[Primer] Nic Feat. 8Post

[Fatal]

Nic Feat. 8Post Primer

Update 2016-01-24

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=247534&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=265166&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=397688&type=card
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=49050&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=397726&type=cardhttp://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=397905&type=card

1. Genesis

Everyone who's interesting Legacy enough, know both decks:
- Nic Fit - the BG/X control deck with Green Sun's Zenith single bullets, Basics and Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy engine -Thread on TheSource (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control))

- 12Post - U/G deck which running Eldrazi's, Primeval Titan and Show and Tell engine which can cheat one of them to play. Titan lead to Eye of Ugin and more Cloudpost / Vesuva (copies Cloudpost or Glimmerpost when life is matter) - Thread on TheSource (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi)

Both decks have same aim - which is quite unique in Legacy - Ramp to over cost bombs (over 3/4 CMC which is standard for Legacy late game) which can't be handled by normal Legacy Tools - Grave Titan or hardcasting Emrakuls.

The aim which I hope to achive - hybrid which cover both deck weakness.

Nic Fit weakness - This deck mostly control non-land, non-plainswalker permanents by Pernicous Deed - which is all star there, problem starts when opposite deck have Basic lands (Nic Fit advantage from Explorer ramp helps also opponent) and can handle game-ending bombs from Nic Fit ( for example Grave Titan) - read - mostly Miracles. The other weak leg is all S&T MU - when the bombs can't be destroyed by Pernicious Deed/Abrupt Decay's - Eldrazi's from S&T.

Nic Fit advantage - Explosiveness - fundamental turn can clean table and drop bomb, have a lot of removal tools, basic gives protection from tempo decks, fetching them can dodge soft counters which give way to victory.

12Post weakness - Wasteland, Tempo, Counters - Delvers decks, Blood Moon decks & REB/Pyroblast for S&T, also aggro - without real removal (only bounce) you can survive too long that's why most of them pack Glacial Chasm, or Moment's Peace.

12Post advantage - Best almost unstoppable game end - Hardcasting Eldrazi which can be researched by Eye of Ugin.


<--Early game---------------------------Middle game --------------------------------End game------>
<-----------------|------------Nic Fit best time-------------------|-------------------------------------->
<----|--12Post by S&T--|-----------------------------------------|-------------12Post by lands----|->
<------------|----------------Nic Feat 8Post Hybrid best time--------------------------------------|--->

Aim is to fill gap by Nic Fit tools which has 12Cloudpost between S&T and normal mana casting.

The biggest task to achieve was manabase - mixing fetchlands, Cloudpost (colorless), duals and basics - now its very stable but still require to foreseeing next turns.

2. Meta choice

First idea in for this deck was after Terminus get real thing in 2012 - Miracles - this deck is one of the best, still very good positioned in meta. Tested this deck in dozens of game (in real and by Cockatrice). I played with it on GPT in 2012 and get a slot (advantage over standard Nic Fit decks, and Miracles gives an edge to win). It's very well positioned vs middle-range decks thanks to massive card advantage.

When to not pick it - Fast combo (TES/ANT/Belcher), Burn - weak point for both decks - nothing more to said - discard isn't enough, that's what should cover SB.

3. Decklist Card selection - 2015-12-11

Here is actual decklist which is optimal:

4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Karn Liberated
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Eternal Witness
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
//sb
2 Memoricide
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg


Wurmcoil is good as 1-of vs BUG.

Lets dispatch deck on engines:

Ramping Engines:

Veteran Explorer - Ramping, suffling, chumping. You can read about it in Nic Fit. Important thing is also that it stabilize your starting mana. Interesting thing - It doesn't work under Rest in Peace, and Leyline of the Void.

Cabal Therapy - to pair with Veteran Explorer - sacrifice engine - one of the best 1 mana discard ever exist, knowing what to name is a key to victory. Funny fact - What card would you name beeing on play vs random opponent G1 ? Answer is - "Brainstorm" - its most popular card ever played (almost 50% of decks), more over its one of the card which would mess up after you flashback therapy.

Phyrexian Tower - it's too good to not running it in this engine - part of sacrifice engine - It can also save creatures from Exile which sometimes matter, there is also a infinity turn combo with Eye of Ugin.

Primeval Titan - 1 card engine - searching missing lands to cast /or search bombs is mostly enough. It can also search for glimmerpost when you need it. Even after StP its just 1-for-3 card. Mostly game winning. A lot of decks (not running white) can't mostly deal with resolved Titan.

Solemn Simulacrum - a lot of people ask me why - answer is easy - its best 4 cmc colorless ramp which can easy stabilize missing color, drawing card, fuel for therapy, and abrupt decay proof.

Wood Elves - same reason as Solemn - not so strong but can be searched by Green Sun's Zenith.

Removal package:

Pernicious Deed - It's all star removal in Legacy - it's clean all non-land (but including manlands !), non-plainswalker permanents - most time it would be for 3 and less to clear opponent board. Once I killed opponent Emrakul from Sneak Attack - quite epic. Important to remember - it also kills Manlands which Decay can't.

Abrupt Decay - It is an upgrade from first lists which was using Innocent Blood (can also trigger Veteran Explorer) - cheap uncounterable removal which can also hit Liliana of the veil, or Blood Moon - is always good to see.

Karn Librated - On early versions it was All is Dust - but I switched to Karn since it cost the same, and can be very good vs slow and grindy matchups. It's just much better Liliana - can exile what you want, and can cut opponent hand - must counter for all controls.

Support

Sensei's Divining Top - with all that mana its very good card to select discard/ramp from bombs. Its important to deck running proper amount of shuffle effects - this deck run quite a lot - 20 of them is enough to shuffle each turn. It can also works well with Pernicious Deed cleaning.

Green Sun's Zenith - it can be anything - from Explorer ramp, over Wood Elves Ramp to Titan game ending - opens also a way to more single bullets sideboard cards selection.

Eternal Witness - 1-of under GSZ is very good. First versions run 2-of but after printing Deathrite Shaman it's power is much more situational. Mostly used vs opponent wasteland on Eye of Ugin to slow down Eldrazi's.

Game ending bombs

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn -Extra turn (Infinity turns loop with Eye of Ugin), Flying, Anihilator 6, protection from Spells - enough to end game.

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth - After reach 6 mana and playing Titan (Eye of Ugin + Cloudpost) its enough mana to play it. Drawing 4 cards is when casting so only stifle/trickbind/voidslime can stop it

Both Eldrazi shuffle on trigger after goes to GY which can be very handly vs Painter's Servant/grindstone mill.


Manabase

E - 26 lands

1 doesn't give mana (Eye of Ugin)
9 doesn't give color mana (Cloudposts, Glimmerpost, Tower - it can bring black but only conditionally)
1 doesn't give proper mana (support Karakas vs S&T targets, searched by Titan)

6 basics (4 Forests, 2 Swamps)
4 Duals
5 fetchlands (1 can search only dual/forest)

so its only 15 lands that produce colored mana - a lot of time you will start with only one color - all ramp, and support will stabilize it and you will find second one. Green is the most important color here - it lead to all ramp and wincons.

SB will be decribed in part 6. Weak sides- building SB.

4. How to play this deck

Aim to win
is to ramp to 6-7 mana and play Pimeval Titan or Green Sun's Zenith for Primeval Titan,
then depends on situation:
1) You are on low life and opponent deck can't handle Titan - search Glimmerposts then repeat process
2) Opponent can handle Titan (StP/Terminus) - search Eye of Ugin for game ending bomb
3) Opponent develop Legendary thread (via S&T/ Renimation) - search for Karakas

This to start this process you need to ramp.

Ramping strategy:

Early game - Veteran Explorer engine ramp, control board with removal and discard - very important to name proper cards from Cabal Therapy.

Middle game - Solemn ramp, Elves - control, and card advantage with quality achieve by SDT and shuffle effects.

Late game - game winning process

Infinity turns loop:

Need Eye of Ugin and 13-20 mana:

1.Search for Emrakul EOT (to dodge discard)
2. Play Emrakul (cost 13 mana thanks to Eye) take extra turn
3. Attack and sacrifice(Phyrexian Tower)/bounce(Karakas) Emrakul

You can loop it in one turn with 20 mana, you can separate it on two turns (7 search, 13 cast).

Mana curve scenerios connected with actions:

Vet scenerio (actions) / Cloudpost scenerio (actions)
Turn 1 - 1 mana(Cabal Therapy, SDT) colored / colorless (Cloudpost tapped)
Turn 2 - 2 colored (GSZ for Vet, or Vet, sculpt hand, removal etc) / 3 colorless (SDT, 2nd Cloudpost)
Turn 3 - 5 colored (Solemn/Wooded Elves/Pernicous Deed) / 4 colorless and 1 color / 6 colorless (Solemn)
Turn 4 - 6 colored (Titan) / 6 colorless and 1 colored (GSZ for Titan)
Turn 5 - 6 colored and 4 colorless(Titan / Eldrazi cast/search/Karn/Deed) / 10 colorless and 2 colored (Titan / Eldrazi cast/search/Karn/Deed)
Turn 6 - 6 colored and 12 colorless(Eldrazi search /cast) / 20 colorless and 2 colored (Eldrazi search /cast) - here game mostly ends.

How to dodge swords to plowshares:
StP and all removal removal can be blank completely,
Just have sacrifice outlet first then play Veteran Explorer and with holding priority sacrifice it.

Important to gain access to both mana and ramp optimal. Cloudpost will give you a lot of mana but it comes to play tapped - remember about it.

For all Wastelands decks - keep Eye on hand if you draw it naturally (even if they running hymn's), if they destory Eye game isn't end - you still can bring it back with Eternal Witness, or naturally draw Eldrazi which isnt hard with SDT and many shuffle effects.

5. Matchups

Miracles
Very favorable pre and post board for Hybrid, cards which Miracles have to counter: P.Deed, GSZ, Titans, Therapies, SDT, even after SB when opponent has splashed Blood Moon you still can handle it very easy with Abrupt Decay (same with Counterbalance), this deck is developed to win vs slow controls. Only real thread is Venser with Karakas(need to be killed by Deed/Hero's Downfall).
You just put lands, don't rush, save GSZ for Titans, blow up counterbalance (Terminus can counter Titan) with Decay, and ramp with normal drawing cards, attack life total, use Cabal Therapy to clean up his hand. Then just fetch more Cloudposts via Titan and win via Eye of Ugin. Only way you lose the game is early Entreat the Angels with Deed countered - its not to often.
Use Hero's Downfall vs Jace.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_10515.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_225618.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_225811.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_9665X.cor

Death Blade
Harder them Miracles but still Favorable pre and post board thanks to Pernicious Deed and Abrupt Decay - use Cabal Therapy to clean up equipment - specially sword of fire/ice or Feast and Famine. Discard can be painful specially Clique - use SDT to hide key cards and Abrupt Decay to kill flying creatures. Chump attacks, as long as game will long your chances will growth, until you resolve first titan.

Replays (Cockatrice):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_61737.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_62029.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_62389.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_30830.cor


RUG Delver (aka Canadian Threshold)
Matchup very dependent on draw - RUG delver is very tied matchup, mostly stifle can mess up, but can be overplayed by discard. Resolved Titan/Wurmcoil is a win for you. Use basics to ramp and dodge wastelands. After you ramp to 6 mana its game. Try to dodge soft counters. Removal is all star here with no clock you win over time. MVP - resolved trigger from Explorer and Titans/Wurmcoils and Removal.


BUG Delver(aka Team America)
Similar to RUG but instead of Stifle discard is involved - SDT will be one of the MVP resolved Explorer can seal ground, any resolved Titan/Wurmcoil ends the game. Favorable matchup.

UWR Delver (aka Patriot)
Almost same as RUG Delver - but slower - easier for Hybrid. Equips can be discarded by Therapy. Still favorable easier then RUG.

Shadless BUG
Favorable - only counters and discard matters - Force of Will can stop Titans/GSZ other cards aren't such a problem. Sometimes they just draw too many wastelands with goyfs but you still can react with removal, and chumping with Veteran to victory.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_86672.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_86863.cor

Death & Taxes
Depends on build (Mangara can be trouble) but mostly removal can wipe all board with Vial included. Dodge StP with Explorer (its very important), use Abrupt on Revoker needling Deed, clean table, develop bomb - win. Favorable

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_11293.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_11494.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_11755.cor

Merfolks
Favorable - Explorer seal the ground until you sculpt his hand (Force of Will is only real answer) and resolve Deed to clean up, and Titan to win.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_11132.cor

Elves
Unfavorable matchup - You need to draw a lot of removal to stop them to achieve critical mass, if you develop p. Deed and use it - you mostly win. Its mostly too late - look out with Veteran which helps them also. First aim to discard is Natural Order. Glacial Chasm with 4 Crops improve this matchup a lot. Keep hand with enough ramp + Crop to fetch chasm in critical turn. Bombs will come from top. After you get enough mana Emrakul loop will get you a win. Use early discard to took out Natural Order or Glimpse.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_30572.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_59854.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_62737.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_63072.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_63222.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_13255.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_13378.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_13738.cor

Imperial Painter
Very favorable matchup pre and after SB - they can't combo, only chance is to close you on mana - which is quite hard with so many ramp. Moon can be killed by Abrupt Decay. to unlock your ramp.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_37632.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_38143.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_38313.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_38524.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_38729.cor

Sneak Attack
If pilot know how to play it can be unfavorable pre board, and tied after. Be prepared for Moon effects, and remove Sneak Attack as soon you can. Real thread is Sneak Attack and Emrakul, S&T is just 1 mana ramp for them, unless their mess up and play S&T on single thread which mostly lead to their lose. If you resolve Memoricide and you have active Karakas proper answer is Emrakul, note that you need backup plan vs needle/moon effect vs your Karakas.


ANT/TES
Unfavorable - your only way is to discard his hand and attack as fast as you can - G1 is very unfavorable, sometimes you can overplayed with Deed some Empty the Warrens, or clean with Deed some artifacts, use Therapy vs key cards (LED/IT/Burning Wish).

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_9621.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_9835.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_9992.cor

Reanimator
Unfavorable preboard / tied afterboard - searchable karakas can be very handy here

Dredge
Unfavorable preboard / tied afterboard - searchable Bojuka Bog can be very handy here

12Post
Tied - all depends on how many cloudposts he put to play and version. Important note scrupt their hand with therapies, and use their Post as bump to cast your bombs. It's very important to have after SB Crop rotations, Memoricide also helps here (Sculpt Emmy, then Ulamog and at the end Kozilek if they running it). Key factor is EOT Rorations + Bomb like Eldrazi/Karn/Titan. Karn is probably MVP in this MU along with discard. Keep few Deeds vs Needle, Candelabra and other tools. Note that you still can blow up Eldrazi with it.

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_171739X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_171840X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_171980X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_172331X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_172413X.cor

Burn
Unfavorable - one card - price of progress, play around them, use discard and removal to survive. Never board out removal. Brind Memoricide against. Look out on your lands on beginning, before you clean his hand.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_105914.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_106055.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_106248.cor

Lands
Favorable - 6 basic can screw their control plan, after you resolve Titan its walk in the park. Look out for their combo from Dark Depths/Thespian - Crop rotation to Karakas will be your counterpunch to it.


Aggro Loam
Tied - Knight of the Reliquary and recursion wasteland can be very nasty - fetch basics, Veteran Engine with Titan ending is best way to deal with Aggro Loam. Easier after SB.

Junk
depends on build if equip heavy/lingering souls - favorable, if Knight of the Reliquary build - Tied, discard can be painful, use proper card selection with SDT.

Maverick
- Favorable, similar as Junk but without discard - Pernicous Deed totally change this matchup. Look out for early Knight of the Reliquary which can mess up with lands. Also have in mind DD combo.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_9315X.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_9523X.cor

Jund
Favorable - Pernicious Deed wipe all board except Liliana - which can be Decay'ed. Never wait for Liliana if you have ticking Dark Confidant as target with Abrupt Decay (same in Junk).

Nic Fit
Very Favorable - you can't lose - they don't have answer for game ending, we can easily answer their (with Pernicous Deed) board in Bojuka Bog to Recurring Nightmare/punishing fire engine if they running it.

Goblins
Unfavorable since Krenko - very depends how fast you can develop deed, and how many wastelands they draw. You can seal ground with veteran but they also gain advantage by it.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_86092.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_86182.cor

MUD
Favorable MU - Pernicous Deed and Decay is very important - Killing early Metalworker, or Revoker needling Deed is the most important. Chump, fetch lands play titan - win.

Pox
Favorable MU - Veteran Explorer totally change this matchup. Only real thread is Liliana which can be decayed. All ramp react as a counterpunch vs Pox.

Affinity
Favorable MU - Pernicous Deed is really devestating here

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_6799.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_6880.cor

Dark Depths Combo B/G
Unfavorable MU like most Loam based decks, anyway Karakas MD helps here, also Glimmer life gain is more important then ever, anyway G1 isn't easy like vs most combo

Replays for Cockatrice:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_57478.cor
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107457577/replay_57739.cor

6. Weak sides - building SB

Actually - 2015-10-21 running this package to blind meta:


2 Memoricide
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg


Hero's Downfall is in testing, actually not bad.

Let's group them to packages against most strategies:

Anti-combo engine (storm):
2 Duress
2 Memoricide
4 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Gaddock Teeg

It's important to diverse your disruption plan so you can attack their plans from diffrent angles. This package have 3 ways to disrupt storm plan:
- Discard - your main plan
- Exctracting important part of the combo - your long way to vicotry (turn 3+)
- Pernament hate - Spheres and Gaddock Teeg from GSZ
- Bojuka to closing PIF route so discard will be more useful.

cards to board out:
- You can easy board out all decay's, some number of deeds should stay against EtW plan, and Dark Cofidant boost which is again quite popular.
- Eldrazi's also can be sideout titans are enough, with glimmerposts
- Karns
- Eye of Ugin
- Next would be some Titans/Vets. DON'T side out E.Witness.

1) Don't side out Eternal Witness - it's very useful also in this MU.
2) If your meta is Storm infested bring more discard to SB and Gaddock Teeg - I'm not a fan of him in this deck since he blocks GSZ, but it's still best hatebear to storm under GSZ (put on blind meta).

Aggressive tempo decks
2-4 Crop rotation depends - vs wasteland to doesn't lose tempo with wastelands
1 Glacial Chasm - not vs RUG/BUG decks, works well vs very aggresive decks like Burn or U/R
1 Wurmcoil Engin

Depends on scale of aggression you can replace Eldrazi's since both tempo decks can't deal with resolved titan.

Other cards specify vs unique combo decks:

GY hate - Reanimator and Dredge:
4 Crop Rotation
2 Surgical Exctraction
1 Bojuka Bog

Note that also Karkas works here very good, add Duress and Memoricide and you should win it. IF your meta is more GY combo infested bring Surgical Exctration and Scavenging Ooze.

Elves
- Crop Rotation
- Glacial Chasm

I worked really long and hard to find solution to Elves, and this is it. It's fog like, turn by turn which should be enough to resolve Deed/Titan.

That's actually all, after Dig Though Time ban this deck again very well positioned in meta - no OmniShow which was very hard to beat (only Memoricide).

7. Modifications

Considered modifications MD:

Ugin, the Spirit Dragon - As replacement for Karn Liberated - depends how many Deeds you running, how many MUDs is in your meta, and how many Needles / Revokers are (most of them will be named for Pernicious Deed.

Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - As replacement for Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, CA Ulamog - 1 v 3, Kozilek 1 v 5, but it's dependent since Kozilek draws cards, Ulamog answer to direct threads on table, Kozilek shuffle, Ulamog doesn't - so it's many may factors - best for you - test yourself what's better in your meta.

Cabal Coffers with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth Alternative way to achieve big mana boost instead of Posts.

Coffers vs Posts

Titan Scenerio: you have 6 mana and you cast Titan:

Scenerio variants:
a) You have 1 Glimerpost in those 6:
if you pick 2 cloudposts you will get additional 6 mana.
b) You have 1 Urborg in those 6:
if you pick 2 Cabal Coffers you will get 8 swamps total, so each Coffers with give 6 mana so basically you will gain 12 mana total - big profit
c) You don't have any utility land:
if you pick 2 cloudpost you will get additonal 4 mana
if you pick Cabal Coffers and Urborg you will get additional 6 mana, so better.

Facts:
1) Overlay Coffers gives much more mana in scenerio with Titan.
2) Problem is that Coffers doesn't give mana with normal way, so draws with double coffers is auto-mull, You will run 5 lands which doesn't give mana from start, which mean you need think how to improve this aspect to decrease initial mana screw.
3) Coffers give mana when you control at least 3 swamps or 3 lands which one of them is Urborg - from this scenario you can count it as black filtr - all mana will be black.
4) 1 Wasteland can kill Coffers boost (Urborg dead, coffers give with half mixed swamp-forests 1 mana.
5) Conditioner Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is Legendary so basically you can start game with 2 or more.

So in conclusion worst initial mana, bigger ramp after turn 5+, more vulnerable to wasteland. I think it rather below to NO-Combo decks, which are slower then for example Elves, so it's not worth. Control build is better in my eyes vs current meta.

Interesting note that Titan + Coffers + Eye of Ugin + Emrakul was added as SB package to Dark Depths / Threspian's Stage Combo as alternative way to victory vs Miracles.

Considered modifications SB:

Natural Order - Proposed by apple - could work as 2 mana boost to fetch Titan on battlefield vs unfair fast combo decks, but still didn't assamble stable list with it.

Innocent Blood - Very good vs Tempo decks, can also trigger Veteran Explorer, was as a removal in early stage of the deck, then Abrupt Decay was added as replacement, but it's still good as 1 CMC removal vs turn 1 Delver or Shaman, can also kill DD/Stage token, if you survive 1 attack.

Dread of Night - very good SB material vs Death & Taxes, works also well vs Lingering Souls tokens and Monastery Mentor tokens.

Sadistic Sacrament - it's an old tech used in ANT mirrors, It fits here as 3 mana final answer vs them, only real restriction is mana used, since it required BBB it's mostly connected with veteran trigger, or tower.

Thespian's Stage - it's actually best answer vs opponets Dark Depths / Thespian's Stage combo. Trick is to use it in response to opponent combo out, or evn earlier if they played Dark Depths.

Living Wish - it adds consistency sacrificing speed and SB slots which isn't great on big tournament.

Last list tested with Wishes:
3 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
4 Living Wish
//SB
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Crop Rotation
1 Duress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Primeval Titan
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Cavern of Souls


Cards which was tested and doesn't fit in this deck (from my testing), with comments:

All is Dust - Deed is enough, can dodge most soft counters, can resolve under Gaddock Teeg, kill also manlands when animated, can be used in instant speed.

Vesuva - this deck has so thiny place to utility lands that it's just too much, you need mana from start, so not worth, 8 Posts are enough.

Liliana of the Veil - 1BB cost is quite restrict able, but it's no such a problem as Liliana abilities, you don't want to discard cards, you want every land in your hand, so self discarding isn't an option. Liliana here will be just a worst Diabolic Edict.

Expedition Map / Collective Voyage / Ancient Stirrings / Natural Selection / Sylvan Scrying - it's just a search engine, doesn't give CA, remember this deck is a control-combo, not strict combo like 12Post, your CA is your power.

Note about Natural Selection could draw a card to be a better green Ponder on instant :-), now it's just a index which can be used vs opponent. Tested this card and it was very very funny against Delver :-), but nothing more.

Thrun, the Last Troll - was in early stage of deck when I was more focused only vs Miracles, I found it's not enough to win (sooner or later they draw Terminus or EtA), so It was dropped.

Garruk, Primal Hunter - was best from all of them (Garruks) as CA and wincon, but after all was dropped due to not as optimal as GSZ / Titans, quite restrictive cost GGG, responded removal to this CA draws, wasn't great, also TNN just bitte most of Planswalkers, dropped.

Garruk Relentless - was bad - hard to flip doesn't give anything to plan until flipped - easy to kill, after it flips - it's a good planswalker but with a lot of creatures, not here.

Garruk Wildspeaker - was first Garruk tested in this deck, after all I found he dies to fast, and doesn't give enough profits on long range.

Candelabra of Tawnos - Cloudposts are finishing plan, this deck doesn't run so many cloudposts to gain enough advantage - it's fit to 12Post not here.

Sakura-Tribe Elder - was in early stage of this deck, but after all I found I more like always Veterans or Wooded Elves - mostly that I can use them to CA by Therapies which Sakura can't.

Viridian Emissary - Veteran Explorer is just much more powerful

Sylvan Library / Phyrexian Arena - was very long in early stage of deck but after Decay was printed I drop it, and focus to step-by-step CA in each card in deck. Also both cards doesn't synergy with Pernicous Deed.

Oblivion Sower - it is just too random 5/8 body isn't but as for fightning factor wurmcoil Engine is much, much better. I cast it three times, and get in sum 1 fetchland which was U/R - not worth running in Legacy. Good side was that with Eye of Ugin it cost 4 mana. So basically 4 mana 5/8 which can sometimes give, one land - still bad.

Chalice of the Void - this deck doesn't suffer too much from running it - specially against combo, Chalice for@0 can save you from turn 1-2 kills against ANT/TES, but it's not permanent solution vs them, each of storm decks can outplay Chalice on longer game.

External References:

- Nic Fit thread where a lot was discussed after oath of the Gatewatch print http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit/page171
- Dark Depths using 8post/coffers Core to boost Miracle matchup - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28813-Deck-Dark-Depths/page19
- 12 Post using Vets http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=921785&viewfull=1#post921785

[Pdingo]

hei fatal

i will the test soon and post my list;)

nice treath;)

greets Pdingo

[Lemnear]

What about starting a thread once you have more content than a picture and the headline? If you worked on the deck the same way you did on this post (aka picking a headline like "Explorer + 12-Post-manabase" and THEN see how/if that develops), I fear this ends in a sea of laughs and facepalms

Edit: The combination of both ways of mana-acceleration is exceptional counterintuitive. It's like forcing Griselbrand into an Ad Nauseam deck and say "but ... Storm engines!"

[Fatal]

@Lemnear

Don't worry - I developed Maverick - and wrote a Primer about it, and know how to do it right, this deck is my next "pet" which is developed since almost year.

[Bobmans]

Nice concept. A while back i have been toying with a similar idea inspired on the McDarby veteran walkers and basicly mashed it up with a 12-post list. I got stuck on JUND colors and a clunky manabase with a lot of trouble getting access to black mana. Getting rid of red solves this obviously. It was kinda messy, but i liked having the following cards:
Through the Breach Although not a game finisher, dropping a Primetime with it basicly fetches 4 lands in the same turn. Giving you whatever you need dropping a spaghetti monster next turn. Or use it to drop Eldrazi to stabilize the board.
Sylvan Scrying I would suggest this one over Solemn Simulacrum since it fetches non-basic giving you acces to utility lands such as a Tower, Bog, Eye of Ugin.
Glacial Chasm Anti burn, but would require some way to recur it? First thing in mind is Life from the Loam... or something that can be fetched with GSZ like Tilling Treefolk. #clunky?

Anyway i will be following this list while being developed. Keep it up.

Edit: the early version of the list involved innocent blood and Punishing Fire to be able to control the board in the early game, but didn't work out anyway.

[Fatal]

Early lists contained some Life from Loam - but it was bad with Eldrazi triggers
Sylvan Scrying - tested - it doesn't ramp - only search, Aim is to speed up, with good MD and card selection you will get what you want key is to speed up.
Glacial Chasm - tested and was disappointed - much better works Wurmcoils which also works nice vs very fast aggro and BUG Tempo.
Tilling Treefolk - agree to clunky -tested

Each color gives some advantage but I'm almost sure that MD is limited to two colors, with only 15 source of color mana you can't handle more. I choose control board B/G and Explorer engine which is a key in early game.

[litenkatt]

Interesting!

One thought: Does it need 4x Primeval Titan? With 4 GSZ I feel like we can get away with less

[Lemnear]

So you think that 15 on-color manasources are enough to support the double color requirements Explorer + Therapy or Decay has? That's less initial mana than Storm has :/

I'm not convinced by the arguments to mash the decks up either. If you realize that Posts usually create enough life and mana to dominate the lategame, but the Explorer plan adds nothing against the actual problems these ramp-strategies have (namely combo) why add the Explorer suit at all? It's not that Therapy is a better card in these matchups than colorless options like Chalice

[Fatal]

@Lemnear - don't forget that running ramp - and can easy fetch missing color from Wood Elves or chumping Explorer - it does really well - specially when meta shift to decks which doesn't run white (swords to plowshares), Explorer is one of the most important part of this build - it gives early stabilization as well as chump fort.

@Titans are key part to winning the game - 4-of is really needed, I was testing any number of them (1-4) and always 4 was the best. GSZ always have more problems like spell pierce or Swang Song to face - Titans - only Force of Will and counterspells (which isn't to common). Also difference between 6 and 7 mana matters, sometimes its a turn.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear - don't forget that running ramp - and can easy fetch missing color from Wood Elves or chumping Explorer - it does really well - specially when meta shift to decks which doesn't run white (swords to plowshares), Explorer is one of the most important part of this build - it gives early stabilization as well as chump fort.

@Titans are key part to winning the game - 4-of is really needed, I was testing any number of them (1-4) and always 4 was the best. GSZ always have more problems like spell pierce or Swang Song to face - Titans - only Force of Will and counterspells (which isn't to common). Also difference between 6 and 7 mana matters, sometimes its a turn.

My point wasn't about fixing colors with Explorer or Wood Elves, it was about the chances to draw one of your 13 green manasources plus Explorer/GSZ to start. Even then you need either your opponent attacking into Explorer, not playing Plowshares or having a sac-outlet (which Therapy as such requires black). Explorer and GSZ as acceleration fullfil a similar role like Vesuva and Expedition Map would (chumpblock vs. lifegain by chaining Glimmerposts) but the later options are colorless instead of BG while the colored options are also conditional as mentioned above. I have my doubts that the combination of both manabases is any reliable for casting (and sacrificing) Explorer or to survive long enough to enter this decks lategame via Titans and Co.

[porcupinetreeman]

I see three problems with your deck.

1. Veteran Explorer can only grab basics.

2. Too many colorless lands to cast Cabal Therapy effectively.

3. Wasteland and Blood Moon Wreck you.

[konakonakona]

I see three problems with your deck.

1. Veteran Explorer can only grab basics.

2. Too many colorless lands to cast Cabal Therapy effectively.

3. Wasteland and Blood Moon Wreck you.

1. I don't see him mentioning that's how it works.

3. BUG delver and like every tier 1 deck does.

as for 2. I'd have to test to see if it's true though sometimes things are just known.

[Fatal]

Before judging mana base - test simple hands - really, I sacrifice a lot of time to testing to find proper configuration of lands - don't waste it.

About Blood Moon and Waste - how does 6 basics with 7 + 4 GSZ ways to fetch basics are worst then any other deck in Legacy against those ? I played a lot of games under Blood Moon and never had problems to found basics to destroy them via Abrupt Decay eot them use Cloudposts which was "disabled" for a while. For sure this deck has much more options to fight those 2 then standard 12Post which is almost defenseless vs Moon + REB.

You can also find me on Cockatrice quite often to test against.

[maharis]

I have been trying to find a way to jam Tooth & Nail/Emrakul/Xenagod in Modern and I actually think this might be a good Legacy shell for that combo. Lots of ramp + Crop Rotation for Boseiju (not to mention Therapy for FOW). I also really want to GSZ for Magus of the Candelabra.

[Fatal]

Losing to Karakas is not an option that's why I'm sceptical about T&N.

[Fatal]

Update Primer post ban also add new list. Wrote some words about SB.

[Barook]

Shouldn't Ugin be a consideration now?

Also, what about the new Ulamog?

[Fatal]

Tested Ugin - for sure it's very good - could be in Karn's slot, but from testing I found it isn't so universal as Karn, because:
- It doesn't blow out Colorless permanents - like Needle, Revoker or Lands which is sometimes very important
- It doesn't attack hand
- 1 mana is sometimes be-or not to be 8 vs 7 CMC.

Advantage for Ugin is covered by Pernicious Deed utility, I more like Deed since it's much faster. To understand it, just compare why I don't run anymore All is Dust.
For sure Ugin is perfect card for 12Post but in this deck we have similar utility which can be cast faster (can dodge Spell Pierces or other soft counters), few turns earlier.
But this is only my point of view - you can easily test which Karn replaced by Ugin.

About some new Eldrazi's:
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger - It's a win more in my eyes, after some case studies.
about game ending bombs:
You need end game for sure when you cast Eldrazi, only real game ending Eldrazi is still Emrakul, putting more Eldrazi's will only blank your hand for whole game and doesn't give you a win - only CA. This deck have very fast ramp, so basically you jump your available mana each turn (depends on scenerio):
Turn 1 - 1 mana / colored/colorless
Turn 2 - 2 colored / 3 colorless
Turn 3 - 5 colored / 4 colorless and 1 color / 6 colorless
Turn 4 - 6 colored / 6 colorless and 1 colored
Turn 5 - 6 colored and 4 colorless / 10 colorless and 2 colored
Turn 6 - 6 colored and 12 colorless / 20 colorless and 2 colored - here game mostly ends.

Adding more Eldrazi's like Ulamog, doesn't end game (sure it can blowing up 2 key permanents is huge with 10/10 indestructible body), question is when you want to cast it and why this is better then next Titan which give you enough mana for a unbreakable win, Titan is good in turn 4, same as turn 5, he can also give you life. When legacy would be more permanent combo focused I for sure would run it (Ulamog), now it's not needed.

So probably next question is why I run Kozilek, Butcher of Truth as second Eldrazi - it draws cards which could be GSZ or Titans, along with good body and 12/12 which can give me 11 life (StP). Let's see your mana scenerio, after you have 6 mana and you cast Titan you search for cloudpost and Eye (most time - statistical you will have already even 1 post on table glimmer/cloud) so your available mana will be 8 + Eye, this mean you can search and cast Eldrazi for 10 mana (even if you don't draw anything). Kozilek fit to your strategy - draw more Titans and answers, sure new Ulamog could be in this slot, my testing was probably to short to answer definitely to that question - just keep in mind CA if opponent counter your Eldrazi it's 1 for 3 for Ulamog, and 1 for 5 in case of Kozilek - maybe that's why I like it more, also shuffling effect is very important - you can do it right away next turn thanks to Eye of Ugin.

Interesting creature to test is probably Oblivion Sower it little looks like Colorless Titan. I'm little skeptical about it since Legacy runs a lot of fetchlands and random factor isn't my favorite. Could work as Titan 9, 10. Interesting note it works very well vs Deathrite Shaman (so quite a lot of decks) 4 lands is quite nice, but most of them will be colorless for us.
This - target opponent makes this card much less powerful. I give a spin in number of 2 (out Kozilek and Eternal Witness just for tests - probably Eternal Witness needed to stay, but I don't want to test 2 months so 2-of in tests).

[Fatal]

Update:

Added about 30 replays for cockatrice, not all are won (I also make mistakes ^^), those are best to watch since we learn what was wrong)- but they show how deck works vs many decks, I will be adding more replays to cover all Tier decks.

Oblivion Sower is mostly useless dropped added to not fit to deck section.

[apple713]

Id highly advocate the use of a natural order to steal some games and give you game against some combo decks.

[Fatal]

Yes, Natural order is very good here, I was also thinking about it, maybe It should be as SB vs combo decks, to speed UP. I'm not a great fan of it since it's 2-for-1 vs control, but It could easy work here. I will add to Considered cards, also I would glad to get some proposed list with NO. Its not easy to seed it.

[apple713]

Yes, Natural order is very good here, I was also thinking about it, maybe It should be as SB vs combo decks, to speed UP. I'm not a great fan of it since it's 2-for-1 vs control, but It could easy work here. I will add to Considered cards, also I would glad to get some proposed list with NO. Its not easy to seed it.

Tou probably have enough green creatures to support 3 natural order if you add 1-2 dryad arbors. The best creatures would be progenitus to race, ruric thar against combo, dragonlord akara against aggro. It also gets primeval titan. Tou dont really care that it is weak vs control decks like miracles because your matchup is already amazing with the eldrazi package.

[Fatal]

Actually resolved Titan is also enough vs fair decks, I would only add Ruric for combo MU, problem is that NO package take a lot of slots:
3 slots for NO, 2 slots for 2 more green creatures, 1 slot for dryad arbor, which I'm not a big fan connected with Pernicious Deed, so all package will take about 4 slots + 1 Ruric in SB. Two more green creatures could be Wooded Elves or some 2 cmc creature which ramp in place of Solemns (but not sure it's good). Actually from my older notes I found that NO package was tested MD and abandoned since this deck doesn't run enough green creatures to support it well, most time NO was a empty draw, since creatures dies before or was used to flashback therapy.

I would try this one:

4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Karn Liberated
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Sylvan Caryatid
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Memoricide
SB: 2 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Natural Order
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 1 Dryad Arbor
SB: 1 Taiga


I choose Sylvan Caryatid as additional green creature. I;m not a fan of this solution but I will give the spin of NO idea.

Other green creatures in cmc=2 could be:
- Wall of Blossoms - as a aditional cantrip (early versions of Nic Fit had some, enough to decrease 2 for 1 NO
- Lotus Cobra - good speed up, but very easy to took down
- Viridian Emissary - 5th Explorer

[Fatal]

Update only 4 replays against goblins (twice) since Krenko it's very hard, also swiching to decay wasn't help against turn 1 Lackey (before it was Innocent Blood), got twice opponent in row with goblins both 2-0, then replay again 2-0 - unfavorable Veteran helps them also, then most goblins run also Settler lock. Deed helps that's for sure, but they can just overstomp before If they land timed lackey, then drop overcost bomb which mean I'm dead mostly. If goblins are a lot in your meta - this isn't deck vs them.

Also added Shardless BUG.

Tested list upper - it doesnt work - to few green creatures for NO, was clunky. This they would need huge arrangement to NO would work, from control shell to more combo, which is pointless since you won't be faster then most combo decks or elves, Control shell is much better.

[apple713]

I'm testing a version of this but instead of cloudpost and glimmer posts, it runs cabal coffers & Urborg tomb of yawgmoth. not sure if its better or worse yet but it definitely has advantage like not coming into play tapped, and I think it coffers produces more mana.

[Echelon]

Wouldn't it be kinda awesome to incorporate Shallow Grave with Primeval Titan..? In one turn, you'd be able to tutor for 4(!) locusts, i.e. a possible +16 mana on the following turn. Or 3 locusts + Eye of Ugin. Maybe throw in Amulet of Vigor to use the mana on the same turn..? That would also open up the route of Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage + 2 random mana producers, though that might be stretching it a bit too far.

Getting it to work might be kinda awkward though.

[Fatal]

@Echelon Thank you for some ideas but, aren't Emrakul isn't better here as target - 15 dmg + Anihilator 6 - answer is simple - it's not a Reanimator. You can build "worst reanimator" on Primeval Titan but I think better is just to win the game right away (like Tinfins).

You talking about 2 card combo (discard + shallow grave) which is naturally card disadvantage if opponent counter shallow grave which can be spell snared, flustered, gravehated etc. To understand which cards will be good you must know how works all control decks - you have to gain advantage on opponent over time, each your card need to have value of at least 1 opponent card, best many opponent cards. So temporary, or risky plays like Entomb + Shallow grave brings total different deck.

@apple713 That's interesting approach. Ok let's count some scenerios - maybe it's worth:

We are comparing:
Cabal Coffers vs Cloudpost with Glimmerpost

Scenerio 1: you have 6 mana and you cast Titan:

variants:

a) You have 1 Glimerpost in those 6:

if you pick 2 cloudposts you will get additional 6 mana.

b) You have 1 Urborg in those 6:

if you pick 2 Cabal Coffers you will get 8 swamps total, so each Coffers with give 6 mana so basically you will gain 12 mana total - big profit

c) You don't have any utility land:

if you pick 2 cloudpost you will get additonal 4 mana
if you pick Cabal Coffers and Urborg you will get additional 6 mana, so better.

Facts:
1) Overlay Coffers gives much more mana in scenerio with Titan.

2) Problem is that Coffers doesn't give mana with normal way, so draws with double coffers is auto-mull, You will run 5 lands which doesn't give mana from start, which mean you need think how to improve this aspect to decrease initial mana screw.

3) Coffers give mana when you control at least 3 swamps or 3 lands which one of them is Urborg - from this scenario you can count it as black filtr - all mana will be black.

4) 1 Wasteland can kill Coffers boost (Urborg dead, coffers give with half mixed swamp-forests 1 mana.

5) Conditioner Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is Legendary so basically you can start game with 2 or more.

6) Coffers give black mana so it open new ways for cards which have X or many black mana in costs like anti-combo Sadistic Sacrament or antipaggro Phyrexian Obliterator also some cards like Black Sun's Zenith, Profane Command or Mind Shatter could work.

Could you post the list which are you testing ? I'm quite interested how you resolve problem with initial mana screw.

[Echelon]

You're right when it comes to Shallow Grave. The danger of cool things, I suppose. Might as well 22 someone instead of fetch some lands :laugh:.

Instead of Natural Order, you could also use Eureka as win-con. Just add in a couple of Fierce Empath as GSZ'able tutors for your Eldrazi and you have a green ramping S&T deck of sorts.

No need for Post-mana though. Nic Fit-shell would be enough acceleration.

[Fatal]

@Echelon - Thank you for input, but as I said - we don't need worst combo deck then S&T / Sneak attack variant, Eureka cost 4, same as NO so as it was metion before it was clunky, and you propose similar effect which is even worst - symmetrical.

Also not that Fierce Empath trigger will resolved after Eureka so you can't cast from Eureka fatties which you searched.


@apple713
I assembled this list with Coffers, it's looking something like old Death-cloud, Eternal Garden deck.


4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Cabal Coffers
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Profane Command
1 Collective Voyage
//sb
2 Duress
2 Memoricide
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Thragtusk
2 Innocent Blood
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation
1 Toxic Deluge


Some conclusions after few games:

- Initial mana will be a problem that's for sure, we need some ramp on 2-3 mana, testing Collective Voyage as additional Veterans.
- Deck is very vulnerable to wasteland, losing a Urborg is sometimes gamebreaking. You can't reactive to it since Urborg is legendary one.
- Life matters thinking about some lifegainer against some more aggresive decks.
- Coffers doesn't ramp you mostly until turn 5. Cloudpost had this.

Still looking some good controlish / CA cards from black which can be used.

[Ralf]

Some conclusions after few games:

- Initial mana will be a problem that's for sure, we need some ramp on 2-3 mana, testing Collective Voyage as additional Veterans.
- Deck is very vulnerable to wasteland, losing a Urborg is sometimes gamebreaking. You can't reactive to it since Urborg is legendary one.
- Life matters thinking about some lifegainer against some more aggresive decks.
- Coffers doesn't ramp you mostly until turn 5. Cloudpost had this.

Still looking some good controlish / CA cards from black which can be used.

Crop rotation is a very interesting tool to have when playing a veteran based deck with:
- phyrexian tower (sac effect)
- karakas (anti legendary creature)
- urborg (cycling an urborg into another land when you have a second one in hand)
- whatever utility land you might need (bojuka, ugin, glimmer, cloud etc...).

[Fatal]

Yes that's right, Crop rotation is all-star vs decks without counters. Vs blue permission it's very risky 2 for 1 spell. That's why I mostly keep them SB.

[Ralf]

Yes that's right, Crop rotation is all-star vs decks without counters. Vs blue permission it's very risky 2 for 1 spell. That's why I mostly keep them SB.

You can also use it as a protection tool against wasteland and if it gets countered at least it is just a 2 for 2.

[Echelon]

@Echelon - Thank you for input, but as I said - we don't need worst combo deck then S&T / Sneak attack variant, Eureka cost 4, same as NO so as it was metion before it was clunky, and you propose similar effect which is even worst - symmetrical.

Also not that Fierce Empath trigger will resolved after Eureka so you can't cast from Eureka fatties which you searched.


The point never was to drop an Empath with Eureka, OMG man. The thought never even crossed my mind, have some faith in your fellow Sourcers! The point was GSZ for Empath, following turn Eureka. Seriously, lol. Besides, symmetry isn't much of a problem when your opponents drop Delver of Secrets vs. your Emrakul. And seeing as green gives you Crop Rotation, Boseiju becomes a viable option to force your card through. If need be, Crop Rotation could also give you acces to Karakas to bounce back any Emrakul your opponent might drop.

[Fatal]

@Echelon Post any tested list which could work with Eureka - did you ever test any of suggestions which you wrote here ? If yes, please give proper feedback.

[Echelon]

@Echelon Post any tested list which could work with Eureka - did you ever test any of suggestions which you wrote here ? If yes, please give proper feedback.

I don't care enough to do so. This deck still has the biggest weakness both decks share and which are the pitfalls for either deck to really break through to tier 1 - anyCombo.dec. That, and consistency keeps being a bitch, especially if you scoop every now and again b/c someone StPs/Stifles the Veteran you rely so heavily upon. Seriously, the manabase is wobly as hell when running the Cloudpost version.

Rather than shore up either decks' weakness, you lump together both decks' overlapping strengths and hope any weaknesses either deck has just magically disappears. To keep to your own analogies: Why make a worse version of both decks when one could just play the good version of either? Developing this deck is mostly an excercise in futility, but I do wish you the best of luck with it.

[Fatal]

@Echelon
I think you should read Primer, specially the part genesis and Aim of this construction - there is everything wrote about, then read again your posts. Also if you think that StP can stop this deck you playing it wrong, read how to play this deck before suggesting changes.

About tools for BG decks vs combo nothing changes - you have permanent base hate, and discard.

[apple713]

This is literally the first iteration of the deck there are still issues to work out but it not quite what you are working on. Natural order is ok, it can be cast T2 in certain situations which is why ancient tomb is in here. I also ported this from a different deck that used chalice of the void and needed ancient tombs. You could cut those. After a handful of games I'd probably cut the tombs, and the natural order package, and increase th number of ramp factors and increase primeval to 4. Increase cabal therapy to 4 as well. If you give up the cloud posts and glimmer posts, you are going to want to include something like platinum emperor because burn will just dominate you. Sakura tribe elder and wood elves are nice. They make good sac outlets for natural order if you decide to keep it. Its weird but may work just don't know which direction to take it. I probably won't work on this much anymore because the cabal coffers eldrazi route solves the issue of the miracles matchup in my dark depths deck. So i'll be testing that more but this is just a rough mock up for u.

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Primeval Titan
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus
2 Mox Diamond
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Library
1 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Reclamation Sage

4 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Bayou
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Cabal Coffers
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain


This list was adapted from the link in my signature, chalice NO Eldrazi

[Fatal]

Thank you for your conclusions and the list. Good to know that Titan/Eye of Ugin/Eldrazi's resolved your problem with Miracles :-).

So basically list which you post is focused just on combo, without any of control aspects.

Adding more and more replays. I don't have so much time to play and find proper matchups to cover the holes.

[Fatal]

Looking for more tournament playtest, gathering input. Deck is well positioned in current meta, please give feedback about result.

[aminor]

Hey all,
i'm a long time lurker, but a first time poster, essentially because my english is very bad, so please forgive me for the incredible amount of faults and grammatical errors i will do since i don't use a corrector.

I'm here to introduce you to a new deck i've build : THE CABAL FITNESS

The core idea of the deck is to play a nic fit variant using the line of play of UG 12post... without any post. The idea came in my mind after testing a BG depths combo list from Apple713, (who is also a great player and a great guy with clever ideas) using cabal coffer alongside urborg, tomb of yagwmoth to make a bunch of mana, then casting Emrakul in order to deal with the controls matchup, where depths turbo have weakness.

I was really impressed by the amount of mana you can produce with cabal coffer, and since i'm also playing sometimes 12post, it reminded me how we can focus on this main plan, dropping the depths combo plan.

First, the list (edited) :
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Pithing Needle
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
5 Forest
3 Cabal Coffers
1 Swamp
1 Expedition Map
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


Here a link to have an overview of the deck : http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck.php?444013

The line of play can be obvious, but before explaining the slots i want to introduce you to the pros/cons in favor of cabal over the twelve post mana base.
PROS :
- the setup is way easier to make for mana than 12post : you only have to land urborg and cabal alongside random others lands.
- You can fit the combo in only one trigger off the primeval titan.
- wasteland is no more a major issue, since you can land basics during all the game and finally get cabal-urborg the last turn.
- Cabal produce black mana, where post only give colorless.
- The mana base isn't shut down by blood moon.
- Urbog help a lot with mana issues, since your eye/maze/cabal now produce black.
- Cabal coffer give you way more mana than cloudpost in the long run.
- cabal come into play untapped.
Example : 7 others lands on the board : your cabal produce 8 mana, minus 2 to activate it : 6 mana/coffer.


CONS :
- You have to land a greater lands total than 12post.
- you are very reliant on urborg. It's the Key card of the deck.
- cabal don't produce mana on his own.
- urborg can also help an opponent facing black mana issues.
- Don't give you life.
- you have to keep 2 land open to a first activation of cabal.


THE WAY OF USING THE DECK :

Since you need a large amount of lands on the board, i figured that a mix between the nic fit and 12post best tool's were the way to go : veteran explorer for an explosive early mana account, then primeval titan, tutoring you the combo and speeding up the clock. GSZ is very great here since it pick you both more important cards of the deck.

First, you have to land ASAP a veteran. then go for primeval in order to close the game. It's that simple. Between the first and the second step, you have many tools to your disposure to control the board's state.

To make it work, i've used a 2/3/4/6/7/8/8 strategy here :
- 2 "control the top" (2 SDT)
- 3 "finisher" (1 emrakul, 1 ulamog, 1 Ugin)
- 4 "control the hand" ( 4 cabal therapy)*
- 6 tutors lands ( 4 crop, 2 map)*
- 7 "control the board actions" (3 Perni. deed, 3 decay, 1 pithing)
- 8 "ramp faster" (4 veteran, 4 GSZ)
- 8 "combo off" (4 titan, 4 GSZ)

* (mainly used in early game to sac veteran)


The deck is litteraly as piloting a 12post since your only goal is to survive enough time to win. The advantage over 12 post is that you have the best card to crush the board : pernicious deed. In a deck like 12post even if it was on the right colors you can't play it since you have to run pithing needle to protect yourself from waste and candelabra to have ridiculous amount of mana. both problems are partially solved here.
And don't think the deck is a looong time controlish deck : you can go T4 hardcast emrakul with a setup as simple as veteran/gsz, a land tutor/phyrexian tower and a gsz/a primeval :
T1/T2 : land a veteran
T3 : find a way to sac it, let say you have on board 2 forest and a phyrexian tower (GG from forest, sac vet on tower adding BB, trigger vet give you two more forest : GG = GGBBGG) to cast a primeval titan, search for double cabal.
T4 : land any land, attacking with primeval, (tutoring urborg if you don't have it and any other land you need/want to see, let say a karakas). Your lands on board are now : Urbog+karakas tapped, forest/swamp/whatever x 6 +2x cabal coffer producing 10 each = 6 + 20 - 4 = 22 manas, Hell... you can even crop/land an eye, pay 7 to grap an eldrazi and cast it the same turn if you don't have your finisher in hand.

Speaking about mana, i've build the same utilitary lands package from 12 posts : karakas for infinity loop with rakul and dealing with problematic items, bog (PIF plan, reduce goose, reanimator, snap, RG lands, and it's on the color so..) cavern of souls (counterspells and chalice), eye of ugin as win condition tutor, and a phyrexian tower to take a maximum profit from veteran.


THE META

The deck is a very metagamed deck actually, since it's a control deck's predator. During my tests, i think i am about winning 75% of miracles (mentor or not) match ups. Same thing with shardless and stoneblade, around 70%. D&T is not that easy but still favourable.
Tempo matchs are tigh, even to little favourable, depending how your opponent will deal with veteran explorer, since during game 2/3 they know all is depending on how many lands you have on board. For canadian, i will say 50/50. for team america or grixis, it's 55/45 or 45/55 for us depending on the use of the stifle package or not.

Of course for both control and tempo decks decay and pernicious deed are really good, but the main force the same as 12 post : inevitability, your combo can't be countered.

And here we are.. like nic fit, the main problem is combo. And especially faster combo, aluren, turbo depths, imperial painter and so on have differents match up depending on the build. But the real problem is ANT, TES, sneak&show and elves since your only way to protect yourself are 4 cabal and sometimes crop rotation. And this main issue is why the sideboard is almost dedicated to handle combos deck ( 2 mindbreak trap, 2 surgical, gaddock, tabernacle for ETW/elves/dredge, duress,2 thoughtseize)
I do not count in the problematic combo deck reanimator since we run a big tutor package for both bojuka bog and karakas even main deck, and dredge because post side the deck autolose once you have landed tabernacle.

The RG lands match up is somehow weird. They can't do so many things against our basic mana base, but they can get us out of reaching the 6 mana, buying them time to assemble their combo. You have only bog main deck and one pithing. Use them wisely since once they combo out you will have only one chance to crop into karakas. Post side is way better since you are playing 3 needle and 2 surgical. Always target wasteland then thespian on pithing, and loam and thespian/depths (or PFire rarely) with surgical. their only hope after that is to pay 30 mana to remove counters on depths. i'd say that preboard RG lands is favored, then post side even to favourable for us.


I assume the deck still need readjustment, especially the sideboard, wanted to add enginereed plague for example etc.. Don't hesitate to post your feeling or your ideas to improve the list (especially if you are a 12post/nic fit player) and again, sorry for my english i'm French and usually french peoples sucks at speaking others languages; i don't derogate the rule.
If you wanna test some games with/against the deck on cockatrice, i'm Blitz91.

[mistercakes]

i think -1 map, -1 ugin + 1 gsz, +1 scavenging ooze. this is going to speed up your deck and improve some of the matchups vs the unfair decks.

[aminor]

i think -1 map, -1 ugin + 1 gsz, +1 scavenging ooze. this is going to speed up your deck and improve some of the matchups vs the unfair decks.

I was thinking at ooze as a sideboard option, but he maybe deserve a slot main deck since he is efficient in so many ways, and the deck don't have problem to produce multiple G. I will give him a try for sure.
For the ugin i'm not sure about throwing it away since he saved me so many times. It's a reset button doing the same job pernicious deed do, in better.

My main problem actually is i wonder if 4 cabal isn't too many? In more game than i expected i wished that 4th cabal was another utilitary land, like a maze (who is fantastic vs UG poison since it's a bad matchup) or a second phyrexian tower maybe...
I have another concern about the way to sac veteran. Imho having 4 cabal, and 6 lands tutors to fetch phyrexian tower alongside pernicious... and the opponents creatures were enough, but it is not. Some players don't hesitate to totally stall the game waiting to have a way to deal dmg by the air for example.

[aminor]

I've edited the list since i've moved few slots to be more focused on landing the combo ASAP as some players advised me :
+ 1 GSZ, + 1 sensei +1 crop rotation - 1 sylvan scrying, - 1 ugin, -1 ?

[Badwise]

Have you considered exploration? I think that it'd help as a two of for quickening your early turns, getting out the "extra lands" to boost your urborg. Have you had success with using emrakul? How consistently are you able to get him out? Kozilek/ulamog aren't as impressive but they come out faster ? I'd love to see the matchup report. This is a neat deck.

[aminor]

Have you considered exploration? I think that it'd help as a two of for quickening your early turns, getting out the "extra lands" to boost your urborg. Have you had success with using emrakul? How consistently are you able to get him out? Kozilek/ulamog aren't as impressive but they come out faster ? I'd love to see the matchup report. This is a neat deck.

Hey :)
Exploration is sometimes an awesome starter (even if 26 lands isn't that much to really make profit from it) but is more often a dead draw, since we don't refill our hand, and it get destroyed by deed, so i don't think we have to include it.

Emrakul is the main way to close the game. In fact i don't remember many games where i won without landing the flying spaghetti. You can land it as fast as turn 4, but usually if you know that you aren't paired with a combo deck, you can take your time to setup a cavern of soul for example. In average, i'd say you are able to hardcast emrakul turn 6.

others cheaper eldrazi don't close the game like emrakul can do (even if i play a single ulamogv.2 to get rid off some random permanents) and usually they don't come faster, since you will produce around 10 to 14 mana/coffer once you primevaled. Most of the time i'm able to cast emrakul from a single land (feelgreat.jpg) and it was the main reason why i wanted to lower the number of coffers (actually x3). I think the point is i try to make the combo using the fewest component as possible in order to avoid dead draw and limiting variance.

i'm glad you enjoyed the list btw, i will edit soon the primer with some extended match ups and maybe some recorded games from cockatrice.

[Badwise]

Thank you for replying, I am still working to understand legacy and your insight on the card choices is helpful. I'll playtest the deck tonight and let you know how it performs. :)

[Monkey_Island]

Hi!
Nice deck! Have you considered a 1 of Lake of the Dead for a big boost of mana and to get rid of the extra copies of Urborg?

[Fatal]

Not mentioning prime thread about B/G ramp which seems exactly same strategy is wrong. Use search before posting new thread. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post.

Specially the comprehension of two versions cons and pros for them (section 7 - Modifications):


Coffers vs Posts

Titan Scenerio: you have 6 mana and you cast Titan:

Scenerio variants:
a) You have 1 Glimerpost in those 6:
if you pick 2 cloudposts you will get additional 6 mana.
b) You have 1 Urborg in those 6:
if you pick 2 Cabal Coffers you will get 8 swamps total, so each Coffers with give 6 mana so basically you will gain 12 mana total - big profit
c) You don't have any utility land:
if you pick 2 cloudpost you will get additonal 4 mana
if you pick Cabal Coffers and Urborg you will get additional 6 mana, so better.

Facts:
1) Overlay Coffers gives much more mana in scenerio with Titan.
2) Problem is that Coffers doesn't give mana with normal way, so draws with double coffers is auto-mull, You will run 5 lands which doesn't give mana from start, which mean you need think how to improve this aspect to decrease initial mana screw.
3) Coffers give mana when you control at least 3 swamps or 3 lands which one of them is Urborg - from this scenario you can count it as black filtr - all mana will be black.
4) 1 Wasteland can kill Coffers boost (Urborg dead, coffers give with half mixed swamp-forests 1 mana.
5) Conditioner Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is Legendary so basically you can start game with 2 or more.

So in conclusion worst initial mana, bigger ramp after turn 5+, more vulnerable to wasteland. I think it rather below to NO-Combo decks, which are slower then for example Elves, so it's not worth. Control build is better in my eyes vs current meta.

Interesting note that Titan + Coffers + Eye of Ugin + Emrakul was added as SB package to Dark Depths / Threspian's Stage Combo as alternative way to victory vs Miracles.

I also see some desynergy between pithing needle and pernicious deed, also Gaddock Teed seems good but without way to cast it from hand it looks poor, you should consider some scrubland/savannah somewhere in 75.

[MGB]

Wow... This could break the metagame wide open.

[aminor]

Not mentioning prime thread about B/G ramp which seems exactly same strategy is wrong. Use search before posting new thread. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post.

Specially the comprehension of two versions cons and pros for them (section 7 - Modifications):



I also see some desynergy between pithing needle and pernicious deed, also Gaddock Teed seems good but without way to cast it from hand it looks poor, you should consider some scrubland/savannah somewhere in 75.

wow i wasn't aware such a thread existed, thanks for the link. I've never saw it before so i'm a little bit consufed and disapointed right now. if this thread is considered as a doublon no prob i will delete it.

About pithing i only play a single one main deck so it's not an issue, gaddock is usually casted via gsz, but if he is stuck in you hand you are still able to cast it with cavern of souls or karakas, but still, the side need some works as i said.

[Fatal]

Don't delete it ! You put a lot of work in here. Much better will be merge both threads, which should be report to admins to do so.

You right I forgot about Karakas as white mana source, with so many land search you still can cast it. Basically you have crops, karakas and Cavern so not so bad.

From my 2 years+ testing wit BG Post best sb against Elves is glacial chasm under crop rotation - it stops them for enough from alpha strike to hardcast Emrakul so you should consider it (Engineered Plague isn't great since a lot of creatures still survive), more over it's quite expensive in mana compared to Gogari Charm, but the worst it can be just blow up by Abrupt Decay or Sage. On the other hand Plague resolve goblins problem which can be quite problematic (veterans helps them also).

Depends on meta Sneak Attack is probably last very hard MU to resolve by SB. Needles works very well here, but beware that they side in Moons and artifact removal vs needles. I found that Memoricide works here best - just name Emrakul or Sneak Attack (both will be gamebreaking). Without Emrakul they can't dmg you if you have active Karakas, if they didnt resolve Sneak Attack yet just name Sneak Attack and look out for alternative wincons from their SB.

[aminor]

Ok the results with the deck are just insane, it's about winning 80% of the time. The list is so resilient and you make so much CA, all is about 3 for 1 : veteran, titan, deed, ulamog etc..

[Jander78]

Threads have been merged.

[death]

Wow... This could break the metagame wide open.

impressive.

[Fatal]

Thank You for merging, actually I have no time for testing but looking forward more feedback from the Source players about this deck.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys, is the instant speed on Hero's Downfall really that important? I was thinking it could be worth testing Ruinous Path because sometimes you are hellbent and have a ton of lands but no creatures. I realize the nonbo with Deed blowing up one of our own lands, but I figured I would ask if anyone else has tried it anyways.

[Fatal]

Instant speed matters vs walkers, so you can kill them eot, then put a thread (just tempo reasons).

Ruinous Path looks interesting since it resolve some problems when walker is protected by a creature and you have to pick what to kill, so basically it could be 2 for 1 card (kill defending creature then attack walker) - I like it, but it's little overcosted 7 mana + a land even for this deck, but woth to try.

Btw I'm testing little changes in sb to bump crop rotation count, bacasue I'm facing a lot of Combo R/G lands.

2 Duress
2 Memoricide
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Thragtusk
2 Innocent Blood
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Crop Rotation


Since combo lands player boarding 4 Krosans arifact/enchantment solution isn't an option, looking for good answer on creature or spell, best would be green. I even consider red splash on sb, to update Memoricide to Games and best answer vs Lands - Crumble to Dust. Other fortel would be Mystifying Maze which would just exile the token, but probably Karakas is just better here.

--------------------

UPDATE 11-29-2015

Changed SB for more Rotation to 4 and added Surgicals, Trugtusk was cut with Innocent Blood - meta choose. Added some replays with 12Post which depends very on drawn hand and flipped coin.

[apple713]

I was messing around with your list FATAL and I am sure that the coffers manabase is superior to posts manabase. The only downside however is that you would probably want to run 3+ crop rotation main. Doing do would also allow you to have a better game vs certain combo decks G1 with a main deck karakas. I think main deck bojuka would also be worth it.

The sideboard ABSOLUTELY needs gaddock teeg a 1 of. I also think that Sadistic Sacrament would be better than memoricide, especially against ANT. Also, if you happen to get enough mana, which isn't difficult, you can kick it which can be game breaking against almost any deck. Wurmcoil is ok, but you might consider platinum Emperion he is good against various decks. 1 of Ooze would help in the SB as well. Slightly slower but definitely doable with veteran.

why you prefer Karn over Ugin? Turbo eldrazi players have actually never really considered karn very much but have seen success with Ugin. Maybe because he can spot remove cards while maintaining a deed? probably not important if you have an ugin in play. Maybe you need to hit things like grisselbrand / emrakul? or against reanimator? But do you really hope to get to 7 mana against those decks? Maybe its possible if you run the cabal land version because basics from veteran up the count for cabal coffers.

Ulamog vs kozelik is an endless debate and really it depends on your meta.

I feel like burn is probably an unwinable matchup. If you find that it is, you could add chalice of the void to the board which would help your combo matches too. If you don't like setting chalice on 1 you can put it on 2 for price of progress, infernal tutor, life from the loam. However, if you keep posts lands this is the only match where i think the life from glimmer posts might help. Chalice is actually not bad because of how you sequence your spells. You can play T1 veteran, T2 Land, cabal, cabal, chalice on 1. Most of your 1 drops are spent. Although it gets killed by deed, when you put chalice in you would take deed out so its not a problem. Also, in certain matches even though it hurts you, it hurts them more, consider elves / burn.

I would suggest something like this

4 Crop Rotation
1 Eternal Witness
4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Karn Liberated
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Cabal Coffers
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith


SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard decisions

Thought seize because its more versatile than duress. Put in against infect, elves, mud, painter, and UG cloudpost. If your meta is mainly combo + burn, duress is probably fine.
I prefer 2 chalice rather than 2 sphere for the reasons mentioned above.
Teeg is a necessity vs combo decks
Surgical helps against grave decks and recursive wastelands so i think 3 is appropriate.
Chasm is good vs various decks like elves
I like sacrament instead of memoricide because its better vs ant and has the added benefit of being kicked.
Tabernacle is good vs dredge, Empty the warrens, and some tempo strategies. Especially combined with maze of ith.
4th Abrupt decay vs counterbalance and tempo decks.
Platinum Emperion is probably the weak link. He's good against burn but he's too slow. He's good against other random decks too that might not have an answer for him.

[Pdingo]

hei fatal
nice matches;)i was the guy with mono G 12 Post.
i think here's really a gamble who win. like we saw a little missplay can cost the whole game.

greets

[Fatal]

@Pdingo
GG matches, you was really unlucky and made some mistakes, which I hope never happens again ^^.

@Apple
Thank you for the list, I want to ask how many times you had problems to have 6 mana for Titan ?
Since Cabal Coffers doesn't give mana until turn 3-4 (if you have Urborg) and you cut a lot of mana lands (only 20 mana sources), so not triggered Explorer is a problem. You cut all other ramping sources. I tested similar list and was disappointed on t's speed.

On the other side I added a lot of Crop rotation on sb (to 4 of) which are great vs nonblue decks, finding tower/cloudpost turn 2-3 can speed up a lot, but I like them on SB, MD - countered is double pain and mostly a game lose vs tempo / midrange. Only way to use them against blue is probably vs activated wasteland (which isn't so common scenario, mostly each mana counts).

Ugin vs Karn - I pick Karn only because two reasons:
- Revoker / Needle
- Mirrors (Eldrazi's)
- MUD
- Can exile land (read mirror MVP).

Ugin is batter vs many threads, which isn't to often when opponent realize that I'm running multiple Deeds in 75. Turbo Eldrazi is missing Deed effect that's why they running Ugin. I more like Deed since it dodge Gaddock, and can be cast turn 3 so it's castable vs Delver for example.

Sadistic Sacrament vs Memoricide:
In Coffers Sacrament is probably better, but there is a one heck - Sacrament doesn't remove card from hand, which mean If they draw it - you are doomed. Memoricide also is better gainst S&T decks. Exiling all four is probably better here. Sacrament on the other hand is better vs ANT - so it's meta dependent slot - just try to analyze which decks are more popular in your area - Sneak Show or ANT. If I would go for GP which this deck I would bring in Gaddock Teeg in 75.

I'm not a fan of chalice since it blocks our answer vs Combo - Discard, more over Chalice can be outplayed by good ANT player, Sphere works much better here.

[tescrin]

I'm not a fan of chalice since it blocks our answer vs Combo - Discard, more over Chalice can be outplayed by good ANT player, Sphere works much better here.
Just put Chalice on 0. It not only blocks 8 of their mana pieces and none of your interaction; it disables the Infernal Tutor combo with it and LED is the best mana-generator Storm has. On top of this; Chalice@0 can be played T1 next to Discard; which means you can get a lot of interaction in a very small time frame.

I'm not saying "Definitely run it"; but don't count it out. Chalice is also a fantastic "free win" against Delver a lot of the time and occasionally shines quite well in other circumstances (Shardless can't get Visions through it if you Chalice@0, for instance. And that's their biggest way to recover from Deeds.)

Keep in mind, Chalice used that way is also a large tempo advantage if they do kill it; as 0 mana for two of theirs can be a timewalk.

[Fatal]

I wouldn't bring Chalice against Shardless it's dis-synergy with Deed which is probably best card against them.

Played a lot with ANT and TES, and scariest Chalice is for 1, it blocks cantrips which find answers and can assamble kill, Chalice for 0 stops only fast kills (like was written, thy can't hellbant enough fast if their hand contains more then 1 land without brainstorm, they also can't gain mana from petals, so turn 1 kill is very unique under chalice for 0), it's useless later turns after they put back LED and replace them with other mana spells. The strongest parnament hate vs ANT is spheres that's for sure, they can't easy kill it, it blocks each spell. What's why I took strategy vs ANT -> Turn 1 discard, turn 2 hate permanent.

It's true that Chalice can work well vs RUG, but on the other side it blocks also my important cards like hardcasting Veteran or C.Therapy their permission, since this deck can't cast it on play turn 1, you mostly rather want to kill thread (delver) then get 3 more dmg, doesn't work vs BUG - since you don't have too many targets against their Decay's for sure it will get destroyed.

Chalice would be good vs Burn - that's for sure, but doesn't kill the biggest issue with it - Price of Progress.

I will add Chalice of the Void as SB card vs Storm in main post.

[Bobmans]

The new Oath set brings some good cards with potential. While MUD AND Turbo Eldrazi are the forst that come to mind i do feel cards like World Breaker and Endbringer for this deck more. Im gonna look into this. What are your thoughts about the spoilers?

[Fatal]

Some cards are interesting but nor of them works as better replacement, looking forward for full spoiler.

[Fatal]

I was convinced by my friends to not public more knowledge about this deck until next GP in Prague, so cya after !

//Screw it ! :-)

[Raystar]

I was convinced by my friends to not public more knowledge about this deck until next GP in Prague, so cya after !

So, let me understand...you came here for help, got people minds on it with advice and ideas and now that you think you are onto something you go all CIA?

Way to go man...

[Fatal]

@Raystar - I just changed strategy - look there are a lot of time gaps between posts. Primer still is described so you can do what you want and post any thoughts it's not forbidden :-).

I just wanted to play this deck on GP with some surprise factors which I found or will be created until GP, since there is little response from community it's not a big lose.

[Raystar]

@Raystar - I just changed strategy - look there are a lot of time gaps between posts. Primer still is described so you can do what you want and post any thoughts it's not forbidden :-).

I just wanted to play this deck on GP with some surprise factors which I found or will be created until GP, since there is little response from community it's not a big lose.

I'm sorry if I sounded aggressive, you are in your right to do whatever you want...I guess I just had a bad day...

[Fatal]

@Raystar no offends taken, :-) best wishes in New Year !

Good advice for people trying this deck, specially when you are in race mode - Crop Rotation for Tower can easy trigger explorer.

For example:

Game vs Storm:

Turn 1 Discard or Explorer
Turn 2 Crop for Tower or Discard to flashback + GSZ for Gaddock is probably right path, alternative is Memoricide.

Don't keep lose hand with no action turn 1-3. Single Crop Rotation won't save you, you need to be proactive with discard, sculpt and hatebears. Note that if they are on play they will also keep hand with turn 1 T.size which can discard your bullet, never side out E.Witness in this MU.

With Memoricide route it's little more complicated:

route A:
1) Slow down opponent, works vs non-lucky, non-DarkPetition builds - Pick Infernal Tutor, now they need to draw wincon naturally. Prefereable if you have Titan next turn.

2) Sculpt his wincon - works vs low thread SB plan or when you have good answer like Pernicous Deed vs Empty the Warrens - pick up Tendrils of Agony, then Empty the Warrens.

Important note:
Gaddock route shut down Memoricide sculpt, unless you draw Karakas to bounce Gaddock Eot.

Update to SB gameplan testing split Memoricide / Sadistic Sacrament

[Fatal]

I found solution to early Dark Depths / Therespian Stage combo. Answer is on Stage under Crop Rotation.

I'm also testing Wish build which fill holes in draw. List:
3 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
4 Living Wish
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Eye of Ugin
SB: 1 Primeval Titan
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Veteran Explorer

I found that Explorer under wish is very useful when not drawing GSZ or Explorer itself. Also Tower is great as sacrifice outlet here. Only downside which I see is really tiny SB.

[leo-the-druid]

Hi Fatal,

I've been playing with your build for a while, fun and powerful.

This living wish build intrigues me; isn't it sort of redundant with GSZ? do you have any recent gameplay videos with wishes?
Also, if you're wishing for Veteran, it's probably better to do it turn 3 and deploy it right away to avoid discard. Am I correct? That seems a bit slower than GSZ.

The Stage plan against Depths combo seems cool. I'll try it out.

And how do you feel about Sadistic Sacrament instead of Memoricide? Have you ever resolved it with the kicker? I sort of feel like BBB is tough to cast quickly (though Tower makes it easier), and you probably need it as soon as you can against Storm. How would you pilot this?

Last thing, did you ever consider playing Ulamong, the infinite gyre instead of Kozilek? He seems to be useful against Karakas / Walkers.

Thanks in advance.

[Fatal]

@leo-the-druid

I'm glad you have a lot of fun with this deck, actually Wish build is still in testing. I don't have proper data to answer question: is it better or worst then standard build. As you see in list I didn't cut GSZ count, so if you ask about redundancy with GSZ I answer - yes it is redundancy, and that was which I wanted to achieve - redundancy and consistency, which are necessary factors about getting results with good deck. I didn't cover any replays yet, but have quite a lot of them, I still learing proper paths answering scenarios which I met while playing.

You are right about scenario about turn 2 or 3 with Living Wish for ramp (Veteran), but you must also consider which kind of discard opponent can use, if it's cabal therapy, proper will be wish turn 3 for Veteran and cast it right away, if he plays with deathblade better will be Wish turn 2 to have free mana on turn 3 to cast for example sacrifice outlet (therapy or tower) and use it holding priority to dodge swords to plowshers, If he discard you while his turn it will be thoughtsieze which can answer Wish itself or founded veteran from it so it doesn't matter.

I very like Sadistic Sacrament versus ANT since it can easily took down all their wincons at once, 4 crop rotations buffs cast it, which Memoricide can't, I also keep in mind that Memoricide is much better vs Sneak Show, but it's rather meta call and pick vs incoming matchups. I didn't pick Sadistic Sacrament for it's kicker (which is very nice !), I didn't even cast it with kicker yet ! It's important ability to sculpt Tendrils with EtW at once for 3 mana (turn 2).

Ulamog, the infinite gyre is more like utility and answer vs problematic threads on table, Karakas isn't a thread vs us at all, it doesn't work vs Emrakul and from Kozilek you gain +4 cards. All Eldrazi has enough powerful cast trigger which are just more value then their body on battlefield (which is also nice), so STP on Kozilek doesn't really matter. For example Kozilek is like draw 4, -1 card from opponent and +12 life spell which have to answered immediately, Ulamog utility (also Ulamog 2.0 which is probably just better) was considered in place of one of Karns slot in non-wish build, but overlay I found it's little overcosted, and slower path to victory. As you found yourself this deck mana available growth exponentially, which mean you have 6-7 mana then 12-15 next turn (after resolving a titan for example). This mean you don't won't to gain advantage on table when you have 12-15 mana - you want to win next turn with Emrakul-loop with gaining life in same time from glimmerposts. So Ulamog answers narrow cases when opponent have ultimate jace next turn (you lose) - I can't find other case when you pick Ulamog instead of Emrakul or Titan for Emrakul, that's why it was cut from deck.

[JohnBell]

I found solution to early Dark Depths / Therespian Stage combo. Answer is on Stage under Crop Rotation.

I'm also testing Wish build which fill holes in draw. List:
3 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
4 Living Wish
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Eye of Ugin
SB: 1 Primeval Titan
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Veteran Explorer

I found that Explorer under wish is very useful when not drawing GSZ or Explorer itself. Also Tower is great as sacrifice outlet here. Only downside which I see is really tiny SB.

I tried this list but I've some question.
What you side IN/OUT Vs the "Deck to Beat"?
Why you play one Duress in side?

[Fatal]

Sideboarding with this list vs DTB:

ANT:
+ 4 Crop Rotation
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 1 Duress
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 1 Sadistic Sacrament

- 3 Abrupt Decay
- 2 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

You rather want Gaddock Teeg MD instead of under Living Wish, as I said in Primer Living Wish version is worst vs open meta since it has very tiny SB slots. you also want keep some Deeds vs Empty the Warrens route. Wishless version has better SB vs ANT.

Miracles:
Nothing, really your MD is enough vs them. Keep in mind that splash with red will bring Blood Moon, you can also face Back to Basics (it's isn't too popular but it happens), so fetch some basics on early turns. If it's mentor-less version you can bring Gaddock instead of one Explorer, but it isn't necessary.

Shardless BUG:
-1 Karakas
+1 Bojuka Bog


Team America & Grixis Tempo (same SB strategy):
- 1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
-1 Karakas
-1 Living Wish
+1 Duress
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Wurmcoil Engine

About playing vs Shardless, Team America and Grixis keep in mind that you need to dodge Shamans exile effect with your therapy so proper play will be playing Veteran before therapy.

For Wish-less build:


4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Karn Liberated
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage


ANT:
+4 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Sadistic Sacrament
+2 Duress

-2 Karn Librated
-3 Abrupt Decay
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Emrakul, the Aoens Torn
-1 Kozilek, the Butcher of Truth
-2 Solemn Simulacrum
-1 Eye of Ugin

Miracles:
Nothing MD is enough

Shardless BUG:
+ 1 Bojuka Bog
+ 1 Wurmcoil Engine
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Karn Librated

Team America & Grixis Tempo (same SB strategy):
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Wurmcoil Engine
+2 Duress
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Kozilek Butcher of Truth
- 2 Karn Librated

[Ricardio]

Is there an update for this list? Anything running 4 Prime Time and 4 cloudpost has my full attention.

[JohnBell]

I've tested a bit the wish-list. I don't agree with this side cards:
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage

Why only one duress? Gaddock Teeg is really necessary? Isn't better a different strategy Vs. ANT?

If we cut Duress, Gaddock and the stage we can play three Leyline of Sanctity...
Is maybe a good idea?

[Ricardio]

living wish seems too slow and the toolbox doesn't hit as hard as it should. I feel cutting it frees up needed spots to shore up weakness the deck has.

[Fatal]

Yes, I didn't have time to wrote about it, but I abandon Wish list, since it's just too slow. I back to original version. Actually changed 1 card in sb - Glissa as answer for today hype Eldrazi Stompy and it's playing very well against it. Thanks to Titans and glimmers, it's really easy to win :-).

[Ricardio]

Can I get a list? I would like to sleeve up my foil prime times and cloudposts.

[Fatal]

Changes are very marginally to original one:

4 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Karn Liberated
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Glissa, the Traitor

[Ricardio]

SO why play this mash up of nic fit and post as opposed to either deck?

Just from a standpoint of why this is better than either of the ingredients.

[Bobmans]

SO why play this mash up of nic fit and post as opposed to either deck?

Just from a standpoint of why this is better than either of the ingredients.
Have you read the OP?

[Fatal]

Have you read the OP?

This

[Ricardio]

Have you read the OP?


This

well those are both lazy answers. I was hoping to get something more intuitive and enthralling. Sell me the deck. Make me want it.

[Bobmans]

well those are both lazy answers. I was hoping to get something more intuitive and enthralling. Sell me the deck. Make me want it.
Hahaha, yeah right. This ain't Idols.

[Ricardio]

Hahaha, yeah right. This ain't Idols.

Well damn Gucci. I want to play something like this but I want to facilitate BUG so the combo matchup isn't so ridiculous variance reliant.
Albeit I may just want to run something with PW's and Prime time. why cant I find room for post and vet? Too much gravy in the mashed potatoes, m8.

[Fatal]

@Ricardio

well those are both lazy answers. I was hoping to get something more intuitive and enthralling. Sell me the deck. Make me want it.

Did you hardcast Emrakul from mana in Legacy ?
Did you like to own every boring Miracle lovers ?
You don't like to lose to early Blood Moon or flipped Delver ?

Here is deck for You, where your opponents will make "WTF eyes" every time you slam Solemn or Prime Time on table :-).

[Ricardio]

I have been looking over the list and the number of green creatures for the full set of gsz seems unnecessary for the most part. this list seems a bit loose. Also the inclusion of ugin would help this deck out, I assume cutting a karn or deed would be right.

[Fatal]

@Ricardio

I think GSZ in good number.

Let ask some questions what are your aim turn by turn:

Turn 1-2-3 (early game) you aims:
1) ramp asap
2) shatter opponent hand with cabal therapy
3) get as much CQ as it possible

- Tell me what cards are best for goal 1), and are needed to goal 2)

Turn 3-4-5 (mid-game) your aims:
1) Survive
2) Cast game ending bomb

To 1) survive you must: discard key parts vs combo or kill creatures or destroy prison/lock, as cabal therapy was mention as discard part, you need removal to win vs tempo, or break lock vs CB which is cheap (not more then 3 mana) so Ugin doesn't help here nor Karn, that's why this deck running full set of Deeds.
2) Casting game ending bomb - What is better then PrimeTime when you have 6-7 mana ? I can't name any better card here.

GSZ are just 5 to 8 PrimeTimes nad 5 to 8 Vets, along with some bullets like Elves.

Karns have their merits here - they are mostly anti-walkers, anti-needle and anti-land, anti-humility, which are catch-all card. Sure Ugin would increase number of sweepers in deck, but without option to answer colorless creatures/lands your MUD matchup will be much worst along with new hype deck - Eldrazi Stompy.

Give me good argumentation why you want 2 Ugins and no GSZ, naming deck loose is not a good one.

[Ricardio]

I play a far amount of nic fit so I understand how it works. I issue is with there being a suboptimal number of green creatures for the 4 gsz along with 4 deeds when I believe the deck can drop one and support an Ugin. I was making suggestions and asking for opinions. Not questioning the very foundation of the deck.

[Fatal]

@Ricardio

It's a hybrid and need different look then Nic Fit. It's much closer to Nic Fit - Scapeshift, so it's Control-Combo Deck. This mean you have some main plan to combo out, and options to support it.

GSZ - > Cutting key parts from combo isn't good really.

[Ricardio]

I just feel like when you gsz, its either for prime time or vet with no middle ground. 4 seems excessive and slot are tight as is. I suggest cutting some number or upping the green creature count to accommodate.

If this deck is to function the way you would like it as instructed in the primer:
Vet early, removal mid, prime time late, skyspaghetti end. Chunk out the deck is base it off that game plan. going as big as possible.

I am genuinely interested in this deck doing well and would like to help. I will have to put it together irl or mtgo and try changes that I suggested.

My Initial draft:

[10 G - 3 GSZ]
4 veteran
2 wood elf
2 solemn
4 prime time
1 newlamog
1 koz, BoT
1 emrakul

2 Karn

3 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
3 deed
3 SDT
4 decay
1 deluge

[23 lands (+EYE, its a spell) ]
4 glimmer
4 cloud
1 karakas
1 p. tower
1 eye
4 forest
2 swamp
4 verdant
3 bayou

SB [YOLOBOARD]

3 Seize
2 Surgical
1 Savannah
1 Teeg
2 K grip
2 Needle
1 Platinum Emp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle
1 Glissa

I am sure crop rotates can go somewhere.

[Fatal]

Interesting list I like 1 more big Eldrazi, lets take a look closer:

primer list vs proposed:
-1 GSZ
+1 Nulamog

-1 E.Witness
+1 Abrupt Decay

-1 Deed
+1 Toxic Deluge

-1 Savannah
-1 Fetchland (*)
+1 Wood Elves

(*) 59 cards ? I'm missing something ? You probably miss -1 Green Fetchland, cutting two lands will screw many hands. So I assume 1 fetchland is missing.

Overlay we replace E.Witness for Decay (I'm not okay with it - E.Witness is key card IMO, I even wrote somewhere everytime I side it out I regret - have even few replays with it), Deed for Toxic Deluge (I'm ok with it - it's more meta dependent - if Miracles are more popular run full set of Deeds, if Midrange/Aggro like new Eldrazi - run 1 Toxic Deluge to speed up mass removal),1 Dual for 1 Wood Elves (not sure about it, but if you cut 1 GSZ it's reasonable, I had many times GSZ for then just to speed up a turn, problem with double Elves is that you use them mostly only once - in turn 3/4 - or earlier if you trigger explorer, after that you want a beef not a ramp, so drawing second one is like second Sylvan Library - useless), and biggest change - 1 GSZ for Newlamog (let give it a spin - I'm looking for your feedback here how your tests was going).
Looking forward how your mana base will polarize on initial mana, maybe that's the hint:
- cut 1 dual + 1 wood elves, -1 GSz, + 1 beef overlay. Other changes are rather cosmetic and meta dependent.

[Ricardio]

Interesting list I like 1 more big Eldrazi, lets take a look closer:

primer list vs proposed:
-1 GSZ
+1 Nulamog

-1 E.Witness
+1 Abrupt Decay

-1 Deed
+1 Toxic Deluge

-1 Savannah
-1 Fetchland (*)
+1 Wood Elves

(*) 59 cards ? I'm missing something ? You probably miss -1 Green Fetchland, cutting two lands will screw many hands. So I assume 1 fetchland is missing.

Overlay we replace E.Witness for Decay (I'm not okay with it - E.Witness is key card IMO, I even wrote somewhere everytime I side it out I regret - have even few replays with it), Deed for Toxic Deluge (I'm ok with it - it's more meta dependent - if Miracles are more popular run full set of Deeds, if Midrange/Aggro like new Eldrazi - run 1 Toxic Deluge to speed up mass removal),1 Dual for 1 Wood Elves (not sure about it, but if you cut 1 GSZ it's reasonable, I had many times GSZ for then just to speed up a turn, problem with double Elves is that you use them mostly only once - in turn 3/4 - or earlier if you trigger explorer, after that you want a beef not a ramp, so drawing second one is like second Sylvan Library - useless), and biggest change - 1 GSZ for Newlamog (let give it a spin - I'm looking for your feedback here how your tests was going).
Looking forward how your mana base will polarize on initial mana, maybe that's the hint:
- cut 1 dual + 1 wood elves, -1 GSz, + 1 beef overlay. Other changes are rather cosmetic and meta dependent.

Oh, ya, probably move the savannah main or E-wit as a consideration. I can revamp accordingly.

Im like 100 tix off this on mtgo. probably just buy it and run it.

[Hmmm_Really?]

Im like 100 tix off this on mtgo. probably just buy it and run it.

Why don't you test it for free on Xmage before you drop the $$?

[Fatal]

Yes, playtesting on proxies (in play group), or some platform is best practice to avoid awkward moments buying cards you won't use again. Personally I like this line of testing:

Each step gives answer is it worth, and each modification is tested this way:
1) solitaire on some platform like Cockatrice, like 100 starting hands, and next 10 turns.
2) Some basic scenario against most decks
3) Blind testing vs open field on some platform
4) Playtesting in avanue group on proxies
5) Buying cards testing in tournament environment
6) Choose as deck on big tournaments +100 ppl

After so many time I'm still between 4-5 point, testing many variants like NO, Living Wish, more Eldrazi, Urborg/Coffers etc.

[Ricardio]

Why don't you test it for free on Xmage before you drop the $$?

The voice of reason. I gotta fight, for my right, to SPPEEEEEND MONEY.


Yes, playtesting on proxies (in play group), or some platform is best practice to avoid awkward moments buying cards you won't use again. Personally I like this line of testing:

Each step gives answer is it worth, and each modification is tested this way:
1) solitaire on some platform like Cockatrice, like 100 starting hands, and next 10 turns.
2) Some basic scenario against most decks
3) Blind testing vs open field on some platform
4) Playtesting in avanue group on proxies
5) Buying cards testing in tournament environment
6) Choose as deck on big tournaments +100 ppl

After so many time I'm still between 4-5 point, testing many variants like NO, Living Wish, more Eldrazi, Urborg/Coffers etc.

The cards I need are cards I would play in other decks and I understand that I should be careful but damn it I don't want to sometimes throw money at something I will find entertaining.

[leo-the-druid]

Hey guys, any thoughts about Titania, protector of Argoth ?

It's an extra target for GSZ, it gives ramp, and if you get back a fetch it gives you an extra creature right away.

I wouldnt know what to cut for it though. Perhaps 1 Prime time or 1 Simulacrum.

[apple713]

Hey guys, any thoughts about Titania, protector of Argoth ?

It's an extra target for GSZ, it gives ramp, and if you get back a fetch it gives you an extra creature right away.

I wouldnt know what to cut for it though. Perhaps 1 Prime time or 1 Simulacrum.

that's the issue. You can't cut something that's much lower on the curve that ramps because you need those to get to sustainable mana. Its not good enough to cut a prime time either because its more likely than not he'll win more games than titania will.

[Ricardio]

Titania is a card that goes better with sylvan safekeeper and Kotr in an entirely different deck. She is 5 mana do nothing in this deck. As for cutting a prime time, that is insane. Remarkable the strongest card in the deck when it comes to getting his buddies out.

[Arianrhod]

A couple of speculative lists. I was joking about Show and Tell, but the blue list actually doens't look that bad.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou

//sb
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Trinisphere
2 Warping Wail
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Nether Void
1 Krosan Grip
1 Platinum Emperion

--------------

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
4 Primeval Titan
1 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Show and Tell
2 Toxic Deluge

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island

//sb
2 Trinisphere
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Krosan Grip
2 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm

As always, tuning and tweaking. Probably going to test out the blue list and see if it actually works. The Eldrazi version has a better midrange plan, but the Show and Tell list is a lot more focused and has fewer issues with internal consistency.

[Ricardio]

that blue list gives me the weirdest boner. coiling oracle in a prime time vet post list. HNNNNNNNNG

and im spent.

[Arianrhod]

Tested for a couple hours vs Shardless and Grixis Delver. The Show and Tell list is sadly too easily disrupted. When it got to do sweet things it felt sweet, but it really didn't feel that good...so it's back to the Eldrazi version with me. Only did a game or two with that version tonight, but the Deathrites and Endbringer are on watch and will likely be replaced.

[Fatal]

I found that tri-color is too much for Eldrazi build. 1 Wasteland can blind all your blue spells.

[Ricardio]

I found that tri-color is too much for Eldrazi build. 1 Wasteland can blind all your blue spells.

Isnt the waste/drazi version basically BGc(tri-colo) ?

On another note, as the meta slows down, if we become the waypoint between turbo and colorless, all the strengths, none of the weaknesses, we will ascend to the top of the eldrazi food pyramid. I think that's where we wanna be.

[Arianrhod]

Isnt the waste/drazi version basically BGc(tri-colo) ?

On another note, as the meta slows down, if we become the waypoint between turbo and colorless, all the strengths, none of the weaknesses, we will ascend to the top of the eldrazi food pyramid. I think that's where we wanna be.

Yeah, that was actually my idea for this version of Nic Fit. Go between Nic Fit and 12post -- gain the strengths of the absurd lategame while maintaining the strengths of Veteran/Therapy and Deed/Deluge.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, that was actually my idea for this version of Nic Fit. Go between Nic Fit and 12post -- gain the strengths of the absurd lategame while maintaining the strengths of Veteran/Therapy and Deed/Deluge.

oh im giddy. lets make this sob work.

This is my latest list. needs work but i actually beat rug delver

http://i.imgur.com/jFa4ZPd.png

[Fatal]

Nice one, how you feel with 2 Sakura and 2 Elves without E.Witness did you have situations where E.Witness where needed ?

Also only 2 tops is debatable - I found that every hand with top is much stronger even vs fast matchups.

[Ricardio]

Nice one, how you feel with 2 Sakura and 2 Elves without E.Witness did you have situations where E.Witness where needed ?

Also only 2 tops is debatable - I found that every hand with top is much stronger even vs fast matchups.

I always felt I needed more ramp to get to primeval titan so I went up on early creatures. I originally had ewit in there but double G is hard and I wanted to get to my top end asap.
I guess 3 top is better, I just need to find room. The big 3 eldrazi are necessary so those are staying. IDK if you can see the sb.
http://i.imgur.com/5NOgZ3f.png

[Ricardio]

Nice one, how you feel with 2 Sakura and 2 Elves without E.Witness did you have situations where E.Witness where needed ?

Also only 2 tops is debatable - I found that every hand with top is much stronger even vs fast matchups.

I always felt I needed more ramp to get to primeval titan so I went up on early creatures. I originally had ewit in there but double G is hard and I wanted to get to my top end asap.
I guess 3 top is better, I just need to find room. The big 3 eldrazi are necessary so those are staying. IDK if you can see the sb.
http://i.imgur.com/jFa4ZPd.png

The solemns have been meh and I hate getting wastelanded.

[Fatal]

I can see it. Not sure how you want to win vs Elves, Burn and Reanimator. If you don't like Solemn you can try using Oracle of Mul Daya in this slot. It also ramp and give CA in 4cmc slot.

[Ricardio]

I can see it. Not sure how you want to win vs Elves, Burn and Reanimator. If you don't like Solemn you can try using Oracle of Mul Daya in this slot. It also ramp and give CA in 4cmc slot.

ya, the sb is sloppy to say the least. I want ugin in somewhere. probably mainboard as a 5th wipe, personally. Do you have a revised sb list to suggest?
I will try solemn for a little more but as you can see I had to go up on basics very hard. Half-heartedly thought about throwing in a skyshroud claim haha

[Arianrhod]

You think all 3 goddrazi are necessary? I've been fine with just Kozi and Emmy, but I guess I could see a world where Ulamog is nice to have as well. I definitely wouldn't try that with fewer than 4 Titans, though. I personally still don't really like the idea of jamming all 4 Titans, although I am pretty comfortable with 2. I kind of want a couple 5-drops in the deck just to make Wood Elves curve nicer when it's played -- Elves curves into Primeval when Zenithed, which is very nice, but just playing it out on turn 3 doesn't feel the best.

How has your color distribution been with that mana base? Not sure how many games you've played beyond RUG Delver, if any. I feel like Phyrexian Tower and Karakas are redundant, you don't really need both of them. Either one lets you go infinite with Emmy. I ended up cutting Tower from my list because it was pretty underwhelming for me -- and I have Matter Reshapers that are additional good sac fodder.

[Ricardio]

You think all 3 goddrazi are necessary? I've been fine with just Kozi and Emmy, but I guess I could see a world where Ulamog is nice to have as well. I definitely wouldn't try that with fewer than 4 Titans, though. I personally still don't really like the idea of jamming all 4 Titans, although I am pretty comfortable with 2. I kind of want a couple 5-drops in the deck just to make Wood Elves curve nicer when it's played -- Elves curves into Primeval when Zenithed, which is very nice, but just playing it out on turn 3 doesn't feel the best.

How has your color distribution been with that mana base? Not sure how many games you've played beyond RUG Delver, if any. I feel like Phyrexian Tower and Karakas are redundant, you don't really need both of them. Either one lets you go infinite with Emmy. I ended up cutting Tower from my list because it was pretty underwhelming for me -- and I have Matter Reshapers that are additional good sac fodder.

im in on 4 titans no matter what. its the selling point for me.
I originally had tusk in but is there a 5 cmc G creature that ramps we can look into?
Yeah, but karakas lets you infinite with emrakul and nets value alongside the other 2 drazi. Tower has been exceptionally underwhelming, I wish the BG utility land from INN wasn't so mana intensive.
I haven't tried reshaper, how do you like it? I just don't like how its not G.

[Arianrhod]

im in on 4 titans no matter what. its the selling point for me.
I originally had tusk in but is there a 5 cmc G creature that ramps we can look into?
Yeah, but karakas lets you infinite with emrakul and nets value alongside the other 2 drazi. Tower has been exceptionally underwhelming, I wish the BG utility land from INN wasn't so mana intensive.
I haven't tried reshaper, how do you like it? I just don't like how its not G.

I adore Reshaper and TKS. I'm also trying to parrot my original Scapewish design, and have a reasonable beatdown plan to occupy opponents while I quietly ramp in the background.

Realistically speaking, I think that the only actual difference this probably makes in terms of gameplay ramifications is that I likely have a better combo matchup than you do, because Reshaper and TKS can clock a combo player very quickly once they're locked out (and TKS is also more disruption, which is great). I don't think our Delver matchups are that different: you have 4 Decays, but I have the combat step. Grixis Delver does NOT appreciate the Eldrazi. I've been in the position to race them several times, largely thanks to TKS.

You're likely better vs Miracles, but I think that this version just crushes Miracles regardless, so that's fine. Your topdecks are better than mine, so you probably gain an edge vs Shardless. Overall Shardless has been positive, but only very slightly. Hymn to Tourach is insane against this version, and Liliana of the Veil is also a huge pain in the ass. In a world with a lot of Shardless, we probably need to look into some number of Obstinate Baloths.

Titania is the only green 5-drop creature that ramps that I can think of, but that only actually ramps if there's a fetch in your graveyard. I would be surprised if there isn't something else that I just don't know. Ondu Giant might be worth a look, since Z@4=5 and that ramps with a reasonable body. At that point, though, it might be worse than just Z@3 for Wood Elves #2. Solemn was also very underwhelming for me, which was kind of sad because I like the idea of him. He's colorless, which allows you to keep Post-heavy hands and still get colors, and he's just solid value: he's always a 2-for-1, and he's very commonly a 3-for-1, which is the kind of card advantage that Nic Fit thrives on.

Other green 5-drops that come to mind as being playable include Acidic Slime, Kodama of North Tree (the shroud one), Spiritmonger (ish), Vulturous Zombie, and Overbeing of Myth (although GGGGG is kind of obnoxious). Not green, but possibly good enough would be Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Bloodgift Demon, and Shadowborn Demon. Overbeing is probably the best of all of these, but hardcasting her is going to be a bit on the awkward side. If you just Zenith her up, though, she's probably really good.

I'm kind of wanting to try out a pair of Reality Smashers. I'll probably test them out and see how they feel. I don't expect them to be worth considering for your more top-end version, but for my midrange plan, they could be quite good.

[Ricardio]

TKS is really good but 9 tix a piece online and I know that price will diminish soon so in the meantime, subpar list ahoy, but ideally 4 in the 75.
I will try some number of matter reshaper and maybe look into ondu giant. Titania doesn't seem like where we want to be.
none of those other 5 drops do what I want. tusk seems like the ideal 5 cmc for now.

I will draw up an updated list and see where I am at.

[Fatal]

@Arianrhod

As for beatdown midrange plan I would use Reality Smasher along with Titania with cutting some removal. You can't have all:
- if you focus on more clock keep 4-5 removal spells and pack more beaters
- if you focus on more control version keep 7-8 removal spells with less beaters
It's quite simple.

Now let's talk about Tower and SB, I would rather cut Karakas before Tower here are the reasons:
Tower can give you necessary mana boost vs combo to cast Titan much earlier which will be as fast (or even faster), then Beatdown from 4/4 TKS / Mattery Reshaper.

Let's count it Titan cost 6 so it can be 2turns later then TKS - for sure TKS is better vs combo since it sculpt hand which is really great, but it can't end game faster then titan.

Let's cut off all ramp since you can ramp to both cards:

turn 4 TKS(cast)
turn 5 TKS - 4 dmg
turn 6 TKS - 8 dmg - Casting titan
turn 7 TKS - 12 dmg - Titan 6 dmg and have enough mana to search Emrakul
turn 8 TKS - 16 dmg - Titan 12 dmg + Emrakul cast end the game...

So all in all Titan will be faster, but as you point out it's important to sculpt opponent hand.

It's 5th sacrifice outlet sometimes very important for Veteran.
Karakas is just closing one of the routes for S&T - > Fattie, and helps a lot vs Reanimator.

Last word about Mattery Reshaper - it's probably very nice with Sphere or Resistance as hate piece, can be put on instant with Tower.. :-)

Ondu Giant is crap - I would rather play Skyshroud Claim which isn't bad card ! You can cast it for 4 mana, then Decay/Discard same turn, pure advantage for 2 mana, when you have 4 available.

@Ricardio

Talking about sb:
still using (same list):
MD: 3 Abrupt Decay
MD: 4 P. Deed / still can't replace for 1 Deluge... some many times I want to blow some Enchantment/Artifact like Chalice/Trini/CB etc..
MD: 1 Savannah

SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine (Eldrazi / Aggro / BUG )
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm (Elves, Burn, Aggro )
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog (Reanimator, GY hate, Loam base decks)
SB: 4 Crop Rotation (Utility for Bojuka, Tower, Karakas, also a weapon vs Wastelands)
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction (Reanimator, Tin Fins etc - GY hate, combo piece)
SB: 2 Duress (Combo)
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg (Combo)
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament (dedicated vs ANT and good vs some narrow combo decks - like mirror XD)
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage (Dark Depths decks)
SB: 1 Glissa, the Traitor (Eldrazi)

Crop rotation connected with Tower is like a rite flame, and on veteran like a dark ritual which gives 4 mana. It's sometimes must have to cast same turn duress + GSZ for gaddock. If you don't play vs permission deck, or you cycle lands vs opponent wasteland crop is right direction.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes

//sb
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Engineered Plague

This is where I'm at now. More testing to follow.

Also, if you want an additional ramp spell, I'd suggest Primal Growth over Skyshroud Claim. I only suggested Ondu Giant because he wanted another GSZable ramp guy.

[Ricardio]

4 gsz just seems too many and 6 basics doesn't seem like enough.

I think yours is a more midrange eldrazi ramp than nic fitdrazi ramp really.

4 Vet
4 SDT
4 Therapy
2 Crop Rotat
3 Decay
1 Sakura TE
2 Wood Elf
3 Deed
1 deluge
2 Solemn
1 Tusk
4 Prime Time
3 GSZ
1 Koz, Dist
1 Newlamog
1 Emrakul
(36)

1 Eye
4 Glim
4 Cloud
6 forest
2 swamp
2 bayou
1 P Tower
2 Verd
2 Windswept

SB
1 decay
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Teeg
1 Scooz
1 T Stage
1 B Bog
2 Needle
2 Surgical
3 Seize

this is my most updated and what im going to try on mtgo when I get a chance.

[Arianrhod]

I'd probably shave a Top for a Sylvan Library personally.

4 Zeniths is my response to having 2 Primevals. With the full 4 Titans I guess I could see shaving one being correct, but being able to get Explorer early or Titan late is just so good.

If I find myself running out of basics to grab, I can cut the Misty for a 7th -- I just wanted an extra shuffle for Top.

[Ricardio]

I'd probably shave a Top for a Sylvan Library personally.

4 Zeniths is my response to having 2 Primevals. With the full 4 Titans I guess I could see shaving one being correct, but being able to get Explorer early or Titan late is just so good.

If I find myself running out of basics to grab, I can cut the Misty for a 7th -- I just wanted an extra shuffle for Top.

I will try a library over the third top

[Fatal]

I have idea is Genesis Wave as 1 of was tested as CA in so heavy pernament base ? :-)

Let's see most creatures have etb or are pernaments not sure is it just a win more.. but as 1-of can be quite good.

Deed/creatures/lands actually only GSZ and discard will be omitted.

[Ricardio]

I have idea is Genesis Wave as 1 of was tested as CA in so heavy pernament base ? :-)

Let's see most creatures have etb or are pernaments not sure is it just a win more.. but as 1-of can be quite good.

Deed/creatures/lands actually only GSZ and discard will be omitted.

I fear that is not where we want to be. Our top end wants to be cast outside of prime time, maybe you are on to something though.
resolving prime time earlier is the plan we should be on.

[Fatal]

I know, I always wanted to cast Wave in legacy for 6 :P and did it :-D. Actually it was win more card (or a bomb like overcosted Titan) casted it for 6 hopped for Titan get 3 lands, Karn, Eldrazi, and therapy.. so not so good - 9 mana spell should win right away like Eldrazi. Just liked synergy which Wave has with all deck:
Deeds, Therapies, etb creatures, SDT, Walkers and LANDS etc..

I replace one Solemn with it but probably gonna back, after first color screw :P.

[Arianrhod]

I fear that is not where we want to be. Our top end wants to be cast outside of prime time, maybe you are on to something though.
resolving prime time earlier is the plan we should be on.

This is the crux of my issue with the 4x Titan plan. The deck REALLY wants to resolve the earliest Primeval Titan it possibly can -- I'm fully agreed with that. To resolve a turn 3 or turn 4 Titan, though, you need a buttload of ramp, and you need to make sure it goes through because by the time you've ramped hard enough to resolve a Titan on 3/4, said Titan is probably your last card in hand. This is why I prefer a more midrange approach. Playing/Zenithing a Titan on turn 5 or turn 6 is every bit as good as casting one on 3/4 if 5/6 is a guaranteed stick, in my opinion. I'd rather run them out of resources and then kill them -- I think that just bum rushing to a Titan that there's no promise will resolve is an inferior gameplan. It might be more fun, perhaps, but it's much more dangerous in the context of winning games.

Maybe this means we should look into Cavern of Souls. I do think that there are merits to a 4x Titan plan, not the least of which being a faster goldfish by 1-2 full turns. The challenge is found in ensuring the goldfish vs interactive opponents.

[Ricardio]

This is the crux of my issue with the 4x Titan plan. The deck REALLY wants to resolve the earliest Primeval Titan it possibly can -- I'm fully agreed with that. To resolve a turn 3 or turn 4 Titan, though, you need a buttload of ramp, and you need to make sure it goes through because by the time you've ramped hard enough to resolve a Titan on 3/4, said Titan is probably your last card in hand. This is why I prefer a more midrange approach. Playing/Zenithing a Titan on turn 5 or turn 6 is every bit as good as casting one on 3/4 if 5/6 is a guaranteed stick, in my opinion. I'd rather run them out of resources and then kill them -- I think that just bum rushing to a Titan that there's no promise will resolve is an inferior gameplan. It might be more fun, perhaps, but it's much more dangerous in the context of winning games.

Maybe this means we should look into Cavern of Souls. I do think that there are merits to a 4x Titan plan, not the least of which being a faster goldfish by 1-2 full turns. The challenge is found in ensuring the goldfish vs interactive opponents.

well im 2-0 now with the deck. just beat grixis deathver

ive only played two 2mans. otherwise its theory crafted

[Arianrhod]

well im 2-0 now with the deck. just beat grixis deathver

ive only played two 2mans. otherwise its theory crafted

Yeah, I mean, most of what I say is theorycraft as well. I played the deck at Mythic last month and missed top 8 by one round, but I'm pretty sure that list was terribly built, so, /shrug. Regardless of anything else, I think we can all safely agree that there is a very strong version of this deck somewhere. The trick is uncovering it.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I mean, most of what I say is theorycraft as well. I played the deck at Mythic last month and missed top 8 by one round, but I'm pretty sure that list was terribly built, so, /shrug. Regardless of anything else, I think we can all safely agree that there is a very strong version of this deck somewhere. The trick is uncovering it.

Lemme get my homie, Dora, because we finna do some deep ass explorin'

[Echelon]

I know, I always wanted to cast Wave in legacy for 6 :P and did it :-D. Actually it was win more card (or a bomb like overcosted Titan) casted it for 6 hopped for Titan get 3 lands, Karn, Eldrazi, and therapy.. so not so good - 9 mana spell should win right away like Eldrazi. Just liked synergy which Wave has with all deck:
Deeds, Therapies, etb creatures, SDT, Walkers and LANDS etc..

I replace one Solemn with it but probably gonna back, after first color screw :P.

A couple of years ago, during my first ever Legacy outing with a silly ass Elves! deck (which had Genesis Wave as the only non-permanent card in the deck) I cast it for X = 16 (I ran 4 Priest of Titania and 4 Elvish Archdruid, 3 Concordant Crossroads and the usual untap suite) or so and hit the Emrakul I had in my deck at the time vs. some D&T pilot on turn 3/4. Beat that!

Game 2 I believe I just hardcast it on turn 3 via GSZ for Fierce Empath. I shit you not. Both games it was made possible by a Concordant Crossroads and the utmost good end of variance. The guy did have a Karakas out, but after I pointed out that I'd just recast Emrakul and get another extra turn he conceided.

After that my beginners' luck wore off and I had to play Glimpse of Nature and Natural Order like every other normal person. How I miss being a Muggle (when it comes to tournament Magic).

[Bobmans]

Like i said in the "other" thread i did some testing with EldraziNicFit. Nothing to special, but i somewhat like the interactions and wanna give it more quality time. This is the list after slight tweaks. After more test runs i will read thru the thread some more and see what you guys have evaluated, then compare it and adjust accordingly. Going for a more grindy game with this list.
Perhaps the Matter Reshapers are not needed. If so, +1 TKS, +1 Titan and going to 60 main.
Also the Two Towers instead of Eye of Ugin. This because PrimeTime can lock the game with Tusk/Witness and dodge the need of eldrazi's. I did want Tusk in here because i found that going gridy requires some form of lifegain (outside of Glimmer) and Tusk has always been a good friends that helps one in desperate need.

Main
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek,the Great Distortion

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Warping Wail
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cloudpost
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Wastes
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Llanowar Wastes

Sideboard
2 Warping Wail
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Memoricide
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm

[Ricardio]

Like i said in the "other" thread i did some testing with EldraziNicFit. Nothing to special, but i somewhat like the interactions and wanna give it more quality time. This is the list after slight tweaks. After more test runs i will read thru the thread some more and see what you guys have evaluated, then compare it and adjust accordingly. Going for a more grindy game with this list.
Perhaps the Matter Reshapers are not needed. If so, +1 TKS, +1 Titan and going to 60 main.
Also the Two Towers instead of Eye of Ugin. This because PrimeTime can lock the game with Tusk/Witness and dodge the need of eldrazi's. I did want Tusk in here because i found that going gridy requires some form of lifegain (outside of Glimmer) and Tusk has always been a good friends that helps one in desperate need.

Main
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek,the Great Distortion

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Warping Wail
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cloudpost
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Wastes
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Llanowar Wastes

Sideboard
2 Warping Wail
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Memoricide
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm

So I think we are at the diverging point. 4 prime time vs midrange eldrazi.

[Bobmans]

So I think we are at the diverging point. 4 prime time vs midrange eldrazi.
Note that i haven't spend much time on the deck. I was looking more into the Devoid splash rather then the TurboNicFit concept of Fatal. Not because it i think either one is better. I mean, i like the list Fatal build. But i just want to jam like i jam it.

[Ricardio]

Note that i haven't spend much time on the deck. I was looking more into the Devoid splash rather then the TurboNicFit concept of Fatal. Not because it i think either one is better. I mean, i like the list Fatal build. But i just want to jam like i jam it.

Ya, im looking to go big and win. midrange is just worse than the rhino deck from my experience.

[Arianrhod]

Ya, im looking to go big and win. midrange is just worse than the rhino deck from my experience.

It's possible that the correct approach lies somewhere in the area of cutting the Reshapers, but keeping the Thought-Knots. Undecided about the impact of the Smashers...everyone I usually test with is being dodgy, so I don't know if I'm even going to get to use them before Mythic. At this point barring further data from you or any of the other MODO players, I'm probably just going to jam my current list on Saturday and see what happens. Ye olde trial by fire.

The thing with the Reshapers is that they're card flow, which I like a lot. They always at least draw a card (unless they eat a STP, which I am 100% okay with). Sometimes they drop another Post into play, or a Deed, or Top, or etc. I'm a big fan of creatures that draw cards, since it's one of the better ways for Nic Fit to keep up with blue decks. I'm also very scared of running out of gas in this deck. But, maybe the full set of TKS into the full set of Primevals is the way to go. I'm just terrified of basically being "all-in" on Primeval.

[Fatal]

Tested a little Eldrazi Nic Fit Midrange list by Arianrhod (little tweaked):

(19 creatures + 4 GSZ)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Wood Elves
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
1 Tragtusk
2 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4(discard)
4 Cabal Therapy

(5 removal)
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Pernicious Deed

(4 CQ)
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top

(24 lands)
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes

I bumped 4-5 cmc creatures (TKS mostly also 5 cmc green creature to smooth curve) cutting Mattery Reshapers and Sakura which I never liked here. Since plan A is a beatdown I also cut 1 Big Eldrazi and keep only Emrakul vs grindfest.

Few words:
- I miss Abrupt decay's MD vs early agressive decks (Delver) and as an answer vs early CB which stops Vet resolve. Shaving uncounterable removal isn't good. Sure In midrange deck rocks, but then you NEED to resolve Titan/Tragtusk to get life back to not die to bolt, after delver beating.
- Eldrazi Stompy is faster and have better tools to fight combo. Every deck where I resolved and use Deed was win, twice I couldn't cast Deluge as an answer to opponents creatures. Titans was all star in this matchups (bigger then Eldrazi and giving back needed life, also ending game fast with Post->Emrakul.
- BUG matchups was better then standard list, they can't fight overgrown threads with high CMC (>3). Missing few times Decay which also hit Liliana which give me trouble.
- Miracles matchups was worst Terminus started to bacame a thread. SB with Wails helps here. Had some problems with Counterbalance, TKS was very good in this matchups. Countering Smasher with CB (Brainstorm in resp to put FoW on top was painful).
- ANT matchups wasn't much better loses G1, G2 and G3 was dependent on SB cards, TKS was again very good here (as I predicted). Smashers gives a decent clock and could end game faster then with standard version. (I think stompy version is better here).
- Sylvan Library was quite decent but it doesn't survive Deed, so sometimes you forced to 2 for 2.

Conclusion:
Midrange Eldrazi is something like Eldrazi Stompy without Lock piece, so If you more focused on beating Midrange and still try to fight against slow controls it's not bad deck. It's still a underdog vs combo. Good sides are that you mostly beat most aggresive decks but you need an answer vs early delver if it's countered - game will be lost.

In short version:
Eldrazi Midrange Nic Fit - Bad vs combo, great vs midrange, mid good vs slow controls and tempo
4 Titan Nic feat. 8 Post - Bad vs combo, mid good vs midrange, great vs slow controls and tempo

[Arianrhod]

I think my problem with Abrupt Decay in this deck is that we can't run Painful Truths -- I tried Read the Bones and never felt like it was enough. Like with Decay you spend all of your time 1-for-1ing, which is fine, but then you run out of gas and are completely dependent on topdecks. Admittedly, our topdecks are better than most decks -- but there's a lot of air too, especially since the deck runs 24-25 lands.

Reshaper is actually great against Delver, so cutting those guys might've injured that matchup. I definitely wouldn't have cut the Kozilek -- Kozilek is my reason for playing this version, like how 4x Titan is for Ricardio.

How were the Smashers overall? I know you commented about them getting CB'd by Miracles, but that can happen with Titan, too.

Sounds like TKS was insane for you. I only own 3 currently but may need to look into a 4th.

Hmm. Going to think on this for a while and post again in a bit.

[Ricardio]

I think my problem with Abrupt Decay in this deck is that we can't run Painful Truths -- I tried Read the Bones and never felt like it was enough. Like with Decay you spend all of your time 1-for-1ing, which is fine, but then you run out of gas and are completely dependent on topdecks. Admittedly, our topdecks are better than most decks -- but there's a lot of air too, especially since the deck runs 24-25 lands.

Reshaper is actually great against Delver, so cutting those guys might've injured that matchup. I definitely wouldn't have cut the Kozilek -- Kozilek is my reason for playing this version, like how 4x Titan is for Ricardio.

How were the Smashers overall? I know you commented about them getting CB'd by Miracles, but that can happen with Titan, too.

Sounds like TKS was insane for you. I only own 3 currently but may need to look into a 4th.

Hmm. Going to think on this for a while and post again in a bit.

I get paid tomorrow, I may be able to justify dropping 40 on a playset of TKS since they seem so insane.

I think abrupt decay is absolutely necessary. playing less than 4 in your 75 is bad.

[Fatal]

Played more games against Shardless with Midrange and ... it was 3-2 for him. I'm disappointment.

TKS is great vs decks which have cards on hand, when they discard all cards with Liliana or Suspend Visions, it's really bad, not worth playing 4-of..decrease to 3, specially when Liliana is on table.
Smashers was great probably MVP until goyfs wasn't 5/6..

The biggest problem was Liliana itself protected by Goyfs. Paying 6-7 life for killing 1 goyf was a mess. Two games which I won was by Titans - resolved Titan (which was instant killed by Lili on table, but found Eye + Cloudpost which gives me win). He was running Pulse and Deluge himself MD, with cantrips and Visions boost he can time it much better. Didn't suspect that Goyfs and fast Lili are such a problem for Eldrazi.

Didn't have problems with mana, but I found that it ramps slower (maybe because ramping to 6 mana wasn't plan A).
Here is a nice found from me to bump speed which gives me edge in one game: Wolfir Silverheart. I think I will rebuild Midrange version to find place for second one. It's gives edge with Smasher to 9/9 Trample which can trample over oversided goyf. It also pair nice with later mana dorks (Vet / Wood Elves).

[Bobmans]

Wolfir Silverheart

Finally.. someone else sees the potential. 12 shared Power for 5 mana is nothing to sneeze at. Especially if you can add "other" statics with it.

[Ricardio]

im gonna keep working on the 4 pt version. that seems the most powerful. the lands matchup seems very bad but I assume that not a matchup we can look at till the deck has a foundation.

[Fatal]

@Ricardio

I agree, I also have feelings that 4 PT version is much better, Midrange just lack of powe IMO. Lands matchup isn't so abyssal if you have proper sideboard. For sure it's unfavorable.
Here is the line play: GSZ and Vets are MVP here - fetch basics as soon as possible, if they combo out before turn 5-6 .. nothing you can do. Glimmer should give you turn to survive (unless punishing fire). Karns and Titans (from mana are later plan). Keep his Exploration and Moxes out of bay with Decay's and Deed. Fetching Karakas isn't bad with Titan. After first Titan resolve and untap - should be ok. Neverless I win g1 only vs not great hands (slow one) from R/G lands. Discarding Gamble is priority.

After SB it's much easier. Use Surgical Extraction and Crop Rotation vs his DD. Mostly he will side out Karakas (useless vs Eldrazis from mana), so your own Marit Lage will stop his combo plan. Punishing should be quite easy to handle (same plan -> basics -> Titan/Karn.
It's very grindy matchup.

G3 is more tricky since they bring Karakas back. Everything depends how good hand they have, and does they loam DD/TS (surgical here will be very good).

I pack 4 Crops, 1 THespian Stage,1 Bojuka Bog, 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Sadistic Sacrament vs them, side'ing out:
4 Deeds (they bring Krosan Grips always), 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Kozilek, 1 SDT.

Finished with Midrange version:
2 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wastes
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
1 Sylvan Library
2 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

[Ricardio]

Im still working on the 4 PT version. nothing huge to update but the deck is a ton of fun and plays very oddly.

GSZ might be a 4 of bc the 1 G is huge.

[Arianrhod]

I played 12post (actual UG 12post) at my local last night in an attempt to understand how that deck functions better, so that I could get a better idea of what this deck could be improved by.

For reference:

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos

4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Show and Tell

4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Wastes
1 Island

//sb
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip
2 Warping Wail
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Surgical Extraction

This was the 12post list that I ran.

Here's my quick hits from this.

-) Ancient Stirrings was goddamn amazing, and we almost certainly need to be running it. It color fixes, finds posts, or Eye when we need that, finds TKS, finds spaghetti, and finds Top (actually quite relevant).

-) Newlamog was surprisingly very strong. I'd never played with him before, and assumed that he'd come down too late to actually have a meaningful impact on the board. I was wrong. While I find it hard to believe that New Emrakul will be an upgrade (whenever we eventually get her), Newlamog and Newlizek are both definitely upgrades over their original forms. I locked Shardless out of a game by Karakas'ing Newlamog and re-casting him every turn, which felt amazing.

-) The pair of Vesuvas added a surprising amount to the manabase. Adding more CiP-tapped lands was rough sometimes, though. More on this later.

-) Cavern of Souls felt great. 12post has a bunch of ways to grab it -- while we're almost certainly not adding Expedition Map, if we do steal Ancient Stirrings tech from them, that might very easily be worth a slot. Uncounterable Primeval Titans feel fucking amazing, and you can Vesuva a Cavern to hit Eldrazi too, if you feel the need.

-) Ugin was also amazing. 2 copies felt like he was choking a bit, as I kept seeing both of them at the same time, but resolving Ugin felt like I couldn't lose anymore. He buys a tremendous amount of time and sucks up an immense amount of their resources to kill. 1 with Stirrings seems great.

-) TKS was great, but we knew that already.

What I didn't like:

Here's where I feel that we could eventually be superior to 12post. 12post's manabase felt incredibly worse than ours. I frequently had a pile of posts and no colored sources (or 1-2). Being able to put actual lands into play with Vets/Steve/Elves while still playing posts for turn is a very large advantage, I feel.

Furthermore, 12post's lack of an early sweeper is debilitating. Yes, Ugin is a great sweeper. But relying entirely on him felt really bad -- there were a number of games where my opponents had large board states and I was wishing that I had a way to clean it up that did not involve Ugin.

I also think that 12post is much more likely to durdle around than we are. We are the better Primeval Titan deck, I think, while they are the better Eye of Ugin deck. One game my Eye of Ugin got Pithing Needled. My initial reaction was "man, I wish I had Pernicious Deed." My second reaction was "oh, that really slows me down." A couple turns later I Stirrings'd into a pastaman and killed him, but I was still stuck spinning my wheels for a couple turns drawing air, when I had a Crop Rot that could've won me the game. Having a full 8 Primeval Titans prevents scenarios like that from happening, between the extra shuffle effects and the deck thinning/card advantage.

------------------

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Reality Smasher
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Toxic Deluge

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes

67

//sb
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 World Breaker
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Trinisphere
2 Warping Wail

This is where I'm at for the moment. I basically vomited all of the cards I wanted to run onto a page, and then started working on cutting. I cut down to 67 and then said fuck it, going to post it. Obviously I would like to make 6 more cuts...just trying to figure out what they are.

Oracle of Mul Daya is the counter to adding the Vesuvas since the Exploration effect counteracts the CiP-tappeds, while also being another source of card flow. It's possible, ranging to probable, that she's a cut for space -- I really would like to keep her, though, because she gives a strong Zenith bullet at 4, which I've felt like I've been missing for a long time.

The singleton Reality Smasher is there because it's a strong mid-game find with Stirrings, and I've had multiple scenarios (with both UG and earlier versions of this) where I can play + activate Eye to find and play something in the 3-6 range, but am not yet at pasta mana, and don't want a Thought-Knot.

Anyway, that's my thoughts for the moment. I'm going to go back to trying to shave this down to 61.

[Ricardio]

wow that is a lot of useful information. Great write up.

I am not sold we are a stirrings deck. I can get behind most the other stuff. 4 tks might be too many mainboard and smasher seems out of place but I understand where you are coming from. personally not a fan of oracle as its super unimpactful as well as fragile beyond belief. Vesuvas might be a good addition. I just fear we need to maintain our nicfit identity while not turning into a confused post deck.

[Arianrhod]

wow that is a lot of useful information. Great write up.

I am not sold we are a stirrings deck. I can get behind most the other stuff. 4 tks might be too many mainboard and smasher seems out of place but I understand where you are coming from. personally not a fan of oracle as its super unimpactful as well as fragile beyond belief. Vesuvas might be a good addition. I just fear we need to maintain our nicfit identity while not turning into a confused post deck.

So, the thing with Stirrings that I think is good is that it's very high quality filtering, which is something that we've been looking for and been having trouble finding -- see also the problems we've had with Read the Bones etc.

[Ricardio]

well then the argument can be made for oath of nissa: sure its 3 instead of 5 but it can get us ANY creature instead of only colorless. that includes ramp creatures and mid game it grabs the pt we need.

I am not sure what the math is between top 5 percentage and top 3 percentage along with hits compared to one another.

[Fatal]

I also found that new Ulamog is very useful vs opponent walkers, name Jace, with wall of permission when I don't have mana and time to cast Emrakul. It basically answer all nasty permanents seen those days (Humility, Bridge etc), I replaced 1 Karn with it, other Karn stay in slot.

Cavern of Souls is good add but I'm not sure that our mana base can handle it MD. I will test some on SB, but without good ways to find it it's rather cosmetic improve, Rotation is out of question with permission around. Strings/Nissa Oath have same problem as Crop rotation - it only adds consistancy not thread density - maybe I have paranoia about Miracles with their counterbalance, but many times you don't get Decay in time to break the lock. That's how mostly they play CB as fast as possible with Moon/Back2Basics slow down. You can't kill all some deeds get Counterspells/or CB trigger with 3 cmc. With Eldrazi rampaging around I would rather decrease 1 cmc spells to minimum. Plan A is to beat Miracles every time, no matter what :-).

I tested Vesuva very long, started with 12 posts in early versions (4 Vesuva, 4 Glimmerpost, 4 Cloudpost), then cut one by one until non left, just to improve mana base, taplands is really a pain vs fast decks, also connected with wastelands. U/G Post pack Needles even MD, just to have chance vs it. I played the game vs D&T where he had 3 wastelands from start, then he drew 4th with 2 ports, I couldn't relay on posts at all. I ended game casting Emrakul from lands normal lands, I just played Titan after Titan with Deed clean up after Revoker killed by Decay. Normally 12 Post can't do that and just concede. Moon/B2B getting popular in MD in miracles to improve Eldrazi Stompy matchup, which give me a hint which direction deck should go.

As you pointed rightly U/G 12 Post has their weakness, biggest one is mana base - many times you starting without colored mana and early map is be or not to be for you. Loam decks are really pain, same Knights decks. Chalice shut down 1/3 of deck, same for counterbalance, more over you can't destroy it easily. Needle isn't enough since R/G lands also have ghost quarter so it doesn't resolve problem. Their only chance is to S&T Titan, which isn't easy.

Since meta where I'm playing is having both (Chalice decks, and Miracles and now Eldrazi also) I still focusing on Titan deck in Nic Fit shell then 12Post game plan.
@Arianrhod Test vs Miracles please and give a feedback please, maybe I'm wrong.

[Ricardio]

I made some changes and got to play a few matches last night. The deck felt great. Smoother and more streamlined. Oracle was GREAT! I got to stomp miracles and cast koz with no cards in hand and then cast emrakul directly after it resolves. angry miracle players are like crack for me. this deck is coming to together great.

[Bobmans]

I made some changes and got to play a few matches last night. The deck felt great. Smoother and more streamlined. Oracle was GREAT! I got to stomp miracles and cast koz with no cards in hand and then cast emrakul directly after it resolves. angry miracle players are like crack for me. this deck is coming to together great.
Sounds S W E E T
Got some list to share?

[Ricardio]

Sounds S W E E T
Got some list to share?

3 sdt
4 vet
4 therapy
3 decay
1 STE
3 deed
1 wood elf
2 tks
4 prime time
1 karn
1 ugin
4 GSZ
1 newlamog
1 kozzy D
1 spaghetti blaster
1 eye of ugin
(35 forgetting 2 cards)
23 lands

I want to put a tabernacle somewhere
Sadly mtgo is down till this afternoon so my list may not get fixed till then.

http://i.imgur.com/lzrGpZL.png
http://i.imgur.com/lzrGpZL.png

[Arianrhod]

Karn's probably the biggest standout to me in that list. How's he been? What has he done for you? I tried one a couple iterations back and was not impressed by it.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ancient Stirrings

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes

This is where I'm at atm, after shaving some things. I had to cut the 2 maindeck Deluges to get it to 61, and I really want them back, but I don't think there's any way to accommodate them. Everything that's currently in the list, I want more.

Manabase is fluctuating atm. Just testing different configurations to see various things that I like/don't like. You can basically ignore that section of the list since it's so in flux.

[Ricardio]

Karn's probably the biggest standout to me in that list. How's he been? What has he done for you? I tried one a couple iterations back and was not impressed by it.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ancient Stirrings

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes

This is where I'm at atm, after shaving some things. I had to cut the 2 maindeck Deluges to get it to 61, and I really want them back, but I don't think there's any way to accommodate them. Everything that's currently in the list, I want more.

Manabase is fluctuating atm. Just testing different configurations to see various things that I like/don't like. You can basically ignore that section of the list since it's so in flux.

Karn has only resolved once(against mud eating a lodestone), every other time they counter or discard him. He is great in when ugin is bad and good whenever else.

I don't like all 4 TKS mb because (C) mana can be a bit rough to get sometimes. I am still not sold on this being an ancient stirrings deck. I have been thinking about explore after getting to play 4 lands in 2 turns off Oracle. I am loving this deck thus far. Running over miracles makes me tingly all over. I am nearing the point where I wanna try the deck in a league.

[Arianrhod]

Karn has only resolved once(against mud eating a lodestone), every other time they counter or discard him. He is great in when ugin is bad and good whenever else.

I don't like all 4 TKS mb because (C) mana can be a bit rough to get sometimes. I am still not sold on this being an ancient stirrings deck. I have been thinking about explore after getting to play 4 lands in 2 turns off Oracle. I am loving this deck thus far. Running over miracles makes me tingly all over. I am nearing the point where I wanna try the deck in a league.

Good!

My thoughts on specifically TKS and Stirrings:

I think that TKS has been better for me (or more consistent to cast) than it has for you because I have the basic Wastes still, which makes having a colorless source for TKS on turn 3-5 trivial. I can agree that without the Wastes, it might be a bit too hard to justify running the full set.

Stirrings is essentially Zenith 5-8 in this deck, meaning that it is good early when developing (finds Top, TKS, or posts, or further colored sources), and as a topdeck (finds any of the finisher eldrazi, ugin, or eye of ugin). It's also a way to reset our Tops, which is something that I've periodically had issues with. I also considered Grisly Salvage, but binning the things that you don't take is a steep cost, and it can't find Top.

[Ricardio]

im running 2/2 tks right now and its pretty good.

The more I play this deck, the more I find it hilariously entertaining. The fact we run over miracles so damn hard is amazing. drawing 6+ cards with Koz D trigger.
OH baby, a man can only get so erect.

[Bobmans]

Currently i have done some tweaks based on the list Ricardio posted couple days back.

Main 61 cards:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Llanowar Wastes

Sideboard
2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Savannah
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 flex

Couple of thoughts.
3 BIG Eldrazi PLUS Karn and Ugin feels a bit like a LOT. Not sure if i want to stay on the setup. Emrakul is inevitable, while Kozilek or Ulamog are no warranty. I am slightly favored towards Ugin, because he can reset boards a la Deed. Plus his +1 and Ultimate are just straight out ob noxious. As a matter of fact, the entire card is ob noxious. Still Karn is an improved version of Liliana of the Veil.
2 PrimeTime. I still feel that 4 is to much. 1 was to few, but 2 seems fine.
2/2 split on TKS is currently for testing. i feel that i want 3 MD, but space is a bit tight. Also it is a bad topdeck in the lategame. Especially when your opponent is hellbend.
I tried Oracle, but Exploration was hardly relevant and i was missing the lifegain and body from Courser of Kruphix.
Wood Elves gets a dual untapped, which is pretty solid, but i do prefer to have Nissa. When you need her to ramp it ramps, but when you don't you get to draw cards OR dump a 4/4 to the field. IMHO miles better then WE due to its flexibility. I can see WE being more relevant in a deck like Scape where it fetches a Taiga for value with Valakut.
The trade for the 2 PrimeTime is MD Thragtusk and Fierce Empath. Tusks lifegain is often relevant. In my experience that card has saved my ass sooo many times. I just can't leave it at home.
Empath is beginning to grow on me more and more. I like it in this deck because it replaces a PrimeTime, but it can be an alternative route to PrimeTime or the big Eldrazi. I have found myself GSZ into Empath into Eldrazi pretty often during testing.
At first i didn't play Karakas and Eye of Ugin, but soon found that both cards play an important role in the deck. Karakas is not only cute with the big Eldrazi, it also gives them a way of protecting them. And Eye of Ugin is inevitability, I remember reading something about it from Fatal, and it was very true. Getting a Post and Eye with PrimeTime ensures landing a big Eldrazi the turn after.
Still have 3 flex slots. Warping Wail is the main consideration since it can hit Sorcery's like Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor, Natural order or remove Phyrexian Revoker.

[Ricardio]

so im 2-0 in a league right now.

i played a 2man for fun:

http://i.imgur.com/RfCIYry.png

i know not the best opponent but it felt good.

[rubblekill]

im running 2/2 tks right now and its pretty good.

The more I play this deck, the more I find it hilariously entertaining. The fact we run over miracles so damn hard is amazing. drawing 6+ cards with Koz D trigger.
OH baby, a man can only get so erect.

Is it really that strong against miracles? You are tempting me man.

[Bobmans]

Is it really that strong against miracles? You are tempting me man.
Miracles is somewhat soft to our removal. Plus they cannot handle Eye of Ugin + Emrakul.

[Fatal]

Primer decribe quite well how to play vs Miracles, we have all needed tools to win:

Turn 1-2: Therapy / SDT (don't waste Therapy if they can use brainstom in response unless you need Vet trigger). Keep in mind that if they brainstorm in response you can outplay them with Vet just to give them hard choose - shuffle best cards, or get mana boost. Real targets to hit with therapy: Jace, Fow, Counterspell, Snapcaster. If you don't have deed on table, or Abrupt Decay in hand CB also can be named if you have SDT/more therapies in hand.

Turn 3-4: Blow up CB with Decay, and ramp with Value creatures, Wood Elves, Solemn. Try to resolve Deed they will mostly counter it.

Turn 5-6-7: Try to resolve Titan if you success, game is yours. Resolved Deed is a protection vs eot EtA for lethal. Find with Titan Eye + Cloudpost, it's enough mana to find Kozilek, then cast it / if they have ticking Jace with too many loyality just pick NewUlamog . They can't handle that kind of CA. After they handle it, just put lands and cast more Titans / Eldrazi.

We have answer vs their all threads:
Deed, Decays blow up Mentors, EtA and CB
Karn / Ugin / Ulamog answers Jace
Discard answer permission

Don't rush play optimal thinking about CA and CQ. If you have to cast Titan under CB keep in mind they can use Terminus to counter it, better try to resolve Deed or blow it with decay.

They mostly have 7 "dead" cards in his deck - all terminus and STP are useless vs us.

[Ricardio]

Is it really that strong against miracles? You are tempting me man.

Its like we took the best cards from nic fit and post and mashed them together. Resolving a koz cast trigger against miracles is like riding a unicorn across a Rambo into a ball pit filled with boobs or something like that.



Miracles is somewhat soft to our removal. Plus they cannot handle Eye of Ugin + Emrakul.

Yes, they have blood moon but they cant deal with multiple primeval titan backed up by Spaghetti monster and the assblaster crew.

[Fatal]

7 MD answers to Moon which 3 are uncounterable is quite nice :-), connect it with 6 basics and really a lot of ways to find them (Vet, Solemn, Elves, Fetches etc)

[Ricardio]

Ya, but that's the only way they slow us down from eldrazi.

The inevitability feels really good albeit jace can be a serious problem. When they realize you are on post they go for a quick kill as soon as possible.

Have we thought about cursed totem in the sideboard?

[Fatal]

No it's bad here.

Cursed totem is versus Elves and Death & Taxes in both matchups you want Deed clean up, so Totem won't survive (maybe in Elves you can blow for 1 but I mostly also want Visionary out). I would rather use something like Toxic Deluge before totem.

Vs Jace Karn and NewLamog works best.

[Ricardio]

No it's bad here.

Cursed totem is versus Elves and Death & Taxes in both matchups you want Deed clean up, so Totem won't survive (maybe in Elves you can blow for 1 but I mostly also want Visionary out). I would rather use something like Toxic Deluge before totem.

Vs Jace Karn and NewLamog works best.

I agree but casting them isn't the issue. Resolving them has been a problem. SO many forces and blind coutnerbalances, makes me wanna choke out my opponent irl.

[Fatal]

Karn can't be CB'ced only forced or Counterspelled, Newlamog even countered is nice deal 3 for 1.. :-). If you have problems add 2 Cavern of Souls in sb. Uncounterable Titan is a bitch :-)

[Ricardio]

Thinking about cavern because it seems strong. Yes but casting them is where i want to be but i gotta get there.

3-2'd a league. lost to Miracles(IDFK HOW) and Jund (g1 drew lands for 5 turns/g2 he had seize into hymn into lily and waste waste so no fun zone)
I beat grixis delver, eldrazi and i wanna say some combo deck(i dont remember)

http://i.imgur.com/VYmERd7.png

That is the latest list after thinking on losses and what not. I am enjoying the deck thus far. I felt we had too many threats and not enough to get to it.

TKS conitnues to shine and i felt the need for a drs here and there. added the waste to accomodate 3rd mb tks and sb wails. cut cute lands and teeg.

EDIT: I regret cutting teeg immediate. him and the savannah are back.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Kind of interested in playing this deck as a nice in-between 12post and eldrazi stompy. I know that the manabase is already pretty tight and I saw a blue splash proposed at one point. However, has anyone tried a small white splash for just 2-4 eldrazi displacers? Sure, there aren't that many etb triggers in the deck--but that can easily be remedied given the toolbox nature of the deck. Even as it currently is, displacer would have a lot of utility--getting more primetime triggers, unflipping delvers, and laughing at marit lages.

[moseby]

Really like the deck, played it at my LGS this weekend. It is just like my two favorite decks had a baby and this came out.
Can anyone recommend a something that can deal with planeswalker(s) that is GSZable?

Also I am not currently willing to drop $40 on TKS that will drop drastically once temple gets the ban hammer.

Here is what I ran

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
2 bayou
1 underground tomb
5 forest
1 swamp
1 phyrexian tower
1 eye of ugin
1 karakas
4 verdant catacombs
1 bojuka bog

3 sensei's divining top
4 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 pernicious deed
4 Green sun's zenith
2 Toxic deluge
1 ugin dragon spirit
4 veteran explorer
4 primeval titan
1 nissa vastwood seer
3 crop rotation
2 ancient stirings

1 emrakul. The aeons torn
1 Ulamog he ceasless hunger

sideboard
2 krosan Grip
3 extripate
3 wailing warp
2 duress
1 acidic slime
2 obstinate baloth
1 gaddok teeg
1 Glacial chasm


Slime should be something else, for Nissa I just wanted something that would impact the game more than a wood elf late game. Yes I only own two bayou's, I need to rectify that.
Suggestions?

[Ricardio]

Kind of interested in playing this deck as a nice in-between 12post and eldrazi stompy. I know that the manabase is already pretty tight and I saw a blue splash proposed at one point. However, has anyone tried a small white splash for just 2-4 eldrazi displacers? Sure, there aren't that many etb triggers in the deck--but that can easily be remedied given the toolbox nature of the deck. Even as it currently is, displacer would have a lot of utility--getting more primetime triggers, unflipping delvers, and laughing at marit lages.

by putting in eldrazi displacers and then adding your toolbox, you change the infrastructure of the deck. You have to start again from the ground and rebuild the foundation. By all means, I would love to see a list but I wont be trying that at this time. As for displacing a prime time, we are already ahead if we have that kind of mana and a pt out. First trigger catches us up, second wins us the game. I have never lost a game with this deck where I resolved 3 pt triggers. I could see it as a sb option but without a way to search it up or enough way to use it properly, its extraneous. The same thought was put into not playing world breaker or reality smasher: neither are doing what we want to.


Really like the deck, played it at my LGS this weekend. It is just like my two favorite decks had a baby and this came out.

Can anyone recommend a something that can deal with planeswalker(s) that is GSZable?

Also I am not currently willing to drop $40 on TKS that will drop drastically once temple gets the ban hammer.

Deals with pw and is gsz-able? What are you having problems with?
TKS is absurd. I suggest getting the 4 asap bc it is just worth it.

[Arianrhod]

Run a Fierce Empath to grab Ulamog via Zenith. Planeswalkers solved.

[Ricardio]

Run a Fierce Empath to grab Ulamog via Zenith. Planeswalkers solved.

I found ulamog to be the worst of the big three. Same with karn between him and Ugin.

Pulse in the sideboard could do the work you need but other than jtms, pw aint no thang (lotv can be a nightmare)

I guess playing an oldamog/Newlamog? in the sb might be right?

[Emrakul503]

GR post player here. Just played against Ricardo and really liked how the deck played out. Thinking about playing the GB version. Does the deck need Teeg in the side? What is he coming in against? Thought Knot was an absolute house in the MU

[Ricardio]

GR post player here. Just played against Ricardo and really liked how the deck played out. Thinking about playing the GB version. Does the deck need Teeg in the side? What is he coming in against? Thought Knot was an absolute house in the MU

Hey man. Teeg is a huge stall against the combo decks. Gsz makes 5 copies and often times you need him to stall till you can either seize/tks/prime time off. If you aren't in a combo meta, you can play with out him. Often times you keep a 6 that is 3 lands, gsz, therapy, tks. Sometimes it feels bad to wait for gsz into teeg but they have to remove it to win.
I have upped my combo hate a bit. The mu is even more lopsided than rhino fit. I added an urborg to the main as a way to mitigate need of black mana for turns you want to therapy and deed. Reality smasher might be something I try next as a gap closer for combo and miracles (fk that deck)

I suggest trying the deck. It's a ton of fun but it is currently a work in progress.

[Fatal]

Really like the deck, played it at my LGS this weekend. It is just like my two favorite decks had a baby and this came out.
Can anyone recommend a something that can deal with planeswalker(s) that is GSZable?

....

Slime should be something else, for Nissa I just wanted something that would impact the game more than a wood elf late game. Yes I only own two bayou's, I need to rectify that.
Suggestions?

Slime is catch all answer from GSZ can deal with Walker but it's cost is a problem - 6 mana is sometimes an option between hardcasting PrimeTime and getting 2-for-1 from Slime. Most time EV+ would be casting Titan since it gives you win next turn most time. As low cost answer vs Walkers you don't have too many options:

LOW COST answers - all clunky
CMC=3 Green Lightning Ball - http://magiccards.info/pc/en/148.html - I didn't like it since it dies to any removal - CMC GGG - very hard to hardcast in early stage
CMC=4 Timbermare 5/5 decent body which can trample over and tap all blockers as etb - works nice vs walkers, but it's mostly 1-for-1 since it has Echo, which is also an option for 5/5 beater - good cost, problems to paying echo.

Both options are not great since dies to removal Slime doesn't have this issue.
- You can also use Sigarda/Titania, Protector, but it's almost non-hardcastable(Sigarda), where Titania has options to win the game at it's own - (same issue as above threads - removal).

Question is - why you want to deal with walkers, aren't winning before they ultimate is a solution ? I don't like to run clunky cards just to deal some hypothetical situations, where you can just override them and win faster.

nissa vastwood seer vs Wood Elves is much different beasts - Nissa is CA/fixer with option to became a thread, while Elves are a ramp, fixer and chump/food for therapy - it's huge difference.

@about Teeg - yes, it's needed :/ everytime you cut him - you will face some combo which will remind you why it has to be in SB slots.

As for GBCw options I didn't assemble stable mana base yet - not sure is it even possible. For sure some Glimmerposts should be cut to make place for more colored land (or some Tricolor pain lands - Brushland etc)

[Ricardio]

Cast teeg hasn't been a problem for me seeing as I usually gsz for it.
I haven't thought about playing llanor waste but I think the mana is getting to a stable point.
I do not believe cutting any of the 8 locus is correct.

[moseby]

Slime is catch all answer from GSZ can deal with Walker but it's cost is a problem - 6 mana is sometimes an option between hardcasting PrimeTime and getting 2-for-1 from Slime. Most time EV+ would be casting Titan since it gives you win next turn most time. As low cost answer vs Walkers you don't have too many options:

LOW COST answers - all clunky
CMC=3 Green Lightning Ball - http://magiccards.info/pc/en/148.html - I didn't like it since it dies to any removal - CMC GGG - very hard to hardcast in early stage
CMC=4 Timbermare 5/5 decent body which can trample over and tap all blockers as etb - works nice vs walkers, but it's mostly 1-for-1 since it has Echo, which is also an option for 5/5 beater - good cost, problems to paying echo.

Both options are not great since dies to removal Slime doesn't have this issue.
- You can also use Sigarda/Titania, Protector, but it's almost non-hardcastable(Sigarda), where Titania has options to win the game at it's own - (same issue as above threads - removal).

Question is - why you want to deal with walkers, aren't winning before they ultimate is a solution ? I don't like to run clunky cards just to deal some hypothetical situations, where you can just override them and win faster.



The reason I mention this is because I ran in to a fit-walker deck. beside one modest misplay the deck had answers for almost everything I did. IE fow my early top therapy out business and then jace me into the stone age.

[Ricardio]

The reason I mention this is because I ran in to a fit-walker deck. beside one modest misplay the deck had answers for almost everything I did. IE fow my early top therapy out business and then jace me into the stone age.

Well this is a thread for the 8 post version. You might want to head over to the actual nic fit thread for a bug pw fit list.

I have been pretty busy lately and haven't been able to test much, maybe a game here or there on mtgo. I will hopefully get more matches in this weekend with a league, ideally.

[moseby]

Well this is a thread for the 8 post version. You might want to head over to the actual nic fit thread for a bug pw fit list.

I have been pretty busy lately and haven't been able to test much, maybe a game here or there on mtgo. I will hopefully get more matches in this weekend with a league, ideally.

No I ran into the deck, and I was asking for possible options to answers to it that I could GSZ for. I have no interest in playing that deck.

[Havoc]

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Crop Rotation
3 Show and Tell
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Wastes
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

Won with this build yesterday at my local shop. 34 person event so 5 rounds.

R1 Miracles

G1 never met this guy. Admits he just got into legacy. I win the roll and go fetch, bayou, veteran. He goes fetch, island, top.... Ok so miracles. I play trop, cabal therapy t2 name force which hits, I flash back and name brainstorm. He brainstorms in respond but I don't care. This grabs me island and swamp which I use to cast show and tell. He puts a fetch into play while I lay down emrakul. He tops during up upkeep, cracks the fetch, tops again and scoops.

Sideboard: out 3 crop rotations, in 3 Krosan grips. I don't side in much because I feel like all I fear is top, might just be from my days playing elves lol

G2 he goes Karakas into top. I mirror his play though I mule to 6. He tops during upkeep,plays an island and a second top. I play cavern naming Eldrazi and pass. He plays a counter balance turn 3 and passes with Karakas up. I play eye of Ugin, and play an uncounterable TKS thought he did top and try to counter with a jace on top. I just point to my cavern and say I did announce make a green with it. He's cool and revels his hand. I take his swords just to keep him from drawing from TKS and get a clock going. He deploys mentor to make blockers but i start hitting Cloudpost and cast a uncounterable Kozilek which fills my grip. I find deed to clear out all the mentors and beat down with Koz. He tries to swords and terminus but an extra top and Titan ditched to Koz seal his fate.

R2 Temur Devler ( RUG for those like me how have played legacy for a few years)

G1 RUG does what RUG does. I'm never in it as he flips delver and rides it to victory.

Sideboard 3 decay, 1 bog, 1 chasm out 3 TKS, 1 Karakas, 1 Kozilek

G2 I get a explorer turn 1 off bayou again. He lands delver off volcanic. I play misty and cabal therapy. He thinks for a minute then says resolves I name daze after a minute, he sighs and I hit 2( confused why he didn't use them) I flashback naming ponder taking the one he had. I leave him with lands and brainstorm. I pass. He brainstorms EOT. His delver flips off bolt, he lays a fetch, cracks it, and plays a goyf on his turn, swinging with delver. I top deck show and tell, drop a Cloudpost and SnT, he drops a land while I drop ulamog and pass. He draws and plays ponder. He shuffles, draws and plays a newly drawn goyf. Beat in with delver putting me down 12. Now I'm worried I can't attack with ulamog for fear of powering up those goyfs more and dying on the crack back. I worry for nothing as I top deck a top, play another Cloudpost and play top. Top shows me a deed three cards down. I pass hoping he doesn't find another bolt to go over the top on me. He doesn't as he draws and plays a land and beats with just delver. I untap, draw and slam deed. He shrugs and makes me play it out. Pop deed for 2 clearing his board, 2 beats with ulamog and 40 cards gone wins me the game.

G3 this one wasn't close. He counters my explorer with force and therapy with daze after I forget to lay my land first. Doesn't have anything for the SnT on turn 3. Emrakul comes crashing down and he's done.

R3 aggro Eldrazi

G1 this deck is nothing to worry about. he gets a fast start but I rip his hand apart with therapy and wipe the field with deed on turn 4, he doesn't recover as I land Titan x2 and get x 3 cloud post then glimmer on the swing next turn
Sideboard +3 decay, -3 crop rotation. I don't like rotation here because of chalice

G2 turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 2 chalice at 2, turn 3 2 mimics.... Ok turn 3 SnT he sighs and motions to bring it. Down comes ulamog he drops a land, pass. He flips another mimic, plays it and passes. In comes ulamog, he blocks and mills, pass. He draws and plays a TKS and beats me for twelve. He takes a card I don't care about with TKS trigger and passes. Draw and swing again. Library almost non existent now he draws plays a land and passes. I draw and swing one last time and he scoops.

R4 ANT

G1 I get super lucky after a mule to 6 and play t1 therapy name dark rite instead of explorer. His eyes go wide and he shows me a hand of x3 dark rite, tendrils, ad nauseum, and lands. He never recovers as I start landing TKS on turn 3 and 4 and ride them to victory.

Sideboard +3 Flusterstorm, 4 surgical, -1 emrakul, 1 ulamog, 1 ugin, 3 deed, 1 ancient stirrings. This matchup is a nightmare.

G2 my hand was good but not good enough to stop a turn 1 tendrils for lethal. Soooo.........game 3

G3 my deck comes thru with a explorer fueled cabal therapy on T2. I rip brainstorms and his tutor out of his hand which slows him down. I start dropping Cloudpost at this point and crop rotation for a cavern naming Eldrazi. A surgical stops his tutors for good. This allows me to play an uncounterable Kozilek and fill the grip the turn he wants to go off. I just ditch to stuff I don't want to resolve and land Karakas to fill my grip back up every turn. He surrenders the turn I could win. Kozilek shouldn't allow me to counter stuff lol

R5 Miracles
G1 he goes first and gets counterbalance and top going. He counters all my early plays and almost gets me. His mistake was not countering a deed early on. It allowed me enough time to actually hard cast emrakul with Karakas untapped. Trigger and he tries to terminus him away. I bounce him and he scoops in the face of infinite turns.

Sideboard the same as round 1

G2 he gets top but no counterbalance this time. This lets me k-grip the top on turn 3. He has another one next turn but still I got one lol. I get cavern on Eldrazi and he has to start wasting terminus and swords to get rid to ulamog and TKS. I get in on swing with a Titan before he's gone too. He miracles an entreat at EOT for 4. He plays a jace on his turn and bottoms a Titan swinging me to 2. I draw emerakul and take another turn. I swing then play top, look, crack fetch, top again and find Karakas to end him. He's super salty about this and complains that I should just play regular UG 12 post. Lol sorry but I think this is better.

We split top 8 because we always do and I pick up sleeves and perfect fits for the deck. All in all this deck feels amazing. I feel that the trick is always go get bayou and trop first with fetches and get the basics off explorer. I never kept a hand with more than 1 cloud/glimmer post. You need your colors. Always. I'm going to tweak it a little bit more but I feel this list is pretty solid right now

[ESG]

Well this is a thread for the 8 post version. You might want to head over to the actual nic fit thread for a bug pw fit list.


No I ran into the deck, and I was asking for possible options to answers to it that I could GSZ for. I have no interest in playing that deck.

If I remember right from the Sylvan Plug thread, this was one of the things that Giant Solifuge was used for.

[Scott]

This comes from my experience with a different version of Nic Fit, but Strangleroot Geist has been great against planeswalkers and has a lot of synergy with Nic Fit. Good mana cost too.

[Ricardio]

Great tourney report, Havoc. Had me reading the whole thing. An updated list when you can would be very intriguing.

[Fatal]

Very interesting list Havoc !

I have a lot of questions about it.

First how you feel vs tempo - mostly RUG/BUG. This manabase is so greedy ! Please tell me how stable is it.

I found you running blue only for S&T - why you replace Brainstorms with Ancient Stirrings, Brainstorms looks a lot of better here 1 CQ vs 3 CQ.

Second think Cavern of Souls 2 x but no single Phyrexian Tower with 3 x Crop Rotation MD is it intend or you didn't think to use tower here ?

About SB:

I don't like 4-of Surgical Extraction, for sure would replace for 1 Bojuka Bog, specially with 3 MD Rotations - so you could free one SB slot.

Glacial Chasm vs Tempo decks - is not worth. It's used vs Elves, Burn etc but not vs decks with wastelands, stifles etc.. it's just a blank land, much better to find 2 glimmerposts then Chasm which will decrease your mana available.

Interesting that you running 4 Veteran Explores but not single one GSZ, why ?

Congratz for your finish !

[Havoc]

Very interesting list Havoc !

I have a lot of questions about it.

First how you feel vs tempo - mostly RUG/BUG. This manabase is so greedy ! Please tell me how stable is it.

I found you running blue only for S&T - why you replace Brainstorms with Ancient Stirrings, Brainstorms looks a lot of better here 1 CQ vs 3 CQ.

Second think Cavern of Souls 2 x but no single Phyrexian Tower with 3 x Crop Rotation MD is it intend or you didn't think to use tower here ?

About SB:

I don't like 4-of Surgical Extraction, for sure would replace for 1 Bojuka Bog, specially with 3 MD Rotations - so you could free one SB slot.

Glacial Chasm vs Tempo decks - is not worth. It's used vs Elves, Burn etc but not vs decks with wastelands, stifles etc.. it's just a blank land, much better to find 2 glimmerposts then Chasm which will decrease your mana available.

Interesting that you running 4 Veteran Explores but not single one GSZ, why ?

Congratz for your finish !


1. Tempo is .. Well tempo lol. We have to control their hand and field until mid to late game. The mana is greedy but mostly it's controllable by not keeping hands without fetches, basics or duals. In play testing I found that if I kept hands with post in it I lost. 1 was ok but multiples never worked out in my favor. Mostly you need to realize that post is there for the late game. Same with all the other lands from the 12 post list. 12 post players will always go and get Island, forest, trop, then post. If you draw them that's fine but let your Titans and rotations get them. Go for basics and duals in the first 1-4 turns. Right now my meta isn't wasteland heavy so I usually get bayou first followed by trop then basics

2. I played 12 post for about a year now and ancient stirring sees 5 cards while brainstorm sees 3. You also can't brainstorm lock yourself as the cards go to the bottom. Your correct my build only splashes U for a few things so it's easier for me to have G for stirring then U sometimes. Also the flusterstorms in the side were one of my only good answers to storm. I hate storm with a passion.

3. The tower doesn't really do much for my build. I found that on T2 the most I could create was 5 mana. Not enough to cast uncounterable Titan and TKS could be played if I have eye. I felt I could do better. You saw R1 vs miracles where I got the SnT on T2 because of the explorer. Even countered I was far ahead. Also after explorer I don't want to throw anything to tower as my opponents gain something, either I lost a beat stick or they draw cards to TKS. Cavern almost always named Eldrazi or Giant. Those big threats needed counter protection. It's why 12 post has run 2-3 for a while now.

4. Yeah I know. I don't like the 4 surgical in here either. It's just something that carried over from the 12 post build. Those will be cut down to 3 as soon as I find what I want it it's place. I'm probably going to add Platinum Empirion x2 for -1 surgical, - 1 chasm as I can search for it, it's almost impossible for burn and tempo decks to kill so long as you never attack or block with it, and he was a star player when i played 12 post. So many decks never saw him coming. I've got the bog already

5. The zenith for me was good but when your topping and digging 5 cards down a lot I never had a reason to search. If I didn't see him ok but I've got top or stirrings which will find me lands I need. If the explorer plan wasn't in the opening or my mule to 6 the deck allowed me to switch to a post deck really easily.

I think the reason why my list worked is because I'm coming from the 12 post shell instead of from the nic fit side. Coming from that perspective is how I built the list. I tried to start with the list posted here but everything felt all over the place. I used the bant 12post list as my base then removed white in place black cutting things for the control aspect of nic fit but keeping 12 post overwhelming creature quality. The sideboard for 12 post played more into my favor then nic fits did and I didn't have time to really work on it before I played. I may also drop ugin in favor of a nissa, don't know which one or at all at the moment. I'll be taking this build to a GPT for Columbus this weekend with a few tweaks in the sideboard.

Sideboard possibly
2 Platinum Empirion
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog

[JohnBell]

@Havoc
1- Krosan Grip is really necessary?

2- Vs Grave-Based.deck/ANT/TarmoLethal.deck isn't good choice Leyline of the Void?

[Havoc]

@Havoc
1- Krosan Grip is really necessary?

2- Vs Grave-Based.deck/ANT/TarmoLethal.deck isn't good choice Leyline of the Void?

1. Krosan grip has always been an auto inclusion for me when I play green. With so many 1 drops Trinisphere and chalice can really slow you down if not cost you games. Since it's almost completely unstoppable I like it more than any other artifact or enchantment removal. It may be better to run 4 decay freeing up 2 spots for something else but I like the 3 to 3 split. Decay is usually used to blow up delver and gofy.

2. Leyline for me isn't an option. It is a good card if it's in your opening hand but I've always had a more hated relationship with it. All to often you have to run 4 in sideboard in the hopes of having it turn zero. After that It takes at least 3 turns to play if you draw it on your opening turn. If your worried about graveyard based strategies id run grafdiggers cage. Yeah it doesn't stop goyf strategies but it's backbreaking to reanimator, dredge, tin fins, and storm ( if they have to use past in flames)

If I was running sideboard with noted changes
2 Platinum Empirion
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Flusterstorm
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Bojuka Bog

Leaves one spot open for fun.

[jbone2016]

Whelp, this deck is awesome. I beat miracles on a mull to 4.

[Fatal]

Congrats, anyway we already know that Miracles are very easy with this deck :-). Awaiting for more tournament reports.

[Arianrhod]

I'll be working on this again soon, just waiting to be on the other side of April 4th so I actually know the card pool for the next couple months. Don't want to start testing with / against anything that might change. I don't think anything needs changed, but there's apparently a rumor going around that WotC is going to be making major changes in all formats, so, we'll see.

[Ricardio]

I'll be working on this again soon, just waiting to be on the other side of April 4th so I actually know the card pool for the next couple months. Don't want to start testing with / against anything that might change. I don't think anything needs changed, but there's apparently a rumor going around that WotC is going to be making major changes in all formats, so, we'll see.

don't you dare get my hopes up. I would continue to test in the meantime. I assume nothing changes for legacy bc wotc doesn't give a shit. cards like top and brainstorm would have been banned long ago. they wont do anything monumental with EMA on the horizon. Ideally, a huge shake up in modern is in order but it will likely hit eye and maybe goryos but not much else. it would be odd for them to do something because they are so often lazy with b/r list updates. Konami level work ethic. You could do other things for a week and see what happens but I doubt anything will, sadly. all this stale, lackluster magic is bringing me down. I don't even know if im gonna make an effort to go to gp Columbus.

[Bobmans]

Time for a buy-in to the missing pieces to actually complete this in cardboard :-)

So finally it is time for the Big Furry Monsters!

[Ricardio]

Time for a buy-in to the missing pieces to actually complete this in cardboard :-)

So finally it is time for the Big Furry Monsters!

one of us....one of us...

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Wood Elves
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Ancient Stirrings

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes

//sb
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Toxic Deluge

Testing this at the local tonight. I'm going to be specifically evaluating the Ancient Stirrings package (which includes the Ugin).

If they're not good enough, I'll probably go -3 Stirrings -1 Ugin +1 Top +1 Sylvan Library +2 Toxic Deluge, which opens up two sideboard slots as well, not to mention any other over/under performers.

[Ricardio]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Wood Elves
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Ancient Stirrings

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes

//sb
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Toxic Deluge

Testing this at the local tonight. I'm going to be specifically evaluating the Ancient Stirrings package (which includes the Ugin).

If they're not good enough, I'll probably go -3 Stirrings -1 Ugin +1 Top +1 Sylvan Library +2 Toxic Deluge, which opens up two sideboard slots as well, not to mention any other over/under performers.

GL M8! Prove my theory about stirrings wrong!

[Arianrhod]

3-0 at a small one in the wake of prerelease weekend. Had a bye round one, sucked. Beat Oops All Spells in 3 r2, then Twin in r3.

G1 Oops mulled to 4 and then I fucked his hand even harder with Therapy (which hit blind, on the play...got a Manamorphose) into Thought-Knot + Primeval Titan with Deed for 3 open...obviously a couple turns in there various places.
G2 he belches me on turn 1. K.
G3 I play a turn 1 Needle on Belcher, which stops him from killing me on his turn, and then grind him out from there.

Vs Twin Thought-Knots were again amazing both games, g2 I won on the back of an uncounterable Kozilek, which then countered his combo the following turn by discarding TKS.

Not the best test data, sadly. Sideboard was fine, although I did miss the Deluge slots a bit. Ugin never came up, as per matches, but Stirrings were great, and on a couple of occasions they got me into the right/amount of mana needed to cast TKS ahead of curve, which was critical in my wins -- ie t1 discard, t2 cloudpost + stirrings for glimmer, t3 glimmer + TKS.

Oracle was questionable in play, but it only came out vs Twin, where it only played me like two extra lands over multiple turns, with Top, and couldn't swing into Pestermite (he had a redundant Exarch).

I'll try to get in more testing as able, but for now I need to go die. I came down with something about halfway through the event and have a pretty nasty fever, sore throat, and headache/sore neck now. At least I have that sweet sweet mullah in my store credit account :3

[Ricardio]

Nice results, bud. Feel better. I haven't had much desire to play lately due to standard being boring and eldrazi in modern, I am hoping Friday changes that.
I am also 0-2 in the league with it, losing to insane led dredge draws and then miracles with everything.

[Mr. Headshot]

Is it possible to include the dark-depths combo? I think it can be very strong to go Primeval Titan -> dark depths + stage. Also if you have dark depths or stage in the battlefield, Crop rotation and expedition map become must-counters. If they keep their wasteland in order to respond to the combo, means that they wound use it on your other lands...

Anybody still working on a list?

[Ricardio]

Is it possible to include the dark-depths combo? I think it can be very strong to go Primeval Titan -> dark depths + stage. Also if you have dark depths or stage in the battlefield, Crop rotation and expedition map become must-counters. If they keep their wasteland in order to respond to the combo, means that they wound use it on your other lands...

Anybody still working on a list?

I am working on non-CR list, just waiting for league to resume after Wednesday to get back to testing.

I believe that list is where you want stirrings. Hood was looking into that mostly. He is around.

[Arianrhod]

I am working on non-CR list, just waiting for league to resume after Wednesday to get back to testing.

I believe that list is where you want stirrings. Hood was looking into that mostly. He is around.

Yeah, I've been knocked flat on my ass by this flu for the last week. Now I'm getting over the flu, but found out from the urgent care this morning that not only do I have pink eye to deal with now, but also I started developing a bacterial sinus infection secondary to the flu. Still feeling a lot better than I had been, but I'm probably going to be largely out of commission for a couple days yet.

I do have a tournament upcoming this weekend, pending health, and I'm planning on running a similar list to my last posted and hopefully get some more realistic testing. As nice as it was to beat Oops and Twin, I'd kind of like more matches vs tier 1-tier 2 decks, lol.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I've been knocked flat on my ass by this flu for the last week. Now I'm getting over the flu, but found out from the urgent care this morning that not only do I have pink eye to deal with now, but also I started developing a bacterial sinus infection secondary to the flu. Still feeling a lot better than I had been, but I'm probably going to be largely out of commission for a couple days yet.

I do have a tournament upcoming this weekend, pending health, and I'm planning on running a similar list to my last posted and hopefully get some more realistic testing. As nice as it was to beat Oops and Twin, I'd kind of like more matches vs tier 1-tier 2 decks, lol.

Get better soon, man. Fluids and sleep. Dibbs on your stuff if you die. /jk

[cherson]

I come from 12 post as well and missed the presence to the board why I was looking for an alternative. GB are perfect to combine with posts but I somehow have mana issues. Pretty often I get posts but I need G. I run a similar list to one of ricardios

Lands.
3x bayou
4x glimmerpost
4x cloudpost
4x forest
4x fetch
1x swamp
1x cavern
1x eye of ugin
1x waste (or a 2nd swamp)

Creatures
4x titan
4x veteran explorer
3x thought knot
2x deathrite
1x wood elves
1x spaghetti
1x ulamog
1x kruphix or oracle

Spells
4x gsz
4x Cabal t
3x abrupt decay
3x pernicious deed
2x top
1x maelstrom pulse
1x explore
1x Sylvan library

1x ugin

[Ricardio]

I come from 12 post as well and missed the presence to the board why I was looking for an alternative. GB are perfect to combine with posts but I somehow have mana issues. Pretty often I get posts but I need G. I run a similar list to one of ricardios

Lands.
3x bayou
4x glimmerpost
4x cloudpost
4x forest
4x fetch
1x swamp
1x cavern
1x eye of ugin
1x waste (or a 2nd swamp)

Creatures
4x titan
4x veteran explorer
3x thought knot
2x deathrite
1x wood elves
1x spaghetti
1x ulamog
1x kruphix or oracle

Spells
4x gsz
4x Cabal t
3x abrupt decay
3x pernicious deed
2x top
1x maelstrom pulse
1x explore
1x Sylvan library

1x ugin

I am at 4 fetches and 4 bayous: I feel they significantly help the initial mana count. You could add a swamp but since I play 4 tks, I have to run the 1 waste to reliably cast it. I dabbled with a urborg for a bit, might be somewhere you'd like to explore. Explore is kind of a throw in, drawing a card and playing 2 post in a turn seems optimal.

Some number of drs mb might be necessary. The deck is still a work in progress but has been doing well and most notably, is a helluva a ride. It doesn't go as big as fast as dedicated 12 post but its early game resilience and the ability to go long makes up for it. PT is also a 6/6 trample, not just a 6 cmc get 2 non basics.

[cherson]

It is not exactly your list but it inspired me. In my opinion deathrite main is great, it can provide the last missing mana in any color to cast what ever is needed and MD gravehate is necessary in many mu's..

I played explore in my 12 post deck as well and liked it a lot especially because all one drops (crop) get countered by chalice or cb.

It is not as fast as 12 post indeed but this one has the opportunity to react on the board. I hated the 12 post games hiding behind chasim etc before I cld do something. I was on mono g btw.

[Ricardio]

It is not exactly your list but it inspired me. In my opinion deathrite main is great, it can provide the last missing mana in any color to cast what ever is needed and MD gravehate is necessary in many mu's..

I played explore in my 12 post deck as well and liked it a lot especially because all one drops (crop) get countered by chalice or cb.

It is not as fast as 12 post indeed but this one has the opportunity to react on the board. I hated the 12 post games hiding behind chasim etc before I cld do something. I was on mono g btw.

that's interesting. Well, glad to have you aboard!

[cherson]

I think I will test the deck on a small clash next week.
Meta is mixed.
What do u think about our mu's in general?
Eldrazi
Elves
D&t
Mud
Burn
Lands and or turbo depths
Reanimator
Aggro loam
Merfolk
Omnishow
Deathblade
Rug
Grixis
Infect
Storm

And of course lovely Miracles, easy as far as I understood from the thread ☺

Pleases to hear.
BTW, I changed explore against Sylvan scrying because I need to find lands if I need them. I also try to add bojuka and karakas but I don't have space for them

[Fatal]

I think I will test the deck on a small clash next week.
Meta is mixed.
What do u think about our mu's in general?
Eldrazi
Elves
D&t
Mud
Burn
Lands and or turbo depths
Reanimator
Aggro loam
Merfolk
Omnishow
Deathblade
Rug
Grixis
Infect
Storm

And of course lovely Miracles, easy as far as I understood from the thread ☺

Pleases to hear.
BTW, I changed explore against Sylvan scrying because I need to find lands if I need them. I also try to add bojuka and karakas but I don't have space for them

Meta is mixed.
What do u think about our mu's in general?
Eldrazi - easy if they don't have porn hand (turn 1 chalice on play, turn 2 TKS, turn 3 Smasher, Turn 4 Smasher) - nor deck can't survive it)
Elves - Glacial Chasm under crop rotation is needed to survive Hoofing turn 3-4 or well timed therapy/discard to slow them down. If you survive to deed you mostly wil win it
D&t - Vet triggers will give you a win - keep in mind to decay mom/phyrexian revoker which will name Deed if he knows vs what he is playing, resolved Titan is a win same is true for activated Deed
Mud - Decay Metalworker, you have better mana base and they can't answer too good vs chumping Veteran
Burn - Chasm vs Price of Progress is needed play basics from fetchlands, sculpt their hand looking for price of progress, resolve Titan - gg they can't race it.
Lands and or turbo depths - not easy MU - own Thespian Stage will be very handy in sb with crop rotations, make your own Marit Liege, Karns shine in this matchups
Reanimator - It's not easy to win G1, unless they don't run Tyrant, after SB it's depends how many cards you have MD KArakas can give you free win G1.
Aggro loam - Play basics, look out for DD/TS , use Deed to clean up all threads + moxes - quite easy
Merfolk - easy, discard hard countermagic, play deed, win..
Omnishow - this matchup require SB, discard isn't enough mostly specially G2 if they land leyline I used Memoricide vs Omni which was enough.
Deathblade - easy
Rug - tide
Grixis - tide
Infect - Chasm again will be your best weapon vs them, also resolved Deed will be enough to fog their threads.
Storm - g1 mostly unwinable if opponent is good, discard isnt enough, g2 g3 Gaddock with discard gy hate etc is mostly enough, adding Memoricide or Sadistic Sacrament is just a win. Don't side out all Deeds keep 1-2 vs Empty the Warrens.

[Ricardio]

lol porn hand. nice. I agree with what he said.

[cherson]

Tbh I have very few experience against eldrazi and didn't hear good things.
May I know your sideboard ? Do u play crop chasim main because it seems it is your answer to a lot of mu's. What Abt Warping Wail against all the sorcery combos? S&t, Elves, storm etc? I played it main in 12 post and it was great but I can't find space here..

[Fatal]

It looks like Chasm is solution for a lot of things but mostly it's just G, sac land - Fog for 2-3 turns which you need vs faster decks which can't deal with lands. But it's needed only in some matchups (it's useless on others) that's why it's not main deck. I'm not a big fan of playing Crop Rotation MD due to card disadvantage when countered.

For Example:
Elves,
Burn,
Infect.

All those 3 decks can kill you faster then you can't resolve Titan or clean table with Deed, so you need answer vs their card disadvantage final strike - like Natural Order -> Hoof or Invigorate, Bersker or Fireblast + Price of Progress. All those cards are huge disadvantage so sacrificing a land isn't so scary looking that those glacial canons can't shot one more time in decent time until you get advantage and win.

My actually SB is mostly focused around crop rotations:

SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine

Lastly I didnt met a lot of Combo like S&T, but facing a lot of Shardless Bug (probably due to good matchups against Eldrazi), so I adopt and add 2 Wurmcoil Engines which are really a lot of trouble for Shardless (probably only decent answer is Jace). From my experience with playing against BUG:
1) Keep hand with SDT
2) They cant deal with Veteran except 2-for-1 FoW
3) Keep cabal therapy if you can;t use it rightaway, Shamans can exile them
4) Keep Abrupt Decay for Liliana
5) Look out when playing Deed to not get Abrupt Decayed.
6) Resolved Titan is a win

[Hmmm_Really?]

@Fatal and @Havoc, what's your experience versus anyDelver.dec? My local field is heavy with UR, RUG, BUG and Grixis variants and my Junk Rhino-fit deck is sometimes too slow. Is this 8post version any quicker than Junk?

[Fatal]

Junk versions have problems since it require a lot of colors, here you only need two, cloudposts/glimerposts give you edge over reach (bolts), also removal package is very important here I'm using 7 MD removal - 3 Abrupt Decay's and 4 Pernicious Deed which works very well vs for example Young Pyromancer.

I think RUG and Grixs has additional way to fight us with stifles (it's important to trigger veteran) compared to BUG tempo (Team America). On the other side BUG has Hymns and sometimes Lilianas which gives them additional edge. Anyway nor of those decks running swords to plowshares so you can easy seal the ground with Veteran Explorer. Decay is mostly used vs turn 1 delver which is their main scenerio vs us - play Delver, flip and counter removal.

Overlay I have positive record vs all Delver.dec. You can also increase your chances if your meta full of them with additional removal like Innocent Blood which also works nice with veteran.

Probably the most important things is playing good with your mana base - so look out for stifles, fetch basics and resolve veteran. If they don't kill your fast - you will win, so hands with removal have additional points :-)

[Arianrhod]

Played 4 rounds today. Went to 3 games each round. Mulled 11 out of 12 games. Ended 1-3 -- beat Burn, lost to Shardless, ANT, and Grixis Delver. Didn't have any trouble with what they were doing, really -- all of those are matchups I've easily won in the past. I just mulled way, way, way too much. Amusingly, the game I beat ANT was g1. Stirrings is still great, and in fact was why I beat ANT (grabbed a TKS after Therapy stuff happened).

Nothing else really to say. Bad variance is bad. My life.

[cherson]

Played 4 rounds today. Went to 3 games each round. Mulled 11 out of 12 games. Ended 1-3 -- beat Burn, lost to Shardless, ANT, and Grixis Delver. Didn't have any trouble with what they were doing, really -- all of those are matchups I've easily won in the past. I just mulled way, way, way too much. Amusingly, the game I beat ANT was g1. Stirrings is still great, and in fact was why I beat ANT (grabbed a TKS after Therapy stuff happened).

Nothing else really to say. Bad variance is bad. My life.

Why did u mull so often? Was it due to a vague mana Base?
I face the problem quite often like I mentioned in my previous post,but maybe it is because of the missing fourth bayou. I don't know yet

[Arianrhod]

Why did u mull so often? Was it due to a vague mana Base?
I face the problem quite often like I mentioned in my previous post,but maybe it is because of the missing fourth bayou. I don't know yet

Reasons ran the gamut. Sometimes I didn't have colored mana. Sometimes I didn't have any mana at all. Sometimes I had 6 mana and a Kozilek. Sometimes I had 3 lands and 4 things >4 cmc. Sometimes I had to mull to find disruption so I didn't get stormed off. You name it, it happened. I basically got to spend half of my tournament shuffling -- quality experience :(

[cherson]

That is exactly the problem I see at the moment. The deck looks so fantastic but the mana base is so damn vague.

[Ricardio]

Junk versions have problems since it require a lot of colors, here you only need two, cloudposts/glimerposts give you edge over reach (bolts), also removal package is very important here I'm using 7 MD removal - 3 Abrupt Decay's and 4 Pernicious Deed which works very well vs for example Young Pyromancer.

I think RUG and Grixs has additional way to fight us with stifles (it's important to trigger veteran) compared to BUG tempo (Team America). On the other side BUG has Hymns and sometimes Lilianas which gives them additional edge. Anyway nor of those decks running swords to plowshares so you can easy seal the ground with Veteran Explorer. Decay is mostly used vs turn 1 delver which is their main scenerio vs us - play Delver, flip and counter removal.

Overlay I have positive record vs all Delver.dec. You can also increase your chances if your meta full of them with additional removal like Innocent Blood which also works nice with veteran.

Probably the most important things is playing good with your mana base - so look out for stifles, fetch basics and resolve veteran. If they don't kill your fast - you will win, so hands with removal have additional points :-)

Junk fit has an exceptionally better mu against delver than GB 8 post. More colors does not translate into a worse matchup. Cloudposts coming in tapped and getting wasted can slow us down to a crawl and then we lose to a quick delver. Our delver mu is not awful but as with a lot of mus, we can just lose to ourselves. The game plan in any nic fit deck against delver is resolve as many vet triggers as possible. 2 is actually game over against rug. Bug is quite a bit grindier.


Played 4 rounds today. Went to 3 games each round. Mulled 11 out of 12 games. Ended 1-3 -- beat Burn, lost to Shardless, ANT, and Grixis Delver. Didn't have any trouble with what they were doing, really -- all of those are matchups I've easily won in the past. I just mulled way, way, way too much. Amusingly, the game I beat ANT was g1. Stirrings is still great, and in fact was why I beat ANT (grabbed a TKS after Therapy stuff happened).

Nothing else really to say. Bad variance is bad. My life.

I know that feel. I played BUG control and lost to flooding against delver and nut draws into mirran crusader from DNT. I am still very happy with my build. just want the mana to smooth out.


That is exactly the problem I see at the moment. The deck looks so fantastic but the mana base is so damn vague.

Yes, sadly, post mana is a minigame in itself. sometimes you have to mulligan to play things and other times your hand seems too slow.


What do you guys think about the new Hydra? its like a half baked, strudel sized prime time.

[moseby]

OK here is what I am thinking about running this weekend at the LGS:
3 pernicious deed
1 Ugin the spirit dragon
1 toxic deluge
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 ulamog the ceaseless hunger
4 green sun's zenith
3 abrupt decay
4 veteran explorer
1 nissa vastwood seer
4 primeval titan
3 sensei's divining top
4 cabal therapy
2 thought-knot seer
3 crop rotation

1 swamp
3 bayou
5 forest
4 glimmerpost
4 cloudpost
4 verdant catacombs
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
1 bojuka bog
1 eye of ugin

I would like to be able to squeeze in some Ancient Stirings but cannot figure out where.
As for the sideboard I expect burn, U/R delver, and at least a couple of graveyard shenanigans decks, and elves I have always had a hell of a time with them.

1 Toxic deluge
1 Nihil spellbomb
3 warping wail
1 tabernacle of pendrel vale
1 gaddock teeg
1 savanah
2 duress
2 krosan grip
1 glacial chasm
2 obstinate baloth

I think this is a train wreck it needs more GY hate and another Kgrip but that is what is currently in the deckbox.

[Ricardio]

I would find room in your 75 for a koz, big D. hes absolutely absurd.

Warping wail has been super weak in my testing and having the extra deluge in the sideboard seems superfluous.

3 thoughtseize seems like the right amount in the sb. Some number of surgical is mandatory.

[moseby]

I would find room in your 75 for a koz, big D. hes absolutely absurd.

Warping wail has been super weak in my testing and having the extra deluge in the sideboard seems superfluous.

3 thoughtseize seems like the right amount in the sb. Some number of surgical is mandatory.


I took part of your advise, I packed Koz. The one time I saw him it was nice. I thought he would be good against Bug/Grixis decks.

Anyway at the LGS mothers day we had a pittance show up but it still fired so I cannot complain. 8 people 3 rounds split to top 2

R1 Burn 2-0
I see a cabal therapy turn 3 he responds by vomiting his entire hand at my dome to get me to 3. He draws lands and a prime time gets me there.
G2: I therapy POP and extripate it, thank god because he had 4 postboard.

R2 Lamstill
Never felt even close to being in either game. He is such a tight player, and it just feels like a up hill battle.

R3 Grixis delver
I am sketch on details but G1: was close but I managed to resolve a primetime, with daze mana up, and that puts it away.
G2: I keep a softy 3 lander with bayou cloudpost, and karakas, with a GSZ. He proceeds to probe into therapy my GSZ, then runner runner waste, was not pretty.
G3: goes into top deck mode where I eventually Koz the D. He scoops to him. At this point I am not sure if Ulamog makes would have made any difference at this juncture.

Breakers get me into top 2
Lam again I offer him the buyes, and we prize split. So did not want that MU again.

One note nissa vastwood seer was a house. each and every time I saw her. Yes she is not as good early game to the alternatives but mid, or late what a difference she makes

[Fatal]

Congrats on your finish, Lamstill ? What kind of deck it is ? Something like BUGStill ?

[moseby]

Congrats on your finish, Lamstill ? What kind of deck it is ? Something like BUGStill ?

No lamstill was created by a dude named Lam Phan, he is a pretty well known player in my neck of the woods, he plays the same dam deck all the time. Super grindy control deck with standstill, wastes, and the like. He has been on camera at a GP? Here we go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P99uxLYXkQ .

[Fatal]

Ok it is U/R control deck based on standstill, factories,fearie conclave, stfiles, bolts sudden shock and a lot of permission. It basically can't win vs Caverns, I don't know how you have hard time vs.

[Ricardio]

Ok it is U/R control deck based on standstill, factories,fearie conclave, stfiles, bolts sudden shock and a lot of permission. It basically can't win vs Caverns, I don't know how you have hard time vs.

Things can go wrong fast. a 23 land deck can whiff for 7 turns on its 3rd land to die to a 2/2. variance is magic's foundation. I don't fault him for losing to what you assume is a good matchup but I hope he can learn from it. Did you have any take aways from the matchup?

[moseby]

Things can go wrong fast. a 23 land deck can whiff for 7 turns on its 3rd land to die to a 2/2. variance is magic's foundation. I don't fault him for losing to what you assume is a good matchup but I hope he can learn from it. Did you have any take aways from the matchup?

Stifle is an absolute beating, and he theoretically has 8 copies with snappy, 7-8 hard counters, wasteland + dustbowl. As my list ran no copies of cavern, the only way I would be able to tutor for it is with 3 copies crop rotation. Take-aways are extirpate stifle, and waste as soon as you can, as he is running more basics then you I boarded out 3 of 4 veteran explorers. It is a thoroughly disheartening matchup.

Also there should be 25 lands in my list unless I missed something

[Ricardio]

Has any work been done on this lately?

[cherson]

Unfortunately not. Time is rare and I still don't know how to fix the mana problem.

[cherson]

I can't stop thinking. I am somehow confident that this deck has the right potential but I miss something and I don't know what exactly it is.
I tried to consider the nic fit discussion abt removal/interaction, library manipulation/ca, finisher and ramp to find the missing key but result remains the same :rolleyes:

for the time being I am playing the flwing:

lands:
8 post
6 fetch
3 bayou
3 forest
2 swamp
1 cavern
1 eye
1 wastes
--
25

creatures:
3 titan (1 ramp + 1 finisher)
3 tks (0,5 interaction + 1 finisher)
4 vex (1 ramp)
1 oracle (1 CA + 1 ramp + 0,5 finisher)
1 ewitness (1 ca + 0,5 finisher)
1 scooze (1 finisher)
1 drs (1 ramp + 0,5 finisher)
1 ulamog (1 removal + 1 finisher)
(1 kozilek) (1 CA + 1 finisher)
1 emrakul (0,5 removal + 1 finisher)
--
17 (16)

spells/others:
4 cabal t (1 interaction)
4 gsz (1 library manipulation + 0,5 finisher + 1 ramp)
3 deed (1 removal + 1 CA)
3 top (1 library manipulation/CA)
3 decay (1 removal)
1 m pulse (1 removal)
1 ugin (1 removal + 1 finisher)
--
19

removal/interaction: 15
library manipulation/ca: 15
finishers: 14,5
ramp: 15

CMC (exl gsz):
1: 12
2: 4
3: 5
4: 4
>6: 7

if you compare these stats with nic fit (my current deck: 16,5/15,5/12,5/11,5) they are quite close and look balanced.
the additional ramp is obvious because the general cmc is higher hence we need more ramp.

problem 1, too slow especially the finishers like titan and eldrazis. not sure if tks solves the problem??
problem 2, mana base is too vague. sometimes no colorless, sometimes no G or B whatever. more fetchies??
problem 3, lack of early removal like stp/pte. maybe warping wail and/or innocent blood (which goes well with vex as well) can help??
problem 4, wasteland (maybe bloodmoon). bloodmoon is a minor problem due to decay, pulse and deed. but wasteland is an issue and compared with 12post we don't play needle MD to solve the problem.

I have to admit that my testing is limited because I simply have no time therefore all the above mentioned is more or less theory.

hope we can discuss the deck a bit more and find a way to beat the s*** out of others.

[Ricardio]

I can't stop thinking. I am somehow confident that this deck has the right potential but I miss something and I don't know what exactly it is.
I tried to consider the nic fit discussion abt removal/interaction, library manipulation/ca, finisher and ramp to find the missing key but result remains the same :rolleyes:

for the time being I am playing the flwing:

lands:
8 post
6 fetch
3 bayou
3 forest
2 swamp
1 cavern
1 eye
1 wastes
--
25

creatures:
3 titan (1 ramp + 1 finisher)
3 tks (0,5 interaction + 1 finisher)
4 vex (1 ramp)
1 oracle (1 CA + 1 ramp + 0,5 finisher)
1 ewitness (1 ca + 0,5 finisher)
1 scooze (1 finisher)
1 drs (1 ramp + 0,5 finisher)
1 ulamog (1 removal + 1 finisher)
(1 kozilek) (1 CA + 1 finisher)
1 emrakul (0,5 removal + 1 finisher)
--
17 (16)

spells/others:
4 cabal t (1 interaction)
4 gsz (1 library manipulation + 0,5 finisher + 1 ramp)
3 deed (1 removal + 1 CA)
3 top (1 library manipulation/CA)
3 decay (1 removal)
1 m pulse (1 removal)
1 ugin (1 removal + 1 finisher)
--
19

removal/interaction: 15
library manipulation/ca: 15
finishers: 14,5
ramp: 15

CMC (exl gsz):
1: 12
2: 4
3: 5
4: 4
>6: 7

if you compare these stats with nic fit (my current deck: 16,5/15,5/12,5/11,5) they are quite close and look balanced.
the additional ramp is obvious because the general cmc is higher hence we need more ramp.

problem 1, too slow especially the finishers like titan and eldrazis. not sure if tks solves the problem??
problem 2, mana base is too vague. sometimes no colorless, sometimes no G or B whatever. more fetchies??
problem 3, lack of early removal like stp/pte. maybe warping wail and/or innocent blood (which goes well with vex as well) can help??
problem 4, wasteland (maybe bloodmoon). bloodmoon is a minor problem due to decay, pulse and deed. but wasteland is an issue and compared with 12post we don't play needle MD to solve the problem.

I have to admit that my testing is limited because I simply have no time therefore all the above mentioned is more or less theory.

hope we can discuss the deck a bit more and find a way to beat the s*** out of others.

1) You need to ramp into them while controlling the board albeit easier said than done.
2) Yes, the manabase could use some work I agree but such is the case of a strange 3 color deck
3) between my decays and deed, plus early ramp I feel fine.
4) Wasteland is a problem as well as blood moon but with deed its a nonbo. Maybe a loam in the side is where we want to be.

I am at:

3 SDT
4 vet
4 therapy
3 decay
4 deed
4 tks
1 wood elves
1 STE
4 prime time
4 gsz
1 newlamog
1 koz big D
1 Mom's Spaghetti (36)

1 eye
4 bayou
4 forest
1 swamp
1 waste
6 fetches
8 post (24 + eye)

[Arianrhod]

Has any work been done on this lately?

I've been focusing elsewhere atm, because I think more work needs to be done on this before it could be considered ready for play at a Grand Prix. I'll be working on this more after CBus is over.

I will say, though, that I'm pretty sure that the correct approach is to be a bit smaller -- Kozilek and Ulamog are fine, but I think trying to go all the way up to Emrakul is too far. The deck probably wants around 6 posts, 2 Cloud 4 Glimmer, probably 2 Primevals, more midrange elements. It's still going to be bigger enough than the average deck to punch through, but I think that trying to go nuclear like 12post does is destined to fail to the deck's own internal inconsistencies. If we try nuclear mana, we're essentially taking 12post, giving it more color restrictions, taking away Brainstorm and Expedition Map and show and Tell, and adding removal. While ramping through inaction (lots of removal while making land drops) is /a/ plan, I don't think that it's really what we want to be doing at all. That plan simply doesn't work against entire swaths of the legacy metagame.

[Ricardio]

I've been focusing elsewhere atm, because I think more work needs to be done on this before it could be considered ready for play at a Grand Prix. I'll be working on this more after CBus is over.

I will say, though, that I'm pretty sure that the correct approach is to be a bit smaller -- Kozilek and Ulamog are fine, but I think trying to go all the way up to Emrakul is too far. The deck probably wants around 6 posts, 2 Cloud 4 Glimmer, probably 2 Primevals, more midrange elements. It's still going to be bigger enough than the average deck to punch through, but I think that trying to go nuclear like 12post does is destined to fail to the deck's own internal inconsistencies. If we try nuclear mana, we're essentially taking 12post, giving it more color restrictions, taking away Brainstorm and Expedition Map and show and Tell, and adding removal. While ramping through inaction (lots of removal while making land drops) is /a/ plan, I don't think that it's really what we want to be doing at all. That plan simply doesn't work against entire swaths of the legacy metagame.

I agree to a degree. this is a pet deck for me atm so there are some facits I am unwilling to budget on but I will re-evaluate using your opinion to approach it from another angle.

Will you be at gp charlotte?

[Arianrhod]

I agree to a degree. this is a pet deck for me atm so there are some facits I am unwilling to budget on but I will re-evaluate using your opinion to approach it from another angle.

Will you be at gp charlotte?

Sure will. UB Faeries in the main, figuring out which Nic Fit I want to bring for legacy sides now.

[cherson]

Good luck guys..

[Ricardio]

Sure will. UB Faeries in the main, figuring out which Nic Fit I want to bring for legacy sides now.

Awesome. I'm en route now. Gotta check out Friday sides. Hopefully meet the legend in person.


Good luck guys..

Thanks bud.

[benoasan]

Hi guys. I am new on The source and it's my first post. In addition I am not English so please forgive all my spelling errors…
I am quite a new player (I play competitive legacy only since a year). I tested several decks before (goblin stompy, merfolk and food chain) and start to play veteran 8 posts (and only this deck) since January. I perform one tournament each month (and only one!). I have performed only small tournaments (10 to 40 players) but each time I succeded top4 so I truly believe that this deck has a lot of potential.
I start to played the deck when I saw the list of Aminor on a french web site (Magic-ville). And here was my first list:
1 [] Bojuka Bog
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [R] Bayou
3 [TO] Cabal Coffers
4 [] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
5 [UNH] Forest
1 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [M13] Thragtusk
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ISD] Witchbane Orb
SB: 1 [LG] Nether Void
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 [] Golgari Charm
SB: 1 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle


The first deck had the package cabal coffers/uborg to generate a big amount of mana with primeval titan and finish the game with Emrakul/Ulamog. This deck also had the powerful crop rotation/(maze of ith ; bojuka bog ; karakas) package made dredge and reanimator easy matchup. With this list, I performed three tournaments and each time made a top4. Unfortunately, I had a lot of time the impression that between my first veteran explorer and the titan I did nothing. Just cast some decay and pernicious and wait. I assume that this deck is a big control deck but it’s really lack pressure and a lot of time we need it. In addition, matchup versus storm (high tide, belcher and others) and burn were just horrible.

In order to have a more midrange list, I built with a friend and with the “BIG” help of this forum, this second list:
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [] Wastes
3 [R] Bayou
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [] Endbringer
1 [] Reality Smasher
1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 [] Wood Elves
3 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [] Thought-Knot Seer
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
2 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 [] Warping Wail
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [C13] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [RTR] Pithing Needle

This is a most “classic” veteran 8 post deck so I will not say a lot.
First, burn is now an easy matchup thank to glimmer/thragtusk and obstinate. The posts and eldrazi give nice mid game. TKS is just amazing as well as the one reality smasher. This 5 mana guy can be cast second turn (with veteran/phyrexian tower) that is not possible with primeval titan. In addition in a decay meta, 5 manas make a lot of difference!
I like wood elves but sometimes this card just lack some “power”… The same is true for ancient stirrings. Sometime it’s give you the good card sometime, just the wrong land or nothing… Warping wail is great, with storm I won some match just by: “surprise, your tutor is counter!”.
Endbringer is a really strong card. I won a land matchup by blocking Marit Lage. In other way, the card is very slow. Six manas and when it enter the battlefield it did nothing… The same is not true for primeval, you always had two lands and, thanks to eye of ugin, finish the next turn. Same is also true for reality smaher, thanks to haste, this guy destroys planeswalker…
For the biggest guys, Ulamog is just amazing. This guy can deal all card. Two ensnaring bridges, no problem! Same is not true for Emrakul. Yes it’s just a win button but I feel like that when I can cast him, the game is already won. He is just overkill. And if you don’t have primeval titan, it’s just impossible to cast him. Same is not true for Ulamog. Actually, I am just playing Emrakul because I have some painters in my meta. But I feel like that without Emrakul it’s still an easy matchup for us (in addition, the sideboard with toughtseize and surgical extraction just destroy them; we just have to be careful in our opening hand to have basic land/veteran to deal a blood moon/magus turn one).
With this list, I performed two small tournaments and made again two top4.

Actually, for a big tournament in middle of june, I am working this list:
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [] Wastes
3 [R] Bayou
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [UNH] Forest
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [] Reality Smasher
1 [] Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 [M14] Scavenging Ooze
1 [M13] Thragtusk
1 [] Tireless Tracker
1 [] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 [] Matter Reshaper
3 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [] Thought-Knot Seer
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [C13] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [] Warping Wail
SB: 1 [] Krosan Grip

The idea is to be again more midrange. We know that we have the best late game in the meta. We just have to not die in early and mid-game and settle enough lands.
From the tests I have actually done I can say:
Sakura-tribe elder seems better that wood elves. Turn 2 to generate 4 manas turn 3 is TKS turn 3. And sometime we need a waste that wood elves cannot trigger.
I am testing 3 Matter reshaper. This guy is amazing, it’s tempo and can make a lot of trick. It can be sacrifice under cabal therapy. First, just put a land which is nice for us. Sometime I put a SDT (nice also) and the best I have done is put a Pernicious deed with my opponent having a Meddling mage on pernicious! With SDT, we can make a lot of trick with this guy! In addition, he could be cast T2 with eye of ugin.
I definitively remove Emrakul. I am agree with Ricardio and Arianhod, maybe we have to consider this deck more like Nic Fit than 12posts. That’s why I always look on Nic Fit thread. Considering this I am testing Tireless tracker and surprisingly, this guy is just stupid and powerful. The card is not easy to play but we have a lot of way to trigger it: veteran, sakura, titan and of course fetch. You just have to trigger him one time. I tested several time with tireless in opening hand, it's just difficult to know exaclty when to play but if you succeed this guy can go very big and give a lot of card!
The goal is still the same, resolve a veteran, wait with decay/pernicious and cast the win button primeval titan/eye of ugin. I just have some more midrange pressure and sometime (a lot of time in fact) it’s just enough (TKS can win the game by himself).
Actually, the sideboard is mainly against storm. But I have a lot of problem versus lands and reanimator. Never play against dredge with this deck actually.
To finish, I really like this deck it's always perform nice and interactive games. Yes the deck is not easy and we have to really be care about manabase (it’s important to know when mulligan or not) but it’s a really powerful one.

[Ricardio]

For not having English as a primary language, that was surprisingly pleasant to read. I agree with your evaluation of the deck and the direction you are taking looks to be correct. I am proud of you for doing so well and adapting the deck in such a forward manner. I am biased because primeval titan is my favorite card but I want to have 4 in my list at all times because you never feel bad when casting it. Are you taking this list to GP Prague?

[benoasan]

Hi Ricardio and thank for return & support.

Nope, unfortunately I will not go to GP Prague (I am an old player with a big family!).

I am agree with you, primeval titan is a great card and you never feel bad when you cast him. I will say more that you feel like you have win when you cast him! But sometimes, when I played 4 titan and I have two in hand and only few lands on the board I didn't feel so well...

In my list, titan is still the win button. With gsz, I still have 7 titans and for me it's enough to find him. I took one reality smasher for the last titan and I am really happy with him because with only 5 manas you can cast him one turn before titan (in fact one land before) or with veteran/phyrexian tower cast him T2 or with eye of ugin cast him really fast or search for him after titan (and before Ulamog which need more mana > 7 + 3 for smasher; 7 + 8 for Ulamog). Together with titan, they deal 11 trample damages!

[Ricardio]

Hi Ricardio and thank for return & support.

Nope, unfortunately I will not go to GP Prague (I am an old player with a big family!).

I am agree with you, primeval titan is a great card and you never feel bad when you cast him. I will say more that you feel like you have win when you cast him! But sometimes, when I played 4 titan and I have two in hand and only few lands on the board I didn't feel so well...

In my list, titan is still the win button. With gsz, I still have 7 titans and for me it's enough to find him. I took one reality smasher for the last titan and I am really happy with him because with only 5 manas you can cast him one turn before titan (in fact one land before) or with veteran/phyrexian tower cast him T2 or with eye of ugin cast him really fast or search for him after titan (and before Ulamog which need more mana > 7 + 3 for smasher; 7 + 8 for Ulamog). Together with titan, they deal 11 trample damages!

Too bad you cant make the gp but good to have a seasoned person playing the deck. I will find room for a single smasher. I need to reconfigure my deck and go from there. I will admit its been a while since I have worked on this so its rusty theory.

[benoasan]

I was actually thinking about switch Glimmerpost & Cloudpost with Llanowar Wastes & Eldrazi Temple.

Theorically if you succeed the cast of a primeval, next turn you will have 7 manas and an eye of ugin to tutor what you need... I think Llanowar Wastes will help manabase early and Eldrazi Temple will give more pressure from our "little" eldrazis. Need some tests...

[cherson]

https://youtu.be/dZsPLBTeYPU

Epic game ricardio. Was actually looking for a 8post match and found this one.

[Ricardio]

https://youtu.be/dZsPLBTeYPU

Epic game ricardio. Was actually looking for a 8post match and found this one.

thanks 4 deeds are good.

[benoasan]

thanks 4 deeds are good.

May you post the corresponding list Ricardio?

How was World Breaker in you tests?

Do you like the reality smasher (you played 2?).

[Ricardio]

May you post the corresponding list Ricardio?

How was World Breaker in you tests?

Do you like the reality smasher (you played 2?).

The world breaker was fine. I played 4 smashers.

4 vet
4 cabal therapy
3 top
3 decay
1 sakura TE
4 deed
1 oracle of mul
4 tks
4 smasher
2 tusk
3 primeval titan
3 gsz
1 newlamog
1 koz, big d

4 temple
2 eye
4 llanowar waste
4 fetches
4 forest
1 waste
1 swamp
3 bayou

Something like that.

[cherson]

I played some games yesterday and I am simply not able to fix the mana base. most of the time I played against delver and wasteland hits hard. I was simply not able to get 6 mana to cast ptime before they killed me. I am somehow missing pte/swords or in general cheap removal. fucking flying delver killed me and I was not able to do anything, maybe I had bad luck because in general I have 3 decay and 3 deed main plus 1 pulse. need to test more.

[benoasan]

I played some games yesterday and I am simply not able to fix the mana base. most of the time I played against delver and wasteland hits hard. I was simply not able to get 6 mana to cast ptime before they killed me. I am somehow missing pte/swords or in general cheap removal. fucking flying delver killed me and I was not able to do anything, maybe I had bad luck because in general I have 3 decay and 3 deed main plus 1 pulse. need to test more.

I have no problem versus delver, thanks to decay. You just have to always fetch basics and always be (very) careful to Stifle (and POP if they have). In addition Delver cannot trade TKS and they don't have lot of creatures... And they can't remove veteran...

Actually I am playing this (not 8 posts anymore but do the same) :

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Reality Smasher
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

[cherson]

I have no problem versus delver, thanks to decay. You just have to always fetch basics and always be (very) careful to Stifle (and POP if they have). In addition Delver cannot trade TKS and they don't have lot of creatures... And they can't remove veteran...


I thought exactly the same but somehow I lost. your list is basically a mix of eldrazia and nicfit right? looks very good.
what I liked on 8post was the mana explosion and life gain from posts but the steady mana problem really pi*** me off.

how does your deck work again burn and the colorless 'real' eldrazi? maybe u can share your experience on the different match ups in general.
ptime is basically a win condition for you and gets a missing temple?

have u been able to do further testing since your last larger post?

[benoasan]

I thought exactly the same but somehow I lost. your list is basically a mix of eldrazia and nicfit right? looks very good.
what I liked on 8post was the mana explosion and life gain from posts but the steady mana problem really pi*** me off.

how does your deck work again burn and the colorless 'real' eldrazi? maybe u can share your experience on the different match ups in general.
ptime is basically a win condition for you and gets a missing temple?

have u been able to do further testing since your last larger post?

Yes, I am playing this list actually. I played a lot the 8 post list and you are true, this new list is a mix between nic-fit and eldrazi but keeping the explosive late game if you succesfully cast a primeval titan. In fact, switching posts to eldra temple / llan waste don't change a lot for the amount of mana you need late game. If you cast titan, you bring eye of ugin and eldra temple and you are able to cast all your deck (I don't play Emrakul anymore, just Ulamog). The goal is just to cast Ulamog and finish.

The only lost we have is life gain with glimmer. But in my list I play MD ooze and thragtusk. In addition I play 2 obstinate baloth SB so burn is not a problem.

The big gain with this manabase is more stability: llanowar waste in your opening hand is the 3 "colors" you need and explosivity with eldrazi temple (I play 3 reshapper, 3 TKS and 1 smasher) which not enter the battlefield tap as post. With previous manabase I mulligan a lot, actually it's really fine.

Furthermore, the list is more midrange (reshaper and other) so you have always something to do. And as I said, you keep the very powerful lategame (thx to primeval/eye of ugin).

Versus Eldrazi, I really have no problem. We just have to put a veteran or reshaper and trigger a pernicious and it's finish for them cause they go out of fuel very fast. In addition, chalice of the void is not a big problem for us, we can still GSZ at 1 for veteran and still trigger the sacrifice with a countered therapy.

I didn't play a lot of matchup with this deck but I am really use to play versus aggroloam and wasteland is not such a problem.
I played versus bant and have a positive matchup (they cannot deal eye of ugin - STP versus veteran is annoying and Elspeth is sometimes a big problem!).
Delver deck and grixis are positive matchup I think.
I didn't test versus miracle with this new list, I hope that I still have an easy matchup (never loosed with previous lists).
Nic Fit is easy cause we are bigger than them.
Merfolk is easy matchup thx to pernicious/toxic deluge.
Painter is easy (and more after SB with surgical/warping wail) - just to be care in our opening hand to have basic lands.
Storm is always a difficult matchup but TKS/eldra temple helps a lot (in addition I love diabolic intent to tutor fast what you need).
Reanimator/Lands are bad matchup.

[cherson]

The big gain with this manabase is more stability: llanowar waste in your opening hand is the 3 "colors" you need and explosivity with eldrazi temple (I play 3 reshapper, 3 TKS and 1 smasher) which not enter the battlefield tap as post. With previous manabase I mulligan a lot, actually it's really fine.


I think that is exactly the point. llanowar seems strange compared to duals but in this deck it is simply a three color land -> triple :wink:
will give it a try and thanks for your thoughts.

[moseby]

Looking for thoughts on the list. The alterations I have made are untested, unfortunately I have just not had the opportunity to get out at all.

3 pernicious deed
1 toxic deluge
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 ulamog the ceaseless hunger
4 green sun's zenith
3 abrupt decay
4 veteran explorer
1 STE
4 primeval titan
3 sensei's divining top
4 cabal therapy
4 thought-knot seer
1 world breaker
1 endbringer

1 swamp
2 bayou
4 forest
4 glimmerpost
4 cloudpost
4 verdant catacombs
3 lanowar wastes
1 wastes
1 karakas
1 eye of ugin

Worldbreaker and endbringer are flex slots, will definately try Emrakul v.2 once he is out.

[benoasan]

Small tournament this week-end, 9 players, 5 rounds.

Finished first with this list:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Reality Smasher
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

Win 2-1 versus Enchanteress (thanks pernicious & krosan grip & Ulamog)
Win 2-0 versus Death and Taxes (thanks pernicious & eldrazi versus mother)
Win 2-0 versus Zoo (thanks thragcorne & baloth)
Win 2-1 versus Tezzeret control (thanks pernicious and TKS)
Loss 0-2 versus storm (despite I had very good hand at G2 but he killed T2)

Will definitively try Emrakul v2.0 when will be available!

[Fatal]

Some new good tools to test:

Distended Mindbender

Eldritch Evolution

Assembling it to this list:


4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Primeval Titan
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Forest
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Karakas
1 Wood Elves
1 Thragtusk


Still didnt design which to cut, but I think with Evolution it could change a lot -less overcosted bombs - mostly some one-of and more 3-4 mana value creatures.