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GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 12:12 AM
I have been working on the deck on and off for the better part of 3 months trying to find the most optimized version. The decklist below is what I believe to be the best, with the exception of the mana base, collection of 60 cards that I have tested thus far. The deck has been testing very well, having positive match ups against just about every fair deck in the format. Against almost every non-combo deck, with the exception of lands, I have observed an approximately 60/40 win percentage both pre and post-board. What this deck is doing a lot of others can't keep up with, between the creatures, all the removal, the equipment and planeswalkers most fair decks get buried in advantages of almost every kind. The deck is very hard to tempo out, to the point where I consider every delver deck excluding UR very good match ups. The only decks that I feel at a very clear disadvantage is against any sort of combo deck game 1, Lands, and Burn.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Sylvan Library
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire


Manabase:
On the manabase, I don't know if the deck is actually interested in the card Plateau. I have omitted it from the current build, though have played it in previous iterations and the exclusion or inclusion of the card hasn't changed anything perceptively enough for me to notice. I have loved the 2 Wastelands and they have been very valuable pieces of utility. From killing random Glacial Chasms and stopping Karakas shenanigans it has proved very useful. This deck plays Wasteland a lot similarly to something like Shardless BUG or Deathblade, in that you can't wasteland aggressively a lot of the time since you are trying to play a longer grindy game. 3 Grove of the Burnwillows has been fine and I haven't had any desire to change the number, and haven't wanted to change much in the mana base as a whole, though I do think it is the most unrefined part of the deck.

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman-Everyone should realize its power level by now, is it ambitious to add it to the deck? Probably. Is it worth it? Most Definitely.

4 Wild Nacatl-Nacatl has been a fine card, it basically functions as the decks Delver of Secrets. In testing the deck has reminded me a lot of BUG devler, Nacatl gives you the tools to play a short game if need be. It has helped me to steal games against storm, high tide, and burn game 1, though Nacatl's main purpose is to function as a lightning rod for the other creatures. While Nacatl doesn't dodge True-name Nemesis, it does allow you to play under it to an extent. There have been games where I got enough early damage in against Deathblade to allow for me to burn him out with punishing fires a couple turns later. While Nacatl is far from the best 1 drop in the format, it is a critical roleplayer in the deck.

3 Qasali Pridemage-Pridemage has always been a fine card, it's almost never great, but it's almost always fine, which is the main reason I found room for 4 copies in the 75. It is a very flexible card and allows the deck to cheat sideboarding to an extent, as you already have a solid card for other stoneforge mystic decks in the main. At best the card is killing a Batterskull or Sneak Attack, and at worse it's a 2/2 that can pump the Flamespeaker. The card is instrumental in the gameplan versus TNN in game 1, if you can deal with the equipment True-Name is a Vendilion Clique that can block well. The card is a very flexible and critical card to making the deck work at peak level, even if its inherent power level is lacking.

4 Stoneforge Mystic-Do I really need to explain the inclusion of this card? Moving on.

4 Prophetic Flamespeaker-This is the one that is bound to raise some eyebrows. The card is very powerful, what is probably holding it back form becoming a Legacy and Modern staple is the fear of lightning bolt, and the mana cost is not always what you want to be doing in legacy. Let me tell you upfront, the card is insane. It is very good, when it connects you effectively draw 2 cards, when it connects wearing a Jitte or sword, the game is all but over. The problem that the creature has is that it has to deal damage to a player in combat to trigger. This is alleviated to an extent with the inclusion of the equipment package. Jitte makes trading up, or eating a Tarmogoyf very possible, you just attack, they block. First strike damage happens, get 2 counters, pump twice, and you might even trample over to get a free card out of the exchange. It doesn't really get around TNN very well, but that is what Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Sword of Fire and Ice are for. Elspeth is a particularly potent card at getting around TNN, as it allows 1 of your creatures to take to the skies and pressures the TNN to attack, opening up the window for more creatures to get in. And if he connects while wearing a SOFI, you are effectively draw 2 cards, on top of actually drawing 2, and dealing 6+ potentially up to 4 damage. The card is very good and I feel like its application in both Modern and Legacy has been largely unexplored.

Removal Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt-Pretty straightforward, it kills almost everything and you can always send it upstairs.

4 Swords To Plowshares-Again, kills almost everything, and hits stuff like Tarmogoyf, and in a pinch can be pointed at your creatures for the life gain in the most dire of situations.

4 Punishing Fire-One of the main reasons I wanted to play red, and to a certain extent green. Card advantage engines that effect the board are usually some of the most powerful, and Punishing fire is exactly that. It does a great job at polishing off planeswalkers, and in the most grindy of affairs you can always work toward burning someone out with it. If anyone has ever seen Jund winning then they probably already know the power of the card.

Other Spells:
1 Sylvan Library-I think this card is criminally underplayed. It is a Sensei's Divining Top that actaully allows you to draw cards, instead of just filter. Paired with Batterskull the card is particularly potent as it allows you to draw a lot of extra cards per turn, and it does a great job at setting up ideal flips for the Prophetic Flamespeaker, and Flamespeaker also helps a lot at clearing the top 3 so you can see even more cards.

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant-Our trump card in the BGx match up as well as miracles. Jund has a really hard time if you can just shit out a bunch of guys and Elspeth really just allows you to take over games in those match ups. Planeswalkers are also a great way to combat miracles, they can deal with creatures really well but have a tough time answering a resolved walker. The +3/+3 and flying ability is great at forcing through some damage and really pressures opponents to act in a stalemate.

1 Batterskull, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice-These have been the go-to equipment for awhile now, there isn't much room to explain these cards that hasn't already been said. Sword of Fire and Ice is very good, it draws you cards, always great, and clocks the opponent and contains the board reasonably well. The protection colors are also very relevant and pushing through a TNN that has decided to play the role of Moat for the opponent. I have found that I have been searching for SOFI a lot more than the other 2 since the upside if you get it online is generally much higher. It contains the board just as well as jitte at times, and helps clock the opponent and draws cards, something the other equipment don't allow.

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sylvan Library
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Council's Judgment

Sideboard:
With the sideboard I wanted as much hate for combo, that also had utility in other match ups, which is for the reason for the 3/1 split of Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. I also never try to build a sideboard without enough graveyard and dredge hate. Ratchet Bomb and Enlightened Tutor qualify as enough hate that I feel like the dredge match up is very good post-board, as bomb sweeps up zombies and the tutor finds the actual graveyard hate. The only combo match up that feel particularly weak is Reanimator and Sneak/Show. Luckily those decks see no play in my area so I'm fine with the strategy of dodge those match ups but it is a concern that will have to be addressed at a more open field. On another note I excluded Red Elemental Blast from the sideboard for a couple reasons. 1, this deck can't really play a reactive game at all, the deck really wants to be using all its mana each turn if possible. There are only a few blue spells the deck cares about, Show and Tell, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and True-Name Nemesis. For show and tell, they probably have a counterspell of their own and holding up a red blast can sometimes stifle your pressure significantly. For TNN, Council's Judgment is just a more flexible card, it even answers another blue problem card, Jace, very effectively. For the rest of the sideboard, Sword of Feast and Famine, is good against combo, goyf, and control decks. Sylvan Library is just very good, and I wanted access to the 4th Pridemage in a lot of games. Teeg is very good against storm, and is also good against miracles, which is why it is a 3 of compared to the 1 Canonist. Pithing Needle is just a very flexible card and Ratchet Bomb is almost always a reasonable card in a lot of match ups. I chose to play the 1 Enlightened Tutor mainly because I wanted access to more graveyard hate but wanted something more flexible, from there it was a fairly easy inclusion when I considered the card.

In conclusion I feel like the deck is in a vey good place, though sideboards always need work. The deck is very good, and it allows for very flexible gameplans, you cam shift from the aggressor to the control role and back to aggro almost seamlessly and very well. I would love to get some more seasoned, and just overall better deck builders working on the deck, I'm not a great, or even very good deck builder as it is so I feel if others better than myself started working with this it could become a very solid tier 2, hopefully even tier 1/1.5 strategy.

bakofried
07-13-2014, 12:32 AM
I think your mana issues would be fixed by cutting black and using Hierarch. Exalted and Flamespeaker play really nicely together. Don't try to shoehorn a 4th color into a deck just for Deathrite Shaman.

GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 12:43 AM
I think your mana issues would be fixed by cutting black and using Hierarch. Exalted and Flamespeaker play really nicely together. Don't try to shoehorn a 4th color into a deck just for Deathrite Shaman.

I ran noble heirarch in the first versions of the deck and it didn't do much since it doesn't tap for red, making the RR part of flamespeaker harder. There haven't been any problems with the mana base so far, barring blood moon and price of progress, the distribution of duals feels sub-optimal to me but that's it. In my experience cutting the deathrite and bayou in favor of noble heirachs didn't help. The versatility of Deathrite has also been paramount in a lot of games, while the acceleration is nice, it wasn't the only consideration to add deathrite over hierarch.

Zupponn
07-13-2014, 10:56 AM
I tested your deck it gets destroyed by miracle ; meaning your 60-40 results are not very serious tests.
I didn't test others matchups cause I don't want have time to, and stopped there ; the deck is not viable ; over.

You're really going to post something like this? You talk about his testing not being serious and then write the deck off after a couple of games against just one deck? Please, if you don't have anything constructive to add, don't say anything.

As for me, I'm wondering if Swords might be better as Path, seeing as you're an aggro deck.

adrieng
07-13-2014, 11:30 AM
You're really going to post something like this? You talk about his testing not being serious and then write the deck off after a couple of games against just one deck? Please, if you don't have anything constructive to add, don't say anything.

Maybe you don't really understand the legacy metagame, for a deck to be viable you have to see whether you stand a chance against tier one decks.
It is really easy to see in a couple of games if your deck is viable or not or may have a chance with some little adjustements.

This deck is clearly not it gets clearly rapped by miracle, it was not even close ; so I don't see how you can do some adjustements to make it viable without changing something like 40 cards.

Zoo is not viable over, playing stoneforge or flamespeaker is not going to change something about that. Against stoneblade they'll just counter your mystic and play their own and destroys you or snapcaster+sword CA your dudes ; samestory vs BUG shardless toxic deluge your board// decay//lili and overpower you with CA vision and I am not even speaking about combo.

If you want to play casual games no problem about that.

I am not going to reply, don't have to spend some time on this kind off deck ; good luck ; peace.

GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 12:59 PM
Maybe you don't really understand the legacy metagame, for a deck to be viable you have to see whether you stand a chance against tier one decks.
It is really easy to see in a couple of games if your deck is viable or not or may have a chance with some little adjustements.

This deck is clearly not it gets clearly rapped by miracle, it was not even close ; so I don't see how you can do some adjustements to make it viable without changing something like 40 cards.

Zoo is not viable over, playing stoneforge or flamespeaker is not going to change something about that. Against stoneblade they'll just counter your mystic and play their own and destroys you or snapcaster+sword CA your dudes ; samestory vs BUG shardless toxic deluge your board// decay//lili and overpower you with CA vision and I am not even speaking about combo.

If you want to play casual games no problem about that.

I am not going to reply, don't have to spend some time on this kind off deck ; good luck ; peace.

I did say "almost every non-combo deck" for a reason. I haven't tested against miracles too much, since I only know of 1 miracles player in my area and conflicting schedules prevented adequate testing in the match up. Stoneforge and Flamespeaker doesn't solve some of the issues that other Zoo decks had, but it does open up a new angle of attack that many decks do not expect. 1. Stoneforge dies to removal, a lot, Nacatl and Deathrite also die to removal. The fact that those 3 creatures function as lightning rods a lot of the time really helps to open up the path for Flamespeaker to both resolve and stick. On the snapcaster swords, if a deathrite survives it's fairly easy to break up that sequence if you're careful with your fetchlands. Also one of the best things that Wild Nacatl does is pressure the life total early. Against Shardless BUG, because of Nacatl you can sometimes force them into positions where they deluge away your board but now they can get burnt out fairly quickly. This is obviously not the final draft, I posted it here because I want to people to actually weigh in with constructive criticism, and just saying the deck has a terrible miracles match up and the deck sucks helps absolutely no one.

GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 01:22 PM
As for me, I'm wondering if Swords might be better as Path, seeing as you're an aggro deck.

I haven't really tested path, in all honesty I forgot the card existed for a while but swords was always working fine, though it might just be silly to not use path, the upside is higher and it's not like the deck wants to attack mana aggressively. The one thing I don't like about path is that giving a deck like elves an extra source of mana is sometimes very scary.

Michael Keller
07-13-2014, 01:59 PM
Maybe you don't really understand the legacy metagame, for a deck to be viable you have to see whether you stand a chance against tier one decks.
It is really easy to see in a couple of games if your deck is viable or not or may have a chance with some little adjustements.

This deck is clearly not it gets clearly rapped by miracle, it was not even close ; so I don't see how you can do some adjustements to make it viable without changing something like 40 cards.

Zoo is not viable over, playing stoneforge or flamespeaker is not going to change something about that. Against stoneblade they'll just counter your mystic and play their own and destroys you or snapcaster+sword CA your dudes ; samestory vs BUG shardless toxic deluge your board// decay//lili and overpower you with CA vision and I am not even speaking about combo.

If you want to play casual games no problem about that.

I am not going to reply, don't have to spend some time on this kind off deck ; good luck ; peace.

This is arguably one of, if not the most, ignorant posts I may have ever read on TS.

Please sir, explain yourself more.

HammafistRoob
07-13-2014, 02:20 PM
I have a few quick points for you to think about. Like mentioned earlier, I believe Path is most likely better than Swords in a deck like this since the lifegain drawback is very real if you're hitting something like Goyf.

Is Bayou the best black land here? I would look at Badlands or Scrubland instead since they would let you cast your double red/white cards more easily. I'm thinking that the black land is usually fetched out later when you already have your three colors, and having more green doesn't seem as useful to me.

Is 23 lands too many? It seems like you could get away with 22 or maybe even 21.

Is Batterskull necessary here? It is probably nice to have sometimes yes, but it's a bad draw and I'm not sure if it's good enough here. Maybe slide in another Jitte or instead? Or move the Feast and Famine into the main and free up a board slot in the process?

ScatmanX
07-13-2014, 02:23 PM
This is arguably one of, if not the most, ignorant posts I may have ever read on ts.
Theb you probably dont visit all the threads...
Just ignore it. Theyll eventually starve and die.

Deck looks fun. Guess that is a bit removal heavy though...

GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 02:36 PM
I have a few quick points for you to think about. Like mentioned earlier, I believe Path is most likely better than Swords in a deck like this since the lifegain drawback is very real if you're hitting something like Goyf.

Is Bayou the best black land here? I would look at Badlands or Scrubland instead since they would let you cast your double red/white cards more easily. I'm thinking that the black land is usually fetched out later when you already have your three colors, and having more green doesn't seem as useful to me.

Is 23 lands too many? It seems like you could get away with 22 or maybe even 21.

Is Batterskull necessary here? It is probably nice to have sometimes yes, but it's a bad draw and I'm not sure if it's good enough here. Maybe slide in another Jitte or instead? Or move the Feast and Famine into the main and free up a board slot in the process?

I don't know if bayou is the best black dual, I was considering badlands for a while but just never got around to changing it. I do think that bayou is probably the worst black dual available, I just never got around to changing anything. I have been flooding out a good bit so I could easily see cutting a land for the 4th Pridemage or second Sylvan library or something.

I like fetching for batterskull against Tarmogoyf decks, namely shardless BUG. In the case of Shardless bug they have liliana's and abrupt decays as their removal a lot of the time and them burning a decay on a stoneforge instead of flamespeaker or Jitte/SOFI is pretty awesome, and the upside is also pretty high.




Deck looks fun. Guess that is a bit removal heavy though...

It is removal heavy but it is out of necessity to an extent. The fact that flamespeaker has to deal damage to a player makes it so you want ways to clear its path. Sure it can beat stuff like Bob, Stoneforge, and Deathrite in combat, there are some cards it can't, namely tarmogoyf and serra avenger. Serra Avenger is particularly troubling as it is basically a better TNN against you, it can attack uncontested while holding back on defense very well.

Esper3k
07-13-2014, 02:46 PM
I actually don't see this deck as a super aggressive deck (really, the only very aggressive creature here is Nacatl), but more of a mid-range / control deck, so I don't think PtE is better than StP here.

Also, StP allows you to get Pfires back in case you don't have a Grove out.

GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 03:06 PM
I actually don't see this deck as a super aggressive deck (really, the only very aggressive creature here is Nacatl), but more of a mid-range / control deck, so I don't think PtE is better than StP here.

Also, StP allows you to get Pfires back in case you don't have a Grove out.

It isnt super aggressive, and ya using it to trigger the punishing fires is sweet, especially if you have 1w and 1r and they try to eat it with deathrite. I don't think the life or basic matters much, besides some corner case scenarios.

adrieng
07-13-2014, 03:21 PM
This is arguably one of, if not the most, ignorant posts I may have ever read on TS.

Please sir, explain yourself more.

I don't really know who is ignorant to the meta, but snapcaster+sword or TNN is game over not speaking about inconsistancy issue whith not playing blue. Blue.delvers decks will beat this all days.
Let's take an example Patriot will just bolt your dudes counter your stoneforge play his own stoneforge and inevitabily kills you with TNN or baterskul and you will have some guys on the board like wild nactal or such which doesn't do much same story with BUGdelver with goyf/liliana instead of batterskull.
Blue decks plays cantrip so they will topdeck better.

Control.decks have one mana wrath of god snap+sword which this deck can't do anything about it. Three mana liliana/shardless/toxic deluge/ two mana strix which are two for one.

So how do you beat a resolved TNN ? I mean you can't outrace it these decks plays one mana removals, 0 mana counterspells and two mana 2 for one with snapcaster.

bakofried
07-13-2014, 03:31 PM
I don't really know who is ignorant to the meta, but snapcaster+sword or TNN is game over not speaking about inconsistancy issue whith not playing blue. Blue.delvers decks will beat this all days.
Let's take an example Patriot will just bolt your dudes counter your stoneforge play his own stoneforge and inevitabily kills you with TNN or baterskul and you will have some guys on the board like wild nactal or such which doesn't do much same story with BUGdelver with goyf/liliana instead of batterskull.
Blue decks plays cantrip so they will topdeck better.

Control.decks have one mana wrath of god snap+sword which this deck can't do anything about it. Three mana liliana/shardless/toxic deluge/ two mana strix which are two for one.

So how do you beat a resolved TNN ? I mean you can't outrace it these decks plays one mana removals, 0 mana counterspells and two mana 2 for one with snapcaster.

You're sitting there describing how things can go wrong if everything goes perfectly for the other deck - in which case, we should all play Sneak and Show because turn one Grizzly with force back up is GG, right?

I don't like the mana for this deck, and I feel that in general the 4-color goodstuff decks trying to ham in DRS are waiting to be shit on. So that's a problem. But Delver decks would get wrecked by this, as Bolt+Plow+Punishing Fire is going to wreck the creature base of RUG, BUG, 4-color, and Patriot Delver decks alike. TNN is a problem, but it can be raced with equipment, if it even hits the board. with that much removal, I wouldn't expect Delvers to connect very often, meaning that TNN has a long way to go before it kills you.

If you want to make a constructive post, don't sit there and run your mouth about perfect game-plans all day.

GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 03:47 PM
I don't really know who is ignorant to the meta, but snapcaster+sword or TNN is game over not speaking about inconsistancy issue whith not playing blue. Blue.delvers decks will beat this all days.
Let's take an example Patriot will just bolt your dudes counter your stoneforge play his own stoneforge and inevitabily kills you with TNN or baterskul and you will have some guys on the board like wild nactal or such which doesn't do much same story with BUGdelver with goyf/liliana instead of batterskull.
Blue decks plays cantrip so they will topdeck better.

Control.decks have one mana wrath of god snap+sword which this deck can't do anything about it. Three mana liliana/shardless/toxic deluge/ two mana strix which are two for one.

So how do you beat a resolved TNN ? I mean you can't outrace it these decks plays one mana removals, 0 mana counterspells and two mana 2 for one with snapcaster.

1. You're are greatly overestimating the inconsistency that comes with not running blue. In the past there have been many very good and consistent non-blue decks. There have been a lot of decks that have succeeded and been reasonable deck choices, most recently there is D&T, and maverick before that, so not playing cantrips doesn't just make a deck vastly more inconsistent to the point of unplayability.

2. The only counterspells that delver has that hit creatures are force of will and daze. It is pretty easy to play around daze a lot of the time and they are very threat light game 1. You seem to be forgetting this deck plays a lot more removal than patriot, between punishing fire, lightning bolt, and swords, you can deal with the early threats which just leaves TNN as a threat. There are 19 creatures in the deck, and 1 sylvan library to help dig for more gas. They only run 8 removal spells at most, they will run out eventually, sure force of will can counter stuff, but that puts them down 2 cards, you have more threats than they have answers. If counterspells were as crippling as you say to non-blue creatures decks than cavern of souls would be stock in D&T and Maverick, as of now it isn't, sure it's used but it's generally one of the flex slots when it comes to land. They run 2 equipment main most of the time, and dealing with stoneforge blanks batterskull pretty hard, which just leaves Jitte. What you seem to fail to understand is that TNN isn't horribly threatening without equipment, which is what the pridemages are for. You are better prepared to win a race than them going long, as you have more mana to hardcast batterskull and generally more threats than them. 23 lands is a lot, which helps in the delver match ups significantly. Also going long they will be drawing more cards like daze and spell pierce and generally other early game cards that greatly diminish in value the longer the game goes where as you will still be drawing threats that are reasonable throughout the game. Wild Nacatl isn't the best draw late game but it does more than daze when both players are stalled out and topdecking. Punishing fire also blanks all their threats besides TNN going long. Post board you can board out your slower cards, like Elspeth in favor of answers to TNN in Council's judgment and ratchet bomb.

3. I haven't tested the miracles match up much, I can say they are favored, but I will need to test it more before I decide on what kind of cards I want in the sideboard for the match up. Also generally speaking miracle decks only run 2 swords to plowshares with snapcasters or 4 without snapcaster. This obviously will not be the case with every individual deck, but speaking generally that is what you're going to be expecting as far as spot removal is concerned.

4. Against Shardless Bug sure they have deluge baleful strix, they are good cards against you, but you can play around deluge and punishing fire is a very good way to deal with strix that doesn't put you behind on cards. Against Shardless BUG you don't want to play into the sweepers, and batterskull, Elspeth and sylvan library are really good in the match up, since they usually require numerous cards from the opponent to deal with them.

GingaNinja77
07-13-2014, 03:51 PM
You're sitting there describing how things can go wrong if everything goes perfectly for the other deck - in which case, we should all play Sneak and Show because turn one Grizzly with force back up is GG, right?

I don't like the mana for this deck, and I feel that in general the 4-color goodstuff decks trying to ham in DRS are waiting to be shit on. So that's a problem. But Delver decks would get wrecked by this, as Bolt+Plow+Punishing Fire is going to wreck the creature base of RUG, BUG, 4-color, and Patriot Delver decks alike. TNN is a problem, but it can be raced with equipment, if it even hits the board. with that much removal, I wouldn't expect Delvers to connect very often, meaning that TNN has a long way to go before it kills you.

If you want to make a constructive post, don't sit there and run your mouth about perfect game-plans all day.

Like I said in the original post the manabase is the worst part of the deck, and is the biggest reason why I posted this here for the sake of input on that front in particular. The thing about adding deathrite was that I was already losing to blood moon. The deck really wants G/W/R on turn 1, turn 2 G/W/R/R. and the green and white have to be on 2 different mana sources. In the original builds when I was still testing noble heirarch and just in a naya mana base I couldn't find room for basics without harming consistency too much so Deathrite was essentially free, since the mana was so shitty to begin with.

Plm
07-16-2014, 11:48 PM
Hi , like your deck, would love to see zoo playable again.

Concerning your mana base and deathrite, here is my thought :

You want to play prophetic and nacatl, but also want your deck to function with burnwillow.

I would play hierarch, because 8 exalted guys is awesome with double striker or nacatl.

to be able to play any cards of burnwillow plus fetch or basic plus fetch the manabase should be red.

4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
2 arid mesa

2 taiga
4 plateau
1 plain
1 forest

3 burnwillow
2 wasteland

4 noble hierarch

Now your nacatl can be fully powered of burnwillow plus fetch or forest plus fetch. Idealy you open of taiga/burnwillow , 1cc green dude, then plateau and you got access to RR/G/W with green and white on separate lands.

I've put in the basics because you complain about bloodmoon but I ain't sure about the plain...

Let me know what you think of this set up, I think noble hierarch is perfect for the deck, I'm not so sure about punishing fire but I haven't tested the deck much ;).

Zupponn
07-19-2014, 03:58 AM
Having more exalted is good with Flamespeaker, but I think it roughs up the turn 3 RR consistency a bit. I could be wrong, but I believe that's the idea of having DRS.

Part of me also wants to see a single Ghor-Clan Rampager in the deck just for its synergy with Flamespeaker, but it's probably worse than just running equipment.

Plm
07-19-2014, 04:46 AM
@ hierarch and RR :

If the manabase was the original one (4 savannas 1 bayou), yeah DRS is more consistent getting you your colors but with the red manabase, instead of 7 lands which doesn't produce red you now play 4, 2 of them basics. Also hierarch is unconditional and doesn't get hampered by opposing DRS.

You also need to take nacatl in consideration.

In the previous manabase, you had 6 land which can't lead you to a turn 2 3/3 (bayou, wasteland, burnwillow).
In the red manabase, only 3 lands can't produce what was the best aggro turn one of legacy (wasteland, plain).

Hence the importance of plateau.

Another thing is that now the deck is graveyard free, which means that you can play RIP in your sideboard :)

On a different subject I agree with the switch of batterskull for feast and famine in the main (untaping your lands is good sinergy with the flamespeaker).

I also am not too fond of punishing fire in the deck, what about some other burn? It would help the manabase a bit and maybe we could shave some lands...

Anyway nice to see some people slinging nacatl again.

nedleeds
07-19-2014, 01:30 PM
With no way to protect your Mystic, and no way to cheat-storm the skull back in your library I don't think I'd run skull. You can't thoughtseize removal, play SFM, get skull, activate. You can't play mother, sfm, protect with mother, skull. You can get skull with impunity like stoneblade and just brainstorm it back in.

In your current build I actually think I like Lightning Greaves ... it also gives you some game vs. miracles if you can get Teeg suited up (SoLS is good also but they'll just vampiric tutor their Karakas).

Lightning Greaves is also fires of yavimaya with every new man you draw and seems potent with flamespeaker.

FTW
07-20-2014, 04:51 PM
I think you can get pretty far with a Boros Flamespeaker build


//Creatures: 26
4 Mother of Runes
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
2 Mirran Crusader

//Spells: 11
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile

//Equipment: 4
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

//Lands: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
3 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains

//Sideboard:
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ashen Rider

Zupponn
07-22-2014, 04:10 AM
Basilisk Collar! That sounds sick on Flamespeaker.

FTW
07-26-2014, 07:29 PM
Basilisk Collar! That sounds sick on Flamespeaker.

Yeah. I figure any deck focused on R creatures and with white for SFM might as well run Basilisk Collar. Sick on Flamespeaker and obv sick on Lavamancers. With Moms, might be easier to protect Flamespeaker and SFM.

Erdvermampfa
07-27-2014, 04:29 AM
It might also be worth it to give Rancor or even Loxodon Warhammer a try because aside from their synergy with Flamespeaker, they also alleviate the TNN Problem by giving your creatures trample.