Surgical Snapcaster (Snapcaster Extraction)

[Nation Prophetic]

Surgical Snapcaster

This has been a pet project of mine over the course of the past two years or so. Been making adjustments and slimming down the deck to suit my local environment. Never brought it to a tournament beyond a few local legacy nights at Past Present Future comics, but I'm starting to think it might be good enough to break it into a more competitive environment at long last.

I made it initially as something that would just tear the heart out of every deck it played. Winning didn't matter so much as ruining their deck one piece at a time. Got its start as a black discard and removal deck that I added blue to when innistrad came out and I saw snapcaster for the first time. The goal was to make the deck as light and fast as I could make it with the ability to recur or copy snapcaster and to recur surgical extraction and extripate as many times as possible while also including True-name and Delver for quality beat-sticks on the cheap. The deck seeks to draw out it's opponents threats and isolate the central strategies that make their deck run, then remove them one at a time. More often than not, Their counters have a single run at stopping or stalling the momentum of this deck before they're removed from the equation with extraction or extripate. When they counter, you simply remove the counter. Cabal therapy is excellent in conjunction with either the hand-revealing bonus of extraction and extripate and the fact that it can be recurred outside of snapcaster via its own ability. The miracle is for abusing snapcaster and cabal further while also presenting targets of removal that might otherwise escape the initial extripate/extraction flurry by being on the board. Recently added Noxious Revival to continue the abuse of the miracle and ensure continuous flips for Delver.

The general strategy is very simple. Bait your opponent into using their key draw/countermagic suites with your own threats and remove them with extraction or extripate. They use snaplands, you remove them. Ghost quarter their special land and take them out of the game. Attack their manabase whenever possible. I've been toying with the idea of using 4 ghost quarters and I'd love some advice on that... But as of yet, Noxious has allowed me to reuse ghost quarter against decks that rely heavily on special land. When you're in a superior board position, use true-name and phantasmal image copies of true-name to come across for unblockable attacks against what should be an extremely limited opponent. You are out to remove as much of their decks ability to fight as you possibly can and abuse your removal suites to the highest degree possible. Games tend to get very slow and drawn out. Not alot of fun to play against from the swath of most common Legacy decks I'm told. Regularly ruins reanimator especially hard. I've yet to play a deck that has a hard counter to this strategy beyond offering up their own removal suites in a similar composition with heavy discard.


Counts : 60 main/15 sb


Creatures:12

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage

Spells:31

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Quicken
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Noxious Revival
4 Devastation Tide

Lands:17

2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Watery Grave
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Creeping Tar Pit

SB: 15

4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Bloodghast
4 Smallpox
3 Crucible of Worlds



UPDATE 9/16/14

Boarded out True-Name for 4 copies of Quicken. The ability to play Tide on my opponents turn and drop and instant speed cabal therapy via flashback or otherwise is just too good a trick to leave out of the bag. Also added a sideboard that give the deck a little more punch when it needs it via bloodghast and smallpox and crucible.

[Nation Prophetic]

Was running Glimpse the unthinkable previously... Trying to figure out if it's worth running in the current build. Funny enough, it got me a few wins via draw-out by recurring it with snapcaster. I know that's not something to lean on, but it is something.

[tescrin]

Meh. It's a lot of card disadvantage that you try to make up for with Snappy. I think the prolific use of DRS (who can block surgical) and the lack of ability to deal with Liliana or Show and Tell is bad. Devastation tide is neat, but ultimately I don't see the point.

If they're ahead enough that you use that, aren't they going to be more ahead when you lose a card and they just recast their stuff? It bounces your own things which doesn't do much for you. I feel like Chain of Vapor (or just about any other 1-mana bounce spell) would be better.

Without the ability to destroy lands I don't think that this plan has a chance of working well. Stifle + Wasteland would be a good start so you could nail a fetch, then extract it; leaving the opponent with nothing and 3 less chances to draw land. Stifle would also give you a chance against Storm or planeswalkers.

[Nation Prophetic]

Meh. It's a lot of card disadvantage that you try to make up for with Snappy. I think the prolific use of DRS (who can block surgical) and the lack of ability to deal with Liliana or Show and Tell is bad. Devastation tide is neat, but ultimately I don't see the point.

If they're ahead enough that you use that, aren't they going to be more ahead when you lose a card and they just recast their stuff? It bounces your own things which doesn't do much for you. I feel like Chain of Vapor (or just about any other 1-mana bounce spell) would be better.

Without the ability to destroy lands I don't think that this plan has a chance of working well. Stifle + Wasteland would be a good start so you could nail a fetch, then extract it; leaving the opponent with nothing and 3 less chances to draw land. Stifle would also give you a chance against Storm or planeswalkers.



Thank you for all the input.

My thinking as far as Devastation tide goes is specifically for its interaction with cabal therapy and snapcaster. I tend to use it sooner rather than later to guarantee a connection with cabal and ensure it's in the yard for use later with Noxious. I see it primarily as the means to Bounce their things and discard them and give me the ability to reuse snapcaster and phantasmal. When I've gone up against DRS in the past, it hasn't been too much of a stretch to simply bounce him with the lot and then cabal and extripate/extract all copies of him. I know exactly what you mean though about DRS hosing me otherwise. Maybe some spot destruction is in order. Like I said, it's a work in progress.

As for Liliana, she's a tough matchup when she's out in spades early, but I find that once I resolve true-name I usually can get her off the field and remove her from the game. Just my experience thus far, but I haven't had her stick around on the field for very long in the various matchups I've had against her.

Haven't played many show and tell decks in my meta, but the hope is that I go first, that I can resolve Gitaxian, Cabal, then extraction before the hurt comes down the pipe. I'm sure some degree of spot destruction would be great to include against griselbrand and co, but honestly I think I'll take the odds I have with what I've got or incorperate FOW into the side to deal with that sort of thing. Also hope I can resolve a Devastation tide against a resolved Emrakul and clear it out that way :/

Ghost quarter has been remarkably effective in the land destruction department and serves as an impromptu shuffle for my own library when I brainstorm without a fetch. Honestly, I really dig it for that utility and the ability to sometimes nail an opponents land to boot. Wasteland would work for only the mana denial aspect for me and while certainly better in that regard... I enjoy the versatility of the quarter for now.

Stifle I've tried in a few builds and haven't been able to make it work with any real success... I do see what you're saying though. Maybe I should take another look and see if I can strike a balance with it.

Honestly, the card disadvantage is hardly noticable in this deck most of the time. It tends to gather enough removal in the opening hand and recurs it enough through the first and second turn that the enemy is largely defanged pretty early on. Them having advantage is meaningless when it's a hand full of either land that they can't spend on any of their threats or threats that they have no mana to cast. Even when this deck has little to no hand, by that time, I've usually sealed away the primary threats on the board.
Again, this is just in my experience with the local scene and not anything in the upper echelon of competition.

What would you do to make up for the apparent card disadvantage?

[Poron]

4 Stifle

[Darkenslight]

4 Stifle

Would it be worth running Trickbind instead in this list? OR is it the one-mana nature of Stifle that's the key?

[Nation Prophetic]

Would it be worth running Trickbind instead in this list? OR is it the one-mana nature of Stifle that's the key?
Love that card. Better than stifle in this deck imo. I'll play test a list with it.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I wonder if a couple Erradicate would work in a deck like this. It is a bit expensive though.

[Nation Prophetic]

Huh... Well, I put together a list that runs minus 3 Noxious and minus 4 Gitaxian for 3 Liliana of the Veil and 4 Dark ritual. Seems to be pretty disruptive across the board and gives me a serious mana bump that I can recur with snapcaster as well as a solid card to channel their counters/destruction into for extracting... Good add?

[Nation Prophetic]

I wonder if a couple Erradicate would work in a deck like this. It is a bit expensive though.

Yeah, the deck runs pretty much only in the 3 mana territory. Very cool card though. Maybe if I keep the dark rituals and Liliana it'd have the wiggle room to make that kind of mana achievable.

[Daize]

Hum... if you're doing it for mana acceleration it won't get you that far: 2 mana for snapcaster, 1 mana for dark ritual, and you're back to... 3 mana.

Also Eradicate? It's a sorcery as well as 4 mana. I'd rather have Liliana.

[thefreakaccident]

Sinkhole and wasteland seem to be missing from the list, and stifle while you're at it. I played a deck with all those and snappy caster, sometimes it worked amazing, and sometimes it just got shit all over simply because your opponent plays lots of basics.

The problem with milling in general is that it is slow and dies without removal in the face of powerful first turn beaters. Hell, a shaman could probably kill you in time, not to mention you play enough spells to keep him active forever.


Not too sure if the concept is even viable, there's too much to worry about on the stack and the board before you can focus on the deck or yard, but that's just my two cents. I hope the deck works out despite my reservations, in theory it would be fun to play.

[amalek0]

It sounds like the wasterpate play taken to an entire deck. Sure, rug mirrors can just be ended by "waste your trop, resolve surgical targeting it", but for most decks in legacy, the mana bases are solid enough to sustain having one dual extirpated, it really takes stripping two out of the two or three duals they run to really hurt them. Consider a typical BUG mmana base--8-10 fetches, 3-4 useas, 3-4 trops, 0-2 bayou, 0-1 creeping tarpit, 0/4 wastelands depending on archetype, 0-4 basics depending on archetype. If it's a bug delver base, sure, they don't have basics, but good luck resolving multiple waste + surgical/extirpate pairings without dieing to the delver and goyf beats first. If they're more of a control build, after the first mainboard extirpate effect you better believe they'll be fetching basics, and you won't have the ability to punish them for it, while they're almost certainly armed to beat your threats mainboard as TNN and Snappy are so common in the format. I feel like this sort of strategy, while cute and powerful in its own way, is not well equipped against the format at large since you're essentially attacking on both a discard axis (hand control) and a tempo axis (available mana/land drops), without delver to take advantage of the tempo axis, or a specific trump to take advantage of topdecking mode (sensei's divining top, some kind of recursive threat, actual win-the-game planeswalkers), I feel like you're going to have to get super lucky to pressure your opponent just enough on both directions to take the game, and that feels like it requires too much luck even with legacy-tier consistency.

[Nation Prophetic]

It sounds like the wasterpate play taken to an entire deck. Sure, rug mirrors can just be ended by "waste your trop, resolve surgical targeting it", but for most decks in legacy, the mana bases are solid enough to sustain having one dual extirpated, it really takes stripping two out of the two or three duals they run to really hurt them. Consider a typical BUG mmana base--8-10 fetches, 3-4 useas, 3-4 trops, 0-2 bayou, 0-1 creeping tarpit, 0/4 wastelands depending on archetype, 0-4 basics depending on archetype. If it's a bug delver base, sure, they don't have basics, but good luck resolving multiple waste + surgical/extirpate pairings without dieing to the delver and goyf beats first. If they're more of a control build, after the first mainboard extirpate effect you better believe they'll be fetching basics, and you won't have the ability to punish them for it, while they're almost certainly armed to beat your threats mainboard as TNN and Snappy are so common in the format. I feel like this sort of strategy, while cute and powerful in its own way, is not well equipped against the format at large since you're essentially attacking on both a discard axis (hand control) and a tempo axis (available mana/land drops), without delver to take advantage of the tempo axis, or a specific trump to take advantage of topdecking mode (sensei's divining top, some kind of recursive threat, actual win-the-game planeswalkers), I feel like you're going to have to get super lucky to pressure your opponent just enough on both directions to take the game, and that feels like it requires too much luck even with legacy-tier consistency.

I usually end up using Phantasmal image to copy off one of their beaters or DRS and end up trading the block with them before I extract the threat I copied. It's by far the most versatile card in the entire deck. Wins games by itself alot of the time just by copying truename and in conjunction with devestation tide, it really puts whoever sits across from me on the fence about what to play knowing I can drop something to copy their floppy immediately after.

I've found that the land destruction aspect of the deck can work either extremely well or not at all against certain matchups. Ultimately, it really comes down to how I chose to pilot the deck. If I go in that direction, I can usually inhibit most of their base enough in conjunction with the discards and the extractions to deplete their resources to a point where it's extremely difficult to mount a counter-offensive. But that just doesn't work against a deck that runs alot of basics. Fortunately, after the first extraction/extripate, I know exactly what I'm matched against and can react accordingly and position myself in the best way to disassemble them.

Most of the time, I actually go after the fetches instead of the duals before anything else. It happens where that's usually the first thing to hit the yard with brainstorm and I can then cut out half of that interaction before anything else has a chance to interfere. Depending on what I see after that first removal, I condition my stuff to their deck's style from then on.

You say that there are plenty of answers to the threats I'm presenting, with true-name and snapcaster and delver being prevalent. Is there some other sort of threat that is more pertinent with this set-up that I should be running that would make more sense? I tried the build with baleful strix in true-names spot and DRS taking up phantasmal images... Even gave bitterblossom a try for consistent dude-spawning. Nothing came out as effective or as versatile as image and true-name. Do you have any suggestions for what I should be running in their place if they don't fit the bill?

Also, I have found that while the average person is well equipped to deal with the threats I put on the board, more often than not, they can't deal with the fact that after they use their removal to get my guys out of there, I remove their removal and can recur the threat so long as it wasn't exiled. Noxious revival is a hell of a thing in this deck. Gives me consistency with the threats I can put out and allows me to abuse devestation over and over again. I also find that continuously bouncing their threats offers more than just the aggravation of having to recast them. It clogs their mana and forces them to dial back their agressiveness. For a long time I ran Vanishment in the deck with the tide just to make it all the more stall oriented. Only dropped it really to make the deck more fluid and less reliant on the miracle mechanic and for the fact that noxious revival can acomplish the exact same thing by putting a useless card to the top of my oponents deck in a pinch.

I fielded the deck against quite a few hard matchups last night at my local shop. I'll post results later today probably.

[pfiremc13]

This deck looks really interesting and really hard to evaluate without testing it! What's your latest/suggested list?

[Nation Prophetic]

This deck looks really interesting and really hard to evaluate without testing it! What's your latest/suggested list?

My current list is largely the same. Playtesting baleful strix and fow and I'm probably going to drop misty rainforest for polluted delta and try out wasteland over ghost quarter to see which I prefer.

Went 4-1 against A field with elves, burn, ANT, miracles and only lost to some sort of heavy aggro zoo variant at the local tournament the other day. Ghost quarter was the star of the show and netted me some serious disruption along with Tide. Still working out what I should sideboard as nothing really popped out at me as being any better or worse against any of those decks... Every match ended with a scoop after I melon balled their decks threats beyond any reasonable recovery.

I find that most Legacy players are quick on the counter to true-name and snapcaster and that usually opens them up for the extraction of their counters and really helps me along alot towards resolving a phantasmal image copy of either one of their threats or delver. I always take a mental note of what they're running and in what sort of numbers they're operating their countersuite so I know my odds per draw that they drew into something that might stop me. The deck runs very, very smooth right now minus the occasional hiccup from burn decks if you're too crazy with the phyrexian mana... But honestly, if you clear out enough of their stuff you have very little to worry about.

[Nation Prophetic]

Played a lot this weekend with a buddy of mine who runs elves exclusively. A very competitive list. Solid deck that brings him lots of wins. Same dude I played last weekend at the local tourney. I came to some conclusions.

1. Barring some terrible hands, this deck will win constantly against decks that don't incorperate a 3 deep layer of counters and run 4-ofs non redundant threats. I pulled 8 sets in a row against this elf deck with little to no trouble. Burn is largely the same deal.

2. It's effectiveness is largely tied to your knowledge of the interactions between your oponents cards. You need to know what deck you're playing, what pieces are most important to remove, what their manabase is and how best to disupt it.

3. Playtesting it, goldfishing, or otherwise trying to test out hands without someone sitting across from you is practically meaningless for this deck. It CANNOT operate without being reactive. There is no perfect storm hand and there is no ultimate setup that works best. It is purely catered by the operator to the opponent you're facing. Decks that do little and play small will probably win. D&T comes to mind, as I've yet to play anyone in my local meta with that deck I can't say positively, but I know they don't run primarily in 4's and are heavy on the disruption side.

4. This deck can play from its back with zero mana. Thanks to the phyrexian mana, you don't have to dump non-land hands when you have an otherwise good hand. Keep hands with multiple removal options. Creatures are secondary to your removal options and unlike most any deck you will play, in this deck you actually want them to counter your spells. Give them things to bait the counters.

5. True-name is a killer for multiple reasons, but the main reason is because by the time you're spun into 3 turns to drop him, there should be little in the way of options for your opponent to clear him from the field. One of the fun things I've been doing lately is cherry picking the things from my oponents deck that can threaten a resolved true-name and removing those things before dropping him. He's arguably the best possible target for Phantasmal image beyond your opponents own creatures.

6. Phantasmal image is the best utility card in the deck. Again, this goes hand in hand with what I said earlier about the deck being tunable to every opponent. The image can become anything on either side of the field. It's a constant threat at every level of play throughout the match thanks in no small part to its reusability via devastation tide.

7. The sideboard. Or lack of it... Needs to get worked on. I know there are matchups that will give this deck a hard time. Could really use some help in this department from people with a mite more experience than me.

[Nation Prophetic]

What are everyones thoughts on possibly running Liliana in the place of True-Name?

[pfiremc13]

True-name seems better; liliana is ok but they won't usually ditch things that you want to extract.

[Nation Prophetic]

True-name seems better; liliana is ok but they won't usually ditch things that you want to extract.

I agree. Mostly just trying to make room for her in some deck. Probably wouldn't run her outside of something pure black with dark ritual.

I'm messing around with a couple of ideas at the moment for the slots taken up by true-name and delver.

Looking at Ashiok or Liliana for planeswalkers that might take true-names spot. Gives me the option of taking more things from my opponents deck, ups the potential creature count and gives me another target to copy with phantasmal image... Of course this comes with the downside of not having true-name to copy unless they're running it also :)

Considering Nightveil Spectre for true-name in conjunction with DRS in delvers spot. Playtests are relatively solid right now, but the manabase feels too small to reliably cast things removed with nightveil... Might need to bump that up to take full advantage of the card. Best playtest feels like Ashiok weirdly... In spite of the fact that she exiles the top three, thus making it impossible for me to extract them. Never the less, she adds a body to the field on a clock that can seriously disrupt...

Any suggestions in the 3 slot and the delver slot that might work?

[joretapo]

Have you considered death's shadow as a threat?

[Nation Prophetic]

Have you considered death's shadow as a threat?

Not at all. I don't see that cards correlation in the deck other than with all the phyrexian mana I spend from time to time... Where's the fit as you see it?

[Freggle]

Smallpox seems like it fits in your game plan, and can set-up some juicy yards, and it one good card to boot. Snapping back Smallpox just seems fun. …for you.

I like that Devastation Tide can get you out of binds that would normally break you i.e. chalice on 1.

Aside from Smallpox if tons of dudes are giving you issues (your Zoo MU), I wonder if there is any merit in using Tragic Slip in your sideboard, or the lesser known Fade Away.

Fade Away is a little costly, but is surprisingly effective especially if you are on the mana denial plan.

[Nation Prophetic]

Smallpox seems like it fits in your game plan, and can set-up some juicy yards, and it one good card to boot. Snapping back Smallpox just seems fun. …for you.

I like that Devastation Tide can get you out of binds that would normally break you i.e. chalice on 1.

Aside from Smallpox if tons of dudes are giving you issues (your Zoo MU), I wonder if there is any merit in using Tragic Slip in your sideboard, or the lesser known Fade Away.

Fade Away is a little costly, but is surprisingly effective especially if you are on the mana denial plan.

I tried out smallpox in the spot currently occupied by cabal therapy once upon a december and found it to be extremely powerful, but it utterly crippled me probably half of the time. The deck runs so light on mana and creatures as it stands that I would lose whatever limited field presence and manabase I'd built up after a probable tidedrop. I tend to not have alot of creatures on my side of the field at any given moment and without the creatures available in my hand to reabuse their effects, their usefulness goes in the toilet very quickly.

Maybe if I pumped up the manabase and gave it some ramping capability I'd have something to fall back on when I inevitably smallpox myself into a corner with my opponent...

Perhaps if I made room for some of the mana denial aspect of smallpox in some capacity that doesn't damage me quite so much... Sinkhole perhaps? That'd be quite the card to recur with snapcaster I'd imagine.

I dig fade away bigtime. Once upon a time, I ran damnation in 4's to great effect in the slot devastation tide currently holds... For now, cabal therapy in conjunction with the tide and noxious revival gives me plenty of field control and doesn't destroy my own creatures in the process, which is key to maintaining momentum with this deck.

I feel like Tragic slip, while giving me a spot answer to individual creatures would be a mite too one dimensional to really thrive in this deck. As you can probably see, most every card in this deck has multiple potential interactions with the other cards to create momentum through the internal synergy of their workings... Hence why I'm looking for things that might replace true-name and delver with something a bit more versatile and utilitarian.

Had a few games the other night against that very same zoo deck player and did much better against him after I altered my play a little bit. Went for tide plays and recurring tide and cabal to clear out his dudes first and then ghost quartered his duals which slowed the game down to a snails pace before I finally drew into a true-name. He was running 2's of alot of his guys, severely limiting my extractions effectiveness... But tide came through bigtime in the end. I played it no less than 6 times in one game.

[Freggle]

I tried out smallpox in the spot currently occupied by cabal therapy once upon a december and found it to be extremely powerful, but it utterly crippled me probably half of the time. The deck runs so light on mana and creatures as it stands that I would lose whatever limited field presence and manabase I'd built up after a probable tidedrop. I tend to not have alot of creatures on my side of the field at any given moment and without the creatures available in my hand to reabuse their effects, their usefulness goes in the toilet very quickly.

Maybe if I pumped up the manabase and gave it some ramping capability I'd have something to fall back on when I inevitably smallpox myself into a corner with my opponent...

Perhaps if I made room for some of the mana denial aspect of smallpox in some capacity that doesn't damage me quite so much... Sinkhole perhaps? That'd be quite the card to recur with snapcaster I'd imagine.

I dig fade away bigtime. Once upon a time, I ran damnation in 4's to great effect in the slot devastation tide currently holds... For now, cabal therapy in conjunction with the tide and noxious revival gives me plenty of field control and doesn't destroy my own creatures in the process, which is key to maintaining momentum with this deck.

I feel like Tragic slip, while giving me a spot answer to individual creatures would be a mite too one dimensional to really thrive in this deck. As you can probably see, most every card in this deck has multiple potential interactions with the other cards to create momentum through the internal synergy of their workings... Hence why I'm looking for things that might replace true-name and delver with something a bit more versatile and utilitarian.

Had a few games the other night against that very same zoo deck player and did much better against him after I altered my play a little bit. Went for tide plays and recurring tide and cabal to clear out his dudes first and then ghost quartered his duals which slowed the game down to a snails pace before I finally drew into a true-name. He was running 2's of alot of his guys, severely limiting my extractions effectiveness... But tide came through bigtime in the end. I played it no less than 6 times in one game.

Frankly, I have not played this list, but I have played lists that either focus on Surgical / Extirpate or LD. 18 lands is light especially for Smallpox.

Below are two variations of the list that templates different things you could test. One explores the Smallpox plan and brings in the utilitarian creature Bloodghast to support Smallpoxs from either the hand or the board and recur from the yard. Bloodghast also works well with Cabal Therapy. I swapped Noxious Revival with Crucible to help fuel Ghost Quarter lock and help recur lands from Smallpox and trigger landfalls for Bloodghast.

The other list explores the use of Death's Shadow as a finisher. Since you are already running shock lands and fetches with phyrexian mana you can get your life to under 12 pretty easily. This can make for a very large 1 mana dork. I paired this with Lim-Dul's Vault for 2 reasons. It can help set-up timely Devastation Tides and since it's instant speed it can drop your life to 1 out of nowhere to kill out of nowhere with Death's Shadow after blocks.

If you like Fade Away I think it would be better in the board of the Smallpox / Bloodghast version

Bloodghast Smallpox Crucible version
Creatures:16

3 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Bloodghast

Spells:26

3 Smallpox
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Devastation Tide

Lands:21

1 Island
6 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Watery Grave
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Death’s Shadow Devastation Tide Version

Creatures:14

3 Delver of Secrets
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Death’s Shadow

Spells:27

3 Lim-Dul’s Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Extirpate
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Noxious Revival
3 Devastation Tide

Lands:19

1 Swamp
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Watery Grave
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Not sure if I made the right cuts, but I thought I would provide lists to give you an idea how those ideas might play out.

[Nation Prophetic]

Frankly, I have not played this list, but I have played lists that either focus on Surgical / Extirpate or LD. 18 lands is light especially for Smallpox.

Below are two variations of the list that templates different things you could test. One explores the Smallpox plan and brings in the utilitarian creature Bloodghast to support Smallpoxs from either the hand or the board and recur from the yard. Bloodghast also works well with Cabal Therapy. I swapped Noxious Revival with Crucible to help fuel Ghost Quarter lock and help recur lands from Smallpox and trigger landfalls for Bloodghast.

The other list explores the use of Death's Shadow as a finisher. Since you are already running shock lands and fetches with phyrexian mana you can get your life to under 12 pretty easily. This can make for a very large 1 mana dork. I paired this with Lim-Dul's Vault for 2 reasons. It can help set-up timely Devastation Tides and since it's instant speed it can drop your life to 1 out of nowhere to kill out of nowhere with Death's Shadow after blocks.

If you like Fade Away I think it would be better in the board of the Smallpox / Bloodghast version

Bloodghast Smallpox Crucible version
Creatures:16

3 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Bloodghast

Spells:26

3 Smallpox
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Extirpate
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Devastation Tide

Lands:21

1 Island
6 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Watery Grave
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Death’s Shadow Devastation Tide Version

Creatures:14

3 Delver of Secrets
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Death’s Shadow

Spells:27

3 Lim-Dul’s Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Extirpate
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Noxious Revival
3 Devastation Tide

Lands:19

1 Swamp
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Watery Grave
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Creeping Tar Pit

Not sure if I made the right cuts, but I thought I would provide lists to give you an idea how those ideas might play out.

Huh, never thought of using bloodghast in conjunction with pox in this list. I actually run that setup out of a "fun" black deck I kitchen table from time to time... Oddly enough I have a very similar deck with death's shadow, a ton of pain Lands, Phyrexian Dreadnought and fling along with lim dul and miracles that I've been working on. Never occurred to me to bring the shadow here in this capacity, but I'll definitely test both lists. I prefer the bloodghast inclusion and smallpox certainly if nothing else for the familiarity of that set up.

Love crucible for ghost quarter. Most of the time I Noxious Revival the quarter to lock out a mana-reliant opponent, but I can certainly see the utility of crucible in this build. I find most of the time, Noxious is far more useful as a catchall to abuse the weaknesses of a particular deck however and I'll probably try to find a way to fit it in that build in some capacity.

I'd love to hear your thoughts if you get the chance to play test the current build at 4 Noxious, 3 probes and 3 tides. I'm getting the most consistency out of that set up currently, but I'm still looking at Delver long and hard for a replacement. In spite of hitting his transformation t2 alot of the time. I can't help but think I'm missing something that could fill that one drop spot a little better outside of drs who I've tested to high hell and can't fit it correctly in this build. Maybe I'm asking too much of the current crop of cards available? I dunno. If you get the chance to run it through some hands let me know. My daily competition is a meta elf deck that's an exact copy of that build that recently took first in St Louis including the board and I regularly shut it down pre and post board. But it's obviously just kitchen table play and local tournaments so who knows how good it will actually be.

Thanks for all the help with the builds. I'm gonna load up that bloodghast setup now.

[Nation Prophetic]

Turns out the Bloodghast setup is an excellent secondary option to flip around the deck on game two... It also opened the door to the latest add that I've made.

Quicken. (anyone know how to link this to gatherer?)

Jiminey Christmas... The plays this card allows in this deck are just insane. Instant speed Cabal therapy on my opponents turn on a flashback if need be for a single blue? Broke as a joke. Dropping Devastation Tide for it's miracle cost on their turn when their field is getting too full and they're coming in for the kill is hilarious. The interactions between this and Noxious Revival are so deep and twisted... It's downright dizzying in the midst of play how many spells get dropped to interfere with the other guys hand.

[Freggle]

Turns out the Bloodghast setup is an excellent secondary option to flip around the deck on game two... It also opened the door to the latest add that I've made.

Quicken. (anyone know how to link this to gatherer?)

Jiminey Christmas... The plays this card allows in this deck are just insane. Instant speed Cabal therapy on my opponents turn on a flashback if need be for a single blue? Broke as a joke. Dropping Devastation Tide for it's miracle cost on their turn when their field is getting too full and they're coming in for the kill is hilarious. The interactions between this and Noxious Revival are so deep and twisted... It's downright dizzying in the midst of play how many spells get dropped to interfere with the other guys hand.

Sweet. Still have not had the opportunity to try this list, but I intend to. To link a card you card name[/cardz] replacing the z with an s in /cards. Like [cards]Quicken. If you hit reply to this post you will see it in the copied text as well.

[pfiremc13]

This seems threat-light with the removal of TNN. If you want your threats to have value, maybe vendilion clique or dark confidant?

[Nation Prophetic]

This seems threat-light with the removal of TNN. If you want your threats to have value, maybe vendilion clique or dark confidant?
Tried clique and Bob... Both taxed my life too low in a deck that already has the tendency to burn itself to death. I haven't noticed True-Name missing all that much in playing the current list with Phantasmal Image copying enemy threats and Snapcaster. The deck wins in a very long, drawn out way. Cutting the opponent off from their weapons and killing them with small time hitters over the course of the game.

[Nation Prophetic]

Sweet. Still have not had the opportunity to try this list, but I intend to. To link a card you card name[/cardz] replacing the z with an s in /cards. Like [cards]Quicken. If you hit reply to this post you will see it in the copied text as well.
I really appreciate the input with bloodghast and death's shadow. I couldn't for the life of me find a place for death's shadow that made sense in this deck other than as a late game counter draw or spot destruction draw. My problem is that usually by the time the shadow is really effective, I've transitioned to mopping up the last of their threats and recurring removal... I definitely see its value as a damage dealer, but for that slot, I can't see its value overcoming that of Delver.

[pfiremc13]

Ok, makes sense.

By the way, the are only 14 cards in the sideboard. What would you add for the 15th?

[Nation Prophetic]

Ok, makes sense.

By the way, the are only 14 cards in the sideboard. What would you add for the 15th?

Probably a 3rd crucible for now.

[Nation Prophetic]

Holy crap Quicken.

Am I missing something here? Why isn't this card being ran in anything that can support it? With cabal therapy and the miracles and any sort of top deck control it's completely overpowered. Went 6-0 against my favorite elf player last night who no longer wishes to play against this deck in any capacity. The loss of true-name doesn't hurt one bit in exchange for the brutalizing it doles out in droves to an opponents hand. Also found a fun secondary use for noxious revival in topdecking useless cards on an opponents deck to dead-draw them, and in knowing what card is then in their hand, cabal that card and learn everything else that's in their hand if you don't already know.

[pfiremc13]

Sensei's divining top is used for miracles on the opponent's turn, and instant-speed therapy seems good but most therapy is good but not worth the deck space (I think). Most therapy deck don't play blue anyway.

I'm glad it's working out for you. This deck is particular has a lot of sorcerers that want to be instants.

[Nation Prophetic]

Sensei's divining top is used for miracles on the opponent's turn, and instant-speed therapy seems good but most therapy is good but not worth the deck space (I think). Most therapy deck don't play blue anyway.

I'm glad it's working out for you. This deck is particular has a lot of sorcerers that want to be instants.

I was actually thinking I might need to add more sorceries just to take full advantage of quicken.

[thefreakaccident]

Quicken doomsday was a mythological play back in the day that people had wet dreams about... That's all the card has ever been though: Wishful thinking. There is a reason people do not play it.

[Nation Prophetic]

Quicken doomsday was a mythological play back in the day that people had wet dreams about... That's all the card has ever been though: Wishful thinking. There is a reason people do not play it.

I can appreciate that. I would say that the mana cost is quite a bit lighter in this setup than it would be in conjunction with a card like doomsday. Paying a maximum of 3 for the tide to go off and ideally 1 blue for a cabal therapy or worst case scenario, 2 on your opponents turn is hardly heavy. Especially with snapcaster in a comperable role giving the recurrance of cards to every deck he lives in for what essentially ammounts to 3 mana with no card draw inherent.

[pfiremc13]

Quicken doomsday was a mythological play back in the day that people had wet dreams about... That's all the card has ever been though: Wishful thinking. There is a reason people do not play it.

Until you test that card in this deck, I suggest you defer to the person with actual experience with it.

[thefreakaccident]

I wish there was a guy saying something like this for me for every deck i've put out there in the past. I'm pretty sure we're supposed to be a little bit more critical than that in a forum such as this, where we're trying to create the best decks possible.

[apple713]

i love the concept of the deck but its composition is poor. you have no way to get their cards into the graveyard. no discard other than therapy. No answers to threats that make it into play. there is no combination of plays that gives you a clear advantage. the deck you are presenting seems to be below tier 2. of course, some games you are going to win just because opponent can't deal with delver but that doesn't reflect you deck being successful or well built.

i suggest defining a more clear strategy, ie. i want to surgical all of opponents removal so they can't interact with my creatures; i want to discard all of their threats and then remove them from the game. Many decks in legacy have very few actual threats, which would make that strategy viable. I haven't been successful in developing a set of 60 that accomplishes it. I would suggest running more discard / counter magic / removal. If you discard it before they play it, or counter it when they do play it, then its in the grave and ready to be rfg. removal accomplished a similar task. Rug runs maybe 12 threats? goyf, delver, mongoose.... thats easy to combat. decks like sneak and show that depend on combo pieces run even fewer threats making your strategy somewhat easier. head back to the drawing board and come up with a new list....

[Nation Prophetic]

Until you test that card in this deck, I suggest you defer to the person with actual experience with it.
Were you suggesting that I use doomsday in this deck? It seems to me that you were offering an example of what quicken used to be envisioned as being useful in conjunction with. I don't dispute your experience with the card in any way, only that in terms of the cost of the operation of the principal cards (Devastation Tide, Cabal Therapy, quicken) the maximum payment is 3 mana, whereas with your example (doomsday, quicken) it's 4 Mana.

Either way, I appreciate the suggestion and I can certainly see how and why quicken isn't up to snuff in most circumstances with most legacy decks. Perhaps you have an alternative recommendation to offer that would fulfill a similar role for a similar cost?

[thefreakaccident]

I deleted a shitton b/c apple reposted pretty much all my comments. Good on ya mate!


Edit: Phantasmal image can in some circumstances even up the board, but not after you've gotten behind. Delver opener is at its' best with free countermagic to keep it alive, but that's well established.


I played a variant of this a ways back with sinkhole/waste/stifle combo to go with the usual threats... sometimes it seemed amazing, sometimes it durdled and did nothing while getting slapped in the face with random critters, and sometimes it did exactly what it was supposed to do, but it was still not enough to catch up to my opponent laying his delver first. In all honesty, I think my list was more streamlined and efficient as well, and it still didn't work. The problem is creatures in general, because extirpate/surgical/LD do nothing against resolved threats.

I will post my list later when i'm feeling better, and we can discuss pros/cons of the two lists... Maybe there is a variation that works, I didn't find it before, but i'm willing to keep testing it b/c the concept makes me happy.

I always loved LD, and I would love to make a deck that made it work again.

[pfiremc13]

i love the concept of the deck but its composition is poor. you have no way to get their cards into the graveyard. no discard other than therapy. No answers to threats that make it into play. there is no combination of plays that gives you a clear advantage. the deck you are presenting seems to be below tier 2. of course, some games you are going to win just because opponent can't deal with delver but that doesn't reflect you deck being successful or well built.

i suggest defining a more clear strategy, ie. i want to surgical all of opponents removal so they can't interact with my creatures; i want to discard all of their threats and then remove them from the game. Many decks in legacy have very few actual threats, which would make that strategy viable. I haven't been successful in developing a set of 60 that accomplishes it. I would suggest running more discard / counter magic / removal. If you discard it before they play it, or counter it when they do play it, then its in the grave and ready to be rfg. removal accomplished a similar task. Rug runs maybe 12 threats? goyf, delver, mongoose.... thats easy to combat. decks like sneak and show that depend on combo pieces run even fewer threats making your strategy somewhat easier. head back to the drawing board and come up with a new list....

Again, you have not tested this deck. You cannot say that this is below tier 2 when it has been tested against and beaten many 1.5 tier decks. It's ok to give suggestions, but that suggestion is unreasonable given the evidence in favor this deck.

Nation Prophetic, I think you should give descriptions on how your games go to give people a better idea of how this deck actually works--it is unclear to people who haven't played it before (including me). Probably put it in the op.

[apple713]

Again, you have not tested this deck. You cannot say that this is below tier 2 when it has been tested against and beaten many 1.5 tier decks. It's ok to give suggestions, but that suggestion is unreasonable given the evidence in favor this deck.

Nation Prophetic, I think you should give descriptions on how your games go to give people a better idea of how this deck actually works--it is unclear to people who haven't played it before (including me). Probably put it in the op.

similarly like the freak accident




I played a variant of this a ways back with sinkhole/waste/stifle combo to go with the usual threats... sometimes it seemed amazing, sometimes it durdled and did nothing while getting slapped in the face with random critters, and sometimes it did exactly what it was supposed to do, but it was still not enough to catch up to my opponent laying his delver first. In all honesty, I think my list was more streamlined and efficient as well, and it still didn't work. The problem is creatures in general, because extirpate/surgical/LD do nothing against resolved threats.

I have played a deck similar to the OP. I could probably replicate the above mentioned list with out ever seeing it.

I can beat many tier 1.5 decks with a pre con but that doesn't really determine that the pre con is above tier 2.

Without testing the deck i have enough experience to know the format. I have built decks similarly and run into the same issue time and time again. I could submit maybe 50 decks that i've drafted in cockatrice (what I use to deck build) that have failed because of problems similar to the ones i believe this deck faces. its easy to see that creatures present an issue for any deck that a) can't win immediately at any time (such as a combo deck) and b) that is slow to win and fails to establish a strong board presence

[Nation Prophetic]

Again, you have not tested this deck. You cannot say that this is below tier 2 when it has been tested against and beaten many 1.5 tier decks. It's ok to give suggestions, but that suggestion is unreasonable given the evidence in favor this deck.

Nation Prophetic, I think you should give descriptions on how your games go to give people a better idea of how this deck actually works--it is unclear to people who haven't played it before (including me). Probably put it in the op.

I was already working on getting a matchup list and play by play together against the upper echelon decks I've faced. I'll try to get it all finished tonight.

[pfiremc13]

similarly like the freak accident



I have played a deck similar to the OP. I could probably replicate the above mentioned list with out ever seeing it.

I can beat many tier 1.5 decks with a pre con but that doesn't really determine that the pre con is above tier 2.

Without testing the deck i have enough experience to know the format. I have built decks similarly and run into the same issue time and time again. I could submit maybe 50 decks that i've drafted in cockatrice (what I use to deck build) that have failed because of problems similar to the ones i believe this deck faces. its easy to see that creatures present an issue for any deck that a) can't win immediately at any time (such as a combo deck) and b) that is slow to win and fails to establish a strong board presence

Though you may have played a similar deck, you haven't played the same deck. You have no way of assuming this deck has problems with creatures. Nation has tested it a lot, and if he was having problems with creatures, he would have said so.

Beating tier 1.5 decks may not prove a deck is above tier 2, but it certainly helps its case.

[Darkenslight]

I was already working on getting a matchup list and play by play together against the upper echelon decks I've faced. I'll try to get it all finished tonight.

If you're doing this on MTGO, you might be able to link us to the replays for the matches. In addition, Most of the DTB/Established decks play around 20 lands with a mere 0-3 basics, which makes the potential for mana screw in conjunction with Waste/GQ somewhat relevant (especially against the Delver decks and Elves! as you can remove one color completely from Delver-type decks and Cradles from Elves, should you get the opportunity.

Something I would consider playing is something like Diabolic Edict to get rid of Flying Spaghetti Monsters and fast snake-eaters.

[Nation Prophetic]

In other news, looking at the possiblility of a need for spot removal of threatening creatures beyond tide and in keeping with the return to hand/abuse cabal setup I'm currently operating, what are everyones thoughts on Curfew?

I personally find that Devastation Tide takes care of any threats that might be on the board and as I haven't seen alot of creature-heavy meta floating around outside of elves in my area I haven't found the need to expand my creature removal beyond the miracle... But I recognize that my local gig is not the same as everywhere else. I'd be happy to explore other options that might make the deck more versatile.

Curfew can be used to return my Snapcaster and my Phantasmal to reuse their effects/copy a new threat that appears...

Also doesn't target, thus circumventing Phantasmals self-destructive tendancies and any of those other buggers my opponent may be running who would be otherwise protected from destruction. Seems like a decent enough card to give a shot at.

@Apple:

Thanks for all the input brother. I truly appreciate and value your experience and effort in aiming me true. Some thoughts in my defense of this particular deck if I may be so bold as to suggest perhaps some differences not in the destination our respective journeys with decks such as these... But rather the road taken and the way we go about taking that road.

I have found that this decks lack of specific win condition and flexibility of responses to any given deck is precisely one of the things that gives it the maneuverability to be piloted through some of the more focused decks in the format. As someone who has apparently fielded multiple similar decks to this one I'm sure you then know that the usefulness of a deck that removes key threats in an opponents arsenal is directly related to ones knowledge of the workings of the deck they're facing at that moment and the tools at their disposal to excise those threats from the body of their opponents card pool.

For example, someone who knows the workings of an engine can disable it by removing the primary components with something as small as a pair of pliers or a wrench. Alternatively, someone with a bazooka can disable the very same engine with little more than the pull of a trigger and some aim. Both things accomplish the very same end result with very different tools and time frames. This deck was not built to be a bazooka. It was not built with an idea for winning in mind via explosiveness, or a set combination of cards to deploy, or a killer drop that ends the game in an instant. It was designed to be a toolbox. A collection of wrenches and pliers to tweak and twist and to be thrown into the engine of an opponents deck to disable it. Winning is a side effect of your opponent no longer having the means to run his engine.

I built this deck (as you so aptly pointed out in your assesment of my lack of options for dealing with resolved threats) to react to played cards. To draw out an opponents counters and creature destruction and draw power by baiting them with my own threats and taking those things away from them. For a long while I ran Glimpse The Unthinkable as a preemptive strike on the heart of their library and that worked fine some of the time... But it was useless to me on a dead-draw and did nothing to threats in their hand. I migrated to Cabal Therapy after a brief and disasterous flirtation with Thoughtseize that was just too damaging to me to be abusable with Snapcaster... And quickly realized Cabal was infinitely more effective at both drawing out my opponents counters and controlling their hand enough to feed my extraction effects.

All things aside however, there are certainly occasions where I have found any number of things wrong with my process of disassembling an opponents deck. Against decks that don't run 4of's and run multiple threats that serve the same basic function I have extreme difficulty securing victories. Decks that operate with a multitude of creatures are difficult to win against when I don't have tide immediately to respond to them. Burn decks I've had a string of excellent luck against, but for all intents and purposes can easily take advantage of my considerable self-destructive life point payment. Mentally, the deck itself is astonishingly fatiguing to play with and doesn't behave quite like any other deck I've ever tried... It's exhausting. By its very nature I beleive it lends itself to more analytical minds than mine. It's one of the things that drew me to the idea of this deck and keeps drawing me back. The challenge it represents to me keeps me tinkering with the tools... Hopefully there are those among the throes of wishfull hopefulls here who see what I see in the idea.

[Nation Prophetic]

If you're doing this on MTGO, you might be able to link us to the replays for the matches. In addition, Most of the DTB/Established decks play around 20 lands with a mere 0-3 basics, which makes the potential for mana screw in conjunction with Waste/GQ somewhat relevant (especially against the Delver decks and Elves! as you can remove one color completely from Delver-type decks and Cradles from Elves, should you get the opportunity.

Something I would consider playing is something like Diabolic Edict to get rid of Flying Spaghetti Monsters and fast snake-eaters.

That's exactly what I've found in my plays against elves! Most of my recent excitement has been over the fact that this deck does so consistently well against the current meta elf loadouts. Only played a few games against Delver decks but I haven't noticed anything particulary difficult about that matchup. I playtest on the android app decked builder usually but the bulk of my playtime comes from tabletop with some local players and the my local comicshop.

I've never actually looked into mtgo. Can you buy individual cards and deckbuild and all that jazz?

Hmmm. Diabolic edict, or Curfew? I ran Vanishment for a while in a previous build too. Maybe that'd be worth giving another shot to?

[apple713]

@ nation prophetic

I think that to make your OP strong you should include lines of play and reasons to include the cards you have chosen. This is important because not only will it identify usefulness to other readers and indicate what your intent of that card choice is, but it will also allow you to reflect on whether or not the card contributes significantly enough to the overall goal of the deck. This may be an obvious example but include things like, noxious revival combos well with tide because it's a miracles card. It also allows for multiple uses of a surgical extraction before having to flash it back.

I think that curfew is a good idea. Additionally I think that pithing needle is a better idea. It functions very similarly to surgical but as a permanent instead of instant. It allows you to disable all copies of a card. It hits lands, such as fetch and man lands, but also is an easy way to deal with resolved spells like liliana, birthing pod, sensei's diving top...and so many more.

Maybe my strongest advice would be to just play this in modern. The power level of legacy is likely too strong. Legacy is not a very forgiving format and modern is defiantly easier to deal with. i don't think any of the cards outside cabal therapy and brainstorm are illegal in modern. The decks power level relative to the format would probably be higher in modern even with those exclusions.

[pfiremc13]

In terms of removal, I think devastation tide fills curfew's role well enough. I think diabolic edict would be a good inclusion, or maybe some of the new delve cards would be good. This deck plays a lot of cantrips...Would murderous cut and dead drop be good?

[apple713]

dimir charm actually might fit

[thefreakaccident]

In terms of removal, I think devastation tide fills curfew's role well enough. I think diabolic edict would be a good inclusion, or maybe some of the new delve cards would be good. This deck plays a lot of cantrips...Would murderous cut and dead drop be good?

Edict is a meta call. Sure it's good when it resolves (IF it resolves) against decks with 1 threat on board (delver/mongoose), but it is useless against most forms of agro. The delve cards will come online only after a few smacks in the face, minimum 1-2, which can mean anywhere from 1-6 lifepoints lost, which 6 is a pretty big deal, and you'd have a difficult time pulling more than one off in a fast paced game, especially if you are being pressed to do it.

I love curfew, I ran it in faeries, I ran it in goblins... But those are two decks that truly maximize comes into play triggers, and they usually had more threats on the board than their opponents... This deck runs 12 threats, and resetting delver can hurt. I would hate to have my only removal be curfew, my opponent to have two critters and for me to only have one, while also not being able to lay it back onto the table immediately (something that a heavy manabase/vial can solve... which neither really fit here). I don't see curfew working too well here, even in conjunction with snapcaster and manadenial.


Your best option is probably dead weight, does what disfigure does, but sticks. Helps win 'goyf wars' with your phantasm, kills squires and below. It's limited, but probably less limited than the other options, and less painful.. Nobody wants to pay 4 life for a removal spell, nobody wants the opponent to have the option of paying mana to keep the critter alive. If i was stuck on having bounce for my 'removal', i'd use chain of vapor. It can sometimes tempt people into making the wrong decision, and can get multiple things if you happen to have extra lands to play with.

Edit: Never saw dimir charm... It's better than smother, and edict, but runs the same issue of having 2cc, and getting spell pierced all day every day.

[Nation Prophetic]

Edict is a meta call. Sure it's good when it resolves (IF it resolves) against decks with 1 threat on board (delver/mongoose), but it is useless against most forms of agro. The delve cards will come online only after a few smacks in the face, minimum 1-2, which can mean anywhere from 1-6 lifepoints lost, which 6 is a pretty big deal, and you'd have a difficult time pulling more than one off in a fast paced game, especially if you are being pressed to do it.

I love curfew, I ran it in faeries, I ran it in goblins... But those are two decks that truly maximize comes into play triggers, and they usually had more threats on the board than their opponents... This deck runs 12 threats, and resetting delver can hurt. I would hate to have my only removal be curfew, my opponent to have two critters and for me to only have one, while also not being able to lay it back onto the table immediately (something that a heavy manabase/vial can solve... which neither really fit here). I don't see curfew working too well here, even in conjunction with snapcaster and manadenial.


Your best option is probably dead weight, does what disfigure does, but sticks. Helps win 'goyf wars' with your phantasm, kills squires and below. It's limited, but probably less limited than the other options, and less painful.. Nobody wants to pay 4 life for a removal spell, nobody wants the opponent to have the option of paying mana to keep the critter alive. If i was stuck on having bounce for my 'removal', i'd use chain of vapor. It can sometimes tempt people into making the wrong decision, and can get multiple things if you happen to have extra lands to play with.

Edit: Never saw dimir charm... It's better than smother, and edict, but runs the same issue of having 2cc, and getting spell pierced all day every day.

Big fan of Dimir charm, but yeah... Spell pierce bait indeed. Not exactly a bad thing. I want those in the grave anyways, but in my experience people have a tendancy to go after snapcaster with sp more than almost anything else in the deck.

Big fan also of chain of vapor. Love anything that has the option to overplay without paying mana. My only question would be is it strictly better than vanishment? Killing a draw of theirs seems favorable even over potentially copying the bounce to me.

[atosecond]

Does chancellor of the spires have a place in this deck because I think it might.

[apple713]

Does chancellor of the spires have a place in this deck because I think it might.

this card would actually make the deck more realistically viable. For fear of clogging up the deck the op might have been reluctant to include it but I think it has some really good merits. Theoretically it could end the game on opponents upkeep if they are playing combo. it can also cripple their land situation, i.e., if they flip 7 cards and 1 is a creature which you target with surgical, after seeing their hand, if their hand has a non basic land that is also in the grave, you can strip them from that luxury. a good hand can turn terribly bad very fast in a situation like this.

[Nation Prophetic]

this card would actually make the deck more realistically viable. For fear of clogging up the deck the op might have been reluctant to include it but I think it has some really good merits. Theoretically it could end the game on opponents upkeep if they are playing combo. it can also cripple their land situation, i.e., if they flip 7 cards and 1 is a creature which you target with surgical, after seeing their hand, if their hand has a non basic land that is also in the grave, you can strip them from that luxury. a good hand can turn terribly bad very fast in a situation like this.
I had them in one of the earliest builds of this deck. I could never get around the fact that they are unsummonable with the lackluster mana base. You're absolutely correct though. When they were in my opening hand with Surgical it crippled my opponent completely.

If only I had the means to get him on the field somehow. That cost is outrageously high, but most games end up being long anyway so...

Hell, I'll give it a shot.

[Freggle]

Does chancellor of the spires have a place in this deck because I think it might.

In the same vein you may have more success with Archive Trap. Especially since Extirpate and Surgical Extraction cause people to shuffle their Libraries.

Goes well with the Land-Destruction-centric version too. Since it can flip nonbasics with can be removed, and triggers on opponents fetches.

[apple713]

I had them in one of the earliest builds of this deck. I could never get around the fact that they are unsummonable with the lackluster mana base. You're absolutely correct though. When they were in my opening hand with Surgical it crippled my opponent completely.

If only I had the means to get him on the field somehow. That cost is outrageously high, but most games end up being long anyway so...

Hell, I'll give it a shot.

actually the better choice is archive trap . 90% of the time it cost 0, and its 13 cards instead of 7.

also consider

mesmeric orb
sewer nemesis
altar of the brood
chains of mephistopheles

[thefreakaccident]

OMG! I just realized alter of the brood is better than storm for the helm of awakening/double sensei top combo. Sorry, i know this isn't relevant to the deck at hand...

Does the OP really want to focus entirely on mill? Last time I checked, it's the slowest and least reliable way to win the game... especially with eldrazi garbage running around.

[Nation Prophetic]

actually the better choice is archive trap . 90% of the time it cost 0, and its 13 cards instead of 7.

also consider

mesmeric orb
sewer nemesis
altar of the brood
chains of mephistopheles

I have pined over chains of mephistopheles for years. Now they're in the 300 a pop territory and firmly beyond my individual card preferred purchase price. Can't ever find anyone willing to trade them either :/

Archive trap looks amazing... My only wish is that it functioned with Extraction effects, but that's me searching their library and not them. Doesn't work I'd imagine. Either way, I'll playtest a build with this in it and see how it runs.

[atosecond]

actually the better choice is archive trap . 90% of the time it cost 0, and its 13 cards instead of 7.

also consider

mesmeric orb
sewer nemesis
altar of the brood
chains of mephistopheles

The only slight merit to chancellor is it is more difficult to counter which may be relevant once your opponent susses out what you are doing, also better in some fetch light matchups (DnT) etc.

Although I think for the most part they are interchangeable, with archive being better in most situations.

Admittedly not relevant here, but I can't help but look at this deck and think it would be better (relative to other decks) in Modern. Many of the key pieces are still relevant and available there.

[apple713]

I have pined over chains of mephistopheles for years. Now they're in the 300 a pop territory and firmly beyond my individual card preferred purchase price. Can't ever find anyone willing to trade them either :/

Archive trap looks amazing... My only wish is that it functioned with Extraction effects, but that's me searching their library and not them. Doesn't work I'd imagine. Either way, I'll playtest a build with this in it and see how it runs.

i actually just traded away 3 chains for a beta tropical island

[pfiremc13]

I honestly think removal that actually kills stuff is better in this deck. That way you can extract it afterwards. If you're only going to run 1-2, murderous cut doesn't seems like it would get spell pierced that often. If you want more, ghastly demise seems good

[Nation Prophetic]

I honestly think removal that actually kills stuff is better in this deck. That way you can extract it afterwards. If you're only going to run 1-2, murderous cut doesn't seems like it would get spell pierced that often. If you want more, ghastly demise seems good

Ghastly demise... That art is fantastic.

Maybe Damnation? High cost, but damn if it doesn't kill every thing on the board. I ran it before out of the deck in devastation tides place and it worked allright.

[pfiremc13]

That's the thing...you don't really want things that do the same thing as tide. You really want a 1-mana kill spell right now.

[Nation Prophetic]

That's the thing...you don't really want things that do the same thing as tide. You really want a 1-mana kill spell right now.

Still looking into cheap kill spells that might fit the bill. Came across Hedron Crab.

Might fit the bill in giving the deck another body and a continuous source of mill that can also block.

[pfiremc13]

Actually, that's decent. It probably mills something to extract and then gains life by blocking. It's better than any other mill options, at least.

What don't you like about ghastly demise?

[pfiremc13]

Now that I think about it, this deck does have a problem with card advantage...though you can sac crab to therapy.

Do you find you usually have enough creatures to sac to therapy?

Maybe you could go -4 delver, +2 true-name, +1 removal, +1 land. Since this is a control deck, true-name might be a better wincon since it's harder to kill. If you have all the time in the world, does it matter what turn your creatures come down?

[Nation Prophetic]

Actually, that's decent. It probably mills something to extract and then gains life by blocking. It's better than any other mill options, at least.

What don't you like about ghastly demise?

I don't dislike it at all. Playtesting it now.

[Nation Prophetic]

Now that I think about it, this deck does have a problem with card advantage...though you can sac crab to therapy.

Do you find you usually have enough creatures to sac to therapy?

Maybe you could go -4 delver, +2 true-name, +1 removal, +1 land. Since this is a control deck, true-name might be a better wincon since it's harder to kill. If you have all the time in the world, does it matter what turn your creatures come down?

I find that creatures aren't usually a problem and if I really need to get them back after they die I can noxious revival them after using them for therapy. I have found that delver is mostly a very good target for drawing out an opponents kill spells or removal. It's also an early threat that can accelerate the clock against an opponent if need be...

However, I'd probably drop delver for hedron crab and make some cuts elsewhere to refit true-name. Don't know how I'm gonna make those cuts and fit ghastly at the same time, but lets see if I can make it happen.

[pfiremc13]

drawing out an opponents kill spells or removal

Why do you need to do this? I understand you can extract things, but ultimately, what's the point? You really want to protect your phantasmal image? Can't you noxious revival that back anyway? If you ran true-name nemesis, their removal wouldn't stop you from killing them anyway.

[Nation Prophetic]

Why do you need to do this? I understand you can extract things, but ultimately, what's the point? You really want to protect your phantasmal image? Can't you noxious revival that back anyway? If you ran true-name nemesis, their removal wouldn't stop you from killing them anyway.

As I see it, something needs to be alive on my side of the field to do damage enough to eventually kill off whoever I'm against. Of course true-name circumvents the need to eliminate spot destruction almost entirely, but I can't play it till turn 3 at the earliest. I can drop phantasmal turn two and copy a threat on their side to cover me till that happens... Delver has always been more of a stop-gap card to cover me till I can drop the bigger threats or copy theirs. Beleive me, you don't have to sell me on the usefullness of true-name. The best plays out of this deck often came from t3ing a true-name and a t4 phantasmal copy of it. Lately I've been focusing more on the extraction/discard suite and removed true-name to make some room for that stuff... But maybe the deck needs the threat of true-name to really seal the deal after I've removed their ability to stop it? Suppose I'll play the old list and tweak it a little to see if that's mroe efficient.

[pfiremc13]

My point is that it's so much harder to get rid of a true-name than it is a delver. It doesn't really matter that it's 3 mana since this deck intends to play a very long game anyway. If it dies, you can just extract whatever killed it, then see if there are any others in the deck and eventually topdeck another or a noxious revival. However, that does put phantasmal image in an awkward spot, being the only creature that will be targeted by removal. Even so, phantasmal is usually used on defense or to copy a true-name. Test it out, but my suggestion is to cut the delvers and add in 2 true-names. This will also make room for other things.

[pfiremc13]

Thought of another cool play in this deck:

In response to your removal spell, quicken into devastation tide.

[thefreakaccident]

If people keep talking mill, i'm going to want to run jace's phantasm for the lols. He can go in the version with chancellor of the spires lol.

[atosecond]

Thought of another cool play in this deck:

In response to your removal spell, quicken into devastation tide.
Yes, that's why quicken was out into the deck. I believe SDT makes more sense though.

If people keep talking mill, i'm going to want to run jace's phantasm for the lols. He can go in the version with chancellor of the spires lol.
Mill isn't so much a win con as an enabler for surgical/extirpate to allow you to pick away at their win conditions. To be honest, I would be very cautious about bringing in too many mill cards at the risk of diluting the main strategy.

[Barook]

Sword of Body and Mind probably suffers from the high mana requirement and rather meager targets (Image can't be equipped), or am I mistaken? Otherwise, Pro Goyf and Pro TNN seem pretty relevant, you get a chump blocker and mill them for 10.

[pfiremc13]

I like! Sword gives you mill without losing card advantage, and gives you dudes! The problem is finding creatures to equip it to. You are correct that phantasmal can't be equipped.

Quicken is not just for instant-speed tides, it's also for instant-speed therapies and noxious revivals. (Brainstorm can cast instant-speed tides too...) Top is good but doesn't fill the same slot.

[pfiremc13]

Nation prophetic, do you usually find you have enough creatures to sac to therapy?

What do you think about the number of lands in the deck? It's low but you run a million cantrips.

[Nation Prophetic]

Nation prophetic, do you usually find you have enough creatures to sac to therapy?

What do you think about the number of lands in the deck? It's low but you run a million cantrips.

Oddly enough I find myself with too much land most of the time.

[Nation Prophetic]

Nation prophetic, do you usually find you have enough creatures to sac to therapy?

What do you think about the number of lands in the deck? It's low but you run a million cantrips.

I am not usually hurting for Creatures with the 12. With 16 it was better, but really the creatures are mostly secondary enablers of the primary strategy. you're right, with all the cantrips land isn't so much of an issue. It gets no land hands from time to time, but I've found it able to play them relatively consistently with all the Phyrexian mana available.

[pfiremc13]

What do you think about treasure cruise here?

[gusccs]

I am not usually hurting for Creatures with the 12. With 16 it was better, but really the creatures are mostly secondary enablers of the primary strategy. you're right, with all the cantrips land isn't so much of an issue. It gets no land hands from time to time, but I've found it able to play them relatively consistently with all the Phyrexian mana available.

Hi guys

I've been thinking of something similar for a while. Haven't been able to test. The list is:
4 x Death´s Shadow
4 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Tombstalker

4 x Gitaxian Probe
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Thoughtseize
3 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Daze
4 x Surgical Extraction
4 x Extirpate
2 x Dismember
1 x Diabolic Edict
4 x Stifle

4 x Polluted Delta
2 x Watery Grave
2 x Underground Sea
4 x Wasteland
1 x Swamp
2 x Island
2 x Scalding Tarn
1 x Marsh Flats

Sb
2 x Massacre
4 x Force of will
2 x Engineered Plague
2 x Spell Pierce

Still not complete but what do you think?

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I'd call this deck "Snapstraction" and personally I think the coolest way to built it by going creatureless, besides a couple Snapcasters, to maximize Innocent Blood and Toxic Deluge and win in the cruelest way by making your opponent unable to win and eventually win with something like Cursed Scroll or Mishra's Factory beatdown.
I'd throw in something like Crucible/Wasteland loop.

[jhhdk]

Has Archive Trap already been discussed for feeding early Extirpate/Surgical Extraction?
Haunting Echoes probably too costly manawise, but does fit strategy somewhat.

[Keenco]

I've been playing around this deck with the following setup:

Land (19)
1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland

Instant (21)
3x Archive Trap
3x Extirpate
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Force of Will
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm

Creature (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis

Sorcery (6)
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Ponder

Sideboard (15)
3x Disfigure
2x Golgari Charm
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Spell Pierce
1x True-Name Nemesis

Honestly idk if this is the right direction to go as I'm no expert in this game in any way. I'm still playing around with card choices, especially SB.

In early testing, I feel like I can blow up any greedy mana base deck with Archive Trap/Wasteland > Extirpate/Surgical Extraction. UWR delver w/o Tundra is pretty devastating.

Vs Miracle I tend to focus on extracting their win con (Entreat & Jace) and maybe a few of the other key cards. Archive Trap is quite nice when the Miracle player tries to dig for answer with Fetch/Top (Archive Trap in respond to your activation of Top = goodbye miracle trigger card).

I'm having quite an issue with playing against D&T pre-board. Though after SB it seems a bit better as I can remove the extraction pieces (RIP is a real thing) for more creature and removals.

I hope to play a few more other type of decks to see what can be done.

[pfiremc13]

Nation Prophetic, are you still working on this deck? Testing this deck seems to require a lot of dedication, which I don't have the time for, not to mention that I like to switch from deck to deck. However, your good results have me intrigued, and I would like to hear more.