[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Bobmans]

Two words. Gaea's Cradle! Just add in Primeval Titan to fetch up Kessig Wolf Run and a Dryad Arbor.

I might have to mention that the creature type is: Elf Ally
#Elfball

[Echelon]

Meh, for 4 mana I'd just as well cast Natural Order.

Anyways... What are your thoughts on Merens/Karadors potential play buddies?

[rubblekill]

Meh, for 4 mana I'd just as well cast Natural Order.

Anyways... What are your thoughts on Merens/Karadors potential play buddies?

In my personal opinion it is too cute and requires too many stars to align to work.
I am starting to feel like, in this thread, I am the guy that ruins the party. That is because I am inclined to avoid cool legends and less-consistent-but cool interactions.

[Echelon]

In my personal opinion it is too cute and requires too many stars to align to work.
I am starting to feel like, in this thread, I am the guy that ruins the party. That is because I am inclined to avoid cool legends and less-consistent-but cool interactions.

You're the guy suggesting Chains of Mephistoles and several planeswalkers on the previous page. I don't think the image you have of yourself is correct.

[rubblekill]

You're the guy suggesting Chains of Mephistoles and several planeswalkers on the previous page. I don't think the image you have of yourself is correct.

I believe it is a better sideboard option. However I do not think that that interaction is what we want to be doing. No hard feelings dude.

E: I dont see anything weird playing pw, especially in the online meta

[Echelon]

No hard feelings dude.

I'm a honey badger. Take from that what you will.

[Bobmans]

We have a local league and after 9 evenings we play a top 8.

I won that top 8 this Friday with the following list:

Meren didn't live long, but always replaced herself, got a Rhino back, a Qasali against all those artifact. Got swords everytime. Mostly only AFTER I got a card back. Which was good since the swords was wasted on her and not on the rhino.

Grats on your result. Keep it up. And thanks for your sharing your experience with Meren.

[Bobmans]

11-04-2016:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truth's

1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Pithing Needle


DP warning. After some tinkering i have settled for a PFire list. Coming weekend i'll be taking it out for a spin and tomorrow some testing with a friend. Not sure if he's gonna play RG Lands or Ubg Turbo Depth's, but it will be very hard to win from. Next to this some games against BUG Delver, the always interesting grindy MU. But what is not with PFire NicFit...

I have settled for 2x Stormbreath Dragon in favor of Thrun and Primeval Titan. That means i have to run 2 basic mountains. Also in previous testing of SBD i found that with a 22 land manabase of which 2 lands are colorless it put to much strain on it and i wish there was a 23th land. Because Meren showed up, i am gonna test running 7 basics and not bringing Volrath's Stronghold. The biggest benefit of SDB in favor of Thrun and PrimeTime is it's combination of Haste, Flying and Protection from white, which makes it strong against both Swords to Plowshares and Liliana/Jace. Aside from those, there are few decks that have to tools to effectively deal with SDB and most of the times resolving them results in a win.

[Echelon]

DP warning.

That means something very different to those with a dirty mind.

Also, you're too light on initial black manasources. I only count 11 where you'd want 14. You could switch a Forest for a Swamp (at least when counting initial sources. You've got a very demanding list with GG, BB and RR among the costs). And perhaps cut down on a Grove of the Burning Willies for a Badlands (you can't go any lower on initial red sources but gain enough life with DRS/Scavenging Ooze to trigger PFires) or an extra fetchland. That would get you up to 13 initial black sources while keeping the other sources on par.

[sdematt]

DP warning. After some tinkering i have settled for a PFire list. Coming weekend i'll be taking it out for a spin and tomorrow some testing with a friend. Not sure if he's gonna play RG Lands or Ubg Turbo Depth's, but it will be very hard to win from. Next to this some games against BUG Delver, the always interesting grindy MU. But what is not with PFire NicFit...

I have settled for 2x Stormbreath Dragon in favor of Thrun and Primeval Titan. That means i have to run 2 basic mountains. Also in previous testing of SBD i found that with a 22 land manabase of which 2 lands are colorless it put to much strain on it and i wish there was a 23th land. Because Meren showed up, i am gonna test running 7 basics and not bringing Volrath's Stronghold. The biggest benefit of SDB in favor of Thrun and PrimeTime is it's combination of Haste, Flying and Protection from white, which makes it strong against both Swords to Plowshares and Liliana/Jace. Aside from those, there are few decks that have to tools to effectively deal with SDB and most of the times resolving them results in a win.


3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Stormbreath Dragon

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Kolaghan's Command
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage


I was just thinking about Dragon again. It's hard fitting in all the sweet cards, but this has most of everything that I want. I might personally shave a Liliana for a Truths and try to squeeze in that new Elf. Definitely worth trying.

[mdoepker]

Looking to get into legacy, have loved nic fit for a while now, specifically pod and all the abzan decks. My question is how viable is Abzan pod (is bug pod just better)? It seems to me like Abzan pod can play similar to the old modern angel pod deck, plus it gets access to academy rector tutoring up pernicious deeds and recurring nightmares. If anyone has an abzan pod list they've been playing, how is it working out?

[Bobmans]

That means something very different to those with a dirty mind.

Also, you're too light on initial black manasources. I only count 11 where you'd want 14. You could switch a Forest for a Swamp (at least when counting initial sources. You've got a very demanding list with GG, BB and RR among the costs). And perhaps cut down on a Grove of the Burning Willies for a Badlands (you can't go any lower on initial red sources but gain enough life with DRS/Scavenging Ooze to trigger PFires) or an extra fetchland. That would get you up to 13 initial black sources while keeping the other sources on par.

Yes, your thoughts are yours ;-)

Luckily the deck can fully rely on it's basic lands, because of it's numbers. 6 was wrong. and 1 Mountain was to. Often it is easy to prioritize the double color requirements, being BB, then GG and last RR. Depending on the game/hand it can sometimes be GG, BB and then RR. Typically you'd want Bayou, Forest and Swamp (in any order) followed by Mountain, Grove or Grove, Mountain. Most of the time your able to land this configuration (or something similar). A 7th fetch should fix any possible flaws more then another dual. It is not so much the actual sources, but more the path's leading to it. Grove is an exception here, since you need it for your PFire combo and it cannot be fetched. Getting the combo only is so important that i would not go lower then 4. Going for Swamp 3 over Forest 3 is also dangerous since G is the most important color for the deck. Playing out the manabase with this deck can be difficult to achieve, but it is often pretty doable. Thinking about the evaluation of my signature list, i think that this manabase is as close as it gets from being perfect.

[Ralf]

Looking to get into legacy, have loved nic fit for a while now, specifically pod and all the abzan decks. My question is how viable is Abzan pod (is bug pod just better)? It seems to me like Abzan pod can play similar to the old modern angel pod deck, plus it gets access to academy rector tutoring up pernicious deeds and recurring nightmares. If anyone has an abzan pod list they've been playing, how is it working out?

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=918225&viewfull=1#post918225) you might be able to find what you are looking for.

Start with 2 veteran and a 3rd forest (cutting fleshbag marauder + a marsh flat).
You can also include a Dragonlord Dromoka instead of the Gaddock MD and call it a day.

Nahiri (SB) can be whatever planeswalker you like as she is currently being tested:
- Dragonlord Dromoka / Thragtusk can take her slot if you like
- Garruk (relentless or Primal Hunter) can also be an option
- Ajani (Mentor of Heroes) could also be another potential idea

The list is pretty tight right now (and has been heavily tested to some pretty good results) and "cutties" have been cut (rector package for example) to better stick to the meta.

Anyway, I suggest this list as a starting point if you are willing to try.
We could talk about "tweaks" afterwards (once you get a good grip with it).

[Bobmans]

I was just thinking about Dragon again. It's hard fitting in all the sweet cards, but this has most of everything that I want. I might personally shave a Liliana for a Truths and try to squeeze in that new Elf. Definitely worth trying.
O M G, i am testing a couple of rounds with a friend. This deck is so freaking sic. Meren turns it into a monster. SBD Monstrosity in a turn. I looped veteran explorer into basics firing of 4 Cabal Therapies and launching SBD. Turn after it become monstrous with 3 cards on hand. Liliana helped to get the last explorer trigger by self targetting. just wow. Try it. It is amazing.

Edit: jep, that was a screaming orgasm.

[Brael]

After a pretty harsh thrashing at last weeks Legacy night (my worst small tournament result in 2 years) I'm realizing that I just don't have enough removal. Ended up going 1-2-1 with my win being a bye, losses to Burn and Infect, and a draw with Miracles (I won game 1, he won game 2 in his final extra turn). I didn't help matters much that I screwed up every single Cabal Therapy call (not just that I missed, which I did on every call... in hindsight I objectively called the wrong card each and every time) but the real issue was a lack of removal. So I've been thinking about how to fix that, Path is of course excellent but I've felt like there just aren't many slots in this deck for removal so I'm looking at modal removal spells instead. I'm thinking about turning my Painful Truths into an Abzan Charm, but I'm also thinking about making one of my removal slots a Dromoka's Command. Does anyone have experience with that card? There's a handful of enchantments it hits like Counterbalance, it has utility against Lightning Bolt or other burn, and I can even use it as a sacrifice outlet of sorts with Veteran Explorer with the fight.

This is what I was thinking of for a list this week.
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Abzan Charm
2 Path to Exile

Enchantment 4
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 15
Not sure yet

Also, I'm really liking Meren, she's completely replaced Recurring Nightmare for me now. I almost feel like I want a second just because of exile effects and how good she is.

[Ricardio]

After a pretty harsh thrashing at last weeks Legacy night (my worst small tournament result in 2 years) I'm realizing that I just don't have enough removal. Ended up going 1-2-1 with my win being a bye, losses to Burn and Infect, and a draw with Miracles (I won game 1, he won game 2 in his final extra turn). I didn't help matters much that I screwed up every single Cabal Therapy call (not just that I missed, which I did on every call... in hindsight I objectively called the wrong card each and every time) but the real issue was a lack of removal. So I've been thinking about how to fix that, Path is of course excellent but I've felt like there just aren't many slots in this deck for removal so I'm looking at modal removal spells instead. I'm thinking about turning my Painful Truths into an Abzan Charm, but I'm also thinking about making one of my removal slots a Dromoka's Command. Does anyone have experience with that card? There's a handful of enchantments it hits like Counterbalance, it has utility against Lightning Bolt or other burn, and I can even use it as a sacrifice outlet of sorts with Veteran Explorer with the fight.

This is what I was thinking of for a list this week.
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Abzan Charm
2 Path to Exile

Enchantment 4
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 15
Not sure yet

Also, I'm really liking Meren, she's completely replaced Recurring Nightmare for me now. I almost feel like I want a second just because of exile effects and how good she is.

Pulse and vindicate are much better than charm and command. Also try painful truth.

[Brael]

Pulse and vindicate are much better than charm and command. Also try painful truth.

I was using it and liked it, I just switched it to an Abzan Charm though to squeeze in more removal while still maintaining some card draw. Pulse and Vindicate are both 3 drops when I'm trying to get the curve a bit lower. I do usually run a Pulse SB though.

[BeardTron]

Concerning Dryad Arbor in Junk version: Benefits/Negatives?

With Meren, I've cut Volrath and deciding whether a 9th fetch or Dryad would be "better" ...

[Echelon]

Concerning Dryad Arbor in Junk version: Benefits/Negatives?

With Meren, I've cut Volrath and deciding whether a 9th fetch or Dryad would be "better" ...

May I refer you to page 131 of this topic?

Also, I prefer the 10 fetch + Arbor manabase (near the bottom of page 137).

On a side note: I'm playing with the idea of switching a Forest for a second Phyrexian Tower. It keeps me at 14/14/14 initial green/black/white sources but increases the chance of the explosive T2. Also, Meren and Karador play extremely well with sac outlets. Think along the lines of attack with Rhino, sac Rhino, recur Rhino, rince and repeat. Suddenly your Rhino hits for 7 damage per turn. It's really the only thing I missed last saturday.

Another option would be replacing a DRS with a Starved Rusalka. GSZ'able 1-mana instant speed sac outlet. I'm crazy. Or drunk on Rhino-power.

[sdematt]

Likely drinking too much Rhino-juice, but Rhino is powerful, and fun as hell. I'm a big fan of having fun while playing Legacy now, since I don't get to play as often anymore.

-Matt

[Echelon]

Likely drinking too much Rhino-juice, but Rhino is powerful, and fun as hell. I'm a big fan of having fun while playing Legacy now, since I don't get to play as often anymore.

-Matt

Meh, I'll drink whatever juice the Rhino gives me to drink. I honestly do think Meren and Karador give us some new design space to explore, hence the craziness. I'm not completely sure yet on where to draw the line of what's helpful and acceptable and when it becomes banking too much on Meren/Karador. I do feel there's some wiggling room there.

[rubblekill]

Likely drinking too much Rhino-juice, but Rhino is powerful, and fun as hell. I'm a big fan of having fun while playing Legacy now, since I don't get to play as often anymore.

-Matt

It's the same for me, after trying all the decks in the format this is the one that allows to have fun the most. I mean I got to beat a miracles player with a flying rhino ffs.
And I must say: I initially thought that the deck would be crap in terms of power level, but now I believe that people just underestimate nic fit more than it deserves. I dont have the green fetches online and I'm beating people while running 4 evolving wilds..

Back on topic: I started to play this deck with a 4-1 split between veteran and drs, and gradually transitioned to a 3-3 configuration. Drs is one of my best friends, I have won so many games thanks to him and adds fixing and inevitability imo. To you all experts of the deck: what configuration do you play with and what's best for you?

[Echelon]

I run a 4-3 configuration. I bank on Vet Ex a lot. But I do run more sac outlets than most (and plan on adding even more). Yes, a late game Vet Ex sucks big hairy balls but first you'll have to get there for that to matter. Popping a Vet Ex is normally one of the most important things I do during a game, best I make the chance of that happening as big as possible.

DRS I use mostly as a lightning rod for spotremoval or to buy more time.

[sdematt]

Well, whatever wins does work, but I think we can say Rhino and Sigarda are effective cards.

@Rubble

I think 4-3, 4-2, and 3-3 are all fine configurations. I've played 4-2 and 3-3 and liked both. I'm currently on 4-2 in most builds. I don't have the slots for 4-3.

As for Jund...

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 New Taiga Elf
16

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
7

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
16

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
22

SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Planeswalker slot
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage

[Echelon]

Rhino and Sigarda are never leaving my 60. I am, however, going to drop a DRS and stick in a Starved Rusalka and see how that works. Or Varolz, the Scar-Striped. Costs 2 mana more, but scavenge might come in handy.

[Jain_Mor]

@Brael, cut the libraries for truthe. You already have 3 tops for deck manipulation and truths are far mor effecient for card advantage than library (it's not like mana is an issue), plus truths don't die to deed, decay or wear//tear.

I've also thought about dromokas command a lot, but I really had to stretch to make it even sound good in my head, so I'd cut that for the 3rd decay, and then the Abzan charm can be whatever you like or stay as is

@rubblekill, I started with big hype on DRS 4-1 in favour of him, coming off from junk midrange but I've gradually gone all the way round to 0-4 in favor of vet, I just never really gsun for shaman, found that the easiest way to win against a lot of decks is pernicious deed and shaman dying to it is annoying, having more than 4 copies of graveyard dependent ramp sucks against RIP etc also found that SFM is my early play/lightning rod of choice, and she makes topdecked explorers into threats etc

That said my biggest gripe with this deck is that my goyfs shamans Lillianas and bobs are just collecting dust, if you had told me there was green one drop that would make change my deck so much I would stop playing with all that insane power, I would have called you silly and sent you on your way.

Finally, I don't have any three drops I really wanna cast turn 2, so with Lillianas he makes a lot of sense

[Bobmans]

Well, whatever wins does work, but I think we can say Rhino and Sigarda are effective cards.

@Rubble

I think 4-3, 4-2, and 3-3 are all fine configurations. I've played 4-2 and 3-3 and liked both. I'm currently on 4-2 in most builds. I don't have the slots for 4-3.

As for Jund...

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 New Taiga Elf
16

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
7

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Painful Truths
16

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
22

SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Planeswalker slot
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
Looks good, some things tho;

0 LilianaaaaaAAAAHHH.. how so?

1 Basic Mountain. Take this from me, the situation occurs pretty often that you NEED to fetch the 2 (or 2nd) Basic Mountain with Veteran Explorer in order to cast Stormbreath Dragon. Running SBD means you really want that 2nd Mountain.

Mina and Denn: i am not convinced of this card yet. The body is decend. 4/4 and out of decay reach. Also it can potentially speed up the game with Courser. But with Courser AND Meren we are already forced to durdle longer before we actually start the pounding. And Courser is already doing a decend job at speeding things up. Trample may be a win in a small! number of occassions. And the card has the potential of protecting lands vs wasteland. But are we really looking for that?

[rubblekill]

@Brael, cut the libraries for truthe. You already have 3 tops for deck manipulation and truths are far mor effecient for card advantage than library (it's not like mana is an issue), plus truths don't die to deed, decay or wear//tear.

I've also thought about dromokas command a lot, but I really had to stretch to make it even sound good in my head, so I'd cut that for the 3rd decay, and then the Abzan charm can be whatever you like or stay as is

@rubblekill, I started with big hype on DRS 4-1 in favour of him, coming off from junk midrange but I've gradually gone all the way round to 0-4 in favor of vet, I just never really gsun for shaman, found that the easiest way to win against a lot of decks is pernicious deed and shaman dying to it is annoying, having more than 4 copies of graveyard dependent ramp sucks against RIP etc also found that SFM is my early play/lightning rod of choice, and she makes topdecked explorers into threats etc

That said my biggest gripe with this deck is that my goyfs shamans Lillianas and bobs are just collecting dust, if you had told me there was green one drop that would make change my deck so much I would stop playing with all that insane power, I would have called you silly and sent you on your way.

Finally, I don't have any three drops I really wanna cast turn 2, so with Lillianas he makes a lot of sense

But the thing is: your equipments die to deed as well (except bs)! Drs is the perfect answer to lands, reanimator, dredge and burn g1, and I have managed to beat these decks g1 solely thanks to him (imo these are not good mu for us so a gsz-able answer like drs is a must in my experience). But to each their own, the fact that nic fit is not a set in stone 75(76) is one of its many fascinating aspects

[Jain_Mor]

But the thing is: your equipments die to deed as well (except bs)! Drs is the perfect answer to lands, reanimator, dredge and burn g1, and I have managed to beat these decks g1 solely thanks to him (imo these are not good mu for us so a gsz-able answer like drs is a must in my experience). But to each their own, the fact that nic fit is not a set in stone 75(76) is one of its many fascinating aspects

I don't run Jitte because it does die to deed, but the swords don't really (how often do you really need to deed for 3? especially if you're the one with the sword in play..), and SoFaI fulfills the "kill weenies" role that Jitte plays reasonably well.

DRS is a reasonable answer to dredge and lands, and good answer to reanimator, but it's really at its best as a 1 drop, not a 2 drop off of gsun to be activated on turn 3. So for me Drs is really an all or nothing kind of guy, run 4 cause he's great in your deck or don't. Could persuade me down to 3.

But yea, I'm always running back and forth on nic fit, both frustrating and exciting, I'm sure next year I'll be running shaman again -.- and I love coming here and seeing what everyone else is doing with it :)

[Brael]

@Brael, cut the libraries for truthe. You already have 3 tops for deck manipulation and truths are far mor effecient for card advantage than library (it's not like mana is an issue), plus truths don't die to deed, decay or wear//tear.

I've also thought about dromokas command a lot, but I really had to stretch to make it even sound good in my head, so I'd cut that for the 3rd decay, and then the Abzan charm can be whatever you like or stay as is


The libraries were also there to work with Courser for free card advantage but I see what you're saying. I'll give that a try.

[Nithkar]

Mina and Denn: i am not convinced of this card yet. The body is decend. 4/4 and out of decay reach. Also it can potentially speed up the game with Courser. But with Courser AND Meren we are already forced to durdle longer before we actually start the pounding. And Courser is already doing a decend job at speeding things up. Trample may be a win in a small! number of occassions. And the card has the potential of protecting lands vs wasteland. But are we really looking for that?

I was starting to think i was the only one not seeing the appeal of these twins. Is a 4/4 half Oracle of mull daya what we want to be doing? Is trample that usefull in jund?

Enviado de meu XT1225 usando Tapatalk

[pettdan]

@Mina and Denn, Wildborn: this seems to be a relatively weak card, to me [edit: to mee too, sorry I somehow missed Bobman's post which I agree with in more words below].

It's pretty good next to a Courser of Kruphix. That is however entirely due to the Courser, since it is the Courser that provides the card advantage.

By itself, Mina and Denn does very little. You already have four lands in play when you can play it. You're mostly happy with 5-6 lands in play to execute your game plan, Mina and Denn allows you to play land number 5 and 6 one turn quicker for the cost of a card slot. It does not provide any card advantage or life gain. If this was very good we could play Explore, which is actually a cantrip.

I would rather add a second copy of Courser, a fourth copy of SDT or a first/second copy of Sylvan Library before adding the first copy of Mina and Denn to a decklist.

Also, it is vulnerable to Karakas, which we don't need in the Miracles or D&T matchups.

On the upside, it does come as a GSZ-able 4/4 creature, which is pretty good. And being able to present two lands a turn with an active Courser does allow you to pull away quickly. When playing Punishing Fit with Burning Wishes a while ago I was able to reanimate an opposing Oracle of Mul Daya which really allowed my to pull away in that game. So I may be wrong on this one. Speaking of which, doesn't Oracle seem better than Mina and Denn, too? It's like a Courser AND a Mina and Denn. Only problem is 2 toughness, of course. Can't have it all.

[RokiLothbard]

Hey.

Apologies if this doesn't count as Nic Fit. And apologies if it looks too casual. It's bad against storm, but LGS meta is >70% Jund, D&T, Elves, and various flavors of Delver.

I think the name might be already taken, but I call it Planeswalker Nic Fit. Besides doofus beatdown, Planeswalkers are only win condition. I think it's sort of in the grey area between a real deck and a fun deck.

Sideboard definitely a work in progress.

2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Altar's Reap
2 Brainstorm
1 Recoil
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gaea's Blessing
2 Ponder
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Temporal Spring
1 Vindicate

1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Mana Confluence
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Powersink
1 Counterspell
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wasteland
1 Life From the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Thragtusk
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Meddling Mage
1 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize

[Echelon]

Hey.

Apologies if this doesn't count as Nic Fit. And apologies if it looks too casual. It's bad against storm, but LGS meta is >70% Jund, D&T, Elves, and various flavors of Delver.

I think the name might be already taken, but I call it Planeswalker Nic Fit. Besides doofus beatdown, Planeswalkers are only win condition. I think it's sort of in the grey area between a real deck and a fun deck.

Sideboard definitely a work in progress.
...decklist...

I think this is the kind of deck that fucks its pilot in the ass far too often to be enjoyable in any form or way.

Let's start with the manabase. You start off with 14 initial green manasources, which is right on the money, but drop down from there. This means you'll lose enough games to not having the right mana at the right time. That's the first red flag.

Then, to compensate for the high mana drops your deck wants to drop you somehow forego Cabal Therapy, taking away the Veteran Explorer + Cabal Therapy (otherwise known as the only reason this deck is even somewhat viable). And rather than resort to standard, permanent answers you come up with shit like Recoil and Temporal Spring. So no cheap, effective removal to compensate for the lack of speed either.

Furthermore some of the planeswalkers in your list just suck ass (Ashiok, really..?) or are too expensive to reliably cast (Karn).

Also, Gaea's Blessing and Altar's Reap don't have any right to be in that list. If you want a 2 CMC sac outlet, use Diabolic Intent. At least that draws you exactly what you need.

I'd start with either reworking the manabase (with 10 fetches and 10 duals, you'll have 14 initial mana across the board, for instance. No basic lands though) or dropping 2 colours entirely and replacing Nevinyrral's Disk and Gaea's Blessing with 4 Cabal Therapy.

[Bobmans]

Hey.

Apologies if this doesn't count as Nic Fit. And apologies if it looks too casual. It's bad against storm, but LGS meta is >70% Jund, D&T, Elves, and various flavors of Delver.




I think this is the kind of deck that fucks its pilot in the ass far too often to be enjoyable in any form or way.

Lol'd.

Agree with this. I applaud the concept, but consistancy is troubling.

Walker Fit is a delicate thing to play. In your meta i'd personally choose PFire NicFit as it has a favorable MU against the mentioned decks. But since i enjoy these kind of concosions i'd try to wrap together something to get some brewing going.

Yesterday i played my PFire list and had loads of fun.

2-1 RG Lands
G2&3: won both games on the back of Blood Moon. Also i found Scooze to be a strong card in this MU, IF you van boost his toughness to 3 or 5 to get in the PFire safezone.

2-1 Miracles
G1: Gave it away cus i misplayed on my Cabal Therapy and resolved a Veteran trigger in his benefit. He could protect his Jace from therapy and cast it after untapping. Bad, play, went yolo on the Veteran, which is wrong in this MU.
G2: he commited suicide by playing a Blood Moon on 2 Island and 1 Mountain. He didnt find a Plains for a sometime while i had Swagtusk beating him to crap.
G3 (i mulled to 5): Very grindy. Extracted Jace, StP and Mentor, but still took me a while to empty his resources and i could beat him down with Huntmaster (which nicely flipped b4 1st attack).

2-0 Elves
G1&2 build mana, on crucial turn Therapy on NO, flash it on Craterhoof. Pernicous Deed to reset board and maintained control with spot removal. Meren in both games for beatdown assisted with 2 Explorers. Having Deed is really important here.

Pro's; Blood Moon. And basicly everything in this deck is soo juicy. loving it.
Cons; didnt see SBD once in every game.

The manabase felt good, only once i color fucked myself by fetching a second swamp next to swamp, forest while holding a E. Witness. Luckily i had top and could dig up another land + GSZ to have Courser online. There where moments i was thinking about Volrath's Stronghold, wondering what it could have done for me on sutuations.

Considerations: adding 1 Toxic Deluge, maybe for the 3rd Slaughter Games.
Sometimes, having 3 Deeds feels to few. Could also see PFire nr 4 MD instead. Not sure yet.

[Tom4ik]

That planeswalker fit deck is a mess. First get down to 3 colors. This will help your mana situation.
- Next, drop the things like recoil, alters reap etc. Add normal removal (decay, innocent blood) in place. Add therapy.
- Max out on BS and add ponder after that.
- Jace should be in the 3-4 range for this deck. I played 3 when I had a bug walkers type list. I also ran 2-3 lilies.
- I also had Flip-garruk but I was running 3 snapcasters so converting vets or strix into snap/tusk was fine if he flipped.
- I do not think I would play disk. It is very slow and you already have deed.
- If you go the blue route I might try to find room for fow. This gives you a slightly better combo game and also helps in that dropping a walker and fow the next threat lets the walker you played pull you ahead.
- The idea of vet plus walkers is totally valid but your list is certainly not tuned/tightened enough at this point.

[Bobmans]

Hey. WalkerFit


That planeswalker fit deck is a mess. First get down to 3 colors. This will help your mana situation.
- Next, drop the things like recoil, alters reap etc. Add normal removal (decay, innocent blood) in place. Add therapy.
- Max out on BS and add ponder after that.
- Jace should be in the 3-4 range for this deck. I played 3 when I had a bug walkers type list. I also ran 2-3 lilies.
- I also had Flip-garruk but I was running 3 snapcasters so converting vets or strix into snap/tusk was fine if he flipped.
- I do not think I would play disk. It is very slow and you already have deed.
- If you go the blue route I might try to find room for fow. This gives you a slightly better combo game and also helps in that dropping a walker and fow the next threat lets the walker you played pull you ahead.
- The idea of vet plus walkers is totally valid but your list is certainly not tuned/tightened enough at this point.

This,
i was actually looking for that list (i think) Tom posted not so long ago.

Anyhow i slammed the deck together to match this more or less. Perhaps it is a good starting point for you. I think Blue is THE color to look in, since Jace... 3 Colors is fine. 4 or more is pushing it. Plus, space is soo freakin tight in WalkerFit list. More then any other list i feel (yes even more tight then Pod lists).

The list has a total of 16 U mana, 17 G mana and 24 B mana. The manabase (excluding creatures, including fetches) counts 11 U, 13 B and 11 G mana sources. More U.sea because UU or BB will matter from midgame on.
The deck hass 13 blue cards MD, meaning you want to get to 20 U cards Post board.

Depending on your choice of Innocent Blood or Disfigure you can choose to bring Deathrite Shaman or not. That means you could bring extra Walkers (3rd Jace, 2nd Vraska) and 4th Strix.
4/3 Baleful Strix
0/3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Disfigure/Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
2/3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1/2 Vraska the Unseen
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Garruk Relentless

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Brainstorm

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB:
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
8 flex

[RokiLothbard]

Hey All.

Thanks for responses. I think I'll probably play with Bobmans list some to see how it feels to play an actually tuned version.

But what the hell, will discuss/defend some of my choices.

1) Just noticed that's only 58 cards. I left off 2 Birds of Paradise from my initial listing. Sorry about that. They do help with the mana/ramp aspects, although of course they do just eat removal some of the time as you'd expect.

2) Diabolic Intent will go in for Altar's Reap right away. The instant speed just hasn't mattered that much, and it's pretty much always the first card out for sideboarding. I totally forgot that card existed.

3) The weird removal is because with 4 Deeds and 2 Disks, permanents for the most part are not my decks problem. When they are, then "nonstandard" removal sometimes gets around the problem. And Temporal Springs and Recoil both hit lands, so if the Deeds and Disks do their jobs, they still have targets. And when these cards end up being tempo-only kind of removal that is still often good enough with even 1 Planeswalker in play.

4) Gaea's Blessing : Hey Now you are messing with one of my Pet Cards Damnit! I actually just like being able to tune my deck as the game plays. Getting wastelanded in the early game? Shuffle lands back in. Have nothing else to do on turn 2? Just casting the first one as a pure cantrip isn't the end of the world. Need to shuffle? just cast it. Playing against High Tide? Auto win game 1 (LOL, this actually happened last night). Mid game shuffling in a Ponder,Deed and a dead planeswalker is not a bad play.

5) Ahsiok. I'll admit if I were to cut one walker, he's probably the first out. BUT, turn 2(and sometimes 3) he is sometimes good against fair decks. If control/stabilization has been achieved, he is a win con. With 6 Sweepers, his ultimate is actually relevant sometimes as opponent has to play weird game between commiting enough to the board to fight planeswalkers, but not so much to get 5-for-1'd or something.

6) Cabal Therapy. Ya. I can see now that I'm missing out on what makes this deck playable in a "real" meta. My deck was kind of an experiment for my LGS "meta". Was pretty much pre-conceding to most forms of combo. I've actually never played the card. So I'll shut up now until I take Bobmans deck for a test drive.

[Echelon]

Hey All.

Thanks for responses. I think I'll probably play with Bobmans list some to see how it feels to play an actually tuned version.

But what the hell, will discuss/defend some of my choices.

...

3) The weird removal is because with 4 Deeds and 2 Disks, permanents for the most part are not my decks problem. When they are, then "nonstandard" removal sometimes gets around the problem. And Temporal Springs and Recoil both hit lands, so if the Deeds and Disks do their jobs, they still have targets. And when these cards end up being tempo-only kind of removal that is still often good enough with even 1 Planeswalker in play.

4) Gaea's Blessing : Hey Now you are messing with one of my Pet Cards Damnit! I actually just like being able to tune my deck as the game plays. Getting wastelanded in the early game? Shuffle lands back in. Have nothing else to do on turn 2? Just casting the first one as a pure cantrip isn't the end of the world. Need to shuffle? just cast it. Playing against High Tide? Auto win game 1 (LOL, this actually happened last night). Mid game shuffling in a Ponder,Deed and a dead planeswalker is not a bad play.

@3: The removal we play is in part there to deal with problems that Deed is too slow to handle in time. You can't just assume you'll make it to turn 4 when you spend all the time before that twiddling your thumbs. The cheaper removal suite we play is there to ensure we actually survive up to that point.

@4: If that's the best you have to do on any of your turns, you're doing it wrong.

[royalbasis]

Hello, I'm currently testing the punishing fit list Bobmans linked on p138, and I'm liking it this far, and I'm taking it to legacy fnm tonight.
I have a couple of questions regarding blood moon in the board. No doubt it is incredibly strong vs a wide variety of decks, but do you board it in only vs decks with close to no basics/straight up no basics like RUG Delver, or do you take it in where usual blood moon decks do, vs decks with a "few" basics and let them find them with Dora. Or do you board Dora out in these cases where moon is good and you don't want to give them basics? (seems weak/slow). Just trying to understand the intent behind the card in this deck particular deck, and how it differs from others.

Also, I'm pretty new to this deck, but I've been playing punishing jund for a good while so that's why I'm trying the punishing list first. I've been lurking for a while and I love the take on decks, developments and discussions you have here and just want to say thank you!

[Bobmans]

Hello, I'm currently testing the punishing fit list Bobmans linked on p138, and I'm liking it this far, and I'm taking it to legacy fnm tonight.
I have a couple of questions regarding blood moon in the board. No doubt it is incredibly strong vs a wide variety of decks, but do you board it in only vs decks with close to no basics/straight up no basics like RUG Delver, or do you take it in where usual blood moon decks do, vs decks with a "few" basics and let them find them with Dora. Or do you board Dora out in these cases where moon is good and you don't want to give them basics? (seems weak/slow). Just trying to understand the intent behind the card in this deck particular deck, and how it differs from others.

Also, I'm pretty new to this deck, but I've been playing punishing jund for a good while so that's why I'm trying the punishing list first. I've been lurking for a while and I love the take on decks, developments and discussions you have here and just want to say thank you!
Glad you like the list and hope it gets you some nice results. I have played Punishing Jund aswell, but favor this deck above it. It feels like i have way more control with this deck. That said, you still miss the power of Bolt, Hymn and Goyf sometimes.

Blood Moon is only in the sideboard to battle Lands.dec, meaning if RG lands isnt a thing i would replace them. The upside is that some other matchups suffer from Bloon to. Your question more or less covers the answers. Decks like BUG/RUG/BRUG delver run 0 basics. Obviously we'd have a favorable MU against those already, but i would bring it in as a one-off and obviously it does not conflict with Veteran Explorer. Now BUG (and BRUG) run DRS, so timing it is key. Bloon is only working if A. It doesnt conflict your PFire and B. He doesnt have an immediate out to it. Shardless and Blade control decks are different in the way that those decks run basics. But resolving Veteran Explorer against those is often better then playing slow to launch Bloon. I might board Bloons in game 3 depending on G1/2, but i decide that on the fly. Lastly, do not forget decks like Infect, Turbo Eldrazi, MUD and Aggro Loam that also suffer from Bloon. Depending on your meta you can always change the Bloon's for something lile REB or Garruk Relentless (control) and/or Choke.

i was wondering how you like Stormbreath Dragon so far?

[royalbasis]

Thank you for the clarification, we usually see a bunch of the big mana decks or lands, so I think I will be boarding some REBs in their place.

On the Stormbreaths, I've been very happy with them. Of course they suffer from not-green syndrome, but with how quick and consistently they kill, and how hard they are to remove I don't think I will be dropping them anytime soon.

Sent from my LG-D315 using Tapatalk

[Tom4ik]

Blood moon is only for decks with posts or marit lage. If you feel you have enough cards to board out then something like shardless is ok but turning off grove is not great because pfire is so great in that match up.

[sdematt]

Blood moon is only for decks with posts or marit lage. If you feel you have enough cards to board out then something like shardless is ok but turning off grove is not great because pfire is so great in that match up.

Post is an awful matchup, and Lands is a bad matchup, so if you're seeing those in your meta, 2-3 Moons is your best way to do it. I only have one Lands player in our group, so it isn't worth the slots for me. Needles still do serve some double duty.

-Matt

[Tom4ik]

@Sdmatt- Agreed. When I was on pfire nic fit I had multiple lands and post players so I played moon. Unless the meta is very heavy I think your right in that you may just want to have things that do double duty rather than things like moon. That said moon is a great tool to have against those deck.

[Bobmans]

Good, then we all agree about Blood Moon.

[rubblekill]

Welp, I guess I'll shut up about Meren from now on; that card is absurd (at least in non-stp match ups).

What is the final consensus on P.Truths? I do have to say that I'm not really excited about it, because we have top already and I don't like to tap out/durdle without impacting the board (or opponent's hand) in any meaningful way. I have always played 3 tops, maybe the optimal split is 2 top 1-2 truths? I'd like to know your gentlemen's opinion about this, fellow jank enthusiasts.

[Warden]

Unless someone can show me the other side of the coin, I think top + fetches are better. If I wanted to abandon top (idk why one would do that), perhaps truths is its replacement. I feel Nic Fit has a LOT of garbage cards so raw "I'm drawing more cards" isn't half as important as drawing the right cards (card quality). Truths in Nic Fit is certainly compatable. You can ignore the color and life issues based on the shell of stuff you'd likely run. Then there is the ease of hitting 3 colors for 3 life to draw 3 cards. I just wonder if Nic Fit even needs raw draw. I think it just needs smarter card quality advantage and a way to stabilize more than anything.

I go back and forth on the kind of Nic Fit I'd enjoy. Pfires is strong right now (Jund removal in general). But so is Rock GBW. At the end of the day I want rhinos with pfires lol. I like Bobmans' new primer Jund list. Haven't had time to test it though. And the concept of Stormbreath Dragon in a meta with mentor, sfm, and DnT seems perfect when you also toss in Deed, Decay, and pfires.

*edited because typing on an iPhone sucks sometimes

[sdematt]

Unless someone can show me the other side of the coin, I think top + fetches are better. If I wanted to abandon top (idk why one would do that), perhaps truths is its replacement. I feel Nic Fit has a LOT of garbage cards so raw "I'm drawing more cards" isn't half as important as drawing the right cards (card quality). Truths in Nic Fit is certainly compatable. You can ignore the color and life issues based on the shell of stuff you'd likely run. Then there is the ease of hitting 3 colors for 3 life to draw 3 cards. I just wonder if Nic Fit even needs raw draw. I think it just needs smarter card quality advantage and a way to stabilize more than anything.

I go back and forth on the kind of Nic Fit I'd enjoy. Pfires is strong right now (Jund removal in general). But so is Rock GBW. At the end of the day I want rhinos with pfires lol. I like Bobmans' new primer Jund list. Haven't had time to test it though. And the concept of Stormbreath Dragon in a meta with mentor, sfm, and DnT seems perfect when you also toss in Deed, Decay, and pfires.

*edited because typing on an iPhone sucks sometimes

Plus, then you can Deluge/Deed away all their little dudes. I'm waiting for mine in the mail.

[Bobmans]

Good to hear Stormbreath Dragon gets some love. That it is not green is made up a bit for being such a monster. Plus, like said, it is strong in the current meta.

@ Meren; yes against StP she will probably eat a Swords on sight, but luckily we now have Stormbreath Dragon to present to them. Otherwise, Meren gives you a screaming orgasm. The card is so sweet. Dodging both Decay and Bolt is huge.

Now Rhino + PFire has been explored by Matt if i remember correct, but the manabase becomes way to greedy. I'll make a quick draft later on, just to see how it works on paper /theory crafting.
On the other hand; if Aggro Loam can support 4 colors, then why couldn't we?

EDIT:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan
3 Punishing Fire
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Dryad Militant


P.Truths; like i said earlier,this is how i feel. NicFit is (often) a slow grinding deck. What occurred to me is that i often only want ~1 card of the top 3 cards (seeing with top). So drawing 3 cards with Truths nets me ~1/2 useful card. I wont deny grabbing more cards gives you a (temporary) boost. Notice temporary, since it CAN put you over the top when timing is good, BUT since this is a slow deck by nature you'd want a recurring effect. So making SDT or Sylvan Library better choices. Now i also think that Sylvan Library is also a better buddy to P.Truths, because both allowing you to draw more cards stacking the effect (at a cost of shit loads of life). The benefits of top are mentioned that you can 1. reset the top 3 with fetch/gsz/veteran, 2. draw a card at instant speed. The last one can be crucial to against say discard. Storm can be won by a well timed Surgical Extraction or just Slaughter Games. Floating those cards on top to protect them from discard is really a plus of SDT.
Having that said, for as long as Top remains legal i don't think i would play P.Truths. I'd even consider running Diabolic Intent before Truths if i had room.

Now, If Top where to be banned i'd be looking into:
Mirri's Guile
Sylvan Library
Painful Truths
Diabolic Intent
Based on gut feeling i would run 2x Sylvan Library and 1x Painful Truths.

I have linked my sig to the list and added some eye candy to that post.

[Nargoron]

Naah... iam not sure if bring 4th color is wise with 4 basics...
And only cose of punishing fire?
Isnt just better use few copies of Swords or Paths and avoid this mana distabilisation?
and ofc now u r definitly not able to kill some huge guys.

[Bobmans]

Naah... iam not sure if bring 4th color is wise with 4 basics...
And only cose of punishing fire?
Isnt just better use few copies of Swords or Paths and avoid this mana distabilisation?
and ofc now u r definitly not able to kill some huge guys.

Are we bringing Siege Rhino to Jund or Punishing Fire to Junk?
Punishing Fire requires multiple red sources next to a full set of Groves to function. Rhino only needs a random white source. Veteran Explorer is the most important color fixer, so i would really want a basic plain for those situations where it matters. Plus this should make the mana base Wasteland/Moon proof. The Savannah is there for the similar situation in that it can be fetched with a fetch (duh). The Karakas is just added (but not really required) extra.
If we are going to agree that Swords is better then Punishing Fire because it removes big dudes then we should not look at Jund entirely, since PFire is the main reason to run it in the first place. So lets not agree on that. We could say that adding few copies of Swords is good, but i just concluded that the manabase should have more focus on red, rather then white to support PFire better. Including more white required cards will put a strain on the manabase. The only reason we can lean more on white sideboard cards is because MU's where those cards come in typically do not run Wasteland and you can play your manabase more greedy (and you rely less on PFire). Not being able to kill the big dudes remains a problem for the Jund version as it is, so we can (have to) rely on Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse.
All in all, the manabase would be very shaky, your most important fixers are Veteran Explorer and Fetchlands, and red would have to be your main focus after GB.

[Nargoron]

Are we bringing Siege Rhino to Jund or Punishing Fire to Junk?
Punishing Fire requires multiple red sources next to a full set of Groves to function. Rhino only needs a random white source. Veteran Explorer is the most important color fixer, so i would really want a basic plain for those situations where it matters. Plus this should make the mana base Wasteland/Moon proof. The Savannah is there for the similar situation in that it can be fetched with a fetch (duh). The Karakas is just added (but not really required) extra.
If we are going to agree that Swords is better then Punishing Fire because it removes big dudes then we should not look at Jund entirely, since PFire is the main reason to run it in the first place. So lets not agree on that. We could say that adding few copies of Swords is good, but i just concluded that the manabase should have more focus on red, rather then white to support PFire better. Including more white required cards will put a strain on the manabase. The only reason we can lean more on white sideboard cards is because MU's where those cards come in typically do not run Wasteland and you can play your manabase more greedy (and you rely less on PFire). Not being able to kill the big dudes remains a problem for the Jund version as it is, so we can (have to) rely on Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse.
All in all, the manabase would be very shaky, your most important fixers are Veteran Explorer and Fetchlands, and red would have to be your main focus after GB.

Ok but your Sigarda gonna suffer...
I have problem often with 2W in junk version..
And to be honest, she is the reason why i am playing junk... not the rhino.
But back to the point, when u r playing punishing version... why play punishing fire? PFire kill little dudes... isnt pernicious deed and deluge better in this way? Only advantage for PFire is reducing jayce cose he is thorn in ours asses...
PFire needs to be efective some extra untutorable land, is vulnerable to grave hate (shaman and so on..), increasing opponents lifes, and cose 2 mana to deal 2 damage...
Maybe i just still didnt get the power of Punishing fires... maybe i should try some delver deck against punnishing fire to feel his power.

More then this version i can imagine junk with taiga and bloodmoon in sb

Another question is on your 3 copies of Slaughter Games
I didnt get the poin of this card too..
There was debate how its good against miracles. But that is the only mu where i see some effect of this card.
In another MU
a) there is no important target for slaughter games or
b) 4 mana is just too slow...
Could anybody gimmy example why its amazing? (no offense, just curious :) )

[Bobmans]

Ok but your Sigarda gonna suffer...
I have problem often with 2W in junk version..
And to be honest, she is the reason why i am playing junk... not the rhino.
But back to the point, when u r playing punishing version... why play punishing fire? PFire kill little dudes... isnt pernicious deed and deluge better in this way? Only advantage for PFire is reducing jayce cose he is thorn in ours asses...
PFire needs to be efective some extra untutorable land, is vulnerable to grave hate (shaman and so on..), increasing opponents lifes, and cose 2 mana to deal 2 damage...
Maybe i just still didnt get the power of Punishing fires... maybe i should try some delver deck against punnishing fire to feel his power.

More then this version i can imagine junk with taiga and bloodmoon in sb

Another question is on your 3 copies of Slaughter Games
I didnt get the poin of this card too..
There was debate how its good against miracles. But that is the only mu where i see some effect of this card.
In another MU
a) there is no important target for slaughter games or
b) 4 mana is just too slow...
Could anybody gimmy example why its amazing? (no offense, just curious :) )
A lot of creatures die to PFire. Running Junk vs Jund is a meta choice tbh (or like me simply because i like the "feel" of jund NicFit). But as soon as you recur Pfire and kill the second creature with it, you have card advantage. Deed is often the card to reset after the early game war. After that you hold control with PFire. it shreds fair.dec

Running pfire with rhino was a suggestion out of earlier posts. I just wanted to see if i got to make a valid list. I agree on Sigarda.

Slaughter Games was ontriduced to battle the horrid SnT MU. It is good against a lot of combo decks like OmniShow, High Tide, Storm while also be very strong against Miracles. I run 3 simply because i really want that vard to see play. It is indeed slow, but with 6 discard and various other tools lile Carpet and DRS/Scooze you should be able to live just long enough to resolve one.

Edit: jund is not so much as induvidual cards being good, it is the synergy of small effects that make it a whole. Because the effects of single cards look small you miss the effect they have on each other and in total synergy. Junk is more about bigger effects and cards have a more "clear" effect. Jund has an incredible manoeuvrability.

[Nargoron]

Slaughter Games was ontriduced to battle the horrid SnT MU. It is good against a lot of combo decks like OmniShow, High Tide, Storm while also be very strong against Miracles. I run 3 simply because i really want that vard to see play. It is indeed slow, but with 6 discard and various other tools lile Carpet and DRS/Scooze you should be able to live just long enough to resolve one.

and isnt just pure multiple gaddock better? faster...


Edit: jund is not so much as induvidual cards being good, it is the synergy of small effects that make it a whole. Because the effects of single cards look small you miss the effect they have on each other and in total synergy. Junk is more about bigger effects and cards have a more "clear" effect. Jund has an incredible manoeuvrability.

Hm, i can see just discarding PFire to lili... or searching part of PFire combo with Diabolic Intent
but iam mayble blind ^_^

but yea, i just like more junk then jund :)
in my oppinion there are more ways to build junk version then jund

[Bobmans]

and isnt just pure multiple gaddock better? faster...


Hm, i can see just discarding PFire to lili... or searching part of PFire combo with Diabolic Intent
but iam mayble blind ^_^

but yea, i just like more junk then jund :)
in my oppinion there are more ways to build junk version then jund
SnT is cast thru Teeg, it still dies to StP and will be EoT dealth with by ANT. SG offers a permanent solution. Teeg on the other hand can be searched by GSZ. All have pros and cons.

There is more to it then discarding PFire to Liliana (which is ok, but it isnt even relevant that often). Like i said, the Jund list is highly manoeuvrable. It is hard to explain, but the deck has a way of finding an exit to a near lost game and can still win. In the end it is like you say, your blind to it because you like Junk more. And that is fine. There is a flavor for everyone.

[rubblekill]

and isnt just pure multiple gaddock better? faster...


Hm, i can see just discarding PFire to lili... or searching part of PFire combo with Diabolic Intent
but iam mayble blind ^_^

but yea, i just like more junk then jund :)
in my oppinion there are more ways to build junk version then jund

While I am with you on the junk vs jund debate, there's one thing we cannot deny: SBD is f'in cool (but a 7/8 flying trampling helixing rhino is even cooler - in this case the opponent's wtf moment is priceless)

[Nargoron]

btw when i was talking about me junk...
there is my current list

1x Batterskull
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Sylvan Library

Creatures:
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Deathrite shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Veteran Explorer

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green sun's Zenith
1x Toxic Deluge

21x land
2x Forest
2x Plain
2x Swamp
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heat

SB:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Ethernsworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Choke
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vindicate
iam not sure about last 2 slots, maybe wasteland + Crop rotation to make Karakas more valuable and have some tool to deal with lands/posts

I appreciate your advice

[Bobmans]

btw when i was talking about me junk...
there is my current list

1x Batterskull
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Sylvan Library

Creatures:
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Deathrite shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Veteran Explorer

2x Abrupt Decay
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green sun's Zenith
1x Toxic Deluge

21x land
2x Forest
2x Plain
2x Swamp
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heat

SB:
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Ethernsworn Canonist
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Choke
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vindicate
iam not sure about last 2 slots, maybe wasteland + Crop rotation to make Karakas more valuable and have some tool to deal with lands/posts

I appreciate your advice
Maybe i am overlooking it, but whats with the Taiga?
Also Ralf suggested running Knight of the Reliquary. It would be a solid call (maybe a tad slow) over the Crop.

[Plm]

@ truth or top : why not use both ?

When playing top I had the problem of needing to draw lands, but being tempted by sexier cards ( and still drawing the land I needed but feeling bad about it ).
One way to go around this problem is courser, the other one is to play truth and top ( and courser cause Mc greedy is my last name).

Currently I play 3 top, 4 greensun as my card quality and 2 truth, courser, Meren and witness as my card advantage. It feels good :smile: .

I'be tried azban charm but the horrible mana cost made it impossible to cast where I needed it ( against marith lage and delver) and if I don't use it as a removal it feels subpar as a draw spell. So I play a shitload of removals ( 3 path 3 decay 2 deed and 2 deluge ) and a lot of CA / card selection .

[Bobmans]

Running 3 top and 1 courser is currently standard. Meren is propably also the new standard.
But there is simply 0 room for Truths in the list. Running more of that means you have less room for other stuff. In Junk without SFM it should be fine, since those lists have more design space.

[rubblekill]

Running 3 top and 1 courser is currently standard. Meren is propably also the new standard.
But there is simply 0 room for Truths in the list. Running more of that means you have less room for other stuff. In Junk without SFM it should be fine, since those lists have more design space.

Now, after disagreeing on Meren and then realising I was wrong, I feel stupid in arguing against yet another creature. I'm talking about courser: I have never felt like I wanted to spend 4 mana to gsz for him. He doesn't impact the board, doesn't tax the opponent (drs, ooze, teeg, militant), doesn't wall goyfs. Meren doesn't wall goyfs as well but I think we have to consider her like an high impact-must be answered asap bomb. Courser doesn't fall in this category, and while he gives decent value he is too slow and the mana needed to cast him could be used for bigger threats/ to keep decay up. In my humble opinion, I might as well wait a turn and use the gsz for Meren/Rhino because otherwise gsz into courser feels like a wasted tutor.

[Nargoron]

Maybe i am overlooking it, but whats with the Taiga?
Also Ralf suggested running Knight of the Reliquary. It would be a solid call (maybe a tad slow) over the Crop.

Taiga - no reason yet... :D it should be third basic forest or 9th fetchland... or use bloodmoon in SB
Knight of the reliquary - crop rotation is much more faster. On the other hand i can tutor him
But without wastelands he cant grow up :/
iam gonna thing about it

[Bobmans]

Now, after disagreeing on Meren and then realising I was wrong, I feel stupid in arguing against yet another creature. I'm talking about courser: I have never felt like I wanted to spend 4 mana to gsz for him. He doesn't impact the board, doesn't tax the opponent (drs, ooze, teeg, militant), doesn't wall goyfs. Meren doesn't wall goyfs as well but I think we have to consider her like an high impact-must be answered asap bomb. Courser doesn't fall in this category, and while he gives decent value he is too slow and the mana needed to cast him could be used for bigger threats/ to keep decay up. In my humble opinion, I might as well wait a turn and use the gsz for Meren/Rhino because otherwise gsz into courser feels like a wasted tutor.

Courser: i must first say that i needed to get used to playing this card. You need to squeeze him between your early turn ramp and midgame bombs, just like you said. But i made it my SOP to do so. The benefit? Courser of Kruphix is a lategame fixer (at least, that is how i look at him). Without SDT, it filters your top of the library from lands so your most likely end up drawing into non lands + it accelerates your manabase development (if it doenst right away, then it will in a few turns). This results in a more stable shift to the lategame. If the Courser is coupled with SDT it becomes a serious card advantage engine. Rearrange top so you draw the card you want, often there will be a land in the 3 top cards, so you can play the land from the top. That is 2 card draws a turn, plus your SDT gets 2 new fresh cards per turn. And let's not forget you get more fetches on the table so you have more way's to refresh the top 3. Marginal, but also helping is the lifegain for playing lands. It is the sum of small things that make the synergy. Lifegain from DRS, Thragtusk and Scooze all add up. Yes, it does die to Decay, but we can't have it all. Playing the card into removal is silly, you have to know when to play it. If you need to do something about a goyf, you search for a decay. Taxing the opponent will come in time, if you need Teeg or Militant, then something else is going on that needs answers like those. Courser is about stabilizing your board presence for the long haul. So yeah, not always the card you need. But he is a card you always want.

[rubblekill]

Courser: i must first say that i needed to get used to playing this card. You need to squeeze him between your early turn ramp and midgame bombs, just like you said. But i made it my SOP to do so. The benefit? Courser of Kruphix is a lategame fixer (at least, that is how i look at him). Without SDT, it filters your top of the library from lands so your most likely end up drawing into non lands + it accelerates your manabase development (if it doenst right away, then it will in a few turns). This results in a more stable shift to the lategame. If the Courser is coupled with SDT it becomes a serious card advantage engine. Rearrange top so you draw the card you want, often there will be a land in the 3 top cards, so you can play the land from the top. That is 2 card draws a turn, plus your SDT gets 2 new fresh cards per turn. And let's not forget you get more fetches on the table so you have more way's to refresh the top 3. Marginal, but also helping is the lifegain for playing lands. It is the sum of small things that make the synergy. Lifegain from DRS, Thragtusk and Scooze all add up. Yes, it does die to Decay, but we can't have it all. Playing the card into removal is silly, you have to know when to play it. If you need to do something about a goyf, you search for a decay. Taxing the opponent will come in time, if you need Teeg or Militant, then something else is going on that needs answers like those. Courser is about stabilizing your board presence for the long haul. So yeah, not always the card you need. But he is a card you always want.

I understand, but I think he is still a greed inducing creature! At least witness, for 3 mana, give us back a path or a decay to do something (like killing a delver or a goyf), while courser requires time. And not always we, almost always the slow deck, have spare time: in the early games we have to survive early delvers and or goys, while battling against daze and pierces (and wasteland to a lesser extent). Even a single turn, like the one we spend casting a 3-4 mana do-nothing-when-it-comes-down creature, can and often will be crucial for our life total. It definitely is a fun card, and even a value creature, but the setup he needs is too big to milk massive value from him. I'll continue to try him..

[Nargoron]

I understand, but I think he is still a greed inducing creature! At least witness, for 3 mana, give us back a path or a decay to do something (like killing a delver or a goyf), while courser requires time. And not always we, almost always the slow deck, have spare time: in the early games we have to survive early delvers and or goys, while battling against daze and pierces (and wasteland to a lesser extent). Even a single turn, like the one we spend casting a 3-4 mana do-nothing-when-it-comes-down creature, can and often will be crucial for our life total. It definitely is a fun card, and even a value creature, but the setup he needs is too big to milk massive value from him. I'll continue to try him..
iam sceptical about this card too...
but today it save me a game and gimmy healthy top decks..
BUT yea, do you wanna spent GSZ for him? In many scenarios you rather fetch for Witness...

[Brael]

Now, after disagreeing on Meren and then realising I was wrong, I feel stupid in arguing against yet another creature. I'm talking about courser: I have never felt like I wanted to spend 4 mana to gsz for him. He doesn't impact the board, doesn't tax the opponent (drs, ooze, teeg, militant), doesn't wall goyfs. Meren doesn't wall goyfs as well but I think we have to consider her like an high impact-must be answered asap bomb. Courser doesn't fall in this category, and while he gives decent value he is too slow and the mana needed to cast him could be used for bigger threats/ to keep decay up. In my humble opinion, I might as well wait a turn and use the gsz for Meren/Rhino because otherwise gsz into courser feels like a wasted tutor.

I might be a bit inexperienced with this deck but I'm pretty good at identifying what works and what doesn't after playing it. From experience I can say that Courser is amazing, if you don't need the value right away it's a better 3 drop than Eternal Witness.

Without SDT it's worth somewhere around .33 cards per turn (depending on land left in the deck), increases your topdeck quality, gains about .6 life per turn , gives you information on when you should shuffle, and beats some removal. Where it gets really amazing though is with SDT, then it jumps to about .6 cards per turn, 1.2 life per turn, and gives you a mechanism to clear SDT easily, in addition to it's regular benefits. The card just fills a bunch of holes.

I rarely GSZ into Courser though, I find that it's a jack of all trades, master of none type of card while GSZ is looking for specific things. Instead I run multiple Coursers and leave it up to GSZ to find the other things I need.

I'm actually not a fan of the T3 Courser either. I find it works best coming down on turn 6+. You want to soak up the opponents removal first so that it can sit around and generate advantage, on top of that it just doesn't curve well on T3 unless Veteran Explorer already came down. A T3 Courser risks dying before you can play a land and generate some value, and with a T4 Courser you don't really want to play it and then be pressed into a 1 drop (if you even have one in hand). Courser works best when you can play it and something else in the same turn, either with a land in hand (ideally a fetch) or after setup from Top.

[Nargoron]

I might be a bit inexperienced with this deck but I'm pretty good at identifying what works and what doesn't after playing it. From experience I can say that Courser is amazing, if you don't need the value right away it's a better 3 drop than Eternal Witness.

Without SDT it's worth somewhere around .33 cards per turn (depending on land left in the deck), increases your topdeck quality, gains about .6 life per turn , gives you information on when you should shuffle, and beats some removal. Where it gets really amazing though is with SDT, then it jumps to about .6 cards per turn, 1.2 life per turn, and gives you a mechanism to clear SDT easily, in addition to it's regular benefits. The card just fills a bunch of holes.

I rarely GSZ into Courser though, I find that it's a jack of all trades, master of none type of card while GSZ is looking for specific things. Instead I run multiple Coursers and leave it up to GSZ to find the other things I need.

I'm actually not a fan of the T3 Courser either. I find it works best coming down on turn 6+. You want to soak up the opponents removal first so that it can sit around and generate advantage, on top of that it just doesn't curve well on T3 unless Veteran Explorer already came down. A T3 Courser risks dying before you can play a land and generate some value, and with a T4 Courser you don't really want to play it and then be pressed into a 1 drop (if you even have one in hand). Courser works best when you can play it and something else in the same turn, either with a land in hand (ideally a fetch) or after setup from Top.
Nice analysis
He just make... little things, but many little things...

If we are talking about stabilisation late game..
what about Evolutionary Leap?
At first look... its ridiculous... and probably too much depending on situation
BUT... you have another way how to sac veteran, you can keep clearing veterans, Dt shamans in late game and try to change them with some rhino for example?
You can sac useless 1/2 Stoneforge mystiq after she did her job... Witness the same...
You add counters to Meren and make him more valuable
You have another way to ,,shuffle" your library when your SenseisDTop show you 3x dead cards..
any sugestion?
Or Do you think that is just a silly dream?
Ofc then you have to play max 2x Pernicious Deed and use more toxic deluge... this is probably the worst side...
(If there were a discusion about this card, iam sorry)

[Arianrhod]

Disappointing 2-3-drop at Mythic this month. Started 2-0, then went 0-3. I played basically the same list I played last month, except I dropped the 2nd Courser for a Maelstrom Pulse, and I dropped the sideboard Elspeth for a Nether Void. The deck was actually a very good call for this month (the fact that I almost always jam it notwithstanding) -- the room had a bunch of fair decks in it, lots of delver and miracles, and the various combo decks that -were- present tended to the slower side of the spectrum, which is better for us. Unfortunately I didn't draw very well on the day and had to mulligan a lot. I was consistently one turn from winning games all day, which I chalk up to the repeated mulligans.

R1 was vs a bug brew that was essentially bug delver, except instead of delvers he was running stiflenaught. Still a lot of Tasigurs and Gurmags. Game one he did the blue deck thing and just drew cards until he died. Game two my opponent learned that Gurmag Angler loses to Baneslayer.

R2 was vs deathblade with a maindeck Vraska, maindeck TNNs, and maindeck Academy Ruins. I was a hair worried about this match sitting down -- this is always super grindy, and my opponents list was particularly greedy // lategame powered. I needn't have worried. Nissa and Baneslayers carried the fuck out of me both games. Seriously, if you aren't playing Nissa yet, go buy one. Card is unreal.

R3 was vs Elves. Game one was super long and grindy...he hit me with an early hoof, but couldn't kill and had to rebuild to get to his second. I had some time to find a Deed, but couldn't get there despite filtering with Courser and fetches. I hit a Baneslayer and had him on a 3-turn clock, but he drew into a symbiote to go with his visionary, and killed me shortly thereafter. Game two lasted somewhere around 10 turns. My opponent mulled to 5 and kept a no-lander on the draw, which I exacerbated by Deeding@0 to kill his Dryad Arbor (the first land he drew / played on turn 3). In these 10 turns, I saw exactly 2 of my sideboard cards (of which I brought in 12). Note that I had a turn 1 Top and was fetching or Zenithing almost every turn. I Slaughter Games'd out his Craterhoof so he couldn't just spontaneously oops me, and then withstood 3 of his glimpses by using my remaining two deeds and my E.Plague (which I finally hit super fucking late, like turn 8ish?) to sweep his board repeatedly. The problem with Elves is that unless you have something to actually keep them down (Canonist, Nether Void, Mindcensor, Plague), sweeping them doesn't actually do anything. I eventually died in turns, although my opponent would've won the match anyway if we'd actually timed out. Excrutiatingly tilting match, and I think that in a way some of my problems the next two rounds were partially caused by mentally checking out after this. I'm fine with a reasonable amount of variance -- I wouldn't be playing Magic still after all of these years if I wasn't. But when I board in 12 cards and am seeing 4 fresh cards every turn for 10 turns, only seeing 2 of those sideboard options is just flat unreasonable.

R4 was vs Grixis Delver. I mull to 5 g1, and he goes t1 delver t2 young pyro with daze, fow, and stifle backup over the next couple of turns. Happens. Game 2 he makes the mistake of playing a t2 Sulfuric Vortex when he has a DRS and I have 2 Vets that have been actively punching him. He ends up dying to his own Vortex...he eventually blocks one of the Vets with the DRS, but that lets me play a Rhino with Thoughtseize backup, which bolts him and then presents a huge trampling thing. G3 I mull to 6 again (something like my 4th or 5th mull to 6 on the day at this point), and I'm one turn short. This game is pretty close all the way down, but he manages to use double DRS + double bolt to burn me out from a hale 10 life. I knew about the first Bolt, but he had exactly one turn to draw the second, and without it he didn't actually have enough damage or spells to throw at me with deathrite for the kill. Can't really complain too much since it was such a close game, but it still rankles a little to lose this matchup in general.

R5 was vs mono-u omnitell. I'm not even going to pretend that I didn't play like a complete monkey this match, because I did. Game 1 he just railroads me, okay, fine, that's your role in this world. Game two I know he has an Emrakul in his hand, so I slaughter games it out. This was the same guy I played vs last month who had like 3 Emrakul 2 Griselbrand with Burning Wishes and etc, so I wasn't sure how many Emrakul he was running this time. Was just the one, which is whatever I guess. A second Slaughter on Cunning Wish wins the game at that point, and he still needs to find Show and Tell, Omni, and Enter to actually kill me, plus I had a Nether Void sitting in my hand, so I still actually think that naming Emrakul there and taking the bird in his hand is correct. It resets him to having to draw 3 combo cards instead of just 2, an realistically just Showing an Emrakul is good enough most of the time, so removing that as a line was good too.

The problem is that I should've then played the Nether Void the next turn. I was worried about deploying the Void without a clock in play, so I pussed and played Nissa to respin my Top and get a bear into play. He spends a turn cantripping, I do something irrelevant (still not playing the Void that I should be, because I'm erroneously under the opinion that putting it in off the show and tell is better than casting it), and then he Shows on his next turn. I drop the Void, he grumbles and has to pass the turn. I Therapy him, but am on 5 mana so I can't flashback. I call Cunning Wish, which was totally the incorrect call -- I knew he had an Enter floating around in his hand earlier from when I Slaughtered him, but I assumed that he had Brainstormed it away while he was digging. He doesn't have the Wish, but does have the Enter. He pays 3 for it next turn, draws his deck, plays a City of Traitors to get 3 more mana to be able to wipe away my Void, and then I die.

I don't even really know what to say about that other than that I played badly and deserved to lose.

tl;dr:

Deck was good, built correctly and the right call for the metagame.
Nissa is a goddess, treat her accordingly.
Baneslayer did heavy lifting today in basically every game I won. At least two of those games, I would not have won if Baneslayer was anything other than a Baneslayer (insert arbitrary bomb here).
Extreme variance is still incredibly tilting to me.
Mulligans suck: the scry rule helps (now that I'm consistently remembering that it exists finally), but doesn't compensate enough to do anything other than games tantalizingly close. Being down a card is still a large mountain of advantage.
Meren never came online on the day. She got to scare the shit out of some people, but I usually had other things to do that were more important. I wasn't unhappy to draw her at any point, that said.
Titan/deed is still the nut high, even though it only happened once on the day (vs deathblade guy).
The biggest slop was barely ever drawing Therapy. I never drew it vs Elves in either game, I never drew it vs Grixis in any of the three games, and I only drew one vs Omnitell, late in g2.

Not sure if I'm going to run it back again for January (next mythic is the 9th, will be attending). I might investigate a bug version -- either possibly looking into the Jace Vryn reanimator style deck, or something more traditional. Thune is also on the list of possibles, as is Pod. I still think the deck is very solid right and worth playing, I'm just mostly worried that it's become a little too predictable since I've run it for two months in a row now -- people remembered it from last month and knew what I was up to more than I like.

[rubblekill]

Nissa is a goddess, treat her accordingly.

I am not gonna lie, that gave me a hearty chuckle.

[Ganfar]

I realy wanted tot talk about my Jund deck now I have played it for some tourments. The list is from a SCG event from serval months ago and seemed very stable. I have ofc added other cards from the orginal one. The deck seems okey in the meta I am playing and it's a blast to play.

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
This is autoinclucde like the Cabal and Vets. I am always happy to see this card in my start hand or when I draw it. I almost want a 4th one so I got it more often

2 Eternal Witness
I wanted one from the start but I start to like have two. Even there is Deathrite E Witness is still strong card. To pick up anything from the grave is great

2 Huntmaster of the Fells
So fun and a good card. It really takes over the battlefield and make it more stable. Almost want a third one before Commander 2015 came out instead of Thrun.

1 Scavenging Ooze
Go to have grave hate in main but I feel I got to little green sometimes for this guy. He is the best two we can get.

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
Deed is geart but slow and I am a bit afried for Tasigur and Agular. We use Deed mostaly to kill creture so I swap a deed for a Toxic instead. I think this is a good change and I have a deed in sideborad to matchup where it is better.

1 Painful Truths
I was not so big fan of it until I got to draw three cards witht his. The old list had 4 P Fire but it was one to many so I wanted one other card there. Fire I wanted a Top but when BFZ came and people started to play with this card I had to try. It's good.

1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Commander 2015 gave us a good four drop. Even if we don't get the creture into battlefield, to get a creture to your hand every turn it's good. She can only be remove by Swords and give us value.

1 Broodmate Dragon
This is a beast and I have won many close game by casting this guy. Mirales have really hard time to take care of this card.

1 Deathrite Shaman
I wanted a one drop for GSZ that was not Vet and Deathrite is really good.

@Arianrhod: I wanted a other good three drop in the deck that was not E Witnes or Corurser. 7 lands are a lot to make her flip I think. Did you flip it all the time?

[Bobmans]

Would be a good idea to change 1 basic Mountain to a Badlands. With 2 mountain and 2 colorless lands you might have some bad openener that color screw you. 1 mountain should be enough to fully support the deck with only basics.
The Ob Nixious is decend. I would prefer Vraska, but it is kinda obnoxious not seeing Liliana in a Jund list while Tasigur/Angler are a problem. Remove Ob and add 2 Liliana going to 61 MB.
And a note to all, please arrange your lists, it is kinda hard reading thru a randomly organised list.

@ Arianrhod, pity it went sour. Getting results with NicFit is an achievement on it's own. I don't think Pod is going to make it better, as a matter of fact, if your Meta knows your on NicFit it does not matter what version anyhow. Mostly i switch to Mud (or from Mud to NicFit). Currently i am working on Aggro Loam. Switch to so many other archetypes that there actually isnt an archetypr i havent played. In the end NicFit is to coolest thing to play.

[Ganfar]

Would be a good idea to change 1 basic Mountain to a Badlands. With 2 mountain and 2 colorless lands you might have some bad openener that color screw you. 1 mountain should be enough to fully support the deck with only basics.
The Ob Nixious is decend. I would prefer Vraska, but it is kinda obnoxious not seeing Liliana in a Jund list while Tasigur/Angler are a problem. Remove Ob and add 2 Liliana going to 61 MB.
And a note to all, please arrange your lists, it is kinda hard reading thru a randomly organised list.

@ Arianrhod, pity it went sour. Getting results with NicFit is an achievement on it's own. I don't think Pod is going to make it better, as a matter of fact, if your Meta knows your on NicFit it does not matter what version anyhow. Mostly i switch to Mud (or from Mud to NicFit). Currently i am working on Aggro Loam. Switch to so many other archetypes that there actually isnt an archetypr i havent played. In the end NicFit is to coolest thing to play.

Oh, I forgot Ob.

Ob has been good to me. Only time he is not good when you paly him and the oppment has a lot of cretures out. I had Garruk first but GGG is harder to cast then BB.

Lillana is okey but I don't find room for her and I will not have 61 cards i MD.

I just copy past from Cockatrice. Sorry about htat.

[Ganfar]

I realy wanted tot talk about my Jund deck now I have played it for some tourments. The list is from a SCG event from serval months ago and seemed very stable. I have ofc added other cards from the orginal one. The deck seems okey in the meta I am playing and it's a blast to play.

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Painful Truths
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top
This is autoinclucde like the Cabal and Vets. I am always happy to see this card in my start hand or when I draw it. I almost want a 4th one so I got it more often

2 Eternal Witness
I wanted one from the start but I start to like have two. Even there is Deathrite E Witness is still strong card. To pick up anything from the grave is great

2 Huntmaster of the Fells
So fun and a good card. It really takes over the battlefield and make it more stable. Almost want a third one before Commander 2015 came out instead of Thrun.

1 Scavenging Ooze
Go to have grave hate in main but I feel I got to little green sometimes for this guy. He is the best two we can get.

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
Deed is geart but slow and I am a bit afried for Tasigur and Agular. We use Deed mostaly to kill creture so I swap a deed for a Toxic instead. I think this is a good change and I have a deed in sideborad to matchup where it is better.

1 Painful Truths
I was not so big fan of it until I got to draw three cards witht his. The old list had 4 P Fire but it was one to many so I wanted one other card there. Fire I wanted a Top but when BFZ came and people started to play with this card I had to try. It's good.

1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Commander 2015 gave us a good four drop. Even if we don't get the creture into battlefield, to get a creture to your hand every turn it's good. She can only be remove by Swords and give us value.

1 Broodmate Dragon
This is a beast and I have won many close game by casting this guy. Mirales have really hard time to take care of this card.

1 Deathrite Shaman
I wanted a one drop for GSZ that was not Vet and Deathrite is really good.

1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Ob has been good to me. Only time he is not good when you paly him and the oppnent has a lot of cretures out. I had Garruk first but GGG is harder to cast then BB. Ob is hard to kill with 5 loyalties and gives you cards.

@Arianrhod: I wanted a other good three drop in the deck that was not E Witnes or Corurser. 7 lands are a lot to make her flip I think. Did you flip it all the time?

[sdematt]

Oh, I forgot Ob.

Ob has been good to me. Only time he is not good when you paly him and the oppment has a lot of cretures out. I had Garruk first but GGG is harder to cast then BB.

Lillana is okey but I don't find room for her and I will not have 61 cards i MD.

I just copy past from Cockatrice. Sorry about htat.

So you don't want to play 61 in a tutor control deck? It's a shame, you could ;)

I think I'm going to shove 2 Liliana back in and give it a whirl again (Jund), once exams are over. I yearn for Friday.

[Bobmans]

Oh, I forgot Ob.
Ob has been good to me. Only time he is not good when you play him and the opponent has a lot of creatures out. I had Garruk first but GGG is harder to cast then BB.

Yeah, Ob looks interesting. But like i said, i would prefer Vraska the Unseen. The abilities compliment the deck's tactic. Some say it is a poor Vindicate, but this Vindicate will win the game if left unchecked. The CMC 5 can be heavy, but being BG makes up for it. I suppose that is the most easy combination to get. But at 5 CMC getting double color shouldn't be hard either. Vraska does not draw cards, but destroy a wider range of stuff (non-land). Her Ultimate just wins games. The one from Ob to, but it takes time/is more conditional. The +1 from Ob is pretty solid. Vraska's +1 is weird, which is why i probably like it so much. If it doesn't do anything, then your board state is good. But if your opponent has board presence, weird shit happens. Now, planeswalkers in general don't like it when you have nothing to support them with. So for a walker a board full with creatures is not nice. But the fun thing about Vraska is, that they will have to deal with it. If they do, they gonna lose creatures. If they don't, they'll eventually lose the game. Plus can eat up Batterskull, Jace, Ugin or Angler and whatnot. The problem is, however, space.. In Jund NicFit i really like having 3 Liliana, tried 2 once and i was missing the card a lot... On the other hand, running to much one-off also kinda sucks. In a list without 2x Stormbreath Dragon i might squeeze her in again. And i want that 4th PFire and i want this and that... Anyway, Vraska is probably one of my favorite cards. The looks on peoples faces during tournament playing this deck is golden, especially with all those readers like Vraska being Japanese haha.

[Echelon]

Concerning Courser: Run into burn.dec just once and you'll be convinced you won't be able to live without it.

Sure in most MU's you want it post turn 5 or so, but vs. Burn get it out ASAP. It eats Goblin Guides, stops Eidolons from attacking instantly and helps you stabilize/survive long enough to start powering out rhinoes and taking over the game.

Vs. all others decks I'm never unhappy to see it. But that might be b/c I run more shuffling effects than most and skip on Tops/Libraries.

Concerning Painful Truths: It's amazing. I run 2 and wouldn't run more, but @2 it's great. It allows you to pull right back into the game. It's also one of the reasons I'm adding a Starved Rusalka over DRS #3 so I can more easily assemble the Meren + Eternal Witness + sac outlet engine (a single Rusalka gives me 5 extra virtual sac outlets. Have I said I tend to overuse/abuse GSZ?).

Concerning Evolutionary Leap: No. Just... no. Just run a Diabolic Intent in the slot you intend to use for that card. At least you know what you'll get after you sacrifice your critter. And it might just get you that instant/sorcery/any other silver bullet that blows your opponent straight out of the water rather than your next DRS. Yes, yes, cornercases, I don't give a shit. Just take it from a guy that has run 4 of those things MD for over 10 years. It's the tits.

[Nargoron]

Concerning Evolutionary Leap: No. Just... no. Just run a Diabolic Intent in the slot you intend to use for that card. At least you know what you'll get after you sacrifice your critter. And it might just get you that instant/sorcery/any other silver bullet that blows your opponent straight out of the water rather than your next DRS. Yes, yes, cornercases, I don't give a shit. Just take it from a guy that has run 4 of those things MD for over 10 years. It's the tits.

Yep after spending some minits in virtual games in my head... i came with the same solution..
but its sweet, cute and tasty
I can imagine some pretty cool situation...
But yea... posibility for second Karakas, next Deluge,Swords,Sigarda,Gaddock.... is just better :(
Leap need more support to be overpowered... something like Bloodghast. That could be funny deck :) but ... not in nic fit shell, not in present form

But just casual sac veteran and pray for rhino... its just not enough

[Memories of the Time]

I've tested Leap, it's a nice strategy but don't change much deck's mu than Birthing Pod. It's slow, mana hungry, but nice and strong vs midrange and control.
@Nebraska War: i've brought Bug Pod again. Ended 5-2 drop, i had to come back to my home and my rating sucked so i didn't play the last two turns.
Grixis PyroDelver: 2-1
Shardless 2-0
Don't-remember-what 2-0

Junk 0-1
Jund 1-2

Sigh. So disappointing to lose from two good Mu like these... nothing to say, i've made 1 error against Junk and i've been punished (of course, he had a little luck... just a little...), Jund always has started with t1 shaman t2 liliana t3 confidant+discard and so on, i've lost g3 shuffling away 2 Surgical Extraction with Brainstorm... in the next 4 draws i've picked up: surgical, land, land, surgical. LOL

Infect 2-1
RG Lands 2-0

[Brael]

Played in our weekly Thursday night Legacy event again. They're pretty small and time constraints limit them to 3 rounds but it's still weekly Legacy. I improved my 1-2 record from last week to 1-0-2. Draws were a big problem, it just felt like I couldn't close games out fast enough.

Round 1 was against Esper Stoneblade. I lost game 1, took game 2, and I was behind in game 3 when turns put an end to it (opponent had a Batterskull, I had killed the token, 5 mana total, I had nothing on board, only removal in hand)

Round 2 was against Miracles. I took game 1 as I usually do but lost game 2. I was probably going to win game 3 but it would be close. My opponent had Karakas/Venser and 7 life but I had 8 mana, a Siege Rhino/Meren in hand, and he couldn't find a 4 drop, and an entire 1 life. We both had tops but I also had a Library that I had taken 16 damage from that game (out of about 30 life total), but sadly every card I took was a land.

Round 3 was against Shardless BUG. I won this 2-0. One of those games was close but I won it with a Deed in part because my opponent didn't realize an activated Creeping Tar Pit would die to the Deed, though I probably still would have won it without that misplay because of Courser/Top advantage. Game 2 was a very long grind with my opponent and I in topdeck mode for about 10 turns each but I had a top to his nothing so I was pretty favored to win that battle which I eventually did. During the topdecks my opponent was able to get a couple 7/8 Goyfs onto the field but I had been keeping removal on top of my library so once a threat came down I had the answer.

This is what I played
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Path to Exile
1 Painful Truths

Enchantment 4
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 15
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dryad Militant
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Hymn to Tourach

Here's what I learned from playing it:
1. Sylvan Library should just be another Painful Truths.
2. My sideboard is atrocious. Choke should be Tsunami, Rest in Peace should be another Nihil Spellbomb, Baneslayer Angel should be anything that does things, and no one plays Elves locally so Engineered Plague isn't very good, the most use I get out of it is naming Monk or Wizard against Miracles. Has anyone ever tried Night of Soul's Betrayal?
3. I want a Maelstrom Pulse.

And a question:
1. Instead of Hymn, would something like Thalia be better? It's easier to cast and actually contributes to killing my opponent.

[Echelon]

And a question:
1. Instead of Hymn, would something like Thalia be better? It's easier to cast and actually contributes to killing my opponent.

I'm not that big a fan of Hymn in Nic Fit. BB is hard to come by turn 2/3. I'd replace them with Duress.

Thalia seriously messes with your stuff too and can't be GSZ'd, which is a big no-no for silver bullets with legs.

[sdematt]

I'm not that big a fan of Hymn in Nic Fit. BB is hard to come by turn 2/3. I'd replace them with Duress.

Thalia seriously messes with your stuff too and can't be GSZ'd, which is a big no-no for silver bullets with legs.

Brael, what city do you live in? Tell us about the meta.

[Brael]

I'm not that big a fan of Hymn in Nic Fit. BB is hard to come by turn 2/3. I'd replace them with Duress.

Thalia seriously messes with your stuff too and can't be GSZ'd, which is a big no-no for silver bullets with legs.

Ya, the BB is an issue. It's not impossible to do but it tends to extract a price in terms of limiting your other plays. I could go to Duress, but I'm not sure those are even what I'm looking for. Taking the idea of wanting more silver bullets in the sideboard how are Sylvan Safekeeper, Scryb Ranger, Quirion Ranger, and Ichneumon Druid? At first glance it looks to me like Safekeeper is a good way to stop removal, I find there's usually lands to sacrifice eventually. The Rangers are similar but they can combo with Dryad Arbor or Deathrite Shaman to accelerate a bit in one turn at the cost of having less later on and picking up lands to retrigger with Courser of Kruphix sounds neat. And last the Druid seems interesting against Storm but I've never played against that deck in Legacy (atleast with Nic Fit), is it too slow to GSZ for without other disruption?

[Bobmans]

This is what I played
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Path to Exile
1 Painful Truths

Enchantment 4
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 15
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dryad Militant
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Plague
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Hymn to Tourach


I can understand why you have trouble closing doen games. Only 4/5 creatures that complete the job.
Looking to include SFM package might be worth trying. It puts on pressure more early and it cuts the need of having soo much library manipulation. I find that 3 sdt, 1 intent/truths/library is a lot.
So shave of 4 or 5 slots.

Yes, that SB gonna give problems.

[Echelon]

I can understand why you have trouble closing doen games. Only 4/5 creatures that complete the job.

To be honest, he also runs a Sigarda

But that doesn't have to be a problem. You just need to play enough spot removal to clear the road or some more beef. I'd switch Courser #2 for Rhino #4 and Sylvan Library for Path to Exile #3.

[Bobmans]

To be honest, he also runs a Sigarda

But that doesn't have to be a problem. You just need to play enough spot removal to clear the road or some more beef. I'd switch Courser #2 for Rhino #4 and Sylvan Library for Path to Exile #3.

Yes, meren was the doubtfull 5th. 3 rhino and sigarda is 4. Anyway, still needs more beefy cards, not sure if 4th Rhino instead of 2nd Courser is enough.

On another note, Chandra, flamecaller: that design is super sweet. Cmc 6 with RR is a pain in the butt. Still im gonna test 1 in my signature pfire list. That list is built to support RR on the mid/late.
+1: 2x 3/1 haste until eot.
0: draw 1, filter more
-x: variable Pyroclasm
all abilities are relevant, they + and - work good together and she can win games on her own.

[rubblekill]

I can understand why you have trouble closing doen games. Only 4/5 creatures that complete the job.
Looking to include SFM package might be worth trying. It puts on pressure more early and it cuts the need of having soo much library manipulation. I find that 3 sdt, 1 intent/truths/library is a lot.
So shave of 4 or 5 slots.

Yes, that SB gonna give problems.

I run a similar creature package (no courser +1drs +1thrun) and I have no problems in closing games to be honest

[Nargoron]

On another note, Chandra, flamecaller: that design is super sweet. Cmc 6 with RR is a pain in the butt. Still im gonna test 1 in my signature pfire list. That list is built to support RR on the mid/late.
+1: 2x 3/1 haste until eot.
0: draw 1, filter more
-x: variable Pyroclasm
all abilities are relevant, they + and - work good together and she can win games on her own.
Iam not sure about her...
+1 is just not enough for 6 mana.... for 6 mana get 3/1 elemental until end of turn is poor
+0 this looks better, BUT when u cast Chandra, your hand is probably empty...
-x she has 4 counters... she cant kill even goyf

In my oppinion there are much better 6mana bombs...
or just better planeswalkers


I run a similar creature package (no courser +1drs +1thrun) and I have no problems in closing games to be honest
I have similar decklist +2x Stoneforge mystiq with sword and Skull
for example now i have played against BUG
g1: very slow, but when i hit 5 mana i start bombing with 3x rhinos...
g2: much closer, creeping tar was rly enoying, but thanks Sword of fire and ice on little DtShaman was enough, draw with him sigarda, next Stonefroge for batterskull and .... 2:0

[Bobmans]

Iam not sure about her...
+1 is just not enough for 6 mana.... for 6 mana get 3/1 elemental until end of turn is poor
+0 this looks better, BUT when u cast Chandra, your hand is probably empty...
-x she has 4 counters... she cant kill even goyf

In my oppinion there are much better 6mana bombs...
or just better planeswalkers


I have similar decklist +2x Stoneforge mystiq with sword and Skull
for example now i have played against BUG
g1: very slow, but when i hit 5 mana i start bombing with 3x rhinos...
g2: much closer, creeping tar was rly enoying, but thanks Sword of fire and ice on little DtShaman was enough, draw with him sigarda, next Stonefroge for batterskull and .... 2:0
Hmm, goyf meets Decay.
Overall i think this is pretty heavy. Sweep board, pound with 6 power. Miracles especially is not gonna like this card.
You may not be conviced, and the cmc is too much. But this card is really well designed aside its casting cost.

[gth842s]

I figured I'd drop a quick write-up of my weekly legacy event from last night. I ran Rhino Fit.

Deck

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Grave Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Path to Exile
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

SB:

2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Extirpate
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Engineered Plague
1 Karakas
1 Golgari Charm

Round 1 vs. Storm (0-2)

Game one was actually pretty interesting and interactive. I was able to get Dark Petition off of a cabal therapy, fired off a hymn, and my opponent made the mistake of playing double LED and passing, so I was able to capitalize by playing Deed and blowing it for 0. That said, my rhino and friends got him down to 6 and he naturally drew the past in flames and went off.

SB: +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Hymn, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Leyline, +1 Ooze, +1 Extirpate // -2 Pernicious Deed, -2 Grave Titan, -1 Courser, -1 Path, -1 Abrupt Decay

Game two was quick off of my own misplay. I tried to get cute with a turn one Dryad Arbor to accelerate into turn two Vindicate on his LED when I could have sequenced T1 pass, T2 hymn, T3 GSZ for Gaddock Teeg. He took advantage and the game was over.

Round 2 vs. Aggro Loam (2-0)

Game One: My opponent tried the Wasteland plan, which slowed me down until the original Nice Fit (Explorer and Therapy) got me in business. I had a turn one DRS and a scooze this game so his graveyard wasn't much of a resource for him. Siege Rhino eventually closed the game out for me.

SB: +1 Extirpate, +1 Leyline of the Void, +1 Ooze, +1 Sigarda, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Abrupt Decay // -1 Rhino, -1 Grave Titan, -2 Liliana, -2 Hymn

Game Two: We both kept hands with lots of disruption and low threat density - my opponent starts with Leyline of the Void -, so this game was a bit of a grind. My opponent was able to get both Loam and Punishing Fire going but I was able to deploy Sigarda with an active Top to find a few Decays and the game was over.

Round 3 vs. Interesting BUG Delver (2-1)

Game One: My opponent mulligans to four and begins playing out slowly, leading me to believe he's on Shardless BUG or a brew (Turn 2 Hymn) so my Therapy names Shardless Agent and reveals land, Tombstalker, Ponder. My turn three I am completely blown out by Daze while trying to fetch up Titania. His Tombstalker goes the distance.

+1 Choke, +1 Leyline, +1 Scooze, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sigarda // -2 Grave Titan, -1 Hymn, -1 Vindicate

Game Two: I start the game with Leyline, which is important in keeping his early Tarmogoyfs nice and small. My opponent over-commits into Pernicious Deed. A million Top activations plus a million Liliana activations and an ultimate, and Siege Rhino draws the concession.

Game Three: My opponent builds out his board and I am able to sequence Decay, Decay, Eternal Witness targeting Decay, Decay, Deed. I'm also able to constrain his mana with Choke, and he's down to 2 Bayous untapped. I'm out of removal at this point and we are joined by another Tombstalker. I begin racing with Courser of Kruphix, Siege Rhino, and a Veteran Explorer. We go to turns, I play Sigarda on turn three, and am able to attack for lethal on turn five.

Round 4 vs. Tin Fins (2-1)

Game One: My opponent is not able to put together the combo before Siege Rhino and Qasali Pridemage win the day. Cabal Therapy and Hymn play a part in slowing him down, but since he's a Reanimator deck, there's always a danger to firing off a Hymn.

+2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Leyline, +1 Extirpate, +1 Scavenging Ooze, +2 Thoughtseize // -1 Courser, -1 Rhino, -2 Grave Titan, -1 Pernicious Deed, -2 Abrupt Decay

Game Two: My opponent and I draw highly disruptive hands and the game is slow. I eventually have a board of Rhino + Titania with a fetch land in play; my opponent is functionally hellbent and dead unless he draws exactly Toxic Deluge, and my opponent draws Toxic Deluge. He's able to reanimate Griselbrand, but Nic Fit is so grindy (I fire off a Liliana ultimate somewhere in here) that he isn't able to win outright. He ends up winning the game after also Reanimating Jin Gitaxias and, finally, Emrakul.

Game Three: My sequence is Thoughtseize, Explorer + Therapy, Eternal Witness, Rhino, Green Sun's for Meren. My opponent top decks and Entomb, and puts Jin Gitaxias in the graveyard. I untap, Green Sun's Zenith for Scooze, eat the Jin Gitaxias, and my opponent concedes.

No major lessons learned this week, just a few misplays I'll store in my memory and not make again. I'm largely happy with the 75 and there isn't anything in the deck that I know I want to change other than finding room for a third Top, probably at the expense of Courser or Vindicate. I know my deck is considerably more "old school" than many that are championed in this forum, but I'm a firm believer in playing powerful, consistent, and disruptive cards that get us to our unbeatable mid and late game plan of playing Standard and Modern cards in Legacy. Let me know what you think!

[Arianrhod]

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

The first is an updated Scapewish:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
2 Painful Truths

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//sb
3 Pyroblast
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cabal Therapy

It's debatable if the 3rd Huntmaster should instead be a Meren of Clan Nel Toth -- testing has been inconclusive so far.

What has not been inconclusive is the fact that, at least in Scapewish, Painful Truths is unfuckingbelievable. The card is everything Scapewish ever wanted -- not just maindeck, but also by being a bridge "go-to" wish target in the board for when you're not ready to Scapeshift someone yet, but you also don't need to answer a problem, which was a hole that existed in Scape for a very long time and caused a number of problems.

This version of Scape feels very, very good. If you want to win tournaments with Nic Fit, I strongly recommend this list (or one very close to it).

-------------

Alternatively, you could be me, and prefer to have fun (slash have sold off a lot of scapewish pieces in the last couple of months because unemployment sucks).

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

[sdematt]

IT'S ALIVE!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPmVhyHBRAM

-Matt :)

[Brael]

To be honest, he also runs a Sigarda

But that doesn't have to be a problem. You just need to play enough spot removal to clear the road or some more beef. I'd switch Courser #2 for Rhino #4 and Sylvan Library for Path to Exile #3.

I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

[LordOMJ]

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

I've been playing BUG Pod since Meren came out, and while I've been impressed with the deck's ability to generate value I have been missing the prevalence of combat-relevant bodies (coughcoughSiegeRhinocoughcough). The idea of a 4+ color shell has definitely been kicking around in my head too. No list to share (yet), but I wanted to endorse the mad-scientist deck approach.

My only specific feedback for your list is that 1 Savannah feels like too few fetchable white sources and that a full 8 fetch lands would be helpful for grabbing the Taiga too. I'd be inclined to cut a Bayou, 2 basics and the Mana Confluence.

[Ralf]

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

The first is an updated Scapewish:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
2 Painful Truths

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

//sb
3 Pyroblast
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Cabal Therapy


I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

Few questions:

1) Is Nissa really better than the second Sakura/Wood Elves ? For sure, it gives you more lategame power but is likely more detrimental against MU where speed is key, because it doesn't ramp (also basic forest could be a liability...)

2) In my fuck..g world, Scapeshift is always in my starting hand or when I don't need it/dead card. Have you tested going down to 2, especially since you have included Painful Truth ?

3) I am a proponent for the 3 MD / 1 SB Therapy as I have won multiple games on the backfoot of a wished + flashbacked CT.
Still, only 3 discard spells MD makes me shiver like a naked baby.
Reducing our combo hate + our own combo speed (less ramp) is asking for troubles and Nic Fit is not known for being really efficient against combo decks. If this is the path you are taking, going down to 2 Scape makes even more sense (threat heavier / less combo..y)

4) I feel like Boseiju is heavily redundant (CITP is something I really dislike). 3 Pyro / 3 SLG should be enough to push through a wall of countermagic.

5) No gravehate SB ?
From my point of view pyro is very weak in a proactive deck like Scapeshift. I would take any chance to discard + surgical before playing pyro. And I'm speaking about personal experience here; as having to hold one mana (red, here) has been eventually detrimental:
a) If you play pyro you have to assess whether holding one mana for pyro is better than advancing your game (which you would do anyway 98 % time, because we all know about the risk aversion's theory). Not to mention that this is an easy move to read for a competent opponent.
b) If you don't play pyro, you can still pretend/bluffing playing it if you don't need to tap out.

6) No Toxic SB ?
I'm not a ferocious proponent for Toxic as a wish target but still we do have to respect aggro strategies (elfes, merfolk, tokens etc...).
You were complaining about not having a clear out to Elves and I feel like the mini recurring loop (Pyro or Deed/E.W/Meren) can be as nasty as it gets and difficult to break for an elves player if you get to that point (actually getting to pyro the board once should give you enough time to GSZ+E.W pyro again or deed which should give you enough time to assemble the aforementioned loop).

7) What if you cut Primeval Titan for Meren ?

I have never tried Nissa, but I feel like it could be your lategame bomb (freeing up one slot MD). It gives you space for Meren which provides you a lot of recurring options.
Still one has to assess whether games won by Titan would have been won with Meren/Nissa

Anyway, as usual thank for sharing your ideas and let's discuss.

Ralf

[Arianrhod]

@Ralf:

1) The card's power is definitely worth it imo. The 2nd Wood Elves was always kind of an awkward slot, so I'm glad to upgrade it to something a bit less embarrassing in the mid-to-late game. Basic Forest could be an issue, and is something I have my eye on. The deck might need an 8th basic, likely a 4th Forest. It would probably come at the cost of the 3rd Bayou, which is a little steep of a cost, but it's either that or the 3rd Verdant, which I think is more important. Maybe the 2nd Swamp? I dunno yet.

2) I didn't build the list for myself; I built it for my roommate, who is primarily a combo player. I personally would probably just run it as a 2-of, but he really wants to be able to kill people, so, your mileage (should) vary.

3) This is a sideeffect of the Painful Truths. Painful Truths is too crazy in this deck to not run, and there are a very limited number of spots -- you'll note that there wasn't enough room for maindeck Decays, either, which is something that has been good and likely still is. On the flip side, Truths helps you draw into more Wishes, more Therapies, and more gas to drown out counter protection. This build of the deck leans a little more on Scapeshift density than on clearing the way first and then resolving. I could see cutting 1 Scapeshift for 1 Thoughtseize, but I just don't think that the slots exist for 2 copies maindeck without some serious sacrifices.

4) It could be. I respect Miracles as a deck and want to be able to push through that matchup. I personally think that the degree of improvement in the Miracles matchup when you have a land (which they have no way of removing) which makes your kill card uninteractable is worth one space. If you want to skate without it, I'm certainly not going to fault you for that opinion.

5) Graveyard decks have always been Scape's achilles heel -- reanimator is unwinnable, and dredge is close. I have said in the past that trying to beat graveyard-based combo decks with Scapewish is not worth the space you need to sacrifice to accomplish it, and I maintain that opinion. You beat Reanimator and friends by dodging it, not by junking up your sideboard with a couple Tormod's Crypts that you'll never draw / resolve anyway.

6) I actually thought about Deluge long and hard when I was assembling the list. I came to the conclusion that you don't actually need it. Deluge was always primarily for True-Name Nemesis, which is a card that doesn't have a lot of market share at the moment. It's not awful to board in vs Elves, but I'm of the opinion that it's too slow most of the time. If you want to beat Elves, you really need to sideboard ~3 Pyroclasms to make it happen, which then cuts into your Slaughter Games slots. If you cut the 3rd Scape maindeck for a Thoughtseize, and then cut Thoughtseize 2 and Boseiju from the sideboard for 2x Pyroclasm, Elves probably becomes a much better matchup -- but, again, I don't think it really becomes favorable at any point, and I'd still rather have the Boseiju to make Miracles strongly favored.

7) I learned a long time ago to never cut Primeval Titan in Scape. The card wins you so many games that you have no right winning. If the choice was between Primeval and Nissa, and I could somehow only have one of them, I would still choose Primeval in this deck. Some games you'll stare at it and be like, why is this piece of shit in my deck -- and those games feel bad, sure, but they're a trap, because Primetime is a bro and he'll pull your ass out of the fire when you need him to.

---------------

@LordOMJ:

You don't need fetchable white sources, really. You have Brainstorm, Jacestorm, and Green Suns if Bad Shit (tm) happens to your white sources. More often than not, your plan is to Zenith out Rhinos, not cast them. You also have 2 Deathrites that can assist, and if you know you're on the cast-a-rhino plan, you can always Zenith up a Deathrite a turn or two earlier to be ready just in case.

There's already 6 fetches, so if you wanted to go up to 8, you'd only need two cuts, which likely means the Bayou and the Confluence. I like the idea of the Confluence, but agree that it needs testing to see actual relevance. Going fewer than 7 basics is not something I am going to do -- 7 has always worked well for me, going back many, many years now.

I'll note that I'm basing the manabase off of my white list's manabase, which has never had a problem supporting Slaughter Games in combo matchups with 6 fetch 1 taiga 2 deathrite as the only red sources -- in that light, this version is already ahead on sources since it also has the confluence.

[rubblekill]

After playing the deck a lot and having read this thread pretty much daily, I can say I have my decent share of experience on how this archetype works. I have to say thanks to all the wonderful people that contribute to this thread daily and respond in a very educated and thoughtful manner. So let's see the list I'm currently working with at the moment; I only play junk so I won't consider Jund and BUG. One last thing: the Painful Truths are still there because I simply want to play a little bit more with them to allow myself to form a definite opinion about them. I don't like Painful Truths to be honest, but I hate to admit that against Miracles I want to have a constant flow of threats to cast, especially when both we and the opponent are in top deck mode with 1-2 cards in hand. I find that in this frequent situation we can only play 1 dumb dude that's pretty much gonna be forced or counterspelled; as it is clear to everyone top helps our draws but doesn't give us raw power to put on the table.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile

1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heaths*
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
(don't watch my manabase, I know it isn't optimal but that's for budget reasons)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tsunami
1 Gaddock Teeg


My considerations:
-I like the sideboard, I have followed your ideas and I'm happy with how it plays. After G1 I feel we have a shot against storm, and to me that alone is surprising considering we are playing Rhino.dec. Carpet is a must, I'd never play without them.

-Teeg in the sideboard. I have played with him in the main for a long time but he really is the key part of our survival plan only against storm (and elves, right?); occasionally he would prevent my opponent to cast Jace (in my opinion people in this thread generally underestimate how Jace can destroy us) but that was only situational, and I think that in these kind of Jace matchups he is just gonna bait a Stp and/or is not gonna stay on the table very much.

-Volrath Stronghold. I know. I'll have fun with it for a bit and I will eventually take it out.

-Elspeth, Garruk, Thrun and Tsunami are the bombs for the blue.dec matchups. Thrun and Elspeth have been amazing for me and have won me games; I still don't know if I wanna 100% keep Tsunami but I like to force the opponent to have a counterspell or die to this kind of cards. We want to drop bombs after durdling, after all.

-I have decided I want to treat Meren as a value-bomb, but I am not willing to warp my main plan to accomodate for her. I don't like intents anyways, and I have chosen to not play Qasali Pridemage.

-No Courser of Kruphix for the reasons I have posted a couple of days ago.

-Judgement is coming in the planeswalkers matchups, where WW is not going to be a problem. I could, maybe should, play Vindicate because of the easier cost.

-3 Rhino: he is our best friend but 4 is too much. In my opinion 2 is too few because the helix attached to him has won me a lot of games, and this lead me to think that I wanna see him more often just to be able to win off the drain 3 effect, even in otherwise desperate/unwinnable situations (Ricardio, I'm sure you can confirm that winning vs Miracles with the helix is one of the best feelings ever).

That is all. I'm still learning from all the people here, but I wanted to post to get some feedback and to say what I have gathered during my testing sessions. Excuse me again for my english, I'm sure I have made some mistake somewhere.

[Ralf]

@Ralf:

1) The card's power is definitely worth it imo. The 2nd Wood Elves was always kind of an awkward slot, so I'm glad to upgrade it to something a bit less embarrassing in the mid-to-late game. Basic Forest could be an issue, and is something I have my eye on. The deck might need an 8th basic, likely a 4th Forest. It would probably come at the cost of the 3rd Bayou, which is a little steep of a cost, but it's either that or the 3rd Verdant, which I think is more important. Maybe the 2nd Swamp? I dunno yet.

2) I didn't build the list for myself; I built it for my roommate, who is primarily a combo player. I personally would probably just run it as a 2-of, but he really wants to be able to kill people, so, your mileage (should) vary.

3) This is a sideeffect of the Painful Truths. Painful Truths is too crazy in this deck to not run, and there are a very limited number of spots -- you'll note that there wasn't enough room for maindeck Decays, either, which is something that has been good and likely still is. On the flip side, Truths helps you draw into more Wishes, more Therapies, and more gas to drown out counter protection. This build of the deck leans a little more on Scapeshift density than on clearing the way first and then resolving. I could see cutting 1 Scapeshift for 1 Thoughtseize, but I just don't think that the slots exist for 2 copies maindeck without some serious sacrifices.

4) It could be. I respect Miracles as a deck and want to be able to push through that matchup. I personally think that the degree of improvement in the Miracles matchup when you have a land (which they have no way of removing) which makes your kill card uninteractable is worth one space. If you want to skate without it, I'm certainly not going to fault you for that opinion.

5) Graveyard decks have always been Scape's achilles heel -- reanimator is unwinnable, and dredge is close. I have said in the past that trying to beat graveyard-based combo decks with Scapewish is not worth the space you need to sacrifice to accomplish it, and I maintain that opinion. You beat Reanimator and friends by dodging it, not by junking up your sideboard with a couple Tormod's Crypts that you'll never draw / resolve anyway.

6) I actually thought about Deluge long and hard when I was assembling the list. I came to the conclusion that you don't actually need it. Deluge was always primarily for True-Name Nemesis, which is a card that doesn't have a lot of market share at the moment. It's not awful to board in vs Elves, but I'm of the opinion that it's too slow most of the time. If you want to beat Elves, you really need to sideboard ~3 Pyroclasms to make it happen, which then cuts into your Slaughter Games slots. If you cut the 3rd Scape maindeck for a Thoughtseize, and then cut Thoughtseize 2 and Boseiju from the sideboard for 2x Pyroclasm, Elves probably becomes a much better matchup -- but, again, I don't think it really becomes favorable at any point, and I'd still rather have the Boseiju to make Miracles strongly favored.

7) I learned a long time ago to never cut Primeval Titan in Scape. The card wins you so many games that you have no right winning. If the choice was between Primeval and Nissa, and I could somehow only have one of them, I would still choose Primeval in this deck. Some games you'll stare at it and be like, why is this piece of shit in my deck -- and those games feel bad, sure, but they're a trap, because Primetime is a bro and he'll pull your ass out of the fire when you need him to.


Thanks for your thoughts, here are some additional comments:

1) Boseiju does not help you casting Pernicious Deed, Creatures, Pyro. Aside from GSZ and Scape, the card is too narrow to my taste. Miracle is all about resolving a Pernicious & some SLG(s).
Furthermore, boseiju is a dead sideboard card in too many MU(s) (every non blue MU to be honest).

2) I was not talking about Tormod Crypt. Surgical extraction is a card I have learnt to respect. It has a wider application than Pyro and can mess up pretty big time with Miracle as well. I wouldn't focus on Dredge, Rea only. Any combo deck should also respect the card as it can give you way more free wins than Pyro. Coupled with CT and TS you can really shred a hand or take out a major combo piece. The fact that it has collateral damage against Rea, Dredge, ANT, Miracle just to name a few (miracle card, tops, FOW, snapcaster) is just cherry on the cake.
If I had really wanted to speak about gravehate against dredge or Rea, I would have named Scavenging Ooze (Dryad Militant to a lesser extend) and I already know your position about it.
And if you wonder I'm not routing for Surgical at any costs. If we find a better card than those, we shall play it.

3) Don't get me wrong. I don't criticize your list. Choices have to be made and I'm just trying to weight the pros and cons of each slot.
My point about Primeval is that I can see him as a very costly slot. Cannot we win against as many MU as without him (with cheaper card) ? That is the question I am asking (and that has to be addressed somehow).
The fact that it saved your (and mine) ass several times by the past should not prevent us from weighting its impact on the current metagame.

- Where did Primetime shine above all ? From experience, it shined mainly in grindy MU (mainly against BSK.deck to be honest). I truly think Meren and Nissa could do the same work (but it has to be assessed). Why ?

For example, against D&T, you would be able to trick your opponent once with Meren (when karakas is tapped out). Here, Meren is low.
What about Nissa ? It could be a gamebreaker, here. G1 D&T has no way to deal with eight 6/6 if you can reach the ulti. But Nissa can also be bounced by Karakas in response to the land trigger.
When you have both Meren and Nissa in hand, 7 mana untapped mana is all what you need to play around a karakas.
Is it enough ? Or is Primeval better ?

- What are the other MU(s) where Primeval could have shined (is shining):
a) Miracle (killing a Jace is nice)
b) Jund / Shardless (killing a liliana, bob, some creature)
c) S&T (giving you enough permanents to survive a sneaked Emrakul)
d) I might forget a few other but its main other application is to get use of the valakut triggers without playing Scape.

Do you truly think that Nissa + Meren cannot do the same or bring other winning lines of play?
Maybe or maybe not.

But I'm pretty sure I'm not looking at any card in my deck like a "bro" that can pull my ass out of nowhere. I want a clear pattern (lines of play) of what to do against any MU. If Primeval is better than Meren+Nissa in just one more MU than the pair, Primeval will be played. That's all.

I also might be wrong about Primetime and maybe (as you wrote) a huntmaster has to go to make room for Meren.
Although in legacy, I usually start by cutting the top of the curve. Because I want to have the maximum impact in the very first turns.
Dying with an almighty Primetime in hand happens (and more likely than with a Huntmaster or a Meren).

4) You have reduced the mana ramp amount of your scape list (at some point, you were playing 2 sakura 2 Wood elves). I was not suggesting that you have cut a Wood Elves for a Nissa. It could have been Wood or Sakura. I'm just stating that your list has 1 less ramp creature and thus that the list is less about ramping as fast as possible to get a Scape kill. The "basic forest" thing might not be a cute trap at all.
I learnt that fixing mana is key in Scape and having access to the color you lack by T3 was maybe one of the strengh of the original list.

Well, these comments are just food for thoughts just to keep us alerted that any deck should evolve. What has worked in the past, may or may not work again or we might have better/cheaper solutions that lead us to the same goal: games win.

Or the Spike/Timmy, that live within me, cannot get along together and I should just let it go...

[Nargoron]

Hi guys,
today i was testing my junk version
i posted my list 2 or 3 pages back, only made some little changes, for example add Diabolic intent -oooh boy!
ok, at first i played against BUG
i play bad and made mistakes, games was long, but still 2:0 for nic fit
Only creeping tar pit was enoying

Next i was playing against mono blue faries with stand stills
This MU was much harder then i expect Stifling + wastelandings... and back to basic?! ....
veteran gave him his basics and he can cast and attach jitte to his delvers and faries
BUT stoneforge supporting us with Sword of fire and ice was often enough, especialy on Sigarda :D

Last MU i tried was mono red stompy with goblin packages
His silver bullets wasnt silver enough against nic fit...
Sweepers was just decimating

In every MU i drawed Diabolic intent .... and this card is huuuuge!!!
Toxic deluge, Sword of fire and ice... sigarda... whatever you want, whatever you need
When u r playing Intent, Dryad is must...
Funny combo is when u have intent and 2 veterans, or veteran + phyrexial tower...
sac veteran to intent, get two lands, fetch for tower, sac second vet, get 2 lands, get two mana from tower..
but its not often constalation... but opponents face is just WTF

And after today playing , iam glad for Stoneforge and his little tools
In early game you have presure..
When u have mana screw, you can still casting threats
In late game its 1/2 guy which can fetch for 5mana batterbomb or sword which is still key card in some MU
And finaly its next body for Intent when she did his job
EDIT:
i almost forget about Meren...
When i cast sigarda every turn, she ate daze, second time FoW .. and meren still put her back to my hand and opponent with faeriest desperatly try to get her out

[Ralf]

And after today playing , iam glad for Stoneforge and his little tools
In early game you have presure..
When u have mana screw, you can still casting threats
In late game its 1/2 guy which can fetch for 5mana batterbomb or sword which is still key card in some MU
And finaly its next body for Intent when she did his job

Yes.
SFM package is huge in Junk Nic Fit and you have perfectly summ'd the reasons to play it.
I would also add that SFM package might be the best tool (ever) against rogue deck in general.

T3 -> BSK/jitte is a hell of a deal for any fair deck.

[Echelon]

I have two lists for everyones' consideration. I've been tinkering with these the last couple of days and feel ready to present them now.

...

I've been tinkering with the idea of an "ultimate fit" for a while now. The concept has been thus:

BUG versions are the most stable, historically, because they have Brainstorm and Jace as additional sculpting tools, as well as Baleful Strix as a powerful 2-drop.
White versions gain Rhino, which is bar none the strongest 4-drop we have access to at the moment.
Red versions gain Slaughter Games, which is bar none the strongest combo/miracles hate we have access to at the moment.

Both white and blue versions have recently adopted splashing red via a pair of Deathrite Shamans and a Taiga, in order to gain access to Slaughter. The question I've had the last couple weeks is, why not go full Zoidberg and take the consistency of blue, the power of white, and the hate of red, and blend them together.

I present Ultimate Fit:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Thragtusk
1 Deadeye Navigator
1 Consecrated Sphinx

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Brainstorm

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Mana Confluence

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Engineered Plague

It's taken me a while to get this list to the point where I was comfortable presenting it, because there's a lot of moving pieces and a lot of hidden packages that need to flow together correctly in the design for it to actually work out when playing it.

There are two things I am unhappy with at the moment. The first is the distribution of creatures -- the 4 spot is a bit heavy, while the 3 spot is a bit weaker. I may end up cutting a Rhino in favor of another 3-drop, but I am very undecided on that at this point. The second issue that I have with it is the lack of maindeck spot removal. Two pieces of spot removal is the fewest maindeck that I feel comfortable with, and I prefer to be in the ~4-5 range. At the end of the day, though, there are just too many things going on to be able to fit in traditional spot removal. Jace's -1 + Cabal Therapy technically counts, as does Baleful Strix -- so the deck is on somewhere around 2-3 pieces of nontraditional removal if you count them as .5 of a removal (which I personally do).

The lack of removal is compensated by the raw lifegain in this deck. It's running a -lot-. The idea is to stall, ramp, and overpower. Postboard you gain Carpets, Decays, and Flusterstorms (and probably E.Plagues if Grixis). Whether or not it can hold up to Delver adequately in this form remains to be seen -- but that's just about the only thing I'm worried about.

I'm going to be attempting to tune this up a little and give some more thoughts on it in a couple of days, but I wanted to get it out there for discussion now.

Dude, you need to run removal. Lifegain is fun and all, but you have to survive to the point where that lifegain actually starts to happen. I think you'd be better of with Rhino Fit + Brainstorm & Ponder, if you can get the manabase to work. The blue stuff just doesn't have enough impact to warrant its place.


I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

Meh, just durdle durdle, Rhino Rhino. Works perfectly.


...

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile

1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Windswept Heaths*
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs*
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
(don't watch my manabase, I know it isn't optimal but that's for budget reasons)

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Duress
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Plague
1 Tsunami
1 Gaddock Teeg

...

Your manabase is fine. I'd switch the Stronghold for a BW fetch and perhaps drop red & Taiga for a 2nd BW fetch. That'd leave you with the manabase I run and I can tell you it works just fine. No need to run more Bayous and friends.


Hi guys,
today i was testing my junk version
i posted my list 2 or 3 pages back, only made some little changes, for example add Diabolic intent -oooh boy!

...

In every MU i drawed Diabolic intent .... and this card is huuuuge!!!
Toxic deluge, Sword of fire and ice... sigarda... whatever you want, whatever you need
When u r playing Intent, Dryad is must...


You're welcome & yep, it is.

[Nargoron]

You're welcome & yep, it is.
Yep , thanks for advice :)

Aaand, now i know why you like slaughters game in side...
i lose 2:0 against loaming pox with Merit Lege... two times in a row i just warch this cheap combo and cant do enything ...
In game two:he played 2x crop rotation, slaughters game after the first one result would be cute :(

[Echelon]

I'm not the Slaughtergames fanatic... I'm the guy with the endless supply of Path to Exiles.

[Nargoron]

I'm not the Slaughtergames fanatic... I'm the guy with the endless supply of Path to Exiles.
Yea i try to find Swords but when he played 2x crop rotation on the end of your turn... there is not much time for that ....

I can use from my SB:
1xNeedle
2xBlood moon
1x Vindicate - but sorcery speed is rly bad for this :/
and probably 1 piece of Slaughters game put to my SB, not sure yet...

In main i have:
1x Karakas
1x Diabolic Intent for Karakas

This games drive me back to idea of Knight of the Reliquary for fetch Karakas...

[Echelon]

So... I've got a 16 man invitational coming up this saturday. I'm expecting at least the following opponents:
1 Grixis Delver w/ a minor green splash for his DRS
1 Lands
1/2 Miracles
1/2 BUG/Shardless Bug
3 ANT/TES
1 Maverick
1 fellow Abzan Nic Fit
1 Burn
and 3 players I don't know from the top of my head.

I reckon the biggest threats are Lands (unless I get my fancy Meren + sac outlet + Eternal Witness + PtE engine online quickly), Miracles and the Storm decks.

My regular SB is as follows:
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace

Does anyone have any tips on what changes to make to the SB? My main 60 are going to be the same as at the monthly, with the exception of switching a DRS for a Starved Rusalka (yes, I'm nuts). I'm also toying with the idea of switching a MB Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg to increase my chances of stealing game 1 vs. Storm. Thoughts on that?

[Ralf]

Does anyone have any tips on what changes to make to the SB? My main 60 are going to be the same as at the monthly, with the exception of switching a DRS for a Starved Rusalka (yes, I'm nuts). I'm also toying with the idea of switching a MB Pernicious Deed for a Gaddock Teeg to increase my chances of stealing game 1 vs. Storm. Thoughts on that?

Do you have your usual sideboard tables ready ?

Without them it would be difficult to give you any useful advice.

Gaddock is usually an auto-win vs Storm but chances you will be able to cast it are very low. Why ?

If you are not dead by T2, it means that the following sequence has took place (assuming you are on the play):

T1 -> land + cantrip (ponder for example)
T2 -> land + Cabal/Duress for a T3 kill.

If your opponent knows you are on NicFit, they will usually name/take GSZ.

So based on this scenario, your best bet might not be "Gaddock". I would pick any hatebear @ 1 CMC.

Dryad Militant might be a better choice given the number of Storm you are anticipating.
Sure, they still can get out of it, but it is a real pain in the ass.

Not to mention that Dryad has also a wider application against some of your MUs:
- Miracle -> Gaddock is better, but still Dryad has to be dealt with because it messes pretty hard with snapcaster shenanigans (in other words, your opponent HAS to STP it before any other creature if not STP will be exiled)
- Storm -> Gaddock is auto win G1. Dryad only makes sure the PIF plan is out of contention (not much use against TES but well you never know) and will give you a shit load of time to kill him (mess up with cabal ritual as well, etc...).
- Lands -> Dryad is an all star, Gaddock is useless. It will exile the first PF if dealt with or will completely shut up Loam if your opponent doesn't find a removal for it.
- BUG -> Dryad is not very strong, Gaddock is almost useless (save FOW). At least Goyf won't grow fast and there will be no/less food for DRS ping ability (and you are in the control seat here so the longer the game lasts, the better if you ask me)
- Burn -> I guess Dryad is slightly better. Gaddock will shut their biggest spell but also will prevent you from casting GSZ which is here very detrimental. Dryad will be able to block a turn faster and will mess with lavamancer.
- Maverick -> it depends of the Maverick version (straight GW or dark maverick or punish Mav etc...) none are really very useful here save the exile 1st PF thing.

My 2 cents

[Echelon]

Do you have your usual sideboard tables ready ?

Without them it would be difficult to give you any useful advice.

I usually go with what feels right. For the mentioned MU's I'd probably SB as follows:

Miracles:
+ 2 Carpet of Flowers
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
- 2 Veteran Explorer
- 2 Path to Exile
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Deathrite Shaman

ANT:
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile
- 2 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Dragonlord Dromoka

TES:
+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Golgari Charm
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile
- 1 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Dragonlord Dromoka
- 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

Lands:
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Pithing Needle
- 2 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Deathrite Shaman
- 1 Veteran Explorer

For the other MU's I depend less heavily on the SB (ie. I'd almost be comfortable with playing G2 and/or G3 with the same 60 as I start with).

[Ralf]

I have also edited my previous post.

1) Miracles:

+ 3 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Duress
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Qasali Pridemage
+ 1 Golgari charm
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 3 Veteran Explorer
- 4 Path to Exile (-2 if monastery)
- 1 Fierce Empath
- 1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

DRS is an all-star vs Snapcaster. Just be clever and use it on sorcery speed cards in your opponent's graveyard at his EOT.
If STP is in the grave, just use it anyway (not on STP, always on sorcery speed). It will give a window for your opponent to flashback the said STP but I truly believe that we have to be aggressive in this MU. It is also a play I like very much because your opponent might have to full tap for casting that Snap + STP, giving you a very nice window to cast something useful during your turn.

Cabal Therapy is bad in this MU. You will likely have very few creatures in play and you cannot really make card disadvantage if you don't hit. Duress is your must-go-to.

I won't be that much afraid by Monastery if I were you. But well, if you really want to keep some PTE...

Golgari is a card I have known to appreciate as a 1-of or 2-of. It can save you from an aggro hand (clique + snap / monastery aggro), lethal entreat, and can deal with CB. Just be sure to take the maximum value out of it. It is sometime a dead card but can be really helpful.

2) TES / ANT

No difference here.
ANT will likely bank his ass on Empty the Warren on G2. Golgari + Deed must stay in. I would go with TES sideboard.
Try to keep Dragonlord in. I know you have 0.0001 % to cast it but it races tokens and can put you out of reach really really fast.

3) Lands

I would keep every DRS. I know it dies to PF but it messes with its loam/PF engine. You will always almost want to start a hand with a DRS in it. It also bypasses the Glacial chasm thing (like Rhino).

[Ralf]

Iam little bit diaspointed cose of missing Pithing needle
This little thorn can be pretty anoying for lots of decks...
Miracle- lock Jace, ban Top if you dont have your own... but still he needs top more then u
Elves ban his symbiote is deadly in combination with sweepers... and disturb his glimpse combo hard, or Quirion or whatever he has on the table...
Kill Dark depth combo and this sort of stuffs..
Maverick is pretty enoying with his mothers... or wasteland cycle with Knight. his equipments and so on...
and there is much more...

For 1 mana, yes please :)

Read back !
Echelon is playing 2 Pithing.

[Echelon]

Yup, they're too versatile not to.

@NagsOn: Why should I care about a KotR/Wasteland lock..? My 7 basics give me all the mana I need. As for Mother of Runes - PtE while it's still summoning sick works perfectly, as do Golgari Charm and Pernicious Deed. No need for Pithing Needle in that MU.

Also, as an Elves! player - Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote does not stop the Glimpse chain in the slightest and is very easily answered with GSZ -> Reclamation Sage. Seriously, it isn't even a speedbump.

[Nargoron]

Yup, they're too versatile not to.

@NagsOn: Why should I care about a KotR/Wasteland lock..? My 7 basics give me all the mana I need. As for Mother of Runes - PtE while it's still summoning sick works perfectly, as do Golgari Charm and Pernicious Deed. No need for Pithing Needle in that MU.

Also, as an Elves! player - Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote does not stop the Glimpse chain in the slightest and is very easily answered with GSZ -> Reclamation Sage. Seriously, it isn't even a speedbump.

Not just Lock... but KotR can overgrow your Rhino pretty quick and its main weapon of maverick, same the equipments..
Pernicious Deed, ok but dont forget that he has Abrupts and Quasali.. often you have to saf Deed in turn you play it , and not often u have 6 mana to kill all his dudes..
Deed is ofc the best what you can get against Maverick, but Needle can help... Maverick rly depend on activating abilites
and some version play dark depth combo... so again you can stop him with needle

Elves: very often elves keep in play only cose of symbiote
Its one of the best card of the deck....
I maybe dont understand nic fit, but i know elves very well... and needles pissed me off ...
And if he spent his GSZ... then it was a good deal for u

But i dont wanna tell you that in some situation Golgarys charm is better...
But in my oppinion needle has more use in more mu then golgarys charm... maybe just in my meta, maybe not..
but still needle is good card and you cant say that its not true

[Echelon]

Not just Lock... but KotR can overgrow your Rhino pretty quick and its main weapon of maverick, same the equipments..
Pernicious Deed, ok but dont forget that he has Abrupts and Quasali.. often you have to saf Deed in turn you play it , and not often u have 6 mana to kill all his dudes..
Deed is ofc the best what you can get against Maverick, but Needle can help... Maverick rly depend on activating abilites

Elves: very often elves keep in play only cose of symbiote
Its one of the best card of the deck....
I maybe dont understand nic fit, but i know elves very well... and needles pissed me off ...
And if he spent his GSZ... then it was a good deal for u

We have DRS & Scavenging Ooze to keep KotR in check (if we're unable to PtE it in the first place) so we don't need to waste slots on Peedles there. And equipments need platforms to do anything. And die from our own (recurring) Qasali Pridemage. Deed you often blow for 1/2 mana. And who cares about wiping his entire board? As long as Deed is a 2 for 1 or better, it's fine by me. For any creatures remaining post-Deed we have other answers.

You're also not the only Elves! player here. And I seriously don't give a rats ass about Needle when wearing my Elves!-cap. Just keep building your board and NO right over it. Yeah, Symbiote is the best elf in the deck but also the one that dies the quickest. Its average lifespan is <1 turn so sorry if I'm not overly attached to it. I much more fear the Rhino that keeps coming my way b/c I can't answer it. If I start blocking, I'm pretty much fucked. I also fear my board getting Golgari Charm'd away.

[Nargoron]

We have DRS & Scavenging Ooze to keep KotR in check (if we're unable to PtE it in the first place) so we don't need to waste slots on Peedles there. And equipments need platforms to do anything. And die from our own (recurring) Qasali Pridemage. Deed you often blow for 1/2 mana. And who cares about wiping his entire board? As long as Deed is a 2 for 1 or better, it's fine by me. For any creatures remaining post-Deed we have other answers.

You're also not the only Elves! player here. And I seriously don't give a rats ass about Needle when wearing my Elves!-cap. Just keep building your board and NO right over it. Yeah, Symbiote is the best elf in the deck but also the one that dies the quickest. Its average lifespan is <1 turn so sorry if I'm not overly attached to it.

your choice...
you asked for advices, this is my advice , i like needle, you dont, you dont have to play it :)

[Echelon]

your choice...
you asked for advices, this is my advice , i like needle, you dont, you dont have to play it :)

I run 2 Needles in my SB, learn to read. I'm just of the opinion that they're mostly wasted on Elves! and I'm better off keeping the threatcount as high as possible. The biggest threat Elves! poses is the turn 3 (or any other turn) NO -> Craterhoof. Needle does not answer that threat. Same goes for the Maverick MU - the threats Maverick pose are nothing I cannot answer so why dilute my 60 with Needles?

Also, there'll be no (known) Elves! pilots in the invitational the sideboarding discussion was about, so who cares about boarding in or not boarding in Peedles against it. In this case it's a non-argument to run Peedles. So, again, learn to read.

[Nargoron]

I'm just of the opinion that they're mostly wasted on Elves! and I'm better off keeping the threatcount as high as possible. The biggest threat Elves! poses is the turn 3 (or any other turn) NO -> Craterhoof. Needle does not answer that threat.
I agree that if he had what he need u r screwed and no needle help you...
especialy t2...
but there are not much cards which rly does
Elves and other combo MU is just about hoping in good draw... in ideal situation discart his glimpse or NO , sweep his board and start with your bombs



So, again, learn to read.
No need to be offense, iam writting here to discus with you your sideboard.

[Tom4ik]

Needle is pretty poor against elves. The first few turns will need to be disruption, so TS, Duress, CT -> flashback when you are on a junk/jund deck because as @echelon said the way to lose against elves is the early NO. If you can stop that then you should have enough time to deploy a sweeper in the form of deed/decay and then leverage either pfire or trample + jitte to mop up.

Needle doesnt add to that game plan. This deck doesnt utilize (well except the new frankenstein-fit that was posted) brainstorm so you cant run cards that narrow in a matchup because you do not have a way to replace it. If you open on a needle that is a card you are down UNLESS you can craft the game to make needle valuable which is unlikely. I think this is reflective of the SB in general.

[Warden]

I played Nic Fit this past weekend. Didn't have all the cards for it but just wanted to have fun because IDGAF sometimes. It was refreshing to play a list "just for giggles". Ran into @Arianrhod, who was doing some interesting things.

I played Junk Nic Fit -- couldn't obtain Meren -- and felt Recurring Nightmare wasn't nearly as strong. I was stupid and forgot Teeg in the 75. I think Teeg is a maindeck necessity, based off this past experience.

Random thoughts:
1. Rhino


I cut a Rhino because I found 4 was leading to situations where I had too many stuck in my hand.

I ran 3 Rhino, 1 Tusk and felt that was a strong combination. For all the good in the world Rhino is, you better have his colors in the opening hand.

2. Sigarda is ridiculous in this deck
3. I ran 3 deeds and felt I needed 4. Even against Burn.
4. Slaughtering Games, even when it connected, didn't win me games against Miracles.
5. Deathrite Shaman was "okay" but not as strong as I had hoped. I went 3:3 Explorers/DRS and felt I saw too many inopportune Shamans. I actually could have benefited from a Wall or Sakura instead of DRS. Sounds awful on paper, doesn't it?
6. Despite running 3 Sensei's Tops, I and barely saw them. Variance is a thing.
7. In Junk-Fit, you shouldn't run KotR. I love her to death, but she's just not enough in Nic Fit. Played 0 this past weekend and never missed her.
8. Grave Titan = unnecessary
9. Tasigur = overachieved all day
10. Singleton Maelstrom Pulse should have been Vindicate. Why do I still neglect Vindicate?

[Ricardio]

Tasigur seems meh. I feel 3 deeds is the sweet spot.

Personally, I run 4 rhino and a tusk. They are amazing and I wouldn't cut them for anything. Other than a boat.

Sadly sfm went up on mtgo and I'm wary of spending dollars to get her and equipment to test out a sfm fit list.

[rubblekill]

Tasigur seems meh. I feel 3 deeds is the sweet spot.

Personally, I run 4 rhino and a tusk. They are amazing and I wouldn't cut them for anything. Other than a boat.

Sadly sfm went up on mtgo and I'm wary of spending dollars to get her and equipment to test out a sfm fit list.

Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards

[Bartawe]

I've been on three deed main and one in the board for awhile. I feel like I always either want to bring the one in the board in or take the the main board ones out. That said I like the configuration as I feel 3 is the minimum you want when it's good, and the 4th can come in when it's really good while making main board space for a more versatile card.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Bobmans]

Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards
Yesterday i was pondering with exactly the same question. Eventually i toyed around with the idea of cutting Siege Rhino of the deck. This, because i feel that Rhino does not work towards actual board control (similar to the control that Jund lists have). The flexibility the cards add that Rhino can't provide in bring the deck more to it's roots. What i came up with was (offcourse replacing Thrun, Tusk and STitan brings back Rhino action... completing the vicious circle):

Edit, tapatalk is not always the most clean way to post lists from memory:

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Sb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Golgari charm
1 Pithing Needle

[gth842s]

Are people speculating on sfm being unbanned in modern?
I don't even know what I'd cut for a sfm package..this is the most "compressed" deck I've ever played, so many options and good cards

The way I've run a StoneFit list has been to cut my top end (2 Grave Titans), cut 1 Deed because of the lack of synergy with your equipment (and the fact that Jitte is usually decent removal on its own), cut one flex spot (tutor / draw effect, this could be a Truths or a Wish or a Top), and cut one of my Lilianas or a piece of spot removal. My "finishers" / top of the curve end up being: 3 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 1 Jitte, 2 Rhino, sometimes 1 Meren, and 1 Titania. You lose some synergy and gain the ability to grind almost any deck in the format and to function on as few as 2 mana. It's a fun configuration but I honestly haven't had any more or less success with it than with a standard Junk Nic Fit deck. My gut says that it's even better against fair decks than traditional Nic Fit but sacrifices even more to combo.

Hope that helps.

[rubblekill]

Yesterday i was pondering with exactly the same question. Eventually i toyed around with the idea of cutting Siege Rhino of the deck. This, because i feel that Rhino does not work towards actual board control (similar to the control that Jund lists have). The flexibility the cards add that Rhino can't provide in bring the deck more to it's roots. What i came up with was (offcourse replacing Thrun, Tusk and STitan brings back Rhino action... completing the vicious circle):

Edit, tapatalk is not always the most clean way to post lists from memory:

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Sb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Golgari charm
1 Pithing Needle


But..but..muh rhino
This resembles a pre-ktk list right? I don't know man I feel that rhino is the core of the junk deck, I can't abandon him. In all seriousness if you add bob and wasteland you basically have dga, a deck that can grind harder with hymns, liliana and souls + bob ca in my opinion. With sfm we gain an advantage vs fair creature decks, but I feel like we lose something in the other mus? Please correct me if I'm wrong. By the way, with sfm the urge to play souls would be strong for me
No s games?? Explain your thought process please.

[Bobmans]

But..but..muh rhino

Rhino pleh!!


In all seriousness if you add bob and wasteland you basically have dga, a deck that can grind harder with hymns, liliana and souls + bob ca in my opinion. With sfm we gain an advantage vs fair creature decks, but I feel like we lose something in the other mus?

Playing NicFit vs the non-NicFit variants i have always preferred the NicFit decks, because those play out much nicer. I can't say that you should play DGA over Jund or NicFit. What i can say, and i can't say this enough, NicFit is very META sensitive and NicFit does have MU's where you'd want Wasteland or more midgame tempo. Having that said, there is shitty low room for ALL the goodstuff.
I dont thunk we loose anything with SFM vs other MU's. Combo, MUD, Lands and Eldrazi remain a nightmare, but att leasr SFM adds more control in the fair MU's.
And Rhino is a choice, not a must. In a meta where you'd want to play creative Rhino is not what you want to be doing. But we are blinded to often.


I don't know man I feel that rhino is the core of the junk deck, I can't abandon him.

No, we limit ourselves to much thinking Rhino is the core of NicFit, because it is not. Siege Rhino is a choice and not THE choice.


By the way, with sfm the urge to play souls would be strong for me

In NicFit i'd prefer Elspeth+Garruk any time over Lingering Souls. But i can't deny the cards power. Having that said, i really wouldn't know what to cut for them. Also, there is little synergy with Meren and Sun Titan.





No s games?? Explain your thought process please.

There are a couple of things that annoy me with SGames in Junk. 1. It pollutes my manabase. 2. It conflicts with Gaddock Teeg. 3. When not playing the card in jund it feels underwhelming. Now with point 3 i have no idea how that works, maybe it because SGames in jund has a more natural flow or just because there is no other stuff your focussing on, or because Liliana is there to.

[rubblekill]

Rhino pleh!!



Playing NicFit vs the non-NicFit variants i have always preferred the NicFit decks, because those play out much nicer. I can't say that you should play DGA over Jund or NicFit. What i can say, and i can't say this enough, NicFit is very META sensitive and NicFit does have MU's where you'd want Wasteland or more midgame tempo. Having that said, there is shitty low room for ALL the goodstuff.
I dont thunk we loose anything with SFM vs other MU's. Combo, MUD, Lands and Eldrazi remain a nightmare, but att leasr SFM adds more control in the fair MU's.
And Rhino is a choice, not a must. In a meta where you'd want to play creative Rhino is not what you want to be doing. But we are blinded to often.



No, we limit ourselves to much thinking Rhino is the core of NicFit, because it is not. Siege Rhino is a choice and not THE choice.



In NicFit i'd prefer Elspeth+Garruk any time over Lingering Souls. But i can't deny the cards power. Having that said, i really wouldn't know what to cut for them. Also, there is little synergy with Meren and Sun Titan.





There are a couple of things that annoy me with SGames in Junk. 1. It pollutes my manabase. 2. It conflicts with Gaddock Teeg. 3. When not playing the card in jund it feels underwhelming. Now with point 3 i have no idea how that works, maybe it because SGames in jund has a more natural flow or just because there is no other stuff your focussing on, or because Liliana is there to.

You Are probably right, we have so many options that limiting ourselves on a specific option (rhino) might be dumb, we have to be open minded I agree. I'll try different options and report back here my impressions.

[Jain_Mor]

Ask and ye shall receive

21/22 Land

2 Sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
1 diabolic intent
3 decay
3 Deed
1 Vindicate
1 painful truths
1 Flexy slot (2nd intent or 3rd top or 4th decay or whatever)

4 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 GSun
1 dryad
4 vet
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 ewit
1 Troll Ascetic (He turns your gsuns into thruns! And he still gets to that magic 5 power with equipments)
1 Meren
1 Rhino/Thrun (Pretty fun running 3 hexproof creatures, but trample is relevant)
1 Sigarda

Disruption, removal, sweepers, card selection and advantage, early game threats, late game threats and resilient sword carrying creatures to go over the top. (You haven't lived until a pro black Sigarda is happily fending off a Marit Lage until you find your batterskull)

Sideboard starts as
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
6 combo hate cards, usually hatebears and graveyard interaction

[rubblekill]

Ask and ye shall receive

21/22 Land

2 Sensei's top
4 cabal therapy
1 diabolic intent
3 decay
3 Deed
1 Vindicate
1 painful truths
1 Flexy slot (2nd intent or 3rd top or 4th decay or whatever)

4 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 GSun
1 dryad
4 vet
1 Teeg
1 Scooze
1 ewit
1 Troll Ascetic (He turns your gsuns into thruns! And he still gets to that magic 5 power with equipments)
1 Meren
1 Rhino/Thrun (Pretty fun running 3 hexproof creatures, but trample is relevant)
1 Sigarda

Disruption, removal, sweepers, card selection and advantage, early game threats, late game threats and resilient sword carrying creatures to go over the top. (You haven't lived until a pro black Sigarda is happily fending off a Marit Lage until you find your batterskull)

Sideboard starts as
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Golgari Charm
2 Tsunami
1 Reclamation Sage
6 combo hate cards, usually hatebears and graveyard interaction

I'm going to acquire the sfm package later, so I want to know what you and Bob think about the equipment selection and the number of squires. Once I decide to remove muh rhinos to play bsk and friends it seems weird to not play sofi

[Bobmans]

I'm going to acquire the sfm package later, so I want to know what you and Bob think about the equipment selection and the number of squires. Once I decide to remove muh rhinos to play bsk and friends it seems weird to not play sofi

When working on those lists i always try to dedicate 5 slots on the SFM package. Adding SoFaI would make perfect sense. So that would make 2 SFM and 3 Equipment.

I find Troll Ascetic interesting, but Sigarda and Thrun plus the protection for SoFaI and SoFaF it may be unnessesary.
I might now be pushing it, but Glissa, the Traitor looks Equipment friendly, and First Strike plus Deathtouch is insane.

[Jain_Mor]

@Bob,

You're thinking about troll ascetic in the wrong way. Statistically speaking you get Thrun off of a Greensun zenith more than you naturally cast him and we have therapies to push through counter spells, so the fact that Thrun is uncounterable is rarely relevant. So in the end Ascetic is just a cheaper Thrun. If you don't run equipment then Thrun being a bigger clock is relevant, but they both carry swords in the same manner. So if Ascetic is a cheaper Thrun (and is a resilient threat at the three drop (unlike knight etc)) then you can cut Thrun and then play siege rhino as your 4 drop beater for the life gain and trample.

Thrun doesn't make Ascetic unnecessary, Ascetic can make Thrun unecessary :P

I tried glissa awhile ago, and she just didn't fit the bill cause the deck is designed to blank their removal or make it irrelevant and glissa just dies to all the removal they have stranded in their hand. And You can fetch your destroyed equipments with Ewit :)

@rubble, I'm a man of consistency. If I'm playing Stoneforge mystic I'm building my deck around her and I'm playing 4. That's 8 creatures I'm happy to sac my turn 1 therapy to on turn 2.
That's 8 creatures that trade favourably with nearly all removal spells (only vet with a STP is a sad panda)
That's 8 creatures that transition me to the mid-late game (SFM is a great speed bump to keep your opponent occupied)

SFM mystic is also a green sun zenith of sorts, fitting in the curve at 2, 5, and 7 while fetching disruption, removal, card draw, life gain or a resilient threat.

Finally I don't like having a deck that can be stuck on 2-3 mana and not be doing anything because I didn't draw a therapy or a vet. SFM gives you a great way of mitigating that while still being a great card to top deck turn 29.

Regarding what equipment to run, when I run 4 SFM I run 3 equipment always. We don't have brainstorm to shuffle them back. I don't run Jitte cause it interferes with our Deeds and SoFaI is removal anyway. It's not like we are short of ways of dealing with small creatures..

It's important as well that the equipment isn't dead against combo because you're dedicating a lot of cards in your deck to SFM (that said the other cards you would have played instead would likely be just as useful against combo and SFM is cheaper and sacs to therapy and diabolic intent while fetching something at least slightly relevant)

I run SoFaI for the card advantage, removal and the pressure (I just raced a turn 2 reanimated Iona set on white through two force of will because my second diabolic intent resolved fetching my SoFaI to swing for the win)

I run SoFaF as gaining tempo while playing disruptive cards and attacking their in hand is the best way for us to combat combo, the protection from green is relevant against elves and the black against Marit Lage.

BSK because it's a resilient threat (notice a theme?) life gain and makes people swords to plowshares your SFM when you know you'll be hard casting your BSK in a few turns anyway.

So yea, I'm a huge advocate of her if you haven't noticed...

[Echelon]

SFM sucks balls vs. anything running discard/Cabal Therapy though. If only I had a buck for every time I pulled that trick, lol.

For some reason noone ever sees it coming. Silly people.

[rubblekill]

@Bob,

You're thinking about troll ascetic in the wrong way. Statistically speaking you get Thrun off of a Greensun zenith more than you naturally cast him and we have therapies to push through counter spells, so the fact that Thrun is uncounterable is rarely relevant. So in the end Ascetic is just a cheaper Thrun. If you don't run equipment then Thrun being a bigger clock is relevant, but they both carry swords in the same manner. So if Ascetic is a cheaper Thrun (and is a resilient threat at the three drop (unlike knight etc)) then you can cut Thrun and then play siege rhino as your 4 drop beater for the life gain and trample.

Thrun doesn't make Ascetic unnecessary, Ascetic can make Thrun unecessary :P

I tried glissa awhile ago, and she just didn't fit the bill cause the deck is designed to blank their removal or make it irrelevant and glissa just dies to all the removal they have stranded in their hand. And You can fetch your destroyed equipments with Ewit :)

@rubble, I'm a man of consistency. If I'm playing Stoneforge mystic I'm building my deck around her and I'm playing 4. That's 8 creatures I'm happy to sac my turn 1 therapy to on turn 2.
That's 8 creatures that trade favourably with nearly all removal spells (only vet with a STP is a sad panda)
That's 8 creatures that transition me to the mid-late game (SFM is a great speed bump to keep your opponent occupied)

SFM mystic is also a green sun zenith of sorts, fitting in the curve at 2, 5, and 7 while fetching disruption, removal, card draw, life gain or a resilient threat.

Finally I don't like having a deck that can be stuck on 2-3 mana and not be doing anything because I didn't draw a therapy or a vet. SFM gives you a great way of mitigating that while still being a great card to top deck turn 29.

Regarding what equipment to run, when I run 4 SFM I run 3 equipment always. We don't have brainstorm to shuffle them back. I don't run Jitte cause it interferes with our Deeds and SoFaI is removal anyway. It's not like we are short of ways of dealing with small creatures..

It's important as well that the equipment isn't dead against combo because you're dedicating a lot of cards in your deck to SFM (that said the other cards you would have played instead would likely be just as useful against combo and SFM is cheaper and sacs to therapy and diabolic intent while fetching something at least slightly relevant)

I run SoFaI for the card advantage, removal and the pressure (I just raced a turn 2 reanimated Iona set on white through two force of will because my second diabolic intent resolved fetching my SoFaI to swing for the win)

I run SoFaF as gaining tempo while playing disruptive cards and attacking their in hand is the best way for us to combat combo, the protection from green is relevant against elves and the black against Marit Lage.

BSK because it's a resilient threat (notice a theme?) life gain and makes people swords to plowshares your SFM when you know you'll be hard casting your BSK in a few turns anyway.

So yea, I'm a huge advocate of her if you haven't noticed...

Thank you for explaining your decision making and your choices, your response is very well thought. I'm kinda new to sfm, I'm trying her because all the people here have some kind of love affair with her. I couldn't agree more on the resiliency of the creature base, and the capabilities of baby troll. I'll try sofi instead of jitte, because as you said we have plenty of options for removal.
I'm kind of skeptical about sofaf because I don't think I'll be able to make space in the deck, although it is nice against combo and goyfs

[Jain_Mor]

SFM sucks balls vs. anything running discard/Cabal Therapy though. If only I had a buck for every time I pulled that trick, lol.

For some reason noone ever sees it coming. Silly people.

Haha isn't this the truth!

But against us, it isn't that big of a deal. We still have the mystic left over to use for what ever purpose we see fit, we are the only deck that can fetch back equipments with ewit (maverick?) and one of the few decks that can regurarly cast SFM and her equipment in the same turn :)

Finally the decks that run therapy, storm (don't care about the equipment) pyro delver (can be a pain but at least mystic speed bumps pyro and the tokens while we get removal) and the mirror (lol you're already having fun here)

[Echelon]

The odd thing here being that I'd be on Manaless Dredge and I'd have the Therapies right there in my graveyard, for everyone to see.

I'm glad you're seeing SFMs applicability with Diabolic Intent (all though no list runs more than 1 copy of it, you bunch of crazies) but I'm still not too fond of SFM. In and of itself it doesn't really pose a threat to anyone or cleans up graveyards like certain other 1 and 2-drops.

So... The invitational is tomorrow. I am running a Starved Rusalka. Let's do this shit.

Wish me luck!

I'll let you guys know how it went.

[Ralf]

So... The invitational is tomorrow. I am running a Starved Rusalka. Let's do this shit.

Wish me luck!

I'll let you guys know how it went.

Just kick ass...will you !?!

[Echelon]

Just kick ass...will you !?!

I was planning on nothing less and will not settle for anything less than total domination. Also, thank you for the sideboarding advice. Yours was very helpful :smile:.

[Jain_Mor]

@Echelon, I run two intents and two phyrexian towers! Everyone else is the crazies :)

I still run Scooze but yes, I don't like shaman so much.

This thread is so active, it's great.

And yes, may all your therapies hit and your gsuns resolve :)

[Nargoron]

I tried glissa awhile ago, and she just didn't fit the bill cause the deck is designed to blank their removal or make it irrelevant and glissa just dies to all the removal they have stranded in their hand. And You can fetch your destroyed equipments with Ewit :)

I was thinking about her.. if i wanna play with her, i will probably cut some deed for Engineered Explosives, then u can save somehow destroyed top and discarded/destroyed equipments
But still, idk ... i dont think she worth it


Finally I don't like having a deck that can be stuck on 2-3 mana and not be doing anything because I didn't draw a therapy or a vet

yep, this is exactly the reason, why i pick STF... especialy when banned dig made space for stifle

And about swords..
In maverick i was running 1x Sword of Light and shadow
His ability sucks... maybe against burn or RU delver. But in some MU give you creature cards
AND main reason i was playing this sword was B/W protection. In Nic Fit your important creatures are bolt/decay proof, but for example rhino... still eats a swords...
For example Gaddock with protection againts White isnt bad in miracle MU

G/B protection is much worst in my oppinion and you start swinging with sword too late to be powerful against some combo decks and in late game when players playing top deck its useless too..
On the other hand can help protect your bombs against FoW

[Bobmans]

I was thinking about her.. if i wanna play with her

Oh, i know that feeling.



This thread is so active, it's great.


Yes it is.


“You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche


This stuck into my head and i always think about it when i'm building anotger list or writing a comment. This deck van go so many ways that sometimes i glfeel my head is going to explode. The problem i have is that i can never be set on a 75 and keep playing that for a while.

[Jain_Mor]

@Nagoron, I did run SoLaS once upon a time but you don't have to worry about STP so much when your main threats have hexproof :P the situation you described (teeg against miracles) is basically the only thing going for it, and for they you can use sylvan safekeeper instead (who is cheaper and decent against combo who use chain vapor etc)
Like you said, the abilities on SoLaS do suck, so I changed it for SoFaF and have been very impressed.
You can't underestimate doubling your mana each turn.

And it isn't an early game threat against combo it's instead a great mid to late game finisher. It has pseudo haste, costs 0 mana and makes them discard every turn, i.e. limits their resources and stops them from drawing out from under our initial barrage of discard and hate effects.

Against everyone else the protections are relevant, it stops people from sand bagging threats in their hands making sure our deeds have maximum affect, and like you said prevents counter magic stopping us from finishing the game :)

[Nargoron]

@Nagoron, I did run SoLaS once upon a time but you don't have to worry about STP so much when your main threats have hexproof :P the situation you described (teeg against miracles) is basically the only thing going for it, and for they you can use sylvan safekeeper instead (who is cheaper and decent against combo who use chain vapor etc)
Like you said, the abilities on SoLaS do suck, so I changed it for SoFaF and have been very impressed.
You can't underestimate doubling your mana each turn.

And it isn't an early game threat against combo it's instead a great mid to late game finisher. It has pseudo haste, costs 0 mana and makes them discard every turn, i.e. limits their resources and stops them from drawing out from under our initial barrage of discard and hate effects.

Against everyone else the protections are relevant, it stops people from sand bagging threats in their hands making sure our deeds have maximum affect, and like you said prevents counter magic stopping us from finishing the game :)

WHen i tried Sword of Feast and Famine i was disapointed when opponent had empty hand and i untap lands which i dont need...
But maybe that empty just mean dont be afraid and land your bombs
But untapping have effect only in small window when u are attacking with sword, but still have some cards in hand... maybe with sylvan library it can be crazy O:-)
Ill give a try ;)

Btw i have to played against Merfolks... some funny moments:
g1:
t2:i play StoneforgeM and looking for SoFaI, he response in his turn playing Phantasmal Image, copy mystiq and pull of his jitte..
t3:I attack with Mystiq, he block with his mystiq - didnt notic that he is white, idk why i missed that... he swing with his jitte...
t4: GSZ for Quasaly and kick his Jitte... scooped

g2: similar situation, but more efective sweep his army of catchers with jitte by one Deed... after deed i casted Carpet of Flowers aaand that was the end

[rubblekill]

@Jain and @Bob, today I've tried SFM (SoFaI/BSK). I have to say that I'm impressed so far, the early 2 mana threat is relevant because now we have a proactive way of spending our mana in the early turns; loving SoFaI over Jitte because pro blue adds yet another layer of resiliency that is always needed (especially against an active JTMS). I haven't had the time to test a lot against Miracles, but I have to say that I definitely underestimated what SFM can do. If I'll decide to migrate towards this build I'll definitely want to replace one of the deeds with a deluge (the nonbo between deed and equipments has come up a couple times in today's limited testing).
I'm not playing Diabolic Intents simply because I cannot find space in the 61; Truths have been removed in this build because 3x SDT are a must for me. Currently playing this removal package: 2xPtE 3xDeeds 3xDecays 1xPulse (1xCouncil's Judgement in the sb). I do really like it and this makes things really difficult for me when I try to see if I can cut anything to make space for something else (Truths?). I'll keep playing and reading your ideas.
I love the fact that this thread is so active, it's a pleasure to catch up with the read after a day of hard work. Keep it up!

[uncletiggy]

I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.

[Bobmans]

I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.

I agree with that you should limit the total nr of equip/sfm. After all we are a bag full of trick and the morr it becomes "streamlined" the less it is true to itself.

I'd personally never go lower then 3 Deeds. That card is what differs itself of other decks. That card is often the game breaker against fair/creature.dec
Everyone is always very afraid to break their own stuff with it, but you should A. Never overextend your boardpresence, B think ahead to reduce colleteral damage and C. Know that launching Deed will be in your benefit. I'd rather add Toxic Deluge to the board.
Also because we run E.Witness, Meren and asun Titan we should be alright. Lastly, Batterskull is great next to Deeds.
That removal package from Rubblekill looks perfect. 2 pte/stp, 3Decay/Deed, 1Pulse/Vindicate.

[Meyer]

@Jain and @Bob, today I've tried SFM (SoFaI/BSK). I have to say that I'm impressed so far, the early 2 mana threat is relevant because now we have a proactive way of spending our mana in the early turns; loving SoFaI over Jitte because pro blue adds yet another layer of resiliency that is always needed (especially against an active JTMS). I haven't had the time to test a lot against Miracles, but I have to say that I definitely underestimated what SFM can do. If I'll decide to migrate towards this build I'll definitely want to replace one of the deeds with a deluge (the nonbo between deed and equipments has come up a couple times in today's limited testing).
I'm not playing Diabolic Intents simply because I cannot find space in the 61; Truths have been removed in this build because 3x SDT are a must for me. Currently playing this removal package: 2xPtE 3xDeeds 3xDecays 1xPulse (1xCouncil's Judgement in the sb). I do really like it and this makes things really difficult for me when I try to see if I can cut anything to make space for something else (Truths?). I'll keep playing and reading your ideas.
I love the fact that this thread is so active, it's a pleasure to catch up with the read after a day of hard work. Keep it up!


Totally agree on this, especially on that last part!

Over the last couple of pages, it was (as an advocate of SFM) nice to see that the majority(?) of Junk Fit players around here finally dignify our little Kor girl. That said, I jumped on the SoFaI over Jitte maindeck train. No chance to test it yet, but I see the advantages.

Second, there was the discussion of finding the right numbers for the Deathrite/Veteran mix. I guess there is no right number, depending on list. But I feel quite confident with 4 Veteran Explorer (come on, we really want that signature Nic Fit opener with Therapy) and 2 Deathrite Shaman.

Another discussion a while back was about siding out Veterans vs. Death n' Taxes G2&G3. I play this matchup at least once a week, and he plays a really "tax-intensive" list with 4 Wasteland, 4 Thalia next to some number of Vryn Wingmare, and 4 Ports. Even if we give him lands to compensate Wasteland or to activate his Ports, we can get out of "range" with multiple Explorers (e.g. beeing cut off a colour by Ports) and overall, we play the bigger spells here. Plus sometimes we need to speed out a Deed with the help of Veteran Explorers to stop them killing us: Against a deck with lots of evasive creatures (Mother of Runes, Flickerwisp, Mindcensor, Wingmare) it really can be crucial if you stabilize at 10 life or at 4 life. Games can be over quickly. But we have lifegain though.

A funny sidenote of our G1 yesterday: I mull to 5 with a 5-land-hand, first draw beeing a Swamp. His beginning was an usual sequence of Vial, Mother of Runes, Thalia and Serra Avenger. He realized my draw was very bad and wanted to close the game as quick as possible. Then I draw Deed while he had not found his Revoker in time. He had a Wingmare back in hand which put me from 5 to 1 life, but then my topdecks where: Swords, Zenith, Zenith, Zenith. He just topdecked lands. Rage-scooped after second Rhino.

Today I'm playtesting against Death n' Taxes, Dragon Stompy, Grixis Pyro, and maybe Goblins/Fish/MUD/High Tide. I'll post if there is something interesting to discuss.

Finally, I can not hide my joy about the activity on this thread. So glad we have this platform to discuss this wondeful but often debatable deck.

[rubblekill]

I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.

I agree that 4 sfm might be overkill, but a single tutor for our equipments seems just random in my opinion. I love rhino as much as you, but it's not like we don't have bodies to carry sfm's treats: it's the opposite, infact one could argue that resilient creatures may very well be even better that rhino to equip. Even troll ascetic is better in that regard imho. After I replaced rhinos with sfm I have added a tusk in order to still have a tutorable way of gaining life (plus tusk is a more resilient choice due to his 3/3 friend). As I have said I'm an advocate of rhino but I honestly don't know if I really want 3 of them in the sfm build (I cut them all to be honest, I might be wrong here but that's my starting point).

[Nargoron]

I agree that 4 sfm might be overkill, but a single tutor for our equipments seems just random in my opinion. I love rhino as much as you, but it's not like we don't have bodies to carry sfm's treats: it's the opposite, infact one could argue that resilient creatures may very well be even better that rhino to equip. Even troll ascetic is better in that regard imho. After I replaced rhinos with sfm I have added a tusk in order to still have a tutorable way of gaining life (plus tusk is a more resilient choice due to his 3/3 friend). As I have said I'm an advocate of rhino but I honestly don't know if I really want 3 of them in the sfm build (I cut them all to be honest, I might be wrong here but that's my starting point).

Rhino and mystic are good couple...
Dont forget that troll or Thragtusk dont have trample and that could be an issue if you are running swords. Its pretty enoying when some dump 1/1 spacedudy block you.. with rhino its much more harder.
On the other hand Terminus on your trampling rhino... and u r doomed. In this situation Thragtusk have advantage, but iam afraid that is just one MU, in others rhino is just better.
There where some note about lingering souls, i rly like that card. With mystic flying dudes are helpful, but in my oppinion it doesnt fit in nicfit. Or should fit.. cose the fun of nic fit is in his bombs and not in his 1/1 tokens which are nonbo with his sweepers.
But still when u r running Mystic, there will be often situation when your board is empty and you desperatly need some body to carry your equip (Iam not talking about Batterskull now)...

There was some builds with Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a token generator/buffer.
pros:
Bolt proof
Decay proof => she is pretty much in save against spells (yea yea vindicate, pulse... )
helpfull buffing- even dryad without trample can fly over army of pyromancers army and hit with sword, draw a card and kill pyromancer....
token generator

cons:
example: emty board, you pla elspeth, get 1/1 token... next turn pump your token to 4/4 and then any single removal speal can ruin her 2 turn attempts
Next card when she is defenseless is delver or worst Clique casted the end of your turn. There is no way to defend her against some pesky flyers. Soo even miracles can easy handle with your planeswalker, and to be honest i wanna play planeswalker mainly as my ace against miracles.
ulti is often pretty useless
Mana cost... WW could be and will be an issue...

Is she worth it? Isnt there better option for this kind of job?

For example
Garruk, Primal Hunter appear often in nic fit lists...
3x G again could be an issue...
but when Elspeh gives you second turn attacking 4/4, Garruk have 2x 3/3 beast, and 6 is more then 4... ( and 5 mana cost is more then 4 i know.. )
But again, flyers take him down without problem.. clean and quick if you dont have prepared decay (dont wanna deed when u are generating tokens)
On the other hand his drawing ability is amazing! but -3 cost can be a problem :(
And on the end, his ulty has ultimate effect... :D, unfortunaly can be trolled with terminus as well...


Ob Nixilis Reignited - i dont like his art, i dont like his drawing of random card-i wanna something more then draw a card for 5 mana, i dont like his ulty, his second ability could be helpful... but thats all and its cost is not low.
No token generator and random card rly dont provide a body for swords

Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - his drawing mechanism is much better then Nixilis... but when you cant find any creature... dam it
His ulty i RLY dont like it... just make game much longer, i wanna kill with ulty not make the game longer
Buff 3x +1/+1 is nice - 4/4 veteran? why not xD
But he has no way how to protect him self, only if you have some creatures... not just flyers, but all creatures. - no token generating, no removal utility


Nissa, Worldwaker < Garruk....

Sorin, Solemn Visitor - i didnt heard about this guy much...
decay proof, bolt proof... ok next
1. utility - lifelink can be sometimes helpful... but you need some guy on the board when u r casting Sorin
2. utility - its gonna be more interesting, finally he can defend him self against flyers... kill clique, kill delver!... but -2 counters :(
ulti: iam afraid its pretty useless, against some sneak attack its too slow, reanimation the same.. and in other MU you rly dont want his ulty
But possibility of generating FEW 2/2flayers, which can be pumped for +1/0 and lifeling looks interesting for me
what is your suggestion?

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
next version of sorin
1. utility: generating 1/1 lifelink dudes is better then generating 1/1 dudes
2. utility: aaand this is not the best... :( but cant be tricked like +3/+3 sorcery buff of elspeth
3. utility: posibility of killing Jace? or just killing 3 creatures isnt the worst, on the other hand, if opponnt has 3 creatures, you probably not gonna cast his ulty cose of lack of counters xD

Garruk Relentless
6 utilities
eats a bolts all the day
His removable makes him just 4mana removal spell often..
idk, i can imagine him in some situation where he is the boss, but i can imagine situation where he sucks so hard...

Vraska the Unseen and Lili they are not for junk build i guess....

Your suggestions?
Iam wrong in meaning about some of mentioned planeswalker? Or did i left some interesting guy for us unnoticed?

[rubblekill]

Rhino and mystic are good couple...
Dont forget that troll or Thragtusk dont have trample and that could be an issue if you are running swords. Its pretty enoying when some dump 1/1 spacedudy block you.. with rhino its much more harder.
On the other hand Terminus on your trampling rhino... and u r doomed. In this situation Thragtusk have advantage, but iam afraid that is just one MU, in others rhino is just better.
There where some note about lingering souls, i rly like that card. With mystic flying dudes are helpful, but in my oppinion it doesnt fit in nicfit. Or should fit.. cose the fun of nic fit is in his bombs and not in his 1/1 tokens which are nonbo with his sweepers.
But still when u r running Mystic, there will be often situation when your board is empty and you desperatly need some body to carry your equip (Iam not talking about Batterskull now)...

There was some builds with Elspeth, Knight-Errant as a token generator/buffer.
pros:
Bolt proof
Decay proof => she is pretty much in save against spells (yea yea vindicate, pulse... )
helpfull buffing- even dryad without trample can fly over army of pyromancers army and hit with sword, draw a card and kill pyromancer....
token generator

cons:
example: emty board, you pla elspeth, get 1/1 token... next turn pump your token to 4/4 and then any single removal speal can ruin her 2 turn attempts
Next card when she is defenseless is delver or worst Clique casted the end of your turn. There is no way to defend her against some pesky flyers. Soo even miracles can easy handle with your planeswalker, and to be honest i wanna play planeswalker mainly as my ace against miracles.
ulti is often pretty useless
Mana cost... WW could be and will be an issue...

Is she worth it? Isnt there better option for this kind of job?

For example
Garruk, Primal Hunter appear often in nic fit lists...
3x G again could be an issue...
but when Elspeh gives you second turn attacking 4/4, Garruk have 2x 3/3 beast, and 6 is more then 4... ( and 5 mana cost is more then 4 i know.. )
But again, flyers take him down without problem.. clean and quick if you dont have prepared decay (dont wanna deed when u are generating tokens)
On the other hand his drawing ability is amazing! but -3 cost can be a problem :(
And on the end, his ulty has ultimate effect... :D, unfortunaly can be trolled with terminus as well...


Ob Nixilis Reignited - i dont like his art, i dont like his drawing of random card-i wanna something more then draw a card for 5 mana, i dont like his ulty, his second ability could be helpful... but thats all and its cost is not low.

Ajani, Mentor of Heroes - his drawing mechanism is much better then Nixilis... but when you cant find any creature... dam it
His ulty i RLY dont like it... just make game much longer, i wanna kill with ulty not make the game longer
Buff 3x +1/+1 is nice - 4/4 veteran? why not xD
But he has no way how to protect him self, only if you have some creatures... not just flyers, but all creatures. - no token generating, no removal utility


Nissa, Worldwaker < Garruk....

Sorin, Solemn Visitor - i didnt heard about this guy much...
decay proof, bolt proof... ok next
1. utility - lifelink can be sometimes helpful... but you need some guy on the board when u r casting Sorin
2. utility - its gonna be more interesting, finally he can defend him self against flyers... kill clique, kill delver!... but -2 counters :(
ulti: iam afraid its pretty useless, against some sneak attack its too slow, reanimation the same.. and in other MU you rly dont want his ulty
But possibility of generating FEW 2/2flayers, which can be pumped for +1/0 and lifeling looks interesting for me
what is your suggestion?

Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
next version of sorin
1. utility: generating 1/1 lifelink dudes is better then generating 1/1 dudes
2. utility: aaand this is not the best... :( but cant be tricked like +3/+3 sorcery buff of elspeth
3. utility: posibility of killing Jace? or just killing 3 creatures isnt the worst, on the other hand, if opponnt has 3 creatures, you probably not gonna cast his ulty cose of lack of counters xD

Garruk Relentless
6 utilities
eats a bolts all the day
His removable makes him just 4mana removal spell often..
idk, i can imagine him in some situation where he is the boss, but i can imagine situation where he sucks so hard...

Vraska the Unseen and Lili they are not for junk build i guess....

Your suggestions?
Iam wrong in meaning about some of mentioned planeswalker? Or did i left some interesting guy for us unnoticed?

I have elspeth ke e 5 Cmc garruk and they are great, especially with equipments

[Echelon]

The invitational is over! And I won't spoil how it went. Here goes the report:

Eight finals, vs some BG rock/prison homebrew.
Game 1: I start off well and get a Meren on the board pretty early. After sending a Dryad Arbor and a Scavenging Ooze straight to their doom into a Knight of the Reliquary[cards] I eat all his lands with my Ooze. When he tries to force pressure with [cards]Titania, Protector of Argoth I PtE it during my main phase and answer the token he makes with a Pernicious Deed for X = 0. After that, he dies to assorted beats.

Game 2: I mulligan to 5 and just get nowhere.

Game 3: Was kinda close. It saw my opponent Toxic Deluge for 5 life to get rid of a Rhino. Eventually I topdeck a Fierce Empath to fetch up a Dragonlord Dromoka after which I topdeck the last land needed to cast the big guy. He dies 2 turns later. Made it to top 8!

Quarter finals, vs BUG Delver. Hello there, delicious prey!
Game 1: I know he plays blue and start off on the play with a blind Cabal Therapy on Brainstorm. Hit! Then my opponent fucks me over on a Veteran Explorer trigger when I get caught up in casting and flashbacking Cabal Therapies (I thought it apparent I'd be shortcutting). In turn I fuck him over when he blindly reveals a FoW to flip his Delver with "Wait a sec, I can respond to that trigger. PtE your Delver! Somewhat starved on mana, I GSZ for Ooze just to fuck with his DRS (I was seriously annoyed). Eventually it grows to 6/6, blanks his DRS and stomps him down like a boss. I like playing nice and friendly and seriously hate opponents that try to forcefully get you to skip over triggers. Do this to me and you're sure to get butthurt. Seriously.

Game 2: I keep the slowest hand ever, dropping land after land and offering my face as a cushion to a Tarmogoyf. First I drop a Rhino, which catches the first FoW. Then I drop Sigarda, which also catches a FoW. I die.

Game 3: I have a nice hand and start off with what makes this deck so good. Swamp, Cabal Therapy, name Force of Will. Miss. That's OK, honey badger doesn't care. Turn 2: Fetch, Forest, Veteran Explorer, flashback Therapy, discard his last creature and lol @his FoW w/o a blue card. The turn after that I drop a Siege Rhino and proceed to smash face. He drops a Tarmogoyf, I PtE it and swing for 4. He proceeds to drop another Tarmogoyf after which I topdeck another Rhino. I don't swing b/c both Tarmo & Rhino are 4/5. I play a Verdant Catacombs and pass the turn. On his turn he plays a Lilliana and activates it. In response, I fetch a Dryad Arbor, sacrifice that and swing for the win. Semi finals, here I come!

Semi-finals: Infect. Fuck. Out of all possible MUs (another BUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade and Infect) this was the only one I really didn't want to face. Props to my opponent though, it was a wonderfully kind guy. Honestly a treat to play against!Dryad
Game 1: I die turn 3 to a big fucking Blinkmoth. I believe I got out Sigarda and Meren + Eternal Witness and managed cast PtE, recur Sigarda and Eternal Witness Pte, only to get slapped in the face with a 20-something Blinkmoth. He had Invigorate, Berserk (which got him to lethal) and the Vines of Vastwood to blank my PtE.

Game 2: I actually manage to stall his stuff with 2 Cabal Therapy into Pernicious Deed but fuck it up when I tap out for Golgari Charm and PtE (for which he has Vines of Vastwood again). He kills me on the backswing w/ a Become Immense and a kick Vines of Vastwood. Note to self: THINK!

Oh well. I was the only non-blue deck to make it to T4, so that's something. I get 70 euros in store credit for my effort and manage to trade it and some leftover cards for a Bayou, a Savannah and a Scrubland. B/c up until now I've only been using shock duals (and rather succesfully, I might add). So... End of the day I'm very happy with the result I've finally completed my deck!

Decklist was the same as 2 weeks ago, minus a Deed for a Dryad Militant (there were 3 Storm players, but I didn't face any) and a DRS for Starved Rusalka. I wasn't unhappy to see it, but haven't gotten the engine going yet either. I'll be keeping it in for some more testing. The 3rd Deed is getting back in though!

[Bobmans]

Good result. How many rounds did you play before t8?
Pity about that BUG player. Showing off the power of Scooze we sometimes tend to forget.

Tomorow im going to a tournament at a LGS. Not sure if i want to bring Jund- or Junk NicFit (latest 0 Rhino list) or go with an all in Welder MUD list..

[rubblekill]

Good result. How many rounds did you play before t8?
Pity about that BUG player. Showing off the power of Scooze we sometimes tend to forget.

Tomorow im going to a tournament at a LGS. Not sure if i want to bring Jund- or Junk NicFit (latest 0 Rhino list) or go with an all in Welder MUD list..

Do a good deed (no pun intended) and play some Junk Fit!

[Bobmans]

Do a good deed (no pun intended) and play some Junk Fit!
Doing the deed ;-) So yes, sir.
Final list. Changes, got Courser over KotR. I have this feeling that Courser works better in the deck on overall. During testing i had a bit of trouble getting KotR bigger without messing with the manabase. Plus i needed to eat lands for DRS.
Liliana on the board. I really want to play her against combo and big dudes decks.

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Sun Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
Sb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Golgari charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle

[Nargoron]

1 Sun Titan
[/cards]
Why you play sun titan?
I dont like him too much, in my oppinion too much condition to work well... can u explain this pick?
I think grave is just ... less depended and faster killer

[Echelon]

Good result. How many rounds did you play before t8?
Pity about that BUG player. Showing off the power of Scooze we sometimes tend to forget.

Tomorow im going to a tournament at a LGS. Not sure if i want to bring Jund- or Junk NicFit (latest 0 Rhino list) or go with an all in Welder MUD list..

The invitational was just a top 16, single elimination. There were no rounds before that :smile:.

@Nargoron: Sun Titan plays well with Pernicious Deed :wink:.

[Bobmans]

Why you play sun titan?


Sun Titan indeed works well with Deeds, but also with E.Witness, DRS, SFM (even just to shuffle). And what about Liliana, Qasali or Gaddock Teek from the board. That card provides control, in such a way that it will take complete control of the game. That's how i like to play NicFit, forcing complete control over the board, rather then squeezing thru damage. Plus that 6/6 Vigilance is already powerful on it's own. Only thing is i have no way to fetch it, but games that go long it will eventually show up. And when it does...
Also i am not that afraid of gravehate because that is something you can either combat or ignore as a whole depending on how the gravehate is integrated in the opposing deck.

[rubblekill]

Sun Titan indeed works well with Deeds, but also with E.Witness, DRS, SFM (even just to shuffle). And what about Liliana, Qasali or Gaddock Teek from the board. That card provides control, in such a way that it will take complete control of the game. That's how i like to play NicFit, forcing complete control over the board, rather then squeezing thru damage. Plus that 6/6 Vigilance is already powerful on it's own. Only thing is i have no way to fetch it, but games that go long it will eventually show up. And when it does...
Also i am not that afraid of gravehate because that is something you can either combat or ignore as a whole depending on how the gravehate is integrated in the opposing deck.

My only problem is that he is definitely too slow and against stp.dec (->miracles) he isn't really useful because they exile bounce or terminus our creatures, sometimes they even board in rip. That's the reason meren is removed in the sb games against decks with stp. Plus he can't be gsz and doesn't defend himself. Sunny T seems good against GBx decks instead, it could very well be a meta choice imo: if the meta is dominated by control I'd play a walker instead of him, otherwise he can be a powerful top of the mana curve vs fair decks

[Bobmans]

My only problem is that he is definitely too slow and against stp.dec (->miracles) he isn't really useful because they exile bounce or terminus our creatures, sometimes they even board in rip. That's the reason meren is removed in the sb games against decks with stp. Plus he can't be gsz and doesn't defend himself. Sunny T seems good against GBx decks instead, it could very well be a meta choice imo: if the meta is dominated by control I'd play a walker instead of him, otherwise he can be a powerful top of the mana curve vs fair decks

Against StP.dec or Miracles i have Sigarda, Thrun and Thragtusk. Meren is a less solid choice against those indeed, aswell as S.Titan. But after boarding we get some juice in return. Gaddock Teeg, Liliana, Qasali, Carpet, Surgical Extraction are fine cards to play instead. Also i am expecting Elves, Infect and Shardless so there it will hold a lot more value. And the array of decks vary to much to make a solid prediction. We have various tools to combat most of the field with some options stronger then others. Having that said, i prefer the utility and flexibility provided at the cost of not being green over the dumbness/attack power of DLD or Grave Titan (which is also not green).

[Nargoron]

I can imagine, how i am able to deed board every turn with mighty titan...
On the other hand, i can imagine, how i am desperatly searching in grave something useful...
Like witness, you have to play something what you need before... and this is an condition
DtS or Ooze can make your titan just overpriced 6/6 dude...
and iam facing often gravehate cards with nic fit
condition, condition...
And this is the reason why iam not fun of sun titan... :(
Maybe with some grave support like Satyr Wayfinder?

[sdematt]

Pimpin' ain't easy, boys.

Merry Christmas, you filthy Veteran Exploring-playin' peeps.

http://i.imgur.com/fSmUEkg.jpg

-Matt

[rubblekill]

Pimpin' ain't easy, boys.

Merry Christmas, you filthy Veteran Exploring-playin' peeps.

-Matt

I can't deny that I laughed, audibly.

Accordingly to our philosophy of dropping bombs on the field, you have hung that serious bomb on that mafakin' tree. Sometimes a rhino isn't classy enough.

Merry Christmas to you, fellow jank enthusiast, we all appreciate you for your work here.

-Francis

[Jain_Mor]

I can say for a fact 4 stoneforge is wrong in nicfit. You will find yourself playing a subpar esper deathblade. The number of equipment should be greater then or equal to the number of stoneforge's. Equipment is there to support rhino not replace it. Once you've gone down to one rhino and up to four stoneforges you better be replacing some number of zeniths for intents and some number of deeds for deluges. For reference ive been on one stoneforge a jitte and a sofi for some time and wouldn't change that package. I have regretfully had to cut the fourth rhino to make room for a pair of truths.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Qhax7FywZMI/UfQCUwUU-CI/AAAAAAAAAwI/K7BG_kkdQ8g/s1600/big+lebowski.jpg

@Matt, I'm currently really sad because I'm missing the joke. I can't see a magic card or anything that resembles a magic reference on that tree. Can some one be a team player and tell me what I'm missing! Or is it just a happy tree?

@Echelon, congrats, sounds like good times were had :)

@Everyone, happy holidays! I've ordered myself some Alpha Tsunamis and some Apac / Euro basic lands, I hope Santa is equally or more generous to the rest of ya!

[rubblekill]

@Matt, I'm currently really sad because I'm missing the joke. I can't see a magic card or anything that resembles a magic reference on that tree. Can some one be a team player and tell me what I'm missing! Or is it just a happy tree?

@Echelon, congrats, sounds like good times were had :)

@Everyone, happy holidays! I've ordered myself some Alpha Tsunamis and some Apac / Euro basic lands, I hope Santa is equally or more generous to the rest of ya!

Have you not seen the big red PORSCHE ball hung on that goddamn tree?!? The man is clearly living the dream of being a pimp Magic: The Gathering player, I'm sure there is some piece of power inside the damn ball :)

[uncletiggy]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Qhax7FywZMI/UfQCUwUU-CI/AAAAAAAAAwI/K7BG_kkdQ8g/s1600/big+lebowski.jpg

@Matt, I'm currently really sad because I'm missing the joke. I can't see a magic card or anything that resembles a magic reference on that tree. Can some one be a team player and tell me what I'm missing! Or is it just a happy tree?

@Echelon, congrats, sounds like good times were had :)

@Everyone, happy holidays! I've ordered myself some Alpha Tsunamis and some Apac / Euro basic lands, I hope Santa is equally or more generous to the rest of ya!


Some offense taken... I've only been on the stoneforge package for over a year. I'll keep my experience and tech to myself and let the modern crossover players figure it out for themselves... it seems to take a long time for people to get on board with my contributions like pte and storm breath.

I will say this tho if I were to take the deck down a 4 stoneforge route id be looking at 2 skull 1 jitte 1 sofi and a nahiri, with more intents then zeniths.

[Jain_Mor]

Some offense taken... I've only been on the stoneforge package for over a year. I'll keep my experience and tech to myself and let the modern crossover players figure it out for themselves... it seems to take a long time for people to get on board with my contributions like pte and storm breath.

Haha, my apologies, I didn't realised you were God's gift to Nic Fit.
And no offense was taken (why do people assume someone is offended?), you just stated that something was fact, when it's an opinion. I disagree with that opinion, seems reasonable enough.

And for what it's worth, I've also been playing SFM in Nic Fit for over a year... So I don't know Uncletiggy, I guess we shall both have to stop educating the masses of unappreciative plebs crossing over from modern, or something.


@rubblekill, ooohhhhhhh I seeeeeeee, I was looking for a Russian Cabal Therapy hanging somewhere XD

Edit for Uncletiggys edit: I disagree, I run 4 gsuns and would never run less, they find your vets and your sword carriers. I also run 1-2 diabolic intents and wouldn't run more than 2 anyways. One Batterskull is enough and I've never really found a Nahiri to be good enough for the 5 mana investment, maybe out of the sideboard though in anticipation for their artifact removal in grinder matchups.

[uncletiggy]

Never said I was gods gift to anything its just that thrun is the only form of trolling I appreciate...

[Jain_Mor]

Never said I was gods gift to anything its just that thrun is the only form of trolling I appreciate...

You should try Troll Ascetic, he's a cheaper date ;)

[uncletiggy]

Thrun has a pimp cane tho he's buying ;)

[Meyer]

First things first, congrats to Echelon for making Top4.

So, as I said I played against various decks in a non-tournement environment 2 days ago. Tried a list similar to the one that Nargoron posted on p.141, but with the following changes:

- 1 Siege Rhino
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Courser of Kruphix
- 1 Toxic Deluge
- 1 Karakas
- 1 Phyrexian Tower

+ 1 Vraska (pet card, but serious.. sometimes this card is bonkers)
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
+ 1 Deed
+ 2 Painful Truths
+ 1 Forest

Didn't take notes, but I just want to share some thoughts anyhow.

1. First match was against Mono Red Stompy. My opponent had not played a single game of mtg for about half a year and never faced Nic Fit before. As in many matchups, Pernicious Deed is key here. Swords were important too, especially on Hound of Griselbrand. Otherwise, they suck against my main enemy called Stormbreath Dragon. 4/4 flying haste protection from white is pretty effective against us.
G2 this Dragon solely puts me down to 7 life, and he was 1 mana short to make it monstrous to kill me next turn. I had Sigarda zenithed out the turn before and top decked.... Sword of Fire and Ice! Play, equip, attack for exact 7+2 damage. 2:0!
This beeing the first match with SoFaI main. Totally worth it.

2. The next 4 games were against Death n' Taxes. The fact that I saw his playset maindeck Revokers not more than 2 times says it all. Won all games, but I feel stabilizing/ finding the right removal the right time is often just luck dependant. Tops + shuffle and Painful Truths help here. Otherwise two of these games I was at 3 life without ever having the fear of loosing control at any time.
Sidenote: Thought about siding out Meren here, as he plays a set of Swords to Plowshares. But I wanted to test her in the different matchups and was rewarded, as she singlehandedly broke board symmetry one game when she wasn't handled for about 4 turns.

3. RUG Delver. I hate this matchup, even though its mostly positive. Lost 2:0. G1 a well timed Wasteland + a misplay of mine when not paying 2 mana for Spell Pierce on Cabal Therapy to grab his Stifle were game.
G2 his hand was kind of Stifle, BS, Goyf, Submerge, Submerge, Wasteland, Tropical. Felt unwinnable.

4. Against Goblins. G1 t1 blind Therapy hits 3(!) Goblin Matrons (pls don't ask why I name this one. What do you guys name in this matchup? Or just wait until Matron/Ringleader resolve? I think it is too late then...). He never came back from this.
G2 was a turn 3 or 4 kill. 3 Lackys were to fast to handle. Swords on one of this two Piledrivers were just a drop in the bucket. G3 I lead with some Vet/Therapy into Deed into Meren into another Deed I think. Won that match.

5. Against Grixis Pyro. All games were close. G3 I didn't kill his Tasigur with Vraskas -3 when I had the chance to. Maybe my SFM equiped with Jitte then could have raced his TNN. We will never now.

6. Last match was against the same guy that played the Stompy deck, this time he played MUD. Horrible matchup, lost 2:1. As you can imagine how the losses went, let's focus on G2: He had a fast start with Metalworker, but no Lightning Greaves. Anyway, I feared turn 3 Blightsteel Colossus, so I hold my Swords. He instead speeds out Steel Hellkite + Kuldotha Forgemaster, so my problems were everything but unsolved! My turn, I top decked Therapy, took his Wormcoil Engine he revealed with his Metalworker. Flashback with VetEx. took Grim Monolith I guess. Play Deed with white open for Swords. As much as I wanted to take out his Forgemaster while summoning sick, I had the feeling that this lonesome Deed would be my only chance winning this game (with the foolish plan of ramping with Meren+Veteran Explorer), so I had to prevent his Steel Hellkite from dealing combat damage.. Next turn he didn't draw the 3rd artifact to sac to his Forgemaster (thanks, Therapy!). So Deed for 5. The following couple of turns were back and forth, Wurmcoil meets Swords bringing him to 34life and so on, while I got Meren active and zenithed for Quasali Pridemage. At this point his only chances were All is Dust or Blightsteel i guess, but my clock was fast enough.
Nutshell: Meren, multiple Explorers into some kind of large enough Deeds, Pridemage „lock“ and a lot of luck were necessary to steal some games here.

Sry for wording/mistakes, english not beeing my native language and it's late around here in Europe. Merry Christmas to yah all!

[Nargoron]

First things first, congrats to Echelon for making Top4.
+ 1 Vraska (pet card, but serious.. sometimes this card is bonkers)
+ 1 Swords to Plowshares
+ 1 Deed
+ 2 Painful Truths
+ 1 Forest

Vraska: r u feel comfortable with her? Isnt better to pick some ... better token generator for your equipments?
and how often you manage to use her ulty?
Vraska is pretty interesting, but often her +1 utility is just useless :( and on planeswalker with 5 mana cost.... i need more
But i have never tested her... so just asking :)

Painful Truth i like that card.... but in games, very often i just draw some craps which i didnt need and just pay 3 life for nothing... Diabolic Intent look better for me, especialy when u drop phyrexial tower for third forest

deed vs deluge depend just on your meta :) and if u r facing MUDs, some stompy decks.. its wise choice


Andd in your report, you had rly bad luck against RUG :( its a pitty, cose Nic fit is delver killer.... nwm, congratulation for your result, i hope you had fun ...
and merry xmas :)



Meren, multiple Explorers into some kind of large enough Deeds, Pridemage „lock“ and a lot of luck were necessary to steal some games here.

yep, that is nesty, especialy when u r facing some stompy deck ... or MUD :)

[Bobmans]

Vraska: r u feel comfortable with her? Isnt better to pick some ... better token generator for your equipments?
and how often you manage to use her ulty?
Vraska is pretty interesting, but often her +1 utility is just useless :( and on planeswalker with 5 mana cost.... i need more
But i have never tested her... so just asking :)

Painful Truth i like that card.... but in games, very often i just draw some craps which i didnt need and just pay 3 life for nothing... Diabolic Intent look better for me, especialy when u drop phyrexial tower for third forest


Vraska is something else. For a while i have played her in my JUND list. If it weren't for Stormbreath Dragon I'd probably squeeze her in somewhere. That said, If you are looking for token generating Walker then look further. This one has a very different function. Often people find she is an overpriced Maelstrom Pulse or Vindicate, BUT i disagree strongly here. 5 CMC is a lot, but being BG(3) is quite easy to achieve with this deck. Now, the -3 function can be a real lifesaver and given that weren't for this ability she wouldn't have been interesting at all. Nonetheless, after destroying something (or not) she sticks around and becomes very scary.
The ultimate is in most cases a game winner, plus that you have time to set the conditions to push at least 1 token thru. An important aspect of this ultimate is that it dodges life total, which can be relevant in somewhat grindy games were you are not able to win fast enough thru life.
The +1 does not look impressive when looking at it, but knowing that her ultimate will win the game makes the choice your opponent is left with something he is gonna have to think about. Is he gonna sacrifice one of his creatures to kill her or keep her loyalty in check or is he gonna ignore it and try to race your life total? Also people are really trying to prevent her to get a second -3 activation and spend quite some resources dealing with her. Either way, this is gonna benefit you.

About P.Truths, i totally agree. For NicFit, quality over quantity any day.

Happy holidays..

[Meyer]

@ Nargoron: Vraska isn't meant to be a token producer. Therefor I prefer Elspeth KE, or even Garruk PH or Sorin.
As Bobmans stated out, Vraska is primarily useful because of her -3. Yes, Vindicate or Pulse are both more efficient and kind of stronger, too. But Vraska has the ability to stay on the board after she had impact on the game. So in most cases, she is at least a 1 for 1. Okay, 3gb is expensive for a trade like this, but if our board state is preferable while or after her appearence, she can easily become a 2 for 1 or even more. Combined with Deed this card is nuts: It buys time to get counters on her for multiple -3 activations or clears the board before the assassin tokens arrive. (to be fair, I won just once this way)
Nontheless I agree that her +1 ability isn't very strong. More often than not attacking me and not her is just better for my opponent anyway. Probably cut her in the near future, maybe for Intent or Deluge. I was brainstorming about these cards already, glad you guys mention exactly these two. I guess in my meta Toxic Deluge isn't necessary a sideboard card.

about Painful Truths: Actually I expulsed them about two weeks ago as I posted here. But I also wanted to give them a last shot.. and I was fairly excited about what this card did in the different matchups. In the end Bobmans could be right with his statement about quality over quantity. In this case I'll swap those with 2x Intent or Intent + Library.

[Tom4ik]

Diabolic Intent is also turned off in more situations than Truths. It requires either a situation where you have expendable tokens or the loss of a real card to grab another card. Truths allows you to gas up. If you draw 3 cards that dont matter you either got unlucky or you built a bad deck.

Instead of saying quality over quantity just run good cards so that you draw 3 quality cards. Seriously though those 2 cards fulfill different roles. Intent is a DT variant that can be used to tutor up specific answers/threats. Truths is a CA engine for grinding out other midrange/control decks. I like intent as a card but it shouldnt replace truths in my opinion.

[Bobmans]

Diabolic Intent is also turned off in more situations than Truths. It requires either a situation where you have expendable tokens or the loss of a real card to grab another card. Truths allows you to gas up. If you draw 3 cards that dont matter you either got unlucky or you built a bad deck.

Instead of saying quality over quantity just run good cards so that you draw 3 quality cards. Seriously though those 2 cards fulfill different roles. Intent is a DT variant that can be used to tutor up specific answers/threats. Truths is a CA engine for grinding out other midrange/control decks. I like intent as a card but it shouldnt replace truths in my opinion.

I would never compare Diabolic Intent with Painful Truths when talking about quality vs quantity, but i see where i made it confusing in my response. For me the comparison has more to do with a recurring effect of say Sensei's Divining Top's rearrange top 3 ability. Every turn the best of top 3 is in my oppinion more valuable then drawing 3 at once in NicFit. Of course there are situations were the opposite is true, but in general i'd rather have the best of 3 over the course of turns since games tend to go long. But drawing irrelevant stuff from Truth happens. Nothing to do with bad luck or bad deck. I see Diabolic Intent more as an option when your looking into a much more specific gameplan such as Walkerfit, Rector, Thune or Birthing Pod.

For every list 3 Sensei's Divining Top seems standard. Adding 1/2 Painful Truths is fine. Space is always tight so i never find anything i want to cut for Truths. same goes for Diabolic Intent or Sylvan Library. Instead my auto include is Courser of Kruphix. It works very well with Top and can be fetched with GSZ.

[Tom4ik]

Agreed that no other option is really the same as top when looking for a card quality machine. If I was on blue nic fit I wouldnt run top but either junk or jund and I would run 3. Truths is in the same role as library, courser, jace, or other cards that are generally used to generate CA. Maybe its the way I always played the deck but I would NEVER use a green sun on a courser. The card is too low impact for me to want to spend on it. Something like library is a bad top and a bad truth (in the sense of drawing pure cards) so I wouldnt play it over the other options.

I think play style might explain the differences in how we see certain cards. I always played nic fit (bug and punishing) as pure control deck with only like 10 creatures inc vets. Obv that does not lend itself to running intent. Running 3 deed and no deedable permanents meant I dont really favor library or coarser.

[Gus_13]

Anyone tried Lumbering Falls? I'm running it now with this list. I've been needing something late game for some matches when I can't get pod online and Grave Titan is not there.

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
4 Baleful Strix
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Shriekmaw
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
3 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Polluted Delta
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Lumbering Falls
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Underground Sea
Sb
3 Swan Song
3 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Minister of Pain
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Notion Thief
2 Golgari charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed

[Nargoron]

@ Nargoron: Vraska isn't meant to be a token producer. Therefor I prefer Elspeth KE, or even Garruk PH or Sorin.

I know that their roles are different...
but iam talking about .. what fit to junk nic fit more..
In my oppinion your version is much more aggresive and vraska just doenst fit to your play style. As you told, you won just one game on her ulty.
Isn't garruk / elspeth better for junk? - thats what iam talking about , not comparing this two planewalkers

I actualy run 0 planeswalkers and i wish to play one, but can decide which is the best for me.

I like intent as a card but it shouldnt replace truths in my opinion.


I like intent as a card but it shouldnt replace truths in my opinion.
tutor vs. draw engine...
two different things... but iam prefer tutor against drawing... just my oppinion :)

But in junk version there are not (unfortunatly) some superstrong combo and intent tutor isnt always strong as in some other versions...
On the other hand - your sideboards silverbullets x 2
When you desperatly need deed
When game is long and you need some bomb to finish
and so on...

And thats drive me back to present of one planeswalker in the deck again...
Becouse:
I wanna finish my opponent, but he can flip terminus... so fetch for some big dump guy inst an option for victory...
But for example garruk should be...
every turn 3/3 beast must have some influence
Its a pitty that there is no sigardock xD (hexproof no 4cmc+ spells)

[Bobmans]

i wish to play one, but can decide which is the best for me.

Thragtusk is nice vs Terminus and/or Swords to Plowshares. That aside, the walker you choose should compliment your gameplan and it is offcourse a meta call. Combat walkers do good vs control/Miracles and the tokens carry equipment like a champ. But combat walkers might aswell be just creatures in that regard if it suits the meta better. Liliana on the other hand serves better in a meta with big dudes and combo. Also it is nice to try out walkers just for the sake of it. I mean, i never played with Ajani, Mentor of heroes, but it looks pretty decent. Also Nissa, Vastwood Seer is starting to grow on me. Gonna try that card for sure.

[moseby]

A friend suggested Gideon, Ally of Zendikar as a plainswalker. specifically as a foil for miracles. You can drown them in tokens, then punch them in the face for 5 when you are sure their shields are down.

[Bobmans]

Garruk says:

http://s9.postimg.org/t4qpaxs73/garruk_santa_mtg_christmas_fan_art_by_rogierb.jpg

Magic Christmas

[pettdan]

Merry Christmas to all and keep on brewing! Must have been very nice this year, according to trustworthy sources I'll receive visit from a Christmas angel.. A foil Japanese Christmas angel.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/58/Christmas_Angel-A_Family_Story_album_cover.jpg

P.S. Pardon the randomness of the picture, best one I could find.

[uncletiggy]

Updated stoneforge list:

creatures 17
1 dryad arbor
3 vet
2 drs
1 teeg
1 ooze
1 sfm
1 qpm
1 witness
4 rhino
1 meren
1 sigarda

selection 9
3 top
3 zenith
1 intent
2 painful truths

disruption 14
4 therapy
3 decay
2 path
2 deed
1 pulse
1 sofi
1 solas

lands 21
2 bayou
2 savanna
1 scrubland
1 badlands
2 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
1 phrexian tower
1 volraths stronghold
1 karakas
3 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath


Sb 15
1 teeg
2 cannonist
1 dryad militant
1 k grip
1 deluge
2 thoughtseize
2 slaughter games
1 jitte
1 hymn
2 pithing needle
1 rip

Jitte moved to the board to switch in md solas improves mircles/grixis at the expense of only the elves mu. Deluge and deed also swaped from board to main improves miracles and dnt at the expense of grixis/reanimator. -1 teeg +1 cannonist in the board to compensate for the uptick in storm.

Md streamlined changes-

mentor was good probably better if actively supported. He would have been equally as good as any combat walker in the instances he landed and took over the game in testing for the time being its slot will be witness but likely to be elspeth down the road.

Courser never did enough and almost always would have been better as rhino #4.

Skeptically nightmare will be replaced by meren moving forward as a concession to the hype despite its over performance.

Full commitment to the path plan despite intents ability to turor for either exile effect.

Volraths stronghold is so good in long games vs miracles when you have the ability to sac with phyrexian tower in response to exile and tuck effects. It really hurts initial mana sources not being a fetch. Im not sold either way yet.

Karakas is in the same boat as stronghold. Sometimes being able to intent for it is the difference between winning and losing alternatively sometimes not being a fetch or being a nonbasic white source is back breaking. Likely to be a fetch unless i expect a lot of reanimator and sneak and show last minute.

Intent is in competition with gsz #4 or truths #3 and still proving to be too flexible to ignore.

Take it or leave it.

Merry Christmas
Beware Santos the Christmas ninja my canadien friends

[rubblekill]

I know that this post does not add anything new to the table, but I just wanted to highlight the value Elspeth KE is able to provide.

http://i.imgur.com/D5OyaOT.jpg

Not only does she spawn tokens that can carry equipments or threaten an opposing JTMS, our Princess often wins the game on the spot in the late game with her second ability.

Side note: I'm currently trying a sideboard without Militant and Needle: needle is a nonbo with deeds, and it can easily be countered by a counterbalance (a card that is a 4 of in the deck we solely bring needles against, for JTMS); instead of needle I prefer to play Tsunami or Grip. Militant is nice but gives value only if dropped on the field T1-2, and against dredge or storm we don't have time or simply cannot do that. Extirpate/SE fill the void and do the job at instant speed, and can provide surprise blowouts for the opponent.

The deck: http://i.imgur.com/zdCzucS.jpg (Mires and Foothills would be Catacombs..)

My sb is of course meta oriented:

-2 Ethersworn Canonist (storm, elves)
-1 Council's Judgement (planeswalker decks that don't play wastelands)
-1 Garruk Primal Hunter (control mu)
-3 Duress (mainly for storm, but sometimes I board them in in other mu)
-1 Extirpate (lands, storm, dredge, p fire decks)
-2 Carpet of Flower (everything that run islands)
-1 Krosan Grip (sfm decks, sdt decks, omnitell, S&S)
-1 Tsunami (miracles and other slow blue control decks)
-2 Slaughter Games (storm, miracles)
-1 Engineered Plague (elves, goblins, pyromancer decks)

This is the most balanced sideboard I can have for a miracles/storm infested meta, in my humble opinion. I'm open to hear your opinions.

(I'm not missing rhino surprisingly, I'd really like to play at least 1 rhino just to have a body that can carry equipments AND have trample, but to be honest I cannot find space in the main).

[Echelon]

I've been playing this deck for roughly 7-8 hours straight yesterday and have only come across one instance where I wanted my Starved Rusalka until I topdecked a Swamp to cast Cabal Therapy and sac Vet Ex from there.

So... Rusalka is too cute. It's officially out. I replaced it with a Tasigur to add an extra trick with my Fierce Empath, but over several hours and multiple possibilities to do so later I opted for GSZ to Rhino every time. I'm keeping it in for a little while longer, since Tasigur in itself is never a bad topdeck and Vet Ex -> Diabolic Intent into Tasigur might be a thing too, especially if you need a relatively big body fast and you can't wait that extra turn to cast Rhino. Not giving up on it yet.

During the day I did come to the conclusion I want to turn my third basic Forest into a second Phyrexian Tower, making my manabase as greedy as possible. Tower propels you forward so incredibly fast, even if you "only" sacrifice DRS/Arbor to it that just made mana. Having 4/5 mana turn 2 is just nuts.

Oh, and I lived the dream yesterday - I cast a turn 2 Sigarda. Lol.

[Warden]

I am so biased towards a Nic Fit list that is sweeper-heavy and plays bigger things. The SFM lists inevitably fall victim to their own deeds/toxics.

@uncletiggy: "Intent is in competition with gsz #4 or truths #3 and still proving to be too flexible to ignore."
I'm actually curious about your rationale here. Has truths been that strong for you in the list you just posted? Likewise, has GSZ been lackluster? Picking your brain on this one.

[Bobmans]

I am so biased towards a Nic Fit list that is sweeper-heavy and plays bigger things. The SFM lists inevitably fall victim to their own deeds/toxics.


Ahh... the fear of selfdestruction. Don't. It is not so bad once you accept that blowing your own field puts you in a better spot. If it don't.. you're doing it wrong. Between Meren, E.Witness, Stronghold and Sun Titan you should be ok.

[uncletiggy]

@warden- truths has been absolutley great at reloading on spot removal and taking some of the pressure off deed to keep the board clean. My curve is a lot lower then traditional lists making me a little quicker out of the gate and less reliant on popping an explorer. Rhino with a stick in his mouth makes your opponents board largely irrelevant in fair matchups. The intent is stellar in sideboard games at finding trump cards or truths to gas back up after a wave of disrupting. Specifically tutoring up rip and the hymm out of the board in storm and gravebased matches. I wouldnt say that gsz has been lackluster as much as i would say i find myself holding on to it as long as possible and valueing it much less in the early stages of the game and often times more as answer and less of a threat until after ive already established some degree of control over the board. The three biggest matches i worry about are storm miracles and shardless coincidentally im looking to resolve a teeg in all these matches and intent still functions under a teeg. I'm not sure if ill have time to adequately test the 3/3/3 split before tales of adventure this weekend and will likely play this current configuration. Three each of the tutor draw and filter effects could prove to be correct for my play style moving forward. For now i still have some adjusting to do as this wave of changes are pretty drastic and have moved me away from playing diverse answers and threats to a much more focused rhino centered list. This direction removes a lot of the game one utility of playing intent and likely invalidates its inclusion especially if im moving towards meren and away from nightmare(which im still not sold is correct as i find exiling removal to be the real issue i hardly get my creatures countered)

Hope that sheds some light on my thought process. Im not claiming its correct but it suits me.

[Warden]

Ahh... the fear of selfdestruction. Don't. It is not so bad once you accept that blowing your own field puts you in a better spot. If it don't.. you're doing it wrong. Between Meren, E.Witness, Stronghold and Sun Titan you should be ok.

That was actually my experience a while back. I found SFM and Deed running into each other. Plus times my SFM and equipment couldn't seal the deal. This was before Rhino and Meren though...


@warden- truths has been absolutley great at reloading on spot removal and taking some of the pressure off deed to keep the board clean. My curve is a lot lower then traditional lists making me a little quicker out of the gate and less reliant on popping an explorer.

Reading lines like this makes me want to play some Nic Fit right away lol. Maybe it's the combination of your list + lower curve that makes truths strong. There is some magical component that makes that card over-the-top and I simply haven't had enough time to tinker to be able to figure it out.


Rhino with a stick in his mouth makes your opponents board largely irrelevant in fair matchups.
Yes! I guess the inner question I've been asking myself is "how does Nic Fit reach the boardstate you describe?" The last event I played, I found Rhino sans equipment > anything a fair deck can do. Multiple Rhinos > Goyfs and DRS. Rhino + SFM is just gravy. I need a way to realistically survive long enough to make SFM + Rhino happen. Redundancy is definitely part of my solution (ie: 3-4x Deed, Rhino, etc rather than 2x Rhino). During my most recent event, I made the mistake of going light on X-for-1 cards. I had way too much spot removal. I think I needed more board-clearing options. Perhaps the answer is in running Truths (to simply draw more things)? I'm hesitant on running SFM again because she stunk the last time I ran her. Doesn't add up with me thinking about running even more board sweepers.


The intent is stellar in sideboard games at finding trump cards or truths to gas back up after a wave of disrupting. Specifically tutoring up rip and the hymm out of the board in storm and gravebased matches. I wouldnt say that gsz has been lackluster as much as i would say i find myself holding on to it as long as possible and valueing it much less in the early stages of the game and often times more as answer and less of a threat until after ive already established some degree of control over the board. The three biggest matches i worry about are storm miracles and shardless coincidentally im looking to resolve a teeg in all these matches and intent still functions under a teeg.

Makes a whole lot of sense. I definitely agree with your thoughts on GSZ. There are more games than I want to admit where I could GSZ early but choose not to. Sometimes I get these double GSZ hands and cringe because I have nothing more...idk...substantial?

@Rhino-centered approach: I understand what you're saying. I think the BGx shell of Nic Fit is amazingly fun to play. It's definitely strong in the meta when played correctly (see: pilots other than me lol). Deep down inside, I want to run Jund-Fit with Rhino/Sigarda/Teeg as the white cards --- there's gotta be a way! (and I gotta thank others for helping advance the discussion of "wtf does 4C Nic Fit's mana look like?")

[uncletiggy]

4 color nicfit mana scares me even the light red splash makes my mana atrocious. I find myself deeding almost exclusively for x=2 which makes playing the swords a moot point im considering cutting the mystic actually for a stranglroot geist to be able zenith for a way to manage jaces. The swords are fine to naturally draw into and dont require the single mystic to justify their slot.

[sdematt]

I think there's no problem running loose Equipment. We used to do it back in the day for value, and it worked. However, I'd just run double Sword since, as you said, it survives most Deed activations unlike Jitte and gives you the most pressure (SoLaS). Again, it's just about what to cut. Or, just play some 70-card behemoth that you can barely shuffle ;)

[uncletiggy]

@echelon im in the mentality right now that living the dream consists of casting a painful truths vs dnt for 5... :tongue:

[Echelon]

@echelon im in the mentality right now that living the dream consists of casting a painful truths vs dnt for 5... :tongue:

That would be the complete and utter tits!

As for the "Intent becomes invalid when running Meren" - I disagree. If anything, Meren warrants a second Intent in the main 60. In my list, the only removal I run are 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 PtE & 3 Deeds and I do surprisingly well with it. Even with the lack of 1-off removal game 1, I wouldn't run the list without my 2 Intents. I most often use it to tutor up a PtE/Deed and otherwise a Siege Rhino or a Meren/Karador when my GY is filled (making Intents GSZ 5 & 6), which works just fine. Diabolic Intent and Meren are just amazing. Meren basically lets you ignore the "sacrifice a creature"-part (and actually rewards you for casting it), turning it into a straight up Demonic Tutor.

Look at Intent as this: As long as the card you want to get is more important than the creature you are sacrificing, it's completely fine to do so. Just don't ever, ever play it into a counter. Heck, a little while back I even Intented a Rhino into another Rhino post-combat b/c I could cast Rhino #2 and at EoT return Rhino #1 to the field with Meren, lol.

Also, sunday I learned Meren, Eternal Witness & Pernicious Deed are a pretty cool combination to get up and running. Oh, and Karador rocks, even if I need to pay 6 mana for it. Totally worth it.

[uncletiggy]

I may not have accurately expressed what i meant about having meren over nightmare affecting intent. I intended to convey that being able to zenith for meren meant i no longer needed intent as a tutor for nightmare in place of gsz #4. I actually hadn't considered the synergy of intent adding counters to meren, foddering was considered . I ended up playing with nightmare today as none of my local retailers stock commander product singles for some reason? I wish I had the space to play more. :(

[rubblekill]

I feel like I'm coming close to what I feel like it's perfection, balance wise, for my play style. I have removed 1 SFM and 1 Tusk and put back 2 Rhino..The king is back, more pimp than ever like it's shown in this picture

http://i.imgur.com/IymEcg1.jpg

(Me living the dream with my good old friend )

All jokes aside, I am currently testing the SFM package (4 cards total) with 2 rhino (3 would be too much imo), because the trample is very relevant. We lose a little bit against terminus, but for the 5 cmc slot I play Garruk in the side anyway so it's not a problem because game 1 against miracles is already impossible in my experience.
I really feel like my build is very balanced and stable, I encourage you to test it.

E: It seems to me that a lot of people are too cute here and are headed straight towards magical christmas land. Anything less than 4 GSZ is wrong in this deck, not only because it's always one of our best cards, but because against decks like storm or gy dependant decks we want to maximise the chances of putting in play our lock pieces with the starting 7 cards (ooze, drs, teeg).
Going all in solely for Meren (Starved Rusalka, Karador etc) it's being just cute in my opinion. Agains stp.dec Meren is the first one to go to the sideboard.
I'm gonna get hated for this, but I'm gonna say it: P. Truths is a bad card in legacy. Bad. And we, the control deck, cannot afford to lose life and durdle with a sorcery that does nothing to the board or the opponent's hand; sign in blood and night whispers may very well be better cards, p. truths is the example of what hype can do to deck building. I am prepared for the hate already.
Finally, Sun Titan. I admit that I have not tested it already, but in theory he seems like he costs too much and is a 6 mana spell that eats swords to plowshares. He has a nice effect, but for that cost I'd like a little bit more of resiliency (6cmc planeswalkers?); I'll test it anyway to form a definite opinion on the matter.

[Warden]

I feel like I'm coming close to what I feel like it's perfection, balance wise, for my play style. I have removed 1 SFM and 1 Tusk and put back 2 Rhino..The king is back, more pimp than ever like it's shown in this picture

http://i.imgur.com/IymEcg1.jpg

(Me living the dream with my good old friend )

All jokes aside, I am currently testing the SFM package (4 cards total) with 2 rhino (3 would be too much imo), because the trample is very relevant. We lose a little bit against terminus, but for the 5 cmc slot I play Garruk in the side anyway so it's not a problem because game 1 against miracles is already impossible in my experience.

That's a hell of a board state (and the +6 mana of any color per turn). I wish I could live the dream like that.
For your list, I'm assuming it's http://i.imgur.com/zdCzucS.jpg minus the 1 SFM and 1 Tusk as you said. Don't fix it if it ain't broke. But I'd likely trade out something in favor of a 3rd Rhino or bring back the 1 Thragtusk.

[rubblekill]

That's a hell of a board state (and the +6 mana of any color per turn). I wish I could live the dream like that.
For your list, I'm assuming it's http://i.imgur.com/zdCzucS.jpg minus the 1 SFM and 1 Tusk as you said. Don't fix it if it ain't broke. But I'd likely trade out something in favor of a 3rd Rhino or bring back the 1 Thragtusk.

Yes it is that list, and yes you wish you could live a dream like that! Against reanimator..
About the 3rd rhino: the problem is the space in the main deck. I love my current removal package, and also my creature package. You could remove Elspeth, but she is here because of the online metagame. I think it's safe to say that outside of the online version I'd play -1 Elspeth +1Tusk.

[aicnelavo]

I'm gonna get hated for this, but I'm gonna say it: P. Truths is a bad card in legacy.

Im gonna have to agree with you here. Testing with truths showed me, more often than not, that three cards (with no card selection) is rarely worth the sorcery speed and mana invested. Not to mention the life. I run livingwish as my selection, and meren + friends mainboard as advantage, and frankly I havent missed painful truths. The sorcery speed of wish hurts eough.

[Tom4ik]

I guess agree to disagree because I have found that truths has been an amazing card so far. Yes it is not a 4 of, nor does it end the game just because it is cast but drawing 3 is better than you are giving it credit for. You talk about adding sylvan library, a 2 mana sorcery that does nothing the turn it comes into play, costs more life per card, and falls to a card everybody here is talking about making a 3-4 of (deed).

I get why living wish and diabolic intent are good. Tutoring is a great effect in a deck with as much variable power level in cards. That is why I played 3 dig through time when it was legal in Bugfit. That being said, if you have not played games where you run out of resources with this deck you have not played enough games. Unless I am against combo I would rather draw truths than living wish against shardless or grixis. Cards will get discarded, countered, removed and most CA in nic fit is tied into Deed or therapy.

My opinion is that having a CA engine that is not based off the graveyard and that uses a resource (life) that most nicfit decks are already packing ways of gaining (huntmaster, Tusk, rhino, bskull, drs, equips) is a great way to improve the consistency of the deck.

[aicnelavo]

When testing ive always ran it as a 2 of in replacement of both library and intent. Do you find it still worth the slot as a 1of?

[gth842s]

Just spitballing here, but Caleb Durward used to run Skeletal Scrying in his main - does the instant speed, and ability to set X>3, warrant trying the card out again? I'm inclined to say yes, the flexibility of playing this on your opponent's end step to force a counter and then being able to untap and slam your game winner of choice (Meren, Grave Titan, Rhino, whatever) seems great.

Thoughts?

[Echelon]

As a 2-off Truths is fine. During the lategame I'm almost always happy to see it. Drawing 3 when your hand is empty can be quite a big deal, and using it in the lategame means you'll have mana left to cast more stuff.

As for doing cute stuff: Ofcourse I do it, Meren gives us some more design space. Why not try our hand at some cute stuff? For all we know it's actually good. Sure, Starved Rusalka sucked, but Karador really is amazing. As for StP.dec - for some reason I don't see it all that much at my local gamestore and also they usually run 3 or 4 max (and like to waste them on stuff like DRS, which for this deck is mostly just cute, silly white mages).

You guys keep working with your equipment (assorted Swords on tramplers does sound pretty cool), I'll keep on exploring the deep end and enjoy the drowning that follows, lol. If Tasigur doesn't work out, I'll switch on to Multani's Acolyte.

[uncletiggy]

Aw go full circle 4 years and go deranged hermit as an echo value sac creature :)

[Echelon]

I'm mostly looking for a nice and easy value/CA engine to pair with my current crush (lol).

Yavimaya Elder was looking promising until I saw he only fetches basics and by the time I get the engine going, I'm probably fresh out of basics. Especially if I'm dropping another basic Forest for a second Phyrexian Tower.

[Chatto]

Just spitballing here, but Caleb Durward used to run Skeletal Scrying in his main - does the instant speed, and ability to set X>3, warrant trying the card out again? I'm inclined to say yes, the flexibility of playing this on your opponent's end step to force a counter and then being able to untap and slam your game winner of choice (Meren, Grave Titan, Rhino, whatever) seems great.

Thoughts?

I'm testing PT as a two of, and it is good. Not insane, but CA is CA.

I forgot about Skeletal Scrying! It can be better, will have try it again :smile:

[rubblekill]

What about this?

http://i.imgur.com/8DCNUbP.png

Junk fit superfriends?

[Chatto]

Why not Diabolic Intent?

[rubblekill]

Why not Diabolic Intent?

For one more mana we can reliably tutor without having to have a dude in play to sacrifice. I don't even know if a PW heavy build is doable, I just linked the picture to hear your opinions
And in a PW heavy build intent is a bad card.

[Chatto]

For one more mana we can reliably tutor without having to have a dude in play to sacrifice. I don't even know if a PW heavy build is doable, I just linked the picture to hear your opinions
And in a PW heavy build intent is a bad card.

Fair enough.

[aicnelavo]

Interesting card. It makes me think of Mc darby veteran walker list.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28982_Veteran-Walkers.html

For vet walkers what does white bring to the table (besides this new tutor) that can make up for jace, bs, and fow?
All in all It's an interesting card for a deck that I haven't seen much support for.

[Arianrhod]

What about this?

http://i.imgur.com/8DCNUbP.png

Junk fit superfriends?

Seems worse than just drawing a million cards with Painful Truths, if that's your jam.

[Echelon]

Or paying another mana for a Diabolic Tutor...

[uncletiggy]

I may end up chickening out on stoneforge fit this sat and playing my good stuff list:

4 vet
2 drs
1 scooze
1 qpm
1 teeg
1 ewitness
4 rhino
1 sigarda
1 tusk

3 top
4 zenith
2 truths

4 therapy
4 decay
2 path
3 deed
1 pulse

22 lands

2 bayou
2 scrub
2 savanna
1 badlands
3 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
1 tower
1 stronghold
3 catacombs
3 marsh flats

13g 13b 12w 7r

2 ts
2 games
2 needle
2 cannonist
1 grip
1 teeg
1 militant
1 rip
1 hymm
1 e plague
1 garruk ph

[Plm]

@ uncletiggy

Love your good stuff list (because mine is similar :smile:).

Just a few questions : why no meren ? (she really is nuts) and no love for courser ? (this one is debatable but meren is sooo good)

I like top + truth, both serves different needs.

Good luck Saturday and tell us how it went :smile:

[Echelon]

@uncletiggy: I'd take out 2 (redundant) duals for 2 more fetchlands. That'd bring the initial mana count for each colour up to the magical 14. Colour screw sucks.

Otherwise, nice list. Good luck!

[Tom4ik]

The new tutor is not good. At 2 mana it may have been playable in a 4 color walker list but 3 mana is unplayable considering walkers are already overcosted for the first effect or 2. None of the white walkers are good in the deck because they are neither board control nor really CA walkers but combat walkers which work better with a deck that puts creatures into play. Fow is very important to that deck as well as it allows you to tap out for a walker and still protect it.

[Bobmans]

Hmmmmm, what do we think about this:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/148/724/635872376041190467.png

[pettdan]

Wow, very interesting. Here are my unstructured thoughts..

It seems to have great digging potential (in a creature based control deck), but may be hard to motivate over a top. But even with top it's good for clearing the top cards when stuck. If top was banned I guess this may become a part of the group of cards replacing it. With top around maybe 1 or 2 in a list with a few planeswalkers.

Either way, it lets you dig for land (early game relevance), creatures (offensive capabilities, and defensive in the shape of hatebears from the sb) and most notably it does not allow you to dig for removal which you are often looking for in nic fit, encouraging playing planeswalkers for removal (liiana, vraska, ob nixilis and jace) or creatures with cip removal effects (Shriekmaw and Reclamation Sage).

[Edit: on a more basic level, this card shines in the opening hand when you are land light, allowing you to mulligan less. So with that settled, the question is how to make it a good late game card.]

Maybe this or similar could be a good package: 3 tops, 2 Oath of Nissa, 2 Shriekmaw, 1 Meren, 1 Liliana, 1 Vraska/Ob Nixilis.

I'm not sure how to take advantage of an enchantment in play. Reprisal is not good enough. [edit: Once in the graveyard it does offer a good digging option with Eternal witness, one that can't be exiled by Deathrite in response.]

The mana related effect seems rather periferal. I can se myself brewing with 2-3 Glittering Wish and 2-4 Oath of Nissa, also playing 2-4 Deathrites and using a sideboard of a few silver bullet planeswalkers. There hardly are any though so that'll be hard. I like Dack Fayden vs equipment and MUD. [edit: as mentioned in the rock thread, it does make Liliana more easily castable.]

Pardon all the edits, no matter how many times I revise a text I'll still be finding new angles..

[Echelon]

It'd probably compete with the Painful Truths slots. So it's either G: Scry 3 (let's go with the worst case scenario) or 2B: Lose 3 life and draw 3.

When drawing only 1 useful card with Truths, that new card is better. When drawing more gas, Truths has the bigger impact and would therefor be better. I don't like that it doesn't let you keep instants or sorceries. Sometimes one needs a GSZ/spot removal/Deed more than that DRS/Rhino/land you run into. It'd suck incredibly hard if that new card forces you to put away that PtE you needed and had on the top of your library and forces you to take that basic Plains that was just under it.

I'm not sure. I'll have to ponder on that one.

On a sidenote: it does make Garruk, Primal Hunter reliably castable.

[maharis]

GPH was the first card I thought of too.

I think if you load your deck up with spell effects on creatures like shriekmaw or QPM and cut cards that whiff you could be ok. The problem is whiffing on therapy/decay/deed/GSZ which are core cards so you have to replace those. Of course it does a reasonable GSZ impression, esp. if you're already not playing dryad arbor since you never accelerate t1 with GSZ anyway.

You can pack extra sac effects like rusalka or viscera seer or nezumi bone reader that you can grab off it to make up for therapy whiffs.

Interesting card but not sure our deck is creature dense enough to make it work.

[Arianrhod]

I don't think that OoN is worth considering too heavily at this point in time. If Top gets banned at any point, it's immediately worth considering -- unfortunately, I expect the card to be a standard all-star, so acquiring a set of foils to sit on is probably going to be more irritating than it's worth. If the card is undervalued at any point, though, it's probably worth it for a "just in case" scenario.

I will note that OoN plays awfully nicely with Sun Titan.

[Brael]

Hmmmmm, what do we think about this:

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/148/724/635872376041190467.png

Doesn't seem that great unless you're constantly replaying it.

Here's the number of hits you need for various success rates:
95% - 38 hits
90% - 32 hits
85% - 28 hits
80% - 25 hits
75% - 22 hits
70% - 20 hits
65% - 18 hits
60% - 16 hits
55% - 14 hits
50% - 12 hits

This is assuming a 60 card deck though, realistically you're going to have a 53 card deck with atleast -1 land in it, but this should be a good enough guide. With 22 lands and 16+ creatures I think we're looking at a 95%+ hit rate. That said, it still doesn't seem worth it, I think in most cases I would rather Top than cast this... maybe if there were some difficult to cast planeswalkers. In theory you could do something like play JTMS alongside Siege Rhino with Oath being the only way to cast Jace.

[uncletiggy]

Boo 4-2 for 10th place out of 47.

Bug turbo depths 0-2
Bw painter 2-0
Elves 1-2
Maverick 2-0
No show 2-0t
Lands 2-0

Vs Turbo depths got nutted game one punted and game two by boarding out witness. I Could have brought back a path to keep playing but died on a zenith for 3 and a fail to find :'(

Elves was the worst game one keep all day, didnt cast a spell went straight to game two showing mardu colors... ouch. Game two e. Plague into s games for hoof was gg. Hardcasted hoof in game three off the top for exactsies was sad.


Turths was the truth.

I Didnt need the nightmare, I was able to navigate chasm with ease without it.

I Never once encountered a situation where i wanted meren over tusk. The tusk did work surviving marit lage swings and I ate a couple today.

The Deck felt the great, the board felt fine, i didn't see the matches I expected to but it was flexible enough to give some play.


Take aways on the weekend. If you expect more sneak/reanimator/lands -1 decay +1 path if you expect more miracles/shardless 4 decays. Take it or leave it everyones meta is different. Confirmend on the day 3 painter 3 miracles 3 shardless 3 burn 3 elves 2 lands 2 storm, 2 esper, goblins, maverick, dnt, sneak/show, rug, grixis, infect.

Props to echelon I cut one each extraneous dual to go 4/4 on the fetches. I mulled one game to having both towers and only both towers For mana reasons all weekend. I kept six or better all day except vs elves in game two and it went extremely well.

Tldr: 4 times today I wanted a pro black flying green creature to zenith for where x <5. Just don't even say it...fml

[Echelon]

Props to echelon I cut one each extraneous dual to go 4/4 on the fetches. I mulled one game to having both towers and only both towers For mana reasons all weekend. I kept six or better all day except vs elves in game two and it went extremely well.

I'm glad to have been of help. I still have to get a hold of a second Phyrexian Tower to complete my ubermanabase.

With that second Tower I'd be on this puppy (22 total, though only 21 really count as lands):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

14 initial sources for each colour, dual Phyrexian Tower and a Dryad Arbor as multitool (seriously, from GSZ for X=0 for some extra speed to fetch -> chump/dodge a Lilliana -2 to Diabolic Intent-fodder to fog-a-Goyf with Meren/Karador, this little bugger does so much work). For now I'm on +1 Forest, -1 Phyrexian Tower, which also runs like a dream.

On a somewhat related note, running so many shuffling effects (10 fetch, 4 Vet Ex, 4 GSZ, 2 Diabolic Intent, 1 Fierce Empath) in my build has been a real boon for Courser of Kruphix, which I love to GSZ for.

Edit: I'm thinking about another experiment. Rather than running 3 DRS, I'd want to run 3 Exploration. It's a card I've always loved, enables some explosive starts and turns Courser into a real CA engine.

The list would look as follows:
Main (60):
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Fierce Empath
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Exploration

4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

SB (15):
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace


Might be too cute though. DRS can seriously fuck with an opponents' game, which is always fun.

[sdematt]

Boo 4-2 for 10th place out of 47.

Bug turbo depths 0-2
Bw painter 2-0
Elves 1-2
Maverick 2-0
No show 2-0t
Lands 2-0

Vs Turbo depths got nutted game one punted and game two by boarding out witness. I Could have brought back a path to keep playing but died on a zenith for 3 and a fail to find :'(

Elves was the worst game one keep all day, didnt cast a spell went straight to game two showing mardu colors... ouch. Game two e. Plague into s games for hoof was gg. Hardcasted hoof in game three off the top for exactsies was sad.


Turths was the truth.

I Didnt need the nightmare, I was able to navigate chasm with ease without it.

I Never once encountered a situation where i wanted meren over tusk. The tusk did work surviving marit lage swings and I ate a couple today.

The Deck felt the great, the board felt fine, i didn't see the matches I expected to but it was flexible enough to give some play.


Take aways on the weekend. If you expect more sneak/reanimator/lands -1 decay +1 path if you expect more miracles/shardless 4 decays. Take it or leave it everyones meta is different. Confirmend on the day 3 painter 3 miracles 3 shardless 3 burn 3 elves 2 lands 2 storm, 2 esper, goblins, maverick, dnt, sneak/show, rug, grixis, infect.

Props to echelon I cut one each extraneous dual to go 4/4 on the fetches. I mulled one game to having both towers and only both towers For mana reasons all weekend. I kept six or better all day except vs elves in game two and it went extremely well.

Tldr: 4 times today I wanted a pro black flying green creature to zenith for where x <5. Just don't even say it...fml

Mystic Enforcer. I want to play that guy so badly.

So Baneslayer is the nut, but not being able to tutor her is kind of shitty. More testing to follow. Put Nightmare back in and with no Intent, was also kind of clunky. Still working out the kinks again.

[Ganfar]

This is the deck I came 2rd place with:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19143&iddeck=145524

I was lucky to get to top8, only one of the four 3-2 could be in the top 8.

The Strom player I met first in top8 lose to himself and I won agnaist burn.

The meta was half fair decks what was not go to combo and then rest was combo.

I have realied that I can't deal with big guys like Griselbrand and Emmakrull. Also no good grind card to combo.

So I want two Liliana int he deck:

+2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 E. Witness
-1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Ob was nice but was just a better but costly then Liliana. He play the same role was Liliana so he is out.

I have two Witness so skip one is no big deal.

I also take out Broodmate Dragon for a Strombreat Dragon to lower the curve and test him out. Now that I lower the overall cost the deck so discarding lands for Lialan don't feel so bad.

I report what I think about the changes efter wensday.

[Gazoline]

what do you guys think about this one? i kinda like it! :D something with dryad arbor with a equipment?

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/148/847/635874886367646731.png

Embodiment of Insight
Creature - Elemental (U)
Vigilance
Land creatures you control have Vigilance.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may have target land you control become a 3/3 Elemental creature with haste until end of turn. It's still a land.
4/4

[Bobmans]

This is the deck I came 2rd place with:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19143&iddeck=145524

I was lucky to get to top8, only one of the four 3-2 could be in the top 8.

The Strom player I met first in top8 lose to himself and I won agnaist burn.

The meta was half fair decks what was not go to combo and then rest was combo.

I have realied that I can't deal with big guys like Griselbrand and Emmakrull. Also no good grind card to combo.

So I want two Liliana int he deck:

+2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 E. Witness
-1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

Ob was nice but was just a better but costly then Liliana. He play the same role was Liliana so he is out.

I have two Witness so skip one is no big deal.

I also take out Broodmate Dragon for a Strombreat Dragon to lower the curve and test him out. Now that I lower the overall cost the deck so discarding lands for Lialan don't feel so bad.

I report what I think about the changes efter wensday.
Gratz on the result. Very nice to see the deck pop up. Noticed it the other day and figured it was yours with the Ob.

Good luck with the change. I think it is a good call. Liliana is a must since you have many creatures out of reach with PFire and Deed/Decay alone.
Like said before, if you feel you want more Liliana, going to 61 by adding 3rd Liliy works perfectly fine with the deck.

And how was the singleton Trinisphere?

On another note, Matt. Marit Lage vs NicFit. The creature sucks balls. I hate it every time i see it. Baneslayer probably the best option unless you want Birds of Paradise with a Mask of Law and Grace (prevents dying from PFire to). Or BoP with an active Meren. Although Baneslayer is still awesome to have.

[Warden]

...
Embodiment of Insight
Creature - Elemental (U)
Vigilance
Land creatures you control have Vigilance.
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, you may have target land you control become a 3/3 Elemental creature with haste until end of turn. It's still a land.
4/4

That's not really what I'm looking for in Nic Fit. Maybe others disagree? Thragtusk and Sigarda are textbook 5 drops to run. Baneslayer arguable in that mix (usually a SB choice).


Gratz on the result. Very nice to see the deck pop up. Noticed it the other day and figured it was yours with the Ob.

Good luck with the change. I think it is a good call. Liliana is a must since you have many creatures out of reach with PFire and Deed/Decay alone.
Like said before, if you feel you want more Liliana, going to 61 by adding 3rd Liliy works perfectly fine with the deck.

And how was the singleton Trinisphere?

On another note, Matt. Marit Lage vs NicFit. The creature sucks balls. I hate it every time i see it. Baneslayer probably the best option unless you want Birds of Paradise with a Mask of Law and Grace (prevents dying from PFire to). Or BoP with an active Meren. Although Baneslayer is still awesome to have.

@Ganfar:
Throw another congrats into the ring. That's a really cool list. I am also curious about Trinisphere. Is it doing enough against Combo (does it win/can you survive to play it)?

@Marit Lage: S.Games, STP, Path, Vindicate (the land), Wasteland (the land), P.Needle, and Revoker.

[uncletiggy]

@ matt - you said it. two more times and he'll appear and take us back into a world before goyf. When I cut the intent the nightmare and karkas also just became loose ends that folded into more deeds amd decays.

@ warden- the quick marit lage is tough to deal with Im thinking ensnaring bridge would actually be good in a lot of tough matches like mud, lands varients, sneak and show, reanimator, and turbo eldrazi.

[Arianrhod]

Karakas is the best answer to Merit Lage (with Needle being your best sideboard option), or, the REAL best answer: dodge Lands. The matchup is rough regardless of Merit Lage, and the fast 20/20 hands are basically unbeatable by us. Accept that you can't beat anything if you try to beat anything, and move on with your life. See also: my philosophy regarding reanimator.

Arbitrary 4g elemental maker dude isn't playable. We've started cutting Thragtusk in some color combinations / lists, and that guy is no Thragtusk.

I experimented with Mystic Enforcer a couple years ago, and it was decent but generally unexciting. I think that flip-Nissa fills the same type of role (the Green Sunnable lategame monster that's decent early) now, but better.

Still tuning and tinkering with "ultimate" fit, planning on jamming it at Mythic this weekend. I'll try to post an updated list before I pack up Friday night. The idea may still end up being flawed, but I want to at least try it and see what happens on the off chance that it's amazing.

[Echelon]

The elemental is too cute. It does too little when compared to the things it has to compete with (Siege Rhino, Sigarda, Thragtusk).

Concerning Merit Lage: Yeah, well, 4 PtE. That's all I'm going to say. Lol.

@Warden: Since when does Nic Fit run Wasteland..?

[Bobmans]

Karakas is the best answer to Merit Lage (with Needle being your best sideboard option)

Karakas is shit vs RG lands MU. They will get rid of it before it is relevant, even if you have a way if finding it asap.
I overlooked the obvious, but Echelon is right. 4x PtE is at its best here. And it doesnt even polute the regular gameplan.

[grokh]

Hi,

I've seen no chat about this new card in the thread :

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/81/547/635869860598774304.png

It seems pretty good :
- it's cheap
- sac-engine
- make you gain life
- got Deathtouch and nice body : 2/3 Deathtouch for CCM 2
- the second ability may be irrelevant but can be nice when we're in the late game

Nope ?

[Echelon]

It's not GSZ-able, it dies to Bolt and Abrupt Decay and can't take over a game like Scavenging Ooze (which it would be competing with) can.

So no.

[uncletiggy]

My only problem with the all in path plan is chalice on one in post board games. like I said tho I may opt for the 3/3 split on path and decay to help with bigmonster.deck. I typically decay mox diamond/ exploration on sight leaving chalice the ability to sneak in during post board games slowing down my path/needle deployments. My round six lands opponent got stuck behind on mana by only playing the single basic and missing a color by leaning too heavily on mox making that thought process sound.

@arianrhod- I worry that if I write off all the turn one decks (belcher tinfins opps) and all the fatty/ramp decks(mud/turbo eldrazi/sneak show/reanimator/turbo lage/lands) that im not giving myself a fair shot in an unkown meta. I understand your logic that you cant beat everything but my board could afford to loose the hymm and that just leaves one more cut to squeeze two bridges in improve a lot of traditionally unwinnable/ poor matches that aleady have some splash hate in the board but need a little more oompf. i havent triend the bridges yet but i may give them a whirl next go around.

[Arianrhod]

My only problem with the all in path plan is chalice on one in post board games. like I said tho I may opt for the 3/3 split on path and decay to help with bigmonster.deck. I typically decay mox diamond/ exploration on sight leaving chalice the ability to sneak in during post board games slowing down my path/needle deployments. My round six lands opponent got stuck behind on mana by only playing the single basic and missing a color by leaning too heavily on mox making that thought process sound.

@arianrhod- I worry that if I write off all the turn one decks (belcher tinfins opps) and all the fatty/ramp decks(mud/turbo eldrazi/sneak show/reanimator/turbo lage/lands) that im not giving myself a fair shot in an unkown meta. I understand your logic that you cant beat everything but my board could afford to loose the hymm and that just leaves one more cut to squeeze two bridges in improve a lot of traditionally unwinnable/ poor matches that aleady have some splash hate in the board but need a little more oompf. i havent triend the bridges yet but i may give them a whirl next go around.

Keep in mind that Ensnaring Bridge is frequently a card that people board in against us, as well. Looping Rhinos with Nightmare becomes the only real wincon at that point.

My philosophy is based off of %s. Keep two things in mind: Nic Fit is fundamentally a metagame predator -- it's an especially versatile one, and can be tuned to beat almost anything, but at the end of the day it's still happiest when the meta is favorable for it to prey upon. Also, there are very few people in any given room that run any of the decks you listed. Do they exist? Yes, for sure. Sneak in particular has a propensity for being more popular than it really should -- although Sneak is the one deck amongst everything you listed that I feel we actually have a good shot against, even without any special attention paid. Slaughter Games wrecks them, and Cabal Therapy is already one of the best cards you can be playing against that deck.

A fun fact that's worth remembering, incidentally, is that to the "core" decks of the format (your RUG Delvers, Shardlesses, Miracles, etc), WE are the boogeyman that you're worried about. We're definitely in that category of unpopular / low population decks that can be very scary to people.

[Tom4ik]

As someone who has been on BUG midrange for the last month I can def say that running into siege rhinos would certainly be an unpleasant experience.

[Ganfar]

Gratz on the result. Very nice to see the deck pop up. Noticed it the other day and figured it was yours with the Ob.

Good luck with the change. I think it is a good call. Liliana is a must since you have many creatures out of reach with PFire and Deed/Decay alone.
Like said before, if you feel you want more Liliana, going to 61 by adding 3rd Liliy works perfectly fine with the deck.

And how was the singleton Trinisphere?


Thanks, it was more luck then skill but it was fun to get Top8 in the frist big tourament.

I will play some games with this before I do more changes.

Trinishere was nice against Show and Tell, his cantrips costed three and so it slowed him down a bit. I am going to remove the Deed in the sideborad for another one. I never wanted to sideborad in Deed to any match-up, it was matchups I was already in favour in. And I need more combo hate.

[uncletiggy]

Either way id like to atleast try them out between rhinoing deathrite and the two towers and having control over the hand size that bridge is checking squeeking in an alpha strike is possible. it may be worth it if i decide to frequent that store and board more specifically to that meta game. I also may just cut the hymm for another needle or say a vindicate? The vindicate is answer to jace that deed wont sweep up?

[Warden]

Karakas is the best answer to Merit Lage (with Needle being your best sideboard option), or, the REAL best answer: dodge Lands. The matchup is rough regardless of Merit Lage, and the fast 20/20 hands are basically unbeatable by us. Accept that you can't beat anything if you try to beat anything, and move on with your life. See also: my philosophy regarding reanimator.

Probably the best answer, honestly. We're worrying over a fringe MUs pulling strong/god-hands.


...@Warden: Since when does Nic Fit run Wasteland..?

Caught a few lists running 2x. I've tried it myself (even though it sucks lol).

@Ayli:
Despite the power creep in Magic overall, this card just isn't enough. Others mentioned all the main points. Again, this thing isn't green and even if it was, it would need to be better than Scooze. It's also a legend (which is a weakness unless it has shroud like Sigarda).


...fun fact that's worth remembering, incidentally, is that to the "core" decks of the format (your RUG Delvers, Shardlesses, Miracles, etc), WE are the boogeyman that you're worried about. We're definitely in that category of unpopular / low population decks that can be very scary to people.

Very solid point. Definitely the reason I branched into this deck in the first place.
In other news, I may not be able to reach Mythic (important real life things creeping in). I'm curious what your list looks like. I'll send you a PM.

[Gazoline]

That's not really what I'm looking for in Nic Fit. Maybe others disagree? Thragtusk and Sigarda are textbook 5 drops to run. Baneslayer arguable in that mix (usually a SB choice).
Alrihty, thanks for the input! Maybe its better in maverick/aggro loam or some KoR Deck where they play around with more lands. i found it intresting! might try it out in some kind of deck XD

[Arianrhod]

Here's the list I'm running at Mythic this weekend:


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Siege Rhino
2 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Engineered Plague
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Notion Thief
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm


I'll share my card-by-card / thought process now, and then go over what happens on the other side of the event. I'll also freely admit that I have no idea how this is going to go and am looking for data more than anything. It may be that the idea isn't actually functional and I'll just fall flat on my face, or it may be that the idea is amazing and crushes. My realistic expectation is that it will work to a nominal degree, and I'll have some tuning to do for the future, but the idea won't be rejected out of hand.

4 Vet + 2 DRS: This is where I've settled at this point. Coupled with the 3 Zeniths, this list has 9 early mana producers (junk lists have 10, since I run 4 Zeniths there). Some people prefer 3/3, 4/2 just feels a bit cleaner to me, and Veteran has some extra bonuses beyond Deathrite (doesn't get into Deathrite wars with opponent, draws StP like a lightning rod, etc).

3 Strix: Opted to put in the 3rd Strix over the 2/1 Strix/Oracle split that I previously had. The flying deathtouch is just too relevant, and if I can z@2, I'd probably rather get a Deathrite in the midgame or a Vet early anyway. Also, Meren value is -insane- with Strix.

Nissa/E.Wit: I don't know what more I can really say about this card. I don't think I can sing her praises any higher. E.Wit is just a staple of every variety, nothing to say there.

3 Rhinos: I think that 3 Rhinos is better than 4 in general, and certainly with white as the splash color. 4 Rhinos clogs too much, in my opinion. Nic Fit has enough strong 4-drops to run that it doesn't need to take up infinite space with Rhino.

Venser & Meren: Both of these cards are on the watch list for the weekend. Meren has the potential for some severe abuse in this deck, and Venser gives us maindeck stack interaction as well as a way around troublesome permanents that we can't interact with otherwise. The main strike against them is that they're 4-drops, which clunks up the curve a bit. I expect that after this weekend, I'll be cutting one of them, but I want to see which one of them performs better and what cards I need to put into the deck before I make the decision.

2 Thragtusks: This may be a little surprising since there are also 3 Rhinos. There are several reasons for this. The first is that BUG has a critical weakness at the 5-spot compared to Junk, since it doesn't have a Sigarda or a Baneslayer. Sidisi is playable, but not really what this deck wants to be doing. Mimeoplasm is great, but color intensive and requires a certain board state to shine. Thrag is the old standby. Rhino may be the shiny new kid on the block, but Thrag has always pulled its weight and does exactly what you need it to. Thrag's additional lifegain helps me feel more secure against aggro matchups, as well as lets me draw a bunch of cards with Painful Truths without feel bad. Plus, there's the ludicrous Deadeye synergy.

Deadeye and ConSphinx: The two best 6-drops that any color has to offer, hands down, and part of the reason to go core blue in the first place. Nic Fit as a deck is a story told by cards that either are, or should be, banned in EDH. Both of these six drops qualify for that. They look to be even better than usual in this deck, since they have a full recursion suite to protect them as well as enough lower-drop bombs that the opponent should be completely out of gas by the time we get to this point. Also, linking Deadeye and Rhino will ACTUALLY kill someone very, very quickly, instead of just making a ton of value as Deadeye lists have done in the past.

4 Therapy: yup.

3 Zenith: There's enough blue creatures here, and enough card draw, that I feel comfortable going down to 3 of these in this list. Still agreed that 4 is generally more correct, but I think that this list is a bit of an exception to that.

2 Painful Truths: This is basically taking the slot of the other 2 Tops. With 5 heavy lifegain creatures in the deck, I'm not worried about cutting myself too much, and I'd rather just flat draw the cards as opposed to draw them and then put two back with Brainstorm (plus Jace is taking the role of Brainstorm in this deck). It's possible that there should be a third copy in the deck, but I want to start with 2 and see where we go from there.

2 Decay: I couldn't find more room for maindeck removal than this. I wanted to maindeck the Pulse, but it'll have to do. Decay is easily the best removal spell to maindeck when you have limited room.

3 Deed / 1 Nightmare: The staple enchantments. Again, Nightmare gets BETTER with Meren -- it's not an "either or" situation. When both are present in the same deck, each one is more powerful than when they are on their own. Even if Meren ends up coming out of this deck in the long run, Nightmare will stay because it's absolutely nutty in this deck.

2 Jace TMS: Still the best walker that money can buy. More often going to be a 4-mana brainstorm/unsummon bot than a wincon in this deck, but it's nice to have the extra backup plan if needed.

Ashiok: This one probably will raise a lot of eyebrows. I actually have quite a fondness for Ashiok and was planning on sideboarding one. As I looked over the deck, though, I came to the conclusion that the deck's 3-spot was weak and needed an extra threat. Courser is a solid option, but it's not very threatening. The best UG 3-drops are Trygon and Edric, neither of which I'm particularly interested in at this time, although Edric has performed for me in the past in blue nic fit lists. That leaves threatening non-creature 3-drops, which Ashiok is very, very close to the top of that list across all colors. She's also never a dead draw against anything, since she's equally strong against both combo decks and fair decks. She screws up Miracles' Tops while threatening to take their Mentors, demands an immediate Decay from Shardless or will run away with the game super quickly, and can exile key combo pieces from storm while building to a game-winning ultimate quite quickly.

Manabase: Considered -1 Bayou -1 Confluence +2 fetches, but opted out of that once I cut the Brainstorms for removal. For the things I have that care about shuffles, I think six is enough. Again, I'll keep an eye on it moving forward, but it should be fine the way it is.

//sideboard

Slaughters + Taiga: The transformational package for combo. Out with the Rhinos and the Savannah, in with the Slaughters and Taiga. Vs Miracles you can just bring this package in and keep the Rhinos, since they don't disrupt your mana base and you want more power and less air in your deck postboard, which also nets you an important 23rd land when Vet-less.

Plague: Nuts against Elves; fine vs Miracles, Grixis Control, and Young Peezy delver decks. Has fringe benefits vs Storm, Dredge, Stoneblade (True-Name) and a couple other decks. Wanted a second copy, but wanted other things more.

Pulse/Decay: I think I like splitting this 1/1 better than just sideboarding the other two Decays. The Pulse gives you a a more versatile answer and can be boarded in vs a wider range of matchups.

2 Carpets: been a while since I was on these. This deck has a sufficiently powerful enough topend that I think that having a pair of Carpets will help in blue matchups a lot. Plus, it color fixes and accelerates into earlier Slaughter Games against a lot of the combo decks. Besides, I like just flat invalidating people who think that Daze and Pierce are playable against Nic Fit.

Lotion Thief: This is mostly here as a Shardless trump more than anything else, although being able to get generic blue decks off their Brainstorms is also fine. I don't think that it's ever worth running more than one copy of this guy in legacy, but I do think that the first copy justifies itself pretty easily.

Glen Elendra: Another reason to play blue, bottom line. Nuts against anything with spells in the deck: miracles, shardless, any combo deck, half the fair decks. It even has value against elves.

Thoughtseizes + Flusters: Solid 4-of "fuck your combo" suite, split down the middle to attack different things and come from different angles. Pretty standard here, honestly.

-----------

So there you go, there's my list and my rationales. A lot of this is grounded in deeper philosophical realizations about Nic Fit as a deck in general, which I don't have the time to type up currently. I'll try to voice some of them when I post again on Sunday with the results from Mythic.

[Bobmans]

Top8 @ JK open 174 player event
Interesting list. Would love to read a report on this one.



Explorer Pod
Moritz Mathes
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Restoration Angel
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Siege Rhino
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Wingmate Roc
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswepth Heath
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 2 Hymn of Tourach
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Painful Quandary
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg

[Ralf]

Top8 @ JK open 174 player event
Interesting list. Would love to read a report on this one.

Sounds really familiar ;)

[Bobmans]

Sounds really familiar ;)
So it was you! Great perfomance!

Edit: ok it was not Ralf...


No, not me ! But the list is very close to the Abzan POD list I was suggesting a few pages back.

[Ralf]

So it was you! Great perfomance!

No, not me ! But the list is very close to the Abzan POD list I was suggesting a few pages back.

[Warden]

@Arianrhod: Thanks for the PM. I greatly appreciate your thoughts :)

My advice for Mythic
Maindeck: I think Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver needs to go. I think you should run Decay #3 or Pulse #1 in its place. You reference how strong the card is, but I think it is better served in the SB. You're light on spot-removal and even mentioned wanting Pulse somewhere. Not sure how you can react to a pesky permanent once it's on the table. Only 2 decay and 3 deed. If facing an opposing PWer (Jace, etc), you have nothing in the main to shoot it down.

Sideboard: I'd cut Plague for Toxic Deluge (Elves hasn't been a factor at Mythic in a while -- Deluge much better IMO at handling top decks at the moment because it wraths everything).
1 of your [Decay/Pulse] moves to the main -- trade this straight up for Ashiok. Swap both Carpets for Pithing Needle.

[ironclad8690]

People in this threads face when they saw how expensive phyrexian tower is now:

http://replygif.net/i/769.gif

As for some useful post content:

My core issue with Nic Fit lately has been the rise in popularity of Grixis Delver feat. Stifle and co. Stifle is one of the best cards vs us because there are limitless targets and sometimes just having 1 activated/triggered ability stifled can mean the end of the road for us. How have you all been dealing with the surge in popularity of Stifle based delver decks?

[Warden]

People in this threads face when they saw how expensive phyrexian tower is now:

http://replygif.net/i/769.gif

As for some useful post content:

My core issue with Nic Fit lately has been the rise in popularity of Grixis Delver feat. Stifle and co. Stifle is one of the best cards vs us because there are limitless targets and sometimes just having 1 activated/triggered ability stifled can mean the end of the road for us. How have you all been dealing with the surge in popularity of Stifle based delver decks?

Wow. This idea of cashing out is looking more and more appealing when $1.50 cards are suddenly $30.

@Grixis Delver: Honestly, I build out from a removal suite of Deeds, Decays, Sword/Path, and Toxic D. While what you say is correct, the Grixis decks bank on about 12-16 creatures pulling the win. A large chunk of the deck is durdley spells so they can effectively have Delver and Pyro.The variants with DRS absolutely need that little guy in order to function. In my experience, blowing up one of their threats early back their clock considerably.

[jbone2016]

Has anyone thought about matter reshaper in Explorer Pod?

I plan on running P Fire Rhino Fit (splashing for 2 rhinos and a couple of sideboard cards) on Sunday at local IQ.
I was 2-2 at a smaller store event last week
(Losing to Miracles, beating Sneak/Show, losing to Mono Sneak Attack, beating a unusual reanimator deck)

I'll get list up if anyone wants it.
Also, (Dr. Nick voice)Hi Everybody(/voice)

[Echelon]

People in this threads face when they saw how expensive phyrexian tower is now:

http://replygif.net/i/769.gif

As for some useful post content:

My core issue with Nic Fit lately has been the rise in popularity of Grixis Delver feat. Stifle and co. Stifle is one of the best cards vs us because there are limitless targets and sometimes just having 1 activated/triggered ability stifled can mean the end of the road for us. How have you all been dealing with the surge in popularity of Stifle based delver decks?

A buddy of mine plays the shit out of Grixis Delver. From what I've seen is that it can't handle a build with 4 PtE and the tools to look for them and/or recur those. The deck still plays only 12 to 14 threats. Handle those and you'll have all the time in the world. At the end of the day it's still delver.dec, so you should be happy to face it. It just might take some getting used to.

PtE actually is a real necessity in this MU since they can run Gurmag Anglers, which you might miss with your Therapies. It's one of the few creatures that threaten most of ours so it's important to get rid of it.

All in all the MU still isn't all that bad. It just takes some getting used to the tricks Grixis Delver does. It's always fun to get out a Scavenging Ooze to start fucking with their DRS and ability to cast Angler. They really need to answer Ooze ASAP or it might just take over the entire game.

[Memories of the Time]

Has anyone thought about matter reshaper in Explorer Pod?

I'm a bug pod player, and i really would love to play Matter but... it's impossibile. If you draw him, you have no chance of play him...
So max 1x, and i don't think i would accept that risk.

@Pod top: very very nice <3 Pod forever