10 Months of TNN

[HSCK]

It's been a couple months since the last update, but with August over and most if not all the results TC will have in, I wanted to share the data I collected over the last 10 months. Criteria remains the same as previous updates: 6 or more round tournaments gathered from tcdecks.net.

In the last 10 months I've cataloged the placing of 1616 decks from dozens of tournaments around the world. From the beginning I've taken a special interest in decks that could be considered tier 1, 12 decks that make up the bulk of top 8 performing decks. Before TNN came in in November of 2013, these 12 decks took up around 80% of all placing decks in the top 8 criteria I listed before (Arsenal mined this data.) From November 2013-August 2014, these same 12 decks are 51.61% of all the top 8 decks.

Breakdown by percentage:

Team America 7.43%
Miracles 7.12%
RUG 4.39%
Sneak and Show 4.15%
Deathblade 4.08%
UWR Delver 3.96%
Elves 3.59%
Jund 3.59%
Blade Control 3.47%
ANT 3.47%
Death and Taxes 3.34%
Shardless BUG 3.03%

I remember the arguments about how format warping (and destroying) TNN would be after it came in. It as definitely warped the format to something very different than what it was before, but instead of a giant percentage of placings being one or two decks, we've seen a huge fragmentation, with only Team America and Miracles really being ahead of the other tier 1 decks, and neither coming close to what RUG and Jund were doing before.

I'm sure the arguments about what health and diversity are will continue in the same trajectory as they have been before, but I did want to present this as we can finally compare the 10 months of data from 2013 to the last 10 months and what it may mean for the rest of the year.

[klaus]

thanks for this.

[lyracian]

In the last 10 months I've cataloged the placing of 1616 decks from dozens of tournaments around the world. From the beginning I've taken a special interest in decks that could be considered tier 1, 12 decks that make up the bulk of top 8 performing decks. Before TNN came in in November of 2013, these 12 decks took up around 80% of all placing decks in the top 8 criteria I listed before (Arsenal mined this data.) From November 2013-August 2014, these same 12 decks are 51.61% of all the top 8 decks.
Thanks; it is interesting to see the changes and to know that the top decks have slightly less coverage than they did before.

[Julian23]

Thanks for your work. Judging from my anecdotical evidence, TNN is hardly even a relevant factor for anything where I play (MODO + Southern Germany). My perception might be skewed because I play a lot of Elves which naturally doesn't give a big shit about the card.

After all, 3 mana is still 3 mana in Legacy.

[catmint]

As much as I hated tnn when in came out, it seems like the strategies fighting/ignoring tnn are a bit ahead of the decks playing it and overall things seem to be pretty balanced and "healthy" for legacy standards.

[iamajellydonut]

which naturally doesn't give a big shit about the card.

While this data is nice, considering the rate at which True-Name Nemesis is played and the number of decks that are able to simply ignore it, I'm guessing True-Name Nemesis is not the only determining factor.

[Julian23]

While this data is nice, considering the rate at which True-Name Nemesis is played and the number of decks that are able to simply ignore it, I'm guessing True-Name Nemesis is not the only determining factor.

Determining factor for....what? I'm clueless about what you mean :confused:

[Quizzlemanizzle]

By my personal experience TNN is hardly a factor in the meta game.

When it gets equipped with Jitte it is a beating but so is Vendillion Clique. I don't see how TNN changed much actually and it does not show up in top8s often. It is just an annoying card but not particularly great and far from being the best creature in the format.

[iamajellydonut]

Determining factor for....what? I'm clueless about what you mean :confused:

Sorry, it's early morning and I just got to work. What I mean is that people can't just look at this and say "wow, look at all this change True-Name Nemesis, and True-Name Nemesis, alone brought to the format!", because it's probably not true. The OP's an honest dude from what little I've noticed, but I know other people will see the results and think that.

[HSCK]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I wish I could figure out how to put my spreadsheets up here in case people really doubted the data. Yeah, TNN is definitely not the only reason we've seen fragmentation, I just thought it was interesting that everyone complained it would make the meta all one deck or another but the opposite has occurred. I think Julian's right though, 3 mana is 3 mana, which is a huge investment in Legacy.

[Zombie]

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I wish I could figure out how to put my spreadsheets up here in case people really doubted the data. Yeah, TNN is definitely not the only reason we've seen fragmentation, I just thought it was interesting that everyone complained it would make the meta all one deck or another but the opposite has occurred. I think Julian's right though, 3 mana is 3 mana, which is a huge investment in Legacy.

I don't recall "all deck or another". I recall the meta being about "decks that ignore/go over TNN (typically, combo and decks packing flyers", "decks that play TNN", "decks that should pack it up", with the oddball exception of Miracles which just happens to be a natural predator in it's counterspelling, creature-omnicidal glory. Nothing about specific decks becoming the nuts, just about overall changes TNN would push on the format.

You can see it in decks like Punishing Jund and RUG taking a good nosedive and Miracles asserting itself firmly on the throne of the format (who would've guessed, it's natural predators include decks like Punishing Jund and RUG is probably its hardest Delver matchup) which then naturally drives the little shit of a fish out. Also D&T pre-TNN and D&T post-TNN are pretty different, new D&T builds pack a lot more fliers and SoFI pretty much just so they can play the "go over and try to race Mr. Uninteraction" game.

btw, could you edit Arsenal's numbers there for direct comparison?

[Julian23]

Sorry, it's early morning and I just got to work. What I mean is that people can't just look at this and say "wow, look at all this change True-Name Nemesis, and True-Name Nemesis, alone brought to the format!", because it's probably not true. The OP's an honest dude from what little I've noticed, but I know other people will see the results and think that.

I agree, but still don't know how that blends in with my comment your quoted as I'm pretty much saying the exact same thing.

[DragoFireheart]

So a 3 CMC mini-Progenitus isn't back breaking to Legacy?

I too was wondering if it was ban worthy long while back, but as usual Legacy is too resilient to such petty crap. Seeing two of my favorite archtypes become tier 1 is just icing on the cake.

[iamajellydonut]

I agree, but still don't know how that blends in with my comment your quoted as I'm pretty much saying the exact same thing.

It's not supposed to be related to your post at all. I singled out the "doesn't give a shit" quip simply because I liked the sentiment it conveyed.

[HSCK]

It seems like a lot of extra work to find that post by Arsenal instead of that user just posting it. The last post I saved was this one:



Well, I think it's best if we get an understanding of what the meta looked like before TNN and what it has been looking like after. That is why I normally compare Jan-Oct 2013 to Nov 2013-Jan 2014 as that will give us a large enough sample size to draw conclusions from. I don't think anything before January 1st, 2013 is relevant, but I could be wrong.

[JPoJohnson]

This is interesting! Thanks for all the work you did on this. I have to admit that I'm not surprised that it ended up this way.

On a side note, just for curiosity's sake. Which major player decklists didn't quite make the cut for percentages? (If you have that information).

[HSCK]

The next 4 decks were:

Maverick: 2.35%
UR Delver/Burn: 2.17%
Fish: 2.1%
Reanimator: 1.49%
Bant: 1.3%

They were the only ones over 1% line for the time period. Your gratitude is very appreciated, especially considering how this all started with people basically flaming each other. I'm not sure if I'll keep collecting the data as the original goal was only for 10 months, but it's become somewhat of a routine to collect the data, so maybe till the end of the year.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

The next 4 decks were:

Maverick: 2.35%
UR Delver/Burn: 2.17%
Fish: 2.1%
Reanimator: 1.49%
Bant: 1.3%

They were the only ones over 1% line for the time period. Your gratitude is very appreciated, especially considering how this all started with people basically flaming each other. I'm not sure if I'll keep collecting the data as the original goal was only for 10 months, but it's become somewhat of a routine to collect the data, so maybe till the end of the year.

I think it is amazing how underplayed Oops All Spell is for how good the deck actually is. Guess many players dislike that you can simply be unlucky no matter how good you play.

[ESG]

Thanks for crunching the numbers.

I sometimes wonder if The Source could ever universally agree on a card being banworthy. Judging from all previous ban discussions and the revolving arguments in the B&R thread, the answer is no. Even Flash had plenty of supporters in its time.

I can look at HSCK's numbers and say, "Hmmm, the aggro decks are gone," or, "The first six decks all play Brainstorm and Force of Will." In an earlier era of Magic, these would have been signs that screamed out that there was a problem with the format, but the majority of posters here seem to not be concerned with that.

I still enjoy Legacy more than other formats, but the fun factor is greatly diminished. I'm glad I got to experience the format in its prime.

[iamajellydonut]

I think it is amazing how underplayed Oops All Spell is for how good the deck actually is. Guess many players dislike that you can simply be unlucky no matter how good you play.

I think more players dislike that it's a graveyard based Belcher.

[Tormod]

"Told ya so"

[Quizzlemanizzle]

I think more players dislike that it's a graveyard based Belcher.

Pretty sure it has a considerably higher turn 1 ratio than Belcher though.

Plus since the new Underworld Cerberus tech you can completely transform into Belcher post board when you expect them to have turn 1 graveyard hate available.

[iamajellydonut]

Pretty sure it has a considerably higher turn 1 ratio than Belcher though.

My point was that it's still a gimmicky and fragile combo that can be easily disrupted from A-Z and quite often loses to itself.

[JPoJohnson]

I think it is amazing how underplayed Oops All Spell is for how good the deck actually is. Guess many players dislike that you can simply be unlucky no matter how good you play.

I think it's not fun to draw 7 cards and know that you either have to mulligan or risk it and there isn't really much of a decision tree/interaction/anything that you can do either than deal with the cards that are dealt you.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I think the Data speaks more to how prevelant delver of secrets is, ten months ago, when everyone wanted to play TNN, the best way to beat it was to go over it's head and race it, Delver does just that, coupled with Liliana and hymn to tourach, you hardly care about TNN.

It's still doesn't change the fact TNN is actually lazy and somewhat insulting design, it does however speak that the card itself isn't format warping, at least not in a format with Delver

[Plague Sliver]

Players are prepared for TNN, just like they're prepared for Stoneforge Mystic.

TNN has definitely become ubiquitous to to the point where decks either have a gameplan against it, or are able to ignore it. I don't see it as format-warping, and in my locals not a lot of TNN decks have placed highly.

You answer the equips, or Terminus them, or just kill them. You can get beat by 3x TNN nut draws, but it's not any faster than 3x Delver nut draws.

[FoolofaTook]

By my personal experience TNN is hardly a factor in the meta game.

When it gets equipped with Jitte it is a beating but so is Vendillion Clique. I don't see how TNN changed much actually and it does not show up in top8s often. It is just an annoying card but not particularly great and far from being the best creature in the format.

Losing to True-Name Nemesis is a rare event these days unless Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice is along for the ride. It's a big beat down in either of those cases but TNN itself is not usually a problem. Vendilion Clique is more of a beating because it has flash and it forces your hand at EoT so it's harder to manage as a result. There are so many ways to deal with either of them at this point that it's hard to see them as a major problem.

Delver of Secrets is the problem.

[iamajellydonut]

Delver of Secrets is the problem.

Oh, Jesus Christ, get over it. You want to know what the problem is? People with the inability to understand that new cards are printed. So what if after eighteen years they printed a blue one-drop that doesn't suck?

[FoolofaTook]

Oh, Jesus Christ, get over it. You want to know what the problem is? People with the inability to understand that new cards are printed. So what if after eighteen years they printed a blue one-drop that doesn't suck?

I'm just pointing out that TNN and Clique both are blue-styled control cards with limited tempo use. Delver is a red or green styled card with heavy tempo applications. It actually appears in top 8's in decent numbers at this point, which neither of the other two cards do.

Would you still see Delver as ok if it was just a Merfolk Guide that dropped for :u: and started attacking for 2 each turn?

[Dice_Box]

Jelly, Delver is way outside its colour. It's like printing Counterspell in Green. It's not that Blue only has bad one drops, I mean Judges Familiar is flavourful and good, it's just not a beat down creature. But it's definitely a not Blue. Delver feels more Green/Red to me and it really is a problem.

[iamajellydonut]

Would you still see Delver as ok if it was just a Merfolk Guide that dropped for :u: and started attacking for 2 each turn?

And what if I were to ask you how Griselbrand would be if it was just a Force of Grisel that cost :3::b::b: and countered spells? It's dumb and I don't care.

Delver of Secrets is clearly a good creature, but it is not oppressively good and it neither breaks flavor or mechanics. Every color, even into the modern day, has a history of aggressively costed beaters that are balanced by an in-color drawback. Blue just happened to, after enough iterations, get one that worked.

[Barsoom]

A 3/2 flying for 1 mana is, in my opinion, a broken creature card for this game, and it's totally out of the blue color to have such a creature; the fact that blue can protect it or flip it more easily than the other colors it's another problem.

[nedleeds]

I think it is amazing how underplayed Oops All Spell is for how good the deck actually is. Guess many players dislike that you can simply be unlucky no matter how good you play.

If you own legacy cards why would you ever play such a miserable deck? A game of Dr. Mario is more entertaining than a linear pile like Oops all Dicks. The reason it isn't played more is because people want to have some level of involvement in the game ... also most people interested in legacy have some ability to obtain real cards.

[nedleeds]

Delver of Secrets is the problem.

[MGB]

Pretty sure it has a considerably higher turn 1 ratio than Belcher though.

Plus since the new Underworld Cerberus tech you can completely transform into Belcher post board when you expect them to have turn 1 graveyard hate available.

The "Oops All Spells" deck is basically a worse version of Belcher that is vulnerable to graveyard hate. So it's vulnerable to Storm hate AND graveyard hate. Fail.

There's no reason to play the "Oops All Spells" deck over ANT, TES, Belcher, Elves or Dredge. All five of those decks are superior combo decks.

[btm10]

And what if I were to ask you how Griselbrand would be if it was just a Force of Grisel that cost :3::b::b: and countered spells? It's dumb and I don't care.

Delver of Secrets is clearly a good creature, but it is not oppressively good and it neither breaks flavor or mechanics. Every color, even into the modern day, has a history of aggressively costed beaters that are balanced by an in-color drawback. Blue just happened to, after enough iterations, get one that worked.

I think this is a little disingenuous - blue's aggressive creatures have historically had pretty severe drawbacks been comparatively expensive for their bodies. Maybe I'm forgetting some examples because I took a break for a few years around Worldwake but when it comes to non-Merfolk blue beaters, I still think Spindrift Drake, Serendib Efreet, Waterspout Djinn, and Sea Drake. Not exactly powerhouses. I don't think Delver should be banned, but I really dislike it and its effect on the format.

[iamajellydonut]

A 3/2 flying for 1 mana is, in my opinion, a broken creature card for this game, and it's totally out of the blue color to have such a creature; the fact that blue can protect it or flip it more easily than the other colors it's another problem.

What about it is totally out of blue's color? Does it flip when you gain ten life? Does it have deathtouch and first strike? No, it has flying and it flips on instants and sorceries. But clearly it's not something blue can mechanically do, and besides, blue's not allowed to get good creatures.

[bruizar]

"Told ya so"

Second.

[apple713]

Thanks for crunching the numbers.

I sometimes wonder if The Source could ever universally agree on a card being banworthy. Judging from all previous ban discussions and the revolving arguments in the B&R thread, the answer is no. Even Flash had plenty of supporters in its time.

I can look at HSCK's numbers and say, "Hmmm, the aggro decks are gone," or, "The first six decks all play Brainstorm and Force of Will." In an earlier era of Magic, these would have been signs that screamed out that there was a problem with the format, but the majority of posters here seem to not be concerned with that.

I still enjoy Legacy more than other formats, but the fun factor is greatly diminished. I'm glad I got to experience the format in its prime.


What about it is totally out of blue's color? Does it flip when you gain ten life? Does it have deathtouch and first strike? No, it has flying and it flips on instants and sorceries. But clearly it's not something blue can mechanically do, and besides, blue's not allowed to get good creatures.

it's trigger to flip is appropriate an no one is disputing that, but what the resulting creature is after if flips is too powerful. a 3/2 is too good. had it have been a 2/1 flying faerie, that would have been appropriate. for all relative purposes it could be a 3/1 and just as good. the point is that a 3 power creature with evasion for 1 mana is too powerful outside of the green/red color wheel. in fact, green only has 1 creature even comparable, wild nactal, and yet it doesn't fly or have trample even. The other color i would expect it in is red and red doesn't have anything but goblin guide. the next color i would expect is black, with maybe a 3 life loss draw back like a carnophage. even before i expected it in blue i would have seen it in white as an angel.

the fact that it flips so easily makes it a 3/2 flyer for 1 just as wild nactal is a 3/3 for 1. if green had the choice it would gladly give up that 1 toughness to give nactal flying. so comparatively blue has THE best 1 drop creature ever printed. this under no circumstances should not happen, nor would anyone have ever expected it to.

[ahg113]

blue's not allowed to get good creatures.

Not when they're so cheap to cast. Pyschatog and Morphling are blue creatures that made sense. The condition of Pyschatog to pump, or the higher casting cost and mana-intense usage of Morphling made them on style. Delver is a Sligh creature, and doesn't belong in blue. Blue Sligh = Merfolk, or it's being done wrong.

EDIT: The words used by Apple made a much more compelling argument.

[iamajellydonut]

the next color i would expect is black, with maybe a 3 life loss draw back like a carnophage.

It'd probably be with a trigger exiling the top creature card of your graveyard every upkeep.

Every color, every color, gets "undercosted" creatures. The only limiting factors are mechanics and flavor. Could Delver of Secrets have been a 2/2 flyer and still seen play? Absolutely, but it was printed as a 3/2. And Stoneforge Mystic was printed at 1W. And Deathrite as a 1/2. And Abrupt Decay with "can't be countered". Almost every card has an alternate universe version that could still be playable.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, but how many where out if colour and warped the format like a black hole?

[FoolofaTook]

Yes, but how many where out if colour and warped the format like a black hole?

The only other creature that I can think of that was out of color and warped the format like a black hole was Tarmogoyf. Yes, it's green but in a green-based list it is a 3/4 or 4/5 most of the time and takes longer to get there. In a blue-based list it is a 3/4 almost instantly, a 4/5 by turn 3 at the outside and frequently a 5/6 in the mid-game. It's played successfully in lists with 20+ blue spells more often than anywhere else.

WotC does not manage their eternal meta well unless a real threat to blue dominance appears. Then they snap too and get out the ban stick.

[Dice_Box]

I disagree. Goyf is green by design and flavour. It's a big brutish beater that is cheap but has a weakness. It feeds off the grave so you could argue it could be Black as well, but it's non parasitic way of using the grave feels more Green to me. It brings new life from the old. Not talking about who uses it, that's not the issue at hand. Another argument for another place.

TNN to me also feels Blue in Flavour but not in design. Knowing someone's True-Name means that you should have a level of power over them and that kind of thing, knowledge breading power is a Blue thing. The issue is the mechanical design ran way outside of what the flavor offered and they gave the card a White ability.

Delver is by Flavour a Blue card. A maverick Mage working away on his own in a lab experimenting on himself and others. That's a Blue or Black flavoured card right there. So no issue with that. The problem is that he is Mechanically not Blue. A cheap evasive beater is a Red or Green effect, not a blue one. Hell he could have been a black card that flipped and had Fear and I think then maybe you could pass him off as in colour. But a more efficient beater than green and red both have at his cost? That's not a blue card no matter how you spin it, he should not be there.

You can say that blue finally got its beater, ok, but I would argue it should not have a better one that the colours that traditionally have cheap beaters. Delver is Mechanically as coherent as reprinting Counterspell would be in Green. That's my problem. I can not understand why Blue has THE aggressive one drop of the game. That's not in the pie.

[apple713]

I disagree. Goyf is green by design and flavour. It's a big brutish beater that is cheap but has a weakness. It feeds off the grave so you could argue it could be Black as well, but it's non parasitic way of using the grave feels more Green to me. It brings new life from the old. Not talking about who uses it, that's not the issue at hand. Another argument for another place.

TNN to me also feels Blue in Flavour but not in design. Knowing someone's True-Name means that you should have a level of power over them and that kind of thing, knowledge breading power is a Blue thing. The issue is the mechanical design ran way outside of what the flavor offered and they gave the card a White ability.

Delver is by Flavour a Blue card. A maverick Mage working away on his own in a lab experimenting on himself and others. That's a Blue or Black flavoured card right there. So no issue with that. The problem is that he is Mechanically not Blue. A cheap evasive beater is a Red or Green effect, not a blue one. Hell he could have been a black card that flipped and had Fear and I think then maybe you could pass him off as in colour. But a more efficient beater than green and red both have at his cost? That's not a blue card no matter how you spin it, he should not be there.

You can say that blue finally got its beater, ok, but I would argue it should not have a better one that the colours that traditionally have cheap beaters. Delver is Mechanically as coherent as reprinting Counterspell would be in Green. That's my problem. I can not understand why Blue has THE aggressive one drop of the game. That's not in the pie.

Agree, tarmogoyf should be green; see lhurgoyf originally from ice age. if Tarmogoyf costed BG instead if 1G there probably wouldn't be such an outrage about him.

Disagree with TNN being blue. TNN should be white; see runed halo. protection is a white kinda thing, and so is a decent aggro body see spirit of the labyrinth, thalia, .

[Dice_Box]

You misunderstand. TNN is Blue in flavour. Forget the effect, what he is, a person that knows your true name and uses it to gain power over you, that's a blue concept. The rest of the card is white. But the idea behind it, it's blue. White would not care to know your true name nor would it seek to use it. Flavourly Blue TNN is, mechanically it's White.

Edit.
I would like to add that as a concept I think TNN is dam cool. That idea of knowing someone so well you could work out their true name and use it over them? Yea that's cool. Would have worked well on a flip card. It is had come down where you have this Mage working away to work out your personality and the once it does it (say it gets a counter each time you play a spell with a different name and needs 5 to flip) it becomes this all powerful beast against you. Now that would be a cool card.

[FoolofaTook]

The thing with all of these arguments though is that TNN, which I have never played more than 2-of and tend to play just 1 now, is not a god-awful beating the way that both Goyf and Delver can be if you can't answer them. TNN is not warping the format because he's just not good enough to justify building a list around nor to throw into most lists that could run him. If you get him up with a Jitte or SoFI and attack a couple of times then yeah you will win that game 90% of the time but both the equipments are easily destroyed and usually this is what happens.

Delver is too much damage early on and too evasive for that amount of damage. When I flip a Delver on turn 2 I win a large percentage of the time. The bug is so good that he's worth Dazing to protect, a no-no for any other creature including DRS. Goyf goes into everything I play x4 because when you play him early he demands an answer and when you play him late he wins the game. He's the only playable creature that makes TNN stay at home consistently waiting to draw an equipment.

Either of these should be banned before TNN goes. Vendilion Clique should probably go before TNN goes. I play 1 of her alongside the TNN in a lot of lists and I wouldn't replace either singleton for a 2nd of the other.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

The thing with all of these arguments though is that TNN, which I have never played more than 2-of and tend to play just 1 now, is not a god-awful beating the way that both Goyf and Delver can be if you can't answer them. TNN is not warping the format because he's just not good enough to justify building a list around nor to throw into most lists that could run him. If you get him up with a Jitte or SoFI and attack a couple of times then yeah you will win that game 90% of the time but both the equipments are easily destroyed and usually this is what happens.

Delver is too much damage early on and too evasive for that amount of damage. When I flip a Delver on turn 2 I win a large percentage of the time. The bug is so good that he's worth Dazing to protect, a no-no for any other creature including DRS. Goyf goes into everything I play x4 because when you play him early he demands an answer and when you play him late he wins the game. He's the only playable creature that makes TNN stay at home consistently waiting to draw an equipment.

Either of these should be banned before TNN goes. Vendilion Clique should probably go before TNN goes. I play 1 of her alongside the TNN in a lot of lists and I wouldn't replace either singleton for a 2nd of the other.

Goyf is not that good anymore. It is all situational...

Goyf is utterly terrible against Young Pyromancer for example.

Best creature in the format is Deathrite Shaman by far.

[apple713]

Goyf is not that good anymore. It is all situational...

Goyf is utterly terrible against Young Pyromancer for example.

Best creature in the format is Deathrite Shaman by far.

not that good is a terrible way of describing goyf. he is your quintessential grizzly bears on steroids... on average i would say that goyf on t2 is a 3/4 for 1G, which leaves it splash able. by this comparison it is twice as good as a grizzly bears on average. on T3, he become even greater, possibly a 5/6 for 1G, at which point is incontestably over powered.

If I was an aggro player this is the first card that goes into ALL of my decks. evasion or not no one could reasonably disagree that goyf is the most efficient beater and should be included in any aggro strategy involving green.

[FoolofaTook]

not that good is a terrible way of describing goyf. he is your quintessential grizzly bears on steroids... on average i would say that goyf on t2 is a 3/4 for 1G, which leaves it splash able. by this comparison it is twice as good as a grizzly bears on average. on T3, he become even greater, possibly a 5/6 for 1G, at which point is incontestably over powered.

If I was an aggro player this is the first card that goes into ALL of my decks. evasion or not no one could reasonably disagree that goyf is the most efficient beater and should be included in any aggro strategy involving green.

Yep, Goyf is the every fattie. He's fat against small creatures on turn 2, he's fat against medium sized creatures on turns 3 and 4, he's fat against endgame beaters on turn 5+. He's a win when you and the opponent are in top deck mode and you flip him. (albeit Miracles is an exception to every rule of thumb ever created in competitive Magic.)

He also belongs in almost every control list that splashes green although many do not play him. He's a wall that can attack in those lists and why he has fallen out of favor is unclear to me. I tend towards aggro in the lists I play but the mid-range lists all have 4 Goyfs and the mid-range control lists do also unless what I am doing is just hostile to all creatures in general.

Given that the green splash enables Krosan Grip in the sideboard I don't think any mid-range blue list should be made without 4 Goyfs unless it specifically denies all graveyards or all creatures.

[infiniteJ]

I have been proven wrong time and time again every time I think "Goyf is just a big dumb animal, maybe there is something better I can be doing." Goyf does something that say baleful strix does not do-win games. Because so many legacy games involve a rapid exchange of resources, often times the last goyf standing wins. Especially in say Shardless where he is an easy 6/7.

-IJ

[Dark Ritual]

Delver is grossly out of place color pie wise. Should have been a red card or a 2/2 or 2/1 after flipping in blue. Delver I would argue is the best 1 drop in legacy right now other than brainstorm but even delver has its merits over brainstorm namely that it kills your opponent and brainstorm does not. Not to mention brainstorm is really a turn 2 or after card.

Oops all spells isn't played because it's awful, linear as all hell, and inconsistent. Mulliganing with it feels terrible. I've played against it and it is often a straight goldfish or me duressing their IMS and that leads to a goldfishing as well. There are far too few initial mana sources in that deck. People say it's a 1 card combo. It isn't. You have to draw several cards to get to 4 mana including a spy/informer and if you draw neither spy or informer you're never winning. Naturally drawing narcomoeba is a pain too. There's a reason the deck puts up almost no results.

[AndyTron]

People don't hate delver for being out of color, that's just always the first argument to come up after somebody has already decided they don't like a card for being good and blue because it's so hard to disprove. What about snapcaster? It's exactly the kind of creature blue should be getting these days with it's focus on utility/disruption/flexibility over raw combat stats yet everybody who was screaming for his blood before deathrite took over kept saying that he should have been red. At most I think it could be argued that he's also somewhat red. But since the flash firmly pushes him over into blue anyway, it's a moot point. If delver had been printed as a 2/2 people would be saying the same things they're saying now as long as he still saw play.

[AndyTron]

A 3/2 flying for 1 mana is, in my opinion, a broken creature card for this game

Which explains all those "Ban Circling Vultures" threads I'm always never seeing before.

[Amon Amarth]

People don't hate delver for being out of color, that's just always the first argument to come up after somebody has already decided they don't like a card for being good and blue because it's so hard to disprove. What about snapcaster? It's exactly the kind of creature blue should be getting these days with it's focus on utility/disruption/flexibility over raw combat stats yet everybody who was screaming for his blood before deathrite took over kept saying that he should have been red. At most I think it could be argued that he's also somewhat red. But since the flash firmly pushes him over into blue anyway, it's a moot point. If delver had been printed as a 2/2 people would be saying the same things they're saying now as long as he still saw play.

Er, the poster above you stated more or less exactly that. And SCM should have been red, the color that actually has given cards in graveyards flashback. Flash is a mechanic present in all colors, not the sole domain of blue. Regardless of whether or not Delver or TNN or whatever out-of-color card WotC prints is strong isn't the point. It's that they shouldn't have been printed in the first place. This argument is independent of any cards effect on the the metagame or individual strength. The fact that it is heavily played only makes it worse..

[Dice_Box]

I think I can end this one fairly quickly:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/23680242486/did-you-ever-consider-making-snapcaster-mage-red-or

[AndyTron]

Er, the poster above you stated more or less exactly that. And SCM should have been red, the color that actually has given cards in graveyards flashback. Flash is a mechanic present in all colors, not the sole domain of blue. Regardless of whether or not Delver or TNN or whatever out-of-color card WotC prints is strong isn't the point. It's that they shouldn't have been printed in the first place. This argument is independent of any cards effect on the the metagame or individual strength. The fact that it is heavily played only makes it worse..

What are you talking about? The post above me stated exactly what? That delver should have been a 2/1 or 2/2? The point I was trying to make is that if it was, people would still complain about it by saying the exact same things they're saying now. People don't like it being good and color-bleed is just impossible to either prove or disprove so that's the angle they usually go with. Red gave flashback on exactly one card and only to sorceries. Blue has returned instants to the hard, and allowed them to be played for free from the yard on many many cards. A fair amount of those work with sorceries as well as instants. It actually make more sense to say that red broke the color pie here, but it's debatable. Saying that all colors have gotten flash (although I can't think of any black cards at the moment) isn't the same as saying that all cards should be getting flash. Wizards usually say one color "gets" a mechanic, another has it as secondary, and one more as tertiary. The other two colors aren't supposed to have them, but that doesn't mean they never do. Blue has flash because it's the tricky color. Even if red also gets it sometimes, it's more red then blue. Snapcaster is not more red then blue. At most they're equal, but I don't agree with that either. People just don't like it being a good blue card.

[FoolofaTook]

I think I can end this one fairly quickly:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/23680242486/did-you-ever-consider-making-snapcaster-mage-red-or

Bob and SCM. Argggh. Letting invitational winners design bears with benefits is a mistake. The minimum cc they should be allowed to craft is 5 and the cards should be costed out to be only a 10% bump over what a normal 5cc would do.

[AndyTron]

I think I can end this one fairly quickly:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/23680242486/did-you-ever-consider-making-snapcaster-mage-red-or

If your argument hinges on Maro knowing what he's talking about then you've already lost. A good part of his job is to function as a (terrible) PR guy. He's well know for saying what he thinks people want to hear to cover his own ass, and people have been very vocal about hating snappy. You're talking about the guy who was solely responsible for Tarmo when he thought people we're going to like it, and suddenly had very little to do with it after people started complaining. He also promised that Mythics wouldn't be tournament staples and that he designs bad cards on purpose for our own well being. You don't want this guy in your corner.

[Dice_Box]

Just because the answer is not the one you want is no reason to shoot the messenger. That's a black and white answer from the mother ship. Snap should have been red. Whatever else you want to think, that's the reality of the situation.

Anyway, your looking for a fight, so I think I will just leave until you go somewhere else.

[ahg113]

Which explains all those "Ban Circling Vultures" threads I'm always never seeing before.

I was unaware that a flipped Delver had the same BS "beginning of upkeep trigger" that afflicts Circling Vultures. A crap card from Weatherlight isn't the foundation on which to base an argument and be taken seriously. A flipped 1/1 human into a 2/1 flyer would've been much better. A 10 turn clock versus 7, and it dies to just about 'anything' stronger than a wet fart.

[tescrin]

Goyf is not that good anymore. It is all situational...

And yet, 3/4 of the DTB creature decks are Goyf decks; the other being D&T(I.E. non green, often running Mirran Crusader (for goyf) and Batterskull.)


He's objectively excellent and anyone saying something to the contrary is missing perspective somewhere. I do like other beaters at times, but to say Goyf isn't that good is to fail to understand the format or even magic on a fundamental level. He breaks the manacurve in serious way to the point that despite the extreme creature-power creep over time, he's top-dog over the course of an entire decade plus.

Other cards are good; but they aren't Goyf good.

[AndyTron]

Just because the answer is not the one you want is no reason to shoot the messenger. That's a black and white answer from the mother ship. Snap should have been red. Whatever else you want to think, that's the reality of the situation.

Anyway, your looking for a fight, so I think I will just leave until you go somewhere else.

It's not an answer so much as the opinion of one person. He say's he feels it more red but offers nothing else to back that up. I still think Snappy fits blue's slice of the pie for the reasons I've stated above, but I didn't mean to come off as rude or like I was looking for a fight. I was trying to point out why people shouldn't ever take Maro's word for something, and nothing I said was aimed directly at you in any way.

[AndyTron]

I was unaware that a flipped Delver had the same BS "beginning of upkeep trigger" that afflicts Circling Vultures. A crap card from Weatherlight isn't the foundation on which to base an argument and be taken seriously. A flipped 1/1 human into a 2/1 flyer would've been much better. A 10 turn clock versus 7, and it dies to just about 'anything' stronger than a wet fart.

Read the original post. He was responding to other people saying that delver wasn't that broken because of the drawback by claiming that a flying 3/2 is too strong to print regardless of any downside. I was also making a joke referencing Jelly's previous post, and not making a serious argument. Relax guy.

[menace13]

a flying 3/2 is too strong to print regardless of any downside.
When did anyone say "regardless of any and every downside ever"?

[Amon Amarth]

What are you talking about? The post above me stated exactly what? That delver should have been a 2/1 or 2/2? The point I was trying to make is that if it was, people would still complain about it by saying the exact same things they're saying now. People don't like it being good and color-bleed is just impossible to either prove or disprove so that's the angle they usually go with. Red gave flashback on exactly one card and only to sorceries. Blue has returned instants to the hard, and allowed them to be played for free from the yard on many many cards. A fair amount of those work with sorceries as well as instants. It actually make more sense to say that red broke the color pie here, but it's debatable. Saying that all colors have gotten flash (although I can't think of any black cards at the moment) isn't the same as saying that all cards should be getting flash. Wizards usually say one color "gets" a mechanic, another has it as secondary, and one more as tertiary. The other two colors aren't supposed to have them, but that doesn't mean they never do. Blue has flash because it's the tricky color. Even if red also gets it sometimes, it's more red then blue. Snapcaster is not more red then blue. At most they're equal, but I don't agree with that either. People just don't like it being a good blue card.

It's pretty easy to prove that people don't like it being too good because it's out of flavor for blue: I don't like it for that very reason. I'm pretty sure I'm a people.

[Dice_Box]

It's not an answer so much as the opinion of one person. He say's he feels it more red but offers nothing else to back that up. I still think Snappy fits blue's slice of the pie for the reasons I've stated above, but I didn't mean to come off as rude or like I was looking for a fight. I was trying to point out why people shouldn't ever take Maro's word for something, and nothing I said was aimed directly at you in any way.

I guess I am so use to dealing with IBA being so dismissive and then aggressive I forget not everyone is the same. Sorry.

On the topic, Maro is not the greatest of people to trust, but in this case he is not lying. Please point to a blue card that gives Flashback to other cards that is not Snap. In the Red colour pie you have Past in Flames and Recoup. The effect is a Red one. Maro, on top of exciting cards only provides more evidence to that.

[maharis]

On the topic, Maro is not the greatest of people to trust, but in this case he is not lying. Please point to a blue card that gives Flashback to other cards that is not Snap. In the Red colour pie you have Past in Flames and Recoup. The effect is a Red one. Maro, on top of exciting cards only provides more evidence to that.

Dralnu, Lich Lord is UB. But that is the equivalent of saying that blue should get Nevermore because Meddling Mage is half-blue. (That effect on a bear should be mono white but I digress, pros love blue.) And even then, black had the ability before Dralnu was printed twice (Yawgmoth's Will, Sins of the Past).

But even black was the wrong choice. Snapcaster and similar effects should be red because of the "use it or lose it" nature of the card. If Snapcaster said "When ~ ETB, choose target instant or sorcery card in your graveyard. You may play that card this turn. If you do, exile it." it would functionally be the same and the wording would be clearly red. (Sort of like Sins of the Past/YawgWill. But at least it's excusable in the traditional graveyard-monkeying color from Alpha).

Granted, we can't unprint anything, but it would be nice if in the future R&D wouldn't bend the color pie so often for blue while resisting even the slightest bends in other colors, and further to that explore the areas of design space in the other colors that could make them more objectively powerful. Treasure Cruise is the latest example of "here's how we can use a mechanic to make this crazy blue ability more 'balanced.'" (like Temporal Mastery). Delve Demonic Tutor or Ferocious Plow Under would've been cool.

[FoolofaTook]

At this point if a person is really concerned about TNN's presence in the meta it is almost certainly due to an over-engineered local meta with a player or maybe even a few of them playing multiple TNN in a control or midrange shell.

There are lists that just destroy that kind of list on a regular basis, like Burn and D&T, but if those lists aren't being played much, if the meta is a control/midrange/combo meta with a lot of homebrews waiting around to get wrecked then TNN is going to seem just godly at times.

In most metas it is Delver of Secrets and Terminus that is causing the big blue over-run. Those are the really frustrating cards to deal with at this point. They give blue a heavy presence in aggro, aggro control and control. They more than any other cards are responsible for the top 8's we see at this point.

[uncletiggy]

Im going to agree with fool of a took and say tnn just changed the face of removal its not as oppressive as it was originally hyped to be. Sure the card is unfun unflavorful and off color but I think the meta has more diversity to be gained by removing terminus then it does tnn. Terminus killed archetypes tnn just forces certain card selections.

[FoolofaTook]

Im going to agree with fool of a took and say tnn just changed the face of removal its not as oppressive as it was originally hyped to be. Sure the card is unfun unflavorful and off color but I think the meta has more diversity to be gained by removing terminus then it does tnn. Terminus killed archetypes tnn just forces certain card selections.

Just to fortify the point you just made, ways to remove TNN:

1. Golgari Charm
2. Zealous Persecution
3. Toxic Deluge
4. Terminus
5. Diabolic Edict
6. Marsh Casualties
7. Pernicious Deed
8. Innocent Blood
9. Etc, etc, etc. (4cc sweepers, ways to interfere with islands and mana in general, weird tech that nobody saw coming but man is TNN a drag when it emerges)

Ok, so that list is all black or white, what can other colors do to manage TNN that is Legacy playable?

1. Engineered Explosives (green and red have lots of ways to generate a 3rd color of mana)
2. REB or Pyroblast TNN when it is on the stack as a spell
3. Skullcrack the opponent when he has blocked with TNN
4. Fly over the TNN
5. Fly over the TNN carrying equipment
6. Gain Life (want to make a TNN player cry? Just keep gaining life on them)
7. Play an effective strategy that is not derailed by a land-bound blocker
8. Etc, etc, etc. (If you're getting beat consistently by a 3 power critter with protection from you that can't block any type of evasion change up what you are playing because the 3 power critter is not the problem here)

[ahg113]

Read the original post. He was responding to other people saying that delver wasn't that broken because of the drawback by claiming that a flying 3/2 is too strong to print regardless of any downside. I was also making a joke referencing Jelly's previous post, and not making a serious argument. Relax guy.

Point taken. The jelly comment might've been deleted. I has hate for delver, but am fine with Flying Men. Circling Vultures is an acceptable piece of cardboard as well.

[ahg113]

It's pretty easy to prove that people don't like it being too good because it's out of flavor for blue: I don't like it for that very reason. I'm pretty sure I'm a people.

You are a person, and amidst other persons, would qualify as a group of people.

[tescrin]

I realize this is a thread for people to vent about a lame card, but it's seriously not an issue. It's three mana, two blue, run in only the greediest of mana-bases, and can't make the cut in any of the top decks except *some* team america builds. He's so easy to deal with by simply racing or running an answer. D&T simply added more Flyers, and boom; they're a DTB.

It's an obnoxious creature that you have to mildly hedge against when building a deck. All it takes, however, is any flying dude and a sword and bam; you have an anti-TNN nuke. Scryb Ranger, Birds of Paradise, Lingering Souls, etc..

Further, you can stall or race pretty well with DRS, you can race with just Lingering Souls or Young Pyromancer, Tombstalker, Howling Mandrills. Most of these cards are cheap and require mild build-around but are effective. Even a Rancor Hexproof build or a regular Zoo build will do you fine. Burn them! Go over the top!



For those of you who hate Blue and TNN, you can basically run Zoo and you'll be fine. You'll still fold to Elves pre-side, same with Dredge, Storm, S&T; but that's what half of the fair decks do anyway.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

TNN itself is not the problem, if there is one. It would be the support he has in the decks he is ran. TNN by himself? Either a nigh-unstoppable clock or a nigh-impenetrable wall: not that scary. With Batterskull? Might as well read "you win chosen damage race". Sword of Fire and Ice or Jitte? Not as much of a win as with Batterskull, but they're cheaper to play/equip and provide utility in the form of removal and/or card advantage.

[FoolofaTook]

TNN itself is not the problem, if there is one. It would be the support he has in the decks he is ran. TNN by himself? Either a nigh-unstoppable clock or a nigh-impenetrable wall: not that scary. With Batterskull? Might as well read "you win chosen damage race". Sword of Fire and Ice or Jitte? Not as much of a win as with Batterskull, but they're cheaper to play/equip and provide utility in the form of removal and/or card advantage.

Jitte is worse than Batterskull. Even with SFM fetching and deploying Batterskull it takes time to make that work. With Jitte the combo can be up and running on turn 4 and then the board de-stabilizes in the TNN + Jitte's favor in a big way. Late game there's almost always an answer for Batterskull available and if there isn't then it's Batterskull beating you not TNN. SoFI and Batterskull are about the same because both take a real commitment to deploy.

T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 TNN, T4 Jitte and equip Jitte is about as bad as TNN gets at this point. It takes a great opening hand to do it too.

[Zombie]

Jitte is worse than Batterskull. Even with SFM fetching and deploying Batterskull it takes time to make that work. With Jitte the combo can be up and running on turn 4 and then the board de-stabilizes in the TNN + Jitte's favor in a big way. Late game there's almost always an answer for Batterskull available and if there isn't then it's Batterskull beating you not TNN. SoFI and Batterskull are about the same because both take a real commitment to deploy.

T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 TNN, T4 Jitte and equip Jitte is about as bad as TNN gets at this point. It takes a great opening hand to do it too.

Thing is, say I'm playing Elves. I'm not actually super scared of Jitte. Worried, yes, and I have to respect it for sure. But I can handle Jitte and it can really give the opponent something nice and powerful to do. TNN by itself is whatever because I'm playing a combo deck and can just trample over it (though again, Jitte games can be interactive and tense. TNN games are just about ignoring Mr. Uninteraction). TNN+Jitte, eww.

Just a classic case of a fun card and a shit card again, and people suggesting the shit card is not a problem, do away with the fun card. (or at least the more interesting one of the two in this case)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Honestly I don't believe TNN or whatever sword he's carrying was ever a problem. Neither is SFM if ya want to take into consideration how it's pretty much a staple in any list with TNN and equipments. All I was saying with my previous comment is that TNN itself isn't scary by itself, but it's hardly ever ran without some Merfolk lord in Merfolk or some equipment and SFM in a Blade deck.

Thus, it's not exactly a case of a strong card, but a strong interaction between multiple cards. And if one were to be banned for whatever reason (either SFM or TNN, simply because banning equipment would be futile), you'd have to choose between a rather ubiquoutous tutor that has enabled several decks over the years, or a rather dull clock that, as the data provided suggests, has yet to have as big of an impact as SFM has.

[HSCK]

I'm working on month 11 right now and only one of the top 6 decks even has TNN. Miracles, Elves, Death and Taxes, Deathblade, Jund, and Infect are all a little away from the pack right now.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm working on month 11 right now and only one of the top 6 decks even has TNN. Miracles, Elves, Death and Taxes, Deathblade, Jund, and Infect are all a little away from the pack right now.

Jund really isn't top 6 at this point. It's a very powerful list but consistency problems keep it from being tier 1. If you want a list to go 6-2 with Jund is your best bet overall but if you want to top 8 a large event it isn't really good enough. That doesn't mean it won't top 8 but it takes a lot of luck with matchups and draws to make that happen.

[HSCK]

Jund really isn't top 6 at this point. It's a very powerful list but consistency problems keep it from being tier 1. If you want a list to go 6-2 with Jund is your best bet overall but if you want to top 8 a large event it isn't really good enough. That doesn't mean it won't top 8 but it takes a lot of luck with matchups and draws to make that happen.

I have no idea what you're talking about with your comment. Jund is in the top 6 of performers for the month of September right now. It's not a question of how good the deck is, or what it can do, but where it is in top 8 placings relative to everything else.

[FoolofaTook]

I have no idea what you're talking about with your comment. Jund is in the top 6 of performers for the month of September right now. It's not a question of how good the deck is, or what it can do, but where it is in top 8 placings relative to everything else.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=301&meta=39&f=LE

Jund last two months: 9 top 8 finishes. No wins. 2 second place finishes.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=23&meta=39&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=213&meta=39&f=LE

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=338&meta=39&f=LE

Delver based lists: 28 top 8 finishes. 2 wins. 9 second place finishes.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=86&f=LE

BUG Aggro-Midrange: 33 top 8 finishes. 9 wins. 8 second place finishes.

Delver and BUG Aggro-Midrange are hard to sort out but Delver himself is very well-represented at the winning tables over the last two months.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=242&f=LE

Miracles: 41 top 8 finishes. 13 wins. 12 second place finishes.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=172&meta=39&f=LE

Stoneblade: 21 top 8 finishes. 5 wins.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=38&meta=39&f=LE

Elves: 19 top 8 finishes. 6 wins. 4 second place finishes.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=33&meta=39&f=LE

Show and Tell - SA: 15 top 8 finishes. 3 wins. 3 second places finishes.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=319&meta=39&f=LE

Death and Taxes: 11 top 8 finishes. 1 win. 3 second place finishes.

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=35&meta=39&f=LE

Storm Combo: 16 top 8 finishes. 3 wins, 7 second place finishes.

You can't classify Jund as in the same tier as the lists above. It's more in the Burn category as an often played archetype that will trickle into top 8's based on representation but rarely be seated at the final table of the night.

Jund is one of the archetypes I've played a lot and I've finally just accepted the fact that it is not consistent enough to be a real contender. The card advantage engines are real but finding them and protecting them without blue to help is really hard. Elves and D&T avoid the problems that Jund has by being extremely tight and focused lists. Jund is like a beltful of hand grenades and once you've tossed them you are at the mercy of any surviving opponents.

[HSCK]

I'm using The Council's database for September tournaments with a min of 33 players per tourney, in which case Jund is in the top performing 6 decks. It's not a qualitative discussion, you're more than welcome to check out the tourney database.

[BoiledDenim]

I wreck all the TNN at the LGS by running Circle of Protection Blue. Works on Delver to.