoal (vomits in mouth) :eek:

Oh ! A maniac maniac ! Sweet !
For long term plans, i think this card will just act as a bad enlightened tutor that costs more most of the time. I don't think the deck wants card disaventage too much .
For dazes, yes, I do think that it's not the best card here (one of my problems: i love daze so much that i want to play it everywhere). I got an alternative mainboard without dazes :

-1 Terminus
-4 Daze
-1 Enlightened tutor

+1 counterbalance
+1 Jace, the mindsculptor
+2 snapcaster mage
+2 swords to plowshares

But i don't know if it's a good idea to go further in the control path. The thing is that other "free" counterspells (foil, disrupting shoal...etc) as super bad cards in legacy. Maybe spell pierce would do the job, but i'm not sure...

slave

10-14-2017, 11:21 PM

Oh ! A maniac maniac ! Sweet !
For long term plans, i think this card will just act as a bad enlightened tutor that costs more most of the time.
....
But i don't know if it's a good idea to go further in the control path. The thing is that other "free" counterspells (foil, disrupting shoal...etc) as super bad cards in legacy. Maybe spell pierce would do the job, but i'm not sure...
LTP isn't good, don't get me wrong. :laugh: It's a budget option, but it is on-colour and it's flexible.
Seeing how you're playing with white for a control aspect, the main reason I suggested Long-term plans, is that c/o Ponder, Brainstorm, preordain etc. you might fetch up Terminus and effectively keep it in the top few cards of the deck until you wanna *miracle* it. E-tutor can't do that.
Not saying you should do this, but its an option....

Going down a control path would mean dedicating less deck space to actively finding your win-con. I've never tried doing this with lash without counter-top.
Personally I would want to double-down on the combo aspect. Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Preordain etc.
But that's me....

Fallen_Empire

07-09-2019, 12:11 AM

Jace, Wielder of Mysteries

Fallen_Empire

01-15-2020, 09:42 PM

Thassa's Oracle has many combo applications in Legacy.

Thassa's Oracle + Thought Lash is a true two-card combo that's immune to creature removal, doesn't rely on the graveyard, and is all in the same color.

Thassa's Oracle + Paradigm Shift requires a way to empty the graveyard before casting Paradigm Shift.

Thassa's Oracle also streamlines kill packages for Cephalid Breakfast, Oops All Spells, Basalt Monolith/Mesmeric Orb, and possibly Doomsday.

Thassa's Oracle seems great in this shell!

Nouille

01-16-2020, 05:05 AM

Thassa's Oracle seems great in this shell!

It is! I play mainly this deck competitively for ~5 years now, and this card is the best news we had in a while. It's stricly better than maniac and way better than Jace at all levels exepts it's not a CA machine in control matchups.

I had my little moment of glory on MtGgoldfish few weeks ago now : https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-thought-lash-combo-legacy
My current list is the same, except I anticipate playing x3 oracle / x1 Jace now

perian

02-08-2020, 05:27 AM

Did not know exactly where to post - here or in the other thread about brewing with the same cards. See:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?33242-Oracle-Shift-combo-(brewing)

Skilled Maniac was a deck I like to play/pet in the years of the "Top". After the banning I stopped tinkering about it, because I had the feeling it was not good enough any more.

After the spoiler of Thassa's Oracle I got attraction for the combo again. I wanted to include the following 3 cards in a combo/control shell:

Thassa's Oracle
Paradigm Shift
Thought Lash

The question was between Mono U or a splash into Uw or Ub. I ended up with Uw (see list below) and the fact that Skill Borrower is still not good enough without Sensai's Devining Top[\cards] or something similar in power level.

[CARDS]
4 Paradigm Shift
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterbalance
4 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
7 Island
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Plains
3 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
2 Flusterstorm
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
3 Terminus
4 Thassa's Oracle
4 Thought Lash
2 Tundra

//Sideboard
1 Containment Priest
1 Disenchant
3 Force of Negation
1 Counterbalance
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Jace, wielder of mysteries
1 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace

The Sideboard is just some cards atm. That I wanted to play around. With the Rip/Helm package you can go into "2 card monte"-mode and the Rest in Peace helps with the original combo as well, if you need to get rid of the graveyard.

I just have had 1-2 hours before the FNM to build and sleeve the deck - so it is what it is. I tried to find a list online, that in-cooperates all 3 combo pieces, but I was not able. So I needed to brew it together on my own as it was already in my head. The following lists have been the nearest (and actual) I found in the WWW besides the treads in this forum:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2606148#paper <- basis for my brew

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/instant-deck-tech-thought-lash-combo-legacy

I played it at your local Legacy FNM yesterday. It was a lot of fun. Also seeing the people reading the old cards. I went 2-2 after starting 2-0, but 3-1 should have been possible as well. I made a lot of mistakes and sub-optimal plays lacking experience with the deck. Wins against Oko-Miracles, D&T - Loss against Elves and Grixis Delver (very bad MU imho - lot of red blasts :cry:).

I would also change some minor things after the first real testing. But the overall strategy was solid imho. Happy to get some feedback!

Fallen_Empire

02-22-2020, 01:52 PM

I would also change some minor things after the first real testing. But the overall strategy was solid imho. Happy to get some feedback!

I've been meaning to sleeve this deck up for a while now. Seems like lots of fun will be had. I'll need to get some games in before I can give feedback. Glad others are trying it out.

Anomalous__

02-22-2020, 02:32 PM

gitaxian probe is banned, also thassa's oracle is better than labman

FTW

02-22-2020, 07:22 PM

I've been thinking about this deck.

Jeskai Breach is another Thassa's Oracle deck that also runs a UW shell and plays a control-combo game. It uses a 3-card combo + red mana to get rid of its library before deploying Thassa's Oracle (or winning with Brain Freeze or burn). Despite needing 3 combo pieces and 3 colors and being vulnerable to graveyard hate and storm hate and artifact hate, it's been very successful! Much of the success comes from the fact that it can play the control role, sculpt, and wait to go off when ready. It's a Xerox deck with an explosive "I Win" button instead of fragile Delvers or Planeswalkers.

This deck has a much simpler way to get rid of its library (fewer moving parts, less vulnerabilities). It should be able to perform well in a similar UW control/combo shell.

The combo is more compact. There are very few "dead cards" too. Redundant combo pieces pitch to FoW. Thassa's Oracle chump blocks and provides library manipulation. Thought Lash can protect your life while you sculpt. Paradigm Shift can tutor you into Thassa's Oracle if it's in your graveyard with some cantrips.

//Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
2 Snow-Covered Plains
5 Snow-Covered Island
2 Cavern of Souls

//Combo: 9
4 Thassa's Oracle
4 Paradigm Shift
1 Thought Lash

//Xerox: 16
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

//Support: 8
2 Orim's Chant
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Set Adrift
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Board Control: 7
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Sideboard: 15
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rest in Peace
2 Serenity
2 Force of Negation
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Orim's Chant
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Null Rod

Curve
1: 21
2: 11
3: 2
4+: 2

I started with a lot of the control and combo protection aspects that were working for the Breach shell and was able to find room for even more control tools, because this combo both takes up less deck space and demands less support from other cards.
Jeskai Breach: 20 mana + 12 combo + 16 Xerox + 1 wincon, leaves 11 more slots
Oracle Shift: 20 mana + 9 combo + 16 Xerox, leaves 15 slots

With that extra space, I had room for maindeck StPs and Snapcasters for card advantage and better board control, since this combo is slower at racing.

Card choices:
Snapcaster Mage: Proven pillar of UW control, juggling StPs and counters and cantrips

Orim's Chant: Does everything from protecting you when you want to go off, Time Walking the opponent, and disrupting other combo decks while ignoring Veil

Teferi, Time Raveler: Protects you when you want to go off. Bounces hate. Stalls opponent.

Set Adrift: Tech to empty your graveyard for Paradigm Shift and handle anything on the board from Oko or Chalice to just a pesky Delver. Teferi's +1 lets you play this as an instant like Submerge. It can also take a Thassa's Oracle in play and put it on top of your own library.

Cavern of Souls: Naming Wizards makes both Thassa and Snappy uncounterable! But too many non-Islands is bad for the cantrips.

Serenity: I like the 2-for-1 potential over Disenchant. I've found this card very powerful in Breach for its ability to remove multiple problems at once: Chalices, Spheres, Moons, Deafening Silence, Astrolabe, Grids, Choke, mana rocks.... Even though we fear less permanent hate, the meta has a few artifact-heavy decks.

Rest in Peace: This sees little play because its too slow vs BR Reanimator, but the ability to remove our own graveyard could be useful for Paradigm Shift

Other cards that deserve consideration:
Intuition: EOT combo tutor for either piece. But this seems a little weak, puts extra cards in GY (bad for Shift), opens you up to Surgical..

Relic of Progenitus: Maindeck Relic hates out opposing strategies, empties the grave for Paradigm Shift, and cantrips.

Counterbalance: We have the library manipulation and curve to abuse it, but it may not be necessary when we can just combo off

Terminus: If decks like D&T are a problem, maybe some copies are needed in the SB, but for now I'm hoping StP+Snappy are enough

Predict: Card draw.

Noxious Revival: Puts a card on top of library so we don't die to draw step if we get disrupted.

This deck would be busted with 3 Dig Through Time, if only that was still around...

I need to test this out, but it seems like it has potential.

Fastest goldfish is turn 3! T1 cantrip. T2 Shift (library size=1-2). T3 Oracle. (possible FoW/Chant/Cavern backup)
But most of the time you can just go slow.

FTW

02-23-2020, 09:18 AM

Tested 10 games against Delver. Got a few wins, but also ran out of gas quickly in other games.

Something's missing. Either need to double down on control with 2-3 Terminus main, or double down on combo with a tutor engine. 4 Preordain may be too many too. Thought Lash is very slow and I'm debating cutting the only copy.

I tried the following cards main:
Predict
Terminus
Orim's Chant
Rest in Peace
Narset, Parter of Veils
Intuition

A lot of the generic control cards just felt like "lose less". It doesn't help advance the game plan. I wasn't even a big fan of Snapcasters.

When you find the right cards it can go off really effectively with protection. Off few lands you can Paradigm Shift and pass the turn. Your library becomes a small number of cards, many of them cantrips. Then you cantrip and cast Thassa. Cavern, counters and Teferi add many layers of protection. The games I lost I just cantripped into oblivion and could not assemble anything, which tilts me towards tutors.

Intuition was explosive, but is slow without Ancient Tombs.

Currently testing this.

//Lands: 20
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
6 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Cavern of Souls

//Creatures: 7
4 Thassa's Oracle
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Teferi, Time Raveler

//Enchantments: 1
1 Thought Lash

//Spells: 30
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Set Adrift
1 Predict
4 Paradigm Shift
2 Intuition

//Sideboard: 15
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Orim's Chant
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Force of Negation
1 Council's Judgment
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt

A 1-of Sevinne's Reclamation would enable this Intuition pile when you have neither piece:
Thassa's Oracle, Thought Lash, Sevinne's Reclamation
But it requires a lot of mana to flashback.