[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

Rhino really changes the power level of the deck.

It pushes it over 9000.


@Echelon, do you always mulligan to get a Vet on Turn 1 or GSZ on T2?

What Matt said. You just want to make sure that when you have a Vet, you can actually cast it.

@matt: Clear out your messagebox, dammit! Lol.

[Plague Sliver]

Sigarda, Heron's Grace...

...got excited for it in Nic Fit until I realized she wasn't Human :frown:

[sdematt]

@Echelon

Cleared.

-Matt

[Echelon]

@Echelon

Cleared.

-Matt

Thank you very much, good sir.

[Ralf]

Hello
I wonder if there is still some good Abzan list with Birthing Pod , I'm really into start playing with Abzan Nic Fit

You could also try this, since I have worked on it for a few months:


1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Restoration Angel
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Veteran Explorer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Birthing Pod

3 Abrupt Decay

1 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Dryad Militant
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Abeyance
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben


Major changes were:
- Glissa to fight against Eldrazi
- Huntmaster took Redcap spot as he is better in a vacuum
- Enforcer to fight Marit.deck
- Abeyance is such a beating right now

Happy testing.

Ralf

Ps: I can also provide sideboard tables for almost 15 matchups.

[Jain_Mor]

@Ralf, Abeyance is interesting! What decks would you bring it in against? And how many times have you cast it in testing/real play?

Cause I notice it can screw over miracles triggers which is fun... But maybe too cute?

Thanks :)

[Echelon]

@Ralf, Abeyance is interesting! What decks would you bring it in against? And how many times have you cast it in testing/real play?

Cause I notice it can screw over miracles triggers which is fun... But maybe too cute?

Thanks :)

I'd start with ANT/TES. As soon as they cast discard/a tutor - OK, bye now. Try again next turn.

Magical Christmasland would be after they've cast Infernal Tutor and cracked LED.

[Dadadot]

Can somebody enlighten me concerning glissa? i don't get her usefulness. serious question.

[Echelon]

Can somebody enlighten me concerning glissa? i don't get her usefulness. serious question.

People hate Eldrazi. Eldrazi only sends in ground troops. She has first strike and deathtouch. Glissa > Eldrazi troops. Eldrazi do not run library manipulation and only a couple of Dismembers as a removal suite, so they have a hard time getting rid of her. This pleases people.

Don't get distracted by that chunk of reminder text under her keyword abilities. If she were a 1/1 honey badger with the same keyword abilities I'd run her all the same. This is a serious answer.

[Ralf]

@Ralf, Abeyance is interesting! What decks would you bring it in against? And how many times have you cast it in testing/real play?

Cause I notice it can screw over miracles triggers which is fun... But maybe too cute?

Thanks :)

Hello Jain,

We've been looking for some instant spells to backup hatebears in a junk fit build and to enable loads of nasty tricks.
The main reason was to add some reactive spells in a proactive shell to catch opponents off guard.

To be honest, it's been at least 10 years since the last time I played Abeyance in a Legacy deck.

The card can be used either reactively or proactively even if you'll use it mainly reactively.


The card is great against:

- Shardless (shardless trigger, ancestral vision last counter trigger, etc...)
- Miracle (Miracle trigger, Snapcaster trigger etc...)
- Storm (In response to IT, to discard to buy a turn etc...)


The card is average against:

- Elves (it buys you a turn when played at the end of opp's upkeep)
- Infect (same as above)

I think you'll be somehow amazed/amused how relevant abeyance could be in Legacy, these days, as it is usually never dead because you will always find a way to use it and at least it replaces itself.

[Navsi]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdv9OlWWoAAuTUH.png

How easy is it gonna be to get Delirium online? Because the payoff here looks really good.

[rubblekill]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdv9OlWWoAAuTUH.png

How easy is it gonna be to get Delirium online? Because the payoff here looks really good.

Do we really need more Rhinos in the deck?
We all know the answer.

[Echelon]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdv9OlWWoAAuTUH.png

How easy is it gonna be to get Delirium online? Because the payoff here looks really good.

Less easy than casting GSZ. It does get really close though. Maybe as a toy for the GBC Fit build. Early game it could fetch you a Wastes, lategame it turns into Reality Smasher.

Edit: rubble made me lol.

[Navsi]

It isn't restricted to green creatures or basic lands when it's live which seems pretty good. You might be right in the GBC lists, also getting Kozilek or something.

Think it might be good enough for the BUG lists? They have a lot of good nongreen creatures and no way to search for them, and Strixes, fetches and blue instants to enable Delirium with.

[Arianrhod]

I don't know that it's good enough right now, but it immediately replaces Oath of Nissa in the "future possibilities" box. I believe that Ancient Stirrings is probably better for the GBC version, although this can also get Primeval, at the cost not being able to get Cloudpost/Glimmerpost early.

For right now, I put it into the camp of "consider this if/when Top gets banned." It's also likely worse than the first Diabolic Intent, which most of us are not running at the moment.

[Nerubian]

I don't think this is better than Green Sun... but you can cast it with Teeg out :) Whereas, Teeg blocks GSZ from fetching Rhinos.

[Echelon]

For right now, I put it into the camp of "consider this if/when Top gets banned." It's also likely worse than the first Diabolic Intent, which most of us are not running at the moment.

I'm not even considering trading in my second Diabolic Intent for it. The ability to find a Deed/PtE has saved my ass too many times to give it up.

[Fatal]

Important note about Delirum which can be overlooked - You need to have 4 types of cards in YOUR graveyard. Not sure how good it will be, but some graveyard hate can be key solution to make those card useless.

[Echelon]

Important note about Delirum which can be overlooked - You need to have 4 types of cards in YOUR graveyard. Not sure how good it will be, but some graveyard hate can be key solution to make those card useless.

We can read too, you know. It's a problem in general, even before touching on graveyard hate. Or just using your DRS/Scavenging Ooze/Meren or, during the holidays, Karador.

[Fatal]

With GSZ around and Therapy self-exiled, it's really quite rare having 4 types in gy - most common in my GBC build:
- Land (enough)
- Creature (enough)
- Sorceries (4 Self-exiling, 4 GSZ - read non)
- Instants (3 MD/a lot of in SB)
- Enchantment (4 MD)
- Artifact (5 MD/where 2 of are creatures)
- Walkers (1-2 MD)

I think it can work in some BUG decks with Hymn to Tourach/Permission decks/Walker decks.

[Ricardio]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/soringrimnemesis.html

New Sorin 0_0 that +1 is great!

[rubblekill]

http://mythicspoiler.com/soi/cards/soringrimnemesis.html

New Sorin 0_0 that +1 is great!

Card advantage AND a win condition (we have 3 tops to manipulate our deck) while plusing And without using the battlefield (garruk/elspeth)? 6 mana is a lot but this seems better than elspeth against control?? Even easier on our mana.
Am I missing something? This seems good to me

E: he even defends himself against goyf / kills jace.

[Ricardio]

Card advantage AND a win condition (we have 3 tops to manipulate our deck) while plusing And without using the battlefield (garruk/elspeth)? 6 mana is a lot but this seems better than elspeth against control?? Even easier on our mana.
Am I missing something? This seems good to me

E: he even defends himself against goyf / kills jace.

AND his ult is summon the lost boys! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093437/

[NeckBird]

New Sorin is a very good one of in Junk Nic Fit. Definitely going to test him.

[dave78pdx]

Card advantage and a finisher. Top/Sylvan in to Sigarda, Baneslayer, Rhino, Titan, then +1 on Sorin. Or, -X when you're low on life. Third ability? As if we would ever need it! :tongue:

[rubblekill]

Card advantage and a finisher. Top/Sylvan in to Sigarda, Baneslayer, Rhino, Titan, then +1 on Sorin. Or, -X when you're low on life. Third ability? As if we would ever need it! :tongue:

Yes. The key part is that he does not use the battlefield to win, plus he gives ca.
This might replace elspeth: she only is better cmc wise, but her soldiers are still weak to removal and terminus.

[Jain_Mor]

He's a vraska / Ob Nixilis with a much better wincon for 1 more mana. (He comes down and kills Jace!) I'm gnna try him for sure

@Ralf, yea I'm a fan of the hatebear plan against the combo decks, and I'm always looking for sideboard cards that overlap with miracles, shame you haven't done testing with it yet, but I'll give it a go at some point and let you know what I find

[Ralf]

He's a vraska / Ob Nixilis with a much better wincon for 1 more mana. I'm Gnna try him sure

@Ralf, yea I'm a fan of the hatebear plan against the combo decks, and I'm always looking for sideboard cards that overlap with miracles, shame you haven't done testing with it yet, but I'll give it a go at some point and let you know what I find

Maybe I wasn't clear.

I did test it so that's why it is in my SB now :cool:

[Bobmans]

Oe, i like that new Sorin.
It shoots down Jace.
It gives extra reach on top of Rhino. Juicy lucy.

[Jain_Mor]

Maybe I wasn't clear.

I did test it so that's why it is in my SB now :cool:

Oh awesome, I asked how many times you've cast it in testing or real play and the only time you mentions was 10 years ago :P

Is it actually "great" against shardless? It counters suspended visions but shardless agent can just hit a creature and then it doesn't do anything. I get that it cantrips but there's still a mana investment there.

I am sold on it against various combo decks (buying a turn and digging for answers against elves is legit)

If it actually starts doing work as a counterspell against miracles then I'll really be sold :)

[Ralf]

Oh awesome, I asked how many times you've cast it in testing or real play and the only time you mentions was 10 years ago :P

Is it actually "great" against shardless? It counters suspended visions but shardless agent can just hit a creature and then it doesn't do anything. I get that it cantrips but there's still a mana investment there.

I am sold on it against various combo decks (buying a turn and digging for answers against elves is legit)

If it actually starts doing work as a counterspell against miracles then I'll really be sold :)

I didn't count the number of games we did...

Was just saying it's been 10 years since the last time I've played with Abeyance in a Legacy deck.

Anyway, the card is "average" to "outstanding" so far. Obviously preventing a miracle spell from being cast is like "saving" the cheerleader !

To be honest we have also considered "Orim's chant" as well but finally elected Abeyance:
- The kick cost could also be handy against aggro deck but requires WW
- 1 CMC is easier than 2 CMC (especially against combo)
- But the fact that Abeyance is at least a cantrip was the edge we were looking for.

So far the card is great against combo & control and almost dead against aggro. But we usually have a not so bad matchup against aggro deck to begin with.

Test it and tell me what you think !

[Jain_Mor]

Yea I like the theory, I was trying something similar previously with hallowed moonlight.. Works against many combo decks and entreat, but I found holding up mana really awkward.

But countering terminus is something moonlight couldn't do, so I will be testing this

Also, who is "we" :P is there a secret Ralf nic fit playgroup, or are you talking about other players on the source?

Edit: this is a question for everyone on MODO, are there any legacy testing clans online? Like is there anywhere I can go to find players to test with / against online?

[Brael]

With GSZ around and Therapy self-exiled, it's really quite rare having 4 types in gy - most common in my GBC build:
- Land (enough)
- Creature (enough)
- Sorceries (4 Self-exiling, 4 GSZ - read non)
- Instants (3 MD/a lot of in SB)
- Enchantment (4 MD)
- Artifact (5 MD/where 2 of are creatures)
- Walkers (1-2 MD)

I think it can work in some BUG decks with Hymn to Tourach/Permission decks/Walker decks.

I agree that BUG seems the natural fit here. Strix is an easy way to get another type with artifact and land/creature are easy. So the only real issue is if you can get another type. Sorcery is out because Therapy exilies and GSZ doesn't go to the GY, but Instant is probably doable, moving away from Pulse and towards more instant removal could do it.

Actually, BUG has a big problem with GSZ frequently clashing with it because of the need for Green creatures while BUG really pushes you towards blue. I think this card could fully replace GSZ in BUG builds. Personally, I really like the idea of using this to find Snapcaster/Eternal Witness, casting that, and then getting the tutor back to find something again.

[ironclad8690]

Yea I like the theory, I was trying something similar previously with hallowed moonlight.. Works against many combo decks and entreat, but I found holding up mana really awkward.

But countering terminus is something moonlight couldn't do, so I will be testing this

Also, who is "we" :P is there a secret Ralf nic fit playgroup, or are you talking about other players on the source?

Edit: this is a question for everyone on MODO, are there any legacy testing clans online? Like is there anywhere I can go to find players to test with / against online?

I don't know of any testing clans, but let's start one.

I have shardless bug and bug delver (hymn version). My username on there is Adelorenzi. I can usually test in the mornings (pacific time)

[Echelon]

That new Sorin looks pretty neat.

I might have to give my Summoner's Egg build another go. +1 Sorin into Emrakul. EDH..? Nah, welcome to the thunderdome, bitch.

And yes, I know what Erratic Explosion is and that I'm magical christmaslanding ad absurdum. Just let me have this one, ok..?

[sdematt]

I don't see a problem with Sorin. At 2BW he's obviously busted to hell, but I honestly think they could have pushed him at 5 mana.

+1 is obviously good since you can stack stuff with Tops, and you get more cards. How's about putting Rhino into your hand, then casting it later? Jeez.

-X kills a Jace that's been on the field for one turn. It's no Vraska -3 for sure, but it's also removal. It's a 6-mana nug 6, gain 6 at the very least, and it's future crowd control if you play it into a wiped board. Plus, life gain. Moar lifegains.

-9 is probably irrelevant. I would have preferred something else for sure.

Overall, he's worth at least TRYING. Against Miracles he seems insane, especially if you're still on the Carpet plan and are powering him out. Dat card advantage engine sure is sweet.

-Matt

[sdematt]

Also, I still have a hard-on for Garruk Apex Predator, but 7 mana is insane. I'd pay 5 for him, gladly. Even at 1GGBB.

-Matt

[Echelon]

Also, I still have a hard-on for Garruk Apex Predator, but 7 mana is insane. I'd pay 5 for him, gladly. Even at 1GGBB.

-Matt

It's always nice to hear what gives another man his hard-on. Thank you for sharing.

[Ricardio]

That new Sorin looks pretty neat.

I might have to give my Summoner's Egg build another go. +1 Sorin into Emrakul. EDH..? Nah, welcome to the thunderdome, bitch.

And yes, I know what Erratic Explosion is and that I'm magical christmaslanding ad absurdum. Just let me have this one, ok..?

Haha you and that damn egg have a weird relationship.


Also, I still have a hard-on for Garruk Apex Predator, but 7 mana is insane. I'd pay 5 for him, gladly. Even at 1GGBB.

-Matt

yeah, I wish he weren't so much mana or atleast one of his abilities wasn't borderline useless.


It's always nice to hear what gives another man his hard-on. Thank you for sharing.

You gotta know what they like so you can give the best holiday present since most of us live in magical Christmas land.

[uncletiggy]

I hear matt likes porsche's maybe you can get the whole thread one for christmas ricardo?

[sdematt]

Or getting Siege Rhinos altered into Cobras like in Age of Empires II. ;)

[Warden]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdv9OlWWoAAuTUH.png

How easy is it gonna be to get Delirium online? Because the payoff here looks really good.

This is actually hard. Deed, Removal (instant/sorc), fetchlands, creatures...the potential is there. The payoff is actually bonkers: you go from basic land to 1 of any land/creature of your choice. That's a tremendous payoff for G w/ the delirium trigger.

I'm conflicted on Sorin. His abilities are like EVERYTHING you could want.
+1: card advantage, possibly close out games off lifeloss
-X: defends himself, removes PWers
Ult: win the game, insult your opponent with the lifeswing

...but he costs a fucking ton of mana. If he's in your list, chances are you'll need him. And if you need him, you'll need 6 mana. I can't see myself relying on a 6 drop. Nic Fit would have to ramp more and more. And if you're ramping as a core strategy, wouldn't you just play Burning Wish --> Scapeshift kill?

[Ricardio]

This is actually hard. Deed, Removal (instant/sorc), fetchlands, creatures...the potential is there. The payoff is actually bonkers: you go from basic land to 1 of any land/creature of your choice. That's a tremendous payoff for G w/ the delirium trigger.

I'm conflicted on Sorin. His abilities are like EVERYTHING you could want.
+1: card advantage, possibly close out games off lifeloss
-X: defends himself, removes PWers
Ult: win the game, insult your opponent with the lifeswing

...but he costs a fucking ton of mana. If he's in your list, chances are you'll need him. And if you need him, you'll need 6 mana. I can't see myself relying on a 6 drop. Nic Fit would have to ramp more and more. And if you're ramping as a core strategy, wouldn't you just play Burning Wish --> Scapeshift kill?

I agree with the traverse part but I disagree with the second half. So often I have the 5 mana to gsz for rhino or 6 for sigarda/rhino around daze.
6 mana is attainable in a non-combo mu setting. I think this card has what we need. Losing to jace feels bad and he deals with that. the added CA off his +1 that ALSO pressures your opponents life is amazing. I will be getting this card as soon as possible online to test. we are a midrange control deck and Sorin looks to be our Grim Ally in the fight against blue decks and they stupid patriarch, Miracles.

[rubblekill]

This is actually hard. Deed, Removal (instant/sorc), fetchlands, creatures...the potential is there. The payoff is actually bonkers: you go from basic land to 1 of any land/creature of your choice. That's a tremendous payoff for G w/ the delirium trigger.

I'm conflicted on Sorin. His abilities are like EVERYTHING you could want.
+1: card advantage, possibly close out games off lifeloss
-X: defends himself, removes PWers
Ult: win the game, insult your opponent with the lifeswing

...but he costs a fucking ton of mana. If he's in your list, chances are you'll need him. And if you need him, you'll need 6 mana. I can't see myself relying on a 6 drop. Nic Fit would have to ramp more and more. And if you're ramping as a core strategy, wouldn't you just play Burning Wish --> Scapeshift kill?

How much mana do you usually spend to pump out a GSZ'd rhino or sigarda? 5/6.
When do I want to board in PWs? Against slow/control matchups, especially miracles.
How reliably do we reach 5-6 mana in those very matchups? Very reliably because we have more time.
Did we need a PW that could win without using the battlefield AT ALL against miracles? Yes.

The card feels very, very interesting to me. Garruk and Elspeth rely on a battlefield; Ajani Mentor (the worst PW of choice, imo) is even more obsolete now with new Sorin. This guy can actually close games alone. So does JTMS, but he is blue. And rhinos aren't blue.

E: Lol Ricardio, you were faster but it seems like we think alike. That worries me, I can't deny that :laugh:

[uncletiggy]

Or getting Siege Rhinos altered into Cobras like in Age of Empires II. ;)

I still think rhinos and tusks should be bebop and rocksteady. sigarda can be april O'Neil thrun as master splinter. explorers as the turtles and deathrites as the foot. or some such nonsense...

[Jaytron]

I still think rhinos and tusks should be bebop and rocksteady. sigarda can be april O'Neil thrun as master splinter. explorers as the turtles and deathrites as the foot. or some such nonsense...
This makes me want to build Junk Nic Fit over BUG. Bebop and Rocksteady.

I wish I could alter

[Gheizen64]

Sorin seems pretty busted in control MUs. The only problem i see there is that he ain't a creature so you can't cavern it, but other than that, he win without using the battlefield, is extremely hard to remove for most decks, and can remove most other decks win conditions. Plus he win through almost everything, including things like Bridge, Chasm, Energy Field, Solitary confinement, Stasis locks or whatever you want etc...

That traverse the Unvenwald is good but i wouldn't play more than 1 of it. You have issues getting sorceries in your graveyard early on especially. And you don't want to play Lay of the Land.

[Ricardio]

How much mana do you usually spend to pump out a GSZ'd rhino or sigarda? 5/6.
When do I want to board in PWs? Against slow/control matchups, especially miracles.
How reliably do we reach 5-6 mana in those very matchups? Very reliably because we have more time.
Did we need a PW that could win without using the battlefield AT ALL against miracles? Yes.

The card feels very, very interesting to me. Garruk and Elspeth rely on a battlefield; Ajani Mentor (the worst PW of choice, imo) is even more obsolete now with new Sorin. This guy can actually close games alone. So does JTMS, but he is blue. And rhinos aren't blue.

E: Lol Ricardio, you were faster but it seems like we think alike. That *EXCITES* me, I can't deny that :laugh:

fixed: you are welcome. haha
Also Mentor is not the worst one, h8r, albeit Garruk and Elspeth are much better.


Sorin seems pretty busted in control MUs. The only problem i see there is that he ain't a creature so you can't cavern it, but other than that, he win without using the battlefield, is extremely hard to remove for most decks, and can remove most other decks win conditions. Plus he win through almost everything, including things like Bridge, Chasm, Energy Field, Solitary confinement, Stasis locks or whatever you want etc...

That traverse the Unvenwald is good but i wouldn't play more than 1 of it. You have issues getting sorceries in your graveyard early on especially. And you don't want to play Lay of the Land.

Sorin is a bomb. We either bait with him for something better or bait for him with something weaker. OR WE JUST THERAPY THAT SOB INTO THE STONE AGE!
Traverse would be a 1 or 2 of that you really only want to resolve with delirium. Otherwise, casters beware. that shit aint good.

[Nithkar]

What do you guys think of Traverse the Unvenwald as a one of in the sideboard? As our quasi enlighted tutor for our hatebears and karakas? Maybe we even get to play with some tidehollow skuller or sin collector (or mindslicer in the magical Christmas land)? I mean, post sideboard we get thougtseizes to up our sorcery count and surgicals for instants.

Other thing i want to ask is: if both sorin and traverse prove to be worth of the board, will it be the time to give STE the love Arianrhod always advocated for?

Enviado de meu XT1225 usando Tapatalk

[Echelon]

Haha you and that damn egg have a weird relationship.

...

You gotta know what they like so you can give the best holiday present since most of us live in magical Christmas land.

The Egg and I have a history together. The oldest list I still have dates back to 2007. I believe the initial list is even older. The whole concept started before Summoner's Egg was printed, just after the release of the Onslaught block (so that's like late 2002, early 2003). In the beginning I made do with Nantuko Husk, Pattern of Rebirth and Symbiotic Wurm until I figured out Patterning into Akroma, Angel of Wrath was an easier way to win games. We've had some fun adventures, one of my favorites being this one from a Legacy Monthly last year (vs. BUG Delver):
Me: "Sac Summoner's Egg to Phyrexian Tower. Trigger?"
Opponent: "Sure"
Me: "Alrighty. *flips card underneath the Egg* There's Emrakul"
Me: "Tap 5 more mana (1 land left untapped), cast Elesh Norn?"
Opponent: Scoops.

That turned some heads, lol. It also had someone crying out they didn't know they'd be playing EDH.

As for the second part - now you know what gets me going, lol.

[Jain_Mor]

Nothing impressive here, just sharing the feel good vibes :)

So I finally had the opportunity to check out my local legacy scene in Swansea, Wales at their monthly legacy FNM (I think there's about 4 locations in the UK that regurarly host legacy events and I just happened to move to one of them (still not quite the daily events I was used to in Japan.. :/ ))

They had about 20 players and I crushed, it felt good to play with paper cards again.
2-0 Merfolk (Had to cast the same deed 3 times in G1 before it resolved (thank you ewit (thank you Meren and 9 mana))
2-0 Maverick with Titania (Terrifying but deed still wins)
2-0 Shardless (Deed and Meren recurring Thragtusk with a SoFaI to get past Strixes)
2-0 Parfait (Deeded 5 permanents and equipment beats humility, G2 recurring Rec sage with the two towers beats everything and teeg stops him from casting humility to stop it)

Highlight was casting Siege Rhino game 1 against Merfolk, opponents mouth drops, so I decide to announce it loudly to the store "I CAST SIEGE RHINO" everyone turns in confusion and curiosity. My matches always went long so I always had a crowd to watch Rhino victorys.

Now I'm known as "that new guy that wins legacy with siege rhino" though I'm sure we are all used to similar monikers, I'm just happy to have earnt it again so quickly at my new LGS :P

[Echelon]

Highlight was casting Siege Rhino game 1 against Merfolk, opponents mouth drops, so I decide to announce it loudly to the store "I CAST SIEGE RHINO" everyone turns in confusion and curiosity. My matches always went long so I always had a crowd to watch Rhino victorys.

Now I'm known as "that new guy that wins legacy with siege rhino" though I'm sure we are all used to similar monikers, I'm just happy to have earnt it again so quickly at my new LGS :P

Yeah, that does sound very familiar. Nice job man!

[Koplinchen]

Hi fellow Nic Fit people!

I know most of you are on the JUNK version of the deck but I fell in love with this beauty:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk

4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truth
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

22lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain


Side:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Slaughter Games
2 From the Ashes

This is Matt's deck. I only replaced 2 dragons with Titania which has been amazing and Diabolic Intent which is wonderful here. (searches Liliana, Grove...) Then I cut Thrun going down to 60 and I changed sideboard a bit. Blasts and From the Ashes are a real stars here - FtA brings the lands into play untapped which is amazing!

basic comparasion with junk version:
+
Punishing Fire - makes sure we can kill pws, can grind opponent down without a shadow of doubt, good with lili, you can kill your Veteran!
Liliana - discard + kill; more control
Titania - finishes games on the spot, tutorable, the only realy clock
Huntmaster - almost like and plainswalker - with fire and top in the mid/late game he is an engine on his own
Blasts - improve our control and combo matchups

-
cant outrace opponent in the early game (no rhinos)
dont have Path to Exile so Dark Depths is a problem
cant tutor for art/ench removal
no gaddock
no way how to kill a land


I would love to know what is your experience with the deck and if you have any ideas that can help me. I think it is a wonderful deck for everybody that wants to control and grind out your opponent. :-)

Tomáš

[Jain_Mor]

Hi fellow Nic Fit people!

I know most of you are on the JUNK version of the deck but I fell in love with this beauty:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk

4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truth
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

22lands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain


Side:

3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Slaughter Games
2 From the Ashes

Tomáš

I have to admit that's the sexiest Jund list I've seen so far, almost makes me want to try it... Except LotV costs a boat load online and for some reason I can't throw my real ones at my laptop screen and have them appear in my modo account -.-

[sdematt]

This is something that Tomas and I have been working on...well, him working, me answering questions ;) In case you don't realize, Tomas Vlcek is the basically an Eastern European Shonegger, just not as tall ;)

If you really hate Liliana, change it to 1x Garruk Relentless and 1x Painful Truths.

[Jain_Mor]

This is something that Tomas and I have been working on...well, him working, me answering questions ;) In case you don't realize, Tomas Vlcek is the basically an Eastern European Shonegger, just not as tall ;)

If you really hate Liliana, change it to 1x Garruk Relentless and 1x Painful Truths.

Lol no one in this thread hates lotv? She's just a real expensive date... Maybe some of us can group share..

I guess as a two of she isn't that integral to the deck. I'll check prices of the other cards later, cheers

[Tom4ik]

Lol no one in this thread hates lotv? She's just a real expensive date... Maybe some of us can group share..

I guess as a two of she isn't that integral to the deck. I'll check prices of the other cards later, cheers

Liliana is integral to the Jund fire decks. When I played it I played 3. It is a great proactive 3 drop which is something the deck wants when you have the therapy vet starts and with fire it is the best way to control the game. You can replace it as Matt said with some other options but you will be missing one of the main advantages that the deck gets.

[Ricardio]

that jund list looks especially weak to removal. When I played punishing jund fit, I ran 2 huntmaster, 1 prime time, 1 broodmate.
You might want to go down on removal since you have pfire and find yourself more threats so you can win the game in real time.

[Arianrhod]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_ZfmLqEz6Ay.png

Potentially relevant 3-drop for us. Turns landfall into card draw with excess mana, which is something we're interested in. It will need tested for sure, not confidant in how good it is just from reading the card, but I could see it.

If the image goes down:

Tireless Tracker
2g
3/2

Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, investigate.
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.

[Navsi]

@Tireless Tracker

The big problem I see with him is that there are already a lot of good midrangey utility 3-drops that compete. Mainly Nissa, Witness, Courser, sometimes Reclamation Sage, KOTR and Wood Elves. I don't know if he gets the nod over Courser for the maindeck.

Maybe in a landfall-focused shell like the one a few pages back with Mina and Denn, Titania and Courser? The deck kind of wants to overextend its board position, so having fuel to rebuild could be good for the deck.

[Ricardio]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_ZfmLqEz6Ay.png

Potentially relevant 3-drop for us. Turns landfall into card draw with excess mana, which is something we're interested in. It will need tested for sure, not confidant in how good it is just from reading the card, but I could see it.

If the image goes down:

Tireless Tracker
2g
3/2

Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, investigate.
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.

It feels like some kind of weird annihilator protection. I wish it were more aggressively costed. Feels super meh.

[Koplinchen]

that jund list looks especially weak to removal. When I played punishing jund fit, I ran 2 huntmaster, 1 prime time, 1 broodmate.
You might want to go down on removal since you have pfire and find yourself more threats so you can win the game in real time.

Thank you for your reply Ricardo. I must say I only got inot time once and it was not my fault all that very much. This decks takes a few more turns to depelate your oppnent resources and then you go for Meren or Titania. Not just Therapy but lili mean that opponent does not have too many answers. And at first your really kill everything he has and THEN you attack. Meren can bring some dead guys back (Phyrexian Tower helps against Swords to Plowshares a lot) and we still have Eternal Witness backup. Titania often does not ca too much about removal as she just wins. I am happy that all the removal makes all the delver/such matchups really really good. (I know its already good but sometimes even my deck dies to unanswered delver which I hate)

I was only thinking about Dryad Arbor but that is probably not worth it, right?
Did you play some special lands with GTitan? Stronghold? Was it worth it?


I think one of the greatest strenghts of this deck is that we are basicaly BG deck and we can work well without red. (3Fires and Huntmaster who comes in via GSZ anyway)

I dont think it is anything new to you but loose horribly to Cataclysm (Jund more than Junk) and so I started to side in 1 Slaughter Games and is has been incredible.


Tomáš

[Koplinchen]

This is something that Tomas and I have been working on...well, him working, me answering questions ;) In case you don't realize, Tomas Vlcek is the basically an Eastern European Shonegger, just not as tall ;).

I am happy with my 189cm. Most men would be. :P

[rubblekill]

Thank you for your reply Ricardo. I must say I only got inot time once and it was not my fault all that very much. This decks takes a few more turns to depelate your oppnent resources and then you go for Meren or Titania. Not just Therapy but lili mean that opponent does not have too many answers. And at first your really kill everything he has and THEN you attack. Meren can bring some dead guys back (Phyrexian Tower helps against Swords to Plowshares a lot) and we still have Eternal Witness backup. Titania often does not ca too much about removal as she just wins. I am happy that all the removal makes all the delver/such matchups really really good. (I know its already good but sometimes even my deck dies to unanswered delver which I hate)

I was only thinking about Dryad Arbor but that is probably not worth it, right?
Did you play some special lands with GTitan? Stronghold? Was it worth it?


I think one of the greatest strenghts of this deck is that we are basicaly BG deck and we can work well without red. (3Fires and Huntmaster who comes in via GSZ anyway)

I dont think it is anything new to you but loose horribly to Cataclysm (Jund more than Junk) and so I started to side in 1 Slaughter Games and is has been incredible.


Tomáš

Arbor seems good with meren and especially with titania imo. You loop a blocker with meren and with tower (or even deed incidentally) and Titania you can do some nice shenanigans. This relates to jund, but to this you should add the other reasons why arbor is nice to have even outside jund: tricks lilianas edict, gives a free desperate outlet to flashback therapy etc.

[Ricardio]

Thank you for your reply Ricardo. I must say I only got inot time once and it was not my fault all that very much. This decks takes a few more turns to depelate your oppnent resources and then you go for Meren or Titania. Not just Therapy but lili mean that opponent does not have too many answers. And at first your really kill everything he has and THEN you attack. Meren can bring some dead guys back (Phyrexian Tower helps against Swords to Plowshares a lot) and we still have Eternal Witness backup. Titania often does not ca too much about removal as she just wins. I am happy that all the removal makes all the delver/such matchups really really good. (I know its already good but sometimes even my deck dies to unanswered delver which I hate)

I was only thinking about Dryad Arbor but that is probably not worth it, right?
Did you play some special lands with GTitan? Stronghold? Was it worth it?


I think one of the greatest strenghts of this deck is that we are basicaly BG deck and we can work well without red. (3Fires and Huntmaster who comes in via GSZ anyway)

I dont think it is anything new to you but loose horribly to Cataclysm (Jund more than Junk) and so I started to side in 1 Slaughter Games and is has been incredible.


Tomáš

Titania and Sylvan safekeeper is probably where you wanna be.
I didn't play arbor in my build solely because I didn't have space.
Grave titan is amazing but you cant tutor him so I ran primeval titan alongside thrun, kessig wolf run and stronghold
Huntmaster is amamaamamazing. I just got a foil German signed one for $50 which I consider a steeeeeeeal!
Another card to jam in your sb: Ruination. totally hilarious in a lot of matchups, like a one sided Armageddon.
Loam might be a good place since getting groves wasted is obnoxious.

[sdematt]

Titania and Sylvan safekeeper is probably where you wanna be.
I didn't play arbor in my build solely because I didn't have space.
Grave titan is amazing but you cant tutor him so I ran primeval titan alongside thrun, kessig wolf run and stronghold
Huntmaster is amamaamamazing. I just got a foil German signed one for $50 which I consider a steeeeeeeal!
Another card to jam in your sb: Ruination. totally hilarious in a lot of matchups, like a one sided Armageddon.
Loam might be a good place since getting groves wasted is obnoxious.

From the Ashes is strictly better Ruination

[Ricardio]

From the Ashes is strictly better Ruination

I had no idea that was a card, Matt, if that is in fact your real name.

[Bobmans]

Arbor compliments Meren. It enables a lot of techy lines. For example; DRS/VetEx in the yard, Untapped PTower or Therapy in hand/yard and you have an untapped fetch. Drop Meren, fetch Arbor, sac it, pass to eot and flip DRS/VetEx. This enables a very quick launch of Merens capability and puts up a blockade.
Also you can get Arbor down more aggresive so you have something to wall immediatly when you get Meren.
Arbor on its end also enables some 'extra' lines on the early turns. T1 GSZ into Arbor enables some added lines. Also it turns fetchlands into Therapy fodder.
That it dies to Deed can be annoying, but Arbor is always there to die for the cause. But the JUND manabase doesnt feel it is able to support Arbor. Running 4 Groves is really important to get Pfire online more effective. Also i found 4 PFire to be the best so it always shows up and gives the ability to play aggresive on removal. But design space kind of forces it to 3.

Liliana is a musthave in JUND since it also adds reach to get rid of creatures out of Decay and Pfire range. On overall i dislike Deluge since that card hit to much of our own. I played 3 and tried 2. Overall the conlusion was that with 2 it didnt show up often enough.

The list you posted Tomas, feels very soft int the high CMC end of the creatures. Imho this is the weakspot of JUND lists.
PrimeTime is still the best option for the deck, but that would require either Two Tower or a Kessig/P.Tower split.
I still swear by Stormbreath Dragon, especially because Haste and Pro White are so much relevant. 2 copies to compensate the loss of GSZable.

Painful Truth's feels somewhat awkward in this lists. I really want to play some but it doesnt feel right. Not sure how others feel about PTruths in JUND.

I am actually suprised not to find at least 1 Kolghan's Command in the 75. It is a really strong card vs StoneBlade decks. And in other case the card is a 2 for 1. Every mode is/can be relevant.

Lastly, Diabolic Intent might not be to effective since the JUND lists are so light on creatures.

I love JUND lists, but i still need and excuse to run it over JUND 4 Rhino. The latter is soo tuned and plays so smooth.
My question is, what draws you to this list?
Good and nice to see more interest into it.

[sdematt]

I had no idea that was a card, Matt, if that is in fact your real name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JYJhWIwGUw

;)


I am happy with my 189cm. Most men would be. :P

I'm happy with my 173cm. Sometimes, it's also about the girth and not just the height ;0

[Ricardio]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JYJhWIwGUw

;)



I'm happy with my 173cm. Sometimes, it's also about the girth and not just the height ;0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZaJYDPY-YQ

[jbone2016]

I had no idea that was a card, Matt, if that is in fact your real name.

Hell, I had it my sideboard of my junk list (along with the 2 slaughter games). It did wonderful things.

[Echelon]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_ZfmLqEz6Ay.png

Potentially relevant 3-drop for us. Turns landfall into card draw with excess mana, which is something we're interested in. It will need tested for sure, not confidant in how good it is just from reading the card, but I could see it.

If the image goes down:

Tireless Tracker
2g
3/2

Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control, investigate.
Whenever you sacrifice a Clue, put a +1/+1 counter on ~.

I think it warrants further... investigation.

Even though it's a fragile thing it could provide quite some value in the late game. It even works incredibly well with Courser of Kruphix. Draw a land off the top, gain a life. If you want the top card, draw it with the clue. Fetchlands gain even more value, especially when combining the two. We'll just have a hard time protecting it though, even though it grows with every clue you sacrifice. And I'm wondering what to cut for it. The first candidate would be the highest CMC card in the deck (provided you run something that's bigger than Sigarda).

Edit: I could see the following build:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Glissa, the Traitor
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Painful Truths
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 New Sorin

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

Lots of meat (i.e. pressure), 2 GSZ'able CA engines (or 3 if you count Meren) and a CA engine that can double as top end kill condition/planeswalker killer. Meren, Dryad Arbor & Phyrexian Tower make a nice draw engine if you have the Tracker out (and also turns the Tracker into a real clock quickly). It also has GSZ'able creature removal (of sorts) in Glissa and (easily loopable) GSZ'able artifact/enchantment removal in the form of Pridemage.

It might be worth it to include a Wood Elves to help power out Big Sorin whilst adding some extra synergy with Tracker. I'm going to have a hard time cutting a card though.

[Ricardio]

no abrupt decays? that's insane. I assume you also do Sudoku with a pen and throw your recyclables in the trash.

[Bobmans]

no abrupt decays? that's insane. I assume you also do Sudoku with a pen and throw your recyclables in the trash.
Lol Ricardio, you really missed it.

[Ricardio]

Lol Ricardio, you really missed it.

just skimmed through your post again, no mention of abrupt decay. I bet you don't put on sun tan lotion when you go to the beach. No abupt decays in a GBx deck? that's like riding a unicycle on the Autobon, your gonna have a bad time.

[Arianrhod]

just skimmed through your post again, no mention of abrupt decay. I bet you don't put on sun tan lotion when you go to the beach. No abupt decays in a GBx deck? that's like riding a unicycle on the Autobon, your gonna have a bad time.

I mean, I've also been skimping on Decays lately. The card just hasn't felt that good, especially for my meta.

[Bobmans]

just skimmed through your post again, no mention of abrupt decay. I bet you don't put on sun tan lotion when you go to the beach. No abupt decays in a GBx deck? that's like riding a unicycle on the Autobon, your gonna have a bad time.
No you missed that he hasn't played AD at all at least for a long time.

[rubblekill]

And here I am, thinking AD is one of the best cards in the deck :eyebrow:

[Gheizen64]

http://i.imgur.com/EhOLWUr.png

This was so close to playable imho. It's essentially an O-ring that don't kill emrakul and always 2-for-1 yourself. Had it costed 1W or had it been an instant it would've been a cute sacrifice enabler for Nic Fit.

[Bobmans]

http://i.imgur.com/EhOLWUr.png


Bad card. I'll take that new vindicate anytime over this.

[Koplinchen]

Arbor compliments Meren. It enables a lot of techy lines. For example; DRS/VetEx in the yard, Untapped PTower or Therapy in hand/yard and you have an untapped fetch. Drop Meren, fetch Arbor, sac it, pass to eot and flip DRS/VetEx. This enables a very quick launch of Merens capability and puts up a blockade.
Also you can get Arbor down more aggresive so you have something to wall immediatly when you get Meren.
Arbor on its end also enables some 'extra' lines on the early turns. T1 GSZ into Arbor enables some added lines. Also it turns fetchlands into Therapy fodder.
That it dies to Deed can be annoying, but Arbor is always there to die for the cause. But the JUND manabase doesnt feel it is able to support Arbor. Running 4 Groves is really important to get Pfire online more effective. Also i found 4 PFire to be the best so it always shows up and gives the ability to play aggresive on removal. But design space kind of forces it to 3.

Liliana is a musthave in JUND since it also adds reach to get rid of creatures out of Decay and Pfire range. On overall i dislike Deluge since that card hit to much of our own. I played 3 and tried 2. Overall the conlusion was that with 2 it didnt show up often enough.

The list you posted Tomas, feels very soft int the high CMC end of the creatures. Imho this is the weakspot of JUND lists.
PrimeTime is still the best option for the deck, but that would require either Two Tower or a Kessig/P.Tower split.
I still swear by Stormbreath Dragon, especially because Haste and Pro White are so much relevant. 2 copies to compensate the loss of GSZable.

Painful Truth's feels somewhat awkward in this lists. I really want to play some but it doesnt feel right. Not sure how others feel about PTruths in JUND.

I am actually suprised not to find at least 1 Kolghan's Command in the 75. It is a really strong card vs StoneBlade decks. And in other case the card is a 2 for 1. Every mode is/can be relevant.

Lastly, Diabolic Intent might not be to effective since the JUND lists are so light on creatures.

I love JUND lists, but i still need and excuse to run it over JUND 4 Rhino. The latter is soo tuned and plays so smooth.
My question is, what draws you to this list?
Good and nice to see more interest into it.


Thank you for your thoughts Bobmans.

I agree with everything you say about the Dryad Arbor. Think it is wonderful that we can turn Zenith/fetch into another therapy for very little mana. It might allow us to even keep some Therapy against Miracles. (as we side out Veteran) The only think I disagree is that we MUST play 4 Grove and therefore we cant support her. We dont have to play 4 and I think playing 3 is actually the way as we dont want too much red mana anyway. We should see Arbor as a Creature - not a land.
I will try to cut Intent and add Dryad Arbor for a few next tournaments.

As you can see I have one Deluge in the board and I think that is just fine. But I am aware that high end creatures might be a trouble.

In our Prague meta I am the miracle guy so if I dont show up with Miracles nobody does. So I think dragons are not the option for me. I dont like PrimeTime to be honest as it is too expensive, does very little when it comes into play... Not to mention that with Meren 2 Towers is the way to go I think.
All our creatures shoud be GSZable or they should be Grave Titan. :-)

Why do you think Painful Truth feels akward?

Kolagans Command is a good card but I dont think we need any of those modes really. Mabye to bring back witness/meren... I think we trash all blade decks really hard. Speaking about blade decks they are not really decks anymore I think. (d+t perhaps)

We play a little bit less creatures but what about Junk? It has a few creatures more... Rhinos. I think we reallly want to sacrifice Explorer and nothing else unless we really have to.

I just think this a better version of the deck and if not it fits my playstyle better. I like we have P. Fire so we can go infinite on removal so we are better against taxes, elves, delver. I like liliana with P. Fire not allowing combos and controls to come back. From the board Blasts and To the Ashes make a perfect deck. (almost) ;-)

Just a few points.
Do you have your list?

Tomáš

[Tom4ik]

I would have killed to have ptruths in pfire jund. That card would be great in the deck. That deck is all about grinding CA with pfire and liliana. It is literally just big jund.

[Ralf]

@ Koplinchen

Welcome to the Nic Fit thread, hope you won't miss the blue stuff too much !

Nice list.
It seems you've put a lot of work into it.

How many sanctioned events so far with your list ?

What did guide you towards a 4 decay build ?

Thanks for your insights.

[Bobmans]

Just a few points.
Do you have your list?

Tomáš

For next event i will play at least vs; Miracles, UWr StoneBlade, Shardless, Ant, Elves and i suspect Eldrazi Stompy.
This is what i am currently staring at. Mind that i have 60 cards main and am looking for dat cmc 5+ beef to finish it.
Also i have little time to respond properly.

4 vet
2 drs
1 scooze
1 witness
1 courser
1 huntmaster
1 meren
1 thrun
1 tusk

4 gsz
3 sdt
1 ptruths

4 therapy
3 deed
3 decay
3 pfire
3 liliana
1 pulse

3 catacombs
2 foothills
1 b. mire
3 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
4 grove
1 dryad
1 p. Tower

Board
3 slaughter g
2 ts
2 surgical
1 p needle
1 garruk R
2 reb
1 ruination (availability)
2 g charm
1 k. Command

Ill modify the post later with full names.

[Ricardio]

I mean, I've also been skimping on Decays lately. The card just hasn't felt that good, especially for my meta.

if decay isn't good in the meta, deed isn't as good and therefore why are you playing nic fit? Our removal suite is top notch but you aren't playing it.


No you missed that he hasn't played AD at all at least for a long time.

that's a long time of sadness. that card is absolutely necessary, like air or pornography.


And here I am, thinking AD is one of the best cards in the deck :eyebrow:

me too. Maybe I am in the wrong thread. I will go check the rug delver thread.


For next event i will play at least vs; Miracles, UWr StoneBlade, Shardless, Ant, Elves and i suspect Eldrazi Stompy.
This is what i am currently staring at. Mind that i have 60 cards main and am looking for dat cmc 5+ beef to finish it.
Also i have little time to respond properly.

4 vet
2 drs
1 scooze
1 witness
1 courser
1 huntmaster
1 meren
1 thrun
1 tusk

4 gsz
3 sdt
1 ptruths

4 therapy
3 deed
3 decay
3 pfire
3 liliana
1 pulse

3 catacombs
2 foothills
1 b. mire
3 forest
2 swamp
1 mountain
2 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
4 grove
1 dryad
1 p. Tower

Board
3 slaughter g
2 ts
2 surgical
1 p needle
1 garruk R
2 reb
1 ruination (availability)
2 g charm
1 k. Command

Ill modify the post later with full names.

No KWR or Prime Time? That's sac-relig. or atleast broodmate deserves consideration. The deck grinds hard and wants a huge finisher or two. prime time gets all the utility lands and combos with kessig/thrun.

[Ralf]

@ Bobmans

Thrun loses a lot of its value without Kessig.
The "Protect the damn troll" plan is really nice.

To be perfectly honest, I still feel like any Jund list should have a finisher.
If you don't want to overcommit yourself into the "protect the troll" plan (which requires a lot of cards); Grave Titan gets the job done.

To complement it (and since you have included an Arbor), I would definitely play a diabolic intent. It doubles up your chance to have Grave Titan when you want it.
Not to mention that with Meren & Witness, you could even tutor for any card every turn...

[Bobmans]

@ Bobmans

Thrun loses a lot of its value without Kessig.
The "Protect the damn troll" plan is really nice.

To be perfectly honest, I still feel like any Jund list should have a finisher.
If you don't want to overcommit yourself into the "protect the troll" plan (which requires a lot of cards); Grave Titan gets the job done.

To complement it (and since you have included an Arbor), I would definitely play a diabolic intent. It doubles up your chance to have Grave Titan when you want it.
Not to mention that with Meren & Witness, you could even tutor for any card every turn...

I'd run SBD over GraveT any day. The list imho is to light on creatures for intent and next to this, there is no really interesting lines of plays it opens up that i cant get to in the grind anyhow.

I have never been a fan of Kessig. Thrun is solid on it's own. It does not loose value. Pumping creatures is one of the least useful things to be doing in this deck.





No KWR or Prime Time? That's sac-relig. or atleast broodmate deserves consideration. The deck grinds hard and wants a huge finisher or two. prime time gets all the utility lands and combos with kessig/thrun.

Broodmate is poop. If you read closely you notice how i mention i am looking for that cmc 5+ beefy dude.


Edit: I have been on JUND for some years, people don't have to be lecturing me on cardchoices that have been around. Because i have tried shit long ago.

[Ricardio]

I'd run SBD over GraveT any day. The list imho is to light on creatures for intent and next to this, there is no really interesting lines of plays it opens up that i cant get to in the grind anyhow.

I have never been a fan of Kessig. Thrun is solid on it's own. It does not loose value. Pumping creatures is one of the least useful things to be doing in this deck.





Broodmate is poop. If you read closely you notice how i mention i am looking for that cmc 5+ beefy dude.


Edit: I have been on JUND for some years, people don't have to be lecturing me on cardchoices that have been around. Because i have tried shit long ago.

The deck is SOFA KING weak to marit lage. Broodmate blocks or races alongside KWR. With so few creatures, turning the corner is a serious issue. you can control the board but without a wincon, you are just waving your wet dildo in the air to fend off your opponent until they realize it isn't a guy.

[Bobmans]

The deck is SOFA KING weak to marit lage. Broodmate blocks or races alongside KWR. With so few creatures, turning the corner is a serious issue. you can control the board but without a wincon, you are just waving your wet dildo in the air to fend off your opponent until they realize it isn't a guy.



Mind that i have 60 cards main and am looking for dat cmc 5+ beef to finish it.


I did mention that the list was still missing that beef.
PrimeTime, KWR, Broodmate aren't it or i would have included them. Those ain't changing the lands problem. But Marit Lage is besides the point. Red misses its Sigarda. I have tried so many options and its just not there. So im still looking for that beef.

[Ralf]

@ Bobmans:

I don't lecture anyone...
I have made my point on Jund longtime ago.
There is no beef, unfortunately.

The best option when power matters is G.Titan (Titania can also bring 10 power to the table on a blue moon)
I have tried many options.
Another choice could also be BSK.

I hope you will find what suits you best.

[uncletiggy]

wurmcoil is always a solid option in any list even without nightmare if BSK is on the table. I personally like primetime and the run.

[Plm]

Wurmcoil, stormbreath,batterskull and grave titan (currently known as W, SBD, BSK & GT) all share the same problem : without intent in the deck they're one of.

Last year, a team mate and I did bring nic fit a the GVA legacy IV. He played grave titan as his finisher and did poorly , with multiple (non miracle) draws because he didn't drew his titan. I played primeval titan and kessig wolf run. so I had 6 time more finisher in my deck than him (and killing people with a 6/1 explorer after they dealt with the titan was so good ).

I did poorly too but it's because I'm a scrub :tongue:

Anyway now I follow the way of the rhino, so much fun !

[Echelon]

no abrupt decays? that's insane. I assume you also do Sudoku with a pen and throw your recyclables in the trash.

Actually, I do. Balls of steel, buddy.


if decay isn't good in the meta, deed isn't as good and therefore why are you playing nic fit? Our removal suite is top notch but you aren't playing it.

Decay is a good card but most of the cards you want to kill with it can also be answered by PtE OR Deed. In the case that it's answered by PtE, that leaves you with an extra mana and, more importantly, does not pressure your green mana so you have an easier time doing more than just casting AD for your turn. It also allows you to deal with threats @CMC > 3 (i.e. those Eldrazi bastards, Merit Lage or that-what-troubles-us-in-general). In the case that it's answered by Deed yes, it costs more mana, but you're most likely x for y < x'ing them, creating CA where AD leaves you on parity. PtE also leaves you on parity, but does so for less mana and, again, doesn't pressure your green mana. It's win-win either way.

Another thing is that a lot of our stuff is bigger than that ran by most, so why would you specifically want to target the small crap? Especially when you can deal with it with a little creative problem solving. That's also one of the reasons why I forego on Sylvan Library/SDT - with some creativity you can create similar-ish effects whilst wasting less slots. Courser of Kruphix + 20+ shuffle effects functions similarly to SDT (that gains life and can smash face), especially when combining it with that Tracker guy. That in turn frees up slots for other goodies. Or just fills up all slots you have for that stuff, but in return it's all GSZ'able and capable of smashing face if needed.

And yes, there are some niche cards that AD answers that neither of those do, but if you really want to deal with those just extend your reach and run Vindicate. At least that lets you kill JTMS.

[Koplinchen]

@ Koplinchen

Welcome to the Nic Fit thread, hope you won't miss the blue stuff too much !

Nice list.
It seems you've put a lot of work into it.

How many sanctioned events so far with your list ?

What did guide you towards a 4 decay build ?

Thanks for your insights.

I have played about 10 events with it including some bigger ones. and my worst result was twice 2-2.

It is mostly Matt's work.

I dont understand the debate - I think we can talk about playing 3 or 4 decay but not playing decay at all is crazy. This card means that we can do well against all the tempo decks (which is most of my field), compete even with their nuts draw, it allows us to stabilize kill whatever on T2 and it canot be countered. It can kill almost anyhitng and it is our "unfair/tempo" card that our opponent cant do too much about. It also kill counterbalance and one of the most frustrating thing is loosing to it.

I agree that we are very soft (JUND) to DD/Thespian Stage eot... Dragon is interesting but 7mana to search for it is a bit too much. As you know I am a strong advocate of Titania. It brings back a land (tower, grove) or puts 10 or even 15 pwr on the board and the fact the she is one mana cheaper is huge. Me having Titania results in my opponent concession3/4 of the time. I also think we need only one big guy/girl as Ooze gets really big in the lategame that paired with pFires, Tusk, even Meren and Shaman is a two turn clock anyway.

Tomáš

[Echelon]

I dont understand the debate - I think we can talk about playing 3 or 4 decay but not playing decay at all is crazy. This card means that we can do well against all the tempo decks (which is most of my field), compete even with their nuts draw, it allows us to stabilize kill whatever on T2 and it canot be countered. It can kill almost anyhitng and it is our "unfair/tempo" card that our opponent cant do too much about. It also kill counterbalance and one of the most frustrating thing is loosing to it.

Please do understand that Jund isn't Junk and Junk has access to certain tools that Jund can't use but that shouldn't be a reason for Junk not to run it over whatever Jund is stuck with. To mirror your example: When you cast PtE on T2, you leave 1 mana open. That means it has "can't be countered by Daze". Now, if your opponent wants to protect the threat he cast more often than not his only option is FoW, which is an automatic 2 for 1 in our favor using a 1 mana card. I'm OK with this, as our cards usually have more impact than theirs. It also is one hard counter less we have to deal with when we want to cast the stuff they can't beat. We'll come out on top eventually. The worst case scenario after that is that you take some beats during the following turns, until you follow up with a big creature and turn the game around. Life still is a resource you can use.

Since I've been running Junk Fit this has been the way I rolled and I've yet to lose my first round to anyDelver.dec (or MUD, for that matter).

Sure it kills Counterbalance, but so do Pernicious Deed and GSZ into Qasali Pridemage. Both CMCs they have a hard time dealing with. Besides, sometimes you can get away with ignoring Counterbalance altogether.

To put this somewhat in context: I've been blessed with a very Miracles-light meta so it isn't something I really need to worry about. I run into it once every other monthly at best.

[Arianrhod]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_LsYpeyc5Iu.png

Gitgud Toad could be decent in some kind of BG Loam version, possibly could show up in the BUG Reanimator versions with Entomb+Loam.

Being legendary is soul-crushing, though. Started to get really irked about every decent creature that we could use being legendary. Stupid Karakas.

:edit:

Just noticed it says, "from anywhere" on the draw clause. There's some WEIRD shit that can be done with that thing with dredge, holy hell. Dredge can very easily go through its entire deck in one shot with that in play o_o

[sdematt]

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjciawolkcc0_soi/en_LsYpeyc5Iu.png

Gitgud Toad could be decent in some kind of BG Loam version, possibly could show up in the BUG Reanimator versions with Entomb+Loam.

Being legendary is soul-crushing, though. Started to get really irked about every decent creature that we could use being legendary. Stupid Karakas.

:edit:

Just noticed it says, "from anywhere" on the draw clause. There's some WEIRD shit that can be done with that thing with dredge, holy hell. Dredge can very easily go through its entire deck in one shot with that in play o_o

Legendary Frog Horror...what the fucking fuck? Meh, whatever. The guy is pretty good. He's super fat like we want with Spiritmonger, Deathtouch is also fine, and drawing cards when lands die? Seems fine. With Top you can easily feed him lands when you need to. Legendary is balls, but worth trying.

[Navsi]

Gitrog looks absurd. I'm sure there is some ridiculous list which can be made involving that guy and cards with Dredge. If you have a reasonable number of lands in your deck, he says 'whenever you dredge, draw a card' which has to be busted somewhere.

Upkeep, sacrifice a land. Trigger draw.
Dredge Darkblast. hit a land, Gitrog trigger.
Respond by casting Darkblast.
Dredge Darkblast. hit a land again, etc.

cast X darkblasts and mill 3X where X is your available black mana.
I'm sure this does something stupid.

[Arianrhod]

Gitrog looks absurd. I'm sure there is some ridiculous list which can be made involving that guy and cards with Dredge. If you have a reasonable number of lands in your deck, he says 'whenever you dredge, draw a card' which has to be busted somewhere.

Upkeep, sacrifice a land. Trigger draw.
Dredge Darkblast. hit a land, Gitrog trigger.
Respond by casting Darkblast.
Dredge Darkblast. hit a land again, etc.

cast X darkblasts and mill 3X where X is your available black mana.
I'm sure this does something stupid.

That's where I'm at with him. He does SOMETHING stupid. I don't know what. It might just be that he's a Dread Return guy for dredge. It might be something else. My spider senses are tingling, though, for sure.

@Matt: don't forget that fetchlands will also give you a card draw off of him, as well. Same with Wasteland, etc, although that's probably not relevant to us.

[Tom4ik]

This card is absurdly pushed. I mean just compared to spiritmonger that people were looking to play. The problem is we only really want the abilities but we are paying for the body. Lot of value stuffed into this card. Wasteland and fetches along with loam is great but we typically dont play those cards. Bug midrange/control does but 5 mana is a lot for those decks.

[Navsi]

Maybe in a Jund landfall build? Or a combo deck- he kills your opponent straight up with a Dakmor Salvage + Seismic Assault.

[Bobmans]

TYVM WotC. This is gonna be perfect for the (indeed) landfall build i was already circling around Omnath, Locus of Rage.

[Arianrhod]

Maybe in a Jund landfall build? Or a combo deck- he kills your opponent straight up with a Dakmor Salvage + Seismic Assault.

Now THIS sounds interesting. Good catch on that combo.

[dave78pdx]

Definitely picking up one Bigfrog for my deck. May end up only being for casual shenanigans, but the card is ridiculous. I've been looking for a new pet.

Other cards that may have synergy... Courser of Kruphix... Titania, Protector of Argoth... Sylvan Safekeeper... Knight of the Reliquary...

EDIT: That art cracks me up... This is what I see...

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/47/Rancor-CHRON.jpg

[Bobmans]

Definitely picking up one Bigfrog for my deck. May end up only being for casual shenanigans, but the card is ridiculous. I've been looking for a new pet.

Other cards that may have synergy... Courser of Kruphix... Titania, Protector of Argoth... Sylvan Safekeeper... Knight of the Reliquary...

Yep, my head is exploding haha.

[Ricardio]

this frog horror makes me moist.

[sdematt]

this frog horror makes me moist.

Frogs need to stay moist or they die. Are YOU the frog horror?

[Ricardio]

Frogs need to stay moist or they die. Are YOU the frog horror?

if you pay me enough, I can be whatever you want me to be

[Slacker]

Gotta stop lurking and share my excitement over this new bg-froggy. I saw it, and I almost came on my keyboard. I've been for long in the deepest possible love with Titania, and my fav and most played Nic Fit (JUNK) build is mostly built around her. My petcard just got her own favorite pet to play with, KoTRs just got a big beefy friend.

[Navsi]

As well as Seismic Assault, Borborygmos Enraged is Zenithable, and goes infinite in the same manner with Gitrog + Dakmor Salvage, but also rather mana intensive.

If we don't have the ton of mana required, is there any other relatively simple way of getting a Borborygmos or Seismic Assault into play if we just mill our entire deck? Because chucking everything in the bin is simple enough if we have Salvage and Gitrog, since Wild Mongrel is zenithable.

[Jain_Mor]

As well as Seismic Assault, Borborygmos Enraged is Zenithable, and goes infinite in the same manner with Gitrog + Dakmor Salvage, but also rather mana intensive.

If we don't have the ton of mana required, is there any other relatively simple way of getting a Borborygmos or Seismic Assault into play if we just mill our entire deck? Because chucking everything in the bin is simple enough if we have Salvage and Gitrog, since Wild Mongrel is zenithable.

Unburial rites?
Stick everything in the bin, use the cabal therapies you find to get rid of FoW or whatever with your mongrel and other random creatures (dryad arbor, narcomeba?) then reanimate old Borby boy and Borbs your uncle.

If you need it, memory's journey to stop yourself from decking if you have to pass the turn.

[Bobmans]

First draft:


3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 The Gitrog Monster

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Life from the Loam

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

http://s8.postimg.org/t4p0a329x/Dora_Cookie.jpg

Junk seemed the most solid choice to abuse lands. KotR, Karakas and Horizon Canopy made most sense to me. The list is both very close to being NicFit, but also go into a more Loam like play. Most of the land base is a mix of NicFit and Maverick as i played it. Before exploring anything deeper then this i want to test it.
Diabolic Intent is solid here, mainly because of Life from the Loam.
Horizon Canopy + SuperFrog get you 2 draws, which seems nice. Canopy can also fix mana.
KotR makes it possible to abuse the land base in conjunction with the frog. Adding DD/Stage enable another (very solid) line of play that is supposed to enable a win now button.
Titania (plus Sylvan Safekeeper) is another way to power out the land abuse.
Also with Meren, Arbor, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa, Titania, KotR, Loam and whatnot i see soo many techy lines, synergy and mini combo's.

Edit: i do not want to add Wasteland in here since we are not trying to be a prison deck or attack the manabase. I did, however, think about Ghost Quarter to attack basics coming out of Dora. Crop Rotate might be a nice touch aswell indeed like Jain_mor said. Maybe something like Fatal did in his Cloudpost NicFit (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28391-Primer-Nic-Feat-8Post&p=826002&viewfull=1#post826002).

[dave78pdx]

Dryad Arbor... that's a card I forgot about... Sac to Cabal Therapy or Phyrexian Tower with Bigfrog on the board. Or, just a chump block.

[Slacker]

First draft:


3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 SuperFrog

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Life from the Loam

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Junk seemed the most solid choice to abuse lands. KotR, Karakas and Horizon Canopy made most sense to me. The list is both very close to being NicFit, but also go into a more Loam like play. Most of the land base is a mix of NicFit and Maverick as i played it. Before exploring anything deeper then this i want to test it.
Diabolic Intent is solid here, mainly because of Life from the Loam.
Horizon Canopy + SuperFrog get you 2 draws, which seems nice. Canopy can also fix mana.
KotR makes it possible to abuse the land base in conjunction with the frog. Adding DD/Stage enable another (very solid) line of play that is supposed to enable a win now button.
Titania (plus Sylvan Safekeeper) is another way to power out the land abuse.
Also with Meren, Arbor, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa, Titania, KotR, Loam and whatnot i see soo many techy lines, synergy and mini combo's.

:D That's almost exactly the build I've been tweaking and playing a lot on Cockatrice. Without the Froggy ofcourse. VERY fun to play!

[Jain_Mor]

I like where that is headed, but crop rotation is a card that people have played with before to reliably get phyrexian tower, when you start adding dark depths and life from the loan it gets awfully tempting.

I agree though that KotR and white in general looks promising (as you said karakas and canopy are great)
I wonder what our collective hive mind can come up with. Hopefully it's a deck that has the resiliency and control aspect of standard Junk lists but also has a combo finish

Edit for Bobmans edit (: yea I think I would look at cutting one of the 3 drops and one of the 5 drops (there's just so many!) and try 2 crop rotation, maybe they are awful but it makes veteran explorer so much more consistent and explosive, and it makes the dark depths plan a lot more reliable too. You're also at 60 so you can add one more card from there, probably another removal spell (I'd personally cut the deluge, pulse and a SDT and play 3 path to exile and 3 decay, but that's a whole other discussion haha)

[Koby]

The best perks of white splashes are:
* Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile
* Sigarda, Host of Herons
* Sun Titan (some builds)
* KotR (other builds)
* Disenchant effects (mainly, Qasali Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver)
* SB anti-storm cards
* Planeswalker builds (Walker Rock)

[Slacker]

My current list, Frog added instead Tusk.

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy

[Bobmans]

Edit for Bobmans edit (: yea I think I would look at cutting one of the 3 drops and one of the 5 drops (there's just so many!) and try 2 crop rotation, maybe they are awful but it makes veteran explorer so much more consistent and explosive, and it makes the dark depths plan a lot more reliable too. You're also at 60 so you can add one more card from there, probably another removal spell (I'd personally cut the deluge, pulse and a SDT and play 3 path to exile and 3 decay, but that's a whole other discussion haha)

The list has 61 cards. I counted it, plus the innitial list made in cockatrice (minus the cookie monster).

3 and 5 drops quite a lot. KotR is obviously imprtant here. Nissa may be the weaker link. And so may be Tusk.
Not sure yet. First i want to jam some games with this before changing anything else.

[dave78pdx]

The best perks of white splashes are:
* Swords to Plowshares / Path to Exile
* Sigarda, Host of Herons
* Sun Titan (some builds)
* KotR (other builds)
* Disenchant effects (mainly, Qasali Pridemage or Harmonic Sliver)
* SB anti-storm cards
* Planeswalker builds (Walker Rock)

Siege Rhino (x4, go big or go home)... Gaddock Teeg... Stoneforge Mystic...

[Jain_Mor]

@Bobmans, haha my bad, physics PhD student over here who can't count ;) Happens all the time..

[Bobmans]

@Bobmans, haha my bad, physics PhD student over here who can't count ;) Happens all the time..
Hah, its always the simple things in life.




My current list, Frog added instead Tusk.

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
3 Knight of the Reliquary

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy

Looks solid. PrimeTime is a consideration aswell. Seems that your list has slightly more focus, which is a good thing.

[Arianrhod]

Something of note to Scapewish players, as well, about The Toad: he ramps directly into a lethal shift by virtue of his exploration effect, while also being a massive 6/6 draw engine. Admittedly his sacrifice clause hurts the Scapeshift plan, but at the same time, you only NEED so many lands in play, and the deck frequently ends up with a pile of extra lands lying around, beyond what's even needed for Shifting. Once you get to 7+, he actually helps draw you into the kill, which I think is nice.

It bears testing, not sure it'll prove good enough, but it fits in with Scape's overall gameplan nicely.

[Slacker]

Hah, its always the simple things in life.





Looks solid. PrimeTime is a consideration aswell. Seems that your list has slightly more focus, which is a good thing.

Your choice for Horizon Canopy makes me wanna put it back to my list, pretty good without the Froggy but now even stronger. If not playing Paths or Swords, i'd suggest Maze of Ith at least in SB to be ready for Marit Lage of your opponent. I've also played with Dustbowl or a singleton Wasteland which is very nice with Titania, and helps to get rid of annoying Karakas and such.
And from time to time if you gotta go all in and live dangerous, Tomb of Urami is for that. :)

Have a blast testing/tweaking your list!

[Fatal]

I'm almost sure that Frog find place in Aggro Loam for sure. Here it's still very nice value creature which must be StP as soon as possible by opponent which I like. It also can give you instant value by playing right after GSZ/Cast a fetchland which he allow so even with StP in opponent hand we still do 2-for-1 which is great !

About combo With Darkmor Salvage and Sesmic Assult it's more like option for R/G lands or Aggro loam to finish game little faster (still probably not enough fast vs most combo's) since you need to have Frog on table, maybe in dredge, but on the other side you have Beasts like Griselbrand which have lifelink + flying which looks little better :-).

Btw in Junk list you can use some tricks like Flagstones of Trokair, I would also use some wasteland (even 1 !) along with KotR it can be huge vs some decks without basics at all.

[Bobmans]

Have a blast testing/tweaking your list!


http://s8.postimg.org/t4p0a329x/Dora_Cookie.jpg

[Slacker]

http://s8.postimg.org/t4p0a329x/Dora_Cookie.jpg

:laugh:

And then some.

[rubblekill]

Wow, that frog is worth considering to say the least. I like it more than Titania especially because he has a stronger body, but unfortunately he suffers from being a legend. I'll test with him asap.

[Jain_Mor]

You know, it might give GB nic fit some legs again.
And if you want to go combo you can play crop rotation instead of the Knights.

[sdematt]

You know, it might give GB nic fit some legs again.
And if you want to go combo you can play crop rotation instead of the Knights.

Knight is also just an amazing beater. Sometimes, you want to suck the will to live from your opponents.

[Sarda'z]

@ Frog-guy and the interection with Dakmor Salvage:

1 - We're not the combo with seismic assault or borbo, but it's indeed GG
2 - Wild Mongrel is a possible GSZ'able engine + kill condition
3 - Retrace cards look very impressive: Raven's Crime / Flame Jab / Worm Harvest / Waves of Aggression (lol this one)

Side notes:

* Cycling lands (Barren Moor / Tranquil Thicket) become 1 mana -> Draw 2
* Crop Rotation and/or KotR become huge. The same goes for Life from the Loam

[Navsi]

The new X2GU clone might be interesting as well, since it's a GSZ target.

[Warden]

All the pet-cards! But seriously, that frog has potential. I think you need to combo it with KotR / Titania / Loam to get any value though.

[Whitefaces]

This could be pretty fun.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 GitFrog
1 Titania
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Culling the Weak
3 Crop Rotation

2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
1 Thespians Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Tabernacle
1 Ghost Quarter

[uncletiggy]

If your build already includes courser its fair to play a single frog and have it act as a draw engine. thw card screams to be built around but im not sure trying to jam some combo kills with it in the nic fit shell is the best use of it and our card slots. it seems much more at home in loam. its a shame lands edge is only players or there might be something here sadly tho rrr for sesmic assault is out of our league. courser+mina+frog+prime time screams for a jund pfire build. knight tempts us to run a lot of utility lands in a deck that already has trouble finding room for just 3. between rhino and baneslayer i dont think this really adds anything junk wants. jund however needed the big body undercosted zenithable must answer threat. just my two cents but i was looking at:

4 vet
1 deathrite
1 scooze
2 courser
1 witness
1 nissa
1 mina and denn
1 meren
1 gitfrog
1 titania/tusk
1 primeval titan

4 zenith
3 top
1 intent

4 cabal therapy
2 liliana
3 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
3 deed

23 lands
2 bayou
2 badlands
3 grove of burnwillows
3 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
3 forest
2 swamp
2 mountain
1 tower
1 wolf run
1 dryad arbor

14 g 13b 13r

[Echelon]

So... this board exploded, lol.

Nic Fit w/ Culling the Weak, I'm in! I've always wanted to sac an Explorer to one.

I'm not sure about the frog just yet. To some degree it's a Spiritmonger that ate both a Phyrexian Arena and an Exploration, but it's still 5 mana and slowly eats our lands. It also doesn't have evasion, trample or protection from STP. Meren, Dryad Arbor & the frog form a nice engine, so there's that. It also plays well with Courser and the upcoming Tracker guy. That's a lot of CA on assorted sticks.

I dunno. I've got to think about it. See what I can come up with.

[sdematt]

I'm definitely going to be brewing "Aggro Loam: The Frogman Chronicles" over the Easter weekend. Stay tuned!

[Navsi]

So I've also been messing with the Gitrog stuff, came up with this:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Wild Mongrel
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 The Gitrog Monster
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worm Harvest
2 Life from the Loam
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage

Side:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip

Basically Dredge stuff for tons of value, with a Worm Harvest and Garruk Relentless to kill with. Sylvan Safekeeper can protect Gitrog from Swords and kills with Titania / probably kills with Gitrog as well (if you need to go off, float a load of G and leave one land alive to Crop Rotate, draw a pile of cards and hope for gsz/mongrel and rotation/salvage into the kill.

I'm tempted to put in Lake of the Dead as a ramp / Rotation target. Might be a bit deep.

[Echelon]

Why oh why my good sir are you skipping on the low hanging fruit?

Play more fetchlands man!

Also, imagine what'd change if your Frogmonster'd just be a Sigarda.

Exactly, nothing. You'd win whenever the 5-drop'd hit the field. Seems like a lot of effort for very little result, especially since Sigarda is much harder to kill than the Frogmonster. This is just succumbing to The Danger Of Cool Things.

If you are to run it, just do so and enjoy the little extra value it gives you. Don't bother with building an entire deck around it as long as you're not going for a combo finish. Heck, even in LED dredge it's borderline unplayable. If that deck gets to resolve Dread Return, it just Dread Returns a target that wins them the game on the spot.

I'm honestly sorry if I'm being a dick, by the way. That's not my intent.

[Navsi]

I'm playing seven fetchlands already. Considering my non-utility lands at the moment are 4 duals, 7 fetches and 6 basics, I guess a Swamp and maybe a Bayou could probably become fetchland #8 and 9.

Frog vs. Sigarda:

- Sigarda is harder to kill.
- Works with zero support cards.

- Frog kills faster (untapping with him probably wins in one turn, Sigarda takes three or so)
- Doesn't require white, which means you get to play tons of strong utility lands.
- Gets some value if they Terminus you straight away (land drop, crack fetch, etc)

Dredge wont' play the Toad because he's strictly worse than Griselbrand in that deck.

Toad and Sigarda are both basically unkillable against non-white decks unless they're running Terminate or something - Toad lists are going to have Arbor and a lot of fetches, so I'm not too worried about Liliana, and it's not like he can be decayed or bolted.

[Echelon]

Untapping with just the Frog isn't all that impressive. It costs you a land, draws you an extra card and beats for 6 if it isn't blocked. Untapping with Frog and X and Y is. But so is untapping with Sigarda and 2 Siege Rhinos.

Also - it only gets you value right away if you have a land in hand and if you can crack a fetch.

You forgot an upside of Sigarda - she forces you to play white :laugh:. White forces you to run Siege Rhinos and PtEs :tongue:.

And I thought that fetching Dryad Arbor to dodge Lilliana was my thing :laugh:. I'm glad my craziness is rubbing off on people!

[Navsi]

Alright sure, untapping with the frog tilts the game massively in your favour if you have one of GSZ, Rotation, Salvage, Intent(+creature/fetch), or any discard outlet in your hand or on the battlefield.

I dunno, I just really dislike having 'turn my monsters sideways for 3-4 turns, starting on turn five' as a primary win condition. It feels so horribly slow and risky to try and get anywhere with it because basically everyone has a plan A that's better than your method of ending the game.

[Echelon]

Welcome to Junk Fit! And somehow we're still the scourge of any fair deck. So what's up with that?

Jund Fit, BUG Fit and Pod Fit are even slower since they have less efficient removal and worse clocks.

[Tom4ik]

Welcome to Junk Fit! And somehow we're still the scourge of any fair deck.

Jund Fit, BUG Fit and Pod Fit are even slower since they have less efficient removal and worse clocks.

Aaaaaaannnnd yet ALL of those decks have better combo match-ups than junk fit.

I have played against jbones junk lists twice with my current build of a pretty basic bug midrange deck and while I originally thought I would be unfavored after playing the games I do not feel that way at all anymore. I love playing nic fit but ppl on this thread are way too idealistic.

[Echelon]

Aaaaaaannnnd yet ALL of those decks have better combo match-ups than junk fit.

I have played against jbones junk lists twice with my current build of a pretty basic bug midrange deck and while I originally thought I would be unfavored after playing the games I do not feel that way at all anymore. I love playing nic fit but ppl on this thread are way too idealistic.

Yes, they do!

And that's funny, in my experience Junk Fit is heavily favored vs. anyBUG.dec.

This thread is mostly too friendly. We should try to pull Lemnear in here to sort that out, lol.

[Tom4ik]

Yes, they do!

And that's funny, in my experience Junk Fit is heavily favored vs. anyBUG.dec.

This thread is mostly too friendly. We should try to pull Lemnear in here to sort that out, lol.

From the games I played the issues I saw were
-Liliana was a big issue. Even just upticking was a real threat unless you had enough lands to do everything. This would be a bigger issue for those that have decided that Decay is not a legacy playable spell.
- Jace is an even bigger issue and most decks that play jace play some amount of basics meaning vet is very dangerous. (I hover between 2-3 basics)
- When discard bounces off each other and planeswalkers and artifacts and enchanments are in the GY goyf is a monster and kills VERY fast. This is also compounded when one deck has access to bs and ponder to search while the other has to hope it has top or draws gas.
- Most bug decks (shardless and midrange) play more CA than the junk decks. BUT that CA also comes naturally over the course of the game. I want to play a hymn, strix, snapcaster over a few turns so I naturally pick up some CA. Aside from Deed Nic fit cannot do this.

This is why I do not agree with running things like courser. That card is just not good. ramping is a fine strategy. ramping to play mediocre cards is not.

[Echelon]

From the games I played the issues I saw were
-Liliana was a big issue. Even just upticking was a real threat unless you had enough lands to do everything. This would be a bigger issue for those that have decided that Decay is not a legacy playable spell.
- Jace is an even bigger issue and most decks that play jace play some amount of basics meaning vet is very dangerous. (I hover between 2-3 basics)
- When discard bounces off each other and planeswalkers and artifacts and enchanments are in the GY goyf is a monster and kills VERY fast. This is also compounded when one deck has access to bs and ponder to search while the other has to hope it has top or draws gas.
- Most bug decks (shardless and midrange) play more CA than the junk decks. BUT that CA also comes naturally over the course of the game. I want to play a hymn, strix, snapcaster over a few turns so I naturally pick up some CA. Aside from Deed Nic fit cannot do this.

This is why I do not agree with running things like courser. That card is just not good. ramping is a fine strategy. ramping to play mediocre cards is not.

- Try that vs. 8 green fetches and Dryad Arbor (or shoving more... beef... in her face than she can handle)
- Jace is a dick, I agree with you. If they ever come out with a 1 mana "Jace To Exile", I'm running it!
- Path to Exile & redundancy in GSZ + Diabolic Intent. Also, one could theoretically "fix" this by running 7/8 Top/Library-like effects to mirror the number of Brainstorm/Ponder your opponent has.
- CA sure, threats not so much. Nic Fit has a lot of card quality. A lot of cards demand an immediate answer. In the late game, Meren also often is a nice source of CA (and threats or recurring PtEs etc.).

Courser is library manipulation above all else. It clears away lands so you actually get to draw gas. It also allows you to peek when to or not to fetch/GSZ/etc.

[Tom4ik]

- Try that vs. 8 green fetches and Dryad Arbor (or letting her eat more... beef... than she can handle)
- Jace is a dick, I agree with you
- Path to Exile & redundancy in GSZ + Diabolic Intent. Also, one could theoretically "fix" this by running 7/8 Top/Library-like effects to mirror the number of Brainstorm/Ponder your opponent has.
- CA sure, threats not so much. Nic Fit has a lot of card quality. A lot of cards demand an immediate answer.

Courser is library manipulation above all else. It clears away lands so you actually get to draw gas. It also allows you to peek when to or not to fetch/GSZ/etc.

-If I can turn Lily into a sinkhole effect that sticks around vs nic fit I would take that EVERYTIME. Especially vs a junk build as a Sigarda makes her obsolete.
- Turn 2 jace in nic fit is a sweet play. I didnt get it very often but the tower opener into turn 2 jace was amazing.
- I absolutely think if you are playing a nic fit deck you need multiple top/library effects. Ptruths also helps in the CA role but having cheap early filtering is very important. The deck loses when you draw the wrong half of the deck just like most non cantrip decks. Diabolic intent does not count. That card is another in a long list of nic fit cards that is good when things are going well and tough to use when not. Great for tutoring against combo decks though.
- Sure nic fit has lots of high powered threats. so does ALL of legacy! Take a real look at other decks and tell me those cards dont demand an answer. Most players will be able to decide which part of the deck is important to deal with. If I go goyf into tnn whelp I know keeping you off deed for 2 turns should probably be enough to win so you get to have everything else.
- Cards like Nissa or Courser are just not good enough. They have these cute interactions that seem great and then I am sure most ppl just deal with it or ignore it and kill you.
- The reason this deck struggles against even supposed good match ups is that it requires a multiple of things to happen. Delver decks and other bigger midrange decks only need lands and spells and they get to play. They put it on you stop them.

Honestly I just want to make a Frog Monster deck say "Ya Cant!".

[Echelon]

- Turn 2 jace in nic fit is a sweet play. I didnt get it very often but the tower opener into turn 2 jace was amazing.


Now who's being too idealistic? Suddenly it's OK to count T2 4 drops as "a thing" and ignore any countermagic one might face? Sheesh.

T1 Veteran Explorer into T2 Phyrexian Tower with the coast clear to cast some 4 CMC card is magical christmasland. Especially when running only 1 Tower.

Same goes for going "Goyf, TNN, whatever-I-need-to-stop-whatever-you-can-throw-at-me-over-the-course-of-several-turns, I win". When are games ever that easy? One doesn't deal with that exclusively via Pernicious Deed. PtE buys you some time. Chumpblockers buy you some time. GSZ into Glissa helps. Golgari Charm solves part of the problem etc. etc. It's never as clearcut as you make it out to be.

[Tom4ik]

Now who's being too idealistic? Suddenly it's OK to count T2 4 drops as "a thing" and ignore any countermagic one might face? Sheesh.

T1 Veteran Explorer into T2 Phyrexian Tower with the coast clear to cast some 4 CMC card is magical christmasland. Especially when running only 1 Tower.

Same goes for going "Goyf, TNN, whatever-I-need-to-stop-whatever-you-can-throw-at-me-over-the-course-of-several-turns, I win". When are games ever that easy? One doesn't deal with that exclusively via Pernicious Deed. PtE buys you some time. Chumpblockers buy you some time. GSZ into Glissa helps. Golgari Charm solves part of the problem etc. etc. It's never as clearcut as you make it out to be.

- I agree that turn 2 jace is not a realistic expectation for this deck. In fact I said I didnt get it very often. Blue nic fit also has FOW so yes playing big spells in that deck is much safer.
- So You need 1 of your 4 therapies to stop a fow. In a deck with little manipulation that is an issue. You also have to contend with counters like spell pierce and daze.
- going goyf into anything is absolutely reasonable for any goyf deck. Discard and counters are going to FOR SURE be there along with whatever the threat is.
-gsz into a glissa is a 4 mana play (glad we have 4 mana and can tap out for a sorcery speed spell so we are halfway there) that will die to every single removal spell known to man. You know what is probably stuck in my hand for the last 3-4 turns? Removal.

- I understand that these decks have answers. I played them exclusively for 3 years before taking the last 6 months off from vet. I am not trying to put the deck down and say dont brew. The deck is very fun and customizable. That doesnt mean we shouldnt try to optimize builds. when I see people play things like vraska I think "this is why this deck goes nowhere". That being said, magic is about fun so if people enjoy playing those cards then that is what matters. It doesnt mean I will agree with the card choice in the abstract.

[rubblekill]

From the games I played the issues I saw were
-Liliana was a big issue. Even just upticking was a real threat unless you had enough lands to do everything. This would be a bigger issue for those that have decided that Decay is not a legacy playable spell.
- Jace is an even bigger issue and most decks that play jace play some amount of basics meaning vet is very dangerous. (I hover between 2-3 basics)
- When discard bounces off each other and planeswalkers and artifacts and enchanments are in the GY goyf is a monster and kills VERY fast. This is also compounded when one deck has access to bs and ponder to search while the other has to hope it has top or draws gas.
- Most bug decks (shardless and midrange) play more CA than the junk decks. BUT that CA also comes naturally over the course of the game. I want to play a hymn, strix, snapcaster over a few turns so I naturally pick up some CA. Aside from Deed Nic fit cannot do this.

This is why I do not agree with running things like courser. That card is just not good. ramping is a fine strategy. ramping to play mediocre cards is not.

Nice posts.

The points you made are not only true, but the very reason I have always said that:

-Courser is not a card that belongs to the legacy format
-Not playing AD (in GBx colors) in legacy is absurd
-3 mana catch all removal is needed at the very least as a 1 of
-Liliana is JTMS 2.0. AD is needed against her

All this considering that I encounter a lot of planeswalkers online. Shardless is not the easiest match up as it would seem to be after reading some posts in this thread.

[Brael]

- I absolutely think if you are playing a nic fit deck you need multiple top/library effects. Ptruths also helps in the CA role but having cheap early filtering is very important. The deck loses when you draw the wrong half of the deck just like most non cantrip decks. Diabolic intent does not count. That card is another in a long list of nic fit cards that is good when things are going well and tough to use when not. Great for tutoring against combo decks though.

- Cards like Nissa or Courser are just not good enough. They have these cute interactions that seem great and then I am sure most ppl just deal with it or ignore it and kill you.


I'm not sure about Nissa, still haven't tried it but Courser is definitely good. The card advantage train is real with Library/Top, and the lifegain/blocking beats pretty much every fair deck in the format. Courser translates into drawing 2 cards a turn, every turn and gaining about 1.5 life per turn.

I'm less happy with truths, I just don't see why I need it when I have a Courser going. Mine gets used less for advantage and more for clearing Top.

Where Courser is weak is against decks like S&T, Reanimator, and so on but those aren't the decks we're trying to beat in the first place. The card is pure value.


The new X2GU clone might be interesting as well, since it's a GSZ target.

It's an interesting thought for BUG but I think Meren is the better 4 to GSZ in the vast majority of circumstances. The card we would most want to copy is Siege Rhino which is out of color. I do find it interesting in Pod though, pod a Finks into this and get another Finks, Pod that into a 4 drop, and persist this into something else. In that sense it's better than Metamorph since it's green.

[Zaxcord]

Hey,

Is the Scapeshift variant of Nic Fit still any good? I'm a modern transient, and my deck there was Rug->Btl scapeshift, so it would be nice to know if I could still use some of the cards from that for this deck.
Also, is the nic-shift variant similar in playstyle and objectives to RG titanshift, or is it more like an "oops I win" combo in a nic fit shell a la twin or Depths Maverick?
I assume Btl also wouldn't be very good, Burning Wish seems like it would be better in most situations because it doesn't require as much color diversity and another space in your deck for the card you want to tutor that wouldn't contribute to the creature-based strategy. Of course, this is all just speculation without any experience, so is this true?

Thanks for reading.

[Tom4ik]

@Rubblekill- You are right in that planeswalkers for non punishing fire versions are a big problem. Both Liliana and Jace apply pressure that deed and creatures cannot always fight. Thanks for the support of Decay! haha


I'm not sure about Nissa, still haven't tried it but Courser is definitely good. The card advantage train is real with Library/Top, and the lifegain/blocking beats pretty much every fair deck in the format. Courser translates into drawing 2 cards a turn, every turn and gaining about 1.5 life per turn.

I'm less happy with truths, I just don't see why I need it when I have a Courser going. Mine gets used less for advantage and more for clearing Top.

Where Courser is weak is against decks like S&T, Reanimator, and so on but those aren't the decks we're trying to beat in the first place. The card is pure value.



-Nissa is not a legacy relevant spell. Thats for sure. I dont care if you play gsz. That effect too small and if you have enough lands to flip her then you should be able to do something a lot more powerful than nissa.
- Courser CA is not worth playing a subpar card. The CA you are talking about is Courser with another card to be able to dig 1 deeper. The life is such a tiny effect I do not consider that to matter in the discussion. The fact that courser cant block delver, goyf, bskull, angler means that it cant even stonewall the main beaters that most aggro decks play.
-Ptruths vs Courser is not even close. I am a believer in ptruths as a card but even if you are not as high on it as me the comparison will still favor the immediate draw 3. It doesnt require multiple turns, doesnt need another card to really function. It lets you play it and untap with the cards or with enough mana play right away. Truths also cant be hit by decay, stp or any other removal spell that again, get stuck in your hand playing against a control deck.
- I dont believe that Nic fit has to have a bad matchup with S&T or reanimator so I guess we agree to disagree on that.

[Firepaw3]

Hey,

Is the Scapeshift variant of Nic Fit still any good? I'm a modern transient, and my deck there was Rug->Btl scapeshift, so it would be nice to know if I could still use some of the cards from that for this deck.
Also, is the nic-shift variant similar in playstyle and objectives to RG titanshift, or is it more like an "oops I win" combo in a nic fit shell a la twin or Depths Maverick?
I assume Btl also wouldn't be very good, Burning Wish seems like it would be better in most situations because it doesn't require as much color diversity and another space in your deck for the card you want to tutor that wouldn't contribute to the creature-based strategy. Of course, this is all just speculation without any experience, so is this true?

Thanks for reading.

Ive never played the modern scapeshift decks before so i cant talk about their similarities, but i play scapewish pretty exclusively at high level tournaments with good success
The version i play is like a tap out control deck where you just try to grind your opponent out of resources. once your both in top deck mode all your draws are just bigger
you can close out games with your creatures, huntmaster is insane, but more often than not you stall them out to a point where you can scapeshift for the kill.
this is the list im running now, been running about this list minimal changes for 3ish years now

Creatures (16)

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Huntmaster of The Fells
2 Thragtusk
2 Woodelves
2 Sakura-Tribe Elders
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (21)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (24)

2 Valakut
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Grounds

Sideboard:
2 Carpet of flowers
2 REB
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughtergames
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroclasm
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

lmk if you have anymore questions about the deck

[Warden]

Who the hell is knocking Courser and Nissa? You need some amount of utility cards...it can't all be bombs. Good luck ramping/curving. By the same token, the ramp is what makes Sakura (thanks Kev) and co. good in Nic Fit. Courser is probably the best 3cc ramp the deck could have --- considering he gives you perpetual library depth and is synergistic with top/fetchlands/shuffles/GSZ.

[uncletiggy]

nissa is honestly better post board in matchups where you have to side out some number of explorers at worst she replaces herself with a forest at best she draws a card every turn. you can't ask for much more from a three drop in blue control matchups. as far as snt and big fatty matches go ensnaring bridge helps solve much of the dilemma. its commonly looked at as a major nobo but in actual practical application it works. this thread in general spends entirely too much time in magical christmas land casting cards and making changes specifically for the sake of actually getting too not because they improve any actual bad matchups. you can only jerk off on delver.deck so many time before you realize that matchup is solved by your md and if you're having trouble its your play style and thought process not the card selection. if you bring this deck to any sort of irl tournament you want to have your board tuned to either beat storm/jace or big fatty.dec you cant beat both but you can beat one group or the other. i cant speak for the online meta because its skewed by an entirely different set of budget decks and availability concerns.

[rubblekill]

Who the hell is knocking Courser and Nissa? You need some amount of utility cards...it can't all be bombs. Good luck ramping/curving. By the same token, the ramp is what makes Sakura (thanks Kev) and co. good in Nic Fit. Courser is probably the best 3cc ramp the deck could have --- considering he gives you perpetual library depth and is synergistic with top/fetchlands/shuffles/GSZ.

Me! Courser doesn't 180^ the board like rhino and sigarda do, and I don't fancy wasting a gsz for him. His Life gain is irrelevant, for 3 mana it dies to too many things without being able to block.

Nissa. I have tried her because her flip side is nice and needed against slower decks but: against bug decks dies to decay (an otherwise dead card vs us) so she can't be a wincon; is a dead card if in the opener; ramp ability has always been irrelevant (4vet 2towers and drs is enough. Sigarda is my highest cmc card), and too many times, especially against miracles (the deck against which we want nissa the most), the opponent had removal and/or Karakas (a land that can render nissa useless) to negate the flip.

I have never played sakura and co in junk because they are weak sauce. Its not hard to hit 4 mana for rhino. Miracles doesn't need ramp to reach 4 mana to play jtms, and for us it's the same. Only that rhino is better.

I have been playing my latest list for a while and it's been the most consistent I have ever played. Rhino deeds and decays, no unnecessary weak cards, only the most powerful cards; I think the 76 is very streamlined, I will post it later.

[Echelon]

Me! Courser doesn't 180^ the board like rhino and sigarda do, and I don't fancy wasting a gsz for him. His Life gain is irrelevant, for 3 mana it dies to too many things without being able to block.

Everything you play for 3 mana or less dies to pretty much everything, so how is that an argument? Following your logic we should just skip on the DRS and Scooze too.

[rubblekill]

Everything you play for 3 mana or less dies to pretty much everything, so how is that an argument? Following your logic we should just skip on the DRS and Scooze too.

Infact drs is an utility one of only to fight reanimator. And for me Ooze gets infact sided out a fair amount, for me it stays in the deck because of delver and gy strategies. Sometimes we don't have mana to gsz a rhino against mana denial - delver, and ooze CAN 180 a board: this very fact means that ooze belongs in the deck, and in every gsz deck ever imo. It can't be said enough how irrelevant of a card is courser most of the time: the only bad card i am willing to have in the opener is dryad arbor, but this sacrifice gives a lot of benefits that can be game changing, as i said in the post above.

Tldr: a gsz for drs or ooze will be game changing and a life saver. 4 mana for a card that's useless for at least 2 turns is a waste of one of the best card in the deck (gsz).

[uncletiggy]

I have never sideboarded ooze out in a single matchup I already don't trust where this is going...

[rubblekill]

I have never sideboarded ooze out in a single matchup I already don't trust where this is going...

That's fair enough! Against shardless and miracles I do replace it with Elspeth. I am aware that it is a debatable choice but I have never regretted it so far.

Ooze is weird: sometimes I want to consider it as a sb card, then I draw it and remember why it is in the deck even if it's a 2 cmc guy.

[uncletiggy]

care to share your full list plus sideboard plan for what you're leaving in vs shardless and miracles over the ooze? i usually go:

miracles
-3 path -3 vet -3 therapy -1 nightmare
+2 ts +1 grip +1 garruk +1 teeg +1 needle +1 g charm +1 plague +2 surgical

shardless
-3 path -2 therapy
+1 garruk +2 ts +1 teeg +1 needle

[rubblekill]

care to share your full list plus sideboard plan for what you're leaving in vs shardless and miracles over the ooze? i usually go:

miracles
-3 path -3 vet -3 therapy -1 nightmare
+2 ts +1 grip +1 garruk +1 teeg +1 needle +1 g charm +1 plague +2 surgical

shardless
-3 path -2 therapy
+1 garruk +2 ts +1 teeg +1 needle

I will do it when I will be home, now im on mobile

[uncletiggy]

stupid time zones its 4 am where I am i'd assume everyone is home by now... its also worth noting that the european meta is about as different as modo vs irl. so what works in the pacific northeast may not work as well over sea's. where I live storm lands and snt are my boogymen im gaurenteed to see two of them in any size event with storm being the easiest of the three honestly.

[Echelon]

That's fair enough! Against shardless and miracles I do replace it with Elspeth. I am aware that it is a debatable choice but I have never regretted it so far.

Ooze is weird: sometimes I want to consider it as a sb card, then I draw it and remember why it is in the deck even if it's a 2 cmc guy.

Keep it in vs. Shardless. It can absolutely manhandle Goyf or forces them to AD it. It also fucks over DRS pretty hard, so that's nice. It singlehandedly takes care of 8 of their creatures.

[rubblekill]

Keep it in vs. Shardless. It can absolutely manhandle Goyf or forces them to AD it. It also fucks over DRS pretty hard, so that's nice. It singlehandedly takes care of 8 of their creatures.

I know but since deed here is the key of the match up I don't wanna blow my ooze together with their goyfs. Even against bug decks we should play ooze in the mid-late game, better after the board wipe, but again, most of the time he is gonna gain life in response to their decay.. I want AD to be our best card, which it already is, and their worst card at the same time.

[Echelon]

I know but since deed here is the key of the match up I don't wanna blow my ooze together with their goyfs. Even against bug decks we should play ooze in the mid-late game, better after the board wipe, but again, most of the time he is gonna gain life in response to their decay.. I want AD to be our best card, which it already is, and their worst card at the same time.

Yeah... Deed isn't for everyone.

If it so happens that you have Scooze & Deed out, you just ride your Scooze as long as you can and don't blow Deed unless you have to. Deed is best used as a threat, not as actual removal. You know, just keep hovering your hand over that self destruct button while you tell your opponent "Come at me, bro. I dare you!".

[rubblekill]

Yeah... Deed isn't for everyone.

If it so happens that you have Scooze & Deed out, you just ride your Scooze as long as you can and don't blow Deed unless you have to. Deed is best used as a threat, not as actual removal. You know, just keep hovering your hand over that self destruct button while you tell your opponent "Come at me, bro. I dare you!".

But in this way we turn on their decay, and we must keep mana up all the Time to threaten the board wipe.. I don't like that to be honest..

[Echelon]

But in this way we turn on their decay, and we must keep mana up all the Time to threaten the board wipe.. I don't like that to be honest..

We turn on their Decay by having anything < 4 CMC on the board. And you do like using Pernicious Deed as 5 mana removal..?

[rubblekill]

We turn on their Decay by having anything < 4 CMC on the board. And you do like using Pernicious Deed as 5 mana removal..?

Yes I do against AD, if I can. I have no creature outside ooze and Drs that dies to deed or ad (I have witnessed but come on her role here is not to be a vanilla 2/1).
Against miracles eldrazi etc I just play it and use it as a life insurance.

[Echelon]

Yes I do against AD, if I can. I have no creature outside ooze and Drs that dies to deed or ad (I have witnessed but come on her role here is not to be a vanilla 2/1).
Against miracles eldrazi etc I just play it and use it as a life insurance.

I'm starting to zero in on why you have so much trouble with certain MUs.

[rubblekill]

I'm starting to zero in on why you have so much trouble with certain MUs.

Getting the deed decayed is a feelsbad moment in my opinion. And you are forming a bad idea, I don't love the shard less mu not because of goyfs but because of the pw, which deed doesn't kill any ways. There's no connection between the two topic as you are implying.
Having 5-6 mana to wipe their board (in the shard less mu) as soon as deed hits the battlefield is usually not a problem, considering my first objective is to land and trigger an explorer in that matchup. Don't forget that deed is (for me) a one sided wrath: I can land a rhino the turn before and then wrath them and attack with rhino the following turn. This very line has won me the game countless times in that matchup. When I lose against them is only because of an unanswered jace or liliana.

[Echelon]

Consider me a honey badger.

[Bobmans]

Consider me a honey badger.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/00/70/8d/00708d039286e72067d976540fe8fc8e.jpg

[Tom4ik]

This whole conversation is absurd. You compare scooze to courser. That is not even remotely the same. 1 is used mainly as a md hate card that can be a late game big beater. That is different than courser which is STRICTLY a slow CA card. If you like playing with courser then do it but the deck is worse off for being filled with cards like that.

I also dont like playing Drs in the deck either. If ppl want to play 1 as a target for certain matchups fine but I still do not think that it needs to be played.

Anyway, play whatever cards you want. I am sure I will continue to see reports of "this one time courser and top just drew me so many cards" when in reality actual legacy cards would have done the same thing and been better more of the time.

Honestly what would be the most helpful for this thread is to stop saying the skill level of the deck is so high (its not) and to start looking at what cards actually mattered in the wins vs losses. Take delver, we have vet and deed for that matchup. You dont need anything else besides decays and gsz to accomplish that plan.

So I would challenge this thread. For the next few tournament reports. Lets break down why the deck lost. Mana screw happens, flooding happens, and turn 1 storm kills happen. BUT honest evaluation would help.

[Echelon]

So I would challenge this thread. For the next few tournament reports. Lets break down why the deck lost. Mana screw happens, flooding happens, and turn 1 storm kills happen. BUT honest evaluation would help.

Also, other should feel free to chime in. It's easier to spot anothers' mistakes than it is to spot your own.

I'm attending a monthly on april 16th. I volunteer as tribute!

[rubblekill]

This whole conversation is absurd. You compare scooze to courser. That is not even remotely the same. 1 is used mainly as a md hate card that can be a late game big beater. That is different than courser which is STRICTLY a slow CA card. If you like playing with courser then do it but the deck is worse off for being filled with cards like that.

This whole conversation started because of this comment


Everything you play for 3 mana or less dies to pretty much everything, so how is that an argument? Following your logic we should just skip on the DRS and Scooze too.

And to that I have replied that


A gsz for drs or ooze will be game changing and a life saver. 4 mana for a card that's useless for at least 2 turns is a waste of one of the best card in the deck (gsz).

So the comparing part was justified by Echelon's post, nobody here thinks that Ooze or Courser are cards that are fighting to fill the same spot in the deck.

And I think that the skill level of this deck is indeed high because it requires to know how to sequence our threats and how to play cabal therapy very well: that's one of the most skill-testing card ever printed in my opinion, and this deck revolves basically around it.

[Ralf]

So I would challenge this thread. For the next few tournament reports. Lets break down why the deck lost. Mana screw happens, flooding happens, and turn 1 storm kills happen. BUT honest evaluation would help.

Basically, this is what I am saying for AGES...

+1.

[Ricardio]

Im gone, asleep, and this place devolves into a petty dispute? C'mon ladies and gentlemen. We are the greatest thread for a reason.

Nic fit is a deck that allows for creativity and imagination. A discussion is fine but don't let it devolve into a debate over who is wrong and why they are.

Each player is going to play the way they feel is best for them and they playstyle and the same is true about how they construct their list.

I don't fault other pilots for playing less removal or jamming bigger pet threats. I hope they do well and show me they were right so I can try new things that aren't anal.

I started a league last night with Rhino fit and beat DnT 2-0. I won game 1 handly and then g2 I should not have won but my opponent was very inexperienced with the deck and I was able to capitalize on that. I am hoping to rattle off another 5-0 to keep nic fit up there so we can continue to get more minds working on what ive come to find is one of the most entertaining and manipulatible archetypes.

Cheers!

[Jain_Mor]

I'm currently 25-15 in League matches, 58/39 in games, with my SFM build and have been taken notes on all my matches. I can honestly say that a lot of my losses come from misplays and mistakes in the MTGO client (surgical extraction is really hard to resolve, and I have a habit of clicking the wrong basics with Vet explorer and not realising..)

I'm also not a fan of courser or nissa. I always run scooze, deathrite shaman usually gets a slot and I nearly always play maindeck teeg.

I'm still struggling against miracles, 3-8 in games (hexproof creature + equipment usually getting me the wins), 0-4 in matches. I haven't tried adding the fourth colour for Slaughter games yet, but I'm gradually running out of options (Abeyance, is my last hope I think)

I'm 4-6 against Elves in games, 1-3 in matches. Lost my 5th match at 4-0 one time to it. Their two different angles of attack, and ability to reload after a sweeper with glimpse or just NO with a few creatures make it rough in my experience.

I'm 6-5 in games against Shardless, 3-2 in matches. Here Deed and Meren are usually the MVPs

I'm 50/50 against most combo decks, Reanimator: 5-5, 2-2, Sneak and Show 3-3, 1-1, Storm 5-3, 2-1, Belcher 1-2, 0-1.
My game plan here is heavy T1 discard (4 therapy and 3TS) coupled with teeg and surgical extractions

And I'm favoured against Delver decks and other random creature decks. Which isnt suprising. I've settled on 3 path (the number of wins I've had because this wasn't stp is significant) 3 decay and 3 deed as my removal suite. I've found having a maindeck 3 cmc removal spell just because some decks play some Jace isn't an effecient use of a slot. But I'm open to being wrong.

What's suprising is being 50/50 against combo, (I guess my plan is working considering they are strongest G1), losing to elves and being crushed by miracles haha. I definitely had higher percentages agains them in paper magic in Japan, but that might have been before Mentor... Also online Miracles players might just be better.

So now i'm trying a build without SFM to see if I can still keep my wins against the midrange and creature decks (where the equipment often shuts the door quickly) while adding some more maindeck discard (to keep my curve low and interactive against combo and miracles) leaving some slots in the sideboard for some cheaper sweepers against elves and more haymakers for miracles.

Probably post another update in another month.

[rubblekill]

I wouldn't call it a "petty dispute", but an occasion to discuss our own play styles. You all should've commented too on the topic to express your opinion. I don't really get hurt if you have a different opinion, heck I am waiting to be proved wrong to improve myself. That's what it matters to me. I am used to some of Echelon's provocative answers, but I think both of us were discussing normally today? I know I was.

[crush]

This whole conversation is absurd. You compare scooze to courser. That is not even remotely the same. 1 is used mainly as a md hate card that can be a late game big beater. That is different than courser which is STRICTLY a slow CA card. If you like playing with courser then do it but the deck is worse off for being filled with cards like that.

I also dont like playing Drs in the deck either. If ppl want to play 1 as a target for certain matchups fine but I still do not think that it needs to be played.

..

Hey,

I play both Courser and DRS, both as a singleton. I wouldn't remove the 1 of DRS, he just covers too many roles to not have a singleton copy in the MD. Courser on the other hand is debatable. I find him the weakest link in my list, but calling him garbage is a bit too much. He is there because he covers a very specific role - low mana card advantage engine which helps you get to late game (mostly when triggering explorers is not an option and/or you need a blocker vs bolt decks). The key point here is that he is a low CMC green creature. If you know any other creature which covers the role better then please let us know.

Like you said, Scooze shines late game when you have plenty of mana to work with - tapping out to play a Scooze is always a bad idea.

[Bobmans]

Im gone, asleep, and this place devolves into a petty dispute? C'mon ladies and gentlemen. We are the greatest thread for a reason.

Nic fit is a deck that allows for creativity and imagination. A discussion is fine but don't let it devolve into a debate over who is wrong and why they are.

Each player is going to play the way they feel is best for them and they playstyle and the same is true about how they construct their list.

I don't fault other pilots for playing less removal or jamming bigger pet threats. I hope they do well and show me they were right so I can try new things that aren't anal.

I started a league last night with Rhino fit and beat DnT 2-0. I won game 1 handly and then g2 I should not have won but my opponent was very inexperienced with the deck and I was able to capitalize on that. I am hoping to rattle off another 5-0 to keep nic fit up there so we can continue to get more minds working on what ive come to find is one of the most entertaining and manipulatible archetypes.

Cheers!
Im gonna back this up.

The tension/atmosphere that currently exists is not what should be.

That said, Some tournament based report evaluation on the other hand is a good idea. Reflecting individual card perfomance to find out how they stand in the current state of the archetype. NicFit will always be a deck that could fit thousand cards, but perhaps some more details on each induvidual card would be nice to have. The thread does tend to circle around, the same questions, discussions and whatnot. We should either accept it or deal with it.

[rubblekill]

Im gonna back this up.

The tension/atmosphere that currently exists is not what should be.

That said, Some tournament based report evaluation on the other hand is a good idea. Reflecting individual card perfomance to find out how they stand in the current state of the archetype. NicFit will always be a deck that could fit thousand cards, but perhaps some more details on each induvidual card would be nice to have. The thread does tend to circle around, the same questions, discussions and whatnot. We should either accept it or deal with it.

Meh. I think you and Ricardio are exaggerating a little bit, read my last post above! We were discussing how to deed basing our logic on our real experience, you could/can express your thinking on that topic too!

[Ricardio]

@rubberkill: No exaggerated. Just stopping and pre-emptive anger. We want good vibes and vet triggers, no sadness.

In my experience:

SFM: Not my style for nic fit. I've tried it and been overwhelmingly disappointed by this artificer and her group of friends. #decktiledisfunction

Scooz: he is in my 75 forever #bae4life

Courser: Not very impressive, just a worse oracle imho. You only really want oracle in a deck like 8 post fit where playing 2 post in a turn is insane.

DRS: I cant stress enough what he is capable of. I play two because it feels about right. sometimes gsz = 1 is not vet but drs. having mb gy hate and a means to close out a game without attacking accompanied by rhino triggers makes life easier. Not to mention when they bring in needle and disfigure to deal with him. #narrowscardscantmeltnarrowbeams

Get em frog: He seems great and I anticipate he will fit some niche in legacy but I am not aware what he does for us. Seeing as a warped list would use him well, I cant tell if he is worth the 5 cmc investment. I will say he is interesting and I am excited for the potential he has. #brewongentlemen

Sorin, 6 cmc, no ult: His +1 is monsterous! His second ability kills jtms(see anal pain). His ult seems like I'd rather continue plussing him. I am exuberantly excited to test this sob. Hopefully he is what I wanted and more #squadgoals

I looked through most of the spoilers and was unimpressed albeit flavor wise, this set is a wet dream. #changingmypants

[sdematt]

@rubberkill: No exaggerated. Just stopping and pre-emptive anger. We want good vibes and vet triggers, no sadness.

In my experience:

SFM: Not my style for nic fit. I've tried it and been overwhelmingly disappointed by this artificer and her group of friends. #decktiledisfunction

Scooz: he is in my 75 forever #bae4life

Courser: Not very impressive, just a worse oracle imho. You only really want oracle in a deck like 8 post fit where playing 2 post in a turn is insane.

DRS: I cant stress enough what he is capable of. I play two because it feels about right. sometimes gsz = 1 is not vet but drs. having mb gy hate and a means to close out a game without attacking accompanied by rhino triggers makes life easier. Not to mention when they bring in needle and disfigure to deal with him. #narrowscardscantmeltnarrowbeams

Get em frog: He seems great and I anticipate he will fit some niche in legacy but I am not aware what he does for us. Seeing as a warped list would use him well, I cant tell if he is worth the 5 cmc investment. I will say he is interesting and I am excited for the potential he has. #brewongentlemen

Sorin, 6 cmc, no ult: His +1 is monsterous! His second ability kills jtms(see anal pain). His ult seems like I'd rather continue plussing him. I am exuberantly excited to test this sob. Hopefully he is what I wanted and more #squadgoals

I looked through most of the spoilers and was unimpressed albeit flavor wise, this set is a wet dream. #changingmypants

Ill be making a long post later today, but now Im driving for the day off. Ill post pics.

[Ricardio]

Ill be making a long post later today, but now Im driving for the day off. Ill post pics.

OH LORD! Pictures! I am excite.

[Tom4ik]

Don't make a big thing about "atmosphere" in an internet thread where most/all of connotation is lost. I for one think that people in this thread could use a bit of "harsh" reality about certain card choices. There is a difference between debating legit choices and just playing subpar cards.

- Discussing whether to play 0-1-2 Drs for example is fine. All of these are options that work within the deck and legacy in general.
- Discussing whether to play a 3 drop that has no value the turn it comes into play, takes multiple turns to do anything and even then needs additional help well it sits doing squat is just a symptom of Nic fit players thinking anything under the sun can be done just because we play vet.

Look, I love this deck. That doesnt mean I am not going to point out what I believe to be subpar choices. I doubt that my rational will change any minds but I do hope that breaking down games will show what cards are worth playing. I bet things like abzan charm, nissa, courser and the like will be shown to not be great.

[Deadinthestreet]

I don't post on here as much as I should for junk fit being my main deck at the moment, but I've taken it to card kingdom's weekly legacy for at least the past month and I played my first round last week on stream against eldrazi stompy and it def feels good having those big bodies in your deck to deal with these guys and also side boarded in glissa but never saw her. Best play of the game even though I lost during game two was blind therapy in him naming reality smasher a few turns into the game when I had nothing else to play, since that's their biggest creature I think and he only had like four cards in hand. And he already had one in play. I feel like this deck is in a good spot right now. Lots of matchups I haven't got to play yet but I'll start trying to do some tournament reports since I go to 25+ attendance weekly legacy

[pettdan]

I'm not sure I'm bringing much comments of value here but I feel like joining in and ventilating my thoughts. Also excuse me for my printing errors, this was tapped on a cell phone (celebrating the start of this Easter holiday in front of a warming fireplace).

@Courser:
I'm divided on this. When it works it's great, simultaneously letting you pull ahead of the opponent by continous landdrops and drawing relevant cards, seeing more cards too with an active top than you otherwise would. Life gain is a bonus and the body is relevant in some matchups (vs pyromancer, goblins, thalia..) but that's only side effects. In other words, when it's good it's a better Dark Confidant. Some of the most frustrating losses to me are the grindy games vs decks (usually blue) where the game state is even (=to your advantage) and you don't draw top or just see lands/discard for 3-4 turns and lose. Courser helps mitigate that risk, costing 1 slot only. Another situation where Courser shines: say you have to mulligan and start with 2-3 lands, maybe a top, a GSZ and a removal spell or similar. In these situations I want Courser since he allows me to regain the lost cards while also ensuring I draw some relevant spells. While also presenting a solid blocker and life gain to help you survive until you've gained the time you need to establish a favourable board position. What other single, GSZ-able card allows this and for 3 CMC? Of course he can be killed, but in above scenario you don't want to have to pay an extra mana (out of Decay range) since the major reason you need him is you're short on resources. He's not boltable, and for a Dark Confidant that's already pretty good.

When Courser is not good.. Is basically the same scenarios as above, but you don't see lands on top of your deck for several rounds. The disadvantage of a life gaining Confidant, it sometimes bricks.

I keep bringing him into and out of my lists, depending on how often I get disappointed and the list's mana curve.

@Miracles/Stoneforge: I also fight with this matchup (Miracles). I think I tend to make some mistakes which may cost me the game loss. Also I feel like my opponents tend to have some luck. I currently maindeck 1 SG and sideboard 2 SG's and 1 Tsunami; a while ago I tried 3 Tsunami and 2 SG's (Junk Rhino fit with 2 Baneslayers). I never draw it, or they FoW it, or I Slaughter Jace and they draw Entreat immediately, or I don't find top and draw all removal while dying to Jace. What I wanted to add is that when I was playing Stoneforge Mystics and Batterskull 1-2.5 years ago Batterskull usually kept good pressure on them. Perhaps it's time for me to try putting a Stoneforge and a BSK into a Rhino list. Problem is the Baneslayers have felt good and I like how they are relevant vs red decks, Delver, BUG decks, Misthollow Griffins (horrible matchup), Reality Smashers and even Griselbrands.

@Gitrog Monster: Have to test it, but it looks like more fun than good. Maybe it could be worth playing next to a Sigarda at the top end of the mana curve. It's a potential finisher by itself but in addition, once it's on the battlefield and your opponent is looking for a way to get rid of it you are likely to draw into a lot of threats and removal. The interaction with dredge cards is pretty good (esp the dredge land) but since we hardly play any dredge cards normally the concept is stretching the list quite a bit.. Keep on brewing!

Also I'll be playing at GP Prague this year and think I may be playing a fit list. Would be really nice to say hello to anyone else attending, I was too lazy at Lille last year.

[Navsi]

Gonna be playing in a tournament tomorrow myself. I'm giving Abzan a shot because I'm not happy with the matchup Scapewish has against a few decks - mainly Infect (which is absolutely awful) and against Lands (which is also terrible). Path is pretty tempting right now.

I am hedging hard against combo and Miracles matchups though, probably with 2 Surgical Extraction main deck. The only decks I'm not happy to see it against are DnT and Burn, and I have plenty of game against them anyway (playing 2 Massacre in the board for DnT).

[Ricardio]

Main deck teeg before you lean on mb surgicals.

[Arianrhod]

Gonna be playing in a tournament tomorrow myself. I'm giving Abzan a shot because I'm not happy with the matchup Scapewish has against a few decks - mainly Infect (which is absolutely awful) and against Lands (which is also terrible). Path is pretty tempting right now.

I am hedging hard against combo and Miracles matchups though, probably with 2 Surgical Extraction main deck. The only decks I'm not happy to see it against are DnT and Burn, and I have plenty of game against them anyway (playing 2 Massacre in the board for DnT).

Maindeck the Slaughter Games if you're worried about this, although Teeg should be on your radar too, for sure.

[Warden]

@Scooze: I love Scooze. Straight up wins games, beats GY decks, laughs at Goyf and DRS (who are seriously back on the 'scene in my meta). I completely agree with uncletiggy...he never leaves the deck. Last event I was even bringing in scooze #2.

@Courser/Nissa: We're not talking about Frostweb Spider. They are legit flex options. However, I'll clarify a point of contention for everybody: both cards are heavily dependent upon board position and luck. Yes, luck. If your deck can magically pull together some solid topdecks and/or you can sequence together some strong plays after these guys hit the table, either card is appropriate in the deck. I feel exactly the same way towards Diabolic Intent and Recurring Nightmare. All of those cards have very different opinions because conditional factors influence how great/poor they play.
Speaking of play, playstyle and style of Nic Fit is also a factor. I've learned that ramping is kinda important. It's one of my priorities and I thank others in the thread for helping me realize this. Why? Because I got my hunnies Sigarda, Baneslayer, and Dromoka. Those curve-toppers work for me. I try to make the rest of the deck work for them. I'm of the opinion Courser and Nissa and even Sakura help the cause in that regard.

@Losing:
I can boil down my losses into 4 categories
1 - I watch the opponent chain all the good things, but I have almost no business myself (ie; shardless into goyf, cast liliana - sac my 1 durdle in play; swing with flipped delver T2, protect him with daze/fow/pierce, bolt-bolt GG; No counterspell for my sigarda!? Miracle trigger drop 6 4/4 angels; turn 2/3 NO from elf player GG)
2 - Land-flooded with a side-helping of drawing fetchlands for days
3 - Opponent's strategy is too fast (elves, eldrazi, SnT, Reanimator, storm, belcher, combo-lands, god delver hands)
4 - Like taking an exam, early in the game I am presented with "choice A" and "choice B" and I need to select the best choice. I guess wrong and the entire game punishes me for something I did on turn 3.

@random thoughts:
Thoughtseize has been lackluster in the meta
Carpet of flowers is very hit-or-miss
Surgical/DRS/Scooze is strong anti-GY and anti-delver
Elves is a crapshoot. Eldrazi with post-lands is impossible. Eldrazi with pain sol-lands/chalice is winnable.
Teeg is a monster
KotR is a babe. But she needs wastelands. Wastelands would be awfully strong in my meta right now.

[sdematt]

@Scooze: I love Scooze. Straight up wins games, beats GY decks, laughs at Goyf and DRS (who are seriously back on the 'scene in my meta). I completely agree with uncletiggy...he never leaves the deck. Last event I was even bringing in scooze #2.

@Courser/Nissa: We're not talking about Frostweb Spider. They are legit flex options. However, I'll clarify a point of contention for everybody: both cards are heavily dependent upon board position and luck. Yes, luck. If your deck can magically pull together some solid topdecks and/or you can sequence together some strong plays after these guys hit the table, either card is appropriate in the deck. I feel exactly the same way towards Diabolic Intent and Recurring Nightmare. All of those cards have very different opinions because conditional factors influence how great/poor they play.
Speaking of play, playstyle and style of Nic Fit is also a factor. I've learned that ramping is kinda important. It's one of my priorities and I thank others in the thread for helping me realize this. Why? Because I got my hunnies Sigarda, Baneslayer, and Dromoka. Those curve-toppers work for me. I try to make the rest of the deck work for them. I'm of the opinion Courser and Nissa and even Sakura help the cause in that regard.

@Losing:
I can boil down my losses into 4 categories
1 - I watch the opponent chain all the good things, but I have almost no business myself (ie; shardless into goyf, cast liliana - sac my 1 durdle in play; swing with flipped delver T2, protect him with daze/fow/pierce, bolt-bolt GG; No counterspell for my sigarda!? Miracle trigger drop 6 4/4 angels; turn 2/3 NO from elf player GG)
2 - Land-flooded with a side-helping of drawing fetchlands for days
3 - Opponent's strategy is too fast (elves, eldrazi, SnT, Reanimator, storm, belcher, combo-lands, god delver hands)
4 - Like taking an exam, early in the game I am presented with "choice A" and "choice B" and I need to select the best choice. I guess wrong and the entire game punishes me for something I did on turn 3.

@random thoughts:
Thoughtseize has been lackluster in the meta
Carpet of flowers is very hit-or-miss
Surgical/DRS/Scooze is strong anti-GY and anti-delver
Elves is a crapshoot. Eldrazi with post-lands is impossible. Eldrazi with pain sol-lands/chalice is winnable.
Teeg is a monster
KotR is a babe. But she needs wastelands. Wastelands would be awfully strong in my meta right now.

Thoyghtseize has been a bit shitty, but you need early interaction. If youre on Junk w/ s. Games, consider just throwing in "FromThe Ashes" to shore up Eldrazi and all the greedy decks like Shardless.

Played last night and found I was running out of gas a bit against Grixis Delver. Could be rust or bad keeps, but Ill be testing the third Truths again.

More post to come later when im not mobile.

[Echelon]

I wouldn't call it a "petty dispute", but an occasion to discuss our own play styles. You all should've commented too on the topic to express your opinion. I don't really get hurt if you have a different opinion, heck I am waiting to be proved wrong to improve myself. That's what it matters to me. I am used to some of Echelon's provocative answers, but I think both of us were discussing normally today? I know I was.

I agree with you on this :smile:.

@rest of this board: I know I seem to get a little heated whenever I'm having a discussion with rubble, but I'd happily go and have a beer with him anytime. I honestly think he's a perfectly nice guy.

Look, I'm used to having firey discussions, it's a major part of my job (and I'm guessing the same goes for rubble). Going deep and being a little rough isn't something bad, as long as all parties involved understand that the heat isn't aimed at them as a person but at the matter being discussed. I agree with rubble that the rest of you should have felt free to chime in.

How are we ever to improve if we only stick to rainbows and unicorns?

On Thoughtseize: I run Duress in that slot. I mostly board in discard vs. decks where I want to strip away non-creatures anyway so why would I want to pay 2 life when I don't necessarily have to?

[uncletiggy]

@thoughseize aside from obvious combo matchups i traditionally also bring them in in any occasion where i board out some number of explorers over two therapies. its also worth noting that sometimes you have to take emrakul or grislebrand to disrupt your sns opponets keep duress fails in this application. duress is really at its best when all you are looking to take is permission.

[Navsi]

I'm already running Teeg main. I'm going for Surgical over Slaughter because it can hit lands, and the Combo Lands matchup is one I usually see quite a lot of. Taking Loam is nice but not as good insurance as just removing Depths or Stage.

[Koplinchen]

Also I'll be playing at GP Prague this year and think I may be playing a fit list. Would be really nice to say hello to anyone else attending, I was too lazy at Lille last year.

20mins from my house. I think I will be there. ;-)

[Brael]

@Courser:
I'm divided on this. When it works it's great, simultaneously letting you pull ahead of the opponent by continous landdrops and drawing relevant cards, seeing more cards too with an active top than you otherwise would. Life gain is a bonus and the body is relevant in some matchups (vs pyromancer, goblins, thalia..) but that's only side effects. In other words, when it's good it's a better Dark Confidant. Some of the most frustrating losses to me are the grindy games vs decks (usually blue) where the game state is even (=to your advantage) and you don't draw top or just see lands/discard for 3-4 turns and lose. Courser helps mitigate that risk, costing 1 slot only. Another situation where Courser shines: say you have to mulligan and start with 2-3 lands, maybe a top, a GSZ and a removal spell or similar. In these situations I want Courser since he allows me to regain the lost cards while also ensuring I draw some relevant spells. While also presenting a solid blocker and life gain to help you survive until you've gained the time you need to establish a favourable board position. What other single, GSZ-able card allows this and for 3 CMC? Of course he can be killed, but in above scenario you don't want to have to pay an extra mana (out of Decay range) since the major reason you need him is you're short on resources. He's not boltable, and for a Dark Confidant that's already pretty good.

When Courser is not good.. Is basically the same scenarios as above, but you don't see lands on top of your deck for several rounds. The disadvantage of a life gaining Confidant, it sometimes bricks.


Courser is a jack of all trades type of card. It does a lot of little things the deck likes.
It has a 2/4 body which matches up well against a lot of cards in the format, but it's still out classed by other cards.
It offers a medium amount of lifegain which this deck can then convert into other effects like Deluge/Library.
It's another way to clear Top/Library.
It dodges a lot of deeds (but not all).
It gives you a lot of information when to use shuffles without Top.

With a deck based around GSZ I think a lot of people focus on the specialist cards that just crush any given matchup, but they don't pay enough attention to the cards that are just always at a medium power level in pretty much any match, Courser is one such card. What it does usually isn't very flashy but it does a lot of little things that add up to a big impact on the game.

I used to hate Courser, it just doesn't look like what a Legacy card should look like. Then I started playing it and it's just incredible in this deck as long as you can drag the game out longer than turn 3.

[Echelon]

I used to hate Courser, it just doesn't look like what a Legacy card should look like. Then I started playing it and it's just incredible in this deck as long as you can drag the game out longer than turn 3.

That's exacty it. It looks bland, even a little when actually on the board, but it does so, so much work (when it sticks around). It's one of the reasons why I run 10 fetchlands - whenever Courser hits the field you're sure to have a way to shuffle away that top card that you don't want for nearly 0 cost.

[Arianrhod]

I agree with you on this :smile:.

@rest of this board: I know I seem to get a little heated whenever I'm having a discussion with rubble, but I'd happily go and have a beer with him anytime. I honestly think he's a perfectly nice guy.

Look, I'm used to having firey discussions, it's a major part of my job (and I'm guessing the same goes for rubble). Going deep and being a little rough isn't something bad, as long as all parties involved understand that the heat isn't aimed at them as a person but at the matter being discussed. I agree with rubble that the rest of you should have felt free to chime in.

How are we ever to improve if we only stick to rainbows and unicorns?

On Thoughtseize: I run Duress in that slot. I mostly board in discard vs. decks where I want to strip away non-creatures anyway so why would I want to pay 2 life when I don't necessarily have to?

You want Thoughtseize because Elves and Sneak/Show will punish you for running Duress. If you're on Surgical Extractions, it can also be relevant vs Reanimator, since it gives you the line of TSeize+Surgical Griselbrand vs their Careful Study hands.

[sdematt]

You want Thoughtseize because Elves and Sneak/Show will punish you for running Duress. If you're on Surgical Extractions, it can also be relevant vs Reanimator, since it gives you the line of TSeize+Surgical Griselbrand vs their Careful Study hands.

Would you agree that if you face more Lands to run Extirpate? Im on neither currently, but your thoughts? I think if you see combo of any kind, Surgical is better dor that reason.

[Ganfar]

I played with Couser for a while and LOVED him with top. Couser is alright but two latest tourment I wanted to get my second Witness. So Couser had to leave and now I have Witness.

Nobody talks about Witness, I guess everyone agree that card should be in the deck?

I have a flip Nissa now and want to try it out myself, probabally need to take out a witness -_-

Or 61 cards...

[Brael]

I played with Couser for a while and LOVED him with top. Couser is alright but two latest tourment I wanted to get my second Witness. So Couser had to leave and now I have Witness.

Nobody talks about Witness, I guess everyone agree that card should be in the deck?

I have a flip Nissa now and want to try it out myself, probabally need to take out a witness -_-

Or 61 cards...

I play 2 Courser, 1 Witness, 0 Nissa with 61 cards. I want to try Nissa, but I can't find a cut either because I'm not really unhappy with any current cards.

[ironclad8690]

So after reading this (http://manadeprived.com/abzan-mentor-legacy/) tournament report, I realized that you can just put Monastery Mentor in basically anything and profit. (Not to detract from that author or his deck, I think his deck is awesome and original)


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Monastery Mentor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Painful Truths

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard
3 Thoughtseize
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg


Just a rough sketch, but there is good synergy between mentor and natural Nic Fit shell with Cabal Therapy and Sensei's Divining Tops. How many of you guys hate extraneous Sensei's Tops? Why not turn those Tops into a 2 turn clock with Mentor, something Nic Fit has had issues with in the past is just clocking your opponent once you have mana. I propose we try Mentor to help this issue.

I do realize it seems terrible on paper, but I think it is worth a try.

[Echelon]

I played with Couser for a while and LOVED him with top. Couser is alright but two latest tourment I wanted to get my second Witness. So Couser had to leave and now I have Witness.

Nobody talks about Witness, I guess everyone agree that card should be in the deck?

I have a flip Nissa now and want to try it out myself, probabally need to take out a witness -_-

Or 61 cards...

Witness is a wonderful multi-tool. I don't think anyone plays without 1 in their maindecks.

I haven't tried Flissa yet. I'm not planning to either. I don't like the idea of banking on hitting 7 lands, but that's me.

I just preordered my Big Sorin & Tracker-guy. And a set of Prized Amalgams, but that's for another deck. I'm so looking forward to getting them, especially the Amalgams.

@Arianrhod: My LGS is so heavy on the GY hate I haven't seen Reanimator there in years (literally). We do have some Elves! and S&T pilots there though, so you absolutely have a point there.

[Mr. Funsucker]

My LGS had a GPT yesterday and got 40 people with a fairly diverse meta. I've been playing different variations of Nic Fit for several years now and got 2nd place going 5-1 and had a pretty good time. I ended up losing a match to Death & Taxes, but ended up beating Aggro Loam, RUG Delver, RG Lands, and two Merfolk decks. I'll be the first to admit I probably play too many pet cards because I'm somewhere between Timmy/Vorthos, but it ended up working out.

http://asgardgames.net/legacy-gpt-top-8-decklists/


4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Thragtusk
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Restoration Angel
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Woodland Bellower


4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Lingering Souls
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath’s Stronghold


Sideboard (15)

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Magister of Worth
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Oblivion Ring

[solnox]

I think this is my first time posting in the Nic Fit deck but I've been playing the deck for a while and took it to Channel Fireballs 3k event today.
My list

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Glissa, the Traitor
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles

I believe we had 92 people today so 7 rounds of Swiss

R1: Shardless BUG 2-1

G1: My opponent leads on Delta into Visions suspend so I settle in for the long game. I manage to keep the board clean except for a strix but his Vision goes off and he rips liliana, hymn, abrupt decay, and goyf. GG.

G2: We trade resources and on the turn before I die and he's at 2, I know the top 2 are 2 lands, I top during upkeep to find the Green sun and Rhino him out.

G3: We trade resources, Chains was pretty beast. I have a rhino+ Dragonlord Dromoka vs his 7/8 goyf and he goes to race. I get him down to 2 and find another Green sun with top into Rhino.

R2: Doomsday 2-1

G1: I T1 DRS into T2 Painful truths into 3 lands while having paths and decay. I scoop to Doomsday+gitprobe

G2: I slaughter games his doomsday followed by a Teeg and when he kills the teeg, i recast slaughter games i had rebought with witness naming wish and he's dead. Also Therapy him into oblivion.

G3: I slaughter games his Burning Wish after therapying him into oblivion. he had no MB win condition GG.

R3: ANT 2-1

G1: I lose G1 fairly quickly to the typical ANT turn.

G2: Thoughtseize into therapy into pressure gets me there

G3: He miscounts after trying to go off T2 after i blind therapy hitting a Dark Ritual. I pressure and he dies.

R4: Food Chain 2-1

G1: I top into 4 GSZ into Sigarda+ 3Rhino while he has 4 Griffins on board.

G2: Griffin beats after slaughter games kills me

G3: I T3 Rhino into T4 Rhino into T5 Slaughter games

R5: Eldrazi 2-1 Win and In in a pair down

G1: double abrupt decay his chalices into path his smashers and therapy his TKS on T2. followed by Meren into DL Dromoka is good enough

G2: I keep a greedy 1 lander with 5 1 drops and get punished by a T1 chalice.

G3: I slam a T4 Glissa which buys me time for 2 Rhinos which i then Deluge the board leaving me with 2 rhinos and him with nothing but 2 Chalices and a Sphere.

R6: Miracles- 0-2. Can't double draw as its another pair down and theres waay too many 12 pointers to safely scoop it so i play.

G1: He had everything. JTMS with Force+counterspell backup

G2: 5 Rhinos cast arent enough. Moat is pretty good.

R7- Draw with Deathblade

Top 8- I'm 8th seed and I receive a Game loss for misregistering my deck. I go in blind and play vs Dredge. His dredges were awful and i manage to get an ooze down to get me there. I lose G3 to his nutter draw on the play.GG

Going forward, I'd move the Glissa to the board and play something else. Deck felt great and killing people with standard cards were the best.

[Jain_Mor]

@Ironclad, that's a sweet tournament report! Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

I was going to try mentor at one point, but something stopped me and I can't remember what :/
You've thoroughly persuaded me to try him again. It looks like he fills a similar, though much more expensive role to SFM, except he kills quicker and as such is relevant against combo. Makes me want to play more DRS and more painful truths.

@Solonox, solid list and congrats on the top8, shame your penmanship let you down :P

@Funsucker, congrats too. I've experimented with Lingering souls, but after quickly going 0-5 in league with a test build, I abandoned them (I was running 3). How do you find the card?

[Jaytron]

Congrats on your top8 Solonox! Bummer at your deck reg error. Do you play at VS too?

[Ganfar]

I play 2 Courser, 1 Witness, 0 Nissa with 61 cards. I want to try Nissa, but I can't find a cut either because I'm not really unhappy with any current cards.

I can try 61 cards with Nissa to try it out. I have never played with 61 or Nissa so I will see how it goes.

[Tom4ik]

Would you agree that if you face more Lands to run Extirpate? Im on neither currently, but your thoughts? I think if you see combo of any kind, Surgical is better dor that reason.

With the amount of discard we see plus the fact that some of the harder matchups for the deck being reanimator and lands I like running surgical. I think surgical is just better as the ability to hit cards while developing the board is more important than uncounterbility or not letting lands cycle in response.

[Ricardio]

I agree with Tom, surgical being essentially free cmc is incredibly better than ss. So often, having it out of nowhere is necessary and the ability to have hate that is free makes getting a clock established that much easier.

@the newcomers: Welcome to Nic Fit. Enjoy your stay.
Thread cheat sheet: Matt is crazy. Bobman is a filthy casual. Rubblekill is a delver player in disguise. I know nothing about the deck and wish we could just continue talking unicorns and rainbows.

[rubblekill]

I agree with Tom, surgical being essentially free cmc is incredibly better than ss. So often, having it out of nowhere is necessary and the ability to have hate that is free makes getting a clock established that much easier.

@the newcomers: Welcome to Nic Fit. Enjoy your stay.
Thread cheat sheet: Matt is crazy. Bobman is a filthy casual. Rubblekill is a delver player in disguise. I know nothing about the deck and wish we could just continue talking unicorns and rainbows.

What? What?? You sonofa..That's the worst insult ever!

Echelon is the EDH player [emoji48]

[sdematt]

@the newcomers: Welcome to Nic Fit. Enjoy your stay.
Thread cheat sheet: Matt is crazy.

Not sure if this is good or bad. Do tell.

[Tom4ik]

@the newcomers: Welcome to Nic Fit. Enjoy your stay.
Thread cheat sheet: Matt is crazy. Bobman is a filthy casual. Rubblekill is a delver player in disguise. I know nothing about the deck and wish we could just continue talking unicorns and rainbows.

I recommend when you see a list with courser/nissa in it you just replace those cards with legacy cards and you should probably do fine.

[Bobmans]

I recommend when you see a list with courser/nissa in it you just replace those cards with legacy cards and you should probably do fine.
If you do, be sure to not play NicFit. Cus if you feel that way, this ain't your archetype.

[sdematt]

I'll be trying this:

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate/New Instant Vindicate (I'll try to do some actual testing on this and see how often the land vs. instant speed is relevant).
10

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
14

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
8

3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
22

Cut Intent again, adding the other Sylvan back in. Going back up to 3 Deeds. Cut Qasali. I really want to play a Relentless maindeck, and be able to run the new Sorin. But, the room, we don't have it :/

Boarding:

SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction/From the Ashes
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Basically, trying the plan of Surgicals going back in. I'm never ecstatic with Surgical, but we'll see. I'd rather run From the Ashes.

[Tom4ik]

If you do, be sure to not play NicFit. Cus if you feel that way, this ain't your archetype.

Why is playing Nicfit mean playing bad cards? There are plenty of cards that would not see play in many decks outside of this archetype. That doesnt mean any and all cards are good enough.

[Mr. Funsucker]

@Jain_Mor I've like Souls a lot. It's extra dudes to sack for Therapy/Recurring Nightmare, something to cast in topdeck mode, and blocks a bunch of Delvers, Flickerwisps, and Serra Avengers.

[Bobmans]

Why is playing Nicfit mean playing bad cards?

No, that is your interpretation. You are looking for linear or raw power in the cards you play, which is perfectly understandable, but that does not mean that narrow or less obvious cards are garbage. And for you saying the cards are garbage it doesnt mean it is so.
Saying that people are running bad cards is equal to saying they are stupid. Are you insulting people on purpose?

[Goblin Cabdriver]

What do you guys think about taking one of the g/b Caleb Durward lists and cutting the grave titans and a couple of other cards for 2x gitrog monsters and 2x sylvan safekeepers? I think there's some pretty good synergy there...

[CruelOptimist]

I'm looking to get into legacy, and I've become enamored with this deck. I've been doing research on it, and want to start building a pretty standard Junk list (I'm very tempted to build Junk Pod, but I get the feeling that it's not as viable as straight up Junk). However, I'm still fairly unfamiliar w/ the Legacy meta, let alone the meta in my area, and as a result am feeling not particularly confident with my sideboard building. How does this look for a blind meta?

2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke

It's certainly built w/ combo and Miracles in mind, but I'm not sure if I'm focusing too much on those matchups or not.

[Brael]

Why is playing Nicfit mean playing bad cards? There are plenty of cards that would not see play in many decks outside of this archetype. That doesnt mean any and all cards are good enough.

Have you ever played Courser? And in what sort of meta? I switched to Coursers about 6 months ago based on posts here at the time and they were right. It's a good card in this deck, it offers a lot of small interactions that add up to a complete package. The body doesn't beat Goyf but it does beat Deathrite Shaman, Shardless Agent, Goblin Guide, Monastery Swiftspear, Venser, and others.

[Arianrhod]

I'm looking to get into legacy, and I've become enamored with this deck. I've been doing research on it, and want to start building a pretty standard Junk list (I'm very tempted to build Junk Pod, but I get the feeling that it's not as viable as straight up Junk). However, I'm still fairly unfamiliar w/ the Legacy meta, let alone the meta in my area, and as a result am feeling not particularly confident with my sideboard building. How does this look for a blind meta?

2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke

It's certainly built w/ combo and Miracles in mind, but I'm not sure if I'm focusing too much on those matchups or not.

Looks fine. I personally favor Tsunami over Choke, since Miracles can weasel their way out of Choke and 3 is a more common CB flip for them these days than 4 is, but there are certainly people in here who disagree with me.

[Echelon]

Echelon is the EDH player [emoji48]

Thank you for this high honor!

I'm so looking forward to the day the first new guy posts his list with a Karador in it!

@Funsucker - try switching your Swords to Plowshares out for Path to Exiles. This deck is slow enough with its kill as it is, there's no need to give your opponent some extra life when you have better options. It's not that anyone plays basic lands or anything (or has any left after the first Veteran Explorer bites the dust).

@the Slaughter Games tech: I so need to get my hands on a Taiga!


Why is playing Nicfit mean playing bad cards? There are plenty of cards that would not see play in many decks outside of this archetype. That doesnt mean any and all cards are good enough.

B/c this deck actually has the mana to cast those bad cards. Unlike most decks we don't need to suffer from anorexia. We can eat all the juicy steak we want. I'm fine with letting people think some of the cards we play are bad. In the end they choke on them all the same. Or when they finally do realise those cards actually are good, it's too late. How often didn't you have your opponent snicker at Siege Rhino or Meren before it brought them to their knees? The same goes for Karador, mind you.

Besides, a number of cards that are considered good today used to be considered bad in the past. And if we all were to stick to playing with the same pool of cards simply "because those are the good ones", how are decks/archetypes and the format ever to evolve/grow?

[solnox]

@jaytron

Yea I play at VS every tuesday. I've been on Nic Fit for the past 5-6 Legacy events and have been tuning it.

[Tom4ik]

Here is the thing, Siege rhino, while being above the curve that most legacy decks play is still a playable card due to power level. I just feel that courser is not at that power level.

For example, some people play 7 drops (in DLD) but if I said that I think Verdant Force should be played most (if not all) of you would say that card is not good enough to play. I am not calling anybody out for being an idiot. I am just giving my opinion that certain cards just to do not improve the deck.

The deck already struggles with consistency by not running cantrips to smooth draws and also by running a high variance of impact cards (Vets 2-4 for example lose a lot of value), High end bombs in opening hands, etc. I do not believe using a gsz on it would ever be worth it and I do not believe it is a card I would ever want to draw. Therefore, as an already low powered card in a deck that tries to win by stringing cards together for a pay off card it does not fit.

[Arianrhod]

Here is the thing, Siege rhino, while being above the curve that most legacy decks play is still a playable card due to power level. I just feel that courser is not at that power level.

For example, some people play 7 drops (in DLD) but if I said that I think Verdant Force should be played most (if not all) of you would say that card is not good enough to play. I am not calling anybody out for being an idiot. I am just giving my opinion that certain cards just to do not improve the deck.

The deck already struggles with consistency by not running cantrips to smooth draws and also by running a high variance of impact cards (Vets 2-4 for example lose a lot of value), High end bombs in opening hands, etc. I do not believe using a gsz on it would ever be worth it and I do not believe it is a card I would ever want to draw. Therefore, as an already low powered card in a deck that tries to win by stringing cards together for a pay off card it does not fit.

This has been my opinion of Courser, as well. The card's nice to have in play, but you never want to Zenith it, which suggests that it doesn't belong.

That being said, I think that it's very important to remember that different people play the deck differently, and various cards and gain or lose value depending on individual playstyle.

Nissa is great for me, because she works well with how I tend to play the deck: heavy on recursion. Nissa isn't great for some people because they aren't playing with Sun Titan and Meren and Nightmare. I am. Nissa comes down for me, grabs a land, chumps a goyf, and then comes back and evolves into a planeswalker later. I can sing Nissa's praises until I'm blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that unless other people are playing with the same card choices, executed in the same order of priority and style, nobody else can accurately evaluate Nissa in the way that I can, from the background that I can.

While I am personally of the opinion that you don't want Courser unless you're doing something with Archangel of Thune, that doesn't change the fact that for some people in this thread, Courser is exactly what they're looking for. He fills a role that they play around, that works for exactly them in such a perfect way that you or I could never emulate it.

And that's beautiful.

This is why I avoid all of these conversations about playable / not playable. I firmly believe that for every player, there exists a set of cards that that individual player will find playable. This won't always overlap with what I deem playable, but it shouldn't have to. There isn't some kind of "#makenicfitgreatagain" bullshit going on here. The deck's core is strong enough that it can allow people to play the game competitively in their own way, and I think that is better than having an ostensibly "tuned list," because let me tell you, I can pick up a tuned Delver list that someone hands me, and I'll play it like a goddamn monkey, because that's not how I process the game. I'm not an aggro player. I'm not a combo player. I'm a midrange/control player. Beyond that, I highly favor playstyles that allow me to trade resources with my opponent, and then break the symmetry the game. Breaking symmetry is what I like to do, it's what I play to, it's what I build to. Veteran Explorer here. Notion Thief in vintage. Recurring Nightmare and Yawgmoth's Will are two of my favorite cards. I adore Gifts Ungiven -- the symmetry break there is information based. Green Sun's Zenith operates in a similar fashion.

That's how I play. I break some symmetry early. I grind my opponents out of resources, and then I Nightmare shit back and make them deal with it again and again until I'm taking the match slip up.

Does that work for everyone? No. There's a portion of people in the thread that think that Nightmare isn't even playable anymore, that Meren is strictly better. I disagree, but I'm never going to be able to change their minds because it's not their playstyle to do so. For them, Meren IS better. They don't place a priority in games on Nightmare like I do, and that's fine. I don't go stumping on crusades, knocking on peoples' doors: "Have you heard the Blessed Word of the Eternal Nightmare?" I'll say again: this is why I put a quote from Nietzsche in the primer. I'm all for erudite discourse, but let's avoid sweeping accusations like "not playable." If someone is playing Courser and they're doing well with it, hey, more power to them. I'll stay away from the card personally, but I'm not going to condemn anyone for their choices. At the end of the day, it's their entry fee, gas mileage, and time out of their life. We all make our own choices.

[Jaytron]

@jaytron

Yea I play at VS every tuesday. I've been on Nic Fit for the past 5-6 Legacy events and have been tuning it.

Nice! I remember playing vs a Rhino Fit deck a month ago or so, the games were insanely grindy.

My carpool buddy is gone for two months, so I don't know how often I'll be making up on Tuesdays for a while :(

[Warden]

I'll be trying this:

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7

3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate/New Instant Vindicate (I'll try to do some actual testing on this and see how often the land vs. instant speed is relevant).
10

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
14

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
8

3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
22


You have me at everything but the # of draw spells vs creatures. I can't justify running 7, that seems insane. Maybe I'm just not used to that playstyle. Since I'm a fan of tops (both of the female chest and sensei's divine variety), please enlighten me on why you run 4x [draw spells] where I usually run more creatures. I'm open to your perspective. I think I'd rather have DL Dromoka and some utility folks (Liliana of the Veil, Qasali, Sakura, Nissa, Courser, Witness #2, Teeg). Maybe there's something in having so many P. Truths and S. Library I don't understand. I also think Scrying is better than Truths, as it gets better the longer the game goes (Scrying for X is greater than 4 is backbreaking, yet attainable in grindy games).

I won't comment on SB cards since that's very subjective. Again, Surgicals have been money for me.

EDIT: I'm also a big fan of Baneslayer. She's incredible, just like Garruk R

[Tom4ik]

@Arianrhod- I am glad that you agree with me about Courser. I am trying to give the viewpoint that certain cards are not worth the slot. If people want to try to distort what I am saying into some person attack I am sorry about that. You are right that people will play what they want but the point of a forum is to hear feedback.


You have me at everything but the # of draw spells vs creatures. I can't justify running 7, that seems insane. Maybe I'm just not used to that playstyle. Since I'm a fan of tops (both of the female chest and sensei's divine variety), please enlighten me on why you run 4x [draw spells] where I usually run more creatures. I'm open to your perspective. I think I'd rather have DL Dromoka and some utility folks (Liliana of the Veil, Qasali, Sakura, Nissa, Courser, Witness #2, Teeg). Maybe there's something in having so many P. Truths and S. Library I don't understand. I also think Scrying is better than Truths, as it gets better the longer the game goes (Scrying for X is greater than 4 is backbreaking, yet attainable in grindy games).



Truths is a better card than scrying. 3 mana for 3 cards is a better rate than scrying. Having to exile cards can be an actual cost in a very permanent heavy. Instant speed is not worth a lot when the majority of the deck is sorcery speed. The game plan of nicfit is to grind games out. Having multiple avenues to trade life for cards is important to the junk version. The overlap of Card quality that top and sylvan provide compared to raw cards that library and ptruths give you is a nice way of digging through the deck for the core. The deck list posted will have a rough game 1 vs speed/combo decks but the fact that you have so much digging for rhinos/toolbox cards probably means most midrange decks cannot keep up with your threats.

1 of the ways that Nic fit loses in top deck wars is that you get your 1 pay off card countered/removed and then tempod out. refilling with that list looks very simple.

[Jolly-Gee]

Hello everyone. I've been here lurking for a while, finally decided to post. I've been wanting to build some version of Nic Fit for awhile, and Eternal Masters kicked the Legacy fever up in my area so I finally decided to pull the trigger. At the moment there is just a handful of us playing Legacy between rounds at FNM or jamming games on Saturdays, but hopefully once the community grows we can start having some events. The current meta is something like this: one guy can have any single blue deck together at a given time (currently on Shardless) and has MUD and Burn as well. Another guy has D&T, Burn, Elves!, and Solidarity. We have a Goblins player, a Punishing Jund player, yet another Burn player, two people on Eldrazi Stompy, and someone on Storm. I based my list off of one I saw on here, and it still needs some work I think. Here's what I've got:

4 veteran explorer
1 deathrite shaman
1 sakura-tribe elder
1 scavenging ooze
1 glissa, the traitor
1 eternal witness
1 meren of clan nel toth
4 siege rhino
1 spiritmonger
1 sigarda, host of herons
1 baneslayer angel
4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's divining top
1 abzan charm
1 painful truths
4 cabal therapy
3 path to exile
1 diabolic intent
2 pernicious deed
3 abrupt decay
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath

2 pithing needle
1 deathrite shaman
2 surgical extraction
3 thoughtseize
1 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist
2 golgari charm
1 qasali pridemage
1 grave titan

The Grave Titan is going to be one of the new Sorin once SoI comes out. It was a bit of a pet card to begin with, but it did feel strong against Jund. The Abzan Charm is something that I just put in the deck recently, I haven't gotten to test it yet but I like the capability to be a 4th PtE when I need it and 2/3rds of a Painful Truths when I need that. The thought of saving Sigarda/Rhino from Deluge makes me smile too. The Diabolic Intent has been really hit or miss, as has the Baneslayer. Intent I never seem to have a Vet for, and Baneslayer is let down by not being GSZable.
Anyway, those are my present notes. I wish I had some decent game information to type up but my data pool is not very large yet. Goblins seems rough (Krenko is terrible if I'm unable to answer him immediately) and Jund feels pretty even. Those could both be my own inexperience with the deck though. The others are all either in the process of finishing their decks or I just haven't had time to jam games yet.

[Ricardio]

I am done playing rhino fit until they fix miracles.

See you all on the other side.

[sdematt]

I am done playing rhino fit until they fix miracles.

See you all on the other side.

What, is it bugged on MTGO?

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod- I am glad that you agree with me about Courser. I am trying to give the viewpoint that certain cards are not worth the slot. If people want to try to distort what I am saying into some person attack I am sorry about that. You are right that people will play what they want but the point of a forum is to hear feedback.

Truths is a better card than scrying. 3 mana for 3 cards is a better rate than scrying. Having to exile cards can be an actual cost in a very permanent heavy. Instant speed is not worth a lot when the majority of the deck is sorcery speed. The game plan of nicfit is to grind games out. Having multiple avenues to trade life for cards is important to the junk version. The overlap of Card quality that top and sylvan provide compared to raw cards that library and ptruths give you is a nice way of digging through the deck for the core. The deck list posted will have a rough game 1 vs speed/combo decks but the fact that you have so much digging for rhinos/toolbox cards probably means most midrange decks cannot keep up with your threats.

1 of the ways that Nic fit loses in top deck wars is that you get your 1 pay off card countered/removed and then tempod out. refilling with that list looks very simple.

I didn't think you were personally attacking anyone at all -- and it's always wise to make sure that people have reasons for the cards they're running, not just "because lol. I just don't like blanket statements, is all :)


I am done playing rhino fit until they fix miracles.

See you all on the other side.

Them "fixing" Miracles likely involves us losing Top, so, not sure what you're looking for there.

[Echelon]

Them "fixing" Miracles likely involves us losing Top, so, not sure what you're looking for there.

I'd be fine with that.

[sdematt]

I'd be fine with that.

I can assure you that literally nothing is going to be done. Just wear enough pieces of flair and try your hardest out there!

[sdematt]

You have me at everything but the # of draw spells vs creatures. I can't justify running 7, that seems insane. Maybe I'm just not used to that playstyle. Since I'm a fan of tops (both of the female chest and sensei's divine variety), please enlighten me on why you run 4x [draw spells] where I usually run more creatures. I'm open to your perspective. I think I'd rather have DL Dromoka and some utility folks (Liliana of the Veil, Qasali, Sakura, Nissa, Courser, Witness #2, Teeg). Maybe there's something in having so many P. Truths and S. Library I don't understand. I also think Scrying is better than Truths, as it gets better the longer the game goes (Scrying for X is greater than 4 is backbreaking, yet attainable in grindy games).

I won't comment on SB cards since that's very subjective. Again, Surgicals have been money for me.

EDIT: I'm also a big fan of Baneslayer. She's incredible, just like Garruk R

Because you need to refill in a counter-heavy metagame. Many times, you go into topdeck mode and then get single threats removed or countered. It's almost why I'm always on the fence with Sylvan Safekeeper, since he helps push Rhinos down Miracles' throats.

Baneslayer is honestly, truly, madly, deeply, the nutter butters. However, there's just no gosh-darn slots. Ideally, I'd run another 2 Baneslayer, Garruk R, and the new Sorin (and an Intent). But honestly, the room, we do not have it.

-Matt

[Ricardio]

Everytime I play miracles, they have the t4 jace and the force to counter my removal. then they counter everything till I land a threat and then boom instant speed 1 cmc board wipe. I can't stand it. its soul crushing and not worthy of my time. Until the piece of shit is fix, im gonna go play GB 8 post. happy rhinoing.

[Echelon]

There goeth our high priest...

It's OK, our lord and savior Siege Rhino still loves you. His warm embrace awaits you when you returneth to us.

[Warden]

There goeth our high priest...

It's OK, our lord and savior Siege Rhino still loves you. His warm embrace awaits you when you returneth to us.

Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on the door this past Easter weekend. I was SO close to asking them "Have you heard about our lord and savior Siege Rhino"?

@Matt: More card draw in a counter-heavy makes sense but idk...then I feel I don't have enough business/creatures. Here is a hypothetical 16 that I still think could benefit from DL Dromoka, Witness #2, Gaddok, and Sakura. I want all the things!

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Courser
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel

[sdematt]

I actually want all the things, as well. I can't decide if my next car is going to be a vintage Ferrari, or to go with something more sensible like a Cobra kit car and bank the rest. Decisions, decisions ;)

[Arianrhod]

The last time Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door was two years ago, when I happened to be listening to this gem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Kqz49tQB8 turned way up. They haven't even come near my house since. It's fuckin great.

My solution to the slots issue in Rhinos is to shave out the spot removal. That opens up enough room for roughly all of the things. As I've explained before, I prefer to bias towards more sweepers anyway. If I have 5-6 sweepers in my deck, I don't really feel compelled to run spot removal on top of that, which gives me a couple extra slots to fit in all of the bombs and draw that I want.

[Ricardio]

I hate to use this out of satire but whenever I play miracles, I feel triggered. I suddenly don't care about the match anymore and want to move on. Within my own mind, it is the most overpowered, unbalanced deck in the format.

[Diogo37]

I wonder what matchs that are not good for us, this week will begin testing the deck and would like to know a little more about.

I playing Rhino Fit, but still do not know whether with or without red (SG).

Thanks for the help.

EDIT: Surely it must have been tested, but Thrun does not fit on the deck?

[maharis]

Does everyone on RhinoTime still have trouble with Miracles?

I really wanted to play it the other day but it was the Miracles matchup that kept me off it. The meta at the small tournament ended up being:

3 D&T
3 Miracles
2 Eldrazi
Infect
Deathblade
Cloudpost

I played Food Chain. Didn't do so great, but considering the meta was 25% Miracles... still feel like Rhinos wouldn't have been the right choice.

My idea was to cut down on Vets and play lots of Sorins in the board, plus Carpet of Flowers. Is that in line with what others are doing, and does it work? The meta is so fair right now that going over the top is really appealing... but Miracles is still a consistent player.

[Diogo37]

Nic Fit Top 8 in CFB 3k

http://cfbgamecenter.wpengine.com/legacy-3k-top-16-lists/

[Bobmans]

Nic Fit Top 8 in CFB 3k

http://cfbgamecenter.wpengine.com/legacy-3k-top-16-lists/
Yes he posted a report here.
Nice list. Great work.