[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[tons of fun]

Fair enough. If you're a wizard who can transmute shit to gold, I don't think any deckbuilding ideas I suggest are going to be relevant to you.

Like I actually take what u have t say into consideration just like with arion and I doo like some the thing u suggested and I am still on the back and fourth on the mystic
Especially since arion speaks highly of ur opions and views of the deck

So don't think I am ignoring or disregarding u as player or being a dick just thats all the parts of the deck have ran smoothly. For the most part I just wanted to try newer things to see if it just makes climb over the top

[sdematt]

Alrighty, for the sake of everyone's sanity, please follow these rules:

Proper grammar and syntax unless you're not a native English speaker. Capitals, periods, etc. I know this is the internet, but I'll be honest, I'll more likely to not read your post if you sound like you're lazy, even if you're not. I'm more than happy to help with any list, but please, make it easy for me. Otherwise, I'm just going to move on.

Mystic has been alright. I've liked the pressure and response it requires. Makes us less reactive. I think 2-3 is a nice number, similar to Maverick.

[sdematt]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Eternal Witness

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

3 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
2 Top
3 Decay
2 Deed
4 GSZ
4 Therapy

22 Lands (with Dryad Arbor, 2 Tower, 1 Taiga)

///

1 Teeg
1 Ooze
2 Slaughter Games
2 Blood Moon
2 Needle
1 Sorin, LOI/Relentless
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sigarda/Relentless
3 Thoughtseize

/////


Games might be fine now, might not. It's basically there to nug Miracles and combo as always, but if there's other suggestions, feel free. I think Moon is more than fine, considering it's faster than Ruination and we need something against Eldrazi as Junk.

[Brael]

This is the new list that I wanna playing and trying to figure out the side board now that I have a straight like
Thoughts questions

Many thoughts, none of them good. 5 5-6 drops is 4 too many, Mystic Snake on that manabase is a no go. Mystic Snake should be a no go regardless, you don't have anything else to do when holding open mana. Too many 1 of's and a bad curve for GSZ. No removal.

Let me sum it up this way. Legacy is a format where you can win with anything you want (even that horrible spider) but you have to pay the toll. This isn't EDH, and this deck is not mini-EDH. If you don't want to just die you MUST include a reasonable number of 2 out of the 3: Discard, removal, counterspells, and those things must be online by turn 2. Also, you need GY hate or you will lose to GY decks, and it can't be tutored for because tutoring is too slow, you must be able to draw it early.

Your list has no counterspells, no relevant removal, virtually no discard (and until you're good with Cabal Therapy it's only half a discard spell), and no GY hate.

[tons of fun]

Many thoughts, none of them good. 5+ drops is 4 too many, Mystic Snake on that manabase is a no go. Mystic Snake should be a no go regardless, you don't have anything else to do when holding open mana. Too many 1 of's and a bad curve for GSZ. No removal.

Let me sum it up this way. Legacy is a format where you can win with anything you want (even that horrible spider) but you have to pay the toll. This isn't EDH, and this deck is not mini-EDH. If you don't want to just die you MUST include a reasonable number of 2 out of the 3: Discard, removal, counterspells, and those things must be online by turn 2. Also, you need GY hate or you will lose to GY decks, and it can't be tutored for because tutoring is too slow, you must be able to draw it early.

Your list has no counterspells, no relevant removal, virtually no discard (and until you're good with Cabal Therapy it's only half a discard spell), and no GY hate.

well i dont have side board up yet , and i am plenty good witth therapy

[Brael]

well i dont have side board up yet , and i am plenty good witth therapy

Everything I mentioned, you need mainboard.

[tons of fun]

Everything I mentioned, you need mainboard.

i umderstand that but ur whining about the gy hate when thats in side board

[Ricardio]

i umderstand that but ur whining about the gy hate when thats in side board

Relax, people. We can have a discussion with new people and work together. Remember you are on a messageboard and connotation is perceived by the reader so deep breath and make this deck more competitive.

[Brael]

i umderstand that but ur whining about the gy hate when thats in side board

And you were asking for advice, you need interaction main board.

[tons of fun]

[QUOTE=Ricardio;958996]Relax, people. We can have a discussion with new people and work together. Remember you are on a messageboard and connotation is perceived by the reader so deep breath and make this deck more competitive.[/Qi am c


i am calm i shown on other post that i have a good deal in the competitive with this deck and yes i have no problem with people crit. thoughts i am just responding to them as i feel is apporiate

[Ricardio]

[QUOTE=Ricardio;958996]Relax, people. We can have a discussion with new people and work together. Remember you are on a messageboard and connotation is perceived by the reader so deep breath and make this deck more competitive.[/Qi am c


i am calm i shown on other post that i have a good deal in the competitive with this deck and yes i have no problem with people crit. thoughts i am just responding to them as i feel is apporiate

you cant have feelings on the internet

[tons of fun]

And you were asking for advice, you need interaction main board.

and yes some matches i need the interaction more then others but 80% i get game one board in the appropriate peice to give it that edge some matches i board in more counter aka combo decks some i board in the creture hate for the matches aka dnt jund sometime delver

[Faiiith]

Anyone heading to SCG Worchester?

[Arianrhod]

Anyone heading to SCG Worchester?

Ended up not being able to make it. Nobody else going from my area :(

[cavalrywolfpack]

I'll have to soend a lot if time catching up on replays of it. I won't be able to watch any of it due to my schedule, but hoepfully we see Nic Fit in action

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Arianrhod]

I'll have to soend a lot if time catching up on replays of it. I won't be able to watch any of it due to my schedule, but hoepfully we see Nic Fit in action

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I'll try to stream a league sometime in the next week or so and save it off, as well.

[Brael]

I'll have to soend a lot if time catching up on replays of it. I won't be able to watch any of it due to my schedule, but hoepfully we see Nic Fit in action

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Don't count on it. SCG has a habit of only showing tier 1 decks, and even then certain decks are more favored than others. Shardless, Miracles, Delver, and Storm are what they prefer to show.

[Faiiith]

Playing the list of the guy that 10-5'd the GP in a couple of competitive leagues. Seems pretty good, I actually like the 4 Rhino build more than JBone's list for some reason. I guess I felt like they helped me stablize vs Delver better than the Tireless trackers. I Also felt like my Miracles match-up wasn't too bad. Deed is just insane vs them. And the 4 Rhino build helps a lot because the lightening helix damage adds up over time if they keep putting them on the bottom of the library. I feel like Junk Pod (similar to the one I posted from Legacy Medicore League) is much better vs. Eldrazi but the ability to just run someone over with essentially 8 rhinos (if you count the green sun's) might be better overall.

[Echelon]

@tons of fun: 2 decklists from 2013 and 2014 are what you call proof that what you whipped up is good now..? Do we have to explain what a metagame is and how it changes over time..? I thought only Goblins pilots were this thickheaded.

@the new 2 mana guy: Obvious Danger Of Cool Things, BUT the longer the game drags out, the more real the cool stuff becomes. I don't know if a 4/4 would be enough to make a dent in the lategame though. 5 toughness is kinda the magical number where we want to be at. It might be something for BUG, as they have Strix to quickly fill up on card types in the GY. Maybe a SFM Fit card, since it goes well with P/T boosting equipment (thank you, trample).

@faiiith: That's what I said - Rhino Fit equals incredibly good times vs. the already good MUs of this deck. The problem is the bad MUs - you can't always dodge those.

@Navsi: Your analysis of the various X Fit flavors seem spot on to me!

[jbone2016]

Anyone heading to SCG Worchester?
I'm flying out there. I also need to bring hoogland's deck.


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[MysteryE]

Anyone heading to SCG Worchester?

Yes, I live in MA. so I will be at the SCG worcester main event.

[Echelon]

Some random thoughts, mostly concerning Eldritch Evolution: It allows for some pretty cool toolboxing where we get both an answer and a body.

For instance, Angel of Finality could become a thing. Whipe away a graveyard and start smashing face. All we really need to add is Eldrazi Displacer (or Temur Sabertooth as semi-replacement).

Bane of Progress could come in to wreck artifact/enchantment based decks, Magister of Worth to wreck big creature boards. In the MB these cards probably should be Reclamation Sage/Acidic Slime (probably not the Slime, but I'm spitballing here now anyways) and Bone Shredder/Shriekmaw.

Now, how to deal with Planeswalkers..? Sylvan Primordial and Angel of Despair seem like the cheapest way to do this with ETB-triggers. Too mana intensive for me though. Maybe w/ GSZ -> Empath -> Tasigur/Gurmag Angler.

Heliod, God of the Sun could be a tutor target to deal with Miracles. It isn't hit by anything they can throw at you (unless they run Council's Judgment, but in that case what can you do..?) and can create 1 token/turn for a 5 turn or so clock that possibly answers Jace too.

Vs. fast combo the card isn't going to help us though, since it's both too slow and they use Chain of Vapor (and friends) as an answer. There just aren't any cards that have both Shroud/Hexproof and are relevent vs. those decks.

Concluding: Eldritch Evolution might just be what we need to shore up the Miracles & Eldrazi MU and while further cementing our position vs. anyFair.dec. If that's the case, now we just have to overcome anyCombo.dec. I've got a lot of testing to do.

[JemberaMakoa]

Though I have been ghosting this site for a while, reading through a lot of this Primer in particular (as I have became a big fan of Nic Fit as my growth and taste in Legacy continues to evolve), this is my first post and I have a couple of questions to ask and in need of a bit of advise from those with a stronger expertise in this deck. I run a Junk version of the deck and enjoy it immensely. I have an Invitational Qualifier coming up this weekend and there are a few things that I am hesitant on. The IQ I am going to, from what others have said about this shop's previous Legacy IQ, was a smaller event that had zero Show and Tell variants as well as zero ANT players present. That is good news for a Nic Fit player; however, you can never be too prepared, right?

Here's the list as I have it now, a few changes that I am considering to follow.

___________________

Creatures (15):

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk

Sorcery (11):

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truth's
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants (5):

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments (3):

3 Pernicious Deed

Artifacts (3):

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers (1):

Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Lands (22):

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

- - - - -

Sideboard (15):

3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless


___________________

Some changes that I have been thinking of making to the deck is taking Siege Rhino down to 3 to put room in for a second Tireless Tracker. I really enjoy 4 Rhinos in the deck, but is it safe to cut one to add another Tireless Tracker? Both are incredible at what they do, one getting out of control and netting awesome attrition value while the other is simply an awesome body with a solid effect to back it up.

Sorin, Grim Nemesis is a pretty cool card in the deck, but would I be better off moving either the Garruk Relentless or Elspeth, Knight-Errant in the SB to the main and simply taking Sorin out of the picture? This move frees up an extra slot in the 15 to allow more options. How powerful has those that played Sorin found him to be in their matches outside of Miracles?

Speaking of the sideboard, something I have considered is moving to the Slaughter Games package and taking one of the Phyrexian Tower's out for a Taiga. I know that Slaughter Games helps out quite a bit against the Show and Tell decks and Storm matches, but what are some other really good matches to bring the card in against? If I go the Slaughter package in the side, I don't want it to be simply dead if there are zero Show and Tell or ANT players at the IQ again (though better safe and sorry, right?)...

Overall, it's just a bit of fine tuning to different parts of the deck. Any suggestions that could be offered, like if I am missing a huge flaw in the design, would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Echelon]

@Jembera: Seems like a fine list. You could also trade in Maelstrom Pulse or Thragtusk for a second Tracker, whatever tickles your fancy.

Big Sorin is a wonderful card. The times I've had it hit the field, it turned into a roughly 3 card difference before it hit the dirt (either killing opposing creatures or getting me extra cards).

[Jain_Mor]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THAT'S how you make a first post in a thread. Welcome Jembera!

Seems like Meren isn't so hot in your list, not many cheap creatures that will die, no abor SFM or STE and already 4 rhinos. It's a card advantage card, I'd cut her for your second tracker easy.

Regarding Sorin... Your deck already had lots of top end, I'd probably cut it for something cheaper too.

[Echelon]

@Jain: Lol! You're right about Meren in his list. Mayhaps cut Sorin, Meren and Maelstrom Pulse/Thragtusk to go up to 4 Tracker..? CA & Rhinos FTW!

[Navsi]

4 Siege Rhino
~ other reasonable creature package

~ standard spells
2 Painful Truths

~ standard removal

Sorin, Grim Nemesis

22 lands, 2 Phyrexian Tower

- - - - -

3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless


___________________

Rhino -> Tracker
Cutting Sorin
Slaughter Games


No SnT or ANT is nice. Are there other combo decks, like Belcher, TinFins, or Reanimator? Those could be pretty bad news for you.

Personally I've never seen the appeal of 4-Rhino. If you're against a lot of fair decks it is indeed fabulous, though. If you're expecting a lot of Delver variants, Burn, DnT and Miracles, though, I'd be tempted to run 2-3 Thragtusks instead. Speeding up your clock is less relevant because of the lack of fast combo, and being a great card against Miracles rather than an awful one helps a whole lot.

IMO If you're running multiple Tireless Trackers (which you should be, especially in that meta) you don't need Painful Truths. Particularly if you're expecting more decks that threaten your life total. I'd go down to 1 or 0, with 1-2 Tireless Trackers.

You want more Surgical Extractions in the side, in my personal opinion. It's great against the combo decks that otherwise wreck you (give you some amount of game against Reanimator, too) and is also good against Miracles - if you can take their Terminus, Thrags and Rhinos are suddenly a really big problem.

If you're not expecting much Storm, I'd swap the Ethersworn Canonist out of the side. Extraction is a fine replacement (works against Storm anyway, after all). I'd also drop the RIP for the same again, since there's no point hosing your own graveyard if you don't have to. RIP is a lot worse now anyway since a lot of the combo decks run Abrupt Decays, and isn't as good against some lists like Miracles.

Personally if I was gonna run a PW maindeck I'd be tempted to go for Elspeth, Sun's Champion before Sorin, since she's better against Eldrazi and almost as good against Miracles while stabilising absurdly well against creature decks. I'd be tempted to swap the Sorin for an Elspeth SC and switch the Elspeth KE in the sideboard for a Sorin LoI - who is, incidentally, great in combination with Elspeth SC.

Meren could be a cut as well, by the way. You aren't running Dryad Arbor, which she is good with. You already have a ton of 4-drops with all your Rhinos, and she doesn't want to get Swords-ed and Karakas-ed very much, so if you're expecting a lot of DnT and Miracles she won't do much. You don't have a Vindicate to remove a Karakas so there isn't really much you can do about it.

[Gideonartra]

Hello friends. Like Jembera, I've been lurking in this thread for a while (about 6 months) and thought it was time I shared my list. I certainly don't claim to be an expert so I would greatly appreciate any comments or criticism you have.

Finding out that Birthing Pod (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Birthing Pod) was viable in Legacy, I started building the BUG Pod version of Nic Fit listed in the primer and this is the list I'm currently running:

-~- BUG Pod Fit -~-

Land (21):
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creature (23):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan

Spells (16):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Birthing Pod
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15):
1 Minister of Pain
1 Notion Thief
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
2 Invasive Surgery
4 Force of Will

Creature curve:
1-drops: 5 xxxxx
2-drops: 6 xxxxxx
3-drops: 5 xxxxx
4-drops: 3 xxx
5-drops: 2 xx
6-drops: 1 x

My local Legacy scene (Melbourne, Australia) only got going late last year thanks to the help of Sean Brown who now writes for MTGGoldfish. Being relatively new, the meta is about 10-15% DnT right now and so I'm playing 2 Dread of Night (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread of Night) in the board. Aside from that the meta is rather diverse but notably almost no one plays Miracles or Eldrazi.

Are there are any obvious deck building mistakes anyone can see? For instance,
- is three 4-drops too few for a pod variant? I've certainly felt constrained at this slot in the pod chain before.
- does the deck need more ways to consistently hit turn 2 pod?
- should Grave Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grave Titan) be switched for a blue 6-drop to maximize the consistency of the Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will) side board plan? I've tried Consecrated Sphinx (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Consecrated Sphinx) but it just wasn't as game ending when podded into.
- is Recurring Nightmare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Recurring Nightmare) too cute and should be replaced by Birthing Pod (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Birthing Pod) #3?
- is Invasive Surgery (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Invasive Surgery) even good?
- is 19 blue cards after side boarding for Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will) enough?

Any recommendations about the creature package or the sideboard cards you have I'd be happy to try out.

Now this list certainly wasn't what I started with 6 months ago. After picking up my playset of Veteran Explorer (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Veteran Explorer)s, the very first thing I did was add a bunch of janky combos to the deck. Eventually I settled on an OmniRector Pod list similar to the BUG list above but with a light splash for white. Here's the list in all its terrible glory:

-~- OmniRector Pod -~-

Lands (21):
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creature (24):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells (16):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Birthing Pod
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Omniscience

Sideboard (15):
1 Minister of Pain
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Notion Thief
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Invasive Surgery

This deck plays out very similar to the straight BUG list above but with less consistency and a combo kill. That combo kill being
1. Pod into Academy Rector (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Academy Rector).
2. Pod Academy Rector (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Academy Rector) into Sidisi, Undead Vizier (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sidisi, Undead Vizier).
3. Put Omniscience (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Omniscience) into play with Rector's death trigger.
4a. If you suspect opponent has counter magic then fetch Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Emrakul, the Aeons Torn) with Sidisi's exploit trigger. Cast Emrakul, take an extra turn and probably win.
4b. If the opponent doesn't have counter magic then fetch Recurring Nightmare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Recurring Nightmare) with Sidisi's exploit trigger. Presumably there is a Baleful Strix (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Baleful Strix) on the board or in the graveyard at this point and with any other creature on the board Nightmare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Recurring Nightmare) + Omniscience (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Omniscience) lets you draw your deck finding Thragtusk (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thragtusk) to gain infinite life and make infinite 3/3s or just be boring and end the game with Murderous Redcap (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Murderous Redcap).

Drawing Sidisi (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sidisi, Undead Vizier), Omniscience (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Omniscience) or Emrakul (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Emrakul, the Aeons Torn) is so bad that playing 4 Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm) here is a necessity, so a straight Junk version is not really possible. Omniscience (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Omniscience) is a particularly terrible draw, but it is possible to hardcast if it comes to that. I'm not saying this deck is good, but it's certainly fun.

Also, I thought I might include some of my initial thoughts on Eldritch Evolution (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eldritch Evolution). Between Pod (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Birthing Pod) and Evolution (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Eldritch Evolution) the pod variants might be interested in death triggers almost as much as ETB triggers. Some low CMC cards that come to mind:
Liliana, Heretical Healer (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Liliana, Heretical Healer), Voice of Resurgence (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Voice of Resurgence), Hallowed Spiritkeeper (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hallowed Spiritkeeper), Matter Reshaper (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Matter Reshaper), Solemn Simulacrum (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Solemn Simulacrum), Mogg War Marshal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mogg War Marshal).

[Ralf]

Hello friends. Like Jembera, I've been lurking in this thread for a while (about 6 months) and thought it was time I shared my list. I certainly don't claim to be an expert so I would greatly appreciate any comments or criticism you have.

Finding out that Birthing Pod (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Birthing Pod) was viable in Legacy, I started building the BUG Pod version of Nic Fit listed in the primer and this is the list I'm currently running:

-~- BUG Pod Fit -~-

Land (21):
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creature (23):
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan

Spells (16):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Birthing Pod
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15):
1 Minister of Pain
1 Notion Thief
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
2 Invasive Surgery
4 Force of Will

Creature curve:
1-drops: 5 xxxxx
2-drops: 6 xxxxxx
3-drops: 5 xxxxx
4-drops: 3 xxx
5-drops: 2 xx
6-drops: 1 x

My local Legacy scene (Melbourne, Australia) only got going late last year thanks to the help of Sean Brown who now writes for MTGGoldfish. Being relatively new, the meta is about 10-15% DnT right now and so I'm playing 2 Dread of Night (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Dread of Night) in the board. Aside from that the meta is rather diverse but notably almost no one plays Miracles or Eldrazi.

Are there are any obvious deck building mistakes anyone can see? For instance,
- is three 4-drops too few for a pod variant? I've certainly felt constrained at this slot in the pod chain before.
- does the deck need more ways to consistently hit turn 2 pod?
- should Grave Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grave Titan) be switched for a blue 6-drop to maximize the consistency of the Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will) side board plan? I've tried Consecrated Sphinx (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Consecrated Sphinx) but it just wasn't as game ending when podded into.
- is Recurring Nightmare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Recurring Nightmare) too cute and should be replaced by Birthing Pod (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Birthing Pod) #3?
- is Invasive Surgery (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Invasive Surgery) even good?
- is 19 blue cards after side boarding for Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will) enough?

Any recommendations about the creature package or the sideboard cards you have I'd be happy to try out.



Welcome !

Thanks for your wonderful post.

I have played BUG Pod until I switched to Junk Pod.

Here are some food for thoughts:
- The Meren + Shriekmaw package can be dropped altogether. It is sometimes insane but eventually rather cute and slow.
- As you pointed out, BUG tends to struggle against D&T (mainly because of Mirran + revoker on deed), why not trying a 1-of Doomwake Giant MD. With Minister of Pain in the side, you double up your hate vs swarm decks.
- I would play Sower MD. It is better than Master of the Wild Hunt.
- I would entirely cut MotWH. The card itself is great but rather so-so in a POD shell as it doesn't provide any EtB trigger.
- GSZ is not at its best in a blue shell. I'll try to cut 2 of them and just keep 1. You could replace them with 1/2 Ponder & 0/1 diabolic intent.
- I would also play another DRS and another POD. The blue shell is all about ramping or finding POD as fast as possible. So in a way, yes I will increase my chance to get a T2/T3 POD.
- I would avoid playing Vendilion MD. I do love the card as well but "UU" really is evil (in a deck that usually wants a UBG as its first 3 lands).
- Keep Grave Titan MD. That's the ALL STAR creature.
- With only 1 GSZ and no more Meren, I would also drop the Arbor for the 3rd DRS.
- I'm not so sure about Tracker in a Pod shell. Trinket Mage with a small tuto package (EE, SDT for MD and CoTV + Pithing for SB) might be an overall better choice.
- Concerning your SB, I'll definitely play some Thoughtseize / Riptide Pilferer (for the blue count) / Chalice with the Trinket idea. I'll also add the Vendilion and another GLE (Glen Elendra is such a beast...). Invasive is fine. Minister of Pain or Golgary Charm also is. Just add a couple of Surgical Extraction and call it a day !

Edit: Unfortunately there is no outstanding "Pod" creature in BUG @ CMC 4. The best one might still be "Murderous Redcap" (Obviously GLE is also great but not for the same reasons).

Edit 2: @ Navsi : I'm afraid but Gobelin is an awfully bad MU for Nic Fit. Between 35 to 40 %, maximum. They make too much profit of our dying explorer and you advance too much their gameplan that you usually die in one blow (usually the same turn they reveal 3 or 4 goblins on Ringleader).

[Brael]

I don't know if this is the deck for it, but Dark Salvation looks very legit to me and I'm almost certainly going to play it somewhere. It's probably at it's best in Legacy which has the smallest creatures on average.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/125/530/636033971658360616.jpeg

At X=1 it's a 3 mana 2 for 1, at X=2 it's a 5 mana 3 for 1, and at X=3 it's a 7 mana 4 for 1. We actually have the ramp to make it strong too, plus it's splashable, and I like that it's a great hit on Bob. The only real downside is that we don't run any other Zombies to let it cheaply kill a flipped Delver or something.

[Gideonartra]

@Ralf: Thanks for all the advice. I really do appreciate it. Why did you choose to switch to Junk over BUG? Baleful Strix is so good, I couldn't imagine playing pod without it.

I like playing Shriekmaw as a terror effect which can also be podded into. The combination with Meren feels great once it gets going, but you're right; it is very slow. I haven't seen many pod lists playing Bone Shredder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bone Shredder), what are your thoughts about it?

Master of the Wild Hunt and Tracker were in there to make GSZ have some more late game targets, but I'll try cutting them if the deck is focused more on pod. Truth be told, I don't think I podded into Tracker once.

With the changes you recommended here is the list I'm going to try tonight at our weekly Legacy event:

Lands (21):
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower

Creatures (22):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Thragtusk
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Grave Titan

Spells (17):
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Birthing Pod
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15):
1 Minister of Pain
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
2 Riptide Pilferer
4 Force of Will

I haven't added the Trinket Mage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Trinket Mage) package to this list. It's certainly something I want to try but one step at a time.

[Brael]

Some changes that I have been thinking of making to the deck is taking Siege Rhino down to 3 to put room in for a second Tireless Tracker. I really enjoy 4 Rhinos in the deck, but is it safe to cut one to add another Tireless Tracker? Both are incredible at what they do, one getting out of control and netting awesome attrition value while the other is simply an awesome body with a solid effect to back it up.

That is my preferred build right now. I'm on what we were calling SE Fit. I don't think anyone else who posts in the thread plays it but I found it to work well. The only thing I haven't really liked is Siege Rhino, but after trying both PW's and SFM's I've come around to the fact that it's probably a necessary evil. I think I like this swap, my swap came from another card but I don't remember off hand which it was. I'm a big fan of having multiple Trackers.


Speaking of the sideboard, something I have considered is moving to the Slaughter Games package and taking one of the Phyrexian Tower's out for a Taiga. I know that Slaughter Games helps out quite a bit against the Show and Tell decks and Storm matches, but what are some other really good matches to bring the card in against?

If I remember correctly it was originally adopted for Miracles as an answer to JTMS.


Hello friends. Like Jembera, I've been lurking in this thread for a while (about 6 months) and thought it was time I shared my list. I certainly don't claim to be an expert so I would greatly appreciate any comments or criticism you have.
Are there are any obvious deck building mistakes anyone can see? For instance,
- is three 4-drops too few for a pod variant? I've certainly felt constrained at this slot in the pod chain before.
- does the deck need more ways to consistently hit turn 2 pod?
- should Grave Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grave Titan) be switched for a blue 6-drop to maximize the consistency of the Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will) side board plan? I've tried Consecrated Sphinx (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Consecrated Sphinx) but it just wasn't as game ending when podded into.
- is Recurring Nightmare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Recurring Nightmare) too cute and should be replaced by Birthing Pod (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Birthing Pod) #3?
- is Invasive Surgery (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Invasive Surgery) even good?
- is 19 blue cards after side boarding for Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force of Will) enough?

Any recommendations about the creature package or the sideboard cards you have I'd be happy to try out.


I was on BUG Pod for quite awhile but I eventually adopted Rhinos. I played BUG Pod for about a year, it's a very popular variant for people new to the deck (did it myself) but I think it lacks the raw power we need. It's just a bit too durdly and I found the clock to be a real issue against decks like Miracles and Shardless.

What I learned from the deck is that the creature slots are really tight. Legacy as a format carries a pretty heavy amount of overhead in terms of spells you need. You have to have interaction against the combo decks or just to stop someone from going over the top of you. That usually takes the form of 4 Therapy, 4 GSZ, and 12 other interaction spells. On top of that you have the land count, we all seem to have settled on 22. I'm skeptical that it's the right number but it's what people go with for now (in fact I run 4 GSZ+Arbor, and some DRS specifically because it's like having 28 mana sources in the deck... a number I am much more comfortable with). Because of the 20 spells plus 22 land, I've found that 19 creatures is the highest a Pod deck can reasonably have.

With respect to your curve that means you're probably looking at something like
1 - 6
2 - 3
3 - 4
4 - 3
5 - 2
6 - 1

What you'll notice is this means few 2's even though Baleful Strix is the biggest draw to blue. I'm also of the opinion that jumping places on the curve is the best thing you can do with Pod. For example, I like Pod into Trinket Mage into Hangarback Walker into DRS + Tokens. Off the top of my head I don't remember all the pod chains but you could check my posting history to find them.

For your questions:
I think you have an appropriate number of fours, you're just running into the slot problem that the variant has.
If you want to T2 Pod more often I would put a Dryad Arbor into the manabase. The problem though is that Arbor gets exponentially better with 4 GSZ, but that comes at the expense of more slots which makes your Pods worse.
If you want a blue finisher look into Frost Titan, that's what I ran as my 6. If you've never tried it before, you may be surprised to learn that most of the format just can't handle a Frost Titan. His taxing effect combined with tapping down lands/blockers lets him get through most boards and stops most decks from being able to kill him. Vet+him may seem a bit contradictory but it works. My strongest hands were actually the ones where I could just legit cast a Frost Titan on turn 3.

As far as recommendations, I'll repeat my Trinket Mage suggestion. You can use the tutored cards to sneak in an extra creature with Hangarback, and the tutoring opens up a pretty wide array of options. Pithing Needles, Engineered Explosives, and so on. It's a type of versatility that other Pod decks just don't have, and there are even solid SB options for the package.

The Trinket Mage package I found myself liking was 1 Hangarback, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Engineered Explosives, 1 SDT, and potentially 1 Voltaic Key.



Here are some food for thoughts:
- The Meren + Shriekmaw package can be dropped altogether. It is sometimes insane but eventually rather cute and slow.
- As you pointed out, BUG tends to struggle against D&T (mainly because of Mirran + revoker on deed), why not trying a 1-of Doomwake Giant MD. With Minister of Pain in the side, you double up your hate vs swarm decks.
- I would play Sower MD. It is better than Master of the Wild Hunt.
- I would entirely cut MotWH. The card itself is great but rather so-so in a POD shell as it doesn't provide any EtB trigger.
- GSZ is not at its best in a blue shell. I'll try to cut 2 of them and just keep 1. You could replace them with 1/2 Ponder & 0/1 diabolic intent.
- I would also play another DRS and another POD. The blue shell is all about ramping or finding POD as fast as possible. So in a way, yes I will increase my chance to get a T2/T3 POD.
- I would avoid playing Vendilion MD. I do love the card as well but "UU" really is evil (in a deck that usually wants a UBG as its first 3 lands).
- Keep Grave Titan MD. That's the ALL STAR creature.
- With only 1 GSZ and no more Meren, I would also drop the Arbor for the 3rd DRS.
- I'm not so sure about Tracker in a Pod shell. Trinket Mage with a small tuto package (EE, SDT for MD and CoTV + Pithing for SB) might be an overall better choice.
- Concerning your SB, I'll definitely play some Thoughtseize / Riptide Pilferer (for the blue count) / Chalice with the Trinket idea. I'll also add the Vendilion and another GLE (Glen Elendra is such a beast...). Invasive is fine. Minister of Pain or Golgary Charm also is. Just add a couple of Surgical Extraction and call it a day !


I think all of these suggestions can work, but I have an alternative take.

Meren+Shriekmaw is kind of slow, but I actually really like Stronghold+Shriekmaw. It requires some manabase fiddling but it's a very powerful combination, if not a bit unreliable to draw them both together.
I disagree with the GSZ opinion. The real challenge of BUG is in trying to balance out the blue slots for FoW (if you use it) with the green needs for GSZ. GSZ however is very much worth running because it lets you run the deck as if you have far more lands than you actually do. Our gameplan optimally requires around 30 mana sources (maybe even more for Pod because they have a higher curve), and that's just not reasonable unless you use the Arbor trick to cheat a bit.
The Trinket Mage plan is key to making BUG work in my opinion, it keeps the blue count up and it lets you cheat a bit on your interaction count because the Mage adds both a body and a source of interaction if you find artifact based removal.

[Echelon]

That is my preferred build right now. I'm on what we were calling SE Fit. I don't think anyone else who posts in the thread plays it but I found it to work well.

...

Meren+Shriekmaw is kind of slow, but I actually really like Stronghold+Shriekmaw. It requires some manabase fiddling but it's a very powerful combination, if not a bit unreliable to draw them both together.
I disagree with the GSZ opinion. The real challenge of BUG is in trying to balance out the blue slots for FoW (if you use it) with the green needs for GSZ. GSZ however is very much worth running because it lets you run the deck as if you have far more lands than you actually do. Our gameplan optimally requires around 30 mana sources (maybe even more for Pod because they have a higher curve), and that's just not reasonable unless you use the Arbor trick to cheat a bit.
The Trinket Mage plan is key to making BUG work in my opinion, it keeps the blue count up and it lets you cheat a bit on your interaction count because the Mage adds both a body and a source of interaction if you find artifact based removal.

The problem with SE Fit is that nobody wants to play it b/c it forces us to make choices we're not willing to make, even though it's very likely the most stable, consistent list you'll ever run.

As for Meren + Shriekmaw - try Karador + Shriekmaw (or any ETB-trigger). Plays well with Pod b/c you can get it via Fierce Empath (which you can then Pod away) and becomes cheaper b/c you dump creatures in your GY every chance you get.

On a sidenote - did anyone see the "Return all lands from all graveyards to the battlefield tapped" card..? Smells like combo to me!

[Navsi]

Stunning Growth - this looks pretty good.

Would it be faster to mill a lethal Valakut than to just get to 7 lands? Might be doable. Need good self-mill options though. Is there much Jund has, short of just running the ton of Grisly Salvage variants they've printed now?

Edit: Squandered Resources is pretty good with this card.

[Ralf]

Stunning Growth - this looks pretty good.

Would it be faster to mill a lethal Valakut than to just get to 7 lands? Might be doable. Need good self-mill options though. Is there much Jund has, short of just running the ton of Grisly Salvage variants they've printed now?

Edit: Squandered Resources is pretty good with this card.

I don't see it working:
- Harder to setup (speed is key)
- Impacted by any standard gravehate where Libraryhate almost doesn't exist yet (at least for land type of cards)

Edit: It would require a Dread Return type of card but for lands only so that we could build something using Dredge tools.

[Echelon]

@Navsi: Gather the Pack and/or Grisly Salvage/Scout the Border/Vessel of Nascency and a large number of Eternal Witnesses..? And Life from the Loam and Volrath's Stronghold (into Witness) so you can get your Stunning Growth back.

Oh, and Sudden Reclamation.

Although that way you're pretty much running some form of Aggro Loam.

[Navsi]

Yeah. I've been building some lists and filling the yard quickly enough requires too many dredge type cards to be worth it. I don't think it's worth running over Scapeshift, since Scape puts deckbuilding pressure on the manabase, but leaves the rest of the deck relatively alone. This thing puts the same (or more, since you need to fill the yard) pressure on the manabase and also makes you play a load of awful enablers.

The upside over Scapeshift is that it still does something (ramp you a load) when you don't have lethal available, whereas Scapeshift does nothing. I guess that's something, but it's probably not enough.

[Echelon]

Yeah. I've been building some lists and filling the yard quickly enough requires too many dredge type cards to be worth it.

It's more that there are more efficient ways to fill your yard with easier ways to kill your opponent.

[Ralf]

@ Thread:

First of all, here is an updated list for ABZAN PW Fit Control (initial list on p.312 for those interested) that I'm currently testing:

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Arlinn Kord
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Oath of Nissa
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Abeyance
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast

The sideboard is still under construction as it takes time to build something properly as there are so many MUs to be tested.
The main changes are about the addition of the fourth color: RED.

The idea behind was to upgrade (or at least to assess whether or not it is an upgrade) the following previous choices:

1) Master of the Wild Hunt into Huntmaster
2) Sorin, LoI into Arlinn Kord
3) Painful Truth into Oath of Nissa

Without spoiling:
1) Huntmaster > Master
2) Too soon to tell if Arlinn is worse or better than Sorin.
3) Oath of Nissa is very promising so far as it basically smooths your draws, acts as a ponder "like" in a deck with so few manipulation, grows the yard for threshold purpose when drawn in multiples & helps you cast PW with really weird mana setup which is always a big element of surprise.

Yet the deck is still under construction and requires loads more tests before drawing any meaningful conclusions.
But if you ask if it is viable, in its current form: Yes it is.

Anyway, feel free to chime in and share your experience or ideas if you have any.


Secondly, I have been doing some due diligence for people about the new green "POD" spoiler going live in July.

Here is my take (light proxy-testing only, but tested nonetheless):

1 Horizon Canopy
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Academy Rector
1 Archon of Justice
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Obstinate Baloth
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Birthing Pod

1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares

2 Eldritch Evolution
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Doomwake Giant
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

Eldritch Evolution is a very nice addition. 4-of is not reliable enough but it will eventually take a slot or two in some future POD lists without any doubt.
Yet it is still to early to tell if the card will break our archetype but tricks & speed are there. And the latters matter. Period.

Anyway, this list is on the edge of the very control side of life, but it is not very far from what we might tend to in this kind of deck.
For those (too young or too lazy or "pick your weapon of choice") that have never tried any control deck involving Yosei. Now is the time.

The list is still very raw (2 Yosei might be needed but two 6 drops in a list without brainstorm is like committing a suicide if you ask me) but it has shown some very promising stuff.
The X=0 in the new green tutor is more powerful than I firstly thought about it. (Especially versus Combo decks)

Here again, feel free to express any feelings you may have or ask any question.

Happy to discuss.

Cheers all,

Ralf.

[Ralf]

@Ralf: Thanks for all the advice. I really do appreciate it. Why did you choose to switch to Junk over BUG? Baleful Strix is so good, I couldn't imagine playing pod without it.

I like playing Shriekmaw as a terror effect which can also be podded into. The combination with Meren feels great once it gets going, but you're right; it is very slow. I haven't seen many pod lists playing Bone Shredder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Bone Shredder), what are your thoughts about it?

Master of the Wild Hunt and Tracker were in there to make GSZ have some more late game targets, but I'll try cutting them if the deck is focused more on pod. Truth be told, I don't think I podded into Tracker once.

With the changes you recommended here is the list I'm going to try tonight at our weekly Legacy event:


Hello,

Sorry I missed your answer.
This thread is moving at a pace that I can barely keep up with.

Why did I move from BUG to JUNK Pod ?
-> Because SFM>Strix. At least that was the case during some time. This has to be re-assessed since the Eldrazi's invasion.
-> Because equipping a Sigarda with a sword / Jitte / BSK feels like magical christmas land.
-> Because I like wind of changes.

Is it better ? No, just different.

I wish you luck for your event.

Crush'em ALL !!!

[Ulysse95]

Stunning Growth - this looks pretty good.

Would it be faster to mill a lethal Valakut than to just get to 7 lands? Might be doable. Need good self-mill options though. Is there much Jund has, short of just running the ton of Grisly Salvage variants they've printed now?

Edit: Squandered Resources is pretty good with this card.

Gitrog is magic.
And with Dakmor Salvage + some zentithable way to discard like wild mongrel (have you seen the new one?) it's a one time dredge for all the deck.

Otherwise, have you seen the new enchantement Sigarda's blessing? (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte?ref=emn041) Seems great in a SFM list.

[Navsi]

Gitrog is great.

However, Dakmor Salvage combo is IMO not worth it. I've tried it multiple times now, but it has several major issues.

- Dakmor Salvage does nothing without Gitrog.
- Vulnerable to yard hate and creature removal, including Deathrite Shaman.
- 3 card combos are sloooooow. 2 card combos like Archangel + Spike Feeder are already clunky.

Sigarda's Blessing is okay (as in, does cool stuff) but I don't think its effect is worth a card. Flashing in a SoFaF in response to an Abrupt Decay is hilarious, but even there we still only got a 1-for-1 because we spent a whole card on Sigarda's Bless.

[JemberaMakoa]

Thank you to everyone whom made suggestions and gave comments. Today I took the time to do a bit of researching and weighing considerations that were given here and did make some changes to the list. I feel they overall strengthen/solidify certain MU for me while freeing up clutter to add attention items to help against MU's where I may not have necessarily the best chance of winning.

the changes I made:

MB-

-1 Siege Rhino
-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
-1 Painful Truths
-1 Phyrexian Tower

+1 Tireless Tracker
+1 Gaddock Teeg (From SB to MB)
+1 Garruk Relentless (From SB to MB)
+1 Savannah

SB-

-1 Rest in Peace
-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

___________

With what I took from the MB, I felt I could safely cut down to 3 Siege Rhino's to make room for a 2nd Tireless Tracker. Tracker has always been a great play, when I could see it as a singleton in the deck. The idea of having it moved up to 2, as the attrition value and potential threat range of the card is marvelous. Because I was putting in a 2nd Tracker, I felt i was save taking Painful Truth's down to 1. I also removed the Meren because I felt that I wanted to have Gaddock Teeg in the main deck. There are some matches that he either shuts down quite a few plays fairly well or does buy me the time I need to get things rolling. With Meren gone, I traded out the 2nd Phyrexian Tower for a 2nd Savannah as I had 2 Towers sort of as a combo with her as a means to quickly build up XP Counters and abuse the hell out of Siege Rhino's. Also a 2nd Savannah means another fetch target, which adds a tiny bit more consistency to Tireless Tracker. Garruk Relentless has been also moved to the main because of the pressure he allows me to put on some decks, in particular Miracles.

The side board I decided to take the Rest in Peace out and move a 2nd Surgical Extraction in. Rest in Peace does nearly eliminate threats from a lot of sources. 2 Surgical Extraction at least gives me the option of what to remove from threats that my opponent has and could potentially cripple their deck design if done correctly. And it's still graveyard hate. Ethersworn Canonist to help against the Storm MU and a few others with Spirit of the Labyrinth really there for those decks that like to draw a lot of cards (I love making their brainstorm's bad).

I also evolved Elspeth to her larger form because having the ability to go toe to toe with Eldrazi by destroying all their creatures seems extremely healthful. Furthermore she is also anther strong threat to bring in against the Miracles match, a few other decks too.

Overall I like these changes. I feel they help bring a bit more consistency to the deck by keeping strong what i am good at and making areas I am bad at less bad and hopefully increase my ability to survive through them terrible MU's.

Here's the new 75:

- - - - - -

Creatures (15):

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk

Sorcery (10):

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truth's
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants (5):

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments (3):

3 Pernicious Deed

Artifacts (3):

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers (2):

Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Garruk Relentless

Lands (22):

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

- - - - -

Sideboard (15):

3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

[Echelon]

With Meren gone, I traded out the 2nd Phyrexian Tower for a 2nd Savannah as I had 2 Towers sort of as a combo with her as a means to quickly build up XP Counters and abuse the hell out of Siege Rhino's.

That isn't what you use the second Tower for... You have it to increase the number of T1 Forest -> Veteran Explorer, T2 Phyrexian Tower -> go nuts draws you have. Building up XP counters with Meren happens accidentally at best, you don't plan for it to happen. There's just too much that can go wrong for that to work (and takes far too long to set up). You pretty much just play Meren for the CA she provides, all else is just icing on the cake.

The rest of your changes are fine, they do help you with your Miracles MU. Just be careful of Gaddock Teeg though, he has a habit of messing with your own plans as soon as he hits the field.

[JemberaMakoa]

That isn't what you use the second Tower for... You have it to increase the number of T1 Forest -> Veteran Explorer, T2 Phyrexian Tower -> go nuts draws you have. Building up XP counters with Meren happens accidentally at best, you don't plan for it to happen. There's just too much that can go wrong for that to work (and takes far too long to set up). You pretty much just play Meren for the CA she provides, all else is just icing on the cake.

The rest of your changes are fine, they do help you with your Miracles MU. Just be careful of Gaddock Teeg though, he has a habit of messing with your own plans as soon as he hits the field.

Teeg does, especially with GSZ. That's an issue I ran across, from time to time, with him when playing Maverick.

I may, after this weekend, end up switching Meren and the 2nd Tower back into the deck. I know neither are really there for each other, but Tower and Veteran Explorer with a Meren on the field leads to some really stupid things happening extremely quick.

[Echelon]

This just popped in my head - another huge value creature for Eldritch Evolution - Woodland Bellower. Turn a random 4-drop into Bellower + Eternal Witness or Bellower + Fierce Empath, fetch Tasigur/Gurmag Angler/Karador.

Turns Eldritch Evolution from a 1-for-2 to a 2-for-2 or 3-for-2. Might be some more Danger Of Cool Stuff though, since other 6-drops either walk away with the game (Grave Titan, Dromoka) or place your opponent in a vicegrip (Sun Titan) with a lot less setup.

Just wanted to put it out there.

It sucks Evolution that exiles itself.

[Navsi]

If Evolution didn't exile itself it would be absurdly good. Goblin Dark Dwellers in particular would do stupid things. You could go from a 3-drop and 3 mana to a lethal combo directly.

Personally I'm looking at a slightly lower to the ground build, with EE as a tutor for a few silver bullets. In particular, turning Veteran Explorer or DRS into Magus of the Moon seems pretty good.

[Echelon]

or DRS

OMG, finally someone that gets it! EE + Vet Ex should generally be too slow. EE + DRS equals T2. Well, maybe with Thalia 2.0?

Is susceptible to Daze though...

[Jain_Mor]

DRS > EE is mana neutral tempo negative card disadvantage that's open to blow outs. That is not where you went to be :/

I like the Bellower idea though, or using it to make a Pod deck more consistent.

[Navsi]

Using EE on a Vet is exactly what we want to be doing to propel us into the midgame from the early game. However, it's not going to happen on turn two.

Using EE on a DRS is a way of playing more copies of miscellaneous 3-drops in the deck, at the expense of card disadvantage.

They're two very different lines that happen to both be made available by the same card.

I don't think Daze is much of a problem, the decks we want to wreck with Magus aren't the decks that play Daze.

[Echelon]

Using EE on a Vet is exactly what we want to be doing to propel us into the midgame from the early game. However, it's not going to happen on turn two.

We'd want to, but we probably can't. We want to hit the mid/lategame as quickly as possible since that's where we shine most, hence we'll feed our Vet to Phyrexian Tower/Cabal Therapy the first chance we get. Only after that we go for the fancy stuff.

[Navsi]

Sure we want to be feeding Vet to Tower or Therapy.

We play 8 copies of Vet (Zeniths + Explorers).
We play 5-6 sac outlets (4 Therapy + 1-2 Towers).

Adding 2-3 additional ways of killing our Veteran for value is something to consider when we can reasonably expect to have a Veteran without a sacrifice outlet in a reasonable percentage of games.

The nice thing about EE is that if we have already ditched a vet to get towards the midgame, it still works at upgrading our 2- and 3-drops like Witness, Strix, Stoneforge, Empath into serious threats.

[Echelon]

@Navsi: It seems we agree :wink:.

The bit about missing sac outlets for your Veteran Explorer - it's one of the reason why I run 2 Diabolic Intent. That, and it's just a sick card.

[Navsi]

With regards to using EE to get 3-drops off of DRS, Magus of the Moon + Sulfur Elemental + Scab-Clan Berserker pretty much cover most of our non-blue matchups (ie where we're actually willing to cast EE like that). Might be worth looking into? I could see 2 Magus maindeck with the other two in the sideboard for DnT and Storm.

Magus of the Moon seems like it might be a powerful choice in Jund just because it's great against two of the real bad matchups the R build have in Infect and Lands.

[cavalrywolfpack]

Thank you to everyone whom made suggestions and gave comments. Today I took the time to do a bit of researching and weighing considerations that were given here and did make some changes to the list. I feel they overall strengthen/solidify certain MU for me while freeing up clutter to add attention items to help against MU's where I may not have necessarily the best chance of winning.

the changes I made:

MB-

-1 Siege Rhino
-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
-1 Painful Truths
-1 Phyrexian Tower

+1 Tireless Tracker
+1 Gaddock Teeg (From SB to MB)
+1 Garruk Relentless (From SB to MB)
+1 Savannah

SB-

-1 Rest in Peace
-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Surgical Extraction
+1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
+1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion


Those are all changes I've thought about doing to my list for similar reasons. Tireless Tracker is the nuts in this deck. There's almost nothing more satisfying then saccing Explorer to Tower, then getting two basics and clues, then using that mana to crack them. SO. MUCH. VALUE!!!! There is also something to be said about having four Rhinos, which allows consistent threat redundancy, but I feel you can go down on a Rhino for Tireless Tracker himself.

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[Echelon]

I feel you can go down on a Rhino for Tireless Tracker himself.

Yes, show Tireless Tracker you care, go on.

I don't think you ment to say that... :laugh:

[cavalrywolfpack]

Yes, show Tireless Tracker you care, go on.

I don't think you ment to say that... [emoji23]
DAMMIT ECHELON

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[Echelon]

DAMMIT ECHELON

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You might just become my first signature!

Edit: You know, I just realized Eldritch Evolution curves Fierce Empath beautifully into Summoner's Egg. I'm going to have such a fucking field day when this card is released! I have a beautiful list ready, but you guys'll have to wait for it. Gonna do some testing tomorrow.

[Ganfar]

Creatures (15):

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk

Sorcery (10):

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Painful Truth's
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants (5):

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments (3):

3 Pernicious Deed

Artifacts (3):

3 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers (2):

Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Garruk Relentless

Lands (22):

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

- - - - -

Sideboard (15):

3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Choke
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

Oh, I really like the bas of this one.

I want to try out a similar build but -1 Vetrean Ex -1 ThargTsk for +1 Sylvian Safekeeper, Titania, protector of argoth

I have only play both of them in the Jund version a few games but it felt nice. I want to try it out on the Junk Version as well.

[Echelon]

Oh, I really like the bas of this one.

I want to try out a similar build but -1 Vetrean Ex -1 ThargTsk for +1 Sylvian Safekeeper, Titania, protector of argoth

I have only play both of them in the Jund version a few games but it felt nice. I want to try it out on the Junk Version as well.

Titania = Danger Of Cool Things. But feel free to find that out for yourself.

[Navsi]

I'm tempted to give Titania another shot, in a BUG build. The problem with her in Abzan is that she competes with Sigarda for the 'game ending threat' position. In BUG she's probably better than most of the alternatives for that title. Might be worth a look?

[Ganfar]

Titania = Danger Of Cool Things. But feel free to find that out for yourself.

She with Sylvian have make me a 5/3 army to win in one turn.

This is not recomanded against Miracels with a Top on the battlefield. I will report back when I have try it out. :)

[Echelon]

She with Sylvian have make me a 5/3 army to win in one turn.

This is not recomanded against Miracels with a Top on the battlefield. I will report back when I have try it out. :)

Now do me a favor and list what can go wrong when doing that.

See you on the other side!

[Brael]

So I liked SFM to an extent, but every time I played it, it just felt like the power wasn't there.

I think I'm going back to the SE build, but I do have a couple of flex slots. What do people think about a package of 1 SFM/2 equipment? It's effectively 2 of each card, which is actually pretty easy to find with the selection/draw of SE. I did really like the equipment, I've had better success just naturally drawing them than tutoring honestly.

[Echelon]

I did really like the equipment, I've had better success just naturally drawing them than tutoring honestly.

There's your answer.

[Naxochils]

Alrighty then. Let's try this. Never posted a deck list before sooooooo

Creatures
1x Deathrite Shaman
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2x Thragtusk

Spells
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Diabolic Intent
3x Punish Fire
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Xenagos, The Reveler
1x Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1x Chandra, Flamecaller

Lands
1x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Forest
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Mountain
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills


This is my current attempt at a Jund Walker Fit list. I have tried a bit of Arlinn Kord but she just doesn't seem like where i want to be with this list so she got out for Xenagos. Looking for thoughts/comments and the such.

[jbone2016]

Ended up 5-4. Beat miracles twice! Rug delver twice (including gfabs only loss) and mana less dredge. Lost to eldrazi, storm, burn and d+t (who had all 4 ports out the 2nd game.) Full report on Monday when I get home.

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[from Cairo]

1x Sensei's Divining Top

Only one SDT/Library copy main is almost certainly suboptimal. No offence intended, simply that this deck is designed to be the better/deeper "midrange" or "go over the top" of cmc 2-3 decks. Having ways to plan ahead draw steps, shuffle away poor future draws, draw extra cards in a given turn is something you want to see in every fair match up.

[sdematt]

Only one SDT/Library copy main is almost certainly suboptimal. No offence intended, simply that this deck is designed to be the better/deeper "midrange" or "go over the top" of cmc 2-3 decks. Having ways to plan ahead draw steps, shuffle away poor future draws, draw extra cards in a given turn is something you want to see in every fair match up.

You can't cut all the manipulation, shove in walkers, and call it a day. You have to cut back some of your stuff in the creature and removal department to fit in all those walkers.

-1 Meren
-1 Nissa

+2 Top
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Sylvan Library

Find two cuts and you should be fine. I might just actually say to cut Xenagos as well and run Vraska. Also, why are we playing Flamecaller? 6 mana walker that isn't fucking up life seems subpar. I'd say cut her, lower the curve. This way, you've got 2x 3-mana walkers, 1x 4-mana walker, and 3x 5-mana walkers. I think you're decently top heavy.

[Echelon]

I did a heap of testing yesterday with Eldritch Evolution. I'm still not sure whether I like it or not. Sometimes it's broken, sometimes it's so-so and sometimes it just sucks. I don't know if it has to do with my own build or with the fact that I was playtesting with the most oppressing Delver deck I've ever seen that ran lava-hot all friggin' day.

Turns out Eldritch Evolution/Summoner's Egg Fit still is the Danger Of Cool Things it already was. It's beyond epic, but durdles like it's noones business.

Abzan Rhino Fit w/ 4 Evolution (instead of my 2 Diabolic Intent & 2 Painful Truths) needs a third Forest but runs like a German train schedule. Evolving a 1 into a 3 is both awesome and somewhat underwhelming at the same time. Evolving a 3 or 4 into Sigarda or Sun Titan (or whatever 6, Dromoka should also be a fine candidate) is epic. The jump from 3 to 5 is probably what we're most interested in, as the 6 is just showboating. Casting multiple Evolutions in a row is a busted thing to do.

Evolution also allows for toolboxing like there's no tomorrow. During the day I've turned plenty of 1's into Scavenging Oozes and a Qasali Pridemage here or there. It's also pretty awesome to turn anything into an Eternal Witness - Witness can be so backbreaking.

I also got to see Bedlam Reveler and Homonculus Something at work. They're both pretty strong. Reveler is pretty much just Treasure Cruise attached to a 3/4 Prowess body for RR. Powercreep, anyone..? It's just a matter of time before we'll be seeing that as 4-off. My buddy started out on 2 yesterday in Grixis Delver, but I'm pretty sure he'll bump the count once he realizes he can.

So there's my random drivel about Eldritch Evolution. About 6 hours of testing and I'm still not clear on whether I like it or not. Yeah. I need more coffee.

[MysteryE]

Greetings everyone! I will post my deck list, then the records on who I vs'ed and a quick breakdown of the match as best as I can.

5-3-1 was my record

Jund Nic Fit

61 cards mainboard

1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer

Instant (6)
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Abrupt Decay

Planeswalkers (2)
1 Domri rade
1 Vraska the unseen

Sorcery (11)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dreadbore
1 Maelstrom pulse

Enchantment (2)
2 Pernicious Deed

Artifact (3)
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Land (22)
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard 15

3 Red elemental blast
2 Blood Moon
1 Boil
2 Surgical extraction
3 Slaughter Games
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Big game hunter
1 Garruk Relentless



Who I versed.
Past pairings for 2016-07-09
Tournament: Legacy Open
Round 1 WIN 2 - 0 - 0 VS Mark Drahushuk (6) at Table 194 Eldrazi
Round 2 WIN 2 - 0 - 0 VS Ralph Rickert (6) at Table 109 Blue Red Delver
Round 3 LOSS 1 - 2 - 0 VS Joe Lossett (24) at Table 72 Miracles
Round 4 WIN 2 - 0 - 0 VS Gregory Foti (6) at Table 91 Burn
Round 5 LOSS 1 - 2 - 0 VS Ian Morency (15) at Table 91 Bug Delver
Round 6 WIN 2 - 1 - 0 VS Alex Barker (12) at Table 147 Black Red Goblins
Round 7 LOSS 1 - 2 - 0 VS Eric Copenhaver (15) at Table 71 Dredge
Round 8 WIN 2 - 1 - 0 VS Gregory Lallman (12) at Table 121 Dredge
Round 9 1 - 0 - 1 VS Matt Pruner (15) at Table 83 Black Red Goblins


Round 1 Vs Eldrazi
I am new to playing Legacy so this is the 1st time I versed this deck I must say I am not impressed...Game 1 went t1 land Veteran, t2 another land with veteran, my opponent was able to get a turn 3 thought knot taking away my removal. He swung I blocked got 4 basics on my turn green sun for Titania getting a fetch land from graveyard, and playing 1 from my hand sacing and getting my 2nd 5/3 token he got a Reality smasher on board but after that It was already in my favor I then drew 2nd Green sun - I casted for thragtusk and started to just attack he scooped on to game 2.

+2 big game hunters, + 2 blood moon, -1 top, -1 kolaghan's command, - 1 painful truth, -1 reclamation sage.

He plays land go, I do land veteran again, he exiles him with the warping, he plays land go I get the veteran off a draw with cabal in hand so I get to go off pretty good he does beat me down for a bit to I think 8 I have it on my paper sorry its late. I finally draw green sun and was able to beat a reality smasher, thought knot, and that eldrazi that costs x where when cast = power and toughness he had a 6/6 I almost died to it but I drew abrupt decay with Titania again shes just that good to seal the deal.

Round 2 Blue Red Delver
I don't have much to report here after you land a thragtusk and he kills it with a burn spell but Volrath's on board both games my opponent game 1 was able to pay for force 3x in a row but as stated volraths just ends games that need burn, so I got out of range I also was able to finish game 2 using Titania and getting the tokens winning. We spoke after he could have played grixis delver or esper stone blade which I think both are better than what he was playing just saying IMO.

Round 3 Miracles
So FYI Joe Lossett is the best miracles player in magic... I found this after I lost game 3. Game 1 land deathrite, my opponent plays a land and fetches.. I play land exile card and play Domri on turn 2. moving ahead I was able to get top down the following turn he gets entreat for 4 angels domri was so close to ulting to close the game out I was able to play a fetch and play titania getting triggers to stack I sacked got a 5/3 returned and saced again for another token. Joe rushed his angels on my domri killing him I was able to get Kessig and win he had 2 angels in the back for blocking. Game 2 and 3 ended the same way I was unable to believe that game 2 I drew a ton of lands no removal and I ended up dieing to angel tokens -_-. On game 3 I just couldn't get there I slaughter games naming terminus so he cant down side my thrun, I see in his hand Moat, entreat, brainstorm and after that we were bent for time. He ended up winning with entreat I don't know if I could have done any better I did not get my sideboard cards other than red elemental blast. In game 3 I did not draw anything during late game like surgical, green sun so it happens.

Round 4 Burn
Thragtusk, and Hunt master that's all I can say

Round 5 Bug Delver
I won game 1 same way as most just getting big threats Titania with a few tokens closed game 1 pretty fast, games 2 and 3 I drew a lot of lands and no threats against a person who just got the best removal draw for days. I think I could have done better because this is a favorable match up. I lost game 3 without seeing any removal for the goyf.

Round 6 Black Red Goblins
Game 1 went like land veteran vs a land aethervile I thought he was death and taxes, but when I played my cabal therapy naming thalia he showed me a hand of goblins. I didn't knowing what goblin to take I just took his tutoring one it was a 1/1 that can get a goblin card and put it to his hand. I got forest swamp and abrupt decayed his aethervile pass, he plays land goblin ringleader which is now my target for the rest of the match because he can just refill the hand by looking at top 4 and placing all goblins into his hand. I play land and drop down my ooze and eat the 1st goblin in the grave he shoots it dealing 3 damage. I pass he plays another goblin lackey and pile driver. I play huntmaster of the fells with a veteran explorer, I pass he plays land and shoots my huntmaster with a goblin tribal spells that has cycling. he swings I block the lacky and the pile driver taking 2 from the ring leader. At this time my life goes down a bit more to 13/14 somewhere around there I draw Prime time play him get volraths, and a land. I pass he plays land pass, I then untap and swing he takes the 1st hit going down to 13. He draws a goblin ring leader plays him hits 3 goblins and pretty much dumps his hand. and passes. I draw green sun so I swing he blocks with all I killed his table and green sun for titania and return a fetch and double fetch getting 2x 5/3 tokens. he scoops we go to game 2.

no idea what to side vs him so I put +2 surgical, - 1 top, - 1 deathrite.

game 2 was a bit more rough he plays land lacky, I play land veteran. He untaps plays a waste and exiles my vet using warping wail. he swings but doesnt trigger lacky. he passes I play land go. he swings and triggers him this time dropping a 5/3 goblin on turn 3. I had no answers he closes the game fast by dropping free goblins on the board.

Game 3 was long I gained a ton of life he had quite a few goblins but I surgically extracted all his ringleaders. I was at 26 life it almost went to turns. I was able to get titan and draw all my lands with huntmaster flipped and titania on board with 4 tokens. He had a lot of goblins and tokens at this point, I drew my toxic deluge deluge for 2 clearing his side swing with everything, he blocked with grenzo. I didn't know his cmc is Red/Black/X with abrupt in my hand I could have won that swing. I pass he just looks and says yeah you got it I'm not sure what he could have done at 1 life he conceded after his draw...I am not sure what goblins can do after.

Round 7 Dredge
I have never vsed a dredge deck so it was interesting. Game 1 I lost to the ichors, and the sacking not being able to interact with him because he was able to sac and empt my entire hand and leaves me with 2 lands from the 4 cabals that hit his grave. This was on turn 3 from all of his dredging. Bridge from below I relized is a problem so I note that and the green creature that dredges 6. Game 2 I land deathrite pass I was able to keep him from evening going anywhere I ended up winning with him not being able to get his ichors out because i landed a Ooze that got to 8/8 he was able to get an 10/10 but he conceded for the sake of time. He knew that the ooze would grow bigger than his 10/10 and that I was eating the things he needed. Game 3 I was able to early game surgical his green dredging creature on his turn untap play land, and a deathrite. He kills the deathrite with firestorm dealing 2 to him and me. the game goes back and forth I pretty much drew nothing to stop him at the end he had the 3 ichors hit me while I had a 4/4 thrun, he has 3 cards left in his deck, 3 ichors and he made 5 zombies from the blue creature sac, and 3 ichors he was at 8 I was at 9. I could have volrath the deathrite to the top of my deck but I needed a green sun to get witness to return 1 of my deeds. I made a serious mistake of not playing 1 to the table and it cost me because he was able to cabal me and remove it from my hand knowing I had 1, but I drew 2 earlier in the game...serious mistake on my part. I lost it in 3. he even said he was shocked we both mulled to 4 that game This was the 1st serious mull that I had to do to get surgical and lands.

Round 8 Dredge again...
Game 1 I won it pretty fast with a ooze, and a deathrite he just looked and said yep you win can't stop an ooze and a deathrite on turn 1 and 2 respectively. Game 2 was something from a fairy tale I had ways to handle his zombies his deck used that flayer creature the 4/3 that undying when a creature enters from grave deal damage = to power of that creature. well I had things in my hand but he "comboed" off and claims that the flayer + zombies from sacking creatures to deal 16 damage...I was at 18 I asked how is that a thing. I asked that because it entered but not from the "grave" they are zombie tokens from the bridge from below... I am new to most of these decks because well I'm new to legacy in general. I was already out of day 2 so I asked if he used this against others to kill them he said yes...but it did not make any sense I should have called a judge but just took his word for it on to game 3. I am on the play turn 1 deathrite pass he goes land draw a card for 2 life, draw another card for 2 life... pass I play land fetch, using deathrite I eat the land play deed and tormod's crypt and pass. He just goes yep what the heck do I do now.. he played a land and pass. I followed with land eat play Huntmaster and the rest is history he stalls for a few turns but eventually he just concedes the game from a flip huntmaster.

Note : always call a judge I was so shocked I asked friends about what he did, and all of them said he did a BS move. They pretty much told me he cheated.. the thing he did was flayer of the hatebound with zombie tokens dealing 16 damage to me.

Game 9 Black Red Goblins
At this point its all in fun I will not say much here but he crushes me game 1 with 7 goblins all having haste and the pile driver does a lot. Game 2 I just beat him with thragtusk and a volraths on board he didn't wasteland it, but he got my kessig. Game 3 I promise you if he did not stall or if we had more time I would have won -_- I had the game in my favor with Thragtusk on board with abrupt in my hand I needed kessig so bad! we tie sorry I didn't explain much but it played like the other goblin deck..we go back and forth but I will say I had this 1 if not for timing us and going to turns.

I had a lot of fun sorry if my grammar is not the best I realize a lot of you would like to read something that doesn't burn the eyes or your soul. I am not 100% sure how a report should go I hope this is OK if anyone wants to give me a hand with this id gladly accept. I always seek out tutors to help me with grammar because mine is terrible. Even at college level

I loved huntmaster 1 of my all stars in most games with Titania closed game right out. Domri is staying with top setting up great draws is nice. Some of my losses were just play mistakes, and bad choices on what the play is. The deck ran in my eyes good. I heard quite a few people during some of my matches saying how much they enjoy seeing my deck and that it looks amazing ^_^ always a relief to hear.

I would like to talk to Ulysse95 about the enchantment nic fit I have a few questions that I would like to know more about the deck.

Another gentleman came to me and explained to me that he was running abzan nic fit. He enjoyed seeing my deck, he asked me if it was scape-wish or punishing fire I told him its just Jund nic fit he took a gander at the deck and asked a few questions about card choice like Vraska who is a silver bullet for most things JTMS, Moat, and other permanents that need to be dealt with. I don't know to be honest I think abzan is stronger getting locked by a moat is painful, not drawing a green sun for rec sage, and or draw maelstrom to shut it off. I hear Sigarda is too strong.. in my case though I can fight lands with Blood moons and anyone not using basics.

If anyone has any questions please ask!

one last thing my friends were laughing at me for playing Nic Fit after round 4 which I was 3-1 a lot of them were already gone or x-2. I guess I don't get the last laugh but I lasted all the way to round 7 and got knocked out of day 2.

[Brael]

There's your answer.

Probably, but it seems like such a bad answer. I'm cool with counting Fire and Ice as a removal spell, as well as Jitte, and a single SFM since it can presumably find one of the two. And a Batterskull is still a threat.

I think that what I'm really looking for here is a minimal SFM package rather than the full thing. 2 SFM 3 targets to keep the threat/interaction count up.

I regret not making a list yet but I've been busy doing a mad scientist impersonation (as can be read in the Burn thread) and uncovering the secrets of Magic. Perhaps tomorrow if I find some time I'll try to create a list. I'm going to be out of town for a bit again, so who knows if I'll be able to play, but I bet I can get some test games in somewhere.

[Brael]

I also got to see Bedlam Reveler and Homonculus Something at work. They're both pretty strong. Reveler is pretty much just Treasure Cruise attached to a 3/4 Prowess body for RR. Powercreep, anyone..? It's just a matter of time before we'll be seeing that as 4-off. My buddy started out on 2 yesterday in Grixis Delver, but I'm pretty sure he'll bump the count once he realizes he can.

So there's my random drivel about Eldritch Evolution. About 6 hours of testing and I'm still not clear on whether I like it or not. Yeah. I need more coffee.

Which deck do you think had a home for Reveler? It basically has to be a red heavy deck with lots of cantrips. UR Delver maybe?

I discussed it in some other threads and it didn't seem good there. Fueled by cantrips though I can see it.

[cherson]

Probably, but it seems like such a bad answer. I'm cool with counting Fire and Ice as a removal spell, as well as Jitte, and a single SFM since it can presumably find one of the two. And a Batterskull is still a threat.

I think that what I'm really looking for here is a minimal SFM package rather than the full thing. 2 SFM 3 targets to keep the threat/interaction count up.

I regret not making a list yet but I've been busy doing a mad scientist impersonation (as can be read in the Burn thread) and uncovering the secrets of Magic. Perhaps tomorrow if I find some time I'll try to create a list. I'm going to be out of town for a bit again, so who knows if I'll be able to play, but I bet I can get some test games in somewhere.
I'm totally with you. I play jitte and batterskull as equipments and 3x sfm. If u draw one of your equipments early, sfm is nearly useless. Most of the time it dies before u can even use the ability. As u said, equipments are somehow great but sfm has no gas. These 5 slots can be used better even though I like the idea of sfm. Not quite how to fix it.

[Ulysse95]

First, a thought to SF/EW fit players.
I've been playing parallaxe wave in my enchant fit list lately. It really impressed me while running it and tricks appears to me one after the other. A really good one is specifically benefic to you:
You use your wave and use one of the last counters on Eternal Witness (best if after blocks), then use the remaing ones on one of your creatures with etb abilities or other opponent attacking creatures. Then on your upkeep, parallaxe wave is sacrified and creatures are coming back. As E W whom can return parallaxe wave so you can cast a fresh one again. At least, you can immediately use it again to suppress blockers and free the way to your beaters.

An other classic trick is to use the ability on some of your creatures you want to save/trigger leave or enter the field abilities, then stack all the remaining ones on opponent creatures before cracking a big deed (>4). Deed is resolved, so parallaxe wave is destroyed; our creatures come back, then big monsters are definitely exiled. It a useful trick to manage drazi daddies, Griselbrand and other big shots.

Then, the last and better one, that I just found out while answering in PM to MysteryE:
In my list, if you have parallaxe wave, starfield and at least 3 others enchant, you can do indefinitely both:
-remove a wave counter to remove one of your creature. Resolve. Then remove a counter to exile wave itself. Resolve: wave leave the battlefield and triggers, bringing back your creature and wave itself (with 5 new fresh counters).
-remove a counter to target an opponent creature. While keeping the priority, you remove another counter to target parallaxe wave itself. Resolve: wave leave the battlefield and triggers, so it bring itself back with 5 fresh new counters. Then the first activation resolves, exiling definitely the opponent creature.

Each card is powerfull by itself. The combination is game breaking.

[Echelon]

Round 8 Dredge again...
Game 1 I won it pretty fast with a ooze, and a deathrite he just looked and said yep you win can't stop an ooze and a deathrite on turn 1 and 2 respectively. Game 2 was something from a fairy tale I had ways to handle his zombies his deck used that flayer creature the 4/3 that undying when a creature enters from grave deal damage = to power of that creature. well I had things in my hand but he "comboed" off and claims that the flayer + zombies from sacking creatures to deal 16 damage...I was at 18 I asked how is that a thing. I asked that because it entered but not from the "grave" they are zombie tokens from the bridge from below... I am new to most of these decks because well I'm new to legacy in general. I was already out of day 2 so I asked if he used this against others to kill them he said yes...but it did not make any sense I should have called a judge but just took his word for it on to game 3. I am on the play turn 1 deathrite pass he goes land draw a card for 2 life, draw another card for 2 life... pass I play land fetch, using deathrite I eat the land play deed and tormod's crypt and pass. He just goes yep what the heck do I do now.. he played a land and pass. I followed with land eat play Huntmaster and the rest is history he stalls for a few turns but eventually he just concedes the game from a flip huntmaster.

Note : always call a judge I was so shocked I asked friends about what he did, and all of them said he did a BS move. They pretty much told me he cheated.. the thing he did was flayer of the hatebound with zombie tokens dealing 16 damage to me.

...

I had a lot of fun sorry if my grammar is not the best I realize a lot of you would like to read something that doesn't burn the eyes or your soul. I am not 100% sure how a report should go I hope this is OK if anyone wants to give me a hand with this id gladly accept.

You were playing vs. Manaless Dredge there (one of my own pet decks). When in even the slightest doubt, call a judge. They're there to help you. The worst thing that can happen is that they say "Yeah, he's right" and the game continues. In this case he either didn't know how his deck worked himself or he was trying to cheat a win out of you.

When you face regular LED Dredge, try to save your Surgicals for Ichorid. Without it they hardly have a clock. Manaless is a bit harder to stop since it runs a lot more creatures that ETB. Vs. Manaless you should try to keep your opponent from getting 3+ creatures as long as you can - 3 creatures + Dread Return + Balustrade Spy = kill.

As far as reports go, yours is a fine report.


Which deck do you think had a home for Reveler? It basically has to be a red heavy deck with lots of cantrips. UR Delver maybe?

I discussed it in some other threads and it didn't seem good there. Fueled by cantrips though I can see it.

UR Delver to start with, yeah. My buddy got it to work in Grixis Delver. Perhaps in Burn, so you can recuperate after having some burn spells countered. I can see this card getting pretty big. It's Treasure Cruise on a 3/4 Prowess stick for RR that can chained one after another, come on. It's even Lightning Bolt-proof and Abrupt Decay-proof. You could even try some RW deck w/ Eldrazi Displacer/Flickerwisps etc. Blink that bastard. Flickerform, anyone? Or some combo deck with shitloads of red mana rituals, Faithless Lootings, Burning Wishes etc.

It'll take some time, but the community'll break it.

[benoasan]

Small tournament this week-end, 9 players, 5 rounds.

Finished first with this list:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Forest
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Reality Smasher
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

Win 2-1 versus Enchanteress (thanks pernicious & krosan grip & Ulamog)
Win 2-0 versus Death and Taxes (thanks pernicious & eldrazi versus mother)
Win 2-0 versus Zoo (thanks thragcorne & baloth)
Win 2-1 versus Tezzeret control (thanks pernicious and TKS)
Loss 0-2 versus storm (despite I had very good hand at G2 but he killed T2)

[Brael]

Playing this, this weekend assuming my schedule works out. Sadly, I misplaced one of my GSZ from the experiment with SFM so I'm going to have to run on one less, and I misplaced 2 DRS so even though I wanted them in my SB I'll have to make a substitution.

Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifact 7
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Spells 13
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

I feel like this is a little light on removal but I think I'm going to go with it for now.


UR Delver to start with, yeah. My buddy got it to work in Grixis Delver. Perhaps in Burn, so you can recuperate after having some burn spells countered. I can see this card getting pretty big. It's Treasure Cruise on a 3/4 Prowess stick for RR that can chained one after another, come on. It's even Lightning Bolt-proof and Abrupt Decay-proof. You could even try some RW deck w/ Eldrazi Displacer/Flickerwisps etc. Blink that bastard. Flickerform, anyone? Or some combo deck with shitloads of red mana rituals, Faithless Lootings, Burning Wishes etc.

It'll take some time, but the community'll break it.

It's definitely not a burn card. It doesn't really work without the blue cantrips and the blue cantrips slow Burn down, even Gitaxian Probe slows the deck as odd as that probably sounds.

[Bobmans]

Sadly, I misplaced one of my GSZ from the experiment with SFM so I'm going to have to run on one less, and I misplaced 2 DRS so even though I wanted them in my SB I'll have to make a substitution.

Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
1 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifact 7
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Spells 13
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

I feel like this is a little light on removal but I think I'm going to go with it for now.


Just my two cents on some numbers:
4th GSZ can replace the 4th SDT. Flooding into SDT is a thing, with 4 that happens so much it is just gets annoying. 3 is really enough. On the other hand, GSZ is always, always a solid draw.
While you seem light on removal i wouldn't worry too much about that. Jitte and SoFaI are also removal and you run MD QPM. Although i'd personally feel more comfortable running 4 Plow (reach) and 3 Deed's (sweep).
Dark Confidant, i am very interested how good the card actually is in this deck, as opposed to say Sylvan Library or Painful Truths. However, Bob does give another creature to carry a sword.
1 SFM is also interesting. Have missed some content on this thread lately, anyone have some playtime with a 1/2 or 1/3 split? Maybe even 0 SFM?
Last, i would really prefer to see a Thragtusk in here. Siege Rhino is also fine, it carry swords to a champ and turning GSZ into Lava Spike is very useful at times. Thragtusk often has more impact to the board and can even stretch a game against storm combo or burn enough to win. Plus it helps vs Miracles.

[Brael]

Just my two cents on some numbers:
4th GSZ can replace the 4th SDT. Flooding into SDT is a thing, with 4 that happens so much it is just gets annoying. 3 is really enough. On the other hand, GSZ is always, always a solid draw.

The 4th GSZ will go in over something (not entirely sure what yet), there's no if's about that. I just need to be home and not traveling so I can search my apartment for it. It couldn't have gone far. SDT is the real engine of my deck though, I don't think I can convince myself to run less than 4, I'll cut a Vet before a Top because it powers up so many other cards in the deck and is so hard to get rid of.


While you seem light on removal i wouldn't worry too much about that. Jitte and SoFaI are also removal and you run MD QPM. Although i'd personally feel more comfortable running 4 Plow (reach) and 3 Deed's (sweep).

That's what I'm going for, I'm hoping the equipment can supplement my removal numbers because that's what ate some cuts in order to bring them in. In general I like creatures in Nic Fit because I put a huge premium on just smacking the opponent in the face. My thoughts here though are that I can use some equipment in the same way, filling the face smacking role while also being removal. I'm going to try it atleast. I really didn't like the 3-4 SFM builds.

I've never felt right with 3 Deed, I play too aggressive for it. Deed here is mainly as a catch all, I would play 0 if I felt my other removal were up to the job.


Dark Confidant, i am very interested how good the card actually is in this deck, as opposed to say Sylvan Library or Painful Truths. However, Bob does give another creature to carry a sword.

He's a staple of my CA suite. I'm the only one on the forums who seems to run him but I can't complain. He works great with Courser, great with Top, great with equipment, great with Tracker. My CA suite is pretty locked in at 2 Dark Confidant, 2 Tireless Tracker, 1 Courser, 1 Witness, 4 Top. I used to run 2 Courser but I'm letting the Sword of FaI fill in a bit because I had to make some cuts. What I like about Bob is that I get the same value as those other cards but I can also hit my opponents face.

There's a whole philosophy on deck building based around cards that generate value by being on the battlefield. Each one of these you add to a deck amplifies the other cards of that style in your deck, and those are the cards I try to stick to with Nic Fit. The idea being that I can overload my opponents removal. If they kill my Bob it just means they can't kill my Rhino, and if they save removal for my Rhino it means the Bob goes uncontested.



1 SFM is also interesting. Have missed some content on this thread lately, anyone have some playtime with a 1/2 or 1/3 split? Maybe even 0 SFM?

Complete experiment on my part. I don't know if I'll like it or not. Batterskull is next on the chopping block if I need to cut something but I like SFM being able to turn into a real threat.


Last, i would really prefer to see a Thragtusk in here. Siege Rhino is also fine, it carry swords to a champ and turning GSZ into Lava Spike is very useful at times. Thragtusk often has more impact to the board and can even stretch a game against storm combo or burn enough to win. Plus it helps vs Miracles.

I like keeping my curve low, 2 5 drops is already too much for me, but I'm allowing it because I cut down on 4's. Part of my Miracles SB involves bringing in Sorin LoI. I have so much CA that it's often times better to run a lower curve and try to play multiple cards every turn than one higher impact one. Also remember that I'm playing the deck with Bob so I have to pay even more attention to my curve. While Thragtusk is eventually life neutral it's pretty bad to flip him before I'm ready to cast him.

[Echelon]

It's definitely not a burn card. It doesn't really work without the blue cantrips and the blue cantrips slow Burn down, even Gitaxian Probe slows the deck as odd as that probably sounds.

I thought so too, at first. I mean, having that many instants/sorceries in your GY should mean game's over, right? But then I figured it should help vs. counters (and lots of those). It also seems pretty need vs. Miracles. They don't have an 8 to CB it and you gaining 3 life (StP) for drawing 3 cards seems like a pretty sweet deal. It also helps you deal with Jace. I mean, what're they going to do? Send it back to your hand so you can draw 3 more cards? Lol.

So... Has anyone else been testing Eldritch Evolution?

[4554551//]

Hi all,

Jumping in on the "have been frequenting here for weeks, only just decided to post" bandwagon. I've been playing the deck a regularly for a little over a month, and have been averaging a bit over 75% win rate. Making changes as I go along.
Most recent is the addition of trackers and jitte (I have not yet tested jitte, but seems like a nice fit). I've also just taken out the deathrite, as I've found I never green suns for him. If I get him he's great, if I actively need grave hate I get scooze, and with 3 rhinos and a tusk life isn't an issue.
My main question here is actually regarding him. I've noticed he's in almost every list, but I'm not sure specifically as to why. He seems amazing on paper, and I've played extensively with him in multiples before and loved it, but in this deck, I've just never found myself zenithing for him (except that one time I didn't have a third land drop, or therapy). For reference, below is my list. It appears I've got some unusual card choices compared to what I've read about on here, and if anything would welcome a discussion on them.

Creatures:20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

Spells:17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Grave Titan
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed

[Echelon]

First a couple of questions:
- Why Primeval Titan as your 6-drop? Magical Christmasland value when you have a Titania on the board (a 5-drop that can be answered by a single Lightning Bolt, by the way)?
- What's that lone Wasteland doing in your manabase? You plan to Waste your opponent after Primeval Titan comes down, or even more cute value w/ Titania..?
- Horizon Canopy - to what end?
- Just 1 Abrupt Decay as spot removal suite w/ just 2 Pernicious Deed to back it up?
- Your manabase is very low on initial black sources. This can seriously hinder your ability to cast Cabal Therapy reliably on turn 1, where T1 Cabal Therapy into T2 Veteran Explorer is one of the strongest openings you can have
- Your manabase is also very low on white sources. Sure, you omit the best card Abzan gives you (Path to Exile), but 12 white sources is very light for a deck that does mean to cast white cards.
- Your SB - to what purpose would you bring in Grave Titan? What problem should it fix that your MB has?
- Your SB - Melira. Is Infect a significant player in your meta?

To answer your question - a single DRS can severely fuck w/ Delver & graveyard strategies. So can Scavenging Ooze, but it comes down 1/2 turns later. DRS coming down on T1 can be the difference between life and death. The lower CMC means you might also get it through a Daze where Scavenging Ooze would get countered by it. It also functions as a lightning rod to draw away removal before we cast what we do care about and it can speed up your gameplan by a full turn (which also can be rather crucial).

[4554551//]

I'm sorry I'm unsure how to quote parts of a message, so I'll try split it up:

Titan is a big tramply dude. The main use is getting tower+stronghold then spending the rest of the game casting the same rhino over and over. Or just returning stuff for value.

The wasteland is a remnant from when I ran knight of reliquary. Still good with tatan/titania. But if I know I need it, 1 ofs aren't hard to find with the amount of tops and shuffle effects.

Horizon canopy is a land that turns into something else once in the late game. Also a draw when you want two things of top, while keeping your top. Just a little versatility, but becomes painful if there is more than 1.

Yea. Again, things like that aren't hard to come by through topping and shuffling. You only need to see one per game game 1. You answer the problem things then keep pushing and they're the ones who need answers.

There are 12 black sources. I've never had explorer+therapy and NOT had the land. Normally it's one of the other 2 I'm missing.

I usually get a plains off the explorer. Otherwise 10 sources. Plus since I rarely need it turn 1, tops help.

Grave titan is a win more against fair decks, or decks that can go wide. I've considered replacing it with Dromoka, but 10 power on 3 bodies is too good. It's also a game closer. Happy to bring it in against miracles for example because they have to terminus for the 1 card.

Melira-there's 2 or 3 infect. But at the cost of one slot, I'm happy to put it in just to not get blown out, cos game 1 is usually a loss

Yea, drs turn 1 is amazing in certain matchups. Just the chances of seeing it turn 1, against those specific matchups is boardering christmas land. I absolutely see it's value. I guess it more comes down to is is better than a second tracker, or jit.

[Echelon]

Tower + Stronghold aren't great in the face of Wasteland. You're better off with going for Dromoka or Sorin, Grim Nemesis. Both can pull you right back into the game. Dromoka stops aerial assaults and gains you massive amounts of life, Sorin draws you cards whilst killing your opponent and kills off creatures whilst gaining you life. Titan is mostly win-more.

I'd switch Wasteland for a regular card and Canopy for an extra fetch. It both ups your black count and plays wonderfully w/ Top, especially in the lategame.

You know how you normally deal w/ decks that go wide..? Pernicious Deed, and plenty of them. And some more spotremoval to prevent them from going wide. There's no need to run a card in your SB that helps you shit on already good MUs. That's just a waste of SB space.

DRS should be played as a 2/3 off.

Edit: And run a Sigarda, dammit! She's too good to skip :laugh:.

[4554551//]

Yea, those are both fantastic and worth consideration. The thing with titan is he himself needs to be answered, as well as the lands he brings. With my own wasteland I can bring in first with horizon or something if I see they have one out, or 2 witness+titania getting the land back isn't an issue. And even if I can't, they've still had to answer titan plus a land. Go me. Alternatively, if it looks like he can be easily dealt with, plus they have wastelands, I just GSZ for something more relevant, it's the wonderful thing about toolbox. Worst case scenario I get him and get a canopy and a wasteland. Draw 2 cards next turn. And that's not a bad worst case. Actually the worst case is him getting countered and I get nothing, but that's the same as anything except Drokoma, who I've been heasetant on because like the knight of reliquery I cut, she's no immediate value. You're getting out a 6 drop and they path the thing. Advantage is the counter resistance and that would be a sideboard card. That's why I'm focussing on the two titans in that slot. Immediate value, plus a question to be answered. Sorin, yes. Sorin is awesome.

I feel like you need the wasteland. You have to be able to answer the lands deck, enemy inkmoths etc. I honestly haven't had any problem getting the colours. it's typically turn 1 fetch/play bayu and live happily ever after.

What would you recommend over titan? It sures up good matchups which could be redundant but is also great v miracles. I feel like with 9 hand disruption and 3 surgicals+scooze I've got combo covered, a lot of the elves and low cost dude decks you load up the extra deeds/paths/plague.. Maybe something for grixis delver. That decks a pain, but the problem is it's 1 slot, and the problem I have with them isn't that I don't have things that are good against them, it's that they counter all my stuff, including stifling the fetches. Thoughts? Maybe dromoka, who again, is only good vs counters because everything else paths or terminates her. Even miracles, being the main counter deck just swords it.

I agree on drs. One seems bad, running 3-4 is a consistent DRS strategy, and they aren't exactly bad in multiples. I don't know if that's what this deck wants though, especially considering the opportunity cost.

[Echelon]

I feel like you need the wasteland. You have to be able to answer the lands deck, enemy inkmoths etc. I honestly haven't had any problem getting the colours. it's typically turn 1 fetch/play bayu and live happily ever after.

What would you recommend over titan? It sures up good matchups which could be redundant but is also great v miracles. I feel like with 9 hand disruption and 3 surgicals+scooze I've got combo covered, a lot of the elves and low cost dude decks you load up the extra deeds/paths/plague.. Maybe something for grixis delver. That decks a pain, but the problem is it's 1 slot, and the problem I have with them isn't that I don't have things that are good against them, it's that they counter all my stuff, including stifling the fetches. Thoughts? Maybe dromoka, who again, is only good vs counters because everything else paths or terminates her. Even miracles, being the main counter deck just swords it.

I agree on drs. One seems bad, running 3-4 is a consistent DRS strategy, and they aren't exactly bad in multiples. I don't know if that's what this deck wants though, especially considering the opportunity cost.

Wasteland/Stifle don't see play on your meta? That's unlikely. I hardly ever fetch a dual as first land. You just can't risk the blowout.

Not to be a dick, but Titan folds to everything troubling Miracles does. @6 mana you have to worry about CB w/ Terminus on top and it's answered by the same Terminus/StP that answer every other card we throw at Miracles. It does nothing to help vs. that particular MU. Miracles is dealth with via combat walkers. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and Garruk Relentless. Those are cards they can hardly deal with, so that'd be my first suggestion.

TES/ANT is hardly bothered by 9 discard & Surgical/Ooze. They just bide their time and combo out while you durdle. You'll need stuff like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. With a combination of discard, hatebears and a clock you might get there, but it's still very unlikely. Know that and accept it.

[Jain_Mor]

Kinda missed a key question for that discussion there... (Unless I missed it in the text walls?)
With a 75% win rate, (over I assume more than 2-3 tournaments), what is your meta?

And J-bone, where's that tournament report dude? Senpai still needs to teach me how to best miracles.

[4554551//]

If there's a possibility of stifle I obviously play around it. Wasteland doesn't bother me if I'm landing an explorer, otherwise you play around that too-depending on opening hand of course. If I've got 4-5 land opening, I'm happy for them to waste me.

I mean they can't deal with grave titan with a swords to plowshares (zombies are still a real threat), and they can't ignore it for more than a turn, and even that's risky. Sorin I'm seriously considering in that slot now that we've had this conversation.

Tes and ANT I need more experience with, reserving comment for now, though advise welcome.

Key question really is about DRS. Why do people use him, when, is he zenithed for and is he a big deal to not have?

4 events so far, all around 32 players, all 3/1 and better (4 round events). Meta is quite diverse, I've not played the same (opposing) deck twice in a night, or more than a couple times total. Though grixis delver and shardless are popular. Still can't really compete with grixis delver when they go crazy with the stifles/counters/wastelands in the first 2-3 turns then beat me to death with a pyromancer army or a couple delvers.

The heavy losses were tendrills storm (before I added 3 surgicals), and grixis delver, which I feel I'd still lose to. Miracles give me grief, but I think I'm making headway in that matchup.

[Echelon]

I mean they can't deal with grave titan with a swords to plowshares (zombies are still a real threat), and they can't ignore it for more than a turn, and even that's risky. Sorin I'm seriously considering in that slot now that we've had this conversation.

Tes and ANT I need more experience with, reserving comment for now, though advise welcome.

Key question really is about DRS. Why do people use him, when, is he zenithed for and is he a big deal to not have?

4 events so far, all around 32 players, all 3/1 and better (4 round events). Meta is quite diverse, I've not played the same (opposing) deck twice in a night, or more than a couple times total. Though grixis delver and shardless are popular. Still can't really compete with grixis delver when they go crazy with the stifles/counters/wastelands in the first 2-3 turns then beat me to death with a pyromancer army or a couple delvers.

The heavy losses were tendrills storm (before I added 3 surgicals), and grixis delver, which I feel I'd still lose to. Miracles give me grief, but I think I'm making headway in that matchup.

Stp on Titan, Snapcaster -> flashback StP on token 1, block token 2 to death/bounce token 2 with Jace? Yes, huge threat indeed.

I can see you having trouble w/ Grixis, especially if you have the habit of opening with fetch into Bayou. Having more spotremoval and Deeds helps. A lot. Same goes for Deathrite Shaman, by the way. It's also something you need to learn how to play against.

[Luthiereisfun]

Stp on Titan, Snapcaster -> flashback StP on token 1, block token 2 to death/bounce token 2 with Jace? Yes, huge threat indeed.

I think pointing out a scenario where miracles has an answer to your creature is kind of silly. They can literally answer anything. That said yes some creatures like Sigarda will be more resilient in that MU but still something miracles can deal with.

I think the real key is to try and best manage resources, overload they're removal/terminus while not getting blown out by them and as you said using planeswalkers.

[Echelon]

I think pointing out a scenario where miracles has an answer to your creature is kind of silly. They can literally answer anything.

That's the entire point. 45-something was under the impression Grave Titan wasn't answered easily, where it seriously doesn't pose much of a problem at all. That's a pretty big oversight if you mean to use it as an answer vs. a certain deck. If we can come up with the line I described, you bet your sweet ass a half-decent Miracles pilot'll come up with something even better. You have to think this through, not just think "Meh, this creature'll solve my problems" and have that be it. That's setting yourself up for failure. Think about what your opponent can do to you before running into it face first.

[Tom4ik]

Why did the miracles player have a snapcaster and stp in hand still by the time you are playing titan? That card is the top of his curve so I would guess that other cards were played first and that the Titan is played after the hands are played out. In that case he is right, Stp does not help them because he still has 4 power. Even if he plays titan and miracles player uses 2 cards to deal with one how is that not worth it? Mana usage is irrelevant in that match up so paying 6 vs 4 isnt a big deal because you get the extra card out of the deal.

I would say that a bigger issue than Stp is that terminus cleans it all up in the attack step. Prime time is still the most busted 6 drop if you are going to play one imo.

[Navsi]

Personally I don't think Grave Titan or 6-drop creatures are what we want at all in BUG. I have been doing some working on this (finishers for Sultai) and it's a bit of a pain, really. Our basic options are:

- Nongreen 6-drops that are scary, but removable and can't be Zenithed (Deadeye, CSphinx, Grave Titan)

- Green big guys that are resilient, but still fold to Terminus and are awful elsewhere (Sagu Mauler, Primeval Titan into Towers, Simic Sky Swallower, Thrun)

- Slightly smaller green guys that are faster, relevant in other matchups, but easy to get rid of in comparison (Titania, Chameleon Colossus)

- Planeswalkers that still aren't as good as Abzan's (Garruk, Ob Nix - I'm assuming you already have a couple JTMSs)

- Some other clunky wincon like Cunning Wish for Empty the Pits or some kind of Recurring Nightmare Combo

- Splash W for a solid finisher like Sorin

- Splash C for 2-3 Thought-Knot and 1 Reality Smasher


The solution I'm leaning towards is to forget about running dedicated finishers and just play a few ways of turning our dorky value guys like Witness and Strix into threats, like 1x SoFaI and 1x SoLaS/SoFaF. Baleful Strix with a Sword is suddenly a real problem and ends the game just fine by itself.

[Tom4ik]

When I played bug I played strix/Snap (blue for md force which is why over witness) and no dedicated win con. Jace or the idiot brigade with a couple of Thragtusks and tar pits as well. Its usually enough. Bug nic fit plays so much different than junk colored versions. It doesnt use gsz and its basically just a control deck that uses therapy and veteran explorer as a mana fixer. In fact I cut some lands when I played it and added ponder. That way the curve stayed low and you just drew more gas. The delver idea of low land counts but vet makes up for that as once you hit 4 basically the entire deck was online. Havent played it in a while though. My next deck to play when I get a chance is Bug Things.

[square_two]

Personally I don't think Grave Titan or 6-drop creatures are what we want at all in BUG. I have been doing some working on this (finishers for Sultai) and it's a bit of a pain, really. Our basic options are:

- Nongreen 6-drops that are scary, but removable and can't be Zenithed (Deadeye, CSphinx, Grave Titan)
- Green big guys that are resilient, but still fold to Terminus and are awful elsewhere (Sagu Mauler, Primeval Titan into Towers, Simic Sky Swallower, Thrun)
- Slightly smaller green guys that are faster, relevant in other matchups, but easy to get rid of in comparison (Titania, Chameleon Colossus)
- Planeswalkers that still aren't as good as Abzan's (Garruk, Ob Nix - I'm assuming you already have a couple JTMSs)
- Some other clunky wincon like Cunning Wish for Empty the Pits or some kind of Recurring Nightmare Combo
- Splash W for a solid finisher like Sorin
- Splash C for 2-3 Thought-Knot and 1 Reality Smasher

The solution I'm leaning towards is to forget about running dedicated finishers and just play a few ways of turning our dorky value guys like Witness and Strix into threats, like 1x SoFaI and 1x SoLaS/SoFaF. Baleful Strix with a Sword is suddenly a real problem and ends the game just fine by itself.

I think BUG should focus much more on control. You've got Strix/Wall of Flowers(?) that cantrip + Brainstorm which is fantastic card advantage. I haven't experimented too much with Eldritch Evolution but I really like the idea of being able to maindeck and tutor into both Vendilion Clique and Glen Elendra Archmage. Vet -> Clique or Baleful Strix -> Glen Elendra Archmage seem like cool options. Glen Elendra even better since she can evolve into Grave Titan and Consecrated Sphinx (which I think should be the only high-end). Multiple Jace TMS plus single Thragtusk to help round out the 4-5 drops.

I haven't been online in quite a while but if I do end up with a list, I'll try to post it here. I have high hopes for the evo card helping with BUG. Maybe getting Clique into play at sorcery speed is only so-so. But GEA seems very good.

[Navsi]

@square_two

I think Clique is probably a sideboard slot.

I'd be tempted to run something like this:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Eldritch Evolution
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

2 JTMS
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
8 Fetchland
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

[4554551//]

I'd still really appreciate your guys comments on Deathrite.
Is he needed, how needed is he, is he ok to cut, or should he be run in multiples?
Again, on paper he seems very good. In practice I never gsz for it. And if you're running extra grave hate in the board, he seems even less relevant.

[jbone2016]

Kinda missed a key question for that discussion there... (Unless I missed it in the text walls?)
With a 75% win rate, (over I assume more than 2-3 tournaments), what is your meta?

And J-bone, where's that tournament report dude? Senpai still needs to teach me how to best miracles.

I'll get it tonight. Drinking and tilting on modo don't mix so well.

[Brael]

I'd still really appreciate your guys comments on Deathrite.
Is he needed, how needed is he, is he ok to cut, or should he be run in multiples?
Again, on paper he seems very good. In practice I never gsz for it. And if you're running extra grave hate in the board, he seems even less relevant.

DRS is very good, this isn't a deck that operates on one or two mana sources. Every DRS that sticks is one less land you need access to in order to function. Every DRS on the board is also one more mana you can spend when you don't curve out perfectly. DRS is both a mana source and a mana sink, for that reason he's basically the ideal card at any time. The fact that he does this while also acting as GY hate and providing a clock is incredible.

[jungleman3955]

A thought experiment that was sparked some 20 pages back by discussion on trying to make pernicious deed more effective and the miracles MU a little better. List is far from tuned but may be fun to play around with.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Voice of Resurgence

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Oath of Nissa
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Contamination

4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

[4554551//]

Everything Brael said about drs is totally true. But is 1 of worth it, when you need it at certain points in the game, against laterally select matches. And if multiples are needed, how many, and what sort of list would be run to exclude other key elements replaced by drs.

As for making deeds more effective, run flip nissa and ultimate her on their lands, then pop deed. Won me a few games

[Brael]

Everything Brael said about drs is totally true. But is 1 of worth it, when you need it at certain points in the game, against laterally select matches. And if multiples are needed, how many, and what sort of list would be run to exclude other key elements replaced by drs.

I like to run the full playset between MB and SB. I usually stick to 2 main and 2 SB. Any time Veteran Explorers come out such as against Eldrazi and Miracles I bring DRS in so that I still have acceleration.

[Echelon]

A thought experiment that was sparked some 20 pages back by discussion on trying to make pernicious deed more effective and the miracles MU a little better. List is far from tuned but may be fun to play around with.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Voice of Resurgence

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Oath of Nissa
2 Bitterblossom
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Contamination

4 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless

2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Wants to "make Deed more effective", suggests playing Bitterblossom. Do you really want to run Contamination to make Deed more effective vs. a meta where the average mana curve stops at 3..? Just take a moment and think about that one, will you..?


Everything Brael said about drs is totally true. But is 1 of worth it, when you need it at certain points in the game, against laterally select matches. And if multiples are needed, how many, and what sort of list would be run to exclude other key elements replaced by drs.

So now both Brael and I have said "run DRS, b/c reasons" and you still ask "Is it worth it" and can we provide some lists..? You know there's >300+ pages worth of discussion and lists here, right..? You could also Google some lists, put some effort into it. DRS is one of the key elements, hence pretty much every list runs between 1 and 3, on average (notice how this is never 0). And if we're going to start questioning why the hell we'd run 1-off green creatures in a deck w/ SDT & GSZ, why are we bothering with this deck at all..? And if that'd be a valid argument not to run a 1-off green creature, then what is your reasoning behind "1 Abrupt Decay is a perfectly fine spot removal suite b/c I can find it so easily"..?

[4554551//]

I don't think you're listening. Or are capable of listening. You're great at being actively unpleasant though, so good for you. The question is centred around if running multiples, what is it at the expense of. Decks I see on mtg top 8 mostly run 1. So I'm curious what people that aren't you are cutting from the usual for the extras. I don't meant specific cards as choices vary, but rather that roles that those cards had filled in the deck are being lessened in order to run multiple shamans. Draw? Pressure? Removal?
If running one, when does one zenith for it. Because what was said earlier is that he's great early against miracles. Fantastic. Is that a you're spending your turn 2 looking for it, or just hope it comes up at some point?
The difference between drs and decay is decay is a catch all answer. You need it to shut down certain situations. Be it a perstermite or a counterbalance.
Zenithing for a drs will never give you the kind of game changing result as abrupting a perstermite in response to a twin. You also shouldn't have to do it twice. Unlike having multiple shamans.
If Zenithing for the single drs is correct, when is it more correct than getting a scooze for example. If not turn 2, is that 1 mana important? When is it important? Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.
Does anyone else have input in the matter?

[Brael]

If running one, when does one zenith for it.


Why do you have to GSZ for a 1 of? It can just as easily be your 5th copy of explorer in that case, for the purposes of having early acceleration.

My acceleration suite is 4 Veteran Explorer, 1 Phyrexian Tower, 4 GSZ (for Arbor), 2 DRS. In SB games when its relevant it's -4 Explorer, +1 Carpet of Flowers, +2 DRS, +1 Sakura Tribe Elder.


Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.

My build of literally every deck I play is built around this principal. Some cards are legit tutor targets some cards are there just so I have the chance to draw them. The CA suite I use lets me see a lot of cards per game, 1 of's are pretty consistent even when I'm not tutoring them.

You'll probably never Zenith a DRS. If you need to Zenith a 1 drop for mana Explorer usually does it better, if you need GY hate, a DRS can't be online before turn 3 (and when he is he'll get one card) while an Ooze can also be on T3 but if you had acceleration he can eat multiple things. I mostly GSZ for 0 for Arbor when I need to use my GSZ for acceleration unless I suspect it's going to die.

[Echelon]

I don't think you're listening. Or are capable of listening. You're great at being actively unpleasant though, so good for you. The question is centred around if running multiples, what is it at the expense of. Decks I see on mtg top 8 mostly run 1. So I'm curious what people that aren't you are cutting from the usual for the extras. I don't meant specific cards as choices vary, but rather that roles that those cards had filled in the deck are being lessened in order to run multiple shamans. Draw? Pressure? Removal?
If running one, when does one zenith for it. Because what was said earlier is that he's great early against miracles. Fantastic. Is that a you're spending your turn 2 looking for it, or just hope it comes up at some point?
The difference between drs and decay is decay is a catch all answer. You need it to shut down certain situations. Be it a perstermite or a counterbalance.
Zenithing for a drs will never give you the kind of game changing result as abrupting a perstermite in response to a twin. You also shouldn't have to do it twice. Unlike having multiple shamans.
If Zenithing for the single drs is correct, when is it more correct than getting a scooze for example. If not turn 2, is that 1 mana important? When is it important? Or are you simply happy to come across it when you do? In which case it goes counter to the basic premise of nic fit which is every peice is there for a specific reason.
Does anyone else have input in the matter?

You don't get the answer you want to hear and you're unwilling to put some effort into finding those things out and getting to understand those things yourself so you'll shop around until the next fish bites? Cool. And you only need 1 Abrupt Decay b/c a deck w/ 3/4 SDT, 4 Ponder and 4 Brainstorm can't possibly find a 2nd Counterbalance..? And Splinter Twin is a real Legacy deck? I was not aware of that. Well, excuse me for being rude.

[jbone2016]

So....after tilt losing to a dedicate life gain deck in legacy....

Here's the list
Maindeck
Lands (22)
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp

Creatures (15)
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Siege Rhino
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
Spells (24)
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Celestial Purge
2 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage

[Echelon]

@jbone: Celestial Purge..? To what end?

[4554551//]

Brael, what matchups do you take out the explorers?
Would you still take them out against miracles if you weren't replacing them with other ramp?
I'm really curious to see your list. Having drs as essentially a 5th Explorer seems valid then..
What mechanics do you feel you compromise on to have the extras? Draw? Recursion?

[Tom4ik]

@###### # - I wouldnt run Drs in this deck at all. I dont think it is worth a slot as you rarely gsz for it and drawing it early just turns on the bolt/plow/decay that decks will usually have sitting relatively dead otherwise. The card is super powerful so the floor on it is high enough that people seem to like it but I personally would rather use the space for additional mid-game tutor targets in a zenith build or if on a bug BS/Ponder build replace it with control cards. That said if you want to run it and want to know what options are best to move around post the current list you are working on and tell people what cards you consider to be open for changing. It is hard to do in the dark as every person has different ideas as to what Nic fit can/should be as I am sure you can tell from even just the last 3 pages.

[Navsi]

With respect to Deathrites - I generally run a few in my lists. A few main reasons:

- I don't like running 4 explorers unless I'm playing a very top heavy CMC list. Drawing multiple explorers is pretty awful.
- You need a reasonable number of ramp cards to be able to legimately expect to actually be able to ramp before turn three.
- 8 ramp effects (4 Veterans and 4 Zeniths) is a little low when we are so dependent on drawing a copy of one or the other.
- Deathrite fills a ramp slot like Veteran, but isn't as explosive. In exchange it has significantly more utility and is less of an awful topdeck lategame and has relevance against some matchups as graveyard hate.

I personally like running 3 Veteran Explorer, 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder and 2 DRS + 4 Zeniths for 10 ramp cards if I'm running a standard list in terms of mana needs (normally 1 6-drop, but able to utilise excess mana with abilities / equipment).

As far as compromising other parts of the deck, I generally try to avoid losing out in other categories by doubling up slots. I usually only run 1 slot as a dedicated finisher (e.g. Sigarda) and leave the Rhinos and Grave Titans and Recurring Nightmares at home. Instead I run game ending cards which can also act as removal or card advantage / selection engines like most combat planeswalkers, equipment, or more Tireless Trackers.

[Brael]

Brael, what matchups do you take out the explorers?
Would you still take them out against miracles if you weren't replacing them with other ramp?
I'm really curious to see your list. Having drs as essentially a 5th Explorer seems valid then..
What mechanics do you feel you compromise on to have the extras? Draw? Recursion?

It comes out against Miracles, some Eldrazi builds, and any other misc deck where it feels to me like the opponent is using the Vets better than I am.

If I weren't bringing in other ramp I would leave the Vets in, the last thing you want to do is to cut the mana that lets your deck run.

My current list is posted in the last couple pages, I'm experimenting with a smaller SFM package.

I compromise on having removal early game. Once the draw engine gets going it works out fine but I'm weak to needing Path/Plow on turns 2-3.

[jbone2016]

@jbone: Celestial Purge..? To what end?

Gurmag Angler, Marit Lage token, Griselbrand, Sneak Attack

Another removal spell for DRS, Lily, Young Peezy, Nahiri (which never came up)

[cavalrywolfpack]

@Navsi Explorer does turn into gas in a deck with Tireless Tracker, which I'm still a huge proponent of. It synergizes so well with our game plan

EDIT: I'm a Modern player so maybe this is much less relevant, but it is "Bolt Test" still a factor in why some cards don't see play? I've been trying to find interesting and rogue cards for GSZ targets as of late.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Brael]

Has anyone on a junk build ever run Ranger of Eos? There's a lot of things it can tutor and it can sort of function as a 5th GSZ getting us quite a few options like DRS, Explorer, and Safekeeper.

I remember back in the days of DRS in Modern I loved having a Ranger in my Pod list. Though I could always pod into him, here I just have to draw him naturally. Still, it seems to me like a decent value card at 4 mana and the downsides are no worse than Rectors.

Also, because he gets DRS Ranger is one of the few 4 drops that passes both the Bob test, and the general SE test of generating CA so he really seems ideal.


EDIT: I'm a Modern player so maybe this is much less relevant, but it is "Bolt Test" still a factor in why some cards don't see play? I've been trying to find interesting and rogue cards for GSZ targets as of late.

The bolt test is less of a factor in Legacy. Games go longer and the removal is Swords to Plowshares and counterspells so Bolt is less of a big deal. Creatures with sub 4 toughness can still contribute such as Tireless Tracker. Also creatures in Legacy tend to be smaller. Your cards do still need to provide value against 1 mana removal or trade favorably but toughness isn't really a factor. The closest Modern analogy would be a card passing the Path test rather than the Bolt test.

[Warden]

Haven't posted in a while. Been busy busying a house, doing reno, moving in, etc.

I'm noticing lots of frustration with this deck. We all need to relax.
As for design ideas (bear with me, I barely understand the new set), Eldritch Evolution has the most potential, no?

I would consider Eldrazi/Evolution or Junk/Evolution.

[Luthiereisfun]

I am on junk colors and I have tried the 8 rhino and sfm builds and they have been fun but I am not entirely sold on them. I picked up some birthing pods and would love to hear from the people who are familiar with the pod decks.

Here's what I plan on running this Thursday at my LGS:


Creatures
4 veteran explorer
3 Deathrite shaman
1 voice of resurgence
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddock teeg
1 eldrazi displacer
1 eternal witness
1 kitchen finks
1 reclamation sage
1 Liliana heretical healer
1 tireless tracker
1 murderous redcap
1 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 doomwake giant
1 shriekmaw
1 sun Titan

Instant/sorcery
4 green Suns zenith
4 cabal therapy
2 enlightened tutor

Artifacts
3 birthing pod
1 umezawas jitte

Enchantments
2 pernicious deed
1 sylvan library

Lands
4 windswept Heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 marsh flats
2 bayou
1 Savannah
1 scrubland
1 horizon canopy
2 phyrexian tower
2 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
1 wastes

Sb
1 Pithing needle
2 Ethersworn canonist
1 Choke
1 Garruk, Relentless
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Thoughtseize
2 Tormods Crypt
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Abrupt Decay

I feel naked without my STP/PTE but noticed most builds excluded these pieces of spot removal in pod lists. I also added 2 enlightened tutor. I figure this gives me 2 extra copies of Pernicious Deed, Doomwake Giant, Sylvan Librar, Jitte and a lot of other toys post board.

Help me become one of the pod people

[Echelon]

Haven't posted in a while. Been busy busying a house, doing reno, moving in, etc.

I'm noticing lots of frustration with this deck. We all need to relax.
As for design ideas (bear with me, I barely understand the new set), Eldritch Evolution has the most potential, no?

I would consider Eldrazi/Evolution or Junk/Evolution.

It's by far the coolest card in the new set. I'm not sure if it's for this deck though. I've done a days worth of testing with it and although some cool stuff came up, I'm not sure yet if it's the real deal or The Danger Of Cool Things.

[Brael]

Help me become one of the pod people

You're going to get murdered without some meaningful interaction. You need to trade resources with your opponent, but you don't really have the cards to do so.

Also, Horizon Canopy is really, really bad.

[Nargoron]

It's by far the coolest card in the new set. I'm not sure if it's for this deck though. I've done a days worth of testing with it and although some cool stuff came up, I'm not sure yet if it's the real deal or The Danger Of Cool Things.
rather spent 1 mana more for natural order....

[Luthiereisfun]

You're going to get murdered without some meaningful interaction. You need to trade resources with your opponent, but you don't really have the cards to do so.

Also, Horizon Canopy is really, really bad.

Why is horizon canopy really really bad? Normally I would play another Savannah or scrubland but I noticed a horizon canopy in Davi's list from the mediocre league and thought to give it a go.

By meaningful interaction are you referring to the lack of spot removal?

[Brael]

Horizon Canopy is bad because it costs you tons of life and our deck is mana hungry so not using it isn't an option. 1 life per turn is too much, and it's not until very late game that you really want to cash it in. It usually costs you 4-6 life per game when you draw it, and that much life is enough to turn our best matchups like Delver into our worst.

And yes, the lack of removal at all is a big deal. In Legacy you can play what you want, but you have to pay the toll. You need a certain amount of removal, discard, and counterspells in order to have a competitive deck and your list just doesn't have it. I did watch some of the mediocre league play, the Pod list literally made me cringe at how bad the lines were.

[Luthiereisfun]

Horizon Canopy is bad because it costs you tons of life and our deck is mana hungry so not using it isn't an option. 1 life per turn is too much, and it's not until very late game that you really want to cash it in. It usually costs you 4-6 life per game when you draw it, and that much life is enough to turn our best matchups like Delver into our worst.

And yes, the lack of removal at all is a big deal. In Legacy you can play what you want, but you have to pay the toll. You need a certain amount of removal, discard, and counterspells in order to have a competitive deck and your list just doesn't have it. I did watch some of the mediocre league play, the Pod list literally made me cringe at how bad the lines were.

I think the removal point is fair and I can definitely get behind cutting clunky/cute things (sun Titan/eldrazi displacer etc..) for efficient removal to get us to the late game.

This is probably where we just have different opinions but I still don't think Horizon Canopy is that bad. Like you said the life loss can certainly be a reason to not run it but with kitchen finks, siege rhino, thragtusk and jitte I think the deck can manage running a land like canopy.

[Brael]

My opinion on Canopy is from experience with the card. I don't know how far back it is now since this thread moves pretty quick but it wasn't all that long ago (2 months maybe?) where I was trying the card. It's probably around the SE Fit discussion. I've been looking pretty hard for some form of additional CA and thought Canopy could fill the role. Drawing it early was always a disaster though, and it was easily the worst card in my deck. Canopy working out so poorly is actually what eventually lead me to using Dark Confidant, but I wouldn't suggest Bob in a Pod list.

Displacer is really interesting. It's probably the strongest creature printed in the last 2-3 years if you can make the colors work. With an active displacer it is damn near impossible to actually lose in a combat step. If you add it though you have to think of things as a 4 color list, and while you only have the one outlet for colorless mana it becomes important to have access to multiple colorless for several activation's in a turn. I think it requires a fundamentally different manabase where you're using a series of pain lands, filters, basics, and caverns with mostly humans as your creatures.

I'm pretty sure that Displacer should never be a 1 of either. If you're going in on the strategy you should be going all in.

[Echelon]

This is probably where we just have different opinions but I still don't think Horizon Canopy is that bad. Like you said the life loss can certainly be a reason to not run it but with kitchen finks, siege rhino, thragtusk and jitte I think the deck can manage running a land like canopy.

Horizon Canopy is a bad card that hurts us plenty, so we'll fix it by running another card we don't want to run? For at least half a second or so?

Yes, yes, I'm a dick, but did you really think this through before you posted it..?


rather spent 1 mana more for natural order....

Not necessarily. Drawing your NO target might just make it a dead card, drawing anything you could Evolution for is just a card you get to cast later. Yeah, NO'ing into Progenitus/Worldspine Wurm is pretty cool, but dropping Sigarda also wins plenty of games (where Sigarda isn't a dead card when drawn). Or Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed. Both are slower, but usually still good enough.

[Navsi]

The other difference between NO and Evolution is that NO requires green creatures, which limits lines a lot. Particularly when several of our best 'spare/fodder' creatures are nongreen I. E. Baleful Strix and Stoneforge Mystic.

[Echelon]

Strix isn't something you'd want to sacrifice (we don't play Elvish Visionary either), but SFM, yeah, absolutely.

Dropping SFM, use it to drop equipment and then Evolve SFM into a Siege Rhino sounds good to me. And'll usually be enough to win the game.

[AtticusBlaqk]

For those of you running Meren of Clan Nel Toth, how do you typically use her? What situations?

Is there a creature suite that you want to use her with for an engine? What decks do you find she is best against?


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[Echelon]

She shines in long, grindy MUs vs. opponents that don't play white or graveyard hate. So not vs. that many MUs at the moment. Vs. a deck like MUD she can be backbreaking when combined with Qasali Pridemage. Otherwise, recurring an Eternal Witness is a very neat trick. The Witness + Meren loop can be established with a lone Diabolic Intent. After you establish the loop (i.e. Diabolic Intent for a Phyrexian Tower), just cast PtE every turn to clear the board (or Diabolic Intent when facing an empty board). You could also use it to loop a Pernicious Deed, when you have enough mana.

When you plan to abuse Meren, make sure to include some creatures with EtB/on death triggers to generate value. She fits quite nicely in the Abzan Rhino Fit shell, as it already runs some nice looping targets.

Outside of Abzan, she plays quite well with Baleful Strix.

[Warden]

Strix isn't something you'd want to sacrifice (we don't play Elvish Visionary either), but SFM, yeah, absolutely.

Dropping SFM, use it to drop equipment and then Evolve SFM into a Siege Rhino sounds good to me. And'll usually be enough to win the game.

This was more or less my thinking given where my list was with Junk-Fit a few months back.
The upside of E.Evolution is that you're not bound to green things. Unfortunately, just like NO, the spell is still high risk <--> high return.

[Echelon]

So far the return hasn't been worth the risk for me (and this comes from someone that does his sudoku in pen).

Maybe it was just me, maybe it was my build, maybe the deck just had an off day, I don't know. It's surely not an auto-include and (as much as it pains me) I'm strongly leaning towards considering it The Danger Of Cool Things.

My heart bleeds a little bit for this card.

[Navsi]

So I've been messing around with four colour manabases, and came up with this:

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats

2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island

2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra

1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower

Adds up to 22 lands, with 15 G sources, 14B and 13W/13U. With that in mind, we can potentially put something together which combines some of the high points of the Abzan and Sultai lists.

- Baleful Strix and Stoneforge play well together since it's nice to have cheap fliers to carry your equipment. Also makes the list good at stabilizing which is important when you're playing Mana Confluence.
- Path To Exile (or Swords) makes the deck's removal significantly better.
- Brainstorm is great with the absurd numbers of shuffle effects we run.

- However we probably can't run JTMS & Sigarda since they both require double-colour of our splash colours. It might be doable but is definitely harder than in a standard 3Colour list. IMO Jace is a better choice, since he's better when we aren't looking to end the game (providing filtering / removal) rather than acting as a relatively uninteresting beatdown option. It might well be correct to run neither, though - it might not be worth trying to make double blue mana.

The core of the list (i.e the reason we're running these colour) probably looks something like this:

3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

Vet numbers are a little down and DRS numbers are up, just because rainbow mana is pretty important in this deck. We also are probably going to have a relatively low curve (because SFM and Strix) so we probably aren't quite as dependent on getting a Veteran Explorer activation as normal.

3 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Card advantage, stabilization, finishers. Synergise with each other. In you go.

1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Thragtusk

Makes Zenith act as CA, stabilization and finisher. Pretty standard.

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Card Advantage and filtering. Less zeniths since we're going to have less targets than normal. Singleton top since the first one we draw is much better than the rest, and Top/Brainstorm are great with all our shuffles from Zenith/Fetch/SFM/Vet. We can't run too many do-nothing cantrip style slots though. Might want a third Brainstorm.

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile (or Swords to Plowshares)
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

Therapy is still great, and we'll have a lot of fodder creatures. Swords/Path is unconditional and great. Abrupt Decay for Counterbalance, Chalice and other annoying problems. Fewer deeds than normal since Strix+SFM makes us good at stabilizing already and less Deed-dependent.

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Stoneforge targets that help us stabilise, win board control, and then kill our opponent. Batterskull is nice but rather on the mana hungry side.

That's 32 cards. We have 6-7 slots left to finish the deck up, with this setup currently:

- Ramp: 8 (3 Veteran Explorer, 2 Deathrite Shaman, 3 Green Sun's Zenith)
This is a little low, but we are curving out at 5. We could potentially add in another Zenith and another ramp creature (maybe an STE) but we'd need to add some more Zenith targets too. Not that that's necessarily a mistake.

- Interaction: 15 (2 Equipment, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Path/Swords, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Pernicious Deed)
This is fine, but could potentially do with an extra couple. We don't have that much interaction with large creatures, large noncreatures, or non-board affecting combos like Storm. Glen Elendra Archmage, an Anguished Unmaking, or JTMS for the bounce could help us out here.

- Stabilization: 17 (3 Vet, 3 Strix, 3 GSZ, 1 Thragtusk, 5 removal spells, 2 Deed)
I've added this in to my evaluation. I'm looking at cards that help us deal with a threatening enemy board state, either by removing their stuff or making them not want to attack. Stoneforge doesn't count since she costs a lot of mana to actually make the opponent not want to attack, and equipment doesn't help unless we already have creatures. These numbers are probably fine, but maybe a Siege Rhino to provide another zenithable combat-winner could be handy.

- Draw/Filtering: 14 (3 Strix, 2 SFM, 3 GSZ, 1 Witness, 1 TTracker, 2 Brainstorm, 1 SDT, 1 SoFaI)
This is a little on the low side, when you consider that we're running Brainstorm and so have more single-use effects. Jaces would be helpful, as would other planeswalkers like Sorin GN. Adding a couple more Brainstorms would help out somewhat too. If we want more permanent options, we could also add in another copy of Tireless Tracker and Eternal Witness, both of which are pretty effective CA options and can also hold a sword and threaten to kill people. Meren of Clan Nel Toth could work too, but I like it when my CA engines work against Miracles.

- Finishers: 11 (2 SFM, 2 Equipment, 1 TTracker, 1 Thragtusk, 3 GSZ, 2 Deathrite)
We could do with a couple more here, but that's to be expected. All our finishers rely on creatures which isn't necessarily a good position to be in. However they also aren't easy to 1-for-1 which helps. A lot of the good blockers in the format are red or blue (TNN, Pyro tokens) and we have Strix to hold our SoFaI against Moats, so we can generally get our attackers in, but it might help to have noncombat options for stuff like Ensnaring Bridge. JTMS is fine although he has double blue in his mana cost, so we could instead go with Big Sorin or something.

For reference, we currently have 5 cards with [W] symbols (Stoneforge and Swords/Path) and 5 cards with [U] symbols (Strix and Brainstorm). We have 16 [G] symbols (with one GG on Eternal Witness) and 13 [B] symbols.

If we want to take the risk of running a double-colour card, I'd lean towards something like this for the last seven cards:

+1 Eternal Witness
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Siege Rhino
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Combat Planeswalker (Garruk Relentless or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad)
- Swap Phyrexian Tower for a second Island

Or to play it safe and keep to single-symbol cards in the splash colours:

+1 Tireless Tracker
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Siege Rhino
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder

[AtticusBlaqk]

I appreciate the feedback from your experience.

She had not done a lot for me in the list thus far. I have replaced her with a copy of Master of the Wild Hunt.

I really wanted her to work but it just doesn't seem to fit the winning strategy.


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[square_two]

I appreciate the feedback from your experience.

She had not done a lot for me in the list thus far. I have replaced her with a copy of Master of the Wild Hunt.

I really wanted her to work but it just doesn't seem to fit the winning strategy.


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She can definitely be iffy, especially in certain matchups. You really have to ask yourself how many interactions you have to make her worth it. Number of small dudes, inclusion of Dryad Arbor, whether or not you choose to include other forms of graveyard interaction (Recurring Nightmare), ETB effects including Qasali Pridemage or Siege Rhino.

The thing is, she can just completely seal the deal against many ground-based decks. If your Eldrazi, Shardless, general goyf or Maverick matchups are already good, then she isn't needed as much. I like her in my Junk SFM due to higher count of small dudes, Arbor, and few other graveyard interactions it has. If I make many other changes (might add another combat walker...or two...or three) then I'd replace her.

[Luthiereisfun]

Horizon Canopy is a bad card that hurts us plenty, so we'll fix it by running another card we don't want to run? For at least half a second or so?

Yes, yes, I'm a dick, but did you really think this through before you posted it..?



Not necessarily. Drawing your NO target might just make it a dead card, drawing anything you could Evolution for is just a card you get to cast later. Yeah, NO'ing into Progenitus/Worldspine Wurm is pretty cool, but dropping Sigarda also wins plenty of games (where Sigarda isn't a dead card when drawn). Or Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed. Both are slower, but usually still good enough.

Where did I say I would "fix" the issue by running another card I don't want to run? Like I have said I have never had the life loss from Horizon Canopy be that bad in the first place and there was already plenty of life-gain to offset it making its inclusion seem pretty reasonable..do you ever think before you post? Or do you just embrace coming off us as an insufferable contrarian?

[Brael]

- However we probably can't run JTMS & Sigarda since they both require double-colour of our splash colours. It might be doable but is definitely harder than in a standard 3Colour list. IMO Jace is a better choice, since he's better when we aren't looking to end the game (providing filtering / removal) rather than acting as a relatively uninteresting beatdown option. It might well be correct to run neither, though - it might not be worth trying to make double blue mana.


Let me make a suggestion Roon of the Hidden Realm. It's similar to Eldrazi Displacer, can be GSZ'ed, has a reasonable body. Another one to maybe consider would be Stoic Angel. They're both easily splashable, use blue, and can be tutored.

[Dominic Pain]

has anyone thought about distended mindbreaker in an abzan fit deck? double black doesn't seem too hard get and the deck has been looking for hand disruption on a stick. it's not zenithable but

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[Brael]

has anyone thought about distended mindbreaker in an abzan fit deck? double black doesn't seem too hard get and the deck has been looking for hand disruption on a stick. it's not zenithable but

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It comes down pretty late. If you want creature based hand disruption try out Tidehollow Sculler. I've run them over Thoughtseize from time to time and they work alright.

[aicnelavo]

I play junk decks, frequently switching between loam nic fit and junk deathblade, basing my deck around its disruption package and letting the rest of the deck follow.

When it comes time to play nice fit again I always run the standard 4 rhino junk build.
I find that displacer plus rhinos and witnesses ect works out well.
I feel a lot of disdain or hesitancy with displacer. With mostly etb creatures what is the real downside of displacer?

[Brael]

With mostly etb creatures what is the real downside of displacer?

Colorless mana.

[4554551//]

Event results

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

Spells:17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

I went 3/1 again with the above list in a recent event. That was my own misplay as I'll explain, rather than a fault with the deck.

Elves
G1 Landed an early jitte and ate his field.
G2 Another early jitte but it wasn't enough as he chained reclamation sage and glimpse into 4 more elves including sentinels and heritage druid, and craterhoof
G3 Was interesting. I played turn 1 vet into turn 2 land pass. His turn 2 ended with a DRS, heritage druid and nettle sentinel in play. I sensed the embrace of death coming next turn so out of despiration, end of his turn 2 I pathed my vet, allowing me to turn 3 drop deed and still have 1 mana. That slowed him right down. I got down good pressure shortly but he ended up dropping a dude and using natural order. I was getting ready to scoop as I discovered he didn't have a progenitus in his 75 and a craterhoof at that point wasn't enough.
2-1. If he had progenitus I would have lost. Elves is still a really, really rough matchup and I would love some advise on how to handle it.

Lands
G1 Veteran explorer>tower>zenith for scooze. Therapy his fires and eat them both. Closed out there with a scooze and a tracker.
G2 Turn 3 leige-game
G3 Turn 3 leige. I path it, and with depths, stage and loam in grave, I surgical his loam. He's got one card in hand then draws stage, then draws gamble for depths, gets through the 50/50 and I can't stop the second leige. Lessons learned in blood I suppose. Should have taken a combo peice. Asked around, got a pretty even spread on post fact advise on which was the correct surgical target at that point. I'm fairly sure now it's one of the two land, but still not sure which one. Advise welcome
1-2

A grixis bloodghast/prized amalgam, and greater gargadon. Interesting deck. He beat miracles round 1 and lost to something round 2.
G1 Scooze
G2 Scooze + surgical
Was rough for him as I specifically packed my 75 full of grave hate for combo decks.
2-0

Sneak attack
G1 he didn't see sneak attack or breach. Had a turn 2 moon though, but didn't slow me down for long enough.
G2 he went all in on a chalice for 1 with mountain>guide. Had a petal and 2 sneak attacks in hand, a breach plus some big stuff. Just needed a sol land, or any land... he never saw another mana source. Turn 4 GSZ into rec-sage, then stripped his hand with therapies. Rough. Shut me down well though. 2 surgical, 2 therapy and a veteran rotting away. My first play was turn 4. Real rough luck on his part.
2-0

Upon further reflection, I need more answers for elves. They're somewhat prominent in the meta, and are really resiliant. Progenitus is a massive problem, even if, with difficulty, I can stop the craterhoof plan.
Not sold on sorin. He's really there for miracles, but I brought him in against land. Didn't see him, didn't care. That 6 drop sideboard slot needs an answer. Contenders atm are sorin, grave titan, dromoka and sigarda. Tossing up the idea of ruric thar, because if miracles don't counter him he at a minimum deals 6. Also against combo. The kind that you can slow down a bit by ripping apart their hand, but they can still topdeck glory. Don't really think he's good enough to make the cut, but that slot is open for now.

I don't think DRS is comming back. Never missed him.
Not sold on two trackers. One is often really good, and I'm running two so that I can drop him in that mid game without having to zenith for it. Found myself siding one out a lot. Needs more testing.
Jit was main mostly for miracles, and was supposed to provide flexiblity vs a few different things. It's performance vs elves is keeping it right where it is.
Nissa is a incredible. I would encourage people to give her a run. Happy to have a discussion about her and her uses :)
In regards to the recent Meren discussion, she's been amazing in my particular build. But then I run things like driad arbor, recurring nightmare, and qasali pridemage. She's really good just past the mid game, when you've both used up your resources and it's now time to get back into the game. Basically if I need to get back non creature (usually deeds), I go looking for witness. If I need creatures and pressure, I get meren then stat recurring rhinos, or often nissa, who came down, got a forrest then died. Comes back this time for a flip that same turn
In regards to the recent canopy dicussion, I love mine. Sometimes you get it early, take a bit of damage, nothing a rhino or tusk won't fix. I found if this deck loses, it's by a landslide, and not by 2-5 health. Whereas late it's a bit of extra gas, works great with titania/titan. Basically the downside has been negligeble, and the upside can get you over that late game hump.

[aicnelavo]

Colorless mana hasn't been an issue for me, however I run a non conventional land base.
Has there been any thoughts on eerie interlude?

It dodges deed, terminus, and retriggers etbs.
Might be better than displacer.

[Brael]

Colorless mana hasn't been an issue for me, however I run a non conventional land base.

Unconventional or not, adding what is essentially a 4th color comes with some costs. Displacer has the same problem that Slaughter Games had, which a lot of people tried to run by splashing a Taiga. If you want Displacer to work you're going to need a minimum of 14 colorless sources, not including Veteran Explorer fetching up Wastes. It's not possible to do that without skimping on other colors.



G3 Was interesting. I played turn 1 vet into turn 2 land pass. His turn 2 ended with a DRS, heritage druid and nettle sentinel in play. I sensed the embrace of death coming next turn so out of despiration, end of his turn 2 I pathed my vet, allowing me to turn 3 drop deed and still have 1 mana. That slowed him right down.

Veteran Explorer is a dies trigger which means to move from the battlefield to the graveyard. Path exiles so that it never dies. This wasn't a legal play.


If he had progenitus I would have lost. Elves is still a really, really rough matchup and I would love some advise on how to handle it.

Run more removal. If you prevent their CA engines they're really slow to set up and you can keep their board under control as you force blocks.

[Luthiereisfun]

Unconventional or not, adding what is essentially a 4th color comes with some costs. Displacer has the same problem that Slaughter Games had, which a lot of people tried to run by splashing a Taiga. If you want Displacer to work you're going to need a minimum of 14 colorless sources, not including Veteran Explorer fetching up Wastes. It's not possible to do that without skimping on other colors.



Veteran Explorer is a dies trigger which means to move from the battlefield to the graveyard. Path exiles so that it never dies. This wasn't a legal play.



Run more removal. If you prevent their CA engines they're really slow to set up and you can keep their board under control as you force blocks.

I think he meant he path'd his veteran explorer to hit the 3rd land drop from the land that path gives, not the vet trigger.

[4554551//]

I did mean the land I get from the path, yes.

What removal stops them dropping any dude/fetching into arbor, holding priority and casting one of their natural orders into progenitos?
Are you suggesting I run some form of edict or councils judgement? Or toxic deluge for 10?

[Brael]

I think he meant he path'd his veteran explorer to hit the 3rd land drop from the land that path gives, not the vet trigger.

Ahh right, didn't think about the land. That would work.



What removal stops them dropping any dude/fetching into arbor, holding priority and casting one of their natural orders into progenitos?
Are you suggesting I run some form of edict or councils judgement? Or toxic deluge for 10?

If you keep their board clear Craterhoof doesn't win the game. Craterhoof with two guys is 13. They need 3 guys after the NO to really threaten you. More interaction goes a long way to keeping them off of 3 guys. Elves relies on it's CA to get to and stay at 3 creatures. A mix of discard, Teeg, Jitte, spot removal, Surgical (best used as a discard spell), and DRS (mainly to counter their own DRS) can usually get you there. That's how I handle the matchup.

DRS helps a lot, one of the reasons you're likely not seeing as much value though is that you're already at 28 mana sources because you're running 2 more lands than the typical list.

[4554551//]

Oh, I totally get what you're saying about the crater hoof line. It's the natural order into progenitus I struggle with. What do you do there?
Teeg alone isn't enough

[Brael]

Oh, I totally get what you're saying about the crater hoof line. It's the natural order into progenitus I struggle with. What do you do there?
Teeg alone isn't enough

If you're in a meta where edicts are good and it sounds like you might be with Marit Lage and Progenitus to worry about, have you considered the new card Blessed Alliance? I know from experience that Celestial Flare is super powerful, no one ever expects the edict out of white but where Flare is too tough for this deck to cast, Alliance isn't. And it has additional upside since it can function as a mana sink.

[Echelon]

Where did I say I would "fix" the issue by running another card I don't want to run? Like I have said I have never had the life loss from Horizon Canopy be that bad in the first place and there was already plenty of life-gain to offset it making its inclusion seem pretty reasonable..do you ever think before you post? Or do you just embrace coming off us as an insufferable contrarian?

You go for the "well this card has never been that bad for me, so I'll just hear what I want to hear" line and make me out to be the badguy for pointing out that playing bad cards to make other bad cards less bad isn't the way you want to go? Lol, whatever floats your boat man.


Run more removal. If you prevent their CA engines they're really slow to set up and you can keep their board under control as you force blocks.

No, no, 1 AD as spot removal suite is fine. You don't need cheap board sweepers in your SB either.


What removal stops them dropping any dude/fetching into arbor, holding priority and casting one of their natural orders into progenitos?
Are you suggesting I run some form of edict or councils judgement? Or toxic deluge for 10?

Elves! is a deck that typically runs only 14 lands that make mana when there are no creature on the field. Without enough creatures they have a lot of trouble getting 4 mana. Also, if Toxic Deluge for 10 is what keeps you from dying then yes, by all means do so. Losing 10 life doesn't equal losing the game. Edict effects also don't necessarily get you there. As soon as they drop another creature it's useless. And they can also keep up a fetch to turn it into an Arbor in response to Edict effects. Elves! usually doesn't run Progenitus though. If it's making a resurgence it might be worth it to run Council's Judgment. Also does some splash damage vs. Miracles and Sneak & Show, so it isn't the worst card to have in a SB.

[4554551//]

I've not considered blessed alliance. I was actually largely sarcastic about edicts. Merit comes in end of turn and killing progenitus just buys you some turns. I'm also largely concerned about the wisdom of saying kill all of elves dorks forever to keep them off 4 mana..
What do you think about something like a crop rotation effect for the karakas? Could also get the other land in a pinch. I originally ran knight of reliquary for that purpose but that's too slow. But that won't help vs progenitus.
Maybe blessed is the way to go. Judgement is good but doesn't hit leige. Other ideas anyone?

[Echelon]

I've not considered blessed alliance. I was actually largely sarcastic about edicts. Merit comes in end of turn and killing progenitus just buys you some turns. I'm also largely concerned about the wisdom of saying kill all of elves dorks forever to keep them off 4 mana..
What do you think about something like a crop rotation effect for the karakas? Could also get the other land in a pinch. I originally ran knight of reliquary for that purpose but that's too slow. But that won't help vs progenitus.
Maybe blessed is the way to go. Judgement is good but doesn't hit leige. Other ideas anyone?

Is NO -> Progenitus really that much of a problem in your meta? Also, I'm not saying you can keep them off 4 mana forever, but you can at least put some more effort into it so you can get into a position where a Rhino and a Sigarda (or something along those lines) gets you there. Scavenging Ooze is also pretty good vs. Elves. Grows big quickly and gains you life while doing so. Don't get me wrong, Elves!'ll always be a tricky MU. I run 4 PtE, 3 Pernicious Deed and have 2 Golgari Charm in the SB and it's still somewhat of a coin toss.

I don't know if Crop Rotation is where we want to be. You should look on vs. which MUs you'd want to use it and weigh the opportunity cost of what you'd normally run in its place. If you mean to use it vs. Merit Lage, that deck also runs Wasteland + Life from the Loam. Pithing Needle on Thespian's Stage might be better.

[4554551//]

Is NO -> Progenitus really that much of a problem in your meta? Also, I'm not saying you can keep them off 4 mana forever, but you can at least put some more effort into it so you can get into a position where a Rhino and a Sigarda (or something along those lines) gets you there. Scavenging Ooze is also pretty good vs. Elves. Grows big quickly and gains you life while doing so. Don't get me wrong, Elves!'ll always be a tricky MU. I run 4 PtE, 3 Pernicious Deed and have 2 Golgari Charm in the SB and it's still somewhat of a coin toss.

I don't know if Crop Rotation is where we want to be. You should look on vs. which MUs you'd want to use it and weigh the opportunity cost of what you'd normally run in its place. If you mean to use it vs. Merit Lage, that deck also runs Wasteland + Life from the Loam. Pithing Needle on Thespian's Stage might be better.

Yes, progenitus elves is a thing here.
Karakas also helps vs reanimator / sneak decks. Worst case, get wasteland or tower, or even volraths.

Alrighty COMMUNITY CHALLENGE:
Taking into account that merit lage comes in end of turn and one shots you;
What is a card that deals both with him and progenitus? Let's see what options we have.

[Echelon]

Terminus and Peacekeeper come to mind.

Not much else though.

[4554551//]

Peacekeeper you say..
I like that.. Stops repeat offenders. Punishing fire is a problem, but you can't have it all..
Good, good. Other thoughts? Let's crowd source this!

[Navsi]

Humility
Edict effects (personally I like To The Slaughter for also killing Jace)
Faster clock of our own (ie. Scapeshift or other combo plan)
Elephant Grass / Blazing Archon / Peacekeeper

[Echelon]

Humility might be too slow @4 mana. And how (and when) do you plan to drop Blazing Archon (and have it happening fast and consistently enough)..?

[Navsi]

Could always play our own copies of NO and run Elderscale Wurm. Lands and Elves don't have an answer (unless Elves runs Shaman of the Pack).

I don't think it's something to worry about that much. We have spot removal for Marit Lage, and Progenitus is not exactly common even in Elves at the moment.

[4554551//]

A sub-playset of paths is all we really have for leige and progenitus is common for me at least. It really gives elves resilience.
Plus whatever we come up with here would also help with reanimator and sneak. Yay fringe benefits.

Not proud of this one, but just spitballing here:
Ensnaring bridge?

[Echelon]

I don't think it's something to worry about that much. We have spot removal for Marit Lage, and Progenitus is not exactly common even in Elves at the moment.

Preaching to the choir, sister.

[Ulysse95]

Crackling doom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crackling+Doom) would be the best, but needs a red splash.

If you ask me, I would say Humility. But that's just me ;)

One of the best answers would be: Hallowed Moonlight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hallowed+Moonlight)

It's a can trip
Manage Merit and an opponnent NO/GSZ at instant speed
Also very good against any reanimate deck

[Echelon]

Leaving 3 non-green mana open is quite the opportunity cost, if you ask me...

[Luthiereisfun]

You go for the "well this card has never been that bad for me, so I'll just hear what I want to hear" line and make me out to be the badguy for pointing out that playing bad cards to make other bad cards less bad isn't the way you want to go? Lol, whatever floats your boat man.

To which bad cards am I playing that I mentioned to make the life loss from Horizon Canopy off set. I mentioned Siege Rhino, Thragtusk, Kitchen Finks and Umezawa's Jitte.

Siege Rhino and Thragtusk are both pretty common in junk nic fit and both have nice ETB. Siege Rhino has a big body and trample which means he can't be chump blocked all day and Thragtusks second triggered ability is very good, especially against decks like Miracles with Terminus.

Kitchen Finks is ran as a value creature that you can pod into when you aren't looking for a silver bullet and just want to keep podding up into bigger threats. Its also good against aggro decks.

Umezawa's jitte is here for matchups like DnT, Elves and other creature based decks to own the battlefield.

None of these cards are ran to "off set" the life from horizon canopy they are ran for different purposes as mentioned above. It is because they all gain life that adding horizon canopy seemed reasonable.

[Echelon]

Kitchen Finks sucks. Why bother w/ Finks when you can Pod to Eternal Witness, Pod Witness into Meren, recur Witness, Pod Witness into Siege Rhino for several turns in a row?

Or Pod your 2-drop into Eternal Witness, regrow your 2-drop, Pod your 2-drop into Eldrazi Displacer and start bouncing your Eternal Witness..? Displacer + Witness + Path to Exile = screw you, Merit Lage!

[Luthiereisfun]

Kitchen Finks sucks. Why bother w/ Finks when you can Pod to Eternal Witness, Pod Witness into Meren, recur Witness, Pod Witness into Siege Rhino for several turns in a row?

Or Pod your 2-drop into Eternal Witness, regrow your 2-drop, Pod your 2-drop into Eldrazi Displacer and start bouncing your Eternal Witness..? Displacer + Witness + Path to Exile = screw you, Merit Lage!

I can 100% get behind that

[4554551//]

So what are peoples thoughts on bridge?
Stops elves until they can bring out a rec sage in addition to the other stuff.
Hinders sneak attack, reanimator, merit lage. Some of those decks don't even have an answer for it.
Bring it in vs merfolk as they can grow out of hand and keep looping rhinos.
May be a bit cute, but it's a hard to answer, very broad answer.

[Navsi]

Bridge is alright. We should probably have tested it more than we have.

Good against:

- Eldrazi
- Elves
- Sneak and Show
- Reanimator
- Lands

Sneak and Show, Lands and Reanimator will generally have to remove the Bridge.

Eldrazi gets shut down pretty well, I guess they're on Endbringer pings?

Elves have removal for Bridge, or can just kill you with Shaman of the Pack.

Problems, though:

- Doesn't come in against Miracles
- Doesn't come in against Storm
- Doesn't come in against Death and Taxes
- Doesn't come in against Delver

I don't know if we have slots available for cards which aren't relevant in any of those. Personally 100% of my sideboard is relevant in one or more of those matchups - I shore up Elves by running Golgari Charm which also helps with DnT.

[Echelon]

Hinders sneak attack, reanimator, merit lage. Some of those decks don't even have an answer for it.
Bring it in vs merfolk as they can grow out of hand and keep looping rhinos.
May be a bit cute, but it's a hard to answer, very broad answer.

Bridge is one of the standard hate cards those decks face, ofcourse they have answers to it. Seriously.

Merfolk should be managable w/ your spot removal suite (as long as it's > 1 Abrupt Decay) and Pernicious Deeds, no need to bring in Bridge there. You should only aim to use Bridge vs. decks that sneak fatties into play. When doing so, be aware that it's mostly just a speedbump - you still need to close the game ASAP.

[4554551//]

Sure, it is a speedbump, but that's still better than no speedbump.
It's also a matter of maybe getting away with it game 2 as they may not expect a bridge out of nicfit, or 3 if it's not seen game 2.
I'd bring it in for miracles. Sure it's not amazing, but holds off angels and monks. They have disenchant but then they have to deal with it and deeds. Not great, but we've got a lot we can take out.

Also, golgari charm.. It's a nice hit for instant gain, but I've really been getting mileage out of engineered play. Names elves, merfolk, and against delver decks and hate bears, names human.
Also against miracles names monk and against infect inkmoth (or blinkmoth is the type I believe) . Or human if you're having agent problems. With heirarcs being a bonus casualty (again both human)

[Echelon]

Also, golgari charm.. It's a nice hit for instant gain, but I've really been getting mileage out of engineered play. Names elves, merfolk, and against delver decks and hate bears, names human.
Also against miracles names monk and against infect inkmoth (or blinkmoth is the type I believe) . Or human if you're having agent problems. With heirarcs being a bonus casualty (again both human)

Yet costs 1 mana more, which can be the difference between life and death.

On a side note, vs. Elves! Golgari Charm also takes out Wirewood Symbiote, which is a pretty big thing. As a former Elves! pilot I can tell you Plague isn't quite the end-all and b/c Charm also kills off Symbiote it possibly hurts the Elves! player more than Engineered Plague does. But that's just nit picking.

[square_two]

Bridge is one of the standard hate cards those decks face, ofcourse they have answers to it. Seriously.

Merfolk should be managable w/ your spot removal suite (as long as it's > 1 Abrupt Decay) and Pernicious Deeds, no need to bring in Bridge there. You should only aim to use Bridge vs. decks that sneak fatties into play. When doing so, be aware that it's mostly just a speedbump - you still need to close the game ASAP.

Bridge is also something that no one would really expect from Nic Fit. Not saying it's a good idea...maybe as a siding replacement for Deeds against the decks that sneak stuff in? I often have a lot of trouble with Sneak/Show.

If it has a home in Nic Fit as a sideboard card, it would probably be in a more controlling walker shell. I could see BUG Fit with Jace and Liliana being willing to have Bridges available. Or something close to what Danny is running in the Mediocre League - 4 Oath of Nissa, 9 Planeswalkers (which I really really want to try sometime).

Curious question - are there any 5-6 drop bomby creatures, preferably green, that can win a game, or control the board through a Bridge? I don't think we are a bridge deck, but am just curious if there are any GSZ-able creatures that can reliably win under one.

[Whitefaces]

Diabolic Edict or Clip Wings are fine answers to Marit Lage that will come in vs a number of other decks. Edict is likely better generally, but Clip Wings gets a Delver even with YP on board.

[Ricardio]

JBone got a shout out from Seth(SaffronOlive) from mtggoldfish

go vote for the deck tech so we can get more viewership. Youtube/mtggoldfish

[jbone2016]

JBone got a shout out from Seth(SaffronOlive) from mtggoldfish

go vote for the deck tech so we can get more viewership. Youtube/mtggoldfish

My buddies mentioned that to me. Sweet.
Also, I resolved and ultimated an Ugin against miracles yesterday. That was sweet.

[Brael]

So I've been thinking about my question a page or two back about Ranger of Eos. The conclusion I've come to is that it's basically the same thing as Stoneforge Mystic. They're both non GSZ'able tutors that act as mana sinks, and can swing. The only question is, would you rather tutor equipment or 1 drops.

Here's the pro's/con's I see for each
Stoneforge Mystic:
Pro:
Equipment (Jitte/SoFaI) can act as removal.
Equipment can act as a threat (Batterskull).
Is an early game 2 for 1.
Fills 2, 3, 4, 5 and 7 on the curve.
Flips to Bob for 2.

Con:
Takes up 3 slots minimum, more likely 7.
Equipment needs creatures, but including the package reduces creature count.
Package reduces removal count.
Equipment is very vulnerable to discard.
Weak body on it's own. Very weak if removed before activating.
First SFM is much better than the second.
Dies to Deed.

Ranger of Eos:
Pro:
Takes few slots.
Is a mid game 3 for 1.
Mid sized body.
Can ramp from 4 to 6 to GSZ Sigarda.
Can gain life.
Tutor targets are less vulnerable to discard.
Can represent A LOT of power (tutor Hangarback/Endless One + body)
Can go wide, tall, dodge combat/ramp (DRS), or even control (Sylvan Safekeeper)

Con:
Baseline targets are 4 Vets/2 DRS, extras come out of other slots.
2 Toughness
Flips to Bob for 4 (though DRS can mitigate this)
Baseline tutor package is low impact outside of DRS
Can do nothing before 4 mana
Higher on the curve means fewer can be run

Anything I missed? The more I think about it the more I really want to run Ranger of Eos. Unfortunately I think I'm committed to Burn at my next Legacy event or two in order to back up some recent theories I've come up with, with experience so it will be awhile before I really get to test Ranger. There's just something about the idea of Ranger of Eos, tutor Sylvan Safekeeper, Hangarback Walker, next turn make a big Hangarback with protection or the old standby of play Ranger get double Deathrite that I really like. I could also get behind making a giant Endless One so that I'm not reliant on just Rhino/Sigarda for a big body. If you want to get really tricky assuming you've got a Therapy you could get Dryad Arbor+Veteran Explorer and drop 3 lands in a turn for Tracker making him a Harmonize on a 3/2 body. If you want to go deep you could even tutor up a Kytheon with Safekeeper to protect it.

[aicnelavo]

So I've been thinking about my question a page or two back about Ranger of Eos

All of these cards demand design space. Sfm/Eos ect.
So for a four drop would you rather have 2 1 drops or an equipment?
In the conventional junk fit I would rather have the deck space. With the rhinos and meren it can get a bit cramped.
While card advantage can be an issue with this deck [atleast in my experience], you want to make sure that when you drop him he's better than a rhino or a meren I'm the situation.

Thoughts?

[Brael]

All of these cards demand design space. Sfm/Eos ect.
So for a four drop would you rather have 2 1 drops or an equipment?
In the conventional junk fit I would rather have the deck space. With the rhinos and meren it can get a bit cramped.
While card advantage can be an issue with this deck [atleast in my experience], you want to make sure that when you drop him he's better than a rhino or a meren I'm the situation.

Thoughts?

Ranger demands 1 slot for a minimal package. We already run 7 targets typically between 4 Vet/2 DRS/1 Arbor. Getting 2 DRS puts a very real clock into play (not to mention a nice mana sink since you'll be getting to the point where you can use it). Getting 1 DRS, 1 Vet isn't horrible and the package also does double duty with your GSZ's. Where you start running into space issues is when you go beyond the basic package. I found the full SFM package of 3 SFM's 3 Equipment to take up too many spaces in the deck and I found my half package of 1 SFM 2 Equipment to not be potent enough. I think it would be reasonable here to make a package of 1 Ranger, 1 tutor target. That frees up one more card from the SFM package which can be a much needed removal spell and gives me some utility while still maintaining a decent array of tutor targets. It also offers the opportunity for SB slots.

CA is really the least of my concerns in my build, but it is something I like to maximize in order to keep it being such a small concern. What's great about Ranger though in my opinion is that it's the first 4 drop I've come up with that's playable in Junk, isn't a bad Bob flip, and generates CA. Rhinos are great for categories 1 and 2 while Meren is great for 2 and 3, but Ranger is all 3 at the cost of not being a GSZ target.

It's something that I really want to try the more I think about it.

[Bobmans]

My buddies mentioned that to me. Sweet.
Also, I resolved and ultimated an Ugin against miracles yesterday. That was sweet.
Sweet, what did you play?

[jbone2016]

Sweet, what did you play?

Main
Lands
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp (should be another fetch, but Verdant $$$)
3 Forest
2 Plains

Creatures
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman (might go back to explorer #4)
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

Spells
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
1 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth (still disappointed with her)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage

[Echelon]

Curious question - are there any 5-6 drop bomby creatures, preferably green, that can win a game, or control the board through a Bridge? I don't think we are a bridge deck, but am just curious if there are any GSZ-able creatures that can reliably win under one.

Deathrite Shaman comes to mind :laugh:. And looping a Siege Rhino. Bridge gives you plenty of time to mess around with Meren.

[cavalrywolfpack]

Sorry I haven't posted in a while. I've been in training to be a summer camp couselor. What's the advantage to running Sakura-Tribe Elder over another Explorer? Without Meren I really don't see the benefit.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

On-demand sacrifice. You don't always have a CT/Tower/Intent when you need one.

[cavalrywolfpack]

I'm guessing blocking isn't much of an out because there aren't too many creature decks? How's the Punishing Jund matchup? Is it superbly grindy?

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[Navsi]

STE over Vet:

- Ramps on its own (without needing a sacrifice outlet)
- Denies Jitte counters / Lifelink triggers
- On-demand sacrifice against Bridge from Below
- If you need an equipment holder, slightly less awkward with Deed
- Fetches Swamp so you can cast Therapy and actually sacrifice Veterans

[cavalrywolfpack]

Is it more of a meta choice then? I would run it but the Eldrazi decks run one Jitte in the sideboard and there are zero dredge decks in my meta. But I lack black fetches so should I run one? Is Meren good against Eldrazi? Sorry for the myriad of questions, I'm pretty tired. I've gotten roughly 5 hours of sleep every night for the past two weeks and it's starting to wear down on me.

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[Echelon]

Points 1, 2, 3 and 5 are identical. Lol.

@cavalry: It's mostly personal preference.

[Navsi]

They're all variants on 'you can sacrifice it on its own' but that has relevance in multiple different scenarios.

If you don't see much Dredge or DnT, and you're able to get to 14 Black sources in your mana base, you can probably just run Veterans and be fine.

[Brael]

Going with this the next time I get to play. Going to give Ranger of Eos a try. I really like that the tutor package still keeps the creature count up, which is something SFM doesn't have going for it. Also, enough of this list ended up as Humans that I thought Cavern could be interesting so I'm giving it a shot over the 6th basic (or perhaps, it should be over the Marsh Flats). The removal count is a little lower than I would prefer, but that's the tradeoff on this style build. Once it gets going drawing into removal is easy. Not sure how I feel about Meren, I might prefer it to just be another Rhino.

Does anyone have thoughts on Endless One vs Hangarback Walker? One is twice as big, the other flies and makes extra fliers. Both technically work for a loop with Meren and clue tokens to quickly jack up exp counters. I also like that if either dies, it's trivial to put them on top, redraw (even 0 to Bob), and have them come back bigger than before.

Land 22
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 19
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile

Artifact 3
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Shriekmaw
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Tidehollow Sculler

[Jain_Mor]

Despite getting some sweet alters done for my deck (pics coming soon), I'm kind of been taking a break. I haven't stopped posting results from Leagues because I haven't been winning, but because I haven't been playing. I've just got really bored of the format on modo now, my local scene is full of boring people and overwatch is a lot more entertaining. Plus, I was heart broken when senpai Jbone noticed me but didn't teach me how to beat miracles (you just posted your list! we wanted the report :P but no worries, life is busy). So yea, hopefully the metagame shifts a bit sometime soon...

@Brael, Why are you running a tutor package for one Range of Eos? You can't Green Sun'z Zenith for it obviously. You're just as likely to draw the Endless one as tutor for it...

Ranger probably works better in Pod. But if you're trying it, I recommend a list that overplays for it so at least you get a feel of what the card does for you quickly in play testing and then cut back on them later. Cut the courser and a Rhino and run 3 of them so you have 3 times the chance of playing one while you're testing, see if you like it and then work on the numbers from there.

Also, if you want to run one of them, I think hangar back is better than endless one, simply because it gives you more options, is more defensive (especially in the skies (a weakness of our deck)) and has synergy with our sacrifice effects. ie lingering souls has been card in legacy in a lot more decks than a vanilla X/X for X has been, but I'm open to being wrong :)

[Brael]

@Brael, Why are you running a tutor package for one Range of Eos? You can't Green Sun'z Zenith for it obviously. You're just as likely to draw the Endless one as tutor for it...

I could go up to 2 Ranger, but it's generally the same logic as why I ran some equipment with 1 SFM. It's a way to double up on the hits. Not being able to GSZ for it is fine, you don't tutor up your GSZ's or your SFM's either. Remember though that I do have a lot of control over my draws with Top and Ranger is a card that could come down late. Right now the role is as a value card (3 for 1 minimum) and a way to double up on some utility, for example getting a late game DRS without having to blow a GSZ on it.

I've never been a fan of overplayng cards to get a feel for them, but 2 could be right.


Also, if you want to run one of them, I think hangar back is better than endless one, simply because it gives you more options, is more defensive (especially in the skies (a weakness of our deck)) and has synergy with our sacrifice effects. ie lingering souls has been card in legacy in a lot more decks than a vanilla X/X for X has been, but I'm open to being wrong :)

That was partially my thought too but with the Tower hands Endless One is much more explosive, I think it plays better with Volraths too.

I thought about including an Intent for the X cards so I could sacrifice, get Volraths, and then replay them hopefully bigger than before, but that has just left me even more confused.

Basically, I think it comes down to StP. Hangarback gets blown out by it much worse.

[Jain_Mor]

Why does hangar back get blown out by Stp more? Because it's slower? Endless one gets blown out by decay or deed or Liliana more :P

[Brael]

Why does hangar back get blown out by Stp more? Because it's slower? Endless one gets blown out by decay or deed or Liliana more :P

Hangarback is XX, it's half the body for the same cost. You're paying extra because of the potent dies trigger. STP completely stops the dies trigger. Hangarback is better for sure against Decay or Deed, there are tradeoffs to be made. Ultimately I'm hedging towards Miracles here which exiles primarily and kills very little. Liliana is a non factor in my opinion. If you're tutoring off of Ranger you have the Ranger body and you have the other thing it tutored. If you're not, it's usually not hard to have another creature on the field. Of course, you can sacrifice the walker and get a bunch of tokens which is a nice upside.

There's a lot of points in either direction here. BG will destroy W will exile.

[Arianrhod]

Split top 4 at Mythic today for $300 and a bye for next month. I'm not going to go into specifics because I'm trying to play this one fairly close to the vest for now and I don't want a lot of attention drawn to it in advance of Eternal Weekend. Suffice to say that it's a new version based around Sneak Attack (which many of you know I've played around with before, but never really focused upon to the point of taking it to an event). I took down Grixis Control, TES, Elves, and Goblins on my way, with a very close 2-1 loss to Food Chain and an ID in there somewhere.

So yeah...not really going to give out a lot of free information about this one, but The Truth is Out There...

[jbone2016]

Split top 4 at Mythic today for $300 and a bye for next month. I'm not going to go into specifics because I'm trying to play this one fairly close to the vest for now and I don't want a lot of attention drawn to it in advance of Eternal Weekend. Suffice to say that it's a new version based around Sneak Attack (which many of you know I've played around with before, but never really focused upon to the point of taking it to an event). I took down Grixis Control, TES, Elves, and Goblins on my way, with a very close 2-1 loss to Food Chain and an ID in there somewhere.

So yeah...not really going to give out a lot of free information about this one, but The Truth is Out There...

Man, you're a tease. I'm probably going to eternal weekend....and maybe SCG Baltimore depending on work stuff.

[Arianrhod]

Man, you're a tease. I'm probably going to eternal weekend....and maybe SCG Baltimore depending on work stuff.

I'll message you on FB. I'm also going to be more open with it once we hit early October. The key is that I'm almost certainly going to be on this new version for Eternal Weekend, and I don't want it to become known in the mainstream before then, because I think it is extremely powerful.

[Echelon]

Jund Sneak Fit..?

Hmm... Probably with a side order of spaghetti monster..?

[jmlima]

Guys, this question might sound daft but, it's well meant... what is the reason to play this over Deadguy Ale? (I will be asking this same question on the 'other side' thread, just trying to understand if I'm missing something in my own comparison of these two decks)

Thanks!

[Bobmans]

Guys, this question might sound daft but, it's well meant... what is the reason to play this over Deadguy Ale? (I will be asking this same question on the 'other side' thread, just trying to understand if I'm missing something in my own comparison of these two decks)

Thanks!
Why would you play anything over anything? What is your thought into putting this question?
If your looking to straight out win, then pick a tier 1 deck.
Picking one of the NicFit variants can be a specific local meta choice.
If your looking for the 'experience' then that is very personal.
What NicFit offers:
The toolbox nature of the deck.
Pernicious Deed.
Cmc > 3 creatures.
Not die to wasteland.
Get to play some actual magic.
It never bores.
Closest thing to Survival of the Fittest (pre Vengevine).
Beating T1 decks makes your opponents cry (they hate loosing to standard/edh cards).
This awesome thread.
Be the coolest kid at your lgs.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

[Brael]

Guys, this question might sound daft but, it's well meant... what is the reason to play this over Deadguy Ale? (I will be asking this same question on the 'other side' thread, just trying to understand if I'm missing something in my own comparison of these two decks)

Thanks!

I'm not overly familiar with Deadguy but my understanding of their deck is that they try to win the game through discard and card advantage. Discard is the core part of their strategy and then they want to pull ahead with Bob, it's a much more focused strat. Nic Fit is more broad, you have a bit of discard, a bit of CA (or a lot in the case of some builds), but how you're winning is through board presence more than anything else.

[Corgimancer]

Anyone have any generic advice for help with the matchup of the Rock (BGW) version vs. Eldrazi? It seems pretty rough as it can be hard to get going especially if they get that turn one chalice for one.

[Jain_Mor]

Why would you play anything over anything? What is your thought into putting this question?
If your looking to straight out win, then pick a tier 1 deck.
Picking one of the NicFit variants can be a specific local meta choice.
If your looking for the 'experience' then that is very personal.
What NicFit offers:
The toolbox nature of the deck.
Pernicious Deed.
Cmc > 3 creatures.
Not die to wasteland.
Get to play some actual magic.
It never bores.
Closest thing to Survival of the Fittest (pre Vengevine).
Beating T1 decks makes your opponents cry (they hate loosing to standard/edh cards).
This awesome thread.
Be the coolest kid at your lgs.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G900F met Tapatalk

Bobmans, that was actually beautiful and made me smile, thanks :D

[fonzdizon]

Anyone have any generic advice for help with the matchup of the Rock (BGW) version vs. Eldrazi? It seems pretty rough as it can be hard to get going especially if they get that turn one chalice for one.

Not sure what your deck-list looks like but. . . . .

If your on the play game 2, blind Therapy for Chalice

Abrupt Decay, Abzan's #1 answer to chalice and 2-3 copies should be enough

Qasali Pridemage is a card worth considering for main deck or side board, if Chalice is that much of a problem in your meta

Although it doesn't maximize the combo, I've found myself in those situations just casting Cabal Therapy in face of Chalice on 1 regardless, then on the next turn Green Sun's Zenith for one and tutor for Veteran Explorer (Which gets around Chalice) and just flashing back anyway just to ramp up, giving yourself a good mana base that should get you to a spell that can get rid of chalice of the next turn (I.E. Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Engineered Explosives)

Gaddock Teeg is not a card that necessarily works well against Eldrazi (If it is in your main-deck, it will most likely be boarded out), but does prevent late game Chalice (late game chalice shouldn't be a worry though if your mana is established) as well as Eldrazi decks that have All is Dust in the main.

And you could just always test the player themselves by simply casting your one drop. It is the responsibility of the chalice player to always announce that the spell will be countered, if a chalice player simply nods and doesn't in someway announce that the spell is countered, the spell is technically resolved and then you do your best to act like you didn't get away with something. It's a bit of controversial trick but if you want to play to win, it's a route worth considering.

Hope this advice was generic enough for you

[cavalrywolfpack]

Anyone have any generic advice for help with the matchup of the Rock (BGW) version vs. Eldrazi? It seems pretty rough as it can be hard to get going especially if they get that turn one chalice for one.
If you survive the early game you can eventually outclass them. I run Rhino Fit so you can just start chipping away at them until their lands will kill them. Tireless Tracker is an all-star here, along with Thragtusk. Just focus on staying alive for the first 5-7 turns, not killing them. Gain life whenever you can and you will win.

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[Echelon]

Tireless Tracker is an all-star here, along with Thragtusk. Just focus on staying alive for the first 5-7 turns, not killing them.

That should be your gameplan in general. Disrupt, stabilize, kill. Answer their first threats, establish a board position and grind them out. We're a control deck, we don't start off as the beatdown.

[Brael]

Did a test run today with my build, opponent picked mono red sneak attack because it did well at the last open. Ended up playing 7 games and I went 6-1, with the 1 being a close loss and the other 6 being very lopsided.

Never drew Ranger but Endless One was fantastic and better than Hangarback would have been, so that's a point in it's favor, another point is that it can dodge the Chalice lockouts. Running mostly Humans the Cavern of Souls was fantastic and it let me somewhat operate through multiple Chalices.

Loved having Sylvan. Just all around good stuff there. Sylvan/Arbor was a pretty neat interaction with both Meren and Volraths.

Once again, the card advantage of this build is unreal. I was able to generate 5 card
s off a Tracker in one game, 4 off a Bob in another, 2 off Courser every time he showed up, the usual Shriekmaw/Witness advantage. On average by the time the games were over I was up 8 or 9 cards on my opponent each game, maybe even more. What I know is that I was able to use all my mana every turn and still have to make decisions on what to do 15 turns into the game, because I just had so many ways to spend mana.

The decks good but I did miss my 4th Top so much that I brought it in during every postboard game. Used the Mentor/Top combo once. It's possibly even stronger here than it is in Miracles because it's yet another must answer threat.

I highly recommend the build if you want to feel like you're playing a blue deck in this format, but don't actually want to play blue.

[Navsi]

I played a few test games with the 4-colour build last night against 4C Delver. Went pretty well overall.

- Stabilizes well, particularly against Goyfs, since Strix is so good.

- Might not want Glen Elendra Archmage, since we can't tutor for it. Might be better off as a Meren.

- Jace is probably worth running the second Island for.

[jbone2016]

Well, there was a scapewish deck in the top 32 (only 4-3) in Legacy Festival on Sunday, but it is worth a look.

Creature (16)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Wood Elves

Sorcery (14)
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift

Instant (2)
2 Abrupt Decay

Artifact (2)
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

Land (23)
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (15)
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
2 Pyroclasm
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

[AtticusBlaqk]

I'm still tuning and playing around with my Abzan Explorer Pod list. I have mixed results but it's a work in progress.

Meren has gone out and come back in along with some SB tweaks. I know that the Garruk is a little cute and is probably better suited as a Sorin, Grim Nemesis, I'm just not to the point of giving up yet.

Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Aven Mindsensor (Considering replacing with Courser of Kruphix)
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Seige Rhino
1 Restoration Angel
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

Non-Creature
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Birthing Pod
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Batterskull

Lands
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest (I have considered increasing my basics count and lowering the fetches)
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard
1 Garruk, Apex Predator
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Containment Priest
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric

Edit*
Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about my proposed changes? I also had Garruk, the Veil Cursed online last week vs Shardless Sultai and found myself wishing that I had a Sidisi Undead Visier (the exploit tutor) that I could find with Garruk. Is that too deep or do you think that another tutor in Sidisi would be useful in this toolbox?

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[Brael]

Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about my proposed changes? I also had Garruk, the Veil Cursed online last week vs Shardless Sultai and found myself wishing that I had a Sidisi Undead Visier (the exploit tutor) that I could find with Garruk. Is that too deep or do you think that another tutor in Sidisi would be useful in this toolbox?


I think you don't have enough interaction with your opponent and cards like Tireless Tracker are not what you want in a Pod list because it doesn't give you enough. For that matter you seem short on a lot of creatures that generate Pod value.

[AtticusBlaqk]

I think you don't have enough interaction with your opponent and cards like Tireless Tracker are not what you want in a Pod list because it doesn't give you enough. For that matter you seem short on a lot of creatures that generate Pod value.

Okay, so I think that I understand that you are saying that it is lacking in general, Tireless Tracker doesn't fit in Pod, and that I lack interaction. Are you suggesting that I cut the Tracker for more interaction. What type of interaction to you mean? General removal, hand disruption, ... I'm sorry for being dense but I see you critique but don't quite understand what you are suggesting to improve the deck.

[Brael]

Okay, so I think that I understand that you are saying that it is lacking in general, Tireless Tracker doesn't fit in Pod, and that I lack interaction. Are you suggesting that I cut the Tracker for more interaction. What type of interaction to you mean? General removal, hand disruption, ... I'm sorry for being dense but I see you critique but don't quite understand what you are suggesting to improve the deck.

You need removal spells. Legacy is a high power format, you can't just let your opponent do as they please while you hope to do the same.

You also need a plan for the games you don't get Pod, which will be many because it's attractive FoW bait.

[AtticusBlaqk]

You need removal spells. Legacy is a high power format, you can't just let your opponent do as they please while you hope to do the same.

You also need a plan for the games you don't get Pod, which will be many because it's attractive FoW bait.

Okay, I think that I understand. You're suggesting that I add something like Maelstrom Pulse, StP, PtE, etc to the main instead of trying to rely on the Deeds alone.


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[Brael]

Okay, I think that I understand. You're suggesting that I add something like Maelstrom Pulse, StP, PtE, etc to the main instead of trying to rely on the Deeds alone.


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Yes. There's nothing wrong with Deed, but it's not a catch all and you just need a certain quantity of removal. Some removal can be creature based such as Murderous Redcap and Qasali Pridemage but you need ways to remove things. I would shoot for at minimum 12 ways to kill various things, and atleast 10 ways to kill creatures.

On top of that, I'm not a fan of your creature selection. Among other things I think you really want Voice of Resurgence in there, and I think you really want ways to jump around the curve. Ranger of Eos into multiple Deathrite Shamans is extremely powerful (in Modern it was the strongest line the deck had until DRS's banning) and another powerful line is Rhino into more Rhinos. I would lower the curve some, Pod doesn't need to go up to 5 and 6. Stopping at 4 with maybe 1 5 (Shriekmaw is great, it's another creature based removal) is all you really need.

Cuts I would recommend are:
Teeg - Stops your GSZ and your Pod, not really what you want here.
SFM - Voice does a better job at doing what SFM does
Tracker - This is a 2 for 1, but what Pod really wants is creatures that provide multiple lives for 1 card.
Reclamation Sage - Pridemage does this better
Liliana - Does nothing when you Pod into it or out of it. You have to Pod into it, and then have another creature die for it to do something. And even when that happens you can't really Pod out.
Mindcensor - Good card, not good in this deck
Sigarda/Thragtusk/Dromoka - Cap yourself to 1 5+ drop. I would go Shriekmaw myself since you're cutting on GSZ's. Another option could be Reveillark.
Intent - I'm just not a fan of the card, others will tell you different.
Dryad Arbor - You're not really running any of the cards that play tricks with this, I would just run another land instead.

[AtticusBlaqk]

Yes. There's nothing wrong with Deed, but it's not a catch all and you just need a certain quantity of removal. Some removal can be creature based such as Murderous Redcap and Qasali Pridemage but you need ways to remove things. I would shoot for at minimum 12 ways to kill various things, and atleast 10 ways to kill creatures.

On top of that, I'm not a fan of your creature selection. Among other things I think you really want Voice of Resurgence in there, and I think you really want ways to jump around the curve. Ranger of Eos into multiple Deathrite Shamans is extremely powerful (in Modern it was the strongest line the deck had until DRS's banning) and another powerful line is Rhino into more Rhinos. I would lower the curve some, Pod doesn't need to go up to 5 and 6. Stopping at 4 with maybe 1 5 (Shriekmaw is great, it's another creature based removal) is all you really need.

Cuts I would recommend are:
Teeg - Stops your GSZ and your Pod, not really what you want here.
SFM - Voice does a better job at doing what SFM does
Tracker - This is a 2 for 1, but what Pod really wants is creatures that provide multiple lives for 1 card.
Reclamation Sage - Pridemage does this better
Liliana - Does nothing when you Pod into it or out of it. You have to Pod into it, and then have another creature die for it to do something. And even when that happens you can't really Pod out.
Mindcensor - Good card, not good in this deck
Sigarda/Thragtusk/Dromoka - Cap yourself to 1 5+ drop. I would go Shriekmaw myself since you're cutting on GSZ's. Another option could be Reveillark.
Intent - I'm just not a fan of the card, others will tell you different.
Dryad Arbor - You're not really running any of the cards that play tricks with this, I would just run another land instead.


I could have saved you a lot of time. Just use this in the future:
#playadifferentdeck


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[apolloscr33d]

I played a few test games with the 4-colour build last night against 4C Delver. Went pretty well overall.

- Stabilizes well, particularly against Goyfs, since Strix is so good.

- Might not want Glen Elendra Archmage, since we can't tutor for it. Might be better off as a Meren.

- Jace is probably worth running the second Island for.

Do you have a list you don't mind sharing?

[apolloscr33d]

Well, there was a scapewish deck in the top 32 (only 4-3) in Legacy Festival on Sunday, but it is worth a look.

Creature (16)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Wood Elves

Sorcery (14)
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Scapeshift

Instant (2)
2 Abrupt Decay

Artifact (2)
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

Land (23)
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard (15)
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
2 Pyroclasm
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Slaughter Games
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Been really interested in a scapeshift version. Would just playing a temur version be out of the question, or do you feel it has to be 4 colors or jund?

[Brael]

Been really interested in a scapeshift version. Would just playing a temur version be out of the question, or do you feel it has to be 4 colors or jund?

If you play RUG you lose out on Cabal Therapy. You're pretty much locked into green and black as colors. Read the primer at the start of the thread, it goes into the Scapeshift lists quite a bit. Never played them myself but I think the 3 color builds (green/black/red) have the most success.


I could have saved you a lot of time. Just use this in the future:
#playadifferentdeck

I also could have saved time by telling you to add a whole bunch of stuff and then not suggesting where the cuts to add those things come from. I could have saved the most time by not answering your questions, you're the one who posted asking for others opinions.

[AtticusBlaqk]

I also could have saved time by telling you to add a whole bunch of stuff and then not suggesting where the cuts to add those things come from. I could have saved the most time by not answering your questions, you're the one who posted asking for others opinions.

Lol, no problem, I just wasn't expecting a total rewrite. It doesn't feel like my deck anymore and that is likely a good thing. You make some good points and I acknowledge them. I think that if we were to stick to playing pod this would be a great direction to get the most value out of it.

I appreciate the input. Next time I'll use a more openly friendly reply. Maybe something like, 'Man, I knew my baby was ugly but you didn't have to go that far'


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[4554551//]

Went 4-0 last night at another event.
(Let me know if nobody cares about these reports and I'll stop)
Tried splashing red for a bit more combo hate, worked fairly well for me. The red cards in the board went in over 3 thoughtseize. I kinda feel like I want one back. Taiga came on over Scrubland (no double white in the deck). So still balancing that area.
Quite happy in my removal package. Again I don't like too much because it takes away from the main plan. Popping a deed a game is usually more than enough, and with tops you end up seeing something.
Deck: Nic Fit.dec
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:20
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

Spells:17
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands:23
2 Bayou
4 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2 Duress
2 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Slaughter Games
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Sneak and show
G1 turn 3 show emrakul-k
G2 a very delicate combination of therapy and surgical that all failed allowed me bait out the forces and brainstorms to zenith for a teag. Jit him up and beat in.
G3 a bit of disruption and turn 5 he shows in emrakul, I show in titania. He swings, I sac lands, make dudes, counter swing.
2-1

Burn
Rhinos. He also did more damage to himself with eidolons than he did me.
2-0

Aggro loam
G1 explorer>tower>titan beats for the win
G2 landed titania, he took out it and token with lily/abrupt. Meren gets her back and go again for win.
2-0

Rhino fit.
Playing against a friend, we collaborate a lot and the decks are similar, but he runs a lot more removal than I do.
G1 I'm applying more pressure then he is, and 1 for 1 removal doesn't help vs etb and instant value cards. Win
G2 I don't see a zenith or a top all game, he closes with primeval titan and rhino loop with tower/stronghold-loss
G3 should have gone to time, but he made a greedy attack, I karakas his meren he left for blocks out of the way to win turn 4 of 5. If it kept going it was anybodies game. - win
2-1

In the end I wanted to bring in some thoughtseize for show and tell which I didn't have, so I'd like to up the side count to 2 Duress and a tz, other than that, very happy with the list.
Please comment, it's very much a work in progress

[square_two]

Sneak and show
G1 turn 3 show emrakul-k
G2 a very delicate combination of therapy and surgical that all failed allowed me bait out the forces and brainstorms to zenith for a teag. Jit him up and beat in.
G3 a bit of disruption and turn 5 he shows in emrakul, I show in titania. He swings, I sac lands, make dudes, counter swing.
2-1


Niiiice. I've always wanted to do this against Sneak and Show.

[Echelon]

So vs. what MUs did you want to run Ruric Thar..? And when did you plan to drop it on the field..?

[4554551//]

So vs. what MUs did you want to run Ruric Thar..? And when did you plan to drop it on the field..?

Original plan was for storm and similar combo decks, where you can disrupt them early, and a few turns later they save up more gas and still go off. So disrupt then race to ruric, they literally can't win.
Additionally he comes in vs miracles, where if he doesn't get countered it's at the very least 6 damage (also legendary, keep karakas up for removal)
And against fair decks. Jund, mirror, hate bears. Big dude, tough to kill, blocks fliers.
Brought him in vs aggro loam. They're not punishing firing that.

Would probably bring him in vs shardless too. Late game ender.

[Echelon]

And you think that 6 discard spells and a Gaddock Teeg is enough to keep you alive until you have the 7 mana you need to GSZ for Ruric Thar vs. ANT/TES..? Or do you plan to pop Veteran Explorers vs. ANT/TES..? We've already established that Slaughter Games, a 4 mana card, is too slow vs. ANT/TES, why would a 6 or 7 mana card be quick enough? I'm really curious about your train of thought here.

Vs. Miracles - 6 damage as best case scenario, big whoop. It's a creature, it isn't something they have any difficulty dealing with.

[4554551//]

And you think that 6 discard spells and a Gaddock Teeg is enough to keep you alive until you have the 7 mana you need to GSZ for Ruric Thar vs. ANT/TES..? Or do you plan to pop Veteran Explorers vs. ANT/TES..? We've already established that Slaughter Games, a 4 mana card, is too slow vs. ANT/TES, why would a 6 or 7 mana card be quick enough? I'm really curious about your train of thought here.

Vs. Miracles - 6 damage as best case scenario, big whoop. It's a creature, it isn't something they have any difficulty dealing with.

Do you actually play magic? Or you just enjoy being a contrarian?
Yes, slaughter games is too slow on it's own, but not if it follows up a disruption or 2 and/or a surgical.
Yes I plan to pop veterans against ant/tes.
Yes I'll ramp to 6/7 for ruric and win rather than trying to drop and army of various dudes that won't kill them before they draw into a win.
Yes going card for card with miracles and dealing them 6 in the process is something I'm happy to do.
I'll also use slaughter games against miracles/elves/nicfit and even decks like sneak and show to follow up other disruption

[Echelon]

Do you actually play magic? Or you just enjoy being a contrarian?
Yes, slaughter games is too slow on it's own, but not if it follows up a disruption or 2 and/or a surgical.
Yes I plan to pop veterans against ant/tes.
Yes I'll ramp to 6/7 for ruric and win rather than trying to drop and army of various dudes that won't kill them before they draw into a win.
Yes going card for card with miracles and dealing them 6 in the process is something I'm happy to do.
I'll also use slaughter games against miracles/elves/nicfit and even decks like sneak and show to follow up other disruption

Oh, this isn't the Pokemon board? Hmm...

Lol I'll stop feeding the troll now. Enjoy popping Veteran Explorers and trying to ramp to 6/7 mana vs. ANT/TES. You crack me up. Let us know how that works out for you.

Don't forget to put on a coat when going outside though - it might be nippy in Magical Christmas Land.

[Brael]

Would probably bring him in vs shardless too. Late game ender.

I wouldn't use him against Shardless. All you need to do to beat them is out value them, that's their biggest weakness. I've literally never lost a round to Shardless and only infrequently one to Jund (very similar decks). Maybe it's my approach, but really I think it's just the fact that this deck plays the attrition game very well, especially when you focus on it. Living the dream for control decks is to draw 2 cards a turn and make land drops. Properly set up we can draw 3 cards a turn, make land drops, and drop 2 creatures per turn. When things get really crazy, I've been known to draw 5 a turn, multiple turns in a row, while still playing cards. It is Shardless BUG's literal worst nightmare. If you draw enough cards that do things, their whole deck falls apart.

That said, I find it pretty difficult to get to 6 to GSZ a Sigarda, trying to cast Ruric or worse, GSZ him in seems less than ideal. Rather than trying to race to get a Ruric Thar down against Storm (which they can in theory bounce) I would rather hit them enough that they don't have the life total to Ad Nauseam. It's not a great plan, but I think it's better than relying on a 6 drop you can't cheat in.


Lol, no problem, I just wasn't expecting a total rewrite. It doesn't feel like my deck anymore and that is likely a good thing. You make some good points and I acknowledge them. I think that if we were to stick to playing pod this would be a great direction to get the most value out of it.

I appreciate the input. Next time I'll use a more openly friendly reply. Maybe something like, 'Man, I knew my baby was ugly but you didn't have to go that far'

Try looking at Pod back in the glory days of Modern. Fuel your mana with Vet/DRS, T2 Pods, and A LOT of creatures that have 2 lives. Then pay the format tax that says you must be able to deal with fast uninteractive decks in order to be successful.

I've done a lot of theory work on Pod and what you need at each spot on the curve. I would aim for more value and less toolboxing, because in this format you won't have room for both. Remember, you have to be able to function without a Pod on the board.

I would aim for a general deck skeleton of:
22 lands
19 spells (including Pod)
20 creatures

And run 61 cards. Lands are simple enough so I'll skip them. In your spells it probably looks like
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Birthing Pod
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Misc tutor (GSZ, Altar of Bone, Chord, Intent, etc)
4 Extra removal/discard (Path, Decay, Golgari Charm, Deed, Thoughtseize, etc)

Creatures probably looks something like
1 - 7
2 - 4
3 - 4
4 - 3
5 - 2

Given that skeleton, coming from someone who played Melira Pod from start to finish in Modern I would play this for my creature suite
4 Vet
2 DRS
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Voice
1 Pridemage
1 Ooze
2 Finks
1 Witness
1 Spike Feeder
1 Rhino
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Resto
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thune

I'm not saying you have to copy my list 100% or even at all, just trying to give some indication of where your choices in card slots are competing if you want to have something functional in Legacy.

[Echelon]

@Brael: Wouldn't Reclamation Sage be preferable over Pridemage in a Pod-list since you can Pod it into a 4-drop after you've resolved the EtB trigger?

[Brael]

@Brael: Wouldn't Reclamation Sage be preferable over Pridemage in a Pod-list since you can Pod it into a 4-drop after you've resolved the EtB trigger?

It depends on your curve. Sage is better in that it sticks around after doing it's thing, but it's worse in that you only have so many 3 slots. Less noticed though is that Pridemage gives exalted, that's actually something worth having at times (and Ranger provides it as well if you make some dorks Hierarchs). If you stack exalted, your medium sized guys are suddenly able to go toe to toe with Anglers and Rhinos. and it makes your battlefield much stronger. Another issue is that, if you're willing to give up the pod Chain you can get Pridemage down preemptively and have him swing a bit, then activate him later, or pod him out if the threat has passed.

For example you can have him on the board threatening to disrupt some Chalices, Blood Moon's, Counterbalances, etc... while you work on getting to 5 for Angel. Once you don't need the threat you can turn him into Feeder and win the game. With Sage it's all reactive.

[4554551//]

We're running with a very different land count and focus.
Gsz into titania is my typical turn 4-5 play. Struggling to Gsz for 6 only happens against decks like grixis delver with wasteland/stifle/daze shenanigans. Perhaps hate bears and such.
There also feels like there is this idea that if something isn't the perfect magical card it's not worth mentioning. Rather than saying this is a card that's better than the stuff you're taking out against a variety of matchups.
Sure, ruric isn't ideal vs shardless. I'd still rather it then spare witnesses that wouldn't return anything over the shamans, the recurring nightmare, half the crud that gets hit by their abrupt and so on. In terms of what goes in and out vs certain decks, having an extra bit of top end is what I'm after. Where others may run sigarda or dromoka, I'm testing ruric

[Jain_Mor]

@Square_two or 45545451515, can you explain to me what exactly happened here?
"G3 a bit of disruption and turn 5 he shows in emrakul, I show in titania. He swings, I sac lands, make dudes, counter swing."

He shows in emrakul, how does he get to attack before you? If he swung how did you get to sac lands to the anihilator trigger and to titantia? Did you just miss type? It make sense if he shows in emrakul and you Titania and then eot you make lots of dudes and attack on your turn before he gets to attack. Which is still really sweet. Apologies if I'm missing something.

@Echelon, lol, I think you try and cultivate that reputation you want for yourself a bit too hard. Also, you sideboard out veterans against storm?

[Whitefaces]

And you think that 6 discard spells and a Gaddock Teeg is enough to keep you alive until you have the 7 mana you need to GSZ for Ruric Thar vs. ANT/TES..? Or do you plan to pop Veteran Explorers vs. ANT/TES..? We've already established that Slaughter Games, a 4 mana card, is too slow vs. ANT/TES, why would a 6 or 7 mana card be quick enough? I'm really curious about your train of thought here.

How do you beat storm?

[Echelon]

@Echelon, lol, I think you try and cultivate that reputation you want for yourself a bit too hard. Also, you sideboard out veterans against storm?

Yes, I'm an asshole for pointing out that a 6/7 mana answer to deal with something as fast as Storm is a stupid idea. How dare I suggest that it wouldn't work!

I board out 3 Explorers out of 4. Giving ANT/TES 2 extra mana isn't something I want to do on a regular basis.


How do you beat storm?

Barely. My record vs. Storm sucks balls. Postboard I've got 7/8 discard, 3 (2 mana) hatebears, 2 Surgical and 3 MD DRS. I suppose 4 GSZ could be counted as hatebear/GY hate. It's still nothing more than a hail Mary though.

[square_two]

@Square_two or 45545451515, can you explain to me what exactly happened here?
"G3 a bit of disruption and turn 5 he shows in emrakul, I show in titania. He swings, I sac lands, make dudes, counter swing."

He shows in emrakul, how does he get to attack before you? If he swung how did you get to sac lands to the anihilator trigger and to titantia? Did you just miss type? It make sense if he shows in emrakul and you Titania and then eot you make lots of dudes and attack on your turn before he gets to attack. Which is still really sweet. Apologies if I'm missing something.


I'm assuming that the S&S player cast Show and Tell, putting in Emrakul while our Nic Fit guy put in Titania, then passed turn. Nic Fit doesn't have to attack, just make sure that he's got plenty of land to sacrifice. Show and Tell player doesn't understand Titania properly, and swings out with Emrakul, which leads to many lands going into the grave and a crackback lethal attack with the reslulting 5/3 army. Definitely a missplay on the Show and Tell player's part. It's nice having a green creature capable of keeping Emrakul at bay that is also just decent in general (unlike...Stingerfling Spider).

[square_two]

Barely. My record vs. Storm sucks balls. Postboard I've got 7/8 discard, 3 (2 mana) hatebears, 2 Surgical and 3 MD DRS. I suppose 4 GSZ could be counted as hatebear/GY hate. It's still nothing more than a hail Mary though.

I think the main thing people don't realize about Storm is that you need both disruption + clock. Heck, I've had both Teeg and Chalice out, and Storm has proceeded to go off - only thing saved me was a sandbagged instant in my hand. Smart Storm players can play through a LOT of hate.

Probably a reason why I've been seeing more Spirit of the Labyrinth in sideboards. Creatures that have built in disruption like her, Teeg, Thalia are the best you can have on board.

Oh yeah, and if you screw up a Cabal Therapy, you are probably screwed :laugh:

[Navsi]

Personally I've found that a Teeg with a Sword of Fire and Ice is quite effective.

[Jain_Mor]

@Square_two, ha yea my bad, sorry. I misrememebred what Titania does. That makes perfect sense and is hilarious.

@Echelon, lol, maybe I misinterpreted you, maybe you aren't trying XD

I have a pretty good 50/50 or better matchup against storm, and I've played it quite a lot online. The way I play it is they can beat you by generating an early mana advantage with rituals before you can interact enough and by comboing you out with a lethal combination of cards (duh).

So I want to therapy as much as I can and interact as much as I can and establish a clock (duh), to do that you need mana. Veteran aids two of those fronts giving you something to turn your cabal therapies into double discard (while being mana efficient at only one mana as opposed to two) and gives you mana so you can interact plenty of times in the first 2-3 crucial turns of the game.

Giving them mana doesnt change the dynamics much, they still need the rituals in hand to up their storm count with or without extra lands.

So I guess I question what you are sacrificing to your therapies against them if you only have 4 Gsun's and one vet (and no sfm?)? It seems preferable to make that aspect of the game plan more consistent so you can therapy them turn 1, land a vet and sac turn 2 and then play more discard or a hatebear or both and pass the turn.

My sideboarding usually looks something like
+2 TS (two are main deck)
+3 surgical
+2 Spirit of the Labia (or some other anti combo bear)
+1 Gaddock teeg
+2 engineered plague

-4 decay
-4 stp
-1 Sigarda
-1 Tusk

Keeping in SFM to sac to therapies, turn bears into large clocks and BSK can be top end and also out race goblin tokens.

[square_two]

Keeping in SFM to sac to therapies, turn bears into large clocks and BSK can be top end and also out race goblin tokens.

I think that SFM builds probably fare better against storm than other non-BUG lists (cause BUG gets some sweet tools) thanks to this. When you can equip Teeg or Spirit of the Labyrinth, it changes the whole dynamic of the game and puts you way ahead. I have way less experience than Jain_Mor here but I feel like I board similarly and have comparable results.

[Echelon]

@Echelon, lol, maybe I misinterpreted you, maybe you aren't trying XD

I don't try, I just do :wink:.

[Jain_Mor]

@Echelon, Those paragraphs on storm sideboarding and their respective questions were directed at you :)

[Echelon]

@Echelon, Those paragraphs on storm sideboarding and their respective questions were directed at you :)



I know. No time now, answering that tomorrow :)

[4554551//]

Sorry, I was unclear on the titania explanation. Yes, he show and tells and lands emrakul while I get titania. He passes turn, I don't do much in mine. In his he swings and I sacrifice lands for titania tokens.
Again, if no one cares about event reports, just say so, I enjoy reading other peoples so assume others do too.
For storm I usually go
-1 titan
-1 thragtusk
-1 meren
-2 tracker
-1 garruk
-1 abrupt
-1 recurring nightmare

+2 Duress (would like a TS in board too here)
+3 surgical
+2 slaughter games
+1 ruric

Trying to therapy/extract their infernal tutor usually. Strip hand best I can, then race for ruric.
What do you guys go for as priority therapy/slaughter games targets?

[Brael]

+2 Duress (would like a TS in board too here)


I actually like a couple Tidehollow Scullers. Against the decks we usually want to disrupt we need a combination of disruption and a clock. Sculler provides both and the decks we're bringing it in against rarely have the removal to kill it. Downside is you can't TS/Duress+Extraction.

[4554551//]

I actually like a couple Tidehollow Scullers. Against the decks we usually want to disrupt we need a combination of disruption and a clock. Sculler provides both and the decks we're bringing it in against rarely have the removal to kill it. Downside is you can't TS/Duress+Extraction.
Some do run abrupt.
Also nice to witness the duress/Ts and go again

Though not only does sculler provide a clock, it goes against chalice.. Interesting

[Brael]

Some do run abrupt.
Also nice to witness the duress/Ts and go again

Though not only does sculler provide a clock, it goes against chalice.. Interesting

I'm heavily biased towards just hitting my opponent in the face with this deck since we have the mana to pay for spells with bodies attached. Moderate disruption, moderate clock/board presence, high CA is the formula I use.

If they Decay the Tidehollow it just turns on Witness and sometimes Glissa to get it back.

[Echelon]

I have a pretty good 50/50 or better matchup against storm, and I've played it quite a lot online. The way I play it is they can beat you by generating an early mana advantage with rituals before you can interact enough and by comboing you out with a lethal combination of cards (duh).

So I want to therapy as much as I can and interact as much as I can and establish a clock (duh), to do that you need mana. Veteran aids two of those fronts giving you something to turn your cabal therapies into double discard (while being mana efficient at only one mana as opposed to two) and gives you mana so you can interact plenty of times in the first 2-3 crucial turns of the game.

Giving them mana doesnt change the dynamics much, they still need the rituals in hand to up their storm count with or without extra lands.

So I guess I question what you are sacrificing to your therapies against them if you only have 4 Gsun's and one vet (and no sfm?)? It seems preferable to make that aspect of the game plan more consistent so you can therapy them turn 1, land a vet and sac turn 2 and then play more discard or a hatebear or both and pass the turn.

My sideboarding usually looks something like
+2 TS (two are main deck)
+3 surgical
+2 Spirit of the Labia (or some other anti combo bear)
+1 Gaddock teeg
+2 engineered plague

-4 decay
-4 stp
-1 Sigarda
-1 Tusk

Keeping in SFM to sac to therapies, turn bears into large clocks and BSK can be top end and also out race goblin tokens.

I'll sacrifice pretty much anything to CT as long as it isn't a hatebear. It could be a DRS if I have a hatebear to replace it, it could be an Eternal Witness, it could be as simple as fetch for Dryad Arbor. Vs. ANT I tend to name Infernal Tutor on the first blind Therapy, vs. TES I tend to name Dark Ritual (since they run a lot more tutors).

I usually manage to stick a first couple of problem cards, but fail to close the game. I tend to whiff on gas vs. ANT/TES (even though I've still got the full set of Rhinos postboard).

[Brael]

I'll sacrifice pretty much anything to CT as long as it isn't a hatebear. It could be a DRS if I have a hatebear to replace it, it could be an Eternal Witness, it could be as simple as fetch for Dryad Arbor. Vs. ANT I tend to name Infernal Tutor on the first blind Therapy, vs. TES I tend to name Dark Ritual (since they run a lot more tutors).

I usually manage to stick a first couple of problem cards, but fail to close the game. I tend to whiff on gas vs. ANT/TES (even though I've still got the full set of Rhinos postboard).

Unless absolutely necessary I would caution against sacrificing either DRS or Arbor to an early CT. You won't beat Storm unless you curve out with some bodies+spells, and giving up your mana production really screws that up.

[Corgimancer]

Here's my list I use online to some moderate success, I enjoy it but can always use tweaking.

lands: 22
4x windswept heaths
3x wooded foothills (should obv be verdants, but don't have. doesn't make TOO much of a dif 95% of the time.)
3x forest
2x swamp
2x plains
1x karakas
1x volrath's stronghold
1x phyrexian tower
1x dryad arbor
1x bayou
2x savannah
1x scrubland

creatures: 16
4x veteran explorer
1x death-rite shaman
1x scavenging ooze
1x eternal witness
1x tireless tracker
1x Nissa, vastwood seer
1x reclamation sage
1x meren
2x siege rhino
1x sigarda
1x thragtusk
1x armada wurm

non-creature spells: 22

4x cabal therapy
4x green sun's zenith
3x abrupt decay
2x swords to plowshares
1x maelstrom pulse (prob needs to be vindicate, but don't have.)
1x painful truths

enchantments:
2x pernicious deed
1x sylvan library

artifacts:
2x diving top

planeswalkers:
1x garruk, primal hunter
1x sorin, lord of innistrad

sideboard:
3x thoughtseize
2x surgical
1x gaddock teeg
1x thrun
1x reclamation sage
2x dryad militant
2x choke
1x StP
1x toxic deluge
1x golgari charm


The cards that aren't standard that I've really been enjoying -

1. Nissa
she's not great at attack or blocking, but she's really great at helping make sure you hit your land drops. I was a firm believer in 6 basics before, but with her in there you need that extra forest or you find yourself without anything to fetch far too often. late game she becomes "draw 2 cards a turn" with her + and her minus, while not ALWAYS relevant, sometimes a 4/4 is good enough to just get there.

Armada Wurm
he's my preferred 6 drop of choice. It may be unnecessary, but I just really enjoy having that one big thing on the top end to go and get to help lock down games. Yes Sigarda is still just better in a LOT of cases, but really 10 trample power for 6 mana is hard to argue against

Garruk, Primal Hunter
This one has given me slightly more mixed results? Sometimes you'll clear each other's board and jump plopping one down and pumping out 3/3s every turn just gets there. I think its awesome for that to be his plus, and in a pinch he's just 5 mana draw X. Sometimes he's worthless when you have nothing on your board to really stop a 3/2 delver from flying overhead at him. I enjoy him/more planeswalkers in general as I think they're our best advantage of playing a 'big mana' deck as they're usually a bit harder to remove.

My last league online I went 3-2 losing a couple close games to misplays (I don't consider myself super familiar with legacy tbh, only just started playing again after a two year break and am having to learn the ins and outs of playing against certain matchups)

The hardest decks to beat (for me at least) have so far been:
combo (Storm is slightly easier than sneak/show)
Mono Red
Eldrazi

I think combo is just always going to be a bad matchup no matter what for us, but the things ive considered to try and even it out a little bit are -
dryad arbor for the gy based ones. its a neat little creature that exiles instants/sorceries and is easily gsz on turn 2. Its not...amazing, but its something. its also OKAY against dredge because it'll get rid of their dread returns, and miracles because sometimes just creature density is better / makes it harder for them to snap stuff back.

Mono-red feels like it shouldn't be a hard matchup at all, but sometimes it is? I think its probably closer to 50:50 and I just haven't played it enough for the variance to even out. What I'm considering for this one as well as eldrazi is something similar - more rhinos. rhino seems like your best card against them by a lot, as it gets around eidolon / any burn they have and immediately gains you 3 life and blocks / trades for at least 2-for-1 usually if they want to get rid of it. 3-4 rhinos may be best. other considerations are either a small stoneforge package/just jitte because that card is also p. hard for them to beat

Eldrazi - I think getting a vindicate here will help, as well as - you guessed it - more rhinos. it blocks everything really well except the smashers, and even those if you double block they can only kill one thing because of the extra behind. They can just be super aggressive sometimes though and it can be hard to stabilize I feel. Toxic deluge - good or bad against them? I feel like losing 5 life or whatever to try and clear off their board doesn't feel worth it, but I could be wrong.

Just some random thoughts / ramblings to go with my decklist, what do you guys think? I'll try and keep a better record of how my games play out the next time I start up a league / next Wednesday.

[Brael]

Mono-red feels like it shouldn't be a hard matchup at all, but sometimes it is? I think its probably closer to 50:50 and I just haven't played it enough for the variance to even out. What I'm considering for this one as well as eldrazi is something similar - more rhinos. rhino seems like your best card against them by a lot, as it gets around eidolon / any burn they have and immediately gains you 3 life and blocks / trades for at least 2-for-1 usually if they want to get rid of it. 3-4 rhinos may be best. other considerations are either a small stoneforge package/just jitte because that card is also p. hard for them to beat

If by mono red you mean burn, it's very poor game 1. If you can SB out your vets for other mana acceleration it gets a little better in games 2 and 3. They can go under you very effectively though and vets just enable them. The biggest constraint Burn has is in getting the mana soon enough to kill you and when you pop a Veteran Explorer you're giving them the means to deal 10 to you right then and there (2x bolt, 1x fireblast) befor your Therapy even resolves, it's very difficult to come back from but at the same time if you don't pop Vets they're going to go under you. This is why it's important to have DRS and Arbor/GSZ as alternative ramp sources.

Vets just become dead cards, even if you don't pop it and intend to use it as a blocker it effectively turns Searing Blaze into a 0 mana deal 3.

The best card you can have against them is Pridemage/Reclamation Sage. Pridemage comes down before Eidolon on the play and kills it without you taking damage, it also beats it in combat on attack. Sage is similar. You can also GSZ for them at X=3 to bump your GSZ up to 4 and dodge the Eidolon trigger. If they don't have an Eidolon they also deal with Sulfuric Vortex, or Ensnaring Bridge if the player misjudges their role. Eidolon is their best card against you, as it typically is against everyone.

Rhinos can help but they're slow, especially because you need to reduce your mana acceleration in the match. It's important to lower your curve significantly. With the loss of Vets you have to lean heavier on dual lands, but duals mean getting wrecked by Price of Progress. So what you're trying to do is operate off of basics in the 3 mana range. If you have Finks they're fantastic. Don't forget that DRS pulls double duty in the match, not just being a mana source but it also gives lifegain. Aggressively trade and then eat any creature that dies. Courser does a lot of work here, it's big enough to block, it gains life, and it's more common to include than Finks is, it also opens up using fetches more easily.

[square_two]

...

Tracker with Daze is hilarious. I'm not sure that's really an interaction for us, per se, but I can just imagine the look on someone's face when you Daze them out of Nic Fit. It'd be like fucking candid camera.

...

Side topic / brewing note: at some point we might want to revisit the old Landfall builds with Lotus Cobra. Cobra and Tireless Tracker seems like a match made in heaven.

...

@Arianrhod, did you every try any brews with Lotus Cobra? Or Daze :cool:

Or have any examples of the old Landfall builds? There is hardly any mention of Cobra on this thread so perhaps the idea is older than I expected.

I was just thinking about some ways to abuse the little guy. Tracker obviously also gets value from land drops as well.

The main issue is what @Bobmans has brought up before:


@ Lotus Cobra. The card is conditional. You will find yourself wanting to get mana out of it, but lacking the landdrops/veteran trigger. Or the other way around. Lacking a solid card to drop out of the mana. I would run Deathrite Shaman as a playset. The card not only helps you ramp, it also solid vs combo and helps you stabilize against fast decks like burn.

But I was thinking that both Cobra and Tracker can make Scapeshift useful before it becomes lethal. With Tracker out, even a meager Scapeshift can provide 4 clues and 4 mana to pop two of them. Seems like that would demand a response and get you back in the game if it resolves. With Cobra out, a Scapeshift for 4 lands becomes 8 available mana, enough to GSZ for Primeval Titan.

Perhaps something could utilize self mill, Loam, and...Splendid Reclamation? Eh that seems way bad on its own.

Well...with Cobra out, and Scapeshift for 4...you get 8 available mana, then play Splendid Reclamation using 4. 4 lands come back into play, so you are back up to 8 available mana with 8 lands in play. Huh.

Even without Cobra, Scapeshift + Reclamation could basically double the number of lands you have on the field. That is peaking my interest a bit more. Do the jund scapeshift lists ever run Loam + stuff like Worm Harvest? A large graveyard could make Splendid Reclamation lethal just as Scapeshift is. Punishing Fire to handle DRS? Seems like it is worth exploring.

[Navsi]

@Arianrhod, did you every try any brews with Lotus Cobra? Or Daze :cool:

Or have any examples of the old Landfall builds? There is hardly any mention of Cobra on this thread so perhaps the idea is older than I expected.

I was just thinking about some ways to abuse the little guy. Tracker obviously also gets value from land drops as well.

The main issue is what @Bobmans has brought up before:



But I was thinking that both Cobra and Tracker can make Scapeshift useful before it becomes lethal. With Tracker out, even a meager Scapeshift can provide 4 clues and 4 mana to pop two of them. Seems like that would demand a response and get you back in the game if it resolves. With Cobra out, a Scapeshift for 4 lands becomes 8 available mana, enough to GSZ for Primeval Titan.

Perhaps something could utilize self mill, Loam, and...Splendid Reclamation? Eh that seems way bad on its own.

Well...with Cobra out, and Scapeshift for 4...you get 8 available mana, then play Splendid Reclamation using 4. 4 lands come back into play, so you are back up to 8 available mana with 8 lands in play. Huh.

Even without Cobra, Scapeshift + Reclamation could basically double the number of lands you have on the field. That is peaking my interest a bit more. Do the jund scapeshift lists ever run Loam + stuff like Worm Harvest? A large graveyard could make Splendid Reclamation lethal just as Scapeshift is. Punishing Fire to handle DRS? Seems like it is worth exploring.

Lands from Scapeshift enter the battlefield tapped, sadly, so Shifting 4 lands for 4 others gives you 4 clues but no mana (unless you have Cobra).

Scapeshift lists don't often run Loam because Dredging away a couple Mountains makes it really hard to combo kill people.