[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Brael]

1) Being able to cast LL by T2
- You need DRS T1
- You need Vet T1 + Therapy T2 + 2 basic swamps (in your deck)
- You need creature T1 + tower T2

2) Being able to cast SLG by T3
- You need vet T1 + therapy T2
- You need Therapy T1 + GSZ T2
- You need Sakura T2
- You need creature T1 or T2 + Tower

This tells me that in my Nic Fit build, I have near the same odds to cast LL by T3 than SLG by T3 as I don't play DRS. Casting LL by T2 is pure luck.
Or in order to be able to cast LL by T2, you have to tweak your list.
I prefer standing by SLG to be honest.

I don't think this table is quite accurate because your only red source is a Taiga, Vet and Sakura can't get it for you.

Red in this situation is harder to come across than double black, because you're likely looking at needing two fetchlands since one land must be a Taiga.

The comparison only works if you include a basic Mountain in the manabase.

That said, a T2 Lost Legacy requires generating 1BBB so it's not exactly realistic either.

[Ralf]

I don't think this table is quite accurate because your only red source is a Taiga, Vet and Sakura can't get it for you.

Red in this situation is harder to come across than double black, because you're likely looking at needing two fetchlands since one land must be a Taiga.

The comparison only works if you include a basic Mountain in the manabase.

That said, a T2 Lost Legacy requires generating 1BBB so it's not exactly realistic either.

That was a quick demonstration that didn't take into account mana issue/availability.

But to be more precise, I should have said with 1 fetch in hand.

Generally speaking you will almost always get the Taiga first (with your first fetch) against combo decks. 8 fetches -> 62 % to have 1 fetch in hand.
The same can be said about LL by T2. You should go bayou + scrub (or whatever combination of any dual land that produces at least B) and always leave 2 swamps in your deck if you try to go for a T2 LL.

Anyway, this was only to draw a general idea rather than pointing to perfect statistics.

[cherson]

@ Junk Control Fit:

This is where I am now:

1) I thought I could get away without SLG. I was wrong.
2) One should really test Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. She has won me many many games.
3) I have pondered for ages between Sakura / DRS or a mix of both. Finally, when you play bombs, you want mana. DRS is way to fragile and does not synergize well with Deed.
4) Liliana of the Veil is a hell of a card but Junk Fit, as it is, is not a really good home for her. If you want to play her, I advise you play some cards that synergize well with her (Lingering souls is a good example)
5) Sideboard is a dedication to what I am facing right now. The ability to go even bigger with Baneslayer post side solves numerous headaches
6) Don't ask, Miracle is still not a balanced MU...



My deck looks like this:


Creature (15)
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Meren of Clan Ne Toth
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Siege Rhino
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Veteran Explorer

Enchantment (3)
3x Pernicious Deed

Land (21)
2x Bayou
2x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath

Artifact (3)
3x Sensei's Divining Top

Sorcery (10)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Painful Truths
1x Vindicate

Instant (6)
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Path to Exile

Planeswalker (2)
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad


Not quite sure abt meren and two trecker, but that guy is just awesome.
What exactly makes nissa that strong and how does she win u games compared to other walkers?
0/1 token doesn't seem that strong.

[Brael]

Settled on 75/76 slots for my upcoming 10 week league. The final question is over a Knight of the Reliquary, I have through tomorrow to finalize it. Despite knowing for certain that there's going to be a few combo decks, I'm choosing to ignore Lost Legacy and Slaughter Games, instead relying on the permission in all the other decks in the league to keep it in check. I hope it doesn't hurt me too bad.

Settled on no 3 drop removal spells, and cut a Deed with sweepers in the board if I need them. I'm pretty much all in on the CA plan with 22/61 cards in the deck being devoted to CA or CQ.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures 21
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Spells 13
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay

Enchantment 1
1 Pernicious Deed

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard 16 (needs one cut)
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed

Thoughts on the cut? I'm leaning towards Toxic Deluge but not yet certain. Or, is there anything major in this list that I'm missing? I know it's pretty non traditional but I want to see if the bias towards humans can pay off (I've certainly been going on about it long enough, this will be some good solid testing beyond a handful of games). I already know from previous versions that the low curve, ca, ramp combo works well to keep a lot of velocity going.

Maybe Engineered Explosives could be a good sweeper effect to pair with Bob? I've never really thought much about that card in Legacy, only Modern outside of partnering with Trinket Mage.


What exactly makes nissa that strong and how does she win u games compared to other walkers?
0/1 token doesn't seem that strong.

A 0/1 is plenty strong on a tick up. I would prefer Sorin, LoI in the slot because I like the lifelink but 3 CMC is a big deal. Making guys while growing loyalty is pretty solid. I do wonder if Liliana, the Last Hope wouldn't be better though. The +1 is very similar (+1 to negate 1 attacker), they both start at 3 and have a game winning ult at 7 with a mediocre -2.

[jbone2016]

Could you please be a little more specific when you have time ?

I've jammed some tests with the list.
Here are a few impressions:

1) Some starting hands are really awkward.
2) I did't like Meren (or maybe I didn't understand how to play it in the first place)
3) Sometimes attacking once with a sneaked Emmy isn't enough
4) Never felt like I needed Griselbrand. The only time I could have cast it, I was 1 black mana short...
5) The deck is playing too much with sorcery speed. This was bad against Infect (for example)
6) I felt I was lacking a tutor (wasn't playing sidisi though), there were a few games where I was sitting with an active sneak and no creature to be sneaked... -> cross point n°3.
7) I was not a fan of Tireless. Effect was powerful only once but slow as hell.
8) I somehow missed a "playable" & "zenithable" creature that could block opposing flying creatures. A one-of Ishkanah might do the trick.
9) 2 towers + primeval Titan is busted. Sneaking + recurring a Thragtusk made my day. There is maybe not enough creatures with an ETB trigger to abuse.
10) Stronghold doesn't get you to draw. A creature with a "draw" ETB trigger might be needed.

I'll try to tweak the list a bit next time.

1) I will agree to that. Depends on the matchup and what role we want to take while thinking over our hand.
2) Meren is very grindy. Many matchups I seem to take her out (same with nightmare)
3) More fatty boom booms needed? I always like a worldspine wurm myself
4) Never cast a griselbrand. I did however hardcast a rune scarred demon. That felt good.
5) Eh. 2 decays are pretty low. Board cards help (grip, sudden shock, night of souls' betrayal (maybe main for the last one) Blood moon isn't bad either.
6) empath and rune scarred seem like enough. intent seems like it could be cut.
7) Had success with him before wasn't revelant these matches, however.
8) Ishkanah seems reasonable, delirium seems within grasp at times
9) I wasn't a fan of primetime, so I cut it. Tusk and nightmare=fun times.
10) Wall of Blossoms?

Intent is probably coming out for the 4th sneak. Not sure about anything else yet. Of course, not sure when I will be able to test it again before Mil/Eternal/Baltimore.

[Echelon]

Concerning Woodland Bellower: Danger Of Cool Things. Consider what'd change if it were just another Fierce Empath.


That said, a T2 Lost Legacy requires generating 1BBB so it's not exactly realistic either.

The BB part isn't the problem, it's having 3 mana on T2. It forces you to have on of the following openings:
- T1: (fetch into) Bayou, GSZ for Arbor, T2: B producing land
- T1: Fetchland, DRS. T2: B producing land unless you got one on T1
- T1: The Cabal Therapy -> Veteran Explorer opening
- T1: The Veteran Explorer -> Phyrexian Tower opening
- T1: Fetch Dryad Arbor, T2 tap it & sac it to Phyrexian Tower (yes, it sucks, but it is a possibility)

[MD.Ghost]

Could you please be a little more specific when you have time ?

I've jammed some tests with the list.
Here are a few impressions:

1) Some starting hands are really awkward.
2) I did't like Meren (or maybe I didn't understand how to play it in the first place)
3) Sometimes attacking once with a sneaked Emmy isn't enough
4) Never felt like I needed Griselbrand. The only time I could have cast it, I was 1 black mana short...
5) The deck is playing too much with sorcery speed. This was bad against Infect (for example)
6) I felt I was lacking a tutor (wasn't playing sidisi though), there were a few games where I was sitting with an active sneak and no creature to be sneaked... -> cross point n°3.
7) I was not a fan of Tireless. Effect was powerful only once but slow as hell.
8) I somehow missed a "playable" & "zenithable" creature that could block opposing flying creatures. A one-of Ishkanah might do the trick.
9) 2 towers + primeval Titan is busted. Sneaking + recurring a Thragtusk made my day. There is maybe not enough creatures with an ETB trigger to abuse.
10) Stronghold doesn't get you to draw. A creature with a "draw" ETB trigger might be needed.

I'll try to tweak the list a bit next time.

I will also write it down for you (keep in mind i test Sneak Fit feat. Nahiri+PFire!) so you get a bunch of ideas from different users/builds (i always liked the teamwork here, it is not common in every thread)

1) yes but i feel it gets better if you a) lower the curve and/or b) play PFire as another card that can be cast turn 2 or if your manabase is under attack
2) Meren is here for the grind, but she has also a solid body to stop all the small legacy creatures and she will not die to decay/bolt. Note that she also act as "Eternal Witness" because she will bring back a creature card to your hand at the same turn she entered the battlefield. I only got her out together with Sneak Attack in one game, but that was really funny and i won that game easily. Overall i only tutored for her if i immediately needed a body and can't go up to Zenith for Tusk. I also play with Karakas as a little bonus point for Meren.
3) Right, that is also a reason i ultimate with Nahiri for Inferno Titan or Grisel
4) I tutored for Grisel if Emrakul isn't enough to steal the game. Drawing 7-14 cards is still bonkers and Grisel can still lead to a devastating teamup with Emrakul or any Titan. Gaining Life if you sneak in Grisel as a deadly blocker can also be relevant.
5) right - it is better if you also play with PFire and you can still grap Kolaghan's Command, Jund Charm etc.
6) That was the point for me to cut 1 Sneak and 1 Sidisi and go with 2 Nahiri and 3 Sneak; Nahiri might stretch the manabase but she works fine with Sneak-Concept, PFire, even with Meren if you discard a creature and she acts as removal if needed.
7) Yeah it was one cut i made for PFire because i can't imagine to durdle around with him or tutor him with Zenith (heck even Courser of Kruphix seems better here: blocks, ramps, gain life, work well with top)
8) Arbor Colossus if you need also a big beater that can also deal with gofy, angler, smasher and can destroy even big flyers like Emrakul etc. or Ishkanah, Grafwidow (sadly the missed "deathtouch" for her...) if you fear the GGG of Colossus. Ishkanah and Delirium seems manageable here (bonus points if you run also Nahiri + Karakas^^) If it is only for Delver(size-Creatures) Penumbra Spider is also good enough, especially if you can bring it back. You can always play Stingerfling Spider to shot something from the sky. Overall with PFire Flyers are easier to handle. If Meren doesn't make the cut for you she would be my first card to switch for a "reach" Creature.
9) Titan + 2 Towers are more or less a backup plan for me, most games i didn't need him but he also got stronger since i tinker with PFire(Groves) and Karakas (beating Show&Tell with Titan into Karakas feels really nice)
10) You still can spin Top for it, having Nahiri on the field can also help

[cherson]

A 0/1 is plenty strong on a tick up. I would prefer Sorin, LoI in the slot because I like the lifelink but 3 CMC is a big deal. Making guys while growing loyalty is pretty solid. I do wonder if Liliana, the Last Hope wouldn't be better though. The +1 is very similar (+1 to negate 1 attacker), they both start at 3 and have a game winning ult at 7 with a mediocre -2.

agree that 3cmc is a thing but for the moment I am not really convinced but have to admit that I didn't test it so far.
I don't agree on the game braking ult of liliana, we don't have zombies therefore we get max 2 x 2/2, right?
nissa ult is serious CA therefore I would use her over liliana last hope.

I am still considering liliana of the veil but your concerns are worth to consider.

[Navsi]

Concerning Woodland Bellower: Danger Of Cool Things. Consider what'd change if it were just another Fierce Empath.

At the moment, the list runs 4 fatties / Empath targets: 2 Titans, Griselbrand, Emrakul.

- Primeval and Inferno titan give us grinding power and removal, respectively, and can be hardcast.
- Griselbrand gives us game in situations where Emrakul isn't lethal, and can maybe be hardcast.
- Emrakul kills pretty much everyone.

I am saying we can potentially drop Griselbrand, since he's very hard to cast and in most situations is worse than Emrakul off Sneak Attack. He grinds well, but we only need to grind if we can't oneshot people.
Adding Bellower means we can sneak for Bellower -> Empath -> Emrakul and attack for 21, which means we don't need to grind games out as frequently due to higher oneshot potential.
Bellower is also better than Griselbrand without Sneak, since it's way more hardcastable and finds Witness (which is really handy) and Reclamation Sage (which can be awesome) as well as grinding by finding a Titan to drop next turn.

Running an additional Empath does the same thing, but:
- Casting it for a big monster means we don't have board presence until next turn, rather than having a 6/5 to hold the line for a turn.
- We don't get the oneshot potential with Emrakul
- We don't get Reclamation Sage utility as easily
- It's exactly the same with Sneak Attack active (assuming R is easier on our available lands than 2G)

Positives of Empath over Bellower:
- If we have a spare turn to cast empath, we can potentially drop a Titan one turn sooner if we're racing to cast Inferno vs. Elves or similar

I think it's worth testing at the very least.

[Echelon]

@Cherson: First you get 2 (0+2) zombies, then you get 4 (2+2). The turn after that you get another 8 (2+4+2), then another 16 (2+4+8+2) and so on and so on. The number of tokens you have on the field doubles every single turn. Your snowball quickly turns into an avalanche.

Nowhere on Liliana it says the Zombies in question can't be tokens :wink:.

[Brael]

Concerning Woodland Bellower: Danger Of Cool Things. Consider what'd change if it were just another Fierce Empath.



The BB part isn't the problem, it's having 3 mana on T2. It forces you to have on of the following openings:
- T1: (fetch into) Bayou, GSZ for Arbor, T2: B producing land
- T1: Fetchland, DRS. T2: B producing land unless you got one on T1
- T1: The Cabal Therapy -> Veteran Explorer opening
- T1: The Veteran Explorer -> Phyrexian Tower opening
- T1: Fetch Dryad Arbor, T2 tap it & sac it to Phyrexian Tower (yes, it sucks, but it is a possibility)

I was mainly thinking about the Tower/Therapy openings. Arbor and DRS give you a little more leeway.

Seriously using Lost Legacy might want a Tower heavier build.


I don't agree on the game braking ult of liliana, we don't have zombies therefore we get max 2 x 2/2, right?

nissa ult is serious CA therefore I would use her over liliana last hope.


It's 2+# zombies you control every turn so assuming none die your board grows 2/6/14 and so on. It gets out of control really fast. That said this is legacy where creatures don't necessarily win the game but it does put your opponent on a clock. It deals with decks like Delver, Miracles, and D&T well.

[Ulysse95]

Hi,

I was thinking about Clone Carapace (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte?ref=som143) in a sneak Fit shell.
I will give it a try. Does someone already think/try/cut it?
Furthermore, it fills the 9) pointed by Ralf.

[Navsi]

Hi,

I was thinking about Clone Carapace (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte?ref=som143) in a sneak Fit shell.
I will give it a try. Does someone already think/try/cut it?
Furthermore, it fills the 9) pointed by Ralf.

We only play ~4-5 fatties. You need to hit one in your top 4, not your hand, so your odds are pretty terrible even if you have Top - and if you do have Top, why not just make the guy and Sneaak him in directly instead of waiting a turn?

Summoner's Egg is probably just better.

[Echelon]

Summoner's Egg is probably just better.

Dude, Summoner's Egg is the shit. It's quite a bit harder to pull off than Sneak Attack, but it also gives greater reward.

It's also cheaper and easier to set up than the Clone thing.

[sdematt]

Dropped SFM to go back up in Deeds and such. Batterskull x2 without SFM is the real deal. I really like it.

[Brael]

Dropped SFM to go back up in Deeds and such. Batterskull x2 without SFM is the real deal. I really like it.

Our lists are a bit different, but very similar in spirit. You might want to try out either Knight of the Reliquary or Ranger of Eos. I made the connection a few weeks back that Ranger of Eos and SFM are basically the same card, except Ranger is a bit less dependent on having other bodies. Basically, they're both a non GSZ tutor package that require X slots in your deck. Since we usually run some DRS though the Ranger requires a bit less.

I tried the full SFM package and didn't like it, so I then dropped to a half package (2 equipment, 2 SFM, effectively 3 copies of each equipment in the deck) but I still didn't like it. So from there I went to 1 Ranger, 2 tutor targets (+2 DRS, 4 Vet) which is effectively 2 of each tutor target and I think it strikes the right balance. At it's worst it's Harmonize, and at it's best it's a hexproof 3/2, 7/7, and 1/1 for 2 turns worth of mana and 1 card invested. I love tutoring up Sylvan Safekeeper+Endless One, so many decks just can't handle that, and if they can you tutor up a couple DRS for reach.

I'm trying yet another mini package too with Knight of the Reliquary. Basically, Primeval Titan goes against my deck building instincts with this deck. As I've said a million times I like low-medium cost with CA in order to get a lot of velocity going, it makes the opponent trade aggressively and lose when they can no longer do so. All this talk of Primeval Titan with the two towers has had me thinking though, I like the idea of Primeval+Volraths but it's above the CMC I put in my decks. Knight is basically half a Primeval for half the cost. Should it stick, it can get Volraths and then I can permanently recur the big body. Alternatively I draw Volraths and Knight becomes an amazing GSZ target when I'm in that 4-5 mana range that can't pick up a Sigarda.

Both have worked well for me lately (I just added the KotR a couple days ago but the value is already proven). I would highly recommend either if you're looking for another engine. KotR setting up shuffles for Top is pretty handy too, and in my build specifically I can even Cavern of Souls the Knight for resiliency.

[Ulysse95]

Hi!

Yesterday was an Eternal week-end trial. I wasn't sure yet about some slots of Sneak Fit and chose to come back to my Enchantement Fit, Nick Fist as I call it.
19 players, I get in top 8, and lose in demi.
For the records, I had only 2 losses, against the same player who went 5/0 then winner of the 8. And lost each and every starting toss...

Here my list:

1 [R] Bayou
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [US] Phyrexian Tower
3 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 [] Doomwake Giant
1 [JOU] Eidolon of Blossoms
1 [] Eternal Witness
2 [] Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [CMD] Veteran Explorer
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [] Faith's Fetters
1 [LG] Living Plane
1 [NE] Parallax Wave
2 [] Starfield of Nyx
3 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [] Inquisition of Kozilek
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 1 [JOU] Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 1 [ISD] Curse of Death's Hold
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [] Lost Legacy


[B]Round 1: 1/0 against 4c good stuff

Wasn't really relevant. The guy came back since 1 week from a 1 year break off magic.
Was a deck in an agro loam style with Bob, KoR and bloodbraid elfe.

First game, I sneakily put him into a lock.
Game 2, I finished by blowing is lands and having an army of mines to endure is big creatures (scavanging ooze and KoR).


Round 2: 2/1 against sneak & show

G1: Turn 1 he put in an island, I respond with a swamp and blind cabal on brainstorm. He had show&Tell, Progenitus and some other stuff.
So I 1 turn late to cabal the right card and died from that unmanaged progenitus.

Bring in 2 surgical, 2 lost legacy, 2 spirit of the labyrinth, seal and humility
Bring out giant, living plane, eidolon of blossom, courser, 1 gsz, 1 starfield

G2 & 3: Totaly ripped him appart with a mix of discard, surgical and lost legacy, with humility on the 2, staying on back up in hand letting the spirits doing the job on the 3


Round 3: 0/2 against 4c control

G1 He got me with a subtil mix of discard, kolagan command, countermagic and DrS/snap.
I got mana flooded after a few turns.

G2 I got full mana flooded... With like 3 active cards on 6 turns or more. I finally gave up with 3 lands in hand and 7 on the table.


Round 4: 2/1 against Opposition

First 1 I deed deal is small stuff, then I locked him with starfield.

The 2 he locked me with opposition and rampage me with garruk the next turn.

The 3, I turn 1 vet, turn 2 tower into Rector, turn 3 sterling grove.
He had a few creatures and put in a garruk. EoT I towered Rector into Giant, cleaning creatures, upkeep, I cracked the grove to draw sterling grove. And so I cleaned all is lands and killed is Garruk with my giant while some lands started to beat him.

Round 5: ID against a suspected merfolk.

Then top 8:

Quart: 2/0 against Affinity

Both games, I locked him with a very few remaining lif (1 the first, 6 the second one), with Starfield/deed.

Demi: 0/2 against 4C good stuff again.

Really hard to manage both discard, instant discard, decay and counters. Even with T0 leyline
When I tried to cabal for counters, I lost my card to Kolaghan Command and vice versa...
Some missplay from me, against a really good player (friend of mine, I know it), and really bad draws
Have to train for this kind of match up.

THOUGHTS:

Lost legacy was really good.
Perhaps bring in a 4th top and/or a sylvan library.
Didn't see city of solitud (I bring it against 4c and Opposition, but didn't saw it)
Also I somehow miss dead weight

[Zirath]

Hey folks,

I am going to throw out a list me and Arian were working on last month. Due to my time constraints, I wasn't able to progress with it as much as I would have liked. There are two builds and I figure some people can play around with them and figure stuff out:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Reflector Mage
4 Sanctum Prelate

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Collected Company

3 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Undeground Sea
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Force of Will
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Dismember
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Sanctum Prelate
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Collected Company

3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Dismember
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Collected Company
2 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution

Both lists aim to produce a semi-lock state while racing with a swarm plan. The first list is a little more reliable but the second list is more powerful.

I will eventually return to them but I have a bunch of stuff ahead in the queue before I can look at them (after EW probably).

[Echelon]

I got to jam Siege Rhinos for 8 hours+ last saturday. It was my first day of spinning Tops. I don't ever want to play Nic Fit without it again.

Observations:
- Tireless Tracker overperformed. It either died to removal ASAP or drew me 4/6 cards.
- Courser of Kruphix overperformed. Courser + Tracker is nasty. Courser + Top is nasty.
- Even though Big Sorin is overpowered as hell, I don't feel like I need it. I either want to replace it w/ Sorin, LoI or the green Geargolem. There were some moments where I would've wanted it badly.

I also found a nice way of dealing w/ Batterskull, by the way. Meren + random creature + Phyrexian Tower. Turns really silly really quickly w/ Siege Rhinos. That trick overperformed for me all day long. Or just blocking & sacrificing w/ P. Tower.

[Ganfar]

I got to jam Siege Rhinos for 8 hours+ last saturday. It was my first day of spinning Tops. I don't ever want to play Nic Fit without it again.

Observations:
- Tireless Tracker overperformed. It either died to removal ASAP or drew me 4/6 cards.
- Courser of Kruphix overperformed. Courser + Tracker is nasty. Courser + Top is nasty.
- Even though Big Sorin is overpowered as hell, I don't feel like I need it. I either want to replace it w/ Sorin, LoI or the green Geargolem. There were some moments where I would've wanted it badly.

I also found a nice way of dealing w/ Batterskull, by the way. Meren + random creature + Phyrexian Tower. Turns really silly really quickly w/ Siege Rhinos. That trick overperformed for me all day long. Or just blocking & sacrificing w/ P. Tower.

What decks did you play against?

I try to Dig Through Thread to find this decklist. I just got hype hearing Trieless with Courser in Nic Fit.

My meta starts to be more Unfair so Nic-Fit is bad in the meta now for me. :cry:

[Echelon]

I played against RUG Delver (mana denial galore), D&T & Affinity. Most testing took place vs. RUG Delver & D&T though. Vs. Affinity I first opened w/ Explorer into Tower -> crazy shit and game 2 was Explorer into T2 Tower, Deed, blow for 2.

I'll see if I can find my list. It's on here somewhere.

Edit: Found it, here it is:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage (In lieu of Abrupt Decay. Have been liking it very much so far.)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (This might become a Verdurous Gearhulk or a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction

I'm very, very happy with the list. It's rather quick, runs like a well oiled machine and has crazy lategame potential (which you hit relatively quickly). Lategame the mana is a bit tight (b/c I run only 6 basics) but still very well managable.

[Ganfar]

I played against RUG Delver (mana denial galore), D&T & Affinity. Most testing took place vs. RUG Delver & D&T though. Vs. Affinity I first opened w/ Explorer into Tower -> crazy shit and game 2 was Explorer into T2 Tower, Deed, blow for 2.

I'll see if I can find my list. It's on here somewhere.

Edit: Found it, here it is:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage (In lieu of Abrupt Decay. Have been liking it very much so far.)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis (This might become a Verdurous Gearhulk or a Sorin, Lord of Innistrad)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction

I'm very, very happy with the list. It's rather quick, runs like a well oiled machine and has crazy lategame potential (which you hit relatively quickly). Lategame the mana is a bit tight (b/c I run only 6 basics) but still very well managable.

All three seems to be decks you want to meet. I would replace Sorin with Garruk Relentless. Garruk makes bigger tokens then Sorin LoI and can be a removel for small cretures(I think Relentless is supercool but I haven't play it so much).

Your deck seems to have a plan then "Here is a super cool tech Nic-fit decks can do". There are cards that I dislike (Dryad Arbor) but I really want try this out.

I need to buy one more Tower, Stronghold have never been good as the Tower for me.

No Chocke in sideborad for Miracles?

[Echelon]

RUG was more difficult than I expected. Still around 60/40, I guess. Then again, the pilot was a good friend of mine who's had more experience dealing w/ Nic Fit than probably most people out there. During tournaments I usually breeze right through unless I face that guy.

D&T also was about 60/40, I think. Major grindfest though - I mostly managed to power through it thanks to the crazy toolbox and out of the box tactics.

It's a fun, yet complex list w/ a lot of intricacies. It rewards you for thinking on your feet and having an aptitude for creative problem solving. Vs. RUG, on the play a T1 fetch -> GSZ for X = 0 -> Arbor could be crucial to ensure you don't get Wasteland/Stifled out of the game. The trick to Dryad Arbor is that you shouldn't look at it as a land but rather a creature you play when you can't make a land drop that turn, should it ever be in your opening 7. It opens a lot of tricky lines, functioning like a swiss army knife of sorts.

There's about 1 or 2 people out of 20-25 or so in my local meta that turn up with Miracles, so I don't want to commit too many cards specifically to that MU. Instead I run a bunch of Lost Legacy, letting me strip away my opponents' SDT/Terminus.

Garruk might also be a fit for the Sorin slot, you're absolutely right.

Also, I'm a bit late, but...


Yesterday was an Eternal week-end trial. I wasn't sure yet about some slots of Sneak Fit and chose to come back to my Enchantement Fit, Nick Fist as I call it.

...

G2 & 3: some lucky rape with a mix of discard, surgical and lost legacy, with humility on the 2, staying on back up in hand letting the spirits doing the job on the 3


I lol'd @Fisting your opponent, but the phrase "some lucky rape" is not OK dude. I get what you're trying to say, but those're not the words to say it with. Please word differently in the future.

[Ganfar]

RUG was more difficult than I expected. Still around 60/40, I guess. Then again, the pilot was a good friend of mine who's had more experience dealing w/ Nic Fit than probably most people out there. During tournaments I usually breeze right through unless I face that guy.

D&T also was about 60/40, I think. Major grindfest though - I mostly managed to power through it thanks to the crazy toolbox and out of the box tactics.

It's a fun, yet complex list w/ a lot of intricacies. It rewards you for thinking on your feet and having an aptitude for creative problem solving. Vs. RUG, on the play a T1 fetch -> GSZ for X = 0 -> Arbor could be crucial to ensure you don't get Wasteland/Stifled out of the game. The trick to Dryad Arbor is that you shouldn't look at it as a land but rather a creature you play when you can't make a land drop that turn, should it ever be in your opening 7. It opens a lot of tricky lines, functioning like a swiss army knife of sorts.


Btw, what is the readon you don't have AD in 75?

Lost Legacy agianst mircales seems just ok. Not good or bad.

[Ulysse95]

Echelon



I lol'd @Fisting your opponent, but the phrase "some lucky rape" is not OK dude. I get what you're trying to say, but those're not the words to say it with. Please word differently in the future.

Sorry Dude, I get your point and edited the words.

[Echelon]

Btw, what is the readon you don't have AD in 75?

Lost Legacy agianst mircales seems just ok. Not good or bad.

Mostly b/c I don't like it.

Vs. creatures, PtE is simply better. And not green, allowing for more efficient mana management (since you want to spend your green mana on creatures/GSZ).

Vs. non-creature, non-planeswalkers I just spend a bit more mana to answer it via Pridemage.

W/ 1 Pridemage and 4 PtE I run 4 virtual AD for creatures (in PtE) and 5 virtual AD for non-creature, non-planeswalkers (in 4 GSZ + 1 Pridemage).

As far as planeswalkers are concerned - the one that bugs us most costs 4 mana, so AD is no answer there either.

In this configuration I either have a more efficient AD, or an AD that can kill my opponent and form a neat loop w/ Meren for some insane value. Running Pridemage also means I have 8 outs to various lockpieces G1 (4 GSZ, 1 Pridemage, 3 P. Deed). Good luck hitting that number when running ADs w/o Pridemage.

As for PtE being counterable - when you have AD-mana open (i.e. 2), PtE has "Daze-proof". And if my opponent wants to waste a FoW (i.e. take a 2-for-1) on my 1 mana card, well, be my guest. The turn after that I'll probably drop a creature that puts his to shame (b/c if it were AD, the creature couldn't cost more than 3 mana in the first place and there's no 3 mana creature that Siege Rhino can't beat). Might that mean that I take some beats that AD would have prevented? Sure. I don't care. Your lifetotal is a resource as much as anything else, so just use it as such. Nic Fit is perfectly capable of recovering from near-death.

The only place where AD the more efficient option is where you'd GSZ -> Qasali Pridemage. Point is, during most of these MUs you have more time to take that route anyway, so it works out just fine in the end.

@Ulysse: No problem, you da man! Congrats on the result!

[Ralf]

Hey folks,

I am going to throw out a list me and Arian were working on last month. Due to my time constraints, I wasn't able to progress with it as much as I would have liked. There are two builds and I figure some people can play around with them and figure stuff out:

Both lists aim to produce a semi-lock state while racing with a swarm plan. The first list is a little more reliable but the second list is more powerful.

I will eventually return to them but I have a bunch of stuff ahead in the queue before I can look at them (after EW probably).

-- Off Thread --

If you want some ideas, click here (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=14241&#entry259238).

I've written a "not so bad" primer about "Human Squad" in Legacy.

I've jammed the list during two trial events.
I ended up 4-2 on Friday and 3-2 on Sunday.

The list is up-to-date in my signature, though.

If you don't understand "French", try to translate it.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

-- On Thread --

@ all:

We have tested with good results Blessed Alliance as a 1-of MD and another one in the SB. It replaced a PTE.
It definitely improved some MU where having access to another way of dealing with TNN, Mirran (protected by MoR and equipped) and Emrakul is nice. Not to mention that sometimes escalating for +4 PV can be a matter of life or death.

[Echelon]

@ all:

We have tested with good results Blessed Alliance as a 1-of MD and another one in the SB. It replaced a PTE.
It definitely improved some MU where having access to another way of dealing with TNN, Mirran (protected by MoR and equipped) and Emrakul is nice. Not to mention that sometimes escalating for +4 PV can be a matter of life or death.

With 2 to 4 mana it does let you turn a possibly horrible combat step into a one sided massacre. The opportunity cost - keeping 2 to 4 (or 5, if you want to account for Daze) mana open just to trick your opponent seems like a pretty big price to pay though. It's a potential 3-for-1, but still. It takes a lot of effort to set up.

[Ralf]

With 2 to 4 mana it does let you turn a possibly horrible combat step into a one sided massacre. The opportunity cost - keeping 2 to 4 (or 5, if you want to account for Daze) mana open just to trick your opponent seems like a pretty big price to pay though. It's a potential 3-for-1, but still. It takes a lot of effort to set up.

The opportunity cost has to be compared with PTE:

- You will usually leave 1 mana open for PTE. Yes, you can spend it during your turn (which will almost never be the case with BA) but still it will cost you 1 mana.
- Against tempo, you will play it for 2, most of the time, making it worse than a PTE.
- Against the rest, you usually wait until you can take maximum profit of it. It will be usually played for 4 mana.

So what ?

At the bare minimum, it will cost you 1 mana more than PTE to get "the job done".
It is worse against multiple attacking creatures (because your opponent gets to choose) but better against some difficult ones to deal with; just remember that the battlefield gets easily clogged with Nic Fit (especially against other midrange) and one is often only attacking with 1 creature.
But if you succeed "escalating"; it just overperforms PTE.

[Meyer]

Hey folks,

after abandoning the SFM build for now, my Junk Fit list gravitates more and more towards Echelons latest list. Although not completely sure about the 4x Rhino, i think this is the way to go (at least for Junk colors). We need to go back to the roots i guess, back to what Nic Fit does best: Survive early/mid game with discard, spot removal and board-stalling blockers that are supposed to die anyway (I even count Deathrite Shaman in here, as long as he accelerates us into key cards/ end game, his job is done. For me, everything beyond that is just a nice bonus). From there on, the opponent – at least in my creature-heavy meta - has two choices: Either he overextends to close the game as fast as possible, or he slows down/ keeps cards in hand to strenghten his own end game as he probably knows what my intention is. As a Nic Fit player, I'm OK with both ways. The first scenario is mostly solved by Pornicious Deed and if we're lucky it's enough and they don't come back. The second scenario is probably more common and often the harder way, but in fact it is exactly what we want: a guaranteed end game which we are strong at, then start beatdown.
The great mayority of games that I win with Junk Fit followed the simple scheme of sacrificing Deed for 3 somewhere, which annihilates the opponents board and leaves my game-winning CMC 4 or higher stuff. Why not focus on this simple method completely, without 'the danger of cool things'?
Echelons list is nearly perfect for this strategy, and I like 'well oiled machines' when it comes to my decks. Nevertheless I opt for some changes:

- 1 Deathrite Shaman (I think two is enough for our purposes)
- 1 Scavenging Ooze (SB was his place in the past, was fine)
- 1 Courser of Kruphix (don't own one, maybe I should buy one and test it out since it often overperforms for you)
- 1-2 Siege Rhino (not sure about the right number. Maybe 4 is the way to go, but if the new green Gearhulk shines, you can cut at least one i guess)
- 1 Diabolic Intent (for those who like/ need it, keep it. I don't need the toolbox for now)

+1 Sakura Tribe Elder (replaces Deathrite and supports the overall ramp plan. I like him in his spot)
+1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (survives our mass removal and can close games really quick, plus good vs. Miracles)
+1 Pernicious Deed / Toxic Deluge (this may be too much, but I want to prioritize on destroying the opponents ambitions)
+1 Verdorous Gearhulk (needs to be tested, but he could be the beatdown creature we searched for)
+1 Tireless Tracker (this deck needs the card advantage, i fear 1 of them is not enough)

My choices are debateable, but at least in my meta ( I feel 2/3 decks are D&T, some Miracles, Combo and Eldrazi, rest Elves, Goblins, Bladedecks, Roguedecks) this seems very solid. As I said some things need to be tested (again). Echelons SB looks good, but everybody needs to tweak that on his own.

@ Echelon: I will try to squeeze in 1-2 Abrupt Decay nonetheless, testing will show. Also need to get a second Phyrexian Tower, but one will do for now. Perhaps I even cut Meren, as there were so many alternatives at her CMC and she doesn't contributes to the beatdown plan immediatly; I love her as a card, but she's more of a slow, controllish way to gain more and more card advantage.

How were the Path to Exile vs. D&T? Usually I don't like giving them extra lands for Port activations etc. Eventually going back to Swords to Plowshares for that matter..

And I'm curios how Lost Legacy performs in problematic matchups. No red needed for Slaughter Games anymore?

@ all: Potentially brewing on Junk Veteran Walkers. Nearly the same approach as above, but with more Planeswalkers that stabilze or win the game. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless, Sorin Grim Nemesis, the new Nissa, Vital Force and others come to my mind. Any ideas on that? If testing shows noteworthy results, I'll let you guys know.

Cheers.

[Ganfar]

Mostly b/c I don't like it.

Vs. creatures, PtE is simply better. And not green, allowing for more efficient mana management (since you want to spend your green mana on creatures/GSZ).

Vs. non-creature, non-planeswalkers I just spend a bit more mana to answer it via Pridemage.

W/ 1 Pridemage and 4 PtE I run 4 virtual AD for creatures (in PtE) and 5 virtual AD for non-creature, non-planeswalkers (in 4 GSZ + 1 Pridemage).

As far as planeswalkers are concerned - the one that bugs us most costs 4 mana, so AD is no answer there either.

In this configuration I either have a more efficient AD, or an AD that can kill my opponent and form a neat loop w/ Meren for some insane value. Running Pridemage also means I have 8 outs to various lockpieces G1 (4 GSZ, 1 Pridemage, 3 P. Deed). Good luck hitting that number when running ADs w/o Pridemage.

As for PtE being counterable - when you have AD-mana open (i.e. 2), PtE has "Daze-proof". And if my opponent wants to waste a FoW (i.e. take a 2-for-1) on my 1 mana card, well, be my guest. The turn after that I'll probably drop a creature that puts his to shame (b/c if it were AD, the creature couldn't cost more than 3 mana in the first place and there's no 3 mana creature that Siege Rhino can't beat). Might that mean that I take some beats that AD would have prevented? Sure. I don't care. Your lifetotal is a resource as much as anything else, so just use it as such. Nic Fit is perfectly capable of recovering from near-death.

The only place where AD the more efficient option is where you'd GSZ -> Qasali Pridemage. Point is, during most of these MUs you have more time to take that route anyway, so it works out just fine in the end.

That is a good response.

But I would like to see a Mealstrom Pulse or Judgement in 75. I don't like any answered to Jace, The Mind other then cretures.

[Echelon]

The opportunity cost has to be compared with PTE:

- You will usually leave 1 mana open for PTE. Yes, you can spend it during your turn (which will almost never be the case with BA) but still it will cost you 1 mana.
- Against tempo, you will play it for 2, most of the time, making it worse than a PTE.
- Against the rest, you usually wait until you can take maximum profit of it. It will be usually played for 4 mana.

So what ?

At the bare minimum, it will cost you 1 mana more than PTE to get "the job done".
It is worse against multiple attacking creatures (because your opponent gets to choose) but better against some difficult ones to deal with; just remember that the battlefield gets easily clogged with Nic Fit (especially against other midrange) and one is often only attacking with 1 creature.
But if you succeed "escalating"; it just overperforms PTE.

You're basically repeating what I said, lol. Nowhere did I claim it was unplayable/horrible. I just weighed the pros and cons, that's it.


Hey folks,

after abandoning the SFM build for now, my Junk Fit list gravitates more and more towards Echelons latest list. Although not completely sure about the 4x Rhino, i think this is the way to go (at least for Junk colors). We need to go back to the roots i guess, back to what Nic Fit does best: Survive early/mid game with discard, spot removal and board-stalling blockers that are supposed to die anyway (I even count Deathrite Shaman in here, as long as he accelerates us into key cards/ end game, his job is done. For me, everything beyond that is just a nice bonus). From there on, the opponent – at least in my creature-heavy meta - has two choices: Either he overextends to close the game as fast as possible, or he slows down/ keeps cards in hand to strenghten his own end game as he probably knows what my intention is. As a Nic Fit player, I'm OK with both ways. The first scenario is mostly solved by Pornicious Deed and if we're lucky it's enough and they don't come back. The second scenario is probably more common and often the harder way, but in fact it is exactly what we want: a guaranteed end game which we are strong at, then start beatdown.
The great mayority of games that I win with Junk Fit followed the simple scheme of sacrificing Deed for 3 somewhere, which annihilates the opponents board and leaves my game-winning CMC 4 or higher stuff. Why not focus on this simple method completely, without 'the danger of cool things'?
Echelons list is nearly perfect for this strategy, and I like 'well oiled machines' when it comes to my decks. Nevertheless I opt for some changes:

- 1 Deathrite Shaman (I think two is enough for our purposes)
- 1 Scavenging Ooze (SB was his place in the past, was fine)
- 1 Courser of Kruphix (don't own one, maybe I should buy one and test it out since it often overperforms for you)
- 1-2 Siege Rhino (not sure about the right number. Maybe 4 is the way to go, but if the new green Gearhulk shines, you can cut at least one i guess)
- 1 Diabolic Intent (for those who like/ need it, keep it. I don't need the toolbox for now)

+1 Sakura Tribe Elder (replaces Deathrite and supports the overall ramp plan. I like him in his spot)
+1 Elspeth, Knight Errant (survives our mass removal and can close games really quick, plus good vs. Miracles)
+1 Pernicious Deed / Toxic Deluge (this may be too much, but I want to prioritize on destroying the opponents ambitions)
+1 Verdorous Gearhulk (needs to be tested, but he could be the beatdown creature we searched for)
+1 Tireless Tracker (this deck needs the card advantage, i fear 1 of them is not enough)

My choices are debateable, but at least in my meta ( I feel 2/3 decks are D&T, some Miracles, Combo and Eldrazi, rest Elves, Goblins, Bladedecks, Roguedecks) this seems very solid. As I said some things need to be tested (again). Echelons SB looks good, but everybody needs to tweak that on his own.

@ Echelon: I will try to squeeze in 1-2 Abrupt Decay nonetheless, testing will show. Also need to get a second Phyrexian Tower, but one will do for now. Perhaps I even cut Meren, as there were so many alternatives at her CMC and she doesn't contributes to the beatdown plan immediatly; I love her as a card, but she's more of a slow, controllish way to gain more and more card advantage.

How were the Path to Exile vs. D&T? Usually I don't like giving them extra lands for Port activations etc. Eventually going back to Swords to Plowshares for that matter..

And I'm curios how Lost Legacy performs in problematic matchups. No red needed for Slaughter Games anymore?

@ all: Potentially brewing on Junk Veteran Walkers. Nearly the same approach as above, but with more Planeswalkers that stabilze or win the game. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless, Sorin Grim Nemesis, the new Nissa, Vital Force and others come to my mind. Any ideas on that? If testing shows noteworthy results, I'll let you guys know.

Cheers.

First off: Thank you for the compliment. PtE was fine vs. D&T, just be tricky about it (as always). Didn't get to give Lost Legacy a field test yet, so can't say anything about that so far. Seeing the cuts you're planning to make, I do fear you're missing on some of the intricacies of the list and are misjudging the roles some of the cards fulfill. If anyone wants, I can go over them in detail (and include how removing certain cards affects them).


That is a good response.

But I would like to see a Mealstrom Pulse or Judgement in 75. I don't like any answered to Jace, The Mind other then cretures.

Thank you. Yeah, it's a toughy. So much stuff I want to do, so few slots to do it with.

[Ganfar]

Thank you. Yeah, it's a toughy. So much stuff I want to do, so few slots to do it with.

Agree. All the cards have a role. The only card I can think to cut in main is a PtE to a Mealstrom Pulse.

Maybe take out one Lost Legacy for a Pulse in sideborad. It's not clear what is best here.

[Brael]

Both lists aim to produce a semi-lock state while racing with a swarm plan. The first list is a little more reliable but the second list is more powerful.

I will eventually return to them but I have a bunch of stuff ahead in the queue before I can look at them (after EW probably).


I like the second list but there's a few changes I would make. We're definitely thinking along the same lines of using Humans though. In my case it was more coincidental, I'm not sure about you but there's some good ones out there. I don't think Recruiter of the Guard is worth it though. I would definitely run Sin Collector over it.

I think that I would instead try to find something you can use as removal. I don't think Company is a good Legacy card. The baseline for 4 mana in this format is a 3 for 1 not a 2 for 1. You can get a 3 for 1 off of Ranger of Eos or Harmonize and neither puts the same deckbuilding restraints on you so you're able to play some actual removal, and other CA. Company means you're giving up Path, Painful Truths, Ranger, Sigarda, Top, and more. It's just not worth it when you can instead have all of the above.

Glad to see someone else trying the junk humans route though, I think there's some value to it.

[Brael]

But I would like to see a Mealstrom Pulse or Judgement in 75. I don't like any answered to Jace, The Mind other then cretures.

Sylvan Safekeeper is one of the best creature answers you can have to Jace. It completely blanks his -1 for your entire board and unlike Thrun or Sigarda, is trivial to cast.

[Ganfar]

Sylvan Safekeeper is one of the best creature answers you can have to Jace. It completely blanks his -1 for your entire board and unlike Thrun or Sigarda, is trivial to cast.

When you have a empty borad and they play Jace, it will be really hard to stop Jace. Terminus can still save Jace from cretures.

I would at least one direct answer for Jace: The mind or other big things.

[Brael]

When you have a empty borad and they play Jace, it will be really hard to stop Jace. Terminus can still save Jace from cretures.

I would at least one direct answer for Jace: The mind or other big things.

Safekeeper + Teeg, both sides can be GSZ'ed, they blank a Jace and stop a Terminus.

The best way to beat JTMS though is to have a strong card advantage engine of your own. Especially against Miracles, CA is their big weakness. This isn't a deck that gets its wins from being reactive.

[truthfulcake]

Safekeeper + Teeg, both sides can be GSZ'ed, they blank a Jace and stop a Terminus.

The best way to beat JTMS though is to have a strong card advantage engine of your own. Especially against Miracles, CA is their big weakness.
When does Teeg come in? I've only just picked up Nic Fit (but it's a deck I'm set on tweaking and adjusting until I get it more to my liking). I brought it in the other night against Stoneblade, since it turned off Batterskull and Force but I'm not sure if that's right.

[Brael]

When does Teeg come in? I've only just picked up Nic Fit (but it's a deck I'm set on tweaking and adjusting until I get it more to my liking). I brought it in the other night against Stoneblade, since it turned off Batterskull and Force but I'm not sure if that's right.

I don't run him, lots do though against Miracles. He shuts off basically their entire deck other than Swords and Counterbalance/Top.

[Zirath]

-- Off Thread --

If you want some ideas, click here (http://www.legacy-france.org/index.php?showtopic=14241&#entry259238).

I've written a "not so bad" primer about "Human Squad" in Legacy.

I've jammed the list during two trial events.
I ended up 4-2 on Friday and 3-2 on Sunday.

The list is up-to-date in my signature, though.

If you don't understand "French", try to translate it.
If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

While I appreciate the guidance, that list is a very different direction than where I am trying to go. I am very familiar with the Humans Stompy in Vintage and I am not pursuing that because I believe that there are Nic Fit builds that don't revolve around Deed that I want to explore more.


I like the second list but there's a few changes I would make. We're definitely thinking along the same lines of using Humans though. In my case it was more coincidental, I'm not sure about you but there's some good ones out there. I don't think Recruiter of the Guard is worth it though. I would definitely run Sin Collector over it.

I think that I would instead try to find something you can use as removal. I don't think Company is a good Legacy card. The baseline for 4 mana in this format is a 3 for 1 not a 2 for 1. You can get a 3 for 1 off of Ranger of Eos or Harmonize and neither puts the same deckbuilding restraints on you so you're able to play some actual removal, and other CA. Company means you're giving up Path, Painful Truths, Ranger, Sigarda, Top, and more. It's just not worth it when you can instead have all of the above.

Glad to see someone else trying the junk humans route though, I think there's some value to it.

I have been unsure about Recruiter to begin with. He hasn't really been very impressive in general. Sin Collector is a card I wish wasn't 3 mana. It's probably too narrow. And in the context of analyzing the need for Company, it is one of the first cards we cut.

I really want Company to work (it's just a card I love) but I know your point. The main issue I've been having is either I can't get going fast enough or the lock is too fragile and get broken up before I can control the board. The issue on the other side is that a lot of those other cards don't solve the problems I have been experiencing. There is a lot of power behind putting out two lords from an empty hand.

Both of these lists were primarily theory crafted and I didn't get to test them as much as I wanted. That being said, if I were to make changes based on comments and my analysis, I would probably start here:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Sanctum Prelate

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library

3 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Cavern of Souls

[Bobmans]

When does Teeg come in? I've only just picked up Nic Fit (but it's a deck I'm set on tweaking and adjusting until I get it more to my liking). I brought it in the other night against Stoneblade, since it turned off Batterskull and Force but I'm not sure if that's right.

Teeg is at its best vs Storm combo. It also works against SneakShow, Aluren, Natural Order, Belcher, MonoRedSneak, Tezzeret.
Teeg also blocks Jace, Terminus, Entreat and Nahiri, but Miracles doesn't have to hard time to remove Teeg.
I wouldn't bother to board Teeg vs FoW and Batterskull is dropped thru Teeg with SFM obviously. On top of that, the question is, will Teeg shut your own GSZ or Walker down. Against storm or other combo thats fine, but against fair decks it is not.

[Echelon]

@truthfulcake: What everybody else said. Besides, Stoneblade is a pretty good MU, why clip your own wings by disabling GSZ?

[Ganfar]

Safekeeper + Teeg, both sides can be GSZ'ed, they blank a Jace and stop a Terminus.

The best way to beat JTMS though is to have a strong card advantage engine of your own. Especially against Miracles, CA is their big weakness. This isn't a deck that gets its wins from being reactive.

Yes, you can make a set-up to stop to Jace and Terminus. They are not only cards.

Anyhow, I like at least in 75 that can take care something non-creture 4 drop.

@Bobsman: I think I have ask this before but how weel have Nissa been to you? http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rhinos-abbondanza/

[Bobmans]

Flippa has been a solid lategame card. On top of that, i really like the flavor of this planeswalker.
If all it is another angle of CA just as Tracker and Courser are.
The pro is that it can provide a 4/4 beater while walling and generating CA (Tracker does both offcourse).
The con is that the card is weak during early game.
Having 7 basics in your deck is impotant to consitently flip it when you drop the card.
Especially next to SDT this card enables several little interactions. Shuffle, filter. I even used it to turn GSZ into a double shuffle to activate SDT twice searching for a non creature answer.
The ultimate was never relevant, if flippa sticks, your probably already winning.
Flippa is a gadget, i like gadgets.
Just like Courser it does not solve problems, it simply helps getting a more solid boardstate.

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[Echelon]

Courser singlehandedly solves Burn.dec, you silly goose. Stops their board presence dead in its tracks and gives you valuable life.

[Ralf]

Courser singlehandedly solves Burn.dec, you silly goose. Stops their board presence dead in its tracks and gives you valuable life.

I don't think so.
Courser is unfortunately too slow compared to their standard velocity.

[Ganfar]

I don't think so.
Courser is unfortunately too slow compared to their standard velocity.

It can at least slow down the burn deck, better then other cards.

Couser are a bit better then Nissa, I think. It's better in early game and we already have cards that are good in the end good already.

[Ulysse95]

I don't think so.
Courser is unfortunately too slow compared to their standard velocity.

I don't agree, and them neither it seems..
They usually kill it ASAP, spending 2 spells or a fireblast on it.

[Echelon]

Besides, it can hit the field as early as T2.

[cherson]

I have the feeling that most of you cut painful truths from the list, correct?
is it the lost life you are struggling with? honestly speaking I have problems when to play the card.
drawing three cards is of course awesome but in the early game I have the feeling I want/have to do other things and late game the life total matters.

[Whitefaces]

Besides, it can hit the field as early as T2.

Can =/= will.

I agree with Ralf. While it's nice to have, Courser doesn't single handedly solve the burn matchup at all, you need something a lot more impactful. Besides, burn isn't a huge player these days anyway so it doesn't seem like a very good reason to keep Courser in.

[Echelon]

@Dissection: I was mostly making a silly jab at Bobmans. Ralf just happens to hate the card. We've had this discussion before, there's no need to do it again.

@Cherson: For me, it was opportunity cost. 3 mana is a lot. For that mana I can also get a GSZ'able CA engine on legs.

[Ralf]

Ralf just happens to hate the card. We've had this discussion before, there's no need to do it again.

No, I don't.

It has some merits with SDT that I will not deny.
Nevertheless, I'm usually quite reluctant to spend a GSZ for it, when I play it.

And I don't remember having that discussion with you.

Nevertheless, I talked here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=832096&viewfull=1#post832096) about Courser a long time ago.

[Echelon]

No, I don't.

It has some merits with SDT that I will not deny.
Nevertheless, I'm usually quite reluctant to spend a GSZ for it, when I play it.

And I don't remember having that discussion with you.

Nevertheless, I talked here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBx-Explorer-Zenith-Control)&p=832096&viewfull=1#post832096) about Courser a long time ago.

It was quite some time ago :wink:. Or it was with someone else. Anyways, who cares.

[Whitefaces]

Anyways, who cares.

People that play the deck, I guess.

I tried Courser in multiple Nic Fit builds when it was released and it always underperformed, even with Library or SDT. In theory it's a nice card, but in practice all the things it does are too marginal for the format. Now that Tracker has joined the party it's even less needed.

[truthfulcake]

Teeg is at its best vs Storm combo. It also works against SneakShow, Aluren, Natural Order, Belcher, MonoRedSneak, Tezzeret.
Teeg also blocks Jace, Terminus, Entreat and Nahiri, but Miracles doesn't have to hard time to remove Teeg.
I wouldn't bother to board Teeg vs FoW and Batterskull is dropped thru Teeg with SFM obviously. On top of that, the question is, will Teeg shut your own GSZ or Walker down. Against storm or other combo thats fine, but against fair decks it is not.
Is it worth keeping in the Eidolon Cycle in the board in addition to Teeg then? I've currently trimmed down the Draw and Spell ones. My sideboard feels a little all over the joint at the moment, still throwing things in to see what sticks.


@truthfulcake: What everybody else said. Besides, Stoneblade is a pretty good MU, why clip your own wings by disabling GSZ?

True enough, I wasn't sure what to bring in against Stoneblade (Besides Golgari Charm and Pithing Needle).

I'm currently tweaking my wincons and CA engines at the moment- currently on Sun Titan (Which may become a Grave Titan when I actually get one), Sigarda, two Rhinos, Anafenza, Thragtusk, a SFM and a Batterskull and a Baneslayer for wincons (Baneslayer is more a personal favorite at this stage though). CA engines are flip nissa (Who has been amazing) and Tireless Tracker (Which does pretty well, as expected).

[Brael]

People that play the deck, I guess.

I tried Courser in multiple Nic Fit builds when it was released and it always underperformed, even with Library or SDT. In theory it's a nice card, but in practice all the things it does are too marginal for the format. Now that Tracker has joined the party it's even less needed.

There's some good Dryad Arbor/Courser tricks out there, but I don't like that in my build it's not a human. I'm considering replacing Courser with Knight of the Reliquary, it has a good interaction with Top although not as strong, it helps solve the problem of having large bodies, it's strong on it's own with the ability to tutor lands like Volrath's, and it has a great interaction with Tracker.

The argument against this basically comes down to lifegain, I don't have much in my build and Courser goes a long way towards helping stabilize a drawn out game.

[sdematt]

Im running 3 Top, 1 Tracker, 2 Truths, 2 Sylvan
Love it.

[Ralf]

As some of you asked, I reworked my old SFM list and here it is:


SFM Fist by Ralf

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Swords To Plowshares

3 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Sylvan Library

1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke

And a few comments:
1) I've been really impressed by Nissa. She is gonna stick for a while in my Nic Fit builds. Not to mention potential collateral damages with Lingering Souls...
2) LotV is back. Lingering souls is at Junk what punishing fire is at Jund. It breaks her symmetry. Period
3) DRS > Vet, here. Haters gonna hate it.
4) No Pernicious Deed, obviously obvious with such a "ramp" setup.
5) Dryad is there. GSZ @ 0 and turn every fetch into a potential equipment carrier all day / every day.
6) I'll keep testing with Blessed Alliance. The card has been very good in testing even if it costs 1 more mana compared to STP/PTE. The modal clause really is making up for it.
7) Full SFM package for immediate pressure and virtual CA. Turn "on" every late squirrel into a must answer.

The deck is still "raw", the CMC-3 slot feels sometimes a bit clogged but this is the price to pay for maximum velocity (T1 DRS into T2 CMC 3 is definitely broken).

Enjoy.

[Brael]

As some of you asked, I reworked my old SFM list and here it is:

I like the build, have you found yourself running out of action in the mid to late game? That's one of the issues I've seen with a higher velocity is that you need a way to keep fuel in your hand, otherwise you peter out after a few turns. LotV seems to me like she would only make this problem worse.

Also, what's your usual Library play? Have you considered Dark Confidant instead? It's still extra cards but more along the lines of 1-2 life per turn rather than 4 and it can hit the opponent.

[Ralf]

I like the build, have you found yourself running out of action in the mid to late game? That's one of the issues I've seen with a higher velocity is that you need a way to keep fuel in your hand, otherwise you peter out after a few turns. LotV seems to me like she would only make this problem worse.

Also, what's your usual Library play? Have you considered Dark Confidant instead? It's still extra cards but more along the lines of 1-2 life per turn rather than 4 and it can hit the opponent.

1) Lingering Souls & Sylvan library are covering up Liliana's symmetry. The goal, here, is to put you and your opponent into a top deck war where you should definitely dig from your hole faster than him. Courser has also proven to be very interesting in such wars. I'm still assessing whether we should be playing some SDT or not. I do like very much the synergy between SDT & Liliana. But, I also like naming SDT with pithing needle after board against Miracle.

2) Main Deck, I still prefer Library to Dark Confidant. It is harder to remove and you definitely control the way you lose life. Nevertheless, I have aforementioned, a week ago, the possibility to try an eva green/pikula kind of sideboard plan. The idea would obviously be to play between 3 to 4 Dark Confidant, 1 or 2 beater (Goyf / you name it), 5 to 6 discards spells (3 TS 2 Tourach) and go "yolo" against combo and slower control decks.
Unfortunately, this would have a "cost" because you would cover the rest of Legacy's world with only 3 to 5 cards left in your sideboard.

To sum it up, the idea exists but needs testing.

Again, the proposed list is far from being fully fine tuned (20 or 21 lands is the real deal, here not counting DA), it was more of an update from my older SFM list.
Nevertheless, the grind is very real and Liliana, singlehandely, makes our G1 against control and combo winnable.

This build is tailor made for big tournaments because:
- you will have free wins (for your sanity) because a T2 SFM into BSK is unanswered.
- combo decks are winnable G1 on the back of Liliana. It is even better post side.

As for the fun factor: Who has never won a game with a BSK + SOFI Sigarda ? That feeling is great...

[Brael]

2) Main Deck, I still prefer Library to Dark Confidant. It is harder to remove and you definitely control the way you lose life.

It's actually a positive rather than a negative that Bob can be removed more easily. Any removal spell aimed at Bob is a removal spell not aimed at your threats. Plus, he's pretty easy to stick if you have more threats than the opponent has answers.


The idea would obviously be to play between 3 to 4 Dark Confidant, 1 or 2 beater (Goyf / you name it), 5 to 6 discards spells (3 TS 2 Tourach) and go "yolo" against combo and slower control decks.

That's not really all that different from what I'm doing now. It works well and doesn't actually take as many SB slots as you would think.

[Echelon]

People that play the deck, I guess.

I tried Courser in multiple Nic Fit builds when it was released and it always underperformed, even with Library or SDT. In theory it's a nice card, but in practice all the things it does are too marginal for the format. Now that Tracker has joined the party it's even less needed.

The "who cares" had nothing to do with your post, but that's fine. I guess we're doing this then. Alrighty.

I like that it smooths out my draws, clearing away topdeck lands so I'm more likely to draw into gas w/ my next drawstep, @0 extra expense. It also bogs down the field nicely vs. little stuff that'd normally be pecking away at our life total. 4 toughness is a lot for 3 mana.

@matt: That's an impressive CA suite. I'm thinking about getting 2 Sylvans myself. That'd put me @3 Tops, 2 Sylvan, 1 Tracker & 1 Courser. I'm going to have a hell of a time finding what to cut though. Most likely the top end CMC flex slot and mayhaps Scavenging Ooze (although I love that card to death).

[Ganfar]

Im running 3 Top, 1 Tracker, 2 Truths, 2 Sylvan
Love it.

Sometimes when I have played nic-fit, I don't feel I got any CD.

Running 2 Truths and 2 Sylvan in main can be good. Can I see your decklist please?

[Echelon]

matt's list is on page 361.

[sdematt]

Ill post an updated list tomorrow. Minor changes to squeeze the third Top back in.

[Whitefaces]

I'm really not a fan of double Sylvan Library, you want to diversify your card advantage/filtering if the ones chosen get worse in multiples. At Least SDT can save itself from a Deed, double Library and double Deed together is just asking for trouble.

[Echelon]

What are you a fan of?

Surprise us w/ a list. Preferably Junk Fit.

[Brael]

I'm really not a fan of double Sylvan Library, you want to diversify your card advantage/filtering if the ones chosen get worse in multiples. At Least SDT can save itself from a Deed, double Library and double Deed together is just asking for trouble.

It doesn't really matter if Library gets blown up off a Deed. Ideally you'll have already gotten your cards out of it. You can only reasonably take up to 4 cards off Library, and depending on the pressure you're facing, even less than that. After that it's just rearranging them which Top does too. Library is a great card to diversify your CA. It actually helps the CA plan to have low numbers of a large variety of different ways to generate CA because it's harder to shut down and sometimes the different CA mechanisms work together.

--------------------------------------------
Edit: Have a weekly league match coming up against W/B Pox, there's nothing too strange in it other than 4x Chains of Mephilstoles. Does anyone have some tips? I'm pretty confident in the match between my CA, recursion, and GY hate, but I don't want to make a stupid mistake since it's something I've never played against before using Nic Fit.

My big question comes down to Therapy. What should I call? I can see merit depending on the list and my hand to naming Smallpox or Hymn. Thoughts on naming Sinkhole? Any tips against Chains?

[truthfulcake]

My big question comes down to Therapy. What should I call? I can see merit depending on the list and my hand to naming Smallpox or Hymn. Thoughts on naming Sinkhole?
Name Hymn first I think. Pox is a 2-for-1 in your favor (they play the card, then discard another card), and the deck doesn't have many ways of generating card advantage. Hymn puts them ahead on cards, Pox puts them back on cards.

I'm not sure how good Sinkhole is against nic fit, since the deck ends up with a lot of lands quickly, which kinda mitigates that.

[Brael]

Name Hymn first I think. Pox is a 2-for-1 in your favor (they play the card, then discard another card), and the deck doesn't have many ways of generating card advantage. Hymn puts them ahead on cards, Pox puts them back on cards.

I'm not sure how good Sinkhole is against nic fit, since the deck ends up with a lot of lands quickly, which kinda mitigates that.

I've since seen the list. It has Armageddon in the SB and 4x Chains of Mephistolseles MB. Armageddon seems easy to play around. I think my strategy here is to rely pretty heavily on Meren and Bob as they're CA that gets around Chains and Meren seems especially good at dealing with occasional sacrifice effects. Honestly, my list seems well positioned for it but the Therapy calls are odd since almost everything in the opponents list is a 3 of minus Chains.

[truthfulcake]

I've since seen the list. It has Armageddon in the SB and 4x Chains of Mephistolseles MB. Armageddon seems easy to play around. I think my strategy here is to rely pretty heavily on Meren and Bob as they're CA that gets around Chains and Meren seems especially good at dealing with occasional sacrifice effects. Honestly, my list seems well positioned for it but the Therapy calls are odd since almost everything in the opponents list is a 3 of minus Chains.
Does Chains even impact Nic Fit at all? Turns off Top's evasion and Library, but your other forms of CA (Meren, Bob) don't technically draw.

I still say name Hymn, since it's the most damaging thing for you. I guess you blind name what you expect to be the worst thing for you, and if they don't have it then that's better for you.

[cherson]

Hymn. I play a lot against mono b pox and I always call hymn because the card is simply annoying and puts u behind. Calling sinkhole depends on your available lands and if u have something to dig for new ones if necessary. For me abrupt decay is important to destroy bridges and maybe cursed scroll.

Overall I think it is 70:30. They can't win the top deck race because the basically have non.

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[Brael]

Does Chains even impact Nic Fit at all? Turns off Top's evasion and Library, but your other forms of CA (Meren, Bob) don't technically draw.


The main worry is if they run me out of cards I'm locked out of the game at that point.


I still say name Hymn, since it's the most damaging thing for you. I guess you blind name what you expect to be the worst thing for you, and if they don't have it then that's better for you.

That's fair logic. Hymn is only a 3 of though, would it perhaps be better to name Thoughtseize (4 of) and then Hymn on the flashback? I'm pretty sure if I have sacrifice fodder that's correct (especially on the play). So play TS (if I have a FB target), then Hymn, draw Hymn?

Edit: NM, I'm dumb. Stupid Chains. Just realized it doesn't affect my draw for the turn, so it can't actually lock me out of the game.

[Echelon]

Meh, you run too much good stuff to be bothered w/ 1-for-1s like Thoughtseize. I'd rather whiff on Hymn (since they not having it is a good thing) than hit on a TS only to be Hymn'd to the face a turn later.

How many winconditions does your opponent run? I don't know if you're running Lost Legacy, but if he's low on winconditions Lost Legacy can be pretty fucking awesome.

Things to do w/ Meren, by the way: Assemble Eternal Witness + Phyrexian Tower. Lets you regrow your lands (and everything else) after an Armageddon.

[cherson]

So play TS (if I have a FB target), then Hymn, draw Hymn?


that's it.
I do it the same way. but u definitely need the flashback creature for the possible hymn.
most 1 drops they have: ts, rack, scroll, in blood.
ts hurts u most turn one therefore it a good call if you play first.
on the draw definitely hymn.

[Brael]

that's it.
I do it the same way. but u definitely need the flashback creature for the possible hymn.
most 1 drops they have: ts, rack, scroll, in blood.
ts hurts u most turn one therefore it a good call if you play first.
on the draw definitely hymn.

Definitely overthought the match because it was unfamiliar. Played a small 3 round tournament today, first round was our league pairings, then 2 more after that. Ended up 3-0 played against Pox, Eldrazi, and D&T.

Pox was pretty easy, I think calling it 70/30 is being kind. Game 1 involved a durdly win using a Mentor/Top combo (that was being run with just 2 lands on board). Game 2 my opponent was very scared of the Top combo and went with 4 Pithing Needles to shut the SDT's down (2 of which saw play). Eventually I got out from under the needles by using some recurred Pridemages, but by that point I had a Sigarda down which blanked his whole deck. 2-0

Next round was against Eldrazi. Maybe I just ran hot, but I wasn't really scared of them either. In game 1 I won with Bob beatdowns that eventually turned into Mentor/Top. This time I had lands though and the combo ended the game in 2 turns with a bunch of monks that rivaled Eldrazi in size. Game 2 involved a Chalice on 1 with me having a hand of Vet, Therapy, Path, Top, and some other stuff. The opponent kept due to a Mimic+Chalice hand with just one land. Being high on lands myself I used a fetch defensively for Arbor, traded with the Mimic, and then drew out of the lock an eventual Abrupt Decay followed by Vet/Therapy getting me a TKS and 2x Matter Reshapers. 2-0

The final round was against D&T. I don't remember many details but there was an easy game 1, I punted game 2 by forgetting about a Mirran Crusader in the opponents hand, and then calling something else on my Therapy flashback. Crusader+Jitte wrecked me a turn later. Game 3 went to turns but I got there with a Sigarda.

Ranger of Eos performed very well, Endless One came out a couple times and varied between 5/5 and 6/6. I never had a use to bring out a Safekeeper alongside it though. Still, I was getting 10 power over a couple bodies for 1 card invested on my end. Major value.

Mentor was interesting. The combo was lethal every time it came up, but it feels pretty bad to have a Mentor on board, a hand full of removal, and nothing to spend the removal on. I'm going to have to evaluate it further, but I liked it as a game 1 trick. In games 2 and 3, when this situation was coming up I was swapping a Mentor for a Knight (which ran around a 6/6) and just using Knight as a CA piece. Knight into Volrath's didn't come up, but I put that down to matchups. My Pox opponent had too many unused Wastelands, and the other opponents either exiled or didn't have removal. Against opponents that actually kill things I suspect having a way to turn a GSZ into a Volrath's is going to be pretty strong.

All in all I'm a fan of both 3 drops, and my current plan. But if you don't like the Mentor idea, Knight is superb alongside Tracker, Top, and any other CA pieces you may run. It's pretty nice with utility lands too, in my case Cavern to make 80% of my threats uncounterable, and Volrath's to recur anything that dies.


The clock is the biggest enemy, the extra finishers I added are helping that some though. Endless One and Knight of the Reliquary are both worth a couple minutes off each match because of how quickly they close things out. If you take nothing else away from this though, I would take away this point: KotR is good enough to be worth considering again. It's a great way to streamline your curve without giving up size, and the tutoring has some real utility. Turning every GSZ into a Volrath's which in turn makes every topdeck good is amazing. It has great interactions with Tracker, and I've found it to work well alongside Bob, Top, and by extension Sylvan Library as well. It's a worthy addition to the CA/CQ suite.

It could just be my meta, which lacks the unfair decks like Reanimator and Belcher that this build is bad against but I feel very well positioned against the format. It takes a lot for me to be confident about a Legacy deck, but I'm confident about this.

tl;dr: The list is solid.
Locally I'm above 50% against Miracles (could be due to opponent skill).
Eldrazi feels even, you'll either win big or lose big, there's no middle ground.
Delver/D&T/Fair decks are favored.
Storm and misc Force check decks are unfavored.

My biggest enemy is honestly the clock. Lots of drawing, lots of shuffling, lots of Top activations. I play at a pretty brisk pace and against Pox and Eldrazi I was on the 2-0 or bust plan. Miracles is usually a 1-0.

KotR is amazing. If you're not playing it, you probably should be.

[Echelon]

KotR is amazing. If you're not playing it, you probably should be.

Oh FFS not another 3-drop I have to somehow cram in there. I can see it being good (as I run 10 fetchlands and all). But damn man, we only have 60 slots. OMG, lol.

[Ganfar]

Oh FFS not another 3-drop I have to somehow cram in there. I can see it being good (as I run 10 fetchlands and all). But damn man, we only have 60 slots. OMG, lol.
Also If I am going to run with KotR, when I want Wasteland and utility lands.

I played test your list btw Echelon. It went well against bug and D&T.

What is the reason to have 10 fetchlands? I would like to add another dualland to have more options.

[Echelon]

Also If I am going to run with KotR, when I want Wasteland and utility lands.

I played test your list btw Echelon. It went well against bug and D&T.

What is the reason to have 10 fetchlands? I would like to add another dualland to have more options.

Meh, Wasteland is for pussies. KotR just being a 5/5+ is fine. It can be the big stick you need in the lategame.

Awesome that you played my list! Did you like it?

Why the 10 fetchlands? Well, for starters, I like to be able to rely solely on basics while keeping my manabase as small as possible. W/ 10 fetch, 3 duals & 6 basics I hit 14 initial manasources for each colour @just 19 lands, leaving me room for 2 utility lands (or 3 if you want a 22 land manabase). I basically only fetch a dual when I absolutely must. If I can avoid it, I just fetch for basics. I call this "Fuck you, Wasteland".

The second reason is that fetchlands become way more valuable than others lands when you have a Top/Courser/Library out, even if you have no land left to find in your library. Lategame they turn into 0 mana shuffle effects rather than mana #7/8+ (I mean, how much mana do you need when your curve tops out at 5/6?).

[Ganfar]

Meh, Wasteland is for pussies. KotR just being a 5/5+ is fine. It can be the big stick you need in the lategame.

Awesome that you played my list! Did you like it?

Why the 10 fetchlands? Well, for starters, I like to be able to rely solely on basics while keeping my manabase as small as possible. W/ 10 fetch, 3 duals & 6 basics I hit 14 initial manasources for each colour @just 19 lands, leaving me room for 2 utility lands (or 3 if you want a 22 land manabase). I basically only fetch a dual when I absolutely must. If I can avoid it, I just fetch for basics. I call this "Fuck you, Wasteland".

The second reason is that fetchlands become way more valuable than others lands when you have a Top/Courser/Library out, even if you have no land left to find in your library. Lategame they turn into 0 mana shuffle effects rather than mana #7/8+ (I mean, how much mana do you need when your curve tops out at 5/6?).

I made just one change in the deck -1 Path to +1 Mealstrom Pulse, becasue I want a all around answerd in main borad. (Didn't see it when I played"

I like the deck. I got to play KoT Stanard (Play 4 Rhinos in a row). The deck was not trying to do something cute that I felt the other version of the deck I have played. I need to play more and to get more feeling but right now it feels good.

I really like two Towers. The Stronghold have not been so good, when it's topdeck mode and you have a tusk in the graveyard. Tower makes your turn 2 more explosive and we can play our Rhino and a top.

[Echelon]

Glad to hear that!

The main goal of the list is to get out of the early game ASAP, quickly power through to the late game and bring your opponents to their knees from there.

I guess the manabase can be a bit tricky (since it's only 21 lands and focuses very strongly on fetching basics as much as you can), but you get used to it eventually. Mana is deliberately tight, as I wanted to cram in as much gas as possible (hence omitting basic land no. 7). I like having a very high threat density. Filtering out as much lands as possible from my library helps with that.

[cherson]

did you guys test Verdurous Gearhulk as pure finisher?
echelon I know you considered the giant instead of sorin..

card looks awesome. 5cmc 8/8 trample optional pump a rhino, sigarda etc!?

sorry if you discussed it already and I missed it.

[Echelon]

did you guys test Verdurous Gearhulk as pure finisher?
echelon I know you considered the giant instead of sorin..

card looks awesome. 5cmc 8/8 trample optional pump a rhino, sigarda etc!?

sorry if you discussed it already and I missed it.

Still am. Just don't have the time to test it.

Things is though - it doesn't do shit vs. Miracles and I've managed to power through D&T without it just fine. I keep going back and forth. It mostly is nice in the Eldrazi MU.

[Ganfar]

Glad to hear that!

The main goal of the list is to get out of the early game ASAP, quickly power through to the late game and bring your opponents to their knees from there.

I guess the manabase can be a bit tricky (since it's only 21 lands and focuses very strongly on fetching basics as much as you can), but you get used to it eventually. Mana is deliberately tight, as I wanted to cram in as much gas as possible (hence omitting basic land no. 7). I like having a very high threat density. Filtering out as much lands as possible from my library helps with that.

There is only one 5 drop in the deck so it should be find.

The thing that makes me angry when I play Nic-Fit is to see three lands on the top. If we can get away with 21 lands, I am in.

[Brael]

Oh FFS not another 3-drop I have to somehow cram in there. I can see it being good (as I run 10 fetchlands and all). But damn man, we only have 60 slots. OMG, lol.

I don't know what you're talking about, I have 61 slots. Seriously though, I'm using it as a SB card, but it's a great SB card (I would have it MB if I wasn't playing Monastery Mentors though). I think people are overthinking just how much of a toolbox you need. Most people these days are running 2-3 utility lands, that's all your Knight needs to fetch if they're impactful enough. In fact I would argue that just having a single Volrath's to fetch is worth the Knight as a sideboard plan.

It's like using Primeval Titan for the two towers, except you get to do it at 3 mana less, and have your towers assembled a turn earlier. Or alternatively, you just get one tower and use the rest of the time to hit the opponent really hard.


Also If I am going to run with KotR, when I want Wasteland and utility lands.

You're overthinking things. Wasteland is at it's best as a T1/T2 play, off a Knight it's a T4 play, and the rest of the deck gives the opponent mana anyways. You don't need Wasteland. I find I don't really want to tutor Phyrexian Tower either (but that might come up sometime). Basically, I run 2 KotR targets in my deck, Cavern of Souls and Volrath's Stronghold. I'm fine running them without tutors too, but tutoring makes it better. You'll get plenty of value doing something similar if you go Volraths+Something.

In other words, we're kind of spoiled because of GSZ tutoring for 10 different cards. SFM has widely shown though (or Ranger of Eos and KotR if you want to take my word for it) that you don't need 10 tutor options. 2-3 options to find is more than enough. If you pick some good ones you'll almost always be able to find something useful.

Edit: Thought of this description earlier. The build I'm playing, feels like I'm playing Vintage while my opponents are stuck in Legacy. I don't know how many here have ever played Vintage but the hallmark of the format is a low curve, with fast mana, high card velocity, and lots of CA. That's exactly what I have. The threats/answers differ a bit but playing a Vintage deck feels a lot like playing SE Fit (need to do something about that name I think).

[Echelon]

The thing that makes me angry when I play Nic-Fit is to see three lands on the top. If we can get away with 21 lands, I am in.

When 10 out of your 21 lands are fetchlands odds are 1 of those 3 is a fetchland. Just draw that and shuffle the other 2 away. Might cost you a turn, but costing just 1 turn is still better than 3.


Edit: Thought of this description earlier. The build I'm playing, feels like I'm playing Vintage while my opponents are stuck in Legacy. I don't know how many here have ever played Vintage but the hallmark of the format is a low curve, with fast mana, high card velocity, and lots of CA. That's exactly what I have. The threats/answers differ a bit but playing a Vintage deck feels a lot like playing SE Fit (need to do something about that name I think).

Meh, I like SE Fit. Fits the bill just right. But, in the words of everybodies favorite Porsche/vintage Ferrari loving dentist: Post your list, scrub!

[Brael]

Meh, I like SE Fit. Fits the bill just right. But, in the words of everybodies favorite Porsche/vintage Ferrari loving dentist: Post your list, scrub!

I don't think the name is cool enough, needs some marketing spin. Maybe SEX Fit. Systems Engineering eXperiment.

The list was posted a few days ago, listing it again just feels like spam so I'll link to it
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=973103&viewfull=1#post973103

The only change is that I settled on the Toxic Deluge as the last cut. I can go over my SB choices from my matches the other day though.

Against Pox
-2 Monastery Mentor (because I pulled off the combo in G1)
-1 Sylvan Safekeeper (all of the opponents removal was sacrifice based)
-1 Abrupt Decay (having the decklist meant I knew there was nothing random I cared about)

+1 Knight of the Reliquary
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Noble Hierarch

Basically I brought in more mana fearing Armageddon or a better LD draw from my opponent

Against Eldrazi
-1 Scavenging Ooze (doesn't do much)
-2 Monastery Mentor (combo can be locked out by chalice)
-1 Bayou

+1 Cavern of Souls (Chalice protection)
+1 Shriekmaw (strong removal)
+1 Knight of the Reliquary (awesome enabler for the Volrath's/Shriekmaw combo btw)
+1 Noble Hierarch (mana through chalice, adds to board)

Against D&T
-2 Monastery Mentor (prowess is too slow with taxes)
-1 Cabal Therapy (less sacrifice fodder)
-1 GSZ (taxes)
-1 SDT (taxes)
-1 Scavenging Ooze (doesn't do much)
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+1 Noble Hierarch
+1 Shriekmaw
+1 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Pernicious Deed

Again, the strategy was to bring in mana to negate their denial plan, alongside some removal and card quality. Knight is odd in this match, I definitely want Volrath's with Shriekmaw, but because they exile everything Volrath's doesn't do much else. I was thinking I might be able to use a Phyrexian Tower to blank Jitte, but it never came up.

Worth noting, I took the Mentor combo out in every game. I think it's a good G1 plan but in postboard games I preferred having Knight of the Reliquary+other stuff. I don't know if I would do that in every match, but I liked the plan in these ones.

[Navsi]

Taking Sneak-Fit again tomorrow. I'm currently on this list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sneak Attack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Flex Slot

22 Lands (3 Grove, 2 Towers)

Not sure what goes in the flex slot. Currently I'm leaning towards a Nissa, Vital Force. Other options are Meren, Huntmaster, Tireless Tracker, Maelstrom Pulse, third Pires. What do you guys think?

[crowe_1]

I guess you talked about this already but...no Griselbrand?

[Navsi]

If you have Sneak, Bellower is better, since he finds Emrakul and swings for 21.

If you don't have Sneak, Bellower is better since he's actually castable without huge difficulty.

[Brael]

Not sure what goes in the flex slot. Currently I'm leaning towards a Nissa, Vital Force. Other options are Meren, Huntmaster, Tireless Tracker, Maelstrom Pulse, third Pires. What do you guys think?

I like Pulse as the flex slot, you've fixed a lot of complaints I had with the deck which was a lack of removal, but another piece of removal over a mediocre creature, or a PW you can't Sneak isn't going to hurt anything. I think I would rank those options as Pulse, Nissa, Punishing Fire, Huntmaster, Tracker/Meren (I think if it ever comes to either of these two, things have gone horribly wrong).


I guess you talked about this already but...no Griselbrand?

Any time you can get Griselbrand you can just get Emrakul and win the game instead. That was my experience with it atleast.

[Navsi]

I like Pulse as the flex slot, you've fixed a lot of complaints I had with the deck which was a lack of removal, but another piece of removal over a mediocre creature, or a PW you can't Sneak isn't going to hurt anything. I think I would rank those options as Pulse, Nissa, Punishing Fire, Huntmaster, Tracker/Meren (I think if it ever comes to either of these two, things have gone horribly wrong).

Pulse and Nissa are definitely the two options I'm leaning towards most. Pulse is universally okay, but I'm already playing Reclamation Sage for most of the targets I can't kill with Decay or Punishing Fire. The only thing I don't kill with Sage, Decay and Fire is CMC>3 creatures, which generally aren't that much of a problem in my experience - I guess Anglers and Smashers are okay, but Sneak in general is pretty good against the decks that play Angler and Smasher. There's also always Deed / Deluge to clear up anything the rest of the removal doesn't kill.

I do like Pulse, but it's not as necessary here as in lists without maindeck artifact/enchantment hate and with Punishing Fire to kill planeswalkers. I'm leaning towards Nissa since she can rebuy Sneak Attacks, which is absurd. I might swap the Toxic Deluge for a third Pernicious Deed given that Nissa can return Deed, although Deluge is nice against the decks where we don't have time to get the mana for Deed (i.e. Elves).

[apolloscr33d]

Taking Sneak-Fit again tomorrow. I'm currently on this list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sneak Attack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Flex Slot

22 Lands (3 Grove, 2 Towers)

Not sure what goes in the flex slot. Currently I'm leaning towards a Nissa, Vital Force. Other options are Meren, Huntmaster, Tireless Tracker, Maelstrom Pulse, third Pires. What do you guys think?

I've been running dragonloard atarka in place of inferno titan and combustible gear hulk in your flex spot. Its been working out pretty nice. I get to play it in a tournament tomorrow for a monthly legacy event

[Warden]

Flex Slot I'd consider another sweeper or pulse.
You could also consider the 15/15 wurm dude like big red plays.

[Navsi]

Okay, tournament done!

I took the list above, with Nissa in the flex slot and this sideboard:

2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To The Slaughter
2 Golgari Charm
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre

Round 1: Reanimator

Game 1 he keeps a hand with two Lotus Petals and no lands, and proceeds to fizzle and die.
Game 2 he makes a Griselbrand before I get any discard, and I draw no removal and die.
Game 3 he makes a Griselbrand before I get any discard, and I draw no removal and die.

This was disappointing.

Round 2: Miracles

Game 1 he casts an early Entreat, which I blow up with Deed. I trade for his counterspells repeatedly and eventually run him out and resolve an Inferno Titan. He makes his second Entreat for six angels - I can't find a Deed in 12 cards and lose.
Game 2 I Slaughter JTMS, then trade off Zeniths and Nissa for counterspells before eventually Slaughter-ing for Entreat also. I get Carpet of Flowers (for 8 mana) and can hardcast Emrakul, but can't kill him before turns run out.

Round 3: Shardless

Game 1 he can't answer my Inferno Titan and dies.
Game 2 I have turn two Sneak, which eats a Force, so I Witness and play it again for lethal off Bellower/Emrakul on turn four.

Round 4: Food Chain

Game 1 he gets three Griffins and Food Chain, but doesn't have Emrakul. I decay Chain, Deluge the board and kill him with Inferno Titan.
Game 2 he makes Emrakul on turn three and I scoop up my cards.
Game 3 I discard his Empath leaving him with a Decay, Strix, Empath and some other irrelevant cards. I Sneak some stuff and he dies.

Round 5: Reanimator

Game 1 he mulligans to 5, keeps zero lands (Careful Study, Entomb, Exhume, Reanimate, FOW). I Therapy him but don't want to flashback and give him lands. Explorer beats down for a few turns - he tops a land and entombs Griselbrand, but I play three Therapies and take all his reanimation and Study. He rips Reanimate, makes Griselbrand and I die.
Game 2 I Slaughter Griselbrand and make an Inferno Titan. He makes Ashen Rider. I sneak in Bellower + Emrakul, he sacs Rider to Annihilator and exiles Emrakul - I finish him off with Empath beats.
Game 3 I make a Top, he Needles it, and I slam Sneak into Emrakul. Next turn I Zenith for Empath, get Emrakul again and kill him.

Finish up 3-2, just outside of top 4 on tiebreakers.

Sidisi didn't do much.
Bellower was excellent - I hardly ever wanted Primeval Titan. Zenithing for Bellower + Empath + Inferno Titan was great.
Nissa only came up once (vs Miracles) and immediately ate a Force. Needs more testing.
I didn't miss Meren.
To The Slaughter was sided in a lot, but I never drew it.

[Brael]

That's a rough field, 2x Reanimator basically starts your tournament at 0-2. On the bright side, you went 2-0-1 with the rest.

[Navsi]

That's a rough field, 2x Reanimator basically starts your tournament at 0-2. On the bright side, you went 2-0-1 with the rest.

I beat the second Reanimator player - my other loss was to Miracles, where the match result was 0 - 1 - 1.

The first Reanimator player was new to the deck, and I felt like I had a chance - I just didn't see any early hate / removal in any of the games.

Deck feels very strong.

[Brael]

I beat the second Reanimator player - my other loss was to Miracles, where the match result was 0 - 1 - 1.

The first Reanimator player was new to the deck, and I felt like I had a chance - I just didn't see any early hate / removal in any of the games.

Deck feels very strong.

I guess I wasn't clear in my comment, you won but the match is close to an autolose except for the times their deck beats itself. That just evened out with the bad luck in the other match.

Back to the topic of the flex slot, have you considered an edict? I've been considering the same, Blessed Alliance in my case, but I suppose it would be Diabolic Edict in yours. If you're facing a lot of Emrakul's that could be a good way to deal with them.

[Navsi]

I guess I wasn't clear in my comment, you won but the match is close to an autolose except for the times their deck beats itself. That just evened out with the bad luck in the other match.

Back to the topic of the flex slot, have you considered an edict? I've been considering the same, Blessed Alliance in my case, but I suppose it would be Diabolic Edict in yours. If you're facing a lot of Emrakul's that could be a good way to deal with them.

I'm running To The Slaughter in the sideboard as an edict.

I don't think Reanimator is that bad to be honest. It's not great - you basically need a discard/removal spell before their turn two, with more to follow within the next couple of turns - but that's basically the same as other fast combo decks like Storm and Show and Tell. They have some amount of inevitability, but you play 4+ extraction effects for Griselbrand, and you have a pretty reliably turn 4-5 kill which isn't that bad to be honest. It's not a good matchup but I'd say it was closer to 35/65 than 10/90.

[crowe_1]

Any time you can get Griselbrand you can just get Emrakul and win the game instead. That was my experience with it atleast.

Fair enough I suppose. My experience versus Sneak n Show is that Emrakul is the beatable/last resort creature, whereas when Griselbrand hits the table I'm toast since there's no way to catch up on cards and they're highly likely to draw Emrakul anyway. No counterspells plus only one Emrakul is probably the difference. I can see it.

[adrieng]

Maybe in the sneak fit list ou could fitt some food chain. Food chain is most of the time better than sneak cause with a single fierce empath bellower you are gone hardcast emrakull.
Fierce empath+2 mana give you bellower 6+1 for empath +4 for bellower+1 for empath +4 =15 mana for emmy.
Though you have to play 3 fierce empath and 2 bellower for that purpose.
I think you could mix both food chain and sneak. Somehing needs to be tested.
More gamebreaking spells is very good. I would cut in the sneakList the weakest singleton : primeval titan thragtusk sakura and 1 sidisi and the flex slot for +3 food chain +1 bellower+1 empath.

[Navsi]

Fair enough I suppose. My experience versus Sneak n Show is that Emrakul is the beatable/last resort creature, whereas when Griselbrand hits the table I'm toast since there's no way to catch up on cards and they're highly likely to draw Emrakul anyway. No counterspells plus only one Emrakul is probably the difference. I can see it.

Show & Tell is very different because you pass the turn before attacking, and if removal is available Emrakul does nothing, whereas Griselbrand still puts you way ahead.

Basically if the opponent has non-spell removal available at instant speed (Karakas, pretty much) Griselbrand wins out, but otherwise Emrakul is always fine. Also if your opponent does have Karakas, you can always do something like Bellower - Inferno Titan - swing for 12 + 6 titan damage which is usually just fine anyway.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Deathrite Shaman

This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.

[Arianrhod]

Show & Tell is very different because you pass the turn before attacking, and if removal is available Emrakul does nothing, whereas Griselbrand still puts you way ahead.

Basically if the opponent has non-spell removal available at instant speed (Karakas, pretty much) Griselbrand wins out, but otherwise Emrakul is always fine. Also if your opponent does have Karakas, you can always do something like Bellower - Inferno Titan - swing for 12 + 6 titan damage which is usually just fine anyway.

If you have RR, this is incorrect. You can R: sneak Emrakul. Move to declare attacks. If he DOESNT Karakas now, he annihilates 6. If he DOES, you R: sneak Emrakul, and pass priority again. Karakas does not stop Sneak+Emrakul as long as you have extra red mana available to dump into it. If you don't, then yes, there exist other lines that are better. But just keep that trick in mind.

[Ralf]

This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.

May I suggest a 1 or 2-of Sudden shock in your sideboard ?

[Navsi]

This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.

I found Empath #2 to be very useful. In particular, it lets you Zenith for Bellower - Empath - Titan, and still have Zenith + Sneak Attack as a game ending combo in future turns.

I'm running a very similar list:

-1 Meren
-1 Punishing Fire
-1 Library
-1 Deed
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Fierce Empath
+1 Toxic Deluge
+1 Nissa, Vital Force

If you're playing Bellower, I'd want to play the Reclamation Sage. It's live against basically everything in DTB right now, and a lot of other decks too. Meren never felt important to me, but if you want a Zenith@4 target I suppose it's her or Huntmaster.

Library might be a better option than Nissa. It's definitely faster, although it puts you further onto the "6-drops or bust" plan. To be honest, since I've been running Bellower, I've had less reason to run Primeval Titan. If you have Zenith for 6, it's usually better to get Bellower into either Titan than to get Primeval directly.

[Ulysse95]

4 Veteran Explorer
This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.

Hi!

Have you consider rune-scarred demon (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte.php?ref=12m105) instead of bellower?
It doesn't need the second empath to work.
It's got an evasive ability with flying to ensure to be lethal with Emrakul.

[Echelon]

Hi!

Have you consider rune-scarred demon (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte.php?ref=12m105) instead of bellower?
It doesn't need the second empath to work.
It's got an evasive ability with flying to ensure to be lethal with Emrakul.

Try reading Green Sun's Zenith again and ponder its implications for a second...

[Whitefaces]

Try reading Green Sun's Zenith again and ponder its implications for a second...

Or just don't be a dick and point it out without such a condescending attitude. It's unwarranted and unnecessary.

[Echelon]

Or just don't be a dick and point it out without such a condescending attitude. It's unwarranted and unnecessary.

Meh, some condescension is a fine way to make people think before posting so they can answer their own silly questions before bothering others with them. How else will people ever learn when you just cater to their every whim..?

Seriously, if, as a Nic Fit pilot, you manage to oversee the relevance of GSZ when wanting to replace one creature for another you're doing something very, very wrong. It's one of the main reasons why this deck even exists.

[Whitefaces]

Meh, some condescension is a fine way to make people think before posting so they can answer their own silly questions before bothering others with them. How else will people ever learn when you just cater to their every whim..?

Seriously, if, as a Nic Fit pilot, you manage to oversee the relevance of GSZ when wanting to replace one creature for another you're doing something very, very wrong. It's one of the main reasons why this deck even exists.

No, it's not. Some people are new to the deck, or simply overlook it by mistake despite knowing what GSZ does. It's just a really shitty attitude and will put any potential new Nic Fit players off from posting in the thread. I used to be quite active and read the thread compulsively, but this kind of crap has put me off completely.

[rubblekill]

I used to be quite active and read the thread compulsively, but this kind of crap has put me off completely.

You are not alone.
:cry:

[Echelon]

Or you just learn to role with the punches, how to hold your own and get your knowledge and thought processes up to par. How do you expect to improve when you throw in the towel as soon as you face any adversity? Sheesh.

Besides, it has nothing to do with the person asking the question, it only has to do with the question itself. The question's stupid, the person asking it isn't. It's crucial to understand that. That's how discussions work (and why you can have them and still go for a beer together afterwards).

[Whitefaces]

Or you just learn to role with the punches, how to hold your own and get your knowledge and thought processes up to par. How do you expect to improve when you throw in the towel as soon as you face any adversity? Sheesh.

Besides, it has nothing to do with the person asking the question, it only has to do with the question itself. The question's stupid, the person asking it isn't. It's crucial to understand that. That's how discussions work (and why you can have them and still go for a beer together afterwards).

Role with the punches? Hold your own? You are truly deluded. Who exactly is throwing in a towel when faced with adversity?

I'd be interested to know if anybody appreciates this attitude. We're not trying to 'weed out' any bad players, so why be so condescending? Be friendly and inclusive. By all means tell people why a suggestion wouldn't work, that's why we have forums like this, but there's no need to be rude about it.

[Echelon]

Role with the punches? Hold your own? You are truly deluded. Who exactly is throwing in a towel when faced with adversity?

Going by the posts so far, you & rubble are.

To answer your second question - the general populace in its entirety is probably against this attitude, mostly b/c it's easier to fool around w/ kid gloves and kitchen table stuff than to come up w/ anything even possibly remotely competitive. People bitch just as much when you take your time to explain why their idea is horrible in the kindest of ways b/c in their minds it's the most amazing thing ever. And do they repay the courtesy of a well thought out argument? Nope. It usually boils down to "Meh, it works for me". Very productive.

That's the attitude we should strive for, right? "Meh, it works for me".

Edit: Bonus observation: Only one person had to resort to a personal attack during this exchange. Guess who that was..?

And I'm the problem. Lol.

[cherson]

No, it's not. Some people are new to the deck, or simply overlook it by mistake despite knowing what GSZ does. It's just a really shitty attitude and will put any potential new Nic Fit players off from posting in the thread. I used to be quite active and read the thread compulsively, but this kind of crap has put me off completely.
But people who decide to play nicfit should learn/know the main cards by 100% before actually playing the deck and gsz is one of them.

OK, Echelon has a 'very direct' way to answer silly questions but instead of starting a never ending discussion you could have answered: 'wow, my bad, I can't read [emoji12] but thanks for reminding me'


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[Brael]

I'd be interested to know if anybody appreciates this attitude. We're not trying to 'weed out' any bad players, so why be so condescending? Be friendly and inclusive. By all means tell people why a suggestion wouldn't work, that's why we have forums like this, but there's no need to be rude about it.

That sort of attitude doesn't bother me, it answered the question. I can see where it upsets some people, but it's the internet a thick skin is pretty helpful.


But people who decide to play nicfit should learn/know the main cards by 100% before actually playing the deck and gsz is one of them.

OK, Echelon has a 'very direct' way to answer silly questions but instead of starting a never ending discussion you could have answered: 'wow, my bad, I can't read [emoji12] but thanks for reminding me'


Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk

I think a big part of it is the decks reputation, it's mainly seen as a casual deck or Legacy EDH because of the singletons, budget too because of the manabase. That leads to people playing the deck as if they're playing EDH and doing fun things like themes over what's actually effective. The reality though is just the opposite, it's pretty tough to be a fair creature deck in Legacy and to be successful you need to make use of all the tools available.

In that context it's helpful in my opinion to occasionally harshly remind people that some ideas just aren't very good, and I say that as someone who puts forward more than their fair share of bad ideas.

[Whitefaces]

Going by the posts so far, you & rubble are.

To answer your second question - the general populace in its entirety is probably against this attitude, mostly b/c it's easier to fool around w/ kid gloves and kitchen table stuff than to come up w/ anything even possibly remotely competitive. People bitch just as much when you take your time to explain why their idea is horrible in the kindest of ways b/c in their minds it's the most amazing thing ever. And do they repay the courtesy of a well thought out argument? Nope. It usually boils down to "Meh, it works for me". Very productive.

That's the attitude we should strive for, right? "Meh, it works for me".

Edit: Bonus observation: Only one person had to resort to a personal attack during this exchange. Guess who that was..?

And I'm the problem. Lol.

I wouldn't really call it a personal attack, but I'll accept it given that it's your attitude I have a problem with. The condescending tone really isn't necessary and is very off-putting. If others don't care about it, fine, I'll rest my case. But I'd advise you to check out the Infect thread. Plenty of people ask about bad cards there and the main posters explain to them why they'd be a sub optimal choice sensibly without the need to be rude or condescending. It creates a much better environment and encourages more people to post ideas without the fear of getting told off.


But people who decide to play nicfit should learn/know the main cards by 100% before actually playing the deck and gsz is one of them.

OK, Echelon has a 'very direct' way to answer silly questions but instead of starting a never ending discussion you could have answered: 'wow, my bad, I can't read [emoji12] but thanks for reminding me'


Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk

Sure, they should learn the cards, but people overlook things or are new to the deck and don't know everything, that's the reality of it. GSZ isn't played in every style of Nic Fit either.

It wasn't me that made the suggestion...


That sort of attitude doesn't bother me, it answered the question. I can see where it upsets some people, but it's the internet a thick skin is pretty helpful.



I think a big part of it is the decks reputation, it's mainly seen as a casual deck or Legacy EDH because of the singletons, budget too because of the manabase. That leads to people playing the deck as if they're playing EDH and doing fun things like themes over what's actually effective. The reality though is just the opposite, it's pretty tough to be a fair creature deck in Legacy and to be successful you need to make use of all the tools available.

Fair enough. It's not that it's 'upsetting', just rather annoying as this thread used to be quite pleasant.

Eh, I play Nic Fit because I like beating good decks with Grave Titans. I get that some people want the deck to be competitive, but it's still a tier 2 strategy at the end of the day.

[Brael]

Fair enough. It's not that it's 'upsetting', just rather annoying as this thread used to be quite pleasant.

Eh, I play Nic Fit because I like beating good decks with Grave Titans. I get that some people want the deck to be competitive, but it's still a tier 2 strategy at the end of the day.

I can agree with the tone change of the thread, I think it's because the suggestions have changed though, there's also more viable directions to take things lately. Just about everyone is on their own unique strategy at this point. Also the deck has been attracting a lot of people that are brand new to Legacy lately. In fact if you go check out the Reddit Legacy forum, Nic Fit is the second most popular archetype with only Miracles getting more written about it.

Part of people being new to Legacy means teaching them the truths of the format. People locally might just play casual "cards I own" decks and call it Legacy but the format itself is a lot different from that. Real Legacy requires a baseline amount of interaction in every deck, or a plan to win before the opponent can interact.

As far as it being a T2 strategy goes, the deck does occasionally enter DTB status, and I would argue that the better builds are on par with anything in T1.

[Arianrhod]

I can agree with the tone change of the thread, I think it's because the suggestions have changed though, there's also more viable directions to take things lately. Just about everyone is on their own unique strategy at this point. Also the deck has been attracting a lot of people that are brand new to Legacy lately. In fact if you go check out the Reddit Legacy forum, Nic Fit is the second most popular archetype with only Miracles getting more written about it.

Part of people being new to Legacy means teaching them the truths of the format. People locally might just play casual "cards I own" decks and call it Legacy but the format itself is a lot different from that. Real Legacy requires a baseline amount of interaction in every deck, or a plan to win before the opponent can interact.

As far as it being a T2 strategy goes, the deck does occasionally enter DTB status, and I would argue that the better builds are on par with anything in T1.

Sneak is the first version in a long time where I think the deck could legit end up in DTB. Nic Fit has always had the "problem" of being a metagame predator -- you could play vs RUG Delver every round and cruise to the top 8, or you could play vs random garbage or random combos and just die early in the day. This is part of why I feel so strongly about the Sneak version: it has a strong, proactive gameplan when presented with random nonsense. It doesn't matter what durdling you're doing, I have a plan, I know what I'm doing and how I'm going to win the game, and then it just comes down to preventing you from interacting with that plan // not dying while I execute it. Sneak is the best Nic Fit vs combo that I've ever found. It has a swift clock that can race some combo hands, backed with a good amount of disruption. Yes, sometimes they have the nut and without Force of Will we just die. Shit happens. But vs any "reasonable" combo hand, or any combo hand where they need like two turns to set up, we are more than capable of competing. The strength and speed of Sneak Attack has a lot to do with that. Blue Nic Fits and White Nic Fits have historically had more protection or lock, but they lacked the ability to close the game and combo decks inevitably regain their footing and go off -- they're built from the ground up with beating blue decks with multiple Forces, cantrips, Dazes, Pierces, etc in mind. They have to be able to recover. We can't afford to play that game and hope to beat combo, and without any hope of beating combo, Nic Fit was doomed to rot in T2.

[Whitefaces]

Nic Fit has always had the "problem" of being a metagame predator -- you could play vs RUG Delver every round and cruise to the top 8, or you could play vs random garbage or random combos and just die early in the day.

This is how I feel too. My comment on being a tier two deck wasn't meant to be in a specifically negative way, it's just the place it's sitting at the moment because of the reasons you've shown. Junk seems to be the most played version of Fit currently and it struggles against Miracles too.

Your Sneak Attack version looks very promising though, I'm trying to trade into the Sneak Attacks currently to play it.

[Brael]

We can't afford to play that game and hope to beat combo, and without any hope of beating combo, Nic Fit was doomed to rot in T2.

This is the problem I run into. I like my current CA focused build as much as you like Sneak. It beats everything but combo, but the combo plan is pretty weak. I've been trying to address that, but locally combo isn't very big so there's a lack of opportunity to test it. I've been big on Tidehollow Sculler for the past few months as my additional discard of choice, basically trying to use cards that can disrupt for a turn or two while also letting me hit the opponent.

I do however feel like I have a positive Miracles matchup. Maybe that's due to the quality of the Miracles pilots I go up against, or maybe the build actually works. I'm not entirely sure but I know I beat the deck a lot more than it beats me.


As far as combos go, I've been trying out Mentor/Top. It hasn't been a runaway success but it has been a reasonable clock.

[Ricardio]

You are not alone.
:cry:

I used to take pride in this deck and this thread but that has long since went by the wayside. I don't play the deck anymore because I cannot stand MTGO Miracles.format and I have no where to play locally irl. I don't post anymore because I feel like my opinion isn't as up to date as other who are actively playing it. I will say that being aggressive and negative will not make this deck nor this thread better. If you are hellbent on the deck only being tier 2, that's your prerogative but some believe otherwise and if you are trying to squelch their belief, that makes you the absolute opposite of helpful. Think before you post because people undoubtedly look to this thread for suggestions and help and we want to be portrayed in a positive light, not bickering amongst ourselves like a playground of children.

[Whitefaces]

If you are hellbent on the deck only being tier 2, that's your prerogative but some believe otherwise and if you are trying to squelch their belief, that makes you the absolute opposite of helpful.

That's a pretty big leap from what was actually said.

I said the deck is tier two because it is. I didn't say it can't move up. Just because you believe a deck to be tier one doesn't make it so, you need results to back it up from large tournaments. Look, I love the deck to bits and have been playing it for years, but let's not get too delusional.

I do however believe Sneak Fit can be a pretty big player, so there's that.

[uncletiggy]

I've seen some aluren lists lately running therapy/vet. Im wondering if anyone here has explored that avenue from the nicfit side of things. Arianrhod has been working diligently to fold Sneak Attack into viability in jund im wondering if there is a 4 color bug list with alluren we are just overlooking entirely?

@ echelon-On a side note- hostility from posters pushed me out of the elves thread for suggesting exploring natural order before the printing of crater hoof and while not correct at the time printings made it a reality. Its no ones responsibility to police the thread and if you dont like the questions or suggestions being put forth there is no obligation to respond let alone with any sort of negativity. Just remember no one trolled you away for pushing summoners egg for a year....

[Brael]

I've seen some aluren lists lately running therapy/vet. Im wondering if anyone here has explored that avenue from the nicfit side of things. Arianrhod has been working diligently to fold Sneak Attack into viability in jund im wondering if there is a 4 color bug list with alluren we are just overlooking entirely?

I think everyone is interested in BUG, it's a topic that pops up every few weeks. No one has really figured it out though. I just got my Underground/Tropical in the mail today so I have a proper BUG manabase now. I'm definitely interested in trying something out, but my usual problem is that I have more ideas than I have opportunity to test them, so they sit around for awhile before I can. On the testing front though I've got my League and we just started up local Legacy nights again so maybe things will improve there.

The difficult part of BUG in my experience is that FoW and GSZ don't play well together and that's a conflict that needs to be solved before moving forward with the deck. FoW leads to a Baleful Strix build I think, while GSZ is more traditional. One idea I have right now, which is just in the planning stages (haven't even made a full list) is to borrow the Perilous Research suggestion from a couple weeks ago, and see if it's possible to make a Shardless BUG style deck with the Nic Fit engine. What makes Nic Fit so successful in my opinion is that we have the best manabase in the format, and consequently I think that's a major hole in decks like Shardless and Delver (and that if they were less greedy they would be far more formidable than they are). Being able to address it would be great. Essentially Shardless Agent and value with rock solid mana. The inclusion of GSZ confuses me though because GSZ+Agent is a bit of an issue but GSZ is what makes our mana work in the first place.

[Ricardio]

That's a pretty big leap from what was actually said.

I said the deck is tier two because it is. I didn't say it can't move up. Just because you believe a deck to be tier one doesn't make it so, you need results to back it up from large tournaments. Look, I love the deck to bits and have been playing it for years, but let's not get too delusional.

I do however believe Sneak Fit can be a pretty big player, so there's that.

I'm not placing blame upon you in regards to my previous statement. I am saying we should be looking for the ceiling and not become complacent with where we are.

Sneak fit sounds awesome.

[Zirath]

There are many reasons why Nic Fit hasn't managed to break out of tier 2. Some of them are self-enforced. Mostly, Nic Fit is difficult to both build and play well. It requires patience and makes some very risky assumptions that most players won't. Similar to other ramp decks, like MUD and 12-Post, it has an awkward angle that it participates in the game. The inception of Miracles also meant that all slow decks need to find inevitable win conditions because people can recover from disruption. GSZ actually makes us slower overall in exchange for consistency, which means that what we find off GSZ has to be very efficient. This is the reason ScapeFit has succeeded at a large scale while "Big Rock" tends to struggle. SneakFit is in that heritage. If Shardless is the only Rock deck that has managed to survive as a deck to beat, what chance does Abzan or Jund really have realistically?

At the end of the day, Fit needs to be able to win before its opponent gets back into the game. Despite the claim that our top decks are better, it's really that our ideal top decks are better. Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy are still poop in an empty board.

[Brael]

There are many reasons why Nic Fit hasn't managed to break out of tier 2. Some of them are self-enforced. Mostly, Nic Fit is difficult to both build and play well. It requires patience and makes some very risky assumptions that most players won't. Similar to other ramp decks, like MUD and 12-Post, it has an awkward angle that it participates in the game. The inception of Miracles also meant that all slow decks need to find inevitable win conditions because people can recover from disruption. GSZ actually makes us slower overall in exchange for consistency, which means that what we find off GSZ has to be very efficient. This is the reason ScapeFit has succeeded at a large scale while "Big Rock" tends to struggle. SneakFit is in that heritage. If Shardless is the only Rock deck that has managed to survive as a deck to beat, what chance does Abzan or Jund really have realistically?

At the end of the day, Fit needs to be able to win before its opponent gets back into the game. Despite the claim that our top decks are better, it's really that our ideal top decks are better. Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy are still poop in an empty board.

I think this mainly comes down to a misunderstanding in the format with most players. Because we have mana ramp, people play higher mana cards, but higher mana cards just create bigger blowouts from Daze, FoW, or even Swords to Plowshares. That's the trap that ramp decks fall into, the problem is with mana disruption which Legacy has a lot of, ramp decks just fall apart. Because of this, I don't think you actually want big creatures, instead you want lower drops. Sneak Fit follows this principal by effectively topping the curve at 4 and using Sneak to play anything bigger. I've been doing the same with a lower curve.

Basically, in Legacy you should use mana acceleration to increase card velocity rather than to increase card size that way if your mana gets disrupted you can still do some things.

[Jain_Mor]

I used to take pride in this deck and this thread but that has long since went by the wayside. I don't play the deck anymore because I cannot stand MTGO Miracles.format and I have no where to play locally irl. I don't post anymore because I feel like my opinion isn't as up to date as other who are actively playing it.

I feel your pain. Im in the exact same situation and also sometimes come back to this thread and facepalm hard.

Need to find the motivation to test Sneak Fit online at least a few times though (glad punishing fire has been adopted and Bellower is a great innovation, keep it up gentleman)

@Echelon.. Honestly, you post like a teenager who's just discovered internet forums and thinks themselves smarter than they actually are. I find it annoying and this is a personal criticism. But whatever, I was once that guy too when I was a teenager; you're free to post how you like and people are free to comment on it.

[Echelon]

@ echelon-On a side note- hostility from posters pushed me out of the elves thread for suggesting exploring natural order before the printing of crater hoof and while not correct at the time printings made it a reality. Its no ones responsibility to police the thread and if you dont like the questions or suggestions being put forth there is no obligation to respond let alone with any sort of negativity. Just remember no one trolled you away for pushing summoners egg for a year....

I first started out on Elves! too. Didn't let it get me down though. As for Summoner's Egg, the funny thing is that the Sneak Attack build currently going around follows almost the exact same skeleton as that deck, with a few different cards that fulfill the same functions. It even took a couple of pointers from it (like Fierce Empath no. 2). So there's that. And I did expect to be badgered about it, if that's any consolation.


@Echelon.. Honestly, you post like a teenager who's just discovered internet forums and thinks themselves smarter than they actually are. I find it annoying and this is a personal criticism. But whatever, I was once that guy too when I was a teenager; you're free to post how you like and people are free to comment on it.

I fear that in my case it's more of an occupational hazard. Telling other people that their ideas are stupid is a part of my job (and so is getting told that my ideas are stupid). The reaction I'm used to getting (or giving) after some discussion is "Oh, well alrighty then" and after that we move on to whatever is next. No need to linger or to turn it into a storm in a glass of water. It's not personal, it has nothing to do with the person that comes up with the idea, it has to do with the fact that the idea does not help with what we're trying to achieve in whatever we're doing at that time. That's how it works. It's all about having a certain mindset. Excuse me for expecting that when I take a simple poke at something, the person who came up with the idea I'm poking at understands there's no need to take that personal and is capable of coming up with a proper response of their own.

@Dissection: Whenever I'm being a dick I'll start throwing some smileys in there to lighten the mood. Let's see if that's of any help. I was hoping to see Ulysse's opinion on this, by the way, since his post is what led to my comment (that triggered you etc.) in the first place.

[Zirath]

I fear that in my case it's more of an occupational hazard. Telling other people that their ideas are stupid is a part of my job (and so is getting told that my ideas are stupid). The reaction I'm used to getting (or giving) after some discussion is "Oh, well alrighty then" and after that we move on to whatever is next. No need to linger or to turn it into a storm in a glass of water. It's not personal, it has nothing to do with the person that comes up with the idea, it has to do with the fact that the idea does not help with what we're trying to achieve in whatever we're doing at that time. That's how it works.

@Dissection: Whenever I'm being a dick I'll start throwing some smileys in there to lighten the mood. Let's see if that's of any help.

I think you are confusing realism and elitism. It seems to be the opinion of most of your peers that your reaction to the suggestion of Rune-Scarred Demon was unnecessarily harsh and generally unhelpful. You also appear to be further teasing people with your "jokes". You are responsible for your actions and it's not within your power to ask people to act reasonably if you don't. If you expect to be treated a certain way, don't be surprised if it comes true.

[Echelon]

If you expect to be treated a certain way, don't be surprised if it comes true.

And do you hear me bitching about it in any form or way..?

No, you don't.

Do I care, in the slightest?

No, I don't.

[Zirath]

And do you hear me bitching about it in any form or way..?

No, you don't.

Do I care, in the slightest?

No, I don't.

Really.


It's not personal, it has nothing to do with the person that comes up with the idea, it has to do with the fact that the idea does not help with what we're trying to achieve in whatever we're doing at that time. That's how it works. It's all about having a certain mindset. Excuse me for expecting that when I take a simple poke at something, the person who came up with the idea I'm poking at understands there's no need to take that personal and is capable of coming up with a proper response of their own.

This doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care. This sounds like someone who's trying very hard to convince people he did nothing wrong and everyone should move forward.

Being correct and being right are not the same thing.

[Echelon]

This doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care. This sounds like someone who's trying very hard to convince people he did nothing wrong and everyone should move forward.

It's owning up to my behavior rather than choosing to just gloss over it. It's "This is how I'm wired, take from that what you will". If I'd felt the need to just move forward I just would have shut up for a day or 2 and that'd be the end of that.

[Zirath]

It's owning up to my behavior rather than choosing to just gloss over it. It's "This is how I'm wired, take from that what you will". If I'd felt the need to just move forward I just would have shut up for a day or 2 and that'd be the end of that.

I'm not sure you are owning up to anything. "That's the way I am" isn't a justification; it's a rationalization. If anything, that's the definition of glossing over it.

[Echelon]

Whatever floats your boat buddy.

[Ganfar]

That's a pretty big leap from what was actually said.

I said the deck is tier two because it is. I didn't say it can't move up. Just because you believe a deck to be tier one doesn't make it so, you need results to back it up from large tournaments. Look, I love the deck to bits and have been playing it for years, but let's not get too delusional.


I agree. Nic-Fit has good match-up with some of the Tier 1 deck (D&T, Shardless Bug, Eldrazi Stompy) but awful match-up aganist other tier 1 decks (Ant, R/G Land, Miracle Control).

The deck is a metacall deck when everyone want to play fair. That is why it's Tier 2 and never can be Tier 1.

[Navsi]

Thinking about the Sneak-Fit builds.

- Usually when I had Zenith @ 6 available, I was finding Bellower rather than Primeval Titan, since fetching an Inferno Titan is a pretty good way of providing game ending threats.

- When I had Sneak, my first tutor target was usually Emrakul (naturally) and the backup kill condition was Inferno Titan. Bellower into either is a ton of damage.

- I never really had much use for Primeval Titan because of this. If I'm going for the kill, there are better options, and if I'm going for value I'd rather Zenith bellower since it presents a better clock and more utility - it's already a 3-for-1 or better, going for the grindy lategame with Primeval doesn't feel worth it when we can make a 6/5 and a 6/6 which are already super lethal.

- Our fatties being green isn't actually necessary. This is because any time we would Zenith for them, we can zenith Bellower into fatty instead, giving us an additional 6/5 and 1/1 (and no colour issues) in exchange for delaying our actual haymaker for a turn. This is pretty much always the right choice in my experience - Zenithing a fatty and getting it removed is way worse than Zenithing Bellower and getting it killed. Primeval Titan is no faster a clock than Bellower anyway, let alone Bellower into Inferno Titan. Unless you're playing Wolf Run, which is nice but I don't think the Grove manabase can handle it, when the two Towers are better choices in a list with Primeval Titan. I'm leaning towards running a second Badlands in the slot, since more red sources is nice for Sneak activations, but we are low on black sources at the moment.

- Cutting Primeval Titan would also allow us to drop Volrath's Stronghold for a different land, which has the major benefit of improving our (slightly clunky) manabase, since we're trying to fit Groves into a three colour deck which also plays multiple colorless lands and 6+ basics.

With that in mind I've been thinking about switching Prime Time out for something more proactive. Making a load of tapped lands to try and grind people out (while leaving your grinding plan vulnerable to Wasteland and Swords) just doesn't feel strong when you could just kill them in two turns instead.

The problem is that there isn't a creature that fits what we want to do quite right. What we want is something that kills people if we cast it into a board of Bellower + Empath + nothing, and is relevant off a Sneak Attack. If we Zenithed @6 last turn, then we have 7-8 mana available so 8 mana is our upper limit for targets. That gives us Craterhoof Behemoth, who gives us a swing for 21 when cast undisrupted into a board of Bellower + Empath. Unfortunately for us, Craterhoof is pretty unimpressive when used with Sneak Attack.

To be honest though, I think our best bet might be to just run a second Woodland Bellower in that slot. If we want to grind games against sweepers/terminus, we can do so pretty thoroughly, and against pretty much anything else we can already make Inferno Titan. It also gives us another 'instant kill if I have sneak attack' card in the deck, beyond the 2 Empaths, 4 Zeniths, Emrakul, Sidisi and the first Bellower.


It might be worth considering Empath targets which are relevant when we don't have Sneak Attack, however. We already have lethal very reliably off of a lot of cards if Sneak Attack is active - as above, we have 9+ 'you lose' cards in the deck which combo with Sneak.

In particular, I'm thinking of cards which we can tutor up which are relevant prior to our sixth land drop. Naturally Empath can fetch us up a chain giving us board presence, but the only disruption we have available is Inferno Titan, which can be a little slow, and doesn't interact with combo decks very much.

Although it doesn't work with Sneak, I'm leaning towards running Distended Mindbender somewhere in the 75. If we make an Empath off of three mana, next turn we can feed the Empath in and cast Mindbender for 2BB, so we curve out perfectly. It doesn't trigger off Sneak (although it's still a 5/5 if we need it), but it does hugely disrupt fast combo which I get the impression remains one of the deck's weaknesses.

[Echelon]

It might be worth considering Empath targets which are relevant when we don't have Sneak Attack, however. We already have lethal very reliably off of a lot of cards if Sneak Attack is active - as above, we have 9+ 'you lose' cards in the deck which combo with Sneak.

In particular, I'm thinking of cards which we can tutor up which are relevant prior to our sixth land drop. Naturally Empath can fetch us up a chain giving us board presence, but the only disruption we have available is Inferno Titan, which can be a little slow, and doesn't interact with combo decks very much.

You can always opt for a Gurmag Angler. Empath into a 1 mana 5/5 is pretty good (and can be pulled off over 2 turns w/ just 3 land as long as your graveyard is big enough) and Bellower -> Empath -> Angler isn't horrible either. It does nothing w/ Sneak Attack though (other than function as a surprise blocker).

[rubblekill]

Sorry if I'm adding literally nothing to the Jund discussion, but I haven't had the time to keep up with the thread and you people are intriguing me and convincing me to build the deck online. Anyway, no love for grave titan? The only reason I don't play him in junk is that he isn't green, but since in jund the "sneak bellower into empath into fuck you, opponent" line is very possible, why don't we play a card that says R: make a 6/6 with haste and 4 2/2s for a total of 14 power from a empty board?
This choice fits into what Navsi said, which I agree with to be honest.

[Navsi]

Sorry if I'm adding literally nothing to the Jund discussion, but I haven't had the time to keep up with the thread and you people are intriguing me and convincing me to build the deck online. Anyway, no love for grave titan? The only reason I don't play him in junk is that he isn't green, but since in jund the "sneak bellower into empath into fuck you, opponent" line is very possible, why don't we play a card that says R: make a 6/6 with haste and 4 2/2s for a total of 14 power from a empty board?
This choice fits into what Navsi said, which I agree with to be honest.

If we have Sneak Attack, we'll never tutor for Titan since we can just get Emrakul instead. If we have him in hand, he's worse than the other options since Bellower is lethal and Inferno Titan has more utility.

If we don't have Sneak Attack, he's okay, but we already have board presence (since Bellower leaves us with spare bodies) from other areas, so we may as well spend our 6-drop slots on creatures with other types of utility.

Basically, Bellower - Empath - Inferno Titan gives us enough bodies that our opponent's only outs are a) Sweeper and b) kill us. In addition we get damage and a fast clock.
Bellower - Empath - Grave Titan gives us even more bodies, but our opponent's outs don't change from a) Sweeper and b) kill us. However we get a slightly slower clock, and no attached removal.

[rubblekill]

Interesting analysis, I guess I'll have to read quite a bit of pages of this thread regarding this build. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

[Navsi]

The card I really want to play in this build is Ink-Eyes. Fetching her up with Bellower/Empath means we can Ninjutsu them back out for Ink-Eyes and get another ETB trigger, which is awesome, and taking your opponent's creatures is absurd against any midrange deck. Unfortunately she's really unreliable and absolute garbage against decks with low creature counts.

If only Silent-Blade Oni didn't have blue in its mana cost, or Throat Slitter / Okiba-Gang Shinobi cost 6 mana rather than 5...

[rubblekill]

Isn't demon of the dark schemes a similar yet somewhat better card than ink-eyes?
They both work only against creature decks, but the massacre effect seems a decent bonus?
Or massacre wurm..mmm now I want to try all this so bad

[Navsi]

Inferno Titan is the better sweeper.

I was more interested in using the ninjutsu to get more triggers out of Bellower and/or Fierce Empath. Ink-Eyes just happens to be the only ninja that costs 6 or more and doesn't require blue mana.

IMO the fatties list is something like this:

Core:
- Emrakul
- Woodland Bellower
- Inferno Titan or Dragonlord Atarka
Sometimes / meta dependent (pick 1-2):
- Wurmcoil Engine
- Distended Mindbender
- Second Woodland Bellower
- Second Inferno Titan / Dragonlord Atarka
- Primeval Titan

That's unless someone can come up with a Godo, Bandit Warlord combo that's good enough, but at the end of the day he dies to Bolt which isn't a good position to be in.

[rubblekill]

Someone suggested worldspine wurm, have you intentionally omitted it in your list (because without SA he is useless and doesn't win on the spot like emrakul)?

[JackaBo]

If you're looking for a Empath target that can win through things that hate on emrakul (say a protected ensnaring bridge) you might consider flayer of the hatebound #dredgetech

[Echelon]

If you're looking for a Empath target that can win through things that hate on emrakul (say a protected ensnaring bridge) you might consider flayer of the hatebound #dredgetech

That's not going to work. Flayer only triggers when a creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard.

[rubblekill]

Nvm, Echelon crushed our wildest dreams

[JackaBo]

That's not going to work. Flayer only triggers when a creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard.

That is true!

[Navsi]

Someone suggested worldspine wurm, have you intentionally omitted it in your list (because without SA he is useless and doesn't win on the spot like emrakul)?

No point playing Worldspine when you could play Emrakul. It's not like the deck plays Natural Order. If you need to finish people off after swinging for 15, and your opponent doesn't have Path, just get Bellower into Emrakul and swing for 21.

Flayer of the Hatebound is pretty good, since he dies to Sneak and Undying's for five, but I don't think he's deadly enough. You'd need to run something else as well. I could see it as a combo with another creature, but at that point you might as well just play Mikaeus the Unhallowed and Triskelion.

- Sneak Bellower, Empath, Mikaeus.
- Respond to bellower trigger in end step by Sneaking Mikaeus.
- Bellower returns from Undying, get Empath, get Triskelion.
- Sneak Triskelion.
- Win.

You're spending two slots on pretty terrible creatures on their own, though, and you need RRR and Sneak Attack up.


If you want to get around Ensnaring Bridge, your best bet is probably a maindeck Reclamation Sage to fetch with Bellower.

[Echelon]

If you want to get around Ensnaring Bridge, your best bet is probably a maindeck Reclamation Sage to fetch with Bellower.

And Abrupt Decay. And Pernicious Deed. And (GSZ into) Eternal Witness w/ any of those. Bridge shouldn't be much of a concern.

[Ulysse95]

Try reading Green Sun's Zenith again and ponder its implications for a second...

Wow! Thanks guys for the support. It's a fact that Echelon can seems a bit like an angry bitch at first read and that you have to read the thread for a bit to know that he's not.
I think is deeply a good hearted one and just wants "to teach" people good reflexes about the deck in the hard way.

But Echelon, I think you was a bit too quick this time. When you read the list, you can see that Bellower took the slot of Grieselbrand. Grieslbrand is not green and I don't think that it's the first reason of removing him from the list. Idem for Emrakul vs worldspine wurm...

Arianrhod was stating:

This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.

I was reacting to the chain with sneak: zenith for empath>bellower>empath>Emrakul. So 4 creature slots, needs 7 mana with at least 1 green and 3 red.
Which can be : zenith for empath>Rune-scared>Emrakul. So 3 creature slots, needs 6 mana, 1 green, two red only.

Rune-scared demon over Grisou was already pointed a few pages ago by someone else. So I was wondering if Arian gave it a try or didn't saw it, or think is a total shit :D

So the true question I should have ask, enlightened by further posts on the thread is more Primeval vs Bellower. Two 6 mana zenitable slots. Two differents plan while tutoring.

Edit: some people would like to add a second bellower, some would like to add a second or third empath. Rune-scared is a bit both in one. So you gain one slot with it.

[Echelon]

Wow! Thanks guys for the support. It's a fact that Echelon can seems a bit like an angry bitch at first read and that you have to read the thread for a bit to know that he's not.
I think is deeply a good hearted one and just wants "to teach" people good reflexes about the deck in the hard way.

But Echelon, I think you was a bit too quick this time. When you read the list, you can see that Bellower took the slot of Grieselbrand. Grieslbrand is not green and I don't think that it's the first reason of removing him from the list. Idem for Emrakul vs worldspine wurm...

...

I was reacting to the chain with sneak: zenith for empath>bellower>empath>Emrakul. So 4 creature slots, needs 7 mana with at least 1 green and 3 red.
Which can be : zenith for empath>Rune-scared>Emrakul. So 3 creature slots, needs 6 mana, 1 green, two red only.

Rune-scared demon over Grisou was already pointed a few pages ago by someone else. So I was wondering if Arian gave it a try or didn't saw it, or think is a total shit :D

So the true question I should have ask, enlightened by further posts on the thread is more Primeval vs Bellower. Two 6 mana zenitable slots. Two differents plan while tutoring.

First off: Thank you for the kind words. Whether your reasoning is right or not (which I'll get to in a bit), my apologies for being a dick.

Secondly: Actually, the line of GSZ for Empath -> Bellower into Empath -> Emrakul also costs 6, w/ 1 green and 2 red. The Bellower trigger immediately dumps Empath #2 on the battlefield, without any extra costs. It just needs that extra Empath to function. That being as it may, your post shows that you've thought about it (which is the response I wanted to trigger). Share your thoughts, explain why you make a certain suggestion (dammit, lol), that's all I'm trying to get people to do. Detailed, well thought out arguments are much better food for thought and discussion than "Howsabout this card?" (and don't sollicit dickery, if anyone's ever noticed that). I guess it's to the Sneak Fit pilots to find out if it's better to have Bellower's added utility (read: it allows you to get a clock and an answer with a single GSZ) or if the one card the Demon saves you during the combo is worth it.

[Navsi]

I was reacting to the chain with sneak: zenith for empath>bellower>empath>Emrakul. So 4 creature slots, needs 7 mana with at least 1 green and 3 red.
Which can be : zenith for empath>Rune-scared>Emrakul. So 3 creature slots, needs 6 mana, 1 green, two red only.

Woodland Bellower puts the creature it fetches straight onto the battlefield, so it uses the same mana as Rune-Scarred Demon does.

IMO Bellower does basically everything RSD does (since it gets you Emrakul, removal or more bodies) except finding Sneak Attack. I don't think searching up Sneak is that relevant when you've already got 7+ mana available. Being Zenithable isn't that important for our big creatures because we have Bellower/Empath to find them instead - if we lose Bellowers for other fatties, the problem of not being Zenithable comes up more again.

[square_two]

Although it doesn't work with Sneak, I'm leaning towards running Distended Mindbender somewhere in the 75. If we make an Empath off of three mana, next turn we can feed the Empath in and cast Mindbender for 2BB, so we curve out perfectly. It doesn't trigger off Sneak (although it's still a 5/5 if we need it), but it does hugely disrupt fast combo which I get the impression remains one of the deck's weaknesses.

I really like the idea of Distended Mindbender. It means that your Empaths are not only combo kill enablers, but they gain the ability to disrupt the opponent in case you don't have a Sneak on the field. T3 Empath T4 Mindbender sounds very viable and could help clinch a win if you have already done some light disruption in turns 1-2 with Therapy.

Since the consensus seems to be leaning towards Bellower in place of Griselbrand, there really isn't a need to try to get to 8 mana for Grisel - that is further argument that Primeval Titan could be removed. Still unsure about Volrath's Stronghold...that is still a very strong land in this deck even without PrimeTime.

[Arianrhod]

Primeval's purpose is to be the best bomb on an empty board state without Sneak. It "draws" 4 cards between cip+swing (and in my experience it frequently gets to swing when it does come down). The only two other bombs that compete with this effect are Griselbrand himself (who costs 8 including an unwieldy as hell BBBB) and Combustible Gearhulk (who may not draw you any cards and opens you to getting blown out by Wear/Tear). I can definitely get behind wishing we had a better option, but for now at least, he's all we've really got to fulfill that role. I'd much rather have a Consecrated Sphinx or something of that ilk, but, c'est le vie.

[Brael]

This could be really bad, but did you consider Tinder Wall? If you already have a threat in hand, Bellower into Tinder Wall makes RR right away for a double sneak activation. It's also good for accelerating into casting a Sneak Attack since you can go
T1 Land, Tinder Wall
T2 Land, Sneak Attack

[Arianrhod]

I really like the idea of Distended Mindbender. It means that your Empaths are not only combo kill enablers, but they gain the ability to disrupt the opponent in case you don't have a Sneak on the field. T3 Empath T4 Mindbender sounds very viable and could help clinch a win if you have already done some light disruption in turns 1-2 with Therapy.

Since the consensus seems to be leaning towards Bellower in place of Griselbrand, there really isn't a need to try to get to 8 mana for Grisel - that is further argument that Primeval Titan could be removed. Still unsure about Volrath's Stronghold...that is still a very strong land in this deck even without PrimeTime.

I don't dislike the idea, but I do think it needs tested. I worry about the BB in the cost since we've moved on to Groves and the mana base has tilted away from black a bit. Mindbender gives Empaths something to do when drawn early in the game // used "fairly."

Volrath's is very good in the deck and if we replace Volraths (independent decision of Primeval, I think we want Volrath's even if we do cut Prime Time), we need to really pay close attention to our Miracles matchup. Volrath's, especially in conjunction with Phyrexian Tower, has been instrumental in beating Miracles in my experience. They just can't deal with it in any reasonably effective manner.

[Arianrhod]

This could be really bad, but did you consider Tinder Wall? If you already have a threat in hand, Bellower into Tinder Wall makes RR right away for a double sneak activation. It's also good for accelerating into casting a Sneak Attack since you can go
T1 Land, Tinder Wall
T2 Land, Sneak Attack

I don't hate it as much as I feel like I probably should, if that's any indication?

I'd put it on the pile of ideas for super combo Sneak version, same with Orcish Lumberjack. I don't think the idea is necessarily bad per se, but I do think that it's not where I, at least, want to be looking.

Edit: I'm almost thinking like this:

4 Vet
4 Lumberjack
2 Tinder Wall
2 Empath
1 E.Wit
1 Bellower
1 Inferno
1 Red Gearhulk
1 Emrakul

4 Sneak
4 Breach

4 Therapy
4 Zenith
4 Living Wish

2 Chandra ToD

22 lands

sb:
1 Emrakul
14 other things for living wish // actual sideboard

[Navsi]

Primeval's purpose is to be the best bomb on an empty board state without Sneak. It "draws" 4 cards between cip+swing (and in my experience it frequently gets to swing when it does come down). The only two other bombs that compete with this effect are Griselbrand himself (who costs 8 including an unwieldy as hell BBBB) and Combustible Gearhulk (who may not draw you any cards and opens you to getting blown out by Wear/Tear). I can definitely get behind wishing we had a better option, but for now at least, he's all we've really got to fulfill that role. I'd much rather have a Consecrated Sphinx or something of that ilk, but, c'est le vie.

I think Bellower fills that slot better. Fetching an Inferno Titan, a Mindbender, another Bellower or an Eternal Witness feels like a perfectly serviceable drop.

If you're facing down an empty board on both sides against something like Miracles, Grixis or BUG, I don't think dropping Bellower is any worse than Primeval Titan. Even if your opponent have answers that work better against Bellower's 5 toughness (Dismember, Gurmag Angler) at the end of the day you can still trade off and still have an Inferno Titan to slam afterwards.

Edit: @Arianrhod - that Sneak/Breach list - If you're going that all-in, Summoner's Pact is probably worth it. Fetching Bellower into lethal is pretty strong.

[Ralf]

Volrath's is very good in the deck and if we replace Volraths (independent decision of Primeval, I think we want Volrath's even if we do cut Prime Time), we need to really pay close attention to our Miracles matchup. Volrath's, especially in conjunction with Phyrexian Tower, has been instrumental in beating Miracles in my experience. They just can't deal with it in any reasonably effective manner.

I was about to make the same statement.
More than 70 % of my wins against Miracles with Sneak Fit were because they could not beat Primeval + Twin.
The other 30 % were because of an early resolved Sneak into a quick Kukul.

Still, the games could be very very long. Especially against Predict Miracle versions.

[Arianrhod]

I think Bellower fills that slot better. Fetching an Inferno Titan, a Mindbender, another Bellower or an Eternal Witness feels like a perfectly serviceable drop.

If you're facing down an empty board on both sides against something like Miracles, Grixis or BUG, I don't think dropping Bellower is any worse than Primeval Titan. Even if your opponent have answers that work better against Bellower's 5 toughness (Dismember, Gurmag Angler) at the end of the day you can still trade off and still have an Inferno Titan to slam afterwards.

Edit: @Arianrhod - that Sneak/Breach list - If you're going that all-in, Summoner's Pact is probably worth it. Fetching Bellower into lethal is pretty strong.

Entirely possible RE@All-in. It's not really my kind of thing at all, but I acknowledge that it has potential and if people who are not me want to work on it, I figured I'd toss out a rough idea of a shell for them.

Bellower into Mindbender does seem like it could be pretty dirty, I agree. My biggest hang-up is, as I mentioned, Miracles. Primeval+Towers has overperformed there by a lot. Mindbender is still going to be fine there, I think, because of being a cast trigger, but I don't think it's nearly as sure of a kill as assembling the Towers is.

I also don't think that hardcasting Emrakul should be overlooked as a plan. I've won three separate games because of hardcasting Emrakul, and Primeval helped that a lot. Yes, three games out of however many isn't actually THAT often, certainly, but it's a tool that I like having in the belt.

[Navsi]

I guess it depends a lot on what Miracles lists you're up against.

Primeval Titan:
+ If you get to untap with Towers, you can grind them to death
+ Trample
- If he gets removed before you untap, he doesn't get much done
- Doesn't present a particularly fast clock
- Resistant to removal / sweepers after first turn

Bellower:
+ Faster potential clock
+ Still finds a second threat even if removed immediately
- Doesn't grind as well (finite resources, no Towers combo for longevity)
- Easy to chump if they make tokens
- Playing out your second threat risks Terminus

The Miracles decks around me seem to be low on Mentors and have quite a lot of Entreats, which leads me to want a fast clock at the expense of grinding power, since a large percentage of the time I can't afford to durdle without hitting 'EOT six angels, kill you' before I can kill them.

[Zirath]

Mindbender would be great in other formats. It can miss in Legacy, especially on turn 3-4 when we would ideally cast it. It also doesn't interact with Sneak Attack at all.

For reference, I greatly dislike Primeval Titan. I am fully aware it allows us to beat Miracles. That being said, there are better options if Miracles wasn't the most played deck. But that's not a thing that can be contested at the moment because of Miracles. As I said before, our creatures need to be the most efficient and highest quality since we have so few creatures to work with. I'm not sure anything else will allow that.

[Navsi]

Mindbender would be great in other formats. It can miss in Legacy, especially on turn 3-4 when we would ideally cast it. It also doesn't interact with Sneak Attack at all.

I think it should be a sideboard option. Against Miracles it'll be a double hit unless they have very few cards in hand, and against Storm and Show and Tell you can reasonably expect to hit twice as well. If you only get one hit, it's not necessarily the end of the world - you spent one card (Empath) and got a Thoughtseize (that exiles) and a 5/5 threat, which is pretty much exactly what you want out of a single card against a combo deck.

[Ulysse95]

Yes, my bad about bellower, I disregarded the fact it put the creature into play


Mindbender would be great in other formats. It can miss in Legacy, especially on turn 3-4 when we would ideally cast it. It also doesn't interact with Sneak Attack at all.

For reference, I greatly dislike Primeval Titan. I am fully aware it allows us to beat Miracles. That being said, there are better options if Miracles wasn't the most played deck. But that's not a thing that can be contested at the moment because of Miracles. As I said before, our creatures need to be the most efficient and highest quality since we have so few creatures to work with. I'm not sure anything else will allow that.

I disagree, with a sneak, he cost BB regardless of which other creature you sneaked previously.

[Zirath]

I disagree, with a sneak, he cost BB regardless of which other creature you sneaked previously.

But is that better than fetching Emrakul or a Titan if you already have Sneak Attack out? Can the cards in hand realistically stop you? At the point where we have Sneak Attack, throwing monsters at our opponent til they die seems more plausible than removing two cards with a 5/5 in play.

If people want to test it and find out if it works, that's a fine plan. My intuition says it's not what we need. Specifically, I feel the card is at its best when we are already winning.

[Navsi]

But is that better than fetching Emrakul or a Titan if you already have Sneak Attack out? Can the cards in hand realistically stop you? At the point where we have Sneak Attack, throwing monsters at our opponent til they die seems more plausible than removing two cards with a 5/5 in play.

If people want to test it and find out if it works, that's a fine plan. My intuition says it's not what we need. Specifically, I feel the card is at its best when we are already winning.

If we already have Sneak, Mindbender isn't relevant because we already probably win the game. Anything else we put in that slot would be the exact same, unless it finds us Emrakul somehow. If we don't have an immediate Emrakul, we can still use Mindbender to turn whatever we have lying around (like a random sneaked Thragtusk or Inferno Titan) into a 5/5 after combat, which is a nice benefit.

If we don't have Sneak, though, it's good to have an Empath target that costs less than six mana, and that interacts with fast combo decks and Miracles.

[Zirath]

If we already have Sneak, Mindbender isn't relevant because we already probably win the game. Anything else we put in that slot would be the exact same, unless it finds us Emrakul somehow. If we don't have an immediate Emrakul, we can still use Mindbender to turn whatever we have lying around (like a random sneaked Thragtusk or Inferno Titan) into a 5/5 after combat, which is a nice benefit.

If we don't have Sneak, though, it's good to have an Empath target that costs less than six mana, and that interacts with fast combo decks and Miracles.

It's only less than 6 if we have Empath in play. If you play Empath and fetch up Mindbender, isn't likely the Empath will be removed asap or the opponent will try to play around it? We need to have 7 mana in a single turn to play out both Empath and Mindbender. By this logic, we should be looking at Gurmag Angler as well, which doesn't interact with combo decks at all, or Mournwhelk, which doesn't require Empath surviving. Granted Mournwhelk is a horrible card, so take that opinion as me being facetious.

Let me ask this another way, what card are you removing to fit Mindbender in from the sideboard?

[Bobmans]

@Kevin, how is Chandra, ToD?

[Arianrhod]

@Kevin, how is Chandra, ToD?

No idea, never touched her. I'm guessing she's good in a world with Tinder Wall and Lumberjack needing something else red and dumb to power out early, though.

[Bobmans]

Lumberjack, lolz...
Well i just ordered 1 Chandra to try (and stick into edh if it fails) but i sooo much wanna play that card. I was lucky to find a Japanese signed copy this soon already after release.

[Brael]

Just played week 2 of my league. Ended up scrubbing out due to some real bad mana screw. Pretty annoying considering my build is made specifically to combat that, but I've been running pretty hot in all formats lately so the opposite is inevitable at some point (and it probably evens out with my 4-0 Modern finish tonight).

Anyways, I hit Monastery Mentor in every game, and in some I even had enough mana to play it. What I figured out is that while the cost says 2W it's not actually a 3 drop for the purposes of your curve. It's better to treat it as a 5, or atleast a 4. Tracker suffers from this too in order to get value, but to a lesser extent. I still like the Mentor/Top combo but I think I need more mana sources to make it work. It's clunky enough that it requires a lot of mana. I think in SB games where I plan to use it all my mana dorks will be coming in from now on.

Mentor is by far the fastest clock in my list, faster than Sigarda even. It's almost always a 1 or 2 turn clock, it's just a little more of a build around than I initially thought. It's the same clock speed as Grave Titan but only needs half as much mana on board.

[Echelon]

If we already have Sneak, Mindbender isn't relevant because we already probably win the game. Anything else we put in that slot would be the exact same, unless it finds us Emrakul somehow. If we don't have an immediate Emrakul, we can still use Mindbender to turn whatever we have lying around (like a random sneaked Thragtusk or Inferno Titan) into a 5/5 after combat, which is a nice benefit.

If we don't have Sneak, though, it's good to have an Empath target that costs less than six mana, and that interacts with fast combo decks and Miracles.

Except Miracles fucks with you via the top of their library, so it doesn't quite help there. As for fast combo decks - you're dead by the time you might be able to pull it off. It's basically taking a tank to a dragstrip to race vs. a funnycar. In that case you're even lucky if you manage to GSZ for a Gaddock Teeg (if you were to run one ofcourse), let alone first GSZ for Empath, then feed Empath to Mindbender (which means you won't be interacting with a Storm pilot for a turn around turn 3/4. Do you really want to try and dodge that bullet?).

Seems like a very bad plan.

[Navsi]

Except Miracles fucks with you via the top of their library, so it doesn't quite help there. As for fast combo decks - you're dead by the time you might be able to pull it off. It's basically taking a tank to a dragstrip to race vs. a funnycar. In that case you're even lucky if you manage to GSZ for a Gaddock Teeg (if you were to run one ofcourse), let alone first GSZ for Empath, then feed Empath to Mindbender (which means you won't be interacting with a Storm pilot for a turn around turn 3/4. Do you really want to try and dodge that bullet?).

Seems like a very bad plan.

Teeg is irrelevant, since we're in Jund so we can't play him. If we could, Mindbender would be less interesting.

As is, the point I'm making is that against a combo deck, Empaths and Zeniths are pretty dead. The only thing we can really do with them is apply pressure, and even there the clock isn't particularly fast (especially in this version, where our threats are expensive). By adding Mindbender, we have a secondary threat to use which both applies pressure and actually interacts. I'm not saying we should replace one of our primary disruption cards (Thoughtseize, Slaughter Games, Surgical) but a slot which upgrades Zenith/Empath from "garbage" to "slow but powerful" in multiple matchups is probably not as terrible a choice as you're implying. I've found that a lot of the time, we play early disruption against combo decks which prevents them from going off quickly, but then our threats aren't fast enough and they rebuild their hand into going off again around turn five while we make dorky green monsters.

Against Miracles, just because they can play in topdeck mode doesn't mean they want to. They have very few actual CA tools which means they often can't answer more than a single threat each turn in topdeck mode.
- If they are topdecking, we can always just fetch a different threat with empath.
- If we happen to draw it in that situation, we get a 5/5 which can't be Counterbalanced, which is not great but as a worst-case scenario it's still a threat they have to spend a card to answer.
- If we fetch it with Empath and they kill him before we can Emerge, that's great. They've spent a whole removal spell on a Fierce Empath, and we can still just hardcast Mindbender in a couple turns' time, or feed a different creature to it if needed. They've still 2-for-1ed themselves, and the card we've gained is a 3-for-1 when we cast it.

[Echelon]

Teeg in relation to speed is plenty relevant, which is what the post was about. If GSZ > Teeg, in the builds where it's played, is too slow, how can GSZ > Empath, Mindbender be considered fast enough? Empath costs 1 more and after that you also have to cast the Mindbender.

I get your point about "well, if we finally do get there", but you're playing a build that drops Emrakul for funsies. Replace Mindbender w/ a Diabolic Intent and just grab Sneak attack w/ that.

[Navsi]

Teeg in relation to speed is plenty relevant, which is what the post was about. If GSZ > Teeg, in the builds where it's played, is too slow, how can GSZ > Empath, Mindbender be considered fast enough? Empath costs 1 more and after that you also have to cast the Mindbender.

I get your point about "well, if we finally do get there", but you're playing a build that drops Emrakul for funsies. Replace Mindbender w/ a Diabolic Intent and just grab Sneak attack w/ that.

I don't think Zenith - Teeg is too slow, generally. It's not good enough as a primary game plan, but it's just fine as a followup after your initial disruption. The problem with Teeg, though, is that if they draw an answer before they die (which takes a while because he's a 2/2) then his disruption stops. If they draw an answer to Mindbender, that stops the bleeding but doesn't actually get back the cards he exiles.

Intent is not what we want. It doesn't do shit without another creature on the board and a combo piece in hand already. The best case scenario is Empath - Emrakul - Intent Empath - Sneak Attack, right? Well, that takes up two turns of doing nothing, since we won't have the mana to cast Intent and Sneak in the same turn early in a game. If you think we won't live long enough to resolve Mindbender, how on earth do you expect to survive waiting another turn on top of that to make Emrakul? He kills them when he comes in, yes, but Mindbender already puts them in a position they are unlikely to be able to recover from and gives them a four turn clock.

Mindbender turns Zenith/Empath into a one card threat+disruption. That's really a big deal in a deck which otherwise needs two or more cards to get anything threatening done beyond just making a couple big green creatures.

[Echelon]

Mindbender turns Zenith/Empath into a one card threat+disruption. That's really a big deal in a deck which otherwise needs two or more cards to get anything threatening done beyond just making a couple big green creatures.

Still doesn't take away you don't interact w/ your Storm opponent when their fundamental turn is coming up...

If you happen to survive, sure, you're in a good place. Odds are you'll be dead though. That's the choice you make.

[Navsi]

Still doesn't take away you don't interact w/ your Storm opponent when their fundamental turn is coming up...

If you happen to survive, sure, you're in a good place. Odds are you'll be dead though. That's the choice you make.

The point I'm making is that you don't have any choice there. Fetching Mindbender with Empath/Zenith is relevant because if you aren't playing Mindbender, you don't have any other relevant targets that do something before next turn. It upgrades those cards from "do nothing" to "next turn, do something very relevant"- not as good as "do something relevant this turn" but we take what we can get. If there's a target you can fetch up with Green Sun's Zenith and Fierce Empath that disrupts a combo player on that turn, go ahead and let me know, but as far as I'm aware there's no options there, unless you want to splash white in your heavy three-colour deck which plays Grove and six basics so you can play Teeg, who also turns off your primary wincon and also doesn't make Empath relevant, only GSZ.

[square_two]

Regarding tech against combo decks, has anyone had any success with Lost Legacy? Think it was mentioned when it was previewed for Kaladesh. Even in our decks that have access to red for Slaughter Games, it does come down a full turn sooner. I imagine very less optimal against Miracles due to being able to be countered.

Edit: Shoot, I think I missed some talk about it a few pages back. I'll go re-read.

[Navsi]

Regarding tech against combo decks, has anyone had any success with Lost Legacy? Think it was mentioned when it was previewed for Kaladesh. Even in our decks that have access to red for Slaughter Games, it does come down a full turn sooner. I imagine very less optimal against Miracles due to being able to be countered.

Edit: Shoot, I think I missed some talk about it a few pages back. I'll go re-read.

To put it simply:

If you're not in red, you can now play Lost Legacy rather than splashing, which is nice.
If you're in red, Slaughter Games is probably better. Being uncounterable is a big deal.
Discard and Extraction effects are still strong competition for the same sideboard slots.

[Zirath]

The point I'm making is that you don't have any choice there. Fetching Mindbender with Empath/Zenith is relevant because if you aren't playing Mindbender, you don't have any other relevant targets that do something before next turn. It upgrades those cards from "do nothing" to "next turn, do something very relevant"- not as good as "do something relevant this turn" but we take what we can get.

This has fallen heavily into the realm of theorycraft. You have to actually play with the card and prove it's good at this point. Most of these situations are close to idealized.

The idea that it's a clock isn't really true. It's only a 5/5. Against Miracles and almost any combo deck, their life total only matters when they would die. We have no additional reach to end the game.

[Ganfar]

To put it simply:

If you're not in red, you can now play Lost Legacy rather than splashing, which is nice.
If you're in red, Slaughter Games is probably better. Being uncounterable is a big deal.
Discard and Extraction effects are still strong competition for the same sideboard slots.

You sidebord in Lost Legacy or Slaughter Games aginst combo. Then I would rather cast it a turn eariler then have uncounterable for one more mana.

[Navsi]

You sidebord in Lost Legacy or Slaughter Games aginst combo. Then I would rather cast it a turn eariler then have uncounterable for one more mana.

Well yes, that's the point.

However, with regards to the 3 vs 4 mana difference, we have a lot of hands which provide us with 4+ mana on turn three. However we only have a small number of hands which provide us with 3+ mana on turn two:

- Vet + Therapy
- Vet + Tower
- DRS

Vet + Therapy is the most common of these - however it's also the one where being able to cast Lost Legacy matters least. We've already Therapied the opponent twice - they are not going to untap and kill us immediately. Waiting a turn to SG instead isn't actually an issue.

Vet + Tower is uncommon, and we could cast SG anyway.

DRS is often a 1-of. If you're playing a list with lots of copies of DRS, LL gets better in comparison to SG. I'm gonna assume you aren't, though, since most people aren't.
If you're Zenithing for any of these components, you don't have the mana to LL on turn two anyway, so you might as well have Slaughter Games on turn 3.

In exchange, we get:
- Can't be countered, which means it's actually good against Miracles
- Targets opponents rather than players, if anyone still plays Misdirection
- Easier on the manabase if we're red- a lot of Jund builds play Grove, which means they're light on black sources

[Echelon]

You're missing a few openers that give you 3 mana @ turn 2.

Fetch Bayou, GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, T2 drop another black source, is one. T1 Dryad Arbor, T2 Phyrexian Tower (however horrible and incredibly rare this line may be) is another.

And this, by the way, is why you should run plenty of ramp stuff - it helps you improve a bad MU (while doing a ton of other stuff for you, but that's not relevant now). It gives you a better chance to have the opening you need to power out your powerful hatecards against them.

[Navsi]

You're missing a few openers that give you 3 mana @ turn 2.

Fetch Bayou, GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, T2 drop another black source, is one. T1 Dryad Arbor, T2 Phyrexian Tower (however horrible and incredibly rare this line may be) is another.

And this, by the way, is why you should run plenty of ramp stuff - it helps you improve a bad MU (while doing a ton of other stuff for you, but that's not relevant now). It gives you a better chance to have the opening you need to power out your powerful hatecards against them.

This is true. I pretty much never run Arbor, so I didn't add it in.

Then again Arbor is rarely in red lists, so Arbor lists want LL anyway and don't need more incentive to take it over SG.

[Echelon]

This is true. I pretty much never run Arbor, so I didn't add it in.

Then again Arbor is rarely in red lists, so Arbor lists want LL anyway and don't need more incentive to take it over SG.

So your big point is "Yes, well, Jund Fit lists normally don't run Arbor so we should just stick with the more expensive card"?

Shouldn't it be "Yes, maybe we should run Dryad Arbor, b/c it can either allow us to play a faster card which is rather important in one of our worst MUs or at least increases the number of lines we have to reach 4 mana on turn 3 so we might be able to power out that more expensive card in time more often"?

I might be an idiot for thinking that improving a bad MU by even the slightest bit is a good thing though.

[Brael]

Red is mainly used for Sneak Attack. Is there an argument to instead use blue for Show and Tell? At which point you would want Lost Legacy. Though at that point I think you just become a worse Sneak and Show.

[Navsi]

So your big point is "Yes, well, Jund Fit lists normally don't run Arbor so we should just stick with the more expensive card"?

Shouldn't it be "Yes, maybe we should run Dryad Arbor, b/c it can either allow us to play a faster card which is rather important in one of our worst MUs or at least increases the number of lines we have to reach 4 mana on turn 3 so we might be able to power out that more expensive card in time more often"?

I might be an idiot for thinking that improving a bad MU by even the slightest bit is a good thing though.

I'm sure this has been discussed before in the thread. Jund doesn't run Stoneforge which makes Arbor a lot less relevant. The Sneak Attack deck is already a combo list, which means we have a lot of possible dead draws in the deck (Emrakul without Sneak, redundant Sneaks, etc). Adding in more cards we never want to draw isn't great.

We're already better off against other combo decks than most Nic Fit lists because we have a faster clock. We already get better use out of Zenith than other Nic Fit lists because in this deck it's a combo piece, so we would be willing to use it for Arbor less.

The list also plays Groves which means double black is harder for the deck to make than BR by quite a margin. This also means we're lower on fetch lands, which makes us less likely to be able to fetch up Arbor in the few situations where it's relevant.

Miracles is not a match up we're happy to ignore, and swapping LL in means we have less viable sideboard cards for that matchup. Arbor itself is okay against Miracles only if you have a way of making it actually threatening, like equipment or pump effects, which we don't have, so it's not gonna do much.

The deck is also already quite full of slots we want in there - 4 fatties, 7 removal, 6 ramp, 4 zenith, 4 therapy, 2 Empath, Witness, Thrag, 3 top, 4 Sneaks leaves us with just 3 more flex slots, and if one of those is Arbor the others probably have to be payoff cards like Diabolic Intent and Meren. I don't think a list like that is any better off than a build running other less situational cards in that slot, particularly against Miracles.

[square_two]

So I've had a couple of Sneak Fit god hands this evening and they have lifted my spirits from a couple of bad Miracles punts. Really wish I had some more people around me to practice that matchup in person.

Phyrexian Tower + fetch + Veteran Explorer + Sneak Attack...
Burn player not expecting to face hasty Emrakul on turn 2 :laugh:

[Zirath]

I might be an idiot for thinking that improving a bad MU by even the slightest bit is a good thing though.

You cause another match up to become worse by doing that. You can't look at only one side of the problem. Dryad Arbor isn't played in the combo-oriented lists because it exposes us to Delver. We aren't Maverick. We don't get free mana from our creatures without paying a cost. Playing a land that allows other decks to interact with our mana directly impacts our fair match ups, which are supposed to be favorable. Sneak Fit isn't a midrange deck; it's a ramp deck. There have been Jund Fit lists that have played Dryad Arbor. They aren't combo decks.

[Echelon]

I'm sure this has been discussed before in the thread. Jund doesn't run Stoneforge which makes Arbor a lot less relevant. The Sneak Attack deck is already a combo list, which means we have a lot of possible dead draws in the deck (Emrakul without Sneak, redundant Sneaks, etc). Adding in more cards we never want to draw isn't great.

We're already better off against other combo decks than most Nic Fit lists because we have a faster clock. We already get better use out of Zenith than other Nic Fit lists because in this deck it's a combo piece, so we would be willing to use it for Arbor less.

The list also plays Groves which means double black is harder for the deck to make than BR by quite a margin. This also means we're lower on fetch lands, which makes us less likely to be able to fetch up Arbor in the few situations where it's relevant.

Miracles is not a match up we're happy to ignore, and swapping LL in means we have less viable sideboard cards for that matchup. Arbor itself is okay against Miracles only if you have a way of making it actually threatening, like equipment or pump effects, which we don't have, so it's not gonna do much.

The deck is also already quite full of slots we want in there - 4 fatties, 7 removal, 6 ramp, 4 zenith, 4 therapy, 2 Empath, Witness, Thrag, 3 top, 4 Sneaks leaves us with just 3 more flex slots, and if one of those is Arbor the others probably have to be payoff cards like Diabolic Intent and Meren. I don't think a list like that is any better off than a build running other less situational cards in that slot, particularly against Miracles.

You know I've been running a skeleton similar to the Sneak Fit list for over a decade, right? It didn't run SFM in any of its iterations (and neither does my Junk list, by the way) so that isn't really an argument. Yes, it might call for a Diabolic Intent, but how bad is Diabolic Intent in a deck where you try to pair up 2 cards..? Seriously. The only valid point you have is that of the manabase, which is as true as can be.


You cause another match up to become worse by doing that. You can't look at only one side of the problem. Dryad Arbor isn't played in the combo-oriented lists because it exposes us to Delver. We aren't Maverick. We don't get free mana from our creatures without paying a cost. Playing a land that allows other decks to interact with our mana directly impacts our fair match ups, which are supposed to be favorable. Sneak Fit isn't a midrange deck; it's a ramp deck. There have been Jund Fit lists that have played Dryad Arbor. They aren't combo decks.

Vs. Delver Dryad Arbor gets Bolted/Wastelanded, meaning they have one less card to mess with the stuff you actually care about. That, in your eyes, is making the MU worse..? You do know that 4 spotremoval + 4 Wasteland is usually all they have to mess with us, right..? Having them give up one of those for a Dryad Arbor isn't that horrible. If they don't, all your followup spells either have Daze-proof (blanking 4 more of their cards) or can be powered out a turn earlier. Which is something else they have trouble dealing with. But yeah, that's probably not very helpful in that particular MU. Well, alrighty then.

Let me guess, you also consider Dryad Arbor to be a land, especially when you see it in your opening 7, and you don't like running too many DRS b/c they die to our own Pernicious Deed..? (I'm just trying to understand your mindset here)

[Navsi]

You know I've been running a skeleton similar to the Sneak Fit list for over a decade, right? It didn't run SFM in any of its iterations (and neither does my Junk list, by the way) so that isn't really an argument. Yes, it might call for a Diabolic Intent, but how bad is Diabolic Intent in a deck where you try to pair up 2 cards..? Seriously. The only valid point you have is that of the manabase, which is as true as can be.

So what do you play beyond 1-2 Intent that makes Arbor any good? You have to be playing something to make it amazing (like Pod) to make up for the awful topdecks Intent and Arbor are most of the time.

I'm not happy with making Miracles better against the deck for the sake of our combo matchups. Sneak already has some of the better combo matchups compared to other Nic Fit builds, there's no point trying to skew harder against them at the expense of others.

[Echelon]

So what do you play beyond 1-2 Intent that makes Arbor any good? You have to be playing something to make it amazing (like Pod) to make up for the awful topdecks Intent and Arbor are most of the time.

No you don't. All you need are Intent and Arbor, that's enough. GSZ into Arbor allows you to power out Sneak Attack a turn early (or through Daze), fetch Arbor into Intent gets you either the Sneak Attack or the fattie you need to assemble your plan. Do you know why it's viable? B/c it helps you execute the crazy strong plan of Sneak Attack into Emrakul. That plan lets you get away with a lot of stuff you otherwise wouldn't be able to pull off.

[Navsi]

No you don't. All you need are Intent and Arbor, that's enough. GSZ into Arbor allows you to power out Sneak Attack a turn early (or through Daze), fetch Arbor into Intent gets you either the Sneak Attack or the fattie you need to assemble your plan. Do you know why it's viable? B/c it helps you execute the crazy strong plan of Sneak Attack into Emrakul. That plan lets you get away with a lot of stuff you otherwise wouldn't be able to pull off.

Zenithing Deathrite does the same thing, since you weren't casting Sneak on turn two anyway, and doesn't give you a completely dead topdeck in your deck.

I don't think the ability to Intent for a combo piece is worth the amount the cards otherwise weaken the deck. We aren't 100% all-in on the combo (without Sneak we can still just cast Titans till our opponent loses) and we already run five sources of Sneak and ten sources of Emrakul.

Fetchland - Arbor into Intent costs enough mana that we're not going to be able to play Sneak + activate that turn. It also costs us a land drop, meaning we need to have made six mana sources before we go off with sneak+activate since we sacrificed one of them. If we're going to six mana sources, last turn we had 5, so Sidisi would have done the same thing, without providing card disadvantage and while way more relevant without the other half of the combo, giving us a lot less dead draws.

[jbone2016]

so....2-5 with sneaky.
Some of due to rust, some of due to deck construction.


List
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 O. Baloth (should have been a DRS)
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Worldspine Wurm

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
2 Slaughter Games
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blood Moon

Round 1: Dredge
Game 1: Study, into many dredge and brings the beats (didn't see the sneaks, but did see the Groves)
Game 2: He kept a triple firestorm hand with no dredgers and promptly dies to some hasty stuff.
Game 3: Some back and forth. I mistap while spinning a top while I have a deluge in my hand vs about 8 power and 1 bridges, then draw from top to surgical his bridges when I plan to sneak in bellower/emrakul (both in hand). play top, spin top (because I'm dumb, sneak attack was on top), play fetch and crack fetch for my 3rd red source of the game and he claims my sneak. :( That cost me.

Round 2: Maverick
Game 1: Oh boy. Grave Titan, Worldspine and even Meren did work here. His knight got huge....with a batterskull and a sword of fire and ice on it. I kept chumping with tokens, getting some counters for meren and buying time. Punishing fire picked off some small creatures when I had a chance. Finally found a decay and then a deed. He survived 3 emrakul hits.....but I got him to 0 from at least 150.....just ugh.

Round 3: Omni-Tell
Game 1: I still basic island and then volcanic with only a (ponder or brainstorm), so I figure a sneak/show deck (which is fine since I have a sneak in my hand). I miss a library trigger (after top at the end of turn), which had a STE and maybe a fattie on top. I try to blind therapy him but he forces. He decides to s & T, I spin top and leave the fattie on top. He drops Omni, I drop sneak. Sadly he has the emrakul (sadly, I only had 6 permanents in play) He would have been dead on my next turn.
Game 2: He keeps a no color land hand, and I keep surgical, TS, Therapy, Sneak, Tusk, Land, Land. I take the force which leave him with a cunning wish, intuition?, 2 sol lands and a griselbrand and a sneak. He bricks on lands for a couple of turns while I therapy he griselbrand and surgical his forces to make sure my sneak resolves. I go the sneak tusk route which gets him to 10 but I can't draw another fattie before he kills me.

Round 4: BUG Delver
Game 1: I get hymn'd, drs and delver and scoop before another hymn reveal my sneaks.
Game 2: Pretty much like game 1 but fires get surgical'd.

Round 5: Aggro Loam
Game 1: I bring the fatties to his face after turn 1 chalice on from him.
Game 2: Chalice on one again and I totally forget about the dark depths combo.
Game 3: Very Grindy. I kill his stuff after getting stuck on lands for a while and him having wastelanded me a bit. He keeps loam for the combo, while I hopefully draw my blood moons. He wins the race

Round 6: MUD
Game 1: He landed a bridge while trying build his board. Landed a sneak, decay the bridge and ran him over.
Game 2: Turn one revoker on deed, turn 2 trinisphere. I bait out a wasteland on my grove to play my witness getting back a fetch and then landing blood moon while he only has 2 lands and I have 3. Sneak comes into play and just a matter before the wurms show up.

Round 7: Burn
Game 1: Turn one Guide....yep, figures it would end this way. Almost won, however. She is at 16, when I sneak in Emrakul (over a thragtusk) when I was at 6? (and I knew she had a price in hand because I got 2 revels on the flashback), she has 7 permanants, one of which is a fetchland. She keeps the guide over the great revel and I brick with a sneak in play (and 6 lands in my hand)
Game 2: Nothing really special here. I just get roasted

My thoughts on the build. Me dumb for no DRS in main. Sidsi never happened. Meren was meh despite the one match. Griselbrand was activated like once all day. Never played inferno. Grave, wurm and bellower were all awesome.
Fires were meh. Almost want the 3rd decay back. Also want more card draw between a 3rd top, painful truths and maybe a vulturous aven (4 mana 2/2, exploit draw 2)

Board: There was a bit of D & T, so I feel the dread of night was correct. The blood moons were fine along with the 2 thoughtseize but most everything else was meh.

I keep thinking about other 2/3 mana creatures we could get......spike feeder/finks (for burn), loaming shaman for dredge, Carven Caryatid (2/5 wall, draw a card) or good ol' Wood Elves.

[Echelon]

Zenithing Deathrite does the same thing, since you weren't casting Sneak on turn two anyway, and doesn't give you a completely dead topdeck in your deck.

I don't think the ability to Intent for a combo piece is worth the amount the cards otherwise weaken the deck. We aren't 100% all-in on the combo (without Sneak we can still just cast Titans till our opponent loses) and we already run five sources of Sneak and ten sources of Emrakul.

Fetchland - Arbor into Intent costs enough mana that we're not going to be able to play Sneak + activate that turn. It also costs us a land drop, meaning we need to have made six mana sources before we go off with sneak+activate since we sacrificed one of them. If we're going to six mana sources, last turn we had 5, so Sidisi would have done the same thing, without providing card disadvantage and while way more relevant without the other half of the combo, giving us a lot less dead draws.

How is having an alternative for GSZ into DRS (which you can cast through Daze w/ the same amount of mana as you need to GSZ for DRS) a problem..? "Oh no, I just managed to drop a manadork through your Daze. Dammit!"

Yes, pulling off Emrakul to the face more consistently or a turn faster isn't a high enough payoff. Emrakul to the face sucks.

Concerning fetchland into Arbor - Who ever said you wanted to do it all in 1 turn..? Lol. When you're looking to combo out, you have to plan several turns ahead. Getting all your ducks in a row is one of the things you need to do before even attempting to combo off. Who cares fetch into Arbor takes up one of your land drops..? How is that relevant? You might want to look at when you attempt to pull off fetch for Arbor... It sure as shit isn't on T3. The same goes for Sneak Attack - you don't just slam that down as soon as you hit 4 mana and pray to Arianrhod it'll all work out. You poke your opponents defenses and only when you find a hole you can squeeze through, you go for it. If you can't, you sit and bide your time.

[Navsi]

How is having an alternative for GSZ into DRS (which you can cast through Daze w/ the same amount of mana as you need to GSZ for DRS) a problem..? "Oh no, I just managed to drop a manadork through your Daze. Dammit!"

If you want to ramp into a fast Sneak, Zenithing a DRS is just as fast as Zenithing an Arbor. Let's be honest, against Daze decks you aren't doing either of these things, because Vet is the better choice than either option and you're more interested in stabilizing than trying to combo off quickly and getting blown out by Force.


Yes, pulling off Emrakul to the face more consistently or a turn faster isn't a high enough payoff. Emrakul to the face sucks.

Arbor doesn't speed up the combo any more than the other options, and our Zeniths are already important because they're combo pieces themselves.
If our current rate of Combo / Grind / Fizzle is 60%/35%/5%, I don't think going to 62%/30%/8% (for example) is necessarily an improvement. You're increasing the combo-out rate, but you're also increasing the fizzle rate by introducing more dead draws. I'd rather have a consistent deck that occasionally has to finish a game by beating down with 6-drops than a deck that makes Emrakul a little more frequently, but also loses to itself more.


Concerning fetchland into Arbor - Who ever said you wanted to do it all in 1 turn..? Lol. When you're looking to combo out, you have to plan several turns ahead. Getting all your ducks in a row is one of the things you need to do before even attempting to combo off. Who cares fetch into Arbor takes up one of your land drops..? How is that relevant? You might want to look at when you attempt to pull off fetch for Arbor... It sure as shit isn't on T3. The same goes for Sneak Attack - you don't just slam that down as soon as you hit 4 mana and pray to Arianrhod it'll all work out. You poke your opponents defenses and only when you find a hole you can squeeze through, you go for it.

Sure, okay. If you're doing it lategame and not worried about the mana - why not just play Sidisi? Does the same thing, but only costs you one card rather than two and doesn't make your lategame topdecks horrible.

[Echelon]

If you want to ramp into a fast Sneak, Zenithing a DRS is just as fast as Zenithing an Arbor. Let's be honest, against Daze decks you aren't doing either of these things, because Vet is the better choice than either option and you're more interested in stabilizing than trying to combo off quickly and getting blown out by Force.

Arbor doesn't speed up the combo any more than the other options, and our Zeniths are already important because they're combo pieces themselves.
If our current rate of Combo / Grind / Fizzle is 60%/35%/5%, I don't think going to 62%/30%/8% (for example) is necessarily an improvement. You're increasing the combo-out rate, but you're also increasing the fizzle rate by introducing more dead draws. I'd rather have a consistent deck that occasionally has to finish a game by beating down with 6-drops than a deck that makes Emrakul a little more frequently, but also loses to itself more.

Sure, okay. If you're doing it lategame and not worried about the mana - why not just play Sidisi? Does the same thing, but only costs you one card rather than two and doesn't make your lategame topdecks horrible.

Actually, when I know my opponent is running Daze, Stifle and Wasteland I'll sure as shit GSZ for Arbor before attempting to resolve and trigger a Veteran Explorer. You need to make it as difficult as you can for your opponent to lock you out of your mana. It can be the difference between life and death.

Your second point is more than fair. To each their own!

And for your third point - your opponents aren't sure of what you're doing. Sidisi, as a big, 5 mana creature, signals "I'm going to mess you up, you should respond to this", fetching an Arbor and feeding it to Intent says "This might be dangerous, but I'm 2-for-1-ing myself. What do I know?". And lategame it might just leave you with enough mana to drop the hate card you Intented for rather than having to wait a turn. I've won several games vs. dredge that I had no business of winning by feeding my DRS to a Diabolic Intent and dropping Rest In Peace the same turn, lol. Couldn't have done that with Sidisi.

[Navsi]

Actually, when I know my opponent is running Daze, Stifle and Wasteland I'll sure as shit GSZ for Arbor before attempting to resolve and trigger a Veteran Explorer. You need to make it as difficult as you can for your opponent to lock you out of your mana. It can be the difference between life and death.

And for your third point - your opponents aren't sure of what you're doing. Sidisi, as a big, 5 mana creature, signals "I'm going to mess you up, you should respond to this", fetching an Arbor and feeding it to Intent says "This might be dangerous, but I'm 2-for-1-ing myself. What do I know?". And lategame it might just leave you with enough mana to drop the hate card you Intented for rather than having to wait a turn. I've won several games vs. dredge that I had no business of winning by feeding my DRS to a Diabolic Intent and dropping Rest In Peace the same turn, lol. Couldn't have done that with Sidisi.

Against Daze, if you have multiple mana cards in hand (Vets, Zeniths) then playing around Daze is naturally pretty good - I'd rather make a Vet and Zenith for another one personally.

Interestingly I'd see it as the other way round. Intent, to me, says 'I'm willing to 2-for-1 myself to get this card, so it's going to be absolutely amazing' where Sidisi only cost one card so it's slightly less huge - you just know it's better than a 4/6 with Deathtouch.

Intent is probably more relevant if you're playing powerful hate effects though - I could see it being more useful if you're playing 'end the game if I resolve' spells like Blood Moon. I was running a more traditional sideboard with Needles/GCharms/Extractions/Thoughtseize/Slaughter.

[Echelon]

Interestingly I'd see it as the other way round. Intent, to me, says 'I'm willing to 2-for-1 myself to get this card, so it's going to be absolutely amazing' where Sidisi only cost one card so it's slightly less huge - you just know it's better than a 4/6 with Deathtouch.

Intent is probably more relevant if you're playing powerful hate effects though - I could see it being more useful if you're playing 'end the game if I resolve' spells like Blood Moon. I was running a more traditional sideboard with Needles/GCharms/Extractions/Thoughtseize/Slaughter.

That's because you know what you're up to :wink:. Not every opponent is that knowledgable.

I guess Intent might be some food for thought then? Blood Moon, Boil, Ruination (or From the Ashes).

[Navsi]

That's because you know what you're up to :wink:. Not every opponent is that knowledgable.

I guess Intent might be some food for thought then? Blood Moon, Boil, Ruination (or From the Ashes).

It's definitely more useful there, but I don't think it's worth the slots. Especially since your opponents will be bringing in Enchantment hate / Hydroblast for Sneak Attack already. Not gonna judge if someone wants to give it a try, but I'm still of the opinion the consistency hit isn't worth it.

[Arianrhod]

so....2-5 with sneaky.
Some of due to rust, some of due to deck construction.


List
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 O. Baloth (should have been a DRS)
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Worldspine Wurm

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
2 Slaughter Games
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blood Moon

Round 1: Dredge
Game 1: Study, into many dredge and brings the beats (didn't see the sneaks, but did see the Groves)
Game 2: He kept a triple firestorm hand with no dredgers and promptly dies to some hasty stuff.
Game 3: Some back and forth. I mistap while spinning a top while I have a deluge in my hand vs about 8 power and 1 bridges, then draw from top to surgical his bridges when I plan to sneak in bellower/emrakul (both in hand). play top, spin top (because I'm dumb, sneak attack was on top), play fetch and crack fetch for my 3rd red source of the game and he claims my sneak. :( That cost me.

Round 2: Maverick
Game 1: Oh boy. Grave Titan, Worldspine and even Meren did work here. His knight got huge....with a batterskull and a sword of fire and ice on it. I kept chumping with tokens, getting some counters for meren and buying time. Punishing fire picked off some small creatures when I had a chance. Finally found a decay and then a deed. He survived 3 emrakul hits.....but I got him to 0 from at least 150.....just ugh.

Round 3: Omni-Tell
Game 1: I still basic island and then volcanic with only a (ponder or brainstorm), so I figure a sneak/show deck (which is fine since I have a sneak in my hand). I miss a library trigger (after top at the end of turn), which had a STE and maybe a fattie on top. I try to blind therapy him but he forces. He decides to s & T, I spin top and leave the fattie on top. He drops Omni, I drop sneak. Sadly he has the emrakul (sadly, I only had 6 permanents in play) He would have been dead on my next turn.
Game 2: He keeps a no color land hand, and I keep surgical, TS, Therapy, Sneak, Tusk, Land, Land. I take the force which leave him with a cunning wish, intuition?, 2 sol lands and a griselbrand and a sneak. He bricks on lands for a couple of turns while I therapy he griselbrand and surgical his forces to make sure my sneak resolves. I go the sneak tusk route which gets him to 10 but I can't draw another fattie before he kills me.

Round 4: BUG Delver
Game 1: I get hymn'd, drs and delver and scoop before another hymn reveal my sneaks.
Game 2: Pretty much like game 1 but fires get surgical'd.

Round 5: Aggro Loam
Game 1: I bring the fatties to his face after turn 1 chalice on from him.
Game 2: Chalice on one again and I totally forget about the dark depths combo.
Game 3: Very Grindy. I kill his stuff after getting stuck on lands for a while and him having wastelanded me a bit. He keeps loam for the combo, while I hopefully draw my blood moons. He wins the race

Round 6: MUD
Game 1: He landed a bridge while trying build his board. Landed a sneak, decay the bridge and ran him over.
Game 2: Turn one revoker on deed, turn 2 trinisphere. I bait out a wasteland on my grove to play my witness getting back a fetch and then landing blood moon while he only has 2 lands and I have 3. Sneak comes into play and just a matter before the wurms show up.

Round 7: Burn
Game 1: Turn one Guide....yep, figures it would end this way. Almost won, however. She is at 16, when I sneak in Emrakul (over a thragtusk) when I was at 6? (and I knew she had a price in hand because I got 2 revels on the flashback), she has 7 permanants, one of which is a fetchland. She keeps the guide over the great revel and I brick with a sneak in play (and 6 lands in my hand)
Game 2: Nothing really special here. I just get roasted

My thoughts on the build. Me dumb for no DRS in main. Sidsi never happened. Meren was meh despite the one match. Griselbrand was activated like once all day. Never played inferno. Grave, wurm and bellower were all awesome.
Fires were meh. Almost want the 3rd decay back. Also want more card draw between a 3rd top, painful truths and maybe a vulturous aven (4 mana 2/2, exploit draw 2)

Board: There was a bit of D & T, so I feel the dread of night was correct. The blood moons were fine along with the 2 thoughtseize but most everything else was meh.

I keep thinking about other 2/3 mana creatures we could get......spike feeder/finks (for burn), loaming shaman for dredge, Carven Caryatid (2/5 wall, draw a card) or good ol' Wood Elves.

Sorry to hear that. The dredge loss is probably the backbreaker there, since it pushed you into the random bracket. Sneak is certainly capable of dealing with randoms (see also your 2-0 vs MUD), but that doesn't mean it's necessarily preferred.

Thoughts on the list:

3 Vets 0 DRS is a problem, as you noted. This deck needs its ramp very badly, especially Vet -- Vet is one of the stronger cards in the deck, which isn't typically true of most Nic Fits, oddly enough.

Griselbrand and Worldspine Wurm are extraneous. You just don't need either of them -- it's not that they're bad, certainly, they're just unnecessary. Griselbrand has basically been replaced by Woodland Bellower (what a sentence that is), and Worldspine is generally going to be worse than any of the other fatties. I guess if you really wanted one extra fatty, then Worldspine isn't the /worst/ thing in the world for that slot...but at the point at which you're two fatties over average count, you're going to run into stability problems.

Is Dread of Night better than Massacre?

Questions on the performance:

How was the 2/1 Top/Library split?

How was the removal suite? Did you see Fires enough? I know you mentioned wanting the 3rd Decay -- would finding room for the 3rd Decay in addition to 3 Fires and 3 Deeds be too much?

Did you ever end up needing to Bellower and not have Empath to grab?

How was the mana base in general?

Notes on matchups:

-) Dredge is very winnable if they don't just go off instantly. From all accounts, he had favorable hands for you to beat him and you (by admission) screwed it up. It happens. Don't beat yourself up!

-) Maverick is fine but you do have to respect the probable Dark Depths/Stage combo. I'm guessing he didn't have it, or at least he didn't think to go for it?

-) OmniTell there's nothing you can do about game 1. MAYBE if you hadn't forgot the Library trigger you could've drawn STE to Therapy (he FoW), play STE, flashback? I don't know enough info to know if that would've worked that way or not, but it's a thought. I think you played game 2 incorrectly (maybe it's just a difference, I don't know). I would've taken the Sneak Attack or the Griselbrand, almost certainly Sneak though. Here's why:

If you take Sneak Attack (and surgical it), he is forced on to Show and Tell. This means that he is /also/ forced on to Show and Tell + Omniscience, because if he Shows Grisel or Emrakul, he could just lose depending on what we put in, and he's not going to be willing to take that chance (let alone if you Empath for Emrakul to show him that you have it, as a nuclear deterrent of sorts). Since he had neither Show and Tell nor Griselbrand, it buys you the maximum amount of time of anything you could take in that hand. You tried way too hard to be the beatdown -- vs a slow combo deck like Omni/Sneak/whatever we're calling it these days, you want to be the control first, and then slam the door in their face real fuckin hard. Taking Sneak also opens you to the possibility of drawing Slaughter Games for "lethal," naming Show and Tell.

-) Hymn, Hymn, I win. BUG is easily the scariest Delver for us just because of that card.

-) Not much to go on, but don't forget the combo! Your best bet here is, as in many cases, Emrakul him. The more permanents he has to get rid of, the better. Surgical and Slaughter are 'okay,' especially if he's Loaming for the combo, but the better plan is to see to it that he just doesn't have the ability to do anything.

-) MUD doesn't seem as scary for Sneak, especially with the addition of the Fires. Always feels good to beat that deck.

-) Depending on the math and board state, and when the Flashback Therapy actually happened, it might have been more correct to take the Price and leave her with the Eidolons. Eidolon damages the burn player, too, and Eidolon is a much slower clock than Price is, generally speaking, especially if you already knew you were going to be Sneaking Emrakul // just needed to draw Zenith or another monster. There may have also been a line you could've taken to Sneak Thragtusk defensively as a blocker, but again, I'm not sure depending on the actual sequence of events.

[Zirath]

Vs. Delver Dryad Arbor gets Bolted/Wastelanded, meaning they have one less card to mess with the stuff you actually care about. That, in your eyes, is making the MU worse..? You do know that 4 spotremoval + 4 Wasteland is usually all they have to mess with us, right..? Having them give up one of those for a Dryad Arbor isn't that horrible. If they don't, all your followup spells either have Daze-proof (blanking 4 more of their cards) or can be powered out a turn earlier. Which is something else they have trouble dealing with. But yeah, that's probably not very helpful in that particular MU. Well, alrighty then.

Let me guess, you also consider Dryad Arbor to be a land, especially when you see it in your opening 7, and you don't like running too many DRS b/c they die to our own Pernicious Deed..? (I'm just trying to understand your mindset here)

What you are describing is exactly Scape Fit loses to not only Delver but also DnT. We don't have cantrips. If we miss on land drops while being disrupted, we can't do anything to change our options. We have to work with what's in our hand. The more time we give Delver and DnT, the more difficult the match up becomes. Trading a Bolt/Stp or a Waste for an entire turn of free board development is great for them.

As I said, I'm specifically referring to Scape/Sneak builds, not the midrange builds. The design theory is entirely different for those decks.

[Qweerios]

It's amazing to see Kevin still on here. He must have a pimped out deck :P I think I've read something Tao posted too...

This is just my ghostly opinion but;

I always played Arbor in Nic Fit, even with 3-4 Deeds. As a non-blue GSZ control and ramp deck that relies almost entirely on Cabal Therapy as its mainboard piece of disruption, I found Dryad to be most fitting and most necessary.

GSZ into Arbor is merely an option, not an obligation...

Oh here on the topic of combo-ish Nic Fit decks, this is the last list I've played and by far the most consistent:

Reanimator Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Entomb
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
1 Unburial Rite

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
//SB
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Grave Titan
1 Blazing Archon


It plays all the usual control and ramp but with better fatties, more Therapy flashbacks, and an Oops button that gives us game for our worst matchups.

[Whitefaces]

New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.

http://i.imgur.com/c5Bktyw.jpg

[Navsi]

New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.

http://i.imgur.com/c5Bktyw.jpg

Looks interesting. Needing four colours is probably a bit of an issue, though - 4C lists can be fine but are very cramped for slots. She's resistant to finishers, being the same slot as Meren (4 toughness, 4CMC) but just as vulnerable to Karakas and less relevant if she doesn't survive till we untap.

Being a finisher that is worthless at killing Miracles is not a good place to be.

[Arianrhod]

Well, we've been wanting a GSZ-able Baneslayer for approximately forever, and we've finally got her.

[maharis]

I like this one:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cvi6HtoWgAAbUWk.jpg

If you've got a BUG build with cards like Sylvan and Brainstorm, this thing can tap for a lot, which of course is good synergy with GSZ or cards with big colorless requirements.

[Whitefaces]

Looks interesting. Needing four colours is probably a bit of an issue, though - 4C lists can be fine but are very cramped for slots. She's resistant to finishers, being the same slot as Meren (4 toughness, 4CMC) but just as vulnerable to Karakas and less relevant if she doesn't survive till we untap.

Being a finisher that is worthless at killing Miracles is not a good place to be.

I think you're slightly underselling how powerful this is. The cost is restrictive, but she will come out with a GSZ most of the time I expect anyway.

Yes, Karakas is a thing. But that can be used in our favour too if she slots into a build with KotR and a Karakas of our own. Only DnT really play it these days anyway.

In these colours you have Sigarda as a finisher too so just GSZ her up instead for Miracles. Or if you have a Karakas to protect Atraxa it's still a pretty decent threat.

[Brael]

If you've got a BUG build with cards like Sylvan and Brainstorm, this thing can tap for a lot, which of course is good synergy with GSZ or cards with big colorless requirements.

Meh, 4 mana for a manadork isn't really where you want to be, even if it can realistically generate 5 mana a turn.

[Brael]

New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.

http://i.imgur.com/c5Bktyw.jpg

It doesn't seem good enough to me unless you can use the proliferate. For a color less you get Siege Rhino which is upfront life, and a bigger body. Maybe vigilance changes things but isn't it open to blowouts from REB?

[jbone2016]

Thoughts on the list:

3 Vets 0 DRS is a problem, as you noted. This deck needs its ramp very badly, especially Vet -- Vet is one of the stronger cards in the deck, which isn't typically true of most Nic Fits, oddly enough.

Griselbrand and Worldspine Wurm are extraneous. You just don't need either of them -- it's not that they're bad, certainly, they're just unnecessary. Griselbrand has basically been replaced by Woodland Bellower (what a sentence that is), and Worldspine is generally going to be worse than any of the other fatties. I guess if you really wanted one extra fatty, then Worldspine isn't the /worst/ thing in the world for that slot...but at the point at which you're two fatties over average count, you're going to run into stability problems.

Is Dread of Night better than Massacre? Probably not vs D And T, but i did see some teegs.

I'm fine with just 3 vets (since I have Steve). I agree on Griselbrand but Wurms do a lot of defense but so does grave titan. Sidsi was meh. Wouldn't mind a rune scarred demon or maybe massacre wurm in the board.


Questions on the performance:

How was the 2/1 Top/Library split? missed the 3rd top. Library was used sparingly. Still leaning towards a painful truths.

How was the removal suite? Did you see Fires enough? I know you mentioned wanting the 3rd Decay -- would finding room for the 3rd Decay in addition to 3 Fires and 3 Deeds be too much? Frankly I don't think the fires are really needed. Maybe just some bolts instead. Or terminates. I missed my K-grip a couple of times.

Did you ever end up needing to Bellower and not have Empath to grab? Never happened. Sometimes I wanted a 2nd witness.

How was the mana base in general? Usually wanted a 2nd swamp.

[Whitefaces]

It doesn't seem good enough to me unless you can use the proliferate. For a color less you get Siege Rhino which is upfront life, and a bigger body. Maybe vigilance changes things but isn't it open to blowouts from REB?

I don't think the proliferate needs to be relevant, it'll be fun to fuck with peoples chalices though! Nice with PWers too of course.

Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.

I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.

[Zirath]

I don't think the proliferate needs to be relevant, it'll be fun to fuck with peoples chalices though! Nice with PWers too of course.

Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.

I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.

The card is in a really weird space functionally. It does everything we wanted a few years ago. However, its effect is still super powerful against a plethora of decks that aren't DTB. The problem is that she's only great against Delver and Shardless and is dissapointing against Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles, and DnT. I think it's not as simple as placing it into a known list; she changes a lot of our previous designs.

Kydele is likely broken, in Commander.

[Brael]

I don't think the proliferate needs to be relevant, it'll be fun to fuck with peoples chalices though! Nice with PWers too of course.

I do like the Chalice interaction to get things off 1. I think it's a key part of making the card work though. Keyword soup is great and all, but it's still just a 4/4 that doesn't impact the board and it's blue which is the hardest color to make work with Nic Fit (as if blue didn't already have enough problems, adding the 4th color is a big one). Vigiliance/Lifelink is a nice combo, especially paired with flying but I guess I'm just not convinced yet and blue certainly isn't bad in Legacy, but it's tough to put in this deck.


Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.

4/5 is very relevant against Goyfs.


I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.

I think if you're playing this, you're also playing a few other blue cards. It's the Slaughter Games problem, one color symbol on one card isn't worth what it does to your manabase, the color needs to have more impact, which in turn means opening yourself up to the anti blue cards. Maybe there will be enough other support to make it viable, I'm not seeing it as the only blue card though.

Edit: I think this one is MUCH more along the lines of what we're looking for in a 4C card.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/127/941/636129212209152447.png

At least, it's what I'm looking for. It's aggressive, it's fast, it's a solid use for mana ramp, we can GSZ it, and it really helps out with our clock. Coincidentally, it's even a human (not that anyone other than me cares about that with Caverns as a 4C enabler).

This for example is a good Jace killer. You can GSZ at 5 which is a tough cost to stop (just FoW), swing, hit the opponent, then redirect the triggers to Jace.

[Echelon]

What you are describing is exactly Scape Fit loses to not only Delver but also DnT. We don't have cantrips. If we miss on land drops while being disrupted, we can't do anything to change our options. We have to work with what's in our hand. The more time we give Delver and DnT, the more difficult the match up becomes. Trading a Bolt/Stp or a Waste for an entire turn of free board development is great for them.

As I said, I'm specifically referring to Scape/Sneak builds, not the midrange builds. The design theory is entirely different for those decks.

Switching from Sneak Fit to Scape Fit to make your argument valid. Apples & oranges, buddy. It doesn't work that way. Moving on.


New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.


I think you're slightly underselling how powerful this is. The cost is restrictive, but she will come out with a GSZ most of the time I expect anyway.

Yes, Karakas is a thing. But that can be used in our favour too if she slots into a build with KotR and a Karakas of our own. Only DnT really play it these days anyway.

In these colours you have Sigarda as a finisher too so just GSZ her up instead for Miracles. Or if you have a Karakas to protect Atraxa it's still a pretty decent threat.

Do we really need any more help vs. anyDelver? Yes, it's basically a GSZ'able, flying Batterskull (which is fucking awesome), but it doesn't really fix any of the problems the deck has. If anything, it might take the place of 1 Siege Rhino and that's about it.


Edit: I think this one is MUCH more along the lines of what we're looking for in a 4C card.

At least, it's what I'm looking for. It's aggressive, it's fast, it's a solid use for mana ramp, we can GSZ it, and it really helps out with our clock. Coincidentally, it's even a human (not that anyone other than me cares about that with Caverns as a 4C enabler).

This for example is a good Jace killer. You can GSZ at 5 which is a tough cost to stop (just FoW), swing, hit the opponent, then redirect the triggers to Jace.

Miracles also tends to play regular Counterspell. So There's that. Concerning Saskia: It makes all of your creatures beat twice as hard. Period. Siege Rhino + Saskia does more damage than Siege Rhino + Siege Rhino (as long as you connect w/ an opponent). That's cool. As for Jace-killing - it still folds to both StP and Terminus.

Seems like we've got our work cut out for us as far as our manabases are concerned. Sheesh. Also, we might have to rename to EDH Fit.

[Ulysse95]

From my experience, Atraxa as the same problems as Chromanticore (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte.php?ref=bng144) in worst.

I mind: some people said "for the blue we will actually GSZ it most of the time". I had more options than that at the time and it blocked me some times either way (rector option, resurect from starfield option). Which was pointed out by our community.
Here, Atraxa is legendary which means if it's bounced by a Karakas or Jace after zenithing it, you mostly won't be able to play it again.

The blue color of the card seems to be an issue only in a painter match up. I won't see any other deck putting in REB for only 1 card or 2.

[bruizar]

I lost track of the latest iterations you guys are sporting. Seems like thelists have gone many ways since the first lists. I was unaware that sneak attack was a thing for you guys, seems like natural order is still a better more consistent finisher if you are looking for that effect, or madcap experiment into emporium. Whats the latest 3 or so iterations discussed in this thread? we're still running GBWU so Atraxa is an option for our group. Lack of first strike is a shame though. The proliferate is rather sweet as it will intervere with chalices, aether vials and the occasional tapped out explosives given end step trigger

[Echelon]

@bruizar: Somewhat faster, more consistant Junk Fit lists and Sneak Fit lists mostly. It has been pretty quiet around BUG Fit.

As for NO - Elves! is the better NO-deck. There, it says "I win this combat phase" and the deck has the mana to hardcast their fattie if they happen to draw it. And sadly the NO plan folds to the same things normal Nic Fit builds fold to - Terminus. So it doesn't really help improve bad MUs.

[bruizar]

@bruizar: Somewhat faster, more consistant Junk Fit lists and Sneak Fit lists mostly. It has been pretty quiet around BUG Fit.

As for NO - Elves! is the better NO-deck. There, it says "I win this combat phase" and the deck has the mana to hardcast their fattie if they happen to draw it. And sadly the NO plan folds to the same things normal Nic Fit builds fold to - Terminus. So it doesn't really help improve bad MUs.

Thanks, could you post one of the two lists? Is sneakfit, doing better than junk fit?

[Echelon]

Here's my current list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction

It's pretty cookiecutter. The real gems are the lists from sdematt & Brael. They're well ahead of the rest of the pack. Perhaps they can post theirs again?

The Sneak Fit lists I'll leave up to the people actually playing that.

As for results - well, apart from the local scenes, neither list really makes an impact worth mentioning, I'm affraid.

[Navsi]

As far as Sneak goes, this is that I'm on at the moment:

2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
7 Fetchland

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sneak Attack
1 Flex Slot (Maelstrom Pulse is default choice)

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
1 Gaze of Granite
1 To the Slaughter

Currently looking at possibly switching up the fatties a bit (Primeval might be a second Bellower, Inferno Titan might be Dragonlord Atarka, might want to go up to 5 adding a Wurmcoil Engine or Grave Titan). New (5-drop) Nissa is also potentially worth a look. I'm looking at giving Distended Mindbender a try in either the side or the main as an Empath target. The deck kind of wants an additional source of black mana, I'm thinking of dropping a Grove or Volrath's for a second Badlands.

[Zirath]

Switching from Sneak Fit to Scape Fit to make your argument valid. Apples & oranges, buddy. It doesn't work that way. Moving on.

No. This is empirical evidence. Two decks that overlap functionally should have a similar design consideration. These aren't apples and oranges; these are Granny Smiths and Macintoshs.

You completely missed the point I am making. You are still commenting from theory unless I have misread. Have you verified that playing Dryad Arbor actually provides an overall benefit? You can't refute an observed result and claim a theoretical sequence is valid; as you said, it doesn't work that way.


I lost track of the latest iterations you guys are sporting. Seems like thelists have gone many ways since the first lists. I was unaware that sneak attack was a thing for you guys, seems like natural order is still a better more consistent finisher if you are looking for that effect, or madcap experiment into emporium.

Both of those interactions are more narrow than Sneak Attack. Unfortunately, Sneak Attack is a broken card.

[Brael]

I lost track of the latest iterations you guys are sporting. Seems like thelists have gone many ways since the first lists. I was unaware that sneak attack was a thing for you guys, seems like natural order is still a better more consistent finisher if you are looking for that effect, or madcap experiment into emporium. Whats the latest 3 or so iterations discussed in this thread? we're still running GBWU so Atraxa is an option for our group. Lack of first strike is a shame though. The proliferate is rather sweet as it will intervere with chalices, aether vials and the occasional tapped out explosives given end step trigger

Here's what I'm running, it's basically built for a lower curve+CA. The Sneak lists are what most discussion has revolved around lately though.
Land 22
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 21
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Shriekmaw
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tidehollow Sculler




Seems like we've got our work cut out for us as far as our manabases are concerned. Sheesh. Also, we might have to rename to EDH Fit.

I'm still not sold on 4C, if I were to go 4C though I think I would be adding red over blue. Dragonmaster Outcast (over Endless One) + Sylvan Safekeeper off of Ranger of Eos seems neat. This new 4C creature (over Meren), one more solid red card alongside Slaughter Games would make me consider it. As far as the manabase goes, I was thinking something like this.

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold

It's +1 land overall so it would require some card to be cut, probably a DRS.


You completely missed the point I am making. You are still commenting from theory unless I have misread. Have you verified that playing Dryad Arbor actually provides an overall benefit? You can't refute an observed result and claim a theoretical sequence is valid; as you said, it doesn't work that way.

If you're willing to burn GSZ's on Arbor, then it provides a benefit because it makes your deck effectively 26 land in the early turns where higher land counts are more effective, but lets you drop to 22 later on once your mana is established.

GSZ into Arbor is the whole reason why Arbor is worthwhile in the deck, and it's a very strong interaction.

[Arianrhod]

I would like to point out that I have had success with Sneak in a larger than local setting, but I understand the sentiment. I just don't want people thinking that this is a mere flight of fancy.

GBW has a long history at this point of splashing a fourth color. It's usually red, for Slaughter Games, but Atraxa definitely pushes us towards blue. I will probably work on something GBWu after Eternal Weekend before I go into hibernation for a while.

[Zirath]

If you're willing to burn GSZ's on Arbor, then it provides a benefit because it makes your deck effectively 26 land in the early turns where higher land counts are more effective, but lets you drop to 22 later on once your mana is established.

GSZ into Arbor is the whole reason why Arbor is worthwhile in the deck, and it's a very strong interaction.

That's idealized. Even if it's a strong interaction, there is a reason ScapeFit consistently didn't run Dryad Arbor. I'm not sure why this point isn't coming across. I feel like if people are consistently claiming it's should be considered why no one is willing to test and prove it.

[Brael]

That's idealized. Even if it's a strong interaction, there is a reason ScapeFit consistently didn't run Dryad Arbor. I'm not sure why this point isn't coming across. I feel like if people are consistently claiming it's should be considered why no one is willing to test and prove it.

Scapefit decks also run more than 21-22 lands.

[Zirath]

Scapefit decks also run more than 21-22 lands.

That is a very compelling argument to me. Given that the Sneak Fit list is very tight, what is most likely cut for an Arbor (Navsi's last list is a good point to work from, it's very close to what I am thinking, few slots differences)?

I'm not trying to fight, I want to be convinced that Arbor is good because I fundamentally agree that 8 accelerates in a combo deck that is land light should be better than 4 (or 12 rather than 8 if you prefer) but the combo lists haven't been able to use them effectively. Essentially, I believe that being able to reach turn 5 asap is more powerful than anything else we can do in a deck that attacks for 15.

[Brael]

That is a very compelling argument to me. Given that the Sneak Fit list is very tight, what is most likely cut for an Arbor (Navsi's last list is a good point to work from, it's very close to what I am thinking, few slots differences)?

I'm not trying to fight, I want to be convinced that Arbor is good because I fundamentally agree that 8 accelerates in a combo deck that is land light should be better than 4 (or 12 rather than 8 if you prefer) but the combo lists haven't been able to use them effectively. Essentially, I believe that being able to reach turn 5 asap is more powerful than anything else we can do in a deck that attacks for 15.

I don't know the Sneak Fit lists well enough. I gave them a try a few weeks ago but that's all. What I found was that you generally didn't want to give up a GSZ early because the deck only has so much fuel. It would be much better for that GSZ to get an Empath/Bellower. With that in mind, perhaps the right card isn't a Dryad Arbor but rather another DRS. I did feel like the list didn't accelerate quickly enough.

When it comes to finding a cut, I think it's the Pulse in the flex slot on the idea that if you're a turn faster you're less likely to need the removal.

[Warden]

New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.

http://i.imgur.com/c5Bktyw.jpg

I'm really not a fan of this card. It's strong, but it doesn't improve matchups we need help with.

@Brael: That's an interesting list/concept. I think I'd swap Oracle > Courser because you want to drop double lands every turn (clues, general ramp).
I didn't test your list...but I can't help but think Mentor doesn't earn enough tokens. You'd have to drop dudes for spells (most likely draw spells). Otherwise you're praying for double SDT to chain.

[Brael]

I'm really not a fan of this card. It's strong, but it doesn't improve matchups we need help with.

@Brael: That's an interesting list/concept. I think I'd swap Oracle > Courser because you want to drop double lands every turn (clues, general ramp).
I didn't test your list...but I can't help but think Mentor doesn't earn enough tokens. You'd have to drop dudes for spells (most likely draw spells). Otherwise you're praying for double SDT to chain.

I like the more efficient body of Courser (bigger body, lower mana cost) and the incremental life gain. Oracle is certainly something worth trying out, but I won't be able to do so for awhile. I'm locked into my current list through January for a league.

You would be surprised at how many spells you can cast with Mentor. Basically, just a single Top is enough. I've had the scenario with a lone Mentor facing a near empty board, removal in my hand, and having to just keep Mentor a 2/2 but I'm already winning those games.

If you have a single Top you're virtually guaranteed 2 Prowess triggers a turn if you're good about bouncing it to your library. Mentor followed by 1 spell (the Top you bounced the turn you're playing it), followed by 2 spells on the next turn is 7 damage and 4 bodies. The turn after, a single spell, (such as a GSZ getting you an Eternal Witness, which gets you another spell) is 9. Even in an anemic situation like that it generates lethal.

Remember that it plays well with Therapy flashbacks too. You can use summoning sick Monks to cast flashbacks to boost the rest and clear the way.

[Zirath]

Atraxa's only issue is the lack of First Strike. If she had it, the calculation is free.

Courser's butt is part of the reason he's so good. Bolt resistance matters a lot for our non-perishable creatures.

[Echelon]

Courser's butt is part of the reason he's so good. Bolt resistance matters a lot for our non-perishable creatures.

So that good old Sir Mixalot had a point afterall..?

[rubblekill]

Oh here on the topic of combo-ish Nic Fit decks, this is the last list I've played and by far the most consistent:

Reanimator Fit

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Entomb
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
1 Unburial Rite

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
//SB
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Grave Titan
1 Blazing Archon


It plays all the usual control and ramp but with better fatties, more Therapy flashbacks, and an Oops button that gives us game for our worst matchups.

Very interesting list in my opinion. I have always wanted to have some kind of "I win button" in Junk. And the list seems pretty streamlined.
I'd play this online but the 3 LoTV (->300$) prevent me from doing so; I imagine they are pretty essential, aka not replaceable, to this kind of strategy right?

[AtticusBlaqk]

I don't know the Sneak Fit lists well enough. I gave them a try a few weeks ago but that's all. What I found was that you generally didn't want to give up a GSZ early because the deck only has so much fuel. It would be much better for that GSZ to get an Empath/Bellower. With that in mind, perhaps the right card isn't a Dryad Arbor but rather another DRS. I did feel like the list didn't accelerate quickly enough.

When it comes to finding a cut, I think it's the Pulse in the flex slot on the idea that if you're a turn faster you're less likely to need the removal.

Just throwing my two cents in on the Dryad Arbor...

I have been playing a Stoneforge build for a few months and running a Dryad Arbor. I don't treat Dryad Arbor as a land but more like an uncounterable creature with flash. I never want to draw it or find it with GSZ it's always something that I'll fetch for EOT if I have Equipment, Garruk the Veil-cursed, or Elspeth Knight Errant. I used to play a Diabolic Intent that I could fetch Arbor for but the Diabolic Intent has been replaced with a 3rd SDT.

I doubt that I would play Arbor in any NicFit variants that didn't either have some way to boost the Arbor P/T or get additional sac benefit (beyond our standard Therapies)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brael]

Just throwing my two cents in on the Dryad Arbor...

I have been playing a Stoneforge build for a few months and running a Dryad Arbor. I don't treat Dryad Arbor as a land but more like an uncounterable creature with flash. I never want to draw it or find it with GSZ it's always something that I'll fetch for EOT if I have Equipment, Garruk the Veil-cursed, or Elspeth Knight Errant. I used to play a Diabolic Intent that I could fetch Arbor for but the Diabolic Intent has been replaced with a 3rd SDT.

I doubt that I would play Arbor in any NicFit variants that didn't either have some way to boost the Arbor P/T or get additional sac benefit (beyond our standard Therapies)


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I think you're missing the most important use of Arbor which is that he's a T1 source of mana acceleration. Arbor greatly expands your range of hands that have access to 3 mana on T2.

I can't boost Arbors P/T in mine, but I still find it to be very useful. Mana is important.

[Navsi]

I think you're missing the most important use of Arbor which is that he's a T1 source of mana acceleration. Arbor greatly expands your range of hands that have access to 3 mana on T2.

I can't boost Arbors P/T in mine, but I still find it to be very useful. Mana is important.

To be fair, making 3 mana on turn two is less important to a Stoneforge list than it is to most other builds, since they have plenty of good two-drops to play instead.

[Brael]

To be fair, making 3 mana on turn two is less important to a Stoneforge list than it is to most other builds, since they have plenty of good two-drops to play instead.

That's why you play a 2 drop and a 1 drop.

[Qweerios]

Very interesting list in my opinion. I have always wanted to have some kind of "I win button" in Junk. And the list seems pretty streamlined.
I'd play this online but the 3 LoTV (->300$) prevent me from doing so; I imagine they are pretty essential, aka not replaceable, to this kind of strategy right?

You can easily replace her with collective brutality. It might even be better... This is an older list I haven't updated.

[Zirath]

You can easily replace her with collective brutality. It might even be better... This is an older list I haven't updated.

Collective Brutality seems mandatory in Reanimator based lists (independently of the back bone).

Of note, Arian and I were playing around with a Sultai Reanimator list before the Dig Through Time ban last year that played Jace, Vryn's Prodigy as an enabler as well as maindeck Show and Tell. We haven't explorer it more but I think that Reanimator subshells are one of the design spaces we haven't exhausted. Collective Brutality also adds to this since we didn't have great enablers in the past list other than Jace and Therapy.

[Qweerios]

Entomb, Reanimate, and castable fatties fit with ease in Nic Fit and mitigates most of its weaknesses. I don't understand why it is not being explored. I mean, I understand why it isn't talked about in this thread but I have seen the idea be dismissed too many times anywhere.

[Echelon]

Entomb, Reanimate, and castable fatties fit with ease in Nic Fit and mitigates most of its weaknesses. I don't understand why it is not being explored. I mean, I understand why it isn't talked about in this thread but I have seen the idea be dismissed too many times anywhere.

It pretty much boils down to if you want to go for that plan, there are decks that do it better (so why bother with Nic Fit?).

[rubblekill]

It pretty much boils down to if you want to go for that plan, there are decks that do it better (so why bother with Nic Fit?).

While you are probably right, can't the same be said for the sneaky build? Honest question, I'm not trolling.
Both the reanimator and the SA build have explosive combos that have creatures that can still be casted normally: don't the big red or S&S decks execute the SA plan better? The question sparks from someone like me who hasn't played the deck yet, but I'm asking honestly because I want to test more comboish versions and I have to decide if I want to go the SA route or the collective brutality - entomb one

[Echelon]

While you are probably right, can't the same be said for the sneaky build? Honest question, I'm not trolling.
Both the reanimator and the SA build have explosive combos that have creatures that can still be casted normally: don't the big red or S&S decks execute the SA plan better? The question sparks from someone like me who hasn't played the deck yet, but I'm asking honestly because I want to test more comboish versions and I have to decide if I want to go the SA route or the collective brutality - entomb one

That's what I tried really hard not to say. But very likely, yes. Having a full cantrip & counter suite means they execute the same gameplan more consistently under the cover of counter magic and b/c of that also have a better MU vs. other fast combo decks.

[Navsi]

I don't know if that's necessarily accurate. Nic Fit combo lists naturally play a lot less filtering and potentially also less combo pieces than a dedicated combo deck like Sneak and Show. Not playing countermagic and having a slower combo are definitely disadvantages.

What the deck does have, though, is a much better backup plan. We run a lot more interaction, with removal spells and discard in relevant quantities in the main deck, and we have an extremely viable backup plan which means we're less likely to brick out and do nothing if we don't have one of our combo pieces, or one gets countered.

Scapeshift has it worse than Sneak, just because it's backup plan is a lot worse. Being a one card combo deck means it can kill people pretty well out of absolutely nowhere, though, so it does have its redeeming features.

[Zirath]

That's what I tried really hard not to say. But very likely, yes. Having a full cantrip & counter suite means they execute the same gameplan more consistently under the cover of counter magic and b/c of that also have a better MU vs. other fast combo decks.

Sneak Show (as well as Reanimator) is performing badly due to the abundance of DnT. Cantrips and permission are naturally weak to that mana denial strategy. There's something to be said for having a plan B that isn't identical to plan A that also happens to be very strong against a creature deck.

Pure combo decks don't really compete well right now. I think that based on Miracles and Lands performing as well as they are that Combo Control is much more reliable in this meta.