[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit [Archive] - Page 22

sdematt

05-04-2016, 03:16 AM

I know you're not trolling :smile:, and to be honest I'm not entirely sure on the idea myself. I just want to give it a fair go.

I adressed the various cases for Guile 2 pages back and have considered Deed. What I arrived at is that if you consider Guile an almost-Ponder and if Ponder as a 1-shot thing is a valid Legacy card, then as long as you manage to use Guile 1/2 times before blowing up Deed, you've essentially used it as a valid Legacy card and therefor should be fine with blowing it up (since you don't mind Ponder going to your graveyard).

Now consider that Guile preferably comes down T1, you probably get to trigger it twice (upkeep of turns 2 and 3) before you cast Deed and probably 3 times (upkeep of turn 4) before the first time you blow up a Deed.

Is that something I'd want to invest a mana and a card in? Maybe. It does have some awesome synergy with fetchlands (or a small GSZ) in the meantime (that might actually help you find the Deed that blows Guile up eventually).

It might also be a call to switch from Deed to Toxic Deluge, or to more spotremoval or beefy creatures. Deed is a great card, but it's not one we must play.

This again comes down to card selection and card draw. Top provides selection and limited draw, Guile only provides selection. Truths and Scrying provide strictly draw.

Top, because it can do both and dodge Deed, is superior to Guile, even if you consider the mana investment. Guile is only somewhat playable if you're Enchantress, or have nothing else. If you're concerned about it being a mana sink, Sylvan is, hand to God, the fucking tits. I would play more, but no room. Even with the Deed possibility, it's worth it. Truths is also excellent at getting back into the mid-gain after fighting through counters or discard, or just to pull ahead.

My ideal package is: 3 Top, 2 Sylvan, 3 Truths, 1 Scrying. Overkill? Sure, but with a 60 card limitation, there's no way this fits, so I'm content with 3 Top, 1 Sylvan, 2-3 Truths.I really do feel like 3 Top/3 Truths/1 Sylvan has a good mix of what you need, without nothing you don't.

Echelon

05-04-2016, 03:25 AM

Also guile not replacing itself is a reaallllyyy big deal. Drawing or opening with multiples is a nightmare. I guess these are reasons I won't be spending time testing it. But if you take the time to do so and come back with positive results then I'd be more inclined too :)

Well, if you have several weeks to wait for it I might be able to. Next time I get to play I'll make sure to proxy this mess up. Guile is the speediest card of the entire bunch. There might be some merit in that.

Oh, on Oath of Nissa - I think we can agree it will never give you a Top, right? It simply can't. So as a tool specifically to find/get Top, it's useless.

My ideal package is: 3 Top, 2 Sylvan, 3 Truths, 1 Scrying. Overkill? Sure, but with a 60 card limitation, there's no way this fits, so I'm content with 3 Top, 1 Sylvan, 2-3 Truths.I really do feel like 3 Top/3 Truths/1 Sylvan has a good mix of what you need, without nothing you don't.

You sir have a big package. I'm going to go have some fun with that, brew up a list that incorporates it in its entirety together with some means to (re)gain a good amount of life.

sdematt

05-04-2016, 03:28 AM

Rhinos, Spikes, and Angels, oh my?

Currently in hour 7 of 9 of studying. It's 12:30 AM.

-Matt

Echelon

05-04-2016, 03:32 AM

Rhinos, Spikes, and Angels, oh my?

Currently in hour 7 of 9 of studying. It's 12:30 AM.

-Matt

Currently enjoying a poop?

Jain_Mor

05-04-2016, 03:36 AM

IF you wanted to match, or even best, blue style consistency (though you will never be able to unmulligan without the extremely skill intensive foundation of the legacy format (I hope you can feel the seething sarcasm) that is brainstorm) then I would start with 4 Oath, 3-4 top, 3-4 Traverse the Uvenwald and 4Gsun (or no Gsun I don't know).

Since oath helps you hit delirium and you can add planeswalkers to your deck and creatures like shriekmaw to supplement removal spells to tide you over till your sweepers deluge/deed fix everything for you and your walkers/rhinos can finish the game.

Echelon

05-04-2016, 03:39 AM

IF you wanted to match, or even best, blue style consistency (though you will never be able to unmulligan without the extremely skill intensive foundation of the legacy format (I hope you can feel the seething sarcasm) that is brainstorm) then I would start with 4 Oath, 3-4 top, 3-4 Traverse the Uvenwald and 4Gsun (or no Gsun I don't know). Since oath helps you hit delirium and you can add planeswalkers to your deck and creatures like shriekmaw to supplement removal spells to ride you over till your sweepers deluge/deed fix everything for you and your walkers/rhinos can finish the game.

You crazy, beautiful person. I think you just earned Bobmans' spot as resident evil genius.

Tao

05-04-2016, 03:44 AM

The problem with Guile is that

1. it is worse than Top: Compared to SDT a) it dies to Deed, b) an extra copy in your starting hand is a straight mulligan and c) if you topdeck it you have to wait for a full turn to use it.
2. it gets worse if you already play Top: that is because the stuff you see in the top3 cards gets worse, you Top into Guile or Guile into Top, and you never want a second copy of this effect. Ponder and Brainstorm do not have this problem because they replace themselves.

About Punishing Nic Fit, the first card that I think should be maxed out on is Liliana. Great against Miracles, and the Edict is good against Eldrazi. The card I would cut is Abrupt Decay. It is bad against all problem matchups (aggressive Eldrazi, big Eldrazi and everything that tries to cheat Marit Lage or Griselbrand into play) and against Miracles we can try to rely on Deed or Rec Sage. I would try to push the own game plan more with something like 4 Lili, 4 Fire, 4 Deed, 4 Top, 3-4 Huntmaster.

Echelon

05-04-2016, 04:04 AM

1. it is worse than Top: Compared to SDT a) it dies to Deed, b) an extra copy in your starting hand is a straight mulligan and c) if you topdeck it you have to wait for a full turn to use it.
2. it gets worse if you already play Top: that is because the stuff you see in the top3 cards gets worse, you Top into Guile or Guile into Top, and you never want a second copy of this effect. Ponder and Brainstorm do not have this problem because they replace themselves.

Thank you for putting some effort into this my good sir, I really appreciate it.

I'm not sure if you'd never want a second copy of that effect. Putting GSZ/fetchland on top with the Guile trigger and casting/cracking it before activating Top (entertaining the possibility one might run into a second shuffle effect) has some obvious value.

Also, it's exactly because you run into multiples that you should have less problems with blowing one up with a Deed - you just drop your second copy after blowing up Deed.

On the general aversion of Deed blowing up ones own stuff: To win a battle one has to accept that there will be casualties. This should never, ever be an argument not to play a card. What gets me most is the sheer randomness with which the argument gets used. Sylvan Safekeeper? No problem. Deathrite Shaman? But Deed!

I'll just have to proxy it up when I get the chance :smile:.

rubblekill

05-04-2016, 04:07 AM

Thank you for putting some effort into this my good sir, I really appreciate it.

I'm not sure if you'd never want a second copy of that effect. Putting GSZ/fetchland on top with the Guile trigger and casting/cracking it before activating Top (entertaining the possibility one might run into a second shuffle effect) has some obvious value.

Also, it's exactly because you run into multiples you should have less problems with blowing one up with a Deed - you just drop your second copy after blowing up Deed.

I'll just have to proxy it up when I get the chance :smile:.

But isn't that a straight raw card disadvantage? That's bad right?

Echelon

05-04-2016, 04:12 AM

But isn't that a straight raw card disadvantage? That's bad right?

You are 100% right, it is. That's one of the reasons why I'm still not sure on the idea.

Jain_Mor

05-04-2016, 04:16 AM

Echelon

05-04-2016, 04:18 AM

Oath and Traverse can both fetch Shriekmaw, it slow get delirium and it's fantastic manasink/card advantage card that hits nearly all creatures (especially eldrazi) except DRS, angler, strix and TNN (though it does attack past it!) and it synergises like crazy with Meren...

I'm Gnna brew a GBx list that abuses these cards

Someone's totally making my day...

Try to add in a Fierce Empath and Karador, Ghost Chieftain (Karador works with Shriekmaw too). Quite possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder and Qasali Pridemage. A couple of Phyrexian Towers, Meren, Siege Rhinos, Dryad Arbor, Eternal Witness to loop stuff like PtE/AD/Pernicious Deed/Painful Truths.

In the meantime I'll try and see if I can fit matts' package in a list.

Edit: The matt package list:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
1 Skeletal Scrying

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

Jain_Mor

05-04-2016, 06:00 AM

Someone's totally making my day...

Try to add in a Fierce Empath and Karador, Ghost Chieftain (Karador works with Shriekmaw too). Quite possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder and Qasali Pridemage. A couple of Phyrexian Towers, Meren, Siege Rhinos, Dryad Arbor, Eternal Witness to loop stuff like PtE/AD/Pernicious Deed/Painful Truths.

Lol cannot make it fit at all. 4 Oath 4 Traverse 4 GSun 4 Therapy is already 16 cards. Shriekmaw and Qasali can take place of Path/Decay, but you still want deed, and then thats like 18-20 non creature, non land, non planeswalker cards which gives you a 3% chance of your oaths missing... no good. If only it fetched enchantments instead of, or as well as planeswalkers, how different this world would be.

So you could do something like this, but it looks baaaaad and runs no instants or deeds..

4 Oath
4 Traverse
4 Gsun
4 Therapy

4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE
1 Qasali
4 Shriekmaw
1 Tracker
1 Ewit
1 Meren
2 Rhino
1 Sigarda

2 Liliana
1 Garruk
1 Elspeth
1 Ob Nixilis
1 Vraska
1 Sorin

and 20 lands. but yeeaaa looks awful.

Echelon

05-04-2016, 06:08 AM

OMG what an abomination, lol.

Kudos for trying though.

Warden

05-04-2016, 08:03 AM

This again comes down to card selection and card draw. Top provides selection and limited draw, Guile only provides selection. Truths and Scrying provide strictly draw.

Top, because it can do both and dodge Deed, is superior to Guile, even if you consider the mana investment. Guile is only somewhat playable if you're Enchantress, or have nothing else. If you're concerned about it being a mana sink, Sylvan is, hand to God, the fucking tits. I would play more, but no room. Even with the Deed possibility, it's worth it. Truths is also excellent at getting back into the mid-gain after fighting through counters or discard, or just to pull ahead.

My ideal package is: 3 Top, 2 Sylvan, 3 Truths, 1 Scrying. Overkill? Sure, but with a 60 card limitation, there's no way this fits, so I'm content with 3 Top, 1 Sylvan, 2-3 Truths.I really do feel like 3 Top/3 Truths/1 Sylvan has a good mix of what you need, without nothing you don't.

This is actually interesting to read. No sarcasm. I am in the "we can do better than guile" camp. Matt's justification makes more sense than anything I'd write. However, I'm in a different mentality about the ideal draw setup. I like the concept of Oath people are talking about and I'll be the odd man out: I like the concept of Gitaxian Probe (helps you with information, assists Therapy/TS, cantrips, is never a dead draw). Space is of course the ultimate hurdle to surpass.

I'd love to fool around with a list where this was the consistency package: (4 GSZ), 4 Gitaxian Probe, 2-3 top, 2 truth. Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies. I'd consider supplementing probe with 1-2 maindeck thought seize or going colorless for Thought Knot Seer. There's something in the "lets shred hands" department that works so well for Nic Fit. The last time I mentioned G-Probe someone commented about how it makes therapy better. I'd like to up my therapy/discard game while simultaneously cantripping and smoothing out variance. Probe isn't going to suddenly take away clunky hands. Not am I implying this. However, there is a lot of untapped potential in abusing the information it gives. A majority of the time, we have life to spare. And I play so much stronger if/when I have hand-knowledge. Idk how to make it all fit. Because space is an issue for everyone's list.

Echelon

05-04-2016, 08:11 AM

Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies.

I don't get it, please do explain.

On Gitaxian Probe - yes, it makes Therapy better, but it also opens you up to throwing away 2 life for nothing and can be a dead card in the late game when low on life, especially when you also run both Truths and Thoughtseizes.

I've considered it before, but haven't tested it yet.

Warden

05-04-2016, 08:50 AM

@Echelon: Good point about lifeloss. But that may be the risk worth taking. The explanation you're looking for btw (below)

...If you're concerned about it being a mana sink, Sylvan is, hand to God, the fucking tits. I would play more, but no room...

Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies.

Echelon

05-04-2016, 09:11 AM

Tits.

Ricardio

05-04-2016, 09:59 AM

rubblekill

05-04-2016, 10:39 AM

finished 2-3 in a league, definitely depressing.

I beat eldrazi and bug delver. lost to Sneak n Show(4 mentor in sb), Burn and Red Goblins.

SnS: had t2 snt on the play for griselbrand and I couldn't find karakas or removal. g2 he had me dead on board but accidentally activated griselbrand at 7 life. g3 I love to the third mentor.

Burn: he opened with 2 lands and only drew spells both games, also kept in PoP like a baddie.

Red Goblins: Both games he had t1 vial and drew gas every draw step while I flooded out both times and didn't see a single deed.

Feels bad when your opponents run hot, over you.

Sb feels like 15 sb for combo is too many. I will reevaluate where I need to be and go from there.

Oh man I understand the depression, that loss vs burn feels bad I'm sure about it. Heck we are the rhino x4.deck.
The goblin mu in my experience only depends on how many ring leaders they manage to draw. Deed and rhino devastate them otherwise.

Those 2 mu are winnable, you only got unlucky, it happens! (I bet those SotL were bad right?)

Ricardio

05-04-2016, 10:44 AM

Oh man I understand the depression, that loss vs burn feels bad I'm sure about it. Heck we are the rhino x4.deck.
The goblin mu in my experience only depends on how many ring leaders they manage to draw. Deed and rhino devastate them otherwise.

Those 2 mu are winnable, you only got unlucky, it happens! (I bet those SotL were bad right?)

goblins just kept drawing matrons off the top and the player agreed they were insane draws. He got to get a krenko and make like 8 tokens and then the following turn ripped the 4th matron to get a chieftain and swing for like 30

SotL were just very underwhelming. They are a nuisance but they don't stop your opp from doing a ton, they can still just kill you whereas canonist makes them answer her.

Warden

05-04-2016, 12:14 PM

goblins just kept drawing matrons off the top and the player agreed they were insane draws. He got to get a krenko and make like 8 tokens and then the following turn ripped the 4th matron to get a chieftain and swing for like 30

SotL were just very underwhelming. They are a nuisance but they don't stop your opp from doing a ton, they can still just kill you whereas canonist makes them answer her.

For combo, you need the girls (no, not another chesticle reference): Canonist, Thalia, C. Priest. Years of experience point to them doing enough disruption when paired with matchup specific options like TS, Duress, Teeg, white Leyline, Surgical, Needle, Revoker. Canonist remains my #1 option because limiting combo decks to 1 spell per turn is backbreaking. Thalia is the second strongest, but I've lost games with her on the table. Sometimes that Thalia tax isn't enough (especially since we do not run Thalia-Wasteland as a dedicated line of play). Priest is more for sneak/show, dredge, and reanimator.

TL; DR: use female hatebears backed by 1-2 anti-combo spells to beat combo.

Tao

05-04-2016, 12:44 PM

I have a lot of experience with the Goblin matchup. The Nr. 1 key card is Cabal Therapy. Snack their Matrons and Ringleaders. Deed is also very important of course.

Explorer is really dangerous without Therapy because Goblins can use the Mana very well.

Brael

05-04-2016, 01:22 PM

Oath and Traverse can both fetch Shriekmaw, it helps get delirium and it's fantastic manasink/card advantage card that hits nearly all creatures (especially eldrazi) except DRS, angler, strix and TNN (though it does attack past it!) and it synergises like crazy with Meren...

I'm Gnna brew a GBx list that abuses these cards

In Modern I've been playing RUG Delver lately using Traverse. It's pretty slow to turn on but the card is very good if you can enable it fast enough.

Edit: More thoughts
GBw is still probably the way to go with Traverse because you can use Tidehollow Sculler, it gives information for Therapy (important since you can't flashback it as much) and it's two types when it dies. Courser is also pretty good alongside Deed. The big problem would be getting instants.

On the subject of Probe, why not just use Inquisition of Kozilek instead? Discard is better than card draw since it helps against combo, it doesn't cost 2 life, and it still gives information. The problem is in finding room, in order to add discard you either have to remove the CA engine or the finishers.

Warden

05-04-2016, 03:50 PM

Brael

05-04-2016, 04:25 PM

The logic is that Probe cantrips and potentially costs 0 mana, leading to very solid lines of play (as well as the home-run opener of being on the play -> probe -> therapy). Any other type of discard is always going to be static discard throughout the game, which depreciates in value over the course of the game. Topdeck probe is at worst "2 life: get the next card", but IoK or another discard spell sucks.
Again, I'm not sure how to fit it all in. Gitaxian is a card that effectively thins your list to 56 cards.

I get the logic and the appeal, I just don't think it works here. Probe isn't a card we want because we want cards that do things. Delver doesn't even run Probe just because of the cantrip, they run it because it's a free spell to flip Delver, there are several cantrips they avoid because they aren't instants and sorceries.

I do disagree with the 56 card logic too, it's more like you're getting 1 more card drawn by turn 4. So instead of going 10 cards deep out of 60 cards you're going 11 deep. This has a bigger effect earlier in the game but a lesser effect later. Seeing 11 vs 10 is huge but seeing 26 instead of 24 is much less valuable so in a sense cantripping also loses value as the game goes long, and our deck goes long. That's why we need recurring advantage so much, we're not fast enough to take advantage of 1 shot effects.

Whether it's Thoughtseize or IoK or Probe though I don't know where the room would come from. I don't know about you, but I'm really enjoying my 20 creature list and would ideally like to run even more but there's a hard limit to creatures in this deck. Between 4 Top/GSZ/Therapy and 21 lands there's a theoretical maximum of 25 creatures and that's only if you give up all your good removal.

Actually, on the creature count argument I want to touch on Oath of Nissa. It needs 37 hits, with 21 lands that means you need a minimum of 16 creatures/pw's to consider it, and that's for 95% accuracy. If you want better, and if you want to hit business rather than lands you need to run more.

Edit: Has anyone ever actually tried Tidehollow Sculler? I realize it's not green but it's a form of discard (just as tutorable as a Thoughtseize really), it has power, and it gives us knowledge on our opponents hand. It might be easier to find room for a 2/2 than for a spell. For example I've been finding QPM to be my 61st lately, maybe cutting that could work.

Ricardio

05-04-2016, 05:33 PM

In Modern I've been playing RUG Delver lately using Traverse. It's pretty slow to turn on but the card is very good if you can enable it fast enough.

Edit: More thoughts
GBw is still probably the way to go with Traverse because you can use Tidehollow Sculler, it gives information for Therapy (important since you can't flashback it as much) and it's two types when it dies. Courser is also pretty good alongside Deed. The big problem would be getting instants.

On the subject of Probe, why not just use Inquisition of Kozilek instead? Discard is better than card draw since it helps against combo, it doesn't cost 2 life, and it still gives information. The problem is in finding room, in order to add discard you either have to remove the CA engine or the finishers.

sculler is not where we want to be when we are a deed deck. IoK is not where we want to be, if anything Thoughtseize would be the first card I go to after 4 therapies.

The logic is that Probe cantrips and potentially costs 0 mana, leading to very solid lines of play (as well as the home-run opener of being on the play -> probe -> therapy). Any other type of discard is always going to be static discard throughout the game, which depreciates in value over the course of the game. Topdeck probe is at worst "2 life: get the next card", but IoK or another discard spell sucks.
Again, I'm not sure how to fit it all in. Gitaxian is a card that effectively thins your list to 56 cards.

it does not make you 56 cards, you are putting in 4 AIR cards that cost you 2 life, so 56 cards and 12 starting life by your count. This is not a probe style deck and there is a cost to playing 4 probes in a U-less deck.

I get the logic and the appeal, I just don't think it works here. Probe isn't a card we want because we want cards that do things. Delver doesn't even run Probe just because of the cantrip, they run it because it's a free spell to flip Delver, there are several cantrips they avoid because they aren't instants and sorceries.

I do disagree with the 56 card logic too, it's more like you're getting 1 more card drawn by turn 4. So instead of going 10 cards deep out of 60 cards you're going 11 deep. This has a bigger effect earlier in the game but a lesser effect later. Seeing 11 vs 10 is huge but seeing 26 instead of 24 is much less valuable so in a sense cantripping also loses value as the game goes long, and our deck goes long. That's why we need recurring advantage so much, we're not fast enough to take advantage of 1 shot effects.

Whether it's Thoughtseize or IoK or Probe though I don't know where the room would come from. I don't know about you, but I'm really enjoying my 20 creature list and would ideally like to run even more but there's a hard limit to creatures in this deck. Between 4 Top/GSZ/Therapy and 21 lands there's a theoretical maximum of 25 creatures and that's only if you give up all your good removal.

Actually, on the creature count argument I want to touch on Oath of Nissa. It needs 37 hits, with 21 lands that means you need a minimum of 16 creatures/pw's to consider it, and that's for 95% accuracy. If you want better, and if you want to hit business rather than lands you need to run more.

Edit: Has anyone ever actually tried Tidehollow Sculler? I realize it's not green but it's a form of discard (just as tutorable as a Thoughtseize really), it has power, and it gives us knowledge on our opponents hand. It might be easier to find room for a 2/2 than for a spell. For example I've been finding QPM to be my 61st lately, maybe cutting that could work.

Warping the deck to include traverse and/or oath would be something you start from the foundation up. for instance, should you even be playing vet/therapy anymore? Is it not better in a maverick shell? Maverick is dead?

My issue with sculler is that it dies to actual everything including our own deeds. Traverse seems like it belongs elsewhere because we can't get delirium reliably enough.

sdematt

05-04-2016, 06:09 PM

I think Sculler is fine as a sideboard piece against Combo, since most of the time, Deeds are dead there anyway. I'm just not sure Sculler is better than playing true hatebears and 1-CMC discard, since I'm always a fan of turn 1, take something, turn 2, drop a dude that stops you and then the race begins.

However, I would run Sculler right now in Degas or Deadguy Ale, either in main or board.

Realistically, then I'd run something like:

3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ruination
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons/Control Walker

Ruination being not quite as good as Tsunami against all the icky Miracles players, but insane for Lands/Shardless/Jund/Eldrazi. This board is obviously weaker then to SnT rather than AnT, but I've found that matchup to be basically pretty darn bad, so fuck it.

-Matt

Brael

05-04-2016, 06:13 PM

sculler is not where we want to be when we are a deed deck. IoK is not where we want to be, if anything Thoughtseize would be the first card I go to after 4 therapies.

Very possible, but the decks we want Sculler in we usually don't want Deed so it seems like it might be an easy sideboard swap in games 2 and 3 for an edge on decks like Storm.

Warping the deck to include traverse and/or oath would be something you start from the foundation up. for instance, should you even be playing vet/therapy anymore? Is it not better in a maverick shell? Maverick is dead?

I agree, Traverse is very different, I think it's a Legacy viable card but this isn't the deck for it. For one, GSZ and Therapy both actively work against it because neither puts a sorcery into your GY. Oath is a little different but for the most part I agree, I'm not really interested in one shot manipulation effects unless I can get some board presence out of them too.

uncletiggy

05-04-2016, 08:04 PM

This will probably get lost in the high velocity with which we are burning threw pages but i figured id share my progress so far. Ive been conducting my own ground up rebuild using miracles and shardless as the viable control deck models to follow and have yet to test anything but here are my notes and scribbles you can largely ignore the sideboard its just a starting point for when i start testing i apologise the formating didnt paste well:

Miracles control shell:

5-6.5 finisher:
2-3 instakill
3-4.4 slow death

3 non creature wincons
2-3.5 creature based wincons

18 manipulation:
10 card advantage
18 filter

7 permanent based
11 one shot

25 disruption:
23-25 creature answers
14 non creature answer
13 spell based combo
0 graveyard

7 permanent based
15 one shot

Shardless control shell:

10-11 finisher:
1 instakill
9-10 slow death

1 non creature
9-10 creature

16 manipulation:
16 card advantage
5 filter

1 permanent based
15 one shot

26 disrutpion:
18 creature
18 non creature
17 spell based combo
4 graveyard

10 permanent based
16 one shot

Nicfit miracles/shardless model list:

4 zenith
1 arbor
4 explorer
1 ste
1 qpm
1 witness
1 sigarda

3 top
2 intent

3 leyline void
2 helm

4 therapy
1 ts
3 decay
2 lilly
1 deed
1 pulse
2 e bridge
1 trinishpere
1 garruk relentless

2 bayou
1 scrub
2 savannah
2 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath

29 disruption(therapy=8):
20 creature
19 non creature
20 spell based combo
3 graveyard

14 permanent based
20 one shot

7@0 cmc (fb therapy/leyline)
5@1 cmc
0@2 cmc
3@3 cmc
3@4 cmc

13 manipulation(4vet=2):
8 card advantage
13 selection
7 hard tutor

5 permanent based
7 one shot

9 finisher:
3 non creature based
6 creature

10 ramp:
8@1 cmc
5@2 cmc
4@3 cmc

Sb
2 path
1 leyline of the void
1 deed
1 deluge
2 e plaque
1 ts
1 hymm
1 grip
1 lilly
1 sorin
1 decay
2 needle

I feel like a lot of ground is gained vs storm, sns, dredge, reanimator, turbo eldrazi, eldrazi aggro and lands.

Dnt and burn look rough on paper and delver in general may loose some percentage points.

Echelon

05-05-2016, 12:39 AM

Brael

05-05-2016, 01:43 AM

I'm not sure what to say about the list (partly b/c I haven't woken up properly yet), but do let me say this: I'm becoming a bigger and bigger fan of model based deckbuilding. It gives a lot of insight of what one is trying to accomplish with any given list and might, in time, give some solid insight on how the list'd perform.

I don't know if it'll become a thing in the MtG community but if it is, it started here.

Even if SE Fit doesn't take us to new places, it did give us model based deckbuilding and I'm proud of it.

Model based is how I've built for years, I like the concept but it's also easy to go wrong in constructing the model (see the two ideas which have lead to SFM vs Bob as a 2 drop and wildly different deck results). Sometimes the requirements aren't accurate and that's the case now. We have major problems with Eldrazi and Miracles but seem overtuned for Delver. I would suggest we try and Elephant the deck against everything in the DTB forum. Come up with a set of requirements for each archetype and our lists. From there we can identify the core cards and what needs to shift with the meta, alongside how the SB should shift. This should result in a deck that's more balanced against the field while also giving us an optimal sideboard plan.

SE has definitely taken me to new places though. My creature counts are higher, my CA is up, card selection is up. My mana efficiency is up. It's like I can hang with the blue decks now. Shardless, Delver, etc are pretty much never lose but Miracles is sometimes lose and Eldrazi is always lose... we won't even go into S&T and Reanimator.

Actually, if I remember correctly Chapin's deckbuilding book has a chapter devoted to model based building.

uncletiggy

05-05-2016, 02:57 AM

Im honeslty not sure how i feel about it either but i asked a bunch of questions and this was the answer...its super ugly.

Jain_Mor

05-05-2016, 09:56 AM

rubblekill

05-05-2016, 10:01 AM

Jain_Mor

05-05-2016, 10:24 AM

Since I am playing with 2 ts in the main as well, can you post your 75? thanks

Sure, I'm currently in Japan though which has meant I haven't been able to test since these discussions begun (but i did manage to pick up a Japanese Sorin for a good price (the art for that card is sooo bad though, why Eric, why?!))
That said, I was playing with 2 thoughtsiezes for a while, and very much like them.

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1? Marsh flats / Karakas / Tower

3 Top
1 Truths
4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE / DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Tusk / Rhino (I like tusk because it's better against miracles and trades with angler/goyf/smasher)
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed
(I want to test unexpectedly absent... it's like cheaper anguished unmaking / expensive path)

SB
2 Needle
2 Surg Ext
2 TS
1 Sylvan Safekeeper / 1 Rec sage / 1 Diabolic intent if running karakas
1 Teeg
2 Abeyance
1 Engineered Plague
2 Tox Deluge
1 Truths
1 Sorin

Navsi

05-05-2016, 10:32 AM

I don't know abut Unexpectedly Absent, just because the double white in the casting cost can be a pain sometimes. Unmaking might actually be easier to cast, particularly against decks that attack the mana base. Also it doesn't permanently deal with some targets like Unmaking does (i.e. Miracles will still re-draw that Keranos eventually), even if you do get it before a shuffle.

Arianrhod

05-05-2016, 10:39 AM

rubblekill

05-05-2016, 10:40 AM

I hated the art on Sorin at first, but it's grown on me over time. It's very 80s metal-album-cover-looking, which I find hilarious especially in the context of Sorin as a character. I mean he's a planeswalking immortal vampire who fights space monsters that eat entire worlds. If that doesn't sound like some 80s metal song, I don't know what does.

Also I'll note that I have never been one of the people who builds decks with math. I build purely intuitively -- I just lay everything out and say okay, what am I trying to make room for, what has great, what hasn't, etc. So just so all you people with your spreadsheets and maths know, there IS another side to the coin :)

I am like you, math is hard.

Thanks Jain!

Navsi

05-05-2016, 11:04 AM

8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed

A few pages back, Arianrhod was talking about running a 3/2 Path/Decay split which seemed to work out reasonably well. IMO if we're running less than 4 Path, we should be running Unmaking as our Vindicate variant simply because the ability to take out Marit Lage and other indestructible permanents is really handy - Keranos in miracles is another card we have zero outs to if we aren't running Unmaking (unless he animates, haha). I have never found the land hitting of Vindicate to be particularly relevant, especially when most of the scary lands are manlands and so get popped by Deed and Path (looking at you, Inkmoth Nexus). I've never had particularly big issues with other effects - particularly since the decks that screw us with other lands are mainly playing Loam, which makes Vindicate look less important anyway.

I'm thinking of this:

3 Path
2 Decay
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Deed

3 Deeds would be nice but may not be worth it when you consider that the Stoneforge package gives the deck more potential to stabilise without Deed, so it isn't as essential as it would be in a Planeswalker or straight up Rhinotime build.

Personally I also like the look of maindeck Thoughtseize, looking to run a list similar to Jain Mor's above, with these changes:

-1 Veteran
-1 Meren
-1 Arbor
+1 Deathrite (going to 3/2/1 Vet/DRS/STE split)
+1 Rhino (going to 1/1 Rhino/Thragtusk split)
+1 Sylvan Library

I'm not sure if the Sword of Fire And Ice should be staying in considering the Arbor is gone which significantly reduces the number of topdecks capable of carrying a Sword. Might have to become something else, or switch the Library out for a second Eternal Witness.

For the sideboard, I'm thinking something like this:
3 Surgical (seriously, this card is absurd, I'd be tempted to maindeck it sometimes)
2 Needle
1 Thoughtseize (2/1 main/side split imo is enough)
1 Teeg
1 Sorin
7 ???

I'm thinking of putting in some number of cards which can go in against aggro strategies - against Delver and Burn, I want to be able to remove the Truths, Unmaking, and 2 Thoughtseize, so I'm probably going to need 4 cards to replace them. Currently I'm thinking of putting in the remaining 2 Decays (since they're relevant elsewhere too) and something else. I guess Teeg is fine against Burn for Fireblast, and Carpet of Flowers could be relevant against Delver.

Ricardio

05-05-2016, 11:05 AM

Warden

05-05-2016, 01:03 PM

Sure, I'm currently in Japan though which has meant I haven't been able to test since these discussions begun (but i did manage to pick up a Japanese Sorin for a good price (the art for that card is sooo bad though, why Eric, why?!))
That said, I was playing with 2 thoughtsiezes for a while, and very much like them.

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1? Marsh flats / Karakas / Tower

3 Top
1 Truths
4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE / DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Tusk / Rhino (I like tusk because it's better against miracles and trades with angler/goyf/smasher)
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed
(I want to test unexpectedly absent... it's like cheaper anguished unmaking / expensive path)

SB
2 Needle
2 Surg Ext
2 TS
1 Sylvan Safekeeper / 1 Rec sage / 1 Diabolic intent if running karakas
1 Teeg
2 Abeyance
1 Engineered Plague
2 Tox Deluge
1 Truths
1 Sorin

Scary, because I was finalizing a SFM list/package for Junk Fit this morning. Let me see if I can summarize my logic in the remains of my lunch break:
If you go 3 SFM, you're going to see her. By contrast, with only 2 SFM she disappears. There's math involved to determine actual %, but I suffer from lost-my-sock-in-the-wash effect when I run 2 of her. So if I want her, it's 3 or bust. The other side of SFM is the equipment. I'd personally run 2 equipment (the proposed 5-card package of SFM I made many pages ago is still where I'm at mentally). I am against 3 toys because something needs to carry the equipment. You don't want to be relying on SFM herself...and taking this equipment plan even further, you want to be touching the opponent (both in damage and in equipment triggers). I'm comfortable with Batterskull. I'm NOT sold on Jitte for my meta. It may actually be smarter for me to go R/U, B/W, or B/G sword [blanking on names, sorry]. Kev may be able to shed light on the subject of equipment (I know his views of SFM).

I am ambivalent about Arbor. He would be replacing Karakas as land #21, which is something I am not comfortable with. I would love to play 21 lands for the first time. I am also not a fan of going up to 22 lands just for dryad arbor.

As for the list, I would much rather convert those TS slots into something. Maybe they should be "interaction" creatures like Shriekmaw and QPM. Maybe they should just be beatsticks -- going with the "raw power of equipment on NicFit creatures" as others have discussed many pages ago. I think Bobmans at some point said there was something about Rhino + equipment just beating the shit out of your opponent. Maybe the TS should be truths #2 and a finisher.

This is the 60 I'm playing with

4 Gsun
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 DRS #2 / Sakura
1 Ewit
1 Meren
3 Rhino
1 Thragtusk / Thrun / Tasigur
1 Sigarda
3 SFM
/21 (17 + 4 GSZ)

1 BSK
1 secondary equipment
3 Top
2 Truths
/7

4 Therapy
3 Deed
2 Path
2 Decay
1 Pulse / Vindicate
/12

Arianrhod

05-05-2016, 01:19 PM

I'm not going to Mythic on Saturday, but this is where I'd be if I were:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
2 Spike Feeder
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Painful Truths
2 Pithing Needle
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip

I feel bad about being fully powered and always going to legacy over vintage, so I decided that this weekend I'm going to do the reverse and am going to Tales to jam Notion Thieves and Draw7s down peoples' throats.

Anyway.

I still don't have my german foil Recluse that I ordered, so he's not in the list at the moment. He would probably slot in over Spike #2 if I had him. I still want the 3rd Painful Truths, but there's no way to fit the card in maindeck without damaging the creature suite irrevocably. I feel a LITTLE light on GSZ targets as it is, but the angels are just too good. Instead, the 3rd Truths is in the sideboard for Miracles and other super grindy matchups.

There's really just like 3-4 slots between main and sideboard that I'm still not 100% happy with and am still adjusting. Otherwise I think this version is pretty close to perfect for the moment.

Ricardio

05-05-2016, 03:13 PM

Arianrhod

05-05-2016, 03:43 PM

With those humble brags, starting to sound like Matt. I fear he is rubbing off on you. Good luck at your vintage tourney nonetheless. I am going to try to play another league. Sadly, I opted for BUG Legacy irl so I will be playing sunday and Monday with bugstill but fooling around with mtgo in the meantime. I am very excited about gp charlotte coming up.

ON TOPIC: Rhod, have you thought of a cavern in your 75 for those angels you would like to resolve? as a sideboard option against blue decks like miracles where resolving threats means huge game.

I'm not actually sure if the angels even stay in vs Miracles. Thunes might, Baneslayers almost definitely don't. Like, vs Miracles I think the plan should be resolve a Bigwalker, Slaughter out their wincons, and jam Sigarda down their throat repeatedly. Dromoka is still fine vs the non-legendary miracles builds, Tireless Tracker is fantastic still. But in general, I'd rather attack on a different angle as opposed to easily removed creatures. Thune only gets a "might stay in" because of the infinite combo -- if you can somehow manage to get that combo through, Jace (aka, #1 slaughter games target NA) becomes their only way of actually winning the game.

That doesn't mean I haven't thought about Cavern anyway, though. Cavern on Angel basically deletes Delver, and even vs Miracles it still has relevancy via Sigarda, since countering it is basically the only realistic way they have of getting rid of it. The biggest issue therein is finding the stupid thing. Technically you can Top for it, Truths into it, etc -- there's options, but I'm not sure I like any of them. Top is still a priority Needle target in the matchup, along with Jace, and Truths is high on their list of things that they need to counter. It's not like we have Ancient Stirrings or Expedition Map to find it.

Also: I'm almost certain to be at Charlotte, although I don't know if I'll be playing in the main or not.

Tao

05-05-2016, 03:59 PM

Why Path over Swords if you pan to kill with giant Angels or get to infinite life?

sdematt

05-05-2016, 04:03 PM

Why Path over Swords if you pan to kill with giant Angels or get to infinite life?

Asking the real questions. I think here it matters a bit less which one you choose, I agree. I'm just thinking that even if you are going infinite, Jace can still kill you...so you do still have to nug them.

-Matt

sdematt

05-05-2016, 04:05 PM

Also, Happy Liberation Day to the Dutch.

Sincerely,

A Canadian.

Arianrhod

05-05-2016, 04:13 PM

Tao

05-05-2016, 04:21 PM

Asking the real questions. I think here it matters a bit less which one you choose, I agree. I'm just thinking that even if you are going infinite, Jace can still kill you...so you do still have to nug them.

-Matt

I think it matters a lot and I don't think it is close. Swords is just better in that deck. Giving D&T or Goblins Mana on turn 1 on a Mother of Runes or a Lackey is going to wreck you. Giving Infect their early Basic, giving Elves an extra Forest, or any DR Shaman deck with basics an early land hurts, too.

These situations are much more likely to matter than beating Miracles by turn 25 instead of turn 26.

With Rhinos you have a beatdown / lifeloss plan so Swords can hurt. But what do 5 extra life matter with Baneslayers, Archangels and Dragonlords? Certainly not as much as the risk from Path. Either you get these flyers to attack/combo and you win, or you don't and you lose.

sdematt

05-05-2016, 04:24 PM

I think it matters a lot and I don't think it is close. Swords is just better in that deck. Giving D&T or Goblins Mana on turn 1 on a Mother of Runes or a Lackey is going to wreck you. Giving Infect their early Basic, giving Elves an extra Forest, or any DR Shaman deck with basics an early land hurts, too.

These situations are much more likely to matter than beating Miracles by turn 25 instead of turn 26.

With Rhinos you have a beatdown / lifeloss plan so Swords can hurt. But what do 5 extra life matter with Baneslayers, Archangels and Dragonlords? Certainly not as much as the risk from Path. Either you get these flyers to attack/combo and you win, or you don't and you lose.

Fair point.

Ricardio

05-05-2016, 04:39 PM

It matters less with this build, I agree, but it does still matter. Just because it has a combo with Thune in the deck does not mean that it's not still actively pressuring the opponent. Baneslayer usually ends the game in 3 swings, sometimes 2. Swords actively harms that clock. Furthermore, the argument of Path vs Swords vs Lands is still relevant: it's nearly impossible to beat them after they've gained 20 life, but it's quite possible if they grab a Forest instead (assuming that a Vet hasn't gone off already, in which case they get nothing).

Barring a really unusual circumstance, I think that Path is -almost- strictly better than Swords for Nic Fit, in the current meta at the very least.

Path is much better. Its often free and when its a land, it means nothing.

I think it matters a lot and I don't think it is close. Swords is just better in that deck. Giving D&T or Goblins Mana on turn 1 on a Mother of Runes or a Lackey is going to wreck you. Giving Infect their early Basic, giving Elves an extra Forest, or any DR Shaman deck with basics an early land hurts, too.

These situations are much more likely to matter than beating Miracles by turn 25 instead of turn 26.

With Rhinos you have a beatdown / lifeloss plan so Swords can hurt. But what do 5 extra life matter with Baneslayers, Archangels and Dragonlords? Certainly not as much as the risk from Path. Either you get these flyers to attack/combo and you win, or you don't and you lose.

This logic flawed. Giving your opponent a land instead of giving them a turn or two when you are clocking with far superior angels is along with the rhino plan. Control the board, play superior creatures, save the cheerleader, save the world. Pathing a goyf usually results in your opponent exiling their creature and nothing more. when they gain like 6 life and your banelsayer is a 3 turn instead of one turn, that's huge. Path is just the best single target, 1 cmc removal we have. Playing swords is wrong and I feel like there is a glitch in the matrix because we've went over this and we go over it with new people all the time but you have been here so why make a bold statement based off of untested bias? Seems like an oversight.

Liberation day? Nice. Its Cinco de Mayo in Murika. 2 for $1 margaritas and 2 tacos for 2 dollars tonight. and then Civil War!

Brael

05-05-2016, 04:39 PM

Arianrhod

05-05-2016, 04:53 PM

I find it amusing and vaguely insulting that people think that I post my thoughts without any basis behind them. I have a local legacy scene. I have testing partners, including a roommate that plays legacy and vintage. I've tried the deck with Swords, and I've tried the deck with Path. You can make the argument that giving this small cluster of decks an extra land is dangerous. I can just as easily counter with two points: A: in my experience, (not theorycrafting) it's been fine; and B: if you're worried about giving them one land off of Path, why are you playing Nic Fit and giving them two off of a Vet activation?

When it comes to Veteran and Path, it is wise to remind ourselves of the following famous lines:

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
--Dune

The -only- deck in the entire format where I am ruled by my fear is Miracles. Shardless? Set 'em all off. Death and Taxes? Absolutely. Goblins? I'm not happy, but I'll still fuckin do it.

sdematt

05-05-2016, 05:32 PM

Isnt there a Metallica song, "Kill 'Em All"?

Brael

05-05-2016, 05:48 PM

Yah, I've been building decks using spreadsheets and numerical analysis for a long time, so I assumed a lot of people were just doing it too.

I saw a good article about the science of sideboarding (google it) a while ago

And yea, I think thats why this whole discussion began, I've got a lot of data, and the data tells me we can shave points off of our delver and creature matchups to up our miracles and combo game. Hence the inclusion of thoughtsieze and more card advantage.

I must have missed a memo or something, but what is SE fit?

SE Fit was the name for this requirements first system of building, SE standing for Systems Engineering, it's using that same approach where you first outline the requirements for your project and then you make decisions to hit all of those requirements.

On the topic of Thoughtseize, this is my first day of summer break and I've spent the last 9 hours doing nothing other than pondering the question of what cuts do I make to include them. I'm still drawing a blank. This is my current list
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/se-fit/

I see where I can sideboard Thoughtseize, but I don't see where I can really consider it as a MB option without compromising card advantage.

Ricardio

05-05-2016, 09:54 PM

I assume the meta has to be slower but seize sounds strong main imho. I may try to find some room.

Arianrhod

05-05-2016, 11:01 PM

I don't think the meta is nearly fast enough to justify Thoughtseize. You never want to draw the card vs Miracles, Shardless, or Eldrazi. It's fine but unexciting vs Delver, and the combo deck du jour is Lands, which means Thoughtseize is garbage unless you're on the play and have it in your opener. The only reason I still have two in my board at all is because Mythic tends to have a very random metagame spread other than the horde of Delver players. Sometimes people still show up with Show and Tell, Storm, Belcher, etc where Seize is very good. Looking at the Grand Prix metagame, I'm not actually sure if they'll even make the sideboard, to be honest.

Echelon

05-06-2016, 12:39 AM

Model based is how I've built for years, I like the concept but it's also easy to go wrong in constructing the model (see the two ideas which have lead to SFM vs Bob as a 2 drop and wildly different deck results). Sometimes the requirements aren't accurate and that's the case now. We have major problems with Eldrazi and Miracles but seem overtuned for Delver. I would suggest we try and Elephant the deck against everything in the DTB forum. Come up with a set of requirements for each archetype and our lists. From there we can identify the core cards and what needs to shift with the meta, alongside how the SB should shift. This should result in a deck that's more balanced against the field while also giving us an optimal sideboard plan.

SE has definitely taken me to new places though. My creature counts are higher, my CA is up, card selection is up. My mana efficiency is up. It's like I can hang with the blue decks now. Shardless, Delver, etc are pretty much never lose but Miracles is sometimes lose and Eldrazi is always lose... we won't even go into S&T and Reanimator.

Actually, if I remember correctly Chapin's deckbuilding book has a chapter devoted to model based building.

Including building a requirements model? I mean, I've been doing numbers for a long, long time, but never the complete SE miles (and we've skipped a few steps there as well, there's only so much you can do on a forum). It's nice to see the SE approach got you something :smile:.

I should check it out. I'm playing with the idea of writing about it myself (the SE approach in its entirety is convoluted enough to fill an entire book with), but have no interest in regurgitating someone elses work.

I am ambivalent about Arbor. He would be replacing Karakas as land #21, which is something I am not comfortable with. I would love to play 21 lands for the first time. I am also not a fan of going up to 22 lands just for dryad arbor.

Dryad Arbor should, for al intents and purposes, always be considered as a creature and not a land. It should not ever be a part of the actual manabase and in your opening 7 it does not count as a viable land drop. Please do keep in mind that even though I'm saying this, it's one of my pet cards.

Also, Happy Liberation Day to the Dutch.

Sincerely,

A Canadian.

Thank you my good sir.

Isnt there a Metallica song, "Kill 'Em All"?

Otep has "Drunk on the blood of the saints", that start with "Kill 'em all, kill 'em all". I'm of the opinion that "Run for cover" fits this deck better since, you know, noone gets out alive!

Brael

05-06-2016, 01:20 AM

Including building a requirements model? I mean, I've been doing numbers for a long, long time, but never the complete SE miles (and we've skipped a few steps there as well, there's only so much you can do on a forum). It's nice to see the SE approach got you something :smile:.

I should check it out. I'm playing with the idea of writing about it myself (the SE approach in its entirety is convoluted enough to fill an entire book with), but have no interest in regurgitating someone elses work.

I would have to double check the section in the book, I don't remember how in depth it went. As I mentioned, it's something I've done for years so the idea was something of a review when I read about it. If you want to get down to it even articles like Philosophy of Fire are going for a requirements model. The first real decks I built were burn decks and that's the way I approached them after reading those articles. I would start with how much damage I had to deal, how many cards I had, how much mana I had, and work from there. I still use that approach today with Burn and it's very successful.

Dryad Arbor should, for al intents and purposes, always be considered as a creature and not a land. It should not ever be a part of the actual manabase and in your opening 7 it does not count as a viable land drop. Please do keep in mind that even though I'm saying this, it's one of my pet cards.

Was reminded of this today, played a small paper Legacy event, just 3 rounds. Round 1 I was against Shardless BUG, we went to a 1-1-1 but with another 5 min I probably could have won the match. Round 2 was against Show and Tell, won 2-1 in 3 close games. Round 3 was against Jund, lost 2-1. I took the first game, second game I kept Dryad Arbor+Volrath's as my lands with double Explorer, double Therapy in hand (never do this), Arbor ate a bolt, Volraths ate a Wasteland and I scooped. Somehow lost game 3 even though I had Volraths to return a Rhino every turn and got my opponent to 1 life before DRS stalemated the Volraths.

Arbor makes mana, and many times I like it as a T1 ramp option, but if it's going to come down as one of your first 2-3 real land drops, you should always mulligan.

sdematt

05-06-2016, 03:31 AM

I would have to double check the section in the book, I don't remember how in depth it went. As I mentioned, it's something I've done for years so the idea was something of a review when I read about it. If you want to get down to it even articles like Philosophy of Fire are going for a requirements model. The first real decks I built were burn decks and that's the way I approached them after reading those articles. I would start with how much damage I had to deal, how many cards I had, how much mana I had, and work from there. I still use that approach today with Burn and it's very successful.

Was reminded of this today, played a small paper Legacy event, just 3 rounds. Round 1 I was against Shardless BUG, we went to a 1-1-1 but with another 5 min I probably could have won the match. Round 2 was against Show and Tell, won 2-1 in 3 close games. Round 3 was against Jund, lost 2-1. I took the first game, second game I kept Dryad Arbor+Volrath's as my lands with double Explorer, double Therapy in hand (never do this), Arbor ate a bolt, Volraths ate a Wasteland and I scooped. Somehow lost game 3 even though I had Volraths to return a Rhino every turn and got my opponent to 1 life before DRS stalemated the Volraths.

Arbor makes mana, and many times I like it as a T1 ramp option, but if it's going to come down as one of your first 2-3 real land drops, you should always mulligan.

Also, if you guys haven't checked out "Magic: The Addiction", it's very good. Not biased since I'm one of the main foci in the book ;)

Echelon

05-06-2016, 05:10 AM

Also, if you guys haven't checked out "Magic: The Addiction", it's very good. Not biased since I'm one of the main foci in the book ;)

I'll make sure all my bacon is Canadian, since you live there and I promise I'll start listening to Nickleback and Avril Lavigne. Sometimes, man. OMG, lol.

gngpostalsrvc

05-06-2016, 09:33 AM

Hello fellow Nic Fitters! Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been experimenting with a Jund Pod list and would appreciate your feedback. I'm 9-2 with deck so far at my LGS with my only losses being to Burn (twice). The pros of the deck are that it can kill out of nowhere with Birthing Pod and Murderous Redcap and can grind like no one's business against fair decks with Meren and Imperial Recruiter. The cons are that the mana base is kinda wonky (I've been manascrewed more than I should) and there's little interaction for early aggressive creatures. I've only killed with the Melira combo once, so I'm wondering if I should tailor the deck more toward the Kiki combo and the fair game plan.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Viscera Seer

2 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wall of Root
1 Spellskite

4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness

2 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Murderous Redcap

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Birthing Pod
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

SB:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Slaughter Games
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scab-Clan Berserker
1 Minister of Pain
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless

Jain_Mor

05-06-2016, 10:20 AM

@Arianrhod: Agreed regarding Sorin art, I want to like it for those reasons, but just can't
I also often build decks without maths haha, I use both sides of that coin :)

@Navsi, I agree, that removal configuration (3 Path, 2 Decay, 1 3cmc, 2 Deed) was the one I was leaning towards, but wanted to see what people would say without me influencing them. Thanks. I LOVE SoFaI. And the fact that you want to cut Anguished Unmaking against aggro decks makes me not want the card.

@Warden, everytime I try 4 SFM, it feels like too many, and 2 is too little. 3 is goldilocks in my extensive experience. I disagree on your PoV on 2 to 3 equipments. I hate drawing SFM or recurring them with Meren and not having more equipment to fetch. Plus Jitte, SoFaI and BSK are the best of the best. They can all do so much work. That said, if I were to cut one, it would be Jitte. And I do often wonder about changing it for SoLaS for pro-white.. or Body & Mind, or Feast & Famine for Pro-green. And disagree on cutting TS, need to push combo matchups from 50% to 60% if I can.

@Brael, I see thanks. As for making slots... I would cut Kruphix in a heart beat. I still think the card isn't worthy of a slot, cause of its cmc and mediocre attempt at card advantage. Especially as you have 2 bob, 2 tracker and ewit as well. if you really like kruphix, then cut one and one tracker. That's where you find those slots. I'd peronsally cut both kruphix and one tracker, add 2 TS and a Painful Truths. But personal preference etc. or cut a top in any one of those suggestions instead of something else.

@Arianrhod: (Hi again :) Regarding thoughtsieze, I disagree on a number accounts.

The meta doesn't have to be particularly fast to warrant TS. If the meta were fast I probably wouldn't play Nic Fit to begin with..

Remember, I added them to the deck because we can frankly shave some percentage points against a lot of matchups in an attempt to bolster others. TS is an inclusion because it helps with problems we have (combo & miracles) while yet not being useless against the decks we feast on (mid range, delver and creature decks). Where as our abundance of removal spells (that TS supplement) usually are useless against combo and miracles.

Why would you never want to draw TS against miracles? You're telling me you wouldn't love to find TS in your opening hand on the play before they have played top, or fixed their hand with BS? Or on the draw before they drop their counter balance? Or on T3 before they drop their jace? Or on turn X to trade for a removal/counter spell in their hand? Our gameplan against miracles is to overwhelm their answers and prevent their threats. TS does both of those things... and don't mention miracles living off of the top of their deck, people like to think that miracle players have everything hiding under those top 2 cards they float, but the quicker you get them to that desperately fetching and topping stage the easier it is to win.

and the combo deck de jour is not lands? The meta percentage of storm/showntell/reanimator, ie decks weak to TS, far exceeds the meta percentage of lands. MAYBE your meta is completely different to mine (mine being modo and tournaments with open fields)?

Navsi

05-06-2016, 10:28 AM

I get the impression Melira and Kiki are vulnerable to basically the same forms of hate (creature removal spells, mainly) but Melira is additionally vulnerable to graveyard hate, where kiki is harder to cast. The overlap between the two is large enough that you probably don't need both - you don't really get many situations where one combo is releavant but the other wouldn't be, and there are a lot of possible draws where you get one half of one combo and one half of the other.

It's a pity there isn't a good Recruiter target in Jund colours which combos with Kiki, otherwise you could go Recruiter -> Kiki -> copy Recruiter -> combo off. The closest I can think of is this:

- Cast Recruiter (find Kiki-Jiki)
- Cast Kiki-Jiki, copy Recruiter EOT (find Seeker of Skybreak)
- Untap, Cast Seeker of Skybreak
- Copy Seeker of Skybreak, tap it to untap Kiki-Jiki, repeat for a large number of (tapped) copies of Seeker of Skybreak
- Copy Imperial Recruiter (find Wirewood Symbiote)
- Cast Wirewood Symbiote, return a Seeker of Skybreak token to untap Kiki-Jiki
- Copy Wirewood Symbiote, use the new Symbiote and one of the Seeker tokens to untap Kiki-jiki
- Use up all your Seeker tokens to make an arbitrary number of Wirewood Symbiote tokens
- Attack

Uses up two deck slots, and TBH it's no more vulnerable to removal since every form of interaction already kills Kiki-Jiki so it's not that relevant. On the other hand you're playing even more durdly garbage creatures which do nothing on their own. You could make them a bit more relevant by going further down the Elves! plan but then you'd probably be better off just playing Elves.

Edit: You might be able to go off with a single deckslot with Hell's Caretaker, but that card is a) a 4 mana 1/1/ and b) so cripplingly slow and awkward I really don't want to work out the line of play.

rubblekill

05-06-2016, 10:38 AM

Yea I have to agree with Jain, I like discard against miracles. Usually the standard thought process using another deck would be to regard discard as useless because all it matters is whats in their top 3 cards of the deck. However, since in G2-3 our primary goal is to extract their jaces/terminus (angels are weak sauce against 3 deeds), TS helps us survive until that moment and to prevent JTMS from coming into play. And more t1 interactions really helps in ruining their hand: be it by taking their top so their hand becomes trash or a brainstorm (that's backbreaking to them).
I feel this deck lacks discard effects (what I have always missed from the old gb hymn version) and precisely t1 discard: I think i want more t1 interaction against every deck ever, since for the mid to late game we have every type of removal imaginable. Plus synergies with therapy.
Bad late game card: yes but top is here for a reason, that is drawing what we need when we need it in the late game.
Bonus damage against s&s and storm is always good.

I made the choice of playing ts after deciding that I am gonna win with rhino or Sigarda, nothing else. No trackers no coursers no nissa no angels no Titans, rhino after rhino is the most stable way to win in my experience. 4 mana is deed proof, only singletons ooze and drs die to deed in my deck. So I needed to fill the deck with some boring but effective cards in order to ensure that my game plan is going to work. No fun cards, but more stability, early interaction, combo defence.
Probably this isn't my final build of choice, but since the inclusion of ts i feel like I am going in a good direction, for me at least.

Ricardio

05-06-2016, 12:58 PM

I made the choice of playing ts after deciding that I am gonna win with rhino or Sigarda, nothing else. No trackers no coursers no nissa no angels no Titans, rhino after rhino is the most stable way to win in my experience. 4 mana is deed proof, only singletons ooze and drs die to deed in my deck. So I needed to fill the deck with some boring but effective cards in order to ensure that my game plan is going to work. No fun cards, but more stability, early interaction, combo defence.
Probably this isn't my final build of choice, but since the inclusion of ts i feel like I am going in a good direction, for me at least.

it sounds like you are sacrificing yourself to win.

Warden

05-06-2016, 01:41 PM

...
@Warden, everytime I try 4 SFM, it feels like too many, and 2 is too little. 3 is goldilocks in my extensive experience. I disagree on your PoV on 2 to 3 equipments. I hate drawing SFM or recurring them with Meren and not having more equipment to fetch. Plus Jitte, SoFaI and BSK are the best of the best. They can all do so much work. That said, if I were to cut one, it would be Jitte. And I do often wonder about changing it for SoLaS for pro-white.. or Body & Mind, or Feast & Famine for Pro-green. And disagree on cutting TS, need to push combo matchups from 50% to 60% if I can.
...

I'd like to optimize my list against an expected field of Delver (Grixis, BUG), SFM (deathblade, patriot), and Shardless. Any advice welcome.
I'm very interested in running the SFM build. I like a lot of Jain_Mor's shell (quoted below), but believe game 1 against fringe combo/miracles is a lost cause. I'd much rather let the SB take care of terrible matchups than water down my odds against stuff I should auto-win. Philosophically, I'd like to be 90% win against what I should be beating. I don't want to be a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none.

Jain_Mor's post a page or two back was this as a core:

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1? Marsh flats / Karakas / Tower

3 Top
1 Truths
4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE / DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Tusk / Rhino (I like tusk because it's better against miracles and trades with angler/goyf/smasher)
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
2 Thoughtsieze
8 removal spells, hvnt decided on ratios yet, help??
x Path
x Decay
x Pulse/vindicate
x Deed

I don't like TS main for tomorrow. If I go this route, I may as well just audible to Junk-blade and get the whole gang: SFM/Confidant/KotR/Liliana/TS/Hymn. I just need to pick the best package and play smart. Whether it's SFM + Rhino, SFM + Baneslayer, 4 Rhino + 1 Tusk, 3 Rhino + 2 Baneslayer, etc.

Even if it's irrational, I love the concept of SFM + Rhino. SFM is goddamn resilient. Plus there's the raw power of landing SFM early --> Batterskull. If SFM is countered or killed off, you follow thing up with lord Rhino.

Jain_Mor

05-06-2016, 11:32 PM

@rubblekill, sounds sensible

@ricardio, sounds like he's going to a tournament :P

@rubblekill & ricardio, I get you guys confused soooo much. Your names begin with "R" and you tend to agree with each other a lot that I forget who is who. Also rubblekill is from italy but ricardio has "io" at the end of his name, so I get the confused too. My brain conflates that you're related or something. Stupid brain making patterns where there are none.

@Warden, key to beating shardless is, cut your therapies game 2 but dont cut your veterans. They actually can't win without attacking on the ground and they are great against liliana so you don't need your therapies to make your vets die, let them do the work for you. The other key card is Meren, as long as you subdue their DRSs they can't stop you pulling ahead. Deed is sweet obviously and they usually over commit. They beat you by hitting loads of visions and landing an unconested jace.

I dont get why people think combo decks are fringe or whatever, I guess irl magic has a smaller combo meta percentage? I think your goal of being 90% and 30-40% against other decks when you can be 70% and 50% is flawed, but again preference etc. I also think the argument of "well if we run X card we might as well completely change the deck and add YZABCD and E cards too" is a bit silly/disingenuous. But if you are set on not running TS, then cut them and add 3rd deed and a rhino. Yes Rhino is besties with SoFaI/equipment. SFM and Rhino is a little like peanut butter and chocolate thanks to his trample. If you want more Rhinos, cut Tusk, Tracker, and Mere/Jitte if you really want the 4th :)

Good luck and enjoy!

Echelon

05-07-2016, 12:29 AM

I dont get why people think combo decks are fringe or whatever, I guess irl magic has a smaller combo meta percentage? I think your goal of being 90% and 30-40% against other decks when you can be 70% and 50% is flawed, but again preference etc. I also think the argument of "well if we run X card we might as well completely change the deck and add YZABCD and E cards too" is a bit silly/disingenuous. But if you are set on not running TS, then cut them and add 3rd deed and a rhino. Yes Rhino is besties with SoFaI/equipment. SFM and Rhino is a little like peanut butter and chocolate thanks to his trample. If you want more Rhinos, cut Tusk, Tracker, and Mere/Jitte if you really want the 4th :)

Depends on your local meta. At my LGS there usually is between 1 and 3 ANT/TES pilots, out of 20. They often get booted to the lower ranks by the big chunk of Delver/other ANT/TES unfriendly decks. If you manage to win round 1 you're usually good. If not, prepare to have a tough day. Miracles is usually between 0 and 2 out of 20 at my LGS and usually does quite well. You can't win them all I suppose.

Warden

05-07-2016, 01:02 AM

The combo decks I'd face in my mets are fringe: Storm (if it's there), Omni, Painter, combo Lands, combo elves. The exception is the level of each pilot -- as deck inventors or strong pilots literally fill the meta. Most of what I'd face based on data from 2016 indicates a large heap of delver players. Unless the top players, usually piloting delver, all leave tomorrow (GP and Tales), I have a strong sense of what I'd face. 2 TS in the main isn't going to do much against the decks I listed. I'd much rather ensure strong anti-delver / anti-BUG.
Biggest thing I have to decide is whether I am using a SFM shell or not. I think @Jain_Mor is on the money with why it's good. I'm willing to to try it, assuming the room works for it

Jain_Mor

05-07-2016, 02:25 AM

@Echelon, that's a good point, and might explain why league's are particularly awkward. The decks you face aren't at all rated on how well they are doing in the league. You're just as likely to face a combo deck match 1 as match 5.

@Warden, that makes sense. And tip for playing SFM: be happy when she gets decayed, StP'd, FoW'd or stifled. That's one of her roles in the deck. To make the opponent waste mana/turns/cards on her. Which is good because mana they spend on her is mana they aren't using to pressure us or develop their board, which means the game goes longer. Also we can realiably get to the mana necessary to cast BSK and cast and equip equipment on the same turn.

ie. Most decks that play SFM want to protect her so they can use her activated ability (daze, MoM, discard, FoW etc) but we don't actually care, and in fact prefer it if our opponent craps their pants because we threaten a turn 3 BSK and spend their time answering her. That's fantastic actually. You're going to hard cast that BSK in a turn or two anyway, or there is one less counter for your Deed/rhino etc

If they dont answer her, then great, slam that bsk down and make them deal with it while you accumulate more mana and more resilient threats

uncletiggy

05-07-2016, 12:06 PM

If only there was room for two batterskulls. Theres not much more demoralizing then two skulls...maybe a jace at 13

Navsi

05-07-2016, 12:24 PM

Played 5 rounds today, I won't have a report up because I made a large number of crippling misplace and didn't do anything particularly interesting, but:

- Tireless Tracker is the real deal, especially with equipment.
- I agree that 3 Sfm and 2-3 Equipment is the right package if you're on SFM. I never used Batterskull today (mostly jitte) but on at least one occasion probably should have.
- I'm tempted to swap the second utility land (I took Stronghold) for a manland. Leaning towards the B/W 2/3 with lifelink, since it's a great equipment carrier in an emergency. Treetop Village might be best though.
- 3 Path 2 Decay 1 Unmaking felt fine, I had the other 2 Decays in the sideboard.
- Deeds and Jitte are a bit of a nonbo. I'm tempted to move Jitte to the sideboard for those matches where there are lots of little creatures and just play 3 Deeds main.

pettdan

05-07-2016, 01:16 PM

@Uncletiggy: I was playing 2 Stoneforges + 2 Batterskulls in junk fit some 2-3 years ago, and I play 1-1 right now. The other two are basically Rhinos now. Hard to say what's the better way to do it. Rhino has been week vs Miracles so I tried some mix of Safekeeper/Batterskull. Actually won the last Miracles game but too soon to say how successfull it is..

Vestige

05-07-2016, 02:15 PM

uncletiggy

05-07-2016, 02:20 PM

Vestige

05-07-2016, 02:26 PM

Id only play sage over pridemage if i was heavily invested in reccurring nightmare, and i believe im still the only person holding onto nightmare. That being said i play the pridemage regardless. He clocks better and zeniths around pierce a turn sooner. You definetly want one of the two on the scg circut.

I mean, the question isn't particularly whether to play rec sage over pridemage, I was moreso wondering if having the effect at all main deck was worth it. I was considering cutting out my one slot to add in dragonlord dromoka, but you're probably right in that it's better to have access to it in such an open meta. I think i'll cut down to 3 siege rhino instead.

Brael

05-07-2016, 02:27 PM

Hey y'all, just a general question, Is reclamation sage worth playing main decked as a silver bullet?

I know that the answer is probably 'It's meta dependant', so i'm only ever going to be playing in SCG events (so opens, challenges, IQs and side events) in the midwest. I have no idea what people generally play around here except I see a lot of D&T whenever I roam around the tables at events. I know that isn't much help, but hey, i'm still pretty new.

Edit: BTW, i'm playing Rhino-fit. Forgot to mention.

Qasali Pridemage is better. More toughness, conditionally adds more power, cheaper to GSZ for, lets you choose when to blow something up.

That said, I'm finding QPM to be my 61st in a lot of cases and am considering cutting it all together, there's a lot of overlap with Abrupt Decay.

sdematt

05-07-2016, 07:43 PM

Qasali Pridemage is better. More toughness, conditionally adds more power, cheaper to GSZ for, lets you choose when to blow something up.

That said, I'm finding QPM to be my 61st in a lot of cases and am considering cutting it all together, there's a lot of overlap with Abrupt Decay.

I liked QPM for a long time, but I've since cut it for Safekeeper. Not sure you NEED it in the 75, but it's nice to have sometimes. I just don't think it's high impact often enough, since I'd rather have, say, Safekeeper or something.

Brael

05-07-2016, 08:01 PM

I liked QPM for a long time, but I've since cut it for Safekeeper. Not sure you NEED it in the 75, but it's nice to have sometimes. I just don't think it's high impact often enough, since I'd rather have, say, Safekeeper or something.

I like Safekeeper, I don't own any but I just ordered one the other day (I think I did the other day atleast, not 100% certain), of course I'm traveling until the end of the month so I won't have it to play in paper for awhile. Sylvan Safekeeper basically hits every point I was wanting to hit with a 61st card:

It's green
It's 2 mana or less, so it lowers my curve
It's a mana sink
It interacts with the opponent
It's resource conversion
It protects our threats
It hits the opponent

It's all theory for me right now but I have to say, there's a lot to like about it.

ingenious28

05-07-2016, 08:08 PM

hey all

i've been looking at decks for getting into legacy and I'm pretty stoked on nic fit. i built this version online and started testing and i was hoping to get a once over from y'all for opinions. i feel it's pretty stock and a good starting point, but any pointers on the list would be welcome. i don't currently have any concept for a SB, but my aim is to have something put together for a legacy open coming to my town in a few months:

//Land (22)
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

//Creature (15)
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer

//Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Instant (5)
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Path to Exile

//Sorcery (10)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

//Enchantment (3)
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalker (3)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

//Total (61)

Brael

05-08-2016, 12:37 AM

So here's a thought, is anyone interested in trying to make a sideboard for SE fit based on the requirements for various matchups? I was thinking we could take that approach to figure out an optimal configuration for the various DTB decks in games 2 and 3. The first step would be in laying out the requirements for each match.

Maybe start like this for each of Eldrazi, Miracles, Infect, Grixis, D&T:
Threat count, answer count, speed, CA needed, curve

Echelon

05-08-2016, 12:38 AM

@ingenious28: The Rhino list doesn't really need LotV. I think you're better off switching those for 2 extra AD/PtE (depending on your meta and personal preference).

@Brael: FUCK YES! I'll start working on the requirements model tomorrow. Need to do a good deal of thinking first.

ingenious28

05-08-2016, 10:45 AM

@ingenious28: The Rhino list doesn't really need LotV. I think you're better off switching those for 2 extra AD/PtE (depending on your meta and personal preference).

can you explain the reasoning for this? i don't quite see why rhinos preclude LotV. its seems to be a nice thing to curve out of.

uncletiggy

05-08-2016, 12:47 PM

If you want to leave the lillys id cut a deathrite to up your deed count to 3.

sdematt

05-08-2016, 01:12 PM

can you explain the reasoning for this? i don't quite see why rhinos preclude LotV. its seems to be a nice thing to curve out of.

Liliana isnt as good in Junk because you want to hold onto cards, and you arent needing help in the matchups where she shines. Different story in Jund, or if youre playing Gigapede.

ingenious28

05-08-2016, 01:42 PM

Liliana isnt as good in Junk because you want to hold onto cards, and you arent needing help in the matchups where she shines. Different story in Jund, or if youre playing Gigapede.

ahh. i can see that, thanks :D

TTX

05-08-2016, 03:24 PM

Hey guys, I've been working on tweaking this list for a couple weeks now. I haven't got much feedback, maybe I'm the only one playing Scapefit on this thread.
Anyway, I thought I'd share again what I've been slinging.
Overall the deck focuses more on assembling the combo since few decks can adequate deal with it (Aven Mindcensor, Leonin Arbiter, and Blood Moon), but I do play a few creatures, that usually require an answer by the opponent or serve as a shield between the 4th and 7th land.
Really strong game against Miracles and Delver variants (except Grixis can be tight), Death and Taxes, and any controlling deck usually is a good matchup.

Infect and Charbelcher can be a toss up if I have the appropriate removal they are sunk, but sometimes they get the nuts, also Dredge can be rough, since I'm
playing full graveyard removal, such as Ravenous Trap.

Decks that I still struggle with are ANT and Show and Tell based decks that go big faster than me, and can handle some degree of hand disruption.
I'm not sure how to approach these decks except to play very tight on the TherapeuticSlaughterExtraction plan to rid them of win conditions altogether.
I included Deathrite Shaman as he is usually excellent and sometimes I don't want to get another Veteran but can't go bigger.
Here's the list: Tireless Tracker is an excellent bridge from the mid-game to the endgame. He enables the assembly of any combo piece and is a win condition all his own.

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Wood Elves
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
2 Scapeshift

4 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

1 Vexing Shusher
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ruination
1 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami

The sideboard is still variable for me, I may be playing too many creature sweepers:

Toxic Deluge (anything big, especially Eldrazi Stompy, True-Name Nemesis)
Pyroclasm (Elves, Pyromancer tokens, Merfolk, Goblins)
Massacre (Death and Taxes, anything with Plains and many creatures)

Anti-Miracles measures:

Vexing Shusher (prevents a Counterbalance lock, but is still vulnerable to StP and Terminus).
Carpet of Flowers (I remove 3 Vets from the main board against Miracles and dig in for the long
game. Carpet is asymmetric so I can still race ahead with early Slaughter Games and large GSZ).
Tsunami (resolving one of these is usually game, and is a nice "must counter" that you can follow up
with a Scapeshift anyway).
Maelstrom Pulse is a spot removal suited for Jace, Blood Moon, Leyline of Sanctity or any other problematic permanents; relevant in other matchups as well.
Surgical Extraction I play against Miracles too because removing Brainstorm, or Terminus, or Sensei's Top
really screws up they game plan, also Snapcaster can be really good, and an Extraction of their key target
can be back-breaking.
Slaughter Games. This card is fantastic, and am still considering running 3 in the sideboard. Against Miracles
I pretty much always get rid of their JtMS first, then determine the next name from there. The next name is also
determined by what they have in their hand and in play, but Entreat is a fine name if you are without a P Deed, or Sensei's Top, or Terminus, or Snapcaster, or Monastery Mentor, or Counterbalance etc.

The Lands and Turbo Depths matchup is more difficult than with Junk Fit, as I don't play Path to Exile. They can
really slow you down with Wasteland recursion and Rishadan port, so Ruination is what I have been playing around
with, but maybe this necessitates another basic land inclusion in the main deck.
Turbo Eldrazi or other Cloudpost-based decks I can usually rumble with since they have minimal disruption (except CotV sometimes), but they're usually slow enough that Ruination kills them, or simply go for the Valakut.

Scapeshift and Innocent Blood need no explanation.

Tao

05-08-2016, 04:00 PM

Cutting Primeval Titan from Scapewish? I find that very odd.

TTX

05-08-2016, 04:28 PM

Often Titan served the "win more" slot. It most often is a dead card in hand and I'd actually rather Zenith for Tracker late game because of the card advantage. Generally whenever I could be getting Titan into play, I could just be winning with Scapeshift.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brael

05-08-2016, 05:47 PM

@Brael, I see thanks. As for making slots... I would cut Kruphix in a heart beat. I still think the card isn't worthy of a slot, cause of its cmc and mediocre attempt at card advantage. Especially as you have 2 bob, 2 tracker and ewit as well. if you really like kruphix, then cut one and one tracker. That's where you find those slots. I'd peronsally cut both kruphix and one tracker, add 2 TS and a Painful Truths. But personal preference etc. or cut a top in any one of those suggestions instead of something else.

Can't remember if I replied to this, so I'll just do so again. I've gone down to 1 Kruphix now, but it's still useful to hit even though I don't GSZ for it much. It stacks very well with Top and it's a form of CA that stacks well alongside Bob and Tracker. I like having lots of pieces that can combine together rather than just going up on more of the more efficient card like a third Tracker because they're more efficient in combination.

At the last tournament I played (which I posted about and did horrible at) I did throw some TS in the board, when I was bringing them in I was taking out CA such as in the S&T matchup where it's more important to disrupt than to grind my way up on cards. I'm hoping to come up with a slightly better plan though using the SE Fit approach to construct an optimal 60 for each match, and then deciding on my MB/SB from there.

Jain_Mor

05-09-2016, 12:47 AM

Yea, it is often useful to construct decks as 75 cards.

Echelon

05-09-2016, 01:27 AM

Alright people, it's SE sideboard time!

To do this, we're taking the strictly by the numbers SE list (regardless of our personal opinion about it. We mostly just need a common base to work from. After this we just take what we've learned and apply it to our personal lists), for reference:
Creatures (17)
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifacts (4):
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sorceries & instants (14):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments (3):
3 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers (1):
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Lands (21):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

The list isn't important just yet, but I do want to put it out there so we can get a feel for what we're working with.

The first step would be to summarize what MUs trouble us and work out for each MU why it is such a problem. For this, we are not looking at our LGS but rather the current DTB section + known troublemakers.

First up is Miracles - they're a problem for a couple of reasons:
- They can answer any of our creatures for just W
- They can answer any number of our creatures at the same time for W
- They are more consistent
- Some of their threats are incredibly hard to answer for us
- They run basic lands

ANT/TES:
- They kill us before we can kill them
- They run a lot of redundancy, making our interaction less effective
- They are more consistent
- They run basic lands

The rest of the current DTB section:

Infect:
- They kill us before we can kill them
- Their threats are hard to block
- They are more consistent

Eldrazi Stompy:
- Their lock pieces slow us down significantly
- Their threats are bigger than ours

Grixis Delver (in my experience a very good MU):
- They have a strong mana denial plan
- Their top end threat can outclass Siege Rhino

D&T:
- They play basic lands
- They have a strong mana denial plan
- They can answer most of our threats for W
- They can protect their own threats (blanking our own spotremoval)

Known offenders:
- anyShow & Tell
- Dredge
- Tin Fins
- Turbo Eldrazi
- Lands

Feel free to add to the above. I'm looking for both MUs we feel we must improve via sideboarding and expansions on why those MUs are so troubling for us.

A lot of this will just be stating the obvious, but sometimes the obvious needs to be stated to ensure everybody still finds it obvious. Testing the common knowledge. Experience tells that this is something that needs to be done from time to time (and that's OK!).

Our next project is officially underway!

Dadadot

05-09-2016, 03:26 AM

My current sideboard which is always work in progress:
1x Night Of Souls' Betrayal
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Tsunami
2x Containment Priest
1x Glissa
1x Golgari Charm
3x Slaughter Games

(Gaddock 1x Mb)

First up is Miracles - they're a problem for a couple of reasons:
- 3x Slaughter Games
- 1x Beer (muscle relaxant)

ANT/TES:
- 3x Slaughter Games
- 3x Thoughtseize
- 2x Surgical

Infect:
I run one melira in the sideboard. The gsz for 2 is kinda suspicious but the look in an infect players eyes when melira drops is just beautiful.
Other not so infect specific sb cards are: 2x Thoughtseize, Golgari Charm and (the big one) night of souls' betrayal.

Eldrazi Stompy:
I tried Glissa on my last tournament. Since i had her main and didn't face any decks she was useful against (which seems almost every deck) I moved her to sb. I don't have much experience against these decks but it feels like a skillmatchup which is most times decided in the first 2-3 turns.

Grixis Delver (in my experience a very good MU):
I love to see a turn one delver with any combination of lands. I can only imagine they must feel the same way against nicfit we feel against 12-post. There is little need to sideboard much.
- Nosb, goglari charm
Maybe:
- 1-2 Thoughtseize, 1-2 Surgical
But mainly it's about resolving rhinos.

D&T:
- Nosb, Golgari Charm
- Maybe one Surgical Extraction if I feel lucky
- Maybe 1-2 Thoughtseize

I feel like this matchup is strongly nicfit favored. We got all the tools and our gameplan of handdisruption into midrange ramp is oftentimes just too much to handle for them. You are just looking to grind them out.

Known offenders:
- anyShow & Tell
I just played this matchup a very few times. In my experience they concede when containment priest hits. Dunno why though. It's probably about disruption, locking and removing their pieces combined with luck.
- 2x containment priest
- 2x surgical
- 3x thoughseize
- 3x slaughter games

- Dredge
Little experience (again) but the times i faced dredge i mostly was underwhelmed (knowing all the other combo decks). Maybe it's because i used to run leyline of the void.
- 2x Containment priest
- 2x Surgical
- Maybe slaughter games (dunno really)

We should differ between mana and manaless.

- Tin Fins
Crazy fun matchup though i tend to lose. I still got much room to learn here but it almost feels like 50/50.
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
2x Containment Priest
1x Golgari Charm
3x Slaughter Games

- Turbo Eldrazi
If I can hold back the tears I feel like I've actually did something against them.

- Lands
Yeah, no fucking clue. What you guys do against them?
I'd board:
- 2x Surgical
- 3x Slaugher Games

Well, I hope this was any help. Would love to see further discuassion since in my year and a half of playing nicfit i mostly worked on the mb.

Echelon

05-09-2016, 03:39 AM

@Dadadot: I really appreciate the work you've put into that, but you're skipping a few steps there. We're not just jumping into sideboards, we're using tried and proven development methods to work our way towards a sideboard.

We can break our proces down to a few steps:
- Identify the problem(s) (preferably stepping away from deck X and Y and evolving to "T1/T2 kills" for instance)
- Set up a requirements model ("to solve that problem, we need to interact with our opponent T1/T2")
- Develop a solution that solves the problems we identified and upholds the requirements we set for it

Currently we're at the first step - figuring out what the problem really is. For instance: Miracles in itself isn't the problem, the fact that they have certain capabilities that hinder our gameplan is. I want to take a similar approach as we did when we were building the SE Fit list. Rather than think of cards as creatures and instants etc., think of them as interaction pieces or finishers, regardless of the card type. It's all about the function a card fulfills. The translation to our SE SB is that we're stepping away from defining certain MUs as problems but rather define certain behavior those MUs exhibit as the problems we need to solve.

Navsi

05-09-2016, 03:40 AM

I have this SB currently:

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize (2 main)
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (0 main)
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Abrupt Decay (2 main)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Zealous Persecution

Not much Eldrazi around me, so no Glissa, and Infect isn't that common - mainly DnT and Miracles + unfair decks.

IMO our main issues are:
- More effective threats than ours (Jace, Angler, Combo, Infect creatures, Marit Lage) - particularly ones resistant to removal
- Our game plan getting disrupted (Thalia, Lock pieces, Wasteland

Dadadot

05-09-2016, 03:42 AM

Ok, ic. Well, i will just leave my above comment there and figure out questions or contributions.

Echelon

05-09-2016, 04:26 AM

IMO our main issues are:
- More effective threats than ours (Jace, Angler, Combo, Infect creatures, Marit Lage) - particularly ones resistant to removal
- Our game plan getting disrupted (Thalia, Lock pieces, Wasteland

Try the above format. Boiling it down to just this still doesn't allow us to properly construct a SB. Some of those cases are don't-cares (Angler, Thalia, Wasteland), others are so widespread that we can't form abstract statements to envelop them all (and at this point in time I refuse to put up "Must include X answers to Jace" as a requirement. This might change over time if that is where this project takes us, but now is not yet that time).

I foresee that this is going to be one tough cookie.

@everyone: Feel free to pitch in, but try to stick to the provided format. That'll hopefully force you out of your comfort zone a little and helps me compile the data afterwards.

Things I do not want to see (yet):
- Complete sideboards
- Sideboard suggestions
- Sideboarding tables
- Specific problem cards from other decks (This may sound strange but trust me on this one. We'll come to specifics later)

Things I do want to see:
- What MUs do you have trouble with
- What does that deck do to cause problems for you

Navsi

05-09-2016, 05:12 AM

I don't think we need to split things up as much as you are Echelon. Across all decks, our two weaknesses are resource denial and wincons we have difficulty interacting with. We can split these into:

Resource Denial

- Nonbasic hate (i.e. Wasteland)
- Counterspells (Force, Daze) - Counters and Wastes trade 1 for 1, which means we don't necessarily need many 'answers' for them because they don't actually generate advantage directly themselves. Overloading counterspells is a possibility - we can't really overload a Thalia.
- 'Hatebears (Thalia, etc)
- Noncreature lock pieces (Counterbalance, Chalice)

Threats

- Large 'fair' creatures (Gurmag Angler, Reality Smasher)
- 'Unfair' creatures (Griselbrand, Emrakul, Marit Lage)
- Noncreature permanent wincons (Planeswalkers, Keranos, Grindstone)
- Combos out of hand (Storm)
- Graveyard effects (Reanimator, Dredge)
- Infect (doesn't fit anywhere else)

For each of these categories we are going to want some number of effects which can prevent it from happening. We have some maindeck options:

Wasteland: 6+ basic lands, 8+ fetchlands, Veteran Explorer, STE.
Hatebears: Spot removal maindeck already, sometimes discard
Counterspells: Cabal therapy goes here. Also Dragonlord Dromoka and making enough mana to bypass Daze/Pierce.
Lock pieces: Decay, Vindicates, sometimes discard.

Fair creatures: Spot removal, our own big creatures.
Unfair creatures: Path (unless Emrakul), discard
Noncreature permanents: Vindicate, sometimes decay, discard
Storm: Discard, any hatebears
Graveyard: Deathrite/Scooze, sometimes discard
Infect: spot removal, discard, our own creatures

Looking at the list you put up Echelon, you have the following number of cards which interact with each 'problem':

Wasteland: loads. I don't think we need to SB for this unless we want hate for Port.
Hatebears: ~9 (Path, Decay, Deed)
Counterspells: 4 (Therapy)
Lock pieces: 7 (Decay, Deed, QPM)

Fair creatures: ~8 (Path, Rhino, Sigarda/Meren, Sorin) - I don't think Deed counts here.
Unfair creatures: ~7 (Therapy, Path)
Noncreatures: ~6 (Therapy, Sorin/Decay/Deed) - lots of variety here but we have an answer to most things somewhere, unless it's Keranos
Storm: 4 (Therapy)
Graveyard: 3 (Deathrite)
Infect: 15+ (all our removal and all our creatures) NB: If we read 'infect' as 'Inkmoth Nexus' we have 7 (Path, Deed, Sigarda).

So the strategies we have the least maindeck interaction with are, in order:
1. Graveyard effects (only DRS/Ooze main)
2. Storm (just our discard)
3. Noncreature wincons (Pretty reliant on Therapy here too, but we have a few other ways of interacting usually)
4. Unfair creature wincons (Therapy again, but we have Path to shore up. Emrakul basically counts as a Storm wincon for interaction)
5. Inkmoth Nexus
6. Noncreature lock pieces (quite dependent on Decay numbers)
7. Fair large creatures (i.e. CMC>3) - our own creatures help here
8. Hatebears - vulnerable to all our removal, so we can at least interact on some level

IMO we can potentially get the 'interaction count' to ~10 for each of these categories post-sideboarding. I don't think we can get much further than that without sacrificing points in other areas. In particular, increasing our discard count and extraction effects will bump up the numbers of a large number of these issues at the same time.

Echelon

05-09-2016, 05:23 AM

I have the feeling I'm not getting my point across. If we continue this way the project'll end shortly (and, to be clear, that'd be my fault). What part of what I'm trying to start is unclear or do you disagree on?

The plan is to:
- Figure out what sorts of deck behavior we have trouble dealing with (and mana denial is one thing we don't care about on general principle)
- Break those problems down into fitting categories (make them more abstract so we're less inclined to think in specifics)
- Formulate theoretical sollutions to those problems (our creatures get swept away -> kill via non-creature cards etc.)
- Come up with a set of requirements and a distribution (using the provided SE Fit list as base)
- Build the SB

On a sidenote: I think Infect should be considered out of hand combo. They get us with a protected alpha-strike. Some of their creatures (Nexus and the blue guy) either have evasion or are just unblockable. For the stuff we can block with ground forces (4 out of 12 threats), a Siege Rhino is pretty laughable in the face of Invigorate + Berserk (and that isn't even a nut kill).

Oh, and an opposing FoW is a 2-for-1 in our favor, not a 1-for-1.

Navsi

05-09-2016, 06:06 AM

- Figure out what sorts of deck behavior we have trouble dealing with (and mana denial is one thing we don't care about on general principle)

That's what I started on. There are four ways we lose games, which are the same for every deck in Magic pretty much:
1. We lose to ourselves (mulligan, manascrew, etc)
2. Our gameplan is disrupted in some way
3. Our opponent's gameplan is faster than ours
4. Our opponent's gameplan goes bigger than ours

We can disregard 1. because we've already agreed we're building to counteract variance as best we can. Nothing more to be done here.
3 and 4 are actually very similar. The deck does not often lose to vanilla 'faster than you' decks like generic Delver, Stoneblade and Burn. That means the 'faster' decks are mainly combo decks, which can be considered very similar to 'going bigger' since they often don't care about our threats in a similar manner to a deck which goes bigger than us. It can be simplified to 'Our opponent executes their gameplan in a manner we can't interact with favorably, and wins because of it'.

- Break those problems down into fitting categories (make them more abstract so we're less inclined to think in specifics)

This what I was just doing. IMO working in heavily abstracted terms is less relevant - this is because in Magic, every problem has a specific set of possible solutions to it. As such when separating out our problems, we should consider them with regards to what cards we can use to solve them. As far as our deck goes, Grindstone (as a card) is functionally similar to, say, Jitte - they're both cards which are answered by Decay, Pithing Needle, and basically nothing else bar discard. As such we should treat them similarly when deciding what we should be playing.

- Formulate theoretical sollutions to those problems (our creatures get swept away -> kill via non-creature cards etc.)
- Come up with a set of requirements and a distribution (using the provided SE Fit list as base)

I think you have these the wrong way round. We need to work out what distribution of solutions we want before we work out what those solutions are. We already know we are going to want answers to every problem on our list. We need to work out how many answer to each problem we want, before we work out what they are, because there is overlap between things. Surgical Extraction hits storm, miracles, and graveyard decks. Deciding that the hate we want for Storm is Canonist, and for Miracles we want Slaughter Games or whatever, isn't appropriate until we know how many slots we are working with and whether we can afford to diversify our answers like that or have to play overlapping catchalls with relevance in more matchups.

Echelon

05-09-2016, 07:27 AM

This what I was just doing.

...

I think you have these the wrong way round. We need to work out what distribution of solutions we want before we work out what those solutions are. We already know we are going to want answers to every problem on our list. We need to work out how many answer to each problem we want, before we work out what they are, because there is overlap between things. Surgical Extraction hits storm, miracles, and graveyard decks. Deciding that the hate we want for Storm is Canonist, and for Miracles we want Slaughter Games or whatever, isn't appropriate until we know how many slots we are working with and whether we can afford to diversify our answers like that or have to play overlapping catchalls with relevance in more matchups.

One step at a time, buddy :wink:. That's how these development cycles work. Give the rest a chance to join in on it. If we all work at different stages of the proces at the same time it turns into an unmanagable mess. You have some great insights but they just have to wait a little bit. Lets first lay down a foundation the general populace understands and agrees upon and work from there. This proces is the tortoise, not the hare.

You may very well be right about that last part. We'll figure it out as we get there. It isn't important yet.

Noctalor

05-09-2016, 07:31 AM

Top8ed again yesterday with BUG pod

1 Eternal Witness
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
2 Ophiomancer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Volcanic Island
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta

SIDEBOARD:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
3 Flusterstorm
3 Duress
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Giant Solifuge
1 Zur Weirdings

Ophiomancer doing work against eldrazi :laugh:

Jain_Mor

05-09-2016, 08:50 AM

@Noctalor, cool! What did you top 8? and can we expect a report? I've always wanted to play Ophiomancer but never found a good home for him, but Pod looks like a perfect fit, nice one. Also it be real helpful if you cost-sorted your deck list :P

Echelon

05-09-2016, 08:56 AM

Cost and type sorted, lol.

Arianrhod

05-09-2016, 09:43 AM

I'll try to weigh in on this sideboarding thing.

There are three primary nests of problem decks.

Group A:

Metalworker MUD
12post
Some Eldrazi draws

Group B:

Miracles
Landstill

Group C:

Belcher
Reanimator
ANT/TES
Some Sneak/Show / OmniShow / High Tide draws
Infect

Group A+C:

Lands

Let's get into some quick why's:

Group A is an issue because they go bigger than we do, faster than we go barring our nut draw (Tower shenanigans). Greaves into Metalworker is a tension spot, as is Show and Tell into Primeval Titan, as is Exploration/Manabond, as is just playing a pile of Cloudposts: we don't have any land interaction outside of a sometimes 1-of Vindicate, so they're free to deploy their multi-mana lands without punishment.

Group B is an issue because they have very high-quality answers backed with a ton of card advantage and selection, which makes it very hard to pressure them. I believe that this category has actually gotten much worse since we started systems engineering, because SE revealed Green Sun as the best card in the deck with regards to hitting the multiple (otherwise unachievable) numbers required of interaction, CA, etc. With Green Sun being the best card, the deck shifted to more creature oriented than it traditionally has been in the past, which is great news for Miracles, in particular. Landstill isn't something that's seen very often, but can be very problematic when it shows up. A possible tension point of both decks is the appearance of UU: counterspell, alongside Snapcaster Mage. Another tension point is Jace, the Mind Sculptor backed with sweepers, counters, and removal. He is very, very hard to deal with in a deck that's set up to abuse him -- Shardless is a good example of a deck where Jace isn't actually a problem, on the other side of the coin.

Group C is an issue because they kill us before we can do much to them, again, barring some draws on our end. Every one of these decks can kill on turn 1/2 with good draws, with turn 2 being likely and turn 3 being all but guaranteed in a fishbowl. Our removal is irrelevant here, which admittedly is one of the strengths of the combo archetype, but is something to keep in mind. To be beaten, these decks need to be sideboarded heavily for, just because they're attacking on a completely different than we are.

Lands is a special case, I feel, in that it's both A and C. It goes bigger, faster, thanks to Exploration and Manabond. It's one of the most consistent decks in the format thanks to its 8 Life From the Loams (and 4 one-mana Demonic Tutors once Loam is established), and high number of cycling cards to attain velocity. But it's also C: it can make a Merit Lage on turn 1 and kill you on the swing. Luckily, that at least plays into our Path to Exiles -- but then they'll just make another one via Loam unless we have an active DRS or Ooze.

What this means is that we need the following categories of things:

Land interaction, somefuckinghow. From the Ashes is great, but I'm uneasy about splashing more red cards in white or blue lists. Armageddon is great, but hurts us every bit as badly as it hurts them, and even if we have Baneslayer or some such in play vs Lands, they can still topdeck a clean answer in the format of Maze of Ith. Furthermore, Lands at least has protection from Geddon by way of Mox Diamond (relevant for From the Ashes as well).

Possible solution: Fulminator Mage, especially with Meren and Sun Titan.

Noncreature threats, and/or more resilient creatures. Thragtusk might need to make a return, although Thrag was never really "great" vs Miracles so much as it annoyed them. Enchantments and artifacts are worse than planeswalkers due to Miracles favoring Wear//Tear out of the board vs us anyway, and also due to the growing prevalence of the stupid Nahiri builds. The best planeswalkers here are the bigwalkers -- Sorin and Elspeth Sun's Champ, Karn and Ugin. Nicol Motherfucking Bolas. Etc. Sorin and Elspeth can be counterbalanced if they leave them in, but a lot of Miracles players I've been facing lately have been sideboarding them out. Unfortunately, our mileage may vary. It's interesting to note that Miracles has been struggling with Eldrazi. It might behoove us to investigate the "why" of that, because on paper I'd think Miracles should be fine with that matchup.

Hooks and Needles: big, game-ending anti-combo lock pieces (Trinisphere, Nether Void, Arcane Laboratory, Canonist, Slaughter Games etc), backed up with quick, disruptive jabs -- discard, Thalia, Sphere/Thorn, etc. The best way to beat combo as Nic Fit is to follow this strategy. We want to disrupt them enough to slow them down to a reasonable turn number, and then land something devastating that they can't beat. High Tide gets very pissy about Slaughter Games, as does ANT...and Sneak/Show, and basically every other combo deck. Storm literally can't beat Nether Void, or not before we've beaten them, at any rate. Trinisphere is also great vs Storm and really grinds Omnitell's gears. And so on.

Graveyard hate is needed to some modest quantity. We're not looking for vintage dredge hate here, but we need ways to interact with Dark Depths once its made the 20/20 that we can hopefully solve. A modicum of graveyard hate improves a number of other matchups, and gives us something else to maybe hopefully do vs Reanimator, although that's likely still awful even with hate -- we'd need like Leyline of the Void to try to fix that.

Which conveniently segues me into my next point:

We should establish which decks are nonviable to actively try to beat.

For example, I'll bring in the two Surgicals from my board vs Reanimator, sure - I'd be crazy not to. But they're not THERE for Reanimator. They're there for Lands. I am of the opinion that Reanimator would take at least 5 sideboard slots, dedicated, mind, to bring that matchup up to 50/50. Something like 6-8 is likely required to give us a positive win% postboard. This is incredibly not worth it, in my opinion. Belcher is another example of this. You'd need to sideboard cards like Leyline of Sanctity and Mindbreak Trap to deal with Belcher effectively, and it's just flat not worth it. We need to accept that these landmines are just going to exist for us and hope that we don't run into them, and dedicate our sideboard to the things that we either CAN beat, or to overlap cards. For example, I kind of innovated Rakdos Charm in vintage because it is a split Dredge/Shops card, which ALSO happens to now splash on to Storm (Dark Petition didn't exist at Champs last year). That makes it a very, very good sideboard card, because it gives you a lot of extra room in your board while still helping you to check off the boxes you need. Slaughter Games is probably the closest analog in Nic Fit -- it comes in vs the slow control decks and the combo decks, serving double purpose as a right hook for combo and an effective threat that deals with otherwise hard to answer problems from control.

Now, as far as how many cards we want for each matchup / category type, that's not something I'm really going to be able to contribute. I think it has to come down to expected metagames -- how many times during the GP do we expect to play vs Miracles, for example, how many times vs Lands, how many times vs Storm, etc. Over a 14 round event I'd say probably something like 3, 2, 1 respectively, with the rest of the matches being Delver of various types, Shardless, and probably 3-4 more 1-of matches to things like Painter, Infect, other Nic Fit players, etc.

Something that's worth considering about that, as well, is what our /goals/ for the GP are. Are we planning on Day 2ing? Are we planning on top 16ing? Are we trying to take the whole thing down? I mean obviously playing to win, etc -- but keep in mind that aiming to take down the entire event has a slightly different sideboarding setup than if we're just aiming to make Day 2 and prey on Delver. For example, we probably need to board more heavily, or more severely, perhaps, for Miracles, if we're trying to place highly and not just make Day 2. This is because I would expect to face an increasing number of Miracles decks on Day 2 itself, as compared to Day 1. That means that we would end up having a more difficult road to Day 2, but would be better prepared once we're there. Just a couple of extra considerations.

Hope that helps.

Navsi

05-09-2016, 10:02 AM

Arianrhod

05-09-2016, 10:27 AM

Another thing to consider is that we need to be aware of the number of cards we have which must be sided out in certain matchups. In particular, the lists playing Thoughtseize, Unmaking and/or Truths maindeck need something they can side them into against decks where they are actively bad, like Delver and Burn, which we may not otherwise have any sideboard slots for, since those cards are actively bad there. This is less relevant against our traditionally bad matchups, since a) we are already planning to side things in there and b) if we leave some durdly creatures in, they can at least still present a clock - for a card to be completely irrelevant in a matchup it has to be a noncreature which reduces the number of times it comes up against the combo decks.

I think this is the big problem with playing Seize maindeck, since it eats up SB slots anyway in replacements for it against Delver.

To be fair, I'm still on the fence as to whether siding Thoughtseize in vs Delver is correct or not. On the surface it seems poor, but there are advantages -- most of Delver's cards will do more than 2 points of damage to you anyway, for one. Thoughtseizing away a Deathrite or a Lightning Bolt is still net saving life, and you get information. Sometimes you get to hit their Delver or their Gurmag, and answer a big problem -- other times, you hit a Force or a Stifle and you can execute your game plan, which as we all know, when we get to execute vs Delver, we basically just win. Stifle and Force are the only ways they can meaningfully interact with us, so taking those away is great.

However, there's also been plenty of times where Thoughtseize has been just kind of really junky against Delver. Obviously it's an atrocious topdeck after turn 3-4, and generally if they have any creature established in play, you don't want to play the card. God forbid they have a Deathrite and make you lose 4 life for your efforts.

Where I've kind of settled on Thoughtseize is that it's PROBABLY worth bringing it in on the play vs Delver, and immediately boarded out on the draw. Again, I'm far from certain about this, but that's what my instincts are telling me.

Navsi

05-09-2016, 10:49 AM

I don't like TS into Delver because it costs us mana and life, which are our big constraints there - we generally don't have so much trouble stabilizing if we can get to actually cast our cards, and the trade Seize gives isn't relevant to board position unless we cast it while the delver player has no threats on board, in which case most of our other cards are just as good. For clearing away their counters and so on, we are already playing 4 Therapy - I don't think playing 5+ interaction effects which don't actually help us deal with a threatening board position is safe.

ingenious28

05-09-2016, 11:07 AM

For those on the BUG varient, has anyone tried running a singleton Sidisi, Undead Vizier, and if so how have you found it?

GtF

05-09-2016, 11:26 AM

Jain_Mor

05-09-2016, 11:44 AM

@Navsi, I tend to have additional sweeper effects like Toxic Deluge and Engineered explosives for elves (which is s really hard matchup in my experience) and other creatures decks in the sideboard that switch one for one with the two main deck Thoughtsiezes and that's generally all the sideboarding you do.

If I didn't run main deck Thoughtseize I probably wouldn't sideboard at all. What do you sideboard out/in against delver?

Navsi

05-09-2016, 12:02 PM

I play a 2/2 Main/Side split with my Abrupt Decays, so that's two slots which replace Thoughtseize against delver variants and most other aggressive decks. At the moment I'm running 1 Zealous Persecution which would probably come in against most Delver builds as well, particularly ones running YP.

If I'm having to cut all 4 life costing spells (2 Thoughtseize, 1 Unmaking, 1 Truths) I'd probably put in 2 Decay, 1 ZP, 1 Reclamation sage - just for a Zenithable removal effect for Sulfuric Vortex if they're in red, or any equipment if they're in white. It's also just a blocker which is fine a lot of the time, and kills a lot of their unexpected spicy sideboard tech like Sylvan Library or whatever.

moseby

05-09-2016, 12:15 PM

Regarding those concerned with Post, MUD, and Land's match-ups. When I was playing junkfit I ran a single tagia in the main, and in the board had 3 blood moon's, and 3 slaughter games. It helps all those matches, unfortunately moon does nothing to help with miracles, though slaughter games certainly does. Someone posted a board similar to this sometime ago and I would definitely do it if I were to start playing junkfit again

Brael

05-09-2016, 12:26 PM

The first step would be to summarize what MUs trouble us and work out for each MU why it is such a problem. For this, we are not looking at our LGS but rather the current DTB section + known troublemakers.

The first thing I notice is that Miracles, ANT, D&T, S&T are all using our Vet's against us.

Arianrhod

05-09-2016, 12:32 PM

The first thing I notice is that Miracles, ANT, D&T, S&T are all using our Vet's against us.

I wouldn't consider DnT to be a problem matchup, although that might just be for me. I've only ever lost to the deck a handful of times, and I've had to play vs it a -lot-. Admittedly, my sweeper-heavy approach was likely much better vs that deck as compared to spot removal.

Miracles is still the only deck among these where I consider Veteran to be a drawback. Vs ANT and S&T, you shouldn't be cracking a Vet "just cause." You need to have something impactful to do with that mana, or else be stripping their hand. While they do derive value, the trick is that you need to use the immediate effect of the mana to do something backbreaking. You get to use the lands first (for sorcery speed spells), take advantage of it.

Brael

05-09-2016, 02:19 PM

I wouldn't consider DnT to be a problem matchup, although that might just be for me. I've only ever lost to the deck a handful of times, and I've had to play vs it a -lot-. Admittedly, my sweeper-heavy approach was likely much better vs that deck as compared to spot removal.

Miracles is still the only deck among these where I consider Veteran to be a drawback. Vs ANT and S&T, you shouldn't be cracking a Vet "just cause." You need to have something impactful to do with that mana, or else be stripping their hand. While they do derive value, the trick is that you need to use the immediate effect of the mana to do something backbreaking. You get to use the lands first (for sorcery speed spells), take advantage of it.

I wasn't trying to say that it's necessarily a problem matchup, but rather that a big pattern in the mentioned decks is that several of them are able to get value off of our Vet's which would suggest a plan for SB games.

I realize that we get the lands first but our curve tends to be higher so if they can use the lands it's a bigger tempo boost for the opponent even if we might get a more powerful card out of it.

slikwilly

05-09-2016, 07:34 PM

How's this deck positioned these days? I'm looking for a deck to take to Columbus and debating a move off of Esper Stoneblade in large part because I feel like access to Abrupt Decay is going to be something I'll want. It has been a couple years since I've played Nic Fit though. How's it stacking up? How is it against Eldrazi?

Noctalor

05-09-2016, 07:42 PM

I'm thinking of going to Columbus and playing BUG Pod again. It's been a little while since I've played the deck. Congrats on the finish Noctalor. I have some observations/questions.

Ophiomancer - this card looks sweet. I have played it in cube online and it was always great. I'll definitely be trying this out.
Red splash - How many times have you gotten color screwed by having this red splash? I tried out a white splash for Orzhov Pontiff a while ago (before they printed Minister of Pain) and the card was good but I also got stuck with it in my hand too much for my liking.
It is pretty cool that you can fetch Keranos out with Birthing Pod. Are the pyroblasts in the sideboard a good enough substitute for Force of Will against combo? I see you have duress as well.
It's also worth noting that they upgraded Envelop (Invasive Surgery) and we can turn on delirium quite easily with in this deck thanks to Baleful Strix.

What have you been playing against in these tournaments? What are your thoughts on the various matchups?

Thanks.

I tend to play red cards opnly in non wasteland MUs, the worst you can get is the mono waste from infect or some wasteland UWR deck, you can fetch safely a red source instead of the second black one in those mu, you can even cast murderous this way.
The worst of the slash is not being able to board pyros against shardless, the card is ofc good against both vision and jace, but we cant take the risk to get smashed by wasteland, red splash still nuts here since landing keranos is a free win.

Combo is pretty reasonable with 3 counters 3 duress 2/3 pyros 2 surgical 1 needle, i dont really like force here, we have few blue card and most of them are too valuable to be "wasted", people will play around force anyway most of the times giving us a turn to get our counter online, and our counter is fluster for this reason, people will go off protected expecting a force, so we will likely lose anyway having a single counter up, fluster should autowin couunter war early on and we can grind hard in the mid to late game in the combo MU so we should we good.
If you play invasive over fluster you will emprove the bad mu against scapeshift, miracle will improve but infect needs way more help than any fair MU, even not considering the problem with holding a single counter in the omnitell MU.
Surgery should probably be a go to if you dont go for the red splash.

In tournament my scores are 5/2, 6/3, 5/0/2, 4/1, nothing impressive but the deck is not so bad, you can easily stand a chance to top8 in a competitive enviroment.
Worst MUs are lands, eavy ramp strategy like post and combo decks, we can easily board against combo getting a pretty even MU, lands is a nightmare unless we get a lucky surgical asap, but i dont really feel like dedicating more than the solifuge to this mu, is important to note that the solifuge is here both to kill planeswalker and to ramp into keranos against active punishing fires.

We tend to win creature based MU, death and taxes is generally good unless the turn 1 mother into fast revoker on deed, eldrazi is pretty good unless we get rekt in the very early game.

So in the end, decent in fair MU with some really good ones like eldrazi and some disaster ones like lands, bad to decent against combo, decent against controls, way better than any other nic fit against miracle probably

Navsi

05-11-2016, 07:01 AM

Thinking about the Miracles matchup and the way we trade cards with them, I feel like the biggest problem we have is that we can't afford to trade 1 for 1 against them. They probably beat us in the card advantage department, with access to Counterbalance and Jace and Snapcaster. We also usually don't have enough threats to overwhelm them, since some percentage of our deck is going to be cards which don't generate a board presence, like Veteran Explorer. The thing I realised though is:

None of our actual threats force the deck to 2-for-1 itself.

There's Force, of course, but Force does get hardcast against us quite a lot. Otherwise, because of Terminus and Swords, the Miracles player very rarely has to 'trade down' which means they are highly unlikely to fall behind in card parity unless something goes wrong (Therapy crit, Meren survives for three turns, or whatever).

Is this something we can change? Obviously the big outlier here is Arianrhod's GBC Kozilek Nic Fit build, which has 5+ creatures which both demand an answer and generate Card Advantage immediately - Kozilek, Ulamog, and Thought-Knot, along with potential inclusions of Primeval Titan, Smasher, and Emrakul. Otherwise, there is Thragtusk, which does the job very effectively but also doesn't present a particularly scary clock (and costs 5) and finally Tireless Tracker, which I think might be our best bet here. Tracker threatens a lot of damage, but at the same time replaces himself at the very least, allowing us to potentially equalise or pull ahead in card advantage, even if the opponent has a Swords immediately. The other option I've been looking at is Sword of Fire And Ice, since it upgrades Veterans into actual threats and basically forces the deck to find Council's Judgment ASAP or have to deal with every creature we put on the board for the rest of the game.

Echelon

05-11-2016, 07:08 AM

Tracker replaces itself if played under the right circumstances.

You can approach this in 2 ways. Either we need to start 2-for-1'ing them a lot more or we need to play threats they can't answer, rendering their cards useless.

Let's assume for arguments sake that running a Taiga + SB Slaughter Games is no longer a valid strategy (nor is splashing any colour specifically for SB cards, for that matter). If it really was, I think we would have stopped looking for alternatives a long time ago (no offense).

I guess cards like Tsunami and Choke come to mind, letting us X-for-1 their manabase as do planeswalkers since neither StP or Terminus hit those.

On another note - this morning I came to the conclusion that mosts lists we do have problems with run basics (based off I believe Navsi's? observation) but also don't run Wasteland. This means one can safely fetch duals, which also means that in those MUs we might be able to board in Hymn to Tourach. Seems fine vs. ANT/TES and anyShow & Tell and at least lets us 2-for-1 Miracles a little bit. As long as you run enough fetches it's quite reasonable to get Bayou T1 and Scrubland T2 so you can cast anything from Hymn to Gaddock Teeg on just 2 lands.

rubblekill

05-11-2016, 08:48 AM

I have been seeing a lot more nic fit decks online lately, it is very nice! And the pilots I have talked to were always very talkative and open to feedback :D
By the way, today I have seen a guy on nic fit, he was against Eldrazi. Apparently he won the game out of nowhere casting a surprise PoP. Like, what?
Has PoP ever been suggested here? But when you think about it, the card helps in certain match ups like Lands, BUG and Eldrazi. All decks that gets obliterated by PoP. And it can't be chaliced out of the game (unlike path or ts).
Just for the sake of it I am trying 1-2 PoP in the side now, let's see how it plays out. Thoughts?

Echelon

05-11-2016, 08:50 AM

Has PoP ever been suggested here?

Yes. That crazy person was me. I was deemed crazy at the time.

This was before Eldrazi was a thing, mind you.

rubblekill

05-11-2016, 08:52 AM

Yes. That crazy person was me. I was deemed crazy at the time.

This was before Eldrazi was a thing, mind you.

It seems crazy, but I'm starting to think it is not that crazy. At least not Echelon-level crazy :D

Echelon

05-11-2016, 08:55 AM

It seems crazy, but I'm starting to think it is not that crazy. At least not Echelon-level crazy :D

Echelon-level crazy is running both PoP and Siege Rhino. Attacking is for pussies.

On a more serious note - seeing as we also run Eternal Witness and quite possibly Meren of Clan Nel Toth (and Diabolic Intent), a bit of PoP can go a long way.

I might be crazy but Veteran Explorer -> Diabolic Intent to Price of Progress -> (GSZ to) Eternal Witness into Price of Progress seems pretty sexy. Assembling Meren of Clan Nel Toth + Eternal Witness + Phyrexian Tower + Price of Progress (which can be done with a single Diabolic Intent!) is porn.

rubblekill

05-11-2016, 08:59 AM

Echelon-level crazy is running both PoP and Siege Rhino. Attacking is for pussies.

On a more serious note - seeing as we also run Eternal Witness and quite possibly Meren of Clan Nel Toth (and Diabolic Intent), a bit of PoP can go a long way.

Echelon-level crazy means only to indulge in that trashy fetish that is Fierce Empath + Karador :D

PoP makes sense in theory, I'll test and report back my results here.

Echelon

05-11-2016, 09:00 AM

Echelon-level crazy means only to indulge in that trashy fetish that is Fierce Empath + Karador :D

PoP makes sense in theory, I'll test and report back my results here.

Karador + Phyrexian Tower + Eternal Witness + PoP is sexy too and can also be assembled with a single Diabolic Intent... EDH-porn..?

rubblekill

05-11-2016, 09:09 AM

LoL this is hilarious

http://i.imgur.com/9J7jb2Y.jpg

Echelon

05-11-2016, 09:11 AM

It's beautiful and glorious!

How did you cast it though?

Also, this has given me some ideas. I'll work it out as a build tomorrow. Spoilers: Speed, PoPs, Diabolic Intents and recursion engines!

rubblekill

05-11-2016, 09:18 AM

It's beautiful and glorious!

How did you cast it though?

I won't hide the fact that this is a guy I was spectating. Infact he is the very same player that smashed the eldrazi deck I was referring to earlier. He kept up a fetch until the very last moment->crack the fetch->glory.
I will replace deluge with PoP, since PoP does better against the very same decks (except lands of course) I would have boarded in deluge AND at instant speed.

Navsi

05-11-2016, 09:24 AM

Do any of you think that it's possible to put together a more aggressive build running faster clocks that could complement Price more effectively? I could see it dealing 10+ frequently, but not actually killing just because the rest of our deck doesn't threaten life totals particularly quickly. Maybe a Jund build? I guess the nonbo that is Bloodbraid + Zenith/Explorer means we're lacking for a good midrange beater unless we want to try and run Reality Smasher. There's also Giant Solifuge which is a beating.

Edit: Dualcaster Mage saw a bit of play back when DTT and Cruise were all over, but he'd be pretty hilarious with more burn in the list.

rubblekill

05-11-2016, 09:31 AM

Navsi

05-11-2016, 10:07 AM

Just thinking that it's a lot more of a powerful play if we're already pressuring their life total in other ways.

Just put together something like this:

3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
8 Fetchland
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower

1 Dryad Arbor

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage

1 Giant Solifuge
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Huntmaster of the Fells

1 Dualcaster Mage

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Diabolic Intent

3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fireblast

Side:
2 Slaughter Games
2 Blood Moon
2 Price of Progress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Golgari Charm

A shell like this could be pretty good for Huntmaster, since having a large amount of instant speed burn / interaction makes passing turn and flipping Huntmaster significantly more attractive (as does Tireless Tracker).

Jain_Mor

05-11-2016, 10:17 AM

@Navsi, Do you keep vets in against miracles? I usually side them all out, but recently have been wondering about it.

@Everyone, how many vets / therapied do you keep in G2/3 against miracles?

square_two

05-11-2016, 10:32 AM

Just thinking that it's a lot more of a powerful play if we're already pressuring their life total in other ways.

Just put together something like this:

1 Dualcaster Mage

2 Fireblast

:eek:

Arianrhod

05-11-2016, 10:33 AM

I try to keep 0/0 postboard vs Miracles. At April's Mythic, I ended up leaving in Therapy vs my 2nd Miracles opponent, and boarded in Surgicals, because I didn't have Slaughters in the sideboard and tried to have a desperate "build-a-slaughter," basically. Therapy was distinctly mediocre postboard -- I did get to take away his Top g2 on the play, but then I drew another one halfway through the game when he had RIP out and was hellbent with a Top in play, and I was like, well, this is miserable.

PoP seems like entertaining tech, at least. I feel like it's something Matt should be working on, since he's played around with a lot of 4-color shells, either white jund or red junk. Rhino + PoP seems like an interesting direction to toy with. It still doesn't answer Miracles, but it does lock down some other matchups very convincingly.

Related topic: for red builds, Xenagos PW is worth considering, at least as a sideboard option. Spitting out a 2/2 haste satyr every turn is likely hell for Miracles.

Navsi

05-11-2016, 10:55 AM

Xenagod might not be bad either. He turns anything with 2+ power into a threat (also hilarious with Wolf Run) and is just as hard to remove, but zenithable.

emesyu

05-11-2016, 11:14 AM

I'm very interested in trying the PoP sideboard tech but while we're talking about spicy tech, I wanted to give a shout out to abeyance/Orim's chant again. For a deck like ours that is trying to survive to the late game, I feel like I've gotten huge tempo out of these effects outside of the obviously deeply satisfying deprivation of a miracles trigger or blanking suspended rift bolts/ancestral visions. I've even thought about trying to MB 2 of but would like to keep a couple in the SB at least

Tao

05-11-2016, 12:17 PM

blergh, misread, great 1000th post

Sergi

05-11-2016, 12:24 PM

Hi all,

This is the deck that I'm planning to play the next week:

Maindeck:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Eternal witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Huntmaster of the fells

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt decay
3 Perniciuos deed

4 Green sun's zenith
4 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal therapy
3 Sensei's divining top

3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Wastes
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig wolf run

61 Cards Total

Side:

3 Slaughter Games
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Price of progress
1 Volcanic fallout
2 Diabolic Edict
1 From the ashes

Some thoughts:
As a Eldrazi player I already thought in PoP against them(us), with all the ancient tomb and dismember their life goes down really fast.

I expect a some number of reanimate, and as I'm not in junk I put diabolic edict in SB (also for S&T and edrazi) 2 Ooze maindeck too.

3 Thought-Knot Seer maindeck are quite easy to cast with the number "colorless" of lands that I run (groves, wrun, tower and the extra wastes) and is surprisingly easy to cast turn 2 via veteran + tower. TKS also helps with combo and D&T (being colorless is a plus against Moms)

There are a couple of cards that I want to try in jund as mana sink such as:

Rakdos's Return (could be a finisher and helps against miracles)
Nylea, good of hunt ("only" 4 cmc that can be zenithed and lategame with Ptitan allow us to make 5/5 trample-veteran explorer. Usually againt white decks titan dies at first sight) Another aplication is that she remains in game against terminus.
Vigor (would replace titan and could help against Painters and also with only one Eldrazi that we could block is the game is ours - maybe 2 MD?)

The issue with Jund are long games and I try to find the way to close them faster, any advice will be appreciated.

Jain_Mor

05-11-2016, 01:42 PM

Are any of the Modo-ers thinking of entering in the Legacy challenge tournament thing on Saturday? I want to but I hvnt played the deck in 2 weeks and hvnt been playing this week because of severe jet lag. Haven't even played with tracker yet. Then again, might as well right?

rubblekill

05-11-2016, 01:55 PM

Ricardio

05-11-2016, 02:37 PM

In my experience, 3 punishing fires is enough and then you are at 60 ^_^

EDIT: Legacy Challenge - I may try to but I am not sure where I stand. I will have to look into it.

Brael

05-11-2016, 04:45 PM

It's beautiful and glorious!

How did you cast it though?

Also, this has given me some ideas. I'll work it out as a build tomorrow. Spoilers: Speed, PoPs, Diabolic Intents and recursion engines!

Work on a requirements doc for SB matches too. I've been working on my own, but lots of travel and little computer time has left me coming up short.

Plus, my default answer to almost every problem seems to be: "play more threats".

Brael

05-11-2016, 04:47 PM

Xenagod might not be bad either. He turns anything with 2+ power into a threat (also hilarious with Wolf Run) and is just as hard to remove, but zenithable.

I was trying this with my (failed) Jund list a few pages back. Xenagod seemed interesting. I might try it in Junk and use it as an excuse for Taiga. Xenagod is very good against Terminus and Jace.

Plm

05-12-2016, 12:42 AM

If you look for a threat in punishing fit, stormbreath dragon is the droid you are looking for.

hasty, pro removal, mana sink, fast clock , sadly non green.

Echelon

05-12-2016, 01:24 AM

Work on a requirements doc for SB matches too. I've been working on my own, but lots of travel and little computer time has left me coming up short.

Plus, my default answer to almost every problem seems to be: "play more threats".

I'll try. Your observation does mean there's some merit in the 4 PtE, 0 AD build and a lot of meat build I was (and still am) running.

Anyways. For Echelon-level crazy Jund Fit (read: NOT Punishing).
Creatures (13):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Instants/Sorceries (19):
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Price of Progress
3 Diabolic Intent

Artifacts (3):
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantments (3):
3 Pernicious Deed

Lands (22):
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Little bit of meat, lots of boom. The main objective here is to cast/loop a couple of Price of Progresses with the option to fall back on Stormbreath Dragon. Added in Volrath's Stronghold as a StP-proof way to make the loop. Diabolic Intent allows you to find any (and with some work all) pieces. Lots of fetches (and shuffle effects in general) and 3 SDT to help filter your draws/assemble the loop. It probably demands a radically different playstyle from its pilot than we're used to as normally we disrupt, establish and destroy rather than look to assemble an engine. It probably plays a lot like my old Summoner's Egg list, having to manoeuvre carefully before you go for it. Maybe we'd want to put a Banefire in there somewhere to deal with stuff that runs a lot of non-basics, I don't know. It'd be instead of a Stormbreath Dragon. Again, Diabolic Intent + SDT'd help find it.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 02:42 AM

So despite my jet lag delirium I entered a league last night and my first match was against miracles, my brain was not up for that challenge.. BUT what happened taught me a lot because I was winning all 3 games until I wasn't.

Game 1 Ewit and tracker drew me a bunch of cards, I did pop a vet because I had tracker out and he hadn't removed it yet but he did have the StP despite letting me get two clues already.. I was burying him in card advantage and had a tusk out as a threat with a Drs and Gsun zenith as back up in my hand. He entreats and I find deed with top to answer the Angels. However after some turns of snap caster STP and blocking I'm still winning but then he entreats again, GG

Game 2 I use TS to see his hand is bare bones and take a wear / tear so my SFM can do work. After trading a bunch in my favour, and casting painful truths I end up with a Gaddock teeg equipped with a SoFaI and an Abeyance in hand. GG

Game 3 I mulligan a no lander but recoup cards via Ewit and truths. Again I'm ahead after trades but he lands a moat so I don't bother casting my Thragtusk spend a turn digging and Gsun for Sigarda next turn with karakas to protect her. I know he has nothing in relevant in hand from thoughtisiezes and I'm definitely "winning" again, except I haven't found a needle, a teeg, a deed or an abeyance yet and eot entreats and kills me

So I was winning every game on every conventional metric, cards in hand, board presence, damage, knowledge of opponents hand except he instant speed summons lots of angels in three times between the two games I lose.

Conclusion: Cannot race entreat, have to answer it.
Loved Thoughtsieze.
Need more Deed (I was testing with two for the first time, don't like it already),
need more teeg (more aggressively searching, maybe play 2 like Matt),
need ways to protect teeg (SoLaS and Safekeeper),
seems like Sorin wouldn't have been relevant or necessary any of the games (as much as I love him),
surgical extraction was okay.
Need more Abeyance? (I always had mana open when he entreat, I play 2 and it's been a great timewalk against combo, maybe I'll try 3)
Or maybe we do need to supplement the above with Slaughter games...

I think I am going to enter the tournament on Saturday, so I'll be posting some sideboard ideas and lists today if people would be kind enough to give some criticism/thoughts

Echelon

05-12-2016, 02:55 AM

Conclusion: Cannot race entreat, have to answer it.
Loved Thoughtsieze.
Need more Deed (I was testing with two for the first time, don't like it already),
need more teeg (more aggressively searching, maybe play 2 like Matt),
need ways to protect teeg (SoLaS and Safekeeper),
seems like Sorin wouldn't have been relevant or necessary any of the games (as much as I love him),
surgical extraction was okay.
Need more Abeyance? (I always had mana open when he entreat, I play 2 and it's been a great timewalk against combo, maybe I'll try 3)
Or maybe we do need to supplement the above with Slaughter games...

I think I am going to enter the tournament on Saturday, so I'll be posting some sideboard ideas and lists today if people would be kind enough to give some criticism/thoughts

Some wonderful thoughts! Concerning your SBs and lists: Bring it!

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 03:47 AM

Navsi

05-12-2016, 03:52 AM

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 03:59 AM

If you've already hit a copy of the miracle card with Therapy or Thoughtseize, you can also let the Top resolve then respond to the Miracle trigger by extracting it, so you get to strip it from their hand and they have to shuffle their Top away. They also can't Brainstorm out of it that way.

Haha, yes, I'm aware of the dream scenario too. But stopping the first entreat is necessary / what I'm talking about.
But you're right, a good point to make.

rubblekill

05-12-2016, 04:16 AM

Oh another thought that I can't remember if it has been mentioned yet, but surgical extraction can be cast in response to miracles tapping their top, ruining their attempt at a miracle (unless they have it all with a BS in hand). I like the card a lot better now, even if it is a 1 for 0 (but so is the card pitched to FoW), but we need every edge we can get.

And this is the main reason I have come to the conclusion that Abeyance has no space in the sideboard. I mean, I like the card because I have played it, it has potential, but I really want to play more impactful hate cards (at the core: discard, surgical, Sgames, combo hate, 1-2 PW).

Surgical, as you said in the quoted post, seems to fill the role that is covered by abeyance, while being a multi purpose tool at our disposal that hits other strategies.

Tldr: I like abeyance but It's job against miracles (and storm to a lesser extent) is done by surgical already, the 76 is real packed and abeyance seems like a card that fills the 16-17th slots in the sideboard, if you know what I mean.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 05:09 AM

rubblekill

05-12-2016, 05:19 AM

@Rubblekill, I see what you're saying but I would never run more than two surgical extractions against miracles.. The card isn't good, it's just better than veteran explorer. I prefer abeyance to surgical against miracles, storm, elves and shardless. Hence I run a split.

But you're right space is tight and maybe the absolute answer of slaughter games is better than the tempo play of abeyance. I just really don't like playing a taiga. Could play Tiaga in the side, since we want more lands when we cut veteran explorer.. Or could run the mono black counterable version of the card in exchange for better mana against all matchups but with the risk the card gets countered (unlikely, though possible..)

Infact I play two SE. And the problem I was referring to is that I got not space for both SE AND abeyance (and 3 Sgames). In g2-3 the n1 goal is to survive until turn four to game them, and I think we have all come to the conclusion that games is a necessary evil. I also hate that taiga but games is necessary unfortunately.

Ralf

05-12-2016, 05:37 AM

And this is the main reason I have come to the conclusion that Abeyance has no space in the sideboard. I mean, I like the card because I have played it, it has potential, but I really want to play more impactful hate cards (at the core: discard, surgical, Sgames, combo hate, 1-2 PW).

Surgical, as you said in the quoted post, seems to fill the role that is covered by abeyance, while being a multi purpose tool at our disposal that hits other strategies.

Tldr: I like abeyance but It's job against miracles (and storm to a lesser extent) is done by surgical already, the 76 is real packed and abeyance seems like a card that fills the 16-17 slots in the sideboard, if you know what I mean.

If the assumption is "does it overlap with SE sometimes" ?
The answer is: "Yes, it has some overlap"

But, it does not mean overlapping is a bad thing.

SE CAN mess with a miracle trigger. But with SE + Abeyance, you will play SE/abeyance more aggressively against SCM shenanigans; and thus messing with their next best card in their deck.

Abeyance can also protect one of your key spell (preventing any counterspell from being played once resolved): like sticking a deed on the board.

In the "grand scheme of things", SE + Abeyance are just making games against Miracle faster and thus your match winnable.
SE, only, is already very nice but you will durdle far more and thus you will likely end up drawing the game.

@ Thread:

From my point of view, we are already "high" on the Legacy curve, so that, in my sense, we should not seek to keep the curve as high post board.

It means the following:

1) Against better control decks, we are not in the control seat and we should be the beatdown. 2 PW/2 SLG coming from the board will not help enough to win the match. Sure you'll have chances to take G2 but very likely you won't be able to finish G3. Why ? PW/SLG does not kill miracle fast enough. If you didn't scoop fast G1, there is a good chance that the miracle player will drag you into a draw.

2) Against combo deck, we are supposed to be in the control seat. But to really be in the control seat means that we have to interact with the stack or to lock the game, in some way. Nic Fit is already a sorcery speed deck and adding further sorcery spells demanding 4+ mana is clearly not where I want to be. G2 might be winnable because we are on the play. G3 is a really different story.
Interacting with the stack while not playing "blue" is really difficult, I acknowledge that. But overall, I think it would be harder to transform into a prison shell.

3) It's been 6 months (at least) since the last time I saw many lists playing Liliana. Wake up gentlemen... SHE is one of our best tool against other control decks and a very nice addition against combo decks. Why does she have disappeared from our tools ? Liliana + SDT is likely one of the most disgusting synergy we can offer to any opponent.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 05:55 AM

If I could scan my LotV into my computer and play them on modo I would... I draw the line a $90 cards on modo, so unfortunately she really isn't an option. I could buy her and then sell her back again at a $10 loss per card. But yea, I guess I can test her in paper when I can.

That said, in my experience playing Junk before nic fit, LotV really doesn't do much against miracles. She gets them hell bent like our discard currently does and then they either entreat anyway, cast a mentor and make a token, or you use her to kill a Jace or half of their 8 lands. Really not a big deal.

@Matt, you've also played s lot of junk and still post in the forum, what's your thoughts on Liliana against miracle?

Echelon

05-12-2016, 06:51 AM

@ Thread:

From my point of view, we are already "high" on the Legacy curve, so that, in my sense, we should not seek to keep the curve as high post board.

It means the following:

1) Against better control decks, we are not in the control seat and we should be the beatdown. 2 PW/2 SLG coming from the board will not help enough to win the match. Sure you'll have chances to take G2 but very likely you won't be able to finish G3. Why ? PW/SLG does not kill miracle fast enough. If you didn't scoop fast G1, there is a good chance that the miracle player will drag you into a draw.

2) Against combo deck, we are supposed to be in the control seat. But to really be in the control seat means that we have to interact with the stack or to lock the game, in some way. Nic Fit is already a sorcery speed deck and adding further sorcery spells demanding 4+ mana is clearly not where I want to be. G2 might be winnable because we are on the play. G3 is a really different story.
Interacting with the stack while not playing "blue" is really difficult, I acknowledge that. But overall, I think it would be harder to transform into a prison shell.

3) It's been 6 months (at least) since the last time I saw many lists playing Liliana. Wake up gentlemen... SHE is one of our best tool against other control decks and a very nice addition against combo decks. Why does she have disappeared from our tools ? Liliana + SDT is likely one of the most disgusting synergy we can offer to any opponent.

You come to valid conclusions, but I don't really see you presenting a solution here. I think it's safe to say we (as a community) won't be agreeing on LotV as answer to Miracles and vs. ANT/TES she's too slow. Building further on your premise, how would you want to attack this?

rubblekill

05-12-2016, 07:49 AM

If the assumption is "does it overlap with SE sometimes" ?
The answer is: "Yes, it has some overlap"

But, it does not mean overlapping is a bad thing.

SE CAN mess with a miracle trigger. But with SE + Abeyance, you will play SE/abeyance more aggressively against SCM shenanigans; and thus messing with their next best card in their deck.

Abeyance can also protect one of your key spell (preventing any counterspell from being played once resolved): like sticking a deed on the board.

In the "grand scheme of things", SE + Abeyance are just making games against Miracle faster and thus your match winnable.
SE, only, is already very nice but you will durdle far more and thus you will likely end up drawing the game.

@ Thread:

From my point of view, we are already "high" on the Legacy curve, so that, in my sense, we should not seek to keep the curve as high post board.

It means the following:

1) Against better control decks, we are not in the control seat and we should be the beatdown. 2 PW/2 SLG coming from the board will not help enough to win the match. Sure you'll have chances to take G2 but very likely you won't be able to finish G3. Why ? PW/SLG does not kill miracle fast enough. If you didn't scoop fast G1, there is a good chance that the miracle player will drag you into a draw.

2) Against combo deck, we are supposed to be in the control seat. But to really be in the control seat means that we have to interact with the stack or to lock the game, in some way. Nic Fit is already a sorcery speed deck and adding further sorcery spells demanding 4+ mana is clearly not where I want to be. G2 might be winnable because we are on the play. G3 is a really different story.
Interacting with the stack while not playing "blue" is really difficult, I acknowledge that. But overall, I think it would be harder to transform into a prison shell.

3) It's been 6 months (at least) since the last time I saw many lists playing Liliana. Wake up gentlemen... SHE is one of our best tool against other control decks and a very nice addition against combo decks. Why does she have disappeared from our tools ? Liliana + SDT is likely one of the most disgusting synergy we can offer to any opponent.

I understand your point, but my reasoning is: I like Games and SE better and before Abeyance. The overlap would not be a problem, heck it would be a bonus instead. I still like Abeyance for all the reasons you have listed, I am not denying the fact that the card plays well with other hate effects (like SE). I simply don't have space for more cards in my sideboard.
My plan in G2-3 against cancer.deck is "reach 4 mana asap and game their wincon", I often feel like I am in the one in the control seat while they durdle in the first turns with top and counterbalance, I won't play a rhino before a games if I can afford to do it; meanwhile abeyance is a 2 mana card that can be countered or balanced (just like SE). Imho games remains a necessary evil and has to be played at least as a 3-of, and this doesn't allow me to play abeyance AND games AND SE AND other stuff I feel I need.
So in conclusion I'm not saying you are wrong, instead I do even agree with most of what you have said. Only I have other priorities for my sb.
I have to agree with Echelon here: LotV is too slow in the matchups where she is needed and miracles float their key cards in the top 3. Instead of a 3 mana discard spell I'd rather play 1 cmc discard against them and choose the card to discard directly. And lili does not complement, in my opinion, the philosophy of this deck: EVERY card in our deck matters and is basically gas. I don't want to discard any of them.

Echelon

05-12-2016, 07:55 AM

And lili does not complement, in my opinion, the philosophy of this deck: EVERY card in our deck matters and is basically gas. I don't want to discard any of them.

Isn't that why we all pilot this deck? We love our cards too much to discard them and want to play them no matter what, be it SFM or Karador!

Anyways. People aren't satisfied with Slaughter Games, Abeyance and LotV for one reason or another so let go of those as possible solutions and let's see if we can Sherlock Holmes this shit.

I reckon Miracles and ANT/TES both are MUs where we'd like to board in 10 cards or so. That means that out of 15 available cards, at least 5 need to pull double duty vs. those decks.

Now I believe the general consensus for the Miracles MU is that we need more threats and that those threats must be incredibly hard to remove and that cards vs. ANT/TES cannot cost >2 mana b/c that makes them too slow.

This puts the basic requirements model for our SB at:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana

So... Who wants to start? I'm also looking for a way to describe requirements for a portion of the Miracles cards (something along the lines of threats may not be killable by StP/Terminus or something along those lines).

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 09:03 AM

Now I believe the general consensus for the Miracles MU is that we need more threats and that those threats must be incredibly hard to remove

That's not what we are saying at all. I was beating them down with main deck threats that were hard to remove while being up in cards all 3 games and I still lost two of them because of entreat. We need answers for their threats (unless you can think of a threat that is an answer for entreat?), there's no way we can go under them with just more threats.

I used to play humility + equipment as a sideboard plan against a lot of decks. It works against entreat as well, something to consider for those on SFM.

Echelon

05-12-2016, 09:06 AM

That's not what we are saying at all. I was beating them down with threats that were hard to remove and up in cards all 3 games and I still lost two of them because of entreat. We need answers for their threats (unless you can think of a threat that is an answer for entreat?), there's no way we can go under them with just more threats.

Have we ever tried?

Besides, I excluded it from the requirements for a reason. Give it a go. Saying "We can't" (right off the bat, mind you) has never solved shit.

rubblekill

05-12-2016, 09:15 AM

That's not what we are saying at all. I was beating them down with main deck threats that were hard to remove while being up in cards all 3 games and I still lost two of them because of entreat. We need answers for their threats (unless you can think of a threat that is an answer for entreat?), there's no way we can go under them with just more threats.

I used to play humility + equipment as a sideboard plan against a lot of decks. It works against entreat as well, something to consider for those on SFM.

Between Grip and 3 Deeds (and pulse theoretically) angels are not a problem usually. JTMS is. At least with how I play/how my deck is constructed.

Echelon

05-12-2016, 09:22 AM

Between Grip and 3 Deeds (and pulse theoretically) angels are not a problem usually. JTMS is. At least with how I play/how my deck is constructed.

It can be and variance is a thing, you know that. It's a valid point to want to address it.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 09:33 AM

Have we ever tried?

Besides, I excluded it from the requirements for a reason. Give it a go. Saying "We can't" (right off the bat, mind you) has never solved shit.

I'm confused. You said "the general consensus" was to add more threats post-board against miracles and used that as part of your requirements. I don't think that is the general consensus at all :/ By all means you can try it and make it one of your requirements, I don't think it's going to work since without any tempo plays they can just one for one you until they entreat or Jace, but that is neither here nor there, I was just addressing that you seemed to think more threats is the conclusion we have come to, when that isn't the case? We are talking about answers. I'm confused.

Navsi

05-12-2016, 09:49 AM

I'd add these as board conditions:

- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks
- Must have at least one way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments with cmc>3 post board

Putting these in just so we don't auto-lose to rogue decks because we can't kill a Smokestack or similar stuff post-board. Obviously a lot of our lists have a Reclamation Sage or QPM in the maindeck so it's not a problem, but it should probably be in the requirements.

For Miracles - I think Humility might be worth more of a look here. It's particularly relevant when combined with Sorin. I remember we discussed the possibility of running Elspeth (KE or 6CMC) in combination with Humility because she wins pretty well with it, but Sorin does basically the same thing but also kills Jace which is pretty big.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 09:54 AM

@Navsi, tbh I don't think you should be running unmaking specifically because you are siding it out against delver. There are painless options that are just as good that you could be playing instead that allow you to keep in more removal against delver, pulse, vindicate, council's judgment etc

Also, humility shuts down snapcaster, clique, entreat, mentor, venser, all of shardless's threats, tribal decks (merfolk, goblins, elves, eldrazi lol, D&T), reanimator, show n tell etc etc The problem with it being that you have to play equipment to break the symmetry. Also humility + engineered plague is a dream that has been realised a few times ha

EDIT: I typed miracles to begin with when I meant Delver -.- miracles on the brain.

Navsi

05-12-2016, 09:56 AM

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 10:14 AM

I was more referring to Painful Truths than Unmaking really, I consider most of the Vindicate variants relatively interchangable (I play Unmaking currently because my meta is light on delver and has quite a bit of Lands and Miracles).

Ah, I see, then I entirely agree :) though I don't mind a thoughtsieze or two against the non-burn builds

square_two

05-12-2016, 10:29 AM

I have been having good success against Miracles with both Gaddock Teeg and Sylvan Safekeeper in the board. Granted, I'm playing my wonky Chalice list, so I've got additional support to keep Teeg safe from StP. But still, getting those two out together is a sweet combo and is game over for Miracles. Teeg of course pulls double weight against storm.

I'm sure Teeg is already established in most sideboards, but do keep the Safekeeper in mind.

Qweerios

05-12-2016, 11:25 AM

rubblekill

05-12-2016, 11:34 AM

2-3 Chokes and 1-2 Needles have always been my answer of choice against Miracles. Non-creature permanents they have to answer makes them squirm. Lily is a another good one to have. In my latest Nic Fit lists I've always favored DRS>Explorer, Liliana>Deed, Truths>Top and SFM>random crap. Those changes tend to make a lot of matchups more favorable, including the dreaded Miracles and Elves matchup.

Wait a second, that deck is junk Dead guy ale: liliana sfm package drs. This is nic fit, it ain't got no 'random crap'.

square_two

05-12-2016, 11:41 AM

2-3 Chokes and 1-2 Needles have always been my answer of choice against Miracles. Non-creature permanents they have to answer makes them squirm. Lily is a another good one to have. In my latest Nic Fit lists I've always favored DRS>Explorer, Liliana>Deed, Truths>Top and SFM>random crap. Those changes tend to make a lot of matchups more favorable, including the dreaded Miracles and Elves matchup.

I have been using Tsunami's instead of Chokes for a while now. Also good against Shardless which can't answer it with an Abrupt Decay, which I really like. Even only putting only 2-3 Islands down the drain can make a huge difference.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 12:16 PM

Echelon

05-12-2016, 02:09 PM

I'm confused. You said "the general consensus" was to add more threats post-board against miracles and used that as part of your requirements. I don't think that is the general consensus at all :/ By all means you can try it and make it one of your requirements, I don't think it's going to work since without any tempo plays they can just one for one you until they entreat or Jace, but that is neither here nor there, I was just addressing that you seemed to think more threats is the conclusion we have come to, when that isn't the case? We are talking about answers. I'm confused.

Whatever man. Moving on. If you (or anyone else) want to add to the requirements model, just let me know.

Requirements model so far:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana
- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks
- Must have at least one way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments with cmc>3 post board

Once we round out our requirements model we'll start building example sideboards. I'm curious to see where this takes us. Maybe after this we want to revisit SE Fit to tighten that requirements model a bit (either Brael or Navsi mentioned it was a bit too loose. I agree, but there's only so much one can do on a public forum). It would be completely according to the SE methodology.

I skimmed through Chapin's book by the way - he describes even remotely close to what we're doing here. This is the place where SE, model based deck development started!

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 02:48 PM

Whatever man. Ok :/

Requirements model so far:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana
- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks
- Must have at least one way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments with cmc>3 post board

The last requirement, can that include maindeck vindicate effects, or are we talking Gsun target?

I question why it has to be at least 10 cards for ANT/TEST matchup. We aren't taking out our veteran exp/therapies (like miracles), just our paths/decays (deed and pulse are good) and a couple of top end / grindy cards. That's about 8 cards? So you'd need at least 8 in your sideboard, and that's enough cards to create our game plan of: shred their hand/deck/establish lock piece, win.

Other requirements, I can only speak for myself but these are effects I always try to have in my sideboard:

Always play at least two more sweeper effects that are cheaper than deed
(for all the creature decks, especially tribal)
Always play at least two grindy card advantage effects, ie draw spells or planeswalkers
(for midrange/control matches where you don't want therapy)
Always play at least two ways to interact with the graveyard for cheap
(For reani/dredge/lands etc)

Obviously the more effects the merrier, but two is my minimum

Arianrhod

05-12-2016, 03:02 PM

Miracles sideboards in 2 wear//tear against almost every match up at the moment, our chokes/needles are not safe unfortunately. I've seen miracles operate quite happily with basic plains, answering threats until they find their wear//tear. That said I try to overload wear//tear with equipment, needles and deeds. So I think of choke as more of a speed bump.

@Qweerios, I miss Junk sometimes. How are the shardless, delver and tribal matchups these days?

This is why I think planeswalkers are the best places to be looking. I'm still down with Pithing Needle because it has overlap against so many random and obnoxious things, but the bread and butter of an anti-miracles plan should be planeswalkers, I think.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 03:19 PM

This is why I think planeswalkers are the best places to be looking. I'm still down with Pithing Needle because it has overlap against so many random and obnoxious things, but the bread and butter of an anti-miracles plan should be planeswalkers, I think.

Agreed on needle, but this whole discussion started because I was professing merely having more resilient threats wasn't good enough, you still just die to entreat end of turn. Doesn't matter if you have three planeswalkers and a sigarda in play, if you can't answer an entreat you die :( 3 deeds isn't enough, you need more answers if you want to win it reliably.

Qweerios

05-12-2016, 03:20 PM

It is still Nic Fit if you play Explorer (even as a 1-2of) with Therapy and win with a GSZ into Sigarda. I simply abandoned Deed a long time ago as I find it too hefty and restrictive. Having 4 DRS, GSZ with Arbor and a SFM package into one of the best mana sink (Batterskull) is way more attractive to me. I also find Liliana and even Toxic Deluge to be more effective than Deed at what I need the card to do. Overall I have found these cards to make the deck faster (lower curve), more resilient (less dead/situational cards and more early interaction) and way more versatile (lots of GY hate, early tutoring, equipment package) while still being able to curve out with a single Rhino or Sigarda to go above most decks. Nic Fit is the best Junk deck I've piloted over the last 6 years. One of my favorite perks of this deck is how consistent it has been at getting Liliana on the board on T2. Attaching a Batterskull on a Sigarda is a close second though...

Choke vs. Tsunami. I've had someone recover with Miracles from 2 Tsunami in the same game and those 2 cards function very differently. First of all, Tsunami only works once, they won't extend into it again. Second, Choke in effect will deter your opponent from taping his Islands until he finds an answer, which is why multiple Choke is a massive headache. Lastly, the fact that Choke is a long lasting hindrance that requires a non-creature answer in a timely fashion is key. Miracle needs to Top and make land drops, Choke restricts topping and mana development as early as T2.

If you are scared of Wear // Tear you can always bring Stony Silence out of the board to complement Choke. I've had my Needle and my Choke/Library 2 for 1 by Wear // Tear before and it wasn't the end of the world. Just put yourself in the Miracle player's shoes for a second and think about how badly you want that Wear//Tear against a Choke or Needle, and then imagine both are in play.

@Jain_mor
Delver and Shardless have always been great matchups. As for Tribal, if you mean elves, then it isn't the greatest but it has always been so-so. SFM and Jitte are a big boon for this MU.

Jain_Mor

05-12-2016, 03:24 PM

@Qweerios, I'm glad you've popped in actually, I've been debating cutting deed for a long time, but I tend to find it winning me games where no other card would. Can you PM me your list? We think on similar wave lengths. Cheers.

Brael

05-12-2016, 04:23 PM

Isn't that why we all pilot this deck? We love our cards too much to discard them and want to play them no matter what, be it SFM or Karador!

Anyways. People aren't satisfied with Slaughter Games, Abeyance and LotV for one reason or another so let go of those as possible solutions and let's see if we can Sherlock Holmes this shit.

I reckon Miracles and ANT/TES both are MUs where we'd like to board in 10 cards or so. That means that out of 15 available cards, at least 5 need to pull double duty vs. those decks.

Now I believe the general consensus for the Miracles MU is that we need more threats and that those threats must be incredibly hard to remove and that cards vs. ANT/TES cannot cost >2 mana b/c that makes them too slow.

This puts the basic requirements model for our SB at:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana

So... Who wants to start? I'm also looking for a way to describe requirements for a portion of the Miracles cards (something along the lines of threats may not be killable by StP/Terminus or something along those lines).

How about Nevermore? Dies to deed, can be countered, but it comes down a turn earlier than Slaughter Games and is slightly less awkward on the mana since it's WW rather than RB.

Is it just no good because of Council's Judgment?

In a similar vein Memoricide and Stain the Mind are very similar to Slaughter Games without going into red. Being countered some percent of the time is probably worth the tradeoff of improving your mana.

I'm not quite sure how to build it but I still think Jund has a lot of potential. It's slightly worse against Junks good matchups, but it's much better against Junks bad matchups.

I skimmed through Chapin's book by the way - he describes even remotely close to what we're doing here. This is the place where SE, model based deck development started!

Which book did you skim? I swear I remember reading about it in one of them. I don't remember for certain if it was Magic or Deckbuilding but I'm guessing it was Magic since I never fully finished Deckbuilding as it got too repetitive.

Edit: Back on the Jund idea, or perhaps just splashing a Taiga, what about Thought Hemmorage instead? It helps our clock while accomplishing the same thing as Slaughter Games and combos pretty well with something like Cabal Therapy to not just know their hand so we strip a card, but Therapy clears the way of counterspells, then we can cash this in for extraction, discard, and damage.

Ralf

05-12-2016, 04:33 PM

@ Those looking for ideas:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=905974&viewfull=1#post905974

Navsi

05-12-2016, 05:37 PM

Brael

05-12-2016, 05:46 PM

I don't think Thought Hemorrhage is comparable to Slaughter Games. If we cast Slaughter and hit 1-2 copies in our opponent's hand, we're going to win that game with or without a couple free Bolts. The deck is generally based around answering our opponent's plan then making a game ending threat ourselves. Unless we are running other sources of burn and attrition damage, there isn't much point playing incidental damage. It doesn't matter particularly whether Sigarda kills in three turns or four when we have generally stabilised by that point anyway.

I don't know about that. Getting a couple cards out of my opponents hand is nice, but I've certainly had games where my clock is anemic enough that I've lost after getting several cards out of their hand. Certain matchups like Shardless and Delver can be won along a traditional axis of card advantage and threats. That's not what beats Miracles though, against them you need disruption combined with a clock. It's pretty easy to beat Miracles in CA for the entire game, but they can still win depending on their build. The Entreat builds especially have the ability to just turn a game around out of nowhere.

Also, a turn 12 Slaughter Games is pretty useless, a turn 12 card that can be converted into 3 damage though? Not as useless. It extracts Jace or depending on their hand it kills Jace and takes something else.

Vestige

05-12-2016, 10:24 PM

Yo dudes,

Sorry to interrupt the SB development discussion. I am just looking for an opinion here on some additional sideboard tech. I've got a Thorn of Amethyst in my board that I don't think I really need because storm isn't a deck that I will ever face ever. I am looking to up my game against miracles by throwing in a walker that they won't be able to deal with but is also not Liliana of the veil because dollars. So right now i'm thinking of adding either Ob Nixilis Reignited or Garruk Apex Predator. Pros: Ob has an ultimate that they cannot beat, and he'll get there pretty easily. Drawing cards doesn't hurt either. Garruk kills their jace, end of discussion. Also costs seven and cannot (I believe) be counterbalanced. Cons: Ob gets counterbalanced, which is obviously a problem, and also isn't terribly impactful before he ultimates. Garruk costs 7 mana and relies on creatures to win, which could be an issue. Also the creatures do nothing against angel tokens.

So either of these dudes could work out to help beat miracles, but I'm not sure which one i'd go with. So could someone point me in the right direction here, either by telling me which walker is better, or by explaining how this choice isn't a good one at all because it's, I don't know, too narrow or whatever? and if this is the case, what is one card that I can use to improve my miracles matchup? I realise that that's probably just the discussion going on right now and I should probably just wait for y'all more experienced folks to work it out, but hey, may as well ask.

Thanks for any insight here.

TTX

05-12-2016, 10:32 PM

Vestige

05-13-2016, 01:03 AM

Garruk Relentless or Sorin, Grim Nemesis are your best planeswalker choices. Some people have advocated Sorin Lord of Innistrad, and I played with Vraska the Unseen as a sideboard threat against Miracles. Ob Nixilis Reignited is definitely good, but I'd so go with Sorin GN, he's just better. Apex Predator is awesome, he is on the expensive side, but a deck can definitely be built to accommodate it, he produces a 3/3 every turn, Terminus is not that great...

I've already got a flip garruk, which is probably another argument against apex predator. And I totally forgot that there's white walkers other than ajani and elspeth, so Sorin would probably be a good fit once I can get my hands on one.

Echelon

05-13-2016, 01:12 AM

Ok :/

The last requirement, can that include maindeck vindicate effects, or are we talking Gsun target?

I question why it has to be at least 10 cards for ANT/TEST matchup. We aren't taking out our veteran exp/therapies (like miracles), just our paths/decays (deed and pulse are good) and a couple of top end / grindy cards. That's about 8 cards? So you'd need at least 8 in your sideboard, and that's enough cards to create our game plan of: shred their hand/deck/establish lock piece, win.

Other requirements, I can only speak for myself but these are effects I always try to have in my sideboard:

Always play at least two more sweeper effects that are cheaper than deed
(for all the creature decks, especially tribal)
Always play at least two grindy card advantage effects, ie draw spells or planeswalkers
(for midrange/control matches where you don't want therapy)
Always play at least two ways to interact with the graveyard for cheap
(For reani/dredge/lands etc)

Obviously the more effects the merrier, but two is my minimum

Since it's safe to assume that the MD runs GSZ I'd say for that last requirement, for consistency's sake, it should be a GSZ'able target. This requirement may be ignored if the maindeck already includes such a target.

Why the 10 cards? Because I like to push the boundaries of what we think we can do.

As for the requirements: You're really pushing the SB in a certain direction there (i.e. to what we always do). It's fine to want those, but I think it's best to consider them nice-to-haves for the time being. As such, I will include them in our requirements model.

Could you define more clearly what you consider grindy CA cards? Currently there's a lot of room for interpretation and I have the feeling that's not what you're aiming for.

Which book did you skim? I swear I remember reading about it in one of them. I don't remember for certain if it was Magic or Deckbuilding but I'm guessing it was Magic since I never fully finished Deckbuilding as it got too repetitive.

The deckbuilding one. It seems we're breaking new (or rather undocumented) ground with this approach.

Our updated requirements model:
- Cards used during the ANT/TES MU may not cost >2 mana
- At least 10 cards must have value for the Miracles MU
- At least 10 cards must have value for the ANT/TES MU
- Card selections must be done under the assumption there is no access to red or blue mana
- Must have at least one GSZ'able way of dealing with artifacts and enchantments with CM >3 post board. This requirement may be dropped if it is fulfilled by the MB

Nice-to-haves:
- Must have at least two sweeper effects that are cheaper than Deed
- Must have at least two grindy CA, i.e. draw spells or planeswalkers (Under revision)
- Must have at least two cards to interact with the graveyard that cost <= 2 mana
- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks

Brael

05-13-2016, 01:39 AM

- Must have a SB replacement for cards which cost life against Delver/aggressive decks

I think this one is a bit looser than that. I've used Bob successfully against Delver but most of my cards gain life. My average cost is something like 1.67, but after lifegain is included it averages at 1.22, and after I can start manipulating with Top it drops even further (how far it drops depends on if there's also a Courser out).

Echelon

05-13-2016, 02:00 AM

@Brael: I moved it to Nice-to-haves for a reason :wink:. I'm also under the impression it isn't really needed (I like to make sure I can get some form of lifegain from GSZ X = 1 through 4) but others feel differently, which is reason enough for me to take it seriously. It's just probably not a requirement that is solved by the SB itself but by the SB'ing tables we'll have to come up with at some point.

rubblekill

05-13-2016, 03:14 AM

Echelon

05-13-2016, 03:17 AM

Just for my own curiosity, 1) how good has Tracker been for its advocates?
2) in what situation do you play him against each deck?
3) is it a (good but) situational card just like Nissa has proved to be? (This is what I think at the moment)

I admit that I am a boring person and that I often am narrow minded, and that is the reason I am asking, to broaden my orizons: I need to break my way of thinking, that is "Give me a good and valid reason to GSZ for this card instead of Rhino (or Sigarda)".
At the moment this way of reasoning has its only exceptions in card like witness (instant value, can instantly win the game) or teeg (hate-lock piece needed to avoid death the following turn) or Drs and ooze (hate piece against gy strategies).

That reason often'll be:
- I don't have enough mana to GSZ for Rhino/Sigarda and I want to start pressing advantage now
- I have a fetchland in my hand and want to stock up on some gas
- I want to get this GSZ through that Daze my opponent is holding
- I suspect my opponent will FoW my GSZ if I cast it for Rhino/Sigarda so let's try X = 3
- I want to protect another card in my hand from their removal and preferably want to get something out of the exchange
- YOLO

rubblekill

05-13-2016, 03:19 AM

That reason often'll be:
- I don't have enough mana to GSZ for Rhino/Sigarda and I want to start pressing advantage now
- I want to get this GSZ through that Daze my opponent is holding
- I suspect my opponent will FoW my GSZ if I cast it for Rhino/Sigarda so let's try X = 3
- I want to protect another card in my hand from their removal and preferably want to get something out of the exchange
- YOLO

Sounds right, thanks. I'll take note of this

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 03:19 AM

As for the requirements: You're really pushing the SB in a certain direction there (i.e. to what we always do). It's fine to want those, but I think it's best to consider them nice-to-haves for the time being. As such, I will include them in our requirements model
If that's the case, then I'm not sure what you're asking for. How is "need at least 10 cards for Storm" not pushing the SB in a certain direction? or "must have a card that answers cmc>3 enchantmens"? Are creature decks and graveyard decks not significant decks in the metagame we need to be prepared for, like Storm and enchantments cmc>3?

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not angry or having a go. I just must be clearly misunderstanding you, and I want to understand. I'm confused. Why is 10 cards for storm a must have, but two cards for graveyard decks nice to have? What kind of other requirements are you looking for?

Always play at least two grindy card advantage effects, ie draw spells or planeswalkers

Could you define more clearly what you consider grindy CA cards? Currently there's a lot of room for interpretation and I have the feeling that's not what you're aiming for.

Draw spells or planeswalkers. Cards that are usually immune to creature removal that draw you more cards or give you continuous card like effects. Things that aren't answered by bolt, StP, decay, terminus or our own deeds. I can't really think of any enchantments/atifacts/creatures that fit that description, and mass removal spells don't draw you more cards or give you continuous effects, so I just shorthand to draw spells or planeswalkers. Maybe thats too narrow thinking for you though, so I just wrote "grindy card advantage effects" in case you objected :P

@Rubblekill, yea tracker has done its job very well for me so far, being a gsun target that can draw 4+ cards where a rhino would draw none. Whether thats an effect you think the deck needs is a different question :)

Echelon

05-13-2016, 03:32 AM

If that's the case, then I'm not sure what you're asking for. How is "need at least 10 cards for Storm" not pushing the SB in a certain direction? or "must have a card that answers cmc>3 enchantmens"? Are creature decks and graveyard decks not significant decks in the metagame we need to be prepared for, like Storm and enchantments cmc>3?

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not angry or having a go. I just must be clearly misunderstanding you, and I want to understand. I'm confused. Why is 10 cards for storm a must have, but two cards for graveyard decks nice to have? What kind of other requirements are you looking for?

Draw spells or planeswalkers. Cards that are usually immune to creature removal that draw you more cards or give you continuous card like effects. Things that aren't answered by bolt, StP, decay, terminus or our own deeds. I can't really think of any enchantments/atifacts/creatures that fit that description, and I mass removal spells don't draw you more cards or give you continuous effects, so I just shorthand to draw spells or planeswalkers. Maybe thats too narrow thinking for you though, so I just wrote "grindy card advantage effects" in case you objected :P

It's fine, I know you're not having a go or anything :smile:. The differense you ask about is rather subtle. 10 cards for the Storm MU said nothing of what the cards specifically should do, there are plenty of ways to fuck with Storm and all are valid as long as they meet that criterium. Under this requirement even Wasteland is a valid option, for example. And Storm really is a big, giant problem. We often maindeck some tools to battle creature and graveyard decks. Dredge for example already is pretty even G1 since we tend to run DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Pernicious Deed, sacrifice effects and PtEs (exile their Ichorids before they enter their main phase and watch the deck fall apart). Even Cabal Therapy on either LED or Breakthrough is a valid play. Not all MUs're 50/50 or better, but few are as bad as Storm and even less are as hated as Miracles. Besides, thorough GY hate can be considered as anti-Storm card, so it's not that you can't run it. I just want to focus more on "What fucks with Storm" and less on "What fucks with a GY, b/c fuck graveyards". We might come up with exactly the same SB, but with a different mindset.

The main reason I accepted the must kill enchantments/artifacts > 3 mana requirement is b/c it is a card that will also surely see play vs. Miracles. I know it says "Thou shalt play at least 1 Qasali Pridemage or Reclamation Sage in your 75" :wink:.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 03:49 AM

Echelon

05-13-2016, 04:06 AM

Oh so your aim for your requirements was specifically for miracles and storm? I didn't realise that. I think that's off for two reasons:

1) because you still need cards for other matches? Why not change my points to "2 cards for graveyard decks", "2 cards for creature decks". Its a given that those cards might (will) overlap, just like you said the miracles and storm cards will overlap.

2) Also I don't understand why you're worried about storm so much. I've never been a dog against storm. I've always found the match up to be 50/50 and don't really need to revolutionise my sidebaord plan to "fix" it. The plan being, abundance of 1 cmc discard, Gsun into teeg, backed up by minor lock pieces like extractions, other hate bears and sweepers for their backup goblins plan. I play against storm regularly online and have a good friend who pilots both versions.

I didn't realise other people were having such trouble with it. Is it really a big problem here for everyone? Maybe because your curves are higher, and you run less discard?

Edit: just checked my notes and I haven't lost to it online, but I'll still call it 50/50 because my notes only cover recently.

Some people struggle with Shardless BUG, others find Grixis Delver difficult, ANT/TES is my nemesis (partly b/c one of the worlds best Storm pilots just happens to frequent our LGS and also helps other Storm pilots there hone their skills). My record vs. that archetype is truly beyond dreadful. And I run the same amount of discard as anybody else. I've only recently acquired my Canonists though, so that might help the next time I face ANT/TES. Mind you, I've managed to lose after opening with T1 DRS followed up by T2 Surgical his cantrip (to look at his hand), Therapy on Infernal Tutor, flashback Therapy on Chain of Vapor, Gaddock Teeg (yes, that was my T2).

I guess the focus on those 2 particular MUs is b/c those are the ones I want to improve most and b/c there are very few other things I fear to face (ergo don't want to spend specific sideboard slots on. I'm fine with just having splash damage for those MUs). But just trust me on this one - the demanded overlap in the current requirements model is quite likely to fill in the nice-to-haves automatically.

rubblekill

05-13-2016, 04:07 AM

Echelon

05-13-2016, 04:10 AM

Against storm I board in: teeg, 2x canonist, 1-2 discard spells (depends on how many ts i play main, usually 1-2 for a 3 ts total in g2-3), 2x surgical, 3 games.

If we count games as dedicated storm hate i board in 9-10 cards.
Do I pass the exam echelon?

With a gold star, good sir!

Before I had my Canonists I boarded in Teeg, 3 Duress, 2 Surgical Extraction, 1 Rest in Peace and 2 Golgari Charm. It just wouldn't do.

Next time (based on my current SB) I'll probably board in Gaddock Teeg, 2 Canonist, 3 Duress, 2 Surgical Extraction and 2 Golgari Charm. If that doesn't do it I'm bringing lighter fluid and a match as my next SB.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 04:17 AM

Some people struggle with Shardless BUG, others find Grixis Delver difficult, ANT/TES is my nemesis (partly b/c one of the worlds best Storm pilots just happens to frequent our LGS and also helps other Storm pilots there hone their skills). My record vs. that archetype is truly beyond dreadful. And I run the same amount of discard as anybody else. I've only recently acquired my Canonists though, so that might help the next time I face ANT/TES. Mind you, I've managed to lose after opening with T1 DRS followed up by T2 Surgical his cantrip (to look at his hand), Therapy on Infernal Tutor, flashback Therapy on Chain of Vapor, Gaddock Teeg (yes, that was my T2).

I guess the focus on those 2 particular MUs is b/c those are the ones I want to improve most and b/c there are very few other things I fear to face (ergo don't want to spend specific sideboard slots on. I'm fine with just having splash damage for those MUs). But just trust me on this one - the demanded overlap in the current requirements model is quite likely to fill in the nice-to-haves automatically.

I seeeeee, I didn't realise this process was so focused on your experiences :P I also disagree that cards in the storm matchup can not be 3 cmc simply because you will end up boarding in 3 cmc sweepers that answer goblin tokens to completely nullify one aspect of their strategy. But I guess ignoring those two outlying slots, cmc 2 or less is a good rule of thumb.

Also I thought the point of adding more requirements was to narrow us down to cards that can then only fit those requirements? Otherwise, I don't think anyone can think of any more requirements so we should move on to the next step?

Echelon

05-13-2016, 04:33 AM

I seeeeee, I didn't realise this process was so focused on your experiences :P I also disagree that cards in the storm matchup can not be 3 cmc simply because you will end up boarding in 3 cmc sweepers that answer goblin tokens to completely nullify one aspect of their strategy. But I guess ignoring those two outlying slots, cmc 2 or less is a good rule of thumb.

Also I thought the point of adding more requirements was to narrow us down to cards that can then only fit those requirements? Otherwise, I don't think anyone can think of any more requirements so we should move on to the next step?

There're also 2 CMC sweepers that do the same and also have function in the Miracles MU :wink:.

The point of adding more requirements was to narrow down what functions we want a set of cards to fulfill, not to narrow down what cards we want to run :smile:. We want to narrow down those functions as much as possible while putting as few restrictions as possible on the cards we use to perform those functions. SE boils down to specifying what functions a solution should be able to perform without specifying what the solution should be (let this one sink in for a second).

I'm fine with moving this to the next step.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 04:46 AM

There're also 2 CMC sweepers that do the same and also have function in the Miracles MU :wink:.

The point of adding more requirements was to narrow down what functions we want a set of cards to fulfill, not to narrow down what cards we want to run :smile:. We want to narrow down those functions as much as possible while putting as few restrictions as possible on the cards we use to perform those functions. SE boils down to specifying what functions a solution should be able to perform without specifying what the solution should be.

I'm fine with moving this to the next step.

Golgari charm isn't good against miracles (if only terminus said destroy instead of tuck :( . Savvy players side our their counterbalances, and it's not like we need more answer to balance between decay, deed and our Gsun enchantment hate target. Also golgari charm doesn't kill flipped delvers, drs, most eldrazi etc etc.

And I guess I still don't get it then. Should our sideboard solution not function against graveyard decks, creature decks and midrange decks? Is that not a requirement of our sideboard solution? If you are only building a sideboard to deal with Miracles and storm, then I guess I'm not interested and will bow out of this particular discussion.

Echelon

05-13-2016, 04:51 AM

And I guess I still don't get it then. Should our sideboard solution not function against graveyard decks, creature decks and midrange decks? If you are only building a sideboard to deal with Miracles and storm, then I guess I'm not interested and will bow out of this particular discussion.

I'm not saying it shouldn't function vs. those decks, I'm saying that those decks will likely get enough splash damage from the set requirements to fullfill the nice-to-haves (that include those decks) and I'm not including them as hard requirements to prevent us from spending too many SB slots on already at least 50/50 MUs.

Am I making any sense?

As for Golgari Charm - its value is dependant of your opponent as far as the Miracles MU is concerned. As for Delver and DRS - I don't care about those and sure as hell don't feel the need to board in more answers vs. those things. Resolve a Rhino (or two) or your own DRS/Scavenging Ooze and ignore those things. As for Eldrazi - is paying 5 life to get rid of something that just smacked you in the face for 5 damage really where you want to be..? Life is a resource, but that way you run out of it really quick.

dte

05-13-2016, 05:06 AM

Mind you, I've managed to lose after opening with T1 DRS followed up by T2 Surgical his cantrip (to look at his hand), Therapy on Infernal Tutor, flashback Therapy on Chain of Vapor, Gaddock Teeg (yes, that was my T2).

Here it seems that you didn't lose by lack of cards against storm, but by misplaying them.
Starting with surgical may be OKish, but not great. I assume you were OTP? Was the cantrip preordain (in which case I believe it was a misplay to surgical it), or a ponder (in which case it is a good play to surgical it, but only if they did not shuffle)? If it was a BS, the only reason I can see for an ANT player to cast on their turn a T1 BS is to kill t1, and you can immediately name LED, saving your SE.

But the real misplay here is to flashback this therapy. You had an excellent grave control with SE + DRS, and you lose it all. You also lose half of your clock. Was there something threatening in the hand? If yes, flashbacking on it could be a better idea. If not, why not just use Teeg + DRS to put a clock while shrinking the grave, and flashback it a couple of turns later?

Echelon

05-13-2016, 05:16 AM

Here it seems that you didn't lose by lack of cards against storm, but by misplaying them.
Starting with surgical may be OKish, but not great. I assume you were OTP? Was the cantrip preordain (in which case I believe it was a misplay to surgical it), or a ponder (in which case it is a good play to surgical it, but only if they did not shuffle)? If it was a BS, the only reason I can see for an ANT player to cast on their turn a T1 BS is to kill t1, and you can immediately name LED, saving your SE.

But the real misplay here is to flashback this therapy. You had an excellent grave control with SE + DRS, and you lose it all. You also lose half of your clock. Was there something threatening in the hand? If yes, flashbacking on it could be a better idea. If not, why not just use Teeg + DRS to put a clock while shrinking the grave, and flashback it a couple of turns later?

It was a Preordain, I wasn't particularly happy about it either. I had to flashback Therapy then and there, he had both the Tutor and a way to get rid of Teeg (the Chain of Vapor) in hand with a bunch of gas to back it all up.

I fell for the old Cabal Therapy trap - I forgot it's OK to miss when you name the card you fear most since that means they don't have it either way. On a blind Therapy I would've named Infernal Tutor anyway. Anyways - the Storm pilot in question came up with an even more beautiful solution. I also had 3 GSZ in my hand at the time so after the T1 DRS I should have cast GSZ for X = 1, get Veteran Explorer, cast and flashbacked Therapy, Surgicaled his Infernal Tutor and dropped Teeg with the lands from Veteran Explorer. Oh, hindsight. It was a good learning experience.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 05:27 AM

I'm not saying it shouldn't function vs. those decks, I'm saying that those decks will likely get enough splash damage from the set requirements to fullfill the nice-to-haves (that include those decks) and I'm not including them as hard requirements to prevent us from spending too many SB slots on already at least 50/50 MUs.

Am I making any sense?

From my understanding of magic theory written in many articles/books/podcasts, it's usually better to spend a few slots in your sideboard to up the 50/50 matchups than to dedicate many slots against decks you are a dog against. I think people have even done some math on it, google: science of sideboarding. I guess we shall agree to disagree and let you move on with your process.

Regarding deluge/charm... you use it on the little guys (mimic, small endless ones, reshaper, displacer, revoker etc) so you can save your targeted stuff for the 4/4s and 5/5s, but yes in dire straits it can get the big guys too. ie, options/influence where golgari charm would have none. Same applies to the tribal decks where charm doesn't kill much. Securing 50/50 matchups. There are other reasons too, like midrange, but I guess again we can agree to disagree and move on.

Edit: Regarding your storm matchup, I guess I have to question your opinion on the matchup if you're supporting your argument with examples of clear misplays :/

Edit 2: I'm just going to stop haha, apologies, you keep doing what it is you want to do, and I'll avoid the criticisms otherwise we will be here all day.

Echelon

05-13-2016, 05:33 AM

Edit: Regarding your storm matchup, I guess I have to question your opinion on the matchup if you're supporting your argument with examples of clear misplays :/

Edit 2: I'm just going to stop haha, apologies, you keep doing what it is you want to do, and I'll avoid the criticisms otherwise we will be here all day.

I can hate it b/c I suck at it, lol! Maybe I'll just make a SB consisting of 4 Orim's Chant, 4 Silence, 4 Mindbreak Trap and 3 other cards and then face anyDelver.dec all day long. Or, you know, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Duress, 4 Hymn to Tourach and whatever tickles my fancy.

I'm perfectly fine with your criticisms, feel free to continue good sir.

Concerning the SB stuff - it'll work out in the end, just bare with me :smile:.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 05:48 AM

Echelon

05-13-2016, 06:10 AM

Okay, cool.

I guess what I'm driving at is that the SE fit build was designed from the bottom up as a general all purpose new look at the deck for everyone to learn from.

For this sideboard you seem to be building it entirely for yourself and based on your own experiences. That's not much useful for the rest of us. Maybe it will in the end, but it isnt from your starting objectives, which is unlike the SE main deck build. Hence the confusion.

I get your point.

I want to keep the SE SB as simple as possible. When you try and expand it to address every MU known to man we'll either start fumbling on "But it can't be done" or the complexity becomes bigger than the attention span the average forum can hold and it all falls down to people blasting through the entire process in a single post (as happened earlier this week).

On one hand this SB addresses a couple of MUs I hate but at the same time do I rarely run into those MUs (especially since some people in the LGS might be on Eldrazi right now to push those decks out even further) so what do I really gain from it? Heck, that's probably a good part of my problem. I don't face them enough to learn how to properly deal with them. I guess I'll have to convince my usual punching bag to switch from Grixis Delver to ANT/TES/Miracles.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 06:36 AM

Okay, continue with your process then.

I'll be posting a list or two with a complete sideboard and plans later today for the modo challenge tomorrow (I'm saying this now so I'll actually do it)

Unrelated but funny note - I beat Belcher last night 2-0 without casting a single spell. G1 he keeps a 7 card hand and plays 3 GProbes T1 and misses one mana short to cast Empty with his burning wish and scoops. G2 he keeps 7 card hand, probes me and sees 2 TS 2 Therapy 2 lands and a pithing needle and scoops because he can't go off until T2 XD

Echelon

05-13-2016, 06:38 AM

Unrelated but funny note - I beat Belcher last night 2-0 without casting a single spell. G1 he keeps a 7 card hand and plays 3 GProbes T1 and misses one mana short to cast Empty with his burning wish and scoops. G2 he keeps 7 card hand, probes me and sees 2 TS 2 Therapy 2 lands and a pithing needle and scoops because he can't go off until T2 XD

That's how I normally beat ANT/TES - they Ad Nauseum themselves to death.

dte

05-13-2016, 07:12 AM

It was a Preordain, I wasn't particularly happy about it either. I had to flashback Therapy then and there, he had both the Tutor and a way to get rid of Teeg (the Chain of Vapor) in hand with a bunch of gas to back it all up.

I fell for the old Cabal Therapy trap - I forgot it's OK to miss when you name the card you fear most since that means they don't have it either way. On a blind Therapy I would've named Infernal Tutor anyway. Anyways - the Storm pilot in question came up with an even more beautiful solution. I also had 3 GSZ in my hand at the time so after the T1 DRS I should have cast GSZ for X = 1, get Veteran Explorer, cast and flashbacked Therapy, Surgicaled his Infernal Tutor and dropped Teeg with the lands from Veteran Explorer. Oh, hindsight. It was a good learning experience.

On the preordain, did (s)he keep both cards?

Otherwise what you propose here would have been an even worst misplay. you should not give two additional mana to storm, it is like giving them a dark ritual.
Additionally, with this line of play, you lock yourself, putting them only in a 5 turn clock with basically very little disrupt (discarding two cards and giving them 2 lands is not a lot, and Teeg is easy to answer, at least by 4-6 cards in ANT post-SB while they still have 8 cantrips to find them)
If they have a chain of vapor + gas, and you have 3 GSZ, I think the plan is not Teeg, or at least not Teeg on GSZ number 1. It is to go grab another creature you are willing to sacrifice, flashback therapy on gas (not CoV) then maybe ooze next turn and Teeg the following. Or if you fear that even after 2x discard on their combo piece they could go off quickly, grab ooze and sac DRS, next turn follow with Teeg. Here you have a better clock and control over grave.
Casting CoV is not free for them, it cost them a card and U. Discarding a combo piece instead could be good.

Do you playtest playing ANT? If not, that is probably what you should do.

Echelon

05-13-2016, 07:22 AM

On the preordain, did (s)he keep both cards?

Otherwise what you propose here would have been an even worst misplay. you should not give two additional mana to storm, it is like giving them a dark ritual.
Additionally, with this line of play, you lock yourself, putting them only in a 5 turn clock with basically very little disrupt (discarding two cards and giving them 2 lands is not a lot, and Teeg is easy to answer, at least by 4-6 cards in ANT post-SB while they still have 8 cantrips to find them)
If they have a chain of vapor + gas, and you have 3 GSZ, I think the plan is not Teeg, or at least not Teeg on GSZ number 1. It is to go grab another creature you are willing to sacrifice, flashback therapy on gas (not CoV) then maybe ooze next turn and Teeg the following. Or if you fear that even after 2x discard on their combo piece they could go off quickly, grab ooze and sac DRS, next turn follow with Teeg. Here you have a better clock and control over grave.
Casting CoV is not free for them, it cost them a card and U. Discarding a combo piece instead could be good.

Do you playtest playing ANT? If not, that is probably what you should do.

Can't remember what he did with his Preordain. I had Teeg in my opening 7, I didn't get it from a GSZ (how could I otherwise have cast both Therapy AND Teeg T2?). Casting and flashbacking Therapy AND GSZ'ing for Scooze on T2 isn't possible either. His hand at that point was something along the lines of Tutor, CoV and at least 3 Petal/Ritual/LEDs and 2 more cards - I would not have lived to see T3, of that much I'm certain and with the right topdeck on his side I still would've been dead on the spot hadn't I flashbacked Therapy. Teeg had to come down on T2 and that CoV had to go too. The risk was way too big. Teeg bought me quite some time, I just whiffed on threats. I topdecked one land after the other. In the end the Storm pilot used a second CoV to not only bounce Teeg but also bounce his Lotus Petals and LED(s) to up his storm count before he made a crapton of goblins., which I couldn't answer in time. Shit happens, no need to dwell on it.

I hardly have any time to actually play MtG. Whenever I do it's either with a buddy (who does not pilot ANT) or a tournament at the LGS. Both make for poor playtesting grounds vs. anyStorm.

Tao

05-13-2016, 08:04 AM

Unrelated but funny note - I beat Belcher last night 2-0 without casting a single spell. G1 he keeps a 7 card hand and plays 3 GProbes T1 and misses one mana short to cast Empty with his burning wish and scoops. G2 he keeps 7 card hand, probes me and sees 2 TS 2 Therapy 2 lands and a pithing needle and scoops because he can't go off until T2 XD

G2 is no reason to scoop. You have no pressure whatsoever to back up the discard so he can easily draw out of it.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 08:45 AM

G2 is no reason to scoop. You have no pressure whatsoever to back up the discard so he can easily draw out of it.

I mean I needle Belcher, then shred his hand, and I will draw a threat eventually. Regardless, I don't know whats going on in his head, its his tickets and his concession. I'm not saying anyone should be gaining any insightful knowledge for the belcher matchup here :P

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 01:47 PM

List ideas for the modo Legacy Challenge, feedback/criticism pl0x
Modo meta is heavy Miracles, Shardless, Delver, Eldrazi and Combo (Storm, Reanimator, Show&Tell, Elves)

Two cards like this xxx/yyy? means I'm not sure which and want an opinion.
A sideboard choice with a (?) means I'm not sure and want an opinion.

SFM Fit 61Main/15SB

4 Gsun
1 Dabor
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 Ewit
1 Tracker/Truths?
1 Meren
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 Bsk

3 Top
4 Therapy
2 TS
3 Path
3 Decay
3 Deed

21 Land
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB
2 Needle
2 SurgExt
2 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abeyance
1 Rec Sage
2 ToxDeluge
1 Truths/Sorin?

SB Plans

Miracles:
Disrupt their game plan while pressuring them up the curve and maintaining card advantage.
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeepr +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +1 Truths/Sorin
-4 Vet -1 Meren -4 Therapy -3 Path

Shardless:
Cut 1-4-1 discard that is bad in the late game for cards that generate card advantage or prevent theirs.
+2 Abeyance(?) +1 Rec Sage +2 Deluge +1 Truths/Sorin
-2 TS(?) -4 Therapy

Delver:
Answer their creatures then win with life gaining equipment/thrag tusk
+2 Deluge
-2 TS

Eldrazi:
Remove their Seer/Smasher before it hits the board, block with vet and kill everything.
+2 Deluge +2 TS +1 RecSage/Sorin? (?)
-4 Therapy -1 Tracker (?)

Storm:
Shred their hand/deck and win with equipped weenies.
+2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +2 Deluge
-3 Path -3 Decay -1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte

Reanimator:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance
-3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte

Show&Tell:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +1 RecSage
-3 Path -3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Jitte -1 Tracker -1 Tusk

Elves:
Slow them down & sweeeeeeep
+2 TS +1 Teeg +2 Deluge
-1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -2 Decay (really mana efficient)

D&T:
Get your mana and kill everything
+2 Deluge +1 RecSage
-1 Meren -2 TS

Rhino Fit 61Main/15SB

4 Gsun
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 STE
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
3 Rhino
1 Meren
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda

3 Top
1 Truths
4 Therapy
2 TS
4 Path
3 Decay
1 Pulse
3 Deed

21 Land
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phy tower
1 Volrath's

SB
2 Needle
2 SurgExt
2 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
2 Abeyance
1 RecSage
2 ToxDeluge
1 Truths/Sorin
1 ??? My sideboard plan doesn't even need this slot, super weird

SB Plans

Miracles:
Disrupt their game plan while pressuring them up the curve and maintaining card advantage.
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeepr +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +1 Truths/Sorin +1?
-4 Vet -4 Therapy -4 Path -1 Meren

Shardless:
Cut 1-4-1 discard that is bad in the late game for cards that generate card advantage or prevent theirs.
+2 Abeyance(?) +1 Rec Sage +2 Deluge +1 Truths +1 Sorin??
-2 TS(?) -4 Therapy

Delver:
Answer their creatures then win with life gaining fatties
+2 Deluge + 1 Sorin??
-2 TS -1 Truths

Eldrazi:
Remove their Seer/Smasher before it hits the board, block with vet and kill everything.
+2 Deluge +2 TS +1 RecSage (?) +1 Sorin??
-4 Therapy -1 Truths (?)

Storm:
Shred their hand/deck and cast rhinos.
+2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +2 Deluge
-4 Path -3 Decay -1 Truths -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda

Reanimator:
Disrupt their combo and cast rhinos
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage
-3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Truths -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda

Show&Tell:
Disrupt their combo, and cast rhinos
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 RecSage
-4 Path -3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Truths

Elves:
Slow them down & sweeeeeeep
+2 TS +1 Teeg +2 Deluge
-1 Tusk -1 Truths -2 Decay -1 Pulse (really mana efficient)

D&T:
Get your mana and kill everything
+2 Deluge +1 RecSage
-1 Truths -2 TS

LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK AND WHICH I SHOULD PLAY. I'll be testing both tonight and tomorrow anyways.

rubblekill

05-13-2016, 02:41 PM

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 02:48 PM

The 2nd list is better because, you know..muh rhinos.
Interesting that you decided to play safekeeper in the side and not in the main. I really don't know where to put that little guy.
2 deluge in the sb is overkill. I don't even know if 1 is needed because I'd rather have golgari charm in this world filled with elemental tokens; if you play 1 deluge instead it is not the end of the world. 2 is overkill.
2 abeyance seems a little defence against miracles. Why not 3 abeyances and 1 less deluge instead? miracles is gonna be the big dog tomorrow and you know it. Shardless will be played a lot as well.

Thanks for the response Rubblekill

Yea I like safekeeper in the side, he basically only comes in when you wanna protect a teeg.
I actually have a spare slot in the sideboard.

I don't really see a world full of elemental tokens, and golgari charm isn't anywhere near as good as deluge against all the random creature decks, midrange, merfolk etc.

If you sideboard in another card against miracles, what extra card would you take out? Currently I'm adding 12 cards and cutting 4 therapy, 4 vet and 4 path. Have to cut another card to add another.

rubblekill

05-13-2016, 02:50 PM

Thanks for the response Rubblekill

Yea I like safekeeper in the side, he basically only comes in when you wanna protect a teeg.
I actually have a spare slot in the sideboard.

I don't really see a world full of elemental tokens, and golgari charm isn't anywhere near as good as deluge against all the random creature decks, midrange, merfolk etc.

If you sideboard in another card against miracles, what extra card would you take out? Currently I'm adding 12 cards and cutting 4 therapy, 4 vet and 4 path. Have to cut another card to add another.

STE? I don't know if I like it, especially in the slowest of match ups..

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 02:53 PM

STE? I don't know if I like it, especially in the slowest of match ups..

Maybe.. but when you cut all your vets and you only play 21 lands, and all your threats are 4 cmc (unlike the SFM build) I feel like you might want the additional ramp?

rubblekill

05-13-2016, 02:55 PM

Maybe.. but when you cut all your vets and you only play 21 lands, and all your threats are 4 cmc (unlike the SFM build) I feel like you might want the additional ramp?

You play 3 tops..
I play 21 lands and I don't have any problem in that regard..but I play a control role and not an aggressive one in that matchup in G2-3, so that might be the reason I usually don't have mana problems (not gonna jam a rhino on t3-4 usually). I'd cut STE, but this remains your call!

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 02:57 PM

You play 3 tops..
I play 21 lands and I don't have any problem in that regard..but I play a control role and not an aggressive one in that matchup in G2-3, so that might be the reason I usually don't have mana problems (not gonna jam a rhino on t3-4 usually). I'd cut STE, but this remains your call!

I have way less experience with the Rhino build, so I will definitely defer to you here. And that being the case, then I really don't want STE in the main deck if its cuttable against miracles. I'll cut it for scooze. And side out scooze against miracles (sounds reasonable?)

rubblekill

05-13-2016, 03:01 PM

I have way less experience with the Rhino build, so I will definitely defer to you here. And that being the case, then I really don't want STE in the main deck if its cuttable against miracles. I'll cut it for scooze. And side out scooze against miracles (sounds reasonable?)

I think I am the only one to side out scooze, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I board out meren and ooze for garruk and sorin, so I'd cut ooze but a lot of people here will tell you otherwise. I am not a pro player so it's not like what I say is the best thing to do.

Arianrhod

05-13-2016, 03:03 PM

I had a similar problem, Jain, where I just had a 15th slot that wasn't being used in any of my plans. This is what I'm looking to take to Charlotte with me for side events:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Deadly Recluse
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Painful Truths
2 Pithing Needle
3 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
3 open

Still trying to iron out the sideboard. Back to Rhinos over Angels for the moment, mostly because I wasn't happy with just how badly damaged Zenith was in the angel-heavy list. I fiercely dislike running out of Zenith targets, which happened sometimes with that deck -- it's likely that the answer is that it's just running too many spells and needs more creatures with spell-like abilities, but I don't have the time or energy to sink into that particular headache at the moment, so I'm just going to Rhino people.

When looking over my sideboard in an attempt to figure out what the 15th slot should be, I came to the conclusion that, as good as Carpet of Flowers is vs Miracles and Delver, they're only really necessary against those two decks. Back a couple years ago, they were better because Stoneblade used to exist. With Blade pushed out of the meta, they just don't come in enough. I think that for Angels, Carpet is still relevant enough to run, since it's important to the gameplan of: hit 5 mana, fist opponent with angels. For Rhinos, though, I think the effect is much less relevant, though still powerful.

Sell Abeyance to me. I understand the theory of it, but what I'm missing is the practical applications. Give me some brief scenarios where you've used it. Obviously in response to Glimpse or Ritual #3 is a great time, but I'm more unsure about Miracles. Do you just fire it off on your main phase and force them to counter it, then do something backbreaking? Do you respond to their Top draw? They still get the draw, though. I'm just not entirely seeing what makes it so great.

I currently have 10 out of a desired 13 for Miracles, so the three slots that are open yet should hopefully end up as Miracles splash, but I feel a bit light for storm, Elves/DnT, Infect, and like 1 card off from Shardless. My Miracles plan atm is -4 Vet -4 Therapy -3 Path -1 Recluse -1 Meren;;; +Sorin, +Elspeth, +Truths, +2 Grip, +3 Sgt Slaughter, +2 Needle, +3?

Abeyance checks off a lot of those boxes, and then the 15th card can be something to piss off Shardless. I just need to make sure I know what the hell I'm doing with it before I actually put it in a list.

Also, depending on the individual list, I'm getting increasingly closer to thinking that Terminus should be Slaughter #2 vs Miracles (#1 obviously is always Jace). It's attractive to systematically remove their win conditions, but realistically, we should be able to kill them quickly enough to not have to worry about Entreat or Mentor as long as they don't have Terminus to stop us from killing them, plus both Entreat and Mentor play directly into our Deeds, Decays, and Top hate anyway.

My rough opinion of decks in terms of number of cards I want for them:

Miracles: yes
Shardless: 4 [-4 Therapy, same as for vs traditional Jund/Junk]
Delver: maybe nothing? Two Painful Truths should probably be boarded out.
Lands: 5-6
Eldrazi: 3-4
DnT: 4 (Meren/Dromoka, probably shaving a Path and maybe the Taiga)
Infect: 7
Painter: 7
ANT: 7
Burn: 4

These make up the main contingent of decks that I believe we need plans for. Reanimator and Sneak/Show might still be popular online, but I believe that both of these decks are relics as far as the current paper legacy metagame goes. Yes, people will still play relics, but neither of these decks is likely to go deep (past round 5-6) at the GP. The preponderance of Grixis Delver, Miracles, and Shardless will stifle both decks, as well as the likely large numbers of Eldrazi. Eldrazi and Grixis should hold ANT's numbers down as well, so we can likely skimp there. It's worth noting, though, that an awful lot of people that play Storm decks tend to be above average pilots with their deck, so it's worth keeping it in mind, I think.

Burn and Death and Taxes will both be popular in raw numbers. I don't know how well either is likely to do, but for at least the first half of day 1, we should expect the in large quantities. There will be a dedicated contingent of Painter players looking to fist people with Blood Moon and turn 2 wins, buoyed by positive Shardless and Lands matchups, as well as I /think/ a favorable Eldrazi win rate? Infect has been doing well lately, apparently, and I expect to see a lot of budget modern converts. Whether or not the lists will be fully powered with Berserks is a crapshoot.

Miracles, Shardless, Eldrazi, Delver, and Lands are the five decks that I want to prepare the most against/for going into the event, with a modest amount of attention paid to Burn and DnT as the primary budget decks. Delver and Eldrazi should need minimal help, Shardless in the middle, Lands above that, and Miracles needs the most.

The trick is going to be finding cards that flex between Miracles and other decks. Honestly, looking at those 7 decks (and even beyond them, at Infect), Slaughter Games doesn't look great. I'm not sure how we're supposed to beat Miracles without an uncounterable answer to Jace [and Terminus], though. Sorin and Elspeth both look pretty great, Grip looks great, Needle looks great. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I'm back to being virulently anti-Teeg after my experience at Mythic last month, so I'm not on board with this whole Teeg + Safekeeper nonsense. We're not Maverick. It's a whole lot less likely that we'll assemble some semblance of reasonable clock to kill them before they recover than it was for Maverick.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings.

-------------

@Jain:

Going down from the top:

I like the Rhino list better, personally, but a large amount of that is bias against Stoneforge, so keep that in mind.

Why no Thrun in the SFM list? You look pretty threat-light, and Thrun is a great dude to suit up. Green Sun looks pretty bad in this deck, so buffing its targets a bit isn't the worst plan.

Justify maindeck Thoughtseize. I get that the modo meta is a bit more combo-based than paper is, but maindeck Thoughtseizes (costing space for Zenith targets) is a pretty steep measure. I would sooner run Safekeeper/Teeg maindeck than two Seizes, I think. They're useful in more than just combo matchups, they're bodies to carry equips, and they're Zenith targets.

3 Path/3 Decay is 1 high imo, but if you want 6 maindeck spot removal, why not use the 3rd Decay slot for a Vindicate, Unmaking, or Pulse, to diversify the suite.

No Painful Truths, in the deck with Batterskull? I guess space is a perpetual problem since the SFM package takes up so much room. That said, Tracker is better -- again, you need bodies for SFM and Zenith, and Tracker is a very above average one.

5 basics with 2 towers is greedy as all hell, I think.

Why a Diabolic Intent in the board? You have it coming in vs Storm, Reanimator, and Show/Tell, but not Elves? You don't really have anything backbreaking to grab with it -- is it just a 3rd Abeyance, basically? Like if you had a 3ball/Nether Void style of effect to grab, I could see it, but when you just have spells and Zenith bullets, and nothing that can actually lock them out of the game, I'm not following you.

On to the Rhinos.

All 4 Rhinos, but no Meren?

8 spot removal is super, super deep in the tank. I'd immediately and happily cut one of those (probably a Path) for a 2nd Painful Truths.

Same question about Thoughtseize.

Mana base looks...better...here. I don't love the Volrath's, but I've learned to ignore it.

For reference, because I think this needs gone into further:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower

vs

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phy tower
1 Volrath's

Translates to:

16G 13W 13B +PhyTower +Taiga (my 22nd, which you don't have, so I just dropped it)
vs
14G 13W 13B +PhyTower +Volraths

We have the same W and B, but I have 2 [3] more green sources than you do. If you're comfortable with that, then more power to you -- but I just think the question needs to be asked. I've found not hitting a green source to be one of the most debilitating and quickest ways to lose a game, so I place a pretty high priority on it.

Related: Karakas seems better than plains #2 if you were willing to run 1 plains in the SFM list, especially if you're worried about seeing Reanimator//Show and Tell in large enough quantities to have a board plan for them.

Moving on...

Same question regarding sideboard.

Also, what do you think you want another slot for? What should the open slot turn into, do you think: matchup-based, not individual card choice.

Hope that helps, Jain.

Ralf

05-13-2016, 03:15 PM

SFM Fit 61Main/15SB

4 Gsun
1 Dabor
4 Vet
2 Drs
1 Ewit
1 Tracker/Truths?
1 Meren
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 Bsk

3 Top
4 Therapy
2 TS
3 Path
3 Decay
3 Deed

21 Land
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower

SB
2 Needle
2 SurgExt
2 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abeyance
1 Rec Sage
2 ToxDeluge
1 Truths/Sorin?

SB Plans

Miracles:
Disrupt their game plan while pressuring them up the curve and maintaining card advantage.
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeepr +1 Teeg +2 Abeyance +1 Rec Sage +1 Truths/Sorin
-4 Vet -1 Meren -4 Therapy -3 Path

Shardless:
Cut 1-4-1 discard that is bad in the late game for cards that generate card advantage or prevent theirs.
+2 Abeyance(?) +1 Rec Sage +2 Deluge +1 Truths/Sorin
-2 TS(?) -4 Therapy

Delver:
Answer their creatures then win with life gaining equipment/thrag tusk
+2 Deluge
-2 TS

Eldrazi:
Remove their Seer/Smasher before it hits the board, block with vet and kill everything.
+2 Deluge +2 TS +1 RecSage/Sorin? (?)
-4 Therapy -1 Tracker (?)

Storm:
Shred their hand/deck and win with equipped weenies.
+2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +2 Deluge
-3 Path -3 Decay -1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte

Reanimator:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance
-3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Tusk -1 Sigarda -1 Jitte

Show&Tell:
Disrupt their combo, find karakas and win with equipped weenies
+2 Needle +2 SurgExt +2 TS +1 Safekeeper +1 Teeg +1 DiabIntent +2 Abeyance +1 RecSage
-3 Path -3 Decay -3 Deed -1 Jitte -1 Tracker -1 Tusk

Elves:
Slow them down & sweeeeeeep
+2 TS +1 Teeg +2 Deluge
-1 Tracker -1 Meren -1 Tusk -2 Decay (really mana efficient)

D&T:
Get your mana and kill everything
+2 Deluge +1 RecSage
-1 Meren -2 TS

From my point of view you should definitely try (someday):

4 Vet/2 DRS -> 4 DRS / 2 Vet
Meren -> Rhino
Tracker -> OK
Deed -> Liliana
Path to exile -> STP (except if you expect a lot of Marit Lage)
SOFI -> Courser
3 tops -> 1 top + 2 Sylvan Lib
Thragtusk -> KotR

Lands (22) 15G 15W 15B
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

2 Needle
2 SE
1 TS
1 HTT
1 Teeg
1 Ooze
3 Abeyance
1 Rec Sage
2 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari charm

square_two

05-13-2016, 03:17 PM

Sell Abeyance to me. I understand the theory of it, but what I'm missing is the practical applications. Give me some brief scenarios where you've used it. Obviously in response to Glimpse or Ritual #3 is a great time, but I'm more unsure about Miracles. Do you just fire it off on your main phase and force them to counter it, then do something backbreaking? Do you respond to their Top draw? They still get the draw, though. I'm just not entirely seeing what makes it so great.

There are some diverse applications - though I've only used it against Storm and Miracles. Very satisfying to cast it in response to Infernal Tutor.

Against Miracles, you can fire it off during their draw or upkeep in order to prevent another Jace or Nahiri (yes I'm starting to see Nahiricles online) uptick, as well as in response to the miracles trigger in order to prevent them from casting Entreat or Terminus. I probably wouldn't use it as an anti-counter spell unless you are going to resolve something backbreaking like Choke, Tsunami, Sorin, Garruk, Sigarda, etc. Others with more experience might have more ideas.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 03:28 PM

Cheers Arianrhod, that does help.

To answer your questions/points:

Yea I think I just realised that the extra sideboard slot should probably be used for a deck that isn't listed in my plan, that's still popular.. like burn, pox, or something. I don't know. Maybe just a flexible card, or another miracles card. Ha, really don't know.

Abeyance: It seems like you missed the key interaction when you described the card, when the draw a miracle (be it eot or in their draw phase) the miracle trigger goes on the stack and says "hey, reveal this and you can play it in a second". While that trigger is on the stack you can cast abeyance and then they can no longer cast it. The miracle trigger resolves but they can't cast it, so it just ends up in their hand and they will have to find a brainstorm to stick it back and then try again next turn. It's basically a remand.

No Thrun because of space, I just like tusk, meren and tracker over him (he was in the build a month or so ago but got cut for not being good enough)

I still don't understand why everyone is so confused about TS :P Maybe it's because I come from a Junk/rock background in modern and legacy where we always play 6 or more discard effects. We live in legacy, you NEED to do something proactive T1 and you need to interact in the early game. I'm so concrete on TS and happy with its play value that I would never cut the two of them. Teeg is useless against 50+% of the meta game TS is useful against 100% of the meta.

I recently cut the truths for another removal spell after stuggling against eldrazi a few times and just wishing I had more removal in hand against delver.

I've played with 5 basics for a long time now, and found it be bare minimum, but good enough. The second tower would become a Marsh flats before another basic I think (and that would help with the mana problems you mention later)

Diabolic intent is to fetch karakas and teeg/safekeeper in their respective matchups. I could cut it (and the karakas) and have a free slot.

RHINOS
4 Rhinos and no Meren because I don't want two 5 drops and five 4 drops. I added volrath's to compensate lack of meren. I guess I can cut a meren for a rhino to diversify (she wins a lot of games..) and then that gives me the extra slot to cut against miracles too. Cheers for the thoughts.

8 removal because I really don't want to lose to Eldrazi AND miracles, plus secure the delver and tribal matchups etc.
ie the game plan is to kill everything and then play fatties. Playing lots of removal spells is half of that plan.

Thanks again for the post, it does help.

Ralf

05-13-2016, 03:29 PM

Sell Abeyance to me. I understand the theory of it, but what I'm missing is the practical applications. Give me some brief scenarios where you've used it. Obviously in response to Glimpse or Ritual #3 is a great time, but I'm more unsure about Miracles. Do you just fire it off on your main phase and force them to counter it, then do something backbreaking? Do you respond to their Top draw? They still get the draw, though. I'm just not entirely seeing what makes it so great.

Abeyance checks off a lot of those boxes, and then the 15th card can be something to piss off Shardless. I just need to make sure I know what the hell I'm doing with it before I actually put it in a list.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=944527&viewfull=1#post944527

And I'm surely missing some nasty tricks along the way.

Arianrhod

05-13-2016, 03:31 PM

There are some diverse applications - though I've only used it against Storm and Miracles. Very satisfying to cast it in response to Infernal Tutor.

Against Miracles, you can fire it off during their draw or upkeep in order to prevent another Jace or Nahiri (yes I'm starting to see Nahiricles online) uptick, as well as in response to the miracles trigger in order to prevent them from casting Entreat or Terminus. I probably wouldn't use it as an anti-counter spell unless you are going to resolve something backbreaking like Choke, Tsunami, Sorin, Garruk, Sigarda, etc. Others with more experience might have more ideas.

Using it in response to the Miracle trigger is a good one. That's an application I wasn't thinking of, probably /the/ application.

And yeah, I've been seeing the uptick of Nahiricles in popularity as well. I'm not really sure what to think of it, to be perfectly honest.

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 03:32 PM

Arsenal

05-13-2016, 03:44 PM

Deranged Hermit. Once a staple of Nic Fit style decks, seems to have fallen out of favor recently. He interacts very well with Recurring Nightmare as well as Cabal Therapy, plus he gives us a way to go wide on the opponent for very little investment. Thoughts on his usefulness in today's meta?

For reference, this is my 75 (took the 7th place SCG Milwaukee list and made minor modifications). The Deranged Hermit and Recurring Nightmare slots are flex slots, so they could be anything.

Main

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Side

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Ethersworn Canonist

pettdan

05-13-2016, 03:48 PM

So much to comment on here, pardon for not using proper quotes and not spending an extra hour to polish all comments below.

@ Jain_mor, Rubblekill:
I tend to board out Ooze vs Miracles too. There are never gonna be enough creatures in the graveyards to grow him into a threat, and the only use you have of him beyond being a grizzly bear is exiling in response to Snapcaster trigger - most times they will be able to Swords Ooze before they play the Snapcaster (or Terminus).

@ Jain_mor:
Regarding Tireless Tracker or Painful Truths in your first list, I would definitely go with Tracker. You need bodies to attach equipments to, but more importantly Tracker is a GSZ-able Painful Truths (3 for 1) if you play it with a fetch land in hand (mention several times, I know) and from there it just gets better - it has the potential of growing large just like Ooze and it's not to be neglected, while drawing you plenty of cards. It's the one card (i.e. creature serving as a clock) I would keep in to have a clock vs combo decks, GSZ for Tracker and then draw into more disruption while beating down.

@ Jain_mor:
Comment on your second list, when I've played similar Rhino lists I've been fine with 3 Veterans and 2 Deathrites, so I agree about the discussion on the previous page about skipping STE (and I would skip one Veteran too, but that's just me). [edit: actually the same goes for my Mystic lists, they are usually lower in CMC:s than the Rhino lists so 3 Veterans probably make even more sense there. And I agree with you about missing Deed when lowering the number on them, that was my biggest problem with a 5 slot equipment package and 2 deeds.]

Arianrhod: "I feel a bit light for storm, Elves/DnT, Infect, and like 1 card off from Shardless."

I have written it previously but let me repeat it. I'm currently favoring the trio of Ethersworn Canonist, Engineered Plague and Enlightened Tutor. Vs Storm you want two Canonists, but don't particularly care if it's two copies or one tutor + one Canonist. The card disadvantage is more or less irrelevant. E.Tutor can even be better than Canonist, if you start and they open with discard you can respond by tutoring for Canonist. If they go for goblins you can actually get Plague instead, using your "second" Canonist (i.e. the E.Tutor) to stop their alternative win condition - pretty good for a fullgood replacement of a second Canonist. And then vs Elves you don't want a second Canonist (you probably don't want the first one either, at least I don't) but instead following up initial discard with a quasi lock peace in Engineered Plague. Note that the card disadvantage of E.Tutor is pretty irrelevant in this matchup too, once the tutored for Plague is played you will have plenty of card advantage. Vs Infect both Canonist and Plague are great. Plague takes out any 33% of their threats, including Nexus. Canonist makes it possible for you to destroy their attacker post pumping, etc. So I think these three sideboard slots are pretty perfect for the three matchups you mention, haven't looked thoroughly at your list though. Plague is also good vs Death and Taxes, Goblins and any Pyromancer deck (basically a hard lock vs UR Delver someone informed me). Once you have an E.Tutor in the board, you may want to add stuff like Choke (should be basically a lockdown vs Storm/Grixis Delver decks if they tap out and you know the coast is clear and without the tutor it's still good vs Miracles) and Ensnaring Bridge (hard for some Eldrazi decks to deal with, tutor for it and top in response to Show and Tell, also stops Marit Lage).

Arianrhod: "The trick is going to be finding cards that flex between Miracles and other decks. Honestly, looking at those 7 decks (and even beyond them, at Infect), Slaughter Games doesn't look great."

I've mentioned that I'm testing REB over Slaughter Games. It's t1-t3 interaction with Storm, and coupled with extra discard it can be good to keep them off cantripping into combo pieces. It stops Jace (much cheaper too), it stops Counterbalance, Clique/Snappy and cantrips. Slaughter Games shine vs Miracles but REB is good too. And vs Infect REB seems much better (than Slaughter Games), stopping the unblockable blue creature which is most relevant but also stopping cantrips, submerge and protecting your removal from FoW. I would suggest changing the third copy of Slaughter Games into a copy of REB to see how you like it. REB also stops Shardless, Visions and Jace from Shardless (without the card disadvantage of S.G.). I'm also thinking that REB can be good vs Painter: they usually need Painter to win so even if you're locked out of mana you can usually wait for a chance to REB their Blood Moon and then you'll have mana for using your spot removal on Painter/Grindstone.

Ralf

05-13-2016, 03:54 PM

@Ralf,
I have played 4Drs / 2 Vet builds a year or more ago... I ended up deciding that deed was the card that was winning me the most games and I loved cabal therapy so I should play into those strengths and that means 4 vet 4 therapy all day every day.

That said, if I continue to struggle with miracles and nothing changes, I may move back to a more junkish build in which case we can start PMing like kids at the back of class and work on lists :P

EDIT: On the previous page I have two lists that I'm considering for the legacy challenge tomorrow, would appreciate thoughts on them, thanks peeps.

I gave you other ideas as well. Just don't stare @ the first line:)

To be fair I also have a good experience with SFM builds as you might know.

There is kinda bad synergy with SFM + Deed.

Liliana is really a powerhouse and such a grind machine.

KotR pulls its weight against Drazi among its other abilities.

Ooze is must and should be somewhere in your 75.

Engineered Plague is very very neat. It comes in various MU (Elves, Miracle, Pyromancer decks, D&T, Merfolk, Gobelin, Infect...etc)

Good luck for your tournament tomorrow !

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 05:26 PM

So this just happened and I am ever so close to giving up: http://imgur.com/a/uFhWW

Everything went to plan, I was drawing cards, I was getting damage in, I always had a threat in play and one in hand. I landed a sorin, he revealed a land for me, then opp plays jace and sorin kills it and kills a mentor next turn before dying to a token. I abeyanced his terminus and got the opponent down to one health, he then answers my tusk and its token, and my tracker then FoW'd my gsun for rhino that I drew from the clue... I didnt draw any decays and he counter spelled my deed so I couldnt answer the balances so I couldn't play my needle naming top or jace. And then I eventually ran out of threats in hand and he landed a jace it fatesealed me to death. After the game he told me he had an extra terminus on top the whole time and he just misplayed regarding the abeyance -.-

I guess it is now Slaughter Games or bust. Consensus on Slaughter games is play 3 or go home right? Has no one ever found a conflict between teeg and games, you run them together right? If we are running slaughter games, sorin, teeg and pulse to deal with jace, do we still want needles to name top since we play our own? I like Pettdan's REB idea, I wouldn't try it against delver though, just non wasteland decks.

SB ideas

1 Etutor
1 Needle
1 Canonist
1 RIP
1 E Plague
1 Humility/ensaring bridge? (??)
1 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 RecSage
2 REB
2 Slaughter
1 Sorin

2 Needle (??)
2 SurgExt
1 TS
1 Safekeeper
1 Teeg
1 RecSage
2 ToxDeluge/??
2 REB
2 Slaughter
1 Sorin

I'm going mad over here.
And thanks Ralf, I'm going to need it haha.

sdematt

05-13-2016, 05:40 PM

Just try my board:

(1 Safekeeper in main, 2 Sorin in main)

1 Teeg
3 Thoughtseize
2 Canonist
1 Ruination
1 Tsunami
2 Slaughter Games
1 Sigarda/Elspeth/Garruk Relentless
2 Needle
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

Grip is still always good as well.

-Matt

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 05:43 PM

sdematt

05-13-2016, 05:47 PM

You know it, babe.

4 Vet
2 DRS
1 Ooze
1 Witness
4 Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Safekeeper

4 GSZ
4 Therapy
3 Path
3 Deed
3 Decay
3 Top
2 Truths
1 Sylvan Library

2 Sorin

22 Lands

Jain_Mor

05-13-2016, 05:53 PM

Cheers bbz, I'm calling it a night. I'll will be testing something similar tomorrow morning and lunch before the tourney. I'll report my findings and inevitable victory.

Brael

05-13-2016, 10:00 PM

Also, depending on the individual list, I'm getting increasingly closer to thinking that Terminus should be Slaughter #2 vs Miracles (#1 obviously is always Jace). It's attractive to systematically remove their win conditions, but realistically, we should be able to kill them quickly enough to not have to worry about Entreat or Mentor as long as they don't have Terminus to stop us from killing them, plus both Entreat and Mentor play directly into our Deeds, Decays, and Top hate anyway.

I actually like Terminus as the #1 name off of Slaughter Games. Once they don't have a board wipe Jace is a lot less effective at bouncing things because you can extend into it.

My rough opinion of decks in terms of number of cards I want for them:

Miracles: yes
Shardless: 4 [-4 Therapy, same as for vs traditional Jund/Junk]
Delver: maybe nothing? Two Painful Truths should probably be boarded out.
Lands: 5-6
Eldrazi: 3-4
DnT: 4 (Meren/Dromoka, probably shaving a Path and maybe the Taiga)
Infect: 7
Painter: 7
ANT: 7
Burn: 4

Mine is
Miracles: 5 (-4 Vet, -1 Path, +3 Ramp, +1 Teeg, +1 Thrun... I don't splash Red)
Shardless: 0 (Bringing in Choke is nice splash damage but it's not any better than what you're taking out)
Delver: 0 (same issue with Choke)
Lands: Not much experience, probably 3-4? (-all Decay/Vindicate/Pulse, +exile removal, +disruption)
Eldrazi: 4 (-2 Decay, -2 Deed, +exile, +discard, +LD)
DnT: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 Ramp, +2 Thoughtseize)
Infect: 3 (-2 DRS, -1 Ooze, +Choke/exile)
Painter: No idea
ANT: No idea
Burn: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 DRS, 1 Ooze, 1 Shriekmaw)

So in those matchups that gives me a board of:
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thoughtseize
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Choke
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
2 Faerie Macabre

Like I've said several times in the past, my general strategy with the deck is to include things that can hit the opponent in the face. I've considered making Thoughtseize into Tidehollow for that reason. It costs the same under Thalia, it hits the opponent, and most decks I'm bringing it in for can't remove it anyways, in the event of something like Storm I would actually rather it be under Tidehollow than happily sitting in the GY. This also applies to something like keeping Lands off of a Life from the Loam.

I notice I SB far fewer cards than you do, perhaps a list of what you take out would be in order? I find that to generally be more helpful than what you bring in since you can't bring in more than you take out, but you can certainly pack your SB with too many cards that you want to bring in.

Arianrhod

05-13-2016, 11:31 PM

I actually like Terminus as the #1 name off of Slaughter Games. Once they don't have a board wipe Jace is a lot less effective at bouncing things because you can extend into it.

Mine is
Miracles: 5 (-4 Vet, -1 Path, +3 Ramp, +1 Teeg, +1 Thrun... I don't splash Red)
Shardless: 0 (Bringing in Choke is nice splash damage but it's not any better than what you're taking out)
Delver: 0 (same issue with Choke)
Lands: Not much experience, probably 3-4? (-all Decay/Vindicate/Pulse, +exile removal, +disruption)
Eldrazi: 4 (-2 Decay, -2 Deed, +exile, +discard, +LD)
DnT: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 Ramp, +2 Thoughtseize)
Infect: 3 (-2 DRS, -1 Ooze, +Choke/exile)
Painter: No idea
ANT: No idea
Burn: 4 (-4 Vet, +2 DRS, 1 Ooze, 1 Shriekmaw)

So in those matchups that gives me a board of:
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thoughtseize
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Choke
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
2 Faerie Macabre

Like I've said several times in the past, my general strategy with the deck is to include things that can hit the opponent in the face. I've considered making Thoughtseize into Tidehollow for that reason. It costs the same under Thalia, it hits the opponent, and most decks I'm bringing it in for can't remove it anyways, in the event of something like Storm I would actually rather it be under Tidehollow than happily sitting in the GY. This also applies to something like keeping Lands off of a Life from the Loam.

I notice I SB far fewer cards than you do, perhaps a list of what you take out would be in order? I find that to generally be more helpful than what you bring in since you can't bring in more than you take out, but you can certainly pack your SB with too many cards that you want to bring in.

It's definitely possible that I'm overboarding in an attempt to make popular matchups win-more and in the process and destabilizing too much. Here's my notes from my 14-card sideboard I mentioned earlier:

Miracles:

-4 Vet
-Meren
-Deadly Recluse
-3 Path
-4 Therapy
(13)

+2 Needle
+2 Grip
+Sorin
+Elspeth
+2 Carpet
+3 Slaughter
+P.Truths
+?? [15th slot]
(13)

By far the most conversion-oriented matchup, lots of ins/outs as a result. I don't want Vet or Therapy postboard, Meren will never bring back anything between StP and Terminus, Recluse's body and ability are both irrelevant here, and Path is useless.

Shardless:

-4 Therapy
(4)

+Sorin
+Elspeth
+P.Truths
+?? [15th slot]
(4)

In my experience, Therapy just isn't where you want to be in this matchup. You're going to get Hymned into oblivion (or Ancestralled into oblivion), so you just want to load up on as much power as you can, to punch through their nebulous defenses. They have to attack into your Veterans, so you don't need Therapy as a sac outlet, and most games are going to come down to a topdeck (or Top deck) battle. Furthermore, they're very much a Deathrite deck, and Therapy just gives them more opportunities to nug you.

Delver:

-2 P.Truths
(2)

+2 Carpet
(2)

Pretty self explanatory. As I said, I'm probably going to cut the Carpets since they're only good in two matches, but, this an easy in/out, I think.

Lands:

-Recluse
-Dromoka
-Meren
-2 Decay
(5)

+2 Needle
+2 Surgical
+Sorin
(5)

Recluse can block Merit Lage for a turn, but won't kill it. Same with Dromoka, which has the added problem of being legendary against the Karakas/Loam/Gamble deck. Meren has those problems as well as being hosed by Bojuka Bog. Decays are useful, but still fairly easily boarded out. The new Lands builds don't even run the stax elements anymore -- Ensnaring Bridge and the like -- so you're basically looking at taking out Mox Diamonds and Explorations, which Deed is better at anyway. Sorin comes in as an additional way to kill the opponent through Glacial Chasm lock. Needles and Surgicals are obvious.

Painter:

-Dromoka
-Meren
-2 Baneslayer
-Recluse
-Tracker
-2 P.Truths
(8)

+2 Grip
+2 Needle
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Surgical
(8)

Postboard they frequently become more staxxy with Ensnaring Bridges and other such nonsense. Dromoka and Baneslayers can't get through very easily, Meren is a useful deterrent to hard-Grindstoning, but otherwise kind of lackluster, Recluse isn't good vs this opponent, Tracker gets burned out very easily and grows too large to get through Bridge if he lives, and Truths costs too much time vs their burn plan. All of the board-ins are fine -- I opted out of the 3rd Slaughter since I couldn't come up with another good cut, but I'd be open to bringing it in. I'd like to leave Meren in, honestly, but I don't know what else I'd leave out for her.

Eldrazi:

-2 P.Truths
-Sigarda
(3)

+Elspeth
+2 Grip
(3)

Elspeth's -3 is massive here, and Grip can handle Revoker and other obnoxious lock pieces (Winter Orb, anyone?). Painful Truths is too slow here, and the lifeloss can be kind of dangerous against Reality Smasher chains. Sigarda flat out isn't necessary here -- the game can be won just as easily by Dromoka or Baneslayers, or Pernicious Deed, and she loses in combat to an awful lot of their creatures.

Death and Taxes:

-Meren
-Dromoka
-1 Path
(3)

+2 Grip
+Elspeth
(3)

Elspeth flooding 1/1s is very hard for them to deal with, especially since the tokens are white and our other creatures are green. Grip is obviously insane vs Revoker, Vial, equipment, etc. Meren and Dromoka are bad vs the 4x Karakas deck, and then I think that shaving 1 Path is probably correct? Could also be the Taiga to lean down on mana a little bit, not really sure what the last cut should be.

Infect:

-Sigarda
-Tireless
-Meren
-Dromoka
-1 Top
(5)

+2 Needle
+2 Grip
+P.Truths
(5)

This match basically comes down to stopping them in their tracks effectively, while beating down with Rhinos. Meren and Dromoka lose to Crop Rotation->Karakas, while the games don't last long enough for Tireless Tracker to accrue value. One Top gets shaved for this same reason - you can't really afford to sit there dicking with Top. Sigarda is a worse wincon than Baneslayers and Rhinos here.

ANT:

-Dromoka
-Meren
-3 Path
-2 Decay
-Sigarda
(8)

+3 Slaughter
+2 Surgical
+P.Truths
+2 Needle
(8)

I wasn't really happy with this, which is why I stopped working on this sideboard plan. Needles were a vague plan to squeeze in cards that are super fringe relevant (naming Polluted Delta to harm their mana base and slow them down, maybe naming LED to jedi mindtrick people into thinking that they can't use them even though they totally can). Slaughters, Surgicals, and Truths are all great, though. You take out the expensive top-end and the spot removal.

---------------------------

Again, I'm working on trying to come up with a better sideboard and then revising the plan from there, but that might give you some insight. I might be overboarding, but I don't feel like my thought processes are incorrect or irrational, so I'm not sure. I'm tempted to include the Abeyances (I have two on the way now -- one is even German!), since the splash between Miracles and Storm isn't exactly a common area to find, but I am admittedly worried that they won't come in against any other matchups. It's possible that I'm too worried about cards being good vs multiple decks, though, and a card being good vs 2 decks is good enough.

I dunno. I'm tired, so I'm not even sure if I'm fully coherent any more. I'm going to end this here now and I'll respond to/with further thoughts/comments tomorrow.

Echelon

05-14-2016, 12:32 AM

@Jain: I'd go with Rhino Fit. Just keep it nice and simple. Good luck!

@matt: Well look at that, @2 Sorin now? Wow!

Brael

05-14-2016, 12:50 AM

It's definitely possible that I'm overboarding in an attempt to make popular matchups win-more and in the process and destabilizing too much. Here's my notes from my 14-card sideboard I mentioned earlier:

I don't really see anything I disagree with, but I think that you might make yourself too threat light. I can definitely get behind taking out 1 power creatures because 1 power is so little that it might as well be 0 power, but I think that in the case of Miracles for example you're overlooking that even as a vanilla 3/4 Meren is still hitting the opponent. Anything that hits them is good, anything that stops Terminus is better.

When it comes to Shardless, I can't argue against what you're bringing in, but I think I can argue against what you're taking out. Therapy isn't bad against them. Their deck is mostly focused around 2 for 1's against you or cheating costs so they never actually pay all that much for their cards, and they all have prohibitive mana costs. Where Therapy comes in here is it's great at hitting Liliana on turn 1-2 because that's their only recurring source of advantage besides what's usually 1-2 JTMS, everything else is 1 shot. Therapy is also a great proactive answer to Goyf which is their only way to actually kill you quickly. If you can therapy their Goyf you can play fast and loose with a lot of your removal. If you're looking for something to take out instead I suggest the vets, but if you remove Vet you need to add in other ways to accelerate your mana.

When it comes to Delver, consider cutting the Carpets to go up to a playset of Deathrite Shaman. DRS swaps for vet pretty well giving us a lesser but 1 sided mana acceleration, it's a threat, and in some matches such as against Shardless it can be nice to be on DRS parity (or better if you've got some recursion like Meren).

What about DRS for Lands? I'm just throwing out suggestions here, I've never actually played against the deck and am completely clueless on recent variants. DRS can eat Loam targets however which reduces them to just Crop Rotation and Gamble to find their parts, it can eat Loam as well, and it fills the criteria of getting in damage through a Chasm lock.

Brael

05-14-2016, 01:23 AM

Some people struggle with Shardless BUG, others find Grixis Delver difficult, ANT/TES is my nemesis (partly b/c one of the worlds best Storm pilots just happens to frequent our LGS and also helps other Storm pilots there hone their skills). My record vs. that archetype is truly beyond dreadful. And I run the same amount of discard as anybody else. I've only recently acquired my Canonists though, so that might help the next time I face ANT/TES. Mind you, I've managed to lose after opening with T1 DRS followed up by T2 Surgical his cantrip (to look at his hand), Therapy on Infernal Tutor, flashback Therapy on Chain of Vapor, Gaddock Teeg (yes, that was my T2).

I guess the focus on those 2 particular MUs is b/c those are the ones I want to improve most and b/c there are very few other things I fear to face (ergo don't want to spend specific sideboard slots on. I'm fine with just having splash damage for those MUs). But just trust me on this one - the demanded overlap in the current requirements model is quite likely to fill in the nice-to-haves automatically.

Let me suggest an alternate build for a sideboard. Rather than worrying about specific cards to begin with, we try to come up with a requirements range on what we want to see. For example, we decided on needing X number of threats (I don't remember what X was anymore). What about identifying how many threats we need post board in the various matchups, and then based on that we know how much needs to come in and out. We can do the same for answers, for mana (DRS really pulls his weight here), and all the rest. And in the end we have a sideboard that can shift from a configuration of say 22 threats, 26 mana, 14 answers, 14 CA in the mainboard to say 30 threats, 24 mana, 10 answers, 10 CA postboard if we need to take an aggressive line but 18 threats, 26 mana, 18 answers, 18 CA if we need to take a controlling line.

rubblekill

05-14-2016, 01:51 AM

@Matt we are playing basically the same main deck, only difference is that I play Meren + ts instead of 2 sorin (pw are in my sb).
It is a very streamlined list isn't it?

pettdan

05-14-2016, 03:46 AM

@Arianrhod: Here are a few comments on your sb notes.

Lands:
Decay: lately I've met Confidant post sb from Dark Lands (that's what it's called? Need to head over to the lands thread), they also may play Molten Vortex over Punishing Fire (some more targets than other Lands builds), I'd be careful in bringing out all Decays.

Death and Taxes:
Path: One way to lose this matchup is by Mother + Revoker, another is Thalia + Rishadan Port. I'd run Path over Elspeth. Just my opinion.

Infect:
Tireless: This matchup imo is largely about drawing more removal than they draw threats, Tracker is perfect. You mull into a hand with good removal, empty your hand by playing removal and discard and then need one finisher. A finisher that lets you draw removal while beating down is perfect. Tracker > Rhino.

ANT:
Feels bad not having Thoughtseize to bring in, I rarely play Grips. As you wish.

rubblekill

05-14-2016, 03:53 AM

Jain_Mor

05-14-2016, 05:04 AM

I was just thinking that I don't even know if I want to dedicate 1-2 slots to grip anymore. The card is good but is less impactful than, say, an abeyance. And as a singleton I don't like grip that much because decks that play top (my main reason to play grip) have usually 3-4 of them so they always drop another one afterwards.
The splash damage to other decks is very low in my meta (good for lodestone golem? Probably, but I never see them luckily). So my conclusion would be to play 1 abeyance instead, which gets to be played against more decks and leads to more blowout situations, being a more impactful card overall.
Thoughts/opinions? (I don't play needles, remember that)

As you can see in the pictures I posted above, I abeyanced a terminus, it was beautiful and perfect and still didn't matter. I'm going to be trying REB in its place... but I do still like Abeyance, and I have never liked krosan grip, just too expensive and narrow, when you play decay/deed.sage anyway.

Arianrhod

05-14-2016, 07:08 AM

I don't like DRS vs Lands particularly, only because it dies to PFire/Molten Vortex activations. Might be fine if the Decays stay in // if the Grips come in with them, which it sounds like they might need to anyway?

Vet has been how I've been beating Shardless for basically forever. My entire strategy vs Shardless is just to jam as many Vets down their throat as possible, because they really just can't do anything about it at all. I'll test leaving the Therapies in and just running it back with no board. I wouldn't mind finding room for the walkers and the 3rd Truths, but I'll worry about that after seeing how Therapy feels postboard.

For DnT, Path is likely better than Abrupt Decay, actually. Thalia and Port can make it hard to cast Decay sometimes, and having the extra 1cmc for Mom is probably relevant. At that point it might just be better to shave the Taiga and go to 21 lands for the matchup. Kind of weird for the mana denial deck, but Taiga is literally a nonbasic Forest when Slaughters aren't coming in, so.

Tracker is worse than Rhino vs Submerge, and not having Trample could matter since they can afford to block aggressively (they only need one creature swinging). That said, I need little convincing to leave Tracker in. Card is great.

Not having Thoughtseize does indeed hurt vs storm. But, to be fair, I think storm is the only (or one of the only) matchups where passing on Thoughtseize is really hurtful.

On Grip: I've found Grip to be effective against Miracles, while simultaneously being a good security blank for a lot of the more random elements in the format, like Painter and Infect -- both of which are fairly popular at Mythic, and both of which I expect to see at the GP in reasonable numbers. Grip is also great at dealing with Phyrexian Revoker out of Death and Taxes and Eldrazi, which lets Deed wreck the rest of their deck. I could be talking out of Grip in exchange for different sideboard options as we discuss the topic further, but I just want to be clear that Grip /has/ been quite good for me.

Also, good luck today Jain and anyone else playing in the modo thingamajig.