Beast Stompy

[Redkid43]

I've seen various takes on the Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors aggro decks in the form of Dragon Stompy, Werewolf Stompy, and even Soilder Stompy. I wanted to see if a green version is even possible. Unlike the White and Blue versions, we have a Spirit Guide. This can enable turn 1s that parallel Dragon Stompy. However, we don't have Magus of the Moon or even Blood Moon. We do have City of Solitude so just maybe there's something.

Much like the huge beat sticks in other Stompy decks, we have big dumb creatures. But since we are green, we have the BEST big dumb dudes...BEASTS! Threats like Thragtusk seem like game enders when coupled with Chalice and Sphere.

So what I'm proposing is this: a green Ancient Tomb aggro deck. What we lack in redundant disruption pieces we make up in strong threats and a fast clock.

My first draft:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Forest

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Thragtusk
4 Krosan Warchief
4 Ravenous Baloth
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Acidic Slime

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox

3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 City of Solitude
2 Beast Within

[Ace/Homebrew]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
8 Forest

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Thragtusk
4 Krosan Warchief
4 Ravenous Baloth
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Acidic Slime

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox

3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 City of Solitude
2 Beast Within

I'm hugely supportive of a :g: Stompy deck! Green is the only other color with a Spirit Guide, so the manabase can be directly ported over from Red Stompy.
The obvious downside of Green Stompy is not having access to 8 Blood Moons... and I don't think City of Solitude does enough.

A beast theme is cute, but I suspect it isn't powerful. Thragtusk seems high-impact enough to stay.
I'm sort of typing while thinking... so bear with me. :laugh:

Manabase (26)

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
10 Forest

That is what we need to power out something back-breaking on turn 1 or 2. So what is it we want to power out?

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

I think Garruk is a really strong card that allows us to accelerate into overwhelming threats.

4 Garruk Wildspeaker

That is 38 cards. Leaving us with 12 to go. It would really be nice to have another 3 drop...
I want some number of Wurmcoil Engine and Tragtusk. With Sol Lands and Garruk it is very plausible these threats can come down turn 3. They also counteract the life-loss from Tomb.

I'll keep thinking on this. It needs a reason why it is as good or better than 8 Moon Stompy though. Otherwise why play it...

[bakofried]

You can run Sylvan Library to fix your draws. Not many stompy decks have access to that. In addition, you have Zenith and Natural Order. Something to consider.

[klaus]

Just my 2 Pence:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
(20)

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch (this guy was insane in testing despite Chalice)
4 Thragtusk
3 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Loaming Shaman (not sure if needed)
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Rampaging Baloth
1 Progenitus
(21)

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
(8)

3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 GSZ
4 Natural Order
(11)

SB:
4 Choke (the meta is saturated with blue - nough said)
1 Loaming Shaman (I digg this dude here)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap (buys crucial time to get Chalice/Trini online against Combo)
1 Gaddock (I know, but it makes sense against Miracles & Storm)
2 Nullrod

You can also go through this advanced search for green creatures with CMC3 casting cost (Uncommon+) for inspiration:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//spoiler/display.php?&foil=nofoil&s_all=All&foil=nofoil&for=no&colormatch=OR&c%5BCCCC5%5D=G&multicolor=0&ccl=3&ccu=3&r%5BRRRR2%5D=U&r%5BRRRR3%5D=R&r%5BRRRR4%5D=M&t%5BT7%5D=Creature&g_all=All&sort1=4&sort2=1&sort3=10&numpage=25&display=1&startnum=0

PS: Natural Order seems interesting too:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/21198_Building-A-Legacy---Abusing-Green-Sun-s-Zenith-In-Legacy.html

[maharis]

Just my 2 Pence: 4 Ancient Tomb 2 City of Traitors 3 Cavern of Souls 11 Forest 4 Chrome Mox 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Thragtusk 4 Phyrexian Revoker 4 Thrun, the last Troll 2 Troll Ascetic 2 Eternal Witness 1 Acidic Slime 4 Trinisphere 4 Chalice of the Void 4 Garruk Wildspeaker 1 Umezawa's Jitte (you do need outs to Swarm Aggro) 1 Sword of Fire ad Ice (actually 2 Jittes might be the right call here) 1 Beast Within SB: 4 Choke (the meta is saturated with blue - nough said) 3 Loaming Shaman (I digg this dude here) 1 Sword of Light and Shadow 2 Krosan Grip 4 Mindbreak Trap (buys crucial time to get Chalice/Trini online against Combo) You can also go through this advanced search for green creatures with CMC3 casting cost (Uncommon+) for inspiration: http://sales.starcitygames.com//spoiler/display.php?&foil=nofoil&s_all=All&foil=nofoil&for=no&colormatch=OR&c%5BCCCC5%5D=G&multicolor=0&ccl=3&ccu=3&r%5BRRRR2%5D=U&r%5BRRRR3%5D=R&r%5BRRRR4%5D=M&t%5BT7%5D=Creature&g_all=All&sort1=4&sort2=1&sort3=10&numpage=25&display=1&startnum=0

Green Suns Zenith/Dryad Arbor package seems way better than Chrome Mox. With that change, this deck seems really good. GSZ+Sol lands+Wildspeaker is ridiculous.

[klaus]

Green Suns Zenith/Dryad Arbor package seems way better than Chrome Mox. With that change, this deck seems really good. GSZ+Sol lands+Wildspeaker is ridiculous.

Cool find!
Edited it in.

[maharis]

Cool find!
Edited it in.

Yep. I just threw a list on tappedout and tested it against a BUG delver list. I've never played a stomp variant before, are the openers always so ugly? haha.

Anyway, I had, on the play turn 1 chalice, turn 2 Trinisphere, turn 3 Thragtusk, and was totally blanked by a TNN. So we need a way to beat that. I figured since we have GSZ, we can toolbox it up a bit, and looked at the list of green creatures with flying or protection from blue. Then I remembered that we also have Natural Order. That also gives us t1 GSZ for Dryad Arbor, T2 Ancient Tomb-NO-Pro as a potential "combo" win if we need it.

[klaus]

Yep. I just threw a list on tappedout and tested it against a BUG delver list. I've never played a stomp variant before, are the openers always so ugly? haha.

Anyway, I had, on the play turn 1 chalice, turn 2 Trinisphere, turn 3 Thragtusk, and was totally blanked by a TNN. So we need a way to beat that. I figured since we have GSZ, we can toolbox it up a bit, and looked at the list of green creatures with flying or protection from blue. Then I remembered that we also have Natural Order. That also gives us t1 GSZ for Dryad Arbor, T2 Ancient Tomb-NO-Pro as a potential "combo" win if we need it.

see my link above.

Edit: edited my list above accordingly.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

4 Tomb
4 City
10 Forest
2 Dryad
4 Waste

4 GSZ
4 CotV
4 Trini
4 NO

4 ESG
4 Wall of Roots
3 Acidic Slime
4 Prime Titan
4 Sylvan Primordial
1 Prog

This should run over TNN like Prog over TNN. The LD package ramps us and keeps the opponent from comboing out under the 3sphere.
/bad idea

edit: built the deck in mws, drawn the opening seven, got no land, obv. Because blue is that much op that RUG delver gives you two ands plus ideal hand, while mono-G gives you no land out of 24... tl,dr: mws shuffler sucks

[Asthereal]

Goyf often isn't that good in a deck like this. You can safely cut one, I think, and Zenith for the one-of when it's good. I would like to suggest a Talara's Battalion instead. Its drawback can also be negated by Garruk Wildspeaker. Scavenging Ooze could be a decent option as well, because of its utility. Maybe you could even play both.

Perhaps something like this?

Creatures:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Talara's Battalion
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Reclamation Sage (M15 card, better than the Wickerbough Elder)
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Obstinate Baloth (cheaper than Thragtusk, nice anti-Lily/Hymn tech)
1 Progenitus
1 (Castable alternative Natural Order target, perhaps Rampaging Baloth) /18

Spells:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Sylvan Library (maybe this should be sideboard material, could swap with Jitte)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order /22

Lands:
5 Forest
1 Savannah (check the sideboard :-P)
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills (fetch can get you Dryad Arbor if needed)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors /20

Side:
1 Gaddock Teeg (hence the Savannah)
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
3 Umezawa's Jitte /15
(Neglecting grave hate right now - feel free to add some if you think you need it.)

[Zupponn]

There's a thread for this already:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14341-Deck-Mono-Green-Chalice-Aggro

[Freggle]

Man, you can call something Beast stompy and not have any love / mention of Wirewood Savage.

...you did hit Rampaging Baloth though and that card is Über awesome.

[Redkid43]

I really do like having Natural Order in this deck a lot.

I feel like this deck needs a really good three drop creature. The other thread is all about Spawnsire, but I think we can do better.

Possible Tangle Wire somewhere?

[Freggle]

References Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26516-Gw-LandHoes-a-k-a-BeastCrakers-2-0&highlight=beastcrakers) & here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21549-MonoG-Zenith-Abuse&highlight=zenith+abuse) for ideas as well.

[klaus]

Here's what I'd roll with (further inspired by AsTheReal):

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors (2 is max for me, since we don't have ways to return lands via LftL / Crucible as Stax does, or Moon effects to keep them)
13 Forest (took out Cavern, since it will likely lose you more games to being wastelanded or not "colory" than it will win with its ability)
1 Dryad Arbor
(20)

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thragtusk
3 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze (recent addition)
2 Reclamation Sage (two seems better than one)
1 Rampaging Baloth (tbt - to be tested :cool: )
1 Progenitus
(21)

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
(8)

3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 GSZ
4 Natural Order (upped by one)
(11)

SB:
4 Choke
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Umezawa's Jitte (probably no better SB card against Aggro out there)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock
2 Nullrod

@mods: probably save to merge this with the threads above

[Asthereal]

If you run the big Baloth and four Natural Orders, I would definitely play 6 fetches for Forests, because they can fetch up Arbor so you can sac it for Order, and the big Baloth just loves some double landfall action. :smile:

Other than that it looks like mostly difference in taste. I really want 4x Garruk and 8x Sol Land, and the Hierarchs seem a bit too much to me, but that's just how I see this deck. :cool:

[Redkid43]

My friend and I came on this list:


4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
8 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bellowing Tanglewurm
3 Thragtusk
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Indrik Stomphowler
3 Natural Order
2 Progenitus
1 NO Target.

I like this look, but it seems really dependent on GSZ to get creatures. I would rather stick to a nice group of creatures (much like Dragon Stompy) and use Zenith to act as additional copies of any threat.

As for the other NO Target besides Progenitus, I like either Sylvan Primordial or Woodfall Primus.

EDIT: The deck really lacks a good three drop creature. Like I've said before--I think maybe Spawnwrite plus equipment could work...

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thragtusk
3 Argothian Wurm
1 Progenitus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Chrome Mox

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

[klaus]

Have you tested your list? It seems like there are some flaws:

4 City of Traitors -------- 4 = overkill, as stated you can't return them or moon them like other stompy variants
4 Ancient Tomb
8 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor ----------- why 2? Arbor actually only matters on turn1 via Zenith
3 Garruk Wildspeaker ------------ Garruk was uber in testing every time I casted him --> +1 imo
4 Chrome Mox ------------- I initially thought Mox would be the way to go, but the card disadvantage really hurts, especially since ESG already -1s us. Noble Hierarch offers almost the same effect and works nicely despite Chalice. Bonus: by adding 4 Fetches and 1 Savannah, Gaddock becomes reliably castable from the SB (GSZ helps too)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem ----------- looks neat on paper, but can't see this working as its effect is not one-sided (like with MUD)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thrun, the Last Troll --------- one of the strongest 4 drops here, I'd recommend 2-3
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bellowing Tanglewurm ------- interesting choice, though Garruk #4 is clearly better.
3 Thragtusk
1 Wall of Blossoms ------------ not strong enough imo.
1 Vexing Shusher --------------- interesting choice but probably SB material at best
1 Indrik Stomphowler ----------- you should read the ideas from some fellow advisors in this thread more carefully. Reclamation Sage is miles better.
3 Natural Order
2 Progenitus ------------------- -1 Prog + 1 NO
1 NO Target ----------- Rampaging Baloth worked nicely for me since it's a decent compromise between oomph and castability w/o NO

[Blastoderm]

As many have pointed out, you need strict advantages to playing green over red stompy with 8 blood moon. I think the most obvious reasons are:

- 4 Natural Order and 4 Green Sun's Zenith

Green Sun's Zenith adds consistency of opening hands by being able to get dryad arbor. Turn 2 sol land will allow you to get 4 mana. I've done this line of play many times to set up a turn 2 natural order. Later in the game it can grab 1 of bombs that you don't want to saturate your deck with.

What I'm testing now (which is basically the same as using moggcatcher in red stompy) is playing 4 skyshroud poacher and 3 deranged hermit main.

[klaus]

As many have pointed out, you need strict advantages to playing green over red stompy with 8 blood moon. I think the most obvious reasons are:

- 4 Natural Order and 4 Green Sun's Zenith

Green Sun's Zenith adds consistency of opening hands by being able to get dryad arbor. Turn 2 sol land will allow you to get 4 mana. I've done this line of play many times to set up a turn 2 natural order. Later in the game it can grab 1 of bombs that you don't want to saturate your deck with.
What I'm testing now (which is basically the same as using moggcatcher in red stompy) is playing 4 skyshroud poacher and 3 deranged hermit main.

Blastoderm, care to post your list? On paper Poacher & Hermit seem somewhat underpowered tbh. What are your new findings about that combo?

For reference here's my fine-tuned list:

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
13 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy (61st card)
1 Dryad Arbor
(21)

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Thragtusk
2 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Obstinate Baloth (life gain is vital - pun intended)
1 Progenitus
(19)

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Jitte
(9)

4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 GSZ
4 Natural Order
(12)

SB:
4 Choke
1 Loaming Shaman
2 City of Solitude (still not sure about this one)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock (can be cast off Hierarch and GSZ)
2 EE (against Swarm Aggro, EtW tokens - not sure if worth it though - unfortunately there are no green sweepers out there)

[FTW]

I used to play G stompy before Garruk was even a thing. Garruk makes ramping pretty sweet...

I'm still not convinced of the value of Noble Hierarch in a deck that hates on 1cc


//mana: 27
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
3 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor
13 Forest

//Haterate: 12
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ice Storm

//Engine: 12
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

//Bodies: 10
3 Thragtusk
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Acidic Slime
1 Progenitus
1 Sylvan Primordial

//Sideboard:
3 Choke
2 City of Solitude
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Obstinate Baloth


I guess it's hard to resolve Natural Order without Hierarch ramp/bodies, especially with Ice Storm as a non-creature. So if you guys are convinced that openers with Hierarch + Chalice are not awkward on your turn 1 play then maybe:
-3 Chrome Mox
-1 something
+4 Noble Hierarch

I'm a big fan of Ice Storm. This deck seems to jump to 4cc without adequate 3s. Disruptive opponents may not allow that. Ice Storm is a really solid piece of interaction at 3cc. Without Hierarch, Forests aren't as important and there might be room for 3-4 Wasteland.

Or is there some good green hatebear at 3cc?

[Memories of Memories]

Nosense playing less than 4 ancient and 4 xity with Garruk: this is the base of all stompy deck, here (unlike Demon Stompy) you have a great possibility of soften city's drawback.
Natural Order, Green Sun Zenith with toolbox and Sylvan Library are the main reasons of playing this deck. Spawnwrithe and Thrun are perfect cc3 and cc4 drops, you have ESS and Garruk: what you have to do is smash the board with unmanageable creatures, break the game with NO (a bless for a Stompy Deck) and resolve some problems with Gsz to one of your toolbox creatures.
This is my list

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Progenitus
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
5 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy

2 Sylvan Library

3 Phyrexian Revoker

1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Qasali Pridemage(or reclamation sage, but qasali is better against SFM)

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void


SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Cursed Totem/Canonist
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher(Not Sure, maybe another pw like Ajani GW or Garruk 3.0)

I've been playing Stompy deck since 2008 and i've tested all the colors, green too (with Metalcraft-Carapace Forger-Ezuri's Brigade ecc): i think that Trinisphere, without denial, is... outdated. Yeah, gg against storm. But against others?
T1 trinisphere (the best of it's power) OTD against land-DRS is... not so much, really. And DRS is everywhere now, so it's not a thing you can not consider.
And trinisphere in multiple copies or after first 2 turns is bad, very bad.

BTW, this is a consideration that who haven't played this deck for much time can't understand, i think: so go on testing it and you will see ^^

Edit: but Wasteland+Life from the loams+Trinisphere(Thalia?)+Library could be very, very sweet

[FTW]

Hmm I haven't played nonred stompy since before DRS so it's possible 3sphere is outdated. If so, Ice Storm is also too slow. But Loam+Wasteland might do the trick.

Still, 3sphere has value in forcing the opponent to use DRS and only casting 1 spell a turn, whereas without any resistors they can freely use Force of Will and Daze and do things like Abrupt Decay and drop a creature in the same turn. Seems dangerous.

If you don't open Chalice, what do you drop on turn 1 to interact with/lock out the opponent? Seems like you need something, even if its just Tangle Wire to buy time while you make land drops and ramp into Garruk or fatties.

[klaus]

I'm still not convinced of the value of Noble Hierarch in a deck that hates on 1cc

Hierarch, other than Mox, actually is a NO target.
Hierach pumps creatures, enables W (eg. for Gaddock), carries equipment, means no card disadvantage and well is a NO target.
The dissynergy between Hierarch and Chalice is mitigated by the fact, that:
1.) an early Chalice that sticks likely hurts the opponent way more
2.) Hierarch - just as Mox - actually only really impacts the game early on. So if you draw a Chalice'd Hierach, or a non-Chaliced Mox in the mid/late game, both are rather "meh".
3.) nevertheless I thought about adding a singleton Fauna Shaman as a GSZ target. Not only would she solve the edge case above, but also recycle late ESGs PLUS discards Progenitus, making it feasible to run it as the sole NO target, and thus basically saving a slot.
Damnit I just convinced myself :laugh:
Edited my list on the prior page accordingly by cutting Tarmo #2.

@ "no Trini": getting rid of Trini means close to 0% VS StormCombo preboard, and with all those Delver.decs running around, Trini on turn 1/2/3 can be back breaking. With that said, I find it subpar quite frequently too, so it could actually be replaced in theory.
I'd add Gaddock to the main then, increasing the preboard % against combo a bit and add a bit more oomph, by adding another equipment and two more beaters.

@ the full playset of City of Traitors: I disagree - as stated before, all other Stompy decks have a means to make up for its drawback (Moon it, or recur it). Rocking 2 feels safe, while 3 could also be OK, while 4 is most definitely just the wrong call.

[Sisyphos]

@ the full playset of City of Traitors: I disagree - as stated before, all other Stompy decks have a means to make up for its drawback (Moon it, or recur it). Rocking 2 feels safe, while 3 could also be OK, while 4 is most definitely just the wrong call.

Sorry, but your claim is absolutely unfunded. Dragon Stompy is actually the only deck that can ignore the drawback:

Angel Stompy - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2635-Deck-Angel-Stompy&p=806270&viewfull=1#post806270)
Demon Stompy - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8332-Deck-Demon-Stompy-%28Black-Chalice-Tomb-Aggro%29&p=198724&viewfull=1#post198724)
Faerie Stompy - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16742-Deck-Faerie-Stompy&p=768656&viewfull=1#post768656)
Mud - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-%28Metalworker%29&p=819191&viewfull=1#post819191)
Heck, even U/B-Tezzeret can support 8 sol lands without recursion or Moon effects, though 3 is the standard here. Link (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26246-Deck-8Tezz-dec-UB-Tezzeret&p=765015&viewfull=1#post765015)
(Yes I went there and included the Stompy decks that have not been played for years now.)

I'm conceding that you will find some lists for each deck type that cut a City, but the majority of lists play the full set and do so with reasonable success (at least as successful as all those decks have been), which makes it very likely that playing 4 Citys in such a deck is not "definitely just the wrong call". Could be that in this deck, 3 is better, have never played it, but the reasoning you try to use to support your list is inherently flawed, as statistics disprove it. Bottom line, do better fact checking next time. :wink:

Also never cut Trinisphere ever. Sure on paper drawing two sucks, but it starts to suck less after the first one gets destroyed/countered. On the other hand it wins a lot of games on its own. Apart from Storm, it rocks also against Elves, Reanimator, Dredge. Even against Delver. Sure, it will not counter the T1 Delver and DRS provides them with acceleration, but they will be limited to doing one thing each turn. They can no longer cast a thread on their turn and counter yours. They can't even Brainstorm and counter.

Finally why has nobody tried out the new Nissa?

[Memories of Memories]

^Quote about City, totally ^^
@Trini: as i said, cut trini is an hard thing to say but i think that it has done its time (it's an italian expression, think that's clear ^^). Obv if there are Dredge, storm, elves (trini just slows down them for 1 turn, 2 if you're OTP and it's in your first 7), RUG Delver, reanimator in your field trini worths its spaces, but in italian meta (Bug, Miracle, S&T, D&T, Elves) its advantages don't overtake its problems =/
New Nissa could be sweet, but i strongly doubt that she's better than Garruk 2GGG....

[Zupponn]

And don't forget the burn matchup:

Turn 1:
Mountain
Suspend Rift Bolt
Go

Okay
City of Traitors
Exile Elvish Spirit Guide
Trinisphere
lolololololol


It's even funnier on MODO when they sit there for 5 minutes trying to cast it.

[klaus]

*cough*
You are right, my point was indeed flawed and I oversimplified the context quite a bit.
I appreciate your feedback -but- :) there are some aspects that ask to be pointed out, since we're now indulging in a more comprehensive discussion.


Angel Stompy - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link
Demon Stompy - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link
Faerie Stompy - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link

One significant difference is that all of the above do boast more & arguably stronger 3 drops (something that's quite unfortunate for BeastStompy tbh) and generally work better on "City + Basic Land". Making the full playset of CoT definitely more feasible.
For reference...

AngelStompy (randomly picked):
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Trinisphere
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Baneslayer Angel
4 Exalted Angel
4 Glowrider
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Oblivion Ring
1 Umezawa's Jitte
--> Baneslayer is the -only- spell that cannot be cast off "2W".

DemonStompy (randomly picked last list on the thread):
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Bitterblossom
3 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Ophiomancer
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
--- 2 City of Traitors ---
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swamp
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Opal
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Desecration Demon
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
--> many other DemonStompy lists seem to run run Dark Ritual - also mitigating CoT's drawback and thus allow for the full playset.


Mud - plays 8 sol lands, no recursion, no Blood Moon. Link

You are right: MUD always boasts the full playset - however we are talking about a completely different beast here (pun intended), since it plays out more like a combo deck in a way that it tries to accelerate into Grim Monolith / Metalworker asap, and thus easily makes up for CoT's drawback.


Heck, even U/B-Tezzeret can support 8 sol lands without recursion or Moon effects, though 3 is the standard here. Link
Signets and Talismen make it possible to ramp up to 4 mana, while Mox Diamond handily recycles CoTs beyond the early game. And yet 3 seems to be the agreed upon number of CoT judging by the thread's last pages.
-

Now let's peek at our "Beast" - I'm aware the lists / ideas (of course including mine) here are fare from thoroughly tested, but that's what we're working with atm..
........ I was just going to start explaining, why 4 CoTs doesn't work here as nicely, but changed my mind about 5 seconds ago. Hahaha!
Why? ... there are actually several reasons!
1.) NO makes this a combo-ish deck, so going all-in is somewhat part of the deal. CoT is an all-in thing - its drawback is partially made up by Progenitus's testicles in that respect.
2.) Hierarch & GSZ allow for ramping up beyond 3 mana even if CoT was your 2nd land drop
3.) Garruk: turn 1 Forest, turn 2 City + ESG into Garruk mitigates CoT draw significantly if you read his first ability.

F*** it imma go with 4 and see how it flows...

Edit:
For the Chrome Mox lists: I'd seriously consider running 2 Choke in the MD :cool:

[Memories of Memories]

the last list of Des is mine, and i run 2 city here because there are wasteland an 7x mox ^^ Don't extrapolate a single thing from a very different list =)
This deck lacks a good drop 3 creature: Spawnwrithe on turn1 is a very good card indeed (OTP it's gg against bug, lol), just saying, if he manages to copy himself one time game will turn on our side quickly ^^
True matter no all-in cards with NO: Because of all this reasons, i think that the best manabase would contain:
4 ESG
3-4 Chrome Mox
8x sol lands
+11-12 other lands
+1 Dryad

ESG is good because is a creature when we need it but we haven't Moon to maxime the risk's payoff, while Mox gives us a stable green mana perfect for drop a 3, 4 the turn after

[klaus]

the last list of Des is mine, and i run 2 city here because there are wasteland an 7x mox ^^ Don't extrapolate a single thing from a very different list =)
This deck lacks a good drop 3 creature: Spawnwrithe on turn1 is a very good card indeed (OTP it's gg against bug, lol), just saying, if he manages to copy himself one time game will turn on our side quickly ^^
True matter no all-in cards with NO: Because of all this reasons, i think that the best manabase would contain:
4 ESG
3-4 Chrome Mox
8x sol lands
+11-12 other lands
+1 Dryad
ESG is good because is a creature when we need it but we haven't Moon to maxime the risk's payoff, while Mox gives us a stable green mana perfect for drop a 3, 4 the turn after
As stated above, I strongly favor Noble Hierarch over Mox since it's NO fodder, and means no card disadvantage.
I'm not sure about Spawnwrithe since it becomes super meh after turn 1.

[Memories of Memories]

I think that NH here is... bad. Not horrible, just bad.
I mean, it's good only in Open Hand if you can play it on turn1: you never want to zenith him, never.
But this deck can count on gsz>dryad on turn 1 (often done in my game), then land/Sol land and go. This without speaking about Chalice, summon sickness, p.fire/removal...
Chrome Mox is stable, fast, this deck could do big thing on turn 2 (NO, Thrun, Garruk+drop2/3): mox is perfect to do that without exposing yourself.
BTW, done some games with this list: win against Jund, Ant, Elves, Miracle and lost against ever turn 2 Omniscence 1-2
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Progenitus
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Sylvan Library
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Thragtusk
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Chrome Mox
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed

[Zupponn]

I would recommend giving Stingerfling Spider a chance for a sideboard slot. It's incredibly good in Legacy if you can get it on the board, which this deck can easily do.

Here are a few cards that it can ETB kill:

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Griselbrand
Serra Avenger
Tombstalker


And here's a few that it can also block and live to tell the tale:

Insectile Aberration
Flickerwisp
Vendilion Clique


And this doesn't even include all the ground pounders the Spider can keep at bay/kill in combat.

[klaus]

I think that NH here is... bad. Not horrible, just bad. I mean, it's good only in Open Hand if you can play it on turn1: you never want to zenith him, never.
You'd be surprised how often I Zenith into him! I do it all the time actually. You'd also be surprised about how frequently I got Arbor and Hierarch on the battlefield next to each other. GSZ multiplying as mana accel beyond Arbor feels really good. In fact I'm so pleased with his performance that I'm considering another mana dude in addition. Here's a comprehensive list of pro arguments:
* NO fodder
* carries equipment
* pumpable via Garruk's ultimate (has won me games)
* chump blocker if need be
* pumps attackers
* enhances a light W splash for Sigarda / Q. Pridemage / Gaddock / RiP (as you boast yourself)
* no card disadvantage - I really hate this about Chrome Mox here: ESG and NO already mean card disadvantage - I don't need another play set that one-for-two's me - especially since we have hardly any means for C/A.
Related to your C/A choices: I don't fancy MD Revoker here, since we have no MoR to protect him and no Flickerwisp to reset him. Sylvan Library is debatable though my gut tells me Ancient Tomb already eats quite some life points already, which makes it kind of meh against anything Aggro. I could indeed see this as a SB choice, though I'd rather max out to the full play set of Chokes before adding it.
* also: a singleton Fauna Shaman acts as a recycler when Chalice has hit the battlefield
-
That being said, I do see that Mox's impact is stronger if your list features Spawnwrithe. Tell me a bit more about your findings here. I'm actually a bit intrigued, but hesitant to apply serious testing due to him getting meh after turn one.

Some more questions:
* Why QPMage over Reclamation Sage (MD VS SB)?
* Why 3 RiPs? 2 Oozes + 4 GSZs is quite a bit of gy hate imo. I like a singleton Loaming Shaman in the board against Dredge, since oozing obviously takes too long once they got going.
* Why only 3 Garruks? For me it's been super powerful basically every time he showed
* I do like Ruric in the SB. For which MUs do you bring him in?
-
On a different note (@Sysiphos):
I tested 4 CoT a bit now and actually wasn't too pleased, which is why I'll settle for 3 for the time being (though I can tell that 4 is the right number if you run Spawnwrithe)

Edit I: I replaced my SB Mindbreak Traps with Revokers in the SB, as naming LED should slow Combo down sufficiently until we drop Chalice / Trini. Decisive benefit being, it can come in in more MUs.

Edit II. here's my current list for reference (including some inline questions):

4 ESG
4 Hierarch
4 Garruk
4 NO
3 Trini
4 Chalice
4 GSZ
(27)
1 Prog
1 Ooze
1 Goyf
1 Shaman
2 R. Sage
2 Thrun
1 Thragtusk
Obstinate Baloth ---------- not convinced yet, but possibly > Thragtusk #2 due to CMC
1 Batterskull --------------- I feel like it would be superior to Thragtusk /O. Baloth #2, while fulfilling a similar role - thoughts?
1 Jitte
(39)

6 Fetch
1 Savannah
5 Forest
4 Tomb
1 Cradle ------------------ testing
3 City
1 Canopy
(21)

1 Ruric ------------------- testing
1 RiP
1 Loaming Shaman
3 Revoker --------------- testing, but positive it will stay
1 Canonist --------------- testing
4 Choke
1 Gaddock
1 Krosan Grip
1 EE
1 Jitte

@Zupponn: Ruric seems way better than your spidy :-)

[Memories of the Time]

You'd be surprised how often I Zenith into him! I do it all the time actually. You'd also be surprised about how frequently I got Arbor and Hierarch on the battlefield next to each other. GSZ multiplying as mana accel beyond Arbor feels really good. In fact I'm so pleased with his performance that I'm considering another mana dude in addition.

Turn 1 Dryad arbor Turn 2 NH is an horrible plan even for Maverick, here means no pressure for opponent until turn 4. This is an horrid plan for every stompy, even if it has NO to overturn the table.
Land-NH is better than land-gsz-dryad, ok, but if you don't play NH on turn1 it begins to be horrible (going under Chalice, also). Stompy deck doesn't need a mana accel that begins to work at turn3, at this point your opponent must have received 1-2 attacks from you ^^



Here's a comprehensive list of pro arguments:
* NO fodder
* carries equipment
* pumpable via Garruk's ultimate (has won me games)
* chump blocker if need be
* pumps attackers
* enhances a light W splash for Sigarda / Q. Pridemage / Gaddock / RiP (as you boast yourself)
* no card disadvantage - I really hate this about Chrome Mox here: ESG and NO already mean card disadvantage - I don't need another play set that one-for-two's me - especially since we have hardly any means for C/A.

First 4 arguments are valid for every green creature, don't mean much... And don't think that the seconds 3 drown out the disvantages.
No Card Disvantage is the main point, obv, but as i have said above he's a 0/1 who goes under Chalice, die from anything, gives mana only the turn after, isn't gsz-able on turn 1 (unless you have Mox/ESG)....
Anyway, test it and you will see how often you'll curse because of it ^^ NH isn' a good accel neither a good creature, and stompy decks need efficient card.

BTW, in a list with 4-5 equip NH buys more sense (still not enough, for me):anyway, i never never want to play a stompy deck with less than 2 equip (and BS isn't one). 2 is still too few, and if i could obtain another slot i'll put a SOFI without doubt (and i need it to power up Spawnwhrite adn Thrun, our main guys).
-Qsali worths against Stoneforge-BS, where Reclamation gives our opponent a timewalk. And the exalted matter too...
-Rip is a perfect card against BGx midrange/ tempo decks, resolving all the problems with 2 mana: ooze is a great card because is a creature and becomes big, but it isn't a hatebear... Rip works well against storm, reanimator, dredge...
-Yeah Garruk is wonderful. But i have to find the place for the third equip before 4° of him.
-Ruric is a great card, blows up Combo and Control alone. I'm thinking about taking him maindeck because you can gsz him.

The problem of your list, klaus, is that seems it hasn't a very specific plan. Too few equips and big guys to be an aggro deck, too few protections to be a NO decks (there are other decks that could use NO better than us, here it must be a B-Plan). Trinisphere (whitout any synergy like waste+loam and so) contributes at this idea, bothering your opponent (with seesawing results) without doing anything else...

[klaus]

Turn 1 Dryad arbor Turn 2 NH is an horrible plan even for Maverick, here means no pressure for opponent until turn 4. This is an horrid plan for every stompy, even if it has NO to overturn the table.
The flaw of your reasoning is that you apply it in a vacuum, while every second opponent will likely try to Wasteland the sh** out of your mana base - something that I actually missed to mention in NH's favor.




First 4 arguments are valid for every green creature, don't mean much
*cough*, remember that we're not comparing NH with just another creature, but with Chrome Mox and last time I checked, Mox was neither a chump blocker, nor GSZable, nor equipable, nor a NO target. It does produce mana though, I'll give you that - though just one color, unless you imprint your singleton QPM.



... And don't think that the seconds 3 drown out the disvantages.
Not sure what you mean by that.



Anyway, test it and you will see how often you'll curse because of it .
Already gone there and not looking back actually, though I will test your Chrome Mox build if I get the chance.



-Qsali worths against Stoneforge-BS, where Reclamation gives our opponent a timewalk. And the exalted matter too...
I'm not sure why RSage would provide timewalks for our opponents - could you elaborate? IMO there are two major upsides here: 1.) way easier to cast (GW << 2G - remember that we run Tomb and CoT) // 2.) you don't have to sac it. But thanks for stressing that Exalted matters, as that's just another upside I value about NH.



The problem of your list, klaus, is that seems it hasn't a very specific plan.
I agree that yours is more focused in that it likes to go all-in, while mine is a bit mid-rangier, but maybe you'll just have to test a few games to see that this is not a downside.

[Memories of the Time]

Before all: i'm italian and if something isn't clear that's the cause ^^ i need certain terms
What i think:
NH is a good T1 play. Solid, forest-nh means no wasteland, if she gets bolt o stp we can agree to that. After turn 1 NH's benefits begin to decrease: turn 2 NH isn' a good play, we can't be happy to take our second turn to gsz her doing *nothing*. After turn 3 he's a 0/1 guy: bear equip, no feed etc. OK
Chrome Mox is a perfect t1 play, allowing us to do awesome thing like Spawnwhrite t1, jitte, chalice (most important), thrun/Garruk with Esg-another chrome mox. T2 Chrome Mox is still good, often he give us the necessary 4° mana. After turn 3 it's benefits begin to decrease: much faster, no doubts. Often useless.

Now, what we want to do? T1 Chalice is one of the reasons because of we play a Stompy deck. First 2-3 turns are the most important, and in these turns Chrome Mox is almost always better. If you don't like dead cards in the late game, stompy is not a great deck: anyway i'll test NH, but i think the matter NH/Chrome mox is the matter GW/MonoG Stompy, in short.

-T2 SFM to BS means we can't attack on our T3 OTD/Turn 4 OTP without crushing against Batterskull. Qasali on board allow us to do so, this is the main reason ^^.

-My list isn't an all-in one. BTW you can't leave aside Sylvan Library, one card that all other stompy decks envy us.
Changed my list: cut Phyrexian Revoker for more equip and changed sideboard.

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Progenitus
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Thragtusk
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Chrome Mox
1 Reclamation Sage (Qasali if NH is on the list)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 2 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Dosan the Falling Leaf

[klaus]

SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
Finally something we can agree on :tongue:
I've been liking this guy ever since D&T started abusing him - thanks again for bringing him up.
MDing him didn't make sense to me either, but from the board he's actually a house, even more than with non-Stompy lists, since we can slam him down on turn 1.

[Memories of the Time]

Revoker MD makes sense, is a great card: Liliana, DRS, Sneak, Top, Jace, Led, SFM the main reasons. But with only 2 equips it's too weak, isn't NO feed ecc.
(Btw, i've been using before far before D&T in Most :tongue: )

[pfiremc13]

I think the descrepancies here come down to your lists. As klaus mentioned, memories' version is more aggro-y, while klaus' version is more midrange-y. As a result, different cards are better. Mox is better in an aggro list because it doesn't care about the CA so much as going faster, while a midrange version needs the card and doesn't need to be as fast. The same thing applies with wreck sage vs. qasali--qasali is faster but you have to sac it.

The deck is really cool; I hope you guys have succes with it.

[Barook]

Lejay 3-1'ed a Daily event with a rather spicy build today. Highlight was probably blowing out Numot on stream with two 128/128 Kalonian Hydras.

Hopefully we get a list posted sooner or later.

[Memories of the Time]

Lejay 3-1'ed a Daily event with a rather spicy build today. Highlight was probably blowing out Numot on stream with two 128/128 Kalonian Hydras.

Hopefully we get a list posted sooner or later.

Yeah, i'm very interested :laugh:

[Barook]

Aside from the Hydras, he ran MD CotV, Trinisphere, Obstinate Baloth + Thragtusk + Courser of Kruphix for massive life gain and extra draw with Sylvan Library. That were the main cards I saw in his replays. There was also other stuff like Reclamation Sage, ESG, Chrome Mox and Taiga for SB Ruination and Firespout.

[Mystical_Jackass]

This is MGCA. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?14341-Deck-Mono-Green-Chalice-Aggro Around that time the Stompy theme was a big thing when Chalice was running string, I think it'd been called Elephant Stompy and other stuff for a bit.

Anyways, I really suggest reading through his post. You don't want to re-invent the wheel and find out you're running a worse build of something years before, some interesting things you'll want to see are inclusion of llanowar elves, lack of City of Traitors, Natural Order, Garruk, etc. You really need to consider proven lists, juggle the ideas, then from there start to make decisions like "does Thragtusk merit an inclusion here", etc.

[apple713]

Aside from the Hydras, he ran MD CotV, Trinisphere, Obstinate Baloth + Thragtusk + Courser of Kruphix for massive life gain and extra draw with Sylvan Library. That were the main cards I saw in his replays. There was also other stuff like Reclamation Sage, ESG, Chrome Mox and Taiga for SB Ruination and Firespout.

i caught him on cockatrice testing it and it looked like this. (from memory). At the time he didn't have hydras in but had something i can't remember. he made good arguments for all of the cards however the deck doesn't seem great on paper.

Threats

4 Thragtusk - miracles / terminus
4 Obstinate Baloth - offset dmg loss tombs / library, good vs discard / liliana, fair beater
1 Thrun, the Last Troll - counters
4 Green Sun's Zenith - pseudo card advantage
2 Sylvan Library - card advantage
1 Death Rite Shaman - grave hate easily tutor able / accel
2 Kalonian Hydra - was not in deck when i saw it
2 Scavenging Ooze - grave hate
2 Umezawa's Jitte - obvious
1 Courser of Kruphix - tutor able accel / card advantage / life loss offset


Lock pieces

3 Choke - so much blue in meta
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere


Mana

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox

Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest


His sideboard was rather random and not set in stone and i can't recall anything from it actually.


When i played the deck it lost almost every game to merfolk (played about 3 matches)... indicating to me it is just an inferior creature deck because any deck can run the cotv / trini combo with sol lands. It actually inspired my to build a white version.

[Lejay]

I created a thread with my decklist since mtggoldfish had it since a few days and it is quite different from other decklists I read about.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28759-Sylvan-Plug-(or-whatever-splashed-Green-stompy)