[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Brael]

As for Jace, we're kind of getting there with Slaughter Games -- that card has always done a great job of neutering Miracles, but it comes at the cost of needing a red source. You have to play this awful nonbasic Forest in the deck and it feels awful when you draw it. An option that deals with Jace effectively that isn't red would go a long way towards fixing the problem. Way, way back in the day, we used to use Academy Rector grabbing Faith's Fetters for the task, but that's pretty terrible now with the legend rule change a couple years back.

Jace and Delver are the problem children. If those individual cards can be solved in a way whereby one isn't antithetical to the other, we'll be in great shape, I think.

I have never had a problem with Miracles, sure it's a tough matchup but it's one I usually win too. Maybe it's because the local players aren't very good (I'm not really sure) or maybe it's their build (usually a Venser/Mentor/Jace win condition build). One thing I notice is that you're only running 2 tops, run (and resolve) more. Top really takes the wind out of Jace's sails. They can only effectively 0 and minus with him on the board and that's much easier to get through because he'll either minus to death after a couple turns (just costing you some mana, or best case rebuying your ETB triggers) or his 0 enables a Terminus, all the while you've used your top to defend multiple good threats. If they minus, stick to just one threat on the board to make them keep minusing, it actively makes their Terminus bad.

Also, as was mentioned in the previous post by I think sdematt, a wide variety of cards is good. Just attack them from lots of different angles with low numbers of a lot of different cards. It's unpredictable for them and all accomplishes roughly the same thing.

Which Delver list are you referring to? I mainly play against Grixis, UR, and BUG, very little against RUG but I've found the trick in them all is the same, you just want to get a lot of card advantage. Accumulating resources is key, we can usually be the beat down deck in the match which means forcing the opponent into a control role. Make them focus on answers while generating more resources and you'll eventually get something they can't answer. Also, strongly prioritize fetching basics in the early turns so the only thing that's going to slow your development is a Wasteland on Arbor or a Stifle on a fetch.

[Warden]

-) Having a plethora of flying, lifelinking angels was pretty great. Warden suggested that I cut the two Rhinos for two Baneslayers, which opened some sideboard room and made me especially cancerous to Delver, which I am always a fan of. I felt like I saw the angels a lot more with a 4-pack, and they always overperformed.

-) Speaking of overperforming, Dromoka. Dromoka is great vs basically anything blue. As a meta call, she was definitely correct, and I'll be looking to run her in the maindeck at Columbus for the same reason. There are certainly plenty of times where I think she'll be better in the sideboard, but that's firmly a meta call.

-) Sakura continues to overperform. Sakura's the janitor -- you never notice him, you never respect him, but he always cleans up your messes.


@Baneslayers: You're welcome :)
To be fair, you had 2 in the list and 2 Baneslayer in the SB. Just run Baneslayers at that point. I think Angel-Fit works at Mythic. Half the players fully know we're running them but they still get there.

@Dromoka: Bitch is ugly af but my god blue has NO IDEA what to do with it.
@Sakura: I betrayed him and the deck sucked. He really is amazing in the deck. I wish others played him.

Hard removal pkg for Mythic should be something close to
3 Deed
3 Decay
2 Path
1 Toxic
1 Vind
/10

[TTX]

My experience with Abeyance is real. The card shuts down Miracle based cards and keeps a Jace or top from activating that turn. Also, 1 Vexing Shusher in the board? It dies to StP, but when it forces through a key GSZ, Rhino, or PW, it's back breaking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edit:
I've been having success with this list against Lands and Miracles: 4 Tops is not too many. Whenever you have more than you need, just draw something then flush it away, or, tap to draw, hold priority, then blow it up with Deed. Tireless Tracker is really good. It's either card advantage or a decoy. He also comes back pretty well with Meren. I know most don't but main deck Qasali. He almost always has a relevant target, and he pumps your EXPERIENCE! plus exalted can shorten the game by a turn or two.
Cheers guys, great stuff from everybody over the past week!

1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Abeyance
1 Golgari Charm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

[square_two]

@ Thread:

I can't beg you for trying abeyance against Miracle...
The card has proven to be valuable as you can deny their terminus attempt and threaten their life total.
Not to mention that getting to 6 mana to play it again, gives you plenty of time.
Coupled with surgical extraction, you can mess up pretty well with all their miracle spell.

Sure the powerlevel is not matching SLG but abeyance is far better against combo deck.

So I went 4-1 on a league tonight, jammed 2 Abeyance in my side. It seemed quite amazing each time I drew it against 2 storm, 1 miracles matches. One point miracles had a Jace out and I used it to cantrip and shut off Jace for a turn. Against storm, I drew into my single Trinisphere from the side, played my 2nd land, and then Abeyance'd on their turn to ensure the sphere wouldn't get discarded out of my hand.

My only loss was to Jeff Hoogland on Big Red, I didn't think to include the Abeyances until siding for game 3 - figure he could go to play a Seething Song or something and I could fire it off in response. I don't expect to win that type of match anyhow.

Other news, Tireless Tracker continues to perform. Completely shut down a stoneblade player with Sigarda + my own equipment game 1, then Tracker in next game made 3 clues before dying for an effective 4-for-1 after I cashed them all in the next few turns, finding my Tsunami to shut him down.

I'll keep testing my own Abzan brew but those two cards have been great so far.

[Echelon]

I am gone for a weekend and shit like this happens....Now, I'm reading through what looks like a damn math experiment gone wrong with all this belcher esque analysis. I believe over quantification will only lead to frustration. Nic fit is a labor of love, don't fall into madness over making the numbers perfect.

Also, Echelon, I am disappoint.

One can cry like a bitch when losing to Miracles or one can try to do something about it. The former will not change the outcome of the Miracles MU, the latter will most definetely not make it worse. Now humor me and explain why the former should call the latter disappointing? You disappoint me man, sticking your head in the sand and hoping for things to somehow magically change in your favor. How is that more useful than what we're trying to do? Look man, this is a labor of love, why do you think we're putting so much effort into it? Heck, look at it as you would at a relationship. Sometimes in a relationship you've got to work on the issues you and your significant other have. That's what we're doing, rather than take the easy route and run off to the corner whore.


I will +1 this post because I am a lazy person with little time to post a comment about this magnificently in-depth (as much as convoluted and quite confusing) analysis that you beautiful people have been doing recently.
I wholeheartedly agree Ric.

Doesn't say a word for a week, opens his mouth the minute another screams disappointment. You sir, are a badass.


In evaluation of Courser, anecdotally, how many times did he simply reveal the top of your deck without providing value?
Perhaps for this deck, with its ability to thin the deck of lands, his value is lessened compared to other Junk/Rock decks where there is a higher concentration of lands in deck.

Apart from the obvious drawing lands from the top, the most value I usually get out of it is when it shows me that something I really need is on the top of my library when I'm about to crack a fetch/do whatever to mess that up. That has won me games.


Even talking about cutting Sigarda is retarded. The only reason why you dont play more than one is because you have GSZ to tutor for her and she is unkillable she is legendary so you cant have two in play.

Read, man. I was talking about Sigarda maybe not making the cut due to space restrictions that seemed to be there at the time. It's not that I didn't want to run Sigarda, but at that point there was a slim possibility I simply couldn't. There's a difference. Besides, to repeat matt - you cannot simply keep throwing Siege Rhinos and Sigardas at a deck that has 1 mana sweepers and expect the end result to change. Adapt or die, it's pure Darwinism.

@matt: Be that as it may, why shouldn't we look beyond Slaughter Games for something that does the same job but is maindeckable? It'd be nice to increase the odds of also taking game 1. I also really hate the idea of running a Taiga. May your poops give you joy.

@Navsi: Be a little creative. Ramp doesn't necessarily need to be a T1 thing. The last time I got to play physical Magic I ate a Siege Rhino with my Phyrexian Tower, dropped a second Phyrexian Tower and ate something else to drop 2 Siege Rhinos in 1 turn. I couldn't have done that without the Towers, which gave me the boost in mana I needed to do that.

@Brael: I'm not saying we should cut Siege Rhino/Sigarda, I'm saying we may not be able to fit them in. There's a difference. In light of the list I arrived at yesterday, it looks like we at least can fit in Sigarda.

@Arianrhod: Thank you for your support. You're also spot on about what we want for GSZ and the deck in general. WotC needs to print a BG creature that can kill other creatures when it ETB.

[rubblekill]

One can cry like a bitch when losing to Miracles or one can try to do something about it. The former will not change the outcome of the Miracles MU, the latter will most definetely not make it worse. Now humor me and explain why the former should call the latter disappointing? You disappoint me man, sticking your head in the sand and hoping for things to somehow magically change in your favor. How is that more useful than what we're trying to do? Look man, this is a labor of love, why do you think we're putting so much effort into it? Heck, look at it as you would at a relationship. Sometimes in a relationship you've got to work on the issues you and your significant other have. That's what we're doing, rather than take the easy route and run off to the corner whore.



Doesn't say a word for a week, opens his mouth the minute another screams disappointment. You sir, are a badass.



Apart from the obvious drawing lands from the top, the most value I usually get out of it is when it shows me that something I really need is on the top of my library when I'm about to crack a fetch/do whatever to mess that up. That has won me games.



Read, man. I was talking about Sigarda maybe not making the cut due to space restrictions that seemed to be there at the time. It's not that I didn't want to run Sigarda, but at that point there was a slim possibility I simply couldn't. There's a difference. Besides, to repeat matt - you cannot simply keep throwing Siege Rhinos and Sigardas at a deck that has 1 mana sweepers and expect the end result to change. Adapt or die, it's pure Darwinism.

@matt: Be that as it may, why shouldn't we look beyond Slaughter Games for something that does the same job but is maindeckable? It'd be nice to increase the odds of also taking game 1. I also really hate the idea of running a Taiga. May you enjoy your poops for the coming days.

@Navsi: Be a little creative. Ramp doesn't necessarily need to be a T1 thing. The last time I got to play physical Magic I ate a Siege Rhino with my Phyrexian Tower, dropped a second Phyrexian Tower and ate something else to drop 2 Siege Rhinos in 1 turn. I couldn't have done that without the Towers, which gave me the boost in mana I needed to do that.

@Brael: I'm not saying we should cut Siege Rhino/Sigarda, I'm saying we may not be able to fit them in. There's a difference. In light of the list I arrived at yesterday, it looks like we at least can fit in Sigarda.

@Arianrhod: Thank you for your support. You're also spot on about what we want for GSZ and the deck in general. WotC needs to print a BG creature that can kill other creatures when it ETB.

Why do you always have to take things personally? The work you guys are doing is great and the passion you are putting in your work is laudable, but I feel like you guys are going a bit crazy with some of your choices/math and +1ing Ricardios post was the quickest way to express my opinion, unfortunately I can't keep up with all the math you beautiful people are doing bar commenting each individual though process. That post of yours reminds me some posts from the storm or elves thread, keep it classy next time.

@thread: in the 2 matches I have been able to play since my last post abeyance has been decent enough for me to want to keep testing it more. My gut feeling is that without games I feel extremely fragile and defenseless against miracles, because sg is a permanent solution to the problem while abeyance it is not.

[Echelon]

Why do you always have to take things personally? The work you guys are doing is great and the passion you are putting in your work is laudable, but I feel like you guys are going a bit crazy with some of your choices/math and +1ing Ricardios post was the quickest way to express my opinion, unfortunately I can't keep up with all the math you beautiful people are doing bar commenting each individual though process. That post of yours reminds me some posts from the storm or elves thread, keep it classy next time.

B/c the internet does not come equiped with intonation and as such some things come across as aimed at a person. Also, "Echelon, you disappoint me" and "Yeah, I agree" seem rather specific, especially if it's 2 consecutive posts posted 11 minutes apart after we've been at it for a number of days. But that's probably just me. Anyways, after that Newtons third law kicks in.

Besides, it's rather easy to not do a thing yourself, yet critique others on their effort and instead of putting effort into that just stick to "Meh, it's different from what we normally do so it must suck" or "Meh, numbers suck". It's hypocritical, it conveys a lack of understanding and it's rude. If that's really the only thing one can contribute, one might as well not contribute at all.

[Tao]

I 100% agree with rubblekill. This number thing is going nowhere. As an example:




Read, man. I was talking about Sigarda maybe not making the cut due to space restrictions that seemed to be there at the time. It's not that I didn't want to run Sigarda, but at that point there was a slim possibility I simply couldn't. There's a difference. Besides, to repeat matt - you cannot simply keep throwing Siege Rhinos and Sigardas at a deck that has 1 mana sweepers and expect the end result to change. Adapt or die, it's pure Darwinism.


Instead of theorycrafting, play a few games and you will see that Sigarda is an absolute key card and 100% uncuttable. I would say it is THE most uncuttable card in the deck. Cut literally anything else before Sigarda.

[rubblekill]

B/c the internet does not come equiped with intonation and as such some things come across as aimed at a person. Also, "Echelon, you disappoint me" and "Yeah, I agree" seem rather specific, especially if it's 2 consecutive posts posted 11 minutes apart after we've been at it for a number of days. But that's probably just me. Anyways, after that Newtons third law kicks in.

Besides, it's rather easy to not do a thing yourself, yet critique others on their effort and instead of putting effort into that just stick to "Meh, it's different from what we normally do so it must suck" or "Meh, numbers suck". It's hypocritical, it conveys a lack of understanding and it's rude. If that's really the only thing one can contribute, one might as well not contribute at all.

The part about the disappointment was not included in my "I agree", it was a personal thing between you two. I thought it was obvious. If you read my post it was not negative as you are portraying it now, sorry if you got offended. It truly is hard for me to convey my thinking in the least amount of words possible in English, maybe that makes it seem like I am an angry teenager? This is enough OT for today, you keep doing the math I will keep reading, believing in what I said yesterday, no need for some petty drama.

[Echelon]

I 100% agree with rubblekill. This number thing is going nowhere. As an example:

Instead of theorycrafting, play a few games and you will see that Sigarda is an absolute key card and 100% uncuttable. I would say it is THE most uncuttable card in the deck. Cut literally anything else before Sigarda.

Did we come up with a finished list yet? Can you definitively say we've cut Sigarda? We haven't. You can't, so what the fuck are you bitching about? And do you honestly think none of us ever has had a Sigarda on the field or that we don't know how powerful Sigarda is? Seriously man. Why do I even bother..?


The part about the disappointment was not included in my "I agree", it was a personal thing between you two. I thought it was obvious. If you read my post it was not negative as you are portraying it now, sorry if you got offended. It truly is hard for me to convey my thinking in the least amount of words possible in English, maybe that makes it seem like I am an angry teenager? This is enough OT for today, you keep doing the math I will keep reading, believing in what I said yesterday, no need for some petty drama.

I have a hard time keeping up with everything at the moment too, so part of it probably is on me too. I'm sorry for lashing out. It's frustrating to see so much work being brushed aside with as little as "Meh".

Alright, back to business. I want to see this through to the end. Yesterday I left off at:
19-20 lands
2 Phyrexian Tower for 1 ramp slot
4 GSZ
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

I really want to add Tireless Tracker, Eternal Witness and Courser of Kruphix, counting all as CA & finisher. So that's:

19-20 lands
2 Phyrexian Tower for 1 ramp slot
4 GSZ
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix

Makes 24, with 16-17 slots worth in 15-16 available slots, divided in:
8 interaction/removal
5 CA/library manipulation
3-4 finisher
to go.

1 double duty slot to go. Every double duty slot we manage to go above that, frees up room for whatever we want.

[helvetios]

Hey Guys,

It's been a while since I last posted here, but I followed the discussion over the last week and I am very interested in where this new approach leads us. As many here already mentioned, since we can't manipulate our draws as easily as blue decks do, I think it's even more important to have a good deck foundation. Being open to new things is important here, that doesn't mean any of you will have to cut things like Rhino or Sigarda, since it seems that at least 3 decktypes are crystallizing themselves. (and I'm saying this as a guy who thought of trying a BUG version and adding sigarda there, since you can shuffle her away with brainstorm. I am hopelessly in love with her)

Hats off to everyone who is contributing in this conversation! I'd like to contribute as well, since I have a little knowledge about statistics, but I have absolutely no idea how to use that knowledge in the context of mtg :frown:

Keep up the good work!

[Echelon]

@helvetios: All you need to do to contribute is to try and form a list using the requirements model we put up, that is all. I can repost it if you want.

@other contributors: I know you disagree on the high requirements I set and try to uphold, but try to see this through to the end. After this the SE methodology really kicks in and we evaluate which requirements are too strict (or not strict enough) and adjust our lists accordingly. Lowering them well before the end just sets us up for failure. Concluding that they're too strict to be realisable however is a perfectly viable outcome of the end product, provided that we actually get there.

[helvetios]

@Echelon: I need to head out now, but I'll come up with a list in the evening :)

[Navsi]

@Echelon

The big worry that I have here is that both of us seem to be stretching your rules, just in opposite directions.

- I have been shaving the card number requirements down where possible to 10/15/15/15 or so. Personally I don't think that playing subpar cards simply because they fulfil multiple roles is worth it.
- You've been stretching your definitions to keep the numbers high instead. I get your reasoning, but I still don't agree that we can group Deed in with the filtering cards, Arbor/Tower with ramp, or Witness as a finisher.

IMO we have to be more precise with our category definitions:

- Ramp: cards which, when drawn in the top 8 cards of the deck, allow us access to 4+ mana by turn three.
- Interaction: cards which provide ways of removing the opponent's threats, whether from the hand or the battlefield.
- Finisher: cards which either present a <=5 turn clock (i.e reliably swing for 4+) or uninteractable damage (i.e. DRS, Sorin), or both.
- Library manipulation: cards which get cards from our deck or graveyard into our hand faster than our natural draw, or give us selection.

[Echelon]

@Echelon

The big worry that I have here is that both of us seem to be stretching your rules, just in opposite directions.

- I have been shaving the card number requirements down where possible to 10/15/15/15 or so. Personally I don't think that playing subpar cards simply because they fulfil multiple roles is worth it.
- You've been stretching your definitions to keep the numbers high instead. I get your reasoning, but I still don't agree that we can group Deed in with the filtering cards, Arbor/Tower with ramp, or Witness as a finisher.

IMO we have to be more precise with our category definitions:

- Ramp: cards which, when drawn in the top 8 cards of the deck, allow us access to 4+ mana by turn three.
- Interaction: cards which provide ways of removing the opponent's threats, whether from the hand or the battlefield.
- Finisher: cards which either present a <=5 turn clock (i.e reliably swing for 4+) or uninteractable damage (i.e. DRS, Sorin), or both.
- Library manipulation: cards which get cards from our deck or graveyard into our hand faster than our natural draw, or give us selection.

Yeah, we're both going in different directions. I'm wondering though - in the list that I've put up so far, what multipurpose cards seem subpar to you? So far I've put up nothing we normally don't run, have I?

Brael stated a while back (page 245, post #4897) that Eternal Witness/Courser (or even Dryad Arbor) could be viewed as a finisher just as well since we put a lot of effort in clearing the opposing board. I agree with that. A finisher should be anything that, when left unchecked, kills your opponent. And does so with >1 damage/turn. Some cards do that job more easily than others, but I have no problem with doing it via bugbites.

CA is anything that causes you to end up with more cards than your opponent (or lets you filter through more cards than you would normally see). As such, any card that typically is played out as X for Y < X should be counted as such as you aim to end up with +(X-Y) cards over your opponent.

[Navsi]

One of the reasons I don't like treating Witness etc as a win condition is the comparison to Shardless. It's been mentioned at several points in the past in this thread that one of the reasons we have such a good matchup against Shardless is the deck's small number of true threats - Shardless Agent's 2 power beatdowns and Baleful Strix's 1/1 stats don't present a threatening enough clock to cause us trouble. It's the same the other way round- finishers which present 8+ turn clocks just aren't a problem for the majority of our opponents. We're giving them too much time to protect themselves, and it's also blanked by any creature in their own deck.

Card Advantage is a point I get you on. I understand the definition, but I don't agree that that's what the category should be. The definition I'm trying to make for those cards is library manipulation - we need a number of cards which smooth our draws, which get us removal when we need it and a finisher when we want to end the game. Deeds are great and should definitely be in the deck, but they don't help us to dig for whatever bit of our deck we are missing. Sometimes we need a Deed, yeah, but sometimes you're facing down a threat that demands Path, or you've just swept the board and need to jam that Sigarda. That's the category of cards I'm trying to define here. Sweepers are just a form of interaction. There just isn't a good word for it - "library manipulation" excludes Witness, draw excludes Top, filtering excludes Truths, etc.

[Echelon]

Wonderful realisation

We need to differentiate. Split CA from library manipulation/filtering. Most blue decks out there run 8 Ponder + Brainstorm, which we can probably agree on is pure library manipulation/filtering. To mimic that we'll need 8 of those too. Out of the 15/16 slots we defined as combined library manipulation/CA, that leaves us with 7/8 more pure CA slots to fill.

The same goes for the finisher category.

Updated slot distribution:
21-22 land
15/16 interaction/removal
8 library manipulation/filtering
7/8 CA
14 ramp (be a little liberal when it comes to these)
8 beaters (bugbites category)
7 gamechanging finishers (4 CMC+)

Where GSZ cannot count as beater + gamechanger. We'll just put it under the heaviest hitter category.

Does this make more sense?

[Navsi]

We need to differentiate. Split CA from library manipulation/filtering. Most blue decks out there run 8 Ponder + Brainstorm, which we can probably agree on is pure library manipulation/filtering. To mimic that we'll need 8 of those too. Out of the 15/16 slots we defined as combined library manipulation/CA, that leaves us with 7/8 more pure CA slots to fill.

The same goes for the finisher category.

Updated slot distribution:
21-22 land
15/16 interaction/removal
8 library manipulation/filtering
7/8 CA
14 ramp (be a little liberal when it comes to these)
8 beaters (bugbites category)
7 gamechanging finishers (4 CMC+)

Where GSZ cannot count as beater + gamechanger. We'll just put it under the heaviest hitter.

Does this make more sense?

I don't know if non-finisher beaters are something we necessarily need. Sure they're nice to have, the ability to turn a Witness sideways is nice, but it's not like they are actually needed to fulfil a specific role the deck wants. Not having access to any 2-power men doesn't actually negatively impact our plan in the same way that having no removal, or no true finishers does.

I think we're going to end up more on 6 CA / 8-10 card selection, by the way. The only real CA we commonly run is in sweepers and Truths (and now Tracker) - but we always have at least 8 selection cards at minimum (3 Top 4 GSZ 1 Witness).

[Echelon]

I don't know if non-finisher beaters are something we necessarily need. Sure they're nice to have, the ability to turn a Witness sideways is nice, but it's not like they are actually needed to fulfil a specific role the deck wants. Not having access to any 2-power men doesn't actually negatively impact our plan in the same way that having no removal, or no true finishers does.

I think we're going to end up more on 6 CA / 8-10 card selection, by the way. The only real CA we commonly run is in sweepers and Truths (and now Tracker) - but we always have at least 8 selection cards at minimum (3 Top 4 GSZ 1 Witness).

I think we do need the smaller bodies. If our number of big bodies matches the number (or is smaller than that number) of removal spells our opponents have, we'll have a hard time coming out on top. We need those small bodies to soak up a bunch of removal so our real threats survive. The question is how many big bodies do we need and how much cannon fodder should we have? I mean, we get a lot of fodder regardless of whether we specify them or not.

I'm torn on viewing GSZ as full fledged card selection. It can't get you removal where you often do want it.

I also think Courser of Kruphix (due to the number of shuffle effects we run) should be viewed as a card selection card.

[Navsi]

The advantage of our bigger bodies is that they are often resistant to those same removal spells. Obviously Swords and Force are relevant, but Bolt and Decay don't catch any of our big threats really, and playing more little guys is just giving them targets. We don't need to put the fodder in its own category because the number of creatures that fit it isn't relevant to our game plan.

If Witness is selection, Zenith -> Witness is selection too. I didn't include Courser in the ones I mentioned because it isn't a core card - it's a fringe option if you want to hedge harder against aggro strategies - especially now that Tracker already provides a more effective midrange beater/CA option.

[Echelon]

One card to consider is Terminus. That is a problem we need to deal with. A couple of small bodies might provoke it, which suddenly makes them very relevant to our gameplan. The same holds true when one wants to deal with Jace (or at least keep him off ult'ing). I think Tracker plays an important role here since it's pretty aggressive @3 power and a case can perhaps be made for Qasali Pridemage. GSZ into kicking Jace in the nuts and threatening to blow up Counterbalance when your opponent looks at you funny sounds helpful.

A plus for Courser when compared to Tracker is that it's Lightning Bolt-proof and can block some stuff Tracker can't for days.

I'm following your lead on GSZ as manipulation, by the way.

[Navsi]

I don't think the Miracles matchup is one we can out-threat pre-sideboard.

They generally have 14-18 "hard" removal spells:
- 4 Terminus
- 4 Force
- 4 Swords
- 1 Council's Judgment
- 1-2 Counterspell
- 0-3 Snapcaster

We can't get our threats against Miracles that high before Sideboard - we're going to need to side in Slaughter Games.

The best solution for the little creatures plan would be to treat them similarly to how you ran Phyrexian Tower, and have each creature that doesn't threaten to end the game fast count as 0.5 finisher. So if the spread is, for example:

4 GSZ
1 Sigarda
2 Rhino
1 Sorin
1 Tracker
---
9 'full' finishers

2 Deathrite
1 Witness
1 Courser
1 QPM
---
2.5 'slow' finishers

Putting us on a 11.5. Just as an example.

[Echelon]

I like your approach!

To recap everything so far:

Requirements:
- Must be able to go over the top of most opponents
- Must be able to handle/mitigate mana denial strategies
- Must be able to break through lock pieces
- Must be able to handle opposing threats on the board
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce green mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce black mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce white mana on turn 2
- No card may cost >6 mana
- No card may have triple mana of any 1 colour in its manacost
- GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value
- Creatures must either provide mandatory utility effects, be very hard to kill or have a very high power/mana ratio
- Ramp slots may not cost >2 mana

We lose:
- Against quick combo.
- When our threats get dealt with (looking at you miracle).
- When the opponent goes bigger.
- When the opponent disrupt the explorer plan so that we play a slow deck that dies to Daze

Suggested mana curve:
17 CMC 1 cards
10 CMC 2 cards
5 CMC 3 cards
4 CMC 4 cards
2 CMC 5 cards
1 CMC 6 card

Updated slot distribution:
21-22 land
15/16 interaction/removal
8-10 library manipulation/filtering
6-8 CA
14 ramp (be a little liberal when it comes to these)
12 finishers

With the redefinition of our finishers category we can lower that number a bit.

Projecting the list I have so far:
19-20 lands
2 Phyrexian Tower - 1 ramp slot
4 GSZ - 4 library manipulation/card selection, 4 ramp and 4 finisher slots
4 Veteran Explorer - 4 ramp slots
3 Deathrite Shaman - 3 ramp slots and 1.5 finisher slots
1 Dryad Arbor - 1 ramp slot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder - 1 ramp slot
4 Cabal Therapy - 4 interaction/removal slots
3 Pernicious Deed - 3 interaction/removal and 3 CA slots
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis - 1 interaction/removal, 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Tireless Tracker - 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Eternal Witness - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher
1 Courser of Kruphix - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher

This fills:
14 ramp slots
8.5 finisher slots
5 CA slots
6 card selection/library manipulation slots
8 removal/interaction slots

With 24 cards + 21/22 lands. So that's 15/16 cards to go, with these slots to fill:
3.5 finisher
3-5 card selection/library manipulation
1-3 CA
7/8 removal/interaction

I want to add 1 QPM for some utility vs. Miracles and assorted other stuff (worst case scenario it's a 3/3 beater for 2 mana) and we've been building towards 4 SDT, which is pure library manipulation. This brings us at:
19-20 lands
2 Phyrexian Tower - 1 ramp slot
4 GSZ - 4 library manipulation/card selection, 4 ramp and 4 finisher slots
4 Veteran Explorer - 4 ramp slots
3 Deathrite Shaman - 3 ramp slots and 1.5 finisher slots
1 Dryad Arbor - 1 ramp slot
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder - 1 ramp slot
4 Cabal Therapy - 4 interaction/removal slots
3 Pernicious Deed - 3 interaction/removal and 3 CA slots
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis - 1 interaction/removal, 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Tireless Tracker - 1 CA and 1 finisher slot
1 Eternal Witness - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher slot
1 Courser of Kruphix - 1 card selection, 0.5 finisher slot
1 Qasali Pridemage - 1 interaction/removal slot, 0.5 finisher slot
4 Sensei's Divining Top - 4 library manipulation/card selection slots

For:
14 ramp slots
9 finisher slots
5 CA slots
10 card selection/library manipulation slots
9 removal/interaction slots

With 10/11 cards left and
3 finisher
1-3 CA
6/7 removal/interaction
to go.

At this point Courser of Kruphix is no longer mandatory, as that'd leave us wanting for 0-1 card selection/library manipulation slots and another 0.5 finisher. If needed, Courser can be replaced for another card.

[cherson]

just a short interjection to the SG discussion. my first round this weekend was unfortunately the mirror and game two he SG the rhinos and I was like F*** u.
pages ago I asked u exactly that question and it prompt happened to me, wow.

so in my opinion the win conditions (full+slow finishers) have to be spread on more shoulders, I think I will cut at least one rhino and add baneslayer even though I can't dig it.

I know u discussed the different meanings of the distribution list but what exactly in included in every point?
21-22 land
15/16 interaction/removal (m.pulse, vindicate, abzan charm, cabal therapy, pte / but do u also count drs and scooze for example as they interact?)
8-10 library manipulation/filtering (vex, e witness, sakura, gsz?, top, tracker? and even fetch lands?)
6-8 CA (e. witness, truths, abzan charm)
14 ramp (vex, sakura, drs, gsz?)
12 finishers

sorry if I missed the definition but I think it would be helpful to define the different points to make it easier for everybody posting a deck and mentioning the split.
for me it is very interesting to see how many different roles our cards can play.

FOUND IT:
- Ramp: cards which, when drawn in the top 8 cards of the deck, allow us access to 4+ mana by turn three.
- Interaction: cards which provide ways of removing the opponent's threats, whether from the hand or the battlefield.
- Finisher: cards which either present a <=5 turn clock (i.e reliably swing for 4+) or uninteractable damage (i.e. DRS, Sorin), or both.
- Library manipulation: cards which get cards from our deck or graveyard into our hand faster than our natural draw, or give us selection.

but we could add graveyard to the interaction -> drs, scooze

[Echelon]

Alright, I'm finishing this list. I'm choosing a 22 land manabase to make the most use of the Veteran Explorers and Sakura-Tribe Elder, so that leaves me 10 cards.

I need to fill:
3 finisher
1-3 CA
6/7 removal/interaction

For removal, I'm picking 6 Abrupt Decay/Path to Exile. The CA card becomes a Meren of Clan Nel Toth, since she has some affinity with a number of the cards we currently run. 3 cards to go. Courser of Kruphix goes out, since we need more high end meat. Those 4 cards become 3 Siege Rhino and 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons.

The finished list, sorted by card type and CMC:
Creatures (17)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifacts (4):
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sorceries & instants (16):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments (1):
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Lands (22):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

I'm missing a card. Counting is hard. Oh well. Since we've filled all necessary slots this can be anything from Scavenging Ooze to Vindicate to another Siege Rhino, the Courser we dropped or the Painful Truths we didn't manage to fit in. Meren could be swapped out for another Painful Truths to keep things streamlined.

Is it just me or is this by-the-numbers build pretty much what we normally run..? The only difference here being that we run a full 4 SDT. OMG, FFS lol. The one thing we have learned is that we're free to switch up finisher-only cards as we see fit. If at some point we deem it necessary to lower the number of Siege Rhinos to incorporate more planeswalkers to combat Miracles, we can do so without problem.

It does put the "those numbers are too high", "there aren't enough viable cards in that category" and "you're going to have to play subpar cards" pleads into perspective though. No balls, no glory and Siege Rhino prevails.

[Navsi]

The list you have fits things, true, but there are still a few things I'm not certain about.

- 4 Tops: Painful Truths might want to take one of these slots. Filtering vs. straight Draw. Tops are a little awkward in multiples, but I guess we can always put one on top and shuffle it away.

- I still think the number of ramp cards you're playing is too high. What odds would you be comfortable with for getting a ramp card in your opener? 80%? 90%?

- I think we should look into the other two lists - the ones which swap out Meren/Arbor for either Stoneforges or Planeswalkers.

[Brael]

I think we do need the smaller bodies. If our number of big bodies matches the number (or is smaller than that number) of removal spells our opponents have, we'll have a hard time coming out on top. We need those small bodies to soak up a bunch of removal so our real threats survive. The question is how many big bodies do we need and how much cannon fodder should we have? I mean, we get a lot of fodder regardless of whether we specify them or not.

I'm torn on viewing GSZ as full fledged card selection. It can't get you removal where you often do want it.

I also think Courser of Kruphix (due to the number of shuffle effects we run) should be viewed as a card selection card.

Courser is really selection and advantage. Combined with Tracker or Top it's advantage, combined with GSZ and shuffles it's selection.



I'm missing a card. Counting is hard. Oh well. Since we've filled all necessary slots this can be anything from Scavenging Ooze to Vindicate to another Siege Rhino, the Courser we dropped or the Painful Truths we didn't manage to fit in. Meren could be swapped out for another Painful Truths to keep things streamlined.


I'm trying my flex slots out as Dark Confidants. They work well with top, are pure advantage, hit hard enough to end the game (anything 2+ power does really), and are just as non GSZ'able as a Painful Truths, except Bob also makes my opponent use a removal spell, which makes everything else more likely to survive. So far they haven't been all that impressive but I don't think I'm using them right. I find they almost always die instantly, but I think that's a sequencing problem on my end.

[Echelon]

The list you have fits things, true, but there are still a few things I'm not certain about.

- 4 Tops: Painful Truths might want to take one of these slots. Filtering vs. straight Draw. Tops are a little awkward in multiples, but I guess we can always put one on top and shuffle it away.

- I still think the number of ramp cards you're playing is too high. What odds would you be comfortable with for getting a ramp card in your opener? 80%? 90%?

- I think we should look into the other two lists - the ones which swap out Meren/Arbor for either Stoneforges or Planeswalkers.

Didn't we want to be @4 Tops b/c of consistency?

The ramp portion is fine. It helps you power out the good stuff, draw cards off Tracker and sink mana in Tops. It'll get you to the late game more quickly and helps you filter once you get there. This just is the point where that particular list needs to go from theory to real games. I won't get to play in the forseeable future so I fear this falls on someone else.

Looking into those other two lists is fine by me. Let's have it.

[Navsi]

We want the Top slot to be a consistency tool, but it doesn't necessarily have to be Top. Going from three to four tops increases our odds of getting one early (first 10 cards) from 47% to 52%. Might be worth it, considering we can shuffle it away pretty easily if we get a second.

I understand what the ramp cards do, I just don't think the % of games where we draw triple-vet/ste is worth the inclusion of the fifth one (or maybe even the fourth). Particularly when even with just 3 vets and 4 gsz, we still have very high odds of getting one in the first few turns, and we have enough 2-drops etc to get by without them in a lot of matchups. It's not like we need the ramp to play our interaction cards (other than Deed).

[Echelon]

We can either shuffle it away (since it can place itself on top of the library) or bait out a Daze/FoW with it to clear the way to other stuff.

What we can use that ramp for is to power out big threats quickly, which can cause all sorts of havoc for our opponent. Opening a hand with 3 Explorers/Tribe Elders seem like good times to me. That's the kind of opener that leads to T2 Sigarda or T3 Sorin.

[Ricardio]

4 SDT seems excessive, 2-3 seems like the sweet spot, for me at least. I agree with painful truths being raw CA that we need in some situations.

@Echelon: I read your comment a page or so back that was thoroughly assaulting me on a personal level and I thought about it before responding. I am not sure what you thought when you felt that was ok to say but know that I wasn't personally attacking you. I was being sarcastic and don't use "Connotation isn't inherent over the internet" because I am consistently sarcastic. Then to go immediately after Rubble when he is probably one of the most positive personalities on this thread is not acceptable. Your outburst is totally uncharacteristic of the understanding culture we have cultivated in this thread. We meaning each and every person that has contributed to this deck. I understand you and others are working hard on your goal to make the deck better through the means you best understand and I would never stifle that.

[rubblekill]

Then to go immediately after Rubble when he is probably one of the most positive personalities on this thread...

Thank you darling, I have always known you had a thing for me. I do reciprocate your sentiment, really.

I am probably stupid but what does it mean "card x is a 0.5 ramp card" etc etc?

[cherson]

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
1 Abzan Charm

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower or Stronghold
1 Karakas



lands: 21
interactions/removal: 16 (2*0,5 drs, 0,5 scooze, 1 vindicate, 1 abzan, 4 cabal therapy, 3*0,5 p deed, 4 abrupt decay, 3 pte)
library/ca: 15 (4*0,5 vex, 1 e witness, 0,5 sakura, 4 gsz, 1 p truths, 1 abzan, 3*0,5 deed, 3 top, 1 t tracker)
ramp: 11 (4 vex, 1 sakura, 2 drs, 4 gsz)
finisher: 13 (3 siege,2*0,5 drs, 1 sigarda, 4 gsz, 1 baneslayer, 1 scooze, 1 t tracker)

I stick to the 21 lands because I didn't face any mana issues so far.
0,5 drs and scooze interaction/removal because they interact with the graveyard basically every game.
0,5 vex and sakura because they shuffle the bib only and we lose a creature.
0,5 p deed removal and CA because it isn't a spot removal but 'interacts/removes' the board completely.
0,5 drs finisher because it is very slow and easy to remove.

to be honest I didn't test Sorin nor abzan but I like the synergies they have that is why I will definitely start testing them.
I read your concerns abt abzan but I want to try it. I guess it will be the second painful truths or maelstrom pulse if it is underwhelming.

CMC:
1: 14
2: 6
3: 8
4: 3
5: 2

I don't like the 3 and 2 split but as Echelon already said it seems the list ends up the same as before except a few 'new' cards like tracker and sorin.

really looking forward to your comments.

[Whitefaces]

I am gone for a weekend and shit like this happens....Now, I'm reading through what looks like a damn math experiment gone wrong with all this belcher esque analysis. I believe over quantification will only lead to frustration. Nic fit is a labor of love, don't fall into madness over making the numbers perfect.

Also, Echelon, I am disappoint.

How is poring over numbers, theories and statistics to make a deck better NOT a labor of love? Echelon nailed it when he said sticking your head in the sand isn't going to solve anything. Yes, jamming Ajani, Mentor of heroes is cool. So is winning and taking this deck up a level.


One can cry like a bitch when losing to Miracles or one can try to do something about it. The former will not change the outcome of the Miracles MU, the latter will most definetely not make it worse. Now humor me and explain why the former should call the latter disappointing? You disappoint me man, sticking your head in the sand and hoping for things to somehow magically change in your favor. How is that more useful than what we're trying to do? Look man, this is a labor of love, why do you think we're putting so much effort into it? Heck, look at it as you would at a relationship. Sometimes in a relationship you've got to work on the issues you and your significant other have. That's what we're doing, rather than take the easy route and run off to the corner whore.

Exactly. It's akin to a child being told something they don't want to hear so they cup their ears with their hands and shout nonsense.



@Echelon: I read your comment a page or so back that was thoroughly assaulting me on a personal level and I thought about it before responding. I am not sure what you thought when you felt that was ok to say but know that I wasn't personally attacking you. I was being sarcastic and don't use "Connotation isn't inherent over the internet" because I am consistently sarcastic. Then to go immediately after Rubble when he is probably one of the most positive personalities on this thread is not acceptable. Your outburst is totally uncharacteristic of the understanding culture we have cultivated in this thread. We meaning each and every person that has contributed to this deck. I understand you and others are working hard on your goal to make the deck better through the means you best understand and I would never stifle that.

Personally assaulting you, seriously?

Echelon, among others, work tirelessly on this deck and have been for a long time. Whether you agree or disagree with what they're saying is another thing, and you can discuss that. But don't bash well thought out posts by proclaiming that they're 'losing the Nic Fit way' or whatever is going through your head. Back up your arguments with actual lists, testing, data or results.

[Brael]

I am probably stupid but what does it mean "card x is a 0.5 ramp card" etc etc?

In general, it means the card fills the role but it doesn't fill it well. For example, Phyrexian Tower is a ramp card but it can't accelerate you early, if your opening is a Top or Therapy you can't use Phyrexian Tower, and if you have to Tower away a DRS you're also giving up some mana in future turns in exchange for more mana now.

An example here could be Courser of Kruphix, as a ramp card it probably does help accelerate you to 5 or 6 mana (depending on your hand), but that's just through making more land drops rather than true acceleration. Courser will never allow you to have more mana on hand than the turn number.

GSZ could be another .5 ramp card because while a GSZ for 0 turns on Dryad Arbor or for 1 turns on Veteran Explorer (if you can sac it), ideally you want GSZ to turn into a threat rather than an enabler for a threat.

Basically, it's saying that the card fills the role but at a lower degree of efficiency. Back to the Courser example, at several points I've mentioned it's worth .35 cards. In this case that's derived mathematically as 22 lands/61 cards, and that same math makes it being worth more with Top. In this case it's quantifying value, where as something like Bob is worth a flat 1 card/turn, and Tracker is worth a lot of cards (the verdict on how many is still out, but I'm sticking to my earlier description that it's a 4-5 power Ancestral Vision).


We want the Top slot to be a consistency tool, but it doesn't necessarily have to be Top. Going from three to four tops increases our odds of getting one early (first 10 cards) from 47% to 52%. Might be worth it, considering we can shuffle it away pretty easily if we get a second.

The biggest problem I've seen with drawing two is that while you can eventually shuffle them away, it's a long term plan to do so. It's a rare game where I've found myself able to shuffle away a Top in the first say 4-5 turns. At that point it's a dead draw. That said, I think that having the backup is still worth it, we're very reliant on shuffle effects and the opponent destroying our top in response to a shuffle is usually the best way to use your second early. I find Abrupt Decays really like to hit them since we have so few other targets (especially since people haven't figured out how strong Tracker is yet).

[rubblekill]

In general, it means the card fills the role but it doesn't fill it well. For example, Phyrexian Tower is a ramp card but it can't accelerate you early, if your opening is a Top or Therapy you can't use Phyrexian Tower, and if you have to Tower away a DRS you're also giving up some mana in future turns in exchange for more mana now.

An example here could be Courser of Kruphix, as a ramp card it probably does help accelerate you to 5 or 6 mana (depending on your hand), but that's just through making more land drops rather than true acceleration. Courser will never allow you to have more mana on hand than the turn number.

GSZ could be another .5 ramp card because while a GSZ for 0 turns on Dryad Arbor or for 1 turns on Veteran Explorer (if you can sac it), ideally you want GSZ to turn into a threat rather than an enabler for a threat.

Basically, it's saying that the card fills the role but at a lower degree of efficiency. Back to the Courser example, at several points I've mentioned it's worth .35 cards. In this case that's derived mathematically as 22 lands/61 cards, and that same math makes it being worth more with Top. In this case it's quantifying value, where as something like Bob is worth a flat 1 card/turn, and Tracker is worth a lot of cards (the verdict on how many is still out, but I'm sticking to my description that it's a 4-5 power Ancestral Vision).

Thank you so much!

E: btw, isn't tracker a nonbo with deed?

[Brael]

Back to the SE Fit idea, a page ago we were discussing cutting Rhino and Sigarda. I think that's wrong if we're in white, but is white actually the best third color to hit our deck specifications? We also have the options of straight GB (enables Hymn), Red (no Slaughter Games splash, Huntmaster, many other RG cards), and Blue (expensive duals, lower threat count, maybe FoW, actual cantrips).

In Blue I wonder about some sort of Shardless BUG/Nic Fit cross, where we could use Agent/Strix to generate value (bet blue could get a 21 creature list where everything is CA) and gain some actual Brainstorms rather than going through so many hoops to get a similar effect and greatly improves combo matchups.

Red on the other hand enables some reach in Bolt, a non splash Slaughter Games, Huntmaster as another beefy 4 drop, Domri Rade as CA, removal, and a finisher (and it gains from Top), and so on, maybe even Bloodbraid with Top manipulation. I bet Miracles would have a hell of a time between Slaughter Games and Xenagos, God of Revels. Maybe even some version of Punishing Fit, that's an archetype I've never played but I could see it working with this model though Punishing Fit might be one too many mana sinks. It's certainly a good option for CA though, it even opens up REB as another SB option for interaction against combo.

[Brael]

Thank you so much!

E: btw, isn't tracker a nonbo with deed?

NP.

In theory, Tracker is a nonbo with deed but in practice I'm not seeing it to be an issue. In a similar vein of things, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman are also both nonbos but it doesn't stop us because the upside of the cards is just so high.

What I'm finding is I can usually pop Deed at 2 and have Tracker dodge it. The clue tokens can be wiped out, but I've had so much CA lately that I'm using my clues quickly. They're a very good mana sink (and I've been lowering my curve so I can use more sinks) and really just cracking a single clue puts you ahead. Getting the opportunity to crack several just puts you way ahead.

There's also a bit of sequencing in play here. If you need an early Deed you're probably playing it, using it, and then following up the turn after with Tracker. I haven't run into a situation yet where I need to Tracker, get clues, and then use Deed.

[sdematt]

I 100% agree with rubblekill. This number thing is going nowhere. As an example:





Instead of theorycrafting, play a few games and you will see that Sigarda is an absolute key card and 100% uncuttable. I would say it is THE most uncuttable card in the deck. Cut literally anything else before Sigarda.

I'd cut myself before I cut Sigarda.

[sdematt]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
14 threats

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
17 staples/removal

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
6 Filter and Draw

2 Sorin, Grim Vampire-Person
2 Control Walkers

22 Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

61 total. I'd consider cutting a Heath for another Painful Truths, or Vindicate.

Sideboard

3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons or Garruk Relentless (I feel like Sigarda #2, Tao may disagree, but I'd just want to increase my frequency).
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami
1 From the Ashes
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vindicate/Sorin
1 Open (combo hate, likely)

My reasoning is as follows:

Maindeck isn't very different. Whatever. Vindicate could take the place of a Sorin, but whatever works for ya. Safekeeper is something to try to help Rhinos get through the STP.decks. Is it amazing? No, but it is hard to beat. Plus, it games well against Combo with Teeg.

Sideboard is for the following reasons:

Thoughtseize for Combo. Need dat interaction and to give you time. Let's be real - we're slow as fuck.

Teeg for Miracles, Combo, assorted flavours of bullshit. I agree, shutting down GSZ is a pain in the ass, but sometimes, you need him.

Control piece - Sigarda #2 is there for Miracles and the Liliana.deck. She's gameover against all the midrangey bullshit in the format, and does wonders against Miracles. I don't see a second copy as a problem, especially if one gets countered. Could also just be a Relentless, that's for testing to decide. Relentless is far less fragile, but worse against stuff like Jace/Liliana. Sigarda can break you being behind against onboard Jace AND Liliana. Garruk cannot.

Sweep - I foresee a Port reprinting in Eternal Masters, so every person who wanted to get into Legacy might try DnT. Toxic is never bad, and Charm has a little bit more use and a bit faster against, say, Elves. It's two cards to shore up matchups that are probably still favourable, but I'd never want to lose.

Tsunami as the control breaker.

From the Ashes as your trump to Eldrazi. I split this with Tsunami since From the Ashes is only meh against Miracles. Ruination might be better so you have two options, but whatever.

Needles for Jace, Sneak, Grizzle, Batterskull, or whatever. I don't care. Needle good.

Didn't get room for the Vindicate main, so here it is. Could be main instead of a Sorin, we'll see.

Open slot for either combo hate, or a Grip or something.

[Echelon]

4 SDT seems excessive, 2-3 seems like the sweet spot, for me at least. I agree with painful truths being raw CA that we need in some situations.

@Echelon: I read your comment a page or so back that was thoroughly assaulting me on a personal level and I thought about it before responding. I am not sure what you thought when you felt that was ok to say but know that I wasn't personally attacking you. I was being sarcastic and don't use "Connotation isn't inherent over the internet" because I am consistently sarcastic. Then to go immediately after Rubble when he is probably one of the most positive personalities on this thread is not acceptable. Your outburst is totally uncharacteristic of the understanding culture we have cultivated in this thread. We meaning each and every person that has contributed to this deck. I understand you and others are working hard on your goal to make the deck better through the means you best understand and I would never stifle that.

I missed the sarcasm and that's my bad. I honestly am sorry. By nature I tend to turn into a charging bull when offended and that is not cool.


Post

I appreciate your post, but Ricardio is right. I read something and took that the wrong way. In turn, I performed a bullcharge. That was not OK. It's my mistake, not his. I'm in the wrong here.

[maharis]

Miracles needs special attention to be beatable. I'm going to set this down here, in bold, because of how important I feel this is:

Opting out of the Miracles matchup is not viable. We can throw away a lot of matchups. He can say eh, I feel like losing to Sneak/Show today. Hell, every time we set foot in a tournament room, we're acknowledge that we're basically open season for anyone who wants to play Belcher, Oops, MUD (not eldrazi), 12post, and Reanimator. Every single one of those decks preys on us super hard, and while we CAN win vs them, yes, certainly, it is not easy, it is not fun, and it is not something that we will prepare for.

Miracles is likely to be one of the most popular decks at GP's Columbus and Prague. Miracles is likely to gain a tremendous amount of people playing it following Eternal Masters -- I expect a lot of the deck to be in that set, and it requires relatively few duals compared to most decks, plus it has a lot of overlap with Modern in its staples. It's very attractive for people just getting into the format to build the deck. We simply cannot afford to dismiss the Miracles matchup -- if we were to do so, I believe it would waste all of the effort that Echelon, Navsi, Brael, and everyone else has put into rebuilding the deck from the math up over the past week.

I firmly believe that Slaughter Games is one of the best ways to attack the deck. Jace is basically the entire problem. We have no good ways of dealing with him. We can try to run Pulse/Vindicate/Unmaking, but those cards can only be run as a 2-of in some combination at most, and since all of them can be countered, it's unlikely that they will be able to punch through the counterwall and actually make it to Jace. We can try Mistcutter Hydra, but then we run into the problem of Swords, Path, Snap+spot, and Terminus -- or even just being blocked by Snap or Containment Priest and then disposed of at sorcery speed. We could try Banefire and just burning them out of the game, or fucking Gaea's Revenge them out. Tsunami, while disingenuous with Carpet of Flowers, is still lights out for them -- I don't like Choke because it dies too much. Shardless can get out of it via Decay off of Forest/Swamp (or just drawing lands), which they're worried about because Blood Moon already anyway, and Miracles is boarding in Wear/Tear vs us ANYWAY, so why give them another target.

The 8post version was originally worked on as a way to beat Miracles, but even going for a Cloudpost hypermana option is less attractive vs Mentor, because they actually have a super relevant and reasonable clock. Like, you die in two turns, max, when they have a Mentor out. I've died in one turn before. It happens -- sometimes they just play a billion Brainstorms and Ponders and Swords their last token because really do they care at that point.

Stripping their wincons and attacking their deck is still the best way to beat them, I feel. Slaughter is the best element of this, because it doesn't get countered and it doesn't use the graveyard. I am not sure how else to attack them. Gaddock Teeg did very little, I felt. Boarding in cards that beat Mentor feels awful when you can't beat Jace. Tireless Tracker lets you draw 2-3 cards on average, which is nice -- and my r6 opponent commented that Tracker and Painful Truths were very worrying to him, because it's bad for Miracles to fight a deck with a lot of raw card advantage. I'm reminded that Shardless has a positive win rate vs Miracles, so maybe we need more Ancestral Recalls...I don't feel like that beats Jace, though. We'd need to be able to pressure it somehow, and we can't really do that into Terminus.

Damn, this thread moves fast. Anyway...

I don't think Slaughter Games is a bad solution, but it doesn't do anything against Jace on board, and I don't know if I want to bet that I'll draw my 2-of in the board before they draw their 3-4 of and stick one. If we are taking the matchup seriously, SG is clearly a must-have and good tool, but has to come with something to threaten a jace that resolves.

For this reason, I still think Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the best card to have against Miracles in BGW. It is basically a reverse Bitterblossom that closes fast when you need it (emblem) and threatens whatever they put on the board. My build has two main, just because I'm essentially ceding combo matchups and want to dominate anything fair, including miracles, then just board into what turns out to be a different deck for games 2 & 3 against combo decks. Though I have not tried the Taiga/SG package yet, I think that's my next move because I think it just solves a ton of problems.

Also, I never would've thought Tracker had any chance of making it in Legacy until I saw it in action at the Pro Tour. Card is very good and can run away with the game a la Young Pyromancer. Looking forward to hearing how it works out for Legacy players.

Speaking of cards that take over games, I have been playing a Bant Deathblade deck with a Titania and that thing is a straight up get out of jail free card. I don't know if it's as good when you don't also have Knight and Wasteland but every time I look at my Nic Fit build I want to include the package with Safekeeper (since it also gets me access to Teeg lock vs. Miracles).

Trouble is running into a space issue with Rhinos & Meren & Titania & Sigarda.... and Dragonlord Dromoka, which is also a really good anti-Miracles card.... and Thragtusk. Seems like there might be a difference in philosophy emerging between jamrhinos.dec and a more traditional ramp/zenith deck (that may also just want Pod as an extra GSZ effect for value).

[Brael]

I like your approach!

To recap everything so far:

Requirements:
- Must be able to go over the top of most opponents
- Must be able to handle/mitigate mana denial strategies
- Must be able to break through lock pieces
- Must be able to handle opposing threats on the board
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce green mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce black mana on turn 1
- Manabase must be able to consistently produce white mana on turn 2
- No card may cost >6 mana
- No card may have triple mana of any 1 colour in its manacost
- GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value
- Creatures must either provide mandatory utility effects, be very hard to kill or have a very high power/mana ratio
- Ramp slots may not cost >2 mana


I want to add two more requirements. I mentioned this in a previous post but it probably got lost in my rambling. Every card can either be classified as a Baneslayer (the value is through remaining on the board), a Mulldrifter (the value is in casting), or a Titan (on board and cast provide value). In general, the more Baneslayers you play the better each gets because you overload removal, these are cards that make your opponents removal good like Deathrite Shaman. Mulldrifters get value by making your opponents removal bad like Eternal Witness, these are cards you can play in any amount. Titans are both, and are the most powerful option like Siege Rhino and nearly any Planeswalker. Ideally, when you play Baneslayers you want to play a lot of them, but when you play Mulldrifters/Titans any amount is good.

Rather than state GSZ'able cards need to provide intrinsic value I think we should break down what GSZ should find. For example, a high mana GSZ should get a Titan (Siege Rhino covers this if we stay in white). But we should have an assortment (say 2-3 each) of Baneslayers and Mulldrifters to find with GSZ at lower mana. Most notably, this is where our GSZ utility comes from. Courser, Tracker, DRS, Veteran, and Ooze are examples of Baneslayers, I think we're good on that front. Where we seem to be lacking is in Mulldrifter territory. Eternal Witness is one, Qasali Pridemage is one (QPM could arguably be a Titan though), we probably want one more... the only one that comes to mind is Sakura Tribe Elder, are there others? Note that in white SFM fills this role as a Mulldrifter, but it's not a GSZ target.

So to sum up the requirements:
GSZ'able cards must have intrinsic value

GSZ for 4 or more should include at least # (3?) targets that provide immediate advantage in addition to incremental advantage every turn
GSZ for 3 or less should include at least # (3?) targets that provide instant advantage and # (3?) targets that provide incremental advantage every turn.

[square_two]

Rather than state GSZ'able cards need to provide intrinsic value I think we should break down what GSZ should find. For example, a high mana GSZ should get a Titan (Siege Rhino covers this if we stay in white). But we should have an assortment (say 2-3 each) of Baneslayers and Mulldrifters to find with GSZ at lower mana. Most notably, this is where our GSZ utility comes from. Courser, Tracker, DRS, Veteran, and Ooze are examples of Baneslayers, I think we're good on that front. Where we seem to be lacking is in Mulldrifter territory. Eternal Witness is one, Qasali Pridemage is one (QPM could arguably be a Titan though), we probably want one more... the only one that comes to mind is Sakura Tribe Elder, are there others? Note that in white SFM fills this role as a Mulldrifter, but it's not a GSZ target.


I think the major benefit of SFM is that she turns all of your Mulldrifters into potential Baneslayers as well. Fetching for Arbor and then suiting up the little tree can turn a game around. Any creature can start to be likewise suited up once you have landed the initial SFM. I feel that Tracker operates as a Titan if you are able to play a land or fetch right after playing him. I don't think any opponent can allow him to live for more than a turn or two or else we just gain overwhelming card advantage.

[Brael]

I think the major benefit of SFM is that she turns all of your Mulldrifters into potential Baneslayers as well. Fetching for Arbor and then suiting up the little tree can turn a game around. Any creature can start to be likewise suited up once you have landed the initial SFM. I feel that Tracker operates as a Titan if you are able to play a land or fetch right after playing him. I don't think any opponent can allow him to live for more than a turn or two or else we just gain overwhelming card advantage.

In the case of Tireless Tracker, it might act like it has an ETB effect when we play it, but that's not as true when we GSZ it. By GSZ'ing it we need to already be at 4 mana, and then we need to have a 5th to play. Not only is that 5th land harder to get down than the 4th, but if you have the 5th in most situations I think you would rather just play it and GSZ Rhino rather than GSZ Tracker and then get some clues (not in every situation of course, but in many I think you would rather have a threat than CA, the exception being if you're low/out of cards and can pop several clues on the next turn)

Edit: SFM basically adds 3 more cards to the deck that potentially give incremental value. I see the power in it, but it does make other cards weaker. You lose 7 potential green slots by doing so. Note the difference in conversation between the SFM and non SFM builds. The SFM ones are compromising their slot numbers all over the place... less ramp, less removal, less threats, less land in order to accommodate those 7 slots. The biggest problem non SFM builds are having is in figuring out if you want 3 or 4 Rhinos.

[Tao]

In the case of Tireless Tracker, it might act like it has an ETB effect when we play it, but that's not as true when we GSZ it. By GSZ'ing it we need to already be at 4 mana, and then we need to have a 5th to play. Not only is that 5th land harder to get down than the 4th, but if you have the 5th in most situations I think you would rather just play it and GSZ Rhino rather than GSZ Tracker and then get some clues (not in every situation of course, but in many I think you would rather have a threat than CA, the exception being if you're low/out of cards and can pop several clues on the next turn)


The trick is to only search him when you are flooded. You GSZ him followed by a fetchland and wait. Then fetch in response to the opponent's removal. In many situations this is a much better play than a Rhino in grindy matchups when the opponent most likely has removal and neither player is close to dying.

Tracker is by no means a must-play though. He is a solid mid-game option as a 1-off. I think he is much better than Courser in that role.

[Tao]

edit: probably not funny

[helvetios]

Hey, finally came around to make a list:


21 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 marsh flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower (+1Ramp)

16
3 Veteran Explorer (3 ramp)
3 Deathrite Shaman (3 ramp, 1.5 finisher)
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder (1 ramp)
1 Scavenging Ooze (1 Finisher, 0.5 Interaction)
1 Tireless Tracker (1 CA, 1 Finisher)
1 Eternal Witness (1 CA, 0.5 Finisher)
4 Siege Rhino (4 Finisher)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (1 Finisher)

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (1 Interaction, 1 CA, 1 Finisher)

2 Path to exile (2 Interaction)
3 Abrupt decay (3 Interaction)
1 Anguished unmaking (1 Interaction)

3 Pernicious deed (3 Interaction, 3 CA)

4 Green Sun’s Zenith (4 Ramp, 4 CA, 4 Finisher)
4 Cabal therapy (4 Interaction)
1 Thoughtseize (1 Interaction)
1 Vindicate (1 Interaction)
2 Painful Truths (2 CA)

3 Sensei’s Divining Top (3 CA)

Ramp: 12
Interaction: 16.5
Filter/CA: 15
Finisher: 14

SB:
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Krosan Grip
2 Carpet of flowers
2 Tsunami
2 Abeyance


The last card added is Scavenging Ooze, but that is more or less a meta call. If someone is worried about slaughter games on Rhino, you can take one rhino out for Thragtusk/Baneslayer or just use the slot I use For Scooze.
The land distribution is 14G/14B/13W.
The lonely Thoughtseize is in there to push the chance for a discard spell in the opener (+1 draw) to around 50%, up from around 40%. A single Gaddock Teeg was better against Storm, but against other decks he’s often a dead card, at least more often than Thoughtseize. I’m still not satisfied with this, but maybe this version just has to accept the game one concede to combo.dec. (or hit some really lucky therapies)
Tracker is awesome in my opinion. He dies to every removal, yes, but against bolt/punishing fire, you just have to play him a bit like ooze, when you can get value out of him (getting him out of bolt range is quite a mana requirement, and not always necessary. Just play him, then play a fetch. He already leaves two clue tokens in that sequence, even if he gets removed. And just think of the shenanigans with Veteran).
I actually don’t get why people think DLD is a good card against miracles. So he gets swords to plowshared in their turn, so what? They can also terminus in their turn, or just have a karakas out. Given their ability to manipulate their draws, I think DLD is absolutely not viable in that matchup.
We really need something against miracles, but the red splash for slaughtergames just feels weird for me. Maybe I'll test it again after I tested Abeyance for a bit.



Bonus: a list with sfm:

21 Lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept heath
1 marsh flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower (+1Ramp)

3 Veteran Explorer (3 ramp)
3 Deathrite Shaman (3 ramp, 1.5 finisher)
3 Stoneforge Mystic (3 CA, 3 Finisher)
1 Tireless Tracker (1 CA, 1 Finisher)
1 Eternal Witness (1 CA, 0.5 Finisher)
1 Thrun, the last troll (1 Finisher)
2 Siege Rhino (2 Finisher)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons (1 Finisher)

2 Path to exile (2 Interaction)
2 Abrupt decay (2 Interaction)
1 Anguished unmaking (1 Interaction)

3 Pernicious deed (3 Interaction, 3 CA)

4 Green Sun’s Zenith (4 Ramp, 4 CA, 4 Finisher)
4 Cabal therapy (4 Interaction)
1 Thoughtseize (1 Interaction)
2 Painful Truths (2 CA)
1 Vindicate (1 Interaction)

3 Sensei’s Divining Top (3 CA)
1Umezawa’s Jitte (1 Interaction, 1 Finisher)
1Batterskull (1 Finisher)

Ramp: 11
Interaction: 15
Filter/CA: 17
Finisher: 16

The distribution in the categories seems better here. what do you guys think?

[Brael]

The trick is to only search him when you are flooded. You GSZ him followed by a fetchland and wait. Then fetch in response to the opponent's removal. In many situations this is a much better play than a Rhino in grindy matchups when the opponent most likely has removal and neither player is close to dying.

Tracker is by no means a must-play though. He is a solid mid-game option as a 1-off. I think he is much better than Courser in that role.

But when you're flooded, assuming the opponent doesn't have an answer wouldn't you rather just GSZ for Sigarda and end the game?

[Plm]

Note the difference in conversation between the SFM and non SFM builds. The SFM ones are compromising their slot numbers all over the place... less ramp, less removal, less threats, less land in order to accommodate those 7 slots.

The point in playing an SFM build are

- You need less ramp because you are playing a 2 mana 4/4 vigilance lifelink.
- You need less removal because jitte is still an amazing machine gun.
- You play much more threats because once you've played an SFM or an equipment, your fetch becomes 4 turn clock as your explorers do.
- You still play 21 land because seriously Why not?

In my actual build I play 3 SFM jitte batterskull that 5 slots. 2 slots shaved from the ramp section (less probability to draw into ramp late game = constitency ?) 2 slots shaved from the threats section (to play 5 more threats that transform our 4 explorer and our 8 fetch into threats, quite the bargain:smile:) one slots shaved form the removal section (so I can play effectively 4 reusable removal ).

Also note that SFM counts as a tutor/CA.

No I don't think SFM build are compromising their slots(I think the main problem is that we are heretics and might be burned for it , but that's religion for you :tongue:)

[jaruri]

I have a quick rules question about Tireless Tracker.

If we cast GSZ, they let it resolve, and we get Tracker, they can't interact with it before we play a land because we are holding priority and putting a land doesn't use the stack right?

[Echelon]

Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.

I've been thinking about how to solve the 4 Tops problem. I agree that it's dead in multiples, but I also feel we need it to boost consistency. It's one of the reasons why I included 10 fetchlands - they are 1 tool to make it easier to get rid of excess Tops. Now, a couple of pages back someone mentioned KotR. Since I had a slot left in my deck, that might be an ideal fit to solve the Top problem. It's a GSZ'able reusable way to shuffle your deck turn after turn. This'd ensure you see 3 to 6 new cards every single turn. Now combine that with the fact that GSZ turns any green creature into an automatic 5-off and we have something the rest of the format can't do. There is no single deck that and runs 4 Tops and runs 4 GSZ and ramps into enough mana to abuse both! Let alone with such an extreme amount of shuffling effects! We may even have to clear our a Siege Rhino to make room for another KotR.

I might be on to something here. What do you guys think?

Also, thank you all for your lists and giving the breakdown in categories a go. It's interesting to read how others evaluate cards.

[rubblekill]

Damn, this thread moves fast. Anyway...

I don't think Slaughter Games is a bad solution, but it doesn't do anything against Jace on board, and I don't know if I want to bet that I'll draw my 2-of in the board before they draw their 3-4 of and stick one. If we are taking the matchup seriously, SG is clearly a must-have and good tool, but has to come with something to threaten a jace that resolves.

For this reason, I still think Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is the best card to have against Miracles in BGW. It is basically a reverse Bitterblossom that closes fast when you need it (emblem) and threatens whatever they put on the board. My build has two main, just because I'm essentially ceding combo matchups and want to dominate anything fair, including miracles, then just board into what turns out to be a different deck for games 2 & 3 against combo decks. Though I have not tried the Taiga/SG package yet, I think that's my next move because I think it just solves a ton of problems.

Also, I never would've thought Tracker had any chance of making it in Legacy until I saw it in action at the Pro Tour. Card is very good and can run away with the game a la Young Pyromancer. Looking forward to hearing how it works out for Legacy players.

Speaking of cards that take over games, I have been playing a Bant Deathblade deck with a Titania and that thing is a straight up get out of jail free card. I don't know if it's as good when you don't also have Knight and Wasteland but every time I look at my Nic Fit build I want to include the package with Safekeeper (since it also gets me access to Teeg lock vs. Miracles).

Trouble is running into a space issue with Rhinos & Meren & Titania & Sigarda.... and Dragonlord Dromoka, which is also a really good anti-Miracles card.... and Thragtusk. Seems like there might be a difference in philosophy emerging between jamrhinos.dec and a more traditional ramp/zenith deck (that may also just want Pod as an extra GSZ effect for value).

To be fair Dromoka is not that good against miracles..

[helvetios]

The point in playing an SFM build are

- You need less ramp because you are playing a 2 mana 4/4 vigilance lifelink.
- You need less removal because jitte is still an amazing machine gun.
- You play much more threats because once you've played an SFM or an equipment, your fetch becomes 4 turn clock as your explorers do.
- You still play 21 land because seriously Why not?

In my actual build I play 3 SFM jitte batterskull that 5 slots. 2 slots shaved from the ramp section (less probability to draw into ramp late game = constitency ?) 2 slots shaved from the threats section (to play 5 more threats that transform our 4 explorer and our 8 fetch into threats, quite the bargain:smile:) one slots shaved form the removal section (so I can play effectively 4 reusable removal ).

Also note that SFM counts as a tutor/CA.

No I don't think SFM build are compromising their slots(I think the main problem is that we are heretics and might be burned for it , but that's religion for you :tongue:)


Exactly! If you compare the distribution in my two lists above, you'll see that one slot got shaved from ramp, 1.5 from interaction, but CA and Finishers both increased by 2. These numbers don't even consider the possibility of equiping your late-drawn ramp creatures to become threats as well. The only thing I'd like to add in that sfm list is maybe a dryad arbor, for a fetchable equipmentcarrier, and then maybe even a meren. Here are the distributions again:
Rhino list: SFM List:

Ramp: 12 Ramp: 11
Interaction: 16.5 Interaction: 15
Filter/CA: 15 Filter/CA: 17
Finisher: 14 Finisher: 16

[Jain_Mor]

Knight dies to decay and can die to bolt when hated on by a DRS, i.e. You can't cut all of the 4 CMC cards with toughness 4 or more

Whoever was talking about baneslayers, muldrifters and Titans. Siege rhino is in no way a Titan, it is a baneslayers. Courser is not a baneslayer its kind of a nothing really, but that's because I'm not at all sold on the card and have no idea why it keeps coming up in discussion. I was hoping the advent of tireless tracker would put that to rest :P

I'm on holiday at the moment and can't really contribute lengthy debate for the next two weeks unfortunately @Echelon. Though I will say I did interpret Ricardio's post to be quite rude/disappointing. Your response to it was a bit over the top, but was founded.

@Plm, sorry I haven't replied, holiday ^^ you asked me about fetching equipment, I usually fetch SoFaI more than Jitte. It's removal, card advantage, creature pump, protection from balefulstrix and is a much faster clock.

@Brael, I'd counter-argue that a lot of the builds without SFM are often wasting those slots on underpowered cute/situational stuff ;) [EDIT miss-read "non-SFM" for SFM", holiday :) ] and I actively don't care for siege rhino in an SFM build anyway, to me his main bonus is his evasion + life gain, he was much more relevant in the pyromancer/burn/true name nemesis hellscape of when treasure Cruise was legal. Now the metagame has shifted to goyf, angler, smasher, baleful strix and terminus. You don't need him in SFM builds because equipment makes all of your creature threatening, I debate between 0-1 rhinos often, not 3-4 :P

[helvetios]

Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.

I've been thinking about how to solve the 4 Tops problem. I agree that it's dead in multiples, but I also feel we need it to boost consistency. It's one of the reasons why I included 10 fetchlands - they are 1 tool to make it easier to get rid of excess Tops. Now, a couple of pages back someone mentioned KotR. Since I had a slot left in my deck, that might be an ideal fit to solve the Top problem. It's a GSZ'able reusable way to shuffle your deck turn after turn. This'd ensure you see 3 to 6 new cards every single turn. Now combine that with the fact that GSZ turns any green creature into an automatic 5-off and we have something the rest of the format can't do. There is no single deck that and runs 4 Tops and runs 4 GSZ and ramps into enough mana to abuse both! Let alone with such an extreme amount of shuffling effects! We may even have to clear our a Siege Rhino to make room for another KotR.

I might be on to something here. What do you guys think?

Also, thank you all for your lists and giving the breakdown in categories a go. It's interesting to read how others evaluate cards.


I also thought about a KotR package. The question is, do we use him just for the shuffle effect in a Rhino/SFM/PW Build, or do we go all in on him. Here's a list which has some utility lands and other interactions with him:

22 Lands
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Windswept heath
2 Bayou
1 Dark dephts
2 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian tower (0.5 ramp)
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Thespian’s stage
1 Volrath’s stronghold

4 Sensei’s divining top (4 Filter/CA)

1 Deathrite shaman (1 Ramp, 0.5 Finisher)
1 Sylvan safekeeper (1 Interaction?)
4 Veteran Explorer (4 Ramp)
4 Knight oft he reliquary (4 Finisher, 4 Filter/CA)
1 Tireless Tracker (1 Finisher, 1 Filter/CA)
2 Siege Rhino (2 Finisher)
1 Sigarda, Host of herons (1 Finisher)
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth (1 Finisher)

3 Pernicious deed (3 Interaction, 3 CA)

3 Abrupt decay (3 interaction)
2 Path to exile (2 interaction)

4 Green Suns zenith (4 ramp, 4 CA, 4 Finisher)
4 Cabal therapy (4 interaction)
2 Thoughtseizt (2 interaction)
2 Vindicate (2 interaction)


Ramp: 9.5
Interaction: 17
Filter/CA: 16
Finisher: 13.5

One could cut some interaction here (thoughtseize/decay/vindicate) for one or two more finishers. But this list was just a quick throw-together, maybe it would need more lands. The mana-curve seems a bit awkard too.
Curve:
1CMC: 18
2CMC: 3
3CMC: 10
4CMC: 2
5CMC: 2

[Tao]

@SFM builds: In theory they are great, SFM works with Therapy and BS is a Mana Sink. But for me they have not been working out. I can't even say why. That was just my experience.


Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.


That is right. To go more into detail on Fetchland cracking:


- if your opponent is tapped out, you should get as many lands as possible into play right away.
- if your opponent has BG or R or W up and you don't need the Mana right away you should not crack the fetchland because then your opponent can respond to the fetchland trigger with his removal. You can just wait it out. He will be forced to act first because otherwise you will just get your normal land drop next turn. So when he uses his removal you will respond with cracking the Fetchland.
- with Tracker in your deck you should avoid cracking Fetchlands in general until you need the Mana when you are flooded (this is already true for Top, but for Tracker even more so)


But when you're flooded, assuming the opponent doesn't have an answer wouldn't you rather just GSZ for Sigarda and end the game?

I often have situations in which I do not want a beater but more cards or answers. But I dont want to make Tracker sound too insane. He is a solid option and the people in this thread who used or tested him (Arian, me) had good experiences. When you draw him he is a slow cantrip that eats a removal spell imediately, so it is card advantage with a slight Tempo loss, that is okay for three mana. But he has a very high upside, when for some reason he does not die or when you are low on cards and draw GSZ.

[Navsi]

Interestingly if you have a Veteran in play, dropping Tracker followed by a Phyrexian Tower gives you the potential to make 2 clues and 4 mana off the Tower, which means Tracker survives Bolt. Seems like a nice benefit.

[Bobmans]

I also thought about a KotR package. The question is, do we use him just for the shuffle effect in a Rhino/SFM/PW Build, or do we go all in on him.

If you want to go all-in, then check this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=940194&viewfull=1#post940194) out.


Currently this is what the puzzling has brought me:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Choke


The previous list had a huge gap in the 2-3 CMC section. Scooze and E.Witness come back since Scooze is a good help in the combo MU and not half bad against heavy creature decks (Eldrazi and Elves), also Scooze wins the fight vs Deathrite Shaman stand-offs and is solid lifegain when low.
E.Witness has the ability to revive equipment (and the rest).
It seems that there is a debate on Tireless Tracker and everyone seems to like him. Personally i want to put my bet on KotR. I like the idea of a slight land toolbox, to fetch Stronghold or Karakas.
Siege Rhino gets shaved down a bit to straighten out the numbers. The list is now at 60 cards.

Couple things i am still thinking about:
* Should i cut down Veteran Explorer and squeeze in DRS 3/4 so i have a 3/4 split? Because on overall the curve is lower, DRS and SFM help to fight the attrition war. Presenting to much targets for removal works fine. Especially when it means drawing away bolt's from the head or decay away from Jitte.
* Painful Truths, might as well be something else. But i want something library manipulation not being SDT 4. In the past i have tried playing 4 and then they just keep flooding. 3 SDT is perfect.
* Path to Exile is currently playing a more important role then Abrupt Decay, hence the 4/2 split. Having 4 PtE felt incredibly solid.
* No Sorin, i desperately in my board, so that might mean that i will have the 3/4 VetEx/DRS split main.
* Dryad Arbor. Currently my list has the Two Towers and Karakas. Ideally i would like to see Dryad Arbor in there to. But that might also mean Meren of Clan Nel Toth.

[helvetios]

If you want to go all-in, then check this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=940194&viewfull=1#post940194) out.



Couple things i am still thinking about:
* Should i cut down Veteran Explorer and squeeze in DRS 3/4 so i have a 3/4 split? Because on overall the curve is lower, DRS and SFM help to fight the attrition war. Presenting to much targets for removal works fine. Especially when it means drawing away bolt's from the head or decay away from Jitte.
* Painful Truths, might as well be something else. But i want something library manipulation not being SDT 4. In the past i have tried playing 4 and then they just keep flooding. 3 SDT is perfect.
* Path to Exile is currently playing a more important role then Abrupt Decay, hence the 4/2 split. Having 4 PtE felt incredibly solid.
* No Sorin, i desperately in my board, so that might mean that i will have the 3/4 VetEx/DRS split main.
* Dryad Arbor. Currently my list has the Two Towers and Karakas. Ideally i would like to see Dryad Arbor in there to. But that might also mean Meren of Clan Nel Toth.

Thanks for the link!

about the Vet/DRS split: I think in the SFM lists, this is more a preference thing, because both can become beaters with equipment. i personally like the 3/3 split. a fourth Vet may be better if you run a six-drop like sorin.
I also think 3 tops is the perfect number, alongside truths.
about the removal package, more paths felt better yes, but i wouldn't want to go without at least one answer for a jace. so one vindicate is a must in my opinion. The 4-rhino builds could maybe pull of some number of Anguished unmaking?
I'm also struggling to find room for arbor and meren :tongue:

[Jain_Mor]

@Bobman, you can cut the 2nd Rhino for the Meren, that way at Gsun X = 3 & 4 you have the choice of card advantage or beat stick
You have 22 lands, you can cut one for a dryad abor, a utility land (volrath if you add meren?) a forest, plains (worst card in the deck) or make it the 61st card :)

[Warden]

I think the major benefit of SFM is that she turns all of your Mulldrifters into potential Baneslayers as well. Fetching for Arbor and then suiting up the little tree can turn a game around. Any creature can start to be likewise suited up once you have landed the initial SFM. I feel that Tracker operates as a Titan if you are able to play a land or fetch right after playing him. I don't think any opponent can allow him to live for more than a turn or two or else we just gain overwhelming card advantage.

This is the point I'm more or less coming to grips with. She makes your fluff/ramp into threats. A large % of the time, mana is something we have an abundance of.


In the case of Tireless Tracker, it might act like it has an ETB effect when we play it, but that's not as true when we GSZ it. By GSZ'ing it we need to already be at 4 mana, and then we need to have a 5th to play. Not only is that 5th land harder to get down than the 4th, but if you have the 5th in most situations I think you would rather just play it and GSZ Rhino rather than GSZ Tracker and then get some clues (not in every situation of course, but in many I think you would rather have a threat than CA, the exception being if you're low/out of cards and can pop several clues on the next turn)

Edit: SFM basically adds 3 more cards to the deck that potentially give incremental value. I see the power in it, but it does make other cards weaker. You lose 7 potential green slots by doing so. Note the difference in conversation between the SFM and non SFM builds. The SFM ones are compromising their slot numbers all over the place... less ramp, less removal, less threats, less land in order to accommodate those 7 slots. The biggest problem non SFM builds are having is in figuring out if you want 3 or 4 Rhinos.

I don't know if SFM makes stuff weaker. There are definitely pros and cons. It was brought to my attention (via PM) that NicFit's GSZ don't lose value. You're still using GSZ to find stuff. You just have a more streamlined selection.


Bingo. The first chance they get to interact is when the Clue triggers goes on the stack. If you've played a fetchland, you can then crack that fetch and if it does not get Stifled you get a second Clue trigger. Your Tracker might die, but you will end up with 1/2 Clues.

I've been thinking about how to solve the 4 Tops problem. I agree that it's dead in multiples, but I also feel we need it to boost consistency. It's one of the reasons why I included 10 fetchlands - they are 1 tool to make it easier to get rid of excess Tops. Now, a couple of pages back someone mentioned KotR. Since I had a slot left in my deck, that might be an ideal fit to solve the Top problem. It's a GSZ'able reusable way to shuffle your deck turn after turn. This'd ensure you see 3 to 6 new cards every single turn. Now combine that with the fact that GSZ turns any green creature into an automatic 5-off and we have something the rest of the format can't do. There is no single deck that and runs 4 Tops and runs 4 GSZ and ramps into enough mana to abuse both! Let alone with such an extreme amount of shuffling effects! We may even have to clear our a Siege Rhino to make room for another KotR.

I might be on to something here. What do you guys think?

I'm down to run 1-2 in the main at my next event. KotR doesn't consistently become a 12/12 like in Maverick, but even a 5/5 is problematic for most decks right now. Even if you treat her as a crop rotation with legs, that's a hell of a card to include IMO.


To be fair Dromoka is not that good against miracles..

Dromoka is okay against Miracles. Literally shits on everything delver. Is very problematic for fair decks due to her awkward 5/7 flying lifelink.

[Navsi]

I'm currently looking at running this:

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse / Anguished Unmaking
1 Toxic Deluge

1 ???

1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp

---

Cards: 61
Lands: 21
Green: 15
Black: 13
White: 13
Ramp: 10
Interaction: 15
Draw/Filter: 14
Finisher: 15

---

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Gaddock Teeg

I'm not sure what the last maindeck slot should be. It kind of wants to be a draw spell of some form, so I'm leaning towards a Sword of Fire and Ice, but at the same time I'm also very tempted by an Ob Nixilis or Painful Truths. I don't know if the third equipment is worth it when I'm not running Dryad Arbor.

Miracles plan:
- 1 Veteran Explorer
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 STE
- 4 Path to Exile
- 1 Toxic Deluge
- 1 Umezawa's Jitte
+ 2 Carpet of Flowers
+ 3 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
+ 1 Gaddock Teeg

[rubblekill]

I have been running only one DRS for the last 1-2 months and I didn't feel like I lacked more ramp (be aware that I play 4 rhinos and 1 Sigarda, so no more than one single 5 cmc threat and zero 5+ threats).
While killing the explorer(s) with our own deed is a nice splash damage(bonus) from the board wipe, I did find (when I tried each and every configuration of DRS-Vets, including the full 4 DRS build as you can read from my post history) that with more than 1 DRS I was killing him with deed far too much in my opinion. It is card disadvantage after all, with no upsides (unlike Vet).
I say this because I see that you all are playing at least 2 DRS, if not more. We can still manage to tutor for him when we absolutely need him, after all.
And I wouldn't leave home without 4 Veterans, especially if you want to play 2 towers. Even in the mid to late game and even against control decks in G1, explorer is still a crucial shuffle effect to take a look at 3 new cards with top (which is often in play in the mid to late game for those who run 3 copies of it). And against aggro decks he is a 1 mana wall that threatens an aggressive opponent to transition our board state into the late game which means Siege Rhino, which means game; also we are more than happy if the opponent decides to waste a removal spell on him (which you have to be dumb to do it in the first place, but sometimes it happens). Instead DRS can't wall and more often than not dies to every piece of removal imaginable; his death doesn't provide anything apart from sadness.

TL, DR: I have a personal opinion, and that is that a second DRS is not absolutely necessary, at least for those like me that play a low profile creature package (4 rhino 1 sigarda 1 meren).

[Ralf]

TL, DR: I have a personal opinion, and that is that a second DRS is not absolutely necessary, at least for those like me that play a low profile creature package (4 rhino 1 sigarda 1 meren).

You could also try not playing any pernicious deed and the full set of DRS...

:laugh:

[Warden]

This is the drawing board I'm at. I've read over all the more recent comments. I've also revisited some older ideas.
Please do not treat this like the definitive list/setup. It's an amalgamation of everyone's contributions.
====
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
/22 lands (2 utility + 12 mana + 8 fetch)

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Decay
3 Path / Decay / Pulse / Toxic / Vind
/12 interaction

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
/16 core choices

=== If we stop here, we're at a widely agreed-upon list of 50 cards. 20 of these 50 mitigate variance. I'm aiming for coming close to 30/60 "consistency" choices. Below is where we all are meandering.

5-card lands-matter package:
-3 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Primetime
-2 Dark Depths + Thespian Stage

**I'm assuming you'd replace 1 of the above 22 lands with 1 of the DD/Stage combo lands. this brings you up to 23 lands in total. Although 6 cards are listed in the package, it is functionally 5 cards.

5-card SFM package:
-3 SFM
-2 equipment

5-card beatdown package:
-4 ass-kickers (Rhino, Baneslayer, Meren, Thrun)
-1 additional interaction

Misc options
-Poppa Sorin, Liliana of the Veil, Garruk Relentless, Qasali/Rec Sage, additional interaction/removal
-Scooze, Teeg, Sword of X/Y
-Gitrog Monster, Titania, Loam, Crop rotation, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa
-Truths, Tracker, Intent, Sidisi, Witness #2
-Spikes/Thune combo

*These all plug and play into any of the above packages. Some cards compliment packages better than others.

[Ralf]

From a theorical point of view, the higher the mana curve is, the more veteran explorer you want.

For SFM build, I feel that the above should be reversed.
Thus, we should play 4 DRS and 2 veteran.

This leaves the "Pernicious deed" question opened #4DRS.

Right now, I'm not even sure we should play it:
- It's been a while since the last time I make any CA of it (killing more than 2+ permanent)
- It is very slow in some MU.

I trutly think that with more raw cards draw, pernicious is no longer needed and could be transformed into:
- Either spot removal
or Toxic Deluge

To conclude, I would even question/assess P.Deed in the heavy veteran builds.

[sdematt]

From a theorical point of view, the higher the mana curve is, the more veteran explorer you want.

For SFM build, I feel that the above should be reversed.
Thus, we should play 4 DRS and 2 veteran.

This leaves the "Pernicious deed" question opened #4DRS.

Right now, I'm not even sure we should play it:
- It's been a while since the last time I make any CA of it (killing more than 2+ permanent)
- It is very slow in some MU.

I trutly think that with more raw cards draw, pernicious is no longer needed and could be transformed into:
- Either spot removal
or Toxic Deluge

To conclude, I would even question/assess P.Deed in the heavy veteran builds.

Play Veteran anyway, why only play 2? Seems weird.

[Warden]

From a theorical point of view, the higher the mana curve is, the more veteran explorer you want.

For SFM build, I feel that the above should be reversed.
Thus, we should play 4 DRS and 2 veteran.

This leaves the "Pernicious deed" question opened #4DRS.

Right now, I'm not even sure we should play it:
- It's been a while since the last time I make any CA of it (killing more than 2+ permanent)
- It is very slow in some MU.

I trutly think that with more raw cards draw, pernicious is no longer needed and could be transformed into:
- Either spot removal
or Toxic Deluge

To conclude, I would even question/assess P.Deed in the heavy veteran builds.

Play Rhino-Junk instead of Rhino Fit?

[sdematt]

Exactly, Warden :p

[rubblekill]

This is for your gentlemen's pleasure. I'm sure Ricardio would approve.
This is a random match against a miracles deck online, tournament practice room, that of course lasted near one hour.

In G1 I lose to an active JTMS and a couple mistakes I made.

In G2 I draw a certain card that is the 15th in my sb at the moment, because I don't know what else to play and I put it there randomly. That card has won me G2 in 2 turns.

http://i.imgur.com/DrXB0tT.jpg

G3 was the craziest one in my opinion:

http://i.imgur.com/edpj5Zq.jpg --> New Sorin hauling some serious ass on the way to the victory in his first appearance ever, with top he instantly was a fireblast to the face thanks to rhino.

http://i.imgur.com/3QyMSkc.jpg --> Next turn the opponent tries to be fancy flashbacking the council's judgement in the gy. Ralf said nope.

http://i.imgur.com/mZV9uBF.jpg --> The following turn Sorin bolts to the face the opponent, who is hellbent and can't do shit against the god himself. +3 / -3 FTW

G3 has been especially satisfying for 2 reasons: 1) because I drew my newest sideboard choices together and they won me the match; 2) because I, the creature deck player, won against the best anti-creature deck ever made without even using the battlefield. And with f'in MOAT in play. That felt good.

At the end of the day I can say that Sorin is here to stay. Anguished unmaking sniped JTMS like a boss and is gonna replace Pulse or Vindicate. Giant solifuge is the ultimate troll card against cancer.deck.

[Arianrhod]

This is for your gentlemen's pleasure. I'm sure Ricardio would approve.
This is a random match against a miracles deck online, tournament practice room, that of course lasted near one hour.

In G1 I lose to an active JTMS and a couple mistakes I made.

In G2 I draw a certain card that is the 15th in my sb at the moment, because I don't know what else to play and I put it there randomly. That card has won me G2 in 2 turns.

http://i.imgur.com/DrXB0tT.jpg

G3 was the craziest one in my opinion:

http://i.imgur.com/edpj5Zq.jpg --> New Sorin hauling some serious ass on the way to the victory in his first appearance ever, with top he instantly was a fireblast to the face thanks to rhino.

http://i.imgur.com/3QyMSkc.jpg --> Next turn the opponent tries to be fancy flashbacking the council's judgement in the gy. Ralf said nope.

http://i.imgur.com/mZV9uBF.jpg --> The following turn Sorin bolts to the face the opponent, who is hellbent and can't do shit against the god himself. +3 / -3 FTW

G3 has been especially satisfying for 2 reasons: 1) because I drew my newest sideboard choices together and they won me the match; 2) because I, the creature deck player, won against the best anti-creature deck ever made without even using the battlefield. And with f'in MOAT in play. That felt good.

At the end of the day I can say that Sorin is here to stay. Anguished unmaking sniped JTMS like a boss and is gonna replace Pulse or Vindicate. Giant solifuge is the ultimate troll card against cancer.deck.

I'm reminded of the time I watched someone resolve an Ugin against Miracles and proceed to deliver such an epic beatdown that Ricardio would probably still be creaming himself to this day if he'd been there to see it.

I'll begrudgingly grant that Big Sorin might be good vs Miracles. I'm still unhappy about it, but I'll grant it. I really, really don't want that card to be good enough u_u

[rubblekill]

I'm reminded of the time I watched someone resolve an Ugin against Miracles and proceed to deliver such an epic beatdown that Ricardio would probably still be creaming himself to this day if he'd been there to see it.

I'll begrudgingly grant that Big Sorin might be good vs Miracles. I'm still unhappy about it, but I'll grant it. I really, really don't want that card to be good enough u_u

Why? :D If there is a thing I learned from you and the people in this thread is that being open minded is a virtue, no need to "hate" a card without any reason. Heck at first I thought Meren was cute but then I learned my lesson and never played without her.
Sorin is here for miracles and other control decks, and he does his job very well. At 6 mana he works a lot better than Dromoka for example (a card that is often said to be good against blue). I'm still waiting for the game when I kill JTMS with him.

[Tao]

I'll begrudgingly grant that Big Sorin might be good vs Miracles. I'm still unhappy about it, but I'll grant it. I really, really don't want that card to be good enough u_u

"Might be good"? No way. A card that snipes Jace EtB and then draws another card each turn, that dodges Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares and Terminus, why would that card be good against Miracles?

[Brael]

Been thinking more about Jund Fit but without a Punishing Fire engine. Completely untested idea, but Bolt shores up a weakness to planeswalkers, and there's some interesting SB options like having large numbers of Slaughter Games you can cast without much of a cost.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Xenagos, God of Revels

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers 1
1 Domri Rade

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

Spells 15
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Green Sun's Zenith

By the numbers here that's 11 Ramp, 14 Removal, 14 manipulation/CA, 8 finishers (things bigger than 2/1's)

Think it has any shot at being viable?

[sdematt]

Been thinking more about Jund Fit but without a Punishing Fire engine. Completely untested idea, but Bolt shores up a weakness to planeswalkers, and there's some interesting SB options like having large numbers of Slaughter Games you can cast without much of a cost.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Xenagos, God of Revels

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers 1
1 Domri Rade

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

Spells 15
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Green Sun's Zenith

By the numbers here that's 11 Ramp, 14 Removal, 14 manipulation/CA, 8 finishers (things bigger than 2/1's)

Think it has any shot at being viable?

But why? Fires is your best card AGAINST Walkers. In fact, I dont think the red version is bad against Walkers at all.

[Brael]

But why? Fires is your best card AGAINST Walkers. In fact, I dont think the red version is bad against Walkers at all.

More threats. The Fires engine uses a lot of mana, time, and deck space and is pretty slow as a result. Instead here you're much faster with a better board presence. You're also not soft to GY hate.

[Warden]

But why? Fires is your best card AGAINST Walkers. In fact, I dont think the red version is bad against Walkers at all.

Some people don't get it Matt...I'm right there with ya about pfires > walkers.

@Brael: If you REALLY hate pfires (idk why, as it synergizes with all the toys you'd run), play Dreadbore to lock down both creatures and walkers.

[Brael]

Some people don't get it Matt...I'm right there with ya about pfires > walkers.

@Brael: If you REALLY hate pfires (idk why, as it synergizes with all the toys you'd run), play Dreadbore to lock down both creatures and walkers.

I don't hate it at all, I'm just not convinced it's a must run. That said, in thinking about things a bit I'm probably under rating it. It's an easy swap with Bolt, and then it's not costing me any slots really, though the mana would need reworked some.

[AtticusBlaqk]

Hey Guys! New to Nic Fit here.

I don't have a ton of legacy experience and relatively 0 play experience with Nic Fit. I had been playtesting ANT and TES and realized that storm just wasn't the deck for me. Some buddies suggested that I check out Nic Fit and directed me toward the Scapeshift variant. I read up on it a little and proxied an older list.

While the Scapeshift Variant is pretty cool I'm actually more interested in the Pod Variant. I proxied an Abzan list with SFM Batterskull and Jitte. I like that this gives you access to SFM, KotR, Thalia, and other great W pod targets.

However, I have really been on the lookout for a Sultai Pod list. I know that Caleb Durward had a Sultai list up on CFB in late 2014/15 but i have not seen anything recently. Am I in the right place?

Is the Gitrog Monster a considerable 5 drop Pod Target in Nic Fit? If this has been discussed already, can someone direct me to the right page range?

[Arianrhod]

I was very, very quickly inducted into the opinion that Sorin is unplayable, because I played against it like 4 times at the prerelease and then again in standard a couple days later, and the card literally never did a single goddamn thing. People just kept flipping lands and Duresses and shit off of it and I was like, wow, why the hell would you ever pay 6 mana for that.

Admittedly that changes a bit when you have Top, Library, Volraths, etc to help set it up -- but my initial impressions of the card were highly unfavorable.

[Jain_Mor]

I've played two matches against burn since Sorin has been added to my sideboard and he has come down and won me the match two times already :) @Arianrhod, He has wide applications against midrange, control and some aggro. Limited/Standard are creature fests compared to Legacy, probably why he is worse there. I wouldn't run him maindeck though as games tend to go slower post board which is where he shines.

@Navsi, I wouldn't cut Jitte against miracles if you aren't running SoFaI. Having 3 SFM just for a BSK isn't great. Jitte IS still a card that makes your weenies into threats, and it picks off random Snapcasters, Vind Cliques and more importantly Mentors. I don't cut it even when I have SoFaI as well. I wouldn't cut STE against them either... probably cut Vet in its place, you'd rather have the mana then both of you have the mana.

@Navsi/rubblekill, how is the surgical extraction plan working for you against miracles? Do you manage to get the card you want that often? How many do you board in? 3 seems like a hell of a lot...

@rubblekill, why does anguished unmaking get the nod over pulse/vindicate because of JTMS? Is it because you get him before they brainstorm looking for a FoW? It doesn't work with your surgical extraction plan though.. (kill jace, extract him)

@AtticusBlaqk, welcome to the fold! However, I don't think I've seen a sultai podlist in here recently. You are in the right place (because for some reason Nic fit has a thread for all its variants regardless of deck colours..) Gitrog was discussed quite a bit maybe 10+ page ago (just check the dates for spoiler season!) With regards for sultai pod.. Maybe search the thread using the "search thread" function above for "pod" and have a scroll through. I'm sure someone posted something this year haha.

[Luklinda]

SFM, Kotr, Teeg... I must have clicked the maverick thread accidentally....

Seriously tho, a lot of positive work going on here and I'll toss my $0.02 in on a few things.

Mainly the deck fairs well against meta.durdley but has issues with miracles and combo.

KotR, nice, tons of interactions available, but really shines with tech lands like wastelands, karakas, etc. (That we don't want to run with VE). Also, with no evasion I don't think it's worth it as a 4x.

SFM, doesn't help significantly against combo and I think has more drawbacks against miracles than positives. First, he's 2cmc, right in line for counterbalance. Second, equipment is inherinetly conditional. Against a deck loaded with removal, especially instant speed in response to equip attempts, why flood the deck? It helps any threat that sticks be more significant, but how does it help a threat stick? And it adds cards that miracles can ignore to the deck (the actual equipment). They have plenty of anti creature hate. Part of the beauty of NIC fit is that jamming 4+ cmc threats isn't something most legacy decks are designed to cope with. SFM just brings the curve down and starts playing "fair" format creatures. How does any creature with a jitte or on batterskull present more of a problem to miracles than say sigarda, siege rhino, baneslayer, etc. None of the equipment even gets in the air to match entreat or get around a goyf (other decks). I just don't think this is the deck for SFM, there are better things to do.

61 cards is bad, this deck or any other deck.

[uncletiggy]

We are in fact in the middle of an identity crisis nic fit as a whole right now can't decide if its big maverick, tiny turbo eldrazi, super rock, shardlessless shardless, or abzan angel control.... its almost like trying to follow ten recipes to make one soup

Which leads me to my next statement. The exercise in rebuilding from the ground up has shown me one thing very clearly. We started from scratch and ended up in almost exactly the same place. Wardens assement on the core of the deck based on whats been presented mathmatically is essentially where we were before, the only difference is we can see numerically why these cards tested into the slots they have long since been locked into.

Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.

[Echelon]

Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.

Let's make the identity crisis even worse! I like the idea though. Let's do this!

A last thing on KotR (which is now already a couple of pages back, lol) - it never was ment as a replacement of the entire 4 CMC package - it was ment to take up the last free slot that build had (leaving the CMC 4 package intact entirely) and maybe trade in for 1 CMC 4 card. Secondly, running a KotR shouldn't mean we start to tinker with silly lands. The main plan of this deck doesn't need to be diluted. Smashing face with a Goyf-size Knight that also fixes your draws fits the plan, no need to get cute. Trying to also use it for some combo is admitting to The Danger Of Cool Stuff.

You know what, I'm very disappointed in this thread. We come to the conclusion that being more consistent would help the deck quite a great deal, but as soon as we produce a build that is about as consistent as theoretically is possible we start cutting exactly those cards that were added specifically to pad consistency. And the reasoning behind it? "I feel that ...". No testing, no quantification, no particular reasoning, nothing. Just "Meh, less card X is fine".

To take Arianrhod's example concerning Big Sorin: He initially thought "Meh", was willing to try it out and after that concluded that it's a viable option. I would appreciate it if the rest can take the same approach.

@Jain: Thank you for letting me know I wasn't the only one that thought that. Still doesn't justify my response, but that's not the point.

Finishing note on "I don't want to play DRS b/c I tend to blow them up with my own Deeds" and yes, this is directed at you rubble: If you're not willing to blow up your own stuff every now and again, Pernicious Deed is not the card for you. If you find that it "just happens to you" too often, you should really evaluate your playstyle.

[emesyu]

I'd cut myself before I cut Sigarda.


4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
14 threats

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
17 staples/removal

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
6 Filter and Draw

2 Sorin, Grim Vampire-Person
2 Control Walkers

22 Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

61 total. I'd consider cutting a Heath for another Painful Truths, or Vindicate.

Sideboard

3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons or Garruk Relentless (I feel like Sigarda #2, Tao may disagree, but I'd just want to increase my frequency).
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami
1 From the Ashes
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vindicate/Sorin
1 Open (combo hate, likely)

My reasoning is as follows:

Maindeck isn't very different. Whatever. Vindicate could take the place of a Sorin, but whatever works for ya. Safekeeper is something to try to help Rhinos get through the STP.decks. Is it amazing? No, but it is hard to beat. Plus, it games well against Combo with Teeg.

Sideboard is for the following reasons:

Thoughtseize for Combo. Need dat interaction and to give you time. Let's be real - we're slow as fuck.

Teeg for Miracles, Combo, assorted flavours of bullshit. I agree, shutting down GSZ is a pain in the ass, but sometimes, you need him.

Control piece - Sigarda #2 is there for Miracles and the Liliana.deck. She's gameover against all the midrangey bullshit in the format, and does wonders against Miracles. I don't see a second copy as a problem, especially if one gets countered. Could also just be a Relentless, that's for testing to decide. Relentless is far less fragile, but worse against stuff like Jace/Liliana. Sigarda can break you being behind against onboard Jace AND Liliana. Garruk cannot.

Sweep - I foresee a Port reprinting in Eternal Masters, so every person who wanted to get into Legacy might try DnT. Toxic is never bad, and Charm has a little bit more use and a bit faster against, say, Elves. It's two cards to shore up matchups that are probably still favourable, but I'd never want to lose.

Tsunami as the control breaker.

From the Ashes as your trump to Eldrazi. I split this with Tsunami since From the Ashes is only meh against Miracles. Ruination might be better so you have two options, but whatever.

Needles for Jace, Sneak, Grizzle, Batterskull, or whatever. I don't care. Needle good.

Didn't get room for the Vindicate main, so here it is. Could be main instead of a Sorin, we'll see.

Open slot for either combo hate, or a Grip or something.


A little late to seeing this, but could you elaborate on what control walkers you're running/considering?

And also, for the Sigarda slot that you have in your SB, have you thought about running a Titania? Obviously Sigarda is nuts, but in a deck that is running a Sylvan Safekeeper it seems nuts to be able to recur and also protect the 5/3 token generation not to mention that if you have a fetch in hand the turn she comes down she generates 15 power which is certainly something that makes me think of the "going over the top" qualifier being discussed as a goal for the deck.

Thanks for your thoughts! I've been loving this thread

[Echelon]

Unfortunately Titania is a 5 mana card that dies from Lightning Bolt and is bad at blocking. Also doesn't play well with our own Deeds.

[emesyu]

I agree the boltability is a drawback, but I was referring to her being in the SB in Matt's slot for Sigarda #2. Obviously you wouldn't bring Titania in for a MU where you might see bolts, but I think she would also do well against the "midrangey bullshit" Matt mentions and assuming you play her in a fashion like Tracker, you don't play her unless you can get value so at the worst if she does get Swords'd, you still get at least one token that can block a middle sized goyf profitably and at the best, kindof like Tracker, if left unchecked demands an answer pretty quickly. I agree that deed is awkward, but again as with Tracker, ideally you can sequence things so that the nonbo doesn't come up or even if so, that you get some swings in for free as you might cash in some but not all clues. The nice thing with deed on Titania too is that we are highly unlikely to deed for 5+ generally speaking so if she survives even a turn after a board wipe, fetchland topdecks are insane and put the pressure right back on. Lastly, and I know this is a niche case, she has inherent recursion(/ramp technically) if you have 6 lands including a karakas - every turn you can bounce/replay to grab a fetchland (ostensibly in our GY by that stage of the game) and generate a token. You can also bounce her to your hand in response to a Terminus and then if the next turn you brick or don't have other action in hand, you can start playing/bouncing her again. Just a thought - I like Titania but have not played her since I started playing junk nic fit from other variants and have been thinking about trying her out again.

[Tao]

A little late to seeing this, but could you elaborate on what control walkers you're running/considering?


You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.



Is the Gitrog Monster a considerable 5 drop Pod Target in Nic Fit? If this has been discussed already, can someone direct me to the right page range?

I would say no. Pod creatures should have an EtB / LtB effect unless you plan to end your curve at 5. But really with Pod you should go up to 6 to get to a Titan and then a 5-drop like Tusk or Shriekmaw seems better.


I agree the boltability is a drawback, but I was referring to her being in the SB in Matt's slot for Sigarda #2. Obviously you wouldn't bring Titania in for a MU where you might see bolts, but I think she would also do well against the "midrangey bullshit" Matt mentions and assuming you play her in a fashion like Tracker, you don't play her unless you can get value so at the worst if she does get Swords'd, you still get at least one token that can block a middle sized goyf profitably and at the best, kindof like Tracker, if left unchecked demands an answer pretty quickly.

That makes a lot of sense if your version needs another big drop, could be tried. Also in general I need to try this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I dismissed it too quickly.

[Echelon]

Simple - Titania requires shenanigans and more specific circumstances to be really good, Sigarda just says "Turn me sideways 4 times and you're done", no strings attached and has a form of evasion, on top of blanking 90% of all removal known to man.

Opponents also tend to bring in GY hate vs. us, so it isn't necessarily safe to assume we have lands to recur.

[Arianrhod]

We are in fact in the middle of an identity crisis nic fit as a whole right now can't decide if its big maverick, tiny turbo eldrazi, super rock, shardlessless shardless, or abzan angel control.... its almost like trying to follow ten recipes to make one soup

Which leads me to my next statement. The exercise in rebuilding from the ground up has shown me one thing very clearly. We started from scratch and ended up in almost exactly the same place. Wardens assement on the core of the deck based on whats been presented mathmatically is essentially where we were before, the only difference is we can see numerically why these cards tested into the slots they have long since been locked into.

Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.

I think there's a lot of merit to this, though. Yes, we took a bunch of time and effort and didn't really end up very different from where we were (maybe a couple cards at most). But showing that there is validation for where we ended up is important, as is (even more so) now we know the slots to look for as we tune and build new lists. Now we can definitively say, no, we CAN'T cut this 1-of Sylvan Library for another Path to Exile, because then our interaction vs filtration ratios will be off. There is power in that. Sure, we can still have our "identity crisis" as you say -- some people prefer to play the deck one way, some another. But at the end of the day, the bones of each list still boil down into the same primordial soup. As long as we're careful to stick to that core goop, we'll be fine regardless of what pretty dresses we put it in.

As for a haterade approach, I mean, that's certainly something that people can work on. I'd probably recommend starting it with Armageddon -- no tier deck right now likes being geddoned, ESPECIALLY miracles and lands, which are two of the tougher matchups. The trick is that -we- don't like being geddoned very much either, but I'd imagine you could work on that somehow...Crucible of Worlds, Sun Titan, etc.

[sdematt]

You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.



I would say no. Pod creatures should have an EtB / LtB effect unless you plan to end your curve at 5. But really with Pod you should go up to 6 to get to a Titan and then a 5-drop like Tusk or Shriekmaw seems better.



That makes a lot of sense if your version needs another big drop, could be tried. Also in general I need to try this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I dismissed it too quickly.

I'll answer more questions tomorrow, but recall that most of the time when you GSZ for 1 with a duder in play, they just assume you're going for Deathrite. By the time Safekeeper is in play, they're holding their genitalia in their hand as opposed to the STP.

I think Titania could also be fine over Sigarda #2, yes.

[Sergi]

Hi everyone!
Wow! This thread moves really fast.
I'm reading Nic Fit thread almost since the page 200 from the old one.

I totally agree with luklinda.
This is not a deck for creatures with cmc 3 or less, with a few exceptions such as single deathrite, ooze, eternalw,... One of the biggest assets of Nic Fit a part of sinergy between vet+ct is: pernicious deed. I think that removing deed is not the solution.

Our plan is that deed would be on side effect and this is only possible with permanents +3 cmc (in first thread Arianrhood indicated the reasons of not run sylvan library because of this).

All the equipments, deathrites, germ token, clues, sfm, kotr... die to our deed. How you are going to deal with TNN? Blowing your own board?

Some white list only contain 2 path to exile. Well, I thought that the reason of being in white was able to deal with biggest creatures at instant speed (something that is harder to do in red) - looking at you Marit Lage token (or griselbrand, angler) 3 main deck and 1 sb maybe are more correct numbers.

If there are white lists that run taiga for slaughter games in sideboard, why not run a single savannah or plateu in red lists for siege rhino maindeck? Red need to find how to close games faster, unless you go to scapeshift versions.
Sorry for my english, is not my native language.

[emesyu]

You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.




Ah, I see my mistake now. Still, I know there's a lot of hype about the new Sorin but has anyone tried running 1 Sorin GN and 1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad or something like that? Liliana is probably the better pick, but I'm curious about the planeswalker direction and am interested in people's choices/experiences.




Simple - Titania requires shenanigans and more specific circumstances to be really good, Sigarda just says "Turn me sideways 4 times and you're done", no strings attached and has a form of evasion, on top of blanking 90% of all removal known to man.

Opponents also tend to bring in GY hate vs. us, so it isn't necessarily safe to assume we have lands to recur.

I agree Titania is less all-in-one, but I think the way you dismiss Titania is a little blithe. Of course Sigarda is insane, but that's why she's MB and Titania is not. Titania can present a faster clock than Sigarda and has the angle of going wide which could mean being able to leave blocks up and still put on pressure when at low life total or get around something like an Emrakul. I have also been in the situation vs a very aggressive opening from an Eldrazi deck (T1 Eye of Ugin into two Mimics, T2 Ancient Tomb into a TKS, swing for 8, etc) which I was able to stabilize and get a Sigarda in play midgame, but which I had to trade to a Reality Smasher being that I was on 4 and it has haste/trample/is such a beating. I don't remember the game well enough to know if Titania would have been an "out" because it was a pretty nut draw from my opponent, but my point is mostly Devil's Advocating for Titania. Do I think that Sigarda #2 SB is "wrong"? Absolutely not, but do I think that there are (especially more creature heavy) matchups that it might do well in? I definitely have that feeling and was hoping to invite people to weigh in or even test it in the wild. Post board games seem to get grindier too, where an engine type setup like Titania gains cumulative advantage over the course of more turns.

You have a great point about GY hate though, that is certainly a drawback. Perhaps Titania is a better choice in something of a package with a KotR as a small version of what Warden outlined last page, or even requires such a commitment.

[Echelon]

All the equipments, deathrites, germ token, clues, sfm, kotr... die to our deed. How you are going to deal with TNN? Blowing your own board?

Some white list only contain 2 path to exile. Well, I thought that the reason of being in white was able to deal with biggest creatures at instant speed (something that is harder to do in red) - looking at you Marit Lage token (or griselbrand, angler) 3 main deck and 1 sb maybe are more correct numbers.

If the alternative is dying, yes. It's also one of the reasons Golgari Charm is a common SB card.

PtE/AD is a metagame choice. And people tend to cling to AD as a catch-all answer.

Concerning Titania: She lets you run the risk of falling for The Danger Of Cool Things. Can she be beyond awesome? Yes. Can she fall incredibly short? Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, my inner Timmy screams "YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH" whenever I see Titania. It's just that Timmy doesn't live alone anymore.

[Sergi]

If the alternative is dying, yes. It's also one of the reasons Golgari Charm is a common SB card.

PtE/AD is a metagame choice. And people tend to cling to AD as a catch-all answer.

If the opponent is playing TNN you can expect some interaction with your spells, and some of them countered. So relying only in sidebord cards that cannot deal with equipped creatures seems few options. Note that I also run golgari charm sideboard.

Regarding AD, do not have same applications as PtE. Show and tell, grixis, reanimator are tipical decks in my metagme.

[Echelon]

If the opponent is playing TNN you can expect some interaction with your spells, and some of them countered. So relying only in sidebord cards that cannot deal with equipped creatures seems few options. Note that I also run golgari charm sideboard.

Regarding AD, do not have same applications as PtE. Show and tell, grixis, reanimator are tipical decks in my metagme.

You have Cabal Therapy to deal with that or just overload their interaction. Otherwise just drop Siege Rhinos and ignore that bastard. It's what we do.

As far as PtE is concerned you're preaching to the choir, sister.

[helvetios]

This is the drawing board I'm at. I've read over all the more recent comments. I've also revisited some older ideas.
Please do not treat this like the definitive list/setup. It's an amalgamation of everyone's contributions.
====
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
/22 lands (2 utility + 12 mana + 8 fetch)

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Decay
3 Path / Decay / Pulse / Toxic / Vind
/12 interaction

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
/16 core choices

=== If we stop here, we're at a widely agreed-upon list of 50 cards. 20 of these 50 mitigate variance. I'm aiming for coming close to 30/60 "consistency" choices. Below is where we all are meandering.

5-card lands-matter package:
-3 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Primetime
-2 Dark Depths + Thespian Stage

**I'm assuming you'd replace 1 of the above 22 lands with 1 of the DD/Stage combo lands. this brings you up to 23 lands in total. Although 6 cards are listed in the package, it is functionally 5 cards.

5-card SFM package:
-3 SFM
-2 equipment

5-card beatdown package:
-4 ass-kickers (Rhino, Baneslayer, Meren, Thrun)
-1 additional interaction

Misc options
-Poppa Sorin, Liliana of the Veil, Garruk Relentless, Qasali/Rec Sage, additional interaction/removal
-Scooze, Teeg, Sword of X/Y
-Gitrog Monster, Titania, Loam, Crop rotation, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa
-Truths, Tracker, Intent, Sidisi, Witness #2
-Spikes/Thune combo

*These all plug and play into any of the above packages. Some cards compliment packages better than others.

I really like the approach of having these core-cards, and then a few possible ways to change the deck beyond that into some different versions. If we take the three types KotR, Sfm, and Beatdown, how would you guys rate those three in the various matchups? Are there big differences in some of them? (I'm mostly interested in Miracles, Storm, Stoneblade, Jund, Shardless, and Lands. The delver matchups should still be highly favorable in all three types)

[emesyu]

Concerning Titania: She lets you run the risk of falling for The Danger Of Cool Things. Can she be beyond awesome? Yes. Can she fall incredibly short? Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, my inner Timmy screams "YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH" whenever I see Titania. It's just that Timmy doesn't live alone anymore.


Hahahaha now this is something I can relate to - like many, I have certainly been governed by the Rule of Cool before. Thanks for the conversation, though. For now or at least while I'm trying this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I think she will have a slot in my SB and I'll try to let you guys know about any aforementioned shenanigans that may occur

[Echelon]

@helvetios: They all try to win via slow creature packages. Not to be a dick, but how do you expect that to change the outcome of any MU..? And most importantly those we have trouble with?

Consider why we have problems with certain MUs: They are either so fast we're dead before we get to kick them in the nuts and we lack the means to consistently stop them or they can deal with any and all of our threats for a single mana. They're also more consistent than we are so we are less likely to get the cards that do matter in that particular MU than they are. Do those packages improve on any of that? No. Therefor, will they improve the MUs we need to improve? No.

This also applies to lowering the number of Tops we play by the way, since they actually do help us find the cards that do matter more often and it is in our bad MUs that we need them most. Vs. ANT/TES you're normally dead before it matters you drew into a second Top and the Miracles MU usually takes so long you'll get to the point where you easily shuffle away those extra Tops. Or cast them into a Counterbalance to test if there's a 1 on top.

[Navsi]

IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

[Echelon]

IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

Now that's an idea that does improve a bad MU. Walkers not being GSZ'able is another reason to stay @4 Tops, since you do need to find them for them to be of use (Yes, I'm having a field day with this).

[helvetios]

@helvetios: They all try to win via slow creature packages. Not to be a dick, but how do you expect that to change the outcome of any MU..? And most importantly those we have trouble with?

Consider why we have problems with certain MUs: They are either so fast we're dead before we get to kick them in the nuts and we lack the means to consistently stop them or they can deal with any and all of our threats for a single mana. They're also more consistent than we are so we are less likely to get the cards that do matter in that particular MU than they are. Do those packages improve on any of that? No. Therefor, will they improve the MUs we need to improve? No.

This also applies to lowering the number of Tops we play by the way, since they actually do help us find the cards that do matter more often and it is in our bad MUs that we need them most. Vs. ANT/TES you're normally dead before it matters you drew into a second Top and the Miracles MU usually takes so long you'll get to the point where you easily shuffle away those extra Tops. Or cast them into a Counterbalance to test if there's a 1 on top.

I know that there won't be any drastic changes, I was mostly interested if the packages offer some slight differences. I asked mostly because I've read two different opinions in this threat about sfm package against miracles, the first one being, that the equipment makes all your little dudes into beaters, the other is that you give miracles just "some cards to ignore" and play more spells that get hit by counterbalance. Granted, combo won't change at all, but in matchups like jund or shardless there have to be some differences. I'd guess the beatdown package would work best, because you turn off bolt, decay, etc.?

[helvetios]

IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

In such a build, would you consider to run Oath of nissa, as a one-mana spell that searches for the walkers?

[Echelon]

In such a build, would you consider to run Oath of nissa, as a one-mana spell that searches for the walkers?

In a deck where roughly only 25-30% of your cards are creatures/planeswalkers? And instead of what? No. They force you to pass up too much important stuff (GSZ, Top, removal) and do so much less than whatever card they'd replace.

[emesyu]

I really like the approach of having these core-cards, and then a few possible ways to change the deck beyond that into some different versions. If we take the three types KotR, Sfm, and Beatdown, how would you guys rate those three in the various matchups? Are there big differences in some of them? (I'm mostly interested in Miracles, Storm, Stoneblade, Jund, Shardless, and Lands. The delver matchups should still be highly favorable in all three types)


I can't comment to all of the MUs as my meta is pretty slim atm, but to my impression, the beatdown is next to a must-take. What else are we ramping to? The extra interaction slot in Warden's proposed model also makes me feel good because I could see myself giving it to hand disruption which I feel has been first on the chopping block for all of these other directions discussed here and which I miss. Something like a thoughtseize can be really clutch in a combo MU but I also have a soft spot for Hymn and have unabashedly fetched both of my swamps from a vet trigger before in order to cast hymn that turn.

So if beat-down is happening, let's consider SFM vs Lands Matter. I find myself leaning more towards the lands-matter end of things. I like the LM package because it feels like a self contained plan/win con whereas equipment is inherently soft to removal in response to attach, creature sweeps like terminus, etc. Batterskull is obviously a self contained answer to those kinds of things but if you have the mana the be bouncing/recasting BS in any kind of timely manner, you also have the mana to GSZ Primetime and grab stage/depths in one go. Also, the removal that a Marit Lage token is most likely to meet is StP since that seems to be most run in the overall meta. If that's the case, we're up 20 life and probably have a better/grindier long game that can be reached with that much life cushion. The token is, of course, soft to Karakas but not all decks running StP run Karakas and even if so, StP will be a 4x vs a 1x for the legendary land. Terminus is obviously still a drag, but what else is new and I think the Miracles plan was well outlined by Matt a couple pages ago re: diversifying threats. Otherwise, KotR can also be real beats maybe even warranting the whittling down of the beat-down package to something like 3 rhinos and another interaction or walker. Also, per some different conversation parallel to this post, I think Titania is an interesting SB slot that would only benefit from the land shenanigans.
(I'm also interested in the Lands-matter package tangentially because it makes the red splash for SG from the board (or even Kologhan's Command, if we're getting spicy) ever so slightly more synergistic)

The SFM road, while enticing with the idea of a 9/9 Sigarda/Batterskull combo, somehow feels less elegant to me. To be honest, I have not given it much of a shot playtest wise but it seems to be doubling down on creatures which we already do pretty well whereas LM introduces something a little different to the degree that it presents a game plan that is developing the board with creatures and lands at the same time - creatures that can apply real beats and lands which if gone unchecked, can suddenly explode into a very urgent cause for concern.

What I am less sure of is the deed problem. The more <=4 cmc permanents we want to stick around, the more awkward deed board wipes become. Golgari charms become a hilarious blowout to make a deed more 1 sided, but that seems like a dream more than a dependable reality. I don't know what the answer is really. More recursion a la Meren or even Glissa in a SFM world? We are already open to substantial GY hate and the best path is one that pursues more consistency/CA/hand disruption. Happy to hear others weigh in, though.

Edit:


IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

I like the planeswalker direction, but per the above think it is probably incompatible with trying to jam the beat down package and something like the LM package. As Echelon and Navsi note, being non-zenithable makes consistency more of an issue and trying to pull the deck in too many directions at once seems like spreading it too thin.

[Echelon]

The SFM route is a more intricate and therefor more clunky beatdown route. The lands plan is just The Danger Of Cool Things as it still folds to our biggest problems whilst opening ourself up to Wasteland in the process.

I'm a big fan of Keep It Simple, Sirs. Just come up with a simple plan and throw in all the redundancy you can find to push that plan through whatever you may come across. This gives you the highest chance of the deck not shitting on itself.

As for planeswalkers - I have no problem with trading in 1/2 Siege Rhino for 4/5 CMC planeswalkers, provided we keep running 4 Tops to find them. That still leaves us with GSZ -> Siege Rhino/Sigarda and turns some Siege Rhinos into cards that actually are good vs. Miracles.

[emesyu]

The SFM route is a more intricate and therefor more clunky beatdown route. The lands plan is just The Danger Of Cool Things as it still folds to our biggest problems whilst opening ourself up to Wasteland in the process.

I'm a big fan of Keep It Simple, Sirs. Just come up with a simple plan and throw in all the redundancy you can find to push that plan through whatever you may come across. This gives you the highest chance of the deck not shitting on itself.

As for planeswalkers - I have no problem with trading in 1/2 Siege Rhino for 4/5 CMC planeswalkers, provided we keep running 4 Tops to find them. That still leaves us with GSZ -> Siege Rhino/Sigarda and turns some Siege Rhinos into cards that actually are good vs. Miracles.

Uuf, yeah. Wasteland. This is an excellent point. Part of me is still interested in 1 or at most 2 KotR due to synergy with Tracker if you're running that and an increased number of shuffle effects but I don't know if I am sold

Re: the planeswalker plan, are you ruling out new Sorin then? In my mind I am leaning toward a world that has something smaller like Liliana or Garruk R and something bigger like Grim Nemesis. Not going too hard on the PW plan and running two different ones also makes needle worse against us.

[Navsi]

SFM vs Lands Matter. I find myself leaning more towards the lands-matter end of things. I like the LM package because it feels like a self contained plan/win con whereas equipment is inherently soft to removal in response to attach, creature sweeps like terminus, etc. Batterskull is obviously a self contained answer to those kinds of things but if you have the mana the be bouncing/recasting BS in any kind of timely manner, you also have the mana to GSZ Primetime and grab stage/depths in one go. Also, the removal that a Marit Lage token is most likely to meet is StP since that seems to be most run in the overall meta. If that's the case, we're up 20 life and probably have a better/grindier long game that can be reached with that much life cushion. The token is, of course, soft to Karakas but not all decks running StP run Karakas and even if so, StP will be a 4x vs a 1x for the legendary land. Terminus is obviously still a drag, but what else is new and I think the Miracles plan was well outlined by Matt a couple pages ago re: diversifying threats. Otherwise, KotR can also be real beats maybe even warranting the whittling down of the beat-down package to something like 3 rhinos and another interaction or walker. Also, per some different conversation parallel to this post, I think Titania is an interesting SB slot that would only benefit from the land shenanigans.
(I'm also interested in the Lands-matter package tangentially because it makes the red splash for SG from the board (or even Kologhan's Command, if we're getting spicy) ever so slightly more synergistic)

The SFM road, while enticing with the idea of a 9/9 Sigarda/Batterskull combo, somehow feels less elegant to me. To be honest, I have not given it much of a shot playtest wise but it seems to be doubling down on creatures which we already do pretty well whereas LM introduces something a little different to the degree that it presents a game plan that is developing the board with creatures and lands at the same time - creatures that can apply real beats and lands which if gone unchecked, can suddenly explode into a very urgent cause for concern.

What I am less sure of is the deed problem. The more <=4 cmc permanents we want to stick around, the more awkward deed board wipes become. Golgari charms become a hilarious blowout to make a deed more 1 sided, but that seems like a dream more than a dependable reality. I don't know what the answer is really. More recursion a la Meren or even Glissa in a SFM world? We are already open to substantial GY hate and the best path is one that pursues more consistency/CA/hand disruption. Happy to hear others weigh in, though.

I'm leaning the other way with regards to SFM vs. Lands Matter. IMO the Dark Depths package leaves you with a relatively small number of threats compared to SFM because you lose the ability to suit up your Eternal Witness or whatever.
The other issue I have with the Lands package is that it's relying more on expensive creatures, and is significantly more lacking in effects which are resistant to removal or countermagic. The Depths package is a lot less interesting in lists which aren't running some number of Life from the Loam because you're really quite vulnerable to Wasteland, especially if you're playing a list that wants to get to 7 for GSZ->Titan.

Stoneforge also gives you more game against aggro - obviously Nic Fit already does well against Delvers and so on, but the way we lose is to stumble on mana and then get wrecked by Daze, and having access to a 2-mana 'finisher' / way of turning the game around is really useful for any game where you want to stabilise.

IMO the best Lands Matter build goes deeper and plays Loam and/or Crop Rotation.

[emesyu]

I'm leaning the other way with regards to SFM vs. Lands Matter. IMO the Dark Depths package leaves you with a relatively small number of threats compared to SFM because you lose the ability to suit up your Eternal Witness or whatever.
The other issue I have with the Lands package is that it's relying more on expensive creatures, and is significantly more lacking in effects which are resistant to removal or countermagic. The Depths package is a lot less interesting in lists which aren't running some number of Life from the Loam because you're really quite vulnerable to Wasteland, especially if you're playing a list that wants to get to 7 for GSZ->Titan.

Stoneforge also gives you more game against aggro - obviously Nic Fit already does well against Delvers and so on, but the way we lose is to stumble on mana and then get wrecked by Daze, and having access to a 2-mana 'finisher' / way of turning the game around is really useful for any game where you want to stabilise.

IMO the best Lands Matter build goes deeper and plays Loam and/or Crop Rotation.


I like your point re: stabilization but am also receptive to Echelon's message of simplicity/consistency. Perhaps the ideal in that line of thinking is a set up which is consistent enough (on ramp in this case) to not stumble on mana so we would not need to lean on a low mana stabilization plan (which itself will be slow given playing/equipping while low on mana).

I agree more and more with the lands path being a very committed direction and maybe just a different deck that we're trying to play in this shell. I don't lament the energy used to investigate different possibilities, but that is increasingly my feeling as well.

[Echelon]

Uuf, yeah. Wasteland. This is an excellent point. Part of me is still interested in 1 or at most 2 KotR due to synergy with Tracker if you're running that and an increased number of shuffle effects but I don't know if I am sold

Re: the planeswalker plan, are you ruling out new Sorin then? In my mind I am leaning toward a world that has something smaller like Liliana or Garruk R and something bigger like Grim Nemesis. Not going too hard on the PW plan and running two different ones also makes needle worse against us.

KotR's synergy with a card that dies to every removal spell known to man (Tracker) isn't its main selling points. It's its synergy with SDT. Seeing 3/6 new cards every-single-turn is big. Tracker is just frosting on the cake, since it's Magical Christmaslanding if that'd ever stick.

Sorin was in the SE Fit list core, not part of the beatdown package in particular. That guy is beyond awesome.

[Navsi]

I don't necessarily agree with the consistency idea. In the SFM build, you still have GSZ targets which can stabilise you, finish a game, and get you cards. The fact that you can't GSZ for Stoneforge isn't that relevant, since most of the time the slots SFM replaces aren't GSZable creatures anyway - the Zenith toolbox is still pretty much the same size. Playing 2 rather than 3-4 Rhinos doesn't affect your Zenith, just your topdecks 99% of the time.

I've said a couple of times before that I'm not comfortable playing high (>4) numbers of pure ramp creatures because of the consistency hit you take - it means you consistently ramp, but also reduces your odds of topdecking cards which actually have a meaningful effect on the board state which concerns me since nicfit's topdecks are already highly variable (we're a deck that plays both 1/1 do-nothings and Siege Rhino) compared to most of Legacy.

[Echelon]

I've said a couple of times before that I'm not comfortable playing high (>4) numbers of pure ramp creatures because of the consistency hit you take - it means you consistently ramp, but also reduces your odds of topdecking cards which actually have a meaningful effect on the board state which concerns me since nicfit's topdecks are already highly variable (we're a deck that plays both 1/1 do-nothings and Siege Rhino) compared to most of Legacy.

Ramp lowers the number of Tops/GSZ you run..? Cool.

Playing a rather large number of ramp cards just increases the need for those cards whilst giving you the mana to use them effectively.

[emesyu]

KotR's synergy with Tracker isn't its main selling points. It's its synergy with SDT. Seeing 3/6 new cards every-single-turn is big.

Sorin was in the SE Fit list core, not part of the beatdown package in particular. That guy is beyond awesome.


Additional shuffling is what I was using to refer to synergy with SDT. And ah I see, so ~2 walkers in addition to Grim Nemesis? Which, then? I have seen sporadic discussion of planeswalkers but never really a break down/discussion of merits of each.

Liliana is obviously strong and plays multiple roles. Edict removal and at times asymmetrical discard as we are something of a tap out deck looking to deploy threats quickly (if all goes according to plan re: ramping) if she is on the field in the late game, we may already be hellbent.

Garruk R/VC is an interesting card I have not gotten much of a chance to play with. Relentless version he is potentially even removal for monastery mentor and interestingly, another sac outlet for vets although the VC version is more compelling for that as it also turns late game vets or even STE/DRS into tutors for Sigarda. Token generation on either side is also obviously nice but beyond bodies it feeds into the tutor or even extra mana from tower. The deathtouch tokens on the VC side also seem like a big game stall vs creature oriented strategies. The question is, do we need the tutor that badly with 5 effective copies of our beat down win cons and is the set up too elaborate to get Garruk there?

Any Sorin variants beyond Grim Nemesis. Lord of Innistrad is a little interesting to me since worst case scenario if you have him out and you draw into/want to play GN, you can cash him out for an emblem for a nice static benefit before committing to GN.

Nissa, Vastwood Seer: She is technically ramp and not bad CA for her +1... I don't feel very excited about her though. She can be removed pretty easily and the 3cmc slot is a little more clogged already

Am I missing any? These are the ones I have seen in this thread so far to the best of my knowledge/memory

[Echelon]

Nissa isn't ramp. She does progress your mana but doesn't put you ahead of your opponent if you both make a land drop every turn.

I think it's safe to say that any planeswalker we do play needs to be able to close the game in some manner. So that's building tokens or shooting stuff.

[Navsi]

@emesyu - Ob Nixilis and Elspeth (Sun's Champion or Knight-Errant), Ajani Mentor of Heroes. Sun's Champion is probably less relevant now that Sorin can take the '6cmc finisher' slot. Ob Nix is the most obvious choice, alternatively Vraska.


Ramp lowers the number of Tops/GSZ you run..? Cool.

Playing a rather large number of ramp cards just increases the need for those cards whilst giving you the mana to use them effectively.

All the builds run the same number of GSZ and similar Tops. That's not my point. I'm saying that adding more Veterans / STEs increases your odds of getting a second or third ramp card when you wanted a threat or other useful card. Obviously this varies with the build, since an SFM build needs the fifth/sixth land a lot less than a deck running Sorin.

[emesyu]

Nissa isn't ramp.

I think it's safe to say that any planeswalker we do play needs to be able to close the game in some manner. So that's building tokens or shooting stuff.

Fair, not ramp - at best thinning the deck slightly, but not ramp.

Per this definition though, you would not take Liliana? For her low cost, I feel like she falls in the interaction camp more than the ending the game camp. Do you find you have enough interaction without her?


Ramp lowers the number of Tops/GSZ you run..? Cool.

Playing a rather large number of ramp cards just increases the need for those cards whilst giving you the mana to use them effectively.

I read this as "playing a lot of vet/STE/etc means you will want to draw those cards while also having the mana to cast vet/STE/etc" but I think that that is wrong andddd could you clarify


Also, I know we've gone over this in pages past as a thread but I feel there is no need to disparage others as they are explaining their perspective. As someone who has cited that it is difficult to decipher intention over the internet, you are playing a bit fast and loose with the wording you direct at others. You have cool insights about mtg so I am relatively confident you are also capable of explaining why you think a different way is better in a constructive way. I was excited about this deck before I came here, but the atmosphere here has just been icing on the cake and I would love to see that fostered.

[Echelon]

I'd like to have that 5th/6th land if I plan on casting and bouncing my Batterskull after my SFM bites the dust... Good luck casting it without the 5th land or getting it through Daze without the 6th. The sooner you can start pressuring your opponent with Batterskull, the better.

@emesyu: Yes, that'd mean I'd skip over LotV. I think we have enough removal to get by. And yes, sometimes I am a dick and at times I do play fast and loose. Please do note that I tend to attack the argument, not the person (with some exceptions every now and again). There's a (rather crucial) difference.

[emesyu]

@emesyu - Ob Nixilis and Elspeth (Sun's Champion or Knight-Errant), Ajani Mentor of Heroes. Sun's Champion is probably less relevant now that Sorin can take the '6cmc finisher' slot. Ob Nix is the most obvious choice, alternatively Vraska.


Ah, I spaced on those, thanks for pointing them out. With Elspeth, I agree that Sun's Champion is probably hedged out by Grim Nemesis, but Knight Errant evasion/pump +1 seems pretty real and is another variant of converting otherwise innocuous 1/1s into fast clocks. Still, the WW in the cost seems like a significant barrier.

Ajani MoH's second ability seems neat with the added benefit given we'd theoretically be running more planeswalkers although the synergy with seeing more with top seems perhaps even more compelling. At 5cmc though, I think the cost/benefit is not there, at least for me


Vraska could be pretty reliable removal for CB/top or pesky creatures/effects and technically gets Emrakul. She also protects herself well from creatures. She seems like an overall subpar choice, especially at the 5 cmc level to me somehow though.

With Ob Nix, which? Black Oath spits out an immediate 5/5 which is no joke if you're allowed to alternate a couple turns draining/making 5/5s but I feel like Reignited is the more likely choice, and is like a slightly less versatile but more CA-y Vraska


Again, please do weigh in, thread. This is meant more to establish parameters/begin a discussion and consists mostly of my immediate impressions pre testing/late at night >>

Also, this is not reflective at all of ultimates as I think it's safe to assume if you would be ulting, your opponent is probably moving to the scoop phase already

[Navsi]

I'm not saying SFM doesn't want a sixth land. I'm saying that they want a sixth land less than a deck playing more high-mana spells like most other Nic Fit variants, and as such can afford to drop a ramp card or two.

I was referring to Ob Nixilis Reignited. Black Oath probably isn't worth it, his + is pretty irrelevant so he probably just makes a Demon or two. We already do 5/5 flyers much better in other places, and if we want a planeswalker that kills quickly we have Sorin. I'd look into Gideon Jura before running Black Oath (although double W is a pain, we do play Sigarda).

[Echelon]

SFM preferably gets you a 5 CMC card and probably gets killed before you can use SFM to drop it. If there ever is a build that does want (and need) that extra land, it's the SFM build. You don't want it stuck in your hand, you don't want it to get Dazed, you want mana to be able to return it to your hand and you want to keep casting other cards while you keep that mana open. That's about as mana hungry as you can get. And you want to start doing that as quickly as you can.

The SFM package's hunger for mana is another con for the package. It invites durdling where you could otherwise just go for the throat while not improving any MUs, let alone the important ones.

[emesyu]

@Navsi I think you are correct with Ob Nix. That's true on the WW in Sigarda's cost, but the number of times I've hard cast her very much pale in comparison to her fetched appearances, which brings us back to the issue of things being zenithable. Sigarda's WW is not the same as the WW in Elspeth/Gideon's costs. About Gideon specifically, I feel sketched out due to his being susceptible in the 6/6 mode to something as simple as a go for the throat as it's just damage prevented.

Right now I feel like the planeswalker tech I'm most interested in running is Grim Nemesis and Garruk R. I'm not sure I want to cut another thing, although maybe I would run GR in the SB and potentially even have another planeswalker in the SB to bring in like Vraska or Ob Nix. That is probably going to hard though, 2 PW seems like a pretty good number at least going into it. Lately I've been trying to maintain MB space for at least 1 more hand disruption and a chant or Abeyance or two. I know abeyance hits miracles harder but it feels pretty good to pseudo time walk an eldrazi player with the kicker on chant, turns out. Fortunately storm is blown out either way

[Echelon]

I kinda like Elspeth Tirel. Yes her + sucks, but the turn after you cast her she wipes away any and all opposing permanents. Vs. Miracles that means no more Jace AND no more CounterTop for a turn. She can also produce 3 tokens every other turn to keep pressuring Terminus and fuck with StP. It may not be the best finisher, but she is a finisher that reduces anything your opponent drops on the field to probably not even a speedbump if she manages to stick around for a while.

I would want to run Garruk, Primal Hunter. +1 to make a 3/3 is nuts. Maybe the massive amount of ramp'd allow us to pay for the GGG reliably..?

I don't like Gideon as he can be answered easily like any other creature.

[cherson]

I kinda like Elspeth Tirel. Yes her + sucks, but the turn after you cast her she wipes away any and all opposing permanents. Vs. Miracles that means no more Jace AND no more CounterTop for a turn. She can also produce 3 tokens every other turn to keep pressuring Terminus and fuck with StP. It may not be the best finisher, but she is a finisher that reduces anything your opponent drops on the field to probably not even a speedbump if she manages to stick around for a while.

I would want to run Garruk, Primal Hunter. +1 to make a 3/3 is nuts. Maybe the massive amount of ramp'd allow us to pay for the GGG reliably..?

I don't like Gideon as he can be answered easily like any other creature.

hopefully it is not mentor miracles because all their tokens will be alive as well.
I considered primal hunter as well and I think GGG is possible. we are running at least 3 green standard, plus 2 bayou and 1 or two savannah which means we have access to 6-7 green sources.
the +1 is insane in grindy matchups and a 3/3 token is a also a quick clock. but do we want to run 3 PW in our sideboard? sorin, g relentless and g p hunter ?
I would like to play 20 cards already :rolleyes:

[Echelon]

hopefully it is not mentor miracles because all their tokens will be alive as well.

On the other hand, clearing away CounterTop for the turn so you can resolve a Deed is also a thing.

Also, who's talking about SB?

[Tao]

- Sorin Lord of Innistrad sucks. The +1 has too little impact, the -2 doesnt fit our game plan and the ultimate is unrealistic.

- Elspeth Tirel sucks, too. The +1 does nothing, the -2 doesnt fit our game plan. The ultimate is unrealistic. Why would she live if you just spent 5 Mana doing absolutely nothing? Even against Miracles mediocre at best, against everything else almost dead.

- Garruk PH is solid. The mana cost is acceptable, 2GGG is not too hard, only bad if you have Plains plus Swamp plus Tower. About half the time he should be castable with 5 lands, the other half with 6 lands. His +1 is very good and the -3 has great synergy with Sigarda. But on the other hand he has no way to defend himself and the initial loyalty is low.

- Ob Nixilis is also solid. High initial loyalty good +1 and solid -3. His big problem is that he gets awkward when you are low on life.

- Sorin Grim Nemesis is simply perfect. High initial loyalty, helps you stabilize against beatdown with removal+life gain, helps you win grindy matchups with the +1. Trumps Gurmag Angler and very importantly Reality Smasher. Icing on the cake is the EtB destroy Jace TMS.

- I like Garruk Apex Predator (or Karn Liberated) a lot, as a 1-off. Sure, the mana cost is extreme, but the effect is insane. For 2 Mana more compared to Primal Hunter you get a) deathtouch on your Beasts, b) an immediate lifegain+removal option, c) a destroy Planeswalker option and d) 2 extra loyalty.

[Echelon]

- Elspeth Tirel sucks, too. The +1 does nothing, the -2 doesnt fit our game plan. The ultimate is unrealistic. Why would she live if you just spent 5 Mana doing absolutely nothing? Even against Miracles mediocre at best, against everything else almost dead.

...

- I like Garruk Apex Predator (or Karn Liberated) a lot, as a 1-off. Sure, the mana cost is extreme, but the effect is insane. For 2 Mana more compared to Primal Hunter you get a) deathtouch on your Beasts, b) an immediate lifegain+removal option, c) a destroy Planeswalker option and d) 2 extra loyalty.

She comes down the turn after Siege Rhino/assorted other blockers so she can quite likely tick up safely once. How is the ultimate unrealistic, especially since the deck you'd actively look for her doesn't present a clock in the first 10 or so turns? It's +2, by the way. So after the first -5 she sticks around.

For just 1 mana extra you get Ugin. Where do we draw the line? 7 is too much. We're not maindecking Elesh Norn either.

[Tao]

She comes down the turn after Siege Rhino/assorted other blockers so she can quite likely tick up safely once. How is the ultimate unrealistic, especially since the deck you'd actively look for her doesn't present a clock in the first 10 or so turns? It's +2, by the way. So after the first -5 she sticks around.

For just 1 mana extra you get Ugin. Where do we draw the line? 7 is too much. We're not maindecking Elesh Norn either.

- Elspeth, two cases:
a) You have board control, you have a Rhino, you +1 her, she lives. Then why would you want to blow up the board?
b) Yon don't have board control, you +1 her, she dies.
Either way, the ultimate is not a realistic option.

- Garruk Apex is at least as good as Ugin. Why would you pay extra Mana for a similar effect? We are not playing Elesh because Jace, Liliana, Swords and Terminus laugh at it.
The line is somewhere at 6 or 7 Mana I think. It really depends on the card strength. Garruk is certainly on the edge of that but I do think he is a realistic option due to how insanely good he is.

[Echelon]

Resolving it is sweet, but that CMC is just too high to reliably do so. It's a risk I'm personally not willing to take.

[sdematt]

- Sorin Lord of Innistrad sucks. The +1 has too little impact, the -2 doesnt fit our game plan and the ultimate is unrealistic.

- Elspeth Tirel sucks, too. The +1 does nothing, the -2 doesnt fit our game plan. The ultimate is unrealistic. Why would she live if you just spent 5 Mana doing absolutely nothing? Even against Miracles mediocre at best, against everything else almost dead.

- Garruk PH is solid. The mana cost is acceptable, 2GGG is not too hard, only bad if you have Plains plus Swamp plus Tower. About half the time he should be castable with 5 lands, the other half with 6 lands. His +1 is very good and the -3 has great synergy with Sigarda. But on the other hand he has no way to defend himself and the initial loyalty is low.

- Ob Nixilis is also solid. High initial loyalty good +1 and solid -3. His big problem is that he gets awkward when you are low on life.

- Sorin Grim Nemesis is simply perfect. High initial loyalty, helps you stabilize against beatdown with removal+life gain, helps you win grindy matchups with the +1. Trumps Gurmag Angler and very importantly Reality Smasher. Icing on the cake is the EtB destroy Jace TMS.

- I like Garruk Apex Predator (or Karn Liberated) a lot, as a 1-off. Sure, the mana cost is extreme, but the effect is insane. For 2 Mana more compared to Primal Hunter you get a) deathtouch on your Beasts, b) an immediate lifegain+removal option, c) a destroy Planeswalker option and d) 2 extra loyalty.

Apex Predator should have been 5 or 6 mana to push him into usability.

Elspeth KE is also an excellent combat Walker. The ultimate doesn't win the game, but making things fly and pump is decent. Sorin just does so much more, especially for this deck. I think at 5 mana he would have been REALLY, really good and playable in other decks that aren't ramp, in my opinion.

[cherson]

On the other hand, clearing away CounterTop for the turn so you can resolve a Deed is also a thing.

Also, who's talking about SB?

sorry, I was not referring to the PW MD idea because all of them are too expensive.
personally I will add two to the SB. sorin and one relentless or ph. I only need them in the grindy match up's for all the others I will fight with my big friends.
as mentioned earlier I didn't test the PW too much because I didn't have too many miracles mu's recently.
I swing back and forth if I want to try sorin over baneslayer angel..

[Brael]

Hey Guys! New to Nic Fit here.

I don't have a ton of legacy experience and relatively 0 play experience with Nic Fit. I had been playtesting ANT and TES and realized that storm just wasn't the deck for me. Some buddies suggested that I check out Nic Fit and directed me toward the Scapeshift variant. I read up on it a little and proxied an older list.

While the Scapeshift Variant is pretty cool I'm actually more interested in the Pod Variant. I proxied an Abzan list with SFM Batterskull and Jitte. I like that this gives you access to SFM, KotR, Thalia, and other great W pod targets.

However, I have really been on the lookout for a Sultai Pod list. I know that Caleb Durward had a Sultai list up on CFB in late 2014/15 but i have not seen anything recently. Am I in the right place?

Is the Gitrog Monster a considerable 5 drop Pod Target in Nic Fit? If this has been discussed already, can someone direct me to the right page range?

I played Pod Fit for a about 1.5 years and eventually gave up on it in favor of Rhinos. My big problem with the BUG Pod lists was that the deck slots are just too tight. You need a minimum number of targets for GSZ, but you also need a minimum number of cards at each CMC for Pod chains, and then you need a higher number of creatures to make Pod work. You can search my previous posts, there's not all that many of them. At some point I was coming up with a deck skeleton in Pod and found you needed about 22 creatures in the list at minimum, and that your best Pod slot is 3 to 4, but your best GSZ is 4 or 5 and the best Pod cards aren't Green. This creates a huge conflict. These days I see another issue that Top is so good but Pod runs fewer Tops and tries to supplement it with Trinket Mage.

Gitrog probably isn't a good enough 5.

[Koby]

A few notes from my 4 rounds with Rhino Time:

1. Rhino Time is such a sick burn.
2. More sacrifice outlets for V.Ex seems useful. I ran 4 Therapies, 1 Phyrexian Tower. Several games I had V.Ex without a way to trigger him.
3. Removal for large creatures is needed. I ran 0 copies of PtE (I have a Miracles / Combo meta, then faced Sneak Show). In this meta it feels like Lilliana is better.
4. I ran too many cards that cost >3 mana. This is a inefficiency, even for Legacy and this deck.
5. Against decks with RIP, et al. subbing Veteran Explorer for DRS in SB games is not going to help accelerate. This seems like a design misstep.

[TTX]

'Punishing Scape Fit' took down Ovino! Congrats to Nicola Guidi if you read this.

http://www.ovinotournament.com/legacy-main-event-ovinospring/

After seeing this list, and how I've not been happy with the strictly beatdown plan on Junk Fit, I have been exploring Scapefit, and I like it
quite a bit, as having a better game against Miracles through the inevitability of huge damage from Valakut.
I changed the deck slightly to incorporate Tireless Tracker, as it has insane synergy with the deck. I am wondering what you guys think of
Courser in Scapefit. I've never seen it in this deck, and while I know it's debatable in Junk lists, the smoothing of top decks in this deck
is really important.

Deck (61)

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging ooze
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle

Sideboard (15)
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Damnation
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction

[Warden]

A few notes from my 4 rounds with Rhino Time:

1. Rhino Time is such a sick burn.
2. More sacrifice outlets for V.Ex seems useful. I ran 4 Therapies, 1 Phyrexian Tower. Several games I had V.Ex without a way to trigger him.
3. Removal for large creatures is needed. I ran 0 copies of PtE (I have a Miracles / Combo meta, then faced Sneak Show). In this meta it feels like Lilliana is better.
4. I ran too many cards that cost >3 mana. This is a inefficiency, even for Legacy and this deck.
5. Against decks with RIP, et al. subbing Veteran Explorer for DRS in SB games is not going to help accelerate. This seems like a design misstep.

I've been there with Veteran, so I know what you speak of. Sometimes I've found myself contemplating using spot removal on my own vet but that's such a shitty circumstance. Could Intent or Sidisi alleviate the issue?

As for Liliana of the Veil, I REALLY like her in certain metas. If we're all discussing planeswalkers, she's my #1. The only downside to her is BB not being a priority for my list (and I fully acknowledge that's easy to fix).

Against RIP, you could use Carpet of Flowers (assuming UWx is nuking the grave) or Sakura (regardless of the opposition). Sakura is the shit. He also alleviates your concern within #4.

[emesyu]

A few notes from my 4 rounds with Rhino Time:

1. Rhino Time is such a sick burn.
2. More sacrifice outlets for V.Ex seems useful. I ran 4 Therapies, 1 Phyrexian Tower. Several games I had V.Ex without a way to trigger him.
3. Removal for large creatures is needed. I ran 0 copies of PtE (I have a Miracles / Combo meta, then faced Sneak Show). In this meta it feels like Lilliana is better.
4. I ran too many cards that cost >3 mana. This is a inefficiency, even for Legacy and this deck.
5. Against decks with RIP, et al. subbing Veteran Explorer for DRS in SB games is not going to help accelerate. This seems like a design misstep.

I hear you on V Explorer. I've been running an extra tower and amongst this conversation about planeswalkers have been interested in those that interact well/provide another sac outlet like Garruk VC. I'm not sold on
on intent or Sidisi especially and am unsure of other productive ways to bring in more sac outlets. Perhaps we should slam natural order+worldspine wurm /s

[Koby]

I've been there with Veteran, so I know what you speak of. Sometimes I've found myself contemplating using spot removal on my own vet but that's such a shitty circumstance. Could Intent or Sidisi alleviate the issue?

As for Liliana of the Veil, I REALLY like her in certain metas. If we're all discussing planeswalkers, she's my #1. The only downside to her is BB not being a priority for my list (and I fully acknowledge that's easy to fix).

Against RIP, you could use Carpet of Flowers (assuming UWx is nuking the grave) or Sakura (regardless of the opposition). Sakura is the shit. He also alleviates your concern within #4.

Intent could work, but high variance still. Sidisi is >3 mana, so beyond the limiting factor. Would rather just cast Rhino at that mana point.
Lilliana is nice in being both 3 mana, and flexible enough to ramp excess V.Explorers. Also provides a safety net against Show & Tell style monsters.
Finally, Carpet is fine vs Blue (which we already invest heavily with bombs) but does nothing against Death & Taxes, which was my case on Tuesday. Rock < me < hard place.

[rubblekill]

I will be testing safekeeper, but isn't he better as a sideboard card? I find it useful only against stp decks (miracles pretty much) and combo (but in G2-3, not 1).
Against bolt/pfire decks, except maybe burn, we should value our land drops more right? Because of mana denial.
Even in a meta like the online one where miracles is like 18.5 of the entire metagame, I think safekeeper is a risky choice for the main deck. Thoughts?

E: ok, it seems ridiculous to say the he is not good against bolt, but I meant that bolt usually means wasteland thus I don't necessarily want to blow my lands up.

[sdematt]

I will be testing safekeeper, but isn't he better as a sideboard card? I find it useful only against stp decks (miracles pretty much) and combo (but in G2-3, not 1).
Against bolt/pfire decks, except maybe burn, we should value our land drops more right? Because of mana denial.
Even in a meta like the online one where miracles is like 18.5 of the entire metagame, I think safekeeper is a risky choice for the main deck. Thoughts?

I don't think he's a risky choice, so to speak. He also dodges Jace bouncing (Jace is in decks like Shardless and Control BUG, which are doing well) and other stuff. I don't think the downside is that bad.

The card I miss most is Intent, since it's SOO good when it's good, but it's also dirt when it gets countered. Oh well.

[rubblekill]

I don't think he's a risky choice, so to speak. He also dodges Jace bouncing (Jace is in decks like Shardless and Control BUG, which are doing well) and other stuff. I don't think the downside is that bad.

The card I miss most is Intent, since it's SOO good when it's good, but it's also dirt when it gets countered. Oh well.

Yea..maybe it can be good against shardless for that reason..I'll try it

[sdematt]

I try to jam him in every deck with GSZ. In Maverick, he's insane and no one plays him. Sigh.

[Tao]

If we are talking about underrated low drops / Sideboard material, I want to mention Spirit of the Labyrinth. He stops the entire Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe engine and puts a nice clock on Combo decks. Also, he is amazing against Ancestral Vision. And if he lives, he stops Jace TMS. Downside is of course he dies to removal, especially Terminus.

[Ricardio]

I am back. Felt like i needed a break since i started a tiff but we all good now. i love this thread, this deck and all yous guys/gals.

FRIENDLY REMINDER OF THIS DECK: 1-0 IN A LEAGUE

http://i.imgur.com/QuhVyLV.png

will post decklist http://i.imgur.com/c3LBu2L.png

[Echelon]

I am back. Felt like i needed a break since i started a tiff but we all good now. i love this thread, this deck and all yous guys/gals.

FRIENDLY REMINDER OF THIS DECK: 1-0 IN A LEAGUE

http://i.imgur.com/QuhVyLV.png

will post decklist http://i.imgur.com/c3LBu2L.png

I love you too buddy. Keep up the good work! @others: Yes, Ricardio and I are Rhino Buddies again. We talked it out like the couple of real adults we pretend to be and it's all rainbows and Rhinos again. All I missed was a beer or two, but that part of the internet still has to be invented.

@Koby: What list did you run? It might give us some more insight on your experiences. On sac outlets - Phyrexian Tower no. 2 is the easiest (and cheapest) one to add, if your manabase can handle it. Otherwise I'm also quick to resort to Diabolic Intent. I'm known to run 2.

[rubblekill]

I am back. Felt like i needed a break since i started a tiff but we all good now. i love this thread, this deck and all yous guys/gals.

FRIENDLY REMINDER OF THIS DECK: 1-0 IN A LEAGUE

http://i.imgur.com/QuhVyLV.png

will post decklist http://i.imgur.com/c3LBu2L.png

Interesting..why dp you think STE is necessary?

And the deck seems pretty f'in hateful if you know what I mean; I imagine the standard Ricardio though process: "People be arguing that SG or abeyance is better than the other and vice verse? I'm going to play both lol".

Very interesting ill try both myself. I have never liked spirit of the l tho, I will replace them with grips to be more hateful and because i hate when the one that gets to durdle with top is the opponent.

E: if you want to have a laugh go read one of my last posts in this thread [emoji4]

[Echelon]

E: if you want to have a laugh go read one of my last posts in this thread [emoji4]

On that it's fine for a 5-drop to be answered by a 1 CMC card, ignoring that the smart man plays said 1 CMC card when the 5-drops' ETB trigger is on the stack? Yeah, that is pretty funny. No 5/3 tokens for you, mister. Enjoy your 5 mana fetchland.

The alternative is that that 5 mana'd been spent on a Sigarda and the smart man'd be a sad man with a Bolt in his hand. That's the slot it's occupying, so that is what it'd be had you chosen to run the other card.

[emesyu]

On that it's fine for a 5-drop to be answered by a 1 CMC card, ignoring that the smart man plays said 1 CMC card when the 5-drops' ETB trigger is on the stack? Yeah, that is pretty funny. No 5/3 tokens for you, mister. Enjoy your 5 mana fetchland.

The alternative is that that 5 mana'd been spent on a Sigarda and the smart man'd be a sad man with a Bolt in his hand. That's the slot it's occupying, so that is what it'd be had you chosen to run the other card.

Hahahaha still the shade on Titania? I thought we had adequately hashed out that it's a SB card that would be pulled out in creature intensive MUs lacking bolts/StP like Eldrazi and which is probably a meta call anyway. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Echelon]

Hahahaha still the shade on Titania? I thought we had adequately hashed out that it's a SB card that would be pulled out in creature intensive MUs lacking bolts/StP like Eldrazi and which is probably a meta call anyway. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hey, rubble said he had something laughable for me to look at. It's not my fault it turned out to be that. Seemed like a cry for attention to me, so I indulged.

[rubblekill]

On that it's fine for a 5-drop to be answered by a 1 CMC card, ignoring that the smart man plays said 1 CMC card when the 5-drops' ETB trigger is on the stack? Yeah, that is pretty funny. No 5/3 tokens for you, mister. Enjoy your 5 mana fetchland.

The alternative is that that 5 mana'd been spent on a Sigarda and the smart man'd be a sad man with a Bolt in his hand. That's the slot it's occupying, so that is what it'd be had you chosen to run the other card.

Wait, what? Did I ever talk about Titania? My edit was written for Ricardio, and I was referring to the pictures I posted the other day..sometimes I don't even understand if you are baiting drama or something [emoji26]

[Echelon]

Wait, what? Did I ever talk about Titania? My edit was written for Ricardio, and I was referring to the pictures I posted the other day..sometimes I don't even understand if you are baiting drama or something [emoji26]

Lol then just point directly towards the pictures man (and direct your post @a specific person instead of starting with E:. Or just type out Edit:, lol).

@Bobmans: I did some rework on your datasheet. I've included a 6 CMC and ramp bracket and got the calculation sheet to work with weighted bools (i.e. cards that we like to count as 0.5 for a certain slot). I also added in a sheet with some hypergeometric distribution for easy reference. It scales with the total number of cards in the deck and runs from 6 to 27 land (or whatever category). This means we're able to quickly determine what happens if we move from say 8 library manipulation slots to 7 etc. I built in a compare function, where you can submit what number you are on currently and what number you want to go to, after which it shows you the difference between the two (i.e. now I run 21 lands but I'm thinking of going up to 22 or the other way around). I also added in some evaluation logic for the manabase. As long as you have >= 14 initial manasources for a given colour, that slot colours green. 12 or 13 colours it orange, anything below 12 turns it red. It also tells you if your current manabase is stable or not. All green and 21+ lands = stable, any red or total land count under 21 = unstable, everything in between is risky. Oh, and I added in a graph to visualize the manacurve.

I also have a random hand generator I built a couple of years ago I can throw in there, if anyone'd want it.

[rubblekill]

Lol then just point directly towards the pictures man (and direct your post @a specific person instead of starting with E:. Or just type out Edit:, lol).

@Bobmans: I did some rework on your datasheet. I've included a 6 CMC and ramp bracket and got the calculation sheet to work with weighted bools (i.e. cards that we like to count as 0.5 for a certain slot).

I was talking to him after all. And what was that comment about Titania? Am I missing a joke or what?
Being on mobile aggravates my laziness and thus my reluctance to write anything more than what is strictly necessary.

[Echelon]

I was talking to him after all. And what was that comment about Titania? Am I missing a joke or what?
Being on mobile aggravates my laziness and thus my reluctance to write anything more than what is strictly necessary.

Ignore the Titania bit, it has been discussed enough and is probably the product of another mobile mishap. Let's just move on.

[Bobmans]

Lol then just point directly towards the pictures man (and direct your post @a specific person instead of starting with E:. Or just type out Edit:, lol).

@Bobmans: I did some rework on your datasheet. I've included a 6 CMC and ramp bracket and got the calculation sheet to work with weighted bools (i.e. cards that we like to count as 0.5 for a certain slot). I also added in a sheet with some hypergeometric distribution for easy reference. It scales with the total number of cards in the deck and runs from 6 to 27 land (or whatever category). This means we're able to quickly determine what happens if we move from say 8 library manipulation slots to 7 etc. I built in a compare function, where you can submit what number you are on currently and what number you want to go to, after which it shows you the difference between the two (i.e. now I run 21 lands but I'm thinking of going up to 22 or the other way around). I also added in some evaluation logic for the manabase. As long as you have >= 14 initial manasources for a given colour, that slot colours green. 12 or 13 colours it orange, anything below 12 turns it red. It also tells you if your current manabase is stable or not. All green and 21+ lands = stable, any red or total land count under 21 = unstable, everything in between is risky. Oh, and I added in a graph to visualize the manacurve.

I also have a random hand generator I built a couple of years ago I can throw in there, if anyone'd want it.

Did you place it somewhere online or is it accessible?

[Echelon]

Not yet. I'll get back to you on that.

Edit: Just let me know where to e-mail this thing. Whoever is interested, just send me a PM with your e-mail address.

[Ricardio]

Interesting..why dp you think STE is necessary?

And the deck seems pretty f'in hateful if you know what I mean; I imagine the standard Ricardio though process: "People be arguing that SG or abeyance is better than the other and vice verse? I'm going to play both lol".

Very interesting ill try both myself. I have never liked spirit of the l tho, I will replace them with grips to be more hateful and because i hate when the one that gets to durdle with top is the opponent.

E: if you want to have a laugh go read one of my last posts in this thread [emoji4]

All this ramp and update math has me thinking and thus far STE has been good so he will stay.
HAHA its as if you know me or something ^_^
I saw someone earlier suggest SotL and I thought his/her points were very valid so I actually did cut 2 krosan grip for them.
HAHA yes I saw those and what a skillful photographic humorist you are!


Hahahaha still the shade on Titania? I thought we had adequately hashed out that it's a SB card that would be pulled out in creature intensive MUs lacking bolts/StP like Eldrazi and which is probably a meta call anyway. But ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I agree with echelon that titania is more along the lines of a pet card and isn't the correct choice for rhino fit. I do believe a maverick shell with her, kotr and safekeeper can be super synergized but this isn't that thread.

To echo echelon, Sigarda is OUR 5 drop like Rhino is our 4 drop. Until Wotc gets drunk and prints out something better, we are good with those.

[Warden]

@Ricardio: I'm reading into your last comment a bit, "To echo echelon, Sigarda is OUR 5 drop like Rhino is our 4 drop. Until Wotc gets drunk and prints out something better, we are good with those."

For Rhino-Fit, Rhino appears to be the correct 4 drop. He definitely runs through a large % of the competitive meta. But I don't think Rhino-Fit is the only competitive configuration for Junk (not to put words in your mouth, but I'm getting a sense you implied this). I wouldn't be so quick to write off other variations of NicFit or other 4 drops. I still see value in Thrun, who most of us friend-zoned or some of the 4 drop walkers (walker-fit).

EDIT: Meren is also a quality 4 drop IMHO.

[Ricardio]

@Ricardio: I'm reading into your last comment a bit, "To echo echelon, Sigarda is OUR 5 drop like Rhino is our 4 drop. Until Wotc gets drunk and prints out something better, we are good with those."

For Rhino-Fit, Rhino appears to be the correct 4 drop. He definitely runs through a large % of the competitive meta. But I don't think Rhino-Fit is the only competitive configuration for Junk (not to put words in your mouth, but I'm getting a sense you implied this). I wouldn't be so quick to write off other variations of NicFit or other 4 drops. I still see value in Thrun, who most of us friend-zoned or some of the 4 drop walkers (walker-fit).

EDIT: Meren is also a quality 4 drop IMHO.

Rhino: Etb trigger, trample, 4/5 4 cmc green creature
Sigarda: flying, hexproof, 5/5 5 cmc green creature legendary(sadface)

I understand what you mean. I do not think rhino fit is the only junk fit configuration but it is the one I have been and will be testing. I know there is an sfm build Jain has put many hours into and there are likely others that don't fit(lol) the previous two descriptions. I hope we can find the best and work on it.
Thrun is good in many matchups and Meren is basically a one of staple now, for me at least. I just know that when I gsz, its probably for rhino. The only time im sad to draw a rhino is when I need land or an answer, otherwise he is absurd. Rhino does what I need and its consistent, what more can you ask for? Thrun is a one of and I think much better in the jund build with kwr. I usually play a thrun and a garruk relentless in my board but garruk got much better now that he doesn't die to decay(when hes flipped).
I am a 4 rhino, 1 meren, 1 sigarda now the other 46 cards(4 therapy, 4 vet. KEEP UP, PEOPLE) can be figured out kind of junk pilot right now.

EDIT: I fear everyone is quick to take my comments negatively or feel they should take offense but I don't want to convey that. I am proud of what we do here and I am even more proud of how we treat one another. The beauty of Nic Fit is that we can configure and test most anything into it and when something is suggested we don't immediately tell that person they are wrong and how stupid they are for suggesting it. The work everyone does on the archetype does not lose importance based on specifics. Scapewish is a real nic fit deck and some people like it and may even love it. They are working on that and cross referencing opinions with others in this thread. I believe the punishing jund fit is very strong as well as sfm junk fit but they aren't my playstyle so I work on rhino fit. I don't want to stifle any progress. Nic Fit needs zealous people willing to put in the time for the version they love. I think we need to stop feeling like we are arguing against other versions and start discussing for them. this thread is to better the deck, not tell others why theirs is wrong.

[Arianrhod]

I've been in a brewing mood this morning, so I threw on some DarkSouls 3 soundtrack and went to work. I have four lists that I will present below:

[Experimental] Natural Attack

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Worldspine Wurm

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
3 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sneak Attack

2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
3 Slaughter Games
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction

I've had this brewing on the back burner for a while. I don't have the ability to test it, sadly, as I don't own a lot of the cards that it uses. I think it needs room for spot removal, but as-conceptualized its plan is to just go harder than its opponent, with enough card advantage to draw into enablers, get Atarka and wipe the board to stabilize. Vs slower decks you can savage them with Primus or Wurm. This deck was basically sparked by trying to think how we can abuse Meren more. Sneak Attack seems like a pretty natural fit for Meren, and at the point at which you're running things like Atarka, Wurm, and Primus (and Primeval because 4 lands, two of which are the Two Towers), Natural Order begins to make a lot of sense too. It's possible that the deck should focus on just Sneak Attack and drop the NO plan, but I'm unsure. As I said, I can't really test this version very well, but my spider senses are tingling. I think there's something there if somebody wants to take charge and put some work in on it.

Speaking of spider senses, you may notice an innocuous little 2-drop that will be making further appearances in my other lists: Deadly Recluse. I believe this is the answer that I was looking for initially in Glissa. The problem with Glissa was that she didn't do enough work vs non-Eldrazi. I still wanted a Zenithable creature with Reach, so I did some gatherer digging, and I found this little guy. More of the other various spiders have a host of problems, mostly that they either cost too much (Ancient Spider) or that they just don't do enough (1/3s, which lose to Delver), etc. Deadly Recluse will 1-for-1 a Delver while also stonewalling Thought-Knot Seers and Tarmogoyfs. The card basically demands that a removal spell be spent on clearing it out of the way (which we can then Meren it back easily, as its a 2-drop). Spiderbro is also very cheap -- it's reasonable to Zenith it into play on turn 2 after Vet/Therapy shenanigans, and it will almost certainly come down before that Delver kills you. We -could- just run another removal spell, yes, but as we've discussed -- there is a lot of merit in utilizing Zenith better, and it's not hard to look on spiderbro as a Zenithable removal spell. It's not QUITE that good, obviously, as they still have the creature -- but until the day WotC grants our wishes and gives us a cheap BG shriekmaw, I think he's the best we've got.

One strength of red lists at the moment is that they get to run Slaughter Games for free, without destabilizing their manabase, and they get REB. It's possible that the sideboard as sketched above should be higher on REBs, actually -- the card is great against all of the top tier contenders except for Lands and Eldrazi at the moment, and it's great vs many of the expected decks that we should plan to face throughout our Grand Prix experiences (Delver, Miracles, Shardless). It's even good against Painter and Sneak/Show. The trick is that the red lists have historically had problems killing people, especially Punishing, which is otherwise a very stable deck.

Anyway, moving on:

[Updated] The Ceaseless Distortion

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Ancient Stirrings

2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

1 Eye of Ugin

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wastes
1 Karakas

sb::
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Obstinate Baloth

I've had to take a long, hard look at this deck and what it's trying to do. I like a lot of the concepts in it -- Thought-Knot Seer is probably the best card in this deck, ala Siege Rhino. Beating combo game 1 because you tear their hand apart with Therapy and Thought-Knots feels amazing. I've tried this deck on every end of the scale -- I've gone basically full 12post (you never go full 12post) all the way up to Emrakul, and I've gone as low as 1 Primeval and 1 Cloudpost. I think that this size, as above, is where I want to be with it.

Kozilek 2.0 and Ulamog 2.0 are the payoffs for this deck, as well as Ugin. Those three cards are why you want to run this version at the top-end, basically. You don't need more than 2 Cloudposts to achieve those levels of mana -- you're running all of the Glimmers anyway because they're a great colorless source for Thought-Knot and Kozilek, and they fill the lifegain role very nicely (in addition to making Primeval a functional Thragtusk when you need him to be). More than 2 Cloudposts starts running into mana problems, both in terms of things coming into play tapped too often, and in terms of too much colorless mana.

A further problem that this deck had was the lack of a draw engine outside of Kozilek. As per my recent assertion that Miracles is not effectively beatable without Slaughter Games, I decided to add that package to this deck. That allows for Painful Truths to be a viable card for this deck, especially with the Wood Elves->Taiga. The innovation of Tireless Tracker also helps quite a bit.

This version likely has the best Miracles matchup out of any version, to the point of it likely approaching 70-80% win rate, but it comes at the cost of losing ground against Delver. It can go up to the full set of Decays, as well as 3 Deed + Deluge, and Obstinate Baloths with Glimmerposts to recoup life, but I'm still a lot more uneasy vs Delver with this particular list.

[Updated] Thune

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
2 Spike Feeder
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Painful Truths

2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip

[Updated] Rhinos

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Painful Truths

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip

Both of these lists are very similar, with the only real difference coming in the creature package, so I'll lump them together.

The cost of adding the Spike/Thune combo is exactly 1 more maindeck Path to Exile. With the addition of spiderbro, Thune now has 16 interaction slots maindeck, while Rhino gets an extra Path and has 17. The benefits of Spike/Thune is that you have a combo finish, and Painful Truths is a bit less painful due to the presence of the Spikes, which can block + gain 4 against pressure. You also have extra lifelinking flying bodies, which have been the best way to close out games in my experience.

On the other hand, Rhino is a little more aggressive because it's a bit lower to the ground, and it bolts the opponent when it comes down. Rhino being Zenithable also helps pressure the opponent a bit more, whereas you have to just draw your angels. Rhino vs Thune (the cards, not the decks) is actually a very interesting comparison: they both functionally cost 5 (rhino off of Zenith, plus its tricolor cost sometimes delays it a turn vs wastelands). They both have functional evasion, as one tramples and the other flies; they both gain life, one immediately and the other on swing; and they both offer additional functionality, one through growing the team and having a combo, and the other through Meren/Nightmare/blink bullshittery.

Side note on that topic: we should probably look into Restoration Angel more than we have. Those who are looking to lower the curve and stop at Sigarda might be especially interested in Resto, since those lists are trying to be more aggressive, and flickering a Rhino (in general, let alone if you can do it in response to a Swords to Plowshares) is going to kill somebody very, very quickly.

So yeah. That's where my mind has been for the last couple days.

[Plm]

I don't get some of the arguments against my favorite smith.

I can get the "I've tried her and she doesn't nic fit my play style" but "she needs mana" , yeah that's the point : a threat that we can play when we don't get to explorer mana but get better if the mana flows.

Also "dies to your own deed" , I can get behind but not if the people are advocating a 3 or 4 DRS build.

Against miracle, yes removal in response to equip is where tempo goes to die, fortunately the match is going to go long, and the fact that they need to remove every critter we play put the pressure on their removal (think how kessig wolf run plays out in punishing fit).

On the other hand I recognize that she is slower than rhino and doesn't have the combo finish of thune.

I've tried playing rhino alongside but hadn't enough slots.

Side note : about a planeswalker to fight jace, doesn't elspeth n1 fit the bill ?

[sdematt]

I don't get some of the arguments against my favorite smith.

I can get the "I've tried her and she doesn't nic fit my play style" but "she needs mana" , yeah that's the point : a threat that we can play when we don't get to explorer mana but get better if the mana flows.

Also "dies to your own deed" , I can get behind but not if the people are advocating a 3 or 4 DRS build.

Against miracle, yes removal in response to equip is where tempo goes to die, fortunately the match is going to go long, and the fact that they need to remove every critter we play put the pressure on their removal (think how kessig wolf run plays out in punishing fit).

On the other hand I recognize that she is slower than rhino and doesn't have the combo finish of thune.

I've tried playing rhino alongside but hadn't enough slots.

Side note : about a planeswalker to fight jace, doesn't elspeth n1 fit the bill ?

Both Elspeths, Garruks, and Sorin do, yes.

[square_two]

I am back. Felt like i needed a break since i started a tiff but we all good now. i love this thread, this deck and all yous guys/gals.

FRIENDLY REMINDER OF THIS DECK: 1-0 IN A LEAGUE

http://i.imgur.com/QuhVyLV.png

will post decklist http://i.imgur.com/c3LBu2L.png

I had the satisfaction of winning last night with only 30 seconds on the clock...using GARRUK'S ULTIMATE. Opponent had a Mirran Crusader and killed my Stoneforge Mystic the turn prior, which allowed me to do +3/+3 and trample for the team (Rhino, Sigarda, 3 deathtouch beasties), was glorious. Wish I'd taken a screenshot.

[Gruby]

Hi.
Last days I have problems with my punishing-fit
1. I'm out of gas having a load of lands
2. I can't play together Lilly+Groove or Groove+Pfire nor any of this combinations
3. Got mana screwed :eek:
4. No creature on board...

I'm comceding playing truths or scryings or maybe split? 1/1? 2/1?

Any tips?

[Bobmans]

Hi.
Last days I have problems with my punishing-fit
1. I'm out of gas having a load of lands
2. I can't play together Lilly+Groove or Groove+Pfire nor any of this combinations
3. Got mana screwed :eek:
4. No creature on board...

I'm comceding playing truths or scryings or maybe split? 1/1? 2/1?

Any tips?

Well, maybe a list would be helpful here.
1. Being mana flooded happens, typically lists run 22 lands in the configuration below. Keeping uncracked fetches to improve later SDT spins helps to. I also find that Courser of Kruphix is a solid choice to unfuck bad top's and find pieces faster or to the least gains some life. The biggest issue i have with Jund NicFit is the lack of it's high CMC beef. Stormbreath Dragon is closest with that, but other then Thragtusk and Huntmaster of the Fells, not really. But if you want a manasink, ThrunRun...
2. No, sequencing your lands properly is a thing. We can get away with a lot of crap, as long as wel got to crack Dora and make our first 1 or 2 land drops the exact right ones. This totally depends on the opening hand (correct mulligans), what we are up against (mainly if we expect Wasteland or not) and what do we want to sequence into. Sequencing often is opening with either G or B, then either another B or a R depending on Pfire vs Liliana. I often hold Grove in my hand until i have PFire ready.
3. That also happens, quite a lot actually, taking mulligan's and sequencing is key. But as mentioned, in a deck running both Liliana and the full 4 Grove package is asking for it sometimes. A lot of solid hands rely on the proper choice of what to fetch. In my experience, if you can hold green mana you can get away with it. No access to green is often killing. Other devastating things are, not finding Grove or PFire, being forced to fetch duals into Wasteland and not playing into countermagic/Daze/Pierce while low on mana/land count.
4. The deck is all about board control, i learned to play more conservative on the creatures on my opening hand and taking care to what to actually fetch with GSZ and not waste it to much.
5. Since PFire builds are so tight already i have trouble getting in some PTruths. Because the games tend to be long the overall effect of drawing 3 is stretched out. Meaning that quality of quantity matters here.

All in all it depends on soo many factors. This deck is always a mega MEGA grind throughout a tournament. Gaining full board control requires time and patience. On key line is: just enough, just in time.

So for a manabase:
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 flex (Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run or Mountain).

[Ricardio]

I had the satisfaction of winning last night with only 30 seconds on the clock...using GARRUK'S ULTIMATE. Opponent had a Mirran Crusader and killed my Stoneforge Mystic the turn prior, which allowed me to do +3/+3 and trample for the team (Rhino, Sigarda, 3 deathtouch beasties), was glorious. Wish I'd taken a screenshot.

That sounds like a beautiful screen. Very nice job, sir. Which garruk?


Hi.
Last days I have problems with my punishing-fit
1. I'm out of gas having a load of lands
2. I can't play together Lilly+Groove or Groove+Pfire nor any of this combinations
3. Got mana screwed :eek:
4. No creature on board...

I'm comceding playing truths or scryings or maybe split? 1/1? 2/1?

Any tips?

I suggest trying pruths, its very strong.

1. Pruths could help here. Also Thrun/KWR
2. Oath of Nissa might be adorable enough? otherwise consult Echelon on your manabase. Hes kind of a manabase wizard.
3. Do you run Sakura tribe elder? Deathrite shaman? They help quite a bit otherwise, see 2 :)
4. Junds major weakness is the creature base. Thrun, broodmate, prime time, 3 huntmaster, thragtusk, 4 gsz was my threat density back in the day.

Otherwise, maybe 2-3 tops is amazing. Keep working on Jund, its very strong.

EDIT: Bobman is also great at nic fit stuff!

[TTX]

Play Tireless Tracker in Jund Fit. He's easy to cast 2G, and demands any answer, otherwise the card advantage and beating is off the hook


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jain_Mor]

@square_two, were you the one who said they had an odd stompy list? Can you post it or PM it to me if you prefer, I'm very curious :)

@Plm, I agree, there were some really odd posts a few pages back about SFM, I think some were from @echelon?

@The theorists, I think now after our theoretical experiment what needs to be done now is less theory crafting and more play testing. Theory can only get you so far unfortunately. And I mean real testing, not "I played 4 games last night with blah blah and this happened" :P as Ricardio said, I've but the time into SFM and have the numbers to back up my points. That said I'm going to be trying 4 tops and STE as a result of our discussions. We just need to go away and play a lot of games, and take some brief notes so you at least remember your matches and wins/losses


@Arianrhod, wow that sneak attack idea is pretty great/new! I've tried a few NO lists in my time but neve thought to include sneak attack.. With Meren to, that's some sexy damn hot sauce.

[Brael]

Just info from one deck (got in a few side games at FNM tonight) but Dark Confidant absolutely carried me in some games tonight against Infect. I lost on average about 1 life/turn which wasn't a big deal since I gained much more than that and was able to just bury them in card advantage. Nearly 1/2 of my deck (29/61) is capable of generating CA or at least library manipulation right now, and much of it does so while putting some power onto the field. It's like playing blue, but better though most of my cards generate on average less than 1 card in extra value per turn.

Finally figured out the sequencing when Courser/Bob are both down with a Top too. I still maintain the two are largely competing with each other, but that extra point of life goes a long ways in pressing the advantage. The correct play seems to be taking a hit off Bob for the lowest CMC between the 3 on top (excluding the first land), then drawing for the turn, then playing a land from the top of the library, and then toping for a fresh 3.

All in all, I'm really liking this strategy of mixing low numbers of lots of different CA engines and then having them all combine into a whole that's greater than the sum of their parts.


Side note on that topic: we should probably look into Restoration Angel more than we have. Those who are looking to lower the curve and stop at Sigarda might be especially interested in Resto, since those lists are trying to be more aggressive, and flickering a Rhino (in general, let alone if you can do it in response to a Swords to Plowshares) is going to kill somebody very, very quickly.

So yeah. That's where my mind has been for the last couple days.

I've thought about Angels many times. The conclusion I constantly come to is that there's only so many 4 drop slots, 4 seems to be the max. If I want to play an Angel as a pseudo Rhino, why not just play another Rhino instead? I haven't yet figured out a reason I would want an Angel after 4 Rhinos.



@The theorists, I think now after our theoretical experiment what needs to be done now is less theory crafting and more play testing. Theory can only get you so far unfortunately. And I mean real testing, not "I played 4 games last night with blah blah and this happened" :P as Ricardio said, I've but the time into SFM and have the numbers to back up my points. That said I'm going to be trying 4 tops and STE as a result of our discussions. We just need to go away and play a lot of games, and take some brief notes so you at least remember your matches and wins/losses


I would love to put in more testing, but outside of a structured environment everything comes down to "I played X games, and this happened". The only variable is the X with the size of the tournament. Sadly, our local Legacy night is the same night I have a night class, so until the semester is over the number of games I get is greatly reduced (good news, it's over next week... bad news, I'm traveling for a month after that).

That said, I've always been of the opinion that if something works, it's readily apparent after it happens once or twice. If something doesn't work it tends to be a bit more questionable.

[Echelon]

2. Oath of Nissa might be adorable enough? otherwise consult Echelon on your manabase. Hes kind of a manabase wizard.
3. Do you run Sakura tribe elder? Deathrite shaman? They help quite a bit otherwise, see 2 :)


Manabases means numbers matter. I like numbers!



@The theorists, I think now after our theoretical experiment what needs to be done now is less theory crafting and more play testing. Theory can only get you so far unfortunately. And I mean real testing, not "I played 4 games last night with blah blah and this happened" :P as Ricardio said, I've but the time into SFM and have the numbers to back up my points. That said I'm going to be trying 4 tops and STE as a result of our discussions. We just need to go away and play a lot of games, and take some brief notes so you at least remember your matches and wins/losses

Seconded! The only problem for me is that I get to play physical Magic once a month, if I'm lucky. The next event I might manage to attend is in the first week of june. Whenever I manage to meet up with my buddy (which will be before that) I like to play with my other toys too and the only comparison I get is vs. Grixis Delver (on Stifles, so if my manabase is stable through that it'll work anywhere), a silly D&T build and a Modern Blood Moon deck. And on those days I also want to play my other crazy shit...

Ah, the paradox of Legacy. It isn't until you're an adult that you have the means to afford Legacy but when you are an adult you also hardly have the time to play it. Or at least that's the case for me.

[Brael]

In order to broaden my playing opportunity, I've thought about buying into the deck on MTGO especially with League play now being a thing. I threw my list on tappedout earlier and they were pricing the deck at only 240 tix which seems mostly reasonable, especially in comparison to the paper cost. Alternatively I can continue with my long term plan of slowly building a better pool of Legacy staples. My next step would be Badlands and Groves to open up the Jund builds.

Not sure I want to play the deck online though considering how popular Eldrazi and Miracles are. Not because the matchups are bad, but rather just because I don't like playing against them.

[rubblekill]

In order to broaden my playing opportunity, I've thought about buying into the deck on MTGO especially with League play now being a thing. I threw my list on tappedout earlier and they were pricing the deck at only 240 tix which seems mostly reasonable, especially in comparison to the paper cost. Alternatively I can continue with my long term plan of slowly building a better pool of Legacy staples. My next step would be Badlands and Groves to open up the Jund builds.

Not sure I want to play the deck online though considering how popular Eldrazi and Miracles are. Not because the matchups are bad, but rather just because I don't like playing against them.

I think we should create a list containing the names and IGNs of all the people who post in here and are active on modo. That would make it easier to discuss topics such as meta calls/sb decisions and would provide valuable players to play test against.

[Tao]

So for a manabase:
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 flex (Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run or Mountain).

The mana base is wrong. It should be 3 Swamp, 2 Forest because of the 4 Groves.

[Ralf]

The mana base is wrong. It should be 3 Swamp, 2 Forest because of the 4 Groves.

And also because of Liliana.
Not having 2 swamp left to fetch for on a veteran trigger and cast Liliana in the same turn can cost you a game.

[Jain_Mor]

Even playing on cockatrice/x-mage is valid data.

I just mean to say that talking only gets us so far, and if you want to champion or challenge an idea you need something to back it up with. I don't mind how long it takes you to get those results :P

And I speak of large shifts in the core of the deck (like playing much more than 6 ramp cards) or moving away from 4 rhinos, or towards SFM etc. obviously it can be quite apparent quite quickly when a single card or synergy isn't working or when something is. But it might take more to convince others.

That's why I record data for my deck and post them here every 25-50 games or so.

And my modo handle is, Jain_Mor

[Bobmans]

The mana base is wrong. It should be 3 Swamp, 2 Forest because of the 4 Groves.


Doesnt matter if it is 1 card, everything is wrong about it. Now please arrest me.

[Gruby]

@ my second point thoughts was about that I can't get the "punishing combo" online. It's always missing one part from lilly+pfire+groove :cry: that makes me mad

And here's the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Deathrite shaman
1 Primeval Titan

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run


I see that primetime is more like an overkill than regular fatty. His ability is almost useless (imo) anbd considering changing 1titan and 1 witness for 2 stormbreath dragon.

[sdematt]

@ my second point thoughts was about that I can't get the "punishing combo" online. It's always missing one part from lilly+pfire+groove :cry: that makes me mad

And here's the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Deathrite shaman
1 Primeval Titan

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run


I see that primetime is more like an overkill than regular fatty. His ability is almost useless (imo) anbd considering changing 1titan and 1 witness for 2 stormbreath dragon.

Primeval isn't garbage, I just feel like I want a threat that lives through STP in the this deck. For my personal flavour, I'd cut a Fires for an Intent (allows you to tutor for combo), and I'd try to jam Truths in. My two pennies.

[Plm]

@ gruby : the strength of titan lies in fetching kessig, if not answered it's a 2 turn clock, if they have the answer for titan, your explorers are 3 turn clock at least (or combine kessig with thrun for absolute fun). If you remove titan , remove kessig as well.

Stormbreath is nice but since it is non green you should play multiple in order to see it.

[Tao]

@ my second point thoughts was about that I can't get the "punishing combo" online. It's always missing one part from lilly+pfire+groove :cry: that makes me mad

And here's the list:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Deathrite shaman
1 Primeval Titan

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen

4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run


I see that primetime is more like an overkill than regular fatty. His ability is almost useless (imo) anbd considering changing 1titan and 1 witness for 2 stormbreath dragon.

Mana:
You really don't need that 3rd Forest. Other Nic Fit versions play 3, but in comparison you already have 4 additional permanent Green sources in Groves. So I am very sure that
- 1 Forest
+ 1 Bayou
is just a clear improvement. Also 3 colorless lands are too much. Make your decison on (Edit) Stronghold vs. Wolf Run. I say play (Edit) Stronghold as long as you have two Witnesses and Tusk, others might argue for keeping Wolf Run. So
- 1 (Edit) Stronghold / Wolf Run
+ 1 Bloodstained Mire.

This will make it much easier to cast Liliana and it will avoid mana problems in general.

Threats:
- I would not replace Titan without a good huge replacement. GSZ gets really much worse if you manage to ramp to 8 Mana, draw your X-Spell and... get a Huntmaster. I still think Primeval is good, he will set up a much stronger Fire engine for the rest of the game or your Two Towers. I think Dragonlord Atarka is playable, maybe he is an alternative if you really hate Titan.
- a 3rd Liliana sounds good, if you fix your Mana
- Stormbreath Dragon is not a good card in general, but on the other hand he is clearly very good in this meta.
- Vraska seems bad, especially once you played new Sorin

Punishing Fire Nic Fit in general:
- seems to be not in the best place in general, it lacks power and looks underwhelming. The entire thing might need a revamp.

[Brael]

On the subject of testing, something I've been trying to do lately is track how many cards I see per game vs how many my opponent sees. It's tough to track because it's a lot of extra information to keep track of (SDT is 3 if it's fresh, but only 1 if it's not for example) but I'm slowly gathering data. Also tracking total cards drawn per game. So far the results are pretty positive and my build is keeping up with and even surpassing blue decks. Of course, because we need/want to make more land drops we automatically start at a deficit of -2 cards/game or so that we need to see above them just to break even.


Punishing Fire Nic Fit in general:
- seems to be not in the best place in general, it lacks power and looks underwhelming. The entire thing might need a revamp.

Tried something like this a few posts back but it's still untested. Continuing my current focus of card advantage and overwhelming the opponents removal opposed to dodging it which is working very well. I think there's a valid shell for Jund under such circumstances, most notably it looks like it can improve the combo and Miracles matchups at the cost of being worse against Eldrazi and probably other midrange decks.

[Echelon]

That's an interesting thing to keep track of. SE Fit (not trying to beat a dead horse here, so bear with me) should average the highest number of cards seen per game (due to 4 Tops and the huge library manipulation/CA suite in general), especially if we manage to stick a KotR in there (Top, tap Knight and get a fetchland, Top, crack fetch, Top, maybe find GSZ).

[Brael]

That's an interesting thing to keep track of. SE Fit (not trying to beat a dead horse here, so bear with me) should average the highest number of cards seen per game (due to 4 Tops and the huge library manipulation/CA suite in general), especially if we manage to stick a KotR in there (Top, tap Knight and get a fetchland, Top, crack fetch, Top, maybe find GSZ).

Played a few more games, tried out Jund Fit but my opponent was on Eldrazi. We were doing a best of 7 but it ended in my defeat after 4 games. I only managed to pull ahead in one game on the back of a double Therapy hand with a vet, while my opponent was stuck on Eye+Wasteland as his only lands. I still lost that game. Seems pretty much unwinnable. But that's just one deck, I'm not giving up on it yet.

Since the Jund vs Eldrazi match was over so quickly there was time for some SE Fit vs Delver games. Won like usual but the games were more about tracking cards. Games I won went long and averaged around 22 cards seen/20 drawn for me and 9 seen/18 drawn for Delver ending on turn 11. Games Delver won were about half that. That includes the initial 7 drawn and 1 per turn under the drawn category, but seen is just extra cards looked at and not grabbed. The main difference was that Delver was usually able to see more cards at once, while it was much more incremental for Nic Fit, so over time it pulled ahead pretty easily (especially since all those extra cards seen lead to on board 2 for 1's which generated a lot of the actual CA) but if looking for something in a short span of time Delver was still favored. In hands with Top, I was always ahead in the cards seen category by a pretty healthy number, in hands without Top I didn't really catch up until turn 5. But, I was usually able to pull ahead in actual cards by turn 3-4.

[cherson]

(Top, tap Knight and get a fetchland, Top, crack fetch, Top, maybe find GSZ).

Reminds me playing against miracles [emoji2]

[rubblekill]

http://i.imgur.com/5WPvvTK.jpg

The hardlock is real; his T1 Duress was long and in that time, looking at the hand containing TS, Teeg and S.S. (aka Safekeeper), the opponent conveyed a clear sense of surprise followed only by his quick demise.
For me the real question is if S.S. is a SB card only. At the moment my answer is yes, but I'll keep testing with him in the main to form the definitive opinion.

[TTX]

I moved more toward Scapeshift Fit. I was testing the Italian Punishing version, but found it too inconsistent in the mana base.
I switched the mana base to ArianRhod's version from three years ago, and it has been fantastic.

The list focuses more on the combo than the beatdown, though that is a real alternative, especially if Tireless Tracker goes unchecked.

Anyway here's my updated list, it has been working quite well. I'm still trying to sculpt the sideboard better, I'm not sure if Pyroclasm and Massacre are necessary. Slaughter Games is great for neutering most mid range and control decks, but maybe three copies is too many (six virtual copies games 2 and 3).

1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wood Elves

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Scapeshift

4 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Vexing Shusher
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge

[Hmmm_Really?]

Went 4-2 for 11th place (out of 63) at GP Toronto side event yesterday. Moral of the story: you win some, you lose some.....

//Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath

//Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Anguished Unmaking
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truths
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge

//Creatures
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer

//Sideboard
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Slaughter Games
1 Ruination
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vindicate
1 Pithing Needle


R1 Chris on Punishing Jund: Win 2-0

R2 Colin on Miracles: Win 2-0!!!!!
You win some, you lose some. He mulled G1 and fast Rhinos got there before he could stabilise. G2 Slaughter Games took his 3 Jaces and an Ooze and a Rhino did their job.

R3 Julian on Merfolk: Win 2-0
Caught a blind FoW with Therapy in G1, then removed a Lord, then Rhino beats after Deed took his board. Similar story in G2

So, I'm 3-0 (6-0 in games) at this point.

R4 Aaron on Miracles: Lose 0-2
You win some, you lose some. Deck and sideboard decided to be ordinary for this match. If I don't get early pressure and/or find Slaughter Games/Surgical/Sorin/Garruk then they are safe. T1 Needle on Top slowed him down but my Sylvan Library was serving rubbish. So I had to take 8 life to dig deeper and found... nothing. Angels came the turn after and my Deed was FoW'ed.

R5 Ryan on Sneak and Show: Win 2-0
You win some, you lose some. Even after BS'ing and Pondering and Preordaining, he missed land drops early in G1. So I named Petal with a blind Therapy and, as it turned out, that won the game. It set him back by a couple of turns, enough so that I was able to find another Therapy (before sacc'ing Vet) to clean up his hand. With a Karakas on board as insurance, down came two Rhinos. MVP in G2 was Chains. He FoW'ed the first Chains but I got it back with a GSZ/Witness. Therapy took the good stuff and the Chains locked out his BS/Ponder/Preordains, keeping him in top deck mode... drawing lands. While I kept his hand in check with Therapy/TS, the Witness attacked for 7 turns and a final GSZ into Rhino sealed the win.

Record is 4-1 going into R6 and I'm sitting at 7th. There's no Top 8 (snafu here.... long story) so we played out for all the glory.

R6 Justin on Sneak and Show: Lose 1-2
You win some, you lose some. He got Omni on the board in G1 but couldn't draw anything fast enough before a single Rhino took him to zero. Games 2 and 3 were the opposite. He had the nuts and I didn't draw enough anti-combo cards.

So, 4-2 on the day put me at 11th for 24 booster packs. Cracked a foil Marsh Flats and an Arlinn Kord. Not too shabby.

Thoughts:

Slaughter Games does its job.... if you draw it.
I like Chains. Yes, I know it shouldn't be in my sideboard (Matt!) but that warm fuzzy feeling when it resolves.... almost sexual ;-)
Sorin hit the board once all day. Sorin/Stronghold combo is too Christmas-land cute for me. In this deck, I'll be replacing it with either a GSZ'able green creature at cmc=4 (Thrun?) or Sylvan Safekeeper. In both cases I'm thinking they will put more pressure on Miracles. Mind you, Sorin did blind-flip a Rhino before it was Council'ed away.
Sakura (the Janitor), Top and Library performed well. Didn't see Pruths so can't comment.
One swamp isn't enough.
Unusual field; no anyDelver.dec and no DnT. Probably skewed by the 1,700 Standard players in the room.

Over and out.

[Ganfar]

Well, maybe a list would be helpful here.
1. Being mana flooded happens, typically lists run 22 lands in the configuration below. Keeping uncracked fetches to improve later SDT spins helps to. I also find that Courser of Kruphix is a solid choice to unfuck bad top's and find pieces faster or to the least gains some life. The biggest issue i have with Jund NicFit is the lack of it's high CMC beef. Stormbreath Dragon is closest with that, but other then Thragtusk and Huntmaster of the Fells, not really. But if you want a manasink, ThrunRun...
2. No, sequencing your lands properly is a thing. We can get away with a lot of crap, as long as wel got to crack Dora and make our first 1 or 2 land drops the exact right ones. This totally depends on the opening hand (correct mulligans), what we are up against (mainly if we expect Wasteland or not) and what do we want to sequence into. Sequencing often is opening with either G or B, then either another B or a R depending on Pfire vs Liliana. I often hold Grove in my hand until i have PFire ready.
3. That also happens, quite a lot actually, taking mulligan's and sequencing is key. But as mentioned, in a deck running both Liliana and the full 4 Grove package is asking for it sometimes. A lot of solid hands rely on the proper choice of what to fetch. In my experience, if you can hold green mana you can get away with it. No access to green is often killing. Other devastating things are, not finding Grove or PFire, being forced to fetch duals into Wasteland and not playing into countermagic/Daze/Pierce while low on mana/land count.
4. The deck is all about board control, i learned to play more conservative on the creatures on my opening hand and taking care to what to actually fetch with GSZ and not waste it to much.
5. Since PFire builds are so tight already i have trouble getting in some PTruths. Because the games tend to be long the overall effect of drawing 3 is stretched out. Meaning that quality of quantity matters here.

All in all it depends on soo many factors. This deck is always a mega MEGA grind throughout a tournament. Gaining full board control requires time and patience. On key line is: just enough, just in time.

So for a manabase:
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 flex (Volrath's Stronghold or Kessig Wolf Run or Mountain).

I just was going to post my list about this issue. I want more cretures in my deck but I don't have any room. I maybe want a Couser as a 61th card in the deck, but rather avoid that.

1. I added Lillana becasue she can be good agaist some match up but I want rather have cretures.
2. About the lands, I haven't be so inpress of Volrath's stronghold yet. Help sometimes but not all the time
3. 22 land with only one mountain. I want that mountatin so I can cast my P.Fire serval times per turn. I feel that I am manaflood sometimes so maybe have to cut it :/

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga Land
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Liliana of the Veil Planeswalker - Liliana
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths

Sideboard (15)
2 Slaughter Games
1 Golgari Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Trinisphere
1 Choke
1 Reclamation Sage

[Gruby]

Primeval isn't garbage, I just feel like I want a threat that lives through STP in the this deck. For my personal flavour, I'd cut a Fires for an Intent (allows you to tutor for combo), and I'd try to jam Truths in. My two pennies.

Exactly! Only Thrun is intouchable and "medium size threat" in my list. Already done the switch, looks nice this one foil intent ;) Now i have to play it.



@ gruby : the strength of titan lies in fetching kessig, if not answered it's a 2 turn clock, if they have the answer for titan, your explorers are 3 turn clock at least (or combine kessig with thrun for absolute fun). If you remove titan , remove kessig as well.

Stormbreath is nice but since it is non green you should play multiple in order to see it.

But after I play Titan they draw enough removal/burn for it ;( Or that's maybe my bad luck. Stormbreath is imo always as a 2of and yesterday I switched 1Pfire for 1Diabolic intent


Mana:
You really don't need that 3rd Forest. Other Nic Fit versions play 3, but in comparison you already have 4 additional permanent Green sources in Groves. So I am very sure that
- 1 Forest
+ 1 Bayou
is just a clear improvement. Also 3 colorless lands are too much. Make your decison on (Edit) Stronghold vs. Wolf Run. I say play (Edit) Stronghold as long as you have two Witnesses and Tusk, others might argue for keeping Wolf Run. So
- 1 (Edit) Stronghold / Wolf Run
+ 1 Bloodstained Mire.

This will make it much easier to cast Liliana and it will avoid mana problems in general.

Threats:
- I would not replace Titan without a good huge replacement. GSZ gets really much worse if you manage to ramp to 8 Mana, draw your X-Spell and... get a Huntmaster. I still think Primeval is good, he will set up a much stronger Fire engine for the rest of the game or your Two Towers. I think Dragonlord Atarka is playable, maybe he is an alternative if you really hate Titan.
- a 3rd Liliana sounds good, if you fix your Mana
- Stormbreath Dragon is not a good card in general, but on the other hand he is clearly very good in this meta.
- Vraska seems bad, especially once you played new Sorin

Punishing Fire Nic Fit in general:
- seems to be not in the best place in general, it lacks power and looks underwhelming. The entire thing might need a revamp.

About bayou.... it's the budget thing. Would Overgrown tomb be enough? Same is for third Lilly.
Late game's fetches are often without targets but Vraska shines there. And I use ulti 30% when she hits the table.
Sorin looks bad without white ;)
Punishing is cool about grindy games, but it have hard games with creacures with 4or higher toughness.



I very like this deck but I think I need to have white splash for switching to abzan ;) but money all the time.... and wife's howling about "this paper shit" :laugh:

[Echelon]

Since the Jund vs Eldrazi match was over so quickly there was time for some SE Fit vs Delver games. Won like usual but the games were more about tracking cards. Games I won went long and averaged around 22 cards seen/20 drawn for me and 9 seen/18 drawn for Delver ending on turn 11. Games Delver won were about half that. That includes the initial 7 drawn and 1 per turn under the drawn category, but seen is just extra cards looked at and not grabbed. The main difference was that Delver was usually able to see more cards at once, while it was much more incremental for Nic Fit, so over time it pulled ahead pretty easily (especially since all those extra cards seen lead to on board 2 for 1's which generated a lot of the actual CA) but if looking for something in a short span of time Delver was still favored. In hands with Top, I was always ahead in the cards seen category by a pretty healthy number, in hands without Top I didn't really catch up until turn 5. But, I was usually able to pull ahead in actual cards by turn 3-4.

So what you're saying is that if we manage to survive through the first couple of turns, we have built something that gets to look at (and draw) more cards than your average Delver.dec.

Well gentlemen, look at that. A non-blue deck that looks at and draws more cards than the blue decks. I think it's safe to say that we can be proud of what we've accomplished!

If we want to be completely on par as far as speed is concerned, we need to find a way to dig for Tops. I'll be mulling on this tomorrow.

[sdematt]

So what you're saying is that if we manage to survive through the first couple of turns, we have built something that gets to look at (and draw) more cards than your average Delver.dec.

Well gentlemen, look at that. A non-blue deck that looks at and draws more cards than the blue decks. I think it's safe to say that we can be proud of what we've accomplished!

If we want to be completely on par as far as speed is concerned, we need to find a way to dig for Tops. I'll be mulling on this tomorrow.

Don't make me say E. Tutor or Intent.

[Tao]

I think Punishing Nic Fit is a meta deck and the Meta is wrong for it. It is supposed to beat the creature decks, but it doesnt do that against Eldrazi. Not surprised that Brael got stomped, I had the same results. The deck either needs a complete revamp so that it beats Grixis and D&T while still going at least even against Miracles and Eldrazi. If that is impossible it should be put aside until the meta changes.

[Brael]

Don't make me say E. Tutor or Intent.

Enlightened Tutor might do it, you can always cash it in for a Courser or Deed when you don't want a Top it's still -1 card to cast though, the problem is in making a slot and taking disadvantage now for an advantage later if you can invest enough into it, the deck already gets a good long term payoff as it is.

I don't think Intent works in a build focused on CA though. Outside of the 4 Vets and 1 of Ooze/Witness, every creature generates value by remaining on the battlefield, I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of it to get a Top. In the case of the Confidant/Courser/Tracker CA package, Top really powers all of those up and they stack well with each other. In the case of the bigger things like Rhino or Sigarda it just seems real bad to sacrifice one of them.

[sdematt]

Enlightened Tutor might do it, you can always cash it in for a Courser or Deed when you don't want a Top it's still -1 card to cast though, the problem is in making a slot and taking disadvantage now for an advantage later if you can invest enough into it, the deck already gets a good long term payoff as it is.

I don't think Intent works in a build focused on CA though. Outside of the 4 Vets and 1 of Ooze/Witness, every creature generates value by remaining on the battlefield, I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of it to get a Top. In the case of the Confidant/Courser/Tracker CA package, Top really powers all of those up and they stack well with each other. In the case of the bigger things like Rhino or Sigarda it just seems real bad to sacrifice one of them.

Rhino into Intent into moar Rhino is solid

[Brael]

Rhino into Intent into moar Rhino is solid

Unless your Intent gets countered. Rhino generates too much onboard value to risk it over a mere 3 point drain.

[Brael]

So what you're saying is that if we manage to survive through the first couple of turns, we have built something that gets to look at (and draw) more cards than your average Delver.dec.

Well gentlemen, look at that. A non-blue deck that looks at and draws more cards than the blue decks. I think it's safe to say that we can be proud of what we've accomplished!

If we want to be completely on par as far as speed is concerned, we need to find a way to dig for Tops. I'll be mulling on this tomorrow.

Yes, we draw more cards and create other 2 for 1's. For example I haven't been counting Veteran Explorer triggers as seeing cards or drawing them and we have other on board 2 for 1's as well like Deed and Therapy. I haven't been counting Volraths either, it's not quite draw, and I don't think it quite counts as seeing cards either but in one of my games last night it absolutely won me a game as I was able to Volraths every turn for Arbor, play Arbor from the top with Courser, gain 1, and then use Arbor to chump Gurmag Angler while still getting my draw to go deeper into my library every turn.

Delver effectively stays ahead on cards through most of the game (our need for more lands means we need to get a couple extra cards to break even) with the way I've been counting so far, but we also dig deeper so we're getting better quality and that lets us string together other 2 for 1's. I give it to Delver to hit a sideboard card on turns 1-2 because their digging is cheaper, but I give it to Nic Fit to hit it on 3+ because our digging is better, mana permitting.

[Hmmm_Really?]

Unless your Intent gets countered.

Has anyone ever tried Boseiju, Who Shelters All to force through GSZ, Intent, Vindicate, etc.?

[TTX]

Has anyone ever tried Boseiju, Who Shelters All to force through GSZ, Intent, Vindicate, etc.?

I never have, but I don't think the mana base can handle such a eyesore of a land. I would run Xantid Swarm or Vexing Shusher over Boseiju in Nic Fit.

Or you could just run more Thoughtseizes.:rolleyes:

[Bjorn The Jesus]

I top 8'd the Milwaukee classic today with almighty rhino, I'll try to post a list/report tomorrow maybe.

[Jain_Mor]

I don't think Intent works in a build focused on CA though. Outside of the 4 Vets and 1 of Ooze/Witness, every creature generates value by remaining on the battlefield, I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of it to get a Top.

*cough* sfm ;) *cough*

@Bjorn, that's fan-freaking-tastic, thanks for coming here to share it with us :D

[Brael]

*cough* sfm ;) *cough*

@Bjorn, that's fan-freaking-tastic, thanks for coming here to share it with us :D

SFM builds can definitely use Intent much better than I can. My 2 drop creatures are mainly Bobs, not something I really want to kill off.

Intent gets much better in a deck where your creatures generate high value on cast but low value for remaining on the board. More SFM, Eternal Witness, etc.

[jbone2016]

I top 8'd the Milwaukee classic today with almighty rhino, I'll try to post a list/report tomorrow maybe.

Glad someone did. I went 2-3-1 drop with my last match to a bug pod nic fit player. Meren was sweet (in their build)
I'll post my thought/decklist sometime this week. 4 rhinos is quite wonderful though.

[Echelon]

Don't make me say E. Tutor or Intent.


Enlightened Tutor might do it, you can always cash it in for a Courser or Deed when you don't want a Top it's still -1 card to cast though, the problem is in making a slot and taking disadvantage now for an advantage later if you can invest enough into it, the deck already gets a good long term payoff as it is.

I don't think Intent works in a build focused on CA though. Outside of the 4 Vets and 1 of Ooze/Witness, every creature generates value by remaining on the battlefield, I wouldn't want to sacrifice any of it to get a Top. In the case of the Confidant/Courser/Tracker CA package, Top really powers all of those up and they stack well with each other. In the case of the bigger things like Rhino or Sigarda it just seems real bad to sacrifice one of them.

@Both of these: You guys know Diabolic Intent is one of my most beloved pet cards. The sad truth is that it's card disadvantage (yes, in return it can be an "I win"-button), which is something the SE Fit isn't designed to deal with.


Rhino into Intent into moar Rhino is solid


Unless your Intent gets countered. Rhino generates too much onboard value to risk it over a mere 3 point drain.

No, matt's right. You either cast Intent to bait a counter (b/c you already have what you need in your hand) or you clear the way with Cabal Therapy first. That's how you do it. I've been doing this for years with a build that ran 4(!) Diabolic Intent. Intents' value increases as its pilot gets more experienced in when and how to use it. It certainly should affect your playstyle.


Yes, we draw more cards and create other 2 for 1's. For example I haven't been counting Veteran Explorer triggers as seeing cards or drawing them and we have other on board 2 for 1's as well like Deed and Therapy. I haven't been counting Volraths either, it's not quite draw, and I don't think it quite counts as seeing cards either but in one of my games last night it absolutely won me a game as I was able to Volraths every turn for Arbor, play Arbor from the top with Courser, gain 1, and then use Arbor to chump Gurmag Angler while still getting my draw to go deeper into my library every turn.

Delver effectively stays ahead on cards through most of the game (our need for more lands means we need to get a couple extra cards to break even) with the way I've been counting so far, but we also dig deeper so we're getting better quality and that lets us string together other 2 for 1's. I give it to Delver to hit a sideboard card on turns 1-2 because their digging is cheaper, but I give it to Nic Fit to hit it on 3+ because our digging is better, mana permitting.

Your counting seems to be spot on, my good sir.


Has anyone ever tried Boseiju, Who Shelters All to force through GSZ, Intent, Vindicate, etc.?

Would love to, but can't. It doesn't fit in the manabase, I can't tutor for it and it dies to Wasteland (which at the moment I can mostly ignore).


*cough* sfm ;) *cough*

Fierce Empath into Tasigur or Gurmag Angler :wink:. That means you just cast your Diabolic Intent for free (2 mana, +2 cards in the graveyard = +2 Delve for Tasigur/Gurmag). Oh, and fetch into Dryad Arbor (yes, this again).


Intent gets much better in a deck where your creatures generate high value on cast but low value for remaining on the board. More SFM, Eternal Witness, etc.

Fierce Empaths into Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Summoner's Eggs. That type of stuff :laugh: (I'm not kidding, by the way). I miss my pet cards!


Glad someone did. I went 2-3-1 drop with my last match to a bug pod nic fit player. Meren was sweet (in their build)
I'll post my thought/decklist sometime this week. 4 rhinos is quite wonderful though.

Yeah, it is. I just fear we can't fit all of them though.

@everyone/Brael in particular: I may have found the answer for SE Fit. Mirri's Guile, 3 of them (4 might be too much. Although, keeping in mind we aim to mirror the number of Brainstorms + Ponders any given deck runs that might call for Guile no. 4). To start the filtering process as quickly as we can and look for Top as quickly as possible. After we've found a Top, we do not have to care about what happens to our Guile anymore. Bear with me. To explain why this can be I'll dip into some more Systems Engineering by way of use cases.

Use case no. 1: You start with 1 Guile in your opener
This means that, if we get to resolve it, we turn our draw step into a free almost-Ponder every turn. Ponder as a 1-shot card is good enough to be played. Deed won't wipe Guile away until turn 3+, meaning we've had "Ponder" for our turn 2 and 3 draws. That's quite some value for 1 mana. I'm fine with that. Heck, as long as it triggers at least just once before we blow it up, we've just cast Ponder (which is a perfectly valid thing to do). As long as you have a Guile on the field, you will most likely not draw additional copies of it.

Use case no. 2: You start with >1 Guile in your opener
This means that use case no. 1 applies and you can use the extra copy to bait a counter. If the first resolves, you're stuck with the extra copy in your hand. Now, if we have an extra copy we don't need to care about the first copy being blown up by Deed, do we? Another option is stacking Guile triggers and cracking a fetch between them. If none of these options are valid, we've essentially mulliganed to 6.

Use case no. 3: You start with >0 Guile and >0 SDT in your opener
Both use cases no. 1 and 2 apply. After you get your mana going (and maybe have blown up your Guiles) you drop SDT. The good thing about SDT is that it can help you get rid of it.

What I forgot to say yesterday - the amount of ramp we run is one of the things that allows us to power out SDT more quickly and lets us use it more often without costing us too much tempo.

For quick reference, we'd be talking about the following list, sorted by card type and CMC:
Creatures (14)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifacts (4):
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sorceries & instants (14):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments (6):
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Lands (21):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

A lot of potatoes, very little meat. Perhaps I should give the entire list a overhaul so it matches again with the requirements we set out for it.

I had to reduce the manabase to 21 lands and had to cut 2 Siege Rhino and Meren. Perhaps Sorin should be cut for another Rhino, I don't know. Let me make this clear: This is not the list as I would want to play it, but this is the list we would have to play in order to perform just as consistently as the blue decks we have to compete with. Using this as a base would allow you to more consistently find Slaught Games (or the Sorin we run anyway) to deal with Miracles, for instance, and so on. Mirri's Guile also increases the need for 10 fetchlands.

This'll probably require us to change our playing style a bit.

[DoctorAlice]

Glad someone did. I went 2-3-1 drop with my last match to a bug pod nic fit player. Meren was sweet (in their build)Hey that was me! Been lurking these forums for ages, finally got around to actually registering. I went 3-4, played against a lot of combo over the day.

I'll post my latest list and thoughts later in the week. Preview: Meren is indeed sweet in BUG Pod.

[Jain_Mor]

You guys probably know already, but I'm going to come out the closet here. I'm currently a rhino none believer. There I said it.

And seeing you all hype on about our lord and savior makes me think I'm crazy or you all are.
But I've tried rhino, I really have! And that's why I think you're all delusional. Hear me out and then try and help me please.

When rhino was first spoiled, I was hyped. We ended up living in a treasure cruise blue red metagame filled with pyromancer tokens, delvers, true name nemises and lightning bolts. Rhino was pretty damn fantastic at stabilising and turning the corner in those days. Rhino was great, and I was sold.

Then cruise was banned and things changed. Now we live in a world of goyfs, gurmag anglers, baleful strixes, reality smashers and others! Swords to plowshares and terminus! Rhino is no where near the biggest kid on the block anymore and he doesn't generate value when he enters the battlefield against white removal (draining them for 3 isn't worth a card)

I know we play removal to deal with those opposing creatures but after a deed or path to exile or two, one of those commonly played creatures can come down and make our rhino look like a joke. And that's why I started cutting them and suiting it up the last one with sword of fire and ice or Batterskull, to dominate the creature decks and to turn all our other creatures into must answer threats against white removal decks.

My point is, the metagame has changed and every time I've tried the 4 rhino builds posted here (and I have, I really want to believe!) I end up getting stonewalled/overpowered or out card advantaged by these other midrange/controls decks.

Is no one else experiencing "my rhino is too small" syndrome? Am I alone? How do you fix it?

[Echelon]

Is no one else experiencing "my rhino is too small" syndrome? Am I alone? How do you fix it?

Overloading on PtEs (i.e. run the full set) is one of the things that help. They let you answer whatever is bigger than your Rhinos. Adding Diabolic Intent(s) and Eternal Witness expands the number of PtE at your disposal. Silly little things like Dryad Arbor allow you to trade your Rhino 1-on-1 with an Angler or Smasher. After that, you are the only of the 2 that runs GSZ so you have 7 (or 8/9 if Diabolic Intent is in the mix) Rhinos left to topdeck to their 3 (or in case of Angler probably 1/2).

Don't be afraid to turn your Siege Rhino into a removal spell.

[Jain_Mor]

So you're saying you don't experience your rhinos being too small to be productive/relevant? Or you are saying that you do, but you doing those (obvious) things mitigates it?

[Echelon]

The second thing. It's a problem, so I aim to solve it. Doing the obvious turns out to be a fine solution :laugh:.

All it takes is a few slots and a flexible playstyle. A good thing to do is to keep track of who's the beatdown. Very often it isn't until your opponent is in topdeck mode that you get to be the beatdown. As soon as you get your opponent into topdeck mode, you should prepare to turn the roles in a heartbeat. Misjudging ones role in a game is one of this decks biggest pitfalls.

[rubblekill]

The second thing. It's a problem, so I aim to solve it. Doing the obvious turns out to be a fine solution :laugh:.

All it takes is a few slots and a flexible playstyle. A good thing to do is to keep track of who's the beatdown. Very often it isn't until your opponent is in topdeck mode that you get to be the beatdown. As soon as you get your opponent into topdeck mode, you should prepare to turn the roles in a heartbeat. Misjudging ones role in a game is one of this decks biggest pitfalls.

Especially for a deck like ours which is full of control elements but has also creatures like rhinos and ooze that could incentivise a new player to always play the aggro role. I agree with everything you have said.

[Echelon]

Especially for a deck like ours which is full of control elements but has also creatures like rhinos and ooze that could incentivise a new player to always play the aggro role. I agree with everything you have said.

Spot on, my good sir!

[Ricardio]

I top 8'd the Milwaukee classic today with almighty rhino, I'll try to post a list/report tomorrow maybe.

Congratulations! I will admit you almost caused a crash when I saw you in the results as I was pulling into my driveway.

[Arianrhod]

You guys probably know already, but I'm going to come out the closet here. I'm currently a rhino none believer. There I said it.

And seeing you all hype on about our lord and savior makes me think I'm crazy or you all are.
But I've tried rhino, I really have! And that's why I think you're all delusional. Hear me out and then try and help me please.

When rhino was first spoiled, I was hyped. We ended up living in a treasure cruise blue red metagame filled with pyromancer tokens, delvers, true name nemises and lightning bolts. Rhino was pretty damn fantastic at stabilising and turning the corner in those days. Rhino was great, and I was sold.

Then cruise was banned and things changed. Now we live in a world of goyfs, gurmag anglers, baleful strixes, reality smashers and others! Swords to plowshares and terminus! Rhino is no where near the biggest kid on the block anymore and he doesn't generate value when he enters the battlefield against white removal (draining them for 3 isn't worth a card)

I know we play removal to deal with those opposing creatures but after a deed or path to exile or two, one of those commonly played creatures can come down and make our rhino look like a joke. And that's why I started cutting them and suiting it up the last one with sword of fire and ice or Batterskull, to dominate the creature decks and to turn all our other creatures into must answer threats against white removal decks.

My point is, the metagame has changed and every time I've tried the 4 rhino builds posted here (and I have, I really want to believe!) I end up getting stonewalled/overpowered or out card advantaged by these other midrange/controls decks.

Is no one else experiencing "my rhino is too small" syndrome? Am I alone? How do you fix it?

This is why I've been tinkering with Thune so much lately. Rather than play the ground-pounder war in a fight that we won't win without more spot removal than I personally am comfortable playing, just take to the skies with angels.

[sdematt]

This is why I've been tinkering with Thune so much lately. Rather than play the ground-pounder war in a fight that we won't win without more spot removal than I personally am comfortable playing, just take to the skies with angels.

There are times I feel Rhino himself doesnt get there, but the deck does. If youre in that kind of meta, running more Baneslayers or Equipment is just fine. But, the Helix itself isnt bad, either.

I think if youre okay running a more SFM based list or a Thune list, I dont think youre wrong. But, I also agree that this deck was nuts during Cruise, even if we werent at peak tuning.

[Ricardio]

You guys probably know already, but I'm going to come out the closet here. I'm currently a rhino none believer. There I said it.

And seeing you all hype on about our lord and savior makes me think I'm crazy or you all are.
But I've tried rhino, I really have! And that's why I think you're all delusional. Hear me out and then try and help me please.

When rhino was first spoiled, I was hyped. We ended up living in a treasure cruise blue red metagame filled with pyromancer tokens, delvers, true name nemises and lightning bolts. Rhino was pretty damn fantastic at stabilising and turning the corner in those days. Rhino was great, and I was sold.

Then cruise was banned and things changed. Now we live in a world of goyfs, gurmag anglers, baleful strixes, reality smashers and others! Swords to plowshares and terminus! Rhino is no where near the biggest kid on the block anymore and he doesn't generate value when he enters the battlefield against white removal (draining them for 3 isn't worth a card)

I know we play removal to deal with those opposing creatures but after a deed or path to exile or two, one of those commonly played creatures can come down and make our rhino look like a joke. And that's why I started cutting them and suiting it up the last one with sword of fire and ice or Batterskull, to dominate the creature decks and to turn all our other creatures into must answer threats against white removal decks.

My point is, the metagame has changed and every time I've tried the 4 rhino builds posted here (and I have, I really want to believe!) I end up getting stonewalled/overpowered or out card advantaged by these other midrange/controls decks.

Is no one else experiencing "my rhino is too small" syndrome? Am I alone? How do you fix it?


So you're saying you don't experience your rhinos being too small to be productive/relevant? Or you are saying that you do, but you doing those (obvious) things mitigates it?

I have not come across the same issues as you I appears but I can say that if you don't feel like rhino is good enough, you don't have to. Play what suits your playstyle and comfort level. I know you have been an advocate of SFM so maybe rhino is not where that deck wants to be. I wouldn't force rhino too hard if you aren't feeling it because feeling forced is awful and nic fit is all about comfort. I pay 3 path to deal with various things but 4 rhino and a sigarda aren't super race-able imho. I would say make changes that feel comfortable and test that.


This is why I've been tinkering with Thune so much lately. Rather than play the ground-pounder war in a fight that we won't win without more spot removal than I personally am comfortable playing, just take to the skies with angels.

not being gsz'd is a major turn off for me but I want to believe in the angels, I just wish they weren't 17 tix a piece albeit maybe some form of 4 baneslayers is where I should be. Lord knows its where I want to be. haha

[rubblekill]

Helix is still good though, and angler tombstalker etc are not cards that are played as a 4of so I wouldn't be scared of them that much. Path n. 3-4 or thoughtseize deal with that kind of cards; I prefer ts to gain % against combo and control.

Rhino is green, flyers are not. Without the gsz engine we are the angel deck without stompy elements or a worse non blue non Maverick stoneblade deck. And at that point we would have to play intent, a card that I dislike and I know I am the only one to think this, pretty much.

But as you all know this deck has never been set in stone in regards to the deck building choices , so if you feel that way more power to you all

[Warden]

Helix is still good though, and angler tombstalker etc are not cards that are played as a 4of so I wouldn't be scared of them that much. Path n. 3-4 or thoughtseize deal with that kind of cards; I prefer ts to gain % against combo and control.

Rhino is green, flyers are not. Without the gsz engine we are the angel deck without stompy elements or a worse non blue non Maverick stoneblade deck. And at that point we would have to play intent, a card that I dislike and I know I am the only one to think this, pretty much.

But as you all know this deck has never been set in stone in regards to the deck building choices , so if you feel that way more power to you all

Thank you. All of this is correct IMO (even if we can win with Rhino through it all, the odds of that happening depend upon the meta).

I think the most important feature of a finisher/attacker is evasion and reach (not spider reach...but bolt-you-to-the-face-GG reach). I go back and forth with Rhino. Ultimately he's incredibly strong 4. goddamn. mana. Pretty much meets the evasion and reach criteria. However, there are numerous experiences where lord rhino fails. Sometimes the deck does its thing and Rhino can't close games out. Am I being unfair towards Rhino? Probably. This situation is almost equivalent to how I view Vindicate's power-level for legacy (I'm alluding to why Vindicate, despite being amazing, still isn't "good enough" to go more mainstream in the format). Lord Rhino needs to be among the biggest things in the room for you to have a good day with him. As others note, Eldrazi laughs him. And more recently, I'm having Goyf problems (but Goyf dies to basically all removal we run....so I can mentally handle a 4+/5+ goyf). If the opponent can assemble a team of weenies to gang-block Rhino, we're also in trouble.

So if we don't run Rhino, what do we run? Planeswalkers are an option, but I won't delve into that concept. Another post perhaps. In terms of creatures, what I want doesn't exist beyond Sigarda. Green needs a playable flyer. The only issue with Sigarda is that she costs a fair amount of mana. In my experience, when Sigarda sticks I proceed to win more than 70% of the time (I HAVE lost games because she came out too late). Kev suggested spider-bro (pages back), but he will never go on the aggressive like Sigarda can. RG big things are also not mid-range either. That leaves us with white. White consistently makes strong fliers. From Avenger to Resto to Baneslayer, white has you covered in the air (Avenger to highlight power-to-cost ratio). Black is also strong in terms of playable flyers. Tombstalker, Abyssal, and even Nighthawk can finish games (Nighthawk to highlight power-to-cost ratio). But with any non-white aggro flyer, you run into "I can't Zenith for it" territory. I guess that's the risk you have to take.

*Alternatively, you could take what I'm saying as fuel for running SFM. As the equipment transforms any creature into a "finisher" with potential reach (pro-colors, added effects, CA). It's also hard to race equipment, should you get going. But the counter-argument to SFM is that it's...well...SFM. This leads me to the last point. Maybe we're all head-cases about "We could be doing so much more" for the mana. We're not happy if shit costs too much mana. Not happy if it costs too little. Nothing in midrange is good. LOL we can't have it all.

[Ganfar]

I think Punishing Nic Fit is a meta deck and the Meta is wrong for it. It is supposed to beat the creature decks, but it doesnt do that against Eldrazi. Not surprised that Brael got stomped, I had the same results. The deck either needs a complete revamp so that it beats Grixis and D&T while still going at least even against Miracles and Eldrazi. If that is impossible it should be put aside until the meta changes.

Miracles have a hard time to deal with P.Fire. D&T is hard if they play Mirran C., and he dies on P. Fire.

[rubblekill]

Thank you. All of this is correct IMO (even if we can win with Rhino through it all, the odds of that happening depend upon the meta).

I think the most important feature of a finisher/attacker is evasion and reach (not spider reach...but bolt-you-to-the-face-GG reach). I go back and forth with Rhino. Ultimately he's incredibly strong 4. goddamn. mana. Pretty much meets the evasion and reach criteria. However, there are numerous experiences where lord rhino fails. Sometimes the deck does its thing and Rhino can't close games out. Am I being unfair towards Rhino? Probably. This situation is almost equivalent to how I view Vindicate's power-level for legacy (I'm alluding to why Vindicate, despite being amazing, still isn't "good enough" to go more mainstream in the format). Lord Rhino needs to be among the biggest things in the room for you to have a good day with him. As others note, Eldrazi laughs him. And more recently, I'm having Goyf problems (but Goyf dies to basically all removal we run....so I can mentally handle a 4+/5+ goyf). If the opponent can assemble a team of weenies to gang-block Rhino, we're also in trouble.

So if we don't run Rhino, what do we run? Planeswalkers are an option, but I won't delve into that concept. Another post perhaps. In terms of creatures, what I want doesn't exist beyond Sigarda. Green needs a playable flyer. The only issue with Sigarda is that she costs a fair amount of mana. In my experience, when Sigarda sticks I proceed to win more than 70% of the time (I HAVE lost games because she came out too late). Kev suggested spider-bro (pages back), but he will never go on the aggressive like Sigarda can. RG big things are also not mid-range either. That leaves us with white. White consistently makes strong fliers. From Avenger to Resto to Baneslayer, white has you covered in the air (Avenger to highlight power-to-cost ratio). Black is also strong in terms of playable flyers. Tombstalker, Abyssal, and even Nighthawk can finish games (Nighthawk to highlight power-to-cost ratio). But with any non-white aggro flyer, you run into "I can't Zenith for it" territory. I guess that's the risk you have to take.

*Alternatively, you could take what I'm saying as fuel for running SFM. As the equipment transforms any creature into a "finisher" with potential reach (pro-colors, added effects, CA). It's also hard to race equipment, should you get going. But the counter-argument to SFM is that it's...well...SFM. This leads me to the last point. Maybe we're all head-cases about "We could be doing so much more" for the mana. We're not happy if shit costs too much mana. Not happy if it costs too little. Nothing in midrange is good. LOL we can't have it all.

It's not only a strong 4 mana guy, but I am always happy to draw it after the early game (so bar the triple rhino opener or hands that have low mana so you only want to draw lands, but these situations are random and apply to pretty much any deck beside lands?). If you find that 1 rhino can't do anything against an angler, what about 2 rhinos then? I'm fully aware that this last sentence sounds really really stupid, but I can say that countless times 2 rhinos alone have stalled the board long enough to survive/draw that last piece of removal/draw sigarda or meren-->win.
I feel that 4 is the magical number for our lord, because he really IS good in multiples in my experience, and not only for the helix effect.

@SFM: Suiting a rhino/sigarda with a sofi and even a sobam (my fav. sword) is an amazing feeling, but the problem with SFM comes in the deckbuilding imo. It is already hard as hell in deciding my final 76 with the normal version, I've established long ago that trying to make space for SFM and swords is an impossible task. Too many card I absolutely need to have in the deck, there is so little space for anything else.

[Tao]

Miracles have a hard time to deal with P.Fire. D&T is hard if they play Mirran C., and he dies on P. Fire.

Yeah I know, I mean the Eldrazi matchup needs to be improved significantly without affecting these other matchups too much. So, as an example, just adding 4 Diabolic Edicts to combat Eldrazi won't do it because they suck against Miracles.

[Arianrhod]

I mean, that's basically the theory behind my Thune list. Yes, the various angels aren't all Zenithable (Sigarda being the exception), and yes, that's a pretty big drawback. But if you run four of them (still props to Warden for pushing me into the full angel suite over two vestigal rhinos), you're GOING to draw at least 1, probably 2 per game...especially with Tops, Tracker, Painful Truths, etc. You can't bury your opponent in angels by just running back Zeniths three turns in a row, but really, do you need to?

The whole point of Thune is to live long enough to draw into and slam angels. That's one reason (along with just adding an interactive side to Zenith) that I'm pushing for the Recluse. One of two things will happen: they'll burn a removal spell on it and be extremely salty about it, or they'll stop attacking. Either way, we're happy. Remember: against 80% of the deck archetypes in any given room, we're favored in the long game. We're still ironing out the wrinkles with Miracles, obviously, but the goal is to be favored postboard there as well. The goal is to not die to stupid shit, and then play something that people can't deal with that closes the game effectively. Don't be afraid to use the draw step to your advantage -- Zenith is one of the best cards in the deck, absolutely, but once you fulfill a certain green core, you don't need to keep piling on additional green creatures or excluding other creatures just because they aren't green.

It's possible that 4 Baneslayers would be just fine (probable, even) -- I still like keeping the Thune combo around, though. The Spikes actually always overperform for me, and it lets me feel comfortable playing 3 Painful Truths.

[Brael]

@everyone/Brael in particular: I may have found the answer for SE Fit. Mirri's Guile, 3 of them (4 might be too much. Although, keeping in mind we aim to mirror the number of Brainstorms + Ponders any given deck runs that might call for Guile no. 4). To start the filtering process as quickly as we can and look for Top as quickly as possible. After we've found a Top, we do not have to care about what happens to our Guile anymore. Bear with me. To explain why this can be I'll dip into some more Systems Engineering by way of use cases.


I'm not so sure, I think it takes too many deck slots. In order to include these you need to give up manipulation elsewhere which in turn lowers your threats and worsens your ability to overload the opponents removal. Maybe as a SB option if there's a critical piece of interaction you need on turn 2 such as if you're against Storm.


For quick reference, we'd be talking about the following list, sorted by card type and CMC:
Creatures (14)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifacts (4):
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sorceries & instants (14):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments (6):
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Lands (21):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower


I think this is giving up too much CA in order to get more manipulation, and way too few threats, your above deck looks pretty weak to removal for example with only 11 real threats including GSZ.


Is no one else experiencing "my rhino is too small" syndrome? Am I alone? How do you fix it?

Not really, Rhino is really only too small against Angler and you can double block Angler while still going 1 for 1 with any creature plus Rhino. And we get more Rhinos than they get Anglers. Plus, I don't even mind trading 2 for 1 if I have to, the build I've been using lately has a lot of CA. I do feel like my guys are too small against Eldrazi though, and it doesn't help matters that they dodge Deed and Decay so I have much less removal.

[sdematt]

I'm not so sure, I think it takes too many deck slots. In order to include these you need to give up manipulation elsewhere which in turn lowers your threats and worsens your ability to overload the opponents removal. Maybe as a SB option if there's a critical piece of interaction you need on turn 2 such as if you're against Storm.



I think this is giving up too much CA in order to get more manipulation, and way too few threats, your above deck looks pretty weak to removal for example with only 11 real threats including GSZ.



Not really, Rhino is really only too small against Angler and you can double block Angler while still going 1 for 1 with any creature plus Rhino. And we get more Rhinos than they get Anglers. Plus, I don't even mind trading 2 for 1 if I have to, the build I've been using lately has a lot of CA. I do feel like my guys are too small against Eldrazi though, and it doesn't help matters that they dodge Deed and Decay so I have much less removal.

But I agree - facing down 5/6 Goyf with no removal can get awkward for us, yes. So, when they attack, just don't block. Attack on the backswing, you'll have more life than them ;)

[Brael]

So if we don't run Rhino, what do we run? Planeswalkers are an option, but I won't delve into that concept. Another post perhaps. In terms of creatures, what I want doesn't exist beyond Sigarda. Green needs a playable flyer. The only issue with Sigarda is that she costs a fair amount of mana. In my experience, when Sigarda sticks I proceed to win more than 70% of the time (I HAVE lost games because she came out too late). Kev suggested spider-bro (pages back), but he will never go on the aggressive like Sigarda can. RG big things are also not mid-range either. That leaves us with white. White consistently makes strong fliers. From Avenger to Resto to Baneslayer, white has you covered in the air (Avenger to highlight power-to-cost ratio). Black is also strong in terms of playable flyers. Tombstalker, Abyssal, and even Nighthawk can finish games (Nighthawk to highlight power-to-cost ratio). But with any non-white aggro flyer, you run into "I can't Zenith for it" territory. I guess that's the risk you have to take.


What about Sun Titan alongside a suite of 2 and 3 cmc CA/lifegain engines? You can't GSZ for it, but it's big and buries the opponent in advantage.

[Warden]

I mean, that's basically the theory behind my Thune list. Yes, the various angels aren't all Zenithable (Sigarda being the exception), and yes, that's a pretty big drawback. But if you run four of them (still props to Warden for pushing me into the full angel suite over two vestigal rhinos), you're GOING to draw at least 1, probably 2 per game...especially with Tops, Tracker, Painful Truths, etc. You can't bury your opponent in angels by just running back Zeniths three turns in a row, but really, do you need to?

The whole point of Thune is to live long enough to draw into and slam angels. That's one reason (along with just adding an interactive side to Zenith) that I'm pushing for the Recluse. One of two things will happen: they'll burn a removal spell on it and be extremely salty about it, or they'll stop attacking. Either way, we're happy. Remember: against 80% of the deck archetypes in any given room, we're favored in the long game. We're still ironing out the wrinkles with Miracles, obviously, but the goal is to be favored postboard there as well. The goal is to not die to stupid shit, and then play something that people can't deal with that closes the game effectively. Don't be afraid to use the draw step to your advantage -- Zenith is one of the best cards in the deck, absolutely, but once you fulfill a certain green core, you don't need to keep piling on additional green creatures or excluding other creatures just because they aren't green.

It's possible that 4 Baneslayers would be just fine (probable, even) -- I still like keeping the Thune combo around, though. The Spikes actually always overperform for me, and it lets me feel comfortable playing 3 Painful Truths.

Thanks for the shout out again. So much bromance here.
TBH the other page where you wrote out 4 different builds: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=947100&viewfull=1#post947100
....I still think Eldrazi-Fit (Spaghetti-Fit/Pastafarians) is the best one. Don't ask me why. I think Eldrazi are beyond OP.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder ---> better than wood elves, fetches wastes
1 Tireless Tracker ----> unsure here
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath --> tutor PrimeTime or Eldrazi
2 Primeval Titan
6 Eldrazi / PWer / Eldrazi land
/17

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Top
/7

4 Cabal Therapy
4 interaction a
3 interaction b
3 Deed
/14

[Arianrhod]

I think there is a tremendous amount of potential inherent in some kind of colorless build, mostly due to the raw strength of Thought-Knot Seer. The problem is unlocking that potential.

I played a 3-round local tonight, with the last Thune list I posted, except for the following changes: -1 Recluse (I don't have one yet), -1 P.Truths, +1 Sensei's Top, +1 Path to Exile.

The 3rd Top was a backtrack when I pulled out Sorin for the sideboard, since that card likely requires three Tops to be good enough.

R1 I beat Shardless 2-0, R2 I beat Twin 2-0, R3 I ID'd with Infect so we could go home early.

The 3rd Path was actually very good -- the split of 3 Path/2 Decay felt super strong. I always had a removal spell when I needed one, but I wasn't drowning in them. I did feel a little light on raw CA in topdeck situations without a Top, so I probably want to find a slot to put the 3rd Truths back in. I still think the Recluse is good enough, but am unsure of where I'm going to find the 2 slots for Recluse and 3rd P.Truths. Sigarda and Dromoka were worth their weight in gold tonight. I had the potential for a couple of blowout turns with Tireless Tracker, but my opponents always had a Force of Will for him. One game I was going to play Tracker, play Tower as land for turn, and crack Vet :(

Sideboard felt pretty great -- I was definitely glad to have the Slaughter Games back, and Carpet carried g2 vs Twin. Deck feels like it's very close to correct for this meta, just need to sort out the last ~3-4 slots between main and side and it'll be good to go, I think.

[michaellefevre42]

One thing on the Deadly Recluse - there is actually an elf that does the same thing, but the power and toughness are switched (2/1 vs. 1/2 on the recluse). Same CMC. Seems like a better beatdown creature if you are going to put deathtouch/reach creature in your deck.

Thornweald Archer

[Vestige]

Hello everyone,

Brand new to the Source forums, as well as to Nic Fit in general. I decided on the deck two weeks ago, threw everything together for SCG Milwaukee, and went 2-5 in the event with Rhino Fit - absolutely no playtesting. First off, this deck is fricken sweet, and I love and appreciate all of the work that everyone has put into it. The deck is literally the legacy pod deck, and pod is by and far my favorite deck that i've ever piloted; I feel like i'll be saying the same for this deck with enough experience under my belt. Second, I'd like to ask a few (Which could soon sprout into a lot) of questions regarding the deck and potentially my build in particular.

1. How do I beat Delver decks? Round two I played against RUG and while it was a close match, he ended up getting there. I was very comfortable in this matchup as I know the deck and what it does pretty well - fetched basics the first few turns with daze mana up for plays, then ramped into rhinos and thragtusk, which only got me there game two. Game one I was mega mana screwed, what can ya do, but game three really got me as I was desperate for a pernicious deed the whole time. Is there any other card I can bring in to shore up that matchup so i'm not relying on a deed and my renegade top deck'd abrupt decay to get me there? Round seven I played against grixis delver, which was absolutely awful because gurmag angler always beats rhino. I feel like I probably played it wrong by pathing his Young Pyro early in the game, but I felt like I didn't really have an option. This was another matchup where I felt like it was Deed or bust, and it ended up being bust after drawing / looking at 40 cards and not finding one of my four. In both of these matches however, I felt like Therapy didn't put in the work that i've been told it does. What are the best things to name in these matches, both early and later game assuming you're casting it blind?

2. after reading some of the last pages, I feel a bit of relief knowing that i'm not the only one who has Rhino-too-small syndrome. Just like, what can I do against Baleful strix or a flipped delver if I can't remove it? What about Gurmag or any of reanimator's dudes? I've been considering Dragonlord Dromokashake, but is it too expensive? Do I need to play STEve to get that far? That lifelink is pretty appealing, and might even get the tag over main deck baneslayer as it's zenithable.

3. How good is STEve anyway? I see that a lot of you really like him, but I haven't seen him out of any of the lists that have top 8'd recently, and that's the only basis that I currently have for what this deck is meant to look like.

4. Final question for now, what matchups do I bring in Recurring Nightmare for? Like, I get that the card is busted, but what is it actually good for?

Thanks so much for any feedback i'd get here. Really appreciate it. Once I start to figure things out i'll attempt to start to contribute a bit more, but for now i'll definitely be asking a bunch of questions. :laugh:

My decklist for those interested:

Creature (17)
1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Siege Rhino
1x Thragtusk
4x Veteran Explorer
Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Painful Truths
Artifact (2)
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Instant (7)
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Path to Exile
Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed
Land (21)
1x Bayou
5x Forest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Plains
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Sideboard (15)
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Garruk Relentless Flip
1x Golgari Charm
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Pithing Needle
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Rest in Peace
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Toxic Deluge

[Arianrhod]

One thing on the Deadly Recluse - there is actually an elf that does the same thing, but the power and toughness are switched (2/1 vs. 1/2 on the recluse). Same CMC. Seems like a better beatdown creature if you are going to put deathtouch/reach creature in your deck.

Thornweald Archer

Just a quick note on this, I actually chose Recluse over Thornweald intentionally. The extra point of toughness matters much more than the extra point of power, in my opinion -- that way it can't be pinged out of the way by Fire//Ice, Endbringer, etc.

[Bjorn The Jesus]

I'll start out by saying I got real lucky, or it was just karma for my poor attempt at modern the day before. I was on melira company, and paired up r1 and 2 against rg tron. I think that match-up is close to unwinnable. Being out of contention I dropped and tried to get into the legacy challenge. Didn't fire, but an 8man did, and I played my buddies shardless bug for that. Bad idea forsaking the rhino. Lost first round to knight of the reliquary and a bunch of wastelands. I was pretty down at this point and just watched the next few hours.

Enough about my Saturday failure though, Sunday morning came and I felt like it was time for redemption. I returned to Rhinotime for the day, with a few cards different than normal due to forgetting don't existed, whatever that's fine.

Round 1: Daniel on bug delver
I had been saying to my friend, "I hope all I play is delver today after the thrashing I received yesterday." Turn one underground sea into delver showed me that someone was on my side. I turn one therapy, hit brainstorm, turn 2 explorer, therapy, explorer, therapy, therapy. Rhino rhino rhino.
Game 2 I kept a questionable hand and a force on my explorer kind of got me.
I started to sweat it, had I gotten too cocky and was going to lose round 1? Turns out no, lots of rhinos, deeds, and rhinos later and I got the match slip. Opponent was none too happy losing to standard cards.
1-0

Round 2: Jeremy on Dredge
This was my favorite match of the day, opponent was super nice, we joked around a bit, everyone had fun. As we talked before we started, I thought he was on Oops or charbelcher, so I was not looking forward to it. He was on the play and turn one faithlessly looted 2 grave-trolls away so my fear of one combo turned into fear of another. Thankfully, I had a deathrite shaman, and then sacced an explorer to get rid of 3 bridges. Followed that up with a few rhinos and his couple of zombies didn't really do much.
Game 2 I kept a hand with shaman and ooze, don't remember what else, but he had a pretty fast start and got rid of both of those and started to hit me with some zombies. I sort of stabalized with a few rhinos, but his last dredge got him 2 narcomoebas and 3 bridges, as well as an elesh norn. He was able to dread return elesh norn, and then dread return the haste zealot, my rhinos tried their best, but on to game 3.
Game 3 was over pretty fast, I extracted his ichorids, and he forgot about trample and attacked with all but one zombie, which I abrupt decayed for lethal.
2-0

Round 3: Zach on Maverick
Game 1 he mulliganed to 5, and I had a bunch of rhinos and then Sigarda flew over for a bunch, it was pretty fast.
Game 2 he had a bunch of Mom's, a few huge knights, and I drew mostly explorers and lands. There may have been one rhino, but he just gave knights protection till I was dead.
Game 3 was a slug fest. Lot of knights for him, lots of decays/paths for me, At one point I think he had a knight, 2 moms, a stoneforge, and a library maybe. I drew a deed and it was pretty over.
3-0

Round 4: Jim Davis on Bug Delver
I was pretty nervous going into this one, he was the first opponent I knew of, and I know he is a very good player. Thankfully, rhinos and deeds don't really care about tarmogoyfs and delvers. Game 1 went just as planned, game 2 I kept a hand of therapy, therapy, gsz, gsz, land, land, explorer. Turn one therapy on force, turn two go off. Final turn, he is at 7, I have rhino and top in play and bunch of lands. He has 2 Goyfs, a flipped delver, and he had just played his final card in hand which was a Bob. I spin top at end of turn and see land, deed, rhino. After the turn he said to me, "Well that wasn't very much fun."
4-0

Round 5: Kyle on Eldrazi
I have never done this well at any sort of bigger tournament, so I was pretty stoked, if I won this, I could double draw into top 8. Game 1 I had a turn one vet, turn 2 tower into rhino, then another rhino, it was pretty quick.
Game 2 came down to a judge call at the end. I had a meren with 1 experience, a rhino in play, and a rhino, explorer, and deathrite in the graveyard. He had a tks, mimic, smasher, and was at pretty low life with a bunch of ancient tombs in play. End of turn I say "target deathrite with meren", he says okay pretty quick, but I change my mind after doing math realizing I could kill him if I get rhino to my hand. I say, "instead get rhino", judge called, says I have to take shaman, whatever thats fine I guess. He drew a smasher so it didn't matter.
Game 3, the decider: it gets pretty dicey, we are the last match going, I honestly don't remember what all happened, but I know he made a copy of a smasher at one point, when he probably should have made a thragtusk to gain a little life. My top came through with a rhino and a gsz on top, so i could attack and double rhino for the win. (The hoogster told me I played really well, so that was the highlight of my day)
5-0

Round 6: Caleb Scherer on Storm
Thank god for drawing, didn't have to play the only matchup I can not win.
5-0-1

Round 7: Matt on UR Delver
Also drew, but I would not have been against playing, I would assume it''s a pretty good matchup.

TOP 8 BOYS!!
Xander on Meathookz
Game one he had a lot of lords, but I did therapy 2 crystalline slivers out of his hand early, which ended up being good for my paths and stuff. Didn't end up mattering because those little things get out of hand fast.
Game two I had a pretty interactive hand, that also had some explorers and a top to see all the cards, I was able to stop most of his threats, got an elspeth in play that was able to pump up and keep blocking. A timely path on a galerider and I got to eat a sliver for free with my ooze, he built a little bit back up, but deed is a hell of a magic card, and then rhino came and got wings to win.
Game three I kept a pretty terrible hand of 4 lands, path, witness, therapy, looking back I definitely should have mulled. I'll blame it on tiredness, not looking forward to the 6 hour drive back home, and whatever else, it was dumb. He turn 1 needles tops, thats fine, I don't have one, then gets his first lord pathed. he then drops 2 mutavaults and a shroudsliver and attacks for awhile, I think i got a few explorers in there. I green sun'd for a sigarda at some point because he had a galerider to try to stop the bleeding, but a phantasmal image on my sigarda and there was nothing I could do. I ended the game with 11 lands in play, but hey, top 8 is pretty good for me.

DECKLIST:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

SIDEBOARD:
1 Engineered Plague (should have been anything else)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Never got to cast Sorin, and painful truths when I did cast felt as good as it seems it should. Sorry for getting a little verbose, but thanks for reading, and Praise the Rhinocerous.

[Echelon]

I think this is giving up too much CA in order to get more manipulation, and way too few threats, your above deck looks pretty weak to removal for example with only 11 real threats including GSZ.

It looks incredibly weak when compared to what we normally run, but this is more a Delver style approach to Nic Fit. A lot of manipulation and removal, few threats. I don't know about you, but when I look at the average anyDelver.dec list it just looks like weaksauce to me. Nevertheless anyDelver.dec gets the job done. At least we still have the means to answer their big stuff and end the game with Sigarda/Sorin. I think the major problem with this list is that none of us wants to play Delver Fit, we just want to slam Rhinos and call it a day.


Just a quick note on this, I actually chose Recluse over Thornweald intentionally. The extra point of toughness matters much more than the extra point of power, in my opinion -- that way it can't be pinged out of the way by Fire//Ice, Endbringer, etc.

And it can block pesky 1/x's all day and doesn't die to a 1/x itself.


...

1. How do I beat Delver decks? Round two I played against RUG and while it was a close match, he ended up getting there. I was very comfortable in this matchup as I know the deck and what it does pretty well - fetched basics the first few turns with daze mana up for plays, then ramped into rhinos and thragtusk, which only got me there game two. Game one I was mega mana screwed, what can ya do, but game three really got me as I was desperate for a pernicious deed the whole time. Is there any other card I can bring in to shore up that matchup so i'm not relying on a deed and my renegade top deck'd abrupt decay to get me there? Round seven I played against grixis delver, which was absolutely awful because gurmag angler always beats rhino. I feel like I probably played it wrong by pathing his Young Pyro early in the game, but I felt like I didn't really have an option. This was another matchup where I felt like it was Deed or bust, and it ended up being bust after drawing / looking at 40 cards and not finding one of my four. In both of these matches however, I felt like Therapy didn't put in the work that i've been told it does. What are the best things to name in these matches, both early and later game assuming you're casting it blind?

2. after reading some of the last pages, I feel a bit of relief knowing that i'm not the only one who has Rhino-too-small syndrome. Just like, what can I do against Baleful strix or a flipped delver if I can't remove it? What about Gurmag or any of reanimator's dudes? I've been considering Dragonlord Dromokashake, but is it too expensive? Do I need to play STEve to get that far? That lifelink is pretty appealing, and might even get the tag over main deck baneslayer as it's zenithable.

3. How good is STEve anyway? I see that a lot of you really like him, but I haven't seen him out of any of the lists that have top 8'd recently, and that's the only basis that I currently have for what this deck is meant to look like.

4. Final question for now, what matchups do I bring in Recurring Nightmare for? Like, I get that the card is busted, but what is it actually good for?\

Welcome! To answer your questions:
1. First off I understand why you got manascrewd. Your manabase only holds 15/12/11 initial B/G/W sources, where you want to have at least 14 each. If you don't, you're forced to fetch duals more often than you would want. This opens you up to Wasteland (and therefor Daze). Look around the forum for some more manabases and get a feel for those. A good manabase should allow you to fetch for basics 90% of the time, which is a big "fuck you" to Wasteland and b/c you have mana you can also play through Daze. That means you've just killed 8 of your opponents' cards without doing a thing. The Delver MU basically boils down to disrupt your opponent/resolve a Veteran Explorer, trade some cards, get your opponent into topdeck mode and smash face. Once you get the hang of it, anyDelver.dec is one of your best MUs. Oh, and you should get familiar with the playline "FyDFyP", better know as "Fuck you Daze, Fuck you Plow". Basically it's T1 Cabal Therapy, T2 Veteran Explorer, flashback Therapy so you have mana to cast Explorer through Daze and your opponent doesn't get the opportunity to StP your Explorer. After FyDFyP you usually get to call yourself Heisenberg for the rest of that game (as Bjorns report eloquently shows. I tend to name Brainstorm/FoW as well on blind Therapies vs. anyDelver. When I'm 100% sure it's Delver, I go for FoW as getting VetEx countered is one of the few things that can really hurt you in this MU).

2. Understand who's the beatdown. Use your removal conservatively. You don't have to kill every card on the field, turn your cards into problems your opponent needs to solve. Baleful Strix doesn't really do shit, so take your time to find an appropriate answer to it. It's not like it'll kill you anytime soon. Life also is a resource you can and should use. Your opponent flips a Delver? Kill it or try to answer with a threat of your own. GSZ for DRS or a Scavenging Ooze, mess with what your opponent is doing. Dragonlord Dromoka is a fine finisher, but recently we've started switching to Sorin, Grim Nemesis. It's a 6 CMC threat that is not answered by Terminus/StP.

3. I'm leaving that one to Arianrhod.

4. Long, grindy matches where your opponent doesn't really mess with your graveyard. Meren makes Nightmare a bit obsolete though (although this might mostly be my opinion).

@Bjorn: Congrats on the result man!

[sdematt]

Might do a video primer on the deck since it's picking up steam...but after finals. May 21st...freedom!

[Echelon]

Maybe we should also update the primer to include our new toys (Meren, Tracker, Big Sorin). Add some pointers on manabases, highlight the importance of FyDFyP, fetching basics etc. Also some pointers on playstyle. Revisit who's the beatdown.

Good luck on your finals!

[madlameguy]

DECKLIST:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

SIDEBOARD:
1 Engineered Plague (should have been anything else)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Never got to cast Sorin, and painful truths when I did cast felt as good as it seems it should. Sorry for getting a little verbose, but thanks for reading, and Praise the Rhinocerous.

How did two Abrupt Decay work out? I rarely leave home with fewer than four, so I was curious about this decision.

[Ganfar]

Yeah I know, I mean the Eldrazi matchup needs to be improved significantly without affecting these other matchups too much. So, as an example, just adding 4 Diabolic Edicts to combat Eldrazi won't do it because they suck against Miracles.

My meta is diffrent in my LGS as well. There are like one player on eldrazi. I don't think sweden have a lot eldrazi player either.

[sdematt]

Tao isn't wrong.

The only card that I feel overlaps is Ruination (and not From the Ashes). Reasoning here is as follows.

The two decks are entirely different. Both are essentially prison/control decks. Eldrazi is a tad more aggro, but follow me here. Cards like Choke, Decay, Needle, etc. are great against Miracles because of their design - getting rid of noncreature permanents is difficult, and you can grind them out in the long game.

The problem with Eldrazi is that they go bigger, so you don't have time. Cards like Decay and stuff are useless. Disruption is better here since they can't fix their draws as easily, whereas Miracles can.

The only thing they share is common is a susceptible manabase, and I'll explain. Eldrazi obviously has a manabase waiting to die to Blood Moon. Since most of us aren't that deep in red to support Moon, Ruination is a great choice to nut them out. Tsunami, being good against Miracles, won't help here. Miracles has a great manabase full of basics. But, a Miracles player, in the Nic Fit matchup, has no reason to play around Wasteland, and in fact, to get possible future benefits out of Explorer, it might even be better to not fetch the first few basics. This is where Ruination can obviously put them behind.

Now, Armageddon obviously deals with both situations, basics or not. The problem is we also really hate Armageddon. Even though we have dorks, I'm still not excited to have to play it. I think Taiga into Ruination, losing the Taiga and possibly another land seems fine.

I feel like there's few cards that overlap, here. Thoughts?

[TTX]

I agree, because Lands can be a serious problem sometimes. Busting a ruination sets them way back too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brael]

Now, Armageddon obviously deals with both situations, basics or not. The problem is we also really hate Armageddon. Even though we have dorks, I'm still not excited to have to play it. I think Taiga into Ruination, losing the Taiga and possibly another land seems fine.

I feel like there's few cards that overlap, here. Thoughts?

How about Beast Within? We don't really care about 3/3's in the first place, and Terminus sweeps them away anyways. It takes out any permanent so it can hit a Reality Smasher or TKS just as easily as it can take out an Eye of Ugin or Counterbalance or even Jace and unlike Vindicate it's instant.

[Ricardio]

How about Beast Within? We don't really care about 3/3's in the first place, and Terminus sweeps them away anyways. It takes out any permanent so it can hit a Reality Smasher or TKS just as easily as it can take out an Eye of Ugin or Counterbalance or even Jace and unlike Vindicate it's instant.

What about stasis snare? That deals with emrakul and smasher (no discard trigger)

[Brael]

What about stasis snare? That deals with emrakul and smasher (no discard trigger)

What's the advantage to Stasis Snare over any other exile creature removal outside of Emrakul and Smasher? Something that hits most/all permanents has a lot more versatility to it.

[Ricardio]

What's the advantage to Stasis Snare over any other exile creature removal outside of Emrakul and Smasher? Something that hits most/all permanents has a lot more versatility to it.

I am making a suggestion to follow yours. I would never play BW before vindicate in a Junk colored deck and I did not understand the merit of running a card this is worse. I think in a junk fit deck, stasis snare would be better at getting things done compared to BW albeit Vindicate outclasses both.

[Brael]

It looks incredibly weak when compared to what we normally run, but this is more a Delver style approach to Nic Fit. A lot of manipulation and removal, few threats. I don't know about you, but when I look at the average anyDelver.dec list it just looks like weaksauce to me. Nevertheless anyDelver.dec gets the job done. At least we still have the means to answer their big stuff and end the game with Sigarda/Sorin. I think the major problem with this list is that none of us wants to play Delver Fit, we just want to slam Rhinos and call it a day.

What allows Delver to get the job done is that it has a very low curve with several undercost creatures backed by free counterspells. Their deck runs on very few resources. Ours is different because it needs a lot of resources. I think you're misevaluating Guile here. It's not quite a Ponder because Ponder allows for stacking or shuffling, and it replaces itself in your hand. How many times do you need to repeat stacking your top 3 in order to make up for that? I would say enough times that you're able to avoid two bad draws (once for the card to break even, once to get some value off it). So you're looking probably a 3 turn return on the card. The key difference between Guile and Top is that Top can always be cashed in for a card so it doesn't take as long to break even, especially if you draw multiples.

[Brael]

I am making a suggestion to follow yours. I would never play BW before vindicate in a Junk colored deck and I did not understand the merit of running a card this is worse. I think in a junk fit deck, stasis snare would be better at getting things done compared to BW albeit Vindicate outclasses both.

The main advantage I see is that it's an instant. That allows for better timing, it could be that Vindicate is still better though. The main problems I see with Stasis Snare are that it's WW so it's tough to cast early, and it only hits creatures. If we're talking about cards that are good against Eldrazi and Miracles we need cards that are capable of hitting anything or nearly anything.

[Ricardio]

What allows Delver to get the job done is that it has a very low curve with several undercost creatures backed by free counterspells. Their deck runs on very few resources. Ours is different because it needs a lot of resources. I think you're misevaluating Guile here. It's not quite a Ponder because Ponder allows for stacking or shuffling, and it replaces itself in your hand. How many times do you need to repeat stacking your top 3 in order to make up for that? I would say enough times that you're able to avoid two bad draws (once for the card to break even, once to get some value off it). So you're looking probably a 3 turn return on the card. The key difference between Guile and Top is that Top can always be cashed in for a card so it doesn't take as long to break even, especially if you draw multiples.

I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).


The main advantage I see is that it's an instant. That allows for better timing, it could be that Vindicate is still better though. The main problems I see with Stasis Snare are that it's WW so it's tough to cast early, and it only hits creatures. If we're talking about cards that are good against Eldrazi and Miracles we need cards that are capable of hitting anything or nearly anything.

You are very astute. I agree.

[sdematt]

I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).



You are very astute. I agree.

TTX also brings up a good point, that the Lands matchup certainly isn't favourable. Ruination also handles that one.

[Echelon]

What allows Delver to get the job done is that it has a very low curve with several undercost creatures backed by free counterspells. Their deck runs on very few resources. Ours is different because it needs a lot of resources. I think you're misevaluating Guile here. It's not quite a Ponder because Ponder allows for stacking or shuffling, and it replaces itself in your hand. How many times do you need to repeat stacking your top 3 in order to make up for that? I would say enough times that you're able to avoid two bad draws (once for the card to break even, once to get some value off it). So you're looking probably a 3 turn return on the card. The key difference between Guile and Top is that Top can always be cashed in for a card so it doesn't take as long to break even, especially if you draw multiples.


I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).

The question never was which of the two is better. Top easily wins that, no need to discuss. The point of having both Guiles and Tops on board was to approach the consistency the blue cantrip shell gives decks as much as possible, nothing more. Yes, Delver does undercosted creatures and free counters. So what? Shardless BUG uses the shell to do CA creatures and some free counters, TES/ANT/Reanimator/Tin Fins uses the shell to blow people out of the water, Aluren/Food Chain uses it to assemble CA & combo. The point is that all of these decks carry a relatively low number of real threats and all manage to get by.

With Guile + Top as Brainstorm + Ponder analog, the ramp we play and with GSZ to top it off we have the tools to be as consistent as anything playing the blue cantrip shell while having access to all the toys we know and love. I guess I went wrong when I compared it to anyDelver.dec, since that wasn't the sentiment I was trying to convey.

[Tao]

Playing Mirri's Guile on top of 4 SDTs is terrible. These cards don't cantrip and 3-4 is the most a deck can use. "Play Guile, Upkeep see Top, 2nd Guile, Bayou", that is what you are in for. Also the entire concept of trying to mimick any setup (in this case Ponder / Brainstorm) with inferior cards is stupid.

[Echelon]

Playing Mirri's Guile on top of 4 SDTs is terrible. These cards don't cantrip and 3-4 is the most a deck can use. "Play Guile, Upkeep see Top, 2nd Guile, Bayou", that is what you are in for. Also the entire concept of trying to mimick any setup (in this case Ponder / Brainstorm) with inferior cards is stupid.

Thank you for your contribution. It was very helpful.

Would you be so kind as to explain how you came to your conclusion? I thought we had moved past the point of just calling eachothers ideas stupid without any rhyme or reason. Please try to use the terms "consistency" and "opportunity cost", since consistency is the subject of this discussion and opportunity cost is what's involved when trying these constructions. Don't forget to take into consideration the 16-18 shuffling effects we run and how we can adjust our playstyle accordingly.

Disagreeing with an idea is perfectly fine, but put some more effort into it than just calling it stupid.

[Ganfar]

I think Oath of Nissa is just better with top then guile. You will get 3 freash new cards and cantripde. Oath is the green ponder.

[Echelon]

It also tucks away the Top we aim to find more consistently, so it doesn't help us there.

[rubblekill]

I do even agree with Tao, but even before that though process my main concern would be how to play a 1 mana permanent (that can't be put on top of our deck) with deed, which in my opinion is one of the best cards in the deck. Before Echelon gets triggered, this is an honest concern I am not trolling. Top and truths/scrying are not enough? We have not space for fluff in the deck, when I have a top in play all I want to draw is gas, not an enchantment that will eventually die to my own deed.

[Echelon]

I know you're not trolling :smile:, and to be honest I'm not entirely sure on the idea myself. I just want to give it a fair go.

I adressed the various cases for Guile 2 pages back and have considered Deed. What I arrived at is that if you consider Guile an almost-Ponder and if Ponder as a 1-shot thing is a valid Legacy card, then as long as you manage to use Guile 1/2 times before blowing up Deed, you've essentially used it as a valid Legacy card and therefor should be fine with blowing it up (since you don't mind Ponder going to your graveyard).

Now consider that Guile preferably comes down T1, you probably get to trigger it twice (upkeep of turns 2 and 3) before you cast Deed and probably 3 times (upkeep of turn 4) before the first time you blow up a Deed.

Is that something I'd want to invest a mana and a card in? Maybe. It does have some awesome synergy with fetchlands (or a small GSZ) in the meantime (that might actually help you find the Deed that blows Guile up eventually).

It might also be a call to switch from Deed to Toxic Deluge, or to more spotremoval or beefy creatures. Deed is a great card, but it's not one we must play.

[Jain_Mor]

It also tucks away the Top we aim to find more consistently, so it doesn't help us there.

This is a logical fallacy right? You can say it doesn't find you tops, but you can't say it makes finding tops harder because it ships them to the bottom. You have more chance of top not being in the top 3 cards of your deck than being in them, so if anything it digs you closer to your tops if you want to think about it like that (which I wouldn't)

It's similar to the problems new players have with self milling.

Also guile not replacing itself is a reaallllyyy big deal. Drawing or opening with multiples is a nightmare. I guess these are reasons I won't be spending time testing it. But if you take the time to do so and come back with positive results then I'd be more inclined too :)