What would it take?

[Finn]

At the significant risk of seeing this thread to turn into YET ANOTHER BAN BRAINSTORM thread, I have a designer's conundrum for you all.

I have argued that Brainstorm is good, etc. In fact, in the recently closed thread, I said this:
We just need more cards that are unusable by blue and that weaken Brainstorm. I hope that effects randomly pepper the format over the next few years to bring the card down a notch. Just a notch...or even better yet, give the other colors equally as fun and skill-intensive staples of the same power. Kudos if they can get these cards to hose each other and Brainstorm, thus accomplishing both and limiting their ubiquity at the same time. I have placed a number of requirements on suitable cards in other colors that inhibit Brainstorm in some groovy way that matters. Note what Tormod said in the same thread:

But to me Deathrite Shaman was printed to be the GB "brainstorm". It fixes mana, its a clock with evasion, its life gain, its a disruption card against by strategies, it ramps, it adds consistency to strategies.I'm picking on you a bit here, but just a bit. See, this is true except that the best Shaman deck is BUG Delver. With Legacy's powerful mana supply, even a card that is invested in two other colors can be successfully co-opted, thereby making it a part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. Here are some generically powerful cards that have successfully got around appearing in the same deck as Brainstorm in some fashion.

Goblin Lackey
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Wild Nacatl
Chalice of the Void
Life from the Loam
Gaea's Cradle

Actually, there may be a Loam deck out there that has Brainstorms in it, but there really is not room for both in the same deck. OK, of these, Lackey is part of a red tribe that requires a lot of creatures to succeed. Ditto Thalia, except that she also actively hoses Brainstorm. Nacatl requires three other colors, and I recall that when Zoo was hot quite a few people tried to fit blue in anyway for Brainstorm. Chalice is a Brainstorm hoser. Loam is a competing draw engine, and an inferior one based upon results. Cradle, I am not sure why this has not been paired with Brainstorm actually. I have played the two and liked them together.

Consider this if you choose to suggest a card. It must:

1. -is good enough/cheap enough/generic enough to be a staple
2. -disrupts Brainstorm at least a little
3. -can not profitably be used by a deck that includes Brainstorm


Some other cards that come close are:
Green Sun's Zenith (1 and arguably 2, not 3)
Abrupt Decay (1 and 2, not 3)
Spirit of the Labyrinth (2 and 3, not quite 1)
Thoughtseize (1 and 3, not 2) [EDIT<-, swap 2 and 3 here...sorta]

ex.
Brain-Dead Neighbor
:wb:
Creature - Human Zombie Stoner

Brain-Dead Neighbor enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it if you have fewer cards in your graveyard than each opponent.
Brain-Dead Neighbor enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it if an opponent has more cards in his/her graveyard than you.
Players may cast spells only on their own turn.
2/2

Eh, it's hard. But you get the point.

[Lord Seth]

Consider this if you choose to suggest a card. It must:

1. -is good enough/cheap enough/generic enough to be a staple
2. -disrupts Brainstorm at least a little
3. -can not profitably be used by a deck that includes Brainstorm


Some other cards that come close are:
Green Sun's Zenith (1 and arguably 2, not 3)
Abrupt Decay (1 and 2, not 3)
Spirit of the Labyrinth (2 and 3, not quite 1)
Thoughtseize (1 and 3, not 2)How does Thoughtseize fit #3? It's quite easy to find decks that run Thoughtseize and Brainstorm together.

[Finn]

Yeah, it doesn't. I should swap 2 and 3, though even that is not a good fit. Whatever. Also, I should edit the card.

[Lt. Quattro]

Chains of Mephistopheles Hate Zombie
:1::b:
Creature - Zombie Hater
If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in his or her draw step each turn, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card this way, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn't discard a card this way, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.
2/2

Does black have any other hate permanents/spells that could be tacked onto a bear that wont play nice with brainstorm?

Sphere of Resistance Hate Goblin
:1::r:
Creature - Goblin Hater
Spells cost :1: more to cast.
2/2

Since red doesn't have any good hate permanents/ways to interact with the stack it will be given an artifact one. Made worse than thalia since red is not allowed to be good at anything other than burn.

[Finn]

Lt Quattro, those are hate cards but not staples.

[Lt. Quattro]

Lt Quattro, those are hate cards but not staples.

Why can't they be staples?

[AggroControl]

:b::r:
Enchantment - Will of Mephistopheles
If a player would draw a card other than during his draw phase instead reveal the top card of his library and put it in the graveyard.
That player loses 1 life.

:b::g:
Creature - Minion of Mephistopheles
If a player would draw a card other than during his draw phase instead reveal the top card of his library and put it in the graveyard.
Put a +1/+1 counter on Minion of Mephistopheles for each card placed into opponent's graveyard by this effect. Minion of Mephistopheles gets -1/-1 until end of turn for each card placed into your graveyard by this effect.
2/2

Brainstorm can still be used during your draw phase but at no other time. Brainstorm then becomes a Dredge enabler and Dredge splashes blue for it. Other lists play it but are probably tuning it out against Grixis and Jund. The solution is possible because Brainstorm is not targeted, it's self-only.

Note that both of these play just fine alongside Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf. They're both easily removed by Abrupt Decay and any number of underused blue bounce effects.

[TheArchitect]

In the past I have always though that we need more good cards like Thalia, Chains, Spirit of the Labyrinth. Things that actively hose brainstorm and/or blue.

But Finn, you bring up a great point that I did not even really think of before: making blue cards that would fit well in already blue decks that discourages brainstorms use. Its very rare for blue decks to exist WITHOUT brainstorm, but there are 2 cases I can think of: Merfolk and UB tezzeret. Merfolk doesnt really want brainstorm at all. UB tezzeret would LOVE to cast brainstorms, but playing chalice is just better. Chalice is able to be better than BS in that shell because sol lands AND the artifact synergy with the rest of the deck. Just an example of where this effect occurs already. Its worth exploring more, but I have to admit, finding a reason NOT to be playing brainstorm in blue is hard.


Note: I am not in support of banning brainstorm, but I do think seeing less of it would be a good thing.

EDIT: Also, it would help if they stop printing the best creatures in blue: TNN, Delver, Snapcaster. I would love if blue didn't get another legacy playable creature (outside of 1 ofs or SB cards) for the rest of forever. You used to have use other colors if you wanted efficient creatures.

Also, how about this. Probably way too narrow:

Really Hateful Bear RG

Creature - Bear

Protection from Blue
Cannot be countered
Gets +1/+1 for each blue card in opponent's graveyard.

1/2

[Humphrey]

at the significant risk of seeing this thread to turn into yet another ban brainstorm thread, i have a designer's conundrum for you all.



unban mental misstep

[AggroControl]

Blue is dominant in Legacy and has been dominant since the format was invented. Other colors have had a chance to shine now and then but we're always back to blue-based lists as the best lists in the format sooner or later.

Finding ways to hose blue card draw specifically is the only way to fix the long-term competitive imbalance that blue has created. This is because you can splash blue into almost anything to get draw out of it if you want it. Card draw is fundamental to card advantage. Card advantage is fundamental to board position. Having one color have half the usable card draw in the format guarantees that color will always be the dominant color.

It's time for a more balanced environment. Banning Brainstorm would be a great start. However other cards would also be banned in that round of fixing and nobody would like the list likely to draw the most attention. Finding a way to nerf card draw in general is a better solution. Give blue some real trade-offs and weaknesses in exchange for the card advantage and selection. Maybe some new blue power will come to the forefront once card draw has disadvantages alongside the advantages.

If blue was restricted just to Merfolk and Tron type lists for awhile it would look a lot like black and white have looked over the years. What's so wrong with that?

[Meekrab]

unban mental misstep
If you want to unban a counterspell, Mana Drain is as least interesting to play with and not that good in most Brainstorm decks. Yes it's ridiculous in Miracles but that deck only plays Brainstorm because it can't play 8 Sensei's Divining Top.

[AggroControl]

If you want to unban a counterspell, Mana Drain is as least interesting to play with and not that good in most Brainstorm decks. Yes it's ridiculous in Miracles but that deck only plays Brainstorm because it can't play 8 Sensei's Divining Top.

Mana Drain would make things much worse in terms of play balance. It was an over-powered spell back in the day when it could easily cost you 4 life from mana burn. Now it would be a free spell that enabled a huge amount of blue card draw alongside the many X draw spells that are not used because no blue lists every have the mana to use them in a competitive game state. It would enable Mindslaver and other really horrible things. It would make Tron ridiculously powerful against the format. It would make Entreat the Angels worse.

[Barook]

Another Brainstorm topic and a shitty card creation thread? That's asking for trouble. :tongue:

I also think Tormod's comment about DRS was an interesting one. The problem with DRS is how splashable it is and that Blue decks make the best use out of it, again. DRS is the most-played creature in the format for a reason.

I think it's pretty hard to tackle the consistency issue in other colors without making them OP, stupid as hell in design and/or blue decks packing said cards even better.

Thalia was a simple upgrade to Glowrider, yet it was a brilliant design. Spirit of the Labyrinth would have been good as well if it had built-in flash to combat Brainstorm and double as combat step removal against attackers, but they missed that opportunity.

Consistency fixers need to cheap enough to operate with 1 mana (see Brainstorm, DRS) to minimize the impact of shitty draws. It also needs to be limited enough in its usage to prevent blue decks from using it en masse.

Let's imagine the following fixer for D&T:

Tutor of the Meek :w:
Creature - Human Solder
When Tutor of the Meek enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a basic Plains card or white creature card with power 2 or less, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. If you do, choose a card from your hand and put it on the bottom of your library.
1/1

That's just the basic design. Could be legendary for Karakas tricks or a 1/2 (a 2/1 might be stretching it), but that's a matter of power level discussion. What the card does is fixing crappy draws (mana flood/screw) while doing stuff that is on-color and blue decks can't get much out of it. They could fetch a SFM and that's about it. While that's a pretty good chain, would it be worth the slots? :really:



Why can't they be staples?
Red resistors are about as off-color as TNN is.

And the Chains bear doesn't cut it. If Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't cut it because it's too slow and lacks Flash, then how does a argueably worse body in black make the cut?

[Meekrab]

Mana Drain would make things much worse in terms of play balance. It was an over-powered spell back in the day when it could easily cost you 4 life from mana burn. Now it would be a free spell that enabled a huge amount of blue card draw alongside the many X draw spells that are not used because no blue lists every have the mana to use them in a competitive game state. It would enable Mindslaver and other really horrible things. It would make Tron ridiculously powerful against the format. It would make Entreat the Angels worse.
Uhhh that's the idea. The decks that abuse Brainstorm are not the decks you just listed. I agree it would be disruptive to the format.

[menace13]

These would probably be a little too powerful. Each has a built in caveat to ensure blue can't profitably employ them. They're fast enough and punish drawing cards enough to be used.

Heaven :w:
Enchantment
If a player would draw a card except for the first card drawn on their draw step that player sacrifices a land for each card drawn this way.
Sacrifice this if you control an Island


Hell :b:
Enchantment
If a player would draw a card except for the first card drawn on their draw step that player discards a card at random for each card drawn this way.
Sacrifice this if you control an Island.


Hearth :r:
Enchantment
If a player would draw a card except for the first card drawn on their draw step that player takes 2 damage for each card drawn this way. This damage cannot be prevented.
Sacrifice this if you control an Island.

Paradise :g:
Enchantment
Players may not draw cards unless it is the first card drawn on their draw step.
Sacrifice this if you control an Island.

[wonderPreaux]

- Nerf Brainstorm
- Reduces Blue's ability to co-opt good cards from other colors

Why not just ban fetches then? Suddenly 3-4 color "Blue and every good Green/White/Black card" decks are much less viable, brainstorm isn't quite so much better than other cantrips, and the actual lack of fixing from lost fetches is felt mostly equally across the format.

[AggroControl]

- Nerf Brainstorm
- Reduces Blue's ability to co-opt good cards from other colors

Why not just ban fetches then? Suddenly 3-4 color "Blue and every good Green/White/Black card" decks are much less viable, brainstorm isn't quite so much better than other cantrips, and the actual lack of fixing from lost fetches is felt mostly equally across the format.

This likely turns into a format dominated by 2-color lists including blue as one of the colors. Simic is probably the big winner but it might be Azorius or Izzet.

[bakofried]

That'd make the price of duals asinine (more so, anyway).

[AggroControl]

That'd make the price of duals asinine (more so, anyway).

Yep, color fixing was rarely a problem in the old single format before fetches existed. The best lists were usually three colors to splash the best cards. Blue/white with red splash for bolts. Blue/white with black splash for Demonic Tutor. Red/White with blue splash for Ancestral Recall and Time Walk (Balance lists). The splashes were made easier by the fact that everybody was playing Black Lotus and at least 3 moxes.

[(nameless one)]

I agree with banning Fetchlands.

Fetchlands have changes the power level of these cards (for better or worse):
-Brainstorm
-Jace the Mind Sculptor
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Tarmogoyf
-Knight of the Reliquary
-Deathrite Shaman
-Wasteland
-Life from the Loam

I'm sure there's more.

Alternatively, why can't people just run Suppression Field? Cut off fetches and blue has a terrible time splashing colors. It also makes Brainstorm craptastic.

[Megadeus]

Yeah you ban the fetches which nerfs BS, but then blue still has stuff like ponder to help fix their mana whereas no one else has anything but top. I think Green has the best cards to compete with Brainstorm between Green Sun and stuff like Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library, or Deathrite. They tried to make red work with Faithless looting, unfortunately it being card DA, plus a solid main-boardable GY hate card like Deathrite makes it poop. Black has Bob for raw CA I guess but it needs to survive. White just hates on blue (like DnT) I guess, but they don't really have a way to "Smooth draws" or generally be as consistent.

Outside of banning BS, I think that the best opetion is to attempt to create more cards that can make other colors equally consistent rather than trying to print hate cards (which generally end up being a bit too narrow). Green Sun was one success towards such a goal, I don't see why we can't try to mimic that sort of thing in the other colors.

Red Green Sun (Yes I know Red sun already exists but you get my point)

X:r:

Sorcery (Maybe instant?)

Search your library for a red instant or sorcery card. You may cast it without paying it's mana cost.

Too OP? Too Weak? Shit design?

[bakofried]

Goddamn it, this is supposed to be about designing new cards, not banning shit.

Instead of a hoser, what about a card that was color intensive, and in a non blue color? Costs one or two colored mana to activate, think somewhere between Survival of the Fittest and Necromancer's Stockpile. I know it's vague but it's a starting point.

[wonderPreaux]

This likely turns into a format dominated by 2-color lists including blue as one of the colors. Simic is probably the big winner but it might be Azorius or Izzet.

IDK about that. fetches + duals make 4 color decks playable now, but there are so many "buddy" duals, pain lands, shock duals etc on top of regular duals that i'm sure 3 color could work w/o fetches just like 4 color works now. it would occasionally get hung up on mana, but would boast so many power cards to be worthwhile (see: esper deathblade now). having to devote more lands to fixing your own mana would prevent wasteland from being used so easily by U+X+X color decks, because it would rapidly become nonviable as a manabase. we also have so many rainbow lands now that combo could operate too, but would take a risky on those painful rainbow lands, such that an aggro deck could actually represent more of a threat and brainstorm would be used as a combo enabler (swapping land for business on the combo turn, since there are no fetches, or defending from discard) as opposed to omnipresent setup throughout the game.

[Megadeus]

Goddamn it, this is supposed to be about designing new cards, not banning shit.

Instead of a hoser, what about a card that was color intensive, and in a non blue color? Costs one or two colored mana to activate, think somewhere between Survival of the Fittest and Necromancer's Stockpile. I know it's vague but it's a starting point.

This. Let's pretend banning it is not an option. Printing hosers obviously isn't good enough because they just aren't consistent enough to really be playable. They basically just printed about as good a BS hoser as I could imagine without it being OP and It hardly see's play.

[morgan_coke]

Brainstorm would be a lot less of a problem if Snapcaster was red, TNN was white, and some other bullshit blue card was the color it was supposed to be instead of blue. But that's besides the point.

I'd make

W
Maze Runner
Creature -
Artifacts and Lands come into play tapped.
1/2

Root Maze is fucking brutal beyond belief against both blue and combo and fetches, this creature would give selesnya hate decks enough copies of it to make it worthwhile to build their deck around it. Hell, make it an enchantment, I dunno.

R
Stealy Stealy
Instant
If a player would draw cards from a spell or effect, you draw those cards instead unless that player pays 2.

It's cheap, it's conditional, it is brutal against brainstorm. Maybe fix the wording so you can use it as a cantrip off of their 1st draw of the turn.

G
Attak Moar
Instant
If an opponent has drawn more than 2 cards this turn, take an extra turn after this one.

That one green time walk from odyssey wasn't overpowered, so I doubt this would be either, it also hits ponder and other "draw a bunch of cards" crap besides just brainstorm.

1B
Evil Librarian
Creature -
Whenever a player shuffles their library, they discard a card.
2/2

It can be used by you for madness or some nonsense to benefit you, punishes the shuffle aspect that makes brainstorm useful, good general hate on something that makes matches take forever. Or maybe just make it opponent only so people don't have to think about it. I dunno.

Burned Ruins of Alexandria
Legendary Land
T: add 1
Players can only draw one card per turn.

You know, just so everyone can get in on the fun.

There's lots of ways and room to do this kind of thing, wotc just needs to decide to do it. But they won't. Because R&D is biased in favor of blue. Some of this is pragmatic so combo doesn't overrun the format, most of it is because these guys came up playing blue and its their favorite color. Also, letting other colors interact with the stack, even if you leave counters to blue, is apparently against some kind of rule there.

[Aggro_zombies]

Another Brainstorm topic and a shitty card creation thread? That's asking for trouble. :tongue:
I concur.