View Full Version : [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
MD.Ghost
11-16-2014, 12:45 PM
Go for it! :cool:
jbone2016
11-16-2014, 12:47 PM
Sadly he lost to u/r delver.
Sadly he lost to u/r delver.
Sudden shock made m'y day in the match opposing Tom Ross to landstill!
jbone2016
11-16-2014, 02:02 PM
HoneyT won again. 10-2-1
ironclad8690
11-16-2014, 03:13 PM
HoneyT won again. 10-2-1
What is honey t's real name so I can see in standings? Also, what version was he playing?
jbone2016
11-16-2014, 03:14 PM
Tim Wilson. Punishing fire
jbone2016
11-16-2014, 03:48 PM
And he wins again over stoneblade. Should be top 32.
HoneyT
11-16-2014, 03:55 PM
Finished 12-2-1 awaiting final standings
Finished 12-2-1 awaiting final standings
Great finish.
You would certainly be top seed between 16 and 32.
Maybe within the top 16.
HoneyT
11-16-2014, 04:39 PM
Finished 24th
Finished 24th
Still very good run ! I wish you could have sneaked in top 8...
Congratulations !!!
Hope we would get a report for your effort.
Arianrhod
11-16-2014, 05:48 PM
Finished 24th
Congratulations -- hope you and James have a safe flight!
Nithkar
11-16-2014, 06:55 PM
Congrats on the finish, HoneyT. As a punishing player, I would love to see your card choices and then insights on the match ups.
Btw, on a first impression, what your thoughts on the nic fit standing against the TC train?
maharis
11-16-2014, 07:47 PM
Great job HoneyT! I might have to pick up some Groves now.
I finished 4-3. This is the list I ran, inspired by Qweerios' list from a few posts back:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Siege Rhino
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Veteran Explorer
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Sylvan Library
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Golgari Charm
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
Rd. 1 vs Painter. Lost die roll. After losing every die roll at EW i was like oh no not again. But my opener was sick: forest, swamp, DRS, GSZ, Decay, 2 things I don't remember. OK, as long as I don't die this turn I'm all set. Opponent plays mountain-Top. Nice. I attack for a few turns with a Kitchen Finks holding SoFI, he is at 2, I GSZ for Siege Rhino, gg. Next game he has a really greedy keep: After going Mountain-Welder, I therapy naming Grindstone, he has 2 Blood Moon, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Sudden Shock, 1 Firebolt. Ooook. I fetch Arbor to strip Moons, get basics online, get another Finks going, he never gets anywhere. 2-0, 1-0
Rd. 2 vs. UR delver. Won die roll. Here's a PBP of the crucial turns of the first game. Criticize as you see fit. I butchered numerous times:
My turn: at 9 life with GSZ + Baneslayer in hand and Vault + 2 duals in play, I draw Therapy. Play it naming Daze. He reveals one, a bolt, and a fetch. His board is 2 Swiftspears. I GSZ for VetEx, flashback. Bolt in response. I am at 6. We get lands. I pass.
His turn: attack with 2 swiftspears. I am at 4. Pass.
My turn: draw GSZ. All righty then. I get a Siege Rhino. Trigger. I am at 7. Pass.
His turn: draw. Pass.
My turn: draw Batterskull. Well, I'm not running my BSA into his FOW + random blue. Attack with Rhino. No blocks. Activate vault. I'm at 11. Pass.
His turn: Brainstorm. 2 Triggers. Swiftspear #3. Probe, 3 triggers. Treasure cruise, 3 triggers. Attack for 11.
I don't remember what happened in game 2. According to my notes, I mull to 5, then circled my first fetch because apparently that's where I lost the game. 0-2, 1-1.
Rd. 3 vs. D&T. Lose die roll. Plains, pass. I fetch basic swamp and therapy naming STP. Some ridiculous hand with Mirran Crusader. Well shit. I pass. He plays Thalia. I have a decent amount of fetches though, so I fetch a forest and GSZ for "0." But guess what I can't find? Yeah, I sideboarded out Arbor against UR because of all the -1 effects. Practice with your deck, kids, because why would you do that? Call judge on myself, lose game. But hey, I get to be on the play! In game 2, I have Golgari Charm early (and left Arbor in my deck), I therapy, see that his hand is mostly x/1s, go after some other stuff, he revokes Sylvan Library, we call a judge again, I nuke his board and win with Siege Rhino. Game 3, I have another early Therapy and hit a containment priest. He never casts much of anything because his lands are 2x Wasteland, Cavern, and Rishadan Port, so when I flashback, cast another therapy, and flash it back his hand is pretty shredded. Also I fetched lots of basics. Finally he draws a plains and Stoneforges for Batterskull. I draw another therapy and beat his brains in with a 6/6 knight. Yes I am lucky. 2-1, 2-1
Rd. 4 vs. BUG delver. Win die roll. Game 1 all I see early is Trop-Delver, then eventually another trop and Goyf. I get a Vet out but it's stifled. I'm not doing terrible, but he ends up in a position when he needs to draw exactly Abrupt Decay and Wasteland to kill my Stoneforge and Arbor for me not to go nuts with a Vault and guess what? Game 2 goes a similar way. It's attritionny, but I have an untapped Arbor + SoFAF + Jitte vs. his two goyfs. Draws Wasteland. Fuck Brainstorm. 0-2, 2-2
Rd. 5 vs. ANT. Lose die roll. Island-preordain. I therapy naming S&T. Brainstorm, LED, 2 Lotus Petal, Infernal Tutor. Well... shit. He plays petals + LED, brainstorms, passes. I flash back Therapy with Arbor naming infernal tutor, but it's hidden. He goes for Ad Nauseum turn 3, goes all the way down to 1, can't win, passes. I untap, GSZ for DRS, pass. He draws, brainstorm, preordain, ponder, scoop. My next 7 is Seize, Seize, Therapy, Stoneforge, Forest, Forest, Vault. Screw you Magic. I keep 6 with 3 duals, green fetch, Therapy, Stoneforge. Better than nothing. He duresses and takes Therapy. I. Draw. Dryad Arbor. Come on. I jam it to flashback naming LED. He reveals another Duress, Therapy, Massacre, Cabal Ritual, Island. OK, could be worse. I think he draws and passes forgetting to play his island, but it doesnt matter as I draw a Bayou. So I fetch something else and pass with my hand full of land. He draws, remembers his first island, therapies stoneforge, passes. Long and short of it, he Duresses a couple turns later, hitting nothing, I draw SFM, getting Batterskull. He Massacres her away but I've got 5 lands in play and win with that. Hooray for interaction. 2-0, 3-2
Rd. 6 vs. Dredge. Lose die roll. He goes first, and I think about saying "At least you're not Manaless Dredge" but that's lame. He plays Mana Confluence-Careful Study. Lol. I therapy naming FoW just in case he's that blue dredge deck but I die next turn. Game 2 I get an active Deathrite and Teeg early and he can't find an answer before I stabilize. Game 3 I keep an insane hand of like Bayou, Forest, Karakas, DRS, Spellbomb, GSZ, something else. He also has an insane hand of Coliseum, Petal, Breakthrough for 1, dumping double Bridge, Therapy, GGT and something else. I calmly exile his graveyard. He untaps, plays another coliseum and goes down to 17 to hardcast Narcomoeba. I eventually win. 2-1, 4-2
Rd. 7 vs. Dredge. Lose die roll. My opponent is deaf but that's fine. I lose game 1 to Dread Returned griselbrand on like turn 2. Game 2 I win when he can't find a dread return target other than GGT for 6 and I just deluge them away and win with DRS. Before game 3 I get a terrible charley horse and have to communicate through writing why I'm dancing around like a moron. Judge gives us time extension. I keep some 7 with a DRS and play it turn 1. At my end step he Firestorms pitching Bridge and GGT killing my DRS. I again explain through writing why his Bridge is gone (state based actions, bro). Call a judge just to confirm, he gives me a look like I give when I forget to de-sideboard. But his dredge is ridiculous, something like 2 ichorid, 2 thug, narcomoeba, therapy. I, uh, die. 1-2, 4-3. As I died, next to me, a player on a straight GB build won to go to 5-2 over UR delver. Hope he made day 2.
Off to the train station. I liked the deck and I think if I wasn't an idiot against UR that I would've won that game and possibly match.
Overperformers:
Siege Rhino. I cast it 6 times in the first 7 games I played and won 5 of those games, and should've won the 6th. It's the real deal. Making GSZ for 4 into Drain Life for 3 matters a lot. This card is the real deal.
Vault. It was me not being a bonehead and my opponent not drawing perfectly away from winning me two games. Creature decks have a real problem beating it.
Sylvan Library. This is the game's best green card. It's a must-counter, must-destroy and clearly the card blue players fear most since it helps us keep up and our cards are much better than theirs.
Underperformers:
Courser. I would've been fine if it were another Knight or another Finks. I cast it once, to flashback therapy and break 3 bridges. Never wanted it off GSZ, even with Library in play. In fact I would almost rather have Knight to get my utility lands and a shuffle effect.
Stoneforge package. I do like this version of the deck, and SFM is very powerful, but I like dropping bombs more than digging up equipment. I don't really like Jitte in this deck either because it's not as easy to get online in a non-Lingering Souls deck. It is a nice way to get Batterskull and can keep people guessing before you ramp into just being able to cast it, but sometimes I would rather have deed than equips.
Missed:
Deed. The percentage points you gain vs. Miracles with SFM package over Deed are lost against Delver decks, says the guy who lost to triple Swiftspear in one game and triple Tarmogoyf in another.
Recurring Nightmare. At the last second I cut my 4th SFM for a Golgari Charm, but thought about Nightmare there as well. Need some way to get extra value out of creatures. I am getting a Stronghold as a knight target.
Didn't miss:
Extra vets. I had to board the one I had out in a couple matchups, but I felt I would either draw and play enough lands to cast Siege Rhino or be able to safely GSZ for 1 at every point during this tournament.
A six-drop. Siege Rhino does so much.
Ambivalence:
I loved the idea of Garruk Relentless but I never got to really show it off. Keeping for now.
Didn't like my sideboard, but I don't know why. Felt Teeg was really vulnerable. Wanted more board wipes. Maybe Thoughtseize isn't what I want to do.
I'm going into hibernation competetively but am looking forward to developing this deck more in the new year. Great showing everyone who went to the GP, VetEx was definitely well represented and I think we gave some players fits.
whatwas
11-16-2014, 09:44 PM
Finished 24th
Congratulations!
uncletiggy
11-16-2014, 09:45 PM
For any one playing funeral charm im curious how its been performing id like to give it a try and not sure if it should go in over the second plow or fourth decay this is my list from memory
22 lands
3 vet
3 drs
2 stoneforge
1 teeg
1 scooze
1 geist
1 witness
3 rhino
1 sigarda
1 tusk
1 grave titan
4 therapy
4 decay
2 plow
1 deluge
3 gsz
2 library
1 top
1 bskull
1 sofi
1 greave
1 reccuring nightmare
Sideboard is still half up in the air but these are set in stone
2 thoughseize
1 elspeth
1 teeg
1 sage
1 deed
1 charm
2 dedicated grave hate ( currently surgicals but eyeing up spell bombs)
Any insight moving forward post nj notable oddities being the titan, geist, and greaves. Im convinced haste is good specifically the geist. There have been several games where gsz> geist has been a lightning bolt gg. Im also thinking one explorer might be better as another deathrite.
MrIggins
11-16-2014, 11:02 PM
Thanks Kevin for posting my standings for as long as you were live. I ended up losing my win-and-in to an Emrakul deck. Finished 6-3 with Scape, beat Burn, Delver, Merfolk, lost to Sneak, beat Burn, lost to Delver, beat MUD-post, beat Miracles, lost to Omni. Had a good time and congratulations to Tim on his great finish. It was fun meeting the many Sourcers there, and seeing the light leave my burn opponents' eyes as I cast Baloths and Thragtusks to ruin their days. Might post a report but there wasn't that much interesting that happened. Matches that I lost weren't especially close except for round 5, and neither were the wins.
Thanks Kevin for posting my standings for as long as you were live. I ended up losing my win-and-in to an Emrakul deck. Finished 6-3 with Scape, beat Burn, Delver, Merfolk, lost to Sneak, beat Burn, lost to Delver, beat MUD-post, beat Miracles, lost to Omni. Had a good time and congratulations to Tim on his great finish. It was fun meeting the many Sourcers there, and seeing the light leave my burn opponents' eyes as I cast Baloths and Thragtusks to ruin their days. Might post a report but there wasn't that much interesting that happened. Matches that I lost weren't especially close except for round 5, and neither were the wins.
I hate losing to S&T...
Nice win against MUD. This MU feels like a nightmare for me...
How rewarding was your sideboarding strategy ? If I remember well you were on 3 pyroclasm, right ?
Did it shine against delver, pyromancer, burn & merfolk decks ?
I did lose my win & in, last year, against Omni (like you). This matchup cannot be helped...I feel, it is so one sided.
Anyway, gratz for your performance.
Scapeshift sounds like a real contender in a GP if only it reaches day 2.
MrIggins
11-17-2014, 08:38 AM
Bringing in the multiples of Pyroclasm was good against my rd 1 Burn opponent, and won me game 2 of my lost match vs Delver. I was pretty happy with them for those matches. It did help vs Merfolk as well, though that match was won mostly by Pernicious Deed.
Going forward I might be going back to 1 Pyroclasm and playing the 3rd and 4th Thoughtseize in the sideboard to try helping the combo games. A consequence of using those sideboard slots on Pyroclasms was that there were no longer enough cards to bring in, so I was forced to leave in Thragtusk and Baloths against Show and Tell, which obviously are awful there. Not sure.
Bringing in the multiples of Pyroclasm was good against my rd 1 Burn opponent, and won me game 2 of my lost match vs Delver. I was pretty happy with them for those matches. It did help vs Merfolk as well, though that match was won mostly by Pernicious Deed.
Going forward I might be going back to 1 Pyroclasm and playing the 3rd and 4th Thoughtseize in the sideboard to try helping the combo games. A consequence of using those sideboard slots on Pyroclasms was that there were no longer enough cards to bring in, so I was forced to leave in Thragtusk and Baloths against Show and Tell, which obviously are awful there. Not sure.
1 Hunt, 2 Baloth & 1 Thrag ?
How were the baloths ? Would you keep it or did you ever wish they were another Hunt & Thrag ?
It is always hard to tune the perfect SB. Often you end up overcommiting going one way and get punished because of that.
It makes your life easier against some MU and miserable against other.
You make a good call. Pyro, I guess, was definitely the way to go.
The last time I played vs Omni I got fu..leylined both games.
G1 -> Yes m'dam He has his lone copy in his starting hand
G2 -> Mull to 6 & say goodbye...
@Arian:
It seems you punted your last game.
Anyway could we get your feedbacks on Dualcaster ?
Has he found its place in Scape ? Did he ever shine during your 6 rounds ?
Arianrhod
11-17-2014, 09:37 AM
How -did- you beat MUD? Just ramp up quick and go off because you die to lodestones?
I agree with Ralf -- from what I saw looking around (and from Tim's experiences), we would have been very, very happy to make Day 2.
So here's what I think happened:
I predicted a combo winter upcoming as a response to the blue decks engaging in Battleship. I also gambled that this wouldn't happen until after the GP, although I acknowledged a possibility of it happening earlier and nic fit just getting screwed.
The floor at the GP was fairly heavily combo represented. I would guess something like 10% random, 25% combo (all varieties), 20% delver, 15% aggro, 20% control (miracles & keeper), 5% Death and Taxes, 5% Burn. I had been expecting something like 10-12% combo with the remaining percentage being dumped back into delver. Keep in mind, this is judged mostly off of my experiences and those of the people whom I talked to throughout the weekend, coupled with what I saw from walking around. In a room with 4000 people playing legacy, it's very hard to get the whole picture -- that's my best guess.
---------
Sit down for round 2 (had a bye round 1). Delver decks to the right of me, Miracles to the left of me. I get the asshole playing ANT.
I Thoughtseize him game 1, he Brainstorms in response and untaps to kill me.
I Cabal Therapy him game 2, whiff (named Dark Ritual, he has Cabals, Lotus Peal, and an LED). I don't have the green source for the Zenith in my hand to get the Explorer to flashback + present Slaughter Games next turn. He goes off.
Sit down for round 3.
My opponent goes t1 Mountain -> Grindstone. Okay, no secrets here. I play a fetch and ship. He plays Great Furnace -> Painter's Servant. K. I play a basic, fetch for another basic, and mainphase Decay on the Painter because I don't want to give him the opportunity to REB my lands. He shrugs, plays a land and a Goblin Welder.
Now, my hand is a couple of lands, another Decay, and a Deed. My thought is, that I'm protected thanks to the Decay. He'll weld his Furnace into Painter and try to kill me, then I Decay his Painter, mill a couple of cards, then go land, Deed, break for 1 and leave him with like a solitary Mountain in play. He instead activates Grindstone, holds priority, Welds the Grindstone into the Painter. I think it through for a moment, realize that I never get priority before I have 0 cards in my library, and scoop.
Never saw that trick before, good to remember.
The next game I have a basic, a couple of duals, a Decay, a Deed, and some other good shit. He goes City of Traitors, pitch Guide, Blood Moon. Untap, Painter's Servant + Grindstone off of a Lotus Petal. I don't draw another basic for my Decay and I die.
Magic is fun.
I sit down for round 4. My opponent leads with a Gemstone Mine, and I'm seriously on the verge of conceding and signing the match slip on the spot.
Instead of doing broken things, though, my opponent elects to not play magic and starts dredging. He has like a turn 3 kill off of 4x ichorids. A Breakthrough happened on turn 2, but he ended up getting slightly screwed on his dredgers and ran out after 2 draws. Didn't matter.
Game 2 was probably the most fun I had all weekend. I'm at 5 lands with just a Wish in hand and a Top in play. He has Elesh Norn + 3 zombies and I'm at 6. He also has Ichorids in his graveyard -- nothing I can do or wish for short of killing him will get there. I put a Green Sun on top of my deck, and GSZ@1, which gets me Explorer (dies to elesh), gets 2 lands. This leaves me with 7 lands in play, but only 5 mana untapped. I think for a moment, and see no other option other than to blind draw off of Top hoping for a land or a Vet. I hit the Vet, cast it, get my last two basics, Wish, Scapeshift, kill you.
Woof.
Game 3 is much more academic. I disrupt him with some early discard to keep him unable to start going off, which puts him on the "draw up to 8 cards then discard plan." I have a super ramp heavy hand and hit the requisite land count on like turn 4. A Top+spin -> Wish -> Shift later and I'm actually taking a match slip up for once.
I sit down for round 5, and am rewarded with an opponent who goes basic Plains -> go.
Praise jeebus.
This match is a ritual sacrifice. I sweep him multiple times each game, and coupled with my spot removal, I was never in danger of even coming close to losing. Unfortunately, though, this gave me a little false confidence. 3-2, feeling like I can turn it around and maybe lucksac my way into day 2 (at which point breakers reset and who cares around day 1).
I sit down for round 6. My opponent goes basic Plains, go.
Holy shit.
I win game 1 hilariously convincingly, with multiple removal spells in hand at the end of the game.
Game two I keep a very greedy hand on the draw, where my only mana source is a Bayou. I have Thoughtseize, Therapy, Deed, Sakura-Tribe, Decay, Wish -- aka literally everything I could want except a Zenith.
He leads with Mom. I obviously rip a Taiga for my turn, but lead Bayou -> Thoughtseize. He has a Wasteland, along with a Stoneforge, Serra, and a couple other things. He doesn't Waste me, and plays a dude instead.
I'm not sure exactly what I did here, but whatever it was, it was the wrong line. I should have Wish->Massacred him to clear out his 2 creatures. Instead I did....something else. A pair of Wastelands and a Batterskull later, we're going to game 3.
Game 3 I mull into the old Forests + Mountains hand. I end up Wishing for a boarded-out Zenith because I had 2x discard in hand and needed a black source, however, I misplayed with the Zenith. He had just a Thalia out for a while but wasn't doing anything else, which prompted me to think that he had at least one Swords in his hand. My opponent was savvy about when he was Swordsing vs when he was killing the Explorer, and I knew that he knew that I was short black, and the Explorer would get refugged immediately. As a result, I elected to hold Zenith for Sakura.
The problem is that I was out-thinking myself. Turned out that he had multiple Flickerwisps in hand and 0 Swords (had actually boarded 2 copies out). By the time I got Sakura off, he'd gotten a Vial ticked up to 3 and started using Flickerwisps to Stone Rain my black source each turn. This inhibited me long enough that he was able to finish me off while I was still stumbling.
Dead at 3-3.
-----------
Two of the games I lost were basically my fault -- if I'd just Decayed the Grindstone like I knew I should've vs Painter, I would have undoubtedly won game 1, and then at least would have had a shot at that match. If I'd mulled // not been overconfident g2 vs DnT #2, I would've likely won that game (and thus match) and been 4-2 and still live.
The bigger problem is that I played against exactly 0 Delvers and 0 Tundras -- both of which I was firmly prepared for. I can accept losing to a combo deck at a GP. People can and will play anything. But 3 combo decks in the first 3 rounds is pretty unfortunate -- and I can't even use the "L" word (luck), because I played like an ape in the games where I DID have a chance.
I dunno. Pretty disappointed in myself.
More thoughts later.
Arianrhod
11-17-2014, 09:43 AM
1 Hunt, 2 Baloth & 1 Thrag ?
How were the baloths ? Would you keep it or did you ever wish they were another Hunt & Thrag ?
It is always hard to tune the perfect SB. Often you end up overcommiting going one way and get punished because of that.
It makes your life easier against some MU and miserable against other.
You make a good call. Pyro, I guess, was definitely the way to go.
The last time I played vs Omni I got fu..leylined both games.
G1 -> Yes m'dam He has his lone copy in his starting hand
G2 -> Mull to 6 & say goodbye...
@Arian:
It seems you punted your last game.
Anyway could we get your feedbacks on Dualcaster ?
Has he found its place in Scape ? Did he ever shine during your 6 rounds ?
Dualcaster was useless for me, but that's mostly matchup dependent // hand dependent.
Two people from my area were playing my exact 76, and Dualcaster was phenomenal for both of them -- one guy beat Storm round 1 with help from DCM via copying the guy's own Cabal Therapy / Duress effects. The other was able to beat Reanimator via Bolt, hold priority, DCM, copy Bolt, swing. This is not counting generic Brainstorm copies, Force copies, and other common uses.
Basically Scapewish is splitting into two subvariants, I think -- a Scape Control list with spot removal + DCMs, and a more midrange Scape Monsters list with Huntmasters, Thragtusks, etc. The midrange list may want a single copy of DCM, MAYBE two, but it's definitely not as great for that list as it is for the control list.
My opponent goes t1 Mountain -> Grindstone. Okay, no secrets here. I play a fetch and ship. He plays Great Furnace -> Painter's Servant. K. I play a basic, fetch for another basic, and mainphase Decay on the Painter because I don't want to give him the opportunity to REB my lands. He shrugs, plays a land and a Goblin Welder.
Now, my hand is a couple of lands, another Decay, and a Deed. My thought is, that I'm protected thanks to the Decay. He'll weld his Furnace into Painter and try to kill me, then I Decay his Painter, mill a couple of cards, then go land, Deed, break for 1 and leave him with like a solitary Mountain in play. He instead activates Grindstone, holds priority, Welds the Grindstone into the Painter. I think it through for a moment, realize that I never get priority before I have 0 cards in my library, and scoop.
Never saw that trick before, good to remember.
Unless, I do miss something here but you do have priority:
Stack 1 = Grindstone ability
Stack 2 = Weld grindstone into the Painter
Resolve:
2- Painter in play
At this very moment, grindstone ability is still on the stack and you can sneak in a juicy AD on Painter.
Arianrhod
11-17-2014, 10:14 AM
Unless, I do miss something here but you do have priority:
Stack 1 = Grindstone ability
Stack 2 = Weld grindstone into the Painter
Resolve:
2- Painter in play
At this very moment, grindstone ability is still on the stack and you can sneak in a juicy AD on Painter.
Confirmed.
Well, shitcakes.
I still wasn't winning game 2 regardless, and who knows about game 3. I'm just going to assume that I would've also lost game 3 and move on with my life, newly informed.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpnj14/d2meta
HoneyT seems to be the one and only one to have sneaked in day 2.
I guess his list was inventoried as JUND midrange.
HoneyT
11-17-2014, 11:00 AM
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpnj14/d2meta
HoneyT seems to be the one and only one to have sneaked in day 2.
I guess his list was inventoried as JUND midrange.
As opposed to the 8 other Jund decks that made it, which is definitely also (and more of) a midrange deck. Silly wizards.
I'm on my phone right now. Flying back to Omaha today. Hopefully I get a chance to type up a report sometime tomorrow so be on the look out for that.
Arianrhod
11-17-2014, 11:27 AM
Blue-Red Delver 20% 89
Jeskai Stoneblade 10% 44
Death and Taxes 7% 31
Jeskai Miracles 6% 25
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 5% 21
Sultai Delver 5% 21
Other 48% 215
Grumble grumble matchups complain complain.
On a more serious note, that is SIGNIFICANTLY less Miracles than I expected.
God, WotC's naming conventions is even worse than SCG's. LOCUS RAMP? REALLY?
Let's collapse this a bit.
Ramp:
MUD 6
Jund Midrange 1 (Punishing Nic Fit)
Locus Ramp 1 (12post)
Aggro:
Merfolk 8
Affinity 5
Maverick 2
Punishing Maverick 2
Goblins 2
White-Black Stoneblade 2
Slivers 1
Four-Color Loam 1
Dark Maverick 1
Abzan 1
Abzan Maverick 1
Black-Green Rock 1
Tempo:
Blue-Red Delver 89
Sultai Delver 21
Jeskai Delver 17
Temur Delver 10 (how the mighty have fallen)
Sultai Tempo 1 (???)
Grixis Tempo 1
Blue-Green Delver 1
Blue-Red Pyromancer 1
Control:
Jeskai Stoneblade 44
Jeskai Miracles 25
Esper Deathblade 9
Jund 8
Tezzeret 5
Shardless Sultai 3
White-Blue Stoneblade 3
Blue-Red Landstill 2
Deathblade 1 (not sure why this is in a different grouping)
Shardless Sultai 1
White-Blue Control 1 (uw landstill?)
Stoneforge Control 1
Blue-Red Control 1
Bant Stoneblade 1
Mardu Deathblade 1
Combo:
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 21
Sneak and Show 19
Elves 17
Reanimator 16
Omni-Tell 14
Burn 11
Dredge 6
Infect 5
Blue-Red Burn 3
Dark Depths 2 (assuming BG turbo depths with Into the Norths, Crop Rots, etc)
Show and Tell 2 (not sure what this is)
White-Red Painter 1
Manaless Dredge 1
Sneak Attack 1
Food Chain 1
High Tide 1
Charbelcher 1 (always that one asshole)
Ad Nauseam Tendrils 1 (not sure why this is on the list twice. maybe it's SI or something like?)
Prison:
Death and Taxes 31
Lands 8
Enchantress 1
Smallpox 1
Some of these are a little arbitrary but I'm doing the best I can without breaking it up into a million subcategories.
Compacted further:
8 Ramp
27 Aggro
141 Tempo
106 Control
123 Combo
41 Prison (mostly DnT)
446 decks.
1.8% ramp
6.1% aggro
31.6% tempo
23.8% control
27.6% combo
9.2% prison
Tempo > combo > control > prison (dnt) > aggro > ramp in terms of likelihood of playing vs.
I need to assimilate this before I give further thoughts.
MD.Ghost
11-17-2014, 12:45 PM
Thanks for your report kevin, as you mentioned, sometimes magic is a bitch...3 combo decks in a row...
I remember GP Paris, my record was 4:0 with Punishing Fit and than i faced 3 combo decks and also lost any luck...kicked out of the tournament.
@HoneyT:
Can we get a list of your powerful performance? :cool:
@Maharis.
Thanks for the detailed report.
I'll give you more details on my thoughts ASAP.
On a more general note, playing Abzan Fit is unforgiving.
I learnt it the hard way, so do you...
Playing tight and safe against agressive strategy & playing aggressive against more controlish strategy are mandatory.
We need to practise more. Settle on a version of the deck (whatever it is) and just play it against various decks.
I lost to miracle G1 and I won vs Miracle G6. Guess what ? I learnt from my previous errors.
Arianrhod
11-17-2014, 02:33 PM
Okay. Time for some conclusions.
Observation 1:
Force of Will is crucial in a legacy Grand Prix. People are hipsters, rogues and morons. They can and will play literally anything because some percentage of them find it funny to be landmines to other people without any consideration for their own records, and/or "just want to have fun." Good for them, but I'm not interested in losing to that class of person. Multiple people in my extended friend group played vs Pox, Cheerios (yes, really), Enchantress, Dream Halls, etc. Playing in a Grand Prix without Force of Will is a massive gamble, plain and simple. Sometimes we'll get lucky and dodge the random bullshit, but then there's the rest of the time. Tim played every single round on Saturday, with no byes, and worked his way through. One of my friends had 2 byes and squandered them, going 2-5 before finally giving up. Who knows what can happen.
Observation 2:
Have a strong, proactive plan. This is something that bug Nic Fits tend to have issues with. BUG Fits don't really have a cohesive plan overall. They just play a lot of value, draw a ton of cards, and hope that some combination of them eventually gets there. Note that I'm fully aware that my own bug build has this same problem. Scapewish has long been one of the most successful variants because it has a strong, linear plan. Sure, it backs that up with a bunch of other plans which feed into the main trunk, but if I'm up against something like Dredge, for example, I still have a plan. Interact where I can, otherwise ramp up and scapeshift as quickly as humanly possible. BUG NEEDS to find something in this model to be successful, and it can't be Pod because Pod needs to run too many cards that don't interact.
Observation 3:
Burn needs to be solved. One of the reasons that I actively stayed away from BUG while considering decks for the GP was because its burn matchup is questionable, much more so than other variants of Nic Fit. Some number of Obstinate Baloths is a start. That card is a fucking house. Beyond that, I dunno. It could be that adding a linear plan to the deck might also help a significant amount.
More later.
I should note that I'm referring specifically to GPs, not to local big legacy events//40 duals//SCGs//etc.
bryanzoll
11-17-2014, 03:54 PM
I should note that I'm referring specifically to GPs, not to local big legacy events//40 duals//SCGs//etc.
Yeah, but wouldn't you expect to run into the "I'm just here to have fun and play a rogue deck" type of player a smaller more regional tournaments?
jbone2016
11-17-2014, 04:13 PM
So I faced punishing maverick (win), sneak-show (win), u/r delver (win), lands (loss), elves (loss), u/r delver (win), dredge (win), turbolands (loss). Rhino/forge fit. I'll put a list when I'm by a real computer. The deck felt really strong. Only one of my losses was in 2 games.
Okay. Time for some conclusions.
Observation 2:
Have a strong, proactive plan. This is something that bug Nic Fits tend to have issues with. BUG Fits don't really have a cohesive plan overall. They just play a lot of value, draw a ton of cards, and hope that some combination of them eventually gets there. Note that I'm fully aware that my own bug build has this same problem. Scapewish has long been one of the most successful variants because it has a strong, linear plan. Sure, it backs that up with a bunch of other plans which feed into the main trunk, but if I'm up against something like Dredge, for example, I still have a plan. Interact where I can, otherwise ramp up and scapeshift as quickly as humanly possible. BUG NEEDS to find something in this model to be successful, and it can't be Pod because Pod needs to run too many cards that don't interact.
Observation 3:
Burn needs to be solved. One of the reasons that I actively stayed away from BUG while considering decks for the GP was because its burn matchup is questionable, much more so than other variants of Nic Fit. Some number of Obstinate Baloths is a start. That card is a fucking house. Beyond that, I dunno. It could be that adding a linear plan to the deck might also help a significant amount.
More later.
I should note that I'm referring specifically to GPs, not to local big legacy events//40 duals//SCGs//etc.
Interesting that you find Burn to be difficult, as I feel as though it is nearly a bye for BUG. They can't beat Glen Elendra, they struggle with a Jace in play brainstorming and fatesealing them, Baleful Strix, Abrupt Decay and Deed screw up their creature plan, we are immune to Price of Progress, and they don't interact. We also have FOW for fireblast.
The BUG deck basically just locks the opponent out with some combination of fast Jace, Glen Elendra, notion thief, and a ton of removal and discard, and then closes the game with a finisher of choice. I've never felt like I had an issue closing out games. Many decks in the format can't beat those cards, and the rest can't beat Pernicious Deed. With brainstorm, ponder, and DTT, you never have trouble finding the finisher when you actually need it, and I don't think I've ever lost a game once a Sphinx trigger resolved. I find that a decent hand will rarely lose, and the biggest issue with the deck is the inconsistency inherent in running a deck with 22 lands. I'm not sure if the deck is better than scapeshift/junk vs the decks it's favored against, but having an even or favored matchup vs combo is worth that tradeoff for me.
maharis
11-17-2014, 04:26 PM
@Maharis.
Thanks for the detailed report.
I'll give you more details on my thoughts ASAP.
On a more general note, playing Abzan Fit is unforgiving.
I learnt it the hard way, so do you...
Playing tight and safe against agressive strategy & playing aggressive against more controlish strategy are mandatory.
We need to practise more. Settle on a version of the deck (whatever it is) and just play it against various decks.
I lost to miracle G1 and I won vs Miracle G6. Guess what ? I learnt from my previous errors.
Yes. I said to myself "He'd have to draw perfectly to kill me from 11." Famous last words!
Arianrhod, in a 4,000+ person tournament there's no way to be prepared for everything. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I also am not surprised at the non-penetration of Miracles day 2. If you think about it they're going to rack up the draws and not get to 21 points, plus it's a hard deck to play in that environment. I have a friend who day 2'd with Miracles but said after a couple rounds he would've rather played something else just for a little more excitement.
firebadmattgood
11-17-2014, 07:32 PM
Sit down for round 3.
My opponent goes t1 Mountain -> Grindstone. Okay, no secrets here. I play a fetch and ship. He plays Great Furnace -> Painter's Servant. K. I play a basic, fetch for another basic, and mainphase Decay on the Painter because I don't want to give him the opportunity to REB my lands. He shrugs, plays a land and a Goblin Welder.
Now, my hand is a couple of lands, another Decay, and a Deed. My thought is, that I'm protected thanks to the Decay. He'll weld his Furnace into Painter and try to kill me, then I Decay his Painter, mill a couple of cards, then go land, Deed, break for 1 and leave him with like a solitary Mountain in play. He instead activates Grindstone, holds priority, Welds the Grindstone into the Painter. I think it through for a moment, realize that I never get priority before I have 0 cards in my library, and scoop.
Never saw that trick before, good to remember.
How do you not get priority here? When welder's ability resolves, painter is in play and grindstone's on the stack, so you just decay the painter then untap and crack deed.
Qweerios
11-18-2014, 02:04 AM
Sorry guys I choked on playing Nic Fit at the GP. I decided to play a deck with FoW and Brainstorm instead and barely missed day2. I was planning at least on playing it during the super Sunday event (476 players I think?) but I got cold feet again and missed top8 by a hair with a Delver deck.
I still think Junk Nic Fit is the best version but I find it extremely difficult to justify a non-blue deck as a competitive choice, especially with TC in the format. Perhaps a BUG Nic Fit deck would be the best in the end. This is what I have in mind:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Sagu Mauler
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Treasure Cruise
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
I could see some combination of Envelop, Dimir Charm, Toxic Deluge, Thoughtseize, Surgical Extraction, Liliana Thrun, etc. in the sideboard. I might play this tomorrow at a weekly tournament and see how it goes. Any suggestions for SB cards I could be obviously omitting?
Sorry guys I choked on playing Nic Fit at the GP. I decided to play a deck with FoW and Brainstorm instead and barely missed day2. I was planning at least on playing it during the super Sunday event (476 players I think?) but I got cold feet again and missed top8 by a hair with a Delver deck.
Ah ! Traître !!!
Concerning your BUG Fit, here are a couple of suggestions:
I went that way. Green is not a primary color in this deck. More likely a juicy splash, just to help things going (ramping & life gain for certain MU)
1) With library manipulation you can afford to shave all save 0-1 GSZ.
2) Cut DRS & Reclamation Sage. You want to go bigger just because you have access to brainstorm and you can fix slow hands. Play a Frost Titan, instead. This is the guy closing parties. Because he is such a pain in the ass for any opponent. He messes up with Batterskull, huge monsters, lands (or whatever annoying thing you might have to cope with) that are not taken care by pernicious deed & his clock is good.
3) Play 1 or 2 Glen Elendra Archmage. She is that good. She brings what is lacking to BUG Fit: a reliable way to either resolve a sweeper or to ride a beast (Frost Titan) to victory. Not to mention that against combo, if you manage to resolve her keeping an untapped blue. Aie...
4) Play Baleful Strix. Consider him as one of your life gainer creature, pitchable to FOW, fodder to cabal therapy and that replaces itself. Not to mention that he also helps growing Ooze big sometimes.
5) I would also play a mix between DTT & TC. Actually, I have found that DTT is better for this deck. 2/1 seems to be the perfect split.
Anyway, here is the list, I'm playing from time to time (4 times last week to 3-1) on cockatrice:
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Frost Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Dig Through Time
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Treasure Cruise
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Ponder
1 Green Sun Zenith
Sideboard:
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Plague
Edit: Hope you like long to very long games...That's the price to pay for playing such a control deck.
MD.Ghost
11-18-2014, 08:49 AM
As i mentioned, i discussed BUG Fit with Arianhood before the GP. I don't like Maindeck Force of Will, but i understand the reason behind it. Especially in a big tournament, everything can happen and you don't want to lose so easy against Combo Decks with a blue Deck. Afterall, Nic Fit can even hardcast Force of Will, so maybe it is right. The bad (besides Sneak Show) combo matchup Game 1 is the biggest issue i have with BUG Pod - i feel, that even an old Punishing Fire build have more weapons against combo...
Speak about different builds:
// Deck: BUG Version 1 (60)
// Lands
I used my current duals, so it can be different like +1 Usea -1 Island etc. I like to have 1 or 2 specific land slots. I hate to lose against Sneak Show, so Karakas (with all the legend creatures) was an easy slot, Stronghold wins grindy games and without witness and lesser decks with Deathrites, this land is not so bad - can also be the other tower as well ;)
3 Island
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
// Creatures
As Ralf said: Strix is a real deal in BUG! Wincons: You can use any 6drop, most like Sphinx but i can also see 1 Frost Titan etc. It is a slot that should win a game on its own. Thrun stops most stuff and with Karakas he can also dodge Terminus. Titania, Protector of Argoth is a test, but if Nic Fit finds a shell it would be BUG with enough Fetches.
Rest is blue Utility: Venser can answer everthing and i like another answer against Show&Tell, Clique also improves Combo/Control matchups and both can be nasty with Karakas.
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Veteran Explorer
// Spells
Playset Decay - current meta needs it - Double Deed because with enough Cantrips and Decay two should be ok. More Win cons: Batterskull is good in every control shell and it is also a nice support for the "weak" blue Creatures or Explorer. I like Garruk as a Combatwalker, easy to cast and with usefull abilities. Both can be Jace if needed. Playset Therapy + Force for some protection. Rest is blue Cantrip-Stuff.
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Dig Through Time
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard is flexible, just some spells against different Matchups. Finks can be Baloth (but it is slower) etc. Nothing fix here, besides Fluster and Archmage.
I will post a different version (with another playstyle) later.
I'd recommend the third deed. My win percentage against Delver and Death and Taxes increased dramatically when I went from two to three, and there are few decks where the card is dead. I find that Deed is my plan A vs those decks and Abrupt Decay is my plan B, thus the 3/2 split. I also like Notion Thief better than Venser (I have Venser in the side) because he makes blue combo decks unable to win, while also randomly blowing out fair blue decks, and he doesn't require a colorless land to shine. Glen Elendra is also great vs those decks, and additionally hoses Miracles, every combo deck, and any deck that's trying to Cruise.
Miracles is one of the rougher matches for this deck that can't be fixed with some sideboard bullets, so I'd love to hear if anyone has suggestions that I'm not already running. I got a test round in last night, and managed to win in 3 although it took almost two hours. In the final game we both had Jaces ticking back and forth around 11 and 12 and I finally just ran him out of answers. This is my sideboard plan against them for BUG nic fit:
-1 Deed
-1 Therapy
-4 Explorer
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Thragtusk
I think I'd feel better about the matchup if I had a beefy non-blue planeswalker like Garruk Relentless to bring in as well, but all of the cards I boarded in were amazing, particularly the library. It is fairly annoying that Pyroblast/REB hoses almost my entire deck, but luckily this is the only matchup where that matters. I like the suggestion of Garruk or Batterskull, and I'll have to test that out.
maharis
11-18-2014, 10:06 AM
With regard to BUG, I am really curious about Mystical Teachings... our deck can conceivably cast both ends pretty easily and it finds a lot of nifty cards. This is a list I'm tooling around with:
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Polluted Delta
3x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Phyrexian Tower
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Notion Thief
1x Baleful Strix
1x Horizon Chimera
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Thragtusk
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Mystical Teachings
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Consume the Meek
1x Dig Through Time
4x Swan Song
3x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Pithing Needle
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Chill
1x Golgari Charm
23 lands might be too much. Horizon Chimera is a little cute. So is probe, but it ups the blue count and makes Therapy a monster. I just really want to teachings for Notion Thief EOT and hold it up. The Swan Song sideboard slot is questionable too... Glen Elendra is also really good in the matchups where I want SS but I have no way to really find it. Miracles can just blow me away under countertop, but if I'm holding SS Counterbalance shouldn't resolve... I think. Plus I have decay. I don't know, I haven't resolved a brainstorm in years but if there was a deck I would play it in, this would be it.
Arianrhod
11-18-2014, 10:15 AM
I'd recommend the third deed. My win percentage against Delver and Death and Taxes increased dramatically when I went from two to three, and there are few decks where the card is dead. I find that Deed is my plan A vs those decks and Abrupt Decay is my plan B, thus the 3/2 split. I also like Notion Thief better than Venser (I have Venser in the side) because he makes blue combo decks unable to win, while also randomly blowing out fair blue decks, and he doesn't require a colorless land to shine. Glen Elendra is also great vs those decks, and additionally hoses Miracles, every combo deck, and any deck that's trying to Cruise.
Miracles is one of the rougher matches for this deck that can't be fixed with some sideboard bullets, so I'd love to hear if anyone has suggestions that I'm not already running. I got a test round in last night, and managed to win in 3 although it took almost two hours. In the final game we both had Jaces ticking back and forth around 11 and 12 and I finally just ran him out of answers. This is my sideboard plan against them for BUG nic fit:
-1 Deed
-1 Therapy
-4 Explorer
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Sylvan Library
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Thragtusk
I think I'd feel better about the matchup if I had a beefy non-blue planeswalker like Garruk Relentless to bring in as well, but all of the cards I boarded in were amazing, particularly the library. It is fairly annoying that Pyroblast/REB hoses almost my entire deck, but luckily this is the only matchup where that matters. I like the suggestion of Garruk or Batterskull, and I'll have to test that out.
This is the problem I've come to in brewing as well.
There's a nascent triangle forming between the following three ur-archetypes:
Ux control (miracles, keeper)
Combo (most types, esp. storm though)
Ux tempo (UR delver & other various delvers)
combo -> tempo -> control -> combo
The issue arises when you realize that alongside Force of Will, you also need to not lose to REB/Pyroblast, which some decks are running up to SIX copies of between maindeck and sideboard. This invalidates most BUG fit weapons -- it makes Notion Thief actively awful, as well as harder-to-answer problems like Future Sight -and- the best 6-drop in Nic Fit: Consecrated Sphinx. Basically everything that BUG Fit is trying to do falls square in the firing zone for each of the 3 main ur-archetypes that exist right now.
I give up for now. I'll keep my head poked in through the door as I always do, but I'm not touching this archetype until January at the earliest.
4 Baleful Strix
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Thrun, the last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Veteran Explorer
IMHO, this sounds like too cute my friend.
1) Consecrated is nice but it lacks a good ETB trigger & only brings 4 power to the table. I have compared (in games) him to Frost titan:
- when you are ahead, both does the same job
- when you are behind (more common case with a control deck), drawing 2 more cards/a turn is just unreliable enough. Sometimes you desperately need an answer to a BSK, a grisel, an emrakul, or you just need to block; especially at this very stage of the game.
2) Clique improves your clock but 2 blue sources by T3 is too much to ask in G1. Clearly SB material when you know you are playing against combo/control and you don't have to fear wastelands.
3) Thrun is Thrun. A good wall but that's it. I feel like this slot needs to be a gaining "bunch of life" dude. Thragtusk is therefore more appealing even more when RED decks are everywhere.
4) Venser is also cute because it can only be reused with karakas. In magic christmas land, it is always easy to assemble a 1-of 2 pieces combo !
Glen Elendra, with all the blue decks in the meta, is more appealing because it is like having Last word in your deck.
At last, play Jace.
I did not speak about him in my previous post but obviously he has some "cute" synergy with at least two of the chosen creatures:
- bouncing Glen Elendra is like having infinite permission against non creature spell
- bouncing Thragtusk is as dirty as it gets
Well, this is only my personal suggestions based on my own testing.
Feel free to comment.
EDIT: Nevertheless, you are definitely right about BSK. Have to make room for it.
Pyroblast is annoying but most of our good cards against Delver are not blue, and I've never seen Storm run it, basically leaving Miracles which right now feels pretty even. I have tested against UWR delver but not the new delver-less breeed, so I'm not sure I can speak to that one.
The issue arises when you realize that alongside Force of Will, you also need to not lose to REB/Pyroblast, which some decks are running up to SIX copies of between maindeck and sideboard. This invalidates most BUG fit weapons -- it makes Notion Thief actively awful, as well as harder-to-answer problems like Future Sight -and- the best 6-drop in Nic Fit: Consecrated Sphinx. Basically everything that BUG Fit is trying to do falls square in the firing zone for each of the 3 main ur-archetypes that exist right now.
Average is 3-4 Pyro/REB, I would say.
This is not something you cannot overcome. Play surgical effects, BEB, discard etc...
I won twice against TC Patriot delver (2-1 and 2-0) packing a good number of Pyro/REB.
I won't say it is easy but with discard spells and tight plays, definitely doable.
Cabal therapy is at its highest, right now, because redundancy is even more a thing. Hitting 2 cards one shot is backbreaking. Something delver decks cannot recover from easily. TC is also ritual speed making spot discard even more powerful.
Edit: I would also add that playing against REB effect is a price to pay for playing blue. Lucky us, we also get to play black. And I'm definitely certain that tuning a perfect sideboard strategy without much commitments (meaning some sort of SB which could be detrimental against other decks) into it, is doable.
Edit 2: You can also play another beater of choice. Grave Titan does not fear REB/pyro effects. He also is a 2 turns clock. Not as good as (still better than Sphinx, imo) Frost against BSK & Monsters &Cie but at least, if he dies, leaves a couple of 2/2 so better than Frost in this case.
bryanzoll
11-18-2014, 11:32 AM
This is where I am currently at with ScapeWish. Please note that I still believe and play ScapeWish to be a mid-range deck that can win out of no-where with the combo:
4 veteran explorer
2 sakura-tribe elder
2 wood elves
2 dualcaster mage
1 obstinate baloth
1 thrun, the last troll
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
4 burning wish
3 cabal therapy
3 GSZ
2 thoughtseize
2 scapeshift
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
1 sylvan library
2 senseis divining top
4 taiga
3 badlands
2 bayou
2 stomping ground
3 forest
2 mountain
2 swamp
1 kessig wolf run
2 verdant catacombs
2 valakut
Sb:
3 slaughter games
2 carpet of flowers
3 pyroblast
1 maelstrom pulse
1 massacre
1 pyroclasm
1 ruination
1 scapeshift
1 thoughtseize
1 toxic deluge
Notes: I am at a 1|1 splits of huntmasters and baloths because I don't think I am ready to give up all huntmasters. However it is hard to ignore the fact that baloth is just so good right now.
Edit: Just wanted to share with everyone...copying opponents treasure cruise with DCM and then countering their TC with a pyroblast you just drew is the best feeling ever.
jbone2016
11-18-2014, 03:38 PM
Here is my list from the GP (13-8, counting all side events at the GP)
Dudes (17)
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
Non-Dudes (22)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Jitte
3 Deeds
3 Tops
1 Batterskull
Land (22)
3 Catacomb
3 Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword and Feast and Famine
1 Ashen Rider
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Surgical
1 Extirpate
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Chains of M.
HoneyT
11-18-2014, 06:02 PM
Report's up kiddos:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28840-Punishment-A-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey-Report-(24th-with-Nic-Fit)&p=849553#post849553
And the list for those who don't care about such things:
// Deck: Punishing Nic Fit (60)
// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Golgari Charm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
Report's up kiddos:
Yeah ! Protect the Troll 😇 .
Great job and nice report.
Seems like Titan was hidding himself? Or you killed your opponents so fast ?
HoneyT
11-18-2014, 09:42 PM
Yeah ! Protect the Troll 😇 .
Great job and nice report.
Seems like Titan was hidding himself? Or you killed your opponents so fast ?
Oh no, he made several appearances. Either my opponents couldn't answer him and he ended the game very quickly or my opponents did find an answer and I won anyway due to the value he provides.
Nithkar
11-18-2014, 10:22 PM
Congratulations again HoneyT. If I may ask you some questions, there are some things I'd like your insight on, and I would be very grateful to hear it.
1st: Were you satisfied with the 3/3 PF/AD split? Did you think that any time a 4th decay was necessary and/or the fires were clunky in the face of the speed of delver decks?
2nd: it seemed that Liliana is still performing very well despite the ascendancy of young pyro. Would you touch the number of main board Lillys?
3rd: Have you considered the deathrite-veteran split the abzan and sultai versions are doing for the punishing version?
PS: I would also ask that, if you were to play the last split, would you still run the phy tower, but you already cut that down, so no point here.
Edit: misspelling x2
Qweerios
11-19-2014, 02:26 AM
Don't take this the wrong way but those BUG lists are garbage. GSZ is, has always been, and will continue to be the glue that holds this deck together. It is the green Brainstorm because casting one is equivalent to casting a cantrip into the exact green creature you want. Playing 4 Explorers is clunky and wasteful if your only sac outlets are 4 Therapies. Playing Nic Fit without a GSZ package is like playing a bad modern deck. The prospect of playing Brainstorm and GSZ in the same deck is what BUG Fit has to offer.
I tested a BUG list similar to the one I posted and the deck is quite smooth. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy are great together. Treasure Cruise is actually great at keeping the deck going. We have the luxury to sink more mana than required to cast TC.
Don't take this the wrong way but those BUG lists are garbage. GSZ is, has always been, and will continue to be the glue that holds this deck together. It is the green Brainstorm because casting one is equivalent to casting a cantrip into the exact green creature you want. Playing 4 Explorers is clunky and wasteful if your only sac outlets are 4 Therapies. Playing Nic Fit without a GSZ package is like playing a bad modern deck. The prospect of playing Brainstorm and GSZ in the same deck is what BUG Fit has to offer.
I tested a BUG list similar to the one I posted and the deck is quite smooth. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy are great together. Treasure Cruise is actually great at keeping the deck going. We have the luxury to sink more mana than required to cast TC.
You also are only playing 4 therapies as sac outlets (in the list you posted).
Your blue count is 18 and you want to play 4 FOW ?
Gitaxian is nice, but sometimes I wish it were a ponder because:
- losing life in a control deck does matter and opening a hand with 2 or more probe is painful.
- Having Probe + CT in your opening hand (or before T3) happens, but not that often.
- Digging for 4 when you look for a therapy is far better than only 1.
Eventually it comes down to evaluate if it is better to hit more consistently with CT (thus, playing Probe) or to actually find more consistently your sac outlets (thus, playing Ponder).
Arianrhod
11-19-2014, 07:37 AM
Don't take this the wrong way but those BUG lists are garbage. GSZ is, has always been, and will continue to be the glue that holds this deck together. It is the green Brainstorm because casting one is equivalent to casting a cantrip into the exact green creature you want. Playing 4 Explorers is clunky and wasteful if your only sac outlets are 4 Therapies. Playing Nic Fit without a GSZ package is like playing a bad modern deck. The prospect of playing Brainstorm and GSZ in the same deck is what BUG Fit has to offer.
I tested a BUG list similar to the one I posted and the deck is quite smooth. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy are great together. Treasure Cruise is actually great at keeping the deck going. We have the luxury to sink more mana than required to cast TC.
I'm basically in agreement with this, although I typically play around with the numbers a little more than you do.
The problem from a BUG standpoint is the tension between Zenith and its attending package vs blue spells (FoW) and their attending packages. There are only so many slots in a deck. Even if you shave down on Explorers (which is actually probably correct for non-scape lists, at least in this metagame, as much as that breaks my heart), you're still running afoul of space concerns.
Probe in a control deck is really, really bad. I'm of the opinion that Therapy is better in this deck than Thoughtseize anyway, meaning that you're devoting only four slots to this being a 'nic fit' deck and it functions quite well without Explorer. I don't really mind GSZ but I think it's worse than the other options and doesn't fuel delve, and there is nothing you'll want to fetch aside from the veteran.
You want DTT, not Cruise. The deck has too many lands and mana dorks.
Hi everyone. I am new to actually posting in the site (I lurk from time to time), moderately new to legacy (I don't play much, although I do watch coverage sometimes) and completely new to Nic Fit, so please bear with me.
Recently my interest in legacy has increased, and I thought I wanted to build a deck that:
a) fit my play style
b) is fun (for me) to play
c) is creature based and interactive, even if it is control or even combo focused (which sums up a) and b) for me)
d) can be adapted easily depending on the meta
e) it is not a DTB
f) I can play it without hindering card availability for the friend I share the card pool with (that would mean avoid blue centered decks, as he has a bias for those kind of decks and hey, we have just one playset of duals for both of us)
Nic Fit has always caught my eye, every time I saw it on "camera". And this past week I saw the article from Gerard Fabiano on SCG and I though "that is way different of the last Nic Fit I saw on coverage". That is something I like in a deck, that it can have a stable core, but it is adaptable and can have a different version every time by changing a bunch of cards. Somehow, that is what triggered me to search for this forum. And man, it has been a very fun experience. I spent the last couple of days reading the Primer and through the thread.
This Primer is awesome. Really. Nice work to all who contributed. To be fair, I didn't expect so many options and different styles of decks when I dove in the thread, and it has been quite a ride. If I wasn't sure what deck I wanted, now I DO know I want to play Nic Fit, but don't know which of them!! I didn't even know you could fit Birthing Pod in this shell!! (I am a longtime Pod player in Modern, so that actually interests me a lot.
So if you guys don't mind, I have a bunch of questions:
1) Jund builds caught my eye first, but I'm having a hard time knowing which one I like the most, Scapewish or Punishing Fit. What would be the reasoning behind choosing one over the other? Disregard meta for know, because I don't know it yet.
2) Jund versions don't seem to run Recurring Nightmare. Why? It seems to fit the idea of the deck as well as in the BUG versions.
3) It seems most builds have one 6cc finisher. What things are considered when choosing finisher (or curve topper)? GSZ tutorable vs resilient seems to be the main dispute (Primeval vs Grave T.). Would it make sense to have different "finishers" on the board depending on matchup (FrostTy, Massacre Wurm, Wurmcoil...)? And having more than one? With the explorer Ramp, is not difficult to have 6 mana early in the game, it would make some sense to have several 6cc creatures?
4) For obvious reasons, Pod versions attract me, but being a modern Pod player, there is something bugging me with the lists I saw: there is no "combo finish" in any of them. Pod is "just" a value engine. Is that enough to justify its inclusion? Would it be weird to try to include the "I win" creature combo? Or is there too much disruption for that to be viable?
5) Has anyone tried a Jund Pod version? I've only seen BUG versions, but it seems to me (with all my non-experience, ahem) that it could be a valid option.
6) Junk... I mean Abzan versions are the ones that interest me the least for now, but they seem to be the most consistent. Why is that?
Thanks in advance, and I hope you don't mind all this questions from a total newbie with a soft spot for Birthing Pod :)
Probe in a control deck is really, really bad. I'm of the opinion that Therapy is better in this deck than Thoughtseize anyway, meaning that you're devoting only four slots to this being a 'nic fit' deck and it functions quite well without Explorer. I don't really mind GSZ but I think it's worse than the other options and doesn't fuel delve, and there is nothing you'll want to fetch aside from the veteran.
You want DTT, not Cruise. The deck has too many lands and mana dorks.
+1.
Basically what I said earlier in a few posts ago.
I spent few hours finding a way to fight back opposing TC without playing DRS.
Ever since, Blue is soft to very soft to graveyard strategy (mitigated in BUG because of DRS, without being a haymaker either)
Here, were my assumptions:
-> I still think BUG needs the acceleration provided by Veteran
-> BUG needs to play Pernicious deed as its board presence is among the lowest in all Nic Fit version:
1) You tank in the very first turns, digging for answers (spot removal, chumpblockers) & lands.
2) You sweep & stabilize
3) You land a "protected" huge monster and hope to close the deal AFAP.
From now on, I will be testing a couple of Relic of Progenitus MD for the reasons listed below:
- Active the turn you play it (unlike DRS).
- Immune to a lot of spot removal save AD.
- Immune to Pernicious Deed (akin Top)
- At least a very bad cantrip, but still replacing itself
- Good against TC & threshold (friendly fire but to a lesser extend as Nic Fit is likely able to cast TC without delving that much)
- Good against several graveyard strategy including (without being comprehensive) Punishing Fire (is a nightmare against my Walker version and any BUG version will struggle against it), Dredge, Reanimator, ANT etc...
Any other suggestions ?
Arianrhod
11-19-2014, 09:36 AM
Hi everyone. I am new to actually posting in the site (I lurk from time to time), moderately new to legacy (I don't play much, although I do watch coverage sometimes) and completely new to Nic Fit, so please bear with me.
Recently my interest in legacy has increased, and I thought I wanted to build a deck that:
a) fit my play style
b) is fun (for me) to play
c) is creature based and interactive, even if it is control or even combo focused (which sums up a) and b) for me)
d) can be adapted easily depending on the meta
e) it is not a DTB
f) I can play it without hindering card availability for the friend I share the card pool with (that would mean avoid blue centered decks, as he has a bias for those kind of decks and hey, we have just one playset of duals for both of us)
Nic Fit has always caught my eye, every time I saw it on "camera". And this past week I saw the article from Gerard Fabiano on SCG and I though "that is way different of the last Nic Fit I saw on coverage". That is something I like in a deck, that it can have a stable core, but it is adaptable and can have a different version every time by changing a bunch of cards. Somehow, that is what triggered me to search for this forum. And man, it has been a very fun experience. I spent the last couple of days reading the Primer and through the thread.
This Primer is awesome. Really. Nice work to all who contributed. To be fair, I didn't expect so many options and different styles of decks when I dove in the thread, and it has been quite a ride. If I wasn't sure what deck I wanted, now I DO know I want to play Nic Fit, but don't know which of them!! I didn't even know you could fit Birthing Pod in this shell!! (I am a longtime Pod player in Modern, so that actually interests me a lot.
So if you guys don't mind, I have a bunch of questions:
1) Jund builds caught my eye first, but I'm having a hard time knowing which one I like the most, Scapewish or Punishing Fit. What would be the reasoning behind choosing one over the other? Disregard meta for know, because I don't know it yet.
2) Jund versions don't seem to run Recurring Nightmare. Why? It seems to fit the idea of the deck as well as in the BUG versions.
3) It seems most builds have one 6cc finisher. What things are considered when choosing finisher (or curve topper)? GSZ tutorable vs resilient seems to be the main dispute (Primeval vs Grave T.). Would it make sense to have different "finishers" on the board depending on matchup (FrostTy, Massacre Wurm, Wurmcoil...)? And having more than one? With the explorer Ramp, is not difficult to have 6 mana early in the game, it would make some sense to have several 6cc creatures?
4) For obvious reasons, Pod versions attract me, but being a modern Pod player, there is something bugging me with the lists I saw: there is no "combo finish" in any of them. Pod is "just" a value engine. Is that enough to justify its inclusion? Would it be weird to try to include the "I win" creature combo? Or is there too much disruption for that to be viable?
5) Has anyone tried a Jund Pod version? I've only seen BUG versions, but it seems to me (with all my non-experience, ahem) that it could be a valid option.
6) Junk... I mean Abzan versions are the ones that interest me the least for now, but they seem to be the most consistent. Why is that?
Thanks in advance, and I hope you don't mind all this questions from a total newbie with a soft spot for Birthing Pod :)
1) Punishing Fire is a hard control list. Scapewish is either a midrange deck with a combo finish or a combo/control deck, depending on which subvariant you want. It's basically how aggressive you want to be.
2) Harder to find it, doesn't tend to do as much since most of Jund's creatures are fairly low-impact overall. Some of this may be wrong -- it's an old notion that dates back to when Junk lists still ran Academy Rector.
3) The problem here is that sometimes, the game doesn't go as you plan, and you don't get to ramp as much as you would like. Sometimes you draw an opening hand with a bunch of 5s and 6s and lands and you do nothing forever (or mull it). In a perfect world where we curved naturally every game, sure, we'd run probably 3 six-drops. Some of the BUG lists still do. It's usually a little safer on the curve to only run 1, though. As to which one is selected....that's a bit more complex of a discussion since it varies wildly based on the individual list.
4) I'm a big fan of combo finishes in nic fit. The problem is that most of the ones offered by Pod are pretty rancid -- a lot of them are 3+ card combos which don't really work well in legacy. Spike Feeder / Archangel of Thune has seen a good bit of play in junk lists, although they typically trend more towards junk midrange/junk control style, with no pods. Some of that is likely because Spike Feeder isn't a great Pod card. Still, this combo has proven itself and if you want to run it, nobody will stop you. It's worth remembering that legacy gets a lot of banned toys compared to modern. How quickly would Melira Pod run Stoneforge Mystic + package if it could? At some point the space just runs out.
5) Jund Pod has been theorized a million times but never actually put into practice. The upper-cmc is all there -- the biggest problem is at the 2-spot, where you're pretty damn weak. Jund Pod is realistically one-two 2-drops away from being very strong. Neither Bob nor Goyf is what we want (the traditional Jund 2-drops).
6) Junk has a TON of raw power, and it flat wins some percentage of games just by flexing its arm Popeye-style and making its opponents quiver in fear. I'm not really sure where this illusion of consistency comes from otherwise -- it has its own problems, as with every forme of nic fit. There is no "ultimate version" -- at least, not yet.
Arianrhod
11-19-2014, 09:37 AM
+1.
Basically what I said earlier in a few posts ago.
I spent few hours finding a way to fight back opposing TC without playing DRS.
Ever since, Blue is soft to very soft to graveyard strategy (mitigated in BUG because of DRS, without being a haymaker either)
Here, were my assumptions:
-> I still think BUG needs the acceleration provided by Veteran
-> BUG needs to play Pernicious deed as its board presence is among the lowest in all Nic Fit version:
1) You tank in the very first turns, digging for answers (spot removal, chumpblockers) & lands.
2) You sweep & stabilize
3) You land a "protected" huge monster and hope to close the deal AFAP.
From now on, I will be testing a couple of Relic of Progenitus MD for the reasons listed below:
- Active the turn you play it (unlike DRS).
- Immune to a lot of spot removal save AD.
- Immune to Pernicious Deed (akin Top)
- At least a very bad cantrip, but still replacing itself
- Good against TC & threshold (friendly fire but to a lesser extend as Nic Fit is likely able to cast TC without delving that much)
- Good against several graveyard strategy including (without being comprehensive) Punishing Fire (is a nightmare against my Walker version and any BUG version will struggle against it), Dredge, Reanimator etc...
Any other suggestions ?
Is Relic better than Nihil Spellbomb?
Is Relic better than Nihil Spellbomb?
Save the non friendly fire thing. Yes.
You can ride a relic during a whole game, not a nihil.
You could also raise another valid point in that nihil is normally not impacted by AD (except if you are tapped out of black mana, you don't get to draw).
Relic keeps pressuring opponent's graveyard: 1 card per opponent turn (likely being used at every EOOT in early stage of a game).
Nevertheless, drawing a relic midgame will likely turn it as a friendly fire nihil.
One has to evaluate such odds and make an appropriate choice:
- if opponent's graveyard is on a low count (for any reasons: early game, recently cast TC... ) -> Relic > Nihil
- if opponent's graveyard is full and waiting to be delved -> for 1CMC more Nihil > Relic
As aforementioned, Nic Fit should be able to cast TC or DTT without delving much, so I'm very tempted to just go for the "flexibility" thing -> Relic.
I think the better solution is just to run your own delve cards, because against most decks a Relic is taking up your turn 1 while only being a minor annoyance to them. Even something like ANT doesn't care all that much if you're munching their graveyard. You have Glen Elendra, potentially Notion Thief, and FOW to deal with Cruise, as well as your own digs to find that stuff.
I added 3 DRS to the side for decks like dredge, storm and reanimator, but I'm not sure if it's the best GY hate card. I'd run Oozes, except that they suck in the deck due to the lack of green sources. Would spellbomb just be better? It's definitely worse against storm, about even against reanimator, and way better against dredge. It's also potentially ok vs miracles.
I think the better solution is just to run your own delve cards, because against most decks a Relic is taking up your turn 1 while only being a minor annoyance to them. Even something like ANT doesn't care all that much if you're munching their graveyard. You have Glen Elendra, potentially Notion Thief, and FOW to deal with Cruise, as well as your own digs to find that stuff.
I added 3 DRS to the side for decks like dredge, storm and reanimator, but I'm not sure if it's the best GY hate card. I'd run Oozes, except that they suck in the deck due to the lack of green sources. Would spellbomb just be better? It's definitely worse against storm, about even against reanimator, and way better against dredge. It's also potentially ok vs miracles.
First Note:
Well, sadly, you won't get to cruise BEFORE a deck designed to cruise on T3.
Tempo decks will likely cruise before control ones.
This is very important because the first cruiser has better odds to:
- have a FOW in hand for your cruise -> you are at 1 card disadvantage
- setup the 2nd cruise, etc... -> certainly the worst issue
So, imho, you cannot fight back only by using their own weapons.
Second Note:
I'm not sure to fully understand your assumption of Nihil > Relic against dredge (or you were talking about your DRS sideboard option)?
Furthermore, Relic is a pain for ANT:
- They have to keep their spell in hands and unload them at the same time.
- It invalidates the PIF plan, so that their only path is usually Ad Nauseam into chain spell into Tendrils.
Last note:
The list I have posted one page back is already full of delve cards and answers:
- FOW
- Glen Elendra
- TC/ DTT
T1 -> Relic is a strong play (On the play). Sure your opponent can only crack fetch/play instant during your T2 so that you are losing 1 turn of Relic's ability but it is not that relevant. On the draw, I'd make sure I can play it "Daze" proof (against an unknow opponent, obviously).
I'm not saying that relic is irrelevant, just that I think it's better to ponder into deed or whatever and blow up whatever they drew off cruise, or just counter the cruise. This is especially important because of how many decks don't really care about relic at all (sneak&show, elves, death and taxes, etc). I don't find that the deck stuggles against cruise decks anyway, with the exception of possibly esper stoneblade.
I play ANT as well, and people often board in Cage or RIP against me. It's not irrelevant, especially RIP because it makes cabal ritual fairly bad, but it's really not great either. Ideally, the deck wants to tutor chain into tendrils. Barring that, it wants to PIF, followed by ad nauseum, so if you board in cage or relic vs storm you've added multiple cards in your deck for one card in the storm deck, and they'll just take another route to victory.
And I meant that Nihil is better than DRS against dredge.
maharis
11-19-2014, 11:54 AM
Don't take this the wrong way but those BUG lists are garbage. GSZ is, has always been, and will continue to be the glue that holds this deck together. It is the green Brainstorm because casting one is equivalent to casting a cantrip into the exact green creature you want. Playing 4 Explorers is clunky and wasteful if your only sac outlets are 4 Therapies. Playing Nic Fit without a GSZ package is like playing a bad modern deck. The prospect of playing Brainstorm and GSZ in the same deck is what BUG Fit has to offer.
I tested a BUG list similar to the one I posted and the deck is quite smooth. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy are great together. Treasure Cruise is actually great at keeping the deck going. We have the luxury to sink more mana than required to cast TC.
I'm basically in agreement with this, although I typically play around with the numbers a little more than you do.
The problem from a BUG standpoint is the tension between Zenith and its attending package vs blue spells (FoW) and their attending packages. There are only so many slots in a deck. Even if you shave down on Explorers (which is actually probably correct for non-scape lists, at least in this metagame, as much as that breaks my heart), you're still running afoul of space concerns.
You guys both hit on some issues I've noticed in trying to brew BUG. GSZ is a sweet card. But there is a BUG pod player at my store who doesn't run GSZ and I think he's right that it just isn't want the bug versions want to do. He plays things like clique, sower of temptation, glen elendra and grave titan. GSZ gets him nowhere so he doesn't bother. Of course he has to play 4 vetex. But then i guess the point is that with Brainstorm and Jace he can ditch late ones anyway. Something like 2 GSZ + 2 VetEx or even 3 + 1 with some number of DRS and some late-game GSZ targets is likely right. But how good is this deck vs. any other brainstorm deck?
I tried to go halfway with some creatures that were both GSZable and Teachings-able (and of course with Teferi on the field any creature is a Teachings target) but those are things like Horizon Chimera. And Pyroblast effects are a real thing at the moment against your big blue spells/permanents.
The other option, of course, is to not run Force. Then you can cut down your blue count and really just play Brainstorm for value and whatever other randomness you want in your deck. I don't think that's the worst thing in the world. Nothing is as good at doing what Force does but there are plenty of counterspells available.
6) Junk... I mean Abzan versions are the ones that interest me the least for now, but they seem to be the most consistent. Why is that?
So I have been playing Junk for a while, I played it at the GP and I actually thought it was really good and I think I would've done better with a little more practice. The thing about the deck is that vs. the metagame I think it's pretty strong because you get a lot of lifegain vs. the aggressive tempo decks and a decent amount of disruption for other matchups. But it takes a lot of testing and card choice is very important. Just little things like whether you feel you want Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top change your approach to cards like Pernicious Deed. I also found that the deck can stall out, especially if you get into a batterskull war.
I do think Siege Rhino is a true game-changer for the deck though, typically pushing the last few points through has been a struggle and having a way to just dome for 3 can make a big difference. It actually prevents you from needing to play a 6 drop imo. The format is very fast and having your 6-drop in hand forever is just a nightmare. Siege Rhino has ETB, has evasion (another issue for Junk builds). But there's no real reason not to run a Titan or similar if you want. I just prefer to not do that. I could be wrong though.
Also I am definitely on team spellbomb but that's because of my irrational love for Knight of the Reliquary + Vault of the Archangel. From a UR perspective, I don't care what they cruise into if I get that going, I don't even bother trying to shut off their cruises, especially preboard. Against other builds, shutting off cruise may be relevant but Spellbomb is fine. Spellbomb being active turn one is also super important against dredge/reanimator.
1) Punishing Fire is a hard control list. Scapewish is either a midrange deck with a combo finish or a combo/control deck, depending on which subvariant you want. It's basically how aggressive you want to be.
2) Harder to find it, doesn't tend to do as much since most of Jund's creatures are fairly low-impact overall. Some of this may be wrong -- it's an old notion that dates back to when Junk lists still ran Academy Rector.
3) The problem here is that sometimes, the game doesn't go as you plan, and you don't get to ramp as much as you would like. Sometimes you draw an opening hand with a bunch of 5s and 6s and lands and you do nothing forever (or mull it). In a perfect world where we curved naturally every game, sure, we'd run probably 3 six-drops. Some of the BUG lists still do. It's usually a little safer on the curve to only run 1, though. As to which one is selected....that's a bit more complex of a discussion since it varies wildly based on the individual list.
4) I'm a big fan of combo finishes in nic fit. The problem is that most of the ones offered by Pod are pretty rancid -- a lot of them are 3+ card combos which don't really work well in legacy. Spike Feeder / Archangel of Thune has seen a good bit of play in junk lists, although they typically trend more towards junk midrange/junk control style, with no pods. Some of that is likely because Spike Feeder isn't a great Pod card. Still, this combo has proven itself and if you want to run it, nobody will stop you. It's worth remembering that legacy gets a lot of banned toys compared to modern. How quickly would Melira Pod run Stoneforge Mystic + package if it could? At some point the space just runs out.
5) Jund Pod has been theorized a million times but never actually put into practice. The upper-cmc is all there -- the biggest problem is at the 2-spot, where you're pretty damn weak. Jund Pod is realistically one-two 2-drops away from being very strong. Neither Bob nor Goyf is what we want (the traditional Jund 2-drops).
6) Junk has a TON of raw power, and it flat wins some percentage of games just by flexing its arm Popeye-style and making its opponents quiver in fear. I'm not really sure where this illusion of consistency comes from otherwise -- it has its own problems, as with every forme of nic fit. There is no "ultimate version" -- at least, not yet.
Thanks a lot for your answers, Arianrhod.
From what you said I also infer that the lack of good early creatures on Jund for the Pod packages also hurts Recurring Nightmare. I'll try to stay away from Pod + Rec for the time being. Better to know the archetype before going fancy. I think the best way to see what I like and what works for me is sleeving something up and playing. I'll start with one of the list here and work from there.
A couple more questions though:
Does the Gerard Fabiano list have any merit to it? Has anyone tried it? Seems to be so far from the discussions in this thread.
Is GY hate more common now with the rising of delve cards? Does that hurt Punishing Fire strategies too much?
Thanks a lot for your answers, Arianrhod.
From what you said I also infer that the lack of good early creatures on Jund for the Pod packages also hurts Recurring Nightmare. I'll try to stay away from Pod + Rec for the time being. Better to know the archetype before going fancy. I think the best way to see what I like and what works for me is sleeving something up and playing. I'll start with one of the list here and work from there.
A couple more questions though:
Does the Gerard Fabiano list have any merit to it? Has anyone tried it? Seems to be so far from the discussions in this thread.
Is GY hate more common now with the rising of delve cards? Does that hurt Punishing Fire strategies too much?
People are randomly maindecking GY hate but it's not actually all that good, so I wouldn't worry about it. If they have 4 maindeck Leyline of the Voids and you have 4 punishing fires, yours will still be 2 damage for 2 while all of theirs beyond the first are dead. Fabiano's list looks very bad to me, but I haven't tried it. It looks like he tried to get way too cute. Academy/EE is cool but I suspect it's too slow without more counterspells.
Recurring nightmare/pod for Jund isn't used that much because there aren't actually a lot of good R/G value creatures compared to BUG or junk, or at least that I can think of. It's certainly something you can try.
sdematt
11-20-2014, 02:20 AM
Inspired by Tim's finish, I'll be trying this setup:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thragtusk
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Massacre
I'm going to try Path since if your opponent is getting basics off Vet, Path will make my Vets more asymmetrical and realistically, I want to Siege Rhino people out of games. I don't care about their lands. Maybe I'm wrong, but these Russian Paths need their day in the sunlight. Now to finish off my set of Korean Veteran Explorers and Carpets and we're golden.
-Matt
Whitefaces
11-20-2014, 05:18 AM
Maybe I'm being a bit crazy, but Aether Flash looks exciting! Probably from the SB, but if you land it early off some ramp it could be pretty devastating for most creature decks. I think I'll give it a try at my LGSs next Legacy night in Punishing Fit.
Fatal
11-20-2014, 05:22 AM
Aether Flash do nothing vs resolved delver/young pyromancer its 2RR so rather hard to resolve under spell pierces - I would rather focused on remove to kill creatures resolved turn1-2, after you stabilize most time game is yours.
EpicLevelCommoner
11-20-2014, 07:30 AM
I know I probably missed the boat on this, but what do yall think of the titania+safekeeper eot army? Seems like the kinda thing all forms of Nic Fit needed in general (a way ti close out the game quickly that is)
I know I probably missed the boat on this, but what do yall think of the titania+safekeeper eot army? Seems like the kinda thing all forms of Nic Fit needed in general (a way ti close out the game quickly that is)
I think it's really powerful. If you can survive the following turn, there's really no way they're beating roughly 40 power of creatures outside of a miracled terminus. It seems strong in a list with GSZ and Knight of the Reliquary, since they naturally combo well with Titania and are good cards. Then the deck starts to look more like a Maverick-type shell though, which maybe isn't what we want.
I have been experimenting with different builds, haven't actually played any of them against anything, as they all just seem to weak to me so far.
You could run it in a pod shell instead of grave titan. If it's BUG pod, this gives you an option to play trinket mage for zuran orb. The issue is that zuran orb and sylvan safekeeper are just pretty weak cards without other synergies to back them up (loam with orb, and equipment with safekeeper). Pod also took a massive beating now that everyone just incidentally has containment priests in their SBs. It is possible that Titania is just good enough on its own and doesn't need any support.
EpicLevelCommoner
11-20-2014, 12:19 PM
I think it's really powerful. If you can survive the following turn, there's really no way they're beating roughly 40 power of creatures outside of a miracled terminus. It seems strong in a list with GSZ and Knight of the Reliquary, since they naturally combo well with Titania and are good cards. Then the deck starts to look more like a Maverick-type shell though, which maybe isn't what we want.
I have been experimenting with different builds, haven't actually played any of them against anything, as they all just seem to weak to me so far.
You could run it in a pod shell instead of grave titan. If it's BUG pod, this gives you an option to play trinket mage for zuran orb. The issue is that zuran orb and sylvan safekeeper are just pretty weak cards without other synergies to back them up (loam with orb, and equipment with safekeeper). Pod also took a massive beating now that everyone just incidentally has containment priests in their SBs. It is possible that Titania is just good enough on its own and doesn't need any support.
True, Safekeeper is weak by itself. But I think it still shines pretty well in matchups where we need to protect a Gaddock Teeg or other hate bears from spot removal.
As far as "becoming Maverick" is concerned, I think Titania is one of those cards that demands to be used in a Nic-Fit shell due to her mana cost. I know Maverick is trying to shoehorn her and Gaea's Cradle into their lists, but it feels ... greedy ... considering that sweepers are becoming more popular now. Plus, as long as your Deathrite Shaman hasn't cleaned your own graveyard of fetches, she's effectively two 5/3s plus a bodiless Wood Elves for 5.
Qweerios
11-20-2014, 02:00 PM
You also are only playing 4 therapies as sac outlets (in the list you posted).
Your blue count is 18 and you want to play 4 FOW ?
Gitaxian is nice, but sometimes I wish it were a ponder because:
- losing life in a control deck does matter and opening a hand with 2 or more probe is painful.
- Having Probe + CT in your opening hand (or before T3) happens, but not that often.
- Digging for 4 when you look for a therapy is far better than only 1.
Eventually it comes down to evaluate if it is better to hit more consistently with CT (thus, playing Probe) or to actually find more consistently your sac outlets (thus, playing Ponder).
The similar list I tested played 2 Explorers, 2 DRS, and 4 GSZ with the Rec Sage in the SB and a Kruphix in the main instead.
-18 is the minimal functional blue count for FoW. Yes, it is enough.
-When life becomes an issue, you hardcast the probe. We arent playing a tempo deck. Therefore our hands aren't packed with CMC 1 cards that maximize the use of each of our lands. You will always find 2 life or 1 mana to squeeze the additional copies in the first few turns without having to sacrifice anything. I played 4 Probes in BUG Fit 1-2 years back they are amazing. They were also focal at enabling FoW postboard.
-It doesn't matter if it doesn't happen all the time.. By that logic, having an Explorer and a Therapy in your hand at the same time happens, but not often enough. While that is true, you have to evaluate the synergy and individual worth of the cards. The main difference between Explorer and Probe however, is that Probe isn't dead on its own, making it better in every instances.
-Probe isn't about digging, its about having a higher blue count and seeing your opponent's hand for free. You don't use Probe as a tutor for Therapy, it is simply a damn good blue card, and an even better one with Therapy.
-DTT isn't better than TC. Unlike nearly every other deck, we actually want to draw into lands because we can use up to 7 lands in play (GSZ@6). The turn you draw the card is the turn you want to play it, and drawing 3 cards for 1 less mana is actually relevant. Unless your deck is filled with bad situational cards (AKA: Lands, Legendary permanents, cards that do nothing for specific matchups, cards that do nothing in multiples), TC beats DTT every time.
Arianrhod
11-20-2014, 02:10 PM
I'm sure a reason exists, but why don't decks just arbitrarily add 4x Probe to their deck (and run 64/65 cards). I'm guessing because it adds another level of randomization to the cards you draw (less chance to have X in opening hand, then less chance to randomly draw X on any draw in the game)?
My problem with Probe is not its strength as a card, which I don't think you an really question effectively. Card's good. The problem is finding enough room to have meaningful cards in your deck alongside of it.
Qweerios
11-20-2014, 02:21 PM
I'm sure a reason exists, but why don't decks just arbitrarily add 4x Probe to their deck (and run 64/65 cards). I'm guessing because it adds another level of randomization to the cards you draw (less chance to have X in opening hand, then less chance to randomly draw X on any draw in the game)?
My problem with Probe is not its strength as a card, which I don't think you an really question effectively. Card's good. The problem is finding enough room to have meaningful cards in your deck alongside of it.
I remember answering this question in this thread before. The reason why we don't all auto-include 4 Probes is because it has a cost. You gladly want to pay 2 life to start the game with your opponent's hand revealed, but you don't want to pay 4-8 life or sink important mana during a game for the same overlapping effect. Unless your deck somehow takes a greater advantage from the card (AKA: Fill GY for TC or hand information for CT) or manages its cost, the repetitive costs outweigh the one-time benefit.
Also, a starting hand with multiple Probes is increasingly difficult to gauge.
HoneyT
11-20-2014, 06:13 PM
Inspired by Tim's finish, I'll be trying this setup:
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thragtusk
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Massacre
-Matt
A few thoughts about the list:
-I LOVE quad Siege Rhino. He's the fucking truth. I've been trying to talk other Junk players into running four of that guy.
-Thrun is not necessary alongside Sigarda. If you're in white, she's just better.
-I also prefer either Council's Judgement or Vindicate to Maelstrom Pulse in Junk colors (I personally play Judgement)
-I still don't like Dryad Arbor in any non-pod list.
Congratulations again HoneyT. If I may ask you some questions, there are some things I'd like your insight on, and I would be very grateful to hear it.
1st: Were you satisfied with the 3/3 PF/AD split? Did you think that any time a 4th decay was necessary and/or the fires were clunky in the face of the speed of delver decks?
2nd: it seemed that Liliana is still performing very well despite the ascendancy of young pyro. Would you touch the number of main board Lillys?
3rd: Have you considered the deathrite-veteran split the abzan and sultai versions are doing for the punishing version?
PS: I would also ask that, if you were to play the last split, would you still run the phy tower, but you already cut that down, so no point here.
1. I was very happy with the removal suite. I would play the 4th Fire over the 4th Decay in this metagame if I were to change anything (I wouldn't). With fewer Tarmogoyfs running around, PFire usually kills everything. You want to see 1 copy in most games, so three is a good number to make that happen.
2. Absolutely not. Liliana is easily one of the best cards in the deck. She's the reason this version can steal game ones against combo and is incredible at locking out many of the fair decks. The fact that she's (marginally) worse in the face of more Young Pyromancers is mitigated by the fact that my deck gives approximately zero shits about that card.
3. I have considered a split and I've even played DRS in my list before. The only split I would consider playing is 4 VE/1 DRS. The thing a lot of Nic Fit players it seems are losing focus on is we are at heart a Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy deck. Our deck operates at it's best when we assemble that combination of cards. So running less than 4 of each is folly. I understand there are more basic lands in Legacy than there have been in the past and there's fear that our opponents can also take advantage of an Explorer. While this is true to some degree, the fact of the matter is by decreasing our ability to fire an Explorer off, we're decreasing the efficiency of our own deck as a whole. That is simply not worth it. I want my deck to operate at peak capacity game one. This isn't to say I never sideboard out some number of Explorers, but I always want 4 in my maindeck.
Is GY hate more common now with the rising of delve cards? Does that hurt Punishing Fire strategies too much?
No.
Hi HoneyT, congrats again with your excellent finish. I was wondering why you did not include Reclamation Sage as part of your GSZ package, considering that you have a lone Krosan Grip in your SB. Thanks!
EpicLevelCommoner
11-20-2014, 09:13 PM
3. I have considered a split and I've even played DRS in my list before. The only split I would consider playing is 4 VE/1 DRS. The thing a lot of Nic Fit players it seems are losing focus on is we are at heart a Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy deck. Our deck operates at it's best when we assemble that combination of cards. So running less than 4 of each is folly. I understand there are more basic lands in Legacy than there have been in the past and there's fear that our opponents can also take advantage of an Explorer. While this is true to some degree, the fact of the matter is by decreasing our ability to fire an Explorer off, we're decreasing the efficiency of our own deck as a whole. That is simply not worth it. I want my deck to operate at peak capacity game one. This isn't to say I never sideboard out some number of Explorers, but I always want 4 in my maindeck.
Strangely enough, I agree, even though I'm skeptical about the viability of Veteran Explorer in the meta in general (It's just not as easy to set off in a world full of Delver, Swords, Terminus, etc., it seems). Of course, that stems from the fact that we need a Cabal Therapy to hit the yard first before we can even think of landing a Vet or GSZ into Vet in said meta, and Therapy isn't as easy to tutor for as Vet is.
Jain_Mor
11-20-2014, 11:10 PM
Ok incoming list with advice request!
Still constantly testing ideas, and have a local tournament tomorrow!
With the decrease in wastelands, having excess mana and equipment, I decided to test some man lands >:) At the moment I have 1 of each...
Wondering if you think one is obviously better, or that they are all terrible and I shouldn't bother D:
Other than that, Liliana is back, I realised I wanted her against so many decks, that putting her main freed up some sideboard slots.
4 Verd Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Treetop village
1 Mishra's Factory
23
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Greensun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scooze
1 Goyf
1 Teeg
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 Sword of F&I
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana
2 Sylvan Library
61
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sprit of the Labyrinth
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Here is how I board with this, be interested to see what people think:
Aggro (Removal, Sweepers, Superior Creatures)
UR delver:
-1 teeg -2 Lili -2 library
+1 rec sage (null rod, cage, vortex) +2 deed +2 SoL (play the spirit once you have traded a bit, stop them from digging)
Jeskai Delver:
-1 teeg -2 lib (they don't run pyro, so Lili is sweet)
+1 rec sage +2 deed
Death & Taxes:
-1 teeg -2 Lili/library?
+1 rec sage +2 deed
(I want needle, but worried it's a nonbo with deed, library can dig for sweeper, but is easily revokered and deeded, but Lili costs 3 and just might be bad)
Transitioning to combo (thanks elves!) (Discard and Hatebears):
Elves:
-1 goyf -2 Lili -1 Sigarda -1 BSK -2 library/decay -2 decay
+3 TS +2 canonist +2 SoL +2 deed
(Similar question here, decay is really inefficient, would I rather try and dig for more wrath effects/hate with library, or keep in some decays for some 1 mana creatures?)
ANT:
-1 treetop -2 SFM -1 Jitte -4 decay -1 Sigarda -3 deluge(?how afraid of empty should I be?)
+2 extract +3 TS +2 canonist +2 SoL +1 Rec Sage +2 Deed
Sneak & Show/OmniTell
-1 treetop -2 SFM -1 Jitte -4 decay -1 Sigarda -3 deluge
+2 extract +3 TS +2 canonist +2 SoL +1 Rec Sage +2 needle
Reanimator
-1 treetop -1 SFM -1 Jitte -4 decay -1 Sigarda -3 deluge
+2 extract +3 TS +2 canonist +2 SoL +2 needle
Dredge
-2 decay -2 Lili
+2 Extct +2 Deed
Grindy matchups (resilient threats, pinpoint answers)
Jeskai Stoneblade
-1 teeg -1 jitte
+1 rec sage +1 Garruk PH
Miracles
-2 therapy -1 veteran -1 shaman -1 jitte -1 scooze -3 deluge
+3 TS +2 needle +1 RecSage +2 Deed +1 Garruk
GBr midrange (usually with punfire but really dependent on the variant)
-1 teeg -2 therapy -2 deluge
+2 ext +2 deed +1 garruk
Lands
-1 teeg -3 deluge -1 jitte -1 therapy
+2 extct +2 needle +1 rec sage +1 Garruk PH
I think that's most of my notes. Please. If you are going to suggest additions or changes, make sure they deck is still 75/76 cards when you're done :P
Edit: haha why are my posts always at the bottom of pages -.- #1stworldproblem
ANRoebuck
11-20-2014, 11:33 PM
Report's up kiddos:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28840-Punishment-A-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey-Report-(24th-with-Nic-Fit)&p=849553#post849553
Moving questions over from the report page...
What's your combo match like with this build? Nicfit is always better against fair decks than against combo, but your build seems particularly skewed. I notice you only played against one combo deck in 15 rounds, and that was one of the two losses. You're low on disruption for game 1 (I know you have Liliana, but it's 3 mana and they choose what to discard). Did you test much against combo? Was there much combo in the room generally or was there a big bias towards creature decks?
No love for Phyrexian Tower? The ability to sac an Explorer to Tower on turn two is, in my view, one of the best reasons to play the deck. Turn two Thragtusk/Zenith for 4/Slaughter Games+Thoughtseize is no laughing matter, especially on the play. Only 1 of your 23 lands doesn't make coloured mana, so I'm sure you could get away with playing a Tower in this list. Plus tapping for colourless isn't terrible in a deck with 25 spells you can use colourless mana on, plus Top to sink it into later.
Golgari Charm straight in the main instead of in the side is a nice move. How did it work out for you?
Do you think all 4 Tops are necessary? The card is crazy good but I've never played more than 3 as I'm generally not spinning early anyway (it doesn't feel proactive enough).
Whitefaces
11-21-2014, 05:15 AM
No love for Phyrexian Tower? The ability to sac an Explorer to Tower on turn two is, in my view, one of the best reasons to play the deck. Turn two Thragtusk/Zenith for 4/Slaughter Games+Thoughtseize is no laughing matter, especially on the play. Only 1 of your 23 lands doesn't make coloured mana, so I'm sure you could get away with playing a Tower in this list. Plus tapping for colourless isn't terrible in a deck with 25 spells you can use colourless mana on, plus Top to sink it into later.
I was going to ask this as well. And any thoughts on Volrath's Stronghold? Only having Groves and Wolf Run seems like a little bit of missed opportunity for Prime Time.
The similar list I tested played 2 Explorers, 2 DRS, and 4 GSZ with the Rec Sage in the SB and a Kruphix in the main instead.
-18 is the minimal functional blue count for FoW. Yes, it is enough.
-When life becomes an issue, you hardcast the probe. We arent playing a tempo deck. Therefore our hands aren't packed with CMC 1 cards that maximize the use of each of our lands. You will always find 2 life or 1 mana to squeeze the additional copies in the first few turns without having to sacrifice anything. I played 4 Probes in BUG Fit 1-2 years back they are amazing. They were also focal at enabling FoW postboard.
-It doesn't matter if it doesn't happen all the time.. By that logic, having an Explorer and a Therapy in your hand at the same time happens, but not often enough. While that is true, you have to evaluate the synergy and individual worth of the cards. The main difference between Explorer and Probe however, is that Probe isn't dead on its own, making it better in every instances.
-Probe isn't about digging, its about having a higher blue count and seeing your opponent's hand for free. You don't use Probe as a tutor for Therapy, it is simply a damn good blue card, and an even better one with Therapy.
-DTT isn't better than TC. Unlike nearly every other deck, we actually want to draw into lands because we can use up to 7 lands in play (GSZ@6). The turn you draw the card is the turn you want to play it, and drawing 3 cards for 1 less mana is actually relevant. Unless your deck is filled with bad situational cards (AKA: Lands, Legendary permanents, cards that do nothing for specific matchups, cards that do nothing in multiples), TC beats DTT every time.
1) Ok seems legit. here is an old article with a player's experience & "maths" included.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-debunking-force-of-will
-According to the writer -> 15 seems to be the bare minimum to play FOW. So >=15 , feel free to use the number that fits you.
2) While I could agree with some of your logic, I think you don't get my point. I'm comparing Probe with Ponder to know which one is better in terms of fulfilling a deck's strategy: ramping to go over the top.
And even if you are not "digging" with Probe, in a certain sense, you are playing them as a 4-of which, per definition, increases by 0,x % your odds to see every other cards in your deck, including the ones you really want to see (explorer + CT):
a) Paying 1 for just drawing 1 is bad when you could have "ponder" instead. The first probe is very strong. Each other iteration is average (you need to know opponent's hand) to very bad (you pay 1/2 life to draw 1). Ponder is never strong as a Probe could be in certain circumstances, but Ponder will never be bad.
b) If I have to evaluate synergy & individual worth of a card, here. Ponder > Probe, if your goal is to setup a CT + Explorer. And yes that is my main goal.
c) We are no combo/tempo deck, here. We are not pro-active but re-actif. We are a control archetype. Probe is better for proactive decks.
d) DTT>TC for reactive decks:
- 2 chosen cards > 3 unknown when you are looking for answers.
- DTT is instant and can be played (EOOT) without losing tempo at the constraint of double blue. Actually, by playing TC you can lose some crucial tempo.
I think we can agree to disagree on this. I'm fine, until you or me change his mind :cool:
Nargoron
11-21-2014, 09:02 AM
Ok incoming list with advice request!
Still constantly testing ideas, and have a local tournament tomorrow!
With the decrease in wastelands, having excess mana and equipment, I decided to test some man lands >:) At the moment I have 1 of each...
Wondering if you think one is obviously better, or that they are all terrible and I shouldn't bother D:
Other than that, Liliana is back, I realised I wanted her against so many decks, that putting her main freed up some sideboard slots.
4 Verd Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Treetop village
1 Mishra's Factory
23
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Greensun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Scooze
1 Goyf
1 Teeg
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 Sword of F&I
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Toxic Deluge
2 Liliana
2 Sylvan Library
61
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sprit of the Labyrinth
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
I'm still not sure that Lili is what i want... often she is just one time removal spell.. in this way, +Swords to P. is simply better. And in 90% of cases you dont have card to discard to her.
btw you run 0xSwords to P. ?
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Treetop village
1 Mishra's Factory
without Pernicious deed play this? why?
Btw what about Enlightened Tutor in sideboard? You are plaing 2x canoist, 2x pithing needle, 2x spirit of the labyrint, pernicious deed... tutor can help you get silver bullets. What do you think?
// Did you tested Lingering souls? It looks like good choice... 2 or 4 1/1 flyers are good defense or decent clock.. and bodies for ours equipments
1) Ok seems legit. here is an old article with a player's experience & "maths" included.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-debunking-force-of-will
-According to the writer -> 15 seems to be the bare minimum to play FOW. So >=15 , feel free to use the number that fits you.
2) While I could agree with some of your logic, I think you don't get my point. I'm comparing Probe with Ponder to know which one is better in terms of fulfilling a deck's strategy: ramping to go over the top.
And even if you are not "digging" with Probe, in a certain sense, you are playing them as a 4-of which, per definition, increases by 0,x % your odds to see every other cards in your deck, including the ones you really want to see (explorer + CT):
a) Paying 1 for just drawing 1 is bad when you could have "ponder" instead. The first probe is very strong. Each other iteration is average (you need to know opponent's hand) to very bad (you pay 1/2 life to draw 1). Ponder is never strong as a Probe could be in certain circumstances, but Ponder will never be bad.
b) If I have to evaluate synergy & individual worth of a card, here. Ponder > Probe, if your goal is to setup a CT + Explorer. And yes that is my main goal.
c) We are no combo/tempo deck, here. We are not pro-active but re-actif. We are a control archetype. Probe is better for proactive decks.
d) DTT>TC for reactive decks:
- 2 chosen cards > 3 unknown when you are looking for answers.
- DTT is instant and can be played (EOOT) without losing tempo at the constraint of double blue. Actually, by playing TC you can lose some crucial tempo.
I think we can agree to disagree on this. I'm fine, until you or me change his mind :cool:
I fully agree with the rest of your post, but here's some math on the number of blue cards in your deck (fow included) and the amount of times a FoW in your opening hand will be 'live:'
15 0.843332274
16 0.864696055
17 0.883575675
18 0.900207721
19 0.914811469
20 0.927589749
21 0.938729788
22 0.948404032
(My math is a little off from Caleb's, but he didn't show how he got his answer so I can't compare). Anyway, is a 15% chance of having a dead force because of deck construction choices ok with you? Over a long tournament, that will matter. You can run 15, but you'll have much greater consistency with 22, and I think BUG Nic Fit has enough flexibility that you don't need to run an underpowered Force if you don't want to.
Seems like there are two versions of BUG-fit, base green and base blue. They're both probably valid but I'm not sure that what works for one will work for the other and vise-versa. GSZ would suck in my deck, for example.
heat_wave
11-22-2014, 05:17 PM
Hi there,
I'm gonna participate in a relatively big tournament in December, and though I feel uneasy going into an unknown meta without countermagic, UR Delver doesn't seem to suit me. I will take my trusty Punishing Fit, and HoneyT's success encouraged me even more. However, my gut and my experience tell me that losing to a random combo deck with PFit is very real. I've seen them going off turn-2 too often. Painter, ANT and others are really hard to beat. I've asked for advice here before and the help was invaluable. So, I'll post here my list first:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sarkhan the Mad
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Mountain
2 Forest
2 Swamp
I'm mostly fine with this mainboard, though there might be something I missed, like an Obstinate Baloth in place of 1 Deathrite Shaman. It's the sideboard that puzzles me. I have some cards that I would like to see there:
2 Blood Moon - I tried this out when I was afraid of Maverick getting Marit Lage on board, but the card is a beating against so many decks. If my opponent abuses some lands or his manabase is too greedy, this card shines. Definitely in.
2 Slaughter Games - rips the wincons out of Miracles or any combo opponent that has been too slow. Probably in.
1 Krosan Grip, 1 Ancient Grudge - when Reclamation Sage just isn't enough. Probably in.
3 Red Elemental Blast - there's never enough blue hate. I might consider a 2/1 split with Choke, though. Definitely in.
2 Elephant Grass - slows down aggressive decks, stops Griselbrand, Batterskull token, Marit Lage, makes Sneak Attack worse. Not sure if I need those, but they saved my life a few times. Probably out.
2 Thoughtseize - more discard where it is necessary. Definitely in.
2 Golgari Charm - random enchantment hate, TNN and Pyromancer tokens get wrecked, too. Probably in.
1 Dryad Militant - hoses Treasure Cruise, reanimator's Dread Return. Probably out.
Maybe I should pay more attention to combo matchups, and that's where I need help the most. Pithing Needle, Null Rod - what else can I add to try to improve those? I've also thought of Chains of Mephistopheles since it ruins their cantrips, but I'm not sure if I'll manage to get hold of the card.
uncletiggy
11-22-2014, 11:35 PM
Any opinions on a third equipment in the current meta for abzan fit? I am playing a sofi and bskull right now but after triming my curve and dropping some bombs to play the playset of seige rhino I cant decide between jitte sols and soff. They all have their merits and im leaning towarda jitte for the versitility but if someone is hellbent another is better id like to hear it
Jain_Mor
11-23-2014, 02:44 AM
Any opinions on a third equipment in the current meta for abzan fit? I am playing a sofi and bskull right now but after triming my curve and dropping some bombs to play the playset of seige rhino I cant decide between jitte sols and soff. They all have their merits and im leaning towarda jitte for the versitility but if someone is hellbent another is better id like to hear it
I'd play Jitte before SoFaI, so hope that helps :P
pfiremc13
11-23-2014, 12:22 PM
I have created a monstrosity.
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Lingering Souls
1 Voice of Resurgence
2 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Council's Judgment
1 Abzan Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Siege Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Living Wish
2 Gaea's Cradle
2 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
I wondered if I could create a nic fit deck using gaea's cradle to good effect. The idea is to use lingering souls and a high creature count to turn on gaea's cradle as an additional accelerant (usually for 2-3). The good thing about this is that lingering souls both powers gaea's cradle, giving you more mana, and gives you more things to do with your mana due to the flashback. Living wish gives consistent access to gaea's cradle as well as other stuff that's nice to have. I haven't tested it except goldfishing but it seems like it can develop powerful board states quickly, often killing by turn 6 unobstructed (siege rhino helps a lot with that). It seems like it could outgrind most fair decks pretty well. I probably have enough creatures to sac to diabolic intent. Voice of resurgence might be win-more, might be good, idk.
Another possible direction is to add more mana dorks and increase the curve, making the deck more explosive. I might even be able to add in a craterhoof in the main or side. Let me know what you guys think.
Nargoron
11-23-2014, 02:53 PM
I have created a monstrosity.
I wondered if I could create a nic fit deck using gaea's cradle to good effect. The idea is to use lingering souls and a high creature count to turn on gaea's cradle as an additional accelerant (usually for 2-3). The good thing about this is that lingering souls both powers gaea's cradle, giving you more mana, and gives you more things to do with your mana due to the flashback. Living wish gives consistent access to gaea's cradle as well as other stuff that's nice to have. I haven't tested it except goldfishing but it seems like it can develop powerful board states quickly, often killing by turn 6 unobstructed (siege rhino helps a lot with that). It seems like it could outgrind most fair decks pretty well. I probably have enough creatures to sac to diabolic intent. Voice of resurgence might be win-more, might be good, idk.
Another possible direction is to add more mana dorks and increase the curve, making the deck more explosive. I might even be able to add in a craterhoof in the main or side. Let me know what you guys think.
Hello,
In my opinion: this is Nic fit, not elves ...
i play with idea of using gaeas cradle too.. but nic fit strategy is survive start and kill opponend with big beasts latter..
in your deck there is nothing to help you survive- just 3 expensive removal spells, no sweaper...
Sweapers are really important, but kill your own small guys, which make gaeas cradle useless.
Zllig
11-23-2014, 03:39 PM
Can anyone give me a good explanation of why 2 Vet/4 Deathrite is the right numbers? I wanna play some Nic Fit soon and wanna run the right stuff. For reference I'm going to play some BUG list with Titania.
pfiremc13
11-23-2014, 04:09 PM
Hello,
In my opinion: this is Nic fit, not elves ...
i play with idea of using gaeas cradle too.. but nic fit strategy is survive start and kill opponend with big beasts latter..
in your deck there is nothing to help you survive- just 3 expensive removal spells, no sweaper...
Sweapers are really important, but kill your own small guys, which make gaeas cradle useless.
You are correct in that my list is less of a control list that traditional nic fit. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing. It aims to beat creature decks not by eliminating their board position but by developing its own. Yes, it has a different game plan than nic fit. However, that doesn't mean the gameplan is flawed.
bryanzoll
11-23-2014, 05:23 PM
You are correct in that my list is less of a control list that traditional nic fit. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing. It aims to beat creature decks not by eliminating their board position but by developing its own. Yes, it has a different game plan than nic fit. However, that doesn't mean the gameplan is flawed.
Yeah but you might as well take this list over to the junk forum because at this point your list is modifying the way a nic fit deck should function.
pfiremc13
11-23-2014, 05:32 PM
Yeah but you might as well take this list over to the junk forum because at this point your list is modifying the way a nic fit deck should function.
I disagree that the fact that it has a different gameplan from most other nic fit decks makes it not nic fit. The combo version of scapewish, for example, has a significantly different gameplan that traditional nic fit but still belongs in this thread. My deck is a ramp creature deck that uses therapy + explorer, that makes it nic fit imo.
pettdan
11-23-2014, 06:19 PM
I have created a monstrosity.
I will give my humble and faulty opinions below. I'm not saying it's better, but it's how I would start playtesting the deck and the reasoning I put behind.
With that said, the deck you posted certainly looks interesting. I may have to get me some cradles..
...
First a comment on the strategy of the deck, or how I interpret it. Life gain should be great right now, with the current meta. And Sylvan turns all that into card advantage vs slower decks. Sylvan is a beast. Souls + equipment is great. Both defensively and offensively. So we have two main themes of the deck that are both offensive and defensive and that synergize well. These strike me as what should be the main focuses of the deck. Or at least the ones I would try to build on. These two both discourage using Deed, and removing Deed allows for Cradle.
In my mind there should be no need to go higher in the mana curve than Sigarda and Batterskull. Both are very hard to remove and devastating together. Both can be tutored for. If you don't have a Batterskull equipped on a Sigarda that is what you should be using your mana for, not Baneslayer or Sun Titan. All flex slots should be GSZ and Stoneforge Mystic, not suboptimal offensive alternatives. The equipments and bullets provide plenty of cheaper alternatives that can be fetched with said tutors if mana is an issue. But that's just my very personal opinion.
I would try:
- Voice of Resurgence, Sun Titan, Baneslayer Angel
+ Sword of L&S, Sylvan Library, Dryad Arbor
With the arbor that's 23 lands, a bit high, but both Cradle and Arbor can occasionally be useless. Perhaps appropriate to try a utility land, plenty of colorless cards to be played. And actually the mana hungry utilily lands provide a good mana sink once the Cradles live up to expectations.
The removal suite seems a bit inefficient and there is not a single board wipe. At least some should be in the board. Also Living Wish is a flexible but unfortunately slightly inefficient card. I like it but I think an effective removal suite is more important before we can start playing flexible things.
Updating removal suite:
- (2) Council's Judgment, Abzan Charm
+ (3) Abrupt Decay
And replacing the Living Wishes
- (3) Living Wish, Diabolic Intent
+ GSZ, (2) Swords to Plowshares, Liliana of the Veil
I'd want 4 GSZ for consistency, anti-combo bullets, artifact-removal, lifegain and getting creatures online turn 1-2 to make Cradle useful and build explosive starts (that would be the t1 arbor). Considering that some popular decks play 4 bolts + 4 swords I think the 4th GSZ can be important in getting a creature into play so that Cradle doesn't become a dead land. No need for Intent really.
I added the Liliana to have something besides Gaddock Teeg and Cabal Therapy that is relevant vs combo game 1 (and still good vs other decks). I'd like to see one more copy, maybe for one of the extra lands.
Some cards I would like to see in the sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay (vs delver decks)
3+ Thoughtseize (vs combo)
2+ Liliana of the Veil (vs combo, control)
1 Qasali Priemage/Reclamation Sage (extra GSZ-able artifact removal)
X Zealous Persecution (vs anything with small creatures, good w souls)
X Krosan Grip / Council's Judgment
X Pithing Needle (Marit Lage, Wasteland, Sensei's Divining Top - yes we can! in this version)
[edit: sorry for the edit, rearranging a few sections]
pfiremc13
11-23-2014, 07:14 PM
In my mind there should be no need to go higher in the mana curve than Sigarda and Batterskull. Both are very hard to remove and devastating together. Both can be tutored for. If you don't have a Batterskull equipped on a Sigarda that is what you should be using your mana for, not Baneslayer or Sun Titan. All flex slots should be GSZ and Stoneforge Mystic, not suboptimal offensive alternatives. The equipments and bullets provide plenty of cheaper alternatives that can be fetched with said tutors if mana is an issue. But that's just my very personal opinion.
I disagree. Sun titan is a backup wincon -- council's judgment, baleful strix, etc are things. Some game your opponent will wipe your board and you need more high-cost threats to get there. It also enables very explosive cradle turns. Baneslayer can get moved to the board though.
I would try:
- Voice of Resurgence, Sun Titan, Baneslayer Angel
+ Sword of L&S, Sylvan Library, Dryad Arbor
With the arbor that's 23 lands, a bit high, but both Cradle and Arbor can occasionally be useless. Perhaps appropriate to try a utility land, plenty of colorless cards to be played. And actually the mana hungry utilily lands provide a good mana sink once the Cradles live up to expectations.
Instead of sun titan I can cut another land for an arbor. I worry about cutting creatures, though, since they are really important here. I'll see if I can find room for more elsewhere. I'm not sure about the SoLaS but I'll try it.
Living Wish is a flexible but unfortunately slightly inefficient card. I like it but I think an effective removal suite is more important before we can start playing flexible things.
Let's see where living wish is good.
Tempo -- not good, too slow and gets you behind.
Midrange -- good (depending on the list & board state, you can get rec sage, bsa, kitchen finks, phyrexian tower)
Control -- good (usually gets thrun or maybe tower)
Combo -- useful game 1, but often too slow. postboard you just wish (ha) you had more hate in your board instead of wish targets.
Verdict: This deck should already beat midrange and can compensate for control with additional sideboard cards. Its combo matchup needs work. Therefore, living wish gets cut.
Updating removal suite:
- (2) Council's Judgment, Abzan Charm
+ (3) Abrupt Decay
Agree
And replacing the Living Wishes
- (3) Living Wish, Diabolic Intent
+ GSZ, (2) Swords to Plowshares, Liliana of the Veil
I'd want 4 GSZ for consistency, anti-combo bullets, artifact-removal, lifegain and getting creatures online turn 1-2 to make Cradle useful and build explosive starts (that would be the t1 arbor). Considering that some popular decks play 4 bolts + 4 swords I think the 4th GSZ can be important in getting a creature into play so that Cradle doesn't become a dead land. No need for Intent really.
I like intent here for being versatile and generally good. I feel like kitchen finks and the 4th decay are better than swords because kitchen finks is a dude and decay is more versatile.
I added the Liliana to have something besides Gaddock Teeg and Cabal Therapy that is relevant vs combo game 1 (and still good vs other decks). I'd like to see one more copy, maybe for one of the extra lands.
I don't like maindeck lili very much. I don't think it's worth trying to beat combo in g1 with this deck; I'll just focus on it post-side. (that means moving the teeg to the board)
For what will replace teeg, I think I'll go back to the land idea. Gavony township is very useful I think due to how many creatures this deck can have on the field on the field.
That brings the changes to:
-1 Voice of Resurgence
-1 Baneslayer Angel
-2 Council's Judgment
-1 Abzan Charm
-3 Living Wish
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Savannah
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Dryad Arbor
+1 Sword of Light and Shadow
+4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Gavony Township
Additional manabase tweak for decay:
-1 Savannah
+1 Scrubland
For the sideboard:
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Council's Judgment
Yes I need that much combo hate.
Thanks a lot for the very detailed reply, you hit on a lot of the things I was unsure of/didn't consider very much.
pettdan
11-23-2014, 08:51 PM
@Pfiremc13: (Not getting much sleep, might as well..)
You're most welcome, glad you appreciate it. I've been thinking of souls+cradle too but failed at making a deck. Here are some thoughts and motivations on specific issues.
Sword of L&S offers:
- 0.75 extra cards drawn per turn with Sylvan
- important lifegain vs burn/delver strategies
- infinite blocking of skull/marit/grizzle with a souls token
- chained artifact/ench removal with a qasali
- siege rhino becomes an unswordable 6/7 trampler
- getting deathrite and explorer back (tend to die)
Also I thought of another possible approach on the land theme:
- sun titan, finks, (1) cradle
+ (2) knight of the reliquary, Karakas
For cradle tutoring, cheap beast, an out to show and tell, sigarda/gaddock-protection, and for the occasional dryad or township/vault. Vault would actually fit with the lifegain theme and deathtouch is nice with souls.
I'll try a second liliana in place of the third explorer i think. Good with souls too.
Looking forward to some playtesting :)
pfiremc13
11-23-2014, 08:58 PM
I thought of kotr too, that's another thing to test. He seems somewhat lackluster though--there's not always a land you want to get, even if you can make room for all the utility lands, and there big beater isn't really necessary. The tutor for cradle is nice though.
xatanael
11-24-2014, 03:18 AM
Hello everyone,
I am a Punishing-Jund-Nic Fit player usually, but the Abzan version attracts me... here is my decklist. I am of course open to any suggestion :smile:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 SWords to Plowshares
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Reclamation Sage (or Qasali Pridemage)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
2 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
Can anyone give me a good explanation of why 2 Vet/4 Deathrite is the right numbers? I wanna play some Nic Fit soon and wanna run the right stuff. For reference I'm going to play some BUG list with Titania.
I don't think that is correct. I did a bunch of testing to find the answer to this and found that DRS just isn't great in a deck with Pernicious Deed. Run them in the board if you want, but just run 4 veteran explorers in the main. This is a veteran explorer deck and cutting them is dumb.
bryanzoll
11-24-2014, 01:53 PM
I don't think that is correct. I did a bunch of testing to find the answer to this and found that DRS just isn't great in a deck with Pernicious Deed. Run them in the board if you want, but just run 4 veteran explorers in the main. This is a veteran explorer deck and cutting them is dumb.
Although this would also depend on the version of Nic Fit you are running. Generally Jund and BUG colored Nic Fit variants run the full set of Vets and no DRS, where junk colored lists will run more DRS and less explorers.
Although this would also depend on the version of Nic Fit you are running. Generally Jund and BUG colored Nic Fit variants run the full set of Vets and no DRS, where junk colored lists will run more DRS and less explorers.
Well usually you are looking for synergy. If DRS > no or very few pernicious. If Vet > 3 Pernicious.
The more I play BUG Nic Fit, the more I feel the hard control route is what we are looking for. Closing games should rely on Jace and/or on a very powerful spell as the one miracle has accessed to.
I found it in the Black delve spell: Empty the Pits.
This is all what we need:
- a very big spell which can end a game in one swing akin entreat the angels.
- instant (EOOT)
- can be abused with lots of mana and huge graveyard (which is surprisingly easy to have)
21 Lands (9 fetchs 8 basics 4 duals)
2 Jace
2 ETP
4 AD
3 Pernicious
2 flexible slots (@cmc1) currently Funeral charm for being good at every stage of the game.
4 Veteran
3 Baleful
2 Glen Elendra
1 Thrun
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 CT
Sideboard is not ready yet. But it has been a very longtime since I had so much fun playing a BUG version of Nic Fit.
Every thing is tuned to:
- grow your graveyard while tanking.
- reset/keep clear the boardstate/rape your opponent hand
- Land your wincon with protection. Be it a FOW or a Glen Elendra
This is only the beginning.
HoneyT
11-24-2014, 04:10 PM
Hi HoneyT, congrats again with your excellent finish. I was wondering why you did not include Reclamation Sage as part of your GSZ package, considering that you have a lone Krosan Grip in your SB. Thanks!
I've simply never found Reclamation Sage necessary. It's not a card I need in my deck game one and Krosan Grip is just a better card to have in post-board games where it's used for very specific things like killing a Batterskull or Top.
What's your combo match like with this build? Nicfit is always better against fair decks than against combo, but your build seems particularly skewed. I notice you only played against one combo deck in 15 rounds, and that was one of the two losses. You're low on disruption for game 1 (I know you have Liliana, but it's 3 mana and they choose what to discard). Did you test much against combo? Was there much combo in the room generally or was there a big bias towards creature decks?
No love for Phyrexian Tower? The ability to sac an Explorer to Tower on turn two is, in my view, one of the best reasons to play the deck. Turn two Thragtusk/Zenith for 4/Slaughter Games+Thoughtseize is no laughing matter, especially on the play. Only 1 of your 23 lands doesn't make coloured mana, so I'm sure you could get away with playing a Tower in this list. Plus tapping for colourless isn't terrible in a deck with 25 spells you can use colourless mana on, plus Top to sink it into later.
Golgari Charm straight in the main instead of in the side is a nice move. How did it work out for you?
Do you think all 4 Tops are necessary? The card is crazy good but I've never played more than 3 as I'm generally not spinning early anyway (it doesn't feel proactive enough).
1. I play against combo very frequently in my neck of the woods. I find this version has better combo game than any version but blue due to being able to play Liliana as additional disruption. The fact they choose what to discard is rarely relevant against the critiacal mass decks like Storm especially when I'm Therapying them as well. She also gives us an out to things like Reanimator or Show and Tell. Storm, Dredge, High Tide, Painter I find very favorable. Elves, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator are slightly unfavorable. And of course things like Belcher are unfavorable as well.
2. No. I used to play Tower and I hate it. This deck is less about turbo powering out something than it is about making sure I can cast all my spells. The deck is more color intensive than a lot of lists due to wanting to play Liliana and needing actual red sources for Fires. For every time Tower has been awesome, it's fucked me over way more times. I prefer mana stability to the potential for a T2 Thragtusk.
3. Golgari Charm was fine for that flex slot. Just a metagame call. I feel like a genius since I played against Death and Taxes three times. I expected a lot of Young Pyromancers, Elves, and Death and Taxes so I maindecked a copy. It's rarely totally dead as worse case scenario, I'm blowing up a Counterbalance or Sneak Attack or sometimes nuking Empty the Warrens tokens.
4. Yes. 4 Tops. No less. This is a hard control deck and it's the card I want to see most in my opening hand.
I was going to ask this as well. And any thoughts on Volrath's Stronghold? Only having Groves and Wolf Run seems like a little bit of missed opportunity for Prime Time.
Same thing. This deck can't afford tons of colorless lands and Wolf Run is the best. I wouldn't play Tower without Stronghold and vice versa. This deck is a slow, grindy deck. No need to make it slower AND more susceptible to graveyard hate by going for Tower+Stronghold when you can just fucking kill them with Wolf Run. You underestimate how fast a Primeval Titan kills somebody. It doesn't need to trigger more than once or twice for the game to be over.
Can anyone give me a good explanation of why 2 Vet/4 Deathrite is the right numbers? I wanna play some Nic Fit soon and wanna run the right stuff. For reference I'm going to play some BUG list with Titania.
It isn't.
EpicLevelCommoner
11-25-2014, 08:10 AM
Can anyone give me a good explanation of why 2 Vet/4 Deathrite is the right numbers? I wanna play some Nic Fit soon and wanna run the right stuff. For reference I'm going to play some BUG list with Titania.
To clarify on previous responses, it is indeed wrong to play less than 4 Vets in Nic Fit. However, due to the metagame consisting of evasive threats, non-destructive removal, and combo really makes setting off an explorer tricky.
Cant say for sure what the solution for this would be: perhaps adding more sacrifice effects would be useful? Right now most lists run at most 6 (tower, therapies, intent) but outside of those there really arent a lot of options.
Do you guys think that I can cut two lands (going to 20) for the 3rd and 4th Ponder? I find that when I lose, it's very often due to flooding, and the deck actually doesn't need that much mana. This would allow me to cut the miser's Thragtusk (which has been underwhelming) for a 3rd DTT and just overall raise the consistency of the deck which is my main goal at this point, since the list curbstomps everything with a good draw.
bryanzoll
11-25-2014, 09:23 AM
Do you guys think that I can cut two lands (going to 20) for the 3rd and 4th Ponder? I find that when I lose, it's very often due to flooding, and the deck actually doesn't need that much mana. This would allow me to cut the miser's Thragtusk (which has been underwhelming) for a 3rd DTT and just overall raise the consistency of the deck which is my main goal at this point, since the list curbstomps everything with a good draw.
Cliq post your list so I can take a look. But I think it would be extremely dangerous going to 20 lands in any version of Nic Fit. Hell, Miracles bare minimum land count is 21. How many games have you tested/played where you flooded out and on what turns usually compared to games where you haven't flooded?
Cliq post your list so I can take a look. But I think it would be extremely dangerous going to 20 lands in any version of Nic Fit. Hell, Miracles bare minimum land count is 21. How many games have you tested/played where you flooded out and on what turns usually compared to games where you haven't flooded?
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Notion Thief
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
2 Ponder
2 Swamp
1 Thragtusk
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer
Sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
I'll try 21 and see how it feels. It happened to me four games in a row last night in the midgame, but maybe it was just a bad run of luck.
bryanzoll
11-25-2014, 10:20 AM
I'll try 21 and see how it feels. It happened to me four games in a row last night in the midgame, but maybe it was just a bad run of luck.
Definitely chalk it up to bad luck especially during turns 4-8. The other thing to take into consideration is how many explorer triggers you were able to resolve turns 1-4. That will usually help thin out the deck as well so you have smoother draws in the mid game. My only concern with dropping your land count right now is that you need to be able to hit 6 mana by turn 5-6 for 2 important reasons...1) to play your 6 drops hopefully a turn early and 2) since you are running pernicious deeds, you NEED to be able to pop a deeds for 3 the turn you play it if needed if you are under pressure from a TNN.
In your list, I would also cut a fetch land or two and add another basic (either island or forest looking at your configuration) just to get about the 6 basic land count mark. I usually run a bare minimum of 7 basics to allow for multiple explorer triggers and to draw / fetch basics.
Also being a more control type deck, have you looked into sensei's divining top? That would also help you out significantly in smoothing out your draws for the mid-game.
EpicLevelCommoner
11-25-2014, 10:35 AM
New list with Titania, Rhino, Swagtusk, and Prime Time as bombs.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Toxic Deluge
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Karakas
Definitely chalk it up to bad luck especially during turns 4-8. The other thing to take into consideration is how many explorer triggers you were able to resolve turns 1-4. That will usually help thin out the deck as well so you have smoother draws in the mid game. My only concern with dropping your land count right now is that you need to be able to hit 6 mana by turn 5-6 for 2 important reasons...1) to play your 6 drops hopefully a turn early and 2) since you are running pernicious deeds, you NEED to be able to pop a deeds for 3 the turn you play it if needed if you are under pressure from a TNN.
In your list, I would also cut a fetch land or two and add another basic (either island or forest looking at your configuration) just to get about the 6 basic land count mark. I usually run a bare minimum of 7 basics to allow for multiple explorer triggers and to draw / fetch basics.
Also being a more control type deck, have you looked into sensei's divining top? That would also help you out significantly in smoothing out your draws for the mid-game.
I have 6 basics; I don't think I'd want the 7th. I am tempted to try a few Tops, though. Sylvan Library out of the SB is sickeningly good in the matchups where I can bring it in.
firebadmattgood
11-25-2014, 12:29 PM
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Baleful Strix
2 Bayou
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
1 Forest
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Notion Thief
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Polluted Delta
2 Ponder
2 Swamp
1 Thragtusk
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Veteran Explorer
Sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
I'll try 21 and see how it feels. It happened to me four games in a row last night in the midgame, but maybe it was just a bad run of luck.
-1 delta, +1 Creeping Tar Pit, imo.
pfiremc13
11-25-2014, 12:58 PM
New list with Titania, Rhino, Swagtusk, and Prime Time as bombs.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Toxic Deluge
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Karakas
NEEDS MOAR KOTR
I like the setup of this list, but 4 abrupt decay, 5 swords/path and 4 toxic deluge seems like too much. I would start with -1 path +1 wreck sage, and I think -1 deluge +1 library/council's judgment and -1 swords +1 kotr would probably also be good. If you could somehow find a way to squeeze in more fetches, that would be great as they fuel DRS, KOTR, and titania.
Nargoron
11-26-2014, 07:57 AM
Today iam gonna test to local event JUNK Nic Fit
Lands:
2x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
1x Dryad Arbor
Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Veteran Explorer
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Eternal Witness
1x Courser of Kruphix
1x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
Other:
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Swords to the Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Toxic Deluge
2x Lingering Souls
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
2x Sylvan Library
I am not sure with Qasali in main and Eternal witness, she is too slow :/ .
And sigarda like finisher.. i often rather go for rhine to get few lifes then 5/5 hexproof flyer
I appreciate your advice and suggestions
Nargo
Warden
11-26-2014, 08:37 AM
Not gonna lie, Titania, Protector of Argoth is powerful. I would run her in Junk lists for sure (especially since there's no burning wish --> scapeshift combo).
-1 delta, +1 Creeping Tar Pit, imo.
Don't hate it. Trying this and -2 Ponder +2 Top, will report back.
Ricardio
11-26-2014, 10:12 AM
Does anyone else play punishing nic fit?
I feel alone. Haha
HoneyT
11-26-2014, 12:20 PM
Does anyone else play punishing nic fit?
I feel alone. Haha
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28840-Punishment-A-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey-Report-(24th-with-Nic-Fit)
In other words, yes. Try reading the last several pages of the thread.
Ricardio
11-26-2014, 01:03 PM
I've read the whole thread. Saw your heartbreaking story and atm I'm not sure why more people aren't on punishing fire. It's incredible atm. Some of these build are moving from the core of nic fit to something diluted.
bryanzoll
11-26-2014, 01:25 PM
I've read the whole thread. Saw your heartbreaking story and atm I'm not sure why more people aren't on punishing fire. It's incredible atm. Some of these build are moving from the core of nic fit to something diluted.
Punishing Fit to me is a very controlish type deck, I prefer mid-range scapewish because if the combo game fails I have very powerful threats on the ground to be dealt with...if I ever fall behind on the ground I can combo people out for 36 damage usually.
I just prefer to have a way to win out of nowhere. It has won me several matches I wouldn't have been able to regularly.
Both Jund colored variants are very strong right now imo. It's just a matter of preference and play style.
uncletiggy
11-26-2014, 05:22 PM
Id like some more substance on titania. In which matchups is she better then the other five drops she competes with the fact that she dies to bolt worries me as well as the fact that her etb trigger can be blocked by deathrites.
bryanzoll
11-26-2014, 05:31 PM
I'm not sold on Titania at all and have strong feelings there just isn't a spot to fit her in.
Maybe it's just me, but there is just too much hype around her and no one is showing evidence of testing and how she actually performed.
Give me concrete evidence and maybe I'd be a little more open.
monaco.errante
11-27-2014, 05:40 AM
In other words, yes. Try reading the last several pages of the thread.
Hi! Really happy of results achieved! As I told you on the other topic I am using a similar list thus it will be interesting to have your feedback on sideboarding with different match-ups.
Additional question: was Massacre really effective? And what about toxic deluge?
I am thinking about bile blight but it might be less effective then TD.
Thanks!
EpicLevelCommoner
11-27-2014, 12:30 PM
Id like some more substance on titania. In which matchups is she better then the other five drops she competes with the fact that she dies to bolt worries me as well as the fact that her etb trigger can be blocked by deathrites.
I still need to do some testing, but the basis of why I include her in my list is that she's a GSZable bomb that provides both utility AND raw power, much like PrimeTime and SwagTusk. In fact, I'd say she would eventually replace Sigarda in Junk lists due to her ability to play around spot removal without neglecting offensive potential.
HoneyT
11-27-2014, 01:28 PM
Hi! Really happy of results achieved! As I told you on the other topic I am using a similar list thus it will be interesting to have your feedback on sideboarding with different match-ups.
Additional question: was Massacre really effective? And what about toxic deluge?
I am thinking about bile blight but it might be less effective then TD.
Thanks!
What are the specific matchups do you want sideboarding help for? I can't realistically post a guide for every viable deck in Legacy.
Toxic Deluge is the nut out of the board. Massacre was great as a metagame call. I expected a lot of Stoneforge/TNN decks and Death and Taxes while also being a card I'm happy to board in vs Elves and Delver. Also Bile Blight is garbage. You can do better in Legacy than a hard to cast, 2 mana spot removal spell.
RE: Titania-
I've been playing her a lot in Maverick and Lejay's Choke Stompy deck and she is incredibly powerful in the right circumstances. However, outside a build dedicated to her, I don't see her place in Nic Fit. She's very strong in decks with potential to abuse her with Wasteland and that can protect her such as the decks I mentioned earlier. Nic Fit does neither of those things. What Nic Fit wants in a late-game bomb is resiliency, something Titania doesn't have. She will not replace Sigarda or even Thragtusk.
monaco.errante
11-27-2014, 05:12 PM
What are the specific matchups do you want sideboarding help for? I can't realistically post a guide for every viable deck in Legacy.
Basically I'm interested on those that are common in my area: miracles (above all), elves, d&t, ur/uwr delver (with thousands of treasure cruise :tongue:) and stoneforge decks
Just to understand how you prepared your sb :wink:
Thanks!
P.S. my sideboard right now is
3 reb
2 surgical
3 carpet of flowers
1 garruk relentless
2 slaughter game
1 maelstrom pulse
3 thoughtseize
bryanzoll
11-28-2014, 08:32 AM
In fact, I'd say she would eventually replace Sigarda in Junk lists due to her ability to play around spot removal without neglecting offensive potential.
From a theory-crafting perspective this statement makes no freaking sense. How does a 5/3 that dies to lightning bolt have better evasion than a creature with hexproof and has flying?
Bobmans
11-28-2014, 08:48 AM
From a theory-crafting perspective this statement makes no freaking sense. How does a 5/3 that dies to lightning bolt have better evasion than a creature with hexproof and has flying?
Also dont forget thats Sigarda makes you pox/liliana proof.
I think i would never replace Sigarda for Titania, altough i can see myself running her/both in a Banza list, or other lists for that matter.
She seems to put some nice pressure and getting back utility land or even a fetch to get some token generation going.
Maybe something along with running Kotr and Loam might be pretty cool with Titania. I also want to abuse Wastelands, Bojuka Bog and such in some kind of list. Might slam together a list next week and see how it goes.
There has been some discussion, but i haven't bothered to read back yet. Currently i am more focussed on another deck im taking out for a spin coming weekend at a LGS.
EpicLevelCommoner
11-28-2014, 09:23 AM
From a theory-crafting perspective this statement makes no freaking sense. How does a 5/3 that dies to lightning bolt have better evasion than a creature with hexproof and has flying?
Also dont forget thats Sigarda makes you pox/liliana proof.
Unless they kill her in response to the etb trigger to return a fetch to the board AND you don't have a fetch already on board, you'll always get at least one 5/3 in response to her dying. And she also plays around Liliana and Smallpox as well, except you can just sacrifice the token instead of Titania.
The biggest difference between the two is whether they are defensive or offensive. Titania can go wide rather easily with multiple 5/3s, making it a really good option for offensive potential. Sigarda, on the other hand, can fly, which is better defensively than offensively in a meta full of Delvers, and doesn't worry about any kind of spot removal other than Council's Judgment.
bryanzoll
11-28-2014, 10:09 AM
Unless they kill her in response to the etb trigger to return a fetch to the board AND you don't have a fetch already on board, you'll always get at least one 5/3 in response to her dying. And she also plays around Liliana and Smallpox as well, except you can just sacrifice the token instead of Titania.
The biggest difference between the two is whether they are defensive or offensive. Titania can go wide rather easily with multiple 5/3s, making it a really good option for offensive potential. Sigarda, on the other hand, can fly, which is better defensively than offensively in a meta full of Delvers, and doesn't worry about any kind of spot removal other than Council's Judgment.
You do realize that your argument is horrid? Every player is going to use spot removal to get rid of titania with the EtB trigger on the stack. Secondly, you do realize a 5/3 dies to a flipped delver? On top of that, you also in order to get value out of titania (multiple 5/3s) you need to already have cards like fetchlands or wastelands in play. I feel that ensuring you have a perfect board state to abuse titantia will slow you down enough to where you will end up losing games because you aren't focused on winning and more so making an army of 5/3s.
As I said previously, stop talking about how great you think titania is and how it will replace all of our high CMC bombs. Put her in a deck, playtest the gauntlet with a minimum of 50 games, and then tell me how she performed. Until then, its absolutely pointless discussing something that hasn't been tested. Everyone that has posted how great titania is doesn't know that yet and I have answered by a counteracted theory-craft. Good luck in play testing with her, but its a card I feel will have minimum impact in any version of Nic Fit and would be a waste of time trying to incorporate.
Qweerios
11-28-2014, 07:10 PM
You do realize that your argument is horrid? Every player is going to use spot removal to get rid of titania with the EtB trigger on the stack. Secondly, you do realize a 5/3 dies to a flipped delver? On top of that, you also in order to get value out of titania (multiple 5/3s) you need to already have cards like fetchlands or wastelands in play. I feel that ensuring you have a perfect board state to abuse titantia will slow you down enough to where you will end up losing games because you aren't focused on winning and more so making an army of 5/3s.
As I said previously, stop talking about how great you think titania is and how it will replace all of our high CMC bombs. Put her in a deck, playtest the gauntlet with a minimum of 50 games, and then tell me how she performed. Until then, its absolutely pointless discussing something that hasn't been tested. Everyone that has posted how great titania is doesn't know that yet and I have answered by a counteracted theory-craft. Good luck in play testing with her, but its a card I feel will have minimum impact in any version of Nic Fit and would be a waste of time trying to incorporate.
As much as you wish to use reason as a basis for communication, you are arguing with the innovator of the recent "Whale Fit". If the combination of Palinchron and Recurring Nightmare instilled fear in your heart, wait until you see what havoc Titania will wreak in his latest list.
HoneyT
11-28-2014, 09:51 PM
As much as you wish to use reason as a basis for communication, you are arguing with the innovator of the recent "Whale Fit". If the combination of Palinchron and Recurring Nightmare instilled fear in your heart, wait until you see what havoc Titania will wreak in his latest list.
This may be the greatest thing I've ever read. I've been wanting to do that for so long.
RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
11-28-2014, 10:13 PM
See my signature -- and this http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?2894-Great-Source-Quotes&p=713457&highlight=#post713457
EpicLevelCommoner
11-29-2014, 11:01 AM
Cool: so y'all are attempting to invalidate what my argument by bringing up shit I said well over a year ago, back when I obviously didn't know what I was talking about?
Guess it doesn't matter though: whatever I say will just be dismissed, and I honestly don't care anymore. The one archetype where there is still room for so much innovation, yet no one wants to explore new options.
uncletiggy
11-29-2014, 12:26 PM
I dont personally care what you said a year ago. Im just curious how titania is any better then rampaging baloths? Its slower to make tokens it is removed by bolt and karakas for only one less mana. If you want to innovate go for it but innovate with a purpose. That purpose has to be solving a problem not polishing a turd. Titania is not fundamentally good in a red meta. Try your list with baloth if you want to explore making tokens with land drops. It certainly better with titan and explorer and you dont have to play safekeeper. Id also cut a deluge and play two nissas over the deluge and the safe keeper. Tweek the lands and tune the board to beat combo.
EpicLevelCommoner
11-29-2014, 03:02 PM
I dont personally care what you said a year ago. Im just curious how titania is any better then rampaging baloths? Its slower to make tokens it is removed by bolt and karakas for only one less mana. If you want to innovate go for it but innovate with a purpose. That purpose has to be solving a problem not polishing a turd. Titania is not fundamentally good in a red meta. Try your list with baloth if you want to explore making tokens with land drops. It certainly better with titan and explorer and you dont have to play safekeeper. Id also cut a deluge and play two nissas over the deluge and the safe keeper. Tweek the lands and tune the board to beat combo.
The purpose is giving Nic Fit decks a method of closing the game out quickly once they've established control. Only Scapewish has something even remotely like that in the form of Valakut, and that requires sacrificing your ability to fight combo to run the Jund color scheme.
Titania, as long as there is a fetch on the board or in your grave when she etbs, always gets at least 10 power on the board before she's removed, and if she is, that's another one of your bombs that isn't getting removed or your face that isn't getting burned. That's a two turn clock otherwise, much like Grave Titan+tokens or PrimeTime+Twin Treetop Village that have been explored in the past.
Also, 3GG vs 4GG is a really big thing for nic fit, just as 3 CMC vs 4CMC is a thing for most other Legacy decks. Titania also doesn't have to wait to generate a significant amount of power, with or without Safekeeper (as an aside, Safekeeper is there to protect Teeg in certain matchups first, not to make an army with Titania).
bruizar
11-29-2014, 06:17 PM
I just wanted to add that I think the general attitude towards titania is too skeptical compared to my testing. Maybe it has a place in nic fit, and maybe not, i dont know. But what i do know is that cranking out 10 power on turn 2 with an orcish lumberjack, while doubling as.a replacement for crucible of worlds, is pretty good. Sure you can bolt both of them, that means 2 cards less and 6 damage u don't have to worry about.
HoneyT
11-29-2014, 06:22 PM
I've had several people ask about sideboarding with Punishing Nic Fit. Instead of replying to everybody individually, I'm just going to post some general guidelines here.
First off, we'll use my GP NJ list for reference:
// Deck: Punishing Nic Fit (60)
// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Golgari Charm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
Let's dive in to some of the more requested matchups:
Miracles:
I consider this matchup pretty favorable, though you have to play very fast. Winning game one is the most important part of the matchup as you're very unlikely to finish three full games. You have all the tools necessary to defeat them. Punishing Fires keep Jace in check and sit on Deeds for Entreat. You should almost never use a Deed for anything else in this matchup. Decays keep Counterbalance off the table so your Fires ping away uninterrupted and use Therapy to force through your threat/Deed. Avoid setting off Explorers if at all possible. They're great at chipping away their life total game one but that's about it. You have far more hard to deal with threats than they have answers for so you'll eventually stick something to kill them with (usually a Thrun). Kessig Wolf run is also fantastic as it makes them need an answer for literally every creature you play.
Post sideboard you get to remove a lot of garbage and bring in some huge gamebreakers. Out come most Explorers, Ooze, EWit and in come Slaughter Games, REBs, and K-Grip. I usually trim down on the PFires as well unless they're the creature heavy version with Cliques, Venser, and Snapcasters. The game plan is much the same post board, except you have the capability of locking them out of the game entirely. Slaughter Games get rid of their few win cons and that's that. Just beware of some spicy ones some Miracles players have access to. Try not to get blown out by random Keranos and Baneslayers and you should be fine.
Elves:
Doesn't look so bad on paper, pretty tough in actual gameplay as they're a very resilient little deck. You have to disrupt their hand AND the board. One or the other is simply not good enough. The trick is some good Therapies on their big cards (NO, Glimpse) and nuking their board with Deed. If you can maneuver the game to that state before you die, you stand a very good chance of winning. Punishing Fires will keep their board in check from that point and a fatty can play cleanup.
Post board things get a bit better with access to more sweepers, hand disruption, and Slaughter Games. You can trim a couple Explorers, a Liliana because she's very slow (I like keeping a couple to deal with possible Progenitus), Pulse for the same reason of being slow, Thrun, etc.. Gameplan remains the same, you just have a lot more ways to get the job done.
Death and Taxes:
A very favorable matchup, slow/grindy creature decks are the kind I designed this deck to prey on. Your decks strategy is inherently strong against them, you have Explorers to combat their mana denial, Therapy for their bigger threats (Stoneforge into BSkull), and PFires and Deeds for all of their dudes.
Things only get better post board as you get to bring in additional sweepers and a K-Grip. They bring in things like RIP so it's important to trim on some of the less necessary graveyard reliant cards like Witness and Ooze. Not much else to say, it's a very good matchup.
UR/UWR Delver, UWR Stoneblade etc:
Again, very strong matchups that this deck preys upon. None of them are capable of beating an active PFire on a reasonable boardstate and high enough life total. Deed, Liliana, any fatty etc. etc. All things they can't beat. People are afraid of Treasure Cruise but there's really no need to be. They get to draw three cards that don't do anything in the matchup. Three cards that our deck invalidates. Big whoop.
REBs and additional sweepers post board. GGs.
Those were the matchups that were specifically requested. If anybody has any other matchups they need help with, just ask.
pfiremc13
11-30-2014, 11:06 AM
I just wanted to add that I think the general attitude towards titania is too skeptical compared to my testing. Maybe it has a place in nic fit, and maybe not, i dont know. But what i do know is that cranking out 10 power on turn 2 with an orcish lumberjack, while doubling as.a replacement for crucible of worlds, is pretty good. Sure you can bolt both of them, that means 2 cards less and 6 damage u don't have to worry about.
I also had the idea of using of using orcish lumberjack with Titania. I abandoned it though, because I felt like it would be too much of a blowout if Titania got countered. Feel free to test it out though.
The place where I would start with Titania is as a combo finish in something like junk fit with sylvan safekeeper to protect her. You may just be able to run her with just kotr, so that you can activate kotr, search up a fetch, and crack the fetch in response to a removal spell.
pfiremc13
11-30-2014, 11:08 AM
I just wanted to add that I think the general attitude towards titania is too skeptical compared to my testing. Maybe it has a place in nic fit, and maybe not, i dont know. But what i do know is that cranking out 10 power on turn 2 with an orcish lumberjack, while doubling as.a replacement for crucible of worlds, is pretty good. Sure you can bolt both of them, that means 2 cards less and 6 damage u don't have to worry about.
I also had the idea of using of using orcish lumberjack with Titania. I abandoned it though, because I felt like it would be too much of a blowout if Titania got countered. Feel free to test it out though.
The place where I would start with Titania is as a combo finish in something like junk fit with sylvan safekeeper to protect her. You may just be able to run her with just kotr, so that you can activate kotr, search up a fetch, and crack the fetch in response to a removal spell. I'm not sure it's a better combo that say thune + feeder, but it's nice that oth creatures ca be fetched with gsz.
bruizar
11-30-2014, 12:23 PM
I'd like to add that another thing you can do with Titania is establish a wasteland lock with karakas.
Nargoron
11-30-2014, 12:28 PM
I'd like to add that another thing you can do with Titania is establish a wasteland lock with karakas.
that's nice, but it's another deck, not nic fit... in nic fit you definetly don't want play wasteland and slow your manacurve.
Surfkatt
11-30-2014, 11:22 PM
I will write a report when I am less tired but I won my local IQ
http://mtgpulse.com/event/18566#261705
MD.Ghost
12-01-2014, 02:47 AM
@Surfkatt: Gratz!
@HoneyT/Punishing Fit: Why Maelstrom Pulse Maindeck? Punishing Fit has so many Removal and i remember Pulse was mainly for Walkers (not so much in the current meta and we still have the PFire-Engine) and sometimes Batterskull. I thought about Reclamation Sage here, with Zenith it is less random, can block and attack and seems overall better in a heavy Removal Deck (3x Deed, 3x Decay, 3x PFire, 3x Liliana and i also use 1 Garruk Relentless).
My signature includes my current Punishing Fire build - it contains HoneyT's Maindeck Pulse (but as i mentioned, i thought about a switch) but a different Sideboard. Carpet of Flowers are my 2 Flex slots here, which can also be Grip, Toxic Deluge etc.
bryanzoll
12-01-2014, 09:35 AM
@Surfkatt: Congratulations. I was looking over the top 8 in your tournament and was just wondering who you defeated in the quarter finals.
Team ScapeWish +1
Surfkatt
12-01-2014, 09:44 AM
@Surfkatt: Congratulations. I was looking over the top 8 in your tournament and was just wondering who you defeated in the quarter finals.
Team ScapeWish +1
I played against Harlie with Death and Taxes. Not quite a bye since he is a good player but pretty close. Especially since he has only 1 cataclysm.
bryanzoll
12-01-2014, 11:04 AM
I played against Harlie with Death and Taxes. Not quite a bye since he is a good player but pretty close. Especially since he has only 1 cataclysm.
Nice win.
Against U/R delver did you land huntmaster at all and how did it compare to baloth? (if you didn't land baloth a theory-crafted response works too)
ZimAshe
12-01-2014, 01:34 PM
Hello fellow Nic Fitters! It has been a long time for me since I have been active in any discussions on this board. I have a renewed interest and faith in the deck and modified my old Junk list (I refuse to call it Abzan). I play tested this list against a friend of mine who was on UWR Stoneblade. We played 6 game ones alternating who was on the play. I am curious to know what other people feel could improve match ups that are out there in the current meta. I will provide the list and some of my playtest notes below.
Main Deck (60)
Creatures (15)
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
Spells (23)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
Lands (22)
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Scrubland
2 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
In my play testing one of the things I felt was that Liliana is really bad right now. Almost borderline unplayable. There was almost no situation where I felt advantaged after having resolved her. With so many decks able to cast cheap threats her "sac a dude" mode just becomes a three mana sorcery speed removal spell because there are almost always creatures left over to take her out, or she just eats a bolt. My friend was deathly afraid of Deed and I always liked having it against delver and stoneblade decks. I went down to 3 Veteran Explorer from the original 4. drawing him late game was less than exciting. after our play test sessions I want to make the following changes.
out:
1 Veteran Explorer
3 Liliana
In:
1 Siege Rhino
1 Fleecemane Lion
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Deathrite Shaman
Rhino was awesome every game I got him into play and love just knowing he was in the deck. I wanted to cut another Explorer for the reasons outlined above and DRS adds another early game play and a potential win condition. I have been wanting to try out Fleecemane Lion for a while. I don't know how good it will be but I like have another early threat to apply pressure and can turn into another hexproof monster that dodges removal and stonewalls all the x/1's and x/2's in the format. Deluge is a concession to the fact that deed is sometimes too slow and can be played around when on the field. Another avenue I am considering is taking out Grave Titan and lowering the curve by adding a fourth Rhino, the other option to add another five drop int eh form of Baneslayer Angel.
One of my problem areas currently is the sideboard. I am not sure what to put in it. I currently have the following but am open to changing it.
Sideboard (15)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Council's Judgment
Surfkatt
12-01-2014, 04:42 PM
Alright, as posted before, I ended up winning my local IQ the other day with Scapewish. Given that it took place in New Jersey it was a decent turnout (45 players) and most of them where reasonably experienced with Legacy which is a good thing (or so I thought). Normally experienced players make good deck choices like Delver, Miracles, or death and taxes which makes any Nic Fit deck a great choice. Unfortunately this was not completely true which I found out later, the hard way. For now, lets talk about the list:
Scapewish
Main Deck:
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sarkhan the Mad
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
1 Dryad Militant
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
3 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
1 Scapeshift
1 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vraska the Unseen
JK, the deck is mostly stock. I will point out a couple cards that are a little out there.
1 Sarkhan the Mad: I wanted a noncreature threat that had some inherent synergy with the deck. Turning random dorks into dragons is sweet, drawing cards for free is sweet (Top), and living through deed is sweet. Unfortunately he ended up doing nothing. Not because he had I died with him in my hand but because he kept getting forced. People would stop, read him a few times, and snap force him. Still have no idea if he is good or not.
1 Wooded foothills: I used to run 4 catacombs but I saw people trying a 3-1 split out so I figured hey, why not? It was probably the worst card in my deck all weekend. Just straight terrible. One would think it fetches duels all the same so why does it matter? I lost a game and almost lost another due to my inability to get a basic swamp.
1 Vraska the Unseen: I love me some 5 mana walkers as you can tell. This one I feel is actually pretty good. Its like an extra maelstrom pulse that can win the game. I brought it in a lot but never got to cast it.
1 Dryad Militant: This card was the real MVP of my Sunday. Holy crap this card was absurd for me. It won me 4 games I had 0 business winning. We will get to that later.
Those are the cards that I thought were worth mentioning. If anybody has any other questions about the list let me know. Onto the games:
Round 1 - Bug Delver
Game 1 : Always great to start against a friend right? I saw the pairing round one and was not very happy. It was my buddy Joe playing BUG Delver, which is not a terrible matchup mind you, but I know he is a skilled player and I have no element of surprise. This game was unexciting. 3 wastes and a Goyf back by force sealed the deal. Could not stick a black mana due to the foothills.
Game 2: Also unexciting. He was stuck on 2 lands and kept tapping out for goyfs. I ramped with explorers, cabaled his forces, and scaped him.
Game 3: I keep an awkward hand with 2 pyroblasts, lands, and a witness after a mull to 6. He seizes my thoughts and extracts my blasts. I draw an ooze to fight his deathrite, he decays it. I Ewit my ooze back and keep his deathrite down. He has just enough to cruise and then proceeds to stifle me out as he beats me with a flipped delver.
0-1
Round 2 - Death and Taxes
Game 1: I honestly can never remember games against death and taxes. Not to be rude to Death and Taxes players because I do think the deck is very good but the games are very rarely close. I blind take a with cabal after he leads with vial. His hand is nonsense (Brimaz, port, flicker, lands) and I ramp a bit with explorer (taking Brimaz) and that’s that. Wish into scape seals it.
Game 2: I drew 2 pernicious deeds after cabaling his revoker.
1-1
One thing I will note that is slightly annoying about the matchup is that I normally have to combo off 8 lands because they don’t take damage/Batterskull.
Round 3 - Jeskai Stoneblade
Game 1: Another friend where I lose the advantage of surprise. Although the matchup is so positive it didn’t matter. He has a double pyro draw with force backup. He forces my deed hits me for 8 but at this point his hand is running low. I Wish for massacre, wipe his board and pass. He cruises and passes. I run huntmaster into a swords. He still doesn’t find pressure and scoops to a prime time.
Game 2: I cabal his force, ramp with vet. He stones for a batterskull, I decay his mystic. We go back and forth for a bit, he cruises, I jam threats. Eventually I slam a prime time when he has 0 cards in hand and is at 18 life. All he has is a Jitte with 2 counters, a mystic, and a meddling mage on pyroblast. Prime time brings it home again.
2-1
Round 4 - Oops all spells
Game 1: He kills me turn 1 on the play. Yikes. I start thinking about going home and what to do with the rest of my day.
Game 2: I mull to 5 but the 5 is (Dryad, 2x Thoughtseize, Baloth, Taiga). Turn 1 millitant gg. He plays it out given he has 1 slaughter pact but he does not draw it.
Game 3: He mulls to 4 and I cabal on dark ritual into GSZ into dryad. So glad I chose that as a 1 of.
3-1
Round 5 - Miracles
Game 1: I saw him playing earlier so I kept a SUPER greedy hand (GSZ,GSZ,Scape,Scape, lands) and got rewarded, I ran him out of counters and that was that. He never had a chance to establish a threat other than a lone clique. I Lead with green sun’s until I was sure he had nothing and shifted him.
Game 2: This game was… odd. He boarded into a humility plan and had that card on turn 4. I just kept playing 1/1 baloths and tusks until I forced him to entreat for 4 1/1’s. We spent 25 minutes posturing and trading 1/1’s. While we did this I built up my hand disruption to the point where I could decay his top to force a draw and cabal away all the countermagic. Unfortunately he had a brainstorm and “Nothing.” Else. After a few more turns I felt pressured enough to go for it again. He had 1 card in hand and a top. I double therapy away the Jace in hand and go for it when he had 4 lands untapped. He snap drew with top, slammed down snapcaster, and then facepalmed.
4-1
Round 6 - Oops all spells
Game 1: One might think I could draw in at this point. That one did not know that I had the worst breakers and got paired down into a miserable matchup. I won the die roll, called wrong with therapy and promptly died.
Game 2: Mulled to 5 again, had the turn 1 militant. #skillgame. My opponent played it out, summoning a couple 2/3 fliers and milling me a bit. And this is where things got weird. There were 9 people with 12 or more points meaning weird stuff for breakers. Given I was the only one paired down I had to play but so did the other 2 low 12 pointers or one of them would draw themselves out. They did not play locking out all 12 pointers from making it. Seeing this my opponent scooped to me given he could not top eight. We played out game 3 just for fun.
Game 3: He mulled to 5 and passed turn. I Cast therapy on dark ritual (hit) and GSZ into militant. GG
5-1
1st place in standings
Quarterfinals
Harlie with Death and Taxes
Game 1: I don’t know why but I just cannot remember games versus Death and taxes. I know I kept a great hand with lands, decay, deed and wish. I think I just sat on a deed while he had a stoneforge out and bought enough time to scapeshift him. A veteran explorer was also involved.
Game 2: He had mom into thalia into stoneforge waste you land. I still topdecked a clasm, wiped all but the thalia which got saved by mom. Next turn I decayed thalia, let him bounce it, then therpied it away.
A few turns later I combed him.
Semifinals
Mark with Punishing Maverick
Game 1 : He played deathrite into stoneforge swords my explorer. I massacred his board and stranded his batterskull. He ran a few dorks out, I ramped a bit and scaped him for the win.
Game 2: He cast deathrite into knight and I got stuck on black meaning I did not have an answer to it. I died to a rather large token.
Game 3: I forget exactly what happened this game, I was starting to get really tired. I remember cabaling away a knight after he mulled to 5. I clasmed a deathrite and a Teeg and he killed my ooze with double punishing fire. He didn’t really draw enough threatening things and I eventually scaped him.
Finals
Ryan with U/R Delver
We ended up splitting and playing for the invite. The matchup is really good for me but I did not want to chance anything
Game 1: This game was super weird. I kept a hand light on removal with double therapy and nice threats. He kept a hand of cantrips and a pyromancer. I stripped his force and then stripped his pyro. By turn 4 he played his first threat in young pyro. I decayed it and he made the mistake of attacking into my vet. He wanted the lands out of his deck and the shuffle I assume. I killed him shortly after.
Game 2: He cantrips on the 1st turn again and then fork bolts my vet. I grind him out with deeds and therapy and kill him with scapeshift. Not much to say. His draws were fine but just not the kind of draws he needs in the matchup.
VICTORY!!!
Overall I was super happy with my deck and play. I might change a Chandra, Pyromaster out for the sarkhan but that’s the only maindeck change I want to make right now. Ewitness was never good and neither was wood elves but they have a little more time before they hit the chopping block. With the sideboard though, I have to say, I really don’t like pyroblast in this deck. I get its purpose but it just never was what I wanted it to do. I never really wanted to draw it and always boarded it in because I felt I had to. We will see. I might cut them for another baloth (burn/delver/lily decks) and some surgical’s(Combo/Miracles?).
Thanks for Reading (Or quickly scanning like I would :wink: )
PS. Sorry for the word vomit. I started typing and stopped checking if what I was writing made sense or if what I was writing was too much. Whoops. Might check later to see if it makes any sense.
bhsman
12-02-2014, 12:06 AM
Scapewish
As someone who has not read the entire thread, is there an in-depth explanation of how this variation runs?
Surfkatt
12-02-2014, 01:02 AM
As someone who has not read the entire thread, is there an in-depth explanation of how this variation runs?
If you go to the first page of this thread and scroll down you will see a lovely description by Arianrhod.
Bobmans
12-02-2014, 08:21 AM
Normally experienced players make good deck choices like Delver, Miracles, or death and taxes which makes any Nic Fit deck a great choice. Unfortunately this was not completely true which I found out later, the hard way.
1 Sarkhan the Mad: I wanted a noncreature threat that had some inherent synergy with the deck. Turning random dorks into dragons is sweet, drawing cards for free is sweet (Top), and living through deed is sweet. Unfortunately he ended up doing nothing. Not because he had I died with him in my hand but because he kept getting forced. People would stop, read him a few times, and snap force him. Still have no idea if he is good or not.
1 Vraska the Unseen: I love me some 5 mana walkers as you can tell. This one I feel is actually pretty good. Its like an extra maelstrom pulse that can win the game. I brought it in a lot but never got to cast it.
VICTORY!!!
Congratulations with your fine results. I suppose now is the time to try or play pet decks since the pressure of trying to get results of a big tournament is off.
There are some questions for you based on your choices and i am looking on to see if i want to maybe try it in a PFire list.
Sarkhan, i really see the appeal to turn Veterans into 5/5 Flyers while also gaining card advantage thru a SDT. You never resolved one, so that's done quick. But there might also be a place for him in a PFire list. Against what match-ups do you think this would be the walker of choice?
Vraska, i guess the same story, but a different angle. What match-ups you think this one would be most solid?
Yesterday i played a version of the PFire build maindecking 2 Domri Rade and a Counrser of Kruphix. (went 3-0 in matches, also have never lost a match with PFire NicFit in my local magic group. Perhaps time to take it to a tournament).
The Domri Rade was meh. It didn't suck, but it had no immidiate impact on the board. Courser on the other hand was awesome when i had it. There are a lot of little synergies between this one and some number of cards in this deck i liked.
Also i ran 2 Huntmasters of the Fells and it felt awesome. (0 Thrun)
Concerning the 3 Veteran Explorer and 4 Deathrite Shaman split. I really like having a set of DRS as another way of getting mana/ grave hate, life gain or just grinding out your opponent. Sometimes DRS feels "soft", but i really like it's flexibility. 3 Veterans never feel to few and often times i would just GSZ for one if i want to ramp. DRS just puts some pressure on the opponent which also has possitive effect. Also sometimes you have more veterans (effects) then basic lands to fetch, so 3 is the right number for me.
Last Reclamation Sage was never a card i wanted to dig up. Might want to replace it, but not sure for what. Scavenging Ooze is an option, but with 4 DRS not really required.
bhsman
12-02-2014, 12:16 PM
If you go to the first page of this thread and scroll down you will see a lovely description by Arianrhod.
Haha, I found that almost immediately after my post. :eek: Thank you.
ironclad8690
12-02-2014, 12:44 PM
Played Abzan variant last night at my local weekly tourny. Beat 4 color cascade and jeskai stoneblade but lost to death and taxes (only had non basics game 1 and he drew many wastelands + thalia to keep me off spells, game 2 he gets 3 ports and locks me out of casting anything). I think the d&t result was an anomaly, game 2 I had 20 cards or so that I saw with top and none were green sources, which if I had found would have been able to flashback cabal on a vet ex and ramp past port mattering. Still, 4-2 in games isn't bad. Completely slaughtered the other two decks largely in part to my new foil Siege Rhino.
Here is my latest GBW list for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-12-14-rhino-nic-fit/
EpicLevelCommoner
12-02-2014, 02:46 PM
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Toxic Deluge
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
Nargoron
12-03-2014, 07:19 AM
Played Abzan variant last night at my local weekly tourny. Beat 4 color cascade and jeskai stoneblade but lost to death and taxes (only had non basics game 1 and he drew many wastelands + thalia to keep me off spells, game 2 he gets 3 ports and locks me out of casting anything). I think the d&t result was an anomaly, game 2 I had 20 cards or so that I saw with top and none were green sources, which if I had found would have been able to flashback cabal on a vet ex and ramp past port mattering. Still, 4-2 in games isn't bad. Completely slaughtered the other two decks largely in part to my new foil Siege Rhino.
Here is my latest GBW list for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-12-14-rhino-nic-fit/
Why is your biggest bomb primeval titan? he is just 6/6 trample .... + lands are irelevant in your decklist in my oppinion. Isnt Grave titan or another boneslayer better?
EpicLevelCommoner
12-03-2014, 07:28 AM
Played Abzan variant last night at my local weekly tourny. Beat 4 color cascade and jeskai stoneblade but lost to death and taxes (only had non basics game 1 and he drew many wastelands + thalia to keep me off spells, game 2 he gets 3 ports and locks me out of casting anything). I think the d&t result was an anomaly, game 2 I had 20 cards or so that I saw with top and none were green sources, which if I had found would have been able to flashback cabal on a vet ex and ramp past port mattering. Still, 4-2 in games isn't bad. Completely slaughtered the other two decks largely in part to my new foil Siege Rhino.
Here is my latest GBW list for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-12-14-rhino-nic-fit/
Youre a bit heavy on basics and duals and light on Fetches imho. Also, since the only land tutor you have is PrimeTime, Id shave either a basic forest or a plains for another Karakas (will help in fighting thalia i suspect). Other than that, the list looks solid: just a quick question though.
Have you considered Deluge over Deed in the main? Does seem like youd benefit more from pseudo one sided wrath than manland/artifact/enchantment destruction.
Paranoid__Android
12-03-2014, 10:50 AM
I'm trying to build up a G/B/W version of the Nic Fit to fight tempo/combo meta. Main problem are Merfolks and Jund. Combo decks are graveyard based, so I think that sideboard will be dedicated to them. First version of the deck was G/B, and it was really good. Since C.Priest came, I've realised that he is really good to be maindecked. But, since I don't have the money for it...proxy is good enough. Tournaments where I play allow 5 of them.
So...first version of Abzan Nic Fit:
22 Lands:
7x fetches (3 Verdant/2 Marsh/2 Windswept)
5x duals (2 Bayou/2 Scrubland/Savannah)
7x basic lands (3 forest/2 swamp/2 plains)
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Karakas
17x spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Diabolic Intent
3x Swords to Plowshares
??x creatures: (so far)
4x V. Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Massacre Wurm
2x Kitchen Finks
...
So far, this is it. I don't know how to build the creature base so far. So, could you help me a bit? :D
https://deckbox.org/sets/766621 <- This is list of the cards I have, so you can see from what cards I can build this deck. And 5 proxies of any cards in the format!
ironclad8690
12-03-2014, 11:32 AM
Why is your biggest bomb primeval titan? he is just 6/6 trample .... + lands are irelevant in your decklist in my oppinion. Isnt Grave titan or another boneslayer better?
I use him to fetch out the two towers. I like having a gsz'able fatty at 6, and he is pretty good at ending games quickly. I might try something else out in his slot though.
Youre a bit heavy on basics and duals and light on Fetches imho. Also, since the only land tutor you have is PrimeTime, Id shave either a basic forest or a plains for another Karakas (will help in fighting thalia i suspect). Other than that, the list looks solid: just a quick question though.
Have you considered Deluge over Deed in the main? Does seem like youd benefit more from pseudo one sided wrath than manland/artifact/enchantment destruction.
I tried deluge main, but I like the insurance deed gives you against not only miracles, but random decks that flood the board with permanents like aether vial decks, enchantress, tezzeret, stompy variants, and lands to a lesser extent (mox diamond and exploration). Deluge is a little quicker in the creature matchups though, which may lead me back to it. As far as karakas #2, I wish I had a 2nd one. It would definitely help vs thalia. I might shave expensinve removal like maelstrom for something a little cheaper like golgari charm.
EpicLevelCommoner
12-03-2014, 12:30 PM
I'm trying to build up a G/B/W version of the Nic Fit to fight tempo/combo meta. Main problem are Merfolks and Jund. Combo decks are graveyard based, so I think that sideboard will be dedicated to them. First version of the deck was G/B, and it was really good. Since C.Priest came, I've realised that he is really good to be maindecked. But, since I don't have the money for it...proxy is good enough. Tournaments where I play allow 5 of them.
So...first version of Abzan Nic Fit:
22 Lands:
7x fetches (3 Verdant/2 Marsh/2 Windswept)
5x duals (2 Bayou/2 Scrubland/Savannah)
7x basic lands (3 forest/2 swamp/2 plains)
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Karakas
17x spells:
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Diabolic Intent
3x Swords to Plowshares
??x creatures: (so far)
4x V. Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Massacre Wurm
2x Kitchen Finks
...
So far, this is it. I don't know how to build the creature base so far. So, could you help me a bit? :D
https://deckbox.org/sets/766621 <- This is list of the cards I have, so you can see from what cards I can build this deck. And 5 proxies of any cards in the format!
Based on what you have, and what your meta consists of as you describe here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11720-What-Should-I-Play-In-My-Metagame&p=853331&viewfull=1#post853331), I recommend the following:
61 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary (to tutor your singleton Karakas and Maze of Ith Game 1)
1 Obstinate Baloth (highly suggest Siege Rhino over this)
1 Thragtusk (not running this with the Two Towers is a cardinal sin of Nic Fit in my experience :P)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top (if using Toxic Deluge, highly suggest 2 Sylvan Library over this instead)
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed (highly suggest 3 Toxic Deluge over this in your meta)
1 Dryad Arbor (personal preference and definitely the 61st Card if ya want to trim down to 60)
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats (lightly suggest 2 Windswept Heath over this: I prefer green fetches to black fetches)
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
15 Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest (if you can't get it, use 2 Rest in Peace instead)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (for Belcher and possibly Jund)
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 "Sweepers" (for Jund, Merfolk, and combo token swarms)
sdematt
12-03-2014, 03:00 PM
I'll be trying out "Lord of the Rings - The Two Towers" at the next weekly. Elves, Elephants, and Towers oh my!
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thragtusk
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Massacre
-Matt
Surfkatt
12-03-2014, 03:11 PM
Nice win.
Against U/R delver did you land huntmaster at all and how did it compare to baloth? (if you didn't land baloth a theory-crafted response works too)
I did not end up landing one. In theory it should be VERY hard for them to beat if it resolves. The best thing they can do to it is bolt + Forked Bolt and even that is a 2 for 1.
Congratulations with your fine results. I suppose now is the time to try or play pet decks since the pressure of trying to get results of a big tournament is off.
There are some questions for you based on your choices and i am looking on to see if i want to maybe try it in a PFire list.
Sarkhan, i really see the appeal to turn Veterans into 5/5 Flyers while also gaining card advantage thru a SDT. You never resolved one, so that's done quick. But there might also be a place for him in a PFire list. Against what match-ups do you think this would be the walker of choice?
Vraska, i guess the same story, but a different angle. What match-ups you think this one would be most solid?
.
Sarkhan seems really good versus Miracles/Jund/other grindy slow decks. As crappy as it is it also "deals" with an Emrakul/Griselbrand. A resolved Sarkhan versus Miracles seems very hard for them to beat. Dragons outclass Angels and the card advantage gained from his 0 should be able to overwhelm them.
Vraska a seems good where Sarkhan is good for the most part but she also seems great against stoneblade decks and D&T. Gives more outs to swords/naked Batterskulls. She of course is not nearly impactfull as Sarkhan is but I feel like she does enough of what this deck would want to warrant a spot.
Stomping Grounds G&H
12-03-2014, 03:27 PM
Actually, Surfkatt, the tournament is in Hatboro, PA ;)
Here is the top 8 of the event that Surfkatt won. http://mtgpulse.com/event/18566#261705
edit: As for your sideboard, I think you should do: -3 pyroblast, +2 thoughtseize, +1 duress. The plan is to just overload on hate for the combo matchup. What do you think?
-Brett
Surfkatt
12-03-2014, 03:37 PM
Actually, Surfkatt, the tournament is in Hatboro, PA ;)
Here is the top 8 of the event that Surfkatt won. http://mtgpulse.com/event/18566#261705
edit: As for your sideboard, I think you should do: -3 pyroblast, +2 thoughtseize, +1 duress. The plan is to just overload on hate for the combo matchup. What do you think?
-Brett
I figured it was you Brett. I think that's what I will try at Legacy this week. Where did I say the event took place?
Stomping Grounds G&H
12-03-2014, 03:55 PM
Your post said it took place in New Jersey, a closer description would be "just outside of Philadelphia".
Strassbaw
12-03-2014, 04:00 PM
Great games Nick (coming from Mark the Maverick player in the Semifinals.)
I wanted to discuss the option of Toxic Deluge from the board. This card was an Ace in our matchup as you could cast a wish and still kill Gadock teeg in play with the Toxic Deluge option. If teeg is a threat in a local meta, I suggest many other use Toxic Deluge to combat that. Innocent blood would not have been enough as I had multiple dorks on board. I like the list that you played and I wish you luck in your next events. Great tournament report.
Surfkatt
12-03-2014, 04:13 PM
Your post said it took place in New Jersey, a closer description would be "just outside of Philadelphia".
Close enough :tongue:
Great games Nick (coming from Mark the Maverick player in the Semifinals.)
I wanted to discuss the option of Toxic Deluge from the board. This card was an Ace in our matchup as you could cast a wish and still kill Gadock teeg in play with the Toxic Deluge option. If teeg is a threat in a local meta, I suggest many other use Toxic Deluge to combat that. Innocent blood would not have been enough as I had multiple dorks on board. I like the list that you played and I wish you luck in your next events. Great tournament report.
Yeah, the deluge was awesome for me. Deed does the same thing but it is slower and non-tutorable. Thanks man :smile: !
Paranoid__Android
12-03-2014, 04:14 PM
Based on what you have, and what your meta consists of as you describe here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11720-What-Should-I-Play-In-My-Metagame&p=853331&viewfull=1#post853331), I recommend the following:
61 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of the Reliquary (to tutor your singleton Karakas and Maze of Ith Game 1)
1 Obstinate Baloth (highly suggest Siege Rhino over this)
1 Thragtusk (not running this with the Two Towers is a cardinal sin of Nic Fit in my experience :P)
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top (if using Toxic Deluge, highly suggest 2 Sylvan Library over this instead)
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed (highly suggest 3 Toxic Deluge over this in your meta)
1 Dryad Arbor (personal preference and definitely the 61st Card if ya want to trim down to 60)
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats (lightly suggest 2 Windswept Heath over this: I prefer green fetches to black fetches)
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
15 Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Containment Priest (if you can't get it, use 2 Rest in Peace instead)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (for Belcher and possibly Jund)
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 "Sweepers" (for Jund, Merfolk, and combo token swarms)
Siege Rhinos, C. Priests and Toxic Deluges are my next investment. For sure! Then the decklist will be updated with those cards. In side, ''sweepers'' like Engineered Plague/Explosives...?
EpicLevelCommoner
12-04-2014, 06:37 AM
Siege Rhinos, C. Priests and Toxic Deluges are my next investment. For sure! Then the decklist will be updated with those cards. In side, ''sweepers'' like Engineered Plague/Explosives...?
In your Elfless meta, Id go with something like Deed here (or Deluge, depends on which one you main). Kinda strange for me though: I usually have some number of Thalia here for the combo matchups.
Anyone else have any suggestions?
EDIT: Also, if you can afford it, Thoughtseize might serve you better than IoK in the side.
Actually, Surfkatt, the tournament is in Hatboro, PA ;)
Here is the top 8 of the event that Surfkatt won. http://mtgpulse.com/event/18566#261705
edit: As for your sideboard, I think you should do: -3 pyroblast, +2 thoughtseize, +1 duress. The plan is to just overload on hate for the combo matchup. What do you think?
-Brett
Access to black sources is an equation no one (among Scapeshifter) has ever solved.
It is easier to have access to red souces or green sources.
Discard is a proactive way to fight combo decks.
But you really need some reactive play to come along your proactive ones or you are bound to die to a strong top deck.
Few contenders are a 2 cards combo decks (S&T), some do not care about discard (ANT & PiF plan) and some are packing some strong discard hate (Omnishow & Leylines).
@Surfkatt: Gratz !
I'm glad someone tried out the lone Militant in the SB.
I've been a very strong advocate for it since a couple of months (in multiple Nic Fit shells).
Surfkatt
12-04-2014, 11:21 AM
Access to black sources is an equation no one (among Scapeshifter) has ever solved.
It is easier to have access to red souces or green sources.
Discard is a proactive way to fight combo decks.
But you really need some reactive play to come along your proactive ones or you are bound to die to a strong top deck.
Few contenders are a 2 cards combo decks (S&T), some do not care about discard (ANT & PiF plan) and some are packing some strong discard hate (Omnishow & Leylines).
@Surfkatt: Gratz !
I'm glad someone tried out the lone Militant in the SB.
I've been a very strong advocate for it since a couple of months (in multiple Nic Fit shells).
Thanks! The Lone Militant was very very strong as I said. Really gives some game against some of out bad matchups. I will admit that black is not the easiest color to get turn one but I also feel like pyroblast is not very strong. Out of all my games I never really ever wanted a pyroblast/ had the mana up to cast pyroblast. Sure the dream scenario is to counter a cruise but alot of the time that means you did not deploy a threat the turn previous. This deck is very mana hungry.
Given that the deck can get screwed on black very easy maybe something free like surgical extraction would be the way to go.
jbone2016
12-04-2014, 01:56 PM
Access to black sources is an equation no one (among Scapeshifter) has ever solved.
It is easier to have access to red souces or green sources.
Discard is a proactive way to fight combo decks.
But you really need some reactive play to come along your proactive ones or you are bound to die to a strong top deck.
Few contenders are a 2 cards combo decks (S&T), some do not care about discard (ANT & PiF plan) and some are packing some strong discard hate (Omnishow & Leylines).
@Surfkatt: Gratz !
I'm glad someone tried out the lone Militant in the SB.
I've been a very strong advocate for it since a couple of months (in multiple Nic Fit shells).
I've had some success with the militant in the board. Funny as hell vs dredge and somewhat decent with the cruise decks. In addition to the one Drs main.
Paranoid__Android
12-04-2014, 05:22 PM
In your Elfless meta, Id go with something like Deed here (or Deluge, depends on which one you main). Kinda strange for me though: I usually have some number of Thalia here for the combo matchups.
Anyone else have any suggestions?
EDIT: Also, if you can afford it, Thoughtseize might serve you better than IoK in the side.
Then Deed/Toxic Deluge singleton. And 1 (??) Thalia?
I have 3x Tseizes in my collection. :D
EDIT: Tested against Monoblack Obliterator and classic Bant tempo. Both games won 2:0 with this build from the cards I own. And one huge missplay against Bant G1. If I ever doubt what my opponent has in his hand, always name Brainstorm with Cabal if you go first. Haha! :D (he had 2x in openning hand)
SevenInTheQueue
12-04-2014, 11:58 PM
Going to be taking Punishing Fit to SCG Portland this weekend. I'm a little worried about Marit Lage though. Any suggestions?
Also recently broke my SCooze record last Sunday, with a 19/19 Ooze racing a Griselbrand owned by my dredge opponent.
MD.Ghost
12-05-2014, 01:47 AM
Going to be taking Punishing Fit to SCG Portland this weekend. I'm a little worried about Marit Lage though. Any suggestions?
Also recently broke my SCooze record last Sunday, with a 19/19 Ooze racing a Griselbrand owned by my dredge opponent.
I use 2x Pithing Needle, 1x Karakas and 3x Surgical Extraction (and 2x Slaughter Games) as my sideboard choices against "Dark Depths-Loam-Decks".
Ricardio
12-05-2014, 09:42 AM
I use 2x Pithing Needle, 1x Karakas and 3x Surgical Extraction (and 2x Slaughter Games) as my sideboard choices against "Dark Depths-Loam-Decks".
Brood mate and lilly are your friends in this matchup. Slaughter can't name lands.
Going to be taking Punishing Fit to SCG Portland this weekend. I'm a little worried about Marit Lage though. Any suggestions?
Also recently broke my SCooze record last Sunday, with a 19/19 Ooze racing a Griselbrand owned by my dredge opponent.
I'm using 2 Diabolic edict MD vs S&T and Marit lage strategy.
My list is in the first page of the primer. It is tuned for a very mixed field (Fair/Unfair) as I don't like banking my ass on G2 & G3 against unfair decks.
When I was playing Scape, I was MDecking a karakas. I guess this is another good option to go along with Primeval Titan. 2 birds one stone: as just adding a karakas doubles up your chance to have either a Titan or a Karakas in hand.
However, Karakas is unreliable against Marit as those decks tend to pack a lot of wasteland.
PS: I'm usually very unlucky when playing fair decks as I always meet the 4 or 5 guys playing combo at my LGS...
bryanzoll
12-05-2014, 11:56 AM
Conclusion on testing with Dualcaster Mage:
I have play tested with Dualcaster mage in ScapeWish (playing it as a mid-range deck 1st, combo as an additional wincon) extensively enough (around 50 matches) against a delver / elves / miracle / storm gauntlet and have came to the conclusion that it just isn't worth having.
Pros:
Copying spells such as Treasure Cruise
Acts as a counterspell against Force of Will allowing you to push through spells
Is good at removing a creature (via copying spell) and acting as a chump blocker
Cons:
Very situational based
Used as a reactive spell instead of being a proactive spell
Need to leave mana open at end of turn
I never really found a situation where DCM would have made an impact on a game-state
I never wanted a DCM until turn 5 at a minimum, it sucked drawing one in the opening hand and not being able to use it for anything
I have changed out the 2 DCMs for an Eternal Witness and Scavenging Ooze and increased my GSZ count back to 4. I am having more consistency with the deck now and it plays better (for the style I play with ScapeWish).
*Most broken thing I was able to do with DCM: Opponents TC on the stack, flash in DCM, copy TC, draw 3, counter opponents TC with newly drawn pyroblast.
If anyone has any other results with testing DCM, let me know so we can compare.
So it's been 3 weeks since I am working on a BUG Nic Fit shell.
Here is where I am at the moment:
Sultai Control Fit by Ralf
Main Deck
20 lands
4 Swamp
2 Island
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
12 creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor
2 Sensei's divining top
3 Pernicious deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Empty the Pits
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Sideboard:
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thragtusk
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Flusterstorm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Summary:
This is a hard control deck akin Miracle. Don't expect to win fast. Every match is a grind. But you have access to powerful tools to either clog the board or to keep it empty.
You can win from nowhere in oneshot by resolving an Empty the Pits but usually you'll be killing with a bunch of 1/1, a Glen Elendra or a Jace.
Remember 20 cards in the yards = 10 zombie token at INSTANT SPEED.
This deck was built to abuse the former (akin Entreat in Miracle). I used to playing 2 but you only have just one shot:
- It resolves, you win
- It does not, you won't likely be able to recast one.
Choice's explanations
Lands
Well I've stretched it up to the maximum. 19 lands might be doable but you'll have to shave a baleful strix for another ponder and you'll also have to replace a basic by another dual to keep the magical numbers:
14 blue sources to be able to cast a blue cantrip by T1
14 black sources to be able to cast a DRS/Cabal Therapy by T1
13 green sources to be able to cast a Veteran/Abrupt Decay by T2
The particularity of this deck is to always go after basics. You will often need to play Pernicious Deed at least for 3 no later than Turn 6. 4 swamps are to:
- lure your opponent about the deck you are playing
- be able to reliably cast Empty the Pits.
Creatures
4 Veteran -> the core
3 Deathrite shaman -> the swiss army knife. You'll use far more often the "2 ping you" or "2 gain life" than the mana ability. Not to mention his ability to make you play around soft counters when it matters. I've played without Shaman for a while (because of Pernicious Deed) but the life gain ability & the ability to work around soft counters & grave strategies are a must given the current meta.
3 Baleful Strix -> Clogs the board and helps to advance the game into the midgame, requires answer from your opponent. Also good vs huge demon. Can be a therapy fodder when it has to. Replaces himself. Not so hot against red decks but at least it is a bolt or kind of a shock/forked you won't take in the face.
2 Glen Elendra Archmage -> Another flying "undying" blocker. MVP of multiple matchups whenever you get to resolve her. Her ability to protect any of your big spells (be it your game ending spell or a sweeper) or to have the "last word" against any game ending spell your opponent might want to play (entreat, bolt, Jace etc...) is far beyond imagining. Virtual CA with wings, she will be your main beater.
Planewalker
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor -> His major contender is Liliana of the Veil. I had a hard time to choose between the two of them. Jace makes up 2 more blue cards to be pitched to Force of Will (17 blue cards including Jace, 15 was definitely on the low end side). We all know about Jace & Liliana issues anyway. One can kill not the other, both are good to keep a board clear when facing only one threat. Cabal therapy + Jace works. Liliana's +1 ability can be painful until you have a sensei...
The major drawback is being blue with all the blue hate in the format at the moment.
However, having tested both a lot, I do think Jace, still, has a very light edge over Liliana. I won't lie saying that casting Jace is harder than casting Liliana. Higher risk, higher reward.
Digging/Fixing Suits
4 Brainstorm -> the core
2 Ponder -> I'm still pondering (pun intended) whether we should play ponder n°3 instead of Baleful Strix n°3. The ability to dig for answer with such a control deck is REAL as well as the ability to fix some low land keepable hands. I have died to unanswered delver a good share amount of time (or to whatever situation) a baleful strix could not answer. It is also inherently half a zombie token as soon as you've played it. Still, I have not found this equation's clue. One can also argue that with this 1-of sideboard strategy, ponder should be the way to go...
2 Sensei's divining top -> Akin miracles, you will need to hide your spell or to look, fetch, look again, fetch again, look again etc...
Nuking the world
3 Pernicious Deed -> Well we play Nic Fit for nuking the world. Unfortunately, this deck is usually not about making any advantage of it. Sure, you will somehow catch average players by 2/3 for 1 them. But usually, you'll nuke 1 for 1 or 2 for 2 etc... I haven't found any better replacement for Pernicious Deed as it also acts as a preventive way for being entreated etc...
3 Abrupt Decay -> The 4th is in the sideboard. Staple nothing more to say.
1 Maelstrom Pulse -> Catch all.
2 Golgari charm -> Special hate for token strategy, 1/1 swarm (Elfes), tricks with Strix (pun intended). Faster than toxic deluge, can hit enchantments (Eidolon, Counterbalance, Sneak attack etc...) and deals with THE annoyance named "True Name Nemesis" (pun intended)
I do apologize for the wall of text.
I hope some of you will "commit" into this deck (or even give any valuable feedbacks) as I really believe the hard control route is the way to make BUG Nic Fit a 1,5 tier deck.
I'm pretty sure their are a lot of roads to be explored (such as other sideboard options or main deck options aka Cunning Wish)
Moving forward I will explore the Cunning wish option to free some space in the MD among:
- 1 Empty the Pits
- 1 Force of Will
- 1 Golgari charm
etc...
Last word: if you are not a "do nothing" type of player, don't pick up this deck.
Thanks for reading.
Stomping Grounds G&H
12-05-2014, 06:49 PM
What about sideboarding Sphere of Resistance against the noninteractive decks?
SevenInTheQueue
12-08-2014, 01:31 AM
Came 25th in SCG Portland. Deck was gas. Will post my list/report when I get home
The Crow's Eye
12-08-2014, 01:45 AM
Question about BRG Punishing Nic Fit:
Is Liliana something I should go ahead and pick up if I plan to play the deck?
In looking for a second mana source, DRS is the correct choice due to its other abilities in addition to tapping for mana (I run 8 fetches)?
SevenInTheQueue
12-08-2014, 01:50 AM
Question about BRG Punishing Nic Fit:
Is Liliana something I should go ahead and pick up if I plan to play the deck?
In looking for a second mana source, DRS is the correct choice due to its other abilities in addition to tapping for mana (I run 8 fetches)?
I like having Lilianas, although they tend to come out a lot in the current Young Pyromancer meta. DRS is a nice fun-of to snag off of GSZ. Helps chip away when the board is clogged, and the life gain is spicy.
HoneyT
12-08-2014, 08:32 AM
Question about BRG Punishing Nic Fit:
Is Liliana something I should go ahead and pick up if I plan to play the deck?
In looking for a second mana source, DRS is the correct choice due to its other abilities in addition to tapping for mana (I run 8 fetches)?
Yes to your first question. And DRS is fine if you want another mana dude.
PhyrexianLibrarian
12-08-2014, 01:43 PM
If anyone listened to the latest Everyday Eternal podcast, they discussed a Junk Nic Fit build that one of the hosts has been running lately:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Council's Judgement
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Dryad Arbor
22 land
4 Siege Rhino seems crazy, but it fits in with the Recurring Nightmare idea to just loop two of them back and forth. I'd rather loop one along with a Thragtusk to get the token as well. They also discuss the use of Sun Titan as another card-recurring engine, but I'm not sure I like the idea of running a creature that you can't find with GSZ.
ironclad8690
12-08-2014, 01:58 PM
Yes, I have been running a very similar list to Matt lately. I was inspired by Kevin's Spike Feeder / Archangel of Thune deck that he took to eternal weekend. Playing Siege Rhino in legacy is so much fun, it just takes everyone by surprise. My biggest struggle with the deck has been mana denial surprisingly, with combo not being too much of an issue because of therapy and maindeck teeg. The deck has an amazing UWR matchup which is one of the biggest draws to it. UR can go under you pretty easily, but only 12 post goes over the top of you. Most of the other fair matchups in the format feel pretty biased in your favor save the occasional delver nut.
Sun titan was awesome when I played it, but I have since cut it for Primeval Titan to fetch out Phyrexian Tower, Volrath's Stronghold, and/or Karakas depending on the situation. I also like having a zenith target at 6. The two towers give you a scary amount of inevitability with less wasteland in the format.
PhyrexianLibrarian
12-08-2014, 02:04 PM
Yes, I have been running a very similar list to Matt lately. I was inspired by Kevin's Spike Feeder / Archangel of Thune deck that he took to eternal weekend. Playing Siege Rhino in legacy is so much fun, it just takes everyone by surprise. My biggest struggle with the deck has been mana denial surprisingly, with combo not being too much of an issue because of therapy and maindeck teeg. The deck has an amazing UWR matchup which is one of the biggest draws to it. UR can go under you pretty easily, but only 12 post goes over the top of you. Most of the other fair matchups in the format feel pretty biased in your favor save the occasional delver nut.
Sun titan was awesome when I played it, but I have since cut it for Primeval Titan to fetch out Phyrexian Tower, Volrath's Stronghold, and/or Karakas depending on the situation. I also like having a zenith target at 6. The two towers give you a scary amount of inevitability with less wasteland in the format.
What does Gaddock Teeg hit in your area that is worth turning off your own GSZs? I'm actually running Qasali Pridemage right now because I don't have a whole lot of combo decks in my meta, but I do have a lot of Delver & artifact-reliant fair decks.
ironclad8690
12-08-2014, 03:50 PM
I need to be prepared for storm, omnitell, sneak attack (mono red version too), tin fins, miracles, uwr blade (turn off DTT, TC, Jace, EE, Supreme Verdict, humility etc), elves, and high tide. He comes out vs most fair decks. Worst case he flashes back therapy or can be sacced to phyrexian tower or recurring nightmare, so I havent really had a problem getting rid of him if I have had to.
sdematt
12-08-2014, 10:18 PM
I've changed my build a tad, but I've really been enjoying it. In this meta, Rhino isn't bad at all.
-Matt
SevenInTheQueue
12-08-2014, 11:33 PM
Quick little SCG Portland report. First time bringing this particular list to an event (outside of a small weekly prior), but I was feeling confident I understood many of the interactions it could offer. I played a slight variation of HoneyT's Punishing Fit list to 6-2-1, and would confidently register it for the upcoming invitational. I won't go in-depth, as I was running on fumes all day and my notes are lacking in detail. I'll mention what I sideboarded for the match-ups, and would love any and all commentary, as I'm still not sure my decisions were correct.
Maindeck (60):
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Huntmaster of the Fels
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
1x Golgari Charm
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
3x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Mountain
Sideboard (15):
3x Surgical Extraction (West Coast loves their graveyard strategies)
3x Thoughtseize
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Slaughter Games
1x Krosan Grip
1x Massacre
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Golgari Charm
R1 - "OP" - from "Whoops" - Burn:
This entire match was a blur. SCG has pushed Legacy to a 9:00am start, and I'm not exactly a morning person. My opponent was quite friendly though, and very enthusiastic about their choice of 8th edition Mountains.
G1: I get 3'd repeatedly, back-to-back Searing Blazes knocking off my DRS and Scooze. I'm dead before I can stick anything to pull me back into the game.
I'm looking to cut more clunky cards for quicker ways of interacting/stabilizing. There's a small part of me that cringes when bringing in Thoughtseize, but I rather lose two (on my own accord) and gain some information, than take a Fireblast to the dome.
-3 Pernicious Deed : Too slow
-1 Primeval Titan: ^
+3 Thoughtseize: Stated above
+1 Golgari Charm: Regeneration mode, and acts as an answer to Eidolon and Vortex
G2: Goblin Guide smacks me several times before my opponent decides to 3 me a bunch. I dealt with the pesky 2/2, and after a Therapy on Blaze reveals that the coast is clear, I begin to deploy Scooze and DRS. Unfortunately, runner-runner Blazes/Bloods knock out my dorks, and I never hit my 4th land for the Huntmaster or GSZ (for Finks) in hand.
0-1 (0-2)
R2 - Anthony from Portland - Dead-Guy Ale:
G1: We both mulligan our 7's, but seem content with our fresh hands. I lead with an Explorer, which immediately gets the look-over. He plays out a SFM fetching up Batterskull. I therapy away the Skull, seeing a Bob and a couple of STP's. The flashback strips his hand of the removal spells, and ramps me towards 3rd turn Huntmaster. He Disfigures the lumberjack, but I burn out his Bob in return. My wolf beats down until I find an Eternal Witness for Huntmaster. Huntmaster is deployed a second time, and his hand becomes cluttered with thoughtseizes/removal spells while creatures kill him.
In creature heavy match-ups, I decided to cut down on my # of Tops when boarding. I found that I was using my most/all my mana each turn, and the Grove-Lock often negates the need for an immediate threat or alternative removal spell.
-2 Sensei's Divining Top: Unnecessary at 4x
-1 Golgari Charm: -1/-1 seemed to be only relevant mode.
+1 Krosan Grip: SFM and potential Pithing Needles
+1 Massacre: Creatures + Plains
+1 Toxic Deluge: Creatures
G2: Very similar to G1, except a bit longer. I got to flip Huntmaster for the first time (which was awesome), and while his Wastelands took care of my Groves, I still had no problem removing anything that clogged up the board.
1-1 (2-2)
R3 - Josh from Portland(?) - BUG Control:
I knew he was on some type of BUG list, but I didn't know his threat/removal configuration. I did however overhear him bad-mouthing Nic Fit the day before, so I was ready to get some revenge.
G1: We durdle around for the first couple of turns, trading hand-attack spells. His remove my Deed and Liliana, while I strip him of a counter-magic. His Brainstorms had hidden multiple True-Names, which solidify my thoughts surrounding his prior choices. I manage to stick a Top, and swing the life totals in my favor through various GSZ bullets, but I end up bricking on my spins as the TNN count stacks up to an impressive 3.
I didn't see many permanents worth targeting, and I'm really just looking to either stick a threat or grind away TNN. Worth noting I also saw Creeping Tar Pit in the match-up.
-3 Abrupt Decay: Nothing good to hit.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
There's a chance I should have brought in Thoughtseizes, but I feel like he can recover from them quite easily.
G2: This game takes forever, but I have pretty solid control of the board. There's a small period of time where he has attacked my mana with Wasteland to the point where neither of us can cast any spells of merit. During this time I have a Liliana in play however, which makes any creatures he deploys rather underwhelming. Once we start slinging cards again, his 4x Treasure Cruises don't find him anything too relevant, and I manage to overwhelm him with threats. Wolf Run did a hell of a job this game.
G3: We have 4 or 5 minutes left on the clock, and I don't believe I can possibly win in that time. I keep a rather annoying hand, and force a draw. Very unexciting, and somewhat frustrating was I believe that it would have been in both our interest to concede earlier in G2. I apologize to everyone that I couldn't truly avenge our archetype.
R4 - Aaron from Seattle - UW/r Stoneblade:
Into the briny depths of the draw-bracket I go.
G1: He starts off with a very common series of plays (Tundra + Ponder), but his lack of pressure leads me to believe his is either on Miracles, Gold Digger or some Trueblade variant. This causes me to hold onto my Therapy looking to dig up some more information before making a play. Deciding to finally make a move, I name FoW, but in hindsight I believe Brainstorm would have been a better call. Sure enough, I brick but he reveals a Brainstorm, Dig Through Time, some counter-magic, a TNN and a Clique. I proceed to play like a ham sandwich for the rest of the game, as 3/1's beat away at me, and I'm unable to stick a Deed or find a Charm.
I don't believe I boarded in this match very well.
-1 Kitchen Finks: Vs. slower list w/ STP
-1 Golgari Charm: Still not sure. Massacre fills the sweeper role, while being easier to cast around Spell Pierce.
-1 Maelstrom Pulse: Expensive. Grip and REB just seem stronger.
-1 Green Sun's Zenith: Somewhat expensive, and not as eager to stick a creature.
-3 Abrupt Decay: Also unsure. Plenty of other ways to remove creatures.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+2 Thoughtseize: Need to clear the path for Deed/Threats. Didn't feel all 3 were necessary though.
+1 Krosan Grip: His various Equipment.
+1 Massacre: Plains + Creatures
G2: I rip apart his hand, and manage to keep him from developing anything of note. I see Containment Priests, so I take a mental note to be cautious when GSZ'ing. It takes a while for me to close out the game, but a combination of Thrun, Huntmaster and Wolf-Run end up taking us to G3.
G3: I start off ripping at his hand again, seeing an Academy Ruins. It ends up causing quite a fuss, as I never end up having an opportune time to search out a Scavenging Ooze to get rid of Batterskull permanently. I get knocked down incredibly low, but end up stabilizing between Thragtusk and Punishing Fire. While we were both playing at a reasonable pace, time is called and we go to turns. I had lethal on board, 4 cards in hand and approximately 14 lands in play. Instead of the draw, Aaron decides to concede. I thanked him repeatedly, and wished him the best with his time in Portland.
R5 - Daniel from Vancouver, WA - Shardless BUG:
I thought this deck had gone the way of the dodo bird.
G1: He does typical Shardless things, as I start to strip away at his hand. I have the ol' double explorer, double therapy hand. Good times. Great times! I draws a bunch of cards off of Visions + Baleful Strixs, and manages to stick a Jace. I attempt a GSZ for 4, and that gets quickly Force'd. He has to pitch another Force to do so however, clearing the way for a follow-up Thragtusk. Feeling comfortable behind his fall of artifact creatures and Goyfs, he decides to tick Jace up to 10, instead of dealing with the big beast. This lets me play and pop Deed for 3, giving me a clean 7 for one. He does some more things involving Liliana and Jace, but Mr. Troll Face joins the party, and he brought Wolf-Run. For the record, he had 14 cards left in his library at the end of this game.
-1 Golgari Charm: Helps with the idiot bird, but not much else.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: I couldn't imagine her being all that great in this match.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+1 Toxic Deluge: He likes to clog the board.
G2: This game was a bit of a blur. I snagged 2x Force of Will off of a Therapy, and Pulse took out 2x DRS. Kitchen Finks caused a bit of havoc, Red Blast took care of a Jace, and PFire lock cleaned up shop.
R6 - Barbed Lightning from The Source - Death & Taxes
Got to sit across from a fellow sourcer. After that awkward pause of meeting someone whom you've only ever interacted with on the internet, things loosen up and we have a very friendly match. We both acknowledged how bad this match-up is for DNT, and sure and shoot it was incredibly lopsided.
G1: He has a standard DNT start of Mom + Thalia + Revokers (3 of them). I produced an opening that led him to believe I was on Punishing Jund (DRS + Scavenging Ooze, with a Grove as a mana source). I have this juicy Golgari Charm in my hand, but Revoker on DRS stops me from getting to the necessary 3 mana for the spicy blow-out. I eventually get there, and my dorks end up taking over the game.
-2 Sensei's Divining Top: As mentioned before, I imagine I would be busy using my mana for other things.
-2 Veteran Explorer: Vs. STP, and I feel like there are more productive things to be done in the match.
+1 Massacre: Vs. Plains + Creatures
+1 Toxic Deluge: Vs. Creatures
+1 Krosan Grip: This hits soooooooooo many things in this match.
+1 Golgari Charm: Great vs. X/1's, and any possible Enlightened Tutor goodies.
G2: I get a pretty typical Explorer + Therapy hand, hitting 2x STP. He shows me an Enlightened Tutor, which fetches up a Batterskull to play off his newly acquired Snow-Covered Plains. I forgot how much I hated playing against this card. It ends up catapulting his life total to 43, but I finally manage to get him in a situation where he has no cards in hand, I have a Liliana and a Deed in play. I attempt to blow the deed for 5, he returns the Batterskull and Lilly makes him trash it. From there on out Thragtusk slowly chips away at his life-total, and a Prime Time grabs me a Kessig Wolf Run to clean up quickly. Not every day I get to say "In response, I'll give my 5/3 +8/+0 and Trample". Having played DNT for quite some time, I was incredibly stupid to have extended my manabase as much as I did. Cataclysm would have dumpstered me beyond belief.
R6 - Brad from Seattle(?) - UR Delver
I still believe this is a positive match-up for me, but they have a "god-draw" which ends the game before I'm able to develop. Brad is a nice guy though. I see him at most events in the Pacific Northwest, and we usually end up sitting near each other during events. Cool to finally put a name to the face/voice.
G1: I get absolutely trashed. Double Delvers, backed by double Dazes prevent me from removing his creatures. With no Decay in sight, I get burned out before being able to even think about stabilizing.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: Expensive and weak Vs. Pyromancer and friends.
-1 Primeval Titan: Too big. Other threats will make do.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top: Using my mana each turn to prevent myself from dying. No time for dilly-dallying.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+1 Toxic Deluge: Vs. Creatures
+1 Golgari Charm: Vs. X/1's
G2: I put a bit more of a fight, but Finks can only stall for so long. I still can't find a Decay, and eventually my remaining 12 life points just get burned out. Welp.
After the match, Brad confesses he just nutter-buttered me and believes that there's probably more to this match-up. I'd be inclined to agree. Well, there goes Top 8, but I'm still up for qualifying for the Invitational if I snag Top 32.
R7 - Tom "The Boss" Ross from SCG - Jeskai Ascendancy Combo:
Welp, here we go. I knew he was on Ascendancy Combo, but I had never really seen it in action. I assumed that I could put up a good fight, considering his win conditions, but having never played the deck I wasn't entirely confident.
G1: An early Explorer + Therapy hits 2x Jeskai Ascendancy, and helps me set up shop. He cruises into more cruises, into more cruises, but is never able to combo off against my arsenal of removal. It takes a while, as I'm being incredibly cautious, but I end up killing him at a healthy life total. Pernicious Deed gets a gold sticker for the disgustingly satisfying things it did this match.
I may have over-sideboarded due to my inexperience, but it worked out well.
-1 Maelstrom Pulse: Slow, and Charm does the job much better.
-1 Kitchen Finks: Seemed unnecessary.
-1 Primeval Titan: So darn big.
-2 Green Sun's Zenith: My game plan was to strip him of all win-cons. Zenith doesn't exactly assist in this.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: At an all-time low in this match-up.
+1 Golgari Charm
+2 Slaughter Games
+3 Surgical Extraction
+3 Red Elemental Blast
On the draw, decided to give 61 cards a whirl.
G2: I Cabal Therapy away some counter-magic, to clear the way for a Golgari Charm to take out his Young Peezy. It ends up working, and I'm staring at this Surgical Extraction in my hand. He has some unknown cards, but I figure it would be worth using Surgical on the Pyromancer (on draw step). I decline to do so, and naturally he slams a second Pyromancer. I end up taking care of this one as well, and decide to bite the bullet at Surgical it. He responds with a Surgical of his own, protecting his small # of threats. All this time he has been cruising (and does so a total of 4x times in this game). I get a Slaughter Games off on Jeskai Ascendancy, but he only had one left after boarding. This does allow me to get a glance at the Meddling Mages he sided in. He prevents me from landing a significant threat, so it looks like we're on the PFire plan. After getting him quite low, he casts a Brainstorm leaving only a fetchland available for finding a mana source. Expecting him to shuffle (and knowing he has a Spell Pierce in hand), I wait for him to fetch before taking action. He cracks his land (going to 3), I PFire in response (down to 1), return it to my hand with Grove (back to 2) and tap out to cast it again (hopefully killing him). He is resigned to Force (pitching Pierce, putting him at 1) which leaves him in a sticky situation. He untaps, looks at his life total and the board, shrugs, and then casts Pithing Needle. "I'll name Grove". Oh, I get it. I untap, at the board. "You're at 1? Tap Grove of the Burnwillows for red mana. You gain one life and my Punishing Fire Trig..." - "Yeah, you got me."
Alright, we're still live for Top 32.
R8 - Joshua from The Pacific Northwest(?) - UR Delver:
For whatever reason, I was under the impression he was on ANT. That said, I'm glad he wasn't, as I kept a god-awful hand for that match-up.
G1: He has an incredibly quick start, but I'm able to stabilize somewhat. Kitchen Finks makes an appearance and helps out a considerable amount. Golgari Charm clears up the board, and we're ready to restart the game. He has one (random) card in hand, and I have a choice. Either tapout for GSZ -> Thragtusk, or go for the "safer" GSZ -> Huntmaster and play around Daze. I was at a somewhat healthy life total, but you can never be too safe vs. UR Delver. I go for the Tusk, and naturally he has Daze #3. Welp, what's the worse that can happen. He untaps and then proceeds to chain two Treasure Cruises. I get chipped down by a dork to 5, but manage to run him out of cards again. I've got a top going, all the mana in the world and 2x PFire + Decay. I'm not seeing anything to help me survive/win however, and runner-runner bolts unfortunately ends me.
-3 Liliana of the Veil: Expensive and weak Vs. Pyromancer and friends.
-1 Primeval Titan: Too big. Other threats will make do.
-1 Sensei's Divining Top: Using my mana each turn to prevent myself from dying. No time for dilly-dallying.
+3 Red Elemental Blast: Vs. Blue
+1 Toxic Deluge: Vs. Creatures
+1 Golgari Charm: Vs. X/1's
G2: I mulligan to 6, while he takes 5. Not exactly the way I wanted to lead this match to an epic finale, but Therapy + Finks and PFire lock going make this rather quick.
G3: We're both on 7. My hand is a thing of beauty. Not too ridiculous, but it just oozes of Nic Fit (no pun intended, nor appropriate as there was no Ooze in my hand). He Ponders (shuffles) and then passes. Great, no Delver! I play an Explorer and pass. He casts a Swiftspear, probe and then tanks about attacking into my Explorer. He declines to do so, and just ships the turn. I'm not sure why, but he seemed incredibly nervous as a crowd had begun to gather. I'm not sure how experienced of a tournament player he was, as he seemed to be in his late teens (approx 16-18). Anyways, I cast a Therapy, it resolves and I want to slam this Deed asap. I name Force of Will.... and hit 3 of them. The remainder of his hand was a Moutain and a snapland. It might have been a waste, but I wanted to press this advantage and flashbacked the Therapy naming Hunted Wumpus. Unfortunately I bricked, but the extra mana allowed me to safely resolve a Deed. He does draw a Cruise to pull himself back into the game, but PFire lock and Thrun put a stop to such silly things. With a sigh of relief, the tournament is finally over.
Props:
- HoneyT for posting some sideboard notes (that I should have read more thoroughly) and shipping the list.
- sdeMatt for lending me some pretty English Beta duals to rock.
- Vancouver players for being supportive for taking Nic Fit to a larger event.
- Kessig Wolf Run was an absolute monster.
- All the awesome remarks I got from playing this great deck.
Slops:
- Unfortunately no Top 8/Top 16 for website coverage.
- Always being one step behind getting on camera :(
- Not sideboarding properly
- Needed to play a bit quicker. I'm a fast player, but this is on a completely different level.
Again, I would love any comments or concerns on my sideboarding/build.
Cheers,
Benjamin
sdematt
12-08-2014, 11:49 PM
/Like.
-Matt
Bobmans
12-09-2014, 07:49 AM
Quick little SCG Portland report.
Great read and nice results.
Based on your experience do you want to change anything in your list?
Myelectronicdays
12-09-2014, 09:47 AM
great write up! thanks for the good notes :)
ZimAshe
12-09-2014, 04:19 PM
If anyone listened to the latest Everyday Eternal podcast, they discussed a Junk Nic Fit build that one of the hosts has been running lately:
4 Siege Rhino seems crazy, .
After playing with 2, then 3 and upping it to 4 I'd have to say that NOT playing 4 is crazy. This card is a house, I have cut down on some of my high to fit him in. He is extremely efficient at what he does.
SevenInTheQueue
12-09-2014, 06:11 PM
Great read and nice results.
Based on your experience do you want to change anything in your list?
Primeval Titan seemed a bit overkill. I think I rather have Broodmate Dragon, as it can also play a defensive role if necessary. Also thinking -1 Slaughter Games might be correct.
Ricardio
12-09-2014, 07:51 PM
Can someone give me the latest shift wish list? Can't find a new one and I just got the wishes I needed.
bryanzoll
12-09-2014, 08:47 PM
Can someone give me the latest shift wish list? Can't find a new one and I just got the wishes I needed.
It all depends on the style you want to play the deck.
You can either run it as a combo-shell that has a few creatures as support or you can run it as a mid-range deck that has the ability to combo out.
I would defer you to Arianrhod for a combo-style deck list.
Here is my current mid-range deck that I have great results with on mtgo:
[14] Creatures
4 veteran explorer
2 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wood Elves
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
[15] Sorceries
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
3 GSZ
2 Scapeshift
[3] Instant
3 Abrupt Decay
[6] Artifact & Enchantment
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
[23] Land
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Ground
3 Badland
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut
3 Verdant Catacomb
[15] Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers (Insane)
3 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Scapeshift
1 GSZ
1 Ruination
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
Let me know if you have any questions about the deck or specific matchups.
ZimAshe
12-10-2014, 12:27 PM
Last night I equipped a Siege Rhino with a Batterskull. My life is now complete.
I have been thinking about Restoration Angel as a way to get extra value out of Rhino and other creatures with ETB abilities. Is that too cute? I am aware that it creates some tension in the four drop slot and that Angel is not searchable with GSZ. Perhaps a pod build?
sdematt
12-10-2014, 04:17 PM
In the Pod build I used Resto and liked it.
uncletiggy
12-10-2014, 05:05 PM
I also used it in the pod build it was negilgibly better then just playing another rhino. the only time I wanted it was if I had an active pod a three drop and a thragtusk in play and I was really far behind other then that it wasnt where I wanted to be.
I have been thinking about Restoration Angel as a way to get extra value out of Rhino and other creatures with ETB abilities. Is that too cute? I am aware that it creates some tension in the four drop slot and that Angel is not searchable with GSZ. Perhaps a pod build?
If you were to run a 1-of card to abuse ETB abilities, that card should be recurring nightmare imo. If either one is worth it really depends on how many creatures/ETB abilities you are running.
sdematt
12-10-2014, 09:37 PM
Realistically, if you're playing Nightmare correctly, the only way they can get rid of it is Thoughtseize or Clique. It's a nightmare, no pun intended, if you can get the right loops going.
-Matt
uncletiggy
12-11-2014, 01:58 AM
My list looks a little wonky with the abundance of 3 ofs but I'd suggest anyone interested in seige rhino to give it a whirl and decide for yourself before making the mistake of falling into the 0 or 4 mentality. I have a couple fkex slots main im still not finished with but I'm satisfied keeping them as "the" flex slots. Every other card I'm sold on in its current form.
3 Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Seige Rhino
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Strangleroot Geist (flex)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Plow
1 Funeral Charm (flex)
1 Golgari Charm (flex)
3 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
1 Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
6 Basics
6 Duals
7 Fetches
2 Phyrexian Tower
I know I lost a lot of people at no deeds/deluge main. Several more for actually playing 3 ofs and everyone else at Strangleroot Geist but it plays like a smooth union of maverick/Rock/Nic Fit.
For anyone curious this is my current board
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgement
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
Feed back is appreciated, even trolling. The board is still shifting around but any thoughts?
ZimAshe
12-11-2014, 08:57 AM
If you were to run a 1-of card to abuse ETB abilities, that card should be recurring nightmare imo. If either one is worth it really depends on how many creatures/ETB abilities you are running.
I was thinking of Angle as more of a way to dodge removal. I lost a game because my opponent had to cast dig through time to find a Plow to send my Rhino farming. If that hadn't happened I win the next turn. although with recurring nightmare there is the potential to "burn them out" with looping Rhinos. It's definitely worth some testing.
The Crow's Eye
12-11-2014, 02:51 PM
How's this look for a Wolf-Run Nic Fit?
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Towers
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Mountain
Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Malestrom Pulse
3 Slaughter Games
I wanted to try using Vraska and Sarkhan. Lili seems good here, as a way of ditching cards I don't need.
pettdan
12-11-2014, 04:54 PM
Woohoo, here we go!
OR
Sorry for the Kevinishly long post! :)
I finally got to playtest my/our ideas in a local tournament yesterday. This is the deck I discussed with PfireMC a few weeks ago. I should also mention that I've played Sdematt's the Rock list a few times this autumn so I'm very influenced by that list and it's quite interesting to see he's/you're turning the Rock in the Nic Fit direction while we're (with this build) approaching a Rock Fit (especially with the transformational sideboard plan mentioned below). If it works is another question.
Initial list from Pfiremc:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=850860&viewfull=1#post850860
With some added ideas from this post tested in the deck list below:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=850946&viewfull=1#post850946
And with these updates since the post above:
-1 Lingering Souls, +1 Liliana
-2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Zealous Persecution
- 2 Gaea's Cradle, + 1 Bayou (waiting for cradles, not sure they are worth it though)
Above changes are motivated by a) more anti combo in the main with an extra Liliana b) need to combine Liliana with a sweeper c) no Cradles right now so can skip 1 souls.
I'm of the opinion that it's worth weighing every card in the deck list twice to consider an alternative that fits in the deck, the meta and is relevant vs combo decks. Giving up on the combo matchup completely in g1 just seems like a bad deck building strategy. For this reason, and due to running Punishing Fire vs the small creature decks, the Punishing Nic Fit seems like the best version. And the junk answer to these concepts could be Liliana with Zealous Persecution/Toxic Deluge in the main deck. Do notice that adding sweepers alongside Liliana is not only synergetic but also hedges with the sweepers being extra strong in the matchups where Liliana is extra weak.
So, the deck list (again) with 60 + 15 cards:
Nic Fit core:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
Removal:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Liliana of the Veil
Equipment package:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Lingering Souls
GSZ-package:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
Card selection/drawing:
3 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands (22):
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Humility
A few SB-comments:
Humility is sweet in this deck, with the equipment, souls and persecutions.
Surgical is good vs the fast graveyard decks and for great synergy with Cabal Therapy, in response to Brainstorm.
I may try Aura Shards, since I lack Deed and play Arbor + Souls. And since I want mass-artifact removal not being Deed.
Transformational sideboard?
I have an idea to put a copy of KotR in the main and 2-3 Wastelands in the side, allowing me to switch veterans to wastelands and transform into the Rock [a more Rock-like strategy] when appropriate. With the low mana curve it looks doable, may need to lower it slightly. That will surprise anyone trying to fetch duals to keep basics in their library for veteran triggers. And playing on land light hands. Such a transformational sideboard (of 2-3 slots) could be taken one step further by the inclusion of 2 Trinispheres, playing along the lines of Sylvan Plug, without the Sol lands but with 4 GSZ for t1 Arbor and 3 Deathries giving 7 cards enabling a t2 Trinisphere.
...
TOURNAMENT REPORT from the local game store Dragon's Lair, Stockholm, Sweden on December 10th:
Here is a tournament report from a local tournament, not too relevant for most of you so just skip. But since I really enjoy reading all of your reports I figured I will offer this back to the Source. And I appologize for not having taken proper notes and giving a blurry representation of the games.
I went 3-1 winning against Goblin Stax, Death & Taxes and Miracles and losing against BUG Delver.
Match 1, Goblin Stax: 2-0
Short version: I slowly kill of chalices in both games and kill him with Siege Rhino and whatever G2.
G1:
He was landing plenty of chalices and trinispheres in both games. First game I think he goes first, I landed a deathrite on turn two and he plays a chalice on 1 turn 2. I follow up with a Liliana, ticking it up. He goes Rabblemaster I think and starts picking on Liliana. I think I may have followed up with a Siege Rhino (from my 3 fetched basics + deathrite) because he kept his Rabblemaster at home, hitting with 2 tokens next turn and playing probably a trinisphere. Next turn I may have decayed the chalice and therapied a Moggcatcher. He's low on life from Siege Rhino and several Ancient Tomb-activations so I beat him down over a few turns.
SB: +1 Qasali, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Abrupt Decay, +2(?) Deluge; -1 Gaddock Teeg, 1(?) Cabal Therapy
G2:
Second game he plays t1 chalice @1 and t2 chalice @2, making my hand of Veteran, Therapy and (1 more 1-drop, SDT?) slightly inefficient. I also had a Decay but the targets were lining up fast, I think t3 Trinisphere and shortly after Ensnaring Bridge. I chose to Decay Chalice@1 during my turn 3 and then waited a turn before I could GSZ for Qasali with mana available for destroying something with it. I played Deathrite for 3 during that turn of waiting, figuring it will both accellerate and be a way to close the game through the Bridge he had played. I get another Deathrite into play start picking at him for 2 points of damage each turn. Once I get the Qasali mana I think he had just gotten Jitte into play so I destroy it, instead of his Bridge, and he just gets below 3 cards before I can get the Qasali back to my hand from the graveyard with the Sword. Finally I manage to hit his bridge and beat down with something. It's a bit blurred out, but artifact removal was obviously crucial; Deed would have been great but I pulled it off without so obviously not necessary. I have done a little playtesting vs Sylvan Plug on Cockatrice and the matchup is pretty good, so I think I'm packing a reasonable amount of artifact hate even without Deed.
Match 2, BUG Delver: 0-2
Short version: I don't get my lifegain online in the first game and in the second I lose to drawing few lands and a bad keep. Goyf and Delver may have something to do with it too.
G1:
I think he opens with a fetch, I play Deathrite happily and it's eot Disfigured. He follows with Delver, it doesn't flip in about 2 turns but is joined by a Goyf. I play Veteran, he flips Delver and I think attacks allowing me to fetch for lands. He plays another Delver, I play Sylvan and Jitte and something which is all Decayed and Spell Pierced. He cruises, yuck. I have a Vault of the Archangel out but not enough mana to use it and no blocker to kill the goyf. While I'm playing Sylvan and Jitte he's attacking for 3, 3 and 3+5 or so, I think I tapped out for a GSZ for Siege Tank which was countered during that last attack. I had a fetch available but forgot to get Arbor which would have bought me a turn. Next turn I get the Siege Tank into play, but I'm already at 3-4 life points. One more turn would have allowed me to start gaining life with Siege Rhino + Vault but it would still have been tough.
SB: +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Abrupt Decay, +2 Toxic Deluge, -1 Gaddock Teeg, -2 Zealous Persecution, -1(?) Veteran Explorer, -1(?) Cabal Therapy
G2:
I have loads of relevant cmc 1-2 cards in hand but only a plains and a Vault. I feel like gambling since all I need is a single fetch, and he needs to answer my Stoneforge for Jitte. So of course he kills the stoneforge and wastes my vault and I draw no lands over the next 5-6 turns.
Match 3, Death & Taxes: 2-1
Short version: Zealous Persecution in main was good, go to G3 for juicy opening.
G1:
In the first game the crucial plays I remember are that I kill his threatening Aven Mindcensor and some other creature with a Zealous Persecution.
SB: +2 Toxic Deluge, +1 Abrupt Decay, +1(?) Pithing Needle; -1 Gaddock Teeg, -2 Liliana, and possibly one more card.
G2:
He wins, forgot all about this. He may have Flickerwisped a Batterskull token at some point, probably beaten down with 3/x fliers.
G3: Pretty nice start, showing the power of Cabal Therapy. I start with a Cabal Therapy, naming Aether Vial (it enables such dirty tricks, rushing, mana denial etc). Turn 2 I topdeck a second Therapy and get his Aven Mindcensor, play Veteran and buyback Cabal to take his Stoneforge. The two lands allow me to GSZ for Veteran no 2 and buyback the second Cabal Therapy to take his last nonland card in hand, a Flickerwisp. So T2 I have 6 lands in play and the opponent has 3-4 lands [as only cards] in hand. Proceed to win the game.
Match 4, Miracles: 1-0
Short story: a long grind vs miracles with an unbelievable finish (spoiler: it's not a miracle).
G1:
When we sit down opposite to each other we both realize we're probably not going to be able to finish this game, both of us usually playing control decks. The store is closing forcing us to finish in 40 minutes or so. This game is quite blurry since we played for 30+ turns with constant action and topdecking skills on his side (I had Sylvan, drawing plenty).
He gets a slow start with no tops or brainstorms. He counterspells my two-drop, probably Mystic. Third turn I therapy for Jace and miss, seeing an entreat and double FoW's. I get some creature into play and flashback Cabal to take the FoW's. The next turns are blurry but involve decay decay on his hard cast entreat for 1, another decay in response to top activation - which gave him Terminus to sweep my creature. Liliana kills something and does some discarding. Sylvan draws me plenty of cards and Liliana has him low on cards but he keeps topdecking counterspells, FoW and snapcaster for three consecutive turns countering my Siege Tank and other repeated threats. I probably get a Mystic into play and Sword of L&S for STP-protection but he terminuses. I really want to connect only once to start pulling Siege Tanks back from the graveyard but he follows up the counterspell-turns with swords, snap, terminus, terminus for my Dryad Arbor which I'm fetching back, and Clique. Also he has mad Venser action blocking and bouncing my 1-2 creatures (veteran + dryad) that are equiped but can't get through. However it keeps him tapped out. He keeps bouncing and I keep attacking, shuffling and drawing extra with library but I can only get more lands and Sylvans on the top of my library. Finally I get a Sigarda on the top 3 of the library but notice that I have only drawn 1 white mana in the 30 turns or so. And the lands on the top of my library are not fetches, by now. So after 3-4 turns waiting for a threat or a second white land time is called. It's looking grim. I finally get the land to play a Sigarda during the first turn of time. He's at about 17 life and I'm at about 3 life from Sylvan. Hit him during the third round of time for 5 getting two jitte counters, he's now down to 12. I use one counter to kill his Clique(?). For some reason I couldn't afford equipping the sword too. During the fifth and last turn of time I equip the sword too and use the Jitte counter to deal 9 sweet deamage in the air, sword triggering to allow me to pick up Siege Tank which is just enough to deal the last 3 points of damage. Sweetest win in a long time, but we made a couple of mistakes throughout the games both of us.
Any comments appreciated, especially on deck building choices. Or you can PM me to tell me what I should or shouldn't write in a report or this thread...
bryanzoll
12-11-2014, 07:16 PM
How's this look for a Wolf-Run Nic Fit?
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Thragtusk
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Towers
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Mountain
Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Malestrom Pulse
3 Slaughter Games
I wanted to try using Vraska and Sarkhan. Lili seems good here, as a way of ditching cards I don't need.
I'd say cut persecutor for obstinate baloth and run 1 sarkhan and 3 lili over 2 sarkhan and 2 vraska
The Crow's Eye
12-11-2014, 09:33 PM
I'd say cut persecutor for obstinate baloth and run 1 sarkhan and 3 lili over 2 sarkhan and 2 vraska
Thanks, I'll look into three Lili. I notice that the Scapeshift variant on the first page opts for Stormbreath in its creature mix...what's the reasoning for this over something like Primeval Titan or more Thragtusks? Also, there was a rentsy Rock Nic Fit here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=75666
Could a 2-2-2 of Lili, Vraska, Sarkhan work if I followed this deck's model, or is it too much of a gamble? My mainboard changes would see Thrun, Huntmaster in place of the Obliterators, and Scooze over Bloodghast.
Bobmans
12-12-2014, 02:02 AM
Stormbreath Dragon is pretty efficient. A 4/4 flyer with haste and protection from white (plow proof) makes this a strong creature vs say Miracles. The only problem offcourse would be it not be searchable with GSZ. In that regard i am always avoiding non green creatures in PFire lists (or any non pod lists for that matter)
As for Sarkhan dragonspeaker i am not sure. He might be solid on the offense but defensive he seems a bit week and him costing double RR might be an issue (sometimes). Also the 2/2/2 split seems akward. I would prefer a 3/1/1 split at the most. With 3x liliana. Yesterday i did some testing with Vraska, the Unseen and it was pretty good. Having a walker with Deathtouch is OK, at least it's a trade. Her - ability was most relevant most of the time. Also having her ultimate as a wincon is nice to. With some amount of board control it is pretty hard for the opponent to get rid of the three tokens. She gets the MD spot over Garruk Relentless which is now on the board and thinking to switch him for Sarkhan the Mad as was suggested earlier.
Also i have been thinking about Primeval Titan. I really think for a 6 drop the Titan doesn't have to much impact on the board. Does anyone has been having the same thoughts and wants it replaced with something else? And what could/would that be?
bryanzoll
12-12-2014, 02:08 AM
Thanks, I'll look into three Lili. I notice that the Scapeshift variant on the first page opts for Stormbreath in its creature mix...what's the reasoning for this over something like Primeval Titan or more Thragtusks? Also, there was a rentsy Rock Nic Fit here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=75666
Could a 2-2-2 of Lili, Vraska, Sarkhan work if I followed this deck's model, or is it too much of a gamble? My mainboard changes would see Thrun, Huntmaster in place of the Obliterators, and Scooze over Bloodghast.
My thoughts on Stormbreath dragon has always been the same...if you cant tutor for it, it doesn't belong in a GSZ deck. I tried dragon, I tried other non-green creatures (with scapewish) and everytime I had a GSZ with 7+ mana in play and needed the ability of that creature I just cried. It sucks not being able to tutor up a 1 or 2-of in the deck. One of the reasons we run all green colored creatures is because we can run them as those 1 or 2-ofs but still effectively have 4-5 copies of them in the deck due to GSZ. My suggestion would be to stick with creatures where you will have more consistency from and those will be in the color green.
As far as a 2-2-2 split, my first impression is that 6 planeswalkers in any nic fit deck just seems like its too many. I would suggest 4 at the most, 3 being lili, 1 being sarkhan or vraska. From there, see how sarkhan or vraska improve matchups where you feel you are weak. That is one of the reasons why Liliana is so strong in the deck, is because she significantly helps out game again decks where they would otherwise always have the upper hand (i.e. storm).
PhyrexianLibrarian
12-12-2014, 10:30 AM
Surgical is good vs the fast graveyard decks and for great synergy with Cabal Therapy, in response to Brainstorm.
I just want to clarify how this interaction works.
- You cast Cabal Therapy and pass priority.
- Opponent casts Brainstorm, you let it resolve.
- After Brainstorm resolves, you get priority again, and can Surgically Extract the Brainstorm before your opponent gets a chance to counter the original Therapy. Chances are they can't counter both.
- Profit?
Madmankevinx
12-12-2014, 04:39 PM
Does anyone have a good up to date G/B/W list right now? I'm looking at adopting this deck as one of my go to decks since I sold all my blue duals and staples to pay bills... Anyone ever try Sun Titan out? Recurring things like Deed seems kinda fun with a 6/6 vigilance. Just wondering.
uncletiggy
12-12-2014, 09:52 PM
My list is on the previous page its a non pod gbw version pretty straight forward there isn't really a standardized agreed upon list most people are either on stoneforge or pod both is doable but I think my list is a good place to start.
HoneyT
12-12-2014, 11:16 PM
Does anyone have a good up to date G/B/W list right now? I'm looking at adopting this deck as one of my go to decks since I sold all my blue duals and staples to pay bills... Anyone ever try Sun Titan out? Recurring things like Deed seems kinda fun with a 6/6 vigilance. Just wondering.
This is the Abzan list I would recommend:
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Council's Judgment
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Sensei's Divining Top
SB
1 Cranial Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Memoricide
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
Also, for those dabbling in the Punishing Fire version, Liliana is the tits and Sarkhan and Vraska are hot garbage. If you want another planeswalker, Garruk, Primal Hunter is your man.
jbone2016
12-13-2014, 02:00 AM
My Current Junk Mystic Fit List (feels nice to go 4-0...twice now)
Land (22)
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures (16)
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells and stuff (23)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sword to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal (Damn tokens)
SB (kinda of messy)
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
1 Extripate
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 AShen Rider
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Bobmans
12-13-2014, 02:19 AM
Also, for those dabbling in the Punishing Fire version, Liliana is the tits and Sarkhan and Vraska are hot garbage. If you want another planeswalker, Garruk, Primal Hunter is your man.
Liliana should be there as a 3-off. Agreed on that. Tried 2, but hated it. Never drew it when i needed her. For the rest i disagree.
Vraska was awesome every time it hit the board. Either it turned the gamestate aroud (destroying Tombstalker or a Batterskull) or it upped trading for multiple creatures or it just upped and ultimate FTW while using removal to keep the path clean. I like it. I haven't tried dicking around with Sarkhan yet. Also going to try out Garruk, Apex Predator. 7 mana is a lot, but it has pretty much everything it needs.
Garruk, PH is awesome and it sucks at the same time. While sometimes it just steals games overloading on 3/3's, but most of the time he does not have to much effect on the board state. In the end i am not sure If Sarkhan (the Mad) would be better then Garruk PH, but at least i am just gonna try it and find out.
pfiremc13
12-13-2014, 06:08 PM
Woohoo, here we go!
OR
Sorry for the Kevinishly long post! :)
I finally got to playtest my/our ideas in a local tournament yesterday. This is the deck I discussed with PfireMC a few weeks ago. I should also mention that I've played Sdematt's the Rock list a few times this autumn so I'm very influenced by that list and it's quite interesting to see he's/you're turning the Rock in the Nic Fit direction while we're (with this build) approaching a Rock Fit (especially with the transformational sideboard plan mentioned below). If it works is another question.
Initial list from Pfiremc:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=850860&viewfull=1#post850860
With some added ideas from this post tested in the deck list below:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=850946&viewfull=1#post850946
And with these updates since the post above:
-1 Lingering Souls, +1 Liliana
-2 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Zealous Persecution
- 2 Gaea's Cradle, + 1 Bayou (waiting for cradles, not sure they are worth it though)
Above changes are motivated by a) more anti combo in the main with an extra Liliana b) need to combine Liliana with a sweeper c) no Cradles right now so can skip 1 souls.
I'm of the opinion that it's worth weighing every card in the deck list twice to consider an alternative that fits in the deck, the meta and is relevant vs combo decks. Giving up on the combo matchup completely in g1 just seems like a bad deck building strategy. For this reason, and due to running Punishing Fire vs the small creature decks, the Punishing Nic Fit seems like the best version. And the junk answer to these concepts could be Liliana with Zealous Persecution/Toxic Deluge in the main deck. Do notice that adding sweepers alongside Liliana is not only synergetic but also hedges with the sweepers being extra strong in the matchups where Liliana is extra weak.
So, the deck list (again) with 60 + 15 cards:
Nic Fit core:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
Removal:
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Liliana of the Veil
Equipment package:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Lingering Souls
GSZ-package:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
Card selection/drawing:
3 Sylvan Library
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands (22):
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Humility
[tournament report]
Hey, thanks for working on this deck a little more.
I don't like ZP's in the main since not a lot of decks have a lot of X/1's. I really like it in the board though.
The singleton top doesn't seem necessary to me, what's your opinion on it?
I agree that liliana's could be good mainboard, I just can't find the room for them.
I think that with some decks, the g1 combo matchup is hopeless. But since this deck can have siege-rhino-fueled 5-6 turn kills I think this deck has a chance. So I moved the sideboard teeg to the main, cutting sun titan and adding a baneslayer to the side for the matchups where you need a little more lategame.
What do you think is the best utility land? I like gavony township but vault of the archangel is sweet too.
Do you stand by your list after the tournament or would you change anything?
pettdan
12-13-2014, 07:38 PM
@Pfiremc:
I'll try to answer, but more playing is needed. I'd like to read about your testing too if you're doing some. :)
The top is because it hurts very badly not getting some draw mechanism into play in the late game. And top can be shuffled back in easily when excessive as opposite to sylvan no 4. And is harder for opp to remove. Consider it a card selection insurance. It seems important in helping us compete with blue decks in terms of finding the right answer/threat at the right time. Actually thinking of it this may be the relevant swap for testing Courser I was looking for. He rids us of bad topdecks too, keeping lands off the top (and as a bonus puts them into play). With added lifegain.
Sword of light and shadow has been really nice. Protection from swords and skull, offering life gain and tutorable recurring nightmare ... And boosting spirit tokens are all very relevant things. It won me a game against miracles in the fifth round of time due to siege rhino replayed and was close to doing heavy work in the stax matchup via qasali chain killing bridges and chalices. Will keep jitte but could see myself trying a second sword of light and shadow too. Of course i have the ZP's covering the dirty jitte work on x/1's, without them the choice swings slightly in favor of jitte. When it comes to ZP I was thinking it may depend on the amount of goyfs we expect to see in the meta and the amount of lingering souls we play (as an alternative answer to delvers, which are abundant globally i'd expect and less dependent on local meta).
I dont know about lands. I'll keep trying vault for a while. Lifegain is so good with Sylvan. And deathtouch is good with souls. Gavony T seems strong but to benefit from it you need to survive a few extra turns. Vault helps you make it through those turns, that's another reason I prefer trying it.
I did have problems getting veteran killed, so a phyrexian tower may be worth it when not playing cradle. Good with souls too.
I'm thinking of playing 3(+1) lingering souls and 2(-1) veteran explorer once my cradles arrive.
I did play against ANT today and lost 1-2. I tried the transformational sideboard and missing t1 interaction due to drawing a wasteland over the third sb thoughtseize may have cost me a game. So perhaps leave the 3 TS and swap something else next time.. Or skip it.
Oh yeah, one more thing. I needed a scrubland several times, changing a savannah.
pfiremc13
12-13-2014, 09:13 PM
@Pfiremc:
I'll try to answer, but more playing is needed. I'd like to read about your testing too if you're doing some. :)
I have not gotten a chance to test yet, though I plan to.
The top is because it hurts very badly not getting some draw mechanism into play in the late game. And top can be shuffled back in easily when excessive as opposite to sylvan no 4. And is harder for opp to remove. Consider it a card selection insurance. It seems important in helping us compete with blue decks in terms of finding the right answer/threat at the right time. Actually thinking of it this may be the relevant swap for testing Courser I was looking for. He rids us of bad topdecks too, keeping lands off the top (and as a bonus puts them into play). With added lifegain.
Fair enough, though this is something that needs testing.
Sword of light and shadow has been really nice. Protection from swords and skull, offering life gain and tutorable recurring nightmare ... And boosting spirit tokens are all very relevant things.
Yeah, it seems really good.
Of course i have the ZP's covering the dirty jitte work on x/1's, without them the choice swings slightly in favor of jitte. When it comes to ZP I was thinking it may depend on the amount of goyfs we expect to see in the meta and the amount of lingering souls we play (as an alternative answer to delvers, which are abundant globally i'd expect and less dependent on local meta).
Makes sense.
I dont know about lands. I'll keep trying vault for a while. Lifegain is so good with Sylvan. And deathtouch is good with souls. Gavony T seems strong but to benefit from it you need to survive a few extra turns. Vault helps you make it through those turns, that's another reason I prefer trying it.
Fair enough, though I still like the sheer power of township. If you get 3+ creatures (which is not hard in this deck) and a township active it's difficult to lose, though it is win-more in some respects.
I did have problems getting veteran killed, so a phyrexian tower may be worth it when not playing cradle. Good with souls too.
I'm not sure about this with the reduced number of explorers and a utility land.
I did play against ANT today and lost 1-2. I tried the transformational sideboard and missing t1 interaction due to drawing a wasteland over the third sb thoughtseize may have cost me a game. So perhaps leave the 3 TS and swap something else next time.. Or skip it.
It is true that a transformational sideboard might hurt the amount of combo hate you can fit in your sideboard, but it might still be possible. This requires more testing.
For the record, I think the deck has a good combo matchup overall, despite the fact that it isn't great game 1. In games 2 and 3 the deck can bring in disruption and combined with the fast clock for nic fit that is probably enough. This also requires testing though.
tomatojim
12-16-2014, 10:25 AM
Hey Sourcers!
After lurking TheSource for about a year, I've decided to join the party. I've been playing legacy for a year now and fell in love with Nic Fit over the last couple of months. On Saturday I played my first real tournament with it (6 rounds in Nuremberg). After long thoughts about wether I want to play a punishing list, or a GB list with only a small R-splash for SB cards I ended up with the following:
23 lands:
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Treetop Village
24 spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
13 creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
the list felt pretty OK throughout the event, I'm still not sure if I want Phyrexian Tower for the Prime Time toolbox as well, though it's another colorless source (in a way). Sage didn't do a lot, not sure about her either. Top is the nuts, I might go up to 4 copies. But now a short summary:
R1: (Ponder)Miracles 0-1-1
g1 he handles Thrun twice, Jace and Entreat evetually win the game, since I can't get JTMS off the board (Counterbalance).
g2 we durdle around again, Grip takes care of his Top, during the extraturns I go for the kill with Garruk's ulti (7 worms), but he has Terminus. Maybe I should've gone for that instead of Entreat with an earlier Slaughter Games.
R2: BUG Delver 2-1
g1 both decks work pretty well, which lets me come out on top :wink:
g2 I don't find my fourth land (despite having Top) and die.
g3 I win on my last extraturn with Thrun, after Pfiring his DRS. That was close.
R3: Red MUD 0-2
g1 I screw up hard, but I guess it didn't matter in the end. For those of you who didn't know, overlooking an active Welder can be pretty backbreaking :tongue:
g2 I can't handle his Forgemaster into Sundering Titan into Blightsteel. Feels like a rough matchup, what are your thoughts about MUD?
R4: Die bUrg (4-color Delver) 1-1-1
g1 I get beaten down by a single (!) Delver, because I can't find a removal spell (Deed gets countered).
g2 I still don't find removals, DRS and Explorers are working on each others life totals until I can resolve a Pyroclasm through a Spell Snare. Liliana and Garruk win afterwards, but it takes too long to start g3.
R5: Junk (without SFM) 2-0
g1 I win with Prime Time including Kessig Wolf Run after lots and lots of trades.
g2 I eventually win with Fattie into Fattie into Fattie against his mass of Goyfs, after he extracted my Deeds.
R6: LED-Dredge 2-0
I win both games pretty much by naming LED with Therapy and Pfiring my Explorers to ramp and get rid of his bridges. The secound game was close though, Titan + Wolf Run trample over Elesh Norn for the win.
so I end up in 12th place (36 players) with a record of 3-2-1, which I guess is OK for the first time playing that deck, even if the matchups were not that bad overall. I still feel pretty uncomfortable with sideboarding (especially siding out) and need to play a bit faster.
A specific SB question: Does a Miracles pilot side out the Counterbalances against us, since we have a strange curve and decays? And hence should I side out some (or all) of my decays (at least against the 4-Ponder-list)? My opponent from R1 said he did not side them out.
Greetings!
bryanzoll
12-16-2014, 11:31 AM
A specific SB question: Does a Miracles pilot side out the Counterbalances against us, since we have a strange curve and decays? And hence should I side out some (or all) of my decays (at least against the 4-Ponder-list)? My opponent from R1 said he did not side them out.
Greetings!
No they do not. Nic Fit decks while having higher CMC cards still have a high % of the deck that are CMC 1 and CMC 2. So they kept CB in, you keep AD in.
tomatojim
12-16-2014, 12:12 PM
No they do not. Nic Fit decks while having higher CMC cards still have a high % of the deck that are CMC 1 and CMC 2. So they kept CB in, you keep AD in.
thanks for the fast response!
I guess that makes sense, especially considering that Pfire is actually good against them (and Decay gets rid of RiP as well).
Arianrhod
12-16-2014, 03:47 PM
It's very pilot-dependent. Some will, some won't. There isn't really any way to know for sure. Decay is worth leaving in regardless because of random bullshit like Energy Field / Back to Basics (I know, I know, but I've had it boarded in vs me at times). It's also our primary way of solving Sensei's Top. Decaying Top in response to a fetch is very powerful. I wouldn't board any Decays out vs Miracles regardless of the Counterbalance situation, and in fact would board extra copies in if not maindecking them already.
sdematt
12-16-2014, 06:09 PM
So a turn 2 Siege Rhino is good against Delver. That is all.
Forest, pass.
Vet explorer, play Stronghold, sacrifice Vet, search for Forest Plains, Rhino. Ka. Boom.
-Matt
tomatojim
12-16-2014, 06:11 PM
It's very pilot-dependent. Some will, some won't. There isn't really any way to know for sure. Decay is worth leaving in regardless because of random bullshit like Energy Field / Back to Basics (I know, I know, but I've had it boarded in vs me at times). It's also our primary way of solving Sensei's Top. Decaying Top in response to a fetch is very powerful. I wouldn't board any Decays out vs Miracles regardless of the Counterbalance situation, and in fact would board extra copies in if not maindecking them already.
Yeah, it doesn't make that much sense boarding (some) Decays out with hindsight. And if it's only for their SB-options or Cliques/Snapcaster to be able to attack Jace.
jbone2016
12-16-2014, 06:34 PM
Yeah, it doesn't make that much sense boarding (some) Decays out with hindsight. And if it's only for their SB-options or Cliques/Snapcaster to be able to attack Jace.
I usually side out 2-3 Vets, 2 StP, a couple of therapy for thrun, SoFaF, SoFaI, 1 Canonist and 2 memorcides.
Then again....I've rarely beat it as well.
litenkatt
12-17-2014, 03:14 AM
Has anyone been brewing any sweet bug lists lately?
Here's one that recently did good
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/117438
I think the list is okay. But I wonder if not dig is better than cruise here. Also I'd like to fit in a Karn.. perhaps instead of sagu mauler
Bobmans
12-17-2014, 04:12 AM
A specific SB question: Does a Miracles pilot side out the Counterbalances against us, since we have a strange curve and decays? And hence should I side out some (or all) of my decays (at least against the 4-Ponder-list)? My opponent from R1 said he did not side them out.
Greetings!
The other day i read this in the Miracles thread about the Nic Fit match up. I do not fully agree, but be the judge yourself:
I can help you with the nic fit part. I played nothing but nic fit for over year and still regularly play against it in locals events. There are many subarchtypes of the deck: punishing fire, Scape-wish, BUG PW control, BUG or BWG pod, or just GBx goodstuff piles. However, the strategy to beat them is mostly the same.
If they are smart they will SB out veteran explorers against you. Don't waste removal on this guy unless its stop a therapy or scapeshift. You getting 2 lands is better than them getting 2 lands most of the time.
Unless you see some pfire, academy recotor or recurring nightmare shinanigans, dont bother with GY hate. Its usually just Vet, Therapy and maybe 1 other card like eternal witness that it will effect.
Jace is king. Batterskull is also great. Non-fire builds cannot effectively remove these cards. Karakas+legend is also near unbeatable for them.
CB is pretty weak since their curve is varied and they have deed, decay and a GSZ target to kill CB.
Entreat can still steal games, but you will have to bait out deeds first.
Keep in FoW. They have a lot of meh cards, but their haymakers are must counters and this is a matchup you will regularly be snapcasting forces.
Some nic fitters think slaughter games or surgical effects are the key to winning this matchups(naming jace, entreat or FoW usually.). Those cards are terrible, but still vary your wincons so you don't get blown out, and be aware of surgical's interaction with top/miracles.
Using Philips standard 4 ponder setup, I would board like this typically:
-4 CB
-1 Stp
-2 REB
+1 Counterspell
+2 Priest
+2 Clique
+1 Judgment
+1 W/T
Against the BUG decks you want REBS. Against scapeshift you need to treat them a bit more like combo (less removal more counters BEB and counterbalance are ok). Against Pfire, you can treat them more like Jund (GY, EE or moon are all good, maybe keep in some CB but over-rely on them).
EDIT: I should add except for punishing fire version, we are favored. That matchup is even to unfavored. The GBW lists are the easiest. The BUG lists are probably 55/45, scapeshift is closer to 60/40. I don't normally say this, but the legend build, or SFM builds are definitely better positioned. The games go super long and Batterskull or legend + Karakas are very tough for them to beat.
tomatojim
12-17-2014, 04:50 AM
The other day i read this in the Miracles thread about the Nic Fit match up. I do not fully agree, but be the judge yourself:
Yup, I read that as well, so at least for punishing builds it seems reasonable to keep the Decays in, since you (could) encounter Priest, RiP, CB and Clique. Killing Top like Arianrhod mentioned or an Angel so their damage isn't lethal can also be relevant.
Do you side out all Explorers against them? I did, but maybe that's just because I want 2/3 of my SB against Miracles. Maybe you should keep one in just to be able to tutor for it in some weird situations.
That's where I'm at right now, tell me if it's too much or has general flaws:
In: 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Needle, 2x Slaughter, 1x Grip, 3x REB
Out: 1x Ooze, 1x PFire, 4x VetEx, 1x Baloth, 2x Therapy, 1x Witness
Golgari Charm is also a way to deal with Enchantments or X/1 creatures, but I'm not sure I want that as well.
Has anyone been brewing any sweet bug lists lately?
Here's one that recently did good
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/117438
I think the list is okay. But I wonder if not dig is better than cruise here. Also I'd like to fit in a Karn.. perhaps instead of sagu mauler
Sure, I posted a list a week or so ago.
Here is where I am now:
Lands (20)
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures (10)
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifact (1)
1 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantment (3)
3 Pernicious Deed
Instant (16)
1 Golgari Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
Sorcery (8)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Ponder
4 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard
1 Empty the Pits
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pact of Negation
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Hatred
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
I cannot determine yet which version is stronger right now between my former post or this new list. Each list has its pros and cons.
Link to the former post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=854002&viewfull=1#post854002
Bobmans
12-17-2014, 05:51 AM
Yup, I read that as well, so at least for punishing builds it seems reasonable to keep the Decays in, since you (could) encounter Priest, RiP, CB and Clique. Killing Top like Arianrhod mentioned or an Angel so their damage isn't lethal can also be relevant.
Do you side out all Explorers against them? I did, but maybe that's just because I want 2/3 of my SB against Miracles. Maybe you should keep one in just to be able to tutor for it in some weird situations.
That's where I'm at right now, tell me if it's too much or has general flaws:
In: 2x Thoughtseize, 2x Needle, 2x Slaughter, 1x Grip, 3x REB
Out: 1x Ooze, 1x PFire, 4x VetEx, 1x Baloth, 2x Therapy, 1x Witness
Golgari Charm is also a way to deal with Enchantments or X/1 creatures, but I'm not sure I want that as well.
Personally i run 3 Vet and 4 DRS with 3 Carpet of Flowers in the board. This to avoid the akward situation of getting mana screwed against decks where i boarded out all Vet's. The upside of using DRS is that it eventually costs resources of the Miracles pilot to remove it. If he does i like to be able to extract either Terminus or STP. Also i really like Slaughter Games in this MU. Removing Entreat and Jace shuts down their main wincon. Offcourse they still run Clique, SCM, Priests and whatnot, but we can PFire and Abrupt Decay.
Switching Cabal Therapies for Thoughtseize is a bit weird, but understandable if you have trouble hitting correct cards with the therapy (experience?). You could offcourse just add the TS and run 6 discard. Needles are a bit akward also because naming SDT shuts down your own. I would say board in one to be able to shut down Karakas or Helm, but only if you know they run it. The 4 ponder build often does not.
Golgari Charm might be better against lists running RiP + Helm, against the legends build i would just go with AD and PFire sinse those are better at doing the job. AD decay hits most annoying stuff anyway. Also Krosan Grip is powerful against Miracles. REB is also a solid choice although i personally wouldn't bring more than 2. I found that playing against most decks it is better to just keep pressure and let them drain themselves instead of trying to prevent them from stopping you (this sounds logical?) with Miracles being no exeption other than SDT (+CB) keeps it going.
Lastly i also like to have a combat walker around against Miracles like Garruk since if it resolves it is hard for them to remove it outside of Council's Judgement. Spitting tokens will overwhelm them eventually unless they Entreat for lethal against you.
Having said this i must also add that i have some experience playing against Miracles and sometimes i also play Miracles, but it is still limited. The problem is that in our testing group we have no Miracles player to consistantly test against. So i can understand if people would not agree with my mostly theorycrafting.
tomatojim
12-17-2014, 06:07 AM
@Bobmans
I might try it with keeping all Therapies in and bringing only 2 REBs and 1 Needle in.
I'm also thinking of playing extra copies of DRS or Carpet of Flowers in the board, maybe instead of the 3rd REB, for the matchups where I don't want Explorer. ATM I run a 4/1 split Ex/DRS.
Luckily Garruk is already in the main deck to spam tokens. :wink:
My experience with Miracles is mostly based on the RiP/Helm version, because that's the only one that exists in our local testing group. So I have less problems boarding against that version than the normal 4-Ponder-list.
Edit: Surgical Extraction will also come in, mostly for Terminus, but it's also great with Therapy.
Arksz
12-17-2014, 09:29 AM
Does anyone still play any pod lists? Would be cool to see an updated version. Have been playing elves recently and want to try out something different.
moseby
12-17-2014, 09:39 AM
Has anyone been brewing any sweet bug lists lately?
Here's one that recently did good
http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/117438
I think the list is okay. But I wonder if not dig is better than cruise here. Also I'd like to fit in a Karn.. perhaps instead of sagu mauler
Its not your typical build and I don't have the list on me but it is along the lines of Fabino's list but much more streamline; 2 Titania (may go 3) and 3 GSZ, and more trinket mages, also no planeswalkers. Note I have not play tested it but when gold fishing Titania usually starts goes bonkers around turn 6.
bryanzoll
12-17-2014, 10:39 AM
The other day i read this in the Miracles thread about the Nic Fit match up. I do not fully agree, but be the judge yourself:
(not going to re-quote the whole thread)
But I highly disagree with what the person was saying from the Miracles perspective, especially about slaughter games. I played miracles for close to a year so I have some experience from the other side of that fence. Depending on the miracles build, slaughter games either will flat out win a game completely, or slow the miracles player down to a point where they won't be able to keep up. In a traditional miracles build, there are 2 win-cons, Jace and Entreat...if you SG the EtA, the game is essentially over as long as you can apply persistent pressure (which should be easy at that point). In miracle builds where they run MD Vensers, V Cliques, etc. you still name EtA, but then it becomes for the Nic Fit player a race to land threats and keep them from killing you.
In either case...CB should not come out on their end...any Miracles player that boards out 4x CB is basically giving you the game in my opinion. At that point, they can't stop you from casting 1 of your 8 discard spells (incl flashback CT). If you just flat out wreck their hand, good luck having them recover from that (or any deck let alone).
I have experience and have play tested the miracles matchup a bit with ScapeWish. Normally, I will keep in 2 Veteran explorers. A couple of reasons, 1) I board in Carpet of Flowers, if I accelerate their lands and they get islands, they just further accelerate my game plan and we are still at an advantage...2) Probably the best of reasons, it presents a 20 turn clock or a threat they need to waste StP on. Will I bash face for 1 each turn? Hell yeah I would, before they know it they will be at 12 or so life and in a position where they need to start thinking about removing it. That right there is +1 in my opinion.
Since I play ScapeWish this is what my boarding plan looks like:
+2 Carpet of Flower
+2 REB
+2 Slaughter Games
-2 Veteran Explorer
-1 Obstinate Baloth
-1 Sakura Tribe Elder
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Pernicious Deed
Does anyone still play any pod lists? Would be cool to see an updated version. Have been playing elves recently and want to try out something different.
I pretty much gave up on pod after they printed treasure cruise (and then containment priest, woof). I am planning to go back to trying out pod versions, both BUG and Junk, next week. Titania is an intriguing card that I tried out in Maverick where it wasn't very good. I am going to try it in nic fit pod next, where it seems like you will actually be able to utilize it more effectively. I am planning on playing a sylvan safekeeper to "go off" with it but it wouldn't surprise me if that ended up being bad. I'll let the thread know how it goes.
Arksz
12-17-2014, 01:05 PM
I pretty much gave up on pod after they printed treasure cruise (and then containment priest, woof). I am planning to go back to trying out pod versions, both BUG and Junk, next week. Titania is an intriguing card that I tried out in Maverick where it wasn't very good. I am going to try it in nic fit pod next, where it seems like you will actually be able to utilize it more effectively. I am planning on playing a sylvan safekeeper to "go off" with it but it wouldn't surprise me if that ended up being bad. I'll let the thread know how it goes.
You can still gain tons of value off ETBs and the Pod. Playing the value game kind of sucks against cruise? The other variants still fall prey to GSZ being hit by containment priest. Just curious as to why BUG pod isn't played as much.
uncletiggy
12-18-2014, 01:17 AM
@ honeyt in reference to the abzan list you posted the prime time seems awkward with only one karakas as a non mana target. Has it been worth it for you I feel like either other titan would be more threatening.
sdematt
12-18-2014, 03:25 AM
Tiggy, want to post your list again?
-Matt
tomatojim
12-18-2014, 09:12 AM
Does anyone still play any pod lists? Would be cool to see an updated version. Have been playing elves recently and want to try out something different.
At our local legacy event last week there was a Pod-List in the top8 (36 players):
08. Moritz Mathes
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice Of Resurgence
1 Spike Feeder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Bone Shredder
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Siege Rhino
1 Ranger Of Eos
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
1 Archangel Of Thune
1 Shriekmaw
1 Armada Wurm
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Birthing Pod
1 Batterskull
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard:
1 Chaines Of Mephistopheles
1 Aegis Of The Gods
1 Eidolon Of Rhetoric
1 Choke
1 Nether Void
1 Grave Pact
1 Painful Quandary
1 Curse Of Death's Hold
1 Academy Rector
1 Voice Of Resurgence
1 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Duress
1 Inquisition Of Kozilek
1 Hymn To Tourach
I can't really say anything about it, since I'm not into Pod, just wanted to share the list.
Greetings
sdematt
12-18-2014, 10:53 AM
I've played both styles, Pod and not Pod. When Pod gets up and running, you're likely winning. The problem is, if you don't get Pod, you're stuck with some very poorly curved creatures. Basically, the deck becomes a Survival deck without Survival because you are playing quite a few bullet creatures. I like the non-Pod builds just due to consistency.
-Matt
uncletiggy
12-18-2014, 01:02 PM
This is where I'm at currently.
3 Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Seige Rhino
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Strangleroot Geist (flex)
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Plow
1 Funeral Charm (flex)
1 Golgari Charm (flex)
3 GSZ
2 Sylvan Library
1 Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
6 Basics
6 Duals
7 Fetches
2 Phyrexian tower
Sb:
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Krosan Grip
1 Council's Judgement
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
I'm debating on the deluge/deed split in the board and whether it should go the other way. The geist could be plow #3 but its been so good i cant bring myself to cut it. Whether or not I really need the relic of progenitus or if it should be another surgical. I havent fully developed my board plans for each match so im not sure yet if I have any matchups where I have way too much to bring out and not enough to bring in.
Bobmans
12-18-2014, 03:30 PM
I have been pondering about the spot of Primeval Titan in my PFire list. Rampaging Baloth will be replacing his spot coming tournament. It has some solid synergy next to Courser of Kruphix, Sensei's Divining Top, Veteran Explorer and fetchlands. It might just make more impact on the board then PrimeTime. Havent actually played it yet so i am blind on if it actually works.
Also i have been testing Sarkhan the Mad and it felt a bit weird. Sometimes it does nothing and sometimes it is bonkers. It goes to the sideboard for now, while Vraska is staying mainboard. Everytime i resolved her she was more then usefull and helped me either stabilize the board or win with it.
Also Garruk, Apex Predator is on my radar and i am going to test it soon as a replacement of Sarkhan in the board but i am a bit worried that 7 mana is to much.
bryanzoll
12-18-2014, 06:26 PM
Also Garruk, Apex Predator is on my radar and i am going to test it soon as a replacement of Sarkhan in the board but i am a bit worried that 7 mana is to much.
I have played with Garruk, AP in roughly 15ish matches. Conclusion on it was the same as any 7 drop PW...when it sticks, the game is over...when its stuck in your hand, life sucks.
I currently play ScapeWish without any PWs, there just isn't any need right now. I have been fooling around with Punishing Fit and I wouldn't touch my Lili count.
SevenInTheQueue
12-18-2014, 06:36 PM
After toying with various Pod lists, I feel that BUG is the best option if you're looking to take that route. It offers the best creatures for both podding away (Baleful Strix, Glen Elendra Archmage, etc) and podding into (Phantasmal Image, Frost Titan, Consecrated Sphinx), and ultimately allows for stronger match-up flexibility.
HoneyT
12-18-2014, 09:02 PM
@ honeyt in reference to the abzan list you posted the prime time seems awkward with only one karakas as a non mana target. Has it been worth it for you I feel like either other titan would be more threatening.
Nope. That was just a typing error on my part. Titan is not supposed to be in the list at all. Should just be 60 cards.
sdematt
12-19-2014, 12:31 PM
I'm playing Karakas as my 61st to bounce Thrun and Sigarda, it's been fine.
Went 3-1 yesterday losing to Burn and beating Elves, Mono White Stax, and something else.
Lovely play against my Elves opponent. He's at 3 before he stabilizes and builds up enough blockers against my massive Scooze. How does one get out of this? GSZ for Rhino, of course.
-Matt
MrShine
12-19-2014, 01:42 PM
Lovely play against my Elves opponent. He's at 3 before he stabilizes and builds up enough blockers against my massive Scooze. How does one get out of this? GSZ for Rhino, of course.
-Matt
RhinoBolts FTW
Seriously, though, JUNK Fit is looking super spicy right now. Matt, have you tested out Restoration Angel yet? I feel like the flexibility it provides would outweigh the "cuteness" factor. The usual arguments of it blocks Delver, dodges both [boring-non-rhino] Bolt and Decay apply.
What's better than a RhinoBolt? Instant speed RhinoBolts.
FTW, ofc.
SevenInTheQueue
12-19-2014, 05:02 PM
RhinoBolts FTW
Seriously, though, JUNK Fit is looking super spicy right now. Matt, have you tested out Restoration Angel yet? I feel like the flexibility it provides would outweigh the "cuteness" factor. The usual arguments of it blocks Delver, dodges both [boring-non-rhino] Bolt and Decay apply.
What's better than a RhinoBolt? Instant speed RhinoBolts.
FTW, ofc.
You're better off using the Resto Slot for another Rhino.
MrShine
12-19-2014, 05:12 PM
Probably true... Flying is moderately relative these days but yeah Rhino pretty much just does everything we need - even tramples through TNN
Bobmans
12-20-2014, 05:23 PM
Today i played my PFire list at a small tournament and went 3-2-1. Not the best results, but the list played awesome and was able to put on some serious fights.
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Rampaging Baloth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacomb
2 Wooded Foothills
Board
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Sarkhan the Mad
Round 1: UW Stasis 1-2
Game 1: I was able to get a DRS, Liliana and PFire + Grove online and he scooped with only a Tabernacle, some lands and a Howling Mine. Didn't know what he was on.
Game 2: I have some creatures, pyroblast and a GSZ. I used the Pyroblast on a Counterbalance and i nipped his life away over the turns. Finally i tap out for a GSZ into a Huntmaster and on his turn he lands Stasis and Root Maze.
Game 3: i opened with 2 Carpet of Flowers, Slaughter Games, Abrupt Decay, GSZ, Swamp and Mountain. I never find a green source and then Stasis plus Root Maze happened again.
Round 2: Burn 2-0
Not really sure how the games went, but both games i managed to stabilize midgame due to the amount of lifegain of DRS and Courser and Huntermaster seals both games.
Round 3: Dredge 1-2
Game 1: I get some decend board presence, but i couldn't find an answer for 8-9 Zombie tokens and a 16/16 grave-troll. DRS really stalled the game, but i guess Scavenging Ooze could have been a better option for GSZ during the first turns.
Game 2: I am able to slow him with a DRS and land a Scooze to take over. He has like 13 Zombie tokens and a 8/8 grave-troll, but i find a Pernicious Deed and have a 10/10 Scooze plus a Huntmaster that flips and takes his Putrid Imp to seal the deal.
Game 3: i mull to 5 and keep 2 lands, Cabal Therapy, Surgical Extraction and a Huntmaster. He lands a Gemstone, LED and a Pimp and eot discards a Bridge, Ichorid and a Thug. I get greedy and remove the Ichorid's to slow him down and realize i should have waited for a Narcomoeba to trigger and remove that instead. I only draw into more lands and lost horribly.
Round 4: Burn 2-1 (treasure cruise splash).
Game 1: He lands an early Bloom Moon and i have some business with DRS, Veteran Explorer and Courser of Kruphix. He lands a Sulfuric Vortex and i have to blow the board with Pernicous Deed. I was on 1 life and resolve a Thragtusk ftw.
Game 2: He has a nuts hand and burns me down to fast before i can stabilize.
Game 3: I can slow him down with DRS and removing Eidolon from the board, but eventually both board are cleared and i land a Vraska, the Unseen. She ultimates and he has only 2 Lightning Bolts when i attack with my 3 lethal tokens.
Round 5: Mono black discard 2-0
Game 1: We trade resources back and forth while i am able to land the Rampaging Baloth. He answers with a Toxic Deluge and a Maze of Ith. But i have a Volrath's Stronghold and recast it. Next turn i drop a land and i crack a fetch. He couldn't recover.
Game 2: He keeps a one land hand and never got the second and scoops on turn 4.
Round 6: ID and we split the prize
I really like my current list and will stick to Rampaging Baloth and Vraska the Unseen. Vraska doesn't look that great on paper, but everytime it hits the board it puts on so much pressure. Rampaging Baloth and the Two Towers where often not needed, but when i shifted into longgame and got to use them those cards sealed the deal. Having seen the Baloth in action i really feel it puts on more pressure on the board then Primeval Titan does. Also 4 Deathrite Shaman is incredible good. If they stick they do some heavy lifting and if they remove it then it is not a problem since the deck puts on so much pressure that eventually they run out of resources. 3 Sensei's Divining Top feels fine, with 4 i found that i was sometimes flooded with it and with 3 i mostly get on midgame when i start to run out of gas. Courser of Kruphix is criminally underplayed. It is so awesome and really speeds up the game when under a Sensei's Divining Top. I haven't resolved a Sarkhan the Mad in any game and i am didn't feel i wanted in any of the games i played. Still gonna keep him in the board for further testing. No changes for this list.
sdematt
12-20-2014, 06:41 PM
Just updating y'all with my current list:
4 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
3 Thoughtseize
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
-Matt
uncletiggy
12-20-2014, 07:38 PM
How has path been for you matt I suggested it a while back and caught a lot of flack for loosing the ability to swords for life in a pinch in the burn matchup. Im also curious how 8 basics and three utlity lands has been, do you find yourself mulling from mana constraints often.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.