[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[pettdan]

I'll get list up if anyone wants it

Stop teasing us and post the list, please! :)

[uncletiggy]

I'm really curious how wingmate roc was in that pod list. is it better then having the sometimes clunky i win thune combo?

[Ralf]

I think the wingmate roc is just another 5ccm drop "podable" into Dromoka.
Obviously, you don't want to sac Sigarda when you have already use Shriekmaw.

The list is very close to what I have suggested and I think everyone here would like to hear some of the choices made by this German Wizard. At least here are a few things I'd like to hear back:

- Why Rhino ?
- Why no Meren ?
- Why Qasali Pridemage instead of Reclamation Sage (better against Infect but nonbo with Pod) ?
- Why Tidehollow instead of Sin Collector.
- How many games won on Dromoka's backfoot ?

[Gruby]

Hi.
Does anybody takes into account http://media.wizards.com/2015/ogw_239nCi30ks3/en_2xAXRdWQSW.png in scapeshift lists?

This one (two) looks cool on paper with Courser.

Any thoughts?

[Bobmans]

I think it is a very decend card that could potentially be a 4/4 Trample, while able to protect lands from wasteland or bounce them for additional Valakut triggers. It is good that it is out of reach for both Decay as Bolt.

[Arianrhod]

3-3-drop at Mythic; opted to leave early and try to beat the weather rather than play the last round for an outside, unlikely angle at $75. 67 people this month, which is a great sign for northeast legacy -- it keeps growing every month.

I played the exact list I last posted, without any of the changes Warden suggested. Most of the reason for that is because I just didn't have time to revisit the deck before the event -- I'd written out my decklist several days in advance and just flat ran out of time due to real life shenanigans and couldn't make any edits.

Here's how the day went -- my thoughts on the list / concept will be at the end.

R1: Mark with BGu turbolandishthing

This was basically a modern deck. As is the way of Nic Fit, it was also absolutely terrifying for me because it was going far larger than any legacy deck is //supposed// to, and his deck attacked along an axis that I was rather unprepared for. Game one is super grindy. He gets out an early Courser (hey, we play that card!) and gets a ton of value off of it, following it up with an Oracle of Mul Daya (hey, we sometimes play that card too >_>). He does some Loam things, I do some Nic Fit things. Then he plays Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. People who've been in the thread for a while will know that I've thought about trying that guy out a couple of times. I'm pretty terrified at this point; he has Loam and several Ghost Quarters in play, and I'm only at 14. I try to slide into a tempo strategy while digging for a Therapy, so I can bounce + discard Ob, but I don't find it. I've got a ConSphinx out, though, that's drawing me a million cards while flying for 4, so there's that. He drains me down very low at one point, but I'm able to gain just enough life off of a Thragtusk AND Rhino in the same turn to live for another one. I Venser his Ob, Decay on of his Worm Harvest tokens so Rhino can trample better (!!!), and swing in for lethal, ending the game at a balmy 4 life.

Scary as fuck.

For sideboarding, I decide to treat my opponent's deck like a combo deck, but I opt to edge greedy since he was only using his Ghost Quarters to target his own lands; he saw that I play a ton of basics in game one, so I gamble that he won't GQ me. I came to this decision based on the fact that I need lifegain so stay in the running vs Ob Nix. I took out the Decays, brought in Pulse, and did some other things I don't remember.

Game two is an exercise in Cabal Therapy skills. I had to apologize to people a lot today; my Therapy game was on point. On turn two I Therapy him, blind hitting a Courser. His hand is Worm Harvest, Overgrown Tomb, Delta, Ghost Quarter. He spins around to make sure nobody is signalling me behind him, and then resumes playing lands and passing. I come to the conclusion on turn 4 that he's going to Worm Harvest on 5 and then untap into Ob Nix + landfall on 6, so when he Harvests on 5 as expected, I Therapy him calling Ob Nix and blind hit again, then untap into Slaughter Games on his Worm Harvest. He never recovers and I beat him to death just as the round enters time.

R2: Brian on Elves

As I see his name on the play list, I feel like I've played vs or seen his name before. My mind puts him on either Delver or Death and Taxes. I wish.

I don't have much to say about this match. Game one he t2 Glimpses off DRS + Quirion, draws like 6 or 7 cards because Birchlore + 1-drops is stupid, but eventually draws into ALL FOUR SYMBIOTES and has to stop. I get to Therapy him, calling Natural Order, and see verdant, forest, qurion, the other symbiotes (two were in play, didn't know about these two till therapy), and a visionary. I flashback to take the Visionary so he can't do bullshit. He untaps, draws Natural Order, and kills me.

Game two he makes some durdles on turn one....maybe on turn two as well? Either way, by the end of turn 3, he has a Progenitus in play and I just die. I don't recall if he NO'd on turn 2 or turn 3, either way I was super dead. I had a fringe possible out whereby I think I could've made 10 mana off Phyrexian Tower + Veteran (one had already been Towered earlier), and I had the Deed in play, but he had an Abrupt Decay for it on my endstep so it didn't matter anyway.

Welcome to why I loathe elves.

R3: Someone whose name I forgot to write down with RUG DELVER OMG <3

I didn't realize how much I missed playing against this deck until I played against this deck again.

Game one my hand is super weird -- it's 3x therapy, 3x lands, and Nissa. Therapy is a card I always want in my opening hand in multiples, so I wasn't complaining. I blind hit Brainstorm on turn one, and see Stifle, Forked Bolt, L. Bolt, 2 Goyfs, and a Strand. He plays a strand and passes, and then I obliterate his hand. I first take the Stifle with the swamp already in play, and then fetch for Bayou to take out his Goyfs. He draws another Goyf and plays it, but Deed wipes out his Goyf and Delver a turn or two later, after flashing back a Therapy to hit another Stifle (he revealed it off Delver). I eventually bond Rhino and Deadeye, and kill him.

Game two he has to mull to 5 vs my mull to 6, and we end up in a situation where he has Waste x2 + Volc vs my basics. I Therapy naming Goyf, hit 2, and then flashback to take out his 2x Mongoose that comprised the entire rest of his hand. He never really recovers, and I end the game at 22. He had to Rough/Tumble to wipe out my DRS x2 + Veteran x2 with a Meren in play. That did not end well for him.

R4: Adam with Enchantress

I've known Adam for a large number of years now -- he played at Jupiter back in the day and is usually playing some kind of sweet control/landstill/prison deck. I forgot that he was on Enchantress until he played a Wild Growth on turn 1. Game one is basically just me Deeding him repeatedly until he succumbs. He rebuilt 3-4 times, but I just kept sweeping him, Therapying him, and pressuring him with Rhino. Witness had a part to play in this; at one point I had to pay 6 mana to Deed for 2 because of Suppression Field.

Realistically, if I hadn't gone t1 Therapy (hit Argothian Enchantress blind) into t2 Explorer + Tower -> Jace TMS, I probably wouldn't have won this game. I had a super broken opener, though, and it carried me the rest of the way. I got to kill him through Solitary Confinement via Zenithing for Rhino to drain him out, though, which was sweet. Life loss and not damage ftw.

I leave the Rhinos in again here while bringing in Slaughter Games for his Emrakul, which I believe is his lone wincon. Rhinos stayed in because I never saw a hint of red for Blood Moon, and because the lifeloss trigger on them proved too relevant vs Solitary Confinement, which is his main way of locking me out.

Game two is a flurry of discard and removal. I get to Notion Thief 2x enchantress triggers, which is sweet; unfortunately they're off of a Journey to Nowhere that's exiling my Thief. Sadface. He gets Karmic Justice out, but is pretty low -- I can't beat that card, but soldier on anyway. He eventually lands Solitary with enchantresses out and I feel pretty dead, but he misread a card in his hand as an Enchantress's Presence when it's actually an Argothian, and that prevents him from keeping Solitary up, so he scoops to me a couple minutes before time hits. If that hadn't happened, we probably would've drawn the match -- I would've had a whole nother match to try to hit Slaughter, but then killing him before time runs out would've been hard.

R5: Someone whose name I can't read my own handwriting (Trevor?) with Grixis Delver

In which our hero finally comes to the realization that he's not giving this deck nearly enough credit.

I've been fairly consistently losing to Grixis Delver the last couple of months, and it's taken me until now to realize that it's a problem somewhere on my end. It's not them god drawing me or anything like that -- the games are frequently close, but I've been treating it like "just another delver deck," and playing vs it the same way I've been playing vs Delver for years...but that's not working. I'm not sure if it's the raw speed of the deck, how wide it goes, the Therapies out of the board, the fact that it plays Deathrite (but then why isn't bug delver a problem?), or what -- probably it's a combination of all of the above. Regardless, I intend on fixing that next month.

Anyway.

Game one is super tight. I get out a fast pair of Veterans which he absolutely refuses to swing into even as he grows a board of Young Peezy tokens, which gives me a ton of time. I engineered a board state whereby I resolve Con Sphinx, but it costs me both of my Veterans (one off Tower, and the other off Therapy flashback). He realizes that he's doomed if he keeps hanging back, so he starts swinging aggressively. I Zenith up a Tusk and play a Deathrite, but he has just enough to kill me with a Deathrite activation for exactsies after swinging on the following turn. If I'd had literally one more untap step, I would've been stabilized. It was that close.

Game two isn't really a match. I keep a slightly greedy hand and get appropriately punished for it. The hand was solid overall -- Veteran, two Strix, Witness, and Decay. The lands were Forest and Tropical. He Forces my turn one-on-the-play Vet, and plays a Deathrite. From there he goes into Wasteland + Young Peezy. I draw another Trop, but then my hand gets obliterated before my next draw step, which was a Misty Rainforest. At this point it doesn't matter, and I'm dead pretty quickly from there after another Force of Will on my Hail Mary deed.

R6: Keith with Imperial Painter

I was sitting next to him in R5, so I know what he's on and assume he knows the same of me.

Game one I nuke his hand with Therapy, but he has a Top in play and gets Grindstone out. His Spellskite protects his Grindstone from my Decay, but he pops Top into City of Traitors to slam Painter and activate before I can untap into Deed. Turn 4 kill if I recall correctly.

Game two he opens with Leyline of Sanctity, which obliterates my gameplan of 2x Therapy into Ashiok into Slaughter Games (with the lands to cast in my hand). He has the combo on turn 3.

//////
Okay, thoughts on the deck.
//////

-) It's sweet. The colors were only ever a problem for me once on the entire day, and that was mostly because I was an idiot and mis-managed something. Even when both the Slaughters and the Rhinos were in together, I never had problems casting anything. The worst thing that I noticed sometimes was that I could've used one more blue source in play occasionally, so I could've played and protected Deadeye Nav. Realistically -1 Trop +1 Sea should probably happen, as I noticed I was a hair short on black sometimes as well.

-) It has enough power to smash anything that's trying to control the game. Seriously, if the meta shifts to be more controlling in my area -- if people start playing Miracles and Shardless and Stoneblade again, I would play this version again so fast.

-) Rhino fixed the problems that I had with BUG as a whole, as expected. Suddenly I could actually kill people. Trample was relevant. Draining for 3 /life loss/ was relevant. The card was frankly more impressive in this version than it's ever been for me in my more traditional white builds.

-) Meren finally performed today, although several of my opponents couldn't manage to figure out what exactly she did or how she worked until she did things. Venser, on the other hand, was awful all day. It was only something I was happy to see once -- the rest of the time, it just didn't do anything. This may be a side-effect of the meta being super fast at the moment, but he's being cut regardless.

-) Ashiok and Nightmare were basically never drawn. I got Ashiok out vs BGu Ob Nix.dec in round one and it got immediately Pulsed, which is fine. I also played it vs Elves and took one of his Visionaries that I later used to try to dig for an out to Progenitus, so that was kind of cool I guess. I only ever saw Nightmare once on the day, and I put it back on a Jacestorm and shuffled it away because enchantress in game one and I just wanted to draw a million Pernicious Deeds.

-) Sphinx overperformed as it always does. Deadeye only got played once, vs RUG Delver, but it did win that game. I noticed that I was having issues finding my bombs, and wonder if a Fierce Empath may actually just be required here, as much as I hate that idea.

-) The metagame was way too quick for Painful Truths. My roommate was playing Scape (2-3-d; hadn't played the deck in >1 year and literally threw a match away in r2, kind of tilted from there) and noticed the same problem -- he never had a chance to draw cards because he was too busy trying to avoid dying. I've gained a level of respect for casting that card, but the metagame at Mythic, at least, is just wrong for it. I wish I could get away with it.

-) Jace was solid but unimpressive, which has basically always been my impression of Jace in Nic Fit. He's a solid card flow bot, but rarely does anything other than be a Leyline of Brainstorm.

-) I really missed having a 2-drop ramp bro to Zenith for. I wanted it multiple times on the day, and it was never there.

////
To sum:
////

-1 Trop
+1 Sea

-1 Venser
+1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

-1 Ashiok
-2 Painful Truths
+3 Brainstorm

-1 Thragtusk
+1 Maelstrom Pulse

-1 Strix
+1 Fierce Empath??? :/
***
disclaimer: not entirely sure about this one still. I abhor Empath in Nic Fit anymore, but since this version gets the two LITERALLY STRONGEST 6-drops any Nic Fit can play, it might actually be worth it.

-sb
+sb
***
Slaughters and Taiga is fine. The rest is up for debate and needs to be re-thought somewhat. The Notion Thief probably stays in, though, as does the Glen Elendra.

For those keeping track, this puts us here:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Notion Thief
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
9 other cards

-------------------------

I doubt I'll play this version again next month, but that's almost entirely because of metagame concerns more than anything else. This is definitely something I see myself playing again, and I recommend its adoption if anyone wants to also work on it.

My goal for next month is probably to play a more traditional white version with 3x Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard. I need to be able to be faster and make more mana quicker to deal with Grixis Delver, I think. It's possible that a grindier, more removal-heavy approach is fine -- but that almost requires playing Painful Truths in order to catch up on cards, and I'm far from convinced that I'm going to maindeck that card next month. Sideboard, maybe sure. Maindeck? Ehhhhhh scared. Mostly I just want to resolve turn 2 Baneslayers and make Delver & Friends collectively cry.

We'll see where I end up -- I've got some time to think about it. For now, I'm honestly quite pleased with how this experiment turned out.

./././
PS
./././

Did something happen to the post counters on Source? Pretty sure I've got way more than 400-some posts.

[jbone2016]

A Very unorganized list

Main:
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thragtusk
2 Siege Rhino
3 Forest
2 Badlands
3 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Primeval Titan
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Painful Truths
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze

Board
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 From the Ashes
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 thrun, the Last Troll

[Bobmans]

O man, my head is exploding. NicFit goodstuff is all over the place.

ScapeWish, i am currently toying with an idea that has a different approach on the creature base. When i am ready to post a list i will, but the new block presents a solid option to use landfall based creatures that can aggro pretty hard and gives another angle to close out games. Some kind of inevitability.

Arianrhod, Thank you for that report, always a nice read. Still not to convinced about warping BUG into a 5c monster. That Deadeye Navigator tech is pretty sweet. Isn't it an option to stick to BUG color's and splash a Colorless in there with 1 basic Wastes or so? Though-Knot Seer bouncing looks sweet, combined with ConSphinx it becomes really sic. Edit: the Deaeye+Thought-knot starts to get more interesting the more i think about it. If you end of opponents draw step activate the Deadeye ability on Thought-Knot, your opponent first draws his 2nd card and then you get to exile one.
Or less interesting but optional, Void Grafter. Or Empath into Worldbreaker/Endbringer.

JBone, that list is exactly what to make of it when i was talking Rhino's into JunD. You pack nearly everything you'd want to see in such a list, but something feels off. Only 3 Veteran and 1 DRS in a 4 color list. How consistently where you able to develop your manabase? And sorted the list, it was unbearable.



Main 61:
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Painful Truths

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run

3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

Board
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 From the Ashes
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 thrun, the Last Troll

[Ralf]

Hello, Nic Fitters,

This is where I am right now on Scapeshift.
I knew Painful Truth could successfully be included in a Jund Fit list and I can tell that, from all the tests I've run during Christmas break, it is really working well.

MD is 60 cards so that you could add 1 meta slot if you want.
The list is featuring only 10 mountains for only 1 Scape MD. During our tests, those choices never came up as an issue either to find a scape or to have enough mountains left for a straight kill.

However, having access to 12 black sources was very handy; mulligan wise & color wise !

SB still needs some "fine tuning" but I guess time will help us to find a good balance.

Here is the list, and I hope you will enjoy it as much as we do:


Valakut Truth by Ralf

Lands

2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures

1 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
2 Thragtusk
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Veteran Explorer

Artifacts

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments

3 Pernicious Deed

Sorceries

1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Painful Truths
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard

1 Dryad Militant
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Innocent Blood
3 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction

Have fun !

[Arianrhod]

@Ralf: that Scapewish list hurts itself a LOT. My roommate was dying to Grixis Delver with the same creature lifegain suite, no maindeck Thoughtseizes, and only 2 maindeck Truths.

No matter how much I want to play with Painful Truths in legacy, I don't think that the format is right for it. At least, not in my area. Games are too fast.

Why the 2nd Stomping Ground over the 4th Taiga? Last minute drop of the 4th Taiga, I'm guessing?

Only one maindeck Scapeshift surprises me. I know the Truths help you dig and all, but I've always found 2 main / 1 side for "6 total copies" thanks to Wish to be a happy balance. Relying on Wish is dangerous, since it gets hit by Spell Snare (not very popular at the moment, I know), Counterbalance more frequently, and Hydroblast/BEB.

I still wish Dryad Militant didn't hose your Cabal Therapies. I want that card to be one-sided so badly :(

-----------------------------

Since I found out that there's a "sixth color" now, I've been toying with the idea of a BGC version of the deck. The biggest draw immediately was Kozilek 2.0, obviously -- giving Nic Fit a draw 7 and counter-control is pretty unreasonable. I didn't really give it too much thought until the full set spoiler was out.

The two reasons to play a BGC version are easily Matter Reshaper and Warping Wail. Both of these cards are ramp that offer additional utility:

-) Matter Reshaper is a 3/2 for 3, which is a decent rate, and it's Nissa-style card advantage. It either puts the top card of your deck (which we can cheat with Top) into play when it dies (which we run sac outlets already anyway), or you just flat draw the card. It's very noteworthy that Reshaper lets you put lands into play when it dies.

-) Warping Wail is a 2-mana ramp spell (from 2->4, which is a strong jump); it'll exile Young Peezy, SFM, DRS, unflipped Delvers, Cliques, and some other random garbage; and it'll counter a sorcery -- Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Show and Tell, Green Sun, Natural Order (seeing a theme here?), Painful Truths, Terminus/Entreat, etc. This card does a LOT OF THINGS.

Thought-Knot is decent. It's got a good cip trigger and a chunky body. Unfortunately they get the card when it leaves play, not just when it dies, so StP is still live, as is Jace bouncing it. While the card is certainly reasonable and I'm fine including it, it's not a reason to play the deck.

Bearer of Silence is close to being very good, but I think that not being able to block unfortunately removes it from the discussion.

Endbringer and Worldbreaker aren't even good enough, I don't think. I'd sooner play a Wurmcoil over either of them.

Anyway, I finally started tinkering with my first look at a BGC list this morning, and I'll present that now:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Eternal Witness
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Warping Wail
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Harmonize

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

3 Sensei's Divining Top

5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of ugin

//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize


Obviously this is rough and needs some testing and tuning. I think that it's a reasonable place to look for a deck, though. The defining cards in this deck are going to be /very/ good, it's just a matter of finding the correct shell for them, I think.

Some notes:

-) I'm tired of not having a Sakura-Tribe in my deck.

-) 4-ofs in Nic Fit are withheld for all-star engine pieces: traditionally Vet, Therapy, and sometimes Zenith are all we ever run as 4-ofs. Matter Reshaper can be added to that list. Maybe my opinion will lessen once I actually play with the card, but the more I look at it, the more I think that that card is completely unreasonable. We're talking uncounterable Deeds here, people.

-) I think that 2 maindeck Thought-Knots with another in the board is probably the correct split for TKS if you want to run him. He's not 3-of Siege Rhino territory good, but he's still something that you can't Zenith for and that you generally want to see one of every game. Our default for that type of card is a 2-of (see also Baneslayer).

-) Meren/Nightmare with Reshaper is going to be obnoxious and wonderful.

-) Harmonize because C doesn't count for Painful Truths. I'm of the opinion that we've all been critically undervaluing how strong card draw is in Nic Fit for a long time now, and Truths has shown us how wrong we were. I know I've personally been content to sit on my virtual ca, x-for-ones, and Tops and be happy with that. Actually having a couple Ancestral Recalls in the deck adds several dimensions to the archetype, and is something I'm interested in moving forward (whether that's Truths or another option is up for debate).

-) 2 maindeck Deluge, no maindeck spot removal. I'm starting to lean that 3 Deed 2 Deluge is a fine removal suite maindeck. Maybe a Pulse or Vindicate in some versions would be fine just as an additional catch-all, but I think that maindecking some Deluges is actually really good right now. Young Pyro is very obnoxious and I'm tired of losing to it. If that means I need some extra sweepers, so be it. Also, FUCK ELVES.

-) Ob Nix is going to get a trial run in the main. The dream scenario is he takes out a Goyf and then draws a couple cards, while alternatively drawing a million cards until ult vs Miracles.

-) Primeval -> posts -> space monsters. I want to run that Kozilek, which means I need nuclear-level mana production. Reshapers should help a lot, but if I want to get to Kozilek, I need Primeval Titan. Since we're two real colors, there's a bunch of room in the mana base to work with, and I want to try out a modified cloudpost engine. It gives us some extra life gain and some extra mana production. Also, even if you cast Primeval with 0 posts in play, tutoring for 2x cloudpost off his trigger gets you to Kozilek next turn. It's possible that that's good enough, but at the point at which I'm even starting down this road, I'd like the ability to go full nuclear with Eye and Emrakul.

-) On the subject of Eye, Eye CURRENTLY makes Reshaper cost C and TKS cost 1C, which is already good for us. If Eye is errata'd to reduce the costs of colorless Eldrazi by CC instead, Eye becomes very, very good in this deck, and not just pretty alright.

-) Sideboard is basically just an amalgam of Delver and combo hate. This deck inherits enough from our 12post brethren that Miracles is probably? super easy? And even then, it's not like there aren't cards to bring in vs Miracles -- Carpets, Pulse, Decay, Grips.

-) Being straight GB allows for room for all the sweet GB sideboard options, like Disfigure and Krosan Grip, that we rarely get to play in tricolor lists. KGrip is probably very important with the cloudpost engine, since it gives us a way of cleanly dealing with Blood Moon.

Definitely still just a concept -- not saying this is the next great thing, but I wanted to point out that this type of deck could exist now moving forward and offer a possible sketch of it.

I'm going to work on developing it a bit and do some testing, should be able to report back in a couple days with a better idea of it.

[Fatal]

@Arianrhod It's already done and it was done in 2014 http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post you should really look there.

I found that new Eldrazi's are just cute nothing more let me describe why I think they aren't so useful in Nic Fit builds:

Thought-Knot Seer - Clique like exile effect. Bigger body (4/4 - still not enough vs most goyfs), but it is missing the two biggest things which makes Clique good - Flash and Flying, without it we just have medicore creature which will cycle card. Look from build which Nic feat 8post want to achieve - it doesn't ramp, it's expensive (4 mana is quite a lot). I still use Solemn since: it ramp, which gives me next turn titan, and also cantrip when dies. Thought-Knot Seer looks probably better in some faster Eldrazi Aggro which probably will be some stompy deck with Trinisphere/Chalice, but even there for 4 mana we have 4/4 flying, haste dragons which have build in protection white..

Matter Reshaper - This one looks quite decent also, but to gain advantage from it - it have to die like Veteran. With again body 3/2 it will die from most ground threads (look on Thalia..). But the price from it's dead isn't so big - you gain CA with build-in development if drawn card is cmc 3. It's not bad really - but it doesn't help in build, I rather use Wood Elves which trigger etb (so almost always, stifle happens) stabilize mana ad hoc so needed to win. Similar like upper Seer it's rather Aggro with build in conditional CA (Swords to Plowshares really exist..).

Warping Wail - This card is probably best it is: removal / permission / one shot ramp and all of this for 1C - I really like it. Not sure how many should be on MD/SB since I found there aren't too many cards which I wanted to counter. Terminus ? Isnt a problem, S&T - yes - that's for sure but since S&T started again playing with sneak - I think Sneak is much more dengerous - specially If you running 4 Titans + MD Karakas. EtA from miracles - Pernicious Deed most time waiting for them. ANT - yes for sure, same like other things like Hymn to Tourach and other discard spells. In summary I still don't know how good is it vs meta, but for sure some of them will find place in 75.

In this build you need totally different SB Burn and Elves will be very bad Matchups without dedicated sb plan it will always be a lose. Also no cheap spot removal mean really hard times vs Tempo like turn 1 delver which flips - I don't like it. Vs Elves you can easy use Glacial Chasm and some Crop Rotation which are great as:
- Gy hate (bojuka)
- Karakas finder
- Mana Boost - like dark ritual connected with Veteran - just Tower finder
- Wastelands hate
- Chasm vs Burn Price of Progress or Elves final strike.

But this is just my opinion - from Nic feat 8post build. I think new Eldrazies will find spots for sure but in rather Aggro with good CA plan deck.

[Ralf]

@Ralf: that Scapewish list hurts itself a LOT. My roommate was dying to Grixis Delver with the same creature lifegain suite, no maindeck Thoughtseizes, and only 2 maindeck Truths.

No matter how much I want to play with Painful Truths in legacy, I don't think that the format is right for it. At least, not in my area. Games are too fast.

Why the 2nd Stomping Ground over the 4th Taiga? Last minute drop of the 4th Taiga, I'm guessing?

Only one maindeck Scapeshift surprises me. I know the Truths help you dig and all, but I've always found 2 main / 1 side for "6 total copies" thanks to Wish to be a happy balance. Relying on Wish is dangerous, since it gets hit by Spell Snare (not very popular at the moment, I know), Counterbalance more frequently, and Hydroblast/BEB.

I still wish Dryad Militant didn't hose your Cabal Therapies. I want that card to be one-sided so badly :(


If your roommate is still involved in Scape, give the list a go :)

I can understand your concerns, right now. Grixis Delver is definitely not an easy MU.
However, during our testing, the list I have provided proved to show enough velocity to compete with Grixis Delver.

Is it because of the 2 MD TS?
Is it because of the 3rd Painful Truth ?
Is it because of Ooze ?
Is it because of the Surgical + Militant post SB?

To be perfectly honest, I dunno. The games were an uphill battle. You will lose quite a lot and you will win quite a lot as well.
This is definitely a strange MU that can be very easy to very hard.

I'd like to point out that a starting hand with: TS + CT + Veteran + Painful is something nobody should scorn.
And once you get a taste of that velocity, it is very hard to go back...

Furthermore, as I aforementioned, the list provided is only 60 cards. This gives you the opportunity to hedge a bit more against your meta.
If you really fear Grixis Delver, you can add another creature with a gain "some life" ability:
- Courser
- Baloth
- Kitchen Finks

Etc...

Edit: About Stomping Grounds, as I have cut back on a red source, I fear we wouldn't be able to use scape postboard if a taiga gets hit by a surgical effect. This might never occur but well, I 'm the guy to who weird things happen all the times... Playing 4 taiga is definitely better if you don't care about this extra hedge !

[jbone2016]

O man, my head is exploding. NicFit goodstuff is all over the place.

ScapeWish, i am currently toying with an idea that has a different approach on the creature base. When i am ready to post a list i will, but the new block presents a solid option to use landfall based creatures that can aggro pretty hard and gives another angle to close out games. Some kind of inevitability.

Arianrhod, Thank you for that report, always a nice read. Still not to convinced about warping BUG into a 5c monster. That Deadeye Navigator tech is pretty sweet. Isn't it an option to stick to BUG color's and splash a Colorless in there with 1 basic Wastes or so? Though-Knot Seer bouncing looks sweet, combined with ConSphinx it becomes really sic. Edit: the Deaeye+Thought-knot starts to get more interesting the more i think about it. If you end of opponents draw step activate the Deadeye ability on Thought-Knot, your opponent first draws his 2nd card and then you get to exile one.
Or less interesting but optional, Void Grafter. Or Empath into Worldbreaker/Endbringer.

JBone, that list is exactly what to make of it when i was talking Rhino's into JunD. You pack nearly everything you'd want to see in such a list, but something feels off. Only 3 Veteran and 1 DRS in a 4 color list. How consistently where you able to develop your manabase? And sorted the list, it was unbearable.

I ended up 3-3. Winning my first 3, then losing my last 3.

Beat Grixis Delver in
Beat D + T (for once) in 3. Was at under 5 life with the games I won.
Beat Mud in 2. From the Ashes blowout was real here.
Lost to Shardless Bug in 2. (double hymn one game really hurt)
Lost to Omni Tell in 2.
Lost to Storm in 3.

The mana has honestly been fine. Pulse and command have been lackluster (probably to just one copy each). Same with PrimeTime. I missed my Baloth in the main vs BUG.
Trying to cheat Teeg in the main seems greedy. I still want to fit a dualcaster mage in there somewhere. Or a 3rd Blast?

[Arianrhod]

Tested with the BGC version vs Grixis Delver in four game-ones today, just to see how it would go. Grixis won 0 games, although two were particularly close.

Warping Wail is an all-star card, and is definitely a reason to work on a version like this.

Matter Reshaper was also quite excellent -- it put an uncounterable Deed into play once and a Top another. Its other hits ranged from Sakura-Tribe to Eye of Ugin. I think the onoly card I drew off of it vs put into play was one game I drew a Zenith off of it.

Thought-Knot was mostly useful as a 4/4 beatstick. The first game I towered it out on turn 2, which felt pretty disgusting. Otherwise, though, it definitely felt lackluster -- which, this isn't really a good matchup for the card as a whole, so, that's not surprising. I need to evaluate it vs other matchups, but it's definitely a card I've got my eye on to take out.

Glimmerpost's lifegain was surprisingly strong.

5 maindeck sweepers backed up with some spot removal felt pretty solid.

Harmonize didn't feel that good -- 4 mana was too much. Going to test Night's Whisper and Read the Bones in those slots as well to try to find out how much the life loss vs mana spent actually influences things.

Not sure how necessary Emrakul is, really. Having the -ability- to go nuclear if the game goes grindy was nice, but she only came up once in four games. Not sure, going to keep an eye on her package as well as I move forward with testing.

At this point I know I want a 4th copy of Warping Wail, and I do have the feeling that there's a deck here somewhere. I'll keep rummaging around and report back as I have more thoughts/findings.

[Echelon]

3-3-drop at Mythic;

...

-) Sphinx overperformed as it always does. Deadeye only got played once, vs RUG Delver, but it did win that game. I noticed that I was having issues finding my bombs, and wonder if a Fierce Empath may actually just be required here, as much as I hate that idea.

-) The metagame was way too quick for Painful Truths. My roommate was playing Scape (2-3-d; hadn't played the deck in >1 year and literally threw a match away in r2, kind of tilted from there) and noticed the same problem -- he never had a chance to draw cards because he was too busy trying to avoid dying. I've gained a level of respect for casting that card, but the metagame at Mythic, at least, is just wrong for it. I wish I could get away with it.

...


Don't be scared to run Empath. It offers you a lot of utility (and replaces itself, which is never a bad thing). I would also include a Tasigur/Gurmag Angler when running Empath though. Being able to churn out a fatty on the same turn you cast Empath can be a lifesaver (and you can even flashback a Therapy with Empath to clear the way for that freshly tutored Delve-creature without it actually costing anything, since Empath'll replace the now exiled Therapy). Topdecking an Empath lategame can be a complete backbreaker for your opponent, especially in the blue oriented Nic Fit lists, since those put a lot less pressure on your opponent.

On Painful Truths: It's best suited for the BGW build. It has a lot of space for a big lifegain suite. I myself run 2/3 DRS, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Courser of Kruphix, 4 Siege Rhino (or 3 if you want to include a Thragtusk as lifegaining 5-drop) and a Dragonlord Dromoka. Whatever X I GSZ for, I can find something that gains me life.

[Arianrhod]

Something I just realized as a quick bedtime thought to jot down: Warping Wail is also -VERY- good against us. It's another way to exile Explorer, and it counters Green Sun, which is one of our better cards depending on version. Scapewish additionally gets Burning Wish and Scapeshift hit, and all versions get hit on card draw and utility kill spells (Pulse/Vindicate/CJ). Deluge, Perish, Virtue's Ruin, and Massacre are all commonly played (by us) sideboard options that also get hit by Wail.

Just something to keep in mind as the format develops -- if more decks start experimenting with Wail, we could very easily get some splash hate. Or, not necessarily hate, but rather a card that's actually more effective than your average legacy card against us. I think Death and Taxes is probably the chief threat for this at the moment, although realistically if DnT is taking a turn to play Wail rather than pressuring us somehow, we're probably fine with it.

[Echelon]

If that actually starts to happen that just means Cabal Therapy retains a lot more value in the lategame.

Strip that hand before Zenithing, man!

Also, I don't think D&T has the design room to run 12-14 C-producing lands. Heck, how many non-MUD/Turbo Eldrazi/12-post decks do..?

[Bobmans]

If that actually starts to happen that just means Cabal Therapy retains a lot more value in the lategame.

Strip that hand before Zenithing, man!

Also, I don't think D&T has the design room to run 12-14 C-producing lands. Heck, how many non-MUD/Turbo Eldrazi/12-post decks do..?
On the topic of Therapy, if WW shenanigans (or StP for that matter) are expected, play it safe. T1 Therapy, into T2 Veteran, hold prio, flash Therapy should dodge removal on your explorer.

[Echelon]

On the topic of Therapy, if WW shenanigans (or StP for that matter) are expected, play it safe. T1 Therapy, into T2 Veteran, hold prio, flash Therapy should dodge removal on your explorer.

I already dubbed that line of play "Fuck you Daze, fuck you Plow" (or FyDFyP for short) a couple of pages back!

When facing blue or white -> Fydfyp!

[Bobmans]

I already dubbed that line of play "Fuck you Daze, fuck you Plow" (or FyDFyP for short) a couple of pages back!

When facing blue or white -> Fydfyp!
Yes, you did. And now it even becomes more relevant.

[Echelon]

Yes, you did. And now it even becomes more relevant.

FydFyp goes global! The next time I get to write a tournament report it's going in there. Lol. Enter Fydfyp into Rhino to describe turns 1-3!

[Bobmans]

I ended up 3-3. Winning my first 3, then losing my last 3.

Beat Grixis Delver in
Beat D + T (for once) in 3. Was at under 5 life with the games I won.
Beat Mud in 2. From the Ashes blowout was real here.
Lost to Shardless Bug in 2. (double hymn one game really hurt)
Lost to Omni Tell in 2.
Lost to Storm in 3.

The mana has honestly been fine. Pulse and command have been lackluster (probably to just one copy each). Same with PrimeTime. I missed my Baloth in the main vs BUG.
Trying to cheat Teeg in the main seems greedy. I still want to fit a dualcaster mage in there somewhere. Or a 3rd Blast?

Isn't DCM just cute? What are the odds your actually going to copy something good with it?
Losing to Shardless seems horrible.
Kommand is awesome vs DnT. Also it is nice vs MUD. Pulse on the other hand is solid vs Grixis and Shardless. Personally i am not sure which one i would prefer. Often i just go with Pulse since it is more versatile (or commenly used). Kommand is a sideboard card for me, but i am looking for reasons to replace the MD pulse with it...
Speaking of Baloth, i am having this (somewhat) wild idea about the Jund creatures. Offcourse you meant Obstinate Baloth, but i have been playing with Rampaging Baloths with some succes. Now, since Arianrhod is promoting Nissa, Vastwood Seer, with the printing of Mina and Denn, Wildborn and Embodiment of Insight i have been toying with the idea of going on with including Courser of Kruphix and (stealing the idea of Rampaging Baloths) replacing the 6 drop with a 7 drop Omnath, Locus of Rage. This is pulling pretty heavy on the manabase, but there are some wicked plays between all those cards. Obviously Primeval Titan also becomes stronger here. But where lays the balance... Is a control based JUND list the right list for all those creatures, or do i have to look more to ScapeWish?

[Echelon]

Isn't the problem with that idea that by the time you're able to actually drop it, you've already used most of your landdrops? And Titania, Protector of Argoth would give you almost the same utility (more or less, work with me here) @5 mana rather than 7.

Also, shouldn't you aim to kill your opponent wel before Omnath would hit the field..?

If you want to go for the long game you're probably better off with the BGW build that runs Meren and Karador. That build inevitably locks up the game by recurring Pernicious Deed/PtE every single turn if your opponent hasn't succumbed to Rhino beats yet.

[rubblekill]

I will be that guy now. What is going on with all these 6-7 cmc creatures that have been floating around lately in this thread? I'd like to remember that one of the best creatures we can play (if not the Very best, aka Sigarda) is only 5cmc. And I find that 6 mana (to gsz for her) is pushing it already mana cost wise. I know you all are testing jund right now, but this is just a kind reminder to bring you folks back to the earth!

[Echelon]

I will be that guy now. What is going on with all these 6-7 cmc creatures that have been floating around lately in this thread? I'd like to remember that one of the best creatures we can play (if not the Very best, aka Sigarda) is only 5cmc. And I find that 6 mana (to gsz for her) is pushing it already mana cost wise. I know you all are testing jund right now, but this is just a kind reminder to bring you folks back to the earth!

You're so not The Guy. The Guy would be someone displaying Lemnearean vehemence concerning the perceived current display of stupidity.

Also, you'd have to do better than "Meh, it isn't Sigarda". Especially when the discussion is revolving around a non-Junk build.

[rubblekill]

You're so not The Guy. The Guy would be someone displaying Lemnearean vehemence concerning the perceived current display of stupidity.

Also, you'd have to do better than "Meh, it isn't Sigarda". Especially when the discussion is revolving around a non-Junk build.
I'm at work and on my phone so I can't write an essay. Your attitude seems funny as always, I see.

I simply think we are being too cute at the moment with all these weird creatures. Speaking of Sigarda, I have just compared mana cost to power ratio and I find that, in the general nic fit archetype, we can't do better than she already does. If the goal of this thread is to develop a somewhat competitive deck, I personally think that we are going in the wrong direction. No hard feelings!

[Echelon]

I'm at work and on my phone so I can't write an essay. Your attitude seems funny as always, I see.

I simply think we are being too cute at the moment with all these weird creatures. Speaking of Sigarda, I have just compared mana cost to power ratio and I find that, in the general nic fit archetype, we can't do better than she already does. If the goal of this thread is to develop a somewhat competitive deck, I personally think that we are going in the wrong direction. No hard feelings!

I'm glad you understand it for what it is :smile:.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your assessment and from what I've witnessed I'm under the impression that the BGW build is the strongest one out there at the moment. It simply runs the most efficient cards with the best cost to power ratio.

That being said, when discussing a different build I'm convinced one should argue from that particular context. If you don't, "Why don't you run Brainstorm?" would be a perfectly valid point when discussing the BGW build.

There's also a difference between "Meh, it's cute" and "Meh, it's cute b/c reasons. Card X does nearly the same for less mana, why wouldn't you run that?".

[Bobmans]

Isn't the problem with that idea that by the time you're able to actually drop it, you've already used most of your landdrops? And Titania, Protector of Argoth would give you almost the same utility (more or less, work with me here) @5 mana rather than 7.

Also, shouldn't you aim to kill your opponent wel before Omnath would hit the field..?

If you want to go for the long game you're probably better off with the BGW build that runs Meren and Karador. That build inevitably locks up the game by recurring Pernicious Deed/PtE every single turn if your opponent hasn't succumbed to Rhino beats yet.

I actually overlooked Titania.. But i think the synergy between Mina and Denn and Embodiment of Insight might be higher. Lands in play aren't going anywhere near the graveyard without a irreversible sac outlet. Bouncing lands to replay them into becoming hasted vigilance attackers (with Insight) looks more solid. Combine this bouncing with Omnath and your going complete bananas here. Also at this point a Pernicious Deed set of at 0 will most likely kill your opponent. Titania also makes Elementals which feed Omnath, but i will have to actually test several configuration to see how (and if) it will actually work.

You are probably right about killing your opponent before you hit the critical mass of 7+ mana, but Omnath looks to be a game sealer which is actually missing in Primeval Titan. For a long while i have been looking for a substitute and Rampaging Baloth was the best (better) alternative (GSZ'ble). Tweaking the Jund list towards Stormbreath Dragon already asked a lot of dedication towards the manabase and does not leave many room for creativity. I was looking at Mina and Denn and was wondering how i could fit the card into Jund (and if it would be a good fit). In my signature list replacing 1 Huntmaster of Mina and Denn is an obvious one. But also i want to try Nissa, without having to cut Courser. So this trio looks to be clunky at first hand, but might actually slingshot the game going over the top in no time. With that said, card as Omnath to close the deal don't look so unrealistic anymore to me. I believe these cards have a potential. It might miss the critical mass to be Legacy worthy or not, but actual testing must be conclusive to this. Currently i shifted away from NicFit as my main competitive deck and am toying around with it as my pet deck. JUND has always been my favorite, despite having some great tools in both Junk and BUG i just want to focus on JUND. So, in all new card excitement i will test all this madness and keep you informed if interested.

[rubblekill]

I'm glad you understand it for what it is :smile:.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your assessment and from what I've witnessed I'm under the impression that the BGW build is the strongest one out there at the moment. It simply runs the most efficient cards with the best cost to power ratio.

That being said, when discussing a different build I'm convinced one should argue from that particular context. If you don't, "Why don't you run Brainstorm?" would be a perfectly valid point when discussing the BGW build.

There's also a difference between "Meh, it's cute" and "Meh, it's cute b/c reasons. Card X does nearly the same for less mana, why wouldn't you run that?".

Because otherwise I'd be repeating the things I have always been saying: mana efficiency - resiliency of our threats. I feel that the latest lists I have been reading here are going in the opposite direction but that's just my personal opinion.

[Bobmans]

Because otherwise I'd be repeating the things I have always been saying: mana efficiency - resiliency of our threats. I feel that the latest lists I have been reading here are going in the opposite direction but that's just my personal opinion.

Everybody knows mana effiency, resilience of threats, etc etc. But that is just soo boring, nothing exciting comes from that. If there is place for creativity, it is here. And to be creative, one should be looking out of the box.

[Echelon]

Because otherwise I'd be repeating the things I have always been saying: mana efficiency - resiliency of our threats. I feel that the latest lists I have been reading here are going in the opposite direction but that's just my personal opinion.

A lot of the discussion here will involve repeating the same things over and over again (probably at least once per page). Be glad this isn't the Elves! board. There, every suggestion (rightfully) gets met with "Does it kill quicker than Craterhoof Behemoth?" or, if it's a card that costs 3+ mana "Does it let you win on the spot more efficiently/easily than Natural Order does?". Heck, why do you think that board is so quiet? Lol.

It's important to keep asking those questions/repeating those things, otherwise we might end up with a 5 colour Elder Dragon Fit deck b/c it's so neat. Or something silly like that.

@Bobmans: Good to know you're a fan of Garfunkel and Oates' Loophole.

[Bobmans]

@Bobmans: Good to know you're a fan of Garfunkel and Oates' Loophole.

Lol, nah i dont do anal.

Tweaking a list to be as competitive as possible is something else as exploring the unexplored. But somewhere a line have to be drawn and saying, okay this is nice and all, but it ain't gonna work. But if you limit yourself by shooting off an idea before you've even given it a chance then that is a waste.

[Echelon]

Lol, nah i dont do anal.

I was referring to the (last) part about chastity belts having locks hence the need to think outside the box, without the intended pun. Butt... that kinda requires a somewhat too... intimate... knowledge of the song, I guess. I'm not all that interested in what you do or not do with your ass, lol. Thanks for that bit of enlightenment, though.

[Bobmans]

Ok, in all seriousness, i just played one match against BUG Delver (Hymn version) with a list including all those weird creatures. No SB. Went 2-0.

Game 1 was pretty crazy, i do some Therapy+Explorer (Missing FoW and hitting Liliana) action while holding a Omnath and have a SDT out. T4 i land Nissa and drop the Forest triggering the Nissa flip. -2 the ability and have a 4/4 creature to block a 5/6 Goyf. Next turn i land the Omnath and drop a fetchland which i break to get a dual. 2 5/5 tokens land. His turn i block his goyf (yes, he attacks) and 1 token dies. Bolt to the head. From there he can't recover and it finishes really fast between Omnath, Nissa +1 and SDT.

Game 2 was more grindy. He wastes my Bayou after i play Veteran Explorer and only have a Mountain. The dude attacks with Goyf for me so block with the explorer (jeej). I land Nissa to get another forest. and i land a SDT. He Decay's my Nissa and attacks face with 4/5 Goyf. he lands 2 Delvers and a DRS. I find Grove and a Punishing Fire. Slowly i am eating his board while he fails to flip the Delvers. Mina and Denn show up, but other then a 4/4 body it is nothing fancy. I then play Witness on Nissa. Eventually i land a Embodiment of Insight and play the Nissa. I then play a fetch to flip the Nissa and +1 for more lands (after SDT reveals another land). I fetch for a Badlands and the leaves me with 3 hasted 3/3 lands (one of them a Badlands ^_^) + Mina and Denn ftw. He gets another turn, but that couldn't have possibly done anything.

Ok so, the synergy between the cards is outrageous. But one match is way to soon to tell anything.
List for reference:


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Embodiment of Insight
1 Omnath, Locus of Rage

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire

[Warden]

@Arianrhod: Sorry to hear things didn't pan out at Mythic. My gut feeling about Truths (slow and incorrect for Mythic) and Ashiok appear to be true.

@Wastes/Colorless-Diamond Mana: I'm assuming this mana is its own thing (ie; this is the fabled "purple" finally being printed). I can't pay G or B in place of the diamond mana, correct?
Likewise, are older cards (let's say Wasteland and Rishadan Port) being errata'ed to now print diamond-colorless or will they continue to make generic [1] colorless? I'm not really in the loop with all this stuff except that there is a new archetype of basic lands.

Since I found out that there's a "sixth color" now, I've been toying with the idea of a BGC version of the deck. The biggest draw immediately was Kozilek 2.0, obviously -- giving Nic Fit a draw 7 and counter-control is pretty unreasonable. I didn't really give it too much thought until the full set spoiler was out.

@New cards:
Warping Wail --> http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/81/775/200/283/635876880369637047.png
I like this card. It will likely see legacy play, but its popularity is meta-dependent. As others have said, opponents will likely use this against Nic Fit.
The issue for DnT including this card is finding adequate space in their 60. DnT has also shifted more towards its "tax" side (Thalia + Pegasus), so the prospect of a 3 or 4 mana removal/counterspell isn't so easy. That's mana usually spent on Rishadan-ing their opponents or simply churning out guys when Vial can't. No sure if Maverick or Delver will run this thing.

Mina and Denn, Wildborn ---> http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/81/758/200/283/635876703500650827.png
Can't help but think Aggro Loam, Maverick (Punishing/Naya/4C), and Jund want this more than Nic Fit. Recurring and playing multiple Wastelands per turn will be a thing. Crazy synergy with cards in those decks (KotR, Liliana, Courser, Loam, etc). The card itself is good, but Nic Fit would need to change its composition to include this card. That may be asking for too much.

I think everything else in the set is "okay". I'm not impressed with Matter Reshaper because it's conditional at best. If you're looking forward to establishing small combos/best-case-scenarios, you're better off running Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder for infinite life/growth of creatures. I think Kozilek's Return may make it into the format because it's a colorless pyroclasm.


Don't be scared to run Empath. It offers you a lot of utility (and replaces itself, which is never a bad thing). I would also include a Tasigur/Gurmag Angler when running Empath though. Being able to churn out a fatty on the same turn you cast Empath can be a lifesaver (and you can even flashback a Therapy with Empath to clear the way for that freshly tutored Delve-creature without it actually costing anything, since Empath'll replace the now exiled Therapy). Topdecking an Empath lategame can be a complete backbreaker for your opponent, especially in the blue oriented Nic Fit lists, since those put a lot less pressure on your opponent.

On Painful Truths: It's best suited for the BGW build. It has a lot of space for a big lifegain suite. I myself run 2/3 DRS, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Courser of Kruphix, 4 Siege Rhino (or 3 if you want to include a Thragtusk as lifegaining 5-drop) and a Dragonlord Dromoka. Whatever X I GSZ for, I can find something that gains me life.

I like Empath and the creatures you mention. However, I disagree with Truths. I think the card is too slow (Mythic's meta = lots of fast decks -- dominated by quality Delver pilots). I already run Tasigur. I like the idea of Empath ---> Tasigur or Dragonlord Dromoka (a card I've been keeping an eye on). Maybe Karador fits into this lineup as well.

On another note, there was a Nic Fit list a while back that ran Satyr Wayfinder. I believe it ran several Restoration Angels (combo with additional Satyr triggers or just combo with Thragtusk). I could see some very different variant of Nic Fit using him to fuel the grave/filter, which could then muscle out Tasigur or bring back important stuff with Eternal Witness. Perhaps it's possible to merge his mechanics with Meren and Karador? My brain can't figure things out, but that list still stands out because it focused Nic Fit in a different direction.


I will be that guy now. What is going on with all these 6-7 cmc creatures that have been floating around lately in this thread? I'd like to remember that one of the best creatures we can play (if not the Very best, aka Sigarda) is only 5cmc. And I find that 6 mana (to gsz for her) is pushing it already mana cost wise. I know you all are testing jund right now, but this is just a kind reminder to bring you folks back to the earth!
I think Dragonlord Dromoka and the Titans are likely the only true "it always costs 6 mana to cast" creatures I'd run. If anything, I'd be down to run more of the neglected 5 drops like Baneslayer.

[Arianrhod]

Here's my personal list of playable 6 drops:

Titans (any of them)
Dragonlord Dromoka
Consecrated Sphinx
Deadeye Navigator
Wurmcoil Engine

That's it. I don't think any other 6-drop is good enough.

Dragonlord Silumgar comes very close, but at the end of the day, you'd sooner run Frost Titan, ConSphinx, and Deadeye all before him. Greenwarden of Murasa is also not awful, but, again, there's just better cards.

Dromoka is kind of a standout just by virtue of not coming from the Scars of Mirrodin/Innistrad era. Like, seriously, that was the golden age for 6-drops. I'm personally a little uneasy about Dromoka still, just because legendary creatures need to pull a //LOT// of weight in my book to be worth the Karakas drawback, and at the end of the day, Dromoka is still just an enormous flying beatstick that has no protection and doesn't do anything when he comes in, or when he leaves play.

----------
Mythic White
----------

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
1 Nether Void
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip

This is my current default list for Mythic next month. I'm also still actively considering the BGC list that I posted about yesterday, as well as giving the Reanimator version another look. Failing either of those lists doing unexpectedly well, I'll be on something like this next month.

[Bobmans]

After playing some more games i can honostly say that Nissa, Vastwood Seer is awesome.
One game i had a courser out and some crap floating on top. I played her to shuffle, and a land showed on top (also had Omnath out) I played the land. Nissa flipped and Omnath spit a token. Either way, if you -2 Nissa you got a solid blocker and after that the +1 bury's you in CA. Just awesome. For that Arianrhod, i thank you.

[maharis]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Eternal Witness
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Warping Wail
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Harmonize

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

3 Sensei's Divining Top

5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of ugin

//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize


I was wondering when the fact that we could pull Wastes off of VetEx would come up.

I don't know how good Warping Wail really is. I think it's going to be difficult for any deck playing more than one color to do what it wants to do and have the mana up and have the card in hand to get 'em. Seems like you end up with two sort of watered-down plans: the play posts, counter wincon, jam Eldrazi plan, and the traditional vetex/therapy plan. One is colorless by design, the other is color-intensive. You didn't have these problems in your test games?

I like STE, also want to point out that Search for Tomorrow is a way to find Wastes that can be played on T1 in addition to VetEx.

I think in my head I saw this deck being more about Pod -- going up the Eldrazi chain from Matter Reshaper to Thought-Knot to Reality Smasher (have you read this card? So sick) and not playing Zenith much if at all (despite it being my favorite card). Can also top that off with Wurmcoil or something. That might not have enough game against combo, but would probably be sick if it panned out.

[Arianrhod]

I was wondering when the fact that we could pull Wastes off of VetEx would come up.

I don't know how good Warping Wail really is. I think it's going to be difficult for any deck playing more than one color to do what it wants to do and have the mana up and have the card in hand to get 'em. Seems like you end up with two sort of watered-down plans: the play posts, counter wincon, jam Eldrazi plan, and the traditional vetex/therapy plan. One is colorless by design, the other is color-intensive. You didn't have these problems in your test games?

I like STE, also want to point out that Search for Tomorrow is a way to find Wastes that can be played on T1 in addition to VetEx.

I think in my head I saw this deck being more about Pod -- going up the Eldrazi chain from Matter Reshaper to Thought-Knot to Reality Smasher (have you read this card? So sick) and not playing Zenith much if at all (despite it being my favorite card). Can also top that off with Wurmcoil or something. That might not have enough game against combo, but would probably be sick if it panned out.

I was actually very worried about trying to fuse the GB Nic Fit plan with the colorless post plan. I never ran into a single issue with it. I actually kind of wonder if some of that is because 6 posts is the sweet spot, and trying to play more than that gets you into trouble. That being said, I did actively try to hold down on the black costs in the deck as much as I could -- the whole deck can run off of 1 swamp.

My problem with Reality Smasher is that in older formats, he's going to get brickwalled by Goyf too often. I think the card is going to be a standard powerhouse, and it makes me very glad that I'm playing Crackling Doom in that format. Back here, though, no matter how much I like him as this deck's "baneslayer/stormbreath" slot (the 5-drop non-zenithable bomb), the fact that he doesn't have any kind of evasion and just loses to Goyf makes me remove him from consideration immediately.

[Fatal]

@Arianrhod stable mana base for Nic feat. 8Post is done, not sure are you ignoring posts or just didn't notice last one http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod stable mana base for Nic feat. 8Post is done, not sure are you ignoring posts or just didn't notice last one http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post

No, I saw this. I just want to examine the paradigm and draw my own conclusions based on what I'm seeing. I've never interacted with the 8post list that you describe, so I want to start from scratch and build my own conceptualizations about what works and doesn't. Give me a week or two -- once I get a good grasp on what I've got (if, indeed, I've got anything, which I'm not entirely convinced of yet), then I'll probably look back through the 8post stuff and see if there are any ideas that can be brought forward from that.

Definitely not ignoring you, just delaying you a little bit.

[Fatal]

Ok thank you for replay :-), actually I feel like deck is well positioned, but still unknown (Nic Fit hybrid with 8Post), too bad that I don't have any big tournaments near me (Poland) to popularize it with the good score, local testing isn't the same. I tested it vs blind meta on Cockatrice but it's still not the same as GP (next will be in Prague in half-year 2016).

Looking for feedback after you finish your testing and get good conclusions, we could compare them and I hope, find best solutions.

[Dadadot]

Has there been a discussion about oath of nissa yet?

[Arianrhod]

Has there been a discussion about oath of nissa yet?

Uh, good with Sun Titan. Otherwise more relevant to Junk/Rock decks who can overwrite it to grow Goyf or play Liliana off Wasteland. Not a card that's at all relevant to us unless Top gets axed, at which point we will probably consider it in greater detail.

[Echelon]

I like Empath and the creatures you mention. However, I disagree with Truths. I think the card is too slow (Mythic's meta = lots of fast decks -- dominated by quality Delver pilots). I already run Tasigur. I like the idea of Empath ---> Tasigur or Dragonlord Dromoka (a card I've been keeping an eye on). Maybe Karador fits into this lineup as well.

Hmm, I've never had that much trouble with Truths in my Junk build vs. anyDelver.dec. But I do run a different, cheaper removal suite than most. Besides, any Delver-infested meta should mean good times for Any Fit and especially Junk Fit.

In long games Karador is the stone cold nuts. When unanswered, it can completely turn a game around in 1 or 2 turns. I run it combined Empath and will not even consider ever taking it out. As for my 6+ drop suite, I run a Tasigur (for now), a Dromoka and a Karador. Tasigur may or may not go eventually, I've yet to decide. Dromoka and Karador are there to stay. Tasigur basically is the only flexslot I've got at the moment. The problem is that GSZ for Empath into a same turn Tasigur costs the same amount of mana as GSZ for Siege Rhino. There are the corner cases where you might want to flashback a Cabal Therapy whilst maintaining pressure on the board or where you want to keep an extra body around for Diabolic Intent, but I have yet to run into that. On the other hand, the alternative is that Tasigur would become DRS #3 and that doesn't really tickle my fancy. I may just keep the trick in, in case I need it.

That being said, to abuse Karador you do have to make sure you actually get to the lategame.

@Dadadot: It has been discussed briefly and found wanting.

[Bobmans]

@ Echelon What does your current Karador list looks like? (In the meanwhile it is waay back and stopped searching).

@Arianrhod What makes Sakura-Tribe Elder you going nuts? (In non-scapeshift lists that is).

[Arianrhod]

@ Echelon What does your current Karador list looks like? (In the meanwhile it is waay back and stopped searching).

@Arianrhod What makes Sakura-Tribe Elder you going nuts? (In non-scapeshift lists that is).

Not entirely sure I understand the phrasing, but I'm guessing you want to know why I'm running Sakura as much as I am?

Mostly it comes down to wanting to get a 1-sided ramp creature off Zenith, and/or a ramp creature that doesn't require a sac outlet to work. If you can Zenith Sakura, and you have a land to play for your next turn, that ramps from 3->5, which is a pretty important skip. 5s tend to be our most impactful creatures, and it also allows for 4s with Daze protection.

The other thing to keep in mind is that while Sakura is kind of uninspiring on the face of it, the card has a ton of little synergies that people tend to forget about. You can fog Batterskull or Jitte with recursion. You can get rid of Bridge from Belows. You can ramp experience counters with Meren. You can set up early Nightmare loops by putting it in the graveyard. You can sit an on-demand Top shuffle in play for whenever you need to go digging. And so on.

The importance of the card is primarily based off of its value in the Zenith toolbox as a ramper and a color fixer that requires neither a sac outlet nor an opponent with limited basics, though, for sure. I felt its absence when I was playing Ultimate Fit at Mythic this month pretty harshly -- there were at least four scenarios where I wanted access to Sakura off Zenith and I just didn't have it in the list to get.

[Bobmans]

Not entirely sure I understand the phrasing, but I'm guessing you want to know why I'm running Sakura as much as I am?

Yes, thank you for your answer.

@Echolon, find your list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=924196&viewfull=1#post924196), but is it up-to-date?

[Warden]

Yes, thank you for your answer.

@Echolon, find your list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=924196&viewfull=1#post924196), but is it up-to-date?

@Bobman, that was him tinkering with the idea of exploration. I would assume (clues in what he said above)
-3 exploration
+2 DRS
+1 Tasigur
*insert changes to diabolic intent and the removal package

I would assume Echolon runs Abrupt Decays in the MD. It's the best removal card in the format.

@Echolon: Thanks for the response. Very informative.

[Echelon]

@ Echelon What does your current Karador list looks like? (In the meanwhile it is waay back and stopped searching).

Oh my, is Karador getting some much needed love? Wow! Anways, here is my current list:

Main (60):
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Fierce Empath
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

SB (15):
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace


I mean to switch out a Forest for a second Phyrexian Tower but am having some trouble finding one, unfortunately.


I would assume Echolon runs Abrupt Decays in the MD. It's the best removal card in the format.

@Echolon: Thanks for the response. Very informative.

Your most welcome. I don't run ADs though. In a format where Grixis Delver is a thing, it's nice to have answers to a resolved Gurmag Angler. And PtE also does quite some work vs. the decks that can go larger than us (hey, nice Blightsteel Colossus/Wurmcoil Engine/Merit Lage token you have there). Vs. anyDelver.dec we're already favored anyways so screw counters/Lilliana. Heck, people frequently even board out a number of Dazes and/or FoWs vs. us, yay! As for stuff you would use AD for - apart from planeswalkers (though 4 mana Jace is the biggest pain in the ass, which is not answered by AD), Pernicious Deed is quite the omni-tool. Yes, I do miss AD when facing Miracles. But that's about it. In my opinion, PtE is the top removal card in the format and playing the full 4 has been a wonderful thing so far. I get that the standard removal suite is a thing of beauty, but with a little bit of creativity one can eliminate a couple of cards from it simply b/c you can answer some things in different ways. Lilliana for instance doesn't necessarily need an AD/Maelstrom Pulse to be answered. Fetching a Dryad Arbor in response of the -2 ability and smashing her in the face with any creature the following turn works quite well, for example. And if your opponent has a blocker - PtE it, you were probably going to do that anyway.

More often than not, your PtEs will target stuff that's smaller than your own creatures so you're usually fine with it getting countered if that means your opponent can't counter your GSZ/Siege Rhino anymore. Also, if it does get countered it'll probably be by a FoW rather than a Daze (I mean, who PtEs vs. a deck that runs Dazes without leaving mana open for said Daze?). That's a 2-for-1 in our favor, which is a game most decks can't play for too long vs. us.

That being said, I find myself Diabolic Intent-ing (and Eternal Witnessing) for PtE more than anything else. Most decks you face are relatively light on threats, so having enough PtEs means your opponent won't be attacking you which in turn means you get the time you need to deploy the big guns and CA engines.

So in short, I prefer PtE vs. AD b/c it often'll do the same for less mana (and uses the least intensively used mana colour we have as opposed to the BG needed by AD) and offers some upsides vs. troubling MUs. Furthermore, neither matter in our worst MUs - TES and ANT so AD wouldn't win us any ground there. Luckily, I rarely run into Miracles at my LGS. If I did, I'd probably run a couple of AD in my SB. It's a hard MU.

Courser of Kruphix is another all star in the list. I run an insane amount of shuffling effects. Once in the late game you just shuffle away whatever crappy card floats on top and filter out lands whenever you can, works like a charm. Sometimes it's very good to know not to shuffle b/c there is a gamebreaking Siege Rhino/PtE on the top of your library.

[Bobmans]

Oh my, is Karador getting some much needed love? Wow! Anways, here is my current list:


Yes, cool cards deserve attention. The fact that your looking into cmc 8 means that there is room for flexibility aside of streamlining. Me looking into a Jund list supporting Omnath has opened my eyes to look further. Your list deserves a try and is inspiring me to look and go beyond, so i ordered all the missing cards (japanese variants obviously, aswell as consphinx, deadeye and Omnath). Currently i am brewing something unorthodox in Jund. My fear is that the new Eldrazi might be omni present (at first at least) so Stp/PtE is the most logical choice. That gave ideas for Junk aswell. Also i am reshaping the earlygame a bit and found the decks ramping capabilities surprisingly high and not bound to Junk, Jund or BUG. Time to exploit. I have always tried to hunt a more attrition-like midgame plan with more efficient creatures, but going bigger is what actually compliments NicFit.
In my testing with Omnath i was able to land that elemental every single game so far. Even vs DnT with Thalia out thru a GSZ (StP was no problem at that point).
Karador makes a lot of sense, especially along Fierce Empath, because you can GSZ into it for 9, GSZ into it with Fierce and hardcast it for reduced cost, etc.
In my search i am trying to find out how far i can push it.
So My biggest question is, how do find yourself getting Karador on the battlefield most of the times?

[Echelon]

Well obviously not by way of GSZ for X = 8. That just does not happen.

When Karador hits the field, it'll be for its reduced cost (which is the only reason I play it). I've paid anything from the best case 3 to 6 mana to cast Karador so far. Casting it for around 5/6 mana would be the most common case, assuming we haven't been hit with sweepers and the game hasn't been going that incredibly long yet. This usually happens when I naturally draw into it or Fierce Empath (and don't have the mana to cast Dromoka yet. Even though it's fun to durdle, it's usually more effective to just smash face).

Actively searching for Karador (be it via GSZ into Empath or Diabolic Intent) mostly happens during long games where I have a nice, big graveyard to feed from, effectively letting me "draw" an extra creature card every turn. In that case you're slowly undoing all spotremoval and sweepers your opponent has cast so far. Assembling Karador + Meren means your opponent must sweep them both in one turn (or exile them, obviously) otherwise the first one just recurs the second one and vice versa.

Do remember that with a single Diabolic Intent in hand and a creature (or green fetchland) on the field you can assemble our beloved engine out of nowhere:
- Intent for Eternal Witness
- Cast Witness and return Intent
- Intent Witness for Meren/Karador
- Cast said Meren/Karador
- Recur Witness and return Intent
- Intent Witness again to get Phyrexian Tower (or PtE/Pernicious Deed if you don't already have one in your GY and then get Phyrexian Tower. Or, vs artifact based decks during games 2/3, fetch Qasali Pridemage to just be done with it)
- ???
- Profit!

Sure, it takes a couple of turns, but you probably won't be doing this until your opponent is in topdeck mode and you have a large number of lands out. This ensures you manoeuvre to a position that your opponent can't fight himself out of, especially when you're pairing up Karador AND Meren (when you have the engine up and running with either one, it's a piece of cake to find the other one). Your deck basically turns into a boa constrictor that squeezes the life out of your opponent bit by bit until your opponent succumbs. Heck, it allows you to go over the top of decks that usually go over our top. Eventually you manage to destroy more of your opponents cards per turn than your opponent draws, leaving your opponent with a stack of lands and a topdeck/turn (if your opponent starts amassing a hand, just cycle Eternal Witness and Cabal Therapy every turn whilst proceeding to smash face).

Furthermore, stuff like Karador aren't things you pull off/go for vs. anyDelver.dec normally. Vs. those decks you just smash face with Rhino and win from there. If you do manage to drop a Meren/Karador you're usually in an incredibly good place vs. those decks though, but mainly it's just overkill. It, however, gives you the reach you need vs. anything that goes bigger than us.

[rubblekill]

Considering that our biggest problem is Terminus and/or StP, how does Karador win against them? I'd like to know the meta you are playing, because it seems like a weird meta looking at your posts.

[Echelon]

Considering that our biggest problem is Terminus and/or StP, how does Karador win against them? I'd like to know the meta you are playing, because it seems like a weird meta looking at your posts.

We play too many threats to be bothered just by StP.

My meta is mostly a lot of anyDelver.dec, Stoneblade, some TES/ANT, Burn, MUD, Infect, Maverick, Elves, a little bit of Miracles and Lands. Nothing too fancy.

That being said, near-everything folds to Terminus so I stopped caring. Following that logic, we should run TES (which has its own problems). When facing more Miracles I might run a Thragtusk and a number of AD, but for now I don't need them.

[rubblekill]

We play too many threats to be bothered just by StP.

My meta is mostly a lot of anyDelver.dec, Stoneblade, some TES/ANT, Burn, MUD, Infect, Maverick, Elves, a little bit of Miracles and Lands. Nothing too fancy.

That being said, near-everything folds to Terminus so I stopped caring. Following that logic, we should run TES (which has its own problems). When facing more Miracles I might run a Thragtusk and a number of AD, but for now I don't need them.

Oh, now I understand. Seems like a good meta to play the deck.

[Echelon]

I forgot we also have some Shardless BUG, Dredge and occasional D&T. And every once in a while we see stuff like AnyShow & Tell and the occasional Merfolks/Goblins (once in a blue moon).

So yeah, that's a pretty nice meta to be playing Nic Fit in :laugh:.

[rubblekill]

What about resto angel? Beside the obvious tusk interaction, it seems very powerful in theory with rhino, eternal witness, all the 6cmc titans, and even with fierce empath (..). It is a surprise factor and nobody expect her.
It's not like we cannot afford a 4 mana dude.
Has anyone tested her yet? E: I'm sure you have, I'm asking for feedback.

[Echelon]

It's 4 CMC so it's competing with Siege Rhino & Meren, which is hard to do.

Sure, it can perform some neat combat tricks and perhaps even generate a small amount of CA but I can't GSZ for it and don't want to deliberately keep 4 (or 5 when wanting to account for Daze) mana open to trick my opponent during combat. For single shot CA we have both Fierce Empath (those who run it) and Eternal Witness. Both of which we can GSZ for and cost 1 mana less.

As far as combat goes, Siege Rhino provides a better and more robust clock. For the same CMC (and with the ability to be GSZ'd for) Meren is a source of permanent CA.

Unfortunately it does not do anything we can't already do and does all of it less efficiently than we already do.

[rubblekill]

It's 4 CMC, so it's competing with Siege Rhino & Meren which is hard to do.

Sure, it can perform some neat combat tricks and perhaps even generate a small amount of CA but I can't GSZ for it and don't want to deliberately keep 4 (or 5 when wanting to account for Daze) mana open to trick my opponent during combat. For single shot CA we have both Fierce Empath (those who run it) and Eternal Witness. Both of which we can GSZ for and cost 1 mana less.

As far as combat goes, Siege Rhino provides a better and more robust clock. For the same CMC (and with the ability to be GSZ'd for) Meren is a permanent source of CA.

Unfortunately it does not do anything we can't already do and does all of it less efficiently than we already do.

Fair enough, thanks

[rubblekill]

Updates for the junk build? Ricardio, Matt?

[Ricardio]

Updates for the junk build? Ricardio, Matt?

I've been working on bug control irl. Not much mtgo lately since new year is hectic at work. Wish I had something constructive to add. Decay and rhino are still good.

[Bobmans]

I've been working on bug control irl.

And with good results i have read. Congrats on your t16 placing at SCG.

[Jain_Mor]

Updates for the junk build? Ricardio, Matt?

Can't speak for Matt, but this is what I'm playing with, though no real updates just tuning numbers. Trying to get karakas in the deck.

I can guess for Matt though, take out the 6 cards in my SFM package and the troll, then add 7 siege rhinos ;)
Or if you want to enter a tournament, add 3 rhinos and then 4 more ways to play and abuse them (how close am I Matt? :)

1 Dryad arbor
4 Vet
1 Scooze
1 Teeg
1 EWit
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Meren
1 Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Tusk
13
3 SFM
1 SoFaF
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
6

4 Therapy
4 Gsun
2 Top
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Deed
3 Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Abzan Charm
20

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
1 Bayou
2 Scrub
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Tower
1 Volrath's
22
61

SB
1 Dryad Militant
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Deluge
2 Tsunami
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

[Echelon]

I can guess for Matt though, take out the 6 cards in my SFM package and the troll, then add 7 siege rhinos ;)
Or if you want to enter a tournament, add 3 rhinos and then 4 more ways to play and abuse them (how close am I Matt? :)

Is it finally time to start running 4 Summoner's Pact? Lol.

[Jain_Mor]

Is it finally time to start running 4 Summoner's Pact? Lol.

Hahaha, genius! 4 Rhino 4Gsun 4Pact 2Intents and a Nightmare or two.
You getting this down Matt?

[rubblekill]

Ok, so I'll give my updates for the junk version. I have tried to be less narrow minded, so I have tinkered with different things; note that I have put aside SFM not because I think she's not good, but just for the sake of trying various builds.

First, I have tried myself what some consider to be Echelon's darkest fetish: Fierce Empath + DL Dromoka AND Grave Titan.
I wanted to play it to form my final judgement. Unfortunately, Empath falls into the "cute" category, although he can be awesome at times: I just feel that too many stars have to align in order for him to work (and for "him" I mean his "package"). I played 2 6 cmc guys to take advantage of the tutor, but that resulted in a very, very clunky build. Nothing worst than opening a game with a 1-2 lander with 6cmc dude in hand (and often there's gonna be some other stuff like rhino deeds etc, cards that do nothing in the early game).
Grave Titan is just my pet card, I wanted to play him so so badly but I think he shines more in the straight BG version because he can be THE finisher after having grinded to the ground the opponent with Liliana and Hymns. In the junk build we want to be riding Rhino(s) (innuendo fully intended) and doing other stuff.

So, for me, no Empath and no Titan.

But what about DL Dromoka? I mean he can be GSZ'd, flies over those damned Goyfs and cannot be countered; I want to play him because of these reasons. I need to test a little bit more before dropping him but the problem with DL Dromoka is that it is very sad to tap out for our 6 mana guy, only to be EOT StP'd. So I thought that he could shine against BG/x decks because of the flying ability, but in the end my opponents discarded him before I could reach 6 mana and Liliana of the Veil is a card. Not many times, after a very grindy mid game in which we both ripped our hands apart, I could put on the field one more dude to blank Liliana's edict activation. I want to play him more but I think that he's just not worth it. He is decent but, sorry in advance for the daily plug, Sigarda is simply a safer win condition: she shines both in the BG/x AND in the StP match ups. Maybe I'll try 2 MD Sigardas.

Second, DRS. I started with 1, then added a second and finally a third. I am now trying the full playset: everybody knows the potential of his activations, but I want to try 4 of them simply because he is additional ramp that help us transitioning into the late game faster. A Llanowar elf indeed. But what about the Deed-DRS nonbo? It can definitely be a nonbo, so I have to be more careful and plan ahead what I want to do in the next 2-3 turns if I have deed and DRS in hand/play. I am running 2 Deeds now so it is less of a problem, although the nonbo may be a factor.

Currently running 2 deeds with 1 Toxic Deluge in the main: they basically fill the same role, and Deluge cannot be Needled, Stifled, Decayed and it is faster because it's cheaper (relevant against fast Elves hands, or fast Delver starts). One time I managed to win an otherwise impossible game against reanimator: 0 creatures on the board, he reanimates Inkwell Leviathan. Next turn Deluge for 11 ftw.

Regarding the DRS/V. Explorer split, the trend seems to be either: 1/4, 2/4, 3/3 or 0/4. Again, I wanted to experiment so I decided to play the full 4/4 split. This decision was made after I put a second Tower in the main. The philosophy of these 2 changes is this: the more we can recreate the sac-explorer interaction, the more this deck just destroy non combo decks. I want to maximise the chances of that happening so 4 veteran and 2 towers (I do not play Karakas, Volrath's Stronghold and only play 1 of each dual. I have removed the 4th forest for the tower). 2 Towers 4 Therapies 4 Explorers: Meren's happy.

Elspeth was very nice, but to make space for these changes I opted for a singleton Garruk PE for the PW slot in the side. In this build that does not have equipments, 1/1s feel weaker.

In the end my latest experimental version is the following (probably the first one to go will be Dromoka):

http://i.imgur.com/scQ5Hgs.jpg

Sorry for the long message and for my english. I'm looking forward to read your feedback.

[Arianrhod]

First, I have tried myself what some consider to be Echelon's darkest fetish: Fierce Empath + DL Dromoka AND Grave Titan.


I legit laughed out loud IRL at this. Well played.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Read the Bones
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Warping Wail

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin

//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize

Updated list for Diamond. Cutting the 4th Reshaper was painful, but the deck does actually want Nissa, and realistically Nissa is basically a Reshaper anyway. I'm looking to find a slot for the 4th Reshaper at some point in future tuning, but it's out for the moment while I test this configuration.

3/4 cloud/glimmer looks awful and triggers ocd, but feels pretty good to play with. I still don't want to go full 4/4, but I will note that the 4th Glimmer is actually pretty obnoxious in the amount of mana and life it gives.

Llanowar Wastes is a triland, lol. In one of my in-between iterations that did not get posted, I tried to go up to 2 Wastes, but I started getting hands without green mana, which is absolutely unacceptable. A singleton Llanowar Watses is my solution to that -- it's another <C> source, but it's /also/ a bayou.

Wail is up to 4, because the card is stupid.

Ob Nix proved to be a little slow -- not bad by any stretch, but I feel comfortable re-asserting my prior position on the card: he's a very good sideboard consideration, but not maindeck worthy barring unusual circumstances.

Harmonize at 4 was clunky, Night's Whisper at 2 was underpowered, Read the Bones at 3 is perfect.

3/2 Deed/Deluge still feels great.

Thought-Knot wasn't great maindeck because it shined in some matchups that I've tested, but was pretty garbage in others, which is the classic trend of a sideboard card. I replaced the maindeck copies with ObBaloths because I liked having the 4/4 for 4 -- Matter Reshaper gives the deck a subtle aggro plan, and having another chunky body to curve into won me a surprising number of games.

I looked over the 8post hybrid primer, and I didn't really see too much that I liked -- not because I felt what I saw there was bad, but because this is actually a different deck. 8post was approaching the concept from the 12post side; Diamond is approaching from Nic Fit. What this means is that 8post is fundamentally a ramp deck, while Diamond is fundamentally a control deck. There's a lot of overlap, of course -- both use the Vet/Therapy engine to ramp, both have Deeds and some spot removal to control.

The key difference is that 8post is on 4 Primeval Titans and eschews card advantage and midrange bodies. 8post gets away with this because it doesn't need any card draw by virtue of running 4 Primevals, which can all go into Eye, which goes into win. It's a much more dynamic, proactive deck.

This thing is just an asshole. It sits there sweeping and exiling everything while threatening pressure with durdles on the ground, while -also- threatening to go nuclear with eldrazi and nightmare in the late game.

They're very different styles. I think that 8post is a fine approach, but I personally prefer to come more from the control side.

I'll post more as I get more games in with it and have more thoughts to share.

[Echelon]

I legit laughed out loud IRL at this. Well played.

Hahaha so did I.

[Ricardio]

And with good results i have read. Congrats on your t16 placing at SCG.

Thank you very much.

I should be able to take a look at my lists on modo this evening. Hoping to dodge fnm and play a bit of nic fit but who knows.
the newest set looks slightly better than BFZ and I am dreading all these obnoxious eldrazi. I hope the eldrazi are bad and they don't unban sfm in modern but more importantly they ban Terminus in legacy. that would be dope.

I saw some lists earlier in the thread with karador as well as melen which seems like overkill. We already lean on the gy pretty hard, we need to diversify zones and make sure we don't get dredge rekt by rip. I also like the idea of a single STElder in 4 GSZ lists for a level of consistency. DL Dromoka just gets karakas'd or STP'd which feels bad man. Maybe in the nightmare decks an acidic slime can take the place of artifact hate and be there for pesky lands like karakas.

The online meta is so blue dense that I am thinking of trying hate cards mainboard but I fear that just makes me a worse sylvan plug deck.

Seeing so many lists with 2-3 rhinos and I feel its 4 or try something else like a different shard or deck. it is just the best thing you can be doing at 4 mana in abzan midrange colors. Jam rhinos, save the cheerleader, save the world. its that simple.

We have so many threats mainboard that I believe we have no room in the 15 sb to play more. it all needs to be specialized hate for matchups like storm. Surgical is much better than extirpate because its pseudo free. being able to duress t1 otp and surgical the combo card is absolutely necessary to winning the game. extirpate doesn't allow that along with a necessity for BB on t2.

if you are running tsunami/boil/choke, I think there is some play to flashfires if there is enough miracles. Sure it hits your but like playing blood moon, you are the one lighting the fires.

Some number of needles/revoker seems insane. I saw a few guys doing it and its great but nonbos with deed. Revoker naming led is big game. Needle on jtms/top is great as well. Right now the number of stifles, like said before, is larger than I would like. getting stifled is like dropping your ice cream on the ground, it feels awful and you wish you hadn't gotten up this morning. I think, from a modo standpoint, I will look into less triggers and maybe go harder on the unlosable fair mainboard into ginormous dild0 in the unfair matchups.

its a lot but its broken up enough. #showerthoughts #iwasntintheshower

[uncletiggy]

For what it's worth my junk rhino list is on the bottom of page 148 with -1 decay +1 plow. My next string of testing is going to involve -1 rhino -1 stronghold +1 nightmare +1 academy rector with some board changes to reflect the rectors inclusion and probably dropping the red splash for the time being. The four rhino two truths build so far is the most consistent and overwhelming and barring some amazing granny blowjob from rector will likely be my finalized list

[Ricardio]

For what it's worth my junk rhino list is on the bottom of page 148 with -1 decay +1 plow. My next string of testing is going to involve -1 rhino -1 stronghold +1 nightmare +1 academy rector with some board changes to reflect the rectors inclusion and probably dropping the red splash for the time being. The four rhino two truths build so far is the most consistent and overwhelming and barring some amazing granny blowjob from rector will likely be my finalized list

haha great visual right there. I personally thing in nic fit, path is much better than swords especially with rhinos being the primary plan.

[Arianrhod]

haha great visual right there. I personally thing in nic fit, path is much better than swords especially with rhinos being the primary plan.

Agree with this. I'll note that I personally find 4 Rhinos to be one too many -- they tend to clog too much in your hand in my opinion, especially with Meren also wanting to see play. That's just been my experience, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone who runs 4x. The card's good enough to justify it.

[Ricardio]

Agree with this. I'll note that I personally find 4 Rhinos to be one too many -- they tend to clog too much in your hand in my opinion, especially with Meren also wanting to see play. That's just been my experience, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone who runs 4x. The card's good enough to justify it.

I want to run out rhino after rhino every turn I can. Meren, in both my experiences with it, gets bounced by karakas. Rhino has trample. Meren doesn't.

I suggest playing painters servant and a small gsz tool box. maybe toss a emrakul in there and gsz for 15. #yolo #magicalchristmasland

[uncletiggy]

@ rubblekill please stop letting your opponent eot anything with dromoka out. That city of solitude hanging out at the bottom of the card is worth remembering. I'd advise against playing him either way what you get out of him is worth the cost. There are so many better cards at 4-5 mana and space is too tight anymore for any of the titans and he's hardly better then any of them.

@ricardio that plow is a typo I'm going up to 3 path not a 2/1 split of path plow. I completely agree on path being the correct choice I advocated for it unsuccessfully for a long time it wasn't till rhinos printing and Matt putting down the rock and started tuning a nic fit list that people started catching on.

[rubblekill]

@ rubblekill please stop letting your opponent eot anything with dromoka out. That city of solitude hanging out at the bottom of the card is worth remembering. I'd advise against playing him either way what you get out of him is worth the cost. There are so many better cards at 4-5 mana and space is too tight anymore for any of the titans and he's hardly better then any of them.

@ricardio that plow is a typo I'm going up to 3 path not a 2/1 split of path plow. I completely agree on path being the correct choice I advocated for it unsuccessfully for a long time it wasn't till rhinos printing and Matt putting down the rock and started tuning a nic fit list that people started catching on.

You are Totally right, but you get the point.

@Ricardio I usually board meren out in the stp match ups also for that reason

[sdematt]

Sorry, was sick for the past week and I've also been driving a ton, since, Porsche. I'll catch up tonight.

-Matt

[Bobmans]

Sorry, was sick for the past week and I've also been driving a ton, since, Porsche. I'll catch up tonight.

-Matt

Did the Porsche get you some female pick-ups?

[sdematt]

I may or may not have had sexual relations in that car. No confirmations, though. I love this car more than Siege Rhino, to put it in perspective. Message me and to add me on Facebook, y'all, and you can live vicariously through me ;)

[Echelon]

@ rubblekill please stop letting your opponent eot anything with dromoka out. That city of solitude hanging out at the bottom of the card is worth remembering. I'd advise against playing him either way what you get out of him is worth the cost. There are so many better cards at 4-5 mana and space is too tight anymore for any of the titans and he's hardly better then any of them.

@ricardio that plow is a typo I'm going up to 3 path not a 2/1 split of path plow. I completely agree on path being the correct choice I advocated for it unsuccessfully for a long time it wasn't till rhinos printing and Matt putting down the rock and started tuning a nic fit list that people started catching on.

For me PtE is an automatic 4-off.

On Dromoka vs. white - if you find yourself unable to get rid of StP, board out the 6+ CMC package and Meren and use Sigarda as a finisher. Most of the time that'll work just fine.

On Fierce Empath - it's an acquired taste. It goes best with stuff @6 CMC+ which doesn't necessarily have to cost 6 mana+ to play. So Tasigur/Karador. And yes, 9 out of 10 times I'll GSZ for Courser (or Rihino, if I can) rather than Empath, but that's fine by me. I'm biased as hell :smile:. Hitting Empath as a topdeck in the lategame has won me games though. But you know, keep playing a card long enough and the situation's bound to come up. So there's that, lol.

Concluding: I have an unhealthy attachment to the card and love to indulge in my fetish :laugh:.

[rubblekill]

I have an unhealthy attachment to the card and love to indulge in my fetish :laugh:.

Keep on indulging man, with no regrets.


I saw some lists earlier in the thread with karador as well as melen which seems like overkill. We already lean on the gy pretty hard, we need to diversify zones and make sure we don't get dredge rekt by rip

I agree wholeheartedly.


I also like the idea of a single STElder in 4 GSZ lists for a level of consistency. DL Dromoka just gets karakas'd or STP'd which feels bad man. Maybe in the nightmare decks an acidic slime can take the place of artifact hate and be there for pesky lands like karakas.

STE seems a wasted GSZ to me. I'll stick to the 4/4 DRS/Explorer at the moment. Agreed on DL Dromoka. Slime is clunky imo, and we have a lot of removal already (I even play vindicate for the online planeswalkers, but it can also kill lands).


Seeing so many lists with 2-3 rhinos and I feel its 4 or try something else like a different shard or deck. it is just the best thing you can be doing at 4 mana in abzan midrange colors. Jam rhinos, save the cheerleader, save the world. its that simple.

Hahaha, now it's my time to laugh IRL :laugh:. 3 Rhino is the sweet spot imo, because we have Meren as the 4th 4cmc guy. Tusk is nice against miracles (online meta, as you know), and I personally think the 1 Meren and 1 Tusk fill the void left by the 4th Rhino.


We have so many threats mainboard that I believe we have no room in the 15 sb to play more. it all needs to be specialized hate for matchups like storm. Surgical is much better than extirpate because its pseudo free. being able to duress t1 otp and surgical the combo card is absolutely necessary to winning the game. extirpate doesn't allow that along with a necessity for BB on t2.

I'll admit that Extirpate is for budget reasons. The singleton Garruk is dedicated for miracles and random control decks. Trust me, he generates some serious CA and/or threats.

How do you feel about the inclusion of a SFM package?


On the 4*PtE topic. 4 is overkill imho. We have 3-4 decays already, often the uncounterability is better than the 1 mana cost. Mentor for example needs to be killed ASAP, and decay guarantees that while path makes counterbalance relevant (when otherwise it is a dead card against us basically). Maybe in lands.dec heavy metas that amount of paths is the correct option, otherwise it is just too much spot removal for my tastes.

[aicnelavo]

@arianrhod and everyone else who has played with wastes,:

Just how nuts is warping wail?
It seems like a pretty good answer to storm plus other helpful utilities. I like the idea of throwing in a wastes and perhaps a painland. I run a junk wishfit build with less creatures and heavy board control. (Usually wish for the nut vreature vs MU or a non zenithable bomb latte game) i could really use some help vs fast combo (dont we all).

Ps. I only get playtesting at my lgs

[Echelon]

Keep on indulging man, with no regrets.

...

STE seems a wasted GSZ to me. I'll stick to the 4/4 DRS/Explorer at the moment. Agreed on DL Dromoka. Slime is clunky imo, and we have a lot of removal already (I even play vindicate for the online planeswalkers, but it can also kill lands).

...

On the 4*PtE topic. 4 is overkill imho. We have 3-4 decays already, often the uncounterability is better than the 1 mana cost. Mentor for example needs to be killed ASAP, and decay guarantees that while path makes counterbalance relevant (when otherwise it is a dead card against us basically). Maybe in lands.dec heavy metas that amount of paths is the correct option, otherwise it is just too much spot removal for my tastes.

First off: Hells yeah!

Second: There is no such thing as a wasted GSZ, that's what makes it so good. If STE is exactly what you need that turn to deploy the rest of your plan, go for it. After that the GSZ'll show up again eventually anyway.

Third: When running 4 PtE, one does not run AD and I can say from experience in that context (which you tend to skip over for some reason. As I said before "Meh, uncounterability" is not adressing the opportunity cost of the thing) it is not overkill. Furthermore, PtE isn't counterable by Daze as long as you keep the same amount of mana up as you need for casting AD, yet it allows you to cast say a Cabal Therapy afterwards b/c your opponent did not play Daze and you still have mana left. When adressing FoW - why wouldn't we be happy to have a 1 CMC spell countered at the cost of 2 of our opponents' cards?

The example of Mentor is cornercase, especially when combined with CB. Miracle pilots only run so many 3-drops (and not every Miracles build runs Mentor) so you still have Deed to answer it. Besides, when running PtE you can always run AD in your SB and switch those out when need be.

But to get to the core of this: If there is so much Miracles in your meta wouldn't you be better of piloting something else rather than to keep complaining about it..? Repeating "Yes, but Terminus and StP" or other such drivel doesn't make your problem go away.

Or to end on a somewhat constructive note: If you face so much Miracles in your meta, you might want to run 4 AD in your MB.

[Bartawe]

I'm personally on 4 Decay 2 path, mainly because the versatility of Decay seems required to me. The ability to take out equipment, Sylvans and hate enchantments/artifacts trumps STPs pros.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

I'm personally on 4 Decay 2 path, mainly because the versatility of Decay seems required to me. The ability to take out equipment, Sylvans and hate enchantments/artifacts trumps STPs pros.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Pernicious Deed answers those things as well. And a SB Qasali Pridemage does wonders. In the cases you mention it's a GSZ-able AD that's relatively easy to recur with Meren. And both provide reach AD doesn't (ie. Batterskull itself and stuff like Wurmcoil Engine).

Seriously, Decay doesn't answer that much stuff you otherwise couldn't. Your opponent SFMs for an equipment, on your turn you cast Cabal Therapy. And equipment is dead on the board without a creature to carry it, Sylvan Library sucks when mirrored with a sweeper and random enchantments/artifacts (the most annoying of which cost >3 mana, by the way) can be answered/shut down entirely with a GSZ-able engine. If need be we can ignore CotV/Trinisphere entirely. The same goes for Counterbalance, by the way. Just be clever about it.

Why do you think Nic Fit does so well against any fair deck..? Legacy thinks being able to kill stuff as long as it doesn't cost more than 3 or has less than 3 toughness is sufficient, hence our ability to roll over a nice part of the meta. Piloting Nic Fit should learn one that this just isn't true so don't fall for that trap.

We needn't fear the stuff that's smaller than what we do, we need to fear that what's bigger than we do (in which case AD does shit).

[rubblekill]

Pernicious Deed answers those things as well. And a SB Qasali Pridemage does wonders. In the cases you mention it's a GSZ-able AD that's relatively easy to recur with Meren. And both provide reach AD doesn't (ie. Batterskull itself and stuff like Wurmcoil Engine).

Seriously, Decay doesn't answer that much stuff you otherwise couldn't. Your opponent SFMs for an equipment, on your turn you cast Cabal Therapy. And equipment is dead on the board without a creature to carry it, Sylvan Library sucks when mirrored with a sweeper and random enchantments/artifacts (the most annoying of which cost >3 mana, by the way) can be answered/shut down entirely with a GSZ-able engine. If need be we can ignore CotV/Trinisphere entirely. The same goes for Counterbalance, by the way. Just be clever about it.

Why do you think Nic Fit does so well against any fair deck..? Legacy thinks being able to kill stuff as long as it doesn't cost more than 3 or has more than 3 toughness is sufficient, hence our ability to roll over a nice part of the meta. Piloting Nic Fit should learn one that this just isn't true so don't fall for that trap.

We needn't fear the stuff that's smaller than what we do, we need to fear that what's bigger than we do.

Well a turn 2/3 liliana screws us over harshly. Even a later liliana is a problem to be honest, and decay answers that. And the "fetch the arbor to blow the opponent up" doesn't work with a decent opponent most of the times. The ability to blow random stuff that can't be hit by deed or paths outclasses the full on 4paths build, maybe I'm wrong but this is just my experience with the deck.

I don't have space for qasali in the deck since I'd rather main deck teeg instead. Sideboard is basically only for storm and miracles

[Echelon]

Well a turn 2/3 liliana screws us over harshly. Even a later liliana is a problem to be honest, and decay answers that. And the "fetch the arbor to blew the opponent" doesn't work with a decent opponent most of the times. The ability to blow random stuff that can't be hit by deed or paths outclasses the full on 4paths build, maybe I'm wrong but is just my experience with the deck.

I don't have space for qasali in the deck since I'd rather main deck teeg instead. Sideboard is basically only for storm and miracles

Define "random stuff that can't be answered with Deed/PtE". Make a list.

Then make a list of things Deed/PtE do answer that AD doesn't.

I'm honestly curious to see how they pair up.

[rubblekill]

Define "random stuff that can't be answered with Deed/PtE". Make a list.

Liliana is one. And not random at all. And don't forget the uncounterability, deed is counterable (and stiflable..)

And I do run path but as a 2 of. Plus 3 AD. Seems the most balanced to me; I'm all about balance and having different kinds of removal, going with 4 of one kind and 0 of the other is not balanced. You only have an edge vs me in the lands mu, unless I'm forgetting something because I'm writing this while I'm at work.

The qasali argument is irrelevant to me because I'm not willing to waste a slot on him in the side

[Echelon]

One card in an already good match up is not a list and uncounterability never answered a single threat.

[pettdan]

Here is a list of cards that Abrupt Decay can hit. A lot of them are cards you want to have removed ASAP. I don't think it's super relevant if Deed hits them, since you usually need some redundancy in these effects and... you want them ASAP. On the other hand Echelon tends to play Diabolic Intent (in plural even, right?) which adds virtual copies of deed.

Counterbalance
Chalice of the Void
Liliana of the Veil
Sylvan Library
Aether Vial
Sulfuric Vortex
Pithing Needle (esp on deed)
Sensei's Divining Top (actually)
Equipment
Grindstone
Food Chain
Crucible of Worlds
Animate Dead
Null Rod
Suppression Field
Enchantress's Presence
Solitary Confinement
Thopter Foundry
Ensnaring Bridge
Grafdigger's Cage
Candelabra of Tawnos

And occasionally:
Blood Moon
Bitterblossom
Expedition Map
Rest in Peace
Trinisphere (early trini stops [flashbacked] therapies [+veteran])

With that said I think path seems very good too, I'm thinking of trying something like 3 decay + 1/2 paths in the main deck and 2/1 paths in the sideboard. Path seems to me to be one of the best cards in nic fit in general right now, when choosing which flavor of nic fit to play, since it makes lands beatable. That may be all in my head and may also be related to a high number of local Depths. Also I'm thinking the more Paths I play the more I want Painful Truths in the deck. But that is another discussion..

Edit:
On another topic I played reanimator fit last week. It was super fun. It didn't go particularly well, 1-3. Two losses were to infect and featured much discard and little removal and reanimation as I recalled. Also lost a tight and grindy game vs bant thopter control, I was about to win the second game when we went to time. Won against a grixis reanimator brew with young pyro transformational sideboard. Changes I've made to Arianrhod's list include md decays, glenn elendra over Iona (hard castable and with a similar lockdown effect vs combo). I'm adding darkblast to the sb for an entombable silver bullit vs infect, death and taxes, pyromancer etc. Also may try back to basics to hopefully do damage to bug, grixis, cloudpost, lands etc. I'll also add a Pithing Needle; not playing SDT makes this card extra good, also good vs stage, nexus, deathrite, jace. I'll provide more info if I get somewhere with it.

[Ricardio]

@rubblekill: I firmly believe in 4 rhinos but I can understand cutting one. I do understand budget reasons but if you need surgicals, by all means, let me know. I can trade you them on mtgo or mail you some. All for the greater good. (Echo: the greater good) 4/4 vet/drs is a lot when you are on the 3 deeds done dirt cheap plan. I think 4/2 is right and vindicate is indeed a house to be wrecking them with.

As for SFM package, I put it together on mtgo but haven't tested it at all so I assume nothing but wish for everything.

[rubblekill]

@rubblekill: I firmly believe in 4 rhinos but I can understand cutting one. I do understand budget reasons but if you need surgicals, by all means, let me know. I can trade you them on mtgo or mail you some. All for the greater good. (Echo: the greater good) 4/4 vet/drs is a lot when you are on the 3 deeds done dirt cheap plan. I think 4/2 is right and vindicate is indeed a house to be wrecking them with.

As for SFM package, I put it together on mtgo but haven't tested it at all so I assume nothing but wish for everything.

Oh thanks dude, very kind of you! But don't worry I still have stuff like Thrun I could sell, but I have to decide if I definitely don't need at all.
If you're back on modo welcome back, for me you are an important tester because you understand the meta I play everyday. And your deck lists usually look balanced.
I'm having great success with 4 vets 2 towers, the deck becomes even more consistent; drs is ramp and a win con: I feel i am doing great when I land a t1 shaman. I understand the possibility of a nonbo, but I think It can be avoided by planning the next few turns ahead. I'm still testing it but this build seems very, very solid to me: mana base wise and ramp wise. Still testing though.
In my SFM build I play 2 SFM 1 sofi and 1bskull. To be honest I am thinking of replacing bs with sofaf. Let us know your developments!

E: keep Meren in in the non stp non Karakas match ups! She is devastating vs bug strategies. Hell I do even keep her in against storm (in reality because I have better things to cut before her, not because I want to play her on purpose to buy back a decayed teeg, but her ability has come up in the past especially after having shredded the opponents hand with therapies and duresses).

[Echelon]

On the other hand Echelon tends to play Diabolic Intent (in plural even, right?) which adds virtual copies of deed.

Yes I do! I run 2 at all times. 5 Deeds/6 PtE (or rather 3 Deeds, 4 PtE & 2 of any)/10 Siege Rhinoes for me!

I even used to run 4 in my crazy ass Summoner's Egg build, but those days are gone.

@barney (rubble): I so need to get a 2nd Phyrexian Tower! Dammit!

[sdematt]

Yes I do! I run 2 at all times. 5 Deeds/6 PtE (or rather 3 Deeds, 4 PtE & 2 of any)/10 Siege Rhinoes for me!

I even used to run 4 in my crazy ass Summoner's Egg build, but those days are gone.

@barney (rubble): I so need to get a 2nd Phyrexian Tower! Dammit!

I've been trying 2 Phyrexian Towers (Korean, of course) and I've been liking the consistency of getting Explorers off a tiny bit more often. I miss Stronghold, sure, but we weren't using it a ton, anyway.

-Matt

[Echelon]

I've been trying 2 Phyrexian Towers (Korean, of course) and I've been liking the consistency of getting Explorers off a tiny bit more often. I miss Stronghold, sure, but we weren't using it a ton, anyway.

-Matt

Rub it in, why don't you? Lol.

[rubblekill]

Rub it in, why don't you? Lol.

Mate 2 towers Are awesome!1

By the way am I missing some kind of joke? I'm no barney, my name is Francis!

Matt, you are a pimp mother f'er always.

4vet 2pt gives us a fairly consistent boost, and I recommend it in basic heavy mana bases like mine.

E: apparently I was missing a joke. I know barney rubble, although I used to hate that cartoon.

[Echelon]

Mate 2 towers Are awesome!1

By the way am I missing some kind of joke? I'm no barney, my name is Francis!

You're killing me!

Just Google Barney Rubble. You're not telling me you don't know who that is, lol.

[Jain_Mor]

I ran two phy towers in my first ever outing with nic fit, and was very happy with them until a judge came over and asked me why I had two in play... :cool:

All my lists have two, highly recommend it, especially when you have SFMs lying around

[Ricardio]

Oh thanks dude, very kind of you! But don't worry I still have stuff like Thrun I could sell, but I have to decide if I definitely don't need at all.
If you're back on modo welcome back, for me you are an important tester because you understand the meta I play everyday. And your deck lists usually look balanced.
I'm having great success with 4 vets 2 towers, the deck becomes even more consistent; drs is ramp and a win con: I feel i am doing great when I land a t1 shaman. I understand the possibility of a nonbo, but I think It can be avoided by planning the next few turns ahead. I'm still testing it but this build seems very, very solid to me: mana base wise and ramp wise. Still testing though.
In my SFM build I play 2 SFM 1 sofi and 1bskull. To be honest I am thinking of replacing bs with sofaf. Let us know your developments!

E: keep Meren in in the non stp non Karakas match ups! She is devastating vs bug strategies. Hell I do even keep her in against storm (in reality because I have better things to cut before her, not because I want to play her on purpose to buy back a decayed teeg, but her ability has come up in the past especially after having shredded the opponents hand with therapies and duresses).

Well I definitely feel good about your opinion of me, thank you.

I will look into a second tower but im pretty firm on 4vet/2drs as for SFM I am still working on it. jitte is just so strong that I want to play 2 deed and jam a jitte. sofi is definitely the correct sword even though im a fan of sobm (but bruh, wolves)

I will update with a list when I get a chance.

[Nok_]

I'm new here, and looking to play a new Legacy deck (I played manaless dredge at GP Tacoma) as my current play group is trying to expand more into Legacy. This looks like my style, and I have a fair amount of the cards I'd need for the deck. After reading a lot of the posts on this thread, I've noticed that pretty much all the lists run 61 cards. Why does Nic Fit run 61 cards? Is it because we can due to the sheer number of tutor effects?

I'm currently looking at the BUG with Siege Rhinos list, which I think I'll be proxying and playing with my playgroup. We're doing a full-proxy (sorry, playtest card) tournament this weekend and I'll post the results of that. Should be pretty hard, I see that ANT is a bad match and there's at least one ANT player among us.

[Ricardio]

I'm new here, and looking to play a new Legacy deck (I played manaless dredge at GP Tacoma) as my current play group is trying to expand more into Legacy. This looks like my style, and I have a fair amount of the cards I'd need for the deck. After reading a lot of the posts on this thread, I've noticed that pretty much all the lists run 61 cards. Why does Nic Fit run 61 cards? Is it because we can due to the sheer number of tutor effects?

I'm currently looking at the BUG with Siege Rhinos list, which I think I'll be proxying and playing with my playgroup. We're doing a full-proxy (sorry, playtest card) tournament this weekend and I'll post the results of that. Should be pretty hard, I see that ANT is a bad match and there's at least one ANT player among us.

61 card special is a Matt trademark. he is that kind of special. The beauty of this deck compared to other legacy decks is that its so interchangeable and malleable that you can make it your own and build off what is originally in place. Tutor are strong but Skillerhino is stronger.

I would try abzan rhino fit for now. it is by far the most stable, at least in my opinion. Whats-his-name may be onto something with the wastes-post shell he posted a few pages back.

ANT is very beatable. Duress, cabal therapy and surgical pull a lot of weight. hand disruption and threats wins that game quick. the goal is to lead off with disruption, get a threat(preferably rhino), not them off Ad nauseam life and control their graveyard with DRS. Ideally you clock is faster than they can rebuild.

One of the keys to this archetype is CABAL THERAPY. Learn it, love it, know it. It is the single best 1 mana discard spell in magic and quite possibly the most knowledge testing.

that's all I have to say about that.

[Bobmans]

Should be pretty hard, I see that ANT is a bad match and there's at least one ANT player among us.

Often that 61st card gives you the right number of (specific) cards you want to run. 22 lands + 39 non-lands is pretty much standard, but not set in stone.
Any typical NicFit shell runs;
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

The rest of the deck is highly tweakable, but most stuff has been tried and were somwhat on a concensus to what's good and what's not.
Fair.dec is your typical good match-up. And combo is your not so good match-up.
Depending on your meta you can tweak it to improve specific match-up.
Currently Junk is the color of choice since it has Path to Exile, which is the best spot removal a deck can run (sharing the symmetry with Veteran Explorer nullifies the negative side effect). And it helps deals with stuff we generally have difficulty dealing with; MUD, Marit Lage, Eldrazi.
On top of that, white has access to soome great hate bears, Gaddock Teeg being the most obvious one (ANT).
Lastly Junk runs the best creatures. Rhino is good and simple, but not my reason to run Junk. As a matter of fact, I believe that Junk is equally good without Rhino.
Sigarda is representing Junk. She is a nightmare for BGx and Swords.
Also you can run SFM package.

[rubblekill]

What's your strategy against Shardless?

[Echelon]

Everything Shardless does is smaller than what we do and they hardly touch our GY.

B/c of Shardless Agent they can't run counters that aren't FoW so no need to worry about that. On blind Cabal Therapies just name FoW to clear those out as well. Their removal suite consists of Abrupt Decays so just drop Veteran Explorers and stuff with CMC > 3 on the board and you're fine.

Beside that, they tend to run Lilliana. Just drop a nice amount of creatures on the board or AD her, if you have it.

Shardless shouldn't be much of a problem. It should fold to our standard gameplan.

[rubblekill]

Everything Shardless does is smaller than what we do and they hardly touch our GY.

B/c of Shardless Agent they can't run counters that aren't FoW so no need to worry about that. On blind Cabal Therapies just name FoW to clear those out as well. Their removal suite consists of Abrupt Decays so just drop Veteran Explorers and stuff with CMC > 3 on the board and you're fine.

Beside that, they tend to run Lilliana. Just drop a nice amount of creatures on the board or AD her, if you have it.

Shardless shouldn't be much of a problem. It should fold to our standard gameplan.

The problem is the absurd CA that can kill everything we put on the ground, and they have JTMS. Ancestral vision is the card that gets me dead usually.

[Ralf]

The problem is the absurd CA that can kill everything we put on the ground, and they have JTMS. Ancestral vision is the card that gets me dead usually.

Goyf being 5/6 (and a lot more many times) and laughing @Rhino is another thing.

[Echelon]

I guess I'm just an incredibly lucky bastard.

What do they run in their deck that can kill everything that hits the ground on our side..? That lone Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge..? I'm perfectly fine with an opponent paying 5 life to answer a Siege Rhino.

Seriously, if you keep putting stuff on the board with CMC < 4 mana vs. Shardless you're the reason why the MU is hard. The same goes for when you refuse to power out a Meren to keep looping that stupid Dryad Arbor to perma-Fog their Goyf until you draw into a real answer. The deck plays so few real threats (read: Tarmagoyf. End of list) it shouldn't be a problem to answer those. Scavenging Ooze often also is a fine answer to Goyf. You just have to be careful for their ADs when taking that route.

Also, be aggressive with Cabal Therapy (and discard in general) to strip away anything that might possibly become a problem in the future. On your first Therapy name FoW and strip away stuff from there.

[rubblekill]

I guess I'm just an incredibly lucky bastard.

What do they run in their deck that can kill everything that hits the ground on our side..? That lone Maelstrom Pulse and Toxic Deluge..? I'm perfectly fine with an opponent paying 5 life to answer a Siege Rhino.

Seriously, if you keep playing stuff < 4 mana vs. Shardless you're the reason why the MU is hard. The same goes for when you refuse to power out a Meren to keep looping that stupid Dryad Arbor to perma-Fog their Goyf. The deck plays so few real threats it shouldn't be a problem to answer those.

Also, be aggressive with Cabal Therapy (and discard in general) to strip away anything that might possibly become a problem in the future. On your first Therapy name FoW and strip away stuff from there.

They decay our equipments and pulse, (edict, bounce) deluge the rest. Decay in particular can keep us off having 2 dudes on the ground in front of Liliana.
Goyf is huge because of artifacts and/or pw in the gy, plus they have a fair amount of pw, and I find that pws are a problem for us. Maybe they are not, but that's my feeling.
I'm not saying the MU is impossible, it still is better than Miracles, but in my experience it has been a bit harder than you think it to be.

[Echelon]

They decay our equipments and pulse, (edict, bounce) deluge the rest. Decay in particular can keep us off having 2 dudes on the ground in front of Liliana.
Goyf is huge because of artifacts and/or pw in the gy, plus they have a fair amount of pw, and I find that pws are a problem for us. Maybe they are not, but that's my feeling.
I'm not saying the MU is impossible, it still is better than Miracles, but in my experience it has been a bit more hard than you think it to be.

Yeah... I don't play equipments... And your equipments are CMC 3... And SFM is a 2 CMC 1/2 creature... You're doing this to yourself, lol.

[rubblekill]

E: Mistakes were made.

[Tom4ik]

I have been playing a Bug midrange similar to shardless and the times I have played against Rhino fit (like Jbone) I have won due to the game usually comes down to discard like hymn cleaning out the hand. Having jace /lily is a big deal especially when you give them 2 lands. It is also just easier to gas back up having brainstorm and visions (or in my case truths) I still think shardless is a positive match up for any veteran explorer deck but like any ramp deck it can suffer from not having/getting countered/discarded the bombs that you need to pull ahead.

I am actually looking to pick therapy back up on a blue list. I am having some cravings for deed that only nic fit can fill. Anybody play a Bug list lately? Otherwise I can post the most recent list I used for thought.

[Echelon]

The first time I faced Shardless I went T1 Therapy on FoW, hit. T2 Land, Explorer, flashback Therapy on a known Hymn, double hit (he drew the second copy). The turn after that I drop a DRS and another Cabal Therapy on a known Lilliana. Hit and see Jace, immediately flashback Therapy taking that. Every once in a while this deck can be so unfair.

Game 2 I had a blind CT double hit on Tarmogoyf (my opponent waited with cracking a fetch on his first turn so I figured he wanted to wait and see if he could fetch up Bayou instead of an Underground Sea. And what costs 2 mana that bothers me and he would want a green source for? Yeah). My opponent was not having a good day, lol.

It was insane.

Rhino Fit has been wonderful vs. Shardless so far but again I'm an incredibly lucky bastard.

[rubblekill]

Sofi is definitely the correct sword even though im a fan of sobm (but bruh, wolves)

Ask and you shall receive.

http://i.imgur.com/HK0m5rp.jpg

[Ralf]

I am actually looking to pick therapy back up on a blue list. I am having some cravings for deed that only nic fit can fill. Anybody play a Bug list lately? Otherwise I can post the most recent list I used for thought.

Be my guest !

This list is extremely resilient to the actual meta but kinda very slowish...
But if you like giving no hope to your opponent, it is tailor made ;)

BUG Walker Fit by Ralf

1 Polluted Delta
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs

1 Thragtusk
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Wall of Blossoms
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Negate

1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

SB:
2 Extirpate
2 Flusterstorm
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thoughtseize
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague

Edit: Here are some explanations about all those choices:

Two years ago, I have built and played a Walker Fit list to some few very good finishes (a little before Mc Darby's version).

You can find the former list: here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=776376&viewfull=1#post776376)

At that time, the list was very "raw" and I needed more playtests, ideas etc...


1) Wall of Blossoms has replaced "Baleful Strix"

It tooks me quite a while to realize that there was a problem that I could not solve:

How to have access to U, G and B to be able to properly cast Baleful & Decay by T2 without fearing wasteland ?

=> One had to go and at that time Wall of Blossoms seemed to be a "not-so-bad" substitute.

Since the deck is a bit more focused on green and black, the early game is much much smoother.

Hundred of games later, Wall of Blossom proved to just be plain superior to Baleful:
- It does not die to bolt. So at least you can block once with it, and look at your opponent wasting a bolt to get rid of it.
- It doesn't grow Tarmo
- It blocks Thalia
- It is GSZable


2) E.W had to go.

The deck wants B,G & U as fast as possible. One of each.
I lost many games because of E.Witness "GG" mana cost.

Here again it took me quite a while to identify the issue and to solve it.


3) Ooze "All Stars"

The only difficult MUs at that time were any Punishing list and lands.
Actually adding another Ooze has fixed the 4c loam MU (Jund in a lesser extend) in the sense that we have a tool now to properly fight back.
Ooze is also a monster in so many MU and as we have access to so many creature removals, you will really be able to take full profit of him.


4) Ob Nixilis

I knew I wanted to play the guy. I wouldn't say it is "better" than Vraska, but geez, its ultimate is WOW.
I have killed with Vraska before, but one can handle 3 assassin's tokens.


5) Playtests

The deck has been properly playtested during Christmas break against the whole deck-to-beat section and a few T1,5 / T2 decks.
As long as you like being in the control seat, you won't be disappointed and might be very suprised.


If you have any questions, feel free to shoot !

Ralf

[Echelon]

Ashiok sucks balls and since when is Negate a thing..? I'd take Spell Pierce over Negate.

Also... No MB DRS to help power out all those Walkers/at least put your opponent on a 10 turn clock..? And don't you have better cards for your SB than DRS..?

Wall of Blossoms is useless. Yes, it replaces itself, but it can't block Delver and dies to Goyf/Batterskull/Gurmag Angler/opposing Rhinoes etc. At least Strix kills something whenever it blocks.

[Bobmans]

Negate has always been NicFit's allround counterspell. It's a hardcounter.

[Echelon]

Negate has always been NicFit's allround counterspell. It's a hardcounter.

Still sucks balls. And that's why I dislike blue Fit. Your opponents play 8 free counters while you durdle w/ keeping 2 mana open at all times. Or 3 whenever your opponent runs Daze. Or 4 when you expect Spell Pierce.

Talk about opportunity cost...

[Ricardio]

Ask and you shall receive.

http://i.imgur.com/HK0m5rp.jpg

thank you for making my morning!

I looked at my mtgo list last night and saw the sfm build I currently have is only 1 deed in the board with 3 sfm, 1 jitte, 1 sofi, 1 batterskull and 2 lingering souls.

[Arianrhod]

The way you beat Shardless is to win the skies and prioritize Vets. That's all there is to it. Zenith up / play as many Vets as you possibly can, get a huge mana advantage over them -- and then play large flying monsters. Baneslayer is the best option because of first strike (Strix), but AAoT is very strong too. We clog the board enough / sweep the board enough to deal with the Goyfs, and their Visions are offset through our repeated X-for-1s + our own natural CA, which is nothing to scoff at.

If you're worried about Shardless beyond any of this, run/sideboard 4-mana combat walkers. Elspeth Knight-Errant, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and the newest (4-mana) Gideon are all viable contenders. Gideon is probably the worst of these, but if you don't have access to older cards because new to format, he'll do for now. The key is you need planeswalkers that are just out of Abrupt Decay range, which also defend themselves and pressure Shardless's walkers.

Matt and I both favor 61 cards, as do several other prominent posters, and our disease has spread to most of the rest of the people in here (with some stalwart exceptions). Bottom line is that the < .5% you're missing out on a given card in your opener isn't worth losing the toolbox option for Zenith, and the moment you set off a single Veteran, you've already surpassed that negligible disadvantage.

Negate is fine. Ashiok is actually quite strong, although the format is too fast for her right now. None of these things LOOK good, I'll grant you -- but neither did Painful Truths, and now look at us. Blue versions run a lot of cards that look like garbage even to other Nic Fitters, but they get the job done because blue versions operate on a completely different axis. They're glorious bastards.

[Ralf]

Negate is fine. Ashiok is actually quite strong, although the format is too fast for her right now. None of these things LOOK good, I'll grant you -- but neither did Painful Truths, and now look at us. Blue versions run a lot of cards that look like garbage even to other Nic Fitters, but they get the job done because blue versions operate on a completely different axis. They're glorious bastards.

Actually negate in this particular build is very very fine.

You have tons of out to creature spells:
- 4 decay
- 3 deed
- 3 Liliana
- 3 Jace (+ cabal therapy for example)
- 2 Ob
- some creatures to Wall

The UU requirement for a standard counterspell is really pushing hard and something you cannot afford.
And you definitely cannot play mana conditional counterspells in a Nic Fit shell...This is asking to be punished really hard in control mirrors.

As aforementioned in the past, ashiok can be seen as Liliana n°4.
Its ability is unique and it does give you another wincon because this PW kills. Yes, it kills.
It has to be dealt with. Sometimes it will be a 3 turns fog and nothing else. Sometimes, it will runaway with the game.
Obviously he is weak in several MU that's why I am not playing more than one copy.

I think this version can be seen (or at least as I see it) as an ultimate control Nic Fit.
You won't win big. Most opponents will just concede to Liliana + Jace + OB (or whatever PW you have elected) in play. Because eventually you'll reach that point.
This doesn't mean you won't be able to win through Thragtusk or ooze beats. It will mostly depend on what you are trying to achieve, clock wise.

Sideboard is mainly dedicated to combo MU. DRS will mainly replace or complement Veteran by lowering the curve while providing a not so bad clock. Most PW would be sided out and you will just transform into a bear + counter/discard backup BUG shell.

For those interested, I can also provide sideboard tables.

Ralf.

[Ricardio]

I like to be 60 cards but I sometimes do 61 or in cube im a firm believer in 24/17 (41).
Each time I have played ashiok in legacy, I was already ahead and it did nothing to the board state. Definitely just meh.
I have no practice with negate in legacy but I imagine its good, not necessarily 4 of good but I don't play bug fit so theres that.

[Navsi]

Thinking about whether to include a CMC6 Zenith target in Scapewish again. Normally I go pretty all in on the combo, but I'm tempted to strengthen the backup plan a bit.

* Primeval Titan
+ Synergy with Wolf Run, Manlands, and Phyrexian Tower
+ Trample
- Colorless lands are awkward in Scapeshift, the manabase is already vulnerable
- Vulnerable to PtE/Swords and Liliana
- Does nothing about Marit Lage (can't really play Karakas or Maze of Ith)

* Broodmate Dragon
+ Two bodies - resistant to pretty much all removal
+ Flying slows down Marit Lage related death
- Token dies to just about anything (decay, my deeds, bounce)
- Slow clock compared to Titan+Wolf-Run

* Dragon Broodmother
+ Devour is an inbuilt sac outlet for Vets etc.
+ Stops Lage infinitely
+ Liliana is not happy
- Most vulnerable to Path/Swords

* Ruric Thar
+ Kills combo decks 100%
+ Reach, Vigilance are good
- 6 damage isn't too relevant if he eats removal straight away
- No evasion - Mother of Runes laughs at him
- Having to attack is pretty awkward on stalled boards

I'm leaning towards Primeval Titan at the moment but the second utility land (after Tower) feels pretty worrying.

[Ricardio]

Thinking about whether to include a CMC6 Zenith target in Scapewish again. Normally I go pretty all in on the combo, but I'm tempted to strengthen the backup plan a bit.

* Primeval Titan
+ Synergy with Wolf Run, Manlands, and Phyrexian Tower
+ Trample
- Colorless lands are awkward in Scapeshift, the manabase is already vulnerable
- Vulnerable to PtE/Swords and Liliana
- Does nothing about Marit Lage (can't really play Karakas or Maze of Ith)

* Broodmate Dragon
+ Two bodies - resistant to pretty much all removal
+ Flying slows down Marit Lage related death
- Token dies to just about anything (decay, my deeds, bounce)
- Slow clock compared to Titan+Wolf-Run

* Dragon Broodmother
+ Devour is an inbuilt sac outlet for Vets etc.
+ Stops Lage infinitely
+ Liliana is not happy
- Most vulnerable to Path/Swords

* Ruric Thar
+ Kills combo decks 100%
+ Reach, Vigilance are good
- 6 damage isn't too relevant if he eats removal straight away
- No evasion - Mother of Runes laughs at him
- Having to attack is pretty awkward on stalled boards

I'm leaning towards Primeval Titan at the moment but the second utility land (after Tower) feels pretty worrying.

If you play prime time, cant you justify a single karakas? Also Prime Time best 6 cmc green bro.

[Bobmans]

If you play prime time, cant you justify a single karakas? Also Prime Time best 6 cmc green bro.

No, Karakas in Scape is pretty bad, it doesn't even tap for a color the deck uses. Every other utility land outside of Valakut (obviously) is pretty useless.
PrimeTime helps the most in the main goal > Kill with Valakut.

Edit: Ruric-Thar is pretty descent, but often you never get to the point where he actually sees play. Against non-combo you really have to be careful when to play it, since a slight misplay can cause it be into your opponents advantage.

[Ricardio]

No, Karakas in Scape is pretty bad, it doesn't even tap for a color the deck uses. Every other utility land outside of Valakut (obviously) is pretty useless.
PrimeTime helps the most in the main goal > Kill with Valakut.

Edit: Ruric-Thar is pretty descent, but often you never get to the point where he actually sees play. Against non-combo you really have to be careful when to play it, since a slight misplay can cause it be into your opponents advantage.

Jund fit CANNOT deal with lage outside of blocking with a flier to buy time. A single karakas out of the board would be more than fine if your meta calls for it.
KWR is utility and it is not useless. I have won many games off the heels of making a creature huge and winning because my opponent didn't know what the land was.

I agree with ruric thar reasoning. I advise against playing him since we just have much better options.

[Bobmans]

Jund fit CANNOT deal with lage outside of blocking with a flier to buy time. A single karakas out of the board would be more than fine if your meta calls for it.
KWR is utility and it is not useless. I have won many games off the heels of making a creature huge and winning because my opponent didn't know what the land was.

I agree with ruric thar reasoning. I advise against playing him since we just have much better options.
Lands plays Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation and Exploration. Karakas will never meet Marit Lage (at least not against experienced players).

Utility lands don't fit ScapeWish.dec. You want to develop boardpresence on your coloured manabase. The faster, the better. Going for KWR or manlands polutes your manabase in such a way that is stands between your development towards combo'ing with Scapeshift. Plus it requires dedication on your decklist, meaning there is less efficient cards in there. Huntmaster, for example, has various functionality and helps to transition into your kill.

[Ricardio]

Lands plays Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation and Exploration. Karakas will never meet Marit Lage (at least not against experienced players).

Utility lands don't fit ScapeWish.dec. You want to develop boardpresence on your coloured manabase. The faster, the better. Going for KWR or manlands polutes your manabase in such a way that is stands between your development towards combo'ing with Scapeshift. Plus it requires dedication on your decklist, meaning there is less efficient cards in there. Huntmaster, for example, has various functionality and helps to transition into your kill.

Assuming the worst doesn't make for a strong game plan or mentality.

I understand the necessity of a critical mass of lands that do something but if you want a 6cmc gsz target, prime time is the best back up that also caters to your combo. KWR is also an insane backup plan.

[Bobmans]

Assuming the worst doesn't make for a strong game plan or mentality.


If "worst" was only what one could call it. Karakas is the best option vs Marit on paper. But IRL it ain't simply because how RG Lands plays out. Marit Lage is inevitable. It has nothing to do with my mentality, it is reality.

Edit: The RG Lands player will most likely create the Marit Lage on your end step. IF you have Karakas in play he will obviously tap it with Port or just waste it, or he won't make Marit Lage. Say you have Karakas on your hand and you have 20+ life he can either setup an immediate 2nd DD+Stage via Loam + Exploration because he anticipates the Karakas option (or Swords/Path) or one swing brings you in Punishing Fire range. All this is not really worst case, it is just every game like this against that horrible deck.

[Ricardio]

If "worst" was only what one could call it. Karakas is the best option vs Marit on paper. But IRL it ain't simply because how RG Lands plays out. Marit Lage is inevitable. It has nothing to do with my mentality, it is reality.

Edit: The RG Lands player will most likely create the Marit Lage on your end step. IF you have Karakas in play he will obviously tap it with Port or just waste it, or he won't make Marit Lage. Say you have Karakas on your hand and you have 20+ life he can either setup an immediate 2nd DD+Stage via Loam + Exploration because he anticipates the Karakas option (or Swords/Path) or one swing brings you in Punishing Fire range. All this is not really worst case, it is just every game like this against that horrible deck.

So the lands game plan is dodge? outside of needle im not sure what you can be doing to fend it off. Ideally, you needle stage and surgical fires so they cannot win.
If its that bad, play blood moon and decay it when you want to scapeshift.

[Bobmans]

So the lands game plan is dodge? outside of needle im not sure what you can be doing to fend it off. Ideally, you needle stage and surgical fires so they cannot win.
If its that bad, play blood moon and decay it when you want to scapeshift.

Surgical Fires/Depths when they dredge it. Blood Moon puts you into a good spot (Therapy on Krosan Grip), but with 2/3 Moons in a non-blue deck it still pretty random. Take Crop/Gamble with Therapy/Thougtseize. Decay Exploration/manabond (but manabond is pretty much game over anyway). Get 20+ life and drop Liliana after the first swing. Decay Molten Vortex. Junk obviously has Path to Exile, so it becomes a race really. Scavenging Ooze with 3 or 5+ thoughness is also pretty decent. Deathrite Shaman also decent, but often catches PFire. Grab Veteran Explorer and Fetch basics only. Dryad Militant can be decent as well if they start dredging. Needle on Stage helps. All in all you got some things going on, but it still is very hard. You need some turns and luck (and they need some badluck/draws).

RG Lands is the most difficult match-up for NicFit.

[Ricardio]

Surgical Fires/Depths when they dredge it. Blood Moon puts you into a good spot (Therapy on Krosan Grip), but with 2/3 Moons in a non-blue deck it still pretty random. Take Crop/Gamble with Therapy/Thougtseize. Decay Exploration/manabond (but manabond is pretty much game over anyway). Get 20+ life and drop Liliana after the first swing. Decay Molten Vortex. Junk obviously has Path to Exile, so it becomes a race really. Scavenging Ooze with 3 or 5+ thoughness is also pretty decent. Deathrite Shaman also decent, but often catches PFire. Grab Veteran Explorer and Fetch basics only. Dryad Militant can be decent as well if they start dredging. Needle on Stage helps. All in all you got some things going on, but it still is very hard. You need some turns and luck (and they need some badluck/draws).

RG Lands is the most difficult match-up for NicFit.

those are all indeed options.

I disagree that it is the most difficult matchup but it is certainly not a good one.

[sdematt]

Surgical Fires/Depths when they dredge it. Blood Moon puts you into a good spot (Therapy on Krosan Grip), but with 2/3 Moons in a non-blue deck it still pretty random. Take Crop/Gamble with Therapy/Thougtseize. Decay Exploration/manabond (but manabond is pretty much game over anyway). Get 20+ life and drop Liliana after the first swing. Decay Molten Vortex. Junk obviously has Path to Exile, so it becomes a race really. Scavenging Ooze with 3 or 5+ thoughness is also pretty decent. Deathrite Shaman also decent, but often catches PFire. Grab Veteran Explorer and Fetch basics only. Dryad Militant can be decent as well if they start dredging. Needle on Stage helps. All in all you got some things going on, but it still is very hard. You need some turns and luck (and they need some badluck/draws).

RG Lands is the most difficult match-up for NicFit.

Agreed. Needle and Surgical do good work. Siege Rhino and Sigarda are one of the few ways to interact with lands in general.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Ill also do a bunch more replying tomorrow,since I have a two hout boat ride with nothing to do.

[Ricardio]

Ill also do a bunch more replying tomorrow,since I have a two hout boat ride with nothing to do.

Boat ride? Where are we going?

I work during the day so I lurk most of the morning and afternoon

Also: Is there an update to the cloudpost waste nic fit deck???? That list made my nether regions wiggle.

[Bobmans]

Update: 16-04-2016 - Baseline list for metagaming spreadsheet.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan // Knight of the Reliquary

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Anguished Unmaking // Vindicate // Maelstrom Pulse

2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage // Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Choke // Tsunami




Sidetrack 28-03-'16
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman

[uncletiggy]

@bobmans- our lists are virtually the same give or take 5 cards in the main . My question for you is how good has dromoka been I have a thragusk in that slot and have been very happy with him being my second resilent bomb the other glaring difference is the lack of a catch-all im playing a pulse where you have the 4th path. aside from those differences im playing the deathrites and teeg over the courser nissa and meren. nissa seems good and i may have to try her over the second deathrite.

[Bobmans]

Dromoka is not set in stone for me. I do like the beefy flying body with lifelink. With 4 Rhino i did not feel the need to include Thragtusk, especially considering the list runs Meren, EWitness and phyrexian Tower as ways of looping them.
Granted that the combination of 4 Veteran Explorer with Courser and Nissa the deck smoothly and very consistently ramps up to the point where i wanted something bigger. Really DLD was the "best" fit, but i keep my eyes open for something more juicy.
Tbh i still have to try Empath+Karador, but shipment from Japan takes a while. Also this list is more about efficiency then going tech (i do prefer tech tho).
DRS is a really nice card, but i often found it just a tad inreliable and felt one step short of overloading the game. Veteran/Nissa/Courser ramp way more reliable, while Scooze is still the better gravehate (Scooze sometimes amazes me and i forget how well a card it is). He also beats DRS stand-off's. I moved DRS to the board rather then playing Carpet because DRS is really solid against Matchup's like Reanimator and Storm.
Then i have 4 Path and 0 Pulse. Path is what makes Junk superiour to other splashes when dealing with decks that go bigger, Reanimate/MUD/Eldrazi, etc. Plus i want to play aggresive on the fair matchup. Ramp and keep the board clear. With DRS out of the way i van also play aggresive with the Deeds. Because i do, Painful Truths becomes a better card and one thing that is important in this meta (which became clear to me the other day by someone elses remark), is the ability to keep pace with Shardless in terms of advantage. Going for a Thruths and finding Path to Exile means you are often able to cast the Path right away to. So because sum it up for Path over Pulse is that the list overloads in terms of creature removal that the added reach of Pulse was not needed.
I Also considered Liliana, but having so much card advantage means your less often hellbend.

[Navsi]

Re: Dealing with Lands as Jund

Do you think Dead // Gone is worth it, probably out of the board? It bounces Lage and Dead is reasonable in matchups where you just want removal (kills Mirran Crusader which is nice). I guess our board is already rather cramped if we're playing Burning Wish, but it seems like it could be a reasonable choice.

[sdematt]

Re: Dealing with Lands as Jund

Do you think Dead // Gone is worth it, probably out of the board? It bounces Lage and Dead is reasonable in matchups where you just want removal (kills Mirran Crusader which is nice). I guess our board is already rather cramped if we're playing Burning Wish, but it seems like it could be a reasonable choice.

I don't think Lands represents enough of the metagame to truly worry about it with that many slots. I think you can do good work with Needles, and have applicability in other matchups. If you NEED to wipe them out, run Ruination or something.

[Ralf]

Re: Dealing with Lands as Jund

Do you think Dead // Gone is worth it, probably out of the board? It bounces Lage and Dead is reasonable in matchups where you just want removal (kills Mirran Crusader which is nice). I guess our board is already rather cramped if we're playing Burning Wish, but it seems like it could be a reasonable choice.

Actually, I played against land twice during a GP a few years ago, with scapeshift and I was not prepared to face such a deck.

I won both 2/0.

I think you don't need to devote space for this MU (aside the usual Surgical/Ooze).
Imho, what really matters is speed.

Land & Scape are both a combo deck in a sense.
Both matches, I was able to take a hit from Marit Lage since Thragtusk and Huntmaster gain you life and we don't have much fetchlands.
So getting over 20 should be your priority.

And I just scapeshift'd him back the very next turn.

Was I lucky ? Maybe or not.

I think you should rather focus on your own velocity.
Will you be able to scape on T4 or T5 ?

Furthermore, the "velocity" thing happened quite a few other times against another deck: dredge.

My two cents.

[Echelon]

@Bobmans: Wouldn't you rather run Qasali Pridemage over Reclamation Sage? It has some application vs. Infect where Rec doesn't. Also plays incredibly well with Meren.

You're a brave man by the way, running AD over Deathrite. I imagine you have a good timing keeping your opponents' board clear.

How has the Nissa been for you?

[Bobmans]

@Bobmans: Wouldn't you rather run Qasali Pridemage over Reclamation Sage? It has some application vs. Infect where Rec doesn't. Also plays incredibly well with Meren.

You're a brave man by the way, running AD over Deathrite. I imagine you have a good timing keeping your opponents' board clear.

How has the Nissa been for you?

Qasali vs RecSage. For what they do, Qasali deserves it's place. So i change that.

Not sure what your saying about AD/DRS.

Nissa has been awesome. Sometimes it is just a 2/2 body that fetches a Forest (fixing mana for say Rhino), Sometimes you don't have a Forest left in your library and then it shuffles for SDT. BUT most of the times you get it when your able to flip it the same turn. Nissa lands, flips and from there on you can make a 4/4 or when you have board presence you can start +1 to basicly draw a card each turn. On an empty board you suddenly are back in the game with this one. Between Courser and Nissa i'd say: Courser boosts Early/Midgame and Nissa boosts Mid/Lategame. Both of them just smooth out your development in the game. All in all, Nissa is a really good card and might even be better then Courser if you want to compare the two. Flipped Nissa also dodges your own Deed.

[Ricardio]

Qasali vs RecSage. For what they do, Qasali deserves it's place. So i change that.

Not sure what your saying about AD/DRS.

Nissa has been awesome. Sometimes it is just a 2/2 body that fetches a Forest (fixing mana for say Rhino), Sometimes you don't have a Forest left in your library and then it shuffles for SDT. BUT most of the times you get it when your able to flip it the same turn. Nissa lands, flips and from there on you can make a 4/4 or when you have board presence you can start +1 to basicly draw a card each turn. On an empty board you suddenly are back in the game with this one. Between Courser and Nissa i'd say: Courser boosts Early/Midgame and Nissa boosts Mid/Lategame. Both of them just smooth out your development in the game. All in all, Nissa is a really good card and might even be better then Courser if you want to compare the two. Flipped Nissa also dodges your own Deed.

I haven't played nissa online because 9 tix for her seems unreasonable but my limits dealings irl standard with her have been positive. Maybe if I can justify her.

As for DRS and AD, I play 2/4 because they are so good in the bloo online meta.

Are they ever coming out with legacy leagues on mtgo? that would help a lot.

[Arianrhod]

Actually, I played against land twice during a GP a few years ago, with scapeshift and I was not prepared to face such a deck.

I won both 2/0.

I think you don't need to devote space for this MU (aside the usual Surgical/Ooze).
Imho, what really matters is speed.

Land & Scape are both a combo deck in a sense.
Both matches, I was able to take a hit from Marit Lage since Thragtusk and Huntmaster gain you life and we don't have much fetchlands.
So getting over 20 should be your priority.

And I just scapeshift'd him back the very next turn.

Was I lucky ? Maybe or not.

I think you should rather focus on your own velocity.
Will you be able to scape on T4 or T5 ?

Furthermore, the "velocity" thing happened quite a few other times against another deck: dredge.

My two cents.

FWIW, this is how I used to beat Lands on Scapewish as well. This is not an isolated thing -- it's our best gameplan. Sometimes it's quick enough, sometimes it's not.

[Bobmans]

FWIW, this is how I used to beat Lands on Scapewish as well. This is not an isolated thing -- it's our best gameplan. Sometimes it's quick enough, sometimes it's not.
I am wondering on which Lands version we are all talking about; Lands has several versions. Which version you play againsr says a lot of how difficult your matchup will be. RG lands, RUG Lands, Jund Depths, Turbo Depths and to some level Aggro Loam and Dark Maverick. All Marit Lage, but very different in playstyle.

[Ricardio]

I am wondering on which Lands version we are all talking about; Lands has several versions. Which version you play againsr says a lot of how difficult your matchup will be. RG lands, RUG Lands, Jund Depths, Turbo Depths and to some level Aggro Loam and Dark Maverick. All Marit Lage, but very different in playstyle.

I don't think the strategy changes all that much. Shift as fast as humanly possible so they can't 20 you.

[Bobmans]

I don't think the strategy changes all that much. Shift as fast as humanly possible so they can't 20 you.
Actually they do differ. One of my friends is a very dedicated lands player. In the past he played Jund Depths, running Lili, AD and Smallpox. The deck is pretty slow and fairly decent to beat. Then he played Turbo Depths for a while, which is based on blue and runs Hexmage/Crop rotation. It was incredibly fast, it was kind of easy to fight against an actual creature (Hexmage). Then he switched to RG Lands right after that list got some attention... because RG focusses a lot more on the combo it is so much faster and more resilient then the other versio.
Last a friend of mine plated PFire Maverick with DD combo. Mother of Runes + KotR made it a difficult match-up but not undoable. The problem was that, while fighting on ground combat, it could snipe in a Marit Lage nearly out of nowhere (eot offcourse).
I play with those guys on weekly basis and every game feels like an uphill battle, but still there is a clear difference in which version is harder to not lose from. RG Lands is the winner in thus regard. I'd rather play Slaughter Games against ANT or SnT...

[Ricardio]

Actually they do differ. One of my friends is a very dedicated lands player. In the past he played Jund Depths, running Lili, AD and Smallpox. The deck is pretty slow and fairly decent to beat. Then he played Turbo Depths for a while, which is based on blue and runs Hexmage/Crop rotation. It was incredibly fast, it was kind of easy to fight against an actual creature (Hexmage). Then he switched to RG Lands right after that list got some attention... because RG focusses a lot more on the combo it is so much faster and more resilient then the other versio.
Last a friend of mine plated PFire Maverick with DD combo. Mother of Runes + KotR made it a difficult match-up but not undoable. The problem was that, while fighting on ground combat, it could snipe in a Marit Lage nearly out of nowhere (eot offcourse).
I play with those guys on weekly basis and every game feels like an uphill battle, but still there is a clear difference in which version is harder to not lose from. RG Lands is the winner in thus regard. I'd rather play Slaughter Games against ANT or SnT...

The angles you fight and the threats are slightly different but the looming 20/20 is the same. Fight through the hate, don't die, and shoot them from atop you volcano.
Games can't name lands sadly but you can surgical depths.

[Arianrhod]

I still don't understand why we've spent literal pages talking about this. It's a bad matchup, move on. If you want to consistently beat Lands, play a different deck.

[Bobmans]

play a different deck.

Just don't. ;-p

[Ricardio]

Just don't. ;-p

BUG control. Its fun, trust me.

So in keeping with the nic fit theme, I played a bit against the BGwaste fit list and it seemed underpowered for not actually playing a third color. Wail seemed like a sb card at best. I am personally of the mind that currently, Junk is the best followed by Jund because BUG just wants to out value until your opponent concedes but that's not a real win condition. Skillerhino is still very good. Jund seems like a huge grind and the shift version has to fight through counter spells with none of their own which feels bad. For now, I think I will bring my laptop to fnm and play a daily while I wait for my friends to fight through the new eldrazi meta. I am not confident in my sfm junk build so I will probably run back 3 truths/deeds in the 4 Skillerhino build. Also is anyone still working on the 4color version? it looked entertaining but beyond greedy.

[pettdan]

I'm generally more interested in discussing bad matchups than good matchups, at least relative to others. Suppose you can do changes to your deck that keeps it good in the good matchups, but improves your bad matchups. I think that's the most interesting discussions to be had. Well, finding new synergies to base a deck upon is also interesting... But there is need and room for both.

Or to put it differently. Suppose you have several versions of Nic Fit that have similar sucess in the good matchups. If one of those versions has a significantly better matchup in one of the deck's worst matchups, then that is a pretty good upside of that version, isn't it? For comparison, there is a lot of discussion about which the best 6 CMC creature is, I enjoy reading those discussions too but they seem less strategically important.

[Tom4ik]

The problem with lands decks is that the match-up is very much slanted game 1. To make it winnable post board requires too many specific SB slots. If you have red you can use something like Blood moon to try to steal a game. Needles also can help. Rhino fit decks probably have the best lands deck because they have path which doesnt give life and with rhino probably the fastest clock in the abstract.

Edit: I will also admit to having joined the darkside of Bug midrange/control

[Ricardio]

The problem with lands decks is that the match-up is very much slanted game 1. To make it winnable post board requires too many specific SB slots. If you have red you can use something like Blood moon to try to steal a game. Needles also can help. Rhino fit decks probably have the best lands deck because they have path which doesnt give life and with rhino probably the fastest clock in the abstract.

Edit: I will also admit to having joined the darkside of Bug midrange/control

White gives the tools to deal with it like karakas, path, vindicate and skillerhino. quick clock and outs to an eot 20/20

YAY BUG control

[Dadadot]

So, thoughts on meren after getting to play her for a few month?
f.e. synergys, strength, weaknesses, slots to put her in, cards which rival her, funny or sad anecdotes, general feelings recarding the card etc.

[rubblekill]

So, thoughts on meren after getting to play her for a few month?
f.e. synergys, strength, weaknesses, slots to put her in, cards which rival her, funny or sad anecdotes, general feelings recarding the card etc.

Brutal against non white decks, occasionally decent otherwise. A must of a one of, in my opinion.

@all, laugh at me now: in my testing I'm having decent success with abzan charm as a 2 of (non sfm list). Being an instant, and a flexible one, helps us (and deals with lage, since it seems that this is the new main topic of the thread).

[Bobmans]

I found Dryad Arbor very awesome next to Meren.
Edit: if you land Meren, this will put Arbor into play creating a pseudo fog effect in a lot of cases.
Edit2; Arbor / Veteran recycling is the shortrange effect. In the long run you start to recycle Eternal Witness or Siege Rhino for maximum value. The fact that you can always have a card back regardless of counters is huge. It will generate card advantage and quality.

[Arianrhod]

Brutal against non white decks, occasionally decent otherwise. A must of a one of, in my opinion.

@all, laugh at me now: in my testing I'm having decent success with abzan charm as a 2 of (non sfm list). Being an instant, and a flexible one, helps us (and deals with lage, since it seems that this is the new main topic of the thread).

I've always liked Abzan Charm, actually. I can't always find room for it, especially with Truths existing now, but the card is definitely strong enough to be on the list of considerations.

[Echelon]

So, thoughts on meren after getting to play her for a few month?
f.e. synergys, strength, weaknesses, slots to put her in, cards which rival her, funny or sad anecdotes, general feelings recarding the card etc.

I believe I've said enough when it comes to Meren. She's downright nuts. As for funny anecdotes: Think Meren + Qasali Pridemage vs. MUD and all other sorts of recurring shenanigans.

Vs. combo & white it loses some, vs. everything else she's great.

When your opponent boards in graveyard hate to deal with Meren, just fall back to smashing face with Rhino. Works like a charm!

[rubblekill]

I've always liked Abzan Charm, actually. I can't always find room for it, especially with Truths existing now, but the card is definitely strong enough to be on the list of considerations.

I hate pt because it's a sorcery. I like the charm more because it's an instant. It's a bold claim I know.

[Bobmans]

Just a story here. Today i had the most incredible play EVER with NicFit, against Reanimator.
Game1, T1 i play a savannah into Explorer. He drops a Iona in White on his turn while i hold a Path. I untap and draw a Phyrexian Tower. I sac the Explorer and GSZ into Courser of Kruphix cus i wanted to filter the top hoping to find Karakas (KotR might have been good here, but cornercase). I see a Decay on top. He then drops an Inkwell Leviathan and me 2nd Explorer from his Exhume. I untap, sac the Explorer for shuffle before draw and find Pernicous Deeds. Im at 15 and count the impact from his turn and my mana. When i sac the Courser for Tower next turn im at 9 mana. So i play the Deed, no counter. Sweet. He attacks for 14 and i untap, drop a land putting me on 2, attack with Courser and blow deed for 9!! destroying Iona and Inkwell, WTF. He gets nothing on his turn and i draw a P.Truths. I draw 1 card by paying 1 generic and 2 black. I draw a GSZ! for Scooze with 2 green open. He does not find Exhume on his turn with 3 creatures in the grave while he dies next turn from my Scooze.
Omg never stopped to think once that Pernicious Deed was an out, but i just kept playing.

Morale of the story; Never give up.

[jbone2016]

I'm probably cutting Primetime from Punishing Rhinos for something else.....Meren.....Baloth....3rd rhino....
Sigarda seems too hard to cast. Grave Titan seems reasonable.

[Fatal]

Just a story here. Today i had the most incredible play EVER with NicFit, against Reanimator.
Game1, T1 i play a savannah into Explorer. He drops a Iona in White on his turn while i hold a Path. I untap and draw a Phyrexian Tower. I sac the Explorer and GSZ into Courser of Kruphix cus i wanted to filter the top hoping to find Karakas (KotR might have been good here, but cornercase). I see a Decay on top. He then drops an Inkwell Leviathan and me 2nd Explorer from his Exhume. I untap, sac the Explorer for shuffle before draw and find Pernicous Deeds. Im at 15 and count the impact from his turn and my mana. When i sac the Courser for Tower next turn im at 9 mana. So i play the Deed, no counter. Sweet. He attacks for 14 and i untap, drop a land putting me on 2, attack with Courser and blow deed for 9!! destroying Iona and Inkwell, WTF. He gets nothing on his turn and i draw a P.Truths. I draw 1 card by paying 1 generic and 2 black. I draw a GSZ! for Scooze with 2 green open. He does not find Exhume on his turn with 3 creatures in the grave while he dies next turn from my Scooze.
Omg never stopped to think once that Pernicious Deed was an out, but i just kept playing.

Morale of the story; Never give up.

Had similar play but with my Post Nic Fit vs S&T. G1 I dropped Deed my turn 3. He S&T in Emrakul, I put Titan (didn't had Karakas yet MD) found 2 posts, then my turn untap, play explorer tower it and blow Deed for 15 destroying Emrakul :-)

[jbone2016]

Took down a small IQ today with punishing rhinos

Main 61:
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Siege Rhino
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Painful Truths

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run

3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain

2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

Board
1 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 From the Ashes
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Beat Miracles in 2.
Beat Shardless Bug in 2.
Beat Elves in 3. (Stupid turn 2 Ruric Thar)
Beat RUG Delver in 2.
Beat D + T in 3 close games. (got to painful truths for 4, thanks thalia!)
Beat R/W Painter in 3.
Split with Mud.

[Bobmans]

Took down a small IQ today with punishing rhinos

Beat Miracles in 2.
Beat Shardless Bug in 2.
Beat Elves in 3. (Stupid turn 2 Ruric Thar)
Beat RUG Delver in 2.
Beat D + T in 3 close games. (got to painful truths for 4, thanks thalia!)
Beat R/W Painter in 3.
Split with Mud.

Gratz on your result. Awesome meta for Punishing Fire and lucky with the MUD split. How was the Baloth? Edit: And i am specifically interested in the Shardless MU, how did that go?

[Navsi]

I'm going to a local tournament this Saturday, going to be taking Scapewish. I almost have Abzan built but I'm not quite there yet - I think I prefer having the combo kill in my back pocket anyway, to be honest.

Anyway, I'm currently looking at this list. There are a few things I'm not certain about, though.

10 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

28 Noncreature Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Slaughter Games

23 Lands:
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

15 Sideboard:
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip


- I'd like to run Recurring Nightmare since it's so good with Meren, but I'm not sure I have enough creatures to support it.
- A six-drop could be nice, but I've always found they sit in my hand for a lot of the time, and if I get to the point where I can cast it, I can often just Scapeshift for lethal anyway. If I was going to run one, it'd probably end up being Broodmate Dragon for Recurring Nightmare shenanigans or Primeval Titan (adding a Wolf Run somewhere).
- A second two-drop could be good, probably Scavenging Ooze. I've never been too impressed by the Ooze, though. I don't see the point in putting it in the SB when I could just play Surgical in the slot, so it'd be a maindeck drop. I don't feel like it gets going quickly enough, and whenever I put it in it underperforms for a tournament then gets cut again.
- I can probably afford to cut one copy of Scapeshift and potentially one copy of either Decay or Deed, since I'm playing a copy of Diabolic Intent.
- If I'm playing Diabolic Intent and Meren, and potentially Recurring Nightmare, Dryad Arbor starts to look a lot more appealing. It's pretty awkward with my wishboard / sweepers though. Also I get significantly more vulnerable to graveyard hate.

[Echelon]

I'm going to a local tournament this Saturday, going to be taking Scapewish. I almost have Abzan built but I'm not quite there yet - I think I prefer having the combo kill in my back pocket anyway, to be honest.

Anyway, I'm currently looking at this list. There are a few things I'm not certain about, though.

...

- I'd like to run Recurring Nightmare since it's so good with Meren, but I'm not sure I have enough creatures to support it.

...

- I can probably afford to cut one copy of Scapeshift and potentially one copy of either Decay or Deed, since I'm playing a copy of Diabolic Intent.
- If I'm playing Diabolic Intent and Meren, and potentially Recurring Nightmare, Dryad Arbor starts to look a lot more appealing. It's pretty awkward with my wishboard / sweepers though. Also I get significantly more vulnerable to graveyard hate.

You shouldn't care about a Dryad Arbor dying to a sweeper, it's not that important. Also, don't care about GY hate. It's not your most important angle of attack and you can still win without it. With that being said, between GSZ, Meren and Diabolic Intent (and whatever else I'm skipping over for now) Arbor does a lot of work at a very low cost.

The point of Meren is that she's good without another creature on the field where Recurring Nightmare is mostly a risk in that aspect. Don't bother with Nightmare. Meren lets you pull ahead, starting from an empty board if need be. Nightmare doesn't really generate CA but just cycles creatures (whilst consuming a lot of mana).

Scavenging Ooze is a house. It has singlehandedly won me several otherwise unwinnable games. The upside of Ooze vs. Surgical is that you can GSZ for it, making it much easier to find. It shines most vs. other slow decks that like to use their graveyard and MUs with opposing Deathrites. At the cost of keeping G open every turn you can fuck with their plans so badly, it's hilarious.

[Ricardio]

I'm going to a local tournament this Saturday, going to be taking Scapewish. I almost have Abzan built but I'm not quite there yet - I think I prefer having the combo kill in my back pocket anyway, to be honest.

Anyway, I'm currently looking at this list. There are a few things I'm not certain about, though.

10 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

28 Noncreature Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Slaughter Games

23 Lands:
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

15 Sideboard:
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip


- I'd like to run Recurring Nightmare since it's so good with Meren, but I'm not sure I have enough creatures to support it.
- A six-drop could be nice, but I've always found they sit in my hand for a lot of the time, and if I get to the point where I can cast it, I can often just Scapeshift for lethal anyway. If I was going to run one, it'd probably end up being Broodmate Dragon for Recurring Nightmare shenanigans or Primeval Titan (adding a Wolf Run somewhere).
- A second two-drop could be good, probably Scavenging Ooze. I've never been too impressed by the Ooze, though. I don't see the point in putting it in the SB when I could just play Surgical in the slot, so it'd be a maindeck drop. I don't feel like it gets going quickly enough, and whenever I put it in it underperforms for a tournament then gets cut again.
- I can probably afford to cut one copy of Scapeshift and potentially one copy of either Decay or Deed, since I'm playing a copy of Diabolic Intent.
- If I'm playing Diabolic Intent and Meren, and potentially Recurring Nightmare, Dryad Arbor starts to look a lot more appealing. It's pretty awkward with my wishboard / sweepers though. Also I get significantly more vulnerable to graveyard hate.

No wood elf mb?
I think you are right, nightmare needs more creatures and as incredible as it looks on paper, it feels out of place in the current meta.
Prime time adds to your game plan. seems like the auto include.
Scooze is definitely good but can be swept up in deeds.
I can see dropping a single shift but you need some number of decays. Personally, im a huge fan of 4 because I want everything dead and none of it countered. I am also not sure how much delver you plan on seeing.
By going into this intent, meren, nightmare route: you are veering pretty far away from what your deck is supposed to do. Stick to the plan: infiltrate the dealers, find the supplier.

[Navsi]

No wood elf mb?
I prefer both Nissa and Witness to Wood Elves, and I don't really want to run any more ramp-only creatures than I have to. It's probably next on the list if I want to add more only-mana creatures after the Dryad Arbor.


I can see dropping a single shift but you need some number of decays. Personally, im a huge fan of 4 because I want everything dead and none of it countered. I am also not sure how much delver you plan on seeing.
I am always uncomfortable running large numbers of Decays because they do very little to some decks. I also got beaten to death by a Dryad Arbor after extracting all of a Loam player's Punishing Fires once, which may be colouring my opinion here.


You shouldn't care about a Dryad Arbor dying to a sweeper, it's not that important. Also, don't care about GY hate. It's not your most important angle of attack and you can still win without it. With that being said, between GSZ, Meren and Diabolic Intent (and whatever else I'm skipping over for now) Arbor does a lot of work at a very low cost.

The point of Meren is that she's good without another creature on the field where Recurring Nightmare is mostly a risk in that aspect. Don't bother with Nightmare. Meren lets you pull ahead, starting from an empty board if need be. Nightmare doesn't really generate CA but just cycles creatures (whilst consuming a lot of mana).
I think it's going to be +1 Dryad Arbor but leaving the Recurring Nightmare out for now, then.


Scavenging Ooze is a house. It has singlehandedly won me several otherwise unwinnable games. The upside of Ooze vs. Surgical is that you can GSZ for it, making it much easier to find. It shines most vs. other slow decks that like to use their graveyard and MUs with opposing Deathrites. At the cost of keeping G open every turn you can fuck with their plans so badly, it's hilarious.
I think the issue I've had with Scavenging Ooze is that I try to use it against decks that are too fast for it (i.e. Reanimator) - I don't know if it's so relevant in Scapeshift simply because slow graveyard decks and Deathrite decks are already matchups I'm relatively happy to see, since I can happily grind away for a few turns, clean them of counterspells and then throw a volcano at them.

For what it's worth, the decks I'm expecting to see most of are:

- Miracles
- Storm
- Reanimator
- Loam/Lands
- Blade variants
- Death and Taxes (though I always seem to dodge this for some reason)
- Shardless
- Maybe some Delver
- Miscellanous combo decks (Show and Tell, Painter, TinFins)

[Ralf]

@ Navsi:

You should have a look here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=925393&viewfull=1#post925393) or at Arian's primer.


Here are a few comments (no offense intended here):


1) You run too few ramp creatures and you should be playing 24 lands / or you run too many Scape:

You have elected to play a heavy "Scape" oriented build (3 scape MD) and yet you are running far too few ramp creatures.
Arian's initial list with 3 Scapes featured:
- 4 Veteran
- 2 Sakura
- 2 Wood Elves

With your list you won't be able to fire consistently a Scape by T4/T5.


2) Decay / Scape / Meren:

As much as I get the appeal for Decay, Meren and Scape in the same deck; I truly think you are losing focus here.

Decay & Meren are to play grindy games.
Scape is to play a combo deck.

IMHO, you are diluting your goal.


3) Conclusion:

Choose your side !
Either you play a Scape deck with a midrange backup or you play a midrange deck with a combo backup. But you cannot play both of these worlds.
You'll end up too many times with Scape in hand without 7 lands to close the game or you'll end up playing a midrange game without the proper tools to close your deal.

My two cents.

[Navsi]

Decay & Meren are to play grindy games.
Scape is to play a combo deck.



I'm not particularly trying to play a grindy game. I think you're probably right that Scape wants to be a 2/1 main/side split, but I'm not so sure about the Decay and Meren idea.

- I'm going to want at least one Zenith target at 1-5 mana
- For a 4-mana target, Huntmaster is great for aggro decks, but I want something that doesn't die to Bolt, Pyroclasm, Hydroblast and Decay, as well as my own Deeds.
- Obstinate Baloth overlaps with Huntmaster and Thragtusk, and Thrun doesn't have enough board presence
- I'm basically on Meren because she's just a good value body that's difficult to remove.

Decay, along with the rest of the non-ramp stuff, is a concession to the fact that the deck is not a 'fast combo' deck in the same way that Storm or whatever is. I can't just race to combo (without a god hand) and threats like Metalworker, Counterbalance, Delver and Goblin Guide aren't something that the deck can just ignore and combo through.

For the combo to go off on turn 5, I need one explorer or Zenith. For turn 4, I'd need one additional explorer/Zenith/STE (or Meren / Witness to buy back Explorer).

If I was going to play a straight up combo deck with no midrange or control elements, I wouldn't be here, I'd be playing ANT or something.

[vereno]

I'm going to a local tournament this Saturday, going to be taking Scapewish. I almost have Abzan built but I'm not quite there yet - I think I prefer having the combo kill in my back pocket anyway, to be honest.

Anyway, I'm currently looking at this list. There are a few things I'm not certain about, though.

10 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

28 Noncreature Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Scapeshift
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Slaughter Games

23 Lands:
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

15 Sideboard:
1 Scapeshift
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip


- I'd like to run Recurring Nightmare since it's so good with Meren, but I'm not sure I have enough creatures to support it.
- A six-drop could be nice, but I've always found they sit in my hand for a lot of the time, and if I get to the point where I can cast it, I can often just Scapeshift for lethal anyway. If I was going to run one, it'd probably end up being Broodmate Dragon for Recurring Nightmare shenanigans or Primeval Titan (adding a Wolf Run somewhere).
- A second two-drop could be good, probably Scavenging Ooze. I've never been too impressed by the Ooze, though. I don't see the point in putting it in the SB when I could just play Surgical in the slot, so it'd be a maindeck drop. I don't feel like it gets going quickly enough, and whenever I put it in it underperforms for a tournament then gets cut again.
- I can probably afford to cut one copy of Scapeshift and potentially one copy of either Decay or Deed, since I'm playing a copy of Diabolic Intent.
- If I'm playing Diabolic Intent and Meren, and potentially Recurring Nightmare, Dryad Arbor starts to look a lot more appealing. It's pretty awkward with my wishboard / sweepers though. Also I get significantly more vulnerable to graveyard hate.
Couldn't those stomping grounds be Cinder Glades? With the likely hood being really high you will have 2 basics in play Cinder Glade becomes taiga number 5 and 6.

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

[Ralf]

Couldn't those stomping grounds be Cinder Glades? With the likely hood being really high you will have 2 basics in play Cinder Glade becomes taiga number 5 and 6.


I have (and I presume so did other Scape's players) cobbled with Cinder Glade.
My conclusion is:
- I have died because Stomping Grounds hit me for 2 against Tempo decks (shit happens)
- But I have died "more" because Cinder Glades came into play tapped a non 0 amount of times.

Having the option to lose 2 will always be > no option, at all.

Eventually, Cinder Glades will screw more opening hands than Stomping Ground ever will.

Cheers,

Ralf

[Ricardio]

I have (and I presume so did other Scape's players) cobbled with Cinder Glade.
My conclusion is:
- I have died because Stomping Grounds hit me for 2 against Tempo decks (shit happens)
- But I have died "more" because Cinder Glades came into play tapped a non 0 amount of times.

Having the option to lose 2 will always be > no option, at all.

Eventually, Cinder Glades will screw more opening hands than Stomping Ground ever will.

Cheers,

Ralf

look at it like this: pay 2 life or lose a turn. Stomp the yard everytime.

[Arianrhod]

I prefer both Nissa and Witness to Wood Elves, and I don't really want to run any more ramp-only creatures than I have to. It's probably next on the list if I want to add more only-mana creatures after the Dryad Arbor.


I am always uncomfortable running large numbers of Decays because they do very little to some decks. I also got beaten to death by a Dryad Arbor after extracting all of a Loam player's Punishing Fires once, which may be colouring my opinion here.


I think it's going to be +1 Dryad Arbor but leaving the Recurring Nightmare out for now, then.


I think the issue I've had with Scavenging Ooze is that I try to use it against decks that are too fast for it (i.e. Reanimator) - I don't know if it's so relevant in Scapeshift simply because slow graveyard decks and Deathrite decks are already matchups I'm relatively happy to see, since I can happily grind away for a few turns, clean them of counterspells and then throw a volcano at them.

For what it's worth, the decks I'm expecting to see most of are:

- Miracles
- Storm
- Reanimator
- Loam/Lands
- Blade variants
- Death and Taxes (though I always seem to dodge this for some reason)
- Shardless
- Maybe some Delver
- Miscellanous combo decks (Show and Tell, Painter, TinFins)

Some quick notes for you:

If that's your metagame, you want maindeck Slaughter Games over maindeck Decays.

The ramp creatures are intended to color fix because the manabase is too needy to be able to run many fetchlands. The fact that they ramp is secondary in importance to the fact that they allow you to be able to cast all of your spells. I would seriously examine your colored sources before cutting the Wood Elves -- don't forget that Zenith adds adds via Wood Elves as well. Nissa is strong in the deck, but only getting a basic Forest is playing dangerously. 1 Nissa 1 Wood Elves is fine...0 is risky though.

I personally hate Dryad Arbor, ymmv.

Agree w/your thoughts on Ooze.

Primeval Titan, for me, is the reverse Ooze. It always looks awful on paper, and you want to cut it -- but then it carries you and overperforms. I know Ralf doesn't really like Primetime much in Scape, but I personally swear by him. The only real trick with Primeval in Scape is that you -need- to know all the layering tricks with him and Valakut. If you can't do broken things with Valakut with him, don't bother running the card.

[Navsi]

Primeval Titan layering tricks with him and Valakut

Are you referring to getting your fifth and sixth mountains at the same time for two triggers / getting Valakut and mountain #6? Not sure if I'm missing something here.

[Arianrhod]

Are you referring to getting your fifth and sixth mountains at the same time for two triggers / getting Valakut and mountain #6? Not sure if I'm missing something here.

Yup. You'd be surprised at the number of people who -don't- know that, even among people I've seen playing Scapewish at larger legacy events.

[Ralf]

Primeval Titan, for me, is the reverse Ooze. It always looks awful on paper, and you want to cut it -- but then it carries you and overperforms. I know Ralf doesn't really like Primetime much in Scape, but I personally swear by him. The only real trick with Primeval in Scape is that you -need- to know all the layering tricks with him and Valakut. If you can't do broken things with Valakut with him, don't bother running the card.

I really like Primetime, Arian.

I have killed a bunch of opponents with him.

But from experience, the only games Primetime had saved my arses where against D&T and that unmanageable f. BSK.

Every other corner cases were... corner cases, you know.

Agree with the only trick about Primetime !

My list is 60 cards, right now and one can play whatever 61th green creature that suits him best.
And if I were to make a choice I think Thragtusk n°3 might be the real deal at the moment.
I also have cut a SLG for a "fiery confluence". Damn, this card is real.

Gush, Truth is really some raw power in Jund Fit...

[Navsi]

If putting multiple mountains and Valakut into play didn't give you multiple triggers, Scapeshift would be a pretty bad card. :laugh:

With Primeval Titan in Scapeshift, I've found that the common thing which happens is that I get Primeval and do some damage, but he gets removed before I can actually kill my opponent, and then I've searched up enough mountains into play that I don't have lethal from Scapeshift any more (esp. since it gives my opponent a chance to Wasteland / remove my Valakuts).

[Arianrhod]

I really like Primetime, Arian.

I have killed a bunch of opponents with him.

But from experience, the only games Primetime had saved my arses where against D&T and that unmanageable f. BSK.

Every other corner cases were... corner cases, you know.

Agree with the only trick about Primetime !

My list is 60 cards, right now and one can play whatever 61th green creature that suits him best.
And if I were to make a choice I think Thragtusk n°3 might be the real deal at the moment.
I also have cut a SLG for a "fiery confluence". Damn, this card is real.

Gush, Truth is really some raw power in Jund Fit...

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the last time we were talking about him.

[Ralf]

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood the last time we were talking about him.

Scavenging Ooze is our "stumbling" point.

I would not run any Nic Fit list without that little f. bastard.

The amount of green mana, we have access to, makes him a beast.

Play Ooze, bang the Cheerleader...

[Ricardio]

Play Ooze, bang the Cheerleader...

Heroes reference...top notch. FIFTY POINTS, GRYFFINDOR!

[Arianrhod]

Went 3-0 at the local tonight with the colorless version. More detailed thoughts to come, but I will note one thing: the deck has inevitability. Games can stall out, grind out, whatever -- but as long as you're still alive, you -will- win. You will eventually Zenith for 6, and whenever Primeval Titan hits play, you suspend 1: win the game.

I want to tinker with a couple of ideas before getting into too many specifics that I don't really have the time to actually go over right now, but I'm very satisfied with the initial results and the feel for how the deck played in general. I think that there is potential for a Scapewish-level consistent deck here.

Of special note: Glimmerposts are -insane-. I ended g3 vs RUG Delver at 34 life. While RUG is generally an easy enough matchup overall for any variety of Nic Fit, I feel that in a similar speed of game vs Grixis Delver I would've still been somewhere around 18-22 after lifegain, which seems pretty solid.

[jbone2016]

Gratz on your result. Awesome meta for Punishing Fire and lucky with the MUD split. How was the Baloth? Edit: And i am specifically interested in the Shardless MU, how did that go?

Rhinos > Goyf. Deed helped a lot.
As far as the MUD match, I beat him 2-0 at another IQ two weeks ago. Blind naming metalworker and hitting two helps a lot. From the ashes was better.

I'm still torn on K. Command and Pulse. I wouldn't mind another threat....Olivia seems.....eh.

[jbone2016]

Also.....who other than Ari is going to the Legacy open in Philly......

I really wanna go.

[Echelon]

Went 3-0 at the local tonight with the colorless version. More detailed thoughts to come, but I will note one thing: the deck has inevitability. Games can stall out, grind out, whatever -- but as long as you're still alive, you -will- win. You will eventually Zenith for 6, and whenever Primeval Titan hits play, you suspend 1: win the game.

I want to tinker with a couple of ideas before getting into too many specifics that I don't really have the time to actually go over right now, but I'm very satisfied with the initial results and the feel for how the deck played in general. I think that there is potential for a Scapewish-level consistent deck here.

Of special note: Glimmerposts are -insane-. I ended g3 vs RUG Delver at 34 life. While RUG is generally an easy enough matchup overall for any variety of Nic Fit, I feel that in a similar speed of game vs Grixis Delver I would've still been somewhere around 18-22 after lifegain, which seems pretty solid.

Give us that list, dammit :laugh:! I'm so curious!

On a side note: I've finally found a second Phyrexian Tower. It's on its way to me as we speak.

Also, I was pondering about adding Gitaxian Probes to my MB. Mostly b/c it's good friends with Cabal Therapy and I like knowing what my opponent is up to. The added bonus of a virtual 56-ish card deck being slightly more consistent than a 60 card deck is nice. It would turn my current list into this:

Main (60):
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

SB (15):
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace


So basically it'd be out with the >= 6 CMC package (Karador, Tasigur and Dromoka) and Empath and in with the 4 Gitaxian Probes. Even though they're some of my pet cards (or darkest fetishes) they are probably the cards needed least, leaving an as fast as possible core with Sigarda as top of the curve.

I have a tournament coming up februari 6th but won't be testing it there, I have a pre-release Dromoka coming in and want it to see some actual play first. I believe that apart from expedition fetchlands (which I just refuse to get, they're both too ugly and expensive) and fugly judge gift Pernicious Deeds I've got all the pre-release/promo/foil alternate art versions I can have in this deck.

[Arianrhod]

Also.....who other than Ari is going to the Legacy open in Philly......

I really wanna go.

I'm actually not 100% in on this yet. I'm leaning towards yes, but I have some problems (both deck-tuning and Real Life [bleh]) to figure out before I can actually say that I'm going.

@Echelon: I'll be posting it tomorrow with some thoughts and edits, as per my usual modus operandi. If you're desperate, the list I ran is basically the same time I posted about it in here....couple tweaks, but nothing major.

[Fatal]

Went 3-0 at the local tonight with the colorless version. More detailed thoughts to come, but I will note one thing: the deck has inevitability. Games can stall out, grind out, whatever -- but as long as you're still alive, you -will- win. You will eventually Zenith for 6, and whenever Primeval Titan hits play, you suspend 1: win the game.

I want to tinker with a couple of ideas before getting into too many specifics that I don't really have the time to actually go over right now, but I'm very satisfied with the initial results and the feel for how the deck played in general. I think that there is potential for a Scapewish-level consistent deck here.

Of special note: Glimmerposts are -insane-. I ended g3 vs RUG Delver at 34 life. While RUG is generally an easy enough matchup overall for any variety of Nic Fit, I feel that in a similar speed of game vs Grixis Delver I would've still been somewhere around 18-22 after lifegain, which seems pretty solid.

Congrats on your finish :-) Looking forward for report. I'm very interesting what was your final thoughts about hybrid. I agreed that Glimmerpost lifegain is a beast not only vs RUG but also vs most decks which win via combat.

[Navsi]

Having done a bit of reshuffling, I'm now on this:

Creatures (11):
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

Noncreature Spells (26)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
1 Diabolic Intent

Lands (24):
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stomping Ground
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard (15):
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Crumble to Ash (or 3rd Pithing Needle / 3rd Surgical Extraction)

[Echelon]

So many black cards, so few black sources. Seriously, it's scary low.

I understand why, but it's still somewhat disturbing. At least cut the Arbor for a fourth fetchland. Arbor is a good card but colourscrew leaves you dead in the water.

It might be worth it to switch out your Stomping Grounds for 2 more fetch so you at least get up to 12 initial black sources. It's still too low, but I understand you need to have enough mountains for your combo finish.

[Bobmans]

Or to put it differently. Suppose you have several versions of Nic Fit that have similar sucess in the good matchups. If one of those
versions has a significantly better matchup in one of the deck's worst matchups, then that is a pretty good upside of that version, isn't
it?

What Pettdan said has put me to think about NicFit in general and he is right. The only thing important for NicFit is a way to push it beyond it's shitty match-up's. In that regard i truly believe that Junk is the way to go.

@Arianrhod, How would you relate your GBc version of NicFit to the current meta and good-/bad matuchups as opposed to other versions of
NicFit? Or is it to soon to tell?


I'm probably cutting Primetime from Punishing Rhinos for something else.....Meren.....Baloth....3rd rhino....
Sigarda seems too hard to cast. Grave Titan seems reasonable.


Rhinos > Goyf. Deed helped a lot.
As far as the MUD match, I beat him 2-0 at another IQ two weeks ago. Blind naming metalworker and hitting two helps a lot. From the ashes
was better.

I'm still torn on K. Command and Pulse. I wouldn't mind another threat....Olivia seems.....eh.


@JBone, A big question i have is what makes it about this version of NicFit that you like it beyond straight JUNK or JUND?

On what threat to include it depends on where you find that your current creatures falls short.

If your suggesting Olivia, a 5 CMC BR creature then my first shout would be is Master of Cruelties. No kidding, the card
is unfair. Deathouch + First Strike is one thing, but he puts your opponent in immediate PFire range. Even if you have to Grove one back
to your hand. BUT it is not GSZ'able.

The following has more to do with me playing junk then you playing 4c, so be warned.

When looking at your list i am actually finding myself comparing cards from both jund/junk:

Punishing Fire vs Path to Exile
Recurring vs reach

Huntmaster of the Fells vs Siege Rhino
control vs robust

Slaughter Games vs Ethersworn Cannonist
Shutting down vs slowing down

Pyroblast vs more discard/extract
Reactive vs proactive

Stormbreath Dragon vs Sigarda, Host of Herons
Haste, pro white vs GSZ'able and Hexproof/Liliana proof


There is more to this this then a summed up comparison, but i like to make things simple. KISS, is what they say in the army. The
differences are in my opinion just nuances, but nuances (or details) are often very important on actual combat. In that regard i often
like more tech in my builds. But one-offs or to much variance leads to clunkiness.
Currently i feel that the added reach of Path to Exiles and that Sigarda is THE endgame you want make Junk better against decks where
NicFit falls short, see my quote from Pettdan. Our weak spot has always been combo AND anything that gets bigger. Playing combo between
Junk and Jund is somewhat similar. Playing Teeg + Hatebears have an somewhat equal effect as grinding with discard/Liliana into Slaughter
Games. Being able to play 4 Siege Rhino, which has taken a while for me to open my eyes to, means you can consistently put pressure on
your opponent, something that i missing a bit in Jund lists, where you often start to pressure after taking full control and still need
to ping away 15 life points or more. Anyway, the big sellingpoint on junk is that Path to Exiles (a full playset) makes games against MUD,
Eldrazi, Reanimator, etc doable, while not being weaker to our regular good matchup's. Ofcourse i am now promoting my signature list,
but after weeks of tweaking and testing the list has become very streamlined. It plays very fluent. 4 VetEx+Courser+Nissa makes you ramp
like crazy, Courser+Nissa+SDT+PTruths gives you lot advantage/quality, 4 Rhino+Nissa+Sigarda+Meren punch hard, Meren+Dryad Arbor gives a
lot of maneuverability, while all removal keeps the shit clear. Somehow, while not being something new, there is a really good cohesion.
More then the variants i've played so far. Jund also has a very solid cohesion, but the overall power of the deck is lower.

btw, Liliana would fit JUND better then JUNK, but having played the Junk list for some more serious games i am actually feeling i am
missing her. I am not missing Deathrite Shaman on the other hand. I did board him in vs Miracles and Reanimator, but without DRS my
manabase development was more reliable.

Yesterday i played with some friends and to compare i played 2 different decks versus them. Truth is that i was initially testing
OmniShow for competitive purposes, but after last night i am not even sure about OmniShow (for MKM Frankfurt). While the result of Junk
is nothing to fancy, but it at least tells me that the list is running consistently, even against the more difficult matchup's
(reanimator, elves can be problematic to at times.).
With junk:
2-0 Elves!
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Miracles

with Ub OmniShow:
2-1 Elves!
1-2 Reanimator
1-2 Miracles

So, i would probably not have convinced you to switch to full junk since i suck at speeching, but i am very curious to your answer on the
first question and would like to figure out what improvements can be done.


Somewhere i hate to admit it, but i am finally smashing face with a playset of Japanese Signed Rhino's and am actually considering to take it to MKM Frankfurt.

[Echelon]

Anyway, the big sellingpoint on junk is that Path to Exiles (a full playset) makes games against MUD,
Eldrazi, Reanimator, etc doable, while not being weaker to our regular good matchup's. Ofcourse i am now promoting my signature list,
but after weeks of tweaking and testing the list has become very streamlined.

It's not just your list that fits that glove :wink:.

[Ralf]

The problem I foresee by cutting the Dryad is that he'll have to cut the Diabolic intent as well.

Navsi's list is running far too few creature to reliably cast Diabolic Intent.

Color fix is the MAIN issue with Scape and I have written countless posts about it...


To sum it up:

- At least 14 green sources are mandatory to be able to play a T1 + green spell. For increased insurance (and as we are not playing any cantrips) I would advise 15 green sources. Less mulligans, more real games.
Every opening hand that doesn't include a green source HAS TO BE mulligan'ed. That's the price you have to pay for playing such deck.

- At least 11+ black sources. This is not satisfactory but you won't be able to push the black sources any further without cutting either green or red sources.

- At least 10+ mountain. The original list was playing 12 mountains which has been since reduced to 11. I'm playing with 10 mountains and I have yet to face a game where I can't Scape kill my opponent as long as you are playing "smart".

The issue lies within the fact that red sources are taking a lot of place in the deck whereas we are not playing much red spells:
10 or 11 mountains + 2 valakut.

This is a very huge commitment for a splash color.

Black is our second most wanted color (even more post side because we tend to side in many more black spells) and the one we have the less access to.


Best potential mana base configuration for 10 mountains


14G 13B 14R (not counting Valakut)

2/3 Taiga
4 Badland
3 Bayou
1/2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain


15G 12B 14R (not counting Valakut)

3/4 Taiga
3 Badland
3 Bayou
1/2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain


Best potential mana base configuration for 11 mountains


15G 11B 15R (not counting valakut)

4 Taiga
3 Badland
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain


14G 12B 15R (not counting valakut)

3/4 Taiga
4 Badland
2 Bayou
1/2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain


FWIW:
- 13 B is the best, sideboard wise but I prefer playing 15 green sources. I hate mulliganing because I have no green mana
- The difference between 12 B and 11 B is a mere 4 % when it comes to opening hand (81 % to 77%).
This is a "watercourse"; but when you are looking for a T1 discard spell + a black source (mulligans included) it is rather a "river" to cross...
- 4 Verdant catacombs because you want a basic forest AND a basic swamp before anything else.
- the split between Stomping Ground/Taiga is up-to-you. If you are parano as I am you will play 2 stomp. If you care more about the 2PV, then Taiga it is.


Cheers,

Ralf

[Bobmans]

It's not just your list that fits that glove :wink:.

Sure it does. The details are gonna make the difference. Well, for me at least.

[Navsi]

@Bobmans: Olivia costs 4 mana, not 5. Just saying.


black sources

While I only have 10/11 turn one sources, I can Zenith for it in case of emergency. Also no cards in the deck require BB (except Diabolic Intent -> Black card)

Possible solutions:

1 Stomping Ground -> Blood Crypt
I ran with this previously, worked out okay.
1 Mountain -> Blood Crypt
Not sure how low on basics I'm happy to go. Also being able to fetch a second basic Mountain off STE and/or Veteran can be handy if I'm expecting to need to Wish for Pyroclasm or similar.
1 Forest -> Bayou / Verdant Catacombs
I used to run two forests, but put the third one in when I added Nissa. It could probably come back out, but being able to trigger Nissa more consistently (say, after Veteran -> Nissa -> Witness) might be important.

I feel like the 12 mountains I'm at at the moment gives me a relatively reliable Scapeshift plan. Going to 10 makes things significantly less comfortable - if anything I'd probably stay at 11, dropping a Stomping Ground and a Forest for a second Bayou and a fourth fetchland.

Edit: @Ralf

I have found the second Swamp in particular to be relatively unimportant. Since we always search for the first one asap anyway, and we don't need double black for anything so the second Swamp just increases our odds of not getting G in the opening hand.

[Echelon]

Sure it does. The details are gonna make the difference. Well, for me at least.

You're missing the point, but that's fine.

@Ralf: In each and every manabase you present you can switch a Forest for another fetchland, upping the initial black count +1 so @10 mountains you could reach 14/14/15 G/B/R. For 11 mountains you can get to 14/13/16 G/B/R.

In case you didn't notice, I'm perfectly fine with having 14 initial green sources :tongue:. I think it's more import to aim for at least 14 across the board rather than >14 green and then whatever you can get.

[Navsi]

4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Stomping Ground

2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp

3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

15G / 13B / 16R / 11 mountains

or -1 Bayou +1 Swamp if basic count is too low:

14G / 13B / 16R / 11 mountains

[Echelon]

@Navsi: I just realised that with the 15/13/16 configuration you could switch your Stomping Grounds for a BR shockdual (Blood Crypt). That would bring you up to 14/14/16 on 11 mountains!

5 basics is a bit low but less important than your initial mana count. I mean, how many Vet Exes do you plan to blow up each game? Probably won't be more than 2. You just have to remember to fetch duals whenever you can, I suppose.

[Ralf]

@ Thread about Scape:

7 basics might not be mandatory at all but I think this is a yet-to-be explored path.
Obviously cutting any number of basics will fix a bit further our color requirement.

In any case, I would start testing with 6 basics. Dropping to 5 might be doable but I would be very very cautious.

But one has to pay attention that 4 veteran + 1 sakura is asking for basics and one also has to pay attention to those games where you'll only want to fetch/grab basics to be able to a play a clean Scape + 7 basics.

At last, there is a non-mentioned corner case where you already have your lone swamp (for example) in play and multiple discard spells in hand. This might not be relevant but who knows...

[Echelon]

While we're at it: In lists with a low number of fetchlands, Dryad Arbor often is sub par. And now we've cleared that out of the Scapeshift list, you probably want to drop the Diabolic Intent as well (as Ralf mentioned). In a creature and fetch heavy list it's a wonderful card (heck, I even run 2). Without either it loses value fast.

[Ricardio]

So I played a few 2mans last night. Ran over Grixis delver in an easy 2(at some point it was like b8tin it)
then I played against shardless. I went t1 therapy, turn 2 gsz for vet and sac the vet(FYQ, FYP). He conceded the match. Feels good, man.
Then I played against what I can only describe as a sweet UB deck. He went t1 island ponder. t2 ancient tomb skill borrower revealing griselbrand. He drew 7 and SnT in emrakul. Once I finished picking my brain up off the ground, I sideboarded and somehow become this weird artifact deck after. t1 duress, t2 chalice 1, t3 snt wurmcoil. forced my rhino.

Anyways, I have changes im going to make to my abzan list because it seems loose atm(playing 1 sfm/1 batterskull mb and 1 sofi sb)

[Tom4ik]

No offense but I am more interested in skill borrower.dec than another abzan list haha. That list sounds pretty sweet with the transformational SB (which has always been quirk of some decks that I love).

This thread is now like a page past the comment but someone mentioned running probe. I recommend probe but only with access to blue. Probe makes turning therapy against combo very very dangerous because you no longer have to take high percentage plays but get to be much more targeted. It also does help upping the consistency. Does seem worse when you only have the option of paying life to cast it though.

[Ralf]

You're missing the point, but that's fine.

@Ralf: In each and every manabase you present you can switch a Forest for another fetchland, upping the initial black count +1 so @10 mountains you could reach 14/14/15 G/B/R. For 11 mountains you can get to 14/13/16 G/B/R.

In case you didn't notice, I'm perfectly fine with having 14 initial green sources :tongue:. I think it's more import to aim for at least 14 across the board rather than >14 green and then whatever you can get.

I'll try the +1 fetch -1 Forest config and I'll cobble between 13 and 14B.

In case you didn't notice, I said the 14G config is perfectly viable, mathematically wise.

The issue I am having is that unlike other Nic Fit version, Scape is very specific.
In Junk, you might be able to dig your way out with an opening hand that does not contain any green source but from experience, in Scape, this is rather a suicide. We don't have a lot of T1 play, save Veteran or discard.

Should I have met too much variance or what, but I do like the extra bit of insurance by playing 15G.

Anyway, this is just a personal "feeling" and it should not prevent anyone from playing the best theorical mana base:

14G 14B 15R (not counting valakut)

3 Taiga
4 Badland
3 Bayou
1 Stomping ground
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

or

15G 13B 15R (not counting valakut)

3/4 Taiga
3 Badland
3 Bayou
1/2 Stomping ground
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain

For the 10 or 11 mountain debate, I still need to gather some data.
But after 100+ games, I didn't face the issue, once...
I have killed with a Scape for 12, 15 or 24 & 30 a good bunch of games, but I've never met the issue where I could not Scape at all.

[Navsi]

Since the Dryad Arbor and Diabolic Intent are going - that makes Meren a lot less appealing. However there aren't that many other 4-drops that actually look relevant (resistant to bolt/decay, give some amount of value). Possible choices:

Huntmaster - Already have one. Might be good anyway though.

Mina and Denn, Wildborn - actually look alright. Can save lands from Wasteland (heh) and give me some Valakut lategame.

Thrun - much better with equipment or Wolf-run. I don't think I have the space for either of those, though.

Giant Solifuge - Great against control. Okay against all the combo decks. Not much in the way of synergy, though. Not great against anyone with creatures.

Chameleon Colossus - also really wants Wolf-Run.


I might try out Mina and Denn instead of Meren, with Primeval Titan in the Diabolic Intent slot.

[Bobmans]

Mina and Denn. Most of the time is was a worst version of Thrun. Never used the additional landdrop, because at the point where you can use 4/5 mana to get it on the floor your probably not holding multiple lands or arent getting multiple's soon. Also never used the activited ability. But then again, i never tried it in Scape.

It might be strong next to Courser (and SDT), but for what you want it to do Oracle of Mul Daya is better at it (except that one dies to everything).

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Read the Bones
2 Toxic Deluge

4 Warping Wail

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin

//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize

For reference, this is where we were at the last time.

The matches:

2-0 vs BUG Nic Fit
2-0 vs Shardless BUG
2-1 vs RUG Delver

The one game I dropped vs RUG was game 1 -- I mulled to 5, and he had t1 blindflip Delver into 3x Stifle + FoW + 2x Wasteland.

...K.

I crushed him fairly effortlessly games 2 and 3, although g3 was a little tricky just by virtue of his having planeswalkers out of nowhere (Jace VP and Dack Fayden). I also had ye olde 1-lander with Carpet of Flowers, which put me into 2x Vet and a Matter Reshaper, so we ended up in this obnoxious stall of my "punish you if you kill this" board vs his Goyf and planeswalkers.

One of the more interesting games on the day was g1 vs Shardless. I kept a probably bad idea / punishing hand of multiple colorless sources (Cloud, Glimmer, Phyrexian Tower), a Sensei's Top, and green cards including a Vet. He made a couple Shardless Agents and was beating me down fairly anemically while I sat there spinning Top every turn looking for a green source. By the time I got said green source, I had 2x Vet and a Therapy in hand, along with the Tower that was in play. When I finally got the green to start things off, I went NUCLEAR. It was actually a lot of fun, although I'm lucky he never saw a real clock.

I also got to win g2 by taking infinite turns with Phyrexian Tower and Eye of Ugin :D

So, what worked?

-) Matter Reshaper. The card is as good as advertised. I never went nuts with it with Nightmare or any of that garbage, but just as a 3/2 for 3 with upside he was great. He got me an uncounterable Pernicious Deed via a Sensei's Top in g2 vs RUG, which felt great. Most of the rest of the time he was either a land drop or a card in hand, which is fine.

-) Nissa. Nissa is bae. She actually feels even more important in this list because she can get you to GG off of one green source -- as in, her creature side isn't approaching useless like it is in some other versions (looking at you, Abzan rhinos). Due to the importance of the land ramping in this version, similar to Scape, she flips super easily and super quickly.

-) Eternal Witness. This is very important. E.Wit rarely makes the list of notables because, while solid, it never feels like it's doing anything broken. The difference here is that this version, courtesy of the cloudpost engine, makes GOBS of mana. This deck is built to loop Emrakul for infinite turns. It doesn't care about adding 3 to the cost of anything. In g3 vs RUG I was one mana short from being able to Zenith E.Wit, re-play and crack Pernicious Deed, and then cast Kozilek. The fact that I was /only/ one mana short of that play is retarded.

-) Kozilek's cast trigger. I don't even care about the rest of him....the rest of him probably goes down yonder in the "what didn't work" part. His cast trigger was insane for me -- I always drew at least 4-5 cards, getting the nut draw 7 once.

-) Read the Bones felt great. It wasn't quite as good as Painful Truths, perhaps (I'm still undecided on the scry 2 vs draw 1), but for a 2-color deck, Bones did the job just fine. I had to board them out vs RUG, which made my deck feel a lot worse...and even vs Shardless I was still running out of cards because of the raw amount of mana I was making. But, we'll get more into that later.

What didn't work?

-) Warping Wail. As much as I hate to say this. I will note that I was frequently happy to have Wail in my deck, but I rarely drew them. I got to exile a Vet when my Nic Fit opponent r1 was mana screwed with 5-drops in hand, and I got to counter a Hymn to Tourach vs Shardless. That was about it. I was sitting there at the time actually thinking to myself that it would be great to have a Wail in my hand -- Zenith from Nic Fit, Visions from Shardless, exile an unflipped Delver or Jace VP from RUG, etc....but I didn't have them at the time. Whenever I drew it, it was always the wrong time. Realistically, Wail might move to the sideboard in accordance with a realization that I'll get into in the next section.

-) Kozilek's body. A 12/12 menace is fine and all, but the real irritation with Kozilek was that he didn't shuffle back into my deck. Sure, he can be reanimated with Nightmare, but like, Nic Fit Therapied him out g1 and I was like, well, that sucks. Just lost my draw 7. His trigger and existence is still powerful enough that it justifies his presence in the deck, but I was very annoyed that he didn't shuffle back in like Big Mommy.

-) Maindeck Deluges, actually. Some of this might be matchup-driven -- I didn't play vs Grixis Delver, DnT, or Elves, obviously, which are the three things that the maindeck Deluges would especially shine vs. But even then, they felt like they were kind of unnecessary answers.

-) Nightmare. Something I've never actually said before, but Nightmare did underperform for me. I never got to hook it up to Matter Reshaper, and the biggest thing I threatened was to loop Vet -> Primeval Titan vs RUG, which is admittedly pretty scary. The real problem with Nightmare, I feel, is that this deck is akin to Scapewish (which you'll hear me say a lot about soon). It has a sufficiently big enough/powerful enough/consistent enough endgame that it doesn't care about Nightmare. Nightmare is /The End/ for things like Abzan because looping Rhinos is the closest that version gets to going broken. Scapewish and this version both go absolutely busted. They don't need or want Nightmare to get in the way.

Special category: sideboard?

Unfortunately, I didn't really sideboard much for this event. I ran with the prescribed sideboard, but I only brought in 2 cards vs Nic Fit, 2 cards vs Shardless, and 6 vs RUG (which, in retrospect, Pulse was probably incorrect). Disfigures overperformed vs RUG, and Carpet was as great as it always is. Didn't play against any combo on the night, so I can't say how good the other stuff is. I don't think that what I have in the board is bad, but I also don't know if it's good. Awkward place to be.

Okay, so where now?

First of all, let's compare this deck to Scapewish real quick.

-) They both have insane endgames involving 1-card combos.
-) Said endgame is extremely consistent and some degree of inevitable.
-) They both want to ramp rapidly and both take advantage of card draw better than most decks as a result.
-) They both have stringent manabase concerns.
-) They both have a lot more lifegain built in than most versions, as a way to buy time to get to the endgame.

Fundamentally, colorless and scapewish are both doing roughly the same thing. They're just different flavors of it....Scape goes a little faster, but colorless goes way bigger and isn't THAT much slower.

The Eternal Witness point in the "what worked" bit above is probably the keystone here. I think that this deck wants to join Scapewish as a "wish" deck. I want to experiment with Living Wish for this deck. Wishes increase the threat density and stability of the deck at the costs of both sideboard options and speed: you're paying 2 more for anything that you wish for, which tends to make wishes not as exciting. If Eternal Witness is busted in this deck because of the raw amount of mana it produces, then it logically follows that Living Wish is also going to be very good here. The biggest problem with a Living Wishboard is that most of the truly great targets are in white. If there aren't enough targets in BGC, then I'll find another option...I'm not going to add a color just to satisfy Wish.

Cards of note for wishboard:

Llanowar Wastes is the best land for the deck if you can only have 1 land, due to its tri-land nature.
Eye of Ugin is fragile maindeck, and while getting it with Titan is easy access, it does open you up to Wasteland. I think that one still needs to exist maindeck, but it's an option to add a 2nd sideboard.
Eldrazi of some kind. Ulamog is a good universal answer while also being a tentacular spectacular, but might be worse than sideboarding Kozilek 2.0 and maindecking a different monster.
Wurmcoil and Primeval Titan are both reasonable midgame trumps. Having a second Primeval in the board actually sounds pretty great, since that gives you an effective 8 Primeval Titans instead of 4.
Having access to a sac outlet is usually good -- Viscera Seer is probably the best option for this since it costs one mana and has a relevant payoff.
Thought-Knot Seer is good vs combo, and something we were sideboarding anyway.
Eternal Witness and Reclamation Sage are both good options, as are Bojuka Bog and Karakas.

This leaves two primary holes that need filled: a mini/full sweeper, and a faster combo option...something that's not 4 mana.

Looking through the sweeper options, there basically aren't any. The only wishable sweepers are a million mana, most of it black, which is unrealistic. Kagemaro, First to Suffer is probably the best option, which is 8 mana, including triple black, for a -X/-X = # cards in hand. Nowhere near good enough. Tabernacle is realistically the only option, and I'm actually not that high on Tabby, because the deck that you really want to hit with this is Elves, and they have Gaea's Cradle, which completely counters Tabby.

Here's a sample thought:

2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Primeval Titan
1 Viscera Seer

This operates under the assumption that Kozilek gets moved to the board with a different Old God going maindeck, as well possibly a maindeck RecSage (or just not caring because other ways of dealing with that stuff). There's only 6 targets here, but realistically 4 of them are wishable vs every matchup (T-KS, E.Wit, Primeval, and Kozi). Seer and Bog are very specific and narrow, they won't come up much, but will be great when they do. Of note: there's no room in this sideboard for Warping Wail, and there's no room for any sweepers. This means that Elves and Death and Taxes will probably be problems. There's also only five dedicated combo cards, which is light...although the ones that are present are VERY strong.

Worth noting that Scape also tends to only have ~5ish cards for combo as well, although the speed of its endgame factors in. At the same time, this version has a much less anemic beatdown than Scape does...Matter Reshapers are serious clocks to combo decks, especially if there is a 3-ball in play. It's possible that the Disfigures could be 2 more T-KS, which would allow for 2 to be boarded in with 1 still open to Wish for. Wishing for Bog is relevant vs Storm, though, as well. Not sure.

As far as the maindeck is concerned, this is where I'm looking for now:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Read the Bones
4 Living Wish

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Eye of Ugin

Notes on maindeck changes:

4 Living Wish because as noted, I think the deck wants to be a lot more proactive and a lot less reactive. The first sketch tried to be too reactive -- too many counterspells, spot removal, and durdling. It's possible the Wishes end up being too far on the other end of the spectrum, and they get cut to allow for a modest maindeck removal suite. If they do, Kozilek likely returns to the maindeck over the Ulamog.

Oracle of Mul Daya allows for Zenith to grab card advantage. I'm not certain about this, but I want to at least test the option.

Wurmcoil joins the deck because there were two specific occasions on the night where I wanted to Eye of Ugin for something in the 6-8 mana range. I didn't have enough to get Kozilek, but I wanted to get something higher impact than a Matter Reshaper on turn 6ish. I also put in a 2nd Thragtusk in hopes that I never have to board out Read the Bones again. The draw engine was actually very important to the deck due to the rate at which it chews through its cards. Having to remove that because of an aggressive matchup made the rest of my deck feel worse, and I want to hedge against that.

Final Thoughts

Obviously, adding the Wishes is a pretty huge change. There's a lot of things in both the maindeck and the sideboard that are affected by this, and I'm unsure of a lot of card choices as a result at the moment. After a couple days (and probably some input from everyone here), I should have a much clearer idea of what's going on here. All I really know with certainty right now is that there is 100% a very competitive deck here. I hold to that Scapewish was probably my best brew in the competitive sense, and even though I ended up getting rid of it because I preferred to play other versions more than it, I can't really argue with the success its had. I strongly believe that there is a Scapewish-level deck here. The trick is just finding the right card selections for it.

Wishes or not is probably the biggest question right now, followed by the chain of: If Wishes, then how much removal vs If Not Wishes, then how much removal, as tempered by how much removal is actually necessary.

As far as matchups go, I can't really speak to that yet as it's way too early in this version's life to know much. I'm sure Elves is going to be miserable with the changes I just made -- before them, Elves was probably actually fine to positive. Elves was one of the matchups that Warping Wail and Toxic Deluge maindeck were best against. Storm is probably about the same as other matchups (highly unfavorable but winnable g1, 50/50-60/40 g2). Sneak/Show gains a little % just by virtue of having space monsters in the deck to blow out their Show and Tells, but then also loses a lot of % because there's no ability to splash red for Slaughter Games. DnT probably revolves completely around Pernicious Deed vs Revoker, as usual. At the same time, DnT has to worry about our very real beatdown plan and their anemic clock vs our endgame. Cataclysm is probably ungodly terrifying, even more than usual.

RUG is highly positive, as always; Shardless BUG seemed perfectly fine; Miracles has to be a shitstomp in our favor -- I can't see that going well for them at all, since we have 12post's endgame paired with Nic Fit's sweepers and midgame to deal with the Mentors. Lands is probably a nightmare, as always, as is Reanimator, I'm sure. Grixis Delver was something like 65-35 our favor with the Wails and Deluges, will need to retest with changes. We're probably still highly disadvantaged vs actual 12-post, since Cloudposts count ALL Loci, and they play 4 Clouds + Maps + more Titans to search them up vs our 3 Clouds + 1 Titan/3 Zenith/4 Wish. If we untap with the first Cloudpost, there's a chance we can race them to the space age. I haven't seen a BUG Delver in forever, despite Source's DTB assuring me that it still exists. That matchup has always been kind of a crapshoot because it depends on which half of their deck they draw. I don't know that this has really changed too much, but I do know that BUG Delver CANNOT beat a resolved Wurmcoil Engine, so we do have that going for us. ObBaloth is good vs their discard and Lilianas, too.

That's my brief thoughts on matchups for this thing. I will note, in closing, that a lot of these matchups will likely improve as the deck gets refined and tuned.

So yeah. Two hours of typing later, there's my thoughts on the colorless version.

If you scrolled past all of that, I hate you, but here's the TL;DR: Gobs of potential, currently unrefined.

[Myelectronicdays]

Thanks for the writeup! crazy detailed and love the idea of this list. nice work!

[Fatal]

@Arianrhod

Some debate about chooses:
Viscera Seer - I think it's garbage compared to Crop Rotation which gives you access to functional lands which one is Phyrexian Tower.

1 Oracle of Mul Daya - anything which ramp you for one more land is mostly enough to cast Titan, it's a waste of slot, but try it yourself.

2 Obstinate Baloth - not sure why Baloths are MD - it's useful only vs Discard, you don't have enough clock to end game enough fast vs Combo, I would rather more focus on ramp which would give you speed.

2 Thragtusk - 1 is fairly enough I would rather bump Titans count which ramps, open way to Emrakul loop you and give life if needed.


3 Read the Bones - that's interesting but I found I have no time to pure card advantage spells, most time you use all your mana to ramp, or removal - but it's interesting approach. Anyway not running 4 Green Sun's Zenith is wrong.


4 Living Wish - that's very interesting one it opens a lot of options, but before you jam 4 Wishes propose SB - it's really tiny.

I think with more focusing on ending game bombs (Titans) like titans is better then some narrow creatures which mostly get removal. I also get surprised you didnt fit Abrupt Decay which is very good answer vs early threads.

I agree to compare Nic feat 8Post to Scapeshift version, both decks has similar aims, but one of them works on lands only and it's uncounterable.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod

Some debate about chooses:
Viscera Seer - I think it's garbage compared to Crop Rotation which gives you access to functional lands which one is Phyrexian Tower.

1 Oracle of Mul Daya - anything which ramp you for one more land is mostly enough to cast Titan, it's a waste of slot, but try it yourself.

2 Obstinate Baloth - not sure why Baloths are MD - it's useful only vs Discard, you don't have enough clock to end game enough fast vs Combo, I would rather more focus on ramp which would give you speed.

2 Thragtusk - 1 is fairly enough I would rather bump Titans count which ramps, open way to Emrakul loop you and give life if needed.


3 Read the Bones - that's interesting but I found I have no time to pure card advantage spells, most time you use all your mana to ramp, or removal - but it's interesting approach. Anyway not running 4 Green Sun's Zenith is wrong.


4 Living Wish - that's very interesting one it opens a lot of options, but before you jam 4 Wishes propose SB - it's really tiny.

I think with more focusing on ending game bombs (Titans) like titans is better then some narrow creatures which mostly get removal. I also get surprised you didnt fit Abrupt Decay which is very good answer vs early threads.

I agree to compare Nic feat 8Post to Scapeshift version, both decks has similar aims, but one of them works on lands only and it's uncounterable.

The Viscera Seer is to Wish for, not anything on its own rights at all. It's just a way to make Living Wish into a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer.

The Baloths and Thrags are to help stabilize the midgame. It might be that just flat ignoring the midgame is more correct -- just racing into Primeval/Wurmcoil/space monsters...but I've been disappointed by that approach in the past just due to situations where your ramp is either disrupted or you just don't hit any of it. I still want to be able to play a fair...well, "nic fit fair," game of magic while simultaneously slowing building to crescendo.

Oracle, as noted, is experimental and may very well get removed.

4th Zenith is probably correct as the deck moved more green than it originally was. The very first draft, which had the maindeck Thought-Knots, didn't really want 4 Zeniths...but things have moved around enough now that it probably does. Good call on that. Read the Bones was actually fantastic for me -- I always had plenty of time / mana for it...might be a playstyle difference, or just because the deck is built differently / more midrange.

The Decays will doubtless go in (probably as a 2-of, with 1 Pulse and 1 something else) if the Living Wishes prove to not be worth it, which, without access to white, they very well might not be good enough. I do want to at least try them before declaring that to be the case, though, because if they DO work out, the upside is huge, I think. That's why the Wishes are the main question that needs asked right now...their presence, or lack thereof, determines a lot of other factors.

[Navsi]

For a Living Wish sweeper target:

Massacre Wurm maybe? I know -2/-2 isn't amazing, but he is pretty strong and he does hilarious things against Empty the Warrens. He's the same mana as Kagemaro and less awkward if you don't have anything in hand.

Also, Crypt Rats? They're pretty B intensive though.

[Arianrhod]

For a Living Wish sweeper target:

Massacre Wurm maybe? I know -2/-2 isn't amazing, but he is pretty strong and he does hilarious things against Empty the Warrens. He's the same mana as Kagemaro and less awkward if you don't have anything in hand.

Also, Crypt Rats? They're pretty B intensive though.

That's a good one (Rats). Minister of Pain is likely the best, actually.

[Echelon]

@Arianrhod: You so want a Meren in that list. Combined with Matter Reshaper and Eternal Witness it can provide you with so much CA and additional mana (looping Explorers). Just run one instead of a Baloth (or Thragtusk). CA engines you can Zenith for are never bad :wink:. When doing that you might also want to include a Diabolic Intent.

Building further on that: Eye of Ugin doesn't make any mana, so it doesn't help you cast anything. If you want to find your big bombs (b/c I don't think you'll be paying 7 mana to find a Matter Reshaper any time soon) you could just as well run Fierce Empath (just throw out Nissa). It allows you to find your Wurmcoil Engine, can't be Wastelanded and cracks you up when your opponent deliberately wastes spotremoval on it. That would also allow you to run another Llanowar Wastes, bringing you up to 14 initial green sources (and an additional B an C).

Maybe you can also swap a Bayou for another Llanowar Wastes.

And I'd run Courser of Kruphix over Oracle (you don't play enough lands to want Exploration after you've reached the 4-6 mana necessary to cast/GSZ through Daze Oracle, meaning Courser does the same job for less mana whilst also gaining you some life and having 4 toughness instead of 2).

[jbone2016]

@JBone, A big question i have is what makes it about this version of NicFit that you like it beyond straight JUNK or JUND?

On what threat to include it depends on where you find that your current creatures falls short.

If your suggesting Olivia, a 5 CMC BR creature then my first shout would be is Master of Cruelties. No kidding, the card
is unfair. Deathouch + First Strike is one thing, but he puts your opponent in immediate PFire range. Even if you have to Grove one back
to your hand. BUT it is not GSZ'able.

The following has more to do with me playing junk then you playing 4c, so be warned.

When looking at your list i am actually finding myself comparing cards from both jund/junk:

Punishing Fire vs Path to Exile
Recurring vs reach

Huntmaster of the Fells vs Siege Rhino
control vs robust

Slaughter Games vs Ethersworn Cannonist
Shutting down vs slowing down

Pyroblast vs more discard/extract
Reactive vs proactive

Stormbreath Dragon vs Sigarda, Host of Herons
Haste, pro white vs GSZ'able and Hexproof/Liliana proof


There is more to this this then a summed up comparison, but i like to make things simple. KISS, is what they say in the army. The
differences are in my opinion just nuances, but nuances (or details) are often very important on actual combat. In that regard i often
like more tech in my builds. But one-offs or to much variance leads to clunkiness.
Currently i feel that the added reach of Path to Exiles and that Sigarda is THE endgame you want make Junk better against decks where
NicFit falls short, see my quote from Pettdan. Our weak spot has always been combo AND anything that gets bigger. Playing combo between
Junk and Jund is somewhat similar. Playing Teeg + Hatebears have an somewhat equal effect as grinding with discard/Liliana into Slaughter
Games. Being able to play 4 Siege Rhino, which has taken a while for me to open my eyes to, means you can consistently put pressure on
your opponent, something that i missing a bit in Jund lists, where you often start to pressure after taking full control and still need
to ping away 15 life points or more. Anyway, the big sellingpoint on junk is that Path to Exiles (a full playset) makes games against MUD,
Eldrazi, Reanimator, etc doable, while not being weaker to our regular good matchup's. Ofcourse i am now promoting my signature list,
but after weeks of tweaking and testing the list has become very streamlined. It plays very fluent. 4 VetEx+Courser+Nissa makes you ramp
like crazy, Courser+Nissa+SDT+PTruths gives you lot advantage/quality, 4 Rhino+Nissa+Sigarda+Meren punch hard, Meren+Dryad Arbor gives a
lot of maneuverability, while all removal keeps the shit clear. Somehow, while not being something new, there is a really good cohesion.
More then the variants i've played so far. Jund also has a very solid cohesion, but the overall power of the deck is lower.

btw, Liliana would fit JUND better then JUNK, but having played the Junk list for some more serious games i am actually feeling i am
missing her. I am not missing Deathrite Shaman on the other hand. I did board him in vs Miracles and Reanimator, but without DRS my
manabase development was more reliable.


I played Junk for a longtime before switching over (living wish/SFM/rector versions of some degree). Those versions seemed to play more of a mid-range deck or combo (for Thune/Feeder).
This version (P. Rhinos) feels much more controlling and slaps your opponent upside the head with the rhinos. My elves opponent just looked miserable after a while and just decided to move on to next game.
I was one life at least 3 different times on Sunday (twice against RUG which is scary). It feels like we are the not-miracles miracles deck. That being said......I think I want a bonfire in the deck.
I think I want one more threat at 5 or above. Stormbreath fits this well but may strain the manabase a little bit more.

[Fatal]

Note from yesterday testing vs Combo Lands R/G:

Actually best answer which is wasteproof (longterm solution, Karakas dies from wasteland or it's tapped by port), Krosan Grip proof, and punishing proof is own Thespian's Stage (running 4 crop rotation SB).

Answering which own token vs his one, is probably best to stall this route, they can't have more tokens, they can't kill it, so it's gives enough time to win. It's not permanent, Combo lands player still have an out - Karakas if they don't side it out. Most time enough to assamble Titan win.

@Arianrhod looking for feedback from Wish build, also I agree that's you more focused on midrange fair game instead bomb wins, probably best will be mix, deck which can fast unfair win, and also can play as solid midrange :-).

[rubblekill]

To those of you who play SFM: in the end how many do tou play? Which equipment?
Currently I'm running 2, because 1 is too few and I can't find space for three. I have to agree with the guy that said that the number of sfms should be lower than the number of equipments, we are no stoneblade deck but a swordsman rhino deck. Playing with batterskull (which replaces tusk) sofi AND a third equipment. I am trying to figure out if the third equipment is really necessary, currently playing sobam over sofaf because pro black is less relevant and sobam is a nightmare for control decks, pooping wolves is also nice. Sofaf is also too slow for storm so I don't wanna play it only for that mu. Your final impressions?

[Navsi]

What about Jitte? It's cheap, and wins games against creature matchups pretty much on its own.

[rubblekill]

What about Jitte? It's cheap, and wins games against creature matchups pretty much on its own.

We have plenty of removal already, and jitte it's more likely to die to deed (while other equipments aren't). Plus it needs to connect to bring value, while swords give an immediate boost AND protection. And I don't have any free slots left.

[Echelon]

I don't get the appeal of SFM and equipment for Nic Fit in its entirety. You can't GSZ for SFM and your standard equipment demands just as much mana as GSZ for Rhino (and to improve your case, I'm ignoring the casting of SFM which would up the mana consumption to 7) while non of your equipments can compete with Rhino or you spend 3 turns to cast SFM, drop your equipment and equip it which is also 3 turns of not killing your opponent.

Furthermore, equipment in itself does not pose a threat. I can't count the number of times where I was piloting Elves! and chumpblocked my opponents' only creature when he sent it in wielding a Jitte. Sure, I lost some critters after combat but after that the Jitte just sat on the board with noone to carry it for several turns in a row. The same holds true for every other equipment sans Batterskull (which is even more mana intensive and is worse in combat then Siege Rhino).

[rubblekill]

I don't get the appeal of SFM and equipment for Nic Fit in its entirety. You can't GSZ for SFM and your standard equipment demands just as much mana as GSZ for Rhino (and to improve your case, I'm ignoring the casting of SFM which would up the mana consumption to 7) while non of your equipments can compete with Rhino or you spend 3 turns to cast SFM, drop your equipment and equip it which is also 3 turns of not killing your opponent.

Furthermore, equipment in itself does not pose a threat. I can't count the number of times where I was piloting Elves! and chumpblocked my opponents' only creature when he sent it in wielding a Jitte. Sure, I lost some critters after combat but after that the Jitte just sat on the board with noone to carry it for several turns in a row.

A single example such as the elves mu doesn't demonstrate anything mate. I have yet to decide if I like the sfm better, I want this to be clear, but it really seems ingenuous to bash the build with the "mana consumption" point. Sfm is here to support rhino, not replace it, and with all the mana we have we can just cast swords from our hand; let's not forget that she eats removal like a champ, removal otherwise directed towards drs (bolt) or rhino and meren (stp). AND she gives us something proactive we can decide to do on turn 2 if we don't have the vet+ct interaction available.

This build gives us more utility and opens up new branches of decisions we can take (is this even grammatically correct?); more than anything gives inevitability: countless times I have managed to "get there" with a late game veteran/squire/Drs carrying a piece of equipment, after all the big guys have been killed/countered/discarded etc. With an equipment in play every top decked little guy becomes potentially a win con.
We DONT necessarily have to think of sfm as our "new plan", but as a tool that's beneficial to our already existing one (rhino).

[Ralf]

Not to mention that any equipment on the field transforms any squirrel into a threat that has to be dealt with.

[rubblekill]

Not to mention that any equipment on the field transforms any squirrel into a threat that has to be dealt with.

I have just edited in this same exact statement :)

[Echelon]

A single example such as the elves mu doesn't demonstrate anything mate.


Not to mention that any equipment on the field transforms any squirrel into a threat that has to be dealt with.

Replace "chumpblocked with Elves!" with "I cast a random piece of spotremoval" and reread the bit.

The branches it offers you are slower and less powerful than those already available to you, so why bother?

And yes, things like how mana hungry something is are important. Otherwise we'd just be jamming 4 Emrakul & 4 Kozilek and call it a day. But hey, you're The Guy so you know this stuff, right? Things like opportunity cost are made up bullshit people use to sound interesting :wink:.

[rubblekill]

Replaces "chumpblocked with Elves!" with "I cast a random piece of spotremoval" and reread the bit.

The branches it offers you are slower and less powerful than those already available to you, so why bother?

And yes, things like how mana hungry something is are important. Otherwise we'd just be jamming 4 Emrakul & 4 Kozilek and call it a day. But hey, you're The Guy so you know this stuff, right? Things like opportunity cost are made up bullshit people use to sound interesting :wink:.

Nice from a turn 2 play to a 15 mana dude, nice reasoning. And let's just ignore the rest of the post, why not.
I have never said to be The Guy, but if you want I may be Your guy ok?

[Echelon]

I have never said to be The Guy, but if you want I may be Your guy ok?

May I direct you to one of your posts on page 152, good sir?


I will be that guy now.

And on that same page you adressed the following concern:


Because otherwise I'd be repeating the things I have always been saying: mana efficiency - resiliency of our threats.

So it seems that what you're suggesting is something you yourself are against. What's up with that? Some pages ago mana efficiency is a thing but as soon as it conflicts with what you're suggesting it isn't? Could you explain how that works?

[Bobmans]

What is going on here. Let's drop the d.size competetion and get back to the most play-friendly enviroment this deck usually creates.

@PFire Rhino;

Since your running a build that really pushes your manabase i might think that Primeval Titan is your best game ending bomb. When your able to land PrimeTime you can dig up more lands and go out of control from there. Multiples PFire per turn plus landing everything you draw from there on out.

As for Stormbreath Dragon... It is a monster. But you are right that it would ask to much of your manabase. A while back i played it and found that running SBD effectivly it will demand running at least 2 copies, plus you have to make room for 2 basic mountains so you can make sure you are able to land a SBD after you trigger a Veteran Explorer. And if you do so, then the question is; do you still need/want Siege Rhino?



@Stoneforge Mystic;

Following the logic about Swordsmen Rhino it makes perfect sense to go i.e. 2 SFM and 3 Equip.

As for equip, i would suggest playing Jitte, SoFaI and SoLaS. The last one due to giving your creature protection from white. This is pretty big against plow decks. Next to this, recycling creatures back from your graveyard will overload your opponent, granted your not getting hosed by RiP. And lifegain will pull you the distance.

Playing 3 equipment with CMC =< 3 means you can have added value out of Sun Titan. As a one of it shows up in your lategame where it will take over the game. As said, this will make you weaker vs gravehate, but you gotta try and play thru/around that. But running S.Titan also shouls reduce the fear of Deeding your own board.



That said, my playstyle with SFM is more to force pressure early. I was running 3 SFM plus BS/Jitte. I must add that most of it was around that time UR Treasure Cruise and Burn where all over the place, so landing a BS ASAP was often what you'd want/need. But still being able to pressure with a quick BS/Jitte can be problematic for any matchup outside of combo. If this does not win you the game, then it will provide a smooth transition to the mid-/lategame for Rhino/Sigarda to take over (especially if you still have the equipment on the board).



Playing Jitte into a trap like Elves is something to consider, but is not a reason not to run Jitte. One should know how to dodge the Quiron Range/Wirewood Symbiote tricks and Fetch into Arbor nonsense :-)

The thing i like about SFM is it's ability to pressure early, and become a threat later on. But sometimes it indeed leaves you swords swords and no creatures, or clunky openers or draws.
For now i am not playing SFM and choose a more streamlined version.


@Toxic Waste NicFit (Eldrazi)

Centering the deck more into the game ending bombs seems like the way to go. Personally i think that Fatal's original build is closest to what it should be. At least, it is a very compact build. The suggestion of Echelon to use Fierce Empath is pretty solid as it enables to dig for bombs more easy then with Eye of Ugin alone. Also PrimeTime could be run as a one-off rather then play a full set. Fatal's list also runs Karn Liberated, which is really sweet. That card is basically a better version of Liliana of the Veil. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is optional to. With those cards, do we require to run Diabolic Intent? In the long shot, with Meren and E.Witness one could loop Diabolic Intent, but i guess that's cornercase. The benefit of Fatal's list is that it doesn't actually need to run Wastes mana. And i do not think that the list becomes better with Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper and/or Warping Wail, unless maybe it focusses more on a midrange/aggro plan and drop the comboesque Emrakul finish.

[Ralf]

SFM in Nic Fit works. Period.

I won a tourny with it.

http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=12315 (scroll to mid page)


The real question might be:

"what equipment should you play?"

Here is my reasoning:

1) If you have access to some sweeper MD (Pernicious to name it), Jitte might not be mandatory

2) If you don't have access to sweeper MD, Jitte IS mandatory.

3) From there I would always play at least Batterskull. The raw power of this equipment is too high to not play it:
- a few deck will lose to it, eventually. It has a super super endgame power.
- you CAN race goblin tokens (T2 SFM -> BSK) if you have started

4) If you don't play Jitte, I would certainly test these 2 swords before the others:
- SOFI because on paper it is a true clock + CA (and a spot removal, somehow)
- SOFAF because Nic Fit is by nature weak to combo.

And if you ask me, in a vacuum, Jitte > All.

[rubblekill]

May I direct you to one of your posts on page 152, good sir?



And on that same page you adressed the following concern:



So it seems that what you're suggesting is something you yourself are against. What's up with that? Some pages ago mana efficiency is a thing but as soon as it conflicts with what you're suggesting it isn't? Could you explain how that works?

You are the guy that plays edh trash like Karador and starved rusalka, and you talk about mana consumption of the best white 2 drop in the history of this game. Cool.
I agree with Bob and from now on I'll just ignore you, this is a very friendly thread and I don't think there is space for "you are The Guy" kind of drama. Good bye sir.

I agree with you Ralf, but what about a third equipment? And sobam? Have you personally tested it?

@Bob: solas I don't like, I think it's a weaker sword. Against plow we have thrun, which I now ONLY play in the equipment version. Thrun lets us have protection vs plow and lets us play stronger equipment imo.

[Echelon]

And as usual he dodges the question with a smokescreen. GG.

Also, a one time result in a 5 round tournament with a completely different build over 14 months ago equals good in any build? Cool.

On topic: Hurray, Nic Fit. Sparkles, rainbows & unicorns. Let's hope the new set we get gives us some more goodies. Or Veteran Explorers with Dora the Explorer artwork. I would so run that shit.

[Ralf]

And as usual he dodges the question with a smokescreen. GG.

Also, a one time result in a 5 round tournament with a completely different build over 14 months ago equals good in any build? Cool.

On topic: Hurray, Nic Fit. Sparkles, rainbows & unicorns. Let's hope the new set we get gives us some more goodies. Or Veteran Explorers with Dora the Explorer artwork. I would so run that shit.

http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?postid=3997848#post3997848

Hmmm.

Put your mouth where your money is...

Take a break. Have a cig, or whatever.
We are "all" gentleman, here.

[Echelon]

The build in that forum also is a Birthing Pod list where the list being discussed is a "regular" list without Pod. They're still not comparable. Apples and oranges, no matter how many oranges you throw at it.

But yeah, I'm working on it. Your words apply to all builds discussed here, by the way.

[Tom4ik]

I think the biggest benefit to running equips is that Nic fit is filled with creatures with meaningless bodies. 4 vet, some amount of drs, witness, and any number of gsz targets. Equips mean that those creatures need removal. Your point of point kill spells at the creature and now the equipment is worthless doesnt exactly mean anything if the bros they are shooting down are vets and witnesses and such. Those are creatures that would not normally need to be killed but with a jitte or Sofi they do.

Also, equipment was used in the context of rhino. Here it absolutely makes sense. While rhino is certainly a big body at 4/5 it is not always larger than goyf. It also is smaller than angler. Those are 2 fairly played cards.

Sfm itself also lends itself very well to the attrition nature of the deck. You are up a 1/2 while also tutoring for a specific equipment. That 1/2 can be sac fodder for therapy or a body for that equipment.

[Ricardio]

I think the biggest benefit to running equips is that Nic fit is filled with creatures with meaningless bodies. 4 vet, some amount of drs, witness, and any number of gsz targets. Equips mean that those creatures need removal. Your point of point kill spells at the creature and now the equipment is worthless doesnt exactly mean anything if the bros they are shooting down are vets and witnesses and such. Those are creatures that would not normally need to be killed but with a jitte or Sofi they do.

Also, equipment was used in the context of rhino. Here it absolutely makes sense. While rhino is certainly a big body at 4/5 it is not always larger than goyf. It also is smaller than angler. Those are 2 fairly played cards.

Sfm itself also lends itself very well to the attrition nature of the deck. You are up a 1/2 while also tutoring for a specific equipment. That 1/2 can be sac fodder for therapy or a body for that equipment.

Agreed with all of these. I think in the sfm dedicated builds, that some number of lingering souls need to be played. that card was printed to play alongside of equipment.

Don't forget that we are one of the only decks that can reliably pay 5 to equip a batterskull. 8/9 trample vigil lifelink Skillerhino. #justmagicalchristmaslandthings

But by playing sfm and molding the deck in such a way, you change from a board control deck into a weird ramp midrange deck. the value is obvious in all builds of nic fit.

[Fatal]

@Toxic Waste NicFit (Eldrazi)

Centering the deck more into the game ending bombs seems like the way to go. Personally i think that Fatal's original build is closest to what it should be. At least, it is a very compact build. The suggestion of Echelon to use Fierce Empath is pretty solid as it enables to dig for bombs more easy then with Eye of Ugin alone. Also PrimeTime could be run as a one-off rather then play a full set. Fatal's list also runs Karn Liberated, which is really sweet. That card is basically a better version of Liliana of the Veil. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is optional to. With those cards, do we require to run Diabolic Intent? In the long shot, with Meren and E.Witness one could loop Diabolic Intent, but i guess that's cornercase. The benefit of Fatal's list is that it doesn't actually need to run Wastes mana. And i do not think that the list becomes better with Thought-Knot Seer, Matter Reshaper and/or Warping Wail, unless maybe it focusses more on a midrange/aggro plan and drop the comboesque Emrakul finish.


Not sure what we want to achieve replacing one of the titans with Fierce Empath - from my point of view Titan is just better in this slot. Let's look closer on few scenerios.

Q: When we want resolve Fierce Empath ?
A: When we have enough mana for bomb which we find from it, without mana we can't cast it.

Q: What targets to find from Fierce Empath ?
A: Primeval Titan and Eldrazi, depends on available mana. Titan gives mana and option with Eye to cast Eldrazi, so in 99% it will be Titan.

Cutting target which we gonna find is just making it slower. For example:

I have mana to cast Titan, I drew Fierce Empath, so I need to wait one turn. to cast it's target. In that turn opponent can additional discard my searched Titan.

Only advantage with running Fierce Empathy is when it's additional to 4 Titans (I think it's enough really with 4 GSZ, it's virtual 4 Titans) is to dodge wasteland, which is quite nice. Let me describe scenerio:

Opponent has wasteland in hand and waiting for our Eye of Ugin, we cast Titan, its etb trigger, we found Clodpost and Eye. Opponent answer with wasteland vs Eye, but he still need to handle 6/6 Trample Titan which will gives a lot of CA, CQ and life. Let's assume that he also has swords to plowshares and kill Titan. Then we have empty board, a lot of mana and Eye of Ugin in graveyard. In this case when we draw GSZ - we already have Eternal Witness to bring back Eye from gaveyard which would be my target from GSZ, even if I would run Fierce Empath I would like to have uncounterable, repeatable way to find Eldrazi's, not just one shot which can be discarded or Stifled.

Conclusion - it's worth only if we want more Titans then 4 MD, cutting Titan to add Firce Empath is not worth, makes deck slower and more vulnerable to discard.

On the other hand I like idea of having more then 4 Titans, 4 GSZ adding Fierce Empath gives us 1 more :-) but finding spot for it will be really hard.

[Bobmans]

Fatal, it might be, but i am not fully convinced. Running 4 PrimeTime clogs up deckspace. Feels that if you go nore into the NicFit way of treathing creatures rather then the Turbo approach you might just have a smoother play. Empath turns your late game GSZ into Eldrazi. Shouldn't be to hard getting 15-20 mana on the lategame. Testing should be conclusive. I will throw together your list with the empath tweaks in paper for coming weekend.


It feels like we are the not-miracles miracles deck. That being said......I think I want a bonfire in the deck.


This. Bonfire does feel right for the deck, except that this does not run Brainstorm/Jacestorm to put the Miracle card back. Maybe a bit to random.

[Tom4ik]

This. Bonfire does feel right for the deck, except that this does not run Brainstorm/Jacestorm to put the Miracle card back. Maybe a bit to random.

Annnnnnnddddd we are back to 4 color Franken-Fit. Lol

[Bobmans]

Annnnnnnddddd we are back to 4 color Franken-Fit. Lol
So?

[Arianrhod]

Annnnnnnddddd we are back to 4 color Franken-Fit. Lol

I actually love that name, lol.

Also, getting hit by a topdeck/sandbagged Eye of Ugin is a worthwhile risk to the power it provides, I think. You can always opt to not search for the Eye if you're worried about it (or if they have a wasteland just sitting in play waiting for you). They still have to deal with the Primeval Titan and the lands its getting out of your deck. I don't think that Empath is a bad idea per se, but I do think that it suffers (as it usually does) from being a chronically 63rd card or so. It's something that we wouldn't mind, but there's just usually better options than.

From my initial results, Primeval Titan is the best card in the deck, by a lot -- but I don't think that the deck actually wants to run more than 1 copy of him...maybe one more in the board with Wishes, but the more I've thought about them, the more I've started to think that while the deck would like to have the Wishes, the space constraints (both main and side) might just be too much.

[uncletiggy]

I'll cast my lot on the stoneforge discussion and reiterate that stoneforge is a very viable option to ensure your rhino is king of the board. I also still believe that playing more then a 3-4 card sfm package dilutes the rhino plan too much. I've traditionally played 1-2 sfm and always a sofi. solas and jitte switched frequently between main and side always playing more swords the squires. it's worth noting that evan with the 3 card package some percentage of the time a turn 2 stoneforge will snowball into a win with this deck vs a large percentage of the feild.

As a side note I have never placed any priority on sfm. For me its always been the thing floating three cards down with top waiting till ive cleaned the board and deployed a rhino to ensure he closes the door. I currently have 2 truths and a nightmare in these flex slots.

That being said I have little past experience and no experience in the current metagame playing a true blade varient with 3-4 sfm bskull and 1-2 sticks. I feel there are better shells then rhino to run it in if thats your game plan(i.e. pod or esper).

[sdematt]

I think playing 2 SFM and 2 Equips, similar to Maverick, is a viable option, but you have to cut slots from somewhere, and they're already tight.

I think Junk is a very good option right now, not only because of your disruption, but the life gain on Rhino swings many midrangey games in your favour, not only the 4/5 trampling. The life gain allows you to Truth or Sylvan and not be red-lining so hard with your life total. Sigards is your go-to gameplan when you can, though. I've found Nightmare to be clunky lately, so I'm back on Intent and Meren to give them a go again.

This isn't to say Jund is bad at all, but I think you really have to lean on higher drops, which makes your builds a tad more clunky. Nothing wrong with Fires, for sure. I really like Stormbreath as a 2-of, but you're likely still having to run Thrun, and likely multiple Tusk to have the same life-gain width.

I'm not an expert on BUG or Eldrazi, so I'm not going to comment on it.

I also don't think 4C is bad, either. I'm splashing red for Slaughter Games, and you could easily splash white in Jund for Teeg/Canonist. I don't think I'd want Rhino since you have few ways to cast it, at least maindeck, and I don't really think it's a SB card either.

If I were on Jund, I'd try:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 DRS
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Thragtusk
15

3 Punishing Fires
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Top
2 Truth
2 Liliana
4 GSZ
4 Therapy
24

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
22

2 Slaughter Games
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reclamation Sage
+4 Flex


Where to fit Meren? No idea.

[Bobmans]

Where to fit Meren? No idea.

-1 Tragtusk should do it.

[Arianrhod]

Matt's opinion on SFM is basically also my opinion on SFM. In no way do I think it's a bad option, but cards have to be cut to make room somehow, which is very challenging in a deck like Nic Fit that could happily fill 70-75 card maindecks before running a "bad" card. At the end of the day, if you want to run SFM, nobody's stopping you or going to yell at you. It's a fine option, as are lots of others.

[Tom4ik]

Nic Fit exists on a spectrum. From full on (basically) creature-less BUG walker control to pod/junk style midrange aggro decks. This lends the deck to an enormous amount of choices due to most people having slight preferences. I think this is one of the few decks that have a lower core of cards as the available options are very high.

This is simultaneously the joy and bane of this thread...

[Ricardio]

OH, is it my turn to beat the dead horse? NAW!

I have tried sfm in nic fit, specifically Skillerhino Junky and it aint where ya wanna be, if ya know what I mean.
The game plan is to play the better creatures than your opponent and attack on an axis so straight forward that your opponent sees it coming but cant stop it(RHINO STAMPEDE)
SFM is a different, much smaller, game plan that we don't even need. Not to mention it makes our outside looking in deck a stoneblade deck. We play the creatures in our deck because they are great not because some stupid 1/2 bitch gets us equipment to make them better.

I'm saying if ya havin' threat problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got 4 Skillerhinos and a bitch aint one.

[Bobmans]

OH, is it my turn to beat the dead horse? NAW!

I have tried sfm in nic fit, specifically Skillerhino Junky and it aint where ya wanna be, if ya know what I mean.
The game plan is to play the better creatures than your opponent and attack on an axis so straight forward that your opponent sees it coming but cant stop it(RHINO STAMPEDE)
SFM is a different, much smaller, game plan that we don't even need. Not to mention it makes our outside looking in deck a stoneblade deck. We play the creatures in our deck because they are great not because some stupid 1/2 bitch gets us equipment to make them better.

I'm saying if ya havin' threat problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got 4 Skillerhinos and a bitch aint one.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160127/e4d1d88582d9f7f711aa73278cf2ccbc.jpg

[uncletiggy]

someone please photoshop some batterskull armor and a sofi in his mouth for me....

[Meyer]

someone please photoshop some batterskull armor and a sofi in his mouth for me....

Yessss please!



On Stoneforge Mystic:
I think the discussion about SFM in Junk/Rhino Fit is an important one. As some of you explained before, this package is a crucial indicator for the direction of the build. At its hardest point, we move from the board control deck we used to be into a more „junkish“ midrange control deck.

In my opinion this isn't bad at all. We still play the bigger creatures. They only get better with equipments without them beeing win-more. As I stated before, sometimes a turn 3 Batterskull was my only way to survive early beats by aggressive decks. Yes, sometimes you blow up your sword or jitte with deed. But that means you were forced to do it, because your opponent otherwise would win the game and likely looses much more stuff than you are.
If your meta has a lot of Angler or Goyf, an equiped sword will make the difference between win and loss very often!

With the rise of Meren I cut my 3rd SFM, with the thought of having the chance to play another SFM twice a game. My package includes Batterskull and SoFaI main, with Jitte being in the sideboard. Knowing this is a debateable choice, the sword still did the most work for me: it singlehandedly crushes all kind of Delver decks when played correctly, and it gives me another helpful card in my main enemy no.1 matchup Shardless BUG (last week my lone Qasali Pridemage equiped with SoFaI faced a board of Strix, tapped Deathrite Shaman, his one-of TNN, Sylvan Library, Jace and Liliana with a resolved Vision last turn. He was at 9 life and my plan was to come unblocked for 4+2 dmg and then zenithing him to death with Siege Rhino. But the Visions gave him another Decay...)

Nonetheless, as Ari said, each of us has to decide wether to play it or not. But don't forget: We are no typical Stoneblade Deck, the Kor girl is not our main way to pressure. In Nic Fit, it complements our threats (usually Rhino/Sigarda, but why not Meren/Witness or anything else?) while also helping us to stabilize or to break board symmetry, which are very important things.

[hobart]

I had been working on a BUG walkers list, even bought some pieces and threw it together IRL, but it had issues. However, this Junk Beatdown version I'm tinkering with is putting up great results on cockatrice, and I've started to acquire the few cards I need to put it together for my next live tourney:

Creatures: 19

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Siege Rhino
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda Host of Herons
1x Grave Titan

Spells: 15

4x Path to Exile
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
1x Birthing Pod
2x Painful Truths

Enchantments: 3

3x Pernicious Deed

Lands: 23

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas

Sideboard: 15

2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
2x Engineered Plague
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Krosan Grip

There's lots of decision points with this deck when it comes to design:

-For example, I've gone back and forth on Recurring Nightmare. Seems like it would be great, but most of the games where I draw it I'd rather just have a creature (or GSZ of course). You could say the same thing about Pod, but I'm still running it because it's not reliant on graveyard, and it's less overall mana commitment.

-I originally had a few abrupt decays, but as it has been said a few pages back, 3cc and less permanents generally aren't a big issue for this deck, it just goes bigger. I have found this in practice also to be the case.

-STP at first glance seems so great to me, but after I started playing with PTE I realized the primary beatdown plan was getting there so much more often. I observed several instances where a PTE drawn or in the hand won the game on the spot, whereas STP would give my opponent at least one other draw step.

-4 whole siege rhinos seems weird to me, but it's really where I want to be. If i've got the mana it's pretty much always the card I want to draw or GSZ for in most matchups.

-small green gsz toolbox package. I love it, having access to Teeg gives me a great shot game 1 against decks like storm, has obvious impacts in other popular matchups. Same goes for the other silver bullets I'm running.

-the 3-drop slot in this deck is very tricky, and it's where I struggle the most. I was originally running a Kourser of Kruphix, and it was pretty spicy, but too often I wanted to GSZ for witness after I had already used a witness, and for that reason I made the switch. The Knight of the Reliquary also seems odd, as it can't really be utilized fully with no wastelands, but I'm sticking with him as of now just because he's such a great beater for the mana he usually just draws removal or wins the game for you.

-Painful truths has been amazing every time it's drawn. This deck has the life gain to support multiple copies, and there have been a few games where it's been cast, brought back with witness and cast again which is wonderful.

[Fatal]

I actually love that name, lol.

Also, getting hit by a topdeck/sandbagged Eye of Ugin is a worthwhile risk to the power it provides, I think. You can always opt to not search for the Eye if you're worried about it (or if they have a wasteland just sitting in play waiting for you). They still have to deal with the Primeval Titan and the lands its getting out of your deck. I don't think that Empath is a bad idea per se, but I do think that it suffers (as it usually does) from being a chronically 63rd card or so. It's something that we wouldn't mind, but there's just usually better options than.

From my initial results, Primeval Titan is the best card in the deck, by a lot -- but I don't think that the deck actually wants to run more than 1 copy of him...maybe one more in the board with Wishes, but the more I've thought about them, the more I've started to think that while the deck would like to have the Wishes, the space constraints (both main and side) might just be too much.

Agreed that Titan is best card in this deck, from my testing - if you don't have Therapy to took down FoW, they will let resolve all other threads just to have answer to Titan, which lead to ganing initiative. Power of this construction is thread density which wins you game after it resolve. You right that 1 Titan is enough to win, but I would add 1 "Resolved" Titan, you want always play it as soon as it is possible, even if it's mean you trade it for their FoW, having 4 with GSZ is guarantee that you will draw more of them, they don't have so many permission to counter all of them.

I didnt test wishes build yet so can't judge them, but for sure Titan as a card have advantages on it's own - it's faster, dodge almost all permission in sort of spell snare, flusterstorm, Wail, Spell Pierce, CB etc.. Only good answers are FoWs and Counterspells. On other side Wish gives versatility in sort answers to proper decks which can be worth, win by Titan is sometimes to slow, you need dedicated disruption to survive vs combo for example. Proper testing is needed to answer this question.

I will test this list with sb:

3 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
3 Living Wish
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Eye of Ugin
SB: 1 Primeval Titan

Thing which I dont like on start is having so many 1-ofs which lead to problem with wishes after SB. If you add for example Gaddock in G2 to MD, you can't wish for it, same is with Bojuka Bog (for sure it's better under crop rotation on instant speed).

[tescrin]

Titan stuff

This was my way of building Junk for sure. I looked at Titan as a way to ensure that S&T couldn't just plop S&T and win. My favorite time was:

Op: S&T?
Me: Resolves (windmill Titan)
Me: Fetch Karakas and Maze of ith :D

Felt good. IMO, run a couple Manlands so your Prime-time can also be a Grave Titan.
BTW, you can instead Cabal Coffers and Urborg as a different thread that cranks out Emmy's does.

[TTX]

Hey guys,

I've been playing around with Abzan Nic Fit for a couple weeks, and I'm really enjoying the deck overall. It's got an answer to almost every deck in the meta (except I find OmniShow still pretty difficult).

Any suggestions about modifying the list? Siege Rhino is definitely a beast, and perhaps Dromoka would be better as a third Rhino, but the 5 lifelink every turn is sometimes better.
This list a rough adaptation of Echelon's and Bobman's (I think), and it has been very consistent and reliable in my hands. What do you guys think? Is it redundant to have Courser and Nissa? Should Dromoka be taken out? Path to Exile is so good!

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath

2 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Militant
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tsunami