[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[pettdan]

Tried out the 2nd Fierce Empath as the 61st card for the first time today, not sure if needed, it came up once but was also bad a couple times. Probably going back to the same maindeck minus that card. Maindeck feels extremely solid. Meren never came up at all. I don't want to cut the card but if I need maindeck slots that's another one I'm looking at in future. Thragtusk felt underwhelming but was fine, as it usually is.

Sideboard Shriekmaws were for Eldrazi which I expected a lot of given that it's a local event with a low entry fee, saw none, might have been one in the entire room. Probably trim those for an answer to Marit Lage, have not decided what yet (I don't like To the Slaughter).

Matchups were Miracles (2-0 win), BG Loam Pox (2-0 win), Death and Taxes (2-0 win), Omni+Sneak (1-2 loss, extremely close sideboarded games), 4-color loam (2-1 win), ID into top 8, lose hard to UW Stoneblade with an Aven Mindcensor and multiple TNN in two games.

Very very happy with this deck, extremely fun, feels very powerful, and has a powerful proactive game to play against unfair decks in the sideboarded games. Previous versions of Nic Fit I've played overloaded on hate out of the board and never presented a threat of winning. This deck does not have that problem because you also have an unfair game plan to play towards. Highly recommend. Not playing Grove+Fires because I don't own groves, but didn't feel like I ought to have had them at any point either.

I've also been trying out Sneak Fit recently, going 2-2, 2-2 and 2-1-1 I think. Still I agree with your comments that it's a powerful deck, it can both grind out and combo relativly quickly. A lot of losses have been due to a combination of bad luck and lucky opponents just barely losing 1-2 - drawing 4 Sneak Attacks in a row, drawing 4 Veterans in a row and not being able to set them off when I really needed them, losing due to time after having Slaughter Games'd 90% of opponent's win conditions, the opponent on Food Chain topdecking a Diabolic Edict for my sneaked Emrakul, drawing 4 do-nothings in a topdeck battle vs burn (of course Emrakul was on top when I died ;). Anyway, great job Arianrhod, this time you've really outdone yourself!

MrIggins, Shriekmaw has very good synergy with Meren but I must say I like the idea of Blood Moon in the deck, I currently have two in the board. They work great with the Nic Fit mana base, they work great with Sneak Attack as demonstrated by Sneak and Show and they are a major obstacle for both Eldrazi (needing colorless mana to resolve their spells) and the Marit Lage decks. And opponents are likely to fetch for duals due to the Veterans. Something to at least consider.

[MrIggins]

Blood Moon in the board is actually super interesting. I may try that out. I was previously a Scapewish player so the card just was not on my radar for nic fit sideboard. I like it.

[volrathxp]

I've also been trying out Sneak Fit recently, going 2-2, 2-2 and 2-1-1 I think. Still I agree with your comments that it's a powerful deck, it can both grind out and combo relativly quickly. A lot of losses have been due to a combination of bad luck and lucky opponents just barely losing 1-2 - drawing 4 Sneak Attacks in a row, drawing 4 Veterans in a row and not being able to set them off when I really needed them, losing due to time after having Slaughter Games'd 90% of opponent's win conditions, the opponent on Food Chain topdecking a Diabolic Edict for my sneaked Emrakul, drawing 4 do-nothings in a topdeck battle vs burn (of course Emrakul was on top when I died ;). Anyway, great job Arianrhod, this time you've really outdone yourself!

MrIggins, Shriekmaw has very good synergy with Meren but I must say I like the idea of Blood Moon in the deck, I currently have two in the board. They work great with the Nic Fit mana base, they work great with Sneak Attack as demonstrated by Sneak and Show and they are a major obstacle for both Eldrazi (needing colorless mana to resolve their spells) and the Marit Lage decks. And opponents are likely to fetch for duals due to the Veterans. Something to at least consider.

I've considered Blood Moon too for dealing with decks like Turbo Depths.

@Iggins, congrats on the finish. All my testing with Grove has been solid. With D&T around, the PFire engine is solid, and hapowdoven its worth to me. If you don't own Groves though, I think the deck can operate fine.

I agree though that the deck definitely feels proactive and powerful, and is a real gas to play.

[Navsi]

I took the Atraxa list. Currently 2-0, beat Grixis and Maverick. Atraxa on board when the game ends in 3 of 4 wins (the other was Tamiyo + Thragtusk + Jitte).

[Arianrhod]

I definitely don't think that Groves/PFire are necessary for the deck, but I do like having access to that engine. While it does improve the deck, I think it only does so by perhaps 5-7%: not really enough to be super concerned about investing into, especially since there are other ways to yield the same benefit. I do feel like you're a little light on removal, though -- without the Pfires, you probably need at least a 3rd Decay.

[volrathxp]

I definitely don't think that Groves/PFire are necessary for the deck, but I do like having access to that engine. While it does improve the deck, I think it only does so by perhaps 5-7%: not really enough to be super concerned about investing into, especially since there are other ways to yield the same benefit. I do feel like you're a little light on removal, though -- without the Pfires, you probably need at least a 3rd Decay.

PFire felt great all through the Classic. It gives you another way of closing games out which is why it's so good. If your opponent is within PFire range, and they don't have a counterspell then it's as good as bolt. And even then better, because you can recur it easily.

It's definitely not necessary to be playable, but it is quite good.

[Navsi]

Ended up going 3-1-1, got into top 4, lost to Burning Reanimator.

1. Grixis Delver - walked all over him. Atraxa got Jittes and generally caused problems. It's not a good match up for him at the best of times, and Stoneforge, Strix and Walkers just make it worse.
2. Shardless - got rushed down one game by double goyf, pulse for Nissa, removal for Sorin blockers and Force for Thragtusk. Other games I ruined him with higher impact cards.
3. Maverick - also went pretty well. Tamiyo shut down Thalias till I found removal. Jitte did dumb things again.
4. Storm - one game he punted away (tried to tendrils for exact damage, I gained 2 life with Deathrite) but lost the round anyway.
5. ID into top 4.

Top 4 - Burning Reanimator
Game 1 was very close, almost won - he has a 50/50 Gamble discard to avoid getting run over by a Tireless Tracker with a SOFI and he made it, but I almost got there anyway off Deathrite. Game 2 I had tons of interaction. Game 3 I kept 5 lands, Swords, Brainstorm, removed his turn 2 Griselbrand, but he made Sire of Insanity off his draw-14 and I lost anyway. Probably shouldn't have kept.

Deck seems strong - didn't have fixing issues - I think it wants more combo hate though, it's already great against fair decks. Tempted to shove in Teeg, even though he shuts down the walkers.

[J.Black]

Tempted to shove in Teeg, even though he shuts down the walkers.

You seemed to do ok without the walkers, and you have plenty of ways to win without them... could you tweak your sideboard so you can board them out and board in a combo hate package?

[Ricardio]

Yeah, Leo would be great here.

You could also tried Reyhan, Last of the Abzan (new DC). But I definitely would see a Nissa, Vital force here.

I would cut at least one swallower..

When his price settles, he gets included. Haha

Reyhan seems bad.

Swallower just seems overly amazing. Albeit 7 CMc lol

[Brael]

http://imgur.com/a/NVZr4
I should have just went to sleep.

This has inspired me to think about BUG in a new way. I know the topic of BUG always gets brought up. What if we're looking at it all wrong by trying to include the obvious value with Baleful Strix? What if the land value decks are where BUG shines?

Random list off the top of my head

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Blighted Fen
1 Mishra's Factory

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Sylvan Advocate
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Leovald, Emissary of Trest
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
1 The Gitrog Monster

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Spells 13
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Reality Shift

Planeswalker 2
2 Nissa, Vital Force

Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed

[jbone2016]

Neat. A 4 color fit deck with Atraxa and Leovold got 11th at the classic today.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109768

[mstephenson]

Neat. A 4 color fit deck with Atraxa and Leovold got 11th at the classic today.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109768

Hey that's me :D. I might post a report tomorrow but I am exhausted tonight. Although I will say Atraxa, leovold, Nissa Vital Force and kaya were all gas every time I saw them.

Also got to resolve Big daddy sorin against miracles and plus him up reveal elspeth sun's champ and then the next turn plus up reveal kaya. That game was very over.

[Echelon]

@mstephenson: Congrats on the result! Looking forward to that report!

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/xZpzPdd.png
http://imgur.com/a/nBXWD
not to take away from Homeboy doing work.
updated bug fit

[Echelon]

@Ricardio: 2 5-drops, 2 6-drops, a 7-drop and only 1 DRS?

Seems incredibly risky.

[rubblekill]

That 4c list is sweet, I play a very similar (of course) list without blue but it's hard to justify spending 100$ to acquire Leo and Atraxa online [emoji26]

E. Ricardio we should play some games sometimes! How do you like the biomancer?

[Ricardio]

That 4c list is sweet, I play a very similar (of course) list without blue but it's hard to justify spending 100$ to acquire Leo and Atraxa online [emoji26]

E. Ricardio we should play some games sometimes! How do you like the biomancer?

The cost is ridiculous on each ATM. Hopefully that dies down.

That's sounds good, bud. I have liked it this far. Makes everything an amazing clock. I was also thinking about alter ego.
Master bio and then master of the hunt is a combo lol

[MDHackbert]

Hey that's me :D. I might post a report tomorrow but I am exhausted tonight. Although I will say Atraxa, leovold, Nissa Vital Force and kaya were all gas every time I saw them.

Also got to resolve Big daddy sorin against miracles and plus him up reveal elspeth sun's champ and then the next turn plus up reveal kaya. That game was very over.

I didn't see Kaya in the posted list. Is it a 61st that SCG left off?

Edit: While I'm here, I'll post a brief report about a 4-round event I played locally today. I am playing Brael's list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=978992&viewfull=1#post978992) from page 387 (The list he's locked into for league) but with E. Wit over 2nd Tracker (forgot to bring one) and added a 2nd MB Deed for 61. Overall went 2-2. I'll try to get better at remembering afterwards what happened for reports in the future.

Rd 1: Burn 2-1; Sorin, LoI was key in G3. Shriekmaw + Stronghold is gas against Eidolon in G2. I think I got lucky, I had a soul read multiple times with Therapy and the guy was new to Legacy/deck.
Rd 2: Elves 2-1; G1: I whiffed on Therapy for NO T1, flashed back for both Hoofs in his opener. Grindy game untl he concedes to Mentor and 2x Top. G2: Grindy until he NO's for hoof, lots of maneuvering for DS activations on both sides. G3: his mana development was poor, Mentor + 2x Top closes door in turns.
Rd 3: My buddy on Vial Goblins (he plays it in an aggro-control manner) Quick 0-2; Both games, he is able to establish quick clocks and Gempalm stunts DS, while Port keeps me from getting Deeds down in time.
Rd 4: Merfolk 0-2; G1, he lays the lord beats pretty fast and i try to stabilize with a Courser + Meren + Arbor, but I misplayed by not Therapying his force before Meren and he forces Meren. G2 Lord beats plust a Spreading Seas on a land. Can't find deed in time to stabilize.

[Brael]

I didn't see Kaya in the posted list. Is it a 61st that SCG left off?

Edit: While I'm here, I'll post a brief report about a 4-round event I played locally today. I am playing Brael's list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit&p=978992&viewfull=1#post978992) from page 387 (The list he's locked into for league) but with E. Wit over 2nd Tracker (forgot to bring one) and added a 2nd MB Deed for 61. Overall went 2-2. I'll try to get better at remembering afterwards what happened for reports in the future.

Rd 1: Burn 2-1; Sorin, LoI was key in G3. Shriekmaw + Stronghold is gas against Eidolon in G2. I think I got lucky, I had a soul read multiple times with Therapy and the guy was new to Legacy/deck.
Rd 2: Elves 2-1; G1: I whiffed on Therapy for NO T1, flashed back for both Hoofs in his opener. Grindy game untl he concedes to Mentor and 2x Top. G2: Grindy until he NO's for hoof, lots of maneuvering for DS activations on both sides. G3: his mana development was poor, Mentor + 2x Top closes door in turns.
Rd 3: My buddy on Vial Goblins (he plays it in an aggro-control manner) Quick 0-2; Both games, he is able to establish quick clocks and Gempalm stunts DS, while Port keeps me from getting Deeds down in time.
Rd 4: Merfolk 0-2; G1, he lays the lord beats pretty fast and i try to stabilize with a Courser + Meren + Arbor, but I misplayed by not Therapying his force before Meren and he forces Meren. G2 Lord beats plust a Spreading Seas on a land. Can't find deed in time to stabilize.

Yay, someone was willing to try my list. It sounds like you have a very aggro oriented meta. I find myself losing to burn from time to time, but I would say it's about 50/50, Eidolon is definitely their best card against this build. But, their other creatures get shut down fast so I like naming Eidolon with Therapy.

Vial goblins is interesting, I've actually lost a couple times to the goblins decks. Basically they get to cheat mana, and short our mana development which is tough to fight. I think the same issue applies to Merfolk, the decks are just able to establish themselves faster. Our CA doesn't really start digging into more removal until turn 3 or 4, so until then we're operating at a deficit.

Something else I noticed is that all 4 rounds involved decks that have enough basics to get value off of Veteran Explorer. That can be a tough environment, because we need Vet to be 1 sided. If that's a typical tournament for you, I would definitely change the SB so that you can remove all 4 Vets.

How was Mentor for you? I've found that half the time it just automatically ends games, but the other half of the time it doesn't do much.

[Navsi]

Thinking about running a Sneak Attack build:

- Drop Meren and Sidisi (they're good against matchups we already win)
- Move Primeval Titan to sideboard for Miracles
+1 Nissa, Vital Force
+1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
All help stabilize the board, provide card advantage, wreck Miracles.
Nissa and Liliana can rebuy Sneak targets, Nissa also rebuys Sneak Attacks
Lower mana curve

Meren's primary synergy in the sideboard (Shriekmaw, for Eldrazi) can be swapped for Blood Moon, as discussed last page.

Thoughts?

[MDHackbert]

Mentor was good at closing the door on the elves player when i had double tops, and i had already stripped them with therapies. It was so-so in other situations where i had to scramble to make enough tokens not to die, but usually did.

Sent from mobile.

[square_two]

Thinking about running a Sneak Attack build:

- Drop Meren and Sidisi (they're good against matchups we already win)
- Move Primeval Titan to sideboard for Miracles
+1 Nissa, Vital Force
+1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
All help stabilize the board, provide card advantage, wreck Miracles.
Nissa and Liliana can rebuy Sneak targets, Nissa also rebuys Sneak Attacks
Lower mana curve

Meren's primary synergy in the sideboard (Shriekmaw, for Eldrazi) can be swapped for Blood Moon, as discussed last page.

Thoughts?

Sounds like a plan! I've been curious to see how Liliana, the Last Hope is in Nic Fit.

I have made the switch to put Meren in the side and have Nissa VF main. So far enjoying it although I've only had a few games in my most recent league. But I have seen her -3 come up often since Deed is so juicy to grab back.

Typically if I want to hard cast a 6-drop then I usually prefer Inferno Titan, and I will very often go ahead and use a Fierce Empath the turn before to grab it if I don't have Sneak Attack available. So personally I'm fine with removing Primeval Titan from the main. Not too sure about having him in the side specifically for Miracles though. I've a feeling that there is better single card tech for that matchup.

Blood Moon does sound nice against the stuff that Meren is good against - let me know how it pans out.

Once I get home I will try to post my meager record since Eternal Weekend. It's something along the lines of 11-12 in matches. Sad that I'm under 50% win rate but I'm still finding myself making mistakes. And I feel the online meta is harsher for nic fit. I had a solid win against Elves last night that made me happy though.

[truthfulcake]

Sounds like a plan! I've been curious to see how Liliana, the Last Hope is in Nic Fit.

I have made the switch to put Meren in the side and have Nissa VF main. So far enjoying it although I've only had a few games in my most recent league. But I have seen her -3 come up often since Deed is so juicy to grab back.

Typically if I want to hard cast a 6-drop then I usually prefer Inferno Titan, and I will very often go ahead and use a Fierce Empath the turn before to grab it if I don't have Sneak Attack available. So personally I'm fine with removing Primeval Titan from the main. Not too sure about having him in the side specifically for Miracles though. I've a feeling that there is better single card tech for that matchup.

Blood Moon does sound nice against the stuff that Meren is good against - let me know how it pans out.

Once I get home I will try to post my meager record since Eternal Weekend. It's something along the lines of 11-12 in matches. Sad that I'm under 50% win rate but I'm still finding myself making mistakes. And I feel the online meta is harsher for nic fit. I had a solid win against Elves last night that made me happy though.
Prime Time did feel like the weakest of the Titans in the Sneak n Fit shell. When you're behind Inferno or Grave are amazing at bringing you back, and both do more than adequate jobs of closing a game as well. I guess Prime Time is something like Meren number 2; it fetches up a land and Stronghold which means you can recur a Titan every turn and destroy your opponent while actually killing your opponent (which Meren doesn't actually do admittedly).

I already cut Sidisi as well from my list (the list that Sean Brown posted on MTGGoldfish had 61 cards), it didn't feel that essential besides acting as a sac outlet and a catch-all tutor. I think Ob is non-essential for this deck though, Nissa and Lili have fantastic synergy, while Ob fills a similar role as Meren I feel. Great in grindy matchups (Shardless...) but not that great outside of that. I like Meren on the board then, but the deck is already vulnerable to grave hate.

But holy hell this Sneak n Fit list is fun. Being able to pull wins out of nowhere with a surprise Emrakul is always enjoyable. Take my comments with a grain of salt, only had like 3 games so far with this. The weekly legacy tournie for me is on Thursday though, I'll try it out then for sure.

[square_two]

But holy hell this Sneak n Fit list is fun. Being able to pull wins out of nowhere with a surprise Emrakul is always enjoyable. Take my comments with a grain of salt, only had like 3 games so far with this. The weekly legacy tournie for me is on Thursday though, I'll try it out then for sure.

Definitely! Heck I've clinched games by sneaking in Deathrite Shaman to drain at instant speed :laugh:

[Navsi]

I think Ob is non-essential for this deck though, Nissa and Lili have fantastic synergy, while Ob fills a similar role as Meren I feel. Great in grindy matchups (Shardless...) but not that great outside of that. I like Meren on the board then, but the deck is already vulnerable to grave hate.

Ob went in because I feel like the deck is a little lacking in both hard removal and card advantage engines, and he brings both. Most of the other removal in the deck is unable to hit large creatures, since we are not able to play Swords or Path. He could definitely be dropped, though. I do think he's better than Meren into a lot of match ups, since he's a lot harder for Miracles to deal with and has more immediate impact on the board.

[volrathxp]

Prime Time did feel like the weakest of the Titans in the Sneak n Fit shell. When you're behind Inferno or Grave are amazing at bringing you back, and both do more than adequate jobs of closing a game as well. I guess Prime Time is something like Meren number 2; it fetches up a land and Stronghold which means you can recur a Titan every turn and destroy your opponent while actually killing your opponent (which Meren doesn't actually do admittedly).

I already cut Sidisi as well from my list (the list that Sean Brown posted on MTGGoldfish had 61 cards), it didn't feel that essential besides acting as a sac outlet and a catch-all tutor. I think Ob is non-essential for this deck though, Nissa and Lili have fantastic synergy, while Ob fills a similar role as Meren I feel. Great in grindy matchups (Shardless...) but not that great outside of that. I like Meren on the board then, but the deck is already vulnerable to grave hate.

But holy hell this Sneak n Fit list is fun. Being able to pull wins out of nowhere with a surprise Emrakul is always enjoyable. Take my comments with a grain of salt, only had like 3 games so far with this. The weekly legacy tournie for me is on Thursday though, I'll try it out then for sure.

That was my list he posted, Prime Time felt great all day, as the recursion engine of Tower/Stronghold was really strong.

I'm also moving Meren out to the sideboard and cutting Nissa to the main. I would like to try Blood Moons in the sideboard though.

But yeah the deck is gas and is a lot of fun to play.

[truthfulcake]

Ob went in because I feel like the deck is a little lacking in both hard removal and card advantage engines, and he brings both. Most of the other removal in the deck is unable to hit large creatures, since we are not able to play Swords or Path. He could definitely be dropped, though. I do think he's better than Meren into a lot of match ups, since he's a lot harder for Miracles to deal with and has more immediate impact on the board.
Those are valid points, but then I still have to find something else to cut (I'd rather not go to 61 cards). Maybe the Sakura Tribe Elder? I get the ramp factor is essential though, but it feels like the weakest card at the moment.


That was my list he posted, Prime Time felt great all day, as the recursion engine of Tower/Stronghold was really strong.

I'm also moving Meren out to the sideboard and cutting Nissa to the main. I would like to try Blood Moons in the sideboard though.

But yeah the deck is gas and is a lot of fun to play.
It's a pretty swish list, I was very impressed by it. I was actually already considering putting some number of Blood Moons in the board for Drazi (I want to have some fun with Glissa, but Blood Moon is better admittedly). I'm gonna throw some Leylines of the Void in the board though, but there's like 2 reanimator decks minimum in my meta and some number of dredge I think.

I like the recursion effect of Prime Time/Land combo, but I'd prefer Meren tbh. Less of a threat but much more value without sacrificing your draw step.


Definitely! Heck I've clinched games by sneaking in Deathrite Shaman to drain at instant speed :laugh:
... That's actually pretty neat, I didn't even realise that was something I could do. I really hope to kill someone with that for maximum salt of being killed by a sneak attacked DRS.

[volrathxp]

Those are valid points, but then I still have to find something else to cut (I'd rather not go to 61 cards). Maybe the Sakura Tribe Elder? I get the ramp factor is essential though, but it feels like the weakest card at the moment.


It's a pretty swish list, I was very impressed by it. I was actually already considering putting some number of Blood Moons in the board for Drazi (I want to have some fun with Glissa, but Blood Moon is better admittedly). I'm gonna throw some Leylines of the Void in the board though, but there's like 2 reanimator decks minimum in my meta and some number of dredge I think.

I like the recursion effect of Prime Time/Land combo, but I'd prefer Meren tbh. Less of a threat but much more value without sacrificing your draw step.


... That's actually pretty neat, I didn't even realise that was something I could do. I really hope to kill someone with that for maximum salt of being killed by a sneak attacked DRS.

Steve also has value in being able to turn off Jitte triggers with an active Meren (block sacrifice for the win).

Really in all actuality, 61 cards isn't going to hurt you with a deck that ramps like we do. It's felt fine in all of my testing (which was pretty extensive heading up to the Classic).

[volrathxp]

Definitely! Heck I've clinched games by sneaking in Deathrite Shaman to drain at instant speed :laugh:

I am going to have to remember this.

[zyren]

Besides planeswalkers, what other cards can we use to maximize atraxa's proliferate? I can think of:

Scavenging ooze
Tireless Tracker
umezawa's jitte

Anything else that works well?

[truthfulcake]

Steve also has value in being able to turn off Jitte triggers with an active Meren (block sacrifice for the win).

Really in all actuality, 61 cards isn't going to hurt you with a deck that ramps like we do. It's felt fine in all of my testing (which was pretty extensive heading up to the Classic).
Good ol Steve taking one for the team and killing himself repeatedly to infuriate your opponent. I think he's my cut though, I never ran him before this in my Junk build. Between 4 Vets and 2 DRS I think there's plenty of ramp.

I know the difference between 60 and 61 isn't a lot, but my inner spike wants to maximize my win percentages. Plus the deck only runs like 22 lands, I'd rather not dilute that anymore.


Besides planeswalkers, what other cards can we use to maximize atraxa's proliferate? I can think of:

Scavenging ooze
Tireless Tracker
umezawa's jitte

Anything else that works well?
You can get cute with some of the Quests from original Zen block. I know one of the blue ones lets you tutor for a card instead of drawing a card. Hangarback walker seems like a better target than Scooze for a proliferate target though value wise, but then you're playing hangarback walker in legacy.

[Navsi]

You don't need that many Proliferate targets, really. She's fine just as a 4/4 flying vigilance lifelink deathtouch.

That said, I was running Jitte and Tracker, and should probably have had Ooze. Other options :

Gavony Township (colorless lands in a 4c deck are bad though)
Meren (better at more 4cmc dorks that lose to Karakas)
Ring of Evos Isle / Ring of Xathrid (Other Stoneforge targets are better)
Miscellaneous Energy based cards from Kaladesh - Dynavolt Tower is probably the closest, and it's still garbage.
Deathmist Raptor / Den Protector combo might be worth trying out, although they don't interact well with Zenith.
Plenty of other mediocre guys. Common theme is not interacting with enemy guys and being vulnerable to removal, but there's plenty of card advantage and threats out there. Yisan could be fun. Warden of the First Tree is a guy I've wanted to try before.

[Brael]

It could be fun to proliferate Endless One or Hangarback Walker. I've experimented with both in my build to reasonable success. Walker is extra fun since Atraxa puts you in blue to use a Trinket Mage package already. Both creatures just being X cost are nice in 4 color builds too since you don't need to worry about any mana fixing for them.

On the subject of Warden of the First Tree, I actually tried it out while messing with a Ranger of Eos package. It was worse than Endless One or Walker. I think the same holds true just on it's own merits. While you can GSZ it, and then grow it right away in the mid to late game I'm not a fan of cards like that. It's just investing too much in one body only to eat Swords to Plowshares with no additional value.


You can get cute with some of the Quests from original Zen block. I know one of the blue ones lets you tutor for a card instead of drawing a card. Hangarback walker seems like a better target than Scooze for a proliferate target though value wise, but then you're playing hangarback walker in legacy.

I've played Hangarback Walker in multiple Nic Fit builds. I've played it in BUG using Trinket Mage as a way to Mage into a body, I've played it in Pod as Ranger/Mage targets to jump the curve. I've played it in my current build, although I'm currently on Endless One instead.

When Swords to Plowshares is on a decline, Hangarback Walker is actually pretty good. It's absolutely ridiculous in the Delver matchups and it's a pretty fantastic combat trick alongside Phyrexian Tower (for extra fun, Two Towers it)

[Qweerios]

Don't forget Spike Feeder, Spike Weaver, and Verdurous Gearhulk for +1/+1 counters. I would be inclined to believe that a Nic Fit list with 4 GSZ, 1 Atraxa, 1 Sigarda, and 1 Hulk would be enough to take away any game of Magic. You could even toss in a single Thrun or Siege Rhino and any superfriends shell with lots of control elements would have a ridiculous amount of aggro to it.

[Navsi]

I'm less inclined towards the bigger creatures. Any list with Atraxa in it is going to have access to finishers almost incidentally, and already has a Baneslayer equivalent along with probably Sigarda. I don't feel like dedicating many more slots to solely finishers is really worth it, since 90% of the time Atraxa and a Stoneforge -> Jitte is enough.

Incidentally are there any good ways of bouncing our own creatures that don't suck? Atraxa + Den Protector + Deathmist Raptor has me thinking now. Also good with Eternal Witness and Stoneforge.

[Ulysse95]

Besides planeswalkers, what other cards can we use to maximize atraxa's proliferate? I can think of:

Scavenging ooze
Tireless Tracker
umezawa's jitte

Anything else that works well?

Varolz, the Scar-Striped can be used as a zenitable sac engine and recycle the dead vet/strix/...

[TTX]

Besides planeswalkers, what other cards can we use to maximize atraxa's proliferate? I can think of:

Scavenging ooze
Tireless Tracker
umezawa's jitte

Anything else that works well?

Merens experience counters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brael]

Incidentally are there any good ways of bouncing our own creatures that don't suck? Atraxa + Den Protector + Deathmist Raptor has me thinking now. Also good with Eternal Witness and Stoneforge.

Both blue and green have the ability to return creatures to your hand as a cost.

The first that comes to my mind is Temur Sabertooth but I'm pretty sure there's some better options that don't cost any mana.

[removedfromgame]

So I've been having some small success with a Junk list similar to the one that did well at SCG balt. I want to tweak and update it and the sideboard is a trainwreck, but it looks like this:

Maindeck: 61

Lands: 22 (the weird fetch numbers are based around fetches I own, not the optimal ones)
3x heath
1x delta
1x Catacomb
1x Foothills
1x Mire
1x Flats
3 x Forest
3x Swamp
1x Plains
2x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x P. Tower
1x D. Arbor
1x Wasteland

Creatures: 16
4x Explorer
1x Deathrite
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x E. Witness
3x Siege Rhino
1x Thrun the Last Troll
1x Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1x Sigarda Host of Herons
1x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titan

Non-Creatures: 22
4x Therapy
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Thoughtsieze
1x Innocent Blood
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Deed
1x Pulse
1x Vindicate
1x Dismember
1x Painful Truths
4x Green Sun’s Zenith

Planeswalkers: 1
1x Nissa, Vital Force

board: 15

2x thoughtsieze
2x Choke
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Krosan Grip
2x To the Slaughter
1x Pithing Needleso
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited

Most of my testing is done at FNMs but this list has been putting up positive results. Nissa is a house and I genuinely feel like she is the walker that we needed, even more so than my previous champion Ob Nixilis. I'm also considering cutting the Grave Titan for a Tireless Tracker, keeping my top end at 5 and giving me another slot on my Green Sun curve.

As of late i've been finding the D&t match up difficult, even with three Deeds. I tend to get run over faster than I can handle their board. The list itself is pretty stock and I still run into the same problems versus combo, however I do have a positive win ratio against B/R reanimator.

Arguments for RiP vs Surgical Extraction in the board. I dislike Rest in Peace because I find I have to take out too much to accommodate it, but it can win games on its own. My local metagame is really all over the place so I have arguments for both, but it errs on the side of aggro/midrange and combo.

[Brael]

Incidentally are there any good ways of bouncing our own creatures that don't suck? Atraxa + Den Protector + Deathmist Raptor has me thinking now. Also good with Eternal Witness and Stoneforge.

Looking a bit more, I didn't see anything on gatherer that seemed powerful enough. But I only looked at creatures, if there's a spell that has an unsummon as a cost it might be ok.

[removedfromgame]

Looking a bit more, I didn't see anything on gatherer that seemed powerful enough. But I only looked at creatures, if there's a spell that has an unsummon as a cost it might be ok.

If you're playing blue, would venser be out of the question?

In terms of spells, there's Aether Spellbomb which we can use to bounce and cycle. Alternatively there's clutch of currents as a one mana option that could also be used to create a creature that combos with proliferate. There's also Far//Away which is a pretty nice 241.

[Qweerios]

I tried brewing an Atraxa superfriends list and I've concluded that the best option is a BUG deck with a single Savannah to hardcast Atraxa mainboard and have access to Teeg postboard. None of the PW compare to Lily and Jace, and Brainstorm is much better than StP in a Decay/Deed shell. Atraxa is great on its own and her proliferate ability becomes devastating when paired with Liliana (lots of sac or an early ultimate), Jace (tick up while brainstorming or 1 bounce per turn for Witness, Hulk, or Thragtusk maybe), Garruk (ticks up the fight ability while making 2/2s), or Gearhulk (grows everything every turn). Here's a first draft:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
1 Verdurous Gearhulk

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Sensei's Divining Too
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
//SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To the Slaughter
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize

[Navsi]

@Qweerios

I've actually been leaning towards going in the opposite direction, and running mostly white with a blue splash for Atraxa, Leovold, Tamiyo. I wasn't that impressed by JTMS myself when I played him, although I didn't see him that much.

[mstephenson]

Alright report time!

This was my first magic event that wasnt just our local scene and it was a blast and was really cool to see and meet people I have seen on camera before.

So I was playing
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Sun Titan
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

With a sideboard of
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Painful Truths
1 Krosan Grip
1 Glissa, The Traitor

R1 Against Miracles

G1: He mana flooded pretty hard this game and died from 2 Rhino hits and 4 Rhino triggers. Not much to say other than he showed mentors

-4 Vet -4 Cabal -1 Atraxa -1 Path +1 Elspeth sun champ +1 Garruk relentless +3 lost legacy +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Qasali pridemage +1 Gaddock Teeg +2 Painful Truths

Vets and cabals are both bad in the match up and atraxa dies to karakas and path is medium.
Elspeth/Garruk both make dudes for days they have to answer.
LL answers jace cleanly and if you ever see the 2 towers can just exile all their threats with E wit.
Deluge answers mentor much less excited about this against non mentor decks
Qasalie is a nice green sunable counterbalance killer that hits for 3.
Gaddock teeg is annoying for them.
Painful Turths is always good in slow matchups

G2: mull to 5 and die mentor

G3: We both durdle for a while early as neither of us have anything to do I have an early top as well as him and then at some point he slams Jace and brainstorms and then passes. I then slam Big daddy Sorin and shoot jace. Next turn still on 6 mana I draw a Rhino and then activate top and see Elspeth, Rhino, something else. So I plus Sorin reveal Elspeth and then cast rhino he has dropped form 17 to 8. He does nothing and then passes back and I top on end step and Rhino, something else, and kaya. Draw rhino plus sorin reveal kaya then cast Rhino taking him from 7 to 0.

1-0 so far hoping all the combo decks lost their g1 to eldrazi or something.

R2 Against Jacob Hagen on Miracales

G1: I die to jace the usual way we die to jace.

Side boarded the same as befoer

G2: I LL Jace and then beat him to death with a 2/2 wolf from garruk left around after he Councils judgemented it.

G3: This game ended up going to time because it was super grindy. on turn 5 he plays jace and brainstorms after concils judementing my leovold, I top and see Garruk, Nissa, Elspeth. Untap play Garruk make a dude. He snap councils Garruk and brianstorms some more. I untap and cast nissa which he forces. He plays CB and passes. I untap play elsepth and make dudes and pass. He terminus the first dudes. I draw a green sun and have 2 in hand now. Make dudes and pass(Im he has Counter top at this point). SO at this point he untaps and play mentor and passes back after playing top and this is now turn 0. On my turn I draw deed. I try and path mentor he throws top on top and then chumps snap(on brainstorm earlier) and mentor token away to keep his jace alive. So with him tapped out and with top on top I play deed with 2 mana left open and pass. He untaps and draws his second copy of wear tear(he had multiple tops at this point) and wear tears my deed. I pop it on 0(This might have been a missplay maybe I should of kept my tokens around not really sure) then shows me the second top and makes 6 tokens and kill elspeth. I draw nothing and die due to him having counterspell.

1-1 Bleh Feel like I should of had that game was kinda frustring that he saw Councils and his 1 of snap twice and then both wear tears as he used one earlier to make a mentor token and that game 1 he saw all 4 forces to stop me from answer jace in any meaningful fashion.

R3 Against Grixis Delver

G1: He sees 3 delvers in row and 3 bolts. I ended up shooting the first 2 but they all flipped quickly and I died just as quick.

-1 Soring Grim Nemsis, -1 Nissa, vital force +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Glissa
The fat walkers are really bad against delver as they are hard to cast and hard to protect.
Deluge kills their board which is nice
Glissa blocks gurmag and cant be hit by flying delvers like nissa can.

G2: We get going for a little bit and I answer all of his stuff and top out for something i dont remember what. Next turn he winter orbs me. Shit. I proceed to draw top and play top. Next turn draw decay. Damn I am good at this game. Turn after that blow up orb on his upkeep and drown him fat shit(pretty sure he died to a no value sun titan this game but I could be wrong)

G3: Same situation as game one we grind for a little bit and then he winter orbs me again, this time I have the decay in hand and draw the second land to cast it on his next turn and he proceeds to die to random fat shit.

2-1 so far not feeling too hot about my chance because there is combo out the ass for whatever reason 2 enchantress 2 storm 2 sneak and show 2 reanimaters and they where all 1-1 or better going into round 3

R4 Against Harley Forrest on B/R reanimater

G1: He makes T1 Grisslebrand. I die

-3 deed -3 decay +3 LL +2 surgical +1 deluge
Deeds and decays all suck in this matchup
LL well if I live long enough I can stop him cold
Surgicals are great
Deluge can kill their fatties and give us time

G2: I surgical his dude and he dies to a scooze. He could of won this game I believe because I cast a scoze of 1 land shaman(which he said he should of decayed it main phase) and the he proceeds to just cast random shit and grow my scoze. But later on he cast exhume. SO if he save all this with his 5 lands he could of put 3+ dudes in yard and cast exhume.

G3: I have an opening 7 of 4 land vet scoze and Atraxa. I think there is an argument to keeping this hand because he isn't b/u reanimater he can reanimate 1 dude quickly and then we should hopefully be able to get scoze out to stop future reanimations and trade atraxa with what ever he reanimated. Still doesnt beat T1 Gbrand so I pitch it but it turns out he had a slower hand with entomb exume and and I mulled to 4 because 5 and 6 were nonfunctional and keep 2 land vet scoze and then die to the gbrand on turn 2.

2-2 This matchup feels really rough. I think we can have some sideboard configuration that isnt aweful that makes this matchup better. Deathrite does not feel good against this deck at all. Im thinking the Toughtsizes over LL would help a lot for this matchup.

R5 Against Tezzerator

G1: He plays like 8 million cards while trying to empty his hand for bridge so he doesnt die to the vet plus rhino. I then cast deed and he is left with one permanent after his artifact lands and glimmer voids blow up.

-4 Cabal therapy +2 surgical +1 Grip +1 Qasali
Therapy felt really bad in this match up as he felt like a grindy deck
Grip/Qasali Answers to Bridge
surgical was because I know they play thopter sword in modern so I brought it in not really sure of what to expect but knowing the use the yard a lot.

G2: We both mull to 4. Im pretty sure this heavily favors us as they have to quickly kill us which is hard. I end up having 2 lands vet with path green sun in hand. He then cast a helm and I path my vet get a 3rd land and then top deck a Land get qasali with G sun and pass. He Collective brutality for all 3 modes(he has a bridge at this point) pitching leyline of the void and some other card. I blow up the helm(should of hit the bridge) and surgical the leyline which was his last card in hand. I blow up bridge at some point and then he dies.

3-2 Deed is hilariously good against that deck. At this point im live for top 16

R6 Against Jadine(think im spelling this right) on 4C delver

G1: I answer her early threats and then go Rhino into Atraxa into Sigarda. She has seen enough and we go to board.

Same as with Grixis Delver

G2: She really tempos me out of this game seeing a lot of counter magic along the way. I think I messed up when I took a turn off to put rhino on top of my library with stronghold. While rhino is really really good against delver and looked good on the board state and think answer more of her threats would have lead to me having a better chance later on.

G3: She plays early threats and I answer them with a deed and get some vet trigger(s). She then proceeds to play goyf, truename and deathrite with no cards left in hand and me with one. I have E wit in hand. I untap and play E wit return deed and play deed. Pass turn and chump goyf take 3 and then wipe the board and proceed to win from there.


Ended the day on 4-2 Tied for 10th( the breakers for the 9,10 and 11th were all really close) rather happy about showing up to my first non local legacy event and first time with nic fit and making top 16. Deck performed pretty well with the only time being mana screwed being when I mulled to 5 round 1 and then only time I was color screwed was against wastelandicales where I fetched the 2nd bayou making it the 3rd black and 4th green instead of getting second white and then drawing sun titan.

If there are any questions about card choices, side board choices, or anything in general do ask because ill be hanging around.


Edit: Quick edit with something I want to add Atraxa and l kaya were both great and kaya being amazing every time I drew her. I would recommend trying her out.
Also for anyone not running Nissa vital force the card is amazing, although she ate a force every time I cast her during the event

[mstephenson]

Merens experience counters.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And @zyren

I really like her just to be a flying batterskull that trades with anything. I dont really feel like she alone is compelling enough to care about the proliferate ability although ticking up our walkers in the fair matchups is pretty sweet got to ult a nissa twice today against shardless because of her!

[volrathxp]

Alright report time!

This was my first magic event that wasnt just our local scene and it was a blast and was really cool to see and meet people I have seen on camera before.

So I was playing
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Sun Titan
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

With a sideboard of
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Lost Legacy
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 ethersworn canonist
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Painful Truths
1 Krosan Grip
1 Glissa, The Traitor

R1 Against Miracles

G1: He mana flooded pretty hard this game and died from 2 Rhino hits and 4 Rhino triggers. Not much to say other than he showed mentors

-4 Vet -4 Cabal -1 Atraxa -1 Path +1 Elspeth sun champ +1 Garruk relentless +3 lost legacy +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Qasali pridemage +1 Gaddock Teeg +2 Painful Truths

Vets and cabals are both bad in the match up and atraxa dies to karakas and path is medium.
Elspeth/Garruk both make dudes for days they have to answer.
LL answers jace cleanly and if you ever see the 2 towers can just exile all their threats with E wit.
Deluge answers mentor much less excited about this against non mentor decks
Qasalie is a nice green sunable counterbalance killer that hits for 3.
Gaddock teeg is annoying for them.
Painful Turths is always good in slow matchups

G2: mull to 5 and die mentor

G3: We both durdle for a while early as neither of us have anything to do I have an early top as well as him and then at some point he slams Jace and brainstorms and then passes. I then slam Big daddy Sorin and shoot jace. Next turn still on 6 mana I draw a Rhino and then activate top and see Elspeth, Rhino, something else. So I plus Sorin reveal Elspeth and then cast rhino he has dropped form 17 to 8. He does nothing and then passes back and I top on end step and Rhino, something else, and kaya. Draw rhino plus sorin reveal kaya then cast Rhino taking him from 7 to 0.

1-0 so far hoping all the combo decks lost their g1 to eldrazi or something.

R2 Against Jacob Hagen on Miracales

G1: I die to jace the usual way we die to jace.

Side boarded the same as befoer

G2: I LL Jace and then beat him to death with a 2/2 wolf from garruk left around after he Councils judgemented it.

G3: This game ended up going to time because it was super grindy. on turn 5 he plays jace and brainstorms after concils judementing my leovold, I top and see Garruk, Nissa, Elspeth. Untap play Garruk make a dude. He snap councils Garruk and brianstorms some more. I untap and cast nissa which he forces. He plays CB and passes. I untap play elsepth and make dudes and pass. He terminus the first dudes. I draw a green sun and have 2 in hand now. Make dudes and pass(Im he has Counter top at this point). SO at this point he untaps and play mentor and passes back after playing top and this is now turn 0. On my turn I draw deed. I try and path mentor he throws top on top and then chumps snap(on brainstorm earlier) and mentor token away to keep his jace alive. So with him tapped out and with top on top I play deed with 2 mana left open and pass. He untaps and draws his second copy of wear tear(he had multiple tops at this point) and wear tears my deed. I pop it on 0(This might have been a missplay maybe I should of kept my tokens around not really sure) then shows me the second top and makes 6 tokens and kill elspeth. I draw nothing and die due to him having counterspell.

1-1 Bleh Feel like I should of had that game was kinda frustring that he saw Councils and his 1 of snap twice and then both wear tears as he used one earlier to make a mentor token and that game 1 he saw all 4 forces to stop me from answer jace in any meaningful fashion.

R3 Against Grixis Delver

G1: He sees 3 delvers in row and 3 bolts. I ended up shooting the first 2 but they all flipped quickly and I died just as quick.

-1 Soring Grim Nemsis, -1 Nissa, vital force +1 Toxic Deluge +1 Glissa
The fat walkers are really bad against delver as they are hard to cast and hard to protect.
Deluge kills their board which is nice
Glissa blocks gurmag and cant be hit by flying delvers like nissa can.

G2: We get going for a little bit and I answer all of his stuff and top out for something i dont remember what. Next turn he winter orbs me. Shit. I proceed to draw top and play top. Next turn draw decay. Damn I am good at this game. Turn after that blow up orb on his upkeep and drown him fat shit(pretty sure he died to a no value sun titan this game but I could be wrong)

G3: Same situation as game one we grind for a little bit and then he winter orbs me again, this time I have the decay in hand and draw the second land to cast it on his next turn and he proceeds to die to random fat shit.

2-1 so far not feeling too hot about my chance because there is combo out the ass for whatever reason 2 enchantress 2 storm 2 sneak and show 2 reanimaters and they where all 1-1 or better going into round 3

R4 Against Harley Forrest on B/R reanimater

G1: He makes T1 Grisslebrand. I die

-3 deed -3 decay +3 LL +2 surgical +1 deluge
Deeds and decays all suck in this matchup
LL well if I live long enough I can stop him cold
Surgicals are great
Deluge can kill their fatties and give us time

G2: I surgical his dude and he dies to a scooze. He could of won this game I believe because I cast a scoze of 1 land shaman(which he said he should of decayed it main phase) and the he proceeds to just cast random shit and grow my scoze. But later on he cast exhume. SO if he save all this with his 5 lands he could of put 3+ dudes in yard and cast exhume.

G3: I have an opening 7 of 4 land vet scoze and Atraxa. I think there is an argument to keeping this hand because he isn't b/u reanimater he can reanimate 1 dude quickly and then we should hopefully be able to get scoze out to stop future reanimations and trade atraxa with what ever he reanimated. Still doesnt beat T1 Gbrand so I pitch it but it turns out he had a slower hand with entomb exume and and I mulled to 4 because 5 and 6 were nonfunctional and keep 2 land vet scoze and then die to the gbrand on turn 2.

2-2 This matchup feels really rough. I think we can have some sideboard configuration that isnt aweful that makes this matchup better. Deathrite does not feel good against this deck at all. Im thinking the Toughtsizes over LL would help a lot for this matchup.

R5 Against Tezzerator

G1: He plays like 8 million cards while trying to empty his hand for bridge so he doesnt die to the vet plus rhino. I then cast deed and he is left with one permanent after his artifact lands and glimmer voids blow up.

-4 Cabal therapy +2 surgical +1 Grip +1 Qasali
Therapy felt really bad in this match up as he felt like a grindy deck
Grip/Qasali Answers to Bridge
surgical was because I know they play thopter sword in modern so I brought it in not really sure of what to expect but knowing the use the yard a lot.

G2: We both mull to 4. Im pretty sure this heavily favors us as they have to quickly kill us which is hard. I end up having 2 lands vet with path green sun in hand. He then cast a helm and I path my vet get a 3rd land and then top deck a Land get qasali with G sun and pass. He Collective brutality for all 3 modes(he has a bridge at this point) pitching leyline of the void and some other card. I blow up the helm(should of hit the bridge) and surgical the leyline which was his last card in hand. I blow up bridge at some point and then he dies.

3-2 Deed is hilariously good against that deck. At this point im live for top 16

R6 Against Jadine(think im spelling this right) on 4C delver

G1: I answer her early threats and then go Rhino into Atraxa into Sigarda. She has seen enough and we go to board.

Same as with Grixis Delver

G2: She really tempos me out of this game seeing a lot of counter magic along the way. I think I messed up when I took a turn off to put rhino on top of my library with stronghold. While rhino is really really good against delver and looked good on the board state and think answer more of her threats would have lead to me having a better chance later on.

G3: She plays early threats and I answer them with a deed and get some vet trigger(s). She then proceeds to play goyf, truename and deathrite with no cards left in hand and me with one. I have E wit in hand. I untap and play E wit return deed and play deed. Pass turn and chump goyf take 3 and then wipe the board and proceed to win from there.


Ended the day on 4-2 Tied for 10th( the breakers for the 9,10 and 11th were all really close) rather happy about showing up to my first non local legacy event and first time with nic fit and making top 16. Deck performed pretty well with the only time being mana screwed being when I mulled to 5 round 1 and then only time I was color screwed was against wastelandicales where I fetched the 2nd bayou making it the 3rd black and 4th green instead of getting second white and then drawing sun titan.

If there are any questions about card choices, side board choices, or anything in general do ask because ill be hanging around.


Edit: Quick edit with something I want to add Atraxa and l kaya were both great and kaya being amazing every time I drew her. I would recommend trying her out.
Also for anyone not running Nissa vital force the card is amazing, although she ate a force every time I cast her during the event

Nicely done. Great report.

On B/R Reanimator, Thoughtseize is a must, because you need to rip their hand to shreds to prevent them from doing their thing. They are way faster than you with a good hand, so this is really important to get rid of their reanimation spells in hand. I've even Surgicaled Exhumes before in this matchup because it feels so good to cut them off an avenue of reanimation.

This deck is semi popular locally so I see it enough. It's pretty easy to fight through once you know what their game plan is. Also the deck is very opening hand dependent so if they mulligan hard, you're headed in the right direction.

[mstephenson]

Nicely done. Great report.

On B/R Reanimator, Thoughtseize is a must, because you need to rip their hand to shreds to prevent them from doing their thing. They are way faster than you with a good hand, so this is really important to get rid of their reanimation spells in hand. I've even Surgicaled Exhumes before in this matchup because it feels so good to cut them off an avenue of reanimation.

This deck is semi popular locally so I see it enough. It's pretty easy to fight through once you know what their game plan is. Also the deck is very opening hand dependent so if they mulligan hard, you're headed in the right direction.

How much better is the matchup with thoughtsiezes?

[removedfromgame]

How much better is the matchup with thoughtsiezes?

Thoughtsieze makes the match much less scary and way more winnable. If you leave them stranded with creatures in hand or without a reanimated spell then you have more time to get your hate pieces or your finishers online.

[Echelon]

Besides planeswalkers, what other cards can we use to maximize atraxa's proliferate? I can think of:

Scavenging ooze
Tireless Tracker
umezawa's jitte

Anything else that works well?


And @zyren

I really like her just to be a flying batterskull that trades with anything. I dont really feel like she alone is compelling enough to care about the proliferate ability although ticking up our walkers in the fair matchups is pretty sweet got to ult a nissa twice today against shardless because of her!

That. The card just has a bunch of cool, simple keyword abilities. Proliferate is pretty much flavour text. Any value it might give you is incidental, no need to specifically build for it.

[JackaBo]

Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/kItS7wj.png
http://i.imgur.com/kItS7wj.png
Bruh

[Echelon]

Bruh

I don't know how to respond to that.

[sdematt]

Dromoka should just be Sigarda.

Also, all walkers and no Standstill makes Matt a dull boy.

[rubblekill]

That list looks definitely weird, and that means that it is amazing. I bet that it's very fun to pilot.
Anyways, I have been playing a good lot of PW lists after Arian posted his in June/July and I have to say that I don't think a heavy PW approach is a winning one. It's the funniest and most enjoyable approach to the archetype in my opinion, but my conclusion is that the core of the deck only needs a "supporting" PW (new nissa) that improves what we do well already (drop giant dudes and recur dead giant dudes).
We only want *multiple* walkers against miracles basically, because against creatures rhino tusk Dromoka titans are the best already, but even then I noticed that they can (and will) win out of nowhere due to entreat or the infinite answers they have to literally everything in their colors.
The best walker against miracles in my experience was big Sorin (and Vraska, which I also played..........) because he could kill jace.
But after a lot of play testing, I eventually established that the most "unfair" card against miracles is tsunami, it literally is the only sort of I win button in the late game because it literally wins on the spot. They have to have mana open on the spot or otherwise they can't remove the effects of the sorcery afterwards. Instead planeswalkers are slow (except new nissa, again) and give them time to entreat or find something to remove our threats which is very very annoying.
I played every good PW in junk colors but the only one I'm currently running is nissa because she instantly gives a 5/5 haste (good against control and gives a protective 5/5 against smasher and goyf) and can regrow a dude, the girl is underrated in my opinion.

E. I can't talk about blue walkers, jace seems very good in the control match up.

[bruizar]

Walkers are a trap, you're playing a GSZ deck. Play to your strengths. If you so desperately want a walker, take a catch all like Karn or Ugin.

[Navsi]

Walkers are a trap, you're playing a GSZ deck. Play to your strengths. If you so desperately want a walker, take a catch all like Karn or Ugin.

Diversity in threats is a strength.

[rubblekill]

Diversity in threats is a strength.

I wholeheartedly agree, but note that I was talking about a *heavy* PW approach. I like the idea of strong creatures, necessary rhino life gain AND a support role oriented planeswalker. Nissa is our girl.
GSZ is the reason to play the deck, and the reason I will always play Dromoka over the baneslayers or the non green titans. Walkers are not fetchable and shall not be the main focus of the deck, just a happy little bonus that improves the consistency of what we do well already.
Now the real question is if Atraxa changes this.

[Navsi]

I still have never been impressed by Rhinos. I can see the use of a single one, for a threat/stabilizer that's cheaper than Thragtusk and carries a Sword well because of trample. But running more than that just looks like it's dedicating a ton of slots to matchups we already win, and losing out on removal and card advantage for the matchups we actually have trouble with.

[rubblekill]

I still have never been impressed by Rhinos. I can see the use of a single one, for a threat/stabilizer that's cheaper than Thragtusk and carries a Sword well because of trample. But running more than that just looks like it's dedicating a ton of slots to matchups we already win, and losing out on removal and card advantage for the matchups we actually have trouble with.

I also agree, infact I am no longer playing more than 2 max rhinos.

[ClimbGneiss]

I've been working on an Abzan Nicfit list with a friend of mine for a while now. Could use some constructive criticism about how to finish off the deck. Please note that the numbers that show ranges (ie, 0-3 or 1-4) are places where I'd like some notes about what direction would be best. I may be under or over 60 in the MD or under/over 15 in the main.

It seems to me that this deck should a high win %, if built properly, against any fair deck. But, there's a dozen decks that do that. How do we build this main and sb such that it breaks ever versus control and wins in the post board. How do we build it such that it breaks even in post board games versus combo?


Cmc 0
1 Dryad Arbor

Cmc 1
4 Veteran Explorer
3-4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1-3 Sensei's Divining Top
0-3 Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile

Cmc2
3-4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Flayer
1 Qasali Pridemage
0-1 Gaddock Teeg

Cmc 3
1 Courser or Kruphix
1-2 Eternal Witness*
1 Tireless Tracker
0-1 Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse
2-3 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Liliana of the Veil
0-1 Toxic Deluge
0-1 Kitchen Finks

Cmc 4
2-3 Siege Rhino
0-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
0-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Cmc 5
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
0-1 Thragtusk
0-1 The Gitrog Monster

LANDS
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1-2 Plains
0-1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland



Sideboard
0-2 Slaughter Games vs 0-2 lost legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needles
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Trinisphere*
2 Duress
1 Null Rod


As a side note, I've been toying with the red splash idea. Mostly, this was because of the idea that our combo matchup can be so bad and running slaughter games can be a life saver if you can get to 4 mana. Blood moon has also been a possibility.
Recently I saw a list, that I wasn't huge fan of, that had two intereating card choices. It splashed blue for Atraxa, Praetor's Voice and Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I appreciate your thoughts.

[Echelon]

List

I mostly have questions.

Why 4 Forest?
Why a Reclamation Sage in the SB when you already run a Qasali Pridemage in the MB?
Why have spotremoval in the SB, to what end?

In general - what's your thinking behind the odd choices? What do you think they do that you need to improve certain MUs?

Your list seems rather unfocused.

[square_two]

I would think that 8 walkers demands some number of Oath of Nissa. That way you don't have to have a fragile landbase to support the tougher-to-cast ones.

[truthfulcake]

I've been working on an Abzan Nicfit list with a friend of mine for a while now. Could use some constructive criticism about how to finish off the deck. Please note that the numbers that show ranges (ie, 0-3 or 1-4) are places where I'd like some notes about what direction would be best. I may be under or over 60 in the MD or under/over 15 in the main.

It seems to me that this deck should a high win %, if built properly, against any fair deck. But, there's a dozen decks that do that. How do we build this main and sb such that it breaks ever versus control and wins in the post board. How do we build it such that it breaks even in post board games versus combo?


Cmc 0
1 Dryad Arbor

Cmc 1
4 Veteran Explorer
3-4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1-3 Sensei's Divining Top
0-3 Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile

Cmc2
3-4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Flayer
1 Qasali Pridemage
0-1 Gaddock Teeg

Cmc 3
1 Courser or Kruphix
1-2 Eternal Witness*
1 Tireless Tracker
0-1 Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse
2-3 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Liliana of the Veil
0-1 Toxic Deluge
0-1 Kitchen Finks

Cmc 4
2-3 Siege Rhino
0-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
0-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Cmc 5
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
0-1 Thragtusk
0-1 The Gitrog Monster

LANDS
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1-2 Plains
0-1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland



Sideboard
0-2 Slaughter Games vs 0-2 lost legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needles
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Trinisphere*
2 Duress
1 Null Rod


As a side note, I've been toying with the red splash idea. Mostly, this was because of the idea that our combo matchup can be so bad and running slaughter games can be a life saver if you can get to 4 mana. Blood moon has also been a possibility.
Recently I saw a list, that I wasn't huge fan of, that had two intereating card choices. It splashed blue for Atraxa, Praetor's Voice and Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I appreciate your thoughts.
Two things I noticed from a glance- running Dryad Arbor and Deluge/Deed are non-bos, you'll wasteland yourself to clean up the board. And you can't really afford to run Gaddock Teeg mainboard in a deck that runs 4x GSZ. It's a fine sideboard card, but turning off all of your Zeniths is a problem.

Not sure I like Gitrog in your five-drop slot. I mean sure, it generates card advantage on a 6/6 body for 5, but I'd rather have Nissa, Vital Force in that slot. It's not a zenith target, but all of her abilities are relevant. Grim Flayer is some interesting spice though- but I don't see the appeal as a Zenith target personally, which is going to be how you'll get it more often than not with it being a one-of. I'd rather naturally curve into a flayer to set up your next few draws rather than Zenith for one.

And I dont think a Junk Fit list breaks even against combo unless you put like 4x Thoughtseize, 4x Hymn and 2-3x Surgical Extractions in your board. And even then you still lose to the good ol' Turn 1 Emrakul that can still happen on the draw.

[Echelon]

running Dryad Arbor and Deluge/Deed are non-bos, you'll wasteland yourself to clean up the board.

Arbor + Deed/Deluge is fine as long as you run Meren and Diabolic Intent.

[Navsi]

It seems to me that this deck should a high win %, if built properly, against any fair deck. But, there's a dozen decks that do that. How do we build this main and sb such that it breaks ever versus control and wins in the post board. How do we build it such that it breaks even in post board games versus combo?


1 Dryad Arbor
3-4 Cabal Therapy
1-3 Sensei's Divining Top
0-3 Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile
3-4 Abrupt Decay
1 Grim Flayer
0-1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Courser or Kruphix
1-2 Eternal Witness*
0-2 Liliana of the Veil
0-1 Toxic Deluge
0-1 Kitchen Finks
0-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
0-1 Thragtusk
0-1 The Gitrog Monster

All the above stuff is at least slightly questionable.

You only want Dryad Arbor if you're playing Meren.
Play 4 Cabal Therapy unless you want to lose to STP and combo decks.
You need 2 tops minimum, run 3 unless you have a good reason. There aren't any good substitutes in Abzan colours (Library is okay but don't run more than 1)
You need some number of Swords/Paths, or you lose to Lands and other decks that make big creatures. Run Path if you consider your clock to be more important than your DnT matchup.
No need for 4 decays unless Miracles/Delver is absolutely everywhere. You have Swords to make up your removal numbers.
Grim Flayer doesn't really do what the deck needs. If you want an agressive CA guy, play Tireless Tracker.
Teeg is fine, swap between side and main depending on your meta.
Courser is pretty unimpressive unless you see way too much Burn.
1 Witness is enough, you have Zenith.
Liliana is pretty crap without more graveyard interaction. Therapy is not enough.
Deluge can swap in for the third Deed if you run lots of noncreature permanents and are more worried about midrange than aggro.
Finks are a sideboard option if you're facing down a ton of fast aggro.
Rhino is pretty much straight up better than Huntmaster if you have access to white mana.
Titania is awful unless you're building around her at least a bit (i.e. running Sylvan Safekeeper).
Always play Thragtusk unless you have a good reason not to.
Gitrog is a 6/6 and doesn't do much else. If you see a ton of Eldrazi, swap him for Glissa. If you don't, just cut him, he's not good anywhere else.

[volrathxp]

I've been working on an Abzan Nicfit list with a friend of mine for a while now. Could use some constructive criticism about how to finish off the deck. Please note that the numbers that show ranges (ie, 0-3 or 1-4) are places where I'd like some notes about what direction would be best. I may be under or over 60 in the MD or under/over 15 in the main.

It seems to me that this deck should a high win %, if built properly, against any fair deck. But, there's a dozen decks that do that. How do we build this main and sb such that it breaks ever versus control and wins in the post board. How do we build it such that it breaks even in post board games versus combo?


Cmc 0
1 Dryad Arbor

Cmc 1
4 Veteran Explorer
3-4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1-3 Sensei's Divining Top
0-3 Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile

Cmc2
3-4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Flayer
1 Qasali Pridemage
0-1 Gaddock Teeg

Cmc 3
1 Courser or Kruphix
1-2 Eternal Witness*
1 Tireless Tracker
0-1 Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse
2-3 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Liliana of the Veil
0-1 Toxic Deluge
0-1 Kitchen Finks

Cmc 4
2-3 Siege Rhino
0-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
0-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Cmc 5
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
0-1 Thragtusk
0-1 The Gitrog Monster

LANDS
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1-2 Plains
0-1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland



Sideboard
0-2 Slaughter Games vs 0-2 lost legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needles
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Trinisphere*
2 Duress
1 Null Rod


As a side note, I've been toying with the red splash idea. Mostly, this was because of the idea that our combo matchup can be so bad and running slaughter games can be a life saver if you can get to 4 mana. Blood moon has also been a possibility.
Recently I saw a list, that I wasn't huge fan of, that had two intereating card choices. It splashed blue for Atraxa, Praetor's Voice and Leovold, Emissary of Trest

I appreciate your thoughts.

A few others have hit important points, I would like to point out further that you shouldn't be considering Lily of the Veil. She's not great in Junk Fit, because you don't want to be discarding threats and you're not running cards that synergize with her like Modern Abzan does (Lingering Souls, etc.).

Lily is better suited for decks like Punishing Fit (or even Sneak with Groves/PFire) because it synergizes with PFire when you're plusing her.

[volrathxp]

All the above stuff is at least slightly questionable.

You only want Dryad Arbor if you're playing Meren.
Play 4 Cabal Therapy unless you want to lose to STP and combo decks.
You need 2 tops minimum, run 3 unless you have a good reason. There aren't any good substitutes in Abzan colours (Library is okay but don't run more than 1)
You need some number of Swords/Paths, or you lose to Lands and other decks that make big creatures. Run Path if you consider your clock to be more important than your DnT matchup.
No need for 4 decays unless Miracles/Delver is absolutely everywhere. You have Swords to make up your removal numbers.
Grim Flayer doesn't really do what the deck needs. If you want an agressive CA guy, play Tireless Tracker.
Teeg is fine, swap between side and main depending on your meta.
Courser is pretty unimpressive unless you see way too much Burn.
1 Witness is enough, you have Zenith.
Liliana is pretty crap without more graveyard interaction. Therapy is not enough.
Deluge can swap in for the third Deed if you run lots of noncreature permanents and are more worried about midrange than aggro.
Finks are a sideboard option if you're facing down a ton of fast aggro.
Rhino is pretty much straight up better than Huntmaster if you have access to white mana.
Titania is awful unless you're building around her at least a bit (i.e. running Sylvan Safekeeper).
Always play Thragtusk unless you have a good reason not to.
Gitrog is a 6/6 and doesn't do much else. If you see a ton of Eldrazi, swap him for Glissa. If you don't, just cut him, he's not good anywhere else.

Solid advice. I would also like to point out 3 Deed is definitely the sweet spot. The card is too good to cut down to 2.

[Ricardio]

I would think that 8 walkers demands some number of Oath of Nissa. That way you don't have to have a fragile landbase to support the tougher-to-cast ones.

the list was thrown together but oath was considered. deed makes it lose a lot of its allure.

As for the viability of the deck, I am not hopeful. I am just biding time while leo and atraxa lose price online so I can work on more competitive lists.

[truthfulcake]

the list was thrown together but oath was considered. deed makes it lose a lot of its allure.

As for the viability of the deck, I am not hopeful. I am just biding time while leo and atraxa lose price online so I can work on more competitive lists.
The downside of Oath dying to Deed is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it replaces itself. The rest of the text is really just gravy.


Arbor + Deed/Deluge is fine as long as you run Meren and Diabolic Intent.
I didn't think of the Meren/Arbor synergy, that does offset the issue. Plus I can't argue with the value train of Meren ever.

Admittedly, I just really don't like Dryad Arbor as a card in general, I've played it a few times and was never happy to see the damn thing. I understand the upsides as a free elvish mystic and GSZ for 0, but I think Nic Fit has plenty of adequate ramp already.

[emuhell]

Looking at the "current" Scapewish versions of the deck (e.g. this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12253&d=270551)and this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12777&d=274101)) I want to say that the manabase looks terrible! How can this be consistent? I tested a few games and afterwards did just some random starthand peeking - the number of times the starthand lacked reasonable mana was too high!

I do not think that playing a PFire package is worth to drop ALL fetchlands - but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Additionally I want to state that the whole Burning Wish package is a ton of fun but in my experience just helps to improve G1 against Miracles by providing Access to Slaughter Games.

I do really think that the deck needs a rework, and I'm planning to come up with one.
Are there any more recent approaches to tackle the current meta (especially including Eldrazis) with this deck?

[Navsi]

Looking at the "current" Scapewish versions of the deck (e.g. this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12253&d=270551)and this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12777&d=274101)) I want to say that the manabase looks terrible! How can this be consistent? I tested a few games and afterwards did just some random starthand peeking - the number of times the starthand lacked reasonable mana was too high!

I do not think that playing a PFire package is worth to drop ALL fetchlands - but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Additionally I want to state that the whole Burning Wish package is a ton of fun but in my experience just helps to improve G1 against Miracles by providing Access to Slaughter Games.

I do really think that the deck needs a rework, and I'm planning to come up with one.
Are there any more recent approaches to tackle the current meta (especially including Eldrazis) with this deck?

Burning Wish also lets you run 5 virtual copies of Scapeshift while not having your hand clogged with them anywhere near as frequently.

Running Punishing Fire is IMO not worth it, mainly because it's at its best against the decks you should already beat, and it ruins the manabase pretty badly.

IMO you should drop the Groves for a more stable manabase, and run Kolaghan's Command in those slots instead. If you see a lot of Eldrazi, you're probably screwed no matter what because Warping Wail counters all your good spells, but multiple Thragtusks are probably your best bet.

[Ricardio]

Scapeshift is barely competitive in modern and the back up plan is not realistic.

[emuhell]

Scapeshift is barely competitive in modern and the back up plan is not realistic.

I guess you meant to say it's barely competitive in Legacy... well we are not working on Nic Fit because of its competitivity.

I think that the deck should be Nic Fit with an "Oops, I win" in it - just like SneakFit currently is.

EDIT: of course we want to raise the competitivity.

[Zirath]

I guess you meant to say it's barely competitive in Legacy... well we are not working on Nic Fit because of its competitivity.

I think that the deck should be Nic Fit with an "Oops, I win" in it - just like SneakFit currently is.

EDIT: of course we want to raise the competitivity.

I think his point is that the card Scapeshift isn't good enough for Modern at the moment because of the speed of the format (TitanBreach is the better deck by performance). Legacy is considerably faster than it was when Scapewish was strong. The reason people are moving to different builds is because Scapeshift requires you to be at least at turn 5 (usually much later) in order to end the game. With the way the format looks, this is too late generally since the list also has to play many lands to guarantee the consistency of Scapeshift.

[Navsi]

Scapeshift is a very powerful effect which does reliably end games. However it has almost no utility unless it's scoring lethal, and it applies pressure to the mana base pretty badly.

- You have ~2 cards you never ever want to draw (Valakuts)
- You have another ~1 card that's completely useless unless you're going off (Scapeshift)
- Burning Wish is pretty slow given the current speed of Legacy
- Jund doesn't have a particularly good backup beatdown plan, especially when your manabase is strained so you can't play Punishing Fire safely.
- A lot of hate that combo decks get to ignore is good against us. Namely, Wasteland.

I don't think there's a way to get Scapeshift to a fast enough speed to combo off competitively against most enemies. That means we're going to need to go down a more midrange plan with the combo as a backup. I'm tempted to say that zero Scapeshifts main is the right choice, and just playing a Burning Wish midrange/control deck most of the time.

[moseby]

Played Sneaky-fit yesterday at the LGS, with pretty much a stock list except I subbed scooze for tusk, and a 3rd top for 2nd DRS. 3 Tops has always felt like the right number for me.

Played Miracles (2-0) punishing fire vs jace and gideon was just back breaking
Infect: (0-2) mulled multiple times both games to find business, and never felt like I was in it in either game.
Bug delver (2-1) was tight all 3 games but a resolved sneak is basically gg.
U/B Reanimator: (1-2) Collective Brutality is a beating vs all our GSZable answers. One of the games saw this play Kill my DRS take my GSZ and drop a Gbanned in the yard, so broken, that needs the ban hammer.

Thoughts; I never saw Meren, I like her but I believe I sided her out every match, as she is slow, and if they do bring in Yard hate, at best it is a 3/4 for 4, Maybe a Tireless Tracker to fill that spot? Also I like Sidisi but with no way to tutor for it, it just seems like a 5 mana tutor. To the Slaughter was fantastic vs reanimator, and zombie fishes, I am going to comtemplate playing a 2nd in the board. I am definitely going to be bringing out this list again.

[Ricardio]

I guess you meant to say it's barely competitive in Legacy... well we are not working on Nic Fit because of its competitivity.

I think that the deck should be Nic Fit with an "Oops, I win" in it - just like SneakFit currently is.

EDIT: of course we want to raise the competitivity.

Please, don't question my loyalty to making this deck better.
Sneak attack will likely win you the game but it also inherently works with your deck of large creatures and its acceptable to jam it on 4 mana.


I think his point is that the card Scapeshift isn't good enough for Modern at the moment because of the speed of the format (TitanBreach is the better deck by performance). Legacy is considerably faster than it was when Scapewish was strong. The reason people are moving to different builds is because Scapeshift requires you to be at least at turn 5 (usually much later) in order to end the game. With the way the format looks, this is too late generally since the list also has to play many lands to guarantee the consistency of Scapeshift.

Agreed with most you say, albeit I think titanshift is more consistent than breach but that is sacrificed for a 1 turn faster. Another thread. haha


Scapeshift is a very powerful effect which does reliably end games. However it has almost no utility unless it's scoring lethal, and it applies pressure to the mana base pretty badly.

- You have ~2 cards you never ever want to draw (Valakuts)
- You have another ~1 card that's completely useless unless you're going off (Scapeshift)
- Burning Wish is pretty slow given the current speed of Legacy
- Jund doesn't have a particularly good backup beatdown plan, especially when your manabase is strained so you can't play Punishing Fire safely.
- A lot of hate that combo decks get to ignore is good against us. Namely, Wasteland.

I don't think there's a way to get Scapeshift to a fast enough speed to combo off competitively against most enemies. That means we're going to need to go down a more midrange plan with the combo as a backup. I'm tempted to say that zero Scapeshifts main is the right choice, and just playing a Burning Wish midrange/control deck most of the time.

That's a spot on analysis. I fear nic fit is simply too weak a burning wish deck.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love scapeshift but I know it needs something huge to be playable in legacy and I know if that happens and made legal in modern, I will lose scapeshift in modern and that's not a good trade off imho.

I think Rubble's thought process on tsunami is correct but making it resolve is the uphill battle. (not giving him credit for tsunami since it wasn't him, just good thinking)

[Navsi]

Collective Brutality is great. I guess it's another point in favor of discard spells, since Therapy and Thoughtseize go under it.

To The Slaughter is great, although I'm currently leaning towards Pithing Needle in that slot. Still works against lands, Miracles and Griselbrand decks, but easier on the mana and helps vs DnT instead of helping kill Goyfs and Anglers.

[Zirath]

That's a spot on analysis. I fear nic fit is simply too weak a burning wish deck.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love scapeshift but I know it needs something huge to be playable in legacy and I know if that happens and made legal in modern, I will lose scapeshift in modern and that's not a good trade off imho.

Again, this is an issue of speed. We simply don't have enough room for all the cards we need in Scapewish to go off quickly AND not die. There's something to be said about theorycrafting a list that focuses completely on the ramp and combo, but it likely will not have any other plan and this is a format where looping Wastelands exists and Blood Moon is more relevant than ever.

The other issue I see is that Scapewish was strongest in an era of RUG Delver, Maverick, Miracles, Goblins, and Sneak Show. Shardless and Deathblade allowed it to stay strong for a while but Miracles and Shardless are the only decks that survived from that era.

Collective Brutality is a real card. Anyone who is thinking about it should give it a try. It's seriously broken.

You can ask Arian how he feels about To the Slaughter. He was very happy with it.

[gth842s]

Well, I had typed up a really long tournament report from my weekly last night, but I didn't copy it before submitting and the forum logged me out. Here's the short version because I'm not typing that all over again.

For reference, here is my list:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Nissa, Vital Force

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Silvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB:

2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Liliana, the Last Hope (Usually is Engineered Plague or Dread of Night, wanted to try it out)
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth


R1: Loss to Tin Fins (1-2)
Game one I'm able to beat down before they can put together their combo through Deathrite. Game two I whiff on therapy and he combos. Game three I hit Goryo's Vengeance on therapy but he just rips another one blind off the top and wins.

R2: Win vs. Pros-Bloom (2-0)
Game one he isn't able to assemble the combo through decay and random beats including a Rhino. If he hadn't ramped me with his own Veteran Explorer I might have lost. Game two I disrupt him long enough to get Kaya and Liliana going with Tracker for attacks and close out the game.

R3: Win vs Miracles (2-0)
Game one my opponent invests early in Venser + Karakas but I'm able to disrupt it with Deed + Swords. He's fairly dry at this point and I test him with a series of bombs (GSZ into Rhino into Grave Titan). Titan closes out the game in two turns. Game two my opponent floods on counterbalances early but I'm able to keep him off the lock thanks to Deed and Therapy. Nissa does serious, serious work alongside Volrath's Stronghold. My opponent exhausts a lot of resources fighting off Nissa - several Terminus and a Swords and a Vendillion Clique on chump duty. I end up winning with Liliana, Rhino, Nissa on board and tracker in my hand. Silvan library was insane this game.

R4: Win vs. Grixis Painter (2-0)
Game one is super grindy. Kaya faced down Tezzeret at one point. My opponent was barely hurt by Deed wiping out something like 6 or 7 of his permanents. Eventually I get there with Rhino and Primeval Titan. My opponent says he could have won but played too cautiously, so I might have gotten lucky.
Game two is similar to game one. Deed, Pridemage, Eternal Witness + Stronghold get me there through Tezzeret, Daretti, and multiple smuggler's copters.

Overall I wouldn't change the deck at all other than the trial Liliana in the board and maybe Dryad Arbor. Arbor didn't feel necessary vs. Miracles and I don't have a lot of backbreaking turn 3 plays to ramp into in my build. The deck felt flexible, powerful, and like it had an answer to almost anything the opponent was doing. Obviously combo is still a weak spot, but we do have tools to make it a game.

My one question-mark right now is Aluren. How do you guys board for Aluren, and how have you typically beaten it (how do the games play out)? There's been a lot of Aluren in my local meta and I've been able to dodge it so far.

Also, and this is just a thought I've been toying with - could we theoretically cut 1 land, 1 threat, and 2 whatever cards for 4 Gitaxian Probes?

Questions? Thoughts? Comments?

[truthfulcake]

Collective Brutality is a real card. Anyone who is thinking about it should give it a try. It's seriously broken.

You can ask Arian how he feels about To the Slaughter. He was very happy with it.
Almost any modal card is good since they're letting you do multiple things for one card, but Collective Brutality is like a super Command, since you can do three things with it instead of just. And you can do it on turn 2 without a downside in the right deck. Card is nuts.

Also not sure how I feel about To The Slaughter, 3 mana over 2 mana is relevant. A lot of the time it's going to get rid of a creature, so its just an overcosted edict, but being able to kill a planeswalker as well is pretty neat. What matchups is it good against though? It's nice against a Marit Lage or an Emrakul, but I'd rather Blood Moon my opponent for the first and I'd probably still lose to the second with a To the Slaughter in hand anyway.

[Surfkatt]

Please, don't question my loyalty to making this deck better.
Sneak attack will likely win you the game but it also inherently works with your deck of large creatures and its acceptable to jam it on 4 mana.



Agreed with most you say, albeit I think titanshift is more consistent than breach but that is sacrificed for a 1 turn faster. Another thread. haha



That's a spot on analysis. I fear nic fit is simply too weak a burning wish deck.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love scapeshift but I know it needs something huge to be playable in legacy and I know if that happens and made legal in modern, I will lose scapeshift in modern and that's not a good trade off imho.

I think Rubble's thought process on tsunami is correct but making it resolve is the uphill battle. (not giving him credit for tsunami since it wasn't him, just good thinking)

As someone who has played Scapewish off and on for about 3-4 years and won an IQ during the hayday of Cruise with it, I unfortunately agree. I have an undying love for shift, I have it pimped out in modern (where it is not a good deck right now) and I have to admit that it is just too dang clunky/underpowered for legacy. I moved away from Nic Fit for that reason, Shift was the only version I liked given it could actually close games quick. Now with these sneaky fit lists floating around (praise be to Arianrhod and friends) I wanna give Nic Fit another go. Just bought into it on mtgo so lets see how it goes :)

[Ralf]

I tried brewing an Atraxa superfriends list and I've concluded that the best option is a BUG deck with a single Savannah to hardcast Atraxa mainboard and have access to Teeg postboard. None of the PW compare to Lily and Jace, and Brainstorm is much better than StP in a Decay/Deed shell. Atraxa is great on its own and her proliferate ability becomes devastating when paired with Liliana (lots of sac or an early ultimate), Jace (tick up while brainstorming or 1 bounce per turn for Witness, Hulk, or Thragtusk maybe), Garruk (ticks up the fight ability while making 2/2s), or Gearhulk (grows everything every turn). Here's a first draft:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Thragtusk
1 Verdurous Gearhulk

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Sensei's Divining Too
3 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
//SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 To the Slaughter
4 Negate
4 Thoughtseize


I like the idea but the deck has to be fine tuned:
- Not enough island to my taste. Jace is a damned gigolo...
- Not sure you can tank long enough against Drazi with that setup. Some combination of Strix / SCM might be needed or other ideas to be assessed.
- Leovold + Teeg ? I feel there is a bit of overlap, here.
- Ishkana is good to very good in a BUG shell (according to my testing).
- 1 copy of Perilous Research somewhere? So much juice with BUG in general.

[Ricardio]

I like the idea but the deck has to be fine tuned:
- Not enough island to my taste. Jace is a damned gigolo...
- Not sure you can tank long enough against Drazi with that setup. Some combination of Strix / SCM might be needed or other ideas to be assessed.
- Leovold + Teeg ? I feel there is a bit of overlap, here.
- Ishkana is good to very good in a BUG shell (according to my testing).
- 1 copy of Perilous Research somewhere? So much juice with BUG in general.

I don't like lotv outside of PF builds, personally. Also with Atraxa, does master bio become more interesting?

[Zirath]

Almost any modal card is good since they're letting you do multiple things for one card, but Collective Brutality is like a super Command, since you can do three things with it instead of just. And you can do it on turn 2 without a downside in the right deck. Card is nuts.

Also not sure how I feel about To The Slaughter, 3 mana over 2 mana is relevant. A lot of the time it's going to get rid of a creature, so its just an overcosted edict, but being able to kill a planeswalker as well is pretty neat. What matchups is it good against though? It's nice against a Marit Lage or an Emrakul, but I'd rather Blood Moon my opponent for the first and I'd probably still lose to the second with a To the Slaughter in hand anyway.

To the Slaughter was actually primarily for Miracles and Lands, where they have a single threat to answer. It's specifically for decks with a single threat. It never comes in against any creature deck. We have better tools for small creatures.

[Echelon]

I think Nic Fit has plenty of adequate ramp already.

I beg to differ. Ramp is the first thing people tend to skip on, and often in favor of CMC >= 5 cards. That's just silly. Heck, looking at what we came up with for the SE version of the deck even my list is still a ramp slot short of the mark.

The thing is - the ramp cards we do play usually also function as removal bait, ensuring our opponent doesn't have the removal anymore when the actual threat comes down. Or rather, that's how I play out my games. Feed my opponent a DRS or 2 or whatever little crud I have, then overpower them with a Tireless Tracker (since they're now fresh out of Bolts/ADs). Advance my board state, and at some point go "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino".

[mstephenson]

I beg to differ. Ramp is the first thing people tend to skip on, and often in favor of CMC >= 5 cards. That's just silly. Heck, looking at what we came up with for the SE version of the deck even my list is still a ramp slot short of the mark.

The thing is - the ramp cards we do play usually also function as removal bait, ensuring our opponent doesn't have the removal anymore when the actual threat comes down. Or rather, that's how I play out my games. Feed my opponent a DRS or 2 or whatever little crud I have, then overpower them with a Tireless Tracker (since they're now fresh out of Bolts/ADs). Advance my board state, and at some point go "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino".

I personally find the ramp thing not really all that great as I don't find that I am trying to ramp stuff out so much as survive until I can cast Rhinos and such. I think Vet and DRS are really the best ramp by far as Vet stops ground pounders from attacking and synergies with cabal super well and DRS isn't a dead draw late game like other ramp spells. While they both have the potential to just straight ramp I find lower CMC spells are much better being interactive and letting us get to the late game rather than try to accelerate to it. After all this not to say ramp is bad but that I personally would rather be playing more interactive spells.

[Echelon]

I personally find the ramp thing not really all that great as I don't find that I am trying to ramp stuff out so much as survive until I can cast Rhinos and such. I think Vet and DRS are really the best ramp by far as Vet stops ground pounders from attacking and synergies with cabal super well and DRS isn't a dead draw late game like other ramp spells. While they both have the potential to just straight ramp I find lower CMC spells are much better being interactive and letting us get to the late game rather than try to accelerate to it. After all this not to say ramp is bad but that I personally would rather be playing more interactive spells.

You totally missed the point, both on what skipping on ramp detains and on the functions that ramp cards fulfill. Skipping on ramp means as much as "cut down the number of DRS they play". And the list you posted suggests otherwise, I might add.

[Ganfar]

To the Slaughter was actually primarily for Miracles and Lands, where they have a single threat to answer. It's specifically for decks with a single threat. It never comes in against any creature deck. We have better tools for small creatures.

Yes, I agree but have you ever got the oppnent to sac a planeswalker?

[mstephenson]

You totally missed the point. Skipping on ramp means as much as "cut down the number of DRS they play". And the list you posted suggests otherwise, I might add.

I will agree that the suntitan is bad and should just be a meren as it was mediocre as hell when I played it this weekend and that the sorin could stand to be something cheaper I am not really sure what though maybe just have it be the Garruk Relentless and have another card in the board.

[Echelon]

I will agree that the suntitan is bad and should just be a meren as it was mediocre as hell when I played it this weekend and that the sorin could stand to be something cheaper I am not really sure what though maybe just have it be the Garruk Relentless and have another card in the board.

How do you manage to screw up with Sun Titan..?

Wouldn't it be easier for you to just start with one of the cookiecutter lists, learn to play it well and start changing it to your liking from there..? I'm getting the idea you're missing a lot of little intricacies of the deck. Piloting this deck properly is actually more difficult than one would think. It takes an intimate knowledge of your own list and a good understanding of your various MUs.

[Zirath]

Yes, I agree but have you ever got the oppnent to sac a planeswalker?

When their only valid victim is Jace, yes. Which happened at EW.

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
Made some changes, bought a 26 ticket Atraxa and has been very useful. Currently 2-0 in games against miracles.
I am hopeful for this magical christmasland EDH deck.

[rubblekill]

http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
Made some changes, bought a 26 ticket Atraxa and has been very useful. Currently 2-0 in games against miracles.
I am hopeful for this magical christmasland EDH deck.

Interesting list. Do you board kambal only vs combo (quite rare online)?
Do you like the 2ts in the main? Me and square have been liking them so far

[Echelon]

For what MUs do you intend to bring in Kambal (other than ANT/TES/Burn)?

And why Kambal over, say, Lost Legacy?

[Neo900]

Often times I see new NicFit players who are making mistakes with there Zenith. The answer to the question " why you didn't search for xy?" is always I didn't know that I have it.
Another problem is that you have many options with much mana and as a new inexperienced player you are likely to choose the wrong option.
And of course cabal therapy needs a good knowledge about other decks around you.

[Navsi]

http://i.imgur.com/kjbAoLY.png
Made some changes, bought a 26 ticket Atraxa and has been very useful. Currently 2-0 in games against miracles.
I am hopeful for this magical christmasland EDH deck.

Looks cool. Don't you just autolose to Lands? The only interaction anywhere in the deck is Extirpate as far as I can tell, and your clock isn't exactly fast.

Do you think 4 sweeper,Vindicate and 3 Decay is better than running some copies of Swords / Path? Seems like the exile removal could be relevant (and your lategame is good enough that you aren't too worried about the Swords lifegain).

In 4-colour I liked Deathrite over the fourth Veteran / STE, just because you're naturally a little short on basic lands and it makes your topdecks a bit better / gives you maindeck interaction with graveyard strategies. A Scavenging Ooze is also hilarious with Atraxa.

The manabase I ran was similar to yours, with:
+1 Fetchland
+1 Phyrexian Tower
-1 Savannah
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Swamp

[Echelon]

@Neo: Another common mistake is misjudging whether or not they're the beatdown at any given time in a match.

[Navsi]

@Arianrhod

How'd you feel about updating the primer at some point soon? We've just had some new lists appearing with the Atraxa builds, but I think we have a pretty consistent set of options at the moment.

- BUG (Birthing Pod, Planeswalkers)
- Abzan (Rhinos, Stoneforge, Spike Combo, Enchantment)
- Jund (Sneak Attack, Punishing, Scapewish)
- 4-Color (Atraxa, Punishing Rhinos)

Anything I'm missing that might want including?

[Ricardio]

Interesting list. Do you board kambal only vs combo (quite rare online)?
Do you like the 2ts in the main? Me and square have been liking them so far

There is more combo than you give credit on mtgo, at least my luck has shown. I would always give it consideration seeing as its a very solid effect. Each noncreature cast by the opponent negates a tendrils. I am not sure it is where we need to be but I believe it deserves a shot.
the 2 ts have been good. I felt the deck was without many tools to combat decks game 1 so I threw those in.


For what MUs do you intend to bring in Kambal (other than ANT/TES/Burn)?

And why Kambal over, say, Lost Legacy?

combo and control: ideally they cantrip for the answer and then waste it which seems fine.
I think lost legacy is an atrocious card that purposely punishes you for getting cards out of your opponents hand. I would rather pay a red for a better spell that cant be force'd


Looks cool. Don't you just autolose to Lands? The only interaction anywhere in the deck is Extirpate as far as I can tell, and your clock isn't exactly fast.

Do you think 4 sweeper,Vindicate and 3 Decay is better than running some copies of Swords / Path? Seems like the exile removal could be relevant (and your lategame is good enough that you aren't too worried about the Swords lifegain).

In 4-colour I liked Deathrite over the fourth Veteran / STE, just because you're naturally a little short on basic lands and it makes your topdecks a bit better / gives you maindeck interaction with graveyard strategies. A Scavenging Ooze is also hilarious with Atraxa.

The manabase I ran was similar to yours, with:
+1 Fetchland
+1 Phyrexian Tower
-1 Savannah
-1 Tropical Island
-1 Swamp

Lands wasn't really on my radar and I may need to make some room for diverse removal.
3 deed, 1 deluge, 1 vindicate are great. 3 decays are absolutely necessary with all the blue online.
I will always play 4 vet/4 therapy.
Path is so much better than stp in nic fit. I won't argue bc it seems stupid to me and illogical.
I could see a scooze in the mix but I doubt its on par with the cards im playing in regards to power level.
I don't know how you can play 3 vet and a tower in 4color fit, seems like you didn't think that through

[Navsi]

stupid and illogical.
I don't know how you can play 3 vet and a tower in 4color fit, seems like you didn't think that through

Thank you for your polite responses.

You never actually said why you aren't playing Path, incidentally.

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.
Deathrite, on the other hand, gets stronger in 4c decks because:
- you're more likely to get wastelanded off your splash colours, which Deathrite helps against
- you probably only need your splash colour once or twice a game, so a Deathrite can be enough by itself.

[truthfulcake]

Lands wasn't really on my radar and I may need to make some room for diverse removal.
3 deed, 1 deluge, 1 vindicate are great. 3 decays are absolutely necessary with all the blue online.
I will always play 4 vet/4 therapy.
Path is so much better than stp in nic fit. I won't argue bc it seems stupid to me and illogical.
I could see a scooze in the mix but I doubt its on par with the cards im playing in regards to power level.
I don't know how you can play 3 vet and a tower in 4color fit, seems like you didn't think that through
What's the deluge for anyway? 3 deed should be enough in the way of board wipes. Throwing in some number of Paths (2 maybe?) would be an idea though. You really don't have answer to Marit Lage otherwise. I'm not sure what your board is like though. Some number of Extirpate are good, but they could be a bit slow against a quick Marit Lage, since a lands player could probably just jam it asap against you. Then again, I don't know what the online meta is like, might be almost no lands.


I beg to differ. Ramp is the first thing people tend to skip on, and often in favor of CMC >= 5 cards. That's just silly. Heck, looking at what we came up with for the SE version of the deck even my list is still a ramp slot short of the mark.

The thing is - the ramp cards we do play usually also function as removal bait, ensuring our opponent doesn't have the removal anymore when the actual threat comes down. Or rather, that's how I play out my games. Feed my opponent a DRS or 2 or whatever little crud I have, then overpower them with a Tireless Tracker (since they're now fresh out of Bolts/ADs). Advance my board state, and at some point go "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino".
I'm not saying we should skip on ramp, just that deck already has plenty as is to go off. The base core of a Nic Fit deck seems to be 4 Vet and 2 DRS, maybe a Sakura if you want, and a Tower thrown in there if your mana won't hate you for it. Between all of that (And 4x GSZ to grab an explorer if you only have half the combo. I'm not sure if it's right to zenith for an explorer on T2, but everytime I've done it it's worked out so far), that's enough to get your engine going. Anything more than that seems excessive, and I'd rather have some extra removal than extra ramp.


Thank you for your polite responses.

You never actually said why you aren't playing Path, incidentally.

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.
Deathrite, on the other hand, gets stronger in 4c decks because:
- you're more likely to get wastelanded off your splash colours, which Deathrite helps against
- you probably only need your splash colour once or twice a game, so a Deathrite can be enough by itself.
I think you're probably right with going with a 3rd DRS over a 4th Explorer but I also think you want to see an Explorer in your opening hand as often as possible, even in four color manabases. Which means running 4 to maximise your percentages. Having to zenith for one is okay, but it'd be better and faster just to have it in your hand.


I will agree that the suntitan is bad and should just be a meren as it was mediocre as hell when I played it this weekend and that the sorin could stand to be something cheaper I am not really sure what though maybe just have it be the Garruk Relentless and have another card in the board.
Sun Titan is dope, especially with the option to blow up and recur a Deed every turn. Grave Titan is often just better because it helps when you're behind a lot more, but Sun Titan is still really good.

[Navsi]

I run 5 ramp creatures and 4 zeniths base, with an additional ramp spell if I'm playing 6-drops.

I generally play more low-cmc options (Stoneforge, etc) so I can see the justification for running 7 mana guys if you're running 9 4cmc+ planeswalkers like Ricardio.

[Ricardio]

Thank you for your polite responses.

You never actually said why you aren't playing Path, incidentally.

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.
Deathrite, on the other hand, gets stronger in 4c decks because:
- you're more likely to get wastelanded off your splash colours, which Deathrite helps against
- you probably only need your splash colour once or twice a game, so a Deathrite can be enough by itself.

My apologies, I always get flustered when the path over stp debate comes up because its the same thing everytime and I feel like im stuck in groundhog day.
I can see playing a drs but im locked in pretty hard to 4 vet. I need to play my spells and vet does that. I am open to suggestions but there are a few untouchables for me atm and that's one of them.


What's the deluge for anyway? 3 deed should be enough in the way of board wipes. Throwing in some number of Paths (2 maybe?) would be an idea though. You really don't have answer to Marit Lage otherwise. I'm not sure what your board is like though. Some number of Extirpate are good, but they could be a bit slow against a quick Marit Lage, since a lands player could probably just jam it asap against you. Then again, I don't know what the online meta is like, might be almost no lands.


Deluge is 3 mana wipe which I feel like I need on occasion, same case for vindicate.
Paths are definitely on my mind now and lands is definitely a matchup I need to think about.
The meta has some lands but I should be moderately ready for most matchups.


I run 5 ramp creatures and 4 zeniths base, with an additional ramp spell if I'm playing 6-drops.

I generally play more low-cmc options (Stoneforge, etc) so I can see the justification for running 7 mana guys if you're running 9 4cmc+ planeswalkers like Ricardio.

I agree. the math on pw fit is odd but at this moment, its more along the lines of a concept. I doubt it 6-3s a 9 rounder.

[Arianrhod]

@Arianrhod

How'd you feel about updating the primer at some point soon? We've just had some new lists appearing with the Atraxa builds, but I think we have a pretty consistent set of options at the moment.

- BUG (Birthing Pod, Planeswalkers)
- Abzan (Rhinos, Stoneforge, Spike Combo, Enchantment)
- Jund (Sneak Attack, Punishing, Scapewish)
- 4-Color (Atraxa, Punishing Rhinos)

Anything I'm missing that might want including?

This is a good plan. We're also to the point where our thread is getting bulky again and needs retired / reborn.

If anyone is bored and can track down links for video feature coverage or links to particularly noteworthy finishes (say, tournaments with 50 people or more), that would be an amazing help. Writing the actual primer doesn't take me that long usually, the problem is the clerical work pulling together everything at the end.

If people have specific versions / lists for the various archetypes, now/soon would be a good time to post them. I think we're somewhere around here:

-) BUG

Pod
Planeswalkers (largely anecdotal)
Deadeye (largely anecdotal)

-) Abzan

Pod
SE Fit
Control
Rhino
Stoneforge (is this distinct enough from SE?)
Enchantment (fringe as yet, but worth noting)

-) Jund

Sneak
Scapewish (largely anecdotal, sadly)
PFire Control

-) 4c

Atraxa White (core abzan)
Atraxa Blue (core bug)
Punishing Rhinos

-) Frontiers

RUG
Reanimator
Others?

It's kind of amazing how much more work GBW has had, as a color combination, beyond BUG or Jund.

[Brael]

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.

Instead of cutting your Vets, have you considered that 4c actually wants to cut down on business spells? Giving up quantity for quality? That way you keep Vets, and you keep a basic count. It just means that the cards you're casting need to be really good.


T
-) Abzan

Pod
SE Fit
Control
Rhino
Stoneforge (is this distinct enough from SE?)
Enchantment (fringe as yet, but worth noting)


SFM builds are very different from SE build. They're trying to do some of the same things such as including mana sinks all along the curve but SFM plays fewer bodies, and less card manipulation. I think it's closer to Rhino, but instead of Siege Rhinos you're putting an equipment on something and hitting even harder.

[Navsi]

It's kind of amazing how much more work GBW has had, as a color combination, beyond BUG or Jund.

I think it's just because there are more 'build around' cards in white that work well with the deck.
Academy Rector / Starfield
Stoneforge Mystic
Siege Rhino
Sigarda

All play into the deck's strengths while providing strong game ending threats. You also get unconditional removal in Swords/Path.

The build around cards in red see just as much attention:
Sneak Attack
Scapeshift / Valakut

There's just less of them. Punishing Fire Control has trouble because of its lack of access to Swords-type unconditional removal (important for a non-tempo based control deck) and its lack of resilient finishers (although Nissa, Vital Force may be worth it now and change that).

Blue has a few build arounds / payoff cards too:
JTMS
Deadeye Navigator / other game ending bombs

Blue has the problem of, while its bombs end the game effectively, they don't have an actually fast clock (which sucks) and most of your good creatures aren't Zenith-able (which also sucks), but the blue lists tend to actually control the game pretty well.


Basically Blue can control the game but not end it, and Red can end the game quickly, but not reliably, and can't answer some things. White brings both universal answers and resilient threats, so it's the easiest place to slot in whatever supplemental cards you prefer.

Birthing Pod bypasses the 'Green creatures are just better' problem which is why it sees play in BUG and Jund builds as well as Abzan, I think?

[gth842s]

Throwing in some number of Paths (2 maybe?) would be an idea though. You really don't have answer to Marit Lage otherwise.


The base core of a Nic Fit deck seems to be 4 Vet and 2 DRS, maybe a Sakura if you want, and a Tower thrown in there if your mana won't hate you for it. Between all of that (And 4x GSZ to grab an explorer if you only have half the combo. I'm not sure if it's right to zenith for an explorer on T2, but everytime I've done it it's worked out so far), that's enough to get your engine going. Anything more than that seems excessive, and I'd rather have some extra removal than extra ramp.


I think you're probably right with going with a 3rd DRS over a 4th Explorer but I also think you want to see an Explorer in your opening hand as often as possible, even in four color manabases. Which means running 4 to maximise your percentages. Having to zenith for one is okay, but it'd be better and faster just to have it in your hand.


Sun Titan is dope, especially with the option to blow up and recur a Deed every turn. Grave Titan is often just better because it helps when you're behind a lot more, but Sun Titan is still really good.

Just a few thoughts -

1) If you're running white, I totally agree that you really should run 1-2 path or swords. It's one of the biggest attractions to the white splash.

2) I've never understood the theory between 2-3 deathrite shamans. If you have a meta full of graveyard decks then sure, go for it, but Nic Fit starts behaving like Nic Fit around 4 CMC (tireless tracker is for all intents and purposes a four-drop, rhino, meren, atraxa, etc). Your second, and especially your third DRS is taking up space better occupied by the removal that gets you to the late game, which we dominate.

3) Not running 4 explorers is silly. The core of the deck is therapy + explorer. Explorer is a great chump blocker in situations where a goyf or eldrazi are beating down, buys you time against delver or ramps you into the late game, etc. We play SDT to avoid drawing explorers as the game goes later.

4) I've recently preferred Grave Titan + Primeval Titan for my two 6-drop slots. PT fetches stronghold and tower and you've got a great recursion engine going for grindy matchups and the Grave Titan will end the game as long as your opponent doesn't play a Terminus.

[Brael]

Basically Blue can control the game but not end it, and Red can end the game quickly, but not reliably, and can't answer some things. White brings both universal answers and resilient threats, so it's the easiest place to slot in whatever supplemental cards you prefer.

Birthing Pod bypasses the 'Green creatures are just better' problem which is why it sees play in BUG and Jund builds as well as Abzan, I think?

Enter Saskia. A reliable red way to quickly end the game, while still forcing you to keep access to white for Path.

It's definitely a build I'm interested in playing with but I haven't completely figured out how to build it yet. I think it's base Jund splashing white and gives up Sigarda in favor of Nissa at 5.

It's definitely not worth more than a footnote in the 4c/frontier section at the moment, but it's among the things I really want to try out when I get a chance.

I think Pod is most popular in BUG because cards like Clique, Strix, and Glen Elendra are just obvious value to pod into, not to mention the Brainstorm allure. The white cards just don't interact as well. I actually think Pod would be a good Atraxa shell myself.

[Navsi]

Enter Saskia. A reliable red way to quickly end the game, while still forcing you to keep access to white for Path.

It's definitely a build I'm interested in playing with but I haven't completely figured out how to build it yet. I think it's base Jund splashing white and gives up Sigarda in favor of Nissa at 5.

It's definitely not worth more than a footnote in the 4c/frontier section at the moment, but it's among the things I really want to try out when I get a chance.

I think Pod is most popular in BUG because cards like Clique, Strix, and Glen Elendra are just obvious value to pod into, not to mention the Brainstorm allure. The white cards just don't interact as well. I actually think Pod would be a good Atraxa shell myself.

Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?

[Ricardio]

Just a few thoughts -

1) If you're running white, I totally agree that you really should run 1-2 path or swords. It's one of the biggest attractions to the white splash.

2) I've never understood the theory between 2-3 deathrite shamans. If you have a meta full of graveyard decks then sure, go for it, but Nic Fit starts behaving like Nic Fit around 4 CMC (tireless tracker is for all intents and purposes a four-drop, rhino, meren, atraxa, etc). Your second, and especially your third DRS is taking up space better occupied by the removal that gets you to the late game, which we dominate.

3) Not running 4 explorers is silly. The core of the deck is therapy + explorer. Explorer is a great chump blocker in situations where a goyf or eldrazi are beating down, buys you time against delver or ramps you into the late game, etc. We play SDT to avoid drawing explorers as the game goes later.

4) I've recently preferred Grave Titan + Primeval Titan for my two 6-drop slots. PT fetches stronghold and tower and you've got a great recursion engine going for grindy matchups and the Grave Titan will end the game as long as your opponent doesn't play a Terminus.

PREACH! AGREED on all fronts.


Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?

so saskia gives your creatures bad double strike. All of atraxa text is relevant. I got to add a 4th counter to a vial, that was hilarious.
Kaya is insane. I would argue that she is on power with Nissa VF or possibly stronger.
Ulted tamiyo against miracles, talk about sandbox fun haha

[Brael]

Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?

Considering combo is where we're weakest, yes. Just compare the clocks, ignoring mana complications for a moment. Lets say you're playing a deck of 4x Seige Rhino. If you double Rhino you hit for 6 on a drain, 4 on turn 1, 8 on turn 2 for 18 total.

But lets say you were running a 3-1 split on Rhino/Saskia and you get to play both. On T1 you hit for 3 on the drain and 4 on the Rhino. Saskia enters and you hit for 14 doing 21 total. And on top of that, thanks to the vigilance you still have a blocker.

Saskia hits hard and fast while still allowing blocks in most circumstances. Thanks to haste you can play around Karakas too, merely the threat of Saskia shorts your opponent a mana.


so saskia gives your creatures bad double strike. All of atraxa text is relevant.

It's better than bad. Just Saskia alone comes in hasted, hits the Miracles player for 3, then redirects another 3 to JTMS. And that's assuming you had nothing else on the board.

[Jain_Mor]

Haven't seen it mentioned yet but for those that care,

Sneak Fit was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-columbus-legacy-challenge-european-tournaments-and-an-interview-with-jonathan-orr

And that Rhino Atraxa list was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-bom-super-finals-kmc-events-and-scg-legacy-classic-knoxville

@Ricardio and Rubble, how is the online metagame doing? Has D&T started appearing more yet? Has miracles subsided at all? I've stopped playing entirely now (queue sad violins) overwatch is more convinient and fun..

[Ricardio]

It's better than bad. Just Saskia alone comes in hasted, hits the Miracles player for 3, then redirects another 3 to JTMS. And that's assuming you had nothing else on the board.

We are assuming: we have the mana, it resolves, they don't kill it, they have a jtms and santa brings us what we want. 4 cmc haste vigilant 3/4 legend that gives pseudo double strike is not what im in the market for. I have had saskia played against me twice and neither time did I feel at all threatened by it. forgive my inherent negativity.


@Ricardio and Rubble, how is the online metagame doing? Has D&T started appearing more yet? Has miracles subsided at all? I've stopped playing entirely now (queue sad violins) overwatch is more convinient and fun..

As the cards get better distributed and prices go down, im sure d&t will rise but its slow going atm and most of the decks are miracles or ant.
I don't blame you, this is my downtime before LoL season starts.

[rubblekill]

Online players like their miracles, delvers and eldrazi. Ant is still present but much rarer..I assume storm players don't appreciate a format that revolves around either counterbalance or chalice of the void.
Due to irl stuff I have just been toying around with brews, nothing serious

E: It is admittedly very, very fun stomping blue control decks with sneak fit, the online meta is a blue orgy after all. Cherson yesterday spectated a match I was playing and can confirm the satisfaction.
Nothing better than dropping lines like "Today we'll have pasta for dinner, and when I say pasta I mean spaghetti" while empath-->sneaking in Emrakul against some islands and a Jace. I'm Italian after all..

[truthfulcake]

Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?
I think Saskia works really well in a Junk Fit shell more than a Jund/PFire shell. You throw down all of your usual threats, and then when you've got a rhino or two on the field zenith out Saskia and kill them. Alternatively, you could try fitting one into a Sneak n Fit list (Since that runs a lot of fatties), but that deck already runs Emrakul and hitting your opponent for 30 is kinda the definition of win more.

There might be a nice brew of Sneak n Fit crossed with Junk Fit, idk. At this point, I think Atraxa is the stronger of the two cards with her keyword salad of abilities (Proliferate is gravy really), she doesn't really need a build around effect. Saskia is still very strong, but requires the right shell I think and the right moment to bring her out (Higher ceiling vs higher floor is kinda my point, I got a bit sidetracked).


Just a few thoughts -

1) If you're running white, I totally agree that you really should run 1-2 path or swords. It's one of the biggest attractions to the white splash.

2) I've never understood the theory between 2-3 deathrite shamans. If you have a meta full of graveyard decks then sure, go for it, but Nic Fit starts behaving like Nic Fit around 4 CMC (tireless tracker is for all intents and purposes a four-drop, rhino, meren, atraxa, etc). Your second, and especially your third DRS is taking up space better occupied by the removal that gets you to the late game, which we dominate.

3) Not running 4 explorers is silly. The core of the deck is therapy + explorer. Explorer is a great chump blocker in situations where a goyf or eldrazi are beating down, buys you time against delver or ramps you into the late game, etc. We play SDT to avoid drawing explorers as the game goes later.

4) I've recently preferred Grave Titan + Primeval Titan for my two 6-drop slots. PT fetches stronghold and tower and you've got a great recursion engine going for grindy matchups and the Grave Titan will end the game as long as your opponent doesn't play a Terminus.
1- I mean, the other reason to run white is Vindicate, ... but almost any issue you have that Vindicate could solve Path/Swords could, so my point is rather moot.

2- I think 2 is the right number, especially with a 22 land deck. It's convenient ramp, a fine topdeck and gives you some more ground against graveyard decks game 1. 3 is definitely too many though.

3- Preach, but Navsi isn't wrong either. Getting stuck into a mindset of 'This is the core, I can't ever change it' is bad for deck building.

4- Grave Titan and Prime Time are very good, but Prime Time is actually one of the weaker titans for what Nic Fit wants. Which is annoying, because it's the only one you can zenith for. Prime Time doesn't help you when you're behind and doesn't generate much value beyond ramping you or recurring itself with Tower + Stronghold. Grave Titan immediately stabilises, Inferno Titan is anywhere between a straight 2-for-1 to a 4-for-1 (I snuck one in today that ate two delvers and a V Clique just off his bolt abilities), and Sun Titan recurs either a Deed or something else with value written all over it, which can help when you're behind.

[gth842s]

1- I mean, the other reason to run white is Vindicate, ... but almost any issue you have that Vindicate could solve Path/Swords could, so my point is rather moot.

2- I think 2 is the right number, especially with a 22 land deck. It's convenient ramp, a fine topdeck and gives you some more ground against graveyard decks game 1. 3 is definitely too many though.

3- Preach, but Navsi isn't wrong either. Getting stuck into a mindset of 'This is the core, I can't ever change it' is bad for deck building.

4- Grave Titan and Prime Time are very good, but Prime Time is actually one of the weaker titans for what Nic Fit wants. Which is annoying, because it's the only one you can zenith for. Prime Time doesn't help you when you're behind and doesn't generate much value beyond ramping you or recurring itself with Tower + Stronghold. Grave Titan immediately stabilises, Inferno Titan is anywhere between a straight 2-for-1 to a 4-for-1 (I snuck one in today that ate two delvers and a V Clique just off his bolt abilities), and Sun Titan recurs either a Deed or something else with value written all over it, which can help when you're behind.

2 DRS seems OK - that's kind of in the wheelhouse of personal preference and is also going to vary based on 3 or 4 colors, etc.

We should absolutely question everything, but I just don't personally think that <4 Veteran Explorers is where we want to be. I think most of the results we've seen in tournaments would support that opinion. A deck that runs less than 4 explorers is making therapy worse and can't support the 4+ drops in the curve nearly as reliably. If the goal is lowering the curve to the point that everything is CMC 3 or less, then Maverick is a hell of a deck and it plays that game better than Nic Fit does.

I don't disagree that Sun Titan is a good card, but most of us are running eternal witness and Nissa for recursion lower on the curve. The fact that we can GSZ for Primeval Titan is a feature of the card and has to be included in our assessment of its value. This is just my opinion and I think is probably the most up for discussion or personal preference, but the Titans in order of power are: Grave, Inferno, Primeval, Sun, Frost. I don't know what matchup I'm running Sun Titan for, if that makes sense, and I have to stumble into him via top or a natural draw. For shardless I'll bring in Meren and I'll want to get the Tower + Stronghold engine going. For Miracles I'd personally prefer to GSZ where X=7, they can't counterbalance it, and then go get the tower + stronghold engine. And Grave Titan will just end the game, if you leave him in. Just my $.02, though!

[Brael]

I think Saskia works really well in a Junk Fit shell more than a Jund/PFire shell. You throw down all of your usual threats, and then when you've got a rhino or two on the field zenith out Saskia and kill them. Alternatively, you could try fitting one into a Sneak n Fit list (Since that runs a lot of fatties), but that deck already runs Emrakul and hitting your opponent for 30 is kinda the definition of win more.

I've been thinking about how to include it in my typical builds. As you play smaller creatures it gets better, with the exception of trample damage. Trample could mean that my earlier example of just running 3/1 Rhino/Saskia is the optimal way to play the card.

I don't think it's very good in a Sneak build, but in the sorts of things I've been running for months now, it seems ok. I definitely like the cards raw power level, but as always, I remain skeptical of 4 colors, I think 4 colors tends to spread a deck too thin. Brainstorming for the past couple hours has brought me to this:

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Saskia the Unyielding

Non Creatures 21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Nissa, Vital Force

The mana strikes me as being pretty bad though, I'm trying to jam too much into it between Arbor, Caverns, Stronghold, and Groves. I'm not too happy with the way the deck looks.

[removedfromgame]

If anyone is bored and can track down links for video feature coverage or links to particularly noteworthy finishes (say, tournaments with 50 people or more), that would be an amazing help.


I've been searching but I can't find anything relevant. Does anyone know of any? I would love to see others pilot the deck and gain some perspective.

[Brael]

I've been searching but I can't find anything relevant. Does anyone know of any? I would love to see others pilot the deck and gain some perspective.

The deck just doesn't have a big following. No major tournament will feature a match with the deck, so you're mostly reliant on random streamers and for the most part they don't like it much. That makes it tough to find big events with the deck. It has a reputation as a casual rather than competitive archetype.

[gth842s]

I've been searching but I can't find anything relevant. Does anyone know of any? I would love to see others pilot the deck and gain some perspective.

There are 2-4 Nic Fit players in my local meta. Weeklies get between 20 and 50 players, and the local shop runs monthly legacy preservation series (1k) tournaments. If you look up CardKingdom on twitch, there's a decent amount of coverage of Nic Fit but it definitely needs to be sifted through to find the games (they upload entire tournaments as one video file to twitch). If you look at the last preservation series, I believe BUG Fit beat Storm on camera.

[Jain_Mor]

@Ricardo, yup :/

@Rubble, XD

[kalvin66rocks]

From this week's (11/21) Legacy stream we got to see junk nic-fit, which I believe was a rhino fit list.

Twitch clip from this week with the beginning of the game.

https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/102600166?t=55m06s

Also, if anyone is interested, I may buy into the deck on MTGO and try to stream it in late December.

[Blastoderm]

Seeing lots of planeswalker builds lately... but why no love for Garruk, Primal Hunter? This guy crushes Miracles, no?

[kalvin66rocks]

He is good at crushing miracles, however I have been really like the versatility of Nissa, Vital Force lately. Having the ability to animate a land or get back a permanent seems pretty relevant plus being able to emblem after 2 turns and still have it around seems very strong.

From playing miracles, almost any planeswalker that is is going to incrementally make tokens that isn't going to be cleanly answered by a terminus or single removal spell is something that is scary to see across the table.

@Blastoderm is there any reason that you like Garruk, Primal Hunter over Garruk Relentless or Nissa, Vital Force against miracles?

[Neo900]

Garruk Primal Hunter seems okay. I love Chandra Flamecaller (Jund list). Their Elementals doing so much damage and after combat they are sacrified in the phyrexian tower. Also she is mass removal and draws cards. Discarding multiple senseis divining top and draw new cards+1 is so many times great and I have often the feeling that I need more and more draw. Right know I play 2 Painful truths. Maybe I should go up to 3.

[Echelon]

I think lost legacy is an atrocious card that purposely punishes you for getting cards out of your opponents hand. I would rather pay a red for a better spell that cant be force'd

Why care that your opponent might draw cards when you just stripped them of their win conditions..? What're they going to do, Brainstorm and Dark Ritual you to death? Crack a LED in your face? Besides, since you're targeting 4-offs (at best) it's more likely they not have it hand than that they do.


The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.

So your worst case scenario here is that you end up with all the mana you need..? Yes, that is horrible. Sheesh, even in the lategame it's still a shuffle effect for your Top or a Fog vs. an opposing creature. It's never completely useless.


Nothing better than dropping lines like "Today we'll have pasta for dinner, and when I say pasta I mean spaghetti" while empath-->sneaking in Emrakul against some islands and a Jace.

That, my good sir, is beyond epic!


1- I mean, the other reason to run white is Vindicate, ... but almost any issue you have that Vindicate could solve Path/Swords could, so my point is rather moot.

Yet people are hard set on running Abrupt Decays. I agree with you fully, but this does make me lol a bit. Another reason to run white is the SB options, by the way.

[Brael]

Seeing lots of planeswalker builds lately... but why no love for Garruk, Primal Hunter? This guy crushes Miracles, no?

People like their PW's, it hasn't seen much success for awhile, but it is fun and we got some good ones recently.

[Ricardio]

@echelon: no, but against ant, naming tendrils doesn't win you the game. They can still empty goblins directly into your anus till you die of goblins in ass itis.

@brael: in the miracles and delver saturated sespool that is mtgo meta, planeswalkers seem strong. Atraxa has been an absolute house. GsZ baneslayer with vigilance and death touch.

[Echelon]

@echelon: no, but against ant, naming tendrils doesn't win you the game. They can still empty goblins directly into your anus till you die of goblins in ass itis.

Yes, but our ass still has a way of getting out of that. A little bit of that good old Golgari Charm or a somewhat Pernicious Deed makes your ass goblin free in no time.

Seriously though, Lost Legacy still doesn't get you home free, sure, but at least you don't die on the spot. And in the meantime you still have your discard/hatebears/Surgicals to mess with their plan.

I just took a peek at my SB - turns out I board in 13(!) cards vs. ANT/TES.

On a sidenote - I'm seriously considering running an Atraxa in my Junk list, without any U lands. I mean, GSZ'able flying Batterskull, dammit.

[rubblekill]

On ll I agree with Echelon, for one time. The card is absurd against storm and even miracles. It is 3cmc so pseudo counterbalance proof and if they spend their resources to counter it I'm fine: 1 because I play 3 ll, 2 because it means I am more likely to resolve one of my 2-3 (!!!) tsunami. Being 3cmc instead of 4 is a very big deal.

Ricardio do you like PW in the meta? I hated them, but maybe your brute force approach to PW fit (8 PW?) is the key in our different opinions on the matter.

[emuhell]

On a sidenote - I'm seriously considering running an Atraxa in my Junk list, without any U lands. I mean, GSZ'able flying Batterskull, dammit.

Thought about that too, and my conclusion was: Yes, but no - awful draws are awful.
Put in a single Tropical Island in your landbase so you have the chance to cast it if need be.

[Echelon]

Yeah... I'm not buying a Tropical Island so I can try out some silly commander card. I rather just spend my 6 bucks on the Atraxa and YOLO it from there. I'm perfectly comfortable having cards in my deck I can't cast otherwise. I blame it on having played Elves!/Manaless Dredge/Summoner's Egg.

Besides, I can always use DRS to cast it or regrow it from my GY w/ Meren.

[Blastoderm]

He is good at crushing miracles, however I have been really like the versatility of Nissa, Vital Force lately. Having the ability to animate a land or get back a permanent seems pretty relevant plus being able to emblem after 2 turns and still have it around seems very strong.

From playing miracles, almost any planeswalker that is is going to incrementally make tokens that isn't going to be cleanly answered by a terminus or single removal spell is something that is scary to see across the table.

@Blastoderm is there any reason that you like Garruk, Primal Hunter over Garruk Relentless or Nissa, Vital Force against miracles?

I mainly like his draw ability. He protects himself with 3/3s and can draw an insane amount of cards.

[Echelon]

I mainly like his draw ability. He protects himself with 3/3s and can draw an insane amount of cards.

That GGG though...

[kalvin66rocks]

GGG definitely seems like it could be a slightly prohibitive cost.



Going to 2k this Saturday. This is the list I I'm planning on taking, however I am open to suggestions.

Creatures:
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Grave Titan

Instants/Sorceries:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
1 Vindicate
3 Abrupt Decay

Enchantments:
3 Pernicious Deed

Artifacts:
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Planeswalkers:
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Lands:
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers

The only serious change i'm considering now is removing the second Qasali Pridemage from the sideboard, I'm not sure what it would be for however. Otherwise through the testing, the deck has seemed to hold up pretty well and it is a blast to play.

I think once I get a trop, I am going to tweak the manabase a little bit to run Leovold and Atraxa since they both seem great.

[cherson]

I play a similar list and I like it a lot.
concerning your sideboard, I definitely recommend 2 thoughtseize in the sb. it is very important against every combo deck.

[Brael]

@brael: in the miracles and delver saturated sespool that is mtgo meta, planeswalkers seem strong. Atraxa has been an absolute house. GsZ baneslayer with vigilance and death touch.

PW's supported by creatures seem strong to me in any meta. Few seem strong to me on their own though. I was looking at that David McDarby list from a few years ago and wondering if we can do something like that in Junk these days. Oath of Nissa is great for that archetype and depending on what you're looking for Oath of Gideon and Oath of Liliana both seem strong as well. There's no shortage of good PW's in those colors.

The library manipulation and support are all there but removal seems tricky.


On a sidenote - I'm seriously considering running an Atraxa in my Junk list, without any U lands. I mean, GSZ'able flying Batterskull, dammit.

This could be a good approach to take with the 4C stuff. I might try that with Saskia, technically I have 2 red lands for her with Caverns and I can tutor with KotR, plus there's DRS. But normally you would just want to GSZ. You may have solved it.

[removedfromgame]

Yeah... I'm not buying a Tropical Island so I can try out some silly commander card. I rather just spend my 6 bucks on the Atraxa and YOLO it from there. I'm perfectly comfortable having cards in my deck I can't cast otherwise. I blame it on having played Elves!/Manaless Dredge/Summoner's Egg.

Besides, I can always use DRS to cast it or regrow it from my GY w/ Meren.

would it be that embarrassing to run a breeding pool or a watery grave? The lifeloss becomes so marginal if you're getting it back with lifelike, or rhinos or thragtusk.

[Echelon]

would it be that embarrassing to run a breeding pool or a watery grave? The lifeloss becomes so marginal if you're getting it back with lifelike, or rhinos or thragtusk.

Since when is that something to be ashamed about? And who in their right mind gives a fuck about what others think of their deck, in that regard? I used to run shockduals while dropping Summoner's Eggs as a serious attempt at Legacy and I loved it. But in this case I also don't want to expand my manabase/drop my Dryad Arbor to facilitate it.

[Brael]

would it be that embarrassing to run a breeding pool or a watery grave? The lifeloss becomes so marginal if you're getting it back with lifelike, or rhinos or thragtusk.

One shockland is pretty doable I've found but it's still far from ideal.

[Echelon]

One shockland is pretty doable I've found but it's still far from ideal.

A lot of fetchlands allow you to circumvent them just fine. I used to run 3 shockduals w/o the lifegain and it never hurt me much. Just be smart about it.

[Brael]

A lot of fetchlands allow you to circumvent them just fine. I used to run 3 shockduals w/o the lifegain and it never hurt me much. Just be smart about it.

It depends on your curve. I play a lot of Modern so I'm used to the timing in that format. A blend of ABU's/Shocks makes for interesting timing, but if you're playing something like Rhinos where you don't usually curve out every turn anyways, it's easy to do. Just think of it coming in tapped as paying 1 extra mana. Which I'll also point out if you're paying 1 mana... Ash Barrens is pretty badass, probably harder to use in 4C though.

[kalvin66rocks]

I play a similar list and I like it a lot.
concerning your sideboard, I definitely recommend 2 thoughtseize in the sb. it is very important against every combo deck.

I think I might take out that Qasali Pridemage for a Thoughtseize. I'm not sure what to cut for the second Thoughtseize.

But I do like having more hand disruption as well as the surgical extraction's and lost legacy's against combo.


I have no shame in running a shockland. There are times whenever it really hurts but only one, especially if its only for a splash is definitely doable.

[zyren]

I want to experiment with maximizing atraxa's proliferate. With certain inclusions, we can use cards that have appeared in other lists and still gain quite a few more cards that will synergize with her. For instance, cards like nissa, voice of zendikar have appeared in a few lists and work pretty well with atraxa. I also want to experiment with master biomancer to see how well he does. He works very well with planeswalkers that make tokens like nissa, voice of zendikar and sorin.


biomancer: tokens generated by planeswalkers get buffed. meren bringing back guys get buffed. nissa, gearhulk, and abzan charm can buff up biomancer.

gearhulk: this guy is insane if atraxa is on the board, and great by himself too. throw 3 counters on atraxa 1 on him and let them grow.

abzan charm: very versatile. the +1/+1 counters actually become worthy of being used if atraxa and another creature is out.

atraxa: as you guys know, synergizes with planeswalkers, meren's experience counters, jitte counters, and all the +1/+1 counters generated by nissa, biomancer, charm, gearhulk, and scooze.

Even though a lot of the synergies are small, there are so many of them that they add up. I'm considering going all in one token generating planeswalkers like garruk, primal hunter and elspeth, sun's champion.


Creatures
3 veteran explorer
2 deathrite shaman
1 scavenging ooze
1 stoneforge mystic
1 eternal witness
1 leovold, emessary of trest
1 master biomancer
1 meren, clan of nel toth
1 atraxa, praetor's voice
1 verdurous gearhulk

Planeswalkers
1 nissa, voice of zendikar
1 sorin, lord of innistrad
1 nissa, vital force
1 sorin, grim nemesis

Artifacts
3 sensei's divining top
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

Enchantments
3 Pernicious deed

Spells
4 Cabal therapy
4 Green suns zenith
3 abrupt decay
1 abzan charm
2 Path to exile

Lands
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1 underground sea
1 tropical island
2 forest
2 swamp
1 island
1 plains
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower

[TTX]

Serrated Arrows plus Atraxa? Haha
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Echelon]

@zyren: So basically your entire deck falls apart as soon as your opponent manages to get rid of a 1-off..? And whilst making the curve more top heavy than regular lists you decide to shave a Veteran Explorer..?

Sure, what could possibly go wrong.

Again - Proliferate is flavour text, nothing more. The reason why you should care about Atraxa is b/c it's a GSZ'able, flying Batterskull, nothing more. If your plan is to run it so you can improve your Miracles MU since it plays well with PWs, guess what - that isn't going to work b/c it plays right into StP/Terminus. Congrats.

[cherson]

I think I might take out that Qasali Pridemage for a Thoughtseize. I'm not sure what to cut for the second Thoughtseize.

But I do like having more hand disruption as well as the surgical extraction's and lost legacy's against combo.


I have no shame in running a shockland. There are times whenever it really hurts but only one, especially if its only for a splash is definitely doable.

do u really think u need krosan grip? just to kill top against miracles?
for me tsunami is a very good sideboard card against all the blue decks. beat miracles yesterday and ur delver.
they have no answer if u kill their lands.

I have kambal as well but never played him so far, is he really that good in combo match ups? you can't tutor him which seems is a big disadvantage.

in my opinion:
- krosan
- kambal
+ tsunami
+ thoughtseize

[MDHackbert]

I just bought into Sneak Fit on MTGO. My plan is to run through some leagues and record them over the next month for the YouTubes. I will link here as I finish the playlists. The first set will likely be me going over the replay until i get comfortable recording. Hopefully, I can provide something useful to link in the future Primer. :smile:

List:
Main - 61
Lands - 22
2 - Forest
2 - Mountain
2 - Swamp
2 - Bayou
2 - Badlands
1 - Taiga
3 - Wooded Foothills
4 - Verdant Catacombs
2 - Grove of the Burnwillows
1 - Phyrexian Tower
1 - Volrath's Stronghold

Ramp - 7
2 - Deathrite Shaman
4 - Veteran Explorer
1 - Sakura-Tribe Elder

Utility - 4
1 - Eternal Witness
2 - Fierce Empath
1 - Reclamation Sage
1 - Thragtusk

Combo - 4
2 - Woodland Bellower
1 - Inferno Titan
1 - Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Other Spells - 23
4 - Sneak Attack
4 - Cabal Therapy
4 - Green Sun's Zenith
3 - Sensei's Divining Top
2 - Abrupt Decay
3 - Pernicious Deed
1 - Maelstrom Pulse
2 - Punishing Fire

Sideboard - 15
1 - Primeval Titan
2 - Carpet of Flowers
1 - Pithing Needle
2 - Thoughtseize
2 - Surgical Extraction
1 - Massacre
1 - Gaze of Granite
2 - Slaughter Games
1 - To the Slaughter
2 - Golgari Charm

[emaugust]

I'm getting the idea you're missing a lot of little intricacies of the deck. Piloting this deck properly is actually more difficult than one would think. It takes an intimate knowledge of your own list and a good understanding of your various MUs.

Are there more interactions that people could explain and then could be added to the main page? I am new to legacy and this is the deck I am having a lot of fun playing. I started with JUNK fit but am playing an earlier iteration of Navsi's sneak list and really love it. I picked up magic last spring so I have a lot to learn but even played sub-optimally, this list seems to have a ton of power.

So anyhow, an example of interactions I am ignorant of: I hear people here talk about how broke the Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower combination is... but no one ever really describes what those broken things are. I can see how recurring Veteran Explorer would be great... but what else?

Thank you everyone for working on this deck and "showing your work", I always feel like I learn a lot when I visit this thread.

[MDHackbert]

I am going to re-record my deck tech vid for the Sneak list above. What would be a good flow for the DT?
- Reason for variant choice
- categories of cards
- etc.

[kalvin66rocks]

do u really think u need krosan grip? just to kill top against miracles?
for me tsunami is a very good sideboard card against all the blue decks. beat miracles yesterday and ur delver.
they have no answer if u kill their lands.

I have kambal as well but never played him so far, is he really that good in combo match ups? you can't tutor him which seems is a big disadvantage.

in my opinion:
- krosan
- kambal
+ tsunami
+ thoughtseize
I agree with that. I swapped out the Krosan Grip for the Tsunami and it seems much better in that matchup.

I have really been looking Kambal, also I can't find my canonists right now so he will have to do.

Also of note, I can't find my Guess, the Traitor so unless the shop I'm going to has one I won't be including that today.

My current sideboard:
1 Tsunami
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Lost Legacy
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Carpet of Flowers

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Arianrhod]

I am going to re-record my deck tech vid for the Sneak list above. What would be a good flow for the DT?
- Reason for variant choice
- categories of cards
- etc.

Should probably at least mention other card choices that you opted out of (Primeval Titan being the biggest one, I'd say).

[rubblekill]

Should probably at least mention other card choices that you opted out of (Primeval Titan being the biggest one, I'd say).

I have a question for you. In a meta (MTGO) where, apart from a massive miracles presence, every deck is a very fast deck (burn reanimator delver eldrazi, sometimes storm), would it be suboptimal to put prime time in the sideboard? Because to me it seemed a slow and grindy card (although amazing vs cancer.dec), and thus he got relegated in the sb.

[square_two]

I just bought into Sneak Fit on MTGO. My plan is to run through some leagues and record them over the next month for the YouTubes. I will link here as I finish the playlists. The first set will likely be me going over the replay until i get comfortable recording. Hopefully, I can provide something useful to link in the future Primer. :smile:


Good luck!

I haven't had the best time online, still under 50% match win myself. Sometimes it feels like there is a lot of miracles and combo, but then I'll reflect on my actual past few matches and recall a Vial Goblins match followed by Grixis...had a frustrating miracles loss last week due to me completely forgetting that I had E Wit as a GSZ target. It happens.

I've also considered streaming and may try to start up sometime after the holidays.

[Arianrhod]

I have a question for you. In a meta (MTGO) where, apart from a massive miracles presence, every deck is a very fast deck (burn reanimator delver eldrazi, sometimes storm), would it be suboptimal to put prime time in the sideboard? Because to me it seemed a slow and grindy card (although amazing vs cancer.dec), and thus he got relegated in the sb.

So, here's my problem with this. Miracles is a couple of things:

-) Major meta share
-) Played by many good players (meaning if you want to do well in an event, you need to expect to play vs it at the top tables)
-) Grindy, long matches even for Sneak

These things mean that, assuming we want to do well in an event, we should build with Miracles firmly in mind. Now, as you've mentioned, there is a dichotomy between Miracles and much of the rest of the format -- you'll run into Jund, Shardless, etc now and then, sure, but generally speaking the format is Miracles (slow) vs everything else (fast), in a strictly speed sense. One of the best ways to beat Miracles is to preboard for them. If you can secure game 1, you're usually looking at, at worst, a draw on the round. It is very hard for them to fight through us in general (as, to be fair, it is for us to fight through them) -- especially if you have adequate answers to Jace TMS, which is one reason I favor the 2x To the Slaughter in the board over other options like Diabolic Edict or Pithing Needle (Needle is too easily Counterbalanced, Wear//Teared, Council's Judgmented, etc). Kill the fucker and be done with it. Anyway, both decks have trouble fighting through the other, which means games take a while. Fast wins /can/ happen on either side, but it's unlikely. If we win game 1 in 20 minutes (which is actually a bit fast for the matchup), then that means Miracles has to win two games in 15 minutes each, including shuffling, sideboarding, etc.

This makes playing for game 1 as best we can a viable strategy, however, we don't want to go overboard on it. Our sideboard for Miracles is extensive just because of the raw number of bad cards we have vs them (4 Vet 4 Therapy). If we run too many "anti miracles" cards maindeck, we unbalance the deck vs the faster rest of the metagame because we STILL need to have those 8 cards in the board for Miracles no matter what else we do. This means we need to run 2-3 cards that synergize with the deck's gameplan, that aren't actively bad in most situations, and that are the best of the best at what they do.

Primeval Titan is the best for this, by far. At worst, Primeval's failcase is that he is a 6/6 trample who can't be Abrupt Decayed, who gives you +2 virtual card advantage by pulling two lands from your deck. Even if he never manages to swing, he's still a flat +2. At his best, he gets to assemble Two Towers on comes-into-play and then swing afterward, which gives you +4 vca and an engine. Primeval is Zenithable (x=6 means cmc=7, immune to counterbalance), plays well with recursion (in a long game he turns your deck into straight gas), and powers up Emrakul (gets you closer to hardcast, which almost certainly WILL kill Miracles). He's also a card draw engine with Nissa, who we've started to move maindeck as the other primary preboard card.

This comes at the cost of 1 deck slot. He has all of these synergies, with 1 slot. The number of single, solitary cards that have that high of a % impact on a given matchup is very, very low, and I think that Primeval is very important to Sneak because of that. Yeah, he's kinda junky in most other matchups, and he's going to get sideboarded out a lot. But when you need him, you really need him, and if you intend on doing well in tournaments, you have to prepare for and assume that you will need him.

Hope that helps.

[rubblekill]

So, here's my problem with this. Miracles is a couple of things:

-) Major meta share
-) Played by many good players (meaning if you want to do well in an event, you need to expect to play vs it at the top tables)
-) Grindy, long matches even for Sneak

These things mean that, assuming we want to do well in an event, we should build with Miracles firmly in mind. Now, as you've mentioned, there is a dichotomy between Miracles and much of the rest of the format -- you'll run into Jund, Shardless, etc now and then, sure, but generally speaking the format is Miracles (slow) vs everything else (fast), in a strictly speed sense. One of the best ways to beat Miracles is to preboard for them. If you can secure game 1, you're usually looking at, at worst, a draw on the round. It is very hard for them to fight through us in general (as, to be fair, it is for us to fight through them) -- especially if you have adequate answers to Jace TMS, which is one reason I favor the 2x To the Slaughter in the board over other options like Diabolic Edict or Pithing Needle (Needle is too easily Counterbalanced, Wear//Teared, Council's Judgmented, etc). Kill the fucker and be done with it. Anyway, both decks have trouble fighting through the other, which means games take a while. Fast wins /can/ happen on either side, but it's unlikely. If we win game 1 in 20 minutes (which is actually a bit fast for the matchup), then that means Miracles has to win two games in 15 minutes each, including shuffling, sideboarding, etc.

This makes playing for game 1 as best we can a viable strategy, however, we don't want to go overboard on it. Our sideboard for Miracles is extensive just because of the raw number of bad cards we have vs them (4 Vet 4 Therapy). If we run too many "anti miracles" cards maindeck, we unbalance the deck vs the faster rest of the metagame because we STILL need to have those 8 cards in the board for Miracles no matter what else we do. This means we need to run 2-3 cards that synergize with the deck's gameplan, that aren't actively bad in most situations, and that are the best of the best at what they do.

Primeval Titan is the best for this, by far. At worst, Primeval's failcase is that he is a 6/6 trample who can't be Abrupt Decayed, who gives you +2 virtual card advantage by pulling two lands from your deck. Even if he never manages to swing, he's still a flat +2. At his best, he gets to assemble Two Towers on comes-into-play and then swing afterward, which gives you +4 vca and an engine. Primeval is Zenithable (x=6 means cmc=7, immune to counterbalance), plays well with recursion (in a long game he turns your deck into straight gas), and powers up Emrakul (gets you closer to hardcast, which almost certainly WILL kill Miracles). He's also a card draw engine with Nissa, who we've started to move maindeck as the other primary preboard card.

This comes at the cost of 1 deck slot. He has all of these synergies, with 1 slot. The number of single, solitary cards that have that high of a % impact on a given matchup is very, very low, and I think that Primeval is very important to Sneak because of that. Yeah, he's kinda junky in most other matchups, and he's going to get sideboarded out a lot. But when you need him, you really need him, and if you intend on doing well in tournaments, you have to prepare for and assume that you will need him.

Hope that helps.

Well, thank you very much for using your time to answer to my question in this polite and in depth manner.

[Brael]

Been seeing a lot of praise for Nissa, Vital Force over the past 20 pages or so. I haven't actually picked one up to play yet though.

Lets say you only have room for a single 5 drop. Is Nissa good enough to replace Sigarda? They seem similar to me. Both hit hard, both cost 5, both are difficult to deal with. Ignoring any color issues, if you could only pick one 5 drop, which would it be?

[square_two]

Been seeing a lot of praise for Nissa, Vital Force over the past 20 pages or so. I haven't actually picked one up to play yet though.

Lets say you only have room for a single 5 drop. Is Nissa good enough to replace Sigarda? They seem similar to me. Both hit hard, both cost 5, both are difficult to deal with. Ignoring any color issues, if you could only pick one 5 drop, which would it be?

I'm going to go out and say that Nissa is better than Sigarda if you can only fit in one. Nissa so far to me feels good to great (mainly great) in every single matchup. Against combo it is 5 more damage thanks to the hasty forest. Against decks where you need a second Deed to save yourself and clench a game, she grabs it back for you from the grave. Same applies to any deck where you might need a vital hate permanent. Miracles may be the case where either is great - although I still think I'd rather have Nissa in hand to either kill Jace with a hasty forest, or just out draw them for the rest of the game. Nissa either gets quick damage in, or allows you to gain a lot of advantage in a longer game.

[Brael]

I'm going to go out and say that Nissa is better than Sigarda if you can only fit in one. Nissa so far to me feels good to great (mainly great) in every single matchup. Against combo it is 5 more damage thanks to the hasty forest. Against decks where you need a second Deed to save yourself and clench a game, she grabs it back for you from the grave. Same applies to any deck where you might need a vital hate permanent. Miracles may be the case where either is great - although I still think I'd rather have Nissa in hand to either kill Jace with a hasty forest, or just out draw them for the rest of the game. Nissa either gets quick damage in, or allows you to gain a lot of advantage in a longer game.

This is kind of what I was thinking. I could replace Sigarda with Nissa, and then replace Meren with Thrun for a similar card that's hard to interact with.

[volrathxp]

Haven't seen it mentioned yet but for those that care,

Sneak Fit was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-columbus-legacy-challenge-european-tournaments-and-an-interview-with-jonathan-orr

And that Rhino Atraxa list was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-bom-super-finals-kmc-events-and-scg-legacy-classic-knoxville

@Ricardio and Rubble, how is the online metagame doing? Has D&T started appearing more yet? Has miracles subsided at all? I've stopped playing entirely now (queue sad violins) overwatch is more convinient and fun..

The Sneak List was mine, from my report for the Classic.

Haven't posted in a bit, still rocking the Sneak Fit. It's too much fun. I actually just started a subreddit devoted to Nic Fit discussion not too long ago. http://www.reddit.com/r/nicfitmtg

:)

[volrathxp]

So, here's my problem with this. Miracles is a couple of things:

-) Major meta share
-) Played by many good players (meaning if you want to do well in an event, you need to expect to play vs it at the top tables)
-) Grindy, long matches even for Sneak

These things mean that, assuming we want to do well in an event, we should build with Miracles firmly in mind. Now, as you've mentioned, there is a dichotomy between Miracles and much of the rest of the format -- you'll run into Jund, Shardless, etc now and then, sure, but generally speaking the format is Miracles (slow) vs everything else (fast), in a strictly speed sense. One of the best ways to beat Miracles is to preboard for them. If you can secure game 1, you're usually looking at, at worst, a draw on the round. It is very hard for them to fight through us in general (as, to be fair, it is for us to fight through them) -- especially if you have adequate answers to Jace TMS, which is one reason I favor the 2x To the Slaughter in the board over other options like Diabolic Edict or Pithing Needle (Needle is too easily Counterbalanced, Wear//Teared, Council's Judgmented, etc). Kill the fucker and be done with it. Anyway, both decks have trouble fighting through the other, which means games take a while. Fast wins /can/ happen on either side, but it's unlikely. If we win game 1 in 20 minutes (which is actually a bit fast for the matchup), then that means Miracles has to win two games in 15 minutes each, including shuffling, sideboarding, etc.

This makes playing for game 1 as best we can a viable strategy, however, we don't want to go overboard on it. Our sideboard for Miracles is extensive just because of the raw number of bad cards we have vs them (4 Vet 4 Therapy). If we run too many "anti miracles" cards maindeck, we unbalance the deck vs the faster rest of the metagame because we STILL need to have those 8 cards in the board for Miracles no matter what else we do. This means we need to run 2-3 cards that synergize with the deck's gameplan, that aren't actively bad in most situations, and that are the best of the best at what they do.

Primeval Titan is the best for this, by far. At worst, Primeval's failcase is that he is a 6/6 trample who can't be Abrupt Decayed, who gives you +2 virtual card advantage by pulling two lands from your deck. Even if he never manages to swing, he's still a flat +2. At his best, he gets to assemble Two Towers on comes-into-play and then swing afterward, which gives you +4 vca and an engine. Primeval is Zenithable (x=6 means cmc=7, immune to counterbalance), plays well with recursion (in a long game he turns your deck into straight gas), and powers up Emrakul (gets you closer to hardcast, which almost certainly WILL kill Miracles). He's also a card draw engine with Nissa, who we've started to move maindeck as the other primary preboard card.

This comes at the cost of 1 deck slot. He has all of these synergies, with 1 slot. The number of single, solitary cards that have that high of a % impact on a given matchup is very, very low, and I think that Primeval is very important to Sneak because of that. Yeah, he's kinda junky in most other matchups, and he's going to get sideboarded out a lot. But when you need him, you really need him, and if you intend on doing well in tournaments, you have to prepare for and assume that you will need him.

Hope that helps.

Heavily agree with all of this. Primeval Titan is super gross, and definitely a solid spot in my list. He's not going anywhere anytime soon (except into the face of Miracles players).

[Echelon]

Are there more interactions that people could explain and then could be added to the main page? I am new to legacy and this is the deck I am having a lot of fun playing. I started with JUNK fit but am playing an earlier iteration of Navsi's sneak list and really love it. I picked up magic last spring so I have a lot to learn but even played sub-optimally, this list seems to have a ton of power.

So anyhow, an example of interactions I am ignorant of: I hear people here talk about how broke the Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower combination is... but no one ever really describes what those broken things are. I can see how recurring Veteran Explorer would be great... but what else?

Thank you everyone for working on this deck and "showing your work", I always feel like I learn a lot when I visit this thread.

There are. Keep an eye on this thread the coming days, I'll highlight a bunch of those & the rest of the board can evaluate if they'd want my ramblings in the primer.

[truthfulcake]

Are there more interactions that people could explain and then could be added to the main page? I am new to legacy and this is the deck I am having a lot of fun playing. I started with JUNK fit but am playing an earlier iteration of Navsi's sneak list and really love it. I picked up magic last spring so I have a lot to learn but even played sub-optimally, this list seems to have a ton of power.

So anyhow, an example of interactions I am ignorant of: I hear people here talk about how broke the Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower combination is... but no one ever really describes what those broken things are. I can see how recurring Veteran Explorer would be great... but what else?

Thank you everyone for working on this deck and "showing your work", I always feel like I learn a lot when I visit this thread.
The biggest interaction with Stronghold and Tower is that you can put a sneak attack threat back on top of your threat again and again to beat your opponent to death. If you have a threat that threatens to walk away with the game (like Meren, a Titan or Thragtusk), you can just keep recurring it until your opponent either runs out of answers or you win the game (Or lose to a combo). Doesn't work with Emrakul though, since he'll just shuffle himself away unfortunately.

You can also use Tower to dodge exile effects like Swords. If you're recurring a Thragtusk every turn, no fair deck can reasonably handle you gaining 5 life and a 3/3 beast every turn.

[pettdan]

You can also use Tower to dodge exile effects like Swords. If you're recurring a Thragtusk every turn, no fair deck can reasonably handle you gaining 5 life and a 3/3 beast every turn.

I actually lost a game vs Miracles with an active Jace using that strategy so be aware it isn't necessarily always enough.

[truthfulcake]

I actually lost a game vs Miracles with an active Jace using that strategy so be aware it isn't necessarily always enough.
Im actually curious how that lost you it. I'd guess it wasn't a jace ultimate and lock you with counterbalance (What 5 drops does Miracles even run...), because even after jace ulty so you could still theoretically put Thrag or any creature even on top of your library every turn so you don't deck yourself. Mentor beat down for the win?

[volrathxp]

Stronghold/Tower is pretty absurd vs Miracles, because you use it to dodge their removal and recur giant threats. I find this combination is even better in Sneak Fit because you can land a Sneak Attack to get around Counterbalance.

@truthfulcake: Force of Will.

[truthfulcake]

Stronghold/Tower is pretty absurd vs Miracles, because you use it to dodge their removal and recur giant threats. I find this combination is even better in Sneak Fit because you can land a Sneak Attack to get around Counterbalance.

@truthfulcake: Force of Will.
Oh, der, of course. That'll do it. I keep forgetting Force of Will has a manacost...

[pettdan]

Im actually curious how that lost you it. I'd guess it wasn't a jace ultimate and lock you with counterbalance (What 5 drops does Miracles even run...), because even after jace ulty so you could still theoretically put Thrag or any creature even on top of your library every turn so you don't deck yourself. Mentor beat down for the win?

I think this may have been during spring 2015 so it's a bit vague to me, but the opponent could use the Jace brainstorming to draw into answers for Thragtusk and the token also occasionaly bouncing the token with Jace. And I guess Terminus for a Thragtusk on board gets rid of the token if you sacrifice Tusk to Phyrexian Tower before the Terminus resolves, that allows the Miracles player to draw more cards than you for a turn and potentially build up a board state that allows them to race you (?), Clique the Tusk during your draw step or just Entreat/Mentor away. I think it may have been an Entreat ending that game..

[Echelon]

I'm going to go out and say that Nissa is better than Sigarda if you can only fit in one.

Blasphemy!


This is kind of what I was thinking. I could replace Sigarda with Nissa, and then replace Meren with Thrun for a similar card that's hard to interact with.

Blasp...hemy..?

@emaugust: Reread your post, saw your question was mainly about Sneak Fit. I'm mainly a Junk Fit guy, so there's no need for me to divulge.

[sdematt]

Blasphemy!



Blasp...hemy..?

@emaugust: Reread your post, saw your question was mainly about Sneak Fit. I'm mainly a Junk Fit guy, so there's no need for me to divulge.

Yeah, Nissa is not straight up better than Sigarda. Sigarda is our main dude. Does Nissa beat onboard Jace, Liliana, or both? The answer may shock you! I think Sigarda has to be included, and Nissa should be considered. I cut the 1-of Batterskull for her to try her out. I wasn't getting much with the lifegain; I was dreamcrushing Delver anyway.

[Echelon]

Yeah, Nissa is not straight up better than Sigarda. Sigarda is our main dude. Does Nissa beat onboard Jace, Liliana, or both? The answer may shock you! I think Sigarda has to be included, and Nissa should be considered. I cut the 1-of Batterskull for her to try her out. I wasn't getting much with the lifegain; I was dreamcrushing Delver anyway.

I tried out Atraxa over Rhino #4 this weekend. Me like! And I got to try out my Sylvan Library for the first time. OMG, that thing is insane.

[cherson]

I tried out Atraxa over Rhino #4 this weekend. Me like! And I got to try out my Sylvan Library for the first time. OMG, that thing is insane.

did u splash blue or gsz only? did u ever draw it and she was dead in hand?
trust u are still on the same list u posted pages ago?

[Echelon]

did u splash blue or gsz only? did u ever draw it and she was dead in hand?
trust u are still on the same list u posted pages ago?

Yeah, still am. Did not splash blue, I just GSZ'd. She was dead in my hand once, was able to shuffle her away in all other occasions.

Seriously, running one off-colour card you can cheat in is perfectly fine, there's no need to be afraid.

[truthfulcake]

I think this may have been during spring 2015 so it's a bit vague to me, but the opponent could use the Jace brainstorming to draw into answers for Thragtusk and the token also occasionaly bouncing the token with Jace. And I guess Terminus for a Thragtusk on board gets rid of the token if you sacrifice Tusk to Phyrexian Tower before the Terminus resolves, that allows the Miracles player to draw more cards than you for a turn and potentially build up a board state that allows them to race you (?), Clique the Tusk during your draw step or just Entreat/Mentor away. I think it may have been an Entreat ending that game..
V Clique seems like a really good answer for Stronghold... That'd do it though, sounds like a well played match as well.

Also, I take back my earlier comments about Sakura Tribe Elder; I had a moment today where I GSZ'd for two to get some ramp (I didn't have a sac outlet for the vet explorers, and had two on field my opponent refused to kill), and I stumbled across my Tribe Elder in my library. Turns out having a GSZ'able ramp target on two is pretty good.

[volrathxp]

V Clique seems like a really good answer for Stronghold... That'd do it though, sounds like a well played match as well.

Also, I take back my earlier comments about Sakura Tribe Elder; I had a moment today where I GSZ'd for two to get some ramp (I didn't have a sac outlet for the vet explorers, and had two on field my opponent refused to kill), and I stumbled across my Tribe Elder in my library. Turns out having a GSZ'able ramp target on two is pretty good.

Steve is a dude. He's always done pretty good for me.

[Ulysse95]

Steve is a dude. He's always done pretty good for me.

Yes indeed. It's not because there is some possible answers or tricks to stop the two towers engine that they aren't a deadly engine...

[Brael]

Yeah, Nissa is not straight up better than Sigarda. Sigarda is our main dude. Does Nissa beat onboard Jace, Liliana, or both? The answer may shock you! I think Sigarda has to be included, and Nissa should be considered. I cut the 1-of Batterskull for her to try her out. I wasn't getting much with the lifegain; I was dreamcrushing Delver anyway.

I think Nissa beats both of those, unless they're behind a Moat. Sigarda is definitely good, it's just something I'm thinking about since my list only allows for one 5 drop and Thrun/Nissa still offers pressure, recursion, and being hard to deal with just as Meren/Sigarda does. The downside is that I lose a GSZ target, but the upside is I need less white mana.

If anything, it might be a BUG plan. Blue offers Reality Shift as a replacement for Path so we still have exile based removal but I'm having trouble coming up with other blue cards I would want that justify 2 CMC removal and a loss of Sorin/Pridemage.

[Ricardio]

I think reality shift is not good enough. Also, Leovald is absolutely obnoxious. I have been playing some enchantress on mtgo to sate my curiousity, played a few nic fitters. Leovald has beaten me a few times, not to mention he says if his owner is targeted, so therapy them and they draw a card.

[Brael]

I think reality shift is not good enough.

It's no Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares, but the value of a 2/2 against a deck like ours is pretty small, since most people are running an entire creature suite that interacts favorably with it. It's a card that deals with Gurmag Angler, Marit Lage, and many others. I haven't actually tried it out in a tournament setting, but I think it's better than you're giving it credit for being, especially in a format as creature light as Legacy where the manifest will punish you less.


Also, Leovald is absolutely obnoxious. I have been playing some enchantress on mtgo to sate my curiousity, played a few nic fitters. Leovald has beaten me a few times, not to mention he says if his owner is targeted, so therapy them and they draw a card.

I agree completely with this part though. I saw Shardless has started running him too. It definitely feels like it has a place in Nic Fit, but every BUG list I put together I end up not liking because it just looks like a bad version of Shardless or elves.

[Ricardio]

I believe reality shift deserves testing.

I would play the junk splash blue version, atraxa and Leo are too strong not to include.

[Arianrhod]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

This is where I would look for an Ultimate-style BUG+white build.

[TTX]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

This is where I would look for an Ultimate-style BUG+white build.

Great list! I would actually go with the 1 of Dead-Eye Navigator over Dragonlord Dromoka for better protection of your own creatures in play. I know it's not Zenithable, but anyway, it's synergy with the rest of the deck is nuts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brael]

Perhaps someone can expand on this. I have the basis for a BUG deck in my head.

Traverse to start but then Smallpox and Collective Brutality for enablers. You might not realize it, but Smallpox can get 3-4 card types in the graveyard with just it, and Collective Brutality on a cascade can still escalate two types into the GY (plus it as a sorcery). This is entirely in GB so it leaves open the third color... I lean blue here but red can also work.

[rubblekill]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

This is where I would look for an Ultimate-style BUG+white build.

Very nice list, I would put together a very similar one. I also appreciate the love for Dromoka because I have began to like him more and more after the advent of the eldrazi menace (sort of menace, if you jam therapies explorers and all the good stuff we have access to).
I'd probably play path over strix, because it seems a very gsz oriented deck (and I hate deeding more than 0-1 creatures, even if they replace themselves) and path has to be played imo if we have white. But that maybe opens the possibility of some problems mana wise?

[removedfromgame]

Also, I take back my earlier comments about Sakura Tribe Elder; I had a moment today where I GSZ'd for two to get some ramp (I didn't have a sac outlet for the vet explorers, and had two on field my opponent refused to kill), and I stumbled across my Tribe Elder in my library. Turns out having a GSZ'able ramp target on two is pretty good.

Sometimes STE feels like the unsung hero of the deck, keeping everything glued together through disruption or being unable to get explorers active.

[Arianrhod]

Very nice list, I would put together a very similar one. I also appreciate the love for Dromoka because I have began to like him more and more after the advent of the eldrazi menace (sort of menace, if you jam therapies explorers and all the good stuff we have access to).
I'd probably play path over strix, because it seems a very gsz oriented deck (and I hate deeding more than 0-1 creatures, even if they replace themselves) and path has to be played imo if we have white. But that maybe opens the possibility of some problems mana wise?

I think it'd be way too hard on the mana. Strix is better vs Eldrazi, as well, which is a matchup I like winning.


Sometimes STE feels like the unsung hero of the deck, keeping everything glued together through disruption or being unable to get explorers active.

I've been saying this for years, but people still cut him in favor of more "fun" cards. He always has a place in my lists.

[rubblekill]

I think it'd be way too hard on the mana. Strix is better vs Eldrazi, as well, which is a matchup I like winning.



I've been saying this for years, but people still cut him in favor of more "fun" cards. He always has a place in my lists.

I mean without strix we only really want U for Leo and Atraxa, which can be tutored for with gsz. A stock junk mana base with a U dual (and a island if we want UU to play JTMS) isn't going to do it?
When the new commander become cheaper I'll try something like that

[Ricardio]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Dragonlord Dromoka

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Mana Confluence
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp

sb::
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 To the Slaughter
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

This is where I would look for an Ultimate-style BUG+white build.

I think it should be more so junk splashing blue.
I think 2 islands and jtms is ambitious. switch the island to a scrubland and the jtms to a third rhino and mana conf to a plains?
Strix is a great include I had forgot about.
I have been favoring 2 deed and 1 deluge lately.
No tops is odd, I think 2 brainstorm and 2 top is likely safer.
Disfigures in the side could just be paths.
How do you like trackers? I feel like I would rather have a vindicate and a garruk relentless.

These changes would make it looks much more like the version I am working on albeit I totally forgot about the emrakul killer, Owly.

@rubble: I bought a leo for 33 yesterday and Atraxa is down to 19 from the 26 I bought it at.

[Arianrhod]

Could do that, although we'd lose Clique in the board.

[rubblekill]

Could do that, although we'd lose Clique in the board.

Do we REALLY need clique? If I'm being greedy for that UU I'd snap play jtms. If you can't beat them you join them, lol.
I also think that the most consistent approach would be to play junk splash blue, like Ricardio said, but if you play strixes and bs at that point we are looking at a different deck aka bug splash white. Which is totally fine, we are talking about fairly unexplored territories here, but it's not my jam right now

@ricardio: I'm a cheap mofo, 50€ is a lot [emoji28]

[Navsi]

When I was running Atraxa I found that this mana base worked okay:

2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah

2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Catacombs
5 Other Fetchland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Flex Slot (could be nonland)

The only UU or WW spells I ran was a JTMS and an Elspeth, SC but I had 2 Oath Of Nissa to fix for them.

I was running these blue spells:
2 Brainstorm (These should have been tops)
2 Strix
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Atraxa
1 Leovold
1 JTMS (could easily be cut, he wasn't that impressive)

And these white spells:
2 Swords
2 Stoneforge
1 Tamiyo, Field Researcher
1 Atraxa
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad (definitely gets cut or moved to sb)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion (could easily be cut)
Sideboard Sigarda

I ran 3 Veterans and two Deathrites (zero STE) and had zero trouble with mana. I might cut down on the blue a bit (-2 Brainstorm -1 JTMS +3 Sensei's Divining Top) but I'm confident the deck can handle a manacost split along these lines.

[Ricardio]

Latest Draft of Moist Rhinos

4 Vet
2 DRS
1 STEve
1 E-Wit
1 Leovald
1 Atraxa
4 Rhino
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda
1 DL Dromoka

1 Nissa, VF
1 Sorin, GN

4 GSZ
4 Therapy
3 Decay
2 Deed
1 Deluge
1 Vindicate
2 Path
2 Top

4 Verdant
3 Windswept
1 Trop
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plain
1 Island
1 P Tower
1 V Stronghold
1 Karakas

SB

2 Flusterstorm
2 Kambal
2 B Strix
3 Surgical
4 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet

3 utility lands off-set by 7 ramp creatures.
Tamiyo does nothing on an empty board.
Strix isn't really part of our plan mb, great against different stuff post board.

[rubblekill]

Ok, that has to be the best name ever for a deck.

[mstephenson]

Latest Draft of Moist Rhinos

4 Vet
2 DRS
1 STEve
1 E-Wit
1 Leovald
1 Atraxa
4 Rhino
1 Tusk
1 Sigarda
1 DL Dromoka

1 Nissa, VF
1 Sorin, GN

4 GSZ
4 Therapy
3 Decay
2 Deed
1 Deluge
1 Vindicate
2 Path
2 Top

4 Verdant
3 Windswept
1 Trop
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plain
1 Island
1 P Tower
1 V Stronghold
1 Karakas

SB

2 Flusterstorm
2 Kambal
2 B Strix
3 Surgical
4 Thoughtseize
2 Carpet

3 utility lands off-set by 7 ramp creatures.
Tamiyo does nothing on an empty board.
Strix isn't really part of our plan mb, great against different stuff post board.

How good has Kambal been?

[square_two]

Latest Draft of Moist Rhinos

--list--

3 utility lands off-set by 7 ramp creatures.
Tamiyo does nothing on an empty board.
Strix isn't really part of our plan mb, great against different stuff post board.

I really like this.
Looks like the sort of list that could really benefit from having a second E Witness though. Perhaps in place of the Thragtusk? 4 Rhinos should be enough lifegain...

I say that mainly because of seeing the 2 Paths and Vindicate, but even if you use Witness to grab a fetch from the yard then that goes quite a ways to smoothing mana in the early game. Also useful against combo by getting a 3rd use out of a Therapy, grabbing back Surgical, etc which is also all very nice.

Edit: I may try putting it together this week, I hope I still have some regular nic fit staples ever since I sold a lot of stuff online to get sneak fit going...

Edit2: Rashmi is another option to replace thragtusk with.

[removedfromgame]

Junk fit question.

Curious about the pros and cons of Grave Titan. I run a one-of copy in my list as my tip-top end and the only 6 drop in the deck. Lately I've been feeling kind of glum about my necrotic chum as he lacks real synergy with the deck, most glaringly: not green sun-able. I found that on average I tend to plateau at 5 for a few turns before getting that 6th land (21 + Dryad Arbor total). Now I respect TinTin's power, but I find that I have to do a lot of set up to get it to be relevant, or even game winning, which is the opposite of what I want with a top end one-of bomb. (i.e. having to protect it from counterspells or STP/ ensuring I have the amount of mana to cast him on time) Usually when he sticks he's pretty insurmountable, but I'm less interested in that because I feel like most of the time Sigarda fills the same role.

So I've been toying with the idea of cutting it for a tireless tracker which I don't have a copy of in my list, but I'm also curious about what the general opinion of Dragonlord Dromoka is. I do kind of want a big splashy bomb and if it can be a green sun target that would be amazing.

Is Grave Titan outdated tech? What is he really there for?

The other consideration is Ataxia if I can ever find one.

[ClimbGneiss]

Junk fit question.

Curious about the pros and cons of Grave Titan. I run a one-of copy in my list as my tip-top end and the only 6 drop in the deck. Lately I've been feeling kind of glum about my necrotic chum as he lacks real synergy with the deck, most glaringly: not green sun-able. I found that on average I tend to plateau at 5 for a few turns before getting that 6th land (21 + Dryad Arbor total). Now I respect TinTin's power, but I find that I have to do a lot of set up to get it to be relevant, or even game winning, which is the opposite of what I want with a top end one-of bomb. (i.e. having to protect it from counterspells or STP/ ensuring I have the amount of mana to cast him on time) Usually when he sticks he's pretty insurmountable, but I'm less interested in that because I feel like most of the time Sigarda fills the same role.

So I've been toying with the idea of cutting it for a tireless tracker which I don't have a copy of in my list, but I'm also curious about what the general opinion of Dragonlord Dromoka is. I do kind of want a big splashy bomb and if it can be a green sun target that would be amazing.

Is Grave Titan outdated tech? What is he really there for?

The other consideration is Ataxia if I can ever find one.

Run Titania, Protector of Argoth . At one Cmc Cheaper and green, it is a much better option. I have been continuously baffled by why people can't see its sort of like entreat the Angels for this deck.

[removedfromgame]

Run Titania, Protector of Argoth . At one Cmc Cheaper and green, it is a much better option. I have been continuously baffled by why people can't see its sort of like entreat the Angels for this deck.

I don't know why I keep forgetting about her. I suppose she does fit in nicely with the "all of my 5 drops attack for 5" plan I've got going on with nissa, thragtusk and sigarda.

[ClimbGneiss]

I don't know why I keep forgetting about her. I suppose she does fit in nicely with the "all of my 5 drops attack for 5" plan I've got going on with nissa, thragtusk and sigarda.

You will definitely have a crazy turn where you get a fetch back, have a fetch in play, sac a 5/5 Forest to cabal therapy after atracking and end up with four 5/3s in play plus another 5/5 Forest from the hypothetical nissa.

Ends the game in a hurry.

[Echelon]

Junk fit question.

...

So I've been toying with the idea of cutting it for a tireless tracker which I don't have a copy of in my list, but I'm also curious about what the general opinion of Dragonlord Dromoka is. I do kind of want a big splashy bomb and if it can be a green sun target that would be amazing.

Is Grave Titan outdated tech? What is he really there for?

The other consideration is Ataxia if I can ever find one.

Dromoka is a fine way to close out a game. Though, 5-drops are usually enough to close the game on their own.


Run Titania, Protector of Argoth . At one Cmc Cheaper and green, it is a much better option. I have been continuously baffled by why people can't see its sort of like entreat the Angels for this deck.

B/c having a 5 (or 6, if you GSZ for it) mana card answered by Lightning Bolt is pretty bad.


You will definitely have a crazy turn where you get a fetch back, have a fetch in play, sac a 5/5 Forest to cabal therapy after atracking and end up with four 5/3s in play plus another 5/5 Forest from the hypothetical nissa.

Ends the game in a hurry.

Or, you know, you drop Titania, trigger goes on the stack and your opponent Bolts Titania in response where other cards would steal the game. It's high risk, high reward, but this deck doesn't win by taking risks. This deck wins by pulling ahead of your opponent and burying them in cards. Instead of Titania, opt for Siege Rhino/Sigarda and just go for the sure thing. Why give your opponent an out when you don't have to?

@Ricardio: Dude, that manabase looks like you're cruisin' for a bruisin'. Less duals, moar fetches! Up that colour count!

[Ricardio]

1-2 in a league atm.
2-0'd UR Delver. they lost to infinite rhinos. feels good.
lost both 1-2'd matches against ANT
both matches t1'd me one of the losses. the others were not drawing enough sideboard cards.

just t2'd nissa with tower and vet against bug delver. feels good af :D
rhino strix strix game
2-2 :D

[rubblekill]

1-2 in a league atm.
2-0'd UR Delver. they lost to infinite rhinos. feels good.
lost both 1-2'd matches against ANT
both matches t1'd me one of the losses. the others were not drawing enough sideboard cards.

just t2'd nissa with tower and vet against bug delver. feels good af :D

Moist configuration? How have the U legends been in your opinion?

[Ricardio]

Moist configuration? How have the U legends been in your opinion?

no Leo yet. Atraxa drew a concession from the ur delver.

match 5
lost g1 to t8 ulamog
game 2: i get t2 blind therapy for double sower and flashback for double reshaper. 2 sol lands left. rhino gets the concession.
game 3: 2 vets and some therapies later i resolve rhino, atraxa, dl dromoka. 3-2 aint bad for the first run

List for reference
http://i.imgur.com/vs6hGqu.png
http://i.imgur.com/vs6hGqu.png

Loss were to ANT both times.
Missed teeg one time. I will get him in the sb again
Definitely need a better plan against ant

The treasure chest was crap: some rare blue creature

[Ulysse95]

no Leo yet. Atraxa drew a concession from the ur delver.

match 5
lost g1 to t8 ulamog
game 2: i get t2 blind therapy for double sower and flashback for double reshaper. 2 sol lands left. rhino gets the concession.
game 3: 2 vets and some therapies later i resolve rhino, atraxa, dl dromoka. 3-2 aint bad for the first run


Loss were to ANT both times.
Missed teeg one time. I will get him in the sb again
Definitely need a better plan against ant

The treasure chest was crap: some rare blue creature

I would disable 2 or 3 of the bigshots (along thrag/rhinos/Sorin) to put in 3 inquisition of Kozilek or thoughtseize. Which would really help you against ANT MD and synergize a lot with our cabal.

[rubblekill]

4 ts seems like a lot tbh, and in the main I like no more than 2..not even some storm lists play 7-8 discard spells md

[Echelon]

4 ts seems like a lot tbh, and in the main I like no more than 2..not even some storm lists play 7-8 discard spells md

We shouldn't play X b/c Storm doesn't seems like strange logic to me.

[rubblekill]

We shouldn't play X b/c Storm doesn't seems like strange logic to me.

What are we gonna do with 7-8 md 1cmc discard spells? You tell me.
It's not like we auto lose to counter magic on a combo turn..we are not a combo deck, right?
What you call logic was merely a hyperbole

[Ulysse95]

4 ts seems like a lot tbh, and in the main I like no more than 2..not even some storm lists play 7-8 discard spells md

Were you answering to my post?
Because I was suggesting only 2/3 for 6/7 with cabal.
Or did I miss something?

Edit: ok, I clicked on Ricardio link and saw his TS playset in side ;)

[Navsi]

Running more discard spells in the maindeck isn't that bad an idea. I've done it a few times now and it's usually fine if you're expecting a combo heavy metagame.

I'm going to be taking Sneak Attack with me on Saturday and giving that another run out, this time with Blood Moons in the sideboard and Nissa + Liliana in the maindeck. The uncertain slots are currently Maelstrom Pulse and Primeval Titan - might switch one of those out for an additional Nissa.



4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Thragtusk
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Sneak Attack
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

22 lands (1 Tower, 1 Stronghold)

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
2 Slaughter Games
1 Distended Mindbender

[square_two]

I would disable 2 or 3 of the bigshots (along thrag/rhinos/Sorin) to put in 3 inquisition of Kozilek or thoughtseize. Which would really help you against ANT MD and synergize a lot with our cabal.

I too feel like having 4 Rhinos + Thragtusk is a tad excessive. I'd either replace a couple Rhinos with CA engines like Tracker/Meren (Meren lets you recycle Rhinos, so that is a simple replacement really), or anti-combo stuff like Thoughtseize/Surgical/Glen Elendra or even Notion Thief if you are up to feeling spicy.

Are you really just slamming them or using GSZ to put down more than two Rhinos? I'd think at that point you GSZ for Atraxa or have more mana to get Dromoka.

[Echelon]

Are you really just slamming them or using GSZ to put down more than two Rhinos? I'd think at that point you have another mana to GSZ for Atraxa or another to get Dromoka.

If you can GSZ for Rhino, you can GSZ for Atraxa. They're both 4 mana.

Also - I know I've gone "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino". Works quite well, actually. You can never have too many Rhinos.

[square_two]

If you can GSZ for Rhino, you can GSZ for Atraxa. They're both 4 mana.

Also - I know I've gone "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino". Works quite well, actually. You can never have too many Rhinos.

Ok I might grant you that. I've lost to Burn enough to be satisfied with seeing a herd of Rhinos in hand. :laugh:

Feels like we're coming full rotation from where we were a year ago though.

[Ganfar]

If you can GSZ for Rhino, you can GSZ for Atraxa. They're both 4 mana.

Also - I know I've gone "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino". Works quite well, actually. You can never have too many Rhinos.

I feel the same way with "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino". If someone wants to have Rhino in the deck, max them out or don't play with them at all.

[Ricardio]

I too feel like having 4 Rhinos + Thragtusk is a tad excessive. I'd either replace a couple Rhinos with CA engines like Tracker/Meren (Meren lets you recycle Rhinos, so that is a simple replacement really), or anti-combo stuff like Thoughtseize/Surgical/Glen Elendra or even Notion Thief if you are up to feeling spicy.

Are you really just slamming them or using GSZ to put down more than two Rhinos? I'd think at that point you GSZ for Atraxa or have more mana to get Dromoka.

I cascaded into leovald from a notion thief the other day and realized how much of a nonbo that is.
I agree Tusk can probably be cut but 4 rhinos makes me moist.
Not a huge fan of meren, when I played him, he didn't do much for me but maybe its time to try him out again albeit 4 cmc is the most contested.


If you can GSZ for Rhino, you can GSZ for Atraxa. They're both 4 mana.

Also - I know I've gone "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino". Works quite well, actually. You can never have too many Rhinos.

More rhinos is more better. many games are won by chaining rhinos till your opponent gets angry and tells you to play real legacy.


I feel the same way with "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino". If someone wants to have Rhino in the deck, max them out or don't play with them at all.

4 baby, herding the Skillerhino.

[Navsi]

I feel the same way with "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino". If someone wants to have Rhino in the deck, max them out or don't play with them at all.

I've found a single Rhino to be pretty reasonable actually. Mainly because it's a source of direct damage and stabilization that also happens to work really well with SoFaI, but I don't want to devote multiple deck slots to a finisher which Miracles can trade 1 for 1 with.

[rubblekill]

I've found a single Rhino to be pretty reasonable actually. Mainly because it's a source of direct damage and stabilization that also happens to work really well with SoFaI, but I don't want to devote multiple deck slots to a finisher which Miracles can trade 1 for 1 with.

Even though I love the concept of playing 8rhinos in legacy, in the current metagame I have to agree wholeheartedly with you. I'd rather play a couple of trackers instead of the 3rd and 4th rhino for this exact reason.
Tracker is somewhat underrated I feel

[cherson]

I could imagine that casting rhinos in 4c list is also more heavy than for example a tracker. Personally I play 2 rhinos and 1 tracker.

I don't want to miss thragtusk, he won me so many games and makes people thinking abt their removal. Getting the 3/3 token is amazing.

Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk

[Arianrhod]

I've said my peace on the 4x rhino plan months ago. I think it's a trap, but hey, do you.

[Ricardio]

Tracker is strong and drawing cards is good but abrupt decay is a huge percentage of removal in legacy and in most match ups, I find myself losing because I cant cast all my spells, not a lack of having enough. I could see it being good in some matchups but at 3 cmc I would rather gsz for leo or wait a turn for Atraxa/rhino.

I appreciate this thread because there are so many different people working on the same menagerie deck. We each have unwritten rules to how we construct our nic fit decks. I don't think any person is wrong or that I am right but I operate under the assumption that as long as something works for me, I will use it until it needs to be updated. So things like less than 4 vet/rhino or playing stp over path go over my head because its not what I accept as correct but once again, im not all knowing so I could be wrong.

Back to focus: Beating ANT, I need help obviously haha

atm: -1 tusk, +1 seize to mb. +1 teeg to sb

[rubblekill]

Tracker is strong and drawing cards is good but abrupt decay is a huge percentage of removal in legacy and in most match ups, I find myself losing because I cant cast all my spells, not a lack of having enough. I could see it being good in some matchups but at 3 cmc I would rather gsz for leo or wait a turn for Atraxa/rhino.

I appreciate this thread because there are so many different people working on the same menagerie deck. We each have unwritten rules to how we construct our nic fit decks. I don't think any person is wrong or that I am right but I operate under the assumption that as long as something works for me, I will use it until it needs to be updated. So things like less than 4 vet/rhino or playing stp over path go over my head because its not what I accept as correct but once again, im not all knowing so I could be wrong.

Back to focus: Beating ANT, I need help obviously haha

atm: -1 tusk, +1 seize to mb. +1 teeg to sb

Canonist > kambal because cmc and harder lock

I thought exactly like you do now in regards to 8 rhinos, but I lost so many times against miracles that I lost the faith on that strategy. Probably I'm just a bad player
Tracker baits removal while always being a 241 with a fetch (I play 10 fetches), threaten to bury opponent with cards and becomes (very soon, I might add) bigger than rhino. It's a cheap dude online, try it! I was hesitant once like you..
it's not like it is a bad card like courser [emoji28]

[square_two]

it's not like it is a bad card like courser [emoji28]

There are a handful of sweet interactions in nic fit that I love, solely because of the look on the opponent's face once they realize what's happening.

Courser + Library/Top is one of them.
Playing Meren, having the Eldrazi player pick up the card and read it, then proceeding to get up to 5+ experience counters thanks to Tower/Vet is another.

Lately, there have been a few times I've waited until 5 or 6 mana, then played out Sneak Attack followed by Emrakul and it feels very similar. Even just playing Sneak Attack on turn 3 or 4 you sometimes get to watch a player suddenly realize that nic fit is about to kill them and they don't have an answer. It's the little things in life :tongue:

Edit: Can't remember who mentioned running Daze in BUG Fit just for the candid camera gotcha! if you could ever snag something with it. (combo with Tracker lol)

[Brael]

There are a handful of sweet interactions in nic fit that I love, solely because of the look on the opponent's face once they realize what's happening.

Courser + Library/Top is one of them.
Playing Meren, having the Eldrazi player pick up the card and read it, then proceeding to get up to 5+ experience counters thanks to Tower/Vet is another.

Lately, there have been a few times I've waited until 5 or 6 mana, then played out Sneak Attack followed by Emrakul and it feels very similar. Even just playing Sneak Attack on turn 3 or 4 you sometimes get to watch a player suddenly realize that nic fit is about to kill them and they don't have an answer. It's the little things in life :tongue:

I honestly never get tired of the look on my opponents face when I fetch a Dryad Arbor and completely screw their combat math. It gets even better when Meren returns the Arbor.

Another one I've been enjoying with SE is when I cast a Ranger of Eos, it gets a Sylvan Safekeeper+Endless One, and my opponent realizes all of their spot removal is now dead.

[ClimbGneiss]

Dromoka is a fine way to close out a game. Though, 5-drops are usually enough to close the game on their own.



B/c having a 5 (or 6, if you GSZ for it) mana card answered by Lightning Bolt is pretty bad.



Or, you know, you drop Titania, trigger goes on the stack and your opponent Bolts Titania in response where other cards would steal the game. It's high risk, high reward, but this deck doesn't win by taking risks. This deck wins by pulling ahead of your opponent and burying them in cards. Instead of Titania, opt for Siege Rhino/Sigarda and just go for the sure thing. Why give your opponent an out when you don't have to?

@Ricardio: Dude, that manabase looks like you're cruisin' for a bruisin'. Less duals, moar fetches! Up that colour count!

I can understand the notion that it would be a blowout to lose to bolt. Fortunately, burn and grixis delver are the only places that card is regularly found nowadays and if one identifies those decks, you can easily fetch one of your 3-4 rhinos instead. I think it's a completely reasonable, and even wise, card choice to have a bomb win condition like Titania. To me, it's been rare that I've established several 5/3's and not won right afterwards.

Bear in mind that I'm talking strictly about junk. I've seen the discussions about the 4 color list with Atraxa and Leovold and I couldnt be more in love. Casting cards like siege rhino, Leovold and Atraxa seem like what this deck is all about (in terms of fun and flavor). What are your thoughts on the blue splash?

[gth842s]

I can understand the notion that it would be a blowout to lose to bolt. Fortunately, burn and grixis delver are the only places that card is regularly found nowadays and if one identifies those decks, you can easily fetch one of your 3-4 rhinos instead. I think it's a completely reasonable, and even wise, card choice to have a bomb win condition like Titania. To me, it's been rare that I've established several 5/3's and not won right afterwards.

Bear in mind that I'm talking strictly about junk. I've seen the discussions about the 4 color list with Atraxa and Leovold and I couldnt be more in love. Casting cards like siege rhino, Leovold and Atraxa seem like what this deck is all about (in terms of fun and flavor). What are your thoughts on the blue splash?

I used to run Titania, so I do understand your desire to win on the spot. Unfortunately, if your Titania doesn't get bolted it's just as likely to get sent to the farm (StP) or be bounced by Karakas with trigger on the stack. It's just been too high-variance for me in testing. Grave Titan is strictly better if you want a card that people will concede to. At the five spot, Nissa is better than almost any other option out of sheer versatility - she's always good by virtue of her ability to get back a clutch silver bullet, apply pressure that is StP and Terminus-proof, or net tons of card advantage via the quick ultimate. If Delver were running wild, I might say that personal preference is fine, but Miracles is the deck with a target on its back and Nissa (as well as Thragtusk and Sigarda) is strictly better for that matchup.

Everyone is going to play and build this deck differently, but in my mind we are grinding the game out as plan A. When we win, it tends to be in showy fashion (with a rhino and / or a titan and / or a huge tireless tracker), but that's after many turns of pernicious deed into eternal witness-get back pernicious deed. We're a rock deck with a toolbox package in GSZ and the ability to turn the corner quickly. To that end, I've never been a fan of more than 2 rhinos. Rhinos 3 and 4, for me, are better spent as a Garruk and a Kaya (or a Nissa and a Kaya). They're both so much better against Miracles. If the meta shifts, those spots can be used to bring in other bullets to attack whatever the new meta's weaknesses are.

[ClimbGneiss]

I used to run Titania, so I do understand your desire to win on the spot. Unfortunately, if your Titania doesn't get bolted it's just as likely to get sent to the farm (StP) or be bounced by Karakas with trigger on the stack. It's just been too high-variance for me in testing. Grave Titan is strictly better if you want a card that people will concede to. At the five spot, Nissa is better than almost any other option out of sheer versatility - she's always good by virtue of her ability to get back a clutch silver bullet, apply pressure that is StP and Terminus-proof, or net tons of card advantage via the quick ultimate. If Delver were running wild, I might say that personal preference is fine, but Miracles is the deck with a target on its back and Nissa (as well as Thragtusk and Sigarda) is strictly better for that matchup.

Everyone is going to play and build this deck differently, but in my mind we are grinding the game out as plan A. When we win, it tends to be in showy fashion (with a rhino and / or a titan and / or a huge tireless tracker), but that's after many turns of pernicious deed into eternal witness-get back pernicious deed. We're a rock deck with a toolbox package in GSZ and the ability to turn the corner quickly. To that end, I've never been a fan of more than 2 rhinos. Rhinos 3 and 4, for me, are better spent as a Garruk and a Kaya (or a Nissa and a Kaya). They're both so much better against Miracles. If the meta shifts, those spots can be used to bring in other bullets to attack whatever the new meta's weaknesses are.

I like Kaya and Garruk a lot. I also like Nissa quite a bit. Is there not room for all of these? I see many lists running at least 2 of 3 of the above walkers and at least 2 rhinos, if not 3.

I can understand your point about responding to the trigger. Maybe I just havent had the blow out occur. The idea that you can gsz for Titania is the big draw to me. I mean, it's situational, right? You have to have some idea of whether it's a possibility or not. So, assuming partial knowledge of your opponents hand, its a great way to win the game. I think Nissa is the next most obvious choice.

I like that Kaya acts a little like a better version of Recurring Nightmare.

[ClimbGneiss]

I'm really interested to hear about everyone's thoughts about junk versus the new blue splash. I reallyyy like Leovold. That card seems right up this decks alley.

[mstephenson]

I'm really interested to hear about everyone's thoughts about junk versus the new blue splash. I reallyyy like Leovold. That card seems right up this decks alley.

Leovold is the tits man. He is maindeckable hate bear against combo decks that is still relevant against the rest of the field.

[emaugust]

@emaugust: Reread your post, saw your question was mainly about Sneak Fit. I'm mainly a Junk Fit guy, so there's no need for me to divulge.

Nah man it is all good knowledge if it is about Nic Fit! :smile:

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/8dfPej4.png
http://i.imgur.com/8dfPej4.png (http://i.imgur.com/8dfPej4.png)

Moist Rhinos v2

Took some of the considerations and made the changes. I dont have time tonight to run it so probably tomorrow night. being sick sucks.
Thoughts and suggestions are always appreciated.

CHEERS, M9

[Echelon]

4 baby, herding the Skillerhino.

I call it a Rhinoscopy.


What are your thoughts on the blue splash?

Going too far into blue seems incredibly dangerous to me. It's so demanding on your manabase that you're likely to screw yourself out of games with it. For now I'm sticking with just the 1 and GSZ for it.


I could imagine that casting rhinos in 4c list is also more heavy than for example a tracker. Personally I play 2 rhinos and 1 tracker.

I'm on 4 Rhinos (or 3 and an Atraxa) and a Tracker. And a Courser. You can have it all!

@Ricardio: Dude, dump the ADs for 2 PtE and a Qasali Pridemage! And you probably want another Top in there.

[mstephenson]

Moist Rhinos v2

Took some of the considerations and made the changes. I dont have time tonight to run it so probably tomorrow night. being sick sucks.
Thoughts and suggestions are always appreciated.

CHEERS, M9

Im really not in love with not being able to cast Sigarda off of basics but other than that the mana base does look better(thank god for vet and shaman)
14

[rubblekill]

http://i.imgur.com/8dfPej4.png
http://i.imgur.com/8dfPej4.png (http://i.imgur.com/8dfPej4.png)

Moist Rhinos v2

Took some of the considerations and made the changes. I dont have time tonight to run it so probably tomorrow night. being sick sucks.
Thoughts and suggestions are always appreciated.

CHEERS, M9

I like this! Please win a league and name the deck like that on the various websites

E: no ooze? Seems weird with all this br reanimator BULLSHIT going on atm

[Echelon]

I like this! Please win a league and name the deck like that on the various websites

I'd go with Rhinos-In-The-Rain.

[rubblekill]

@ u splashers: when exactly do you tutor for Leo in non combo mu?

[mstephenson]

@ u splashers: when exactly do you tutor for Leo in non combo mu?

Against jace most of the time.

Also against shadrless when they have visions on suspend if you have seen some decays already.

Can let you get out from under ports if they are prioritizing your other colors for some reason.

[ClimbGneiss]

I'd go with Rhinos-In-The-Rain.

Did you see Cedric Phillips flamed the idea of creative deck list names? I don't remember the exact wording, but basically he called it stupid and useless. Pardon me if I embelished, but I'm pretry sure that was his sentiment.

I get the impression he is not a fan or legacy/vintage players and our attempts at creativity. Hopefully, I'm not blowing things out of the water, but his recent statements seem a little harsh and out of left field.

[Bobmans]

Haters gotta hate.

[Brael]

Did you see Cedric Phillips flamed the idea of creative deck list names? I don't remember the exact wording, but basically he called it stupid and useless. Pardon me if I embelished, but I'm pretry sure that was his sentiment.

I get the impression he is not a fan or legacy/vintage players and our attempts at creativity. Hopefully, I'm not blowing things out of the water, but his recent statements seem a little harsh and out of left field.

Cedric wants formats to have as low a barrier to entry as possible when it comes to understanding them because it makes for a better broadcast when a deck name describes the deck rather than being creative. If someone is brand new to legacy a name like Stax or Nic Fit makes for horrible coverage, and as much as I hate to say it "Abzan Ramp" (or better yet BG/x Ramp) is a much more broadcast friendly name for the deck.

I think the problem with descriptive deck names though, is that the whole system breaks down when you have two different decks in the same color combination. BGW Midrange can describe both Maverick and Nic Fit or BUG Midrange covers our blue builds as much as it does Shardless. SCG however avoids this problem by confining their coverage to only a few decks, so this particular issue never comes up.

Ideal names are both creative and descriptive. It's not an easy thing to do though. Cheeri0s is an example of this.

[Ricardio]

legacy decks are old and have important names full of history and wonderful backstory.
Nic Fit, Solidarity, etc.

[ClimbGneiss]

Cedric wants formats to have as low a barrier to entry as possible when it comes to understanding them because it makes for a better broadcast when a deck name describes the deck rather than being creative. If someone is brand new to legacy a name like Stax or Nic Fit makes for horrible coverage, and as much as I hate to say it "Abzan Ramp" (or better yet BG/x Ramp) is a much more broadcast friendly name for the deck.

I think the problem with descriptive deck names though, is that the whole system breaks down when you have two different decks in the same color combination. BGW Midrange can describe both Maverick and Nic Fit or BUG Midrange covers our blue builds as much as it does Shardless. SCG however avoids this problem by confining their coverage to only a few decks, so this particular issue never comes up.

Ideal names are both creative and descriptive. It's not an easy thing to do though. Cheeri0s is an example of this.

I appreciate the measured, well-thought-out response. I was hoping not to be accusatory in my post, but I'm afraid on that count. I will say that I mostly agree with your take on cheerios and the post below yours which talks about the history of names like nic fit and solidarity.

[Brael]

legacy decks are old and have important names full of history and wonderful backstory.
Nic Fit, Solidarity, etc.

Yes, but adding vocabulary for the viewers doesn't help with growing the format.

[RobNC]

For someone not familiar with Legacy the deck names are a bit confusing. When I was still solely a Modern player I was watching a Legacy Open on Twitch and was watching decks like Burn, Colorless Eldrazi, Reanimator, Storm, and....Tin Fins? WTF is that?

When we're "in the know" it's all good and fun. The descriptive names themselves can get pretty silly by themselves, particularly when you have a Standard season like BFZ/Khans with "Jeskai Black" and "Blue Abzan" and the like. But as a Legacy player I find the deck names fun and a much better description of what you're actually playing. Nic Fit is one that's a little more vague but you still have a general idea of what the deck is trying to do. Others like Maverick, D&T, and Deadguy Ale are just names that stuck, but still have meaning when you are familiar with the format, or ones named after key cards/abilities like Miracles, Food Chain, or Aluren still tell you what the deck will do.

[Echelon]

Did you see Cedric Phillips flamed the idea of creative deck list names? I don't remember the exact wording, but basically he called it stupid and useless. Pardon me if I embelished, but I'm pretry sure that was his sentiment.

I get the impression he is not a fan or legacy/vintage players and our attempts at creativity. Hopefully, I'm not blowing things out of the water, but his recent statements seem a little harsh and out of left field.

I don't care. He's free to say whatever he wants. Why should that piss on my parade? They can call this deck Abzan Ramp Good Stuff (if Rock is no longer a thing) if that's what pleases the crowd. Doesn't mean I won't stop liking stuff like Rhinos-In-The-Rain or SE Fit.

Heck, for me silly names are a motivation to look up what they're about.

[Ricardio]

my favorite names that I've heard are: standard allstars.dec or BG/X EDH

[Navsi]

my favorite names that I've heard are: standard allstars.dec or BG/X EDH

I always liked 'Not Enough Bad Lands.dec' for Scapeshift - I played a Blood Crypt in addition to a playset of Badlands.

[sdematt]

The proper name for Junk splash blue is "Tombstone," except we dont run Brainstorm.

[Ricardio]

The proper name for Junk splash blue is "Tombstone," except we dont run Brainstorm.

I'll be your huckleberry.

[Navsi]

I might be running the Starfield deck tomorrow, and if I do it's going to go on my decklist as Nyx Fit.dec.

[square_two]

I might be running the Starfield deck tomorrow, and if I do it's going to go on my decklist as Nyx Fit.dec.

I played that one online for a few leagues earlier this year. Keep in mind if you are running Curse of Death's Hold, that last time I checked, modo was bugged and would not allow you to put it into play from Rector. Talked with judges and they saw no reason that you couldn't in paper though.

Going to run Living Plane?? :cool: