[metamagic] Trolls and plowshares

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Motto:
Back to the most basic of Magic: green-white and creature-based.


A public lamentations of GW enthusiast.


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Wi8O0INITS8/SADinuGq0hI/AAAAAAAAAJQ/rgIrr3l9rmc/s320/troll+ascetic.jpg

I always loved a green-white color combination and over the years I played lots of creature decks built around this color combination. As I moved into Legacy sometime around 2007 or so, it didn't take much time to switch into blueX decks (esp. once I dipped deeper in the tournament scene), as the color blue is clearly the most overpowered in game, which is mainly seen in Eternal formats. This had little to do with my love for green-white, but instead with my love for winning. But it was still somewhere in the back/bottom parts of my brain: I should play that what I like, not that what is the easiest to play.

Over the years I accumulated quite some staples in GW and as I'm quite fed up with Legacy now, there's nothing else that can save my MtG "carrier" than going back to what I liked about the whole MtG itself (creatures and control), not about the one part of the game (tournament scene).

Back in 1997-8, I built my first "real" GW deck, quite a usual (and by this era also quite an outdated) Erhnamgeddon which was briefly turned into Willowgeddon, once I realized how extremely powerful that beautiful legend is, especially paired with Nature's Blessing and Jayemdae Tome.
Then when six-mana legends became non-viable in our meta (or maybe it was for some other reason, idk), I switched into a bit faster Marogeddon. The deck was tuned to fight the metagame (which frankly started to consist of about three people including yours truly, as our kitchen tables became more and more abandoned; this process led into me entering the competitive scene, but this happened nearly a decade later), although it definitely wasn't the best one I could have come with. (Even back then I knew that I should play blue and preferably something with either a combo finish, or heavy control power.)
Fast forward into INV-7ED-DIS Extended. I'm playing GW Haterator and having lots of fun and cheap wins at a PTQ. I just wish that there'd be three cards available: Swords to Plowshares for creatures, Armageddon to fight control decks plus Heartbeat Desire and then of course Tormod's Crypt to stop Friggorid. The latter was reprinted few months later, but the unavailability of the pair of creature and lands control elements, was what definitely moved me away from GW... then from Extended... then into Legacy... and blue.

I'm still willing to build the decks that win and the ones that may see a competitive play, but it isn't my main concern. If you wish to follow my "miniblog" feel free to chime in with any idea, criticism.


***

DISCLAIMER: In the above text I used the phrase "build the deck" quite often; I will continue using it even further. This shouldn't imply I was the one who invented the deck, it simply means that I put the cards into one pile to form a Magic: the Gathering constructed deck. There are strange beings outside that always get very excited about the usage of a "I build a deck" or "this is my deck" and similar phrases, going nuts "you didn't build it" etc. Technically speaking... yes. But isn't it much more convenient to simply say "this is my deck" than to say "these are the sixty plus fifteen cards I own that thrown together form a constructed deck meant for playing the game of Magic?"

My green-white collected dust for years. Except for an occasional troll attempt with Terrageddon, there was nothing more I done in this color combination, not counting some casual decks built for a case our group reunites. This must change, and I'm going to twiddle with green-white until I'll break the meta... hopefuly.

Follows a deck that I built and that I own. I'm interested in the public opinion on it's viability in Legacy, and how to improve it. Many thanks to Einherjer for the idea, it's a direct port of his Vintage hatebears deck.

//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
//\\
// Creatures
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
//\\
// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Rest in Peace
4 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst


As you might see, the idea is pretty straightforward: hate everything that everyone loves.
From my initial testing on MWS I'm under an impression that this is more powerful than Maverick. (Im not sure if it's better than DnT, but w-e, I'm still going to use GW.)

There are seven conditional Strip Mines to hate the usual Legacy manabase.
There are seven dudes that hate on searching the libraries.
There are four + three resistors.
There are three creatures to fight equipments and three to fight the graveyards.
There are three pithing bugs to stop any of JTMS, Top, Jitte or w-e.
There are ESGs to power out early backbreaking spells.
There are Wilt-Leaf Lieges to laugh at Lili and to get my 2/x and x/2 creatures past the blockers.
And there are eight removal spells for DRS, SFM, Goyf, younameit.

Do you find it reasonable, or should I rather concentrate on some other approach? Speaking of GW, I got everything. So if there's something else that should be done with creatures, geddons and swords to plowshares, let me know.


Thanks, BDP

[Admiral_Arzar]

I like 4 Razorverge Thicket a lot more than the 2/2 split with Sunpetal Grove. As someone who played a lot of Standard with the M10 duals, not drawing a land with a basic land type makes them terrible taplands (and you only have 8 lands with a basic land type). Also, I feel like there should probably be at least 1 Karakas in the 75.

[Arsenal]

You likely do not need 8 StP effects. 6 would be likely be fine versus the decks where it would matter and that would allow you to consider running something like Voice of Resurgence.

[Lemnear]

Is there a reason you dismiss GSZ or Noble Hierarch?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Is there a reason you dismiss GSZ or Noble Hierarch?

GSZ doesn't play well with Leonin Arbiter (neither does SFM which was my first thought). Not sure about Hierarch.

[Allcoin]

How about fleecemane, and loxodon smiter? Likely not smiter, but fleecemane is great.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I like 4 Razorverge Thicket a lot more than the 2/2 split with Sunpetal Grove. As someone who played a lot of Standard with the M10 duals, not drawing a land with a basic land type makes them terrible taplands (and you only have 8 lands with a basic land type). Also, I feel like there should probably be at least 1 Karakas in the 75.
I guess you might be right. I even thought about more Razorverges, becasue the only tiem when I need an untapped land is in the early turns, but I need it like really a LOT. A tapland that can't power out a turn1 resistor/fetchcensor is a really bad land.
One other thing I got in mind: maybe it'll be wise to increase lands count to say 26 and introduce Mox Diamond to further increase the chance of a turn1 stupid. (And to lessen the impact of Moon effects that simply kill this deck.)
I got no way how to find Karaks and even if I had one, it'll be pretty hard under Arbiter. So it's either 2-3 or none at all. For now I decided to not use the card.



You likely do not need 8 StP effects. 6 would be likely be fine versus the decks where it would matter and that would allow you to consider running something like Voice of Resurgence.
Yes.
The idea behind 8 swords is simple: I want to kill that DRS. Legacy is filled with decks that need the small elf and they crumble under their own weight once they cannot fix their greedy manabases. But maybe I may cut PtE to six or seven and add another Phyrexian Revoker, which is a body, an answer to DRS/Top/EE/etc.
Voice is interesting ,the other options are Aether Vial, Glowrider, maindecked SotL...



Is there a reason you dismiss GSZ or Noble Hierarch?
This:

GSZ doesn't play well with Leonin Arbiter (neither does SFM which was my first thought). Not sure about Hierarch.
Even in goldfishes I got quite some trouble with mana, as the deck is pretty hungry, you really want to vomit your bears asap. Playing GSZ after you played an Arbiter might be impossible task.
Hierarch doesn't help in turn1 brokeness. Otoh, relying on ESG might be stupid and then maybe I should add some other non-land mana, be it Mox Dia for explosive first turns, or NH for more reliable (read: Daze-proof) turns2 and onwards.
Also, the exalted bonus, although small one, definitely helps to get my dudes past any blocker.



How about fleecemane, and loxodon smiter? Likely not smiter, but fleecemane is great.
I thought about them. Smiter was my first pick, but then I decided for Wilt-Leaf Liege as it's a pretty solid body with an important ability that helps to protect my creatures from Pyroclasms, Bolts and non-4/5 blockers. Fleecemane Lion is nice, but what else does it offer?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Here's what I'm testing now, and so far so good. The changes are: trimmed down the number of creatures and StPs, added three Mox Diamonds and some (brush)lands:

//Qty Name
// Lands
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Brushland
//\\
// Creatures
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
//\\
// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Mox Diamond
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Rest in Peace
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst


This build is sick. I can quite reliably power out a turn1 Arbiter which seems to cripple lots of decks. Also, I love ESG, as surprise Mindcensors are... surprising.
Deck seems to lack equipment, though. First of all, my dudes are really small and even in the "mirror", this was pretty visible. Creatures other than Thalia and Aven got lots of trouble getting past even the most basic blocker. That's where Wilt-Leaf Lieges (and QPMs) help, but then again I play only two lords, so it's not like I see them in each game. I'd love to squeeze Jitte, SoFI and/or SolS into the deck, preferably a pair of Jittes to make Elves mu a bit better, and then either one or two swords. IDK what to cut, third Gaddock looks a bit redundant, then maybe ESG might be shaved if only I increase Moxes to full set. But this is all about speed vs. power, and I cannot keep the *cough*tempo*cough* elements while simultaneosuly increasing the number of blahblahblahgrindy tools like Jitte and stuff.
Btw, this tempo/value dichotomy reminds me of this brilliant post (http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=198696&sid=c43e24b863f9f3bcc2d734fddf5dce73#p1789447) on (mobile) warfare:


I think it may be also due to the idea of how you express M̶o̶b̶i̶l̶i̶t̶y̶ Tempo...

The tendency when new technology is introduced to military forces is not to make those forces move quicker, but rather to make the armies larger, more complex and carry more equipment. This has been a common thread throughout history which is why the average rate of advance of armies has hardly changed since Napoleon. The Allied forces in Normandy was a totally mechanised force but used that vehicle power to carry a higher rate of supply and equipment not to gain speed.


For now I'll try to make Jitte and similar stuff unimportant by the mere speed of my lock. But frankly, Legacy is a creature-centric format (at least compared with Vintage), so maybe I'll need some equipment. Otoh, this is pretty nombo with Phyr. Revoekr that pretty often revokes... Jitte.
One last idea is to shave StP and play 3/3 StP PtE split, then use a 2/2/2 Hierarch/ESG/Mox split to avoid clogged hands, slow hands, some of the card dis-a and crappy topdecks. NH would once again help in combat while being a manasource, Mox/ESG would offer some chance for turn1 broken stuff, and ESG alone would allow some nasty plays like that with Aven or some anti-Daze action. Otoh, this might be overly complex, and the simply 3/3 spit of Mox/ESG might be the very best.
I still dislike the mere 6 removal (esp. without any other way how to improve combat math) and I'd love to squeeze seventh in. And those Lieges are pretty solid, I'd also love to see one more. I think I'll cout Gaddock. With all the crazy dudes, combo shouldn't be THAT bad mu.
Also, Winter Orb might be another tool against Miracles.
And, I'd love some lifegain. With all my shock/pain/horizonlands, I'm losing life pretty fast.

[snorlaxcom]

Fleecemane is a quality dude that gets double pumped with lord and a good ability with mana up. Thalia and team will be more effective in combat with a set of noble hierarchs supplemented by pridemage. Nobles also have you reduce land count and avoid horrid topdecks in esg and mox along with t2 3drops at no loss in cards. With Nobles it may be possible to use two gavony township to buff team. Loxodon Smiter can provide some quality beef to the team and can be aggressively run into daze and good vs liliana. Double pump with lord too and t2 possible with noble if you dont have a hate bear. Pretty sweet vs decks with hymn. Ajani, Caller of the Pride can close the game out fast with exalted, while hate guys disrupt them enough.

I was going to suggest sylvan library, but no shuffle effects here. Deck should pack at least 2 karakas for the meta and saving your own dudes mid combat. Dunno how much mana you get out, but I like brimaz, king of oreskos with a lord out. He gets exalted triggers and then makes an attacking token. Great with karakas out on defense, too.

Vs combo, miracles, painter you can still make use of chalice at one in the sb.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Fleecemane is a quality dude that gets double pumped with lord and a good ability with mana up.
Problem is that the lion is exactly that, it's a nice creature for combat duty but it doesn't help with the lock plan.



Thalia and team will be more effective in combat with a set of noble hierarchs supplemented by pridemage. Nobles also have you reduce land count and avoid horrid topdecks in esg and mox along with t2 3drops at no loss in cards.
Yes, but I'll lose the fast Arbiters. Arbiter on turn2 might be too late, as they fetched, maybe even searched with SFM. Moreover, NH has all the troubles of 0/1 manadudes. But yeah, you might be right and I'll test that build. After all, there are some dead late draws now and it's far too many.



With Nobles it may be possible to use two gavony township to buff team.
Too cool. Also, this lad doesn't add colored mana.

Loxodon Smiter can provide some quality beef to the team and can be aggressively run into daze and good vs liliana. Double pump with lord too and t2 possible with noble if you dont have a hate bear. Pretty sweet vs decks with hymn. Ajani, Caller of the Pride can close the game out fast with exalted, while hate guys disrupt them enough.
I don't like Ajani in a deck with set of Thalias. Otoh, I really like Smiter and I thought about adding the card. Once I decided to cut the fast mana package, I found some slots.



I was going to suggest sylvan library, but no shuffle effects here. Deck should pack at least 2 karakas for the meta and saving your own dudes mid combat. Dunno how much mana you get out, but I like brimaz, king of oreskos with a lord out. He gets exalted triggers and then makes an attacking token. Great with karakas out on defense, too.

Vs combo, miracles, painter you can still make use of chalice at one in the sb.
I got no way how to search for Karakas, so I need to play two. I fear this will further disbalance my colored mana.
Brimaz seems good.
Chalice... well, I don't like it, esp. after I cut the fast mana. I think Thorn should do.

[Finn]

Mother runes does for creature disruption what Brainstorm does for library manipulation. At one mana it smooths out your board. You would be crazy not to use it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Mother runes does for creature disruption what Brainstorm does for library manipulation. At one mana it smooths out your board. You would be crazy not to use it.

Of course, but then I'll slowly move to Maverick. Which is a nice deck, no questions about, but I'm trying something else. Otoh, it's pretty obvious that hatebears.dec that allows its bears to get bolted is far from optimal. Also, the deck lacks some turn1 play, so...
Btw, I tried the list with Hierarchs an it was disappointing. The backbreaking turn1 plays were unavailable anymore, and playing Arbiter or Mindcensor after they already fetched land or searched for Batterskull was ridiculous. I'm back in the 3/3 Mox/ESG camp.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm abandoning the GW Hatedeck idea. Here are the reasons why:

- it's pretty powerful against lots of established decks, but others completely dodge the hate or got enough tools to fight it
- it completely depends on the opening hand and can't move anywhere else
- a card dis-A aspect is quite annoying, and there'snothing to be done about this, as the Mox/ESG are necessary for early locks, yet...
- ...the lock tends to completely crumble once amy piece is removed; e.g. removing one Arbiter means fetches become (semi)live again and now the opponent gets back to play... removes the other Arbiter
- the Legacy metagame is full of creature decks, thus an army of 2/x and x/2 creatures has hard time dealing with oppostion
- moreover, this means I faced many more removal than the Vintage counterpart did
- as a quite open format, Legacy is less predictable. While Einherjer's "Haters gonna hate" pile attacked all three pillars of Vintage without caring of anything else (because there's nothing els to care bout), I got troubles addressing the matchups due to unpredictability and rich variability of them. For every RUG/BUG/bUrg pilot I defeated by simly playing a turn1 arbiter, ther were games when my Affinity or Burn pilot simply did not care about my "lock". Same goes for any other creature, you'd be surprised how little does QPM achive in a Generic Delver Deck matchup.
- these all points were multiplied by the fact that the hate deck was pretty slow for a Legacy and left quite some time for the opponent to get back into play. With the exception of WLL, all other creatures are too small to finish the game (although some of them have built-in bonus, evasion or a potential for growth; QPM, Aven, Scooze) even in a pair... and they were Abyssed by any Goyf even if I had more than two of them.
- this led to a very strange combat phase situations/decisions, which was esp. hurtful because of no Jittes allowed. (Maybe I should have switched some of the PtE for equipments, but then again quick removal of DRS was one thing I really wished to be able of.) I finished lots of games by simply attacking turn afte turn into a more powerful creature(s), thus losing dude after dude, hoping to draw one after another on my next turns, until I'll win the attrition war and defeat the opponent with an unending stream of small dorks he won't be able to stop. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

And said this all... the deck wasn't exceptionally fun, too. While it is pretty funny to assemble a two- or three-pieces lock that prevents the opponent from playing a game of MtG, the nature of a 2/2.dec and the unpredictability of both my matchups and mulls/draws was too much too many.
I think that the original idea is worthy an exploration. But only in the original environment, Vintage. A Hatedeck built to attack the "chokepoints" of format might work. But only in a less wide format than Legacy.


I'll move to something else. For now I'm fascinated with some kind of Timmy's Minnions deck full of 6/6, 7/10 and similar dudes. I'm not exactly thinking about Beastcrackers (cause I dislike the relaince on Lotus Cobra, a creature that dies to any stronger fart), but lets say it's my starting point.

That, or maybe I'll simply go with Trolls and Plowshares supported by Armageddon.
Originality? It's overrated.