[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Navsi]

I played that one online for a few leagues earlier this year. Keep in mind if you are running Curse of Death's Hold, that last time I checked, modo was bugged and would not allow you to put it into play from Rector. Talked with judges and they saw no reason that you couldn't in paper though.

Going to run Living Plane?? :cool:

I'm playing in paper - I don't even have a modo account. Living Plane is in, yes. It's my backup plan for if I can't borrow any Blood Moons for my Sneak Fit sideboard.

[Brael]

Played a 4 round Legacy last night. Fell victim to a massive meta shift. My 4 rounds were against Show and Tell x2, Dredge, and Storm. Show and Tell managed to get Omniscience in on T2 three times (out of 4 games) followed by casting Emrakul, Storm T1'ed me twice, and Dredge got me on turns 2 and 3. So all in all, a pretty bad night. In 4 rounds I played a total of 10 turns.

I realize this deck signs up for streaks like that, but it's still frustrating. To cap the night I went 0-2 against Shardless. G1 involved a mulligan to 4 and G2 a mulligan to 6, though I still think Shardless is a pretty good matchup. In both cases it took 3+ Ancestral Visions to even get close to pulling ahead of me.

It wasn't all bad though, I managed to find a Nissa, Vital Force for trade so I was able to put that in Nic Fit and play it a bit today in place of Sigarda. Got in a few games against Delver and it's pretty solid. It wasn't as good against them as Sigarda but Delver is a match where we can afford to give up a couple percentage points. I don't know how I feel yet about a no Sigarda version but it wasn't unplayable. What I did notice with Nissa is that she makes Phyrexian Tower/Deed a little better and Cavern/DRS a little worse. I wasn't running a STE but I could see a world where Nissa makes it a bit stronger.

[Ricardio]

bad beats are inevitable. Just gotta ask for lube next time and hope they oblige.

[Brael]

I know the SFM builds are popular, but I've never really bought into the hype. A new card is coming out in Aether Revolt though: Trophy Mage.

Has anyone thought about this for a possible BUG build that still uses artifacts? The plus side is that blue is a more versatile color than white, and the tutor is a bit different, getting 3 CMC rather than equipment, you can still get Swords, it's a stronger body, and the tribe is more relevant. Cards I've identified that are interesting tutor targets are:
Blasting Station
Bow of Nylea
Crucible of Worlds
Oblivion Stone
Proteus Staff
Shardless Agent
Trinisphere
Vedalken Shackles
Sword of Fire and Ice
Sword of Light and Shadow
Sword of Feast and Famine
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Body and Mind

The negatives are that you're not getting the mana discount SFM offers, and you actually have to cast it.

Does any of this jump out to someone as a BUG enabler?

I kind of like the idea of using either Bow of Nylea or a Sword of X and Y combined with Vedalken Shackles to pivot between aggro and control depending on the matchup and stage of the game.

[MDHackbert]

I doubt we run enough islands for Shackles. But my Shackles XP comes from Modern.

[Echelon]

Guess who's finally going to pilot Nic Fit again on a monthly today?

I'll let you guys know how it went. Will post my list then.

[Ralf]

Hello,

With the actual meta (huge demons flying everywhere), I don't see any reason to not include Lotv.

Here is my list (also available in my signature):

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Swords To Plowshares

3 Lingering Souls
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Sylvan Library

1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains

Sideboard

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke


For those who really want to tinker with a small blue splash for Atraxa and Leovold, I would suggest:
- Cut a SFM & SOFI
- Add Atraxa and Leovold + 1 tropical island.

If you feel afterwards that 21 lands + Arbor is too much, you can cut a fetch and play 60 cards.

Anyway, the grind with this abzan list is very real:
- Lotv + lingering is not as busted as PF + lotv but still very powerful.
- Our Miracle MU is much better than usual Abzan list I've seen here. Lingering + arbor + equipment are haymakers...
- Eldrazi is very manageable.
- Combo is combo. Either you have it or you die but here again Lotv is very very handy.

Happy testing !

Ralf

[Brael]

I doubt we run enough islands for Shackles. But my Shackles XP comes from Modern.

We don't run all that many, but we do also run Sakura Tribe Elder and Veteran Explorer to get them. It's not that hard to get every Island in your deck onto the battlefield. The only question becomes one of how many we actually need n the deck. 5 gets Angler, 4 usually gets Goyf, 3 gets Delver, 2 gets the rest.

[Navsi]

Just finished the tournament today. I took Starfield since I wasn't able to get my Blood Moons in time.

This build deserves more attention. It's seriously powerful and does very strong things. The array of Rector targets seriously demolish a lot of decks, and Miracles has an absolutely horrible time.

It is, however, really difficult to play - you have a lot of options with Zenith and Rector, and there are a lot of triggered abilities to remember. I missed way too many over the day but the deck still performed very well. I ended up losing in the finals to Aluren, but would have won if I had side boarded correctly and made the right plays.

The list I ran:

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant

3 Sterling Grove
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Starfield of Nyx
1 Living Plane
1 Parallax Wave
1 Dead Weight
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Faith's Fetters

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Abzan Charm

Sideboard:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Humility
1 Seal of Primordium

[square_two]

Just finished the tournament today. I took Starfield since I wasn't able to get my Blood Moons in time.

This build deserves more attention. It's seriously powerful and does very strong things. The array of Rector targets seriously demolish a lot of decks, and Miracles has an absolutely horrible time.

It is, however, really difficult to play - you have a lot of options with Zenith and Rector, and there are a lot of triggered abilities to remember. I missed way too many over the day but the deck still performed very well. I ended up losing in the finals to Aluren, but would have won if I had side boarded correctly and made the right plays.

Did you get to Living Plane -> Doomwake Giant anyone??

Agreed that the idea needs some more evaluation and testing, also agreed that optimal lines are tough to pick out. Think my suggestions would be 1 Top -> Library, 1 Abzan Charm -> Dead Weight, but without hearing how they performed for you and without my own testing...it doesn't matter a whole lot :rolleyes:

Starfield of Nyx is so powerful.

If I win some more leagues with Sneak then I'll try to regather some of the stuff I once had for Nyx Fit.

[Navsi]

Did you get to Living Plane -> Doomwake Giant anyone??

1 Top -> Library, 1 Abzan Charm -> Dead Weight

I got to Deed all of the lands (with Starfield in play) twice.

Abzan Charm is there to translate infinite flicker from Parallax Wave into infinite damage. Might not be worth it though.

[Sohmxat]

@Navsi what were your lands looking like? If I can get look at that from you I'll probably be able to pilot something close to your list next wednesday at my local. Unless you're playing something like 4 Phyrexian Towers in it.

Sent from my XT1031 using Tapatalk

[square_two]

4-1 league with Sneak Fit, with wins against Miracles x2, D&T, and BUG Delver. Loss against ANT (bad keeps on my part for sure). Might not mean much but with practice I feel I'm playing tighter.

Tracker was an experiment, but might end up cutting him...haven't seen him perform in a while, and might be best as just Deathrite #2 or just removed outright to bring total to 60. Most of the time you are more concerned about either getting mana into play early on, or finding pieces for the combo or tutoring up a Titan to cast. I did like that Bellower can get him into play, but so far 95% of the time you want E Wit, Empath, or Rec Sage instead. Nissa is kind of a bigger version of land-based CA, definitely could try a second sometime. Perhaps in place of Sidisi since then we aren't losing a GSZ or 6-drop target.

Those are only changes I might make to mainboard, the rest feels very good.

Painful Truths was great against Miracles - in these last two successful matches, I tried to include less Surgical/Thoughtseize/Slaughter Games than I normally throw in, instead focusing on more raw power and Truths was great for that. I'm also definitely sticking with 3 Carpets, they are so far quite amazing. Pyroclasm isn't pulling much weight, at least #2, so that might become a Deluge. Blood Moon still in consideration instead of Meren, I just haven't wanted to pay for the tix for it. Would love to hear anyone's experience with running it in the side.

http://imgur.com/YLtOhFl.jpg

[Echelon]

So... My outing was horrendous. Went 0-3, drop to get in some Witcher time.

Round 1 vs. Burning Reanimator (1-2)
G1, he goes for a T2 Sire of Insanity while I whiff on PtE.
G2 I go T1 CT on Entomb, hit 2, Surgical those, T2 DRS + another discard, taking Animate Dead, T3 Lost Legacy his Griselbrand into more discard, Eternal Witness to retrieve Lost Legacy, proceed to kick ass w/ PtE backup in case he does manage to get a creature until I took the game
G3, believe it or not, he manages to Reanimate/Exhume Griselbrand, Elesh Norn AND Chancellor of the Annex ON T1. Well, GG.

Round 2 vs. Miracles (0-2)
G1 I get greedy and go for Atraxa over Rhino. He drops Jace the following turn.
G2 I do quite well actually, Lost Legacy'ing Jace and (I believe) Terminus. At some point I pop a Deed to kill Clique + Counterbalance, after which he Entreats his 1-off Angels for X = 5. Well, shit.

Round 3 vs. Reanimator (1-2)
G1, he goes T1 Griselbrand and I whiff on PtE
G2, I have all the hate. Kinda like G2 vs. Burning Reanimator. I begin stuck on land but cast like 5 discard spells the first few turns, drop a DRS and manage to PtE an Elesh Norn until I stabilize on mana and Lost Legacy him out of the game w/ an active DRS and a Scavenging Ooze.
G3, repeat of G1 except I do have PtE but he also has FoW. He also Reanimated my dead DRS and Exhumed his can't-remember before he kills me.

Next round I was likely to face Miracles again, or some other horrible MU, so I called it a day.

I'm very impressed by Lost Legacy, it did a LOT of work yesterday.

[Navsi]

@Navsi what were your lands looking like? If I can get look at that from you I'll probably be able to pilot something close to your list next wednesday at my local. Unless you're playing something like 4 Phyrexian Towers in it.

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Phyrexian Tower

If you don't have enough Towers the deck does suffer, I'd say you probably want to maintain your sacrifice outlets by putting a Diabolic Intent in for Abzan Charm in the maindeck.

[Brael]

Still playing with the Trophy Mage concept, but I'm not overly familiar with SFM lists. So a question for the SFM players. Besides SFM, what would you say the best support cards for the archetype were aside from the equipment? I know combat walkers were always powerful.

[Navsi]

Still playing with the Trophy Mage concept, but I'm not overly familiar with SFM lists. So a question for the SFM players. Besides SFM, what would you say the best support cards for the archetype were aside from the equipment? I know combat walkers were always powerful.

If you're running equipment and in blue, you should run Baleful Strix.

[Echelon]

Glissa also seems like some cool tech. Doesn't die in combat, which is nice when wielding equipment, and can possibly recur Strixes/Equipment.

[Jain_Mor]

Still playing with the Trophy Mage concept, but I'm not overly familiar with SFM lists. So a question for the SFM players. Besides SFM, what would you say the best support cards for the archetype were aside from the equipment? I know combat walkers were always powerful.

Dryad Abor so you can attack immediately after a terminus, and keep doing so as long as you have a green fetch land.

Thrun / Sigarda so you have a hexproof zenith target (I guess you could ignore this if you are spamming strixes and souls tokens)

That's it really, those are what I always make sure to have in my SFM lists.

I never run glissa, and if you are running strixes you definitely don't need her (especially as your 3-drop slot will be packed because of trophy mage and their trophies)

Finally in your list of 3 cmc artifacts, you didn't mention Ensnaring Bridge. Probably not maindeck, but could be a solid sideboard card when you can tutor it

[Echelon]

Finally in your list of 3 cmc artifacts, you didn't mention Ensarong Bridge. Probably not maindeck, but could be a solid sideboard card when you can tutor it

Same might go for Trinisphere? If you manage to live long enough it might be a nice nail in the coffin vs. Storm.

[Brael]

Finally in your list of 3 cmc artifacts, you didn't mention Ensarong Bridge. Probably not maindeck, but could be a solid sideboard card when you can tutor it

I was only including cards that this might want. I excluded a couple equipments as well since they didn't fit into the colors/strategy. There seems to be a glut of 3 drops here which makes emptying your hand for Bridge difficult.


Glissa also seems like some cool tech. Doesn't die in combat, which is nice when wielding equipment, and can possibly recur Strixes/Equipment.

The three slot is probably too crowded. 2-3 tutor targets and Trophy Mage is already 6-7 3 drops and we haven't even gotten into any of the CA engines.

[square_two]

Still playing with the Trophy Mage concept, but I'm not overly familiar with SFM lists. So a question for the SFM players. Besides SFM, what would you say the best support cards for the archetype were aside from the equipment? I know combat walkers were always powerful.

I believe I was running 2 Deed, 1 Deluge main as sweepers in my old SFM list from earlier in the year. One less Deed to avoid losing your equipment to seemed ok at the time. Elspeth, Knight-Errant always seemed a house when I could land her - what's better than Arbor suited up with equipment? Arbor given +3/+3 and flying with that equipment. :cool:

[Brael]

I believe I was running 2 Deed, 1 Deluge main as sweepers in my old SFM list from earlier in the year. One less Deed to avoid losing your equipment to seemed ok at the time. Elspeth, Knight-Errant always seemed a house when I could land her - what's better than Arbor suited up with equipment? Arbor given +3/+3 and flying with that equipment. :cool:

I was kind of thinking about one of the green 2 drops with Vigilance as an equipment carrier.

Brushstrider
Steward of Valeron
Sylvan Advocate


Of those, I like Advocate the most since it combos well with Shackles putting out lands and it's value off Explorer too so it pivots well (though begs the question, why not just play Goyf?), but I like that Steward helps alleviate the 3 drop congestion by providing mana too.

I haven't yet figured out if this conflicts with Strix though, which is also a solid Sword carrier. I think this build has to give up Divining Top.

[Navsi]

If you want something to help you get through with Sword triggers, I'd say Grim Flayer and Baleful Strix are your best bets.

[square_two]

I haven't yet figured out if this conflicts with Strix though, which is also a solid Sword carrier. I think this build has to give up Divining Top.

I've been watching twitch user Stryfo lately and he has a unique BUG Fit list. No GSZ, full 4 Deathrite, Strixes, 2 Trackers, Garruk Relentless, couple of Jace, and it tops out with Nissa VF and Ob Nixilis. Pulse of Murasa from the side has done some phenomenal work. It's basically a lower-cmc no-GSZ list that is chock full of value. Basically instead of having 7 mana to GSZ for a fatty, he uses excess mana to play all the extra cards the deck draws. Painful Truths->E Witness-> Truths-> Pulse Witness->Truths...

I'd suggest anyone on here to look him up and check out what the deck can do.

Just thinking, with Strixes along with CA-generating equipment tutors like SFM or this new blue guy, could be possible to mimic that style - equipment beats instead of planeswalkers though.

[Brael]

I've been watching twitch user Stryfo lately and he has a unique BUG Fit list. No GSZ, full 4 Deathrite, Strixes, 2 Trackers, Garruk Relentless, couple of Jace, and it tops out with Nissa VF and Ob Nixilis. Pulse of Murasa from the side has done some phenomenal work. It's basically a lower-cmc no-GSZ list that is chock full of value. Basically instead of having 7 mana to GSZ for a fatty, he uses excess mana to play all the extra cards the deck draws. Painful Truths->E Witness-> Truths-> Pulse Witness->Truths...

I'd suggest anyone on here to look him up and check out what the deck can do.

Just thinking, with Strixes along with CA-generating equipment tutors like SFM or this new blue guy, could be possible to mimic that style - equipment beats instead of planeswalkers though.

Sounds like something up my alley. Do you happen to have Stryfo's list offhand? I can't check Twitch for the next couple days, or really brainstorm lists for a bit because of crunch time for the semester.

[removedfromgame]

I've been watching twitch user Stryfo lately and he has a unique BUG Fit list. No GSZ, full 4 Deathrite, Strixes, 2 Trackers, Garruk Relentless, couple of Jace, and it tops out with Nissa VF and Ob Nixilis. Pulse of Murasa from the side has done some phenomenal work. It's basically a lower-cmc no-GSZ list that is chock full of value. Basically instead of having 7 mana to GSZ for a fatty, he uses excess mana to play all the extra cards the deck draws. Painful Truths->E Witness-> Truths-> Pulse Witness->Truths...

I'd suggest anyone on here to look him up and check out what the deck can do.

Just thinking, with Strixes along with CA-generating equipment tutors like SFM or this new blue guy, could be possible to mimic that style - equipment beats instead of planeswalkers though.

I would love to take a look at this list. Pulse of Murasa was a card I've been thinking about for a long time, but I had concerns about it's power level.

I used to be pretty cold towards GSZ, but after seeing what it does when you have 4 in the deck and you're constantly shuffling, I have a lot of difficulty imagining the deck without them. I'd be interested to see how many cantrips and value cards they run total.

[uncletiggy]

I've been away from nicfit for some time now ironing out a turbo depths list but some recent acquisitions have me looking at bugfit as a new toy. I'm still brewing but I've decided a tezz/thopter plan is what I want to play but the numbers are still a mess. I'm looking at this and scratching my head. I still need to pick up a few things but here's where id like to start.

4 Veteran explorer
3 baleful strix
1 hangerback walker
1 e witness
1 edric
1 leovold
1 glissa
1 verdurous gear hulk


3 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek

4 tezzerat
3 zenith
3 top

4 cabal therapy
2 ee
1 deed
1 counterbalance
3 decay

22 lands

3 bayou
1 tropical
1 usea
4 verdant
2 misty
2 delta
3 forest
2 swamp
2 island
1 phyrexian tower
1 tar pit

3 chalice
1 trinishpere
2 ensnaring bridge
1 counterbalance
2 ts
1 grip
3 force
2 ?

Scooze, sower of temptation, deathrite, jace, innocent blood, painful truths, and sylvan library are glaring omissions. So little space... I'm not sold the stompy manarock shell is the only home for tezz.

[Jain_Mor]

There seems to be a glut of 3 drops here which makes emptying your hand for Bridge difficult

Who are you siding bridge in against? D&T ^-^? I think you'll be fine getting less than 15..7..5.. or even 4 cards in your hand. And a strix with a sword is only 3 power so you can create some powerful asymmetry for the attack step against some decks with silly creatures

[Ricardio]

I've been away from nicfit for some time now ironing out a turbo depths list but some recent acquisitions have me looking at bugfit as a new toy. I'm still brewing but I've decided a tezz/thopter plan is what I want to play but the numbers are still a mess. I'm looking at this and scratching my head. I still need to pick up a few things but here's where id like to start.

4 Veteran explorer
3 baleful strix
1 hangerback walker
1 e witness
1 edric
1 leovold
1 glissa
1 verdurous gear hulk


3 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek

4 tezzerat
3 zenith
3 top

4 cabal therapy
2 ee
1 deed
1 counterbalance
3 decay

22 lands

3 bayou
1 tropical
1 usea
4 verdant
2 misty
2 delta
3 forest
2 swamp
2 island
1 phyrexian tower
1 tar pit

3 chalice
1 trinishpere
2 ensnaring bridge
1 counterbalance
2 ts
1 grip
3 force
2 ?

Scooze, sower of temptation, deathrite, jace, innocent blood, painful truths, and sylvan library are glaring omissions. So little space... I'm not sold the stompy manarock shell is the only home for tezz.

*_* you have my attention!

[lavafrogg]

Any love for a straight GB build?

[Navsi]

Any love for a straight GB build?

The mana base available to us is good enough at splashing a third colour doesn't really impact our consistency much. There isn't much reason not to, unless you just really want to run Hymn to Tourach, but the additional utility the other colors five you is generally just more powerful.

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/ujzi1ed.png
http://i.imgur.com/ujzi1ed.png
BUG fit in a league against BR reanimtor 2-0'd himm with double drs game 1 :D

1-0 in league

[square_two]

BUG fit in a league against BR reanimtor 2-0'd himm with double drs game 1 :D

1-0 in league

Seeing Master Biomancer there is just beautiful!

[Ricardio]

http://i.imgur.com/RlmnH6f.png
http://i.imgur.com/RlmnH6f.png
.....ladies....gentlemen....the dream...

UPDATE: we did it
http://i.imgur.com/Os4CoRZ.png
http://i.imgur.com/Os4CoRZ.png

2-0 (4-1)

done for now :D

also this http://i.imgur.com/uoNuco2.png

[jbone2016]

Any love for a straight GB build?

I was tinkering with a food chain build.

[Echelon]

I was tinkering with a food chain build.

What advantage would BG Food Chain give you over regular Food Chain?

[rubblekill]

http://i.imgur.com/RlmnH6f.png
http://i.imgur.com/RlmnH6f.png
.....ladies....gentlemen....the dream...

UPDATE: we did it
http://i.imgur.com/Os4CoRZ.png
http://i.imgur.com/Os4CoRZ.png

2-0 (4-1)

done for now :D

also this http://i.imgur.com/uoNuco2.png

Holy..this..this is awesome!! No reactions from the opponent?

[Echelon]

Holy..this..this is awesome!! No reactions from the opponent?

General disbelief, probably. Lol

[Ricardio]

Holy..this..this is awesome!! No reactions from the opponent?
Everyone has paused to read master bio.

General disbelief, probably. Lol

I imagine they are mad that they are losing to an edh deck haha

[rubblekill]

Everyone has paused to read master bio.


I imagine they are mad that they are losing to an edh deck haha

How do you like Jace in the deck? To me he is the top reason to play blue (after simic sky swallower, of course).

[grokh]

Hi,

Just did a top4 on a 24 players tournament this Sunday, i played the following list :

// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [UNH] Island
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [R] Bayou
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [] Windswept Heath
1 [] Atraxa, Praetor's Voice
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [] Eternal Witness
1 [] Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [] Scavenging Ooze
1 [AVR] Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 [] Siege Rhino
4 [] Veteran Explorer
1 [] Nissa, Vital Force
1 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [] Pernicious Deed
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
3 [CMD] Path to Exile
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [] Kambal, Consul of Allocation
SB: 1 [MBS] Glissa, the Traitor
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [C13] Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 [] Golgari Charm
SB: 1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [] Sanctum Prelate
SB: 2 [] Painful Truths

Round 1 : Enchantress

G1 : He took a early Cabal therapy on Argothian enchantress (we knew each other so we know against which deck we played), then flashback on Veteran explorer and a big Primeval titan which crushed him (i had to decay some Ghostly prison and Elephant grass before)

G2 : Kambal came very fast (on turn 2 or 3), and the drain life didn't helped him

Win 2-0

Round 2 : Miracles

G1 : Very long game (45 mins) where he took some Rhino attacking before being removed. Then, Leovold has attacked him several turns and it was had for him to cantrip. Sigarda attacked some turns and dealt some points. At a moment he is at 3 life, i attacked with Sigarda. He hardcast Terminus, then has just 1 mana left and no cards in hand. I look with Top and see 3 lands so I decide to Path my own Sigarda in response, take a land and see 3 new cards : GSZ/Rhino/land. On my turn he had CB + Top so i go for Zenith for X=6, and take the Rhino from the top to finish him !

G2 : Game very fast where he kills me with a Monastery and 6 Monk friends on the 3rd additionnal turn.

Draw 1-1

Round 3 : Eldrazi

G1 : Short game, i take Chalice at 1, then Mimic, followed by TKS and Reality smasher

G2 : I win by resetting the board twice with Deeds, the Pithing needle on Wasteland helped me to keep my mana out of his denial

G3 : Big game, Mimic then TKS, then Matter reshaper. I block him every turn, recurring a Rhino with Wohlraj + Tower. He'll go until he's at 3 life and topdeck a Reality smasher, i won't have enough blockers and take 7, i was at 7 :(

Lost 1-2

Round 4 : Burn

G1 : He wins fast with Goblin guide then 2 Fireblasts, sure that helping him with my Veteran triggers isn't good

G2 : An early Kambal will fast make some coffee with sugar and all the stuff

G3 : same as G2 but MORE coffee with Kambal, then Rhino, then Sorin who will go until -6 and recur my Rhino again + take his Goblin guide :p

Win 2-1

Round 5 : Omnitell (without Sneak attack, mono U)

I know the player cos it's my friend with i travelled since early in the morning from my country :)

G1 : He early S&T, he puts Omniscience, i put Primeval titan, then he hardcast Emrakul ... :(

G2 : I open a perfect hand : Thoughtseize, Cabal, Veteran, Kambal, Reclamation sage and 2 lands, i just destroy his hand, drop Kambal ten attack and wait. He'll S&T, he puts Omniscience, i put Reclamation sage, he wanted to go on Emrakul and i win

G3 : he'll early S&T : he puts Emrakul, i put Primeval titan tutoring for Karakas + other land, then bounce Emrakul on my turn. The titan will race him until victory.

I finished 7th at end of the rounds and GO TOP 8 !

TOP8

1/4 Final - Eldrazi (same player as round 3)

He got toss, he starts

G1 : I keep a hand with 2 Cabal, GSZ, and other things so i keep. He opens by Chalice at 1. I'm forced to throw a Cabal for putting in gy, then GSZ on Veteran and flashback my Cabal still in the void just for ramp. I'll manage to get a Rhino but that won't be enough

G2 : He opens on Leyline of the void, i had kept a hand with Golgari charm so i destroy the Leyline with Charm on my T2, then i'l go for Rhino + Atraxa who'll race him

G3 : I manage to get Glissa + Rhino. He falls into the Glissa trap by attacking with Matter reshaper equipped with Jitte but no counters on Jitte (he did'nt knew how Glissa worked). Then he got a board with TKS + 2 Oblivion sower + Reality smasher and i prefer play safe by cracking my Deed at X=6. Then lots of turns where we both land go. I find a Rhino who'll get until the end cos i deal with his beasts with my Paths and Pulse.

Win 2-1

1/2 Final - Death and taxes

G1 : Double Mother of runes, Serra avenger and Mirran crusader. I got Path, Decay and Pulse in hand but can't do anything cos double Mother and he rishadans me every turn ...

G2 : Long game where i'll empty his board with a Deed then he'll topdeck lots of lands, he'll get 4 Rishadan port and tap my 4 black sources every turn. I finish by getting a 5th black source, put Sorin on board. Sorin will bring me back from 4 life to 12 life by putting 1/1 Vampire lifelink tokens then Emblem and he has no topdecks

G3 : Big opening for him with Thalia, Mother, Wasteland and Rishadan. The Flickerwisp will end the game

Lose 1-2

I finish 4th of the tournament and go with a Batterskull as my reward.

They'll will split top8.

Top8 is :

1) Bant
2) Death and taxes
3) Eldrazi (with W for Displacer)
4) Nic fit ( ME !!)
5) Eldrazi (without Displacer)
6) High tide
7) Tin fins
8) Zoo

Not sure on 7 and 8 but there's a Tin fins in top 8 for sure, and i'm not sure what was the 8th deck !

I think i'll do the following changes in my list for next tournament :
MD :
-1 Rhino +1 Thragtusk
-2 Path to exile +2 Blessed alliance

SB :
-1 Pithing needle +1 Engineered plague

[cherson]

Hi,

Just did a top4 on a 24 players tournament this Sunday, i played the following list :


congrats on the finish. I always thought that d&t is a good mu but recently I lost all my games to them.
I play a quite similar list online atm.
- 2 rhino
- 1 titan
- 1 pulse
- 1 scooze
- 1 sorin, loi
- 1 pte
+ 2 baleful strix
+1 thragtusk
+1 vindicate
+1 tracker
+1 garruk
+1 deathrite
(+1 ste / 61 cards).

I consider to add an underground sea to have at least 3 blue sources. have u ever been lacking the right colors? except you got ported obv.

great move btw..
++
He hardcast Terminus, then has just 1 mana left and no cards in hand. I look with Top and see 3 lands so I decide to Path my own Sigarda in response, take a land and see 3 new cards : GSZ/Rhino/land. On my turn he had CB + Top so i go for Zenith for X=6, and take the Rhino from the top to finish him !
++

[Hanzalot]

@Ricardio - would you post your Biomancer list? That would be great!

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Navsi]

Tournament this Sunday.

Starfield or Sneak Attack? That is the question.

Both feel enormously powerful. Sneak Attack is definitely easier to play, but Starfield needs testing more.

[Ricardio]

How do you like Jace in the deck? To me he is the top reason to play blue (after simic sky swallower, of course).

JTMS is amazing. I think the grean creatures you get in blue are a huge reason to play BUG but also people fear Force from you.
Strix and flusterstorm are great sb cards as well. Notion thief is cute but nonbos with Leo.
Master Bio seems borderline unplayable at first but once you realize he dodges everything but swords and makes all your creatures threats, a stupid grins befalls your face.


@Ricardio - would you post your Biomancer list? That would be great!

Thanks

http://i.imgur.com/xZpzPdd.png
This link is close. I won't be able to post updated till later since im at work. ideally, I will have a chance at lunch.

The list is fun.

I am also stoked about the tezz build :D

[Surfkatt]

Tournament this Sunday.

Starfield or Sneak Attack? That is the question.

Both feel enormously powerful. Sneak Attack is definitely easier to play, but Starfield needs testing more.

StarField! That deck seems super cool and potentially powerful.

[Navsi]

StarField! That deck seems super cool and potentially powerful.

I do also get to annoy judges with Humility/Starfield/Living Plane questions, which is always a nice bonus.

[square_two]

I do also get to annoy judges with Humility/Starfield/Living Plane questions, which is always a nice bonus.

I've really been wanting to get Living Plane + Humility out. Your lands uh...are 1/1 creatures...with no abilities :laugh:

[Ricardio]

I've really been wanting to get Living Plane + Humility out. Your lands uh...are 1/1 creatures...with no abilities :laugh:

Curse of Death's Hold :cool::cool:

[removedfromgame]

So my Junk fit list is pretty streamlined against the majority of the field, but I'm still terrified of combo in most of it's iterations. I run 3 surgicals, 3 thoughtsieze, teeg and needle for my general combo match ups. Sneak and Show doesn't really see play in my meta currently and there are one or two reanimator decks, both UB and BR.

My current board plan is below, should I be running lost legacy as well? I feel that outside of D&t, my mainboard is well versed against the majority of the legacy field, with some matches being closer to 50/50 than others.

3 Thoughtsieze
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Massacre

(for reference the main is this:)

Lands: 22
8 Fetches
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Forest

Creatures: 15
4 Explorer
1 Deathrite
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Non Creature: 23
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
1 Dismember
1 Painful Truths
1 Nissa, Vital Force

[Ricardio]

So my Junk fit list is pretty streamlined against the majority of the field, but I'm still terrified of combo in most of it's iterations. I run 3 surgicals, 3 thoughtsieze, teeg and needle for my general combo match ups. Sneak and Show doesn't really see play in my meta currently and there are one or two reanimator decks, both UB and BR.

My current board plan is below, should I be running lost legacy as well? I feel that outside of D&t, my mainboard is well versed against the majority of the legacy field, with some matches being closer to 50/50 than others.

3 Thoughtsieze
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Glissa, the Traitor
2 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Massacre

(for reference the main is this:)

Lands: 22
8 Fetches
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Forest

Creatures: 15
4 Explorer
1 Deathrite
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Non Creature: 23
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vindicate
1 Dismember
1 Painful Truths
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Tsunami is just better than choke.
dismember and swords should be 2 path
switch a top to a library?
Have you tried Kambal in the side? He is good.
Lost legacy seems to be better than I initially thought (yes, echelon)

[rubblekill]

Tsunami is just better than choke.
dismember and swords should be 2 path
switch a top to a library?
Have you tried Kambal in the side? He is good.
Lost legacy seems to be better than I initially thought (yes, echelon)

You are welcome [emoji35]

E. I still think that canonist is better for her implications against elves and Lauren, 2 horrible mu in my experience

[removedfromgame]

Tsunami is just better than choke.
dismember and swords should be 2 path
switch a top to a library?
Have you tried Kambal in the side? He is good.
Lost legacy seems to be better than I initially thought (yes, echelon)

Yeah, so I find that choke has been underwhelming outside of the one or two times i "get someone" with it. I like that switch.

I agree with the two path, but I'm fond of dismember. I'm going to switch it up and see how that feels. I think that I might not be looking at that switch from an objective enough standpoint.

I haven't tried kambal, my biggest concern is that I can't green sun for him, making it more difficult for me to run him as a silver bullet. How have you felt about your odds of seeing him vs his contribution to the match up?

I'm against library in the main because of my pernicious deeds, but against storm does it do enough to warrant a slot? In that match i take out my deeds, but I'm a little wary. It seems slow?

I really should test out lost legacy.

[Ricardio]

You are welcome [emoji35]

E. I still think that canonist is better for her implications against elves and Lauren, 2 horrible mu in my experience

Haha sorry. You were right as well.
I think canonist is better but Kambal(Kumbal) seems strong to play as well.


@removed: you are playing arbor, cmon man. Also, I suggest trying a single deluge over the 3rd deed. Additionally, making room for a tracker might help your grind games.

[mistercakes]

ran this at my local and went 3-1.

4 veteran explorer
4 deathrite shaman
1 sakura tribe-elder
1 eternal witness
1 tireless tracker
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 thragtusk
2 baleful strix
(21 spells)
4 green sun's zenith
3 sensei's divining top
4 cabal therapy
2 jace, tms
2 nissa, vital force
1 ob-nixilis reignited
1 garruk relentless
2 abrupt decay
1 pernicious deed
1 innocent blood
(23 land)
2 phyrexian tower
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacomb
1 polluted delta
1 dryad arbor
2 underground sea
1 tropical island
2 bayou
3 forest
2 island
2 swamp

i didn't really like the tribe elder that much, prob would run another bayou over it. i would also like to squeeze in a volrath's stronghold, could be the innocent blood's spot.

sb i ran was:

2 engineered plague
1 faerie macabre
2 surgical extraction
1 maelstrom pulse
1 pernicious deed
1 lost legacy
1 thoughtseize
1 flusterstorm
2 abrupt decay
2 pithing needle
1 massacre

r1: blue/red delver.

his draws were unremarkable, thragtusk down both games and he couldn't catch up.

r2: aggro loam.

game 1 i had an early garruk relentless and just got too much card advantage with planeswalkers.
game 2 was close, but he ended up killing himself with dark confidants (i extracted his loam, then witnessed it back to get his punishing fires)

r3: ANT.

lost game 1. game 2 i drew my sb cards. game 3 was close but he outraced me.

r4: miracles

won a really really long game. drew about 10 extra cards with nissa ult. recurred deed to protect myself from angels.

(we never got to play a game 2)

[Brael]

Finally got Nissa onto the field. I like her, she's like our very own Reality Smasher.

Besides the Trophy Mage build which I'm still brewing but at least a month away from testing, revisiting walkers seems fun. The question seems to be between BUG for Jace or Junk for Sorin.

Edit: Chandra, Flamecaller opens up an interesting Jund build too.

[removedfromgame]

@removed: you are playing arbor, cmon man. Also, I suggest trying a single deluge over the 3rd deed. Additionally, making room for a tracker might help your grind games.

Ugh, I know. Every time I see that card I get morally offended. However the surprise chump blocker never gets old and sometimes it's a relevant thing to sacrifice to therapy. It's annoying how many random uses it has. I have a buddy who I argue with often about that card (he err's on the side of keeping it) but I keep looking to cut it so bad it wished I didn't cut it so bad.

I want to play tracker. I need to fit it somewhere. Deluge is interesting. My lgs has learned to respect deed.

[Ricardio]

Finally got Nissa onto the field. I like her, she's like our very own Reality Smasher.

Besides the Trophy Mage build which I'm still brewing but at least a month away from testing, revisiting walkers seems fun. The question seems to be between BUG for Jace or Junk for Sorin.

Edit: Chandra, Flamecaller opens up an interesting Jund build too.

But the tezz fit list?


Ugh, I know. Every time I see that card I get morally offended. However the surprise chump blocker never gets old and sometimes it's a relevant thing to sacrifice to therapy. It's annoying how many random uses it has. I have a buddy who I argue with often about that card (he err's on the side of keeping it) but I keep looking to cut it so bad it wished I didn't cut it so bad.

I want to play tracker. I need to fit it somewhere. Deluge is interesting. My lgs has learned to respect deed.

a land that dies to deed/deluge and doesn't tap when it enters but also dies to wasteland as well as everything short of decay: NEGATIVE, GHOST RIDER.
They are just suggestions, I don't think your choices are wrong.

[Brael]

But the tezz fit list?

Still haven't seen the list. I forgot about it honestly. I'm pretty busy through the middle of next week. Eventually I'll take a look at it, from the description you provided it sounded neat.

[removedfromgame]

a land that dies to deed/deluge and doesn't tap when it enters but also dies to wasteland as well as everything short of decay: NEGATIVE, GHOST RIDER.
They are just suggestions, I don't think your choices are wrong.

Preaching. I'm tinkering with cutting it for the blue splash because Atraxa feels like the real deal.

[Ricardio]

Preaching. I'm tinkering with cutting it for the blue splash because Atraxa feels like the real deal.
Its worth testing. check out my lists. HAPPY BREWING

[Ricardio]

Still haven't seen the list. I forgot about it honestly. I'm pretty busy through the middle of next week. Eventually I'll take a look at it, from the description you provided it sounded neat.

I took a wack at it. Check out my Imgur in my signature for lists.

[Hanzalot]

http://i.imgur.com/xZpzPdd.png
This link is close. I won't be able to post updated till later since im at work. ideally, I will have a chance at lunch.

The updated list would be awesome. How did Nissa, Vastwood Seer work out?

[Ricardio]

The updated list would be awesome. How did Nissa, Vastwood Seer work out?

http://i.imgur.com/9ux4iTN.png

Not better than tracker D:

[Echelon]

Lost legacy seems to be better than I initially thought (yes, echelon)

Dude, it's friggin' amazing! Firing off the first one is good enough, but firing off a second copy is pretty much the final nail in the coffin vs. a number of decks.

[Navsi]

Working on Nyx Fit for this weekend.

I think the build could really do with a copy or two of Nissa, Vital Force. Currently looking at this:

22 lands (3 tower)

4 Vet
4 Rector
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant

4 Zenith
4 Therapy
3 Top
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Deed
3 Sterling Grove
2 Starfield
1 Living Plane
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Dead Weight
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Parallax Wave

Last slot wants to be either a second Dead Weight or an additional Zenith target. It would be nice to fit in a Zenith option that actually applies pressure, but I don't feel like Tireless Tracker fits into the deck particularly well otherwise. We also already have absolutely loads of card advantage engines. Rather than play a second Dead Weight I might give a Liliana LH a shot.

[Hanzalot]

Working on Nyx Fit for this weekend.

I think the build could really do with a copy or two of Nissa, Vital Force. Currently looking at this:

22 lands (3 tower)

4 Vet
4 Rector
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant

4 Zenith
4 Therapy
3 Top
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Deed
3 Sterling Grove
2 Starfield
1 Living Plane
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Dead Weight
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Parallax Wave

Last slot wants to be either a second Dead Weight or an additional Zenith target. It would be nice to fit in a Zenith option that actually applies pressure, but I don't feel like Tireless Tracker fits into the deck particularly well otherwise. We also already have absolutely loads of card advantage engines. Rather than play a second Dead Weight I might give a Liliana LH a shot.


Could you give a short run down of how this list works? I can gather some of the combos but feel like I'm missing quite a bit.

Thanks!

[Navsi]

Could you give a short run down of how this list works? I can gather some of the combos but feel like I'm missing quite a bit.

Thanks!

Simple summary: Academy Rector is amazing and probably wins you the game. Therapy and Tower let you sacrifice him without interruption and he usually results in a kill. You don't have a main board answer to storm, but basically every other match up folds to a Rector trigger or two.

Card choices:
Starfield: out grinds everyone. Recur Deed and Sterling Grove, provide win condition, recur removal and blockers, do silly things with Parallax Wave flickering itself.

Sterling Grove: Protect your stuff (Doomwake Giant with shroud is scary), one card combo if you aren't under pressure by fetching Starfield to recur itself. Instant speed sacrifice let's you turn Starfield back off in response to sweepers.

Living Plane: stops miracles from sweeping the board. One sided Armageddon with Doomwake Giant to lock up the game. Turns Deed into Armageddon.

Faith's Fetters: Removal for Inkmoth, Jace, Griselbrand and basically anything else.

Parallax Wave : Unconditional removal at instant speed. Exile your own Witness to keep stuff locked away forever. Exiles permanently or infinitely flickers your own stuff with active Starfield.

Doomwake Giant: Finisher. Blocks Angler. Gets Shroud from Sterling Grove and ends the game with Living Plane. Recurrence with Starfield, fetch able with Rector.

Dead Weight : Recurrable removal that kills Deathrite. Gets past Pendelhaven and Mentor Prowess. Is an enchantment for Eidolon and Doomwake.

Eidolon of Blossoms: Draws way too many cards. Out-CA Shardless and Miracles. Can't be Decayed, survives most Deeds, gets Shroud with Grove.

Courser of Kruphix : Stabilizes against Aggro. Another recurring blocker. CA engine with Top. Swings for 3 under Starfield.

Everything else is pretty standard. Top is way better than Library here because it survives all the Deeds we crack.

Rector + untapped Phyrexian Tower should beat basically anything your opponent puts on the table.

[square_two]

Working on Nyx Fit for this weekend.

I think the build could really do with a copy or two of Nissa, Vital Force. Currently looking at this:

22 lands (3 tower)

4 Vet
4 Rector
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant

4 Zenith
4 Therapy
3 Top
1 Nissa, Vital Force

3 Deed
3 Sterling Grove
2 Starfield
1 Living Plane
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Dead Weight
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Parallax Wave

Last slot wants to be either a second Dead Weight or an additional Zenith target. It would be nice to fit in a Zenith option that actually applies pressure, but I don't feel like Tireless Tracker fits into the deck particularly well otherwise. We also already have absolutely loads of card advantage engines. Rather than play a second Dead Weight I might give a Liliana LH a shot.

I've been looking to potentially finish building back my online list for this.

The major downside of this version is the lack of Abrupt Decay, really. That and the fact that GSZ is not as versatile due to small number of targets and cmc of targets (1,3,4 instead of typical spread). Maybe those aren't as bad as I think they are - my current list does look similar. I'd hate to just flat out get way worse against Delver without some cheap removal...I'm opting for definitely at least 2 Dead Weight. Hopefully we might see future enchantments printed that could alleviate these things.

The major upside is that a single Rector tutor wins against a majority of decks. It's also really easy to have leylines in the side against graveyard/burn/storm matches.

Part of me really wishes that Oath of Nissa was good enough, but I'm not sure if it is.

[Navsi]

I've been looking to potentially finish building back my online list for this.

The major downside of this version is the lack of Abrupt Decay, really. That and the fact that GSZ is not as versatile due to small number of targets and cmc of targets (1,3,4 instead of typical spread). Maybe those aren't as bad as I think they are - my current list does look similar. I'd hate to just flat out get way worse against Delver without some cheap removal...I'm opting for definitely at least 2 Dead Weight. Hopefully we might see future enchantments printed that could alleviate these things.

The major upside is that a single Rector tutor wins against a majority of decks. It's also really easy to have leylines in the side against graveyard/burn/storm matches.

Part of me really wishes that Oath of Nissa was good enough, but I'm not sure if it is.

I've tested with Oath of Nissa. It isn't good enough, mainly because it doesn't hit enchantments which makes it garbage in this deck. Too many misses.

Honestly, the deck is not bad against Delver. If anything it's the same as most others. The list plays Courser (who's great against them) and while it doesn't have Swords, it does instead have Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters and eight Moats in Veteran Explorer and Academy Rector.

[square_two]

I've tested with Oath of Nissa. It isn't good enough, mainly because it doesn't hit enchantments which makes it garbage in this deck. Too many misses.

Honestly, the deck is not bad against Delver. If anything it's the same as most others. The list plays Courser (who's great against them) and while it doesn't have Swords, it does instead have Oblivion Ring, Faith's Fetters and eight Moats in Veteran Explorer and Academy Rector.

Oh wow, for some reason I thought Oath did grab enchantments. Yea that's bad.

[Brael]

I took a wack at it. Check out my Imgur in my signature for lists.

Your signature claims 0 albums/images when I try it.

[Ricardio]

Your signature claims 0 albums/images when I try it.
FIXED. Sorry.

[gth842s]

I'm taking Sneak Fit for a spin tonight if the snow doesn't make getting to the LGS problematic. Have there been any changes or updates to the generally standard list recently?

If anyone has any general guidance for how to play it, decide on mulligans, or sideboard with it that would be appreciated as well.

[square_two]

I'm taking Sneak Fit for a spin tonight if the snow doesn't make getting to the LGS problematic. Have there been any changes or updates to the generally standard list recently?

If anyone has any general guidance for how to play it, decide on mulligans, or sideboard with it that would be appreciated as well.

Not many changes at all. I've been trying out Nissa, Vital Force in place of Sidisi in the main. Someone recently mentioned Dreadbore to me as a replacement for To the Slaughter, but I haven't decided on trying it yet. Maybe 3 Decays, 2 Dreadbore main instead of the PFire package? Smooth answer for Gurmag, and having another Decay would be very nice. Yet PFire handles Jace well and also can be free wins against small creature decks throughout an entire match. And if you get up to enough mana to cast two PFire a turn, you are in great shape.

Part of me still wants to jam 2 Tireless Tracker somehow, as well. Finding myself wishing for more card draw/value...can't have everything though.

Starting to question Primeval Titan as well. It's great against Miracles but against mostly anything else, I find myself Empath-ing for Inferno Titan in order to clear opponent's board or ping a walker to sudden death. It's nice having a tutor for Stronghold though, since that land is so strong here. Don't think the deck can afford to play a 2nd due to the Groves - removing them like I said above could make room.

All that being said...I'm sticking closely to my current list until GP Louisville is over.

[Ricardio]

taking it to a GP? that's awesome. Stay bold, my friend.

[Hanzalot]

Awesome summary.

Thanks! Appreciate it a lot. Time to dust off the old Living Plane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hanzalot]

Error

[Kobra_D]

@removed: you are playing arbor, cmon man. Also, I suggest trying a single deluge over the 3rd deed. Additionally, making room for a tracker might help your grind games.

I'm not just trying to be contradictory but when do you find yourself wanting the deluge? I could see an argument against eldrazi but there are a lot more match ups that I am concerned with facing (miracles, d&t, jund, bug, lands, deathblade) where I would imagine a third deed as more devastating.

[Ricardio]

I'm not just trying to be contradictory but when do you find yourself wanting the deluge? I could see an argument against eldrazi but there are a lot more match ups that I am concerned with facing (miracles, d&t, jund, bug, lands, deathblade) where I would imagine a third deed as more devastating.

There are times where you need to deluge on 3. It's let's mana intensive. Diversification is an old wooden ship.

[crush]

I'm not just trying to be contradictory but when do you find yourself wanting the deluge? I could see an argument against eldrazi but there are a lot more match ups that I am concerned with facing (miracles, d&t, jund, bug, lands, deathblade) where I would imagine a third deed as more devastating.

How do you plan to beat D&T with Revoker on Deed + active MoM?

Having Deluge helps a lot vs them and it's about on par with Deed vs deathblade. It is only worse vs goyf.dec in the late game.
A T3 Deluge costs about as much life as a T4 Deed vs an active goyf. Sure, it sucks if it gets countered, but probably wouldnt win with Deed in its spot anyway.

[Echelon]

How do you plan to beat D&T with Revoker on Deed + active MoM?

Golgari Charm takes care of that just fine.

Also, you can just ignore it and smash face with a Rhino.

[Tokugawa]

How do you plan to beat D&T with Revoker on Deed + active MoM?

Having Deluge helps a lot vs them and it's about on par with Deed vs deathblade. It is only worse vs goyf.dec in the late game.
A T3 Deluge costs about as much life as a T4 Deed vs an active goyf. Sure, it sucks if it gets countered, but probably wouldnt win with Deed in its spot anyway.

Prelate@3 could stop both deed and deluge, which is painful. Against DnT, maybe more diversified sweeper would be better.

[MDHackbert]

Would Damnation be good against Prelate decks, or is it too slow?

[gth842s]

Sneak Fit is the real deal. 3-0 tonight against Delver, Elves, and a Bant 12-post / Show and Tell hybrid. Split with Grixis Delver in round 4 due to snow and people wanting to hit the road.

[Navsi]

Sneak Fit is the real deal. 3-0 tonight against Delver, Elves, and a Bant 12-post / Show and Tell hybrid. Split with Grixis Delver in round 4 due to snow and people wanting to hit the road.

What fatties did you run / did you give Nissa or any of the other flex slot spice a try?

[grokh]

Prelate@3 could stop both deed and deluge, which is painful. Against DnT, maybe more diversified sweeper would be better.

And Prelate@3 stops Engineered plague too ...

Is there a card good against D&T (and some more in the metagame), which could fit in the SB with a CCM different than 3 ?

I thought to :
Dread of night but that seems way too much against only D&T
Black sun's zenith never tested that card

[cherson]

And Prelate@3 stops Engineered plague too ...

Is there a card good against D&T (and some more in the metagame), which could fit in the SB with a CCM different than 3 ?

I thought to :
Dread of night but that seems way too much against only D&T
Black sun's zenith never tested that card

I run 1x massacre in the sb.

[rubblekill]

About prelate, have anyone here tested the card? It seems like it can complement teeg better than canonist vs miracles AND combo, it basically creates a lock they can hardly, if ever, deal with. Maybe it's just magical Ricardio-Land? [emoji1]

[Navsi]

Prelate is alright. Not being able to Zenith for it is pretty awkward, and it costs more mana than Ethersworn canonist so if you want a hatebear to shut down Storm etc then Canonist is more likely to resolve before they can go off. It also can be a pain for the manabase if you're not as heavily in white (e.g. in the Atraxa 4-colour builds).

For sideboard against D&T, I normally run some number of Golgari Charm or Massacre. Pyroclasm isn't bad either.

[grokh]

I run 1x massacre in the sb.

Against which MUs do you enter Massacre other than D&T ?

[Navsi]

Against which MUs do you enter Massacre other than D&T ?

Stoneblade variants
Maverick
RW Painter
Miracles if they are heavy on Mentor
Infect if they run white sources
White Aluren builds
Thalia Goblins

[Brael]

But the tezz fit list?

I've had a chance to look at it now, I don't think it's what I want to run as far as a PW list goes.

[Ricardio]

About prelate, have anyone here tested the card? It seems like it can complement teeg better than canonist vs miracles AND combo, it basically creates a lock they can hardly, if ever, deal with. Maybe it's just magical Ricardio-Land? [emoji1]

double W is difficult. What cmc would you name against various matchups?
MAGICAL RICARDIO-LAND IS A WONDERFUL PLACE!


I've had a chance to look at it now, I don't think it's what I want to run as far as a PW list goes.

I would say its far from a polished product. Basically just a baseline of sorts.

[gth842s]

What fatties did you run / did you give Nissa or any of the other flex slot spice a try?

I ran the stock Arianrhod list with some tweaks in the sideboard to fit my preferences and local meta. In the side, notable changes were:

-1 Gaze of Granite
-2 To the Slaughter
-1 Something else I can't remember
+1 Glissa
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Leyline of the Void (A lot of players locally have been testing out B/R Reanimator recently)

I didn't take the most detailed notes as most of my brain was focused on trying to learn how to pilot the deck, but a few notable situations where I think Sneak outperformed my standard Junk lists:

Round 1 vs. Grixis Delver:

Game one, my opponent hits me with a turn 3 therapy. He can grab punishing fire, sneak attack, emrakul, or GSZ. He takes the p-fire because he can't beat it and loses very quickly to Emrakul. He ended up underestimating how quickly the deck could turn the corner. Even compared to the life gain inherent to Junk, this version just closes the game so quickly both because once sneak is out we cheat on mana and because of the haste.

Round 2 vs. Bant-Post

This was a brew that my opponent has brought to multiple Legacy Preservation Series (local 1k series w/ invitationals for legacy) top 8's. It's locuses, show and tell, blue cantrips, top, and terminus. Game one, my opponent gets out Emrakul and I haven't drawn a fatty yet (or a sneak attack, so he doesn't know what's up). Game two, my opponent brainstorms in response to my thoughtseize to hide Emrakul. I play along, take his SDT, and leave him a show and tell. He untaps, plays show and tell, drops Emrakul. I drop in sneak attack, untap, haste in Sidisi sacrificing Veteran Explorer, fetch Emrakul, haste in Emrakul, and get him for exact damage and no permanents. Junk would have just lost to the snuck-in Emrakul. Game three, I can tell my opponent is keeping a Terminus ready on top by the way he's resetting his library with top during my end step, so I start with some Fierce Empath beats. I get Tower out, so it's safe to sneak out Primeval Titan, getting Stronghold. From here, my opponent can't meaningfully interact because of the ability to sacrifice in response to Terminus. We go to turns but I hard-cast an Emrakul (from rebuying Primeval Titan so much) on Turn one, untap for turn two, move to attackers, he bounces Emrakul with Karakas and realizes I can re-cast again plus haste in PT and Inferno Titan, and concedes.

Round 3 vs. Elves

Honestly I think I got lucky here, but thanks to Pyroclasm plus P-Fire plus Deed plus Decay, my draws felt much more "live" in this matchup. I did die to a huge behemoth game two. Game three I deeded for 0 to kill 3 Dryad Arbor, which felt great. I followed that up with another Deed and Inferno Titan.

I would've liked to play out Round 4 against Delver again but the weather was getting dicey and most folks were eager to get home, so we split the prizes and I conceded to him because he plays more frequently and is in the running for the local legacy invitational.

Sidisi and Meren felt the most open to cutting, but I'd cut Meren based on your metagame before I cut Sidisi. Sidisi is just one more way to tutor up the right bullet to outright win the match, even if Nissa provides tons of pressure versus Miracles. Meren might go, but I'd have to figure out what to remove her for (maybe a Chandra, Torch of Defiance, but then we're down another GSZ target). There just isn't a lot of shardless or jund around for me right now. I'd want to test her vs Eldrazi before making that decision though.

[moseby]

@ gth842s

I agree about Meren, it is a fantastic card, but I do not believe she fits a sneak build. Lots of reanimator where I am so DRS and Scooze in the main. Cannot find room for Primetime either which is vexing.

[RobNC]

Coming from the D&T side against Nic Fit I would typically name 1 (Path/Plow and Therapy) or 2 (Abrupt Decay), only naming 3 if I did not have a Revoker or Needle for Pernicious Deed. However if I saw a Deluge in game 2 then I would definitely be naming 3 in a third game.

Nic Fit has removal with CMC 1-3 so there's always options, especially if there isn't an active Mom. The only way I was ever able to beat Nic Fit is if I could pressure mana very early, but once the Nic Fit player gets going it's hard for D&T to do much of anything to keep up.

[Ricardio]

Coming from the D&T side against Nic Fit I would typically name 1 (Path/Plow and Therapy) or 2 (Abrupt Decay), only naming 3 if I did not have a Revoker or Needle for Pernicious Deed. However if I saw a Deluge in game 2 then I would definitely be naming 3 in a third game.

Nic Fit has removal with CMC 1-3 so there's always options, especially if there isn't an active Mom. The only way I was ever able to beat Nic Fit is if I could pressure mana very early, but once the Nic Fit player gets going it's hard for D&T to do much of anything to keep up.

Revoker and mirran crusader are huge problems, now prelate becomes a nuisance.
Luckily, DT isn't huge online atm so its not the headache for me, yet.

[Kobra_D]

How do you plan to beat D&T with Revoker on Deed + active MoM?

Having Deluge helps a lot vs them and it's about on par with Deed vs deathblade. It is only worse vs goyf.dec in the late game.
A T3 Deluge costs about as much life as a T4 Deed vs an active goyf. Sure, it sucks if it gets countered, but probably wouldnt win with Deed in its spot anyway.

Tapping out to play deed and eating an attack might be equivalent to paying x for a turn. I guess I do find wanting a deed in a lot of cases because my friends play miracles and d&t but a single deluge might make the cut.

If you wanted something for SB against d&t, there is massacre, to the slaughter can help if you stick it early, zealous persecution is always cute, and there is a black enchantment whose name I cannot think of where all white creatures get -1/1.

Personally, I want to see demon of dark schemes to become an option.

[grokh]

and there is a black enchantment whose name I cannot think of where all white creatures get -1/-1.

Dread of night :cool:

[Ricardio]

Personally, I want to see demon of dark schemes to become an option.

Hey there, young person. How about Massacre Wurm?

[RobNC]

Revoker and mirran crusader are huge problems, now prelate becomes a nuisance.
Luckily, DT isn't huge online atm so its not the headache for me, yet.

This is true, but in most D&T lists Mirran Crusader is being cut or is in reduced numbers to make room for the other toys - like Prelate. I play one myself because there's lots of BUG decks in my metal, but I've seen many decks with none at all, or only as a 1-of in the sideboard. Plus, you'll still have Path or Plow to take care of it outside of Mom protection (and many D&T lists are even dropping to 3 of her!).

[Ricardio]

lost the league with bug fit
2-3
beat BR reanimator
beat 4c loam
lost UW hatebears/TNN/SFM
Lost W Eldrazi (t1 chalice, t2 smasher, t3 smasher)
lost Grixis delver/TNN

felt bad. varianced in my bootyhole.

[Arsenal]

Went 4-1 in GP Milwaukee Legacy Challenge, good for 2nd place. Report and list forthcoming. :cool:

[Bobmans]

Prelate@3 could stop both deed and deluge, which is painful. Against DnT, maybe more diversified sweeper would be better.

Let's assume that they will drop Prelate @ 2 or 1, depending on if your playing Punishing Fire or Path/Swords. Worst case would be @ 2 while on Jund builds, since that shuts down Decay/PFire and Deed. This would also shuts down Golgari Charm, but open up Toxic Deluge. What other "realistic" options does NicFit per default have to offer?

Reclamation Sage // Requires to out manoeuvre MoM to take out Revoker.
Kolaghan's Command // Could target both MoM and Revoker, but the most likely scenario is that they will protect Revoker while sacrificing MoM. So this would require a follow on play.
Pithing Needle // Shut of MoM

If you really fear this play then first thought would be to include bigger removal:
Damnation // probably the preferred choice, since this also takes out Eldrazi boards. But kills your own board.
Chandra, Flamecaller: Sweeps and kills, if not answered... Yes, yes, RR and CMC 6 is a pain. But running double Mountain, 2x Stormbreath Dragon's and a pair off balls will improve any matchup playing something white (looking at you Miracles...).
Black Sun's Zenith // Dodges Prelate, and shuffles back making it sort of recurrable. But also hits your creatures.
Virtue's Ruin // Meta specific and @3.
Dread of Night // Very specific and only takes care of the MoM problem.
Dark Blast // Also very specific, but is @1, recurrable and instant speed.
Lightning Bolt, Death Mark, Funeral Charm, Dismember, Disfigure // Specific spot removal could be added in specific meta's, But i do not believe that bringing in spot removal from the board is better then either sweepers, permanents, recurrable or tutorable cards (for NicFit at least).

And the last alternative Defense is going on the Offense here. Bring out the fatties and attack into MoM. Eventually they will have to sacrifice something, if not all eventually. Also, putting on pressure on the opponent might force mistakes... And to the very least your going down guns blazing...

But one crucial factor here is: how did you get in this situation in the first place? What error on our side gave so much room for our opponent to develop a board like this? Aside from the obvious losing the dice roll and having to mull into an opponent's god hand.

[grokh]

Worst case would be @ 2 while on Jund builds, since that shuts down Decay/PFire and Deed.

Sanctum prelate@2 doesn't stop Pernicious deed, it's CCM is 3 !


Reclamation Sage // Requires to out manoeuvre MoM to take out Revoker.
Kolaghan's Command // Could target both MoM and Revoker, but the most likely scenario is that they will protect Revoker while sacrificing MoM. So this would require a follow on play.
Pithing Needle // Shut of MoM

If you really fear this play then first thought would be to include bigger removal:
Damnation // probably the preferred choice, since this also takes out Eldrazi boards. But kills your own board.
Chandra, Flamecaller: Sweeps and kills, if not answered... Yes, yes, RR and CMC 6 is a pain. But running double Mountain, 2x Stormbreath Dragon's and a pair off balls will improve any matchup playing something white (looking at you Miracles...).
Black Sun's Zenith // Dodges Prelate, and shuffles back making it sort of recurrable. But also hits your creatures.
Virtue's Ruin // Meta specific and @3.
Dread of Night // Very specific and only takes care of the MoM problem.
Dark Blast // Also very specific, but is @1, recurrable and instant speed.
Lightning Bolt, Death Mark, Funeral Charm, Dismember, Disfigure // Specific spot removal could be added in specific meta's, But i do not believe that bringing in spot removal from the board is better then either sweepers, permanents, recurrable or tutorable cards (for NicFit at least).


Did you forgot Engineered plague naming Human ?
Engineered explosives seems a good option too !

[Bobmans]

I did not forgot, I merely Explored some options here.
Also i did Mind the Revoker on deed.

[Navsi]

Took Nyx Fit today. 5 rounds.

1: Storm
I don't get enough interaction, and lose. Game 2 I don't find a Leyline. I strip his hand with Therapies but don't have a clock or a lock piece and eventually he goes off any kills me anyway.
0-1

2: BUG Shardless/Countertop
I mull to 5, but Deed keeps him away for a bit. He resolves three Ancestral Visions and eventually I can't find a second deed and die. Game 2 I quickly kill him with Nissa and misc threats. Game 3 I get close, but can't find a Deed to stop his Goyf + Agent beatdown and eventually fold.
0-2

3: Deathblade
Deed kills TNNs. I wipe out his stuff with Deed a lot, and Therapy Batterskulls out of his hand. Rector and Veteran are Moats for quite a while.

4: UB Reanimator
Game 1 he makes Griselbrand on turn one. Game 2 I have Leyline of the Void into Spirit of the Labyrinth into Humility + Starfield. Game 3 I have double Surgical Extraction into hardcast Leyline into Living Plane + Doomwake Giant.

5: 4C Loam
We grind away for ages - I eventually stabilize with a Faith's Fetters on his LOTV and Deed for Knight + Deathrite, but eventually get ground out by Punishing Fire + more Deathrite Shaman and can't find another Deed. Scavenging Ooze is great against Starfield. Game 2 I sweep his stuff and Doomwake his lands, and game 3 (with 6 minutes on the clock) I get a fast Starfield (Rec-Saged), follow it up with Doomwake, then make Living Plane again leaving him with only a 10/10 KOTR, which I chump with my lands for a couple turns while I kill him.

- A maindeck answer to Storm would be nice, like Leyline of Sanctity. Might just be a matchup we accept we fold to though.
- This deck kind of wants 4 Deeds. Seriously it's even more disgusting than normal here. We have a lot more explosive starts due to the 3x Tower setup.
- Zenith is often a bit underwhelming in the deck, unless you actively need a Witness. Fetching Eidolon, or Courser if you have Top, is nice but not really very impressive. A stronger pressure target might be something to look into.

[RobNC]

Sanctum prelate@2 doesn't stop Pernicious deed, it's CCM is 3 !



Did you forgot Engineered plague naming Human ?
Engineered explosives seems a good option too !

Engineered Plague is even easier for D&T to beat than Dread of Night. Naming human does nothing for Revoker, SFM, Flickerwisp, or Serra Avenger (and I'm not sure if it affects tokens from Gideon or Elspeth), and many of the humans are also 2/2 or 3/2 (THC, Mirran Crusader, Sanctum Prelate) that still survive.

[gth842s]

Taking Sneak Fit for another spin at a weekly tomorrow. Does anyone have sideboarding principles or advice for the following matchups?

Aluren
Aggro-Loam
Lands

They're all relatively common in my meta, and I find them difficult to beat with Junk Fit.

[square_two]

Taking Sneak Fit for another spin at a weekly tomorrow. Does anyone have sideboarding principles or advice for the following matchups?

Aluren
Aggro-Loam
Lands

They're all relatively common in my meta, and I find them difficult to beat with Junk Fit.

Hm, Blood Moon could help out with those? I can't remember how many basics Aluren plays though. Lands does feel quite difficult for Jund.

[fireiced]

Went 5-0 in a local paper league. Completely dodged my friend on TES :tongue:

M1, BR Reanimator - Win 2-1
G1, T1 Sire of Insanity Herp Derp
G2 & 3, Faerie Macabre did a lot of work and is immune to Collective Brutality Discard mode.

Sideboarding
- 1 Prime Time - 1 Sigarda - 1 Swagtusk - 1 Meren - 3 Pernicious Deed - 1 Explorer
+ 1 PTE +1 Thoughtseize + 3 Surgical Extraction +2 Faerie Macabre + 1 Ethersworn Canonist

M2, Miracles - Win 1-0
G1, Slugfest as usual. Held a Liliana since my starting 7 and protected her all the way to her ultimate with Atraxa ticking her 2x as fast up after getting the all clear to resolve her like at turn 11.

M3, RUG Delver - Win 2-1
G1, Won the die roll, T1 Therapy for Stifle hitting 1 and proceeded to ram Explorers into known 2x Fows in his hand before Deathrite took over.
G2, Delver starts on the play, Mongoose into Stifle -> Waste on my Bayou -> Stifle 2nd fetch and I died with 1 Karakas :really:
G3, Kept a 6 Lander with 1 Decay ala SNAPKEEP, he wasted time on my lands while I drew business like DRS and had the Decay for his lone Delver.

Sideboarding
- 1 Prime Time - 1 Sigarda - 1 Meren - 1 Pridemage
+ 1 PTE + 2 Carpet of Flowers + 1 Pithing Needle

M4, Shardless BUG - Win 1-0
G1, He conceded because he was going to deck out and I had the 2 Towers engine going. Seems like having cantrips and visions is a liability :tongue: I basically looped Eternal Witness for Pernicious Deeds with 2 Towers and he can never muster a force to kill me off with me at 3 life. Lily did massive work picking off Strixes and Nissa was on 5/5 blocking duty.

M5, Burn - Win 2-1
G1, Did not know he was burn and kept a hand of DRS, Fetch, Fetch, PTE, Top, Lily & E. Wit. Goblin Guide into Searing Blood for DRS into triple Bolts/Chain = dead me.
G2 & 3, Fetch the Basics, rush for lifegain, whomp whomp dead Burn player. I stole G3 with Ethersworn Canonist punishing him for poor sequencing, he Lava Spiked me first and was unable to suspend Rift Bolt allowing me 1 more turn to GSZ Swagtusk to put the game away.

Sideboarding
- 1 Prime Time - 1 Sigarda - 1 Tireless Tracker - 1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Reclamation Sage + 2 Ethersworn Canonist + 1 Garruk Relentless

Decklist as per below

22 Lands
2 Plains
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island

18 Creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Khruphix
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Atraxa, Praetor's Voice
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

2 Planessalkers
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

18 Other
2 Sensei Divining Top
2 Path to Exile
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

15 Sideboard
1 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Tegg
1 Garruk Relentless

[Echelon]

But one crucial factor here is: how did you get in this situation in the first place? What error on our side gave so much room for our opponent to develop a board like this? Aside from the obvious losing the dice roll and having to mull into an opponent's god hand.

Probably something like "Meh, shit happens".

Thing is though - you can still win from this. Just pressure the shit out of them. You don't need to answer everything your opponent plays with removal.

[Navsi]

I think I'm going to give Sigarda, Heron's Grace a shot in Starfield.

- Zenithable pressure (something the deck seriously needs, not being able to search up anything with 3+ power really is a problem)
- Not hexproof, but a 5-mana 4/5 is already immune to everything except Swords - and we already do well against decks that run Swords
- Has actual text against Storm
- Still ruins Liliana just like old Sigarda
- Easier on the manabase
- Sweet art

[Echelon]

- Has actual text against Storm

But still costs 5 or 6 mana to get on the field. High CMCs should be the first thing you cut vs. a deck like that.

With that out of the way, the only upside you list for it over old Sigarda is that it's easier on the manabase.

That means you choose a slower, more easily removable (Karakas is also a thing) clock b/c it has WG in its manacost rather than WWG.

[Navsi]

But still costs 5 or 6 mana to get on the field. High CMCs should be the first thing you cut vs. a deck like that?

With that out of the way, the only upside you list for it over old Sigarda is that it's easier on the manabase.

That means you choose a slower, more easily removable (Karakas is also a thing) clock b/c it has WG in its manacost rather than WWG.

What you cut isn't really relevant, I'm talking about maindeck here since there's obviously way better Storm hate in the sideboard. Also I find that high CMCs generally mostly stay in because they're usually reasonable finishers once you stabilize, whereas spot removal does absolutely nothing and is first to go. Starfield is also a bit better at actually resolving high-cmc spells early just because it runs 3 Phyrexian Towers.

She's a faster clock if you have more than one card in your graveyard, to be fair.

There are very few tutorable cards which are:
- relevant against Storm
- remotely useful against fair decks
- not Gaddock Teeg because he turns off the deck

Also providing a clock (which the deck lacks) is a nice bonus, but not really the main point. Do you have any better suggestions for a card to put in that slot? Because I don't.

[Echelon]

There are very few tutorable cards which are:
- relevant against Storm
- remotely useful against fair decks
- not Gaddock Teeg because he turns off the deck

Also providing a clock (which the deck lacks) is a nice bonus, but not really the main point. Do you have any better suggestions for a card to put in that slot? Because I don't.

Dude, 5/6 mana cards aren't relevant against Storm. You're dead well before you'll ever be able to cast it, especially during G1 (when you don't have your SB hate yet).

Then what is it you're trying to accomplish with this particular slot? Is it to provide a GSZ'able finisher, to improve your G1 vs. Storm, to do something else?

I'm sure we can come up with something if we can figure out what we need that slot to do.

[Navsi]

Dude, 5/6 mana cards aren't relevant against Storm. You're dead well before you'll ever be able to cast it, especially during G1 (when you don't have your SB hate yet).

Then what is it you're trying to accomplish with this particular slot? Is it to provide a GSZ'able finisher, to improve your G1 vs. Storm, to do something else?

I'm sure we can come up with something if we can figure out what we need that slot to do.

Most Nic Fit lists have at least something of a chance against Storm in G1 with Therapy into pressure, potentially with Teeg or Deathrite. Starfield builds have Therapy all the same, but are low on Deathrites and usually don't have a clock anywhere near as fast, so your game 1 is even worse than normal. I think the matchup would be okay (as in, 30-35% instead of 10%) with a better way of locking them down game 1. What the deck really wants is a Nether Void, but frankly I don't think I'm going to be able to find or afford one any time soon.

Separately, the deck currently has a problem where Zenith is really awkward because it doesn't find a finisher. It still has utility and stabilization, but nothing that applies pressure, particularly onto a relatively empty board. Sigarda Host of Herons is the obvious choice here but she doesn't have much synergy with the rest of the deck. I've been trying to see if there isn't a better option available, but there doesn't seem to be much out there.

Sigarda, Heron's Grace happens to fill both slots reasonably well.

[Echelon]

Except it doesn't. There are faster/more resilient finishers and because of its CMC it's a non-factor vs. Storm.

Sounds to me like you need to cut a card so you can have 1 dedicated slot for hate and 1 dedicated finisher.

Teeg (as much as I hate the card) is your best bet for G1 vs. Storm, as for clocks it's either Verdurous Gearhulk (kills in 2/3 swings, dominates the ground and at least ignores Karakas) or good old Sigarda.

[Navsi]

Except it doesn't. There are faster/more resilient finishers and because of its CMC it's a non-factor vs. Storm.

Sounds to me like you need to cut a card so you can have 1 dedicated slot for hate and 1 dedicated finisher.

I think you're overestimating Storm's speed. A reasonable Therapy usually leaves them casting a couple cantrips and going off on turn 3-4 in my experience. A Zenith or Veteran and a Tower/therapy gets us to 5/6 mana on a similar turn number. SHG is definitely worse as a finisher, but turning Zenith into a lock piece is not a negligible advantage, given that getting a Rector trigger is only slightly easier than casting Zenith@5.

As far as pure hate goes:
Leyline of Sanctity is probably too niche for a maindeck slot
Curse of Exhaustion is playable but might be a bit too irrelevant elsewhere
Nether Void does everything we'd want
Dovescape is like Nether Void, but harder to hardcast. Great with Starfield or Doomwake, though.


For finishers:
Sigarda1 is naturally great
Nissa, Vital Force is awesome but can't be Zenithed
Chromanticore does stuff with Rector and Starfield, but can't be hardcast
Archetype of Endurance does lots of things but is too expensive to reasonably Zenith
Tireless Tracker is a great CA engine, but relatively killable. We already have tons of CA engines.

[Echelon]

I think you're overestimating Storm's speed. A reasonable Therapy usually leaves them casting a couple cantrips and going off on turn 3-4 in my experience. A Zenith or Veteran and a Tower/therapy gets us to 5/6 mana on a similar turn number. SHG is definitely worse as a finisher, but turning Zenith into a lock piece is not a negligible advantage, given that getting a Rector trigger is only slightly easier than casting Zenith@5.

You're overestimating your lists ability to produce so much mana combined w/ the right amount of disruption at the right time and having all the cards needed to make that happen.

You're @slightly >40% possibility to have CT (which may or may not matter at all), the odds of having CT/PT + Veteran Explorer + GSZ/Sigarda + no discard from your opponent are just so atrocious you can't try to rely on it. It's basically Magical Christmas Land (and last I checked your name is not Ricardio, so it isn't going to happen). Thinking that line is a realistic representation for G1 is just sticking your head in the sand.

[Navsi]

You're overestimating your lists ability to produce so much mana combined w/ the right amount of disruption at the right time and having all the cards needed to make that happen.

You're @slightly >40% possibility to have CT (which may or may not matter at all), the odds of having CT/PT + Veteran Explorer + GSZ/Sigarda + no discard from your opponent are just so atrocious you can't try to rely on it. It's basically Magical Christmas Land (and last I checked your name is not Ricardio, so it isn't going to happen). Thinking that line is a realistic representation for G1 is just sticking your head in the sand.

You have about 20% odds of getting a sac outlet, a Vet/Zenith, and a Sigarda/Zenith#2 in your top 9 cards. It's not great, but it's better than most of the other options. Getting an enchantment like Nether Void out would require either Vet+Sac outlet+the 1-of in hand, or Vet+Outlet+Rector(+ second Therapy unless you had Tower), which isn't exactly much greater.

A lot of the time you're relying on the Storm deck to not have a good opening hand, or get some good Therapies in. If neither of those thing happen you're going to lose no matter what, but it's good to have a way of actually winning the game if your opponent doesn't find the gas they need or gets wrecked, rather than just presenting a clock and hoping they can't get there.

[Arsenal]

Played in Grand Prix Milwaukee Legacy Challenge this past Saturday. $25 entry, prizes based on final record. 5-0 gets 540 prize wall tickets, 3-2 gets 40 prize wall tickets (for perspective, a sealed booster box is 360 tickets). I'm from Milwaukee, so have a fairly good gauge on what the Midwest likes to play (FAIRRRRR), so instead of running a Force of Will deck like Shardless or Miracles, I opted to just go over the top of other fair stuff by killing people with Siege Rhino. This is the 75 I registered:

Main

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino
4 Veteran Explorer

1 Garruk Relentless

3 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Plains
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs

Side

2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Choke


Round 1: Mono Red Sneak (2-1)

G1 My opponent receives a game 1 loss due to tardiness, so we go to game 2 with him on play. I spot a Seething Song and SSG from him while shuffling, so I put him on Dragon Stompy.

G2 My opponent plays Mountain, pass. I play Forest, Vet. He plays Mountain, pass. I play Swamp, attack for 1, pass. I'm holding a Plain and Decay in hand, so I feel great that I have all three colors through basic lands + a removal spell for any of his things. Unfortunately, he proceeds to chain rituals into Sneak Attack, sneak Griselbrand, draw 14, find Emmy, swing for lethal. -4 StP, -2 Veteran, -3 Deed, +2 Canonist, +4 Seize, +1 Teeg, +1 Pulse, +1 Rec Sage.

G3 I mull to 5 on the play. My hand is Seize, Cabal, dual, Canonist, GSZ. I keep, scry 1, bottom the non-land card on top. I turn 1 Seize his mana while seeing more mana and like 3 monsters. He lays Mountain, pass. I draw into my 2nd land, allowing me to Therapy away his other mana, leaving him with lands and Monsters, but no mana and he had zero Sneak/Breach. I then proceed to drop Canonist, draw into more land so I can GSZ for Teeg, then proceed to beat him to death with green idiots.


Round 2: Burn (2-1)

G1 My opponent is one of my gaming buddies that plays at the LGS, so we were basically just playing like it was our weekly event. I knew he was on Burn, he knew I had audibled to Nic Fit 10 seconds before event began, hahaha. He does his thing and gets me to 1 life before I can stabilize with Siege Rhino and Thragtusk. We talk about it we think he could've won had he decided to Rift Bolt my face instead of DRS on his t2, but it would've been close. -4 Veteran, +2 Decay, +2 Canonist.

G2 He burns me out before I can stabilize. If you've ever played against Burn, you know the feeling. :frown:

G3 Variance rears it's ugly head and my opponent keeps a hand of 4 spells, 3 land, then proceeds to draw TWELVE lands in a row. I somehow draw about 11 lands as well, so this game goes on forever until I can finally find a threat. Wasn't much of a game, unfortunately.


Round 3: Junk (2-1)

G1 He's on the play and plays Marsh Flats into DRS. I look at my hand of Cabal, Deed, lands, and not much else. I Therapy him, name "Liliana of the Veil" and he just looks at me then proceeds to bin 2x Liliana and shows me a hand of SFM, Goyf, Bob. We laugh about it and I'm like "well, your fetchland and turn 1 play made me think you were Junk of some flavor, and I can't deal with a t2 Liliana, sooooo...." I proceed to Deed him into oblivion and draw into dumb fatties. -4 Veteran, -2 Cabal. +2 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 Decay, +1 Rec Sage, +1 M Pulse.

G2 Ultra grindy game. Lots of back and forth, seeing me rip runner, runner, runner in order to stay alive versus his onslaught of dude, dude, dude, dude. Very tight game, but he gets there. I didn't feel close to stabilizing, but man this was a good game.

G3 Another ultra grinder. There is a sequence of events where I get to M Pulse his 2 Goyf, then because he needed to tap his 2x DRS in order to cast Council's Judgment on my Rhino, I can GSZ for E Wit, get M Pulse back, then M Pulse both his DRS. He hardcasts Batterskull, I get to topdeck GSZ and find Rec Sage to blow it up. I land a Rhino shortly thereafter and he concedes. Very good opponent and enjoyable match.


Round 4: Aggro Loam (2-1)

G1 My opponent is yet another buddy from the LGS, so we go into round 4 knowing I'm favored. Game 1 isn't really close as he's unable to mount enough pressure before Deed wipes his board and I get to GSZ for Sigarda, ending the game as he literally has no way to kill her. -2 Therapy, +2 Decay.

G2 Long, grindy game (of course) that saw his Bob draw him about 6 extra cards. He eventually hits 6 mana and it able to cast Chandra Flamecaller to kill me with hasty Elementals.

G3 Repeat of G1 essentially where we just lay lands, I kill a couple things (Aggro Loam very threat light) and it reaches late game where my bombs and GSZ are just better than his.


Round 5: Colorless Eldrazi (1-2)

G1 Yet another LGS buddy. We agree to play to it out as there is an Eternal Weekend Bye on the line. I start verrrry strong and get to accelerate, but draw no gas while he eventually draws into dude, dude, dude, dude that I can't answer. This game felt bad due to how tremendous my start was. -4 Cabal, +2 Decay, +1 M Pulse, +1 Rec Sage.

G2 This game boiled down to Garruk Relentless and nothing else. He literally could not find a way to push past the Wolf token army to kill Garruk (saw 0 Smasher, thankfully). Some people run 6 mana Sorin in this slot, but I prefer 4 mana Garruk or even 5 mana Nissa, Vital Force.

G3 Very back and forth, with me killing many of his dudes, and we're both in topdeck mode. He draws a bit better and kills me with big dudes. Good match nonetheless.


I finish 4-1 for 2nd place, walk away with 450 prize wall tickets and happy that my LGS had two players in finals (me + Eldrazi). I was happy that my meta call was correct and that I faced pretty much all fair decks and was rewarded. Deck felt great, although I'm looking hard at Garruk Relentless and Meren slots; 2 flex that might be something else moving forward (Recurring Nightmare and Nissa, Vital Force, maybe).

[Ricardio]

Nice finish.

Why 4 swords to plowshare? Argument against path?

[Arsenal]

I think there are pros/cons for both. I generally dislike giving my opponent access to mana as evidenced at how often I boarded out Veteran. I think I care less about him gaining 2-4 life from his Bob, Shardless Agent, Clique, Goyf, whatever than accelerating him a turn into Jace I'm unprepared for while I'm still slowly trying to get off ground and stabilize. Obviously I understand how awesome Path is when they run out of basics to fetch, but that means I've likely already popped a Veteran or two, suggesting mid-late game when I should be building momentum regardless of StP/Path.

EDIT: The card I really want to discuss is Nissa, Vital Force in the planeswalker slot. Hits hard when no blockers in way, protects itself with a 5/5 on empty board, returns any of our pretty bomby permanents to hand, and it ultimates turn after it hits play, generating pretty crazy advantage. Fetchland = draw 2 cards.

[Navsi]

I've taken Nissa a few times now, in Sneak, Starfield and Atraxa builds. She's always been excellent and hasn't once been unimpressive. A couple times she's eaten a Maelstrom Pulse, or a Liliana -2s the land and she gets killed by an 8/8 KOTR, but that's still fine. The rest of the time she absolutely takes over the game.

Being a hasty 5/5 if you need to apply pressure is seriously exactly what a lot of Nic Fit builds need. Especially if you aren't in red, she's a real clock which kills planeswalkers too.

[Brael]

Nissa is great, I've started running her over Sigarda.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, I think I'll replace Garruk Relentless with Nissa, Vital Force. I think Meren will become 3rd Rhino, or if there's another really good 3cmc green dude I'm forgetting, any suggestions would help. 2nd E Wit?

[Navsi]

Yeah, I think I'll replace Garruk Relentless with Nissa, Vital Force. I think Meren will become 3rd Rhino, or if there's another really good 3cmc green dude I'm forgetting, any suggestions would help. 2nd E Wit?

Tireless Tracker is awesome.

[Arsenal]

omg, hahaha, completely forgot about that card. THANK YOU.

[Echelon]

@Arsenal: Congrats on the result!

On PtE/StP - I understand that you don't want to give your opponent basics, but the MUs where PtE shines most are the ones where your stuff is bigger than your opponents anyway, so why care? You also draw a lot more cards than they do (when running stuff like Tracker, that is) so you're the one who gets the most out of it, not your opponent. Heck, vs. D&T it's even somewhat of a nice trap. Lure them into dumping their hand, then sweep their board w/ a Pernicious Deed and just run away with the game from there.

[Navsi]

On PtE/StP - I understand that you don't want to give your opponent basics, but the MUs where PtE shines most are the ones where your stuff is bigger than your opponents anyway, so why care? You also draw a lot more cards than they do (when running stuff like Tracker, that is) so you're the one who gets the most out of it, not your opponent. Heck, vs. D&T it's even somewhat of a nice trap. Lure them into dumping their hand, then sweep their board w/ a Pernicious Deed and just run away with the game from there.

I've found that Path is occasionally awkward, particularly in the D&T matchup, assume they are playing around Deed (if they aren't, you're gonna win whether you have Path or Swords). IMO if you're playing a Rhinos build or otherwise trying to be more agressive about ending the game, you probably want Path, but if you're playing a more controlling build with planeswalkers and other incremental value, you're likely to have inevitability over the long term in a matchup and so Swords has basically no downside.

[Echelon]

I've found that Path is occasionally awkward, particularly in the D&T matchup, assume they are playing around Deed (if they aren't, you're gonna win whether you have Path or Swords).

I don't see why StP would be less awkward in that situation. Having a land or life has nothing to do with overextending. Heck, one might argue that StP might be more awkward b/c giving them life might just give them the time they need whereas a land might not do shit.

[Navsi]

I don't see why StP would be less awkward in that situation. Having a land or life has nothing to do with overextending. Heck, one might argue that StP might be more awkward b/c giving them life might just give them the time they need whereas a land might not do shit.

D&T plays a lot of mana sinks (Port, equipment, Recruiter chains) and also appreciates being able to use its 'natural' land drops for Wastelands. I assumed you were saying that giving them land would encourage them to play their hand out more.

Giving them time isn't something I've found to come up often. If you're attacking their life total, you probably have the game under control and are closing things out. Usually by that point an additional turn isn't something that is going to make much difference (and you're often hitting them for enough that the 1-3 life Swords gives them isn't buying them a turn anyway).

Basically, Swords makes it harder for you to finish them once you've stabilized, but finishing them when you have control of the game is easy anyway.
Path makes it harder to stabilize in the first place because it grants them increased ability to apply pressure.

IMO Being able to more reliably stabilize is more important than having a faster clock once we've done so, because stabilizing a turn late often means we're dead, whereas killing them on turn 11 rather than turn 12 often makes no difference at all.

[Echelon]

Meh, still think it's not all that bad. But I've been mainly facing a rather oddball D&T build lately (also runs some sol lands and Thoughtknot Seers).

The only thing I usually struggle with though is Batterskull. But even that is perfectly beatable.

[RobNC]

Extra mana really helps D&T in the early game, but late game I likely don't have much left in hand and the extra mana will just sit there unless I have multiple Rishadan Ports out. When playing D&T against Nic Fit I'm usually trying to Plow the Explorers instead of getting them to die because I know the extra mana will benefit Nic Fit far more than it will benefit D&T, unless I'm mana screwed and drawing nothing but gas that I can't cast.

[Echelon]

When playing D&T against Nic Fit I'm usually trying to Plow the Explorers instead of getting them to die because I know the extra mana will benefit Nic Fit far more than it will benefit D&T, unless I'm mana screwed and drawing nothing but gas that I can't cast.

This.

[Navsi]

Extra mana really helps D&T in the early game, but late game I likely don't have much left in hand and the extra mana will just sit there unless I have multiple Rishadan Ports out. When playing D&T against Nic Fit I'm usually trying to Plow the Explorers instead of getting them to die because I know the extra mana will benefit Nic Fit far more than it will benefit D&T, unless I'm mana screwed and drawing nothing but gas that I can't cast.

This is also true.

I'm of the opinion that a less worrying early game is more important than a more efficient lategame, particularly since we are the 'control' deck and D&T is the 'beatdown' in the matchup and we can probably expect to win if the game goes late.

IMO if you're in a situation where Path > Swords, the game has gone late enough that you should win anyway.

Also, hitting your own creature with Swords for lifegain is occasionally relevant against combo decks and/or Burn. :cool:

[Arsenal]

Yeah, I mean, we board out Veteran A LOT, so running Path to Exile just becomes awkward postboard. Also, baiting Wasteland with a naked Savannah (while holding like 2-3 more lands) might mean difference between them being stuck on 2 lands through first 4 turns vs you Pathing their DRS and them just fetching up a basic and continuing on with their life like nothing. Idk, like I said before, pros/cons to each given specific circumstance.

[Ricardio]

This is also true.

I'm of the opinion that a less worrying early game is more important than a more efficient lategame, particularly since we are the 'control' deck and D&T is the 'beatdown' in the matchup and we can probably expect to win if the game goes late.

IMO if you're in a situation where Path > Swords, the game has gone late enough that you should win anyway.

Also, hitting your own creature with Swords for lifegain is occasionally relevant against combo decks and/or Burn. :cool:

Most legacy decks play 2 or less basics which means when we do the thing our deck does, sac vet, they have no basics left. Point Path.

Rhino trigger helixes the opponent and is our primary threat in W/x Nic fit. Gaining our opp life is the opposite of winning. Point Path.

Against delver decks and greedy manabases, path is beyond free. Point Path.

On the off chance we have to, we can path a creature to get a basic since that is more relevant than facing burn and having to swords it. Point Path.

I can understand the lower to the ground SFM build running swords instead.

Having a mindset like: if path is better than swords, we are already winning is incorrect. Of the few decks that can benefit off of us pathing over swords, even less can do anything with the mana that isn't dumpster'd by our EDH cards.

We are a path deck. Make our opponents pay the cost of multiple fetches with infinite rhino triggers, if they cant beat the bodies, they get trampled.
*let the bodies hit the floor*

[Arianrhod]

I only very rarely board out Vet, actually -- Miracles is the only one off the top of my head where it's common practice to board them out. There's probably a couple more matchups where they get boarded or shaved, but I can't think of them at the moment. I leave them in vs DnT, not sure what other matchups are questionable.

[Arsenal]

I board them out a bunch as they're fairly dead topdecks in long grinders, which is what the vaaaaast majority of postboard games turn into as we're both just overloading on removal and interaction. Same principle behind boarding out discard spells vs. the ultra grind. I do leave them in versus some matchups like Eldrazi, but in general, they're the first cards I look to for cuts postboard.

[square_two]

I only very rarely board out Vet, actually -- Miracles is the only one off the top of my head where it's common practice to board them out. There's probably a couple more matchups where they get boarded or shaved, but I can't think of them at the moment. I leave them in vs DnT, not sure what other matchups are questionable.

High Tide :laugh:

...

But I do agree, I hardly ever board out Vets. Miracles plus any other primarily controlling blue deck that has access to a lot of basics, where Carpets can come in to replace them. Played against a very controlling Stoneblade list last night that had Restoration Angel, Venser, Cliques, Notion Thief...did not want to accelerate them at all.

[Arsenal]

In the super grindy matchups that will inevitably go long, why are you guys keeping Veterans in? We play 21-23 lands, some number of DRS, 4 GSZ grab Dryad; we're going to hit our land drops and cast our bombs just fine. The opponent is overloading on interaction and removal for our big, dumb stuff... and we are too (boarding in Decays, Pulse, K Grip, Rec Sage, etc). Veteran is like the deadest of dead topdecks and doesn't do much on turn 11 when your opponent is ripping removal and gas and we're ripping... Veteran? Therapy? These cards are terrible postboard (Therapy defensible to a degree I suppose).

[Arianrhod]

In the super grindy matchups that will inevitably go long, why are you guys keeping Veterans in? We play 21-23 lands, some number of DRS, 4 GSZ grab Dryad; we're going to hit our land drops and cast our bombs just fine. The opponent is overloading on interaction and removal for our big, dumb stuff... and we are too (boarding in Decays, Pulse, K Grip, Rec Sage, etc). Veteran is like the deadest of dead topdecks and doesn't do much on turn 11 when your opponent is ripping removal and gas and we're ripping... Veteran? Therapy? These cards are terrible postboard (Therapy defensible to a degree I suppose).

See, I board out Therapy in those situations (Stoneblade being an exception because Therapy is great there while Vet is bad). Vet is still card advantage for us, and it's still tempo in the early to midgame. Even turn 6+ there's likely to still be basics in our deck that we can thin out. Plus, if you do happen to get one to go off early, it can break open the game into a degenerate board state before the opponent is set up and ready to deal with it. Consider Jund: they're likely to have 2 basics (1 trigger worth), and they're pretty grindy. Would you rather have Vet or Therapy in postboard? It's very unlikely you board out 8 cards vs Jund (or have 8 to bring in, for that matter). I'd rather have the extra ramp and card advantage than a literal do-nothing -- any cards Jund has in hand midgame will come from Bobs, or Sylvans and will get used immediately or pitched to Liliana.

Shardless is much the same. They have Visions, yes, but usually when their Visions goes off they just play everything they draw anyway. Vet, on the other hand, is a great way for us to keep up in virtual cards and allow us to slam progressively more powerful haymakers that they MUST answer. Sure, they likely can answer the first couple -- but if we don't accelerate into threats vs Shardless, they'll assemble Force+blue+Pulse+Decay in hand with Jace x Liliana in play and we won't be able to do anything.

I don't disagree with the thought process (board out lategame do-nothings in favor of gas), but I think that you're targeting the wrong lategame do-nothing. Therapy is worse vs basically every non-stoneforge grind deck than Vet is, by a lot.

[Navsi]

Maybe I'm leaning towards Swords over Path because I'm also leaning away from Siege Rhino. Both those cards seem to me like we're trying to be the beatdown more and out tempo our opponent / set up a fast clock, which just isn't where I think this deck wants to be at all.

[square_two]

Thank you sirs for this discussion. I rarely board out Therapies but probably need to start doing so against these grindier decks. Any others that warrant taking out some number of Therapies?

In the sneak list, any explosive start does have the ability to quickly finish a game. That plus the lack of Arbor is reason to keep some number of Vets in even in grindy matchups. Honestly I don't have that much to bring in against stuff like Shardless. (Painful Truths, From the Slaughter?, Rec Sage?, Pyroclasm?, Carpets?)

[Jain_Mor]

@Aresnal, Liliana of the Veil. If they play LotV, then I keep them in to troll her hard. For example, against shardless and Jund I side out 4 therapies but keep 4 vets in.

Also some people don't like attacking into Vet, so he can act like a mini moat against creature decks while you hit your land drops.

I also play equipment though, so my vets can become threats.

[sdematt]

Most legacy decks play 2 or less basics which means when we do the thing our deck does, sac vet, they have no basics left. Point Path.

Rhino trigger helixes the opponent and is our primary threat in W/x Nic fit. Gaining our opp life is the opposite of winning. Point Path.

Against delver decks and greedy manabases, path is beyond free. Point Path.

On the off chance we have to, we can path a creature to get a basic since that is more relevant than facing burn and having to swords it. Point Path.

I can understand the lower to the ground SFM build running swords instead.

Having a mindset like: if path is better than swords, we are already winning is incorrect. Of the few decks that can benefit off of us pathing over swords, even less can do anything with the mana that isn't dumpster'd by our EDH cards.

We are a path deck. Make our opponents pay the cost of multiple fetches with infinite rhino triggers, if they cant beat the bodies, they get trampled.
*let the bodies hit the floor*

I agree, but Swords has merit at 2 Rhinos or less, and in metagames where you feel your games are always close/lots of Burn where you might need that tiny, tiny bit of life gain. However, having played the deck since Rhino came out and a bit before, I really, really like Path.

Also, I'm coming to Europe on Saturday.

Brussels for Sunday, Prague Sunday evening the 18th, Vienna 22nd to 26th, and Munich 26th to 30th.

[Ralf]

I usually rarely board Veteran out:

- Miracle (at least 3)
- Storm (at least 2)
- S&T (at least 3)
- High Tide (here 4)

I'll keep them in against board position battles:
- Jund
- Shardless
- D&T
- Deathblade/Stoneblade


The only awkward MU is Burn where you can be tempted to cut them out BUT I have won many more games because of Veteran's triggers than lost because I have given them mountains to be sac'ed to Fireblast...
Just remember that ramping to be able to play your Rhino/Thragtusk in this MU is key. Not to mention that veteran feeds the ooze and blocks Goblin Guide/Monastery.

Also the neat trix against burn is to always go after the instant burn spells with your discard spells:
1) Fireblast
2) Lightning Bolt

[Arsenal]

I don't disagree with the thought process (board out lategame do-nothings in favor of gas), but I think that you're targeting the wrong lategame do-nothing. Therapy is worse vs basically every non-stoneforge grind deck than Vet is, by a lot.

I disagree. Hand checking the opponent to ensure your super bomb lives through their M Pulse that they've been clutching the last 3 turns is pretty relevant. Again, I'm banking on my opponent overloading on interaction and removal postboard. They're not just blindly jamming everything in their hand so we can just Deed them out of the game. They very likely will have relevant cards in hand on turn 8, some of which can just wreck us.

I do shave Therapy as well, but that's only after I've cut all of my Vets. Like, versus Shardless (I don't really factor Jund into meta consideration anymore, tbh), I'd consider boarding in 2 Decay, 1 M Pulse, 1 Rec Sage, 2 Choke, 2 Nihil Spellbomb. That's 8 cards. Even if I didn't consider the two weakest cards to board in (Spellbomb), that's still 6 cards. I'm cutting 4 Vets, 1 Teeg, 1 Therapy in that situation.

[sdematt]

Against other midrange, I might be tempted to cut Therapy since they are boarding out Force. I think especially if you're against Shardless, you're on the slam Sigarda and walkers plan, Deed the board when you can. Not saying boarding out Therapy is correct, it's just what I do. I like Vet so I can jump ahead of Shardless and get going with my tanks before they can stabilize, or to Deed for more, sooner.

[Arsenal]

How are you guys reliably triggering Vet when you're boarding out your Therapy? I know we have P Tower, and I guess incidental Deed activation, but 4 Vet/0 Therapy postboard doesn't seem like you're going to be doing much early game accelerating?

[Ralf]

How are you guys reliably triggering Vet when you're boarding out your Therapy? I know we have P Tower, and I guess incidental Deed activation, but 4 Vet/0 Therapy postboard doesn't seem like you're going to be doing much early game accelerating?

Tell me which one of your opponent's creatures for Shardless can attack through a veteran ?

[Arsenal]

None. But they get their basics to use on their turn first? And their attacking dude still lives? Vet much worse when opponent decides when it triggers instead of you deciding. Garruk Relentless not uncommon Shardless sb card. By all means, allow them to accel into their dumb walker before us.

Let me rephrase, outside of hoping opponent attacks into your Vet and they have stone cold nothing to do with that extra mana on same turn, how are YOU reliably triggering Vet. You, not the opponent.

[Ralf]

None. But they get their basics to use on their turn first? And their attacking dude still lives? Vet much worse when opponent decides when it triggers instead of you deciding. Garruk Relentless not uncommon Shardless sb card. By all means, allow them to accel into their dumb walker before us.

Let me rephrase, outside of hoping opponent attacks into your Vet and they have stone cold nothing to do with that extra mana on same turn, how are YOU reliably triggering Vet. You, not the opponent.

You don't trigger your vet. Period.
There is "no rush" for that. I usually take the control seat not the aggro one.

Jace's power is nowhere near Jace in Miracle.
Jace + Liliana is problematic but using smartly your decays in this MU is part of the deal.
Deed should cover the aggro side of shardless and decay should go after Lilis & what else.

The rest is a grind fest. The more PW/Huge Bombs/Recurring tools you pack the better:
Nissa is a bitch
Grave Titan is a monster
Sigarda is a slug
Garruk is also very powerful
Huntmaster is pretty decent

etc...

Shardless is just the best "Goyf" deck outta here.

[Arsenal]

I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

EDIT: Like, I'm truly trying to understand why we need Veteran postboard, assuming that our opponent is a grindy deck that you're anticipating lots of interaction, removal and over the top stuff coming in. If we're not popping it early and on our command (everyone says they cut Therapy postboard), we don't get full value from the "ramp" aspect of it as we're not casting a 5 drop on t3. If we're relying solely on popping it later game, when we've already laid our natural land drops, do we really "need" him? Like, I've laid 5 lands, but I guess I need 7?

[gth842s]

I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

I think what people are saying is this:

1) You may or may not take out all of your therapies, so there's still a chance to crack your own explorer early and break open the game with a degenerate threat.

2) In my experience, Shardless beats us in the early-mid game with Goyf beats when we haven't had enough Deeds and other removal to keep pace. VE in play means that they will either attack into it and ramp you forward into a big Deed or threat or they won't attack and you'll take over the late game. Without VE you remove a difficult choice for your opponent.

3) It's as much about the card advantage and improving your card quality as it is about acceleration. If you're cracking VE mid-late game, that's two more lands you won't draw or have to top away. Nic Fit's biggest late game strength (other than getting to hard-cast Titans) is our ability to get all the lands out of our deck - by the late game we're drawing nothing but gas.

[Arsenal]

Every list is different, but postboard I have access to 4 Decay, 4 Swords/Path, 1 M Pulse as spot removal for Shardless/Goyf. I don't share the same fear of turn 2 Goyf as others maybe? I don't need a pseudo-wall?

EDIT: Again, giving your opponent the choice is my very point. It isn't *that* difficult for them when they get to decide when Vet triggers. They glance at their hand and they're holding Jace/Garruk/Liliana (un-Deedable), they just swing with their dude. Now you either block and let them cast their dumb thing or eat the damage and Vet did literally nothing.

[Ralf]

I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

There is no "desperate" need of Vet postboard.

The question was "what to cut postboard ?":

1) You = I cut "Vet"
2) We = We cut "therapy"

Let me rephrase.

This is a board position battle. Can we agree on that ? Discard is usually weak in battle for board position.

Have you never lost after ripping an oppo's hand apart just to see him draw runner, runner, spot removal when you drew therapy, land, therapy ?

Veteran is a poor topdeck mid or late game but therapy is even worse. At least veteran impacts the board whether you want it or not:
- It chump blocks a goyf
- It triggers upon dying whether there are any basics left in your library or not, usually improving by inches your next draws
- It can feed a liliana's effect, preventing you from sac'ing a much more valuable creature
- It can attack and deal 1 damage to your oppo/PW

Shardless is a midrange deck that tends to kill you with goyfs/DRS/whatever creature.
Most lists do not even play a Jace anymore.

Worse: Therapy is bad without a mean to abuse of its flashback ability because your chances to miss in your first attempt are very very real.

Do you really want to start the game with such a disavantage against shardless because you missed ?

Math explanations:

- T1 Vet
- T2 Cabal -> Miss + Flashback -> touché

Where are we ?

You are down 2 cards (Vet + cabal). You have 4 lands.
Your opponent is down 1 card. He also has 4 lands (they usually play 1 swamp 1 forest and, except if they are unlucky or retarded, they are not going to fetch for basics against Nic Fit)

Are you going to win this game ? Maybe, maybe not but the shardless player has already an edge.

[Arsenal]

Postboard, I use Therapy as a way to hand check the opponent to ensure my bomb-in-waiting will survive; rarely will I fire it off t1 just because. If I drew my Nissa, Vital Force, but my Shardless opponent has been holding onto the same card for the last few turns, I'm putting him on M Pulse. I cast Therapy, name M Pulse. You're right, I might miss, he could just be holding a dual land as a bluff, then I proceed to slam Nissa and likely win the game. Now, he could definitely topdeck runner runner runner runner runner and win, but how does Vet change that?

And I wholly disagree that Shardless has dropped Jace: http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy&main=shardless+agent%3B+jace%2C+the+mind+sculptor%3B+tarmogoyf%3B+abrupt+decay&nomain=aluren&side=&noside=&strict=on

Idk, I've been on Nic Fit for quite some time (see my old BUG Pod posts a while back in this very thread) and have always boarded out Vets in majority of matchups. I've done well with my sb strategy. I've never really drawn a dead Therapy and thought to myself "maaaan I wish this had been Veteran Explorer", but have definitely had my bomb immediately answered because I had no way to protect it.

[Jain_Mor]

Usually they are far more afraid of what you can do with your mana than you are of them, so they don't attack which is the point.

For what it's worth, with your list I would sideboard like this:
- 1 teeg -4/2 therapy
+1 pulse +2 decay +2/0 choke

[Arsenal]

Hahaha, my thoughts exactly!


I do shave Therapy as well, but that's only after I've cut all of my Vets. Like, versus Shardless (I don't really factor Jund into meta consideration anymore, tbh), I'd consider boarding in 2 Decay, 1 M Pulse, 1 Rec Sage, 2 Choke, 2 Nihil Spellbomb. That's 8 cards. Even if I didn't consider the two weakest cards to board in (Spellbomb), that's still 6 cards. I'm cutting 4 Vets, 1 Teeg, 1 Therapy in that situation.

Also, I'm unsure why ppl are so afraid of t2 Goyf from Shardless? Like, postboard, aren't we running 8+ pieces of spot removal, 4 of which can't be countered? In my experience, their dudes aren't the issue, it's the AV and the walkers.

[square_two]

Hahaha, my thoughts exactly!



Also, I'm unsure why ppl are so afraid of t2 Goyf from Shardless? Like, postboard, aren't we running 8+ pieces of spot removal, 4 of which can't be countered?

Really depends on the list. I wouldn't assume most lists to have a full playset of decays in the 75.

My sneak list has 2 Decay, 3 PFire, 3 Deed as my removal in the main. Probably wouldn't consider Sidisi as "removal" even if she blocks well. In my side I have 1 To the Slaughter, 2 Pyroclasm as additional removal. Considering the PFires and Pyroclasms aren't going to be killing Goyf, then yea it's nice to have a Vet blocking the road. Since jund lacks both StP and this list lacks additional Decays, I have to rely further on chumping with Vet/EWitness/Empath in order to buy time to a good Deed or Sneak Attack win. PFires handle opposing planeswalkers quite well though, as well as the accompanying Delver/DRS/Stoneforge/etc. And elves. :laugh:

So it seems our lists could be fighting against grindy stuff in some different ways. Walkers don't scare me quite so much.

[Arsenal]

For the Junk lists, I thought 4 Decay in 75 was standard. Maybe I'm wrong.

Also, whoever said Shardless no longer runs Jace... man, I wish that were true. It most definitely is not. They still run Jace, sometimes even another copy in the sb!

[Jain_Mor]

I really think you're getting the wrong impression. People aren't afraid of T2 goyf. The general consensus is that Vet explorer is better in a matchup based around board states and not cards in hand than a cabal therapy is.

You have Thoughtseize in the side anyway, surely if you're taking out vets you should take out therapies too and replace them with TS? Since they always hit. (It's what I do against miracles)

[Arsenal]

You have Thoughtseize in the side anyway, surely if you're taking out vets you should take out therapies too and replace them with TS? Since they always hit.

Sure. My point is that in my build, I'm like super duper removal heavy postboard so I don't care about whatever little dudes my opponent has most games. I care about specific cards at specific moments. Vet does NOTHING for me postboard whereas discard still has some tangible value. And the argument that discard is bad because opponent can rip answer off top of deck is moot because Vet would do nothing in that spot either.

I mean, postboard, I'll have 4 Decay, 4 Swords/Path, 3 Deed, 1 M Pulse, 1 Rec Sage (blows up their Shardless, Baleful (big one) and maybe a random sb card they bring in like Cage), on top of our dudes just being bigger than theirs. I honestly only care about AV and their walkers and their answers to my bombs.

Strange that people have had such different results and findings. I basically just copied Logan's SCG Milwaukee list from this spring and reduced curve and upped removal count. Perhaps you guys care more about board states because I'm running like 2-4 more removal spells?

[Jain_Mor]

I'm also super duper removal heavy post board. Again, I do run SFM though, so vets have additional utility for me. As the primer says, you have your way and I have mine.

But yea, take out your therapies for TS, that should make your plan even better

Edit: I have noticed a lot of lists get extremely removal light recently, I don't know how you all survive.

[Arsenal]

Have you found Deed + SFM to be a bit of a nombo? Like, opponent presents just enough threats on board that incentivizes you to want to pop deed?

[Jain_Mor]

Ahh, this chestnut, I might be able to find some old good posts on this, but the search function on this site has much to be desired.

Essentially, your SFMs never really live very long, and SoFaI has CMC3, so you usually deed under it. You can also sequence your plays with them in mind, and if they use removal on your SFM or you take out multiple creatures with your desperation deed you're not down cards anyway.

So yes, it happens, but honestly very very rarely. And definitely no where near enough for me to consider it an issue (I was skeptic before I tried her too way back when)

Edit: SFM is also just another creature to sacrifice

[Arsenal]

How often do you "get" people game 1, making them think you're just Junk Aggro or Maverick (maybe they've seen GSZ, or DRS, etc)?

[Jain_Mor]

Lol, I wouldn't really say that's "getting" them, and would unlikely change their sideboard plan much.

A list for your curiosity and viewing pleasure.

4 Verdant
4 Windswept
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 Ewit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Thrun
1 Sigarda
1 Tusk
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 Therapy
4 Stp
4 Decay
2 Deed
2 SDT/Truths

SB
2 Needle / 2 Containment priest
3 Surgical Ext
4 TS
2 Spirit of the Labia
1 Teeg
1 Rec Sage
2 Deluge

[Brael]

Lots to say here, and lots of quotes to reply to. My league finished. I ended up only playing 11/12 matches, scheduling with hell (finals) week got me on the last match (I may still be able to get it in on xmage though, who knows... technically I still have a few more days) but it's looking like my record is 6-3-2. All the results will have to be tallied in order to see if I top 4'ed. I think the final draw because I couldn't get a match scheduled will knock me out though, I was counting on another win or two.

My losses were to 4c Delver in a pretty unlucky sequence of events that I can no longer recall and to Omniscience which managed to T2 Emrakul me twice, once through a Cabal Therapy on their Show and Tell, they simply topdecked another. The final loss was to Infect, I had some pretty nice hands but they were Inkmoth heavy and I'm realizing that they can easily overload Paths.

The draws were to Miracles and more recently to Painter's Servant. I just played the Painter's match the other day so it's fresh in my head. The match ended 1-1-1 with me taking game 1, losing game 2, and being a turn or two off of winning when turns ran out in G3. We played a followup match for fun which I managed to 2-0 so I think I'm pretty favored, but Blood Moon decks with the right start can really slow us down and my deck is the grindiest thing I've ever played, aside from BUG Pod. Put the two together and I honestly believe the deck is slower than Miracles.

The total field was
Win
Grixis Delver
4C Delver
Dragon Stompy
Eldrazi
Pox
Death and Taxes

Lose
Infect
4C Delver
Show and Tell

Draw
Miracles
Painter's Servant

Total result for games was 15-10-2.

So my thoughts on the list and the stuff I was trying out:

Dark Confidant - Loved Bob every time I cast him, he's great in the builds I've been running, also probably nuts in Rhino builds. I'm going to start running more. Probable 4 of. If you think Courser/Top is absurd, try Bob/Top active before your third draw.
Monastery Mentor - I comboed a couple times, but ultimately it's not consistent enough. It also requires a few more hoops to jump through with sequencing which uses up brainpower, and takes time, when using just a single Top for triggers. I'm going to cut them.
Ranger of Eos - I'm going to rate it as worse than Rhino but better than Meren as a 4 drop. It did what I wanted it to do though, which was to act as another source of CA on legs. The package was a little underwhelming though because I never used Safekeeper. Getting DRS, Endless One, and sometimes even Vets was great.
Endless One - It was good, and sometimes game winning but not what I would consider a staple. I think I'll leave it in for now, but I'm going to look for a replacement. Of note, it was my only playable card several times under Blood Moon locks, and in such situations was able to give me some ability to play the game.
Sylvan Safekeeper - Pretty terrible. This is a card that I know we dream about using a lot, as a GSZ'able Mother of Runes that doesn't have summoning sickness but the results just weren't there. This is getting cut.
Cavern of Souls - I was very happy with this. I was dead set on increasing my list to two of them post board replacing the Phyrexian Tower, but then I played a game where Tower ran away with the game and I'm back to undecided.
Tidehollow Sculler - This likely has to do with the fact that I've been getting T1-2'ed left and right the past couple weeks but I think this is too slow for what it's in for. I feel like I should either go all in on the slow card and play Lost Legacy, or try and go faster with Thoughtseize.


A way's back, page 387 I mentioned what I would like to change my deck to. I'll give it some more thought. I'm not 100% on if I'm attending GP Louisville but as of now I'm going to try assuming it's still possible to register come early January when I have a better idea of my schedule. That will also be the next time I get to play Magic most likely so I probably won't be getting anymore data before then.

Stuff I know I want though:
Blessed Alliance
More Bob
Nissa
Something big (thinking KotR)

For a while today I was throwing around the idea of moving to a straight GB list. Diabolic Edict is a potent removal spell (albeit strictly worse than Blessed Alliance) that can fill in for what Abrupt Decay misses and in some side games I've been testing, Nissa is more powerful than Sigarda. Combined those two things free the deck from white. I feel like a Punishing build overloads on the small removal (Fires/Decay) so Jund isn't the route I want to go down, even though I'm in love with Chandra, Flamecaller. Try as I might, I can't find a blue build that I'm in love with either despite really wanting to add Leovold and Trophy Mage as they lead to too many 3 drops. So I may play with green/black a bit.

Also, a question. Assuming I can tutor it (KotR, Crop Rotation, etc) what are the thoughts on Maze of Ith, or on land tutors in general? I'm thinking about just how far a toolbox could be pushed and a part of me really likes the idea of being able to tutor a removal spell. I like Crop Rotations synergy with Nissa, Towers, Courser, and Tracker too. This is one direction I'm considering for a straight GB list to buff up on the remove anything aspect a bit.


Yeah, I mean, we board out Veteran A LOT, so running Path to Exile just becomes awkward postboard. Also, baiting Wasteland with a naked Savannah (while holding like 2-3 more lands) might mean difference between them being stuck on 2 lands through first 4 turns vs you Pathing their DRS and them just fetching up a basic and continuing on with their life like nothing. Idk, like I said before, pros/cons to each given specific circumstance.

I think it depends on the meta. At a large tournament I favor Path. Locally though, everyone has started running a couple basics because of my deck and because Blood Moon is popular. I'm actually on the verge of switching to Swords to Plowshares because I don't like Path getting value.


I only very rarely board out Vet, actually -- Miracles is the only one off the top of my head where it's common practice to board them out. There's probably a couple more matchups where they get boarded or shaved, but I can't think of them at the moment. I leave them in vs DnT, not sure what other matchups are questionable.

I take mine out all the time, but this could have to do with the local meta. In fact, I devoted 5 slots in my sideboard specifically to alternate mana sources over my Vets. I take them out all the time, or atleast trim on them. But, I run a really low curve so I can get away with downgrading my ramp.


How are you guys reliably triggering Vet when you're boarding out your Therapy? I know we have P Tower, and I guess incidental Deed activation, but 4 Vet/0 Therapy postboard doesn't seem like you're going to be doing much early game accelerating?

Vets can block. Alternatively, when Vets are bad I keep alternate ramp sources in my sideboard to swap.


I guess I'm confused now. Everyone is like "keep Vet in postboard, cuz you'll be able to ramp so hard". Now you're saying that you shouldn't trigger Vet? And if you do, not until much, much later in the game when you've already naturally laid like 4-7 lands (I'm assuming you mean mid-late game when you say "no rush").

Then tell me... why am I so desperately in need of Vet postboard?

EDIT: Like, I'm truly trying to understand why we need Veteran postboard, assuming that our opponent is a grindy deck that you're anticipating lots of interaction, removal and over the top stuff coming in. If we're not popping it early and on our command (everyone says they cut Therapy postboard), we don't get full value from the "ramp" aspect of it as we're not casting a 5 drop on t3. If we're relying solely on popping it later game, when we've already laid our natural land drops, do we really "need" him? Like, I've laid 5 lands, but I guess I need 7?

I almost never cut Therapy. But, I'm not shy about cutting Vets.

[Echelon]

Every list is different, but postboard I have access to 4 Decay, 4 Swords/Path, 1 M Pulse as spot removal for Shardless/Goyf. I don't share the same fear of turn 2 Goyf as others maybe? I don't need a pseudo-wall?

EDIT: Again, giving your opponent the choice is my very point. It isn't *that* difficult for them when they get to decide when Vet triggers. They glance at their hand and they're holding Jace/Garruk/Liliana (un-Deedable), they just swing with their dude. Now you either block and let them cast their dumb thing or eat the damage and Vet did literally nothing.


Also, I'm unsure why ppl are so afraid of t2 Goyf from Shardless? Like, postboard, aren't we running 8+ pieces of spot removal, 4 of which can't be countered? In my experience, their dudes aren't the issue, it's the AV and the walkers.

People don't fear Goyf. At all. It's just nice to be propelled 2 turns ahead so you can start overpowering your opponent. That's what the deck does best. The alternative is that you keep mucking about with roughly the same amount of mana as your opponent has, trying to play "their" game.

On Path - It gains some more ground in MUs like Reanimator/Lands. Getting rid of a fattie without giving your opponent up to 20 life is pretty nifty.

On cutting Vets - depends on the MU. Vs. Miracles/ANT/TES, I cut 3. In most other MUs I like to go full throttle.

[jdmdave]

Hey guys. I'm considering ponying up the 100-120ish in cards I'm missing to build sneak fit (namely, emrakul, volrath, tower, and sneaks).

* 4 Vet Ex
* 4 Therapy
* 3 Decay
* 4 Sneak
* 3 Top
* 2 Empath
* 1 Emrakul
* 1 Bellower
* 1 Thragdaddy
* 2 Nissa
* 1 Inferno Titan
* 1 Sidisi
* 4 Lightning Bolt
* 4 GSZ
* 3 Deed
* 22 Lands

Thoughts?

[rubblekill]

Lots to say here, and lots of quotes to reply to. My league finished. I ended up only playing 11/12 matches, scheduling with hell (finals) week got me on the last match (I may still be able to get it in on xmage though, who knows... technically I still have a few more days) but it's looking like my record is 6-3-2. All the results will have to be tallied in order to see if I top 4'ed. I think the final draw because I couldn't get a match scheduled will knock me out though, I was counting on another win or two.

My losses were to 4c Delver in a pretty unlucky sequence of events that I can no longer recall and to Omniscience which managed to T2 Emrakul me twice, once through a Cabal Therapy on their Show and Tell, they simply topdecked another. The final loss was to Infect, I had some pretty nice hands but they were Inkmoth heavy and I'm realizing that they can easily overload Paths.

The draws were to Miracles and more recently to Painter's Servant. I just played the Painter's match the other day so it's fresh in my head. The match ended 1-1-1 with me taking game 1, losing game 2, and being a turn or two off of winning when turns ran out in G3. We played a followup match for fun which I managed to 2-0 so I think I'm pretty favored, but Blood Moon decks with the right start can really slow us down and my deck is the grindiest thing I've ever played, aside from BUG Pod. Put the two together and I honestly believe the deck is slower than Miracles.

The total field was
Win
Grixis Delver
4C Delver
Dragon Stompy
Eldrazi
Pox
Death and Taxes

Lose
Infect
4C Delver
Show and Tell

Draw
Miracles
Painter's Servant

So my thoughts on the list and the stuff I was trying out:

Dark Confidant - Loved Bob every time I cast him, he's great in the builds I've been running, also probably nuts in Rhino builds. I'm going to start running more. Probable 4 of. If you think Courser/Top is absurd, try Bob/Top active before your third draw.
Monastery Mentor - I comboed a couple times, but ultimately it's not consistent enough. It also requires a few more hoops to jump through with sequencing which uses up brainpower, and takes time, when using just a single Top for triggers. I'm going to cut them.
Ranger of Eos - I'm going to rate it as worse than Rhino but better than Meren as a 4 drop. It did what I wanted it to do though, which was to act as another source of CA on legs. The package was a little underwhelming though because I never used Safekeeper. Getting DRS, Endless One, and sometimes even Vets was great.
Endless One - It was good, and sometimes game winning but not what I would consider a staple. I think I'll leave it in for now, but I'm going to look for a replacement. Of note, it was my only playable card several times under Blood Moon locks, and in such situations was able to give me some ability to play the game.
Sylvan Safekeeper - Pretty terrible. This is a card that I know we dream about using a lot, as a GSZ'able Mother of Runes that doesn't have summoning sickness but the results just weren't there. This is getting cut.
Cavern of Souls - I was very happy with this. I was dead set on increasing my list to two of them post board replacing the Phyrexian Tower, but then I played a game where Tower ran away with the game and I'm back to undecided.
Tidehollow Sculler - This likely has to do with the fact that I've been getting T1-2'ed left and right the past couple weeks but I think this is too slow for what it's in for. I feel like I should either go all in on the slow card and play Lost Legacy, or try and go faster with Thoughtseize.


A way's back, page 387 I mentioned what I would like to change my deck to. I'll give it some more thought. I'm not 100% on if I'm attending GP Louisville but as of now I'm going to try assuming it's still possible to register come early January when I have a better idea of my schedule. That will also be the next time I get to play Magic most likely so I probably won't be getting anymore data before then.

Stuff I know I want though:
Blessed Alliance
More Bob
Nissa
Something big (thinking KotR)

For a while today I was throwing around the idea of moving to a straight GB list. Diabolic Edict is a potent removal spell (albeit strictly worse than Blessed Alliance) that can fill in for what Abrupt Decay misses and in some side games I've been testing, Nissa is more powerful than Sigarda. Combined those two things free the deck from white. I feel like a Punishing build overloads on the small removal (Fires/Decay) so Jund isn't the route I want to go down, even though I'm in love with Chandra, Flamecaller. Try as I might, I can't find a blue build that I'm in love with either despite really wanting to add Leovold and Trophy Mage as they lead to too many 3 drops. So I may play with green/black a bit.

Also, a question. Assuming I can tutor it (KotR, Crop Rotation, etc) what are the thoughts on Maze of Ith, or on land tutors in general? I'm thinking about just how far a toolbox could be pushed and a part of me really likes the idea of being able to tutor a removal spell. I like Crop Rotations synergy with Nissa, Towers, Courser, and Tracker too. This is one direction I'm considering for a straight GB list to buff up on the remove anything aspect a bit.



I think it depends on the meta. At a large tournament I favor Path. Locally though, everyone has started running a couple basics because of my deck and because Blood Moon is popular. I'm actually on the verge of switching to Swords to Plowshares because I don't like Path getting value.



I take mine out all the time, but this could have to do with the local meta. In fact, I devoted 5 slots in my sideboard specifically to alternate mana sources over my Vets. I take them out all the time, or atleast trim on them. But, I run a really low curve so I can get away with downgrading my ramp.



Vets can block. Alternatively, when Vets are bad I keep alternate ramp sources in my sideboard to swap.



I almost never cut Therapy. But, I'm not shy about cutting Vets.

I have been toying around with blessed alliance and I have to admit I like it a lot, although I'm not sure if it's a must play yet. 4 life is relevant in a 1 rhino build and edict is potent. Yesterday I won through hard cast emrakul vs enchantress thanks to that effect for example.
If you have a flex slot I'd definitely try it.

@path: I thought that was a matter resolved long ago, unless you play sfm and her little friends there's no reason not to play path, I agree with Ricardio and Echelon

@vet: why board them out so much? I only cut em against miracles and high tide, they are so good against goyf decks it's not even funny. At the very least they are a shuffle effect, a moat or tireless tracker fodder. I never dislike having them around.
Against shardless how can you not cut therapies? Doesn't seems optimal sideboarding vs hymn / ts.dec.

[Echelon]

Against shardless how can you not cut therapies? Doesn't seems optimal sideboarding vs hymn / ts.dec.

Well, how bad is having to discard CT from a Hymn..?

Besides, hitting the right cards w/ Therapy means you stop their CA and just run them over.

[rubblekill]

Well, how bad is having to discard CT from a Hymn..?

Besides, hitting the right cards w/ Therapy means you stop their CA and just run them over.

Meh, it's the worst top deck literally. Of course hitting with therapy is good, as it always is, but in a grindfest like that I'd rather board in PWs or something instead of therapies. It's not like they can fly over vet and deny our trigger
I won't keep the card just to hope they hymn us AND hit it

[Echelon]

I won't keep the card just to hope they hymn us AND hit it

I keep it to disrupt their gameplan. Had it come up that I cast T1 Therapy, hitting 2 Hymn and flashing it back T2 to take 2 Goyfs (my opponent had just 1 at first, but he topdecked a second copy). Needless to say I won that game, lol.

Don't get me wrong, that was a beautiful Magical Christmas Land game, but the case it makes remains relevant. Worst case scenario, Therapy will always allow you to strip them from whatever is most disruptive to your gameplan (or they simply don't have it, which is never bad). Best case scenario is a Magical Christmas Land blowout. How is that bad?

[square_two]

Hey guys. I'm considering ponying up the 100-120ish in cards I'm missing to build sneak fit (namely, emrakul, volrath, tower, and sneaks).

* 4 Vet Ex
* 4 Therapy
* 3 Decay
* 4 Sneak
* 3 Top
* 2 Empath
* 1 Emrakul
* 1 Bellower
* 1 Thragdaddy
* 2 Nissa
* 1 Inferno Titan
* 1 Sidisi
* 4 Lightning Bolt
* 4 GSZ
* 3 Deed
* 22 Lands

Thoughts?

Lightning Bolts are interesting. Not sure I'd run with 4 though. Since you don't have a 4th 6-drop or higher, I wouldn't run the 2nd Empath. I've been running 40+ matches with one Empath and 2 Titans/Bellower/Emrakul and it has only very rarely come up where I would have wanted a second Empath. Honestly I've considered a second Inferno Titan. Card is great at clearing opp's board/walkers and a solid wall against Angler or Reality Smasher in the same way Primeval Titan would be. It's what I usually Empath for if I don't have Sneak Attack out.

Might consider some number of DRS or a single Sakura-Tribe Elder. I think 22 lands + 4 Vets + ~2 other acceleration is where you want to be with Sneak, just because hitting 5 mana is so vital (Sneak w/ Daze protection, or Sneak/activate same turn).

Oh, Eternal Witness! Great with Bellower, great in this list just like most nic fit lists.

******

So I put together Nyx Fit online last night and started a league. First match was Grixis Delver.

Game 1 I play out two Veterans which he removes in response to me casting Therapy...which gives me enough mana to cast Rector after seeing his hand, and then sacrificing the Rector to the Therapy and grabbing Doomwake Giant to wipe his Pyromancer/tokens. Happend in one brilliant turn.

Game 2 I get runover quickly by delver/pyromancer/gurmag before I can do anything relevant.

Game 3 was a long one...wipe his board, he gets the angler, I Sterling Grove for O-Ring to answer it. Eventually I land Nissa and start crashing in with lands against his two DRS until he finds a Winter Orb. Game goes for a few more turns (Nissa up to 9 even) before I can land a Deed and wipe them. He lands a Lily but I have Faith's Fetters, and then a Gurmag but I have Doomwake and he concedes to a topdecked Eidolon of Blossoms that I play out.

Deck is fun :laugh:

[Navsi]

I really want to try and cram an Enslave into my Nyx Fit sideboard.

[Brael]

@path: I thought that was a matter resolved long ago, unless you play sfm and her little friends there's no reason not to play path, I agree with Ricardio and Echelon


My meta is heavier on basics than most. In a big tournament I would run path, but I think Swords is the better local option right now.


@vet: why board them out so much? I only cut em against miracles and high tide, they are so good against goyf decks it's not even funny. At the very least they are a shuffle effect, a moat or tireless tracker fodder. I never dislike having them around.
Against shardless how can you not cut therapies? Doesn't seems optimal sideboarding vs hymn / ts.dec.

Vet is again because of local decks. Aside from Delver, every deck I see locally runs 2-3 basics now and that makes Vet a lot worse.

Therapy is pretty good against Shardless. They don't handle discard well, you want to either get their brainstorms or their threats. I think I sometimes take out one Therapy. But vets always come out because Shardless plays the early game better than we do.

Basically, Therapy is still a good card without Vets, but Vets are a pretty bad card without Therapy in my opinion.

This is my SB plan for Shardless with my current configuration
-2 Mentor, -1 Therapy +1 KotR, +2 Sorin LoI
+Swamp/Forest version (opposed to Island version) -4 Vet, +2 DRS, +1 Hierarch, +1 Carpet of Flowers

[Brael]

Messing around with a GB build. The options go pretty deep. Here's my first draft, would happily take some feedback on it

22 land
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ash Barrens
3 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor

20 creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Nissa, Vital Force

19 spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crop Rotation

[Arianrhod]

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

[Whitefaces]

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

This is exactly how I play the matchup too. When I play with Shardless, this is not what I want to be seeing.

[lavafrogg]

Messing around with a GB build. The options go pretty deep. Here's my first draft, would happily take some feedback on it

22 land
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ash Barrens
3 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor

20 creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Nissa, Vital Force

19 spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Crop Rotation

Nice list!

I am currently working on a BG list that runs 3 Trackers and 0 confidants, also 3 Veteran Explorer and 4 Deathrite Shaman as he is such a house in so many matchups.

[Brael]

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

I find Shardless uses the mana better than we do, up to 5 mana. Once you hit 5+ we're better equipped to use the mana. I like making sure they don't get into a scenario where their board is too strong to come back from in time though.

One line is clearly better than the other, but Shardless is so favorable that it probably doesn't matter much. I think the Shardless matchup is better than the Delver one.

[rubblekill]

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless. My plan vs Shardless, with any version of Nic Fit, is to just jam as many Vets down their throat as humanly possible. I'll aggressively play / Zenith Vets to the point where I typically have two swinging on offense and one on defense. If they set them off, I go nuclear and use the mana better than they do (usually by floating a deed or some bomb with Top or holding it in hand and hoping they don't have lucky Hymns). If they don't, I tempo them out of the game by continuing to make land drops and sculpting the board state. 3-4 Vets in play makes their planeswalkers very awkward, as well, as neither Jace nor Liliana likes multiple "unblockable" 1/1s.

Again, this is what I actually do, what I've tested, and what has worked well for me. The Vets in or out debate could very well be one that isn't necessarily a "right or wrong" scenario -- it's possible that, as long as you make the appropriate decisions in sideboard selection / construction and your playstyle suits your decision, that either option is functional and will lead to wins.

I play in the same way, and I also think that this deck allows multiple playstyles and decisions. If they do well siding that way, good for them!

[Brael]

Nice list!

I am currently working on a BG list that runs 3 Trackers and 0 confidants, also 3 Veteran Explorer and 4 Deathrite Shaman as he is such a house in so many matchups.

2 Tracker feels right to me, maybe even 1 (I was thinking about the flip Nissa as another 3). Bob is amazing though, I can't stress enough how good he is in these SE Fit builds which are low on the curve and high on CA. 4 may be pushing things, but the right number is definitely > 2.

I might go back to a Junk build, but I like the way a straight GB list looks. My biggest concern right now is that the curve is a bit higher than what I've been playing, that could temper Bob's usefulness a bit but I don't see easy spots on the curve to trim. Paths jumping up to 2 mana removal spells is a big one.

One thing I would look at though is a Surrak build, he accomplishes a lot of what I was wanting to do with Saskia but without the drawback of being 4 colors, Tracker seems stronger there. In those sorts of builds you want to hit 8 power off of two bodies, so 3 power is something of a magic number for your creatures. That's something I was playing with a bit but I didn't find enough 2 power 3 drops. In theory the GSZ into Dryad Arbor plan gets a lot stronger under such a build since it turns on 2 power creatures for Ferocious.


I play in the same way, and I also think that this deck allows multiple playstyles and decisions. If they do well siding that way, good for them!

The way I see it, is if the results suggest the sideboard plan isn't any more effective than simply doing nothing at all... that's sideboard slots that can be devoted to other matches.

[Arianrhod]

The way I see it, is if the results suggest the sideboard plan isn't any more effective than simply doing nothing at all... that's sideboard slots that can be devoted to other matches.

While I agree with this, I'd note that I don't ever sideboard anything with Shardless in mind. They get enough splash hate from other things that I don't feel the need to board anything specifically for them, so I don't really have slots to free up per se. I typically only board 4ish vs them, usually some kind of extra PWs or other over the top anti-Miracles stuff, taking out the Therapies.

[Brael]

While I agree with this, I'd note that I don't ever sideboard anything with Shardless in mind. They get enough splash hate from other things that I don't feel the need to board anything specifically for them, so I don't really have slots to free up per se. I typically only board 4ish vs them, usually some kind of extra PWs or other over the top anti-Miracles stuff, taking out the Therapies.

I don't really have anything in my sideboard for shardless specifically either, but it does affect the weighting of various cards. For example, I could trim from 5 ramp cards in my SB to potentially 4. I'll have to give it some more thought. Shardless is one of the big matchups I like being able to go up to 4 DRS for though, because having DRS superiority or even parity in the match is extremely strong. Shardless has some of the worst mana in the format, they really rely on their DRS to smooth things out, so if you get DRS advantage you can often times just make their deck not function.

Edit:
Goldfished a few games with the BG build. I'm a fan, but there's still some adjustments to make. It's getting pretty consistent T5-T6 kills. Managed to T2 Nissa a couple times even. At a minimum it seems like it's a workable plan.

Really liking the Liliana. Steve into Liliana into regrowing Steve is pure value.

If anyone wants to try goldfishing it, here's my list on TappedOut
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rock-fit-2/

It gets out of control fast. Tribe Elder puts in some major work.

As it turns out, Crop Rotation/Tireless Tracker is pretty absurd too. Works great with extra Vets as well. One play I've made a couple times is having a Tracker down, GSZ for a Vet, play the Vet, Crop Rotation for a Phyrexian Tower, tower the Vet, and gain 3 clue tokens while having 4 mana to use on them.

Edit again: Still no results other than goldfishing, but I'm liking the GB build. It's a good 2 turns faster than Junk SE Fit is while maintaining the parts of SE that I like.

Come to think of it, my hands have been SDT light and that could be a major speed component. I'll have a few hours to sit and ponder things tomorrow, so I'll give it some more thought then. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing as a tutor and with a little setup you can essentially turn it into Ancestral Recall. With or without Tracker, in several games now I've used Crop Rotations to fetch up a Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer. It even leads into a reasonable 1 land opening of Forest/Vet, Rotation Forest for Tower, Tower Vet, fetch 2 lands, have XXBB available for mana, and 3 lands going into T3.

[Echelon]

It's interesting that I've had the exact opposite solution to Shardless.

I guess it's just a good MU and it doesn't matter much how you choose to handle it, as long as it goes well with your playstyle.


As it turns out, Crop Rotation/Tireless Tracker is pretty absurd too. Works great with extra Vets as well. One play I've made a couple times is having a Tracker down, GSZ for a Vet, play the Vet, Crop Rotation for a Phyrexian Tower, tower the Vet, and gain 3 clue tokens while having 4 mana to use on them.

Edit again: Still no results other than goldfishing, but I'm liking the GB build. It's a good 2 turns faster than Junk SE Fit is while maintaining the parts of SE that I like.

Come to think of it, my hands have been SDT light and that could be a major speed component. I'll have a few hours to sit and ponder things tomorrow, so I'll give it some more thought then. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing as a tutor and with a little setup you can essentially turn it into Ancestral Recall. With or without Tracker, in several games now I've used Crop Rotations to fetch up a Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer. It even leads into a reasonable 1 land opening of Forest/Vet, Rotation Forest for Tower, Tower Vet, fetch 2 lands, have XXBB available for mana, and 3 lands going into T3.

What I hear is "More Trackers!". BG Landfall FTW? Fetch into land into Crop Rotation into fetch into land for 4*n clues seems like good value. Also seems like a good deal of durdling though. And opening yourself up to stuff like AD.

Oh, while you're at it you could add Explorations and Courser of Kruphix(es). That would allow you to power through your deck like there's no tomorrow.

Be careful w/ Crop Rotation though.

I'm not sold on the idea just yet.

[rubblekill]

I have always liked the idea of playing a clean GB list, I'll try it.
The one thing that I'd do though is playing primeval and or grave titans, maybe thrag or something like finks for life gain? I'd cut meren and the chameleon.
The list seems threat light, although I'm well aware that tracker becomes scary fast. I am playing a 3 trackers list now, just testing, the thing is that yes they become huge, but the scare of a top deck ad makes me want to have a "real" bomb that can 180^ the board and dies to stp only (primeval would fetch 2t in that mu). In gb grave titan is the very best available imo

E. I see that you play dark confidant, maybe titans means that I'd play a whole different deck [emoji1]

[Whitefaces]

Here's a list with Crop Rotations that I ran at my LGS to a bunch of 4-0s if anyone is interested. This was during the Treasure Cruise era so there would definitely be some upgrades, Tracker sounds good.

http://imgur.com/4CAv3NG.png

[MDHackbert]

I don't really have anything in my sideboard for shardless specifically either, but it does affect the weighting of various cards. For example, I could trim from 5 ramp cards in my SB to potentially 4. I'll have to give it some more thought. Shardless is one of the big matchups I like being able to go up to 4 DRS for though, because having DRS superiority or even parity in the match is extremely strong. Shardless has some of the worst mana in the format, they really rely on their DRS to smooth things out, so if you get DRS advantage you can often times just make their deck not function.

Edit:
Goldfished a few games with the BG build. I'm a fan, but there's still some adjustments to make. It's getting pretty consistent T5-T6 kills. Managed to T2 Nissa a couple times even. At a minimum it seems like it's a workable plan.

Really liking the Liliana. Steve into Liliana into regrowing Steve is pure value.

If anyone wants to try goldfishing it, here's my list on TappedOut
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/rock-fit-2/

It gets out of control fast. Tribe Elder puts in some major work.

As it turns out, Crop Rotation/Tireless Tracker is pretty absurd too. Works great with extra Vets as well. One play I've made a couple times is having a Tracker down, GSZ for a Vet, play the Vet, Crop Rotation for a Phyrexian Tower, tower the Vet, and gain 3 clue tokens while having 4 mana to use on them.

Edit again: Still no results other than goldfishing, but I'm liking the GB build. It's a good 2 turns faster than Junk SE Fit is while maintaining the parts of SE that I like.

Come to think of it, my hands have been SDT light and that could be a major speed component. I'll have a few hours to sit and ponder things tomorrow, so I'll give it some more thought then. Crop Rotation has been pretty amazing as a tutor and with a little setup you can essentially turn it into Ancestral Recall. With or without Tracker, in several games now I've used Crop Rotations to fetch up a Phyrexian Tower as a sac outlet for Veteran Explorer. It even leads into a reasonable 1 land opening of Forest/Vet, Rotation Forest for Tower, Tower Vet, fetch 2 lands, have XXBB available for mana, and 3 lands going into T3.


Why so few Deeds?

[Ralf]

I have toyed with Crop rotation a few weeks ago.

My conclusion is that Jund colors are better suited for this kind of deck because you get access to Punishing Fire.

The list is not fully tested (only 20 games or so) so I'll leave it here for what it is worth.

https://s24.postimg.org/4zqtl0bsh/Landfall_Fit.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/4zqtl0bsh/)

Happy brewing !

Ps: here is the sideboard

SB: 1 Lost Legacy
SB: 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
SB: 3 Abeyance
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Sejiri Steppe
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

[mistercakes]

what's the inside joke on calling veteran explorer steve?

[Echelon]

what's the inside joke on calling veteran explorer steve?

Steve isn't a Veteran Explorer. You make Steve a sad, old snake.

[Whitefaces]

what's the inside joke on calling veteran explorer steve?

Steve is Sakura-Tribe Elder, aka STE. Sounds like Steve...yeah.

[mistercakes]

ah i see. don't play that guy!

[Brael]

Why so few Deeds?

With the type of CA you put out, you don't really need them, spot removal alone is enough.

[Brael]

I have always liked the idea of playing a clean GB list, I'll try it.
The one thing that I'd do though is playing primeval and or grave titans, maybe thrag or something like finks for life gain? I'd cut meren and the chameleon.
The list seems threat light, although I'm well aware that tracker becomes scary fast. I am playing a 3 trackers list now, just testing, the thing is that yes they become huge, but the scare of a top deck ad makes me want to have a "real" bomb that can 180^ the board and dies to stp only (primeval would fetch 2t in that mu). In gb grave titan is the very best available imo

E. I see that you play dark confidant, maybe titans means that I'd play a whole different deck [emoji1]

Dark Confidant is really, really strong if you mind the rest of your curve. It gets absurd with SDT, it's just as broken as Courser/SDT is, and Courser/Bob/SDT is even better than that.

[rubblekill]

Dark Confidant is really, really strong if you mind the rest of your curve. It gets absurd with SDT, it's just as broken as Courser/SDT is, and Courser/Bob/SDT is even better than that.

I don't doubt that at all, but at that point you are playing a different kind of nic fit, not necessarily worse or better, just different and that is completely fine.
The thing is that playing gb I really really feel the lack of path(/stp), smashers lages gurmags become a problem fast if you only have decay in hand, and one can play so many 2 mana removal spells (ad + edict) in the deck..

[Ricardio]

I don't doubt that at all, but at that point you are playing a different kind of nic fit, not necessarily worse or better, just different and that is completely fine.
The thing is that playing gb I really really feel the lack of path(/stp), smashers lages gurmags become a problem fast if you only have decay in hand, and one can play so many 2 mana removal spells (ad + edict) in the deck..

I feel like trading power and velocity for a more sturdy manabase is not stronger. I could get behind lessening the splash in a 3 color variant but I firmly believe the 3rd color is a necessity.

[Navsi]

All G/B needs is a Baleful Strix equivalent - a way of making a creature that blocks flyers and has deathtouch, that doesn't cost you a card. A G/B Nekrataal would probably do the job just fine too, as long as it costs 4 mana or less.

Edit:
http://i.imgur.com/o9QVEnd.jpg

This seems like it might be playable in Atraxa as a 1-of. Ramps in the early game, pumps your tokens in the late game.

[rubblekill]

I feel like trading power and velocity for a more sturdy manabase is not stronger. I could get behind lessening the splash in a 3 color variant but I firmly believe the 3rd color is a necessity.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I have infact been reducing the white splash. Gb is very fun, but the lack of path is back breaking

[square_two]

Edit:
http://i.imgur.com/o9QVEnd.jpg

This seems like it might be playable in Atraxa as a 1-of. Ramps in the early game, pumps your tokens in the late game.

Interesting. Pumping the tokens from combat walkers could be nice. Playing 6cmc Sorin or Elspeth a turn earlier could also be pretty back-breaking.

[Brael]

I don't doubt that at all, but at that point you are playing a different kind of nic fit, not necessarily worse or better, just different and that is completely fine.
The thing is that playing gb I really really feel the lack of path(/stp), smashers lages gurmags become a problem fast if you only have decay in hand, and one can play so many 2 mana removal spells (ad + edict) in the deck..

No argument that it's different, but I think it plays well.

I do have a few answers to various large creatures though. For example, I threw in a Maze of Ith as a Crop Rotation target, between the two cards you effectively have 2 Maze's which can blank any large creature like Angler or Smasher.

This is where Bob shines too, you can pretty easily take 2 for 1's when you have enough CA to make up for it.


I feel like trading power and velocity for a more sturdy manabase is not stronger. I could get behind lessening the splash in a 3 color variant but I firmly believe the 3rd color is a necessity.

You could be right. A light splash of a third color is effectively free which is how I've always justified a third color. Going from 1 mana removal to 2 mana removal is a very real cost though to say nothing of exile vs destroy.

It's something that I think warrants testing though.


This seems like it might be playable in Atraxa as a 1-of. Ramps in the early game, pumps your tokens in the late game.

I've felt for awhile that a combat walker build is best as Junk. This just reinforces that opinion further. I haven't quite figured out how to build it yet. The curve is really ugly.



What I hear is "More Trackers!". BG Landfall FTW? Fetch into land into Crop Rotation into fetch into land for 4*n clues seems like good value. Also seems like a good deal of durdling though. And opening yourself up to stuff like AD.

Oh, while you're at it you could add Explorations and Courser of Kruphix(es). That would allow you to power through your deck like there's no tomorrow.

Be careful w/ Crop Rotation though.

I'm not sold on the idea just yet.

I like Crop Rotation more as a general utility card. It's card advantage, removal, or ramp depending on what you need at the time. A risky card to cast, but very versatile.

I'm not sure about landfall. Courser and Tracker are the only cards with a landfall type ability that I've found to be strong enough. It's something I've looked into a couple times and there's just not much else there. I think a Tracker heavy build could work with Surrak, but I haven't found enough other support for it yet but it's something I'm keeping my eyes open for. Surrak especially interests me because my league results drilled home the point to me that my current build is too slow. I've got the CA/Removal but I don't have the speed and I need to do something about that. My recent GB build addresses the speed issue somewhat, but I want to do more on that front.

All too often due to all the searching/tutoring with this deck I feel as if I'm on the 2-0 or bust plan to win a match. This is probably due to my shift to smaller creatures and unsuccessful attempt to add a combo kill with Mentor, but I think I can address that by making the bigger threats more potent. Nissa is great here, she's basically Reality Smasher.

[Echelon]

Interesting. Pumping the tokens from combat walkers could be nice. Playing 6cmc Sorin or Elspeth a turn earlier could also be pretty back-breaking.

In this scenario you'd play the enchantment quite early, meaning you don't have any tokes to boost. You know what other card(s) allow you to play 6 CMC walkers a turn earlier..? DRS, STE. And both of those, you can GSZ for.

@Brael: You can also go with a single GSZ'able fattie as your win con (and mayhaps accept that you can't hardcast it). Atraxa would be fine (and also plays well w/ PWs) for that purpose. Or, if you want to stick to BG - Verdurous Gearhulk. 8/8, trample is nothing to sneeze at. But I might just be a bit of a GSZ addict. Consistency FTW and all that nonsense.

[Brael]

@Brael: You can also go with a single GSZ'able fattie as your win con (and mayhaps accept that you can't hardcast it). Atraxa would be fine (and also plays well w/ PWs) for that purpose. Or, if you want to stick to BG - Verdurous Gearhulk. 8/8, trample is nothing to sneeze at. But I might just be a bit of a GSZ addict. Consistency FTW and all that nonsense.

That's the role I had in mind for Chameleon Colossus. 8/8, potentially 12/12, harder to kill, beats cards like Angler, and can't be chumped by Strix, also uncounterable off Cavern. No trample though.

[Navsi]

I don't think we can reliably look at Chameleon Colossus as a wincon when Young Pyromancer is in the format.

[Brael]

I don't think we can reliably look at Chameleon Colossus as a wincon when Young Pyromancer is in the format.

Are decks back to running 4 Pyromancer MB? My only experience with this is what people do locally and it's never more than 2 there, and only in a couple of decks at that. Plus you should have removal to stop the Pyromancer. Deed, Pulse, Decay the source of the tokens, Therapy their hand, and if all else fails, Golgari Charm in the SB.

[Navsi]

Are decks back to running 4 Pyromancer MB? My only experience with this is what people do locally and it's never more than 2 there, and only in a couple of decks at that. Plus you should have removal to stop the Pyromancer. Deed, Pulse, Decay the source of the tokens, Therapy their hand, and if all else fails, Golgari Charm in the SB.

Maybe it's just my local meta. I do think you want your finishing threats to be more evasive than Colossus, and either fly or have trample. I could see Colossus being a lot better if you ran a Kessig Wolf Run for your Primeval Titan to fetch.

[Ralf]

Maybe it's just my local meta. I do think you want your finishing threats to be more evasive than Colossus, and either fly or have trample. I could see Colossus being a lot better if you ran a Kessig Wolf Run for your Primeval Titan to fetch.

But you need a way to produce RED !

[Navsi]

But you need a way to produce RED !

You're in two colours, it's not like you don't have the manabase slots free for a Mountain or whatever.

[rubblekill]

You're in two colours, it's not like you don't have the manabase slots free for a Mountain or whatever.

But at that point you are adding red to a deck which main purpose was to be straight GB in the first place. And let's face it, if you don't play sneak attack red is definitely weaker than white

[Navsi]

But at that point you are adding red to a deck which main purpose was to be straight GB in the first place. And let's face it, if you don't play sneak attack red is definitely weaker than white

If you want to stay in GB then, you'll need to find a different source of evasion I guess. Rancor?

[Luklinda]

All G/B needs is a Baleful Strix equivalent - a way of making a creature that blocks flyers and has deathtouch, that doesn't cost you a card. A G/B Nekrataal would probably do the job just fine too, as long as it costs 4 mana or less.

Edit:
http://i.imgur.com/o9QVEnd.jpg

This seems like it might be playable in Atraxa as a 1-of. Ramps in the early game, pumps your tokens in the late game.

So it's a legendary enchantment that fractured powerstone only for PW and pumps dudes, that are in play when you cast it, at sorcery speed.

zealous persecution seems infinitely better from a pumping perspective as well as spear of heliod and glorious anthem. And I there are about 50+ more viable mana ramp options. New =/= automatically competitive viable.

[Whitefaces]

Did you fall on your keyboard?

[sdematt]

Coming to Europe tomorrow. Want to say hi to the Siege Rhino Master?

Brussels Sunday 18th 9-5
Prague Dec 18th evening to Dec 22nd morning
Vienna Dec 22 afternoon to Dec 26th morning
Munich December 26th afternoon to Dec 30th morning

-Matt

[Brael]

If you want to stay in GB then, you'll need to find a different source of evasion I guess. Rancor?

I think I like your Kessig idea more than Rancor. Rancor can't be tutored, and there's a huge consistency difference in running card+1x tutor vs just the card. Rancor is an easier board state to solve for the opponent too, given the option my natural inclinations lean towards Kessig because it's more versatile. Also, sometimes just the threat of an activation is all you need to swing a weak board, while Rancor doesn't have quite the same ability.


You're in two colours, it's not like you don't have the manabase slots free for a Mountain or whatever.

It's much more than a single Mountain, it either requires a substantial commitment to generating red mana, or it requires two tutors (including fetches) in order to get Kessig+Mountain. If you go with my 1 of Crop Rotation plan that leaves you with 5 red sources (4 fetch+Mountain) from land, 2 from DRS, 1 from STE, and either 4 from Verdant Catacombs (if Taiga) or 4 from Explorer (if Mountain) and then +1 more from Crop Rotation when you draw Kessig. So optimistically 13 sources. 13 sources is ok all things considered, but I would be hesitant to do it, it just feels fragile to me.

For a similar number of hoops jumped through, and a mere 1 mana more in activation costs you can get Rogues Passage. Though unlike Kessig which can threaten to pump if not blocked, or trample if blocked the Passage has to be paid up front which means you probably don't get to swing for 8 unblockable.

Maybe Kessig would work as a sideboard option? I've never been afraid to throw lands into my SB. I'm a little concerned about two more colorless lands though (Mountain+Kessig), the BG build leans heavier on Abrupt Decay and an early colorless land when you're trying to Decay is a bit of a problem. Maybe it would have to be Taiga/Kessig with a SB plan of taking out a colorless+basic to bring this combo in.

I'll think on it more, I'm on vacation for the next few weeks but perhaps I can get in some Xmage games to test.

Edit: Some quick thinking leads me to think Taiga is superior to Mountain here. Tagia is better in your opening hand, and slots over Bayou 3 more easily than a Mountain slots in over a basic. I think it's still a SB plan though, where you can bring in more DRS to supplement, but I see where it could work. I'm going to goldfish a few hands in that configuration.

Edit again: Goldfishing done, had some fantastic hands and Kessig was too clunky. The problem seemed to be similar to that of hasted vs non hasted creatures. Kessig basically doesn't have haste, it's mana intensive enough that if you tutor for it, there's going to be a 1 turn delay before you can really derive any benefit from it. The stuff I'm looking to Crop Rotation in can benefit that turn though like Phyrexian Tower (the best thing to Crop Rotation for I've found) or interaction like Maze of Ith. This is a problem because casting Crop Rotation carries substantial risk, you really need it to deliver a payoff right away.

I'm up for testing the Rancor plan too, but I can't figure out the cut.

Also, I don't know how I never fell in love with the Tribe Elder/Meren combo before, but man is it potent.

[square_two]

Nyx Fit is a blast. Now I'm starting to be unsure of what to take to Louisville.

Just had a game where I hid a Doomwake and Courser under Parallax Wave, next turn got back Eidolon of Blossoms with Starfield, play a Blossoms from hand, attack(!) with the 4/4 Parallax Wave, sacrifice it to Phyrexian Tower after combat to draw 4 and wipe the opponent's board.

Also had a game against lands where I was able to Fetters their Thespian's Stage which gave me time for my enchantment army to win :laugh:

I've put Humility in the main, no Living Plane anywhere (seems too gimicky), added a Decay to the side. So far it's fine. Humility + Starfield on the board, recurring a simple Dead Weight every turn, will win you games. I'm considering having a taiga instead of Savannah, and putting Blood Moon in the side. So far no real answers for land stuff.

[Navsi]

Nyx Fit is a blast. Now I'm starting to be unsure of what to take to Louisville.

Just had a game where I hid a Doomwake and Courser under Parallax Wave, next turn got back Eidolon of Blossoms with Starfield, play a Blossoms from hand, attack(!) with the 4/4 Parallax Wave, sacrifice it to Phyrexian Tower after combat to draw 4 and wipe the opponent's board.

Also had a game against lands where I was able to Fetters their Thespian's Stage which gave me time for my enchantment army to win :laugh:

I've put Humility in the main, no Living Plane anywhere (seems too gimicky), added a Decay to the side. So far it's fine. Humility + Starfield on the board, recurring a simple Dead Weight every turn, will win you games. I'm considering having a taiga instead of Savannah, and putting Blood Moon in the side. So far no real answers for land stuff.

Living Plane is a pretty good answer to land stuff. It turns Deed into Armageddon and Doomwake into one-sided Armageddon, while making Miracles want to not Terminus you. Give it a test sometime.

[gth842s]

Brought Sneak Fit to a local 1K today. Did not go well. Matches were Miracles with counterspells and council's judgment main (1-1 draw), Burn (0-2 loss despite playing Thragtusk and recurring with Meren), Lands (2-1 win thanks to Sneak Attack and my opponent not getting his own lands off a Vet trigger), and 4-color Tezzerator (1-2 loss) with T1 chalice in 2 out of 3 games. I'm certain I didn't play optimally but I wasn't punting left and right either... frustrating.

Gaze of Granite (not included today) might have won me the match against Tezzerator and Meren felt bad most of the day; other than that I still think the list is great and not in need of much other than metagame appropriate sideboard tuning - Arian's list gives both inevitability thanks to Primeval Titan and quick free wins thanks to Sneak Attack.

There's a ton of Lands and Aluren in my meta - I've asked before but not gotten a ton of feedback - how do you all like to sideboard / mulligan for those matchups in particular?

Last question, I noted 2 hands where I didn't know whether to keep or ship the hand, so I'd like to ask y'all what you would do in my place (and why):

Against unknown opponent on the play: Sidisi, Punishing Fire, Pernicious Deed, Cabal Therapy, Sneak Attack, Bayou, Taiga

Against Tezzerator on the play: Mountain, Mountain, Grove, Deed, Sneak, Witness, Top

[Neo900]

I am working on a list in Jund colors including Scapeshift (and Burning Wish). It looks like this:

//Lands
4 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Taiga
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
4 Wooded Foothills

//Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Burning Wish
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Karn Liberated
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Creatures
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 From the Ashes
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

I love the Planeswalkers and I can bring them on quite often. Garruk as a flexible creature Tutor. Chandra is also very flexible. Either she provides a clock or draws Cards. And Karn. Karn allows so many plays and always the plan b "restart everything".
With my 10 mountains I can have 4 without destroying the 18 damage of the Valakut. Otherwise I have Primeval Titan which turns into an Inferno Titan quite fast.

[Arianrhod]

Brought Sneak Fit to a local 1K today. Did not go well. Matches were Miracles with counterspells and council's judgment main (1-1 draw), Burn (0-2 loss despite playing Thragtusk and recurring with Meren), Lands (2-1 win thanks to Sneak Attack and my opponent not getting his own lands off a Vet trigger), and 4-color Tezzerator (1-2 loss) with T1 chalice in 2 out of 3 games. I'm certain I didn't play optimally but I wasn't punting left and right either... frustrating.

Gaze of Granite (not included today) might have won me the match against Tezzerator and Meren felt bad most of the day; other than that I still think the list is great and not in need of much other than metagame appropriate sideboard tuning - Arian's list gives both inevitability thanks to Primeval Titan and quick free wins thanks to Sneak Attack.

There's a ton of Lands and Aluren in my meta - I've asked before but not gotten a ton of feedback - how do you all like to sideboard / mulligan for those matchups in particular?

Last question, I noted 2 hands where I didn't know whether to keep or ship the hand, so I'd like to ask y'all what you would do in my place (and why):

Against unknown opponent on the play: Sidisi, Punishing Fire, Pernicious Deed, Cabal Therapy, Sneak Attack, Bayou, Taiga

Against Tezzerator on the play: Mountain, Mountain, Grove, Deed, Sneak, Witness, Top

I've said my peace on Meren. I'll still include her, but I understand if others are not receiving the same dividends from her that I get.

I haven't played vs Aluren, but I presume it basically just relies on solid Therapies, parking a Deed in play and knowing when to pop it, and working towards some spaghetti breakfast.

As far as Lands goes, I haven't found it to be a particularly troublesome matchup. We have interact with 2x Deathrite main + 2-3 Surgicals sideboard, and they really, really passionately dislike annihilator 6. Just interact with them wherever you can, ideally get Thragtusk out early and try to get over 20 life, and work towards assembling Sneak + nonsense asap.

I'd keep both of those hands. There's a chance that they don't work out, obviously, but the upside is high on both and you're unlikely to mull into something better in each respective case.

[Bobmans]

As far as Lands goes, I haven't found it to be a particularly troublesome matchup. We have interact with 2x Deathrite main + 2-3 Surgicals sideboard, and they really, really passionately dislike annihilator 6. Just interact with them wherever you can, ideally get Thragtusk out early and try to get over 20 life, and work towards assembling Sneak + nonsense asap.


Sneakyfit runs Blood Moon like a champ.

[Arianrhod]

Sneakyfit runs Blood Moon like a champ.

Perhaps. I don't own Blood Moons, and I don't particularly see a burning need to acquire them. They're probably a reasonable choice, but not one that I really want to invest in. What I've been doing has been working for me, so I'm loathe to make changes for the sake of changes.

[gth842s]

I've said my peace on Meren. I'll still include her, but I understand if others are not receiving the same dividends from her that I get.

I haven't played vs Aluren, but I presume it basically just relies on solid Therapies, parking a Deed in play and knowing when to pop it, and working towards some spaghetti breakfast.

As far as Lands goes, I haven't found it to be a particularly troublesome matchup. We have interact with 2x Deathrite main + 2-3 Surgicals sideboard, and they really, really passionately dislike annihilator 6. Just interact with them wherever you can, ideally get Thragtusk out early and try to get over 20 life, and work towards assembling Sneak + nonsense asap.

I'd keep both of those hands. There's a chance that they don't work out, obviously, but the upside is high on both and you're unlikely to mull into something better in each respective case.

I spent maybe two hours looking for something to replace Meren with last night and concluded she's the best we've got until WotC, in their continuous quest to staple powerful spells to expensive creatures, prints a better option.

Aluren is challenging because a lot of builds play their game very similarly to Shardless right up until they combo off, which demands different types of cards / strategies. I've also kept up deed and popped it but lost because my opponent had sandbagged multiple ways to return / rebuy creatures - they just kept on doing their thing through the deed. It's often important to try to get multiple deeds or an extra Decay around.

@ Bobmans, I actually threw two blood moon into the side for Eldrazi and Lands last night. I'll report on how that works for me as soon as I get a chance to try it out in a local weekly.

As far as those hands go, I kept both. The first one turned out to be burn and he had kept a swingy but situationally amazing THREE Price of Progress. It didn't help that my next land drawn was Badlands, at which point he dealt me 18 damage in three spells :-\. I won off of the second hand (against Tezzerator) in a very grindy game that saw him recurring Ensnaring Bridge via Academy Ruins. He couldn't handle the sacrifice and re-casting of an Inferno Titan per turn, however. That was a weird deck but we may see more of it going forward - Breya, Etherium Shaper + Sword and Foundry Combo + Value Artifacts + Tezzeret, Smuggler's Copter, Daretti, and Dack Fayden with a sideboard Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience package (which is how he got me game three for the match - I was 1 mana shy of sneaking in Emrakul but oh well).

[Brael]

Played my GB build a bit more, Sakura-Tribe Elder + Liliana, the Last Hope is quite a combo. I would say the pairing is as powerful as Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy. And of course, Liliana is a great way to kill your Vet too if you need to.

I was very skeptical of Liliana to start, but now I'm a big fan.

Going by goldfishing, I'm able to play roughly half the deck by turn 7. That's more or less an acceptable speed. Since it's only a 1 card switch I'm not sure how much I can really attribute to it, but I'm very happy with 3 SDT instead of 4. The deck still has a lot of CA and filtering but that one fewer SDT is resulting in having a lot more mana available for mana sinks that affect the current turn rather than future turns.

Colossus is playing out ok too, I would encourage others to give it a try. It has some natural evasion and resiliency to removal and it hits really really freaking hard.

Here's the sequence I played out in my most recent game:
Opening hand - 2x Veteran Explorer, Bayou, Forest, Verdant Catacombs, Chameleon Colossus, Crop Rotation

T1 - Forest, Vet
T2 - Draw Abrupt Decay, play Bayou, play Vet, Crop Rotation Forest for Phyrexian Tower, Tower Vet #2 for Forest, Forest (giving me GGBB), play Colossus. Swing 1
T3 - Draw SDT, Tower Vet for Swamp/Forest, play Catacombs getting Bayou. Swing Colossus for 16.

That's not quite a kill, but it's pretty darn close with an SDT/Decay still in hand. I think that opening is good enough though to show off the power of Crop Rotation for Tower, and for Colossus.

I can see where people still might not like Colossus, but it's a solid 4 drop in my opinion. I'm in love with the Vet/Crop Rotation openings, and those really like having potent 4 drops to grab.

[jbone2016]

Sneakyfit runs Blood Moon like a champ.

From the ashes?

[fireiced]

Played my GB build a bit more, Sakura-Tribe Elder + Liliana, the Last Hope is quite a combo. I would say the pairing is as powerful as Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy. And of course, Liliana is a great way to kill your Vet too if you need to.

I was very skeptical of Liliana to start, but now I'm a big fan.



Liliana the Last Hope is pure gas vs matchups where they cannot pressure our walkers via combat and vs matchups where her +1 kills off a dork or critter. I will rank her right after Nissa Vital Force. Being running 1 Nissa and 1 Lily Last Hope for quite some time now and loving the pair.

[Ricardio]

Nyx Fit is a blast. Now I'm starting to be unsure of what to take to Louisville.

Just had a game where I hid a Doomwake and Courser under Parallax Wave, next turn got back Eidolon of Blossoms with Starfield, play a Blossoms from hand, attack(!) with the 4/4 Parallax Wave, sacrifice it to Phyrexian Tower after combat to draw 4 and wipe the opponent's board.

Also had a game against lands where I was able to Fetters their Thespian's Stage which gave me time for my enchantment army to win :laugh:

I've put Humility in the main, no Living Plane anywhere (seems too gimicky), added a Decay to the side. So far it's fine. Humility + Starfield on the board, recurring a simple Dead Weight every turn, will win you games. I'm considering having a taiga instead of Savannah, and putting Blood Moon in the side. So far no real answers for land stuff.

Updated list would be amazing :laugh:

[square_two]

Updated list would be amazing :laugh:

Think this is it, or very close:

22 lands
-3 Towers
-3 Forest, 2 Plains, 1 Swamp

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman/Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Academy Rector
1 Courser
2 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant

2 Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Dead Weight
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Sterling Grove
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Parallax wave
1 Humility
2 Starfield of Nyx
3 Pernicious Deed

side:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Seal of Primordium

Had something besides Curse in the side but I can't think of what it was. I'm avoiding Curse online due to the bug with Rector. Playing in paper I really would love having both Humility and Curse available.

I am very impressed with Faith's Fetters and Parallax Wave. Fetters can hit so many things...DRS, walkers, Thespian's Stage, scary creatures. The lifegain can be very relevant. I'd enjoy having a second available but unfortunately I think it just costs a tad too much to warrant. Parallax buys you time to find a Deed and can also save your important creatures from removal. Haven't been able to do the infinite flicker tricks yet.

Unsure about the Spirit of the Labyrinths...might become a 3rd Leyline of Sanctity and something else.

[pettdan]

I brought Sneaky Fit to a local Legacy tournament with 40-ish players this Sunday, one with higher stakes than the weekly tournaments that I sometimes report from. I chose this deck since it's fun and can end games quickly. I've only went 2-2 and 2-1-1 in the local weekly events but losses have often been infuriatingly close so I thought it'd be worth another try. All cards in the maindeck are from your posted versions in this thread but I've been changing things in the sideboard to my liking.

I hope some of you'll enjoy reading this like I enjoy reading all of your reports posted here. Sorry for any lazy writing, this is mostly written on the phone, and be aware that I took very few notes so games are not reported in great detail. This report became quite lenghty but still I haven't touched many areas or gone into great detail about the games...

Regarding expected meta I thought there might be a couple of Lands decks, Reanimators, Delver variants, Miracles (usually ending up in the top 8), Death and Taxes, Deathblade and a few Infect and Storm decks. I decided to play a third graveyard interaction card, a Leyline since it can win games singlehandedly. I also changed Blood Moons into From the Ashes since they have the advantage vs Lands that coupled with a surgical they can win you the game while a Blood Moon can be dealt with in an uncomplicated fashion using Krosan Grip (which I expect as a 4 of in post-sb games). Another advantage is that you get lands back upon resolution and don't have to worry about playing duals. The disadvantage is of course being one turn/mana slower which can matter a lot, and Krosan Grip can actually be dealt with by Therapy (and followed up by a Surgical it gives basically the same permanent answer as Surgical on Depths or Stage.

I played the following list.

Maindeck: 61 cards

Creatures, Planeswalker: 16 cards
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Inferno Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells: 23 cards
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Sneak Attack

Lands: 22 cards
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp

Sideboard: 15 cards
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 From the Ashes
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Reclamation Sage

The Golgari Charm is there because, obvious as it may be, it's a two mana sweeper (DnT, Elves, TNN, Pyromancer, Infect). Instant speed is a bonus (relevant vs Rishadan Ports), so is the enchantment removal mode. The Diabolic Edicts are there primarily so you can survive a Marit Lage attack and get to Surgical Depths, and Eldrazi primarily. But they are also useful vs Goyf decks. I decided to try the Carpets again, have been playing them back and forth the last 3-4 years, but in a list with three 6-drops, three 5-drops, one 15-drop and a list that wants 5-6 mana to play and activate Sneak Attack during the same turn - they are probably better than in my other lists that tend to have a mana curve finishing with two 5 drops (Batterskull and Sigarda) or using Entomb+Reanimate to cheat things into play for 2 mana.

As I comment on the sideboard now I wonder if it would be a good idea to max out on the strong hate and get rid of stuff that adds some incremental value but that the maindeck already deals with. For example the two Diabolic Edicts could be two Blood Moons, since it's great vs the same decks that it's really in there for (Lands, Eldrazi, perhaps Goyf decks too). Also the Reclamation Sage giving access to GSZ-able removal could be another Leyline. I may try it that way next time.

R1: Death and Taxes 0-2 (0-1)
He wins a drawn out G1 where I play Punishing Fire on my own Veteran in response to the exile effect from a Palace Jailer and then realize a few seconds too late that I needed to fetch a Mountain off the trigger to be able to return and replay the P.Fire on his Stoneforge that he equips the Jitte to next turn. With counters on the Jitte I lose the game since I can't hit it with P.Fire, rather frustrating.

In G2 I have a great start with Therapy + Veteran into a potential Deed. I save the Deed in my hand, waiting for him to commit some resources to the board. Instead he Rishadan Ports me twice every turn keeping me off green and black mana also drawing three Wastelands which are used on my duals. Sanctum Prelate on two stops my Golgari Charm that I had just drawn, I was waiting to untap and use it in response to the Ports to clear the board of a Revoker on SDT and a Mother. I have a hand full of removal in terms of Deed, Deluge, Decay, and Punishing Fire but I never get a fetch or black dual again over 7 or so turns.

Sb:
Out: 1 Deathrite, 1 Nissa, 1 Primeval Titan, 1 Bellower
In: 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1(?) Diabolic Edict

R2: Dredge 0-2 (0-2)
G1: He kills me on his t2, thanks to Flamekin Zealot.
G2: I mulligan to 5 and settle for a Thoughtseize, SDT and three lands. Take his Breakthrough with the t1 Thoughtseize but he can activate Cephalid Colliseum after a few turns using LED to get threshold. I didn't draw any relevant interaction until the last turn but I couldn't both top, Veteran, Sneak and sneak in Emrakul during the last turn. Could have kept mulliganing into interaction but t1 Seize and an active top seemed more likely to end up successful to me.

Sb:
Out: 2 Decay, 1 Nissa, 1 Primeval Titan, 1 Bellower, [Sidisi and a Sneak Attack?]
In: 1 Leyline, 2 Surgical, 1 Golgari Charm, [1 Duress], 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Diabolic Edict (not sure what I boarded out for it)

Both first matchups felt very winnable, but of course they're losable too. I had lands players on both sides of me during R2, nice to have dodged those. Anyway, at 0-2 I was very unlikely to get to top8 but coldn't make up my mind to drop so I continued. Last time I joined I ended up winning after starting with 1-2.

R3: Elves 2-0 (1-2)
G1: He has a slow start, i kill a few elves with P.Fire, he gets a Leovold into play and I sneak in Emrakul ftw.
G2: Lots of removal and discard get there.

Sb:
Out: 1 Nissa, 1 Bellower, 1 Deathrite
In: 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Duress, 1 Golgari Charm

R4: Grixis Delver 2-0 (2-2)
G1: I think I therapy for FoW, get threatened by Delver, Leovold and Gurmag but manage to ramp into a Deed for seven, then an Emrakul removed his permanents.
G2: My notes say he plays Gurmag and Therapies my Thragtusk just before I can cast it to stabilize and Primeval Titan; Volraths Stronghold brings Thragtusk back which felt like a game winner (both the Tusk and Stronghold actually). And then the Titan is replayed..

Sb:
Out: 1 Nissa, 1 Bellower, 1 Deathrite then one more card, Sneak Attack or Veteran or the second Deathrite
In: 2 Carpets, 1 REB, 1 Golgari Charm

R5: Eldrazi 2-1 (3-2)
G1: I Therapy for Thought-Knot, hit none but take a Smasher on the flashback. He goes t3 Sower into Ugin activations for more Smashers. I think Emrakul is not too far away when I lose but he had enough permanents anyway for it not to have been enough.
G2 & 3: I'm afraid I don't remember the details and can't tell from my notes, I win one of the games by playing a t4 From the Ashes. [Oh yeah, Nissa stabilizes in one game.]

Sb:
Out: 2 P.Fire, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1(?) Deathrite, 1(?) Veteran or Cabal T or Bellower
In: 2 From the Ashes, 2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Reclamation Sage

R6: UWr Stoneblade 2-0 (4-2)
G1: Had a starting hand with Sneak Attack and Emrakul. I open with Top and he with two Flooded Strands. I think he fetches and plays Stoneforge getting not sure which equipment. Think I play t3 Therapy for FoW seeing Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, StP, Ponder, Snapcaster. Looking good for a t4 Sneak Attack, he played Karakas and probably pondered. T5 I consider if there's anything to ruin a sneaked Emmy, with two red sources I could play through the Karakas.. I realize that if he has pondered into a Clique he can Clique in response to my first activation of sneak, forcing me to sneak it again which he can then Karakas back into my hand and hit with the Clique effect still on the stack. I play a Steve and sacrifice it for the flashback Therapy naming and hitting a Clique. Emrakul does his thing and Veteran and Witness sneaked in for the last three damage next turn.

G2: double Carpets let me play a magical Christmas land game. T2 Therapy revealed a Back to Basics and Batterskull of relevance. I had a Decay for his Back to Basics around t3, could have turned ugly otherwise since I had all duals (if he had managed to remove the carpets). He had misboarded by keeping a pyroblast and I think something else too.

Sb:
Out: 1-2 Veterans, 0-1 Deathrites, 1 Bellower, 1 P.Fire
In: 2 Carpets, 1 Reclamation Sage, 1 REB

So I ended up with 4-2 and was due to tie breakers last of the 12 pointers, I think the first one made it into top 8. I had lots of fun anyway and as I said the two lost games were definitely winnable [matchups]. I think the deck is worth another few chances, I'm still moving things around in the sideboard so that's probably where most of the work is. I think the slot I would change for experimenting would be the Woodland Bellower, Primeval Titan sneaked in once let's you play all cards in the deck except for Emrakul and gives you fantastic board control with the Punishing Fires while also ensuring your future topdecks through the Stronghold. I think Primeval Titan seems much stronger than the Bellower.

[Brael]

Hows the rewrite on the primer going? I'm free for a couple days, if anything is needed.

Also, I'm seriously in love with Crop Rotation. This card does so much work. I'm finding in my GB build that Cavern doesn't have enough to work with at 13 humans (I've always used 14 hits as a rule of thumb), but I'm looking for another land to go in the slot, Cavern can always sit SB if I want to beef myself up against Chalice. I'm thinking about Tower of the Magistrate. It's ETB untapped, and could be a pretty good tutor hit against decks like D&T and X-Blade.

The verdict is still out on Ash Barrens. I like the ability to fight through Blood Moon, but that's about all it does, a fetchland is better in pretty much every other regard.

Alternatively, 7 basics for GB might be right. 6 has felt like too few on several occasions.

From playing it a bit, GB consistently churns through 28 cards in the deck by turn 5, including fetches and all that. And about half the time with 3 SDT's you'll also see an extra 5-10. So I think it's still accomplishing the SE goal of digging like a blue deck.

[RobNC]

What does Tower of the Magistrate protect you from, outside of Jitte -1/-1 counters, SoFaI triggers, and chumping a Phyrexian Revoker? Seems narrow unless I'm missing something.

[Brael]

What does Tower of the Magistrate protect you from, outside of Jitte -1/-1 counters, SoFaI triggers, and chumping a Phyrexian Revoker? Seems narrow unless I'm missing something.

Target the opponents creature, it pops off their equipment. It's still narrow, but it might be useful enough. The alternative is a 7th basic (5th Forest) in the slot.

[Arianrhod]

Hows the rewrite on the primer going? I'm free for a couple days, if anything is needed.

Also, I'm seriously in love with Crop Rotation. This card does so much work. I'm finding in my GB build that Cavern doesn't have enough to work with at 13 humans (I've always used 14 hits as a rule of thumb), but I'm looking for another land to go in the slot, Cavern can always sit SB if I want to beef myself up against Chalice. I'm thinking about Tower of the Magistrate. It's ETB untapped, and could be a pretty good tutor hit against decks like D&T and X-Blade.

The verdict is still out on Ash Barrens. I like the ability to fight through Blood Moon, but that's about all it does, a fetchland is better in pretty much every other regard.

Alternatively, 7 basics for GB might be right. 6 has felt like too few on several occasions.

From playing it a bit, GB consistently churns through 28 cards in the deck by turn 5, including fetches and all that. And about half the time with 3 SDT's you'll also see an extra 5-10. So I think it's still accomplishing the SE goal of digging like a blue deck.

Just pulling together recent / current lists from people, and/or grabbing links to any kind of significant finishes (anything top 16/32 in 40/100+ person events) would be ideal. I haven't had a ton of time to work on the updated text for the primer, but once I really sit down and blast through it, it won't take me long. The time consuming part of the process is the data acquisition.

[RobNC]

Target the opponents creature, it pops off their equipment. It's still narrow, but it might be useful enough. The alternative is a 7th basic (5th Forest) in the slot.

That's pretty sweet, I never considered that. Makes it slightly less narrow, but still a bit narrow. Easy way to kill a Batterskull germ!

[square_two]

What does Tower of the Magistrate protect you from, outside of Jitte -1/-1 counters, SoFaI triggers, and chumping a Phyrexian Revoker? Seems narrow unless I'm missing something.

Also there are cases where you want to attack through Baleful Strix.

I'd still only run it if you have both land tutors -and- expect a lot of blade or DnT decks.

[amppyou]

for those of you running Nyx Fit- have you tried Serra's Sanctum? The Towers seems to hamstring color enough, but I was just pondering.

I plan on bringing Nyx to the next weekly. I also wanted to give Aura of Silence a shot. If anyone on Nyx Fit can post a mana base that has been working well for them, I'd really appreciate it.

[square_two]

for those of you running Nyx Fit- have you tried Serra's Sanctum? The Towers seems to hamstring color enough, but I was just pondering.

I plan on bringing Nyx to the next weekly. I also wanted to give Aura of Silence a shot. If anyone on Nyx Fit can post a mana base that has been working well for them, I'd really appreciate it.

I don't think Sanctum is going to help the deck very much. You normally don't have many enchantments out, and if you do then you are already in a winning position. You mainly want to get Sterling + Starfield and then start recurring stuff, at which point you are pretty safe. First Rector activation is usually for something to keep you alive such as Deed or a game-changer like Humility/Doomwake, second priority is the Starfield.

This is close to what I've been using for mana:

3 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
7 Fetch (4 Verdant, 3 Windswept)

Could see a 7th basic though instead of the 3rd bayou. Ever since adding Parallax Wave and having Humility main, having 2 Plains is very good.

[Brael]

Also there are cases where you want to attack through Baleful Strix.

I'd still only run it if you have both land tutors -and- expect a lot of blade or DnT decks.

A key part of the BG builds I'm finding is the ability to Crop Rotation for Phyrexian Tower. I suppose you could always just run more towers too, but I like having the toolbox. Especially since removal on the power level of Path/StP isn't available in BG, as a result I can use the tutors to help with the removal situation using Maze of Ith.

I only have 1 Crop Rotation right now, but I'm trying hard to find a slot for a second copy. I like the land in theory for the SB as D&T is very popular and has become harder with the addition of 3 mana Thalia. The only question is if I would rather have it MB vs a Cavern or a basic.

[gth842s]

A key part of the BG builds I'm finding is the ability to Crop Rotation for Phyrexian Tower. I suppose you could always just run more towers too, but I like having the toolbox. Especially since removal on the power level of Path/StP isn't available in BG, as a result I can use the tutors to help with the removal situation using Maze of Ith.

I only have 1 Crop Rotation right now, but I'm trying hard to find a slot for a second copy. I like the land in theory for the SB as D&T is very popular and has become harder with the addition of 3 mana Thalia. The only question is if I would rather have it MB vs a Cavern or a basic.

Please continue to update with how CR tests out! I've been mulling it over for a while but it seems vulnerable to Daze / Force if you haven't got a Cabal Therapy. Seems like an amazing way to get extra mileage from Two Towers and / or Karakas though, and could be amazing in improving combo consistency for Sneak Fit!

[gth842s]

I'm looking for a little bit more advice on the following, thanks in advance!

1. Cabal Therapy against Eldrazi: I name Chalice on the play, but if they haven't dropped a Chalice and you still have a Therapy do you typically go for Mimic, Thought-Knot, or Smasher (and why)?

2. Cabal Therapy against Grixis Delver: I name Cabal Therapy on the play, but don't have a preference on the draw - I suppose Therapy still? What about later in the game?

3. How do you guys like to sideboard and Therapy against Aggro-Loam? There's a very talented player in my meta that runs it nearly every week.

[square_two]

I'm looking for a little bit more advice on the following, thanks in advance!

1. Cabal Therapy against Eldrazi: I name Chalice on the play, but if they haven't dropped a Chalice and you still have a Therapy do you typically go for Mimic, Thought-Knot, or Smasher (and why)?

If I have a valuable card in hard and the rest of it is kind of meh (like a sole GSZ) then I'll name Thought-Knot. Else Smasher usually gets the nod unless I can tell they would have already played it out. Most games against Eldrazi, you will lose due to not being able to contain a quick Smasher (or two).

[Arianrhod]

I'm looking for a little bit more advice on the following, thanks in advance!

1. Cabal Therapy against Eldrazi: I name Chalice on the play, but if they haven't dropped a Chalice and you still have a Therapy do you typically go for Mimic, Thought-Knot, or Smasher (and why)?

2. Cabal Therapy against Grixis Delver: I name Cabal Therapy on the play, but don't have a preference on the draw - I suppose Therapy still? What about later in the game?

3. How do you guys like to sideboard and Therapy against Aggro-Loam? There's a very talented player in my meta that runs it nearly every week.

1: Yeah, I almost always name Thought-Knot.

2: I name Brainstorm on the play, Therapy on the draw is a decent option though. Later on it just kind of depends on the board state, honestly.

3: For Therapy I typically name Knight of the Reliquary. Sideboarding depends on version, obviously. If you're on my Sneak list, though, I would look at the Surgicals and the To the Slaughters specifically.

[Brael]

Please continue to update with how CR tests out! I've been mulling it over for a while but it seems vulnerable to Daze / Force if you haven't got a Cabal Therapy. Seems like an amazing way to get extra mileage from Two Towers and / or Karakas though, and could be amazing in improving combo consistency for Sneak Fit!

I think I'm going to drop the Cavern of Souls. The next thing I'm going to try is adding a creature land. Mishra's Factory, Treetop Village, or Hissing Quagmire are the options. Factory is ETB untapped which lets it become a surprise blocker, but Village is colored mana and is the best body of the bunch. In what seems like a distant third due to the activation cost, there's Quagmire which is both colors of mana and can trade with anything. I think the first two options are the best. I'm going to give both of them a try and see which I like more.

Also, Ash Barrens hasn't been the best, I think it will work out better once I use it in some Blood Moon decks but switching it back to the 8th fetch is looking pretty appealing. In practice I'm never using the land cycling and it's just functioning as a drain on my basics. Using the cycling actively makes STE/Vet worse.