[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Tom4ik]

DLD? That is a 6 drop creature creature has actual relevant abilities against both aggro and combo in addition to being good in midrange grind fests. I am also of the opinion that the deck does not need a 6 drop creature but I can understand the allure and as far as 6 cmc bros go that DLD is pretty good. I would still think most lists would get better milage out of a prime time but ehhh.

[Ricardio]

Literally just woke up - DLD?

Dragonlord Dromoka. Get with the times, Matt. Acronyms are totes in. Get on the train or get left behind, bro.

[Bobmans]

Aargh, haha. We are going in circles again. I was just happy with my JPN Spiritmonger and now i am in doubt again....
Skeletal Scying that much of an addition next to?;
1 Nissa
2 Pruths
3 SDT
I did cut Courser so i can have 2 MD DRS. I don't like it, but choices..

[Ricardio]

Aargh, haha. We are going in circles again. I was just happy with my JPN Spiritmonger and now i am in doubt again....
Skeletal Scying that much of an addition next to?;
1 Nissa
2 Pruths
3 SDT
I did cut Courser so i can have 2 MD DRS. I don't like it, but choices..

I have 2 SDT, 3 pruth and 1 skeletal. Nissa died to pfire 5 too many times. Courser giving up info is too much for me, not to mention on mtgo they take FOREVER TO document what you are drawing.

[Bobmans]

I have 2 SDT, 3 pruth and 1 skeletal. Nissa died to pfire 5 too many times. Courser giving up info is too much for me, not to mention on mtgo they take FOREVER TO document what you are drawing.

While i ditched Courser, i am staying on Nissa. The card is a house and drags you thru to late-game. You need to plan to play it at a board that allows her to live, but that is the faith of every planeswalker. Also you can trick bait removal with an untapped fetchland. If they try to target it, then crack the fetch in response. She transforms and the removal lost its target.
That said, Courser was a tad to slow for the way this deck is now. Deathrite Shaman is not desirable in every match-up, but at least he assists in mana, life, attrition and is solid vs a part of our combo MU's. And he is an potential T1 play. I keep going back and forth with this card.

[tescrin]

why would you use dragonlord over Primetime, Sigarda, Grave Titan, etc..? Lifelink doesn't seem worth it. Not countering it isn't that relevant unless you're running a bunch of copies (GSZ) and casting spells only on their turn doesn't seem that important IMO.

I'd love to hear about it though. Still. primetime getting you 2 cards *now* or Grave giving you 2 zombos now seems better.

[Bobmans]

why would you use dragonlord over Primetime, Sigarda, Grave Titan, etc..? Lifelink doesn't seem worth it. Not countering it isn't that relevant unless you're running a bunch of copies (GSZ) and casting spells only on their turn doesn't seem that important IMO.

I'd love to hear about it though. Still. primetime getting you 2 cards *now* or Grave giving you 2 zombos now seems better.

For me, the impact PrimeTime has on games is fairly low (at least from my experiance). Games where your struggling to stay in the match getting PrimeTime and more lands did way to little for a 6/7 mana investment. If i'd play 2 towers then PrimeTime fetching those might be a consideration if you can loop Thragtusk, Eternal Witness or Siege Rhino. But that is that. Often you indeed want some impact NOW, just like you say. DLD puts a giant flying wall with Lifelink, which is/can be very much relevant. I hear people argue that we already run 4 Rhino's, but somehow i felt that it misses that 1 or 2 extra points of lifegain. Thragtusk would make perfect sense in that regard, if it weren't for the so so body it provides. Talking about Grave Titan, yes it is brutal. But not green. Sun Titan is also a solid consideration since it has potential to fully lock-out a board with Eternal Witness or Pernicious Deed. But again not green.
Sigarda is obviously the best high CMC you'd want and it is often enough. But sometimes it isn't. We have yet to find the perfect 6 drop and DLD makes a solid spot and so do Grave Titan, Sun Titan and Primeval Titan. All fine but not airtight. Those have all pros and cons.

[tescrin]

For me, the impact PrimeTime has on games is fairly low (at least from my experiance). Games where your struggling to stay in the match getting PrimeTime and more lands did way to little for a 6/7 mana investment. If i'd play 2 towers then PrimeTime fetching those might be a consideration if you can loop Thragtusk, Eternal Witness or Siege Rhino. But that is that. Often you indeed want some impact NOW, just like you say.

When I ran Primetime I ran some Manlands as well though; allowing me to impact the board quite well. Add a Maze of Ith, Karakas, and similar; and you have some pretty brutal fetches when he lands. He can just grab Maze + Manland and swing away. That's stalling power and CA that can't just be Plowed/Lily'd/Jaced/etc. Maze + Man + Primetime is two beaters and a staller (and certainly you could get two men, or other variations.)

It sometimes didn't quite work right; but I was a much worse legacy player the last time I was playing nic fit lol.

[Ricardio]

When I ran Primetime I ran some Manlands as well though; allowing me to impact the board quite well. Add a Maze of Ith, Karakas, and similar; and you have some pretty brutal fetches when he lands. He can just grab Maze + Manland and swing away. That's stalling power and CA that can't just be Plowed/Lily'd/Jaced/etc. Maze + Man + Primetime is two beaters and a staller (and certainly you could get two men, or other variations.)

It sometimes didn't quite work right; but I was a much worse legacy player the last time I was playing nic fit lol.

it seems like an interesting enough idea and as much of a prime time fan boy I am, I do not think he is the correct 6 cmc creature for the junk rhino fit list.

Albeit DLD dies to STP and gets bounced into oblivion by karakas, I believe it to be a better card quality for what we want to do and does not require us to change up our land based on single 6 drop we play.

[Tom4ik]

Some people have been playing a punishing fire list with white. Here Prime time is better than any other 6 drop. Not only does he search up groves but the engine is mana intensive anyways so getting land in play is a big deal.

If i was on a strict junk version I would probably play a stirring wildwood and stronghold/tower for the main targets. Honestly I would probably put 2 horizon canopy in the deck too. That allows a late game titan/gsz to tutor up a 6/6 that also draws 2.

[sdematt]

it seems like an interesting enough idea and as much of a prime time fan boy I am, I do not think he is the correct 6 cmc creature for the junk rhino fit list.

Albeit DLD dies to STP and gets bounced into oblivion by karakas, I believe it to be a better card quality for what we want to do and does not require us to change up our land based on single 6 drop we play.

The call may also may be to just run 2 Sigarda. Overall, I'm still going to jam Spiritmonger.

I do love me some Skeletal Scrying, but I just do not have the slots.

-Matt

[Warden]

For me, the impact PrimeTime has on games is fairly low (at least from my experiance). Games where your struggling to stay in the match getting PrimeTime and more lands did way to little for a 6/7 mana investment. If i'd play 2 towers then PrimeTime fetching those might be a consideration if you can loop Thragtusk, Eternal Witness or Siege Rhino. But that is that. Often you indeed want some impact NOW, just like you say. DLD puts a giant flying wall with Lifelink, which is/can be very much relevant. I hear people argue that we already run 4 Rhino's, but somehow i felt that it misses that 1 or 2 extra points of lifegain. Thragtusk would make perfect sense in that regard, if it weren't for the so so body it provides. Talking about Grave Titan, yes it is brutal. But not green. Sun Titan is also a solid consideration since it has potential to fully lock-out a board with Eternal Witness or Pernicious Deed. But again not green.
Sigarda is obviously the best high CMC you'd want and it is often enough. But sometimes it isn't. We have yet to find the perfect 6 drop and DLD makes a solid spot and so do Grave Titan, Sun Titan and Primeval Titan. All fine but not airtight. Those have all pros and cons.

This is so fucking true. However, the problem I have with DLD is its cost + NicFit either making me say "I don't have enough mana" or "I have too much mana". If I can smooth out my mana ramp to consistently hit 6 mana, DLD is in. If I can't figure that out, DLD is out.

Sigarda is the queen right now because I can rather consistently achieve 5 mana (4 lands and a DRS or 5 lands does happen). However, I play games where I'm color screwed and/or just stalling around 4. Shit, I had to make due last event running off 2 basics and a Carpet to eventually win a game. DLD is sometimes just "impossible" to cast at 6 mana. Again, I know a lot of that is a byproduct of the other 59 cards in my decklist, but it's a hell of an obstacle to overcome.

The games I'm mana flooded you have no idea how bad I wish I was packing DLD.

@Skeletal Scrying: Card is a boss. You just shit all over the opponent the longer the game goes because X grows larger and larger. Those games where you're around 25-30 life due to excessive Rhinos, DRS activations, Scooze, Tusk you S.Scrying for X = 6+. Unreal card draws.

[tescrin]

I almost mentioned Hero of Bladehold; as I assume dodging Bolt, PFire, Decay, and (usually) Liliana should be pretty good. Being a 2-turn clock seems good. I'm guessing you guys have tested that; but I wouldn't be surprised if jamming 3x Bladehold would just rofl-stomp a lot of fair stuff.

That said, being boardstalled by Goyf is probably lame.

[sdematt]

I almost mentioned Hero of Bladehold; as I assume dodging Bolt, PFire, Decay, and (usually) Liliana should be pretty good. Being a 2-turn clock seems good. I'm guessing you guys have tested that; but I wouldn't be surprised if jamming 3x Bladehold would just rofl-stomp a lot of fair stuff.

That said, being boardstalled by Goyf is probably lame.

I think most of the time, I have to choose Sigarda over Baneslayer (for different matchups and reasons), and Spiritmonger still loses to Sigarda in terms of flexibility (but SM is better on the mana). Could it be that running the 2nd is just the call?

Think of it like this. Do you need to have both of your 5-drops out at once? Probably not necessary. I think you'll find few times where you HAVE to have them out, since usually, you have a critter, Rhino, and THEN you cast Sigarda and the game is over. 5/5 Sigarda wins against Average Goyf, but not against what it will typically be against us (5/6 due to Enchantment/art in the yard). So, it's hard to say. Your BUg/Jund/Miracles/Maze of Ith/Emrakul matchups increase even more, but it obviously does nothing for the bad matchups (Combo).

I love Scrying, but the long term gain off Sylvan is also very, very good, so I'd have to run both. 3 Top/1 Sylvan/2 Truths/1 Scrying seems like a cool package (plus it keeps up with BS+Ponder).

[Echelon]

Concerning 6-drops: I like mine to be GSZ'able. That means one has to be able to ramp up to 7 mana consistently instead of 6 (and 6 for Sigarda instead of 5). While Dromoka doesn't affect the board state immediately, he does pose a threat that needs to be disposed of immediately and the only decks able to easily get rid of it are those running white. In the worst case scenario that would mean you just board out Dromoka games 2 & 3 for your sideboard stuff, problem solved. See it as a big Sigarda with lifelink. Sometimes just Sigarda isn't enough, but Sigarda with +0/+2 and lifelink might still be able to save you.

When wanting to run non-green 6-drops, I recommend also running a Fierce Empath so you can still "GSZ" for them when needed. The ability to GSZ for that over the top 6-drop can completely turn the game around when it goes long.

I'm not a fan of Primeval Titan in the Junk build. Mostly b/c I don't have the room necessary in my manabase to make use of its triggers and I want to keep my manabase as compact as possible so I have more business stuff in the deck.

As for the 5-drops: The same holds true here. I like those to be GSZ'able too. 9 out of 10 times you'll probably GSZ for Sigarda, but that tenth time you're glad you brought the other 5-drop along for the ride. GSZ allows you to play a lot of diverse cards that you only get when really needed.

[rubblekill]

As I said, I think thAt the online meta is changing a little bit because of the eldrazi deck. That leads me to play sigarda AND Dromoka in the main with a tusk in the sb. Tusk is replacing DLD in the miracles match up; Elspeth replacing Meren in the same mu.

This is the configuration I feel more comfortable with. I would REALLY like to play SM but i don't have space, so I have to play either SM OR DLD.

[Bobmans]

As I said, I think thAt the online meta is changing a little bit because of the eldrazi deck. That leads me to play sigarda AND Dromoka in the main with a tusk in the sb.

Still i am worried that DLD is to slow for Eldrazi MU, Spiritmongol might be a step faster, yet still it worries me a bit in terms of landing on time. Anyone has any experience here already?

The biggest problem with Hero of Bladehold is obviously not being green ;-p
I know that Brimaz (kind of the same principal) can be very brutal in DnT. HoB could do the same, but 4 cmc slots are already taken (4x Rhino, 1x Meren). I have seen Chalice based DnT (sort of Angel Stompy), i think HoB has a better place there.

When looking at the DtB section i really feel that NicFit is in a good position right now. Aside of Eldrazi, i am convinced that right now NicFit can punch up to some solid top8 positions. Does anyone feel the seem way?

Im am trying to play online (xmage), but it doesn't feel right and it does not play the same as cardboard games. Kind hate it actually. So testing comes down to real life interaction. And that presses on the actual amount of games i can test. I am not going to play on MTGO, because i am not willing to invest on a virtual card collection.

[Echelon]

Still i am worried that DLD is to slow for Eldrazi MU, Spiritmongol might be a step faster, yet still it worries me a bit in terms of landing on time. Anyone has any experience here already?

I did mention Glissa, the Traitor a number of times before... Dies to every spotremoval in the format (that Eldrazi doesn't run) but wins every ground battle that isn't vs. a Darksteel/Blighsteel Colossus for 2 mana less than anything else mentioned so far.

[rubblekill]

Still i am worried that DLD is to slow for Eldrazi MU, Spiritmongol might be a step faster, yet still it worries me a bit in terms of landing on time. Anyone has any experience here already?

The biggest problem with Hero of Bladehold is obviously not being green ;-p
I know that Brimaz (kind of the same principal) can be very brutal in DnT. HoB could do the same, but 4 cmc slots are already taken (4x Rhino, 1x Meren). I have seen Chalice based DnT (sort of Angel Stompy), i think HoB has a better place there.

When looking at the DtB section i really feel that NicFit is in a good position right now. Aside of Eldrazi, i am convinced that right now NicFit can punch up to some solid top8 positions. Does anyone feel the seem way?

Im am trying to play online (xmage), but it doesn't feel right and it does not play the same as cardboard games. Kind hate it actually. So testing comes down to real life interaction. And that presses on the actual amount of games i can test. I am not going to play on MTGO, because i am not willing to invest on a virtual card collection.

My flex slot is occupied by nissa atm (since you all are so hyped about her). The mongol would take her place but I have Sigarda and DLD already. It's not like there is an abyss between 5-6 mana against eldrazi. I'm gonna switch between SM and DLD back and forth. Not only to see what's better against the field (probably DLD) but because I have fun like this.
The spikes are gonna despise me for this, but in nic fit I truly find enjoyable switching the bombs every now and then. More so because after a lot of reading AND testing the rest of the deck (and sb) is pretty much set in stone for me.

[Jain_Mor]

Here is the "DLD" you are looking for...

http://i.imgur.com/hngDDmS.jpg

And these are your eldrazi overlords...

http://i.imgur.com/Y7ecIHC.jpg

But yea, eldrazi run a lot of stuff that dies to deed and path to exile is great otherwise. They have to kill veteran explorer for you. Then you stabalise with a creature bigger than theirs (equipment helps).

My sideboard plan is generally:
-1 teeg -4 therapy (leaving their attackers, 2 intent and 2 towers as sac outlets),
+1 rec sage, +2 toxic deluge, +2 Garruk, PH (these games can go grindy)

edit: those images came out real big, apologies

[Bobmans]

I did mention Glissa, the Traitor a number of times before... Dies to every spotremoval in the format (that Eldrazi doesn't run) but wins every ground battle that isn't vs. a Darksteel/Blighsteel Colossus for 2 mana less than anything else mentioned so far.

I think that a BUG shell might suit Glissa better running Baleful Strix and perhaps some Trinket Mage to power out utility artifacts like Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb, Meekstone and/or Sensei's Divining Top. But that's just my brain trying to brew awesome shit every time i come across some cool mechanic/card.

Edit: And in the meanwhile, more to read..

Edit2: Seeing that Meren+Arbor.... Not sure i want to dedicate 4/5 slots on SFM/Equip. I am also a bit meh of DRS for dying to Deed lately. Still, the idea is starting to grow on me...

Brainfart: SFM based list with Glissa, i peeked at Jain_mors' list. SB is not set, but i do see some stuff like Engineered Explosives coming up. Sun Titan + Glissa (and friends) + E.Witness for complete lock-out's. I added Intent and Scrying for some tutoring/inevitability. 4 Path and 2 Decay may as well be a different configuration. I didn't include Siege Rhino, because i wanted to focus more on control then on midrange aggro.


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge

[Echelon]

I think that a BUG shell might suit Glissa better running Baleful Strix and perhaps some Trinket Mage to power out utility artifacts like Engineered Explosives, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb and/or Sensei's Divining Top. But that's just my brain trying to brew awesome shit every time i come across some cool mechanic/card.


Meh, just see Glissa as 3 mana, 3/3, first strike, deathtouch period. All that other stuff is just flavor text. And maybe some Jedi mind tricks towards your opponent.

[Ralf]

Edit2: Seeing that Meren+Arbor.... Not sure i want to dedicate 4/5 slots on SFM/Equip. I am also a bit meh of DRS for dying to Deed lately. Still, the idea is starting to grow on me...

Brainfart: SFM based list with Glissa, i peeked at Jain_mors' list. SB is not set, but i do see some stuff like Engineered Explosives coming up. Sun Titan + Glissa (and friends) + E.Witness for complete lock-out's. I added Intent and Scrying for some tutoring/inevitability. 4 Path and 2 Decay may as well be a different configuration. I didn't include Siege Rhino, because i wanted to focus more on control then on midrange aggro.

@ SFM builds

I think if you look back @ p.129 and friends, the SFM build has been discussed and dismissed by a lot of people.
Still, I have been a major proponent of such Junk builds for reasons that I have mentioned countless times.

SFM will win you many games on its own. Why ?

Because fair decks tend to die G1 against BSK. Period. And in a large tournament, YOU NEED FREE WINS (that loose keep which leaves your T2 SFM alive sounds familiar, isn't it ?) .
So, as we were already playing the best creature of all time, why not adding a nuclear weapon onto it...

Yes it looks like Maverick; but well Maverick was once a DTB...

Once SFM + equipments are in your shell, I truly think you can dish Pernicious Deed:
1) With SFM, there is more incentive to play arbor MD
2) Jitte is a "mini" deed on his own.
3) With SFM, there is more incentive to play a heavier creature build (Arbor, Sage, DRS etc...) because even a damn squirrel can carry your big weapon

As a matter of fact, if you want to play a sweeper, I think Toxic is what you should be rooting for:
1) In a SFM junk build, life is usually less than an issue (DRS, Ooze, Rhino, Tusk, Jitte, BSK)
2) Toxic is a FULL turn faster than Deed.
3) What isn't affected by Toxic is usually covered by other spells/creatures with ETB triggers.

I'm not saying Deed is a bad choice; but, with a SFM package, Toxic will usually get the job done with more synergy with your deck's core.

The only MU were Deed is king vs Toxic is Miracle.

Speaking of which, I have never found the match to be close (G1) even with Deed in...

So, I've learnt to scoop fast to Miracle G1 (max 10-15 mins), pack some strong hate and kick him in 3.


@ DLD

I've played DLD (and suggested it) a lot.
The card is definitely nice even if it fears karakas & swords.

I'm glad some posters are trying it.

Nevertheless, in a SFM build, I would stick with Sigarda. CMC 5 should be the end of your curve to be honest.
You are just playing two of the most powerful creatures in Legacy's history (Sigarda & BSK, Thrun being the 3rd). That is already plenty.

Sigarda+BSK > all fair decks (even if DLD+BSK> Sigarda+BSK, but I doubt you will ever face this scenario in a sanctioned event).

Have fun.

Ralf

[Bobmans]

@ SFM builds

I think if you look back @ p.129 and friends, the SFM build has been discussed and dismissed by a lot of people.
Still, I have been a major proponent of such Junk builds for reasons that I have mentioned countless times.

SFM will win you many games on its own. Why ?

Because fair decks tend to die G1 against BSK. Period. And in a large tournament, YOU NEED FREE WINS (that loose keep which leaves your T2 SFM alive sounds familiar, isn't it ?) .
So, as we were already playing the best creature of all time, why not adding a nuclear weapon onto it...

Yes it looks like Maverick; but well Maverick was once a DTB...

Once SFM + equipments are in your shell, I truly think you can dish Pernicious Deed:
1) With SFM, there is more incentive to play arbor MD
2) Jitte is a "mini" deed on his own.
3) With SFM, there is more incentive to play a heavier creature build (Arbor, Sage, DRS etc...) because even a damn squirrel can carry your big weapon

As a matter of fact, if you want to play a sweeper, I think Toxic is what you should be rooting for:
1) In a SFM junk build, life is usually less than an issue (DRS, Ooze, Rhino, Tusk, Jitte, BSK)
2) Toxic is a FULL turn faster than Deed.
3) What isn't affected by Toxic is usually covered by other spells/creatures with ETB triggers.

I'm not saying Deed is a bad choice; but, with a SFM package, Toxic will usually get the job done with more synergy with your deck's core.

The only MU were Deed is king vs Toxic is Miracle.

Speaking of which, I have never found the match to be close (G1) even with Deed in...

So, I've learnt to scoop fast to Miracle G1 (max 10-15 mins), pack some strong hate and kick him in 3.


@ DLD

I've played DLD (and suggested it) a lot.
The card is definitely nice even if it fears karakas & swords.

I'm glad some posters are trying it.

Nevertheless, in a SFM build, I would stick with Sigarda. CMC 5 should be the end of your curve to be honest.
You are just playing two of the most powerful creatures in Legacy's history (Sigarda & BSK, Thrun being the 3rd). That is already plenty.

Sigarda+BSK > all fair decks (even if DLD+BSK> Sigarda+BSK, but I doubt you will ever face this scenario in a sanctioned event).

Have fun.

Ralf



Thnx for your insight.

Toxic Deluge sometimes locks yourself, because Eldrazi is so fast that your life total might be to low to play Toxic Deluge. I have 1 Deluge on the board and it was ok. Deed can be to slow, but that i why i am bringing 4 Path's to the fight. Discarding a card to path a Smasher sux bigtime btw.
I would see Thrun in the list, but i am not sure what to cut.

I played 2 rounds against a BW version of Eldrazi running Karakas and 2 basic Plains (nice to both Glissa and Veteran Explorer, lol). Anyway, i was on 2-0 and 2-0 on both games. All where very grindy, and one game i was really close to being dead, staring at TKS, Eldrazi Displacer and a 1/1 Endless One (yes, xD). I was at 4. I had PTower, fetch, played Meren and cracked the fetch for Dryad Arbor, sacced it to PTower, spin top (see Sun Titan) and return Veteran Explorer. Knowing i would lose the SDT because i would draw into S.Titan and Veteran Explorer gave me the 6th and 7th land i needed for Titan. He went full force. Veteran blocked the TKS, Meren blocked the Displacer and 1/1 went unblocked. So i drew top in response, fetched two lands, untapped and drew into a Pernicious Deed. I cast the Sun Titan and returned Dryad Arbor. The turn after i GSZ into Tusk. The board was turned 180 degrees on that point.

So far the list feels smooth. Has answers to everything. Sun Titan not being green didn't cause awkward situations at all. It showed up 3 times (one time thru Diabolic Intent) Only downside is that it is mega grindy compared to 4 Rhino lists. Speaking of which, i was not really missing them.

Also one game i had both Jitte and BSK on Sigarda, but you are probably right that i will never happen during a sanctioned event.

And the singleton Skeletal Scrying was amazing to. I only used it one game, but it drew 6 cards eot.

Updated the above list with a sideboard.

boarding plan vs Eldrazi (tips welcome);
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Deathrite Shaman

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Qasali Pridemage

i went to 63 this way, both Nissa and Meren could have been cut since Karakas.... But i didn't want to do that (stubborn). In the end i had P.Needle on Karakas and both Meren and Nissa where winners, figures.

[Warden]

@Ralf: Maverick is no longer a DTB right now lol. I think Maverick has solid cards but its collective 60 are worsening over time. The game is shifting against dork midrange (with some exception to DnT). Nic Fit has cards that are very solid for the way legacy has evolved. It's just a matter of tweaking/exploiting meta games.

@SFM: I don't buy into the idea of making Nic Fit more Maverick looking. And I love Maverick. The issues with SFM are that 1) she eats 4-5 slots in your deck, 2) she does very little on her own, and 3) she doesn't fix "bad" matchups. Don't we already manhandle fair decks? We should think about improving tough matchups. The only "fair" decks I have to worry about in my meta are Delver variants. SFM doesn't help there either.

[Ricardio]

Thnx for your insight.

Toxic Deluge sometimes locks yourself, because Eldrazi is so fast that your life total might be to low to play Toxic Deluge. I have 1 Deluge on the board and it was ok. Deed can be to slow, but that i why i am bringing 4 Path's to the fight. Discarding a card to path a Smasher sux bigtime btw.
I would see Thrun in the list, but i am not sure what to cut.

I played 2 rounds against a BW version of Eldrazi running Karakas and 2 basic Plains (nice to both Glissa and Veteran Explorer, lol). Anyway, i was on 2-0 and 2-0 on both games. All where very grindy, and one game i was really close to being dead, staring at TKS, Eldrazi Displacer and a 1/1 Endless One (yes, xD). I was at 4. I had PTower, fetch, played Meren and cracked the fetch for Dryad Arbor, sacced it to PTower, spin top (see Sun Titan) and return Veteran Explorer. Knowing i would lose the SDT because i would draw into S.Titan and Veteran Explorer gave me the 6th and 7th land i needed for Titan. He went full force. Veteran blocked the TKS, Meren blocked the Displacer and 1/1 went unblocked. So i drew top in response, fetched two lands, untapped and drew into a Pernicious Deed. I cast the Sun Titan and returned Dryad Arbor. The turn after i GSZ into Tusk. The board was turned 180 degrees on that point.

So far the list feels smooth. Has answers to everything. Sun Titan not being green didn't cause awkward situations at all. It showed up 3 times (one time thru Diabolic Intent) Only downside is that it is mega grindy compared to 4 Rhino lists. Speaking of which, i was not really missing them.

Also one game i had both Jitte and BSK on Sigarda, but you are probably right that i will never happen during a sanctioned event.

And the singleton Skeletal Scrying was amazing to. I only used it one game, but it drew 6 cards eot.

Updated the above list with a sideboard.

boarding plan vs Eldrazi (tips welcome);
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Deathrite Shaman

+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Qasali Pridemage

i went to 63 this way, both Nissa and Meren could have been cut since Karakas. But i didn't want to that (stubborn). In the end i had P.Needle on Karakas and both Meren and Nissa where winners, figures.

Didn't....miss...Rhino? BLASPHEMY!


@Ralf: Maverick is no longer a DTB right now lol. I think Maverick has solid cards but its collective 60 are worsening over time. The game is shifting against dork midrange (with some exception to DnT). Nic Fit has cards that are very solid for the way legacy has evolved. It's just a matter of tweaking/exploiting meta games.

@SFM: I don't buy into the idea of making Nic Fit more Maverick looking. And I love Maverick. The issues with SFM are that 1) she eats 4-5 slots in your deck, 2) she does very little on her own, and 3) she doesn't fix "bad" matchups. Don't we already manhandle fair decks? We should think about improving tough matchups. The only "fair" decks I have to worry about in my meta are Delver variants. SFM doesn't help there either.

I 100% agree, Warden. Well said.

[Ralf]

@Ralf: Maverick is no longer a DTB right now lol. I think Maverick has solid cards but its collective 60 are worsening over time. The game is shifting against dork midrange (with some exception to DnT). Nic Fit has cards that are very solid for the way legacy has evolved. It's just a matter of tweaking/exploiting meta games.

@SFM: I don't buy into the idea of making Nic Fit more Maverick looking. And I love Maverick. The issues with SFM are that 1) she eats 4-5 slots in your deck, 2) she does very little on her own, and 3) she doesn't fix "bad" matchups. Don't we already manhandle fair decks? We should think about improving tough matchups. The only "fair" decks I have to worry about in my meta are Delver variants. SFM doesn't help there either.

1) That's why I used "was once a DTB"...

2) The slot you are devoting to other things (rather the 4/5 SFM slots) do not seem to improve bad matchups either. And I disagree, SFM -> BSK will give you some free wins against a lot of Delver variants.

Example:

a) BSK -> Tusk (same CMC)
b) Jitte -> 1 perni
c) 3 SFM -> 1 big bomb (6 CMC) & 2 Utility creatures

Basically, you get the "same" effect against fair decks as a standard Nic Fit list EXCEPT that you have somehow lowered the whole mana curve.

That is a "win-win" situation for me.

I have no time right now but I guess we could make a list pointing out what MU(s) a SFM package should improve compared with a standard list.

[Ricardio]

I know that playing mtgo you have to be able to beat:

Delver
Miracles
Shardless
DnT
Reanimator
ANT
Elstrampy (Eldrazi Stompy)

that is an overwhelmingly large percentage of the metagame.

As someone said before, they believe their delver matchup to be poor; I have never lost a game to delver where I resolved a vet trigger. that is the key to the matchup. I also run 4 decay so theres that as well.

[Sarda'z]

Hi there, gentlemen!
I'm an oldtime brazilian player and legacy aficionado. I'm new in the forum but I've already read all Shardless' and Nic Fit's Threads and have been digesting every information shared.
I must say this is the best thread I follow in years, considering amount and quality of discussions as well as the overall comradeship! Thank you all and congrats! I'll humbly try to contribute from now on...

Legacy is a very difficult format for starters here in Brazil due to cards availability and price (f*** brazilian currency), so most people who play the format stick to a single deck and adapt it to our meta which is close to US's and very diversified. IRL I'm a BUG player (delver, Shardless, control), while playing Nic Fit exclusively online (XMage). I've already tested straight BG, Junk, BUG and BUG Walkers lists and I agree with most of you guys that the Junk list is the most tuned list so far (although my all time favorite would be Walkers - and I'm currently working on a very special one).

As I'll not have the money to build Junk IRL for a while, I'm pointing it to the online meta. I'm not facing that much Eldrazi as expected, but I kind of attract combo decks (storm, S&T, Elvs mainly). This is my current build and I'd appreciate any tips.

23 Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

15 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

23 Other Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
2 (Diabolic Intent / Painful Truths)

15 Sideboard:
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Pithing Needle
2 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
1 (Baneslayer Angel / Elspeth / Garruk)

[rubblekill]

Hi there, gentlemen!
I'm an oldtime brazilian player and legacy aficionado. I'm new in the forum but I've already read all Shardless' and Nic Fit's Threads and have been digesting every information shared.
I must say this is the best thread I follow in years, considering amount and quality of discussions as well as the overall comradeship! Thank you all and congrats! I'll humbly try to contribute from now on...

Legacy is a very difficult format for starters here in Brazil due to cards availability and price (f*** brazilian currency), so most people who play the format stick to a single deck and adapt it to our meta which is close to US's and very diversified. IRL I'm a BUG player (delver, Shardless, control), while playing Nic Fit exclusively online (XMage). I've already tested straight BG, Junk, BUG and BUG Walkers lists and I agree with most of you guys that the Junk list is the most tuned list so far (although my all time favorite would be Walkers - and I'm currently working on a very special one).

As I'll not have the money to build Junk IRL for a while, I'm pointing it to the online meta. I'm not facing that much Eldrazi as expected, but I kind of attract combo decks (storm, S&T, Elvs mainly). This is my current build and I'd appreciate any tips.

23 Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

15 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

23 Other Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
2 (Diabolic Intent / Painful Truths)

15 Sideboard:
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Pithing Needle
2 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
1 (Baneslayer Angel / Elspeth / Garruk)

4ts 3surgical? That's some pretty intensive hate right there. Have you ever considered a 2/2 split between Ts and duress? Because that's what I'd do, 4ts is a lot of life loss

[Bobmans]

Hi there, gentlemen!
I'm an oldtime brazilian player and legacy aficionado. I'm new in the forum but I've already read all Shardless' and Nic Fit's Threads and have been digesting every information shared.
I must say this is the best thread I follow in years, considering amount and quality of discussions as well as the overall comradeship! Thank you all and congrats! I'll humbly try to contribute from now on...

Legacy is a very difficult format for starters here in Brazil due to cards availability and price (f*** brazilian currency), so most people who play the format stick to a single deck and adapt it to our meta which is close to US's and very diversified. IRL I'm a BUG player (delver, Shardless, control), while playing Nic Fit exclusively online (XMage). I've already tested straight BG, Junk, BUG and BUG Walkers lists and I agree with most of you guys that the Junk list is the most tuned list so far (although my all time favorite would be Walkers - and I'm currently working on a very special one).

As I'll not have the money to build Junk IRL for a while, I'm pointing it to the online meta. I'm not facing that much Eldrazi as expected, but I kind of attract combo decks (storm, S&T, Elvs mainly). This is my current build and I'd appreciate any tips.

23 Lands:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

15 Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

23 Other Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
2 (Diabolic Intent / Painful Truths)

15 Sideboard:
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Pithing Needle
2 (Maelstrom Pulse / Vindicate / Toxic Deluge)
1 (Baneslayer Angel / Elspeth / Garruk)

Welcome to the thread and the Source. Glad to have more NicFitter's.

List looks pretty streamlined. Not much to add other then 2 small things. Sooner i would play Liliana of the Veil in the board then i would play Fleshbag Marauder. The -2 effect of Liliana is mostly better. Teabagging your own Veteran Explorer might not come up often enough, sacrificing it for itself makes even Diabolic Edict a better card (instant). But Liliana sticks arround, put's pressure on your opponents hand. And if it catches removal then at least it was a 2 for 1 (card advantage).
The other thing is 3 Forests, 7 Basics. This will compliment recurring Veteran Explorer most and makes it more easy to cast and flip Nissa in the same turn while you can support your entire deck with all basics (screw you Wasteland/Loam/Blood Moon)..


Didn't....miss...Rhino? BLASPHEMY!

Mwuahaha!

[Arianrhod]

Two brief thoughts:

-) We're going back to Innistrad very soon. Considering that we got a new (albeit inferior) Linvala in Oath, we should keep an eye out for Sigarda 2.0. If any set could provide an upgrade or replacement to that slot, it's this set upcoming (or set two in the block, but you know what I mean). This is our best chance to get a 6-drop that we can all agree on, I think.

-) There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

[rubblekill]

Two brief thoughts:

-) We're going back to Innistrad very soon. Considering that we got a new (albeit inferior) Linvala in Oath, we should keep an eye out for Sigarda 2.0. If any set could provide an upgrade or replacement to that slot, it's this set upcoming (or set two in the block, but you know what I mean). This is our best chance to get a 6-drop that we can all agree on, I think.

-) There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

Oh the good ol amazing granny blowjobs..I cannot for the life of me forget that one liner.

[Bobmans]

Two brief thoughts:

-) We're going back to Innistrad very soon. Considering that we got a new (albeit inferior) Linvala in Oath, we should keep an eye out for Sigarda 2.0. If any set could provide an upgrade or replacement to that slot, it's this set upcoming (or set two in the block, but you know what I mean). This is our best chance to get a 6-drop that we can all agree on, I think.

-) There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

Let's hope so...

On the topic of Eldrazi + Moat/Humility. I would love that.
Rector + Diabolic Intent = Omniscience + Emrakul.
Or;
Doubling Season token confetti; with stuff as Humility, Collective Blessing (gotta love time stamps), Lingering Souls and combat planeswalker.

[Ricardio]

Oh the good ol amazing granny blowjobs..I cannot for the life of me forget that one liner.

I could be down with that painful quandary.


Let's hope so...

On the topic of Eldrazi + Moat/Humility. I would love that.
Rector + Diabolic Intent = Omniscience + Emrakul.
Or;
Doubling Season token confetti; with stuff as Humility, Collective Blessing (gotta love time stamps), Lingering Souls and combat planeswalker.

Bobman is losing his mind in Christmas land value. Somebody get this man an adult. hes going insane with value!

[Bobmans]

Bobman is losing his mind in Christmas land value. Somebody get this man an adult. hes going insane with value!

Actually i have been there. On both concept's. And it performed pretty good actually.

[Delvis]

There's a very simple answer to this Eldrazi problem, and it's a very old one. This Eldrazi deck has literally no way of interacting with Academy Rector, and they HAVE to swing through on the ground. If -- and it's a big if -- this Eldrazi deck proves to be as worrisome in legacy as it has been in modern, we should revisit the old Rector tech, because they straight up cannot beat it.

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

[Bobmans]

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

Dodging WW is just as much as dodging Swords to Plowshares for that matter.

[Ricardio]

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

We lured him to the thread. now we kill him for there to be one less eldrazi player. GET HIM!

Yes, very valid point so drop all sorcery and cut the 1 thingys. NOW, WE CANT LOSE. /sarcasm

Yes, rector may be too dream world. We must find a different approach. I also suggest we start talking in an alternative language so the eldrazi people cant infiltrate our tier 1 deck. I vote arm farting.

[Arianrhod]

I'm not trying to poo-poo on your idea, but the Eldrazi decks do play Warping Wail. I'm not saying "DOESN'T WORK; DIES TO REMOVAL," I'm just saying they definitely have an out to a Rector. Naturally, you can void their removal by having a sac outlet ready.

Speaking as an Eldrazi player, we play 4 Wails main in my team's build and it basically always stays in. That card is amazing. I won a game off the back of countering a Hymn last night. It's also very good in this matchup, as Veteran Explorer is a pain and Deathrite is Deathrite. There also tend to be good sorcery targets in the fair matches.

So, the problem with Eldrazi is that nobody has crystalized a list yet. Your team's list plays 4 Wails main? Cool. I've seen a lot of lists that don't play any, or that play 2 copies. I suppose a more accurate way of phrasing my original assertion is that some Eldrazi pilots (and/or specific hands, because it's a MUD variant and plays no card advantage or filtering) will not have any means of favorably interacting with Rector.

Also, as you noted, it's not like you don't have an overabundance of targets for Wail in the matchup. As a deck, Nic Fit is used to the idea that Swords to Plowshares exists, is annoying, and has to be overloaded. If we present enough things that are MUST SWORDS, eventually the blue decks run out of them. The same principle applies here.

I'm merely suggesting it as a possible avenue that's worth considering. We played it in the past, we know it works, and we know it would be effective in the matchup. At this point, I remain unconvinced that the Eldrazi deck is even good enough to hold a significant market share in the legacy metagame. It'll be around, I'm sure, but I'm skeptical that we need to worry about it as being a popular, tier 1 deck.

As I've said before about other decks: we are the boogeymen. We are the thing that goes bump in the night. We do NOT sideboard or aggressively change our deck for other boogeymen. If Eldrazi proves itself popular enough to have to worry about playing it twice an event, then we can talk.

edit: I suppose I should clarify that I don't play on modo, and I'm referring only to paper here. I know Eldrazi is supposedly taking up a large % on modo, but I think that's more of a reaction to people who were able to buy cards to play the deck in all formats. I know that if I were to get into modo, that would be a good strategy. I certainly do not want to re-buy my collection, and if I had the ability to buy 1 deck and play it in 4 formats with minor changes, that would be pretty attractive.

[Bobmans]

We lured him to the thread. now we kill him for there to be one less eldrazi player. GET HIM!

Yes, very valid point so drop all sorcery and cut the 1 thingys. NOW, WE CANT LOSE. /sarcasm

Yes, rector may be too dream world. We must find a different approach. I also suggest we start talking in an alternative language so the eldrazi people cant infiltrate our tier 1 deck. I vote arm farting.
Hehe,

Everything to make their life miserable. The folowing about Eldrazi players missing their TKS LTB trigger.




Make it clear that you're past the point where the trigger could resolve by doing something that could only be done if the trigger didn't exist (playing something, verbally moving to next phase/step) and then call a judge when your opponent doesn't say anything. Your opponent will get a warning every time and you'll get the draw trigger resolved immediately.

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/ipg2-1/

[Sarda'z]

4ts 3surgical? That's some pretty intensive hate right there. Have you ever considered a 2/2 split between Ts and duress? Because that's what I'd do, 4ts is a lot of life loss

I've already considered 3 TS / 1 Duress split. Thing is when I board in discard I really want it in my initial hand, so I can potencially go T1: TS, T2: Therapy #1 (sure hit), Vet, sac, Therapy #2 (hit again) T3: Rhino time!
Having Duress instead against S&T isn't the same thing...



Welcome to the thread and the Source. Glad to have more NicFitter's.

List looks pretty streamlined. Not much to add other then 2 small things. Sooner i would play Liliana of the Veil in the board then i would play Fleshbag Marauder. The -2 effect of Liliana is mostly better. Teabagging your own Veteran Explorer might not come up often enough, sacrificing it for itself makes even Diabolic Edict a better card (instant). But Liliana sticks arround, put's pressure on your opponents hand. And if it catches removal then at least it was a 2 for 1 (card advantage).
The other thing is 3 Forests, 7 Basics. This will compliment recurring Veteran Explorer most and makes it more easy to cast and flip Nissa in the same turn while you can support your entire deck with all basics (screw you Wasteland/Loam/Blood Moon)..

Thank you!
1 - Marauder over Lili is so that it can ETB from S&T or be exhumed against reanimator. I'd take lili to my bed though ;)
2 - I used to play 8 fetches with 8 basics, but then switched to 9 fetches, 6 basics and the solo taiga for SG. I agree with the Nissa point, so maybe I'm cutting the 9th fetch or the 2nd bayou for the 3rd basic forest.


On another topic: I was running a single Titania over the 4th Rhino and she really impressed me. Anyone else?

[Ricardio]

I've already considered 3 TS / 1 Duress split. Thing is when I board in discard I really want it in my initial hand, so I can potencially go T1: TS, T2: Therapy #1 (sure hit), Vet, sac, Therapy #2 (hit again) T3: Rhino time!
Having Duress instead against S&T isn't the same thing...




Thank you!
1 - Marauder over Lili is so that it can ETB from S&T or be exhumed against reanimator. I'd take lili to my bed though ;)
2 - I used to play 8 fetches with 8 basics, but then switched to 9 fetches, 6 basics and the solo taiga for SG. I agree with the Nissa point, so maybe I'm cutting the 9th fetch or the 2nd bayou for the 3rd basic forest.


On another topic: I was running a single Titania over the 4th Rhino and she really impressed me. Anyone else?

yeah, I should swap 3 duress in the board for seize, been lazy to put more cred on mtgo(I own like 12 seize irl for some reason)
Marauder seems to be super meta dependant imho. like maybe there is an abundance of snt in your meta but otherwise its a liability bc junk just plays better removal.
I run 6 fetches, 7 basics. 21 lands. blah blah save the cheerleader blah.
I cut nissa, she was cute and sometimes good but she dies to EVERYTHING. Holy vet, she is like that slut that gets more use than the sidewalk in front of walmart.
E-wit is the senpai we need, not deserve, eyeing a cheaper greenwarden one day.

EDIT: 300TH POST! MADNESS?? THIS...IS...SKILLERHINO!

[Bobmans]

Marauder seems to be super meta dependant imho. like maybe there is an abundance of snt in your meta but otherwise its a liability bc junk just plays better removal.
I run 6 fetches, 7 basics. 21 lands. blah blah save the cheerleader blah.
I cut nissa, she was cute and sometimes good but she dies to EVERYTHING.

His point with Fleshbag is solid. Junk has better removal but Marauder does solve Emrakul or Inkwel Leviathan.

[Ricardio]

His point with Fleshbag is solid. Junk has better removal but Marauder does solve Emrakul or Inkwel Leviathan.

I am not saying he is wrong, I just know that in the correct meta, he is probably insane but so is the case with other niche cards.
rhinos outrace inkwell. therefore Rhino > leviathan

[rubblekill]

I cut nissa, she was cute and sometimes good but she dies to EVERYTHING. Holy vet, she is like that slut that gets more use than the sidewalk in front of walmart.

Someone call an ambulance because I'm dying right now

E: to not go offtopic, I have found that the key part in playing nissa is to know when to play her, usually when you are sure to flip her in the very late game. Against non GBx decks she has been pretty decent, I don't know if she's here to stay.

[Ricardio]

Someone call an ambulance because I'm dying right now

E: to not go offtopic, I have found that the key part in playing nissa is to know when to play her, usually when you are sure to flip her in the very late game. Against non GBx decks she has been pretty decent, I don't know if she's here to stay.

Saw you are in Italy, I called Toad and he said Mario is en route in his kart.

Nissa just wasn't good enough in my experiences. I re-configured and I hope to test tonight. Might devolve into rum/coke and LoL. Either way, I win. Work for another 2 hours. *sad face*

[Warden]

...E: to not go offtopic, I have found that the key part in playing nissa is to know when to play her, usually when you are sure to flip her in the very late game. Against non GBx decks she has been pretty decent, I don't know if she's here to stay.

This is actually what convinced me to buy her at my last event. She actually is mad decent most of the time. There is a way to judge her early-game value and sometimes she's just a Wood Elf/Sakura. Other times (especially late game), she's ramp + auto planeswalker, which is really strong.

I LOL'ed at Bobmans. Beyond Christmasland.

Academy is a route I totally forgot. Same for Humility.

@Sigarda 2: If she's even in the set/block, she's gonna suck. I'd love to be wrong. IMO the track record for "solid magic females who get a second version" leads to a decrease in quality. It would be interesting if we get a BGx equivalent to Sigarda (either color/alliance shifted or her long lost sister).

[Ricardio]

League

2-1 reanimator
DRS t2 g2 and g3

2-1 burn
i won the roll and won g1/g3

2-1 burn (scggreen)
same as before but g1 i tripled rhinod him haha

0-2 RW Painter
G1 he had combo and i couldnt interact

g2 i surgicaled servant. he landed jaya and bridge and i drew 5 lands in a row

0-2 G Post
This felt entirely unwinnable.

3-2

[Bobmans]

League

2-1 reanimator
DRS t2 g2 and g3

2-1 burn
i won the roll and won g1/g3

2-1 burn (scggreen)
same as before but g1 i tripled rhinod him haha

0-2 RW Painter
G1 he had combo and i couldnt interact

g2 i surgicaled servant. he landed jaya and bridge and i drew 5 lands in a row

0-2 G Post
This felt entirely unwinnable.

3-2
Reanimate is not that bad a match-up. Probably one of the better combo MU's. DRS shines here indeed.

About RW Painter; i don't have the feeling that it is a bad match-up. Rather (comparable to Elves) it is more to how you deploy removal and have something of a clock.

12Post in any form with Emrakul is probably auto scoop. There is near to nothing we can do to slow there deployment in their manabase and prevent Emrakul from being hardcast.

I'll post a Junk RectorBlessing list later. If you own the cards and looking for something fun and not too serious, this is sweet.

[Echelon]

@Sarda'z: I run a manabase of 10 fetch, 6 basics (2 each), 1 of each dual, 2 Phyrexian Tower and 1 Dryad Arbor.

I've found that in Junk you typically do not need that 7th basic. Sure some extra value with your Explorer is nice, but at that point it won't swing the game around in your favor anymore.

@Bobmans: I love that this deck can do crazy shit like that with just a couple of tweaks.

In general: As for getting free wins vs. anyDelver, Siege Rhino/Sigarda often enough also does the trick. But who gives a fuck about getting free wins vs. anyDelver, it's one of our best MUs anyway. If BS were to give us free wins vs. ANT/TES, it'd be a different story.

[Arianrhod]

@Sarda'z: I run a manabase of 10 fetch, 6 basics (2 each), 1 of each dual, 2 Phyrexian Tower and 1 Dryad Arbor.

I've found that in Junk you typically do not need that 7th basic. Sure some extra value with your Explorer is nice, but at that point it won't swing the game around in your favor anymore.

Generally agree, but there should be a caveat that it depends on what exact list he's running. Most of my lists with Baneslayers or Thunes really like the 7th basic. If you're a more typical build stopping at rhino/sigarda, then sure, 6 is fine.

[Echelon]

I even go as far as running Dromoka in my list. But how often do you really need it..?

Besides, that 7th basic you mention often'll be a Forest. How does that help with your Baneslayers and Thunes..?

[Arianrhod]

I even go as far as running Dromoka in my list. But how often do you really need it..?

Besides, that 7th basic you mention often'll be a Forest. How does that help with your Baneslayers and Thunes..?

Gameplay thing. When you have more 5 drops, you prioritize Veterans much higher. It's not uncommon for me to set off 3 Vets a game when on junk, which is perfect assuming one fetch grabs a basic early to play around Wasteland.

[uncletiggy]

I also find the 7th basic(3rd forest) to be worth while but garruk ph is my combat walker of choice. besides 7 lands being the decks sweet spot to consistently zenith threw pierce.

[Echelon]

Gameplay thing. When you have more 5 drops, you prioritize Veterans much higher. It's not uncommon for me to set off 3 Vets a game when on junk, which is perfect assuming one fetch grabs a basic early to play around Wasteland.

Yeah, so that's still more of a value thing to get the most out of as many Vets as possible. When wanting to drop a non-green 5-drop it doesn't matter whether you have 6 or 7 basics out. You have 5 + Daze mana either way. You don't want to know how often I fetch up 3+ basics b/c of Wasteland. The important thing it that you get to the point where you have those 6 basics out, the how doesn't really matter. Neither does having that 7th basic - it does nothing to kill your opponent nor does it enable anything new.

Edit: Garruk is a fine reason to run that 7th basic. As for 7 mana - if you really need it that badly, sandbag a fetch, fetch a dual to get to that 7 mana for a turn and shrug your shoulders after it gets blown up. It's still mission accomplished.

[sdematt]

Yeah, so that's still more of a value thing to get the most out of as many Vets as possible. When wanting to drop a non-green 5-drop it doesn't matter whether you have 6 or 7 basics out. You have 5 + Daze mana either way. You don't want to know how often I fetch up 3+ basics b/c of Wasteland. The important thing it that you get to the point where you have those 6 basics out, the how doesn't really matter. Neither does having that 7th basic - it does nothing to kill your opponent nor does it enable anything new.

Edit: Garruk is fine reason to run that 7th basic. As for 7 mana - if you really need it that badly, sandbag a fetch, fetch a dual to get to that 7 mana for a turn and shrug your shoulders after it gets blown up. It's still mission accomplished.

I run 7 since I have the 7 summer basics that I need, so....

[Bobmans]

I run 7 since I have the 7 summer basics that I need, so....
Do you have summer duals to match those?

[Echelon]

I run 7 since I have the 7 summer basics that I need, so....

We all have our own problems to deal with, I suppose. Can't have that 300 dollar Forest collecting dust, obviously.

[Sarda'z]

Thank you all for replying on the mana issue!
I'm generally running 6 basics, but I always want to have a forest left for the late game nissa plan, so I'll be switching to 7 for the next month (that's not something so easy/fast to test).

[Bobmans]

As promised: Confetti festival

Around one and a half year ago a friend of mine had a baby. A couple of weeks before birth he had decided to celebrate with a couple of Legacy happy party people. Also he wasn't going to join our weekly friends night with legacy for a while in order to support his wife. Around that time i was brewing with Academy Rector and the idea of Collective Blessing and Doubling Season popped up as a gimmick. I build a deck around that idea to play at this party. To give my blessing and for his doubling (increasing) of family. So a festive deck for the special occasion. So that night we had a lot of beer and fun and surprisingly the deck performed pretty decent. (2-1 vs Elves!, 2-1 vs BUG Delver and 1-2 vs D&T).

Mvp was the combination of Humility, Zealous Persecution and token generators.
Personally i liked the deck because there is a huge amount of synergy and tiny interactions that can cause to deck to go fully nuclear. But, one must consider that this deck is build for its entertaining value rather then being competitive. With some focus, testing and tweaking i would even consider bringing this to a competitive environment and YOLO it.

I didn't have record of the sideboard, but i suppose only the Humility and Zealous Persecution are set in stone.

Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Academy Rector
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk

Experimental combo:
1 Spike Feeder
1 Spike Weaver
1 Archangel of Thune

Tutor:
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Enchantments:
1 Doubling Season
1 Collective Blessing
2 Pernicious Deed

Disruption:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy

Token generators:
2 Lingering Souls
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Mana:
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
Must have:
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution

Maybeboard:
SB: 1 Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Curse of Exhaustion
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Aegis of the Gods

[Echelon]

More Rectors, more Intents and some juicy shit! Omni-rakul or something. Or Saproling Burst + Pandemonium.

[Ricardio]

I have always been dreaming of a list like that but I want a painful quandary somewhere. that card is awesome.

[Echelon]

You could always YOLO that shit and just maindeck 4...

[Sarda'z]

LOL
This list makes me want to play Dovescape + Curse of Death's Hold

[Ricardio]

LOL
This list makes me want to play Dovescape + Curse of Death's Hold

Or night of soul's betrayal so no one gets anything! Kill them with manlands :D

[Bobmans]

Or night of soul's betrayal so no one gets anything! Kill them with manlands :D
Humility/Dovescape + Curse of the Death's Hold is better. His creatures die, while yours live.

[Ricardio]

Humility/Dovescape + Curse of the Death's Hold is better. His creatures die, while yours live.

at that point are we still playing to win? why not NoSB? no one does anything.

[Bobmans]

at that point are we still playing to win?

Well, that is the challenge. Make it win!

[Ralf]

"Revenge is a dish best savoured cold."

You gave me some ideas and after some testing I think "bolt" is better as "thoughtseize":

Revenge Fit by Ralf

1 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Badlands
4 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Demigod of Revenge

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Slaughter Games


SB is down 3 cards.

Any good idea ?

[Hmmm_Really?]

"Revenge is a dish best savoured cold."

Could you squeeze in a Diabolic Intent, especially if there's already a DemiGod in the gy?

[Ricardio]

"Revenge is a dish best savoured cold."

You gave me some ideas and after some testing I think "bolt" is better as "thoughtseize":

Revenge Fit by Ralf

1 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Badlands
4 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Demigod of Revenge

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Blood Moon
SB: 3 Slaughter Games


SB is down 3 cards.

Any good idea ?

Wish I had Lilies online. No way im dishing out 88 tix each. List looks sweet regardless.

[TLK]

That Demigod list looks so sweet. I'm definitely going to run it if I can find a set of Demigods lying around. Have you tested it at all?

[H]

Playing Demigod certainly would take me back to 2008, playing him in Standard at the time.

I bet you could even get a few people with the trigger now-a-days, with them countering him before letting the trigger resolve.

An interesting line would be to Therapy yourself to discard one (or more), then drawing one with Top and getting both (or all of them).

[Delvis]

So, the problem with Eldrazi is that nobody has crystalized a list yet. Your team's list plays 4 Wails main? Cool. I've seen a lot of lists that don't play any, or that play 2 copies. I suppose a more accurate way of phrasing my original assertion is that some Eldrazi pilots (and/or specific hands, because it's a MUD variant and plays no card advantage or filtering) will not have any means of favorably interacting with Rector.

Right, however, having played 4 WW main I will go ahead and state that it is almost definitely correct, and anyone not playing 4 is not playing an optimal list. Any player who has done significant testing will be playing a list with lots of Warping Wails. We have tinkered around with different things but 4x WW is as constant as 4x Eldrazi Temple and 4x Chalice. This is to say that I believe the list that eventually crystallizes (as you put it) will be playing them - and the lists that aren't are not optimized.

[I'm snipping the rest of your post as I either agree with it or have no opinion.]


Everything to make their life miserable. The folowing about Eldrazi players missing their TKS LTB trigger.

I agree with doing this, not because I think Eldrazi players are scum (rather, I know we are :wink:), but because if your opponent misses his TKS trigger he's a bad player and deserves to get the warning. Or he's true scum and is trying to scum you out of a card.

[bruizar]

"Revenge is a dish best savoured cold."

List looks insane. Props.

[Ricardio]

League

2-1 Jund Depths
path and karakas did serious work

2-0 Infect
g1 2 decay, 2 pte, 1 deed. everything dead
g2 he mull to 3 and i stall on black. he goes for 9 infect. i stabilize

1-2 ANT
G1 he t2s me otp
g2 I surgical IT and he concedes
g3 he has prob-therapy for my 2 duress

1-2 Grixis Delver louisbach (asshole)
g1 triple YP draw and spells with no deed in sight
g2 delver is sht and i win
g3 i draw 18 of my 21 lands. he flames like all delver player.

2-1 Dredge
g1 m5(3 lands, deed, vet) he has therapy for deed. infinte zombies later, we dead
g2 i land scooz on empty board and win
g3 i therapy, vet, gsz for scooz, rhino and we win

Another 3-2 league. *sigh* these are so close. Been running a null rod in the board but havent seen it. seems good against decks here and there. I feel like i should never lose to delver.
I will look over the list and revamp it.
the list
http://imgur.com/5NOgZ3f
right click and open in new tab (idk what i did)

[Bobmans]

League

2-1 Jund Depths
path and karakas did serious work

2-0 Infect
g1 2 decay, 2 pte, 1 deed. everything dead
g2 he mull to 3 and i stall on black. he goes for 9 infect. i stabilize

1-2 ANT
G1 he t2s me otp
g2 I surgical IT and he concedes
g3 he has prob-therapy for my 2 duress

1-2 Grixis Delver louisbach (asshole)
g1 triple YP draw and spells with no deed in sight
g2 delver is sht and i win
g3 i draw 18 of my 21 lands. he flames like all delver player.

2-1 Dredge
g1 m5(3 lands, deed, vet) he has therapy for deed. infinte zombies later, we dead
g2 i land scooz on empty board and win
g3 i therapy, vet, gsz for scooz, rhino and we win

Another 3-2 league. *sigh* these are so close. Been running a null rod in the board but havent seen it. seems good against decks here and there. I feel like i should never lose to delver.
I will look over the list and revamp it.
the list
http://imgur.com/5NOgZ3f
right click and open in new tab (idk what i did)

Though luck. At least you get to play every day.
Why was the Grixis player an ahole? Lol.

How did the Thragtusk and DLD perform?

[rubblekill]

Check the SOI thread. What if we are getting a BG/WB Sigarda? From the last card leaked it seems like the angels have become the bad guys. If that's true it's a cool theme

[Bobmans]

Check the SOI thread. What if we are getting a BG/WB Sigarda? From the last card leaked it seems like the angels have become the bad guys. If that's true it's a cool theme
A BG Sigarda turned over to the dark side. But i hope that it is a different Legendary so we don't have to choose.

[Ralf]

Could you squeeze in a Diabolic Intent, especially if there's already a DemiGod in the gy?

You could even sac your demigod in play to get another one.

But still, this is far too cute. The list does not contain enough creatures to constantly fire a Diabolic Intent.



That Demigod list looks so sweet. I'm definitely going to run it if I can find a set of Demigods lying around. Have you tested it at all?

Yes, it has been tested (like every list I post here).
Nevertheless, I'm missing 3 cards SB right now as this can offer a 3 meta slot for anyone.



Playing Demigod certainly would take me back to 2008, playing him in Standard at the time.

I bet you could even get a few people with the trigger now-a-days, with them countering him before letting the trigger resolve.

An interesting line would be to Therapy yourself to discard one (or more), then drawing one with Top and getting both (or all of them).

It is even better with Liliana +1.
I doubt you'll ever catch anyone "before" resolving the trigger but IF that happens...oh boy...!


@Thread:

As a reminder, this list is a "control" list.
Obviously, you'll get some of those very agressive hands but this is rather the exception than the rule.

For those who will play it, share your thoughts afterwards.
There is room for improvement here, and I'm not going to deny it (mostly SB wise).

Nevertheless, I find the list pretty well balanced right now.

Happy testing !

[Jain_Mor]

A BG Sigarda turned over to the dark side. But i hope that it is a different Legendary so we don't have to choose.

Not sure what you mean, we can play both sigarda in play at the same time if they are different :) which would be sweeeett. Love black Angels.

[Bobmans]

Not sure what you mean, we can play both sigarda in play at the same time if they are different :) which would be sweeeett. Love black Angels.
Well you can't have both versions of Akroma in play at the same time right?

[Ralf]

I will look over the list and revamp it.
the list
http://imgur.com/5NOgZ3f
right click and open in new tab (idk what i did)

Hello Sir,

Here are some food for thoughts:

1) 21 or 22 lands

When I'm playing 21 lands in Nic Fit, I'm stretching the manabase like there will be no tomorrow.
Mathematically speaking, this means you can't reasonably play 2 utility lands in here.

When I'm looking at your list, I count 14 G 11 W 11 B.
This is asking for trouble.

Here is the configuration I would prone (Karakas > PT)

14 G 14 B 14 W 21 lands

1 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Karakas

This gives you everything you would need for casting T1 any G/B/W spell (veteran/cabal/PTE).
Also, you definitely want a T1 fetch -> forest against any unknown opp, opening you up for a T2 Scrub.
I believe this gives you the best operating system since you would be able to cast everything you need with just forest+scrub (at least all CMC<=2 spells).


2) Thragtusk

I feel you have too many high CMC bombs.
When one is playing 4 rhino, I truly believe that Tusk is not needed. This is even more true when you have access to DLD.

This gives you another creature slot.

I'm aware that Painful Truth can sometimes push you very low (lifepoints wise) and you'll have to assess what you better like in the following as I would either play:

+1 DRS
or
+1 Knight of the Reliquary

- DRS will further fix your potential life issue + mana issue. It is also the best PW for 1 mana
- KoTR is a huge GSZable beatstick. We might not have ways to abuse it like Maverick but I've grown very fond of this card. It is also another out to huge demons (fetching Karakas), at instant speed. Its ability to further thin the deck should not be overlooked (as the shuffle effect for top).

The only other bigger beatstick is Centaur Vinecrasher. But CMC 4 and no ETB trigger/ability is kind of harsh...


3) Sideboard options

Here is your list with a few comments:

2 Canonist
2 Surgical
3 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge -> Golgari Charm feels like a better SB cards. Regen Gaddock/Canonist can be a matter of life or death
2 Carpet -> I don't like those as we are playing DRS and SLG + useless against non blue deck. Nonbo with Deed.
1 Garruk Relentless -> Sorin, lord of Innistrad is a very strong consideration. Stealing Jace / Demons had happened quite often
2 SLG
1 Gaddock
1 Null Rod -> Interesting but as you have no way to cantrip/tutor, it feels like very random

Here is a revamped sideboard proposal:

1 Canonist
1 Thalia -> Canonist n°2 but better in some other MU. Could be protected with Karakas.
1/2 Surgical -> I believe with 2 DRS + 1 Ooze + 2 SLG + 1 Surgical = enough gravehate
3 Duress (I got your point about digital TS)
1 Golgari Charm -> faster than Toxic in the MU you care. Swiss Army knife against others.
1/2 Aven Mindcensor -> I've learnt to respect Da card, such a beating in so many MU + IT DOES trade with delver.
2 SLG
0/1 Gaddock -> I love the card but redundant/nonbo with SLG
0/1 Dryad Militant -> Faster than Gaddock (CMC 1 or GSZ @2) doesn't block SLG and drastically slow down a few MU
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1/2 Liliana of the Veil (Yes I know 88 Tix...) -> she is just a powerhouse vs combo/control/aggro AND you are playing Painful Truth.


Hope this will give you some ideas...

[Tom4ik]

Legendary creatures do not use the "planeswalker" rule. They use their name. So yes white and red akroma can be in play. Both Glissas can be.

[Ricardio]

Though luck. At least you get to play every day.
Why was the Grixis player an ahole? Lol.

How did the Thragtusk and DLD perform?

I said "well that's most of my lands. too bad I couldn't draw spells." he said "didn't matter, my deck is better," He kept spamming gg and then waited for a while and bolted me for the win. Waste of time, really.


Hello Sir,

Here are some food for thoughts:

1) 21 or 22 lands

When I'm playing 21 lands in Nic Fit, I'm stretching the manabase like there will be no tomorrow.
Mathematically speaking, this means you can't reasonably play 2 utility lands in here.

When I'm looking at your list, I count 14 G 11 W 11 B.
This is asking for trouble.

Here is the configuration I would prone (Karakas > PT)

14 G 14 B 14 W 21 lands

1 Plains
3 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Karakas

This gives you everything you would need for casting T1 any G/B/W spell (veteran/cabal/PTE).
Also, you definitely want a T1 fetch -> forest against any unknown opp, opening you up for a T2 Scrub.
I believe this gives you the best operating system since you would be able to cast everything you need with just forest+scrub (at least all CMC<=2 spells).


2) Thragtusk

I feel you have too many high CMC bombs.
When one is playing 4 rhino, I truly believe that Tusk is not needed. This is even more true when you have access to DLD.

This gives you another creature slot.

I'm aware that Painful Truth can sometimes push you very low (lifepoints wise) and you'll have to assess what you better like in the following as I would either play:

+1 DRS
or
+1 Knight of the Reliquary

- DRS will further fix your potential life issue + mana issue. It is also the best PW for 1 mana
- KoTR is a huge GSZable beatstick. We might not have ways to abuse it like Maverick but I've grown very fond of this card. It is also another out to huge demons (fetching Karakas), at instant speed. Its ability to further thin the deck should not be overlooked (as the shuffle effect for top).

The only other bigger beatstick is Centaur Vinecrasher. But CMC 4 and no ETB trigger/ability is kind of harsh...


3) Sideboard options

Here is your list with a few comments:

2 Canonist
2 Surgical
3 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge -> Golgari Charm feels like a better SB cards. Regen Gaddock/Canonist can be a matter of life or death
2 Carpet -> I don't like those as we are playing DRS and SLG + useless against non blue deck. Nonbo with Deed.
1 Garruk Relentless -> Sorin, lord of Innistrad is a very strong consideration. Stealing Jace / Demons had happened quite often
2 SLG
1 Gaddock
1 Null Rod -> Interesting but as you have no way to cantrip/tutor, it feels like very random

Here is a revamped sideboard proposal:

1 Canonist
1 Thalia -> Canonist n°2 but better in some other MU. Could be protected with Karakas.
1/2 Surgical -> I believe with 2 DRS + 1 Ooze + 2 SLG + 1 Surgical = enough gravehate
3 Duress (I got your point about digital TS)
1 Golgari Charm -> faster than Toxic in the MU you care. Swiss Army knife against others.
1/2 Aven Mindcensor -> I've learnt to respect Da card, such a beating in so many MU + IT DOES trade with delver.
2 SLG
0/1 Gaddock -> I love the card but redundant/nonbo with SLG
0/1 Dryad Militant -> Faster than Gaddock (CMC 1 or GSZ @2) doesn't block SLG and drastically slow down a few MU
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1/2 Liliana of the Veil (Yes I know 88 Tix...) -> she is just a powerhouse vs combo/control/aggro AND you are playing Painful Truth.


Hope this will give you some ideas...

I cut DLD for the second DRS.
I could see cutting tusk.
I finally bought seize so those are in place of duress now.
I can see cutting a bayou for a scrubland but I haven't had mana issues.
I will try sorin over garruk.
Mindcensor with vet is hilarious. Maybe I can find a spot or two, for the lolz.
KotR leans too hard on the gy and decks already bring in some form of hate so I will pass on her.
I will find space for a thalia but militant nonbos with cabal therapy.
Lily just wont happen. I cant justify committing 180 dollars to 2 digital cards. For less, I could finish the 8 post fit list.

thanks for all the input. its a lot to digest.

[rubblekill]

I said "well that's most of my lands. too bad I couldn't draw spells." he said "didn't matter, my deck is better," He kept spamming gg and then waited for a while and bolted me for the win. Waste of time, really.



I cut DLD for the second DRS.
I could see cutting tusk.
I finally bought seize so those are in place of duress now.
I can see cutting a bayou for a scrubland but I haven't had mana issues.
I will try sorin over garruk.
Mindcensor with vet is hilarious. Maybe I can find a spot or two, for the lolz.
KotR leans too hard on the gy and decks already bring in some form of hate so I will pass on her.
I will find space for a thalia but militant nonbos with cabal therapy.
Lily just wont happen. I cant justify committing 180 dollars to 2 digital cards. For less, I could finish the 8 post fit list.

thanks for all the input. its a lot to digest.

That player is the worst, I confirm that. One time I had the board clear with a lethal rhino (attacking the following turn): he top decked a bolt ftw and proceeded to spread some bm in chat. The worst part is that I hate losing to delver because it's a good mu, and I hate it even more when they top deck bolt (seemingly) every time.

[Ricardio]

That player is the worst, I confirm that. One time I had the board clear with a lethal rhino (attacking the following turn): he top decked a bolt ftw and proceeded to spread some bm in chat. The worst part is that I hate losing to delver because it's a good mu, and I hate it even more when they top deck bolt (seemingly) every time.

I can do without the Keyboard Warriors on mtgo. I am in the process of shipping a stack of unneeded foils irl which will be repurposed to mtgo. chances are, I will finish the post deck be it looks super entertaining.

[Bobmans]

I can do without the Keyboard Warriors on mtgo. I am in the process of shipping a stack of unneeded foils irl which will be repurposed to mtgo. chances are, I will finish the post deck be it looks super entertaining.
Have you tried playing it?

Keyboard Warriors, lol. Good one.

[Ricardio]

Have you tried playing it?

Keyboard Warriors, lol. Good one.

No, I have not but Fatal seems to be confident and anything that jams 4 Prime time is worth playing.
All the cards are things I should have, personally. I'm learning I gravitate to big creatures and removal, or so my friends tell me.

Haha yes, Basement dwelling, butt-monkeys

[Bobmans]

No, I have not but Fatal seems to be confident and anything that jams 4 Prime time is worth playing.
All the cards are things I should have, personally. I'm learning I gravitate to big creatures and removal, or so my friends tell me.

Haha yes, Basement dwelling, butt-monkeys
The deck has something for sure, but you should feel comfortable playing it aswell. Over the years i have spend soo much on MtG. One new deck a week, i ended up with so many avaliable archetypes that my head started spinning figuring out what to play. I sold of a very large portion of my collection kept NicFit, BUG and MUD. Now i have been hoarding again and i am back again to that point. Need to prep for a larfe tournament, but i keep circlejerking to what to play. It is a trap, aaargh.

Morale of the story, it might be wise to take the deck for a spin with proxies or on xmage something something. Or end up like me with an empty bankaccount and a headache.

[Ricardio]

The deck has something for sure, but you should feel comfortable playing it aswell. Over the years i have spend soo much on MtG. One new deck a week, i ended up with so many avaliable archetypes that my head started spinning figuring out what to play. I sold of a very large portion of my collection kept NicFit, BUG and MUD. Now i have been hoarding again and i am back again to that point. Need to prep for a larfe tournament, but i keep circlejerking to what to play. It is a trap, aaargh.

Morale of the story, it might be wise to take the deck for a spin with proxies or on xmage something something. Or end up like me with an empty bankaccount and a headache.

I understand and appreciate the sentiment. I hope you can settle soon and get the proper testing in. I am in the same boat for GP Columbus but I have some time.

As for proxing it, I don't imagine its groundbreaking but at some point, I want cloudpost online so might as well work slowly towards it.(I like to impulse buy with mtg, its my poison of choice) I play mtgo for fun and I wholeheartedly enjoy nic fit and I have fun collaborating and contributing with you all. it is truly a pleasure.

[Arianrhod]

My decision process for Cbus is much simpler. I know that I'm playing Veteran Explorers: the only question is which version thereof. Depends somewhat on the meta by then, but I think that right now, Rhino, Post/Eldrazi, and Ultimate are probably the best versions for a wide open field, with Rhino probably being ostensibly the worst, but the best tuned. We've all put so much work into the Rhino version that by and large I'm comfortable saying that it's currently the most well-refined version of the deck. Post is very promising, but very rough around the edges I feel. Ultimate is questionable in the metagame at the moment, but it has the tools to beat basically anything, which isn't a bad place to be for a GP. My attention is still on Posts at this point. Kozilek is such an absurd payoff.

[Ricardio]

My decision process for Cbus is much simpler. I know that I'm playing Veteran Explorers: the only question is which version thereof. Depends somewhat on the meta by then, but I think that right now, Rhino, Post/Eldrazi, and Ultimate are probably the best versions for a wide open field, with Rhino probably being ostensibly the worst, but the best tuned. We've all put so much work into the Rhino version that by and large I'm comfortable saying that it's currently the most well-refined version of the deck. Post is very promising, but very rough around the edges I feel. Ultimate is questionable in the metagame at the moment, but it has the tools to beat basically anything, which isn't a bad place to be for a GP. My attention is still on Posts at this point. Kozilek is such an absurd payoff.

Do you have lists I can look at?
I am leaning towards bug control for the gp. I feel the need to brainstorm, drs and goyf people.
Nic Fit does hold a special place in my heart though and im working on getting pieces here and there to run it irl

[Arianrhod]

Do you have lists I can look at?
I am leaning towards bug control for the gp. I feel the need to brainstorm, drs and goyf people.
Nic Fit does hold a special place in my heart though and im working on getting pieces here and there to run it irl

Sure.

Ultimate

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Notion Thief
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
9 other cards

Ultimate basically combines all of the strengths of all of the other versions -- it has a powerful lategame, it has Brainstorm and Jace, it has Rhinos, and it has Slaughter Games. The problem with the deck is that all of this comes at the cost of being slower than most other versions. You spend more time filtering and setting things up instead of actively clearing the way or dropping bombs. This is an example of a deck that really wishes it had about 3-4 deck slots to play around with.

The sideboard isn't fully listed here because, by the nature of this deck, the board can be tuned to include answers to literally anything. This deck can have a favorable matchup against literally anything, although, due to the limited nature of sideboards, you can obviously only pack in so many cards for so many decks. The 6 cards that are present currently are what I consider to be fairly immutable, or, at least, I wouldn't drop any of them.

Rhinos

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Nether Void
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

This is my latest personal Rhino list. As has been established repeatedly, I'm a little different when it comes to my Rhino lists -- I go a little bigger than everyone else tends to. Baneslayer and Sun Titan have done great work for me since I started playing Nic Fit 4? 5? years ago. I especially like them in the face of this Eldrazi deck coming around -- both of them can do incredibly naughty things to that deck. I won't say much about this -- you also know your Rhinos and have you own opinions on the deck.

I'll try to post my latest Post list here in a little bit. I don't have it typed up, and it's still very much in flux as I test different numbers of things and different configurations. I'm currently up to 2 Primeval Titans and it's unlikely that that will change at this point unless I do something crazy (which I've been entertaining). In straight BG<>, I think that 4 Zenith + 2 Titans is enough. I'll grant that only having one copy was incorrect, but I tried four and found them way too clunky. They pile up too much at 4-of, so without something like splashing blue for Show and Tell, it's just not really going to work in the long run.

[Navsi]

I still lean towards Scape and similar builds. In my opinion the combo finish is invaluable, not just because it gives you inevitability but the fact that you can steal wins you have no right getting (12 post, combo decks in general) a and it ends games fast on occasion - one of the problems I had playing "fair" lists is that you tend not to have much time between rounds which can burn you out in a long event.

IMO combo lists are the best lists to "run hot" with, which you're going to have to do anyway if you're going to do well at a large event, so may as well as a deck that capitalises on its good draws as hard as possible.

[Arianrhod]

I still lean towards Scape and similar builds. In my opinion the combo finish is invaluable, not just because it gives you inevitability but the fact that you can steal wins you have no right getting (12 post, combo decks in general) a and it ends games fast on occasion - one of the problems I had playing "fair" lists is that you tend not to have much time between rounds which can burn you out in a long event.

IMO combo lists are the best lists to "run hot" with, which you're going to have to do anyway if you're going to do well at a large event, so may as well as a deck that capitalises on its good draws as hard as possible.

In no way do I disagree that combo finishes are important to a deck like Nic Fit. Midrange decks with combo finishes tend to be my sweet spot -- they're very rare, but they're unilaterally my favorite archetype when they do appear. That being said, I do have tow specific issues with Scape:

1: I personally stopped having fun with it. In no way is this a reflection on the deck itself. I still endorse it as being a good deck. For a while, it was uncontestedly the best version of Nic Fit, imo. But I grew tired of it. This is in large part due to:

2: As the deck has aged, its creature plan has become awful to the verge of embarrassing. There was a time in the format where Scape had a legit plan B, in the form of its creature beatdown. Huntmaster and Thragtusk were both nearly uncontested on the battlefield, and as a result you had this wonderful hybrid that could be control, aggro, or combo on any given turn depending on boardstate. The creature side of the deck hasn't aged well, however, and now the deck is basically forced down this linear combo path with the control elements serving only to make sure the deck doesn't die before it hits 7 lands.

As I said, this still works. It's still good. It's just not where I personally want to be.

Edit: It's also one of the reasons why I've been so hellbent on this Post idea. It feels very reminiscent of Scapewish, but it's actually enjoyable for me to play.

[Ricardio]

Have you checked out the thread? im in the middle of building and testing on mtgo so hopefully I can contribute. would you say its close enough to be absorbed by nic fit or still a different deck altogether?

[Arianrhod]

Have you checked out the thread? im in the middle of building and testing on mtgo so hopefully I can contribute. would you say its close enough to be absorbed by nic fit or still a different deck altogether?

I haven't -- I assumed any discussion would be happening here. I definitely think that it's part of the Nic Fit archetype overall still, and I've been very vocal about wanting to keep the family together, so to speak. I'll check the thread out here in a bit when I get some more time.

[Ricardio]

I haven't -- I assumed any discussion would be happening here. I definitely think that it's part of the Nic Fit archetype overall still, and I've been very vocal about wanting to keep the family together, so to speak. I'll check the thread out here in a bit when I get some more time.

Make time for the FIT BRUH. It looks promising. Fatal's idea is good, I just want to mold it to what I like to do. oh baby.

[helvetios]

Hey guys!

I played in a small Legacy Tournament today at a store in my area and ended up first place! It was so much fun to watch the reactions of the people, when they first saw the rhinos stomping on the field! :cool:
There were only eleven people there, so it was only four rounds.
This was the list:


1 Dryad arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of clan nel toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of herons
1 Thragtusk

2 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Path to exile
3 Abrupt decay

4 Green sun's zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful truths

4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains


SB:
3 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of flowers
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Pithing needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hallowed moonlight
1 Choke

First match: Jund: 0:2
G1: We both flood out terribly, but he has a liliana on the field, and i only draw nearly every land in the deck... Oh, well...
G2: He gets out liliana, the turn after i land Sigarda. instead of attacking him to the face right away, i waste a turn attacking liliana. two deathrites finish me, while he is on 4 life (the wasted attack from sigarda). I don't know what i was thinking there...

Second match: Bye

Third match: TES: 2:0 (yeah, i know, awesome! :laugh:)
G1: I have turn one deathrite shaman, and he seems to have a slow hand. he lets me get to turn four, where i draw a zenith and get gaddock teeg with it, which he needs to find an answer for. but before he finds one, he dies to gaddock and rhino beatdown.
G2: Turn one Therapy, turn two therapy, turn three surgical. i don't really get any pressure going, but draw more and more discard, which slows him down, and i draw zenith, and gaddock beats him down again (deathrite dealing the last two damage, since he burning wished for that horrendous black card that kills all green creatures :cry:)

Fourth match: Sliver-something (don't know the deck, looked weird, but fun) 2:0
G1: He begins, drops Black vise, i take 3 in my upkeep. i can only play a land. he drops another vise, i take 4 on my upkeep. after that i keep my hand low and stabilize with ooze and a rhino. he plays some slivers, but thats not enough in the face of pernicious deed and our holy Rhino.
G2: He has a threat-light hand, and i strip everything with therapy, veteran, therapy. he manages to daze thragtusk (didn't know that he played that card), but after that a zenith for rhino and a little bit of backup removal seals the deal.



Overall the tournament was a bit awkward, but i had so much fun! For the first testrun with nic-fit in a real tournament, i was very happy. The build seems to have good game versus an open meta and is a blast to play! I didn't feel that a single card underperformed, so I'll keep going with this list. maybe I'll cut one deathrite shaman for a third top or something like that.

Even pulled a Polluted delta from my five prize-boosters, so I'll call it a successful day :laugh:

Cheers!

[sdematt]

Hey guys!

I played in a small Legacy Tournament today at a store in my area and ended up first place! It was so much fun to watch the reactions of the people, when they first saw the rhinos stomping on the field! :cool:
There were only eleven people there, so it was only four rounds.
This was the list:


1 Dryad arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of clan nel toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of herons
1 Thragtusk

2 Sensei's divining top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Path to exile
3 Abrupt decay

4 Green sun's zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful truths

4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains


SB:
3 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of flowers
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Pithing needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hallowed moonlight
1 Choke

First match: Jund: 0:2
G1: We both flood out terribly, but he has a liliana on the field, and i only draw nearly every land in the deck... Oh, well...
G2: He gets out liliana, the turn after i land Sigarda. instead of attacking him to the face right away, i waste a turn attacking liliana. two deathrites finish me, while he is on 4 life (the wasted attack from sigarda). I don't know what i was thinking there...

Second match: Bye

Third match: TES: 2:0 (yeah, i know, awesome! :laugh:)
G1: I have turn one deathrite shaman, and he seems to have a slow hand. he lets me get to turn four, where i draw a zenith and get gaddock teeg with it, which he needs to find an answer for. but before he finds one, he dies to gaddock and rhino beatdown.
G2: Turn one Therapy, turn two therapy, turn three surgical. i don't really get any pressure going, but draw more and more discard, which slows him down, and i draw zenith, and gaddock beats him down again (deathrite dealing the last two damage, since he burning wished for that horrendous black card that kills all green creatures :cry:)

Fourth match: Sliver-something (don't know the deck, looked weird, but fun) 2:0
G1: He begins, drops Black vise, i take 3 in my upkeep. i can only play a land. he drops another vise, i take 4 on my upkeep. after that i keep my hand low and stabilize with ooze and a rhino. he plays some slivers, but thats not enough in the face of pernicious deed and our holy Rhino.
G2: He has a threat-light hand, and i strip everything with therapy, veteran, therapy. he manages to daze thragtusk (didn't know that he played that card), but after that a zenith for rhino and a little bit of backup removal seals the deal.



Overall the tournament was a bit awkward, but i had so much fun! For the first testrun with nic-fit in a real tournament, i was very happy. The build seems to have good game versus an open meta and is a blast to play! I didn't feel that a single card underperformed, so I'll keep going with this list. maybe I'll cut one deathrite shaman for a third top or something like that.

Even pulled a Polluted delta from my five prize-boosters, so I'll call it a successful day :laugh:

Cheers!

Congrats!

I played Jund last night because I said I would. I liked the deck, but man, it's SO much slower and clocking your opponent sans-Rhino is much tougher. I'm back on Junk, but I'm willing to help tune lists.

[Bobmans]

I just got back from a 4R event and finished 2-1-1. It was a good opportunity to test Rhino's Abbondanza (signature list) in preparation for MKM Frankfurt. I am to tired to go into detail and am not going to respond to the earlier posts this night.

2-0 Dredge
0-2 Miracles
1-1-1 UWr Stoneblade
2-0 Elves

Quick conclusion. I feel i was lacking more control. Especially against Miracles it felt really hard to got back from a developed board. 4 Siege Rhino's weren't really helpful and only where able to create a false perspective of putting up pressure. Perhaps it has to do more with how i play the deck.
Deed, Thragtusk, Painful Truth's, SDT, Nissa and Sigarda where awesome. Deed being relevant in every game. Scooze won Dredge. Having 4 PtE still feels the right way.
Courser, Meren, Dryad Arbor and Rhino where mediocre. DRS helped in the Dredge MU, but where also mediocre in the other MU's.
Maybe this had to do with the MU's i played, but i really did wish i was playing the SFM build i posted a couple of pages back. Also i felt i wanted to play JundFit instead (i agree with Matt that JundFit is so much slower). Being stuck in a vicious circle and have a hard time breaking out.
Still i haven't decided if i want to bring NicFit to MKM Frankfurt. Anyhow, time to crashland into dreamworld and give it some more thought tomorrow. To the very least i got a OGW booster for the trouble.

[Arianrhod]

Something that I think sometimes gets overlooked is something that I remember I fought tooth and claw with Bruizar over a couple years ago, and why there is a quote by Nietzsche in the primer. Every single person who plays this deck has a different playstyle. They think in different, unique ways. They prefer to name different things with Therapy. They like different sideboard cards, sideboard plans. Etc, etc.

There exist people who believe that there is a "correct" decklist for every deck. I am not one of those people. At best, there is a correct decklist for every person. If you feel that you would be better served with a Stoneforge list, Bobmans, fucking go for it. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, and don't kowtow to pressure from friends virtual or physical. One issue with our community, as wondrous as it is, that we sometimes face is that since many people favor different versions of Nic Fit, sometimes we can feel drowned out or influenced to switch to a version that lots of people are reporting success with.

Don't. Go with what works for you, what you enjoy.

[Arianrhod]

@Ricardio:

Post

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Fierce Empath
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge

1 Skeletal Scrying

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
1 Llanowar Wastes

//sb
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Trinisphere
2 Warping Wail
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Nether Void
2 Krosan Grip

I'm going to be making changes to this, I would hardly consider it a final list, a polished list, or anything of the sort. It's just what I've been experimenting with lately.

Some thoughts on some of the card choices:

Kozilek, TGD is still the reason to run this deck. He is the scapeshift. He is the one card combo. Sometimes he draws fewer cards than BOT, but his counter-control gives the deck an angle of attack that it's never really had before, and he ends the game when he comes down.

I tried a value-creature based approach with this build, using Solemns and Meren to compliment the Reshapers. The Solemns were added due to the addition of the 8th post, as I inferred the presence of more colorless hands, and Solemns can color fix in an emergency. Meren followed from there -- I wasn't happy with the fact that I had literally no graveyard interaction, and Meren re-buying Reshapers and Solemns seemed sweet. I have to report, though, that this approach didn't really work. The deck felt clunkier than it did previously by a fair amount and had a lot of awful draws the last time I played it -- even more than typical "brainstorm tax" hands.

For the sideboard's part, Trinisphere vastly overperformed. I don't think that I want a 3rd copy, with Nether Void currently filling that role admirably (Void + Trinisphere out is a hard-lock for almost every combo deck). I don't think that other builds of Nic Fit can afford to run it, unfortunately -- the card's strength comes from being dropped on turn 2, and the Post build has a LOT of ways of accomplishing that. Most builds can only go Vet+Therapy into 3ball, but we also gain Cloudpost+Glimmer as a valid line. 3balls and Thought-Knot Seers is definitely a very powerful plan against combo.

Ulamog might be worse than Emrakul now that the 8th post is in the deck. With only 3 Clouds, I don't think the deck could support Emrakul cleanly enough. With the full 4 (and a 2nd Primeval Titan), though, I think that Emrakul is back on the menu. Ulamog just frequently doesn't feel big enough -- it's nice that it's "removal," but it doesn't end the game, and every now and then you need the nuclear option.

I think that what I expect from this deck is the ability to execute the following gameplan: ramp+discard -> sweepers + midrange threats -> primeval -> spaghetti. I'll rebuild the deck a bit and see if I can find a better configuration that will allow for that plan.

I almost want to try to splash U for Show and Tell, to steal a bit more of 12post's tech. Show and Telling a Primeval Titan has always been my favorite part of that deck, and being able to S&T Kozilek opens the door to a very valid anti-combo plan. Even without drawing cards, Kozilek is a fast clock and offers a lot of disruption to anyone who wants to go off. I don't really know how I would be able to reconcile all of this, however. Reshaper and TKS are almost assuredly gone if I were to add blue, which makes the midrange/midgame plan much worse, because both of those cards are nuts. I guess you do get Coiling Oracle at that point, which might be worth looking into. It's also possible I need to go deeper into the Eldrazi shell -- more Thought-Knots, maybe try out some Smashers. Kind of the Scapewish answer of "deal with my bullshit creatures while I build up something you're really, really not going to like in the background."

[jbone2016]

Well. I have a list, 61
Cards of course. Including 3 main deck hate cards vs discard (either lily or smasher). Some very spicy ones in the sideboard. Only 10 different cards in there this time.

[Echelon]

Hey guys!

...

List

...

Overall the tournament was a bit awkward, but i had so much fun! For the first testrun with nic-fit in a real tournament, i was very happy. The build seems to have good game versus an open meta and is a blast to play! I didn't feel that a single card underperformed, so I'll keep going with this list. maybe I'll cut one deathrite shaman for a third top or something like that.

...

Nice list. Very speedy! Cutting a DRS should be fine.

@Arianrhod: The manabase of that colorless list looks so tricky! I understand you mainly focus on hitting as many initial green sources as you can, but you're still at such a low number!

[Arianrhod]

Well. I have a list, 61
Cards of course. Including 3 main deck hate cards vs discard (either lily or smasher). Some very spicy ones in the sideboard. Only 10 different cards in there this time.

Good luck! Will you be round-by-rounding, either here or on facebook?

[Frenchywox]

Hello guys and sorry for my english!

I am an oldtime legacy and nicfit player, following this thread, considering the quality of discussions, so congrats for the work!

I play actually a rector version in my meta with some adaptations and want feedbacks, so this is my current build :

[ T 1.5 ] - Rector Junk Fit :
http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/decks/showdeck?ref=440384&decklanglocal=eng

24 lands

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Stirring Wildwood : vs delver and under humility is good.
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

With 2 crop rotation, dark depths package is playable and 1 of my kill.

11 creatures

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons : well Mvp
3 Academy Rector
4 Veteran Explorer

26 others spells

Enchant package : 10
3 Sylvan Library : 35% of my meta play CotV turn 1, so top in hand...Damn!
1 Bitterblossom

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Banishing Light

1 Humility
1 Leyline of Sanctity : MD take first game vs ANT and Burn is pretty

1 Primeval Bounty : make coffee everyday, life gain with crop and veteran is amazing
1 Eldrazi Conscription : so you play «el»drazi*? I play «el»Dryad*!

Other : 16
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad : vs control and token generator under humility
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Innocent Blood
2 Crop Rotation
2 Living Wish : i love toolbox
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

Side

1 Choke
1 Nevermore
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Eye of Singularity : vs 12post, it's fun to watch your opponent reading the card before his 3 cloudpost and 2 trop island going to the cim. Good choice vs token (mentor or YPyro).
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction

LW package :
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Orzhov Pontiff


As you see, only Sigarda is not be able to "kill" under humility, who is of course the key card of my deck.

Generally, Eldrazi Conscription and Dryad Arbor Vs Eldrazi aggro make my day, everyday!
And this build have a favorable match up Vs Eldrazi cancer.

I think 11 ways to sacrifice vet or rector is the good number (4CT, 1 PTower with 2 crop MD, 2 IBood, 2 LWish with PTower).

I know the 3 sylvan library can be 3 SDTop, but with my current meta, i prefer to keep my draw/filtering engine safe vs CotV turn 1, and i only play 1 Deed so...

Of course :
- No MOAR rhino!
- 61 cards = what else?

Thanks for watching :wink:

[Bobmans]

1 Stirring Wildwood : under humility is good.
Thanks for watching :wink:

JUDGE! :-D What is going to happen in this scenario?

I really like your idea's. I only doubt that this type of list lacks velocity and can have awkward draws/openers. Looks really fun to play, but:
Obviously Humility is the (no THE) MVP tech in this deck. A LOT of decks fold to a resolved Humility. Granted, the synergy Humility begs for are more combat walkers/Lingering Souls coupled with Zealous Persecution. Not saying you should do that, but rather confirming that this actually works.



there is a quote by Nietzsche in the primer.

Sometimes i forget, thanks for pointing that out. I really wanted to believe that the mainstream list was THE list for me.

[Frenchywox]

JUDGE! :-D What is going to happen in this scenario?

3/4 reach for the win obviously!


I really like your idea's. I only doubt that this type of list lacks velocity and can have awkward draws/openers. Looks really fun to play, but:
Obviously Humility is the (no THE) MVP tech in this deck. A LOT of decks fold to a resolved Humility. Granted, the synergy Humility begs for are more combat walkers/Lingering Souls coupled with Zealous Persecution. Not saying you should do that, but rather confirming that this actually works.


Thank you!

I know the version with LSouls and ZPersecution is great but it's not a fast version too.

I try to insert "instant" kill like Eldrazi Conscription (who works under humility) or Marit lage to fight this lack of velocity (english langage or not : i don't know!) and resolve MD Leyline vs combo (game vs ANT, Burn generally) or Primeval Bounty vs aggro deck give you a lot of time and life to control the rest of the game safely (land a fetch, crack it, crop rotate, take a fetchland, crack it... 1 green = 10 life!) :wink:

A turn 4 kill/concede is not so rare with this build.

[jbone2016]

Good luck! Will you be round-by-rounding, either here or on facebook?

Probably on Facebook. Hopefully better then the 0-4 drop at St. Louis

[Weast]

Hello. This is gonna be my first legacy deck that I want to get into. Right now I've been playing Scapewish as I have a lot of the cards for it already (previously played Scapeshift in modern). I'm having a blast and making some tweaks here and there. I decided to play it safe just use the primer version and go from there.


//Artifact (2)
2 Sensei's Divining Top

//Creature (16)
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer

//Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

//Sorcery (15)
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Scapeshift

//Land (24)
3 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
3 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge


Any suggestions would be appreciated. I cut 1 bayou and 1 top because I don't currently own extra of them. However will get them at a later date.

[jbone2016]

Minor update: 2-2. Beat burn, punishing jund then lost to lands and reanimator (Cedric phillips). Big game hunter did kill an Iona

[Bobmans]

Minor update: 2-2. Beat burn, punishing jund then lost to lands and reanimator (Cedric phillips). Big game hunter did kill an Iona

Hehe, sweet tech reminds me of Survival of the Fittest. Anyhow, to bad 2-2. Lands is a b... and Reanimate is a coin toss really.

Keep it going!

[Firepaw3]

Currently 5-1 with scapewish at scg philly, lost round 4 to enchantress beat: miracles dntx2 merfolk and goblin stompy

[Weast]

What is yours scapewish list looking like?

[Ricardio]

KEEP FIGHTING NIC FITTERS AT SCG PHILLY !!! <3


League:

2-1 Gw Post
I aggro'd out game 1
g2 he had reocurring ulamog with karakas lol
g3 i surgical prime time, slaughter emrakul and ugin and then path his last ulamog and he concedes because that is all the threats hahahaha

2-1 colorless eldrazi
g1 i got run over
g2 i got to vindicate his land and then ewit vindicate his second land and he conceded
g3 i got to seize and thereapy him and then land glissa(he said he cant beat it) then i landed sigarda and won.

2-1 Grixis Delver
g1 he had it all and i died to delver/yp and 3 bolts
g2/g3 i resolved vet triggers and won handedly (he kept a weird controlling hand g3 on 7 for whatever reason

2-1 Renimtor w/o daze
g1 he had t2 gbrand
g2/g3 i got drs out and then scooz

2-0 Colorless Eldrazi
g1 I got to therapy and vet him out with meren value infinite
g2 i therapy tks and surgical. then gsz for vet get jitte. same turn another therapy and drs. he accidentally casts endless one for 0 and shame scoops.

FIVE AND 0 BABY

Deck felt super good.
*UPDATED*

[Firepaw3]

What is yours scapewish list looking like?

I'll write the list out and do a report sometime later this week, picked up a loss to sneak but beat storm last round, currently 6-2 going into last round for day1

[Hmmm_Really?]

colorless eldrazi…
g3 i got to seize and thereapy him and then land glissa(he said he cant beat it)...


Why can't he beat it? Glissa still dies to a 4/4 or 5/5, right? Or did you have a recurring engine?

[Ralf]

Why can't he beat it? Glissa still dies to a 4/4 or 5/5, right? Or did you have a recurring engine?

First strike + deathtouch mean it is hard to kill in battle...
It won't die to some vanilla X/X.

[Hmmm_Really?]

First strike + deathtouch mean it is hard to kill in battle...
It won't die to some vanilla X/X.

Just to be clear, we're all agreed that Glissa dies to a TKS or a Reality Smasher or any vanilla 4/4, yes?

[Weast]

I'll write the list out and do a report sometime later this week, picked up a loss to sneak but beat storm last round, currently 6-2 going into last round for day1

I'd like to read that. I'm trying to get the most information I can for this deck.

[TTX]

Just to be clear, we're all agreed that Glissa dies to a TKS or a Reality Smasher or any vanilla 4/4, yes?

Really?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sdematt]

Really?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So just in case, since I know I missed it the first time, it has both Deathtouch and First Strike. What this means is that unless the other creature has first strike, Glissa will do first strike damage, and if it does, assuming no protection, Deathtouch will kick in and kill that creature before it can swing back on regular damage. It literally wins every battle, sans flying, horsemanship, another bigger first striker, or pro black/green.

I need to start rigorously testing against Miracles in case I end up going to Prague in June.

-Matt

[Hmmm_Really?]

I stand corrected...

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/288744-creatures-with-death-touch-and-first-strike
(http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/288744-creatures-with-death-touch-and-first-strike)

[Ricardio]

I stand corrected...

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/288744-creatures-with-death-touch-and-first-strike
(http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/288744-creatures-with-death-touch-and-first-strike)

Bold accusations and then linking a correction from mtgsalvation. First time here?

[Arianrhod]

Bold accusations and then linking a correction from mtgsalvation. First time here?

I laughed. Be gentle.

[Echelon]

Lol @ above. Also, first strike and deathtouch is kiddy stuff. Come on, you should know this!



2-1 colorless eldrazi
...
g3 i got to seize and thereapy him and then land glissa(he said he cant beat it) then i landed sigarda and won.


Told you so. You're welcome!

That's it, I'm picking one up at the next monthly. No ugly ass GP Spiritmonger for me!

Also, I'm planning to look at the GBC manabase, I want to see if I can at least get it to 14 initial green sources. If that's the case, I may start building it too. Seems too good a possibility to do funny stuff with Fierce Empath into a random fatty to not at least try it.

Edit: Here's what I've come up with, taking Arianrhods manabase as a starting point:
4 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Waste
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Bayou
3 Llanowar Wastes

This gets you up to 14 green and 13 black. I was inclined to cut Eye of Ugin but if you can tutor for that it holds a lot of value when moving towards a kill. If you can't I'd drop it for a second Swamp.

4 basics is a very small number, but choices, choices man.

Edit 2: The following thought just occured to me: Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds both can fetch Wastes. Consider the following manabase:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin

It puts you a turn behind your opponent (looking at it objectively mostly only a problem on the draw) but does provide you with a perfectly stable manabase without needing any duals whatsoever.

The ETB tapped sucks (hence the 4 Llanowar Wastes), but perhaps this is a solution as well.

[Bobmans]

So just in case, since I know I missed it the first time, it has both Deathtouch and First Strike. What this means is that unless the other creature has first strike, Glissa will do first strike damage, and if it does, assuming no protection, Deathtouch will kick in and kill that creature before it can swing back on regular damage. It literally wins every battle, sans flying, horsemanship, another bigger first striker, or pro black/green.

I need to start rigorously testing against Miracles in case I end up going to Prague in June.

-Matt

What flavor are you planning to play?

The combination of First Strike + Deathtouch is so ugly that there are only 2 creatures that have those static ability's while not being conditional. There are other creatures that can have both static ability, but those need some condition to be met first, like activated ability requiring a mana cost or it only has those ability's while attacking. Also there are no Aura's or Equipment's that provide both. None exist with Double Strike rather then First Strike. I find Master of Cruelties rather interesting, but have never actually played with that card.

@ Firepaw, good job so far. How did R9 go?

Yesterday i was toying around with a BUG list running Deadeye Navigator. That was utterly disgusting if you got it with Baleful Strix / Thragtusk.

[Ricardio]

i 5-0'd a league see above.

http://i.imgur.com/QwuiRbL.png

[Arianrhod]

What if any of your card selection decisions were because of MODO availability? I'm guessing none since you've been on there for forever, but I wanted to check.

Otherwise seems fine. Not quite my flavor, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I've been testing vs Eldrazi at home (proxied up a list close to what I expect Delvis's list to be, since his team has put in the most work with the deck at this point). So far it's been a positive matchup overall. There are games we lose, certainly, but by and large the sacrifice to consistency over explosiveness compared to Metalworker MUD seems to allow us to actually play a game.

The more control I've gone (the more removal in the list), the worse the matchup seems to be. They're going to focus on getting a Chalice@1 pretty heavily, so I don't like Path to Exile at all. That being said, when they don't have Chalice, Path is great -- and it's good vs a lot of the rest of the room, so.

I am very much more concerned about the explosive growth of RG Lands as a result of their very favorable Eldrazi matchup. Lands is a serious problem for us and if it's gaining that much popularity, we need to worry about it...especially because of the window for fast combo's re-entry that it allows. Belcher is threatening to be very, very good in the upcoming metagame a couple weeks from now.

[Ricardio]

What if any of your card selection decisions were because of MODO availability? I'm guessing none since you've been on there for forever, but I wanted to check.

Otherwise seems fine. Not quite my flavor, but there's nothing wrong with that.

I've been testing vs Eldrazi at home (proxied up a list close to what I expect Delvis's list to be, since his team has put in the most work with the deck at this point). So far it's been a positive matchup overall. There are games we lose, certainly, but by and large the sacrifice to consistency over explosiveness compared to Metalworker MUD seems to allow us to actually play a game.

The more control I've gone (the more removal in the list), the worse the matchup seems to be. They're going to focus on getting a Chalice@1 pretty heavily, so I don't like Path to Exile at all. That being said, when they don't have Chalice, Path is great -- and it's good vs a lot of the rest of the room, so.

I am very much more concerned about the explosive growth of RG Lands as a result of their very favorable Eldrazi matchup. Lands is a serious problem for us and if it's gaining that much popularity, we need to worry about it...especially because of the window for fast combo's re-entry that it allows. Belcher is threatening to be very, very good in the upcoming metagame a couple weeks from now.

The windswepts over verdant(i havent noticed a difference)
Lotv missing.
That is it for cards i dont play because i dont have them.

[Echelon]

@Ricardio: Nice job on the league. What were your MUs?

[Bobmans]

i 5-0'd a league see above.

Well done.





I've been testing vs Eldrazi at home (proxied up a list close to what I expect Delvis's list to be, since his team has put in the most work with the deck at this point). So far it's been a positive matchup overall. There are games we lose, certainly, but by and large the sacrifice to consistency over explosiveness compared to Metalworker MUD seems to allow us to actually play a game.

The more control I've gone (the more removal in the list), the worse the matchup seems to be. They're going to focus on getting a Chalice@1 pretty heavily, so I don't like Path to Exile at all. That being said, when they don't have Chalice, Path is great -- and it's good vs a lot of the rest of the room, so.

I am very much more concerned about the explosive growth of RG Lands as a result of their very favorable Eldrazi matchup. Lands is a serious problem for us and if it's gaining that much popularity, we need to worry about it...especially because of the window for fast combo's re-entry that it allows. Belcher is threatening to be very, very good in the upcoming metagame a couple weeks from now.

Fast combo is going to be an issue for us, but i am not sure how that is going to develop.

That said, Path to Exile takes in imprtant role in both Lands and Eldrazi MU. Looking at alternative creature removal anything gets more narrow (Dismemeber, Go for the Throat, Diabolic Edict, Terminate, Punishing Fire, just to name a few).
VS the Lands MU our best weapon seems to be Surgical Extraction. Since that cards is already within our "standard" gameplan we might aswell stay close to what we do already.
Plus Path to Exile is obviously an all star vs basically every creature based deck.
So in the end, the Eldrazi MU seems to resolve around hitting Chalice with Therapy/Decay/Deed, take out beef like TKS/Smasher with Path and possible sweep with Deed and finally locking the board with "bigger" or "better" creatures.
In testing i felt like we (junk) have a good game against Eldrazi, but it takes some manouvring to overcome them in time. Siege Rhino in this MU is not bad, but also it can fall short. And lists run 1-3 Dismember.

All in all, i do feel Junk to be good choice yet i am uncomfortable with it and feel that i/we must also look into another direction. In this regard i am more and more drawn to BUG colors to provide more value to the table (recurring Strix for example), while being able to shift to combo-hate game 2/3 (FoW/Surgical Extraction). This are yet just "gut feelings" but i am curious to further see how you or others think towards the direction NicFit might or should go to combat in this shifting meta.

[Echelon]

Junk vs. BUG to me comes down to do you want to focus more on combat or on the combo MU.

Junk is better equiped to handle opposing creatures and combat, BUG is better equiped to handle the combo MU.

It's probably a meta call. BUG's combat capabilities can be improved with a Glissa, the Traitor that can also provide some added value when combined with Strix (which falls in the realm of cute but possible). For the lands MU you could fall back on Submerge to deal with Merit Lage. Try to recur w/ Meren & Eternal Witness for the win.

[helvetios]

i 5-0'd a league see above.

Congrats!
A question to you (and anyone else playing a one-of vindicate/maelstrom pulse): wouldn't it be better to run council's judgement? gets around hexproof, indestructible (marit lage), doesn't target (if i am not misinformed), so takes out reality smashers. it doesn't kill problematic lands, but in the lands-MU, they just get returned with loam anyway. double white could be a bit awkward early game, but i think between verteran/deathrite we should manage to get it consistently? what do you guys think? :smile:

[Bobmans]

Congrats!
A question to you (and anyone else playing a one-of vindicate/maelstrom pulse): wouldn't it be better to run council's judgement? gets around hexproof, indestructible (marit lage), doesn't target (if i am not misinformed), so takes out reality smashers. it doesn't kill problematic lands, but in the lands-MU, they just get returned with loam anyway. double white could be a bit awkward early game, but i think between verteran/deathrite we should manage to get it consistently? what do you guys think? :smile:

Sorcery speed is "never" a solution against Marit Lage. A Lands pilot will always try to create the token at the end of your turn.

[Echelon]

Sorcery speed is "never" a solution against Marit Lage. A Lands pilot will always try to create the token at the end of your turn.

Yup. So always keep that W open to threaten with the PtE (regardless of if you actually have it or not).

[helvetios]

Sorcery speed is "never" a solution against Marit Lage. A Lands pilot will always try to create the token at the end of your turn.

Yeah, you're right. Could council's judgement still be of use in some matchups? Maybe cloudpost when they go for an ulamog? Or is the option to destroy a land more important?

[Echelon]

Yeah, you're right. Could council's judgement still be of use in some matchups? Maybe cloudpost when they go for an ulamog? Or is the option to destroy a land more important?

Same thing. PtE answers Ulamog for 1 mana instead of 3 and at instant speed to boot, so why bother?

[Jain_Mor]

See Ricardio, league is much better :P
Congrats, what were your matchups? Did you fight miracles? What was your sideboard plan?

At the moment my most consistent losses are to my self, and then miracles (though my sample size isnt that big)

[Bobmans]

At the moment my most consistent losses are to my self, and then miracles (though my sample size isnt that big)

Hahaha lol. Nice one.
Anyway, i also found the Miracles Mentor MU disturbingly difficult. Unlike PFire NicFit.

[rubblekill]

Congratz Ricardio, my man. From the 3 s games its clear that you really hate that miracles mu! When do you board in the full 3 copies?

[Warden]

Congrats Ricardio! Very nice streamlined list.
How was 0 tusk for ya?

[Ricardio]

@Ricardio: Nice job on the league. What were your MUs?

They are on the previous page


Well done.

Thanks, man.


Congrats!
A question to you (and anyone else playing a one-of vindicate/maelstrom pulse): wouldn't it be better to run council's judgement? gets around hexproof, indestructible (marit lage), doesn't target (if i am not misinformed), so takes out reality smashers. it doesn't kill problematic lands, but in the lands-MU, they just get returned with loam anyway. double white could be a bit awkward early game, but i think between verteran/deathrite we should manage to get it consistently? what do you guys think? :smile:

Vindicate was absolutely invaluable. Killing lands was impressive along with "flashback" by ewit. 10/10 one of.


Yeah, you're right. Could council's judgement still be of use in some matchups? Maybe cloudpost when they go for an ulamog? Or is the option to destroy a land more important?

Between pte and karakas, you don't need anything else. CJ was poor in my testing.


See Ricardio, league is much better :P
Congrats, what were your matchups? Did you fight miracles? What was your sideboard plan?

At the moment my most consistent losses are to my self, and then miracles (though my sample size isnt that big)

Luckily, I got to dodge miracles bc that deck gives me a headache. Plan is to cut the superfluous stuff and add threats. games terminus and jace etc.


Congratz Ricardio, my man. From the 3 s games its clear that you really hate that miracles mu! When do you board in the full 3 copies?

Thanks man. I brought it in a few times but its mostly for combo and miracles.


Congrats Ricardio! Very nice streamlined list.
How was 0 tusk for ya?

Thank you. Its a labor of love.
It felt absolutely fine. most of the time you want rhino or sigarda and tusk is just an afterthought. Tuskless was fine.

thanks for all the feedback and praise. Makes me excited to continue working on this deck.

[Bobmans]

Congratz Ricardio, my man. From the 3 s games its clear that you really hate that miracles mu!

Thinking about SGames vs the current Miracles it is not so much more threatening. They run less Entreat, some 1 some even 0. between 2-4 Mentor. 1-2 Clique and 1-3 Snapcaster Mage. Still SGames hits Jace, which is the most annoying card, but it feels like that SGames doesn't perfom like it used to. How do others feel about this card vs Miracles?

[Ricardio]

Thinking about SGames vs the current Miracles it is not so much more threatening. They run less Entreat, some 1 some even 0. between 2-4 Mentor. 1-2 Clique and 1-3 Snapcaster Mage. Still SGames hits Jace, which is the most annoying card, but it feels like that SGames doesn't perfom like it used to. How do others feel about this card vs Miracles?

I bring it in to deal with jace and terminus. Those are their best cards against us. We have decay/deed for their counterbalance/mentor. running out rhinos is unbeatable when they have no jtms or term.

[Nerubian]

Hi guys, potential new Nic Fit player here. As someone moving from Modern into Legacy - I enjoy these decks that seem to play the oddest cards/toolbox decks. I played Pod, followed by now Abzan Company in modern as a reference.

Moving into Legacy the Junk Rhino version of Nic Fits seems to excite me in odd ways. I like the idea of casting Standard Staples like Thragtusk and Rhino or EDH cards like Meren, Titania or Sigarda in a format notorious for playing 'the best cards'.

Now, a few questions for you - Besides 4 Cabal/Vetern and some mixture of Deeds/Rhino/Fatties what is core to the deck. Is top a necessity to the deck - or would more draw/tutors be alright.

This is something i'm looking at right now - tell me what I'm doing wrong guys :)

Land (22)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath

Creature (16)

3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer Flip
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer

Instant (6)

2x Abrupt Decay
4x Path to Exile

Sorcery (12)

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Painful Truths
1x Vindicate
Enchantment (4)

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare

Sideboard (15)

1x Abrupt Decay
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Pithing Needle
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thoughtseize
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vraska the Unseen

[Navsi]

I'd say the common core of most Nic Fit decks is:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith (can be cut in some pod / bug lists)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2+ Abrupt decay
1+ Draw Spell (Truths, Read the Bones, Skeletal Scrying)
1 Eternal Witness
2+ Bayou
2-3 Forest
1-2 Swamp
1-2 Other Basic Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
1-3 Other Green Fetchland

IMO Top is pretty important since you really want some repeatable card selection. You have a lot of variance in your draws, particularly lategame - you play huge bombs like Meren, Sigarda and so on, but also 1/1 dorks like Veteran Explorer. Having card selection lets you leverage your potential excellent topdecks and you access to a large number of shuffle effects.

The only real replacement is Sylvan Library, which has a few advantages (dodging chalice@1 which is already awful, and being free / potential actual draws) but also harms the deck in other ways- mainly, it makes Deed a lot more awkward and is a lot easier to remove since you can Abrupt Decay it.

[Ricardio]

I stand corrected...

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/288744-creatures-with-death-touch-and-first-strike
(http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/288744-creatures-with-death-touch-and-first-strike)

I just had the time to read this thread and holy sht I hope you were trolling. If you haven't read that, want a laugh and feel depressed/better about yourself, do it.

[Arianrhod]

If your metagame is slow, 3 Truths/2 Top is a fine package. In a faster meta, you probably want 3 Top/1 Sylvan. If your meta is a mix of both slow and fast, you can balance with 2 Truth/2 Top/1 Sylvan. Generally 4-5 dedicated draw/filter cards are where you want to be, coupled with the natural inherent card advantage of the deck and the cards we tend to run.

[Bobmans]

I'd say the common core of most Nic Fit decks is:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Green Sun's Zenith (can be cut in some pod / bug lists)
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2+ Abrupt decay
1+ Draw Spell (Truths, Read the Bones, Skeletal Scrying)
1 Eternal Witness
2+ Bayou
2-3 Forest
1-2 Swamp
1-2 Other Basic Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
1-3 Other Green Fetchland

IMO Top is pretty important since you really want some repeatable card selection. You have a lot of variance in your draws, particularly lategame - you play huge bombs like Meren, Sigarda and so on, but also 1/1 dorks like Veteran Explorer. Having card selection lets you leverage your potential excellent topdecks and you access to a large number of shuffle effects.

The only real replacement is Sylvan Library, which has a few advantages (dodging chalice@1 which is already awful, and being free / potential actual draws) but also harms the deck in other ways- mainly, it makes Deed a lot more awkward and is a lot easier to remove since you can Abrupt Decay it.

This, and the bold. I might add that Sensei's Divining Top is near impossible to get rid of AND it does not die to your own Pernicious Deed. Having a SDT out makes us so much more consistent. A lot of winning games involve an active top. Sensei's Divining Top is probably one of the most elegant card in Legacy. You can do all kinds of crazy shit with top. The other day i was holding a Top and had one in play. I knew i had removal in the top 3 as the only card and needed to find another removal spell, BUT i needed to look into the new top 3 before i untapped so i got all the mana. So i Spin top 3, in response cracked a fetch, in response Draw top, in response Spin top 3. The result was that drew the removal, shuffled my library and re-stacked my top 3 to find more good stuff before untapping. And with Courser of Krupix and/or Nissa, Vastwood Seer it even gets more crazy.

As for creatures, you typically want to have strictly green creatures in your GSZ build. Also, of those creatures, you want to bring something that gains life. This is due to make the transition to the lategame better. The lategame is where we shine. Getting Pernicious Deed blow-outs and bigger creatures then most decks have. But do not think lightly on the potential blow-out Cabal Therapy plus Veteran Explorer can have on T1/2.

[Ricardio]

Cabal therapy is key. Cabal therapy is the single best discard spell in all of magic and the most skill rewarding.

Also to echo them, you want atleast 2 SDT. they are absolutely necessary.

[Nerubian]

Thanks guys - looks like I'm cutting the Recurring Nightmare and a removal spell from that list to add at least 2 tops. I guess everyone eventually needs to learn how to top effectively and quickly. Another question - are there any videos or good matches to watch to help with the learning process of Nic Fit?

This thread is a bastion of knowledge that I'm going through.

[Arianrhod]

Thanks guys - looks like I'm cutting the Recurring Nightmare and a removal spell from that list to add at least 2 tops. I guess everyone eventually needs to learn how to top effectively and quickly. Another question - are there any videos or good matches to watch to help with the learning process of Nic Fit?

This thread is a bastion of knowledge that I'm going through.

If you need more background, thoughts, or insight into the deck's evolution, there is also this thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-%28GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control%29

This was the original thread. We branched off and re-made the thread with a full primer after almost 400 pages (7500 posts, containing remarkably little shitposting). There is a reason I'm as proud of this community as I am.

Obviously a lot of the material in this thread is dated, but there are definitely still some gems there, and if you have the time and the desire, it's probably worth the read-through.

[sdematt]

I think Recurring Nightmare is a great card, but with access to Meren, it may not be necessary anymore.

With regards to Slaughter Games, the card is straight bonkers. As Junk, you're a little bit softer to Jace, so being able to remove him is super key (and getting rid of Terminus is also fine as well). I wouldn't cut it, especially right now.

Top is definitely worth it, and Sylvan is highly recommended as a 1-of, since you usually end up drawing so many cards due to Rhinotime. I also love Truths and Scrying, but Sylvan is a bigger beating against Miracles.

With Intent back in the deck, someone has suggested to run Karakas again, especially with Eldrazi running around. However, I'm not sure so, considering the manabase. Thoughts?

-Matt

[Echelon]

I just had the time to read this thread and holy sht I hope you were trolling. If you haven't read that, want a laugh and feel depressed/better about yourself, do it.

OMG the stupidity in that thread. I had to stop reading after a couple of posts b/c I was starting to feel the need to fling my laptop through my TV. Repeatedly.

[Arianrhod]

I think Recurring Nightmare is a great card, but with access to Meren, it may not be necessary anymore.

With regards to Slaughter Games, the card is straight bonkers. As Junk, you're a little bit softer to Jace, so being able to remove him is super key (and getting rid of Terminus is also fine as well). I wouldn't cut it, especially right now.

Top is definitely worth it, and Sylvan is highly recommended as a 1-of, since you usually end up drawing so many cards due to Rhinotime. I also love Truths and Scrying, but Sylvan is a bigger beating against Miracles.

With Intent back in the deck, someone has suggested to run Karakas again, especially with Eldrazi running around. However, I'm not sure so, considering the manabase. Thoughts?

-Matt

What does Karakas do vs Eldrazi, exactly? None of their things are legendary.

Slaughter Games is also good vs Lands, since it can take away their Life from the Loam. Surgical is better in this role, obviously, but Sgt Slaughter will get the job done as well. But yeah, mostly for Miracles and combo.

I think that Nightmare is more powerful than Meren overall, actually. If I only had room for one, I would still with old faithful.

[Ricardio]

Thanks guys - looks like I'm cutting the Recurring Nightmare and a removal spell from that list to add at least 2 tops. I guess everyone eventually needs to learn how to top effectively and quickly. Another question - are there any videos or good matches to watch to help with the learning process of Nic Fit?

This thread is a bastion of knowledge that I'm going through.

Bastion? Like that guy from the neverending story?
removal is key seeing as this is just a bigger jund deck in legacy for lack of a better comparison.
Nic fit equation is Removal + Skillerhino^2 = Winning
A good starting point is my list, bob's or hood's(but mostly mine)


If you need more background, thoughts, or insight into the deck's evolution, there is also this thread:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-%28GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control%29

This was the original thread. We branched off and re-made the thread with a full primer after almost 400 pages (7500 posts, containing remarkably little shitposting). There is a reason I'm as proud of this community as I am.

Obviously a lot of the material in this thread is dated, but there are definitely still some gems there, and if you have the time and the desire, it's probably worth the read-through.

DATED!?? Who are you calling old? Soak up the information and learn from it, to put it simpliest.(fk you, its a word)


OMG the stupidity in that thread. I had to stop reading after a couple of posts b/c I was starting to feel the need to fling my laptop through my TV. Repeatedly.

Its like someone spilled stupid all over and then had a pod of walrus try to clean it up.


What does Karakas do vs Eldrazi, exactly? None of their things are legendary.

Slaughter Games is also good vs Lands, since it can take away their Life from the Loam. Surgical is better in this role, obviously, but Sgt Slaughter will get the job done as well. But yeah, mostly for Miracles and combo.

I think that Nightmare is more powerful than Meren overall, actually. If I only had room for one, I would still with old faithful.

Slaughter is great for naming problematic permanents like Ugin and JTMS or neutering combo. I have used it as a 4 cmc therapy before. Surgical hits dark depths/wasteland(save the karakas, save the world) and loam against lands.
I personally wont play nightmare because its more like dreamworld. Few times to I actively wish I had it and most often meren is much better.
We are a Control deck with built in value. not a combo deck. We aint cute, we're wiry and rugged.

I cant seem to find where my 5-0 is published. I am actively looking so there is some credit to my ramblings.

[Tom4ik]

you are playing veteran explorer and siege rhino in legacy. Arnt you already trying to live the dream?

[Bobmans]

I cant seem to find where my 5-0 is published. I am actively looking so there is some credit to my ramblings.

mtgdecks published from 26-02 and 29-02. Can't seem to find 27 and 28, if there is any.

[Ricardio]

you are playing veteran explorer and siege rhino in legacy. Arnt you already trying to live the dream?

Its not a dream if its real. I have pinched myself enough to verify this.


mtgdecks published from 26-02 and 29-02. Can't seem to find 27 and 28, if there is any.

I finished it last night. around 7ish PST but I live in EST. Tangible credit that I am infact a Skillerhino Lord would be nice.

[Arianrhod]

Its not a dream if its real. I have pinched myself enough to verify this.



I finished it last night. around 7ish PST but I live in EST. Tangible credit that I am infact a Skillerhino Lord would be nice.

Ricardio, Crash of Direhorns
2wbg
Creature - Rhino Lord
All other Rhino creatures you control get +1/+1 and vigilance.
4/5

[Ricardio]

Ricardio, Crash of Direhorns
2wbg
Creature - Rhino Lord
All other Rhino creatures you control get +1/+1 and vigilance.
4/5

WOTC, EMPLOY THIS PERSON!

Flavor Text:
I don't always Rhino. Actually, I do.
-Bobman

[Bobmans]

WOTC, EMPLOY THIS PERSON!

Flavor Text:
I don't always Rhino. Actually, I do.
-Bobman
Nailed it.





With regards to Slaughter Games, the card is straight bonkers. As Junk, you're a little bit softer to Jace, so being able to remove him is super key (and getting rid of Terminus is also fine as well). I wouldn't cut it, especially right now.

With Intent back in the deck, someone has suggested to run Karakas again, especially with Eldrazi running around. However, I'm not sure so, considering the manabase. Thoughts?

-Matt

Running Taiga for SG means you'd probably not want to also run Karakas. But if you do, i'd would run a single Knight of the Reliquary. KotR can fetch up the Taiga (or flip away the Taiga in MU's where you don't need the R).

[Ricardio]

Nailed it.

Running Taiga for SG means you'd probably not want to also run Karakas. But if you do, i'd would run a single Knight of the Reliquary. KotR can fetch up the Taiga (or flip away the Taiga in MU's where you don't need the R).

Sweet!

I ran both and didn't have any problems. I felt karakas necessary because dealing with reanimator and the occasionaly turbo lage deck, you absolutely need it. Taiga is a pseudo-forest and karakas is my extra white source/sigarda Segway.

Maindeck feels super strong right now. SB can continue to be tweaked. Thalia felt bad, albeit I never drew her, when I brought her in and thought about drawing her, she was more of an inconvenience than a good card against my opponent. Since we have the mana, I want something more hard hitting. what do you guys think of Painful Quandary instead for storm and slow matchups? How rubble would call it :Is a spicy meatball. haha (no offense intended)

[Arianrhod]

Sweet!

I ran both and didn't have any problems. I felt karakas necessary because dealing with reanimator and the occasionaly turbo lage deck, you absolutely need it. Taiga is a pseudo-forest and karakas is my extra white source/sigarda Segway.

Maindeck feels super strong right now. SB can continue to be tweaked. Thalia felt bad, albeit I never drew her, when I brought her in and thought about drawing her, she was more of an inconvenience than a good card against my opponent. Since we have the mana, I want something more hard hitting. what do you guys think of Painful Quandary instead for storm and slow matchups? How rubble would call it :Is a spicy meatball. haha (no offense intended)

I've tried Painful Quandry in the past and it's never as good as you want it to be, sadly. Try Mindcensor. It still helps in storm (heavily, actually), and is also great in a lot of randomshit.dec matchups.

[Ricardio]

I've tried Painful Quandry in the past and it's never as good as you want it to be, sadly. Try Mindcensor. It still helps in storm (heavily, actually), and is also great in a lot of randomshit.dec matchups.

I will look into the bird, it just doesn't seem as appealing as I want it to. Any other spice? I just wanna throw stuff at the wall and hope it sticks for the sb.

[Arianrhod]

I will look into the bird, it just doesn't seem as appealing as I want it to. Any other spice? I just wanna throw stuff at the wall and hope it sticks for the sb.

Trinisphere is insane, but might not be as great if you don't have multiple ways of turn 2ing it (ie, posts + vet/therapy). Nether Void has been a standby of mine for a longass time -- most storm decks these days are functionally incapable of beating it since it can't be Decayed (also the part where it locks them out of most spells).

Ralf swears by Dryad Militant -- I'm always hesitant because it exiles your Therapies, which halves your effect discard, but it's put up numbers for him.

Those are the main things I would recommend. I have a box full of random garbage like you wouldn't even believe that I've tried over the years. Most of it hasn't worked out, but some of it is hilarious. Have you ever seen Delver/(old) Miracles try to figure out how to beat Raking Canopy?

[Ricardio]

Trinisphere is insane, but might not be as great if you don't have multiple ways of turn 2ing it (ie, posts + vet/therapy). Nether Void has been a standby of mine for a longass time -- most storm decks these days are functionally incapable of beating it since it can't be Decayed (also the part where it locks them out of most spells).

Ralf swears by Dryad Militant -- I'm always hesitant because it exiles your Therapies, which halves your effect discard, but it's put up numbers for him.

Those are the main things I would recommend. I have a box full of random garbage like you wouldn't even believe that I've tried over the years. Most of it hasn't worked out, but some of it is hilarious. Have you ever seen Delver/(old) Miracles try to figure out how to beat Raking Canopy?

I will have to try a nether void.
Yes. Raking canopy is that spicy tech from the jungle.
I do really want to try pq though. Idk if chains is still sideboard able.
Maybe try something here and there. Check gatherer and talk to my buddy who always finds spicy tech.

[Ralf]

Ralf swears by Dryad Militant -- I'm always hesitant because it exiles your Therapies, which halves your effect discard, but it's put up numbers for him.


Yes.
I also tend to believe that if you GSZ for it, it basically means that dryad > therapy @ this very current stage of the game.
That little sucker has done so much for me. It is almost never expected and it is such a beating in some MU (dredge & ANT to name a few).


@ Ricardio:

I'm glad you try cutting Tusk. It is definitely not needed from my tests.
You should also try the bird & Sorin.

That PW can change the tide of a game so hard...It is almost unbelievable.
I did beat a MUD player with its own Wurmcoil once and a Miracle player with its own Jace.

Hilarious to say the least.

[Ricardio]

Yes.
I also tend to believe that if you GSZ for it, it basically means that dryad > therapy @ this very current stage of the game.
That little sucker has done so much for me. It is almost never expected and it is such a beating in some MU (dredge & ANT to name a few).


@ Ricardio:

I'm glad you try cutting Tusk. It is definitely not needed from my tests.
You should also try the bird & Sorin.

That PW can change the tide of a game so hard...It is almost unbelievable.
I did beat a MUD player with its own Wurmcoil once and a Miracle player with its own Jace.

Hilarious to say the least.

I'm sold on sorin now. Haha bird not so much.
Glad you are trying it. You just don't have enough pressure on your own life total and your creatures gain it back without you thinking.

[Brael]

Hi guys, potential new Nic Fit player here. As someone moving from Modern into Legacy - I enjoy these decks that seem to play the oddest cards/toolbox decks. I played Pod, followed by now Abzan Company in modern as a reference.

Moving into Legacy the Junk Rhino version of Nic Fits seems to excite me in odd ways. I like the idea of casting Standard Staples like Thragtusk and Rhino or EDH cards like Meren, Titania or Sigarda in a format notorious for playing 'the best cards'.

Now, a few questions for you - Besides 4 Cabal/Vetern and some mixture of Deeds/Rhino/Fatties what is core to the deck. Is top a necessity to the deck - or would more draw/tutors be alright.

This is something i'm looking at right now - tell me what I'm doing wrong guys :)


Top is very important, the deck just doesn't function without it. In your creature package you might want to consider a Courser or two, it has a real good interaction with Top and the lifegain can actually come into play.

I'm way less accomplished than others here with the deck, but I usually do pretty well at our Legacy tournaments (though I haven't been able to play our weeklies for the past couple months). Here's the list I use, I'll spare you the sideboard and add the disclaimer that I haven't kept up with this thread for a few weeks so I may be missing some new card everyone figured out.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Path to Exile
1 Innocent Blood
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths

Enchantment 3
3 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

[Echelon]

I believe I'm in the camp with the lone tent when it comes to the necessity of Top (specifically). That being said, I do run 2 Diabolic Intent and 2 Painful Truths to find what I need. I do find that you do need something to help you dick around more efficiently, I just don't think it must specifically be Top.

I'm currently preparing my list for the upcoming monthly. I've upgraded my sideboard to have 2 Krosan Grip & 2 Ethersworn Canonist. As for flex slots, currently I'm looking at the following 4:
- Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (I agree on its utility vs. Miracles and it's just funny as hell)
- Ajani, Mentor of Heroes (allows you to pull ahead very quickly)
- Glissa, the Traitor (master of the battlefield)
- Gaddock Teeg/Qasali Pridemage/Dragonlord Dromoka

Please do remember that I do not run any Abrupt Decays, hence the thought of Qasali Pridemage as a GSZ'able semi-Abrupt Decay. It should give me some more outs G1 vs. Miracles (if I do run into it) and anything running lock pieces. In the worst case scenario it's a 3/3 beater for 2 mana so it's never really a dead card.

I might consider switching Ajani for Gaddock Teeg to improve my G1 vs. anyStorm.

[Bobmans]

I played a bunch of games with El-Nicky, hence Eldrazi NicFit. The list had a Waste for Veteran Explorer, 8Post mana and played 3 Matter Reshaper and 2 TKS along with a 2/2 split WW. Furthermore it had the usual GB tools. And finally i had Kozilek 1.0 and Emrakul.
Quick conclusion was that i never got to the point of casting Emrakul or Kozilek. I either won thru board control with beats or i lost. Seems to me that BGDevoid is better in midrange aggro/control then it is with a combo finisher with A Lot of mana, maybe a World Breaker as a panic button at the most.
However, i did like be jamming some Eldrazi in a NicFit shell (Matter Reshaper, Spin top in response to trigger) and will continue a little more on the deck > value to Llanowar Wastes.

[rubblekill]

Sweet!

I ran both and didn't have any problems. I felt karakas necessary because dealing with reanimator and the occasionaly turbo lage deck, you absolutely need it. Taiga is a pseudo-forest and karakas is my extra white source/sigarda Segway.

Maindeck feels super strong right now. SB can continue to be tweaked. Thalia felt bad, albeit I never drew her, when I brought her in and thought about drawing her, she was more of an inconvenience than a good card against my opponent. Since we have the mana, I want something more hard hitting. what do you guys think of Painful Quandary instead for storm and slow matchups? How rubble would call it :Is a spicy meatball. haha (no offense intended)

Spicy indeed, my friend. The problem I see with that card is that for 5 mana it really is too slow against storm (since you mentioned storm and slow matchups). SGames is pushing it already against ANT cmc-wise, but at least it can remove their only win condition thus leading to the win (and SGames replaces the bombs in the main deck that would be useless against storm otherwise).

Maybe against slow matchups it can be decent? But what matchup are we talking about? Miracles (SGames is straight up better against it imho) and Shardless? It seems cute but since it costs 0.016 tix online I might just give it a shot.

[Ricardio]

Spicy indeed, my friend. The problem I see with that card is that for 5 mana it really is too slow against storm (since you mentioned storm and slow matchups). SGames is pushing it already against ANT cmc-wise, but at least it can remove their only win condition thus leading to the win (and SGames replaces the bombs in the main deck that would be useless against storm otherwise).

Maybe against slow matchups it can be decent? But what matchup are we talking about? Miracles (SGames is straight up better against it imho) and Shardless? It seems cute but since it costs 0.016 tix online I might just give it a shot.

My thought process is that once I land the quandary it becomes a lock piece. I hand hate them, establish board presence and land QP. then every spell they cast, they have to discard a card or lose 5 life. Its like a tilted clock to push my opponent into a hole.

it cost me .034 tix aka mad tix bro. haha

[rubblekill]

My thought process is that once I land the quandary it becomes a lock piece. I hand hate them, establish board presence and land QP. then every spell they cast, they have to discard a card or lose 5 life. Its like a tilted clock to push my opponent into a hole.

it cost me .034 tix aka mad tix bro. haha

That *might* work against non-storm decks. ANT players are gonna laugh at us when they duress us and see a 5cmc enchantment. SG at 4 mana is pushing it already imo, and one turn can be the difference between a win and a loss.

On the militant topic: I tried her a couple months ago but it does nothing unless she hits the board in T1-2. For this reason I'd rather play more discard/surgicals instead to be honest.

[Ricardio]

That *might* work against non-storm decks. ANT players are gonna laugh at us when they duress us and see a 5cmc enchantment. SG at 4 mana is pushing it already imo, and one turn can be the difference between a win and a loss.

On the militant topic: I tried her a couple months ago but it does nothing unless she hits the board in T1-2. For this reason I'd rather play more discard/surgicals instead to be honest.

Well, I am going to try it because I NEED TO. So often I have hand hate and a threat to followup but I want maintained disruption. A therapy and rhino is good against storm but when each spell they want to caast creates this dilemma: discard or take 5? I can force them to mess up and rhino wins. you can naysay in the corner.

I agree with your thoughts on militant. I've played it and it hurts if not slows storm a bit but its not anywhere close to canonist or teeg in reality. killing half our therapies is a real cost as well.

[TTX]

Also, Dryad only shuts off Past In Flames and Cabal Ritual threshold. I think more Surgicals and a turn later Teeg is better. I like Painful Quandary against storm, but we need faster disruption (already stated).

On the Planeswalker singleton over Swagtusk topic, has Vraska the Unseen been considered? It's a removal spell with a built in win condition. Like most of the cards in Nic Fit, I like taking the "discombobulate the opponent" by playing spells they don't see in Legacy. Btw, Vraska can kill JtMS immediately as opposed to Sorin, who takes a few turns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ricardio]

Also, Dryad only shuts off Past In Flames and Cabal Ritual threshold. I think more Surgicals and a turn later Teeg is better. I like Painful Quandary against storm, but we need faster disruption (already stated).

On the Planeswalker singleton over Swagtusk topic, has Vraska the Unseen been considered? It's a removal spell with a built in win condition. Like most of the cards in Nic Fit, I like taking the "discombobulate the opponent" by playing spells they don't see in Legacy. Btw, Vraska can kill JtMS immediately as opposed to Sorin, who takes a few turns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dryad potentially shuts off PiF and if you have it t1/t2 then it can prevent threshold but lands and artifacts still go to the graveyard. PQ prevents the Ad Nauseam plan and forces them to put even more pressure on their resources.
I think pw is a pick your poison kind of thing. you can play w/o it but if you wanna try it out, I assume its fine. I liked his sorin story so im going o try it out of the sb along with PQ.

[rubblekill]

On a different topic, I am currently playing Hallowed Moonlight in the sb, since it hits a variety of decks (Marit Lage decks, GSZ decks, reanimator, S&S, dredge and even miracles and aether vial decks - although I am not sure I want to board it in those match ups-), plus it replaces itself.
Between 2 surgicals 1 rip 3 games 1 hallowed moonlight AND path ooze and drs, I have to say I feel covered for the lands match up (which I have been seeing quite often recently on modo).

[Ricardio]

On a different topic, I am currently playing Hallowed Moonlight in the sb, since it hits a variety of decks (Marit Lage decks, GSZ decks, reanimator, S&S, dredge and even miracles and aether vial decks - although I am not sure I want to board it in those match ups-), plus it replaces itself.
Between 2 surgicals 1 rip 3 games 1 hallowed moonlight AND path ooze and drs, I have to say I feel covered for the lands match up (which I have been seeing quite often recently on modo).

I think rip effects us just as much if not more. Games does not seem good against them but surgical is because you can target nonbasics. Needle seems like the right call instead of hallowed moonlight bc deed comes out. HM just requires you to hold it up and im not a fan of trying to play some weird subgame.

[Nerubian]

Also, Dryad only shuts off Past In Flames and Cabal Ritual threshold. I think more Surgicals and a turn later Teeg is better. I like Painful Quandary against storm, but we need faster disruption (already stated).

On the Planeswalker singleton over Swagtusk topic, has Vraska the Unseen been considered? It's a removal spell with a built in win condition. Like most of the cards in Nic Fit, I like taking the "discombobulate the opponent" by playing spells they don't see in Legacy. Btw, Vraska can kill JtMS immediately as opposed to Sorin, who takes a few turns.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I run both Vraska and Elspeth, Sun's Champion in my sideboard. I have an unhealthy obsession with both of these cards - Vraska is 1-1 removal and then can do it again if we can stall the board for a turn. And Sun's Champion is a house against Eldrazi and is simply bigger than Sorin. It costs a bit more - but that's what we do, right? Plus, she goes real wide with an ultimate that doesn't necessarily need us to kill enemy things.

[Ricardio]

I run both Vraska and Elspeth, Sun's Champion in my sideboard. I have an unhealthy obsession with both of these cards - Vraska is 1-1 removal and then can do it again if we can stall the board for a turn. And Sun's Champion is a house against Eldrazi and is simply bigger than Sorin. It costs a bit more - but that's what we do, right? Plus, she goes real wide with an ultimate that doesn't necessarily need us to kill enemy things.

My vraska dealings in nic fit were not impressive, same with suns champ. I wanted them to be stronger than they were so I forced them and found out they are not all I need them to be. Nic fit is amazing because you can find your style and configuration and then mold it to how you want it.

[Navsi]

IMO if you want 5-mana value / removal walker, I'm more inclined towards Ob Nixilis Reignited over Vraska. His +1 is significantly more relevant, and his ultimate is probably just as good at winning the game.

[Fatal]

I played a bunch of games with El-Nicky, hence Eldrazi NicFit. The list had a Waste for Veteran Explorer, 8Post mana and played 3 Matter Reshaper and 2 TKS along with a 2/2 split WW. Furthermore it had the usual GB tools. And finally i had Kozilek 1.0 and Emrakul.
Quick conclusion was that i never got to the point of casting Emrakul or Kozilek. I either won thru board control with beats or i lost. Seems to me that BGDevoid is better in midrange aggro/control then it is with a combo finisher with A Lot of mana, maybe a World Breaker as a panic button at the most.
However, i did like be jamming some Eldrazi in a NicFit shell (Matter Reshaper, Spin top in response to trigger) and will continue a little more on the deck > value to Llanowar Wastes.

Could you post list which was tested ?

[rubblekill]

I think rip effects us just as much if not more. Games does not seem good against them but surgical is because you can target nonbasics. Needle seems like the right call instead of hallowed moonlight bc deed comes out. HM just requires you to hold it up and im not a fan of trying to play some weird subgame.

Rip hurts us just a little bit, while instead obliterates the opponents strategy (of course in the specific match ups we board it in); I'm fine with this trade.

Games is just additional surgical effects, I run games mainly for miracles and storm but the splash damage they can provide against lands decks is brutal; these matches are always long and games removes loam and/or of even fires.

HM is my (pretty much only) flex spot in my sb: I need to play it more to decide if its a keeper, but it cannot be denied that as a one of it hurts a lot of unfair strategies. I like it on paper, I will report my results with it in the future.

E. Against degenerate strategies sometimes we have to play those weird sub games in my opinion.
E2. Games cannot remove dark depths, I had to read the card again.

[Brael]

Rip hurts us just a little bit, while instead obliterates the opponents strategy (of course in the specific match ups we board it in); I'm fine with this trade.

RIP hurts a lot, most notably it shuts off Veteran Explorer triggers and doesn't get along well with Deed.


I believe I'm in the camp with the lone tent when it comes to the necessity of Top (specifically). That being said, I do run 2 Diabolic Intent and 2 Painful Truths to find what I need. I do find that you do need something to help you dick around more efficiently, I just don't think it must specifically be Top.

The deck shell is versatile enough that you don't need top, but it just does so much for the deck. A repeating source of search is great, and in a deck like this where we have a big gap between hits and misses (Rhino vs hitting a land) the quality really comes into play. That said, I think you're doing yourself a huge disservice to not play Top, I was even using it in the BUG version over Brainstorms.

What really makes top though in my opinion (and this will vary by meta) is the interaction with Courser of Kruphix, which allows you to start gaining multiple life and cards each and every turn. If your meta has a lot of decks like Shardles BUG this interaction just flat out wins the game, if you have a top down your opponents cannot out grind you their only option is to go faster.

[Navsi]

games removes ... dark depths

No it doesn't.

If you want an effect that straight up ends the game against tendrils decks, aren't there cheaper effects than Painful Quandary? Teeg, Rule of Law and Canonist come to mind. They're vulnerable to Decay, but even if you want resistance to Decay is why you're playing PQ isn't Leyline of Sanctity or Nether Void still more relevant?

[Ricardio]

IMO if you want 5-mana value / removal walker, I'm more inclined towards Ob Nixilis Reignited over Vraska. His +1 is significantly more relevant, and his ultimate is probably just as good at winning the game.

planeswalkers don't have ultimates. Vraska also kills almost anything where as nix is just CA for a while. I like neither personally. Ajani seems better.


Rip hurts us just a little bit, while instead obliterates the opponents strategy (of course in the specific match ups we board it in); I'm fine with this trade.

Games is just additional surgical effects, I run games mainly for miracles and storm but the splash damage they can provide against lands decks is brutal; these matches are always long and games removes loam and/or dark depths of even fires.

HM is my (pretty much only) flex spot in my sb: I need to play it more to decide if its a keeper, but it cannot be denied that as a one of it hurts a lot of unfair strategies. I like it on paper, I will report my results with it in the future.

E. Against degenerate strategies sometimes we have to play those weird sub games in my opinion.

RIP hurts us a lot and isn't really necessary since we have fine mu's against the decks you want it against. Shutting off vet is HUGE.
Games is just not good enough against lands.
there is something better than hallowed moonlight but I don't know what you are really looking for with that last slot. holding up mana each turn becomes a tell and you start losing tempo. its a waste imho.


RIP hurts a lot, most notably it shuts off Veteran Explorer triggers and doesn't get along well with Deed.

Yes, albeit the decks we bring in rip, we don't need deed for more than 0(tokens, mana rocks). I don't think deed is a problem in conjunction with rip. I will not play rip in my nic fit 75. there must be extenuating circumstances at which point I should just be playing an entirely different deck.

[rubblekill]

I had to read again Slaughter Games, my bad. That doesn't mean that the card hasn't won me multiple games against lands.
I don't actually think that the card is the best solution against lands, but since I have this additional surgical effect in the sideboard why not put it to good use to extract loams?


RIP hurts a lot, most notably it shuts off Veteran Explorer triggers and doesn't get along well with Deed.

I have disagree here good sir. We have to take into consideration the match ups in which we would bring in Rest in Peace. These are:

-Reanimator
-Lands
-Storm
-Dredge
(am I forgetting something else?)

Why would RIP hurt us? Because of the following card that are the undisputed "core" of the Nic-Fit strategy: cabal therapy, deed, Meren (she is to a lesser extent a part of the "core" of the deck, however it seems that most people play her), eternal witness, ooze, DRS. With RIP on the table these cards cannot provide us the value they usually provide.

Why do I say that in the match ups listed above RIP does NOT hurt us? That's because RIP single handedly obliterates some of those strategies (Lands and Dredge) and I'm really happy to trade that huge advantage with the inability to abuse cabal therapy and veteran, deed and witness. Witness and veteran aside, these cards are not extremely good against those decks anyways. And against lands I'd rather nuke their graveyard than triggering vet.

What about Reanimator? Unless they bring in Show and Tell, RIP buys enough time to search for and put ooze/DRS on the ground, and as long as they don't find decay they cannot win at all.
What if they bring in Show and tell, what do we do? We do what we do against Sneak and Show already, and that is dying a horrible death. This is where Hallowed Moonlight shows its flexibility and the ability to invalidate certain unfair strategies on the stack, and not via discard/hate bears. Remember that even if they decay RIP, the graveyard remains nuked and the same applies for the creatures that were in it when RIP entered the battlefield. Look at it like a reset button.

Now, storm is a different beast. They can still win with RIP on the field via natural storm, but that requires more time for the opponent and this is the window of time we can take advantage of in order to find/cast discard spells-play our hate bears/reach 4 mana and press the win button via Slaughter Games.
With RIP we lose flashback-cabal therapy, deed, Meren, eternal witness. Amongst those cards I only care for the flashback therapy against storm, but we bring in 2-3 surgicals + 3 additional discard spells from the sb to compensate that. Fair trade in my opinion.

I find it silly to not run the best gy hate ever printed while we play white already; and it only takes 1 slot in the sideboard. In my humble opinion the cost vs. benefit analysis leads me to believe that in the match ups listed above RIP hurts the opponent WAY MORE than it hurts us.



Games is just not good enough against lands.
There is something better than hallowed moonlight but I don't know what you are really looking for with that last slot. holding up mana each turn becomes a tell and you start losing tempo. its a waste imho..

Games has won me multiple games against lands, bar the super early Marit Lage that can be dealt with via paths.
HM is a mean that allow us to not die and stay alive, what's the point of tempo against a T2-3 (or earlier, and in that case HM is useless like the rest of our deck) Griselbrand? It is a card I'm only testing for now, as I said I like it in paper, I might dislike it when I play it.

[Bobmans]

Could you post list which was tested ?

Sure. note; It took me more time to post the list then it did thinking it up. I wanted to feel how both 'things' would feel during play, hence Eldrazi creatures in a NicFit deck and the spaghetti monster endgame. I don't think you need both, just either is fine.


4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Matter Reshaper
2 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Warping Wail
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Wastes
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

sideboard
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Memoricide
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trinisphere


Edit; after posting i did get to the point of resolving Emrakul. Pretty sweet, but i was already winning at that point.

[Ricardio]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/382111#paper

Told ya. I did it.

[Tom4ik]

I died some horrible deaths on saturday with Team America control on saturday. I am going to play nic fit tomorrow.

proposed list :

22 land

2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 island
2 forest
2 swamp
9 fetches
volrath's stronghold

12
4 veteran explorer
4 baleful strix
1 eternal witness
2 thragtusk
1 grave titan

25
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
2 painful truths
3 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
1 recurring nightmare
1 green sun's zenith

[Ricardio]

I died some horrible deaths on saturday with Team America control on saturday. I am going to play nic fit tomorrow.

proposed list :

22 land

2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 island
2 forest
2 swamp
9 fetches
volrath's stronghold

12
4 veteran explorer
4 baleful strix
1 eternal witness
2 thragtusk
1 grave titan

25
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
2 painful truths
3 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
1 recurring nightmare
1 green sun's zenith



Gsz and nightmare seems ambitious. I believe deluge main would be ideal along with some number of innocent blood. MOAR planewalkers? Glissa for strix value?

[Tom4ik]

The removal package of 2 lily, 3 decay, 3 deed -> 2 deed, 1 deluge, 2 decay, 2 capsule (to go with Glissa). Drop Titan for Glissa. Drop nightmare for a second GSZ. Could play flip Garruk and make a better tutor situation.

[Ricardio]

The removal package of 2 lily, 3 decay, 3 deed -> 2 deed, 1 deluge, 2 decay, 2 capsule (to go with Glissa). Drop Titan for Glissa. Drop nightmare for a second GSZ. Could play flip Garruk and make a better tutor situation.

those sound good. maybe a karn or ugin? If you are going up on gsz, prime time looks appealing.

[Tom4ik]

I wonder if actually meren would also be good. Maybe play that instead of Garruk and add a Ptower. Setting up Meren with strix should be a fine source of CA. I could buy her tomorrow.

What about a trinket mage package? That goes well with running a singleton top, EE, capsule.

Godamn this deck....... why do I visit this thread.... Lol

[Ricardio]

I wonder if actually meren would also be good. Maybe play that instead of Garruk and add a Ptower. Setting up Meren with strix should be a fine source of CA. I could buy her tomorrow.

What about a trinket mage package? That goes well with running a singleton top, EE, capsule.

Godamn this deck....... why do I visit this thread.... Lol

haha this deck is overflowing with value. WE ARE HERE TO HELP!

revise your list and lets see where we are at now.

[Ganfar]

RIP hurts a lot, most notably it shuts off Veteran Explorer triggers and doesn't get along well with Deed.
I had people sideboarding RIP agianst me. Yes, it make somethins worse but it's easy to play around it.

[Ricardio]

I had people sideboarding RIP agianst me. Yes, it make somethins worse but it's easy to play around it.

I am referring to playing the card ourselves. its less of a lock piece and more of a bee sting against us. slows down some hands and doesn't effect others.

I think that between the mb and sb we have, rip is totally unnecessary. In the meta where its needed, major changes should have already been made to fix your matchups. Like fortifying your car to go underwater when you should just change to a submarine.

[Jain_Mor]

Currently 15-10 in League matches, 36-23 in games, with various tweaks on a SFM build.
I'm convinced the majority of loses are because of me, (first time playing on modo and magic is hard you guys..), which is great cause the deck has legs, I just need to get better at kicking people over with them, and then miracles (winning game 1 a lot and then losing to wear//tear on deed or needle or equipment or all of those end of turn, to free a jace or mentor or entreat etc)

Game Win / Losses:

Miracles 3 / 6
Elves 2 / 4 (just needed a land in the top 3.. and for him not to top deck NO one turn. Don't think match is bad)
Shardless 4 / 5
BUG Fit 2 / 0 (Sunyveil on stream, sweet match!: http://www.twitch.tv/sunyveil/v/46712955?t=01h49m25s)
Eldrompy 3 / 1
Storm 2 / 0
bug delver 2 / 0
Reanimator 4 / 3
UR delver 2 / 1
Sneak Show 2 / 1
Infect 2 / 0
MUD 2 / 1
Merfolk 2 / 0
Belcher 1 / 2
Dredge 2 / 0
Aggro Loam 1 / 2

So I guess I'm going to try the slaughter games plan for miracles,
and keep grinding away.

[Ricardio]

Currently 15-10 in League matches, 36-23 in games, with various tweaks on a SFM build.
I'm convinced the majority of loses are because of me, (first time playing on modo and magic is hard you guys..), which is great cause the deck has legs, I just need to get better at kicking people over with them, and then miracles (winning game 1 a lot and then losing to wear//tear on deed or needle or equipment or all of those end of turn, to free a jace or mentor or entreat etc)

Game Win / Losses:

Miracles 3 / 6
Elves 2 / 4 (just needed a land in the top 3.. and for him not to top deck NO one turn. Don't think match is bad)
Shardless 4 / 5
BUG Fit 2 / 0 (Sunyveil on stream, sweet match!: http://www.twitch.tv/sunyveil/v/46712955?t=01h49m25s)
Eldrompy 3 / 1
Storm 2 / 0
bug delver 2 / 0
Reanimator 4 / 3
UR delver 2 / 1
Sneak Show 2 / 1
Infect 2 / 0
MUD 2 / 1
Merfolk 2 / 0
Belcher 1 / 2
Dredge 2 / 0
Aggro Loam 1 / 2

So I guess I'm going to try the slaughter games plan for miracles,
and keep grinding away.

Miracles is definitely a pulling teeth kind of feel. super grindy and slow. Keep going man, nice numbers so far. keep raising them!

[Warden]

I died some horrible deaths on saturday with Team America control on saturday. I am going to play nic fit tomorrow.

proposed list :

22 land

2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 island
2 forest
2 swamp
9 fetches
volrath's stronghold

12
4 veteran explorer
4 baleful strix
1 eternal witness
2 thragtusk
1 grave titan

25
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana, of the veil
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
2 painful truths
3 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
1 recurring nightmare
1 green sun's zenith



My eyes have cancer.
Seriously though, I can't find a strategy in this list. Everything is competing for attention. I would either build around deed + PWers or go value with a variety of big creatures and cantrips. As-is, there's so much fluff to draw cards you're putting yourself into "card X has to come out and save me".

@Spicy cards: I'm growing more and more fond of Humility and Armageddon for Eldrazi.dec. I would also consider Glissa in the 75 should my meta warrant it.

Last month I watched a kid play Necroplasm as tech against Elves. It's also applicable against Miracles and other low cc swarm strategies. Plasm was a goddamn house. Kev can attest to the trainwreck deck this kid played that demolished an Elves player. Super Grindy Pox with discard, bloodghast, vindicate, necroplasm, and darkblast.

@weekend: March monthly coming up. Last month's top 8 was combo (omni, painter, elves, dredge), stompy (red), and delver (Eli UR, BUG, Shardless). There was a surprising lack of Miracles, which will likely be corrected this time around. If combo and Eldrazi persist, I need a new angle. I may need Leylines and Thalias. Or just switch decks but I'm digging the Abbondanza.

[Arianrhod]

My eyes have cancer.
Seriously though, I can't find a strategy in this list. Everything is competing for attention. I would either build around deed + PWers or go value with a variety of big creatures and cantrips. As-is, there's so much fluff to draw cards you're putting yourself into "card X has to come out and save me".

@Spicy cards: I'm growing more and more fond of Humility and Armageddon for Eldrazi.dec. I would also consider Glissa in the 75 should my meta warrant it.

Last month I watched a kid play Necroplasm as tech against Elves. It's also applicable against Miracles and other low cc swarm strategies. Plasm was a goddamn house. Kev can attest to the trainwreck deck this kid played that demolished an Elves player. Super Grindy Pox with discard, bloodghast, vindicate, necroplasm, and darkblast.

@weekend: March monthly coming up. Last month's top 8 was combo (omni, painter, elves, dredge), stompy (red), and delver (Eli UR, BUG, Shardless). There was a surprising lack of Miracles, which will likely be corrected this time around. If combo and Eldrazi persist, I need a new angle. I may need Leylines and Thalias. Or just switch decks but I'm digging the Abbondanza.

That shit was goddamn hilarious.

I've slowly come to the conclusion that for whatever reason, people simply will not play Miracles at Mythic. There's always a couple, but they never do well for one reason or another. I wouldn't bother worrying about them specifically -- splash hate is fine (Slaughter Games, etc) -- but they're not worth focusing on.

The meta at Mythic has quietly been moving to a combo vs delver dichotomy for a while now. Delver isn't surprising -- Mythic, and Jupiter before it, has always had a strong Delver presence going back as far as I can remember, and it was Canadian Thresh before that. The prevalence of combo, and its success as well, has been surprising to me.

Dredge guy has made top 8 the last two months running, and per my knowledge is the only person in the room playing dredge. Not sure what to think about that. Painter has been gaining ground, and I expect will continue to do so in the face of the Eldrazi deck and the surge in RG Lands to counter it. There was a lot of Lands at Mythic last month, and we need to go into the event with a plan for that matchup. Surgicals and Pithing Needles are musts. I don't think we're in extreme territory (Conversion + planeswalkers), but it's no longer prudent to ignore it.

I -believe- Bryant will be at GP Detroit, so there's no real reason to bring specific storm hate. I wouldn't touch Thalia for this event. Nobody plays Storm in upstate NY other than Bryant these days. I don't know why that is, exactly, but that's what I've noticed. Might be he's the only one who can play through the mass of Delver, might be because Ning and Royce moved away. Regardless, I'm likely opting out of Trinisphere, Nether Void, and all of that type of hate for this event. I'll trade % vs Storm to gain elsewhere.

I almost want to say that Scape with maindeck Slaughter Games would be insane for the meta, but that runs into the problem of Delver then. Wouldn't play // can't play Scape anyway, but, just a thought. Maindecking some form of combo hate that's reasonable against other matchups is likely going to be very good. I'm reminded for like the 40th time that I really wish there was a Leyline/Helm version of Nic Fit, but no matter how many times I've tried it just doesn't work.

My thoughts on Mythic are thus and as follows:

-) Delver and various forms of combo will be big, specifically
-----) Elves and RG Lands, with a minor Infect subtheme running through the lower/mid tables.

This suggests that mini-sweepers will be very good, especially with the presence of the Young Pyro-fueled Grixis Delver decks. Pyroclasm is probably stupidly strong.

-) There will be a TON of random shit. The room last time ran the full gamut of tier 3 decks, the type of stuff that you can't really prepare for.

This suggests that you need a strong, proactive game-plan of your own, while still being very flexible and running answers that can solve multiple problems. Luckily, this is something Nic Fit is good at.

-) There were a lot of Nic Fit players last time...something like 5-7 out of ~50-60. I don't know if there will be that many this time, but it's reasonable to expect mirrors. This tends to favor Scape and Pasta, but as long as you have some semblance of a plan for the mirror you should be fine.

-) Eldrazi will be there. Not in force, but will be there. I don't plan to make many serious alterations to any list for their possible presence. I'm expecting them to field similar numbers to the Nic Fit community: probably something like 4-5 in the room. Further testing has shown that we do in fact have a positive matchup vs Eldrazi. We can lose it, but it IS positive. Glissa might be fine for board, but she's not required by any stretch. I don't think I'm worried about Eldrazi enough to bother with her.

This suggests that Baleful Strix's stock is ++, Baneslayer's stock is ++, and Dismember's stock is ++. Ensnaring Bridge's stock is also ++, as is Enchantress. This in turn means that being able to kill without needing the attack step is going to be relevant. Rhino lists should be running Nightmare for this event, for sure. K-Grip is going to be almost mandatory in the sideboard, probably as a 2-of for most lists.

At this point I'm either on Pastafarians or Baneslayers. The lifegain in Rhino attracts me, and getting to play the sweet grindy game is among my favorite things to do in Magic, but the Eldrazi list's matchups are actually pretty good at Mythic, and it can straight-up kill without needing to use the attack step, which Rhino can approximate but can't go arbitrarily large. I'm mostly worried about randomgarbage.dec -- Eldrazi has a strong, proactive plan, but it's like a turn 6 goldfish, which gives the opponent a lot of time to do random bad shit.

I dunno. If you held a gun to my head right now I would play Rhinos, but I'm looking for reasons to sling Pasta-people at opposing faces.

@Jain: I watched that stream battle. Games were amusing, dude's stream was HILARIOUSLY passive-aggressive and toxic. I don't think the streamer built his deck very well -- it had all the hallmarks of a bad BUG version that we've come to identify. It seemed like he was kind of put off on the archetype, which is a shame, but being as his deck was built poorly and Nic Fit takes a long time to master in general anyway, I can't say that I'm really surprised.

[Echelon]

What really makes top though in my opinion (and this will vary by meta) is the interaction with Courser of Kruphix, which allows you to start gaining multiple life and cards each and every turn. If your meta has a lot of decks like Shardles BUG this interaction just flat out wins the game, if you have a top down your opponents cannot out grind you their only option is to go faster.

Try a build with 10 fetch, 4 Vet Ex, 4 GSZ, 2 Diabolic Intent and if the mood hits you a Fierce Empath. Running 20/21 shuffle effects makes Courser good enough without the help of Top.

Also, Courser doesn't allow you to gain multiple life per turn as long as you can only play 1 land per turn.

Shardless remains a fine MU without Top. I have yet to get my first loss against it w/ my pile of madness.

[Ganfar]

I am referring to playing the card ourselves. its less of a lock piece and more of a bee sting against us. slows down some hands and doesn't effect others.

I think that between the mb and sb we have, rip is totally unnecessary. In the meta where its needed, major changes should have already been made to fix your matchups. Like fortifying your car to go underwater when you should just change to a submarine.

I agree, but I think it's funny to see RIP to be sideboraded agianst me. D&T don't like my P.Fire

[Ricardio]

I hate dnt. That deck is awful.

I've been testing the new bg 8 post. It's wonky but entertaining. I got to draw 7 against rug delver with koz. Boners everywhere.

[Ganfar]

I hate dnt. That deck is awful.

I've been testing the new bg 8 post. It's wonky but entertaining. I got to draw 7 against rug delver with koz. Boners everywhere.

Mirran C. Is the worst card. No creture in my whole deck can block it.

[Navsi]

@Arianrhod re:Scapeshift

I think you're right with regards to what you were saying about the backup man plan being nowhere near as relevant as it previously was. I'm looking at the moment at a couple of lists - either going in on the creature plan more than currently, or dropping some of the creatures and going for a more controlling strategy along the lines of the Punishing lists.

**Beatdown/Dudes Scapeshift**

2 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Catacombs
1 Foothills
2 Valakut
1 Kessig Wolf Run

4 Vet
1 STE
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Flip Nissa
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
2 Huntmaster
1 Meren
2 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Therapy
4 Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Top
2 Deed
2 Decay
1 Scapeshift
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Batterskull

SB:
1 Scape
1 Games
1 I.Blood
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
3 Surgical
2 Needle
2 Decay

**Control Scapeshift**

2 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bayou
4 Catacombs
1 Foothills
2 Valakut

4 Vet
1 Nissa
2 Witness
1 Thragtusk

4 Therapy
4 Burning Wish
3 GSZ
3 Top
3 Deed
3 Decay
2 Truths
2 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Toxic Deluge

SB:
1 Scape
1 Games
1 I.Blood
1 Massacre
1 Pulse
3 Pyroclasm
3 Surgical
2 Needle
2 Thragtusk

[Jain_Mor]

@Jain: I watched that stream battle. Games were amusing, dude's stream was HILARIOUSLY passive-aggressive and toxic. I don't think the streamer built his deck very well -- it had all the hallmarks of a bad BUG version that we've come to identify. It seemed like he was kind of put off on the archetype, which is a shame, but being as his deck was built poorly and Nic Fit takes a long time to master in general anyway, I can't say that I'm really surprised.

Ha, thanks for putting my feelings into words. Completely agree. That said he isn't a bad player, he's the guy that's been 5-0ing with the eldrazi list, and he recently 5-0d with Aggro Loam.

If only all my matches were against streamers.. then I wouldn't lose..

[Ricardio]

Ha, thanks for putting my feelings into words. Completely agree. That said he isn't a bad player, he's the guy that's been 5-0ing with the eldrazi list, and he recently 5-0d with Aggro Loam.

If only all my matches were against streamers.. then I wouldn't lose..

Beating streamers is fun but winning is fun also. When people do poorly with different decks, they tend to badmouth them and toss them after losing.

[TTX]

Mirran C. Is the worst card. No creture in my whole deck can block it.

Spiritmonger can block the crusader.:eek:

[Ricardio]

Spiritmonger can block the crusader.:eek:

But it does little else which makes it a liability.

[Tom4ik]

My eyes have cancer.
Seriously though, I can't find a strategy in this list. Everything is competing for attention. I would either build around deed + PWers or go value with a variety of big creatures and cantrips. As-is, there's so much fluff to draw cards you're putting yourself into "card X has to come out and save me".

I guess the goal was to leverage the removal into a board that either uses Nightmare to break open or to just beat down with Thragtusks. Things like stronghold and jace bounce make a single tusk a pretty big problem.

Not sure what you mean by X card to come and save me piece. The deck produces quite a bit of mana and with bs, truth, jace, probe you see a lot of cards. I think the deck would be fairly consistent but the lack of bombs does come up. I will say I play nic fit way more on the control side of things than a lot of people so it may just be that I am letting that affect my list.

In related news I may just pick up the white duals I need. (I do not have any because white? in legacy?) and join the legion of rhino fans.

[Ricardio]

I guess the goal was to leverage the removal into a board that either uses Nightmare to break open or to just beat down with Thragtusks. Things like stronghold and jace bounce make a single tusk a pretty big problem.

Not sure what you mean by X card to come and save me piece. The deck produces quite a bit of mana and with bs, truth, jace, probe you see a lot of cards. I think the deck would be fairly consistent but the lack of bombs does come up. I will say I play nic fit way more on the control side of things than a lot of people so it may just be that I am letting that affect my list.

In related news I may just pick up the white duals I need. (I do not have any because white? in legacy?) and join the legion of rhino fans.

One of us...One of us...One of us...

Good Morrow, do you have a moment to hear about our lord and savior, Skillerhino?

Its a scrub and 2 savannah. that's like 160 doll hairs murikan.

[Bobmans]

One of us...One of us...One of us...

Good Morrow, do you have a moment to hear about our lord and savior, Skillerhino?

Its a scrub and 2 savannah. that's like 160 doll hairs murikan.
Savannah and scrub also opens up Aggro Loam and Maverick. I really enjoy playing the first to.

[Ricardio]

Savannah and scrub also opens up Aggro Loam and Maverick. I really enjoy playing the first to.

Aggro loam is legit. Maverick is basically petting zoo taxes. not a fan.

I am hopeful something good comes out for nic fit in the upcoming reintroduction of innistrad.

[Arianrhod]

Aggro loam is legit. Maverick is basically petting zoo taxes. not a fan.

I am hopeful something good comes out for nic fit in the upcoming reintroduction of innistrad.

I mean, we got Sigarda, Huntmaster, and flip-Garruk last time. Not huge in terms of quantity, but very large for quality. The problem with Innistrad for us is that green tends to be centered around werewolves, which is innately a bad mechanic for legacy. Huntmaster only gets away with it because the card is superrrrrrrrrr pushed. White angels and black demons are all well and good, but until we get a better tutor than Green Sun, they only go so far.

[Navsi]

Werewolf planeswalker could be good enough if it's pushed like Huntmaster. Here's hoping for 2-3 CMC, since the transformed side dies to Decay anyway, may as well be as efficient as possible.

[Ricardio]

I mean, we got Sigarda, Huntmaster, and flip-Garruk last time. Not huge in terms of quantity, but very large for quality. The problem with Innistrad for us is that green tends to be centered around werewolves, which is innately a bad mechanic for legacy. Huntmaster only gets away with it because the card is superrrrrrrrrr pushed. White angels and black demons are all well and good, but until we get a better tutor than Green Sun, they only go so far.


Werewolf planeswalker could be good enough if it's pushed like Huntmaster. Here's hoping for 2-3 CMC, since the transformed side dies to Decay anyway, may as well be as efficient as possible.

yes. all of these things.

[Arianrhod]

Werewolf planeswalker could be good enough if it's pushed like Huntmaster. Here's hoping for 2-3 CMC, since the transformed side dies to Decay anyway, may as well be as efficient as possible.

Yeah. I read through her lore bits that they released today. She actually sounds like she's GW or Naya more than GR, which could just be a flavor fail. Since her lore makes a big deal out of the fact that she can shift freely between forms, I'm expecting her to be a bit less painful to manage than Garruk Relentless. She probably has like +1: flip, do X // +1: flip, do Y, or something like that, with a couple other abilities on each side. That'd actually be pretty nice, depending on the abilities in question. It's always frustrated me that Garruk Veil-Cursed's abilities are very relevant to us as an archetype, but they're locked away behind Relentless, and he's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to flip.

[Navsi]

She seems to be relatively G/R in attitude in the Uncharted Realms story, even if her backstory implies a more W inclination. I wouldn't be surprised if she was G/W on her human side and G/R on her werewolf side. I'd say it would be odd for her to be R flipped but castable without red mana, but they did it with Garruk Relentless so I guess there's no reason not to.

[maharis]

Here's hoping for 2-3 CMC, since the transformed side dies to Decay anyway, may as well be as efficient as possible.

This card has to be in Standard, so I wouldn't hold your breath. I would be shocked if it's a good 4-mana PW.

[Bobmans]

I have never played MTGO, but what would it cost to get into MTGO and buy NicFit?
Unbelievable, can't even login.

[rubblekill]

I have never played MTGO, but what would it cost to get into MTGO and buy NicFit?
Unbelievable, can't even login.

If you look at Ricardio's list in the link he posted you can look the total price online and on paper.
Online it is roughly 350/400 dollars.

[Arianrhod]

I'm very, very slowly working on getting the cards to mess around with stuff on modo as well. Within a couple of months I should be able to actually play. If I work on it 50 bucks or so at a time, it doesn't feel QUITE as awful. Still pretty bad, but, oh well.

[Bobmans]

I'm very, very slowly working on getting the cards to mess around with stuff on modo as well. Within a couple of months I should be able to actually play. If I work on it 50 bucks or so at a time, it doesn't feel QUITE as awful. Still pretty bad, but, oh well.

They are not really motivating me to spend 400 bucks if they are on maintenance during my night off... can't even create an account..

[Jain_Mor]

@Bobmans, I started playing pauper first to get comfortable with it without breaking the bank. Then I played pauper leagues and realised it was worthy of my time. Then legacy was announced so I bought in, and yea about 400usd including my sideboards sideboard.

Most expensive card is verdant catacombs

[Bobmans]

While waiting for the maintenance: Arlinn Kord. She is Green for sure, but her lore sounds a bit dark so can even be GBx. Really exciting. I hope she's GBx and playable in Legacy by NicFit standards.


"Arlinn Kord is a tormented werewolf, originally from Avabruck, who has a gift unique among her kind: she is a Planeswalker.

Arlinn was a teenager when the howls of the Mondronen werewolf pack summoned her into the forest and she completed her First Hunt. She always fought against the change, and used Avacynian charms, prayers, and fasting to ward it off as much as possible. She even studied magic in the church, becoming an Archmage of Goldnight while successfully hiding her curse from her teachers and mentors—until the night came when she couldn't contain the change any longer and she killed several hierarchs before her spark ignited and she found herself rampaging through the woods of another plane.

To her horror, she regained her senses in the morning—but not her human form. For better or worse, the experience of retaining her human mind in wolf form gave her a new appreciation for the wild spirit that shared her body. The only way she could return to her human form was to planeswalk back to Innistrad, but now she finds that she can control the transformation, in both directions, with relative ease. And though she is still horrified by the slaughter she wrought in the church, she is embracing the power she wields in wolf form as a natural complement to her magic.

Above all else, Arlinn is desperate to ensure the survival of her kind. She has come to think of herself as part of the pack. And in a world where Avacyn either cursemuted or killed hundreds of werewolves, and where the angel's church is launching a new inquisition more terrifying than anything they've done before, Arlinn fears that if she does not act, the lycanthropes of Innistrad could meet a very real and permanent end very soon.

[rubblekill]

While waiting for the maintenance: Arlinn Kord. She is Green for sure, but her lore sounds a bit dark so can even be GBx. Really exciting. I hope she's GBx and playable in Legacy by NicFit standards.


"Arlinn Kord is a tormented werewolf, originally from Avabruck, who has a gift unique among her kind: she is a Planeswalker.

Arlinn was a teenager when the howls of the Mondronen werewolf pack summoned her into the forest and she completed her First Hunt. She always fought against the change, and used Avacynian charms, prayers, and fasting to ward it off as much as possible. She even studied magic in the church, becoming an Archmage of Goldnight while successfully hiding her curse from her teachers and mentors—until the night came when she couldn't contain the change any longer and she killed several hierarchs before her spark ignited and she found herself rampaging through the woods of another plane.

To her horror, she regained her senses in the morning—but not her human form. For better or worse, the experience of retaining her human mind in wolf form gave her a new appreciation for the wild spirit that shared her body. The only way she could return to her human form was to planeswalk back to Innistrad, but now she finds that she can control the transformation, in both directions, with relative ease. And though she is still horrified by the slaughter she wrought in the church, she is embracing the power she wields in wolf form as a natural complement to her magic.

Above all else, Arlinn is desperate to ensure the survival of her kind. She has come to think of herself as part of the pack. And in a world where Avacyn either cursemuted or killed hundreds of werewolves, and where the angel's church is launching a new inquisition more terrifying than anything they've done before, Arlinn fears that if she does not act, the lycanthropes of Innistrad could meet a very real and permanent end very soon.

BTW if you need help or you have questions about MODO ask me (or Ricardio I'm sure) and we will try to help.
You still have to drop that 400 tho!

[Bobmans]

BTW if you need help or you have questions about MODO ask me (or Ricardio I'm sure) and we will try to help.
You still have to drop that 400 tho!
Thnx, much appreciated.

[helvetios]

Yes please! I really hope that werewolf planeswalker is playable in nic fit! From her backstory, I think she is likely to be gw (maybe naya, if they want to do more 3-color walkers now). I love werewolves and being able to play them with rhinos is one deck? That'd be a dream come true :eek:

[Ricardio]

BTW if you need help or you have questions about MODO ask me (or Ricardio I'm sure) and we will try to help.
You still have to drop that 400 tho!


Thnx, much appreciated.

WOAH! Volunteering me to help people? slow your roll there chief.

If you need anything, im here for you, man, bob.

[Warden]

I have never played MTGO, but what would it cost to get into MTGO and buy NicFit?
Unbelievable, can't even login.

*cough* Cockatrice *cough*

I think I want to take a different angle with Nic Fit this weekend: Natural Order. I've had success with it in Maverick, so it CAN be crammed into a green deck and work if implemented properly. I'm not sure if this should be exclusively SB material (3 NO, 2 additional targets) or if I should tweak the maindeck. The downside is vulnerability to countermagic and fast combo. If Mythic continues to polarize into a general "combo" vs "delver" meta, a NO plan could bring rain.

Ideal sequencing: turn 1/2 setup a dork + discard -> turn 3/4 NO into Sigarda (delver), Tusk/Ruric/Teeg (burn and combo), Progenitus (fair deck)
**There's some degree of cabal therapy/thoughtseize/surgical, sensei top in the middle of that.

If the NO doesn't come up, proceed to do Nic Fit things.
I would need to know what to cut from a standard Nic Fit shell. I'd likely trade the Painful Truths + meta/flex for a 5 card NO package.

====

Not sure if I'm reaching too far with this concept. It likely needs to be fleshed out more. I'd take this over Spiritmonger tbh. I can't think of a list or even color scheme. I don't own blue pieces but a while back Eli was successful with NO-BUG. I've done Maverick with NO in the side.

[Arianrhod]

*cough* Cockatrice *cough*

I think I want to take a different angle with Nic Fit this weekend: Natural Order. I've had success with it in Maverick, so it CAN be crammed into a green deck and work if implemented properly. I'm not sure if this should be exclusively SB material (3 NO, 2 additional targets) or if I should tweak the maindeck. The downside is vulnerability to countermagic and fast combo. If Mythic continues to polarize into a general "combo" vs "delver" meta, a NO plan could bring rain.

Ideal sequencing: turn 1/2 setup a dork + discard -> turn 3/4 NO into Sigarda (delver), Tusk/Ruric/Teeg (burn and combo), Progenitus (fair deck)
**There's some degree of cabal therapy/thoughtseize/surgical, sensei top in the middle of that.

If the NO doesn't come up, proceed to do Nic Fit things.
I would need to know what to cut from a standard Nic Fit shell. I'd likely trade the Painful Truths + meta/flex for a 5 card NO package.

====

Not sure if I'm reaching too far with this concept. It likely needs to be fleshed out more. I'd take this over Spiritmonger tbh. I can't think of a list or even color scheme. I don't own blue pieces but a while back Eli was successful with NO-BUG. I've done Maverick with NO in the side.

Dromoka is probably better vs Delver than Sigarda, by a lot. Sigarda would be the go-to vs Liliana decks, so like Shardless or Jund. Sketch it up and I'll give some thoughts. I'm also planning on posting my possible lists for Mythic by the end of the night.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, here's my lists for Mythic this weekend. With minimal alterations based on last minute testing (tomorrow and Friday), I'll be within a couple of cards of one of these lists:

Pasta Fit
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Matter Reshaper
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Toxic Deluge

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes

//sb
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Engineered Plague

Rhinos

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Glissa, the Traitor
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

//sb
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Engineered Plague

You can probably read between the lines and figure out some of my thought processes, especially considering sideboarding. Feel free to ask any questions, though, and I'll respond asap.

Bonus list:

I'm not going to play this at Mythic, at least not this month, but I've been slowly working on tinkering with an updated Herbert West list. I haven't touched it since Dig Through Time got banned, since I've been working on other versions, but someone asked me about it a week or two ago and I've been trying to update it since. So, for anyone interested, here's where I'm at on that front:

Herbert West
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Grave Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
1 Exhume
1 Unburial Rites

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Entomb

1 Batterskull

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island

//sb
1 Show and Tell
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Krosan Grip
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
1 Batterskull
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enjoy the lists :)

[Warden]

This is my current list.
=============
6 Veteran Explorer & Deathrite Shaman (4:2 or 3:3, undecided)

1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
/17

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
/10

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skeletal Scrying
/11

7 fetch
7 basic
6 duals
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
/22
========
I'm convinced I need Mr. Teeg in the main. Especially against a room of combo.
Not sure how to make this NO-compliant. My immediate cut is 2 Baneslayer, 1 Scrying (it's solid though), 1 deed...with room for Vindicate to move away (loving it though). That's 4-5 cuts while being 60. LMK your thoughts guys.

[Arianrhod]

I'm skeptical of how good Nissa is in your list. I've started to come to the opinion that Nissa is very good in two scenarios: when you're turboramping (ie Scapewish), and when you have a bunch of ways to recur her (Sun Titan, Meren, Nightmare, Volrath, etc). Since your list meets neither of these criteria, I'm not sure if you want to hang on to her at this point. If you added a Titan, Nightmare, or Volrath, I think she'd still be fine...2/4 ways to recur is okay, but 1/4 is significantly less likely, I feel.

If you're adding NO, you probably want 4 NO, Progenitals, and Dromoka. Cutting a Baneslayer for a Dromoka makes sense to me in this context. That's 2/6 slots open atm, counting the Nissa.

Your instincts are probably right that Scrying and Vindicate should leave. I'll come back to why I disagree with this course of action later, but for now, let's just make the slots. Not sure how I feel about maindeck Ooze in this list. He's probably one of the worst hateful cards to have vs Lands, and he's generally too slow for Reanimator (but is lights out when he hits). If you're adding NO, you shouldn't need Ooze as a mid-late bomb vs fair.dec. I think I would move him to the board here -- I know you like the card and I don't think that cutting it entirely is correct, but slots need to happen somewhere, and I don't like shaving a Deed at all. Deed is goddamn fantastic in that room. Cutting Ooze makes 5 slots.

Teeg doesn't play nicely with Natural Order, but I know he's kind of a sacred cow for you, so I'll just note that and move on. Honestly, I think the 6th cut is probably the 3rd Abrupt. Decay has been kind of mediocre lately, surprisingly, and that still leaves you with 3+2+3 maindeck removal options, and likely a couple more in the sideboard. Ruric can be boarded as an anti-combo NO target.

On a related topic: you might want to make room for a Dryad Arbor if you go down this road. Shaving a basic is probably where you want to look, although there are arguments for shaving the 7th fetch.

Now, here's my problems with this.

-) You love Gaddock. A lot of the combo decks in the room aren't particularly weak to him, I feel, but regardless, you're going to jam him and he's going to win you some games. Just the way things work. At the point you're adopting NO, you have 4+4 maindeck cards -- all of which comprise your entire tutor engine, mind -- that are turned off by Teeg. And while if you're in a Teeg matchup you generally don't want to be durdling, you need to remember that both tutors lead to swift clocks that can close out games before combo recovers, and NO, in particular, opens up an especially nasty piece of combo hate postboard in the form of Ruric Thar. In an ideal world you could curve Teeg into NO and laugh at the opponent, but that doesn't work here. Teeg ALSO is bad for Slaughter Games, although if you have the ability to NO->Thar, I'm not sure you even want the Slaughters at that point, so that's a moot consideration.

-) What's the gameplan of your deck right now? I look at this list, and I see a deck focused on being very grindy, with lots of removal and card advantage, but also a little bit of hate. This is a super fair deck, which expects opponents to fight fairly or be rendered to the point where they will do so. These types of decks typically have problems closing the game, which NO does help with. But how are you NOing? What are you feeding to it? Stray Deathrites and Veterans? Those cards don't typically stick around for long, for various reasons. You can't sac Teeg to it. E.Wit is fine, but then are you saccing Rhinos? Meren? Sigarda? Furthermore, WHEN are you NOing? Your early game is taken up with removal and ramp, while your midgame consists of Rhinos and angels. This leaves lategame, but at that point, you can just cast/Zenith up anything that you're NOing for outside of Progenitus.

These are my two main problems. There's some other little annoyances, like when you draw Progenitus, but you can always Therapy yourself if you have to.

Now, while I don't think that just jamming NO into your current list is a good idea, I do think that if we rewound and looked at the concept/philosophy of Natural Order as a card, we might be able to make something work.

Colors:

I do think that we want to stay GBW. Dromoka is the type of think you want to cheat on mana for, Sigarda is a card we always run anyway, and these colors give you the best fair game support.

Blue offers Brainstorm, which is nice, but injures your NO targets pretty harshly. Blue also has this obnoxious tendency to eat deck space, which the NO package is already going to do.

Red has some powerful NO targets, and is worth considering in a parallel build. You still can't really maindeck Ruric, but Broodmate Dragon is a fine bro, and you can go bigger if you want to -- something like DL.Atarka is a pretty enormous beating.

4 Veteran
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

Typical ramp core. Some people don't like Elder (I personally swear by him), but I think that he's very important here since he skips 2->4. I'd prefer a 2-mana dork that ramped as ETB, but we still don't have that, so, oh well.

4 Therapy
4 GSZ
4 NO

Therapies and tutors. Note that this is already 19 cards. We're halfway there, and don't even have targets yet.

Let's do white first:

1 Sigarda
1 DL.Dromoka
1 Progenitus

These three are mandatory, I think. Other interesting possibilities include:

Karador, Ghost Chieftain (amusingly you can just re-cast whatever you NO'd away)
Vorinclex (if you want to do hypermana things)
Hornet Queen (this could be sweet if we run Recurring Nightmare)
Avenger of Zendikar (worth remembering, but kind of ass when you NO into it because you get very few plants)
Elderscale Wurm (mostly because LOL BURN)
Foe-Razer Regent (probably the closest to NO'ing for removal that we're going to get, pretty shitty)
Garruk's Horde (quality card-advantage engine, but we do have extra non-creatures in our deck that are air)
Phantom Nishoba (enormous and has lifelink, but it shrinks with damage)
Protean Hulk (because that can of worms)
Sylvan Primordial (Nic Fit likes cards that are banned in EDH)
Trostani's Summoner (literal army in a can, also hilarious with Nightmare)

At this point, we can go a couple of different ways. Tokeny things have two very solid choices: Hornet Queen and Trostani's Summoner, both of which are strong with Nightmare. We want to be doing things with green token production anyway, to fuel Natural Order (probably involving Garruks), so let's work on that first. I do want to mess around with a Karador build, though, as well, because that also seems like it has potential. Protean Hulk could be a third variant, but that's more cancerous than I really feel like being at the moment.

1 Hornet Queen
1 Trostani's Summoner
1 Recurring Nightmare

25/39.

We want some token production and bodies that have ETB effect, as I just noted. Dreaming of saccing Explorers to NO is fine and all, but I don't want to rely on that.

2 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Garruk Relentless

32/39.

Backup plan:

3 Rhino
1 Meren

36/39.

Removal:

3 Deed
2 Deluge

41/39.

Card quality:

3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent

46/39. This is clearly too many cards, so let's pull it together and make some cuts.

We're making a lot of tokens and flooding the board, so let's back off on the Deluges. Rec Sage is good, but can be sideboarded readily. We can shave a Top, although I'm not thrilled with that. Hornet Queen and Summoner are both backups to Progenitus, who will almost always be the go-to first plan, so we don't need both of them. Shaving a Witness and a Finks gets us the rest of the way there. Let's add lands:

4 Veteran
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Rhino
1 Meren
1 Sigarda
1 DL.Dromoka
1 Trostani's Summoner
1 Progenitus

4 Therapy
4 GSZ
4 NO
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Library

2 Garruk Relentless

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Couldn't find room for Teeg, Nissa, or any of a couple of other things I wanted.

Let's throw together a red list. I'll Notepad my thought process for these because I feel like I'm running out of space.

4 Veteran
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Meren
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 DL.Atarka
1 Progenitus

4 Therapy
4 GSZ
4 NO

3 Punishing Fire

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Deed
1 Sylvan Library

2 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

Sample red list.

4 Veteran
2 DRS
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 DL.Atarka
1 Worldspine Wurm

4 Cabal Therapy
4 GSZ
3 Natural Order
2 Painful Truths

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sneak Attack
1 Sylvan Library

2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sample red list with Sneak Attack. There's probably more to be done with this -- I have a good feeling about it. Being able to alternatively NO->Worldspine OR Sneak->Worldspine seems like it could be very, very powerful. Sneak Attack with Meren or Volrath's Stronghold also seems like a valuable engine.

tl;dr: I can get behind the idea of a Natural Order variant, but I think it's that: a variant. Trying to ham-fist it into a list that's coming from a completely different philosophy on how to win a game is probably a recipe for disaster. Could be wrong, but, as always, it's my opinion -- however much you value that. Figure out what you personally want to be doing, and rebuild from scratch to suit.

[Brael]

Try a build with 10 fetch, 4 Vet Ex, 4 GSZ, 2 Diabolic Intent and if the mood hits you a Fierce Empath. Running 20/21 shuffle effects makes Courser good enough without the help of Top.

Also, Courser doesn't allow you to gain multiple life per turn as long as you can only play 1 land per turn.

Shardless remains a fine MU without Top. I have yet to get my first loss against it w/ my pile of madness.

Courser represents 2 life on turns you play a fetch, 1 to play and neutral to fetch leaving you at +1 rather than -1, a 2 point swing.

The big thing I want to try now is Faerie Macabre as my GY hate. When it's dead I can make it a creature and it has a great interaction with a low counter Meren. Has anyone tried this? My recent schedule is keeping me from weekly legacy night for another 2 months.

[Ricardio]

damn it arianr, hooked on phonix did not prepare me for all that.

[Echelon]

Well, if you want to go for NO it's recommended you run a bunch of creatures that are hard to kill or leave tokens when they die.

This also allows you to run 4 Diabolic Intent, increasing the number of Natural Orders you have in your deck.

Think of creatures like Young Wolf and Tukatongue Thallid.

To make more use of this you could run Stoneforge Mystics (as secondary angle of attack) w/ stuff like Batterskull and Grafted Wargear.

Equip the Wargear, creature dies and leaves another, dump the Wargear on that and just keep going.

Maybe add in Grim Haruspex as CA engine.

And Blood Artist + Phyrexian Altar as combo finish..? Some zombies and Gravecrawler could also do the trick. But that's probably another deck.

On a semi-serious note: Vault of the Archangel seems like a nice lategame haymaker oozing with The Danger Of Cool Things, TM. Wasteland is a bitch.

[Ralf]

@ Thread:

We have all tested NO at some point in our Nic Fit life...

The conclusion I drew so far is that you certainly want to catch your opponent off guard G2/G3.

I would definitely play a Reanimator Fit version (G1) that transforms into a solid NO plan for G2/G3.

Months/years ago I have posted in this very thread something close to the above. The list was very very raw and featured only G/B colors.

- Crop rotation (for phyrexian tower + Tabernacle for example to abuse veteran explorer triggers)
- Primeval Titan with Tespian's stage + Lage combo
- Reanimate + Entomb
- A few huge/utility beaters (Griselbrand, Massacre Wurm, Elderscale Wurm, Wurmcoil, Progenitus, Grave Titan) some of them as sideboard tool for the sideboard NO plan.
- And a few utility cards (1 Cavern of Souls, 1 Dryad arbor, 1 Sylvan caryathid, 1 Thragtusk etc...)
- A few discard spells (Therapy as a 2/3 of because space is rather tight and you have already plenty sac effect + entomb to get a free therapy)

The idea might be worth exploring again with all the new cards we have access to.

Here is an example of a sequence that happened once:
T1 -> Veteran
T2 -> Crop rot into Phyrexian Tower -> Sac Veteran + entomb for Primetime + Reanimate (with Pierce mana back up) -> Primetime fetching Lage Combo -> opponent conceded...

Welcome to Legacy Fit...

[Echelon]

The allure of Natural Order is that it's a single, 4 mana card that says "I win" (hyperboling a little bit here) without the need of any further setup.

That being said, Elves! is the best Natural Order deck there is. Natural Order Fit isn't consistent and fast enough to really be viable.

[Tokugawa]

The allure of Natural Order is that it's a single, 4 mana card that says "I win" (hyperboling a little bit here) without the need of any further setup.

That being said, Elves! is the best Natural Order deck there is. Natural Order Fit isn't consistent and fast enough to really be viable.

Agree.

To become the core card of a deck, NO must ensure a "I win", or at least a 90% "I win" first.

In Elves, NO into Behemoth usually kills the opponent immediately. So up to 4 copies of NO could work well in an Elves deck.

As a counter-example, rug NO decks was once the most popular DTB about 5 years ago. But today, it is completely wiped from the metagame. Its label even totally extinguished on websites like TCdecks.

Why? After the print of Terminus, Liliana and Griselbrand.etc, NO into Progenitus cannot ensure a "I win" anymore.

[Echelon]

Yup, a T2/3 Progenitus/Worldspine Wurm just isn't good enough anymore.

Powercreep..? What's that?

[Navsi]

How do you think NO matches up to Scapeshift in terms of 4-mana 'End the game' buttons? I'm tempted to try a 4-colour build in Reanimator style with NO in the sideboard and R in the main for Burning Wish into NO if the Reanimator plan doesn't go through / fetching Reanimate and Slaughter Games if needed.

Something like this?

11 Dudes:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 Witness
1 Nissa
1 Meren
1 Siege Rhino or Sigarda
1 Thrag

2 Big guys: (I think these two cover most matchups? Maybe something like Trostani's Summoner or Hornet Queen as a third choice)
1 Ruric Thar
1 Elderscale Wurm

19 Utility:
4 Zenith
3 Therapy
3 Burning Wish
3 SDT
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Entomb
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Reanimate

8 Removal:
3 Deed
3 Path
2 Decay

21 Non-Arbor lands: (14G/14B/12W/10R)
8 Fetch (Catacombs, Heath)
6 Basic (2 Forest 2 Swamp 1 Plains 1 Mountain)
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Taiga

SB:
3 Surgical
2 Needle
1 Reanimate
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Decay
2 Slaughter Games
2 Natural Order
1 Vindicate
1 Massacre
1 Innocent Blood

[Echelon]

Well, Scapeshift can win from an empty board state (creaturewise) and, more importantly, in the same turn it's cast. That makes it better than Natural Order.