[The State of Legacy] - LIVE Podcast with MattiasNL, Bahra and itsJulian - TONIGHT

[Julian23]

Download Link for the mp3: Click here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nn6gl5dq79e7jpe/State%20of%20Legacy%20Episode%201-%20Metagame%2C%20Miracles%20and%20more.mp3?dl=0). No RSS Feed yet, will follow up for future episodes.

To everyone who missed the show: here's the link to the VOD (http://www.twitch.tv/mattiasnl/c/5058611)
Make sure to tune in next Wednesday, 10th September when we discuss the results of the MOCS Season Champs - the only Legacy PTQ of the year!


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwnaG2HCUAAxH6K.jpg:large

Tonight, we are brining you the first episode of our new LIVE podcast of "The State of Legacy".

We will discuss most recent trends in the metagame with special regards to SCG Invitational as well as MODO Daily Event results.

Your hosts for tonight will be MattiasNL, Bahra and itsJulian. We would be happy to see you guys tune in at http://twitch.tv/mattiasNL at 8pm CEST (GMT+2); for orientation: at the time of writing this post, it's 4:50pm CEST.

See you tonights,

-Julian

[mini1337s]

Hope to listen to this, should be a lot of fun!

[nevilshute]

As I know that I won't be able to listen to this live tonight I'd be very interested in listening to it after the fact. Please tell me this will be recorded and released :smile:

[lordofthepit]

As I know that I won't be able to listen to this live tonight I'd be very interested in listening to it after the fact. Please tell me this will be recorded and released :smile:

+1!

[(nameless one)]

As I know that I won't be able to listen to this live tonight I'd be very interested in listening to it after the fact. Please tell me this will be recorded and released :smile:

This

I'm listening to it right now at work but the mic work is terrible. I can barely hear Julian and Matthias's mic overpowers all

[from Cairo]

It's sounded fine to me. Good broadcast so far!

[Julian23]

Thanks guys! The VOD will be available on Mattias' twitch channel in past broadcasts. If we get around to it, we could also upload it to YouTube.

[danyul]

I missed it but I'll listen to the archived version whenever it pops up.

What were some of the talking points? Perhaps we can discuss them here as well?

[Julian23]

Updated the opening post with a link to the VOD: http://www.twitch.tv/mattiasnl/c/5058611

@Dan: Topic list was:
- Personal Introduction
- SCG Invitational result discussion
- What's winning in Legacy on MODO
- Discussion of Miracles and its positioning in the meta
- How to get into Legacy?
- Which decks should/could see more play?
(- Naughty things)

[danyul]

I'm excited to listen to you gents discuss your naughty things in your naughty European accents.

[Julian23]

It appears Mattias has actually cut the naughty part from the VOD. Better tune in live next time, Dan :tongue:

[danyul]

:cry:

I don't like the taste of this Regret sandwich.

[Barook]

Miracles is about as fun as pulling teeth out to play against.

Banning SDT would most likely kill the deck. I don't think that a Counterbalance ban would have the desired effect, since the main problem is instant speed Super-Wrath-of-Gods for :w:. Forcing Miracles to switch to Supreme Verdict would be an interesting change, since it would allow counterplay like mana denial, Boros Charm, Golgari Charm, etc.

[Bahra]

Miracles is about as fun as pulling teeth out to play against.

Banning SDT would most likely kill the deck. I don't think that a Counterbalance ban would have the desired effect, since the main problem is instant speed Super-Wrath-of-Gods for :w:. Forcing Miracles to switch to Supreme Verdict would be an interesting change, since it would allow counterplay like mana denial, Boros Charm, Golgari Charm, etc.

There's actually a goblin that lets you put creatures from the bottom of your deck into play :P

[twndomn]

"Sensei's Diving Top is over the top...," can you say puns?

Not fun to play against is Not a valid justification to ban something. It's Also not fun to play against a Griselbrand.

It's not Piracy Charm, it's Sapphire Charm.

[JamieW89]

Sweet podcast!

[Lans89]

Yeah it was nice =)! It looks like Miracles is a serieus issue in MTGO atm, but I hope SDT won't get banned!

P.S. Mattias! Why don't you come play some paper magic to keep Legacy alive in the Netherlands ^^? You can always ask to borrow a deck if you don't have any! I could hand you ANT or something for the 11 oktober Legacy event in Amsterdam =)?

[Dzra]

This is Legacy, there's quite a few cards and interactions that are terribly unfun for one or even both players. I don't think that banning stuff for being unfun is the way to approach the format.

[Dosferra]

Great podcast guys, really enjoyed it, hope you'll do it regularly (and frequently).

[Zombie]

Listening to it now, and it's really weird:

"Terminus is so constricting"
"Man, Terminus is no fun to play against"
"1-mana instant Wrath is not something I want to play against"
"Top can be really helpful to a bunch of nonblue decks"
"Why would you play creatures when you could play Terminus"

=> Ban Top???

It's like Survival all over again.
"Man, Vengevival is no fun to play against"
"16 power of hasty beats out of nowhere is not something I want to play against"
"Survival toolbox decks were really fun"
"Why play normal aggro when you can play Vengevival"

=> Ban Survival.

Why the hell ban the fun card that can be used to play fair and fun things and leave the other card alone that is either useless or broken?

[Julian23]

Listening to it now, and it's really weird:

"Terminus is so constricting"
"Man, Terminus is no fun to play against"
"1-mana instant Wrath is not something I want to play against"
"Top can be really helpful to a bunch of nonblue decks"
"Why would you play creatures when you could play Terminus"

=> Ban Top???


I think you didn't listen to the entire thing. We clearly mentioned Terminus (as well as Counterbalance) as other options. I even clearly point out and later repeat Marc's point about SDT enabling other non-blue archetypes. :frown:

[Zombie]

I think you didn't listen to the entire thing. We clearly mentioned Terminus (as well as Counterbalance) as other options. I even clearly point out and later repeat Marc's point about SDT enabling other non-blue archetypes. :frown:

I did. I wrote that while I was listening and just wanted to point out how odd it is to listen to complaints about some card being idiotic and then hear suggestions to ban a different one.

[Bahra]

I did. I wrote that while I was listening and just wanted to point out how odd it is to listen to complaints about some card being idiotic and then hear suggestions to ban a different one.

What?

There was suggestions to ban top, terminus or counterbalance. I don't see how your critique makes any sense.

[Poron]

With Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, Thoughtseize, Pithing Needle, Spell Snare, Swan Song and Grafdigger Cage, imho, there is no sense in keeping Survival Banned.

It wouldn't even be a Tier 1 deck

[Zombie]

What?

There was suggestions to ban top, terminus or counterbalance. I don't see how your critique makes any sense.

They came after I wrote that :P

[Julian23]

Here's the link (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nn6gl5dq79e7jpe/State%20of%20Legacy%20Episode%201-%20Metagame%2C%20Miracles%20and%20more.mp3?dl=0) to the mp3 version of our 1st episode. I have been super busy this week and did not yet get around to create the rss feed. Still, I want you guys to have access to this as promised.

[twndomn]

What?

There was suggestions to ban top, terminus or counterbalance. I don't see how your critique makes any sense.

You can put a disclaimer saying that you guys are just playing the roles of being devil's advocates, having debate on whether things should be banned or not. ESPN debates various topics all the time. However, it just wasn't clear as to what purpose does the discussion is supposed to serve (sounds a bit whinny to me).

As to Zombie's comment, he's fully entitled to make those comments. You don't have to judge whether his comments make sense or not. You guys put the podcast out there, sensical or not, should just be grateful there're feedbacks.


With Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, Thoughtseize, Pithing Needle, Spell Snare, Swan Song and Grafdigger Cage, imho, there is no sense in keeping Survival Banned.

It wouldn't even be a Tier 1 deck

It's not about the SB hate, it's the justification of Not playing Survival. If you play a Vial creature Beatdown deck, why options do you have for Not running Surivial? These decks would converge. At least that was Wizard's reasoning to begin with.

[Julian23]

As to Zombie's comment, he's fully entitled to make those comments. You don't have to judge whether his comments make sense or not.

That's not how these things work. If you see something that is objectively wrong, you point it out to them. This whole idea of "entitled to an opinion" thing is one of the stupidest concepts people keep pushing. Nobody even needs to mention that as it goes without saying that anybody can say anything at all times; that doesn't protect you from people pointing out the objective fallacies of the content of what you just said. This is how you end up with a good discussion.


Regarding the point of the podcast: correct me if I'm wrong but your post makes it as if you think there should be somebody "winning" the discussion about Miracles. That's not what we are aiming for as we all aware that there is no generally agreed on objective way of determining whether a card should be banned.

[Zombie]

That's not how these things work. If you see something that is objectively wrong, you point it out to them. This whole idea of "entitled to an opinion" thing is one of the stupidest concepts people keep pushing. Nobody even needs to mention that as it goes without saying that anybody can say anything at all times; that doesn't protect you from people pointing out the objective fallacies of the content of what you just said. This is how you end up with a good discussion.

Regarding the point of the podcast: correct me if I'm wrong but your post makes it as if you think there should be somebody "winning" the discussion about Miracles. That's not what we are aiming for as we all aware that there is no generally agreed on objective way of determining whether a card should be banned.

^ This. Besides which they realized the problem shortly after, so all is well. It was just weird hearing it and I wrote my feelings mid-listen.

[Poron]

You can put a disclaimer saying that you guys are just playing the roles of being devil's advocates, having debate on whether things should be banned or not. ESPN debates various topics all the time. However, it just wasn't clear as to what purpose does the discussion is supposed to serve (sounds a bit whinny to me).

As to Zombie's comment, he's fully entitled to make those comments. You don't have to judge whether his comments make sense or not. You guys put the podcast out there, sensical or not, should just be grateful there're feedbacks.



It's not about the SB hate, it's the justification of Not playing Survival. If you play a Vial creature Beatdown deck, why options do you have for Not running Surivial? These decks would converge. At least that was Wizard's reasoning to begin with.


are there still vial based creature decks out there? Merfolk and Goblin would never splash green for it. What else is left? Death n Taxes. Yes, this might converge to Maverick but I can't think of anything else of relevant.

[Poron]

Here's the link (https://www.dropbox.com/s/nn6gl5dq79e7jpe/State%20of%20Legacy%20Episode%201-%20Metagame%2C%20Miracles%20and%20more.mp3?dl=0) to the mp3 version of our 1st episode. I have been super busy this week and did not yet get around to create the rss feed. Still, I want you guys to have access to this as promised.

thank you Julian!

[btm10]

Really enjoyed the discussion. I am wondering about the origins of the Miracles segment - is the deck that much more oppressive in Europe than it is in the US? Because while it's putting up numbers here too, but I don't think that it's getting to the point where Miracles needs to be neutered at all.

[amalek0]

Really enjoyed the discussion. I am wondering about the origins of the Miracles segment - is the deck that much more oppressive in Europe than it is in the US? Because while it's putting up numbers here too, but I don't think that it's getting to the point where Miracles needs to be neutered at all.

Far from it. People are just not hating the deck out yet. I promise, if null rods, winter orbs, and pithing needles start seeing even more play, miracles will feel the squeeze. Part of its dominance can, I think, be attributed to the fact that with the exception of pithing needle effects, most flexible sideboard cards do very little against the deck--Miracles has quite the time fighting through winter orbs and null rods, but those cards just don't see nearly as much play as more flexible answers like golgari charm. It's like dredge--if people don't pack enough effective hate, you just win, otherwise, you pretty much just lose. Miracles is a less extreme version of that.

[Barook]

Really enjoyed the discussion. I am wondering about the origins of the Miracles segment - is the deck that much more oppressive in Europe than it is in the US? Because while it's putting up numbers here too, but I don't think that it's getting to the point where Miracles needs to be neutered at all.
All of them play regular MTGO players. And the current meta is ridiculously flooded with Miracle decks right now. Chances are pretty high that you'll encounter at least 2 Miracle decks in a 4-round daily event, if not more.

[btm10]

Far from it. People are just not hating the deck out yet. I promise, if null rods, winter orbs, and pithing needles start seeing even more play, miracles will feel the squeeze. Part of its dominance can, I think, be attributed to the fact that with the exception of pithing needle effects, most flexible sideboard cards do very little against the deck--Miracles has quite the time fighting through winter orbs and null rods, but those cards just don't see nearly as much play as more flexible answers like golgari charm. It's like dredge--if people don't pack enough effective hate, you just win, otherwise, you pretty much just lose. Miracles is a less extreme version of that.

I think that's odd, because so much the hate is pretty versatile. Null Rod and Grip are great against Death and Taxes or any of the equipment based decks, though I will grant that Winter Orb is pretty narrow. Pithing Needle, as you pointed out is also very versatile.


All of them play regular MTGO players. And the current meta is ridiculously flooded with Miracle decks right now. Chances are pretty high that you'll encounter at least 2 Miracle decks in a 4-round daily event, if not more.

That makes more sense. Is there a lack of BUG on MTGO? Or just a lack of hate (as above)?

[Barook]

That makes more sense. Is there a lack of BUG on MTGO? Or just a lack of hate (as above)?
BUG is well-presented.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

Note that those are just decks placing in randomly chosen Daily events, so the numbers aren't representive. Miracles' actual number is probably much higher.

Miracles, Elves and Burn are the most played deck in the current online meta, with a decent chunk of BUG as well.

[Bahra]

I think that's odd, because so much the hate is pretty versatile. Null Rod and Grip are great against Death and Taxes or any of the equipment based decks, though I will grant that Winter Orb is pretty narrow. Pithing Needle, as you pointed out is also very versatile.



That makes more sense. Is there a lack of BUG on MTGO? Or just a lack of hate (as above)?

The metagame of MTGO moves much faster than in paper, but I believe it will catch up soon, we've already seen an increase in miracles during the past 6 months. There's a lot of hate for miracles online, including elves decks with 15 sideboard cards for miracles, there's people playing 12 post and goblins but it doesn't make a difference, the deck is just too good against the rest of the field.

[Barook]

12 Post actually crushes Miracles, but the problem is that it isn't that great against a good chunk of the remaining field.

[twndomn]

I recommend changing the title of your broadcast to "The State of MO Legacy," because that's what you 3 care about. I question the value or the insight since they are exclusively experiences from MO, do they even translate to real paper event? Europe or United States? In paper event, clock or the lack thereof matters, this is especially true when involving Miracles.

[HSCK]

They already went over why they talked about MO and how it relates to the paper meta, specifically how rapidly it changes and adapts and how it takes awhile for it to filter into paper.

I see Waterfalls pop up rather frequently on MODO, much more than paper, is it because of one or two good pilots, some ability to beat Miracles, or just an anomaly in your opinion?

[Dragonslayer_90]

Good job on this podcast guys. Thoroughly enjoying it. Keep up the good work. I was just wondering where can I find the Top 16 decks lists from that MOCS tournament you talked about in the beginning of episode 2?

[Julian23]

Always at your service: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-mocs-2014-09-07

[Julian23]

To be fair, you didn't address Marc's critique of your post which was also "fair game". I'm saying this because you made a claim ("only care about MODO") that lacks substance. In the end it's not about being able to "stomach criticism", but about clarifying things. Resorting to this "accept my criticism" thing is the last resort of someone no longer interested in factual discussion.

[Julian23]

After a week of general abscence, State of Legacy returns tonight at 8pm CEST (GMT+2; that is in 5:55h) with @MattiasNL and @itsJulian23. Tune in at http://twitch.tv/mattiasNL.

[Dosferra]

After a week of general abscence, State of Legacy returns tonight at 8pm CEST (GMT+2; that is in 5:55h) with @MattiasNL and @itsJulian23. Tune in at http://twitch.tv/mattiasNL.

Great, I'm looking forward to it.

[starfox444]

Are you guys looking at getting this going as an actual podcast available from the podcast iOS app? It would be very convenient. Whenever I check the VODs a big chunk of them is taken out by twitch for music.

[Julian23]

Last night I finished uploading all VODs as mp4s and mp3s to the website I'm currently building. It also includes Everyday Eternal Episodes as well as VODs of my stream at HD1080 accessible by matchup. It's a media library for any Legacy-related content I'm involved in.

We're currently taking care of some smaller issues; once those have been resolved, you'll have instant access to everything!

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

Last night I finished uploading all VODs as mp4s and mp3s to the website I'm currently building. It also includes Everyday Eternal Episodes as well as VODs of my stream at HD1080 accessible by matchup. It's a media library for any Legacy-related content I'm involved in.

We're currently taking care of some smaller issues; once those have been resolved, you'll have instant access to everything!

Nice! Hope everything works out. I'll be sure to check it out.

[Julian23]

Last night's new episode of #StateOfLegacy with @MattiasNL, @Bahra01 & @itsJulian23 is now up on http://itsjulian.com as both mp3 or mp4!

[Dragonslayer_90]

Good Job on this podcast so far guys. I've been avidly following it as it's interesting to get a Euro perspective on the American metagame. I think Bahra brought up a good point when you guys discussed the impact of treasure cruise. To extend that point further it'd be interesting to see what you guys have to say about the following: What is the format philosophy of legacy and how much does this or should this factor into consideration for banning a card? As much as we try to be objective as possible as rational human beings, I think format philosophy and culture is an underlying factor in what gets banned, stays banned, and how often bannings/ unbannings happen in nonrotating formats like legacy and modern. To spur on discussion you guys could also bring up comparisons between modern and legacy, but do tread lightly as that is a sensitive topic.

Another question if Mattias is willing to oblige: Is thopter miracles good in the current metagame? If so what do people need to know about playing it that is different from playing other miracle variants?

[MattiasNL]

Hello Dragonslayer,

Format philosophy is a very interesting topic that we have only briefly touched on. Definitely something we could discuss more in depth in future episodes, thanks for the suggestion! I do believe that treasure cruise is very powerful but very beatable and the change it has brought to the format is a positive one in my view, at least right now. We will have to see how the metagame evolves over the next couple of events, most prominently GPNJ.

I must admit I haven't played that much legacy lately, but thopter miracles is certainly still a strong contender. The trend towards more maindecks pyroblasts does hurt the combo though. However the card stoneforge mystic has only gotten better and better over the last couple of weeks. A BBD style miracles build with 4 mystic 2 batterskull might be really strong at the moment.

[nevilshute]

Any more of these coming up?

Would be great to hear about GP NJ, Marc's win at the Richmond Open and everything else that's happened (the SCG announcement about no more regular Sunday Legacy coverage - the new Jeskai Combo deck etc).

Cheers :smile: