AggroControl
08-02-2014, 01:49 AM
I'm starting this as an N&D thread because the list I am developing doesn't fit into the mid-range Jund discussion in the Jund thread in Proven.
What I'm looking for is a more proactive aggro version of Jund that couples straight up aggro with card advantage to force the opponent out of the Sumo ring by turn 4 or 5. To get that effect I am using a Sligh-ish curve with a few big finishers to lock things down at the end.
This is the list at the moment with a few obvious modifications when I get out of testing mode with the list.
Jund Aggro Control
Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Sprouting Thrinax
4x Bloodbraid Elf
Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Abrupt Decay
Draw/Selection
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
Lands
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Bayou
3x Badlands
1x Forest
1x Swamp
Sideboard
3x Extirpate
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Innocent Blood
The list curves almost perfectly at this point with 15 1cc spells and 16 2cc spells. The 1cc spells are all best in class for what they do. 11 of the 2cc spells are bombs that can win the game if they are allowed to resolve, particularly after the 1cc that preceded them. Abrupt Decay is the best removal in Legacy at this point. The Sylvan Library is a major source of card advantage when it lands and makes turn 3 the critical turn of the game when it is in the opening hand. The list has so many broken turn 1, 2, 3 sequences against most opponents that it's unusual for a player not to be back on his heels as the critical turn 4 approaches.
The weakest card in the list at this point is the Sprouting Thrinax, which is a placeholder for Liliana of the Veil. I wanted to try out a hyper aggro approach before I put Liliana in. My meta is heavy in Liliana and Abrupt Decay and I wanted to see how the sprouts did against those common solutions. The answer after early testing is that the sprouts hold their own and beat both of those cards but Liliana is stronger against the meta as a whole. One more week of testing and I'll make the switch. One big thing in the sprouts favor is that they make trades on the attack a favorable thing, since they leave blockers behind after the dust has cleared. I'll try Cabal Therapy with them next week although I can't see how replacing Thoughtseize is going to be a net positive. The meta is so target rich with bombs early on that a T1 Thoughtseize never seems like a bad play.
I played the list tonight and went 3-1 with it against good opposition.
Round 1: Death and Taxes
Lost 1-2 winning the middle game to his bad mana draw and a wasteland hitting his Rishadan Port. I never felt fully in the match because what D&T tries to do is very hostile to any opposing aggro theme that involves creatures. My sideboard had no good answers other than Pithing Needle for his Mother of Runes and he didn't have a really hard time getting rid of those. Just a bad matchup and I probably would have lost 0-2 if he hadn't kept 2 land with an Aether Vial game 2. Killed the Vial with Abrupt Decay and then wasted the port and it was all over.
Round 2: Black Aggro Control
Won 2-0 against Smallpox, Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach, Liliana of the Veil, etc. The list was mostly creatureless with just Mishra's and Nether Spirit and the reductionism he was trying to make happen played into my hands because I had better cheap spells than he did. Liliana of the Veil got rid of my Deathrite Shaman only to see the Sprouting Thrinax land in front of her the next turn and spoil things.
Round 3: Painter's Servant
Won 2-1 against Goblin Welder, Painter's Servant, Grindstone, etc. Lost the first game pretty decisively as he went off turn 3 and I scooped. Tuned in REB, Pyroblasts to stop Intuition, Grafdigger's Cage to stop graveyard shenanigans and Pithing Needle on Grindstone. The second game I Thoughtseized Intuition turn 1 and then drew both cage and needle and things went over very quickly in my favor. He scooped when I resolved a goyf and he realized he had no answers inside the clock it presented. Third game he dropped artifact land, Mox Opal and Lion's Eye Diamond and put out 2 Grindstone's on turn 1. I was holding a bolt and an Abrupt Decay but I thought there was a good chance he would go off turn 2 and deck me. I dropped a Badlands and figured I was on borrowed time because if he dropped Painter's Servant he'd just be able to wait me out and I'd have to forgo any kind of clock until he had enough mana to activate both Grindstones at the same time. He was just a land short at that point. Sure enough, he dropped the Painter's Servant on turn 2 but without the second land and then he made the mistake of sacing the LED to try to win and in response to his activation of a Grindstone I bolted the Painter's Servant. I wasted his artifact land and he never got back to 3 mana after that. The aggro took him down pretty quickly at that point and two goyfs finished things off.
Round 4: BUG Control
Won 2-1 against Deathrite Shaman, True-name Nemesis, Liliana of the Veil, etc. Lost game 1 to a slow beat down from TNN. He had other things going but I Abrupt Decay'd a DRS and bolted a Creeping Tarpit and it took him about 8 or 9 turns to finish me off. Game 2 I tuned in REB and Pyroblasts for Brainstorm, FoW and of course TNN. I brought in Innocent Blood for TNN and because I knew he had a lower creature count than my 18. He kept a 5 land hand with 2 Brainstorms and 3 fetches and I destroyed him with a Turn 1 Thoughtseize on the play. I waited on the Hymn in my opening hand until turn 4 because he was still holding the other Brainstorm and a fistful of land, instead putting out a stream of creatures and eventually I overwhelmed him. The turn 4 Hymn hit an Abrupt Decay and that was a key in the beatdown. The sequence that made him scoop was a BBE into a goyf with TNN sitting on the other side of the table tapped. I got the 3 in to get him down low and he sat still his next turn with the goyf at more than lethal against him and me at 8 life. I cast Innocent Blood and he scooped at that point. Game 3 he retuned bringing in several more cards from his sideboard saying he thought he had overtuned in the second game. I dropped Sensei's Divining Top turn 1 and then lived through his Hymn on turn 2, he hit one of my two Hymns and another card and was happy with the result. Then I drew another Hymn and cast one of them on turn 2, hitting two True-name Nemesis (! very lucky result and a key in the win). Turn 3 he dropped Liliana and we both discarded with me dropping a Deathrite Shaman in the graveyard to his land. I Hymned him on my turn 3 and left mana open for the top and then just ground him down from there. I found Abrupt Decay and did Liliana in and then 3 Dark Confidants in a row. The card advantage from Bob and Top was too much for him to overcome and I rolled over him after that.
All things considered I was pretty happy with how the list performed although it was just a small shop tourney. Sensei's Divining Top and Bob were a killer combo and Top and BBE happened once also, with me avoiding a useless Thoughtseize in favor of a very useful Tarmogoyf. Deathrite Shaman performed the role of soaking up creature removal all night. I think I actually activated a DRS only a few times overall. Mostly he was removed right after I dropped him. Bob stuck most of the time though. Very few lists have the removal to kill DRS on turn 1 and then also get the thing that follows him on turn 2 or 3. Goyf was goyf and finished several games for me. Thoughtseize and Hymn were wrecking people all night. The only matchup where I didn't appreciate what the discard gave me was D&T and that's because of the nature of the list, with a low mana requirement and only a few cards that are so good you have to take them if you have the opportunity. I didn't get a chance to seize a vial out of his hand on the play and really that's the only card in the list that has the kind of value that Thoughtseize requires.
As mentioned above the Sprouting Thrinax will become Liliana of the Veil after I see the list in action again next week. The sprouts have value but not enough to keep one of the top 5 cards in the format out of the list. I will also find a way to make some space in the sideboard for mass creature removal. I felt dead against D&T and that's too common a list to allow it to be a DoA match. I think Drown in Sorrow needs to be in the sideboard, probably in place of the Extirpates. The Engineered Explosives need to stay in for Miracles and all of the other sideboard cards were key in the matches tonight. I went 1-3 in game 1's and then 6-1 after that and the sideboard bombs really helped in that result.
What I'm looking for is a more proactive aggro version of Jund that couples straight up aggro with card advantage to force the opponent out of the Sumo ring by turn 4 or 5. To get that effect I am using a Sligh-ish curve with a few big finishers to lock things down at the end.
This is the list at the moment with a few obvious modifications when I get out of testing mode with the list.
Jund Aggro Control
Creatures
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Sprouting Thrinax
4x Bloodbraid Elf
Disruption
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
Removal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Abrupt Decay
Draw/Selection
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library
Lands
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Bayou
3x Badlands
1x Forest
1x Swamp
Sideboard
3x Extirpate
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Explosives
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Innocent Blood
The list curves almost perfectly at this point with 15 1cc spells and 16 2cc spells. The 1cc spells are all best in class for what they do. 11 of the 2cc spells are bombs that can win the game if they are allowed to resolve, particularly after the 1cc that preceded them. Abrupt Decay is the best removal in Legacy at this point. The Sylvan Library is a major source of card advantage when it lands and makes turn 3 the critical turn of the game when it is in the opening hand. The list has so many broken turn 1, 2, 3 sequences against most opponents that it's unusual for a player not to be back on his heels as the critical turn 4 approaches.
The weakest card in the list at this point is the Sprouting Thrinax, which is a placeholder for Liliana of the Veil. I wanted to try out a hyper aggro approach before I put Liliana in. My meta is heavy in Liliana and Abrupt Decay and I wanted to see how the sprouts did against those common solutions. The answer after early testing is that the sprouts hold their own and beat both of those cards but Liliana is stronger against the meta as a whole. One more week of testing and I'll make the switch. One big thing in the sprouts favor is that they make trades on the attack a favorable thing, since they leave blockers behind after the dust has cleared. I'll try Cabal Therapy with them next week although I can't see how replacing Thoughtseize is going to be a net positive. The meta is so target rich with bombs early on that a T1 Thoughtseize never seems like a bad play.
I played the list tonight and went 3-1 with it against good opposition.
Round 1: Death and Taxes
Lost 1-2 winning the middle game to his bad mana draw and a wasteland hitting his Rishadan Port. I never felt fully in the match because what D&T tries to do is very hostile to any opposing aggro theme that involves creatures. My sideboard had no good answers other than Pithing Needle for his Mother of Runes and he didn't have a really hard time getting rid of those. Just a bad matchup and I probably would have lost 0-2 if he hadn't kept 2 land with an Aether Vial game 2. Killed the Vial with Abrupt Decay and then wasted the port and it was all over.
Round 2: Black Aggro Control
Won 2-0 against Smallpox, Wasteland, Hymn to Tourach, Liliana of the Veil, etc. The list was mostly creatureless with just Mishra's and Nether Spirit and the reductionism he was trying to make happen played into my hands because I had better cheap spells than he did. Liliana of the Veil got rid of my Deathrite Shaman only to see the Sprouting Thrinax land in front of her the next turn and spoil things.
Round 3: Painter's Servant
Won 2-1 against Goblin Welder, Painter's Servant, Grindstone, etc. Lost the first game pretty decisively as he went off turn 3 and I scooped. Tuned in REB, Pyroblasts to stop Intuition, Grafdigger's Cage to stop graveyard shenanigans and Pithing Needle on Grindstone. The second game I Thoughtseized Intuition turn 1 and then drew both cage and needle and things went over very quickly in my favor. He scooped when I resolved a goyf and he realized he had no answers inside the clock it presented. Third game he dropped artifact land, Mox Opal and Lion's Eye Diamond and put out 2 Grindstone's on turn 1. I was holding a bolt and an Abrupt Decay but I thought there was a good chance he would go off turn 2 and deck me. I dropped a Badlands and figured I was on borrowed time because if he dropped Painter's Servant he'd just be able to wait me out and I'd have to forgo any kind of clock until he had enough mana to activate both Grindstones at the same time. He was just a land short at that point. Sure enough, he dropped the Painter's Servant on turn 2 but without the second land and then he made the mistake of sacing the LED to try to win and in response to his activation of a Grindstone I bolted the Painter's Servant. I wasted his artifact land and he never got back to 3 mana after that. The aggro took him down pretty quickly at that point and two goyfs finished things off.
Round 4: BUG Control
Won 2-1 against Deathrite Shaman, True-name Nemesis, Liliana of the Veil, etc. Lost game 1 to a slow beat down from TNN. He had other things going but I Abrupt Decay'd a DRS and bolted a Creeping Tarpit and it took him about 8 or 9 turns to finish me off. Game 2 I tuned in REB and Pyroblasts for Brainstorm, FoW and of course TNN. I brought in Innocent Blood for TNN and because I knew he had a lower creature count than my 18. He kept a 5 land hand with 2 Brainstorms and 3 fetches and I destroyed him with a Turn 1 Thoughtseize on the play. I waited on the Hymn in my opening hand until turn 4 because he was still holding the other Brainstorm and a fistful of land, instead putting out a stream of creatures and eventually I overwhelmed him. The turn 4 Hymn hit an Abrupt Decay and that was a key in the beatdown. The sequence that made him scoop was a BBE into a goyf with TNN sitting on the other side of the table tapped. I got the 3 in to get him down low and he sat still his next turn with the goyf at more than lethal against him and me at 8 life. I cast Innocent Blood and he scooped at that point. Game 3 he retuned bringing in several more cards from his sideboard saying he thought he had overtuned in the second game. I dropped Sensei's Divining Top turn 1 and then lived through his Hymn on turn 2, he hit one of my two Hymns and another card and was happy with the result. Then I drew another Hymn and cast one of them on turn 2, hitting two True-name Nemesis (! very lucky result and a key in the win). Turn 3 he dropped Liliana and we both discarded with me dropping a Deathrite Shaman in the graveyard to his land. I Hymned him on my turn 3 and left mana open for the top and then just ground him down from there. I found Abrupt Decay and did Liliana in and then 3 Dark Confidants in a row. The card advantage from Bob and Top was too much for him to overcome and I rolled over him after that.
All things considered I was pretty happy with how the list performed although it was just a small shop tourney. Sensei's Divining Top and Bob were a killer combo and Top and BBE happened once also, with me avoiding a useless Thoughtseize in favor of a very useful Tarmogoyf. Deathrite Shaman performed the role of soaking up creature removal all night. I think I actually activated a DRS only a few times overall. Mostly he was removed right after I dropped him. Bob stuck most of the time though. Very few lists have the removal to kill DRS on turn 1 and then also get the thing that follows him on turn 2 or 3. Goyf was goyf and finished several games for me. Thoughtseize and Hymn were wrecking people all night. The only matchup where I didn't appreciate what the discard gave me was D&T and that's because of the nature of the list, with a low mana requirement and only a few cards that are so good you have to take them if you have the opportunity. I didn't get a chance to seize a vial out of his hand on the play and really that's the only card in the list that has the kind of value that Thoughtseize requires.
As mentioned above the Sprouting Thrinax will become Liliana of the Veil after I see the list in action again next week. The sprouts have value but not enough to keep one of the top 5 cards in the format out of the list. I will also find a way to make some space in the sideboard for mass creature removal. I felt dead against D&T and that's too common a list to allow it to be a DoA match. I think Drown in Sorrow needs to be in the sideboard, probably in place of the Extirpates. The Engineered Explosives need to stay in for Miracles and all of the other sideboard cards were key in the matches tonight. I went 1-3 in game 1's and then 6-1 after that and the sideboard bombs really helped in that result.