Commander 2014 thread

[Cire]

Seeing as Khans has its own thread and it only has one card, here's a thread for commander.

So far only a crappy planeswalker

Teferi, Temporal Archmage 4UU
Planeswalker - Teferi
+1: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library.
-1: Untap up to four target permanents.
-10: You get an emblem with "You may activate loyalty abilities of planeswalkers you control on any player's turn any time you could cast an instant."
Tefri, Temporal Archmage can be your commander.
Loyalty 5

[Vicar in a tutu]

Could this Planeswalker be useful in High Tide? Untap Islands with High Tide, untap Candles? (I honestly have no idea, I have never played High Tide.)

[Adryan]

Could this Planeswalker be useful in High Tide? Untap Islands with High Tide, untap Candles? (I honestly have no idea, I have never played High Tide.)

Really funny that Jace at 6 CMC would be better than this^^ I think it is completely fine to print a non blue PW that has the same powerlevel as Jace in Commander 2014. But i doubt they'll do it. Even Jace is too bad in Commander. At least that's what i heard, i don't play and like Commander.

[thecrav]

Seeing as Khans has its own thread and it only has one card, here's a thread for commander.

So far only a crappy planeswalker

Teferi, Temporal Archmage 4UU
Planeswalker - Teferi
+1: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library.
-1: Untap up to four target permanents.
-10: You get an emblem with "You may activate loyalty abilities of planeswalkers you control on any player's turn any time you could cast an instant."
Tefri, Temporal Archmage can be your commander.
Loyalty 5

I hadn't realized it at first, but that ult is really interesting in EDH. The planeswalkers rules say you can activate once per turn. If you're in, say, a 4 person game, your Jace could be at 13 the first time that you untap with him in play.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

maybe its odd but why is a 2 Mana planeswalker which makes Jace Brainstorm instantspeed
and gives you a significant resouce Advantage in Mana so ba? Jeah he is kin of slow not that this matters
in control Decks but when he hist the table he actually makes profit in the same turn because you can untap 4 of the used
lands with his ability
and then he helps with Libary manipulation and with the emlem you can cast all of the abilities one more time because you can cast them in the
opponents turn as well.

So if you just concider effiency and and expect longer Games were you get to 6 Mana regularly he should be pretty good when your resoucres
like counter or removal get scarer every turn.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[Cire]

Because you need him to survive 5 rounds around the table before the ultimate and before you can go bonkers with other plansewalkers? Till then . . . it's just expensive card draw.

[Meekrab]

Could this Planeswalker be useful in High Tide? Untap Islands with High Tide, untap Candles? (I honestly have no idea, I have never played High Tide.)
I don't think High Tide wants to spend six mana for a Turnabout.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I don't think High Tide wants to spend six mana for a Turnabout.
Yeah, I buy that. Hopefully at least one of the five new planeswalkers in Commander 2014 will be playable in legacy (each of the five 2014 Commander decks will have a new planeswalker as general, according to Maro).

[Offler]

Dont think of him as a Turnabout. Think of him as Palinchron...

[Vicar in a tutu]

Dont think of him as a Turnabout. Think of him as Palinchron...
I can envision Teferi untapping Mana Vault, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, etc quite often in EDH.

[Offler]

Astral Cornucopia
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Gilded lotus
Teferi's isle

High Tide
Extraplanar Lens
Gauntlet of power
Caged sun

Rings of Brighthearth


i was thinking of bouncing him, but... if you can sacrifice a permanent, you can cast him from command zone with extra 2 mana per each cycle... but if the combo can produce 3 extra mana per cycle... :)

Edit
I would not be surprised if he will be banned as a commander after all :)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hello,

maybe its odd but why is a 2 Mana planeswalker which makes Jace Brainstorm instantspeed
and gives you a significant resouce Advantage in Mana so ba? Jeah he is kin of slow not that this matters
in control Decks but when he hist the table he actually makes profit in the same turn because you can untap 4 of the used
lands with his ability
and then he helps with Libary manipulation and with the emlem you can cast all of the abilities one more time because you can cast them in the
opponents turn as well.

So if you just concider effiency and and expect longer Games were you get to 6 Mana regularly he should be pretty good when your resoucres
like counter or removal get scarer every turn.

Best Regards Teveshszat

Because he costs six, not two.

Best regards, IBA

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Dont think of him as a Turnabout. Think of him as Palinchron...

That seems considerably less accurate.

[Darkenslight]

That seems considerably less accurate.

Indeed. His -1 would read, "Untap X target Candelabra of Tawnos, then, if X is less than four, untap 4-X lands."

[Vicar in a tutu]

Indeed. His -1 would read, "Untap X target Candelabra of Tawnos, then, if X is less than four, untap 4-X lands."
How about in 12-post? Untapping Cloudpost along with Candelabra sounds pretty good.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It costs the same as Prime Time and can't protect itself so probably not.

Not a lot of six cc cards get played in Legacy, and a card whose main functional utility is an effect that has no meaning in Legacy seems not the best candidate.

[Teveshszat]

Moin,


Infamous Bear Assasin
Because he costs six, not two.

When does this Card costs 6 mana? I mean you cast it you untap 4 Lands and what is left are 2 tapped Mana so he actually
costs 2 Mana when casted.
Yes you can Counter him but actually this count for other heavy investment cards likke entreat,Jace,Natural Order etc too so
this is a argument against him.
His ultimate is a Game breaker with himself on its own and rediculus with Jace on the field and in addtion to that he
is stupid strong with Karakas and provides a Preordain Option.
He can´t protect himself yes but this should not a problem for a well builded control deck.

I don´t think you should play him 3 or 4 times but 1 or 2 copies of him seeming very soild
to test in decks which have enough inteactions with him or want libary manipulation in
a long term.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[Megadeus]

If any planeswalker is ultimating, it should be game winning. Why is that a new concept?

[Dice_Box]

The outlay on the card is six mana, untapping is a minus ability. In effect, you get nothing but diminishing returns if you are planning to use him like that.

[Dice_Box]

If any planeswalker is ultimating, it should be game winning. Why is that a new concept?

I think with these guys, it need not be that way. You can cast them over and over, slowly pushing them up and gaining advances as you do. I am willing to bet none of the Commander Zone legal Planeswalkers will have a game ending ability.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Moin,



When does this Card costs 6 mana? I mean you cast it you untap 4 Lands and what is left are 2 tapped Mana so he actually
costs 2 Mana when casted.
Yes you can Counter him but actually this count for other heavy investment cards likke entreat,Jace,Natural Order etc too so
this is a argument against him.
His ultimate is a Game breaker with himself on its own and rediculus with Jace on the field and in addtion to that he
is stupid strong with Karakas and provides a Preordain Option.
He can´t protect himself yes but this should not a problem for a well builded control deck.

I don´t think you should play him 3 or 4 times but 1 or 2 copies of him seeming very soild
to test in decks which have enough inteactions with him or want libary manipulation in
a long term.

Best Regards Teveshszat

Cool, and then you can play Great Whale to protect him, because a 0 mana 5/5? So good sign me up.

And it has protection from Abrupt Decay, the gift that keeps on giving.

[Bertrand Hustle]

The card is garbage.

Yours truly,

Bertrand Hustle

[menace13]

I like it. Seems fun in a very constricting card to build around kind of way.

Sincerely, Menace13

[joven]

I think using planeswalkers as commanders is a bad idea.

[Megadeus]

Why? They certainly aren't OP in any way, and most of them restrict you to 1 or 2 colors.

[Erdvermampfa]

Wizards proceeds to undermine the game's Basics as if Miracles, Delver and TNN/Judgement weren't enough.

[rufus]

Seeing as Khans has its own thread and it only has one card, here's a thread for commander.
...
-10: You get an emblem with "You may activate loyalty abilities of planeswalkers you control on any player's turn any time you could cast an instant."
Tefri, Temporal Archmage can be your commander.
Loyalty 5

At that cost, it seems like the ultimate should eliminate the once-per-turn restriction too.


I don't think High Tide wants to spend six mana for a Turnabout.
It's not viable - as you write, there are better cards to cast at that cost - but the mix and match aspect is interesting. He doesn't seem so terrible if you untap a Candelabra of Tawnos, a Fatestitcher and two Islands.

... another bad card Stasis decks.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wizards proceeds to undermine the game's Basics as if Miracles, Delver and TNN/Judgement weren't enough.

Yep, exactly my thoughts. I really dislike all these extremely inelegant cards.

[TsumiBand]

Why? They certainly aren't OP in any way, and most of them restrict you to 1 or 2 colors.

I said as much (in so many disjointed words) in my post in the EDH forum, but basically it boils down to one of those rules tweaks that makes you go "wtf why". Power level is not a concern, but that isn't the single-most relevant factor in every conversation about the impact of new Magic cards or rules.

It's just an odd exception to a fundamental rule of the format, and so it looks weird and tacked on (as if the EDH rules aren't precisely that; an abstraction layer on top of regular Magic the Gathering. that doesn't invite or excuse extra complexity just to sell product). For years the rule was "you can build your deck around any Legendary Creature", and it still is - only now one has to append "oh and these five special Planeswalkers" to the end of that. There are cards such as Opal Palace that are clearly setup with the idea that commanders are always creatures - when else does a +1/+1 counter have applications except with creatures? - so it's pretty clear the card was made with the assumption that commanders would always be creatures. It isn't often that they intentionally allow for such a 'useless' interaction as putting +1/+1 counters on a permanent that doesn't typically care if it has them.

I mean really given the less playable nature of walkers in EDH (not unplayable, just LESS playable), it may just be a token gesture at best and the commanders themselves will impact the game very little. So I still say, wtf why? It's flavorful but that's about it; it renders rules about commander damage non-applicable for exactly 5 cards (so far) and just makes them a weird cycle of cards that only appear to exist to sell some pre-cons.

That said, the community response seems to be surprisingly positive/neutral on this, and so I will probably take my own advice and try my damnedest to reserve final judgment until the cards are actually on the table.

[FTW]

When does this Card costs 6 mana? I mean you cast it you untap 4 Lands and what is left are 2 tapped Mana so he actually
costs 2 Mana when casted.
Best Regards Teveshszat

A creature that costs 8cc and has the ability "when this ETB, add 8 to your mana pool" (with suitable anti-reanimation clauses) is unplayable in Legacy even though it costs "0 mana". The problem is that generating that much mana in the first place is too much for Legacy to handle. The net cost is irrelevant if the initial investment is too high.

This is the reason average people don't buy million dollar mansions. Sure, you can argue that in 10 years you can flip it for 2 million and make 1 mil profit. In theory it seems like pure profit, but most people can't afford the 1 mil house in the first place so the point is moot.

In Commander though, this card has solid combo potential. I would run it in Bryant's Pile of Broken or similar 100-card pitch long builds (although maybe a tight list would still find 6cc too much even if it untaps Mana Vault and Tolarian Academy). In 5cc superfriends EDH, you can untap Contagion Engine and mana sources and quadruple proliferate all your planeswalkers each turn. Seems good.

[rufus]

...
It's just an odd exception to a fundamental rule of the format, and so it looks weird and tacked on (as if the EDH rules aren't precisely that; an abstraction layer on top of regular Magic the Gathering. that doesn't invite or excuse extra complexity just to sell product). For years the rule was "you can build your deck around any Legendary Creature", and it still is - only now one has to append "oh and these five special Planeswalkers" to the end of that....

There is also a commander ban list, so it's not *that* silly. I wonder if it would be cleaner for them to have templated those cards as creatures. Something like:



~
Legendary Creature
~ is a "planeswalker - ~" unless it's in the commander zone.
...

[Lemnear]

The point is that they created some totally unnecessary exceptions for the Commander rules.

What's next after they broke the basic rule of Legendary creatures as your Commander? Commanders which allow to reduce the number of cards you have to play down to 80? Cards which have a special phrase written on them that you can play them in multiples and ignore the one-off-rule?

[rufus]

... Cards which have a special phrase written on them that you can play them in multiples and ignore the one-off-rule?

Like the Brothers Yamazaki?

[TsumiBand]

Yeah I'm not sure the slippery slope argument is super compelling right meow

[Megadeus]

I don't see the big deal. Teferi doesn't even seem that good as a commander and I'm sure overall it won't affect things that greatly. Magic players really do make a big deal out of nothing. I honestly have always thought walkers should be legal as commanders.

[Bertrand Hustle]

The point is that they created some totally unnecessary exceptions for the Commander rules.

What's next after they broke the basic rule of Legendary creatures as your Commander? Commanders which allow to reduce the number of cards you have to play down to 80? Cards which have a special phrase written on them that you can play them in multiples and ignore the one-off-rule?
I think the next point worth examining is cards created for a casual format being allowed in competitive formats with no testing considerations made whatsoever. This avoids the slippery slope fallacy but addresses what you are getting at. The lack of Eternal format testing in R&D is hurting those formats. This extends beyond EDH products as well, just look at Delver of Secrets

[Tylert]

Yes this planeswalker breaks the basic rules of the commander format.
And so what?
Every card does it in some way...
It's a new thing ok. As long as its power level is not too high and dumb i'm fine with it.
Don't forget that it cannot attack for 21 damage. so although it's an harder to deal with general (although creatures can't get rid of it even if you can't block with it), it has a downside compared to other generals. Mono-U decks tend either to win through general damage or combo...

Well. the card is not bonkers if used as a general anyway. In a planeswalker deck, not as a general, I find it better. But there is probably more broken things to play for 6 mana (Consecrated sphinx comes to my mind...).

[TsumiBand]

I like how people keep saying it's fine because it isn't broken, even though most people that dislike the idea do so because it's just not very well executed. It's like arguing your way out of a speeding ticket by saying "it's not like I'm wearing oven mitts, officer."

[TsumiBand]

Maybe it is just adding to my general disdain for planeswalkers, on the basis that they are hands-down the kludgiest aspect of Magic. They are loaded with weird rules just to make them work with regular Magic, and not always like you'd expect. So this is just another weird rule; that it lives on the card as a reminder doesn't amend the rest of the goofiness surrounding them. They are horses-by-committee to start with, I guess I'm not sure why this makes anything about them better.

That said, the more I think about it the less annoying it actually is. And hell, I've had a bunch of dumb cards sitting in wait for me to build something mono-Black anyway, so here's hoping whoever the Black walker is either does not suck or is easily swapped.

[Megadeus]

Maybe it is just adding to my general disdain for planeswalkers, on the basis that they are hands-down the kludgiest aspect of Magic. They are loaded with weird rules just to make them work with regular Magic, and not always like you'd expect. So this is just another weird rule; that it lives on the card as a reminder doesn't amend the rest of the goofiness surrounding them. They are horses-by-committee to start with, I guess I'm not sure why this makes anything about them better.

That said, the more I think about it the less annoying it actually is. And hell, I've had a bunch of dumb cards sitting in wait for me to build something mono-Black anyway, so here's hoping whoever the Black walker is either does not suck or is easily swapped.

I do agree that is seems very forced, especially since the card explicitly say's "Can be used as a commander". I don't really mind walkers though. And like I said, I have always thought it would makes sense to allow them to be generals, so maybe that is why I don't hate these new ones

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I agree that adding non-legendary creatures to the command zone is a shit idea to start with. What's next, a Legendary Land that functions as your commander? Maybe an Epic Sorcery?

[Lord Seth]

Wizards proceeds to undermine the game's Basics as if Miracles, Delver and TNN/Judgement weren't enough.Er, how do Miracles or Council's Judgment violate any basics of the game? Delver and True-Name Nemesis I know people complain about being allegedly out of color, but I can't see how Miracles or Judgment in any way undermine the basics of the game any more than any keyword ability does.

And I don't see how the Teferi is an undermining of the basics of the game either. It's an exception to the rules for a very particular format; hardly a basic of the game itself.

Personally I have no opinion on the Teferi as I don't play Commander and don't know the format enough to render any kind of opinion, but I don't get this "undermine the game's basics" claim.

[menace13]

how Miracles or Judgment in any way undermine the basics of the game any more than any keyword ability does.
Delver is like Nacatl, except better in every way. Keyword Awesome aside. Evasion. Cannot lose its flipped stats like Nacatl can/ Which is much more synergistic in its tempo shells than the cat is in aggro shells.

TNN is just derp. Maro's response to how to deal with it in 1v1 games was "other players" If you dont feel trolled, then youre too dumb to get it. SorryImNotSorry

Miracles are to spells what Show and Tell is to permanents. One mana spells that otherwise cost 3WW. The basic rules violated here are the effect to mana cost ratio, clearly.

Judgment is as sloppy a design as it gets. I have to guess what my opponent is going to name so I don't get 2 for 1'd? What? I hope who ever designed this suffers a thousand paper cuts every time he goes to pick up a magic card.

I'm also going to preemptively respond for many of you, saving many people the time. "So, what? Lots of spells already do that bro! Play Standard with the kids, dude"

There, done.

YW

[Megadeus]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Like the Brothers Yamazaki?
You can play two Brothers in one commander deck? :eyebrow:



I don't see the big deal. Teferi doesn't even seem that good as a commander and I'm sure overall it won't affect things that greatly. Magic players really do make a big deal out of nothing. I honestly have always thought walkers should be legal as commanders.
You seem to miss the points someof us made.
I dislike Teferi (and PWs in general), becasue they're glued into the game, there's a lot of rules garbage around them, and they moved the game's flavour from "While we fought, the il surrendered" to "My boobs, I got them" of Liliana the Liliana of Boobs.



I think the next point worth examining is cards created for a casual format being allowed in competitive formats with no testing considerations made whatsoever. This avoids the slippery slope fallacy but addresses what you are getting at. The lack of Eternal format testing in R&D is hurting those formats. This extends beyond EDH products as well, just look at Delver of Secrets
Yep. I loved the times when R&D didn't invent one Balduvian Shaman and Ice Cauldron after another.



Yes this planeswalker breaks the basic rules of the commander format.
And so what?
Every card does it in some way...

There's a difference between how the card does thing. On the very basic, each card breaks the rules. Yet there's a difference between Giant Spider and Ice Cauldron 2.0.




TNN is just derp. Maro's response to how to deal with it in 1v1 games was "other players"
Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot... :laugh:

[menace13]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?
No. I thought it works with some convoluted naming process. Reading the card doesnt seem intuitive to me. I read it as vote for a card caster doesnt control. So if I have 2 permanents out and you cast Judgment. And I vote for a card that you didnt vote for I lose both? Or is my voting done after I hear your vote?



Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot... :laugh:
Sorry, he has like 9k tweets. I cant dig through that. It's something I remember from one of the TNN threads here. WHich would also be like searching through 9k tweets.

[Meekrab]

Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot... :laugh:
The actual quote is less damning and basically "it was designed for Commander formats."


tehpoker said: Why did you make True-Name Nemesis? For people like me who are legitimately interested in the Grixis deck to actually play Commander with it, the deck is impossible to get.

The card was made to be a cool multiplayer card. Design doesn’t even set power level so we had no idea that it was going to end up playable in Legacy.

I mean... if it was a 2/1 for UU or something it wouldn't really even be on the radar. "Development" (playtesting) just totally punted the scale on which it operates.

[TheArchitect]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?

Shhhh don't tell let him know he's doing it wrong. People keep giving me free 2-for-1's because they don't RTFC.

[menace13]

Shhhh don't tell let him know he's doing it wrong. People keep giving me free 2-for-1's because they don't RTFC.
Which is exactly why the card is sloppily designed. RTFC is a bit different from comprehending the fucking card. If it wasn't so retarded in the first place it might be easier to discern. The entire voting thing is dumb. It's not really a vote in 1v1. it's agreeing with your opponent's choice. It also targets untargetable cards. Seriously flawed.

[Sylphnir]

You can play two Brothers in one commander deck? :eyebrow:
You can play an unlimited amount of Relentless Rats and/or Shadowborn Apostle though.

[Lord Seth]

Miracles are to spells what Show and Tell is to permanents. One mana spells that otherwise cost 3WW. The basic rules violated here are the effect to mana cost ratio, clearly.Cards that are cheaper to cast when you fulfill certain requirements are absolutely nothing new and have been part of the game for a long time. There is no basic being violated here.

The weird thing is, you note this as a possible counter-argument... but then offer no response whatsoever to the counterargument.


The actual quote is less damning and basically "it was designed for Commander formats."



I mean... if it was a 2/1 for UU or something it wouldn't really even be on the radar. "Development" (playtesting) just totally punted the scale on which it operates.Someone in the comments there had a very good point: If True-Name Nemesis was meant to be a cool multiplayer card (as was stated), why does it get weaker in multiplayer?

For whatever it's worth, Mark Rosewater did (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/81725744447/if-you-dont-like-commander-eesha-because-protection) say he didn't like the uninteractive nature of True-Name Nemesis. Of course, he waited like half a year after its release date to say that, so at that point maybe he was just trying not to fan the flames.

[menace13]

Cards that are cheaper to cast when you fulfill certain requirements are absolutely nothing new and have been part of the game for a long time. There is no basic being violated here.

The weird thing is, you note this as a possible counter-argument... but then offer no response whatsoever to the counterargument.

Most of those cards are flimsy, and even when the requirement is fulfilled aren't near the level of Terminus. FoW or Daze are the only ones that come to mind. Misstep and Gush are banned. Or Madness mechanic? I'm not sure you're making any counter argument that isn't skirting around the edges.

[Lemnear]

Do you like, understand how councils judgement works?

Tbh, right after it's intoduction in MTGO you had to choose a permanent on the field without knowing for which your opponent voted. It was a guaranteed 1-for-2 in the Cj casters favor.

@ Walkers as Commanders
The point made with the Brothers Y., Relentless Rats or the Apostle is clear. Those cards break basic rules of the game (Legend Rule, 4-of-the-same-cards-max, etc.) for the matter of being cool, but in the case of the Commander rules, which are already sketchy, WotC added another Layer of rulings and exceptions just for 5 cards with the next Commander product which is plain hilarious. Why not allow Walkers in general to make a point for the whole changes? Because of Jace & Liliana ruling over the 100 card stacks in that case?

Alternate mana costs are a core principle of the game and their reduced costs are tied to the alternate cost conditions and don't violate the game rules therefore. It's not that WotC had to rewrite the game rules just because of FoW. Fact is, that the one-liner on teferi is not enough to make him work within the games rules like FoW, Terminus, Phyrexian mana, Relentless Rats would. For teferi and friends they will likely need to flip over existing Commander rules like Commander damage, added casting costs and particular wording ... just for 5 cards

[NeZ]

The actual quote is less damning and basically "it was designed for Commander formats."
Which is a joke itself, because EDH clearly proved him wrong. I've yet to see a single TNN in a multiplayer EDH (the way EDH is meant to be played, f the french), because it's just a stupid 3/1 blocker with protection against one opponent. The fact that it dies to literally every sweeper makes TNN quite unplayable in EDH. Okay, maybe except in some tribal merfolk deck... but even there exist better options, I'm sure.


I mean... if it was a 2/1 for UU or something it wouldn't really even be on the radar. "Development" (playtesting) just totally punted the scale on which it operates.
TNN shouldn't exist. It's simply bad design. It's "for Commander", but it's mostly played in Legacy.


@ Walkers as Commanders
The point made with the Brothers Y., Relentless Rats or the Apostle is clear. Those cards break basic rules of the game (Legend Rule, 4-of-the-same-cards-max, etc.) for the matter of being cool, but in the case of the Commander rules, which are already sketchy, WotC added another Layer of rulings and exceptions just for 5 cards with the next Commander product which is plain hilarious. Why not allow Walkers in general to make a point for the whole changes? Because of Jace & Liliana ruling over the 100 card stacks in that case?
EDH has 99 card stacks, but other than that, you know why it's called EDH and there is the 21 commander damage rule? Elder Dragons. Highlander deck rules. 3 x 7 = 21. Three attacks and you're dead. But allowing other legends helped immensely pushing the format toward it's popularity it has today.

Having some Jace or Liliana as your commander shifts away the focus of EDH from some kind of mighty general ruling over your deck to some whiney sparkly pal / gal waving his hand in an odd manner. Yes, I'm overacting, but I kind of hate the stuff that could follow by softening the basic rules of EDH (more below).


Alternate mana costs are a core principle of the game and their reduced costs are tied to the alternate cost conditions and don't violate the game rules therefore. It's not that WotC had to rewrite the game rules just because of FoW. Fact is, that the one-liner on teferi is not enough to make him work within the games rules like FoW, Terminus, Phyrexian mana, Relentless Rats would. For teferi and friends they will likely need to flip over existing Commander rules like Commander damage, added casting costs and particular wording ... just for 5 cards
You're right. They won't change these rules. They simply can't. EDH is 99+1 cards, 21 damage. Or is it?

Because now all these stupid exceptions like Opal Palace, Derevi, Oloro, Prossh, etc. exist, simply to mess with the format or help to sell more cards. Now these planeswalker-commanders, which create exceptions to an exception (Opal Palace!).

The point MaRo or some other jerk comes up with a card changing the 21 rule, the 99 rule or the highlander rule, I'll think about quitting EDH altogether.

And to help understand my point... I only play EDH and EDH only. I now own 12 decks with no color-combination twice. Magic is equal to EDH for me. My whole collection is based on EDH. Modern is intriguing too (because of the player-base here in Munich), but I probably stick with EDH only.

I'm am not angry that there will be now 5 planeswalkers that can be your commander. In fact I'm looking forward to the green one (I still have no mono-green deck because green ramp is a boring concept in EDH imho) but I hate WotC's constant messing around with the basic design of a format they didn't even design in the first place.

[menace13]

Link, please, I need to read some more of that idiot... :laugh:
Actually dug up the quotes.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26900-SCD-True-Name-Nemesis&p=767626&viewfull=1#post767626

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26900-SCD-True-Name-Nemesis&p=767955&viewfull=1#post767955

While not designed for eternal formats, development pushed it out as one. They like to do so with commander sets.
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/252

[lyracian]

Wow; three pages on one card! I liked last years commands because they made a point of having a command zone, gaining life or milling X cards where X is the total casting cost. As a concept these commanders do not seem to add anything worthwhile to the game so I think they are wasted design space. Without some complex interaction they do not let you kill your opponent with commander damage. Product setting means they are not included in the Modern format and I cannot see any of them being good enough for Legacy due to being designed as commanders. Overall I just do not care about them being shoe-horned into the command zone.


Most of those cards are flimsy, and even when the requirement is fulfilled aren't near the level of Terminus. FoW or Daze are the only ones that come to mind. Misstep and Gush are banned. Or Madness mechanic? I'm not sure you're making any counter argument that isn't skirting around the edges.
Is it the concept of alternative costs or the effect of Terminus that you dislike? or just the ease it can be cast with Top? A lot of my friends complained about FoW when it came out because they thought it was too powerful. After Force and friends we had great cards like "Natural Order" and "Fireblast" in Visions. Personally I see Miracles as just another iteration of alternative costs.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Without some complex interaction they do not let you kill your opponent with commander damage.
How exactly does one kill an opponent with Commander damage using Norin the Wary?
Or Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant?

The inability to deal commander damage certainly isn't new or innovative, even though people keep saying it is.


They're releasing 5 relatively harmless (based on the one we've seen so far) planeswalkers with an unusual line of text that opens up design space. If it works, we'll see more. If not, there will be a total of 5 exceptions to the rule. Big. Whoop.

[NeZ]

How exactly does one kill an opponent with Commander damage using Norin the Wary?
Or Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant?
Rune-Tail? How about attacking with him 11 times, or pumping him? Bad example, sorry.

Norin? You'll need a blue player to help so he can attack, but: Stifle. Trickbind. Voidslime.

EDIT: Dang it! Of course Stifle triggers Norin too! And I even have a Norin quote in my sig. I'm sorry. :rolleyes:

Same goes for Szadek, Lord of Secrets. Stifle-ing him could be a real blowout.


The inability to deal commander damage certainly isn't new or innovative, even though people keep saying it is.
Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the only legend where a 21-kill is even theoretically impossible, because there's no way to actually cast him. And that's one single card.

But I believe we're going to see an Entomb for your commander zone soon enough... :confused:


They're releasing 5 relatively harmless (based on the one we've seen so far) planeswalkers with an unusual line of text that opens up design space. If it works, we'll see more. If not, there will be a total of 5 exceptions to the rule. Big. Whoop.
Do you even play EDH? There's a lot design space left within EDH. But they better not touch the rules anymore.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Rune-Tail? How about attacking with him 11 times, or pumping him? Bad example, sorry.

Norin? You'll need a blue player to help so he can attack, but: Stifle. Trickbind. Voidslime.
Same goes for Szadek, Lord of Secrets. Stifle-ing him could be a real blowout.


Haakon, Stromgald Scourge is the only legend where a 21-kill is even theoretically impossible, because there's no way to actually cast him. And that's one single card.

But I believe we're going to see an Entomb for your commander zone soon enough... :confused:


Do you even play EDH? There's a lot design space left within EDH. But they better not touch the rules anymore.
It is a shame that post was serious because it is laughably stupid. Are you certain YOU've played EDH?

Edit: I suppose I should explain why that was ridiculous since it was a serious post...
Lets say Norin is in a pod with a blue opponent. And lets say that the blue opponent WANTS to let Norin connect for lols. And lets say that the blue opponent has access to 11 Stifle effects with Isochron Scepter...

Norin attacks. An exile trigger goes on the stack.
Blue opponent Stifle's the trigger!
By casting Stifle, another exile trigger goes on the stack.
Then Norin runs away...

Have you ever seen someone use a Rune-Tail deck? Guess what happens on turn 3 EVERY GAME? Can you guess? I bet you can!

My point was not that obscure corner cases exist that allow for anything. My point was that EDH decks have been built to great success with generals who are not intended to deal 21 damage.

[Matsaya]

norin + stifle : how hilarious !

[kirkusjones]

norin + stifle : how hilarious !

This is why you always choose to exile him to the command zone as a replacement effect.

[Matsaya]

I know.
I was answering to :



How exactly does one kill an opponent with Commander damage using Norin the Wary?
Norin? You'll need a blue player to help so he can attack, but: Stifle. Trickbind. Voidslime.

[Lord Seth]

Most of those cards are flimsy, and even when the requirement is fulfilled aren't near the level of Terminus. FoW or Daze are the only ones that come to mind. Misstep and Gush are banned. Or Madness mechanic? I'm not sure you're making any counter argument that isn't skirting around the edges.It's odd you still seem to be arguing when you basically just conceded the point by mentioning cards that you can cast for cheaper if you fulfill certain circumstances. And the "level" is irrelevant; your complaint that the ability to cast a card for a cheaper cost by itself is a violation of the basics for some reason, even though you just admitted there have been tons of cards that do exactly that (additional examples: Affinity, Prowl, Convoke, Delve, the Avatar cycle, Ghoultree, Karador Ghost Chieftain, Khalni Hydra, Marshmist Tyrant, Nemesis of Mortals, Not of This World, Draco). If you think Terminus is too powerful, that's a completely separate argument, and actually not really even that related to the Miracle mechanic.

[lyracian]

How exactly does one kill an opponent with Commander damage using Norin the Wary?
Or Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant?The inability to deal commander damage certainly isn't new or innovative, even though people keep saying it is.

You can have more than one relentless rats it does not mean they should make it one of the design concepts for new EDH cards. I do not care if there are few random cards that do not fit with the general game play; Personally I hardly ever attack with Oloro it does not mean I can not do so though. My point is about the overall design of Command-Walker. Last years Commanders interacted with the Command Zone. This years offering do not interact with the command zone and by not being creatures they remove even more interaction from the game. In my opinion that makes them a poor design for games of EDH.

[Aggro_zombies]

As I've said elsewhere, I don't get all the hate for a planeswalker commander.

First, players have been house-ruling planeswalkers as commanders for years. I myself have played in a group that allowed both planeswalkers and Nephilim as commanders and neither of those were anywhere close to as broken or oppressive as the top-tier legendaries. I would argue that there have been more players asking for planeswalkers as commanders than there were players asking for commanders to do something from the command zone prior to the 2013 Commander product. In that sense, this just represents giving the people what they want, which is totally fine as far as casual products are concerned as long as it doesn't create power-level nightmares for competitive players. Teferi seems safe in that regard, at least.

Second, it makes more sense than its opponents seem to want to admit. Planeswalkers in-game are now flesh-and-blood spellcasters who are just slightly more powerful than the named characters that end up on Legendary Creature cards due to the former's ability to planeswalk. If there's any card type that made sense as an exception to the rules defining choice of generals, it's the planeswalker card type. Hell, both Teferi and Venser have legendary creature versions that are commander-eligible.

Finally, planeswalkers are not very high on the power curve of things you can do in EDH. If you're using the French list and dueling a lot or if you're playing Vintage Lite using the main list, planeswalkers will likely be too slow, too long-game, and not immediately impactful enough to be playable as commanders in your metagame. If you're in the hypothetical Midrange Casual Paradise towards which the main banned list is geared, there will likely be enough creatures lying around to keep planeswalkers from ultimating easily unless you cheat (Doubling Season, extra turns) or build the world's most defensive do-nothing deck. It's only if your metagame is super inbred and consists mostly of creatureless control decks that these new planeswalkers could pose an issue, but the fact that they'll limit you to one color puts an upper limit on how oppressive they can be. Traditionally, the two best colors for mono-colored control decks in EDH have been blue and black, the former because of stack interactions and the latter because it's a jack-of-all-trades with board control, library manipulation, recursion, and the ability to deal with non-permanents via discard. Teferi provides you with a mostly-better Phyrexian arena but his ultimate doesn't do a whole lot in a mono-colored deck, especially considering the lion's share of blue planeswalkers all have the same 'Jace' subtype.

So yeah, I'm not feeling the hate, but then I guess I don't want to continue to play the same unchanging game forever and ever.

[menace13]

It's odd you still seem to be arguing when you basically just conceded the point by mentioning cards that you can cast for cheaper if you fulfill certain circumstances. And the "level" is irrelevant; your complaint that the ability to cast a card for a cheaper cost by itself is a violation of the basics for some reason, even though you just admitted there have been tons of cards that do exactly that (additional examples: Affinity, Prowl, Convoke, Delve, the Avatar cycle, Ghoultree, Karador Ghost Chieftain, Khalni Hydra, Marshmist Tyrant, Nemesis of Mortals, Not of This World, Draco). If you think Terminus is too powerful, that's a completely separate argument, and actually not really even that related to the Miracle mechanic.

Yes, you named a bunch of flimsy cards. That all have much more narrow requirements to fulfill in order to function. This was already addressed by me in my last post. I named the widely played ones as an exception because they are powerful. Note all those cards named require a card or two to be used up. Either a land in play or card in hand, or something that required more resources. Miracles mechanic doesnt.

It is impossible to have a discussion on what cards do without bringing up how powerful they are.

The discussion wasnt that there were never free spells. the topic is how powerful and badly designed those free spells are. How much of the basic premise of mana cost to effect ratio they violated.

Or to put it simpler and be as disingenuous as you are being. You could simply swap out Terminus for Massacres and Submerges? Foil/Thwart for foWs. And miracles would be fine, right?

Obviously all cards break the rules in some way. It's how far they go that is the topic. Not that the mechanic existed before. Or that there are other cards that do something similar. The power creep and how much of the basics of the game they break is what makes them good.

[TsumiBand]

You're really stretching the concept of "breaking the rules" if you're applying it to any given card that has text on it beyond power and toughness. It's like...

Look at it this way -- Aven Mindcensor. It has flying, which changes the way *that creature* behaves during combat; it's an internal change, and it isn't really altering the rules of "the game". Meanwhile, its ability saying that opponents only get to search the top 4 cards of a library instead of the whole thing, now that is a change to the rules of the game; it directly affects the way the game is executed.

It's really easy to just throw hyperbole around (I do it all the fucken time) and I know that everything is a Time Walk, but not every thing is a Time Walk, right? It's the same with 'breaking the rules' of the game, and in spite of my above statement I'm not horribly interested in rabbit holing a discussion about where the actual line in the sand is; I knows it when I sees it, I guess. :shrug:

[Lt. Quattro]

I wonder what flavor the next blue card from commander will come in. Good (Flusterstorm) or Busted (True-Name Nemesis).

Maybe its red's time to shine right guys?

:cry:

[Aggro_zombies]

I wonder what flavor the next blue card from commander will come in. Good (Flusterstorm) or Busted (True-Name Nemesis).

Maybe its red's time to shine right guys?

:cry:
Two-mana Chaos Warp for instants and sorceries. Turn their Force of Will into a Ponder!

Actually, that sounds less awesome than it seemed in my head.

[TsumiBand]

Two-mana Chaos Warp for instants and sorceries. Turn their Force of Will into a Ponder!

Actually, that sounds less awesome than it seemed in my head.
Ha, Chaos Warp for spells would be some kind of amazing Red counter.

"Shuffle target spell into its owner's library. They reveal the top card - if it shares a type, cast it without paying its cost. If not, BONED"

Lol when they hit an X spell. "GSZ aw fuk yoo man i quit"

I want that spell pretty bad now. Heck of a way to pwn the commander too

[rufus]

Two-mana Chaos Warp for instants and sorceries. Turn their Force of Will into a Ponder!

Actually, that sounds less awesome than it seemed in my head.

Like Spellshift? It it were opponent-only, or it shuffled before revealing it could be for :r:.

[Lord Seth]

Yes, you named a bunch of flimsy cards.Their "flimsiness" is irrelevant. Your complaint was that the Miracles mechanic violated some basic rule of the game that you have never demonstrated actually exists. Being able to make cards cost less when you fulfill the right circumstances has been around for a long time.

If you wish to complain that you think Terminus is too powerful, that is one thing (though if it is too powerful, it's by virtue of being too powerful, not breaking any basic rule of the game, unless you think the somewhat abstract idea of "too powerful" is indeed violating a basic rule). But you are complaining about the Miracle mechanic itself, and have not made any real explanation as to how it violates basics of the game outside of pointing to one card with Miracle you consider to be too good.


That all have much more narrow requirements to fulfill in order to function. This was already addressed by me in my last post. I named the widely played ones as an exception because they are powerful. Note all those cards named require a card or two to be used up. Either a land in play or card in hand, or something that required more resources. Miracles mechanic doesnt.

It is impossible to have a discussion on what cards do without bringing up how powerful they are.You claim Force of Will has more narrow requirements. Is that why it sees way, way more play than Terminus? Force of Will requires you play Blue. Terminus requires you actively build your deck around it to ensure you have a real shot at being able to have it on top of your library when you need it. That seems like considerably more narrow requirements to me. Additionally, to be able to reliably use Terminus, you must have one of your deck-stacking cards, whereas Force of Will just requires a Blue card.

What is interesting is you appear to be ignoring something: You complain a lot about the mana costs, but their mana costs actually reflect their extra abilities. To compensate for their ability to be cast for free, Force of Will and Daze cost more than their normal counterparts (Counterspell and Force Spike). Similarly, hard casting a Terminus costs more mana than Hallowed Burial because of the extra ability Terminus has of being far cheaper if you topdeck it.

Though I would put the "blame" (if there is any) not on Terminus, but on Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Those are powerful cards with or without Terminus, particularly Brainstorm. On the other hand, Terminus is not particularly impressive without them. It's why it sees basically zero play in Modern.


The discussion wasnt that there were never free spells. the topic is how powerful and badly designed those free spells are. How much of the basic premise of mana cost to effect ratio they violated.Except this is something that has been going on through the entire game. And I'm not talking about cards that specifically cost less mana if you fulfill a requirement. I'm talking about cards that trade mana cost in exchange for something else, giving it the "violation" of mana cost to effect ratio that are being violated.

For another example, consider Lotus Bloom. Obviously, a 0-mana card that gives you 3 mana is far too powerful. And Lotus Bloom still costs 0 mana; that's a major violation of mana cost to effect ratio, because 3 mana of any color is worth more than 0 mana. But Lotus Bloom is not considered overpowered, because it has a cost in it other than mana: The fact you must wait 3 turns to use the thing.

Or, if you want to go all the way back to the beginning... how much should a vanilla Red 2/3 cost? Looking at some cards, it seems 3 mana is what you would normally cost it at. But wait a minute, Kird Ape only costs 1 mana! That's because its cost lies somewhere other than its mana: It requires you to have a Forest in play.

Obviously, how much of an extra cost these effects actually are depends on the deck. If you're running Taigas and fetchlands, the extra cost for Kird Ape is almost nonexistent because you're so guaranteed to have that Forest in play. The decks that are interested in playing such cards tend to be ones for which the extra cost is easily reduced or irrelevant. Nimble Mongoose is great in RUG Delver (or RUG Threshold if you're a traditionalist), yet it sees really no play in other decks. That's because while a 3/3 shroud creature for one Green mana is way, way over the curve, the other decks see its extra cost (requiring 7 cards in your graveyard) as too high and reject it, similar to how they would reject Mist Leopard for its cost being too high.

Cards like this are doing exactly what I've been saying: They reduce mana cost when you fulfill the right requirements. Perhaps not as obviously as something like Frogmite does, but they nevertheless do. If you have Threshold, then Nimble Mongoose's mana cost is effectively dropped, because you're getting a 3/3 shroud creature (which seems to be worth about 3-4 mana) for only one. But if you don't have Threshold, then its mana cost isn't reduced at all, and in fact is increased because you could be playing something like Slippery Boggle instead, which has hexproof instead of shroud and can be cast for Blue mana.

The game has never solely relied on mana cost to effect ratio to decide whether something is suitably powered/costed or not. It takes into account all of the costs of a card, mana or otherwise, in comparison to its effect.

In the case of Miracle, the extra cost is that to cast it for its lower mana cost, you can only do it when you draw it as the first card in your turn, and at any other point you must pay a premium mana cost to cast it (i.e. more than Hallowed Burial). Therefore, the card is only played in decks that can reduce that extra cost, namely decks running Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, and Jace the Mind Sculptor. If you don't meet the requirements, you're paying a premium mana cost, but if you do meet it, you get to save mana. Just like Nimble Mongoose.

Now, someone can claim that Terminus's effect is too powerful for its cost, which is one White mana plus the timing requirement. But again, that has nothing to do with the Miracle mechanic and everything to do with its total cost compared to its effect. No one complains about Revenge of the Hunted because its total cost (one Green mana plus the timing requirement) is considered too high for its effect. If Terminus breaks any basic rules in regards to mana cost compared to effect, it doesn't break it because of the Miracle; it breaks it for the same reason that Ancestral Recall breaks it, in that it gives you too much for its total cost (which for Ancestral Recall is simply its mana cost, as it has no extra cost associated with it).


Or to put it simpler and be as disingenuous as you are being. You could simply swap out Terminus for Massacres and Submerges? Foil/Thwart for foWs. And miracles would be fine, right?Massacre and Submerge don't even do the same thing as Terminus, so that's a poor comparison. As for Foil/Thwart for Force of Will, I'm not even sure what your point here is. The fact that some alternate casting costs are better than other alternate casting costs? Okay, but what does that have to do with anything?

Obviously I'm not supposed to take the argument seriously as you admit it is disingenuous, but I don't see how the argument even works.


Obviously all cards break the rules in some way. It's how far they go that is the topic. Not that the mechanic existed before. Or that there are other cards that do something similar. The power creep and how much of the basics of the game they break is what makes them good.Which again, has nothing to do with the Miracle mechanic, which is yet another in a long line of "set stuff up right and you get this for cheaper, but in recompense it's more expensive if you don't set things up right." Or, as I pointed out in my explanation on costs, yet another in an even longer line of "reduce something's mana cost in exchange for having to pay an additional non-mana cost." If you reject Miracle on the ground that it trades mana cost in exchange for a different cost, then you must reject every card that has ever had either a "if you fulfill this requirement, this card is more powerful" or "in exchange for a lower mana cost, this card comes with a drawback."

And that's not to say that the Miracle mechanic deserves no criticism. I think it actually does, but for completely different reasons. My problem with it is that it increases luck. While luck of course is a fundamental part of the game, a mechanic that does nothing but increase the luck factor is not a mechanic I think is a particularly good one.

I did not expect to write that much when I started on this post.

[menace13]

Their "flimsiness" is irrelevant. Your complaint was that the Miracles mechanic violated some basic rule of the game that you have never demonstrated actually exists. Being able to make cards cost less when you fulfill the right circumstances has been around for a long time.

It can't be irrelevant. They are tied together. No one is going to care if the card did anything that wasn't good. So, I don't see how it is irrelevant. Maybe if you want to stick to the this mechanic exists already line of argument. Which was also addressed by me in previous posts. Obviously the alternate costs have been around a long time. It has to do with how much the card does for 1 mana. There has never been a 1 mana wrath effect in the game. maybe Balance for 2 mana, but that does a host of other things and was designed when magic was fledgling.




You claim Force of Will has more narrow requirements. Is that why it sees way, way more play than Terminus? Force of Will requires you play Blue. Terminus requires you actively build your deck around it to ensure you have a real shot at being able to have it on top of your library when you need it. That seems like considerably more narrow requirements to me. Additionally, to be able to reliably use Terminus, you must have one of your deck-stacking cards, whereas Force of Will just requires a Blue card.
No, you misunderstood. The cards I named are the exception. Force was an exception to most others in that it is powerful and easy enough of a requirement to fulfill. Even though Force also requires you to build your deck around it as well. By virtue of playing more blue cards. I specifically placed a few cards on the outlier as they are above the curve. The rest are not good enough to see widespread play. Although Terminus in only 1 deck.




Though I would put the "blame" (if there is any) not on Terminus, but on Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Those are powerful cards with or without Terminus, particularly Brainstorm. On the other hand, Terminus is not particularly impressive without them. It's why it sees basically zero play in Modern.

Except this is something that has been going on through the entire game. And I'm not talking about cards that specifically cost less mana if you fulfill a requirement. I'm talking about cards that trade mana cost in exchange for something else, giving it the "violation" of mana cost to effect ratio that are being violated.

For another example, consider Lotus Bloom. Obviously, a 0-mana card that gives you 3 mana is far too powerful. And Lotus Bloom still costs 0 mana; that's a major violation of mana cost to effect ratio, because 3 mana of any color is worth more than 0 mana. But Lotus Bloom is not considered overpowered, because it has a cost in it other than mana: The fact you must wait 3 turns to use the thing.
This illustrates one of the reasons why Miracles are poorly designed. There is Restore Balance and Lotus Bloom and those are well designed. Powerful enough but not as good. Is there a deck that these spells are better in than their original namesake? No, I can't think of any. Terminus actually is better in its deck than Hallowed Burial. That is a design flaw and contempt for the basics of having an universal sweeper for 1 mana. Would it see play at 3 mana? Most undoubtedly not I believe. Like another one is LED. The design flaw was thinking at the time discard your hand was too narrow to abuse. Which to be fair at that time it was. While not the best example because the game has evolved so much since Mirage, bad design rears its head.




Or, if you want to go all the way back to the beginning... how much should a vanilla Red 2/3 cost? Looking at some cards, it seems 3 mana is what you would normally cost it at. But wait a minute, Kird Ape only costs 1 mana! That's because its cost lies somewhere other than its mana: It requires you to have a Forest in play.

Obviously, how much of an extra cost these effects actually are depends on the deck. If you're running Taigas and fetchlands, the extra cost for Kird Ape is almost nonexistent because you're so guaranteed to have that Forest in play. The decks that are interested in playing such cards tend to be ones for which the extra cost is easily reduced or irrelevant. Nimble Mongoose is great in RUG Delver (or RUG Threshold if you're a traditionalist), yet it sees really no play in other decks. That's because while a 3/3 shroud creature for one Green mana is way, way over the curve, the other decks see its extra cost (requiring 7 cards in your graveyard) as too high and reject it, similar to how they would reject Mist Leopard for its cost being too high.
Correct. Mana costs aren't the only thing taken into consideration when breaking the curve. Kird Ape in its hayday was a formidable card. As was Nacatl. Both banned in one format or another before the power creep. Paired with Goyf they gave us the Zoo deck. Which was a beast in 2009-2010. Mongoose is well designed despite being ahead of the curve. Similar to Terminus in that only one deck plays it. But not as globally powerful and constricting to most other decks.



Now, someone can claim that Terminus's effect is too powerful for its cost, which is one White mana plus the timing requirement. But again, that has nothing to do with the Miracle mechanic and everything to do with its total cost compared to its effect. No one complains about Revenge of the Hunted because its total cost (one Green mana plus the timing requirement) is considered too high for its effect. If Terminus breaks any basic rules in regards to mana cost compared to effect, it doesn't break it because of the Miracle; it breaks it for the same reason that Ancestral Recall breaks it, in that it gives you too much for its total cost (which for Ancestral Recall is simply its mana cost, as it has no extra cost associated with it).

I think the Miracle mechanic is why it is so poorly designed. Thankfully they didn't make an Ancestral Miracle. Recall breaks the mana cost to effect ratio wildly. Terminus in its deck does the same. While not as good as Recall, clearly. It nonetheless does as you stated. providing too much for too little with negligible drawbacks.



Massacre and Submerge don't even do the same thing as Terminus, so that's a poor comparison. As for Foil/Thwart for Force of Will, I'm not even sure what your point here is. The fact that some alternate casting costs are better than other alternate casting costs? Okay, but what does that have to do with anything?

Obviously I'm not supposed to take the argument seriously as you admit it is disingenuous, but I don't see how the argument even works.
While a poor comparison it serves to show that the effect is unprecedented for its cost. One couldn't simply replace a Terminus in Miracles with any other sweeper. Same relation to FoW/Daze. But those are not as oppressive as terminus is to creatures. The costs being better than others has to do with design and an adherence to basics of the game. All the other Miracles aren't really game breaking or even playable. Well designed. And some have seen play in some formats. Notably Bonfire in Standard. Sure Entreat is good, but I'd take Miracles with Entreat and no Terminus any day of the week. I'm sure most would.



Which again, has nothing to do with the Miracle mechanic, which is yet another in a long line of "set stuff up right and you get this for cheaper, but in recompense it's more expensive if you don't set things up right." Or, as I pointed out in my explanation on costs, yet another in an even longer line of "reduce something's mana cost in exchange for having to pay an additional non-mana cost." If you reject Miracle on the ground that it trades mana cost in exchange for a different cost, then you must reject every card that has ever had either a "if you fulfill this requirement, this card is more powerful" or "in exchange for a lower mana cost, this card comes with a drawback.".
I think it has everything to do with its mechanic. It wouldn't be so low costed if not for the mechanic. And no one would even play it if it cost 3 or 4. The mechanic coupled with an easy requirement and little drawbacks makes it what it is. Very few cards are even comparable despite being "free" or low costed. And of those cards, 2 are banned, and 2 see a ton of play. Brainstorm, Top, Jace are certainly its enablers but its limitations aren't as restricting as most of the other free cards. And none of them is a universal sweeper despite Massacre having a global effect it is limited to x/2s and Swamps and Plains. Very well designed I think. Free spells are always tricky, but I think they screwed up on this one. Even though it is only in one deck.



And that's not to say that the Miracle mechanic deserves no criticism. I think it actually does, but for completely different reasons. My problem with it is that it increases luck. While luck of course is a fundamental part of the game, a mechanic that does nothing but increase the luck factor is not a mechanic I think is a particularly good one.

I did not expect to write that much when I started on this post.
The mechanic is widely considered to be one that increases luck. A lucksack mechanic of sorts. But none of the others are remotely a problem. Turns out what I and some others thought would be broken in Time Walk really wasn't and Terminus is. One mana Burial is very much poorly designed and has too much of an impact on this format. Not ban worthy and not as powerful as say Show and Tell. But it is poorly designed with a luck sac mechanic and too low costed.

And, btw. One hell of a post you made. Great discussion. Not that I expected the usual Source one liner of something akin to " do you even lift, bro?":tongue:

[Dice_Box]

Ha, Chaos Warp for spells would be some kind of amazing Red counter.

"Shuffle target spell into its owner's library. They reveal the top card - if it shares a type, cast it without paying its cost. If not, BONED"

Lol when they hit an X spell. "GSZ aw fuk yoo man i quit"

I want that spell pretty bad now. Heck of a way to pwn the commander too

I want a FOW style Fork. Now that would be fun.

[Lord Seth]

As this discussion is rather off topic, I will try to respond to just a few points to avoid beleaguering it:


It can't be irrelevant. They are tied together. No one is going to care if the card did anything that wasn't good. So, I don't see how it is irrelevant. Maybe if you want to stick to the this mechanic exists already line of argument. Which was also addressed by me in previous posts. Obviously the alternate costs have been around a long time. It has to do with how much the card does for 1 mana. There has never been a 1 mana wrath effect in the game. maybe Balance for 2 mana, but that does a host of other things and was designed when magic was fledgling.You are again missing the point. If your problem is that the extra cost of the Miracle effect (having to draw it at the right time) does not adequately compensate for its lower mana cost, the problem there is not the Miracle effect, but the fact that the mana cost was not set correctly.

If Wizards of the Coast opted to print a 6/6 flying haste creature for one Red mana with the drawback of hitting you for one damage during your upkeep, would you consider this card a reason of how "ping drawbacks" (or whatever you want to call cards that make you lose 1 life per turn) are badly designed and break the basic rules of the game because it results in such an undercosted creature? I doubt it.


This illustrates one of the reasons why Miracles are poorly designed. There is Restore Balance and Lotus Bloom and those are well designed. Powerful enough but not as good. Is there a deck that these spells are better in than their original namesake? No, I can't think of any. Terminus actually is better in its deck than Hallowed Burial. That is a design flaw and contempt for the basics of having an universal sweeper for 1 mana. Would it see play at 3 mana? Most undoubtedly not I believe. Like another one is LED. The design flaw was thinking at the time discard your hand was too narrow to abuse. Which to be fair at that time it was. While not the best example because the game has evolved so much since Mirage, bad design rears its head.I'm sorry, but this point is nonsensical. Your argument is that Restore Balance and Lotus Bloom are A-OK because you basically never want them instead of the originals, but Terminus can be better than Hallowed Burial. The key point you miss here is the fact that Balance and Black Lotus are crazy broken whereas Hallowed Burial is merely an okay card. It's not really a valid comparison because the power levels of the "original" cards are so disparate.


I think the Miracle mechanic is why it is so poorly designed. Thankfully they didn't make an Ancestral Miracle. Recall breaks the mana cost to effect ratio wildly. Terminus in its deck does the same. While not as good as Recall, clearly. It nonetheless does as you stated. providing too much for too little with negligible drawbacks.Again, let's go back to that 6/6 flying haste creature for one Red mana. Would you blame the "ping drawback" for it being overpowered? No, you would say that the creature's problem is its drawback isn't big enough. Which is a very different matter.


While a poor comparison it serves to show that the effect is unprecedented for its cost. One couldn't simply replace a Terminus in Miracles with any other sweeper. Same relation to FoW/Daze. But those are not as oppressive as terminus is to creatures. The costs being better than others has to do with design and an adherence to basics of the game. All the other Miracles aren't really game breaking or even playable. Well designed. And some have seen play in some formats. Notably Bonfire in Standard. Sure Entreat is good, but I'd take Miracles with Entreat and no Terminus any day of the week. I'm sure most would.Okay, now you're saying something completely different. You kept talking about how the Miracle mechanic broke the basic rules of the game, and now you suddenly turn around and say that these other Miracle cards are okay. So what is it?


I think it has everything to do with its mechanic. It wouldn't be so low costed if not for the mechanic. And no one would even play it if it cost 3 or 4.Again, look at my example. Is the problem there the ping mechanic itself? No, it isn't. It's absurd to say "creatures that damage their controller are badly designed because this one creature with that ability is totally overpowered!"


The mechanic is widely considered to be one that increases luck. A lucksack mechanic of sorts. But none of the others are remotely a problem. Turns out what I and some others thought would be broken in Time Walk really wasn't and Terminus is. One mana Burial is very much poorly designed and has too much of an impact on this format. Not ban worthy and not as powerful as say Show and Tell. But it is poorly designed with a luck sac mechanic and too low costed.I know this is getting even more off topic, but I would say the worst one is not Terminus, but Bonfire of the Damned. That card may see pretty much no Legacy play, but it was huge in its Standard environment, and that's where I find it highly problematic.

Look at the various Miracle cards without cards like Brainstorm or Sensei's Divining Top, when you have to just draw them naturally. You might notice something they tend to have in common: You sometimes have no interest in casting them when you draw them. For example, Terminus can feel like a waste if your opponent has only 1 creature in play, so you may wish to put it into your hand and hope to cast it later for a bigger blowout. Alternatively, you may not want to cast it because it hurts you due to having a creature in play. I remember seeing quite a few players draw a Terminus and opt not to cast it because the timing was poor enough they judged it was preferable to have to hold onto it, even if it meant they had to wait until they had 6 mana to get any usage out of it.

Similarly, Revenge of the Hunted (which was substantially less popular but still was a minor player), while powerful when cast for only one mana, can frequently be drawn in situations where casting it isn't optimal, forcing you to decide whether to cast it for cheap right then or wait for a better opportunity and have to spend 6 mana on it when you do.

Additionally, there is the very real possibility that casting them, even for their cheap costs, will prevent you from casting another spell that turn you wanted to cast. While in some cases it's obvious if you want to cast it or not (if your opponent has no creatures in play you're sure not casting that Terminus), a lot of the time it requires some thinking. And you have to do said thinking very fast, or else your opponent will know you drew a miracle card.

Bonfire of the Damned doesn't have that problem. If you have the mana to cast it (which requires only 2 lands), you will want to cast it when you draw it basically every single time no matter what the board state is, because it's pretty much always preferable to do that than to wait and hardcast it. Sure, Bonfire is a liability if it's in your opening hand, but once you have two lands in play, it's pretty much never a bad idea to cast it as it's drawn, unlike something like Terminus. Heck, I'd argue that of all the Miracle cards, Bonfire of the Damned has the best ratio of mana cost to power when hardcast. Thus, it removes the actual strategy of Miracles, something Terminus retains.

Due to this, Bonfire of the Damned is the biggest, per your terms, "lucksack" of the Miracle cards due to its lack of strategy. Most of the hate in that Standard environment went towards Thragtusk, but I think Bonfire of the Damned was the most irritating card in Innistrad-RTR Standard.

So much for trying to keep things brief...

[menace13]

You are again missing the point. If your problem is that the extra cost of the Miracle effect (having to draw it at the right time) does not adequately compensate for its lower mana cost, the problem there is not the Miracle effect, but the fact that the mana cost was not set correctly.
I think youre missing the point. The problem isn't so abstract. It directly relates and is ingrained in the mechanic itself. You cant separate the cost when the cost is part of what the mechanic is. Semantically you keep arguing that the mechanic is different from the cost. But that's not entirely true from a design standpoint when one correlates to the other. Terminus for one doesnt exist without the Miracle drawback.



If Wizards of the Coast opted to print a 6/6 flying haste creature for one Red mana with the drawback of hitting you for one damage during your upkeep, would you consider this card a reason of how "ping drawbacks" (or whatever you want to call cards that make you lose 1 life per turn) are badly designed and break the basic rules of the game because it results in such an undercosted creature? I doubt it.


Again, let's go back to that 6/6 flying haste creature for one Red mana. Would you blame the "ping drawback" for it being overpowered? No, you would say that the creature's problem is its drawback isn't big enough. Which is a very different matter.

Again, look at my example. Is the problem there the ping mechanic itself? No, it isn't. It's absurd to say "creatures that damage their controller are badly designed because this one creature with that ability is totally overpowered!"
That would be terribly designed. The Ping creatures were in their day powerful and above the curve. If they made a set of new ones and one of them was the card you you made up. Then the problem wouldn't be the mechanic. But this doesnt reflect Miracles as an alt cost. Youre bringing up Kird Apes again. Which has just one cost. Totally absurd comparison. And one that has no basis since a card as such doesnt exist. Nor ever will.




I'm sorry, but this point is nonsensical. Your argument is that Restore Balance and Lotus Bloom are A-OK because you basically never want them instead of the originals, but Terminus can be better than Hallowed Burial. The key point you miss here is the fact that Balance and Black Lotus are crazy broken whereas Hallowed Burial is merely an okay card. It's not really a valid comparison because the power levels of the "original" cards are so disparate.
That is the entirety of the issue. Terminus is better than the original. It's not even close. And again unprecedented. They didnt take a broken card and tried to fix the cost. They took a good card and broke its cost.

The mechanic in this case is tied to its alternative cost and drawback.

[Lord Seth]

I think youre missing the point. The problem isn't so abstract. It directly relates and is ingrained in the mechanic itself. You cant separate the cost when the cost is part of what the mechanic is. Semantically you keep arguing that the mechanic is different from the cost. But that's not entirely true from a design standpoint when one correlates to the other. Terminus for one doesnt exist without the Miracle drawback.But yet again, you keep complaining about how the simple idea of Miracles is a bad one because they make cards cost less, yet the only actual argument you've put forward is that one Miracle card is too good according to you, which again comes down to it (in your view) being undercosted. This could be easily changed while retaining the Miracle mechanic.


That would be terribly designed. The Ping creatures were in their day powerful and above the curve. If they made a set of new ones and one of them was the card you you made up. Then the problem wouldn't be the mechanic. But this doesnt reflect Miracles as an alt cost. Youre bringing up Kird Apes again. Which has just one cost. Totally absurd comparison. And one that has no basis since a card as such doesnt exist. Nor ever will.Sorry, but it's not an totally absurd comparison. Your complain is continually that it costs too little, and for some reason the Miracle cost is to blame, even though it could be fixed in your view while retaining the Miracle mechanic. Similarly, the overpowered 6/6 hasted flyer could be fixed if it cost more.

You complain about the analogy not being a perfect one because it doesn't have an alternate cost, but that's actually besides the point that's being made.


That is the entirety of the issue. Terminus is better than the original. It's not even close.So again, you are pointing to one instance of Miracle, not the Miracle mechanic itself. And you even said that the other Miracle cards were fine and called them "well-designed." So why are you suddenly turning around and saying Miracle is a problem? I feel like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. If you want to complain about Terminus, fine, but leave the mechanic out of it, especially when complaining about the mechanic goes straight against what you've said.

And I'd like to once again point out that the only reason Terminus is better than the original is because of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top, which are very powerful cards without Terminus. Meanwhile, Terminus is significantly weaker when not using those cards, and Hallowed Burial is by far the better option. It's why there were 5 decks in the last Magic Championship that used Hallowed Burial, while zero used Terminus.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm not certain I understand the disapproval of Terminus... There SHOULD be a control deck that can reliably sweep the board in a healthy Legacy meta. If I was going to complain about a card in Miracles, it would be Entreat. :1: per 4/4 flyer after a :w::w: investment is way more OP than a board reset.

:w: is undercosted for a Hallowed Burial, but this is Legacy. If it cost much more than that it wouldn't be good enough. Menace, what would you consider a fair cost for Terminus to be miracled? :w::w:? I personally would be happier if the miracle cost was: :w:, you must apologize to your opponent and buy him a coke.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not certain I understand the disapproval of Terminus... There SHOULD be a control deck that can reliably sweep the board in a healthy Legacy meta. If I was going to complain about a card in Miracles, it would be Entreat. :1: per 4/4 flyer after a :w::w: investment is way more OP than a board reset.

:w: is undercosted for a Hallowed Burial, but this is Legacy. If it cost much more than that it wouldn't be good enough. Menace, what would you consider a fair cost for Terminus to be miracled? :w::w:? I personally would be happier if the miracle cost was: :w:, you must apologize to your opponent and buy him a coke.

You know that people used to play Wrath of God in Legacy, right?

[Ace/Homebrew]

You know that people used to play Wrath of God in Legacy, right?

They used to play Werebear and Morphling too... What is your point? (no snark intended, I'd actually like to know where you were going with that)

[wonderPreaux]

You know that people used to play Wrath of God in Legacy, right?

FWIW, Miracles and Esperblade have been known to have Supreme Verdict too, not just Terminus, it's not as though 4 mana is impossible for decks that play some of the most lands in the format (barring... ya know, "lands" decks). Terminus isn't the difference between "boardwipe and no boardwipe", thats the point.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Terminus isn't the difference between "boardwipe and no boardwipe", thats the point.
Okay, but decks dedicated to killing quickly with creature damage can do so by turn 3 or 4. Terminus allows the control player to sweep before the 4 mana Wrath is possible. It also allows for instant speed wiping when the opponent attacks. Before Terminus, Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry and whatnot. Terminus allowed the deck to become a major player again (similar to how DRS brought Elves into the mainstream).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

They used to play Werebear and Morphling too... What is your point? (no snark intended, I'd actually like to know where you were going with that)

Morphling was never really played in Legacy. I mean you can find a few odd, old cases I guess but not like regularly. Wrath of God saw regular Legacy play before it was needlessly obsoleted. So yeah it's comparable to Tarmogoyf replacing Werebear or Ponder replacing Portent. Just random shit Wizards did for no reason except they suck at design.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Morphling was never really played in Legacy.
Right, but you know what I meant. :wink:


So yeah it's comparable to Tarmogoyf replacing Werebear or Ponder replacing Portent. Just random shit Wizards did for no reason except they suck at design.
$$$ my friend!
Wizards needs people to open packs.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Okay, but decks dedicated to killing quickly with creature damage can do so by turn 3

No they can't. I mean maybe an ideal Goblins hand but that deck barely sees play.


or 4.

Sometimes. That was also true when Wrath saw lots of play though.


Terminus allows the control player to sweep before the 4 mana Wrath is possible. It also allows for instant speed wiping when the opponent attacks.

The latter is more important. Also just paying one mana for things is great at any point in the game. It's not being able to wrath on turn 2 that makes Terminus good, you very rarely want to do that anyway.


Before Terminus, Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry and whatnot. Terminus allowed the deck to become a major player again (similar to how DRS brought Elves into the mainstream).

You're contradicting yourself here by pointing out it's "again," counter/top has been relevant at various points.

Really Abrupt Decay is a bigger problem there anyway.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Right, but you know what I meant.


....no?


$$$ my friend!
Wizards needs people to open packs.

This is not a good defense.

[Ace/Homebrew]

....no?


So yeah it's comparable to Tarmogoyf replacing Werebear or Ponder replacing Portent.
See! You got it.



This is not a good defense.
It wasn't intended as a defense! Just a statement of fact...



You're contradicting yourself here by pointing out it's "again," counter/top has been relevant at various points.

You love debating huh? :smile:
I said "Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry".

[wonderPreaux]

Okay, but decks dedicated to killing quickly with creature damage can do so by turn 3 or 4. Terminus allows the control player to sweep before the 4 mana Wrath is possible. It also allows for instant speed wiping when the opponent attacks. Before Terminus, Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry and whatnot. Terminus allowed the deck to become a major player again (similar to how DRS brought Elves into the mainstream).

Why should control have board wipes before turn 4? Esper decks can transition from t2 SFM -> t3 batterskull as a pivot already which can carry them to stability, or stall until Verdict can come down (sometimes even with counter backup for the following turn). Counter/Top can run that same model easily. Moreover, as mentioned before, creature-based damage isn't often killing on t3, and even if it is, why shouldn't an above average draw win a game? What entitles control to have a bullet that can invalidate even the best of aggro hands? t4 sweeps actually creates tension and inflection points, those are skill-testing elements in a game, terminus just says "well, no matter how well the aggro player orchestrates things, he can still get fucked".

[TsumiBand]

In fairness, Terminus is terrible against Rebels.
...
...
...

[Barook]

Okay, but decks dedicated to killing quickly with creature damage can do so by turn 3 or 4. Terminus allows the control player to sweep before the 4 mana Wrath is possible. It also allows for instant speed wiping when the opponent attacks. Before Terminus, Counter/Top control wasn't a big player but had some interesting builds with Thopter Foundry and whatnot. Terminus allowed the deck to become a major player again (similar to how DRS brought Elves into the mainstream).
DRS certainly made Elves better, but wasn't Craterhoof the main reason why Elves became good? Having a "WIN NOW"-card certainly made the deck better.

Miracles is a retarded design and whoever came up with it deserves a severe beating. It either

a) is randomly drawn and increases the luck factor even more or
b) is utterly broken with library manipulation.

Neither of these cases are desireable. Terminus is the worst offender since it breaks the basic rule of MtG of unconditional board sweepers costing 4+ mana while more conditional sweepers (e.g. Pyroclasm) can be cheaper. Toxic Deluge is probably another exception, but way more reasonable than instant speed Super-Wrath-of-God for :w:. The cheapness also prevents mana denial to work when they can fire off Terminus for 1-2 mana. There are worlds between a 4 mana sweeper like Verdict and a 1 mana sweeper like Terminus.

I have no problem with PWs being Commanders. There were already house rules where this was alloweded. And I doubt the walkers would be good enough to turn the format upside-down. I'm more concerned about Wizards going full-retard again and printing some wonky-designed card that violates basic design rules under the pretext of Commander/multiplayer magic. What we want and need are more well-designed cards like Flusterstorm and Scavenging Ooze, not another TNN/Council's Judgment.

[pcalexander]

Terminus is the worst offender since it breaks the basic rule of MtG of unconditional board sweepers costing 4+ mana while more conditional sweepers (e.g. Pyroclasm) can be cheaper.

I would like to see this rule.

[Barook]

I would like to see this rule.
Name another sweeper (aside from Toxic Deluge) that costs less than 4 mana and isn't conditional in some way (e.g. Perish only killing green creatures, red damage-based sweepers, Zealous Persecution/Golgari Charm only hitting X/1 creatures etc.).

[TheArchitect]

Terminus is the worst offender since it breaks the basic rule of MtG of unconditional board sweepers costing 4+ mana while more conditional sweepers (e.g. Pyroclasm) can be cheaper.

How is terminus unconditional? Have you ever played miracles? Terminus is often terrible. It does nothing if it is in your hand. You usually have to combo it with top or brainstorm to get any value out of it.

[Barook]

How is terminus unconditional? Have you ever played miracles? Terminus is often terrible. It does nothing if it is in your hand. You usually have to combo it with top or brainstorm to get any value out of it.
Unconditional in terms of "kill everything". You still have to fulfill the requirements, as you said. Doesn't change the fact that Terminus can often be played for 1 or 2 mana which you can't do with any other "kill everything"-sweeper.

[Richard Cheese]

The real problem with Terminus is the way it clears the board. It not only gets around hexproof/shroud, but indestructible, regeneration, recursion, and abilities that trigger on "dying". Considering there isn't even a universal -x/-2 effect for less than 3, it seems pretty undercosted to me at W for something that's often cast at instant speed. I get that it has a drawback, but jamming 3-4 of them with Top, Brainstorm, Jace, and shuffle effects means that more often than not you can get one out of your hand if you open with it. Oh, you know what's great at buying time to sculpt your hand with stuff like that...Terminus!

Even if it were WW it would still be amazing. Hell, it would probably still be playable at 1WW.

[Lord Seth]

Name another sweeper (aside from Toxic Deluge) that costs less than 4 mana and isn't conditional in some way (e.g. Perish only killing green creatures, red damage-based sweepers, Zealous Persecution/Golgari Charm only hitting X/1 creatures etc.).Planar Collapse.

[Barsoom]

Planar Collapse.

"if there are four or more creatures on the battlefield" is totally conditional to me.

[Adryan]

Announcement Date: July 31, 2014
Effective Date: August 1, 2014
Magic Online Effective Date: August 6, 2014

Modern
No changes

Magic Online Pauper. Standard, Vintage
No changes

Legacy
Terminus is banned. Card is too busted. Show&Tell is fun and skill intensive to play against, but Terminus is not.

[Dzra]

Easy, don't overextend and try diversifying your threats with Planeswalkers and other non-creature permanents.
And so it gets around Hexproof and Shroud. Great, no one likes those mechanics anyways, still not seeing the problem.

[menace13]

:w: is undercosted for a Hallowed Burial, but this is Legacy.


How is terminus unconditional? Have you ever played miracles? Terminus is often terrible. It does nothing if it is in your hand. You usually have to combo it with top or brainstorm to get any value out of it.

Do you even lift, bro? Is a fine statement. And This is Legacy is a great defense of otherwise botched design. Terminus in Miracle decks isn't very conditionally restrictive. You'll have many ways to get it off. They have been performing it just fine, clearly.


I would like to see this rule.


Name another
If you want to see it printed out on paper. Then, no. We can't show it to you. But if youre going to ignore every other card in the game. Then you're right again. We can't show you this rule.


But yet again, you keep complaining about how the simple idea of Miracles is a bad one because they make cards cost less, yet the only actual argument you've put forward is that one Miracle card is too good according to you, which again comes down to it (in your view) being undercosted. This could be easily changed while retaining the Miracle mechanic.
The mechanic is why they made it cost 1. Cant separate the two from one another. The other miracles are well designed. The mechanic isn't. The others that are using the mechanic aren't as oppressive or have as much of an impact. Despite all of them having a shitty mechanic that rewards top decking and dubbing that it is a "Miracle". While also breaking another basic rule of playing Sorcery as an instant whenever you want to and can fulfill the requirement of the Miracle. Which is easily gotten around. That is also broken by the Cascade mechanic to an extent as well.

WotC cannot go back and swap out costs after a card see print. They try to fix things by making cards immune to certain things. Like KGrip or Decay against CounterTops and Delver decks. Or CJudgement against TNNs. They allowed a one mana Instant speed Hallowed Burial because they figured the drawbacks were enough. They were wrong for this format though.



And I'd like to once again point out that the only reason Terminus is better than the original is because of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top, which are very powerful cards without Terminus. Meanwhile, Terminus is significantly weaker when not using those cards, and Hallowed Burial is by far the better option. It's why there were 5 decks in the last Magic Championship that used Hallowed Burial, while zero used Terminus.
Agreed. But in this format we have at least 4 enablers for it. Mtg Championships had 10 Burials in the top 16. Legacy has 0 in any. Youre right that without them they are weaker than the original. It's also true when you said Bonfire was played because unlike Terminus there wasn't really a wrong time for the player to use it if miracle'd. Burial offered more control of when to cast it and was one mana cheaper. Which made all the difference in the world. If Terminus was 3ww then they'd swap over to that because it's the same card with way more upside conditionally. All those limitations however go right out the window in Top, Brainstorm, Jace, Ponder full playsets format.

Now you can Cue all the Miracles players with even more ridiculous defenses. Such as SnT is fine? And Don't play creatures..

[Lord Seth]

"if there are four or more creatures on the battlefield" is totally conditional to me.And so is "when you draw this card, you may cast it for its Miracle cost." The unconditional portion referred to it having no conditions as to what creatures it destroyed, not there being no conditions as to when you could fire it off.

[Dice_Box]

The condition of playing in Legacy is starting with 4x Brainstorm (Ok minor hyperbole) so Miracles as a set up is not really the most difficult thing in the world to set up. 1 mana wipe is a pain and any conditions placed upon it are rather easy to mitigate with the legacy card pool.

*Disappearing back into the grandstands now*

[HammafistRoob]

Glad to see we now have a dedicated Terminus thread named "Commander 2014", good job guys.

MtgtheSource: Your source for thread derailment

[Darkenslight]

Glad to see we now have a dedicated Terminus thread named "Commander 2014", good job guys.

MtgtheSource: Your source for thread derailment

That depends on whether Terminus is being reprinted in C2014.

[TsumiBand]

Glad to see we now have a dedicated Terminus thread named "Commander 2014", good job guys.

MtgtheSource: Your source for thread derailment
Hey, I tried pivoting the conversation to Rebels. It's not my fault!

[Feaor]

Glad to see we now have a dedicated Terminus thread named "Commander 2014", good job guys.

MtgtheSource: Your source for thread derailment

I was going to say, how is there 6 pages of discussion already on 2 cards, both of which are very unlikely to see play in Legacy. I guess the answer is that this is now a Terminus thread.

[TsumiBand]

I was going to say, how is there 6 pages of discussion already on 2 cards, both of which are very unlikely to see play in Legacy. I guess the answer is that this is now a Terminus thread.

Well we came by it honestly, really. I know that I've expressed sentiments about the nature of certain cards and mechanics lately that are working to re-establish the previous status quo, just with different words. Case in point: changing the game play from "Swords your Kird Ape" to "Council's Judgment voting for True-Name Nemesis" was one big long trip through experiments with indestructible vs. tuck, hexproof vs. sacrifices, etc etc etc... all the while trying to find a game state which recreated the old dynamic of "target creature needs to get off my battlefield".

And since our format doesn't rotate, these tricks never leave -- so when something comes along that can "target the untargetable" or "destroy the indestructible", you turn back to your older cards that don't have any of the fancy words like "hexproof" and "vote" and shit and you're like... "you promised you would never be irrelevant, Kird Ape... YOU SWORE" and Kird Ape is like "..." cuz it's just cardboard yo, don't talk to your Magic cards #foreveralone

So vis-a-vis this looming mentality of what all this experimentation with answers to indestructible hexproof guys does to answers, and how it changes the way the rest of the format plays Magic, we get more of that weird experimentation, only THIS time it's with a format that people tend to either love or hate, and if you love it you are a little guarded about it because it is supposed to be arbitrated independently of WotC, and yet here they go messing with one of the most defining rules of the format - "select a Legendary Creature as your commander" - so people get nervous!

I'm mostly over it myself, because I realized that even if planeswalkers as commanders are just Sorceries (a one-shot effect during my turn, and then my commander gets runned over by everyone's pissy 6/6s), then I have some nerve playing Sedris in EDH. So I'm a hypocrite, and I got over it. But I get wanting to squeal about it for a minute, because EDH is a format that a player may claim a little more ownership over than, say, Modern or Legacy.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So vis-a-vis this looming mentality of what all this experimentation with answers to indestructible hexproof guys does to answers, and how it changes the way the rest of the format plays Magic, we get more of that weird experimentation, only THIS time it's with a format that people tend to either love or hate, and if you love it you are a little guarded about it because it is supposed to be arbitrated independently of WotC, and yet here they go messing with one of the most defining rules of the format - "select a Legendary Creature as your commander" - so people get nervous!

EDH is a format that a player may claim a little more ownership over than, say, Modern or Legacy.

Basically this new Teferi feels to me like if WotC starts to dip into Old School 93/94 Magic with new prints of Erhnam Djinns, Strip Mines and Chaos Pikachu

Chaos Pikachu :1::r:http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?size=small&name=UP&type=symbol
Tribal Planeswalker - Pikachu

Chaos Pikachu might be played in 93/94
as thought it was printed in Arabian Nights.
Sincerely, your WotC.

+1: City in a Bottle
-7: Chaos Orb
_____________________ 4

[Ace/Homebrew]

Well we came by it honestly, really. I know that I've expressed sentiments about the nature of certain cards and mechanics lately that are working to re-establish the previous status quo, just with different words. Case in point: changing the game play from "Swords your Kird Ape" to "Council's Judgment voting for True-Name Nemesis" was one big long trip through experiments with indestructible vs. tuck, hexproof vs. sacrifices, etc etc etc... all the while trying to find a game state which recreated the old dynamic of "target creature needs to get off my battlefield".

And since our format doesn't rotate, these tricks never leave -- so when something comes along that can "target the untargetable" or "destroy the indestructible", you turn back to your older cards that don't have any of the fancy words like "hexproof" and "vote" and shit and you're like... "you promised you would never be irrelevant, Kird Ape... YOU SWORE" and Kird Ape is like "..." cuz it's just cardboard yo, don't talk to your Magic cards #foreveralone

So vis-a-vis this looming mentality of what all this experimentation with answers to indestructible hexproof guys does to answers, and how it changes the way the rest of the format plays Magic, we get more of that weird experimentation, only THIS time it's with a format that people tend to either love or hate, and if you love it you are a little guarded about it because it is supposed to be arbitrated independently of WotC, and yet here they go messing with one of the most defining rules of the format - "select a Legendary Creature as your commander" - so people get nervous!

Do you even lift, bro?
I can't wait for them to spoil Jaya Ballard so we can spend 5 pages debating TNN. :laugh:

It is difficult to make a convincing argument that Teferi will see any play in Legacy as a 6 mana planeswalker. What is nice, but probably just for Commander, is that he untaps the exact number of lands required to play Supreme Verdict. He could also untap your creatures, so in a sense he does protect himself (indirectly).

He's not good enough for Vintage, right? I don't even lift Vintage, but he does untap Time Vault. :rolleyes:

[Lemnear]

Do you even lift, bro?
I can't wait for them to spoil Jaya Ballard so we can spend 5 pages debating TNN. :laugh:

It is difficult to make a convincing argument that Teferi will see any play in Legacy as a 6 mana planeswalker. What is nice, but probably just for Commander, is that he untaps the exact number of lands required to play Supreme Verdict. He could also untap your creatures, so in a sense he does protect himself (indirectly).

He's not good enough for Vintage, right? I don't even lift Vintage, but he does untap Time Vault. :rolleyes:

Untaps Tolarian Academy + Time Vault to have enough mana to hardcast Blightsteel Colossus :wink:

[Richard Cheese]

I was going to say, how is there 6 pages of discussion already on 2 cards, both of which are very unlikely to see play in Legacy. I guess the answer is that this is now a Terminus thread.

It's all connected in the end. New planeswalker breaks the rules of a non-sanctioned format. Terminus breaks the rules of Legacy. Phasing is the best answer to Terminus. New planeswalker sucks because none of his abilities involve phasing.

New best creature in Legacy:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/vi/41.jpg

[TsumiBand]

Do you even lift, bro?

http://www.gifwave.com/media/76784/angry-teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-shaking-michelangelo.gif


I can't wait for them to spoil Jaya Ballard so we can spend 5 pages debating TNN. :laugh:

It is difficult to make a convincing argument that Teferi will see any play in Legacy as a 6 mana planeswalker. What is nice, but probably just for Commander, is that he untaps the exact number of lands required to play Supreme Verdict. He could also untap your creatures, so in a sense he does protect himself (indirectly).

He's not good enough for Vintage, right? I don't even lift Vintage, but he does untap Time Vault. :rolleyes:

I still really don't think it's about its playability, just its existence. The *mere thought* that a planeswalker could exist in the command zone -- it's like if there was a woman at a prerelease, or like if they served Big Macs at Burger King, or if like a guy from the Holodeck was in a place not on the Holodeck! Off-sides, mo-fucky, off-sides!

For some kind of srs though, I'm real glad he untaps for Supreme Verdict mana -- too bad about that color identity business. Obviously there are applications for all the walkers outside the command zone, just I thought that was funny is all. He's actually less exploitable as a commander, because his abilities are honestly not that amazing in mono-bluh.

[Barook]

Feldon is back!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-o7nxxc64MSo/VEp3JZxUXbI/AAAAAAAAGdE/5oHxmDYIGfk/w265-h370-no/feldon.jpg

[Gheizen64]

It's a beautiful flavored card, but 6 mana and a turn to get a sneak attack for your graveyard isn't the best effect there is. I mean, Welder is unplayed in this format and its effect is probably better than this one at R to cast and 0 to activate.
The active could cost 0 on this and it would still be unplayable, so just right for a red card :cool:

But really, i like the card a lot for flavor, too bad it's overcosted red jank as always. Meanwhile Maro is worried about Chaos Warp because it ruin magic and TNN is a brilliant card :frown:

[LOLWut]

Feldon is back!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-o7nxxc64MSo/VEp3JZxUXbI/AAAAAAAAGdE/5oHxmDYIGfk/w265-h370-no/feldon.jpg

I don't know the Feldon story, but that's quite beautifully romantic, whether of the love variety or of the emotional and adventurous aesthetics variety. A little of the Police "Every Breath You Take" creepiness, too.

[danyul]

I don't know the Feldon story, but that's quite beautifully romantic, whether of the love variety or of the emotional and adventurous aesthetics variety. A little of the Police "Every Breath You Take" creepiness, too.

I didn't know the Feldon story either, but this got me to reminisce about the time when I would play Feldon's Cane in my casual decks just so I wouldn't deck myself in long multiplayer games (back in my scrubby past). The flavor of that shit is so sad! So then I wiki'd Feldon's backstory (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Feldon) and remembered actually reading the story they summarize under The Study of Magic. I had all the MTG books as a youngin and I totally read that story, although I didn't remember that it was about Feldon. That shit is. SO. Sad!

I need this card for my EDH deck so I can shed nerdy-salty-Vorthos tears every time I play it.

[LOLWut]

I didn't know the Feldon story either, but this got me to reminisce about the time when I would play Feldon's Cane in my casual decks just so I wouldn't deck myself in long multiplayer games (back in my scrubby past). The flavor of that shit is so sad! So then I wiki'd Feldon's backstory (http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Feldon) and remembered actually reading the story they summarize under The Study of Magic. I had all the MTG books as a youngin and I totally read that story, although I didn't remember that it was about Feldon. That shit is. SO. Sad!

I need this card for my EDH deck so I can shed nerdy-salty-Vorthos tears every time I play it.

Oh damn, sad stuff.

[Finn]

It really isn't all that similar to Sneak Attack because you can duplicate the same creature every turn.

[thecrav]

I could see potential in BR reanimator. My favorite potential thing to do with this would be to bring back a Blightsteel but that's 100% magical Christmas land.

[(nameless one)]

I could see potential in BR reanimator. My favorite potential thing to do with this would be to bring back a Blightsteel but that's 100% magical Christmas land.

You can't. Blightsteel has that "can't be reanimated" clause :(

[thecrav]

You can't. Blightsteel has that "can't be reanimated" clause :(

Oh right, it's not done like Emrakul. That's okay. I'll just reanimate Emrakul instead! :D

[Barook]

I could see potential in BR reanimator. My favorite potential thing to do with this would be to bring back a Blightsteel but that's 100% magical Christmas land.
While Blightsteel doesn't work, one could bring back Emrakul for shit and jiggles.

Edit: Nevermind, didn't see the new page.

[apple713]

Feldon is back!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-o7nxxc64MSo/VEp3JZxUXbI/AAAAAAAAGdE/5oHxmDYIGfk/w265-h370-no/feldon.jpg

is no one questioning why red gets a reanimation spell? red has never had one...let alone a really good one like this. The closes thing is goblin welder and welder is only artifacts, and thus consistent with red's color wheel.

[Bobmans]

Flavour wise it is not reanimating. It is more like creating a constructed copy of the blueprint laying dead in the graveyard. The image kind of reminds me to i-robot :-/

[apple713]

Flavour wise it is not reanimating. It is more like creating a constructed copy of the blueprint laying dead in the graveyard. The image kind of reminds me to i-robot :-/

copying a permanent is a blue ability

copy artifact
clone
phyrexian metamorph
cleaver impersonator


copying a spell is a red ability


fork
Chandra, the Firebrand
Pyromancer Ascension


of the red cards that do copy creatures three are maybe 3


heat shimmer
kiki jiki
splinter twin


none of which involve graveyard. In fact only one card comes to mind when thinking about graveyard, and red, and that is past in flame, but that only applies to instant / sorcery.

The point I'm trying to make is that red is getting access to something it never has previously been able to do.

[Dice_Box]

Toys from the war? I am interested in where this all goes. As for his effect, from memory he stripped the stone from his creation and let it rest. It's flavourful and true to his character but against much of the pie. Also he should have been Red/White. I dislike that the solid coloured set idea.

[bruizar]

@Apple: Does it even matter anymore? How many competitive mono-colored decks exist? Death & Taxes is one... Even elves (and goblins, back when it was good) is multicolor nowadays. The only deck that can afford to run 1 color besides Death & Taxes is perhaps a high tide variant since true control long departed from mono-colors. People place too much emphasis on spilling the color pie; as if dual lands and fetch have yet to be invented. Also, the effect may be new in the sense that red can interact with non-artifact creatures in the graveyard, but it's not that distant from some of its other cards. It's not like red can't recur its stuff or interact with the graveyard...

Artifacts.
Trash for Treasure
Goblin Welder
Slag Fiend

But also on instants and sorceries.

Recoup
Past in Flames

What about burn?
Hammer of Bogardan
Punishing Fire

Or recurring phoenixes, a theme that's been around since legends?
Firestorm Phoenix
Ashcloud Phoenix
Chandra's Phoenix
Firewing Phoenix
Kuldotha Phoenix
Magma Phoenix
Shard Phoenix
Shivan Phoenix
Worldheart Phoenix

[Barook]

People complain about red pseudo-reanimation? Really?

Feldon is certainly more in line with the color pie than TNN, even when several abilities are just mashed up together.

[lyracian]

People complain about red pseudo-reanimation? Really?
Feldon is certainly more in line with the color pie than TNN, even when several abilities are just mashed up together.
If only we had a "like" button...

He made a Golem of his wife which makes the card a great look back at 20 year old magic history.
Game wise he is just a twist on Kiki-Jiki that targets graveyard not in play; seems fine to me.

[bruizar]

I've been eye-balling cavern of souls on artificer for quiet a while now. I really wish this card was more competitive, especially given its importance to magic history..

I've had my eyes on it ever since Stoneforge Mystic, Goblin Welder, Arcum Dagsson.

Recent artificers include the new Feldon Muzzio, Visionary Architect, Flamewright, Splicers & Smiths, Master Transmuter, Mishra, Artificer Prodigy, Shattergang Brothers, Sydri, Galvanic Genius.

Unfortunately, these are all just not competitive enough. I like Mishra, Artificer Prodigy though. It's a great engine with Sensei's Divining Top (Play SDT, put an extra SDT into play; tap both SDTs to draw a card + SDT, replay SDT; rinse repeat. Also ignores Counterspells for all your artifacts since the effect goes on the stack regardless of SDT resolving. This allows you to grab the countered SDT straight from your graveyard. Essentially it reads 1: Draw a card, artifacts cannot be countered.)

[rufus]

Using Feldon to copy Arcum Dagsson or Goblin Welder seems like it could be cute, probably not that great though.

[bruizar]

Using Feldon to copy Arcum Dagsson or Goblin Welder seems like it could be cute, probably not that great though.

I've actually been experimenting with an Arcum list (mono-U and UR with Dack Fayden). I like the subtle interaction of Feldon with Arcum Daggson.
Feldon copy a countered Arcum Daggson, making him haste & artifact.
Arcum Daggson sacrifices itself for Possessed Portal.
Following turn: Feldon reanimates Arcum again. Arcum Daggson sacrifices itself for Spine of Ish-Sah
Following turn: Spine of Ish-Sah sacrifices itself to Possessed Portal, returns to hand. Feldon reanimates Arcum again. Grabs a threat, or something to feed Portal.
Following turn: Spine of Ish-Sah is hardcast or discards itself to Possessed Portal if not enough mana. Feldon reanimates Arcum again. Grabs a threat, or something to feed Portal.

[bruizar]

I'd try something along these lines

ARCUM SLAVER
Bombs 3
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Possessed Portal
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Planeswalkers 3
3x Dack Fayden
Tinkers 5
3x Arcum Dagsson
2x Feldon of the Third Path
Creatures 10
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Baleful Strix
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Disruption 2
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Liquimetal Coating
Draw 4
4x Brainstorm
Permisson 8
2x Pyroblast
3x Force of Will
3x Thoughtseize
Removal 4
3x Lightning Bolt
1x Sudden Shock
Total 39

Land
3x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Mishra’s Factory
1x Academy Ruins
1x Island
Total Land 21

Sideboard:
1 Electrickery
2 Sudden Shock
1 Darksteel Forge or Mycosynth Lattice or another bomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dreadbore
3 Blood Moon

SCD
- Chains of Mephistopheles shuts down Treasure Cruises and Brainstorms. It turns Dack Fayden into +1 Hymn to Tourach. These two reasons warrant its inclusion imo. It could also be replaced for Notion Thief, depending on how you like your curve and if you want to live the dream of blowing out your opponent's treasure cruises or turning Dack Fayden into a Night's Whisper + Hymn to Tourach.

- Vendilion Clique in the graveyard can lock out your opponent's draws with Feldon.

- Baleful Strix is a powerful role-player. It cantrips, defends Dack Fayden, tinkers with Arcum and copies, and defends and provides card advantage with Feldon.

- Snapcaster Mage with Feldon allow you to flashback your value spells such as Pyroblasts and Lightning Bolts.

- Feldon can protect Dack Fayden by throwing a dude in front of Dack. Back Fayden's +1 fuels Feldon.

- Wurmcoil Engine can be copied with Feldon but also tinkered away with Arcum 3 times, grabbing spine. The life gain can be relevant. Not 100% sure about Wurmcoil Engine though.

- Cavern of Souls + Mishra's Factory allow you to cast Arcum Daggson through counters, tinkering the uncounterable artifact creature Mishra's Factory.

- Phyrexian Revoker is there too combat Deathrite Shaman, Sensei's Divining Top, Grindstone, Grim Lavamancer etcetera. Also likes to get tinkered.

- Liquimetal Coating turns Dack Fayden into a thief. It also turns Arcum Daggson into a murderer.

- Sudden Shock is there for Delver of Secrets, but Lightning Bolt is still more versatile hence the 3-1 split.

- Thoughtseize clears the way and provides further safety with Snapcaster Mage.

[rufus]

I'd try something along these lines
..
- Vendilion Clique in the graveyard can lock out your opponent's draws with Feldon.

- Baleful Strix is a powerful role-player. It cantrips, defends Dack Fayden, tinkers with Arcum and copies, and defends and provides card advantage with Feldon.
...


I think playing a bunch of 'enters the battlefield' creatures like Ravenous Rats/Corrupt Court Official might work better. Of course Balthor the Defiled is probably a better fit for that.

[Octopusman]

Glad someone mentioned Trash for Treasure.

Felton in Red kind of reminds me of Red homelands Legenda which I feel is appropriate. Reanimation aside, red had been the next closest color, besides blue, to have control over artifacts. I approve.

[TsumiBand]

I'm not one for screwing up the color wheel as a means to an end, but I fail to see any issue with Feldon.

Everything about it is an aspect of something Red could already do anyway; it can dig artifacts out of the yard, it can play creatures for a significant discount if they are to be exiled/sacrificed at end of turn... Feldon is the half-way point between Sneak Attack and Goblin Welder, and arguably far less easy to abuse barring a multi-card combo. So what is the problem?

This dude is fantastic. Maybe not as potent as the aforementioned cards, but uniquely capable as a one-card reanimator deck. Would love to throw Nicol Bolas at the opponent once a turn every turn, but that's kid shit - clearly it needs to be one of the big hitters, even if it requires a stack trick or something to toss out there (for example, Emrakul - its shuffling trigger is not a replacement effect, it doesn't say "instead", meaning it can be responded to).

In fact, it's kind of a funny follow-up to a Sneak Attack, right - as if it weren't enough to throw a huge beater at the opponent the one time, Feldon would let you attack with a copy of the sacrificed dude again and again. I like it.

If nothing else it will probably find a home in my Sedris EDH deck. Because I will definitely be trying to Nicol Bolas all the faces.

[Barook]

I'm not one for screwing up the color wheel as a means to an end, but I fail to see any issue with Feldon.

Everything about it is an aspect of something Red could already do anyway; it can dig artifacts out of the yard, it can play creatures for a significant discount if they are to be exiled/sacrificed at end of turn... Feldon is the half-way point between Sneak Attack and Goblin Welder, and arguably far less easy to abuse barring a multi-card combo. So what is the problem?

This dude is fantastic. Maybe not as potent as the aforementioned cards, but uniquely capable as a one-card reanimator deck. Would love to throw Nicol Bolas at the opponent once a turn every turn, but that's kid shit - clearly it needs to be one of the big hitters, even if it requires a stack trick or something to toss out there (for example, Emrakul - its shuffling trigger is not a replacement effect, it doesn't say "instead", meaning it can be responded to).

In fact, it's kind of a funny follow-up to a Sneak Attack, right - as if it weren't enough to throw a huge beater at the opponent the one time, Feldon would let you attack with a copy of the sacrificed dude again and again. I like it.

If nothing else it will probably find a home in my Sedris EDH deck. Because I will definitely be trying to Nicol Bolas all the faces.
How about recycling fatties in Big Red?

[Dice_Box]

Glad someone mentioned Trash for Treasure.

Felton in Red kind of reminds me of Red homelands Legenda which I feel is appropriate. Reanimation aside, red had been the next closest color, besides blue, to have control over artifacts. I approve.

I would argue that White, not Red has more control over Artifacts. Red is got at breaking them, not do much controlling them.

[bruizar]

Lion's Eye Diamond totally loves this card if you can give Feldon haste reliably. Hall of the Bandit Lord & Cavern of Souls perhaps.

[Whippoorwill]

New Planeswalker:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B08kJd2CMAA9Qbw.jpg

I'm really liking the -2 ability to make Demons, even if it does cost 5 to cast.

[M+1]

I can't recall having seen such a wall of text on a card since Ice Age. I really don't get why the "Can be your Commander" text is necessary at all. If Commander needed planeswalkers, why not simply allow them, either as a generel rule (with a few additions to the ban list), or with a list of "can-be-your-commander"-approved Planeswalkers?

[Barook]

I can't recall having seen such a wall of text on a card since Ice Age. I really don't get why the "Can be your Commander" text is necessary at all. If Commander needed planeswalkers, why not simply allow them, either as a generel rule (with a few additions to the ban list), or with a list of "can-be-your-commander"-approved Planeswalkers?
How would they sell product otherwise?

He seems indeed sweet, although Nic Fit might rather run the 5 mana Garruk, but who knows. I don't think other decks aren't able to run him, especially since Demon Stompy isn't really a thing.

[Darkenslight]

I can't recall having seen such a wall of text on a card since Ice Age. I really don't get why the "Can be your Commander" text is necessary at all. If Commander needed planeswalkers, why not simply allow them, either as a generel rule (with a few additions to the ban list), or with a list of "can-be-your-commander"-approved Planeswalkers?

That Emblem, though! That's gonna cause a few combo decks in Commander.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

New Planeswalker:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B08kJd2CMAA9Qbw.jpg

I'm really liking the -2 ability to make Demons, even if it does cost 5 to cast.

I was hoping that the non-blue walkers would maybe be legacy playable, at least 1 of them.

As a commander he is probably very strong since you can cast him and make a 5/5 putting 2 threats on the board that the opponent will want to deal with but once he deals with him you can recast him plus commander tax for another demon. So I would look at him as a token factory simply. At some point your opponent will probably not be too interested in killing him however and try to deal with a 5/5 every 2 turns.

As a normal planeswalker in the 100 or 60 I think he is weak.

[Cire]

Green commander plansewalker:

Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury 3GG
Planeswalker
+2 put a 1/1 Elf druid into play that has tap for G
-2 Destroy artifact or enchantment
-6 draw a card for every green creature
{3}

Also. . . maybe a combo for this card?

Reef Worm 3U
When ~ dies puw a 3/3 fish token into play that has "when ~ dies put a 6/6 whale token into play, that has "when ~ dies put a 9/9 kraken token into play.""
0/1

Maybe with recurring nightmare for a really grindy UB deck?

[Quizzlemanizzle]

http://static.starcitygames.com/www/images/article/DualcasterMageSCG20141027.jpeg

This guy looks delicious sideboard card against Brainstorm/Ponder/Treasure Cruise and whatever.

What decks can fit him in? UR Delver? Jund? Goblins? Burn

Burn sideboard seems a given.

Maybe too early but this should be one of the TNN/Council Judgements/Toxic Deluge type card of C14.

[iamajellydonut]

This guy

is kick ass. And he's legal in time for the GP.

[Humphrey]

at that cost its unplayable. And besides TC there is nothing of interest to copy

[Quizzlemanizzle]

at that cost its unplayable. And besides TC there is nothing of interest to copy

Uh?

Brainstorm, Entreat the Angels, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Hymn to Tourach, Treasure Cruise, Ponder, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Counterspell, Thoughtseize, Duress, Infernal Tutor, Ad Nauseam, Ancestral Visions, Fireblast, Chain Lightning, Gitaxian Probe...

There are tons of interesting spells to copy. Treasure Cruise/Brainstorm alone should make him playable.

Not to mention you can copy your own spells too. Drawing 6 plus a 2/2 for RRU1 seems not too shabby.

[Cire]

Maybe in RB? Cabal Therapy and Surgical Extraction might make good targets?

4 Dark Confidant
4 Dualcaster Mage
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Chain Lightning
3 Thought seize
3 Fireblast
2 Duress

4 Cavern of Souls (Human)
16

Idk - just some cards I mashed together off the top of my head.

[Humphrey]

if any of those are really interesting to copy, why nobody plays fork?
CC3 is a lot in legacy, double R makes it worse and a 2/2 body nearly useless

[Quizzlemanizzle]

if any of those are really interesting to copy, why nobody plays fork?
CC3 is a lot in legacy, double R makes it worse and a 2/2 body nearly useless

Being on a body is a huge difference, a 2/2 is not nearly useless. Unlike Fork this guy generates card advantage.

[iamajellydonut]

if any of those are really interesting to copy, why nobody plays fork?

Because Fork doesn't have gams.

[Barook]

Dualcaster Mage is pretty nice and has a good chance of seeing Legacy play. Fireblast (or even a suspended Rift Bolt) into Dualcaster Mage seems decent in a burn deck, although it's hard to say if it isn't a tad bit too expensive for Burn.

Fun fact: You can use it to counter your opponent's Force of Will.

But what the hell have they done with Freyalise? That card is Nissa 1.0 levels of bad.

[H]

First thing I want to just say yes. This guy is definitely not Snapcaster, for all the obvious reasons and I can't figure if this is fringe-playable or more, but this is at the very least interesting. Second, let me just say holy shit, burn. Seriously though, how insane is that UR Delver/Viking Funeral deck going to be?

As a side point, to my Vintage homies, Ancestral + This is the same cost as Snap + Recall, just 1RR instead of 1UU. Of course you have the added "problem" of needing both on the stack at once, but with the way Cruise is going to possibly drive the meta, maybe Recall in the grumper isn't the best place for it? Also, this plus Cruise, obviously better than Snap plus Cruise. This is going to be interesting.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

But what the hell have they done with Freyalise? That card is Nissa 1.0 levels of bad.

No it is not, if it was a littlecheaper I'd jam it into my Elves deck right now, at least in the sideboard.

[Barook]

Entreat the Angels
I like you.

In a format where Brainstorm is more widespread than cancer, he should definitely find some targets. Copying your own TC or opposing TCs is obviously good as well.

Costing one mana more makes him definitely worse than Snapcaster, but you can break even or get a mana advantage when copying an opponent's spell. I can't wait for somebody to copy Ad Nauseam to dig for FoW. :tongue:

[Quizzlemanizzle]

First thing I want to just say yes. This guy is definitely not Snapcaster, for all the obvious reasons and I can't figure if this is fringe-playable or more, but this is at the very least interesting. Second, let me just say holy shit, burn. Seriously though, how insane is that UR Delver/Viking Funeral deck going to be?

As a side point, to my Vintage homies, Ancestral + This is the same cost as Snap + Recall, just 1RR instead of 1UU. Of course you have the added "problem" of needing both on the stack at once, but with the way Cruise is going to possibly drive the meta, maybe Recall in the grumper isn't the best place for it? Also, this plus Cruise, obviously better than Snap plus Cruise. This is going to be interesting.

He could be better than Snapcaster in legacy.

Snapcaster relies on the graveyard, this card does not. Also while being more expensive than Snapcaster you get the spell for free, this is especially powerful when copying opponents spells.

Dualcaster+Treasure Cruise is a lot better than Snapcaster+Treasure Cruise.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Everyone should come to terms with NONE of these planeswalkers being Legacy playable. I realize asking the internet to be reasonable is a losing battle, but none of them are going to make waves in Legacy if Wizards is trying to keep them from making waves in Commander.

And Dualcaster costs :1: too much to be played in Burn. And copying Entreat the Angels with it is a terrible idea...

[Lemnear]

There are tons of interesting spells to copy. Treasure Cruise/Brainstorm alone should make him playable.

People said the same about Spirit of the Labyrinth and I can't see it putting up serious numbers despite being one mana cheaper than this Snapcaster variant.

[Barook]

People said the same about Spirit of the Labyrinth and I can't see it putting up serious numbers despite being one mana cheaper than this Snapcaster variant.
Spirit desperately needed flash. This has flash, so big difference.

Besides, Spirit needs to stay in play to be effective, while this only needs to resolve to get value out of it.

Comparing it with Spirit doesn't make sense.


No it is not, if it was a littlecheaper I'd jam it into my Elves deck right now, at least in the sideboard.
How are here effects better than other green Walkers, especially Garruk, Primal Hunter? Free Llanowar Elves with summoning sickness is pretty meh, especially at 5 mana. At 4 mana, it would be alright, but the Naturalize effect, while nifty, isn't to great, either.

[Cire]

I personally think SOL may be given a second chance now that cruise is out. Before it wasn't playable because it only really affected on card: brainstorm, and it often came out too late to affect BS. However Cruise is slightly slower, and offers another target for SOL.

[Gheizen64]

I think he's right though. A 2/2 body coming down on T3 does basically nothing in this format, where even 1 cmc creatures just avoid it (Delver), or are fatter (Monastery Swiftspear). And fork has never been played in modern magic tbh. Compare him to snapcaster, snapcaster can choose the card he clone, and while he's marginally more costly, it's also way more flexible in what u can choose to play, and when to.
Snapcaster can also be played as a surprise blocker and still use his flashback ability, while this will waste his etb ability. I think snapcaster's a better card. This cost also double red, which while i appreciate in a vacuum, it means it's a bit worse playability wise. In general i fear the conditionality of it will just make it unplayable.
He's decently pushed but the fork effect is extremely unconsistent to be played imho.

[Namida]

I like the card; I just don't know where it goes. Are there any decks right now that are comfortable reaching the point where they would play this to copy their own spells? (Read: What deck wants to intentionally be in a place where you can generate 1RR plus another spell?) Is there a deck that actually plays enough red to support this card but also would want to keep the three mana open to use this against an opponent's spells?

[apple713]

I personally think SOL may be given a second chance now that cruise is out. Before it wasn't playable because it only really affected on card: brainstorm, and it often came out too late to affect BS. However Cruise is slightly slower, and offers another target for SOL.

this times a thousand. everyone is bitching about how amazing treasure cruise is... well in the event of SOL its now a dead card and you are getting hit with 3 damage a turn.


I like the card; I just don't know where it goes.

thats the problem, it doesn't go anywhere. spells that other decks cast don't necessarily benefit you... think about what you would copy

treasure cruise - the only really beneficial card everything else sucks

show and tell
glimpse of nature
ad nauseum
burning wish
brainstorm - 3 mana draw a card?
swords to plowshares what if you are the only one with creatures...
force of will? no this is not an effective way to win a force of will war...

[iamajellydonut]

force of will? no this is not an effective way to win a force of will war...

Why not? 3cc 2/2 Counter target spell. How is that "not an effective way" to win a counter war? It's not like you have to pitch a card to copy it.

This guy is amazing. Does he have an automatic home? No, not really except for maybe a new UR variant. But to say his effect isn't useful? Seriously? This guy's ability is amazing. Yes, if you're playing him for the body, you're going to have a wonky time. But any deck that can be even moderately instant-centric has the ability to abuse the shit out of this.

[Barook]

I personally think SOL may be given a second chance now that cruise is out. Before it wasn't playable because it only really affected on card: brainstorm, and it often came out too late to affect BS. However Cruise is slightly slower, and offers another target for SOL.
D&T people are definitely picking up Spirit now. I'm currently running 3 in the MD and just 4-0'ed a daily event with it. The funny part is that it currently has more impact in more matches than Revoker, hence moving one Revoker to the sideboard for the third Spirit.

If it had flash, it would have been an amazing card, but as it stands, it's just kinda alright in the current meta. Brainstorm --> Vial --> Spirit blowouts are far too rare.

[bruizar]

Dualcaster Mage will be a legacy staple. One of the better applications for this card is that you can resolve your copy of Treasure Cruise before your opponent's Treasure Cruise resolves. This allows you to dig for a Force of Will, which is really, really good. In case you don't find force of will, you still have 3 cards and a 2/2 compared to your opponent's 3 cards.

EOT Fireblast Dualcaster Mage is 10 damage after your first attack. That's a huge life total swing.

I can also see this card ending up in Imperial Painter builds, as a protection spell, an extra defensive Counterspell, or an extra REB/Pyroblast as well as being able to benefit from blue draw spells.

It could also bring new life into Ancestral Visions

[TsumiBand]

Everyone should come to terms with NONE of these planeswalkers being Legacy playable. I realize asking the internet to be reasonable is a losing battle, but none of them are going to make waves in Legacy if Wizards is trying to keep them from making waves in Commander.

And Dualcaster costs :1: too much to be played in Burn. And copying Entreat the Angels with it is a terrible idea...

I don't think the idea is to copy your Entreat the Angels. (It could be, maybe. but I think the point is to have a lulz answer to a big Entreat that can also just be used to copy your Sligh spells and shizz)

I'm not seeing a whole lot of downside to this guy, even at 3 mana. Red's best spells are cheap-as-free a lot of the time anyway; Bolts are cheap, Fireblast is cheap, heck even something dumb like a Shrapnel Blast or Reckless Abandon or whatever is not even the worst thing it could target. Putting a body on it just makes things interesting; it has the potential to be a mono-Red Mystic Snake, since it doesn't require you to control the spell you're copying. I like it.

[apple713]

Why not? 3cc 2/2 Counter target spell. How is that "not an effective way" to win a counter war? It's not like you have to pitch a card to copy it.

This guy is amazing. Does he have an automatic home? No, not really except for maybe a new UR variant. But to say his effect isn't useful? Seriously? This guy's ability is amazing. Yes, if you're playing him for the body, you're going to have a wonky time. But any deck that can be even moderately instant-centric has the ability to abuse the shit out of this.

for three mana, 2 of which MUST be red, you are happy to simply counter a spell? cards like pyroblast and red elemental blast would blow your mind!

what you are proposing is a new deck variant based on reaction. reaction isn't typically something red wants to engage it. red is an aggressive color.

just think about the red decks that exist, he is too expensive and out of place to fit into them.

even if you copy your own spells.... maybe a fireblast at best. for 4 mana you can copy a lightning bolt and get 6 damage in and swing for 2 following.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I do not play Painter's Servant combo.

Having said that... Mono-Red Painter is deep enough in red to hit :r::r: reliably. It can tutor the card with Imperial Recruiter (so it'd probably only use 1 copy...). And worst-case it copies Blast to destroy/counter any target.

Am I doing it right?

[iamajellydonut]

Putting a body on it just makes things interesting; it has the potential to be a mono-Red Mystic Snake, since it doesn't require you to control the spell you're copying. I like it.

Speaking of Mystic Snake, I was actually thinking about a Flashy Punishing RUG. This guy. Punishing Fire. Snapcaster. Mystic Snake. Usual blue stuff. Never do a thing on your own turn.

[iamajellydonut]

just think about the red decks that exist, he is too expensive and out of place to fit into them.

I'm just happy to get a "playable" red creature with flash. Even if it's only eye candy.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I don't think the idea is to copy your Entreat the Angels. (It could be, maybe. but I think the point is to have a lulz answer to a big Entreat that can also just be used to copy your Sligh spells and shizz)
Maybe I don't know things?
If my opponent casts Entreat for X=4, and I summon Dualcaster targeting Entreat, does X=4 or 0?

My earlier response assumed X=0

[apple713]

Maybe I don't know things?
If my opponent casts Entreat for X=4, and I summon Dualcaster targeting Entreat, does X=4 or 0?

you copy the spell so x= whatever they paid. if it said you may cast it without paying its cost then x=0

[iamajellydonut]

Maybe I don't know things?
If my opponent casts Entreat for X=4, and I summon Dualcaster targeting Entreat, does X=4 or 0?

If you copy a spell with X or another variable, it copies that variable.

[bruizar]

Reef Wurm is interesting. If you can convert it's power into damage you could deal 18 damage. Think something along the lines of Pandemonium. Probably results in a crappy combo, but still deceptively lots of power wrapped up in this card.

[Richard Cheese]

Maybe I don't know things?
If my opponent casts Entreat for X=4, and I summon Dualcaster targeting Entreat, does X=4 or 0?

My earlier response assumed X=0

Had the same question and after looking around, I'm pretty sure it's 4, since it's copying the spell as it exists on the stack. FWIW, this also means copying a spell with Storm is pretty pointless since Storm triggers as a spell is cast, and copies aren't cast.

[iamajellydonut]

Reef Wurm is interesting. If you can convert it's power into damage you could deal 18 damage. Think something along the lines of Pandemonium. Probably results in a crappy combo, but still deceptively lots of power wrapped up in this card.

Reef Wurm is really cute, especially the art, but most things don't "die" nowadays and Pandemonium has been crappy Johnny bait for going on sixteen years now.

[apple713]

Reef Wurm is interesting. If you can convert it's power into damage you could deal 18 damage. Think something along the lines of Pandemonium. Probably results in a crappy combo, but still deceptively lots of power wrapped up in this card.

i agree, i think it actually fits nicely with cabal therapy. which would lend itself more towards nic fit than any other deck in the format right now. Its just a good beater really. trying to use it with pandemonium seems difficult and inefficient, especially since it falls short on damage 18 instead of 20.

[iamajellydonut]

Had the same question and after looking around, I'm pretty sure it's 4, since it's copying the spell as it exists on the stack. FWIW, this also means copying a spell with Storm is pretty pointless since Storm triggers as a spell is cast, and copies aren't cast.

Correct. But not being cast also has its advantages. The main one being Counterbalance.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Quizzle I owe you an apology.
Copying Entreat with Dualcaster is, in fact, NOT terrible. :eek:

Still, Dualcaster doesn't fit nicely into any existing decks therefore it can never be played. Now excuse me while I search TCDecks for whatever I'm playing this week. I think it's called Viking something...

[Humphrey]

I like you.

In a format where Brainstorm is more widespread than cancer, he should definitely find some targets. Copying your own TC or opposing TCs is obviously good as well.


Brainstorm gets banned, before this guy gets playable.



For Snapcaster stats (2/1 1R) it would be a very interesting card. As is, as said. Crap

[bruizar]

Reef Wurm is really cute, especially the art, but most things don't "die" nowadays and Pandemonium has been crappy Johnny bait for going on sixteen years now.

Agreed, my point was not so much about the tournament playability of pandemonium, but more to demonstrate an easily overlooked element of reef wurm. Not that I would buy the card, because it's simply not good enough by itself I think.

Dualcaster Mage however, is a solid purchase imo.


i agree, i think it actually fits nicely with cabal therapy. which would lend itself more towards nic fit than any other deck in the format right now. Its just a good beater really. trying to use it with pandemonium seems difficult and inefficient, especially since it falls short on damage 18 instead of 20.

Nic fit seems like the best deck to try it out in a competitive deck

[Richard Cheese]

Correct. But not being cast also has its advantages. The main one being Counterbalance.

I guess, that would probably be more relevant if it wasn't an ETB effect though.

He is a Human though, which was a pretty popular setting for Cavern of Souls at one point.

[iamajellydonut]

I guess, that would probably be more relevant if it wasn't an ETB effect though.

He costs 3cc. That's reliable enough.

[bruizar]

Strategically important is that, in a vacuum Dualcaster Mage is always better than the opponent's spell. 1: Your spell resolves first, 2: Your spell leaves a 2/2 body in addition to the symmetric spell effect.

[Richard Cheese]

He costs 3cc. That's reliable enough.

Eh, between Clique, Entreat, and Council's Judgement it's not like Miracles can't find a 3. I say drop Green and go with Flashy Grixis. Cavern on Humans gets you this guy, Snapcaster, Izzet Staticaster, and Lotion Theif. Now just find a reliable way to get to 7 mana!

[Cire]

I got quoted, and people agreed with me :eek:! wow! I'm just used to posting crappy decklists on spoiler threads that get ignored. . . this is new :tongue:

That said - to repeat something Reef wurm plus reccuring nightmare doesn't seem awful. I mean . . . it is awful since it's too expensive, but it looks much better than Pandemonium.

[phonics]

Brainstorm gets banned, before this guy gets playable.



For Snapcaster stats (2/1 1R) it would be a very interesting card. As is, as said. Crap

It would be beyond broken at 1R.

[rufus]

Twinflame+Dualcaster is pretty nice.

[Star|Scream]

Twinflame+Dualcaster is pretty nice.

I think you just broke the format.

[TsumiBand]

For that matter, Dualcaster on Howl of the Horde is gonna wreck lives! Six copies of Galvanic Blast on the stack, fucker!

[Cire]

Twinflame+Dualcaster is pretty nice.

How do you stack the effects to go infinite with this? I don't think you can without a second twinflame?

[Star|Scream]

Not quite. You can't copy the Twinflame with the copy of Dualcaster Mage.


Why can't you? The original twinflame has not resolved yet. It's a legitimate target, no?

[zulander]

Have a creature in play, cast twinflame, then cast dualcaster with the new copy target dualcaster and go off. You need a creature in play to start the combo.

[rufus]

How do you stack the effects to go infinite with this? I don't think you can without a second twinflame?

I guess you'd have to have a body in play so you can cast twinflame first. Maybe Heat Shimmer is better.

[rufus]

Why can't you? The original twinflame has not resolved yet. It's a legitimate target, no?

Triggered abilities don't go on the stack until a player would receive priority.

[TsumiBand]

How do you stack the effects to go infinite with this? I don't think you can without a second twinflame?

Twinflame targeting any dude
Dualcaster in response to your own Twinflame
Assume helpless opponent
Dualcaster resolves, targets Twinflame
Dualcaster's ability resolves; Twinflame copy goes on top of the stack
Twinflame copy resolves, targets Dualcaster
Twinflame copy resolves; Dualcaster copy targets original Twinflame
and so on.

zomg so good, needs b&

[Star|Scream]

Triggered abilities don't go on the stack until a player would receive priority.

Huh? Read Tsumi's response above.

[Cire]

Wait. . . so

Twin flame/Heat Shimmer --> Target Creature
Cast Dualcaster --> Copy Twin flame/Heat Shimmer --> Target Dual Caster.
Go Infinite?

That doesn't seem bad (if it works). It's a 5 mana combo which means that it deserves some attention. The fact that it is mono red might also be a draw?

[iamajellydonut]

Triggered abilities don't go on the stack until a player would receive priority.

Correct.


Huh? Read Tsumi's response above.

Very nice. And functional.

Unfortunately, it's pretty much another Kiki/Splinter/Twin/Mite that's not Modern legal.

[iamajellydonut]

I think a couple of you are assuming that we're talking about casting the twinflame after this guy is on the battlefield.

We're not.

Without any other context it looked like it. But you guys are right, though it is a really bad combo.

[Barook]

I like Heat Shimmer more, since it grants Haste.

Of course you could combine it with mana dorks to run Twinflame.

Mono Red with a Sol manabase sounds better, though. Manamorphose could help to filter, or Seething Song to power out everything.

Priest of Urabrask and Burning-Tree Emissary might be interesting in that regard. Even if you don't combo, you could power out equipment pretty fast.

[iamajellydonut]

I like Heat Shimmer more, since it grants Haste.

They both grant haste.

[Cire]

How about some weird combo-stompy Shell? (warning really awful decklist coming up)

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
14 Mountains

4 Twin flame
4 Dualcaster
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Heat Shimmer

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide

[TsumiBand]

The problem with Twinflame is that, what would you ever actually want to target besides your combo piece? To target anything else is to cast a terrible burn spell. Maaaaaybe it'd be cute to hit like Keldon Marauders or like... eeeuggghh... Blistering Firecat.... but then you're just playing GetThere.dec, ew.

Whereas Dualcaster works with your stuff, your opponent's stuff, causes your copy to resolve before their original spell, etc etc.

[bruizar]

The problem with Twinflame is that, what would you ever actually want to target besides your combo piece? To target anything else is to cast a terrible burn spell. Maaaaaybe it'd be cute to hit like Keldon Marauders or like... eeeuggghh... Blistering Firecat.... but then you're just playing GetThere.dec, ew.

Whereas Dualcaster works with your stuff, your opponent's stuff, causes your copy to resolve before their original spell, etc etc.

Yes and no. Grindstone's non-combo use is also very limited in imperial painter, yet it is still played. Painter's Servant turns on your REBs and Grindstone, but by itself, it's also pretty darn useless. I agree with what you're saying, but it's a little more nuanced than 'sucks on its own'.

I know this is stretching things, but I would love to brew with Momentary Blink, Snapcaster Mage, Gilded Drake, Dualcaster Mage, Curfew, Saving Grasp and a bunch of Lightning Bolts and counters and aether vials

If you cast Twinflame on a Snapcaster Mage, you could use the SCM token trigger to flashback Twinflame and cast it again, so it could function as + 4 combat damage with a Snapcaster Mage.

[Darkenslight]

How do you stack the effects to go infinite with this? I don't think you can without a second twinflame?

1) Cast Twinflame targeting X creature;
2) Cast Dualcaster;
3) Target Twinflame, targeting Dualcaster;
4) Cycle for a googolplex;
5) Go Splinter Twin on their asses.

[Barook]

Malicious Affliction (http://imgur.com/fMvKsO7) :b::b:
Instant
Morbid-When you cast Malicious Affliction, if a creature died this turn, you may copy Malicious Affliction and may choose a new target for the copy.
Destroy target nonblack creature.

Seems pretty decent.

[iamajellydonut]

target nonblack creature.

:(

[rufus]

I wonder whether there's something better to be had with Cackling Counterpart/Fated Infatuation instead of Heat Shimmer/Twin Flame. For example it opens up the possibility of playing Phyrexian Dreadnought as an alternative game plan.

[Ace/Homebrew]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/63/603/635500257711031040.jpeg

Wizard's attempt to fight Sneak and Show?

Bitter Feud :4::r:
Enchantment
As Bitter Feud enters the battlefield, choose two players.

If a source controlled by one of the chosen players would deal damage to the other chosen player or a permanent that player controls, that source deals double that damage to that player or permanent instead.


How do you win if you resolve this in a 1v1 game??

[iamajellydonut]

It's another Furnace of Rath. Don't get too excited.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Don't get too excited.

No worries, just wanted to talk about something other than Dualcaster Mage.

Interesting land. Doesn't do anything to stop TNN though...

Arcane Lighthouse
Land
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.

:1:, T: Until end of turn, creatures your opponents control lose hexproof and shroud and can't have hexproof or shroud.


Seriously though... How do you win once Bitter Feud is on the table?
It's symmetrical right? Your creatures do double damage to yourself. Mine do double damage to me... Right??

[iamajellydonut]

In other news, I'm kind of liking this art direction. I haven't been able to say that for quite some time.

[rufus]

..
It's symmetrical right? Your creatures do double damage to yourself. Mine do double damage to me... Right??

No, my creatures do double damage to *you*. (The text is pretty awfully written though.)

[Ace/Homebrew]

No, my creatures do double damage to *you*. (The text is pretty awfully written though.)

Oooooooooh! :eek: Wow that is terribly written; Or, I'm very badly at reading. :rolleyes:

[Wilkin]

Malicious Affliction (http://imgur.com/fMvKsO7) :b::b:
Instant
Morbid-When you cast Malicious Affliction, if a creature died this turn, you may copy Malicious Affliction and may choose a new target for the copy.
Destroy target nonblack creature.

Seems pretty decent.

Decent card. LOL, wish it was any creature but then it would be pretty nuts.

Has some potential. Just wondering. So if Morbid does trigger and your opponent counters the spell, the copy still happens right?

[iamajellydonut]

Decent card. LOL, wish it was any creature but then it would be pretty nuts.

Has some potential. Just wondering. So if Morbid does trigger and your opponent counters the spell, the copy still happens right?

Correct.

But I'd say the application of being able to two-for-one is limited. Unless you're relying on one of your own creatures dying, expecting your opponent to have three worthwhile creatures on the battlefield is a bit too unrealistic under most circumstances to make Affliction relevant. Though I do appreciate the card in general.

[apple713]

1) Cast Twinflame targeting X creature;
2) Cast Dualcaster;
3) Target Twinflame, targeting Dualcaster;
4) Cycle for a googolplex;
5) Go Splinter Twin on their asses.

from the way twinflame reads you should be able to choose 0 target creatures, meaning you no not have to have a creature in play upon resolution. so for 5 mana you just win the game... seems fair


107.1c If a rule or ability instructs a player to choose “any number,” that player may choose any positive number or zero, unless something (such as damage or counters) is being divided or distributed among “any number” of players and/or objects. In that case, a nonzero number of players and/or objects must be chosen if possible.

[rufus]

from the way twinflame reads you should be able to choose 0 target creatures, meaning you no not have to have a creature in play upon resolution. so for 5 mana you just win the game... seems fair

Nice catch, I totally missed that.

[apple713]

between cavern of souls and boseiju your combo is uncountable.. but susceptible to removal.

[Zupponn]

So...

City of Traitors
Exile Simian Spirit Guide
Seething Song
Twinflame
Dualcaster Mage
Win?

[apple713]

So...

City of Traitors
Exile Simian Spirit Guide
Seething Song
Twinflame
Dualcaster Mage
Win?

ya, only 5 required cards in opening hand is fairly reasonable T1 victory wouldn't you say?

[bruizar]

With 2 Twinflames and a Dualcaster already in Play you can also win (For 2RR)

Cast Twinflame on Dualcaster Mage
In response Cast Twinflame on DUalcaster Mage
Twinflame Resolves, copies Dualcaster Mage
Dualcaster Mage Copies first Twinflame still on the stack
Win

[UseLess]

Twinflame is a sorcery ;). Last few cards of the spoiler are already much more interesting, would be nice to get a proper red planeswalker as commander, but following the trend of the other three it will probably be meh outside commander/casual.

[Lemnear]

With 2 Twinflames and a Dualcaster already in Play you can also win (For 2RR)

Cast Twinflame on Dualcaster Mage
In response Cast Twinflame on DUalcaster Mage
Twinflame Resolves, copies Dualcaster Mage
Dualcaster Mage Copies first Twinflame still on the stack
Win

There are several combinations possible to create an Army of hasty Dualcaster Mages with Twinflame. I's also funny to think about the interaction with splitter twin on Dualcaster here as you can double up your cantrips until you find the twinflame and use the Splitter twin to copy Twinflame on the Stack to start the loop

[Barook]

from the way twinflame reads you should be able to choose 0 target creatures, meaning you no not have to have a creature in play upon resolution. so for 5 mana you just win the game... seems fair


107.1c If a rule or ability instructs a player to choose “any number,” that player may choose any positive number or zero, unless something (such as damage or counters) is being divided or distributed among “any number” of players and/or objects. In that case, a nonzero number of players and/or objects must be chosen if possible.
Right. It's also confirmed in the Gatherer ruling:


You choose how many targets each spell with a strive ability has and what those targets are as you cast it. It’s legal to cast such a spell with no targets, although this is rarely a good idea. You can’t choose the same target more than once for a single strive spell.

On a different note:

Titania, Protector of Argoth :3::g::g:
Legendary Creature - Elemental
When Titania, Protector of Argoth enters the battlefield, return target land card from your graveyard to the battlefield.
Whenever a land you control is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, put a 5/3 green Elemental creature token onto the battlefield.
5/3

Sucks that she costs 5 mana and dies to Bolt, but the effect is interesting in a format full of fetches and Wastelands. Combines really well with Crop Rotation, KotR and Sylvan Safekeeper.

And the entire black Commander deck has been spoiled.

[Gheizen64]

Malicious affliction seems good. It's a BB instant that destroy one non black creature, or 2 if you have morbid.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Dualcaster mage is solid. Carefully designed, but solid nonetheless. Unstable Obelisk will be fun for my Karn EDH.

On a side note, holy crap is that black decklist good! Hella value!

[iamajellydonut]

On a side note, holy crap is that black decklist good! Hella value!

Am I missing something? Where's the value?

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/news-10282014-commander-2014s-black-decklist-revealed/

[Barook]

Am I missing something? Where's the value?

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/news-10282014-commander-2014s-black-decklist-revealed/
According to Goldfish, its value is 60+$ from old cards, not counting the value of the new cards.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

According to Goldfish, its value is 60+$ from old cards, not counting the value of the new cards.

Maybe online cards but the old cards in the black deck are all low demand cards that are less than a buck except for Jet Medaillon.

[apple713]

According to Goldfish, its value is 60+$ from old cards, not counting the value of the new cards.

it doesn't look like it even has 1 solid card worth anything....i don't keep up with prices all that much but there isn't anything in there played in legacy. just because they give 100 cards worth an avg of .60 doesn't mean its $60. in fact that means its actually worth $0. at least in my head if something isn't worth at least $5, it doesn't get added to a valuation.

[lyracian]

According to Goldfish, its value is 60+$ from old cards, not counting the value of the new cards.
Total Value of 50 cent cards adds up. If you are looking for stuff worth more than $2 not so much...

1x Abyssal Persecutor $5
1x Drana Kalastria Bloodchief $3
1x Grave Titan $7
1x Sol Ring $4
1x Jet Medallion $7
1x Worn Powerstone $3
1x Black Sun's Zenith $3
32x Swamp $4 (according to Goldfish)
Total $36

I do not see Medallion's holding value due to the reprint. I guess it comes down to how much you want the new stuff as those cards will add some value.

[rufus]

Hmm... is there something better than Protean Hulk with Wake the Dead?

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Total Value of 50 cent cards adds up. If you are looking for stuff worth more than $2 not so much...

1x Abyssal Persecutor $5
1x Drana Kalastria Bloodchief $3
1x Grave Titan $7
1x Sol Ring $4
1x Jet Medallion $7
1x Worn Powerstone $3
1x Black Sun's Zenith $3
32x Swamp $4 (according to Goldfish)
Total $36

I do not see Medallion's holding value due to the reprint. I guess it comes down to how much you want the new stuff as those cards will add some value.

Yes all these cards will surely lose at least half their value due to the reprint and since some of the new cards will be the chase cards in the deck (planeswalker + legacy playable cards - Spoils of Blood possibly could reinvigorate Dreadnought+Stifle decks)

In my mind the old cards in the commander deck are worth nothing unless it is something like Damnation or Imperial Recruiter.

[iamajellydonut]

Spoils of Blood possibly could reinvigorate Dreadnought+Stifle decks

Sacrifice Dreadnought.
Put 1/1 black Horror creature token onto battlefield.
???
Profit.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Oh right I thought the X/X part was power or toughness of sacced creatures.

[Sylphnir]

Looking at this decklist I somehow doubt the inclusion of SFM in the white "Forged in Stone" deck now. It would eat like one third of the value alone.

[iamajellydonut]

Looking at this decklist I somehow doubt the inclusion of SFM in the white "Forged in Stone" deck now. It would eat like one third of the value alone.

Keep in mind that precons are historically shitty in terms of reprints. The most valuable reprint that has been seen in a Commander set so far is Garruk Wildspeaker.

wooo

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Keep in mind that precons are historically shitty in terms of reprints. The most valuable reprint that has been seen in a Commander set so far is Garruk Wildspeaker.

wooo

Baleful Strix..

They have to reprint Imperial Recruiter eventually.

[iamajellydonut]

Baleful Strix.

I was thinking actual set reprints.

[Sylphnir]

Random Wurmcoil Engine appears!
This time with fitting tokens:
http://media.wizards.com/2014/images/daily/0032_MTGC14_TOK_EN_HRR%20copy.pnghttp://media.wizards.com/2014/images/daily/0033_MTGC14_TOK_EN_HRR%20copy.png

[iamajellydonut]

Keep in mind that precons are historically shitty in terms of reprints. The most valuable reprint that has been seen in a Commander set so far is Wurmspiralmaschine.

wooo

ftfm

[nedleeds]

Hexmage and Aether Snap and no Dark Depths. Many budget casual tears were shed.

[Cire]

Just wondering . . . can Dualcaster combo with flicker effects?

Cloudshift - target another creature - Dualcaster - copy target Dualcaster - profit off infinite ETB effects? Best I can come up with is an Infinite Life combo with Soul's Attendant and Essence Warden - that's a 5 mana 3 card combo. . . that will buy you time to get the twinflame combo? Genesis Chamber for infnite tokens?

[Richard Cheese]

Hmm... is there something better than Protean Hulk with Wake the Dead?

Worldspine Wurm!!!

[Zombie]

Just wondering . . . can Dualcaster combo with flicker effects?

Cloudshift - target another creature - Dualcaster - copy target Dualcaster - profit off infinite ETB effects? Best I can come up with is an Infinite Life combo with Soul's Attendant and Essence Warden - that's a 5 mana 3 card combo. . . that will buy you time to get the twinflame combo? Genesis Chamber for infnite tokens?

You'd need Ghostly Flicker for that wouldn't you?