Should we be playing snow-covered basics?

[lordofthepit]

It seems there are no relevant downsides in Legacy to playing snow-covered lands (let me know if you ever see an Icequake), but you can represent being on something like an Into the North deck by playing snow-covered forests.

It's a very marginal benefit, but every possible edge can help in competitive play.

[Norm]

Downside: they look like crap

[Tylert]

I think that in the Salvation thread of Death and taxes, there were some people advocating that way of playing.
It's on the same line as playing wasteland or port first rather than a withe source before playing vial so your opponent can't put you on D&T if you play a plain and may think that you are playing goblins... (Or merfolk if they play wastelands).

But I agree with the above poster, the advantage gained is so thin that i will keep playing my 3rd edition jesper myfrors plains :smile:.

[Undomian]

I think that in the Salvation thread of Death and taxes, there were some people advocating that way of playing.

Leave it to Salvation to think that a Snow-Covered Plains will put them on The Mighty Quinn rather than D&T...

[TsumiBand]

I thought Scrying Sheets was the go-to 'we should play more Snow cards' card.

"I'm happy for you Into the North and I'munna let you resolve, but Scrying Sheets draws into one of the best 20/20s of all time"

The thing of it is, the upshot is so meager that it's really hard to find anything that warrants their inclusion in the first place. If Into the North were worth playing, there are arguably stronger cards that see no play without begging the question; after all, we can cast Nature's Lore to go get Bayou, but no one really does.

Land ramp has the same problem as discard, right - by itself, it doesn't really do anything and it's a terrible topdeck. Obviously that does not mean that mana acceleration sucks, it just means that we've long since accepted that it works best when it's tacked onto a permanent instead of a spell, like an artifact (something something Mox) or a creature, even if it's easily outclassed like Birds of Paradise.

I realize Into the North is a specific example trying to describe a general one; however, what really is the biggest haymaker you can land with snow cards? (This has nothing to do with anything but I have the weirdest urge to stand up from my cubicle and shout "Snow time, Synergy". I probably won't.)

[Megadeus]

Just play Skred because it's the red STP right?

[TsumiBand]

Just play Skred because it's the red STP right?

https://img.4plebs.org/boards/x/image/1366/24/1366241712835.jpg

People run that ish in EDH and I'm like bwaaa. Sweet one-mana maybe-removal spell kinda, way to Tim something Godo.player

[amalek0]

Into the North fetches Dark Depths... I mean, it's not like it's a completely useless tutor, there was a deck in one of the last BoM trials that was UG dark depths and had into the north. It won the trial, so it must not've been terrible. TBH, if someone plays a snow basic in a legacy event, I'm more likely to put them on reanimator/gifts style decks than anything else, since the traditional use for snow basics in competitive play has been as a gifts target.

[iamajellydonut]

Downside: they look like crap

Pretty much. I mean, I could put in a Snow Swamp and Snow Forest into my really B/G heavy builds and fake Dark Depths... or I could run lands that are intimidatingly handsome.

In seriousness, there's a lot of tricky mindgames you can do with your deck that have little to no functional difference from the standard. From running "off color" fetches to splits of functionally identical cards to whatever else I don't really care. More to the point is that there's a lot of things you can do, and there's a fine line between a clever ruse and your opponent determining you to be a ridiculous idiot.

[Lord Seth]

Into the North is worth playing in 12-Post if you're playing Dark Depths, though you'll of course want your Forests to be snow-covered then.

[Lejay]

Running snow-covered basics when your deck can represent something else with them is a tiny reward/zero risk smart move that some players do.
Posting about it on a public forum has negative value to be polite.

[Finn]

I have accidentally used snow lands from time to time and had opponents query me about it. I wonder if I was able to jedi them into thinking I had something up my sleeve.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Downside: they look like crap

Whoah what the shit

[Megadeus]

I have accidentally used snow lands from time to time and had opponents query me about it. I wonder if I was able to jedi them into thinking I had something up my sleeve.

I've played them for the lulz because I only had revised and those on me at the time. Sometimes people get a bit confused. I think I had a guy ask me if they were even legal lol

[Ace/Homebrew]

There's a lot of things you can do, and there's a fine line between a clever ruse and your opponent determining you to be a ridiculous idiot.

I write SNOW across the face of my basic lands with a black sharpie. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time. :wink:

[Finn]

I write SNOW across the face of my basic lands with a black sharpie. Sixty percent of the time, it works every time. :wink:
Sixty per...wait, what? I don't know what to make of your percentages there.

Also, I was judging a lot of sealed during Odyssey, Onslaught, and Mirrodin blocks. The venue had quite a few original snow lands mixed in with the other basics in their public box, and we occasionally had issues with teenagers who had not been around for Ice Age accidentally using snow-covered lands not even knowing such a thing existed. Then you would get some salty veteran hoping to get a freebie, calling the neophyte for cheating. That soured me a lot on tournament culture.

And then there was the punk who had convinced his opponent (and tried to convince me, lying face to face) that he had killed the guy with Price of Progress. Granted. His opponent had a miserable Withering Wisps/protection from black deck. But all those Snow-covered Swamps were basic lands.

Snow lands are a festering scabies pustule on the middle-aged ass of Magic rules.

[iamajellydonut]

Running snow-covered basics when your deck can represent something else with them is a tiny reward/zero risk smart move that some players do.
Posting about it on a public forum has negative value to be polite.

Of the meager jedi mindtricks that you can build into your deck, sometimes the most simple can be the most effective. Especially ones that impact turn one or turn two decisions. But Snow Lands? There are three possible routes for mindtricks, all of which are easily seen through or ignored and have no impact on the early game. If anyone actually falls for the Snow Lands, whether a mindtrick or a rules punt, they might actually be retarded. Though, I am a charitable man, so I wrote up this guide for said idiots...

1) Snow-Covered Lands are not non-basic lands.

2) If your opponent plays a Snow-Covered Plains... Your opponent is possibly playing Scrying Sheets. Give them a blue scratch-and-sniff sticker and congratulate them on their deck choice in the event that they do play Scrying Sheets.

3) If your opponent plays a Snow-Covered Mountain.... Your opponent is possibly playing Skred. The thing to be careful of is that Skred can potentially deal 3 (or more) damage to a creature. Which is huge for red and can be a pretty big shock if you're not used to it. Keep an eye out for inefficient synergistic options that may work with Skred to let it hit you directly. They may not be playing those inefficient synergistic options though, so you may have to play it safe and remember that they could draw a low mana cost direct damage creature removal spell at any time

4) If your opponent plays a Snow-Covered Forest, Swamp, or Island... You're possibly playing against Into the North. This is probably the trickiest of the three to identify as you can never count it out since there's only 48 to 75 completely identifying cards associated with Into the North in any deck running it depending on the build. You kind of just have to always play as though it's a possibility that they may have Dark Depths in their deck. Your best bet if you see a deck with one of these basic lands and still aren't sure after game one if they have Into the North in their deck is to sideboard in all your copies of Extract so that you know exactly what they're playing.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Sixty per...wait, what?

Brian Fantana: No, she gets a special cologne... It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.

Ron Burgundy: It's quite pungent.

Brian Fantana: Oh yeah.

Ron Burgundy: It's a formidable scent... It stings the nostrils. In a good way.

Brian Fantana: Yep.

Ron Burgundy: Brian, I'm gonna be honest with you, that smells like pure gasoline.

Brian Fantana: They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time.

[Megadeus]

Brian Fantana: No, she gets a special cologne... It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.

Ron Burgundy: It's quite pungent.

Brian Fantana: Oh yeah.

Ron Burgundy: It's a formidable scent... It stings the nostrils. In a good way.

Brian Fantana: Yep.

Ron Burgundy: Brian, I'm gonna be honest with you, that smells like pure gasoline.

Brian Fantana: They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time, it works every time.

Best movie ever made.

[nodahero]

Can anyone post the UG Dark Depths build or even a link to it?

[Lord Seth]

Can anyone post the UG Dark Depths build or even a link to it?Is there a UG Dark Depths build? The Dark Depths builds I've seen are mono-Green, like this (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69125) one.

[lordofthepit]

I agree they look like shit.

My inspiration for considering snow-covered basics came from watching a stream in which an opponent went green fetchland into Snow-Covered Forest. The streamer put him on Elves or Maverick, but the fact that it's Snow-Covered was a dead giveaway to me that the opponent was on Turbo Post.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't be swapping the Forests in my Elves deck for Snow-Covered Forests at least, since this seems like the only basic land type where you could credibly represent another archetype. If only they looked like Beta forests. :frown:

[Megadeus]

I agree they look like shit.

My inspiration for considering snow-covered basics came from watching a stream in which an opponent went green fetchland into Snow-Covered Forest. The streamer put him on Elves or Maverick, but the fact that it's Snow-Covered was a dead giveaway to me that the opponent was on Turbo Post.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't be swapping the Forests in my Elves deck for Snow-Covered Forests at least, since this seems like the only basic land type where you could credibly represent another archetype. If only they looked like Beta forests. :frown:

To be fair, with elves, how often are you playing a turn 1 forest and not casting something that is basically a dead giveaway to what you are playing?

[iamajellydonut]

To be fair, with elves, how often are you playing a turn 1 forest and not casting something that is basically a dead giveaway to what you are playing?

As much as it pains me to admit similarities, they can share Green Sun's Zenith. Fortunately, that's where the similarities end.

[Finn]

I admit ignorance to Anchorman references. That movie did not do it for me. I'm lucky I did not choose to make fun of your statement.

[TsumiBand]

I admit ignorance to Anchorman references. That movie did not do it for me. I'm lucky I did not choose to make fun of your statement.

I eschew every movie centered around Will Farrell, with the exception of Stranger Than Fiction. Yeah, I'm "that guy", IDGAF. vOv

I'm not entirely positive that Into the North's synergy with one tutorable card means that all of Snow lands are worth a look - it's akin in my mind to suggesting Stoneforge Mystic makes Bonesplitter a better card. It's a two-way street; if there had never been any "Sword of Bill and Ted" cycle or if Batterskull had been conceived a little differently, we might not be playing SFM at all, but we have those cards and so the limited tutor aspect of SFM makes it a worthwhile card. Into the North gets Dark Depths, sweet -- but it's pretty hard to argue for a ton of other snow cards, for the sake of playing moar Snow.

I still maintain that Scrying Sheets being the one other playable Snow land and not seeing play is indicative of this trend in Snow cards. Shit mang, it says "2, T: Draw a card" on it. Tempo and control decks should have been snowing the fuck out of their mana bases if that effect were worthwhile, but it didn't really happen because the rest of the Snow cards aren't strong enough to keep the success rate closer to 1.

I'd be all about seeing more Snow or other rando elementally-supertyped cards, but "dicking with types" seem to be another way of spelling "DOA" for any given mechanic (Arcane, Tribal... :/) so maybe it's better left on the shelf -- but if they did ever return to a Snowy plane and maybe raise the playability of Snow things, this would be a more interesting discussion. As it stands there's only one-offs to playing Snow stuff beyond a handful of spells that it's not even a pro or a con really, just a "why bother".

[Bed Decks Palyer]

IDK how I could throw them into RUG Thresh without being ridiculous.

Otoh, when I was building some casual pile a month or two ago, I thought about the GW snowlands. Yet they don't work well in ICE-WTH environment, because something something Jamuraa. So I sticked to normal ICE lands (as Mirage bushes are awful), thus having a manabase made completely of Allice:

10 Forest
5 Plains
4 Brushland
3 Thawing Glaciers

4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Wall of Roots
4 River Boa
4 Jolrael's Centaur
4 Maro
4 Serrated Biskelion

2 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Armageddon
2 Reprisal
1 Disenchant

http://i.imgur.com/TCazJ.jpg