[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Kobra_D]

I have a question for the Nic Fit community. I am new to the deck and have been trying to test a lot with it. My problem is that I can find myself stabilizing games but I don't find the win easily. It takes several turns to finish the game, which if I go to g3 it can easily take more than 50 min.

I'm sure some of this is with my unfamiliarity and learning how to make decisions with the deck. But is there any advice with how to play that might help? Or is it really a case of "practice makes perfect."

Thanks for the help.

[TTX]

I have a question for the Nic Fit community. I am new to the deck and have been trying to test a lot with it. My problem is that I can find myself stabilizing games but I don't find the win easily. It takes several turns to finish the game, which if I go to g3 it can easily take more than 50 min.

I'm sure some of this is with my unfamiliarity and learning how to make decisions with the deck. But is there any advice with how to play that might help? Or is it really a case of "practice makes perfect."

Thanks for the help.

SDT and Fetchlands help a lot. Tireless Tracker is great. Sometimes hold your GSZ for a later turn so you get a bigger threat


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Also just practice doing all of your mechanical things like fetching, spinning top, resolving triggers and such to get faster at it.

[Brael]

Played another of my weekly league matches during our local Thursday Legacy. My tournament deck was Burn, but my league deck was Nic Fit so I have a match to report. I played against Dragon Stompy, which if you're not familiar is basically a prison deck. It tries to lock you out with Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, Chalice, and Trinisphere then close the game with a threat.

I ended up winning it 2-1 which makes me 3-1 so far with Nic Fit.

Lost G1 by committing the cardinal sin of keeping a hand without green mana (Plains/Scrubland) my hand was Plains, Scrubland, Tireless Tracker, Scavenging Ooze, Eternal Witness, Cabal Therapy, SDT. Opened on Scrubland, called Blood Moon with a T1 Therapy, opponent had Magus instead but no way to accelerate into it on T2. I missed on green on T2 and played Top. Over the next few turns I found Bayou, Windswept Heath (Mountain), Ranger of Eos, and Endless One but I couldn't cast anything until it was too late. The Ranger and/or Endless One would have been great a turn earlier, but at the time I found them the damage was done, I was facing down a Rabblemaster with 2 tokens (and a third on the next turn) and a Magus of the Moon which is 10 damage.

G2 involved a T1 Therapy that hit 2 Blood Moons. Opponent played a T1 Chalice for 1. My turn 2 was a Cavern of Souls on Human and Noble Hierarch. Opponent went with a T2 Chalice for 2, but I used the Cavern to cast a Dark Confidant. Afterwards was a Rabblemaster but I traded Bob for it, then Eternal Witnessed Bob, traded EW for the token, and let my 2 draw steps per turn run away with the game.

G3 was similar. I got both my Caverns but didn't need either and I actually drew basics to play through a Blood Moon, and that's precisely what happened (though the Blood Moon came down late). The game rounded the corner for me on T4. The opponent had a Chalice on 1 on board and a Rabblemaster. I had Forest, Swamp, Scrubland, Verdant Catacombs on board. I played a Pernicious Deed, then after attackers were declared blew it up for 0 to take out the tokens+Chalice, and followed it up with a Path on the Rabblemaster. After that KotR+Hierarch came down and I started hitting my opponent really hard.

Never drew an Explorer or GSZ in all 3 games. No opportunities for Mentor to shine in this match either, and my SB plan was using the KotR package over Mentors (-1 Phyrexian Tower, -2 Mentor, +1 Cavern, +1 Shriekmaw, +1 KotR, I make this SB swap a lot) but I think I've identified one more change I would like to make. The Mentors push the mana sinks in the deck a little too hard so I think I want to ease up on that a bit and turn Tireless Tracker #2 into Dark Confidant #3. Bob is absolutely amazing, in the past months worth of matches I've played with Nic Fit I haven't lost a single game where it has hit the table.

This may be too results oriented because there's a 50% chance I would have won that G1 if the Tracker were a Bob (50/50 it was Tracker #1 or #2), but I think the rest of the logic is still sound. You have to be very disciplined with your curve to play Bob in a ramp deck, but he has been amazing for me.


I'm sure some of this is with my unfamiliarity and learning how to make decisions with the deck. But is there any advice with how to play that might help? Or is it really a case of "practice makes perfect."


It's an SDT deck, and we have 100 other things to do during our turn. The clock is going to be your enemy, and most people in paper aren't overly familiar with the deck (though it's "that explorer/ramp deck" online) which means they think longer about how to deal with us on their turn, which is completely fair. The only thing you can do is play faster, and if your opponent is slow playing, you need to call that out right away because you need all the minutes in the round.

If you play the deck long enough, you'll start to get faster with your decisions. It's a deck where you need to play briskly. If you don't feel like you can speed up your play, you can try to develop a better shuffling technique, that's a big time waster in paper as this is a deck where it's not unheard of to shuffle 2 or 3 times per turn.

Edit: There's a lot of small things I do to speed up my play. I'm a very technical player so this first one is really hard for me but I try to shortcut wherever possible, particularly with shuffling. For example, crack a fetch, get my land, and then wait to shuffle because I'm casting a GSZ. If you do everything as written that sequence has you shuffling 3 times but it's something you can shortcut to 1 shuffle regardless of outcome.

Another thing you can do is to try and reduce decision fatigue. Not only will this result in you making better plays, but you'll make them faster. I'm somewhat critical of the super toolbox deck with 20 things to tutor for this reason. It has been my experience that 90% of the tutoring in the deck is contained to 4 cards or so. So I cut down on the toolbox a bit, which is why I run cards like Dark Confidant and Tireless Tracker, which you want to draw naturally but not tutor. This also makes me skeptical of cards like Diabolic Intent because alongside their power comes a much bigger decision. In low round tournaments this doesn't matter, but the longer things go, the slower you get as the tournament goes late.

One that many overlook or outright work against is memory. How often have you played a game against someone, and after a Thoughtseize, Probe, or Therapy they write down the opponents hand? This is a HUGE waste of time. If you have or can develop a good short term memory you can just look at an opponents hand and save yourself time writing down cards. This is also true of SDT, the really bad SDT players write their cards down, the mediocre ones occasionally reactivate Top because they forget what they had. Card memorization skills apply just as much to remembering your cards as your opponents. Not everyone can do this, and I think it's the last thing to work on, but it's also something you can actively practice in any game. I've found a good way to practice this skill is to try and recall a game after a match. You can see this in action with me in this very post, recalling my G1 hand. Retelling games is how I practice my card memorization ability.

Last is shuffling technique. Personally, I use the mash but I've been working on riffles and will eventually move to it. My mash technique is good:

Divide deck in two, grabbing the middle half as one pile, side quarters as the other
Mash one into the other
Cut, put bottom half above top half
Repeat


This gives a better shuffle than the typical mash because it moves stuff to the middle where most cards get mashed so you can better distribute cards in less time. Riffles are the best though. I find it takes me about 3 seconds to do a cycle of my mash pattern, and proper shuffling needs 12 of them, so shuffling well takes 36 seconds. Riffles take 2 seconds and only need 8 which is 16 seconds. Over the course of 10 shuffles in a game that's 200 seconds or 3:20 saved. Over 3 games that's an extra 10 minutes you get in the round which is another 8+ turns.

And the best time saver of all: Have some sort of I win combo like Sneak Attack or Mentor that ends the game quickly and reliably. Taking game 1 out of nowhere is the best time saver you can have in a match.

[Brael]

Actually, double post because this card is interesting enough to be worth discussing.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/bn8f9t2zc_C16/kCB1yYO1nV_EN.png

One of the big issues we often have is in choosing fetches to maximize getting the basics we need. The traditional 4 Catacomb/Windswept, 3 forest, 2 plains, 1 swamp results in just 6 ways to get a Plains and 5 ways to get a Swamp.

For the cost of 1 mana (which is essentially the same cost as something coming in tapped) we could use this to get that basic. But, it also has the alternative mode that similar cards like Evolving Wilds lack which is that when we don't need the basic we can just play it out as our land. It's also a 1 mana shuffle effect, letting it function as something of a mana sink in addition to being a mana source.

Thoughts on it as a 1 of over say... Windswept Heath or Verdant Catacombs #4?

I think what's most drawing me to it, is the fact that it's a reactive answer to Blood Moon. I see quite a bit of Blood Moon locally and it requires fetching basics early and often, slowing myself down in order to not get locked out later. If this is in your hand though, you're pretty free to fetch duals, and then once a Moon comes down you can cycle into the land you need.

Edit: Upon thinking longer I'm liking some more stuff about this land too. First, it's a pain free way to get all 3 colors of mana. Second, it's a good DRS enabler so it can slot in over a fetch well. Third, the Wasteland interaction is pretty strong. If you fear Wasteland you can cash this in for any basic you need, but if you don't you can just play it out and tap. This card deals with Wasteland better than fetches do, because those can only get 2 colors while this gets anything.

[Echelon]

One of the big issues we often have is in choosing fetches to maximize getting the basics we need. The traditional 4 Catacomb/Windswept, 3 forest, 2 plains, 1 swamp results in just 6 ways to get a Plains and 5 ways to get a Swamp.

For the cost of 1 mana (which is essentially the same cost as something coming in tapped) we could use this to get that basic. But, it also has the alternative mode that similar cards like Evolving Wilds lack which is that when we don't need the basic we can just play it out as our land. It's also a 1 mana shuffle effect, letting it function as something of a mana sink in addition to being a mana source.

Thoughts on it as a 1 of over say... Windswept Heath or Verdant Catacombs #4?

I think what's most drawing me to it, is the fact that it's a reactive answer to Blood Moon. I see quite a bit of Blood Moon locally and it requires fetching basics early and often, slowing myself down in order to not get locked out later. If this is in your hand though, you're pretty free to fetch duals, and then once a Moon comes down you can cycle into the land you need.

Edit: Upon thinking longer I'm liking some more stuff about this land too. First, it's a pain free way to get all 3 colors of mana. Second, it's a good DRS enabler so it can slot in over a fetch well. Third, the Wasteland interaction is pretty strong. If you fear Wasteland you can cash this in for any basic you need, but if you don't you can just play it out and tap. This card deals with Wasteland better than fetches do, because those can only get 2 colors while this gets anything.

Or, you know, you just run 10 fetchlands. W/ 4 Catacombs, 4 Heaths, 2 BW ones and 2 of each basic you get to 10/8/8/ virtual Forest/Swamp/Plains. Works quite well, I can tell you.

The problem I have with the land is that it doesn't give you the colour of mana you want on T1. It's probably not that big of an issue, but still.

@Kobra: Basically what Brael said. Know your list in and out, remember what cards you see w/ Top & Therapy (or in case of Therapy just remember the most important 2 or so). As for gameplan - disrupt, stabilize, get your CA engines online, overwhelm w/ CA and beat opponent to submission.

[Kanti]

Just wanted to drop by and say these Sneak-and-Fit builds have given me some vigor! Question though, why are we still running PrimeTime Titan if we aren't running Scapeshift? Great card and all, but now that I can't nuke people out, should I be running something else?

[Brael]

Or, you know, you just run 10 fetchlands. W/ 4 Catacombs, 4 Heaths, 2 BW ones and 2 of each basic you get to 10/8/8/ virtual Forest/Swamp/Plains. Works quite well, I can tell you.


I've tried that, I like it. It doesn't work with Caverns though. I really like having the Caverns, they just won me the round I retold in that previous post. Lots of Chalice locally and having the ability to just Cavern through it helps a lot. They're great against the Delver, Miracles, etc matches too. Especially Miracles, where I'll do anything to strip answers from them and that makes it difficult to run 10 fetches.

10 fetch+4 dual+6 basics=20 lands. I run 4 utility lands between Cavern, Arbor, Tower, and Stronghold, so something has to give.



The problem I have with the land is that it doesn't give you the colour of mana you want on T1. It's probably not that big of an issue, but still.


Neither does Phyrexian Tower or Volraths and we can deal with that. The truth is, I'm falling out of love with the Tower lately. It's only good with a specific card in our hand to combo with it, but that's all really. Thinking about it more, Tower might be what I replace with this instead. That way it's a colorless for colorless swap, and Tower is really only great on T1 or T2, while this is more like Volraths and good any time other than T1.

[Kobra_D]

Thanks for all the ideas everyone.

I also have another question of an issue I ran into. This might have already been addressed but I didn't see it when quickly parsing the post.

gaddock teeg nombos with GSZ, is keeping some eldritch evolution in the SB viable? I'm not arguing that it is as good, it's not in most cases, but it is playable with GT in play.

[ChordFor15]

Hi, guys. I'm about to get into Legacy, and Nic Fit seems like a really cool deck. Are there any things I should know first? Also, is there an updated primer, or a collection of default lists for the various archetypes here? Thanks

[Brael]

Hi, guys. I'm about to get into Legacy, and Nic Fit seems like a really cool deck. Are there any things I should know first? Also, is there an updated primer, or a collection of default lists for the various archetypes here? Thanks

A lot of stuff. Most relevant:

First is that you should be prepared for a horrible win rate for a year or two, especially being new to Legacy. A huge part of the deck is identifying what you need to name with Cabal Therapy, your win rate depends on it. It's one of the hardest cards to play properly in Legacy (much harder than Brainstorm) and it's the central card that holds the deck together.

Second is to watch your mana curve. Just because you can play 5's, 6's, and 7's doesn't mean you always should.

Third is that you're going to be weak to combo, so you should make peace with that.

Fourth is that you're a non blue deck in a format that does a lot of unfair stuff. To be successful in Legacy you need interaction. Typically this is a mix of counters (or taxing), discard, and removal. Since you don't have counters, make sure you have discard and removal. It's the deck building tax to play the format, lots of newcomers to Legacy get too involved in what they want to do, and forget that their opponent is also doing powerful stuff.

It's a fun deck, and it's a good deck if built correctly and played well, but there's a reason it's not even in the top 50 most played decks in the format.

Oh, and don't buy anything initially. Proxy decks first, because you don't want to buy a bunch of cards and find out your deck sucks and/or that you don't like it.


Look back a page or two and we discuss a few lists. The most common build these days is Rhino Fit which you'll have to do some digging to find discussion on. Sneak Attack builds have gotten most of the discussion lately. I'm in love with what's called SE Fit, but no one else plays it (fortunately for you, I'm pretty vocal). In the primer is mention of some of the old GY recurring decks, they've fallen out of favor lately but are probably viable right now with DRS being lower in numbers these days.

[Echelon]

@Brael: I get your point.


Thanks for all the ideas everyone.

I also have another question of an issue I ran into. This might have already been addressed but I didn't see it when quickly parsing the post.

gaddock teeg nombos with GSZ, is keeping some eldritch evolution in the SB viable? I'm not arguing that it is as good, it's not in most cases, but it is playable with GT in play.

What MUs would you want to use Eldritch Evolution? And at the cost of what cards you'd play in your SB otherwise? If it's in the same slot as a 2 CMC hatebear (Ethersworn Canonist for instance) you might just be better off running that instead. Costs you a mana less, doesn't require a creature on the field to work and doesn't expose you to a 2-for-1.


Hi, guys. I'm about to get into Legacy, and Nic Fit seems like a really cool deck. Are there any things I should know first? Also, is there an updated primer, or a collection of default lists for the various archetypes here? Thanks

What Brael said, both to you and his first post to Kobra. Probably the most important thing is to be very critical of your list and aim to make it as quick and consistent as possible. Your list will be able to answer just about anything, but not necessarily in the most straightforward way. Due to what you play you sometimes get away with ignoring things your opponent does (Chalice of the Void can come to mind, or a lone flipped Delver of Secrets), allowing you to save hard removal for when you really need it. Don't be afraid of your creatures dying to your own Pernicious Deed - there's always more, and you can recur them to some degree. Same goes for flashbacking Cabal Therapy. Your opponent casts SFM and gets Batterskull? Feel free to sacrifice that Deathrite Shaman to get rid of it once and for all. Just don't forget to activate one of its abilities before doing so. A few turns later, drop a Siege Rhino and start swinging.

The deck rewards you for thinking on your feet, coming up with creative solutions and correctly identifying if something is a problem or not. Sometimes you just have to be patient and bide your time. That's probably the hardest part.

[rubblekill]

Has anybody considered DLD Atarka in the Sneak Fit version of the deck?
E: it may very well be a less efficient inferno titan, I'm asking for curiosity. No new developments on the deck?

[Brael]

Did anyone play this at Eternal Weekend?

[Zirath]

Did anyone play this at Eternal Weekend?

Arian did. He had a very good start and then some...Elves happened at the end. He'll probably make a big post about it later. For what it's worth, I think he did tremendously well given the limited amount of paper testing that was accessible to him.

[volrathxp]

I wasn't able to make it to EW, but I'm going to be jamming Sneak Fit at the Legacy Classic in CBus in a few weeks here, so I'll be sharing what my thoughts are after that both here and reddit.

I've been slightly wondering about the Primeval Titan in the list too, are we just using that to get Groves, or is there the potential of another creature that I could play that would be solid, like Grave Titan?

[Zirath]

I've been slightly wondering about the Primeval Titan in the list too, are we just using that to get Groves, or is there the potential of another creature that I could play that would be solid, like Grave Titan?

The primary one is Stronghold for the Miracles match up. Also a GSZ monster, which Gravey is not.

[volrathxp]

The primary one is Stronghold for the Miracles match up. Also a GSZ monster, which Gravey is not.

That's fair. I'll probably roll with the Prime Time, for sure.

[Brael]

I wasn't able to make it to EW, but I'm going to be jamming Sneak Fit at the Legacy Classic in CBus in a few weeks here, so I'll be sharing what my thoughts are after that both here and reddit.

I didn't realize there was a Columbus SCG coming up. I probably should have since there's always a Columbus SCG coming up. That would be fun to play in, I'll have to see if my schedule allows for it (it probably doesn't). I would love to give my list a spin in a bigger event.

[Navsi]

Unfortunately there aren't many Legacy events near me coming up, except at the end of November where I'm already booked with Worlds for a different game, so I won't have any new results for Sneak or any other lists any time soon.

On the plus side I've managed to acquire a copy of Living Plane, so I also have the option of bring the Starfield list if I do get to any events.

[Ulysse95]

On the plus side I've managed to acquire a copy of Living Plane, so I also have the option of bring the Starfield list if I do get to any events.

Oh! Yeah! ;)

[square_two]

Did anyone play this at Eternal Weekend?

I ran the sneak list for a 60ish man event Thursday and then again this morning. not too hot Thursday but I went 3-0 then split finals this morning. I basically made changes to better mimic Arianhod's (?) lIst. Deck felt smooth today and I beat stoneblade, miracles, and eldrazi. I ran with dragon stompy for the main eternal weekend event. I might post some thoughts later, typing this at airport. I feel that a competent pilot can go very far with this sneak list.

[volrathxp]

I ran the sneak list for a 60ish man event Thursday and then again this morning. not too hot Thursday but I went 3-0 then split finals this morning. I basically made changes to better mimic Arianhod's (?) lIst. Deck felt smooth today and I beat stoneblade, miracles, and eldrazi. I ran with dragon stompy for the main eternal weekend event. I might post some thoughts later, typing this at airport. I feel that a competent pilot can go very far with this sneak list.

I would be super interested in seeing your write up.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, let's begin:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 To the Slaughter

I ran this list first in a 5-round legacy trial on Friday afternoon, after being miserable in vintage (where I played Jeskai Nahiri -- the deck was fun but I was horrendously underprepared after audibling decks like 5 times in 2 days).

Trial:

Round 1: Stu on The Mighty Quinn

My opponent leads with Plains, Top, go, which pleases me. I Therapy him@jace and see Humility, Wrath of God, Orim's Chant, Tithe, and Flooded Strand. I flashback on the Humility, and then we hit the grinder. After something like 35-40 minutes in game one, he's managed to stop my Emrakul (or titans, or anything, really) approximately 6 times, through a combination of StP, Orim's Chant, and Terminus. He finally finds Rip/Helm and kills me.

Game two I blind Therapy naming Top on the play and hit 3, before ramping into a Nissa. Nissa pluses a land which gets StP'd, but then ults the following turn. I have an active Sneak in play with a single R and Sidisi in hand, and he has several cards in hand with untapped mana. My line is to Sidisi for Wooded Foothills, play+crack to draw 2. Next turn I Zenith@6 for Primeval, drawing 2 more and tutoring for 2 fetches. This continues for a couple of turns until I bury him so far under cards that he can't recover.

Even for as quick as game 2 was, we didn't have time for game 3. We got maybe 4-5 turns in apiece, but it wasn't nearly enough time for the match to be decided. It looked like I was favored going forward, but neither of us was willing to concede, so we drew in turns. This unfortunately killed any chance either of us had of getting a bye, which was only awarded to 5-0s.

Round 2: Ross on Miracles

I don't remember much of these games, sadly. I know that g1 my Therapy showed me Venser, Snare, Ponder, and Strand. I managed to resolve a Sneak Attack, snuck Primeval for two towers, and then just basically ground him out from there.

Game two is basically the same, except I have a turn 2 Carpet of Flowers which my opponent really, really wants to Counterbalance but flips a land. I use it in my second mainphase to play Fierce Empath, putting Primeval in hand. This threatens a turn 3 cast Primeval Titan. That doesn't come together, but Primeval does come down a couple turns later, and the game swiftly ends from there.

Round 3: Mike with Jund

These are two of the easiest games I've played in months. He doesn't do anything to meaningfully interact with me either game and dies to spaghetti quickly in both. Game two he double Hymned me and it just didn't matter.

Round 4: David with Eldrazi

Game 1: Despite his turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer and turn 3 Smasher, I kill him on my turn 4.

Game 2: A pair of Deathrites and a bunch of removal and big things completely shuts down his offensive. I absorb a lot of damage and use Deathrite to regain, while trading off and killing a couple things here and there. I eventually assemble the Sneak Attack + Eternal Witness + Meren loop and he concedes to value. Best play was Sneaking E.Wit to get back Thrag to Sneak Thrag to block TKS and trade with a Smasher out of nowhere. To The Slaughter also picked off another Smasher earlier.

Round 5: Travis with Eldrazi

His build of Eldrazi is much bigger than has Oblivion Sowers, built to crush the mirror. I crush him game 1 with Big Momma. Game two he murders me with a timely Warping Wail and then exiles my Emrakul and my Empath with an O.Sower. Two O.Sowers (and an active Eye of Ugin) later, I die.

Game three I topdeck Emrakul after a fast Sneak Attack/Vet/Tower and kill him on turn 3.

This puts me at 4-0-1 and good for a box and a half of Kaladesh.

The deck felt great, so I ran it back the next day with no changes.

Legacy Main Event:

Round 1: Josh with Death and Taxes

Game one I kill literally everything, and then I win. Karakas does not beat Sneak Attack.

Game two I take a billion damage from his Mishra's Factory with an onboard Deed, but elect to keep taking hits while stifling his development (I had Rec Sage in hand for Revoker iirc). He stalls the game out a bit but I eventually end step Sneak Bellower into untap Sneak Emrakul and win.

Sideboard: -1 Sneak Attack, -1 Meren, -1 Sidisi, -1 Veteran; +1 Rec Sage, +1 Gaze of Granite, +2 Pyroclasm

Round 2: Rick with Eldrazi

Game one he dies: his Thought-Knot Seer takes my Inferno Titan (which I could cast the following turn) instead of the Emrakul in my hand. I topdeck Sneak and kill him.

Game two is a series of highly unfortunate draws. I Therapy him and see 2 Reshaper, Cavern, Karakas, and Endless One, so I elect to leave a Vet in play. He rips Warping Wail and exiles it, followed by a series of basically perfect topdecks. I have one or two draws that could save me, but I don't get them and we're off to game 3.

Game three I have Vet on turn 1, vs his Eye of Ugin triple Endless One hand. I Deed him at 0, then set up Meren with Deathrite and close the game out.

Sideboarding: -3 Punishing Fire, -1 Top; +Rec Sage, +Gaze, +2 To the Slaughter

Round 3: Tom with Grixis Delver

This match was very unfortunate variance. He has "Delver hands" both games 1 and 3, although I did get game 2 off of him pretty convincingly. Both games 1 and 3 follow roughly the same pattern: he has 2x Delver + Deathrite, he counters my Punishing Fire while I have Vets in play and can't find a Cabal Therapy to save my goddamn life, and then I get Bolted off. Game 1 his last two cards were Force+blue to stop me from sweeping him, Game 3 he Git Probed to hit the Therapy he needed off the top to take away my 2x Decays. Frustrating, but it happens.

Sideboarding: -1 Top, -Sidisi, -Meren, -2 Deathrite Shaman; +2 Pyroclasm, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +Gaze

Round 4: Ryan with Death and Taxes

Currently 0-4 on die rolls.

Game one I land a Sneak Attack after 2x Vet + 2x Therapy+flashbacks, and he dies the next turn through Karakas.

Game two is a bit grindier, but Cabal Therapy again does a decent job of keeping him under control by taking away his Stoneforge targets and his Recruiters. I sweep him a couple times and get Punishing Fire set up, and eventually Bellower into Inferno Titan ends the game.

Sideboarding: the same as before.

Round 5: Jiyao on Grixis Delver

This is where the wheels fall off, sadly. Game one I kill all of his things and then him in a reasonably grindy but good paced game.

Game two my Carpet of Flowers gets hit by a surprise Krosan Grip, which locks me off of casting my Inferno Titan to stay alive the following turn. The game was close, but he edged me out.

Game three is the issue. We're tight on time, and he keeps an explosive hand that doesn't have a land, but has a Gitaxian Probe and is on the draw, which I kind of disagree with but is a defensible decision. Anyway, he doesn't get there...but my hand is also slow and controlling, so I can't really punish him very well. He eventually starts recovering, while I get a Sneak Attack out, but only have 1 red source. I play this wrong in a couple of ways:

My Top showed me Emrakul in my top 3, but I also had access to Bellower in my hand. I /could/ have popped Top to draw Emrakul and Sneak, but I didn't want to do this for two reasons:

-) He had a Surgical in hand, and I figured he was a competent enough player that he would've Surgicaled something random in response to the Top draw
-) If it DID go through, and I did get to Emrakul him, it would've done a bunch of damage but not been lethal, and he was running off of 1 land already for most of the game (although he was up to 3 now) -- AND I would've h ad to have shuffled away my Top.

I decided the long game favored me, so I Snuck Bellower and Empathed the Emrakul into my hand. This is, I believe, the correct decision. The error occurs here: I flashback Cabal Therapy (correct), saccing my Bellower (incorrect). I made this decision as a value play: I wanted the 1/1 to be around for future turns. This was a very subtle mistake, though, because I actually wanted the Empath in my graveyard so that it would shuffle back in with the Emrakul after either the Emrakul hit, or if he (as happened) cantripped three times into land+cabal therapy and made me discard it. Not having the Empath back in my deck definitely cost me this win, and is completely my fault.

Now, that being said, it took some impressive bullshit for this to occur. He had to cantrip into Therapy + land, and then even after he bought himself the time, he needed me, with 8+ lands in play (including all 3 groves), Sneak + Top in play, to NOT find Emrakul, Sidisi, Witness, or any of the three Punishing Fires still in the deck. After multiple shuffles every turn with an active Top, however, I didn't find what I needed, and we drew. I had a Bellower in play beating down and would have likely won in another two turns, but, we didn't have that kind of time.

This draw put me to 3-1-1 -- not the worst record in the world, but the draw should have been avoidable and should have been a win, but I suck.

I sideboarded slightly different -- I decided it was more correct to leave Sidisi in and board out Primeval Titan.

Round 6: Tyler with Miracles

He is on the legendary Miracles build. Game one I mull and then stumble on green mana. I draw out of it in a couple turns, and resolve a Sneak Attack through CB/Top after he Forced my Zenith@2. Bellower->Empath->Primeval->2T sets up into Inferno Titan, which ends the game after he tries to StP/Terminus it and 2T prevents it.

Game two I have to fight through Karakas+Venser...kinda weird but I never felt like I was particularly in danger of losing, and I end the game fairly quickly after that point.

Sideboarding: -4 Vet, -4 Therapy, -Meren, -1 ???, -Sidisi, +2 Carpet, +2 To the Slaughter, +2 Surgical, +2 Slaughter Games, +Gaze, +Rec Sage, +Nissa

Round 7: Dan with Elves

Game one, he wins the die roll, and kills me the turn before I kill him.

Game two, I assemble a fast Emrakul after a Deed@1 sweeps him, and kill him.

Game three, his last card after a sweeper is Natural Order, and he has a fetch in play. He makes a Progenitus and I can't find Emrakul in two turns, so I die.

Sideboarding: -Primeval, -1 Top, -Thragtusk, -Sidisi, -Meren; +2 Pyroclasm, +2 Thoughtseize, +Gaze

Round 8: Elliot on Aggro Loam

He concedes as soon as the match slip shows up, because he wants to go get food with his friends.

Round 9: Ed with Elves

Sigh.

I kill him game 1 with Emrakul having never seen a Natural Order, but I did see Wren's Run Packmaster. This leads me to think that he's on Chaos Elves, which is a matchup that I am much more comfortable with.

Game two he topdecks Natural Order vs Sneak/Top with 7 lands in play.

Game three I have Punishing Fire, but he has Cradle with Ooze and I can't keep it around. He topdecks Natural Order the turn before I land Inferno Titan, and I die.

Round 10: Pat with Miracles

I concede the match because he has 1 more match point than I do. It's highly unlikely that either of us were going to prize even on a win (and he in fact did not), but it was still the correct and honorable thing to do since he had a fractional better chance just off the math. Being Miracles, I am however confidant that I would have won fairly easily had we played, and would have ended 6-3-1.

Summary:

Deck's great.
Elves suck.
Bellower was amazing all weekend.
Miracles feels like a bye.

My rust definitely caused some issues throughout the day. Games were occasionally slightly harder than they needed to be because of my own problems. I haven't played in an event since August...I've only been able to do some light kitchen table testing with my roommate. I still don't think that Elves is even that bad of a matchup, but topdeck Natural Order always, always, always seems to happen to me, and it's very frustrating to hit that twice in the same tournament, especially because had I hit basically anything other than 2x Elves, I think I would have been in fine shape. The Grixis draw is still a bit frustrating because that one I could've definitely prevented.

Generally speaking, though, I remain confidant in this deck. It took a mountain of nonsense (some of which is, admittedly, largely self-imposed because I haven't been playing magic) for me to /not/ prize. I would happily run the list back for Baltimore or any other legacy events in the future.

Specifically because I've gotten a bunch of questions about Primeval Titan, the card is primarily in the deck for Miracles. It beats Miracles, hands down, and it's not exactly bad against most anything except for very fast decks. I mean, if you guys want to cut it, then fine -- but know that there is a reason the card is in the deck, and it's staying in mine for the foreseeable future.

So yeah. Not a bad weekend by any stretch. Combined record of matches actually played (not counting last round): 9-3-2

For the both first event I've played the deck in with more than 50 people and also the first event I've played in 2 months, that's pretty damn good, especially with two of the losses coming from topdeck Natural Order. I'm not really sure what else I can say to convince people at this point.

Extra special mention / props to Square Two, who found me and hung out with me on and off throughout the weekend. I'm glad to hear that he did well in his Sunday side event -- he was watching me and picking my brain a lot on Friday and Saturday, and it seems like that helped him convert a strong finish of his own. I look forward to reading about it!

[Scotlandr]

Alright, let's begin:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 To the Slaughter


I am sure you have been asked this before, but I wanted to confirm before I proxy up this list to give it a spin. 61 card MD is intentional, right?

Thanks for the write-up! I've been poking around for a sneak-fit list and really like this one.

[volrathxp]

@Arianhod:

Thanks so much for posting your report. I hadn't even considered using To the Slaughter. Congrats on the finish regardless, it's great seeing the deck so reasonably well. Do you think Elves is a worry we need to prepare for?

I will keep you all appraised of how the classic goes. I'm super excited to play this list now in an actual event.

[square_two]

I ran Arianrhod's list (-1 To the Slaughter, +1 Carpet of Flowers in the side) on Sunday morning for a 60-person 4-round event. Prize tickets based on match points. Really glad to have watched him play on Saturday and pick his brain. This deck has a lot of tricks to it, and I was mainly wanting to just play it more and try to speed up my decisions. Probably don't nearly the same detail as him on this small report but here goes.

Match 1 was against Stoneblade and the biggest help was that the poor guy didn't draw a single of his Brainstorms all match :cry: He was able to Thoughtseize and then Snap Thoughtseize me, but I Therapied away his two Forces in hand and then I proceeded to draw much better than him, quickly finding an answer to his Stoneforge + Batterskull. Inferno Titan comes down followed by Woodland Bellower, and he can't take the damage. Game 2 I manage to Deed away his double Stoneforge + Sword of Feast and Famine board and leave him stranded with a Batterskull in hand but only 4 lands. Bellower again provides card advantage and I'm able to assemble Sneak Attack with double activation to get in Emrakul in spite of a flashed in Clique.

Match 2 is Miracles and I keep a land-heavy hand. I'm able to get Sneak Attack in play with Sidisi in hand. Next turn sneak Sidisi, grab Emrakul, sneak Emrakul, answered with Terminus. Next turn in upkeep I Volrath Sidisi and do the same play which he concedes to. Game 2 I have a quick Carpet of Flowers + Top, and the guy is afraid to play out his island in hand which would feed me mana. I snipe a Mentor with a Thoughtseize, and slowly develop lands and a board while he refuses to play out his island in hand. He eventually puts down Rest in Peace + Peacekeeper + Energy Field but I find answers to all of those and eventually he simply can't deal with my recursive Bellower/Volrath/Phyrexian Tower board and then tutoring Inferno Titan. Think the guy really overboarded with easily answerable stuff (although I'm not sure if I should have been fearing a Helm kill) and misplayed by not playing out his hands to give him more room to interact.

I can't remember if it is the Stoneblade or the Miracles player who did not realize that they could Swords Sidisi in response to the exploit trigger...but there was a case in one of those games where the opp punted by not doing so. It's something to be aware of if you only have Sidisi in play for the trigger.

Match 3 is Eldrazi and they have a fast Chalice + spaghetti but I GSZ for Veteran, build up a board, Deed their Reshaper and Chalices, then topdeck Meren and take over the game. Game 2 the opponent mulls and I decide to risk a Veteran + double Therapy hand with not much else. They mull to 4, then turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer which locks me out of the game. Poor keep on my part...did not realize just how aggressively they would mull to a turn 1 Chalice. Game 3 the opp mulls heavily again, but I have turn 1 Vet to their turn 1 Chalice and throw away a Therapy to start getting basics. I land an Inferno Titan while they only have Thought-Knot on the field with nothing much to do.

I split with the Soldier Stompy opp for match 4, although I probably should have played it out, seems like a decent matchup thanks to Pyroclasm and Deeds.

I know I need more experience against Storm to feel comfortable, but I'm not as afraid of Miracles now as I used to be. The sideboard felt great and most decisions of what to take out as well as bring in made sense. Didn't get to cast To the Slaughter or resolve Nissa though. Personally I like 3 Carpets...if you can get out 2 against Miracles then you can quickly get to the point of hard casting Emrakul. Agreed with Arianrhod that Primeval Titan is great, alongside Phrexian Tower and Volrath's Stronghold. I'm loving the Stronghold especially.

My plan for the next couple of weeks is to test more online with this list and see how it goes. Feels like higher % of both Storm and Miracles online which should be a good gauntlet for the deck. List is difficult to pilot well and I'm slowly learning how to manage it.

[Ganfar]

@Arianhod:

Thanks so much for posting your report. I hadn't even considered using To the Slaughter. Congrats on the finish regardless, it's great seeing the deck so reasonably well. Do you think Elves is a worry we need to prepare for?

I will keep you all appraised of how the classic goes. I'm super excited to play this list now in an actual event.

What match-up do you bring in To the Slaughter? The decks you bring it in to usally don't run planeswalkers (Show and Tell, Renimator ect)

Nice report @Arianhod! I tought first 4 Sneak Attacks was one too many but it seems Sneak attack is a good wincon.

Glad to hear that you think Mircales are a good match-up. It's usally other way around.

[Navsi]

What match-up do you bring in To the Slaughter? The decks you bring it in to usally don't run planeswalkers (Show and Tell, Renimator ect)

Nice report @Arianhod! I tought first 4 Sneak Attacks was one too many but it seems Sneak attack is a good wincon.

Glad to hear that you think Mircales are a good match-up. It's usally other way around.

To The Slaughter is an instant speed answer for Marit Lage, Emrakul and Griselbrand in Jund, which is a useful thing to have. The planeswalker tagging isn't super relevant but it's just better upside than any of the other options which fulfill the same role. Being usable against miracles and occasionally getting a 2 for 1 against Shardless is imo better than costing 2 mana (Edict) or gaining life (Tribute to Hunger) which are the only other options that reliably do the same thing.

[rubblekill]

After reading the report and that miracles is a somewhat winnable match up with this version of the deck, I decided to trade some stuff into acquiring the deck online.

I have some questions though:

-Does Meren steadily belong in the maindeck or is she cuttable? I have not been playing her in my junk decks and I haven't missed her. But maybe she is essential to sneak fit? I don't know and that's why I'm asking
-How do you beat eldrazi apart from a fast sneak attack hand?
-What do you usually GSZ for and against what deck? I have tried a single match so far and I have to admit I was a bit clueless of what I was doing. Prime time is usually the first target (after the early game)?
-What nice tricks are there available with these creatures and 2T and/or SA?


The deck is very fun and in the first match I have ever played with Jund Fit I have beaten 4C delver, and I have to say: this deck is the grindiest grindfest of a deck I have ever played in my life, but I'm sure a fast SA for the win is a somewhat frequent thing?

[Navsi]

-Does Meren steadily belong in the maindeck or is she cuttable? I have not been playing her in my junk decks and I haven't missed her. But maybe she is essential to sneak fit? I don't know and that's why I'm asking
-How do you beat eldrazi apart from a fast sneak attack hand?
-What do you usually GSZ for and against what deck? I have tried a single match so far and I have to admit I was a bit clueless of what I was doing. Prime time is usually the first target (after the early game)?
-What nice tricks are there available with these creatures and 2T and/or SA?


The deck is very fun and in the first match I have ever played with Jund Fit I have beaten 4C delver, and I have to say: this deck is the grindiest grinfest of a deck I have ever played in my life, but I'm sure a fast SA for the win is a somewhat frequent thing?

- Meren is great against grindy nonwhite decks but pretty bad against Swords and Combo. I don't play her much because my meta is full of SnT / Reanimator / Lands / Miracles. She's fine but not core.
- Slamming Bellower or Thragtusk into multiple other fatties is usually good. They don't play any card advantage so trading off for their guys usually puts you ahead eventually unless you get screwed by Chalice.
- Depends on the hand. If you've got Sneak, Zenithing Empath into Bellower threatens a kill (if you play 2 Empath, which I recommend). If you're grinding a game out, Inferno Titan or equivalent is a fine line. Empath - Bellower - Empath - Inferno Titan is strong if you aren't facing down a clock. Against Aggro or tempo decks Thragtusk is naturally amazing and buys tons of time.
- Primeval Titan is good for Miracles but otherwise he's a bit on the slow side, being only a single body. Your lands give you inevitability but they don't speed your clock up.

As far as tricks go, the only thing I've personally done that's particularly interesting is I once played against a Painter player - he milled me out and tried to respond to Emrakul's trigger with Surgical Extraction, so I Sneaked an Eternal Witness, returned Emrakul to hand, keeping me protected from Grindstone while also making Emrakul next turn.

[rubblekill]

- Meren is great against grindy nonwhite decks but pretty bad against Swords and Combo. I don't play her much because my meta is full of SnT / Reanimator / Lands / Miracles. She's fine but not core.
- Slamming Bellower or Thragtusk into multiple other fatties is usually good. They don't play any card advantage so trading off for their guys usually puts you ahead eventually unless you get screwed by Chalice.
- Depends on the hand. If you've got Sneak, Zenithing Empath into Bellower threatens a kill (if you play 2 Empath, which I recommend). If you're grinding a game out, Inferno Titan or equivalent is a fine line. Empath - Bellower - Empath - Inferno Titan is strong if you aren't facing down a clock. Against Aggro or tempo decks Thragtusk is naturally amazing and buys tons of time.
- Primeval Titan is good for Miracles but otherwise he's a bit on the slow side, being only a single body. Your lands give you inevitability but they don't speed your clock up.

As far as tricks go, the only thing I've personally done that's particularly interesting is I once played against a Painter player - he milled me out and tried to respond to Emrakul's trigger with Surgical Extraction, so I Sneaked an Eternal Witness, returned Emrakul to hand, keeping me protected from Grindstone while also making Emrakul next turn.

Thanks a lot for the quick post. I'll try a second empath.
Since miracles has a staggering 19% share in the online metagame I think I'll keep Prime Time.
I'd like to play a Kessig along with it but with a Grove manabase I don't think it is affordable

E: I'm not convinced on the Eldrazi part of your post though :P Playing junk eldrazi is a quite easy match up in my opinion, but in Jund decays and shocks seem bad while we slowly try to ramp and they cheat 4/4 and 5/5 at the same time; and no PtE.

[Navsi]

E: I'm not convinced on the Eldrazi part of your post though :P Playing junk eldrazi is a quite easy match up in my opinion, but in Jund decays and shocks seem bad while we slowly try to ramp and they cheat 4/4 and 5/5 at the same time; and no PtE.

Game 1 they don't have Warping Wail, so make Veteran Explorer and they can't deal with him without you getting close to stabilizing if you have any relevant cards in hand.

Game 2/3 you've sided out Fires and maybe Decays for more relevant removal / interaction anyway.

I don't have many Eldrazi players near me though, so my opponents might just be bad / inexperienced against Sneak-Fit which isn't exactly holding a large share of the meta game.

[Zirath]

Arian and I talked about this over the weekend but based on his result, we aren't sure if the Grixis match up is good. It appears tremendously harder for this deck than other flavors were and that may be due to Cabal Therapy. It definitely messed things up. Anyone who gets a chance to test should try to get some games against Grixis. Pretty important to know the state of the match up.

[Brael]

Arian and I talked about this over the weekend but based on his result, we aren't sure if the Grixis match up is good. It appears tremendously harder for this deck than other flavors were and that may be due to Cabal Therapy. It definitely messed things up. Anyone who gets a chance to test should try to get some games against Grixis. Pretty important to know the state of the match up.

For what it's worth, I've run into the same issue. When I tested Sneak Fit it was Grixis Delver that I played against, and I went something like 1-8 against it (2 preboard, 7 postboard games). Also, while not Sneak Fit, the build I've been playing has been wrecked by Cabal Therapy a couple times. The best name against me is Sensei's Divining Top, and a few of my opponents have caught on to that. What I noticed with Grixis is that with their filtering they can pretty easily put together the Probe/Therapy combo which is extra hard to deal with.

I've been thinking about ways to deal with this. One idea that's been bouncing around in my head is a UG/x build using Perilous Research as the sac engine alongside Chalice on 1, and even some Cavern of Souls to cast our own guys through Chalice. The idea is still more conceptual than having a list though. I haven't even figured out the third color yet.

Another thing I've considered (and actually tried) is using my Cabal Therapy to name Cabal Therapy but I've had mixed results there. I do think Grixis would see better results against us though if they used Thoughtseize over Therapy. We're actually weak to discard. My league match this week is against Grixis Delver so I'll get a bit more practice at it probably between that and 2/8 or more of the Thursday night Legacy field being Grixis Delver though that will be with my build rather than Sneak.

Also, is anyone going to be at the Classic in Columbus? Still trying to figure out if I can make it, but I really want to give SE Fit a spin in a real tournament. I don't think anyone has done so yet and given what SCG posted today about future events, it doesn't look like I'll have all that many chances.

[Echelon]

Awesome reports. Congrats on the results!

[Hodgkins]

Sorry for asking, but what's SE Fit? I've seen it mentioned here a while back.

[Navsi]

Sorry for asking, but what's SE Fit? I've seen it mentioned here a while back.

It's basically a build which is a lot heavier on card selection and consistency tools, in an effort to mitigate the issues we get from not having Brainstorm. There was some maths done about 50-100 pages back which was trying to work out optimal number of lands/threats/ramp/removal/draw/filtering/etc but the end result was pretty much the same as what we already were using so it didn't actually result in a deck particularly different from other Nic Fit lists.

[Echelon]

Sorry for asking, but what's SE Fit? I've seen it mentioned here a while back.

SE is short for Systems Engineering. It was an effort we did a while back. The aim was to create a requirements based Junk Fit list. The result was quite lean but had no room for the juicy stuff we like to play in this deck. As a result, people simply didn't want to play it.

@Navsi: The list had more ramp any of us was comfortable playing, amongst other things.

It was a very nice exercise in card evaluation though.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianhod:

Thanks so much for posting your report. I hadn't even considered using To the Slaughter. Congrats on the finish regardless, it's great seeing the deck so reasonably well. Do you think Elves is a worry we need to prepare for?

I will keep you all appraised of how the classic goes. I'm super excited to play this list now in an actual event.

Elves is something I am personally terrified of, as a pilot. If I had $5 for every time that Elves topdecks Natural Order with no cards in hand/limited board state and kills me the turn before I was going to kill them, across multiple versions of the deck and multiple years of playing, I would probably have a second Black Lotus. I think that on an average Elves draw, Sneak is actually favored or at the very least, it's a coin flip. Both decks typically kill uninterrupted on turn 3/4 or so. Elves is a little more likely to kill on turn 2, and they're a little more comboriffic than we are, but we have piles of interaction and can usually slow them down. I think I'm 2-2 vs Elves total with Sneak now...beat it twice at Mythics, then lost to it twice. When they don't rip N.O., it seems like a fine matchup. The problem is that we have no way of stopping them from casting N.O., and we never will. It's why Elves is typically good vs nonblue nonstorm decks.


What match-up do you bring in To the Slaughter? The decks you bring it in to usally don't run planeswalkers (Show and Tell, Renimator ect)

Nice report @Arianhod! I tought first 4 Sneak Attacks was one too many but it seems Sneak attack is a good wincon.

Glad to hear that you think Mircales are a good match-up. It's usally other way around.

To the Slaughter is for Miracles, Eldrazi, and Lands -- it can also come in vs some other decks that are a bit more fringe. I don't know if I would bring it in vs Reanimator. Probably, but I wouldn't be happy about it. Don't forget, To the Slaughter is basically a split card that reads:

When you resolve To the Slaughter, choose a mode:

-) Target player sacrifices a creature
-) Target player sacrifices a planeswalker

If Delirium (rarely happens), do both.

Vs Miracles (or Shardless, I suppose), you want it because you can engineer a board state wherein they have to sacrfice their Jace/Lily/etc. Vs Eldrazi, you want to hit Smasher with it ideally, although TKS is fine too. Vs Lands, Merit Lage is obviously the pick.


After reading the report and that miracles is a somewhat winnable match up with this version of the deck, I decided to trade some stuff into acquiring the deck online.

I have some questions though:

-Does Meren steadily belong in the maindeck or is she cuttable? I have not been playing her in my junk decks and I haven't missed her. But maybe she is essential to sneak fit? I don't know and that's why I'm asking
-How do you beat eldrazi apart from a fast sneak attack hand?
-What do you usually GSZ for and against what deck? I have tried a single match so far and I have to admit I was a bit clueless of what I was doing. Prime time is usually the first target (after the early game)?
-What nice tricks are there available with these creatures and 2T and/or SA?


The deck is very fun and in the first match I have ever played with Jund Fit I have beaten 4C delver, and I have to say: this deck is the grindiest grindfest of a deck I have ever played in my life, but I'm sure a fast SA for the win is a somewhat frequent thing?

I've come to the opinion that Meren isn't a staple of the list. I personally do still love having her a lot, but she's not as core as I once thought she was. She's at her best atm vs Eldrazi, where she's just flat broken, but she's also very situationally good. A lot of using Meren comes down to engineering the correct board state to allow her to take over the game, which usually involves both realizing and executing a need to begin setup often as much as 4 turns before you're actually going to put Meren out.

As for Eldrazi, again, Meren is really good, especially if you can find Thragtusk to go with her to keep Smasher under control. Otherwise, you have the ability to sweep them with Deed and watch as they flood out, or just put out a Titan and watch them be completely unable to answer it. Sneak+Momma is definitely how you win...Meren, Thrag, Deed, and Titans are how you don't lose.

Primeval is a good target, as is Bellower. If you're set up for Meren you can start that chugging. Generally speaking, the GSZ decision tree goes like this:

Is it early game?
-If yes, grab Explorer or Deathrite, depending on opponent and number of fetches/wastelands. If vs Miracles or Stoneblade, or if Deathrite is unlikely to live and you need the ramp, grab Sakura.
-If no, next
Is it middle game?
-If yes, and you have a Sneak Attack, grab Fierce Empath for
-If vs Miracles, Primeval Titan, else
-If vs anything else, Emrakul
-If yes, and you don't have a Sneak Attack,
-Evaluate for Meren
-Evaluate for Eternal Witness
-Thragtusk is the generic go-to in absence of better options, unless you're going to have another land to wait for late game /or/ you're going to have time to wait
-If no, then next
Is it late game?
-If yes, and you have a Sneak Attack, grab Bellower for Empath for Emrakul or Inferno
-If yes, and you don't have a Sneak Attack, grab Bellower for Empath for Primeval or Inferno.
If no, then next
Is it ultra late game?
If yes, then Empath for Emrakul, and cast Emrakul.

It's still debatable if we need a second Empath. A second Empath basically opens up the line of Empathing for Bellower for Empath 2 for Emrakul/Titans. That being said, I never once had this come up or be relevant on the weekend. The only time it was sort of relevant and I sort of wished I had a second Empath was the draw vs Grixis, and that was entirely my own fault and avoidable.

As far as nice tricks...I can't really tell you anything too specific there that I haven't already reported in my posts. Just play the deck and keep your mind open and your options flexible. There's a lot of sweet stuff you can do, especially with Sneak -- it opens up a lot of truly disgusting timing breaks. Sneaking Rec Sage in response to a tapped Top/draw is one of my favorites. Just try to evaluate the board and what cards you have open. Sometimes it's correct to Sneak Thrag, sometimes it's correct to just play him. Etc. Everything is situational and changes on a by-turn basis.


For what it's worth, I've run into the same issue. When I tested Sneak Fit it was Grixis Delver that I played against, and I went something like 1-8 against it (2 preboard, 7 postboard games). Also, while not Sneak Fit, the build I've been playing has been wrecked by Cabal Therapy a couple times. The best name against me is Sensei's Divining Top, and a few of my opponents have caught on to that. What I noticed with Grixis is that with their filtering they can pretty easily put together the Probe/Therapy combo which is extra hard to deal with.

I've been thinking about ways to deal with this. One idea that's been bouncing around in my head is a UG/x build using Perilous Research as the sac engine alongside Chalice on 1, and even some Cavern of Souls to cast our own guys through Chalice. The idea is still more conceptual than having a list though. I haven't even figured out the third color yet.

Another thing I've considered (and actually tried) is using my Cabal Therapy to name Cabal Therapy but I've had mixed results there. I do think Grixis would see better results against us though if they used Thoughtseize over Therapy. We're actually weak to discard. My league match this week is against Grixis Delver so I'll get a bit more practice at it probably between that and 2/8 or more of the Thursday night Legacy field being Grixis Delver though that will be with my build rather than Sneak.

Also, is anyone going to be at the Classic in Columbus? Still trying to figure out if I can make it, but I really want to give SE Fit a spin in a real tournament. I don't think anyone has done so yet and given what SCG posted today about future events, it doesn't look like I'll have all that many chances.

Discard is definitely something of a problem, I think, although Cabal Therapy is specifically a bigger problem than Thoughtseize is. I haven't been bringing in Surgical vs Grixis because I couldn't find two more cards I wanted to cut, but I think that's increasingly incorrect -- even if I end up having to cut something I really don't want to, I think the Surgicals are just that important vs Delver, for the information as well as hitting their Bolts and Therapies.

This is the first day in testing or play that I actually had any kind of an issue with Grixis, though, and others have reported beating it with little difficulty, so I think that it was probably just more of a case that the first Grixis guy drew really well and I drew really poorly (which happens sometimes), and that the second is, as I've said, basically my fault. I could've taken a different line and been perfectly fine vs 2nd Grixis, or, even on the line I chose, I could've, you know, NOT screwed up with the Empath sacrifice. I can be salty about not finding a way to kill him over 8 turns of Topping and shuffling all I want, but at the end of the day, the decisions I made prior to that point put me in the spot to receive the bad variance, so I chalk that one up to me.

[rubblekill]

Wow, nice post. That GSZ "tutorial" is exactly what I was looking for :D

[Navsi]

When you resolve To the Slaughter, choose a mode:

-) Target player sacrifices a creature
-) Target player sacrifices a planeswalker

It's still debatable if we need a second Empath. A second Empath basically opens up the line of Empathing for Bellower for Empath 2 for Emrakul/Titans. That being said, I never once had this come up or be relevant on the weekend. The only time it was sort of relevant and I sort of wished I had a second Empath was the draw vs Grixis, and that was entirely my own fault and avoidable.

To The Slaughter is occasionally slightly worse than that, since if your Shardless opponent makes Deathrite into Liliana, for example, you can't take Lili out unless you have Delirium.

I personally really like the second Empath. It's not a card you are ever particularly unhappy to have in hand, and having it in hand is significantly better than Zenithing for it since it gives you good odds of being able to Emrakul the turn you actually cast Sneak rather than the turn after. The Bellower line is one I also quite like, since it lets you Empath for value midgame without making your zeniths and bellower(s) unable to get Emrakul in the endgame.

[Brael]

Sorry for asking, but what's SE Fit? I've seen it mentioned here a while back.

It's a build we tried that was able to mimic the consistency of blue decks, having just as much card selection and card advantage. On those metrics it succeeded, but it requires a different sort of build and has little room for the fat that most people like to play so it's not all that popular. The version I've been playing has since morphed, because Dark Confidant has proven to work so well in it, the curve has had a lot of focus on minimizing it, which has removed almost all the big stuff and most people are playing the deck in order to play big stuff.

[Hmmm_Really?]

To The Slaughter is occasionally slightly worse than that, since if your Shardless opponent makes Deathrite into Liliana, for example, you can't take Lili out unless you have Delirium.


'To the Slaughter' Oracle text: "Target player sacrifices a creature or planeswalker.
Delirium — If there are four or more card types among cards in your graveyard, instead that player sacrifices a creature and a planeswalker."

I can choose?

[CptHaddock]

'To the Slaughter' Oracle text: "Target player sacrifices a creature or planeswalker.
Delirium — If there are four or more card types among cards in your graveyard, instead that player sacrifices a creature and a planeswalker."

I can choose?

Nope it's not modal, your opponent can either sacrifice a creature or a planeswalker. If you have delirium they have to sacrifice a creature AND a planeswalker.

[Navsi]

You rarely face down both at the same time. The only deck where it comes up much is Shardless, but in that matchup the game normally goes on long enough for Delirium to come online anyway.

[gth842s]

Hello all, long-time lurker / occasional poster back from the dead. I've had a chance to jam some games with various Junk Fit lists here at weeklies in Seattle and wanted to report on a card that has been great in testing. Kambal, Consul of Allocation has won me every game against Storm that he's come down. He's somewhat narrow, and he's been mixed in play against miracles (but then, each card that eats an StP makes your bigger guys more likely to hang around), but if anyone sees a lot of Storm I strongly recommend giving him a try. Alongside Gaddock Teeg he more or less shuts them out of the game.

Similarly, Kaya, Ghost Assassin has been surprisingly good against value fair decks and Miracles. She looks cute or win-more, but I've found the flexibility you get is huge. Having your opponent discard for you to draw is the safe / fair option, but I've also used her to close down opposing goyfs, blinked witness / rhino / thragtusk / primeval titan, and blinked an ulamog to keep it from attacking vs. eldrazi (allowing me to attack back for the win).

Both cards are likely garbage in the Sneak Fit lists that are popular right now, but for those playing Junk I thought I'd report on my results.

[Hodgkins]

@gth842s: Kaya seems interesting, which walker did you cut to make room for her?

Also is Kambal in the main? My only complaint is that he isn't tutorable. How do you get him out when you need to?
Seems like a house vs storm and can play the long game with miracles. Definitely better than teeg vs miracles who'd just eat an stp.

[gth842s]

@gth842s: Kaya seems interesting, which walker did you cut to make room for her?

Also is Kambal in the main? My only complaint is that he isn't tutorable. How do you get him out when you need to?
Seems like a house vs storm and can play the long game with miracles. Definitely better than teeg vs miracles who'd just eat an stp.

I actually put a Kaya in a flex spot that has waffled between an extra rhino, Meren, and a Garruk Relentless. As I ran the list that day, I was running 1x Rhino, 1x Kaya, 1x Garruk Relentless.

I should've specified: Kambal was in my sideboard for combo and miracles.

[Echelon]

I should've specified: Kambal was in my sideboard for combo and miracles.

Did you try Lost Legacy? It's good in the same (and more) MUs and actually solves problems rather than just slow them down, for the same 3 mana.

[sdematt]

Just popping in to say hi, and miss you guys.

[Echelon]

Just popping in to say hi, and miss you guys.

What's keeping you so busy?

[truthfulcake]

Hello all, long-time lurker / occasional poster back from the dead. I've had a chance to jam some games with various Junk Fit lists here at weeklies in Seattle and wanted to report on a card that has been great in testing. Kambal, Consul of Allocation has won me every game against Storm that he's come down. He's somewhat narrow, and he's been mixed in play against miracles (but then, each card that eats an StP makes your bigger guys more likely to hang around), but if anyone sees a lot of Storm I strongly recommend giving him a try. Alongside Gaddock Teeg he more or less shuts them out of the game.
Wouldn't Gaddock Teeg be just all round better against Storm? Both say 'Storm can't win this game', but Gaddock is tutorable off GSZ, Kambal is not. Gaddock off a GSZ is a Turn 3 play, same as Kambal most of the time. I'm always hesitant to put non-green creatures into Nic Fit anyway, since the deck revolves around GSZ so much. At least the Junk one does in my experience.

[gth842s]

Did you try Lost Legacy? It's good in the same (and more) MUs and actually solves problems rather than just slow them down, for the same 3 mana.

Yup! I run one of each. I haven't had the opportunity to cast LL yet.

Kambal, for sure, is just a speed bump against miracles, although in my games against miracles every point of damage does matter. He's also a way to improve the 3-drop spot against a lot of miscellaneous matchups. He buys you time against something like Delver, speeds up your clock against infect, and must be killed by burn - they won't always have or be running a lot of searing blaze / blood. Kambal similarly demands an answer from storm - they can't win through him and teeg together (often, they can't win through either alone). I wouldn't bring in LL for any of those matchups but storm, but Kambal improves my 3 spot where I can take out something durdly like Nissa.

It's probably meta dependent, too. One of the two stores I play in weeklies at always has a few burn players in the room.

[Navsi]

Wouldn't Gaddock Teeg be just all round better against Storm? Both say 'Storm can't win this game', but Gaddock is tutorable off GSZ, Kambal is not. Gaddock off a GSZ is a Turn 3 play, same as Kambal most of the time. I'm always hesitant to put non-green creatures into Nic Fit anyway, since the deck revolves around GSZ so much. At least the Junk one does in my experience.

I can see Kambal being potentially better there because he also drains them for 2 whenever they cantrip, which means they also have trouble digging for an answer to him so they can actually go off.

Not being green is a real downside though. If anyone ever gets Delirium / Traverse the Ulvenwald working, we're going to have to re-evaluate so many cards..

[truthfulcake]

Yup! I run one of each. I haven't had the opportunity to cast LL yet.

Kambal, for sure, is just a speed bump against miracles, although in my games against miracles every point of damage does matter. He's also a way to improve the 3-drop spot against a lot of miscellaneous matchups. He buys you time against something like Delver, speeds up your clock against infect, and must be killed by burn - they won't always have or be running a lot of searing blaze / blood. Kambal similarly demands an answer from storm - they can't win through him and teeg together (often, they can't win through either alone). I wouldn't bring in LL for any of those matchups but storm, but Kambal improves my 3 spot where I can take out something durdly like Nissa.

It's probably meta dependent, too. One of the two stores I play in weeklies at always has a few burn players in the room.
I didn't think about Kambal like that. I've got an event on the weekend I'm going to that's no proxies, so I'll throw in Kambal instead of one of the few proxies I've got left and report back. Solid points though.



I can see Kambal being potentially better there because he also drains them for 2 whenever they cantrip, which means they also have trouble digging for an answer to him so they can actually go off.

Not being green is a real downside though. If anyone ever gets Delirium / Traverse the Ulvenwald working, we're going to have to re-evaluate so many cards..
I never thought of Traverse in Nic Fit, I always saw GSZ as better 90% of the time. It would be better than Eldritch Evolution in this deck though, and I already really like EE in this deck (When it doesn't get countered, then its a blowout)

Flashback and Delirium feel like a bit of a non-bo together though. You can get a sorcery, land and creature in the yard by Turn 2 (Vet, fetch, Cabal until it's flashed back), and can reasonably get any of the remaining types with an instant or popping a Deed. It'd be cool, but I'm just not sure the deck would be better off with it.

[Navsi]

Flashback and Delirium feel like a bit of a non-bo together though. You can get a sorcery, land and creature in the yard by Turn 2 (Vet, fetch, Cabal until it's flashed back), and can reasonably get any of the remaining types with an instant or popping a Deed. It'd be cool, but I'm just not sure the deck would be better off with it.

The Delirium builds I've tried have run Baleful Strix, lots of fetchlands, and more 1-for-1 removal spells like Decay. Traverse does still get you a basic if you don't have delirium, which isn't great but it can be enough to get you going and casting your relevant cards. It makes you more vulnerable to Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void, but it does give you some silly Eternal Witness play lines.

[Brael]

2 more weeks into my League down. 5 weeks done so I'm at the length of a typical MTGO league. Seems like a good spot to give a longer report on it. Too much time has passed for me to give round by rounds though.

So far I've played against BW Pox, 2x Grixis Delver, Miracles, and what was listed as Dragon Stompy but is really closer to Goblin Control (similar list to what did well at Eternal Weekend).

My current standing is 4-1 in matches and 9-4 in games. Due to our point system (we're allowing proxies, but you get some bonus points for owning your deck in paper) this puts me in either first or second place. My one loss was to Grixis Delver. All in all I'm pretty happy with the performance so far.

Lots of little things have won me games. Dark Confidant is directly responsible for 3 wins, which is why after the league I think I'm going to drop Tracker #2 and put in Bob #3. Also, the Cavern of Souls plan has been phenomenal. I've been using it as Chalice hate and it has definitely delivered. While not every card I play is a Human, enough are that Chalice can't always lock me out, and it has random other names as well, like being able to play a giant Endless One against Delver through their Force of Will in hand (came up for me in round 5). Given the popularity of Chalice decks I think it's something others should look into. Humans probably have the most variety but I could see a BUG build making use of some Elves. In addition to Chalice it's also pretty nice to have Cavern as another way to deal with Counterbalance.

In the last 2 or 3 rounds Mentor hasn't come up and it's something I want more data on. I keep siding them out in games 2 and 3. It's a card that has a pretty wide range. When it's good it's great, but when it's bad it's really bad. That said, I have yet to lose a game where I got a Mentor online, but the same goes for Bob and Tracker.

[sdematt]

What's keeping you so busy?

School and vintage Ferraris. I was actually going to come to the NL to pick up a car, but the deal fell through a few days ago. Brutal.

[Echelon]

It's probably meta dependent, too. One of the two stores I play in weeklies at always has a few burn players in the room.

Sounds like good times!


If anyone ever gets Delirium / Traverse the Ulvenwald working, we're going to have to re-evaluate so many cards..

OMG yes. But let's hold off on that for now - I just got a set of foil GSZs.


School and vintage Ferraris. I was actually going to come to the NL to pick up a car, but the deal fell through a few days ago. Brutal.

Ah, the rough life of a rockstar. If it's of any consolation - your tales entertain me to no end.

[fireiced]

@ Arianrhod, Great brewing and equally awesome results! Been away since we last chat on the Scapewish days as I was aiming for Judge L2. Got L2 a year ago and judging PPTQ, RPTQ & GPs took a lot of my time from competitive Legacy magic.

Anyways a question, how do we board again ANT and Show & Tell variants? Seems like we hinging a lot of the strength of our blind therapies?:really:

[Navsi]

Anyways a question, how do we board again ANT and Show & Tell variants? Seems like we hinging a lot of the strength of our blind therapies?:really:

Out: Decays, dorky creatures that don't provide a clock. Path/spotremoval gets cut against Storm. Deed gets cut against Show & Tell but stays in against Storm for Empty/Mentor

In: Hand disruption, Extraction effects, Hatebears. Needle if we saw Sneak Attack or Griselbrand.

With the current build I'm using, I'd go:
S&T (assuming Sneak/Griselbrand/Emrakul):
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Thragtusk
-2 Deed
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 To The Slaughter
Leaving Needle out because the list plays its own copies of Sneak Attack. Against Omni-tell, leave To The Slaughter out and put in Golgari Charm instead.

Against Storm:
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Reclamation Sage
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Slaughter Games

Slaughter Games can be Lost Legacy if you're not in Red. To The Slaughter probably isn't necessary if you have Swords/Path, so can become Pithing Needle or Teeg/Containment Priest or something.

[Brael]

Not being green is a real downside though. If anyone ever gets Delirium / Traverse the Ulvenwald working, we're going to have to re-evaluate so many cards..

I think the key to getting Traverse to work is not using black. Flashback on Therapy taking a sorcery out of your graveyard is a big downside. In GU/x we have Perilous Research to sacrifice a permanent, to get 2 in the GY for Traverse which also opens up the Traverse/Snap/Traverse line which is slightly stronger than Traverse/EW/Traverse since it's a mana less.

Perhaps a RUG build that could use a punishing fire engine (and maybe Crack the Earth) alongside the better grinding power of Traverse?

[Navsi]

I think the key to getting Traverse to work, is not using black. Flashback on Therapy taking a sorcery out of your graveyard is a big downside. In GU/x we have Perilous Research to sacrifice a permanent, to get 2 in the GY for Traverse which also opens up the Traverse/Snap/Traverse line which is slightly stronger than Traverse/EW/Traverse since it's a mana less.

Perhaps a RUG build that could use a punishing fire engine (and maybe Crack the Earth) alongside the better grinding power of Traverse?

Black mana gives us Baleful Strix which is great for enabling Traverse, though. I wouldn't be surprised if a Traverse build ended up being in four colours.

[Brael]

Black mana gives us Baleful Strix which is great for enabling Traverse, though. I wouldn't be surprised if a Traverse build ended up being in four colours.

Strix is ok for enabling but it's not necessary. Architects of Will can be enabled with just blue (and just treated as a cantrip). I could see red being good here or I could see white being good... there's a lot of strong white cards these days that are just in need of some tutoring. I actually think Strix is sort of bad as an enabler because StP, DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Council's Judgment, and others are so effective at keeping it out of the GY to count as 2 types.

I'm pretty skeptical of 4 color decks.

Red actually has some good Delirium enablers like Pyrite Spellbomb and Seal of Fire, in addition to Architects out of Blue. FoW and Daze are good enablers too as is Courser in Green.

[Ulysse95]

But in green you have access to shardless agent who do basically the same job CA/delirium engineering than strix. And who's greatly stronger with traverse than gsz (obviously).

In blue, perilous research can be completed with read the runes (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte.php?ref=16c095) which can be more polyvalent and definitely a great delirium friend

[Brael]

But in green you have access to shardless agent who do basically the same job CA/delirium engineering than strix. And who's greatly stronger with traverse than gsz (obviously).

In blue, perilous research can be completed with read the runes (http://www.magic-ville.com/fr/carte.php?ref=16c095) which can be more polyvalent and definitely a great delirium friend

Read the Runes could be interesting, but I think it plays bad with Shardless Agent.

[square_two]

Red actually has some good Delirium enablers like Pyrite Spellbomb and Seal of Fire, in addition to Architects out of Blue. FoW and Daze are good enablers too as is Courser in Green.

There are a surprising number of creative ways to hit delirium...you mention Seal of Fire, but Tarfire or the other Tribal cards could also help. I'm assuming that such a build would have even MORE one-ofs than usual just to diversify what gets into the grave.

The payoff of tutoring non-green creatures (or any land) really has to be high in order to be worth the risk of being a lot weaker to graveyard-hating cards that everyone has in their side. Maybe all it takes is a dedicated BUG list with tons of card draw or advantage in order to help offset the loss of how steady GSZ is.

[Brael]

There are a surprising number of creative ways to hit delirium...you mention Seal of Fire, but Tarfire or the other Tribal cards could also help. I'm assuming that such a build would have even MORE one-ofs than usual just to diversify what gets into the grave.

The payoff of tutoring non-green creatures (or any land) really has to be high in order to be worth the risk of being a lot weaker to graveyard-hating cards that everyone has in their side. Maybe all it takes is a dedicated BUG list with tons of card draw or advantage in order to help offset the loss of how steady GSZ is.

Tarfire is another one. Red splashes are easily able to provide artifacts, enchantments, and tribal which makes them pretty ideal for delirium. That gives you RG, but I kind of think blue is better than black here as the other color, because Cabal Therapy doesn't play well with delirium, and gaining blue gives you counterspells which also free pitch for instants.

I have some experience with RUG Delver in Modern, which I played Traverse in, so that might be part of my bias here, and I have some sort of idea of what worked in that sort of build.

[Arianrhod]

You still need to solve the enormous problems of Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace if you want to go down this road.

[Navsi]

I don't think RIP is that much of an issue unless you're running a lot of other graveyard synergy.

As far as Deathrite goes, we have two options. Run more non creature/instant/sorcery/land cards - like Liliana of the Veil, Bitterblossom, Oaths and similar - or run a ton of DRS removal. A list with lots of copies of Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decays might be able to deal with Deathrite by just killing them repeatedly.

[Brael]

You still need to solve the enormous problems of Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace if you want to go down this road.

DRS is easy. Punishing Fire kills him as does Tarfire, Seal of Fire, and Spellbomb all of which you want to enable Delirium anyways.

RIP is harder.

Would Keranos be a powerful enough finisher to grab with Traverse or would a Huntmaster be better? Part of me likes how compact the Huntmaster combo is, at 4 mana per turn over 2 turns. It's fairly easy to deploy.

T1 - Traverse, get Snapcaster, play Snapcaster, flashback Traverse, get Huntmaster of the Fells
T2 - Play Huntmaster of the Fells

3 bodies out of one card is usually enough to swing a game.

[MDHackbert]

I picked up Crack the Earths last Monday because I was thinking of brainstorming a RG list, or perhaps Jund now that I have Groves and Lilis. I am interested in where this discussion goes. Hopefully non-blue since I don't have blue duals.

[Brael]

Just played the local legacy night. Easily my worst night in months, I thought I was above going on tilt, but apparently bad enough variance can still trigger it. I'm glad it didn't count towards the league.

Round 1 against Goblins. I lose 0-2. Lose game 1 to a T1 Rabblemaster, T2 Chalice for 2
Round 2 against Shardless BUG. Game 1 I lost to 4 resolved Ancestral Visions by turn 7 or 8, including 2 that resolved off blind flips on Shardless Agent. I very nearly kept up on cards, but Visions #4 proved to be too much. Game 2 went for 35 minutes roughly, it started on me keeping a mulligan to 3, and I managed to grind it out. My version is definitely worse against Shardless than the typical Junk list but I can still get there. Round 3 began with 53 seconds left on the clock, I had an amazing hand that could probably win on turn 4 or 5, but I only got to turn 3. 1-1-1
Round 3 was against Dragon Stompy. I lose 0-2.

Overall a pretty bad night at 1-5-1 in games. I would give more details but I got pretty frustrated with myself in round 1 because I knew I was making misplays in the games, but I couldn't seem to identify where I was doing so. That lead to me making other bad plays throughout the night and the whole thing ended with an opponent on the play in round 3 game 3 that opened Ancient Tomb, Simian Spirit Guide, Magus of the Moon... to my Windswept Heath, Verdant Catacombs, Noble Hierarch, Deathrite Shaman, 2x Green Sun's Zenith, Plains. Pretty fitting end to the night.


I picked up Crack the Earths last Monday because I was thinking of brainstorming a RG list, or perhaps Jund now that I have Groves and Lilis. I am interested in where this discussion goes. Hopefully non-blue since I don't have blue duals.

I've been thinking today about this. Definitely interested in green/red here. I've thought of the Perilous Research route in RUG but when I went over it in my head this is how the theory worked out for me.
Cabal Therapy is usually worth 2.5 cards in my experience (doesn't always hit, but sometimes gets doubles). Then the flashback is also worth 2 cards off of a sacrificed Veteran. In the end it's a 4.5 card swing. Perilous Research though is only worth 4 cards. So the black advantage is greater than the blue advantage.

Also, I was thinking that Young Pyromancer could be key here. I'm still a fan of the low to the ground, high velocity builds. Therapy produces 2 tokens to Researchs 1, and does so at a mana less. Also, black leaves open the option of Bob, which is amazing in these sorts of builds.

So, I was thinking something focused on getting the best Therapys possible. Probably around the range of 24 lands, 18 creatures 19 others. The downside to this is that 19 spells isn't really enough to get Pyromancer value. So I was thinking the Punishing Fire engine could augment it. This is what I have for a first draft, still needs more work. And as you can see in the list it's in my style of low cost/high velocity over high cost beaters.

Something like this
Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dualcaster Mage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells

Spells 19
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Crack the Earth
2 Tarfire
2 Seal of Fire
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Sensei's Divining Top

The only issue is, it feels like it needs some Abrupt Decay somewhere in there and 4 Gitaxian Probes would be nice.

[MDHackbert]

Anytime I see Pyrite, it makes me yearn for Bomberman. Transforming into a different GY strategy is usually not advisable though.

[fireiced]

Out: Decays, dorky creatures that don't provide a clock. Path/spotremoval gets cut against Storm. Deed gets cut against Show & Tell but stays in against Storm for Empty/Mentor

In: Hand disruption, Extraction effects, Hatebears. Needle if we saw Sneak Attack or Griselbrand.

With the current build I'm using, I'd go:
S&T (assuming Sneak/Griselbrand/Emrakul):
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Thragtusk
-2 Deed
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 To The Slaughter
Leaving Needle out because the list plays its own copies of Sneak Attack. Against Omni-tell, leave To The Slaughter out and put in Golgari Charm instead.

Against Storm:
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Reclamation Sage
-2 Punishing Fire
-2 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Slaughter Games

Slaughter Games can be Lost Legacy if you're not in Red. To The Slaughter probably isn't necessary if you have Swords/Path, so can become Pithing Needle or Teeg/Containment Priest or something.

Currently running Arianrhod's 61 mb Sneaky Fit list. Where do you get the space for 1 off MB Reclamation Sage? I have also cut the 4th Sneak Attack to go down to 60 cards, not very sure if this is the correct cut.:really:

I am still on the Diabolic Edit / Dreadbore 1:1 split instead of TTS simply due to casting cost. I want to pay for Daze vs Reanimator.

[Echelon]

@Brael: Grove of the Burnwillows, but no Punishing Fire? Seems like an odd choice. You could drop down to 21/22 land and slot in 2/3 Gitaxian Probe. And perhaps drop Crack the Earth for Probe no. 3/4. The list is incredibly light on meat though.

Oh, and (to make things worse) Traverse seems like a very fun card to loop around w/ Meren + Eternal Witness + sac outlet. Or, you know, Meren + Eternal Witness + Perilous Research. Also seems like a neat little loop.

[Navsi]

Currently running Arianrhod's 61 mb Sneaky Fit list. Where do you get the space for 1 off MB Reclamation Sage? I have also cut the 4th Sneak Attack to go down to 60 cards, not very sure if this is the correct cut.:really:

I am still on the Diabolic Edit / Dreadbore 1:1 split instead of TTS simply due to casting cost. I want to pay for Daze vs Reanimator.

I'm on 61 cards, and the cut I made is Meren I believe. Griselbrand becomes a Woodland Bellower, and I think I'm running one fewer Punishing Fire to make room for the second Fierce Empath.

I find Reanimator usually boards Daze out against us. I like TTS because instant speed is so good against Infect and Lands, I can see the argument for Diabolic Edict though.

[rubblekill]

From my (limited compared to yours) experience I have found sidisi lacklustre: against fast decks he is slow, otherwise he has a nice effect (of course) but that is quite fragile: removal in response to his ability is a blowout, and its not like jund has a broad board presence. Maybe I'm playing the deck wrong? I'm still new to playing with mountains

[Navsi]

I haven't played enough with Sidisi to judge her well. She's a fifth copy of Sneak Attack which is pretty good, but she's definitely in the 3 or so cards I would drop first.

[Echelon]

I'm still new to playing with mountains

His new breast friends!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[rubblekill]

For now I haven't been particularly impressed by Sidisi and Meren. Sidisi for the reason I have written above, and meren because I don't like her that much in a field full of DRS (nice format: counterbalance vs DRS + AD).

I'm gonna play with them more to gain some more experience with the deck and to understand your deck building decisions, before deciding that I'm so smarter than you guys that I'm gonna modify the list you have brewed and I have been playing for only a couple of days.

In case it was needed (it wasn't): /s

[AtticusBlaqk]

For now I haven't been particularly impressed by Sidisi and Meren. Sidisi for the reason I have written above, and meren because I don't like her that much in a field full of DRS (nice format: counterbalance vs DRS + AD).

I'm gonna play with them more to gain some more experience with the deck and to understand your deck building decisions, before deciding that I'm so smarter than you guys that I'm gonna modify the list you have brewed and I have been playing for only a couple of days.

In case it was needed (it wasn't): /s

I have found that Meren is really strong against Shardless Sultai. She is difficult for them to remove and can be managed to combat an active Liliana.


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[rubblekill]

I have found that Meren is really strong against Shardless Sultai. She is difficult for them to remove and can be managed to combat an active Liliana.


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Oh, I know that very well, when she is good she is the best card ever. I played her a lot.
The problem is the inconsistency of a 4 mana legend that relies on the absence from the board of a 1 mana card. A 1 mana dork that is prevalent in the format and makes me not want to play meren.
I know that we have plenty of tools to remove drs, but if I have to rely on another card to gain value from meren, at that point I'd rather play a more impactful card.
Against shardless, for example, we can play cards that say "I win immediately if I resolve" like Sigarda or the underplayed Elspeth sun's champion.
In jund I like her even less because there's no recurring of rhinos potential.
Anyways this is merely my opinion, there are people more experienced than me that will say otherwise

[Ganfar]

I have found that Meren is really strong against Shardless Sultai. She is difficult for them to remove and can be managed to combat an active Liliana.


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And it's the only deck she is REALLY good aginst. That she is a legendary creture sucks...

[rubblekill]

And it's the only deck she is REALLY good aginst. That she is a legendary creture sucks...

She is fine against eldrazi and non-grixis delver. She "can" be awesome against bug decks, but in an inconsistent fashion that really detracts a decent amount of value from a 4 cmc legend
My 2c

[Whitefaces]

I agree on Meren, she's not as good as I had hoped she would be. Shardless is seeing less and less play at the moment, which is where she shines.

Eldrazi just goes over her or Dismemebrs her. Miracles plays StP or Terminus on all your guys so she has very little to get back, if anything. Delver decks, you don't need the value, you just need to survive by killing everything and start landing bombs whatever they are. Combo obviously doesn't give a shit. Lands doesn't give a shit. DnT just Karakas her.

[square_two]

I kind of agree...find myself siding Meren out a LOT. She is fabulous imo against Eldrazi but seems lackluster in many decks that either have Swords or DRS, and that is most decks. I might do my next league run with the 2 Thoughtseize in the main instead of Sidisi and Meren. Or maybe 2 Destructive Flow just for some spice. Thoughtseize definitely a better pick for combatting combo as well as the random stuff I'm seeing online (lot of Depths decks lately), but I really do relish the idea of turn 2 Flow against some decks.

[Arianrhod]

/shrug. I've said before, and I'll re-state: Meren and Sidisi have both been very good for me. Sidisi is probably more cuttable than Meren, but I'm not in any hurry to remove either of them from the deck. I acknowledge and accept that they may not be optimal card selections for everyone. It could very well be that I'm playing the deck in such a way that I leverage more value out of these cards than the average pilot (with regards to these specific cards, not saying that I am an above average pilot in general). As I've previously said, I'm the type of player who plays to Yawg Will in vintage. I set up ten turns in advance for lines of play that will eventually win the game, which is what you basically have to do if you want Meren to be good. You can't just toss her out into play and expect her to take the game over. She needs setup and careful planning, but she rewards you by being an entire plan unto herself. There are few other cards in all of NicFitdom that reward you on the raw power level that Meren is capable of wielding -- you just need to shape your game around her existence.

Again, that does not mean that running Meren is optimal for all pilots. Individual playstyle matters a lot here -- if you feel that you can get more value out of using the Meren (or Sidisi) slot for different card choices, then by all means, don't let me stop you. But, equally, don't be surprised when I continue to play and post results with these cards.

E: something I'd like to tack on and add about Meren vs DRS: if the DRS deck is using time and resources combatting Meren, that's time and resources they aren't using on just flat killing you. I'd sooner they gain 6 than we lose 6. This is ESPECIALLY true in the Sneak versions of Nic Fit, because all we really need is time. If they spend time worrying about Meren instead of actively trying to kill us, that gives us multiple more draw steps to find something obscene to do to dig out of whatever hole we're in (or to just close the game).

[Brael]

@Brael: Grove of the Burnwillows, but no Punishing Fire? Seems like an odd choice. You could drop down to 21/22 land and slot in 2/3 Gitaxian Probe. And perhaps drop Crack the Earth for Probe no. 3/4. The list is incredibly light on meat though.

Oh, and (to make things worse) Traverse seems like a very fun card to loop around w/ Meren + Eternal Witness + sac outlet. Or, you know, Meren + Eternal Witness + Perilous Research. Also seems like a neat little loop.

Whoops, wrote that late at night. I meant to have punishing fire in there. Not sure how I missed that. The main idea I was looking for was Punishing Fire to fuel Pyromancer, and the Nic Fit engine to provide the mana for it.

Something more like
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Huntmaster of the Fells

Spells 21
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Punishing Fire
4 Gitaxian Probe

I agree it seems light though, there's too many different engines competing for space. CA, Delirium, Punishing Fire, Mana, I'm not sure there's room for all. I've found mixing 3 different packages seems to be the maximum and this is using 4.

[cherson]

thank god. I bought meren a couple of weeks ago and expected a lot but I am somehow disappointed.
I consider to replace her by Nissa, vastwood seer.
I tried to find a discussion abt her but without success, did u try her? is she worth to consider?

I am not on sneak fit but playing the flwing:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth OR Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thragtusk

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Sorin, Lord of Inistrad
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

thanks a lot.

[Echelon]

You can't just toss her out into play and expect her to take the game over. She needs setup and careful planning, but she rewards you by being an entire plan unto herself.

Exactly.

[Navsi]

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth OR Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thragtusk

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Sorin, Lord of Inistrad
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Your curve is low enough that you can probably drop the STE or one of the Veteran Explorers. I'd keep STE if you're playing Meren, though.

Nissa is a good lategame CA engine, but she does have the downside of being vulnerable to Abrupt Decay. She's much better against Miracles than Meren and much worse again Shardless. It depends on what you're seeing a lot of in your metagame to be honest.

It may also be worth trying out Nissa, Vital Force in that slot.

[Brael]

thank god. I bought meren a couple of weeks ago and expected a lot but I am somehow disappointed.

Meren has good matchups and bad matchups.

In the one game I won from the disaster my tournament was last night, it was against Shardless BUG on a mulligan to 3, through my opponent resolving 3 or 4 Ancestral Visions (so I basically started the game down 16 cards). I won because Meren is a hell of a card. It's great at getting your opponent to expend resources. Meren alone forced 3 Toxic Deluges for 4 (got her back afterwards with Volraths), and gave me infinite DRS's, which are important in the BUG matchup. DRS superiority is one of the ways you win, and she killed Jace's and Lilianas (I feel I should plug Cavern here again, that's how Meren always resolved).

The weakness of Meren is against Exile based removal, I think it's reasonable to sideboard her out in those matchups (D&T, Miracles, etc) but against the non StP decks she's an all star.

[Brael]

Oh, and (to make things worse) Traverse seems like a very fun card to loop around w/ Meren + Eternal Witness + sac outlet. Or, you know, Meren + Eternal Witness + Perilous Research. Also seems like a neat little loop.

Forgot this part. I'm not a fan of 4 color decks, especially here where there's not enough slots to go around as is. Between Pyromancer and Probe there's just a higher ceiling on Cabal Therapy than Perilous Research. I do like the idea of the loop, but there's a more efficient one:
Traverse, Snapcaster/Eternal Witness
Traverse, Huntmaster of the Fells

Note you can also get tricky with Traverse/Eternal Witness/Traverse/Volrath's Stronghold

I'm not sure the slots exist for your idea, atleast not in this build.

Traverse into 2 towers for an Abbot of Keral Keep seems like a nice source of CA/beats, but I'm not really sure how to make it happen.

[Echelon]

Meren has good matchups and bad matchups.

In the one game I won from the disaster my tournament was last night, it was against Shardless BUG on a mulligan to 3, through my opponent resolving 3 or 4 Ancestral Visions (so I basically started the game down 16 cards). I won because Meren is a hell of a card. It's great at getting your opponent to expend resources. Meren alone forced 3 Toxic Deluges for 4 (got her back afterwards with Volraths), and gave me infinite DRS's, which are important in the BUG matchup. DRS superiority is one of the ways you win, and she killed Jace's and Lilianas (I feel I should plug Cavern here again, that's how Meren always resolved).

The weakness of Meren is against Exile based removal, I think it's reasonable to sideboard her out in those matchups (D&T, Miracles, etc) but against the non StP decks she's an all star.

Lol, that must have pissed off your opponent. Makes me want to get a Stronghold though. And I still have to get my Library. Dammit! You might just force me to go back up to 22 land (but what to cut. I mean, w/ Stronghold even Diabolic Intent gains more value. I guess the most likely candidate would be Phyrexian Tower #2). And I'm not doing 61 cards.


Forgot this part. I'm not a fan of 4 color decks, especially here where there's not enough slots to go around as is. Between Pyromancer and Probe there's just a higher ceiling on Cabal Therapy than Perilous Research. I do like the idea of the loop, but there's a more efficient one:
Traverse, Snapcaster/Eternal Witness
Traverse, Huntmaster of the Fells

Note you can also get tricky with Traverse/Eternal Witness/Traverse/Volrath's Stronghold

I'm not sure the slots exist for your idea, atleast not in this build.

Traverse into 2 towers for an Abbot of Keral Keep seems like a nice source of CA/beats, but I'm not really sure how to make it happen.

Probably not. When it comes to Meren, I tend to look through my list and see what kind of silly loops I can come up with (and in what situations they might come in handy). I don't specifically build for it, but do like to know what's there. Remembering you can loop a Pernicious Deed for X = 3 can be quite a gamebreaker, vs. D&T for instance.

[Brael]

Lol, that must have pissed off your opponent. Makes me want to get a Stronghold though. And I still have to get my Library. Dammit! You might just force me to go back up to 22 land (but what to cut. I mean, w/ Stronghold even Diabolic Intent gains more value. I guess the most likely candidate would be Phyrexian Tower #2). And I'm not doing 61 cards.

I'm becoming less and less of a tower fan by the day, it's just not all that good in the builds I play. And yes, my opponent was pissed, he dropped as soon as the round was over, it probably didn't help matters that he had an active DRS with me at 2 at the point I turned the corner, but he couldn't kill me because my own DRS kept it in check.

Stronghold is an all star.

I've got 2 Libraries, I'm going to get 2 more at some point. I expect SDT to see a ban some day, and if that happens, Library becomes really important to the deck (and also probably a lot more expensive).

[Hodgkins]

Legacy newbie here, does anyone still run the Junk version?

I only recently built it and brought it to a tourney and it was a blast to play. I have a complete list sans duals which I can get to borrow for tournaments. Buying into them is a big investment though so I has to ask: Are the junk builds now inferior to the sneak builds? I notice that I have trouble closing out games with junk even after controlling the board, but what bugs me is the free wins that junk gets versus decks like AnT that gets shut down by gaddock which sneak can't (doesn't?) run.

[Brael]

Legacy newbie here, does anyone still run the Junk version?

I only recently built it and brought it to a tourney and it was a blast to play. I have a complete list sans duals which I can get to borrow for tournaments. Buying into them is a big investment though so I has to ask: Are the junk builds now inferior to the sneak builds? I notice that I have trouble closing out games with junk even after controlling the board, but what bugs me is the free wins that junk gets versus decks like AnT that gets shut down by gaddock which sneak can't (doesn't?) run.

Junk is still the most played version. Sneak is getting a lot of discussion here but there's still only 5-6 people discussing it, I bet most aren't even aware Sneak Fit is a thing yet. I don't think Junk is inferior to Sneak at all, Sneak is just something different.

[Hmmm_Really?]

And I'm not doing 61 cards.

@Echelon, did you see this recent article (Nov 4th) about 60 versus 61 cards?

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593

[jbone2016]

Of note there is a nic fit deck currently 6-1 at Baltimore (hint it isn't me)

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[Arianrhod]

Of note there is a nic fit deck currently 6-1 at Baltimore (hint it isn't me)

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What version is he on, do you know?

[Echelon]

I'm becoming less and less of a tower fan by the day, it's just not all that good in the builds I play. And yes, my opponent was pissed, he dropped as soon as the round was over, it probably didn't help matters that he had an active DRS with me at 2 at the point I turned the corner, but he couldn't kill me because my own DRS kept it in check.

Stronghold is an all star.

I've got 2 Libraries, I'm going to get 2 more at some point. I expect SDT to see a ban some day, and if that happens, Library becomes really important to the deck (and also probably a lot more expensive).

Yup, DRS can be quite the trooper. As for the Libraries - yeah, well, the PS4 Pro is coming out. I have more time (and opportunity) to play The Witcher 3 GOTY edition than time to play paper MtG (which is the only MtG for me) so that's where my money's going for now. I have quite some gaming to catch up to.


Legacy newbie here, does anyone still run the Junk version?

I only recently built it and brought it to a tourney and it was a blast to play. I have a complete list sans duals which I can get to borrow for tournaments. Buying into them is a big investment though so I has to ask: Are the junk builds now inferior to the sneak builds? I notice that I have trouble closing out games with junk even after controlling the board, but what bugs me is the free wins that junk gets versus decks like AnT that gets shut down by gaddock which sneak can't (doesn't?) run.

Don't be too hung up on Teeg. Any decent Storm pilot can answer it G2/3. It's a nice speedbump, but by no means a free win.


@Echelon, did you see this recent article (Nov 4th) about 60 versus 61 cards?

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593

I did now. Thank you very much!

[sdematt]

We have been saying that on the podcast for three years, and myself personally since 2009. 60 isnt gospel.

[jbone2016]

What version is he on, do you know?
There was 2 actually. Probably both on junk and one of them ended up 20th?

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[Hodgkins]

Found the list!


Nic Fit - David Malafarina, 20th Place
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109243


Creatures (15)

1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

Planeswalkers (1)

1 Nissa, Vital Force

Lands (22)

2 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

Spells (22)

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
1 Vindicate

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Interesting list here, and he runs 60.

[LTJZamboni]

I figured I'd check in here since I was the 20th place list with Nic Fit at the recent SCG Baltimore Legacy Open. The deck was straight gas all day and I don't think I would have changed a single card in my 75. I've never really written a tournament report and I didn't take many notes over the course of the day but I'll try and recollect as much as I can for the benefit of the rest of my Nic Fit-playing bretheren and sistren.

Round 1 - Colorless Eldrazi - Win

My opponent saw turn one Veteran Explorer and his shoulders sank. Game one was a lot of chumping with Explorers to get me up to enough mana that I could drop and pop Pernicious Deed to clear his whole board. The highlight of game two was his turn 2 TKS seeing my hand of GSZ, Sigarda, and Therapy. He took Sigarda, which clued me in immediately that he had All is Dust in his hand. I snagged that and then GSZ for Explorer to get the Dismember out of his hand as well, then took a few hits from TKS before drawing a Siege Rhino and taking back the game rather quickly.

Round 2 - Shardless BUG - Win (against eventual winner Jonathan Orr!)

Game 1 he was stuck on one land and I beat him down with Veteran Explorers for a few turns while building my mana base, very pointedly not saccing them to Cabal Therapy so he couldn't get the mana he needed. Game 2 Meren of Clan Nel Toth recurred one Siege Rhino and that was enough to take the game.

Round 3 - Grixis Delver - Win

This matchup is a complete joke. Between Siege Rhino and Pernicious Deed, it is impossible for them to mount a defense against us.

Round 4 - Cloudpost - Loss

My opponent receives a game 1 loss for marked sleeves, but proceeds to win the whole match. The most memorable thing was Nissa, Vital Force single-handedly taking down an Ugin over the course of three turns, and then later my opponent using Thespian's Stage to copy my Karakas, which allowed him to go infinite with Emrakul.

Round 5 - Aggro Loam - Win

Pernicious Deed was the all-star of this match, eating up Mox Diamonds like a fat kid eats cake. The highlight of this match for me was blind hitting two Lilianas, then seeing two Knight of the Reliquaries in his hand with a GSZ in mine. Game two I was able to snag the Toxic Deluge out of his hand, but his resolved Liliana with a Scavenging Ooze was really pressuring me as I tried to land Sigarda. Eventually I landed Sigarda and killed him in a few short swings.

Round 6 - Lands - Win

I would have easily lost this match were it not for my opponent Gambling for the wrong card, followed by me hitting his Dark Depths with a timely Surgical Extraction. Siege Rhino cleaned up very quickly after that.

Round 7 - BR Reanimator - Win

Highlight: I managed to win through a resolved Sire of Insanity via some very lucky draws of Rhinos, Veteran Explorers, and Green Sun's Zeniths while my opponent kept drawing Exhumes with an empty graveyard.

Round 8 - Grixis Painter - Win

This is the most fun match of Magic I have ever played in my life. If you want to see this list, it's Daniel Sacco's 19th place list and it is the sweetest deck I have ever seen. This match really highlighted the power of Meren of Clan Nel Toth, as I was able to repeatedly loop Qasali Pridemage over and over again to systematically destroy each permanent he had on the field while using Meren to take out his Planeswalkers.

Round 9 - Miracles - Loss

I made a misplay here that may have cost me a few percentage points down the line by trying to Abrupt Decay a Top in response to a fetch while knowing my opponent had Snapcaster + Brainstorm in hand, putting me down a removal spell for later when he was attacking me with three Mentor tokens. Game two I mulled into oblivion and was quickly run over by Mentor.


I felt pretty good about my chances going into day 2!


Round 10 - Junk - Win

Apparently my opponent was someone who was well-known for playing Nic Fit. I'm sorry if you're reading this but I'm really bad at remembering names; you were great! Game one was Pernicious Deed into threats, game two was when I finally got to use Kaya for the first time all weekend and she was great. She started by flickering a big Scavenging Ooze to make it small, giving me time to draw removal. I used her as a Phyrexian Arena, though it was later pointed out to me that I probably could have won quicker if I had just -1'd her repeatedly but the call of value was too strong for me to resist.

Round 11 - Miracles - Loss

Game one I had my hand torn apart by Vendilion Clique and made the stupid mistake of popping my Deed while my Top was still on the field, which most likely cost me the game, then the second game I mulliganed to 5 and never saw a land.

Round 12 - Lands - Loss

Game one showed off the power of Siege Rhino curving. I hit all three Siege Rhinos in addition to Nissa, which kept my opponent from ever being able to combo off and kill me. Path to Exile makes this matchup so much better, as not letting our opponent gain life off Marit Lage lets us actually pressure them with Kaya and Rhinos. Games two and three were lost to a series of misplays by me that I would rather not relive; suffice to say, this was the time I started focusing to rally and get that money!

Round 13, 14, & 15 - Grixis Delver - Wins!

Turns out all you have to do to cash at a Legacy event is proceed to play your best matchup three rounds in a row right at the end. The hardest matchup involved my opponent resolving three Painful Truths in one game (thanks a lot, Snapcaster Mage) and Thoughtseizing my Toxic Deluge before drawing into some Bolts to finish me off, but other than that these matches were about as lopsided as you could expect.


My overall thoughts about the day are very positive (obviously). The deck was a great choice for the metagame that decided to show up, with very few hard combo decks at the top tables and a large percentage of Grixis Delver, which I believe is Nic Fit's best matchup. Not only that, but the Delver lists have been cutting Pyromancer for TNN and Snapcaster Mage, making them slower and easier to blow out with Pernicious Deed. Here are my thoughts on some specific cards from my list:

Nissa, Vital Force - this card is my MVP for the weekend. When one card can take down an Ugin, rebuy a Pernicious Deed, or straight up kill your opponent, that is the mark of a good card. I would look to include this card in any Nic Fit list, regardless of your third color.

Kaya, Ghost Assassin - while not as inspiringly good at Nissa, Kaya did her job and she did it well. She lets us win through things that prevent attacking (screw you, Glacial Chasm) and puts serious pressure on Miracles and combo decks. I like her more than Garruk and would play her again in a heartbeat.

Meren of Clan Nel Toth - I was flip-flopping back and forth on this card the entire tournament. In some matchups, it's the stone nuts, while it's basically a glorified 3/4 in others. If I were to make any changes to my 75 for the next tournament, I would probably swap Meren and Kaya between the main and board.

Glissa, the Traitor - this card feels so filthy against Eldrazi, it's not even funny. It makes me want to try a BUG version with Baleful Strixes to actually get value off her trigger.

The rest of the cards are pretty self-explanatory. I apologize if it sounds like I had a string of dumb luck and easy matchups and that's the only reason I cashed (it kind of feels that way, to be honest!) but I am in love with this list and I hope someone is able to get something out of my sloppy excuse for a tournament report. :)

[jbone2016]

Grats on the finish!
I tried a food for fit list (food chain)at the 4pm legacy challenge. Beating burn, sneak and show, lands and then losing to miracles.

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[Echelon]

@sdematt: I tend to skip on the podcasts, they're not my thing. I'll still have to redo the math on my manabase, see how that works out. Probably still not much of an impact, but I want to go through the numbers nonetheless. Still trying to stick to 60, but I wouldn't have such a problem going to 61 anymore (especially if it's a land).

@LTJZamboni: Congrats on the result!

[Hodgkins]

Congrats @LTJZamboni, list looks pretty clean.
Just wondering if you ever missed having Dragonlord Dromoka because Grave Titan can't be tutored with GSZ.
Also I'm curious if Glissa was specifically just for Eldrazi what other matchup would you possibly side it in, it doesn't have any other utility besides recurring Top and Needle right?
On painful truths, would you ever consider running 2?

[Neo900]

Glissa is great with engineered explosives.
I also think about Painful Truth. I play it as a 1-off maybe 2 are worth it. The problem is if you just have 3 colors, you have to get all of them very quick at the beginning.
I also playing scapeshift in jund colors. So many times I just want to dig with the top for it and win the game. Since the sacrificing of the lands isn't part of the costs I can run into a counter with no drawback.
Also saw in jund sideboards from the ashes. I can imagine how it destroys whole decks.

[Echelon]

Glissa is great with engineered explosives.
I also think about Painful Truth. I play it as a 1-off maybe 2 are worth it. The problem is if you just have 3 colors, you have to get all of them very quick at the beginning.

Glissa + Engineered Explosives is wishful thinking, unless you specifically build for it (which is probably a bad plan in its own rights).

Painful Truths isn't a card you try to play early, colour requirements aren't an issue (I've played them for about a year or so). If it is, well, fetchlands & DRS are your friends.

[Navsi]

So I have managed to actually find a tournament on the 20th, so I'm messing with Sneak-Fit again.

Currently I'm looking at this:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
----
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Sneak Attack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Punishing Fire
3 Flex Slots
----
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
----
Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Distended Mindbender
3 Flex Slots

I have 3 unassigned slots main and 3 in the side, and I'm happy with everything else. Atarka could become Inferno Titan if the CMC is more important than being green.
The standard for the maindeck would be Sidisi, Sakura-Tribe Elder and either Deed, Primeval Titan or Abrupt Decay.
Sideboard would default to 1 To The Slaughter, +1 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Slaughter Games.

Is there anything you people think is worth testing / giving a run out in one of these slots? I have a Nissa, Vital Force I'm thinking about trying out again.

[LTJZamboni]

Congrats @LTJZamboni, list looks pretty clean.
Just wondering if you ever missed having Dragonlord Dromoka because Grave Titan can't be tutored with GSZ.
Also I'm curious if Glissa was specifically just for Eldrazi what other matchup would you possibly side it in, it doesn't have any other utility besides recurring Top and Needle right?
On painful truths, would you ever consider running 2?

Correct about Glissa - she's only there for Eldrazi. With Painful Truths, I could see shaving something from the sideboard for a second copy as it was great in the matchups that went long.


Is there anything you people think is worth testing / giving a run out in one of these slots? I have a Nissa, Vital Force I'm thinking about trying out again.

Nissa is great if you're having trouble pressuring planeswalkers and want quick inevitability in the form of her ultimate.

[square_two]

I have 3 unassigned slots main and 3 in the side, and I'm happy with everything else. Atarka could become Inferno Titan if the CMC is more important than being green.

My hunch is that the lower cmc of Inferno Titan is more important. I've seen several occasions where I can barely cast the Titan and it seems to do enough work in those cases to kill Delver/Mentor/DRS/etc that is needing to die. I can't recall any games in my own testing where I had both the extra mana for Atarka + the need for extra damage. Would be interested to see how it could pan out though.

Edit: Also - last night was the first time I've really been impressed with PFire and seen it over-perform. Came across Grixis Delver online and a single PFire took out a Delver, 2 Pyromancers, and a DRS in a single game. I had plenty of time to land Sneak Attack as well as hardcast 6-drops.

[Brael]

@Echelon, did you see this recent article (Nov 4th) about 60 versus 61 cards?

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=593

I responded to that article on Reddit. He's right about the 61, the real question is how far above 61 can we go? A few months or maybe a year ago, this was a question I tried answering based purely on theory and the result I came up with was that your manabase (in particular fetches) determines how high you can go before you start downgrading too much.

Something else worth keeping in mind is how you build your sideboard. If you have a land in your sideboard, and too many cards for a specific match, you can add a land and go up to 63 MB and sideboard in more cards than you have to take out. Assuming you have other things like mana dorks (such as DRS) coming in, this works without slowing your mana too much. The main issue I ran into though was that 61 is fine, 63 can be ok post board, but then it jumps to needing 70ish in order to get the room for that next card (all the cards between those two points are just maintaining consistency)

[Ganfar]

My hunch is that the lower cmc of Inferno Titan is more important. I've seen several occasions where I can barely cast the Titan and it seems to do enough work in those cases to kill Delver/Mentor/DRS/etc that is needing to die. I can't recall any games in my own testing where I had both the extra mana for Atarka + the need for extra damage. Would be interested to see how it could pan out though.


Titan can also do atleast 12 to a player(With two triggers and firebearth). Can also deal 6 dmg on cretures.


Atarka does 8 to a player. Can deal 5 dmg to creture or planewalkers.

[truthfulcake]

My overall thoughts about the day are very positive (obviously). The deck was a great choice for the metagame that decided to show up, with very few hard combo decks at the top tables and a large percentage of Grixis Delver, which I believe is Nic Fit's best matchup. Not only that, but the Delver lists have been cutting Pyromancer for TNN and Snapcaster Mage, making them slower and easier to blow out with Pernicious Deed. Here are my thoughts on some specific cards from my list:

Nissa, Vital Force - this card is my MVP for the weekend. When one card can take down an Ugin, rebuy a Pernicious Deed, or straight up kill your opponent, that is the mark of a good card. I would look to include this card in any Nic Fit list, regardless of your third color.

Kaya, Ghost Assassin - while not as inspiringly good at Nissa, Kaya did her job and she did it well. She lets us win through things that prevent attacking (screw you, Glacial Chasm) and puts serious pressure on Miracles and combo decks. I like her more than Garruk and would play her again in a heartbeat.

Meren of Clan Nel Toth - I was flip-flopping back and forth on this card the entire tournament. In some matchups, it's the stone nuts, while it's basically a glorified 3/4 in others. If I were to make any changes to my 75 for the next tournament, I would probably swap Meren and Kaya between the main and board.

Glissa, the Traitor - this card feels so filthy against Eldrazi, it's not even funny. It makes me want to try a BUG version with Baleful Strixes to actually get value off her trigger.

The rest of the cards are pretty self-explanatory. I apologize if it sounds like I had a string of dumb luck and easy matchups and that's the only reason I cashed (it kind of feels that way, to be honest!) but I am in love with this list and I hope someone is able to get something out of my sloppy excuse for a tournament report. :)

Congrats on the tournament placing man, easy matchups or not, Nic Fit isn't an easy to deck to pilot. I'm on a similar Junk build, I'll adjust mine closer to yours and see how it holds up (Lot of delver decks at the weekly legacy tournament I go to...). Main difference being putting in a Painful Truths.

New Nissa seems really good in this list, but Kaya? I'm not sold on her yet, but I'll give her a shot. How does she help against combo though? There's a Show and Tell player and a Reanimator player in my testing group. I can see Kaya being sweet against Show and Tell if you can land her Turn 2-3, not so sure about Reanimator. Better than Meren at least in those matchups.

On Grave Titan though- did you consider Sun Titan in its place? I've currently got Sun Titan in, and he's so very good with most of this deck. Doesn't beat 2 2/2 zombies for value on its own, but getting back a Deed or an Eternal Witness is also very good.

[Kobra_D]

Is Glissa good in the eldrazi match up just because of first strike death touch?

[Brael]

Is Glissa good in the eldrazi match up just because of first strike death touch?

Yes. If you're using Glissa you're just interested in the first strike/death touch combo. Pretend the artifact text doesn't exist.

[Echelon]

Yes. If you're using Glissa you're just interested in the first strike/death touch combo. Pretend the artifact text doesn't exist.

What artifact text? Isn't that just oddly placed flavor text?

[Arianrhod]

Atarka is strictly worse than Inferno Titan in almost every way for Sneak. Not being able to hit players with the trigger is an absolute deal-breaker.

[Navsi]

Atarka is strictly worse than Inferno Titan in almost every way for Sneak. Not being able to hit players with the trigger is an absolute deal-breaker.

Yeah, that makes sense. Shows how much I know about Tarkir block cards.

[sdematt]

Correct about Glissa - she's only there for Eldrazi. With Painful Truths, I could see shaving something from the sideboard for a second copy as it was great in the matchups that went long.



Nissa is great if you're having trouble pressuring planeswalkers and want quick inevitability in the form of her ultimate.

I'm glad you did well and liked the list. We all (especially me and Kevin) worked hard on it. Keep it up! PM me, I'll send you a little something for your finish.

-Matt

[MDHackbert]

What's the podcast you folks mentioned?

[sdematt]

Everyday Eternal

[mstephenson]

Hello all!
Lurker since around when eldrazi became a force and been playing nic fit for as bout as long.

Have been testing Atraxa, Praetor's Voice in a 4c build and wanted to share and hear others thoughts.


Main Board:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Side Board:
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Painful Truths
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

So the mana base is better than expected due to vet being able to fetch island.

4c goodies.

Leovold: I really like running Leovold although I am unsure how much he helps the faster combo matchups because my meta game is lacking in those. But against port/wasteland and brainstorm decks he is really good.

Atraxa: The flying, green sunable batterskull. Crazy against delver and goyf decks and great to make the opposing sides batterskull less relevent. Also the fact that she flies is great as well for beating planeswalkers to death.

Side Board:

My side board is a bit weird due to my meta having very few combo decks and mostly just being some lands, some infect(friend suggest jamming a melire in the side board for them lol), a bunch of delver, a bunch of DnT, and a couple other random fair decks.


Also I have found Nissa, Vital force to be amazing so far as she just mauls other planeswalkers and if you turn 2/3 her and then ult her against grindy match ups you wont be losing that game.

I have also considered changing some cards to put a jace and a second basic island in and possible a mindbreak trap for the leovold plus storm shenagins but both seem kinda of... ambitious

[TTX]

What artifact text? Isn't that just oddly placed flavor text?

Agreed. First Strike Deathtouch is no joke. There's a reason only 2 cards have ever been printed with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ulysse95]

Hello all!
Lurker since around when eldrazi became a force and been playing nic fit for as bout as long.

Have been testing Atraxa, Praetor's Voice in a 4c build and wanted to share and hear others thoughts.



Hi !

I see two 6 drop and no STE, aren't you too slow when not hitting cabal/vet? Or vs white when not finding any sac effect?
Also Elspeth SC wouldn't be simply better than Sorin, Grim Nemesis in main?

In your shoes, I think I would choose only one 6-drop and put a sakura or a second deathrite instead the other one.

My two cents ;)

[pettdan]

Agreed. First Strike Deathtouch is no joke. There's a reason only 2 cards have ever been printed with it.

I had a Glissa holding back an Inkwell Leviathan a few weeks ago.. No joke indeed! :)

[cherson]

I know u guys discussed the gitrog monster already but I wonder if someone tested it a bit further? Maybe a workable sideboard card against eldrazi?

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[square_two]

I know u guys discussed the gitrog monster already but I wonder if someone tested it a bit further? Maybe a workable sideboard card against eldrazi?

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What makes you think of it as anti-Eldrazi material?

Once we get to 5 or 6 mana, you can GSZ for Glissa or Meren, or start hard casting other creatures that outclass them such as the titans or a dragonlord. In the sneak build there is both Sidisi and Meren which help road-block Eldrazi. I wonder if the new Nissa is a better card engine than Gitrog...once you ult her then the opponent can't remove the emblem to prevent you from drawing a ton of cards in a grindy game.

[Arianrhod]

What makes you think of it as anti-Eldrazi material?

Once we get to 5 or 6 mana, you can GSZ for Glissa or Meren, or start hard casting other creatures that outclass them such as the titans or a dragonlord. In the sneak build there is both Sidisi and Meren which help road-block Eldrazi. I wonder if the new Nissa is a better card engine than Gitrog...once you ult her then the opponent can't remove the emblem to prevent you from drawing a ton of cards in a grindy game.

I think this is likely true. Gitrog does shine in the Eldrazi matchup, it's true -- but I think that other options, as noted, serve multi-matchup duty better than the toad does, sadly.

I've gone on record saying this before, and I'll say it again: Nissa Vital Force is everything we want in a nice, neat little package. With a bow on top.

.........I now have images of a Magical Girl Nissa alter dancing in my head.

[Echelon]

I know u guys discussed the gitrog monster already but I wonder if someone tested it a bit further? Maybe a workable sideboard card against eldrazi?

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High CMC cards seldom work well as SB cards. You need to be alive by the time you might be able to cast them, which usually is the problem. GSZ for Glissa is still cheaper than Gitrog and does a better job of stalling the ground wars until answered.

[cherson]

What makes you think of it as anti-Eldrazi material?

Once we get to 5 or 6 mana, you can GSZ for Glissa or Meren, or start hard casting other creatures that outclass them such as the titans or a dragonlord. In the sneak build there is both Sidisi and Meren which help road-block Eldrazi. I wonder if the new Nissa is a better card engine than Gitrog...once you ult her then the opponent can't remove the emblem to prevent you from drawing a ton of cards in a grindy game.

sorry, didn't mention that I am not on SneakFit. I posted my list two pages before and my curve is quite low but includes meren.
I don't play titan's neither dragonlord. my biggest creatures are rhinos and sigarda, both /5 means they die to smasher.
glissa works fine but just ones. monster could even kill oblivion sower and stay alive.
nissa created 5/5 as well which is great, maybe she is indeed the better overall option.
I play two PW main already (sorin, loi and garruk) and big sorin in the sideboard. I have to re-consider that.

@echelon: agree that the higher mana costs are an issue.

[Navsi]

I'm tempted to try out a Stoneforge list running Basilisk Collar as a card to help against Eldrazi.

[square_two]

I'm tempted to try out a Stoneforge list running Basilisk Collar as a card to help against Eldrazi.

I tried out an NO Rug list earlier this year with Granger Guildmage as a sideboard card against D&T, Elves, etc - stuff with */1's. It was surprisingly a really solid GSZ target and I recall a few games where it was killed on sight.

Thought it'd be a fun mention if you are running Basilisk Collar and can find a way to squeeze in a small red splash in order to activate the guy. Unfortunately in nic fit we already have Deed and Decays to handle most */1's, and the guildmage without a collar is quite horrible against anything bigger.

[Ulysse95]

I don't play titan's neither dragonlord. my biggest creatures are rhinos and sigarda, both /5 means they die to smasher.
glissa works fine but just ones. monster could even kill oblivion sower and stay alive.

I don't get what you mean...
Repeating, but just in case : Glissa's first strike + death touch made her a serial killer. Strenght/thoughtness doesn't matter if the opponnent creature doesn't have first neither double strike or an accurate protection or any other indestructible ability.

[fireiced]

I think this is likely true. Gitrog does shine in the Eldrazi matchup, it's true -- but I think that other options, as noted, serve multi-matchup duty better than the toad does, sadly.

I've gone on record saying this before, and I'll say it again: Nissa Vital Force is everything we want in a nice, neat little package. With a bow on top.

.........I now have images of a Magical Girl Nissa alter dancing in my head.

Nic Fit Planeswalker Analysis, updated through Shadows over Innistrad has to be updated for Nissa being the sexiest cherry Nic Fit has ever gotten in a walker after Garruk Relentless :cool:

[Echelon]

Concerning Glissa - she should be a very nice inclusion in a SFM based build. Strapping a Jitte to her seem pretty OP. It's probably too cutesy though.

[Navsi]

Speaking of SFM builds, this is where I'm currently at with my 4-colour plan:

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Verdant Catacombs
5 other fetch land
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Phyrexian Tower

---

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage

---

The deck is naturally strong against both aggro and control - is there a way to threaten combo reasonably? I don't think moving Teeg to the maindeck is a good idea with 4cmc planeswalkers. Maybe JTMS should become a Kaya - he's hard to cast and Kaya helps against combo decks as well as Miracles. I do think a Leovold and a Nissa, Vital Force should probably go in somewhere, and some copies of Lost Legacy would probably help against combo decks out of the sideboard.

[pettdan]

That's a really sweet list Navsi, would like to try it. I strongly suggest testing Leovold as a 1 of in your maindeck, I think he's the BUG version of Gaddock and never irrelevant. He should go pretty well with the maindeck discard, against combo you can try to hit combo-pieces in their opening hand and then remp into GSZ for Leovold shutting down their cantripping for more combo pieces. And Leovold is naturally good vs the non-combo decks.

[cherson]

I don't get what you mean...
Repeating, but just in case : Glissa's first strike + death touch made her a serial killer. Strenght/thoughtness doesn't matter if the opponnent creature doesn't have first neither double strike or an accurate protection or any other indestructible ability.

you can't get it because I was completely wrong abt the deathtouch/first strike rule.
tbh I thought glissa will die after blocking smasher but of course not. first strike is a state based action and therefore smasher will die before any damage can be dealt to glissa.
sorry :eyebrow:

[fireiced]

you can't get it because I was completely wrong abt the deathtouch/first strike rule.
tbh I thought glissa will die after blocking smasher but of course not. first strike is a state based action and therefore smasher will die before any damage can be dealt to glissa.
sorry :eyebrow:

Some rulings here, First Strike is not a SBA. A creature with First Strike basically gets to deal damage first in the First Strike portion of the Combat Damage (there is the normal combat phase after first strike for non first strikers) step during the Combat Phase. After dealing damage then we have a SBA check and the creature with Deathtouched marked damage from Glissa dies from SBA

[Ulysse95]

Speaking of SFM builds, this is where I'm currently at with my 4-colour plan:

---

The deck is naturally strong against both aggro and control - is there a way to threaten combo reasonably? I don't think moving Teeg to the maindeck is a good idea with 4cmc planeswalkers. Maybe JTMS should become a Kaya - he's hard to cast and Kaya helps against combo decks as well as Miracles. I do think a Leovold and a Nissa, Vital Force should probably go in somewhere, and some copies of Lost Legacy would probably help against combo decks out of the sideboard.

I agree : Leovold deserve a main deck slot.

Along your fetchs, I think you should try 1or 2 ash barrens, isn't it?

[Navsi]

Ash Barrens

I don't think it's worth it in this list.

- It doesn't give us any colored mana in our opening hand on turn one, and wants a mana of input before it does on later turns.
- Worse with Tireless Tracker
- We already have plenty of lifegain in the deck to offset fetchlands' costs
- Colorless mana isn't super useful because we play quite a few full-color spells

I think Ash Barrens would be best in a deck with more use for the colorless mana, maybe as a way to splash Thought-Knot Seer etc more easily in a three-colour deck? Manabase something like this:

3 Llanowar Wastes
2 Yavimaya Coast
2 Underground River
3 Ash Barrens
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Wastes

11G/11B/10U/11C turn one, 14/14/13/11 if you have time to landcycle. Seems like it could potentially support a blue NicFit shell, making up for the usual blue weakness (lack of finishers) with Thought-Knot Seer and maybe Reality Smasher?

[Echelon]

How about a Junk + Colorless list so you get to abuse the white hatebears into Thoughtknot Seers in G2/3..? Seems like a better plan than Rhinos FTW vs. ANT/TES. Clock + disruption wrapped into 1 neat little package.

11 initial sources is too low for black and green though. We really want to be able to either Cabal Therapy or play a green card T1 reliably.

I just wouldn't know for the life of me how we'd ever be able to make the manabase stable without it growing too big.

[TTX]

Speaking of SFM builds, this is where I'm currently at with my 4-colour plan:

3 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
2 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Verdant Catacombs
5 other fetch land
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Phyrexian Tower

---

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage

---

The deck is naturally strong against both aggro and control - is there a way to threaten combo reasonably? I don't think moving Teeg to the maindeck is a good idea with 4cmc planeswalkers. Maybe JTMS should become a Kaya - he's hard to cast and Kaya helps against combo decks as well as Miracles. I do think a Leovold and a Nissa, Vital Force should probably go in somewhere, and some copies of Lost Legacy would probably help against combo decks out of the sideboard.

Have you considered Rafiq of the Many?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fireiced]

How about a Junk + Colorless list so you get to abuse the white hatebears into Thoughtknot Seers in G2/3..? Seems like a better plan than Rhinos FTW vs. ANT/TES. Clock + disruption wrapped into 1 neat little package.

11 initial sources is too low for black and green though. We really want to be able to either Cabal Therapy or play a green card T1 reliably.

I just wouldn't know for the life of me how we'd ever be able to make the manabase stable without it growing too big.

I remember trying out Nic Fit with Colourless Eldrazi splash quite a lot of pages before. Does not really work and I really died to my manabase quite a lot of times. Ash Barrens feels much like a instant speed uncounterable Traverse :confused: but I doubt if it will make the colourless splash work in Nic Fit

[Echelon]

I really died to my manabase quite a lot of times. Ash Barrens feels much like a instant speed uncounterable Traverse :confused: but I doubt if it will make the colourless splash work in Nic Fit

"Like butter scraped over too much bread."

The deck has its limits. Unfortunately, this is one of them.

[square_two]

Nic Fit Planeswalker Analysis, updated through Shadows over Innistrad has to be updated for Nissa being the sexiest cherry Nic Fit has ever gotten in a walker after Garruk Relentless :cool:

In the mediocre legacy league ran on twitch over the summer, Danny Batterman ran a nic fit Planeswalker control deck and his list had:

4 Oath of Nissa
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Karn Liberated
1 Narset Transcendent

I can't recall how good Narset seemed, but I would not be surprised if either Ob Nixilis Reignitied or the new Nissa could work as 5-drop walkers which the list does not have any of. Ob Nixilis in particular seems like an improved Narset, providing both guaranteed card draw as well as removing troublesome creatures. Even using the new Nissa to recur Deeds could be solid.

[cherson]

There are also some YouTube games online. Abzan nicfit planeswalker.

https://youtu.be/P6T_k1565MI

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[rubblekill]

Good old Chemfy, he was nice enough to upload a playlist of him playing nic fit (rhino version and the pw version) after I asked him to. He made some misplays but I was still happy to watch some videos of the deck in action.
He plays Bobmans rhino list and the abzan Pw posted by Arian some months ago.

Ps: Arian, have you been tuning the abzan PW version during this months? I played the deck a lot and want to know your current opinion on it

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/WhNqAaSh.png
http://imgur.com/WhNqAaS
RURIC THAR missing in the SB

Dipping my foot back in. This is my starting point for the online meta. Likely buying the rest this evening when I get home from work.

Suggestions and comments are always welcome.

[Arianrhod]

Good old Chemfy, he was nice enough to upload a playlist of him playing nic fit (rhino version and the pw version) after I asked him to. He made some misplays but I was still happy to watch some videos of the deck in action.
He plays Bobmans rhino list and the abzan Pw posted by Arian some months ago.

Ps: Arian, have you been tuning the abzan PW version during this months? I played the deck a lot and want to know your current opinion on it

Current opinion is that I haven't played it at all or worked on it at all since the Grand Prix -- Sneak has gotten all of my attention. I will note that Gitrog is definitely not a card that should be in the deck any more -- he is, unfortunately, not quite as good at his role as other cards that fulfill a similar function better or for less mana.

That's about all I've got -- sorry I couldn't be more helpful!

[Brael]

Another Thursday Legacy is done.

Went 3-0 in the tournament, 1-1-1 in my league match, against Miracles. Didn't have the official league standings nearby but as far as we could figure, I'm currently in first place. Which is a pretty nice feeling against a field of T1 decks.

The Miracles outcome is really unfortunate (though not unusual), but it was also interesting so I want to talk about it.

Game 1 involved a T2 Counterbalance/Top lock. With some good piloting to play around things, and my first land being a Cavern of Souls though I was able to play through it well for awhile. Eventually though, I just got overwhelmed. I didn't get a Top in that game, and while I did get a Tracker I only got one card from it before it was removed. I also lost my Dark Confidant to a Terminus without flipping anything because I had to keep a board presence going. For a long time I had a Dryad Arbor that was slowing down my opponents Jace but he eventually got me with an ultimate after a string of drawing 4 Windswept Heaths in a row.

Game 2 looked grim early on after yet another T2 Counter/Top lock. A few turns in my opponent attempted a Venser/Karakas lock but I was able to stop him, the next turn he established a Clique/Karakas lock though. Fortunately, I was SDT flooded in this game and had 3 of them, so I was able to cash them in for cards with shuffles, and manipulate things so that I could keep the cards I wanted away from the Clique. After a few turns though I was able to string together a Qasali Pridemage and Abrupt Decay and break both locks. It was a tough battle from that point on though because I never broke 3 lands on board (Bayou, Swamp, Stronghold), however I did have a Carpet of Flowers going. 2 resolved Sorin LoI's, an Eternal Witness, Dark Confidant, and something else later though I was able to stick enough to the board that I got there.

Game 3 started like normal with a T1 Top for both of us, from there though I was able to quickly pull ahead, Abrupt Decay the Counter/Top lock for the third game in a row, double Therapy his Brainstorm, Clique, Moat, and Jace, and leave him empty handed. The beats kept coming too with a Ranger of Eos providing a lot of power to the board. The game ended with me being 1 mana short of finishing things with a Sorin emblem.

So with those summaries out of the way, what I want to talk about is Cavern of Souls, and the importance of playing fast.

First Cavern. Yet again it has proven itself. This card is just good, it changes how you construct your deck a bit but from my experience with it over these past few weeks the results can't be denied. It wrecks Chalice of the Void plans, it lets you play through Counter/Top, it takes a land vs spell slot in the deck, and it can even be tutored with KotR (though I haven't had this one come up yet, it's a little slow). Against the prison decks, or Miracles, or Eldrazi, my win percentage is way higher in games where I have Caverns than where I don't. Sneak is doing something similar by landing a Sneak and then putting cards into play in a way where they can't be countered. That's one of the keys to the format right now. If you're not running them, I would highly suggest making the deck adjustments and doing so.

Second, playing fast. My Miracles match tonight went 1-1-1 instead of what should have been a 2-1 and I can perfectly see where the misplays were made. In about 3 turns over the 3 games I tanked and had to think about my plays, but otherwise it was near instantaneous (which is not always the easiest thing against a Miracles player who is taking shortcuts to save on the clock). Combined, this was probably a minute I could have saved. The biggest time waster though is shuffling. Something I've been trying to work on is getting faster at shuffling. It uses a ridiculous amount of time in 50 minute matches. If I could have shaved even 3 seconds off every shuffle in that match, there would have been atleast 2-3 more turns in the final game.

I have some idea of what I need to do but does anyone have a good shuffling technique? If I can get decent at it in the next couple weeks I want to try riffles because they're fast and effective. I'm still looking at playing in Louisville in January, but one of my requirements if I play Nic Fit is that I have a good shuffle due to the clock.

[Brael]

I remember trying out Nic Fit with Colourless Eldrazi splash quite a lot of pages before. Does not really work and I really died to my manabase quite a lot of times. Ash Barrens feels much like a instant speed uncounterable Traverse :confused: but I doubt if it will make the colourless splash work in Nic Fit

I'm a big fan of Ash Barrens. It can probably work in a G/B/C build, but not G/B/X/C. It's a fantastic card, and I'm definitely going to play one once I can start altering my list again (locked due to a 12 week league). But you can't expect too much out of it. I think 1 copy over the 8th fetch is a good number for it.

[Echelon]

RURIC THAR missing in the SB

Dipping my foot back in. This is my starting point for the online meta. Likely buying the rest this evening when I get home from work.

Suggestions and comments are always welcome.

Our high priest has returneth! Welcome back!


I have some idea of what I need to do but does anyone have a good shuffling technique? If I can get decent at it in the next couple weeks I want to try riffles because they're fast and effective. I'm still looking at playing in Louisville in January, but one of my requirements if I play Nic Fit is that I have a good shuffle due to the clock.

Congrats on the result! It seems your list is doing quite well. As for shuffles, I just do 7 mashes and then offer my deck to my opponent. Takes me a couple of seconds each.

[rubblekill]

http://i.imgur.com/WhNqAaSh.png
http://imgur.com/WhNqAaS
RURIC THAR missing in the SB

Dipping my foot back in. This is my starting point for the online meta. Likely buying the rest this evening when I get home from work.

Suggestions and comments are always welcome.

Good to see you again my good man [emoji2] I hope you will smash rhinos into other people's faces again someday!

[Navsi]

So thinking about builds some more.

I'm looking at something like this as a core for the deck:

6 Ramp Creatures (Veteran Explorer + Deathrite Shaman + Sakura-Tribe Elder)
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Zenithable Finisher (normally Sigarda, Primeval Titan, maybe Atraxa)

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Color-specific Removal (Swords, Path, Punishing Fire)

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Color-specific filter/cantrips (SDT, or Brainstorm in blue)

11-12 flex slots
21-23 lands

Does that look like a reasonable 'core' list to you guys? I get that sometimes things get dropped (some lists run 5 ramp creatures, or no Tireless Tracker) but I feel like the list above is as close to a core decklist as we can get.

[Echelon]

@Navsi: You might want to lump AD & colour specific removal together as "4/5 spotremoval".

As for manabase - you might want to be more specific as to the number of initial mana sources for each colour. 23 Plains make for a horrible BUG manabase.

[Navsi]

@Navsi: You might want to lump AD & colour specific removal together as "4/5 spotremoval".

As for manabase - you might want to be more specific as to the number of initial mana sources for each colour. 23 Plains make for a horrible BUG manabase.

Mana bases are variable enough that it's hard to be specific. Most lists run ~7 fetches, ~6 duals, ~6 basics and ~3 utility lands, but those numbers change up a lot, since some lists play 4 colours, colorless splashes, Grove of the Burnwillows or Valakuts, all of which change things a lot. The '14G/14B/13X/22L' guidelines are great, but a lot of decks make exceptions - pretty much zero Scapeshift builds managed 14 black sources, for example.

[Echelon]

The '14G/14B/13X/22L' guidelines are great, but a lot of decks make exceptions - pretty much zero Scapeshift builds managed 14 black sources, for example.

The fact that they don't do it doesn't mean they shouldn't aim for it :wink:.

As a general rule, 14G/14B/>=13X/21-23L should be a fine template.

[Navsi]

On a similar line, other card roles/types to plan out.

- Removal, Discard & Interaction
- Filtering, Tutoring & Draw
- Threats & Finishers
- Stabilization
- Ramp / Mana Acceleration

I'm thinking of going through lists on MtgTop8 for the numbers on each of these for different archetypes to get some more numbers on what slots are necessary. I'm thinking of looking particularly at other midrange-control decks like Shardless, Jund, Bant and Maverick, since they're the closest comparison points we have. We know that Miracles is going to have more filtering, more removal and less finishers than we do, after all, and comparing to combo decks is not really possible. Grixis may also be worth comparing to, although the control builds are probably more relevant than the tempo ones.

I'm grouping tutoring/filtering/draw together since the general consensus is that Painful Truths, Sensei's Divining Top and Baleful Strix all fulfil pretty similar roles in terms of increasing our deck's consistency and letting us see more cards. I guess "Consistency" should really be this header. Thoughts on whether Courser of Kruphix should count here?

Removal & Discard I'm also grouping together as cards that interact with our opponent's board state without killing them. We pretty much always play 4 Discard (Therapy) and the rest spot/board removal. A lot of other decks do a similar thing with Thoughtseizes.

Ramp is relatively unique to us, but we do see similar counterparts in other Deathrite Shaman decks. Maverick probably plays similar numbers to us (maybe a few more) and both Shardless and Jund play DRS as well. It might be interesting to see how their mana curves scale with the number of Deathrites / other ramp creatures they are playing. If playing 4 manadorks for ramp moves the average CMC from (for example) 2 to 2.4, we can use that to determine where our CMCs should be averaging out given that we're playing ~10 mana guys.

Stabilization is a category I've added in since I last posted about this stuff. We need some number of card slots which can help us to regain board control against threatening opponents. The deck has plenty of this naturally - Pernicious Deed, Thragtusk, Deathrite and Zenith - but this is still something to keep an eye on as a category we can't afford to skimp too hard on - as Arianrhod can tell you from his work on the colorless Nic Fit builds, you do have to have something available to clean up Delvers. This usually means either X-for-1 removal, lifegain/removal creatures (Thrag, Shriekmaw, Huntmaster) or multiple bodies. Punishing Fire and other recursive removal probably can be counted here too.

For finishers I'm going to run numbers considering anything that does 3 or more damage/turn a finisher, in addition to Deathrites and other sources of non-combat damage to opponents. Planeswalker that can personally end the game probably also count - so JTMS is in, but LOTV isn't.

With that, I'm going to go make some spreadsheets.

[Echelon]

I smell the second coming of SE Fit!

[cherson]

I still build my deck based on the old sheet you created months ago.
- removal/interaction
- library manipulation / CA
- finishers
- ramp

In my opinion it is still very solid and I like it a lot. I try to find cards which basically fulfill at least two roles that's the reason why I think PW should be 'core' as well and why tracker is such a beast.

If u take deed for example and the new setup:
- removal (Removal & Discard I'm also grouping together as cards that interact with our opponent's board state without killing them)
- stabilization (to regain board control against threatening opponents)

deed is both and if you keep the same counting method (0.5 or 1 for each role) it is a great a card (not that we didn't know it before).
same with tracker (finisher and CA etc).

I think we should check how much 'points' are needed for each role to make the deck even more competitive and balanced.

ramp for example: I am completely fine with 10.5 (4xvex, 4xgsz, 1xdrs, 1xste, 0.5 tower)
depends on the different deck types and your cmc curve but in general I think this kind of 'analytics' are very helpful.

thanks a lot!

[Echelon]

I still build my deck based on the old sheet you created months ago.

Awesome! Glad to see our work was helpful.

[Navsi]

As an example, I've gone through the 9 recent Maverick lists on MTGTOP8 and got these totals:

Land: 21-23 (I'm not counting Maze of Ith, Dark Depths or Dryad Arbor as a land, but I am including Wasteland)
Ramp: 8-9 (about 50-50 split, including Zeniths)
Interaction: 18-25 (including Thalia, Teeg/Pridemage and Zenith, not including Wasteland but including Maze of Ith)
Consistency: 11-15 (Including KOTR)
Stabilization: 16-24 (higher numbers in Punishing lists - includes Scryb Ranger and Mother of Runes as they go nowhere else)
Finishers: 19-21 (including Dark Depths, equipment/Stoneforge and DRS)
Average CMC: 1.81-2.13 (including Depths/Arbor/Maze as 0-mana spells)

It's interesting to note that their finisher numbers are high compared to most Nic Fit lists - we normally run a couple Deathrites, 4 Zenith, and ~10 creatures with 3+ power. A few of our finishers are stronger haymakers (Sigarda etc) but in terms of numbers we're actually quite behind which is surprising. It's mainly because Maverick seems to almost always run 4 KOTR and 1-2 QPM, both of which beat down well, along with Stoneforges and a reasonable number of THCs.

[Echelon]

It's interesting to note that their finisher numbers are high compared to most Nic Fit lists - we normally run a couple Deathrites, 4 Zenith, and ~10 creatures with 3+ power. A few of our finishers are stronger haymakers (Sigarda etc) but in terms of numbers we're actually quite behind which is surprising. It's mainly because Maverick seems to almost always run 4 KOTR and 1-2 QPM, both of which beat down well, along with Stoneforges and a reasonable number of THCs.

I think we need to clearly define what we consider to be a finisher.

Don't forget we get away w/ a lot of shit b/c of Pernicious Deed, by the way. Hide behind a Siege Rhino for a bit crack Deed for 3 to wipe the board.

Oh, and Wasteland is not a land but a spell. Same goes for Gaea's Cradle (some lists run that as a 1-off).

[Navsi]

I think we need to clearly define what we consider to be a finisher.

Don't forget we get away w/ a lot of shit b/c of Pernicious Deed, by the way. Hide behind a Siege Rhino for a bit crack Deed for 3 to wipe the board.

Oh, and Wasteland is not a land but a spell. Same goes for Gaea's Cradle (some lists run that as a 1-off).

In that case they're between 22 and 29 interaction slots, and a few lists have 10 Ramp slots.

As a finisher I was going for:
- Creatures that attack for 3+ each turn, or tutors for them
- Equipment that adds to damage, and tutors for them
- Repeatable damage/lifeloss for 2+ each turn
- Repeatable token makers
- Planeswalkers that can kill the opponent

Basically, Shardless and Teeg don't count, but Bloodbraid and DRS do count. Sound like a reasonable cutoff point?

[Echelon]

- Repeatable damage/lifeloss for 2+ each turn

...

Basically, Shardless and Teeg don't count, but Bloodbraid and DRS do count. Sound like a reasonable cutoff point?

- Repeatable, unblockable damage/lifeloss for >=2/turn

I mean, that's why DRS is so dangerous - you can have all the board presence in the world, it's not going to save you from DRS.

And how would you want to deal w/ Scavenging Ooze? I don't like to classify it as interaction, but am inclined to view it as a finisher (that, yes, occasionally fucks with your opponents plan).

But yeah, sounds like a fine cutoff!

[Navsi]

- Repeatable, unblockable damage/lifeloss for >=2/turn

I mean, that's why DRS is so dangerous - you can have all the board presence in the world, it's not going to save you from DRS.

And how would you want to deal w/ Scavenging Ooze? I don't like to classify it as interaction, but am inclined to view it as a finisher (that, yes, occasionally fucks with your opponents plan).

But yeah, sounds like a fine cutoff!

Yeah, combat damage goes in the 'creatures that attack for 3+'. DRS would be a finisher (and stabilization, and ramp).

I was considering Scavenging Ooze as Stabilization and Finisher. It's a creature that gains life, and it can swing for more than 2 damage a turn.

[Echelon]

I was considering Scavenging Ooze as Stabilization and Finisher. It's a creature that gains life, and it can swing for more than 2 damage a turn.

Dude, you're disagreeing with yourself.


- Creatures that attack for 3+ each turn, or tutors for them

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this one but that's why I had some trouble w/ Scavenging Ooze. Right off the bat it doesn't meet the criterium to be a finisher, but w/ a single creature card in either graveyard (which is not that farfetched) it does.

[Navsi]

I didn't say 'creatures with 3+ base power'. I said 'creatures that attack for 3+'. I'm including Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary in my numbers for other decks, so I'm going to count Scavenging Ooze as well.

[cherson]

I didn't say 'creatures with 3+ base power'. I said 'creatures that attack for 3+'. I'm including Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary in my numbers for other decks, so I'm going to count Scavenging Ooze as well.
I play ooze as well and count 0.5 finisher and 0.5 interaction. It is gy hate only and 'can' get big that's why 0.5...
Sounds reasonable [emoji3]

I think Echelon is right it has to be considered that all finishers cmc3 can be killed by abrupt decay and deed quite easy. Killing our finishers is not that easy (sigarda, thragtusk)

Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk

[Navsi]

Some preliminary numbers for you guys. I'm including Wasteland as Interaction now, which is why the numbers are all high. I have been being generally generous with the numbers - I'm not using half values. Snapcaster is interaction, consistency and stabilization, as is Shardless Agent.

Maverick:
Ramp: 9.1
Interaction: 24.9
Consistency: 13.0
Stabilization: 18.9
Finisher: 20.0
Average CMC: 1.94

Jund:
Ramp: 4
Interaction: 26.8
Consistency: 8.4
Stabilization: 14.7
Finisher: 12.0
Average CMC: 1.99

BUG Midrange:
Ramp: 4
Interaction: 22.6
Consistency: 15.5
Stabilization: 14.8
Finisher: 9.1
Average CMC: 1.61

Bant Midrange:
Ramp: 7.5
Interaction: 24.4
Consistency: 14.2
Stabilization: 15.5
Finisher: 17.4
Average CMC: 1.53

Points of note:
- Average CMC was generally just under 2. I think we can probably go to 2.5 or so, but higher than that may be a problem. The highest CMC of any of these decks was a Maverick deck with 2.13.
- Less than ~20 interactive cards is probably a mistake. I can't find a single non-combo deck with fewer than that. Some of those slots are easy to fill (we have ~13 in the core) but we do want a large percentage of our flex slots to deal with the opponent's board position in some way.
- We can run relatively few finishers if we want to. We already have as many as 10 in the core, and Shardless gets by on less than that. They supplement their threats with Shardless Agent and Snapcaster beatdown, but we have Witness and Veteran Explorer for the same results. They are also better at protecting their threats with countermagic than us, however, so we probably still want some resilient choices. Bant runs ~20 threats and countermagic, so I don't think we'll end up causing problems if we end upon similar numbers, although it's probably not necessary.

[Brael]

Congrats on the result! It seems your list is doing quite well. As for shuffles, I just do 7 mashes and then offer my deck to my opponent. Takes me a couple of seconds each.

Ya, the list is doing fantastic. The problem to me with 7 mashes is that I'm looking for actual randomization in my deck because I want to take advantage of the deck composition going from say 19 lands/46 cards in deck to 18 lands/45 cards in deck. It might seem like a very minor thing but with as much digging as Tops do, and all the other CA, deck thinning is actually a very real thing. Trying to get similar results to the MTGO shuffler basically.

Which brings me back to doing a couple mashes and offering my deck. The way I do it, takes 12 mashes for sufficient randomization, depending on the match I often compromise on time and only do say 6 or 7. 6 or 7 mashes still takes me about 15 seconds though. I'm pretty sure that by abandoning the mash I can get it down to 10 seconds with a better shuffle. At an average of 10 shuffles per game, that results in 150 more seconds in game 3, or 2.5 minutes.

I find the decks biggest enemy is the clock, so that seems appealing.

[cherson]

Some preliminary numbers for you guys. I'm including Wasteland as Interaction now, which is why the numbers are all high. I have been being generally generous with the numbers - I'm not using half values. Snapcaster is interaction, consistency and stabilization, as is Shardless Agent.


do u have a list how much points u distributed per card?
In my opinion it is not correct that shardless agent has full value. quite often it is still a random flip.
can u post the result for the standard rhino list as well? hard for me to compare the results and as mentioned earlier in the previous list we had 0.5 value.
my list for example ends up.
15.5 removal/interaction
15.5 library manipulation/CA
14.5 finishers
10.5 ramp
21 lands

seems very, very low compared to yours.
if we do it like this we should agree on the basics first..

[Brael]

I'm grouping tutoring/filtering/draw together since the general consensus is that Painful Truths, Sensei's Divining Top and Baleful Strix all fulfil pretty similar roles in terms of increasing our deck's consistency and letting us see more cards. I guess "Consistency" should really be this header. Thoughts on whether Courser of Kruphix should count here?


I would count Courser, it's extra cards and it has an absurd interaction with SDT.



Ramp is relatively unique to us, but we do see similar counterparts in other Deathrite Shaman decks. Maverick probably plays similar numbers to us (maybe a few more) and both Shardless and Jund play DRS as well. It might be interesting to see how their mana curves scale with the number of Deathrites / other ramp creatures they are playing. If playing 4 manadorks for ramp moves the average CMC from (for example) 2 to 2.4, we can use that to determine where our CMCs should be averaging out given that we're playing ~10 mana guys.


Maverick also plays 4 Wastelands. The combination of Wasteland + DRS means they accelerate to 3 and stay around 3 during the game. Our curve is higher than theirs in most builds (I think mine is about equal). On the other hand I find that we plateau around 5. Games can and do go past 5, but 5 is where our mana development slows down.

If you're really interested in mana development, in the past year I've made two programs capable of playing two different decks, Modern Knightfall and Legacy Burn. Although I delete most data, I do still have quite a bit if you want to look and see how various land counts impact the size of your cards. Without getting all that deep into the numbers, I think you would be absolutely shocked at the land counts that prove most consistent. Essentially, the results were that just about everyone underplays their lands. It's the #1 reason I'm such a big proponent of Dryad Arbor, simply having the ability to get another 4 T1 mana sources when you need them off of GSZ is a huge boost to consistency. Anyways, I have a bunch of graphs and such that correlate win turns and lands played, along with deck curves to those lands played.

I've talked with Echelon about this subject a bit too. But to give you an idea, in order to consistently hit 3 drops on turn 3 all of my testing has shown that you ideally want 26 lands. Though that's without mana acceleration... it would only take a few minutes to set up the test, perhaps I'll add a Birds of Paradise or something (to mimic DRS... it's just easier to not deal with the exile a land issue) and see how the numbers change. The other thing I found is that the most powerful cards in the game are cards that are both mana sinks and mana sources. Deathrite Shaman is the most obvious, but Mutavault is another, other creature lands, and... surprise surprise, Ash Barrens also fits that category, which is another reason I like it. You can expand that definition further to include cards like SDT which find us lands, and are an optional way to spend mana.


Stabilization is a category I've added in since I last posted about this stuff. We need some number of card slots which can help us to regain board control against threatening opponents. The deck has plenty of this naturally - Pernicious Deed, Thragtusk, Deathrite and Zenith - but this is still something to keep an eye on as a category we can't afford to skimp too hard on - as Arianrhod can tell you from his work on the colorless Nic Fit builds, you do have to have something available to clean up Delvers. This usually means either X-for-1 removal, lifegain/removal creatures (Thrag, Shriekmaw, Huntmaster) or multiple bodies. Punishing Fire and other recursive removal probably can be counted here too.

Meren and Scavenging Ooze are both good for stabilization. I would argue Ranger of Eos is good too because he tutors 2x DRS, but maybe it's better to just list DRS in that case, which you're already doing.

Edit: I suspect this is the road we'll ultimately go down so I'm going to list my deck using your criteria, I'm only counting MB. I'll list the cards I count as each incase there's any disagreement.
SE Fit:
Ramp: 11 (4x GSZ, 4x Vet, 2x DRS, 1x Phyrexian Tower)
Interaction: 23 (2x DRS, 1x Eternal Witness, 1x Meren of Clan Nel-Toth, 1x Qasali Pridemage, 1x Ranger of Eos, 1x Scavenging Ooze, 1x Sylvan Safekeeper, 1x Cavern of Souls, 1x Volrath's Stronghold, 4x Cabal Therapy, 4x GSZ, 2x Abrupt Decay, 3x Path to Exile, 1x Pernicious Deed)
Consistency: 17 (1x Courser of Kruphix, 2x Dark Confidant, 1x Eternal Witness, 1x Ranger of Eos, 1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth, 2x Tireless Tracker, 4x SDT, 4x GSZ, 1x Volrath's)
Stabilization: 11 (1x Courser of Kruphix, 2x DRS, 1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth, 1x Ranger of Eos, 1x Scavenging Ooze, 1x Volrath's Stronghold, 4x GSZ)
Finisher: 16 (2x DRS, 1x Endless One, 1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth, 2x Monastery Mentor, 1x Qasali Pridemage, 1x Ranger of Eos, 1x Scavenging Ooze, 1x Sigarda, Host of Herons, 2x Tireless Tracker, 4x GSZ)
Average CMC: 68 mana pips total, either 1.11 if you include lands or 1.74 if you only include stuff you cast.

[Navsi]

do u have a list how much points u distributed per card?
In my opinion it is not correct that shardless agent has full value. quite often it is still a random flip.
can u post the result for the standard rhino list as well? hard for me to compare the results and as mentioned earlier in the previous list we had 0.5 value.
my list for example ends up.
15.5 removal/interaction
15.5 library manipulation/CA
14.5 finishers
10.5 ramp
21 lands

seems very, very low compared to yours.
if we do it like this we should agree on the basics first..

As an example, this deck (Bant Stoneblade):
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13862&d=281914&f=LE

Ramp: 7 (3 DRS 4 Heirarch)
Interaction: 26 (4 Wasteland, 4 Stoneforge, 2 Clique, 4 Daze, 4 FOW, 4 Swords, 2 Jace, 1 SOFAI, 1 Jitte)
Consistency: 13 (4 Stoneforge, 4 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder, 2 Jace, 1 SOFAI, 1 Library)
Stabilization: 15 (3 Deathrite, 4 Stoneforge, 4 True-Name, 1 Batterskull, 2 Jace, 1 Jitte)
Finisher: 18 (3 Deathrite, 4 Stoneforge, 4 True-Name, 2 Clique, 1 Batterskull, 2 Jace, 1 SOFAI, 1 Jitte)

And a Nic Fit list:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12825&d=274449&f=LE

Ramp: 9 (2 DRS 3 Veteran Explorer 4 GSZ)
Interaction: 20 (1 Teeg, 1 Witness, 2 Decay, 4 GSZ, 4 Therapy, 3 Swords, 1 vindicate, 1 Garruk, 3 Deed)
Consistency: 12 (1 Witness, 1 Nissa, 2 Tracker, 4 GSZ, 2 Top, 1 Truths, 1 Library)
Stabilization: 17 (1 Baneslayer, 1 Dromoka, 2 DRS, 1 Witness, 1 Ooze, 1 Rhino, 1 Thragtusk, 4 Zenith, 3 Deed, 1 Garruk, 1 Sorin)
Finisher: 17 (1 Baneslayer, 1 Dromoka, 2 DRS, 1 Nissa, 1 Ooze, 1 rhino, 1 Thragtusk, 2 Tracker, 4 Zenith, 1 Garruk, 1 Sorin, 1 Sigarda)

With respect to Shardless, it's definitely a consistency card (since it always provides CA), and it can generally be expected to stabilize the board, since you generally get another body, a removal spell, or a spell that finds you another body. It could be argued as not being consistent enough to qualify as interaction - might instead be 1/0.5/0.5/0.5 consistency / stabilize / interact/ finisher.

[Brael]

I have tons to do this weekend, but this mana acceleration question has been interesting enough that I'm putting it off.

I don't want to get too far into the details of my simulator deck because #1 it's not Nic Fit and #2 it's much more linear but there's still a lot of crossover to be learned.

Earlier today I added a manadork to it (something similar to a Birds of Paradise) and ran 1000 game trials at everything from 18 to 30 mana with and without 4 manadorks. My system for data analysis is slow and error prone, so I'm not going to look at all 26 decks right now but instead look for some general themes. If anyone else wants to look through it, let me know and I'll see what I can do to send it to you.

Anyways, the optimal number of land in decks is interesting, I've never seen anyone other than me mention this in an article (probably because I'm the only person crazy enough to try the simulation approach) but the graph for average win turns and lands per deck is actually W shaped. It looks something like this:
http://jacobaldridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/w-curve.png

In practice the curve is a bit steeper on the left, and a lot less steep on the right. What this means is that the penalty in Magic for playing too few lands is very high, but the penalty for playing too many is actually rather low. How this all relates to manabases, is that the deck I'm using for these tests has found the bottom most points (fastest decks) on the curve to happen at about 22 and 27 lands. With the manadorks that shifted to 21 and 26. Which is basically saying that 21/4 is as good as 22/0.

More interesting to me though, was that a list with no manadorks was significantly faster than a list with them. Remember, I'm using a BoP though, I'm pretty sure DRS changes this because it can hit the opponent and Vet is 2 mana which also changes things a bit. I can however cross reference this with my test deck in my simulator from early this year, which went as high as wanting 28 lands and 2 mana dorks for an optimal setup despite having access to 8 manadorks and lower land count possibilities.

Basically, what this means is that lands are generally worth more than the manadork acceleration but that it doesn't hold true for DRS because DRS also hits the opponent.

Going down this road ultimately puts us in the same spot as Maverick. I've been noticing my lists keep drifting in that direction as well with KotR's, more DRS, and so on. I've yet to figure out if that's a good thing or not.

A Sol land that we could use would be huge.

Edit: Rewrote a paragraph to be more clear.

[Navsi]

a list with no manadorks was significantly faster than a list with them. Remember, I'm using a BoP though, I'm pretty sure DRS changes this because it can hit the opponent and Vet is 2 mana which also changes things a bit. I can however cross reference this with my test deck in my simulator from early this year, which went as high as wanting 28 lands and 2 mana dorks for an optimal setup despite having access to 8 manadorks and lower land count possibilities.

Do you mean that 22/0 is faster than 22/4, or 26/0 is faster than 22/4?

[Brael]

Do you mean that 22/0 is faster than 22/4, or 26/0 is faster than 22/4?

22/0 was significantly faster than 22/4. Part of this is due to the type of deck I use for testing (a sligh/burn type thing) but the other part was that BoP just doesn't do anything. It slowed down the fastest wins and couldn't convert that mana provided (or spent) into something productive later in the game. But 26/0 was even faster than that (which is a very normal result). As I type this I actually have another set of tests running, using a BoP with haste. Haste is very under rated, and it's basically what makes BoP terrible. When you get a manadork with haste, you get Fastbond which is banned. I expect mana dorks to perform much more favorably with haste, I'm not quite sure where that gets us because we don't actually have mana dorks with haste but I suppose it's somewhere... perhaps Elvish Spirit Guide or in the enchantment build Exploration.

I'm not sure what the threshold is on doing something productive once you no longer need the mana. DRS is very clearly over that, and I would say that anecdotally Explorer is too because 2 lands early on is just so powerful. But I would probably shy away from other manadorks aside from Dryad Arbor due to the GSZ interaction.

So I think that there's a hardcap on the number of viable MB ramp cards at 14: 4 Vet, 4 DRS, 4 GSZ, 2 Phyrexian Tower.

Edit: Even with haste, generic manadorks don't outperform simply having a land. I'm unsure of an explanation as to why, it could have to do with the creatures power, it could be due to sample size (1000 is low), or it could just be down to deck strategy, or even a combination of all of the above.

Edit 2: Being less cryptic about deck speed numbers, in the batch I just ran (which I should reiterate is not Nic Fit, but still applicable for the purposes of a manabase)
22/0 had an average turn of 4.64
22/4 had an average turn of 4.68
22/4 + haste had an average turn of 4.64
26/0 had an average turn of 4.54

Edit 3: I've thought about this for the past few hours, and I think the reason mana dorks rate so poorly is that they take 3 turns to pull ahead, and they usually take your most important turns. This is fine in formats like Standard, but in Legacy the power level is so high that cards need to start producing value faster than that. This probably plays into why the opening of GSZ to DRS is a weak opening, because you need an additional turn to pay for the mana, but GSZ into Dryad Arbor is really no different than getting a CIPT land. It's productive 1 turn sooner and therefore pays for the investment one turn sooner. Though casting a DRS from your hand is superior to either.



I think we should check how much 'points' are needed for each role to make the deck even more competitive and balanced.

ramp for example: I am completely fine with 10.5 (4xvex, 4xgsz, 1xdrs, 1xste, 0.5 tower)
depends on the different deck types and your cmc curve but in general I think this kind of 'analytics' are very helpful.


The numbers you need are going to vary by meta and by your decks goal. My goal for example was to get the same consistency in a non blue deck, that the blue decks have. I managed to pull that off but I'm unsure if it's the best way to go about things. I was crazy enough to build a Magic playing AI using two different decks to answer some deck construction questions that can only be answered with data rather than averages and mathematics but I can't apply my system to Nic Fit because anything modal is really, really difficult to explain to a computer and GSZ is basically the epitome of that. I have some ideas to try and solve that problem but they're months away from me having the time to seriously work on it.

What I've found though is that I don't think you're asking the right questions for slots. The question we should be asking isn't how much ramp do we need, but rather do we have things to do at all possible mana outcomes. This is why I'm a big fan of optional mana sinks.

To borrow a wikipedia image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Binary_tree.svg

That's a tree, ignoring the numbers in that example, your first node represents your mana on turn 0. Your possible mana on turn 1 (the next ring of nodes down) can remain 0 if you played nothing, can be 1 if you made a land drop, played a non mana granting spell, or can be 2 if you made a land drop and played a DRS. Now, going into turn 2 you have the starting points of 0, 1, 2. With the possibility of a T2 land drop this becomes 0, 1, 2, 3. The question then becomes, does your deck have the right card composition such that you can reliably use either 1, 2, or 3 mana? Tireless Trackers and Coursers use up 3 well, but those cards are bad when you only have 1 mana to spend. Similarly, lots of 1's can be nice but you need to have a lot of 1 drops in order to use up 3 mana with them on T2, and if you do that you're inviting problems down the line.

So how this all relates to ramp is, what happens when you don't have your ramp cards? I'm pretty vocal on this point, because it's something of a pitfall that I think a lot of people fall into with ramp decks (in all formats). If you need 3 mana to function, you keep a 2 lander, your T1 is a DRS to get you to 3 on T2, and that DRS eats a Lightning Bolt, your entire deck has been shut down. Even when you can ramp, you need a lot of low mana ways to spend that mana, in addition to your bombs.

With a high enough curve you basically force your deck into only working reliably with Phyrexian Towers.

So to go back to your question of roles, before you ever look into ideas like card manipulation, removal, etc I think you have to build your deck skeleton around the idea of mana sources, mana sinks, and mana curve and based on finite outcomes using discrete math rather than the typical probability and averages.

-------------------------------------------------
Another edit, some random brainstorming. Has anyone ever tried Thawing Glaciers in Nic Fit? It would require a few structural changes, but it's one of those cards that dramatically shifts how many lands you need in the deck to be optimal since it's guaranteed land drops. It's also both a mana source and a mana sink.

[Brael]

Looked at one other thing in this data set. It's late and I'm tired so I didn't mark down the probabilities of each mana outcome but I did look at 22 and 26 lands and chart the average you should expect by turn, up to turn 6 (my test data wins by then usually, so the samples get too small after that)
22
T1 - .95
T2 - 1.74
T3 - 2.36
T4 - 2.85
T5 - 3.00
T6 - 3.05

26
T1 - .99
T2 - 1.92
T3 - 2.75
T4 - 3.43
T5 - 3.90
T6 - 4.01

So hopefully that helps answer the curve question a bit. With some acceleration (like say GSZ into Arbor to function as 26 land) you'll plateau at 4 mana by T6, and without it you'll be at 3 mana. Going a bit earlier and looking at T3 which is Legacys fundamental turn you're looking at 2.36 vs 2.75 which is pretty close. The gap doesn't really get substantial in my opinion until T5. And I've noticed that I usually plateau at 5 mana, so the mana acceleration package is probably worth +1 mana to the T3+ numbers.

So basically in your curve, even with acceleration, you're looking at the typical mana development of
1-2-3-4-5-5

So if that's where the game ends (we're a bit slower than that). Filling out the curve is possible with the following combinations (capping at 7 cards, because the rest are land)
T1 - 1 (1)
T2 - 2 (1), T1+T1 (2)
T3 - 3 (1), T2+T1 (2), T1+T1+T1 (3)
T4 - 4 (1), T3+T1 (2), T2+T2 (2), T1+T1+T1+T1 (4), T2+T1+T1 (3)
T5 - 5 (1), T4+T1 (2), T3+T2 (2), T1+T1+T1+T1+T1 (5), T3+T1+T1 (3), T2+T2+T1 (3)

If you were to add all of that up, capping cards spent at 7 you get the following proportions.
T1 - 8 (36%)
T2 - 7 (32%)
T3 - 4 (18%)
T4 - 2 (9%)
T5 - 1 (5%)

Which, if you apply that to 39 cards you get
1 drops - 14
2 drops - 12-13
3 drops - 7
4 drops - 3-4
5 drops - 2

But, this comes with a few inbuilt costs, the first is that it assumes you're giving 1 GSZ slot to a 1 drop (spread the GSZ's out, I like using 1, 2, 4, 5, which averages at 3 and mirrors what I get, I rarely grab the 3 drop CA guys), and it assumes you've got atleast another 6 slots going towards acceleration on T1.

I think that it's probably the ideal curve though. Or atleast, it's the most ideal that I've been able to reason out from redoing this work now, and doing it initially when we made SE fit 8? months ago. In practice though, I run a pretty low curve version of Nic Fit and I've never been able to hit this type of curve. The trickiest part to manage I've found is the 3 drops. I'm low on 2's and high on 3's. This type of curve also tends to not be very friendly to Deed.

[Navsi]

@Brael

You're using a Sligh type build for this testing, right?

Have you considered trying mana dorks in a list with no other 1-drops, and a curve of 2/3/4 drops? Obviously the turn will be slower but I think that might be a more accurate model of a Nic Fit deck. Might also be worth trying, say, a deck with 22 lands, 4 Birds, 4 Birds that make 2 mana, and 4 2CMC birds that make 2 mana. Then have the rest of the cards be blank (or alternatively, be Painful Truths) except for ~10 5-6 mana cards that immediately win the game - representing Deeds and finishers that immediately swing the game in our favour.

[Brael]

@Brael

You're using a Sligh type build for this testing, right?

Have you considered trying mana dorks in a list with no other 1-drops, and a curve of 2/3/4 drops? Obviously the turn will be slower but I think that might be a more accurate model of a Nic Fit deck. Might also be worth trying, say, a deck with 22 lands, 4 Birds, 4 Birds that make 2 mana, and 4 2CMC birds that make 2 mana. Then have the rest of the cards be blank (or alternatively, be Painful Truths) except for ~10 5-6 mana cards that immediately win the game - representing Deeds and finishers that immediately swing the game in our favour.

I hadn't considered it, mainly because I haven't found any 4 drops that seem sufficiently powerful enough for that sort of list. I can try something similar though. Results run at 18, 22, and 26 lands, with either 0/4 BoP, 0/4 Veteran Explorer, 0/2 Sakura-Tribe Elder, 8 Sigarda, and then the remaining slots filled with Painful Truths. The 18 land deck was only run with mana accelerants. In total there were 5 configurations.

Here's the results, 1000 games per deck:
18/10 = 11.114 turns
22/0 = 13.279 turns
22/10 = 12.228 turns
26/0 = 13.081 turns
26/10 = 13.760 turns

Mana development in the 22/0 deck was
T1 - 0.696
T2 - 1.193
T3 - 1.667
T4 - 2.083
T5 - 2.521
T6 - 2.961
T7 - 3.400
T8 - 3.803
T9 - 4.254
T10 - 4.678
T11 - 5.147
T12 - 5.626

Mana development in the 22/10 deck was
T1 - 0.991
T2 - 1.929
T3 - 2.727
T4 - 3.404
T5 - 4.015
T6 - 4.556
T7 - 5.047
T8 - 5.535
T9 - 5.986
T10 - 6.553
T11 - 7.118
T12 - 7.667

If you want anymore details on one of the decks let me know.

The mana count on the 22/0 deck is odd, but I ran the tests 3 times. I think it's an issue with mulligan code (mulligan decisions require strategy specific tuning, and I didn't get that deep into changing things, just adding card types). But accuracy should go up as the turns get deeper in, or I could shrink the sample size a bit and look at the mana growth only in games where the starting hand contained 2+ lands.

Edit: Did precisely what I just mentioned in the above paragraph. Sorry for the edits, but I tend to update this stuff a lot as I think of questions or better ways to do things and then just update my findings. This should be a more accurate mana development for the decks, though it does shrink the sample sizes considerably in the early turns.

22/0 deck
T1 - 1.000
T2 - 1.709
T3 - 2.134
T4 - 2.435
T5 - 2.752
T6 - 3.144
T7 - 3.524
T8 - 3.871
T9 - 4.272
T10 - 4.669
T11 - 5.112
T12 - 5.572

22/10 deck
T1 - 1.348
T2 - 2.185
T3 - 3.035
T4 - 3.783
T5 - 4.422
T6 - 5.018
T7 - 5.574
T8 - 6.131
T9 - 6.646
T10 - 7.209
T11 - 7.685
T12 - 8.068

[Navsi]

@Brael

Can you record fizzle numbers? Say, number of games where we don't have 3 mana available by turn 5?

[Brael]

@Brael

Can you record fizzle numbers? Say, number of games where we don't have 3 mana available by turn 5?

See my edit. I provided some more realistic mana numbers by excluding data where there wasn't enough mana to curve properly in the early turns, basically compensating for my mulligan code seemingly not working correctly.

Under 3 mana by turn 5 is easy.
18/10 - 9.9%
22/0 - 50.1%
22/10 - 5.2%
26/0 - 33.8%
26/10 - 1.9%

Edit: Procrastinating my homework more. I don't want to make a habit of providing these types of details, not because I mind doing it but because it's a real hassle. I'm happy to provide the data for others to do it though. I always struggle with providing information like this though because I think posts which spam a bunch of numbers make for bad posts. Most people just see the numbers and tune out but I don't think graphics do it justice, not everyone is a numbers person though and there's nothing wrong with that. I've just never found a good way to convey the information.

I'm trying it this time in spreadsheet cells with percentages. The numbers are how likely you are to be at each mana outcome on a particular turn so that you can figure out your curve. I think this is a better way to do things than looking at averages. Though it takes longer to compile the information.
http://imgur.com/a/r3V6Q

The ranges in green are probably what you want to shoot for with a curve to operate on

[Echelon]

OMG so much awesomeness. Can't pull myself away from The Witcher 3 at the moment, but I'll start pitching in tomorrow.

Some great stuff guys!

[Navsi]

Brael, would you be interested in in sharing your code? I'd love to have a look at it.

[Brael]

Brael, would you be interested in in sharing your code? I'd love to have a look at it.

Sure, but I should warn you it's pretty messy (cleaning it up is one of my projects scheduled with it for winter break when I have some time)

If you run it (it's in Python 3) I would suggest running it on a ramdrive, my database updates are very time consuming and a regular hard drive is too slow to do it well (what takes 20 min on a ramdrive takes 6 hours on my hd, also a project for winter break).

Here's the code, it will remain available for a week, just ask if you have questions on it.
http://pastebin.com/U090D2yW

[Navsi]

Sure, but I should warn you it's pretty messy (cleaning it up is one of my projects scheduled with it for winter break when I have some time)

If you run it (it's in Python 3) I would suggest running it on a ramdrive, my database updates are very time consuming and a regular hard drive is too slow to do it well (what takes 20 min on a ramdrive takes 6 hours on my hd, also a project for winter break).

Here's the code, it will remain available for a week, just ask if you have questions on it.
http://pastebin.com/U090D2yW

Thanks! Python isn't the language I'm most used to, but I'll have a dig around.

[Navsi]

@Brael

The code you sent me never adds copies of Sigarda to the deck? She isn't listed in BuildDeck().

[Brael]

@Brael

The code you sent me never adds copies of Sigarda to the deck? She isn't listed in BuildDeck().

Hmm, you're right. That's quite a bug (and a good example of why I need to revamp that whole system to just use one list come break time), it shouldn't impact the mana development I posted before though which is the part I was concerned with. One other error you'll find is that if you inspect the database, you will see something odd with Truths/Sigarda though, my columns on Sigarda/Painful Truths have their names flipped.

Ran a set with the Sigarda thing fixed, 26/10 was the fastest deck, by far. But that probably makes sense considering you can't really impact the clock until 5 mana, so the faster you reach that the faster you win.

[Navsi]

Hmm, you're right. That's quite a bug (and a good example of why I need to revamp that whole system to just use one list come break time), it shouldn't impact the mana development I posted before though which is the part I was concerned with. One other error you'll find is that if you inspect the database, you will see something odd with Truths/Sigarda though, my columns on Sigarda/Painful Truths have their names flipped. I wonder what that does to game lengths.

Wouldn't it make the mana development a bit faster since there are less non-mana cards in the deck?

[Brael]

Wouldn't it make the mana development a bit faster since there are less non-mana cards in the deck?

It makes it a little slower since the decks were x mana/52 cards instead of x/60 but it's not a substantial impact, similar to what you get if you removed the mana dorks. So 22/10 is going to be about what you saw with 22/0 before (maybe this is a good way to express the issue of going over 60 too...)

I just ran another set with the Sigarda thing fixed. The previous post had their average win turns, here's the average mana development.
22/10
T1 - 1.295
T2 - 2.095
T3 - 2.890
T4 - 3.572
T5 - 4.096
T6 - 4.586
T7 - 4.949
T8 - 5.128
T9 - 5.157
T10 - 5.361
T11 - 5.583
T12 - 5.746

26/10
T1 - 1.317
T2 - 2.122
T3 - 3.011
T4 - 3.817
T5 - 4.512
T6 - 5.108
T7 - 5.572
T8 - 5.774
T9 - 5.931
T10 - 6.271
T11 - 6.552
T12 - 7.089

[volrathxp]

I'll be posting my report to reddit like tomorrow (and linking to it from here) but I just wanted you guys to know, went 4-3 at the Legacy Classic in Columbus today with Sneak Fit. Ended up directly in 32nd.

Deck feels like hot fire. I'm in love.

[fireiced]

Was trying out Abzan Fit, absolutely crushed all fair matchups but died miserably to OmniTell & TES

16 creatures
2 DRS
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

1 planeswalker
1 Nissa, Vital Force

21 spells
3 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
4 GSZ
3 Sensei Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Painful Truths
3 Pernicious Deed

22 lands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Dryad Abor
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold


SB
1 Ob Nixilis
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 To the Slaughter
1 Gaddock Tegg
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Golgari Charm

My MB is a little skewed as I expected a load of Reanimator, Dark Depths based decks, UR Delver & Eldrazi. Completely trashed them with Nissa + Dromoka sealing the deal extremely quick.

SB wise I love the walkers and really really wanna add another Nissa, Vital Force in the 75. Ironically Ob Nixilis did a lot of work as a swiss army knife, killing big fatties like Oblivion Sower & Kotr while also clocking Miracles with his ultimate (they cant really remove walkers outside of Council Judgement) :cool:
I hate the Thalias, they did not do much vs matchups where it mattered even when coming down on T2 when I am on the play. Will change into other forms of combo hate. Thing is not really sure which combo hate to use.

[Echelon]

@fireiced: Ethersworn Canonist is a pretty good hatebear.

[Navsi]

A few other things I've noticed in your code:

- You mulligan to 3 if no creatures - I imagine this skews things when you're running the number of noncreature cards the current test has. Particularly the 22/0 and 26/0 decks, which have only Sigarda for creatures.
- You also bin lands and keep nonlands when scrying, which I imagine reduces the expected odds by a bit.
- If I'm reading it right, the ai will prioritize casting Painful Truths over making mana guys because it values drawing cards more than making late creatures. That'll mean that sometimes you'll have 3 mana t3 and would have 5 mana t5, but if you spend turn 3 casting Truths over Veteran (with pays out t5) and turn 4 casting truths + veteran (paying out t6) over STE, you won't hit when you would have otherwise. Incidentally this would also make the clock a lot slower since the deck won't cast Sigarda unless it has zero copies of Painful Truths left in hand. This might mean that your 'game ends' numbers are actually the point at which the active player casts their seventh Painful Truths and dies, actually. This is supported by your average win numbers for some of the decks - for example, your 18/10 deck had an average end of turn 11, which would require your first attack with Sigarda to be on turn 7, but the deck doesn't expect five mana until after turn six.
- Painful truths is evaluated for play priority as if it draws 3, but doesn't actually draw cards in its additionalplay() script.

[Brael]

A few other things I've noticed in your code:

- You mulligan to 3 if no creatures - I imagine this skews things when you're running the number of noncreature cards the current test has. Particularly the 22/0 and 26/0 decks, which have only Sigarda for creatures.
- You also bin lands and keep nonlands when scrying, which I imagine reduces the expected odds by a bit.
- If I'm reading it right, the ai will prioritize casting Painful Truths over making mana guys because it values drawing cards more than making late creatures. That'll mean that sometimes you'll have 3 mana t3 and would have 5 mana t5, but if you spend turn 3 casting Truths over Veteran (with pays out t5) and turn 4 casting truths + veteran (paying out t6) over STE, you won't hit when you would have otherwise. Incidentally this would also make the clock a lot slower since the deck won't cast Sigarda unless it has zero copies of Painful Truths left in hand. This might mean that your 'game ends' numbers are actually the point at which the active player casts their seventh Painful Truths and dies, actually. This is supported by your average win numbers for some of the decks - for example, your 18/10 deck had an average end of turn 11, which would require your first attack with Sigarda to be on turn 7, but the deck doesn't expect five mana until after turn six.
- Painful truths is evaluated for play priority as if it draws 3, but doesn't actually draw cards in its additionalplay() script.

Ya, the code is built for another deck type, I didn't want to just write over what I had. The player setup is built so that you can add additional players which come with their own decklists, strategies, and mulligan rules, that's P1 and P2. I literally just took the sligh deck and added cards to it, so it was applying a different strategy from the one the decklist suggested it should use. I figured it wouldn't be a big deal for mana development because every deck wants to make land drops but I wouldn't look at any deeper analysis than that without a more midrange specific AI. The eventual goal is to create a range of decks so that's why it's set up that way and why I'm not trying to look into it for Nic Fit much further than just playing out lands. Doing it correctly involves adding a P3 for Nic Fit and telling it to use that over P1 when the active/non active players are set.

I'll look at the cards drawn thing, I thought I was handling that in the card play method that it inherits because I didn't want to essentially duplicate data in giving it a variable for cards drawn and then a function to draw them. It's possible it was something I was working on and never finished though, I know that's how it used to work though because I ran a bunch of tests with various cantrips against each other (that's why Probe, Serum Visions, and Preordain are in the card list). I may have changed something after that and broke it. The life loss is an easy fix, I'll just tell it to not cast Painful Truths if it's lethal.

Edit: I see what happened now, I was referencing Serum Visions as a refresher for how to write Painful Truths and I didn't notice I put the draw card function into additionalPlay. This is why I say I'm a really bad programmer.

[volrathxp]

As promised, here's my report from SCG Columbus on Sneak Fit!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/5cw97k/sneaking_into_32nd_and_having_a_fit_while_doing/

[fireiced]

@fireiced: Ethersworn Canonist is a pretty good hatebear.

ok will try it out this weekend :D

[Meyer]

Can confirm Nissa Vital Force deserves being considered as a powerful Walker in nearly all lists. She helps to stabilize, has lots of utility and could also be a wincon. But do we need to side her out vs decks with Rishadan Port? Nissa has so much potential to take over the game, but without the 5/5 land effectively protecting her she is usually just a costly Eternal Witness.

[Navsi]

Can confirm Nissa Vital Force deserves being considered as a powerful Walker in nearly all lists. She helps to stabilize, has lots of utility and could also be a wincon. But do we need to side her out vs decks with Rishadan Port? Nissa has so much potential to take over the game, but without the 5/5 land effectively protecting her she is usually just a costly Eternal Witness.

I think she still stays. The main decks that apply pressure with Port currently are DnT and Lands.

- Against DnT, buying back a Pernicious Deed is huge, and they're generally low on card advantage so the emblem is a big difference.
- Against lands, they don't really pressure that hard in terms of damage, so the emblem is relatively likely to go off, and is very relevant against all their mana denial.

Also if they're Porting the 5/5, they aren't porting your other lands - she's still +1 mana per turn which is relevant.

[cherson]

hi, recently I see more and more winter orbs in the sideboard of all the blue tempo decks.
does it really hurt us? I didn't play against it yet but just want to know your opinion.
most of the time we use all of our resources and waiting a few turns before we can answer a threat seems an issue.
especially if we need to pop deed.

[Brael]

hi, recently I see more and more winter orbs in the sideboard of all the blue tempo decks.
does it really hurt us? I didn't play against it yet but just want to know your opinion.
most of the time we use all of our resources and waiting a few turns before we can answer a threat seems an issue.
especially if we need to pop deed.

It depends on your curve. With some manadorks (DRS is fantastic here) and a low curve it doesn't hurt much. If you're routinely tapping 6-7 lands a turn it hurts a lot. Winter Orb really messes up the SDT plan, unless you have a way to draw 2 cards a turn like Courser to always get a mana and a card.

[Orms-by-Gore]

I think she still stays. The main decks that apply pressure with Port currently are DnT and Lands.

- Against DnT, buying back a Pernicious Deed is huge, and they're generally low on card advantage so the emblem is a big difference.
- Against lands, they don't really pressure that hard in terms of damage, so the emblem is relatively likely to go off, and is very relevant against all their mana denial.

Also if they're Porting the 5/5, they aren't porting your other lands - she's still +1 mana per turn which is relevant.

I'd also add that since normally you get Ported before your main phase, this gives you interaction with that. Either they wait to Port till you animate a land with Nissa, which lets you use the mana from that land on your main phase, or you get to untap the land with Nissa. Either way, she helps alleviate Port-pressure a lot.

[Navsi]

So I put this together.

4 Verdant Catacombs
5 other fetch land
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower

3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path/Swords
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
2 Oath of Nissa

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Batterskull
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg - might have to be cut since he turns off a ton of the deck, and become a Reclamation Sage or QPM.

Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?

[Echelon]

Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?

Yes. But go and live the dream, dammit!

[cherson]

So I put this together.
.
.

Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?

looks like a blast but did u test it so far? adding blue adds so much variety but does it really work out? you don't face mana issues if u get wastelanded and or ported?

[Navsi]

looks like a blast but did u test it so far? adding blue adds so much variety but does it really work out? you don't face mana issues if u get wastelanded and or ported?

I haven't tested this version, but I ran a different build (less planeswalkers, more creatures) which had a very similar manabase. It's not actually that bad - you don't really need multiple U or W sources, and you have enough basics to cast pretty much everything in the deck. Previously, I was running Brainstorm, JTMS, Strix and Glen Elendra as blue cards, and Path, Stoneforge, Sigarda and Teeg as white cards.

Leovold is great against Wasteland and Port, which helps a lot.

[cherson]

I haven't tested this version, but I ran a different build (less planeswalkers, more creatures) which had a very similar manabase. It's not actually that bad - you don't really need multiple U or W sources, and you have enough basics to cast pretty much everything in the deck. Previously, I was running Brainstorm, JTMS, Strix and Glen Elendra as blue cards, and Path, Stoneforge, Sigarda and Teeg as white cards.

Leovold is great against Wasteland and Port, which helps a lot.

ok. I like the cmc curve a lot but due to the multiple mana costs (leovold, atraxa, strix, decay, deed, sorin) you might face problems if u want to interact or play two spells a turn.
play it! :cool: curious to see if it works out and finally a brainstorm in our deck :eek:

[Navsi]

So I've been able to find someone willing to lend me the blue duals I don't have (and a Tamiyo) so it looks like we're on for greedy planeswalker stuff. There's another tournament in a couple weeks, so I might try Sneak Attack then and get some more data for that too.

[truthfulcake]

That looks really greedy and could crash and burn really badly, but it could also be amazing. I'm definitely gonna proxy it up and try it at some point, it looks like a lot of fine. Is Atraxa really worth it though? The only proliferate interaction is really the walkers, but that could be fine.

Manabase looks a little shaky (but I guess the remaining 5x fetches you haven't listed will all be able to get either a forest or a swamp, so it could just be fine).

Only 3 Vet Explorers though? In a 4c deck I'd expect you'd want all 4 for the fixing.

[bruizar]

So I put this together.

4 Verdant Catacombs
5 other fetch land
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower

3 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman

2 Baleful Strix
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Path/Swords
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Brainstorm
2 Oath of Nissa

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Batterskull
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gaddock Teeg - might have to be cut since he turns off a ton of the deck, and become a Reclamation Sage or QPM.

Playing in a tournament Sunday, taking either this or Sneak. Am I being too greedy?

Nicol Bolas, Karn and Eureka, where art thou?

[Navsi]

That looks really greedy and could crash and burn really badly, but it could also be amazing. I'm definitely gonna proxy it up and try it at some point, it looks like a lot of fine. Is Atraxa really worth it though? The only proliferate interaction is really the walkers, but that could be fine.

Manabase looks a little shaky (but I guess the remaining 5x fetches you haven't listed will all be able to get either a forest or a swamp, so it could just be fine).

Only 3 Vet Explorers though? In a 4c deck I'd expect you'd want all 4 for the fixing.

The mana base has 15G/14B/12U/12W which is just about on the borderline of ok in each one. I'm only playing 3 Explorers because I only think I need 9 ramp cards total (since the main part of my curve is ~4 mana, and I only have two 5-drops and one 6-drop) and I'd rather have the second Deathrite than the fourth Explorer - DRS is easier to cast and I don't want to draw multiple Vets much because I only have 5 basic lands in the deck.

[truthfulcake]

The mana base has 15G/14B/12U/12W which is just about on the borderline of ok in each one. I'm only playing 3 Explorers because I only think I need 9 ramp cards total (since the main part of my curve is ~4 mana, and I only have two 5-drops and one 6-drop) and I'd rather have the second Deathrite than the fourth Explorer - DRS is easier to cast and I don't want to draw multiple Vets much because I only have 5 basic lands in the deck.
Fair call on the DRS, it fixes your mana perfectly as well with a fetch.

A curve of 4-5 maximises the power of Vet Explorer arguably though, since you get to cast your threats on either T2 in a nut draw scenario or T3 normally. (You can't actually get to 4 mana on turn 2 without the Explorer dying in combat or a Tower as your land drop for turn 2).

Since you're running so many walkers and Strixes (As an artifact), might be worth exploring Traverse the Ulvenwald on another note, since you might be able to get delirium consistently. Traverse could also fix some mana issues, but between Explorer, DRS and fetches I can't see it being a very relevant. Traverse, Academy Ruins and Strix seems like a fun interaction as well, but I doubt the manabase would enjoy a second colorless land.

[cherson]

So I've been able to find someone willing to lend me the blue duals I don't have (and a Tamiyo) so it looks like we're on for greedy planeswalker stuff. There's another tournament in a couple weeks, so I might try Sneak Attack then and get some more data for that too.

hope u will cast tamiyo ult :smile:
good luck !

[Navsi]

Since you're running so many walkers and Strixes (As an artifact), might be worth exploring Traverse the Ulvenwald on another note, since you might be able to get delirium consistently. Traverse could also fix some mana issues, but between Explorer, DRS and fetches I can't see it being a very relevant. Traverse, Academy Ruins and Strix seems like a fun interaction as well, but I doubt the manabase would enjoy a second colorless land.

Getting Delirium is pretty doable beyond turn ~4 or so. The problem with Traverse is that we can't really afford to play a spell that only does anything relevant beyond turn 4, when we'd need to also include targets for it. It's probably better than the second Sigarda or whatever, but you already run 5 virtual copies with Zenith, and you can't cut those because they give you early ramp and Traverse doesn't.

[truthfulcake]

Getting Delirium is pretty doable beyond turn ~4 or so. The problem with Traverse is that we can't really afford to play a spell that only does anything relevant beyond turn 4, when we'd need to also include targets for it. It's probably better than the second Sigarda or whatever, but you already run 5 virtual copies with Zenith, and you can't cut those because they give you early ramp and Traverse doesn't.
I guess the most relevant thing for Traverse is that it can get Strix or utility lands like Tower where Zenith cannot, but then most of the time you'd want a Strix like effect is post board against Eldrazi, and for that you have Glissa anyway. Glissa even has the upside that it dodges warping wail.

Might be worth considering adding in Glissa into your board, since she has some really nice interactions with Strix as well (kill two dudes, bring back your dude, draw an extra card as well).

Deck looks super sweet though. I'm going to try out Sneak n Fit first, but this also looks like a lot of fun.

[Navsi]

I guess the most relevant thing for Traverse is that it can get Strix or utility lands like Tower where Zenith cannot, but then most of the time you'd want a Strix like effect is post board against Eldrazi, and for that you have Glissa anyway. Glissa even has the upside that it dodges warping wail.

Might be worth considering adding in Glissa into your board, since she has some really nice interactions with Strix as well (kill two dudes, bring back your dude, draw an extra card as well).

Deck looks super sweet though. I'm going to try out Sneak n Fit first, but this also looks like a lot of fun.

I was originally running Glissa in the board, but ended up dropping her. There isn't much Eldrazi in my meta, so it's not worth playing her here IMO. If I do happen to run into someone, I've still got Batterskull in the board which is great against them, and most of my planeswalkers are great against their deck.

[Kobra_D]

Traverse is really good because this is a creature toolbox deck but it doesn't provide anything that can't already be provided in the deck. The worst match ups are fast combo and chalice on one. Traverse doesn't help too much until later turns, unless you are just trying to grab an early land at which point you might just want to play a land, so the fast combo game is out. And chalice on 1 locks it out. Sure, you can set up turns where you abrupt decay the chalice and set up delirium and then tutor something sweet to finally cast it but it seems at that point I would rather just go back to a pod build.

For the record I want this to work as it is super sweet, but I have yet to get it go work well against my local play group which involves eldrazi, miracles, D&T, and dredge.

[Hmmm_Really?]

For the record I want this to work as it is super sweet, but I have yet to get it go work well against my local play group which involves eldrazi, miracles, D&T, and dredge.

That begs the question, are you having any success with Nic-Fit against your local Eldrazi, Miracles, D&T, and Dredge oppo's? Which version?

[Brael]

That begs the question, are you having any success with Nic-Fit against your local Eldrazi, Miracles, D&T, and Dredge oppo's? Which version?

It's interesting you ask that question, I just finished a Legacy event against those very decks. My version which is SE has good Eldrazi, Miracles, and D&T matchups. I don't know about Dredge, it's probably less than stellar (no games against it since I started playing this version) but not impossible. I suspect manaless is worse than regular.

The trick to Eldrazi is pretty simple. They don't really have a way to refuel, so if you blunt the assault and trade aggressively you'll pull ahead. Miracles is more of a grindfest, it's rare I finish a Miracles match 2-x it seems like it's either a 2-0 or a 1-1-1, but I definitely feel favored. It's possible this feeling against Miracles could change if I were playing opponents that day 2'ed a GP. Miracles has a high skill cap.

[Navsi]

Well, apparently zero stores near me have a copy of the Atraxa commander precon, so it looks like I'm gonna be on Sneak Attack after all, I'm afraid guys. There's another event coming up in early December that I'll try and take Planeswalkers to.

[Echelon]

And noone is selling the card seperately?

[cherson]

Well, apparently zero stores near me have a copy of the Atraxa commander precon, so it looks like I'm gonna be on Sneak Attack after all, I'm afraid guys. There's another event coming up in early December that I'll try and take Planeswalkers to.

nooo.. it is not that expensive, no chance to get it somewhere? I was so curious to read your winner report :)

[volrathxp]

And noone is selling the card seperately?

A lot of stores won't crack commander precons this early for singles since they just came out. Any singles they would have would be people trading into the store. It just doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to open deck product that you could be selling.

Atraxa is the highest and most playable of the decks out of the box. I'm grateful that I was able to use my prize tickets from Columbus to get it and Kynaios/Tiro. Even then, while the latter was 100 tix, Atraxa was 170 tix.

She's definitely the most popular deck, followed by Breya.

[Echelon]

@volrathxp: I just checked the inventory of 4 of the stores I usually go to for singles. 4 out of 4 have multiple copies of Atraxa in stock, so it doesn't seem that farfetched.

[volrathxp]

@volrathxp: I just checked the inventory of 4 of the stores I usually go to for singles. 4 out of 4 have multiple copies of Atraxa in stock, so it doesn't seem that farfetched.

I said "a lot of" stores, that doesn't mean they all will. Some will crack open boxes if they think they can move the singles faster. A lot of times though the value is really only in a few cards like the face commanders and it usually isn't worth it when you could sell the deck at MSRP or higher (especially when you know that sheer virtue of just sticking the deck on your shelf it will sell). It really ultimately depends on how much product a store gets of all five decks.

Honestly I wouldn't blame them. A lot of places around my area had relatively few singles from c15, including Meren, because those decks sold out so quickly and they didn't want to crack a box on a deck that sold well.

[Brael]

Well, apparently zero stores near me have a copy of the Atraxa commander precon, so it looks like I'm gonna be on Sneak Attack after all, I'm afraid guys. There's another event coming up in early December that I'll try and take Planeswalkers to.

Not sure where you live, but why not try overnight shipping from one of the card stores? Overnight for an Atraxa is cheaper than buying the entire commander box anyways. Alternatively, bring your trade material (and maybe some cash) and try to get one on site from another player.

[Navsi]

Looks like I might be able to borrow one, so we may be back on for Maximum Greed™.

On a related note, ever since I bought a copy of Living Plane online, the online stores keep trying to advertise to me with awful Enchantment-Matters trash from Theros block.

[Kobra_D]

That begs the question, are you having any success with Nic-Fit against your local Eldrazi, Miracles, D&T, and Dredge oppo's? Which version?

I am going to just make up numbers for g1 statistics to give my interpretation of things.

Mana Dredge/Manaless Dredge (90%)- The decks can be very fast but GSZ to scavenging ooze can single handily win you the game. DRS is also really good, and at least alleviates enough pressure to get a deed out in case they try to overwhelm with zombies. Along with Explorer and sac outlets bridge is kept under control a lot of the time and the match up has been mostly positive. Sometimes they stick a ton of zombies and you cannot find deed, but I have come to accept the inevitability of the zombie apocalypse.

D&T (40%)- Main deck abrupt decay/pridemage is awesome in the match up although I do find myself struggling a little. I used to run 2 deeds and 0 maelstrom pulses. Every time I play this though I find myself wanting a 2/1 or 3/0 split. I can usually handle every threat but then end up dying to something like air force beats. So for right now I have added a third deed pre-board, although maybe I just want the third in the sb and win games 2/3 more reliably.

Eldrazi (~50%)- MD Glissa and MD Nissa have helped tremendously. It will be a rocky start but if I find a way to stabilize then I feel incredibly comfortable. This used to be a much worse match up but I've been following this thread for a little bit now and the two aforementioned cards really put me back into someplace preferable.

Miracles (-20%)- I have seen this person the least and have the least amount of testing on this match up. Further, I can't stand miracles because I am coming from a combo deck. I do need more work on this match up as I never seem to sneak by a solid pilot with this deck. But that is too be expected somewhat, I am still kind of new to this deck and so it will just take time.

[Blastoderm]

I am going to just make up numbers for g1 statistics to give my interpretation of things.

....

Miracles (-20%)- I have seen this person the least and have the least amount of testing on this match up. Further, I can't stand miracles because I am coming from a combo deck. I do need more work on this match up as I never seem to sneak by a solid pilot with this deck. But that is too be expected somewhat, I am still kind of new to this deck and so it will just take time.

Vs Miracles try playing a single Taiga in the main with 4 blasts in the SB. ~3 slaughter games helps as well. Side out all your explorers and cabal therapies. Might be important to note that I'm playing 4 Deathrite, 4 Tops and 3 Deeds maindeck. Deathrite adds tons of reach in this matchup.

[Kobra_D]

Side out all your explorers and cabal therapies

Maybe siding is my problem in the miracles match up, I usually don't cut the explorers/ therapy package. I'm not sure if I want the REB's, although I get how they are useful. Above all else, I really just need to become more familiar with my list and playing it.

On a side note, how do you find 4 DRS? Seem's like a lot in the face of a chalice deck.

[Brael]

Maybe siding is my problem in the miracles match up, I usually don't cut the explorers/ therapy package. I'm not sure if I want the REB's, although I get how they are useful. Above all else, I really just need to become more familiar with my list and playing it.

On a side note, how do you find 4 DRS? Seem's like a lot in the face of a chalice deck.

4 DRS is fantastic, I wouldn't run the deck without access to all 4 between MB and SB.

This is SE rather than whatever you're playing but perhaps you'll find it useful. Here's my list and how/why I sideboard the way I do for various matchups. I'll cover Eldrazi, D&T, and Miracles since those are the ones mentioned a couple posts prior. Even if you're not playing my 75, some of it might be applicable to you.

There's a few changes I want to make to my list, but I'm in the middle of a really long paper league right now, so I can't change in the middle.

Mainboard 61
Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 21
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Non Creatures 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Shriekmaw
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboarding:
Miracles:
The theory is to remove cards that accelerate them, but maintain your own ability to accelerate. Try to play cards that require more specific answers so that eventually the answers in their hand line up poorly for the threats you're presenting.
In the difficult to answer category you want to bring in Cavern of Souls and 2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
In the acceleration category bring in 2 Deathrite Shaman, 1 Noble Hierarch, and 1 Carpet of Flowers

As for what you take out, you remove 4 Veteran Explorers, 1 Volrath's Stronghold, Scavenging Ooze, and Courser of Kruphix. Explorers and the land for Cavern/others is a straight swap. The Ooze/Courser are for your Sorins. I think Ooze is generally pretty poor in this match because there's very little to eat. It can shut off Snapcasters, but it will still probably just trade with a Snapcaster. Sorin on the other hand will kill a Snap and live to provide additional advantage. Courser is because Miracles thrives on perfect information, and due to the nature of the Counter/Top lock it's a bad idea to tell them what CMC's they need to keep available and how to sequence their plays.

Optionally you can bring in Knight of the Reliquary to tutor Cavern. Being a 3 drop, Knight is very hard to Counterbalance so it will resolve through anything but a Force. I've found that if it survives to tap you can take away a counter top lock but usually you need your cards to have a quicker payoff than that in the matchup.

Other notes - Sequence your Mentor plays so that you always play a Mentor and trigger prowess that turn, this is most easily done with Tops, but is another place where a GSZ for 0 can thrive. If you play a Ranger of Eos, try to pair it with a non tutored threat. That way you can either double DRS or Endless One/Safekeeper after the Terminus. Basically, treat Ranger as the pressure and the cards you gain as a followup threat. Probably most notably, I don't bring in Teeg. It's not that he's bad but rather that I just haven't identified another cut for him. There's too much to bring in and not enough to take out. One possible solution here is to go up to 63, don't side out the Stronghold, and just bring Teeg in.

Eldrazi:
The theory is that Eldrazi has no library manipulation. They have a bunch of big things and the acceleration to power them out but no ability to play a long game (exception being white Eldrazi, they can play the long game). Your main goal here is to not get mana screwed. If they open on a Chalice for 1 you're going to have problems.

You want to mitigate the effect of Chalice by bringing in a 5th human manadork with Hierarch, and removing a DRS. Also you obviously bring in the second Cavern to go along with this. After that you want extra removal so bring in Shriekmaw. Discard is actually pretty potent against Eldrazi because they have few removal spells and no real CA so Tidehollow Sculler is alright. Bonus, it's discard that dodges a Chalice on 1. Last, KotR has a body that can tangle with even the biggest Eldrazi's and it sets up Stronghold loops.

For these 5 cards you want to remove your Phyrexian Tower because you win this match by card advantage rather than quality and it's your slot for Cavern, 1 Monastery Mentor because it doesn't accomplish enough on blocks so the KotR gets better. My other 3 cuts are usually Sylvan Safekeeper, Meren, and Deed. Meren just isn't big enough for the cost, Deed doesn't hit the big threats, and Safekeeper doesn't protect you against much.

A small playstyle thing I've noticed is that you almost always want to let Matter Reshaper live. It will trade with most of your blockers and it's one of their weaker cards. Almost anything it finds is an upgrade. Just take the 3 per turn and figure out how to race it. Followup Explorers are great blockers for it. This goes double when you're setting up for lethal, there's nothing worse than blocking a Reshaper only to give them a blocker.

D&T:
I play against this one a little less, but it's still around. The big thing here is that they're going to attack your mana which is our weakest point. The theory here is that you want to insulate your manabase a bit and try to play your early turns so that you have ways around the taxes.

I actually go very threat light against D&T and instead just ensure that I can play what I do draw. This means 2 DRS, Hierarch, and Cavern come in alongside Shriekmaw and Sorin. The Shriekmaw because it's versatile and kills most of their cards, and the Sorin because it turns anything into a threat. After you make 2 emblems anything is lethal (or alternatively, you -6 after blocking a bit). Save your removal for the 3 mana cards, and try to trade your board for the rest. 3 mana Thalia and Mirran Crusader (especially Crusader, though it's fallen out of favor a bit) are what will kill you.

You don't need as much CA here because you won't have the mana to play it all so remove mana sinks like Tireless Tracker, Dryad Arbor can go because it makes an active Jitte that much worse for you, and Mentor because you won't have the mana to use it. I also like removing my Ranger of Eos package (Ranger, Endless One, Safekeeper) because it lines up so poorly against Thalia. Deed #2 should come in over SDT #4.

This applies more to paper than online, but try to get a read on your opponent with their opening hand. One of the big things to look for is to figure out if they're evaluating a land light+Vial hand. If you can correctly determine this, it has major implications for Pridemage and Abrupt Decay. But you need to be good at reading people to pull it off (this same advice applies to the Jund vs Merfolk matchup in Modern... something I play a lot of). Don't fall into the trap of fetching basics in this match. If you fetch basics to play around Wasteland, you'll play right into Port. It's better to have a Bayou available because you got 2 basics and they Wastelanded you than it is to have just a Swamp because you got Forest/Swamp and one is on permanent lockdown. Also, try to save a Therapy, not only are they great to answer Stoneforge Mystic, but if they have a Vial on 3 Flickerwisp is the biggest threat in their deck, so you either need to strip it or make them use it before you run into it. It is extremely risky to do anything when they're representing this.

Finally, as it stands right now after 2 months of experience with my list, here's the 75 I would put together for SE Fit today (and what I'll be playing in Louisville):
Mainboard 61
Lands 22
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 21
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Non Creatures 18
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library (alternatively the 4th SDT, I'm torn on this point)
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Shriekmaw
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Noble Hierarch

[Blastoderm]

Interesting list!

And finally someone who understands playing 4 tops is great.

[Fatal]

Note about Nic Fit vs Eldrazi - Don't cut Deed- it's a golden card if you resolve it and crack for 4-5 it's mostly a game. Deed can clean up also chalice which is also very important. Deed for 0 can kill chalice & Endless One.

[Brael]

Note about Nic Fit vs Eldrazi - Don't cut Deed- it's a golden card if you resolve it and crack for 4-5 it's mostly a game. Deed can clean up also chalice which is also very important. Deed for 0 can kill chalice & Endless One.

To crack deed for 5 it means you need to live to the point where you can spend 8 mana on the card. Deluge is much better in the match than Deed is if you want a sweeper. It's easier to just 2 for 1 yourself trading with Eldrazi. If you can kill 4 creatures of theirs, you've pretty much won the game. Deed works against this, because the easiest way to kill their creatures is to have your own board presence, which would be swept away alongside theirs with the Deed.

Chalices are annoying. Make sure you can handle them, I've constructed my list in such a way that I'm pretty resilient to Chalice. If you don't do that, you probably want to add a few more Abrupt Decays.

[Echelon]

Chalices are annoying. Make sure you can handle them, I've constructed my list in such a way that I'm pretty resilient to Chalice. If you don't do that, you probably want to add a few more Abrupt Decays.

Or Qasali Pridemage. Chump & dump FTW.

I've never had that much trouble with CotV. Just play around it and wreck it when you find an opportunity to, you've got plenty of ways to.

[Brael]

Or Qasali Pridemage. Chump & dump FTW.

I've never had that much trouble with CotV. Just play around it and wreck it when you find an opportunity to, you've got plenty of ways to.

I'm not saying I have trouble with it, my list is built to beat it. The average list though on the draw gets wrecked by Chalice on one. One way or another you need a consistent way to beat it in deck construction.

[tadskosh]

Tested Saskia at TNL this week in Junk Fit with one stomping ground. There were two games where she was relevant and one where she secured the win. Makes blocks very awkward for opponents with a Rhino in play. Thoughts?

[Brael]

Tested Saskia at TNL this week in Junk Fit with one stomping ground. There were two games where she was relevant and one where she secured the win. Makes blocks very awkward for opponents with a Rhino in play. Thoughts?

Not much discussion over her. I like her a lot, but no one else has said anything since she was spoiled really, most just wanted to discuss Atraxa. Saskia does everything I'm looking for in a creature, but I'm not yet convinced the red is worth it.

What else are you using the red for?

My build has been moving closer and closer to Maverick over time. I've spent the last few days toying with manabases that allow Wasteland actually, but every time I build one I come to the conclusion that Wasteland is just the exact opposite of what I want to be doing which is using a lot of mana per turn. Something I could see is splashing red for Saskia+Punishing Fire. I have a manabase that could support that, but the two kind of seem at opposite ends in terms of strategy. Saskia is more for aggro while Punishing Fire is for grinding.

[MrIggins]

Made top 8 of a local, 55 player event playing the following 76:

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Eternal Witness
2x Fierce Empath
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Thragtusk
1x Inferno Titan
1x Primeval Titan
1x Woodland Bellower
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
4x Sneak Attack
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Sensei’s Divining Top
1x Sylvan Library

Lands
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
1x Badlands
3x Bayou
2x Taiga
2x Forest
2x Mountain
2x Swamp

SIDEBOARD
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Gaze of Granite
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Slaughter Games
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Shriekmaw
2x Pyroclasm

Tried out the 2nd Fierce Empath as the 61st card for the first time today, not sure if needed, it came up once but was also bad a couple times. Probably going back to the same maindeck minus that card. Maindeck feels extremely solid. Meren never came up at all. I don't want to cut the card but if I need maindeck slots that's another one I'm looking at in future. Thragtusk felt underwhelming but was fine, as it usually is.

Sideboard Shriekmaws were for Eldrazi which I expected a lot of given that it's a local event with a low entry fee, saw none, might have been one in the entire room. Probably trim those for an answer to Marit Lage, have not decided what yet (I don't like To the Slaughter).

Matchups were Miracles (2-0 win), BG Loam Pox (2-0 win), Death and Taxes (2-0 win), Omni+Sneak (1-2 loss, extremely close sideboarded games), 4-color loam (2-1 win), ID into top 8, lose hard to UW Stoneblade with an Aven Mindcensor and multiple TNN in two games.

Very very happy with this deck, extremely fun, feels very powerful, and has a powerful proactive game to play against unfair decks in the sideboarded games. Previous versions of Nic Fit I've played overloaded on hate out of the board and never presented a threat of winning. This deck does not have that problem because you also have an unfair game plan to play towards. Highly recommend. Not playing Grove+Fires because I don't own groves, but didn't feel like I ought to have had them at any point either.

[Echelon]

@Iggins: Congrats!

@Brael: Clear out your inbox, dammit! :laugh:

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/UO3vTWL.png
http://imgur.com/a/NVZr4
I should have just went to sleep.

[rubblekill]

http://i.imgur.com/UO3vTWL.png
http://imgur.com/a/NVZr4
I should have just went to sleep.

I'm not sure about those wastelands, but this seems awesome! Have you tested it already?
I'll add you on modo later
Ps, you really don't want to lose against gy decks eh? [emoji1]

[Ricardio]

I'm not sure about those wastelands, but this seems awesome! Have you tested it already?
I'll add you on modo later
Ps, you really don't want to lose against gy decks eh? [emoji1]

Not tested. Just guesstimated. Probably should have a master of the hunt over third biomancer

Sb looks like a car accident.

Just played it against red stacks and wouldn't you know it, jtms is good.

Wastelands and Liam are whatever. Not sure. No leo bc he's still 50+ tix

[Ulysse95]

Not tested. Just guesstimated. Probably should have a master of the hunt over third biomancer

Sb looks like a car accident.

Just played it against red stacks and wouldn't you know it, jtms is good.

Wastelands and Liam are whatever. Not sure. No leo bc he's still 50+ tix

Yeah, Leo would be great here.

You could also tried Reyhan, Last of the Abzan (new DC). But I definitely would see a Nissa, Vital force here.

I would cut at least one swallower..