Is this a legit excuse fora 61 card deck ?

[RokiLothbard]

I hate to ask this here, when maybe it should go in casual. So any mods .... please demote if you see fit. No offense intented.

I've got a Pyromancer's Ascencison pet deck. It's a turn or turn and a half slower than all real combo decks (although a little more control-ly). It's tier 1.5, at maximum, and maybe more like tier 2.5. But I do think the question is interesting theoretically.

It's a RUG Pyromancer's Asecnsion deck. I'll spare you the details. But right now, if I were to cut 1 card to go from 61 to 60, I'd go from 4 to 3 Gitaxian Probes. But Cmon, it's Pyromancer's Ascension. How can I not want a a 4-of for a zero-cost cantrip? If I were to cut almost anything else, I'd be going 3-of on some other instant or sorcery that doesn't cost zero, and the mana is almost exactly right where it is.

So, wuddya think? Am I right that this deck just should be 61 cards? please make theoretical arguments in the contrary.

[JPoJohnson]

60 decks is not kosher. There are plenty of reasons to go 61 and it is fine.

[tescrin]

Anyone who tells you a 61 card deck is garbage because it's so inconsistent has not played the number of games necessary to actually tell the difference. I think, for instance, a lot of delver decks would benefit from going to 61 for the 19th land (or 20th in other variants) as it's basically splitting the difference. They say 18 is spot on but somewhat weak and that 19 causes too much flooding, but 61 with 19 may actually be the right way to go.

61 makes the most sense in fair decks (where that last .05% or w/e won't kill you anymore than it helps you) and especially those decks with some kind of tutoring (KotR, GSZ, SFM to a lesser degree, etc..)

61 makes much less sense in a combo deck where you MUST see a 4-of (S&T being a great example.) It probably won't cost you much percentage in games in all honesty, but a combo deck does require the correct composition to go off, so every little bit helps.

Again, fair decks (between the longer games, Dark confidant, and other engines) don't notice it too much, and combo decks should generally avoid it; but it's not the end of the world as some people will spew.

[Finn]

There are some quasi-mathy articles from a decade or so ago that deal with this. The logic begins to break down with as many cantrips as Legacy decks often have. But they were influential enough ideas to create a "60 or die!" Attitude around here for a long time.
The question I ask myself is "is the disadvantage of having the deck at 61 less than the disadvantage if cutting any of the individual 61 cards?

[Koby]

Anyone who tells you a 61 card deck is garbage because it's so inconsistent has not played the number of games necessary to actually tell the difference. I think, for instance, a lot of delver decks would benefit from going to 61 for the 19th land (or 20th in other variants) as it's basically splitting the difference. They say 18 is spot on but somewhat weak and that 19 causes too much flooding, but 61 with 19 may actually be the right way to go.

61 makes the most sense in fair decks (where that last .05% or w/e won't kill you anymore than it helps you) and especially those decks with some kind of tutoring (KotR, GSZ, SFM to a lesser degree, etc..)

61 makes much less sense in a combo deck where you MUST see a 4-of (S&T being a great example.) It probably won't cost you much percentage in games in all honesty, but a combo deck does require the correct composition to go off, so every little bit helps.

Again, fair decks (between the longer games, Dark confidant, and other engines) don't notice it too much, and combo decks should generally avoid it; but it's not the end of the world as some people will spew.

This is generally everything you need to know about 60 vs 61 arguments. It's never concrete or absolute, and tescrin hit all the high points correctly.

In most combo decks, you want to maximize the ability to see your important card even if you already play more than enough cantrips.
In most tutor heavy decks, you can generally add the 61st card and not notice the difference.

That said, there's also typically a 61st card that can easily be cut. There is always going to be the "worst card in the deck" and you should work towards bringing the deck down to 60 cards.