[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Ralf]

Anyway, for those playing stoneforge and drs, do you skip deed altogether ?
If yes why nobody is arboring some dryad?
I've found that having the 4 zenith count as acceleration alongside the drs and the explorers ensure a smooth early game and arbor provides a surprise equipment carrier of a fetch or protect against liliana.

Hum.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=905974&viewfull=1#post905974

[sdematt]

@ matt : how were the painful truth ?

I like the idea of safekeeper, but maybe in the sideboard against white decks (rhino survives non white removal), mostly because my list is tight as it is (playing 4 rhino and stoneforge).

About substituting quasali for rec sage, I've made the switch but for me it was a way to have a 5/6 rhino so I could ignore opposing Goyf/Tasigur and race some zombie fish. Also, while it cost the same amount of mana in total, 3+1 is much flexible than 4 and let you play around daze and spell pierce.

The body being a lot bigger is relevant because I think that rhino fit is the most agro version of nic fit .

Anyway, for those playing stoneforge and drs, do you skip deed altogether ?
If yes why nobody is arboring some dryad?
I've found that having the 4 zenith count as acceleration alongside the drs and the explorers ensure a smooth early game and arbor provides a surprise equipment carrier of a fetch or protect against liliana.

I liked Painful Truths quite a bit. I think 2-3 is a good number.

-Matt

[MrIggins]

Painful Truths looks really nice for the Jund builds. For the white builds, is the 3rd card enough better than doubling as a removal spell? I'm comparing it to Abzan Charm here.

[Ganfar]

I do agree hunter is a really good card, but the 6 drops are even more powerful. Titan grabs stronghold or wolfrun, dragon is great against Liliana and jace besides all the other flyers. And ruric thar beats combo and every delver deck with ease.
Yes, 6 drop are more powerfull then 4 drops. However you don't always get the six mana to cast them or be too late. Rutic thuar seems to be a better sideborad card for combo.

[sdematt]

Painful Truths looks really nice for the Jund builds. For the white builds, is the 3rd card enough better than doubling as a removal spell? I'm comparing it to Abzan Charm here.

Id say yes, since we already have so much removal.

Talking with Koby, suggested I cut Safekeeper and make room for Sun Titan and Lilianas. I disagree in theory since it can be hard to break that symmetry in Junk versus Jund which can discard Fires, but now with Truths it may not be as bad.

Possible change:
-1 Safekeeper, -1 Rhino, -1 Elspeth, -1 Qasali. Add 3 Liliana and 1 Sun Titan. Also possible: another E Wit, Courser, 2 sfm 2 equip, etc.

[Tom4ik]

tilzinger or jbone making it to mead hall tonight? I should be but I will most likely sleeve up a bug midrange deck with Drs and painful truths. Miracles was pretty big last week there. So either this or I could just jam tusk after tusk into the maw of terminus too so idk haha

[Viridia]

This is a slightly updated version of the BUG list i've been running for a while.
Latest changes are DTT -> Painful Truths and adding Titania and DRS to test.


Mainboard (61)

24 Lands
2 Bayou
2 Forest
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

14 Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Veteran Explorer


20 Other spells
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Cryptic Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Painful Truths
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard (15)

2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Thragtusk
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize


haven't had the chance to really test this yet, i would however love to hear some other people's thoughts on it :)

[Ralf]

haven't had the chance to really test this yet, i would however love to hear some other people's thoughts on it :)

I'll give you mine so we could exchange some ideas.

This is a no "cunning wish" list.


1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ætherling
2 Baleful Strix
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder

SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Krosan Grip



1) Deck philosophy

This deck is very similar to any control deck using 4 ponder as a strong setup plan.
"Ponder miracle" tries to assemble countertop and I am trying to assemble veteran + therapy to gain massive advantage.

By doing so (4 ponder list), you can decrease drastically the amount of lands needed in such a control deck.
The list might be stretched to the maximum as I have elected to play 20 lands. But rest assured, I've done my maths due diligences and a lot of tests so far (either with this list or with my wish Fit list) so that I'm comfortable with this number. Nevertheless, I won't blame anyone for playing another one (at least an utility one, be it a manland or something else)

I have debated more than enough here about the sheer power of ponder over gitaxian probe or over SDT. If gitaxian could have been during a glimpse of time, a serious contender, since DTT ban, it has lost a lot of its flavor.

As far as PT (Painful truths) is concerned, it has replaced DTT as a 2-of for testing purposes (as I was impressed by the results in my Junk Fit list), BUT 2 SDT might as well be the way to go. Time will tell.

Anyway, as every other Nic Fit list, your main goal is to go over the top and BUG has ALL the necessary tools (including access to the most powerful color in its shell,or at least the most represented in our format).


2) Creature selection

- Snapcaster has been included because it provides such a unique effect. Games against miracles were also a bit harder without him. It is to BUG fit what Eternal witness is to Jund or Junk colors.

- Scavenging ooze is a necessary evil in such deck as it is one if not your only "out" to grave based strategies which are usually designed to beat BUG strategies (PF is a real enemy, grave based combo decks etc...). It is also a cheap (by cheap consider cheap + not requiring GG) life gainer or a huge beast in some MU (Burn and D&T to name it). Ability that is always more handy than not. DRS might be better at gaining life, easier to cast but is also easier to kill/to hate or play around.

- Baleful strix is also a necessary evil. I have kind of a love/hate relationship with the guy. I always feel unimpressed by the guy, mostly because of the stress it puts on your very first turns (does not require green and so is a theorically nonbo with veteran)) but each time I ended up cut him, I have regretted it.

- Glen Elendra is my muse. Usually played SB as a 1 of in a lot of BUG Fit along with Notion Thief, I have elected to play her MD, instead of a pair of Thragtusk. Her effect is no match in legacy in my humble opinion. Sure, Thrag is life with powerful ETB and LTB triggers and has a professional left-swing that can knock out an opponent but GLE has won my preference. Her lower CMC and evasive capacity were the real deal. Not to mention her unique effect and good synergy with the whole deck. Pitchable to FOW was ice on the cake.

- Aetherling is the beater. Far less powerful than the good old Grave Titan. I have won lots of games against miracle but lost some others because he was not G.Star. As winning G1 against miracle, to avoid draw brackets, was a "deciding" key factor, the guy took G.Titan's slot. And if you are still wondering whether he is truly an edge over miracle, just...trust me or play test at least 20 games to get a good grip.


3) Spell selection


3.1) Removal package:

-2 Deed
-1 Toxic
-3 AD
-1 Maelstrom

The 3rd AD might be one too many. With the resurgence of Elves / D&T / S&S, playing a 1-of golgari charm MD is a change to consider/make. I will.
Snapcaster is shining here.


3.2) Disruption package

- 4 CT -> pretty standard
- 4 FOW -> I would not argue here. Some like it hot, some don't. My ground is full of unfair strategies, going out "uncovered" is asking for sexual diseases...


3.3) Planesuckers

- 2 Jace: I guess we can argue here. Liliana was cut from MD during DTT time. Also she was going against the rule n°1 when playing such a BUG list:
"NO CARDS REQUIRING DOUBLE COLOR REQUIREMENT UNDER CMC 4."
Yeah, that is what you get when you are playing a very tight mana that binds you to some *ruleofthumb*.
With such a great density of spells you must ensure you will be able to cast them all, at least G1.
Once the coast is clear, G2 and G3 you can go crazy.
Liliana will stay a SB tool until I revise my judgment or til' the meta burst my face.


4) Sideboard


To fight back against the public enemy n°1 (Blue to name it), one shall always remember that most opponent will side in any anti blue card they might have access to. This usually means that postboard, I invite anyone playing BUG to go "Blacker" or "Greener" or any "mixed BG grill" that looks saucy for you and salty/spicy for your opponent.

Playing a 4 ponder list grants you a large choice.

I have always been very fond of a huge 1-of pile which can attack several different MU:


4.1) Against grave strategies

- a grave wipe = here, nihil spellbomb because nuking your own grave(relic of progenitus for exemple) can be detrimental to snapy shenanigans
- an anti grave = leyline
- 2 anti combo / recursion = 1 permanent spell with "cage" and 1 instant spell "extirpate". I do believe the "TS+surgical screw you" scenario to be very unlikely because of the odds that I prefer "extirpate".


4.2) Against storm combo and some control

- 3 TS = I believe you can do a mixed grill with 1 duress (hedging a bit more against burn) / 1 TS / 1 HTT
- 1 Fluster = uncounterable stuff snapcastable ? Yes sir.
- 1 Liliana = If you survive the early turns, having a bitch bitching every turn is money wise.
- 1 Vendilion = Clock+ Disruption. If your field is burn heavy and you feel safe about combo MU, Thragtusk is a good replacement to Clique.


4.3) Aggro from the Ghetto

- 1 Engineered plague = Tribal decks public enemy. NoSB can also be an option but...more expensive. Rather be digging for other answers if my EP got nuked than dead with NoSB in hand because of 4-CMC...
- 1 Trinket mage = kamikaze chumper calling for backups
- 1 Engineered explosives =another valuable catch'all
- 1 Cage => mostly for GSZ decks and green f.ckers.


4.4) Swiss army knives

- 1 Trinket
- 1 Pithing
- 1 Krosan

Hope you enjoyed the ride as much as I enjoyed the writting.

/happy to discuss

Ralf.

[sdematt]

Went X-0 with RhinoTime on my birthday. How...Fitting...get it? :P

3 Siege Rhino
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Scavenging Ooze
15

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
14

2 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
11

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
22

2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize

Courser was nice to have, but felt small. 2nd E. Wit wasn't really ever relevant. Missed having Elspeth, Knight Errant. Liliana didn't really break any backs, and the matchups didn't really need her. I think I like Courser enough to try him out again, but I'll bring back Elspeth. I've been missing having Dryad Arbor a few times, so I think I'm going to try him and maybe just some loose equipments with no SFM (2010 technology, baby).

I don't really miss not having Recurring Nightmare. Painful Truths has been excellent everytime. Sylvan has also been great. I haven't had a ton of explosive starts with Vets in the past little bit, and you sometimes do feel behind against decks like Maverick until you hit multiple Rhinos and/or multiple Deeds/Deluges. I might go back to trying a Thragtusk again as well. Since I don't have time to test each major matchup for 2-3 hours because of school, if anyone wants to run the Rhino list against the following matchups, that'd be wonderful help so I can rep at Seattle!

Miracles
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG
BUG Delver

I feel like if Lands is going to be popular, especially moreso control since it's better against Miracles, having the Safekeeper may not be terrible, but that's where Thrun and Sigarda shine anyway.

[Tom4ik]

I agree with most of the Ralf post. I have been a proponent of probe in the past and would probably still run it in Bug but it is a lot worse than it was with DTT so running ponder is pretty close.

I ran 21 land in my Bug fit (with 2 tarpits/9 fetches/5 duals/5 basics) and bug is absolutely playing the game of a control deck with a low land count game. I also have/would drop Lily from the main. She is better in deck that can abuse her symmetry or doesnt aim to go as over the top. I am on 2 painful truths so in the glen elendra spots I have 2 tusk instead. GE is better against combo decks but tusk is still a beating against midrange. I also ran 3 Jace and do not discount the idea of bouncing tusk and replaying it every turn.

I do not run ooze main deck but do have 1 in the side. I wouldnt run them main deck but I do agree with why Ralf likes them there but I must not have the same value on it.

SB is a bit different. I ran 2 surgical as I had 3 snapcasters, also 2 TS, 1 grip, 1 decay, 1 deluge (so I didnt run 1 main) I had 2 negate, 2 liliana, I have 1 top for the grindy games as well. I ran 1 glen elendra. I also ran 1 Notion thief because its Notion thief and sometimes he gives you a free win. Against storm or now sneak, enchantress (for some reason I have played that 2 times in the last 2 weeks by different ppl) or whatver that cannot remove it and of course the brainstorm steal. I had 1 flex spot in my board I was trying things like lily origins, dispel, a stronghold in the board, etc.

@Matt- I always like having 2 witness in my jund list but with stronghold you may not need the 2nd. also you have more ways of raw card advantage with 2 truth and 1 library that it is probably cuttable. I would cut courser first however. I am not impressed by that card. I know with top it can be an a nice value engine but I think it is fairly low power.

Edit- I do not have the 3 white duals (white duals? yuck! lol) If I can either pick up some cheap ones or get some loaners I will play the lists you post in my weekly and any weekend event I go to for the next (3 weeks is it?) few weeks. I also have some people in my group that play miracles and shardless almost exclusively so i could maybe get some testing in on those.

[Blastoderm]

Rhino-fit is something I've been wanting to try. Have you considered Garruk, Primal Hunter? As for lands, I find the quick marit lage to be the problem. Also, hows the MUD matchup?

[jbone2016]

So, what do we think the best way to beat miracles is? Lily, faster clock, fires? Next to maybe MUD or 12 post....probably my worst match-up.

2nd thought: Who will be in St. Louis.....or Seattle for the GP?

[Dadadot]

My current (everchanging) build. Suggestions welcome.
I wanted to try out the addition of probe and painful truth because the deck has good lifegain in general and i wanted to use that as a additional ressource. In addition it allows me to draw my reccuring nightmare earlier and improves my cabal therapies as i am still learning the format.
I got rid of most of the stuff which would die to deed and through which i would cripple myself.

Just tried on xmage but it works well so far.

On a sidenote: I'm beginning to fall in love with painful truth. After the banning of dig you can actually win through card advantage against blue decks.

Lands 21:
Bayou
Savannah
Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
Phyrexian Tower
Stirring Wildwood
Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures 15:
Deathrite Shaman
4 Explorer
Qasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
Sigarda
Thragtusk

Control Stuff 13:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

Other Stuff 11:
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truth
Recurring Nightmare

Sideboard:
Pissing Needle
3 Extirpate
Night of Soul's Betrayal
Surgical Extraction
Acidic Slime
2 Krosan Grip
Maelstrom Pulse
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm

[Tao]

So, what do we think the best way to beat miracles is? Lily, faster clock, fires? Next to maybe MUD or 12 post....probably my worst match-up.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=749308&#post749308

Punishing Fire imo has the best the best matchup against Miracles. You have awesome SB options as well as Fire to keep Jace under control and go well with Liliana (protect it against their small guys and discard it to her ability). I wrote a primer about the deck ages ago, decklists needs to be reworked. But looking at the recent Miracle lists it should still be somewhat up to date. Some broken stuff got printed and banned again but oddly enough it seems that not much has changed. The Dragonlord Atarka seems good. No idea about the other matchups though. But a big problem is Dark Depths, there seems to be no solution.

"Faster clock" is the absolute wrong approach to the Miracle matchup. The Miracle deck excels at stopping aggression. It is designed to beat aggressive decks that are 10x better at being aggressive than Nic Fit. You have to play for value. Liliana is awesome though because they can't StoP it or Terminus it.

[Bobmans]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=749308&#post749308

Punishing Fire imo has the best the best matchup against Miracles. You have awesome SB options as well as Fire to keep Jace under control and go well with Liliana (protect it against their small guys and discard it to her ability). I wrote a primer about the deck ages ago, decklists needs to be reworked. But looking at the recent Miracle lists it should still be somewhat up to date. Some broken stuff got printed and banned again but oddly enough it seems that not much has changed. The Dragonlord Atarka seems good. No idea about the other matchups though. But a big problem is Dark Depths, there seems to be no solution.

"Faster clock" is the absolute wrong approach to the Miracle matchup. The Miracle deck excels at stopping aggression. It is designed to beat aggressive decks that are 10x better at being aggressive than Nic Fit. You have to play for value. Liliana is awesome though because they can't StoP it or Terminus it.


The only 2 cards against depth's (3/4 actually) are Blood Moon, Diabolic Edict and Extirpate/Surgical Extraction (when they dredge depths or stage into the yard). RG Lands is just near impossible to win from.

[pettdan]

The only 2 cards against depth's (3/4 actually) are Blood Moon, Diabolic Edict and Extirpate/Surgical Extraction (when they dredge depths or stage into the yard). RG Lands is just near impossible to win from.

I was playing/testing punishing fit with Burning Wish in the main and Ruination in the sideboard this spring. It was nice to have something available from the first game for the worst matchups - Cloudpost and Lands. Also relevant for locking nonbasic heavy decks out once you have a favorable board position. Will try again soon.

Playing Ralf's(?) BUG Wish Fit with Cunning Wish for Ravenous Trap after a dredged Depths is another relevant interaction. The nice thing about it is you don't need to have Trap in your hand, often a dead card, but can keep a wish and wait until the opportunity to exile Depths with the entire graveyard appears.

Good cards vs Miracles are, I agree, Punishing Fire killing Jaces and occasional Mentors. And Slaughter Games getting win condition/Jace/Terminus.

[Plm]

@ miracle : punishing fit has the better game against it, post side a quick slaughter games (maybe fueled by carpet of flowers ) is the way to beat them, go after their win con (jace then entreat/mentor) then witness it back/play a second one. Drop a threat, ride it 'till they answer, rice and repeat (bonus point if you have the two towers online and can rhino them).
I splash a taiga and 3 S.games in rhino fit for that match up (also work against 12 post, albeit not as strongly) if shardless can splash a 4th color for a match up post side I think we can do it.
Also equipment and the surprise arbor can cut some work (or wolfrun plus any dork in the punishing version)

@ lands : that's the reason why I play 4 path (that and some zombie fishes), also most lands players tend to ignore the fact that we usually can survive one marith lage hit and swing back. If your meta is saturated with dark depth you can always pack some sowing salt (or the reprint) but it clutter the sideboard if your not playing burning wish. One thing to keep in mind is that chalice will come for postside games,so keep a decay/deed at the ready.

@ faster clock : rhino fit is the fast version, and it isn't fast enough to win without disruption but it is midrangy whereas punishing is hard board control (and I haven't played bug fit so I have no idea how it plays)

[Ralf]

My latest BUG control list has a lot of tools against miracle. GLE is a nightmare for miracle where Thragtusk is just a pain.

I dunno if there is a best version against miracle. JUND has certainly the best chances to beat miracle in 3 games BUT 50 mins are usually not enough.

My latest approach is focusing on winning G1 and I do believe that BUG is as suited as JUND if not more, as of now, to accomplish this goal.

- Jace is usually a pain for Junk.
- A resolved Deed avoids dying from Entreat.
- Liliana forces them to act. And we all know that the first making any move in a control mirror is usually the one who is going to lose.
- Jund is the better liliana.deck among all nic fit version.
- Cabal therapy are key factors; knowning what you must go for with what Nic Fit version you are playing is key.

Pick your weapon of choice and start testing !

PS: It's been a while since I played with the BUG Wish version. The list was shinning during DTT era.
It might need a bit of revamping since the meta has changed again...
But I would love hearing from other players who have played with it.

[Tao]

For Punishing Fire versions:

1. You play Control against Miracles. There are three ways you can lose the game 1.

- The first is that they get Counterbalance out and you can't deal with it. So play enough Abrupt Decays. When I wrote the primer Miracle played only 2-3 CB so 2 Decays seemed enough. I would go to 3 now and remove a Fire for it. Probably also add this new GSZ disenchant, Reclamation Sage. CB needs to be kept off the table.
- The second way that they can win is with an unanswered Jace. You have to fight Jace with Fire and Thrun and Discard.
- The third way is a big Entreat in the late game. If you managed to keep CB and Jace off the table you should have been able to put a Deed on the table at some point and leave it unused.

2. To ensure that you can find the right answers Sensei's Top is the most important card. I think 4 copies of it in Punishing Fire versions is correct. I think even 3 is not enough. 2 is certainly not enough. Games 2 and 3 get much easier because you have REB for Jace and Slaughter Games for Entreat or Jace and maybe an additional Disenchant effect for CB and an additional big threat. But in G1 you need to spin the Top a lot to find your answers. Maybe this new draw spell (3 Mana draw x lose x) can replace a Top.

3. What you should not do is trigger Explorer carelessly. I always sided it out for G2 and G3, designing the SB to be able to do this is very helpful. In G1 it is half of the time better to sacrifice a Witness or a Huntmaster token to Therapy. Your hand needs to have a lot of gas if you commit to triggering Explorer. They have Brainstorm and Jace to shuffle away extra lands but you don't.

4. Liliana is great against them. She is not integral but she makes it easier to follow your game plan.

5. Time is a major issue in this matchup. Many Divining Tops and going full late game. Play fast yourself from turn 1 on and don't hesitate to call a judge on your opponent if he is thinking to long.

[ironclad8690]

For Punishing Fire versions:

1. You play Control against Miracles. There are three ways you can lose the game 1.

- The first is that they get Counterbalance out and you can't deal with it. So play enough Abrupt Decays. When I wrote the primer Miracle played only 2-3 CB so 2 Decays seemed enough. I would go to 3 now and remove a Fire for it. Probably also add this new GSZ disenchant, Reclamation Sage. CB needs to be kept off the table.
- The second way that they can win is with an unanswered Jace. You have to fight Jace with Fire and Thrun and Discard.
- The third way is a big Entreat in the late game. If you managed to keep CB and Jace off the table you should have been able to put a Deed on the table at some point and leave it unused.

2. To ensure that you can find the right answers Sensei's Top is the most important card. I think 4 copies of it in Punishing Fire versions is correct. I think even 3 is not enough. 2 is certainly not enough. Games 2 and 3 get much easier because you have REB for Jace and Slaughter Games for Entreat or Jace and maybe an additional Disenchant effect for CB and an additional big threat. But in G1 you need to spin the Top a lot to find your answers.

3. What you should not do is trigger Explorer carelessly. I always sided it out for G2 and G3, designing the SB to be able to do this is very helpful. In G1 it is half of the time better to sacrifice a Witness or a Huntmaster token to Therapy. Your hand needs to have a lot of gas if you commit to triggering Explorer. They have Brainstorm and Jace to shuffle away extra lands but you don't.

4. Liliana is great against them. She is not integral but she makes it easier to follow your game plan.

5. Time is a major issue in this matchup. Many Divining Tops and going full late game. Play fast yourself from turn 1 on and don't hesitate to call a judge on your opponent if he is thinking to long.

Don't for get Mentor and all those shenanigans. We do have answers, but that card requires them to be pretty immediate before we take tons of damage.

[Tao]

Don't for get Mentor and all those shenanigans. We do have answers, but that card requires them to be pretty immediate before we take tons of damage.

Oh yeah, that is true. Mentor is a new card that I don't have any experience playing against.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Tsunami
2 Abrupt Decay

First draft of a white-based list (rhino centric) with an eye towards EE3 this weekend.

Nissa has impressed me as a tutorable planeswalker in Bring to Light in standard, and white fit lists have a tendency of going long enough to make her a possibility here. Plus: sun titan value.

Safekeeper may end up getting cut for a higher-impact card pending my local tomorrow. I've liked Safekeeper in conjunction with Sun Titan before, but he may not be good enough at the moment.

Abzan Charm > Truths when in junk. I'd rather have the flexibility -- I can path a Tasigur or zombie fish, but still draw cards when I need to. Or make a 7/7 sigarda.

Diabolic Intent is my 3rd Top. The idea is that it's a 3rd Top that is also a 6th sac outlet. Alternatively, sometimes it can bring together the rhino-nightmare loop. But mostly it's just a Top.

Ob Nix + Elspeths to piss off Miracles and other grindy matches. Ob Nix is on the chopping block if Nissa tests well.

[Dadadot]

I really like abzan charm. I think i will cut painful truth and replace it with charm. Which allows me to cut a path to exile.

Don't you miss spot removal like swords to plowshares or path to exile in your deck? (besides charm)
I feel like your deck is too heavy on the creature/walker side and lacks board control. But that's just like my opinion.

[Arianrhod]

I really like abzan charm. I think i will cut painful truth and replace it with charm. Which allows me to cut a path to exile.

Don't you miss spot removal like swords to plowshares or path to exile in your deck? (besides charm)
I feel like your deck is too heavy on the creature/walker side and lacks board control. But that's just like my opinion.

I focus on beating Miracles in game one. I don't like running StP/Path for that reason. Things like Charm, Decay, Council's Judgment, Pulse -- all of those are fine options, because they do more than -just- kill a bro. I might end up going -1 Safekeeper -1 Finks for +1 Charm +1 Council's or +1 Charm +1 Decay. My issue at that point is that GSZ starts looking lackluster -- before cuts, I currently have 12 non-Veteran green creatures to grab with 4 Zenith, which is a good ratio. Dropping to 10 makes Zenith look better at 3-of, and that isn't really where I want to be.

[tilzinger]

I forgot about Abzan Charm. Going to swap out the Truths for those. 1 less draw, but its at instant speed, which is huge. Reminds me of Esper Charm.

[Arianrhod]

Went 4-0 matches / 8-0 games last night at the local. Beat Miracles, DnT, Imperial Painter, DnT. I cut the Safekeeper before the event for a Reclamation Sage, which was actually pretty good on the night. I also went -1 Ob Nix +1 Golgari Charm based on fear of Elves. Otherwise, I played the list as previously posted.

Snapshot notes:

Flip!Nissa was surprisingly very good. I put it in thinking it could be real in theory, but I wasn't prepared for it to actually live up to my expectations. It served a purpose both as a borderland ranger and as a Zenith threat lategame. Flipped her multiple times on the night, and she was consistently solid. I also got to flip her one game off of bringing a land back with Sun Titan, which felt real good.

DnT is a shitty ass deck when they don't draw Revokers in any game :D

Only drew one Abzan Charm on the night, which turned into two more cards against miracles. Didn't love the card anyway, but some of that the fact that I had three dead matchups for it (DnT x2, Imperial). Their creatures are too small to exile, and you don't need the draw 2 against those decks.

Slaughtered Imperial's Painters g2 on a mull to 5. Felt real good. Also won that game.

Elspeth probably isn't necessary in the sideboard. Bringing in Slaughters, Tsunami, and artifact/enchantment removal is sufficient for that matchup since the deck is already built to beat Miracles. Those two slots are probably going to become at least 1 DnT card, possibly two. I didn't like feeling soft to DnT -- if either of my opponents had hit a Revoker and backed it with a Mom, I would've been pretty far up shit creek with only 1x Golgari Charm as an out, which seemed pretty poor. I'm also cutting the maindeck Finks (still) -- probably making it a Council's Judgment.

[Ralf]

Elspeth probably isn't necessary in the sideboard. Bringing in Slaughters, Tsunami, and artifact/enchantment removal is sufficient for that matchup since the deck is already built to beat Miracles. Those two slots are probably going to become at least 1 DnT card, possibly two. I didn't like feeling soft to DnT -- if either of my opponents had hit a Revoker and backed it with a Mom, I would've been pretty far up shit creek with only 1x Golgari Charm as an out, which seemed pretty poor. I'm also cutting the maindeck Finks (still) -- probably making it a Council's Judgment.

"Toxic Deluge" is a must as a 1-of or a 2-of depending on your list.

Some like it MD, other has a sideboard material.

I also like having a "grip" somewhere in the 75.
I can tell from experience that even if our deck is designed to "go over the top", BSK can be a f.ing nightmare (attached to an avenger for example). The corner case where you blow up BSK with deed/pulse/ what have you, followed by a therapy to get rid of it, is more likely than not a very wet dream.

By the way, how did you beat Miracle ? Sigarda + resolved deed ?

PS: Forgot about the abzan charms... Gonna test it to assess whether 3 cards > flexibility.

[Arianrhod]

"Toxic Deluge" is a must as a 1-of or a 2-of depending on your list.

Some like it MD, other has a sideboard material.

I also like having a "grip" somewhere in the 75.
I can tell from experience that even if our deck is designed to "go over the top", BSK can be a f.ing nightmare (attached to an avenger for example). The corner case where you blow up BSK with deed/pulse/ what have you, followed by a therapy to get rid of it, is more likely than not a very wet dream.

By the way, how did you beat Miracle ? Sigarda + resolved deed ?

PS: Forgot about the abzan charms... Gonna test it to assess whether 3 cards > flexibility.

Yeah, this is where I'm at after updates:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Council's Judgment

2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
1 Krosan Grip

Miracles was basically I just ground him out game one...rhino drains eventually piled up, and he spent too much time removing my threats. Nissa drew me two cards a turn for 3-4 turns, as well, before she got Council's'd. Game two I had Sigarda vs his Jace, Slaughtered his Terminuses, and he scooped.

[sdematt]

Yeah, this is where I'm at after updates:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Council's Judgment

2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
1 Krosan Grip

Miracles was basically I just ground him out game one...rhino drains eventually piled up, and he spent too much time removing my threats. Nissa drew me two cards a turn for 3-4 turns, as well, before she got Council's'd. Game two I had Sigarda vs his Jace, Slaughtered his Terminuses, and he scooped.

Yeah, and if you had Teegs it would be even crazier. Unless they have really great sequencing of cards, we are pretty favoured. Recurring Rhinos is really hard for a lot of decks to interact with.

Are you not a fan of Volrath's Stronghold?

I would use Qasali because of the exalted usage, and the fact of freakin' Inkmoth Nexus :p

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, and if you had Teegs it would be even crazier. Unless they have really great sequencing of cards, we are pretty favoured. Recurring Rhinos is really hard for a lot of decks to interact with.

Are you not a fan of Volrath's Stronghold?

I would use Qasali because of the exalted usage, and the fact of freakin' Inkmoth Nexus :p

My issue with Qasali has always been that it doesn't leave the body behind, but costs the same amount of mana. In the abstract, I agree that Qasali is the better card -- but leaving the body behind for Therapy and Intent has been notably important to me in the past.

I don't even worry about Inkmoth Nexus -- if I run into Infect, I'm probably just losing anyway. Same philosophy I have with Reanimator. I prefer to focus on decks that are a larger meta share and require less than 10 sideboard cards dedicated to beat.

Volrath's has always felt very clunky to me. I prefer Nightmare for my recursion engine...and both isn't really that good, I feel. The other issue with Volrath's is that it's a colorless land -- our spells are almost always better than our opponents', so the only games we generally lose are those games where we don't get to cast them. I'd rather have the stronger mana base than the extra utility land. The Taiga is a necessary concession to Slaughter Games being a god amongst insects, but I don't really want another land that doesn't help pay abzan costs.

My issue with Teeg is mostly philosophical. I don't like turning off my own Green Sun's, and I don't like turning off my sideboard cards. I would rather have GSZ, Tsunami, and Slaughter Games postboard than just Teeg and -possibly- cut out some of their spells. The other issue with Teeg is that locally, at least, all of the Miracles decks are still on the Karakas package. Teeg might be a bit better in the wider metagame, but I still hold to that the 4-drop sideboard cards are stronger than sometimes denying some of their spells.

[sdematt]

My issue with Qasali has always been that it doesn't leave the body behind, but costs the same amount of mana. In the abstract, I agree that Qasali is the better card -- but leaving the body behind for Therapy and Intent has been notably important to me in the past.

I don't even worry about Inkmoth Nexus -- if I run into Infect, I'm probably just losing anyway. Same philosophy I have with Reanimator. I prefer to focus on decks that are a larger meta share and require less than 10 sideboard cards dedicated to beat.

Volrath's has always felt very clunky to me. I prefer Nightmare for my recursion engine...and both isn't really that good, I feel. The other issue with Volrath's is that it's a colorless land -- our spells are almost always better than our opponents', so the only games we generally lose are those games where we don't get to cast them. I'd rather have the stronger mana base than the extra utility land. The Taiga is a necessary concession to Slaughter Games being a god amongst insects, but I don't really want another land that doesn't help pay abzan costs.

My issue with Teeg is mostly philosophical. I don't like turning off my own Green Sun's, and I don't like turning off my sideboard cards. I would rather have GSZ, Tsunami, and Slaughter Games postboard than just Teeg and -possibly- cut out some of their spells. The other issue with Teeg is that locally, at least, all of the Miracles decks are still on the Karakas package. Teeg might be a bit better in the wider metagame, but I still hold to that the 4-drop sideboard cards are stronger than sometimes denying some of their spells.

That's fair. Taiga has been good for me as well, but Miracles still being on Lossett is odd, and not what Id expect to run into at SeaTac.

How have you found Titan and Baneslayer, considering you cannot tutor them?

Sylvan is also the straight nuts in decks with this much lifegain.

Also, HBD.

[Tom4ik]

I like baneslayer even though it cannot be tutored as its just such a beating against most decks. I am less thrilled with a 6 drop that cannot be tutored. I would imagine we do not even need a 6 drop but if you do is prime time for two towers not enough? On that note I like stronghold more. This deck has plenty of colorless cost in the spells so as long as we open on 3 land (or even 2 with vet/therapy) we should be fine for colors. This also opens an extra spell slot.

I still like truth over charm. I know charm doubles as removal (I think the counters will be less used but let me know if it comes up as I have not played with the card) but drawing 3 is so much better than 2. I really think that extra card is what makes truth playable. I have been testing a bug midrange deck with truths and snapcaster mage and its the real deal. I offset the life loss with Drs and ooze but rhino is way better at it. I would honestly run 2 truth where you have charm. If your goal is just go bigger then drawing more cards lets you find your bomb cards. No reason to give up the slight versatility of charm being a removal spell when we draw cards that invalidates that creature anyway. we already have multiple deeds plus decay.

[Arianrhod]

That's fair. Taiga has been good for me as well, but Miracles still being on Lossett is odd, and not what Id expect to run into at SeaTac.

How have you found Titan and Baneslayer, considering you cannot tutor them?

Sylvan is also the straight nuts in decks with this much lifegain.

Also, HBD.

You don't have to tutor for them. You'll draw into them or Top into them (Intent) if you need one. Baneslayer and Sun Titan are just generically powerful enough cards that it doesn't matter that they can't be Zenithed up. I don't know what it would take for me to run a white nic fit without Sun Titan. I know a lot of people are like, but 6-drops D:, but primeval titan D:, but dromoka D:.....etc, but Sun Titan is love, Sun Titan is life. I usually build my lists with an eye towards him, and he always rewards my faith. Much like Primeval in Scapewish (for those who remember this discussion), Sun Titan is a card that can get you out of so many situations that you have no right getting out of that I honestly don't think I could ever cut him.

Sylvan is something that I've slowly grown fond of as a 1-of at least in nic fit, especially in junk builds with lots of life gain. The issue I had was more that I couldn't find space for the card than that I didn't want to run it. Maybe I'll put Sylvan in over the maindeck Council's Judgment. I dunno.

Thanks for the birthday wishes, Matt :)

[Echelon]

If you want to be able to tutor your random 6-drop, why not run a Fierce Empath?

Also enables the use of dredge creatures. And you can always sacrifice Empath to Intent (if you run it) or a flashbacked Cabal Therapy if you want to clear the way for said 6-drop. Nothing is worse then trying to cast your bomb, only to have it countered. Even if you miss with your Therapy, you at least know what you're up against before you can safely resolve your bomb.

[sdematt]

Because Intent tutors for Deed/Top/etc., not just your fatty.

-Matt

[Echelon]

You run Empath alongside Intent, not instead of.

[sdematt]

I misread what you wrote, my apologies.

-Matt

[Echelon]

No apologies needed :smile:.

But seriously though, Fierce Empath really is a worthwile card for this deck. Whether it fetches a "real" 6-drop like a Titan or Dragonlord Dromoka or a 6+ drop with dredge like Tasigur or Gurmag Angler. For Rhino-mana, you could also GSZ for Empath and cast Tasigur/Angler (when running Tasigur, you might value it over Rhino from time to time). The other line of play would be Empatj for a hard 6 drop (say Grave Titan, 10 power on 3 bodies is never bad) and then utilize Empath as a body for Therapy to clear a way through any counters/spotremoval (which would be more likely, if your opponent didn't counter the GSZ).

The only thing worth questioning though is would using that GSZ for a Rhino have gotten the job done as well. GSZ -> Empath might be this decks' equivalent of the Elves! "We play NO, so should we run this big green creature that might be just as good as Craterhoof but often just won't be?".

[Arianrhod]

If you want to be able to tutor your random 6-drop, why not run a Fierce Empath?

Also enables the use of dredge creatures. And you can always sacrifice Empath to Intent (if you run it) or a flashbacked Cabal Therapy if you want to clear the way for said 6-drop. Nothing is worse then trying to cast your bomb, only to have it countered. Even if you miss with your Therapy, you at least know what you're up against before you can safely resolve your bomb.

Empath is a fundamentally bad card in most versions of Nic Fit. Most versions, unless you're doing something weird/off-color, run 1 six-drop. This six-drop may or may not be green for purposes of GSZ -- each color and version tends to like different things. Here's the thing: six-drops don't tend to win games. They clear the way for your five-drops to win games (although, Rhino lists may edit that to be four-drops). Six-drops need to provide utility, not "kill you." One day, a six-drop version of Sigarda may be printed and that will change, but for now, Sigarda wins more games than any six ever has.

What this means is that you rarely want to actually tutor for your six drop, but you do want to draw into it when you can.

There's a couple of additional drawbacks to consider, too:

-) GSZing for Empath (common play) costs 4+6 to cast the creature it tutors, which means you're paying 10 mana for a 6-drop and the right to cast it.
-) Running a card like Empath with only one target is asking to get blown out.
-) Nothing guarantees the safety of the card you tutor for in your hand. In fact, it can make otherwise dead Thoughtseizes into game and match winning cards.

Now, there do exist versions for which I will agree to Fierce Empath -- basically anything running Food Chain comes immediately to mind. But am I going to run one in my solo-six-drop list? Nah. I'm good.

-edit- because didn't see your latest post. Getting Tasigur is kind of adorable, and I could see doing that. I'll note that I do have a couple issues with Tasigur as well -- notably that you can rarely get rid of all of the garbage and use him to actually draw powerful cards -- but being able to immediately play the "6-drop" that you fetch is strong. Still not something I'm going to do for my version, but it's worth remembering that trick. Good eye.

[Echelon]

@Arianrhod: I get what you mean when it comes to Tasigur. On the other hand, I've also had enough games where Tasigur returning a PtE to my hand won me the game. Or a silly Dredge opponent returning Diabolic Intent to me only for me to Intent for RiP, lol. Admittedly, since my games usually go "Wreck stuff -> drop Tasigur -> wreck more stuff -> drop/cheat giant nuke on the field" Tasigur actually doing something good from time to time kinda turns into a self fulfilling prophecy.

Even then, one could run Gurmag Angler over Tasigur. Whilst only a vanilla 5/5 it can help break symmetry vs. an opposing Tasigur/Rhino/Tarmogoyf or help anwer an opposing Angler. But as with Tasigur, your other points concerning Fierce Empath still stand :smile:.

[sdematt]

Karakas is still a card, as we can see. Nice Tasigur ;)

I'll be trying this this week:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
16

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
9

2 Abzan Charm/Truths
3 Abrupt Decay
5

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vraska (since it does kill Jace...)
4

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Learning Center
5

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
22

2 Grip
2 Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Your list is totally back to the way it was Pre-Cruise when I decided to try Rhino, so let's give it a shot and see.

If I were running Jund back again, I'd try:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Primeval Titan
15

4 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
13

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
11

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run
+ 16 others
22

2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
+6

Arguments to be made about jamming Liliana in here, of course.



-Matt

[Echelon]

Karakas is still a card, as we can see. Nice Tasigur ;)


Don't I know it. The number of times I've had GSZ/Empath/Tasigur in my hand whilst staring at a Karakas, lol.

Does help you clear out your graveyard incredibly quick though.

[Blastoderm]

There's quite a few Lands in my meta.. (the GR one that can combo really fast).. how do you guys deal with this? I feel like putting blood moon in my sb...

[Tom4ik]

@Tasigur. I ran him when he first came out and he is almost just a beater. Karakas is back now that DnT can beat Show and tell again. I wouldnt run a delve guy or empath unless its part of some combo kill. If I had a delve creature I would prefer Stalker as 5 power flying is better than a ground pounder and worth the mana.

@Bloodmoon. I ran 2 in my jund list and it is good but lands will bring in decay/grip so be prepared to also turbo out a thrun or titan. It is also basically only a card I bring in for lands/post. Even against decks like delver where it is good do NOT bring it in. It will screw you more times than save you. We win as long as we can cast spells.

@Vraska. This is not a good card. I did run a Garruk PH in my jund list and for a 5 mana walker it is better than vraska.

[Blastoderm]

@Bloodmoon. I ran 2 in my jund list and it is good but lands will bring in decay/grip so be prepared to also turbo out a thrun or titan. It is also basically only a card I bring in for lands/post. Even against decks like delver where it is good do NOT bring it in. It will screw you more times than save you. We win as long as we can cast spells.



Yea saving it only for lands (+ dark depths variants) and cloudpost is what I had in mind.

[Dadadot]

My experiences with abzan charm:
- the +1+1 is a nice tool for when you need fast a clock (i like to run one strangleroot geist as a secret weapon and a 4/3 or 5/4 with haste can be nice. It's good as a clock, can suprise kill a planeswalker and works well with phyrexian tower and diabolic intent if needed)
- the toolbox effect allows you to cut other spells for tighter build
- the one less card draw isn't too bad if you combine it with sensei or if you considee that if you really need to find the answer with the third card you are most probably fucked anyway.
- people seem to be trigger happy when it comes to countering abzan charm so you can easily bait them with charm.

[maharis]

I've been experimenting with Depths, Stage, Knight, Primetime recently over the SFM/Skull/Dryad package from my last list:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=907021&viewfull=1#post907021

With Truths, SDT, GSZ for your land-finding bombs... it's not so hard to assemble the combo, and it does help you out of jams.

Haven't had a ton of time for any real testing, but something to consider, I think.

[Blastoderm]

My experiences with abzan charm:
- the +1+1 is a nice tool for when you need fast a clock (i like to run one strangleroot geist as a secret weapon and a 4/3 or 5/4 with haste can be nice. It's good as a clock, can suprise kill a planeswalker and works well with phyrexian tower and diabolic intent if needed)
- the toolbox effect allows you to cut other spells for tighter build
- the one less card draw isn't too bad if you combine it with sensei or if you considee that if you really need to find the answer with the third card you are most probably fucked anyway.
- people seem to be trigger happy when it comes to countering abzan charm so you can easily bait them with charm.

Instant speed is also pretty important for the card draw mode (truths is a sorcery).

[HoneyT]

Hey all! It's been awhile!

Just stopping by to say a quick hello. I imagine I'll see some of you in St. Louis and Seattle/Tacoma very soon!

I'll give some thoughts when I get home to my computer.

[jbone2016]

Went 3-1 with Ari's list (with a few minor tweeks). Beat d & t in 3 (grindy games as usual), goblins in 2, merfolk in 3 (kept a one land game one) and then lost to Tom play non-Vet Bug.
On the meadery's stream the last 2 matches.

I'm hoping to get some more testing tomorrow (barring my car being a giant pain)

[Tom4ik]

I went 3-1 with just a Bug midrange deck. I have kind of bailed on Nic fit for a bit because hymn is a hell of a card.

I played against Jbone on the meadery twitch. (if I knew they would show me every week maybe I would play more explorers haha) and beat him in 2 games that were surprisingly not very close. I think he definitely had outs but drew not that great. I think my match up was pretty bad unless I stick Jace.

I played 2 painful truths and I can honestly say I think it is actually wrong to be on charm. Unless people are actually using the other modes greater than 50% of the time truths is just better. Instant speed is not a real thing in a sorcery speed tap out deck like junk/jund nic fit. We have decay/CJ along with sweepers in the form of deed and deluge. 3 mana limited removal is already a bad deal (CJ hits jace which is big game) and unless the +2 counters is really relevant (and lets be honest are they really?) it is worse. I would take the card over the instant/+2/removal aspect but that IMHO.

[jrw1985]

Went 3-1 with Ari's list (with a few minor tweeks). Beat d & t in 3 (grindy games as usual), goblins in 2, merfolk in 3 (kept a one land game one) and then lost to Tom play non-Vet Bug.
On the meadery's stream the last 2 matches.

I'm hoping to get some more testing tomorrow (barring my car being a giant pain)

I want a rematch!
Really though, I wish those games were on camera because I'm pretty sure I played really poorly and want to see where I went wrong. It's like I couldn't commit to a line of play and just durdled until you got the Deed G2. Regardless, I think I should have been attacking more. Baneslayer kept me form attacking profitably because of lifelink so i really needed to focus on killing it so I could start turning my guys sideways.

[Navsi]

So I''m taking Scapewish (again) to a tournament this Sunday. I have a few reservations though- I'm worried there's going to be a whole lot of Sneak and Show and similar stuff, which means I probably shouldn't be playing Tasigur due to the likelihood of him meeting Karakas repeatedly. This is what I'm thinking of taking:

2 Valakut
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bayou
2 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Scapeshift
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dualcaster Mage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang (probably going to change this into something. Maybe another Deathrite, Huntmaster, or some other lategame value topdeck like Ob Nixilis, Reignited).

Sideboard:
3 Slaughter Games
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Scapeshift
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Twinflame

(This sideboard needs Massacre I think. Might cut the Twinflame, but I like it as a backup combo that functions completely differently with regards to counters- gets past Blood Moon, Leylines, Teeg, etc. and actually goes infinite). Maybe I should move the third Abrupt Decay to the maindeck for Massacre, and drop Tasigur or something similar?

[sdematt]

Went X-0 playing this list (testing against various Delver flavours, Miracles, BW Leylines (wtf...), ANT, and DnT.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons


16

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
9

2 Abzan Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sylvan Learning Center


2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
22

2 Grip
2 Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist


I enjoyed the list. I tried Ari's list with Baneslayers and such, and it was slow. Powerful, but against the 4C delver variants that attack your development, you have real trouble. Stifle is a big card against us. I cut Baneslayers, Sun Titan, and Thragtusk and added back Scooze. I have fewer creatures, I agree, but they do just fine. I'd love to have the 2 Baneslayers back, but not sure what to cut again.

Intent was good again, but didn't always fire it off. Nightmare did work as it once did. Paths felt very necessary in fending off early threats (I cut Baneslayers for them), so I want to still keep them. Abzan Charms were always used to draw cards except once as removal, and once for counters. I'll be keeping them instead of Truths, for now.

Elspeth was good. Maindeck Deluge was excellent since no one expects it. I like it better than Deed many times since it is faster and you rarely care about the life loss. Sylvan won SO many games. So, so many. One was fine in testing, but before the main event, I just jammed one more and it performed very well. Many times we're sitting with lots of lands and nothing to do, or, lots of life and nothing to do. Sylvan helps to smooth the early progression and bury your opponent in cards, and the lifeloss being offset by STP on Rhino and the Rhino trigger itself is excellent. It does poo-poo with Deed, but if that's the kind of problems you have, that's a first world problem.

All in all, I want to play Baneslayer in a Legacy deck, as with Thragtusk, but leaning towards the shy end of the curve plays a little better when you don't get to live the Explorer dream.

[Echelon]

Switch a Forest out for a Dryad Arbor. Your manabase'll be fine whilst making your Diabolic Intent so much better. You're incredibly short on stuff you'd want to feed to Intent, turning your fetches into Intent food is a wonderful thing once you hit the mid to late game. It'd allow you to maintain whatever board presence you have at that point while trading that silly land you drew for a Sylvan Library or that one sideboard card you need to obliterate your opponent :smile:.

[jbone2016]

Well, I finished dead last. 0-4. Won one game. Played in a side and went 2-2.

[sdematt]

Your list? Let's hear what happened.

-Matt

[Tom4ik]

Sorry for the poor result. What were the matchups? You did well on wed (though 3 vial decks does seem a little lucky haha) so I was hoping to see some vet on camera.

[Bjorn The Jesus]

Took this pile to SCG St. Louis this last weekend:
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Siege Rhino
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan

3 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath

SIDEBOARD:
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Ethersword Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun the Last Troll
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Krosan Grip

Went 5-4, with my losses being to Miracles twice (once being Joe Lossett), Merfolk twice, and shardless bug at the very end.
The first Merfolk loss was more due to mana issues, g1 I ended up with about all my lands in play, no action. G2 I never made it past 2 lands. The other merfolk match went better, one game had 5 rhinos, most being images, G3 went to time, he had lethal the last turn possible.
I have no idea how to play against Miracles, I haven't played in about a year, so Mentor took me by surprise.
The Shardless match I kind of just threw in the towel to go watch my buddy who was doing real well play, probably could have won it though.

All in all, I wasn't too disappointed with my performance, and I got a lot of compliments on the deck.

[Krzysio]

m building a 4 color deck for New Jersey. I still need some help tweaking it but its been doing well for now

3 veteran explorer
3 DRS
1 ooze
1 e wit
1 nissa, vastwood seer
1 reclamation sage
4 siege rhino
1 huntmaster
1 thragtusk
1 tasigur
1 dragonlord dromoka

4 gsz
4 cabal therapy
2 thoughtseize
1 senseis top
3 abrupt decay
2 pernicious deed
2 kolaghans command
1 maelstrom pulse
1 recurring nightmare
1 garruk relelntless

1 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
1 savannah
3 bloodstained mire
2 windwept heath
2 wooded foothills
1 kessig
1 phyrexian tower
1 volraths stronghold
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 mountain

Sideboard
1 boil
2 disfigure
1 thrun
1 obsinante baloth
1 gaddoc teeg
2 surgical
2 golgari charm
2 pyroblast
2 slaughter games
1 krosan grip

do you have any suggestions. I was thinking of taking out huntmaster for courser of kruphix, and tasigur for some other green creature so all my creatures are green sunable. as for sideboard i dont know if i have all my bases covered or should tweak it around

[Tom4ik]

First, lose nightmare and one of your 3 mana removal spells for 2 more tops FOR SURE. You can debate the exact cuts but this deck needs 3-4 tops. I also am loving truths in my bug decks but YMMV.

[pettdan]

@Krzysio: Here are my comments, for whatever it's worth.

I agree with Tom4ik, tops are crucial in my experience. Or library manipulation in some form.

Next I would be very tempted to run Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard. You're packing a ton of expensive creatures, getting them into play should be a top priority I guess and Carpet of Flowers can do just that. And on that topic, Courser seems very relevant in helping ensure land drops so that seems like a good idea.

[jbone2016]

Your list? Let's hear what happened.

-Matt

3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Council's Judgment

2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Abrupt Decay
1 E. Plague.
1 Krosan Grip

Pretty sure this was the setup for the main event.
Round 1: Lost to Sneak/show. Get blow out game one. Brought in: 2x TS, 2x Priest, 2x Slaughter Games, 1 Grip, 1 charm.....keep a hand with one fetch, 2 therapy, 2 GSZ, a priest and Dromoka. Blind name a show and tell and hit. I don't draw another land until turn 4 and die quite quickly.

Round 2: Lost to Infect in 3 games. He stifles my deed to push thru with an inkmoth for lethal. I land a plague on humans and have a clock so we go to a 3rd game. I land a plague on elves but he crop rotates into a nexus and kills my thru an azban charm with a daze (which I knew about when he tried to daze my decay earlier). 2nd card down on my top was also a k grip.

Round 3: Merfolk. Actually the same guy I beat on Wed at Mead. Mull 5 game 1 and keep a 5 land.....yep. Not getting thru. I don't therapy on turn for vial.....which he has. Then drops a cage on turn 2. I'm very sad by then.

round 4: Esper Control splash red for Ajani Vegent: I get snap countered three times in a row game 1. Game 2, I flood pretty hard while he keeps up Ajani and has a Strix for my Sigarda.

In the side event, I changed the charms to 2 paths, cut a Rhino, nightmare and something else for the 3rd decay and 2 painful truths

round 1: I get steamrolled by mono-red sneak attack (which my buddy got 16th with in the main event)
Round 2: I beat BUG control with a Nissa Ultimate (I was showing off at that point). I think I won that one in 2 games.
Round 3: Lost to miracles in 3. I get game one, but mentor beats get me 2 and 3.
Round 4: Beat Leylines in 3. I die turn 3 first game. I board in TS just in case no leyline of sanc. Get Teeg out and he scoops. Game 3, I get Teeg out again....but he doesn't scoop and I don't attack with him since he has open mana. Later had a containment priest. Rhino gets there for the finish.

Props: Nissa was good again. I'm wondering if I should have a 4th basic forest just for her flipping. Painful truths was sweet in the BUG/Miracles matchup.
Slops: 23 lands/tribe elder/nissa: Feels like too many lands at times. Not convinced about the splash for games. Maybe another witness in the board for grindy matchups.

I still want to play this is Seattle but....my friends mono-red sneak attack is so shiny.....

[sdematt]

I'll be there on Friday to convince you. Alcohol may or may not be involved.


-Matt

[Arianrhod]

Mostly sounds like shitty variance. Cutting one land for a Top or Sylvan is probably okay, since those cards help make land drops. If you felt like you were heavy on 23 then we shouldn't get dicked on 22.

[sdematt]

I play 22 and it feels good.

[sdematt]

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons


16

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
9

2 Abzan Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant/Sorin LOI
4

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Sylvan Learning Center


2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
22

2 Grip
2 Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist

Thinking about cutting the Stronghold for the Dryad and adding in another Fetch, we'll see. Love me the utility, though.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

1 Volrath's Stronghold
...
1 Dryad Arbor

Thinking about cutting the Stronghold for the Dryad and adding in another Fetch, we'll see. Love me the utility, though.

Both of them are already in there, no?

[sdematt]

However you want to cut it, the Stronghold would go, Dryad would come in/stay in, and you add the Fetch.

-Matt

[Echelon]

If you can't fit the Arbor in the manabase, you could always switch a DRS for a Dryad. DRS is there mostly as a lightning rod/GSZ target anyway.

[Tom4ik]

I think when a deck plays veteran explorer DRS becomes less of a need. When you are gsz you mostly want to get a vet anyway. I agree with running only 2.

I love stronghold but I like it more when you have a titan that searches it up. fetching arbor is nice with recurring nightmare though...hmm.. No bstorm to put it back isnt great if you do draw it. Idk, I dont hate it but I dont think I would run arbor. Now if Nissa said find a forest not a basic forest I would really like it.

I would run 1 less sylvan and 1 more top. Better in multiples Though from your posts I know that card is a pretty big love for you and it is amazing against miracles (and against shardless should it stick for a turn).

I would still recommend truth over charm. On that note, Jbone, I know we talked a bit about it last week before you went to SCG and you played 2 tournies with a swap of those card. Any thoughts? I am looking to see how much actual utility the other 2 modes provided you because unless we start to have some data on that I think its hard to know. Either way I think having a 3 mana draw spell is great for this deck.

I also do not totally love needle in the board. I think many times where we want needle deed will also be involved. I would rather not have the situation ever come up.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hey y'all: debating on coming back to Nic Fit as soon as I'm done building a few Modern decks (Podless Pod and Tasigur Twin to be exact). Thinking of going with a Pod+GSZ route this time while also bringing in some tech from my Podless Pod list via a singleton Taiga and Slaughter Games.

Let me know if y'all see any issues with the maindeck so far:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Birthing Pod
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

[Echelon]

You're playing Veteran Explorers. Change those StP's for PtE's. No need to give your opponent free life in a deck that durdles as much as Pod Fit.

[Whitefaces]

I land a plague on elves but he crop rotates into a nexus and kills my thru an azban charm with a daze (which I knew about when he tried to daze my decay earlier)

Decay is still a legal target for Daze, it just doesn't get countered. I guess you let him take it back?

[Paranoid__Android]

Is there a Abzan Rhino ''default'' decklist (with sideboard list too) to bring in a unknown metagame/legacy tournament? :D

[Ralf]

Is there a Abzan Rhino ''default'' decklist (with sideboard list too) to bring in a unknown metagame/legacy tournament? :D

Depends on how big you wanna go.... :cool:

1) Arian's list is very heavy on big fatties.
2) Sdematt's list is a bit less heavy on fatties.
3) Mine is more "midrangy" (with no recurring tools) & very "grindy" with a better G1 against most combo decks.

Pick up the one you like the most.

My list can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=905974&viewfull=1#post905974)

[tilzinger]

I haven't been playing much lately, but this is what I'm running (http://deckbox.org/sets/1058269/export). I don't have Catacombs so my fetches aren't ideal, but it gets the job done. The 2 Hymn to Tourachs and Recurring Nightmare are kind of up in the air and recently added back, so haven't tested with them. I had 2 Restoration Angels originally, and the first match I played after adding them I was able to keep a Rhino alive in response to a removal (I think it was a StP), 6 point life swing then he conceded b/c I was going to swing in for lethal next turn. Seemed legit.

I'm basically trying to figure out what the last 3-4 MD cards are (Angels, Hymns, Nightmare, another Truths?)

[Tom4ik]

tilzinger, what cards are you looking for your mana base that you dont have? If you play in a tourny I am at I may/should have fetches available depending.

Also, run 4 gsz and also run 3 tops minimum. I really do not understand why people are posting with less than 3 tops. Even with library I would still run 3-4. This deck is already fairly high variance and top is the best way to solve that without picking up blue. The hands that have top never look the most broken but they are the ones that have the most staying power.

[ironclad8690]

Just 3-1'd a daily event with this:

http://i.imgur.com/woe8ISY.jpg

I don't know what I should change.

Round 1: Grixis Delver 2-1
Round 2: Storm 2-0
Round 3: Storm 2-0
Round 4: Miracles (MzFroste, who doesn't lose ever, so that's ok) 0-2

Vs Miracles he just countered everything game 1 (I had to be proactive so he didn't just entreat kill eventually), game 2 I accidentally shuffled away a tsunami when his board was just islands, but he was playing at flash speed with Cliques and Entreat so it wouldn't have mattered, he had countermagic up the whole time.

[sdematt]

Why are ou on STP and not PTE?

Congrats on the finish!

[Ricardio]

Also full list would be appreciated since its cut off. Nice job. Too bad the miracles pulled off a.....miracle. Yeah!

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Not to detract from ironclad's performance (good job btw), but StP is better than PtE against basic heavy decks (including Miracles if memory serves me right).

Now that my inner Kanye has said his piece, Miracles at it's heart is the classic Draw-Go control. Playing proactively is the last thing you want to do since that's how they want you to play anyway: best bet with your list game 1 is to stick any creature during the first few turns (if a Veteran Explorer, do not pull the trigger of course) along with a Deed for Entreat and give them death by papercuts. If they go to StP or Terminus, just stick another. Jace is problematic of course, but the threat density of Nic Fit matched against Jace's grindy win-con means you could very well use the max hand size and end step of your turn to sculpt your hand/library to be filled with threats to seal the deal.

[Tom4ik]

I understand why ppl like path over stp but I would still probably run swords anyway. These new rhino versions of nic fit are trying to be more aggressive so maybe I am just thinking in the past but life is not really relevant in many matchups where another land "could" be.

If you have both stronghold and tower out you can also beat a jace ultimate. Especially if you have something like tusk to recur that leave a body. I have not done it often but I have beaten jace ultimates. A few times due to this and once by having all four punishing fires and like a million mana. burnt him out from 17. Had to win in my upkeep but whatever....

[tilzinger]

tilzinger, what cards are you looking for your mana base that you dont have? If you play in a tourny I am at I may/should have fetches available depending.

Also, run 4 gsz and also run 3 tops minimum. I really do not understand why people are posting with less than 3 tops. Even with library I would still run 3-4. This deck is already fairly high variance and top is the best way to solve that without picking up blue. The hands that have top never look the most broken but they are the ones that have the most staying power.

I run 1 b/c I only own 1 :) I have 2 more on my Christmas list for my wife to get me.

Thanks for the offer with the lands. I have neighbor who would let me borrow some Verdant Catacombs if I really needed them.

[ironclad8690]

Here is the full list:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top (I want to go up to 4)
3 Swords to Plowshares (I just didn't remember Path to Exiles advantage in this deck, been awhile since I played it so I just defaulted to STP, next time I'll try that instead)
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tsunami
2 Krosan Grip
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg

[sdematt]

Because if you're trying to Rhino drain them, why give them life? Especially when giving them more lands doesn't matter. You're activating Veteran Explorer - they likely have no more lands in their deck anyway, so it's quite literally a free RFG target creature. STP puts you behind if you're on Rhinotime, and we discussed this about a year ago already.

Against Miracles, that slot is dead anyway. You don't keep STP or Path in, and Veteran is hot garbage in that matchup anyway, which is one of the reasons I've been debating on 3 or 4 Veterans, since I'd rather have DRS.

Overall, I think we're all on similar pages. Rhino is good, and so are Rhino loops.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Oh, and wanting to go up to 4 Tops? What you actually want is Sylvan, Deed be damned. You don't truly know power until you Ancestral Recall, going down to 24 life.

-Matt

[jbone2016]

Did much better tonight at Mead. Went 3-1

Beat an unusual punishing fire pod deck. I paid 9! life to draw 3 cards (Ruric thar was in play) to hit my karakas to bounce him. Sigarda ftw. Priest blew him out when he sacced his finks with pod.
Beat shardless BUG in 3. Nissa top decked very well for me here to draw a deed to reset the board in game 3.
Beat elves in 3 (on camera). I get smashed game one. I get him with canonist and rhino and a 2nd deed game 2. Game 3, mull to 5. Keep therapy, vet, bayou, priest, top? Ended up getting a canonist and flashed in the priest when he tried to gsz for rec sage. rhino beats ensued.

Lost to storm in 2. Mulled to 6 both games looking for interaction. Whiffed on therapy both times. (First time on LED, second game was dark ritual, I believe he had cabal both games)
Maybe a third thoughtseize in the board, perhaps.

[sdematt]

Rhino's a tank, yo.

Saddle's waitin'.

-Matt

[Echelon]

Lost to storm in 2. Mulled to 6 both games looking for interaction. Whiffed on therapy both times. (First time on LED, second game was dark ritual, I believe he had cabal both games)
Maybe a third thoughtseize in the board, perhaps.

Hmm, when facing ANT I usually name Infernal Tutor as a first card. They can have all the mana in the world as far as I care as long as they can't do shit with it. For TES, I'm not so sure what to name first. Might also depend on who's on the play.

[sdematt]

I also always name Infernal. Against TES maybe it's B. Wish? Not sure.

-Matt

[Echelon]

I also always name Infernal. Against TES maybe it's B. Wish? Not sure.

-Matt

Yeah, that's the problem with TES - they run both, since the printing of Dark Petition each as a four-of.

[Ralf]

Interesting discussion.

I usually blindly name LED against storm because it is their best shot to kill you T1/T2.
Infernal Tutor is only third, after Dark Ritual.

The reason is twofold:

I have beaten ANT a few times just because my opponents could not empty their hands in due time to cast IT or reach threshold to generate massive mana with their Cabal Ritual

These sole reasons is why I always name LED against ANT / Dredge. Time is key.

If I remember well, Arian is a proponent of naming Dark Ritual first.

I would like to hear your arguments by any mean.


Still, I hate playing against Storm...Bad matchup.

[Tom4ik]

Playing path after a vet goes off is good. I understand that. There will also be games that come up against midrange decks where your removal will be path and having to path a sfm or drs may be worse than stp. I understand your argument and am not saying path is strictly wrong but I do not think its as cut and dry as you say. Maybe not playing rhino I do not realize that getting ppl down to the point that a swords life gain is a big deal, idk.

The right amount of tops is probably 3. That is the amount I played when I was on punishing fire. Library is great, a card that can take over in some matchups. Deed nonbo is not the entire reason I do not recommend playing more than 1 its that I honestly think that top is a better card. Especially if you are playing truths or charm there is only so much life you are going to pay for cards. Top allows for multiple tops in a turn that can and will come up when you sandbag fetches. agree to disagree I guess.

[sdematt]

The amount of life I pay for cards per game, on average, is likely over ten life. I typically recall with the earliest Sylvan trigger unless I hit sweet nothing. Rhino offsets and STP are real cards that help you out.

You close much MUCH faster with Path. I think the amount of times Path puts your opponent over the edge are far outweighed by the games where you need to close with Rhino drains, or the drains put your opponent in awkward situations where they can't attack/have to leave blockers/tramplers suck balls for them.

-Matt

[Blastoderm]

Interesting discussion.

I usually blindly name LED against storm because it is their best shot to kill you T1/T2.
Infernal Tutor is only third, after Dark Ritual.

The reason is twofold:

I have beaten ANT a few times just because my opponents could not empty their hands in due time to cast IT or reach threshold to generate massive mana with their Cabal Ritual

These sole reasons is why I always name LED against ANT / Dredge. Time is key.

If I remember well, Arian is a proponent of naming Dark Ritual first.

I would like to hear your arguments by any mean.


Still, I hate playing against Storm...Bad matchup.

If I was holding extirpate however, I'd name Infernal Tutor first.

Edit: It's been over a year since I've played Nic Fit (due to stupidities like DTT and TC). Here is my current list:

Creatures (18)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Noncreature (19)
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divinging Top
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abzan Charm

Lands (23)
1 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15):
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroblast
2 Extirpate
2 Slaughter Games
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Blood moon

I went 2-1-1 last tournament beating RUG, UR Delver-Burn, drawing with Lands (g3 I had a blood moon in play) and losing to shardless. Shardless is usually a good matchup but losing to double hymn isn't surprising (My opening hand would have been an auto-win until it disappeared). The deck felt strong. Abzan Charm is a bit clunky... I'll continue to test it as it performed well despite it's high cost.

[jbone2016]

Went 2-1-1 tonight at another local shop.

Beat Lands in 3, somehow.
Beat Burning Wish Omni in 3 on a mull to 5 game 3 (kept a rec sage in my opener)
Drew with the knightfall deck. Couldn't find a threat in time game 3.
Lost to infect in 3. Get turn 2'd for 9 with double invgorate AFTER a blind hit one.

Board is currently:
1 Thrun
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Containment Priest
2 Slaughter Games (finally got some use of it vs omni-tell)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night

maybe a third seize....maybe a blood moon or 2.....not sure

[Ralf]

Hello,

Here is my latest BUG control Fit list.

I'd like to throw another wasteland. If anyone has any idea, please share.


1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Grave Titan
2 Baleful Strix
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ponder


SB: 1 Thragtusk
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize

[Dadadot]

Looking for a two drop abzan creature which preferably should be fetchable with green sun. I already got gaddock main as a one of. I'm thinking about strangleroot geist (because i love this creature) but maybe there is something with more utility or another hatebear. Mainly i am searching for a two drop with some noticable impact.

Thanks for help in advance.

[Blastoderm]

Looking for a two drop abzan creature which preferably should be fetchable with green sun. I already got gaddock main as a one of. I'm thinking about strangleroot geist (because i love this creature) but maybe there is something with more utility or another hatebear. Mainly i am searching for a two drop with some noticable impact.

Thanks for help in advance.

Scavenging Ooze is always good post-deed. There's also qasali pridgemage but Reclamation Sage is better.

[jbone2016]

Looking for a two drop abzan creature which preferably should be fetchable with green sun. I already got gaddock main as a one of. I'm thinking about strangleroot geist (because i love this creature) but maybe there is something with more utility or another hatebear. Mainly i am searching for a two drop with some noticable impact.

Thanks for help in advance.

Wall of Blossoms? Scryb Ranger? Skyshroud War Beast seems amusing at times.

For punishing fire builds.....have we used kavu predator before?

[sdematt]

Depends what you mean by Rec Sage being better. I think it's minor to be able to hold it until your turn, or just be useful as an exalted-giver until you need to blow it. Not being able to kill Inkmoth is huge in that matchup, and Qasali is better against Sneak.

Up to y'all.

-Matt

[tilzinger]

Yeah, someone will have to convince me why Rec Sage is better in a Junk build. Its the same amount of mana with either one to destroy something, and Rec Sage can only be done at sorcery speed. Qasali can sit on the board and destroy something at instant speed. Plus the Exalted trigger can be relevant.

[Tom4ik]

The argument is that Rec sage will leave the body around. Where QP will leave play the sage will let you have a body that can be relevant with things like equips and therapy in the deck.

That being said I like pridemage a lot more.

[Arianrhod]

It's also not entirely unreasonable to run both. Having an extra answer to early stoneforge equips, counterbalances, more ways to fuck with miracles' tops, attrition mirror sylvan library, etc. Sometimes you'll run into a matchup where you don't want either of them, but that's what sideboarding is for.

[pettdan]

This new card is a very flexible Burning Wish target for e.g. a Punishing Fit list. Care to destroy Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman, a hoard of tokens and Liliana? Or just go for a Jace and a Batterskull?

A bit hard with RRR in the cost when coupled with Burning Wish, and it may turn out to be too expensive to be a viable option. It can be compared to Kolaghan's Command which can also bolt and kill artifacts among other things, but in instant speed which is a huge deal in many matchups (thinking of Death and Taxes where you need to cast it in response to Rishadan Port activations). I think I'll get one just to try it anyway.

http://mythicspoiler.com/c15/cards/fieryconfluence.jpg

Edit: I thought I had it yesterday but at least now the image is appearing.

[Ricardio]

So I've been playing 4 rhino fit and I have came to some conclusions:
Moar Skillerhino, moar better
Gaddock is main board. Five-ever.
3 vet, 3 Drs seems right.
Shard less is rough especially now they run 4 wastes.
Ajani, mentor could be the card we need. Not the card we deserve.
Nightmare might just be too cut especially when the meta is quick and full of decay.
2 deed could be my next try.
2 path seems right.
cat wizard over Rekt em elf.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Nightmare might just be too cut especially when the meta is quick and full of decay.


Are you suggesting they can Decay the Recurring Nightmare?

[Ricardio]

Cute*

I am saying that many times, playing it and passing is what I'm left doing. It makes it vulnerable. I'm gonna cut nightmare and look at other options. Most importantly, Dragonlord dromoka. More than likely a sigarda as well.
I don't think the meta is slow enough for us to hop on the night(mare) train. ;)

My sideboard is also like 13/15 for combo which is more than likely wrong.
3 slaughter
3 surgical
3 duress
2 hymn
1 chains
1 dryad militant
1 golgari charm
1 cant remember.

Junk fit with a taiga 3 Drs, mind you.

[Ricardio]

Just 3-1'd legacy daily MTGO with Skillerhino Fit

2 path
4 therapy
3 vet
3 DRS
2 top
1 teeg
1 pridemage
1 scooz
3 abrupt decay
3 deed
1 e-wit
1 pulse
4 Skillerhino
1 garruk, primal
1 Ajani, mentor
1 sigarda
1 thragtusk
1 DL dromoka
4 GSZ

4 windswept
2 wooded
1 delta
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrub
1 Taiga
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
1 karakas
1 volrath

SB:
3 surgical
3 Duress
3 slaughter games
2 carpet
1 dryad militant
1 golgari charm
1 thrun
1 chains

2-0 Maverick with depths

Not much to say regarding this. I'm the bigger brother and the parents arent home.
Actually brought nothing in. Perfect 60.

1-2 ANT

Game 1 i rip GSZ off the top for teeg, Sheep42 gets salty and says my gg was harassment. I thought it was ironic.
Game 2 i die turn 3, my turn 2.
Game 3 he turn 2s me through a duress.

2-0 Rug Delver

Game 1 he did rug delver stuff and then lost to a DL dromoka . Side note: HAHAHAHAHAHA
Game 2 Carpet catches force. deed gets goyf delver. rhino and ajani clean house.

2-0 Miracles (this was abysmal, my opponent wasn't slow but good god was the match painful)

Game 1 took for all but 5 minutes of my clock. so much deed and entreat posturing. finally drs widdled him down and then he didn't have the counter for a Skillerhino to deal the final 3. I can't lie, it felt good.
Game 2 I had to win in 5 minutes. Games on terminus into Skillerhino into Skillerhino.

Good enough for 3-1

Changes?
SB: charm never came in. not sure what else can go in the board.
MB: Not sure. I know its not perfect but I do not know what to change.
PS: Cabal Therapy is the best discard spell in magic. 4 or go play DnT.

Im gonna run it back next chance I get and think about possible changes
The deck felt good and does hilarious things. I beat an opponent tonight who cast 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder, i still won. Ban Skillerhino?

Let me know if you have any criticisms or questions.

[Ralf]

2-0 Rug Delver

then lost to a DL dromoka

.

It seems that your list is missing DLD.

[Whitefaces]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12193886_10153083290847273_852822542080230221_n.jpg?oh=78d99dae26e1bbae29adfa759b416723&oe=56CCE66E

Pretty sure we can do something with this! Doesn't get hit with bolt or decay, GSZable and gives nice card advantage.

[Ricardio]

It seems that your list is missing DLD.

Sorry. I fixed it.


When is the new commander set on mtgo?

[dave78pdx]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12193886_10153083290847273_852822542080230221_n.jpg?oh=78d99dae26e1bbae29adfa759b416723&oe=56CCE66E

Pretty sure we can do something with this! Doesn't get hit with bolt or decay, GSZable and gives nice card advantage.

Yes! I ran over here to check this thread as soon as I saw that card on Twitter. I need to get my Nic Fit deck assembled again and give this card a whirl. Seems like a 1-of for now. Too much other stuff going on in my current list. Could really synergize with Tasigur, but the odds of getting both of them out at that same time is not great. I have noticed an increased number of Karakas being played in response to Tasigur, as well.

[Arianrhod]

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12193886_10153083290847273_852822542080230221_n.jpg?oh=78d99dae26e1bbae29adfa759b416723&oe=56CCE66E

Pretty sure we can do something with this! Doesn't get hit with bolt or decay, GSZable and gives nice card advantage.

I like this card.

Nic Fit has had a lack of strong (green) 4-drops in general for quite a while -- red has Huntmaster and everyone gets Thrun as a 1-of, but beyond that you have to start looking at ObBaloths or Master of the Wild Hunts (which both have their places, but they're not generic powerhouses -- they only work for specific versions).

The biggest issue I have with him is that you need to have things to get back with him. DRS is a good one at one (or even just getting back more Vets to get more lands). Once you hit 3 counters, if he lives that long, you can start doing nutty things. The problem is the 2-spot. The (ostensibly) best 2-drop we have unanimous to all versions is Scavenging Ooze. BUG versions get Strix, which seems absolutely fucking nutty with Meren -- white's Teeg doesn't do much here, but Qasali is gas (note that this card existing is a reason to consider Qasali > RecSage). Red just goes and cries in the corner.

I just realized that he gives YOU the counters (do they go in the command zone, I guess?). That actually makes this guy really insane -- we run Nightmare (and/or Volraths) anyway, so even if he doesn't stick around for more than a counter or two, we can always bring him back and keep ramping it up later on.

Overall I think he's a shoe-in for bug lists with Strix -- Red probably won't touch him since they have Huntmaster for competition and tend to run fewer creatures in total anyway. White could certainly run him, but it's probably 50/50. Some people will, some people won't; which is fine.

--edit--
LOL JACE VYRN'S PRODIGY
--back to your regularly scheduled day--

[dave78pdx]

Being a Junk Nic Fit player, I'll chime in on that one... Grabbing back Stoneforge Mystic to grab Jitte/Batterskull (increased odds of having both out, too). Bringing back Qasali Pridemage would be awesome against some decks. Once this baby gets rolling, returning Siege Rhino to the battlefield could be a real backbreaker.

EDIT: Another thought I just had... Bringing back Eternal Witness and effectively getting a two-fer off of it would be fun.

EDIT #2: Bringing back Flip Jace in a BUG list... LOL thats sick!

EDIT #3: Could this card have addtional synergy with Birthing Pod versions of Nic Fit? You have to sac a creature with Pod to fetch another dude, that will help you ramp your experience counters. The progression in converted costs of dudes you sac to dudes you fetch with Pod could lend well to the addtion of the experience counters. (Not to mention, Birthing Pod getting banned in Modern was the reason I started playing Nic Fit in the first place.)

[Barook]

@Arianrhod: Meren is a she - just saying.

I like her synergy with the Junk shell, especially with Pridemage, SFM and Rhino around, although BUG with Baby Jace and Strix also sounds good.

[Memories of the Time]

Today of all days i was thinking about Nic Fit with Evolutionary Leap.
Meren seems nice there =D

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod: Meren is a she - just saying.

I like her synergy with the Junk shell, especially with Pridemage, SFM and Rhino around, although BUG with Baby Jace and Strix also sounds good.

Ah. Couldn't tell from the art, didn't read the article.

Rhino synergy is obviously insane if you can get her there. Doing so without something like Bitterblossom / Lingering Souls + sac outlet is likely going to be challenging, is all. If you can get her to 3 and you're not immediately dead, you've won the game. How exactly you choose to execute the win at that point is up to you and the board state, but if Meren is unchecked at 3 counters for any extended period of time, the match slip is a formality. You'll literally bury the opponent in cards and value.

Stoneforge is kind of reasonable I guess, but I don't think it's quite as insane as popular opinion seems to think. I could be wrong -- I haven't run SFM in nic fit in a very long time. It was average at best when I last tried. Meren + SFM is only really relevant for Bskull -- we'd run out of equipment to fetch very quickly (2 triggers, 3 at the most?).

[tilzinger]

I already want to replace my Recurring Nightmare with this, which has been lackluster because its a non-tutorable singleton (unless I use my Diabolic Intent on it). Being GSZable is the best part of this card.

[dave78pdx]

Yes, being Zenithable is the best part. I almost want to run 1x Meren and 1x Recurring Nightmare in the deck just so I can try to slam as many Rhinos on the field as I can.

[apple713]

He seems great

Zenithable
Cant be decayed
You the player get the counters so with multiples he can create a powerful engine thats nit easily disruptable.

I think if i read him correctly he can be ised to get counteres quickly with eldrazi creatures that put sacrifical tokens into play.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think the biggest perk is that even if you don't have enough experience to reanimate target creature card in your graveyard, you can still Disentomb that card.

[Arianrhod]

I think the biggest perk is that even if you don't have enough experience to reanimate target creature card in your graveyard, you can still Disentomb that card.

Yeah. I actually missed that on my first read though of the card. This thing is the real deal.

[dave78pdx]

Yeah. I actually missed that on my first read though of the card. This thing is the real deal.

LOL yeah... I did the same thing... Get so excited about the first part of the card that you miss the second part of it. Reanimate or Disentomb a dude at your end step. Zenithable. Survives Perncious Deed, Abrupt Decay, and Lightning Bolt. Yeah, solid card. The only bad thing about it is there's no foil version. :tongue:

[pettdan]

It looks very interesting, I agree. Seems like she could be played in a pair with Courser of Kruphix to provide varied GSZ-able card advantage engines. Courser helps pulling extra lands out of the deck during the first 5-6 turns (when coupled with an SDT). During later turns there may be a couple of creatures in the graveyard and Meren becomes the obvious GSZ-target.

[Myelectronicdays]

cant wait to try her out.. i think def would replace recurring nightmare.. atleast to start.

[jbone2016]

Man....why could this have came out two weeks ago.....

[dave78pdx]

Man....why could this have came out two weeks ago.....

Would have been nice to have these new C15 cards available for GP Seattle. At least, maybe, they won't be as hyped or overpriced like the C14 sets were last year leading up to GP New Jersey.

[Ricardio]

Ran back the same list today in the 11 pm daily with changes
-1 DL Dromoka
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
SB: -1 Golgari Charm +1 chains

Round 1 Miracles (MzFrostie)

Game 1 was him landing a mentor and then having force for the deed to follow it up with 2x top combo.
Game 2 I mulled to 5 and got run over by entreat for 4.
SIDE NOTE: miracles is a truly abysmal deck to play against. its so slow and top doesnt make it any faster.
0-2
Round 2 Omni-tell (Franzk)

Game 1 I did nothing and then his showed in that stupid 10 mana enchantment that lets him cast emrakul
Game 2 i drew sideboard and Skillerhino'd him to the ground
Game 3 He landed omnisience and then 5 cantrips into another. I went SKillerhino into Skillerhino while he bricked
Moral: 2 Skillerhinos > 2 Omniscience
2-1
Round 3 Shardless

Game 1 im glad no one else watched this game. MY buddy is on skype watching and he said it looks unwinnable.
Game 2 I slaughter ancestral. Skillerhinos into the fray.
Game 3 Super attrition based as per use. I break serve with Sun's Champ. he pulses. i ajani making them 2/2s. he deluges. I play Skillerhino and make it a 7/8 for the concession.
2-1
Round 4 Four Badland Goblins (Dronny) He called it Kiki and the happy hungry bunch

I don't really wanna talk about this. He ran me over like a small child in the street and then gave me the win because he was 1-2 and I was 2-1.
I dont know if you guys think this match up is fine but its F**kin not.

Sideboard needs work and Miracles needs to be neutered.

I am super excited about new commander card and i anticipate it being exceptional.

[sdematt]

With Needles, Grips, Games and pressure, I haven't had a problem with Miracles, but that's not to say the deck isn't excellent.

-Matt

[Ricardio]

What do you suggest I do to the sideboard?

Beating miracles is a necessity on mtgo.

I'm gonna keep running the deck and hope I continue to do well.
It's fun and I hope I can contribute as much as possible to improving this deck.

[Tom4ik]

My personal recommendation for playing against Bug decks would actually be to leave things like slaughter games at home. The match is generally about playing to the board. Games would sometimes be useful but I do not think its worth the card.

Miracles is tough but beatable. Sdmatt is right that needle and grip are huge gets. Turning off top is rough for them. Instead of carpet you could run choke. It is better to just play lands and threats and while carpet allows you to ramp it is not too needed in that matchup. I have never been a fan of carpet because I feel most of the matches you want it either are already favored (rug delver) or ramping is wasting a card (miracles). Slaughter games is also a giant beating for that deck.

[Ricardio]

So I will cut a thrun and 2 carpet for a grip and 2 choke. Ideally, helping my poor matchups.

Otherwise, I will reevaluate the mainboard such as trying to fit in thrun.

In the meantime, I'm gonna tweak modern esper mill. Not sure why I find it so enjoyable.

[rubblekill]

Hello.
I'm kinda new to this deck, can any gentleman here explain to me what's the best version (GB, red splash, white splash) against combo AND miracles?
The strategy of this deck seems a lot of fun

[Themucher]

What matchs do you people find yourself siding out veteran explorers? Goblins, miracles, and DnT maybe elves are the ones I can think of, also maybe burn but want your guys opinion?

[Tom4ik]

@Rubble - Imo the Blue splash is the best at combo. You get access to Fow which is a good get, and in the version I was playing you also have g-probe to help on therapies. I also ran Snapcaster mage as well. Bs is a big get obviously as it helps find the SB cards like surgical. I didnt hate my miracles matchup either because I just drop vet and become a Bug control deck with Jaces and Snap caster but more threats in thrun and tusks. I also had 2 CTP.

@Themucher- I side vets out against Miracles and sometimes cut a few against certain blade decks. Otherwise you need them. You want them against DnT and Goblins because you need the mana to deed them or drop your bigger threats. I also leave them in as you want to keep the idea of vet therapy hands which opens your deck up to beating most of those decks.

[Ricardio]

@Rubble - Imo the Blue splash is the best at combo. You get access to Fow which is a good get, and in the version I was playing you also have g-probe to help on therapies. I also ran Snapcaster mage as well. Bs is a big get obviously as it helps find the SB cards like surgical. I didnt hate my miracles matchup either because I just drop vet and become a Bug control deck with Jaces and Snap caster but more threats in thrun and tusks. I also had 2 CTP.

@Themucher- I side vets out against Miracles and sometimes cut a few against certain blade decks. Otherwise you need them. You want them against DnT and Goblins because you need the mana to deed them or drop your bigger threats. I also leave them in as you want to keep the idea of vet therapy hands which opens your deck up to beating most of those decks.

@rubble - junk plays hate bears like teeg. Bug plays counterspells and such. Jund plays blasts among discard and games. The miracles matchup is interesting. Slaughter terminus to remove their largest out and then flood the board. Deal with Jace asap. Jund has punishing fire to deal with Jace but junk can just cast moar Skillerhino moar better. Slaughter games, discard, surgical and chains are all good against combo and often times miracles.
Side note: slaughter games naming top turns the miracles deck into a magickarp in the middle of the street. They can only dodge cars for so long until one hits them or they die to lack of oxygen.

@themuncher - I agree with him. Basically any deck that plays a lot of basics and will contest you. Omnitell can be added to that list. In nic fit mirror, it depends what version the combatants are on because some versions use mana better and benefit from a larger pool like jund. Therapy is the best discard spell in magic which is why I have been thinking about adding a lingering souls or sorin, lord of innistrad to the deck for more consistent flashback. I personally run 3/3 vet Drs split because junk doesn't need the mana jund appreciates.

[rubblekill]

Thanks a lot, you are very kind 😃
What about the straight GB version with hymns? To me the list that caleb d. posted in the early 2015 seems the most consistent with more decays, deed, pulse, hymn..It only lacks rhinos

[Ricardio]

Thanks a lot, you are very kind 😃
What about the straight GB version with hymns? To me the list that caleb d. posted in the early 2015 seems the most consistent with more decays, deed, pulse, hymn..It only lacks rhinos

I feel that the power for consistency exchange is very poor. By giving up the third color, you close yourself off to near inifinite potential. Skillerhino and huntmaster are absurdly powerful cards. I think that two colors compared to 3 is excessively less fun as well. Casting elspeth Suns champion in legacy brought me much happiness and getting a rug delver player to concede with DL dromoka on the stack was priceless.

[rubblekill]

I feel that the power for consistency exchange is very poor. By giving up the third color, you close yourself off to near inifinite potential. Skillerhino and huntmaster are absurdly powerful cards. I think that two colors compared to 3 is excessively less fun as well. Casting elspeth Suns champion in legacy brought me much happiness and getting a rug delver player to concede with DL dromoka on the stack was priceless.

I agree with you on the fun factor, but gb offers quite the threats as well (tusk, g. Titan, titania, thrun). Im thinking of assembling a straight gb list with a really light white splash for a nice sideboard (hate bears and maybe an e. Tutor board?). There is plenty of removal tools even w/o path to exile, and i think rhino is not much better than the other gb threats. Probably im wrong.
Plus I love hymnin' people

[Bobmans]

I agree with you on the fun factor, but gb offers quite the threats as well (tusk, g. Titan, titania, thrun). Im thinking of assembling a straight gb list with a really light white splash for a nice sideboard (hate bears and maybe an e. Tutor board?). There is plenty of removal tools even w/o path to exile, and i think rhino is not much better than the other gb threats. Probably im wrong.
Plus I love hymnin' people


I feel that the power for consistency exchange is very poor. By giving up the third color, you close yourself off to near inifinite potential. Skillerhino and huntmaster are absurdly powerful cards. I think that two colors compared to 3 is excessively less fun as well. Casting elspeth Suns champion in legacy brought me much happiness and getting a rug delver player to concede with DL dromoka on the stack was priceless.
Straight GB has it strength's. In raw power GB can be an absolute monster. Running maindeck Hymn, more walkers like Garruk PH and even Tarmogoyf can become options. Or how about Grave Titan along with Recurry. It's not for nothing that a good year ago one of the NicFit decks to show up in top8's was straight GB. In the end, every NicFit variant has its pros and cons. There is no best like described in the OP. NicFit is both skill intensive and meta dependant. You can play soo much variaty of cards in NicFit it is just absurd. Tuning it perfectly is near impossible and some matchups are a nightmare regardless of variant.

[Ricardio]

i do not believe the GB version is stronger but the consistency can be perceived as strength. I say, for all the new nic fit persons, find the list that intrigues you and mold it not only to your meta but more specifically your play style and your preference because this archetype is like no other. You can show your personality through your 75.

[Arianrhod]

If you're sideboarding Slaughter Games (which I recommend), bring them in against combo decks and miracles, and basically nothing else. If you happen to run into bugstill, slaughter is fine since their only real wincon is jace -- take that away and they cry. For Shardless, though, Slaughter Games stays in the sideboard, for sure.

I'd generally recommend something like the following for a sideboard atm:

white:

3 Slaughter Games
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tsunami
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

blue:

3 Slaughter Games
2 Krosan Grip
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

I have no thoughts on red versions at this time.

Generally speaking, if you want to beat miracles, you need 8 sideboard cards, of which 3 are Slaughter Games. If you're not currently splashing Games in your white or blue versions, I recommend it -- it improves miracles and combo, which are two things that you want to have cards to beat, and Slaughter is the best you're going to get. All it takes is a Taiga and some Deathrites.

So yeah. You want to sideboard out 4 Vets 4 Therapies and bring in 3 Slaughter + 5. For white, you bring 1 Tsunami, 2 Elspeth, 1 Decay, 1 Grip. For blue, you bring 2 Grip, 2 Glen Elendra, 1 Decay.

The plan is basically the same regardless of which version. You disrupt their Tops with Decays, Deeds, and Grips -- it's critical to remember that you can destroy their Top in response to a fetchland and force them to get rid of it. You don't want to be without your own Tops in this matchup, plus Deed is actually really important here because it keeps Mentor at bay, as well as CB locks, EoT Entreat garbage, and random bullshit enchantments -- both of these are reasons I don't like Needle, at least for this matchup.

So, attack their Tops. Aside from that angle, you also board in a couple of extra threats at the 4-spot. 4 is rather hard for them to CB naturally, and it becomes almost impossible for them if you Slaughter Jace TMS on your first Games (which is what I usually do). White brings Elspeths to provide a steady stream of pressure while being very hard for them to effectively answer, while blue offers Glen Elendra, who is a tremendous pain in their ass for obvious reasons.

And then, the Slaughters.

I personally go for their win conditions. Jace first, then either Mentor or Entreat depending on the board state and how you think they sideboarded / what their list looks like.

It's also possible to attack their protection instead -- Slaughter Terminus, then StP -- sometimes they just implode under your superior threat density if you do that. For this plan, a lot depends on how game 1 went. If you were able to squeak out game 1, then attacking their win conditions is almost always correct -- by denying their ability to win, you ensure a match win even if you go to time. If you lose game 1, the situation depends on how much time is left on the clock. If it was a long game 1, then attack their protection. If it was a short game 1, then I think that attacking their win conditions is still more effective overall. It also depends on how bomb heavy your particular list is. There's a lot of factors.

tl;dr:

-4 Vet, -4 Therapy, +3 Slaughter Games, +2 bomb, +3 screw with your Top cards. Season to taste.

On Meren:

I do not think that cutting Nightmare for Meren is correct. Nightmare is still the stronger card in a void, and the two actually work together fantastically well. I would rather have both in my list, and it's not particularly close. Meren makes Nightmare better, and vise versa.

[Ricardio]

Sb for tonight's daily barring a revelation
3 duress
2 surgical
2 canonist
1 chains
2 choke (different versions for max tilt)
1 grip
3 slaughter
1 tsunami

I already play 3 pw mainboard so I felt two more in the sb was unnecessary.

[Arianrhod]

Sb for tonight's daily barring a revelation
3 duress
2 surgical
2 canonist
1 chains
2 choke (different versions for max tilt)
1 grip
3 slaughter
1 tsunami

I already play 3 pw mainboard so I felt two more in the sb was unnecessary.

Yeah, if you have them main, then that's fine.

I would probably replace the Chains with something else, though -- you want an 8th for Miracles to make a clean sideboard in/out, and Chains is kind of a weak card imo. You look soft to Elves as well, but I'm not sure how much of that deck there is on MODO because of the dexterity required. How many Decays are you on mainboard? If not the full 4, then siding an extra copy wouldn't be the worst.

Engineered Plague would be a good splash between Elves and Miracles that I would recommend considering.

[Ricardio]

I can see engineered over chains. I will try it if I have time.

[Ricardio]

Another legacy daily with this hilariously awesome deck

2 path
4 therapy
3 vet
3 DRS
2 top
1 teeg
1 pridemage
1 scooz
3 abrupt decay
3 deed
1 e-wit
1 pulse
4 Skillerhino
1 garruk, primal
1 Ajani, mentor
1 sigarda
1 thragtusk
1 Elspeth, Sun's
4 GSZ

4 windswept
2 verdant
1 wooded
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrub
1 Taiga
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
1 karakas
1 volrath

SB:
2 surgical
3 Duress
3 slaughter games
2 ethersworn canonist
1 tsunami
1 grip
2 choke
1 engineered plague

Round 1 Reanimator (Oarsman - Joe Losset)

Game 1 he starts slow. I see he is on reanimator so i run 2 rhino into dazes to resolve the gsz for drs. e-wit rhino back. Skillerhino and active DRS draw the concession
Game 2 His draws were poor. I had discard and failed to maintain priority to pop top and draw duress to eliminate all his outs. PUNT. he missed on his one outer and I win with DRS and Skillrhino. (Dynamic Duo)

2-0

Round 2 ANT (Monkeyscantcry)

Game 1 he probes me and i know he laughed out loud bc i had nothing going. we lose fairly quickly.
Game 2 I get to therapy and fb with vet for 3 cards and cast canonist. i got 2 c rit and a decay. Next turn i slam tsunami for 2 sea and 1 island. hes left with mire and swamp. Skillerhino crashes in. GAME.
Game 3 I mull to 5. t2 canonist and then he duress's my choke so my deck says, yo ric, heres another canonist. slam a rhino, playing around the massacre (Basedgod Karakas), We win after he mini-tendrils to live off petal, led, tendrils.

2-1

Round 3 RUg delver

Game 1 mull to 5 die with 4 lands in play and 2 5 drops in hand, he has t 0 force for vet into delver blind flip
Game 2 mull to 5 again, t 0 force for vet again, t1 delver into blind flip again. 2 more delvers. bs flip them revealing submerge to put scooze back on top
the mulligans were not risky keeps, they were 1 nonbasic 7s and no land 6s. I hate when variance and mtgo sht all over my face.

0-2

Round 4 Sneak and Show

Game 1 he had t2 snt for emrakul. no karakas in sight
game 2 he has t3 sneak. i get it with pdmage. lose board to emrakul. he runs cantrips into snt and emrakul while i draw lands

0-2

2-2 overall. seriously got fked by mtgo and variance. deck was fine when i wasnt on my knees receiving the variance D.
SB was very strong. may run the deck again in the daily at 11 aka about 2 hrs 40 minutes.

feedback is appreciated.

[rubblekill]

Smashing with rhinos seems fun 😊
A few questions: why 0 grave titans? It fills a similar role to sigarda but its better imo (no gsz tho).
Knight errand seems better than sun champion (cheaper + pumps creatures).
Ajani seems weak? I might be wrong but I'd rather play something else

[Echelon]

Smashing with rhinos seems fun 😊
A few questions: why 0 grave titans? It fills a similar role to sigarda but its better imo (no gsz tho).
Knight errand seems better than sun champion (cheaper + pumps creatures).
Ajani seems weak? I might be wrong but I'd rather play something else

Apart from GSZ, Sigarda can't be hit by spot removal, which is a thing. Also, evasion. Besides, why bother with Grave Titan when a cheaper creature also fills the intended roll? That's the danger of cool stuff, which this deck is incredibly susceptible of.

[Ricardio]

Smashing with rhinos seems fun 😊
A few questions: why 0 grave titans? It fills a similar role to sigarda but its better imo (no gsz tho).
Knight errand seems better than sun champion (cheaper + pumps creatures).
Ajani seems weak? I might be wrong but I'd rather play something else

Skillerhino is very strong.
Sigarda is good against spot removal and lily. Grave Titan can't be GSZ'd for.
Knight errant is good but i want something to just win the game and thats what suns champ does.
Ajani has been quite exceptional. make 4/5 drs or 7/8 skillerhinos is amazing. not to mention finding for gas and in most matchups, the ult gives you more than enough time.


Apart from GSZ, Sigarda can't be hit by spot removal, which is a thing. Also, evasion. Besides, why bother with Grave Titan when a cheaper creature also fills the intended roll? That's the danger of cool stuff, which this deck is incredibly susceptible of.

100% agree with this man even though i feel i am currently guilty of it. :D

[rubblekill]

Skillerhino is very strong.
Sigarda is good against spot removal and lily. Grave Titan can't be GSZ'd for.
Knight errant is good but i want something to just win the game and thats what suns champ does.
Ajani has been quite exceptional. make 4/5 drs or 7/8 skillerhinos is amazing. not to mention finding for gas and in most matchups, the ult gives you more than enough time.



100% agree with this man even though i feel i am currently guilty of it. :D

You have a point about the titan..im not convinced on those walkers yet.
No love for titania? With fetches and arbor she can be devastating

[Echelon]

100% agree with this man even though i feel i am currently guilty of it. :D

Dude, I cheat Griselbrand/Iona/Emrakuls into play with this deck so you're probably not as guilty as you could be :tongue:

[Ricardio]

You have a point about the titan..im not convinced on those walkers yet.
No love for titania? With fetches and arbor she can be devastating

main variables are meta and play style. i like the pw and they havent been bad so im gonna play them.
Titania requires set-up and devoted spots like sylvan safekeeper


Dude, I cheat Griselbrand/Iona/Emrakuls into play with this deck so you're probably not as guilty as you could be :tongue:

Ok, maybe im not on your level yet albeit i saw a bug nic fit pw list splashing red for p fires and nico bolas. My junk wiggled a bit on sight.

SIDE NOTE: I am 4 forces from bug fit to complete the nic fit base set on mtgo.

[Echelon]

That is pretty kinky. Makes you wonder if the list ran Ugin as well.

Seriously, part of me died a little bit when I realised I couldn't cheat Ugin into play via Summoner's Egg. The child in me wanted to do it so badly.

Edit: Speaking of the danger of cool things - Meren of Clan Nel Toth. 4 CMC Bolt & Decay-proof, Zenithable CA engine (especially when you have some experience counters) or a 4 mana lightning rod that has to survive until your endstep to do anything (ie. for that price we'd rather have a Rhino)?

[Nithkar]

Hey lads, long time no post. On the Meren discussion, on what page are you guys at: including on current builds or dedicating a specialized brew (with more creatures, intent, and fleshbag marauder)? I think her will be a one off in any build we already have, but maybe she's powerfull enough to be a 2, 3 of in a build dedicated to abuse her.

Enviado de meu XT1225 usando Tapatalk

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Just had an epiphany in regards to making combo matchups a bit easier game 1, and I think going for a quick Therapy into Vet followed by the Kitchen Finks infinite life combo from Modern can seal the deal against most lists ... or at least buy enough time to further stabilize in the case of Show&Tell and Elves. Funny thing about Legacy combo decks is that most don't win as (infinitely) big as Modern decks :P

Something like this for Junk ... maybe?

4x Veteran Explorer
3x Deathrite Shaman

1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Siege Rhino
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Primeval Titan

1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Varolz, the Scar-Striped

4x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize

4x Pernicious Deed
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Path to Exile

4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Diabolic Intent
3x Sylvan Library

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold

You would still have to worry about OmniTell, PainterStone, and RIPHelm, and the pieces themselves only provide minor utility individually.

[Echelon]

And how long would you want to spend assembling that combo vs. TES/ANT..? 3+ turns..? Oh, wait...

[EpicLevelCommoner]

And how long would you want to spend assembling that combo vs. TES/ANT..? 3+ turns..? Oh, wait...

:/ my bad ... well, the idea was to buy time with discard before assembling the combo to seal the deal. My problem with storm in the past isnt necessarily how fast they win, but rather finishing the game before they recover.

Might be better as a SB package now that I think about it.

[Ricardio]

I understand where you are coming from but I believe that is a different deck. Also, infinite combos on mtgo are not a thing if they don't kill.

Meren seems fine. I will try as a 2 of initially. The value and Fact it dodges decay and bolt is huge.

[Dadadot]

What do you guys think about boarding out Recurring Nightmare in an Abzan Fit (the list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/funky-rhino/)). I seem to rarely need it. It oftentimes seems like a win more thing too. Also I find it very seldom.
I was thinking of two option: Either highlight it with more ways to tutor it or just exchange it with some other glue for the deck.

[Ricardio]

What do you guys think about boarding out Recurring Nightmare in an Abzan Fit (the list (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/funky-rhino/)). I seem to rarely need it. It oftentimes seems like a win more thing too. Also I find it very seldom.
I was thinking of two option: Either highlight it with more ways to tutor it or just exchange it with some other glue for the deck.

No pulse or paths ?? 2 e wit is a lot. Only 1 bayou?
Nightmare is either mainboard or not in the 75 imho since you are already doing a lot of graveyard stuff.
I think nightmare is only really good in the bug pod lists.

[Dadadot]

No pulse or paths ?? 2 e wit is a lot. Only 1 bayou?
Nightmare is either mainboard or not in the 75 imho since you are already doing a lot of graveyard stuff.
I think nightmare is only really good in the bug pod lists.

Duals partially bc budget partially bc wasteland (i like a relatively stable manabase)
I really don't like pulse (i think it takes more skill and discipline to play that card than i currently posess) but i think often about including it. I will try it.
I like to imagine the two abzan charms fulfill the role of paths (while being flexible in matchups where i don't need a path, also no basic for opponent).

What do you think makes nightmare such a strong card in bug pod lists?

[Bosque]

I would guess because Birthing Pod chains dump more stuff into the grave that recurring for value is more of a sure thing with the BUG pod lists, than with GSZ based lists.

[Lhet]

Another reason Nightmare is so good in BUG Pod because of Baleful Strix. There are lots of situations where the graveyard isn't very crowded, and having a strix around lets you start pulling ahead.

[Ricardio]

BUG nic fit pod is just value. you literally value your opponent out of the game like shardless but with creatures and cute sht.

[Lhet]

Suppose I'll post my GP Seattle writeup. I had no byes, and barely missed day 2 by going to time on the last round (so 6-2-1, officially 6-3 as I conceded, but had we continued playing I most likely would have won for 7-2 and day 2). Not terribly bad given that I hadn't really even looked at legacy for a few years prior to registering to the GP last month.

The deck (List is mostly this (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18203&iddeck=137585)):
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Scavenging Ooza
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Trinket Mage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Minister of Pain
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

2 Abrupt Decay
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Gitaxian Probe
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Birthing Pod
3 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

SB
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Envelop
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Notion Thief
1 Krosan Grip
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


R1 Rug delver (L 1-2) - Won game 1 even though I made a really stupid mistake (Nimble Mongoose has shroud even without threshold...). Game 2 Stifle + Wastelands meant I didn't get to play. Game 3 I got locked pretty hard by winter orb (not something I expected). Was close to stabilizing after an Engineered Explosives, but I was low and he topdecked a bolt.
R2 Burn (W 2-0)- The player was pretty new. Didn't seem to be running searing blaze, made mistakes such as immediately showed me his hand when I cast Cabal Therapy.... (didn't actually matter though, as I knew one card and had the flashback ready anyways).
R3 Reanimator (W 2-1) - G1 lost really fast to a turn 2 Griselbrand. G2 and G3 I managed to get GY hate with counter backup. G3 I landed a quick Nihil Spellbomb. He actually ended up reanimating my Deathrite, which was entertaining. 2-1
R4 BUG Delver (W 2-1) - Recurring nightmare did some work.
R5 Sneak and show (W 2-1) - G1 was a bit unfortunate for him, he was a bit unlucky searching for the second piece, and Cabal Therapy did enough disruption to get him pretty low. Eventually he managed to find a show and tell for Griselbrand, but I just outclassed him with a Grave Titan, and he didn't have the life to recover. G2 lost to a T1 Griselbrand, G3 the SB did enough work and won pretty easily.
R6 Reanimator (L 0-2) - Lost a long G1. Might have been winnable if I was better at the matchup. G2 I probably should have mulliganned, I kept a hand with only one piece of hate and it wasn't enough.
R7 Miracles (W 2-0) - G1 was long and complicated, he had active tops all game, but I was able to land a Birthing pod through Top+CB, and then disable CB with Reclamation Sage (and another one later with Decay). Would have actually lost if I didn't EE on zero the turn before winning, (he had EOT entreat for 5). G2 I Krosan Gripped his only top, and he laid down a blood moon that I hadn't been watching out for in my fetches. Was able to beat his followup Jace with Redcap+Phantasmal+Therapy Flashback, and slowly ground out a win with a couple Deathrites and a Strix.
R8 Burn (W 2-1) - G1 was lost pretty quickly. G2 was won on the back of a jitte. G3 was stabilized with Deathrite, then locked up with self Cabal Therapy for Thragtusk then Recurring Nightmare.
R9 GBW rock? (Goyf, Liliana, Confidant, Thalia, Stoneforge, Discard, Wastelands, etc.)(Draw) - G1 couldn't deal with a goyf fast enough and got wastelanded and such. G2 Had a rough start, but got a good enginereed explosives followed by Birthing Pod, then worked up to Thragtusk to close out. G3 went to time: I avoided a quick equipment-based loss with Therapy, then was beaten down to as low as 1 from thalias/deathrite drain, while he drew 4 or so extra cards from an unanswered Confidant. Managed to stabilize by Explosives then Deed, but time was called. I'm pretty much certain I would have won had the game gone longer, as I had secured a Birthing pod and turned Redcap into Thragtusk, and top showed me I would have drawn a Recurring Nightmare the next turn (Which would almost certainly secure the win in a few turns even through his Batterskull and any answers he could draw). I ended up conceding though; a draw means nobody gets in, he didn't really look like he was ready to concede, and there was a judge sitting there so debating would have been hard. I keep on thinking back on it and it still feels really awkward, I don't really know what to do in that situation. The next day I won FTV Angels and cubed, so I suppose things kinda worked out.

Overall seems to be a perfectly viable deck, I could most likely have performed even better if I had more experience with the format and the deck. If I made changes I'd start with swapping out the Notion Thief and possibly Jace from the SB: neither really did much even when I sided them in. The main seemed pretty solid, I wouldn't make significant changes there for a while.

[crush]

Did anyone try Daxos's Torment from Commander15 in Junk Rhino builds? I looked very promising on paper during spoiler season - a 5/5 hasty flyer for 3B which "dodges" sorcery removal and kills Jace on the spot.

I tried him as a 2 of and think of going up to three with 3 Rhinos and 1 Sigarda of the top end cards, going down to 21 lands. Between him and Rhinos the deck is capable of closing games veeeery fast.

Other enchantments in the deck are 2 Deeds, 1 Library, 1 Recurring Nightmare and 1 Courser of Knuphix (used mostly to awaken Torments with GSZ)

[Echelon]

No. Staring at a 4 mana enchantment that does nothing N turns in a row sucks the big one. Might just as well smash face with a Rhino and close out the game. Sure, the enchantment might do 5 to the face the first turn (if it connects) but the Rhino creates a 6 life gap between you and your opponent when hitting the field, even if it gets hit by instant speed removal.

[crush]

While this is true, the N turns do nothing is not to be taken so lightly.

(Ideal scenario) Play Torment, next turn play another Torment = then you are only 5 life points away from winning a game.

Also, a 5/5 haste creature does a lot to save you from a Jace lock, which happens every game against miracles (from my limited testing).

[Echelon]

Next turn, play another Torment equals 15 damage at best. You're still 5 short and suddenly without a clock. And you've been assuming your opponent doesn't have instant speed removal or the ability to block/Maze of Ith your critters. And that's your most ideal scenario.

[crush]

I never claimed that a resolved 4 CMC enchantment/creature would end the game there and then.. nevermind.

[Echelon]

I never claimed that a resolved 4 CMC enchantment/creature would end the game there and then.. nevermind.

Yeah, you did :wink:.

[Ricardio]

I am of the mind that any threat that cannot be gsz for has to be absolutely absurd to have a spot in this deck. The conditional activation makes me want to look another way for threats. I can understand wanting a 5/5 flyer but baneslayer is just better or even tombstalker. I want to rely on my threats. Tusk, sigarda and rhino are more reliable than a herpes outbreak bc you know what they are gonna do and they will do it when ever they can. Personally, the only card I see making any change for us is meren. I will never play less than 4 physical Skillerhino because it's too strong so my 4 spot may get dicy but I'm not too worried. Meren looks pretty amazing so much that I may go up a karakas.

[crush]

Yeah, you did :wink:.

Fixed.

[Echelon]

I lol'd :laugh:. Anyways, I'm in the same camp as Ricardio. And I'm really looking forward to Meren. Although I'm not sure yet where to put it in my own degenerate, crazy ass build. Space is already way too tight as it is.

[Ricardio]

I will undoubtedly cut elspeth since she's the insane card in my 60. From there I may try to find space for a second meren at which point I will go to 1 plains for a second karakas. I am worried that meren needs support like lingering souls to be effective.

[moseby]

Daxos's Torment could be interesting. Throw in some Academy Rector's, and see where it goes. I could definitely see a one of Archtype of Endurance that you could rector for, or live the dream and get Omni.

[sdematt]

The new 2GB Raise Dead guy is definitely going in. I cut Recurring Nightmare for the tournament since there was so much Delver with Pierce and Stifle in the room...

I played this to a 4-3 drop finish:

4 Veteran
2 DRS
1 Ooze
1 Witness
4 Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Decay
2 Path
2 Deed
2 Deluge
1 Truths

2 Sylvan
3 Top
4 Therapy
4 GSZ

22 Lands (both towers, no Karakas nor Arbor)

2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Needle
2 Grip
2 Golgari Charm
2 Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
1 Thrun, the Last Troll.

Explanations in next post.

[sdematt]

Cut the cuter stuff on the advice of friends to max out on efficient stuff. Truths showed up often and was insane. Much better than charm at drawing cards aince you always have removal.

Sigarda is the best threat you always want. Everytime I had Sigarda except when I hardcast it as a desparation play, I won. Ill start playing two.

Quick Liliana is hard to beat, especially in Shardless where they clog the board. Jace is also a problem. I wouldnt mind an unblockable creature.

Qasali pulled weight the entire tournament, and instabt speed was always relevant. Leaving a body behind was not in this build.

Losses were to Shardless BUG nutdraws in 2 games, losing to ANT, and a loss due to bad draws against deathblade (Eric had a deck of which the pimp was quality like mine).

I beat Esperblade, Grixis, Maverick, and I think Sneak/Omni. Board felt good.

[Ralf]

How were deed and deluge MD ?

I'm still convinced sweepers are not needed MD with our new draw spells.
Sylvan + Truths ( 1/3 or 2/3) have been enough in my testing.
Nevertheless, I found Sigarda to be not enough against shardless. She does shut down liliana until they found toxic. And usually this is when it comes really hard for you to come back. 7/8 Goyfs are a pain.

I found Batterskull + Jitte to be great against BUG strategies. A rhino/sigarda equipped is a nightmare to deal with.
However, I'm not sure we need to play SFM.
BSK can easily be Thragtusk's slot and jitte a sweeper's slot.

[Ricardio]

I have not done any testing with sfm so I will have to try that at some point along with truths. I wanna go down to 2 deed but I love the card waaaaay too much. I am currently at work, itching to tweak the deck.

[Ralf]

I have not done any testing with sfm so I will have to try that at some point along with truths. I wanna go down to 2 deed but I love the card waaaaay too much. I am currently at work, itching to tweak the deck.

That's the beauty. I don't think we need to play SFM, just equipment.
The surprise factor is even greater.

Not to mention that it transforms any late squirrel into a freaking beast.

[Ricardio]

That's the beauty. I don't think we need to play SFM, just equipment.
The surprise factor is even greater.

Not to mention that it transforms any late squirrel into a freaking beast.

How are the equipment better than planeswalkers? Cost the same. Both effect the board differently but no one runs destroy planeswalkers cards outside of judgement and pulse. The value is immediate upon resolution. Ajani makes 4/5 Drs. Garruk shts out beasts. Suns champion creates an army and then gives them all red bulls for the win.
Without sfm, equipment are meh.

[Ralf]

How are the equipment better than planeswalkers? Cost the same. Both effect the board differently but no one runs destroy planeswalkers cards outside of judgement and pulse. The value is immediate upon resolution. Ajani makes 4/5 Drs. Garruk shts out beasts. Suns champion creates an army and then gives them all red bulls for the win.
Without sfm, equipment are meh.

No they don't.
I'm not denying the power of PWs.

But overall I think BSK survivability is beyond the PWs you are naming.

You forgot that PW can be attacked into and die to bolt + punishing fire. Jitte dies to AD.

Anyway, we could list the benefits of both during days.

Ajani / Garruk = 10 CMC
Elspeth = 6 CMC

BSK+Jitte = 7 CMC

Without mentioning the color requirement for Garruk and Elspeth, there is already to my taste a world of difference.
But you might be right as far as SFM is concerned. A two-of might be needed to push the "no-no" comparison even further.

I think some of the posters, here, (no offense intended) are missing the key point here:

I'm trying to get the best value for each Nic Fit deck and I'm not trying to argue with every choice that is being made...

I don't get the general feeling of playing overpowered cards turn 10 with 7 or 8 basic lands into play. Any kid can win a game/match by jamming Karn, Ugin whatever huge beast he has chosen against the right matchup.
What is harder, I think, is to play a very well constructed 75 Nic Fit deck which has balanced matchups against a wider/unknown field.

And gentlemen, THIS has still yet to be achieved (and not once, save maybe Jund Fit which has one of the best record of all time).

I wish someone (better deck builder than I would ever be) can prove me wrong. /barn

[Ricardio]

No they don't.
I'm not denying the power of PWs.

But overall I think BSK survivability is beyond the PWs you are naming.

You forgot that PW can be attacked into and die to bolt + punishing fire. Jitte dies to AD.

Anyway, we could list the benefits of both during days.

Ajani / Garruk = 10 CMC
Elspeth = 6 CMC

BSK+Jitte = 7 CMC

Without mentioning the color requirement for Garruk and Elspeth, there is already to my taste a world of difference.
But you might be right as far as SFM is concerned. A two-of might be needed to push the "no-no" comparison even further.

I think some of the posters, here, (no offense intended) are missing the key point here:

I'm trying to get the best value for each Nic Fit deck and I'm not trying to argue with every choice that is being made...

I don't get the general feeling of playing overpowered cards turn 10 with 7 or 8 basic lands into play. Any kid can win a game/match by jamming Karn, Ugin whatever huge beast he has chosen against the right matchup.
What is harder, I think, is to play a very well constructed 75 Nic Fit deck which has balanced matchups against a wider/unknown field.

And gentlemen, THIS has still yet to be achieved (and not once, save maybe Jund Fit which has one of the best record of all time).

I wish someone (better deck builder than I would ever be) can prove me wrong. /barn

You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying that jitte is not strong in nic fit and batterskull needs sfm. Deed sweeps up jitte and makes decay live again in a deck where it's dead against us for the most part. Swords are great but without sfm it's 5 mana and needs a creature. I would rather have a pw. I cannot argue against Suns champ being ridiculous bc I know it is. The mentality you take great displease in is not what we are all working toward. I want to win games with rhino in legacy. Playing cute stuff is just a bonus. I want the deck to win as well. I don't enter a daily and hope I blow someone out with elspeth. I want to win. 4-0 and steadily make a name for the deck and myself. Never mistaken my comic relief and willingness to entertain the ridiculous for a lack of competitiveness. It's rude and totes not cool bro/gurl.

[Ralf]

Yeah I'm staying cool !

You must have missed the part where I am saying equipment without deed.

You can find my list a few pages back.

Keep rocking.

[sdematt]

I think the issue is the propensity for people to want to jam 6 mana bombs into a deck, without taking into account that there will be times when you don't Vet or don't DRS, and have to play real Magic. When that happens, you lose because you can't cast anything reasonable. The whole point of Rhinofit was to have an excellent threat at a reasonable manacast that you can generally play on Turn 3, on average, and with increased consistency.

I think BUG Fit can run more high end bombs because you can run Brainstorm - you put that shit back, but other builds, namely Jund and Junk, cannot do that.

Long term advantage engines, like Equipment and Planeswalkers, are generally what you want to beat the control decks in the format. But, you have to balance how backbreaking you want to be versus those decks, counterbalanced by the usefulness against, say, Delver, Storm, and Sneak and Show. We'll never be "good against the field" because inherently, this strategy is bad against non-creature, spell based decks. But, that's why you choose slots carefully and have a very solid sideboard plan against those decks.

Sigarda beats Shardless BUG, hands down, but the thing is getting it out fast enough and/or stabilizing before they kill you. That's why you play sweepers, which are amazing in this format. Both Deed and Deluge had their advantages. Deed is better against non-Delver decks, and Deluge is better against swarm and Delver. An increasing number of Goyfs means you'd want more Deed, but more Stifles/Decay means more Deluge.

More to follow.

-Matt

[Ricardio]

Yeah I'm staying cool !

You must have missed the part where I am saying equipment without deed.

You can find my list a few pages back.

Keep rocking.

Ok. My apologies. That list seems solid albeit not my thing.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Plague
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm

This is what I'm looking at atm for Mythic this Saturday. The core is pretty similar to what I last shared, but I've changed some of the packages around because Meren will be legal.

Qasali beats Rec Sage now that Meren exists. We need another good value 2-drop, and moving the naturalize bro into that slot makes a lot of sense on many levels. Replacing Rec with Qasali requires cutting Diabolic Intent, which means that the 3rd Top needs to come back in. Meren wants more creatures, so Abzan Charm gets replaced with Courser, which in turn synergizes with the 3rd Top + Sylvan coming back in.

It was a hard road coming to this point, but I've finally cut Thragtusk. I think Thrag is still fine in a lot of versions -- but when you're slinging Rhinos, there's just no reason to run ole Tusk anymore. I'm really kind of saddened by that on a lot of levels, but that's the way things are now. Vindicate probably stands out a little, but it's actually for a pretty simple reason: Meren loses to 2 commonly played cards - Swords to Plowshares, which, let's be real, this entire deck demands being Swordsed -- and Karakas. I'm not going to run a Wasteland, so bringing back the old Vindicate makes a lot of sense here. Plus, Vindicate doubles at planeswalker removal, which can definitely be relevant at the moment.

Things I'm less happy with -- I want to find room for a 4th removal spell maindeck. It'll probably be a Maelstrom Pulse, although there's also the possibility of running a Deluge maindeck, or a singleton Abzan Charm. I'm also not sure if the Elspeth in the sideboard is actually where I want to be, or if I'd rather have another splash Miracles card that can actually function in more than just that matchup (E.Plague is a great example of this, since it shuts down Mentor while also being effective vs Elves, Young Pyro, and Dredge).

[sdematt]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Plague
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm

This is what I'm looking at atm for Mythic this Saturday. The core is pretty similar to what I last shared, but I've changed some of the packages around because Meren will be legal.

Qasali beats Rec Sage now that Meren exists. We need another good value 2-drop, and moving the naturalize bro into that slot makes a lot of sense on many levels. Replacing Rec with Qasali requires cutting Diabolic Intent, which means that the 3rd Top needs to come back in. Meren wants more creatures, so Abzan Charm gets replaced with Courser, which in turn synergizes with the 3rd Top + Sylvan coming back in.

It was a hard road coming to this point, but I've finally cut Thragtusk. I think Thrag is still fine in a lot of versions -- but when you're slinging Rhinos, there's just no reason to run ole Tusk anymore. I'm really kind of saddened by that on a lot of levels, but that's the way things are now. Vindicate probably stands out a little, but it's actually for a pretty simple reason: Meren loses to 2 commonly played cards - Swords to Plowshares, which, let's be real, this entire deck demands being Swordsed -- and Karakas. I'm not going to run a Wasteland, so bringing back the old Vindicate makes a lot of sense here. Plus, Vindicate doubles at planeswalker removal, which can definitely be relevant at the moment.

Things I'm less happy with -- I want to find room for a 4th removal spell maindeck. It'll probably be a Maelstrom Pulse, although there's also the possibility of running a Deluge maindeck, or a singleton Abzan Charm. I'm also not sure if the Elspeth in the sideboard is actually where I want to be, or if I'd rather have another splash Miracles card that can actually function in more than just that matchup (E.Plague is a great example of this, since it shuts down Mentor while also being effective vs Elves, Young Pyro, and Dredge).

Another possibility is also running a 1-of Batterskull like Vintage MUD. Good control element against Miracles, and with all our lands, it can be hard to beat. Plus, it can turn vets into threats, or it is a threat on its own. Win-win?

I agree with many of your points.

[Echelon]

I almost agree. While Meren does like it when there are plenty of creatures to go around, she also plays incredibly well with Diabolic Intent. Especially when you can throw an Eternal Witness in the mix. Draw 2 cards a turn, one of which being the exact card you need every turn, anyone..?

Also, Meren, Phyrexian Tower and Eternal Witness would seem to be a nice value engine. Recurring PtE/whatever spotremoval or Painful Truths every turn also seems like a nice thing to do.

It's hard to pull off, but when doing so you should be able to pull ahead of whatever you're facing at that point in just a few turns. It pretty much puts the deck into overdrive.

[Tom4ik]

I havent been playing nicfit for a bit while I have been on non-shardless bug midrange deck but this new Merelen looks like a nice value engine. I wonder if blue isnt a better spot for her though. Between recurring nightmare and merelen I would like to run all 4 strix as this is a draw engine most of the other colors will be harder to find. We also get things like glen elendra to help beef up our combo game.

I agree with Ralf in that when I was playing this I was looking for the tightest list possible. Its why I moved away from punishing version to blue version, as I think blue helps your worse matchups (fast combo and with things like bstorm to mitigate floods also with miracles games that go long). The tough part with the deck is that yes we "could" cast karn and that would probably win the game. BUT that opportunity cost is very high for things that cost even 5 or more. Its all about what you want to beat. Ralf sounds like he wants a more rounded 50/50 looking deck well others say if I play against TES whelp ok but as long as I hit blade, shardless and delver I crush.

[Ricardio]

Meren is released Friday I believe on mtgo so I will try it out after that point. I do believe it is better off in bug but i think moar rhino is in fact more better. I'm 4 force short of bug on mtgo but I will get them this weekend probably.
The bug list seems less powerful than junk but more value and added consistency. I have been playing the stock list but I cut trinket Mage package for 2 jtms and another decay.

[fasthippy]

Just came back from grand prix seattle and wanted to report on my list. I am budget constrained so my list has some gives for that reason but the list had overall success (I will give my final tally at the end for those that don't want spoilers).

I am not a long time legacy player but i have been playing mtg for 15 plus years and am fairly competitive, although i prefer limited over constructed. I wanted to build a list with lots of flexibility without to many cards that are weak on there own. For that reason (and budget reasons) I stuck with a simple 2 color build with lots of tutors and solid cards. I went for the full 4 living wish build and after discussing this with my friend, a much better deck builder than I, i limited my high end in the the deck and opted to put the finishers in the board. This would limit my bad starting hands and give me the flexibility of having 13 silver bullets in the board. After many round i realized that the 13 wasn't exactly what i needed but it did well most of the day.

Sry about that aside to the decklist!!

Lands:
5x Swamp
6x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Overgrown Tomb
1x Dryad Abor

The land base is simple and somewhat limited by budget. Having a ton of basics gives you natural resistance versus wasteland and being two colors I had limited issues all day (after 9 rounds) due to mana screw.

The 4's of:
4x Cabal therapy
4x Veteran Explorer
4x Living Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Abrupt decay

Little to say here. Lots of tutoring, the nic fit combo and 4x abrupt decay (i feel is a given especially in b/g shell)

The 3 and 2's of:
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Sensei's Diving Top

I think the number of hymn and deed is just right, draw them when you need them and not too much in the late game. 2x top was somewhat due to budget but was enough for me the whole day.

The main deck bullets and such:
Zem bullets:
1x Eternal witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer

This should be very flexible depending on you meta. I tried to cover all my bases as much as i could due to the open nature of the grand prix.

Winner chicken dinner:
1x Thragtusk
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth

Titania was less awesome than she could have been due to the limited number of sac lands i had but still often won games by bring 10 or 15 damage out of nowhere.

Clean up slots:
1x Diabolic intent
1x Malestom pulse

These slots are likely up to the builder but served me well throughout the day

Sry bout my ranting here is the clean list:

G/B Nic Fits

Lands:
5x Swamp
6x Forest
4x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Overgrown Tomb
1x Dryad Abor

Spells-ish:
4x Cabal therapy
2x Sensei's Diving Top
1x Diabolic intent
4x Living Wish
4x Abrupt decay
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Malestom pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Duders:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Eternal witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Thragtusk
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth

Sideboard (all them bullets):
2x Engineered Plague
1x Yixlid Jailer
1x Mesmeric Fiend
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Plaguebearer
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Minister of Pain
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Ashen Rider
1x Bojuku Bog
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titian

The sideboard performed very well for me with me pulling (or using) at least 13 or the 15 targets with my only dead slots being Yixlid and Mesmeric Fiend. I found Ashen Rider to be a dud versus show and tell as they can see it coming. After the tourney i replaced Ashen with Karakas to shore up my reanimator/ sneak and show match up.

There is a lot of flexibility here and this was the main reason i played this deck. The plan worked very well (as you'll see) if not perfectly.

I prepared for several months before the tourney and felt pretty solid versus everything except the fastest of combo decks. I ate some donuts and a breakfast sandwich and proceeded to round 1.

Round 1-Cody-Sneak and Show:
Game 1: He turn 2ed Gristlebrand and even though i was able to strip his hand of counters and resolve living wish i didn't have a SB card to deal with the big demon.

Game 2: A much slower game but he eventually stuck Tidespout Tyrant. He bounced all my things and i got rolled over. Again i wished but had no target....

0-1 Round 2-Maxwell-Infect:
Game 1: I stumbled with a slow hand and he killed me turn 3 or 4 with a berserk.

Game 2: He went all in on his land while i had deed in play. I deeded for zero and he lost several turn later

Game 3: He went turn 1 infect guy. I turn 1 cabal therapy for berserk, he had double invigorate and i lost on his turn 2.

0-2 Round 3-Jon-Infect: In order to get to day 2 i was going to need to go 7-0 from here on. I put on my hard hat and went to work

Game 1: He mulliganed and had a slow start. More than enough time for me to get the shields up and i stripped his hands with discard to put him out of the game completely.

Game 2: Early discard and removal bought me the time early. Despite that he had 2 turn to draw pump for the win but i was able to pull it out on 9 poison counters.

1-2 Round 4-Emily-Death and Taxes
Game 1: This was an epic 47 minute slug fest with her gaining life to above 40 and me deeding the board several times. I made the mistake of letting batterskull stick around too long and it nearly cost me the game. I was able to swing for 20 plus damage on the final turn (grave titan leading the charge) the turn she would have killed me with her pro black/green double striker. I used all 4 wishes and green sun's so many times that i only had explorers left in my deck!

Game 2: Never happened, it went to time before she finished sideboarding. I let her know about the time and a judge was standing next to me but she casually sided in and out until time was called.

2-2 Round 5-Sam-Death and Taxes: Fatigue was real after the last match but I learned a ton about the D&T matchup and was ready to go.
Game 1: Sam beat me down to 4 with a Jitte wielding Brimaz but I was able to tutor up a rec sage into Kruphix and stabilize from there. I ended the game at 15, went to kill his Brimaz (which he bounced) into cabal therapy hitting 2 Brimaz.

Game 2: I was now feeling very comfortable with this matchup and was able to lock down his equipment with double rec sage. Again he beat me down to 9 but i was able to stabilize back to 17.

3-2 Round 6-Kevin-Death and Taxes
Game 1 and 2: My experience served me well and i was able to easily 2-0 my opponent despite his best efforts. What i learned was to kill batterskull no matter what and hold onto the therapies to catch stoneforged equipment. This matchup seemed very much in my favor which is not a surprise as Nic Fit works around everything that death and taxes is trying to punish. He can't mana lock you, he can't out creature you, and you are able to cabal therapy the stone forge before he gets to drop his sweet equipment.

4-2 Round 7-Kevin (different guy)-Elves
Game 1: I was able to speed out a pernicious deed for an early board clear. Later in the game I wished for Minister of pain and erased all hope of him wining. An aside, always always cabal for glimpse of nature in this match.

Game 2: I kept a hand with and engineered plague. I was able to grab a glimpse early (seeing a natural order and progenitus in hand), and he started to go off turn 3 with 2 green sun's for symbiotic duders but ended the turn hitting me for 1. I cast plague on my turn three and it was only a matter of time before he was dead.

5-2 Round 8-Nick-Rug Delver: Nick was a long time legacy player that flew up from Texas to play. I was very nervous going into the match despite my testing showing delver was in my favor.

Game 1: I was able to stick a deed (eventually) and was able to clear the board at 9. I started to drain him out with Deathrite and was able to kill him the turn before he lethal-ed me with delver.

Game 2: He had a strong start of tarmo into disruption and i never stood a chance.

Game 3: I cabal-ed for a tarmo and hit on turn 1. I also saw double mongoose which he quickly played. With him at 6 cards in the yard i wished for bog and slowed the beats down. We both went into top deck mode and despite some poor plays from me (not flashing back cabal for counters...) I was able to out top deck him for the win.

6-2 Round 9-Andrew- Show/reanimator
Game 1: Turn 1 he discarded Gristle into turn 2 reanimator. Again i was able to wish but had no answer in the board....

Game 2: I got out an early death rite but still didn't stand much of a chance.

Overall 6-3

I just missed day 2 in the last round.... but the deck performed well. My final opponent mentioned how much a beating Karakas was for his deck so i went and traded some things to put one in my board. I think with the right SB i could have got 1 of the show and tell match ups but i still havn't been able to go back in time so it doesn't help much...

I plan to keep playing and tuning the deck over time. There is a shop in Portland that has weekly events for dual's so I will likely swing by here and there and build up the deck. If i could have made any changes, i would have included at least a sac creature in the board for gristle and company. If I can build up some MTG dollars i might pick up a lily or 2 to help out versus the big creatures but that will be in the long distant future.

Thanks for the read and any suggestions are appreciated.

[sdematt]

I think based on my GP experience, of which I'll write a tournament report tomorrow-ish, I'd go forward with the following. I play more removal than Kevin, since that's life in Canada. Gotta be ready for those Polar Krakens.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
15

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
2 Painful Truths
16

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
9

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold (might become Karakas since Meren/Sigarda is your go-to)
1 Phyrexian Tower
22

//sb
1 Batterskull
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Slaughter Games
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle

[Ralf]

Just came back from grand prix seattle and wanted to report on my list.

First thing of all things. Thank you very much for your report and welcome among Nic Fit players.

Had you come earlier, we (Nic Fit community) might have been able to work you out with some ideas for the GP, all based on budget constraints.

You can be very proud of such a "first" and challenging run.
You basically wrecked every fair MU and got raped by non fair MU.


JBone is one of our best experienced player with a "Living Wish" package.

I'm pretty sure, he will step by, eventually, to give you a lot of ideas/advices for future events.

I'll try to come up with few ideas taking into account your budget constraints in the next few days to help you through your difficult MU.

Cheers,

Ralf.

[Arianrhod]

@Matt: I find your lack of faith in Nightmare...disturbing.

Otherwise, I like it overall. It's more of the jund style approach to the deck (1-for-1 removal suite with heavy card draw, limited ways to actually win), which is fine. I do think you might want to consider a Vindicate over the Pulse. Pulse is generally the better card, but Vindicate is better when Karakas matters to you (Meren) and when you have a powerful recursion engine (EWit + Meren/Nightmare/Stronghold, if the latter stays). The last time I played with Vindicate, I definitely won a couple games by looping into repeated Vindicates to color screw people. It's just a nice functionality to have, and it comes at very little cost.

That's the only real complaints I have -- I obviously build my sideboard a little differently, but that can be anything from regional opponents to personal preferences to local meta.

[fasthippy]

First thing of all things. Thank you very much for your report and welcome among Nic Fit players.

Had you come earlier, we (Nic Fit community) might have been able to work you out with some ideas for the GP, all based on budget constraints.

You can be very proud of such a "first" and challenging run.
You basically wrecked every fair MU and got raped by non fair MU.


JBone is one of our best experienced player with a "Living Wish" package.

I'm pretty sure, he will step by, eventually, to give you a lot of ideas/advices for future events.

I'll try to come up with few ideas taking into account your budget constraints in the next few days to help you through your difficult MU.

Cheers,

Ralf.

In terms of my budget I can pick up a key card here and there (i traded for a Karakas..) but i cant go and drop a thousand dollars on a land base or anything like that. The deck seemed close, which seemed surprising due to my relative lack of experience (tested against miracles/delver/omnitell for the last few months). Some of the board definitely needs upgrades, plague bearer seemed great on paper but was meh throughout the day. I liked the bullet board as it made all my living wishes super powerful and there were few matchups that i felt like a huge dog (i did need a fleshbag though..).

Ya as you said those speedy combo decks were rough for me. I have been thinking about going to the full 4 hymn's as it is a main strength of the deck and is the best start the deck can have (cabal, explorer, cabal, hymn). I liked running a high % of basics, I basically ignored wasteland which can sometimes just steal a win right out from under a good hand. Also i might go to 2 thrag's as i am not really running enough sac lands to take advantage of Titania.

Overall the deck felt solid all day and when games came down to top deck wars, I always felt favored due to the tutor package and overall stronger cards.

[gth842s]

Hello All!

I'm relatively new to both Nic Fit and legacy but have had a blast so far. I've played in two local 40-60 man tournaments and have gone a total of 5-2-1 with Junk Nic Fit, beating Delver variants 2-0, Miracles 1-0, Cloudpost 1-0, Grixis Control 1-0 and losing to Lands and Punishing Jund (my draw was to Maverick and was largely a result of my poor play). I have a few questions:

1. I've played both tournaments with a small Stoneforge package: 3 Mystics; 1 Batterskull; and 1 Jitte. The package has won me as many games as Rhino or Titania have, but it's also quite the non-bo with Pernicious Deed. When is a stoneforge package advisable (i.e. what matchups does Stoneforge improve) and when is it not?

2. I'm fairly sure I understand how to beat Jund the next time I'm paired against it (the Stoneforge package wasn't where I wanted to be - should have sideboarded into more fatties and some graveyard hate). I have no idea what to do about Lands; that feels like a really tough pairing. Any advice you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

3. What are the pros and cons of Punishing Nic Fit vs. Rhino Fit? I'm working on acquiring Grove of the Burnwillows so I have the option of switching between the two decks.

4. Why has Grave Titan fallen out of favor? He feels like a stronger card than any other option at 6CMC for the deck.

Thanks!!

[Ricardio]

Hello All!

I'm relatively new to both Nic Fit and legacy but have had a blast so far. I've played in two local 40-60 man tournaments and have gone a total of 5-2-1 with Junk Nic Fit, beating Delver variants 2-0, Miracles 1-0, Cloudpost 1-0, Grixis Control 1-0 and losing to Lands and Punishing June (my draw was to Maverick and was largely a result of my poor play). I have a few questions:

1. I've played both tournaments with a small Stoneforge package: 3 Mystics; 1 Batterskull; and 1 Jitte. The package has won me as many games as Rhino or Titania have, but it's also quite the non-bo with Pernicious Deed. When is a stoneforge package advisable (i.e. what matchups does Stoneforge improve) and when is it not?

2. I'm fairly sure I understand how to beat Jund the next time I'm paired against it (the Stoneforge package wasn't where I wanted to be - should have sideboarded into more fatties and some graveyard hate). I have no idea what to do about Lands; that feels like a really tough pairing. Any advice you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

3. What are the pros and cons of Punishing Nic Fit vs. Rhino Fit? I'm working on acquiring Grove of the Burnwillows so I have the option of switching between the two decks.

4. Why has Grave Titan fallen out of favor? He feels like a stronger card than any other option at 6CMC for the deck.

Thanks!!

3. Punishing is absolute control and has the best fair matchup but sacrifices further for the combo matchup. White gives a lot of options like teeg and canonist.

4. Grave Titan can't be gsz for and the big deck runs it to pod tusk into Titan. 6 drops are a premium and primeval is only good in jund builds, mostly scapeshift.

The other two questions, I feel my answer won't be nearly as accurate as someone else's so hopefully I helped.

[fasthippy]

Hello All!

I'm relatively new to both Nic Fit and legacy but have had a blast so far. I've played in two local 40-60 man tournaments and have gone a total of 5-2-1 with Junk Nic Fit, beating Delver variants 2-0, Miracles 1-0, Cloudpost 1-0, Grixis Control 1-0 and losing to Lands and Punishing Jund (my draw was to Maverick and was largely a result of my poor play). I have a few questions:

1. I've played both tournaments with a small Stoneforge package: 3 Mystics; 1 Batterskull; and 1 Jitte. The package has won me as many games as Rhino or Titania have, but it's also quite the non-bo with Pernicious Deed. When is a stoneforge package advisable (i.e. what matchups does Stoneforge improve) and when is it not?

2. I'm fairly sure I understand how to beat Jund the next time I'm paired against it (the Stoneforge package wasn't where I wanted to be - should have sideboarded into more fatties and some graveyard hate). I have no idea what to do about Lands; that feels like a really tough pairing. Any advice you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

3. What are the pros and cons of Punishing Nic Fit vs. Rhino Fit? I'm working on acquiring Grove of the Burnwillows so I have the option of switching between the two decks.

4. Why has Grave Titan fallen out of favor? He feels like a stronger card than any other option at 6CMC for the deck.

Thanks!!

I can only really speak on 4.

4. During my games with my wish version i played him into the board so that i was running a virtual 4 of. What i found during my games is that you often have to grab the answer cards over the win cons (rec sage or revoker). There were several cases were i could have grabbed titan and cast him the next turn but having the answer now was more important. I did cast him two or three times and in every case he won me the game but the situation has to be just right. I liked him in the wish board as i never worried about him being a dead draw early and as was said you cant green sun him anyway.

[Paranoid__Android]

Played in a big tournament with classic Abzan Fit, but with Dragonlord Dromoka, Wilt-Leaf Liege and more removal (4x Deeds, 3 Decays, etc...)
Went 3-1-1. Fifth place out of 22 players, but since we had little time, only top4. -.-'

Round 01 - WUR Stoneblade 1:1

Worst playing ever. We started playing slowly, and I was thinking that he is playing with Delvers. So, JTMS got online. And soooo slow playing from him. Eventually Batterskull killed me. G2 Qasali Pridemage was a BEAST. Rushed him to a few lives, then Siege Rhino took his life. G3 he stuck a Blood Moon and I totally forgot about that. So, got in time, but I didn't want to concede. Aaaaand a fail of a beginning.

Round 02 - ANT 1:2

First I was paired with a RUG Delver, which I would win 2:0, since I know how to play against them, but judge failed at pairing an I got paired with ANT player, a friend from our group. Game 1 was very easy. Rushing with creatures and Rhino+WiltLeaf to the win! Game 2 he returned my Gaddock Teeg to hand and killed me next turn. And BIGGEST MISTAKE OF THAT DAY...I sided out every Deed & Night of Souls' Betrayal. I had 3 lands in play, one in hand, and Enlightened Tutor...I was so happy that I will kill 14 goblins...and then...fail...well, 1:2. -.-'

Round 03 - Modern DredgeTroll 2:0

Opponent was very ''tired'' and missplayed everything. Maindeck gravehate did the job, and 2:0 for me.

Round 04 - Dredge 2:0

He conceded since I always beat him 2:0. :D

Round 05 - Nic Fit 2:0

Best game of the day. I started with a slightly bad hand. He played a version of Fierce Empath into Sun Titan/Grave Titan. I had a thought in game 1 that I will lose both games, but first game Rhinos took his life and Paths exiled both Titans. SDTop was a BEAST. Game 2 topdeck mode was also good. Removal when needed, GSZ when needed. Dragonlord Dromoka into Wilt-Leaf Liege, and he lost in the last round of time. Haha! :D

Lessons learned that day:
- always keep a Deed against ANT
- Sigarda & Thrun against WUR Stoneblade
- I can win mirror matchups! :D

[Jain_Mor]

This just in: Meren and Dryad Arbor are pretty sweet together.

[Ganfar]

3. Punishing is absolute control and has the best fair matchup but sacrifices further for the combo matchup. White gives a lot of options like teeg and canonist.

4. Grave Titan can't be gsz for and the big deck runs it to pod tusk into Titan. 6 drops are a premium and primeval is only good in jund builds, mostly scapeshift.

The other two questions, I feel my answer won't be nearly as accurate as someone else's so hopefully I helped.

You have also Broodmate Dragon in Jund. More power, more bodys and can block delver as a boss.

[sdematt]

Yeah, if I were on Jund, I'd play Huntmaster and Broodmate, Thragtusk and Thrun.

-Matt

[Ricardio]

Thragbro is in all my nic fit decks. He's always there and always has my back. I would never relegate him to a single build. Tuskerino is my goose and, I, his maverick.

*queue Highway to the Danger Zone*

[moseby]

Yeah, if I were on Jund, I'd play Huntmaster and Broodmate, Thragtusk and Thrun.

-Matt

Just another option for jund is Ruric Thar, he also crushes delver decks, well and decks that want to cast spells.


Regarding Dragonlord Dromoka, my only issue with him, is that there are a bunch of Karakas's in my neck of the woods. I have dropped him a couple of times only to have my opponent sandbag a karakas, so he has been benched for the time being.

[Arianrhod]

Just another option for jund is Ruric Thar, he also crushes delver decks, well and decks that want to cast spells.


Regarding Dragonlord Dromoka, my only issue with him, is that there are a bunch of Karakas's in my neck of the woods. I have dropped him a couple of times only to have my opponent sandbag a karakas, so he has been benched for the time being.

See also why I've been running Vindicate lately.

[Ricardio]

See also why I've been running Vindicate lately.

I made the switch and am liking its versatility.

Also, when is meren legal on mtgo?

[sdematt]

Since when has legality stopped anyone? Black Lotus easily casts a Siege Rhino amirite? ;)

-Matt

[fasthippy]

See also why I've been running Vindicate lately.

I'm fairly new to the forums here so forgive me if I'm being crazy.

I have an odd thought about this quote above.

This quote is in a chain of add this, but this, so i add that for this thing but than I need that.

Isn't one of the greatest strengths of this deck to avoid the hate that does exist. Everyone is playing wasteland so we play basics, lots of Karakas so we beat down with our non legend monsters and so on.

What i am trying to say is that what you leave out of a list is as important as what you include. I love all the cool bits and pieces we can play but the truth is with as many cards that are available to us (in legacy) unless a cards has a very important role to play, if it is weak to something common in the format we should likely not include it. Now I am not saying we should restrict ourselves in building but instead dig deeper into whats out there. Perhaps this cards is bad because bolt or Karakas but there is likely a card that has a similar effect that doesn't care about bolt or Karakas.

On a different note I love vindicate as well because of flexibility and ability to deal with a wide number of decks. What I am trying to say is when building we should try to maximize our flexibility and restrict our weaknesses. I only played 2 colors and played a ton of basics, but because of the huge card pool to pull from i felt like i could face almost any deck (which proved to be incorrect :tongue:).

[uncletiggy]

I'm honestly still sold the best version of g/b/w starts with 4 rhino 1 sigarda 1 nightmare and 3 equips and fills in from there. Angler is a card now so thrun is weaker, dig is gone so cabal therapy and deed actually generate card advantage, miracles and shardless are back on top. Trampling swords seemed under valued by the community. Case and point since siege rhinos printing there is no good reason to play any six drop. Tasigur and meren shenanigans are more reinventing the wheel imo we already have stronghold and nightmare i fail to see how they are better options in place of existing options or simply playing more disruption if they are in additon to exsisting options.

[Ricardio]

I'm honestly still sold the best version of g/b/w starts with 4 rhino 1 sigarda 1 nightmare and 3 equips and fills in from there. Angler is a card now so thrun is weaker, dig is gone so cabal therapy and deed actually generate card advantage, miracles and shardless are back on top. Trampling swords seemed under valued by the community. Case and point since siege rhinos printing there is no good reason to play any six drop. Tasigur and meren shenanigans are more reinventing the wheel imo we already have stronghold and nightmare i fail to see how they are better options in place of existing options or simply playing more disruption if they are in additon to exsisting options.

I understand and agree to a degree.(Dr fkn Seuss over here)
We are getting a bit cute but I will say that nightmare and equipment are not where I want to be at this moment. They seem like value but not in all positions. Painful truths and ajani mentor have been insane for me in all situations. Neither of them get swept up by deed and I can rely on what they will do. If I cast a sword and it resolves, only for it to get decayed when I go to equip it, I'm gonna turn down for what(aka be mad). We lost mana, value and most importantly turned on a previously dead card.

[Ganfar]

Yeah, if I were on Jund, I'd play Huntmaster and Broodmate, Thragtusk and Thrun.

-Matt

I going to replace my Thrun for the new commander. It do a lot more work

[gth842s]

A quick note from my (limited) experience so far with Nic Fit w/ Stoneforge Mystics: I haven't had my equipment bite many Abrupt Decays because most players are so quick to blow up your Stoneforge Mystic (they're afraid you'll cheat in Batterskull if you untap with it) and because most people don't have enough experience against Nic Fit to realize we'll just hard-cast the Batterskull a turn or two later. That said, I wouldn't play equipment without SFM to tutor it up, I'd just run planeswalkers for value or 187-type creatures and spells. A Rhino suited up with a Jitte and a Batterskull is a thing of grindy beauty, however. Similarly, I think the value of Thrun goes way up if you are playing equipment and way down if you aren't, for obvious reasons.

[Ganfar]

In the Jund build of nic-fit:

Is Kolgath's command or painfull turth the best card as a one of?

[uncletiggy]

For reference this is my list.

Creatures 16
3 vet
2 drs
1 teeg
1 ooze
1 sfm
1 qpm
1 courser
1 mentor
4 rhino
1 sigarda

selection 8
3 top
3 zenith
1 intent
1 nightmare

disruption 15
4 therapy
3 decay
1 path
1 plow
1 f charm
1 deed
1 deluge
1 pulse
1 sofi
1 jitte

lands 22
2 bayou
2 savanna
1 scrubland
1 badlands (dont own a tiger)
2 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 phrexian tower
1 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath

Sb 15
2 teeg
1 cannonist
1 dryad militant
1 k grip
1 deed
1 deluge
2 thoughtseize
2 slaughter games
1 solas
3 open

The funeral charm is a concession to wanting the 3rd one mana removal spell and a fifth piece of maindeck discard. All modes on it are relevant it can snag a terminus with the trigger on the stack, fufills a critical mass of discard vs storm and burn, can get sigarda around a wall of strix or act as a surprise shock when paired with rhino. The other odd selection is the geist. He is a certified jace killer having a hasted zenithable threat especially with equipment matters vs mircles and shardless him + eot dryad arbor help make up for the lack of a maindeck pulse.

Mentor is the most recent addition originally i had been toying with a slightly different version with knights and titania to try and go wide mentor seemed to solve that desire without requiring any additional support it is currently untested.

[Arianrhod]

Took top 16 at Mythic, good for $50. Not sure where exactly, but I'm guessing 11th-14th range. Played my last posted list.

Matchups were:

BUG Delver (L) - punted hard in g3, totally my fault
Grixis Omni (W)
Infect (W)
TES (L) - Bryant Cook, very insanely close/good match.
Grixis Delver w/Deathrites (W)
Reanimator (W)

I'll post a detailed report tomorrow.

[Myelectronicdays]

Very nice arianrhod! I actually played your list today at my local legacy event. Had a couple card different..

went 2-2 for the day. (only 4 rounds for our weekly).

Lost to infect 0-2
Won vs some modern zombie garbage (wasnt even a match)
Lost to Sneak and Show 1-2
Won vs Death and Taxes 2-0

The round vs sneak and show was winnable.. sometimes they just draw the nuts.. but I seem to be terrible vs infect.. they jsut always seem to blitz me so hard.. would love to hear your strategy vs that deck.


very fun list!

PS meren is amazing.

[sdematt]

In the Jund build of nic-fit:

Is Kolgath's command or painfull turth the best card as a one of?

I forgot to write the tournament report, but Truth is an excellent card in midrange and control decks that can play it. It was so good against the blue decks all tournament; do not underestimate the power.

[Ganfar]

I forgot to write the tournament report, but Truth is an excellent card in midrange and control decks that can play it. It was so good against the blue decks all tournament; do not underestimate the power.
Yeah, I know Truth is a good card, I got to play it sometimes and drawing 3 cards i awesome. I was just wondering if command was in the same powerlevel.

[sdematt]

Doing different things, but I'd honestly rather draw 3 cards raw.

-Matt

[Arianrhod]

Okay, detailed report.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

As noted, this is the same list that I last posted. I kind of wanted to find room for another removal spell maindeck, but I ended up not being able and just went with what I had.

Round 1: Maxwell with BUG Delver

He wins the die roll, and leads USea -> Delver. I play a Forest and a Top, he Dazes it. K. He proceeds to curve DRS -> Goyf -> Liliana -> Force backup while I draw nothing but lands. I think I drew one non-land card the entire game :|

Game two I keep the following hand:

Bayou, Vet, Top, GSZ, E.Wit, Tsunami, Decay. I opt to play the Top on turn 1, while he Thoughtseizes me and takes the Vet. Annoying, but w/e. I naturally draw a Forest. I think I Zenithed up a DRS, and then he Needled my Top. I blew that up with Decay, and we went back and forth for a while. I eventually got a Therapy off, checking for Forces and hitting 3x Decays on the way back. Rhino trampled over a TNN, but he had a disfigure to finish it off. Baneslayer cleaned up the game.

Game three was my only really bad time of the day. He led with a Delver. I played a Vet, which he Dazed, then he untapped into a Deathrite. I played a land, and tanked. I had a couple of options. I could play another Veteren, or I could hold up Decay, or I could Zenith out a Deathrite of my own. I immediately concluded that the Zenith was the worst line -- it lost to 2nd Daze and realistically a Deathrite war isn't where I wanted to be anyway. My instincts were screaming at me that he was going to Brainstorm on upkeep to flip the Delver, and I could really get him with Decay if I held that up. For some reason, though, I decided to play the Vet. I still to this moment haven't figured out why I did that.

Long story short, he Brainstormed on upkeep like I knew he would, and I ended up having to do something else on the following turn, and then he Hymned me and hit both my Vindicate and Decay in my hand, which left me with land + courser. Courser resolved, but proceeded to just draw me garbage until I was dead. That stupid Delver did basically all of the damage to me that entire game. If I'd just listened to my instincts I could've time walked him and prevented an eventual loss. Instead, I'm a dumbass.

The good? news is that my opponent proceeded to crush the rest of the swiss, and was in 1st or 2nd seed going into top 8, I believe.

Round 2: Zach with Grixis OmniTell

I was pretty confused game one. He led Proge into Volc, which immediately sounded warning klaxons. He played some cantrips while I tried to beat him down as quickly as possible. He added an Underground Sea at some point, and then Burning Wished for Show and Tell. Okay, mystery solved. All told I got him to 7 before he went off, with the help of a turn 3 Rhino off DRS. He was dead the following turn: DRS drain + rhino/vet swing for 5. Close.

In comes infinite sideboard hate.

Game two was an exercise in "almost good enough, actually good enough." He had some cantrips, but I actually drew Therapies this game. I eventually deployed a Canonist to join my board of other dorks, and Vindicated his lone Volcanic Island. He drew another Volcanic off the Top, and slammed the Pryoclasm that was apparently the last card in his hand. Oof. It's okay, though, because I can (and do) Zenith up Sigarda to close the game out. He doesn't draw runner runner combo cards, and we go to game 3.

Game three I actually saw Slaughter Games, and took out his Omnis. This gave me perfect info on his deck, and I still had things to worry about -- he had a pair of Emrakuls and a pair of Griselbrands in the deck, with 4 Show and Tells (he'd wished for one, I'd discarded it and then later an Emrakul which shuffled back in). I manage to beat him down to 3, and then Zenith up a Rhino to finish him off before he recovers.

Round 3: Shawn with Infect

My opening hand is insane vs fair.dec, so I hope that my opponent is playing nice and keep. My opponent leads Pendelhaven into Noble Hierarch. Welp.

Luckily for me, the reason that my hand was insane vs fair.dec was because I had all three Pernicious Deeds in it. I blocked the first two Glistener Elf hits with Vets (sadly they didn't die because of the Pendelhaven). The first Deed gets Forced, and the second gets Stifled -- the Stifle costs me 6 poison, which was the first damage I'd taken that game. Good thing I had number three, which joins the party. Some combat fuckery happens, and I deal with his Glistener Elf by double blocking it with Courser + E.Wit, forcing him to start using his Inkmoth instead -- the reason being that I want to Deed away his Inkmoth. I eventually kill him with Rhinos while never letting him connect with another creature for the rest of the game.

I'll note that I had a sweet line that I REALLY wanted to take, but chose not to because I Therapied him and saw a Crop Rot. I had the ability at one point to break Deed @1 to kill 1 Veteran + 1 Deathrite + Glistener + Noble, and I really wanted to Zenith up Meren, but I'd therapied and knew he had a Crop Rotation. I'm like 95% sure that Infect plays a Karakas maindeck, so I just got a Rhino instead. Sad times.

Game two my opening hand once again had two Deeds. Sick life. Unfortunately, my opponent has two Pithing Needles. I thoughtseize the first one on turn 1, but he draws + Probes into another one. I go to 8 poison this game before stabilizing with a Golgari Charm to kill his 2x Glistener draw. Decay takes out a Blighted Agent while Therapy + Flashback takes out another that was lurking in his hand, and then he was out of gas. Qasali comes out and punches for 3 a bunch of times, while threatening to free up a Deed that I'd played into the Needle at instant speed if it was ever needed. It wasn't, and I was 2-1.

Round 4: Bryant Cook with TES

Bryant and I have played many times, and despite my joking that I was probably just dead on turn 1 every game, we usually have really good matches. If he writes a report for Mythic, I'm sure his account will be better and more detailed, but I'll do the best I can.

Game one we both mulled to 6. He plays USea and a pair of LEDs, and passes, scaring me quite a bit in the process. I deploy a couple of Veterans for early beatdowns while he's stuck on one land. A Deed@0 takes out his LEDs -- I chose not to crack it for 1 both because I wanted to get those LEDs out of the equation as quickly as I could, and because he was still on one land and I had a feeling he wanted my Vets to die so he could get his Swamp and get to 2 mana. I draw into a Therapy finally once he's at 5 life vs my 22 (thanks, Rhino). I Therapy him, naming Dark Ritual, and see Infernal, Probe, Duress, 2x Rite of Flame, 2x Chrome Mox. I decide it's worth giving him one mana to take away the Infernal, since it's his only business, so I flashback off a Vet, which leaves lethal in play thanks to Rhino + Vet.

He draws for his turn and Probes me, and then proceeds to reveal that he drew double Burning Wish. He tries to get something going with Past in Flames, but he's short of being able to do anything and scoops it up.

Game 2 is pretty /cry. I have a slower hand with some hate and a Therapy. I call Dark Ritual again and miss. His hand is Infernal, Wish, AdNaus, Petal, Chrome, Mire. He draws an LED and Infernals for a second copy, then plays them to dodge Therapy flashback. Unfortunately, I don't draw into a 1 drop, a 2 drop, or a Green Sun, and he gets to untap unmolested. He chooses to Duress me, which reveals the Mindcensor in my hand to him. The following turn he goes in on Burning Wish and makes 10 goblins while hoping I don't draw into a Deed. I take out two of the Goblins with the Mindcensor and a Vet, but fail to draw into a sweeper or a Rhino. I do manage to give him a good scare, though -- my last draw is Vindicate, so I tap three and point at his goblins. We have a good laugh, and it's off to three.

I had a really strong start this game, and Bryant was pretty resigned for a long time. It involved Therapy (which missed again, revealing AdNaus, PEtal, LED, I.Tutor, 2x Mire, Tendrils), into Vet (taking the AdNaus), into Canonist. Canonist got to stick around a couple of turns, long enough for me to Zenith up Meren. He'd used basically all of his resources to Tutor for Wish to get Massacre over that time. He Massacred, killing the Canonist, but didn't have a lot else to do yet. Meren had one counter on her, and I had one turn where if I'd found a sacrifice outlet (I would've even Deeded@1) to off the Vet again to get Meren to 2, I would've definitely won -- Meren recurring Canonist would be insane. I didn't, though, so I decided that the best line I could take was to play the Elspeth, redbull Meren, and put him to 7. I knew the slight way back into the game that he had was to recur the AdNaus, so I wanted him to have as little life to work with as possible. He got the best draw he possibly could (a Dark Ritual), which let him start going off with Past in Flames -> Ad Nauseum. His first AdNaus flip was an LED. He dropped to 3 off the PiF, but had enough to Tendrils me for exact.

Absolutely a hell of a match -- probably one of the closest I've ever played vs TES.

Round 5: Michael with Grixis Delver (with Deathrites)

Both of these games were pretty academic, so I don't have many notes on them. He was playing Delver. I was playing Nic Fit. He didn't nut me and I didn't punt, therefore I won. I successfully Therapied a Stifle in game one, which cleared the way for me to Deed away my 2x Vets + his DRS + Delver + Pyromancer. I then untapped curving Rhino into Sun Titan. Our game two was basically a cripple fight -- I had a Qasali vs his DRS, and that was basically the entire game. We just disrupted each other constantly beyond that. I eventually drew into more gas and killed him.

Round 6: Nick Patnode with Reanimator

Patnode and I have also played a lot of matches. We joke that there are days I beat him, and there are days he beats me, because of his deck selection. Sometimes he plays Shardless or RUG, other times he plays Reanimator or TES. He wins the die roll and leads USea -> Ponder. Okay, Reanimator then.

I Therapy him for Reanimate and hit, seeing 2x Careful Study, BStorm, Animate Dead, and Misty. He draws, plays a land, and passes. He expects me to do Veteran things to flashback the Therapy, so he's holding up Brainstorm. I Zenith up a DRS instead, and pass. He reveals that he'd hid an Entomb on top of his deck with the Ponder on turn 1, and makes a Griselbrand. I try to Vindicate it, but he has the Force. Oh well.

Games two and three was batshit crazy. Game two his hand is pretty awful, and I make it worse -- I play a Deathrite, which he Forces, and then I zenith up the second one. I also have a Karakas in play, so he decides to Entomb/Exhume Sire of Insanity, which lets me get back my 2nd Deathrite. The chaos that ensues is ridiculous. 20 minutes of durdling later, I'd managed to block (or absorb hits from) his Sire while controlling the graveyard with my Deathrites. Multiple Veterans went off, and I had Sylvan to help keep my cards up as best I could. I eventually Zenithed out Meren, and she won the game for me. Turns out Meren is awfully good vs Sire of Insanity.

Game three we ended up in a similar state, except via Careful Study I think? Either way, Sire came out again -- but this time he had one of my Deathrites while I had the other (He'd killed one early and then reanimated it for himself). He eventually added a Grave Titan to the mix, but I had enough dorks in play to stall until I landed a Baneslayer (Courser helped me draw into it), which was able to win the game in one hit -- Mindcensor had been poking him in the air and I'd been aggro-durdling him. Two swings with a Grave Titan weren't enough to win the game, and I found myself 4-2, good for top 16.

So, to recap, the only bad game I had all day, I feel, was my r1g3 vs BUG where I just shot myself in the foot. Beyond that, I played against 4 combo decks and beat 3 (almost beating the 4th). The other fair matchup went exactly as it should.

The takeaways:

-) Meren didn't come up a ton, but a lot of that was because of matchups. I was very happy to have her in the list, and she'll continue to be present.
-) I want another 2-drop, but I don't know what I want it to be, since all of the options are bleh.
-) Qasali overperformed, and I didn't even play vs Miracles or Stoneblade.
-) I had a couple of times where I should've gotten Nissa and didn't because I didn't set her up properly, which is a play error on my part (ie I fetched basic forests too much and didn't leave fetches in play for her).
-) Sun Titan was bad on the day, but I think that's almost entirely matchup-driven. You can't realistically expect to play vs 4 combo decks when the format is heavily miracles and shardless -- and he's far from dead vs delver, too.
-) Vindicate only came up once (nuking a volc vs grixis omni). If it had been a Pulse, I might've beat Bryant in 2 (would've cleared goblins). At the same time, I didn't play vs Miracles or DnT. Hmm.
-) The sideboard was ridiculous. I'd say it's something like 13-14/15 correct. The Elspeth is really the only thing that I'm unsure about...maybe the Plague, but I like the idea of the plague.

So, things to be improved upon:

-) Probably -1 Courser, +1 2-drop. Courser is good, and I was never really unhappy to see it, but I need space for another 2-drop, and the 2nd Courser is the only thing I really think of right now.
-) I still want another removal spell -- probably a Pulse but possibly a Deluge, an Abzan, or a Judgment. Still no idea where to find the room for it.
-) The Elspeth in the board probably should just come out and be replaced with a more flexible card.

It's possible that the 2-drop problem just can't be solved right now, and the 2nd Courser (if I do end up cutting that, which I'm far from sure about), should be the 4th removal spell.

Either way, it was definitely a good day. Could've been slightly better, but I'm not going to complain. This list is really solid, and a blast to play. It just needs a little tiny bit more tuning and then it should be pretty close to perfect (at least, perfect for my playstyle and tastes).

[uncletiggy]

What do you want from the two drop? Scooze goyf and teeg instantly come to mind I'd consider them all slightly better then the second courser.

[sdematt]

Ooze> all.

[pettdan]

Thanks for the long, nice read!

It seems you missed listing the two Coursers.

Ooze is a very good two drop, surprised to see it's not in your list. Another two drop to consider could be Strangleroot Geist. Not very strong, certainly not compared to Ooze, but it does offer a way to get rid of early Lilianas, punish Miracles for tapping out for Jace, double trading or double chumping vs creature based assaults to buy time and vs combo decks allowing t2 flashbacked Therapy + hitting for three for a faster clock.

[Myelectronicdays]

awesome write up!! thanks for tuning the list.. so far its been my favorite abzan build to play.. so definately going to keep at it :)

[Arianrhod]

Thanks for the long, nice read!

It seems you missed listing the two Coursers.

Ooze is a very good two drop, surprised to see it's not in your list. Another two drop to consider could be Strangleroot Geist. Not very strong, certainly not compared to Ooze, but it does offer a way to get rid of early Lilianas, punish Miracles for tapping out for Jace, double trading or double chumping vs creature based assaults to buy time and vs combo decks allowing t2 flashbacked Therapy + hitting for three for a faster clock.

Good eye. I fixed that Re@Coursers.

My biggest problem with Ooze is more playstyle than anything else. I tend to use my graveyard fairly heavily. The same is true in vintage -- I wasn't running more than 1 each of Dig and Cruise even before the restriction, because I tend to play to my Yawg Will. I didn't want to weaken my Will even if it meant that some games I might not need to Will. Kind of counterintuitive, perhaps, but that's how I think.

That being said, Ooze is definitely the best green two-drop for Nic Fit at the moment. I might put him in just as a purely offensive bro -- never use him on myself, but he'd usually have something to eat from the opponent I guess.

Strangleroot isn't awful. I don't think it's where I really want to be, but it's not awful.

Goyf is not an option on the table. Card is awful.

The problem with Teeg is primarily that I absolutely hate turning off my Green Suns. Nic Fit is, in my mind, a very Green Sun oriented deck. If you're playing Nic Fit, unless you're doing something different within the archetype, you're playing the best Green Sun deck in the format, and your list should reflect that. Even if Teeg hurts other decks sufficiently, turning off one of the best cards in your deck is a no-no to me. Also, I've been burned before by running Teeg alongside 4-drop combo hate (Slaughter Games / Cranial Extraction, Nether Void, Tsunami, etc), and I'd rather have the 4-drop effect.

The reason for 2x Courser in the first place, by the way, was because you wanted to draw one naturally. You don't want to have to use a GSZ to get him in play, but he's still a card that you want to have in the deck and you want to get out. That kind of requires him to be a 2-of. He was strong enough that it may be correct to rethink that a little, though -- he might be fine to actually Zenith for.

[sdematt]

Fair, but he's the nutters against Miracles and Combo, so you have to balance that out.

Why Sakura Tribe Elder, besides being a badass? Is it your backup in case Vet doesn't go off?

-Matt

[Arianrhod]

Fair, but he's the nutters against Miracles and Combo, so you have to balance that out.

Why Sakura Tribe Elder, besides being a badass? Is it your backup in case Vet doesn't go off?

-Matt

Sakura has a lot of random small utilities that add up to being an all-star. He's a 5th ramp guy, he blocks Batterskull like a champ, and he has very strong synergies with Meren and Nightmare (even if he isn't getting lands at that point in the game). The biggest reason, though, is that I tried running without him in a white list that was otherwise perfectly positioned for a couple months, and I had enough mana problems that I put him back in afterwards and never looked back. Since I run my lists a little top-heavier than most, I really like having the 5th ramp creature -- it smooths things out quite nicely in my experience.

[sdematt]

I just don't think I have the slots to put him in the game. I'm running more removal than you are, so I can't seem to squeeze in Baneslayers, Nightmare, or the Tribe Elder. I'll keep moving stuff around and seeing what happens, though.

-Matt

[Warden]

@ Arianrhod: Nice write-up. I didn't make it down to Mythic, but I would have loved to tinker with your list.
I think the 2 drop you're looking for may be Shriekmaw. He provides removal, which combos with Meren of Clan Nel Toth, while also being a big stupid thing later in the game.

@List: Personally, I would run a lot more fetch lands. Kruphix only gets better with them (both in "seeing more of the deck" and playing more physical lands). They also work better with DRS. I've experimented into Nic Fit and found DRS to be okay. I would run 8 fetches with 2 DRS/2 Courser in the mix.

I also find Sensei's Top to be perfect for my playstyle over Library for Nic Fit. I understand the raw value of Library, but find SDT to be stronger, especially when Deed in on board. Less collateral from Deed @2.

Sun Titan is a tough call. He's strong af. But you also need to be playing the right opponents/archetypes all day. I like this list (several months old) for what BGw Nic Fit can accomplish - http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17576&iddeck=132268. Meleren obviously being a better call than some of the inclusions Vidranski had access to. Ignore the SB, as that's its own discussion. I picture the shell of BGw Nic Fit as: Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Top, Zenith, Decay, [swords or path], handful of bombs.

[sdematt]

But Top is card selection, not card draw. Typically, in games with Library, you draw an extra 3-5 cards. That's not chump change.

-Matt

[Paranoid__Android]

Sun Titan is a tough call. He's strong af. But you also need to be playing the right opponents/archetypes all day. I like this list (several months old) for what BGw Nic Fit can accomplish - http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17576&iddeck=132268. Meleren obviously being a better call than some of the inclusions Vidranski had access to. Ignore the SB, as that's its own discussion. I picture the shell of BGw Nic Fit as: Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Top, Zenith, Decay, [swords or path], handful of bombs.[/QUOTE]


Hey, that's me! Haha! :D

Had a great fun time playing that version. And sideboard was built right before the event, aka hangover sideboard building. :D

[uncletiggy]

@arianrhod I think the 2 drops selection at this point fror you comes down entirely to playstyle. Your build is a more traditional large evaisive hard to answer threats that ignore your opponent and grind. Currently your zeniths are dead in almost all combo matches teeg doesn't fit your play style and scooze can do work vs storm seems best case senario.

[sdematt]

Scooze can also win Goyf wars, DRS wars, and against Snapcaster he's great. I really want to run 2, but again, no fucking slots. Bastard deck construction.

-Matt

[uncletiggy]

Tell me about it i can't find room for witness, courser and geist i have to pick one. I don't want to cut a rhino and my flexs spots are currently filled with f charm g charm and mentor. My play style and deck construction skews me more towards a "big maverick/rock" style with a much lower top end then the rest of the nic fitters.

[Arianrhod]

So far I've decided I'm cutting a Courser for a Pulse. I thought long and hard about cutting the 2nd, but decided to leave it for now.

At the moment I'm reconsidering Sun Titan, which is VERY hard for me to do because I have a perpetual love affair with that card. There is literally nothing more I love to do in magic than Titan+Deeding people. In any format. With the new printings of Nissa and Meren, though, I'm being forced to actually considering cutting Sunny T for the first time basically ever :-(

I'll keep everyone posted as I tune up the last couple slots.

[Dadadot]

Just wondering if it is really necessary to include sakura tribe elder bc of meren. I played with her on cockatrice and just taking a creature back from the graveyard to your hand seemed really strong. In my mind it's like that: For her to actually reanimate 3 cmc+ stuff end of turn she needs to be in play a lot longer than you can reasonably expect so you can call it a "win more" thing.
(Also i think tribe elder is really bad. The pridemage for reclamation sage in abzan i can understand which i still find kinda clunky - as a fuel for the meren counters -)
Wouldn't a undying/persist combo (strangleroot geist, the black 1 cmc dude with landfall or kitchen finks) with phyrexian tower or similar be more selfsufficient without meren and very strong with her?


Opinions?

[Echelon]

I repeat - Eternal Witness and Diabolic Intent. Or Eternal Witness and Phyrexian Tower.

Ticks up the experience counters and lets you generate some nice CA.

[Dadadot]

Yeah, that seems good but it's very conditional (meren on the board, witness and intent in hand and no disruption on the other side of the table. also there needs to be stuff in your graveyard too besides some fetches and a explorer).
In my mind it's like goblin guide for burn players: If you attack (take back a creature) two rounds with it you usually win. Saying: I expect meren to be on the board or able to use her ability for 2 rounds on average. For me the reanimation part isn't really a goal (more like an ultimate on a utility planeswalker).

[Echelon]

Yeah, that seems good but it's very conditional (meren on the board, witness and intent in hand and no disruption on the other side of the table).
In my mind it's like goblin guide for burn players: If you attack (take back a creature) two rounds with it you usually win. Saying: I expect meren to be on the board or able to use her ability for 2 rounds on average. For me the reanimation part isn't really a goal (more like an ultimate on a utility planeswalker).

Witness and Intent don't have to be in the yard. Intent can be in your GY for all you care, Witness can be GSZ'd or also in your yard. Just wait with dropping/GSZ'ing Meren until you hit the late game and then just grind out the value. Heck, if need be you can Intent Meren to tutor up Eternal Witness and start the engine from there.

You can also up the count of Intents in the deck to 2 or even 3. Conditionality can be fixed to a degree, be creative.

[Ralf]

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for such detailed report and congratz for the overall result.

Here are some food for thoughts while doing your homeworks (aka: improving your list):


1) I agree with a former post in that I believe your mana base could be reworked:

Actually, you are @ 15 green sources, 12 black and white sources.
With something like below, you could even improve the numbers to 16 green, 14 black and 13 white sources.
If you really want to keep your phyrexian tower, I believe you could go -1 Windswept heath +1 Phyrexian.

As aforementioned, playing Top + Courser + Sylvan is asking for having as much as library manipulations as possible.

Furthermore, 13/14 black sources is, IMHO, mandatory when looking at sideboard options.

2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Taiga


2) As much as Nissa and Sun Titan look appealing, I think you are getting cute.

I won't deny the sheer power of both but while looking at legacy scene right now; I don't think you need them in our 75/76.
- Nissa won't provide any effect until you reach 7 lands (save the CIP trigger).
- If you get to resolve a Sun Titan, I think, you are already in a very good shape to take over the game. So basically, it appears more as a "win-more" option than anything else.

* We have debated several times about Savenging Ooze and I'm still encouraging its inclusion. That card should really be in any Nic Fit list (75/76) as its utility is unique among the whole legacy card pool. This little bastard has won me more games in the long run than any other Nic Fit bombs.

** For combo matchups, I think we need a 1-of "cheap" beater or we are just bound to be a hatebear deck G2 & G3.
I share your feeling about Tarmo and looking at a lot of abzan list, we deserve a better option:
As a matter of fact, Knight of the Reliquary might be the tool we are looking for:
- It can grow fast
- It doubles up the S&T hate when you have access to Karakas / It can get your utility lands.


3) Drawing cards

Sylvan Library is a fantastic card but you might want to test your list replacing it with Painful Truth because:
- I believe you already have enough library manipulation with 3 Tops
- It could stand in the way of Pernicious Deed
- It is another "slow" engine

I think we could argue for hours and Sylvan Library might be the best choice in a vacuum and I know you worship flexibility above everything so that you might end up playing "abzan charm" instead.

Anyway, drawing 3 cards for 3 mana & life is a hell of a deal.
During testing, I found that this very card has mitigated those kind of opening 7: "4 lands + 3 business spells" where you keep drawing lands during the first two or three turns.

Nevertheless, in order to reach a significant impact, I wouldn't play less than 2 (considering that 3 might be the optimal number but not in this list).


4) Here is the revamped list:

2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Taiga


4 Veteran explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura tribe elder
1 Pridemage Qasali
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
2 Baneslayer
1 Sigarda


3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith

3 Sensei's divining top


SB: 2 Ethersworn canonist
SB: 2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1 Golgari charm
SB: 3 Slaughter games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vindicate / Abrupt decay / Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil


* Tsunami is too narrow to my taste
** I don't think we should pass on Liliana. This card has a very wide application and can trump a lot of control/combo MU.

[Dadadot]

I get what you are saying. She wins games late especially with the right cards.
What I am sayin is she doesn't need to bring creatures back to battlefield to be strong.
As people above mentioned it's very hard to change the list if you already have a tight build. Most people are probably willing to change 1 or two cards or maybe more if they want to throw out one specific strategy.
I'm looking for opinions on slight changes to the different nic fit build including meren. I don't want to go overboard.

[supremePINEAPPLE]

I was playing a slightly modified version of arianrhod's list against deathblade and I was using a Painful Truths instead of Meren due to her not being online yet. The card felt really good and was critical in helping to out-grind big Jace. I'll definitely be keeping a close eye on the card going forward. That extra card means way more than I thought it did when compared to Night's Whisper.

[gth842s]

Does anyone have experience with the Lands matchup? What is safe to take out of the deck? How do you usually sideboard? I'm on Rhino Fit right now.

[ironclad8690]

Does anyone have experience with the Lands matchup? What is safe to take out of the deck? How do you usually sideboard? I'm on Rhino Fit right now.

My sideboard has 3 surgicals, so I bring those in. I trim a cabal therapy, because I still like to some to set off vet ex. I also cut a gaddock teeg, because he does basically nothing, and 1 abrupt decay (3 deed, 2 decay, 3 path to exile left in the main).

Path to exile may not seem good, but I have found it to be necssary to buy time if they make a quick lage.

The combo version is harder to beat than the control version.

You can put armageddon in your board (which also doubles as miracles hate) If you are really worried about the matchup.

[sdematt]

For lands, you want your hexproof creatures to beat Maze, and Rhino loops mean you don't need to use the combat step (also getting around Maze). Path helps to beat the 20/20/slows them down enough.

It's not the best matchup, and combo is definitely worse than control. Decay is slightly bad, Deed can be better since you can wipe all the Moxen/Explorations/etc. out. Needle out of the board is very good, and that's why I also play it.

Also, my thoughts on this list:


2 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Taiga


4 Veteran explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura tribe elder
1 Pridemage Qasali
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
2 Baneslayer
1 Sigarda


3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Abrupt Decay

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith

3 Sensei's divining top


SB: 2 Ethersworn canonist
SB: 2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 1 Golgari charm
SB: 3 Slaughter games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vindicate / Abrupt decay / Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil

I don't think this is too shabby, but there may be an underestimation of playing more removal. Seems like I'm on more removal than most, but otherwise, I agree with this potential setup (sideboard notwithstanding). Truths is very good. Play the card, please.

[Ralf]

@Matt: The list I have provided is not tested...at all. And I tried to keep Kevin's spirit in it at all cost.

Just a very rough idea of some tuning Kevin might want to explore. By no means am I saying that this is the list to play.

My list has been posted a few pages back as I like having more games against combo MD.
But I am not closed to any ideas/lists focused on beating fair deck G1 and bringing a lot of hate postboard to fight back against combo decks.

Kevin might be right with the path he tooks (just watch Lejay's take on shardless)

The more competitive any list can be the happier I am.

Ps: kicking ass with Baneslayer looks sexy !!